From mailman-owner@ietf.org Sat Dec 1 05:08:12 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA09804 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 05:08:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA21435 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 05:08:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 05:08:12 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200112011008.FAA21435@optimus.ietf.org> From: mailman-owner@ietf.org Subject: ietf.org mailing list memberships reminder To: dcp-web-archive@ietf.org X-No-Archive: yes Precedence: bulk X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol This is a reminder, sent out once a month, about your ietf.org mailing list memberships. It includes your subscription info and how to use it to change it or unsubscribe from a list. 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Passwords for dcp-web-archive@ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- dcp@ietf.org gewN http://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/dcp/dcp-web-archive@ietf.org From dcp-admin@ietf.org Mon Dec 3 11:51:37 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA13937 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:51:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA02157; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:51:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA02119 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:51:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA13918 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:51:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from new.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id fB3GpKN14961 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 08:51:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 11:50:45 -0500 From: Aaron Falk To: dcp Message-ID: <15810000.1007398245@new.isi.edu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [dcp] FYI, the dcp draft is out... (fwd) Sender: dcp-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: dcp-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Datagram Control Protocol X-BeenThere: dcp@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: Monday, December 03, 2001 08:47:04 AM -0800 From: Sally Floyd To: kohler@aciri.org, Mark Handley , Jitendra Padhye Subject: FYI, the dcp draft is out... ------- Forwarded Message Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 08:33:59 -0500 From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: IETF-Announce: ; Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-kohler-dcp-01.txt,.ps --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Datagram Control Protocol (DCP) Author(s) : E. Kohler, M. Handley et al. Filename : draft-kohler-dcp-01.txt,.ps Pages : 53 Date : 30-Nov-01 This document specifies the Datagram Control Protocol (DCP), which implements a congestion-controlled, unreliable flow of datagrams suitable for use by applications such as streaming media A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kohler-dcp-01.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-kohler-dcp-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-kohler-dcp-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20011130133027.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-kohler-dcp-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-kohler-dcp-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20011130133027.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- ------- End of Forwarded Message ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- _______________________________________________ dcp mailing list dcp@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcp From dcp-admin@ietf.org Tue Dec 4 18:15:48 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA17201 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 18:15:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA10619; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 18:15:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA10590 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 18:15:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA17198 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 18:15:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from new.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id fB4NFiN09378; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 15:15:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 18:15:03 -0500 From: Aaron Falk To: dcp cc: Transport Area Directorate Message-ID: <12320000.1007507703@new.isi.edu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [dcp] draft DCP charter for discussion Sender: dcp-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: dcp-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Datagram Control Protocol X-BeenThere: dcp@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All- Below I've enclosed a draft working group charter for a working group to develop the DCP protocol. This charter has been agreed to by the Transport Area Directors, the draft authors, and myself. However, it's important to be clear that at this moment DCP is only a BoF, it requires IESG approval to create a working group. To that end we'll be discussing this charter in Salt Lake City. The IESG will be looking for indications from the community regarding whether this work is considered worthwhile and whether there is a critical mass of interested folks willing to support working group activities (e.g., writing, reviewing, implementing, etc). Comments on the drafts and charter are encouraged at this time. --aaron ================================ DRAFT CHARTER: The Datagram Control Protocol (DCP) The Datagram Control Protocol working group is chartered to develop and standardize the Datagram Control Protocol (DCP). DCP is a minimal general purpose transport-layer protocol providing only two core functions: - the establishment, maintenance and teardown of an unreliable packet flow. - congestion control of that packet flow. Within the constraints of providing these core functions, DCP aims to be a general purpose protocol, minimizing the overhead of packet header size or end-node processing as much as possible. Therefore, DCP is as simple as possible, and as far as reasonably possible, it should avoid providing higher-level transport functionality. DCP will provide an congestion-controlled, unreliable packet stream, without TCP's reliability or in-order delivery semantics. Additional unicast, flow-based application functionality can be layered over DCP. SCOPE Drafts for DCP, and several associated congestion control IDs, already exist. The first task before the working group will be an abbreviated functional requirement validation of those drafts. There are two possible outcomes: (1) The current DCP draft is declared suitable for further work, with some areas listed for possible extension. (2) The current DCP draft is declared unsuitable for further work, and more formal functional requirement exploration begins. Prior to the final development of the protocol, the working group will investigate areas of functionality that should be integrated into DCP because they are difficult or impossible to layer above it. These areas include security and multi-homing/mobility, at a minimum. For security, the working group will endeavor to ensure that DCP incorporates good non-cryptographic mechanisms that make it resistant to denial-of-service attacks on DCP connections and DCP servers. A related topic that will be explored is whether DCP can be a candidate to replace UDP in the transport of security management protocols such as IKE and JFK. The working group will also investigate DCP's relationship with RTP (the Real-time Transport Protocol). Once the DCP specification has stabilized, the WG will produce a document providing guidance to potential users of DCP. The precise form of this document will be determined by WG discussion, but it might include example APIs, an applicability statement, or other forms of guidance about appropriate usage of DCP. WORKING GROUP MILESTONES * Publish summary of required protocol functions/requirements * Decision to build on proposed DCP protocol, alternate protocol, or quit and go home * Publish DCP protocol as proposed standard * Publish document providing guidance to users of DCP. * Publish congestion profiles (as proposed standard) for canonical cases of: a) one initial window's worth of data b) TCP equivalent c) TCP Friendly Rate Control _______________________________________________ dcp mailing list dcp@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcp From dcp-admin@ietf.org Tue Dec 4 20:06:06 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA20231 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:06:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA13670; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:06:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA13643 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:05:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from aland.bbn.com (aland.bbn.com [204.162.9.10]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA20227 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:05:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from aland.bbn.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by aland.bbn.com (8.11.3/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fB515tt82415; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:05:56 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from craig@aland.bbn.com) Message-Id: <200112050105.fB515tt82415@aland.bbn.com> To: Aaron Falk cc: dcp , Transport Area Directorate In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Dec 2001 18:15:03 EST." <12320000.1007507703@new.isi.edu> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 20:05:55 -0500 From: Craig Partridge Subject: [dcp] Re: draft DCP charter for discussion Sender: dcp-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: dcp-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Datagram Control Protocol X-BeenThere: dcp@ietf.org Well help me out here. It seems to me that the protocol, as described, is an oxymoron. I.e., without a closed loop there's no flow control and if the protocol is a true unreliable packet flow (e.g., UDP) there's no loop. So, I ask, is the plan for UDP with acks? (I.e., the packet may not get there, but if it does, the sender hears about it). Or are we talking something wilder? Craig _______________________________________________ dcp mailing list dcp@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcp From dcp-admin@ietf.org Tue Dec 4 20:08:06 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA20289 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:08:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA13735; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:08:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA13709 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:07:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from elk.aciri.org (elk.aciri.org [192.150.187.21]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA20286 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:07:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from elk.aciri.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by elk.aciri.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fB518Mr75964; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 17:08:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from floyd@elk.aciri.org) Message-Id: <200112050108.fB518Mr75964@elk.aciri.org> To: "Mike O'Dell" cc: tsv@newdev.harvard.edu, dcp@ietf.org From: Sally Floyd Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 17:08:22 -0800 Subject: [dcp] Re: DCP charter..... Sender: dcp-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: dcp-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Datagram Control Protocol X-BeenThere: dcp@ietf.org >so is there a draft protocol to review at the BOF? >or at least a sketch of a protocol? Yep, you could look at the DCP web page at: http://www.aciri.org/kohler/dcp/ and at the four internet drafts on that page. >or is this seeking permission to create a design WG?? > >if it is the last item, "Just Say No." > >i suggest a design WG cannot be chartered for this >effort because by the time it finishes, it will >not be in line with its charter, ie, simple, clean, >etc. need i point to PPP as the object lesson?? Yep, we agree. The proposed charter says the following: Drafts for DCP, and several associated congestion control IDs, already exist. The first task before the working group will be an abbreviated functional requirement validation of those drafts. There are two possible outcomes: (1) The current DCP draft is declared suitable for further work, with some areas listed for possible extension. (2) The current DCP draft is declared unsuitable for further work, and more formal functional requirement exploration begins. The authors of the DCP documents hope that the outcome of the BOF will be to approve the general design of DCP, as discussed in "draft-kohler-dcp-01.txt", to have some interesting discussions about specific requirements in terms of mobility and security, and to get on with the work. We shall see. I am cc-ing this to the DCP mailing list, where the discussion should continue... - Sally _______________________________________________ dcp mailing list dcp@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcp From dcp-admin@ietf.org Tue Dec 4 20:13:01 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA20446 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:13:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA13850; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:13:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA13815 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:12:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from elk.aciri.org (elk.aciri.org [192.150.187.21]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA20442 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:12:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from elk.aciri.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by elk.aciri.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fB51Cdr76063; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 17:12:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from floyd@elk.aciri.org) Message-Id: <200112050112.fB51Cdr76063@elk.aciri.org> To: Craig Partridge cc: dcp , Transport Area Directorate From: Sally Floyd Subject: Re: [dcp] Re: draft DCP charter for discussion Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 17:12:39 -0800 Sender: dcp-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: dcp-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Datagram Control Protocol X-BeenThere: dcp@ietf.org Craig - >Well help me out here. It seems to me that the protocol, as described, >is an oxymoron. I.e., without a closed loop there's no flow control >and if the protocol is a true unreliable packet flow (e.g., UDP) there's >no loop. > >So, I ask, is the plan for UDP with acks? (I.e., the packet may not get >there, but if it does, the sender hears about it). Or are we talking >something wilder? There are three separate drafts, along with the main DCP document, that specify congestion control profiles. They are available on the DCP web page at: http://www.aciri.org/kohler/dcp/ They are a large part of the point of DCP in the first place. The TCP-like congestion control profile includes acknowledgements like those in TCP. The TFRC congestion control profile includes the kind of feedback in TFRC. The application gets to chose which congestion control profile it prefers. The application does *not* get to choose to send at a high rate with no congestion control at all. - Sally _______________________________________________ dcp mailing list dcp@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcp From dcp-admin@ietf.org Tue Dec 4 20:55:01 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA21289 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:55:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA14640; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:55:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA14609 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:54:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccr.org (servo.ccr.org [198.3.0.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA21286 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:54:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccr.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ccr.org (8.9.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id UAA56396; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:54:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mo@ccr.org) Message-Id: <200112050154.UAA56396@ccr.org> To: Sally Floyd cc: tsv@newdev.harvard.edu, dcp@ietf.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Dec 2001 17:08:22 PST." <200112050108.fB518Mr75964@elk.aciri.org> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 20:54:46 -0500 From: "Mike O'Dell" Subject: [dcp] Re: DCP charter..... Sender: dcp-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: dcp-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Datagram Control Protocol X-BeenThere: dcp@ietf.org thanks for the pointers! cheers, -mo _______________________________________________ dcp mailing list dcp@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcp From dcp-admin@ietf.org Tue Dec 4 22:23:36 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA23686 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 22:23:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA17519; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 22:23:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA17490 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 22:23:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailman.packetdesign.com (dns.packetdesign.com [65.192.41.10]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA23679 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 22:23:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from ash.packetdesign.com (ash.packetdesign.com [192.168.0.243]) by mailman.packetdesign.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id fB53Mui21236; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 19:22:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from casner@acm.org) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 19:23:36 -0800 (PST) From: Stephen Casner To: Aaron Falk cc: dcp , Transport Area Directorate Subject: Re: [dcp] draft DCP charter for discussion In-Reply-To: <12320000.1007507703@new.isi.edu> Message-ID: <20011204191807.C279-100000@ash.packetdesign.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: dcp-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: dcp-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Datagram Control Protocol X-BeenThere: dcp@ietf.org On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, Aaron Falk wrote: > All- > > Below I've enclosed a draft working group charter for a working group to > develop the DCP protocol. ... > Drafts for DCP, and several associated congestion control IDs, already > exist. The first task before the working group will be an abbreviated > functional requirement validation of those drafts. There are two > possible outcomes: (1) The current DCP draft is declared suitable for > further work, with some areas listed for possible extension. (2) The > current DCP draft is declared unsuitable for further work, and more > formal functional requirement exploration begins. It seems to me that there might be at least a third possible outcome which is that the functional requirement validation leads to the conclusion that creating a protocol at this point in the functionality space should not be done. I'm not saying that is the outcome to expect, but to be intellectually honest, it should be included. -- Steve _______________________________________________ dcp mailing list dcp@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcp From dcp-admin@ietf.org Wed Dec 5 00:48:55 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA27906 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 00:48:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA23409; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 00:48:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA23380 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 00:48:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from internaut.com ([64.38.134.99]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA27901 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 00:48:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA15057; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 21:36:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aboba@internaut.com) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 21:36:25 -0800 (PST) From: Bernard Aboba To: Sally Floyd cc: "Mike O'Dell" , tsv@newdev.harvard.edu, dcp@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <200112050108.fB518Mr75964@elk.aciri.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [dcp] Re: DCP charter..... Sender: dcp-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: dcp-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Datagram Control Protocol X-BeenThere: dcp@ietf.org > Yep, you could look at the DCP web page at: > http://www.aciri.org/kohler/dcp/ > and at the four internet drafts on that page. Looked at the drafts and the major application cited was telephony and streaming media (control? data?). While I can see how some of the DCP services might be desirable, the drafts don't really provide a complete picture of how DCP will be used, or a convincing argument as to why alternatives (such as RTP deployed with layered codecs) isn't sufficient. As a result, it isn't clear from these documents whether we have a solution in search of a problem. > Drafts for DCP, and several associated congestion control IDs, already > exist. The first task before the working group will be an abbreviated > functional requirement validation of those drafts. There are two > possible outcomes: (1) The current DCP draft is declared suitable for > further work, with some areas listed for possible extension. (2) The > current DCP draft is declared unsuitable for further work, and more > formal functional requirement exploration begins. Seems to me that a more in depth "problem statement" might be helpful, too. Given that we're finally starting to ship telephony/streaming media software using other transports, some good arguments will be needed to persuade folks to change horses in mid-ride. This is particularly true given how long it seems to ship passable support for new transports. _______________________________________________ dcp mailing list dcp@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcp From dcp-admin@ietf.org Thu Dec 6 10:34:47 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA27601 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:34:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA22125; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:34:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA22095 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:34:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from ms1.uibk.ac.at (ms1.uibk.ac.at [138.232.1.201]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA27597 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:34:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from web-mail1.uibk.ac.at (web-mail1.uibk.ac.at [138.232.1.225] Michael.Welzl@uibk.ac.at) by ms1.uibk.ac.at (8.11.3/E2) with ESMTP id fB6FYg823412810 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 16:34:43 +0100 (CET) Received: (from apache@localhost) by web-mail1.uibk.ac.at (8.11.6/8.11.0) id fB6FUoP13927 for dcp@ietf.org; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 16:30:50 +0100 To: dcp@ietf.org Message-ID: <1007652650.3c0f8f2a7b4d7@web-mail1.uibk.ac.at> Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 16:30:50 +0100 (CET) From: Michael Welzl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.6 X-Originating-IP: 138.232.65.57 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [dcp] Good idea! Sender: dcp-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: dcp-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Datagram Control Protocol X-BeenThere: dcp@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi everybody, Having read the DCP drafts and taken a look at the profiles, I would say that DCP is just what the world needs :) It's nice, designed to work with a practically unlimited range of congestion control schemes (I found it particularly nice that it is not limited to TCP-friendly congestion control and that things like the ACK generation rate are left open), and just plainly a good idea. That's really all I have to say to it for the time being; it's a shame that I can't be at the IETF meeting, but I definitely hope that you will succeed in creating a Working Group. Cheers, Michael _______________________________________________ dcp mailing list dcp@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcp From dcp-admin@ietf.org Thu Dec 6 20:01:32 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA20044 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:01:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA22754; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:01:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA22723 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:01:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (nat.alvestrand.no [217.13.28.204]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA20040 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:01:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from HALVESTR-W2K.emea.cisco.com (eikenes.alvestrand.no [217.13.28.203]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61652622AE; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 02:00:56 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 13:18:46 -0800 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Aaron Falk , dcp Cc: Transport Area Directorate Message-ID: <179010012.1007644726@localhost> In-Reply-To: <12320000.1007507703@new.isi.edu> References: <12320000.1007507703@new.isi.edu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.1 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [dcp] Re: draft DCP charter for discussion Sender: dcp-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: dcp-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Datagram Control Protocol X-BeenThere: dcp@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit so what is the relationship between DCP and the "congestion control building blocks"/"congestion manager" approach that was all the rage a few IETFs ago? TFRC is a cross-pointer, but it seems a lonely one... Harald _______________________________________________ dcp mailing list dcp@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcp From dcp-admin@ietf.org Thu Dec 6 20:34:46 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA20825 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:34:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA23661; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:34:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA23628 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:34:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from vulture.aciri.org (adsl-63-196-11-253.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.196.11.253]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA20798 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:34:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from vulture.aciri.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vulture.aciri.org (8.11.6/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fB71X8L42719; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 17:33:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mjh@vulture.aciri.org) From: Mark Handley X-Organisation: ACIRI To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand cc: Aaron Falk , dcp , Transport Area Directorate Subject: Re: [dcp] Re: draft DCP charter for discussion In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Dec 2001 13:18:46 PST." <179010012.1007644726@localhost> Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 17:33:08 -0800 Message-ID: <42717.1007688788@vulture.aciri.org> Sender: dcp-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: dcp-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Datagram Control Protocol X-BeenThere: dcp@ietf.org >so what is the relationship between DCP and the "congestion control >building blocks"/"congestion manager" approach that was all the rage a few >IETFs ago? I think fractionally less than the relationship between TCP and CM. You could implement TCP in such a way that it used CM. Similarly you could implement DCP in such a way that it used CM. But you don't have to in either case. However, while TCP essentially has only one type of congestion control feedback, DCP is more flexible - the feedback type and CC dynamics can depend on the negotiated CCID. Thus while you could use a CM to share congestion state between TCP flows and/or DCP flows that use TCP-like dynamics. And you could use a CM to share congestion state between DCP flows using TFRC feedback and dynamics. But I wouldn't like to speculate on how you'd share congestion state between a flow using TCP-like feedback and dynamics, and one using TFRC feedback and dynamics. I don't think that the existence or non-existence of a CM greatly affects the design of a protocol like DCP, although of course with would impact the implementation. Cheers, Mark _______________________________________________ dcp mailing list dcp@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcp From dcp-admin@ietf.org Mon Dec 10 01:01:26 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA11585 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 01:01:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA26984; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 01:01:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA26951 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 01:01:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from pimout3-int.prodigy.net (pimout3-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.102]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA11581 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 01:01:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (adsl-64-173-21-57.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.21.57]) by pimout3-int.prodigy.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id fBA61Mx61728 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 01:01:22 -0500 From: Kevin Lai To: dcp@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Evolution/1.0 (Preview Release) Date: 09 Dec 2001 22:00:55 -0800 Message-Id: <1007964056.26485.0.camel@butterfly.mobile.stanford.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [dcp] DCP implementation/simulator? Sender: dcp-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: dcp-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Datagram Control Protocol X-BeenThere: dcp@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there a real or simulated DCP implementation available? I'm building some things on top of a version of TCP that's hacked up to be unreliable and would like a cleaner way of doing things. Thanks, Kevin _______________________________________________ dcp mailing list dcp@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcp From dcp-admin@ietf.org Mon Dec 10 12:48:55 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA06643 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:48:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA00283; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:48:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA00241 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:48:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from coyote.aciri.org (coyote.aciri.org [192.150.187.37]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA06640 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:48:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from coyote.aciri.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by coyote.aciri.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fBAHmkf11018; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 09:48:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kohler@coyote.aciri.org) Message-Id: <200112101748.fBAHmkf11018@coyote.aciri.org> To: Kevin Lai cc: dcp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dcp] DCP implementation/simulator? In-Reply-To: Message from Kevin Lai of "09 Dec 2001 22:00:55 PST." <1007964056.26485.0.camel@butterfly.mobile.stanford.edu> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 09:48:46 -0800 From: Eddie Kohler Sender: dcp-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: dcp-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Datagram Control Protocol X-BeenThere: dcp@ietf.org Hi Kevin, Unfortunately, we don't have a DCP implementation yet. Maybe your hacked-up TCP would be an interesting starting point though... Eddie _______________________________________________ dcp mailing list dcp@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcp From dcp-admin@ietf.org Mon Dec 10 14:26:30 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA09588 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:26:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA05967; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:26:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA05934 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:26:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from pimout1-int.prodigy.net (pimout1-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.77]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA09584 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:26:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (adsl-64-173-21-57.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.21.57]) by pimout1-int.prodigy.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id fBAJQQA335906; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:26:26 -0500 Subject: Re: [dcp] DCP implementation/simulator? From: Kevin Lai To: Eddie Kohler Cc: dcp@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <200112101748.fBAHmkf11018@coyote.aciri.org> References: <200112101748.fBAHmkf11018@coyote.aciri.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Evolution/1.0 (Preview Release) Date: 10 Dec 2001 11:26:02 -0800 Message-Id: <1008012363.26489.4.camel@butterfly.mobile.stanford.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: dcp-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: dcp-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Datagram Control Protocol X-BeenThere: dcp@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eddie, I look forward to an implementation. It's not too likely that the hacked-up TCP I'm using would be useful as the basis for a DCP implementation. Too many things are different: sequence numbers in bytes instead of packets, different connection setup, options format, etc. In addition, the modifications are not particularly robust to lost duplicate acks (if you're interested, we can take the discussion off the mailing list). Kevin On Mon, 2001-12-10 at 09:48, Eddie Kohler wrote: > Hi Kevin, > > Unfortunately, we don't have a DCP implementation yet. Maybe your hacked-up > TCP would be an interesting starting point though... > > Eddie > _______________________________________________ dcp mailing list dcp@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcp From dcp-admin@ietf.org Mon Dec 10 21:41:05 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA17714 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:41:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA22868; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:41:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA22801 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:40:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from laurel.franken.de (postfix@laurel.franken.de [193.175.24.35]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA17669; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:40:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from 65-200-131-12.bellhead.com (65-200-131-12.bellhead.com [12.131.200.65]) by laurel.franken.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93227E9FA; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 03:40:54 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 03:40:34 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v475) Cc: dcp@ietf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org To: kohler@aciri.org From: Michael Tuexen Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <739967CC-EDE0-11D5-A8C1-0030654C1AB6@icn.siemens.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.475) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [dcp] draft-kohler-dcp-01.txt Sender: dcp-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: dcp-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Datagram Control Protocol X-BeenThere: dcp@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Eddie, Dear all, I would like to let you know that Siemens may have pending IPRs which are covered by draft-kohler-dcp-01.txt. Please note the patent statement of Siemens available at http://www.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/SIEMENS-General Best regards Michael Michael.Tuexen@icn.siemens.de _______________________________________________ dcp mailing list dcp@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcp From dcp-admin@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 16:35:57 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA18654 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:35:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA13418; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:35:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA13387 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:35:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from nilla.aciri.org (90-200-131-12.bellhead.com [12.131.200.90]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA18650 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:35:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from nilla.aciri.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nilla.aciri.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fBCL0i108714; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:00:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mjh@nilla.aciri.org) Message-Id: <200112122100.fBCL0i108714@nilla.aciri.org> From: Mark Handley X-Organisation: ACIRI To: Aaron Falk cc: dcp Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:00:44 -0800 Subject: [dcp] Slides from DCP BOF Sender: dcp-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: dcp-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Datagram Control Protocol X-BeenThere: dcp@ietf.org My slides from the DCP BOF are online at: http://www.aciri.org/mjh/tmp/dcp-slc.ps Cheers, Mark _______________________________________________ dcp mailing list dcp@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcp From dcp-admin@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 17:25:39 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA20021 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 17:25:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA18423; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 17:25:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA18389 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 17:25:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from coyote.aciri.org (coyote.aciri.org [192.150.187.37]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA20018 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 17:25:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from coyote.aciri.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by coyote.aciri.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fBCMPVf25565; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:25:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kohler@coyote.aciri.org) Message-Id: <200112122225.fBCMPVf25565@coyote.aciri.org> To: falk@isi.edu cc: dcp@ietf.org Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:25:31 -0800 From: Eddie Kohler Subject: [dcp] more DCP BOF slides Sender: dcp-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: dcp-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Datagram Control Protocol X-BeenThere: dcp@ietf.org Both Mark's and my slides from the DCP BOF are now available from http://www.aciri.org/kohler/dcp/ Particular URLs: http://www.aciri.org/kohler/dcp/mark-slcietf.pdf http://www.aciri.org/kohler/dcp/eddie-slcietf.pdf Eddie _______________________________________________ dcp mailing list dcp@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcp From dcp-admin@ietf.org Mon Dec 17 17:14:04 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA20410 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:14:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA20987; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:13:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA20953 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:13:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA20397; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:13:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from new.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id fBHMDqN20837; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:13:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:37:23 -0800 From: Aaron Falk To: dcp , minutes@ietf.org cc: Allison Mankin , Scott Bradner , Sally Floyd , Mark Handley , Eddie Kohler , Jitendra Padhye Message-ID: <13000000.1008617843@localhost> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.2 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="dcp-meeting-notes.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="dcp-meeting-notes.txt"; size=6821 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [dcp] DCP BoF minutes Sender: dcp-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: dcp-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Datagram Control Protocol X-BeenThere: dcp@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DCP BoF Meeting notes Recorded by Bob Braden on December 11, 2001 at IETF-52, Salt Lake City Utah Minor editing by Aaron Falk The chair Aaron Falk introduced the session (slides) Mark Handley, one of the DCP document authors, made a brief overview presentation on DCP (slides). John Lockley(?): The I-D does not give a motivation for DCP or state the problem being solved, as your talk has just done. Ron ?: The DCP draft lumps too many things together. Suggest that setup, teardown, and DoS security be separated out into separate documents. Handley: The mechanisms in the document are all closely coupled and are natural components of any transport protocol. Mankin (AD): A more complete statement of the problem will be needed. We need a new transport protocol because DCP provides a distinctive service. Handley: Will it be good enough to just extend the document with a writeup of the slides I just presented? Mankin: No, we will need a more specific statement of requirements. John Wroclawski: While I am in general sympathy with DCP, I question a number of specific details. It seems to imply that the protocol is not yet fully cooked. For example: (1) Applying E2E CC (congestion control) at the level of flows is wrong; CC should be applied to sessions. (2) There are firewall issues. There has to be a control protocol somewhere, but it is not clear that DCP is it. (3) Your statement that CC requires state is not obvious. See RTP CC concepts. Joerg: I don't agree that DCP will have a problem with mobility. Handley: I brought up mobility because it was the only issue that we had not considered at the time of the first BOF. ? Gibson: It is hard to tell from the draft what problem is being solved. ? Sipati (Sun): You claimed that unreliable delivery is needed for performance reasons. Do you have traces that prove this need? [In other words, why not just use TCP?] Handley: There are many examples where reliable delivery can result in the receiver getting behind. Real video is a common example; over UDP it recovers with some loss of fidelity, but over TCP it simply stops working when retransmissions cause the sender to get too far behind. Sally Floyd (answer to Wroclawski): The pressing issue is not developing a new E2E CC mechanism; we already have a variety of CC mechanisms. Now we have to figure out how to apply these to unreliable streams. Michael ? (Cisco): U-SCTP was withdrawn. What is overlap of applications between U-SCTP and DCP? SCTP applications are not necessarily light-weight. We don't want the applications of DCP to overlap with U-SCTP applications, so we don't want DCP to be too heavy-weight. ??: (to Handley): Did you mean that if we use DCP, we can do mobility at a higher layer? Handley: (response lost) Wroclawski: The best response to Sally Floyd is to agree. I liked her phrasing of the problem: the goal is to bring our existing CC strategies to bear on this new class of applications. But I still suggest that DCP needs more thinking; it is not fully cooked. Eddie Kohler: We have been baking for awhile. ??: The name "DCP" is unfortunate because it is hard to distinguish it from "TCP". Eddie Kohler, another DCP author, presented a brief DCP overview (slides) Randy Stewart: The CCid=1 case is a hole in the protocol and should be removed. The receiver can use it to simply turn off CC. Kohler: That's a fair comment. Randy Stewart: With respect to DoS protection, you don't require an exchange of cookies. Why not simply force a 4WHS? Kohler: We wanted to allow servers to optionally shorten the hand shake, for example when they are not feeling stressed by an attack. Handley: The server does not really need to send a cookie. It is required to support it, but server can use it or not. Wroclawski: "Server" may be a misleading term here. Kohler: DCP uses the client/server concept only at the very beginning and at the very end of an interaction. ???: For mobility, a nonce can serve as the invariant end point. It makes both mobility and multihoming infinitely simpler. DISCUSSION OF CHARTER Casner: Using DCP for RTP would be reasonable, since RTP makes minimal demands on the underlying layer. However, you will need a new version of RT; the current RTP over DCP is not sensible. For example: o Might share sequence numbers between RTP' and DCP. Must then share knowledge of sequence numbers between the layers. o RTCP feedback should be integrated into DCP in some way. o Time needs serious thought. Do people want CC for RTP? Many RTP apps don't care about CC, but the network cares. Apps won't care until the network forces them to. We must manage motivation. Suggests two different protocols, one for unicast and one for multicast. ??: Another need is to drop stale data -- a limited persistence mode. Mankin: Can handle this in the API without concern for CC. Wroclawski: three points: (1) Need functional validation -- need a statement of high-level goals. (2) Should include necessary functions but don't want to presuppose solution. (3) Thinking about API should not be deferred until protocol protocol is designed. The mode of interaction should be defined early. Falk: (2) and (3) are understood. Floyd: We were thinking about the applications, not about a TCP retrofit. Casner (to Mankin): The reluctance is partly because media have limited elasticity. Mankin: That is why we got rid of U-SCTP. A WG should think about CC for layered codecs. Handley (to Wroclawski): We could think of DCP as a sub-layer of the transport layer. There may be many APIs. Wroclawski: I agree. Falk: Does a WG need to consider key exchange protocols? Mankin: This is very speculative. With JFK, if UDP packets grow larger than MTU, fragmentation results. But you don't want to use TCP because of security concerns. Mankin: There is an IPR issue: Siemens and Cisco may have IPR claims to related ideas. The IPR claims are with respect to mobility without changing IP address. SENSING CONSENSUS A show of hands indicated that the group present felt 1) a problem statement should be developed and 2) the work is worthwhile and a working group should be chartered. CHAIR'S POSTSCRIPT The feedback from the BoF and the mail list will become input for a modified working group charter. Working group charters require approval from the IESG. The draft authors and I will work with the Transport Area Directors to craft a charter that will meet with the IESG's approval. I will keep the mailing list informed as to the progression of our request to create a working group. Comments on these minutes, the DCP protocol or draft charter are continue to be welcome at dcp@ietf.org. _______________________________________________ dcp mailing list dcp@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcp From dcp-admin@ietf.org Tue Dec 18 02:23:10 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA15118 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 02:23:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA12927; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 02:23:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA12892 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 02:23:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mgw-x2.nokia.com (mgw-x2.nokia.com [131.228.20.22]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA15115 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 02:23:04 -0500 (EST) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from esvir03nok.nokia.com (esvir03nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.35]) by mgw-x2.nokia.com (Switch-2.1.0/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id fBI7Nrg24557 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:23:53 +0200 (EET) Received: from esebh24nok.ntc.nokia.com (unverified) by esvir03nok.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:22:06 +0200 Received: by esebh24nok with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.78) id ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:22:06 +0200 Message-ID: <0C1353ABB1DEB74DB067ADFF749C4EEF5D92F1@esebe004.NOE.Nokia.com> To: falk@ISI.EDU, dcp@ietf.org Subject: RE: [dcp] DCP BoF minutes Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:22:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.78) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: dcp-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: dcp-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Datagram Control Protocol X-BeenThere: dcp@ietf.org Hi Aaron, Just a small comment: > John Lockley(?): The I-D does not give a motivation for DCP or state > the problem being solved, as your talk has just done. Spelling is: John Loughney Thanks! John _______________________________________________ dcp mailing list dcp@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcp From dcp-admin@ietf.org Tue Dec 18 08:15:49 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA18551 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:15:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA22359; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:14:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA22326 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:14:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from htt-consult.com (homebase.htt-consult.com [65.84.78.210]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA18534; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:14:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from portege3490.htt-consult.com ([65.84.78.214]) by htt-consult.com ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:11:52 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011218061131.025b1da0@localhost> X-Sender: rgm-ietf@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 06:11:46 -0500 To: Aaron Falk , dcp , minutes@ietf.org From: Robert Moskowitz Subject: Re: [dcp] DCP BoF minutes Cc: Allison Mankin , Scott Bradner , Sally Floyd , Mark Handley , Eddie Kohler , Jitendra Padhye In-Reply-To: <13000000.1008617843@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: dcp-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: dcp-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Datagram Control Protocol X-BeenThere: dcp@ietf.org At 11:37 AM 12/17/2001 -0800, Aaron Falk wrote: ???: For mobility, a nonce can serve as the invariant end point. It makes both mobility and multihoming infinitely simpler. Moskowitz _______________________________________________ dcp mailing list dcp@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcp