From nobody Sun Nov 1 08:23:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DF183A0B6F for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 08:23:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0vVoteZp8dcF for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 08:23:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x336.google.com (mail-wm1-x336.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::336]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79B253A0B77 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 08:23:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x336.google.com with SMTP id h22so7204419wmb.0 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 08:23:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ygRVvw4skKhorEa/9h31SaTtXjYunH0TK5EPpnWGcoE=; b=nB2TINsLNUnxtjT/qUul/ldaeY15aO4LDPMlP5JLQyUC5RtPNqw4jzrXexY3kBoaQP h7uCRaASnRN/UuSf3egBbAOuX1IedIsW/452xWDQ72wHd5xVFlUPI783/ARrbWpe5N1P 0U7h8lO2CDZZt4kXizMIiK5igSyNIgQoG7z6ta+G+cBfJmkMum+b34TKzNNNCMq6ax3p nmyTNPNm/WQueWGmuQ0Q3JmVrUf1hD6NXODHUJqVpug6oFYlgGQYmEcSiK4jUFztJ4FX b6wzYCx46aP2P4CAiEUCRbLxRZqJaDwYGCgLJXgzy0A45ra9R6brpa26dnl0d5I3WzXh mi5A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ygRVvw4skKhorEa/9h31SaTtXjYunH0TK5EPpnWGcoE=; b=b60hglz534Go+CgSUKo86/nHCKvdAdEWUC5NEqijIXXf1+DgVpVuDE2o99kEZLxavK rCE78qDV+nB+NX9Xgx4Ev49k7H4GCUPYPeSmMd8LbSXTLJXA+RVpF7gQG2Ei4visPIqJ 2DD8k31Mmgqer7YYiEbAM0l22BzUoRvzqg7oXO8u2TGIRukaKjZ3xVQKczHP1ThJevSS bzupxJLO0WGL+ArGgse21wz7e+HDYjcB6GSCiI15WDYj8oGd48hik9L4wiRpZe6dUJUn qotmG1/w4WKy9anfVLdQtRB81DWmyIqop0G56PP9cAf32roW3grswr4Voo1N6im0RW/2 O+9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531RmddT8rG8p+KGKHZmstIOTYhH6pMrxCtOwShMHmyvUA3Uh4+t YUPGSzJ5ID681IsTSC9Gjs6i0xB5BTgqZ8rGB//9zA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwn+qB1fP36VLs4p5cGAIFwQkPBRka2QoeTy9N5RyONJG4R78Ltbb7WuLxV0LWAaaVtxCrH87BubpwDiNlbc98= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:4b04:: with SMTP id y4mr1210698wma.93.1604247784472; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 08:23:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160209160818.12838.15929178240331409569@ietfa.amsl.com> <21362.1602538323@localhost> <0ABC7267-6534-44CD-9ACA-E4F568CD07AE@island-resort.com> <72B2AEEB-D6D0-4E59-A3DE-CCEF015A0B47@island-resort.com> <1CB50567-884D-4B46-926C-BA20A8A00AFB@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <1CB50567-884D-4B46-926C-BA20A8A00AFB@tzi.org> From: Ivaylo Petrov Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 17:22:38 +0100 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Martin Duke , Laurence Lundblade , draft-ietf-cose-x509@ietf.org, Michael Richardson , Cose Chairs Wg , The IESG , cose Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005358bd05b30e0bef" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] Martin Duke's No Objection on draft-ietf-cose-x509-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2020 16:23:09 -0000 --0000000000005358bd05b30e0bef Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, Carsten, for the suggestion! It sounds much better to me that way. I will look at the comments from other people now and hopefully submit a new version later today. On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 11:03 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: > > > > On 2020-10-31, at 21:56, Martin Duke wrote: > > > > I would be happy if it the paragraph in question was rewritten to be > clearer, perhaps using the words in the exchange between me and Michael. > Really, simply replacing the passive voice in the sentence with active > pretty much forces you to be clear about who is doing what. > > Like: > > Certificates obtained from any of these methods MUST still be validated. > =E2=9E=94 > Parties that intend to rely on the assertions made by a certificate > obtained from any of these methods still need to validate it. > > ? > > (Note that I changed the RFC 2119 MUST into a statement of fact, which is > orthogonal to the question of who the actor of the validation is.) > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > --0000000000005358bd05b30e0bef Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks, Carsten, for the suggestion! It sounds mu= ch better to me that way. I will look at the comments from other people now= and hopefully submit a new version later today.
<= div>
=


<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 11:03 PM Carst= en Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:<= br>


> On 2020-10-31, at 21:56, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I would be happy if it the paragraph in question was rewritten to be c= learer, perhaps using the words in the exchange between me and Michael. Rea= lly, simply replacing the passive voice in the sentence with active pretty = much forces you to be clear about who is doing what.

Like:

Certificates obtained from any of these methods MUST still be validated. =E2=9E=94
Parties that intend to rely on the assertions made by a certificate
obtained from any of these methods still need to validate it.

?

(Note that I changed the RFC 2119 MUST into a statement of fact, which is o= rthogonal to the question of who the actor of the validation is.)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

--0000000000005358bd05b30e0bef-- From nobody Sun Nov 1 10:28:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA5B43A0CD0 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:28:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n2cdzPJdoX1w for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:28:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x333.google.com (mail-wm1-x333.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::333]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A4F43A0CD3 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:28:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x333.google.com with SMTP id y21so1731413wmj.0 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 10:28:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=O7Uzd4i8q4twS747ocVzcjMCHPdqr49MllRotwFgQYI=; b=RuUR9RzScZB7Ddt6nWZPvzlFlgCf2XEPaq1ScTmzWSHDbX+zHgeE+gVwmBfwQuR+CY KbzlsH/qph6hQ6OnSphtWVj3uA0uetOgx44zIe3xb+CovZpYztPu2tR6n7IGqx4IFV/c rJrLEga/j6+GGdXAnmc/ed81hy72Xq93+J2FpkO1nMJ6P05vZXqYtS3cDxTBYoksZjrn G0Mn4hvuS0pC0GnyggxD6FqRaLdOCgjWLSqWfLxXzyrnCQc+Lj2RxFgSawSPwttGAQjT LjYl3lAe8IvQHbosHkcSAxCiMPo5kiJ69TwZDScY6BjouoL03Lnnk4P19GiSwiLPYaFK ZtFw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=O7Uzd4i8q4twS747ocVzcjMCHPdqr49MllRotwFgQYI=; b=KWWyjTsTjFiEDUIdcxi6CDQ/VHtvx4GpoHhn+bsfhpAFCCyTLZ1zB3zASiQiy2xZ1+ AWM8aT4EUMe6Eh3APpCzYMf13UKa3dLE5mRtMstSfQcn4MGeuK9fNeu1MF4yJzPuqRvJ OCQkDnE+RAB419Fj5PX3gwhCDGR3JTuoplLCfDZjAMp8IuYEsHzNseck3IPExczeFsZz ihgl+GlqFH+A6J+heK3GoiGx0II4kVf01kIBX9nJ18RkbzY7jVK181FDiWkpI0aM04ch JYDl+VwUa2gHaYYySJq3wb7jX0ZCw0XaDKl9aa5ZUt72u3NtxOMhLlLljbtf1S1F15Bi B2Hw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Go+gey6xg0UM/HZKhtiyN/7r0JCSjrAaWxfFHEsodbHtkqkW5 Kjd2bx1AMWfbsjB9LNElAcFuFB6QJReBJglbIeKZFZSoXi4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy7Mopa1wx60kOaOadH4KypUVdmVc+I2jH8lgYrOt8+0gL2HgRe0yMddFcg31JmKFnOeDk9+BhKNwDaUuIToXg= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c255:: with SMTP id b21mr14102124wmj.72.1604255301147; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 10:28:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Ivaylo Petrov Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 19:27:55 +0100 Message-ID: To: cose Cc: Cose Chairs Wg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005ab32205b30fcbc3" Archived-At: Subject: [COSE] X509 examples generation X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2020 18:28:25 -0000 --0000000000005ab32205b30fcbc3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear all, As you might have noticed, there have been a few questions about having examples for the x509 draft recently. Unfortunately, I do not think I will be able to generate those any time soon, so if anyone would be interested in generating some examples, that would be greatly appreciated. Please be sure to let me or the chairs know if you plan to do that. For now I will remove the existing misleading reference to the examples repository in order to close that issue. Best regards, Ivaylo --0000000000005ab32205b30fcbc3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear all,

As you= might have noticed, there have been a few questions about having examples = for the x509 draft recently. Unfortunately, I do not think I will be able t= o generate those any time soon, so if anyone would be interested in generat= ing some examples, that would be greatly appreciated. Please be sure to let= me or the chairs know if you plan to do=C2=A0that. For now I will remove t= he existing misleading reference to the examples repository in order to clo= se that issue.

Best regards,
Ivaylo
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
--0000000000005ab32205b30fcbc3-- From nobody Sun Nov 1 10:51:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77DFB3A0D0E for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:51:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DjVA1TDQ_2CO for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:51:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32b.google.com (mail-wm1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 940E13A0D09 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:51:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id d3so7408830wma.4 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 10:51:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=w+SErQBXfWgK0Vp9kFJVCQ6PTkvVfiAaYDjt5wmGqdc=; b=ghFNXj4ksZ6Oh4xNPnlp2dfNYIgK0b5L/kazXSOePOvm7sS8tIj+eYnSMXjG+2iGzO GjkATIkPze1zaNazQb46WGLXB9vnY0y1+A3T/qYKgKKfkwoscauIPuy2MO9feRNBdM+U p3VXNXEU68t1TcQSxGoLcVB+vei4EiYaKcbTfXRFAboU2sZ7E/zZobGUO4Nik9JWiyfk 1ES+IGrvQzROUBSYCtiiqEd6x7zxUgO2iVY6nQz0SCgALtPtk7bSAWMzLkTD1A/6NFvi HTUO5+XnN2xElEtVvaPyDZfJZPnS+eBtnJX+wqG/kzk4bSBUc+JzB3JsoP/cUZorqK7k N2Mg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=w+SErQBXfWgK0Vp9kFJVCQ6PTkvVfiAaYDjt5wmGqdc=; b=RjDHZ3is5rUjgNsXu1nLhD01cylzu86w6IJKReg3YPLYD8opOZfX7tDLcm+yKgR3zi TSSD+TZ4Xvz/D6pLVBzF5qc/k16rzSdqauDuVRlmsFzH/6USNVdprcK95LlJl6TNt+pr 9W9zDrGo2958qrcaqYD0Lpb1XVMs4GuBnkDnxeD0SNf3WiJiOlrxPbnZtv5LpEIr/N7e plWCKiWOB50q9z3+YrygYHLn2P53n92rUvHkiLv2isvwB+qTjiBFYUUPMARVNpMxegdf K7iAKOP6JPpz+m0bhbFuYE2Uj7NB+acCh8uwTqSvH4J5wsCaFOzwcqWINyXRCpP1UbGM 2Q1w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533HFxmTDtyMv1Gl0L8g63LDZpbzgASV1Pb7AFCxP2n2Y9GgcIVb PvryKQrJGVWJZ8zWFfP1DAR3dsMDk7HXf+v/E9hxbA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz3iWtaL93QldZnYLCBfCDEqF+3wfnJoHb4JoIo6jCmRyvSLhFcknFvXkgsMR9QYZFQpVGURonS2c+E7hrXH/w= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:608:: with SMTP id o8mr13687681wmm.86.1604256682619; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 10:51:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160334908054.28746.4797740329412955971@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <160334908054.28746.4797740329412955971@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Ivaylo Petrov Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 19:50:56 +0100 Message-ID: To: Murray Kucherawy Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-cose-x509@ietf.org, Cose Chairs Wg , cose Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b24b6b05b3101d2b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] Murray Kucherawy's No Objection on draft-ietf-cose-x509-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2020 18:51:27 -0000 --000000000000b24b6b05b3101d2b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello Murray, Thank you for your review! Please find my answers below. On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 8:44 AM Murray Kucherawy via Datatracker < noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > Murray Kucherawy has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-cose-x509-07: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cose-x509/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I would like to add my thanks to Jim Schaad for this document, and for all > of > his other contributions to the IETF. > > -- > > Section 1 includes a GitHub URL where the reader can find examples. Is > this > acceptable as a permanent reference? > [IP]: Currently that reference has been removed as there were no examples related to this draft. Otherwise I would have had to check what exactly is our policy about this as the repository is controlled by the COSE WG, but github not. Section 2: > > * "... will evaluate and process of X.509 certificates ..." -- remove "of"? > [IP]: Done. > * "... and be configured use ..." -- add "to"? > [IP]: Done. > > * The first paragraph of the "x5t" bullet seems to have a couple of > sentences > smashed together at the end. > [IP]: I tried to make it easier to read [1], please let me know if that is what you meant. > * Has the note about the AD Review comments in this section been resolved? > [IP]: My understanding is that unless there are new comments on the topic, for now we just mandate the support of 'SHA-256'. [1]: https://github.com/cose-wg/X509/commit/515aa080642ab13710429f02245c9c51c297e306 --000000000000b24b6b05b3101d2b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Murray,

=
Thank you for your review! Please find my answers below.

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 8:44 AM Murray Kucherawy via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
Murray Kucherawy has entere= d the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-cose-x509-07: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s= tatement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-co= se-x509/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to add my thanks to Jim Schaad for this document, and for all = of
his other contributions to the IETF.

--

Section 1 includes a GitHub URL where the reader can find examples.=C2=A0 I= s this
acceptable as a permanent reference?

[IP]: Currently that reference has been removed as there were no e= xamples related to this draft. Otherwise I would have had to check what exa= ctly is our policy about this as the repository is controlled by the COSE W= G, but github not.

Section 2:

* "... will evaluate and process of X.509 certificates ..." -- re= move "of"?

[I= P]: Done.

=C2=A0
* "... and be configured use ..." -- add "to"?

[IP]: Done.
=C2= =A0

* The first paragraph of the "x5t" bullet seems to have a couple = of sentences
smashed together at the end.

[IP]: I tried to make it easier to read [1], please let me know if th= at is what you meant.
=C2=A0
* Has the note about the AD Review comments in this section been resolved?<= br>

[IP]: My understanding is th= at unless there are new comments on the topic, for now we just mandate the = support of 'SHA-256'.

[1]: https://github.com/cose-wg/X509/commit/515aa080642a= b13710429f02245c9c51c297e306
--000000000000b24b6b05b3101d2b-- From nobody Sun Nov 1 10:51:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CABAE3A0D09 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:51:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pKLn925YQmH4 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:51:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x432.google.com (mail-wr1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A35773A0D06 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:51:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x432.google.com with SMTP id 33so1277608wrl.7 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 10:51:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0KT5qLMnQ2eVc2JUfhom1AOeAdbQeBMnmfTi75zS1E0=; b=NUTQxKzXnaGwx1gclgdBbMRZdc8ip9LDIqtvZbpxU3YAeVZ4nOej/Q1tGstwSwNO6j ft4V7qkekJB1H9jt0kvbaFPb+IP+zj8wrllf7JoxAgwa3TnDofvu6rhBuNh6I5I/nE6U dSa//224+KLPHahIA5C4YRKqbWZQ90bBfV228joQ7hAM+NrVvAzLmRa8o1prZjX9Wwzl QNhMSMwYczpe+61yfVnwtqm4Np1mFC2iXCzkQgZf5l45HCxW+Y7SdE0B6CBcCSCsojmc Gcoh0T0RCvnfKqL5IhcBO3hWTF0Gxua2ZVz+BSReHzH+8PpVPqO17mrB8uxpAsI1li2q MFRA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0KT5qLMnQ2eVc2JUfhom1AOeAdbQeBMnmfTi75zS1E0=; b=JsPSXYU66oW5VMXx8b97cdhjgNdNPfUY4GFAl2J7UJIPmlsc9Cd4azTc9R0UF0S9zi 3CcmAYBSVsOhMvHmQh/WKhF5PlBJypwgcGsqERzYbtItiWPY8twDArIG5dNzpk8HtNw2 46nM6v0NuLRbQi8PpXd/d46witzICkPHmbEZrSRQkh3rH+aEn7hBt6JzVRVuI7U6DVPe Tx5yF3hUWgKOzKPJZGA6Vjt/LKluxtRhKxqHNo5912HeZhVOWQ1mQFyHu9zWwSDfiaLi DSuWBHU/e2M1FVlFWUY6P8d3QkQpeaIDCQCrpaYIz1SwnCK0fdh2v9fEyQF7zIcVrrLN 7zxQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53086pHfyUGGyQUvm6TLhdV6VXMEGbmhA+xiywxpp2+Y05kv+kd7 PLL0OzU8Um1mFgBI3MDynBOTpCqMJ31pnSNzrOV0FQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwZoE7uceVChSvv4uBnFRrNulCfItD/0MqsUaxGOTJTA44x8RA9FM7Gv0PvusexvcLQS93l+yVw1zySiHwBtQE= X-Received: by 2002:adf:f948:: with SMTP id q8mr15183664wrr.323.1604256709003; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 10:51:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9284FE68-45D9-4282-8526-78914C3E3043@island-resort.com> <20201022152120.GA39170@kduck.mit.edu> <20201022191223.GH39170@kduck.mit.edu> <6A069E4A-C284-4245-B4DE-ADF707ACDC30@island-resort.com> <20201022211804.GI39170@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: From: Ivaylo Petrov Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 19:51:22 +0100 Message-ID: To: Laurence Lundblade Cc: Benjamin Kaduk , cose Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000044e65b05b3101f2f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] draft-ietf-cose-x509-07 and x5u header X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2020 18:51:54 -0000 --00000000000044e65b05b3101f2f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Laurence, I am confident this discussion has been useful for the understanding of everyone, so thank you for starting it! Do not hesitate to suggest text if you believe anything needs to be explained in more details regarding why some attributes need to be protected and why others do not. Thanks, Ivaylo On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 9:02 PM Laurence Lundblade wrote: > OK. Got it. Thanks for writing it out. > > I think that means identification of an end-entity cert must usually be > covered by the signature. Since x5t and x5chain identify end-entity certs= , > they should be protected headers. From an attackers point of view the > unprotected headers can be manipulated to the same result as an x5u if it > were unprotected. > > It is spelled out clearly here in Key Identification in RFC 7517 > (JWS). Seems like > cose-x509 needs similar text. > > It seems like you could combine a protected x5t with an unprotected x5u t= o > get the same result. Fetch the cert with x5u, then make sure it is right > with x5t. > > I spent some time reading CMS, RFC 5652. It does not seem to address this= . > The SignerIdentifier which identifies the end-entity cert does not seem > to be covered by the signature. This seems like an omission in CMS. > > If I=E2=80=99d read RFC 7515 before I read cose-x509, I would have been m= uch less > confused and caused a lot less trouble here. > > LL > > > > On Oct 22, 2020, at 2:18 PM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 01:56:58PM -0700, Laurence Lundblade wrote: > > Below... > > On Oct 22, 2020, at 12:12 PM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > > Hi Laurence, > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 11:56:24AM -0700, Laurence Lundblade wrote: > > > On Oct 22, 2020, at 8:21 AM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 11:40:33AM -0700, Laurence Lundblade wrote: > > I=E2=80=99m trying to understand why the x5u header must be a COSE protec= ted > header parameter and in general what the expected use of this header is. > > My understanding is that it the relying party that is validating the cert > chain is the one doing the HTTP fetching. > > In the case of application/pkix-cert, then only one DER cert is returned > and that is the end-entity cert. > > My expectation for the way this would work is: > - The relying party would use HTTP to with the x5u URL to fetch the > end-entity cert > - The relying party would have a trust anchor previously configured > - The certs in the chain between the end-entity are either already posses= s > by the relying party or are in the x5bag header > - Then it is just a straight forward chain formation and validation. > > In this use, there is no requirement for security of the URL or for use o= f > TLS to fetch it. All the necessary security is provided by standard chain > validation. > > So why is there a requirement that the header be protected and that > TLS/DTLS be used? > > Further, wouldn't the header protection be a form of self signing since > the private key used to sign the header corresponds to the public key tha= t > is being fetched? > > > It is in some sense a form of self-signing, yes. But TLS (or equivalent) > is still needed for fetching the certificate in order to verify that the > *certificate* received is the one intended, not a different certificate > that wraps the same public key. There are plenty of attacks if you swap > out the certificate for one with different key usage, SAN, etc. > You might argue that it's hard to get a different cert (with > attacker-controlled contents) for the same public key if the attacker > doesn't have access to the corresponding private key, but that's not a ve= ry > reliable security control. > > > Hi Ben, > > It seems like your are interpreting the x5u header to be for the fetching > of a single validated end-entity certificate. Some remote service did the > > > I do not believe I am doing so. The TLS (or other) authentication of the > URI target does not inherently stand in for local validation of the > certificate and chain. (There may be particular special cases arranged b= y > policy where it does, but not in the general case.) > > I am saying that you can have multiple certificates, call them A and B, > that certify the same public key K. Knowing K, you can validate the > message signature, protected attributes, etc., including the URI used to > fetch the certificate. However, if the URI used to fetch the certificate > uses a scheme that does not provide integrity protection or server > authentication, then the party dereferencing the URI could obtain > certificate A when the message originator intended for certificate B to b= e > used for validation. It is not too hard to imagine situations where both= A > and B can be used to build valid chains that end at root CAs trusted by t= he > message recipient, and thus the insecure certificate fetch is (1) > undetected and (2) causes the message to be interpreted differently than > intended by the originator. As I mentioned originally, A and B could hav= e > different X.509 extensions, (extended) key usage, subject information, > etc., so there is a lot of room for the "interpreted differently" to be > attacked. > > > But isn=E2=80=99t this a problem with any and all cert chain construction= and > validation? If this is an issue, then x5bag and x5chain should be > protected headers. > > > No; once you have a (EE) cert, you have Issuer information to find the > next cert in the chain. With just a COSE message you don't have that. > > Seems like the real problem is CA operation. CA=E2=80=99s shouldn=E2=80= =99t be creating > alternate certs for real keys that result in issues like this. > > > Most of the time, for most scenarios. But this is not a reliable securit= y > control. > > So it still seems to me that the primary reason for an x5u that is a > protected header parameter and obtained with DTLS is so you don=E2=80=99t= have to > validate the end-entity on the constrained device. Presumably you already > have a DTLS stack, so you are almost getting the validated cert for no > extra code. > > > I disagree. > > > > cert chain validation. You and other folks probably were involved in some > ace work that I was not involved with to know that. I don=E2=80=99t think= it says > that clearly in cose-x509, though I can now see how you can triangulate > your way to that understanding. If x5u is to work like this, it seems a > lot of addition to security considerations is needed. > > RFC 2585 does not work this way. It assumes the chain validation is done > locally (see RFC 2585 Security Considerations) and that there is no need > for any transport layer security. This seems like a perfectly useful and > good thing to do and to support in cose-x509. This is what I outlined in > bullet points above. > > > With RFC 2585 you know enough information about the *certificate* that yo= u > want that you have what is (supposed to be, at least) a unique identifier > for the *certificate*. In the "x5u" case you only have information about= a > *key*, not a certificate. > > > I=E2=80=99m not understanding how x5u is about a key, not about a certifi= cate. > > > The key is the only thing tying the COSE message to the certificate; othe= r > information in the certificate (e.g., SubjectPublicKeyInfo) is not > available when processing the COSE message. Let me try to walk through > some steps: > > You have a COSE message; say it's a signed message. The recipient has th= e > (plain)text, the actual signature bytes, and the parameters, including x5= u. > If the recipient verifies the signature, they know that the x5u URI is th= e > one intended by the holder of the private key that made the signature. (= In > order to validate the signature, they presumably have to obtain the > certificate first, but we're getting there.) The only thing that ties th= e > received message to the certificate obtained by dereferencing the URI is > the signature in the message itself. That signature does not contain or > include any attributes of the certificate containing the public key > corresponding to the private key that made the signature; there is no > SubjectPublicKeyInfo or similar in the COSE message. The only thing > needed to validate the signature is the public key in question. In > principle that public key could be obtained in many ways (it could have > been included as a COSE_Key for that matter), but in the x5u case, we're > supposed to get that public key from a certificate found at a particular > URI. But the way that I tie the message+signature to the certificate is = by > using the public key in the certificate to validate the signature on the > message. So, it is the public key that is what I use to find the > certificate that is associated with the signature, but there is not a > unique mapping from public key to certificate, in general. In order for > the signing party to be confident that the recipient interprets the > signature properly, there has to be a chain of custody from the > message+signature to the intended certificate. Using coap-not-s to obtai= n > the certificate breakas the chain of custody -- in extreme cases the > message could appear to have been generated by a completely different > entity than it actually was! > > -Ben > > > > When I think about implementing cose-x509, I can see several options. > > 1. Just implement x5chain. Fail if x5chain is not present. Only need code > for chain validation. No need for chain formation. > > 2. Just implement x5bag and x5t. Fail if x5t and x5bag are not present. > Now you need code for chain validation and chain formation. > > 3. Just implement x5u. Fail if x5u is not present. All you need is some > ASN.1 parsing and DTLS code. No chain validation or formation needed. > > 4. Implement all, with a priority order like first try x5chain, then try > x5bag/x5t, finally x5u. > > 5. Various combinations of the above > > > I believe that there is some intent to use x5t for cases where the > certificates in question are already in local storage on both parties, so > the thumbprint is just a shortand reference for "use this one [that you > already have]"; no need for the x5bag. > > > Yes, agreed. Might not even need any chain formation code if the hierarch= y > is simple and certs are pre-distributed. > > [Probably more comments possible here, but I didn't think very hard.] > > -Ben > > > LL > > > _______________________________________________ > COSE mailing list > COSE@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose > > > _______________________________________________ > COSE mailing list > COSE@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose > --00000000000044e65b05b3101f2f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Laurence,

= I am confident this discussion has been useful for the understanding of eve= ryone, so thank you for starting it! Do not hesitate to suggest text if you= believe anything needs to be explained in more details regarding why some = attributes need to be protected and why others do not.

Thanks,
Ivaylo
=

On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 9:02 PM Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> wr= ote:
OK. Go= t it. Thanks for writing it out.

I think that means= identification of an end-entity cert must usually be covered by the signat= ure. Since x5t and x5chain identify end-entity certs, they should be protec= ted headers. From an attackers point of view the unprotected headers can be= manipulated to the same result as an x5u if it were unprotected.

It is spelled out clearly here in Key Identification in RF= C 7517=C2=A0(JWS). Seems like cose-x509 needs similar text.
<= br>
It seems like you could combine a protected x5t with an unpro= tected x5u to get the same result. Fetch the cert with x5u, then make sure = it is right with x5t.

I spent some time reading CM= S, RFC 5652. It does not seem to address this. The=C2=A0SignerIdentifier=C2= =A0which identifies the end-entity cert does not seem to be covered by the = signature. This seems like an omission in CMS.

If = I=E2=80=99d read RFC 7515 before I read cose-x509, I would have been much l= ess confused and caused a lot less trouble here.

L= L



On Oct 22, 2020, at 2:18 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 22,= 2020 at 01:56:58PM -0700, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
Below...

On Oct 22, 2020, at 12:12 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:

H= i Laurence,

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 11:56:24AM -0700, Laurence Lundb= lade wrote:

On O= ct 22, 2020, at 8:21 AM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:

On Mon, Oct 19, 202= 0 at 11:40:33AM -0700, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
I=E2=80=99m trying to understand why the x5u header must be a COSE prote= cted header parameter and in general what the expected use of this header i= s.

My understanding is that it the relying party that is validating = the cert chain is the one doing the HTTP fetching.

In the case of ap= plication/pkix-cert, then only one DER cert is returned and that is the end= -entity cert.

My expectation for the way this would work is:
- Th= e relying party would use HTTP to with the x5u URL to fetch the end-entity = cert
- The relying party would have a trust anchor previously configured=
- The certs in the chain between the end-entity are either already poss= ess by the relying party or are in the x5bag header
- Then it is just a = straight forward chain formation and validation.=C2=A0

= In this use, there is no requirement for security of the URL or for use of = TLS to fetch it. All the necessary security is provided by standard chain v= alidation.

So why is there a requirement that the header be protecte= d and that TLS/DTLS be used?

Further, wouldn't the header protec= tion be a form of self signing since the private key used to sign the heade= r corresponds to the public key that is being fetched?

= It is in some sense a form of self-signing, yes.=C2=A0 But TLS (or equivale= nt)
is still needed for fetching the certificate in order to verify that= the
*certificate* received is the one intended, not a different certifi= cate
that wraps the same public key.=C2=A0 There are plenty of attacks i= f you swap
out the certificate for one with different key usage, SAN, et= c.
You might argue that it's hard to get a different cert (with
a= ttacker-controlled contents) for the same public key if the attacker
doe= sn't have access to the corresponding private key, but that's not a= very
reliable security control.

Hi Ben,=C2=A0=

It seems like your are interpreting the x5u header to be for= the fetching
of a single validated end-entity certificate. Some remote = service did the

I do not believe I am doing so.=C2=A0 T= he TLS (or other) authentication of the
URI target does not inherently s= tand in for local validation of the
certificate and chain. =C2=A0(There = may be particular special cases arranged by
policy where it does, but no= t in the general case.)

I am saying that you can have multiple certi= ficates, call them A and B,
that certify the same public key K.=C2=A0 Kn= owing K, you can validate the
message signature, protected attributes, e= tc., including the URI used to
fetch the certificate.=C2=A0 However, if = the URI used to fetch the certificate
uses a scheme that does not provid= e integrity protection or server
authentication, then the party derefere= ncing the URI could obtain
certificate A when the message originator int= ended for certificate B to be
used for validation.=C2=A0 It is not too h= ard to imagine situations where both A
and B can be used to build valid = chains that end at root CAs trusted by the
message recipient, and thus t= he insecure certificate fetch is (1)
undetected and (2) causes the messa= ge to be interpreted differently than
intended by the originator.=C2=A0 = As I mentioned originally, A and B could have
different X.509 extensions= , (extended) key usage, subject information,
etc., so there is a lot of = room for the "interpreted differently" to be
attacked.

But isn=E2=80=99t this a problem with any and all cert chain c= onstruction and validation?=C2=A0 If this is an issue, then x5bag and x5cha= in should be protected headers.

No; once you have a (EE) cert, you= have Issuer information to find the
next cert in the chain.=C2=A0 With jus= t a COSE message you don't have that.

Seems like the real = problem is CA operation. CA=E2=80=99s shouldn=E2=80=99t be creating alterna= te certs for real keys that result in issues like this.
Most of th= e time, for most scenarios.=C2=A0 But this is not a reliable security
contro= l.

So it still seems to me that the primary reason for an x5u = that is a protected header parameter and obtained with DTLS is so you don= =E2=80=99t have to validate the end-entity on the constrained device. Presu= mably you already have a DTLS stack, so you are almost getting the validate= d cert for no extra code.

I disagree.
=


cert chain validation. You a= nd other folks probably were involved in some
ace work that I was not in= volved with to know that. I don=E2=80=99t think it says
that clearly in = cose-x509, though I can now see how you can triangulate
your way to that= understanding. If x5u is to work like this, it seems a
lot of addition = to security considerations is needed.

RFC 2585 does not work this wa= y. It assumes the chain validation is done locally (see RFC 2585 Security C= onsiderations) and that there is no need for any transport layer security. = This seems like a perfectly useful and good thing to do and to support in c= ose-x509.=C2=A0 This is what I outlined in bullet points above.

With RFC 2585 you know enough information about the *certificate* = that you
want that you have what is (supposed to be, at least) a unique = identifier
for the *certificate*.=C2=A0 In the "x5u" case you = only have information about a
*key*, not a certificate.
=
I=E2=80=99m not understanding how x5u is about a key, not about a certi= ficate.

The key is the only thing tying the COSE message to the ce= rtificate; other
information in the certificate (e.g., SubjectPublicKeyInfo)= is not
available when processing the COSE message.=C2=A0 Let me try to walk= through
some steps:

You have a COSE message; say it'= s a signed message.=C2=A0 The recipient has the
<= span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-v= ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star= t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;t= ext-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">(plain)text, the actual sign= ature bytes, and the parameters, including x5u.
<= span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-v= ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star= t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;t= ext-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">If the recipient verifies th= e signature, they know that the x5u URI is the
one intended by the holder of= the private key that made the signature. =C2=A0(In
order to validate the si= gnature, they presumably have to obtain the
certificate first, but we're= getting there.) =C2=A0The only thing that ties the
received message to the = certificate obtained by dereferencing the URI is
= the signature in the messag= e itself.=C2=A0 That signature does not contain or
include any attributes of= the certificate containing the public key
corresponding to the private key = that made the signature; there is no
SubjectPublicKeyInfo or similar in the= COSE message.=C2=A0 The only thing
needed to validate the signature is th= e public key in question.=C2=A0 In
principle that public key could be obtain= ed in many ways (it could have
been included as a COSE_Key for that matter),= but in the x5u case, we're
supposed to get that public key from a certi= ficate found at a particular
URI.=C2=A0 But the way that I tie the message+s= ignature to the certificate is by
using the public key in the certificate to= validate the signature on the
message.=C2=A0 So, it is the public key that = is what I use to find the
certificate that is associated with the signature,= but there is not a
unique mapping from public key to certificate, in genera= l.=C2=A0 In order for
the signing party to be confident that the recipient i= nterprets the
signature properly, there has to be a chain of custody from th= e
message+signature to the intended certificate.=C2=A0 Using coap-not-s to o= btain
the certificate breakas the chain of custody -- in extreme cases the
me= ssage could appear to have been generated by a completely different<= br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-var= iant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;= text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex= t-decoration:none">entity t= han it actually was!

-Ben



When I think about implementing= cose-x509, I can see several options.

1. Just implement x5chain. Fa= il if x5chain is not present. Only need code for chain validation. No need = for chain formation.

2. Just implement x5bag and x5t.=C2=A0 Fail if = x5t and x5bag are not present. Now you need code for chain validation and c= hain formation.

3. Just implement x5u. Fail if x5u is not present. A= ll you need is some ASN.1 parsing and DTLS code. No chain validation or for= mation needed.

4. Implement all, with a priority order like first tr= y x5chain, then try x5bag/x5t, finally x5u.

5. Various combinations = of the above

I believe that there is some intent to use= x5t for cases where the
certificates in question are already in local s= torage on both parties, so
the thumbprint is just a shortand reference f= or "use this one [that you
already have]"; no need for the x5b= ag.

Yes, agreed. Might not even need any chain formatio= n code if the hierarchy is simple and certs are pre-distributed.

[Probably more comments possible here, but I didn= 9;t think very hard.]

-Ben

LL


_____= __________________________________________
COSE mailing list
COSE@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/cose

= _______________________________________________
COSE mailing list
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--00000000000044e65b05b3101f2f-- From nobody Sun Nov 1 10:53:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F323A0D03 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:52:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QqJtuac-lQ8R for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:52:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32d.google.com (mail-wm1-x32d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 899AA3A0D09 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:52:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32d.google.com with SMTP id 13so7374252wmf.0 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 10:52:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VecUmM573GOjLnTygPdkUHmnPH3M+0fjcxKHvr8kBdE=; b=dHiFjBjBBvk9aUkwMrOEQwBMdtAWCjaYP3dl6EhHH38MBpxwg4qt11KNNVfwG+up9t /IEsHQVTMXo17UDT71B567wmbsBkG9Y7djLYNNHxlCCeylHz9x2lvcN8lN/WLZyL2Pv5 xNoC+3X9rx/2zEG84lV+a822+YygxyMvO1OaQ1RNDtX0ZVBeDnRI8FsCdmv8t15X9swC 1MZ+Y9aAkHsR0n56+Mkcx4tGndoMnYzyaaE7jIkW/QX9K6OdgEQdcFYVh4b/8RMZTBZS /DnH/EYtELxTzshZYt4o6BllAq3/nMS0J5U2A6E3RF2GxF7+ST0kY4k020vzIM4N1jFS Fjzg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VecUmM573GOjLnTygPdkUHmnPH3M+0fjcxKHvr8kBdE=; b=qoRgYvO2UGuE+TtWD2SUEMDbxt66dzwCSsishEk9+Ove6rKhHWDpVQX/Pk251YkdKg CQBo5zZYzfUPfv1Qd1ohEYhX0P0KPEkq3Ywb2jH6xLT54bB7EGS47AhUrOjQufaYJrNj 57XZ1QaZPqzxAxxOm1N0t+1l8d9hr4dLnBO8vDTAhUX+aCZTHBTwc/YynTJhJx+xV0Hl n0ZpFeIkh0fJ55/9CuoS8iB5f+bNOjbIoQZizFWu3SukE2WvuDbmglrqZ0D22MLcZkQd L2A6+ZkbGiH5zSPLRhxXPtFxeUBZagNaVsRWGRKJJtnfFX6Cpo//mVTu+19/hNKwhi8f 0fgw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531clDt0Pm+pBfZ4jk98UtvWiyiwH6iHtJWTfuuNT1USjD5zBioo NaJ32Qf2hCM6dKbUFwBxJux02Ft25Pxaus91QzzdJBd1d3Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzAwYntTVN8HC7fOH1ePSkphkUVInYXjISm4+JjQpKpFIGIERLR9hFq66C1haQi+HfL9wE7KgDepHtnE010nb8= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c255:: with SMTP id b21mr14187142wmj.72.1604256774885; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 10:52:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160314506078.20558.15385106097623388280@ietfa.amsl.com> <26102.1603156521@localhost> <38B4F6C0-6F7E-46DF-A1B7-24D6E83BFE92@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <38B4F6C0-6F7E-46DF-A1B7-24D6E83BFE92@tzi.org> From: Ivaylo Petrov Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 19:52:28 +0100 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Michael Richardson , iot-directorate@ietf.org, Last Call , draft-ietf-cose-x509.all@ietf.org, cose Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000321ee105b3102332" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] [Last-Call] Iotdir telechat review of draft-ietf-cose-x509-07 X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2020 18:52:59 -0000 --000000000000321ee105b3102332 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Carsten, Thank you for this review! I have asked if anyone would be willing to generate the examples for this draft, but for the time being I have removed the paragraph about this. As for the discussion about bag vs some other term, I believe I see your point, but my understanding from this thread [1] is that bag is a well defined concept and we could still use it here. [1]: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cose/qYkms2KEZQbfJtBKRoFnaGU7ILE= / -- Best regards, Ivaylo On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 1:43 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2020-10-20, at 03:15, Michael Richardson wrote= : > > > > I believe we use the term bag because it is permissible for a certifica= te > > artifact to appear more than once. Stupid maybe, but permissible. > > > > I think that some systems/libaries considered the Issuer/Subject to be > the > > key for indexing the set, and then they got confused if there was more > than > > one certificate in the bag. The additional object used a different > signature > > and/or hash. At least, I have some dim memory of some situation being > > described to me. I think that the names of the guilty parties were > withheld. > > I think we have a different perception of what =E2=80=9Cis=E2=80=9D means= . > In my shopping bag, there *is* a difference between having one or two > yoghurts in there. > In the x5bag, having the same certificate twice is exactly equivalent to > having it once. > So it =E2=80=9Cis=E2=80=9D a (non-empty) set, not a bag, even if the *rep= resentation* (as > an array, with a special case for the singleton) can actually have > duplicates. > > Given the semantics, the question how one =E2=80=9Cfinds=E2=80=9D things = in that set is > more of an implementation question. I don=E2=80=99t think offering this = as a > multimap(*) with some arbitrarily chosen map key is flexible enough. > Normally, a simple iterator (so you get to see any and all of the element= s) > will be the best solution, because the implementation cannot know what th= e > application-specific validation process is looking for, and we are talkin= g > about a very small set. > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > (*) Cannot be a map, as there is no guarantee of uniqueness of any key. > > --000000000000321ee105b3102332 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Carsten,

Than= k you for this review! I have asked if anyone would be willing to generate = the examples for this draft, but for the time being I have removed the para= graph about this. As for the discussion about bag vs some other term, I bel= ieve I see your point, but my understanding from this thread [1] is that ba= g is a well defined concept and we could still use it here.
<= br>
[1]:=C2=A0https://mailarchive.= ietf.org/arch/msg/cose/qYkms2KEZQbfJtBKRoFnaGU7ILE/

<= /div>
= --
Best regards,
Ivaylo

On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 1:= 43 PM Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
On 2020-10-20, at 03:15, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>= ; wrote:
>
> I believe we use the term bag because it is permissible for a certific= ate
> artifact to appear more than once. Stupid maybe, but permissible.
>
> I think that some systems/libaries considered the Issuer/Subject to be= the
> key for indexing the set, and then they got confused if there was more= than
> one certificate in the bag.=C2=A0 The additional object used a differe= nt signature
> and/or hash.=C2=A0 At least, I have some dim memory of some situation = being
> described to me.=C2=A0 I think that the names of the guilty parties we= re withheld.

I think we have a different perception of what =E2=80=9Cis=E2=80=9D means.<= br> In my shopping bag, there *is* a difference between having one or two yoghu= rts in there.
In the x5bag, having the same certificate twice is exactly equivalent to ha= ving it once.
So it =E2=80=9Cis=E2=80=9D a (non-empty) set, not a bag, even if the *repre= sentation* (as an array, with a special case for the singleton) can actuall= y have duplicates.

Given the semantics, the question how one =E2=80=9Cfinds=E2=80=9D things in= that set is more of an implementation question.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t thin= k offering this as a multimap(*) with some arbitrarily chosen map key is fl= exible enough.=C2=A0 Normally, a simple iterator (so you get to see any and= all of the elements) will be the best solution, because the implementation= cannot know what the application-specific validation process is looking fo= r, and we are talking about a very small set.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

(*) Cannot be a map, as there is no guarantee of uniqueness of any key.

--000000000000321ee105b3102332-- From nobody Sun Nov 1 10:53:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58A473A0D4A for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:53:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e-IBLca0bS8B for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:53:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42e.google.com (mail-wr1-x42e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D1FA3A0D34 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:53:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id k10so10732440wrw.13 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 10:53:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=th1F6bQQOpnXRwpnVx/G+u9hzWSQgYH3ZJgVkQe5+wQ=; b=bOqr5BRbWrXZTqvNa0oVwu+P6RSGPwutQdFiWobgkks7bguXc0ZPLqYMTjavKd0qGm Z4c+pdPWIgoDx2u2ofKwapct/vZBX6ibfI+w04tcrloMJilDn1VAur5p7ri/0YJy6p6x p9WiYQU/Y7zyeWGd8S5XI+srMGwpvkpLvjfnDuLDbVuHdxVrVZnewlovIh5UGcWiKqaJ V4WNrLMiaCKNcBhKxW3reeMStGgtWXRsVlspEs9E5nqL/ICk5hDTBAvvaywc8K5JiuYK eWisozZXOqxLiJiW2PQd/4MOVBClVxAqgYPjSNwGT/KA4pupo44L02V0eXywg1QrmqK4 It4A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=th1F6bQQOpnXRwpnVx/G+u9hzWSQgYH3ZJgVkQe5+wQ=; b=i3Cxw4uC++pPYSYeLBsVc85JSK7LFJaEI46/kEqcUyaE7KYxghwpySXladnsrzG20e rhtEjOaKiXijoKG//xeQ1GK65JGt9WM0OXNdeW09/R7IMTx6Ku3gs9Cs3KJBoozHuLWR l3CPh7mBnzrAq/sblQCO5RcD6SSVof/zrzGlhSzQN4Wo2QInq83+8wEwr6ILZlxD4MG6 vbBTgYSHFewA6jPpm22K7D2nXU6MdjzGjmvQeTO3TpVHHA7lQwxvIaKRNMgqlsIvisMH tuUx1Y7MQHpR0yQBvKMk/pr19cyGkw1u9QST8axiZlL7dw2GzL7dqBkCef+QeFRldh44 HnkQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5323oieGwRnPp7V3Ff93PQh7T9iLWhmM6iaGy4aOf+EL4dqT6Jki g03A6trex36zgalnqMlTOj1EkR9Wq2rArYqE92kviQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxh1a5th5LOf2QDuejHPLlI4HYiq5zuTdMfxeol8u1zqllotb19bZdizGYqZYj69iIr0FGFGUVgRn8WpEYn0SM= X-Received: by 2002:adf:b1d6:: with SMTP id r22mr15183014wra.136.1604256818901; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 10:53:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160313511018.7246.11234492090901667420@ietfa.amsl.com> <20201022152329.GB39170@kduck.mit.edu> <5502.1603385980@localhost> In-Reply-To: From: Ivaylo Petrov Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 19:53:13 +0100 Message-ID: To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" Cc: Michael Richardson , Benjamin Kaduk , Cose Chairs Wg , cose , The IESG , "draft-ietf-cose-x509@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d1cc0905b31025b5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] Robert Wilton's No Objection on draft-ietf-cose-x509-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2020 18:53:50 -0000 --000000000000d1cc0905b31025b5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Rob, Thank you for your review! My understanding from [1] is that we can have duplicates and I made that clear in the text (I am still processing some other comments before I publish a new version). [1]: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cose/VLv2E6wcGkC4YY-vFMRxnEAXrXo/ -- Best regards, Ivaylo On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 7:20 PM Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michael Richardson > > Sent: 22 October 2020 18:00 > > To: Benjamin Kaduk ; Ivaylo Petrov ; Rob > > Wilton (rwilton) ; Cose Chairs Wg > chairs@ietf.org>; cose ; The IESG ; draft- > > ietf-cose-x509@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [COSE] Robert Wilton's No Objection on draft-ietf-cose-x509- > > 07: (with COMMENT) > > > > > > Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 08:28:26AM +0300, Ivaylo Petrov wrote: > > >> Thank you Robert for your review! From this discussion [1] it > > appears that > > >> indeed the intention of the usage of the term bag was not to make > > any > > >> assumptions about the uniqueness of the elements. I am taking a > > note to > > >> make that clear in the document regardless of the conclusion of > > that > > >> discussion. > > >> > > >> [1]: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cose/VLv2E6wcGkC4YY- > > vFMRxnEAXrXo/ > > > > > There is also some precedent for the use of "bag" for this type of > > thing; > > > consider, e.g., https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7292#section-4.2.3 > . > > > > Yes! I was trying to make allusions to some place in PKIX where bag was > > used. > > I understand Carsten's objection that it's mathematically incorrect. > > I don't care one way or another. > > I'm fine with it being called a bag if that is the historical term in this > context. I just think that the description should be clear that it is > unordered and not allowed to contain duplicates. Of course, that is > presuming that it isn't allowed duplicates ;-) > > Regards, > Rob > --000000000000d1cc0905b31025b5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Rob,

Thank = you for your review! My understanding from [1] is that we can have duplicat= es and I made that clear in the text (I am still processing some other comm= ents before I publish a new=C2=A0version).


--
Best regards,
Ivaylo
=
=
=


<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Thu, Oct= 22, 2020 at 7:20 PM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> wrote:


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>
> Sent: 22 October 2020 18:00
> To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>; Ivaylo Petrov <ivaylo@ackl.io>; Rob
> Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; Cose Chairs Wg <cose-
> chairs@ietf.org>; cose <cose@ie= tf.org>; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; draft-
> ietf-cose= -x509@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [COSE] Robert Wilton's No Objection on draft-ietf-cos= e-x509-
> 07: (with COMMENT)
>
>
> Benjamin Kaduk <= kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 08:28:26AM +0300, Ivay= lo Petrov wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> Thank you Robert for your review! From thi= s discussion [1] it
> appears that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> indeed the intention of the usage of the t= erm bag was not to make
> any
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> assumptions about the uniqueness of the el= ements. I am taking a
> note to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> make that clear in the document regardless= of the conclusion of
> that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> discussion.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> [1]: http= s://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cose/VLv2E6wcGkC4YY-
> vFMRxnEAXrXo/
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> There is also some precedent for the use of &q= uot;bag" for this type of
> thing;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> consider, e.g., https:= //tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7292#section-4.2.3 .
>
> Yes! I was trying to make allusions to some place in PKIX where bag wa= s
> used.
> I understand Carsten's objection that it's mathematically inco= rrect.
> I don't care one way or another.

I'm fine with it being called a bag if that is the historical term in t= his context.=C2=A0 I just think that the description should be clear that i= t is unordered and not allowed to contain duplicates.=C2=A0 Of course, that= is presuming that it isn't allowed duplicates ;-)

Regards,
Rob
--000000000000d1cc0905b31025b5-- From nobody Sun Nov 1 10:54:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4957C3A0D50 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:54:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K_4Z_r65sHeT for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:53:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42e.google.com (mail-wr1-x42e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1EB03A0D73 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:53:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id g12so12045265wrp.10 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 10:53:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nF2ZeNK7YAozDRrwuMaPfB5gpLNZtFQKTDjW6yiIBxo=; b=aLq5N+eyoTAZaf2uUsVaRD8Bfg4KWqOqbpxVKKXIP+xn85JYNSBbRKpKHcEhIp4gy6 /Igq4MUBHiOPshVhHHJ9vPKq80oGoQZ+zmmC9NlZGfSHp2rfYnRSAjk9ItYr6sd/psYo IXdXXUuEg7kl7Y4+ktX/xrgdKuVes+inHwxN0/ez4zQvNZC7OM+5vevw6y+vfU1j11WX 2ejg6wbHJH/BK1ossPZRKrDebtNbqqLlRSDq7K8cuJUtZxw7ktm92wvO1EzQfvgFkC3+ TrlrAkDxA4RTU7pAA/47lHf2gJKkBJTRd81IgVHC3xTk+PgYlv3fcLPLSdzXsqufcrYd r2Lw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nF2ZeNK7YAozDRrwuMaPfB5gpLNZtFQKTDjW6yiIBxo=; b=oqZ6J4hMA7iHkIrDO0OHHP81asiWI0p0RFzjOV1bGwgbGHxAZCBMoyjz6gsSlRoL8T g553n1ybC3AoLv9dUy6YGrR8ghjVHy+UvC2o4SXyUvyyr7gchvdO0N+X6IEnzIMlirsw /dGodMPANV/OqIDDNRkOhTlb8jnnTO+fpjy8DeMgKaJr6cexMmO75ON3AfJpQCFTJLuE cFd2sqJEH6J9n5Q5gAPzRcJf5cYrP1WEJbtLyj9Vq1hFi2OcfIwPeGwL7VZesPFLMDEZ Nut5zPMvH2BZG/HiIbi1zRhJUgBDih4WSOrXUU7HV4Ydsd2KlERh/t7eMieQquudOtkA rppw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Kf7eMJe8hjVaeNp/PAucthDKrfnKzmki0Yz8KKca5YfcPV4Vi 9cQOPVgEW9umKzhchJAyTEq8MDAhI8y9KsSGG2bPFA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwq1YTekpD0QJJt6dImmFDwJRdss3d/QH+RDpbP4ilIYhqi0B2mkKmBf1iQHZgSVhWYYH1RGCf/3xEpq5T0NBE= X-Received: by 2002:adf:d0cf:: with SMTP id z15mr16894102wrh.213.1604256836461; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 10:53:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160318952584.30404.16477513681210675311@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <160318952584.30404.16477513681210675311@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Ivaylo Petrov Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 19:53:30 +0100 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?w4lyaWMgVnluY2tl?= Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-cose-x509@ietf.org, Cose Chairs Wg , cose , iot-directorate@ietf.org, Carsten Bormann Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ddbc8205b310265d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-ietf?= =?utf-8?q?-cose-x509-07=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2020 18:54:09 -0000 --000000000000ddbc8205b310265d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, Thank you for your review! I have currently removed the paragraph about the examples from the draft and asked if anyone would volunteer to create the examples. -- Best regards, Ivaylo On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 12:25 PM =C3=89ric Vyncke via Datatracker < noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > =C3=89ric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-cose-x509-07: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cose-x509/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Strange feeling to review this Jim Schaad's document... > > Thank you Carsten for the IoT directorate review at: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-cose-x509-07-iotdir-telechat= -bormann-2020-10-19/ > > The major issue found by Carsten (missing files in the github repo) shoul= d > be > resolved before publication. > > -=C3=A9ric > > > > --000000000000ddbc8205b310265d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,

Thank you= for your review! I have currently removed the paragraph about the examples= from the draft and asked if anyone would volunteer to create the examples.= =C2=A0

--
Best regards,
Ivaylo

On= Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 12:25 PM =C3=89ric Vyncke via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wro= te:
=C3=89ric Vy= ncke has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-cose-x509-07: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s= tatement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-co= se-x509/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Strange feeling to review this Jim Schaad's document...

Thank you Carsten for the IoT directorate review at:
https:/= /datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-cose-x509-07-iotdir-telechat-bormann-= 2020-10-19/

The major issue found by Carsten (missing files in the github repo) should = be
resolved before publication.

-=C3=A9ric



--000000000000ddbc8205b310265d-- From nobody Sun Nov 1 10:56:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B67E3A0D09 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:56:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W5cmZkUFT7uR for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:56:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com (mail-wm1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D25B23A0D05 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id c18so7365986wme.2 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 10:55:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ECrpaSx7WAjQgROgwK4o4AcZ4X3nA5ozF6DzOwhF9BU=; b=ld/ynr7X0+2FcwpUiV/UG7vzgjzyYFuYOe5JRVBl9u9E9IQrd1+vmrezM1Dn+3dYHT ASI9B+g+I3YU/BXB05cIvZOCrrCzme/HZPgjoy4NM3Vs+ibZv7PzXMbpUVqe+wHlAtLF nUw2NDOD1X0Mhv35qeBpl429Uwc8c2NGlufx4CTPzW3VgScf19ClwQCSu517bKFHS5kQ fPtDxsN/vMhSmG7n55oqqvUsT4RqdlV7GgaDTOFwrcqEsFn7IXBvt5Kaa/ZhojDR7mc5 UQv21dU3CKqrzEpN0uN+hON8vlm+vDsnGB1rUlNbjnPCTb+qr9L2arBqoes7pti3CiOh X5fw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ECrpaSx7WAjQgROgwK4o4AcZ4X3nA5ozF6DzOwhF9BU=; b=ucZcLIuC0HFGz1zaYObHTI28GKEXaFuGlH0EOOP2YvKUwEpIaa/fgBrbVn5EiuALZD Ag9mCGfwiUxFjwAy/034qn8mHGE6TCtkExxjf5EjGRhVzPaeXjpT1m2qpBPMwWiYelYd PavcvO4JFOB2W2kHGVoL4sy49Sf4YHzhnMe3TDNNdErLP+mXXkyQXsR7U0z2PE5yFQg1 DKpFITeQrq9m1B4Pth1QMFSMpMDi3QqU/xqOb0p5bNN5m9KN5Spat6lYctGQFeNZ5fv1 94geOUKhfDy03ixffWZMnPQZ+HYoj8iLQRaOo2UeX4s4hg9ssWOsY58HiEqrxcYvzPFP yldA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531V4CjjhM+kkMTxbunHJxcuZkD9vw3Xat1oi63aJHOoi9OV1neP m2ibqb0DUBtirTfAwfIP1EZLvCNx6kB/gCotWpQBLF3ZvhQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx8yxau1oFsb3CperpVB2CoGhT7BGzAY0X05xZHduhCk4Y1y09eAdDNKd30uMgnydobWRNDimBK0MHqnYHrRJQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:608:: with SMTP id o8mr13702563wmm.86.1604256958292; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 10:55:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9284FE68-45D9-4282-8526-78914C3E3043@island-resort.com> In-Reply-To: From: Ivaylo Petrov Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 19:55:32 +0100 Message-ID: To: Laurence Lundblade Cc: cose Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000020b02605b3102ec3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] draft-ietf-cose-x509-07 open GitHub issues, PEM, DER and x5t parameter X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2020 18:56:01 -0000 --00000000000020b02605b3102ec3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Thank you for looking into this! To some extent I am wondering if we should leave some flexibility here for the applications to decide, but probably you are right that we should write those parts explicitly. More precisely: 1) I made the use of DER encoding explicit in the part where we specify CDDL for x5bag. 2) I clarified that the hash is computed over the DER encoding of the certificate. I am not completely sure that we should limit the use of x5t to only reference the certificate containing the end-entity key, but that is also fine with me. Thanks, Ivaylo On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 7:23 PM Laurence Lundblade wrote: > I went through my open GitHub issues on cose-x509 > and closed a few, but a few > remain. The comments on the issue diverged from their titles, but still > seem valuable. They come down to two things. > > 1) There is agreement that only certs in the DER format is allowed. > However, cose-x509-07 doesn=E2=80=99t seem to say that. > > 2) Confusion over the x5t parameter. I think it is to identify the > end-entity cert in an x5bag or out of a collection fetched by URI or a > collection the relying party already has, but I=E2=80=99m not sure from t= he text. > (Maybe it is just my misunderstanding or misreading something). > > LL > > _______________________________________________ > COSE mailing list > COSE@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose > --00000000000020b02605b3102ec3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Thank you for looking into this! To some extent I am wondering if = we should leave some flexibility here for the applications to decide, but p= robably you are right that we should write those parts explicitly. More pre= cisely:
1) I made the use of DER encoding explicit in = the part where we specify CDDL for x5bag.
2) I clarifi= ed that the hash is computed over the DER encoding of the certificate. I am= not completely sure that we should limit the use of x5t to only reference = the certificate containing the end-entity key, but that is also fine=C2=A0w= ith me.

Thanks,
Ivaylo

On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 7:23 PM Laurence Lundblade &= lt;lgl@island-re= sort.com> wrote:
I went through my=C2=A0open GitHub issues on cose-x509=C2=A0and = closed a few, but a few remain.=C2=A0 The comments on the issue diverged fr= om their titles, but still seem valuable. They come down to two things.
1) There is agreement that only certs in the DER format is = allowed. However, cose-x509-07 doesn=E2=80=99t seem to say that.
=
2) Confusion over the x5t parameter. I think it is to identi= fy the end-entity cert in an x5bag or out of a collection fetched by URI or= a collection the relying party already has, but I=E2=80=99m not sure from = the text. (Maybe it is just my misunderstanding or misreading something).

LL

______________________= _________________________
COSE mailing list
COSE@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
--00000000000020b02605b3102ec3-- From nobody Mon Nov 2 10:44:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88C893A0489 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 10:44:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.894 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.894 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZugUmGA4beDU for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 10:44:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3plsmtpa06-01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa06-01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27D8E3A0769 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 10:44:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.81] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id ZeopkxV33nvdIZeoqkHcqQ; Mon, 02 Nov 2020 11:44:40 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=KM2fsHJo c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=5fa05398 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=hkGqNtBZP9XWn9Swat8A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=o2z4CXbxjDjynBaa:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_24182FAE-65E2-4C11-AA3F-98DDD977640D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 10:44:39 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: cose To: Ivaylo Petrov References: <9284FE68-45D9-4282-8526-78914C3E3043@island-resort.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfPqjvgCsJVL6SVMpRx3euPsHDbJYvKDQouCK+bKEAYZOJ6JKXgQP2PYASluHrJv+VyPe0M4TXaKcyMyn9ofD0ne2A/wPHSSl5SYkvIyTLmSpZA8RRXQd W8c8JKzbxlog7MEh329A0pZLmwAQ/GYDC8woZljw6udEIPaV/ygGp4hmTVboG44ZkxjPhAQmzEDaZIqglYZHacKNcD+j1zhW62o= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] draft-ietf-cose-x509-07 open GitHub issues, PEM, DER and x5t parameter X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2020 18:44:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_24182FAE-65E2-4C11-AA3F-98DDD977640D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Ivaylo, > On Nov 1, 2020, at 10:55 AM, Ivaylo Petrov wrote: >=20 > 2) I clarified that the hash is computed over the DER encoding of the = certificate. I am not completely sure that we should limit the use of = x5t to only reference the certificate containing the end-entity key, but = that is also fine with me. JWS is clear about x5t as the end-entity cert: The "x5t" (X.509 certificate SHA-1 thumbprint) Header Parameter is a base64url-encoded SHA-1 thumbprint (a.k.a. digest) of the DER encoding of the X.509 certificate [RFC5280 = ] corresponding to the key used to digitally sign the JWS. I can=E2=80=99t imagine any other use of x5t as all certs superior to = the end-entity must be identified by secured identifiers in the = certificate one below to defend against the attack Ben described (the = same attack that requires x5t a protected header). Appendix D in JWS also discusses use of x5t as the end-entity. I don=E2=80=99t think I=E2=80=99m missing anything here, but tell me if = I am. Also, it looks to me that Appendix D of JWS = is highly applicable to = cose-x509. A non-normative link to it would be helpful in understanding = cose-x509. LL --Apple-Mail=_24182FAE-65E2-4C11-AA3F-98DDD977640D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Ivaylo,

On Nov 1, 2020, at 10:55 AM, Ivaylo Petrov = <ivaylo@ackl.io> = wrote:

2) I clarified that the hash is computed over the DER = encoding of the certificate. I am not completely sure that we should = limit the use of x5t to only reference the certificate containing the = end-entity key, but that is also fine with = me.

JWS is = clear about x5t as the end-entity cert:

   The "x5t" (X.509 certificate =
SHA-1 thumbprint) Header Parameter is a
   base64url-encoded SHA-1 thumbprint (a.k.a. digest) of the DER
   encoding of the X.509 certificate [RFC5280] corresponding to the =
key
   used to digitally sign the =
JWS.

I can=E2=80=99t imagine any other use of x5t as all certs = superior to the end-entity must be identified by secured identifiers in = the certificate one below to defend against the attack Ben described = (the same attack that requires x5t a protected header).

Appendix D in JWS also = discusses use of x5t as the end-entity.

I don=E2=80=99t think I=E2=80=99m = missing anything here, but tell me if I am.


Also, it looks to me that Appendix D of JWS is highly applicable to cose-x509. = A non-normative link to it would be helpful in understanding = cose-x509.

LL


= --Apple-Mail=_24182FAE-65E2-4C11-AA3F-98DDD977640D-- From nobody Mon Nov 2 10:50:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F2A83A0AAF for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 10:50:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.894 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.894 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1YLtLbYD8ZLQ for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 10:50:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3plsmtpa07-10.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa07-10.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.239]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF2593A0B57 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 10:50:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.81] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id ZeuhkdhQel3kTZeuikxF0w; Mon, 02 Nov 2020 11:50:44 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=J7pvUCrS c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=5fa05504 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=K6EGIJCdAAAA:8 a=L2zj2ZZV70PxpSyfiVgA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=cH5hBp-bR6YNzXFtMMkA:9 a=nOmLN7N8cK2weutI:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 a=L6pVIi0Kn1GYQfi8-iRI:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <0D058BB3-D7ED-49E5-8786-85D695B8E67C@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3AA632DD-263F-46D5-9701-28E59123EB66" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 10:50:43 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: Benjamin Kaduk , cose To: Ivaylo Petrov References: <9284FE68-45D9-4282-8526-78914C3E3043@island-resort.com> <20201022152120.GA39170@kduck.mit.edu> <20201022191223.GH39170@kduck.mit.edu> <6A069E4A-C284-4245-B4DE-ADF707ACDC30@island-resort.com> <20201022211804.GI39170@kduck.mit.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfIxDLR264YrP26YeQjc0bZrElyCDO3O7Vplp1hNNqjrmpSp5zqkjAIupvswqxTtySuC2yOpBueCgwCfwDGxIJL9HxfaMpPI6kyF9hHPHyhi0LU0FWqIa r0sCicu1D3ESPWsMX7E68pikK00Wr8Z3M+GrZFYNpV2PRhhg4bT5LQtn0q4EHRYzeuI/4etA/fnuYvT9NFqiMELMdA3ep/FB1A84Th99+ClI4PS3XpY2EVFu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] draft-ietf-cose-x509-07 and x5u header X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2020 18:50:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3AA632DD-263F-46D5-9701-28E59123EB66 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Here=E2=80=99s text from section 6 in JWS = that seems pretty close: Specifically, the Header Parameters "jku", "jwk", "kid", "x5u", "x5c", "x5t", and "x5t#S256" can be used to identify the key used. These Header Parameters MUST be integrity protected if the information that they convey is to be utilized in a trust decision... My understanding is that =E2=80=9Cinfo used in a trust decision=E2=80=9D = typically refers to fields in the end-entity certificate other than the = key. LL > On Nov 1, 2020, at 10:51 AM, Ivaylo Petrov wrote: >=20 > Hello Laurence, >=20 > I am confident this discussion has been useful for the understanding = of everyone, so thank you for starting it! Do not hesitate to suggest = text if you believe anything needs to be explained in more details = regarding why some attributes need to be protected and why others do = not. >=20 > Thanks, > Ivaylo >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 9:02 PM Laurence Lundblade = > wrote: > OK. Got it. Thanks for writing it out. >=20 > I think that means identification of an end-entity cert must usually = be covered by the signature. Since x5t and x5chain identify end-entity = certs, they should be protected headers. =46rom an attackers point of = view the unprotected headers can be manipulated to the same result as an = x5u if it were unprotected. >=20 > It is spelled out clearly here in Key Identification in RFC 7517 = (JWS). Seems like = cose-x509 needs similar text. >=20 > It seems like you could combine a protected x5t with an unprotected = x5u to get the same result. Fetch the cert with x5u, then make sure it = is right with x5t. >=20 > I spent some time reading CMS, RFC 5652. It does not seem to address = this. The SignerIdentifier which identifies the end-entity cert does not = seem to be covered by the signature. This seems like an omission in CMS. >=20 > If I=E2=80=99d read RFC 7515 before I read cose-x509, I would have = been much less confused and caused a lot less trouble here. >=20 > LL >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Oct 22, 2020, at 2:18 PM, Benjamin Kaduk > wrote: >>=20 >> On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 01:56:58PM -0700, Laurence Lundblade wrote: >>> Below... >>>=20 >>>> On Oct 22, 2020, at 12:12 PM, Benjamin Kaduk > wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Laurence, >>>>=20 >>>> On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 11:56:24AM -0700, Laurence Lundblade wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Oct 22, 2020, at 8:21 AM, Benjamin Kaduk > wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 11:40:33AM -0700, Laurence Lundblade = wrote: >>>>>>> I=E2=80=99m trying to understand why the x5u header must be a = COSE protected header parameter and in general what the expected use of = this header is. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> My understanding is that it the relying party that is validating = the cert chain is the one doing the HTTP fetching. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> In the case of application/pkix-cert, then only one DER cert is = returned and that is the end-entity cert. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> My expectation for the way this would work is: >>>>>>> - The relying party would use HTTP to with the x5u URL to fetch = the end-entity cert >>>>>>> - The relying party would have a trust anchor previously = configured >>>>>>> - The certs in the chain between the end-entity are either = already possess by the relying party or are in the x5bag header >>>>>>> - Then it is just a straight forward chain formation and = validation.=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> In this use, there is no requirement for security of the URL or = for use of TLS to fetch it. All the necessary security is provided by = standard chain validation. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> So why is there a requirement that the header be protected and = that TLS/DTLS be used? >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Further, wouldn't the header protection be a form of self = signing since the private key used to sign the header corresponds to the = public key that is being fetched? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> It is in some sense a form of self-signing, yes. But TLS (or = equivalent) >>>>>> is still needed for fetching the certificate in order to verify = that the >>>>>> *certificate* received is the one intended, not a different = certificate >>>>>> that wraps the same public key. There are plenty of attacks if = you swap >>>>>> out the certificate for one with different key usage, SAN, etc. >>>>>> You might argue that it's hard to get a different cert (with >>>>>> attacker-controlled contents) for the same public key if the = attacker >>>>>> doesn't have access to the corresponding private key, but that's = not a very >>>>>> reliable security control. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hi Ben,=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> It seems like your are interpreting the x5u header to be for the = fetching >>>>> of a single validated end-entity certificate. Some remote service = did the >>>>=20 >>>> I do not believe I am doing so. The TLS (or other) authentication = of the >>>> URI target does not inherently stand in for local validation of the >>>> certificate and chain. (There may be particular special cases = arranged by >>>> policy where it does, but not in the general case.) >>>>=20 >>>> I am saying that you can have multiple certificates, call them A = and B, >>>> that certify the same public key K. Knowing K, you can validate = the >>>> message signature, protected attributes, etc., including the URI = used to >>>> fetch the certificate. However, if the URI used to fetch the = certificate >>>> uses a scheme that does not provide integrity protection or server >>>> authentication, then the party dereferencing the URI could obtain >>>> certificate A when the message originator intended for certificate = B to be >>>> used for validation. It is not too hard to imagine situations = where both A >>>> and B can be used to build valid chains that end at root CAs = trusted by the >>>> message recipient, and thus the insecure certificate fetch is (1) >>>> undetected and (2) causes the message to be interpreted differently = than >>>> intended by the originator. As I mentioned originally, A and B = could have >>>> different X.509 extensions, (extended) key usage, subject = information, >>>> etc., so there is a lot of room for the "interpreted differently" = to be >>>> attacked. >>>=20 >>> But isn=E2=80=99t this a problem with any and all cert chain = construction and validation? If this is an issue, then x5bag and = x5chain should be protected headers. >>=20 >> No; once you have a (EE) cert, you have Issuer information to find = the >> next cert in the chain. With just a COSE message you don't have = that. >>=20 >>> Seems like the real problem is CA operation. CA=E2=80=99s = shouldn=E2=80=99t be creating alternate certs for real keys that result = in issues like this. >>=20 >> Most of the time, for most scenarios. But this is not a reliable = security >> control. >>=20 >>> So it still seems to me that the primary reason for an x5u that is a = protected header parameter and obtained with DTLS is so you don=E2=80=99t = have to validate the end-entity on the constrained device. Presumably = you already have a DTLS stack, so you are almost getting the validated = cert for no extra code. >>=20 >> I disagree. >>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> cert chain validation. You and other folks probably were involved = in some >>>>> ace work that I was not involved with to know that. I don=E2=80=99t = think it says >>>>> that clearly in cose-x509, though I can now see how you can = triangulate >>>>> your way to that understanding. If x5u is to work like this, it = seems a >>>>> lot of addition to security considerations is needed. >>>>>=20 >>>>> RFC 2585 does not work this way. It assumes the chain validation = is done locally (see RFC 2585 Security Considerations) and that there is = no need for any transport layer security. This seems like a perfectly = useful and good thing to do and to support in cose-x509. This is what I = outlined in bullet points above. >>>>=20 >>>> With RFC 2585 you know enough information about the *certificate* = that you >>>> want that you have what is (supposed to be, at least) a unique = identifier >>>> for the *certificate*. In the "x5u" case you only have information = about a >>>> *key*, not a certificate. >>>=20 >>> I=E2=80=99m not understanding how x5u is about a key, not about a = certificate. >>=20 >> The key is the only thing tying the COSE message to the certificate; = other >> information in the certificate (e.g., SubjectPublicKeyInfo) is not >> available when processing the COSE message. Let me try to walk = through >> some steps: >>=20 >> You have a COSE message; say it's a signed message. The recipient = has the >> (plain)text, the actual signature bytes, and the parameters, = including x5u. >> If the recipient verifies the signature, they know that the x5u URI = is the >> one intended by the holder of the private key that made the = signature. (In >> order to validate the signature, they presumably have to obtain the >> certificate first, but we're getting there.) The only thing that = ties the >> received message to the certificate obtained by dereferencing the URI = is >> the signature in the message itself. That signature does not contain = or >> include any attributes of the certificate containing the public key >> corresponding to the private key that made the signature; there is no >> SubjectPublicKeyInfo or similar in the COSE message. The only thing >> needed to validate the signature is the public key in question. In >> principle that public key could be obtained in many ways (it could = have >> been included as a COSE_Key for that matter), but in the x5u case, = we're >> supposed to get that public key from a certificate found at a = particular >> URI. But the way that I tie the message+signature to the certificate = is by >> using the public key in the certificate to validate the signature on = the >> message. So, it is the public key that is what I use to find the >> certificate that is associated with the signature, but there is not a >> unique mapping from public key to certificate, in general. In order = for >> the signing party to be confident that the recipient interprets the >> signature properly, there has to be a chain of custody from the >> message+signature to the intended certificate. Using coap-not-s to = obtain >> the certificate breakas the chain of custody -- in extreme cases the >> message could appear to have been generated by a completely different >> entity than it actually was! >>=20 >> -Ben >>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> When I think about implementing cose-x509, I can see several = options. >>>>>=20 >>>>> 1. Just implement x5chain. Fail if x5chain is not present. Only = need code for chain validation. No need for chain formation. >>>>>=20 >>>>> 2. Just implement x5bag and x5t. Fail if x5t and x5bag are not = present. Now you need code for chain validation and chain formation. >>>>>=20 >>>>> 3. Just implement x5u. Fail if x5u is not present. All you need is = some ASN.1 parsing and DTLS code. No chain validation or formation = needed. >>>>>=20 >>>>> 4. Implement all, with a priority order like first try x5chain, = then try x5bag/x5t, finally x5u. >>>>>=20 >>>>> 5. Various combinations of the above >>>>=20 >>>> I believe that there is some intent to use x5t for cases where the >>>> certificates in question are already in local storage on both = parties, so >>>> the thumbprint is just a shortand reference for "use this one [that = you >>>> already have]"; no need for the x5bag. >>>=20 >>> Yes, agreed. Might not even need any chain formation code if the = hierarchy is simple and certs are pre-distributed. >>>=20 >>>> [Probably more comments possible here, but I didn't think very = hard.] >>>>=20 >>>> -Ben >>>=20 >>> LL >>>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> COSE mailing list >> COSE@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose = > _______________________________________________ > COSE mailing list > COSE@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose = --Apple-Mail=_3AA632DD-263F-46D5-9701-28E59123EB66 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Here=E2=80=99s text from section = 6 in JWS that seems pretty close:

   Specifically, the Header
   Parameters "jku", "jwk", "kid", "x5u", "x5c", "x5t", and "x5t#S256"
   can be used to identify the key used.  These Header Parameters MUST
   be integrity protected if the information that they convey is to be
   utilized in a trust decision...

My understanding is that =E2=80=9Cinfo used in a = trust decision=E2=80=9D typically refers to fields in the end-entity = certificate other than the key.

LL


On Nov = 1, 2020, at 10:51 AM, Ivaylo Petrov <ivaylo@ackl.io> wrote:

Hello = Laurence,

I am confident = this discussion has been useful for the understanding of everyone, so = thank you for starting it! Do not hesitate to suggest text if you = believe anything needs to be explained in more details regarding why = some attributes need to be protected and why others do not.

Thanks,
Ivaylo


On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 9:02 PM = Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
OK. Got it. Thanks = for writing it out.

I think that means identification of an = end-entity cert must usually be covered by the signature. Since x5t and = x5chain identify end-entity certs, they should be protected headers. = =46rom an attackers point of view the unprotected headers can be = manipulated to the same result as an x5u if it were = unprotected.

It = is spelled out clearly here in Key Identification in RFC 7517 (JWS). Seems like = cose-x509 needs similar text.

It seems like you could combine a = protected x5t with an unprotected x5u to get the same result. Fetch the = cert with x5u, then make sure it is right with x5t.

I spent some time = reading CMS, RFC 5652. It does not seem to address this. The SignerIdentifier which identifies the = end-entity cert does not seem to be covered by the signature. This seems = like an omission in CMS.

If I=E2=80=99d read RFC 7515 before I read cose-x509, I would = have been much less confused and caused a lot less trouble = here.

LL



On Oct 22, 2020, at 2:18 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:

On Thu, Oct 22, = 2020 at 01:56:58PM -0700, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
Below...

On Oct 22, 2020, at = 12:12 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:

Hi Laurence,

On = Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 11:56:24AM -0700, Laurence Lundblade wrote:

On Oct 22, 2020, at 8:21 AM, Benjamin Kaduk = <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:

On = Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 11:40:33AM -0700, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
I=E2=80=99m trying to = understand why the x5u header must be a COSE protected header parameter = and in general what the expected use of this header is.

My understanding is that it the relying party that is = validating the cert chain is the one doing the HTTP fetching.

In the case of application/pkix-cert, then = only one DER cert is returned and that is the end-entity cert.

My expectation for the way this would work = is:
- The relying party would use HTTP to with the x5u URL = to fetch the end-entity cert
- The relying party would = have a trust anchor previously configured
- The certs in = the chain between the end-entity are either already possess by the = relying party or are in the x5bag header
- Then it is just = a straight forward chain formation and validation. 

In this use, there = is no requirement for security of the URL or for use of TLS to fetch it. = All the necessary security is provided by standard chain validation.

So why is there a requirement that the header = be protected and that TLS/DTLS be used?

Further, wouldn't the header protection be a form of self = signing since the private key used to sign the header corresponds to the = public key that is being fetched?

It is in some sense a form of self-signing, yes.  But = TLS (or equivalent)
is still needed for fetching the = certificate in order to verify that the
*certificate* = received is the one intended, not a different certificate
that wraps the same public key.  There are plenty of = attacks if you swap
out the certificate for one with = different key usage, SAN, etc.
You might argue that it's = hard to get a different cert (with
attacker-controlled = contents) for the same public key if the attacker
doesn't = have access to the corresponding private key, but that's not a very
reliable security control.

Hi Ben, 

It seems like your are interpreting the x5u header to be for = the fetching
of a single validated end-entity certificate. = Some remote service did the

I = do not believe I am doing so.  The TLS (or other) authentication of = the
URI target does not inherently stand in for local = validation of the
certificate and chain.  (There may = be particular special cases arranged by
policy where it = does, but not in the general case.)

I am = saying that you can have multiple certificates, call them A and B,
that certify the same public key K.  Knowing K, you can = validate the
message signature, protected attributes, = etc., including the URI used to
fetch the = certificate.  However, if the URI used to fetch the certificate
uses a scheme that does not provide integrity protection or = server
authentication, then the party dereferencing the = URI could obtain
certificate A when the message originator = intended for certificate B to be
used for = validation.  It is not too hard to imagine situations where both = A
and B can be used to build valid chains that end at root = CAs trusted by the
message recipient, and thus the = insecure certificate fetch is (1)
undetected and (2) = causes the message to be interpreted differently than
intended by the originator.  As I mentioned originally, = A and B could have
different X.509 extensions, (extended) = key usage, subject information,
etc., so there is a lot of = room for the "interpreted differently" to be
attacked.

But isn=E2=80=99t this a problem = with any and all cert chain construction and validation?  If this = is an issue, then x5bag and x5chain should be protected headers.

No; once you = have a (EE) cert, you have Issuer information to find the
next cert in the = chain.  With just a COSE message you don't have that.

Seems like the real problem is CA = operation. CA=E2=80=99s shouldn=E2=80=99t be creating alternate certs = for real keys that result in issues like this.

Most of the = time, for most scenarios.  But this is not a reliable = security
control.
So it still seems to me that the primary = reason for an x5u that is a protected header parameter and obtained with = DTLS is so you don=E2=80=99t have to validate the end-entity on the = constrained device. Presumably you already have a DTLS stack, so you are = almost getting the validated cert for no extra code.

I = disagree.



cert = chain validation. You and other folks probably were involved in some
ace work that I was not involved with to know that. I don=E2=80= =99t think it says
that clearly in cose-x509, though I can = now see how you can triangulate
your way to that = understanding. If x5u is to work like this, it seems a
lot = of addition to security considerations is needed.

RFC 2585 does not work this way. It assumes the chain = validation is done locally (see RFC 2585 Security Considerations) and = that there is no need for any transport layer security. This seems like = a perfectly useful and good thing to do and to support in = cose-x509.  This is what I outlined in bullet points above.

With RFC 2585 you know enough = information about the *certificate* that you
want that you = have what is (supposed to be, at least) a unique identifier
for the *certificate*.  In the "x5u" case you only have = information about a
*key*, not a certificate.

I=E2=80=99m not understanding how = x5u is about a key, not about a certificate.

The key is the = only thing tying the COSE message to the certificate; other
information in = the certificate (e.g., SubjectPublicKeyInfo) is not
available when = processing the COSE message.  Let me try to walk through
some = steps:

You have a COSE = message; say it's a signed message.  The recipient has = the
(plain)text, the = actual signature bytes, and the parameters, including x5u.
If the recipient = verifies the signature, they know that the x5u URI is the
one intended by = the holder of the private key that made the signature. =  (In
order to = validate the signature, they presumably have to obtain the
certificate = first, but we're getting there.)  The only thing that ties = the
received message = to the certificate obtained by dereferencing the URI is
the signature in = the message itself.  That signature does not contain or
include any = attributes of the certificate containing the public key
corresponding to = the private key that made the signature; there is no
SubjectPublicKeyInfo or similar in the COSE message.  = The only thing
needed to = validate the signature is the public key in question.  In
principle that = public key could be obtained in many ways (it could have
been included as = a COSE_Key for that matter), but in the x5u case, we're
supposed to get = that public key from a certificate found at a particular
URI.  But = the way that I tie the message+signature to the certificate is = by
using the public = key in the certificate to validate the signature on the
message.  = So, it is the public key that is what I use to find the
certificate that = is associated with the signature, but there is not a
unique mapping = from public key to certificate, in general.  In order for
the signing = party to be confident that the recipient interprets the
signature = properly, there has to be a chain of custody from the
message+signature = to the intended certificate.  Using coap-not-s to obtain
the certificate = breakas the chain of custody -- in extreme cases the
message could = appear to have been generated by a completely different
entity than it = actually was!

-Ben



When I = think about implementing cose-x509, I can see several options.

1. Just implement x5chain. Fail if x5chain is = not present. Only need code for chain validation. No need for chain = formation.

2. Just implement x5bag and = x5t.  Fail if x5t and x5bag are not present. Now you need code for = chain validation and chain formation.

3. = Just implement x5u. Fail if x5u is not present. All you need is some = ASN.1 parsing and DTLS code. No chain validation or formation needed.

4. Implement all, with a priority order like = first try x5chain, then try x5bag/x5t, finally x5u.

5. Various combinations of the above

I believe that there is some = intent to use x5t for cases where the
certificates in = question are already in local storage on both parties, so
the thumbprint is just a shortand reference for "use this one = [that you
already have]"; no need for the x5bag.

Yes, agreed. Might not even need = any chain formation code if the hierarchy is simple and certs are = pre-distributed.

[Probably more comments possible here, but I didn't think = very hard.]

-Ben

LL


_______________________________________________
COSE mailing = list
COSE@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose

_____________________________________________= __
COSE mailing list
COSE@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose

= --Apple-Mail=_3AA632DD-263F-46D5-9701-28E59123EB66-- From nobody Tue Nov 3 09:06:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D19843A0DDA for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 09:06:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jjtwd49NPIFg for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 09:06:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x330.google.com (mail-wm1-x330.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::330]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 893A53A0DD5 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 09:06:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x330.google.com with SMTP id h22so58362wmb.0 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2020 09:06:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=+L3rt6ptTXAdJUqFn17a5Ru61yXJvty/q420TKsqRcI=; b=azIjO6l1zEtQtUmMTwbvDrjbvoruc0kulm8v+gjIUQcNemiyn5HaOk0SjyzgwB7XUP Vp63tNY0Zq+4yOUXsU5+ym3i171FmFzfaXWBUq4erXvsS3RpQ0KgSyyjJhVLb6WwqPhC 3mEnZsakJ57OHvtZP/9FD2MbgR8kty2nfWWqVn8qHT6Z9P0YFgV7cc9CriSM621cVGnF 40TqQyt2iU4S80x3eG2YQOUXAYRj7py0tOLRgsob1MjvoRpNsVnIO/taZUd5PxxZXAnJ qiiYnl6/Xb+TM8F42hJ04JCe48f1RGwtbKhlk+O4ikZuSonyIhWk+RVloyqv7wnRXU8w QbLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=+L3rt6ptTXAdJUqFn17a5Ru61yXJvty/q420TKsqRcI=; b=C6hicklTR+MtcV10+I9cjCtziAST93HghiZ2if40RP4KHfs49KGDeybIw1Tqp8n262 lXesFpZDfAMPRxnMXkjYL94iFr2uXod7nXTX3RMiOakmxnB5++knnkkMnQVWgkdzFeZd 6nAOMcEybURkKj36AG7alHIrThIxPfQsCN7jwphAteIOCxe75xxu2qMj13xPr+4ewPTu kRD7j8cKAOradTD3Mqb/N9yxz0klvOSsDDt5fzTcl711H5a7QFVV7Z7DIjZ1klraawcH p9BZZy0V2sZmrFmUkc3/SjzolAhWoW1AuCXs9LJNMmpwMa8WHfUGJ70k/xol01oEN12d rKZw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530kIgtI2kgipWxxp1B8E3zP0k2/NjWpr8+qLBT1V96m5amFiZKa lcinOp5XsfEaGuWGZ7RsEj/gL5suMlcT9uklFMkmDymZ5jw0XA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxpgcOgg74okWZCe/a8tUYG6f7fcLoaZYQm4IwDFMYqUDMwP0hGvhB5423tB60i/Ja//eXInZN8+oExe5wyy08= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:608:: with SMTP id o8mr132733wmm.86.1604423159126; Tue, 03 Nov 2020 09:05:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Ivaylo Petrov Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 18:05:33 +0100 Message-ID: To: cose Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007832ea05b336e0a7" Archived-At: Subject: [COSE] Preliminary Agenda and Call for Items @ IETF 109 X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 17:06:06 -0000 --0000000000007832ea05b336e0a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear all, Here is a preliminary agenda for our IETF 109 session. Please let us know if you have any questions or concerns related to it. As a reminder the COSE WG session is scheduled for 60 minutes on Monday, 16 November starting at 7:30 UTC. ``` COSE WG Agenda IETF 109 - Virtual/Meetecho 2020-11-16 @ 7:30 UTC ## 0. Administrivia (Chairs) * NOTE WELL * Bluesheets * Jabber + Minutes * Agenda Bartering ## 1. Document Status (Chairs) ## 2. Countersignatures ## 3. Cert Compression ## 4. Chartering (Chairs) ## 5. AOB ``` -- Matthew and Ivaylo COSE Chairs --0000000000007832ea05b336e0a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear all,

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif;color:r= gb(11,83,148)">Here is a preliminary agenda for our IETF 109 session. Pleas= e let us know if you have any questions or concerns related to it.

As a reminder the COSE WG session is= scheduled for 60 minutes on Monday, 16 November starting at 7:30 UTC.

```
COSE WG= =C2=A0Agenda
IETF 109 - Virtual/Meetecho
= = 2020-11-16 @ 7:30 UTC

## 0. Administrivia (Chairs)=C2=A0
=C2=A0 * NO= TE WELL
=C2=A0 * Bluesheets
=C2=A0 * Jabber + Minutes
=C2=A0 *= =C2=A0Agenda=C2=A0Bartering

## 1. Docum= ent Status (Chairs)
## 2.=C2=A0Countersignatures=

## 3. Cert Compression
## 4. = Chartering (Chairs)=C2=A0

## 5. AOB
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif;color:r= gb(11,83,148)">
```

--
Matthew and= Ivaylo
COSE Chairs
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Wed, 4 Nov 2020 10:52:33 +0100 (CET) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DC85EA1B-5D2F-4AAF-8CBB-9AECC2475A1F" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 626176352.619329-a62aabb5495d13809b79ff585a56547f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 10:52:32 +0100 Message-Id: References: <4533C302-5B24-424F-89EC-C2B0217CF774@tzi.org> To: cose X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [COSE] Fwd: [jose] Do we have actual normative text which curves are allowed / standard for ECDH-ES in JOSE? X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2020 09:52:41 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DC85EA1B-5D2F-4AAF-8CBB-9AECC2475A1F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Discussion somewhat germane to this WG as well. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: Carsten Bormann > Subject: Re: [jose] Do we have actual normative text which curves are = allowed / standard for ECDH-ES in JOSE? > Date: 2020-11-04 at 09:57:28 CET > To: Filip Skokan > Cc: Vladimir Dzhuvinov , "Hamad, Samer K" = , "Voss, Ray" , = "jose@ietf.org" > Message-Id: <4533C302-5B24-424F-89EC-C2B0217CF774@tzi.org> >=20 > The JSON Web Key Elliptic Curve registry just lists the curves: >=20 > = https://www.iana.org/assignments/jose/jose.xhtml#web-key-elliptic-curve >=20 > In COSE we have a registry "COSE Elliptic Curves=E2=80=9D: >=20 > https://www.iana.org/assignments/cose/cose.xhtml#elliptic-curves >=20 > This actually has a column =E2=80=9Cdescription=E2=80=9D that contains = some more information about where these curves are supposed to be used. >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 2020-11-03, at 22:50, Filip Skokan wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Vladimir, >>=20 >> I kinda got the same question from someone a couple days ago and = could pinpoint a clear normative answer. >>=20 >> We have https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7520 that shows ECDH-ES with = P-384 and P-256. In not having any normative text around these curves = being allowed or P-521 being disallowed I always assumed all original = three are fair use for ECDH-ES (and its composite KW variants). >>=20 >> We also have https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8037 which specifically = mentions X25519 and X448 OKP subtypes to be usable for ECDH-ES (and its = composite KW variants). >>=20 >> Then we have the JOSE registration of EC secp256k1 curve which = specifically mentions that the curve is NOT released for ECDH in that = document. >>=20 >> So,=20 >>=20 >> EC P-256 >> EC P-384 >> EC P-521 >> OKP X25519 >> OKP X448 >>=20 >> S pozdravem, >> Filip Skokan >>=20 >>=20 >> On Tue, 3 Nov 2020 at 22:40, Vladimir Dzhuvinov = wrote: >> Today we received the question why the Nimbus JOSE+JWT lib supports = the >> EC curves it does for ECDH (P-256, P-384, P-512) and I couldn't find = any >> normative text or reference in the JWA spec to explain this. >>=20 >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7518#section-4.6 >>=20 >>=20 >> We also looked at the IANA registry for hints: >>=20 >> https://www.iana.org/assignments/jose/jose.xhtml >>=20 >>=20 >> Contrast this with the JWS ECDSA, where the curves to go with the = ESxxx >> algs are specced: >>=20 >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7518#section-3.4 >>=20 >>=20 >> Can someone help here? :) >>=20 >>=20 >> Thanks, >>=20 >> Vladimir >>=20 >> --=20 >> Vladimir Dzhuvinov >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> jose mailing list >> jose@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jose >> _______________________________________________ >> jose mailing list >> jose@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jose >=20 --Apple-Mail=_DC85EA1B-5D2F-4AAF-8CBB-9AECC2475A1F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Discussion somewhat germane to this WG as well.

Gr=C3=BC=C3= =9Fe, Carsten


Begin = forwarded message:

From: = Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Subject: = Re: [jose] Do we = have actual normative text which curves are allowed / standard for = ECDH-ES in JOSE?
Date: 2020-11-04 at 09:57:28 CET
To: Filip Skokan <panva.ip@gmail.com>
Cc: Vladimir Dzhuvinov <vladimir@connect2id.com>, "Hamad, Samer K" <samer.k.hamad@chase.com>, "Voss, Ray" <ray.voss@jpmorgan.com>, "jose@ietf.org" <jose@ietf.org>
Message-Id: <4533C302-5B24-424F-89EC-C2B0217CF774@tzi.org>

The= JSON Web Key Elliptic Curve registry just lists the curves:

https://www.iana.org/assignments/jose/jose.xhtml#web-key-ellipt= ic-curve

In COSE we have a registry = "COSE Elliptic Curves=E2=80=9D:

https://www.iana.org/assignments/cose/cose.xhtml#elliptic-curve= s

This actually has a column = =E2=80=9Cdescription=E2=80=9D that contains some more information about = where these curves are supposed to be used.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten



On = 2020-11-03, at 22:50, Filip Skokan <panva.ip@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Vladimir,

I = kinda got the same question from someone a couple days ago and could = pinpoint a clear normative answer.

We have = https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7520 that shows ECDH-ES with P-384 and = P-256. In not having any normative text around these curves being = allowed or P-521 being disallowed I always assumed all original three = are fair use for ECDH-ES (and its composite KW variants).

We also have = https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8037 which specifically mentions X25519 = and X448 OKP subtypes to be usable for ECDH-ES (and its composite KW = variants).

Then we have the JOSE = registration of EC secp256k1 curve which specifically mentions that the = curve is NOT released for ECDH in that document.

So,

EC P-256
EC = P-384
EC P-521
OKP X25519
OKP = X448

S pozdravem,
Filip = Skokan


On Tue, 3 Nov 2020 at = 22:40, Vladimir Dzhuvinov <vladimir@connect2id.com> wrote:
Today we received the question why the Nimbus JOSE+JWT lib = supports the
EC curves it does for ECDH (P-256, P-384, = P-512) and I couldn't find any
normative text or reference = in the JWA spec to explain this.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7518#section-4.6


We also looked at the IANA = registry for hints:

https://www.iana.org/assignments/jose/jose.xhtml


Contrast this with the JWS = ECDSA, where the curves to go with the ESxxx
algs are = specced:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7518#section-3.4


Can someone help here? :)


Thanks,

Vladimir

--
Vladimir Dzhuvinov


_______________________________________________
jose mailing list
jose@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jose
_______________________________________________
jose mailing list
jose@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jose


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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2d883b45-ffae-4c4a-f74d-08d8826fbf12 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Nov 2020 16:19:33.0357 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: bbB8M4Hw6GIJD+9zb5DQJb/ZOX/7iz8BUdxTkJAGSCL7G+UcSypIeZFP/ROqpKKPdnGhpdBjaL1bSHBZ6gr8IhrUG9yQCaNtTbY2IEhdlCw= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0701MB2747 Archived-At: Subject: [COSE] draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13 X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2020 16:20:53 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0702MB36745AEC1C6E929CA4D9A1C7F4ED0HE1PR0702MB3674_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Apologies for cross-posting LWIG and COSE. I had a brief look at draft-ietf= -lwig-curve-representations-13 and noticed it registers a lot of new COSE (= and JOSE, PKIX, and CMS) algorithms. Has this draft been discussed in COSE = (JOSE/CURDLE)? If not, perhaps it should be before being progressed? * The draft needs to manage the overlap with NIST SP 800-186, which sho= uld be referenced and mappings, name of curves, etc. aligned. The draft def= ines Wei25519 and Wei448. It is unclear if these are identical to W-25519, = W-448 as defined in NIST SP 800-186. We probably would not want two slightl= y different definitions and/or names, multiple COSE code points, etc. * The draft registers the COSE algorithm "ECDSA25519" as "ECDSA with SH= A-256 and curve Wei25519". That is not how the other COSE signature algorit= hms work. They work like PKIX where the curve is given by the public key. A= lso, why cannot W-25519 be used with the existing ES256 signature algorithm= ? * The draft registers the COSE algorithm "ECDH25519". There are no COSE= ECDH algorithms for P-256, why is an ECDH algorithm for W-25519 be needed? Other questions. I may have missed it, but * is it described what are the expected security properties of ECDSA255= 19 (including mapping) compared to Ed25519? For example w.r.t. side channel= attacks? * has any performance measurements been made comparing ECDSA25519 (incl= uding mapping) and Ed25519? * similar questions on security and performance with Wei25519.-3 instea= d of Wei25519. If I understand right, the former mapping is not reversible,= but could benefit from optimized code with hardcoded domain parameters. * ANSI X9.62-2005 was withdrawn in 2015 and is behind a paywall, is thi= s reference necessary? G=F6ran --_000_HE1PR0702MB36745AEC1C6E929CA4D9A1C7F4ED0HE1PR0702MB3674_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,=

&nb= sp;

Apologie= s for cross-posting LWIG and COSE. I had a brief look at draft-ietf-lwig-cu= rve-representations-13 and noticed it registers a lot of new COSE (and JOSE, PKIX, and CMS) algorithms. Has this draft been discussed in COSE (JOSE/CURDLE)? If not, perhaps it shoul= d be before being progressed?

&nb= sp;

&nb= sp;

  • The draft needs to manage= the overlap with NIST SP 800-186, which should be referenced and mappings, name of curves, etc. aligned. The draft defines W= ei25519 and Wei448. It is unclear if these are identical to W-25519, W-448 = as defined in NIST SP 800-186. We probably would not want two slightly diff= erent definitions and/or names, multiple COSE code points, etc.

 

  • The draft registers the COSE algorithm &= quot;ECDSA25519" as "ECDSA with SHA-256 and curve Wei25519". That is not how the other COSE signature algorithms work. They work like P= KIX where the curve is given by the public key. Also, why cannot W-25519 be used with the existing ES256 signature algorithm?

 

  • The draft registers the COSE algorithm &= quot;ECDH25519". There are no COSE ECDH algorithms for P-256, why is an= ECDH algorithm for W-25519 be needed?

 

Other qu= estions. I may have missed it, but

 

  • is it described what are = the expected security properties of ECDSA25519 (including mapping) compared to Ed25519? For example w.r.t. side channel attacks? 

    • has any performance measu= rements been made comparing ECDSA25519 (including mapping) and Ed25519?

     

    • similar questions on secu= rity and performance with Wei25519.-3 instead of Wei25519. If I understand right, the former mapping is not reversible, but could ben= efit from optimized code with hardcoded domain parameters.

     

    • ANSI X9.62-2005 was withdrawn in 2015 an= d is behind a paywall, is this reference necessary?

     

     

    G=F6ran

--_000_HE1PR0702MB36745AEC1C6E929CA4D9A1C7F4ED0HE1PR0702MB3674_-- From nobody Fri Nov 6 11:37:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128BE3A0B93; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 11:37:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.344 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.344 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4MN86c65Ck4y; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 11:37:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x731.google.com (mail-qk1-x731.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::731]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B02F03A0B83; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 11:37:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x731.google.com with SMTP id i21so2143258qka.12; Fri, 06 Nov 2020 11:37:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=to:references:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=fah3bdqB3Redh2oshleUIvGD0zimKPyG3jRmrmG0KDU=; b=Dx6zCWdFZlpsq7MaJUyXWWt992zwEfRgfGxRsGOwStoUbGdtbfw6Gl1fknncCuJUoA DlCZLO+pUoPut8yrW0ipMsrT+YyTTtVITeBr8dEBOFSxc1Ko8NDJYRv4RRafuqztDGSf wlEYdekIfM766zgzPZ0zEzIXyazCuMAzeUmi6t7WgThHca19G5TQvaYHiIpfWWkp2u9m uualZbMu3IXkqpX0DJa03j2kpzgVjLt/1eVAYMEaMmvg8tKnucr5vleUFJCC8QPToPmw KWhW25XuPgeuP21NrFiZqhLH/wY1BhSZCQPJ5ixLPFuwk+bTZH6L7T8d8TwTKx4a+AuT Tvvg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:references:from:subject:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=fah3bdqB3Redh2oshleUIvGD0zimKPyG3jRmrmG0KDU=; b=cNnbqJnnPzF7WlMCJB4KMyGK7BT3eiG57VlaawtDfw+NmutsJIxA0Pm78ODGCblEBs Pb7sKC0ZB8DD95VxpTCD4ZzkH89d8cM0SwpUvxLaGuf8ZlOFNHNfyo65t/RC83AaS0JO BoBzErubz56x8aBpBaOR02oKuIFRyvBILcJok7XhBbkFCnHXTJzCDHJsiU8j8M6rYB4C qs0dyH56fb6+UbA0oFpgMBl5XZwHsceBdD1r+fH33O7ip6W9EH2qWmFAc4HznLpuP4qq wu7ENDLF1wDQpw9kw6Xpp3hS+bx9cLHaYeSuv7/V1HM3z+WQGq6is7N1WVCqR8bxRDG6 6y1A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532VWNorTvDFExMaWwhCFgjwViag1v33AQiXjk0Lg0mF29+MdFp6 +YBr0MlaEclA0R46vovZOSqkytt3PBg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJww/Vj9qz7xs/mTVkJIIV49sDxTaDtC0H8a/TRnBEJJV4+wZ28CGYNBm6sE7WkoGi692ZXy8w== X-Received: by 2002:a37:a110:: with SMTP id k16mr3206932qke.285.1604691424392; Fri, 06 Nov 2020 11:37:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2607:fea8:8a0:1397:8a4:c53a:e94:9c39? ([2607:fea8:8a0:1397:8a4:c53a:e94:9c39]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o187sm1200060qkb.120.2020.11.06.11.37.03 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 06 Nov 2020 11:37:03 -0800 (PST) To: =?UTF-8?Q?G=c3=b6ran_Selander?= , "lwip@ietf.org" , "cose@ietf.org" References: From: Rene Struik Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 14:37:01 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------144DD1AAF9A57B9E9BB63104" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13 X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2020 19:37:08 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------144DD1AAF9A57B9E9BB63104 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Goran: Please find below some brief feedback on your note: - the naming wei25519 has been around since the first draft (Nov 13,=20 2017, i.e., 3 years minus 1 week ago), see [1]. NIST indeed produced two = draft documents, viz. Draft NIST SP 800-186 and Draft FIPS Pub 186-5 (on = October 31, 2019), which generated lots of (to my knowledge still=20 unresolved) comments during public review. It is hard to refer to that=20 document, since it is only a draft and unfortunately has quite a few erro= rs. - earlier versions of the lwig draft have received reviews by the crypto = review panel (Stanislavslav Smyshlyaev), iotdir early-review (Daniel=20 Migault); the sections on COSE/JOSE code point assignments resulted from = a phone call and various email exchanges with Jim Schaad; the section on = PKIX/CMS was suggested during IETF Last-Call secdir-review (Russ=20 Housley) and reviewed by him. The document had IETF Last-Call Aug 24,=20 2020. See, e.g., the status pages [1]. - ECDSA has been around since 1999, has been widely standardized, and=20 has seen lots of analysis, where ECDSA25519 is simply yet another=20 instantiation. Signature generation and verification times for=20 ECDSA25519 should be similar to those of Ed25519 (since timing is=20 dominated by scalar multiplication, where one could simply use=20 Montgomery arithmetic [3]). In my personal view, ECDSA25519 may be more=20 secure than Ed25519 (if only because it is non-deterministic, see=20 Security section [6]); similar side-channel care has to be taken in=20 either case. =A0- As mentioned in the draft, one can easily switch between Wei25519=20 and Curve25519 (which requires a single field addition or subtraction=20 only, i.e., <.01%, see Appendix E.2 [7]). As mentioned in the draft, one = could use Wei25519.-3 with an existing generic implementation that=20 hardcodes the domain parameter a=3D-3, but needs to compute an isogeny an= d=20 dual isogeny for this (adding 5-10% cost, see Appendix G.2 [8]]) and a=20 ~9.5kB table (see Section 5.3 [4]). However, if one already has generic=20 hardware support, one may still have a significant win (see Section 6 [5]= ). - The isogeny for Wei25519.-3 has odd degree l=3D47, which is co-prime=20 with the order of the curve, so is in fact invertible. With Wei448.-3,=20 the isogeny has degree l=3D2, so is not invertible; however, this does no= t=20 really matter, since it is invertible with correctly generated=20 public-private key pairs (which have prime/odd order) and the factor two = is absorbed with co-factor ECDH, where h=3D4 then. I hope this helps. (*) For ease of tracking, it would help if iana related comments are=20 flagged in the subject line (e.g., include (iana) in the beginning hereof= ). Best regards, Rene Ref with hyperlinks: [1]=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-struik-lwig-curve-representat= ions-00 [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representation= s/ [3]=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representatio= ns-13#section-4.3 [4]=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representatio= ns-13#section-5.3 [5]=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representatio= ns-13#section-6 [6]=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representatio= ns-13#section-8 [7]=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representatio= ns-13#appendix-E.2 [8]=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representatio= ns-13#appendix-G.2 On 2020-11-06 11:19 a.m., G=F6ran Selander wrote: > > Hi, > > Apologies for cross-posting LWIG and COSE. I had a brief look at=20 > draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13 and noticed it registers a=20 > lot of new COSE(andJOSE, PKIX, and CMS)algorithms.Has this draft been=20 > discussed in COSE(JOSE/CURDLE)? If not, perhaps it should be before=20 > being progressed? > > * The draft needs to manage the overlap with NIST SP 800-186, which > should be referenced and mappings, name of curves, etc. aligned. > The draft defines Wei25519 and Wei448. It is unclear if these are > identical to W-25519, W-448 as defined in NIST SP 800-186. We > probably would not want two slightly different definitions and/or > names, multiple COSE code points, etc. > > * The draft registers the COSE algorithm "ECDSA25519" as "ECDSA with > SHA-256 and curve Wei25519". That is not how the other COSE > signature algorithms work. They work like PKIX where the curve is > given by the public key. Also, why cannot W-25519 be used with the > existing ES256 signature algorithm? > > * The draft registers the COSE algorithm "ECDH25519". There are no > COSE ECDH algorithms for P-256, why is anECDH algorithm for > W-25519 be needed? > > Other questions. I may have missed it, but > > * is it described what are the expected security properties of > ECDSA25519(including mapping) compared to Ed25519? For example > w.r.t. side channel attacks? > > * has any performance measurements been made comparing > ECDSA25519(including mapping) and Ed25519? > > * similar questions on security and performance with Wei25519.-3 > instead of Wei25519. If I understand right, the former mapping is > not reversible, but could benefit from optimized code with > hardcoded domain parameters. > > * ANSI X9.62-2005 was withdrawn in 2015 and is behind a paywall, is > this reference necessary? > > G=F6ran > > > _______________________________________________ > COSE mailing list > COSE@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose --=20 email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 287-3867 --------------144DD1AAF9A57B9E9BB63104 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi Goran:

Please find below some brief feedback on your note:
- the naming wei25519 has been around since the first draft (Nov 13, 2017, i.e., 3 years minus 1 week ago), see [1]. NIST indeed produced two draft documents, viz. Draft NIST SP 800-186 and Draft FIPS Pub 186-5 (on October 31, 2019), which generated lots of (to my knowledge still unresolved) comments during public review. It is hard to refer to that document, since it is only a draft and unfortunately has quite a few errors.
- earlier versions of the lwig draft have received reviews by the crypto review panel (Stanislavslav Smyshlyaev), iotdir early-review (Daniel Migault); the sections on COSE/JOSE code point assignments resulted from a phone call and various email exchanges with Jim Schaad; the section on PKIX/CMS was suggested during IETF Last-Call secdir-review (Russ Housley) and reviewed by him. The document had IETF Last-Call Aug 24, 2020. See, e.g., the status pages [1].
- ECDSA has been around since 1999, has been widely standardized, and has seen lots of analysis, where ECDSA25519 is simply yet another instantiation. Signature generation and verification times for ECDSA25519 should be similar to those of Ed25519 (since timing is dominated by scalar multiplication, where one could simply use Montgomery arithmetic [3]). In my personal view, ECDSA25519 may be more secure than Ed25519 (if only because it is non-deterministic, see Security section [6]); similar side-channel care has to be taken in either case.
 - As mentioned in the draft, one can easily switch between Wei25519 and Curve25519 (which requires a single field addition or subtraction only, i.e., <.01%, see Appendix E.2 [7]). As mentioned in the draft, one could use Wei25519.-3 with an existing generic implementation that hardcodes the domain parameter a=-3, but needs to compute an isogeny and dual isogeny for this (adding 5-10% cost, see Appendix G.2 [8]]) and a ~9.5kB table (see Section 5.3 [4]). However, if one already has generic hardware support, one may still have a significant win (see Section 6 [5]).
- The isogeny for Wei25519.-3 has odd degree l=47, which is co-prime with the order of the curve, so is in fact invertible. With Wei448.-3, the isogeny has degree l=2, so is not invertible; however, this does not really matter, since it is invertible with correctly generated public-private key pairs (which have prime/odd order) and the factor two is absorbed with co-factor ECDH, where h=4 then.

I hope this helps.

(*) For ease of tracking, it would help if iana related comments are flagged in the subject line (e.g., include (iana) in the beginning hereof).

Best regards, Rene


Ref with hyperlinks:
[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-struik-lwig-curve-representations-00
[2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations/
[3] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-4.3
[4] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-5.3
[5] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-6
[6] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-8
[7] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#appendix-E.2
[8] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#appendix-G.2

On 2020-11-06 11:19 a.m., Göran Selander wrote:

Hi,

 

Apologies for cross-posting LWIG and COSE. I had a brief look at draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13 and noticed it registers a lot of new COSE (and JOSE, PKIX, and CMS) algorithms. Has this draft been discussed in COSE (JOSE/CURDLE)? If not, perhaps it should be before being progressed?

 

 

  • The draft needs to manage the overlap with NIST SP 800-186, which should be referenced and mappings, name of curves, etc. aligned. The draft defines Wei25519 and Wei448. It is unclear if these are identical to W-25519, W-448 as defined in NIST SP 800-186. We probably would not want two slightly different definitions and/or names, multiple COSE code points, etc.

 

  • The draft registers the COSE algorithm "ECDSA25519" as "ECDSA with SHA-256 and curve Wei25519". That is not how the other COSE signature algorithms work. They work like PKIX where the curve is given by the public key. Also, why cannot W-25519 be used with the existing ES256 signature algorithm?

 

  • The draft registers the COSE algorithm "ECDH25519". There are no COSE ECDH algorithms for P-256, why is an ECDH algorithm for W-25519 be needed?

 

Other questions. I may have missed it, but

 

  • is it described what are the expected security properties of ECDSA25519 (including mapping) compared to Ed25519? For example w.r.t. side channel attacks?

 

  • has any performance measurements been made comparing ECDSA25519 (including mapping) and Ed25519?

 

  • similar questions on security and performance with Wei25519.-3 instead of Wei25519. If I understand right, the former mapping is not reversible, but could benefit from optimized code with hardcoded domain parameters.

 

  • ANSI X9.62-2005 was withdrawn in 2015 and is behind a paywall, is this reference necessary?

 

 

Göran


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L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_3DEA816DEBFE4914B3275EA11ECABF45ericssoncom_-- From nobody Mon Nov 9 08:19:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DFF53A11A6 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 08:19:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.622 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.622 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.276, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BfEWiYDDqW9F for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 08:19:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from welho-filter3.welho.com (welho-filter3b.welho.com [83.102.41.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9096C3A118C for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 08:19:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by welho-filter3.welho.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3544F12DA0; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 18:19:27 +0200 (EET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at pp.htv.fi Received: from welho-smtp2.welho.com ([IPv6:::ffff:83.102.41.85]) by localhost (welho-filter3.welho.com [::ffff:83.102.41.25]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Esg0GbWhVEsk; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 18:19:26 +0200 (EET) Received: from LK-Perkele-VII (78-27-99-170.bb.dnainternet.fi [78.27.99.170]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by welho-smtp2.welho.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A313972; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 18:19:24 +0200 (EET) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 18:19:24 +0200 From: Ilari Liusvaara To: "cose@ietf.org" Cc: =?utf-8?B?R8O2cmFu?= Selander Message-ID: <20201109161924.GA3285781@LK-Perkele-VII> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: ilariliusvaara@welho.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13 X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2020 16:19:32 -0000 On Fri, Nov 06, 2020 at 02:37:01PM -0500, Rene Struik wrote: > Hi Goran: > > Please find below some brief feedback on your note: > > - ECDSA has been around since 1999, has been widely standardized, and has > seen lots of analysis, where ECDSA25519 is simply yet another instantiation. Unfortunately, there are some issues: - ECDSA signing involves inversion modulo order, which is nasty to implement and slow. Especially as it needs to be made resistant to side-channel attacks, as side channels against that can be used to recover the private key. - ECDSA25519 is not well-defined in general case. The issue is that it depends on bit order of hash function output as it involves truncating hash to 253 bits (which is not divisible by 8), and not all hash functions define their output bit order. And even with hash functions that do define output bit order, not all define it the same way. For example, output bit order of SHA-256 and SHA3-256 (and SHAKE*) seems to be different, and thus ECDSA25519 of SHA-256 hash is calculated differently than ECDSA25519 of SHA3-256 hash. Even if one restricts to NIST-approved hash functions, this breaks traditional signahash-style ECDSA interface, as hash function used is not passed in. None of P-256, P-384 nor brainpool curves ever trigger this special case. P-521 in theory could, but in practice that does not happen either, as it would require kind of hash function nobody uses. B-x curves could also in theory, but in practice those are either not used, or used with hashes that do not need truncation. > Signature generation and verification times for ECDSA25519 should be similar > to those of Ed25519 (since timing is dominated by scalar multiplication, > where one could simply use Montgomery arithmetic [3]). In my personal view, > ECDSA25519 may be more secure than Ed25519 (if only because it is > non-deterministic, see Security section [6]); similar side-channel care has > to be taken in either case. I do not think that is correct, because ECDSA has that inversion mod order: - The time to perform that is not negligible. Even compared to scalar multiplication. - In signing, it is one more operation to be side-channel resistant. (the outer hash computation in Ed25519 does not need to be side- channel resistant). And that determinism versus non-determinism is not hard property of the signature schemes. There is deterministic ECDSA, and that can be appiled with any curve where ECDSA is well-defined. And while making Ed25519 noisy or non-deterministic breaks the specificaition, it does not break interoperability. (I have actually written non-deterministic Ed25519 implementation as part of really horrible special-purpose TLS 1.3 implmentation. Yes, it does interoperate in real world.) And some notes about making version of Ed25519 that uses SHA-256: - The Ed25519 subkey derivation needs to be split into two hashes instead of running once and splitting the result. The input fits into one block anyway, so it will still be fast. For example, a=SHA256(0|k_priv) and seed=SHA256(1|k_priv). - It is not trivially possible to replace the inner hash SHA512(seed|M) with SHA256(seed|M). However, it turns out that the order in fact does allow this replacement. - If one wants noisy signatures, one way is to replace SHA256(seed|M) with SHA256(seed|M)^noise. The noise must be independent of the private key and seed, but otherwise bad noise (including completely broken one) will not cause immediate catastrophic failure. - If one wants randomized signatures, due to the same reasons as why the inner hash may be replaced, it is recommended to generate more randomness than 256 bits, and then use SHA256 to squash it to 256 bits. This hedges against not-quite-ideal random number generators that would otherwise cause catastrophic failure. However, it will not prevent broken random number generator from causing immediate catastrophic failure. - The outer hash SHA512(R|A|M) can trivially be replaced by SHA256(R|A|M). However, if one truly wants the lightest signatures in code size, AFAIK there is no beating qDSA-type constructions. The notes above about randomized, noisy and deterministic signatures apply here too (except for the seed expansion, one could use seed=SHA256(2|k_priv)), as the nontrivialities are tied to order, and Curve25519 and Edwards25519 being isomorphic/isogenous share the order. The different seed expansion is to remove nasty interaction between the two signatures. As otherwise signing the same message with both using the same private key results in key compromise. qDSA operates on x-only montgomery ladder, which means it does not need point compression and can share most of the key agreement code. One drawback of this is issues with fault attacks. And with regards to Edwards448/Curve448, analogous nontrivialities would apply to hash function with at least 448-bit output, which means one could use 512-bit hash with curve of that order. -Ilari From nobody Mon Nov 9 10:32:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F80F3A12B9 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 10:32:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kJuubuKv21Iy for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 10:32:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x735.google.com (mail-qk1-x735.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::735]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 589B43A1283 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 10:32:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x735.google.com with SMTP id t191so7687405qka.4 for ; Mon, 09 Nov 2020 10:32:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=to:cc:references:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=Ez0v3fE1va6k2pNvaIUqb7WWx43Q0mbSP1bTbAneVXg=; b=l08FmrMs+herNWIdRfINB9SdhZLcnHMLa6Q5tDC/lQ0O8avMZXA2Eors1TcODDuI+p C1fGgYwcDcvEf7zmtUEyP4SV5HzGPSP62whvH6cp42dzlsbMpbimhPhH1pWLuTBUSbIm Cq2aXrTz+BsSrsti6pOsifFigHBXEL6qXopCJ50IJYrFgeLu+0ccgxhB0lDvIfEyWcc+ +WKM3f2KLGaLSM5amRv7Qsig5CEdwMdVFh+0+pcmZFSiXluggHHbKU33oewfB/QghRie Dz0BW8i4wI0cgZIaYrLH4oGY2+LjkDbs13bK1O8mVRz3D03hFZp7nqip+wnJedDKpd2z ntbA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:cc:references:from:subject:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=Ez0v3fE1va6k2pNvaIUqb7WWx43Q0mbSP1bTbAneVXg=; b=af0pBrlwR2491qCYolUmx6HYx+ngHCVLcJrt4cW+NulJVaw8p8tizcwxaWvQimaY+Z A9pERB851LFgbw6X291ZhsUo8ZQuwBB6Xaut3t9Z+4mJMga/Fzr1mylMt4vKz+NEL+Nv JEwIiYPNrEwpCUNIL22ts+uWZZzF1nEv4NkYeQPEqAfkGhR40b65XKNGwxRwOF8ySpaV qke7Tf3MPx3kgBk8aXwMapgaTAXAbigOmQZccIsOCnkTsVokvFtpeENAXg3RTKdYBZNr ICUYm/dG/UH/XlVrHijhLB0Nbuj1biT9rL2SZNiHQo2VUDT25MjwYf4ULqh2Xu0zG9Af b3xA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533VkOCaq+ygXexUg56zBcbbFOsal9JeMDc90bqLKhNWB5N7Lu4C AQOHwXFJC7cGEXMR9fMuc0QcybEOsfc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwrAujHT7XVr8Yyv0ZARtW8KGVakgDJS0t7Pc2YdMg1XG4YE65CnIiJ5ydV+BtYVIQghRhLNQ== X-Received: by 2002:a37:9b13:: with SMTP id d19mr1175535qke.172.1604946719271; Mon, 09 Nov 2020 10:31:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2607:fea8:8a0:1397:52d:81:4646:237? ([2607:fea8:8a0:1397:52d:81:4646:237]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a3sm6274055qtp.63.2020.11.09.10.31.58 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 09 Nov 2020 10:31:58 -0800 (PST) To: Ilari Liusvaara , "cose@ietf.org" Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?G=c3=b6ran_Selander?= References: <20201109161924.GA3285781@LK-Perkele-VII> From: Rene Struik Message-ID: <7292d600-b525-c41b-b8fc-2134dedda094@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 13:31:55 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20201109161924.GA3285781@LK-Perkele-VII> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------76E57703A5B84E9A13EA27F0" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13 X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2020 18:32:05 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------76E57703A5B84E9A13EA27F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ilari: I do think ECDSA25519 is unambiguously specified and is not allowed to=20 be abused by cutting corners, sincee the security consideration section=20 explicitly writes/ / / / /=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "T//o prevent intra-protocol cross-instantiation atta= cks, ephemeral=20 private keys MUST NOT be reused between instantiations of ECDSA25519 or=20 ECDSA448."/. A method for inversion of non-zero elements of GF(q) is provided in=20 Appendix E.1 of draft NIST SP 800-186, which writes /If one is concerned about side-channel leakage, one should compute u^{=E2=88=921} indirectly by first computing the inverse of the blind= ed element =CE=BBu, where =CE=BB is a random nonzero element of GF(q), 1= 984 and subsequently computing =CE=BB(=CE=BBu)^{=E2=88=921} =3D u^{=E2=88=921= }. This yields an inversion routine where the inversion operation itself does not require side-channel protection and which may have relatively low computational complexity./ Specifying ECDSA25519 and ECDSA448 simply allows its use, but does not=20 mandate this. Other arguments that one could change EdDSA to make this more secure=20 against trivial fault attacks and about other cool things (like qDSA) do = not seem to be relevant to the lwig curve draft or the COSE WG and seem=20 more appropriate for, e.g., the CFRG mailing list. Best regards, Rene On 2020-11-09 11:19 a.m., Ilari Liusvaara wrote: > On Fri, Nov 06, 2020 at 02:37:01PM -0500, Rene Struik wrote: >> Hi Goran: >> >> Please find below some brief feedback on your note: >> >> - ECDSA has been around since 1999, has been widely standardized, and = has >> seen lots of analysis, where ECDSA25519 is simply yet another instanti= ation. > Unfortunately, there are some issues: > > - ECDSA signing involves inversion modulo order, which is nasty to > implement and slow. Especially as it needs to be made resistant > to side-channel attacks, as side channels against that can be used > to recover the private key. > > - ECDSA25519 is not well-defined in general case. The issue is that > it depends on bit order of hash function output as it involves > truncating hash to 253 bits (which is not divisible by 8), and not > all hash functions define their output bit order. > > And even with hash functions that do define output bit order, not > all define it the same way. For example, output bit order of SHA-256= > and SHA3-256 (and SHAKE*) seems to be different, and thus ECDSA25519= > of SHA-256 hash is calculated differently than ECDSA25519 of SHA3-25= 6 > hash. > > Even if one restricts to NIST-approved hash functions, this breaks > traditional signahash-style ECDSA interface, as hash function used > is not passed in. > > None of P-256, P-384 nor brainpool curves ever trigger this special > case. P-521 in theory could, but in practice that does not happen > either, as it would require kind of hash function nobody uses. B-x > curves could also in theory, but in practice those are either not > used, or used with hashes that do not need truncation. > >> Signature generation and verification times for ECDSA25519 should be s= imilar >> to those of Ed25519 (since timing is dominated by scalar multiplicatio= n, >> where one could simply use Montgomery arithmetic [3]). In my personal = view, >> ECDSA25519 may be more secure than Ed25519 (if only because it is >> non-deterministic, see Security section [6]); similar side-channel car= e has >> to be taken in either case. > I do not think that is correct, because ECDSA has that inversion mod > order: > > - The time to perform that is not negligible. Even compared to scalar > multiplication. > - In signing, it is one more operation to be side-channel resistant. > (the outer hash computation in Ed25519 does not need to be side- > channel resistant). > > And that determinism versus non-determinism is not hard property of the= > signature schemes. There is deterministic ECDSA, and that can be appile= d > with any curve where ECDSA is well-defined. And while making Ed25519 no= isy > or non-deterministic breaks the specificaition, it does not break > interoperability. > > (I have actually written non-deterministic Ed25519 implementation as > part of really horrible special-purpose TLS 1.3 implmentation. Yes, it > does interoperate in real world.) > > > > And some notes about making version of Ed25519 that uses SHA-256: > > - The Ed25519 subkey derivation needs to be split into two hashes > instead of running once and splitting the result. The input fits int= o > one block anyway, so it will still be fast. For example, > a=3DSHA256(0|k_priv) and seed=3DSHA256(1|k_priv). > - It is not trivially possible to replace the inner hash SHA512(seed|M)= > with SHA256(seed|M). However, it turns out that the order in fact > does allow this replacement. > - If one wants noisy signatures, one way is to replace SHA256(seed|M) > with SHA256(seed|M)^noise. The noise must be independent of the > private key and seed, but otherwise bad noise (including completely > broken one) will not cause immediate catastrophic failure. > - If one wants randomized signatures, due to the same reasons as why > the inner hash may be replaced, it is recommended to generate more > randomness than 256 bits, and then use SHA256 to squash it to 256 > bits. This hedges against not-quite-ideal random number generators > that would otherwise cause catastrophic failure. However, it will > not prevent broken random number generator from causing immediate > catastrophic failure. > - The outer hash SHA512(R|A|M) can trivially be replaced by > SHA256(R|A|M). > > However, if one truly wants the lightest signatures in code size, AFAIK= > there is no beating qDSA-type constructions. The notes above about > randomized, noisy and deterministic signatures apply here too (except > for the seed expansion, one could use seed=3DSHA256(2|k_priv)), as the > nontrivialities are tied to order, and Curve25519 and Edwards25519 > being isomorphic/isogenous share the order. > > The different seed expansion is to remove nasty interaction between > the two signatures. As otherwise signing the same message with both > using the same private key results in key compromise. > > qDSA operates on x-only montgomery ladder, which means it does not > need point compression and can share most of the key agreement code. > One drawback of this is issues with fault attacks. > > And with regards to Edwards448/Curve448, analogous nontrivialities > would apply to hash function with at least 448-bit output, which means > one could use 512-bit hash with curve of that order. > > > -Ilari > > _______________________________________________ > COSE mailing list > COSE@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose --=20 email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 287-3867 --------------76E57703A5B84E9A13EA27F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi Ilari:

I do think ECDSA25519 is unambiguously specified and is not allowed to be abused by cutting corners, sincee the security consideration section explicitly writes

    "To prevent intra-protocol cross-instantiation attacks, ephemeral private keys MUST NOT be reused between instantiations of ECDSA25519 or ECDSA448.".

A method for inversion of non-zero elements of GF(q) is provided in Appendix E.1 of draft NIST SP 800-186, which writes
If one is concerned about side-channel leakage, one should compute u^{−1} indirectly by first computing the inverse of the blinded element λu, where λ is a random nonzero element of GF(q), 1984 and subsequently computing λ(λu)^{−1} = u^{−1}. This yields an inversion routine where the inversion operation itself does not require side-channel protection and which may have relatively low computational complexity.
Specifying ECDSA25519 and ECDSA448 simply allows its use, but does not mandate this.

Other arguments that one could change EdDSA to make this more secure against trivial fault attacks and about other cool things (like qDSA) do not seem to be relevant to the lwig curve draft or the COSE WG and seem more appropriate for, e.g., the CFRG mailing list.

Best regards, Rene

On 2020-11-09 11:19 a.m., Ilari Liusvaara wrote:
On Fri, Nov 06, 2020 at 02:37:01PM -0500, Rene Struik wrote:

Hi Goran:

Please find below some brief feedback on your note:

- ECDSA has been around since 1999, has been widely standardized, and has
seen lots of analysis, where ECDSA25519 is simply yet another instantiation.

Unfortunately, there are some issues:

- ECDSA signing involves inversion modulo order, which is nasty to
  implement and slow. Especially as it needs to be made resistant
  to side-channel attacks, as side channels against that can be used
  to recover the private key.

- ECDSA25519 is not well-defined in general case. The issue is that
  it depends on bit order of hash function output as it involves
  truncating hash to 253 bits (which is not divisible by 8), and not
  all hash functions define their output bit order.

  And even with hash functions that do define output bit order, not
  all define it the same way. For example, output bit order of SHA-256
  and SHA3-256 (and SHAKE*) seems to be different, and thus ECDSA25519
  of SHA-256 hash is calculated differently than ECDSA25519 of SHA3-256
  hash.

  Even if one restricts to NIST-approved hash functions, this breaks
  traditional signahash-style ECDSA interface, as hash function used
  is not passed in.

  None of P-256, P-384 nor brainpool curves ever trigger this special
  case. P-521 in theory could, but in practice that does not happen
  either, as it would require kind of hash function nobody uses. B-x
  curves could also in theory, but in practice those are either not
  used, or used with hashes that do not need truncation.


Signature generation and verification times for ECDSA25519 should be similar
to those of Ed25519 (since timing is dominated by scalar multiplication,
where one could simply use Montgomery arithmetic [3]). In my personal view,
ECDSA25519 may be more secure than Ed25519 (if only because it is
non-deterministic, see Security section [6]); similar side-channel care has
to be taken in either case.

I do not think that is correct, because ECDSA has that inversion mod
order:

- The time to perform that is not negligible. Even compared to scalar
  multiplication.
- In signing, it is one more operation to be side-channel resistant.
  (the outer hash computation in Ed25519 does not need to be side-
  channel resistant).

And that determinism versus non-determinism is not hard property of the
signature schemes. There is deterministic ECDSA, and that can be appiled
with any curve where ECDSA is well-defined. And while making Ed25519 noisy
or non-deterministic breaks the specificaition, it does not break
interoperability.

(I have actually written non-deterministic Ed25519 implementation as
part of really horrible special-purpose TLS 1.3 implmentation. Yes, it
does interoperate in real world.)



And some notes about making version of Ed25519 that uses SHA-256:

- The Ed25519 subkey derivation needs to be split into two hashes
  instead of running once and splitting the result. The input fits into
  one block anyway, so it will still be fast. For example,
  a=SHA256(0|k_priv) and seed=SHA256(1|k_priv).
- It is not trivially possible to replace the inner hash SHA512(seed|M)
  with SHA256(seed|M). However, it turns out that the order in fact
  does allow this replacement.
- If one wants noisy signatures, one way is to replace SHA256(seed|M)
  with SHA256(seed|M)^noise. The noise must be independent of the
  private key and seed, but otherwise bad noise (including completely
  broken one) will not cause immediate catastrophic failure.
- If one wants randomized signatures, due to the same reasons as why
  the inner hash may be replaced, it is recommended to generate more
  randomness than 256 bits, and then use SHA256 to squash it to 256
  bits. This hedges against not-quite-ideal random number generators
  that would otherwise cause catastrophic failure. However, it will
  not prevent broken random number generator from causing immediate
  catastrophic failure.
- The outer hash SHA512(R|A|M) can trivially be replaced by
  SHA256(R|A|M).

However, if one truly wants the lightest signatures in code size, AFAIK
there is no beating qDSA-type constructions. The notes above about
randomized, noisy and deterministic signatures apply here too (except
for the seed expansion, one could use seed=SHA256(2|k_priv)), as the
nontrivialities are tied to order, and Curve25519 and Edwards25519
being isomorphic/isogenous share the order.

The different seed expansion is to remove nasty interaction between
the two signatures. As otherwise signing the same message with both
using the same private key results in key compromise.

qDSA operates on x-only montgomery ladder, which means it does not
need point compression and can share most of the key agreement code.
One drawback of this is issues with fault attacks. 

And with regards to Edwards448/Curve448, analogous nontrivialities
would apply to hash function with at least 448-bit output, which means
one could use 512-bit hash with curve of that order.


-Ilari

_______________________________________________
COSE mailing list
COSE@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose



-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 287-3867
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draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13 X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 13:52:26 -0000 --_000_4661573047880a16fb98b60a24067201ericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgSm9obiwNCg0KVGhlc2UgYXJlIGFsbCB2YWxpZCBwb2ludHMgYW5kIEkgYW0gc3VyZSB0aGUg YXV0aG9ycyB3aWxsIGFkZHJlc3MgdGhlbS4NCg0KUmVnYXJkaW5nIHRoZSBwcm9jZXNzIG9mIElB TkEgcmVnaXN0cmF0aW9ucywgUkZDIDgxMjYgKGh0dHBzOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9y ZmM4MTI2I3NlY3Rpb24tNS4yKSBub3RlczoNCg0KICAgVGhlIGRlc2lnbmF0ZWQgZXhwZXJ0IGlz IHJlc3BvbnNpYmxlIGZvciBjb29yZGluYXRpbmcgdGhlIGFwcHJvcHJpYXRlDQogICByZXZpZXcg b2YgYW4gYXNzaWdubWVudCByZXF1ZXN0Lg0KDQpBcyB5b3UgY2FuIHNlZSBmcm9tIHRoZSBkb2N1 bWVudCBoaXN0b3J5IGh0dHBzOi8vZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcvZG9jL2RyYWZ0LWlldGYt 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charset="UTF-8" Dear all, This is a call for volunteers for helping with the minutes and with jabber for our session next Monday. For the minutes we will mostly need the action items to be written down. If you would like to volunteer, please just send an email to the chairs (in CC). Thank you in advance! -- Matthew and Ivaylo COSE Chairs --0000000000008f49ec05b3cf8875 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear all,

T= his is a call for volunteers for helping with the minutes and with jabber f= or our session next Monday. For the minutes we will mostly need the action = items to be written down.

If you would lik= e to volunteer, please just send an email to the chairs (in CC).

Thank you in advance!

<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature= ">
--
Matthew and Ivaylo
COSE Chairs

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Miller" , cose Thread-Topic: [COSE] Preliminary Agenda and Call for Items @ IETF 109 Thread-Index: AQHWsgOoDX8AJY/m/Ueit2Y09oLpzKnGHatZ Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 13:38:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ackl.io; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ackl.io; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [83.251.145.232] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: cd5f1963-552b-44ff-e0a5-08d887d96d8a x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HE1PR0701MB2844: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: UGLbdgBfyew+xC+pi2w6MEYUB3B/JwLwYim8OK1MaV6gZOwJxscB5HW3AMWuT1mlmz3RdKub6uDlBbgTV0plngfl79P8IHZaKBeuGW7gTsNFGqH4Afgm3o/oWkvlo24Rm3XXPstvm+G6VkR3D+k/ZRhy49hq7yR7vfcNFgk1bhwqesum+Ya/2Lzo7/SQODeEJcNXpfyrsCUQkygSCWuGbxz1Iofc6kDgi/8WYj8p/QycU9CZLiptp7Wzo1sbcrvZExtoJ/IoYlM51rQZFwRlP/I6W3EZCjSdpOy1thRjdXa7xC3jqCZxUOLwWnBefV4PMS2b23dFr1TZSGequlp6lnDMnPQPSt3PwTv5EOJdNhKHKVpep9IvS/m4fc5fUgY3sM6fFn871YGnp5D6l1L1Ag== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:HE1PR0702MB3674.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(136003)(39860400002)(396003)(346002)(366004)(376002)(66556008)(66946007)(21615005)(7696005)(53546011)(186003)(966005)(86362001)(110136005)(5660300002)(55016002)(66574015)(66476007)(9686003)(478600001)(83380400001)(8676002)(66446008)(76116006)(316002)(6506007)(71200400001)(4001150100001)(26005)(166002)(33656002)(2906002)(64756008)(52536014)(8936002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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 x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR0702MB3674F8A18D59DFD8D59CCCC2F4E60HE1PR0702MB3674_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: HE1PR0702MB3674.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: cd5f1963-552b-44ff-e0a5-08d887d96d8a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Nov 2020 13:38:38.6967 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: dDgiitbKqE3s1fVJkxurGc/DFYvY/ujtmIpVpoZKhDCPNqH36YH48X8zMkYiDw77iJ/642/vWTi5/cSoZPTaUbm2W41Zf4TbPvcz5xDyWQs= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0701MB2844 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] Preliminary Agenda and Call for Items @ IETF 109 X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 13:38:53 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0702MB3674F8A18D59DFD8D59CCCC2F4E60HE1PR0702MB3674_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear chairs and all, We uploaded slides for agenda item #3 (CBOR Certificates) of the COSE WG me= eting to the current Github repo: https://github.com/EricssonResearch/CBOR-certificates https://github.com/EricssonResearch/CBOR-certificates/blob/master/IETF-109-= COSE-CBOR-Certificates.pdf Note that -03 is not submitted yet, will be when the submission tool opens = again, but the Editor=92s copy on the Github is up-to-date: https://ericssonresearch.github.io/CBOR-certificates/draft-mattsson-cose-cb= or-cert-compress.html Looking forward to a good discussion! Best regards G=F6ran On 2020-11-03, 18:06, "COSE" wrote: Dear all, Here is a preliminary agenda for our IETF 109 session. Please let us know i= f you have any questions or concerns related to it. As a reminder the COSE WG session is scheduled for 60 minutes on Monday, 16= November starting at 7:30 UTC. ``` COSE WG Agenda IETF 109 - Virtual/Meetecho 2020-11-16 @ 7:30 UTC ## 0. Administrivia (Chairs) * NOTE WELL * Bluesheets * Jabber + Minutes * Agenda Bartering ## 1. Document Status (Chairs) ## 2. Countersignatures ## 3. Cert Compression ## 4. Chartering (Chairs) ## 5. AOB ``` -- Matthew and Ivaylo COSE Chairs --_000_HE1PR0702MB3674F8A18D59DFD8D59CCCC2F4E60HE1PR0702MB3674_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear chairs and all,

 

We uploaded slides for agenda item #3 (CBOR Certificates) of the COSE= WG meeting to the current Github repo:

 

https://github.com/EricssonResearch/CBOR-certificates= <= /o:p>

 

https://github.com/EricssonResearch/CBOR-ce= rtificates/blob/master/IETF-109-COSE-CBOR-Certificates.pdf

 

Note that -03 is not submitted yet, will be when the submission tool = opens again, but the Editor=92s copy on the Github is up-to-date:

 

https://ericssonresearch.github.io/= CBOR-certificates/draft-mattsson-cose-cbor-cert-compress.html

 

 

Looking forward to a good discussion!

 

Best regards

G=F6ran

 

 

 

&nbs= p;

On 2020-11-03, 18:06, "COSE" <cose-bounces@ietf.org> wrote:=

Dear all,

 

Here is a preliminary a= genda for our IETF 109 session. Please let us know if you have any question= s or concerns related to it.

 

As a reminder the COSE = WG session is scheduled for 60 minutes on Monday, 16 November starting at 7= :30 UTC.

 

```

COSE WG Agenda

IETF 109 - Virtual/Meet= echo

2020-11-16 @ 7:30 UTC

 

## 0. Administrivia (Ch= airs)

  * NOTE WELL=

  * Bluesheet= s

  * Jabber + = Minutes

  * Agenda Ba= rtering

 

## 1. Document Status (= Chairs)

 

## 2. Countersignatures=

 

## 3. Cert Compression<= o:p>

 

## 4. Chartering (Chair= s)

 

## 5. AOB

 

```

 

--

Matthew and Ivaylo=

COSE Chairs<= /p>

--_000_HE1PR0702MB3674F8A18D59DFD8D59CCCC2F4E60HE1PR0702MB3674_-- From nobody Fri Nov 13 06:58:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 786DB3A0D84 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2020 06:58:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FfEJq8NYrASr for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2020 06:57:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x834.google.com (mail-qt1-x834.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::834]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09E7B3A0D75 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2020 06:57:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x834.google.com with SMTP id g15so6803806qtq.13 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2020 06:57:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=to:references:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=oU+Ypbtuxs3FsljHzXZQR6zHZCn30QadcHJefhCiIAM=; b=bkMk2l50PQOn3nuypM5PM5yJ9WSSR8zyRi1v12MIhwRjCAQxJrBn1GrVETlbkfaKaf 9NIlP3Z38TPjTRwfaEYvIzA2X5PdZG5dbb+Lp+mBHhlQs46hTgevDo+Dd2WKtOuLS00R +C787lzMcwRjmm6KCQl3XltIjzM0jvvh3S/TLH3xg+/idWRml5Qc3KZRFYCDtQvICBbN RqH08a7GRnoFdALLDE6/cpZFD9/un5TZVr8QzsucyDAhm+GOLiNL5g4XG5k0RZEuwQ3g AC0NDwfPU+1izw8tpqcVF9yqR3uwyE97YAEoPOybi4t+yzK7cbn27Um9DD/T9/FgN06P xblw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:references:from:subject:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=oU+Ypbtuxs3FsljHzXZQR6zHZCn30QadcHJefhCiIAM=; b=WbLVemRQJIVjazG7UMWq242Zc2uxQqnjt12ZNMaLAXTQtxpOQoQxkIGL+66q2MkwdJ rRXn1p3XFMu17OEXr3LB0XeQg+GV6KXyMia9kAzpoKco7j3pv0yMDrwFsKebK3bySjXO gu0c1PIdXQdQaD3o0jr1lXhqsgphq9TzjFaYntgnLX98jKD4HWvJKG/502sei0bVmXIV QLjCwZpBoBFSlPAB4eyYeihrCt6bsK2tgFqodv4FZWZWwJC4wvw7UEEsIPcqZyny6sBt 7FBhKM7qaczVxL6Zja72C6tscym76akmlDJhACWg+1ZBOUD0KbPC7Gdp4jD01TU1gvKT f77g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Pynf8bw3qb/Uk0X4SRJww0zyA+VpB2ZnluUR3qeMyN9Y90cJg V0NFrNEhb11Wwt9GC3+sH7naXFmCQic= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy5tNNrTgAivbtNJT66XnnkhbiEYhH80OsnOInMt57pYI+Yvps1TYXtfkKW5NWgElesttwMjw== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5c4e:: with SMTP id j14mr2379152qtj.241.1605279476755; Fri, 13 Nov 2020 06:57:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2607:fea8:8a0:1397:fc5f:12b:d173:619a? ([2607:fea8:8a0:1397:fc5f:12b:d173:619a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y1sm528242qky.63.2020.11.13.06.57.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 13 Nov 2020 06:57:55 -0800 (PST) To: =?UTF-8?Q?G=c3=b6ran_Selander?= , Ivaylo Petrov , "Matthew A. Miller" , cose References: From: Rene Struik Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 09:57:54 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A1B2961A7D9B048992CA6B03" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [COSE] (feedback on Wei25519/Wei448-related stuff) Re: Preliminary Agenda and Call for Items @ IETF 109 X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 14:58:01 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A1B2961A7D9B048992CA6B03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Goran: I had a brief look at your slides posted on the Ericsson github page [1]:= - Side #11, text marked in red: the answer to this question is "yes",=20 with small correction: n is not the size of the prime-order subgroup,=20 not the curve order (which is h*n) Note: for curves in question, both n and h*n have the same byte-length - Slide #11, last line: ECDSA is defined in FIPS Pub 186-4 Note: draft FIPS Pub 186-5 stipulates that hash SHAKE has fixed output=20 size 256 or 512 bits (see also PKIX-related blurb in lwig draft, which=20 refers to RFC 8692 that is consisent with this. See=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representatio= ns-13#section-11.2 - Slide #13: the lwig draft requests registration of OIDs id-Wei25519=20 and id-Wei448, based on IETF Last-Call comments SecDir. Those would end=20 up with lefthandside column of this slide See:=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representatio= ns-13#section-12.1 As to point compression: PKIX specifies this using the SEC1 format. See=20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5480#section-2.2 Note: with Wei25519, SEC1 encoding yields 33-octet strings, while=20 "squeezed" MSB/msb-order yields 32-octet strings (for Wei448, there is=20 no difference). See also definitions in (c) below. In either case, there is a 1-1 map between these, so if, e.g., LAKE WG=20 wishes to shave-off one byte over-the-air, one could do so and convert=20 back in light-weight preprocessing of incoming packet See (a) and (b) below for details; see (c) below for definitions. (a) ECDSA25519 signatures: Signature: pair (r,s), where r and s are 32-octet integers, in tight=20 MSB/msb-order Notes: -this uses the same encoding principles as in same format as=20 ECDSA/P-256/SHA-256 - "tight" means that integers r and s are represented as fixed-size=20 strings (so, no leaving out of leading zero-octets) -with Wei25519, n is 253-bit integer (i.e., 32-octet), see also=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representatio= ns-13#appendix-E.3 For description, see=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representatio= ns-13#section-4.3 For PKIX-related blurb, see=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representatio= ns-13#section-11.2 (b) ECDSA448 signatures: Signature: pair (r,s), where r and s are 56-octet integers, using same=20 encoding principles as ECDSA/P-256/SHA-56 Notes: -this uses the same encoding principles as in same format as=20 ECDSA/P-256/SHA-256 - "tight" means that integers r and s are represented as fixed-size=20 strings (so, no leaving out of leading zero-octets) -with Wei448, n is 446-bit integer (i.e., 56-octet), see also=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representatio= ns-13#appendix-M.3 For description, see=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representatio= ns-13#section-4.4 For PKIX-related blurb, see=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representatio= ns-13#section-11.2=20 (c) Unambiguous definitions: For definition curve nomenclature, see=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representatio= ns-13#appendix-B.1 For definition of bit-length, byte-length, see=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representatio= ns-13#appendix-I.1 For definition of point encodings, including "squeezed" representation,=20 see=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representatio= ns-13#appendix-I.8 Ref:=20 https://github.com/EricssonResearch/CBOR-certificates/blob/master/IETF-10= 9-COSE-CBOR-Certificates.pdf On 2020-11-13 8:38 a.m., G=F6ran Selander wrote: > > Dear chairs and all, > > We uploaded slides for agenda item #3 (CBOR Certificates) of the COSE=20 > WG meeting to the current Github repo: > > https://github.com/EricssonResearch/CBOR-certificates=20 > > > https://github.com/EricssonResearch/CBOR-certificates/blob/master/IETF-= 109-COSE-CBOR-Certificates.pdf=20 > > > Note that -03 is not submitted yet, will be when the submission tool=20 > opens again, but the Editor=92s copy on the Github is up-to-date: > > https://ericssonresearch.github.io/CBOR-certificates/draft-mattsson-cos= e-cbor-cert-compress.html=20 > > > Looking forward to a good discussion! > > Best regards > > G=F6ran > > On 2020-11-03, 18:06, "COSE" wrote: > > Dear all, > > Here is a preliminary agenda for our IETF 109 session. Please let us=20 > know if you have any questions or concerns related to it. > > As a reminder the COSE WG session is scheduled for 60 minutes on=20 > Monday, 16 November starting at 7:30 UTC. > > ``` > > COSE WG Agenda > > IETF 109 - Virtual/Meetecho > > 2020-11-16 @ 7:30 UTC > > ## 0. Administrivia (Chairs) > > =A0=A0* NOTE WELL > > =A0=A0* Bluesheets > > =A0=A0* Jabber + Minutes > > =A0=A0* Agenda Bartering > > ## 1. Document Status (Chairs) > > ## 2. Countersignatures > > ## 3. Cert Compression > > ## 4. Chartering (Chairs) > > ## 5. AOB > > ``` > > -- > > Matthew and Ivaylo > > COSE Chairs > > > _______________________________________________ > COSE mailing list > COSE@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose --=20 email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 287-3867 --------------A1B2961A7D9B048992CA6B03 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi Goran:

I had a brief look at your slides posted on the Ericsson github page [1]:
- Side #11, text marked in red: the answer to this question is "yes", with small correction: n is not the size of the prime-order subgroup, not the curve order (which is h*n)
Note: for curves in question, both n and h*n have the same byte-length
- Slide #11, last line: ECDSA is defined in FIPS Pub 186-4
Note: draft FIPS Pub 186-5 stipulates that hash SHAKE has fixed output size 256 or 512 bits (see also PKIX-related blurb in lwig draft, which refers to RFC 8692 that is consisent with this. See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-11.2

- Slide #13: the lwig draft requests registration of OIDs id-Wei25519 and id-Wei448, based on IETF Last-Call comments SecDir. Those would end up with lefthandside column of this slide
See: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-12.1

As to point compression: PKIX specifies this using the SEC1 format. See https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5480#section-2.2
Note: with Wei25519, SEC1 encoding yields 33-octet strings, while "squeezed" MSB/msb-order yields 32-octet strings (for Wei448, there is no difference). See also definitions in (c) below.
In either case, there is a 1-1 map between these, so if, e.g., LAKE WG wishes to shave-off one byte over-the-air, one could do so and convert back in light-weight preprocessing of incoming packet

See (a) and (b) below for details; see (c) below for definitions.

(a) ECDSA25519 signatures:
Signature: pair (r,s), where r and s are 32-octet integers, in tight MSB/msb-order
Notes:
-this uses the same encoding principles as in same format as ECDSA/P-256/SHA-256
- "tight" means that integers r and s are represented as fixed-size strings (so, no leaving out of leading zero-octets)
-with Wei25519, n is 253-bit integer (i.e., 32-octet), see also https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#appendix-E.3
For description, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-4.3
For PKIX-related blurb, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-11.2

(b) ECDSA448 signatures:
Signature: pair (r,s), where r and s are 56-octet integers, using same encoding principles as ECDSA/P-256/SHA-56
Notes:
-this uses the same encoding principles as in same format as ECDSA/P-256/SHA-256
- "tight" means that integers r and s are represented as fixed-size strings (so, no leaving out of leading zero-octets)
-with Wei448, n is 446-bit integer (i.e., 56-octet), see also https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#appendix-M.3
For description, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-4.4
For PKIX-related blurb, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-11.2

(c) Unambiguous definitions:
For definition curve nomenclature, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#appendix-B.1
For definition of bit-length, byte-length, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#appendix-I.1
For definition of point encodings, including "squeezed" representation, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#appendix-I.8

Ref: https://github.com/EricssonResearch/CBOR-certificates/blob/master/IETF-109-COSE-CBOR-Certificates.pdf

On 2020-11-13 8:38 a.m., Göran Selander wrote:

Dear chairs and all,

 

We uploaded slides for agenda item #3 (CBOR Certificates) of the COSE WG meeting to the current Github repo:

 

https://github.com/EricssonResearch/CBOR-certificates

 

https://github.com/EricssonResearch/CBOR-certificates/blob/master/IETF-109-COSE-CBOR-Certificates.pdf

 

Note that -03 is not submitted yet, will be when the submission tool opens again, but the Editor’s copy on the Github is up-to-date:

 

https://ericssonresearch.github.io/CBOR-certificates/draft-mattsson-cose-cbor-cert-compress.html

 

 

Looking forward to a good discussion!

 

Best regards

Göran

 

 

 

 

On 2020-11-03, 18:06, "COSE" <cose-bounces@ietf.org> wrote:

Dear all,

 

Here is a preliminary agenda for our IETF 109 session. Please let us know if you have any questions or concerns related to it.

 

As a reminder the COSE WG session is scheduled for 60 minutes on Monday, 16 November starting at 7:30 UTC.

 

```

COSE WG Agenda

IETF 109 - Virtual/Meetecho

2020-11-16 @ 7:30 UTC

 

## 0. Administrivia (Chairs)

  * NOTE WELL

  * Bluesheets

  * Jabber + Minutes

  * Agenda Bartering

 

## 1. Document Status (Chairs)

 

## 2. Countersignatures

 

## 3. Cert Compression

 

## 4. Chartering (Chairs)

 

## 5. AOB

 

```

 

--

Matthew and Ivaylo

COSE Chairs


_______________________________________________
COSE mailing list
COSE@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose



-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 287-3867
--------------A1B2961A7D9B048992CA6B03-- From nobody Fri Nov 13 07:00:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 301383A0D88 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2020 07:00:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OxKkzU745J5L for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2020 07:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x734.google.com (mail-qk1-x734.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::734]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5CB73A0D7B for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2020 07:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x734.google.com with SMTP id h15so8967056qkl.13 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2020 07:00:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:from:to:references:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=QcclLB6N2Codnvm0IW5BdptgK5+IdZjSLyeGMC2k4jA=; b=hF++Ad6blzwavNFjqXlC7n7hpDbS3fiRk2BrMw7JVBvbzXE6p8wih4bYrKcBePHzmX P9B76q38HNPJ6Wb5i789xsRAT4miYL0Fuu2EyNoWbBjnU2LGBRGvOBJMujimkrhZhN5u Qbj2UAFe/Hk7R58jMEUjqGcmDkdgC4909D8g90X3zDGr06WOBIRm9H5YSyKB+PCszVlR /g670gb6T9j88yvKBsG20/08LwV/EXEwktx93vqme6KysLJeF3sdiE3FYvz3eMqfB1RP C9iSJsj6WysuCZVvw+sXRF3VwxVUj0srMtUbtdeK/8vaP5WOivqLRSO1pUEmVQYr9+nx U/uw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:from:to:references:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=QcclLB6N2Codnvm0IW5BdptgK5+IdZjSLyeGMC2k4jA=; b=erCMjLznAqVIzhQdUA9YBBnnRXJmSnZt6rJt9C2LJWLsI47TFcA6+I0VPT5B4rW+5I r8S6RnGv2klcCfLYamgy1gI+dOLkT2vW2yWm8lYuhTArmljuTUpa7l11C6OS0nhDye5k CnxLXLBLyJBbrviAewESb1i0/85Uj01NKIsAw4Yi+V9xcZ5RWKBU9ZJTT4bWvca1Y2ye 64UD24WF2FQQaIAGAGnODobOjE19501B/jf2xog1fEbis9aGeLotu2kaUgHGghUEltvB ISC8IzST9v9HawR8iXv3C/bORTfw76tLKiYtO8QmiXLdOPDMBWqRilH0ZcWlCrPmMItO l7mQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531rKDktxU2JXcOVvpGTrTs/Ah0ggQlf08PEKj+V96SN/IDxG4pX b4iupC/QhOTjRz8sgRA56xR5vO5h+W8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy6ZlgA39TIxQYqsVcf1E2umj8B8cZ23gGG9hnteP/N3cQolEo8GG6PplLtgfaC22uDSf69ZA== X-Received: by 2002:a37:7687:: with SMTP id r129mr2295438qkc.54.1605279627465; Fri, 13 Nov 2020 07:00:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2607:fea8:8a0:1397:fc5f:12b:d173:619a? ([2607:fea8:8a0:1397:fc5f:12b:d173:619a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o189sm7200802qkf.34.2020.11.13.07.00.26 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 13 Nov 2020 07:00:26 -0800 (PST) From: Rene Struik To: =?UTF-8?Q?G=c3=b6ran_Selander?= , Ivaylo Petrov , "Matthew A. Miller" , cose References: Message-ID: <6d6fe7eb-8ae4-5b9a-9129-cbedc946337e@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 10:00:25 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------11AD12EAF4905B4372312B6B" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] (feedback on Wei25519/Wei448-related stuff) Re: Preliminary Agenda and Call for Items @ IETF 109 X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 15:00:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------11AD12EAF4905B4372312B6B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit small correction: the word "not" in "n is not the size of the prime-order subgroup" should obviously not be there On 2020-11-13 9:57 a.m., Rene Struik wrote: > Hi Goran: > > I had a brief look at your slides posted on the Ericsson github page [1]: > - Side #11, text marked in red: the answer to this question is "yes", > with small correction: n is not the size of the prime-order subgroup, > not the curve order (which is h*n) > Note: for curves in question, both n and h*n have the same byte-length > - Slide #11, last line: ECDSA is defined in FIPS Pub 186-4 > Note: draft FIPS Pub 186-5 stipulates that hash SHAKE has fixed output > size 256 or 512 bits (see also PKIX-related blurb in lwig draft, which > refers to RFC 8692 that is consisent with this. See > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-11.2 > > - Slide #13: the lwig draft requests registration of OIDs id-Wei25519 > and id-Wei448, based on IETF Last-Call comments SecDir. Those would > end up with lefthandside column of this slide > See: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-12.1 > > As to point compression: PKIX specifies this using the SEC1 format. > See https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5480#section-2.2 > Note: with Wei25519, SEC1 encoding yields 33-octet strings, while > "squeezed" MSB/msb-order yields 32-octet strings (for Wei448, there is > no difference). See also definitions in (c) below. > In either case, there is a 1-1 map between these, so if, e.g., LAKE WG > wishes to shave-off one byte over-the-air, one could do so and convert > back in light-weight preprocessing of incoming packet > > See (a) and (b) below for details; see (c) below for definitions. > > (a) ECDSA25519 signatures: > Signature: pair (r,s), where r and s are 32-octet integers, in tight > MSB/msb-order > Notes: > -this uses the same encoding principles as in same format as > ECDSA/P-256/SHA-256 > - "tight" means that integers r and s are represented as fixed-size > strings (so, no leaving out of leading zero-octets) > -with Wei25519, n is 253-bit integer (i.e., 32-octet), see also > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#appendix-E.3 > For description, see > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-4.3 > For PKIX-related blurb, see > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-11.2 > > (b) ECDSA448 signatures: > Signature: pair (r,s), where r and s are 56-octet integers, using same > encoding principles as ECDSA/P-256/SHA-56 > Notes: > -this uses the same encoding principles as in same format as > ECDSA/P-256/SHA-256 > - "tight" means that integers r and s are represented as fixed-size > strings (so, no leaving out of leading zero-octets) > -with Wei448, n is 446-bit integer (i.e., 56-octet), see also > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#appendix-M.3 > For description, see > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-4.4 > For PKIX-related blurb, see > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-11.2 > > > (c) Unambiguous definitions: > For definition curve nomenclature, see > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#appendix-B.1 > For definition of bit-length, byte-length, see > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#appendix-I.1 > For definition of point encodings, including "squeezed" > representation, see > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#appendix-I.8 > > Ref: > https://github.com/EricssonResearch/CBOR-certificates/blob/master/IETF-109-COSE-CBOR-Certificates.pdf > > On 2020-11-13 8:38 a.m., Göran Selander wrote: >> >> Dear chairs and all, >> >> We uploaded slides for agenda item #3 (CBOR Certificates) of the COSE >> WG meeting to the current Github repo: >> >> https://github.com/EricssonResearch/CBOR-certificates >> >> >> https://github.com/EricssonResearch/CBOR-certificates/blob/master/IETF-109-COSE-CBOR-Certificates.pdf >> >> >> Note that -03 is not submitted yet, will be when the submission tool >> opens again, but the Editor’s copy on the Github is up-to-date: >> >> https://ericssonresearch.github.io/CBOR-certificates/draft-mattsson-cose-cbor-cert-compress.html >> >> >> Looking forward to a good discussion! >> >> Best regards >> >> Göran >> >> On 2020-11-03, 18:06, "COSE" wrote: >> >> Dear all, >> >> Here is a preliminary agenda for our IETF 109 session. Please let us >> know if you have any questions or concerns related to it. >> >> As a reminder the COSE WG session is scheduled for 60 minutes on >> Monday, 16 November starting at 7:30 UTC. >> >> ``` >> >> COSE WG Agenda >> >> IETF 109 - Virtual/Meetecho >> >> 2020-11-16 @ 7:30 UTC >> >> ## 0. Administrivia (Chairs) >> >>   * NOTE WELL >> >>   * Bluesheets >> >>   * Jabber + Minutes >> >>   * Agenda Bartering >> >> ## 1. Document Status (Chairs) >> >> ## 2. Countersignatures >> >> ## 3. Cert Compression >> >> ## 4. Chartering (Chairs) >> >> ## 5. AOB >> >> ``` >> >> -- >> >> Matthew and Ivaylo >> >> COSE Chairs >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> COSE mailing list >> COSE@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose > > > -- > email:rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik > cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 287-3867 -- email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 287-3867 --------------11AD12EAF4905B4372312B6B Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
small correction: the word "not" in "n is not the size of the prime-order subgroup" should obviously not be there

On 2020-11-13 9:57 a.m., Rene Struik wrote:
Hi Goran:

I had a brief look at your slides posted on the Ericsson github page [1]:
- Side #11, text marked in red: the answer to this question is "yes", with small correction: n is not the size of the prime-order subgroup, not the curve order (which is h*n)
Note: for curves in question, both n and h*n have the same byte-length
- Slide #11, last line: ECDSA is defined in FIPS Pub 186-4
Note: draft FIPS Pub 186-5 stipulates that hash SHAKE has fixed output size 256 or 512 bits (see also PKIX-related blurb in lwig draft, which refers to RFC 8692 that is consisent with this. See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-11.2

- Slide #13: the lwig draft requests registration of OIDs id-Wei25519 and id-Wei448, based on IETF Last-Call comments SecDir. Those would end up with lefthandside column of this slide
See: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-12.1

As to point compression: PKIX specifies this using the SEC1 format. See https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5480#section-2.2
Note: with Wei25519, SEC1 encoding yields 33-octet strings, while "squeezed" MSB/msb-order yields 32-octet strings (for Wei448, there is no difference). See also definitions in (c) below.
In either case, there is a 1-1 map between these, so if, e.g., LAKE WG wishes to shave-off one byte over-the-air, one could do so and convert back in light-weight preprocessing of incoming packet

See (a) and (b) below for details; see (c) below for definitions.

(a) ECDSA25519 signatures:
Signature: pair (r,s), where r and s are 32-octet integers, in tight MSB/msb-order
Notes:
-this uses the same encoding principles as in same format as ECDSA/P-256/SHA-256
- "tight" means that integers r and s are represented as fixed-size strings (so, no leaving out of leading zero-octets)
-with Wei25519, n is 253-bit integer (i.e., 32-octet), see also https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#appendix-E.3
For description, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-4.3
For PKIX-related blurb, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-11.2

(b) ECDSA448 signatures:
Signature: pair (r,s), where r and s are 56-octet integers, using same encoding principles as ECDSA/P-256/SHA-56
Notes:
-this uses the same encoding principles as in same format as ECDSA/P-256/SHA-256
- "tight" means that integers r and s are represented as fixed-size strings (so, no leaving out of leading zero-octets)
-with Wei448, n is 446-bit integer (i.e., 56-octet), see also https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#appendix-M.3
For description, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-4.4
For PKIX-related blurb, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#section-11.2

(c) Unambiguous definitions:
For definition curve nomenclature, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#appendix-B.1
For definition of bit-length, byte-length, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#appendix-I.1
For definition of point encodings, including "squeezed" representation, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-13#appendix-I.8

Ref: https://github.com/EricssonResearch/CBOR-certificates/blob/master/IETF-109-COSE-CBOR-Certificates.pdf

On 2020-11-13 8:38 a.m., Göran Selander wrote:

Dear chairs and all,

 

We uploaded slides for agenda item #3 (CBOR Certificates) of the COSE WG meeting to the current Github repo:

 

https://github.com/EricssonResearch/CBOR-certificates

 

https://github.com/EricssonResearch/CBOR-certificates/blob/master/IETF-109-COSE-CBOR-Certificates.pdf

 

Note that -03 is not submitted yet, will be when the submission tool opens again, but the Editor’s copy on the Github is up-to-date:

 

https://ericssonresearch.github.io/CBOR-certificates/draft-mattsson-cose-cbor-cert-compress.html

 

 

Looking forward to a good discussion!

 

Best regards

Göran

 

 

 

 

On 2020-11-03, 18:06, "COSE" <cose-bounces@ietf.org> wrote:

Dear all,

 

Here is a preliminary agenda for our IETF 109 session. Please let us know if you have any questions or concerns related to it.

 

As a reminder the COSE WG session is scheduled for 60 minutes on Monday, 16 November starting at 7:30 UTC.

 

```

COSE WG Agenda

IETF 109 - Virtual/Meetecho

2020-11-16 @ 7:30 UTC

 

## 0. Administrivia (Chairs)

  * NOTE WELL

  * Bluesheets

  * Jabber + Minutes

  * Agenda Bartering

 

## 1. Document Status (Chairs)

 

## 2. Countersignatures

 

## 3. Cert Compression

 

## 4. Chartering (Chairs)

 

## 5. AOB

 

```

 

--

Matthew and Ivaylo

COSE Chairs


_______________________________________________
COSE mailing list
COSE@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose



-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 287-3867


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
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Sun, 15 Nov 2020 10:03:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <37c16acadc7b7d6da0789ad8a21c4ca9050c361a.camel@rkf-eng.com> In-Reply-To: <37c16acadc7b7d6da0789ad8a21c4ca9050c361a.camel@rkf-eng.com> From: Ivaylo Petrov Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 19:03:01 +0100 Message-ID: To: Brian Sipos Cc: "cose@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000141d3905b42914cd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] draft-ietf-cose-x509-07 x5chain and x5bag in COSE_Key X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 18:03:34 -0000 --000000000000141d3905b42914cd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello Brian, I apologize for the delay. Thank you for reaching out! As the current editor of the cose-x509 draft I will try to provide some answers below. Cheers, Ivaylo On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 7:44 PM Brian Sipos wrote: > All, > While investigating the use of COSE within another proposed security > protocol [1] I ran into a use case which is not discussed as a > possibility in the last draft-ietf-cose-x509 [2]: providing a > certificate chain or bag within a COSE_Key (or COSE_KeySet) structure. > [IP]: My understanding is that the idea of the author was that it is better not to provide too many constraints on how the new header parameters are used when that is not needed. Could you explain if the way x5chain or x5bag somehow prevent you from efficiently using them? > This particular use case is because a there will likely be many > signatures present from the same private key associated with an end- > entity certificate, and the message encoding of [1] allows security > "parameter" data to be encoded once and used for multiple security > operations. The idea is that the x5chain would be provided once (as a > COSE_Key) and then each COSE_Sign1 would contain an x5t associated with > the end-entity certificate. This would avoid needing to include a > duplicate x5chain in each of the COSE_Sign1 structures, which would > bloat the size of the encoded signatures. > [IP]: I am not sure I understood this correctly, so let me try to rephrase it. In your protocol the security context is split in two parts. One that is transmitted with each message and one that is not (it is in a way static). Your idea is to have the certificate that the protocol needs as the "static" part and then in each message to send a x5t parameter to refer to this certificate instead of each time including the complete certificate. If that is the case, that sounds very reasonable to me, but is there anything in the current draft preventing you from doing that? Is there a technical reason why x5chain or x5bag are inappropriate to > use within a COSE_Key structure? > There seems to be nothing prohibiting this in [2] but also nothing > advocating for this kind of use. The encoding itself could use the > existing code points assigned for x5chain and x5bag Header Parameters > sub-registry [3] and assign a new "X.509 Certificate" (or some other > appropriate name) codepoint Key Types sub-registry [4]. > Here again I don't think I fully understand your question. It appears to me that you suggest that x5bag let's say will be placed inside a COSE_Key structure. My understanding is that you could use a way to refer to a certificate that would be used for the cryptographic operations instead of referring to the key in another way. As an alternative, my use could provide for either COSE_Key or > x5chain/x5bag but that runs into use of codepoints from multiple > registries for the same purpose, which seems confusing. And I feel like > this certificate-as-public-key seems more general purpose than my use > in [1]. > > Thanks for any clarification, > Brian S. > > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bsipos-dtn-bpsec-cose-02 > [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-x509-07 > [3] https://www.iana.org/assignments/cose/cose.xhtml#header-parameters > [4] https://www.iana.org/assignments/cose/cose.xhtml#key-type > _______________________________________________ > COSE mailing list > COSE@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose > --000000000000141d3905b42914cd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello=C2=A0Brian,
=
I apologize for the delay. Thank you for reaching out! A= s the current editor of the cose-x509 draft I will try to provide some answ= ers below.

Cheers,
Ivaylo

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 7:44 PM Brian Sipos <BSipos@rkf-eng.com> wrote:
All,
While investigating the use of COSE within another proposed security
protocol [1] I ran into a use case which is not discussed as a
possibility in the last draft-ietf-cose-x509 [2]: providing a
certificate chain or bag within a COSE_Key (or COSE_KeySet) structure.
<= /blockquote>

[IP]: My understanding is t= hat the idea of the author was that it is better not to provide too many co= nstraints on how the new header parameters are used when that is not needed= . Could you explain if the way x5chain=C2=A0or x5bag somehow prevent you fr= om efficiently using them?
=C2=A0
This particular use case is because a there will likely be many
signatures present from the same private key associated with an end-
entity certificate, and the message encoding of [1] allows security
"parameter" data to be encoded once and used for multiple securit= y
operations. The idea is that the x5chain would be provided once (as a
COSE_Key) and then each COSE_Sign1 would contain an x5t associated with
the end-entity certificate. This would avoid needing to include a
duplicate x5chain in each of the COSE_Sign1 structures, which would
bloat the size of the encoded signatures.

[IP]: I am not sure I understood this correctly, so let me tr= y to rephrase it. In your protocol the security context is split in two par= ts. One that is transmitted with each message and one that is not (it is in= a way static). Your idea is to have the certificate that the protocol need= s as the=C2=A0"static" part and then in each message to send a x5= t parameter to refer to this certificate instead of each time including the= complete certificate. If that is the case, that sounds very reasonable to = me, but is there=C2=A0anything in the current draft preventing you from doi= ng that?

Is there a technical reason why x5chain or x5bag are inappropriate to
use within a COSE_Key structure?
There seems to be nothing prohibiting this in [2] but also nothing
advocating for this kind of use. The encoding itself could use the
existing code points assigned for x5chain and x5bag Header Parameters
sub-registry [3] and assign a new "X.509 Certificate" (or some ot= her
appropriate name) codepoint Key Types sub-registry [4].

Here again I don't think I fully understand= your question. It appears to me that you suggest that x5bag let's say = will be placed inside a COSE_Key structure. My understanding is that you co= uld use a way to refer to a certificate that would be used for the cryptogr= aphic operations instead of referring to the key in another way.

As an alternative, my use could provide for either COSE_Key or
x5chain/x5bag but that runs into use of codepoints from multiple
registries for the same purpose, which seems confusing. And I feel like
this certificate-as-public-key seems more general purpose than my use
in [1].

Thanks for any clarification,
Brian S.

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bsip= os-dtn-bpsec-cose-02
[2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-x= 509-07
[3] https://www.iana.org/assignmen= ts/cose/cose.xhtml#header-parameters
[4] https://www.iana.org/assignments/cose/c= ose.xhtml#key-type
_______________________________________________
COSE mailing list
COSE@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
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([2607:fea8:8a0:1397:bd98:a497:41a8:c6ee]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l91sm10879296qte.28.2020.11.15.16.10.27 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 15 Nov 2020 16:10:27 -0800 (PST) To: John Mattsson , "cose@ietf.org" References: From: Rene Struik Message-ID: <25f30727-141b-be67-7b0e-33ab07973358@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 19:10:26 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] COSE Algorithms Register Thoughts X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 00:10:31 -0000 Hi John: I uploaded a new version of the lwig curve draft [1], changing the intended status to "standards track". I hope this helps. Best regards, Rene Ref: [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lwig-curve-representations-14 PS: The data tracker still shows this as informational, but I presume changing the intended status there requires an action by a gate keeper (working group chair, or similar). On 2020-11-14 2:47 p.m., John Mattsson wrote: > Hi, > > > - Looking through the COSE Algorithms registry, I find that there are three different models for ECC signatures: > > 1. ES256 = ECDSA + SHA-256 > ES384 = ECDSA + SHA-384 > ES512 = ECDSA + SHA-512 > Curve specified elsewhere. > > 2. EdDSA = EdDSA > Curve specified elsewhere > Hash algortithm determined by curve. > > 3. ES256K = ECDSA + SHA-256 + secp256k1 > Curve and hash algorithm included. > > Is there any reason why ES256K was specified like this? My understanding is that 1. and 2. follow PKIX but not 3. My understanding is that that ECDSA + SHA-256 + secp256k1 in PKIX would be specified in the same way as ECDSA + SHA-256 + secp256r1 > > id-ecPublicKey + secp256k1 > ecdsa-with-SHA256 > > > - The COSE registries allow registration labels with a 1, 2, or 3 byte CBOR encoding. The registry differentiates between 2 and 3 byte encodings, but the registry does not differentiate between 1 and 2 byte encodings. Integers in the range [-24,23] have a one byte encoding. > > A lot of a algorithms not suitable for constrained IoT such as HMAC 512/512, A256GCM, A256KW, direct+HKDF-SHA-512, etc. have been given 1 byte identifiers. These should maybe have been saved for algorithms that constrained IoT will likely use. > > ECDSA25519 is targeting constrained IoT and should probably be given a 1 byte label, which is can't get unless the draft is changed to standards track. > > > Cheers, > John > > _______________________________________________ > COSE mailing list > COSE@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose -- email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 287-3867 From nobody Sun Nov 15 23:04:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9198C3A147D for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:04:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.101 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, PDS_TONAME_EQ_TOLOCAL_SHORT=2, PDS_TONAME_EQ_TOLOCAL_VSHORT=0.999, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c1eMfUsMSRAs for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DED33A1476 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcb31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.203.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CZKnS187vzyT0; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 08:04:28 +0100 (CET) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 627203067.7129509-3cda01efa1729b9dc48e417dfebadf24 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 08:04:27 +0100 Message-Id: <55482075-8671-4808-9841-391B6554E389@tzi.org> To: cose X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [COSE] Slide numbers, please X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 07:04:34 -0000 Could people making slides for COSE please include slide numbers? Thanks. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sun Nov 15 23:09:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A7843A14A3 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:09:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, PDS_TONAME_EQ_TOLOCAL_SHORT=2, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r1MnhwM1daB4 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:09:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 428B83A149F for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:09:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcb31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.203.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CZKvg27DjzyT6; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 08:09:51 +0100 (CET) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 627203390.850669-b5df5fd507d0fd5cba006b92286c568b Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 08:09:50 +0100 Message-Id: <85785907-8B8C-4ABE-996D-8E00D3E4295A@tzi.org> To: cose X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [COSE] =?utf-8?q?Two_nits_on=C2=A0cert_=22compression=22?= X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 07:09:56 -0000 (1) I hope when we adopt this we can get rid of the =E2=80=9Ccompress=E2=80= =9D in the file name. (2) While bignum support is not universal, support for DER-encoded large = integers is even less so. What you want is ~biguint, which is an = unwrapped unsigned (non-negative) integer represented as a byte string. = (So not a lot of change, except no weird encoding exceptions for DER = sign bits.) 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Mon, 16 Nov 2020 07:25:17 +0000 From: John Mattsson To: Carsten Bormann , cose Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W0NPU0VdIFR3byBuaXRzIG9uwqBjZXJ0ICJjb21wcmVzc2lvbiI=?= Thread-Index: AQHWu+eH70Yk4JArTU6D8Uyf6ysCvqnKbDiA Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 07:25:17 +0000 Message-ID: <30151DA2-532F-43F7-8AFE-957B2439E817@ericsson.com> References: <85785907-8B8C-4ABE-996D-8E00D3E4295A@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <85785907-8B8C-4ABE-996D-8E00D3E4295A@tzi.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.42.20101102 authentication-results: tzi.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;tzi.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [81.225.97.222] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b5eb7ec5-c58c-4a4b-a86a-08d88a00c4bf x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM7PR07MB6391: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <725E693B284C03478715297C422A9016@eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM6PR07MB4584.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b5eb7ec5-c58c-4a4b-a86a-08d88a00c4bf X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Nov 2020 07:25:17.7233 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: aJX+TB761oUBW3V/U98gc/E011WrkThAMc+f0VL+7wep80p9HnrLUmccEpr+AHuMGZ4zWRyZUakDz1Bl0oowoYr46SNaDzpL988ZFave/Ws= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM7PR07MB6391 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] =?utf-8?q?Two_nits_on=C2=A0cert_=22compression=22?= X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 07:25:25 -0000 KDEpIEFncmVlLCB3ZSBzaG91bGQgY2hhbmdlIHRoYXQgYXMgd2VsbC4gV2UganVzdCBjaGFuZ2Vk IHRoZSB0aXRsZSwgbGV0J3MgY2hhbmdlIHRoZSBmaWxlIG5hbWUgaW4gdGhlIGZ1dHVyZS4NCg0K KDIpLiBUaGF0IHNvdW5kcyBsaWtlIGEgZ29vZCBpZGVhLiBJZiBJIHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgeW91IGNv cnJlY3RseSwgdGhpcyB3b3VsZCBvbmx5IGJlIGEgY2hhbmdlIHRvIHRoZSBDRERMLiBNeSB1bmRl cnN0YW5kaW5nIGlzIHRoYXQgd2UgYXJlIG90aGVyd2lzZSBhbHJlYWR5IGRvaW5nICJ1bndyYXBw ZWQgYmlndWludCB+YmlndWludCIgd2l0aG91dCBERVIgc2lnbiBiaXRzLiANCg0KSm9obg0KDQrv u78tLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogQ09TRSA8Y29zZS1ib3VuY2VzQGll dGYub3JnPiBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2YgQ2Fyc3RlbiBCb3JtYW5uIDxjYWJvQHR6aS5vcmc+DQpEYXRl OiBNb25kYXksIDE2IE5vdmVtYmVyIDIwMjAgYXQgMDg6MTANClRvOiBjb3NlIDxjb3NlQGlldGYu b3JnPg0KU3ViamVjdDogW0NPU0VdIFR3byBuaXRzIG9uIGNlcnQgImNvbXByZXNzaW9uIg0KDQoo MSkgSSBob3BlIHdoZW4gd2UgYWRvcHQgdGhpcyB3ZSBjYW4gZ2V0IHJpZCBvZiB0aGUg4oCcY29t cHJlc3PigJ0gaW4gdGhlIGZpbGUgbmFtZS4NCg0KKDIpIFdoaWxlIGJpZ251bSBzdXBwb3J0IGlz IG5vdCB1bml2ZXJzYWwsIHN1cHBvcnQgZm9yIERFUi1lbmNvZGVkIGxhcmdlIGludGVnZXJzIGlz IGV2ZW4gbGVzcyBzby4gIFdoYXQgeW91IHdhbnQgaXMgfmJpZ3VpbnQsIHdoaWNoIGlzIGFuIHVu d3JhcHBlZCB1bnNpZ25lZCAobm9uLW5lZ2F0aXZlKSBpbnRlZ2VyIHJlcHJlc2VudGVkIGFzIGEg Ynl0ZSBzdHJpbmcuICAoU28gbm90IGEgbG90IG9mIGNoYW5nZSwgZXhjZXB0IG5vIHdlaXJkIGVu Y29kaW5nIGV4Y2VwdGlvbnMgZm9yIERFUiBzaWduIGJpdHMuKQ0KDQpHcsO8w59lLCBDYXJzdGVu DQoNCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQpDT1NF IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KQ09TRUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1h bi9saXN0aW5mby9jb3NlDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Nov 16 02:32:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 070043A0128 for ; 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Mon, 16 Nov 2020 05:32:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (pool-141-156-161-153.washdc.fios.verizon.net [141.156.161.153]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5A808300AA4 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 05:32:47 -0500 (EST) From: Russ Housley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 05:32:48 -0500 References: <947BBD8D-7BF0-477A-8954-1EFCEBC7170E@vigilsec.com> <10020.1602108879@localhost> <5E50CD24-FA0D-431A-BD1A-CFCFD2441732@vigilsec.com> <6549.1602369371@localhost> To: cose In-Reply-To: <6549.1602369371@localhost> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] cose-countersignatures X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 10:32:53 -0000 Based on the discussion at the meeting earlier today, I put together a PR: https://github.com/cose-wg/countersign/pull/2 Comments are most welcome. Russ From nobody Mon Nov 16 13:21:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 772E93A1481 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 13:21:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bLiZYF-A9xKv for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 13:21:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [23.123.122.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 007B13A147C for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 13:21:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7150662653 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 16:21:20 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id g506E01mTxvx for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 16:21:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from lx140e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 30450625F7 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 16:21:13 -0500 (EST) To: cose@ietf.org From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <5d963e0b-e045-907e-426c-bdb0781d0a90@htt-consult.com> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 16:21:09 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [COSE] Comments on SHAKE usage in draft-ietf-cose-hash-algs-09.txt X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 21:21:23 -0000 I appologize for only reviewing this draft now.  My focus has been on DRIP where I have been using Keccak derived functions... Review and suggested editorial additions to sec 3.3: "The length of the hash value stored is 256-bits    for SHAKE-128 and 512-bits for SHAKE-256." I am reading this as there is a field where the length of the hash output is carried, and it is 256 bits long for SHAKE-128 and 512-bits for SHAKE-256.  This is extreme overkill and would only be justified in a protocol that is concerned about bits on the wire if these are the sizes of these fields for other algorithms.  A length field of 8 bits would handle a hash length of 255 bits, so the max needed should only be 12 bits. But if this is what is used elsewhere and simplfies coding, I can see why it was specified this way, but it is a bad choice for bits on the wire, or the meaning of the text is wrong. Perhaps it should be: "The hash length of the hash value is stored in 256-bits    for SHAKE-128 and 512-bits for SHAKE-256." If the meaning is this is the fixed SIZE of the hash outputs, I would clear up the text as follows: "Although SHAKE can create any length hash, here it is fixed. The fixed length of the hash value stored is 256-bits    for SHAKE-128 and 512-bits for SHAKE-256." Obviously, I as an outside reader that has worked with Keccak functions is confused.  What about readers that have not spent time with the various Keccak functions? Now if your intent is a variable length hash support, then the Security Considerations needs to reflect the warning in FIPS 202, Appendix A.1 and A.2: "The security strengths for SHAKE are provided in [FIPS 202], Appendix A.1, Table 4. Further, considering Appendix A.2, note that SHAKE has the potential for generating related outputs—a property that designers of security applications/protocols/systems may not expect of hash functions.  This property is important to consider in the development of applications of SHAKE.  If an attacker is able to induce one of the parties to use a different value for keylength, say 168 bits, but the same value for hashmaterial, then the two parties will end up with the following hashs: SHAKE128(hashmaterial, 112) = fg SHAKE128(hashmaterial, 168) = fgh, By incorporating the length of the output and/or other information with the message input to the hash, a disagreement or misunderstanding between two users of SHAKE about the length of the hash they are deriving would almost certainly not lead to related outputs." Thank you for your consideration. Robert Moskowitz From nobody Mon Nov 16 17:03:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F5723A17D7 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 17:03:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jg6P96d5SAfH for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 17:03:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-x530.google.com (mail-ed1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 952D33A17D6 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 17:03:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-x530.google.com with SMTP id q16so5498334edv.10 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 17:03:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=tLP1TWfSdv0yqWBMJjANtAUgNchbLQfSG9m3PYdOo5k=; b=K9Mo9OOBXaGr1N3WQ1hgdnUpM8VIqSk1/xlNspyJccDJx9OWEP1Nh6/wKy0Qu14fwU Pe6W4fBVncljCm1pEBsmq6nfeUHokr76Ojx4JQD7X6wWjXyFuLj1LPpZdzd3b4GVQT4O wcYnT4X2QyfHmhVmRjScsjumZD5viPskaJ6TEvLD/asHdp7YNNpsIYGLnwT7tmNkXbOB gMkIFMBoXcVycHGCw1RtR6bpqmx0uvZT69e3Yg3c/BX0NW9xyPzA1G+lKBd4K4iPSQH+ UmDvOO0XVXVmBjYyPNBmiWaEMe2plld0GsLZxpqqMafsHTsvIallWSqsurCR/LVOoizG 3pOg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=tLP1TWfSdv0yqWBMJjANtAUgNchbLQfSG9m3PYdOo5k=; b=S8tNvXHeEJRhGi2n5m7FD2txWJy/YIk5bMeE4jcafqQH9C+y7gdVAChmDL36ymsJPY o2ZMfGGsznBo/pJ/3WDv37x9siFF3FDg9Er2FkKR0LBRQkOp01mVOgth5de/6e+4G4pF QanJ0NxXnUVvlNEnqJUMVSnzpMtRccwrhyvRTMiT19w7HIn0X1s26KjyN2hI/icODxpW +LfBBKK+6nUYmmYH81edEPjAN7vfHkPYHw2c75t24IRElUNtNE8ImucOL7bU0DZa4pQS ed3GAV4BqeGKEGt9Byt9k5nAODy3qB0xq8c2Vg9ELX53nLyx/jET25rrzOasTcDXXZyu JT7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5301idPr2hbBOUED91XjRSaRCUvB6KFUKbHdP/viElrBOtRqQoO8 Els7O5gvtHpA6L4l+IfXtDUE8OSWYcGaq7ZHCX6nhQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwmC5WG+wCIqL6fAdVgD7H8RWURJd5g0gCscgsF8H7joewbSJD1RkFNLBfPik7oCpzF5DQ7q4RK2J+fh1TmzVI= X-Received: by 2002:a50:eb96:: with SMTP id y22mr18952481edr.116.1605575011609; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 17:03:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5d963e0b-e045-907e-426c-bdb0781d0a90@htt-consult.com> In-Reply-To: <5d963e0b-e045-907e-426c-bdb0781d0a90@htt-consult.com> From: Matthew Miller Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 18:03:20 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Moskowitz Cc: cose Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] Comments on SHAKE usage in draft-ietf-cose-hash-algs-09.txt X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 01:03:36 -0000 [with no hat yet] Thank you for the review and suggestions, Bob. They are welcome, even if a bit belated. The intent in this document is a fixed-length hash. With your suggested text, I believe that changes the third paragraph in Section 3.3 to: """ Unlike the SHA-2 hash functions, no algorithm identifier is created for shorter lengths. Although SHAKE can create any length hash, here it is fixed. The fixed length of the hash value stored is 256-bits for SHAKE-128 and 512-bits for SHAKE-256. """ Since the intent is a fixed-length, it does not seem to me the suggested additions to the Security Considerations are needed. Is that a correct read? - m&m Matthew A. Miller On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 2:21 PM Robert Moskowitz wrote: > > I appologize for only reviewing this draft now. My focus has been on > DRIP where I have been using Keccak derived functions... > > Review and suggested editorial additions to sec 3.3: > > "The length of the hash value stored is 256-bits > for SHAKE-128 and 512-bits for SHAKE-256." > > I am reading this as there is a field where the length of the hash > output is carried, and it is 256 bits long for SHAKE-128 and 512-bits > for SHAKE-256. This is extreme overkill and would only be justified in > a protocol that is concerned about bits on the wire if these are the > sizes of these fields for other algorithms. A length field of 8 bits > would handle a hash length of 255 bits, so the max needed should only be > 12 bits. > > But if this is what is used elsewhere and simplfies coding, I can see > why it was specified this way, but it is a bad choice for bits on the > wire, or the meaning of the text is wrong. > > Perhaps it should be: > > "The hash length of the hash value is stored in 256-bits > for SHAKE-128 and 512-bits for SHAKE-256." > > > If the meaning is this is the fixed SIZE of the hash outputs, I would > clear up the text as follows: > > "Although SHAKE can create any length hash, here it is fixed. > The fixed length of the hash value stored is 256-bits > for SHAKE-128 and 512-bits for SHAKE-256." > > Obviously, I as an outside reader that has worked with Keccak functions > is confused. What about readers that have not spent time with the > various Keccak functions? > > Now if your intent is a variable length hash support, then the Security > Considerations needs to reflect the warning in FIPS 202, Appendix A.1 > and A.2: > > "The security strengths for SHAKE are provided in [FIPS 202], Appendix > A.1, Table 4. Further, considering Appendix A.2, note that SHAKE has the > potential for generating related outputs=E2=80=94a property that designer= s of > security applications/protocols/systems may not expect of hash > functions. This property is important to consider in the development of > applications of SHAKE. If an attacker is able to induce one of the > parties to use a different value for keylength, say 168 bits, but the > same value for hashmaterial, then the two parties will end up with the > following hashs: > > SHAKE128(hashmaterial, 112) =3D fg > SHAKE128(hashmaterial, 168) =3D fgh, > > By incorporating the length of the output and/or other information with > the message input to the hash, a disagreement or misunderstanding > between two users of SHAKE about the length of the hash they are > deriving would almost certainly not lead to > related outputs." > > Thank you for your consideration. > > Robert Moskowitz > > _______________________________________________ > COSE mailing list > COSE@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose From nobody Mon Nov 16 18:06:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEB193A1882 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 18:06:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OL-U7RrIT7_J for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 18:06:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [23.123.122.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4908F3A1881 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 18:06:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 631A162653 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 21:06:38 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id xjpZmWf-fPPL for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 21:06:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from lx140e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 04622625F7 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 21:06:26 -0500 (EST) To: cose@ietf.org References: <5d963e0b-e045-907e-426c-bdb0781d0a90@htt-consult.com> From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <43f17aa1-2ac5-43fb-81fc-0e017d6aa0c1@htt-consult.com> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 21:06:22 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] Comments on SHAKE usage in draft-ietf-cose-hash-algs-09.txt X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 02:06:45 -0000 Matt, Your text merges my comment well into the original and I feel that outside readers will get it right. Since your intent is fixed length, there is no need to add to the Security Considerations section. On 11/16/20 8:03 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: > [with no hat yet] > > Thank you for the review and suggestions, Bob. They are welcome, even > if a bit belated. > > The intent in this document is a fixed-length hash. With your > suggested text, I believe that changes the third paragraph in Section > 3.3 to:https://www.linkedin.com/comm/in/richlangston?midToken=AQFG4x8T0hPDDw&midSig=051yXA7iyTkpw1&trk=eml-email_m2m_invite_single_01-hero-4-prof%7Ecta&trkEmail=eml-email_m2m_invite_single_01-hero-4-prof%7Ecta-null-6fvyf1%7Ekhlarqf3%7Eol-null-neptune%2Fprofile%7Evanity%2Eview&lipi=urn%3Ali%3Apage%3Aemail_email_m2m_invite_single_01%3BLqJbZZv6Rw%2B6dvfcy%2BAssA%3D%3DMatt > > """ > Unlike the SHA-2 hash functions, no algorithm identifier is created > for shorter lengths. Although SHAKE can create any length hash, here > it is fixed. The fixed length of the hash value stored is 256-bits > for SHAKE-128 and 512-bits for SHAKE-256. > """ > > Since the intent is a fixed-length, it does not seem to me the > suggested additions to the Security Considerations are needed. Is > that a correct read? > > > - m&m > Matthew A. Miller > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 2:21 PM Robert Moskowitz > wrote: >> I appologize for only reviewing this draft now. My focus has been on >> DRIP where I have been using Keccak derived functions... >> >> Review and suggested editorial additions to sec 3.3: >> >> "The length of the hash value stored is 256-bits >> for SHAKE-128 and 512-bits for SHAKE-256." >> >> I am reading this as there is a field where the length of the hash >> output is carried, and it is 256 bits long for SHAKE-128 and 512-bits >> for SHAKE-256. This is extreme overkill and would only be justified in >> a protocol that is concerned about bits on the wire if these are the >> sizes of these fields for other algorithms. A length field of 8 bits >> would handle a hash length of 255 bits, so the max needed should only be >> 12 bits. >> >> But if this is what is used elsewhere and simplfies coding, I can see >> why it was specified this way, but it is a bad choice for bits on the >> wire, or the meaning of the text is wrong. >> >> Perhaps it should be: >> >> "The hash length of the hash value is stored in 256-bits >> for SHAKE-128 and 512-bits for SHAKE-256." >> >> >> If the meaning is this is the fixed SIZE of the hash outputs, I would >> clear up the text as follows: >> >> "Although SHAKE can create any length hash, here it is fixed. >> The fixed length of the hash value stored is 256-bits >> for SHAKE-128 and 512-bits for SHAKE-256." >> >> Obviously, I as an outside reader that has worked with Keccak functions >> is confused. What about readers that have not spent time with the >> various Keccak functions? >> >> Now if your intent is a variable length hash support, then the Security >> Considerations needs to reflect the warning in FIPS 202, Appendix A.1 >> and A.2: >> >> "The security strengths for SHAKE are provided in [FIPS 202], Appendix >> A.1, Table 4. Further, considering Appendix A.2, note that SHAKE has the >> potential for generating related outputs—a property that designers of >> security applications/protocols/systems may not expect of hash >> functions. This property is important to consider in the development of >> applications of SHAKE. If an attacker is able to induce one of the >> parties to use a different value for keylength, say 168 bits, but the >> same value for hashmaterial, then the two parties will end up with the >> following hashs: >> >> SHAKE128(hashmaterial, 112) = fg >> SHAKE128(hashmaterial, 168) = fgh, >> >> By incorporating the length of the output and/or other information with >> the message input to the hash, a disagreement or misunderstanding >> between two users of SHAKE about the length of the hash they are >> deriving would almost certainly not lead to >> related outputs." >> >> Thank you for your consideration. >> >> Robert Moskowitz >> >> _______________________________________________ >> COSE mailing list >> COSE@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose > _______________________________________________ > COSE mailing list > COSE@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose From nobody Tue Nov 17 07:37:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6875F3A1433 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:37:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s-hfmb35TvWS for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:37:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ej1-x636.google.com (mail-ej1-x636.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::636]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4173F3A142F for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:37:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ej1-x636.google.com with SMTP id oq3so30007753ejb.7 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:37:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IWMFAgvnOX6vT2VN5lzLqraEoX7gbAI+I7lIucfYc3A=; b=umhbtXDKTM7gYYIEhf2JJyTAB1LRnMrR1Q5iTDoY4jOjRQuJFJiAFSbO/1iEGaWQLN cKEkU9JnInW5gU4APa1mA+MllIZksry642NsgPXP8AWIp9R1s8QVEURwv/x2go/1vKUg JI7q68KHiFrmYSj1g+wkgEpt6Hxb/5GILyVwDZXVj7FpHMGymw2ipYyDnrEaybYAw864 przt3vfGbfpOS5WvNmhvCcOkdwThCJtTwSYZSknfvYwYNw7Ay+VavRgnnQztGlnXA/T6 gmbDdi/MG0zdRIRkJWBfs9Gzn9HcBx6vpYjiwtYTUXEhyS4uxX/XEOr5FAPnX2IA+/4Z abBg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IWMFAgvnOX6vT2VN5lzLqraEoX7gbAI+I7lIucfYc3A=; b=AQqVYwXJuQwLatNC4ex6OyF/d6+wGQWIaioPhnyjpjwb/JWd2ojKxcTI6Zu0asNaVZ 4EUtgUuU1G+Yf/AyJpNyczhn8TBvr2QbgcOtFjmVVKNuR6rPlbVqz6+ZaZkRIS6Z6A+f hAKEVU9JNaCf8I+ruy8BrC3XROx6eWWowS/wvf7Oy/xr5gqswd9kGRSy9T+/13Su+2VJ Vy44N+qBAuRjpxOYCelYeATU5lR2jRj+RIoN6Zm0wsG12uAofqfTU3sdkn+RUhlJw8Sc OqpJo1CqlYsgPva1b4iWCpfC8Oe8B8qfqp1VrhOSwrE6+UJsOlTPeO8gVkQhnETbQ7aw wjAQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530sqoB8Uhd2QkjG8VywI9ir8I9yeWppdRaD9hdp8pSx7sN2phXO q6VsHKaJMbRiYiDhR2Ekx9TNKQOzKQeupCJQevKxOQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzFxy6gAZJHVfPwNA/Yef6JwDsxcFrL0z8b1qslVo3/De/aphuZYG3xpSKAu6WVdyMdnfLtgLytALpmQox+HEg= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:10d9:: with SMTP id rv25mr20247168ejb.437.1605627426290; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:37:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5d963e0b-e045-907e-426c-bdb0781d0a90@htt-consult.com> <43f17aa1-2ac5-43fb-81fc-0e017d6aa0c1@htt-consult.com> In-Reply-To: <43f17aa1-2ac5-43fb-81fc-0e017d6aa0c1@htt-consult.com> From: Matthew Miller Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 08:36:55 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Moskowitz , Murray Kucherawy Cc: cose Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] Comments on SHAKE usage in draft-ietf-cose-hash-algs-09.txt X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 15:37:10 -0000 [now with a chair hat] Unless the working group objects, Murray will add an RFC Editor note: Please change the third paragraph in Section 3.3 from: """ Unlike the SHA-2 hash functions, no algorithm identifier is created for shorter lengths. The length of the hash value stored is 256-bits for SHAKE-128 and 512-bits for SHAKE-256. """ to instead read: """ Unlike the SHA-2 hash functions, no algorithm identifier is created for shorter lengths. Although SHAKE can create any length hash, here it is fixed. The fixed length of the hash value stored is 256-bits for SHAKE-128 and 512-bits for SHAKE-256. """ - Ivaylo and Matthew COSE Chairs On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 7:06 PM Robert Moskowitz wrote: > > Matt, > > Your text merges my comment well into the original and I feel that > outside readers will get it right. > > Since your intent is fixed length, there is no need to add to the > Security Considerations section. > > On 11/16/20 8:03 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: > > [with no hat yet] > > > > Thank you for the review and suggestions, Bob. They are welcome, even > > if a bit belated. > > > > The intent in this document is a fixed-length hash. With your > > suggested text, I believe that changes the third paragraph in Section > > 3.3 to:https://www.linkedin.com/comm/in/richlangston?midToken=3DAQFG4x8= T0hPDDw&midSig=3D051yXA7iyTkpw1&trk=3Deml-email_m2m_invite_single_01-hero-4= -prof%7Ecta&trkEmail=3Deml-email_m2m_invite_single_01-hero-4-prof%7Ecta-nul= l-6fvyf1%7Ekhlarqf3%7Eol-null-neptune%2Fprofile%7Evanity%2Eview&lipi=3Durn%= 3Ali%3Apage%3Aemail_email_m2m_invite_single_01%3BLqJbZZv6Rw%2B6dvfcy%2BAssA= %3D%3DMatt > > > > """ > > Unlike the SHA-2 hash functions, no algorithm identifier is created > > for shorter lengths. Although SHAKE can create any length hash, here > > it is fixed. The fixed length of the hash value stored is 256-bits > > for SHAKE-128 and 512-bits for SHAKE-256. > > """ > > > > Since the intent is a fixed-length, it does not seem to me the > > suggested additions to the Security Considerations are needed. Is > > that a correct read? > > > > > > - m&m > > Matthew A. Miller > > > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 2:21 PM Robert Moskowitz > > wrote: > >> I appologize for only reviewing this draft now. My focus has been on > >> DRIP where I have been using Keccak derived functions... > >> > >> Review and suggested editorial additions to sec 3.3: > >> > >> "The length of the hash value stored is 256-bits > >> for SHAKE-128 and 512-bits for SHAKE-256." > >> > >> I am reading this as there is a field where the length of the hash > >> output is carried, and it is 256 bits long for SHAKE-128 and 512-bits > >> for SHAKE-256. This is extreme overkill and would only be justified i= n > >> a protocol that is concerned about bits on the wire if these are the > >> sizes of these fields for other algorithms. A length field of 8 bits > >> would handle a hash length of 255 bits, so the max needed should only = be > >> 12 bits. > >> > >> But if this is what is used elsewhere and simplfies coding, I can see > >> why it was specified this way, but it is a bad choice for bits on the > >> wire, or the meaning of the text is wrong. > >> > >> Perhaps it should be: > >> > >> "The hash length of the hash value is stored in 256-bits > >> for SHAKE-128 and 512-bits for SHAKE-256." > >> > >> > >> If the meaning is this is the fixed SIZE of the hash outputs, I would > >> clear up the text as follows: > >> > >> "Although SHAKE can create any length hash, here it is fixed. > >> The fixed length of the hash value stored is 256-bits > >> for SHAKE-128 and 512-bits for SHAKE-256." > >> > >> Obviously, I as an outside reader that has worked with Keccak function= s > >> is confused. What about readers that have not spent time with the > >> various Keccak functions? > >> > >> Now if your intent is a variable length hash support, then the Securit= y > >> Considerations needs to reflect the warning in FIPS 202, Appendix A.1 > >> and A.2: > >> > >> "The security strengths for SHAKE are provided in [FIPS 202], Appendix > >> A.1, Table 4. Further, considering Appendix A.2, note that SHAKE has t= he > >> potential for generating related outputs=E2=80=94a property that desig= ners of > >> security applications/protocols/systems may not expect of hash > >> functions. This property is important to consider in the development = of > >> applications of SHAKE. If an attacker is able to induce one of the > >> parties to use a different value for keylength, say 168 bits, but the > >> same value for hashmaterial, then the two parties will end up with the > >> following hashs: > >> > >> SHAKE128(hashmaterial, 112) =3D fg > >> SHAKE128(hashmaterial, 168) =3D fgh, > >> > >> By incorporating the length of the output and/or other information wit= h > >> the message input to the hash, a disagreement or misunderstanding > >> between two users of SHAKE about the length of the hash they are > >> deriving would almost certainly not lead to > >> related outputs." > >> > >> Thank you for your consideration. > >> > >> Robert Moskowitz > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> COSE mailing list > >> COSE@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose > > _______________________________________________ > > COSE mailing list > > COSE@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose > > _______________________________________________ > COSE mailing list > COSE@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose From iterpre@protonmail.com Sun Nov 8 09:57:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E3323A0100 for ; 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail; t=1604858239; bh=0hXTpU7+tUtcnuEbMfQNJPJi8oneMyrSHEpJ4VeYtKY=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:From; b=w1dA5q7UcZupIl+Zsq2ZQRTKOj8iCvPFCueeGLEYZ3QwBadk74zEqTaAcznQ1Gvhh USLinvwsM9cAcb7TFUPREtFee3EjbxQYz4ZJJoX2eClGaJJ96MRxDS4SC7aO95FC5x JXQrN1XZmR4QeSRZc4lqadCvMgTuqlK5y8PFYqSM= To: "cose@ietf.org" From: iterpre@protonmail.com Cc: Joel Thorstensson , "carson.farmer@gmail.com" , "mark@equilibrium.co" Reply-To: iterpre@protonmail.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="b1_8BFVI4mRrvSaO7ijy6idpdmACnxBrzRjoHmEUBCkph4" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 09:20:28 -0800 Subject: [COSE] Detached Payload Header for dag-cose spec X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2020 18:01:13 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --b1_8BFVI4mRrvSaO7ijy6idpdmACnxBrzRjoHmEUBCkph4 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Thu, 19 Nov 2020 16:13:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <947BBD8D-7BF0-477A-8954-1EFCEBC7170E@vigilsec.com> <10020.1602108879@localhost> <5E50CD24-FA0D-431A-BD1A-CFCFD2441732@vigilsec.com> <6549.1602369371@localhost> In-Reply-To: From: Jonathan Hammell Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 19:13:37 -0500 Message-ID: To: Russ Housley Cc: cose Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] cose-countersignatures X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 00:13:51 -0000 Hi Russ, I cannot find the existing examples from the document in the GitHub Examples repository, despite Appendix A saying that they are there. Furthermore, the existing examples in the document do not cover the COSE_Sign1 case that was deemed to be the problem with the original countersignature. I realize that the WG is having difficulty finding someone to produce these examples, but I thought that this omission should be pointed out on the list. Jonathan On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 5:32 AM Russ Housley wrote: > > Based on the discussion at the meeting earlier today, I put together a PR: > > https://github.com/cose-wg/countersign/pull/2 > > Comments are most welcome. > > Russ > > _______________________________________________ > COSE mailing list > COSE@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose From nobody Fri Nov 20 16:38:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE56B3A0D88 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 16:38:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ev1QxT3I-es5 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 16:38:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oo1-xc35.google.com (mail-oo1-xc35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 056D03A0D82 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 16:37:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oo1-xc35.google.com with SMTP id t142so2619489oot.7 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 16:37:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rsHQ/jsduLD0LU1p2lcBPJD9vkunqkVJcBdplNuMEH4=; b=TA8XeV0x8RyjIkGv2PmmBtEw6v1xfTuUHw/68lYiAJPAbQjJX2Ts3OmslqF8Ksui56 uilTe3S+0qLpHpubDIHzg6J6K/sTmIH5twpHadkbO3BOzhD+JWWIK7qb6veVEe2Y7P6X QiPRWDUFC2zpbU2ZzKzdVOTpK9C8cobWwiMPAntmbbMIZhdULiLThXUpJLAbk2B7C9eq b6tf3N3f4SrICtYOIDgvlgdNrcujOF1cyIcq4eHrqshQqb8ePYKlcRCYNzHBRq4pKfFH 1kQ1GFfmzuUyN29F1wBICVT9zXHbYw+V2V7fUcHH67sR0tL0mi4sZdnDc92PkwuD0g6v +mMw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rsHQ/jsduLD0LU1p2lcBPJD9vkunqkVJcBdplNuMEH4=; b=OKTPWbgx0fH7S+qnrWLeJX6M/m83sLSQBq9hFDFbP0KM6mURxn+ZD3ki9v44mKextQ RDyl+LrjbjElrioHqiGtIKpIskGirXjDd068xDRGf3VBqvyY6wlVn0hKr81PMD35oAu7 rOxq56mmhLSOIZITG6B5sp11k1QT8dX0US7q5ndgLh9L0g1MjdcLSfj8QpxLrW/ieXSO FE1RVTmFf54WIx7BBxGTIEN1GT7Sdas7QHko8pVYXn/dRTWhQZ1zgxAPeYietNVsjjNc uBbAjuGKMhZTfJ1Uf2JLvVdzmLh3FKJbi/UMdJrbkJSND+VOPmh8PUg1sVS1HTKsC4OZ PHhg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5325z+UP3ITd3YBB4k5DN/agFmBF3Y7neFIANeiGBA9+hbE9q7on e1rWJsApKFudhuuE8uV4M+hGyrh8L6XGg7Jdh0c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzDXoiYZAm9OcrqkcvC/dZ6/5spaOlYS2c5eejEfPcDjnXUqI6zgDeTl8WvPr+pKM0LNHx6GJ5r6xwt2RtA3P4= X-Received: by 2002:a4a:a785:: with SMTP id l5mr15690172oom.83.1605919067249; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 16:37:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <947BBD8D-7BF0-477A-8954-1EFCEBC7170E@vigilsec.com> <10020.1602108879@localhost> <5E50CD24-FA0D-431A-BD1A-CFCFD2441732@vigilsec.com> <6549.1602369371@localhost> In-Reply-To: From: Jonathan Hammell Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 19:37:36 -0500 Message-ID: To: Russ Housley Cc: cose Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] cose-countersignatures X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 00:38:44 -0000 An update... I was able to extend my COSE parser to verify the countersignature examples from the I-D and I recreated the JSON input for the Examples repository (https://github.com/cose-wg/Examples/pull/99). I wasn't able to compute a few of the intermediate values due to limitations of my code. The intermediate values that I did not compute or verify, I removed from the JSON. But, important to this I-D, I generated and included the ToBeSign_hex in countersignatures and used this to successfully verify the ECDSA signature. As Michael said, it would be nice if there was a second independent implementation to validate. As I pointed out in my previous message, these examples do not test the CounterSignatureV2 structure. But I think I'm close enough now that I should be able to create some new examples. Russ, maybe hold off on the PR for removing those Example stubs. Jonathan On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 7:13 PM Jonathan Hammell wrote: > > Hi Russ, > I cannot find the existing examples from the document in the GitHub > Examples repository, despite Appendix A saying that they are there. > > Furthermore, the existing examples in the document do not cover the > COSE_Sign1 case that was deemed to be the problem with the original > countersignature. I realize that the WG is having difficulty finding > someone to produce these examples, but I thought that this omission > should be pointed out on the list. > > Jonathan > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 5:32 AM Russ Housley wrote: > > > > Based on the discussion at the meeting earlier today, I put together a PR: > > > > https://github.com/cose-wg/countersign/pull/2 > > > > Comments are most welcome. > > > > Russ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > COSE mailing list > > COSE@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose From nobody Sat Nov 21 09:41:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD73E3A0A50 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 2020 09:41:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dbHLFjo7PiWl for ; Sat, 21 Nov 2020 09:40:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7A853A0A4E for ; Sat, 21 Nov 2020 09:40:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B5C300BB2 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 2020 12:40:57 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id RdU58odmDZxW for ; Sat, 21 Nov 2020 12:40:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (pool-141-156-161-153.washdc.fios.verizon.net [141.156.161.153]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AC905300AB0; Sat, 21 Nov 2020 12:40:55 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 12:40:57 -0500 Cc: cose Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <947BBD8D-7BF0-477A-8954-1EFCEBC7170E@vigilsec.com> <10020.1602108879@localhost> <5E50CD24-FA0D-431A-BD1A-CFCFD2441732@vigilsec.com> <6549.1602369371@localhost> To: Jonathan Hammell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] cose-countersignatures X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 17:41:02 -0000 Jonathan: I was poking around the GitHub repository, and I cannot find these = Examples either. I am guessing that Jim did not get around to posting = them. If someone wants to work with me on an example for COSE_Sign1, I am = willing to assist. Russ > On Nov 19, 2020, at 7:13 PM, Jonathan Hammell = wrote: >=20 > Hi Russ, > I cannot find the existing examples from the document in the GitHub > Examples repository, despite Appendix A saying that they are there. >=20 > Furthermore, the existing examples in the document do not cover the > COSE_Sign1 case that was deemed to be the problem with the original > countersignature. I realize that the WG is having difficulty finding > someone to produce these examples, but I thought that this omission > should be pointed out on the list. >=20 > Jonathan >=20 > On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 5:32 AM Russ Housley = wrote: >>=20 >> Based on the discussion at the meeting earlier today, I put together = a PR: >>=20 >> https://github.com/cose-wg/countersign/pull/2 >>=20 >> Comments are most welcome. >>=20 >> Russ From nobody Sat Nov 21 09:59:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4555A3A0AC6 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 2020 09:59:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QrLmgjWKv1cd for ; Sat, 21 Nov 2020 09:59:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FFFB3A09BC for ; Sat, 21 Nov 2020 09:59:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE00E300BB6 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 2020 12:59:44 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id jafMC2gB9mNQ for ; Sat, 21 Nov 2020 12:59:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (pool-141-156-161-153.washdc.fios.verizon.net [141.156.161.153]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6A336300A9E; Sat, 21 Nov 2020 12:59:43 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 12:59:44 -0500 Cc: cose Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <947BBD8D-7BF0-477A-8954-1EFCEBC7170E@vigilsec.com> <10020.1602108879@localhost> <5E50CD24-FA0D-431A-BD1A-CFCFD2441732@vigilsec.com> <6549.1602369371@localhost> To: Jonathan Hammell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] cose-countersignatures X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 17:59:49 -0000 The PR is waiting. I will not do a merge until I hear back from you. Russ > On Nov 20, 2020, at 7:37 PM, Jonathan Hammell = wrote: >=20 > An update... > I was able to extend my COSE parser to verify the countersignature > examples from the I-D and I recreated the JSON input for the Examples > repository (https://github.com/cose-wg/Examples/pull/99). >=20 > I wasn't able to compute a few of the intermediate values due to > limitations of my code. The intermediate values that I did not > compute or verify, I removed from the JSON. But, important to this > I-D, I generated and included the ToBeSign_hex in countersignatures > and used this to successfully verify the ECDSA signature. >=20 > As Michael said, it would be nice if there was a second independent > implementation to validate. >=20 > As I pointed out in my previous message, these examples do not test > the CounterSignatureV2 structure. But I think I'm close enough now > that I should be able to create some new examples. >=20 > Russ, maybe hold off on the PR for removing those Example stubs. >=20 >=20 > Jonathan >=20 > On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 7:13 PM Jonathan Hammell = wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Russ, >> I cannot find the existing examples from the document in the GitHub >> Examples repository, despite Appendix A saying that they are there. >>=20 >> Furthermore, the existing examples in the document do not cover the >> COSE_Sign1 case that was deemed to be the problem with the original >> countersignature. I realize that the WG is having difficulty finding >> someone to produce these examples, but I thought that this omission >> should be pointed out on the list. >>=20 >> Jonathan >>=20 >> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 5:32 AM Russ Housley = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Based on the discussion at the meeting earlier today, I put together = a PR: >>>=20 >>> https://github.com/cose-wg/countersign/pull/2 >>>=20 >>> Comments are most welcome. >>>=20 >>> Russ >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> COSE mailing list >>> COSE@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose From nobody Sun Nov 22 14:27:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 890343A0E6D for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 14:27:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eg6oH2Blfc-v for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 14:27:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x234.google.com (mail-oi1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D48EB3A0E6B for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 14:27:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x234.google.com with SMTP id v202so14447915oia.9 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 14:27:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7nT59MH1mT+bJEv1329kyVxTOrkxLtHprSnRY2keMaw=; b=PWe13jmzGQ+ztmV1hyF3/1RTKapp9h2LUh4J+IP4t46c2uUKBSKAoMGN1dB2Qa581Z lwxA4+pbjzy0F3uTSCGncmdhyBDzJi5RkYAQ53uKhGMXvdapUL8x8FrwhcXeyeCdV3+5 NyPyRiLgoOngbcwMDabltoAShypJInr+tI/8YBBLHYUfSSJs1Vkj/ngvKVr9KNkGFD0F cZZQp7znSa6Xds1VJncbrWYiOz5yK3APVCit+OOar1B5lJwAhvyxNqvmg8uwb226D5kf R87hRsmX76fPg7YiiVY/PLYs9Bqq47Yd620xL8V8tzp6L3kfO/bVsvQOAwOVcyumNnFs oZZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7nT59MH1mT+bJEv1329kyVxTOrkxLtHprSnRY2keMaw=; b=EX2MiTxe4jKkx1b0R1UTMn19whGJU4hW1F+a2q4pke4aSRvHshU8BlfiYEBHbYNX4s d7PvEJMq201Nr93pdBMlJpq+mW28FrvM4Mmr5D18xTiTB8PHFIFMtq5J2szVhbfcAZV0 fovAhKhTufT84TEAWSElmtduGNLotcDDNCqdFc56ST1bmsFySADhl065G/00Ksh/3oLH Cf4rIt6Bi2C1gklo1Z1FO21I7wRZru4QZYPG/io3KgMmfMDWuhAsqWUt1xf+2cHz/o5t iRpOr+zibxWZUF1ccJTiV3NDEwpR6SkioF/57u4VP+EeUcE4X756qNQIB2C615p7/ktv 7MAw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532UX+Di91EjXzSq9ipi6b103WxcgzNpdxh0H4qjzwgCLyrAXucA y6g0v6s1lKeSlY78L/A58VI38svIhJQtYdD9xhA55MrR46gMDQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwNZW7IOgz9k30A4vov8Bb15GzJCSXmifvbBoOeL/ac7vo7GJwS5oHE9eHFmb0vHxenpX2i3lcWg+EK3vyLLrw= X-Received: by 2002:aca:3c8b:: with SMTP id j133mr12550146oia.13.1606084073002; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 14:27:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jonathan Hammell Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 17:27:42 -0500 Message-ID: To: cose Cc: Russ Housley Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [COSE] Request for early code points for draft-ietf-cose-countersign X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 22:27:55 -0000 I have some code that can generate some examples for draft-ietf-cose-countersign. However, in order to use the new countersignature V2 method, I need early code points assigned in the COSE Header Parameters table (https://www.iana.org/assignments/cose/cose.xhtml#header-parameters) for counter signature version 2 and counter signature 0 version 2 (TBD10 and TBD11 in the I-D). For draft-ietf-cose-countersign (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-countersign): Table COSE Header Parameters https://www.iana.org/assignments/cose/cose.xhtml#header-parameters Name Value counter signature version 2 11 counter signature 0 version 2 12 I discovered that the current examples in draft-ietf-cose-countersign-01 use the label for the original countersignature structure, thus they will need to be fixed to use countersignature V2 once the new code-point is assigned. I have withdrawn my PR from the Examples repo so as to not cause confusion. Jonathan From nobody Sun Nov 22 19:28:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1B723A126A for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 19:28:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.019 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.019 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tTLq2A70y9R3 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 19:28:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 427143A1267 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 19:28:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 0AN3SLaD026563 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 22:28:25 -0500 Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 19:28:20 -0800 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: cose@ietf.org Message-ID: <20201123032820.GZ39170@kduck.mit.edu> References: <160576598797.13448.13519029767702511285@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <160576598797.13448.13519029767702511285@ietfa.amsl.com> Archived-At: Subject: [COSE] Fwd: Last Call: (CoAP: Echo, Request-Tag, and Token Processing) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 03:28:30 -0000 The Echo Option in this draft seems like it could come in handy in some COSE scenarios. Forwarding the last-call note here since I didn't see previous mention of this draft on the WG list. -Ben On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 10:06:28PM -0800, The IESG wrote: > > The IESG has received a request from the Constrained RESTful Environments WG > (core) to consider the following document: - 'CoAP: Echo, Request-Tag, and > Token Processing' > as Proposed Standard > > The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final > comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the > last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2020-12-02. Exceptionally, comments may > be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning > of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. > > Abstract > > > This document specifies enhancements to the Constrained Application > Protocol (CoAP) that mitigate security issues in particular use > cases. The Echo option enables a CoAP server to verify the freshness > of a request or to force a client to demonstrate reachability at its > claimed network address. The Request-Tag option allows the CoAP > server to match block-wise message fragments belonging to the same > request. This document updates RFC7252 with respect to the client > Token processing requirements, forbidding non-secure reuse of Tokens > to ensure binding of response to request when CoAP is used with a > security protocol, and with respect to amplification mitigation, > where the use of Echo is now recommended. > > > > > The file can be obtained via > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-echo-request-tag/ > > > > No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce From nobody Mon Nov 23 14:54:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 762003A0ABD for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 14:54:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZKnZn7rxR5h8 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 14:54:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C5783A0ABB for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 14:54:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2EC1300B9C for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 17:54:07 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id UeYljoModigC for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 17:54:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (pool-141-156-161-153.washdc.fios.verizon.net [141.156.161.153]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 64BA1300A9E; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 17:54:06 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 17:54:07 -0500 Cc: cose Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <55936586-742F-41F0-9238-DD4A1E2C1DE2@vigilsec.com> References: To: Jonathan Hammell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] Request for early code points for draft-ietf-cose-countersign X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 22:54:12 -0000 I support early code point assignment. What do others think? Russ > On Nov 22, 2020, at 5:27 PM, Jonathan Hammell = wrote: >=20 > I have some code that can generate some examples for > draft-ietf-cose-countersign. However, in order to use the new > countersignature V2 method, I need early code points assigned in the > COSE Header Parameters table > (https://www.iana.org/assignments/cose/cose.xhtml#header-parameters) > for counter signature version 2 and counter signature 0 version 2 > (TBD10 and TBD11 in the I-D). >=20 > For draft-ietf-cose-countersign > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-countersign): >=20 > Table COSE Header Parameters > https://www.iana.org/assignments/cose/cose.xhtml#header-parameters >=20 > Name Value > counter signature version 2 11 > counter signature 0 version 2 12 >=20 > I discovered that the current examples in > draft-ietf-cose-countersign-01 use the label for the original > countersignature structure, thus they will need to be fixed to use > countersignature V2 once the new code-point is assigned. I have > withdrawn my PR from the Examples repo so as to not cause confusion. >=20 > Jonathan >=20 > _______________________________________________ > COSE mailing list > COSE@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose From nobody Mon Nov 23 23:38:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB2703A17D2 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 23:38:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.019 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.019 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qVAscUli8GT5 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 23:38:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A2883A17CD for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 23:38:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dce71.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.206.113]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CgG956ygGzyVJ; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 08:38:33 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <55936586-742F-41F0-9238-DD4A1E2C1DE2@vigilsec.com> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 08:38:33 +0100 Cc: Jonathan Hammell , cose X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 627896313.395665-c83ea756af5a3e7522fae28d892132ac Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7FC77F87-A810-4F66-A794-C555B6B8FA66@tzi.org> References: <55936586-742F-41F0-9238-DD4A1E2C1DE2@vigilsec.com> To: Russ Housley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] Request for early code points for draft-ietf-cose-countersign X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 07:38:40 -0000 On 2020-11-23, at 23:54, Russ Housley wrote: >=20 > I support early code point assignment. What do others think? Yes please. 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IHNwZWNpZnkgYW4gZW5jb2RpbmcgZm9yIGVhY2gsIGNhbiB3ZSBjb21lIHVwIHdpdGggYSBnZW5l cmFsIERFUi1DQk9SIGVuY29kaW5nIHRoYXQgY2FuIGJlIGFwcGxpZWQgdG8gdGhlbSBhbGw/DQoN Ci0gVGhlcmUgd2FzIGEgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbiB0aGF0IFNIQS0xIGFsZ29yaXRobXMgc2hvdWxkIGdl dCBsYXJnZSB2YWx1ZXMsIGJ1dCBzaGExV2l0aFJTQUVuY3J5cHRpb24gaXMgc3RpbGwgb25lIG9m IHRoZSBtb3N0IGNvbW1vbiBhbGdvcml0aG0uIEl0IGlzIHF1aXRlIGNvbW1vbmx5IHVzZWQgaW4g c2VsZi1zaWduZWQgcm9vdCBjZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZXMsIHdoZXJlIGl0IGlzIGZpbmUgdG8gZG8gc28u DQoNCi0gRG8gYW55dGhpbmcgZWxzZSBzaW1pbGFyIHRvIFNDVCBsaXN0IGFuZCBpZC1hdC1vcmdh bml6YXRpb25JZGVudGlmaWVyIHRoYXQgaGFzIGJlZW4gc3BlY2lmaWVkIGFmdGVyIFJGQyA1Mjgw IG5lZWQgdG8gYmUgc3VwcG9ydGVkPw0KDQpDaGVlcnMsDQpKb2huDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Nov 24 02:40:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0AFB3A1CF5 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 02:39:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.319 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.319 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id erovrDz9HMYh for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 02:39:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B72113A1CF8 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 02:39:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548dce71.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.206.113]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CgLBF6K4wz13rk; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 11:39:49 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 11:39:49 +0100 Cc: cose X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 627907189.338197-8120b312989e384c8d0824a2d52efeac Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <990ECC0E-FD7C-4EC0-8D23-AC21274DA282@tzi.org> References: To: John Mattsson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] CBOR Certificates Open Issues X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 10:39:59 -0000 Hi John, On 2020-11-24, at 10:58, John Mattsson = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > We have addressed most of the comments that we got during the meeting. = Some issues require some more discussion and are listed below. Any = comments on the issues below or reviews of the whole -04 draft is very = welcome. >=20 > CBOR Certificates Open Issues: >=20 > - Should a CBOR certificate be a CBOR Sequence or a CBOR array? Making = it an array would add 1 byte, but maybe it has benefits with CDDL = validation using current tools. I=E2=80=99d rather fix the tool instead of spending that byte. I added an option to the verification choice in the CDDL tool that makes = it read a sequence as an array. That should allow directly using the = method recommended in RFC 8742. Usage: cddl foo.cddl vs bar.cborseq (v for validate, s for sequence). $ cat sequence.cddl a =3D [tstr, tstr, tstr] $ echo aaaaa | cddl sequence.cddl vs - $ echo aaaaa | cddl sequence.cddl vsp - /a/ [/tstr/ "a", /tstr/ "a", /tstr/ "\n"] $ (=E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D is 0x61, the head for a text string of length one.) Use `gem update` to spring forward to cddl tool version 0.8.15 (*). > - Is "#6.6(bstr)" the correct way to write CDDL for tags-oid? Assuming = the label 6 will be used in the end. Would be good with something more = readable like biguint. 6 will not be the tag number; that would be a quite old version of the = draft. Please see=20 https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-cbor-tags-oid-03.html for a fresh version. Section 8: = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-cbor-tags-oid-03.html#name-cddl= -typenames also has suggested CDDL that you can add to your spec. > - Do any algorithms with parameters need to be supported? Algorithms = with parameters are e.g. RSA-PSS with SHA2, id-ecPublicKey with = id-ecPublicKey and specifiedCurve are MUST NOT be used in PKIX according = to RFC 5480. You mean with parameters beyond namedCurve? > - Do ASN.1 bit strings with unused bits !=3D 0 need to be supported? = Bit strings are used in public keys and signature values. Good question. I=E2=80=99m not aware of anyone being that foolish. I would argue that we don=E2=80=99t need to support such foolery even if = it does exist. > - Do any more attributeTypes need to be supported? Do oid-tags need to = be supported for attributeType? (Don=E2=80=99t know.) > - Do any more character string types than printablestring and = utf8string need to be supported? E.g. TeletexString, BMPString, or = UniversalString, or IA5String? Neither of therse should be used in new = certificates. Again, even if they exist in the wild we should not support such = foolery. > - Should the draft use unwrapped CBOR tag 1 for validity? That CBOR = implementations already support unix time removes one of the problems. = RFC 5280 certificates can use leap seconds, is this important to = support? Unix time does not. There are examples of certificates using = generalized time for dates < 2050 (in violation with RFC 5280). We could = decide to not support these. To have a problem with the UNIX time scale, a certificate would need to = put one of its significant points in time on a leap second. This is = hard to do for future times, as we usually don=E2=80=99t know more than = half a year into the future whether there will be a leap second at one = of the possible instants. Certifying a key at a leap second would = probably generate enough interop problems that any CA would avoid that. So I don=E2=80=99t think we need to support leap seconds (read: provide = a way to express instances of time that are on a leap second, 23:59:60 = UTC). > - Do any more types of subjectAltName need to be supported? E.g. = x400Address, ediPartyName, and registeredID? Good question. > - Which optimizations are worth having and what kind of certificate = should we optimize for. The draft currently optimize encoding of the = example certificate. Encoding subject as a byte string provides quite = big savings (17 bytes). These are the savings we are looking for. (But, any German should know, =E2=80=9CKleinvieh macht auch Mist=E2=80=9D,= i.e., =E2=80=9CMany pennies make a dollar=E2=80=9D.) > - How to encode extensionvalue for non-7925 extensions? Should they = stay DER encoded byte strings, should we specify an encoding for each, = can we come up with a general DER-CBOR encoding that can be applied to = them all? We could. I haven=E2=80=99t tried, but that would probably not save a = lot. Do we have an example corpus of such extensions? > - There was a suggestion that SHA-1 algorithms should get large = values, but sha1WithRSAEncryption is still one of the most common = algorithm. It is quite commonly used in self-signed root certificates, = where it is fine to do so. Agree. > - Do anything else similar to SCT list and = id-at-organizationIdentifier that has been specified after RFC 5280 need = to be supported? Don=E2=80=99t know. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten (*) Yep, that is a weird number to a German. From nobody Tue Nov 24 07:31:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42F273A10DE for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 07:31:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ShdBgcKd6gXC for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 07:31:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 616973A0659 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 07:31:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD82B300BB7 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 10:31:26 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id xvUvilZeIFcD for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 10:31:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (pool-141-156-161-153.washdc.fios.verizon.net [141.156.161.153]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48400300670; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 10:31:25 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 10:31:26 -0500 Cc: cose Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <03E3EAD0-694A-4903-97B8-9E3A004EA911@vigilsec.com> References: To: John Mattsson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] CBOR Certificates Open Issues X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 15:31:34 -0000 John: A few thoughts on some, but not all, of you questions. > - Do any algorithms with parameters need to be supported? Algorithms = with parameters are e.g. RSA-PSS with SHA2, id-ecPublicKey with = id-ecPublicKey and specifiedCurve are MUST NOT be used in PKIX according = to RFC 5480. The parameters must be supported. For id-ecPublicKey, the parameter is = namedCurve. > - Do ASN.1 bit strings with unused bits !=3D 0 need to be supported? = Bit strings are used in public keys and signature values. BIT STRING will not need unused bits for public keys or signatures, but = BIT STRING is also used for the key usage extension. > - Do any more character string types than printablestring and = utf8string need to be supported? E.g. TeletexString, BMPString, or = UniversalString, or IA5String? Neither of therse should be used in new = certificates. Support for TeletexString, BMPString, and UniversalString is OPTIONAL in = RFC 5280. However IA5String is needed for emailAddress because @ is not = supported bt PrintableString. > - Should the draft use unwrapped CBOR tag 1 for validity? That CBOR = implementations already support unix time removes one of the problems. = RFC 5280 certificates can use leap seconds, is this important to = support? Unix time does not. There are examples of certificates using = generalized time for dates < 2050 (in violation with RFC 5280). We could = decide to not support these. it only maters that the mapping is one-to-one. > - Do any more types of subjectAltName need to be supported? E.g. = x400Address, ediPartyName, and registeredID? These are not likely to be used in the IoT environment. > - There was a suggestion that SHA-1 algorithms should get large = values, but sha1WithRSAEncryption is still one of the most common = algorithm. It is quite commonly used in self-signed root certificates, = where it is fine to do so. When do you see the transmission of the root certificate? TLS sends the = certification path up to, but not including, the root certificate. Russ From nobody Tue Nov 24 14:09:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 917503A0E05 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 14:09:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xg-fihHV73I6 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 14:09:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42f.google.com (mail-wr1-x42f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 029FF3A0E03 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 14:09:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id z7so8068078wrn.3 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 14:09:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=q70zW2ENO1VRBcjxwAjokOyCQd/UoewWHUPETVJ1esM=; b=NW3pPCQL3Zv4GT7xIHKHMICuLD9E5atC0r9Pqc8kR02su0A6Zkrn+7/IGC6fTTuOQx fRexr9vVTYS1kEt9CYTfF1P+ZuhMW32AIN8tUELvDnYytEgGUfnUaik6wecCrEdlZOnx Ld+le2E1eiaub0La6tvTYepY5509l3Lw4ZaOJnZ5IkqpZQbV9Q0DGS7PDgxyhfA+VIqZ dzkR4Ud0lw+3tLcDBQd9KrF13d14xbQJCuEgKgG2EkVJQneaJ2GAR+L+mCob4/TIyfps X+1b4wdKQU3W99ALUTA27fvDaN8xNetCCrF1g4Be3Q3LaAQ+zAfzBBguRIx7NMH2lSVe YcvQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=q70zW2ENO1VRBcjxwAjokOyCQd/UoewWHUPETVJ1esM=; b=F4qCZ7AuHU6YHieQipAoTUR/+sDuQAxQ2URpEY0Zo0g92wmMtHyBOKF9+R1mBZtG9Y /IPU5m7wA9TQk/hTLkaAEXmXDZkq3F0Qxm+IME9BVFdhJ1D9D8crCzecFldc4ymDSQ4r DEQBnHDplvNtHPYqMPKsK6Q9PgWF6z3FZ59rjw3HndWW45FzKGdvltfqDhdlmw/Lw+qv /rYKSQqsCIYOdu2cjb+UDqNbq1s0Da6tscuuWCtR40HZoWNs+rbpTDko1zi+V15DpBJi R35bkMs1fMqdeaJbBdZ+lWzqMWlwrRItysS+0C2R1rmWfeAWj4CAmOxagrSg13Si23uo gz7w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ftKst0cEYV6SqAeZCJAQrIx3CcOTNhBIWGap4bK5VdaVBhLay Es27r1KQzQkHTNwlODCa9CFaTBPkVOfXA8v8sFMfwlw0epJFfPjm X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwo7NZttSzQ6J6G80vdRLoGpsBvHdLqOjDvMUbiNSacl3by2WGGE4bYr/0QN3CoYBVAVYUGdcXQ2uGCT1ntjUA= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4e87:: with SMTP id e7mr683531wru.70.1606255785317; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 14:09:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Ivaylo Petrov Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 23:09:19 +0100 Message-ID: To: cose Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000080af0d05b4e19131" Archived-At: Subject: [COSE] COSE interim meetings X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 22:09:51 -0000 --00000000000080af0d05b4e19131 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear all, As we have previously discussed, the chairs believe the working group will benefit from having some extra time, in order to better advance its work. That includes at least working on CBOR Encoding of X.509 Certificates and the CounterSignature documents. Our understanding is that people consider meeting once per month an optimal solution. For that reason we have requested 3 interim meetings before the next IETF meeting, each with a duration of 1 hour. In order to comply with the notice period for an interim and considering that the end of the year might be a difficult time to organize such a meeting, we requested the December meeting to be on 16th at 16:00 UTC. The other meetings are currently scheduled for 20/01/2020 and 17/02/2020 respectively. Based on past experience, we expect those time slots to be acceptable for the participants, but in case anyone has concerns with those, please let us know and we will look for ways to address them. Thank you, - Matthew and Ivaylo COSE WG Chairs --00000000000080af0d05b4e19131 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear all,

As we=C2=A0h= ave previously discussed, the=C2=A0chairs believe the=C2=A0working group wi= ll benefit from having some extra time, in order to better advance its work= . That includes at least working on CBOR Encoding of X.509 Certificates and= the CounterSignature documents. Our understanding is that people consider= =C2=A0meeting once per month an optimal solution. For that reason we have r= equested 3 interim meetings before the next IETF meeting,=C2=A0each with a = duration of 1 hour. In order to comply with the notice period for an interi= m and=C2=A0considering that the=C2=A0end of the year might be a difficult t= ime to organize such a meeting, we requested the December meeting to be on = 16th at 16:00 UTC. The other meetings are currently scheduled for 20/01/202= 0 and 17/02/2020 respectively. Based on past=C2=A0experience, we expect tho= se time slots to be acceptable for the participants, but in case anyone has= concerns with those, please let us know and we will look for ways to addre= ss them.

Thank you,

- Matthew and Ivaylo
COSE= WG Chairs
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
=
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Y2VydGlmaWNhdGUuDQoNClJ1c3MNCg0KDQo= From nobody Tue Nov 24 14:23:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietf.org Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6507D3A0E4C; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 14:23:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IESG Secretary To: "IETF-Announce" Cc: cose@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.23.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <160625660126.4306.8567081252377744028@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 14:23:21 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [COSE] CBOR Object Signing and Encryption (cose) WG Virtual Meeting: 2020-12-16 X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 22:23:21 -0000 The CBOR Object Signing and Encryption (cose) WG will hold a virtual interim meeting on 2020-12-16 from 16:00 to 17:00 UTC. Agenda: Tentative agenda - CBOR Encoding of X.509 Certificates - Countersignatures Information about remote participation: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m6536ff719b3c49ceccce568737cdd7d7 From nobody Tue Nov 24 14:24:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietf.org Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9188C3A0E62; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 14:23:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IESG Secretary To: "IETF-Announce" Cc: cose@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.23.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <160625663256.8306.15700820879402042243@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 14:23:52 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [COSE] CBOR Object Signing and Encryption (cose) WG Virtual Meeting: 2021-01-20 X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 22:24:00 -0000 The CBOR Object Signing and Encryption (cose) WG will hold a virtual interim meeting on 2021-01-20 from 16:00 to 17:00 UTC. Agenda: Tentative agenda - CBOR Encoding of X.509 Certificates - Countersignatures Information about remote participation: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m7c285fcd6601228052b73b0d662768d0 From nobody Tue Nov 24 14:24:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietf.org Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7CFE3A0E9E; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 14:24:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IESG Secretary To: "IETF-Announce" Cc: cose@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.23.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <160625667065.17414.16488748045823851150@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 14:24:30 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [COSE] CBOR Object Signing and Encryption (cose) WG Virtual Meeting: 2021-02-17 X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 22:24:38 -0000 The CBOR Object Signing and Encryption (cose) WG will hold a virtual interim meeting on 2021-02-17 from 16:00 to 17:00 UTC. Agenda: Tentative agenda - CBOR Encoding of X.509 Certificates - Countersignatures Information about remote participation: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m9e6ad939b9554b2adb531853fb265556 From nobody Wed Nov 25 13:11:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A9D63A1E43 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 13:11:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1BZ1PbQ2BMV1 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 13:11:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91C1B3A1E41 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 13:11:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA84E300B96 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 16:11:13 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id UGa590oOHTwo for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 16:11:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (pool-141-156-161-153.washdc.fios.verizon.net [141.156.161.153]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 51A79300B10; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 16:11:12 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 16:11:13 -0500 Cc: cose Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <22C76FED-BFB8-49B8-AF67-7AFFD2541435@vigilsec.com> References: <03E3EAD0-694A-4903-97B8-9E3A004EA911@vigilsec.com> To: John Mattsson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] CBOR Certificates Open Issues X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 21:11:18 -0000 > On Nov 24, 2020, at 5:15 PM, John Mattsson = wrote: >=20 > Thanks Russ, >=20 >>> - Do any algorithms with parameters need to be supported? Algorithms = with >parameters are e.g. RSA-PSS with SHA2, id-ecPublicKey with = id-ecPublicKey >and specifiedCurve are MUST NOT be used in PKIX = according to RFC 5480. >>=20 >> The parameters must be supported. For id-ecPublicKey, the parameter = is >namedCurve. >=20 > As pointed out also by Carsten, this question was not well-formulated. = Let me try again :) >=20 > The current draft support id-ecPublicKey with namedCurve and RSA = algorithms that set parameters to NULL. The question is if CBOR = certificates need to support anything beyond this. RSA-PSS with SHA2 = signatures are for example not currently supported, but does not seem to = be used much. I see no uptake of RSA-PSS or RSA-OAEP or RSA-KEM, so it seems = reasonable to let them fail compression. >>> - Do ASN.1 bit strings with unused bits !=3D 0 need to be supported? = Bit >strings are used in public keys and signature values. >>=20 >> BIT STRING will not need unused bits for public keys or signatures, = but BIT >STRING is also used for the key usage extension. >=20 > Thanks, good to get confirmation that unused bits !=3D 0 do not need = to be supported in public keys and signature values. The question was = really just for these two cases. The bit string in the key usage = extention is already encoded as an int. Okay. >>> - Do any more character string types than printablestring and = utf8string >need to be supported? E.g. TeletexString, BMPString, or = UniversalString, or >IA5String? Neither of therse should be used in new = certificates. >>=20 >> Support for TeletexString, BMPString, and UniversalString is OPTIONAL = in >RFC 5280. However IA5String is needed for emailAddress because @ is = not >supported bt PrintableString. >=20 > RFC 5280 states that "Conforming implementations generating new = certificates with electronic mail addresses MUST use the rfc822Name in = the subject alternative name extension (Section 4.2.1.6) to describe = such identities. Simultaneous inclusion of the emailAddress attribute in = the subject distinguished name to support legacy implementations is = deprecated but permitted." >=20 > Given your answer I guess CAs are still putting emailAddress and = IA5String in new certificates and that it need to be supported. I made a = commit to support emailAddress. I see email addresses in three places, but I would really encourage = people to only use rfc822Name in the subject alternative name extension. = As best I can tell, the other two locations are to support legacy = applications, and I hope that IoT does not have too many of those yet. >> - Should the draft use unwrapped CBOR tag 1 for validity? That CBOR = >implementations already support unix time removes one of the problems. = RFC >5280 certificates can use leap seconds, is this important to = support? Unix >time does not. There are examples of certificates using = generalized time >for dates < 2050 (in violation with RFC 5280). We = could decide to not >support these. >>=20 >> it only maters that the mapping is one-to-one. >=20 > If CAs follow RFC 5280, we could encode both UTCTime and = GeneralizedTime to POSIX time without additional information. It would = be one-to-one. If CAs use GeneralizedTime for dates earlier than 2050, = it would not be one-to-one and we need to do something more. This convention has been around since 1999. RFC 2459 says: CAs conforming to this profile MUST always encode certificate validity dates through the year 2049 as UTCTime; certificate validity dates in 2050 or later MUST be encoded as GeneralizedTime. I hope we can count on it. Russ From nobody Wed Nov 25 17:18:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F24633A0EAD for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 17:18:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ydVR5wv7oumS for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 17:18:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61D213A0EA9 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 17:18:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18593389EB; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 20:19:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id V1sLxHwnLfMV; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 20:19:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66F69389EA; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 20:19:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CC5A86; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 20:18:26 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: John Mattsson , cose In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] CBOR Certificates Open Issues X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 01:18:32 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Mattsson wrote: > - There was a suggestion that SHA-1 algorithms should get large value= s, > but sha1WithRSAEncryption is still one of the most common algorithm. = It > is quite commonly used in self-signed root certificates, where it is > fine to do so. Self-signed root certificates tend not to be transmitted. If you don't have the right anchor, the chain is useless. I do have counter-examples (BRSKI) where it is either useful for debugging, or essential to get pinning right. However, it's a greenfield, and we'd prefer to encourage ECDSA anyway, so I strongly agree that SHA-1 algorithms can get large values. I couldn't tell with the replies of "Agree" what other posters actually were agreeing to. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+/AmEACgkQgItw+93Q 3WV10gf/Xd84VXmv02CpggOdXJkO3/C7UwMJLRRqAtAcmKjwQ3xQ50I89ObM9dnQ scTeEblx4jCe0aWPm0kPEdwddoi3BGFtwPl0S+30lZMg/eoZ/AT61gL3KcWCb9f6 Jng5gVxvkRaz77d62Objfyq/Q5K0uC1Mehe7R4AiN7jsDSmWbUBzXC0n52AAoJBB KY56Wae29uJK4sHbgIMiFNvubWPvbDmg7HYewpuP4lOS8Cai2m3so58/tYgHLzv7 J+GY+KY+xjppOjA1nOiZejZOREHzvXwurUGLIuTUNSok4oAax0KGMb0jy7hMq5g1 A13dlm52Z3FJUsIFStyfgpBSc2whoQ== =O2zo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Nov 25 17:27:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EB2C3A0F2F for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 17:27:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RdBvTJeuE7lJ for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 17:27:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3ED0F3A0F3A for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 17:27:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A33DA389EB; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 20:28:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id dLt9BPpxIkK4; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 20:28:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4F7F389EA; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 20:28:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D57B186; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 20:27:09 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: John Mattsson , Russ Housley , cose In-Reply-To: References: <03E3EAD0-694A-4903-97B8-9E3A004EA911@vigilsec.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] CBOR Certificates Open Issues X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 01:27:18 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Mattsson wrote: >>> - There was a suggestion that SHA-1 algorithms should get large >>> values, >but sha1WithRSAEncryption is still one of the most common >>> algorithm. It is >quite commonly used in self-signed root certifica= tes, >>> where it is fine to >do so. >> When do you see the transmission of the root certificate? TLS sends >> the certification path up to, but not including, the root certificat= e. > Good point. Not as often as other certificates, but the root > certificates need to be transfered to the IoT devices at least once in > the factory or when they are deployed. IoT devices may want to store > there root certificates as CBOR certificates to save storage and > memory. Compressed root certificates would not even have to be > decompressed again. I disagree. If deployed at the factory, then they are likely baked into firmware, or installed via JTAG, or if done over a network, this won't matter. As for storing, it only needs the public key part, which would be best to store in whatever the native big-integer format is. (Maybe more bytes, but no need to convert to another form) It might need an index in the form of the Issuer DN. I hope that the compression of DNs will be distinguished such that there is only one way to do it, and one can compare the compressed forms rather than having to expand it to be sure. I don't feel confident that this will be the case because I think that there will always be an "out" where raw DER bits can be included for things that the compressor doesn't know how to deal with. So a stupid compressor might produce a bigger result than a smarter compressor. I also wonder about this work in the context of Packed CBOR. Should we restart our thinking assuming that we are really just building a static directory for Packed CBOR? I suspect that this bespoke compression will do better for bytes-on-the wire, but what is the code size impact, assuming that Packed CBOR code was already available? =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+/BG0ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXZwQf/f8v58kIOQ/RKcS8Esnr5BQpgokw8C1rwXeY3+TmqOM2xnpy8sQhIcHXj f25qBRhSoSUbLUusYSqloOb3UE6cmwK9lyCVerABDaaK2M1qeNbNfiATC4tvI+7b 6tRsJ6Ip/vDPsWp6g373SxfsqeEb8KA4/mYXAm2r0u+fuT2DjEAOc2z9D2Kg0EdQ AJJ3Zsmnfl/swnl/mJB1oQV9asSMfUvQR6ZJFHlRp+u8/qceWr+/ztjo9OYeiG3I kdYJhn/sWP9/VjmoUqSZ28VMoRmWwLIrBkGkNao7tUQuruuNQtsMIAPuttRgZ+Qd fkGNkakHJWKkkvggEmGz3xfX+5INwg== =ITWH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Nov 25 20:18:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost 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by HE1PR07MB3066.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:7:2f::31) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3589.16; Thu, 26 Nov 2020 11:15:15 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0702MB3674.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a541:94c1:b44a:6b9d]) by HE1PR0702MB3674.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a541:94c1:b44a:6b9d%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3611.009; Thu, 26 Nov 2020 11:15:15 +0000 From: =?Windows-1252?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= To: "cose@ietf.org" , John Mattsson Thread-Topic: Proposed charter update Thread-Index: AQHWw+PiSTpwt5sn0E+7fht4I5BdoA== Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 11:15:15 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [83.251.145.232] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 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boundary="_000_HE1PR0702MB3674CD19748C867004E2AEE1F4F90HE1PR0702MB3674_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: HE1PR0702MB3674.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4a47dab6-f15a-40d7-b316-08d891fc8cdb X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Nov 2020 11:15:15.2430 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 0zHIkOgTNezjiEJq2qdDeoc6dcwVPhgRY8g7L9ErYVzqMqIvN/Gg2c005q1g/XmmncEzhdGKejz153XTELqBh8ORpPu4w0li4r1MKBvAxcg= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR07MB3066 Archived-At: Subject: [COSE] Proposed charter update X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 11:15:20 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0702MB3674CD19748C867004E2AEE1F4F90HE1PR0702MB3674_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi COSE, John and I looked at the charter text in the Github, the text on CBOR certi= ficates is not accurately reflecting the new direction that was discussed a= nd seemed to be agreed upon at IETF 109. Here is a proposal to change that: OLD A CBOR encoding of the compressed certificate profile defined in RFC 7925. = It is expected that the compression works with a large subset of RFC 7925 a= nd takes into consideration any updates in draft-ietf-uta-tls13-iot-profile= -00. The compression may also include other important IoT certificate profi= les like IEEE 802.1AR. The main objective is to define a method of compress= ing current X.509 certificates that meet a specific profile into a smaller = format. This compression algorithm is loss-less so they can be expanded and= normal X.509 certificate processing used. The data structures used to enco= de such compressed X.509 certificates are expected to produce a compact enc= oding for certificate information, and are not necessarily tied specificall= y to X.509 certificates. Accordingly, a secondary objective is to reuse the= se data structures to produce a native COSE certificate encoding; such a st= ructure is relevant in situations where DER parsing and the compression/dec= ompression machinery to convert between CBOR and DER encodings are unnecess= ary overhead, such as embedded implementations. The possibility of a joint = certificate artifact, conveyed in CBOR encoding but including signatures ov= er both the CBOR and DER encodings, may be explored. This work will be base= d on draft-mattsson-cose-cbor-cert-compress. The working group will collabo= rate and coordinate with other IETF WGs such as TLS, UTA, LAKE to understan= d and validate the requirements and solution. NEW A CBOR encoding of the certificate profile defined in RFC 5280. It is expec= ted that the compression works with RFC 7925 and takes into consideration a= ny updates in draft-ietf-uta-tls13-iot-profile-00. The compression may also= include other important IoT certificate profiles like IEEE 802.1AR. The ma= in objective is to define a method of compressing current X.509 certificate= s that meet a specific profile into a smaller format. This compression algo= rithm is loss-less so they can be expanded and normal X.509 certificate pro= cessing used. The data structures used to encode such compressed X.509 cert= ificates are expected to produce a compact encoding for certificate informa= tion, and are not necessarily tied specifically to X.509 certificates. Acco= rdingly, a secondary objective is to reuse these data structures to produce= a natively signed COSE certificate encoding; such a structure is relevant = in situations where DER parsing and the compression/decompression machinery= to convert between CBOR and DER encodings are unnecessary overhead, such a= s embedded implementations. The possibility of a joint certificate artifact= , conveyed in CBOR encoding but including signatures over both the CBOR and= DER encodings, may be explored. This work will be based on draft-mattsson-= cose-cbor-cert-compress. The working group will collaborate and coordinate = with other IETF WGs such as TLS, UTA, LAKE to understand and validate the r= equirements and solution. The changes are only in the two first sentences, and =93native=94 is change= d to =93natively signed=94 G=F6ran and John --_000_HE1PR0702MB3674CD19748C867004E2AEE1F4F90HE1PR0702MB3674_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi COSE,

 

John and I looked at the charte= r text in the Github, the text on CBOR certificates is not accurately refle= cting the new direction that was discussed and seemed to be agreed upon at = IETF 109. Here is a proposal to change that:

 

OLD

A CBOR en= coding of the compressed certificate profile defined in RFC 7925. It is exp= ected that the compression works with a large subset of RFC 7925 and takes = into consideration any updates in draft-ietf-uta-tls13-iot-profile-00. The compression may also include other important IoT certificate profiles = like IEEE 802.1AR. The main objective is to define a method of compressing = current X.509 certificates that meet a specific profile into a smaller form= at. This compression algorithm is loss-less so they can be expanded and normal X.509 certificate processing = used. The data structures used to encode such compressed X.509 certificates= are expected to produce a compact encoding for certificate information, an= d are not necessarily tied specifically to X.509 certificates. Accordingly, a secondary objective is to reuse thes= e data structures to produce a native COSE certificate encoding; such a str= ucture is relevant in situations where DER parsing and the compression/deco= mpression machinery to convert between CBOR and DER encodings are unnecessary overhead, such as embedded implemen= tations. The possibility of a joint certificate artifact, conveyed in CBOR = encoding but including signatures over both the CBOR and DER encodings, may= be explored. This work will be based on draft-mattsson-cose-cbor-cert-compress. The working group will co= llaborate and coordinate with other IETF WGs such as TLS, UTA, LAKE to unde= rstand and validate the requirements and solution.

&nbs= p;

NEW

A CBOR en= coding of the certificate profile defined in RFC 5280. It is expected that = the compression works with RFC 7925 and takes into consideration any update= s in draft-ietf-uta-tls13-iot-profile-00. The compression may also include other important IoT certificate profiles = like IEEE 802.1AR. The main objective is to define a method of compressing = current X.509 certificates that meet a specific profile into a smaller form= at. This compression algorithm is loss-less so they can be expanded and normal X.509 certificate processing = used. The data structures used to encode such compressed X.509 certificates= are expected to produce a compact encoding for certificate information, an= d are not necessarily tied specifically to X.509 certificates. Accordingly, a secondary objective is to reuse thes= e data structures to produce a natively signed COSE certificate encoding; such a structure is relevant in situations where DER parsing and the compr= ession/decompression machinery to convert between CBOR and DER encodings ar= e unnecessary overhead, such as embedded implementations. The possibility o= f a joint certificate artifact, conveyed in CBOR encoding but including signatures over both the CBOR and = DER encodings, may be explored. This work will be based on draft-mattsson-c= ose-cbor-cert-compress. The working group will collaborate and coordinate w= ith other IETF WGs such as TLS, UTA, LAKE to understand and validate the requirements and solution.

&nbs= p;

The changes are only in the two first sentences, and =93native=94 is = changed to =93natively signed=94

 

G=F6ran and John

 

--_000_HE1PR0702MB3674CD19748C867004E2AEE1F4F90HE1PR0702MB3674_-- From nobody Thu Nov 26 09:21:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C69F3A1533 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2020 09:21:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BQjepSqWOSVS for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2020 09:21:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A9E53A1659 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2020 09:21:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27BE9389EE; Thu, 26 Nov 2020 12:22:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id nGBcAUsvF1a1; Thu, 26 Nov 2020 12:22:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07F2E389EA; Thu, 26 Nov 2020 12:22:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8688A26C; Thu, 26 Nov 2020 12:21:24 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: John Mattsson , cose In-Reply-To: References: <03E3EAD0-694A-4903-97B8-9E3A004EA911@vigilsec.com> <18362.1606354029@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] CBOR Certificates Open Issues X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 17:21:45 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Mattsson wrote: > Hi Michael, > Michael Richardson wrote: >> I hope that the compression of DNs will be distinguished such that t= here is >> only one way to do it, and one can compare the compressed forms rath= er than >> having to expand it to be sure. >> I don't feel confident that this will be the case because I think th= at there >> will always be an "out" where raw DER bits can be included for thing= s that >> the compressor doesn't know how to deal with. So a stupid compresso= r might >> produce a bigger result than a smarter compressor. > A long as DER is Distinguished (which it should be) and the CBOR > encoding is one-to-one (which it should be) comparing the CBOR encoded > DNs will not be a problem. Okay, I've re-read the document. I thought that there were some outs, i.e. if some rarely occuring thing occured that it could be sent as pieces of DER. No such things occur. So, I agree, we can compare CBOR encoded DNs. My point remains that an IoT device storing a root certificate only needs t= he public key and *maybe* the DN, if it has more than one such anchor. >> I also wonder about this work in the context of Packed CBOR. >> Should we restart our thinking assuming that we are really just buil= ding a >> static directory for Packed CBOR? I suspect that this bespoke compr= ession >> will do better for bytes-on-the wire, but what is the code size impa= ct, >> assuming that Packed CBOR code was already available? > I do not see how Packet CBOR would replace anything in this > context. What is mainly needed here is a DER -> CBOR one-to-one > function. CBOR packing is CBOR -> CBOR and it is not one-to-one (it is > not a function). Packed CBOR seems to work best on very structured > data. Packed CBOR with or without a static dictionary could be used to > pack a c5chain of CBOR certificates. I guess you could also > theoretically combine a different (not yet specified) DER -> CBOR > one-to-one function with a (not yet specified) deterministic one-to-o= ne > CBOR packing, and a (not yet specified) dictionary, but I think the > "compression" would be limited. I guess you are right. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl+/5BQACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXhNgf/UXTOoxXVV3k2Vp6X5lCeAV1yjpc0KmcFw9DTJxAvYObJCqutFAEmVrnG m1htZG87t87SHO9MOBuMrlq1w97cquYiAwB1FYG2MSE+Xzs0jPTOPHQY9SvKuEK/ AIiFIJ20nT/8tfCUSVBBWD61eaeZGFWpFNhOyzgYbW9t4Fl1cxh9PCjfvzuzR50g ytmWXzre1mlry1VQTqVa5UlYMqJ4hPV8tEvREgUatSavy6kQ/bZgQXXzuRL9iQsg MDofp5AhE7HAXlZBLsiYlsczUqUOsJa4TuRS6Sg86gJCL4f2UAjsxY8JeGFh/5hv v112UbwxSb4Yn6iCmV5zjvMs6sBGVA== =vBQt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Nov 26 16:44:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16C023A0B54; Thu, 26 Nov 2020 16:44:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lpo7WQXK3JmC; Thu, 26 Nov 2020 16:44:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F38603A0B49; Thu, 26 Nov 2020 16:44:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 0AR0hvWc007808 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 26 Nov 2020 19:44:02 -0500 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 16:43:57 -0800 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: cose-chairs@ietf.org Cc: Russ Housley , cose Message-ID: <20201127004357.GG34187@kduck.mit.edu> References: <55936586-742F-41F0-9238-DD4A1E2C1DE2@vigilsec.com> <7FC77F87-A810-4F66-A794-C555B6B8FA66@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7FC77F87-A810-4F66-A794-C555B6B8FA66@tzi.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] Request for early code points for draft-ietf-cose-countersign X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 00:44:07 -0000 Matt, Ivo, On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 08:38:33AM +0100, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2020-11-23, at 23:54, Russ Housley wrote: > > > > I support early code point assignment. What do others think? > > Yes please. Per https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7120#section-3.1 step 4, please use this as my approval of early allocation. (Note that you probably still have to do step 3.) Thanks, Ben From nobody Sun Nov 29 10:32:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FBF73A0B20 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 2020 10:32:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.638 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.638 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_OBFUSCATE_05_10=0.26, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bPXfzjA3iBPf for ; Sun, 29 Nov 2020 10:32:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x335.google.com (mail-wm1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 105E53A0A90 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 2020 10:32:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x335.google.com with SMTP id c198so13699748wmd.0 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 2020 10:32:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kkE4A/I+M71wdiwA+GD5kTYQwLmK34AjDJQPFBcS/Pg=; b=GL0j8ebqKXufN+zDxWgSqEpDPLx/594xIMN5tns62PWlRuEJAd3IeahaTRqP3nkAfC R0XbFkzLdab9cTtqily2pjQE/wby/HIvNJtVvo+eisUauyneMwvGl871nNMDMMZNDovW OfVVZXHhbpQ9abgiMYDQKGsrFbq6PaKXXnocJPhe89iSz0pgUVrIN+4l31bMy03SAFAQ wL7fmsogRy1JgtIJXT9K4ck2V5h0EQ8mRngTThnxkiz4uMvOa4/EGrxe749p8GfcqZu9 DDhHkBaogUHDbc2E53lozyfnDoox8PO/bpnMWlgJe5BUjwTw7zNu0ALe/o8o9N+QcgZv bfXg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kkE4A/I+M71wdiwA+GD5kTYQwLmK34AjDJQPFBcS/Pg=; b=hDOwpWLgGJr67EGsMDBz9tfeYg/bqcqkWlQ8W2LuDrzvniMsASCCFQN5Bzx7u32+kU rM6QFChVPwMWqBLXEK+aALo0KuGMflasvlC/yQi1PcOq759z9MHrU7ofRgzfTK0ZaZ5c eQOzvt9vitsN8RpjE5dUKFltLAGy3efGFGrjqMjXjCPDJ2TjJ9pVFZ9ZOawXFiD4s3u3 TUkxLr2r5qsjzg38Y2Ip6zNK4+0hl95m5Ewmo35i0Ix5BgghE52wDX9qJWrJ24AirVCE 06k8bw8JViyQoYqow4H+K7ciy9tOPuLtnR3YQkJtxUhR+dNaCTE1urQgwJfQpCMtsSsq xJJw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530WQGaWaLDvhpT2HyzC5ja3B1ncPblYptqsKNptDJFsMkoV3cF5 v/07jA/E0gc24lwF+N/48l83zHGpmzFStuvHfe7uJy+gGdm6Lw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz2EjNEtYrTL6lis9q6BOnFDIi88/ppqyasiVSKyZ9s9V0Fua8RCVN6fGeklvoO9x1PP9kU0DTjkAFBbLqsyWE= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:2c8a:: with SMTP id s132mr19028960wms.119.1606674720746; Sun, 29 Nov 2020 10:32:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Ivaylo Petrov Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 19:31:35 +0100 Message-ID: To: cose Cc: Francesca Palombini Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000004e405b5431c91" Archived-At: Subject: [COSE] Minutes and Recording from IETF 109 session X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 18:32:05 -0000 --0000000000000004e405b5431c91 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello WG! The minutes have been uploaded to datatracker: < https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/materials/minutes-109-cose-01 >. Thank you, Francesca, for taking care of that! The recording of the session is also available: < https://youtu.be/0zhewAM0umc?t=27 > Please send any corrections to this list or to cose-chairs@ietf.org. See you on 2020-12-16 ! - Matthew and Ivaylo COSE WG Chairs --0000000000000004e405b5431c91 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --0000000000000004e405b5431c91-- From nobody Sun Nov 29 14:13:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cose@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67C863A0603 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 2020 14:13:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hyZ7I40x7Nsd for ; Sun, 29 Nov 2020 14:13:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x432.google.com (mail-wr1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2101C3A0644 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 2020 14:13:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x432.google.com with SMTP id r3so12923391wrt.2 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 2020 14:13:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6qiXRhKdpsjX4GMZxs8ANhQoVl7ZhWAv6DOzgxUrZp4=; b=Pg7oKJrVswdaXXhI9V4zu8NQXl9pTXd3O8A72QGVdU0tCdND4uupII/4IEj5s4rla6 dC/nXJ+DxqJCS89P3xszO92TC5BWiVOxNoj3r25l3rttTfMrSBiruuVwWrZkH2jkoG0f VS2jUaFFr8shCE2bZZzWapZUdpxabxjdvLn+y/2F1y0a9Nv98H2Gu3a7r/F+aFSME+Jp 2V3M4WKAjHkWscz+O4XSdB+kEqRcO7PBhxC/NUEP/h8tBAKwoB1A/tvRS7tKZJkwBQML ri3vncDCVVASE99ksgz/MHAdoU8DAD5ESqiauEpC6VlkGjQ4oS83v9hzvxC49j6HdC3O 3/mA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6qiXRhKdpsjX4GMZxs8ANhQoVl7ZhWAv6DOzgxUrZp4=; b=pMvUahzh0/LKkKp+kDgCDj2GCUZ79ltPlYp+1t/R0E8J6D/LlZyQcJtfnWwwwFtleN F0RlZUjhnWeMjzkvOXaN6dLl4dfz0OxYMswLWEAAUiEEbM6h0zwTOAdbZNBuzUUU4wHj KLtY2MAINe7kkdxAvA+E/vi1/EwLnaZGl5IxPXSLDYxkZf/RQnXcgZymQZLH1WGxICXn owNdMH9Nj5VirVJtCeRrOno07K548flPuGo4q/jOu7yEVFyoMqfK1WtCFgy4JRwuJUfS higHQPTsgmio/vw8Js3/rUJFvmyg+0ht/qmh4PmEm/kg7zKOb+maNrDxRIpdu3cY33u6 nOcg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531FFbMffhBb4UmR+BwVWhz7mZYluJTbKOVIhnAHih+bXyKJhHDZ pajqALnNsRRYKYqqvRk0J7xWA8dhIWCYsJreGpiphA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzl1Ck/Dckcg2l8/tpi5JrpJwNYjYYLDUSPe1njK8WMCZjFTgFsv8o3SabMxlXHMwKc70Quzm/gz4Nob2KZaB0= X-Received: by 2002:adf:e490:: with SMTP id i16mr24238660wrm.337.1606687981056; Sun, 29 Nov 2020 14:13:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160324908697.22038.2714972412110979523@ietfa.amsl.com> <20201022152749.GC39170@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20201022152749.GC39170@kduck.mit.edu> From: Ivaylo Petrov Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 23:12:35 +0100 Message-ID: To: Benjamin Kaduk Cc: Roman Danyliw , The IESG , Cose Chairs Wg , draft-ietf-cose-x509@ietf.org, cose Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006049a305b546322e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-cose-x509-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 22:13:06 -0000 --0000000000006049a305b546322e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Roman, Thank you for the review and apologies for the late reply. With commit 9b95515 I believe I have addressed your discuss and comments. Please let me know if any further changes are needed. I plan to address the comments of a few other people here shortly and publish a new version. Best regards, Ivaylo -- Ivaylo Petrov CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without the written consent of the sender. If you have received this message by mistake, please notify the sender immediately by email and delete the message and any file attached to it. Thank you! On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 5:27 PM Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 07:58:06PM -0700, Roman Danyliw via Datatracker > wrote: > > ** Section 5. Per =E2=80=9COn the other hand, an oracle can potentiall= y be > built based > > on detecting the network resources which is only done if the signature > > validation passes.=E2=80=9D, I didn=E2=80=99t follow what this means. > > The scenario is an attacker sending probably-bogus signatures to the node > that behaves in this way. The (lack of) outbound network requests is an > oracle as to whether the signature is valid. This is generally not usefu= l > in its own right, but is a fairly common building block to assemble with > other weaknesses into a consolidated attack, which is why I assumed it wa= s > mentioned. > > -Ben > --0000000000006049a305b546322e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Roman,

Thank you for the review and apologie= s=C2=A0for the=C2=A0late reply. With commit=C2=A09b= 95515=C2=A0I believe I have addressed your discuss and comme= nts. Please let me know if any further changes are needed. I plan to addres= s the comments of a few other people here shortly and publish a new version= .

Best regards,
= Ivaylo
=C2=A0
--
Ivaylo P= etrov


<= /p>

<= div dir=3D"ltr">

CONFIDE= NTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the = sole use of the intended recipient(s).

It is strictly forbidden to s= hare any part of this message with any third party, without the written con= sent of the sender.

<= span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">If y= ou have received this message by mistake, please notify the sender immediat= ely by email and delete the message and any file attached to it. Thank you!=

<= /div>


On Thu, Oct 22, 20= 20 at 5:27 PM Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit= .edu> wrote:
On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 07:58:06PM -0700, Roman Danyliw via Datatracker= wrote:
> ** Section 5.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=9COn the other hand, an oracle can pote= ntially be built based
> on detecting the network resources which is only done if the signature=
> validation passes.=E2=80=9D, I didn=E2=80=99t follow what this means.<= br>
The scenario is an attacker sending probably-bogus signatures to the node that behaves in this way.=C2=A0 The (lack of) outbound network requests is = an
oracle as to whether the signature is valid.=C2=A0 This is generally not us= eful
in its own right, but is a fairly common building block to assemble with other weaknesses into a consolidated attack, which is why I assumed it was<= br> mentioned.

-Ben
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X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kzYU6iKuG-NC for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 04:51:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4AC493A0AE5 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 04:51:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548dca87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.202.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Cl4qb2xd3zyT5; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 13:51:39 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 13:51:39 +0100 Cc: Michael Richardson , cose X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 628433498.909515-4a6d1d4ec1887c64b390dcbc9253af76 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <23F7047A-6BB5-41EA-8674-00BDF4C62514@tzi.org> References: <03E3EAD0-694A-4903-97B8-9E3A004EA911@vigilsec.com> <18362.1606354029@localhost> <29873.1606411284@localhost> To: John Mattsson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [COSE] CBOR Certificates Open Issues X-BeenThere: cose@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: CBOR Object Signing and Encryption List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 12:51:52 -0000 On 2020-11-30, at 12:27, John Mattsson = wrote: >=20 > -255 and -254 (Not that this matters here at all, but I might note that the 1+1 byte = range of integers in CBOR goes from =E2=80=94256 to 255.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten