From nobody Tue Feb 16 01:42:13 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietf.org Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C240A1A8960; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 01:42:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.14.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160216094209.23731.57796.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 01:42:09 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: curdle@ietf.org Subject: [Curdle] I-D Action: draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey-ed25519-01.txt X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 09:42:09 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the CURves, Deprecating and a Little more Encryption of the IETF. Title : Ed25519 for DNSSEC Authors : Ondrej Sury Robert Edmonds Filename : draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey-ed25519-01.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2016-02-16 Abstract: This document describes how to specify Ed25519 keys and signatures in DNS Security (DNSSEC). It uses the Edwards-curve Digital Security Algorithm (EdDSA) with the Ed25519 parameter choice. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey-ed25519/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey-ed25519-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey-ed25519-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Feb 16 01:44:32 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22C3E1B2C76; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 01:44:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.357 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.357 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.006] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2x3dE6QCTzPd; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 01:44:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [IPv6:2001:1488:800:400::400]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CF001B2D04; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 01:44:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from zimbra.rfc1925.org (calcifer.labs.nic.cz [217.31.192.138]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1EAC18181E; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 10:44:26 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1455615867; bh=jUQONSigrBYYf2utDDObnzRIretGBIafxnwI8J5zRug=; h=Date:From:To; b=avliIB8/SM8x8OhHezhSPx5uy5ns//Cj41JYwAaa8IAkvgJs5hL3XYgZ3dG6BNBY0 QUgkE+0mH6l7vQrsa9nTKDkf+bYBIBTyfwEAe1NGr4SWab7URZHCNQXrO4xZQqcMpo FRgC4CaBogQH0TtX+A/g/dKxAhyYRqeyMFT+T7gg= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 10:44:26 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Ond=C5=99ej_Sur=C3=BD?= To: dnsop@ietf.org, curdle@ietf.org Message-ID: <69659582.1176.1455615866944.JavaMail.zimbra@nic.cz> In-Reply-To: <20160216094210.23731.45838.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20160216094210.23731.45838.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Originating-IP: [217.31.192.138] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.6.0_GA_1178 (ZimbraWebClient - FF44 (Linux)/8.6.0_GA_1178) Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey-ed25519-01.txt Thread-Index: K5pzBRhkVt4eOuJcug0iBfHGhe323g== X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.7 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: [Curdle] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey-ed25519-01.txt X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 09:44:30 -0000 Dear colleagues, Robert and I have prepared a new version of Ed25519 curve for use in DNSSEC= that has been adopted in CURDLE WG. The draft now comes with more reasoning why picking yet-another curve over = the NIST curves already standardized. Feedback, nits and improvements are always welcome. Cheers, -- Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD -- Technical Fellow -------------------------------------------- CZ.NIC, z.s.p.o. -- Laborato=C5=99e CZ.NIC Milesovska 5, 130 00 Praha 3, Czech Republic mailto:ondrej.sury@nic.cz https://nic.cz/ -------------------------------------------- ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: "Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD" , "Robert Edmonds" Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 10:42:10 AM Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey-ed25519-01.t= xt A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey-ed25519-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Ondrej Sury and posted to the IETF repository. Name:=09=09draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey-ed25519 Revision:=0901 Title:=09=09Ed25519 for DNSSEC Document date:=092016-02-16 Group:=09=09curdle Pages:=09=097 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-curdle-dnsk= ey-ed25519-01.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey-e= d25519/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey-ed2551= 9-01 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-curdle-dnske= y-ed25519-01 Abstract: This document describes how to specify Ed25519 keys and signatures in DNS Security (DNSSEC). It uses the Edwards-curve Digital Security Algorithm (EdDSA) with the Ed25519 parameter choice. = =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Tue Feb 16 08:27:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9470F1B2D28; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 08:07:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id umznmv004lDB; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 08:07:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from time-travellers.nl.eu.org (c.time-travellers.nl.eu.org [IPv6:2a02:2770::21a:4aff:fea3:eeaa]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 386141B2CE4; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 08:07:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [2001:470:78c8:2:224:9bff:fe13:3a9c] (helo=pallas.home.time-travellers.org) by time-travellers.nl.eu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1aVi9U-0001yS-Be; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 16:07:00 +0000 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 17:07:00 +0100 From: Shane Kerr To: =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= Message-ID: <20160216170700.74fb5b8a@pallas.home.time-travellers.org> In-Reply-To: <69659582.1176.1455615866944.JavaMail.zimbra@nic.cz> References: <20160216094210.23731.45838.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <69659582.1176.1455615866944.JavaMail.zimbra@nic.cz> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.13.2 (GTK+ 2.24.29; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 08:27:33 -0800 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, curdle@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Curdle] [DNSOP] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey-ed25519-01.txt X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 16:07:08 -0000 Ond=C5=99ej, Thanks! This addresses my main concern with the proposal. This seems fine to me - perhaps even a first step to deprecating ECDSA. ;) Cheers, -- Shane At 2016-02-16 10:44:26 +0100 Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD wrote: > Dear colleagues, >=20 > Robert and I have prepared a new version of Ed25519 curve for use in DNSS= EC that has been adopted in CURDLE WG. >=20 > The draft now comes with more reasoning why picking yet-another curve ove= r the NIST curves already standardized. >=20 > Feedback, nits and improvements are always welcome. >=20 > Cheers, > -- > Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD -- Technical Fellow > -------------------------------------------- > CZ.NIC, z.s.p.o. -- Laborato=C5=99e CZ.NIC > Milesovska 5, 130 00 Praha 3, Czech Republic > mailto:ondrej.sury@nic.cz https://nic.cz/ > -------------------------------------------- >=20 > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: "Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD" , "Robert Edmonds" > Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 10:42:10 AM > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey-ed25519-01= .txt >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey-ed25519-01.txt > has been successfully submitted by Ondrej Sury and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey-ed25519 > Revision: 01 > Title: Ed25519 for DNSSEC > Document date: 2016-02-16 > Group: curdle > Pages: 7 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-curdle-dn= skey-ed25519-01.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey= -ed25519/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey-ed25= 519-01 > Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-curdle-dns= key-ed25519-01 >=20 > Abstract: > This document describes how to specify Ed25519 keys and signatures in > DNS Security (DNSSEC). It uses the Edwards-curve Digital Security > Algorithm (EdDSA) with the Ed25519 parameter choice. >=20 > = =20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 > _______________________________________________ > DNSOP mailing list > DNSOP@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From nobody Fri Feb 19 14:06:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45E661A8ACD for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 14:06:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.944 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.944 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FU_ENDS_2_WRDS=0.255, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DbwXcVnp0t6E for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 14:06:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from usplmg20.ericsson.net (usplmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF3231A8A8B for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 14:06:30 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79dd6d000003091-af-56c78df42bb6 Received: from EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.75]) by usplmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 6D.B6.12433.4FD87C65; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 22:49:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB107.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.124]) by EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 17:06:29 -0500 From: Daniel Migault To: "curdle@ietf.org" CC: "curdle@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Adoption Thread-Index: AdFrW7Y6ZLPJ6umuRb60vySk2wfaGA== Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 22:06:28 +0000 Message-ID: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.9] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_005_2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EACeusaamb107erics_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmphleLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZXLrHW/dL7/Ewg/crDS22LpzF7MDosWTJ T6YAxigum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujK1nT7MX9O1gqth32riB8fsqpi5GTg4JAROJDW9esUDYYhIX 7q1n62Lk4hASOMIocef8dShnOaPEoa6dzCBVbAJGEm2H+tlBbBEBdYkTh3awgtjMQPa3ng6w GmEBIYlHczqZIGrEJTp+3GCGsPUk/k86B1bPIqAq0XtiLtgcXgFfiamHboHZjEBXfD+1hgli prjErSfzoS4VkXh48TQbhC0q8fLxP1YIW1FiX/90dpBDmQW6GSVufL7HCDFUUOLkzCcsExiF ZyGZNQtZ3SwkdRBF+RKt3/YyQdg6Egt2f2KDsLUlli18zQxjnznwmAlTXEdi86WdUHMUJdo6 Z0PVLGWUOL1TBaams38ZXM2U7ofsMPGlbdOAdnGAxbvulEGElzFK7L7NA1PS/OoeG7LWBYxC qxg5SosLcnLTjQw2MQLTwzEJNt0djPenex5iFOBgVOLhNUg7HibEmlhWXJl7iFEFqPXRhtUX GKVY8vLzUpVEePcDk44Qb0piZVVqUX58UWlOavEhRmkOFiVx3qUO68OEBNITS1KzU1MLUotg skwcnFINjG6HGDheefO+jP+SZB/0pH9xRrNv9XeRHdE/Lq6NFM/j9ZgTesRw+vyfV56tigxd F67fyHLnlMaeMtuIkILakPy3JrXlnYucApcf2KyfMJVx696p7Ps9Vyx7Gz5LZ3ureq32k38f Z393dK6f18tw04CnflauuIZi9VzDyc5iOb7p1fMefzmmp8RSnJFoqMVcVJwIACQNUrwXAwAA Archived-At: Subject: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 22:06:33 -0000 --_005_2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EACeusaamb107erics_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EACeusaamb107erics_" --_000_2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EACeusaamb107erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Does anyone object that we declare there is a consensus to adopt the follow= ing drafts? If so please let us know by Feb 26. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bjh21-ssh-ed25519-02 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-josefsson-ssh-curves-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sury-dnskey-ed25519-03 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sury-dnskey-ed448-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-josefsson-pkix-newcurves-01 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-josefsson-pkix-eddsa-04 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ssh-ext-info https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rsa-dsa-sha2-256 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-baushke-ssh-dh-group-sha2 BR, Rich and Daniel [Ericsson] DANIEL MIGAULT Researcher Research Ericsson 8500 Boulevard Decarie H4P 2N2 Montreal, Canada Phone +1 514 345 7900 46628 Mobile +1 514 452 2160 daniel.migault@ericsson.com www.ericsson.com [http://www.ericsson.com/current_campaign] Legal entity: Ericsson Canada Inc., registered office in Montreal. This Com= munication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on the basis of = the terms set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer --_000_2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EACeusaamb107erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

Does anyone object that we declare there is a consen= sus to adopt the following drafts? If so please let us know by Feb 26.=

 

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bjh= 21-ssh-ed25519-02

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-= josefsson-ssh-curves-00

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-s= ury-dnskey-ed25519-03

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sur= y-dnskey-ed448-00

https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-josefsson-pkix-newcurves-01

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-= josefsson-pkix-eddsa-04

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ssh-ex= t-info

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra= ft-rsa-dsa-sha2-256

https://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/draft-baushke-ssh-dh-group-sha2

 

 

BR,

 

Rich and Daniel

 

=

DANIEL MIGAULT
Researcher
Research


Ericsson
8500 Boulevard Decarie
H4P 2N2 Montreal, Canada
Phone +1 514 345 7900 46628
Mobile +1 514 452 2160
daniel.migault@ericsson.com
www.ericsson.com



3D"http://www.ericsson.com/current_campaign"

 

Legal entity: Ericsson Canad= a Inc., registered office in Montreal. This Communication is Confidential. = We only send and receive email on the basis of the terms set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer

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Fri Feb 19 14:56:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFC321A8ACD for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 14:56:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.347 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.347 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EJhHgKvDFueX for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 14:56:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E3B81A89F0 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 14:56:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.32.60.122] (50-1-98-216.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.98.216]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id u1JMuHuu063620 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 19 Feb 2016 15:56:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-98-216.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.98.216] claimed to be [10.32.60.122] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: "Daniel Migault" Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 14:56:17 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.3r5187) Archived-At: Cc: "curdle@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 22:56:23 -0000 Did you mean draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey-ed25519, not the personal draft draft-sury-dnskey-ed25519? More importantly, you included the 448 algorithms in your list even though many people expressed hesitation about them in the earlier threads on this list. Personally, I would prefer that we just deal with 25519 for now instead of confusing the user community with "strong enough for everyone" and "stonger enougher for even morethaneveryone". If a small number of national security agencies want stronger than 128-bit security, they can do their own standardization. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Fri Feb 19 15:42:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A502B1B34E3 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 15:42:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bT2vrcmL2djs for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 15:42:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-x22a.google.com (mail-lb0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A91C1B34C2 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 15:42:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lb0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id x4so56162558lbm.0 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 15:42:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=BG4MLVUB4TPW+41Xu8tvRSIZqvOwZptzF+tUgIo6TDQ=; b=in5k8FKsGEonWR4nf886OOjwq4Md8u2Mo3XZ4VUyPNO3xFaeSbYxiBlqKa8vibx/Nv g2Gr/dueRZJaD4FIIcDcyLa8ghYf7G8HRhDqLrXzLs7sahX7SjGJ9Lb9sixBAjaLUdiP Fzf5W5JMRiae7oPMEIfxBS1fK6NBnNpBuVqi3J8ZdV7oLby2UdslJz5qVSLw/6Wh0okk EA7z0PatgZ34dbibKsEHC/k8sFnWLGby1fCf2QVWCa3GvqLyrLAVQCZdm/qqeqswITZe eZoQEWLt3cniULztjh7aMH3m3BwOAJ8tJ4/15k1tGfo9eV8fn2NM8LXpLBgsm7+RVdqP 1TVw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=BG4MLVUB4TPW+41Xu8tvRSIZqvOwZptzF+tUgIo6TDQ=; b=chuSKdkGeIMUHw437YATn7csIDulkLWkRnkz/3i0GkK37ts+b4GsqkYDSyE5LTERBh jyK+G7H/RYgDRC1CfoO670aXU8Ajes43S+bcOkRXfLKgHhMZPQESbBdZr+GXgoFuWHRs oop1AMAXNUH+sGx0J+IYiF8qGgDX+fXe7B5Bg1geP8+ERsV9aruxkbI1qH1R52lYxMNu 4pOJMo3mluqiXwk62aUzBWX6fCAw+PqrZBF6+PITfkbBnUJ7lezVdbxZKE1cDh+d82Bw KzTV1qgGFRDPQ+GJ2BvfZh+gpBfv5iWHOvA2D4Jlx64YSdKzdT2Dmg6IKJpb+N55iNTv ZMKQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YORgFfbRHPsadt0HK7pSnpDTQF/zOMLmXBhIy9EF95uf/X3n2xUoKfEeVWB4MBrIsbvFTu4HUFkL0tvXcQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.141.97 with SMTP id rn1mr6614273lbb.80.1455925373517; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 15:42:53 -0800 (PST) Sender: hallam@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.49.80 with HTTP; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 15:42:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 18:42:53 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: zUUJAcy0jF3oLg7Nzt_XDhz-Nas Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Daniel Migault , "curdle@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 23:42:56 -0000 On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > Did you mean draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey-ed25519, not the personal draft > draft-sury-dnskey-ed25519? > > More importantly, you included the 448 algorithms in your list even though > many people expressed hesitation about them in the earlier threads on this > list. Personally, I would prefer that we just deal with 25519 for now > instead of confusing the user community with "strong enough for everyone" > and "stonger enougher for even morethaneveryone". > > If a small number of national security agencies want stronger than 128-bit > security, they can do their own standardization. We are chartered to do Curve448. We should do curve 448. I am opposed to watering down security to what people think is adequate. There is an existing deployment on the old NIST Curve 384. I want to replace that with the CFRG work. Only a stronger replacement is going to be acceptable. The cost in making the change does not change significantly with the number of algorithms involved. So doing half the job now and half later means double the work. From nobody Fri Feb 19 16:17:49 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A28C71B3182 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 16:17:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kLqKbABJReWM for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 16:17:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0143.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C80BD1B2C39 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 16:17:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from BY2PR05CA052.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.141.250.42) by BL2PR05MB033.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.255.228.139) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.409.15; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 00:17:42 +0000 Received: from BY2FFO11FD027.protection.gbl (2a01:111:f400:7c0c::162) by BY2PR05CA052.outlook.office365.com (2a01:111:e400:2c5f::42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.409.15 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 00:17:42 +0000 Authentication-Results: spf=softfail (sender IP is 66.129.239.18) smtp.mailfrom=juniper.net; hallambaker.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;hallambaker.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=juniper.net; Received-SPF: SoftFail (protection.outlook.com: domain of transitioning juniper.net discourages use of 66.129.239.18 as permitted sender) Received: from p-emfe01a-sac.jnpr.net (66.129.239.18) by BY2FFO11FD027.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.1.15.216) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.415.6 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 00:17:41 +0000 Received: from magenta.juniper.net (172.17.27.123) by p-emfe01a-sac.jnpr.net (172.24.192.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 16:17:40 -0800 Received: from eng-mail01.juniper.net (eng-mail01.juniper.net [172.17.28.114]) by magenta.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id u1K0HdD21260; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 16:17:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mdb@juniper.net) Received: from eng-mail01.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eng-mail01.juniper.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6639D11454; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 16:17:39 -0800 (PST) To: Phillip Hallam-Baker In-Reply-To: References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> Comments: In-reply-to: Phillip Hallam-Baker message dated "Fri, 19 Feb 2016 18:42:53 -0500." 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BL2PR05MB033; 5:D3RCqZlQ1x5qg7qV3PxvLHyqaHshk5SEvYotchVW4S6kd4bCD1MYW10UxnkUmL70iBvuvNMu6Gxhg8BoTAIAtsNRhBLH0GgL0QfJ8v8Xd1NhY0zuYcw0GH9cWZPnYY2XN8h/AiQjuj5eof0Ipwr+6Q==; 24:rQibCFCSsX4QF7rAFVCw+jdD6pENhXwecYdTAuSjH7L7pdC75YMkTwowxIJXPITXn970f2DIReS+Q+WItjkPwq3xdTfBhvC4C+Iv0P4ECD8= SpamDiagnosticOutput: 1:23 SpamDiagnosticMetadata: NSPM X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Feb 2016 00:17:41.4291 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; Ip=[66.129.239.18]; Helo=[p-emfe01a-sac.jnpr.net] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL2PR05MB033 Archived-At: Cc: Daniel Migault , "curdle@ietf.org" , Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 00:17:47 -0000 I have no problems with any of the drafts. There is an open question if there is a need for curve448 to use SHA2-512 rather than SHA2-256. The discussion has mostly occured on the ietf-ssh@netbsd.org list and asks the question because of the suggestion of this document: https://www.iad.gov/iad/library/ia-guidance/ia-solutions-for-classified/algorithm-guidance/cnsa-suite-and-quantum-computing-faq.cfm wherein SHA2-256 is not considered strong enough for Top Secret and SHA2-384 or higher would seem to satisfy those requirements. I leave the merits of such a selection to the cryptographers on this list who likely have a better understanding of the security implications of such a change. Thank you, -- Mark From nobody Fri Feb 19 17:31:41 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B1CC1A1B3D for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 17:31:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.944 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.944 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FU_ENDS_2_WRDS=0.255, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1kTxuGfiGqXD for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 17:31:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from usplmg20.ericsson.net (usplmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4CA01A1A64 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 17:31:35 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79dd6d000003091-ef-56c7be032c2e Received: from EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.78]) by usplmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 71.1D.12433.30EB7C65; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 02:14:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB107.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.124]) by EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.78]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 20:31:34 -0500 From: Daniel Migault To: "curdle@ietf.org" CC: "curdle@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Curdle] Adoption Thread-Index: AdFrW7Y6ZLPJ6umuRb60vySk2wfaGAAIVPAg Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 01:31:33 +0000 Message-ID: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5F4C@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.11] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_005_2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5F4Ceusaamb107erics_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprFKsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPny7zvuNhBk/XGFlsXTiL2YHRY8mS n0wBjFFcNimpOZllqUX6dglcGVdPTWUtaL7BVPFyr34DY9sJpi5GTg4JAROJCZ1rWSFsMYkL 99azdTFycQgJHGGUmPJyOiOEs5xRYn/TURaQKjYBI4m2Q/3sILaIgLrEiUM7wLqZgexvPR3M XYwcHMICchINP3NATBEBeYm2j4IQppHEl/VhIMUsAqoSE89fAhvCK+Ar8eXecrDhQkD21JPb GEFsTgE/ia/bnoDVMAKd9v3UGiaIReISt57MhzpfROLhxdNsELaoxMvH/6BeUZL4+Hs+O8j1 zALdjBINZ1+xQSwTlDg58wnLBEbRWUhmzUJWNwtJ3Sygu5kF8iV2r/aHqNeRWLD7ExuErS2x bOFrZhj7zIHHTJjiOhKbL+1kgbAVJdo6Z0PtWsoocerLcnaYoumHtrPBFE3pfggXX9o2jQ3i BkWJrjtlEL3LGCXO73zGBFMzf9YbdmS9CxiFVjFylBYX5OSmGxlsYgSmkmMSbLo7GO9P9zzE KMDBqMTDa5B2PEyINbGsuDL3EKMKUOujDasvMEqx5OXnpSqJ8HIsBErzpiRWVqUW5ccXleak Fh9ilOZgURLnXeqwPkxIID2xJDU7NbUgtQgmy8TBKdXAuMDoWNGfiZ8ydYrfvSk5E3Xgr7Li 3pzL2hOK/065KP7uU+ccK7Nrrut0/vQnmul8Oe/F9f58wpSt3FcWbd8pw8kVt4xjvrDh51AX tq1u0wv0d1wti0kx8nYqXPI4eXq9bEOXUPG6k/wZf9SlGK9MUxX/X8XmzfPTd3vF5Jq0iYWt TfdK1/ZGK7EUZyQaajEXFScCAF1s61ctAwAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 01:31:39 -0000 --_005_2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5F4Ceusaamb107erics_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5F4Ceusaamb107erics_" --_000_2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5F4Ceusaamb107erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, The URLs were badly displayed on the previous mail. For clarification, I am= re-sending the list of draft we think there is a consensus for adoption. I= f anyone object, please let us know by Feb 26. draft-bjh21-ssh-ed25519-02 draft-josefsson-ssh-curves-00 draft-sury-dnskey-ed25519-03 draft-sury-dnskey-ed448-00 draft-josefsson-pkix-newcurves-01 draft-josefsson-pkix-eddsa-04 draft-ssh-ext-info draft-rsa-dsa-sha2-256 draft-baushke-ssh-dh-group-sha2 BR, Rich and Daniel From: Curdle [mailto:curdle-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Migault Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 5:06 PM To: curdle@ietf.org Cc: curdle@ietf.org Subject: [Curdle] Adoption Hi, Does anyone object that we declare there is a consensus to adopt the follow= ing drafts? If so please let us know by Feb 26. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bjh21-ssh-ed25519-02 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-josefsson-ssh-curves-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sury-dnskey-ed25519-03 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sury-dnskey-ed448-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-josefsson-pkix-newcurves-01 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-josefsson-pkix-eddsa-04 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ssh-ext-info https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rsa-dsa-sha2-256 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-baushke-ssh-dh-group-sha2 BR, Rich and Daniel [Ericsson] DANIEL MIGAULT Researcher Research Ericsson 8500 Boulevard Decarie H4P 2N2 Montreal, Canada Phone +1 514 345 7900 46628 Mobile +1 514 452 2160 daniel.migault@ericsson.com www.ericsson.com [http://www.ericsson.com/current_campaign] Legal entity: Ericsson Canada Inc., registered office in Montreal. This Com= munication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on the basis of = the terms set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer --_000_2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5F4Ceusaamb107erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

The URLs were badly displayed on the previous mail. For clari= fication, I am re-sending the list of draft we think there is a consensus f= or adoption. If anyone object, please let us know by Feb 26.

 

 

draft-bjh21-ssh-ed25519-02

draft-josefsson-ssh-curves-00

draft-sury-dnskey-ed25519-03

draft-sury-dnskey-ed448-00

draft-josefsson-pkix-newcurves-01

draft-josefsson-pkix-eddsa-04

draft-ssh-ext-info

draft-rsa-dsa-sha2-256

draft-baushke-ssh-dh-group-sha2

 

BR,

 

Rich and Daniel

 

From: Curdle [= mailto:curdle-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Migault
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 5:06 PM
To: curdle@ietf.org
Cc: curdle@ietf.org
Subject: [Curdle] Adoption

 

Hi,

 

Does anyone object that we declare there is a consen= sus to adopt the following drafts? If so please let us know by Feb 26.=

 

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bjh= 21-ssh-ed25519-02

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-= josefsson-ssh-curves-00

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-s= ury-dnskey-ed25519-03

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sur= y-dnskey-ed448-00

https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-josefsson-pkix-newcurves-01

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-= josefsson-pkix-eddsa-04

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ssh-ex= t-info

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra= ft-rsa-dsa-sha2-256

https://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/draft-baushke-ssh-dh-group-sha2

 

 

BR,

 

Rich and Daniel

 

3D"Ericsson"

DANIEL MIGAULT
Researcher
Research


Ericsson
8500 Boulevard Decarie
H4P 2N2 Montreal, Canada
Phone +1 514 345 7900 46628
Mobile +1 514 452 2160
daniel.migault@ericsson.com<= /a>
www.ericsson.com



3D"=<= /o:p>

 

Legal entity: Ericsson Canad= a Inc., registered office in Montreal. This Communication is Confidential. = We only send and receive email on the basis of the terms set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer

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Fri Feb 19 17:43:28 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38E341AD0C7; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 17:43:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.944 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.944 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FU_ENDS_2_WRDS=0.255, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JzyZpiJJatcm; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 17:43:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from usplmg20.ericsson.net (usplmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 771EB1AD190; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 17:43:25 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79dd6d000003091-fb-56c7c0c94428 Received: from EUSAAHC003.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.81]) by usplmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 22.6D.12433.9C0C7C65; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 02:26:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB107.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.124]) by EUSAAHC003.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 20:43:23 -0500 From: Daniel Migault To: "curdle@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: aes-gcm@openssh next step Thread-Index: AdFrfobJ1lSZhwDgQH+51/NprQVP+Q== Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 01:43:22 +0000 Message-ID: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5F6E@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.11] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_005_2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5F6Eeusaamb107erics_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprAKsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPoO7JA8fDDHYf1LKY2bOB2WLrwlnM Fh/uPWZzYPZYsuQnk8fChz2MAUxRXDYpqTmZZalF+nYJXBm/J2UXPPrLWHGp9wRzA+ObT4xd jJwcEgImEtu3TGWDsMUkLtxbD2RzcQgJHGGUeNI9hRHCWc4oMeXobHaQKjYBI4m2Q/1gtoiA usSJQztYuxg5OJgFUiQ2Xk8CCQsLKEu8vXwOqkRD4t+cy2wQtp7EpvstTCDlLAKqEuveF4KE eQV8JZ73LmMFsRmBbvh+ag0TiM0sIC5x68l8JojbRCQeXjwNdaeoxMvH/1ghbCWJj7/ns0PU dzNKrG7LgZgpKHFy5hOWCYzCs5CMmoWkbBaSMoh4vsTyT8eZIWwdiQW7P7FB2NoSyxa+Zoax zxx4zIQpriOx+dJOqDmKEm2ds4FquIDspYwSrR8OMMEUtbU1M8IUTel+yA4TX9o2DWgZB1i8 604ZRO8yRok9C3ayQsR1JHYsDkXWuoBRaBUjR2lxQU5uupHBJkZg2jgmwaa7g/H+dM9DjAIc jEo8vAZpx8OEWBPLiitzDzGqALU+2rD6AqMUS15+XqqSCC/HQqA0b0piZVVqUX58UWlOavEh RmkOFiVx3qUO68OEBNITS1KzU1MLUotgskwcnFINjB36B5S+30qbnvbEVIxV4pasCEtJ5p6a sI9BLIsrdy5aEn1czyloGX/mKc8f745N+NWoZCxx15ll69W4fc3bJm7NfWF+6Ob/jpttL97y rU0XkT4p+u/h1olNxxkX1rzjULv4+O1Tl+/3rrit6pW8uqjA8JLO3sfPekpCn6iJPbr7+KB/ 6ItEXyklluKMREMt5qLiRAB++YcWIwMAAA== Archived-At: Cc: "ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org" , "curdle-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: [Curdle] aes-gcm@openssh next step X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 01:43:27 -0000 --_005_2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5F6Eeusaamb107erics_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5F6Eeusaamb107erics_" --_000_2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5F6Eeusaamb107erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, A few discussion have been raised around ea-gcm@openssh, suggesting some ad= ditional work should be done. We would like to understand if there is a con= sensus on what should be achieved. BR, Daniel [Ericsson] DANIEL MIGAULT Researcher Research Ericsson 8500 Boulevard Decarie H4P 2N2 Montreal, Canada Phone +1 514 345 7900 46628 Mobile +1 514 452 2160 daniel.migault@ericsson.com www.ericsson.com [http://www.ericsson.com/current_campaign] Legal entity: Ericsson Canada Inc., registered office in Montreal. This Com= munication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on the basis of = the terms set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer --_000_2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5F6Eeusaamb107erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

A few discussion have been raised around ea-gcm@open= ssh, suggesting some additional work should be done. We would like to under= stand if there is a consensus on what should be achieved.

 

BR,

Daniel

 

 

=

DANIEL MIGAULT
Researcher
Research


Ericsson
8500 Boulevard Decarie
H4P 2N2 Montreal, Canada
Phone +1 514 345 7900 46628
Mobile +1 514 452 2160
daniel.migault@ericsson.com
www.ericsson.com



3D"http://www.ericsson.com/current_campaign"

 

Legal entity: Ericsson Canad= a Inc., registered office in Montreal. This Communication is Confidential. = We only send and receive email on the basis of the terms set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer

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"Mark D. Baushke" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Daniel Migault , "curdle@ietf.org" , Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 01:47:58 -0000 On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 7:17 PM, Mark D. Baushke wrote: > I have no problems with any of the drafts. > > There is an open question if there is a need for curve448 > to use SHA2-512 rather than SHA2-256. Doesn't the curve448 draft require SHA2-512? It is always possible to insert another hash, but isn't the signature function specified over an input consisting of an arbitrary length bit string rather than over the output of a hash function? > The discussion has mostly occured on the ietf-ssh@netbsd.org > list and asks the question because of the suggestion of this > document: > > https://www.iad.gov/iad/library/ia-guidance/ia-solutions-for-classified/algorithm-guidance/cnsa-suite-and-quantum-computing-faq.cfm > > wherein SHA2-256 is not considered strong enough for Top Secret and > SHA2-384 or higher would seem to satisfy those requirements. I don't agree that meeting the criteria for US Top Secret should be a requirement, it is only just another national standard. But providing an equivalent level of security should be. We want it to be possible for NIST to adopt CFRG curves in place of their 15 year old curves. From nobody Fri Feb 19 18:38:32 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB6E31B2E0E for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 18:38:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HwaAigC3Ol6C for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 18:38:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw0-x22f.google.com (mail-yw0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 017C01B2D8B for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 18:38:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id g127so81921242ywf.2 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 18:38:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=EkPerrVUTS6kVGbCvmIlNg2e1zmE4gSfsH3FSuzN6nQ=; b=rDfNpaSs/sxdRUkK2HCYkY4W04stgbjdqyXa2Wdzy9t3Feqa4QOt+SkIY28dkBHyvx 8BPgkEvho+da0qZN2lomG2kqfV5jgwgzOPeNWlLuSg4pbsgEpe8VCFkdlo5nUqx8dhT4 vE4yp1IzHJrdM9DPhBjrPVj6X9jxIsbLhGV/578NGm4fiEaqDak08pPqXdrdNGQ73Z1B CdYTy7/0Qz8XnKN0vzCW2Sy9rTjznxif0KSTOWEah/TWPUNZnULmntFW+ipEJDmrmj96 VhNu3S6JvtN4IK0Ga6In37xTfUtuwvwoAJohPw4GojmAmNL2BBT+k/XlGmIy/FSbLmcK uIiQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=EkPerrVUTS6kVGbCvmIlNg2e1zmE4gSfsH3FSuzN6nQ=; b=Ck0BtI1w4Igr8152Ld9ypn3DixPCyA47zZrwDs/4z9Lg+qfOcDcAttYcWwMO6UFEWO fx39JgUbtq829+ch9+O+g/ngydRpDf/xtuOaR0196z5DhxChNWSsXeUQrDGOlR+D7KGg CfYCUYaUDiB2KapcGLh525gdKJiA4WNcEaCBwdrWdGvVkdEWP/NVazmuxA+8cEYRGMLh ovbcea130JkRZYEhYsVtcQAVeqB49EVY9DVFmQQM9DDoDLaT8dToITx0SG83DzWAhpLj VSzoGroZ1Yq/XbLFoTcnGm/HmFjvx4E9jGedH/xQgyHSXXaBDYluEfG9WjamVWHi+U/P 4o5g== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOTGNSEhOxZ1GFklB/+gvScfx1G84fftQ8YIjmibyItnl1E7D0o6yW8c1kYhPn0GiDdN4NU6IvIUaAlMQw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.129.81.203 with SMTP id f194mr8474415ywb.97.1455935908289; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 18:38:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.13.216.138 with HTTP; Fri, 19 Feb 2016 18:38:28 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 18:38:28 -0800 Message-ID: From: Watson Ladd To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11457224a128bc052c2a7e29 Archived-At: Cc: Curdle , Paul Hoffman , Daniel Migault Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 02:38:31 -0000 --001a11457224a128bc052c2a7e29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Feb 19, 2016 3:42 PM, "Phillip Hallam-Baker" wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > > Did you mean draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey-ed25519, not the personal draft > > draft-sury-dnskey-ed25519? > > > > More importantly, you included the 448 algorithms in your list even though > > many people expressed hesitation about them in the earlier threads on this > > list. Personally, I would prefer that we just deal with 25519 for now > > instead of confusing the user community with "strong enough for everyone" > > and "stonger enougher for even morethaneveryone". > > > > If a small number of national security agencies want stronger than 128-bit > > security, they can do their own standardization. > > We are chartered to do Curve448. We should do curve 448. > > I am opposed to watering down security to what people think is > adequate. There is an existing deployment on the old NIST Curve 384. I > want to replace that with the CFRG work. Only a stronger replacement > is going to be acceptable. What is the actual consequence of a quantum or classical break for authentication? Answer: assuming that you've migrated by the time the break happens, nothing. What about encryption? You lose all confidentiality even for old messages. There is no reason to use Curve448 in authentication. Using it is actively harmful as it makes authentication slow and includes unnecessary flexibility. > > The cost in making the change does not change significantly with the > number of algorithms involved. So doing half the job now and half > later means double the work. > > _______________________________________________ > Curdle mailing list > Curdle@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/curdle --001a11457224a128bc052c2a7e29 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Feb 19, 2016 3:42 PM, "Phillip Hallam-Baker" <phill@hallambaker.com>= wrote:
>
> On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> wrote:=
> > Did you mean draft-ietf-curdle-dnskey-ed25519, not the personal d= raft
> > draft-sury-dnskey-ed25519?
> >
> > More importantly, you included the 448 algorithms in your list ev= en though
> > many people expressed hesitation about them in the earlier thread= s on this
> > list. Personally, I would prefer that we just deal with 25519 for= now
> > instead of confusing the user community with "strong enough = for everyone"
> > and "stonger enougher for even morethaneveryone".
> >
> > If a small number of national security agencies want stronger tha= n 128-bit
> > security, they can do their own standardization.
>
> We are chartered to do Curve448. We should do curve 448.
>
> I am opposed to watering down security to what people think is
> adequate. There is an existing deployment on the old NIST Curve 384. I=
> want to replace that with the CFRG work. Only a stronger replacement > is going to be acceptable.

What is the actual consequence of a quantum or classical bre= ak for authentication? Answer: assuming that you've migrated by the tim= e the break happens, nothing. What about encryption? You lose all confident= iality even for old messages.

There is no reason to use C= urve448 in authentication. Using it is actively harmful as it makes authent= ication slow and includes unnecessary flexibility.

>
> The cost in making the change does not change significantly with the > number of algorithms involved. So doing half the job now and half
> later means double the work.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Curdle mailing list
> Curdle@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/curdle

--001a11457224a128bc052c2a7e29-- From nobody Sat Feb 20 06:25:05 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88D621A9100 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 06:25:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.707 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.707 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.006, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OkoqlUd2kIle for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 06:25:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com (prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com [23.79.238.175]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FC2E1A90B2 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 06:25:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.imss70 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04AD343343D; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 14:25:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from prod-mail-relay10.akamai.com (prod-mail-relay10.akamai.com [172.27.118.251]) by prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2159433401; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 14:25:01 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; s=a1; t=1455978301; bh=oMz71zR+vNckIrqJfQJjgf8BPOPDJ1bbtv3eaS1GnTk=; l=148; h=From:To:CC:Date:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=XBSDurKSzeLbXsgWW0Ktj+YT5BlKrCkL00d4oY0vU7HR15gs2aDPSvHxXwVpfLTew PvoOYXv0Z4cSb6pYtVyP+z867zQt2hlaKlCEvnOy732W1Tz6gG8qn4H1z36NaYeFpz E6L80z4B3Pjyu0CD/sUS3T8WqjmPtDwG/6gjePSg= Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com (ustx2ex-cas5.msg.corp.akamai.com [172.27.25.34]) by prod-mail-relay10.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C40891FC86; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 14:25:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.27.101) by ustx2ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.27.103) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1076.9; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:24:55 -0600 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.6.131]) by ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.6.131]) with mapi id 15.00.1076.000; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:24:55 -0600 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Phillip Hallam-Baker , Paul Hoffman Thread-Topic: [Curdle] Adoption Thread-Index: AdFrW7Y6ZLPJ6umuRb60vySk2wfaGAAP1HaAAAGgo4AAEi694A== Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 14:24:55 +0000 Message-ID: <7a5d240a791940b7864b1d666bf1b634@ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.43.71] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Daniel Migault , "curdle@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 14:25:04 -0000 Speaking as chair, Phil's right: 448 is in the charter. Speaking as an individual: it would feel wrong for us not to pick up the CF= RG work.=20 From nobody Sat Feb 20 07:03:35 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FC3A1ACCF4 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 07:03:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.347 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.347 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Prqg3OaJLXC1 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 07:03:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B1851AC3C4 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 07:03:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.114.1] (50-1-98-216.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.98.216]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id u1KF3VhP091411 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:03:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-98-216.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.98.216] claimed to be [192.168.114.1] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: "Salz, Rich" Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 07:03:31 -0800 Message-ID: <41916DA1-63A5-487E-A3BD-725B2E95BA1E@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <7a5d240a791940b7864b1d666bf1b634@ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> <7a5d240a791940b7864b1d666bf1b634@ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.3r5187) Archived-At: Cc: "curdle@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 15:03:35 -0000 On 20 Feb 2016, at 6:24, Salz, Rich wrote: > Speaking as chair, Phil's right: 448 is in the charter. > Speaking as an individual: it would feel wrong for us not to pick up > the CFRG work. Historically, the CFRG, as an RG, does lots of work that is not yet meant for IETF adoption. The IETF gets to pick which of the outputs are appropriate for its protocols and operational guidance. The fact that 448 is in the charter is irrelevant to the question of adoption. Lots of WGs take a wide charter and work on a narrower subset based on discussion about the actual value of the bits in the charter. To date, no one has given any reason to need a signature mechanism with more than 255 bits of effective strength. People here, and in the CFRG, have expressed concern that a proliferation of signature mechanisms has a negative operational impact. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Sat Feb 20 07:44:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CD6E1ACCF4 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 07:44:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.707 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.707 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.006, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tpv-ZUbpSB0g for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 07:44:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com (prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com [23.79.238.175]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75CE61ACD03 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 07:44:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.imss70 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67F4443343E; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 15:44:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from prod-mail-relay11.akamai.com (prod-mail-relay11.akamai.com [172.27.118.250]) by prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF2C433401; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 15:44:34 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; s=a1; t=1455983074; bh=c3lJ6xqPpN8d8QWjeG2cK94TaAzOkI9yjESIYUphqp8=; l=538; h=From:To:CC:Date:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=mvw8jvBzooHH1lRx9ylB7a6GdMmL0eqpMSKtkcCmUls2w296dCJb2uJlCNW7BiVXR kOCb0K0HB1oQjsq4JgSEIRdojHa1HFRxq71E2ZPnAdz50d6mSKiB6yqvW+0ioFIbqA RIld4yRMn2jZYZasLPtvNLhn4kJ3yqRCuXCyCWjw= Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com (ustx2ex-cas1.msg.corp.akamai.com [172.27.25.30]) by prod-mail-relay11.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BFCD1FC85; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 15:44:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1LAG.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.27.106) by ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.27.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1076.9; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:44:33 -0600 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.27.101) by ustx2ex-dag1lag.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.27.106) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1076.9; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:44:33 -0600 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.6.131]) by ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.6.131]) with mapi id 15.00.1076.000; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:44:33 -0600 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Paul Hoffman Thread-Topic: [Curdle] Adoption Thread-Index: AdFrW7Y6ZLPJ6umuRb60vySk2wfaGAAP1HaAAAGgo4AAEi694AAN+F2AAAs3P5A= Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 15:44:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> <7a5d240a791940b7864b1d666bf1b634@ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <41916DA1-63A5-487E-A3BD-725B2E95BA1E@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <41916DA1-63A5-487E-A3BD-725B2E95BA1E@vpnc.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.43.71] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "curdle@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 15:44:37 -0000 > Historically, the CFRG, as an RG, does lots of work that is not yet meant= for > IETF adoption. The IETF gets to pick which of the outputs are appropriate= for > its protocols and operational guidance. Except that in this case, they were responding to TLS-WG requests. I believe many folks want purely-open curves at 25519 and 448 strengths. A= nd if there are those that don't, they don't need to use the docs we prepar= e here. -- =20 Senior Architect, Akamai Technologies IM: richsalz@jabber.at Twitter: RichSalz From nobody Sat Feb 20 08:14:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84FEB1A21C1 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:14:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.347 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.347 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kvS87Qqju64y for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:14:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B649E1A219E for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:14:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.114.1] (50-1-98-216.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.98.216]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id u1KGEfxA092473 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:14:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-98-216.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.98.216] claimed to be [192.168.114.1] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: "Salz, Rich" Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:14:41 -0800 Message-ID: <0D2F00CE-E337-4061-AE82-013B0E43A271@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> <7a5d240a791940b7864b1d666bf1b634@ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <41916DA1-63A5-487E-A3BD-725B2E95BA1E@vpnc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.3r5187) Archived-At: Cc: "curdle@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:14:44 -0000 On 20 Feb 2016, at 7:44, Salz, Rich wrote: >> Historically, the CFRG, as an RG, does lots of work that is not yet >> meant for >> IETF adoption. The IETF gets to pick which of the outputs are >> appropriate for >> its protocols and operational guidance. > > Except that in this case, they were responding to TLS-WG requests. If the TLS WG still wants 448, great: this WG can adopt that. That doesn't affect a bunch of the other drafts, right? > I believe many folks want purely-open curves at 25519 and 448 > strengths. And if there are those that don't, they don't need to use > the docs we prepare here. Some folks believe that unneeded algorithm proliferation has had a negative effect on security operations. (Some people would claim that the TLS WG is a poster child for this problem...) The "D" in our WG name is there for a good reason. So, it's not a question of "just don't use it" if it is being promoted by the IETF. Having said that, if CURDLE wants to standardize everything in the list, we'll all live with the user and operator confusion, just as we have before. It is still worth pointing out that starting with assumptions about curve strength that originate from a use case that essentially none of us have should affect our choices in what we adopt. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Sat Feb 20 08:39:36 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C08AD1A882B for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:39:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.007 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.007 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.006, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ec1jZDhi22Bn for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:39:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from skroderider.denisbider.com (skroderider.denisbider.com [50.18.172.175]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C4731A87C6 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:39:32 -0800 (PST) X-Footer: ZGVuaXNiaWRlci5jb20= Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by skroderider.denisbider.com for phill@hallambaker.com; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:39:29 +0000 Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:39:29 +0000 X-User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:44.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/44.0 Message-ID: <822372499-3464@skroderider.denisbider.com> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 From: denis bider To: Phillip Hallam-Baker , Watson Ladd Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-UsvBUKOh9cr6yrK91ace" Archived-At: Cc: Daniel Migault , curdle@ietf.org, Paul Hoffman , "Mark D. Baushke" Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:39:34 -0000 --=-UsvBUKOh9cr6yrK91ace Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Phillip: > We want it to be possible for NIST to adopt CFRG curves > in place of their 15 year old curves. +1. I am in favor of curve448-sha512 (rather than -sha256) for this reason. We have no way to compel NIST to cooperate. However, I would prefer to create circumstances where NIST can adopt IETF work, especially when the opportunity is this easy. Everyone wins if they do. Non-cooperation is generally counter-productive. The flexibility required to allow for cooperation in this case seems minor. Watson: > What about encryption? You lose all confidentiality even > for old messages. There is no reason to use Curve448 in > authentication. The use of Curve25519 and Curve448 in SSH is for encryption. It's used for key exchange, not authentication. > includes unnecessary flexibility. The cost of flexibility in SSH has already been paid in its design. The cost of supporting an additional algorithm is highly reduced. If we standardize curve448-sha512, this could become a single key exchange method adopted both by NIST-oriented and non-NIST-oriented users. If we do not, we guarantee a fork where ecdh-nistp384 will be required by NIST-oriented users, and curve25519-sha256 will be preferred by others. Paul: > If a small number of national security agencies want stronger > than 128-bit security, they can do their own standardization. IETF is a standards body. The US is the world's largest economy, and NIST sets standards for a large proportion of it. A standards body cannot be ignorant as to the needs of a large proportion of its users. The sentiment you express is purposeful non-cooperation, out of principle rather than practicality. Such sentiments are a disservice to implementors and users, who need standards for the real world. It seems to me this type of a sentiment does not belong in a standards body. denis --=-UsvBUKOh9cr6yrK91ace Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Phillip:

> We want it to be possible for= NIST to adopt CFRG curves
> in place of their 15 year old curves.
+1.

I am in favor of curve448-sha512 (rather than -sha256) for = this reason.

We have no way to compel NIST to cooperate. However, I = would prefer to create circumstances where NIST can adopt IETF work, especi= ally when the opportunity is this easy. Everyone wins if they do.

No= n-cooperation is generally counter-productive. The flexibility required to = allow for cooperation in this case seems minor.


Watson:

&= gt; What about encryption? You lose all confidentiality even
> for ol= d messages. There is no reason to use Curve448 in
> authentication.
The use of Curve25519 and Curve448 in SSH is for encryption. It's use= d for key exchange, not authentication.


> includes unnecessar= y flexibility.

The cost of flexibility in SSH has already been paid = in its design. The cost of supporting an additional algorithm is highly red= uced.

If we standardize curve448-sha512, this could become a single = key exchange method adopted both by NIST-oriented and non-NIST-oriented use= rs. If we do not, we guarantee a fork where ecdh-nistp384 will be required = by NIST-oriented users, and curve25519-sha256 will be preferred by others.<= br>

Paul:

> If a small number of national security agencie= s want stronger
> than 128-bit security, they can do their own standa= rdization.

IETF is a standards body. The US is the world's largest e= conomy, and NIST sets standards for a large proportion of it.

A stan= dards body cannot be ignorant as to the needs of a large proportion of its = users. The sentiment you express is purposeful non-cooperation, out of prin= ciple rather than practicality. Such sentiments are a disservice to impleme= ntors and users, who need standards for the real world.

It seems to = me this type of a sentiment does not belong in a standards body.

denis

= --=-UsvBUKOh9cr6yrK91ace-- From nobody Sat Feb 20 08:40:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 960461A88C7 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:39:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iJ-frnbibGVd for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:39:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-x232.google.com (mail-lb0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEB0D1A8863 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:39:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lb0-x232.google.com with SMTP id of3so62516813lbc.1 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:39:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=571Id8BReUQ6pJCHu7sqQ6Bg0n9q3O4cRxifJEJ0kI8=; b=LuOiwXyChtGTTc6VBf42FW+RiqPXZk+3L/WJALm6O4mwrksTpgsH22a89hF3IzUPF9 3mzGCxAPtV0JoXHazI1xferBMqL5yDyFWpo8UBx4G8CPfQpmdYoqOd4wZyUYeK1lsS0d 5O1a1vLcMAf+8zPCqErDFyPTKiWj6LLRQGtxzItRDuFj6HC8VTz3tLKQRVHD7UYuiKyO 9Gep/kPgkJCjWGSqX6jQZSGifyssmWec5bYB3KLKk9HhkQBT5L5JUHKKldner+EicDXy IZwZYit59+5ON0uVMK78KNVTya5kSZ8kzHevA5O5I/fqxnw1tR3ha73ojgDx94W1conj +Q3A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=571Id8BReUQ6pJCHu7sqQ6Bg0n9q3O4cRxifJEJ0kI8=; b=KF244TmviTuQvdpleQLD5nU/OfkMg66gQOoObXyhYThT7+wx5jVJvxmM51MzIYeoOc gFVjMiFb/HTs6x3F6U1hwvul8x6Tk50iuezwgX66DYVNNyuHaQ437s98hShqhOx2RYze S0RP9bwfwN8NyBZmq3pkOBXbGIkBtbcI8uu30VpcxyOTSQhzSLTB/At5NziuMp/9JZIK 7uEiOtWn0vvzppjox/Vd4K2K6bCFCbvw7jCXA7Ioh4O6pq4wWUJJz7GzUnsoO8XeBwEg 8tiMfcuKexhNQhglwLckh476AipqXFhkdZTQ6+rQKXO97ytnKhRERQvOvwpiykmZZ+0L Pefg== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOTKqmBHHJwdyjwWmkoTXQreGX/GQpteFr9LI4E/9wFYVvqJnLdAyCrfXMvkP/40BJTRx+YmwGGB5ADjWg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.30.144 with SMTP id s16mr7347006lbh.112.1455986395900; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:39:55 -0800 (PST) Sender: hallam@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.49.80 with HTTP; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:39:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <41916DA1-63A5-487E-A3BD-725B2E95BA1E@vpnc.org> References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> <7a5d240a791940b7864b1d666bf1b634@ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <41916DA1-63A5-487E-A3BD-725B2E95BA1E@vpnc.org> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 11:39:55 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: UnC8tNZvrPgMaUlK8RWjkjUr-ac Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "curdle@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:39:59 -0000 There is definitely industry demand for 448. If we had been satisfied 25519 is enough we would have done it. We want a safety margin and so do our customers. In this case I am mystified as to why an individual who does not sell crypto to anyone would be so intent on watering down the security those of us who do can offer. While I do not trust the NSA on every issue, one thing I am willing to trust them on is the notion of what is a sufficient work factor. Or at least, I will take their recommendation as a minimum. On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > On 20 Feb 2016, at 6:24, Salz, Rich wrote: > >> Speaking as chair, Phil's right: 448 is in the charter. >> Speaking as an individual: it would feel wrong for us not to pick up the >> CFRG work. > > > Historically, the CFRG, as an RG, does lots of work that is not yet meant > for IETF adoption. The IETF gets to pick which of the outputs are > appropriate for its protocols and operational guidance. > > The fact that 448 is in the charter is irrelevant to the question of > adoption. Lots of WGs take a wide charter and work on a narrower subset > based on discussion about the actual value of the bits in the charter. > > To date, no one has given any reason to need a signature mechanism with more > than 255 bits of effective strength. People here, and in the CFRG, have > expressed concern that a proliferation of signature mechanisms has a > negative operational impact. > > > --Paul Hoffman > > _______________________________________________ > Curdle mailing list > Curdle@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/curdle From nobody Sat Feb 20 08:43:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33AFF1A8958 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:43:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gUqSZyQdFElu for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:43:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw0-x22f.google.com (mail-yw0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 908BA1A8A0D for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:43:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id h129so89996598ywb.1 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:43:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=pEN4aklmvZ2/thJyW3H47Gdo2EBsu7VgT4jADUWT5f8=; b=rznA0FFh8HG5A9LM+7PbxQO+Ai6JRM1l9xZMRisOgmmCz8ibTo3jYnTdCxQwd5HXQg qN/FVu8MPCHc41giYQsrv0q8h487641Nm99odQ1C0z2KbTOi/Ketlc/5ZkorQUdj3+VV 8ojG7z5gaGdBI330Iz3P6+/l7dCJpDdz+3c9SwWom+1ULpgAfODg9zljhD3qrZxb/zGg k68JV4B9Q8gWpfAHtR6pdUa6JTgnntYxWi2AU5xhvEY78Mo3FSGUXc2ggYi3FamJPtkx e+weUvgMLFRRyHjV+sXVzyklig2rrW5xi9lbqtfaG1K85/tnWgB+XtkRbFAIO/UieJhx CNMQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=pEN4aklmvZ2/thJyW3H47Gdo2EBsu7VgT4jADUWT5f8=; b=fZoqKs6nJM5pdEbO/9ubAa9pt5lLbMCkxQyg9JW4p6FgIDeLgoGMA/u/KDIMcCKt+9 g+7aV+wGgWsM/AD5DJtRxO9NaJYbZUh1JbC1bjZcAPprDoylrozHumZJn8RQDtiju+lj +N2j/22TaomcyD5BMDocMLEgKnazbTsF1/9qYoohoxFlnclunjuAgd87Vu43MKdIgbSK 6HRY2nYj5Ty2SZHqOPaXRXu0lmpk8NeJTq0np+xdnfRXJP1kZ+zFhG5p5I/4omM9WjoW Lq4fuqYAFQYu207h/XBkgXU8vaVDwQjZv9xG4HzjsDeewFQLnFLaFiCyokqnltGcALuJ rYdg== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOS21/llXuryMNTS5ve0DJ29csZzMXl++Nw7LqgN/KFzLUybyBkgAkLIuGnMKPH2UM4GdzZHLzB617F7Ww== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.129.49.146 with SMTP id x140mr2919098ywx.244.1455986584829; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:43:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.13.216.138 with HTTP; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:43:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <822372499-3464@skroderider.denisbider.com> References: <822372499-3464@skroderider.denisbider.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:43:04 -0800 Message-ID: From: Watson Ladd To: denis bider Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Daniel Migault , Phillip Hallam-Baker , Curdle , Paul Hoffman , "Mark D. Baushke" Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:43:08 -0000 On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 8:39 AM, denis bider wrote: > Phillip: > >> We want it to be possible for NIST to adopt CFRG curves >> in place of their 15 year old curves. > > +1. > > I am in favor of curve448-sha512 (rather than -sha256) for this reason. > > We have no way to compel NIST to cooperate. However, I would prefer to > create circumstances where NIST can adopt IETF work, especially when the > opportunity is this easy. Everyone wins if they do. > > Non-cooperation is generally counter-productive. The flexibility required to > allow for cooperation in this case seems minor. > > > Watson: > >> What about encryption? You lose all confidentiality even >> for old messages. There is no reason to use Curve448 in >> authentication. > > The use of Curve25519 and Curve448 in SSH is for encryption. It's used for > key exchange, not authentication. Look at the list of drafts again. It includes DNSSEC, where the cost of multiple options is petty high. Using Curve448 and Ed448 in SSH doesn't create the same issues. > > >> includes unnecessary flexibility. > > The cost of flexibility in SSH has already been paid in its design. The cost > of supporting an additional algorithm is highly reduced. > > If we standardize curve448-sha512, this could become a single key exchange > method adopted both by NIST-oriented and non-NIST-oriented users. If we do > not, we guarantee a fork where ecdh-nistp384 will be required by > NIST-oriented users, and curve25519-sha256 will be preferred by others. > > > Paul: > >> If a small number of national security agencies want stronger >> than 128-bit security, they can do their own standardization. > > IETF is a standards body. The US is the world's largest economy, and NIST > sets standards for a large proportion of it. > > A standards body cannot be ignorant as to the needs of a large proportion of > its users. The sentiment you express is purposeful non-cooperation, out of > principle rather than practicality. Such sentiments are a disservice to > implementors and users, who need standards for the real world. > > It seems to me this type of a sentiment does not belong in a standards body. > > > denis > -- "Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains". --Rousseau. From nobody Sat Feb 20 08:50:05 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 028D71A8AFD for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:50:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.006, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RfqGkK3iqhNX for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:50:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from skroderider.denisbider.com (skroderider.denisbider.com [50.18.172.175]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3E9C1A8864 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:50:01 -0800 (PST) X-Footer: ZGVuaXNiaWRlci5jb20= Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by skroderider.denisbider.com for watsonbladd@gmail.com; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:49:59 +0000 Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:49:59 +0000 X-User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:44.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/44.0 Message-ID: <824076389-2856@skroderider.denisbider.com> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 From: denis bider To: Watson Ladd Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-475GoqU3BOUERvgOr4eL" Archived-At: Cc: Daniel Migault , Phillip Hallam-Baker , Curdle , "Mark D. Baushke" , Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:50:04 -0000 --=-475GoqU3BOUERvgOr4eL Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" DNSSEC is not my area of expertise, so I have no opinion about the use of Curve448 there. I support curve448-sha512 for SSH, to increase the likelihood - though not a guarantee - that in a few years, we might have a single, common, strong key exchange method that everyone can agree on. Watson Ladd , 2/20/2016 4:43 PM: On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 8:39 AM, denis bider wrote: > Phillip: > >> We want it to be possible for NIST to adopt CFRG curves >> in place of their 15 year old curves. > > +1. > > I am in favor of curve448-sha512 (rather than -sha256) for this reason. > > We have no way to compel NIST to cooperate. However, I would prefer to > create circumstances where NIST can adopt IETF work, especially when the > opportunity is this easy. Everyone wins if they do. > > Non-cooperation is generally counter-productive. The flexibility required to > allow for cooperation in this case seems minor. > > > Watson: > >> What about encryption? You lose all confidentiality even >> for old messages. There is no reason to use Curve448 in >> authentication. > > The use of Curve25519 and Curve448 in SSH is for encryption. It's used for > key exchange, not authentication. Look at the list of drafts again. It includes DNSSEC, where the cost of multiple options is petty high. Using Curve448 and Ed448 in SSH doesn't create the same issues. > > >> includes unnecessary flexibility. > > The cost of flexibility in SSH has already been paid in its design. The cost > of supporting an additional algorithm is highly reduced. > > If we standardize curve448-sha512, this could become a single key exchange > method adopted both by NIST-oriented and non-NIST-oriented users. If we do > not, we guarantee a fork where ecdh-nistp384 will be required by > NIST-oriented users, and curve25519-sha256 will be preferred by others. > > > Paul: > >> If a small number of national security agencies want stronger >> than 128-bit security, they can do their own standardization. > > IETF is a standards body. The US is the world's largest economy, and NIST > sets standards for a large proportion of it. > > A standards body cannot be ignorant as to the needs of a large proportion of > its users. The sentiment you express is purposeful non-cooperation, out of > principle rather than practicality. Such sentiments are a disservice to > implementors and users, who need standards for the real world. > > It seems to me this type of a sentiment does not belong in a standards body. > > > denis > -- "Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains". --Rousseau. _______________________________________________ Curdle mailing list Curdle@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/curdle --=-475GoqU3BOUERvgOr4eL Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" DNSSEC is not my area of expertise, so I have no opinion about the use of Curve448 there.

I support curve448-sha512 for SSH, to increase the likelihood - though not a guarantee - that in a few years, we might have a single, common, strong key exchange method that everyone can agree on.


Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> , 2/20/2016 4:43 PM:
On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 8:39 AM, denis bider <ietf-ssh3@denisbider.com> wrote:
> Phillip:
>
>> We want it to be possible for NIST to adopt CFRG curves
>> in place of their 15 year old curves.
>
> +1.
>
> I am in favor of curve448-sha512 (rather than -sha256) for this reason.
>
> We have no way to compel NIST to cooperate. However, I would prefer to
> create circumstances where NIST can adopt IETF work, especially when the
> opportunity is this easy. Everyone wins if they do.
>
> Non-cooperation is generally counter-productive. The flexibility required to
> allow for cooperation in this case seems minor.
>
>
> Watson:
>
>> What about encryption? You lose all confidentiality even
>> for old messages. There is no reason to use Curve448 in
>> authentication.
>
> The use of Curve25519 and Curve448 in SSH is for encryption. It's used for
> key exchange, not authentication.

Look at the list of drafts again. It includes DNSSEC, where the cost
of multiple options is petty high. Using Curve448 and Ed448 in SSH
doesn't create the same issues.

>
>
>> includes unnecessary flexibility.
>
> The cost of flexibility in SSH has already been paid in its design. The cost
> of supporting an additional algorithm is highly reduced.
>
> If we standardize curve448-sha512, this could become a single key exchange
> method adopted both by NIST-oriented and non-NIST-oriented users. If we do
> not, we guarantee a fork where ecdh-nistp384 will be required by
> NIST-oriented users, and curve25519-sha256 will be preferred by others.
>
>
> Paul:
>
>> If a small number of national security agencies want stronger
>> than 128-bit security, they can do their own standardization.
>
> IETF is a standards body. The US is the world's largest economy, and NIST
> sets standards for a large proportion of it.
>
> A standards body cannot be ignorant as to the needs of a large proportion of
> its users. The sentiment you express is purposeful non-cooperation, out of
> principle rather than practicality. Such sentiments are a disservice to
> implementors and users, who need standards for the real world.
>
> It seems to me this type of a sentiment does not belong in a standards body.
>
>
> denis
>



--
"Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains".
--Rousseau.

_______________________________________________
Curdle mailing list
Curdle@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/curdle
--=-475GoqU3BOUERvgOr4eL-- From nobody Sat Feb 20 08:53:28 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 588B91A8855 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:53:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sp4YI59jhGaJ for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:53:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw0-x22d.google.com (mail-yw0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E25D1A6F07 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:53:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id h129so90110377ywb.1 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:53:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=VzAAkB6ZXh1zoD4rNC2uzSl/lWP9alnDPZxjf4ptCBo=; b=dyavydU6jUUboP1iLAwhXd61GCIxXE2CrDE/gaFqODqT8VFScyaWsc/RM+cAIWGmtB KMzkWQ1Fd4o1JK3ehNyx+7JDu+wen93ic6et9EI+3W7HH5W3jmtjKlFncOFco3JAjeq5 TpsLk3Y5vZsZjWlnmf6HR9WMCbNq60JzDJ8x7XSpYeJqBc9MIqDBiI8WUnxujNe6kKZs jr9+nC2OIBfmtDPzo0lXkJ3w7OSdbqIug3M2RAF+npvCHpqTOFFHIkUcYDt5m3uCWMrm BzsDcLhkcezUYQYkv1c6E2fYyqjtoqUEu62rPf4RKDr/J/jR6a7meBlOxQDY6Crbvs1x Z/9A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=VzAAkB6ZXh1zoD4rNC2uzSl/lWP9alnDPZxjf4ptCBo=; b=YhUzrfnQrzxGuyGbQTrZuABcsKv70hL3bQC7IgQ7wOvknsEfOta3XlzyfWCBTWtRHn 76obDAT0uy0Qng6cJbVxraMDfGQ/MwSpZJM9E55d1NaV+QuEEQlZVwCP6jPVZiRVs9EZ YaqO+xg2AGbIbi9+LToNaUoFh/kYjfMWNqmm6tvZW60Mh9rQUHZJALeBx6qZ2sI/HJcP aQRoHSUsLuLZag6wRnMT+wP8jOXeeC3ru55b8Pfy+ggo9vLEIn82dCz7uKtYo2KtznJs DhuBY3hDsvdQEg4hga2EZUSP6uptH7LWMOtQNZC+qKy0R/TOFtRhpMBu9ijGsicH/0dP HcMw== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOSE1BpjW/e1zqpeFCNHv1DE7zBNxzof6aZ3UKj7l9CNv4W56/PPLirRviGuduWjcYM6wT7BYn8J9ypWpw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.13.226.86 with SMTP id l83mr10849707ywe.239.1455987204918; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:53:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.13.216.138 with HTTP; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:53:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> <7a5d240a791940b7864b1d666bf1b634@ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <41916DA1-63A5-487E-A3BD-725B2E95BA1E@vpnc.org> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:53:24 -0800 Message-ID: From: Watson Ladd To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "curdle@ietf.org" , Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:53:27 -0000 Am I actually reducing the security of what your customers have? No. As I've repeatedly said and you've seemed to ignore authentication and encryption have different properties. In the web context online signatures need to be done with end-entity certs once per connection, frequently. Therefore end-entity certs use P256 or maybe will end up with 25519. It's much faster if the entire chain uses the same algorithm, but because of this blather about "maximal security for important keys" (ignoring the fact that authentication doesn't need to last for longer than key lifetimes, while encryption does) we have a much slower verification. This directly impacts crypto adoption. On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 8:39 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > There is definitely industry demand for 448. If we had been satisfied > 25519 is enough we would have done it. > > We want a safety margin and so do our customers. > > In this case I am mystified as to why an individual who does not sell > crypto to anyone would be so intent on watering down the security > those of us who do can offer. > > While I do not trust the NSA on every issue, one thing I am willing to > trust them on is the notion of what is a sufficient work factor. Or at > least, I will take their recommendation as a minimum. > > > > > On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote: >> On 20 Feb 2016, at 6:24, Salz, Rich wrote: >> >>> Speaking as chair, Phil's right: 448 is in the charter. >>> Speaking as an individual: it would feel wrong for us not to pick up the >>> CFRG work. >> >> >> Historically, the CFRG, as an RG, does lots of work that is not yet meant >> for IETF adoption. The IETF gets to pick which of the outputs are >> appropriate for its protocols and operational guidance. >> >> The fact that 448 is in the charter is irrelevant to the question of >> adoption. Lots of WGs take a wide charter and work on a narrower subset >> based on discussion about the actual value of the bits in the charter. >> >> To date, no one has given any reason to need a signature mechanism with more >> than 255 bits of effective strength. People here, and in the CFRG, have >> expressed concern that a proliferation of signature mechanisms has a >> negative operational impact. >> >> >> --Paul Hoffman >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Curdle mailing list >> Curdle@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/curdle > > _______________________________________________ > Curdle mailing list > Curdle@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/curdle -- "Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains". --Rousseau. From nobody Sat Feb 20 09:02:03 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3F861A00C0 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:02:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.347 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.347 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DykJlKpMb57B for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:02:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22BD11A87C5 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:02:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.32.60.51] (50-1-98-216.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.98.216]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id u1KH1vjf093655 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:01:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-98-216.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.98.216] claimed to be [10.32.60.51] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: "Phillip Hallam-Baker" Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:01:57 -0800 Message-ID: <92D7F1B1-EA0C-4FC8-A343-D21389322DC1@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> <7a5d240a791940b7864b1d666bf1b634@ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <41916DA1-63A5-487E-A3BD-725B2E95BA1E@vpnc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.3r5187) Archived-At: Cc: "curdle@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 17:02:02 -0000 On 20 Feb 2016, at 8:39, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > There is definitely industry demand for 448. If we had been satisfied > 25519 is enough we would have done it. If you can show where that industry demand is, that would be great. So far, I only see the interest from individuals. > We want a safety margin and so do our customers. Of course: that's why a work effort of 128 was chosen instead of 96. > In this case I am mystified as to why an individual who does not sell > crypto to anyone would be so intent on watering down the security > those of us who do can offer. I "sell" crypto as much as, or more than, you do, Phill. We both also sell operational stability. Having fewer needless choices is the reason for my suggestion to the WG. I assume from your personal attack above that you are indicating that you somehow represent the PKI industry. Even if that's the case, note that PKI is not used in all the proposals before this WG. (If you don't actually represent the PKI industry, this WG would be well-served if you were to bring to it a recommendation from a group that does.) > While I do not trust the NSA on every issue, one thing I am willing to > trust them on is the notion of what is a sufficient work factor. Or at > least, I will take their recommendation as a minimum. Great: their recommendation is 128 bits even for secret material that has could lead to widespread death and destruction. Their recommendation for 192 work factor is for top secret, something that only people who work for governments who don't care about IETF standards care about. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Sat Feb 20 09:11:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E8F21A87AF for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:11:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3zsMmnr9DkQ1 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:10:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0134.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04A341A87A7 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:10:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from BY1PR0501CA0029.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.162.139.39) by BY1PR0501MB1608.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.160.203.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.409.15; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 17:10:53 +0000 Received: from BL2FFO11FD010.protection.gbl (2a01:111:f400:7c09::133) by BY1PR0501CA0029.outlook.office365.com (2a01:111:e400:4821::39) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.409.15 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 17:10:53 +0000 Authentication-Results: spf=softfail (sender IP is 66.129.239.18) smtp.mailfrom=juniper.net; hallambaker.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;hallambaker.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=juniper.net; Received-SPF: SoftFail (protection.outlook.com: domain of transitioning juniper.net discourages use of 66.129.239.18 as permitted sender) Received: from p-emfe01a-sac.jnpr.net (66.129.239.18) by BL2FFO11FD010.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.173.161.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.415.6 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 17:10:51 +0000 Received: from magenta.juniper.net (172.17.27.123) by p-emfe01a-sac.jnpr.net (172.24.192.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:10:44 -0800 Received: from eng-mail01.juniper.net (eng-mail01.juniper.net [172.17.28.114]) by magenta.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id u1KHAhD57822; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:10:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mdb@juniper.net) Received: from eng-mail01.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eng-mail01.juniper.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0D991141B; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:10:42 -0800 (PST) To: Phillip Hallam-Baker In-Reply-To: References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> <16708.1455927459@eng-mail01.juniper.net> Comments: In-reply-to: Phillip Hallam-Baker message dated "Fri, 19 Feb 2016 20:47:54 -0500." 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 17:11:00 -0000 Phillip Hallam-Baker writes: > On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 7:17 PM, Mark D. Baushke wrote: > > I have no problems with any of the drafts. > > > > There is an open question if there is a need for curve448 > > to use SHA2-512 rather than SHA2-256. > > Doesn't the curve448 draft require SHA2-512? I am directing my comments to draft-josefsson-ssh-curves-03 IANA is requested to add "curve25519-sha256" and "curve448-sha256" to the "Key Exchange Method Names" registry for SSH that was created in RFC 4250 section 4.10 [RFC4250]. The name curve448-sha256 may be the confusion here. RFC5656 chapter 4 is referenced as to the structure of the exchange hash and that references RFC5656 section 10 which does specify SHA-256. Perhaps clarification of the draft-josefsson-ssh-curves-03 as to the hash expected to be used by naming curve448 to include sha512 in the name would cause less confusion? > It is always possible to insert another hash, but isn't the signature > function specified over an input consisting of an arbitrary length bit > string rather than over the output of a hash function? I-D.irtf-cfrg-curves and RFC5656 are both used as Normative References. -- Mark From nobody Sat Feb 20 09:12:35 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C633A1A89B0 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:12:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p1UdE9Oe7oYo for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:12:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf0-x233.google.com (mail-lf0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62BDC1A89B8 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:12:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf0-x233.google.com with SMTP id 78so71621584lfy.3 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:12:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=8cedWHSE/a9mUZbvc48yBDyS6rcAF6r3wq+Es6bUOHw=; b=z7/Cabxu3ilnrFDjLFJbFUWbfZB1sp/c2xRF5BRHTA60ou36GJsnEB+29CvPnQiplC zWes/49piSmLQawqxWKBRYnm/h2yhedzY3aydxhhgkz2FsUYqF+ZJRP4TzqVeOAS7hjc MS6tmPxGVMRVCYKPRFiXDDh2F8DAWl3LhxI3mTxrYvBl6rRdavmfW8MKcKsUCzkBbBz6 X0MGBRNUVnxd+Cehxt3YRNV/PyiwTAXJK38nlsaJrtLB/XvJLuAXo5A+iJ3SdB8GXYeA eAnJ8TCs9zx5F9yomaowAhmT9C4TkNo9SlmGEQbeU9WJwepX3PdENWUvG9Y6BKi77xNP nwRw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=8cedWHSE/a9mUZbvc48yBDyS6rcAF6r3wq+Es6bUOHw=; b=WG+qqleb4NhiXWgYQV6ceCy/GmUF7mB7WM/Scl9uLnrDV58GxFrj1xmC2I7mxifwgE SeH7X6Hg+fpkKdmS/5+b4l1cH+51awmKCEijPF6Uc48rjco7zWzsFM3Z3A7jCgT76P+E vpMZNpSLNL2agnVNyt1dwRdTILm2ratophtARLVF/SlOKW46NUXW1D9u1/4p8HZ6L4Cq iAGNN4+yi6UKeh/8fWSAEKWn3sI0BSRSM3PqqQRT1mgsivXTvtzs1T+NroBdVvK17WJq E6mYRanfzPcz6lArJEdroORsufBOZoupgKu6FeR/EWTkWxLc0++PQwkqEX7twVFHrH27 HnSQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YORCP6Bm/MsEoEckuVPIX/XHjaKEVTAT2kib0pGDwP25IAHHEhs0ZdD2t8wvYs0xnuwq0AmhqP2/kZyZHg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.25.90.3 with SMTP id o3mr5545086lfb.166.1455988350465; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:12:30 -0800 (PST) Sender: hallam@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.49.80 with HTTP; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:12:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> <7a5d240a791940b7864b1d666bf1b634@ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <41916DA1-63A5-487E-A3BD-725B2E95BA1E@vpnc.org> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 12:12:30 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0-H6xomJTa22aXqa2QHw1MHlKnk Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: Watson Ladd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "curdle@ietf.org" , Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 17:12:34 -0000 On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 11:53 AM, Watson Ladd wrote: > Am I actually reducing the security of what your customers have? No. Yes, they are already using Curve 384. End of story. And what is more, they are exceptionally nervous about any suggestion that specifications are being watered down at the request of the NSA BULLRUN agents. And they are quite right to. > As I've repeatedly said and you've seemed to ignore authentication and > encryption have different properties. Yes, to first order, authentication matters and encryption does not. The WebPKI is an authentication infrastructure, that is what it was designed to be. If you have a root key worth an eight figure sum, you would want it to have a work factor that gives a sufficient margin in case of a weakness in the algorithm. The most likely form of significant attack being a meet in the middle type attack that reduces the work factor to the square root of the original. > In the web context online > signatures need to be done with end-entity certs once per connection, > frequently. Therefore end-entity certs use P256 or maybe will end up > with 25519. Perhaps you should look at what is actually being sold today. From nobody Sat Feb 20 09:16:47 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D4911A9124 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:16:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.347 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.347 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5mEO-fbW9el9 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:16:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A38A21A8747 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:16:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.32.60.51] (50-1-98-216.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.98.216]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id u1KHGirP093877 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:16:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-98-216.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.98.216] claimed to be [10.32.60.51] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: "curdle@ietf.org" Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:16:44 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.3r5187) Archived-At: Subject: [Curdle] Multiple choices and authentication-only X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 17:16:46 -0000 Some of the drafts proposed here are for algorithms that are only for authentication. If we have two options for those, "strong" and "stronger", essentially no one will choose "strong" because they would look "weak" doing so even if the authentication they need is completely satisfied by "strong". So we are in essence telling people "to look secure, you should always use 'stronger'". Fortunately, for EC, the message size and signing/verifying time is not a big issue, particularly because in most protocols these will (still!) be replacing RSA authentication. However, having two sizes means more operational complexity because each signer needs to decide (without enough guidance) which size to use. If you truly believe that 128 bit work factor is not sufficient for a particular IETF protocol, it would be good for this WG to hear why. "Because the NSA uses it for 'top secret' which most of us don't even know the definition of" isn't sufficient for me, but it might be for others. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Sat Feb 20 09:28:31 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD92A1A8978 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:28:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.006, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BNgEIEiRCo1L for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:28:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from skroderider.denisbider.com (skroderider.denisbider.com [50.18.172.175]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FC831A8A78 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:28:29 -0800 (PST) X-Footer: ZGVuaXNiaWRlci5jb20= Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by skroderider.denisbider.com for paul.hoffman@vpnc.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 17:28:26 +0000 Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 17:28:26 +0000 X-User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:44.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/44.0 Message-ID: <826406794-3320@skroderider.denisbider.com> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 From: denis bider To: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-xN/XwwTgzYMFF+tunGYf" Archived-At: Cc: curdle@ietf.org, Phillip Hallam-Baker Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 17:28:30 -0000 --=-xN/XwwTgzYMFF+tunGYf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Paul Hoffman: > Great: their recommendation is 128 bits even for secret material > that has could lead to widespread death and destruction. Their > recommendation for 192 work factor is for top secret, > something that only people who work for governments > who don't care about IETF standards care about. As far as I can tell, this is not true. The new recommendations are for ALL classified material up to top secret; NOT starting from top secret. It is an expressed goal of the recommendations to have a single set of standards for all levels of classified material up to top secret. (For even higher levels, I believe they use non-public algorithms.) denis --=-xN/XwwTgzYMFF+tunGYf Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Paul Hoffman:

> Great: their recommendation is 128 bits even for secret material
> that has could lead to widespread death and destruction. Their
> recommendation for 192 work factor is for top secret,
> something that only people who work for governments
> who don't care about IETF standards care about.

As far as I can tell, this is not true. The new recommendations are for ALL classified material up to top secret; NOT starting from top secret.

It is an expressed goal of the recommendations to have a single set of standards for all levels of classified material up to top secret.

(For even higher levels, I believe they use non-public algorithms.)

denis

--=-xN/XwwTgzYMFF+tunGYf-- From nobody Sat Feb 20 09:44:10 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EF401AC3F3 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:44:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nlBgIuj8H3HS for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:44:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-x22d.google.com (mail-lb0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D73F1AC40C for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:44:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lb0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id bc4so62977199lbc.2 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:44:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=eLGyhZAJ8A0vIl88gzIwaHNRNnu+WTb3S4mPV2/JZeI=; b=0cRPaBgsNvz+ahVmAcwGpy2EkiyndOKHAawWxRE07qjHrDx3sRWEILnG3eT7N9nT85 HQsinXdqOsupSX2OEQFBBdqWa8aDNfnc9M7WWv6HXVGH6UbcME/ey1A+DE0Z3f0amynq 4OafH/+cbmhCqZArqItpHMOg5Tm+QEYrpvEpTM5VL2vPd8+KOFapZHCuln235YBgKOGU KiZSNQ3007ekaW7Gsh6g9OtRb1Z84/zCuwUxsvz5Ltpj3NtvxjLcLUBEaaNN92kx2gAL ODaWxguSzfUIbMV3ncP1BLwxw3AYIY/9QWnusStj9u05ThJ/tcjxI2EuQdGOuMKPv60s 6fCQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=eLGyhZAJ8A0vIl88gzIwaHNRNnu+WTb3S4mPV2/JZeI=; b=TJxTeQ84zVyzfoy1ViuWwoTvCzYVrqIUBVvIDW5CRG3I6VjRydEQPN5QWnsUNVsJ8b 5WP6gha9kCbvdhbuXs/2kbIj2hCJZ9iazI+ThengzXV7TTHscfQ5TYW67jIUQHtIaWSH nCC2th+fqQr2diZtCCthN49zv4miICEVr9hcjkuOpA2B1qZpVc9mERctJESFDKXadq3j wEAa5NsfZUxH2TI1xd4cUrbf9JTu5NbCELWOMMbJv7I5er14Rie1iwAtv7TJfO3aQfc2 o6rqnPNJVtwEkgRzZJ4Hfu6bQSCvu+mKUUQ0rv84slzKjFPL9qWuzktL2wqfe0nAMIFG aj+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOS0GtoJ1TFbhmAbi367ofIDONqHXE8gyUI07Owf5hsnZx+VJAq2xl04ijIZEsxRY9F4ZY0ZXgYEy/wqEA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.91.202 with SMTP id cg10mr7413885lbb.142.1455990246277; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:44:06 -0800 (PST) Sender: hallam@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.49.80 with HTTP; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:44:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <826406794-3320@skroderider.denisbider.com> References: <826406794-3320@skroderider.denisbider.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 12:44:06 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: R5XPxeVXeBQ11R3rU5pgRgKaNjU Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: denis bider Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: curdle@ietf.org, Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 17:44:09 -0000 On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 12:28 PM, denis bider wrote: > Paul Hoffman: > >> Great: their recommendation is 128 bits even for secret material >> that has could lead to widespread death and destruction. Their >> recommendation for 192 work factor is for top secret, >> something that only people who work for governments >> who don't care about IETF standards care about. > > As far as I can tell, this is not true. The new recommendations are for ALL > classified material up to top secret; NOT starting from top secret. > > It is an expressed goal of the recommendations to have a single set of > standards for all levels of classified material up to top secret. > > (For even higher levels, I believe they use non-public algorithms.) Since there are about a million people with a Top Secret clearance including foreign nationals and anyone with a Top Secret clearance can read any of that material unless it is further classified, Top Secret isn't very secret at all. The 'good stuff' is all Compartmentalized Sensitive Information (CSI). https://www.nsa.gov/ia/programs/suiteb_cryptography/ The Suite B recommendation was that a 2^256 Work factor was required for 'up to' Top Secret. P384 is considered to be sufficient for Top Secret which suggests that NSA believe that ECDH is actually stronger than the rough 'halve the bit length'. We do too, if people recall, the reason we went for 448 over 521 or 512 was that Curve 448 exceeds the AES256 work factor. From nobody Sat Feb 20 10:23:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 574131AC42C for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:23:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.506 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.506 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.006, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bf8HYliGl1yO for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:23:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from skroderider.denisbider.com (skroderider.denisbider.com [50.18.172.175]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5804F1AC3EE for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:23:05 -0800 (PST) X-Footer: ZGVuaXNiaWRlci5jb20= Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by skroderider.denisbider.com for phill@hallambaker.com; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 18:23:03 +0000 Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 18:23:03 +0000 X-User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:44.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/44.0 Message-ID: <829602443-3464@skroderider.denisbider.com> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 From: denis bider To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-5HKLcN5oF/22Wkd3/LQV" Archived-At: Cc: curdle@ietf.org, Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 18:23:06 -0000 --=-5HKLcN5oF/22Wkd3/LQV Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Phillip: > Since there are about a million people with a Top Secret > clearance including foreign nationals and anyone with a > Top Secret clearance can read any of that material unless > it is further classified, Top Secret isn't very secret at all. As far as I know, access is on a need-to-know basis. Clearance does not imply automatic access. It's a hurdle that has to be cleared, but there is also need-to-know. --=-5HKLcN5oF/22Wkd3/LQV Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Phillip:

> Since there are about a million people with a Top Secret
> clearance including foreign nationals and anyone with a
> Top Secret clearance can read any of that material unless
> it is further classified, Top Secret isn't very secret at all.

As far as I know, access is on a need-to-know basis. Clearance does not imply automatic access. It's a hurdle that has to be cleared, but there is also need-to-know.


--=-5HKLcN5oF/22Wkd3/LQV-- From nobody Sat Feb 20 10:35:28 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CA231ACE89 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:35:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ogkQEti7bMBx for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:35:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x231.google.com (mail-wm0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A5971ACE86 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:35:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x231.google.com with SMTP id g62so119331587wme.1 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:35:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=kZ01DPlRh1l9EHhBmEPcYdMmbZiEj0OFn7cBMiJm/Gw=; b=wPxJW2vFR6wNkqv5b/H3knSn0N2yKUkNuAbgdXjwm7ToBL/Bmz7MDyg+q+84uueYVk aH3c2Qs4a4ToTBCp8CJmh00z6mu74TtY0OEyMVGJ0dBymPxoM0C5pTMBQuv5P7gqkK1E f/a5HHD8eRHfV9sBYsQg8a18AIYW0rfh6e0h9V0sQQ1phw6SXnvjB/5a+uuGvSfsUZQY mfJWDCP4PTh1VuR0uF42GrFWHpi0jZ1Ayzq3jRA299VbP75hGCaMiIRVRhrAUgnVAGZf sQPNHyeqQV2c2pch9f9IcX9/bvhumGMfgYAzWh6N8hS4UwYzb2rZAzXOIX4UC0+GWsA6 PwCQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references :to; bh=kZ01DPlRh1l9EHhBmEPcYdMmbZiEj0OFn7cBMiJm/Gw=; b=gJ6MlMfj7o7scXBCftUKgw8cRdpDm+suN21jy/ViPvbj4Hdt9Z6GY1BN1Ryk9L7dEY E4uj3Sy4IokjjkzgC89dIDiCaqwKziqqdplJJEJDcfTSxiKwbF4dXvTaBM0Y9pSi1yY4 b/12qkY5dN8iAkt83dXE5I3vhRxL6qjt2Zt2589FxBycKk2zuA6LkwW3kf4As0Pl+shg TcAgCG/WYePKB17UJF/8TR4fTMnw2WTbhVDp8EhGcgufKCQncDw+LP+LusSWHZ82gGlV NBuG847YwCCckQImxEEWKNfUvYUzG042b4nKuMaOJGlxsp1YYLRMJLEk+aN/ONlP+y0W P87Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOTMZfgBL6ztwRG/tMVjinGV1nbsGN9gYgTnI7TBFU72lJ61iITtNYcHZC1Ns4eJ9w== X-Received: by 10.194.158.36 with SMTP id wr4mr18795756wjb.134.1455993323812; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:35:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] ([46.120.13.132]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g126sm13063813wmf.16.2016.02.20.10.35.22 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:35:23 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) From: Yoav Nir In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 20:35:19 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Paul Hoffman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) Archived-At: Cc: "curdle@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Curdle] Multiple choices and authentication-only X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 18:35:27 -0000 > On 20 Feb 2016, at 7:16 PM, Paul Hoffman = wrote: >=20 > Some of the drafts proposed here are for algorithms that are only for = authentication. If we have two options for those, "strong" and = "stronger", essentially no one will choose "strong" because they would = look "weak" doing so even if the authentication they need is completely = satisfied by "strong". So we are in essence telling people "to look = secure, you should always use 'stronger=E2=80=99=E2=80=9D. I don=E2=80=99t think this is an inevitable outcome. NIST curves came in = three levels of =E2=80=9Cstrength=E2=80=9D. P-256, P-384, and P-521. = P-256 is use much more than P-384, and P-521 is practically unheard of = (53748:12:1 according to [1]). Before that, RSA came in whatever = bit-length you wanted, and yet until a year ago, 1024-bits was more = popular than 2048 bits, even though pretty much every implementation out = there supported at least 4096 bits. Even now only 4% of web servers use = stronger than 2048-bit RSA. >=20 > Fortunately, for EC, the message size and signing/verifying time is = not a big issue, particularly because in most protocols these will = (still!) be replacing RSA authentication. However, having two sizes = means more operational complexity because each signer needs to decide = (without enough guidance) which size to use. And we can put such advice in the RFC. In any case, this is not some = green field where we can have only one option. Every protocol = implementation will add these curves (or curve) to an implementation = that already has RSA, ECDSA, and possibly DSA. > If you truly believe that 128 bit work factor is not sufficient for a = particular IETF protocol, it would be good for this WG to hear why. = "Because the NSA uses it for 'top secret' which most of us don't even = know the definition of" isn't sufficient for me, but it might be for = others. As far as we know, there is no good reason for it now. Our operational = considerations are very different from those of the NSA. But we=E2=80=99ve= always standardized =E2=80=9Cgoes up to 11=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cridiculou= s speed=E2=80=9D algorithms. 256-bit AES comes to mind.=20 Yoav [1] = https://securitypitfalls.wordpress.com/2015/12/07/november-2015-scan-resul= ts/= From nobody Sat Feb 20 10:39:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E310A1ACE24 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:39:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hd-yg_L2dn_E for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:39:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf0-x236.google.com (mail-lf0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F97C1ACE1A for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:39:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id m1so73102877lfg.0 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:39:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=HyeqMzfI9inj702GQWsKuvpjZNlj8e1+EU5HJSZol+M=; b=jxYOFFKXl5d4Cim0ANkVUUE9Q7GOLxP2botrGqJHOqpZhjBn3DWCZbopUybGay9UJX IKii2mdzCmpP2zK5RUzaMAOcbY/+JvGQsht/KKk+JJr4haYuXc6JPIExmIoB1DcQbonW /U7f/tXhU/AwKqaN3toIsFMsu7Ybztv/s3yu83dNiVjWa+siq5Jn6R0xe4fxJgQW+QAD U2jyZFYEtS3bOsWTvtK2uzU0tigXO3+pwrOqTT/EbkCtDvjV7uLWgysN0iBiYJEwPbqU nU0kCjFz19T8eYkfXJCEaWRlAGHoRiU1JQsCJqGA2Ek3AfJFE69CJh+5/BO8lZR1GrLi TAAQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=HyeqMzfI9inj702GQWsKuvpjZNlj8e1+EU5HJSZol+M=; b=dY17dKuJJIvAxj1zUXHs1V+k8T8EIgKA6wU/N5t18/3aK26lxZY5xqK5s/2kPWcjI9 9IthZoAMbePZb7E7eAJgGLN17zdP65J3zKSnq5zgrMVjgp0ZGqR9M/78si95xdsgNEZs b6JSECCCOdTPE7OyVt1lSVVkFwEJHA+q3jKOrpmpHFCReZM631IS1xsEnCNsKsCo21VB wO4ljXeMK4GM6niGlDTo+F9RKdf9jzaPXRzC+cUrLSbNWksGqL4Qfg+awDPInuzZQyyU 5RJvlklJ7j2wGYAVlpp2Eiop7L3wRn674jyPdoP2dZ+gaxeCrKW9vpbf3oiNF1NoHyNK q0DQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOQkbccS5ZNMZpmTz6XB0k/lvXpjlI1hgclhv5QR455+jZvVKlYFxnYSzGotVFU2JXSTXPEs5FdUiGdsaw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.25.213.196 with SMTP id m187mr7549637lfg.67.1455993540805; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:39:00 -0800 (PST) Sender: hallam@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.49.80 with HTTP; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:39:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <829602443-3464@skroderider.denisbider.com> References: <829602443-3464@skroderider.denisbider.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 13:39:00 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7p0swvmitWQRU9kwbqImj4NvCVk Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: denis bider Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: curdle@ietf.org, Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 18:39:04 -0000 On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 1:23 PM, denis bider wrote: > Phillip: > >> Since there are about a million people with a Top Secret >> clearance including foreign nationals and anyone with a >> Top Secret clearance can read any of that material unless >> it is further classified, Top Secret isn't very secret at all. > > As far as I know, access is on a need-to-know basis. Clearance does not > imply automatic access. It's a hurdle that has to be cleared, but there is > also need-to-know. SCI is the 'need to know' part. It is the compartmentalized intelligence that is the interesting stuff. Right now, the US Federal govt. obviously does not have a good infrastructure for controlling Top Secret material and making it need to know. Otherwise Snowden would not have had access to the crown jewels of the NSA and Manning would not have had access to every SECRET diplomatic cable. There is obviously a gap between aspiration and achievement. I think that we could build such a system however. That is what I am looking to do with the Mathematical Mesh. At present, the Mesh is focused on the problem of making existing crypto applications easy to use. Which it does by simplifying the process of key management. But the architecture is designed with the use of Matt Blaze's proxy re-encryption (recryption) in mind. From nobody Sat Feb 20 10:50:43 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CCFE1ACEAB for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:50:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GgURcAD_-FNF for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:50:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x232.google.com (mail-pa0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D0801ACEA9 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:50:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-x232.google.com with SMTP id yy13so68096118pab.3 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:50:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=POiumuMzqme9K9uhq9eXS6RWFAfpAzf6Evb/b5VEUs4=; b=YDPc+inIZPEChjkO633xJAUzIl5JbKaaUdHv9WEOdZ4x7mwv/49KTW826V5PtNI0zL Gu0JdnLQx1mHlkvMpCXVKA1mNHNkvPUgZHtjMvmft46XPkhjG+2171xG9jFJZiCA496j 6nwXm7GWpuIXW3aRZ5Fk8TdLmFON4ezrN9zsHRgXpvD9cRknNWVpq9MJAhv/HQkpVnLf NL42a70WcMFhnLglsolONSKwyzU3aFQ5XZ0BlZqnwOQv1XhnPgHi3/UGa6s7SFNJ9CBN +YF0ggdTEmKyF7TDJ4zez3DCPAayPZ8MUd3yc5Rz1JmhdBATEge1MVxl07YugMcJwSMO S8Gw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=POiumuMzqme9K9uhq9eXS6RWFAfpAzf6Evb/b5VEUs4=; b=BTx1L194GD8AKTpq8L0C5EleE5SRg5DPmBk3Zqaih31sCzQ4OfwvC4vlMfN7jFgjtz zsIYrH5BPCaG3D1DvhgQyLOBQPohhTpN4Ka2WCwbmRfZwwxWveWyt6pLudttKk+QYB34 Utna5p5H5Jry2cxYAQ/A17smnCFdaplsNoJrv2O4gFBDF4LkDViffjTqgcfnhY3FiRrM 7jS9bZjta081WF6mxWn1Zd/mVlkmAFWqMe9P3rtgyLlKdmr6aAhYgB5NWIQn46aIShus X20CvggYCWwcB3hsiRTEosMwUe9oQKxS5Mg/LhqimC9qS9Z5fXGpl6amR5KInAkgFRDB E+4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOT98XwBgNUrai5ItWYwJI3AGnO06iXbPZWmOD/SU8gmbwAzrZWocoYCXu0VK2hYtFaKPr1/8TQzRsugyA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.249.70 with SMTP id ys6mr27148779pac.5.1455994240725; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:50:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.136.201 with HTTP; Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:50:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> <7a5d240a791940b7864b1d666bf1b634@ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <41916DA1-63A5-487E-A3BD-725B2E95BA1E@vpnc.org> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:50:40 -0800 Message-ID: From: Peter Bowen To: "Salz, Rich" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "curdle@ietf.org" , Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 18:50:43 -0000 On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 7:44 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: >> Historically, the CFRG, as an RG, does lots of work that is not yet meant for >> IETF adoption. The IETF gets to pick which of the outputs are appropriate for >> its protocols and operational guidance. > > Except that in this case, they were responding to TLS-WG requests. > > I believe many folks want purely-open curves at 25519 and 448 strengths. And if there are those that don't, they don't need to use the docs we prepare here. I am in favor of adopting drafts for both curves for at least PKIX and TLS. Both NIST P-256 an P-384 are widely deployed today with PKIX and TLS. As one of the primary arguments for doing this work is to have "purely-open" curves, I think it would be a disservice to force users to choose between strength and open-ness. Similarly, I think only adopting 448 (although not suggested) would be a poor choice because then users would be choosing between performance and open-ness. I would also be remiss if I did not point out that, at least for PKIX and possibly DNSSEC, any curve will not be widely deployed until there is support in hardware-based security modules. Therefore any it makes more sense to adopt both curves now, to help ensure there is hardware support. Thanks, Peter From nobody Sun Feb 21 02:40:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80D991A6F9D for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 02:40:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.206 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.206 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.006] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vsc5YvtIeJ06 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 02:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx4.auckland.ac.nz (mx4.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.125.248]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCDDF1A6FA7 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 02:40:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=auckland.ac.nz; i=@auckland.ac.nz; q=dns/txt; s=mail; t=1456051213; x=1487587213; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=buLPivg9wD5SNKOxhRe07QklVoG8XWOlEJbd4WaVLlY=; b=BWwJd1/wgYusoQ3vc6MaWUKQnoZWl9L+aqOHaU/BZhtF/f5EORxPXeBX zkGqsUdMtXFj4LOZApigLS8jyFPfkMdkFvKTpeERSx78Ju70A2WNl/E1a ZziVRJyCN6DKljMOni6UCG3ZTN/heyEmXcmqDdba/8jq89Tsi6Rhg7Az/ H7CounzUKJzFOmcCYj3joThAFbGGEgp3FfCmOurSydCroWvCkFA9fPfDb YNVnlPinhl21QEqaqGkK/z6n2b9oNVYy1f53Lqn5h+vXjF2Y63b0a4Qmm cCCPKMpmXcAt2/WlAcCYt1n/2jfEuWxEUcM4K4b1MCBki6K2t5TjjXDhu A==; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.22,480,1449486000"; d="scan'208";a="69335615" X-Ironport-HAT: MAIL-SERVERS - $RELAYED X-Ironport-Source: 130.216.4.106 - Outgoing - Outgoing Received: from uxchange10-fe2.uoa.auckland.ac.nz ([130.216.4.106]) by mx4-int.auckland.ac.nz with ESMTP/TLS/AES256-SHA; 21 Feb 2016 23:40:09 +1300 Received: from UXCN10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz ([169.254.5.153]) by uxchange10-fe2.UoA.auckland.ac.nz ([130.216.4.106]) with mapi id 14.03.0266.001; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 23:40:09 +1300 From: Peter Gutmann To: Paul Hoffman , Phillip Hallam-Baker Thread-Topic: [Curdle] Adoption Thread-Index: AdFrW7Y6ZLPJ6umuRb60vySk2wfaGP//QCCAgAANBYCAAPZwgIAACsmAgAAa74CAAAYogIACAVUZ Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 10:40:08 +0000 Message-ID: <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4BF874C@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz> References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> <7a5d240a791940b7864b1d666bf1b634@ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <41916DA1-63A5-487E-A3BD-725B2E95BA1E@vpnc.org> , <92D7F1B1-EA0C-4FC8-A343-D21389322DC1@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <92D7F1B1-EA0C-4FC8-A343-D21389322DC1@vpnc.org> Accept-Language: en-NZ, en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-NZ X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.216.158.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "curdle@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 10:40:16 -0000 Paul Hoffman writes:=0A= =0A= >We both also sell operational stability. Having fewer needless choices is = the=0A= >reason for my suggestion to the WG.=0A= =0A= +1. Look at the figures that Yoav Nir just quoted for the NIST curves, for= =0A= example:=0A= =0A= P-256 is use much more than P-384, and P-521 is practically unheard of=0A= (53748:12:1 according to [1])=0A= =0A= That's a pretty clear indicator of what the industry has opted for. People= =0A= can argue for P521 till they're blue in the face, but it doesn't help if th= e=0A= odds against are 54K to one. If you want to go where the industry demand i= s,=0A= you do P256 and not P384 or P521.=0A= =0A= (That's for the NIST curves obviously, since we have hard data for those.= =0A= Extending this to 25519 and 448 and 3.141 and 6.022e23 and the rest of the= =0A= menagerie are left as exercises for the reader).=0A= =0A= Peter.=0A= From nobody Sun Feb 21 05:24:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE96A1B2E15 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 05:24:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yFr_ZX8shJAU for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 05:24:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x229.google.com (mail-pf0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 816781B2E11 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 05:24:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x229.google.com with SMTP id q63so77504707pfb.0 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 05:24:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=s0pc8q0IbrVFgMIdOkZWVqsYDrC2fr/60c13AU88+yU=; b=0QXUTLX100AMq/BuHTZrVB0hCGa0x4Tiz0Rp02Xe28GcyKdEJJu0LgxXw003PrSddb 2OSiULpe73pnCCr59DtKx7FAq8sfrZxyU9YMpvBtpacMQ/Nu5LhS6oCRrqpLUsw5AJ2L xY7L8sI/VeIhRh7tKbm07og95HlilL3h/6hPSjQPW7m98nY7m/hFfAiSero+pv5VNVCD y1RqoozLBHl9GAwWwc7+lOiPObuliNiR1zHV3lhcezPNu4kK+lOzlVePCIDX/7fR7D/u 9dPJJ4yLRkceuvVbJdkXbB4BEsuonVr/BFK3qGJGEcg3YTU/uPGAYT7mpjITTZe9AZ+n 2QBg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=s0pc8q0IbrVFgMIdOkZWVqsYDrC2fr/60c13AU88+yU=; b=Sx7cdrCulLwypRDONvnmSAGJ65Ct7e2kuCEbUcKWlQt8ox7ys3tP868Gou1z+F2eAL f3CxW7Ss1X+EwhhCFUYJXvNxZ9FqpuJrsixNkchlAkMHdHIDyPgF+4tP2rDXebO823t8 idKipKKxH9Ck0dYm1yObp8fsHwPHjUfG4R0slB+6Bei7+A0UH+68ghzKmx271dTzHISh A5kBpLpj4rsPp6JHxWuHdaAenRuKqHZr/k5Jz467ZbjT0IE4Ad1OLkr4oSLJGEiyxQoX 7KChOz49QPJ378w6/WHunXbjWdXIN79NtFhergKxAS6JH2nwf/BLVuWTrBNSIyaLRAsj A17A== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOS8r4NfEzV5STN3PHEakne5I+tX5qsmiUL0wEkZd6QUD7Poo76jfgZywtaGM++T6U0+FUam39gdDaqi5Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.98.72.70 with SMTP id v67mr31098542pfa.100.1456061061156; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 05:24:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.136.201 with HTTP; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 05:24:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4BF874C@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz> References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> <7a5d240a791940b7864b1d666bf1b634@ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <41916DA1-63A5-487E-A3BD-725B2E95BA1E@vpnc.org> <92D7F1B1-EA0C-4FC8-A343-D21389322DC1@vpnc.org> <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4BF874C@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 05:24:21 -0800 Message-ID: From: Peter Bowen To: Peter Gutmann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "curdle@ietf.org" , Phillip Hallam-Baker , Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 13:24:23 -0000 On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 2:40 AM, Peter Gutmann wrote: > Paul Hoffman writes: > >>We both also sell operational stability. Having fewer needless choices is the >>reason for my suggestion to the WG. > > +1. Look at the figures that Yoav Nir just quoted for the NIST curves, for > example: > > P-256 is use much more than P-384, and P-521 is practically unheard of > (53748:12:1 according to [1]) Conversely, for PKIX trust anchors in the Mozilla trust store, the ratio is 1:10:0. One anchor uses P-256, 10 anchors use P-384, and none use P-521. In the Microsoft trust store the ratio is 2:18:0. Both CAs that have P-256 anchors also have P-384 anchors. At least for drafts relevant to long term signatures (including PKIX and DNSSEC), I would suggest that both curves be adopted. Thanks, Peter From nobody Sun Feb 21 05:31:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ACDE1A0032 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 05:31:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vUGyRCEawvjY for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 05:30:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yk0-x230.google.com (mail-yk0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9C8D1A0151 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 05:30:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yk0-x230.google.com with SMTP id z13so52024035ykd.0 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 05:30:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=dBfaEi4RePdv29AB/yg1IXsFlAoO9pSKQoIDpLVHGWk=; b=MR6Lth8IZW5e2n9gA6urnnnmYNSCOoZtygWZtHGZMzDl5pG0tW0mCnG07bJVV0ocso Vx3S6o8TUgjVXr7Y8aQxebGEg/ycXRPAfmAubCXJCMNp+yOE9ONdxS6UowH30MKB1Vq5 U2iU6ou3Fh38QCwRlN5gI4rX8klBfR5vRXwN+NB4RYz0u19NCa3EXOZW7iOeiNaAr/Of /kvla7aHhjxmpTyMYCXRRBS04K9L/QhkeovSUvXXQkABpSSCARjRLJZ9G2uEzzmJuMWj K+Z0P8Z0RvO/a6UvO5x476Ots/gGxDUf0NXoBhxDLvyK4aS9vw4fSl2rNBfaGPS9kfyV EqDg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=dBfaEi4RePdv29AB/yg1IXsFlAoO9pSKQoIDpLVHGWk=; b=TqN3mgDZRiA5GXC2wWCggKaL0z+13vee9nJ+VbxOz+ye/30eDW4AlVCJ5CEr05+hd4 ZU8AItj64eQnu7cdDDNpn9oqpGwugSAZDcEEchhIN1b3XHuiQV/BFbTjtIWmV4LagWPp 4ptbNd2mXh36af3M3/b/R7S3TOPT9/OPbgdNOTrUxohjw3XK6keJwbHSJwuzcLv2//3v L/jyg+QHwcuRlskBV3BDnOqu8JjMk6wrQYuXFFf5VewHQe9sWL/UokeOCFRzhBLRRNat Qubc5iqRaqRcyiaY0UhCe5r5PdQmqXcfaE00cBc0UnGiXE5vkq1rzHFKOkbs+OacoiBb 21Ng== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOSvdDK8OB+0Kldc6X1AbQXUKqOT30ta47YbPd8aftzvt6VV2ygobKVB/e2fwJCygUw9DPh0IstCEIA5Og== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.37.19.130 with SMTP id 124mr4431961ybt.176.1456061457047; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 05:30:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.13.216.138 with HTTP; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 05:30:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.13.216.138 with HTTP; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 05:30:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> <7a5d240a791940b7864b1d666bf1b634@ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <41916DA1-63A5-487E-A3BD-725B2E95BA1E@vpnc.org> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 05:30:56 -0800 Message-ID: From: Watson Ladd To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113e7e8ceb28e7052c47b914 Archived-At: Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Curdle , Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 13:31:00 -0000 --001a113e7e8ceb28e7052c47b914 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Feb 20, 2016 9:12 AM, "Phillip Hallam-Baker" wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 11:53 AM, Watson Ladd wrote: > > Am I actually reducing the security of what your customers have? No. > > Yes, they are already using Curve 384. End of story. > > And what is more, they are exceptionally nervous about any suggestion that > specifications are being watered down at the request of the NSA BULLRUN > agents. And they are quite right to. > > > > As I've repeatedly said and you've seemed to ignore authentication and > > encryption have different properties. > > Yes, to first order, authentication matters and encryption does not. The WebPKI > is an authentication infrastructure, that is what it was designed to be. > > If you have a root key worth an eight figure sum, you would want it to > have a work > factor that gives a sufficient margin in case of a weakness in the > algorithm. The most > likely form of significant attack being a meet in the middle type > attack that reduces > the work factor to the square root of the original. Funny, you don't look like Claus Diem to me. Of course, an attacker with that level of insight can already crack the P256 encryption and read everything. > > > > In the web context online > > signatures need to be done with end-entity certs once per connection, > > frequently. Therefore end-entity certs use P256 or maybe will end up > > with 25519. > > Perhaps you should look at what is actually being sold today. Mozilla Telemetry does not show P384 showing up with any frequency as the curve protecting the communications. Strong authentication is irrelevant as encryption is what needs to last. Maybe you shouldn't lie to your customers. --001a113e7e8ceb28e7052c47b914 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Feb 20, 2016 9:12 AM, "Phillip Hallam-Baker" <phill@hallambaker.com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 11:53 AM, Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Am I actually reducing the security of what your customers have? = No.
>
> Yes, they are already using Curve 384. End of story.
>
> And what is more, they are exceptionally nervous about any suggestion = that
> specifications are being watered down at the request of the NSA BULLRU= N
> agents. And they are quite right to.
>
>
> > As I've repeatedly said and you've seemed to ignore authe= ntication and
> > encryption have different properties.
>
> Yes, to first order, authentication matters and encryption does not. T= he WebPKI
> is an authentication infrastructure, that is what it was designed to b= e.
>
> If you have a root key worth an eight figure sum, you would want it to=
> have a work
> factor that gives a sufficient margin in case of a weakness in the
> algorithm. The most
> likely form of significant attack being a meet in the middle type
> attack that reduces
> the work factor to the square root of the original.

Funny, you don't look like Claus Diem to me. Of course, = an attacker with that level of insight can already crack=C2=A0the P256 encr= yption and read everything.
>
>
> > In the web context online
> > signatures need to be done with end-entity certs once per connect= ion,
> > frequently. Therefore end-entity certs use P256 or maybe will end= up
> > with 25519.
>
> Perhaps you should look at what is actually being sold today.

Mozilla Telemetry does not show P384 showing up with any fre= quency as the curve protecting the communications. Strong authentication is= irrelevant as encryption is what needs to last. Maybe you shouldn't li= e to your customers.

--001a113e7e8ceb28e7052c47b914-- From nobody Sun Feb 21 11:36:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DE061A8769 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 11:36:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.379 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.379 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w8UBb4kJFx_A for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 11:36:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x22c.google.com (mail-qk0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 656261A6FBA for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 11:36:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id s5so49166368qkd.0 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 11:36:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=krose.org; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=qoS+u4uVEP8/mckxqUziLKHHommUR9gxKh4Cz7p0tQU=; b=gDREWWAy2/AZe5G09B8Uzo5eqqcmz890i7rNtg6RZ185ApYpgtezuVJ239FU3icNed 9JjyjRZG/RibYGvQAGsr/so7Z7U/yKRxfuZOPa35dGlrIVCPMTX+InLqeOKZIKJ1FmL5 o0S+uByXBLAzdUGtaWqDMTR2fakmaVB7XYSBo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=qoS+u4uVEP8/mckxqUziLKHHommUR9gxKh4Cz7p0tQU=; b=m+55RXqHXi6z7NWaZXmQ/gDNm7dwrNlwXz/J+Nc0SGFlWWyAdyJ30/KIhjS+HRVjRX nXteZwlnv5f3T4bOxMt1T0ZlKvym+d7WbbkYzB3w7t2UiGPZQC5pKnZcBFXmNuZ7QpF5 qgabHGjkTI/w2YyrDT2vUDekKA1CTnkj0zkhoPSZbBUPDb824tNBsuwZktxwHmBXlvVZ al3cUiTRMscIm9pmgKmuiyhXSjuID4jEm406d5PYEqOLAiiPr45ACLLeewfun7V2jdsN EBPctkS92kjq5pLhMt5sI5UrF/ij069IAEflUoQNYRm0sVE3o9GrYM0KHOpfiUPyn06A AMAQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOScZifsYQbLoMnHLGmgZXmPWbpsQOYNhoaPBQTGzpKSzrttbf2vypDb+7MTu7yyF0fcbhwv9quTL73Rzg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.55.82.85 with SMTP id g82mr27811032qkb.107.1456083390585; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 11:36:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.55.92.131 with HTTP; Sun, 21 Feb 2016 11:36:30 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [2001:470:1f07:121:d0c8:97c4:4383:57eb] In-Reply-To: <822372499-3464@skroderider.denisbider.com> References: <822372499-3464@skroderider.denisbider.com> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 14:36:30 -0500 Message-ID: From: Kyle Rose To: denis bider Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Daniel Migault , Phillip Hallam-Baker , Watson Ladd , curdle@ietf.org, Paul Hoffman , "Mark D. Baushke" Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 19:36:33 -0000 On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 11:39 AM, denis bider wrote: > The use of Curve25519 and Curve448 in SSH is for encryption. It's used for > key exchange, not authentication. At least for curve 25519, it is offered by recent versions of OpenSSH both for KX (curve25519-sha256@libssh.org) and for authentication (ssh-ed25519-cert-v01@openssh.com, for both host key authentication and user authentication). draft-josefsson-ssh-curves notwithstanding, curve 448 doesn't yet appear to be in-use in the real world for either at this point. Kyle From nobody Mon Feb 22 04:41:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C15351A1B3D for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 04:41:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.043 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.043 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.006] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cXV8pcrSAHw7 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 04:41:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [IPv6:2001:1488:800:400::400]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19EF61A00B7 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 04:41:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from zimbra.rfc1925.org (calcifer.labs.nic.cz [217.31.192.138]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAE32180A17; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 13:41:31 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1456144891; bh=pa4o8yAR2hRShceae5Awctuni8dwYq+jBmV6pgBCbSE=; h=Date:From:To; b=X/iAX/QfHvQKMux6+P8fM6KRUwjSofv3+d05wHKr75PS0N4PZFIRdrxNgBSuWNEVS jRt6v6tDa50rXxytx63KBMxnuKo26jHro6kifa4tE0Cao/isdQ+8cOehFZlgrkUYVZ vIoJjf3wBw7Hi9K1vodJkd0aVL3+Y1FrXvzC1+p8= Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 13:41:31 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Ond=C5=99ej_Sur=C3=BD?= To: Paul Hoffman Message-ID: <2025991814.4513.1456144891819.JavaMail.zimbra@nic.cz> In-Reply-To: <41916DA1-63A5-487E-A3BD-725B2E95BA1E@vpnc.org> References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> <7a5d240a791940b7864b1d666bf1b634@ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <41916DA1-63A5-487E-A3BD-725B2E95BA1E@vpnc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Originating-IP: [217.31.192.138] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.6.0_GA_1178 (ZimbraWebClient - FF44 (Linux)/8.6.0_GA_1178) Thread-Topic: Adoption Thread-Index: XTsx9zeZu0LKt1VmRcGHzrn9x75zCw== X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.7 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Cc: "Salz, Rich" , curdle@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:41:35 -0000 Paul, we spoke about the need or rather "no-need" for Ed448 in DNSSEC in person a= nd while I am inclined in favor of no-need, I think that it doesn't really = make sense to have a lengthy debate before the adoption. Adopting an I-D i= nto WG doesn't mean that the RFC has to be produced, right? So to be more productive than just ping-ponging back the already said argum= ents, let's just adopt Ed448 for DNSSEC and ask people to contribute the re= asoning for Ed448 directly into the draft, and we can have this mud fight^H= ^Hcivil argument after this has been done. Things said in emails get lost,= while they tend to last when written do in I-D. Cheers, Ondrej ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Hoffman" > To: "Salz, Rich" > Cc: curdle@ietf.org > Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2016 4:03:31 PM > Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption > On 20 Feb 2016, at 6:24, Salz, Rich wrote: >=20 >> Speaking as chair, Phil's right: 448 is in the charter. >> Speaking as an individual: it would feel wrong for us not to pick up >> the CFRG work. >=20 > Historically, the CFRG, as an RG, does lots of work that is not yet > meant for IETF adoption. The IETF gets to pick which of the outputs are > appropriate for its protocols and operational guidance. >=20 > The fact that 448 is in the charter is irrelevant to the question of > adoption. Lots of WGs take a wide charter and work on a narrower subset > based on discussion about the actual value of the bits in the charter. >=20 > To date, no one has given any reason to need a signature mechanism with > more than 255 bits of effective strength. People here, and in the CFRG, > have expressed concern that a proliferation of signature mechanisms has > a negative operational impact. Cheers, -- Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD -- Technical Fellow -------------------------------------------- CZ.NIC, z.s.p.o. -- Laborato=C5=99e CZ.NIC Milesovska 5, 130 00 Praha 3, Czech Republic mailto:ondrej.sury@nic.cz https://nic.cz/ -------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon Feb 22 06:25:21 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7224B1B31BE for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 06:25:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.047 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.047 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UCvPvWmJbbLF for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 06:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B73DF1B31BC for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 06:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.114.1] (50-1-98-216.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.98.216]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id u1MEPHSD052806 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 22 Feb 2016 07:25:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-98-216.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.98.216] claimed to be [192.168.114.1] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: "=?utf-8?b?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?=" Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 06:25:16 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2025991814.4513.1456144891819.JavaMail.zimbra@nic.cz> References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> <7a5d240a791940b7864b1d666bf1b634@ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <41916DA1-63A5-487E-A3BD-725B2E95BA1E@vpnc.org> <2025991814.4513.1456144891819.JavaMail.zimbra@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.3r5187) Archived-At: Cc: "Salz, Rich" , curdle@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 14:25:20 -0000 On 22 Feb 2016, at 4:41, Ondřej Surý wrote: > we spoke about the need or rather "no-need" for Ed448 in DNSSEC in > person and while I am inclined in favor of no-need, I think that it > doesn't really make sense to have a lengthy debate before the > adoption. Adopting an I-D into WG doesn't mean that the RFC has to be > produced, right? Correct, it technically does not. However, all of us here have been in plenty of WGs where adopted drafts got moved forward "because why else would we have adopted them" and, as you already saw in this thread, "because it's in our charter". > So to be more productive than just ping-ponging back the already said > arguments, let's just adopt Ed448 for DNSSEC and ask people to > contribute the reasoning for Ed448 directly into the draft, and we can > have this mud fight^H^Hcivil argument after this has been done. > Things said in emails get lost, while they tend to last when written > do in I-D. Thank you, that's an excellent point. If the WG goes ahead with any of the Ed448 docs (which it seems likely to do at least for some), having those document explicitly state what their expected use will be given the coexistence of 25519 document would be quite valuable. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Mon Feb 22 08:24:43 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EE0D1A894E for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 08:24:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.458 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.458 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.006] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U4gNTdh14wbJ for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 08:24:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [217.31.204.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2D671B3300 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 08:24:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from zimbra.rfc1925.org (calcifer.labs.nic.cz [217.31.192.138]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B2F91813BD; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 17:24:37 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1456158277; bh=1z9uKJh+rYxpvteisxUv7Lujhi2UwLyXNSoQBJiyN1o=; h=Date:From:To; b=xCdje/6n5qJKIxdMGQDcF1ZqsORwqJ6noQemjzhRfhAS/EaVDkA2vpaGomZWqD3Jj Ea2esW7ZYES/FIavTzD5zKTs7VsCNgxugLgKpWXHHUMbgx1rL0uOSJSBvkaFRSSi53 KylpP2Vvy2CRShAP7q/M5uuBAmakbHU9qzZVnLQI= Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 17:24:37 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Ond=C5=99ej_Sur=C3=BD?= To: Paul Hoffman Message-ID: <1649646692.4567.1456158277109.JavaMail.zimbra@nic.cz> In-Reply-To: References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> <7a5d240a791940b7864b1d666bf1b634@ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <41916DA1-63A5-487E-A3BD-725B2E95BA1E@vpnc.org> <2025991814.4513.1456144891819.JavaMail.zimbra@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Originating-IP: [217.31.192.138] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.6.0_GA_1178 (ZimbraWebClient - FF44 (Linux)/8.6.0_GA_1178) Thread-Topic: Adoption Thread-Index: fKGQhApFBBeauDgLrqP5xan3rk2o9w== X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.7 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Cc: curdle@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 16:24:42 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Hoffman" > To: "Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD" > Cc: "Salz, Rich" , curdle@ietf.org > Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 3:25:16 PM > Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption > On 22 Feb 2016, at 4:41, Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD wrote: >=20 >> we spoke about the need or rather "no-need" for Ed448 in DNSSEC in >> person and while I am inclined in favor of no-need, I think that it >> doesn't really make sense to have a lengthy debate before the >> adoption. Adopting an I-D into WG doesn't mean that the RFC has to be >> produced, right? >=20 > Correct, it technically does not. However, all of us here have been in > plenty of WGs where adopted drafts got moved forward "because why else > would we have adopted them" and, as you already saw in this thread, > "because it's in our charter". Would adding a prominent (at the beginning, at the end) notice to the I-D t= hat this draft was adopted to be thoroughly discussed in the WG, but it's n= ot necessarily meant for ending as RFC, help to adopt this? So we can move= on? Or just adding an empty "Justification section" somewhere with similar note= that can be dropped when the Justification section has been beaten to the = death in the WG.=20 >> So to be more productive than just ping-ponging back the already said >> arguments, let's just adopt Ed448 for DNSSEC and ask people to >> contribute the reasoning for Ed448 directly into the draft, and we can >> have this mud fight^H^Hcivil argument after this has been done. >> Things said in emails get lost, while they tend to last when written >> do in I-D. >=20 > Thank you, that's an excellent point. If the WG goes ahead with any of > the Ed448 docs (which it seems likely to do at least for some), having > those document explicitly state what their expected use will be given > the coexistence of 25519 document would be quite valuable. Wholeheartedly agree. As an author of DNSSEC-Ed448 I don't care that much whether the I-D gets ad= opted or not, I am fine both ways, that's for WG to decide as a group, I ju= st don't want my beard to go white while reading the lengthy arguments runn= ing back and forth and waiting for a decision. Cheers, -- Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD -- Technical Fellow -------------------------------------------- CZ.NIC, z.s.p.o. -- Laborato=C5=99e CZ.NIC Milesovska 5, 130 00 Praha 3, Czech Republic mailto:ondrej.sury@nic.cz https://nic.cz/ -------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon Feb 22 08:30:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339121B37BA for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 08:30:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.407 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.407 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.006, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7vf-zaIMGzRo for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 08:29:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay08.akamai.com (prod-mail-xrelay08.akamai.com [96.6.114.112]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F7861B37B8 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 08:29:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay08.akamai.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.imss70 (Postfix) with ESMTP id D16DD200018; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 16:29:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from prod-mail-relay08.akamai.com (prod-mail-relay08.akamai.com [172.27.22.71]) by prod-mail-xrelay08.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B61FB200009; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 16:29:57 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; s=a1; t=1456158597; bh=q8HApdM1vD74RuKqnnaWUCFwdJmLwbFh6e0woWdolhU=; l=564; h=From:To:CC:Date:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=IbtcixQl1ZWw8joC9nYedOqZGcglIqNdfr5G0viXCbyxgnBA6YbI+LejEk+NxUzmW qLGvGd+Jb6QbqYln+8rKp7fyUfPmu63wvi/jZokm+4N87fjIUDojthv0k5OYDQrBlD GDHpE6tTf2LNi54CvImUaC4GWUG02lKgzVMfoZuI= Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com (ustx2ex-cas2.msg.corp.akamai.com [172.27.25.31]) by prod-mail-relay08.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1E3498082; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 16:29:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.27.101) by ustx2ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.27.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1076.9; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 10:29:51 -0600 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.6.131]) by ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.6.131]) with mapi id 15.00.1076.000; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 10:29:51 -0600 From: "Salz, Rich" To: =?utf-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= , Paul Hoffman Thread-Topic: Adoption Thread-Index: AQHRbY2Kk5OOqOnEg0WSuXyMzyRpBZ84QTMQ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 16:29:50 +0000 Message-ID: <88c3439b8e174bee8e3ef363b647fcb5@ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C1121E5EAC@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> <7a5d240a791940b7864b1d666bf1b634@ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <41916DA1-63A5-487E-A3BD-725B2E95BA1E@vpnc.org> <2025991814.4513.1456144891819.JavaMail.zimbra@nic.cz> <1649646692.4567.1456158277109.JavaMail.zimbra@nic.cz> In-Reply-To: <1649646692.4567.1456158277109.JavaMail.zimbra@nic.cz> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.38.67] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "curdle@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 16:30:00 -0000 PiBXb3VsZCBhZGRpbmcgYSBwcm9taW5lbnQgKGF0IHRoZSBiZWdpbm5pbmcsIGF0IHRoZSBlbmQp IG5vdGljZSB0byB0aGUgSS1EDQo+IHRoYXQgdGhpcyBkcmFmdCB3YXMgYWRvcHRlZCB0byBiZSB0 aG9yb3VnaGx5IGRpc2N1c3NlZCBpbiB0aGUgV0csIGJ1dCBpdCdzIG5vdA0KPiBuZWNlc3Nhcmls eSBtZWFudCBmb3IgZW5kaW5nIGFzIFJGQywgaGVscCB0byBhZG9wdCB0aGlzPyAgU28gd2UgY2Fu IG1vdmUgb24/DQoNCk5vdCBuZWVkZWQuICBUaGF0J3Mgd2hhdCBhZG9wdGlvbiBtZWFucy4gIFNv IGZhciBpdCBzZWVtcyB0aGF0IFBhdWwgaXMgdGhlIG9ubHkgb25lIG9wcG9zZWQ7IGRvIG90aGVy cyBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIGhpbSwgb3IgaXMgaGUgImluIHRoZSByb3VnaCIgaW4gdGVybXMgb2YgY29u c2Vuc3VzPw0KDQo= From nobody Tue Feb 23 00:34:50 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: curdle@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CF4A1B3F43 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2016 00:34:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UFgwX8Y4BuZj for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2016 00:34:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 375841B3F44 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2016 00:34:46 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f79a76d000000a93-be-56cc19a36cbd Received: from ESESSHC003.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.27]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 2A.0F.02707.3A91CC65; Tue, 23 Feb 2016 09:34:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB307.ericsson.se ([169.254.7.43]) by ESESSHC003.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.27]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 23 Feb 2016 09:34:43 +0100 From: John Mattsson To: "Salz, Rich" , =?utf-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= , Paul Hoffman Thread-Topic: [Curdle] Adoption Thread-Index: AQHRbhUKDzvpNBbPJkmuaOr24qOMjw== Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 08:34:42 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.1.160122 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.147] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_002_D2F1D7BD43C40johnmattssonericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrEIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7tO4SyTNhBjNPc1psXTiL2aJluYvF rfVfWC3+b+lkcWDxmHxkAbPHkiU/mTw2Xb7D6PF59lXmAJYoLpuU1JzMstQifbsErozTp1+z F/SZVfza84CxgXGDSRcjJ4eEgInEibNLmSFsMYkL99azdTFycQgJHGaUWNw0gRnCWcwo8fHv YxaQKjYBA4m5exrAqkQEmhgl7jVMZQdJMAuoS3zr6QAbJSwgJ9H5YRVrFyMHUJG8RNtHQZCw iICexOanfxlBbBYBVYmNvdNYQWxeAXOJxhU72UBsRqArvp9awwQxUlzi1pP5TBDXiUg8vHia DcIWlXj5+B9YryjQzNsda9lBVkkIKElM25oG0RomsatnAhvEeEGJkzOfsExgFJmFZOosJGWz kJTNAprELKApsX6XPkSJtcSBs/eZIWxFiSndD9khbEOJ/2dmMUOUK0is3ANUzgVkrmCU+Px9 BxNM768pl9mR9S5g5F7FKFqcWpyUm25kpJdalJlcXJyfp5eXWrKJERjbB7f8NtjB+PK54yFG AQ5GJR7eDVGnw4RYE8uKK3MPMaoAzXm0YfUFRimWvPy8VCURXge+M2FCvCmJlVWpRfnxRaU5 qcWHGKU5WJTEeVc7rw8TEkhPLEnNTk0tSC2CyTJxcEo1MAps2togPiPxLztndZsMs/y+MM6/ 758GXT0XJtj70uZUvHh0jsNKs/67zxrcXL6u4cpsfrIzhWO57luW/pB2g+dCHBt/LckMOWyd +vRfs8rGT7xCFxbsK1u0int1Ntt/I/8pOa3OnCIH1nGrPPZ+dvLKwzNM6btZKs/8OV5z86XA op/bXS+KzFJiKc5INNRiLipOBADzzQjC9QIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: "curdle@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." 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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 07:08:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.13.216.138 with HTTP; Tue, 23 Feb 2016 07:08:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 07:08:23 -0800 Message-ID: From: Watson Ladd To: John Mattsson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "Salz, Rich" , =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= , "curdle@ietf.org" , Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [Curdle] Adoption X-BeenThere: curdle@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of potential new security area wg." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 15:08:26 -0000 On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 12:34 AM, John Mattsson wrote: > I would in general favour adoption of Ed448. Cryptographic algorithms wit= h > more than 128-bit security are widely used by government and enterprises > where the additional security margin is considered worth the extra > processing. New forms of cryptanalysis reducing the security of current > state-of-the-art algorithms is certainly imaginable, and replacing > software and especially hardware takes time. I think the general problem > is too late deprecation of weak and totally broken algorithms. I do not > see the use of =E2=80=9Cmore than needed security=E2=80=9D as a problem. Have you actually considered how much time you actually have? For encryption you can *never* replace the algorithm you used: it must remain secure for the lifetime of the encrypted data. Authentication only needs to be secure when the authentication happens. I agree depreciation is a problem, but we are getting better at it: SHA-1 in PKIX has signed death warrant, while MD5 had a surprisingly long. And if you are saying that it is likely that Ed25519 breaks in 5 or 10 years, you probably don't want to use it for encryption. > > > That said, some protocols such as DNSSEC might be best served by a few > carefully selected algorithms. > > > > On 22/02/16 17:29, "Curdle on behalf of Salz, Rich" > wrote: > >>> Would adding a prominent (at the beginning, at the end) notice to the >>>I-D >>> that this draft was adopted to be thoroughly discussed in the WG, but >>>it's not >>> necessarily meant for ending as RFC, help to adopt this? So we can >>>move on? >> >>Not needed. That's what adoption means. So far it seems that Paul is >>the only one opposed; do others agree with him, or is he "in the rough" >>in terms of consensus? >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Curdle mailing list >>Curdle@ietf.org >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/curdle > > > _______________________________________________ > Curdle mailing list > Curdle@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/curdle > --=20 "Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains". --Rousseau.