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From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
To: "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: What we need to get a BOF in November
Thread-Index: AQHP0gN81FrmYFS+xEKVRuV+Xitw8A==
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 23:11:02 +0000
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Subject: [Detnet] What we need to get a BOF in November
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From: "George Swallow (swallow)" <swallow@cisco.com>
To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>, "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] What we need to get a BOF in November
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Norm -

The intro the the document should touch upon the applications with a forwar=
d pointer.  It is important that the problems statement be a succinct as po=
ssible.

I'm not clear on what sections 4 and 5 are about.  Do any of the things in =
section 4 have anything to do with bridges and routers working together?

Section 5 (and perhaps section 4 =96 if these are technical solutions to th=
e problem) can be used to offer a feel for what the point of all this is.  =
But the IETF is not going to standardize any specific behavior of any devic=
e internally.  The IETF (as far as specification goes defines "what goes on=
 the wire", i.e.  the protocols between routers and recently the interactio=
ns of controllers with routers.  It will be controversial enough just to ta=
lk about bridges.

Note:  I think we can actually technically avoid direct interactions betwee=
n routers by having the routers talk only to each other and having the rout=
er's chosen interface acting as a host on the bridged network.
Obviously this can also be done with controllers.

Sections 6, 7, 8 look fine!

It is fine to have separate presentations on the stuff in sections 4 and 5,=
 but I would not dwell on these or go into short-comings other that how the=
y relate to setting things up.  What I would emphasize is what's done peer =
to peer and what's done controller to device.

George

From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com<mailto:nfinn@cisco.com>>
Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 7:11 PM
To: "detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>" <detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detne=
t@ietf.org>>
Subject: [Detnet] What we need to get a BOF in November

The deadline for application for a BOF is Sept 26.  At the IEEE meeting, la=
st week, we talked about several things we might do for the BOF, including:

Pick one or two leaders.
Write some drafts.

In particular, it was felt we need a Problem Statement draft.  Here is a pr=
oposed outline.  Comments/suggestions welcome:

1. Goal of document
  - Describe the Deterministic Networking problem statement, with an eye to=
 a BOF and consequent working group.
2. Fundamental problem statement
  Given:
   * A moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 network composed of bridges, =
routers, and end stations;
   * One or more =93critical flows,=94 consisting of unicast or multicast d=
ata flows;
   =95 The willingness of a network administrator and/or application progra=
ms to take steps to allocate network resources before transmitting a critic=
al data flow (and to be told, =93no=94 if the resources are not available);=
 and
   * Suitable buffering, queuing, shaping, and scheduling facilities in the=
 network nodes;
   Provide to those flows a Quality of Service that has one or more of the =
following characteristics:
   * Guaranteed minimum and maximum end-to-end latency; and
   * Arbitrarily low packet loss probability;
   With as few restrictions as possible with regard to:
   * Bandwidth of critical flows (must support critical flows totaling >=3D=
 75% of links=92 bandwidth);
   * Bandwidth of non-critical flows (all bandwidth unused by critical flow=
s must be available to best-effort traffic);
   * Any particular choice of L2 or L3 topology control or routing protocol=
; or
   * Any specific transport protocol.
3. Demonstrated user communitites
   =95 Audio and video studios
   * Automobiles and other vehicles
   * Factory floor, machinery control, process control
4. Demonstrated solutions and their limitations
   * IEC 62439-3 HSR/PRP
   * IEEE 802.1BA Audio Video Bridging
   * IEEE 802.1 Time-Sensitive Networking standards in progress
5. Potential avenues for exploration: Zero congestion loss
   * 802.1 credit-based shaper
   * 802.1 Cyclical Queuing and Forwarding
   * 802.1 Time-scheduled queues
   * Urgency Based Shaping
6. Potential avenues for exploration: Multiple paths
   * Various forms of Seamless Redundancy
   * The serial number problem: HSR/PRP vs. 802.1 vs Pseudowires vs various=
 transport protocols
7. Potential avenues for exploration: data plane and packet identification
   * {VLAN, Destination MAC address}
   * IP 5-tuple
   * Other
8. Potential avenues for exploration: Control paradigms
   * Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP)
   * Central controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE)
   * Connection to Operations (Application) Controllers
   * Mixed scenarios

=97 Norm

--_000_D03E52F4275EDswallowciscocom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-ID: <57EC14AA918C644490EF1DF7BE7CAAA9@emea.cisco.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif; ">
<div>Norm -</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The intro the the document should touch upon the applications with a f=
orward pointer. &nbsp;It is important that the problems statement be a succ=
inct as possible.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm not clear on what sections 4 and 5 are about. &nbsp;Do any of the =
things in section 4 have anything to do with bridges and routers working to=
gether?&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Section 5 (and perhaps section 4 =96 if these are technical solutions =
to the problem) can be used to offer a feel for what the point of all this =
is. &nbsp;But the IETF is not going to standardize any specific behavior of=
 any device internally. &nbsp;The IETF (as far
 as specification goes defines &quot;what goes on the wire&quot;, i.e. &nbs=
p;the protocols between routers and recently the interactions of controller=
s with routers. &nbsp;It will be controversial enough just to talk about br=
idges.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Note: &nbsp;I think we can actually technically avoid direct interacti=
ons between routers by having the routers talk only to each other and havin=
g the router's chosen interface acting as a host on the bridged network.</d=
iv>
<div>Obviously this can also be done with controllers. &nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sections 6, 7, 8 look fine! &nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>It is fine to have separate presentations on the stuff in sections 4 a=
nd 5, but I would not dwell on these or go into short-comings other that ho=
w they relate to setting things up. &nbsp;What I would emphasize is what's =
done peer to peer and what's done controller
 to device.</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>George</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>&quot;Norman Finn (nfinn)&quo=
t; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nfinn@cisco.com">nfinn@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, September 16, 2014 7=
:11 PM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@=
ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">=
detnet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>[Detnet] What we need to g=
et a BOF in November<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14p=
x; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div>The deadline for application for a BOF is Sept 26. &nbsp;At the IEEE m=
eeting, last week, we talked about several things we might do for the BOF, =
including:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Pick one or two leaders.</div>
<div>Write some drafts.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In particular, it was felt we need a Problem Statement draft. &nbsp;He=
re is a proposed outline. &nbsp;Comments/suggestions welcome:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1. Goal of document</div>
<div>&nbsp; - Describe the Deterministic Networking problem statement, with=
 an eye to a BOF and consequent working group.</div>
<div>2. Fundamental problem statement</div>
<div>&nbsp; Given:</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* A moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 network compos=
ed of bridges, routers, and end stations;</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* One or more =93critical flows,=94 consisting of unicast=
 or multicast data flows;</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;=95 The willingness of a network administrator and/or app=
lication programs to take steps to allocate network resources before transm=
itting a critical data flow (and to be told, =93no=94 if the resources are =
not available); and</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* Suitable buffering, queuing, shaping, and scheduling fa=
cilities in the network nodes;</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;Provide to those flows a Quality of Service that has one =
or more of the following characteristics:</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* Guaranteed minimum and maximum end-to-end latency; and<=
/div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* Arbitrarily low packet loss probability;</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;With as few restrictions as possible with regard to:</div=
>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* Bandwidth of critical flows (must support critical flow=
s totaling &gt;=3D 75% of links=92 bandwidth);</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* Bandwidth of non-critical flows (all bandwidth unused b=
y critical flows must be available to best-effort traffic);</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* Any particular choice of L2 or L3 topology control or r=
outing protocol; or</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* Any specific transport protocol.</div>
<div>3. Demonstrated user communitites</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;=95 Audio and video studios</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* Automobiles and other vehicles</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* Factory floor, machinery control, process control</div>
<div>4. Demonstrated solutions and their limitations</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* IEC 62439-3 HSR/PRP</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* IEEE 802.1BA Audio Video Bridging</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* IEEE 802.1 Time-Sensitive Networking standards in progr=
ess</div>
<div>5. Potential avenues for exploration: Zero congestion loss</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* 802.1 credit-based shaper</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* 802.1 Cyclical Queuing and Forwarding</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* 802.1 Time-scheduled queues</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* Urgency Based Shaping</div>
<div>6. Potential avenues for exploration: Multiple paths</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* Various forms of Seamless Redundancy</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* The serial number problem: HSR/PRP vs. 802.1 vs Pseudow=
ires vs various transport protocols</div>
<div>7. Potential avenues for exploration: data plane and packet identifica=
tion</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* {VLAN, Destination MAC address}</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* IP 5-tuple</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* Other</div>
<div>8. Potential avenues for exploration: Control paradigms</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP=
)</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* Central controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE)</div=
>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* Connection to Operations (Application) Controllers</div=
>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;* Mixed scenarios</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=97 Norm</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
</body>
</html>

--_000_D03E52F4275EDswallowciscocom_--


From nobody Wed Sep 17 07:13:00 2014
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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 10:12:53 -0400
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From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] What we need to get a BOF in November
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Norm,

Have you asked for an IAB BOF Shepherd?   I would recommend doing so.
A shepherd would be able to help you figure out how to scope the desired
BOF,
provide comments, and be able to answer questions when the BOF proposal is
discussed.  There is extremely limited time before the BOF requests are
discussed.

Regards,
Alia

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Norman Finn (nfinn) <nfinn@cisco.com>
wrote:

>  The deadline for application for a BOF is Sept 26.  At the IEEE meeting,
> last week, we talked about several things we might do for the BOF,
> including:
>
>  Pick one or two leaders.
> Write some drafts.
>
>  In particular, it was felt we need a Problem Statement draft.  Here is a
> proposed outline.  Comments/suggestions welcome:
>
>  1. Goal of document
>   - Describe the Deterministic Networking problem statement, with an eye
> to a BOF and consequent working group.
> 2. Fundamental problem statement
>   Given:
>    * A moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 network composed of bridges=
,
> routers, and end stations;
>    * One or more =E2=80=9Ccritical flows,=E2=80=9D consisting of unicast =
or multicast data
> flows;
>    =E2=80=A2 The willingness of a network administrator and/or applicatio=
n
> programs to take steps to allocate network resources before transmitting =
a
> critical data flow (and to be told, =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D if the resources=
 are not
> available); and
>    * Suitable buffering, queuing, shaping, and scheduling facilities in
> the network nodes;
>    Provide to those flows a Quality of Service that has one or more of th=
e
> following characteristics:
>    * Guaranteed minimum and maximum end-to-end latency; and
>    * Arbitrarily low packet loss probability;
>    With as few restrictions as possible with regard to:
>    * Bandwidth of critical flows (must support critical flows totaling >=
=3D
> 75% of links=E2=80=99 bandwidth);
>    * Bandwidth of non-critical flows (all bandwidth unused by critical
> flows must be available to best-effort traffic);
>    * Any particular choice of L2 or L3 topology control or routing
> protocol; or
>    * Any specific transport protocol.
> 3. Demonstrated user communitites
>    =E2=80=A2 Audio and video studios
>    * Automobiles and other vehicles
>    * Factory floor, machinery control, process control
> 4. Demonstrated solutions and their limitations
>    * IEC 62439-3 HSR/PRP
>    * IEEE 802.1BA Audio Video Bridging
>    * IEEE 802.1 Time-Sensitive Networking standards in progress
> 5. Potential avenues for exploration: Zero congestion loss
>    * 802.1 credit-based shaper
>    * 802.1 Cyclical Queuing and Forwarding
>    * 802.1 Time-scheduled queues
>    * Urgency Based Shaping
> 6. Potential avenues for exploration: Multiple paths
>    * Various forms of Seamless Redundancy
>    * The serial number problem: HSR/PRP vs. 802.1 vs Pseudowires vs
> various transport protocols
> 7. Potential avenues for exploration: data plane and packet identificatio=
n
>    * {VLAN, Destination MAC address}
>    * IP 5-tuple
>    * Other
> 8. Potential avenues for exploration: Control paradigms
>    * Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP)
>    * Central controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE)
>    * Connection to Operations (Application) Controllers
>    * Mixed scenarios
>
>  =E2=80=94 Norm
>
> _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
>
>

--14dae9d7c884c48e8c05034376c2
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Norm,<div><br></div><div>Have you asked for an IAB BOF She=
pherd? =C2=A0 I would recommend doing so. =C2=A0</div><div>A shepherd would=
 be able to help you figure out how to scope the desired BOF,</div><div>pro=
vide comments, and be able to answer questions when the BOF proposal is</di=
v><div>discussed. =C2=A0There is extremely limited time before the BOF requ=
ests are discussed.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Alia</div><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep =
16, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Norman Finn (nfinn) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:nfinn@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">nfinn@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wro=
te:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size=
:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<div>The deadline for application for a BOF is Sept 26. =C2=A0At the IEEE m=
eeting, last week, we talked about several things we might do for the BOF, =
including:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Pick one or two leaders.</div>
<div>Write some drafts.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In particular, it was felt we need a Problem Statement draft. =C2=A0He=
re is a proposed outline. =C2=A0Comments/suggestions welcome:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1. Goal of document</div>
<div>=C2=A0 - Describe the Deterministic Networking problem statement, with=
 an eye to a BOF and consequent working group.</div>
<div>2. Fundamental problem statement</div>
<div>=C2=A0 Given:</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* A moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 network compos=
ed of bridges, routers, and end stations;</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* One or more =E2=80=9Ccritical flows,=E2=80=9D consistin=
g of unicast or multicast data flows;</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 The willingness of a network administrator and/=
or application programs to take steps to allocate network resources before =
transmitting a critical data flow (and to be told, =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D if =
the resources are not available); and</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Suitable buffering, queuing, shaping, and scheduling fa=
cilities in the network nodes;</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Provide to those flows a Quality of Service that has one =
or more of the following characteristics:</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Guaranteed minimum and maximum end-to-end latency; and<=
/div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Arbitrarily low packet loss probability;</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0With as few restrictions as possible with regard to:</div=
>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Bandwidth of critical flows (must support critical flow=
s totaling &gt;=3D 75% of links=E2=80=99 bandwidth);</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Bandwidth of non-critical flows (all bandwidth unused b=
y critical flows must be available to best-effort traffic);</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Any particular choice of L2 or L3 topology control or r=
outing protocol; or</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Any specific transport protocol.</div>
<div>3. Demonstrated user communitites</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 Audio and video studios</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Automobiles and other vehicles</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Factory floor, machinery control, process control</div>
<div>4. Demonstrated solutions and their limitations</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* IEC 62439-3 HSR/PRP</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* IEEE 802.1BA Audio Video Bridging</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* IEEE 802.1 Time-Sensitive Networking standards in progr=
ess</div>
<div>5. Potential avenues for exploration: Zero congestion loss</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* 802.1 credit-based shaper</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* 802.1 Cyclical Queuing and Forwarding</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* 802.1 Time-scheduled queues</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Urgency Based Shaping</div>
<div>6. Potential avenues for exploration: Multiple paths</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Various forms of Seamless Redundancy</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* The serial number problem: HSR/PRP vs. 802.1 vs Pseudow=
ires vs various transport protocols</div>
<div>7. Potential avenues for exploration: data plane and packet identifica=
tion</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* {VLAN, Destination MAC address}</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* IP 5-tuple</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Other</div>
<div>8. Potential avenues for exploration: Control paradigms</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP=
)</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Central controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE)</div=
>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Connection to Operations (Application) Controllers</div=
>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Mixed scenarios</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=E2=80=94 Norm</div>
</div>

<br>_______________________________________________<br>
detnet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--14dae9d7c884c48e8c05034376c2--


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From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
To: "George Swallow (swallow)" <swallow@cisco.com>, "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] What we need to get a BOF in November
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From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
To: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] What we need to get a BOF in November
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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:08:38 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] What we need to get a BOF in November
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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 15:11:48 -0400
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From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] What we need to get a BOF in November
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Norm,

Take a read through
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/WikiStart
which was recently updated with this information.

Basically - you ask a relevant AD.

Alia

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 3:08 PM, Norman Finn (nfinn) <nfinn@cisco.com>
wrote:

>  From whom do I acquire an IAB BOF Shepherd?  I see document shepherds on
> the IETF site, but =E2=80=A6
>
>  =E2=80=94 Norm
>
>   From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
> Date: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 at 07:12 AM
> To: Norman Finn <nfinn@cisco.com>
> Cc: "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Detnet] What we need to get a BOF in November
>
>   Norm,
>
>  Have you asked for an IAB BOF Shepherd?   I would recommend doing so.
> A shepherd would be able to help you figure out how to scope the desired
> BOF,
> provide comments, and be able to answer questions when the BOF proposal i=
s
> discussed.  There is extremely limited time before the BOF requests are
> discussed.
>
>  Regards,
> Alia
>
> On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Norman Finn (nfinn) <nfinn@cisco.com>
> wrote:
>
>>  The deadline for application for a BOF is Sept 26.  At the IEEE
>> meeting, last week, we talked about several things we might do for the B=
OF,
>> including:
>>
>>  Pick one or two leaders.
>> Write some drafts.
>>
>>  In particular, it was felt we need a Problem Statement draft.  Here is
>> a proposed outline.  Comments/suggestions welcome:
>>
>>  1. Goal of document
>>   - Describe the Deterministic Networking problem statement, with an eye
>> to a BOF and consequent working group.
>> 2. Fundamental problem statement
>>   Given:
>>    * A moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 network composed of
>> bridges, routers, and end stations;
>>    * One or more =E2=80=9Ccritical flows,=E2=80=9D consisting of unicast=
 or multicast
>> data flows;
>>    =E2=80=A2 The willingness of a network administrator and/or applicati=
on
>> programs to take steps to allocate network resources before transmitting=
 a
>> critical data flow (and to be told, =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D if the resource=
s are not
>> available); and
>>    * Suitable buffering, queuing, shaping, and scheduling facilities in
>> the network nodes;
>>    Provide to those flows a Quality of Service that has one or more of
>> the following characteristics:
>>    * Guaranteed minimum and maximum end-to-end latency; and
>>    * Arbitrarily low packet loss probability;
>>    With as few restrictions as possible with regard to:
>>    * Bandwidth of critical flows (must support critical flows totaling >=
=3D
>> 75% of links=E2=80=99 bandwidth);
>>    * Bandwidth of non-critical flows (all bandwidth unused by critical
>> flows must be available to best-effort traffic);
>>    * Any particular choice of L2 or L3 topology control or routing
>> protocol; or
>>    * Any specific transport protocol.
>> 3. Demonstrated user communitites
>>    =E2=80=A2 Audio and video studios
>>    * Automobiles and other vehicles
>>    * Factory floor, machinery control, process control
>> 4. Demonstrated solutions and their limitations
>>    * IEC 62439-3 HSR/PRP
>>    * IEEE 802.1BA Audio Video Bridging
>>    * IEEE 802.1 Time-Sensitive Networking standards in progress
>> 5. Potential avenues for exploration: Zero congestion loss
>>    * 802.1 credit-based shaper
>>    * 802.1 Cyclical Queuing and Forwarding
>>    * 802.1 Time-scheduled queues
>>    * Urgency Based Shaping
>> 6. Potential avenues for exploration: Multiple paths
>>    * Various forms of Seamless Redundancy
>>    * The serial number problem: HSR/PRP vs. 802.1 vs Pseudowires vs
>> various transport protocols
>> 7. Potential avenues for exploration: data plane and packet identificati=
on
>>    * {VLAN, Destination MAC address}
>>    * IP 5-tuple
>>    * Other
>> 8. Potential avenues for exploration: Control paradigms
>>    * Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP)
>>    * Central controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE)
>>    * Connection to Operations (Application) Controllers
>>    * Mixed scenarios
>>
>>  =E2=80=94 Norm
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> detnet mailing list
>> detnet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
>>
>>
>

--20cf303b3a23c6985b050347a3d9
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Norm,<div><br></div><div>Take a read through=C2=A0</div><d=
iv><a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/WikiStart">http://tr=
ac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/WikiStart</a><br></div><div>which was recen=
tly updated with this information.</div><div><br></div><div>Basically - you=
 ask a relevant AD.</div><div><br></div><div>Alia</div></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 3:08 PM=
, Norman Finn (nfinn) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nfinn@cisco.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">nfinn@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div>From whom do I acquire an IAB BOF Shepherd? =C2=A0I see document sheph=
erds on the IETF site, but =E2=80=A6</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=E2=80=94 Norm</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:blac=
k;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADD=
ING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:me=
dium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Alia Atlas &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:akatlas@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">akatlas@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Wednesday, September 17, 2014=
 at 07:12 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Norman Finn &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:nfinn@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">nfinn@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">detnet@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:detnet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">detnet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span class=3D""=
><br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Detnet] What we need =
to get a BOF in November<br>
</span></div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0=
 0 5">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Norm,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Have you asked for an IAB BOF Shepherd? =C2=A0 I would recommend doing=
 so. =C2=A0</div>
<div>A shepherd would be able to help you figure out how to scope the desir=
ed BOF,</div>
<div>provide comments, and be able to answer questions when the BOF proposa=
l is</div>
<div>discussed. =C2=A0There is extremely limited time before the BOF reques=
ts are discussed.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Alia</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Norman Finn (nf=
inn) <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nfinn@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">nfinn@cisco.com</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size=
:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<div>The deadline for application for a BOF is Sept 26. =C2=A0At the IEEE m=
eeting, last week, we talked about several things we might do for the BOF, =
including:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Pick one or two leaders.</div>
<div>Write some drafts.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In particular, it was felt we need a Problem Statement draft. =C2=A0He=
re is a proposed outline. =C2=A0Comments/suggestions welcome:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1. Goal of document</div>
<div>=C2=A0 - Describe the Deterministic Networking problem statement, with=
 an eye to a BOF and consequent working group.</div>
<div>2. Fundamental problem statement</div>
<div>=C2=A0 Given:</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* A moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 network compos=
ed of bridges, routers, and end stations;</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* One or more =E2=80=9Ccritical flows,=E2=80=9D consistin=
g of unicast or multicast data flows;</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 The willingness of a network administrator and/=
or application programs to take steps to allocate network resources before =
transmitting a critical data flow (and to be told, =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D if =
the resources are not available); and</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Suitable buffering, queuing, shaping, and scheduling fa=
cilities in the network nodes;</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Provide to those flows a Quality of Service that has one =
or more of the following characteristics:</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Guaranteed minimum and maximum end-to-end latency; and<=
/div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Arbitrarily low packet loss probability;</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0With as few restrictions as possible with regard to:</div=
>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Bandwidth of critical flows (must support critical flow=
s totaling &gt;=3D 75% of links=E2=80=99 bandwidth);</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Bandwidth of non-critical flows (all bandwidth unused b=
y critical flows must be available to best-effort traffic);</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Any particular choice of L2 or L3 topology control or r=
outing protocol; or</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Any specific transport protocol.</div>
<div>3. Demonstrated user communitites</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 Audio and video studios</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Automobiles and other vehicles</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Factory floor, machinery control, process control</div>
<div>4. Demonstrated solutions and their limitations</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* IEC 62439-3 HSR/PRP</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* IEEE 802.1BA Audio Video Bridging</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* IEEE 802.1 Time-Sensitive Networking standards in progr=
ess</div>
<div>5. Potential avenues for exploration: Zero congestion loss</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* 802.1 credit-based shaper</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* 802.1 Cyclical Queuing and Forwarding</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* 802.1 Time-scheduled queues</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Urgency Based Shaping</div>
<div>6. Potential avenues for exploration: Multiple paths</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Various forms of Seamless Redundancy</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* The serial number problem: HSR/PRP vs. 802.1 vs Pseudow=
ires vs various transport protocols</div>
<div>7. Potential avenues for exploration: data plane and packet identifica=
tion</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* {VLAN, Destination MAC address}</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* IP 5-tuple</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Other</div>
<div>8. Potential avenues for exploration: Control paradigms</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP=
)</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Central controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE)</div=
>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Connection to Operations (Application) Controllers</div=
>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Mixed scenarios</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=E2=80=94 Norm</div>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
detnet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">detnet@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div></span>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--20cf303b3a23c6985b050347a3d9--


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--_000_EB9B93801780FD4CA165E0FBCB3C3E672B166756SJEXCHMB09corpa_--


From nobody Wed Sep 17 16:06:13 2014
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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com>
To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Chairs for DetNet BOF
Thread-Index: AQHP0sv3kj3gDliH3UGIKjac30cZwg==
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 23:06:09 +0000
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Norm,

We do not really need to care about WG chairs yet. BoF chairs that we need =
now can be different persons than WG chairs later on.=20

Jouni

--=20
Jouni Korhonen
Broadcom

(Sent from my mobile..)

> "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com> kirjoitti 18.9.2014 kello 2.51:
>=20
> The other discussion we need is about BOF chairs, looking forward to WG
> chairs.  Pascal Thubert has volunteered, and other names have been
> mentioned, as well.  Any thoughts?  Any volunteers?
>=20
> =97 Norm
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet


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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com>
To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Which Area for DetNet?
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Norm,

My preference would be routing area. Just that tictoc is under internet are=
a does not mean detnet needs to be there. Then again I would prefer transpo=
rt area over rtai, since transport protocols and queuing are done in transp=
ort.=20

Jouni

--=20
Jouni Korhonen
Broadcom

(Sent from my mobile..)

> "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com> kirjoitti 18.9.2014 kello 2.51:
>=20
> Let=92s get this important discussion going.  In which Area should DetNet
> go?  I heard a number of suggestions in Toronto, but let=92s get them out=
 on
> the list.  RTAI and Internet are the two that have been mentioned to me
> most often.  Any others?  Any strong opinions?
>=20
> =97 Norm
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet


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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Detnet] What we need to get a BOF in November
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] What we need to get a BOF in November
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From nobody Wed Sep 17 16:35:35 2014
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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 18:35:31 -0500
To: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com>
From: James Polk <jmpolk@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] Which Area for DetNet?
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Unofficially, IMO, this is a transport area subject.

You have asked for a new EF codepoint - that's transport.
You deal with congestion control issues - that's transport.

At 06:12 PM 9/17/2014, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
>Norm,
>
>My preference would be routing area. Just that=20
>tictoc is under internet area does not mean=20
>detnet needs to be there. Then again I would=20
>prefer transport area over rtai, since transport=20
>protocols and queuing are done in transport.
>
>Jouni
>
>--
>Jouni Korhonen
>Broadcom
>
>(Sent from my mobile..)
>
> > "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com> kirjoitti 18.9.2014 kello 2.51:
> >
> > Let=92s get this important discussion going.  In which Area should=
 DetNet
> > go?  I heard a number of suggestions in Toronto, but let=92s get them=
 out on
> > the list.  RTAI and Internet are the two that have been mentioned to me
> > most often.  Any others?  Any strong opinions?
> >
> > =97 Norm
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > detnet mailing list
> > detnet@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
>
>_______________________________________________
>detnet mailing list
>detnet@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet


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From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
To: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] What we need to get a BOF in November
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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] What we need to get a BOF in November
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] What we need to get a BOF in November
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From nobody Wed Sep 17 23:50:14 2014
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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "James Polk (jmpolk)" <jmpolk@cisco.com>, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Which Area for DetNet?
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] Which Area for DetNet?
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Yes, Jim,

clearly the detnet work will push problems to transport area. But the work =
is between L2 and L3 as opposed to L4.

I understand that PCE is in Routing Area, which tends to indicate that the =
work could happen there. But it has a lot to with forwarding and signaling =
and little to do with routing.

My preferred bet would be Internet Area, and Routing would be second. Ultim=
ately that is not our decision but that of the IESG after the BoF is succes=
sful.
So there is not emergency there, what we really need is an AD who is sensit=
ive to the issues at hand and willing to help us carry the work out.

I see that Alia stepped in the discussion. So maybe that problem is already=
 solved and we do not know it?

Cheers,

Pascal


> -----Original Message-----
> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of James Polk
> (jmpolk)
> Sent: jeudi 18 septembre 2014 01:36
> To: Jouni Korhonen
> Cc: detnet@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Detnet] Which Area for DetNet?
>=20
> Unofficially, IMO, this is a transport area subject.
>=20
> You have asked for a new EF codepoint - that's transport.
> You deal with congestion control issues - that's transport.
>=20
> At 06:12 PM 9/17/2014, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
> >Norm,
> >
> >My preference would be routing area. Just that tictoc is under internet
> >area does not mean detnet needs to be there. Then again I would prefer
> >transport area over rtai, since transport protocols and queuing are
> >done in transport.
> >
> >Jouni
> >
> >--
> >Jouni Korhonen
> >Broadcom
> >
> >(Sent from my mobile..)
> >
> > > "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com> kirjoitti 18.9.2014 kello 2.5=
1:
> > >
> > > Let's get this important discussion going.  In which Area should
> > > DetNet go?  I heard a number of suggestions in Toronto, but let's
> > > get them out on the list.  RTAI and Internet are the two that have
> > > been mentioned to me most often.  Any others?  Any strong opinions?
> > >
> > > - Norm
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > detnet mailing list
> > > detnet@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >detnet mailing list
> >detnet@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet


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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] What we need to get a BOF in November
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From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] What we need to get a BOF in November
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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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Subject: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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Hello Norm:

What do you think of :

Background text

Explaining the use cases and the work at IEEE, I'm sure you have text?
That would be 3-4 paragraphs, introducing the concepts behind zero congesti=
on loss and PRP

WG description


The Working Group will focus on enabling  end-to-end path with Deterministi=
c Properties and High Reliability.



The extent of the problem space for the WG includes multihop paths which in=
clude Layer-2 Bridging and Layer-3 routing though only Layer-3 operations a=
re specific.

A focus will be on maintaining consistency and compatibility with the concu=
rrent work that is happening at IEEE for the Layer-2 operations.



Initially, the WG will limit its scope to a Campus or a Small/Home office N=
etwork and excludes Wide Area Networks.



The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Inte=
rnet, Transport, Operations and Management, Routing and Security areas.


Work Items




- Deliverables for the first round could be/include :



  * an analysis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 drafts=
 which would include process control, factory automation, planes and video =
studios)

  * a status of the work at IEEE with the general problem statement as perc=
eived there, and the directions that is being taken. Potential solutions wi=
ll be explored.

  * and a requirement draft for the definition of a PhB at the transport ar=
ea.

  ->  all informational track



  * a generic format for flow identification that works across layers.

  * a study of scoping, including the definition of Realm-Local scope and A=
dmin-Local scope (pre RFC 7346) where for instance the deterministic techno=
logy is consistent over a Realm and achievable across technologies and laye=
rs over an Admin local scope

  -> those would be standard track

Milstones

TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after chartering

What do you think?

Pascal

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">Hello Norm:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What do you think of&nbsp;:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm">Background text <o=
:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Explaining the use cases and the work at IEEE, I&#82=
17;m sure you have text?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That would be 3-4 paragraphs, introducing the concep=
ts behind zero congestion loss and PRP<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm">WG description<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">The Working Group will focus on enabling &nbsp;en=
d-to-end path with Deterministic Properties and High Reliability.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">The extent of the problem space for the WG includ=
es multihop paths which include Layer-2 Bridging and Layer-3 routing though=
 only Layer-3 operations are specific.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">A focus will be on maintaining consistency and co=
mpatibility with the concurrent work that is happening at IEEE for the Laye=
r-2 operations.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Initially, the WG will limit its scope to a Campu=
s or a Small/Home office Network and excludes Wide Area Networks.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">The WG will interface with other appropriate grou=
ps in the IETF in the Internet, Transport, Operations and Management, Routi=
ng and Security areas.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm">Work Items<o:p></o=
:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">- Deliverables for the first round could be/inclu=
de :<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; * an analysis of the requirements in a num=
ber of environments (3-4 drafts which would include process control, factor=
y automation, planes and video studios)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; * a status of the work at IEEE with the ge=
neral problem statement as perceived there, and the directions that is bein=
g taken. Potential solutions will be explored.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; * and a requirement draft for the definiti=
on of a PhB at the transport area.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; -&gt;&nbsp; all informational track <o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; * a generic format for flow identification=
 that works across layers.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;* a study of scoping, including the d=
efinition of Realm-Local scope and Admin-Local scope (pre RFC 7346) where f=
or instance the deterministic technology is consistent over a Realm and ach=
ievable across technologies and layers over
 an Admin local scope<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; -&gt; those would be standard track<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm">Milstones<o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after char=
tering<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What do you think?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Pascal<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DC9CB1xmbrcdx01ciscoc_--


From nobody Thu Sep 18 05:51:23 2014
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References: <D03F261E.31E38%nfinn@cisco.com> <B692921C-D813-4A96-B8C7-C89BB7415CDE@broadcom.com> <201409172335.s8HNZW6F016668@rcdn-core-2.cisco.com> <E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DC98F7@xmb-rcd-x01.cisco.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 08:51:16 -0400
Message-ID: <CAG4d1rcWTyGj60axJMUTWj2jQ1ET3+SjdUL6qUbRPzd_y8jgsg@mail.gmail.com>
From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
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Cc: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com>, "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>, "James Polk \(jmpolk\)" <jmpolk@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Which Area for DetNet?
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Pascal,

While I did join the list to monitor and in case it made sense in routing,
I haven't actually seen any materials or details to form an opinion.  If you
can send me pointers, I can read them.  I did also ping Martin & Spencer
to see if they were aware of detnet.

Regards,
Alia

On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 2:50 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <
pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:

> Yes, Jim,
>
> clearly the detnet work will push problems to transport area. But the work
> is between L2 and L3 as opposed to L4.
>
> I understand that PCE is in Routing Area, which tends to indicate that the
> work could happen there. But it has a lot to with forwarding and signaling
> and little to do with routing.
>
> My preferred bet would be Internet Area, and Routing would be second.
> Ultimately that is not our decision but that of the IESG after the BoF is
> successful.
> So there is not emergency there, what we really need is an AD who is
> sensitive to the issues at hand and willing to help us carry the work out.
>
> I see that Alia stepped in the discussion. So maybe that problem is
> already solved and we do not know it?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Pascal
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of James Polk
> > (jmpolk)
> > Sent: jeudi 18 septembre 2014 01:36
> > To: Jouni Korhonen
> > Cc: detnet@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Which Area for DetNet?
> >
> > Unofficially, IMO, this is a transport area subject.
> >
> > You have asked for a new EF codepoint - that's transport.
> > You deal with congestion control issues - that's transport.
> >
> > At 06:12 PM 9/17/2014, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
> > >Norm,
> > >
> > >My preference would be routing area. Just that tictoc is under internet
> > >area does not mean detnet needs to be there. Then again I would prefer
> > >transport area over rtai, since transport protocols and queuing are
> > >done in transport.
> > >
> > >Jouni
> > >
> > >--
> > >Jouni Korhonen
> > >Broadcom
> > >
> > >(Sent from my mobile..)
> > >
> > > > "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com> kirjoitti 18.9.2014 kello
> 2.51:
> > > >
> > > > Let's get this important discussion going.  In which Area should
> > > > DetNet go?  I heard a number of suggestions in Toronto, but let's
> > > > get them out on the list.  RTAI and Internet are the two that have
> > > > been mentioned to me most often.  Any others?  Any strong opinions?
> > > >
> > > > - Norm
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > detnet mailing list
> > > > detnet@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >detnet mailing list
> > >detnet@ietf.org
> > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > detnet mailing list
> > detnet@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
>
> _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
>

--001a11367626b888100503567000
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Pascal,<div><br></div><div>While I did join the list to mo=
nitor and in case it made sense in routing,</div><div>I haven&#39;t actuall=
y seen any materials or details to form an opinion. =C2=A0If you</div><div>=
can send me pointers, I can read them. =C2=A0I did also ping Martin &amp; S=
pencer</div><div>to see if they were aware of detnet.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Regards,</div><div>Alia</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 2:50 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthu=
bert) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pthubert@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank">pthubert@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex">Yes, Jim,<br>
<br>
clearly the detnet work will push problems to transport area. But the work =
is between L2 and L3 as opposed to L4.<br>
<br>
I understand that PCE is in Routing Area, which tends to indicate that the =
work could happen there. But it has a lot to with forwarding and signaling =
and little to do with routing.<br>
<br>
My preferred bet would be Internet Area, and Routing would be second. Ultim=
ately that is not our decision but that of the IESG after the BoF is succes=
sful.<br>
So there is not emergency there, what we really need is an AD who is sensit=
ive to the issues at hand and willing to help us carry the work out.<br>
<br>
I see that Alia stepped in the discussion. So maybe that problem is already=
 solved and we do not know it?<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Pascal<br>
<span class=3D"im HOEnZb"><br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: detnet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org">detnet=
-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of James Polk<br>
&gt; (jmpolk)<br>
&gt; Sent: jeudi 18 septembre 2014 01:36<br>
&gt; To: Jouni Korhonen<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [Detnet] Which Area for DetNet?<br>
&gt;<br>
</span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">&gt; Unofficially, IMO, this=
 is a transport area subject.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; You have asked for a new EF codepoint - that&#39;s transport.<br>
&gt; You deal with congestion control issues - that&#39;s transport.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; At 06:12 PM 9/17/2014, Jouni Korhonen wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;Norm,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;My preference would be routing area. Just that tictoc is under int=
ernet<br>
&gt; &gt;area does not mean detnet needs to be there. Then again I would pr=
efer<br>
&gt; &gt;transport area over rtai, since transport protocols and queuing ar=
e<br>
&gt; &gt;done in transport.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;Jouni<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;--<br>
&gt; &gt;Jouni Korhonen<br>
&gt; &gt;Broadcom<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;(Sent from my mobile..)<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;Norman Finn (nfinn)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nfinn@=
cisco.com">nfinn@cisco.com</a>&gt; kirjoitti 18.9.2014 kello 2.51:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Let&#39;s get this important discussion going.=C2=A0 In whic=
h Area should<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; DetNet go?=C2=A0 I heard a number of suggestions in Toronto,=
 but let&#39;s<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; get them out on the list.=C2=A0 RTAI and Internet are the tw=
o that have<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; been mentioned to me most often.=C2=A0 Any others?=C2=A0 Any=
 strong opinions?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; - Norm<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; detnet mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt;detnet mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt;<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet" target=3D=
"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; detnet mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
detnet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a11367626b888100503567000--


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From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] What we need to get a BOF in November
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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 16:41:16 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] What we need to get a BOF in November
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From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
To: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Which Area for DetNet?
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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 16:46:21 +0000
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References: <D03F261E.31E38%nfinn@cisco.com> <B692921C-D813-4A96-B8C7-C89BB7415CDE@broadcom.com> <201409172335.s8HNZW6F016668@rcdn-core-2.cisco.com> <E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DC98F7@xmb-rcd-x01.cisco.com> <CAG4d1rcWTyGj60axJMUTWj2jQ1ET3+SjdUL6qUbRPzd_y8jgsg@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] Which Area for DetNet?
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From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
Thread-Index: Ac/TIE0leFbkxe14RJ6u6JZu2uxB1wA+JGwA
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 16:49:12 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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From: "Anca Zamfir (ancaz)" <ancaz@cisco.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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--_000_D0422C5CBCEE3ancazciscocom_
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Hi,
A few questions inline.

thanks,
-anca

From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com<mailto:pthubert@cisco=
.com>>
Date: Thursday, September 18, 2014 11:10 AM
To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com<mailto:nfinn@cisco.com>>
Cc: "detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>" <detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detne=
t@ietf.org>>
Subject: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

Hello Norm:

What do you think of :

Background text

Explaining the use cases and the work at IEEE, I=92m sure you have text?
That would be 3-4 paragraphs, introducing the concepts behind zero congesti=
on loss and PRP

WG description


The Working Group will focus on enabling  end-to-end path with Deterministi=
c Properties and High Reliability.



The extent of the problem space for the WG includes multihop paths which in=
clude Layer-2 Bridging and Layer-3 routing though only Layer-3 operations a=
re specific.

[AZ] Could you please clarify what you mean by "only Layer-3 operations are=
 specific"?


A focus will be on maintaining consistency and compatibility with the concu=
rrent work that is happening at IEEE for the Layer-2 operations.



Initially, the WG will limit its scope to a Campus or a Small/Home office N=
etwork and excludes Wide Area Networks.



The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Inte=
rnet, Transport, Operations and Management, Routing and Security areas.


Work Items




- Deliverables for the first round could be/include :



  * an analysis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 drafts=
 which would include process control, factory automation, planes and video =
studios)

  * a status of the work at IEEE with the general problem statement as perc=
eived there, and the directions that is being taken. Potential solutions wi=
ll be explored.

[AZ] In this bullet, do you mean the IEEE solutions will be explored? Or ne=
w proposals?


  * and a requirement draft for the definition of a PhB at the transport ar=
ea.

  ->  all informational track



  * a generic format for flow identification that works across layers.

  * a study of scoping, including the definition of Realm-Local scope and A=
dmin-Local scope (pre RFC 7346) where for instance the deterministic techno=
logy is consistent over a Realm and achievable across technologies and laye=
rs over an Admin local scope

[AZ] Is this for an IPv6 problem space only?


  -> those would be standard track

[AZ] What about solution and architecture documents?

Milstones

TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after chartering

What do you think?

Pascal

--_000_D0422C5CBCEE3ancazciscocom_
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e-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-ser=
if; ">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">Hi,</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">A few questions inline.</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">thanks,</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">-anca</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><br>
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<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>&quot;Pascal Thubert (pthuber=
t)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pthubert@cisco.com">pthubert@cisco.com</a>&g=
t;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Thursday, September 18, 2014 =
11:10 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;Norman Finn (nfinn)&quot;=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nfinn@cisco.com">nfinn@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@=
ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">=
detnet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>[Detnet] draft charter ske=
leton - with some meat on it<br>
</div>
<div><br>
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<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">Hello Norm:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What do you think of&nbsp;:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm">Background text <o=
:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Explaining the use cases and the work at IEEE, I=92m=
 sure you have text?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That would be 3-4 paragraphs, introducing the concep=
ts behind zero congestion loss and PRP<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm">WG description<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">The Working Group will focus on enabling &nbsp;en=
d-to-end path with Deterministic Properties and High Reliability.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">The extent of the problem space for the WG includ=
es multihop paths which include Layer-2 Bridging and Layer-3 routing though=
 only Layer-3 operations are specific.</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><font color=3D"#00007f">[AZ] Could you please clarify what you mean by=
 &quot;only Layer-3 operations are specific&quot;?</font></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">&nbsp;</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">A focus will be on maintaining consistency and co=
mpatibility with the concurrent work that is happening at IEEE for the Laye=
r-2 operations.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Initially, the WG will limit its scope to a Campu=
s or a Small/Home office Network and excludes Wide Area Networks.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">The WG will interface with other appropriate grou=
ps in the IETF in the Internet, Transport, Operations and Management, Routi=
ng and Security areas.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm">Work Items<o:p></o=
:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">- Deliverables for the first round could be/inclu=
de :<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; * an analysis of the requirements in a num=
ber of environments (3-4 drafts which would include process control, factor=
y automation, planes and video studios)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; * a status of the work at IEEE with the ge=
neral problem statement as perceived there, and the directions that is bein=
g taken. Potential solutions will be explored.</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><font color=3D"#00007f">[AZ] In this bullet, do you mean the IEEE solu=
tions will be explored? Or new proposals?</font></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; * and a requirement draft for the definiti=
on of a PhB at the transport area.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; -&gt;&nbsp; all informational track <o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; * a generic format for flow identification=
 that works across layers.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;* a study of scoping, including the d=
efinition of Realm-Local scope and Admin-Local scope (pre RFC 7346) where f=
or instance the deterministic technology is consistent over a Realm and ach=
ievable across technologies and layers over
 an Admin local scope</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><font color=3D"#00007f">[AZ] Is this for an IPv6 problem space only?</=
font></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; -&gt; those would be standard track</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><font color=3D"#00007f">[AZ] What about solution and architecture docu=
ments?&nbsp;</font></div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><font color=3D"#00007f"><o:p></o:p></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); border-style: none none solid; border-bo=
ttom-width: 1pt; border-bottom-color: windowtext; padding: 0cm 0cm 1pt; ">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm">Milstones<o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">TBD, probably all dr=
afts to IESG one year after chartering<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">What do you think?<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">Pascal<o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
</body>
</html>

--_000_D0422C5CBCEE3ancazciscocom_--


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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Anca Zamfir (ancaz)" <ancaz@cisco.com>, "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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--_000_E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DD02A1xmbrcdx01ciscoc_
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Hello Anca:

Please see inline

...

Background text

Explaining the use cases and the work at IEEE, I'm sure you have text?
That would be 3-4 paragraphs, introducing the concepts behind zero congesti=
on loss and PRP

WG description


The Working Group will focus on enabling  end-to-end path with Deterministi=
c Properties and High Reliability.



The extent of the problem space for the WG includes multihop paths which in=
clude Layer-2 Bridging and Layer-3 routing though only Layer-3 operations a=
re specific.
[AZ] Could you please clarify what you mean by "only Layer-3 operations are=
 specific"?

[PT] Typo + autocorrect... I meant specified. The group will not enter IEEE=
-land but complete the work in a consistent fashion.


A focus will be on maintaining consistency and compatibility with the concu=
rrent work that is happening at IEEE for the Layer-2 operations.



Initially, the WG will limit its scope to a Campus or a Small/Home office N=
etwork and excludes Wide Area Networks.



The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Inte=
rnet, Transport, Operations and Management, Routing and Security areas.


Work Items




- Deliverables for the first round could be/include :



  * an analysis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 drafts=
 which would include process control, factory automation, planes and video =
studios)

  * a status of the work at IEEE with the general problem statement as perc=
eived there, and the directions that is being taken. Potential solutions wi=
ll be explored.
[AZ] In this bullet, do you mean the IEEE solutions will be explored? Or ne=
w proposals?
[PT] Well, I meant to cover the list that Norm indicated at the beginning o=
f this thread. The solution space in its abstract form does not depend on L=
2 vs. L3. The gory details of encoding will, but then that is not the scope=
 of that document. How would you suggest to reword it?


  * and a requirement draft for the definition of a PhB at the transport ar=
ea.

  ->  all informational track



  * a generic format for flow identification that works across layers.

  * a study of scoping, including the definition of Realm-Local scope and A=
dmin-Local scope (pre RFC 7346) where for instance the deterministic techno=
logy is consistent over a Realm and achievable across technologies and laye=
rs over an Admin local scope
[AZ] Is this for an IPv6 problem space only?
[PT] Certainly not, we must make that more generic/abstract to encompass v4=
.


  -> those would be standard track
[AZ] What about solution and architecture documents?
[PT] solution exploration and architecture provide information but no inter=
op rules and MUSTs. Informational is fine...

Cheers,

Pascal

Milstones

TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after chartering

What do you think?

Pascal

--_000_E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DD02A1xmbrcdx01ciscoc_
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hello Anca:<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Please see inline<o:p>=
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yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Background text <o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Explaining the use cases=
 and the work at IEEE, I&#8217;m sure you have text?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">That would be 3-4 paragr=
aphs, introducing the concepts behind zero congestion loss and PRP<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">WG description<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">The Working Group wil=
l focus on enabling &nbsp;end-to-end path with Deterministic Properties and=
 High Reliability.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">The extent of the pro=
blem space for the WG includes multihop paths which include Layer-2 Bridgin=
g and Layer-3 routing though only Layer-3 operations are specific.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#00007F">[AZ] =
Could you please clarify what you mean by &quot;only Layer-3 operations are=
 specific&quot;?</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[PT] Typo &#43; =
autocorrect&#8230; I meant specified. The group will not enter IEEE-land bu=
t complete the work in a consistent fashion.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbsp;<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">A focus will be on ma=
intaining consistency and compatibility with the concurrent work that is ha=
ppening at IEEE for the Layer-2 operations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">Initially, the WG wil=
l limit its scope to a Campus or a Small/Home office Network and excludes W=
ide Area Networks.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">The WG will interface=
 with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Internet, Transport, Oper=
ations and Management, Routing and Security areas.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Work Items<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">- Deliverables for th=
e first round could be/include :<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp; * an analysis =
of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 drafts which would inc=
lude process control, factory automation, planes and video studios)<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp; * a status of =
the work at IEEE with the general problem statement as perceived there, and=
 the directions that is being taken. Potential solutions will be explored.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#00007F">[AZ] =
In this bullet, do you mean the IEEE solutions will be explored? Or new pro=
posals?</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[PT] Well, I mea=
nt to cover the list that Norm indicated at the beginning of this thread. T=
he solution space in its abstract form does not depend on L2 vs. L3. The go=
ry details of encoding will, but then
 that is not the scope of that document. How would you suggest to reword it=
?</span></i></b><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp; * and a requir=
ement draft for the definition of a PhB at the transport area.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp; -&gt;&nbsp; al=
l informational track <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp; * a generic fo=
rmat for flow identification that works across layers.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;* a study=
 of scoping, including the definition of Realm-Local scope and Admin-Local =
scope (pre RFC 7346) where for instance the deterministic technology is con=
sistent over a Realm and achievable across technologies
 and layers over an Admin local scope<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#00007F">[AZ] =
Is this for an IPv6 problem space only?</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[PT] Certainly n=
ot, we must make that more generic/abstract to encompass v4.</span></i></b>=
<span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp; -&gt; those wo=
uld be standard track<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#00007F">[AZ] =
What about solution and architecture documents?&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[PT] solution ex=
ploration and architecture provide information but no interop rules and MUS=
Ts. Informational is fine&#8230;</span></i></b><span style=3D"color:#1F497D=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers,<o:p></o:=
p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Pascal<o:p></o:p=
></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Milstones<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">TBD, probably all drafts=
 to IESG one year after chartering<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">What do you think?<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Pascal<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DD02A1xmbrcdx01ciscoc_--


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From: "Anca Zamfir (ancaz)" <ancaz@cisco.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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--_000_D0423592BCF20ancazciscocom_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
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Hi Pascal,
Thanks for the response. Please see inline for [AZ2].

cheers,
-anca


Background text

Explaining the use cases and the work at IEEE, I=92m sure you have text?
That would be 3-4 paragraphs, introducing the concepts behind zero congesti=
on loss and PRP

WG description


The Working Group will focus on enabling  end-to-end path with Deterministi=
c Properties and High Reliability.



The extent of the problem space for the WG includes multihop paths which in=
clude Layer-2 Bridging and Layer-3 routing though only Layer-3 operations a=
re specific.
[AZ] Could you please clarify what you mean by "only Layer-3 operations are=
 specific"?

[PT] Typo + autocorrect=85 I meant specified. The group will not enter IEEE=
-land but complete the work in a consistent fashion.

[AZ2] Is the expectation that L2 devices will mainly be able to operate as =
specified today? And where not, any required extensions must be specified i=
n IEEE? Will IETF be driving the overall architecture? Or is it somehow a j=
oint effort?



A focus will be on maintaining consistency and compatibility with the concu=
rrent work that is happening at IEEE for the Layer-2 operations.



Initially, the WG will limit its scope to a Campus or a Small/Home office N=
etwork and excludes Wide Area Networks.



The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Inte=
rnet, Transport, Operations and Management, Routing and Security areas.


Work Items




- Deliverables for the first round could be/include :



  * an analysis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 drafts=
 which would include process control, factory automation, planes and video =
studios)

  * a status of the work at IEEE with the general problem statement as perc=
eived there, and the directions that is being taken. Potential solutions wi=
ll be explored.
[AZ] In this bullet, do you mean the IEEE solutions will be explored? Or ne=
w proposals?
[PT] Well, I meant to cover the list that Norm indicated at the beginning o=
f this thread. The solution space in its abstract form does not depend on L=
2 vs. L3. The gory details of encoding will, but then that is not the scope=
 of that document. How would you suggest to reword it?

[AZ2] Thanks for the clarification. Not sure on the wording, maybe: "Analys=
is of the IEEE related work, its solutions and limitations." and a separate=
 bullet for "Potential solutions will be explored".


  * and a requirement draft for the definition of a PhB at the transport ar=
ea.

  ->  all informational track



  * a generic format for flow identification that works across layers.

  * a study of scoping, including the definition of Realm-Local scope and A=
dmin-Local scope (pre RFC 7346) where for instance the deterministic techno=
logy is consistent over a Realm and achievable across technologies and laye=
rs over an Admin local scope
[AZ] Is this for an IPv6 problem space only?
[PT] Certainly not, we must make that more generic/abstract to encompass v4=
.
[AZ2] Maybe clarify..since RFC7346 is for IPv6 only? Something like "a stud=
y of generic scoping, including the definition of =85 "?


  -> those would be standard track
[AZ] What about solution and architecture documents?
[PT] solution exploration and architecture provide information but no inter=
op rules and MUSTs. Informational is fine=85
[AZ2] Is this then covered under "Potential solutions will be explored" abo=
ve under informational?



Cheers,

Pascal

Milstones

TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after chartering

What do you think?

Pascal

--_000_D0423592BCF20ancazciscocom_
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<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; ">
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb=
(0, 0, 0); ">
Hi Pascal,&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb=
(0, 0, 0); ">
Thanks for the response. Please see inline for [AZ2].</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb=
(0, 0, 0); ">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb=
(0, 0, 0); ">
cheers,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb=
(0, 0, 0); ">
-anca</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb=
(0, 0, 0); ">
<br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Background text <o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Explaining the use cases=
 and the work at IEEE, I=92m sure you have text?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">That would be 3-4 paragr=
aphs, introducing the concepts behind zero congestion loss and PRP<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">WG description<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">The Working Group wil=
l focus on enabling &nbsp;end-to-end path with Deterministic Properties and=
 High Reliability.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">The extent of the pro=
blem space for the WG includes multihop paths which include Layer-2 Bridgin=
g and Layer-3 routing though only Layer-3 operations are specific.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#00007F">[AZ] =
Could you please clarify what you mean by &quot;only Layer-3 operations are=
 specific&quot;?</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[PT] Typo &#43; =
autocorrect=85 I meant specified. The group will not enter IEEE-land but co=
mplete the work in a consistent fashion.</span></i></b></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb=
(0, 0, 0); ">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; "><font co=
lor=3D"#0000ff">[AZ2] Is the expectation that L2 devices will mainly be abl=
e to operate as specified today? And where not, any required extensions mus=
t be specified in IEEE? Will IETF be
 driving the overall architecture? Or is it somehow a joint effort?</font><=
/div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb=
(0, 0, 0); ">
<br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbsp;<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">A focus will be on ma=
intaining consistency and compatibility with the concurrent work that is ha=
ppening at IEEE for the Layer-2 operations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">Initially, the WG wil=
l limit its scope to a Campus or a Small/Home office Network and excludes W=
ide Area Networks.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">The WG will interface=
 with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Internet, Transport, Oper=
ations and Management, Routing and Security areas.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Work Items<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">- Deliverables for th=
e first round could be/include :<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp; * an analysis =
of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 drafts which would inc=
lude process control, factory automation, planes and video studios)<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp; * a status of =
the work at IEEE with the general problem statement as perceived there, and=
 the directions that is being taken. Potential solutions will be explored.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#00007F">[AZ] =
In this bullet, do you mean the IEEE solutions will be explored? Or new pro=
posals?</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[PT] Well, I mea=
nt to cover the list that Norm indicated at the beginning of this thread. T=
he solution space in its abstract form does not depend on L2 vs. L3. The go=
ry details of encoding will, but then
 that is not the scope of that document. How would you suggest to reword it=
?</span></i></b></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font color=3D"#0000ff"><font face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif">[AZ2] Thanks=
 for the clarification. Not sure on the wording, maybe: &quot;Analysis of t=
he IEEE related work, its solutions and limitations.&quot; and a separate b=
ullet for &quot;Potential solutions will be explored&quot;.</font></font></=
div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; font-size: 14px; ">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt;=
 border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; ">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"#0000ff"><o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp; * and a requir=
ement draft for the definition of a PhB at the transport area.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp; -&gt;&nbsp; al=
l informational track <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp; * a generic fo=
rmat for flow identification that works across layers.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;* a study=
 of scoping, including the definition of Realm-Local scope and Admin-Local =
scope (pre RFC 7346) where for instance the deterministic technology is con=
sistent over a Realm and achievable across technologies
 and layers over an Admin local scope<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#00007F">[AZ] =
Is this for an IPv6 problem space only?</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[PT] Certainly n=
ot, we must make that more generic/abstract to encompass v4.</span></i></b>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><font color=3D"#0000ff"><font face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif">[AZ2] Maybe =
clarify..since RFC7346 is for IPv6 only? Something&nbsp;like&nbsp;&quot;a s=
tudy of generic scoping, including the definition of&nbsp;=85&nbsp;&quot;?<=
/font></font></div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; font-size: 14px; ">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt;=
 border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; ">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"#0000ff"><o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp; -&gt; those wo=
uld be standard track<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); ">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#00007F">[AZ] =
What about solution and architecture documents?&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[PT] solution ex=
ploration and architecture provide information but no interop rules and MUS=
Ts. Informational is fine=85</span></i></b></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><font color=3D"#0000ff">[AZ2] Is this then covered under &quot;Potenti=
al solutions will be explored&quot; above under informational?</font></div>
<div><font color=3D"#0000ff"><br>
</font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; font-size: 14px; ">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt;=
 border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; ">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"#0000ff"><o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><b><i><span style=3D=
"color:#1F497D">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><b><i><span style=3D=
"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><b><i><span style=3D=
"color:#1F497D">Pascal<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><span style=3D"color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); border-style: none none solid; border-bo=
ttom-width: 1pt; border-bottom-color: windowtext; padding: 0cm 0cm 1pt; ">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Milstones<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><span style=3D"color=
:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><span style=3D"color=
:black">TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after chartering<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><span style=3D"color=
:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><span style=3D"color=
:black">What do you think?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><span style=3D"color=
:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><span style=3D"color=
:black">Pascal<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Anca Zamfir (ancaz)" <ancaz@cisco.com>, "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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Hello Anca:



Background text

Explaining the use cases and the work at IEEE, I'm sure you have text?
That would be 3-4 paragraphs, introducing the concepts behind zero congesti=
on loss and PRP

WG description


The Working Group will focus on enabling  end-to-end path with Deterministi=
c Properties and High Reliability.



The extent of the problem space for the WG includes multihop paths which in=
clude Layer-2 Bridging and Layer-3 routing though only Layer-3 operations a=
re specific.
[AZ] Could you please clarify what you mean by "only Layer-3 operations are=
 specific"?

[PT] Typo + autocorrect... I meant specified. The group will not enter IEEE=
-land but complete the work in a consistent fashion.

[AZ2] Is the expectation that L2 devices will mainly be able to operate as =
specified today? And where not, any required extensions must be specified i=
n IEEE? Will IETF be driving the overall architecture? Or is it somehow a j=
oint effort?

[PT] My understanding from the 802.1 work is that we have to live with the =
existing silicon, which excludes, like, MPLS switching in the bridges. I th=
ink that IEEE is already driving the architecture, but in a fashion that ha=
s great care and concern to protect the converging interests of both sides.


A focus will be on maintaining consistency and compatibility with the concu=
rrent work that is happening at IEEE for the Layer-2 operations.



Initially, the WG will limit its scope to a Campus or a Small/Home office N=
etwork and excludes Wide Area Networks.



The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Inte=
rnet, Transport, Operations and Management, Routing and Security areas.


Work Items




- Deliverables for the first round could be/include :



  * an analysis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 drafts=
 which would include process control, factory automation, planes and video =
studios)

  * a status of the work at IEEE with the general problem statement as perc=
eived there, and the directions that is being taken. Potential solutions wi=
ll be explored.
[AZ] In this bullet, do you mean the IEEE solutions will be explored? Or ne=
w proposals?
[PT] Well, I meant to cover the list that Norm indicated at the beginning o=
f this thread. The solution space in its abstract form does not depend on L=
2 vs. L3. The gory details of encoding will, but then that is not the scope=
 of that document. How would you suggest to reword it?

[AZ2] Thanks for the clarification. Not sure on the wording, maybe: "Analys=
is of the IEEE related work, its solutions and limitations." and a separate=
 bullet for "Potential solutions will be explored".


  * and a requirement draft for the definition of a PhB at the transport ar=
ea.

  ->  all informational track



  * a generic format for flow identification that works across layers.

  * a study of scoping, including the definition of Realm-Local scope and A=
dmin-Local scope (pre RFC 7346) where for instance the deterministic techno=
logy is consistent over a Realm and achievable across technologies and laye=
rs over an Admin local scope
[AZ] Is this for an IPv6 problem space only?
[PT] Certainly not, we must make that more generic/abstract to encompass v4=
.
[AZ2] Maybe clarify..since RFC7346 is for IPv6 only? Something like "a stud=
y of generic scoping, including the definition of ... "?
[PT] Agreed, I'll look into it and propose an update.


  -> those would be standard track
[AZ] What about solution and architecture documents?
[PT] solution exploration and architecture provide information but no inter=
op rules and MUSTs. Informational is fine...
[AZ2] Is this then covered under "Potential solutions will be explored" abo=
ve under informational?

[PT] Yes, it is. It's proposing a taxonomy not defining the final solution.

Cheers,

Pascal

Milstones

TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after chartering

What do you think?

Pascal

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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hello Anca:<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:blac=
k"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">Background text
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">Explaining the use cases and the work =
at IEEE, I&#8217;m sure you have text?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">That would be 3-4 paragraphs, introduc=
ing the concepts behind zero congestion loss and PRP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">WG description<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">The =
Working Group will focus on enabling &nbsp;end-to-end path with Determinist=
ic Properties and High Reliability.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">The =
extent of the problem space for the WG includes multihop paths which includ=
e Layer-2 Bridging and Layer-3 routing though only Layer-3 operations are s=
pecific.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#00007F">[AZ] Could you plea=
se clarify what you mean by &quot;only Layer-3 operations are specific&quot=
;?</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[PT] Typo &#43; autocorrect&#8=
230; I meant specified. The group will not enter IEEE-land but complete the=
 work in a consistent fashion.</span></i></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:blue">[AZ2] Is=
 the expectation that L2 devices will mainly be able to operate as specifie=
d today? And where not, any required extensions must be specified in IEEE? =
Will IETF be driving the overall architecture?
 Or is it somehow a joint effort?</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[PT] My understa=
nding from the 802.1 work is that we have to live with the existing silicon=
, which excludes, like, MPLS switching in the bridges. I think that IEEE is=
 already driving the architecture, but
 in a fashion that has great care and concern to protect the converging int=
erests of both sides.</span></i></b><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif=
&quot;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">A fo=
cus will be on maintaining consistency and compatibility with the concurren=
t work that is happening at IEEE for the Layer-2 operations.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">Init=
ially, the WG will limit its scope to a Campus or a Small/Home office Netwo=
rk and excludes Wide Area Networks.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">The =
WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Internet=
, Transport, Operations and Management, Routing and Security areas.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">Work Items</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:=
black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">- De=
liverables for the first round could be/include :<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbs=
p; * an analysis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 draft=
s which would include process control, factory automation, planes and video=
 studios)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbs=
p; * a status of the work at IEEE with the general problem statement as per=
ceived there, and the directions that is being taken. Potential solutions w=
ill be explored.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#00007F">[AZ] In this bullet=
, do you mean the IEEE solutions will be explored? Or new proposals?</span>=
<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&qu=
ot;serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[PT] Well, I meant to cover th=
e list that Norm indicated at the beginning of this thread. The solution sp=
ace in its abstract form does not depend
 on L2 vs. L3. The gory details of encoding will, but then that is not the =
scope of that document. How would you suggest to reword it?</span></i></b><=
span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue">[AZ2] Thanks for the clar=
ification. Not sure on the wording, maybe: &quot;Analysis of the IEEE relat=
ed work, its solutions and limitations.&quot; and a separate bullet for &qu=
ot;Potential solutions will be explored&quot;.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbs=
p; * and a requirement draft for the definition of a PhB at the transport a=
rea.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbs=
p; -&gt;&nbsp; all informational track
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbs=
p; * a generic format for flow identification that works across layers.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;* a study of scoping, including the definition of Realm-Local scope=
 and Admin-Local scope (pre RFC 7346) where for instance the deterministic =
technology is consistent over a Realm and achievable
 across technologies and layers over an Admin local scope<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#00007F">[AZ] Is this for an=
 IPv6 problem space only?</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[PT] Certainly not, we must ma=
ke that more generic/abstract to encompass v4.</span></i></b><span style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue">[AZ2] Maybe clarify..sinc=
e RFC7346 is for IPv6 only? Something&nbsp;like&nbsp;&quot;a study of gener=
ic scoping, including the definition of&nbsp;&#8230;&nbsp;&quot;?</span><o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[PT] Agreed, I&#=
8217;ll look into it and propose an update.</span></i></b><span style=3D"co=
lor:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbs=
p; -&gt; those would be standard track<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#00007F">[AZ] What about sol=
ution and architecture documents?&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[PT] solution exploration and =
architecture provide information but no interop rules and MUSTs. Informatio=
nal is fine&#8230;</span></i></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue">[AZ2] Is this then covere=
d under &quot;Potential solutions will be explored&quot; above under inform=
ational?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[PT]</span></i><=
/b> <b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Yes, it is. It&#8217;s proposing a =
taxonomy not defining the final solution.
</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers,</span></i></b><span st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></i></b><span sty=
le=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Pascal</span></i></b><span sty=
le=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:bl=
ack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">Milstones<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one y=
ear after chartering<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">What do you think?<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">Pascal<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Anca Zamfir (ancaz)" <ancaz@cisco.com>, "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>, "Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net)" <nordmark@sonic.net>, "Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)" <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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Dear all:

Please find below my latest and the txt version attached. I included (my un=
derstanding of) Anca's point (Thanks Anca!) as well as a multilayer/segment=
 discussion as stirred by George. I stole and adapted text from various pla=
ces, the original authors will recognize themselves : )



Background on deterministic networking


Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typicall=
y used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as well as move=
ment detection systems for use in Process Control (i.e., process manufactur=
ing) and Factory Automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its diff=
erent goals, OT has evolved totally in parallel and in a manner that is rad=
ically different from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and deter=
ministic networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.

The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Inter=
net, will represent a major evolution for both sides. The work has already =
started; in particular, the Industrial Automation space has been developing=
 a number of Ethernet-based "fieldbus" replacements, meant to provide "dete=
rminism", with the focus to transport a fully characterized flow over a ver=
y controlled environment (i.e., a "well regulated" factory floor), with a b=
ounded latency, a low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter.

In parallel, a high demand for a standard format drove the formation of the=
 Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the=
 professional and home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical ap=
plications, AVB networks share very similar characteristics. Other instance=
s of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for instance in the contex=
t of vehicles and avionics, with the mission-critical "Avionics Full-Duplex=
 Switched Ethernet" (AFDX) that was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standa=
rds. The work started at the IEEE802.1 to provide deterministic Ethernet A/=
V Bridging has now generalized and was renamed "Time Sensitive Networking" =
(TSN).

The IETF and the IEEE need now to collaborate and define an abstract model =
that can be applicable at Layer-2 and Layer-3 along segments of different t=
echnologies, for instance across a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges and th=
en a (limited) number of IP routers, such as 6TiSCH nodes which, by the way=
, operate on a different MAC/PHY. The model should enable fully scheduled o=
perations by a central controller, with capabilities such as zero congestio=
n loss and live-live parallel transmission for increased reliability, as we=
ll as a more distributed model similar to Intserv, though bounded in reach =
and possibilities.


WG description

The Working Group will focus on the signaling and forwarding models that ar=
e required to enable an end-to-end path with the Deterministic properties o=
f controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jitter, and High Reliabili=
ty, over a moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 network composed of IEEE8=
02.1 bridges, routers, and hosts, within a single administrative domain suc=
h as a campus or a Small/Home office Network.
The extent of the problem space for the WG includes the establishment and m=
aintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 bridged and Layer-3 routed segme=
nts, and though only Layer-3 operations will be specified in Standard Track=
 documents, the group will maintain consistency and compatibility with the =
concurrent work that is happening at IEEE802.1 TSN for the Layer-2 operatio=
ns.
The work will include the characterization and the marking of flows. It wil=
l apply to flows that can be well-characterized in a manner that allows to =
tightly reserve the appropriate network resources for the flows in advance,=
 and release/reuse the resources when they are not required.

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Inte=
rnet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Rout=
ing and Security areas.
Work Items

- Deliverables:
  * an analysis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 drafts=
 which would include process control, factory automation, planes and video =
studios)
  * A general problem statement including an analysis of the proposed solut=
ions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN, with a status of the work done an=
d left to be achieved, and the directions that are being taken.
  * A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explore=
d, such as Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), Centra=
l controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), Connection to Operations (App=
lication) Controllers, and Mixed scenarios.
  * requirement drafts will be produced for other WGs as deemed necessary, =
with for instance a requirement draft for the definition of a PHsB at the t=
ransport area.
  * a study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the defini=
tion of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (per RFC 7=
346) where for instance the deterministic technology is consistent over a L=
ink or a Realm Local Scope and achievable across technologies and layers ov=
er an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.

  ->  all those documents planned for informational track

  * a data model for flow characterization for use in flow reservation,
  * a flow identification for use in packet forwarding, with declination on=
 6TiSCH and MPLS.

  -> those would be standard track
Milestones

TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after chartering


Cheers,

Pascal

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Dear all:<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Please find below my l=
atest and the txt version attached. I included (my understanding of) Anca&#=
8217;s point (Thanks Anca!) as well as a multilayer/segment discussion as s=
tirred by George. I stole and adapted text
 from various places, the original authors will recognize themselves : )<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm"><span style=3D"col=
or:#1F497D">Background on deterministic networking
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Operational Technology=
 (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typically used for monitoring =
systems and supporting control loops, as well as movement detection systems=
 for use in Process Control (i.e., process
 manufacturing) and Factory Automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due =
to its different goals, OT has evolved totally in parallel and in a manner =
that is radically different from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliabl=
e and deterministic networks, with
 limited scalability over a bounded area.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The convergence of IT =
and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Internet, will represent a =
major evolution for both sides. The work has already started; in particular=
, the Industrial Automation space has
 been developing a number of Ethernet-based &#8220;fieldbus&#8221; replacem=
ents, meant to provide &#8220;determinism&#8221;, with the focus to transpo=
rt a fully characterized flow over a very controlled environment (i.e., a &=
#8220;well regulated&#8221; factory floor), with a bounded latency,
 a low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">In parallel, a high de=
mand for a standard format drove the formation of the Audio/Video Bridging =
(AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the professional and home=
 audio/video markets. While aimed at
 less critical applications, AVB networks share very similar characteristic=
s. Other instances of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for insta=
nce in the context of vehicles and avionics, with the mission-critical &#82=
20;Avionics Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet&#8221;
 (AFDX) that was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standards. The work start=
ed at the IEEE802.1 to provide deterministic Ethernet A/V Bridging has now =
generalized and was renamed &quot;Time Sensitive Networking&quot; (TSN).<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The IETF and the IEEE =
need now to collaborate and define an abstract model that can be applicable=
 at Layer-2 and Layer-3 along segments of different technologies, for insta=
nce across a (limited) number of 802.1
 bridges and then a (limited) number of IP routers, such as 6TiSCH nodes wh=
ich, by the way, operate on a different MAC/PHY. The model should enable fu=
lly scheduled operations by a central controller, with capabilities such as=
 zero congestion loss and live-live
 parallel transmission for increased reliability, as well as a more distrib=
uted model similar to Intserv, though bounded in reach and possibilities.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm"><span style=3D"col=
or:#1F497D">WG description<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The Working Group will=
 focus on the signaling and forwarding models that are required to enable a=
n end-to-end path with the Deterministic properties of controlled latency, =
low packet loss, ultra-low jitter, and
 High Reliability, over a moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 network co=
mposed of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts, within a single administra=
tive domain such as a campus or a Small/Home office Network.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The extent of the prob=
lem space for the WG includes the establishment and maintenance of multi-ho=
p paths over Layer-2 bridged and Layer-3 routed segments, and though only L=
ayer-3 operations will be specified
 in Standard Track documents, the group will maintain consistency and compa=
tibility with the concurrent work that is happening at IEEE802.1 TSN for th=
e Layer-2 operations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The work will include =
the characterization and the marking of flows. It will apply to flows that =
can be well-characterized in a manner that allows to tightly reserve the ap=
propriate network resources for the
 flows in advance, and release/reuse the resources when they are not requir=
ed. <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The WG will interface =
with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Internet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Tr=
ansport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Routing and Security areas=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm"><span style=3D"col=
or:#1F497D">Work Items<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">- Deliverables:<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* an analy=
sis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 drafts which would=
 include process control, factory automation, planes and video studios)<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp; * A general pro=
blem statement including an analysis of the proposed solutions of the relat=
ed work at IEEE802.1TSN, with a status of the work done and left to be achi=
eved, and the directions that are being taken.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp; * A solution ta=
xonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explored, such as Peer-t=
o-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), Central controller (alo=
ng the lines of SDN or PCE), Connection to
 Operations (Application) Controllers, and Mixed scenarios.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp; * requirement d=
rafts will be produced for other WGs as deemed necessary, with for instance=
 a requirement draft for the definition of a PHsB at the transport area.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp; * a study of ge=
neric scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the definition of Link-Loca=
l, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (per RFC 7346) where for in=
stance the deterministic technology is consistent
 over a Link or a Realm Local Scope and achievable across technologies and =
layers over an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;-&gt;&nbsp=
; all those documents planned for informational track
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* a data m=
odel for flow characterization for use in flow reservation,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* a flow i=
dentification for use in packet forwarding, with declination on 6TiSCH and =
MPLS.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;-&gt; thos=
e would be standard track<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm"><span style=3D"col=
or:#1F497D">Milestones<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">TBD, probably all draf=
ts to IESG one year after chartering<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Pascal<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DD37DCxmbrcdx01ciscoc_--

--_004_E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DD37DCxmbrcdx01ciscoc_
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--_004_E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DD37DCxmbrcdx01ciscoc_--


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Cc: "Erik Nordmark \(nordmark@sonic.net\)" <nordmark@sonic.net>, "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>, "Norman Finn \(nfinn\)" <nfinn@cisco.com>, "Anca Zamfir \(ancaz\)" <ancaz@cisco.com>, "Alia Atlas \(akatlas@gmail.com\)" <akatlas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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List-Id: "Discussions on Deterministic Networking, characterized by 1\) resource reservation; 2\) 0 congestion loss and guaranteed latency; 3\) over L2-only and mixed L2 and L3 networks; and 5\) 1+1 replication/deletion." <detnet.ietf.org>
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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: Rodney Cummings <rodney.cummings@ni.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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--_004_E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DD3B78xmbrcdx01ciscoc_
Content-Type: text/plain; name="detnet charter.txt"
Content-Description: detnet charter.txt
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="detnet charter.txt"; size=5597;
	creation-date="Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:00:45 GMT";
	modification-date="Mon, 22 Sep 2014 14:42:26 GMT"
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From: "Black, David" <david.black@emc.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, "Anca Zamfir (ancaz)" <ancaz@cisco.com>, "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>, "Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net)" <nordmark@sonic.net>, "Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)" <akatlas@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 11:51:40 -0400
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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Pascal,

This text looks promising.  Here are a few things to consider.

(1) How does this relate to IETF's focus on the public (capital-I) Internet=
?

- Would it be reasonable to envision deterministic networking running
over (suitably provisioned) Internet paths in a network, e.g.,
to connect related industrial sites?
- I'm reacting to "very controlled environment" at the end of the
      second paragraph in Background and suggesting some text to
      address the broader possibilities.

(2) I see a disconnect between the charter text's focus on "models"
and the two specific standards track protocol deliverables.

- This starts at the end of the background that seems to scope the
      work solely to models.  The proposed work is not just to
      produce models, but also protocol support for deterministic
      IP-based networking (some of which might take place in other
      WGs).

(3) Please add a sentence or two on how coordination with the IEEE
is envisioned to work.

- How do we ensure (or at least make it highly likely) that the IEEE
      and IETF develop and work with common models and requirements?
- This is about heading off divergence in advance, and might be as
      simple as key people participating in both organizations.

(4) For deliverables:

- I would combine the first two, so that the use cases support both
      the problem statement and high-level requirements.
- The IP scoping work feels like it's related to the solution taxonomy,
      but I'm not sure whether those should be combined.  At a minimum,
      the solution taxonomy should discuss the role of IP scope.
- There's probably some sequencing in the dates with the requirements
      and problem statement coming before the two standards-track
      documents.

(5) Flow characterization - between the third paragraph in the WG
description and the deliverable, I'm missing something about how the
"data model for flow characterization" is intended to be used.

- Suggestion: list reservation protocols with which the model could
be used (e.g., RSVP) as examples, making it clear that the WG
decides which ones are relevant.
- What is IEEE doing for flow reservation?  That should be mentioned.

(6) I wonder about committing this proposed WG to produce requirements
for work in other WGs.

- Some flexibility and lazy evaluation of where to do work may be
      better.
- I would suggest softening this language to talk about requirements
as deliverables, and discuss the possibility of work being
done in other WGs up in the main charter text.



Thanks,
--David

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (=
pthubert)
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 9:48 AM
To: Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic=
.net); Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

Dear all:

Please find below my latest and the txt version attached. I included (my un=
derstanding of) Anca's point (Thanks Anca!) as well as a multilayer/segment=
 discussion as stirred by George. I stole and adapted text from various pla=
ces, the original authors will recognize themselves : )



Background on deterministic networking


Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typicall=
y used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as well as move=
ment detection systems for use in Process Control (i.e., process manufactur=
ing) and Factory Automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its diff=
erent goals, OT has evolved totally in parallel and in a manner that is rad=
ically different from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and deter=
ministic networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.

The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Inter=
net, will represent a major evolution for both sides. The work has already =
started; in particular, the Industrial Automation space has been developing=
 a number of Ethernet-based "fieldbus" replacements, meant to provide "dete=
rminism", with the focus to transport a fully characterized flow over a ver=
y controlled environment (i.e., a "well regulated" factory floor), with a b=
ounded latency, a low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter.

In parallel, a high demand for a standard format drove the formation of the=
 Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the=
 professional and home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical ap=
plications, AVB networks share very similar characteristics. Other instance=
s of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for instance in the contex=
t of vehicles and avionics, with the mission-critical "Avionics Full-Duplex=
 Switched Ethernet" (AFDX) that was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standa=
rds. The work started at the IEEE802.1 to provide deterministic Ethernet A/=
V Bridging has now generalized and was renamed "Time Sensitive Networking" =
(TSN).

The IETF and the IEEE need now to collaborate and define an abstract model =
that can be applicable at Layer-2 and Layer-3 along segments of different t=
echnologies, for instance across a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges and th=
en a (limited) number of IP routers, such as 6TiSCH nodes which, by the way=
, operate on a different MAC/PHY. The model should enable fully scheduled o=
perations by a central controller, with capabilities such as zero congestio=
n loss and live-live parallel transmission for increased reliability, as we=
ll as a more distributed model similar to Intserv, though bounded in reach =
and possibilities.


WG description


The Working Group will focus on the signaling and forwarding models that ar=
e required to enable an end-to-end path with the Deterministic properties o=
f controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jitter, and High Reliabili=
ty, over a moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 network composed of IEEE8=
02.1 bridges, routers, and hosts, within a single administrative domain suc=
h as a campus or a Small/Home office Network.

The extent of the problem space for the WG includes the establishment and m=
aintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 bridged and Layer-3 routed segme=
nts, and though only Layer-3 operations will be specified in Standard Track=
 documents, the group will maintain consistency and compatibility with the =
concurrent work that is happening at IEEE802.1 TSN for the Layer-2 operatio=
ns.

The work will include the characterization and the marking of flows. It wil=
l apply to flows that can be well-characterized in a manner that allows to =
tightly reserve the appropriate network resources for the flows in advance,=
 and release/reuse the resources when they are not required.

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Inte=
rnet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Rout=
ing and Security areas.

Work Items


- Deliverables:

  * an analysis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 drafts=
 which would include process control, factory automation, planes and video =
studios)
  * A general problem statement including an analysis of the proposed solut=
ions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN, with a status of the work done an=
d left to be achieved, and the directions that are being taken.
  * A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explore=
d, such as Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), Centra=
l controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), Connection to Operations (App=
lication) Controllers, and Mixed scenarios.
  * requirement drafts will be produced for other WGs as deemed necessary, =
with for instance a requirement draft for the definition of a PHsB at the t=
ransport area.
  * a study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the defini=
tion of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (per RFC 7=
346) where for instance the deterministic technology is consistent over a L=
ink or a Realm Local Scope and achievable across technologies and layers ov=
er an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.

  ->  all those documents planned for informational track

  * a data model for flow characterization for use in flow reservation,
  * a flow identification for use in packet forwarding, with declination on=
 6TiSCH and MPLS.

  -> those would be standard track

Milestones


TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after chartering


Cheers,

Pascal

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Pascal,<o:p></o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>This=
 text looks promising.&nbsp; Here are a few things to consider.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>(1)=
 How does this relate to IETF&#8217;s focus on the public (capital-I) Inter=
net?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";=
color:black'>- Would it be reasonable to envision deterministic networking =
running<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in=
'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>ov=
er (suitably provisioned) Internet paths in a network, e.g.,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>to connect related indus=
trial sites?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- I&#8217;m reacting to =
&#8220;very controlled environment&#8221; at the end of the<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Cou=
rier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; second paragraph in B=
ackground and suggesting some text to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; address the broader possibilities.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>=
(2) I see a disconnect between the charter text&#8217;s focus on &#8220;mod=
els&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>and the two specific stand=
ards track protocol deliverables.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- This starts at the end of the b=
ackground that seems to scope the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; work solely to models.&nbsp; The proposed work =
is not just to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; produce models, but also protocol support for deterministic<o:p></=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IP-based net=
working (some of which might take place in other<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";c=
olor:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WGs).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";c=
olor:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>(3) Please add a s=
entence or two on how coordination with the IEEE<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";c=
olor:black'>is envisioned to work.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- How do we ensure (or at least =
make it highly likely) that the IEEE<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and IETF develop and work with common models=
 and requirements?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- This is about he=
ading off divergence in advance, and might be as<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";c=
olor:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; simple as key people participati=
ng in both organizations.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:"Courier New";color:black'>(4) For deliverables:<o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier=
 New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- I would c=
ombine the first two, so that the use cases support both<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courie=
r New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the problem statement an=
d high-level requirements.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- The IP s=
coping work feels like it&#8217;s related to the solution taxonomy,<o:p></o=
:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; but I&#8217;m=
 not sure whether those should be combined.&nbsp; At a minimum,<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the solution taxo=
nomy should discuss the role of IP scope.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:bl=
ack'>- There&#8217;s probably some sequencing in the dates with the require=
ments<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
and problem statement coming before the two standards-track<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Cou=
rier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; documents.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family=
:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>(5=
) Flow characterization - between the third paragraph in the WG<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
"Courier New";color:black'>description and the deliverable, I&#8217;m missi=
ng something about how the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&#8220;dat=
a model for flow characterization&#8221; is intended to be used.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family=
:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- =
Suggestion: list reservation protocols with which the model could<o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>be used (e.g., RSVP=
) as examples, making it clear that the WG<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:"Courier New";color:black'>decides which ones are relevant.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Courier New";color:black'>- What is IEEE doing for flow reservation?&nbs=
p; That should be mentioned.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Courier New";color:black'>(6) I wonder about committing this pro=
posed WG to produce requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>for =
work in other WGs.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
"Courier New";color:black'>- Some flexibility and lazy evaluation of where =
to do work may be<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; better.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- I would sugge=
st softening this language to talk about requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>as deliverables, and discuss th=
e possibility of work being<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'>done in other WGs up in the main charter text.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family=
:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"C=
ourier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Thanks,<br>--David</span>=
<span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p=
></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'bor=
der:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0=
in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ta=
homa","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Pascal Thubert (pthubert)<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 2=
2, 2014 9:48 AM<br><b>To:</b> Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Eri=
k Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net); Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)<br><b>Cc:</=
b> detnet@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton -=
 with some meat on it<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>De=
ar all:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F4=
97D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:=
#1F497D'>Please find below my latest and the txt version attached. I includ=
ed (my understanding of) Anca&#8217;s point (Thanks Anca!) as well as a mul=
tilayer/segment discussion as stirred by George. I stole and adapted text f=
rom various places, the original authors will recognize themselves : )<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-bottom:s=
olid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
 style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Background on deterministic networking <o:p></o:p>=
</span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'=
>Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typical=
ly used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as well as mov=
ement detection systems for use in Process Control (i.e., process manufactu=
ring) and Factory Automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its dif=
ferent goals, OT has evolved totally in parallel and in a manner that is ra=
dically different from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and dete=
rministic networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The conv=
ergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Internet, wil=
l represent a major evolution for both sides. The work has already started;=
 in particular, the Industrial Automation space has been developing a numbe=
r of Ethernet-based &#8220;fieldbus&#8221; replacements, meant to provide &=
#8220;determinism&#8221;, with the focus to transport a fully characterized=
 flow over a very controlled environment (i.e., a &#8220;well regulated&#82=
21; factory floor), with a bounded latency, a low frame loss, and a very na=
rrow jitter.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color=
:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'c=
olor:#1F497D'>In parallel, a high demand for a standard format drove the fo=
rmation of the Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, d=
estined to the professional and home audio/video markets. While aimed at le=
ss critical applications, AVB networks share very similar characteristics. =
Other instances of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for instance=
 in the context of vehicles and avionics, with the mission-critical &#8220;=
Avionics Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet&#8221; (AFDX) that was designed as p=
art of the ARIC 664 standards. The work started at the IEEE802.1 to provide=
 deterministic Ethernet A/V Bridging has now generalized and was renamed &q=
uot;Time Sensitive Networking&quot; (TSN).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The IETF and the IEEE need now =
to collaborate and define an abstract model that can be applicable at Layer=
-2 and Layer-3 along segments of different technologies, for instance acros=
s a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges and then a (limited) number of IP rou=
ters, such as 6TiSCH nodes which, by the way, operate on a different MAC/PH=
Y. The model should enable fully scheduled operations by a central controll=
er, with capabilities such as zero congestion loss and live-live parallel t=
ransmission for increased reliability, as well as a more distributed model =
similar to Intserv, though bounded in reach and possibilities.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1=
.0pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#=
1F497D'>WG description<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The Working Group will focus on the signa=
ling and forwarding models that are required to enable an end-to-end path w=
ith the Deterministic properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ul=
tra-low jitter, and High Reliability, over a moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 /=
 Layer 3 network composed of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts, within =
a single administrative domain such as a campus or a Small/Home office Netw=
ork.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D=
'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F=
497D'>The extent of the problem space for the WG includes the establishment=
 and maintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 bridged and Layer-3 routed=
 segments, and though only Layer-3 operations will be specified in Standard=
 Track documents, the group will maintain consistency and compatibility wit=
h the concurrent work that is happening at IEEE802.1 TSN for the Layer-2 op=
erations.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1=
F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'colo=
r:#1F497D'>The work will include the characterization and the marking of fl=
ows. It will apply to flows that can be well-characterized in a manner that=
 allows to tightly reserve the appropriate network resources for the flows =
in advance, and release/reuse the resources when they are not required. <o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp=
;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>T=
he WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Inter=
net (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Routi=
ng and Security areas.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;b=
order-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Work Items<o:p></o:p></span></p></di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>- Deliverables=
:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;* an analysis of the requirements in a number of environment=
s (3-4 drafts which would include process control, factory automation, plan=
es and video studios)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp; * A general problem statement including an analys=
is of the proposed solutions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN, with a st=
atus of the work done and left to be achieved, and the directions that are =
being taken.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color=
:#1F497D'>&nbsp; * A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms =
will be explored, such as Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP o=
r RSVP), Central controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), Connection to =
Operations (Application) Controllers, and Mixed scenarios.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp; * requiremen=
t drafts will be produced for other WGs as deemed necessary, with for insta=
nce a requirement draft for the definition of a PHsB at the transport area.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&n=
bsp; * a study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the def=
inition of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (per RF=
C 7346) where for instance the deterministic technology is consistent over =
a Link or a Realm Local Scope and achievable across technologies and layers=
 over an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp; <=
o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nb=
sp;&nbsp;-&gt;&nbsp; all those documents planned for informational track <o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>=
&nbsp;&nbsp;* a data model for flow characterization for use in flow reserv=
ation, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F4=
97D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;* a flow identification for use in packet forwarding, with=
 declination on 6TiSCH and MPLS. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;-&gt; those would be standar=
d track<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F4=
97D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-bottom:so=
lid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Milestones<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>TBD, probably all drafts to =
IESG one year after chartering<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Pascal<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
</div></div></div></body></html>=

--_000_8D3D17ACE214DC429325B2B98F3AE712077D7257EFMX15Acorpemcc_--


From nobody Mon Sep 22 09:37:50 2014
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From: Karl Weber <karl.weber@beckhoff.com>
To: "Black, David" <david.black@emc.com>, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, "Anca Zamfir (ancaz)" <ancaz@cisco.com>, "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>, "Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net)" <nordmark@sonic.net>, "Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)" <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
Thread-Index: Ac/TIE0leFbkxe14RJ6u6JZu2uxB1wBRszYAAA6DFtD//5tngIAAdJBQ//x/ELD/+OEnwP/xr98g
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 16:37:36 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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David,

A few cents regarding (1)
Industrial control is structured in several hierarchical levels.
It would be difficult to put everything in a single LAN - thus, a structure=
d system would be fine and IETF may be a good choice to structure a machine=
ry park.

The most important area is the infrastructuring area: water, waste, electri=
city and transposrt.
Especially electricity requires a highly deterministic network and it is de=
finitely a WAN.
Wind parks/Virtual power plants are other examples in this areas.

And electricity is a very important factor for the quality of production se=
amless interaction between infrastructure and production will be a key succ=
ess factor in the future ...

Motors and other equipment may be used in infrastructure and industry - a c=
ommon approach is highly welcome.

And cars would require a common deterministic link to run in an convoy each=
 of them a few centimeters distance to use the slipstream effect.


-        - Karl


Beckhoff Automation GmbH | Managing Director: Dipl. Phys. Hans Beckhoff, Ar=
nold Beckhoff
Registered office: Verl, Germany | Register court: G?tersloh HRB 1803

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Black, David
Sent: Montag, 22. September 2014 17:52
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Er=
ik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net); Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

Pascal,

This text looks promising.  Here are a few things to consider.

(1) How does this relate to IETF's focus on the public (capital-I) Internet=
?

- Would it be reasonable to envision deterministic networking running
over (suitably provisioned) Internet paths in a network, e.g.,
to connect related industrial sites?
- I'm reacting to "very controlled environment" at the end of the
      second paragraph in Background and suggesting some text to
      address the broader possibilities.

(2) I see a disconnect between the charter text's focus on "models"
and the two specific standards track protocol deliverables.

- This starts at the end of the background that seems to scope the
      work solely to models.  The proposed work is not just to
      produce models, but also protocol support for deterministic
      IP-based networking (some of which might take place in other
      WGs).

(3) Please add a sentence or two on how coordination with the IEEE
is envisioned to work.

- How do we ensure (or at least make it highly likely) that the IEEE
      and IETF develop and work with common models and requirements?
- This is about heading off divergence in advance, and might be as
      simple as key people participating in both organizations.

(4) For deliverables:

- I would combine the first two, so that the use cases support both
      the problem statement and high-level requirements.
- The IP scoping work feels like it's related to the solution taxonomy,
      but I'm not sure whether those should be combined.  At a minimum,
      the solution taxonomy should discuss the role of IP scope.
- There's probably some sequencing in the dates with the requirements
      and problem statement coming before the two standards-track
      documents.

(5) Flow characterization - between the third paragraph in the WG
description and the deliverable, I'm missing something about how the
"data model for flow characterization" is intended to be used.

- Suggestion: list reservation protocols with which the model could
be used (e.g., RSVP) as examples, making it clear that the WG
decides which ones are relevant.
- What is IEEE doing for flow reservation?  That should be mentioned.

(6) I wonder about committing this proposed WG to produce requirements
for work in other WGs.

- Some flexibility and lazy evaluation of where to do work may be
      better.
- I would suggest softening this language to talk about requirements
as deliverables, and discuss the possibility of work being
done in other WGs up in the main charter text.



Thanks,
--David

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (=
pthubert)
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 9:48 AM
To: Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic=
.net<mailto:nordmark@sonic.net>); Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com<mailto:akat=
las@gmail.com>)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

Dear all:

Please find below my latest and the txt version attached. I included (my un=
derstanding of) Anca's point (Thanks Anca!) as well as a multilayer/segment=
 discussion as stirred by George. I stole and adapted text from various pla=
ces, the original authors will recognize themselves : )



Background on deterministic networking


Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typicall=
y used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as well as move=
ment detection systems for use in Process Control (i.e., process manufactur=
ing) and Factory Automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its diff=
erent goals, OT has evolved totally in parallel and in a manner that is rad=
ically different from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and deter=
ministic networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.

The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Inter=
net, will represent a major evolution for both sides. The work has already =
started; in particular, the Industrial Automation space has been developing=
 a number of Ethernet-based "fieldbus" replacements, meant to provide "dete=
rminism", with the focus to transport a fully characterized flow over a ver=
y controlled environment (i.e., a "well regulated" factory floor), with a b=
ounded latency, a low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter.

In parallel, a high demand for a standard format drove the formation of the=
 Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the=
 professional and home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical ap=
plications, AVB networks share very similar characteristics. Other instance=
s of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for instance in the contex=
t of vehicles and avionics, with the mission-critical "Avionics Full-Duplex=
 Switched Ethernet" (AFDX) that was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standa=
rds. The work started at the IEEE802.1 to provide deterministic Ethernet A/=
V Bridging has now generalized and was renamed "Time Sensitive Networking" =
(TSN).

The IETF and the IEEE need now to collaborate and define an abstract model =
that can be applicable at Layer-2 and Layer-3 along segments of different t=
echnologies, for instance across a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges and th=
en a (limited) number of IP routers, such as 6TiSCH nodes which, by the way=
, operate on a different MAC/PHY. The model should enable fully scheduled o=
perations by a central controller, with capabilities such as zero congestio=
n loss and live-live parallel transmission for increased reliability, as we=
ll as a more distributed model similar to Intserv, though bounded in reach =
and possibilities.


WG description


The Working Group will focus on the signaling and forwarding models that ar=
e required to enable an end-to-end path with the Deterministic properties o=
f controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jitter, and High Reliabili=
ty, over a moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 network composed of IEEE8=
02.1 bridges, routers, and hosts, within a single administrative domain suc=
h as a campus or a Small/Home office Network.

The extent of the problem space for the WG includes the establishment and m=
aintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 bridged and Layer-3 routed segme=
nts, and though only Layer-3 operations will be specified in Standard Track=
 documents, the group will maintain consistency and compatibility with the =
concurrent work that is happening at IEEE802.1 TSN for the Layer-2 operatio=
ns.

The work will include the characterization and the marking of flows. It wil=
l apply to flows that can be well-characterized in a manner that allows to =
tightly reserve the appropriate network resources for the flows in advance,=
 and release/reuse the resources when they are not required.

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Inte=
rnet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Rout=
ing and Security areas.

Work Items


- Deliverables:

  * an analysis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 drafts=
 which would include process control, factory automation, planes and video =
studios)
  * A general problem statement including an analysis of the proposed solut=
ions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN, with a status of the work done an=
d left to be achieved, and the directions that are being taken.
  * A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explore=
d, such as Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), Centra=
l controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), Connection to Operations (App=
lication) Controllers, and Mixed scenarios.
  * requirement drafts will be produced for other WGs as deemed necessary, =
with for instance a requirement draft for the definition of a PHsB at the t=
ransport area.
  * a study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the defini=
tion of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (per RFC 7=
346) where for instance the deterministic technology is consistent over a L=
ink or a Realm Local Scope and achievable across technologies and layers ov=
er an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.

  ->  all those documents planned for informational track

  * a data model for flow characterization for use in flow reservation,
  * a flow identification for use in packet forwarding, with declination on=
 6TiSCH and MPLS.

  -> those would be standard track

Milestones


TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after chartering


Cheers,

Pascal

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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">David,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">A few cents regarding =
(1)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Industrial control is =
structured in several hierarchical levels.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">It would be difficult =
to put everything in a single LAN &#8211; thus, a structured system would b=
e fine and IETF may be a good choice to structure a machinery park.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The most important are=
a is the infrastructuring area: water, waste, electricity and transposrt.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Especially electricity=
 requires a highly deterministic network and it is definitely a WAN.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Wind parks/Virtual pow=
er plants are other examples in this areas.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">And electricity is a v=
ery important factor for the quality of production seamless interaction bet=
ween infrastructure and production will be a key success factor in the futu=
re &#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Motors and other equip=
ment may be used in infrastructure and industry &#8211; a common approach i=
s highly welcome.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">And cars would require=
 a common deterministic link to run in an convoy each of them a few centime=
ters distance to use the slipstream effect.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:20.4pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:=
Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">- Karl<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div><br>
<span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 8pt">B=
eckhoff Automation GmbH | Managing Director: Dipl. Phys. Hans Beckhoff, Arn=
old Beckhoff<br>
Registered office: Verl, Germany | Register court: G&uuml;tersloh HRB 1803<=
/span> <br>
<br>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> detnet [=
mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Black, David<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Montag, 22. September 2014 17:52<br>
<b>To:</b> Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfi=
nn); Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net); Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> detnet@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Pascal,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">This text looks promising.&nbsp; Here are a fe=
w things to consider.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(1) How does this relate to IETF&#8217;s focus=
 on the public (capital-I) Internet?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- Would it be reasonable to envision determini=
stic networking running<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">over (suitably pr=
ovisioned) Internet paths in a network, e.g.,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">to connect relate=
d industrial sites?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- I&#8217;m reacting to &#8220;very controlled=
 environment&#8221; at the end of the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; second paragrap=
h in Background and suggesting some text to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; address the bro=
ader possibilities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(2) I see a disconnect between the charter tex=
t&#8217;s focus on &#8220;models&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">and the two specific standards track protocol =
deliverables.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- This starts at the end of the background tha=
t seems to scope the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; work solely to =
models.&nbsp; The proposed work is not just to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; produce models,=
 but also protocol support for deterministic<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IP-based networ=
king (some of which might take place in other<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WGs).<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(3) Please add a sentence or two on how coordi=
nation with the IEEE<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">is envisioned to work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- How do we ensure (or at least make it highly=
 likely) that the IEEE<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and IETF develo=
p and work with common models and requirements?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- This is about heading off divergence in adva=
nce, and might be as<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; simple as key p=
eople participating in both organizations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(4) For deliverables:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- I would combine the first two, so that the u=
se cases support both<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the problem sta=
tement and high-level requirements.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- The IP scoping work feels like it&#8217;s re=
lated to the solution taxonomy,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; but I&#8217;m n=
ot sure whether those should be combined.&nbsp; At a minimum,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the solution ta=
xonomy should discuss the role of IP scope.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- There&#8217;s probably some sequencing in th=
e dates with the requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and problem sta=
tement coming before the two standards-track<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; documents.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(5) Flow characterization - between the third =
paragraph in the WG<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">description and the deliverable, I&#8217;m mis=
sing something about how the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&#8220;data model for flow characterization&#8=
221; is intended to be used.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- Suggestion: list reservation protocols with =
which the model could<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">be used (e.g., RS=
VP) as examples, making it clear that the WG<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">decides which one=
s are relevant.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- What is IEEE doing for flow reservation?&nbs=
p; That should be mentioned.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(6) I wonder about committing this proposed WG=
 to produce requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">for work in other WGs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- Some flexibility and lazy evaluation of wher=
e to do work may be<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; better.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- I would suggest softening this language to t=
alk about requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">as deliverables, =
and discuss the possibility of work being<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">done in other WGs=
 up in the main charter text.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Thanks,<br>
--David</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blac=
k"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> detnet [=
<a href=3D"mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Pascal Thubert (pthubert)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 22, 2014 9:48 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (<a href=
=3D"mailto:nordmark@sonic.net">nordmark@sonic.net</a>); Alia Atlas (<a href=
=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@gmail.com</a>)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Dear all:<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Please find below my l=
atest and the txt version attached. I included (my understanding of) Anca&#=
8217;s point (Thanks Anca!) as well as a multilayer/segment discussion as s=
tirred by George. I stole and adapted text
 from various places, the original authors will recognize themselves : )<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Background on determin=
istic networking
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Operational Technology=
 (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typically used for monitoring =
systems and supporting control loops, as well as movement detection systems=
 for use in Process Control (i.e., process
 manufacturing) and Factory Automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due =
to its different goals, OT has evolved totally in parallel and in a manner =
that is radically different from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliabl=
e and deterministic networks, with
 limited scalability over a bounded area.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The convergence of IT =
and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Internet, will represent a =
major evolution for both sides. The work has already started; in particular=
, the Industrial Automation space has
 been developing a number of Ethernet-based &#8220;fieldbus&#8221; replacem=
ents, meant to provide &#8220;determinism&#8221;, with the focus to transpo=
rt a fully characterized flow over a very controlled environment (i.e., a &=
#8220;well regulated&#8221; factory floor), with a bounded latency,
 a low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">In parallel, a high de=
mand for a standard format drove the formation of the Audio/Video Bridging =
(AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the professional and home=
 audio/video markets. While aimed at
 less critical applications, AVB networks share very similar characteristic=
s. Other instances of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for insta=
nce in the context of vehicles and avionics, with the mission-critical &#82=
20;Avionics Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet&#8221;
 (AFDX) that was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standards. The work start=
ed at the IEEE802.1 to provide deterministic Ethernet A/V Bridging has now =
generalized and was renamed &quot;Time Sensitive Networking&quot; (TSN).<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The IETF and the IEEE =
need now to collaborate and define an abstract model that can be applicable=
 at Layer-2 and Layer-3 along segments of different technologies, for insta=
nce across a (limited) number of 802.1
 bridges and then a (limited) number of IP routers, such as 6TiSCH nodes wh=
ich, by the way, operate on a different MAC/PHY. The model should enable fu=
lly scheduled operations by a central controller, with capabilities such as=
 zero congestion loss and live-live
 parallel transmission for increased reliability, as well as a more distrib=
uted model similar to Intserv, though bounded in reach and possibilities.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">WG description<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The Working Group will=
 focus on the signaling and forwarding models that are required to enable a=
n end-to-end path with the Deterministic properties of controlled latency, =
low packet loss, ultra-low jitter, and
 High Reliability, over a moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 network co=
mposed of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts, within a single administra=
tive domain such as a campus or a Small/Home office Network.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The extent of the prob=
lem space for the WG includes the establishment and maintenance of multi-ho=
p paths over Layer-2 bridged and Layer-3 routed segments, and though only L=
ayer-3 operations will be specified
 in Standard Track documents, the group will maintain consistency and compa=
tibility with the concurrent work that is happening at IEEE802.1 TSN for th=
e Layer-2 operations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The work will include =
the characterization and the marking of flows. It will apply to flows that =
can be well-characterized in a manner that allows to tightly reserve the ap=
propriate network resources for the
 flows in advance, and release/reuse the resources when they are not requir=
ed. <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The WG will interface =
with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Internet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Tr=
ansport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Routing and Security areas=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Work Items<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">- Deliverables:<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* an analy=
sis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 drafts which would=
 include process control, factory automation, planes and video studios)<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp; * A general pro=
blem statement including an analysis of the proposed solutions of the relat=
ed work at IEEE802.1TSN, with a status of the work done and left to be achi=
eved, and the directions that are being taken.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp; * A solution ta=
xonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explored, such as Peer-t=
o-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), Central controller (alo=
ng the lines of SDN or PCE), Connection to
 Operations (Application) Controllers, and Mixed scenarios.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp; * requirement d=
rafts will be produced for other WGs as deemed necessary, with for instance=
 a requirement draft for the definition of a PHsB at the transport area.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp; * a study of ge=
neric scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the definition of Link-Loca=
l, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (per RFC 7346) where for in=
stance the deterministic technology is consistent
 over a Link or a Realm Local Scope and achievable across technologies and =
layers over an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;-&gt;&nbsp=
; all those documents planned for informational track
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* a data m=
odel for flow characterization for use in flow reservation,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* a flow i=
dentification for use in packet forwarding, with declination on 6TiSCH and =
MPLS.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;-&gt; thos=
e would be standard track<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Milestones<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">TBD, probably all draf=
ts to IESG one year after chartering<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Pascal<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com>
To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] What we need to get a BOF in November
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From nobody Mon Sep 22 14:07:35 2014
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From: "Black, David" <david.black@emc.com>
To: Karl Weber <karl.weber@beckhoff.com>, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, "Anca Zamfir (ancaz)" <ancaz@cisco.com>, "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>, "Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net)" <nordmark@sonic.net>, "Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)" <akatlas@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 17:06:55 -0400
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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References: <E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DD02A1@xmb-rcd-x01.cisco.com> <D0423592.BCF20%ancaz@cisco.com> <E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DD0490@xmb-rcd-x01.cisco.com> <E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DD37DC@xmb-rcd-x01.cisco.com> <8D3D17ACE214DC429325B2B98F3AE712077D7257EF@MX15A.corp.emc.com> <D9ED6EFFD521184F9866EC6A9C4B0DCD93EEA20D@nt-mail04>
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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--_000_8D3D17ACE214DC429325B2B98F3AE712077D7258DFMX15Acorpemcc_
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Karl,

Nice explanation - I think it'd be good for the charter to include that sor=
t of hierarchy discussion.  The possibility of using the Internet to interc=
onnect the local networks would definitely help to connect this proposed wo=
rk to the IETF's mission.

Thanks,
--David

From: Karl Weber [mailto:karl.weber@beckhoff.com]
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 12:38 PM
To: Black, David; Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Fi=
nn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net); Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.c=
om)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

David,

A few cents regarding (1)
Industrial control is structured in several hierarchical levels.
It would be difficult to put everything in a single LAN - thus, a structure=
d system would be fine and IETF may be a good choice to structure a machine=
ry park.

The most important area is the infrastructuring area: water, waste, electri=
city and transposrt.
Especially electricity requires a highly deterministic network and it is de=
finitely a WAN.
Wind parks/Virtual power plants are other examples in this areas.

And electricity is a very important factor for the quality of production se=
amless interaction between infrastructure and production will be a key succ=
ess factor in the future ...

Motors and other equipment may be used in infrastructure and industry - a c=
ommon approach is highly welcome.

And cars would require a common deterministic link to run in an convoy each=
 of them a few centimeters distance to use the slipstream effect.


-          - Karl


Beckhoff Automation GmbH | Managing Director: Dipl. Phys. Hans Beckhoff, Ar=
nold Beckhoff
Registered office: Verl, Germany | Register court: G=FCtersloh HRB 1803
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Black, David
Sent: Montag, 22. September 2014 17:52
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Er=
ik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net<mailto:nordmark@sonic.net>); Alia Atlas (ak=
atlas@gmail.com<mailto:akatlas@gmail.com>)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

Pascal,

This text looks promising.  Here are a few things to consider.

(1) How does this relate to IETF's focus on the public (capital-I) Internet=
?

- Would it be reasonable to envision deterministic networking running
over (suitably provisioned) Internet paths in a network, e.g.,
to connect related industrial sites?
- I'm reacting to "very controlled environment" at the end of the
      second paragraph in Background and suggesting some text to
      address the broader possibilities.

(2) I see a disconnect between the charter text's focus on "models"
and the two specific standards track protocol deliverables.

- This starts at the end of the background that seems to scope the
      work solely to models.  The proposed work is not just to
      produce models, but also protocol support for deterministic
      IP-based networking (some of which might take place in other
      WGs).

(3) Please add a sentence or two on how coordination with the IEEE
is envisioned to work.

- How do we ensure (or at least make it highly likely) that the IEEE
      and IETF develop and work with common models and requirements?
- This is about heading off divergence in advance, and might be as
      simple as key people participating in both organizations.

(4) For deliverables:

- I would combine the first two, so that the use cases support both
      the problem statement and high-level requirements.
- The IP scoping work feels like it's related to the solution taxonomy,
      but I'm not sure whether those should be combined.  At a minimum,
      the solution taxonomy should discuss the role of IP scope.
- There's probably some sequencing in the dates with the requirements
      and problem statement coming before the two standards-track
      documents.

(5) Flow characterization - between the third paragraph in the WG
description and the deliverable, I'm missing something about how the
"data model for flow characterization" is intended to be used.

- Suggestion: list reservation protocols with which the model could
be used (e.g., RSVP) as examples, making it clear that the WG
decides which ones are relevant.
- What is IEEE doing for flow reservation?  That should be mentioned.

(6) I wonder about committing this proposed WG to produce requirements
for work in other WGs.

- Some flexibility and lazy evaluation of where to do work may be
      better.
- I would suggest softening this language to talk about requirements
as deliverables, and discuss the possibility of work being
done in other WGs up in the main charter text.



Thanks,
--David

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (=
pthubert)
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 9:48 AM
To: Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic=
.net<mailto:nordmark@sonic.net>); Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com<mailto:akat=
las@gmail.com>)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

Dear all:

Please find below my latest and the txt version attached. I included (my un=
derstanding of) Anca's point (Thanks Anca!) as well as a multilayer/segment=
 discussion as stirred by George. I stole and adapted text from various pla=
ces, the original authors will recognize themselves : )



Background on deterministic networking


Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typicall=
y used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as well as move=
ment detection systems for use in Process Control (i.e., process manufactur=
ing) and Factory Automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its diff=
erent goals, OT has evolved totally in parallel and in a manner that is rad=
ically different from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and deter=
ministic networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.

The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Inter=
net, will represent a major evolution for both sides. The work has already =
started; in particular, the Industrial Automation space has been developing=
 a number of Ethernet-based "fieldbus" replacements, meant to provide "dete=
rminism", with the focus to transport a fully characterized flow over a ver=
y controlled environment (i.e., a "well regulated" factory floor), with a b=
ounded latency, a low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter.

In parallel, a high demand for a standard format drove the formation of the=
 Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the=
 professional and home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical ap=
plications, AVB networks share very similar characteristics. Other instance=
s of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for instance in the contex=
t of vehicles and avionics, with the mission-critical "Avionics Full-Duplex=
 Switched Ethernet" (AFDX) that was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standa=
rds. The work started at the IEEE802.1 to provide deterministic Ethernet A/=
V Bridging has now generalized and was renamed "Time Sensitive Networking" =
(TSN).

The IETF and the IEEE need now to collaborate and define an abstract model =
that can be applicable at Layer-2 and Layer-3 along segments of different t=
echnologies, for instance across a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges and th=
en a (limited) number of IP routers, such as 6TiSCH nodes which, by the way=
, operate on a different MAC/PHY. The model should enable fully scheduled o=
perations by a central controller, with capabilities such as zero congestio=
n loss and live-live parallel transmission for increased reliability, as we=
ll as a more distributed model similar to Intserv, though bounded in reach =
and possibilities.


WG description


The Working Group will focus on the signaling and forwarding models that ar=
e required to enable an end-to-end path with the Deterministic properties o=
f controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jitter, and High Reliabili=
ty, over a moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 network composed of IEEE8=
02.1 bridges, routers, and hosts, within a single administrative domain suc=
h as a campus or a Small/Home office Network.

The extent of the problem space for the WG includes the establishment and m=
aintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 bridged and Layer-3 routed segme=
nts, and though only Layer-3 operations will be specified in Standard Track=
 documents, the group will maintain consistency and compatibility with the =
concurrent work that is happening at IEEE802.1 TSN for the Layer-2 operatio=
ns.

The work will include the characterization and the marking of flows. It wil=
l apply to flows that can be well-characterized in a manner that allows to =
tightly reserve the appropriate network resources for the flows in advance,=
 and release/reuse the resources when they are not required.

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Inte=
rnet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Rout=
ing and Security areas.

Work Items


- Deliverables:

  * an analysis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 drafts=
 which would include process control, factory automation, planes and video =
studios)
  * A general problem statement including an analysis of the proposed solut=
ions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN, with a status of the work done an=
d left to be achieved, and the directions that are being taken.
  * A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explore=
d, such as Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), Centra=
l controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), Connection to Operations (App=
lication) Controllers, and Mixed scenarios.
  * requirement drafts will be produced for other WGs as deemed necessary, =
with for instance a requirement draft for the definition of a PHsB at the t=
ransport area.
  * a study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the defini=
tion of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (per RFC 7=
346) where for instance the deterministic technology is consistent over a L=
ink or a Realm Local Scope and achievable across technologies and layers ov=
er an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.

  ->  all those documents planned for informational track

  * a data model for flow characterization for use in flow reservation,
  * a flow identification for use in packet forwarding, with declination on=
 6TiSCH and MPLS.

  -> those would be standard track

Milestones


TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after chartering


Cheers,

Pascal

--_000_8D3D17ACE214DC429325B2B98F3AE712077D7258DFMX15Acorpemcc_
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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Karl,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Co=
urier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Nice e=
xplanation - I think it&#8217;d be good for the charter to include that sor=
t of hierarchy discussion.=A0 The possibility of using the Internet to inte=
rconnect the local networks would definitely help to connect this proposed =
work to the IETF&#8217;s mission.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Thanks,<br>--David</spa=
n><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'b=
order:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><di=
v style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in=
 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Karl Weber [mailto:karl.weber@beckhoff.com] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 22, 2014 12:38 PM<br><b>To:</b> Black, D=
avid; Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); =
Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net); Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)<br><b>Cc=
:</b> detnet@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Detnet] draft charter skeleto=
n - with some meat on it<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'=
>David,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F4=
97D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:=
#1F497D'>A few cents regarding (1)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Industrial control is structured in several=
 hierarchical levels.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'color:#1F497D'>It would be difficult to put everything in a single LAN =
&#8211; thus, a structured system would be fine and IETF may be a good choi=
ce to structure a machinery park.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The most important area is the infrastru=
cturing area: water, waste, electricity and transposrt.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Especially electricity=
 requires a highly deterministic network and it is definitely a WAN.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Wind park=
s/Virtual power plants are other examples in this areas.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>And electricity i=
s a very important factor for the quality of production seamless interactio=
n between infrastructure and production will be a key success factor in the=
 future &#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'co=
lor:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'color:#1F497D'>Motors and other equipment may be used in infrastructure=
 and industry &#8211; a common approach is highly welcome.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>And cars would =
require a common deterministic link to run in an convoy each of them a few =
centimeters distance to use the slipstream effect.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:20.4pt;text-indent:-.25in=
;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D=
'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Rom=
an"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span><=
/span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>- Karl<o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=3D'=
font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><br></span><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Beckhoff Automatio=
n GmbH | Managing Director: Dipl. Phys. Hans Beckhoff, Arnold Beckhoff<br>R=
egistered office: Verl, Germany | Register court: G=FCtersloh HRB 1803</spa=
n><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> <=
o:p></o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0=
pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> detnet [<a href=3D=
"mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Black, David<br><b>Sent:</b> Montag, 22. September 2014 17:52=
<br><b>To:</b> Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn =
(nfinn); Erik Nordmark (<a href=3D"mailto:nordmark@sonic.net">nordmark@soni=
c.net</a>); Alia Atlas (<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@gmail.=
com</a>)<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</=
a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat =
on it<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Cou=
rier New";color:black'>Pascal,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>This text looks promising.&nbsp; Her=
e are a few things to consider.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>(1) How does this relate to IETF&#8=
217;s focus on the public (capital-I) Internet?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";co=
lor:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- Would it be reaso=
nable to envision deterministic networking running<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>over (suitably provisioned) Intern=
et paths in a network, e.g.,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal styl=
e=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier=
 New";color:black'>to connect related industrial sites?<o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier=
 New";color:black'>- I&#8217;m reacting to &#8220;very controlled environme=
nt&#8221; at the end of the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
 style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; second paragraph in Background and suggesting some te=
xt to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
address the broader possibilities.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>(2) I see a disconnect between t=
he charter text&#8217;s focus on &#8220;models&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier N=
ew";color:black'>and the two specific standards track protocol deliverables=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";col=
or:black'>- This starts at the end of the background that seems to scope th=
e<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; work=
 solely to models.&nbsp; The proposed work is not just to<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Couri=
er New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; produce models, but als=
o protocol support for deterministic<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IP-based networking (some of which might tak=
e place in other<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; WGs).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"C=
ourier New";color:black'>(3) Please add a sentence or two on how coordinati=
on with the IEEE<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>is envisioned to wor=
k.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";co=
lor:black'>- How do we ensure (or at least make it highly likely) that the =
IEEE<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a=
nd IETF develop and work with common models and requirements?<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"C=
ourier New";color:black'>- This is about heading off divergence in advance,=
 and might be as<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; simple as key people participating in both organizations.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black=
'>(4) For deliverables:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Courier New";color:black'>- I would combine the first two, so that th=
e use cases support both<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the problem statement and high-level requirements.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:"Courier New";color:black'>- The IP scoping work feels like it&#8217;=
s related to the solution taxonomy,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; but I&#8217;m not sure whether those should b=
e combined.&nbsp; At a minimum,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the solution taxonomy should discuss the role of =
IP scope.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- There&#8217;s probably so=
me sequencing in the dates with the requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";c=
olor:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and problem statement coming bef=
ore the two standards-track<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
 style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; documents.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>(5) Flow characterization - betwee=
n the third paragraph in the WG<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>descr=
iption and the deliverable, I&#8217;m missing something about how the<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:"Courier New";color:black'>&#8220;data model for flow characterizatio=
n&#8221; is intended to be used.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- Suggestion: list reservation pro=
tocols with which the model could<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
 style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Co=
urier New";color:black'>be used (e.g., RSVP) as examples, making it clear t=
hat the WG<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.=
5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'=
>decides which ones are relevant.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- W=
hat is IEEE doing for flow reservation?&nbsp; That should be mentioned.<o:p=
></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:bl=
ack'>(6) I wonder about committing this proposed WG to produce requirements=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>for work in other WGs.<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"C=
ourier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- Som=
e flexibility and lazy evaluation of where to do work may be<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Co=
urier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; better.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
Courier New";color:black'>- I would suggest softening this language to talk=
 about requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text=
-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";col=
or:black'>as deliverables, and discuss the possibility of work being<o:p></=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>done in other W=
Gs up in the main charter text.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier N=
ew";color:black'>Thanks,<br>--David</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Couri=
er New";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1=
.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:s=
olid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span=
 style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> detn=
et [<a href=3D"mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Pascal Thubert (pthubert)<br><b>Sent:</b> Monda=
y, September 22, 2014 9:48 AM<br><b>To:</b> Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Fin=
n (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (<a href=3D"mailto:nordmark@sonic.net">nordmark@so=
nic.net</a>); Alia Atlas (<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@gmai=
l.com</a>)<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org=
</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some mea=
t on it<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Dear all:<o:p></=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Pleas=
e find below my latest and the txt version attached. I included (my underst=
anding of) Anca&#8217;s point (Thanks Anca!) as well as a multilayer/segmen=
t discussion as stirred by George. I stole and adapted text from various pl=
aces, the original authors will recognize themselves : )<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtex=
t 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'colo=
r:#1F497D'>Background on deterministic networking <o:p></o:p></span></p></d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Operational T=
echnology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typically used for mo=
nitoring systems and supporting control loops, as well as movement detectio=
n systems for use in Process Control (i.e., process manufacturing) and Fact=
ory Automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its different goals, =
OT has evolved totally in parallel and in a manner that is radically differ=
ent from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and deterministic netw=
orks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The convergence of IT =
and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Internet, will represent a =
major evolution for both sides. The work has already started; in particular=
, the Industrial Automation space has been developing a number of Ethernet-=
based &#8220;fieldbus&#8221; replacements, meant to provide &#8220;determin=
ism&#8221;, with the focus to transport a fully characterized flow over a v=
ery controlled environment (i.e., a &#8220;well regulated&#8221; factory fl=
oor), with a bounded latency, a low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>=
In parallel, a high demand for a standard format drove the formation of the=
 Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the=
 professional and home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical ap=
plications, AVB networks share very similar characteristics. Other instance=
s of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for instance in the contex=
t of vehicles and avionics, with the mission-critical &#8220;Avionics Full-=
Duplex Switched Ethernet&#8221; (AFDX) that was designed as part of the ARI=
C 664 standards. The work started at the IEEE802.1 to provide deterministic=
 Ethernet A/V Bridging has now generalized and was renamed &quot;Time Sensi=
tive Networking&quot; (TSN).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The IETF and the IEEE need now to collaborate=
 and define an abstract model that can be applicable at Layer-2 and Layer-3=
 along segments of different technologies, for instance across a (limited) =
number of 802.1 bridges and then a (limited) number of IP routers, such as =
6TiSCH nodes which, by the way, operate on a different MAC/PHY. The model s=
hould enable fully scheduled operations by a central controller, with capab=
ilities such as zero congestion loss and live-live parallel transmission fo=
r increased reliability, as well as a more distributed model similar to Int=
serv, though bounded in reach and possibilities.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p><div style=3D'border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0=
in 0in 1.0pt 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>WG des=
cription<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'col=
or:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'color:#1F497D'>The Working Group will focus on the signaling and forwa=
rding models that are required to enable an end-to-end path with the Determ=
inistic properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jitter=
, and High Reliability, over a moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 netwo=
rk composed of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts, within a single admin=
istrative domain such as a campus or a Small/Home office Network.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The exte=
nt of the problem space for the WG includes the establishment and maintenan=
ce of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 bridged and Layer-3 routed segments, and=
 though only Layer-3 operations will be specified in Standard Track documen=
ts, the group will maintain consistency and compatibility with the concurre=
nt work that is happening at IEEE802.1 TSN for the Layer-2 operations.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The=
 work will include the characterization and the marking of flows. It will a=
pply to flows that can be well-characterized in a manner that allows to tig=
htly reserve the appropriate network resources for the flows in advance, an=
d release/reuse the resources when they are not required. <o:p></o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The WG will int=
erface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Internet (e.g. 6TiS=
CH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Routing and Securit=
y areas.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F=
497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-bottom:s=
olid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
 style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Work Items<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>- Deliverables:<o:p></o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp=
;* an analysis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 drafts =
which would include process control, factory automation, planes and video s=
tudios)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F4=
97D'>&nbsp; * A general problem statement including an analysis of the prop=
osed solutions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN, with a status of the wo=
rk done and left to be achieved, and the directions that are being taken.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbs=
p; * A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explor=
ed, such as Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), Centr=
al controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), Connection to Operations (Ap=
plication) Controllers, and Mixed scenarios.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp; * requirement drafts will=
 be produced for other WGs as deemed necessary, with for instance a require=
ment draft for the definition of a PHsB at the transport area.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp; * a stud=
y of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the definition of Li=
nk-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (per RFC 7346) where=
 for instance the deterministic technology is consistent over a Link or a R=
ealm Local Scope and achievable across technologies and layers over an Admi=
n-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;-&gt=
;&nbsp; all those documents planned for informational track <o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;*=
 a data model for flow characterization for use in flow reservation, <o:p><=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&n=
bsp;* a flow identification for use in packet forwarding, with declination =
on 6TiSCH and MPLS. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;-&gt; those would be standard track<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-bottom:solid windowte=
xt 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'col=
or:#1F497D'>Milestones<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year=
 after chartering<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'color:#1F497D'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Pascal<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></d=
iv></div></body></html>=

--_000_8D3D17ACE214DC429325B2B98F3AE712077D7258DFMX15Acorpemcc_--


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Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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Pascal,

There is useful information in this charter. But when I look at the 
deliverables it reads as if the WG will work for a few years and produce 
various documents, but not much in terms of standards and associated 
creation of interoperable implementations.

A key question for me is how do we see the network operating differently 
as a result of DETNET; I assume some protocols need to be changed in 
some ways. Understanding how we see it working differently is key in 
understanding the architectural impact as well.
Thus I'd definitely would like some more concrete details and a clear 
path towards useful things being standardized and implemented.

Norm's slides had more specifics. For example the need to be able to say 
"no" i.e. some form of admission control. The proposed text talks about 
that in the form of a solutions taxonomy. But if we want to accomplish 
something more than documents, I think the path needs to include the WG 
choosing a protocol (or possibly choosing a separate protocol for a 
distributed vs. a centralized approach); keep in mind that we get 
interoperability by making decisions that lead to a small set of 
mandatory to implement protocols and options.

The ADs might want to manage the charter in a step-wise way with some 
initial set of documents before a WG can work on picking a solution. But 
I would strive to make that initial set of documents small with crisp 
content.

My 2 cents,
    Erik

On 9/22/14 6:48 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
>
> Dear all:
>
> Please find below my latest and the txt version attached. I included 
> (my understanding of) Anca’s point (Thanks Anca!) as well as a 
> multilayer/segment discussion as stirred by George. I stole and 
> adapted text from various places, the original authors will recognize 
> themselves : )
>
> Background on deterministic networking
>
> Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are 
> typically used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as 
> well as movement detection systems for use in Process Control (i.e., 
> process manufacturing) and Factory Automation (i.e., discrete 
> manufacturing). Due to its different goals, OT has evolved totally in 
> parallel and in a manner that is radically different from IT/ICT, 
> focusing on highly secure, reliable and deterministic networks, with 
> limited scalability over a bounded area.
>
> The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial 
> Internet, will represent a major evolution for both sides. The work 
> has already started; in particular, the Industrial Automation space 
> has been developing a number of Ethernet-based “fieldbus” 
> replacements, meant to provide “determinism”, with the focus to 
> transport a fully characterized flow over a very controlled 
> environment (i.e., a “well regulated” factory floor), with a bounded 
> latency, a low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter.
>
> In parallel, a high demand for a standard format drove the formation 
> of the Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, 
> destined to the professional and home audio/video markets. While aimed 
> at less critical applications, AVB networks share very similar 
> characteristics. Other instances of deterministic networks have arisen 
> as well, for instance in the context of vehicles and avionics, with 
> the mission-critical “Avionics Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet” (AFDX) 
> that was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standards. The work started 
> at the IEEE802.1 to provide deterministic Ethernet A/V Bridging has 
> now generalized and was renamed "Time Sensitive Networking" (TSN).
>
> The IETF and the IEEE need now to collaborate and define an abstract 
> model that can be applicable at Layer-2 and Layer-3 along segments of 
> different technologies, for instance across a (limited) number of 
> 802.1 bridges and then a (limited) number of IP routers, such as 
> 6TiSCH nodes which, by the way, operate on a different MAC/PHY. The 
> model should enable fully scheduled operations by a central 
> controller, with capabilities such as zero congestion loss and 
> live-live parallel transmission for increased reliability, as well as 
> a more distributed model similar to Intserv, though bounded in reach 
> and possibilities.
>
> WG description
>
> The Working Group will focus on the signaling and forwarding models 
> that are required to enable an end-to-end path with the Deterministic 
> properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jitter, 
> and High Reliability, over a moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 
> network composed of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts, within a 
> single administrative domain such as a campus or a Small/Home office 
> Network.
>
> The extent of the problem space for the WG includes the establishment 
> and maintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 bridged and Layer-3 
> routed segments, and though only Layer-3 operations will be specified 
> in Standard Track documents, the group will maintain consistency and 
> compatibility with the concurrent work that is happening at IEEE802.1 
> TSN for the Layer-2 operations.
>
> The work will include the characterization and the marking of flows. 
> It will apply to flows that can be well-characterized in a manner that 
> allows to tightly reserve the appropriate network resources for the 
> flows in advance, and release/reuse the resources when they are not 
> required.
>
> The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the 
> Internet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and 
> Management, Routing and Security areas.
>
> Work Items
>
> - Deliverables:
>
>   * an analysis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 
> drafts which would include process control, factory automation, planes 
> and video studios)
>
>   * A general problem statement including an analysis of the proposed 
> solutions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN, with a status of the 
> work done and left to be achieved, and the directions that are being 
> taken.
>
>   * A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be 
> explored, such as Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or 
> RSVP), Central controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), Connection 
> to Operations (Application) Controllers, and Mixed scenarios.
>
>   * requirement drafts will be produced for other WGs as deemed 
> necessary, with for instance a requirement draft for the definition of 
> a PHsB at the transport area.
>
>   * a study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the 
> definition of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation 
> (per RFC 7346) where for instance the deterministic technology is 
> consistent over a Link or a Realm Local Scope and achievable across 
> technologies and layers over an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping 
> will be studied for IPv4.
>
>   ->  all those documents planned for informational track
>
>   * a data model for flow characterization for use in flow reservation,
>
>   * a flow identification for use in packet forwarding, with 
> declination on 6TiSCH and MPLS.
>
>   -> those would be standard track
>
> Milestones
>
> TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after chartering
>
> Cheers,
>
> Pascal
>


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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Black, David" <david.black@emc.com>, Karl Weber <karl.weber@beckhoff.com>, "Anca Zamfir (ancaz)" <ancaz@cisco.com>, "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>, "Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net)" <nordmark@sonic.net>, "Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)" <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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So much content here!

Many thanks to both of you. Addressing this and Karl's point:

(1) How does this relate to IETF's focus on the public (capital-I) Internet=
?

- Would it be reasonable to envision deterministic networking running
over (suitably provisioned) Internet paths in a network, e.g.,
to connect related industrial sites?
- I'm reacting to "very controlled environment" at the end of the
      second paragraph in Background and suggesting some text to
      address the broader possibilities.


I'm a bit concerned about knee jerks on complexity in particular related to=
 interdomain, IOW I'd rather stay closer to a diffserv scope than an intser=
v where the whole network needs to understand the tags in a consistent fash=
ion. What about adding in the background something like:

"The integration of determinism in Internet Technology becomes a necessity =
as deterministic networks become structured, and require forwarding beyond =
LAN boundaries. For instance, Industrial Automation segregates the network =
along the broad lines of the Purdue Enterprise Reference Architecture (PERA=
), using different technologies at each level, and public infrastructures s=
uch as Electricity Automation require deterministic properties over the Wid=
e Area. "

In the WG descrition, we could also modify the first sentence to:
"
The Working Group will initially focus on the signaling and packet tagging =
that are required to enable and forward along an end-to-end path with the d=
eterministic properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low j=
itter, and High Reliability. The network will initially be of moderate size=
, composed of mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 sub-networks of IEEE802.1 bridges, ro=
uters, and hosts. A single administrative domain such as a campus, a Small/=
Home office Network, or a controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to s=
tart with, and approaches that can be applied to the Internet at large will=
 be favored.
"


(2) I see a disconnect between the charter text's focus on "models"
and the two specific standards track protocol deliverables.

- This starts at the end of the background that seems to scope the
      work solely to models.  The proposed work is not just to
      produce models, but also protocol support for deterministic
      IP-based networking (some of which might take place in other
      WGs).

Yes, I think I see what you're saying. My point is that the work on the dat=
a model for signaling elements and a study of state and tagging can start b=
efore the architectural model is fully understood. For one thing, the work =
on deterministic PHB has already started at TSVWG, and a study on generaliz=
ing MLPS labels can also start now. What about changing the last paragraph =
to:

"
In order to serve those needs, the IETF and the IEEE need to collaborate an=
d define an abstract model that can be applicable at Layer-2 and Layer-3 al=
ong segments of different technologies. With this new work, a path may span=
 for instance across a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges and then a (limite=
d) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE802.1 bridges may be oper=
ating at Layer-2 over Ethernet whereas the IP routers may be 6TiSCH nodes o=
perating at Layer-2 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.15.4e MAC. The proposed=
 model should enable fully scheduled operations by a central controller, wi=
th capabilities such as zero congestion loss and live-live parallel transmi=
ssion for increased reliability, as well as a more distributed model simila=
r to Intserv, though bounded in reach and possibilities.
In parallel to the definition of the abstract model, the IETF needs also to=
 define tagging and signaling elements to be used to establish a path and i=
dentify the flows, and how they can be instantiated on relevant technologie=
s such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH.
"

(3) Please add a sentence or two on how coordination with the IEEE
is envisioned to work.

- How do we ensure (or at least make it highly likely) that the IEEE
      and IETF develop and work with common models and requirements?
- This is about heading off divergence in advance, and might be as
      simple as key people participating in both organizations.

In practice, we already have Pat Thaler participating, and a number of memb=
ers who participate to both. So I'm not too anxious there.
Still, yes, this needs to be clarified. What about updating the second sent=
ence to:
"
The extent of the problem space for the WG includes the establishment and m=
aintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-3 routed segme=
nts. Though only Layer-3 operations will be specified in Standard Track doc=
uments, the group will maintain consistency and compatibility with the conc=
urrent work that is happening at IEEE802.1 TSN for the Layer-2 operations, =
leveraging cross-participation and liaison work.
"

I'm still working on the last 3 items, but I wanted to share this already. =
Following up later in the day.

Cheers,

Pascal

From: Black, David [mailto:david.black@emc.com]
Sent: lundi 22 septembre 2014 23:07
To: Karl Weber; Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn=
 (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net); Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com=
)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

Karl,

Nice explanation - I think it'd be good for the charter to include that sor=
t of hierarchy discussion.  The possibility of using the Internet to interc=
onnect the local networks would definitely help to connect this proposed wo=
rk to the IETF's mission.

Thanks,
--David

From: Karl Weber [mailto:karl.weber@beckhoff.com]
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 12:38 PM
To: Black, David; Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Fi=
nn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net<mailto:nordmark@sonic.net>); =
Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com<mailto:akatlas@gmail.com>)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

David,

A few cents regarding (1)
Industrial control is structured in several hierarchical levels.
It would be difficult to put everything in a single LAN - thus, a structure=
d system would be fine and IETF may be a good choice to structure a machine=
ry park.

The most important area is the infrastructuring area: water, waste, electri=
city and transposrt.
Especially electricity requires a highly deterministic network and it is de=
finitely a WAN.
Wind parks/Virtual power plants are other examples in this areas.

And electricity is a very important factor for the quality of production se=
amless interaction between infrastructure and production will be a key succ=
ess factor in the future ...

Motors and other equipment may be used in infrastructure and industry - a c=
ommon approach is highly welcome.

And cars would require a common deterministic link to run in an convoy each=
 of them a few centimeters distance to use the slipstream effect.


-        - Karl


Beckhoff Automation GmbH | Managing Director: Dipl. Phys. Hans Beckhoff, Ar=
nold Beckhoff
Registered office: Verl, Germany | Register court: G=FCtersloh HRB 1803
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Black, David
Sent: Montag, 22. September 2014 17:52
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Er=
ik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net<mailto:nordmark@sonic.net>); Alia Atlas (ak=
atlas@gmail.com<mailto:akatlas@gmail.com>)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

Pascal,

This text looks promising.  Here are a few things to consider.

(1) How does this relate to IETF's focus on the public (capital-I) Internet=
?

- Would it be reasonable to envision deterministic networking running
over (suitably provisioned) Internet paths in a network, e.g.,
to connect related industrial sites?
- I'm reacting to "very controlled environment" at the end of the
      second paragraph in Background and suggesting some text to
      address the broader possibilities.

(2) I see a disconnect between the charter text's focus on "models"
and the two specific standards track protocol deliverables.

- This starts at the end of the background that seems to scope the
      work solely to models.  The proposed work is not just to
      produce models, but also protocol support for deterministic
      IP-based networking (some of which might take place in other
      WGs).

(3) Please add a sentence or two on how coordination with the IEEE
is envisioned to work.

- How do we ensure (or at least make it highly likely) that the IEEE
      and IETF develop and work with common models and requirements?
- This is about heading off divergence in advance, and might be as
      simple as key people participating in both organizations.

(4) For deliverables:

- I would combine the first two, so that the use cases support both
      the problem statement and high-level requirements.
- The IP scoping work feels like it's related to the solution taxonomy,
      but I'm not sure whether those should be combined.  At a minimum,
      the solution taxonomy should discuss the role of IP scope.
- There's probably some sequencing in the dates with the requirements
      and problem statement coming before the two standards-track
      documents.

(5) Flow characterization - between the third paragraph in the WG
description and the deliverable, I'm missing something about how the
"data model for flow characterization" is intended to be used.

- Suggestion: list reservation protocols with which the model could
be used (e.g., RSVP) as examples, making it clear that the WG
decides which ones are relevant.
- What is IEEE doing for flow reservation?  That should be mentioned.

(6) I wonder about committing this proposed WG to produce requirements
for work in other WGs.

- Some flexibility and lazy evaluation of where to do work may be
      better.
- I would suggest softening this language to talk about requirements
as deliverables, and discuss the possibility of work being
done in other WGs up in the main charter text.



Thanks,
--David

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (=
pthubert)
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 9:48 AM
To: Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic=
.net<mailto:nordmark@sonic.net>); Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com<mailto:akat=
las@gmail.com>)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

Dear all:

Please find below my latest and the txt version attached. I included (my un=
derstanding of) Anca's point (Thanks Anca!) as well as a multilayer/segment=
 discussion as stirred by George. I stole and adapted text from various pla=
ces, the original authors will recognize themselves : )



Background on deterministic networking


Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typicall=
y used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as well as move=
ment detection systems for use in Process Control (i.e., process manufactur=
ing) and Factory Automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its diff=
erent goals, OT has evolved totally in parallel and in a manner that is rad=
ically different from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and deter=
ministic networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.

The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Inter=
net, will represent a major evolution for both sides. The work has already =
started; in particular, the Industrial Automation space has been developing=
 a number of Ethernet-based "fieldbus" replacements, meant to provide "dete=
rminism", with the focus to transport a fully characterized flow over a ver=
y controlled environment (i.e., a "well regulated" factory floor), with a b=
ounded latency, a low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter.

In parallel, a high demand for a standard format drove the formation of the=
 Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the=
 professional and home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical ap=
plications, AVB networks share very similar characteristics. Other instance=
s of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for instance in the contex=
t of vehicles and avionics, with the mission-critical "Avionics Full-Duplex=
 Switched Ethernet" (AFDX) that was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standa=
rds. The work started at the IEEE802.1 to provide deterministic Ethernet A/=
V Bridging has now generalized and was renamed "Time Sensitive Networking" =
(TSN).

The IETF and the IEEE need now to collaborate and define an abstract model =
that can be applicable at Layer-2 and Layer-3 along segments of different t=
echnologies, for instance across a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges and th=
en a (limited) number of IP routers, such as 6TiSCH nodes which, by the way=
, operate on a different MAC/PHY. The model should enable fully scheduled o=
perations by a central controller, with capabilities such as zero congestio=
n loss and live-live parallel transmission for increased reliability, as we=
ll as a more distributed model similar to Intserv, though bounded in reach =
and possibilities.


WG description


The Working Group will focus on the signaling and forwarding models that ar=
e required to enable an end-to-end path with the Deterministic properties o=
f controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jitter, and High Reliabili=
ty, over a moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 network composed of IEEE8=
02.1 bridges, routers, and hosts, within a single administrative domain suc=
h as a campus or a Small/Home office Network.

The extent of the problem space for the WG includes the establishment and m=
aintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 bridged and Layer-3 routed segme=
nts, and though only Layer-3 operations will be specified in Standard Track=
 documents, the group will maintain consistency and compatibility with the =
concurrent work that is happening at IEEE802.1 TSN for the Layer-2 operatio=
ns.

The work will include the characterization and the marking of flows. It wil=
l apply to flows that can be well-characterized in a manner that allows to =
tightly reserve the appropriate network resources for the flows in advance,=
 and release/reuse the resources when they are not required.

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Inte=
rnet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Rout=
ing and Security areas.

Work Items


- Deliverables:

  * an analysis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 drafts=
 which would include process control, factory automation, planes and video =
studios)
  * A general problem statement including an analysis of the proposed solut=
ions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN, with a status of the work done an=
d left to be achieved, and the directions that are being taken.
  * A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explore=
d, such as Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), Centra=
l controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), Connection to Operations (App=
lication) Controllers, and Mixed scenarios.
  * requirement drafts will be produced for other WGs as deemed necessary, =
with for instance a requirement draft for the definition of a PHsB at the t=
ransport area.
  * a study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the defini=
tion of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (per RFC 7=
346) where for instance the deterministic technology is consistent over a L=
ink or a Realm Local Scope and achievable across technologies and layers ov=
er an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.

  ->  all those documents planned for informational track

  * a data model for flow characterization for use in flow reservation,
  * a flow identification for use in packet forwarding, with declination on=
 6TiSCH and MPLS.

  -> those would be standard track

Milestones


TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after chartering


Cheers,

Pascal

--_000_E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DD641Fxmbrcdx01ciscoc_
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">So much content here! =
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Many thanks to both of=
 you. Addressing this and Karl&#8217;s point:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"></span><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">(1) How d=
oes this relate to IETF&#8217;s focus on the public (capital-I) Internet?<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- Would it be reasonable to envision determini=
stic networking running<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">over (suitably pr=
ovisioned) Internet paths in a network, e.g.,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">to connect relate=
d industrial sites?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- I&#8217;m reacting to &#8220;very controlled=
 environment&#8221; at the end of the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; second paragrap=
h in Background and suggesting some text to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; address the bro=
ader possibilities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m a bit concer=
ned about knee jerks on complexity in particular related to interdomain, IO=
W I&#8217;d rather stay closer to a diffserv scope than an intserv where th=
e whole network needs to understand the tags in
 a consistent fashion. What about adding in the background something like: =
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8220;The integration=
 of determinism in Internet Technology becomes a necessity as deterministic=
 networks become structured, and require forwarding beyond LAN boundaries. =
For instance, Industrial Automation segregates
 the network along the broad lines of the Purdue Enterprise Reference Archi=
tecture (PERA), using different technologies at each level, and public infr=
astructures such as Electricity Automation require deterministic properties=
 over the Wide Area. &#8220;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">In the WG descrition, =
we could also modify the first sentence to:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8220;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The Working Group will=
 initially focus on the signaling and packet tagging that are required to e=
nable and forward along an end-to-end path with the deterministic propertie=
s of controlled latency, low packet
 loss, ultra-low jitter, and High Reliability. The network will initially b=
e of moderate size, composed of mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 sub-networks of IEE=
E802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts. A single administrative domain such as =
a campus, a Small/Home office Network,
<span style=3D"background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">or a controlled Wide=
 Area Network will be assumed to start with, and approaches that can be app=
lied to the Internet at large will be favored.</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8220;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(2) I see a disconnect between the charter tex=
t&#8217;s focus on &#8220;models&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">and the two specific standards track protocol =
deliverables.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- This starts at the end of the background tha=
t seems to scope the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; work solely to =
models.&nbsp; The proposed work is not just to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; produce models,=
 but also protocol support for deterministic<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IP-based networ=
king (some of which might take place in other<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WGs).<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Yes, I think I see wha=
t you&#8217;re saying. My point is that the work on the data model for sign=
aling elements and a study of state and tagging can start before the archit=
ectural model is fully understood. For one
 thing, the work on deterministic PHB has already started at TSVWG, and a s=
tudy on generalizing MLPS labels can also start now. What about changing th=
e last paragraph to:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8220;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">In order to serve thos=
e needs, the IETF and the IEEE need to collaborate and define an abstract m=
odel that can be applicable at Layer-2 and Layer-3 along segments of differ=
ent technologies. With this new work,
 a path may span for instance across a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges an=
d then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE802.1 bri=
dges may be operating at Layer-2 over Ethernet whereas the IP routers may b=
e 6TiSCH nodes operating at Layer-2
 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.15.4e MAC. The proposed model should enabl=
e fully scheduled operations by a central controller, with capabilities suc=
h as zero congestion loss and live-live parallel transmission for increased=
 reliability, as well as a more
 distributed model similar to Intserv, though bounded in reach and possibil=
ities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;background:yellow;mso-h=
ighlight:yellow">In parallel to the definition of the abstract model, the I=
ETF needs also to define tagging and signaling elements to be used to estab=
lish a path and identify the flows,
 and how they can be instantiated on relevant technologies such as PCE, MPL=
S and 6TiSCH.</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8220;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(3) Please add a sentence or two on how coordi=
nation with the IEEE<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">is envisioned to work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- How do we ensure (or at least make it highly=
 likely) that the IEEE<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and IETF develo=
p and work with common models and requirements?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- This is about heading off divergence in adva=
nce, and might be as<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; simple as key p=
eople participating in both organizations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">In practice, we alread=
y have Pat Thaler participating, and a number of members who participate to=
 both. So I&#8217;m not too anxious there.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Still, yes, this needs=
 to be clarified. What about updating the second sentence to:<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8220;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The extent of the prob=
lem space for the WG includes the establishment and maintenance of multi-ho=
p paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-3 routed segments. Though only Layer=
-3 operations will be specified in Standard
 Track documents, the group will maintain consistency and compatibility wit=
h the concurrent work that is happening at IEEE802.1 TSN for the Layer-2 op=
erations,
<span style=3D"background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">leveraging cross-par=
ticipation and liaison work.</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8220;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m still workin=
g on the last 3 items, but I wanted to share this already. Following up lat=
er in the day.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Pascal<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Black, D=
avid [mailto:david.black@emc.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lundi 22 septembre 2014 23:07<br>
<b>To:</b> Karl Weber; Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norm=
an Finn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net); Alia Atlas (akatlas@gm=
ail.com)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> detnet@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Karl,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Nice explanation - I think it&#8217;d be good =
for the charter to include that sort of hierarchy discussion.&nbsp; The pos=
sibility of using the Internet to interconnect the local
 networks would definitely help to connect this proposed work to the IETF&#=
8217;s mission.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Thanks,<br>
--David</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blac=
k"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Karl Web=
er [<a href=3D"mailto:karl.weber@beckhoff.com">mailto:karl.weber@beckhoff.c=
om</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 22, 2014 12:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Black, David; Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); No=
rman Finn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (<a href=3D"mailto:nordmark@sonic.net">nor=
dmark@sonic.net</a>); Alia Atlas (<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akat=
las@gmail.com</a>)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">David,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">A few cents regarding =
(1)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Industrial control is =
structured in several hierarchical levels.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">It would be difficult =
to put everything in a single LAN &#8211; thus, a structured system would b=
e fine and IETF may be a good choice to structure a machinery park.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The most important are=
a is the infrastructuring area: water, waste, electricity and transposrt.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Especially electricity=
 requires a highly deterministic network and it is definitely a WAN.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Wind parks/Virtual pow=
er plants are other examples in this areas.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">And electricity is a v=
ery important factor for the quality of production seamless interaction bet=
ween infrastructure and production will be a key success factor in the futu=
re &#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Motors and other equip=
ment may be used in infrastructure and industry &#8211; a common approach i=
s highly welcome.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">And cars would require=
 a common deterministic link to run in an convoy each of them a few centime=
ters distance to use the slipstream effect.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:20.4pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:=
Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">- Karl<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">Beckhoff Automation GmbH | Managing Director: Dipl. Phys. =
Hans Beckhoff, Arnold Beckhoff<br>
Registered office: Verl, Germany | Register court: G=FCtersloh HRB 1803</sp=
an><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,=
&quot;serif&quot;">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> detnet [=
<a href=3D"mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Black, David<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Montag, 22. September 2014 17:52<br>
<b>To:</b> Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfi=
nn); Erik Nordmark (<a href=3D"mailto:nordmark@sonic.net">nordmark@sonic.ne=
t</a>); Alia Atlas (<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@gmail.com<=
/a>)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Pascal,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">This text looks promising.&nbsp; Here are a fe=
w things to consider.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(1) How does this relate to IETF&#8217;s focus=
 on the public (capital-I) Internet?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- Would it be reasonable to envision determini=
stic networking running<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">over (suitably pr=
ovisioned) Internet paths in a network, e.g.,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">to connect relate=
d industrial sites?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- I&#8217;m reacting to &#8220;very controlled=
 environment&#8221; at the end of the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; second paragrap=
h in Background and suggesting some text to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; address the bro=
ader possibilities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(2) I see a disconnect between the charter tex=
t&#8217;s focus on &#8220;models&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">and the two specific standards track protocol =
deliverables.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- This starts at the end of the background tha=
t seems to scope the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; work solely to =
models.&nbsp; The proposed work is not just to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; produce models,=
 but also protocol support for deterministic<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IP-based networ=
king (some of which might take place in other<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WGs).<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(3) Please add a sentence or two on how coordi=
nation with the IEEE<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">is envisioned to work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- How do we ensure (or at least make it highly=
 likely) that the IEEE<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and IETF develo=
p and work with common models and requirements?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- This is about heading off divergence in adva=
nce, and might be as<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; simple as key p=
eople participating in both organizations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(4) For deliverables:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- I would combine the first two, so that the u=
se cases support both<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the problem sta=
tement and high-level requirements.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- The IP scoping work feels like it&#8217;s re=
lated to the solution taxonomy,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; but I&#8217;m n=
ot sure whether those should be combined.&nbsp; At a minimum,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the solution ta=
xonomy should discuss the role of IP scope.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- There&#8217;s probably some sequencing in th=
e dates with the requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and problem sta=
tement coming before the two standards-track<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; documents.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(5) Flow characterization - between the third =
paragraph in the WG<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">description and the deliverable, I&#8217;m mis=
sing something about how the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&#8220;data model for flow characterization&#8=
221; is intended to be used.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- Suggestion: list reservation protocols with =
which the model could<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">be used (e.g., RS=
VP) as examples, making it clear that the WG<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">decides which one=
s are relevant.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- What is IEEE doing for flow reservation?&nbs=
p; That should be mentioned.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(6) I wonder about committing this proposed WG=
 to produce requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">for work in other WGs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- Some flexibility and lazy evaluation of wher=
e to do work may be<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; better.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- I would suggest softening this language to t=
alk about requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">as deliverables, =
and discuss the possibility of work being<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">done in other WGs=
 up in the main charter text.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Thanks,<br>
--David</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blac=
k"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> detnet [=
<a href=3D"mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Pascal Thubert (pthubert)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 22, 2014 9:48 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (<a href=
=3D"mailto:nordmark@sonic.net">nordmark@sonic.net</a>); Alia Atlas (<a href=
=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@gmail.com</a>)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Dear all:<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Please find below my l=
atest and the txt version attached. I included (my understanding of) Anca&#=
8217;s point (Thanks Anca!) as well as a multilayer/segment discussion as s=
tirred by George. I stole and adapted text
 from various places, the original authors will recognize themselves : )<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Background on determin=
istic networking
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Operational Technology=
 (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typically used for monitoring =
systems and supporting control loops, as well as movement detection systems=
 for use in Process Control (i.e., process
 manufacturing) and Factory Automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due =
to its different goals, OT has evolved totally in parallel and in a manner =
that is radically different from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliabl=
e and deterministic networks, with
 limited scalability over a bounded area.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The convergence of IT =
and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Internet, will represent a =
major evolution for both sides. The work has already started; in particular=
, the Industrial Automation space has
 been developing a number of Ethernet-based &#8220;fieldbus&#8221; replacem=
ents, meant to provide &#8220;determinism&#8221;, with the focus to transpo=
rt a fully characterized flow over a very controlled environment (i.e., a &=
#8220;well regulated&#8221; factory floor), with a bounded latency,
 a low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">In parallel, a high de=
mand for a standard format drove the formation of the Audio/Video Bridging =
(AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the professional and home=
 audio/video markets. While aimed at
 less critical applications, AVB networks share very similar characteristic=
s. Other instances of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for insta=
nce in the context of vehicles and avionics, with the mission-critical &#82=
20;Avionics Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet&#8221;
 (AFDX) that was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standards. The work start=
ed at the IEEE802.1 to provide deterministic Ethernet A/V Bridging has now =
generalized and was renamed &quot;Time Sensitive Networking&quot; (TSN).<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The IETF and the IEEE =
need now to collaborate and define an abstract model that can be applicable=
 at Layer-2 and Layer-3 along segments of different technologies, for insta=
nce across a (limited) number of 802.1
 bridges and then a (limited) number of IP routers, such as 6TiSCH nodes wh=
ich, by the way, operate on a different MAC/PHY. The model should enable fu=
lly scheduled operations by a central controller, with capabilities such as=
 zero congestion loss and live-live
 parallel transmission for increased reliability, as well as a more distrib=
uted model similar to Intserv, though bounded in reach and possibilities.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">WG description<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The Working Group will=
 focus on the signaling and forwarding models that are required to enable a=
n end-to-end path with the Deterministic properties of controlled latency, =
low packet loss, ultra-low jitter, and
 High Reliability, over a moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 network co=
mposed of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts, within a single administra=
tive domain such as a campus or a Small/Home office Network.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The extent of the prob=
lem space for the WG includes the establishment and maintenance of multi-ho=
p paths over Layer-2 bridged and Layer-3 routed segments, and though only L=
ayer-3 operations will be specified
 in Standard Track documents, the group will maintain consistency and compa=
tibility with the concurrent work that is happening at IEEE802.1 TSN for th=
e Layer-2 operations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The work will include =
the characterization and the marking of flows. It will apply to flows that =
can be well-characterized in a manner that allows to tightly reserve the ap=
propriate network resources for the
 flows in advance, and release/reuse the resources when they are not requir=
ed. <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The WG will interface =
with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Internet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Tr=
ansport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Routing and Security areas=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Work Items<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">- Deliverables:<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* an analy=
sis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 drafts which would=
 include process control, factory automation, planes and video studios)<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp; * A general pro=
blem statement including an analysis of the proposed solutions of the relat=
ed work at IEEE802.1TSN, with a status of the work done and left to be achi=
eved, and the directions that are being taken.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp; * A solution ta=
xonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explored, such as Peer-t=
o-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), Central controller (alo=
ng the lines of SDN or PCE), Connection to
 Operations (Application) Controllers, and Mixed scenarios.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp; * requirement d=
rafts will be produced for other WGs as deemed necessary, with for instance=
 a requirement draft for the definition of a PHsB at the transport area.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp; * a study of ge=
neric scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the definition of Link-Loca=
l, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (per RFC 7346) where for in=
stance the deterministic technology is consistent
 over a Link or a Realm Local Scope and achievable across technologies and =
layers over an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;-&gt;&nbsp=
; all those documents planned for informational track
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* a data m=
odel for flow characterization for use in flow reservation,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* a flow i=
dentification for use in packet forwarding, with declination on 6TiSCH and =
MPLS.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;-&gt; thos=
e would be standard track<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Milestones<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">TBD, probably all draf=
ts to IESG one year after chartering<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Pascal<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
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From nobody Tue Sep 23 10:19:25 2014
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From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
To: "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Detnet] are there any drafts published yet?
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--089e010d83629a8c880503bec4e0
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If you want a BoF in Honolulu then you need to get a lot of things done
before Friday! A BoF proposal without any drafts will not be taken
seriously. The IESG cannot discuss this without background material.

Charter discussion is a bit premature.

Regards,
Alia

--089e010d83629a8c880503bec4e0
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<div dir=3D"ltr">If you want a BoF in Honolulu then you need to get a lot o=
f things done before Friday! A BoF proposal without any drafts will not be =
taken seriously. The IESG cannot discuss this without background material.<=
br><div><br></div><div>Charter discussion is a bit premature.</div><div><br=
></div><div>Regards,<br></div><div>Alia</div></div>

--089e010d83629a8c880503bec4e0--


From nobody Tue Sep 23 15:27:44 2014
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From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, "Anca Zamfir (ancaz)" <ancaz@cisco.com>, "Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net)" <nordmark@sonic.net>, "Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)" <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 22:27:33 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
To: "Black, David" <david.black@emc.com>, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, "Anca Zamfir (ancaz)" <ancaz@cisco.com>, "Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net)" <nordmark@sonic.net>, "Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)" <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 22:40:41 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
To: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>, "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] are there any drafts published yet?
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] are there any drafts published yet?
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From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
To: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] What we need to get a BOF in November
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] What we need to get a BOF in November
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From nobody Tue Sep 23 17:27:23 2014
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From: "Black, David" <david.black@emc.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, Karl Weber <karl.weber@beckhoff.com>, "Anca Zamfir (ancaz)" <ancaz@cisco.com>, "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>, "Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net)" <nordmark@sonic.net>, "Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)" <akatlas@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 20:26:57 -0400
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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Pascal,

-- (1) --
I agree with your concerns about interdomain and favoring Diffserv over Int=
serv.

I like the proposed addition to background text.  In the WG description edi=
ts:

A single administrative domain such as a campus, a Small/Home office Networ=
k, or a controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to start with, and app=
roaches that can be applied to the Internet at large will be favored.

I think ending the sentence at "a controlled Wide Area Network will be assu=
med to start with" suffices - I would admit "and approaches that can be app=
lied to the Internet at large will be favored."

-- (2) --
The new sentence is a significant improvement.

-- (3) --
The additional words look fine.

Thanks,
--David

From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 8:56 AM
To: Black, David; Karl Weber; Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Eri=
k Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net); Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

So much content here!

Many thanks to both of you. Addressing this and Karl's point:

(1) How does this relate to IETF's focus on the public (capital-I) Internet=
?

- Would it be reasonable to envision deterministic networking running
over (suitably provisioned) Internet paths in a network, e.g.,
to connect related industrial sites?
- I'm reacting to "very controlled environment" at the end of the
      second paragraph in Background and suggesting some text to
      address the broader possibilities.


I'm a bit concerned about knee jerks on complexity in particular related to=
 interdomain, IOW I'd rather stay closer to a diffserv scope than an intser=
v where the whole network needs to understand the tags in a consistent fash=
ion. What about adding in the background something like:

"The integration of determinism in Internet Technology becomes a necessity =
as deterministic networks become structured, and require forwarding beyond =
LAN boundaries. For instance, Industrial Automation segregates the network =
along the broad lines of the Purdue Enterprise Reference Architecture (PERA=
), using different technologies at each level, and public infrastructures s=
uch as Electricity Automation require deterministic properties over the Wid=
e Area. "

In the WG descrition, we could also modify the first sentence to:
"
The Working Group will initially focus on the signaling and packet tagging =
that are required to enable and forward along an end-to-end path with the d=
eterministic properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low j=
itter, and High Reliability. The network will initially be of moderate size=
, composed of mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 sub-networks of IEEE802.1 bridges, ro=
uters, and hosts. A single administrative domain such as a campus, a Small/=
Home office Network, or a controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to s=
tart with, and approaches that can be applied to the Internet at large will=
 be favored.
"


(2) I see a disconnect between the charter text's focus on "models"
and the two specific standards track protocol deliverables.

- This starts at the end of the background that seems to scope the
      work solely to models.  The proposed work is not just to
      produce models, but also protocol support for deterministic
      IP-based networking (some of which might take place in other
      WGs).

Yes, I think I see what you're saying. My point is that the work on the dat=
a model for signaling elements and a study of state and tagging can start b=
efore the architectural model is fully understood. For one thing, the work =
on deterministic PHB has already started at TSVWG, and a study on generaliz=
ing MLPS labels can also start now. What about changing the last paragraph =
to:

"
In order to serve those needs, the IETF and the IEEE need to collaborate an=
d define an abstract model that can be applicable at Layer-2 and Layer-3 al=
ong segments of different technologies. With this new work, a path may span=
 for instance across a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges and then a (limite=
d) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE802.1 bridges may be oper=
ating at Layer-2 over Ethernet whereas the IP routers may be 6TiSCH nodes o=
perating at Layer-2 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.15.4e MAC. The proposed=
 model should enable fully scheduled operations by a central controller, wi=
th capabilities such as zero congestion loss and live-live parallel transmi=
ssion for increased reliability, as well as a more distributed model simila=
r to Intserv, though bounded in reach and possibilities.

In parallel to the definition of the abstract model, the IETF needs also to=
 define tagging and signaling elements to be used to establish a path and i=
dentify the flows, and how they can be instantiated on relevant technologie=
s such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH.
"

(3) Please add a sentence or two on how coordination with the IEEE
is envisioned to work.

- How do we ensure (or at least make it highly likely) that the IEEE
      and IETF develop and work with common models and requirements?
- This is about heading off divergence in advance, and might be as
      simple as key people participating in both organizations.

In practice, we already have Pat Thaler participating, and a number of memb=
ers who participate to both. So I'm not too anxious there.
Still, yes, this needs to be clarified. What about updating the second sent=
ence to:
"
The extent of the problem space for the WG includes the establishment and m=
aintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-3 routed segme=
nts. Though only Layer-3 operations will be specified in Standard Track doc=
uments, the group will maintain consistency and compatibility with the conc=
urrent work that is happening at IEEE802.1 TSN for the Layer-2 operations, =
leveraging cross-participation and liaison work.
"

I'm still working on the last 3 items, but I wanted to share this already. =
Following up later in the day.

Cheers,

Pascal

From: Black, David [mailto:david.black@emc.com]
Sent: lundi 22 septembre 2014 23:07
To: Karl Weber; Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn=
 (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net<mailto:nordmark@sonic.net>); Al=
ia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com<mailto:akatlas@gmail.com>)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

Karl,

Nice explanation - I think it'd be good for the charter to include that sor=
t of hierarchy discussion.  The possibility of using the Internet to interc=
onnect the local networks would definitely help to connect this proposed wo=
rk to the IETF's mission.

Thanks,
--David

From: Karl Weber [mailto:karl.weber@beckhoff.com]
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 12:38 PM
To: Black, David; Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Fi=
nn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net<mailto:nordmark@sonic.net>); =
Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com<mailto:akatlas@gmail.com>)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

David,

A few cents regarding (1)
Industrial control is structured in several hierarchical levels.
It would be difficult to put everything in a single LAN - thus, a structure=
d system would be fine and IETF may be a good choice to structure a machine=
ry park.

The most important area is the infrastructuring area: water, waste, electri=
city and transposrt.
Especially electricity requires a highly deterministic network and it is de=
finitely a WAN.
Wind parks/Virtual power plants are other examples in this areas.

And electricity is a very important factor for the quality of production se=
amless interaction between infrastructure and production will be a key succ=
ess factor in the future ...

Motors and other equipment may be used in infrastructure and industry - a c=
ommon approach is highly welcome.

And cars would require a common deterministic link to run in an convoy each=
 of them a few centimeters distance to use the slipstream effect.


-          - Karl


Beckhoff Automation GmbH | Managing Director: Dipl. Phys. Hans Beckhoff, Ar=
nold Beckhoff
Registered office: Verl, Germany | Register court: G=FCtersloh HRB 1803
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Black, David
Sent: Montag, 22. September 2014 17:52
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Er=
ik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net<mailto:nordmark@sonic.net>); Alia Atlas (ak=
atlas@gmail.com<mailto:akatlas@gmail.com>)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

Pascal,

This text looks promising.  Here are a few things to consider.

(1) How does this relate to IETF's focus on the public (capital-I) Internet=
?

- Would it be reasonable to envision deterministic networking running
over (suitably provisioned) Internet paths in a network, e.g.,
to connect related industrial sites?
- I'm reacting to "very controlled environment" at the end of the
      second paragraph in Background and suggesting some text to
      address the broader possibilities.

(2) I see a disconnect between the charter text's focus on "models"
and the two specific standards track protocol deliverables.

- This starts at the end of the background that seems to scope the
      work solely to models.  The proposed work is not just to
      produce models, but also protocol support for deterministic
      IP-based networking (some of which might take place in other
      WGs).

(3) Please add a sentence or two on how coordination with the IEEE
is envisioned to work.

- How do we ensure (or at least make it highly likely) that the IEEE
      and IETF develop and work with common models and requirements?
- This is about heading off divergence in advance, and might be as
      simple as key people participating in both organizations.

(4) For deliverables:

- I would combine the first two, so that the use cases support both
      the problem statement and high-level requirements.
- The IP scoping work feels like it's related to the solution taxonomy,
      but I'm not sure whether those should be combined.  At a minimum,
      the solution taxonomy should discuss the role of IP scope.
- There's probably some sequencing in the dates with the requirements
      and problem statement coming before the two standards-track
      documents.

(5) Flow characterization - between the third paragraph in the WG
description and the deliverable, I'm missing something about how the
"data model for flow characterization" is intended to be used.

- Suggestion: list reservation protocols with which the model could
be used (e.g., RSVP) as examples, making it clear that the WG
decides which ones are relevant.
- What is IEEE doing for flow reservation?  That should be mentioned.

(6) I wonder about committing this proposed WG to produce requirements
for work in other WGs.

- Some flexibility and lazy evaluation of where to do work may be
      better.
- I would suggest softening this language to talk about requirements
as deliverables, and discuss the possibility of work being
done in other WGs up in the main charter text.



Thanks,
--David

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (=
pthubert)
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 9:48 AM
To: Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic=
.net<mailto:nordmark@sonic.net>); Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com<mailto:akat=
las@gmail.com>)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

Dear all:

Please find below my latest and the txt version attached. I included (my un=
derstanding of) Anca's point (Thanks Anca!) as well as a multilayer/segment=
 discussion as stirred by George. I stole and adapted text from various pla=
ces, the original authors will recognize themselves : )



Background on deterministic networking


Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typicall=
y used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as well as move=
ment detection systems for use in Process Control (i.e., process manufactur=
ing) and Factory Automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its diff=
erent goals, OT has evolved totally in parallel and in a manner that is rad=
ically different from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and deter=
ministic networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.

The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Inter=
net, will represent a major evolution for both sides. The work has already =
started; in particular, the Industrial Automation space has been developing=
 a number of Ethernet-based "fieldbus" replacements, meant to provide "dete=
rminism", with the focus to transport a fully characterized flow over a ver=
y controlled environment (i.e., a "well regulated" factory floor), with a b=
ounded latency, a low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter.

In parallel, a high demand for a standard format drove the formation of the=
 Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the=
 professional and home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical ap=
plications, AVB networks share very similar characteristics. Other instance=
s of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for instance in the contex=
t of vehicles and avionics, with the mission-critical "Avionics Full-Duplex=
 Switched Ethernet" (AFDX) that was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standa=
rds. The work started at the IEEE802.1 to provide deterministic Ethernet A/=
V Bridging has now generalized and was renamed "Time Sensitive Networking" =
(TSN).

The IETF and the IEEE need now to collaborate and define an abstract model =
that can be applicable at Layer-2 and Layer-3 along segments of different t=
echnologies, for instance across a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges and th=
en a (limited) number of IP routers, such as 6TiSCH nodes which, by the way=
, operate on a different MAC/PHY. The model should enable fully scheduled o=
perations by a central controller, with capabilities such as zero congestio=
n loss and live-live parallel transmission for increased reliability, as we=
ll as a more distributed model similar to Intserv, though bounded in reach =
and possibilities.


WG description


The Working Group will focus on the signaling and forwarding models that ar=
e required to enable an end-to-end path with the Deterministic properties o=
f controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jitter, and High Reliabili=
ty, over a moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 network composed of IEEE8=
02.1 bridges, routers, and hosts, within a single administrative domain suc=
h as a campus or a Small/Home office Network.

The extent of the problem space for the WG includes the establishment and m=
aintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 bridged and Layer-3 routed segme=
nts, and though only Layer-3 operations will be specified in Standard Track=
 documents, the group will maintain consistency and compatibility with the =
concurrent work that is happening at IEEE802.1 TSN for the Layer-2 operatio=
ns.

The work will include the characterization and the marking of flows. It wil=
l apply to flows that can be well-characterized in a manner that allows to =
tightly reserve the appropriate network resources for the flows in advance,=
 and release/reuse the resources when they are not required.

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Inte=
rnet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Rout=
ing and Security areas.

Work Items


- Deliverables:

  * an analysis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 drafts=
 which would include process control, factory automation, planes and video =
studios)
  * A general problem statement including an analysis of the proposed solut=
ions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN, with a status of the work done an=
d left to be achieved, and the directions that are being taken.
  * A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explore=
d, such as Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), Centra=
l controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), Connection to Operations (App=
lication) Controllers, and Mixed scenarios.
  * requirement drafts will be produced for other WGs as deemed necessary, =
with for instance a requirement draft for the definition of a PHsB at the t=
ransport area.
  * a study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the defini=
tion of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (per RFC 7=
346) where for instance the deterministic technology is consistent over a L=
ink or a Realm Local Scope and achievable across technologies and layers ov=
er an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.

  ->  all those documents planned for informational track

  * a data model for flow characterization for use in flow reservation,
  * a flow identification for use in packet forwarding, with declination on=
 6TiSCH and MPLS.

  -> those would be standard track

Milestones


TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after chartering


Cheers,

Pascal

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nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Pascal,<o:p></o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>-- (=
1) --<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>I agree with your concerns abou=
t interdomain and favoring Diffserv over Intserv.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";=
color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>I like the prop=
osed addition to background text.=A0 In the WG description edits:<o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>A single administrative domain such as a c=
ampus, a Small/Home office Network, <span style=3D'background:yellow;mso-hi=
ghlight:yellow'>or a controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to start =
with, and approaches that can be applied to the Internet at large will be f=
avored.</span><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Cou=
rier New";color:black'>I think ending the sentence at &#8220;a controlled W=
ide Area Network will be assumed to start with&#8221; suffices - I would ad=
mit &#8220;and approaches that can be applied to the Internet at large will=
 be favored.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Courier New";color:black'>-- (2) --<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:blac=
k'>The new sentence is a significant improvement.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";=
color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>-- (3) --<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:"Courier New";color:black'>The additional words look fine.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family=
:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";colo=
r:black'>Thanks,<br>--David</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New";=
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;pad=
ding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5=
C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Pascal Thu=
bert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, Septe=
mber 23, 2014 8:56 AM<br><b>To:</b> Black, David; Karl Weber; Anca Zamfir (=
ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net); Alia Atlas=
 (akatlas@gmail.com)<br><b>Cc:</b> detnet@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [=
Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
</div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>So much content here! <o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Many thanks to both o=
f you. Addressing this and Karl&#8217;s point:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"=
;color:black'>(1) How does this relate to IETF&#8217;s focus on the public =
(capital-I) Internet?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Courier New";color:black'>- Would it be reasonable to envision determin=
istic networking running<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New=
";color:black'>over (suitably provisioned) Internet paths in a network, e.g=
.,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>to conn=
ect related industrial sites?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- I&#82=
17;m reacting to &#8220;very controlled environment&#8221; at the end of th=
e<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; seco=
nd paragraph in Background and suggesting some text to<o:p></o:p></span></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; address the broader possib=
ilities.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F=
497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color=
:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'c=
olor:#1F497D'>I&#8217;m a bit concerned about knee jerks on complexity in p=
articular related to interdomain, IOW I&#8217;d rather stay closer to a dif=
fserv scope than an intserv where the whole network needs to understand the=
 tags in a consistent fashion. What about adding in the background somethin=
g like: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F=
497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color=
:#1F497D'>&#8220;The integration of determinism in Internet Technology beco=
mes a necessity as deterministic networks become structured, and require fo=
rwarding beyond LAN boundaries. For instance, Industrial Automation segrega=
tes the network along the broad lines of the Purdue Enterprise Reference Ar=
chitecture (PERA), using different technologies at each level, and public i=
nfrastructures such as Electricity Automation require deterministic propert=
ies over the Wide Area. &#8220;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>In the WG descrition, we could also modify=
 the first sentence to:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'color:#1F497D'>&#8220;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The Working Group will initially focus on the sig=
naling and packet tagging that are required to enable and forward along an =
end-to-end path with the deterministic properties of controlled latency, lo=
w packet loss, ultra-low jitter, and High Reliability. The network will ini=
tially be of moderate size, composed of mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 sub-network=
s of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts. A single administrative domain =
such as a campus, a Small/Home office Network, <span style=3D'background:ye=
llow;mso-highlight:yellow'>or a controlled Wide Area Network will be assume=
d to start with, and approaches that can be applied to the Internet at larg=
e will be favored.</span><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'color:#1F497D'>&#8220;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black=
'>(2) I see a disconnect between the charter text&#8217;s focus on &#8220;m=
odels&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>and the two specific sta=
ndards track protocol deliverables.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- This starts at the end of the=
 background that seems to scope the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; work solely to models.&nbsp; The proposed wor=
k is not just to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; produce models, but also protocol support for deterministic<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IP-based n=
etworking (some of which might take place in other<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"=
;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WGs).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Yes, I think I see what=
 you&#8217;re saying. My point is that the work on the data model for signa=
ling elements and a study of state and tagging can start before the archite=
ctural model is fully understood. For one thing, the work on deterministic =
PHB has already started at TSVWG, and a study on generalizing MLPS labels c=
an also start now. What about changing the last paragraph to:<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&#8220;<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>In orde=
r to serve those needs, the IETF and the IEEE need to collaborate and defin=
e an abstract model that can be applicable at Layer-2 and Layer-3 along seg=
ments of different technologies. With this new work, a path may span for in=
stance across a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges and then a (limited) numb=
er of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE802.1 bridges may be operating a=
t Layer-2 over Ethernet whereas the IP routers may be 6TiSCH nodes operatin=
g at Layer-2 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.15.4e MAC. The proposed model =
should enable fully scheduled operations by a central controller, with capa=
bilities such as zero congestion loss and live-live parallel transmission f=
or increased reliability, as well as a more distributed model similar to In=
tserv, though bounded in reach and possibilities.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D;background:yellow;mso-hig=
hlight:yellow'>In parallel to the definition of the abstract model, the IET=
F needs also to define tagging and signaling elements to be used to establi=
sh a path and identify the flows, and how they can be instantiated on relev=
ant technologies such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH.</span><span style=3D'color:#=
1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F=
497D'>&#8220;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'colo=
r:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>(3) Please add a se=
ntence or two on how coordination with the IEEE<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";co=
lor:black'>is envisioned to work.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- How do we ensure (or at least m=
ake it highly likely) that the IEEE<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and IETF develop and work with common models =
and requirements?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- This is about hea=
ding off divergence in advance, and might be as<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";co=
lor:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; simple as key people participatin=
g in both organizations.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'color:#1F497D'>In practice, we already have Pat Thaler participa=
ting, and a number of members who participate to both. So I&#8217;m not too=
 anxious there.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'co=
lor:#1F497D'>Still, yes, this needs to be clarified. What about updating th=
e second sentence to:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'color:#1F497D'>&#8220;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The extent of the problem space for the WG includes=
 the establishment and maintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged =
and Layer-3 routed segments. Though only Layer-3 operations will be specifi=
ed in Standard Track documents, the group will maintain consistency and com=
patibility with the concurrent work that is happening at IEEE802.1 TSN for =
the Layer-2 operations, <span style=3D'background:yellow;mso-highlight:yell=
ow'>leveraging cross-participation and liaison work.</span><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&#8220;<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I&#8217;m=
 still working on the last 3 items, but I wanted to share this already. Fol=
lowing up later in the day.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
 style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Pascal<o:p></o:p></span></p></di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0i=
n 0in 4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;=
padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Black, David [<a href=
=3D"mailto:david.black@emc.com">mailto:david.black@emc.com</a>] <br><b>Sent=
:</b> lundi 22 septembre 2014 23:07<br><b>To:</b> Karl Weber; Pascal Thuber=
t (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:nordmark@sonic.net">nordmark@sonic.net</a>); Alia Atlas (<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@gmail.com</a>)<br><b>Cc:</b> <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [D=
etnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it<o:p></o:p></span></p><=
/div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Karl,=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";colo=
r:black'>Nice explanation - I think it&#8217;d be good for the charter to i=
nclude that sort of hierarchy discussion.&nbsp; The possibility of using th=
e Internet to interconnect the local networks would definitely help to conn=
ect this proposed work to the IETF&#8217;s mission.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New=
";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Thank=
s,<br>--David</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><=
o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p><div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0=
in 4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;pad=
ding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Karl Weber [<a href=3D"mai=
lto:karl.weber@beckhoff.com">mailto:karl.weber@beckhoff.com</a>] <br><b>Sen=
t:</b> Monday, September 22, 2014 12:38 PM<br><b>To:</b> Black, David; Pasc=
al Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Erik Nordm=
ark (<a href=3D"mailto:nordmark@sonic.net">nordmark@sonic.net</a>); Alia At=
las (<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@gmail.com</a>)<br><b>Cc:<=
/b> <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</=
b> RE: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>David,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>A few cents regarding (1)<o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Indus=
trial control is structured in several hierarchical levels.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>It would be diffic=
ult to put everything in a single LAN &#8211; thus, a structured system wou=
ld be fine and IETF may be a good choice to structure a machinery park.<o:p=
></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Th=
e most important area is the infrastructuring area: water, waste, electrici=
ty and transposrt.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'color:#1F497D'>Especially electricity requires a highly deterministic netw=
ork and it is definitely a WAN.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Wind parks/Virtual power plants are other exam=
ples in this areas.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'color:#1F497D'>And electricity is a very important factor for the q=
uality of production seamless interaction between infrastructure and produc=
tion will be a key success factor in the future &#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Motors and other e=
quipment may be used in infrastructure and industry &#8211; a common approa=
ch is highly welcome.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'color:#1F497D'>And cars would require a common deterministic link t=
o run in an convoy each of them a few centimeters distance to use the slips=
tream effect.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'colo=
r:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D=
'margin-left:20.4pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supp=
ortLists]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<s=
pan style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:=
#1F497D'>- Karl<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'co=
lor:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times N=
ew Roman","serif"'><br></span><span style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"A=
rial","sans-serif"'>Beckhoff Automation GmbH | Managing Director: Dipl. Phy=
s. Hans Beckhoff, Arnold Beckhoff<br>Registered office: Verl, Germany | Reg=
ister court: G=FCtersloh HRB 1803</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div style=3D'bo=
rder:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans=
-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahom=
a","sans-serif"'> detnet [<a href=3D"mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org">mailto=
:detnet-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Black, David<br><b>Sent:<=
/b> Montag, 22. September 2014 17:52<br><b>To:</b> Pascal Thubert (pthubert=
); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (<a href=3D"mail=
to:nordmark@sonic.net">nordmark@sonic.net</a>); Alia Atlas (<a href=3D"mail=
to:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@gmail.com</a>)<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailt=
o:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Detnet] draf=
t charter skeleton - with some meat on it<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Pascal,<o:p></o=
:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'=
>This text looks promising.&nbsp; Here are a few things to consider.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black=
'>(1) How does this relate to IETF&#8217;s focus on the public (capital-I) =
Internet?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'>- Would it be reasonable to envision deterministic networ=
king running<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent=
:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:blac=
k'>over (suitably provisioned) Internet paths in a network, e.g.,<o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>to connect related =
industrial sites?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- I&#8217;m reactin=
g to &#8220;very controlled environment&#8221; at the end of the<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family=
:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; second paragraph=
 in Background and suggesting some text to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:b=
lack'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; address the broader possibilities.<o:p=
></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:bl=
ack'>(2) I see a disconnect between the charter text&#8217;s focus on &#822=
0;models&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>and the two specific =
standards track protocol deliverables.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black=
'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- This starts at the end of =
the background that seems to scope the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black=
'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; work solely to models.&nbsp; The proposed =
work is not just to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; produce models, but also protocol support for deterministic=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IP-ba=
sed networking (some of which might take place in other<o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier=
 New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WGs).<o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier=
 New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>(3) Please =
add a sentence or two on how coordination with the IEEE<o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier=
 New";color:black'>is envisioned to work.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:bl=
ack'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- How do we ensure (or at=
 least make it highly likely) that the IEEE<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";colo=
r:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and IETF develop and work with comm=
on models and requirements?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
 style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- This is=
 about heading off divergence in advance, and might be as<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Couri=
er New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; simple as key people pa=
rticipating in both organizations.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>(4) For deliverables:<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family=
:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- =
I would combine the first two, so that the use cases support both<o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the problem sta=
tement and high-level requirements.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>-=
 The IP scoping work feels like it&#8217;s related to the solution taxonomy=
,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; but =
I&#8217;m not sure whether those should be combined.&nbsp; At a minimum,<o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the solu=
tion taxonomy should discuss the role of IP scope.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"=
;color:black'>- There&#8217;s probably some sequencing in the dates with th=
e requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; and problem statement coming before the two standards-track<o:p></=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; documents.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";colo=
r:black'>(5) Flow characterization - between the third paragraph in the WG<=
o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:"Courier New";color:black'>description and the deliverable, I&#8=
217;m missing something about how the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'=
>&#8220;data model for flow characterization&#8221; is intended to be used.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";colo=
r:black'>- Suggestion: list reservation protocols with which the model coul=
d<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>be used =
(e.g., RSVP) as examples, making it clear that the WG<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>decides which ones are relevant=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- What is IEEE doing for flow reser=
vation?&nbsp; That should be mentioned.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:blac=
k'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>(6) I wonder about committi=
ng this proposed WG to produce requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";colo=
r:black'>for work in other WGs.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- Some flexibility and lazy evaluat=
ion of where to do work may be<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; better.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>- I =
would suggest softening this language to talk about requirements<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>as deliverables, and=
 discuss the possibility of work being<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Courier New";color:black'>done in other WGs up in the main charter text.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:b=
lack'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Thanks,<br>--D=
avid</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p></o:p=
></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div s=
tyle=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'=
><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0p=
t 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> detnet [<a href=3D"mailto:detnet-bo=
unces@ietf.org">mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Pas=
cal Thubert (pthubert)<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 22, 2014 9:48 AM<b=
r><b>To:</b> Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:nordmark@sonic.net">nordmark@sonic.net</a>); Alia Atlas (<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@gmail.com</a>)<br><b>Cc:</b> <a hre=
f=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [De=
tnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it<o:p></o:p></span></p></=
div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Dear all:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Please find below my latest and the =
txt version attached. I included (my understanding of) Anca&#8217;s point (=
Thanks Anca!) as well as a multilayer/segment discussion as stirred by Geor=
ge. I stole and adapted text from various places, the original authors will=
 recognize themselves : )<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div style=
=3D'border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt =
0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Background on deter=
ministic networking <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Operational Technology (OT) refers to indus=
trial networks that are typically used for monitoring systems and supportin=
g control loops, as well as movement detection systems for use in Process C=
ontrol (i.e., process manufacturing) and Factory Automation (i.e., discrete=
 manufacturing). Due to its different goals, OT has evolved totally in para=
llel and in a manner that is radically different from IT/ICT, focusing on h=
ighly secure, reliable and deterministic networks, with limited scalability=
 over a bounded area.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'color:#1F497D'>The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also call=
ed the Industrial Internet, will represent a major evolution for both sides=
. The work has already started; in particular, the Industrial Automation sp=
ace has been developing a number of Ethernet-based &#8220;fieldbus&#8221; r=
eplacements, meant to provide &#8220;determinism&#8221;, with the focus to =
transport a fully characterized flow over a very controlled environment (i.=
e., a &#8220;well regulated&#8221; factory floor), with a bounded latency, =
a low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>In parallel, a high demand f=
or a standard format drove the formation of the Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) =
standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the professional and home audio=
/video markets. While aimed at less critical applications, AVB networks sha=
re very similar characteristics. Other instances of deterministic networks =
have arisen as well, for instance in the context of vehicles and avionics, =
with the mission-critical &#8220;Avionics Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet&#82=
21; (AFDX) that was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standards. The work st=
arted at the IEEE802.1 to provide deterministic Ethernet A/V Bridging has n=
ow generalized and was renamed &quot;Time Sensitive Networking&quot; (TSN).=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D=
'>The IETF and the IEEE need now to collaborate and define an abstract mode=
l that can be applicable at Layer-2 and Layer-3 along segments of different=
 technologies, for instance across a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges and =
then a (limited) number of IP routers, such as 6TiSCH nodes which, by the w=
ay, operate on a different MAC/PHY. The model should enable fully scheduled=
 operations by a central controller, with capabilities such as zero congest=
ion loss and live-live parallel transmission for increased reliability, as =
well as a more distributed model similar to Intserv, though bounded in reac=
h and possibilities.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:non=
e;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>WG description<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The Wo=
rking Group will focus on the signaling and forwarding models that are requ=
ired to enable an end-to-end path with the Deterministic properties of cont=
rolled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jitter, and High Reliability, ov=
er a moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 network composed of IEEE802.1 b=
ridges, routers, and hosts, within a single administrative domain such as a=
 campus or a Small/Home office Network.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The extent of the problem space =
for the WG includes the establishment and maintenance of multi-hop paths ov=
er Layer-2 bridged and Layer-3 routed segments, and though only Layer-3 ope=
rations will be specified in Standard Track documents, the group will maint=
ain consistency and compatibility with the concurrent work that is happenin=
g at IEEE802.1 TSN for the Layer-2 operations.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The work will include the c=
haracterization and the marking of flows. It will apply to flows that can b=
e well-characterized in a manner that allows to tightly reserve the appropr=
iate network resources for the flows in advance, and release/reuse the reso=
urces when they are not required. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The WG will interface with other approp=
riate groups in the IETF in the Internet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSV=
WG), Operations and Management, Routing and Security areas.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;pa=
dding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'=
>Work Items<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'color:#1F497D'>- Deliverables:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;* an analysis of the re=
quirements in a number of environments (3-4 drafts which would include proc=
ess control, factory automation, planes and video studios)<o:p></o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp; * A general =
problem statement including an analysis of the proposed solutions of the re=
lated work at IEEE802.1TSN, with a status of the work done and left to be a=
chieved, and the directions that are being taken.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp; * A solution taxonomy=
, where potential solution paradigms will be explored, such as Peer-to-peer=
 protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), Central controller (along the=
 lines of SDN or PCE), Connection to Operations (Application) Controllers, =
and Mixed scenarios.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp; * requirement drafts will be produced for other W=
Gs as deemed necessary, with for instance a requirement draft for the defin=
ition of a PHsB at the transport area.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp; * a study of generic scoping. Fo=
r IPv6, the study will include the definition of Link-Local, Realm-Local an=
d Admin-Local scoped operation (per RFC 7346) where for instance the determ=
inistic technology is consistent over a Link or a Realm Local Scope and ach=
ievable across technologies and layers over an Admin-Local scope. Similar s=
coping will be studied for IPv4.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;-&gt;&nbsp; all those docume=
nts planned for informational track <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;* a data model for flow c=
haracterization for use in flow reservation, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;* a flow identificat=
ion for use in packet forwarding, with declination on 6TiSCH and MPLS. <o:p=
></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&n=
bsp;&nbsp;-&gt; those would be standard track<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div=
 style=3D'border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in =
1.0pt 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Milestones<o:=
p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F4=
97D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:=
#1F497D'>TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after chartering<o:p></o=
:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Ch=
eers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1=
F497D'>Pascal<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></bo=
dy></html>=

--_000_8D3D17ACE214DC429325B2B98F3AE712077D725B1CMX15Acorpemcc_--


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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>, "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] are there any drafts published yet?
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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Black, David" <david.black@emc.com>, Karl Weber <karl.weber@beckhoff.com>, "Anca Zamfir (ancaz)" <ancaz@cisco.com>, "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>, "Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net)" <nordmark@sonic.net>, "Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)" <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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Thanks a bunch David!

Continuing...

(4) For deliverables:

- I would combine the first two, so that the use cases support both
      the problem statement and high-level requirements.

I expected multiple req drafts, like avionics, A/V, factory automation and/=
or process control, grid automation. This is for instance what we did at RO=
LL, with draft-ietf-roll-applicability-home-building draft-ietf-roll-applic=
ability-ami and draft-ietf-roll-rpl-industrial-applicability. From there we=
'd derive requirements. Is that OK?

- The IP scoping work feels like it's related to the solution taxonomy,
      but I'm not sure whether those should be combined.  At a minimum,
      the solution taxonomy should discuss the role of IP scope.

I changed the order to place the scoping higher on the list, and added ", i=
n relation to the IP generic scoping." in the end of the taxonomy draft des=
cription.

- There's probably some sequencing in the dates with the requirements
      and problem statement coming before the two standards-track
      documents.

Added "those would be standard track, and the work would progress once depe=
ndencies are resolved."



(5) Flow characterization - between the third paragraph in the WG
description and the deliverable, I'm missing something about how the
"data model for flow characterization" is intended to be used.

- Suggestion: list reservation protocols with which the model could
be used (e.g., RSVP) as examples, making it clear that the WG
decides which ones are relevant.

"a data model for flow characterization for use in flow reservation by the =
protocol(s) selected by the WG from the solution taxonomy (e.g. an evolutio=
n of PCEP or RSVP). "

- What is IEEE doing for flow reservation?  That should be mentioned.
"
  -> those would be standard track, and the work would progress once depend=
encies are resolved. The data models and flow tagging should be compatible =
with the similar work done at IEEE801.1TSN so they could be either directly=
 usable at both layers, or mappable in an unambiguous fashion."

(6) I wonder about committing this proposed WG to produce requirements
for work in other WGs.

- Some flexibility and lazy evaluation of where to do work may be
      better.
- I would suggest softening this language to talk about requirements
as deliverables, and discuss the possibility of work being
done in other WGs up in the main charter text.

We can change "requirements" into "needs"?

"The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Int=
ernet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Rou=
ting and Security areas. As the work progresses, some of the items initiall=
y considered at detnet may be transferred to those working groups as deemed=
 appropriate by all parties."

Cheers,

Pascal

From: Black, David [mailto:david.black@emc.com]
Sent: mercredi 24 septembre 2014 02:27
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Karl Weber; Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn=
 (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net); Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com=
)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org; Black, David
Subject: RE: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

Pascal,

-- (1) --
I agree with your concerns about interdomain and favoring Diffserv over Int=
serv.

I like the proposed addition to background text.  In the WG description edi=
ts:

A single administrative domain such as a campus, a Small/Home office Networ=
k, or a controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to start with, and app=
roaches that can be applied to the Internet at large will be favored.

I think ending the sentence at "a controlled Wide Area Network will be assu=
med to start with" suffices - I would admit "and approaches that can be app=
lied to the Internet at large will be favored."

-- (2) --
The new sentence is a significant improvement.

-- (3) --
The additional words look fine.

Thanks,
--David

From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 8:56 AM
To: Black, David; Karl Weber; Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Eri=
k Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net<mailto:nordmark@sonic.net>); Alia Atlas (aka=
tlas@gmail.com<mailto:akatlas@gmail.com>)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

So much content here!

Many thanks to both of you. Addressing this and Karl's point:

(1) How does this relate to IETF's focus on the public (capital-I) Internet=
?

- Would it be reasonable to envision deterministic networking running
over (suitably provisioned) Internet paths in a network, e.g.,
to connect related industrial sites?
- I'm reacting to "very controlled environment" at the end of the
      second paragraph in Background and suggesting some text to
      address the broader possibilities.


I'm a bit concerned about knee jerks on complexity in particular related to=
 interdomain, IOW I'd rather stay closer to a diffserv scope than an intser=
v where the whole network needs to understand the tags in a consistent fash=
ion. What about adding in the background something like:

"The integration of determinism in Internet Technology becomes a necessity =
as deterministic networks become structured, and require forwarding beyond =
LAN boundaries. For instance, Industrial Automation segregates the network =
along the broad lines of the Purdue Enterprise Reference Architecture (PERA=
), using different technologies at each level, and public infrastructures s=
uch as Electricity Automation require deterministic properties over the Wid=
e Area. "

In the WG descrition, we could also modify the first sentence to:
"
The Working Group will initially focus on the signaling and packet tagging =
that are required to enable and forward along an end-to-end path with the d=
eterministic properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low j=
itter, and High Reliability. The network will initially be of moderate size=
, composed of mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 sub-networks of IEEE802.1 bridges, ro=
uters, and hosts. A single administrative domain such as a campus, a Small/=
Home office Network, or a controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to s=
tart with, and approaches that can be applied to the Internet at large will=
 be favored.
"


(2) I see a disconnect between the charter text's focus on "models"
and the two specific standards track protocol deliverables.

- This starts at the end of the background that seems to scope the
      work solely to models.  The proposed work is not just to
      produce models, but also protocol support for deterministic
      IP-based networking (some of which might take place in other
      WGs).

Yes, I think I see what you're saying. My point is that the work on the dat=
a model for signaling elements and a study of state and tagging can start b=
efore the architectural model is fully understood. For one thing, the work =
on deterministic PHB has already started at TSVWG, and a study on generaliz=
ing MLPS labels can also start now. What about changing the last paragraph =
to:

"
In order to serve those needs, the IETF and the IEEE need to collaborate an=
d define an abstract model that can be applicable at Layer-2 and Layer-3 al=
ong segments of different technologies. With this new work, a path may span=
 for instance across a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges and then a (limite=
d) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE802.1 bridges may be oper=
ating at Layer-2 over Ethernet whereas the IP routers may be 6TiSCH nodes o=
perating at Layer-2 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.15.4e MAC. The proposed=
 model should enable fully scheduled operations by a central controller, wi=
th capabilities such as zero congestion loss and live-live parallel transmi=
ssion for increased reliability, as well as a more distributed model simila=
r to Intserv, though bounded in reach and possibilities.

In parallel to the definition of the abstract model, the IETF needs also to=
 define tagging and signaling elements to be used to establish a path and i=
dentify the flows, and how they can be instantiated on relevant technologie=
s such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH.
"

(3) Please add a sentence or two on how coordination with the IEEE
is envisioned to work.

- How do we ensure (or at least make it highly likely) that the IEEE
      and IETF develop and work with common models and requirements?
- This is about heading off divergence in advance, and might be as
      simple as key people participating in both organizations.

In practice, we already have Pat Thaler participating, and a number of memb=
ers who participate to both. So I'm not too anxious there.
Still, yes, this needs to be clarified. What about updating the second sent=
ence to:
"
The extent of the problem space for the WG includes the establishment and m=
aintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-3 routed segme=
nts. Though only Layer-3 operations will be specified in Standard Track doc=
uments, the group will maintain consistency and compatibility with the conc=
urrent work that is happening at IEEE802.1 TSN for the Layer-2 operations, =
leveraging cross-participation and liaison work.
"

I'm still working on the last 3 items, but I wanted to share this already. =
Following up later in the day.

Cheers,

Pascal

From: Black, David [mailto:david.black@emc.com]
Sent: lundi 22 septembre 2014 23:07
To: Karl Weber; Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn=
 (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net<mailto:nordmark@sonic.net>); Al=
ia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com<mailto:akatlas@gmail.com>)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

Karl,

Nice explanation - I think it'd be good for the charter to include that sor=
t of hierarchy discussion.  The possibility of using the Internet to interc=
onnect the local networks would definitely help to connect this proposed wo=
rk to the IETF's mission.

Thanks,
--David

From: Karl Weber [mailto:karl.weber@beckhoff.com]
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 12:38 PM
To: Black, David; Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Fi=
nn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net<mailto:nordmark@sonic.net>); =
Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com<mailto:akatlas@gmail.com>)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

David,

A few cents regarding (1)
Industrial control is structured in several hierarchical levels.
It would be difficult to put everything in a single LAN - thus, a structure=
d system would be fine and IETF may be a good choice to structure a machine=
ry park.

The most important area is the infrastructuring area: water, waste, electri=
city and transposrt.
Especially electricity requires a highly deterministic network and it is de=
finitely a WAN.
Wind parks/Virtual power plants are other examples in this areas.

And electricity is a very important factor for the quality of production se=
amless interaction between infrastructure and production will be a key succ=
ess factor in the future ...

Motors and other equipment may be used in infrastructure and industry - a c=
ommon approach is highly welcome.

And cars would require a common deterministic link to run in an convoy each=
 of them a few centimeters distance to use the slipstream effect.


-        - Karl


Beckhoff Automation GmbH | Managing Director: Dipl. Phys. Hans Beckhoff, Ar=
nold Beckhoff
Registered office: Verl, Germany | Register court: G=FCtersloh HRB 1803
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Black, David
Sent: Montag, 22. September 2014 17:52
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Er=
ik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net<mailto:nordmark@sonic.net>); Alia Atlas (ak=
atlas@gmail.com<mailto:akatlas@gmail.com>)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

Pascal,

This text looks promising.  Here are a few things to consider.

(1) How does this relate to IETF's focus on the public (capital-I) Internet=
?

- Would it be reasonable to envision deterministic networking running
over (suitably provisioned) Internet paths in a network, e.g.,
to connect related industrial sites?
- I'm reacting to "very controlled environment" at the end of the
      second paragraph in Background and suggesting some text to
      address the broader possibilities.

(2) I see a disconnect between the charter text's focus on "models"
and the two specific standards track protocol deliverables.

- This starts at the end of the background that seems to scope the
      work solely to models.  The proposed work is not just to
      produce models, but also protocol support for deterministic
      IP-based networking (some of which might take place in other
      WGs).

(3) Please add a sentence or two on how coordination with the IEEE
is envisioned to work.

- How do we ensure (or at least make it highly likely) that the IEEE
      and IETF develop and work with common models and requirements?
- This is about heading off divergence in advance, and might be as
      simple as key people participating in both organizations.

(4) For deliverables:

- I would combine the first two, so that the use cases support both
      the problem statement and high-level requirements.
- The IP scoping work feels like it's related to the solution taxonomy,
      but I'm not sure whether those should be combined.  At a minimum,
      the solution taxonomy should discuss the role of IP scope.
- There's probably some sequencing in the dates with the requirements
      and problem statement coming before the two standards-track
      documents.

(5) Flow characterization - between the third paragraph in the WG
description and the deliverable, I'm missing something about how the
"data model for flow characterization" is intended to be used.

- Suggestion: list reservation protocols with which the model could
be used (e.g., RSVP) as examples, making it clear that the WG
decides which ones are relevant.
- What is IEEE doing for flow reservation?  That should be mentioned.

(6) I wonder about committing this proposed WG to produce requirements
for work in other WGs.

- Some flexibility and lazy evaluation of where to do work may be
      better.
- I would suggest softening this language to talk about requirements
as deliverables, and discuss the possibility of work being
done in other WGs up in the main charter text.



Thanks,
--David

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (=
pthubert)
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 9:48 AM
To: Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic=
.net<mailto:nordmark@sonic.net>); Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com<mailto:akat=
las@gmail.com>)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it

Dear all:

Please find below my latest and the txt version attached. I included (my un=
derstanding of) Anca's point (Thanks Anca!) as well as a multilayer/segment=
 discussion as stirred by George. I stole and adapted text from various pla=
ces, the original authors will recognize themselves : )



Background on deterministic networking


Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typicall=
y used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as well as move=
ment detection systems for use in Process Control (i.e., process manufactur=
ing) and Factory Automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its diff=
erent goals, OT has evolved totally in parallel and in a manner that is rad=
ically different from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and deter=
ministic networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.

The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Inter=
net, will represent a major evolution for both sides. The work has already =
started; in particular, the Industrial Automation space has been developing=
 a number of Ethernet-based "fieldbus" replacements, meant to provide "dete=
rminism", with the focus to transport a fully characterized flow over a ver=
y controlled environment (i.e., a "well regulated" factory floor), with a b=
ounded latency, a low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter.

In parallel, a high demand for a standard format drove the formation of the=
 Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the=
 professional and home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical ap=
plications, AVB networks share very similar characteristics. Other instance=
s of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for instance in the contex=
t of vehicles and avionics, with the mission-critical "Avionics Full-Duplex=
 Switched Ethernet" (AFDX) that was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standa=
rds. The work started at the IEEE802.1 to provide deterministic Ethernet A/=
V Bridging has now generalized and was renamed "Time Sensitive Networking" =
(TSN).

The IETF and the IEEE need now to collaborate and define an abstract model =
that can be applicable at Layer-2 and Layer-3 along segments of different t=
echnologies, for instance across a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges and th=
en a (limited) number of IP routers, such as 6TiSCH nodes which, by the way=
, operate on a different MAC/PHY. The model should enable fully scheduled o=
perations by a central controller, with capabilities such as zero congestio=
n loss and live-live parallel transmission for increased reliability, as we=
ll as a more distributed model similar to Intserv, though bounded in reach =
and possibilities.


WG description


The Working Group will focus on the signaling and forwarding models that ar=
e required to enable an end-to-end path with the Deterministic properties o=
f controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jitter, and High Reliabili=
ty, over a moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 network composed of IEEE8=
02.1 bridges, routers, and hosts, within a single administrative domain suc=
h as a campus or a Small/Home office Network.

The extent of the problem space for the WG includes the establishment and m=
aintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 bridged and Layer-3 routed segme=
nts, and though only Layer-3 operations will be specified in Standard Track=
 documents, the group will maintain consistency and compatibility with the =
concurrent work that is happening at IEEE802.1 TSN for the Layer-2 operatio=
ns.

The work will include the characterization and the marking of flows. It wil=
l apply to flows that can be well-characterized in a manner that allows to =
tightly reserve the appropriate network resources for the flows in advance,=
 and release/reuse the resources when they are not required.

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Inte=
rnet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Rout=
ing and Security areas.

Work Items


- Deliverables:

  * an analysis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 drafts=
 which would include process control, factory automation, planes and video =
studios)
  * A general problem statement including an analysis of the proposed solut=
ions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN, with a status of the work done an=
d left to be achieved, and the directions that are being taken.
  * A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explore=
d, such as Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), Centra=
l controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), Connection to Operations (App=
lication) Controllers, and Mixed scenarios.
  * requirement drafts will be produced for other WGs as deemed necessary, =
with for instance a requirement draft for the definition of a PHsB at the t=
ransport area.
  * a study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the defini=
tion of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (per RFC 7=
346) where for instance the deterministic technology is consistent over a L=
ink or a Realm Local Scope and achievable across technologies and layers ov=
er an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.

  ->  all those documents planned for informational track

  * a data model for flow characterization for use in flow reservation,
  * a flow identification for use in packet forwarding, with declination on=
 6TiSCH and MPLS.

  -> those would be standard track

Milestones


TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after chartering


Cheers,

Pascal

--_000_E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DD9C1Exmbrcdx01ciscoc_
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks a bunch David!<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Continuing&#8230;<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(4) For deliverables:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- I would combine the first two, so that the u=
se cases support both<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the problem sta=
tement and high-level requirements.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I expected multiple re=
q drafts, like avionics, A/V, factory automation and/or process control, gr=
id automation. This is for instance what we did at ROLL, with draft-ietf-ro=
ll-applicability-home-building draft-ietf-roll-applicability-ami
 and draft-ietf-roll-rpl-industrial-applicability. From there we&#8217;d de=
rive requirements. Is that OK?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- The IP scoping work feels like it&#8217;s re=
lated to the solution taxonomy,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; but I&#8217;m n=
ot sure whether those should be combined.&nbsp; At a minimum,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the solution ta=
xonomy should discuss the role of IP scope.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I changed the order to=
 place the scoping higher on the list, and added &#8220;, in relation to th=
e IP generic scoping.&#8221; in the end of the taxonomy draft description.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- There&#8217;s probably some sequencing in th=
e dates with the requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and problem sta=
tement coming before the two standards-track<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; documents.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Added &#8220;those wou=
ld be standard track, and the work would progress once dependencies are res=
olved.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(5) Flow characterization - between the third =
paragraph in the WG<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">description and the deliverable, I&#8217;m mis=
sing something about how the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&#8220;data model for flow characterization&#8=
221; is intended to be used.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- Suggestion: list reservation protocols with =
which the model could<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">be used (e.g., RS=
VP) as examples, making it clear that the WG<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">decides which one=
s are relevant.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8220;a</span> <span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D">
data model for flow characterization for use in flow reservation by the pro=
tocol(s) selected by the WG from the solution taxonomy (e.g. an evolution o=
f PCEP or RSVP).</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"> &#8220;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- What is IEEE doing for flow reservation?&nbs=
p; That should be mentioned.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8220;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp; -&gt; those wou=
ld be standard track, and the work would progress once dependencies are res=
olved. The data models and flow tagging should be compatible with the simil=
ar work done at IEEE801.1TSN so they could be
 either directly usable at both layers, or mappable in an unambiguous fashi=
on.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(6) I wonder about committing this proposed WG=
 to produce requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">for work in other WGs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- Some flexibility and lazy evaluation of wher=
e to do work may be<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; better.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- I would suggest softening this language to t=
alk about requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">as deliverables, =
and discuss the possibility of work being<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">done in other WGs=
 up in the main charter text.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">We can change &#8220;r=
equirements&#8221; into &#8220;needs&#8221;?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8220;The WG will int=
erface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Internet (e.g. 6TiS=
CH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Routing and Securit=
y areas. As the work progresses, some of the
 items initially considered at detnet may be transferred to those working g=
roups as deemed appropriate by all parties.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Pascal<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Black, D=
avid [mailto:david.black@emc.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> mercredi 24 septembre 2014 02:27<br>
<b>To:</b> Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Karl Weber; Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norm=
an Finn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (nordmark@sonic.net); Alia Atlas (akatlas@gm=
ail.com)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> detnet@ietf.org; Black, David<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Pascal,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">-- (1) --<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">I agree with your concerns about interdomain a=
nd favoring Diffserv over Intserv.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">I like the proposed addition to background tex=
t.&nbsp; In the WG description edits:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">A single administrativ=
e domain such as a campus, a Small/Home office Network,
<span style=3D"background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">or a controlled Wide=
 Area Network will be assumed to start with, and approaches that can be app=
lied to the Internet at large will be favored.</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">I think ending the sentence at &#8220;a contro=
lled Wide Area Network will be assumed to start with&#8221; suffices - I wo=
uld admit &#8220;and approaches that can be applied to the Internet
 at large will be favored.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">-- (2) --<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">The new sentence is a significant improvement.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">-- (3) --<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">The additional words look fine.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Thanks,<br>
--David</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blac=
k"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Pascal T=
hubert (pthubert) [<a href=3D"mailto:pthubert@cisco.com">mailto:pthubert@ci=
sco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 23, 2014 8:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Black, David; Karl Weber; Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfin=
n); Erik Nordmark (<a href=3D"mailto:nordmark@sonic.net">nordmark@sonic.net=
</a>); Alia Atlas (<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@gmail.com</=
a>)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">So much content here! =
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Many thanks to both of=
 you. Addressing this and Karl&#8217;s point:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(1) How does this relate to IETF&#8217;s focus=
 on the public (capital-I) Internet?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- Would it be reasonable to envision determini=
stic networking running<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">over (suitably pr=
ovisioned) Internet paths in a network, e.g.,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">to connect relate=
d industrial sites?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- I&#8217;m reacting to &#8220;very controlled=
 environment&#8221; at the end of the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; second paragrap=
h in Background and suggesting some text to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; address the bro=
ader possibilities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m a bit concer=
ned about knee jerks on complexity in particular related to interdomain, IO=
W I&#8217;d rather stay closer to a diffserv scope than an intserv where th=
e whole network needs to understand the tags in
 a consistent fashion. What about adding in the background something like: =
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8220;The integration=
 of determinism in Internet Technology becomes a necessity as deterministic=
 networks become structured, and require forwarding beyond LAN boundaries. =
For instance, Industrial Automation segregates
 the network along the broad lines of the Purdue Enterprise Reference Archi=
tecture (PERA), using different technologies at each level, and public infr=
astructures such as Electricity Automation require deterministic properties=
 over the Wide Area. &#8220;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">In the WG descrition, =
we could also modify the first sentence to:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8220;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The Working Group will=
 initially focus on the signaling and packet tagging that are required to e=
nable and forward along an end-to-end path with the deterministic propertie=
s of controlled latency, low packet
 loss, ultra-low jitter, and High Reliability. The network will initially b=
e of moderate size, composed of mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 sub-networks of IEE=
E802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts. A single administrative domain such as =
a campus, a Small/Home office Network,
<span style=3D"background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">or a controlled Wide=
 Area Network will be assumed to start with, and approaches that can be app=
lied to the Internet at large will be favored.</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8220;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(2) I see a disconnect between the charter tex=
t&#8217;s focus on &#8220;models&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">and the two specific standards track protocol =
deliverables.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- This starts at the end of the background tha=
t seems to scope the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; work solely to =
models.&nbsp; The proposed work is not just to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; produce models,=
 but also protocol support for deterministic<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IP-based networ=
king (some of which might take place in other<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WGs).<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Yes, I think I see wha=
t you&#8217;re saying. My point is that the work on the data model for sign=
aling elements and a study of state and tagging can start before the archit=
ectural model is fully understood. For one
 thing, the work on deterministic PHB has already started at TSVWG, and a s=
tudy on generalizing MLPS labels can also start now. What about changing th=
e last paragraph to:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8220;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">In order to serve thos=
e needs, the IETF and the IEEE need to collaborate and define an abstract m=
odel that can be applicable at Layer-2 and Layer-3 along segments of differ=
ent technologies. With this new work,
 a path may span for instance across a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges an=
d then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE802.1 bri=
dges may be operating at Layer-2 over Ethernet whereas the IP routers may b=
e 6TiSCH nodes operating at Layer-2
 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.15.4e MAC. The proposed model should enabl=
e fully scheduled operations by a central controller, with capabilities suc=
h as zero congestion loss and live-live parallel transmission for increased=
 reliability, as well as a more
 distributed model similar to Intserv, though bounded in reach and possibil=
ities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;background:yellow;mso-h=
ighlight:yellow">In parallel to the definition of the abstract model, the I=
ETF needs also to define tagging and signaling elements to be used to estab=
lish a path and identify the flows,
 and how they can be instantiated on relevant technologies such as PCE, MPL=
S and 6TiSCH.</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8220;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(3) Please add a sentence or two on how coordi=
nation with the IEEE<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">is envisioned to work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- How do we ensure (or at least make it highly=
 likely) that the IEEE<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and IETF develo=
p and work with common models and requirements?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- This is about heading off divergence in adva=
nce, and might be as<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; simple as key p=
eople participating in both organizations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">In practice, we alread=
y have Pat Thaler participating, and a number of members who participate to=
 both. So I&#8217;m not too anxious there.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Still, yes, this needs=
 to be clarified. What about updating the second sentence to:<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8220;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The extent of the prob=
lem space for the WG includes the establishment and maintenance of multi-ho=
p paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-3 routed segments. Though only Layer=
-3 operations will be specified in Standard
 Track documents, the group will maintain consistency and compatibility wit=
h the concurrent work that is happening at IEEE802.1 TSN for the Layer-2 op=
erations,
<span style=3D"background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">leveraging cross-par=
ticipation and liaison work.</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8220;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m still workin=
g on the last 3 items, but I wanted to share this already. Following up lat=
er in the day.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Pascal<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Black, D=
avid [<a href=3D"mailto:david.black@emc.com">mailto:david.black@emc.com</a>=
]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lundi 22 septembre 2014 23:07<br>
<b>To:</b> Karl Weber; Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norm=
an Finn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (<a href=3D"mailto:nordmark@sonic.net">nordm=
ark@sonic.net</a>); Alia Atlas (<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatla=
s@gmail.com</a>)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Karl,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Nice explanation - I think it&#8217;d be good =
for the charter to include that sort of hierarchy discussion.&nbsp; The pos=
sibility of using the Internet to interconnect the local
 networks would definitely help to connect this proposed work to the IETF&#=
8217;s mission.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Thanks,<br>
--David</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blac=
k"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Karl Web=
er [<a href=3D"mailto:karl.weber@beckhoff.com">mailto:karl.weber@beckhoff.c=
om</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 22, 2014 12:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Black, David; Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); No=
rman Finn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (<a href=3D"mailto:nordmark@sonic.net">nor=
dmark@sonic.net</a>); Alia Atlas (<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akat=
las@gmail.com</a>)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">David,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">A few cents regarding =
(1)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Industrial control is =
structured in several hierarchical levels.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">It would be difficult =
to put everything in a single LAN &#8211; thus, a structured system would b=
e fine and IETF may be a good choice to structure a machinery park.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The most important are=
a is the infrastructuring area: water, waste, electricity and transposrt.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Especially electricity=
 requires a highly deterministic network and it is definitely a WAN.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Wind parks/Virtual pow=
er plants are other examples in this areas.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">And electricity is a v=
ery important factor for the quality of production seamless interaction bet=
ween infrastructure and production will be a key success factor in the futu=
re &#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Motors and other equip=
ment may be used in infrastructure and industry &#8211; a common approach i=
s highly welcome.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">And cars would require=
 a common deterministic link to run in an convoy each of them a few centime=
ters distance to use the slipstream effect.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:20.4pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:=
Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">- Karl<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">Beckhoff Automation GmbH | Managing Director: Dipl. Phys. =
Hans Beckhoff, Arnold Beckhoff<br>
Registered office: Verl, Germany | Register court: G=FCtersloh HRB 1803</sp=
an><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,=
&quot;serif&quot;">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> detnet [=
<a href=3D"mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Black, David<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Montag, 22. September 2014 17:52<br>
<b>To:</b> Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfi=
nn); Erik Nordmark (<a href=3D"mailto:nordmark@sonic.net">nordmark@sonic.ne=
t</a>); Alia Atlas (<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@gmail.com<=
/a>)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Pascal,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">This text looks promising.&nbsp; Here are a fe=
w things to consider.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(1) How does this relate to IETF&#8217;s focus=
 on the public (capital-I) Internet?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- Would it be reasonable to envision determini=
stic networking running<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">over (suitably pr=
ovisioned) Internet paths in a network, e.g.,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">to connect relate=
d industrial sites?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- I&#8217;m reacting to &#8220;very controlled=
 environment&#8221; at the end of the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; second paragrap=
h in Background and suggesting some text to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; address the bro=
ader possibilities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(2) I see a disconnect between the charter tex=
t&#8217;s focus on &#8220;models&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">and the two specific standards track protocol =
deliverables.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- This starts at the end of the background tha=
t seems to scope the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; work solely to =
models.&nbsp; The proposed work is not just to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; produce models,=
 but also protocol support for deterministic<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IP-based networ=
king (some of which might take place in other<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WGs).<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(3) Please add a sentence or two on how coordi=
nation with the IEEE<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">is envisioned to work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- How do we ensure (or at least make it highly=
 likely) that the IEEE<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and IETF develo=
p and work with common models and requirements?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- This is about heading off divergence in adva=
nce, and might be as<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; simple as key p=
eople participating in both organizations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(4) For deliverables:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- I would combine the first two, so that the u=
se cases support both<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the problem sta=
tement and high-level requirements.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- The IP scoping work feels like it&#8217;s re=
lated to the solution taxonomy,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; but I&#8217;m n=
ot sure whether those should be combined.&nbsp; At a minimum,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the solution ta=
xonomy should discuss the role of IP scope.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- There&#8217;s probably some sequencing in th=
e dates with the requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and problem sta=
tement coming before the two standards-track<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; documents.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(5) Flow characterization - between the third =
paragraph in the WG<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">description and the deliverable, I&#8217;m mis=
sing something about how the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&#8220;data model for flow characterization&#8=
221; is intended to be used.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- Suggestion: list reservation protocols with =
which the model could<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">be used (e.g., RS=
VP) as examples, making it clear that the WG<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">decides which one=
s are relevant.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- What is IEEE doing for flow reservation?&nbs=
p; That should be mentioned.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">(6) I wonder about committing this proposed WG=
 to produce requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">for work in other WGs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- Some flexibility and lazy evaluation of wher=
e to do work may be<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; better.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">- I would suggest softening this language to t=
alk about requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">as deliverables, =
and discuss the possibility of work being<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">done in other WGs=
 up in the main charter text.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Thanks,<br>
--David</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blac=
k"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> detnet [=
<a href=3D"mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Pascal Thubert (pthubert)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 22, 2014 9:48 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); Erik Nordmark (<a href=
=3D"mailto:nordmark@sonic.net">nordmark@sonic.net</a>); Alia Atlas (<a href=
=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@gmail.com</a>)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Dear all:<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Please find below my l=
atest and the txt version attached. I included (my understanding of) Anca&#=
8217;s point (Thanks Anca!) as well as a multilayer/segment discussion as s=
tirred by George. I stole and adapted text
 from various places, the original authors will recognize themselves : )<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Background on determin=
istic networking
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Operational Technology=
 (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typically used for monitoring =
systems and supporting control loops, as well as movement detection systems=
 for use in Process Control (i.e., process
 manufacturing) and Factory Automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due =
to its different goals, OT has evolved totally in parallel and in a manner =
that is radically different from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliabl=
e and deterministic networks, with
 limited scalability over a bounded area.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The convergence of IT =
and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Internet, will represent a =
major evolution for both sides. The work has already started; in particular=
, the Industrial Automation space has
 been developing a number of Ethernet-based &#8220;fieldbus&#8221; replacem=
ents, meant to provide &#8220;determinism&#8221;, with the focus to transpo=
rt a fully characterized flow over a very controlled environment (i.e., a &=
#8220;well regulated&#8221; factory floor), with a bounded latency,
 a low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">In parallel, a high de=
mand for a standard format drove the formation of the Audio/Video Bridging =
(AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the professional and home=
 audio/video markets. While aimed at
 less critical applications, AVB networks share very similar characteristic=
s. Other instances of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for insta=
nce in the context of vehicles and avionics, with the mission-critical &#82=
20;Avionics Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet&#8221;
 (AFDX) that was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standards. The work start=
ed at the IEEE802.1 to provide deterministic Ethernet A/V Bridging has now =
generalized and was renamed &quot;Time Sensitive Networking&quot; (TSN).<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The IETF and the IEEE =
need now to collaborate and define an abstract model that can be applicable=
 at Layer-2 and Layer-3 along segments of different technologies, for insta=
nce across a (limited) number of 802.1
 bridges and then a (limited) number of IP routers, such as 6TiSCH nodes wh=
ich, by the way, operate on a different MAC/PHY. The model should enable fu=
lly scheduled operations by a central controller, with capabilities such as=
 zero congestion loss and live-live
 parallel transmission for increased reliability, as well as a more distrib=
uted model similar to Intserv, though bounded in reach and possibilities.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">WG description<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The Working Group will=
 focus on the signaling and forwarding models that are required to enable a=
n end-to-end path with the Deterministic properties of controlled latency, =
low packet loss, ultra-low jitter, and
 High Reliability, over a moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 network co=
mposed of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts, within a single administra=
tive domain such as a campus or a Small/Home office Network.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The extent of the prob=
lem space for the WG includes the establishment and maintenance of multi-ho=
p paths over Layer-2 bridged and Layer-3 routed segments, and though only L=
ayer-3 operations will be specified
 in Standard Track documents, the group will maintain consistency and compa=
tibility with the concurrent work that is happening at IEEE802.1 TSN for th=
e Layer-2 operations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The work will include =
the characterization and the marking of flows. It will apply to flows that =
can be well-characterized in a manner that allows to tightly reserve the ap=
propriate network resources for the
 flows in advance, and release/reuse the resources when they are not requir=
ed. <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The WG will interface =
with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Internet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Tr=
ansport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Routing and Security areas=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Work Items<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">- Deliverables:<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* an analy=
sis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 drafts which would=
 include process control, factory automation, planes and video studios)<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp; * A general pro=
blem statement including an analysis of the proposed solutions of the relat=
ed work at IEEE802.1TSN, with a status of the work done and left to be achi=
eved, and the directions that are being taken.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp; * A solution ta=
xonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explored, such as Peer-t=
o-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), Central controller (alo=
ng the lines of SDN or PCE), Connection to
 Operations (Application) Controllers, and Mixed scenarios.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp; * requirement d=
rafts will be produced for other WGs as deemed necessary, with for instance=
 a requirement draft for the definition of a PHsB at the transport area.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp; * a study of ge=
neric scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the definition of Link-Loca=
l, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (per RFC 7346) where for in=
stance the deterministic technology is consistent
 over a Link or a Realm Local Scope and achievable across technologies and =
layers over an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;-&gt;&nbsp=
; all those documents planned for informational track
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* a data m=
odel for flow characterization for use in flow reservation,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* a flow i=
dentification for use in packet forwarding, with declination on 6TiSCH and =
MPLS.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;-&gt; thos=
e would be standard track<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Milestones<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">TBD, probably all draf=
ts to IESG one year after chartering<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Pascal<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DD9C1Exmbrcdx01ciscoc_--


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Thread-Topic: [Detnet] are there any drafts published yet?
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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: Erik Nordmark <nordmark@acm.org>, "Anca Zamfir (ancaz)" <ancaz@cisco.com>,  "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>, "Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)" <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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Hello Erik:

Thanks for all this.

In the last sentence of the background, we could show more clearly where we=
're going:

"
Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF needs also to define which=
 protocol(s) will be applied or extended, and to produce tagging and signal=
ing elements to be used to establish a path and identify the flows, and how=
 they can be instantiated on relevant technologies such as PCE, MPLS and 6T=
iSCH. As a result of this work, it will be possible to establish an end-to-=
end path for a particular flow with precise timing and throughput requireme=
nts, and transport this flow over the IP network with such characteristics =
as precise timing, duplication and elimination over non-congruent paths, an=
d/or zero congestion loss. Depending on the network capabilities and on the=
 current state, requests may be granted or rejected, and the associated res=
ervation may be moved or cancelled. =20
"

I would rather commit for a limited standard deliverable in this round and =
then recharter for the full blown commitment when we know better what we ar=
e after. But then, if you can propose alternate text/updates to the attache=
d v3 draft, you are more than welcome!

Cheers,

Pascal


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Erik Nordmark [mailto:nordmark@acm.org]
> Sent: mardi 23 septembre 2014 01:40
> To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn (nfinn); =
Alia
> Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)
> Cc: detnet@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
>=20
> Pascal,
>=20
> There is useful information in this charter. But when I look at the
> deliverables it reads as if the WG will work for a few years and produce
> various documents, but not much in terms of standards and associated
> creation of interoperable implementations.
>=20
> A key question for me is how do we see the network operating differently =
as
> a result of DETNET; I assume some protocols need to be changed in some
> ways. Understanding how we see it working differently is key in
> understanding the architectural impact as well.
> Thus I'd definitely would like some more concrete details and a clear pat=
h
> towards useful things being standardized and implemented.
>=20
> Norm's slides had more specifics. For example the need to be able to say
> "no" i.e. some form of admission control. The proposed text talks about t=
hat
> in the form of a solutions taxonomy. But if we want to accomplish
> something more than documents, I think the path needs to include the WG
> choosing a protocol (or possibly choosing a separate protocol for a
> distributed vs. a centralized approach); keep in mind that we get
> interoperability by making decisions that lead to a small set of mandator=
y to
> implement protocols and options.
>=20
> The ADs might want to manage the charter in a step-wise way with some
> initial set of documents before a WG can work on picking a solution. But =
I
> would strive to make that initial set of documents small with crisp conte=
nt.
>=20
> My 2 cents,
>     Erik
>=20
> On 9/22/14 6:48 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
> >
> > Dear all:
> >
> > Please find below my latest and the txt version attached. I included
> > (my understanding of) Anca's point (Thanks Anca!) as well as a
> > multilayer/segment discussion as stirred by George. I stole and
> > adapted text from various places, the original authors will recognize
> > themselves : )
> >
> > Background on deterministic networking
> >
> > Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are
> > typically used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as
> > well as movement detection systems for use in Process Control (i.e.,
> > process manufacturing) and Factory Automation (i.e., discrete
> > manufacturing). Due to its different goals, OT has evolved totally in
> > parallel and in a manner that is radically different from IT/ICT,
> > focusing on highly secure, reliable and deterministic networks, with
> > limited scalability over a bounded area.
> >
> > The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial
> > Internet, will represent a major evolution for both sides. The work
> > has already started; in particular, the Industrial Automation space
> > has been developing a number of Ethernet-based "fieldbus"
> > replacements, meant to provide "determinism", with the focus to
> > transport a fully characterized flow over a very controlled
> > environment (i.e., a "well regulated" factory floor), with a bounded
> > latency, a low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter.
> >
> > In parallel, a high demand for a standard format drove the formation
> > of the Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1,
> > destined to the professional and home audio/video markets. While aimed
> > at less critical applications, AVB networks share very similar
> > characteristics. Other instances of deterministic networks have arisen
> > as well, for instance in the context of vehicles and avionics, with
> > the mission-critical "Avionics Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet" (AFDX)
> > that was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standards. The work started
> > at the IEEE802.1 to provide deterministic Ethernet A/V Bridging has
> > now generalized and was renamed "Time Sensitive Networking" (TSN).
> >
> > The IETF and the IEEE need now to collaborate and define an abstract
> > model that can be applicable at Layer-2 and Layer-3 along segments of
> > different technologies, for instance across a (limited) number of
> > 802.1 bridges and then a (limited) number of IP routers, such as
> > 6TiSCH nodes which, by the way, operate on a different MAC/PHY. The
> > model should enable fully scheduled operations by a central
> > controller, with capabilities such as zero congestion loss and
> > live-live parallel transmission for increased reliability, as well as
> > a more distributed model similar to Intserv, though bounded in reach
> > and possibilities.
> >
> > WG description
> >
> > The Working Group will focus on the signaling and forwarding models
> > that are required to enable an end-to-end path with the Deterministic
> > properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jitter,
> > and High Reliability, over a moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3
> > network composed of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts, within a
> > single administrative domain such as a campus or a Small/Home office
> > Network.
> >
> > The extent of the problem space for the WG includes the establishment
> > and maintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 bridged and Layer-3
> > routed segments, and though only Layer-3 operations will be specified
> > in Standard Track documents, the group will maintain consistency and
> > compatibility with the concurrent work that is happening at IEEE802.1
> > TSN for the Layer-2 operations.
> >
> > The work will include the characterization and the marking of flows.
> > It will apply to flows that can be well-characterized in a manner that
> > allows to tightly reserve the appropriate network resources for the
> > flows in advance, and release/reuse the resources when they are not
> > required.
> >
> > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the
> > Internet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and
> > Management, Routing and Security areas.
> >
> > Work Items
> >
> > - Deliverables:
> >
> >   * an analysis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4
> > drafts which would include process control, factory automation, planes
> > and video studios)
> >
> >   * A general problem statement including an analysis of the proposed
> > solutions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN, with a status of the
> > work done and left to be achieved, and the directions that are being
> > taken.
> >
> >   * A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be
> > explored, such as Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or
> > RSVP), Central controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), Connection
> > to Operations (Application) Controllers, and Mixed scenarios.
> >
> >   * requirement drafts will be produced for other WGs as deemed
> > necessary, with for instance a requirement draft for the definition of
> > a PHsB at the transport area.
> >
> >   * a study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the
> > definition of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation
> > (per RFC 7346) where for instance the deterministic technology is
> > consistent over a Link or a Realm Local Scope and achievable across
> > technologies and layers over an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping
> > will be studied for IPv4.
> >
> >   ->  all those documents planned for informational track
> >
> >   * a data model for flow characterization for use in flow
> > reservation,
> >
> >   * a flow identification for use in packet forwarding, with
> > declination on 6TiSCH and MPLS.
> >
> >   -> those would be standard track
> >
> > Milestones
> >
> > TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after chartering
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Pascal
> >


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From: "Shitanshu Shah (svshah)" <svshah@cisco.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, Erik Nordmark <nordmark@acm.org>, "Anca Zamfir (ancaz)" <ancaz@cisco.com>, "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>, "Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)" <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
Thread-Index: Ac/TIE0leFbkxe14RJ6u6JZu2uxB1wBRszYAAA6DFtD//5tngIAAdJBQgAQq0Yv//WlkIIAF+wEA
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:28:19 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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Hi Pascal,

Just got into this mailing list. Since don=B9t have original e-mail with
charter skeleton, picking this e-mail to respond to your original proposed
text..

Few comments/questions

(1) last sentence of last paragraph in the Background section,
  "as well as a more distributed model similar to Intserv=B2

  Is there any reason/need to highlight =B3Intserv=B2? You have background
covered well that highlights requirement of determinism. I am not clear
what Intserv signifies here.



(2) In the WG description

  Use of term =B3consistency=B2 between L2 and L3 is too loose and practica=
lly
difficult to decide where to draw a line. Like IP can support 64
code-points, L2 supports only 8. Like flow specification may differ L3 vs
L2. Trying to achieve consistency in some of such places may mean limiting
proposed solution for IP or even vice-versa.

 I think compatibility and Inter-operability makes sense. IMO
=B3consistency=B2 should not be mentioned here for those reasons.



(3) In the WG description

  "The work will include the characterization and the marking of flows.=B2

  Suggest modification of this statement to,

  =B3The work will include the characterization and marking of flows, Per
hop behavior=B2. If =B3Per hop behavior=B2 seems to be more inclined to
specifics, may be we state =B3packet forwarding behavior=B2 or something
similar. Is it not important to have WG define such behavior in its
charter?




(4) I understand that WG to work on proposing signaling mechanism and use
of it to establish a path. That seems perfectly fine for WG to produce.
  However, in overall solution, there still should be an option to enable
determinism through traditional style command line interface. Thus
hopefully WG charter does not focus on a solution that can not accommodate
such. I am thinking about smaller scale networks with few L3 hops
requiring determinism, where command line interface to provision flow
definition and deterministic parameters may be much more simpler and
convenient than heavy weight signaling (central or distributed) mechanism.

  This comment relates to one of the paragraphs from the WG description,

"A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explored,
such as Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), Central
controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), Connection to Operations
(Application) Controllers, and Mixed scenarios"



Regards,
Shitanshu




On 9/24/14, 9:36 AM, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
wrote:

>Hello Erik:
>
>Thanks for all this.
>
>In the last sentence of the background, we could show more clearly where
>we're going:
>
>"
>Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF needs also to define
>which protocol(s) will be applied or extended, and to produce tagging and
>signaling elements to be used to establish a path and identify the flows,
>and how they can be instantiated on relevant technologies such as PCE,
>MPLS and 6TiSCH. As a result of this work, it will be possible to
>establish an end-to-end path for a particular flow with precise timing
>and throughput requirements, and transport this flow over the IP network
>with such characteristics as precise timing, duplication and elimination
>over non-congruent paths, and/or zero congestion loss. Depending on the
>network capabilities and on the current state, requests may be granted or
>rejected, and the associated reservation may be moved or cancelled.
>"
>
>I would rather commit for a limited standard deliverable in this round
>and then recharter for the full blown commitment when we know better what
>we are after. But then, if you can propose alternate text/updates to the
>attached v3 draft, you are more than welcome!
>
>Cheers,
>
>Pascal
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Erik Nordmark [mailto:nordmark@acm.org]
>> Sent: mardi 23 septembre 2014 01:40
>> To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn
>>(nfinn); Alia
>> Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)
>> Cc: detnet@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
>>=20
>> Pascal,
>>=20
>> There is useful information in this charter. But when I look at the
>> deliverables it reads as if the WG will work for a few years and produce
>> various documents, but not much in terms of standards and associated
>> creation of interoperable implementations.
>>=20
>> A key question for me is how do we see the network operating
>>differently as
>> a result of DETNET; I assume some protocols need to be changed in some
>> ways. Understanding how we see it working differently is key in
>> understanding the architectural impact as well.
>> Thus I'd definitely would like some more concrete details and a clear
>>path
>> towards useful things being standardized and implemented.
>>=20
>> Norm's slides had more specifics. For example the need to be able to say
>> "no" i.e. some form of admission control. The proposed text talks about
>>that
>> in the form of a solutions taxonomy. But if we want to accomplish
>> something more than documents, I think the path needs to include the WG
>> choosing a protocol (or possibly choosing a separate protocol for a
>> distributed vs. a centralized approach); keep in mind that we get
>> interoperability by making decisions that lead to a small set of
>>mandatory to
>> implement protocols and options.
>>=20
>> The ADs might want to manage the charter in a step-wise way with some
>> initial set of documents before a WG can work on picking a solution.
>>But I
>> would strive to make that initial set of documents small with crisp
>>content.
>>=20
>> My 2 cents,
>>     Erik
>>=20
>> On 9/22/14 6:48 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear all:
>> >
>> > Please find below my latest and the txt version attached. I included
>> > (my understanding of) Anca's point (Thanks Anca!) as well as a
>> > multilayer/segment discussion as stirred by George. I stole and
>> > adapted text from various places, the original authors will recognize
>> > themselves : )
>> >
>> > Background on deterministic networking
>> >
>> > Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are
>> > typically used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as
>> > well as movement detection systems for use in Process Control (i.e.,
>> > process manufacturing) and Factory Automation (i.e., discrete
>> > manufacturing). Due to its different goals, OT has evolved totally in
>> > parallel and in a manner that is radically different from IT/ICT,
>> > focusing on highly secure, reliable and deterministic networks, with
>> > limited scalability over a bounded area.
>> >
>> > The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial
>> > Internet, will represent a major evolution for both sides. The work
>> > has already started; in particular, the Industrial Automation space
>> > has been developing a number of Ethernet-based "fieldbus"
>> > replacements, meant to provide "determinism", with the focus to
>> > transport a fully characterized flow over a very controlled
>> > environment (i.e., a "well regulated" factory floor), with a bounded
>> > latency, a low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter.
>> >
>> > In parallel, a high demand for a standard format drove the formation
>> > of the Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1,
>> > destined to the professional and home audio/video markets. While aimed
>> > at less critical applications, AVB networks share very similar
>> > characteristics. Other instances of deterministic networks have arisen
>> > as well, for instance in the context of vehicles and avionics, with
>> > the mission-critical "Avionics Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet" (AFDX)
>> > that was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standards. The work started
>> > at the IEEE802.1 to provide deterministic Ethernet A/V Bridging has
>> > now generalized and was renamed "Time Sensitive Networking" (TSN).
>> >
>> > The IETF and the IEEE need now to collaborate and define an abstract
>> > model that can be applicable at Layer-2 and Layer-3 along segments of
>> > different technologies, for instance across a (limited) number of
>> > 802.1 bridges and then a (limited) number of IP routers, such as
>> > 6TiSCH nodes which, by the way, operate on a different MAC/PHY. The
>> > model should enable fully scheduled operations by a central
>> > controller, with capabilities such as zero congestion loss and
>> > live-live parallel transmission for increased reliability, as well as
>> > a more distributed model similar to Intserv, though bounded in reach
>> > and possibilities.
>> >
>> > WG description
>> >
>> > The Working Group will focus on the signaling and forwarding models
>> > that are required to enable an end-to-end path with the Deterministic
>> > properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jitter,
>> > and High Reliability, over a moderate-sized mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3
>> > network composed of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts, within a
>> > single administrative domain such as a campus or a Small/Home office
>> > Network.
>> >
>> > The extent of the problem space for the WG includes the establishment
>> > and maintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 bridged and Layer-3
>> > routed segments, and though only Layer-3 operations will be specified
>> > in Standard Track documents, the group will maintain consistency and
>> > compatibility with the concurrent work that is happening at IEEE802.1
>> > TSN for the Layer-2 operations.
>> >
>> > The work will include the characterization and the marking of flows.
>> > It will apply to flows that can be well-characterized in a manner that
>> > allows to tightly reserve the appropriate network resources for the
>> > flows in advance, and release/reuse the resources when they are not
>> > required.
>> >
>> > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the
>> > Internet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and
>> > Management, Routing and Security areas.
>> >
>> > Work Items
>> >
>> > - Deliverables:
>> >
>> >   * an analysis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4
>> > drafts which would include process control, factory automation, planes
>> > and video studios)
>> >
>> >   * A general problem statement including an analysis of the proposed
>> > solutions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN, with a status of the
>> > work done and left to be achieved, and the directions that are being
>> > taken.
>> >
>> >   * A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be
>> > explored, such as Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or
>> > RSVP), Central controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), Connection
>> > to Operations (Application) Controllers, and Mixed scenarios.
>> >
>> >   * requirement drafts will be produced for other WGs as deemed
>> > necessary, with for instance a requirement draft for the definition of
>> > a PHsB at the transport area.
>> >
>> >   * a study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the
>> > definition of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation
>> > (per RFC 7346) where for instance the deterministic technology is
>> > consistent over a Link or a Realm Local Scope and achievable across
>> > technologies and layers over an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping
>> > will be studied for IPv4.
>> >
>> >   ->  all those documents planned for informational track
>> >
>> >   * a data model for flow characterization for use in flow
>> > reservation,
>> >
>> >   * a flow identification for use in packet forwarding, with
>> > declination on 6TiSCH and MPLS.
>> >
>> >   -> those would be standard track
>> >
>> > Milestones
>> >
>> > TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after chartering
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > Pascal
>> >
>


From nobody Thu Sep 25 04:45:38 2014
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From: Wilfried Steiner <dr.wilfried.steiner@gmail.com>
To: detnet@ietf.org
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Subject: [Detnet] Paper on synchronized communication in L2/L3 networks
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--001a11c1ba206bf17d0503e256fa
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All,

just realized that we had a short overview paper at the IEEE World Forum on
IoT earlier this year. It might have some value as an introduction to the
subject.

It talks about synchronized communication in a L2/L3 setting and mostly
presents research challenges and engineering tasks. It uses the term
"time-triggered communication" because this is a term used by academics,
but also references .1Qbv, AVB, PCE, IEEE 1588 etc.

It's available from our website (copyright is with the IEEE):

https://www.tttech.com/fileadmin/content/general/files/pdf/company/academic/publications/2014_Towards_Synchronous_Deterministic_Channels_for_the_Internet_of_Things.pdf

cheers,
w.


-- 
Wilfried Steiner
at.linkedin.com/in/wilfriedsteiner
Phone Austria: +436764330045
Find some of my papers at:
www.tttech.com/company/academic-publications/

--001a11c1ba206bf17d0503e256fa
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>All,</div><div><br></div><div>just realized that we h=
ad a short overview paper at the IEEE World Forum on IoT earlier this year.=
 It might have some value as an introduction to the subject.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>It talks about synchronized communication in a L2/L3 setting and=
 mostly presents research challenges and engineering tasks. It uses the ter=
m &quot;time-triggered communication&quot; because this is a term used by a=
cademics, but also references .1Qbv, AVB, PCE, IEEE 1588 etc.</div><div><br=
></div><div>It&#39;s available from our website (copyright is with the IEEE=
):</div><div><br></div><a href=3D"https://www.tttech.com/fileadmin/content/=
general/files/pdf/company/academic/publications/2014_Towards_Synchronous_De=
terministic_Channels_for_the_Internet_of_Things.pdf">https://www.tttech.com=
/fileadmin/content/general/files/pdf/company/academic/publications/2014_Tow=
ards_Synchronous_Deterministic_Channels_for_the_Internet_of_Things.pdf</a><=
br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div><div>cheers,</div><div>w.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Wilfried Steiner<br><a href=
=3D"http://at.linkedin.com/in/wilfriedsteiner" target=3D"_blank">at.linkedi=
n.com/in/wilfriedsteiner</a><br>Phone Austria: +436764330045<br></div>Find =
some of my papers at:<br><a href=3D"http://www.tttech.com/company/academic-=
publications/" target=3D"_blank">www.tttech.com/company/academic-publicatio=
ns/</a><br><br></div>
</div>

--001a11c1ba206bf17d0503e256fa--


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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Shitanshu Shah (svshah)" <svshah@cisco.com>, Erik Nordmark <nordmark@acm.org>, "Anca Zamfir (ancaz)" <ancaz@cisco.com>, "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>, "Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)" <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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References: <E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DD02A1@xmb-rcd-x01.cisco.com> <D0423592.BCF20%ancaz@cisco.com> <E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DD0490@xmb-rcd-x01.cisco.com> <E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DD37DC@xmb-rcd-x01.cisco.com> <5420B350.6040907@acm.org> <E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DDA02B@xmb-rcd-x01.cisco.com> <D048E8FC.13D59%svshah@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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Hello Shitanshu:

> Few comments/questions

[PT] Thanks for them!!! Please find below my proposed resolution:

>=20
> (1) last sentence of last paragraph in the Background section,
>   "as well as a more distributed model similar to Intserv=B2
>=20
>   Is there any reason/need to highlight =B3Intserv=B2? You have backgroun=
d
> covered well that highlights requirement of determinism. I am not clear w=
hat
> Intserv signifies here.
>=20

[PT] I got rid of that text

>=20
> (2) In the WG description
>=20
>   Use of term =B3consistency=B2 between L2 and L3 is too loose and practi=
cally
> difficult to decide where to draw a line. Like IP can support 64 code-poi=
nts,
> L2 supports only 8. Like flow specification may differ L3 vs L2. Trying t=
o
> achieve consistency in some of such places may mean limiting proposed
> solution for IP or even vice-versa.
>=20
>  I think compatibility and Inter-operability makes sense. IMO =B3consiste=
ncy=B2
> should not be mentioned here for those reasons.

[PT]  Here we want more consistency than what we could do with QoS. The dat=
a model, the signaling flows, and the packet tagging should be the same or =
unambiguously mappable. Do you still think the text is too strong?

>=20
>=20
> (3) In the WG description
>=20
>   "The work will include the characterization and the marking of flows.=
=B2
>=20
>   Suggest modification of this statement to,
>=20
>   =B3The work will include the characterization and marking of flows, Per=
 hop
> behavior=B2. If =B3Per hop behavior=B2 seems to be more inclined to speci=
fics, may
> be we state =B3packet forwarding behavior=B2 or something similar. Is it =
not
> important to have WG define such behavior in its charter?
>=20
>=20

[PT] It is. I had trouble parsing the above but changed the text to accommo=
date this and added a deliverable.

"=20
  * A data model for the state to be installed in the forwarding device and=
 the associated packet forwarding behavior.=20
 "

> (4) I understand that WG to work on proposing signaling mechanism and use
> of it to establish a path. That seems perfectly fine for WG to produce.
>   However, in overall solution, there still should be an option to enable
> determinism through traditional style command line interface. Thus
> hopefully WG charter does not focus on a solution that can not
> accommodate such. I am thinking about smaller scale networks with few L3
> hops requiring determinism, where command line interface to provision flo=
w
> definition and deterministic parameters may be much more simpler and
> convenient than heavy weight signaling (central or distributed) mechanism=
.
>=20
>   This comment relates to one of the paragraphs from the WG description,
>=20
> "A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explored=
,
> such as Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), Central
> controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), Connection to Operations
> (Application) Controllers, and Mixed scenarios"
>=20
>=20

[PT] added Manual Configuration

> Regards,
> Shitanshu
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 9/24/14, 9:36 AM, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
> wrote:
>=20
> >Hello Erik:
> >
> >Thanks for all this.
> >
> >In the last sentence of the background, we could show more clearly
> >where we're going:
> >
> >"
> >Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF needs also to define
> >which protocol(s) will be applied or extended, and to produce tagging
> >and signaling elements to be used to establish a path and identify the
> >flows, and how they can be instantiated on relevant technologies such
> >as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH. As a result of this work, it will be possible
> >to establish an end-to-end path for a particular flow with precise
> >timing and throughput requirements, and transport this flow over the IP
> >network with such characteristics as precise timing, duplication and
> >elimination over non-congruent paths, and/or zero congestion loss.
> >Depending on the network capabilities and on the current state,
> >requests may be granted or rejected, and the associated reservation may
> be moved or cancelled.
> >"
> >
> >I would rather commit for a limited standard deliverable in this round
> >and then recharter for the full blown commitment when we know better
> >what we are after. But then, if you can propose alternate text/updates
> >to the attached v3 draft, you are more than welcome!
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Pascal
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Erik Nordmark [mailto:nordmark@acm.org]
> >> Sent: mardi 23 septembre 2014 01:40
> >> To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Norman Finn
> >>(nfinn); Alia  Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)
> >> Cc: detnet@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
> >>
> >> Pascal,
> >>
> >> There is useful information in this charter. But when I look at the
> >> deliverables it reads as if the WG will work for a few years and
> >> produce various documents, but not much in terms of standards and
> >> associated creation of interoperable implementations.
> >>
> >> A key question for me is how do we see the network operating
> >>differently as  a result of DETNET; I assume some protocols need to be
> >>changed in some  ways. Understanding how we see it working differently
> >>is key in  understanding the architectural impact as well.
> >> Thus I'd definitely would like some more concrete details and a clear
> >>path  towards useful things being standardized and implemented.
> >>
> >> Norm's slides had more specifics. For example the need to be able to
> >>say  "no" i.e. some form of admission control. The proposed text talks
> >>about that  in the form of a solutions taxonomy. But if we want to
> >>accomplish  something more than documents, I think the path needs to
> >>include the WG  choosing a protocol (or possibly choosing a separate
> >>protocol for a  distributed vs. a centralized approach); keep in mind
> >>that we get  interoperability by making decisions that lead to a small
> >>set of mandatory to  implement protocols and options.
> >>
> >> The ADs might want to manage the charter in a step-wise way with some
> >>initial set of documents before a WG can work on picking a solution.
> >>But I
> >> would strive to make that initial set of documents small with crisp
> >>content.
> >>
> >> My 2 cents,
> >>     Erik
> >>
> >> On 9/22/14 6:48 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Dear all:
> >> >
> >> > Please find below my latest and the txt version attached. I
> >> > included (my understanding of) Anca's point (Thanks Anca!) as well
> >> > as a multilayer/segment discussion as stirred by George. I stole
> >> > and adapted text from various places, the original authors will
> >> > recognize themselves : )
> >> >
> >> > Background on deterministic networking
> >> >
> >> > Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are
> >> > typically used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops,
> >> > as well as movement detection systems for use in Process Control
> >> > (i.e., process manufacturing) and Factory Automation (i.e.,
> >> > discrete manufacturing). Due to its different goals, OT has evolved
> >> > totally in parallel and in a manner that is radically different
> >> > from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and deterministic
> >> > networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.
> >> >
> >> > The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the
> >> > Industrial Internet, will represent a major evolution for both
> >> > sides. The work has already started; in particular, the Industrial
> >> > Automation space has been developing a number of Ethernet-based
> "fieldbus"
> >> > replacements, meant to provide "determinism", with the focus to
> >> > transport a fully characterized flow over a very controlled
> >> > environment (i.e., a "well regulated" factory floor), with a
> >> > bounded latency, a low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter.
> >> >
> >> > In parallel, a high demand for a standard format drove the
> >> > formation of the Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standards effort of
> >> > IEEE 802.1, destined to the professional and home audio/video
> >> > markets. While aimed at less critical applications, AVB networks
> >> > share very similar characteristics. Other instances of
> >> > deterministic networks have arisen as well, for instance in the
> >> > context of vehicles and avionics, with the mission-critical
> >> > "Avionics Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet" (AFDX) that was designed
> >> > as part of the ARIC 664 standards. The work started at the
> >> > IEEE802.1 to provide deterministic Ethernet A/V Bridging has now
> generalized and was renamed "Time Sensitive Networking" (TSN).
> >> >
> >> > The IETF and the IEEE need now to collaborate and define an
> >> > abstract model that can be applicable at Layer-2 and Layer-3 along
> >> > segments of different technologies, for instance across a (limited)
> >> > number of
> >> > 802.1 bridges and then a (limited) number of IP routers, such as
> >> > 6TiSCH nodes which, by the way, operate on a different MAC/PHY. The
> >> > model should enable fully scheduled operations by a central
> >> > controller, with capabilities such as zero congestion loss and
> >> > live-live parallel transmission for increased reliability, as well
> >> > as a more distributed model similar to Intserv, though bounded in
> >> > reach and possibilities.
> >> >
> >> > WG description
> >> >
> >> > The Working Group will focus on the signaling and forwarding models
> >> > that are required to enable an end-to-end path with the
> >> > Deterministic properties of controlled latency, low packet loss,
> >> > ultra-low jitter, and High Reliability, over a moderate-sized mixed
> >> > Layer 2 / Layer 3 network composed of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers,
> >> > and hosts, within a single administrative domain such as a campus
> >> > or a Small/Home office Network.
> >> >
> >> > The extent of the problem space for the WG includes the
> >> > establishment and maintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2
> >> > bridged and Layer-3 routed segments, and though only Layer-3
> >> > operations will be specified in Standard Track documents, the group
> >> > will maintain consistency and compatibility with the concurrent
> >> > work that is happening at IEEE802.1 TSN for the Layer-2 operations.
> >> >
> >> > The work will include the characterization and the marking of flows.
> >> > It will apply to flows that can be well-characterized in a manner
> >> > that allows to tightly reserve the appropriate network resources
> >> > for the flows in advance, and release/reuse the resources when they
> >> > are not required.
> >> >
> >> > The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in
> >> > the Internet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and
> >> > Management, Routing and Security areas.
> >> >
> >> > Work Items
> >> >
> >> > - Deliverables:
> >> >
> >> >   * an analysis of the requirements in a number of environments
> >> > (3-4 drafts which would include process control, factory
> >> > automation, planes and video studios)
> >> >
> >> >   * A general problem statement including an analysis of the
> >> > proposed solutions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN, with a
> >> > status of the work done and left to be achieved, and the directions
> >> > that are being taken.
> >> >
> >> >   * A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be
> >> > explored, such as Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP
> >> > or RSVP), Central controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE),
> >> > Connection to Operations (Application) Controllers, and Mixed
> scenarios.
> >> >
> >> >   * requirement drafts will be produced for other WGs as deemed
> >> > necessary, with for instance a requirement draft for the definition
> >> > of a PHsB at the transport area.
> >> >
> >> >   * a study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include
> >> > the definition of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped
> >> > operation (per RFC 7346) where for instance the deterministic
> >> > technology is consistent over a Link or a Realm Local Scope and
> >> > achievable across technologies and layers over an Admin-Local
> >> > scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.
> >> >
> >> >   ->  all those documents planned for informational track
> >> >
> >> >   * a data model for flow characterization for use in flow
> >> > reservation,
> >> >
> >> >   * a flow identification for use in packet forwarding, with
> >> > declination on 6TiSCH and MPLS.
> >> >
> >> >   -> those would be standard track
> >> >
> >> > Milestones
> >> >
> >> > TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after chartering
> >> >
> >> > Cheers,
> >> >
> >> > Pascal
> >> >
> >


From nobody Thu Sep 25 07:40:54 2014
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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
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Thread-Topic: almost final charter proposal
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Here we are after I applied comments by Erik, Shitanshu and Norm:

Background on deterministic networking


Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typicall=
y used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as well as move=
ment detection systems for use in process control (i.e., process manufactur=
ing) and factory automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its diff=
erent goals, OT has evolved in parallel but in a manner that is radically d=
ifferent from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and deterministic=
 networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.

The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Inter=
net, represents a major evolution for both sides. The work has already star=
ted; in particular, the industrial automation space has been developing a n=
umber of Ethernet-based replacements for existing digital control systems, =
often not packet-based ("fieldbus" technologies). These replacements are me=
ant to provide similar behavior as the incumbent protocols, and their commo=
n focus is to transport a fully characterized flow over a well-controlled e=
nvironment (i.e., a factory floor), with a bounded latency, extraordinarily=
 low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter. Examples of such protocols inclu=
de PROFINET, ODVA Ethernet/IP, and EtherCAT.

In parallel, the need for determinism drove the formation of the Audio/Vide=
o Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the profession=
al and home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical applications =
than some industrial networks, AVB networks share the requirement for extre=
mely low packet loss rates and guaranteed finite latency and jitter. Other =
instances of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for instance in th=
e context of vehicles and avionics, such as the mission-critical "Avionics =
Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet" (AFDX), which was designed as part of the AR=
IC 664 standards.

The success of the 802.1 AVB standards in the professional studio environme=
nt and the needs of the industrial networking markets have led to the IEEE =
802.1 AVB Task Group becoming the Time-Sensitive Networking (TSN) Task Grou=
p (TG), with a much-expanded constituency from the industrial and vehicular=
 markets. Along with this expansion, the networks in consideration are beco=
ming larger and structured, and require deterministic forwarding beyond the=
 LAN boundaries. For instance, Industrial Automation segregates the network=
 along the broad lines of the Purdue Enterprise Reference Architecture (PER=
A), using different technologies at each level, and public infrastructures =
such as Electricity Automation require deterministic properties over the Wi=
de Area. The realization is now coming that the convergence of IT and OT ne=
tworks requires Layer-3, as well as Layer-2, capabilities.

In order to serve this extended requirement, the IETF and the IEEE must col=
laborate and define an abstract model that can be applicable both at Layer-=
2 and Layer-3, and along segments of different technologies. With this new =
work, a path may span, for instance, across a (limited) number of 802.1 bri=
dges and then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE80=
2.1 bridges may be operating at Layer-2 over Ethernet whereas the IP router=
s may be 6TiSCH nodes operating at Layer-2 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.=
15.4e MAC. The proposed model should enable a fully scheduled operation orc=
hestrated by a central controller, as well as a more distributed operation =
with probably lesser capabilities. In any fashion, the model should not com=
promise the ability of a network to keep carrying the sorts of traffic that=
 is already carried today.

Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the s=
ignaling elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elements t=
o be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. the =
IETF will also need to specify the necessary protocols, or protocol additio=
ns, based on relevant IETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH, to im=
plement the selected model. As a result of this work, it will be possible t=
o establish an multi-hop path over the IP network, for a particular flow wi=
th precise timing and throughput requirements, and carry this particular fl=
ow along the multi-hop path with such characteristics as low latency and ul=
tra-low jitter, duplication and elimination over non-congruent paths for a =
higher delivery ratio, and/or zero congestion loss. Depending on the networ=
k capabilities and on the current state, requests may be granted or rejecte=
d, and the associated reservation may be moved or cancelled.


WG description


The working Group will focus on the establishment and maintenance of multi-=
hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-3 routed segments. Though only Lay=
er-3 operations will be specified by the WG as Standard Track documents, th=
e group will collaborate with IEEE802.1 TSN, which designs the Layer-2 oper=
ations, to define a common paradigm, leveraging cross-participation and lia=
ison work to maintain consistency. In that common paradigm, a number of ele=
ments such as the host operation should be agnostic to the organization of =
the multi-hop path.

The considered network will initially be of a moderate size, composed of mi=
xed Layer 2 / Layer 3 sub-networks of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts=
. A single administrative domain such as a campus, a Small/Home office Netw=
ork, or a controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to start with, and a=
pproaches that can be applied to the Internet at large will be favored.
The Working Group will initially specify the protocol elements that are req=
uired to enable an multi-hop path, and forward along that path with the det=
erministic properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jit=
ter, and high reliability. The work will apply to and only to flows that ca=
n be characterized in a manner that allows the network to 1) reserve the ap=
propriate resources for the flows in advance, and 2) release/reuse the reso=
urces when they are no more required. The work will cover the characterizat=
ion of flows, the tagging of packets, the required forwarding behaviors, as=
 well as the state that may need to be established in intermediate nodes; i=
t will not include end-to-end consideration such as transport protocols.
The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Inte=
rnet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Rout=
ing and Security areas. As the work progresses, some of the items initially=
 considered at detnet may be transferred to those working groups as deemed =
appropriate by all parties.

The WG will conclude this round with the selection of a solution paradigm a=
nd suggest a base protocol that can be applied or extended.
Work Items

- Deliverables:
  * An analysis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 drafts=
 which could include factory automation, grid automation, vehicles/avionics=
 and audio/video studios).

  * A general problem statement including an analysis of the proposed solut=
ions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN, with a status of the work done an=
d left to be achieved, and the directions that are being taken.

  * A study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the defini=
tion of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (per RFC 7=
346) where for instance the deterministic technology is consistent over a L=
ink or a Realm Local Scope and achievable across technologies and layers ov=
er an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.

  * A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explore=
d, such as Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), Centra=
l controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), Connection to Operations (App=
lication) Controllers, Manual C  onfiguration, and Mixed scenarios, in rela=
tion to the IP generic scoping.

  ->  all those documents planned for informational track

  * A data model for flow characterization for use in flow reservation by t=
he protocol(s) selected by the WG from the solution taxonomy (e.g. an evolu=
tion of PCEP or RSVP).

  * A data model for the state to be installed in the forwarding device and=
 the associated packet forwarding behavior.

  * A flow identification for use in packet forwarding to identify a state,=
 with the specific application to at least classical IP, 6TiSCH track forwa=
rding, and MPLS.

  -> those would be standard track, and the work would progress any identif=
ied dependency is resolved. This work focusses on flows and does not depend=
 on the path setup protocol that will be selected. The data models and flow=
 tagging should be compatible with the similar work done at IEEE801.1TSN so=
 they could be either directly usable at both layers, or mappable in an una=
mbiguous fashion.



Milestones

TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after chartering

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm">Here we are after =
I applied comments by Erik, Shitanshu and Norm:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm">Background on dete=
rministic networking
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial net=
works that are typically used for monitoring systems and supporting control=
 loops, as well as movement detection systems for use in process control (i=
.e., process manufacturing) and factory
 automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its different goals, OT =
has evolved in parallel but in a manner that is radically different from IT=
/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and deterministic networks, with =
limited scalability over a bounded
 area.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also call=
ed the Industrial Internet, represents a major evolution for both sides. Th=
e work has already started; in particular, the industrial automation space =
has been developing a number of Ethernet-based
 replacements for existing digital control systems, often not packet-based =
(&#8220;fieldbus&#8221; technologies). These replacements are meant to prov=
ide similar behavior as the incumbent protocols, and their common focus is =
to transport a fully characterized flow over
 a well-controlled environment (i.e., a factory floor), with a bounded late=
ncy, extraordinarily low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter. Examples of =
such protocols include PROFINET, ODVA Ethernet/IP, and EtherCAT.<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In parallel, the need for determinism drove the form=
ation of the Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, des=
tined to the professional and home audio/video markets. While aimed at less=
 critical applications than some industrial
 networks, AVB networks share the requirement for extremely low packet loss=
 rates and guaranteed finite latency and jitter. Other instances of determi=
nistic networks have arisen as well, for instance in the context of vehicle=
s and avionics, such as the mission-critical
 &#8220;Avionics Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet&#8221; (AFDX), which was des=
igned as part of the ARIC 664 standards.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The success of the 802.1 AVB standards in the profes=
sional studio environment and the needs of the industrial networking market=
s have led to the IEEE 802.1 AVB Task Group becoming the Time-Sensitive Net=
working (TSN) Task Group (TG), with
 a much-expanded constituency from the industrial and vehicular markets. Al=
ong with this expansion, the networks in consideration are becoming larger =
and structured, and require deterministic forwarding beyond the LAN boundar=
ies. For instance, Industrial Automation
 segregates the network along the broad lines of the Purdue Enterprise Refe=
rence Architecture (PERA), using different technologies at each level, and =
public infrastructures such as Electricity Automation require deterministic=
 properties over the Wide Area.
 The realization is now coming that the convergence of IT and OT networks r=
equires Layer-3, as well as Layer-2, capabilities.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In order to serve this extended requirement, the IET=
F and the IEEE must collaborate and define an abstract model that can be ap=
plicable both at Layer-2 and Layer-3, and along segments of different techn=
ologies. With this new work, a path
 may span, for instance, across a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges and the=
n a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE802.1 bridges =
may be operating at Layer-2 over Ethernet whereas the IP routers may be 6Ti=
SCH nodes operating at Layer-2 and/or
 Layer-3 over the IEEE802.15.4e MAC. The proposed model should enable a ful=
ly scheduled operation orchestrated by a central controller, as well as a m=
ore distributed operation with probably lesser capabilities. In any fashion=
, the model should not compromise
 the ability of a network to keep carrying the sorts of traffic that is alr=
eady carried today.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF wil=
l need to specify the signaling elements to be used to establish a path and=
 the tagging elements to be used identify the flows that are to be forwarde=
d along that path. the IETF will also
 need to specify the necessary protocols, or protocol additions, based on r=
elevant IETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH, to implement the se=
lected model. As a result of this work, it will be possible to establish an=
 multi-hop path over the IP network,
 for a particular flow with precise timing and throughput requirements, and=
 carry this particular flow along the multi-hop path with such characterist=
ics as low latency and ultra-low jitter, duplication and elimination over n=
on-congruent paths for a higher
 delivery ratio, and/or zero congestion loss. Depending on the network capa=
bilities and on the current state, requests may be granted or rejected, and=
 the associated reservation may be moved or cancelled.&nbsp;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm">WG description<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The working Group will focus on the establishment an=
d maintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-3 routed se=
gments. Though only Layer-3 operations will be specified by the WG as Stand=
ard Track documents, the group will
 collaborate with IEEE802.1 TSN, which designs the Layer-2 operations, to d=
efine a common paradigm, leveraging cross-participation and liaison work to=
 maintain consistency. In that common paradigm, a number of elements such a=
s the host operation should be agnostic
 to the organization of the multi-hop path.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The considered network will initially be of a modera=
te size, composed of mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 sub-networks of IEEE802.1 brid=
ges, routers, and hosts. A single administrative domain such as a campus, a=
 Small/Home office Network, or a controlled
 Wide Area Network will be assumed to start with, and approaches that can b=
e applied to the Internet at large will be favored.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The Working Group will initially specify the protoco=
l elements that are required to enable an multi-hop path, and forward along=
 that path with the deterministic properties of controlled latency, low pac=
ket loss, ultra-low jitter, and high
 reliability. The work will apply to and only to flows that can be characte=
rized in a manner that allows the network to 1) reserve the appropriate res=
ources for the flows in advance, and 2) release/reuse the resources when th=
ey are no more required. The work
 will cover the characterization of flows, the tagging of packets, the requ=
ired forwarding behaviors, as well as the state that may need to be establi=
shed in intermediate nodes; it will not include end-to-end consideration su=
ch as transport protocols.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The WG will interface with other appropriate groups =
in the IETF in the Internet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operatio=
ns and Management, Routing and Security areas. As the work progresses, some=
 of the items initially considered
 at detnet may be transferred to those working groups as deemed appropriate=
 by all parties.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The WG will conclude this round with the selection o=
f a solution paradigm and suggest a base protocol that can be applied or ex=
tended.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm">Work Items&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Deliverables:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;* An analysis of the requirements in a n=
umber of environments (3-4 drafts which could include factory automation, g=
rid automation, vehicles/avionics and audio/video studios).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A general problem statement including =
an analysis of the proposed solutions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN, =
with a status of the work done and left to be achieved, and the directions =
that are being taken.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A study of generic scoping. For IPv6, =
the study will include the definition of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-=
Local scoped operation (per RFC 7346) where for instance the deterministic =
technology is consistent over a Link or a Realm
 Local Scope and achievable across technologies and layers over an Admin-Lo=
cal scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A solution taxonomy, where potential s=
olution paradigms will be explored, such as Peer-to-peer protocols (along t=
he lines of MSRP or RSVP), Central controller (along the lines of SDN or PC=
E), Connection to Operations (Application) Controllers,
 Manual C &nbsp;onfiguration, and Mixed scenarios, in relation to the IP ge=
neric scoping.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;-&gt;&nbsp; all those documents planned =
for informational track <o:p>
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A data model for flow characterization=
 for use in flow reservation by the protocol(s) selected by the WG from the=
 solution taxonomy (e.g. an evolution of PCEP or RSVP).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; * A data model for the state to be installed =
in the forwarding device and the associated packet forwarding behavior.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A flow identification for use in packe=
t forwarding to identify a state, with the specific application to at least=
 classical IP, 6TiSCH track forwarding, and MPLS.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;-&gt; those would be standard track, and=
 the work would progress any identified dependency is resolved. This work f=
ocusses on flows and does not depend on the path setup protocol that will b=
e selected. The data models and flow tagging should
 be compatible with the similar work done at IEEE801.1TSN so they could be =
either directly usable at both layers, or mappable in an unambiguous fashio=
n.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm">Milestones<o:p></o=
:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after char=
tering<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DDDBE9xmbrcdx01ciscoc_--


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From: "Vengada Prasad Govindan (venggovi)" <venggovi@cisco.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: almost final charter proposal
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Hello Pascal,
   The charter proposal you have outlined below looks very nice, please con=
sider the following items in that context:
a. The influence of DETNET on OAM tools, in other words, an evaluation of t=
he changes (if any) needed to the OAM toolkit to support deterministic flow=
s.
     i. How would the forwarding model of deterministic flows influence the=
 methods of fault monitoring/ isolation?
     ii. What is the influence of deterministic flows from the perspective =
of performance monitoring?
The above does not imply that the current tools are incapable of supporting=
 these flows.
b. Do we need to explore interactions/ inter-working required (if any) betw=
een the  OAM operating at layer-2 and layer-3?
My suggestions are early thoughts and not conclusions, I look forward to fe=
edback on the above points.
=20
Thanks
Prasad=20

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (=
pthubert)
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 8:11 PM
To: detnet@ietf.org
Subject: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal

Here we are after I applied comments by Erik, Shitanshu and Norm:

Background on deterministic networking=20


Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typicall=
y used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as well as move=
ment detection systems for use in process control (i.e., process manufactur=
ing) and factory automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its diff=
erent goals, OT has evolved in parallel but in a manner that is radically d=
ifferent from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and deterministic=
 networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.

The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Inter=
net, represents a major evolution for both sides. The work has already star=
ted; in particular, the industrial automation space has been developing a n=
umber of Ethernet-based replacements for existing digital control systems, =
often not packet-based ("fieldbus" technologies). These replacements are me=
ant to provide similar behavior as the incumbent protocols, and their commo=
n focus is to transport a fully characterized flow over a well-controlled e=
nvironment (i.e., a factory floor), with a bounded latency, extraordinarily=
 low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter. Examples of such protocols inclu=
de PROFINET, ODVA Ethernet/IP, and EtherCAT.

In parallel, the need for determinism drove the formation of the Audio/Vide=
o Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the profession=
al and home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical applications =
than some industrial networks, AVB networks share the requirement for extre=
mely low packet loss rates and guaranteed finite latency and jitter. Other =
instances of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for instance in th=
e context of vehicles and avionics, such as the mission-critical "Avionics =
Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet" (AFDX), which was designed as part of the AR=
IC 664 standards.=20

The success of the 802.1 AVB standards in the professional studio environme=
nt and the needs of the industrial networking markets have led to the IEEE =
802.1 AVB Task Group becoming the Time-Sensitive Networking (TSN) Task Grou=
p (TG), with a much-expanded constituency from the industrial and vehicular=
 markets. Along with this expansion, the networks in consideration are beco=
ming larger and structured, and require deterministic forwarding beyond the=
 LAN boundaries. For instance, Industrial Automation segregates the network=
 along the broad lines of the Purdue Enterprise Reference Architecture (PER=
A), using different technologies at each level, and public infrastructures =
such as Electricity Automation require deterministic properties over the Wi=
de Area. The realization is now coming that the convergence of IT and OT ne=
tworks requires Layer-3, as well as Layer-2, capabilities.=20

In order to serve this extended requirement, the IETF and the IEEE must col=
laborate and define an abstract model that can be applicable both at Layer-=
2 and Layer-3, and along segments of different technologies. With this new =
work, a path may span, for instance, across a (limited) number of 802.1 bri=
dges and then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE80=
2.1 bridges may be operating at Layer-2 over Ethernet whereas the IP router=
s may be 6TiSCH nodes operating at Layer-2 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.=
15.4e MAC. The proposed model should enable a fully scheduled operation orc=
hestrated by a central controller, as well as a more distributed operation =
with probably lesser capabilities. In any fashion, the model should not com=
promise the ability of a network to keep carrying the sorts of traffic that=
 is already carried today.=20
=A0
Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the s=
ignaling elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elements t=
o be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. the =
IETF will also need to specify the necessary protocols, or protocol additio=
ns, based on relevant IETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH, to im=
plement the selected model. As a result of this work, it will be possible t=
o establish an multi-hop path over the IP network, for a particular flow wi=
th precise timing and throughput requirements, and carry this particular fl=
ow along the multi-hop path with such characteristics as low latency and ul=
tra-low jitter, duplication and elimination over non-congruent paths for a =
higher delivery ratio, and/or zero congestion loss. Depending on the networ=
k capabilities and on the current state, requests may be granted or rejecte=
d, and the associated reservation may be moved or cancelled.=A0=A0=20


WG description


The working Group will focus on the establishment and maintenance of multi-=
hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-3 routed segments. Though only Lay=
er-3 operations will be specified by the WG as Standard Track documents, th=
e group will collaborate with IEEE802.1 TSN, which designs the Layer-2 oper=
ations, to define a common paradigm, leveraging cross-participation and lia=
ison work to maintain consistency. In that common paradigm, a number of ele=
ments such as the host operation should be agnostic to the organization of =
the multi-hop path.

The considered network will initially be of a moderate size, composed of mi=
xed Layer 2 / Layer 3 sub-networks of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts=
. A single administrative domain such as a campus, a Small/Home office Netw=
ork, or a controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to start with, and a=
pproaches that can be applied to the Internet at large will be favored.

The Working Group will initially specify the protocol elements that are req=
uired to enable an multi-hop path, and forward along that path with the det=
erministic properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jit=
ter, and high reliability. The work will apply to and only to flows that ca=
n be characterized in a manner that allows the network to 1) reserve the ap=
propriate resources for the flows in advance, and 2) release/reuse the reso=
urces when they are no more required. The work will cover the characterizat=
ion of flows, the tagging of packets, the required forwarding behaviors, as=
 well as the state that may need to be established in intermediate nodes; i=
t will not include end-to-end consideration such as transport protocols.

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Inte=
rnet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Rout=
ing and Security areas. As the work progresses, some of the items initially=
 considered at detnet may be transferred to those working groups as deemed =
appropriate by all parties.

The WG will conclude this round with the selection of a solution paradigm a=
nd suggest a base protocol that can be applied or extended.

Work Items=A0=A0=A0=A0=20


- Deliverables:

=A0=A0* An analysis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 dr=
afts which could include factory automation, grid automation, vehicles/avio=
nics and audio/video studios).
=A0=20
=A0=A0* A general problem statement including an analysis of the proposed s=
olutions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN, with a status of the work don=
e and left to be achieved, and the directions that are being taken.
=A0=20
=A0=A0* A study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the de=
finition of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (per R=
FC 7346) where for instance the deterministic technology is consistent over=
 a Link or a Realm Local Scope and achievable across technologies and layer=
s over an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.
=A0=20
=A0=A0* A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be exp=
lored, such as Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), Ce=
ntral controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), Connection to Operations =
(Application) Controllers, Manual C =A0onfiguration, and Mixed scenarios, i=
n relation to the IP generic scoping.
=A0=A0=A0=20
=A0=A0->=A0 all those documents planned for informational track=20
=A0
=A0=A0* A data model for flow characterization for use in flow reservation =
by the protocol(s) selected by the WG from the solution taxonomy (e.g. an e=
volution of PCEP or RSVP).=20

=A0 * A data model for the state to be installed in the forwarding device a=
nd the associated packet forwarding behavior.=20
=A0=A0
=A0=A0* A flow identification for use in packet forwarding to identify a st=
ate, with the specific application to at least classical IP, 6TiSCH track f=
orwarding, and MPLS.=20
=A0
=A0=A0-> those would be standard track, and the work would progress any ide=
ntified dependency is resolved. This work focusses on flows and does not de=
pend on the path setup protocol that will be selected. The data models and =
flow tagging should be compatible with the similar work done at IEEE801.1TS=
N so they could be either directly usable at both layers, or mappable in an=
 unambiguous fashion.
=A0=20
=A0=A0
=A0
Milestones


TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after chartering


From nobody Thu Sep 25 08:16:39 2014
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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Vengada Prasad Govindan (venggovi)" <venggovi@cisco.com>, "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: almost final charter proposal
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal
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Hi Prasad:

I fully agree that this is highly related, and fully in line with the stand=
ard track work item of flow characterization.

a) seems to relate to work items. How would you see that, a separate work i=
tem, like a draft with an evaluation? Or a requirement draft to other WGs?
b) seems to relate to the IEEE/IETF collaboration, which will be at the par=
adigm level to start with? What should we be doing there, add OAM to the to=
pics to be considered?

Thanks for all this,

Pascal


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vengada Prasad Govindan (venggovi)
> Sent: jeudi 25 septembre 2014 17:00
> To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert); detnet@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: almost final charter proposal
>=20
> Hello Pascal,
>    The charter proposal you have outlined below looks very nice, please
> consider the following items in that context:
> a. The influence of DETNET on OAM tools, in other words, an evaluation of
> the changes (if any) needed to the OAM toolkit to support deterministic
> flows.
>      i. How would the forwarding model of deterministic flows influence t=
he
> methods of fault monitoring/ isolation?
>      ii. What is the influence of deterministic flows from the perspectiv=
e of
> performance monitoring?
> The above does not imply that the current tools are incapable of supporti=
ng
> these flows.
> b. Do we need to explore interactions/ inter-working required (if any)
> between the  OAM operating at layer-2 and layer-3?
> My suggestions are early thoughts and not conclusions, I look forward to
> feedback on the above points.
>=20
> Thanks
> Prasad
>=20
> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert
> (pthubert)
> Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 8:11 PM
> To: detnet@ietf.org
> Subject: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal
>=20
> Here we are after I applied comments by Erik, Shitanshu and Norm:
>=20
> Background on deterministic networking
>=20
>=20
> Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typica=
lly
> used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as well as
> movement detection systems for use in process control (i.e., process
> manufacturing) and factory automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due=
 to
> its different goals, OT has evolved in parallel but in a manner that is r=
adically
> different from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and determinis=
tic
> networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.
>=20
> The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial
> Internet, represents a major evolution for both sides. The work has alrea=
dy
> started; in particular, the industrial automation space has been developi=
ng a
> number of Ethernet-based replacements for existing digital control system=
s,
> often not packet-based ("fieldbus" technologies). These replacements are
> meant to provide similar behavior as the incumbent protocols, and their
> common focus is to transport a fully characterized flow over a well-
> controlled environment (i.e., a factory floor), with a bounded latency,
> extraordinarily low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter. Examples of suc=
h
> protocols include PROFINET, ODVA Ethernet/IP, and EtherCAT.
>=20
> In parallel, the need for determinism drove the formation of the
> Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to th=
e
> professional and home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical
> applications than some industrial networks, AVB networks share the
> requirement for extremely low packet loss rates and guaranteed finite
> latency and jitter. Other instances of deterministic networks have arisen=
 as
> well, for instance in the context of vehicles and avionics, such as the m=
ission-
> critical "Avionics Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet" (AFDX), which was desig=
ned
> as part of the ARIC 664 standards.
>=20
> The success of the 802.1 AVB standards in the professional studio
> environment and the needs of the industrial networking markets have led t=
o
> the IEEE 802.1 AVB Task Group becoming the Time-Sensitive Networking
> (TSN) Task Group (TG), with a much-expanded constituency from the
> industrial and vehicular markets. Along with this expansion, the networks=
 in
> consideration are becoming larger and structured, and require determinist=
ic
> forwarding beyond the LAN boundaries. For instance, Industrial Automation
> segregates the network along the broad lines of the Purdue Enterprise
> Reference Architecture (PERA), using different technologies at each level=
, and
> public infrastructures such as Electricity Automation require determinist=
ic
> properties over the Wide Area. The realization is now coming that the
> convergence of IT and OT networks requires Layer-3, as well as Layer-2,
> capabilities.
>=20
> In order to serve this extended requirement, the IETF and the IEEE must
> collaborate and define an abstract model that can be applicable both at
> Layer-2 and Layer-3, and along segments of different technologies. With t=
his
> new work, a path may span, for instance, across a (limited) number of 802=
.1
> bridges and then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example, the
> IEEE802.1 bridges may be operating at Layer-2 over Ethernet whereas the I=
P
> routers may be 6TiSCH nodes operating at Layer-2 and/or Layer-3 over the
> IEEE802.15.4e MAC. The proposed model should enable a fully scheduled
> operation orchestrated by a central controller, as well as a more distrib=
uted
> operation with probably lesser capabilities. In any fashion, the model sh=
ould
> not compromise the ability of a network to keep carrying the sorts of tra=
ffic
> that is already carried today.
>=20
> Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the
> signaling elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging element=
s
> to be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. t=
he
> IETF will also need to specify the necessary protocols, or protocol addit=
ions,
> based on relevant IETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH, to
> implement the selected model. As a result of this work, it will be possib=
le to
> establish an multi-hop path over the IP network, for a particular flow wi=
th
> precise timing and throughput requirements, and carry this particular flo=
w
> along the multi-hop path with such characteristics as low latency and ult=
ra-
> low jitter, duplication and elimination over non-congruent paths for a hi=
gher
> delivery ratio, and/or zero congestion loss. Depending on the network
> capabilities and on the current state, requests may be granted or rejecte=
d,
> and the associated reservation may be moved or cancelled.
>=20
>=20
> WG description
>=20
>=20
> The working Group will focus on the establishment and maintenance of
> multi-hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-3 routed segments. Though
> only Layer-3 operations will be specified by the WG as Standard Track
> documents, the group will collaborate with IEEE802.1 TSN, which designs t=
he
> Layer-2 operations, to define a common paradigm, leveraging cross-
> participation and liaison work to maintain consistency. In that common
> paradigm, a number of elements such as the host operation should be
> agnostic to the organization of the multi-hop path.
>=20
> The considered network will initially be of a moderate size, composed of
> mixed Layer 2 / Layer 3 sub-networks of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and
> hosts. A single administrative domain such as a campus, a Small/Home offi=
ce
> Network, or a controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to start with,
> and approaches that can be applied to the Internet at large will be favor=
ed.
>=20
> The Working Group will initially specify the protocol elements that are
> required to enable an multi-hop path, and forward along that path with th=
e
> deterministic properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-lo=
w
> jitter, and high reliability. The work will apply to and only to flows th=
at can
> be characterized in a manner that allows the network to 1) reserve the
> appropriate resources for the flows in advance, and 2) release/reuse the
> resources when they are no more required. The work will cover the
> characterization of flows, the tagging of packets, the required forwardin=
g
> behaviors, as well as the state that may need to be established in
> intermediate nodes; it will not include end-to-end consideration such as
> transport protocols.
>=20
> The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the
> Internet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management=
,
> Routing and Security areas. As the work progresses, some of the items
> initially considered at detnet may be transferred to those working groups=
 as
> deemed appropriate by all parties.
>=20
> The WG will conclude this round with the selection of a solution paradigm
> and suggest a base protocol that can be applied or extended.
>=20
> Work Items
>=20
>=20
> - Deliverables:
>=20
> =A0=A0* An analysis of the requirements in a number of environments (3-4 =
drafts
> which could include factory automation, grid automation, vehicles/avionic=
s
> and audio/video studios).
>=20
> =A0=A0* A general problem statement including an analysis of the proposed
> solutions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN, with a status of the work
> done and left to be achieved, and the directions that are being taken.
>=20
> =A0=A0* A study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the =
definition
> of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (per RFC 7346=
)
> where for instance the deterministic technology is consistent over a Link=
 or a
> Realm Local Scope and achievable across technologies and layers over an
> Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.
>=20
> =A0=A0* A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be
> explored, such as Peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP=
),
> Central controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), Connection to Operati=
ons
> (Application) Controllers, Manual C =A0onfiguration, and Mixed scenarios,=
 in
> relation to the IP generic scoping.
>=20
> =A0=A0->=A0 all those documents planned for informational track
>=20
> =A0=A0* A data model for flow characterization for use in flow reservatio=
n by the
> protocol(s) selected by the WG from the solution taxonomy (e.g. an
> evolution of PCEP or RSVP).
>=20
> =A0 * A data model for the state to be installed in the forwarding device=
 and
> the associated packet forwarding behavior.
>=20
> =A0=A0* A flow identification for use in packet forwarding to identify a =
state, with
> the specific application to at least classical IP, 6TiSCH track forwardin=
g, and
> MPLS.
>=20
> =A0=A0-> those would be standard track, and the work would progress any
> identified dependency is resolved. This work focusses on flows and does n=
ot
> depend on the path setup protocol that will be selected. The data models
> and flow tagging should be compatible with the similar work done at
> IEEE801.1TSN so they could be either directly usable at both layers, or
> mappable in an unambiguous fashion.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Milestones
>=20
>=20
> TBD, probably all drafts to IESG one year after chartering


From nobody Thu Sep 25 08:42:19 2014
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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Compilation of documents available to the IESG for BoF evaluation
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Dear all:

Please let me know if I missed important references (and thanks Craig!)

IEEE 802.1 AVB/TSN references



*        Forwarding and Queuing (IEEE 802.1Qav-2009): http://standards.ieee=
.org/getieee802/download/802.1Qav-2009.pdf

*        Stream Reservation Protocol (IEEE 802.1Qat-2010): http://standards=
.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.1Qat-2010.pdf

*        Timing and Synchronizations (IEEE 802.1AS-2011): http://standards.=
ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.1AS-2011.pdf

*        AVB Systems (IEEE 802.1BA-2011): http://standards.ieee.org/getieee=
802/download/802.1BA-2011.pdf

Note that 802.1Qav-2009 and 802.1Qat-2010 have been rolled into the publica=
tion of IEEE 802.1Q-2011.
MAC Bridges and VLANs (IEEE 802.1Q-2011): http://standards.ieee.org/getieee=
802/download/802.1Q-2011.pdf

See also the section on TSN ongoing work in: http://www.ieee802.org/1/


IETF references


*        Deterministic flow tagging  https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-svsh=
ah-tsvwg-deterministic-forwarding

*        Deterministic track establishment and forwarding https://tools.iet=
f.org/html/draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture

*        Industrial applicability of RPL https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
phinney-roll-rpl-industrial-applicability

*        Industrial requirements for RPL https://tools.ietf.org/html/RFC567=
3

ISA100.11a-2011 / IEC 62734 links

A copy of the standard appears to be posted here: http://www.2shared.com/do=
cument/FtlhGiHh/ISA-100-11a-2011.html but I cannot say if it is original an=
d legal to get it.
More information in http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3DRZ1BBAAAQBAJ&pg=3D=
SA32-PA3&lpg=3DSA32-PA3&dq=3DISA100.11a-2011&source=3Dbl&ots=3D_sOsbwH5fi&s=
ig=3DFCOrHarKEtVibdS8oeH37vh7JXo&hl=3Dfr&sa=3DX&ei=3DADYkVJ7MM4rKaKT7gsgJ&v=
ed=3D0CDkQ6AEwAzgK#v=3Donepage&q=3DISA100.11a-2011&f=3Dfalse
More at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISA100.11a and http://www.isa100wci.or=
g/en-US/Documents/PDF/3405-ISA100-WirelessSystems-Future-broch-WEB-ETSI.asp=
x

Other resources

https://www.tttech.com/fileadmin/content/general/files/pdf/company/academic=
/publications/2014_Towards_Synchronous_Deterministic_Channels_for_the_Inter=
net_of_Things.pdf


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear all:<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Please let me know if I m=
issed important references (and thanks Craig!)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:=
#1F497D">IEEE 802.1 AVB/TSN references<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:S=
ymbol;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D=
"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Forwarding and Qu=
euing (IEEE 802.1Qav-2009):
<a href=3D"http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.1Qav-2009.pdf"=
>http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.1Qav-2009.pdf</a><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:S=
ymbol;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D=
"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Stream Reservatio=
n Protocol (IEEE 802.1Qat-2010):
<a href=3D"http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.1Qat-2010.pdf"=
>http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.1Qat-2010.pdf</a><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:S=
ymbol;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D=
"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Timing and Synchr=
onizations (IEEE 802.1AS-2011):
<a href=3D"http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.1AS-2011.pdf">=
http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.1AS-2011.pdf</a><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:S=
ymbol;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D=
"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">AVB Systems (IEEE=
 802.1BA-2011):
<a href=3D"http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.1BA-2011.pdf">=
http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.1BA-2011.pdf</a><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Note that 802.1Qav-2009 a=
nd 802.1Qat-2010 have been rolled into the publication of IEEE 802.1Q-2011.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">MAC Bridges and VLANs (IE=
EE 802.1Q-2011):
<a href=3D"http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.1Q-2011.pdf">h=
ttp://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.1Q-2011.pdf</a><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">See also the section on T=
SN ongoing work in:
<a href=3D"http://www.ieee802.org/1/">http://www.ieee802.org/1/</a> <o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:=
#1F497D">IETF references
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:S=
ymbol;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D=
"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Deterministic flo=
w tagging &nbsp;<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-svshah-tsvwg-d=
eterministic-forwarding">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-svshah-tsvwg-det=
erministic-forwarding</a>
 &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:S=
ymbol;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D=
"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Deterministic tra=
ck establishment and forwarding
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture">http=
s://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture</a> &nbsp;<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:S=
ymbol;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D=
"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Industrial applic=
ability of RPL
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr=
aft-phinney-roll-rpl-industrial-applicability">https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-phinney-roll-rpl-industrial-applicability</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:S=
ymbol;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D=
"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Industrial requir=
ements for RPL
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/RF=
C5673">https://tools.ietf.org/html/RFC5673</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:=
#1F497D">ISA100.11a-2011 / IEC 62734 links<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A copy of the standard ap=
pears to be posted here:
<a href=3D"http://www.2shared.com/document/FtlhGiHh/ISA-100-11a-2011.html">=
http://www.2shared.com/document/FtlhGiHh/ISA-100-11a-2011.html</a> but I ca=
nnot say if it is original and legal to get it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">More information in
<a href=3D"http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3DRZ1BBAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=3DSA32-=
PA3&amp;lpg=3DSA32-PA3&amp;dq=3DISA100.11a-2011&amp;source=3Dbl&amp;ots=3D_=
sOsbwH5fi&amp;sig=3DFCOrHarKEtVibdS8oeH37vh7JXo&amp;hl=3Dfr&amp;sa=3DX&amp;=
ei=3DADYkVJ7MM4rKaKT7gsgJ&amp;ved=3D0CDkQ6AEwAzgK#v=3Donepage&amp;q=3DISA10=
0.11a-2011&amp;f=3Dfalse">
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3DRZ1BBAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=3DSA32-PA3&amp;lpg=
=3DSA32-PA3&amp;dq=3DISA100.11a-2011&amp;source=3Dbl&amp;ots=3D_sOsbwH5fi&a=
mp;sig=3DFCOrHarKEtVibdS8oeH37vh7JXo&amp;hl=3Dfr&amp;sa=3DX&amp;ei=3DADYkVJ=
7MM4rKaKT7gsgJ&amp;ved=3D0CDkQ6AEwAzgK#v=3Donepage&amp;q=3DISA100.11a-2011&=
amp;f=3Dfalse</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">More at
<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISA100.11a">http://en.wikipedia.org=
/wiki/ISA100.11a</a> and
<a href=3D"http://www.isa100wci.org/en-US/Documents/PDF/3405-ISA100-Wireles=
sSystems-Future-broch-WEB-ETSI.aspx">
http://www.isa100wci.org/en-US/Documents/PDF/3405-ISA100-WirelessSystems-Fu=
ture-broch-WEB-ETSI.aspx</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:=
#1F497D">Other resources<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://www.tttech.com/fileadmin/content/=
general/files/pdf/company/academic/publications/2014_Towards_Synchronous_De=
terministic_Channels_for_the_Internet_of_Things.pdf">https://www.tttech.com=
/fileadmin/content/general/files/pdf/company/academic/publications/2014_Tow=
ards_Synchronous_Deterministic_Channels_for_the_Internet_of_Things.pdf</a><=
br clear=3D"all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DDDE8Bxmbrcdx01ciscoc_--


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From: "Shitanshu Shah (svshah)" <svshah@cisco.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, Erik Nordmark <nordmark@acm.org>, "Anca Zamfir (ancaz)" <ancaz@cisco.com>, "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>, "Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)" <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
Thread-Index: Ac/TIE0leFbkxe14RJ6u6JZu2uxB1wBRszYAAA6DFtD//5tngIAAdJBQgAQq0Yv//WlkIIAF+wEA//+NbkCAAUTwAA==
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 18:01:13 +0000
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References: <E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DD02A1@xmb-rcd-x01.cisco.com> <D0423592.BCF20%ancaz@cisco.com> <E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DD0490@xmb-rcd-x01.cisco.com> <E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DD37DC@xmb-rcd-x01.cisco.com> <5420B350.6040907@acm.org> <E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DDA02B@xmb-rcd-x01.cisco.com> <D048E8FC.13D59%svshah@cisco.com> <E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DDC9E0@xmb-rcd-x01.cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft charter skeleton - with some meat on it
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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Compilation of documents available to the IESG for BoF	evaluation
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From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
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Subject: [Detnet] Problem statement
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From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
To: "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Problem statement
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] Problem statement
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Cc: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Problem statement
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Given the activity and interest, I support having a detnet activity in
Honolulu.
Whether there is enough for a BoF is up to the ADs to approve.
If a BoF is not approved, you could have a side meeting to prepare a BoF in
Dallas.

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Norman Finn (nfinn) <nfinn@cisco.com>
wrote:

> OK.  I read this email after I sent it.  I guess the north shore of Kauai
> induces a bit of overoptimism.  :)  Ain=E2=80=99t no way we=E2=80=99ll ha=
ve a Problem
> Statement by tomorrow!  I am absolutely confident that we can get a good
> document out by the draft deadline (October 27).
>
> I=E2=80=99ll be offline for the next 12 hours, at least.  So,
>
> THE QUESTION:  DO WE GO FOR A BOF IN HONOLULU?
>
> This is the BOF request form with a few suggestions:
>
>
> * BOF's full name and acronym in brackets
>         Deterministic Networking (DetNet)
>
> * AREA under which Working Group or BOF appears
>
> * Chair(s) Name(s) and e-mail address(es)
>
> * Agenda
>         Should include discussion on / comments about:
>                 - Problem Statement
>                 - Which other drafts we can promise by the deadline
>         Presentation of work finished and in progress in IEEE 802.1
>         Presentation of work finished and in progress in other SDOs
> (especially
> IEC)
>         Presentation of work finished and in progress by industry
> consortia and
> vertical SDOs (ODVA, AVnu)
>         ...
>
> * Full Description of BOF
>
> *  CONFLICTS you wish to avoid, please be as specific as possible:
>
> *  Expected Attendance (figures from the previous IETF meeting are
> included in the message that is sent when scheduling opens):
>
> *  Special requests:
>
> *  Number of sessions:
>
> *  Length of sessions:
>
>
> * 1 hour
>
> * 2 hours
>
> * 2 1/2 hours
>
>
> PASCAL:  We=E2=80=99re looking to you to lead the discussion to apply for=
 the BOF.
>
> Thanks to all for a very healthy show of interest!
>
>
>
> =E2=80=94 Norm
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Norman Finn <nfinn@cisco.com>
> Date: Thursday, September 25, 2014 at 12:31 PM
> To: "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>
> Cc: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
> Subject: Problem statement
>
> >I=E2=80=99m working frantically on a problem statement.  Attached is a W=
ord
> >document with what I=E2=80=99ve gotten so far, based on the outline I pu=
t out the
> >other day.
> >
> >I volunteer to finish up section 1, and volunteer to write section 2,
> >before the deadline on Friday.
> >
> >I need volunteers to write the other sections, if we are to get it done.
> >I=E2=80=99m not sure it=E2=80=99s possible to finish.  I=E2=80=99d appre=
ciate the advice of Alia
> >and others as to the state of readiness.
> >
> >Also required is the application, itself.  Can=E2=80=99t get to that, my=
self.
> >
> >Can we do it?
> >
> >=E2=80=94 Norm
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
>

--047d7bdc18aa2c54f90503ec075a
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Given the activity and interest, I support having a d=
etnet activity in Honolulu.<br></div><div>Whether there is enough for a BoF=
 is up to the ADs to approve.<br></div><div>If a BoF is not approved, you c=
ould have a side meeting to prepare a BoF in Dallas.</div></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 4:0=
6 PM, Norman Finn (nfinn) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nfinn@cis=
co.com" target=3D"_blank">nfinn@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex">OK.=C2=A0 I read this email after I sent it.=C2=A0 I=
 guess the north shore of Kauai<br>
induces a bit of overoptimism.=C2=A0 :)=C2=A0 Ain=E2=80=99t no way we=E2=80=
=99ll have a Problem<br>
Statement by tomorrow!=C2=A0 I am absolutely confident that we can get a go=
od<br>
document out by the draft deadline (October 27).<br>
<br>
I=E2=80=99ll be offline for the next 12 hours, at least.=C2=A0 So,<br>
<br>
THE QUESTION:=C2=A0 DO WE GO FOR A BOF IN HONOLULU?<br>
<br>
This is the BOF request form with a few suggestions:<br>
<br>
<br>
* BOF&#39;s full name and acronym in brackets<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Deterministic Networking (DetNet)<br>
<br>
* AREA under which Working Group or BOF appears<br>
<br>
* Chair(s) Name(s) and e-mail address(es)<br>
<br>
* Agenda<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Should include discussion on / comments about:<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Problem Statement=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Which other draft=
s we can promise by the deadline<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Presentation of work finished and in progress i=
n IEEE 802.1<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Presentation of work finished and in progress i=
n other SDOs (especially<br>
IEC)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Presentation of work finished and in progress b=
y industry consortia and<br>
vertical SDOs (ODVA, AVnu)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ...<br>
<br>
* Full Description of BOF<br>
<br>
*=C2=A0 CONFLICTS you wish to avoid, please be as specific as possible:<br>
<br>
*=C2=A0 Expected Attendance (figures from the previous IETF meeting are<br>
included in the message that is sent when scheduling opens):<br>
<br>
*=C2=A0 Special requests:<br>
<br>
*=C2=A0 Number of sessions:<br>
<br>
*=C2=A0 Length of sessions:<br>
<br>
<br>
* 1 hour<br>
<br>
* 2 hours<br>
<br>
* 2 1/2 hours<br>
<br>
<br>
PASCAL:=C2=A0 We=E2=80=99re looking to you to lead the discussion to apply =
for the BOF.<br>
<br>
Thanks to all for a very healthy show of interest!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
=E2=80=94 Norm<br>
<div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Norman Finn &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nfinn@cisco.com">nfinn@cisco.com</a=
>&gt;<br>
Date: Thursday, September 25, 2014 at 12:31 PM<br>
To: &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: Alia Atlas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Problem statement<br>
<br>
&gt;I=E2=80=99m working frantically on a problem statement.=C2=A0 Attached =
is a Word<br>
&gt;document with what I=E2=80=99ve gotten so far, based on the outline I p=
ut out the<br>
&gt;other day.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;I volunteer to finish up section 1, and volunteer to write section 2,<b=
r>
&gt;before the deadline on Friday.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;I need volunteers to write the other sections, if we are to get it done=
.<br>
&gt;I=E2=80=99m not sure it=E2=80=99s possible to finish.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d=
 appreciate the advice of Alia<br>
&gt;and others as to the state of readiness.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Also required is the application, itself.=C2=A0 Can=E2=80=99t get to th=
at, myself.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Can we do it?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=E2=80=94 Norm<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
detnet mailing list<br>
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<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com>
To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>, "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>
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--_000_E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DDF9AExmbrcdx01ciscoc_--

--_004_E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DDF9AExmbrcdx01ciscoc_
Content-Type: text/plain; name="detnet charter v6.txt"
Content-Description: detnet charter v6.txt
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="detnet charter v6.txt"; size=10718;
	creation-date="Fri, 26 Sep 2014 09:20:40 GMT";
	modification-date="Fri, 26 Sep 2014 09:38:49 GMT"
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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: almost final charter proposal
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal
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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal
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Thanks Pascal. Looks good to me now.

--
Jouni Korhonen
Broadcom

(Sent from my mobile..)

"Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com<mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>>=
 kirjoitti 26.9.2014 kello 13.15:

detnet: "deterministic networking"

Background on deterministic networking


Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typicall=
y used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as well as move=
ment detection systems for use in process control (i.e., process manufactur=
ing) and factory automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its diff=
erent goals, OT has evolved in parallel but in a manner that is radically d=
ifferent from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and deterministic=
 networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.

The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Inter=
net, represents a major evolution for both sides. The work has already star=
ted; in particular, the industrial automation space has been developing a n=
umber of Ethernet-based replacements for existing digital control systems, =
often not packet-based (=93fieldbus=94 technologies). These replacements ar=
e meant to provide similar behavior as the incumbent protocols, and their c=
ommon focus is to transport a fully characterized flow over a well-controll=
ed environment (i.e., a factory floor), with a bounded latency, extraordina=
rily low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter. Examples of such protocols i=
nclude PROFINET, ODVA Ethernet/IP, and EtherCAT.

In parallel, the need for determinism drove the formation of the Audio/Vide=
o Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the profession=
al and home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical applications =
than some industrial networks, AVB networks share the requirement for extre=
mely low packet loss rates and guaranteed finite latency and jitter. Other =
instances of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for instance in th=
e context of vehicles and avionics, such as the mission-critical =93Avionic=
s Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet=94 (AFDX), which was designed as part of th=
e ARIC 664 standards.

The success of the 802.1 AVB standards in the professional studio environme=
nt and the needs of the industrial networking markets have led to the IEEE =
802.1 AVB Task Group becoming the Time-Sensitive Networking (TSN) Task Grou=
p (TG), with a much-expanded constituency from the industrial and vehicular=
 markets. Along with this expansion, the networks in consideration are beco=
ming larger and structured, and require deterministic forwarding beyond the=
 LAN boundaries. For instance, Industrial Automation segregates the network=
 along the broad lines of the Purdue Enterprise Reference Architecture (PER=
A), using different technologies at each level, and public infrastructures =
such as Electricity Automation require deterministic properties over the Wi=
de Area. The realization is now coming that the convergence of IT and OT ne=
tworks requires Layer-3, as well as Layer-2, capabilities.

In order to serve this extended requirement, the IETF and the IEEE must col=
laborate and define an abstract model that can be applicable both at Layer-=
2 and Layer-3, and along segments of different technologies. With this new =
work, a path may span, for instance, across a (limited) number of 802.1 bri=
dges and then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE80=
2.1 bridges may be operating at Layer-2 over Ethernet whereas the IP router=
s may be 6TiSCH nodes operating at Layer-2 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.=
15.4e MAC. The proposed model should enable a fully scheduled operation orc=
hestrated by a central controller, as well as a more distributed operation =
with probably lesser capabilities. In any fashion, the model should not com=
promise the ability of a network to keep carrying the sorts of traffic that=
 is already carried today.

Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the s=
ignaling elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elements t=
o be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. the =
IETF will also need to specify the necessary protocols, or protocol additio=
ns, based on relevant IETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH, to im=
plement the selected model. As a result of this work, it will be possible t=
o establish an multi-hop path over the IP network, for a particular flow wi=
th precise timing and throughput requirements, and carry this particular fl=
ow along the multi-hop path with such characteristics as low latency and ul=
tra-low jitter, duplication and elimination of packets over non-congruent p=
aths for a higher delivery ratio, and/or zero congestion loss. Depending on=
 the network capabilities and on the current state, requests to establish a=
 path by na end-node or a network management entity may be granted or rejec=
ted, and an existing path may be moved or removed.


WG description


The deterministic networking Working Group (detnet) will focus on the estab=
lishment and maintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-=
3 routed segments. Though only Layer-3 operations will be specified by the =
WG as Standard Track documents, the group will collaborate with IEEE802.1TS=
N, which designs the Layer-2 operations, to define a common paradigm, lever=
aging cross-participation and liaison work to maintain consistency. In that=
 common paradigm, a number of elements such as the host operation should be=
 agnostic to the organization of the multi-hop path.

The considered network will initially be of a moderate size, composed of mi=
xed Layer-2 / Layer-3 sub-networks of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts=
. A single administrative domain such as a campus, a Small/Home office Netw=
ork, or a controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to start with, and a=
pproaches that can be applied to the Internet at large will be favored.
The Working Group will initially specify the protocol elements that are req=
uired to enable an multi-hop path, and forward along that path with the det=
erministic properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jit=
ter, and high reliability. The work will apply to and only to flows that ca=
n be characterized in a manner that allows the network to 1) reserve the ap=
propriate resources for the flows in advance, and 2) release/reuse the reso=
urces when they are no more required. The work will cover the characterizat=
ion of flows, the tagging of packets, the required forwarding behaviors, as=
 well as the state that may need to be established in intermediate nodes; i=
t will not include end-to-end consideration such as transport protocols. Th=
is work focusses on flows and does not depend on the path setup protocol th=
at will be selected. The data models and flow tagging should be compatible =
with the similar work done at IEEE801.1TSN so they could be either directly=
 usable at both layers, or mappable in an unambiguous fashion.
The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Inte=
rnet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Rout=
ing and Security areas. As the work progresses, some of the items initially=
 considered the deterministic networking WG may be transferred to those wor=
king groups as deemed appropriate by all parties.

The WG will conclude this round with the selection of a solution paradigm a=
nd suggest a base protocol that can be applied or extended.
Work Items

- Deliverables:

  * An analysis of the needs in various deployment environments. 3-4 inform=
ational track documents which could include factory automation, grid automa=
tion, avionics and audio/video studios.

  * A generic problem statement including an analysis of the proposed solut=
ions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN.

  * A study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the defini=
tion of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (as per RF=
C 7346). For instance, the deterministic technology needs to be consistent =
over a Link- or a Realm-Local scope and achievable across technologies and =
layers over an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.

  * A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explore=
d, such as peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), centra=
l controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), connection to operations (app=
lication) controllers, and mixed scenarios, in relation to the generic scop=
ing of IP.
  * A standards track data flow characterization model document for use in =
flow reservation protocol. The model should be independent from the protoco=
l(s) that are selected from the solution taxonomy (e.g. an evolution of PCE=
P or RSVP).

  * A standards track flow identification document for use in packet forwar=
ding, with the specific application to at least classical IP, 6TiSCH track =
forwarding, and MPLS.

  * A standards track data model for the abstract state to be installed in =
the forwarding device and the associated packet forwarding behavior.

  The WG will conclude this round with the selection of a paradigm and a ba=
se protocol that can be applied or extended.


Cheers,

Pascal
_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

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<div>Thanks Pascal. Looks good to me now.&nbsp;<br>
<br>
<div>--&nbsp;</div>
<div>Jouni Korhonen</div>
<div>Broadcom</div>
<div><br>
</div>
(Sent from my mobile..)</div>
<div><br>
&quot;Pascal Thubert (pthubert)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pthubert@cisco.=
com">pthubert@cisco.com</a>&gt; kirjoitti 26.9.2014 kello 13.15:<br>
<br>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">detnet: &quot;determinist=
ic networking&quot;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:=
#1F497D">Background on deterministic networking
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Operational Technology (O=
T) refers to industrial networks that are typically used for monitoring sys=
tems and supporting control loops, as well as movement detection
 systems for use in process control (i.e., process manufacturing) and facto=
ry automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its different goals, O=
T has evolved in parallel but in a manner that is radically different from =
IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure,
 reliable and deterministic networks, with limited scalability over a bound=
ed area.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The convergence of IT and=
 OT technologies, also called the Industrial Internet, represents a major e=
volution for both sides. The work has already started; in
 particular, the industrial automation space has been developing a number o=
f Ethernet-based replacements for existing digital control systems, often n=
ot packet-based (=93fieldbus=94 technologies). These replacements are meant=
 to provide similar behavior as the
 incumbent protocols, and their common focus is to transport a fully charac=
terized flow over a well-controlled environment (i.e., a factory floor), wi=
th a bounded latency, extraordinarily low frame loss, and a very narrow jit=
ter. Examples of such protocols
 include PROFINET, ODVA Ethernet/IP, and EtherCAT.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In parallel, the need for=
 determinism drove the formation of the Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standard=
s effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the professional and
 home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical applications than s=
ome industrial networks, AVB networks share the requirement for extremely l=
ow packet loss rates and guaranteed finite latency and jitter. Other instan=
ces of deterministic networks have
 arisen as well, for instance in the context of vehicles and avionics, such=
 as the mission-critical =93Avionics Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet=94 (AFDX=
), which was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standards.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The success of the 802.1 =
AVB standards in the professional studio environment and the needs of the i=
ndustrial networking markets have led to the IEEE 802.1
 AVB Task Group becoming the Time-Sensitive Networking (TSN) Task Group (TG=
), with a much-expanded constituency from the industrial and vehicular mark=
ets. Along with this expansion, the networks in consideration are becoming =
larger and structured, and require
 deterministic forwarding beyond the LAN boundaries. For instance, Industri=
al Automation segregates the network along the broad lines of the Purdue En=
terprise Reference Architecture (PERA), using different technologies at eac=
h level, and public infrastructures
 such as Electricity Automation require deterministic properties over the W=
ide Area. The realization is now coming that the convergence of IT and OT n=
etworks requires Layer-3, as well as Layer-2, capabilities.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In order to serve this ex=
tended requirement, the IETF and the IEEE must collaborate and define an ab=
stract model that can be applicable both at Layer-2 and
 Layer-3, and along segments of different technologies. With this new work,=
 a path may span, for instance, across a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges =
and then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE802.1 b=
ridges may be operating at Layer-2
 over Ethernet whereas the IP routers may be 6TiSCH nodes operating at Laye=
r-2 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.15.4e MAC. The proposed model should en=
able a fully scheduled operation orchestrated by a central controller, as w=
ell as a more distributed operation
 with probably lesser capabilities. In any fashion, the model should not co=
mpromise the ability of a network to keep carrying the sorts of traffic tha=
t is already carried today.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Once the abstract model i=
s agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the signaling elements to be u=
sed to establish a path and the tagging elements to be used
 identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. the IETF will=
 also need to specify the necessary protocols, or protocol additions, based=
 on relevant IETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH, to implement t=
he selected model. As a result of
 this work, it will be possible to establish an multi-hop path over the IP =
network, for a particular flow with precise timing and throughput requireme=
nts, and carry this particular flow along the multi-hop path with such char=
acteristics as low latency and ultra-low
 jitter, duplication and elimination of packets over non-congruent paths fo=
r a higher delivery ratio, and/or zero congestion loss. Depending on the ne=
twork capabilities and on the current state, requests to establish a path b=
y na end-node or a network management
 entity may be granted or rejected, and an existing path may be moved or re=
moved.&nbsp;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:=
#1F497D">WG description<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The deterministic network=
ing Working Group (detnet) will focus on the establishment and maintenance =
of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-3 routed
 segments. Though only Layer-3 operations will be specified by the WG as St=
andard Track documents, the group will collaborate with IEEE802.1TSN, which=
 designs the Layer-2 operations, to define a common paradigm, leveraging cr=
oss-participation and liaison work
 to maintain consistency. In that common paradigm, a number of elements suc=
h as the host operation should be agnostic to the organization of the multi=
-hop path.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The considered network wi=
ll initially be of a moderate size, composed of mixed Layer-2 / Layer-3 sub=
-networks of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts. A single
 administrative domain such as a campus, a Small/Home office Network, or a =
controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to start with, and approaches =
that can be applied to the Internet at large will be favored.<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The Working Group will in=
itially specify the protocol elements that are required to enable an multi-=
hop path, and forward along that path with the deterministic
 properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jitter, and h=
igh reliability. The work will apply to and only to flows that can be chara=
cterized in a manner that allows the network to 1) reserve the appropriate =
resources for the flows in advance,
 and 2) release/reuse the resources when they are no more required. The wor=
k will cover the characterization of flows, the tagging of packets, the req=
uired forwarding behaviors, as well as the state that may need to be establ=
ished in intermediate nodes; it
 will not include end-to-end consideration such as transport protocols. Thi=
s work focusses on flows and does not depend on the path setup protocol tha=
t will be selected. The data models and flow tagging should be compatible w=
ith the similar work done at IEEE801.1TSN
 so they could be either directly usable at both layers, or mappable in an =
unambiguous fashion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The WG will interface wit=
h other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Internet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Trans=
port (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Routing and
 Security areas. As the work progresses, some of the items initially consid=
ered the deterministic networking WG may be transferred to those working gr=
oups as deemed appropriate by all parties.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The WG will conclude this=
 round with the selection of a solution paradigm and suggest a base protoco=
l that can be applied or extended.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:=
#1F497D">Work Items&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">- Deliverables:<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* An analysis=
 of the needs in various deployment environments. 3-4 informational track d=
ocuments which could include factory automation, grid automation,
 avionics and audio/video studios.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A generic p=
roblem statement including an analysis of the proposed solutions of the rel=
ated work at IEEE802.1TSN.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A study of =
generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the definition of Link-Lo=
cal, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (as per RFC 7346).
 For instance, the deterministic technology needs to be consistent over a L=
ink- or a Realm-Local scope and achievable across technologies and layers o=
ver an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A solution =
taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explored, such as peer=
-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), central controller
 (along the lines of SDN or PCE), connection to operations (application) co=
ntrollers, and mixed scenarios, in relation to the generic scoping of IP.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A standards=
 track data flow characterization model document for use in flow reservatio=
n protocol. The model should be independent from the protocol(s) that
 are selected from the solution taxonomy (e.g. an evolution of PCEP or RSVP=
). <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A standards=
 track flow identification document for use in packet forwarding, with the =
specific application to at least classical IP, 6TiSCH track forwarding,
 and MPLS. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A standards=
 track data model for the abstract state to be installed in the forwarding =
device and the associated packet forwarding behavior.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp; The WG will conclu=
de this round with the selection of a paradigm and a base protocol that can=
 be applied or extended.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Cheers,<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Pascal<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span>detnet mailing list</span><br>
<span><a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a></span><br>
<span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet">https://www.=
ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet</a></span><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>

--_000_78BCC25DC61A40D991C4E63F43755369broadcomcom_--


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+1

Congratulations to all for the fantastic work, this will be a very good
activity to have at the IETF.

(very) minor typos:
- focusses -> focuses
- IEEE801.1TSN -> IEEE802.1TSN

On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 3:57 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen@broadcom.co=
m
> wrote:

>  Thanks Pascal. Looks good to me now.
>
> --
> Jouni Korhonen
> Broadcom
>
>  (Sent from my mobile..)
>
> "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com> kirjoitti 26.9.2014
> kello 13.15:
>
>   detnet: "deterministic networking"
>
>
>
> Background on deterministic networking
>
>
>
>
>
> Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are
> typically used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as we=
ll
> as movement detection systems for use in process control (i.e., process
> manufacturing) and factory automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due
> to its different goals, OT has evolved in parallel but in a manner that i=
s
> radically different from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and
> deterministic networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.
>
>
>
> The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial
> Internet, represents a major evolution for both sides. The work has alrea=
dy
> started; in particular, the industrial automation space has been developi=
ng
> a number of Ethernet-based replacements for existing digital control
> systems, often not packet-based (=E2=80=9Cfieldbus=E2=80=9D technologies)=
. These
> replacements are meant to provide similar behavior as the incumbent
> protocols, and their common focus is to transport a fully characterized
> flow over a well-controlled environment (i.e., a factory floor), with a
> bounded latency, extraordinarily low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter=
.
> Examples of such protocols include PROFINET, ODVA Ethernet/IP, and EtherC=
AT.
>
>
>
> In parallel, the need for determinism drove the formation of the
> Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to th=
e
> professional and home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical
> applications than some industrial networks, AVB networks share the
> requirement for extremely low packet loss rates and guaranteed finite
> latency and jitter. Other instances of deterministic networks have arisen
> as well, for instance in the context of vehicles and avionics, such as th=
e
> mission-critical =E2=80=9CAvionics Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet=E2=80=9D=
 (AFDX), which was
> designed as part of the ARIC 664 standards.
>
>
>
> The success of the 802.1 AVB standards in the professional studio
> environment and the needs of the industrial networking markets have led t=
o
> the IEEE 802.1 AVB Task Group becoming the Time-Sensitive Networking (TSN=
)
> Task Group (TG), with a much-expanded constituency from the industrial an=
d
> vehicular markets. Along with this expansion, the networks in considerati=
on
> are becoming larger and structured, and require deterministic forwarding
> beyond the LAN boundaries. For instance, Industrial Automation segregates
> the network along the broad lines of the Purdue Enterprise Reference
> Architecture (PERA), using different technologies at each level, and publ=
ic
> infrastructures such as Electricity Automation require deterministic
> properties over the Wide Area. The realization is now coming that the
> convergence of IT and OT networks requires Layer-3, as well as Layer-2,
> capabilities.
>
>
>
> In order to serve this extended requirement, the IETF and the IEEE must
> collaborate and define an abstract model that can be applicable both at
> Layer-2 and Layer-3, and along segments of different technologies. With
> this new work, a path may span, for instance, across a (limited) number o=
f
> 802.1 bridges and then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example,
> the IEEE802.1 bridges may be operating at Layer-2 over Ethernet whereas t=
he
> IP routers may be 6TiSCH nodes operating at Layer-2 and/or Layer-3 over t=
he
> IEEE802.15.4e MAC. The proposed model should enable a fully scheduled
> operation orchestrated by a central controller, as well as a more
> distributed operation with probably lesser capabilities. In any fashion,
> the model should not compromise the ability of a network to keep carrying
> the sorts of traffic that is already carried today.
>
>
>
> Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the
> signaling elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging element=
s
> to be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. t=
he
> IETF will also need to specify the necessary protocols, or protocol
> additions, based on relevant IETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS and
> 6TiSCH, to implement the selected model. As a result of this work, it wil=
l
> be possible to establish an multi-hop path over the IP network, for a
> particular flow with precise timing and throughput requirements, and carr=
y
> this particular flow along the multi-hop path with such characteristics a=
s
> low latency and ultra-low jitter, duplication and elimination of packets
> over non-congruent paths for a higher delivery ratio, and/or zero
> congestion loss. Depending on the network capabilities and on the current
> state, requests to establish a path by na end-node or a network managemen=
t
> entity may be granted or rejected, and an existing path may be moved or
> removed.
>
>
>
>
>
> WG description
>
>
>
>
>
> The deterministic networking Working Group (detnet) will focus on the
> establishment and maintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged and
> Layer-3 routed segments. Though only Layer-3 operations will be specified
> by the WG as Standard Track documents, the group will collaborate with
> IEEE802.1TSN, which designs the Layer-2 operations, to define a common
> paradigm, leveraging cross-participation and liaison work to maintain
> consistency. In that common paradigm, a number of elements such as the ho=
st
> operation should be agnostic to the organization of the multi-hop path.
>
>
>
> The considered network will initially be of a moderate size, composed of
> mixed Layer-2 / Layer-3 sub-networks of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and
> hosts. A single administrative domain such as a campus, a Small/Home offi=
ce
> Network, or a controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to start with,
> and approaches that can be applied to the Internet at large will be favor=
ed.
>
>  The Working Group will initially specify the protocol elements that are
> required to enable an multi-hop path, and forward along that path with th=
e
> deterministic properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-lo=
w
> jitter, and high reliability. The work will apply to and only to flows th=
at
> can be characterized in a manner that allows the network to 1) reserve th=
e
> appropriate resources for the flows in advance, and 2) release/reuse the
> resources when they are no more required. The work will cover the
> characterization of flows, the tagging of packets, the required forwardin=
g
> behaviors, as well as the state that may need to be established in
> intermediate nodes; it will not include end-to-end consideration such as
> transport protocols. This work focusses on flows and does not depend on t=
he
> path setup protocol that will be selected. The data models and flow taggi=
ng
> should be compatible with the similar work done at IEEE801.1TSN so they
> could be either directly usable at both layers, or mappable in an
> unambiguous fashion.
>
>  The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the
> Internet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management=
,
> Routing and Security areas. As the work progresses, some of the items
> initially considered the deterministic networking WG may be transferred t=
o
> those working groups as deemed appropriate by all parties.
>
>
>
> The WG will conclude this round with the selection of a solution paradigm
> and suggest a base protocol that can be applied or extended.
>
>  Work Items
>
>
>
>  - Deliverables:
>
>
>
>   * An analysis of the needs in various deployment environments. 3-4
> informational track documents which could include factory automation, gri=
d
> automation, avionics and audio/video studios.
>
>
>
>   * A generic problem statement including an analysis of the proposed
> solutions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN.
>
>
>
>   * A study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the
> definition of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (a=
s
> per RFC 7346). For instance, the deterministic technology needs to be
> consistent over a Link- or a Realm-Local scope and achievable across
> technologies and layers over an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will b=
e
> studied for IPv4.
>
>
>
>   * A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be
> explored, such as peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP=
),
> central controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), connection to
> operations (application) controllers, and mixed scenarios, in relation to
> the generic scoping of IP.
>
>    * A standards track data flow characterization model document for use
> in flow reservation protocol. The model should be independent from the
> protocol(s) that are selected from the solution taxonomy (e.g. an evoluti=
on
> of PCEP or RSVP).
>
>
>
>   * A standards track flow identification document for use in packet
> forwarding, with the specific application to at least classical IP, 6TiSC=
H
> track forwarding, and MPLS.
>
>
>
>   * A standards track data model for the abstract state to be installed i=
n
> the forwarding device and the associated packet forwarding behavior.
>
>
>
>   The WG will conclude this round with the selection of a paradigm and a
> base protocol that can be applied or extended.
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Pascal
>
>  _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">+1<div><br></div><div>Congratulations to all for the fanta=
stic work, this will be a very good activity to have at the IETF.</div><div=
><br></div><div>(very) minor typos:</div><div>-=C2=A0focusses -&gt;=C2=A0fo=
cuses</div><div>-=C2=A0IEEE801.1TSN -&gt;=C2=A0IEEE802.1TSN</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 3:5=
7 AM, Jouni Korhonen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.korhonen=
@broadcom.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com</a>&gt;</span>=
 wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div dir=3D"auto">
<div>Thanks Pascal. Looks good to me now.=C2=A0<br>
<br>
<div>--=C2=A0</div>
<div>Jouni Korhonen</div>
<div>Broadcom</div>
<div><br>
</div>
(Sent from my mobile..)</div>
<div><br>
&quot;Pascal Thubert (pthubert)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pthubert@cisco.=
com" target=3D"_blank">pthubert@cisco.com</a>&gt; kirjoitti 26.9.2014 kello=
 13.15:<br>
<br>
</div><div><div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>


<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">detnet: &quot;determinist=
ic networking&quot;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:=
#1f497d">Background on deterministic networking
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Operational Technology (O=
T) refers to industrial networks that are typically used for monitoring sys=
tems and supporting control loops, as well as movement detection
 systems for use in process control (i.e., process manufacturing) and facto=
ry automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its different goals, O=
T has evolved in parallel but in a manner that is radically different from =
IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure,
 reliable and deterministic networks, with limited scalability over a bound=
ed area.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The convergence of IT and=
 OT technologies, also called the Industrial Internet, represents a major e=
volution for both sides. The work has already started; in
 particular, the industrial automation space has been developing a number o=
f Ethernet-based replacements for existing digital control systems, often n=
ot packet-based (=E2=80=9Cfieldbus=E2=80=9D technologies). These replacemen=
ts are meant to provide similar behavior as the
 incumbent protocols, and their common focus is to transport a fully charac=
terized flow over a well-controlled environment (i.e., a factory floor), wi=
th a bounded latency, extraordinarily low frame loss, and a very narrow jit=
ter. Examples of such protocols
 include PROFINET, ODVA Ethernet/IP, and EtherCAT.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">In parallel, the need for=
 determinism drove the formation of the Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standard=
s effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the professional and
 home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical applications than s=
ome industrial networks, AVB networks share the requirement for extremely l=
ow packet loss rates and guaranteed finite latency and jitter. Other instan=
ces of deterministic networks have
 arisen as well, for instance in the context of vehicles and avionics, such=
 as the mission-critical =E2=80=9CAvionics Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet=E2=
=80=9D (AFDX), which was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standards.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The success of the 802.1 =
AVB standards in the professional studio environment and the needs of the i=
ndustrial networking markets have led to the IEEE 802.1
 AVB Task Group becoming the Time-Sensitive Networking (TSN) Task Group (TG=
), with a much-expanded constituency from the industrial and vehicular mark=
ets. Along with this expansion, the networks in consideration are becoming =
larger and structured, and require
 deterministic forwarding beyond the LAN boundaries. For instance, Industri=
al Automation segregates the network along the broad lines of the Purdue En=
terprise Reference Architecture (PERA), using different technologies at eac=
h level, and public infrastructures
 such as Electricity Automation require deterministic properties over the W=
ide Area. The realization is now coming that the convergence of IT and OT n=
etworks requires Layer-3, as well as Layer-2, capabilities.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">In order to serve this ex=
tended requirement, the IETF and the IEEE must collaborate and define an ab=
stract model that can be applicable both at Layer-2 and
 Layer-3, and along segments of different technologies. With this new work,=
 a path may span, for instance, across a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges =
and then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE802.1 b=
ridges may be operating at Layer-2
 over Ethernet whereas the IP routers may be 6TiSCH nodes operating at Laye=
r-2 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.15.4e MAC. The proposed model should en=
able a fully scheduled operation orchestrated by a central controller, as w=
ell as a more distributed operation
 with probably lesser capabilities. In any fashion, the model should not co=
mpromise the ability of a network to keep carrying the sorts of traffic tha=
t is already carried today.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Once the abstract model i=
s agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the signaling elements to be u=
sed to establish a path and the tagging elements to be used
 identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. the IETF will=
 also need to specify the necessary protocols, or protocol additions, based=
 on relevant IETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH, to implement t=
he selected model. As a result of
 this work, it will be possible to establish an multi-hop path over the IP =
network, for a particular flow with precise timing and throughput requireme=
nts, and carry this particular flow along the multi-hop path with such char=
acteristics as low latency and ultra-low
 jitter, duplication and elimination of packets over non-congruent paths fo=
r a higher delivery ratio, and/or zero congestion loss. Depending on the ne=
twork capabilities and on the current state, requests to establish a path b=
y na end-node or a network management
 entity may be granted or rejected, and an existing path may be moved or re=
moved.=C2=A0=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:=
#1f497d">WG description<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The deterministic network=
ing Working Group (detnet) will focus on the establishment and maintenance =
of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-3 routed
 segments. Though only Layer-3 operations will be specified by the WG as St=
andard Track documents, the group will collaborate with IEEE802.1TSN, which=
 designs the Layer-2 operations, to define a common paradigm, leveraging cr=
oss-participation and liaison work
 to maintain consistency. In that common paradigm, a number of elements suc=
h as the host operation should be agnostic to the organization of the multi=
-hop path.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The considered network wi=
ll initially be of a moderate size, composed of mixed Layer-2 / Layer-3 sub=
-networks of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts. A single
 administrative domain such as a campus, a Small/Home office Network, or a =
controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to start with, and approaches =
that can be applied to the Internet at large will be favored.<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The Working Group will in=
itially specify the protocol elements that are required to enable an multi-=
hop path, and forward along that path with the deterministic
 properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jitter, and h=
igh reliability. The work will apply to and only to flows that can be chara=
cterized in a manner that allows the network to 1) reserve the appropriate =
resources for the flows in advance,
 and 2) release/reuse the resources when they are no more required. The wor=
k will cover the characterization of flows, the tagging of packets, the req=
uired forwarding behaviors, as well as the state that may need to be establ=
ished in intermediate nodes; it
 will not include end-to-end consideration such as transport protocols. Thi=
s work focusses on flows and does not depend on the path setup protocol tha=
t will be selected. The data models and flow tagging should be compatible w=
ith the similar work done at IEEE801.1TSN
 so they could be either directly usable at both layers, or mappable in an =
unambiguous fashion.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The WG will interface wit=
h other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Internet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Trans=
port (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Routing and
 Security areas. As the work progresses, some of the items initially consid=
ered the deterministic networking WG may be transferred to those working gr=
oups as deemed appropriate by all parties.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The WG will conclude this=
 round with the selection of a solution paradigm and suggest a base protoco=
l that can be applied or extended.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:=
#1f497d">Work Items=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">- Deliverables:<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0* An analysis=
 of the needs in various deployment environments. 3-4 informational track d=
ocuments which could include factory automation, grid automation,
 avionics and audio/video studios.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0* A generic p=
roblem statement including an analysis of the proposed solutions of the rel=
ated work at IEEE802.1TSN.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0* A study of =
generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the definition of Link-Lo=
cal, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (as per RFC 7346).
 For instance, the deterministic technology needs to be consistent over a L=
ink- or a Realm-Local scope and achievable across technologies and layers o=
ver an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0* A solution =
taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explored, such as peer=
-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), central controller
 (along the lines of SDN or PCE), connection to operations (application) co=
ntrollers, and mixed scenarios, in relation to the generic scoping of IP.<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0* A standards=
 track data flow characterization model document for use in flow reservatio=
n protocol. The model should be independent from the protocol(s) that
 are selected from the solution taxonomy (e.g. an evolution of PCEP or RSVP=
). <u></u>
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0* A standards=
 track flow identification document for use in packet forwarding, with the =
specific application to at least classical IP, 6TiSCH track forwarding,
 and MPLS. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0* A standards=
 track data model for the abstract state to be installed in the forwarding =
device and the associated packet forwarding behavior.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0 The WG will conclu=
de this round with the selection of a paradigm and a base protocol that can=
 be applied or extended.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Cheers,<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Pascal<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span>detnet mailing list</span><br>
<span><a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">detnet@ietf.org<=
/a></span><br>
<span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet</a></span><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>

<br>_______________________________________________<br>
detnet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">detnet@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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--001a11c2341aa183070503fbd374
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Pascal,
+1 on the plan.

I believe it would be good to have a (temporary) homepage for this
activity, which would list the detnet (or affiliated) I-D.

On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 5:51 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <
pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:

> I agree with Jouni,
>
> We can start with a 00 and update rapidly.
>
> I compiled text from the charter background, Norm's work and references,
> added some problems to be solved and a beginning of a status of the work at
> the IETF, and posted.
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement
>
> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement-00.txt
>
> Cheers,
>
> Pascal
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
> Sent: vendredi 26 septembre 2014 14:47
> To: Norman Finn (nfinn); Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Pascal Thubert
> (pthubert); Norman Finn (nfinn)
> Subject: New Version Notification for
> draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement-00.txt
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Pascal Thubert and posted to the IETF
> repository.
>
> Name:           draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement
> Revision:       00
> Title:          Deterministic Networking Problem Statement
> Document date:  2014-09-26
> Group:          Individual Submission
> Pages:          11
> URL:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement-00.txt
> Status:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement/
> Htmlized:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement-00
>
>
> Abstract:
>    This paper documents the needs in various industries to establish
>    multi-hop paths for characterized flows with deterministic properties
>    .
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at
> tools.ietf.org.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
> _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
>

--001a11c2341aa183070503fbd374
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Pascal,<div>+1 on the plan.</div><div><br></div><div>I bel=
ieve it would be good to have a (temporary) homepage for this activity, whi=
ch would list the detnet (or affiliated) I-D.</div></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 5:51 AM, Pa=
scal Thubert (pthubert) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pthubert@ci=
sco.com" target=3D"_blank">pthubert@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex">I agree with Jouni,<br>
<br>
We can start with a 00 and update rapidly.<br>
<br>
I compiled text from the charter background, Norm&#39;s work and references=
, added some problems to be solved and a beginning of a status of the work =
at the IETF, and posted.<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement" =
target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-finn-detnet-problem-stat=
ement</a><br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement-00.tx=
t" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-finn-detnet-problem-state=
ment-00.txt</a><br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Pascal<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org<=
/a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@iet=
f.org</a>]<br>
Sent: vendredi 26 septembre 2014 14:47<br>
To: Norman Finn (nfinn); Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Pascal Thubert (pthuber=
t); Norman Finn (nfinn)<br>
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement-0=
0.txt<br>
<br>
<br>
A new version of I-D, draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Pascal Thubert and posted to the IETF re=
pository.<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-finn-detnet-problem-sta=
tement<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Deterministic Networking Problem S=
tatement<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2014-09-26<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 11<br>
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.or=
g/internet-drafts/draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement-00.txt" target=3D"_bl=
ank">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-finn-detnet-problem-statemen=
t-00.txt</a><br>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement/" target=3D"_blank">https://d=
atatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement/</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/d=
raft-finn-detnet-problem-statement-00" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.=
org/html/draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement-00</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This paper documents the needs in various industries to establ=
ish<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0multi-hop paths for characterized flows with deterministic pro=
perties<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://to=
ols.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<br>
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--001a11c2341aa183070503fbd374--


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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Grossman, Ethan A." <eagros@dolby.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal
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--_000_CED015AF51C74C6B80BAF44582C664A6ciscocom_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
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Thanks Ethan!

We are actually listing "vehicles" in the proposed charter text to mean car=
s trains and buses control networks on top of avionics.

Should we have more emphasis?

Pascal

Le 26 sept. 2014 =E0 20:18, Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com<mailto:eag=
ros@dolby.com>> a =E9crit :

A couple more very tiny typos:


1) "Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify t=
he signaling elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elemen=
ts to be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. =
the IETF" (--> The IETF).



2) "The Working Group will initially specify the protocol elements that are=
 required to enable an multi-hop path" (--> a multi-hop path)



3) No mention of automotive - assume that is intentional since not internet=
 related?


Ethan.

________________________________
From: Thomas Watteyne [watteyne@eecs.berkeley.edu<mailto:watteyne@eecs.berk=
eley.edu>]
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 11:02 AM
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert); detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal

+1

Congratulations to all for the fantastic work, this will be a very good act=
ivity to have at the IETF.

(very) minor typos:
- focusses -> focuses
- IEEE801.1TSN -> IEEE802.1TSN

On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 3:57 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen@broadcom.co=
m<mailto:jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com>> wrote:
Thanks Pascal. Looks good to me now.

--
Jouni Korhonen
Broadcom

(Sent from my mobile..)

"Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com<mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>>=
 kirjoitti 26.9.2014 kello 13.15:

detnet: "deterministic networking"

Background on deterministic networking


Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typicall=
y used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as well as move=
ment detection systems for use in process control (i.e., process manufactur=
ing) and factory automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its diff=
erent goals, OT has evolved in parallel but in a manner that is radically d=
ifferent from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and deterministic=
 networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.

The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Inter=
net, represents a major evolution for both sides. The work has already star=
ted; in particular, the industrial automation space has been developing a n=
umber of Ethernet-based replacements for existing digital control systems, =
often not packet-based (=93fieldbus=94 technologies). These replacements ar=
e meant to provide similar behavior as the incumbent protocols, and their c=
ommon focus is to transport a fully characterized flow over a well-controll=
ed environment (i.e., a factory floor), with a bounded latency, extraordina=
rily low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter. Examples of such protocols i=
nclude PROFINET, ODVA Ethernet/IP, and EtherCAT.

In parallel, the need for determinism drove the formation of the Audio/Vide=
o Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the profession=
al and home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical applications =
than some industrial networks, AVB networks share the requirement for extre=
mely low packet loss rates and guaranteed finite latency and jitter. Other =
instances of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for instance in th=
e context of vehicles and avionics, such as the mission-critical =93Avionic=
s Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet=94 (AFDX), which was designed as part of th=
e ARIC 664 standards.

The success of the 802.1 AVB standards in the professional studio environme=
nt and the needs of the industrial networking markets have led to the IEEE =
802.1 AVB Task Group becoming the Time-Sensitive Networking (TSN) Task Grou=
p (TG), with a much-expanded constituency from the industrial and vehicular=
 markets. Along with this expansion, the networks in consideration are beco=
ming larger and structured, and require deterministic forwarding beyond the=
 LAN boundaries. For instance, Industrial Automation segregates the network=
 along the broad lines of the Purdue Enterprise Reference Architecture (PER=
A), using different technologies at each level, and public infrastructures =
such as Electricity Automation require deterministic properties over the Wi=
de Area. The realization is now coming that the convergence of IT and OT ne=
tworks requires Layer-3, as well as Layer-2, capabilities.

In order to serve this extended requirement, the IETF and the IEEE must col=
laborate and define an abstract model that can be applicable both at Layer-=
2 and Layer-3, and along segments of different technologies. With this new =
work, a path may span, for instance, across a (limited) number of 802.1 bri=
dges and then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE80=
2.1 bridges may be operating at Layer-2 over Ethernet whereas the IP router=
s may be 6TiSCH nodes operating at Layer-2 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.=
15.4e MAC. The proposed model should enable a fully scheduled operation orc=
hestrated by a central controller, as well as a more distributed operation =
with probably lesser capabilities. In any fashion, the model should not com=
promise the ability of a network to keep carrying the sorts of traffic that=
 is already carried today.

Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the s=
ignaling elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elements t=
o be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. the =
IETF will also need to specify the necessary protocols, or protocol additio=
ns, based on relevant IETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH, to im=
plement the selected model. As a result of this work, it will be possible t=
o establish an multi-hop path over the IP network, for a particular flow wi=
th precise timing and throughput requirements, and carry this particular fl=
ow along the multi-hop path with such characteristics as low latency and ul=
tra-low jitter, duplication and elimination of packets over non-congruent p=
aths for a higher delivery ratio, and/or zero congestion loss. Depending on=
 the network capabilities and on the current state, requests to establish a=
 path by na end-node or a network management entity may be granted or rejec=
ted, and an existing path may be moved or removed.


WG description


The deterministic networking Working Group (detnet) will focus on the estab=
lishment and maintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-=
3 routed segments. Though only Layer-3 operations will be specified by the =
WG as Standard Track documents, the group will collaborate with IEEE802.1TS=
N, which designs the Layer-2 operations, to define a common paradigm, lever=
aging cross-participation and liaison work to maintain consistency. In that=
 common paradigm, a number of elements such as the host operation should be=
 agnostic to the organization of the multi-hop path.

The considered network will initially be of a moderate size, composed of mi=
xed Layer-2 / Layer-3 sub-networks of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts=
. A single administrative domain such as a campus, a Small/Home office Netw=
ork, or a controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to start with, and a=
pproaches that can be applied to the Internet at large will be favored.
The Working Group will initially specify the protocol elements that are req=
uired to enable an multi-hop path, and forward along that path with the det=
erministic properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jit=
ter, and high reliability. The work will apply to and only to flows that ca=
n be characterized in a manner that allows the network to 1) reserve the ap=
propriate resources for the flows in advance, and 2) release/reuse the reso=
urces when they are no more required. The work will cover the characterizat=
ion of flows, the tagging of packets, the required forwarding behaviors, as=
 well as the state that may need to be established in intermediate nodes; i=
t will not include end-to-end consideration such as transport protocols. Th=
is work focusses on flows and does not depend on the path setup protocol th=
at will be selected. The data models and flow tagging should be compatible =
with the similar work done at IEEE801.1TSN so they could be either directly=
 usable at both layers, or mappable in an unambiguous fashion.
The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Inte=
rnet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Rout=
ing and Security areas. As the work progresses, some of the items initially=
 considered the deterministic networking WG may be transferred to those wor=
king groups as deemed appropriate by all parties.

The WG will conclude this round with the selection of a solution paradigm a=
nd suggest a base protocol that can be applied or extended.
Work Items

- Deliverables:

  * An analysis of the needs in various deployment environments. 3-4 inform=
ational track documents which could include factory automation, grid automa=
tion, avionics and audio/video studios.

  * A generic problem statement including an analysis of the proposed solut=
ions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN.

  * A study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the defini=
tion of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (as per RF=
C 7346). For instance, the deterministic technology needs to be consistent =
over a Link- or a Realm-Local scope and achievable across technologies and =
layers over an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.

  * A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explore=
d, such as peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), centra=
l controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), connection to operations (app=
lication) controllers, and mixed scenarios, in relation to the generic scop=
ing of IP.
  * A standards track data flow characterization model document for use in =
flow reservation protocol. The model should be independent from the protoco=
l(s) that are selected from the solution taxonomy (e.g. an evolution of PCE=
P or RSVP).

  * A standards track flow identification document for use in packet forwar=
ding, with the specific application to at least classical IP, 6TiSCH track =
forwarding, and MPLS.

  * A standards track data model for the abstract state to be installed in =
the forwarding device and the associated packet forwarding behavior.

  The WG will conclude this round with the selection of a paradigm and a ba=
se protocol that can be applied or extended.


Cheers,

Pascal
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F2y3fFcm1dpZA%3D%3D%0A&r=3DoIBsd6zVa3NydYM8E7NmP5Ygimfr0ucB13K%2FaVFvYLE%3D=
%0A&m=3D5Z3Md9DQuyTl9Lhy3ThHYKiHUoaudmhRwwCNgTWLQ5g%3D%0A&s=3D6c7a1ae910ebf=
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<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
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<div>Thanks Ethan!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We are actually listing &quot;vehicles&quot; in the proposed charter t=
ext to mean cars trains and buses control networks on top of avionics.&nbsp=
;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Should we have more emphasis?<br>
<br>
Pascal</div>
<div><br>
Le 26 sept. 2014 =E0 20:18, Grossman, Ethan A. &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eagros=
@dolby.com">eagros@dolby.com</a>&gt; a =E9crit&nbsp;:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div style=3D"direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: =
10pt;">A couple more very tiny typos:&nbsp;
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11.0pt">1) &quot;Once =
the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the signal=
ing elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elements to be =
used identify the flows that are to be
 forwarded along that path. <font color=3D"#ff0000">the IETF&quot; (--&gt; =
The IETF).&nbsp;</font></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;<span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11.0pt">2) &quot;The W=
orking Group will initially specify the protocol elements that are required=
 to enable
<font color=3D"#ff0000">an multi-hop path&quot; (--&gt; a multi-hop path)</=
font></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11.0pt">3) No mention =
of automotive - assume that is intentional since not internet related?</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11.0pt"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11.0pt">Ethan.</p>
<div style=3D"font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px=
">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRpF520136" style=3D"direction: ltr;"><font face=3D"Tahoma" si=
ze=3D"2" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Thomas Watteyne [<a href=3D"mailto:=
watteyne@eecs.berkeley.edu">watteyne@eecs.berkeley.edu</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 26, 2014 11:02 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jouni Korhonen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Pascal Thubert (pthubert); <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">de=
tnet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">&#43;1
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Congratulations to all for the fantastic work, this will be a very goo=
d activity to have at the IETF.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>(very) minor typos:</div>
<div>-&nbsp;focusses -&gt;&nbsp;focuses</div>
<div>-&nbsp;IEEE801.1TSN -&gt;&nbsp;IEEE802.1TSN</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 3:57 AM, Jouni Korhonen =
<span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.=
korhonen@broadcom.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div>Thanks Pascal. Looks good to me now.&nbsp;<br>
<br>
<div>--&nbsp;</div>
<div>Jouni Korhonen</div>
<div>Broadcom</div>
<div><br>
</div>
(Sent from my mobile..)</div>
<div><br>
&quot;Pascal Thubert (pthubert)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pthubert@cisco.=
com" target=3D"_blank">pthubert@cisco.com</a>&gt; kirjoitti 26.9.2014 kello=
 13.15:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">detnet: &quot;determini=
stic networking&quot;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt; padding:0c=
m 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none; padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; col=
or:#1f497d">Background on deterministic networking
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">Operational Technology =
(OT) refers to industrial networks that are typically used for monitoring s=
ystems and supporting control loops, as well as movement
 detection systems for use in process control (i.e., process manufacturing)=
 and factory automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its differen=
t goals, OT has evolved in parallel but in a manner that is radically diffe=
rent from IT/ICT, focusing on highly
 secure, reliable and deterministic networks, with limited scalability over=
 a bounded area.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">The convergence of IT a=
nd OT technologies, also called the Industrial Internet, represents a major=
 evolution for both sides. The work has already started;
 in particular, the industrial automation space has been developing a numbe=
r of Ethernet-based replacements for existing digital control systems, ofte=
n not packet-based (=93fieldbus=94 technologies). These replacements are me=
ant to provide similar behavior as the
 incumbent protocols, and their common focus is to transport a fully charac=
terized flow over a well-controlled environment (i.e., a factory floor), wi=
th a bounded latency, extraordinarily low frame loss, and a very narrow jit=
ter. Examples of such protocols
 include PROFINET, ODVA Ethernet/IP, and EtherCAT.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">In parallel, the need f=
or determinism drove the formation of the Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standa=
rds effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the professional and
 home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical applications than s=
ome industrial networks, AVB networks share the requirement for extremely l=
ow packet loss rates and guaranteed finite latency and jitter. Other instan=
ces of deterministic networks have
 arisen as well, for instance in the context of vehicles and avionics, such=
 as the mission-critical =93Avionics Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet=94 (AFDX=
), which was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standards.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">The success of the 802.=
1 AVB standards in the professional studio environment and the needs of the=
 industrial networking markets have led to the IEEE 802.1
 AVB Task Group becoming the Time-Sensitive Networking (TSN) Task Group (TG=
), with a much-expanded constituency from the industrial and vehicular mark=
ets. Along with this expansion, the networks in consideration are becoming =
larger and structured, and require
 deterministic forwarding beyond the LAN boundaries. For instance, Industri=
al Automation segregates the network along the broad lines of the Purdue En=
terprise Reference Architecture (PERA), using different technologies at eac=
h level, and public infrastructures
 such as Electricity Automation require deterministic properties over the W=
ide Area. The realization is now coming that the convergence of IT and OT n=
etworks requires Layer-3, as well as Layer-2, capabilities.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">In order to serve this =
extended requirement, the IETF and the IEEE must collaborate and define an =
abstract model that can be applicable both at Layer-2 and
 Layer-3, and along segments of different technologies. With this new work,=
 a path may span, for instance, across a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges =
and then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE802.1 b=
ridges may be operating at Layer-2
 over Ethernet whereas the IP routers may be 6TiSCH nodes operating at Laye=
r-2 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.15.4e MAC. The proposed model should en=
able a fully scheduled operation orchestrated by a central controller, as w=
ell as a more distributed operation
 with probably lesser capabilities. In any fashion, the model should not co=
mpromise the ability of a network to keep carrying the sorts of traffic tha=
t is already carried today.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">Once the abstract model=
 is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the signaling elements to be=
 used to establish a path and the tagging elements to be
 used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. the IETF=
 will also need to specify the necessary protocols, or protocol additions, =
based on relevant IETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH, to implem=
ent the selected model. As a result
 of this work, it will be possible to establish an multi-hop path over the =
IP network, for a particular flow with precise timing and throughput requir=
ements, and carry this particular flow along the multi-hop path with such c=
haracteristics as low latency and
 ultra-low jitter, duplication and elimination of packets over non-congruen=
t paths for a higher delivery ratio, and/or zero congestion loss. Depending=
 on the network capabilities and on the current state, requests to establis=
h a path by na end-node or a network
 management entity may be granted or rejected, and an existing path may be =
moved or removed.&nbsp;&nbsp;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt; padding:0c=
m 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none; padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; col=
or:#1f497d">WG description<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">The deterministic netwo=
rking Working Group (detnet) will focus on the establishment and maintenanc=
e of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-3 routed
 segments. Though only Layer-3 operations will be specified by the WG as St=
andard Track documents, the group will collaborate with IEEE802.1TSN, which=
 designs the Layer-2 operations, to define a common paradigm, leveraging cr=
oss-participation and liaison work
 to maintain consistency. In that common paradigm, a number of elements suc=
h as the host operation should be agnostic to the organization of the multi=
-hop path.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">The considered network =
will initially be of a moderate size, composed of mixed Layer-2 / Layer-3 s=
ub-networks of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts. A
 single administrative domain such as a campus, a Small/Home office Network=
, or a controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to start with, and appr=
oaches that can be applied to the Internet at large will be favored.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">The Working Group will =
initially specify the protocol elements that are required to enable an mult=
i-hop path, and forward along that path with the deterministic
 properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jitter, and h=
igh reliability. The work will apply to and only to flows that can be chara=
cterized in a manner that allows the network to 1) reserve the appropriate =
resources for the flows in advance,
 and 2) release/reuse the resources when they are no more required. The wor=
k will cover the characterization of flows, the tagging of packets, the req=
uired forwarding behaviors, as well as the state that may need to be establ=
ished in intermediate nodes; it
 will not include end-to-end consideration such as transport protocols. Thi=
s work focusses on flows and does not depend on the path setup protocol tha=
t will be selected. The data models and flow tagging should be compatible w=
ith the similar work done at IEEE801.1TSN
 so they could be either directly usable at both layers, or mappable in an =
unambiguous fashion.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">The WG will interface w=
ith other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Internet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Tra=
nsport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Routing
 and Security areas. As the work progresses, some of the items initially co=
nsidered the deterministic networking WG may be transferred to those workin=
g groups as deemed appropriate by all parties.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">The WG will conclude th=
is round with the selection of a solution paradigm and suggest a base proto=
col that can be applied or extended.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt; padding:0c=
m 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none; padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; col=
or:#1f497d">Work Items&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">- Deliverables:<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;* An analys=
is of the needs in various deployment environments. 3-4 informational track=
 documents which could include factory automation, grid automation,
 avionics and audio/video studios.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A generic=
 problem statement including an analysis of the proposed solutions of the r=
elated work at IEEE802.1TSN.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A study o=
f generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the definition of Link-=
Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (as per RFC 7346).
 For instance, the deterministic technology needs to be consistent over a L=
ink- or a Realm-Local scope and achievable across technologies and layers o=
ver an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A solutio=
n taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explored, such as pe=
er-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), central controller
 (along the lines of SDN or PCE), connection to operations (application) co=
ntrollers, and mixed scenarios, in relation to the generic scoping of IP.<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A standar=
ds track data flow characterization model document for use in flow reservat=
ion protocol. The model should be independent from the protocol(s)
 that are selected from the solution taxonomy (e.g. an evolution of PCEP or=
 RSVP).
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A standar=
ds track flow identification document for use in packet forwarding, with th=
e specific application to at least classical IP, 6TiSCH track forwarding,
 and MPLS. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A standar=
ds track data model for the abstract state to be installed in the forwardin=
g device and the associated packet forwarding behavior.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp; The WG will conc=
lude this round with the selection of a paradigm and a base protocol that c=
an be applied or extended.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">Cheers,<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbs=
p;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">Pascal<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span>detnet mailing list</span><br>
<span><a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">detnet@ietf.org<=
/a></span><br>
<span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=3Dhttps://www.i=
etf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet&amp;k=3DUrRpYe6NZ%2F2y3fFcm1dpZA%3D%3D%0A&a=
mp;r=3DoIBsd6zVa3NydYM8E7NmP5Ygimfr0ucB13K%2FaVFvYLE%3D%0A&amp;m=3D5Z3Md9DQ=
uyTl9Lhy3ThHYKiHUoaudmhRwwCNgTWLQ5g%3D%0A&amp;s=3D6c7a1ae910ebfd83487812a7e=
05977b2f2776396e8aa2a5afdf53ba7813bb38b" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf=
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</div>
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</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
detnet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">detnet@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=3Dhttps://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/detnet&amp;k=3DUrRpYe6NZ%2F2y3fFcm1dpZA%3D%3D%0A&amp;r=
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9Lhy3ThHYKiHUoaudmhRwwCNgTWLQ5g%3D%0A&amp;s=3D6c7a1ae910ebfd83487812a7e0597=
7b2f2776396e8aa2a5afdf53ba7813bb38b" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org=
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Hi Pascal,

thanks for your work.

I think we can add a list after "vehicles" to clarify the intended networks=
.
It is helpful for a better understanding to explicitly list some vehicles,
e.g. "in the context of vehicles (including control networks in cars,
trains and buses)".

I also found one little typo:
"which was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standard" --> ARI*N*C 664

Cheers,
Marcel


> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
> To: "Grossman, Ethan A." <eagros@dolby.com>
> Cc: Thomas Watteyne <watteyne@eecs.berkeley.edu>, Jouni Korhonen <
> jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com>, "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>
> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 06:52:11 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal
>  Thanks Ethan!
>
>  We are actually listing "vehicles" in the proposed charter text to mean
> cars trains and buses control networks on top of avionics.
>
>  Should we have more emphasis?
>
> Pascal
>
> Le 26 sept. 2014 =C3=A0 20:18, Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com> a =
=C3=A9crit :
>
>   A couple more very tiny typos:
>
>  1) "Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to
> specify the signaling elements to be used to establish a path and the
> tagging elements to be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded
> along that path. the IETF" (--> The IETF).
>
>
>
> 2) "The Working Group will initially specify the protocol elements that
> are required to enable an multi-hop path" (--> a multi-hop path)
>
>
>
> 3) No mention of automotive - assume that is intentional since not
> internet related?
>
>
>  Ethan.
>
>

--001a11c2f9ac666f9705042ef753
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
>Hi Pascal,</div><div><br></div><div>thanks for your work.</div><div><br></=
div><div>I think we can add a list after &quot;vehicles&quot; to clarify th=
e intended networks.</div><div>It is helpful for a better understanding to =
explicitly list some vehicles, e.g. &quot;in the context of vehicles (inclu=
ding control networks in cars, trains and buses)&quot;.<br></div><div><br><=
/div><div>I also found one little typo:</div><div>&quot;which was designed =
as part of the <font color=3D"#ff0000">ARIC</font> 664 standard&quot; --&gt=
; ARI<span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color=3D"#ff00=
00"><b>N</b></font></span>C 664</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>=
Marcel</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,2=
04);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">---------- Forwarded message =
----------<br>From:=C2=A0&quot;Pascal Thubert (pthubert)&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:pthubert@cisco.com">pthubert@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>To:=C2=A0&quot=
;Grossman, Ethan A.&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eagros@dolby.com">eagros@do=
lby.com</a>&gt;<br>Cc:=C2=A0Thomas Watteyne &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:watteyne@=
eecs.berkeley.edu">watteyne@eecs.berkeley.edu</a>&gt;, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com">jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com</=
a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a>&quot; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>Date:=C2=
=A0Sat, 27 Sep 2014 06:52:11 +0000<br>Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Detnet] almost fin=
al charter proposal<br>



<div dir=3D"auto">
<div>Thanks Ethan!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We are actually listing &quot;vehicles&quot; in the proposed charter t=
ext to mean cars trains and buses control networks on top of avionics.=C2=
=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Should we have more emphasis?<br>
<br>
Pascal</div>
<div><br>
Le 26 sept. 2014 =C3=A0 20:18, Grossman, Ethan A. &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eag=
ros@dolby.com" target=3D"_blank">eagros@dolby.com</a>&gt; a =C3=A9crit=C2=
=A0:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:Tahoma;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:1=
0pt">A couple more very tiny typos:=C2=A0
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt">1) &quot;Once th=
e abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the signalin=
g elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elements to be us=
ed identify the flows that are to be
 forwarded along that path. <font color=3D"#ff0000">the IETF&quot; (--&gt; =
The IETF).=C2=A0</font></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt">=C2=A0<span styl=
e=3D"font-size:11pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt">2) &quot;The Wor=
king Group will initially specify the protocol elements that are required t=
o enable
<font color=3D"#ff0000">an multi-hop path&quot; (--&gt; a multi-hop path)</=
font></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt">=C2=A0</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt">3) No mention of=
 automotive - assume that is intentional since not internet related?</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt">Ethan.</p>
</div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a11c2f9ac666f9705042ef753--


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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Grossman, Ethan A." <eagros@dolby.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal
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Hello again Ethan:

Do you think that there is a chance to extend automotive requirements to in=
-board control systems as well as A/V? In understand that planes have a num=
ber of networks (at least 3) with different usages and safety requirements.=
 A generalizing sentence at the end of your text would help fit it in.

I also understand that there is an effort to converge some buses from speci=
fic technologies such as CAN (and/or interface them through gateway) onto m=
ore generic technologies such as 100Mbps Ethernet over unshielded twisted p=
airs (UTP).
http://www.automotive-eetimes.com/en/ip-and-ethernet-in-motor-vehicles.html=
?cmp_id=3D71&news_id=3D222902889

Shall we need determinism in the Ethernet side? Shall we need deterministic=
 properties across the CAN/Ethernet gateway? Shall we need determinism to t=
he garage infrastructure to perform tests and diagnostics? Is there a case =
for deterministic wireless in such an environment dominated by metallic str=
uctures?

I think we need a problem statement draft for automotive alone. Would you b=
e willing to lead that effort?

Cheers,

Pascal

From: Grossman, Ethan A. [mailto:eagros@dolby.com]
Sent: samedi 27 septembre 2014 10:16
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
Cc: Thomas Watteyne; Jouni Korhonen; detnet@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal

Hi Pascal (A friend of Norm's is a friend of mine ;-)

On the one hand my take is that at least half a sentence should be devoted,=
 given the depth of contribution of the Automotive community to the AVB sta=
ndards, and that it is a hot topic in that industry:

"With the explosion of demand for connectivity and multimedia in the automo=
bile, the need for standards-based A/V networking that can be easily deploy=
ed has been growing. Ethernet AVB (Audio Video Bridging) has become one of =
the hottest topics in automotive connectivity. It is finding application in=
 all elements of the car from head units, to rear seat entertainment module=
s, to amplifiers and camera modules. Furthermore, existing vehicle control =
networks such as the LIN, CAN and FlexRay standards are not designed to cov=
er these increasing demands in terms of bandwidth and scalability that we s=
ee with various kinds of Driver Assistance Systems (DAS)." (http://www.xzad=
ium.com/blog/avb-emerging-technology-in-audio-video-transmission)

But on the other hand, Automotive AVB systems tend to be closed systems, an=
d thus perhaps are not as "interesting" to the IETF crowd (I have no idea i=
f this is true). Anyway if one feels it is worthwhile to add a few more wor=
ds, perhaps the above could provide some ideas.

Best,
Ethan.

________________________________
From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [pthubert@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 11:52 PM
To: Grossman, Ethan A.
Cc: Thomas Watteyne; Jouni Korhonen; detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org=
>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal
Thanks Ethan!

We are actually listing "vehicles" in the proposed charter text to mean car=
s trains and buses control networks on top of avionics.

Should we have more emphasis?

Pascal

Le 26 sept. 2014 =E0 20:18, Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com<mailto:eag=
ros@dolby.com>> a =E9crit :
A couple more very tiny typos:


1) "Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify t=
he signaling elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elemen=
ts to be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. =
the IETF" (--> The IETF).



2) "The Working Group will initially specify the protocol elements that are=
 required to enable an multi-hop path" (--> a multi-hop path)



3) No mention of automotive - assume that is intentional since not internet=
 related?



Ethan.

________________________________
From: Thomas Watteyne [watteyne@eecs.berkeley.edu<mailto:watteyne@eecs.berk=
eley.edu>]
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 11:02 AM
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert); detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal
+1

Congratulations to all for the fantastic work, this will be a very good act=
ivity to have at the IETF.

(very) minor typos:
- focusses -> focuses
- IEEE801.1TSN -> IEEE802.1TSN

On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 3:57 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen@broadcom.co=
m<mailto:jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com>> wrote:
Thanks Pascal. Looks good to me now.
--
Jouni Korhonen
Broadcom

(Sent from my mobile..)

"Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com<mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>>=
 kirjoitti 26.9.2014 kello 13.15:
detnet: "deterministic networking"

Background on deterministic networking


Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typicall=
y used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as well as move=
ment detection systems for use in process control (i.e., process manufactur=
ing) and factory automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its diff=
erent goals, OT has evolved in parallel but in a manner that is radically d=
ifferent from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and deterministic=
 networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.

The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Inter=
net, represents a major evolution for both sides. The work has already star=
ted; in particular, the industrial automation space has been developing a n=
umber of Ethernet-based replacements for existing digital control systems, =
often not packet-based ("fieldbus" technologies). These replacements are me=
ant to provide similar behavior as the incumbent protocols, and their commo=
n focus is to transport a fully characterized flow over a well-controlled e=
nvironment (i.e., a factory floor), with a bounded latency, extraordinarily=
 low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter. Examples of such protocols inclu=
de PROFINET, ODVA Ethernet/IP, and EtherCAT.

In parallel, the need for determinism drove the formation of the Audio/Vide=
o Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the profession=
al and home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical applications =
than some industrial networks, AVB networks share the requirement for extre=
mely low packet loss rates and guaranteed finite latency and jitter. Other =
instances of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for instance in th=
e context of vehicles and avionics, such as the mission-critical "Avionics =
Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet" (AFDX), which was designed as part of the AR=
IC 664 standards.

The success of the 802.1 AVB standards in the professional studio environme=
nt and the needs of the industrial networking markets have led to the IEEE =
802.1 AVB Task Group becoming the Time-Sensitive Networking (TSN) Task Grou=
p (TG), with a much-expanded constituency from the industrial and vehicular=
 markets. Along with this expansion, the networks in consideration are beco=
ming larger and structured, and require deterministic forwarding beyond the=
 LAN boundaries. For instance, Industrial Automation segregates the network=
 along the broad lines of the Purdue Enterprise Reference Architecture (PER=
A), using different technologies at each level, and public infrastructures =
such as Electricity Automation require deterministic properties over the Wi=
de Area. The realization is now coming that the convergence of IT and OT ne=
tworks requires Layer-3, as well as Layer-2, capabilities.

In order to serve this extended requirement, the IETF and the IEEE must col=
laborate and define an abstract model that can be applicable both at Layer-=
2 and Layer-3, and along segments of different technologies. With this new =
work, a path may span, for instance, across a (limited) number of 802.1 bri=
dges and then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE80=
2.1 bridges may be operating at Layer-2 over Ethernet whereas the IP router=
s may be 6TiSCH nodes operating at Layer-2 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.=
15.4e MAC. The proposed model should enable a fully scheduled operation orc=
hestrated by a central controller, as well as a more distributed operation =
with probably lesser capabilities. In any fashion, the model should not com=
promise the ability of a network to keep carrying the sorts of traffic that=
 is already carried today.

Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the s=
ignaling elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elements t=
o be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. the =
IETF will also need to specify the necessary protocols, or protocol additio=
ns, based on relevant IETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH, to im=
plement the selected model. As a result of this work, it will be possible t=
o establish an multi-hop path over the IP network, for a particular flow wi=
th precise timing and throughput requirements, and carry this particular fl=
ow along the multi-hop path with such characteristics as low latency and ul=
tra-low jitter, duplication and elimination of packets over non-congruent p=
aths for a higher delivery ratio, and/or zero congestion loss. Depending on=
 the network capabilities and on the current state, requests to establish a=
 path by na end-node or a network management entity may be granted or rejec=
ted, and an existing path may be moved or removed.


WG description


The deterministic networking Working Group (detnet) will focus on the estab=
lishment and maintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-=
3 routed segments. Though only Layer-3 operations will be specified by the =
WG as Standard Track documents, the group will collaborate with IEEE802.1TS=
N, which designs the Layer-2 operations, to define a common paradigm, lever=
aging cross-participation and liaison work to maintain consistency. In that=
 common paradigm, a number of elements such as the host operation should be=
 agnostic to the organization of the multi-hop path.

The considered network will initially be of a moderate size, composed of mi=
xed Layer-2 / Layer-3 sub-networks of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts=
. A single administrative domain such as a campus, a Small/Home office Netw=
ork, or a controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to start with, and a=
pproaches that can be applied to the Internet at large will be favored.
The Working Group will initially specify the protocol elements that are req=
uired to enable an multi-hop path, and forward along that path with the det=
erministic properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jit=
ter, and high reliability. The work will apply to and only to flows that ca=
n be characterized in a manner that allows the network to 1) reserve the ap=
propriate resources for the flows in advance, and 2) release/reuse the reso=
urces when they are no more required. The work will cover the characterizat=
ion of flows, the tagging of packets, the required forwarding behaviors, as=
 well as the state that may need to be established in intermediate nodes; i=
t will not include end-to-end consideration such as transport protocols. Th=
is work focusses on flows and does not depend on the path setup protocol th=
at will be selected. The data models and flow tagging should be compatible =
with the similar work done at IEEE801.1TSN so they could be either directly=
 usable at both layers, or mappable in an unambiguous fashion.
The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Inte=
rnet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Rout=
ing and Security areas. As the work progresses, some of the items initially=
 considered the deterministic networking WG may be transferred to those wor=
king groups as deemed appropriate by all parties.

The WG will conclude this round with the selection of a solution paradigm a=
nd suggest a base protocol that can be applied or extended.
Work Items

- Deliverables:

  * An analysis of the needs in various deployment environments. 3-4 inform=
ational track documents which could include factory automation, grid automa=
tion, avionics and audio/video studios.

  * A generic problem statement including an analysis of the proposed solut=
ions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN.

  * A study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the defini=
tion of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (as per RF=
C 7346). For instance, the deterministic technology needs to be consistent =
over a Link- or a Realm-Local scope and achievable across technologies and =
layers over an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.

  * A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explore=
d, such as peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), centra=
l controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), connection to operations (app=
lication) controllers, and mixed scenarios, in relation to the generic scop=
ing of IP.
  * A standards track data flow characterization model document for use in =
flow reservation protocol. The model should be independent from the protoco=
l(s) that are selected from the solution taxonomy (e.g. an evolution of PCE=
P or RSVP).

  * A standards track flow identification document for use in packet forwar=
ding, with the specific application to at least classical IP, 6TiSCH track =
forwarding, and MPLS.

  * A standards track data model for the abstract state to be installed in =
the forwarding device and the associated packet forwarding behavior.

  The WG will conclude this round with the selection of a paradigm and a ba=
se protocol that can be applied or extended.


Cheers,

Pascal
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hello again Ethan:<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Do you think that there i=
s a chance to extend automotive requirements to in-board control systems as=
 well as A/V? In understand that planes have a number of
 networks (at least 3) with different usages and safety requirements. A gen=
eralizing sentence at the end of your text would help fit it in.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I also understand that th=
ere is an effort to converge some buses from specific technologies such as =
CAN (and/or interface them through gateway) onto more generic
 technologies such as 100Mbps Ethernet over unshielded twisted pairs (UTP).=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><a href=3D"http://www.aut=
omotive-eetimes.com/en/ip-and-ethernet-in-motor-vehicles.html?cmp_id=3D71&a=
mp;news_id=3D222902889">http://www.automotive-eetimes.com/en/ip-and-etherne=
t-in-motor-vehicles.html?cmp_id=3D71&amp;news_id=3D222902889</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Shall we need determinism=
 in the Ethernet side? Shall we need deterministic properties across the CA=
N/Ethernet gateway? Shall we need determinism to the garage
 infrastructure to perform tests and diagnostics? Is there a case for deter=
ministic wireless in such an environment dominated by metallic structures?<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I think we need a problem=
 statement draft for automotive alone. Would you be willing to lead that ef=
fort?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Pascal<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Grossman=
, Ethan A. [mailto:eagros@dolby.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> samedi 27 septembre 2014 10:16<br>
<b>To:</b> Pascal Thubert (pthubert)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Thomas Watteyne; Jouni Korhonen; detnet@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Hi Pascal (A friend of Norm'=
s is a friend of mine ;-)
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">On the one hand my take is t=
hat at least half a sentence should be devoted, given the depth of contribu=
tion of the Automotive community to the AVB standards, and
 that it is a hot topic in that industry: &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&quot;With the explosion of =
demand for connectivity and multimedia in the automobile, the need for stan=
dards-based A/V networking that can be easily deployed has been
 growing. Ethernet AVB (Audio Video Bridging) has become one of the hottest=
 topics in automotive connectivity. It is finding application in all elemen=
ts of the car from head units, to rear seat entertainment modules, to ampli=
fiers and camera modules. Furthermore,
 existing vehicle control networks such as the LIN, CAN and FlexRay standar=
ds are not designed to cover these increasing demands in terms of bandwidth=
 and scalability that we see with various kinds of Driver Assistance System=
s (DAS).&quot; (<a href=3D"http://www.xzadium.com/blog/avb-emerging-technol=
ogy-in-audio-video-transmission" target=3D"_blank">http://www.xzadium.com/b=
log/avb-emerging-technology-in-audio-video-transmission</a>)<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">But on the other hand, Autom=
otive AVB systems tend to be closed systems, and thus perhaps are not as &q=
uot;interesting&quot; to the IETF crowd (I have no idea if this is
 true). Anyway if one feels it is worthwhile to add a few more words, perha=
ps the above could provide some ideas.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Ethan.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 style=3D"color:black">
<hr size=3D"3" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"divRpF106326">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:b=
lack">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tah=
oma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"> Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [p=
thubert@cisco.com]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 26, 2014 11:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Grossman, Ethan A.<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Thomas Watteyne; Jouni Korhonen; <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.o=
rg">detnet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Thanks Ethan!<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">We are actually listing =
&quot;vehicles&quot; in the proposed charter text to mean cars trains and b=
uses control networks on top of avionics.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Should we have more emph=
asis?<br>
<br>
</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"color:black">Pascal<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"FR" sty=
le=3D"color:black"><br>
Le 26 sept. 2014 =E0 20:18, Grossman, Ethan A. &lt;</span><span style=3D"co=
lor:black"><a href=3D"mailto:eagros@dolby.com" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=
=3D"FR">eagros@dolby.com</span></a></span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"color:=
black">&gt; a =E9crit&nbsp;:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">A couple more very tiny typo=
s:&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">1) &=
quot;Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify =
the signaling elements to be used to establish a path and the
 tagging elements to be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded al=
ong that path.
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:red">the IETF&quot; (--&gt; The IETF).&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans=
-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">2) &=
quot;The Working Group will initially specify the protocol elements that ar=
e required to enable
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:red">an multi-hop path&quot; (--&gt; a multi-hop p=
ath)</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">3) N=
o mention of automotive - assume that is intentional since not internet rel=
ated?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Etha=
n.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 style=3D"color:black">
<hr size=3D"3" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"divRpF520136">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:b=
lack">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tah=
oma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"> Thomas Watteyne [<a href=3D"=
mailto:watteyne@eecs.berkeley.edu" target=3D"_blank">watteyne@eecs.berkeley=
.edu</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 26, 2014 11:02 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jouni Korhonen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Pascal Thubert (pthubert); <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">
detnet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&#43;1 <o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Congratulations to all f=
or the fantastic work, this will be a very good activity to have at the IET=
F.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">(very) minor typos:<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">-&nbsp;focusses -&gt;&nb=
sp;focuses<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">-&nbsp;IEEE801.1TSN -&gt=
;&nbsp;IEEE802.1TSN<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at =
3:57 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com" =
target=3D"_blank">jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"color:=
black">Thanks Pascal. Looks good to me now.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">--&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Jouni Korhonen<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Broadcom<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">(Sent from my mobile..)<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"color:=
black"><br>
&quot;Pascal Thubert (pthubert)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pthubert@cisco.=
com" target=3D"_blank">pthubert@cisco.com</a>&gt; kirjoitti 26.9.2014 kello=
 13.15:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">detnet: &quot;deterministic networking&=
quot;
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Background on deterministic networking
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Operational Technology (OT) refers to i=
ndustrial networks that are typically used for monitoring
 systems and supporting control loops, as well as movement detection system=
s for use in process control (i.e., process manufacturing) and factory auto=
mation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its different goals, OT has e=
volved in parallel but in a manner
 that is radically different from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliab=
le and deterministic networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area=
.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The convergence of IT and OT technologi=
es, also called the Industrial Internet, represents a major
 evolution for both sides. The work has already started; in particular, the=
 industrial automation space has been developing a number of Ethernet-based=
 replacements for existing digital control systems, often not packet-based =
(&#8220;fieldbus&#8221; technologies). These
 replacements are meant to provide similar behavior as the incumbent protoc=
ols, and their common focus is to transport a fully characterized flow over=
 a well-controlled environment (i.e., a factory floor), with a bounded late=
ncy, extraordinarily low frame loss,
 and a very narrow jitter. Examples of such protocols include PROFINET, ODV=
A Ethernet/IP, and EtherCAT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In parallel, the need for determinism d=
rove the formation of the Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standards
 effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the professional and home audio/video ma=
rkets. While aimed at less critical applications than some industrial netwo=
rks, AVB networks share the requirement for extremely low packet loss rates=
 and guaranteed finite latency and
 jitter. Other instances of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for=
 instance in the context of vehicles and avionics, such as the mission-crit=
ical &#8220;Avionics Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet&#8221; (AFDX), which was=
 designed as part of the ARIC 664 standards.
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The success of the 802.1 AVB standards =
in the professional studio environment and the needs of the
 industrial networking markets have led to the IEEE 802.1 AVB Task Group be=
coming the Time-Sensitive Networking (TSN) Task Group (TG), with a much-exp=
anded constituency from the industrial and vehicular markets. Along with th=
is expansion, the networks in consideration
 are becoming larger and structured, and require deterministic forwarding b=
eyond the LAN boundaries. For instance, Industrial Automation segregates th=
e network along the broad lines of the Purdue Enterprise Reference Architec=
ture (PERA), using different technologies
 at each level, and public infrastructures such as Electricity Automation r=
equire deterministic properties over the Wide Area. The realization is now =
coming that the convergence of IT and OT networks requires Layer-3, as well=
 as Layer-2, capabilities.
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In order to serve this extended require=
ment, the IETF and the IEEE must collaborate and define an
 abstract model that can be applicable both at Layer-2 and Layer-3, and alo=
ng segments of different technologies. With this new work, a path may span,=
 for instance, across a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges and then a (limit=
ed) number of IP routers. In that
 example, the IEEE802.1 bridges may be operating at Layer-2 over Ethernet w=
hereas the IP routers may be 6TiSCH nodes operating at Layer-2 and/or Layer=
-3 over the IEEE802.15.4e MAC. The proposed model should enable a fully sch=
eduled operation orchestrated by
 a central controller, as well as a more distributed operation with probabl=
y lesser capabilities. In any fashion, the model should not compromise the =
ability of a network to keep carrying the sorts of traffic that is already =
carried today.
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Once the abstract model is agreed upon,=
 the IETF will need to specify the signaling elements to be
 used to establish a path and the tagging elements to be used identify the =
flows that are to be forwarded along that path. the IETF will also need to =
specify the necessary protocols, or protocol additions, based on relevant I=
ETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS
 and 6TiSCH, to implement the selected model. As a result of this work, it =
will be possible to establish an multi-hop path over the IP network, for a =
particular flow with precise timing and throughput requirements, and carry =
this particular flow along the multi-hop
 path with such characteristics as low latency and ultra-low jitter, duplic=
ation and elimination of packets over non-congruent paths for a higher deli=
very ratio, and/or zero congestion loss. Depending on the network capabilit=
ies and on the current state, requests
 to establish a path by na end-node or a network management entity may be g=
ranted or rejected, and an existing path may be moved or removed.&nbsp;&nbs=
p;
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">WG description</span><span style=3D"col=
or:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The deterministic networking Working Gr=
oup (detnet) will focus on the establishment and maintenance
 of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-3 routed segments. Thoug=
h only Layer-3 operations will be specified by the WG as Standard Track doc=
uments, the group will collaborate with IEEE802.1TSN, which designs the Lay=
er-2 operations, to define a common
 paradigm, leveraging cross-participation and liaison work to maintain cons=
istency. In that common paradigm, a number of elements such as the host ope=
ration should be agnostic to the organization of the multi-hop path.
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The considered network will initially b=
e of a moderate size, composed of mixed Layer-2 / Layer-3
 sub-networks of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts. A single administra=
tive domain such as a campus, a Small/Home office Network, or a controlled =
Wide Area Network will be assumed to start with, and approaches that can be=
 applied to the Internet at large
 will be favored.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The Working Group will initially specif=
y the protocol elements that are required to enable an multi-hop
 path, and forward along that path with the deterministic properties of con=
trolled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jitter, and high reliability. T=
he work will apply to and only to flows that can be characterized in a mann=
er that allows the network to 1)
 reserve the appropriate resources for the flows in advance, and 2) release=
/reuse the resources when they are no more required. The work will cover th=
e characterization of flows, the tagging of packets, the required forwardin=
g behaviors, as well as the state
 that may need to be established in intermediate nodes; it will not include=
 end-to-end consideration such as transport protocols. This work focusses o=
n flows and does not depend on the path setup protocol that will be selecte=
d. The data models and flow tagging
 should be compatible with the similar work done at IEEE801.1TSN so they co=
uld be either directly usable at both layers, or mappable in an unambiguous=
 fashion.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The WG will interface with other approp=
riate groups in the IETF in the Internet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport
 (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Routing and Security areas. As th=
e work progresses, some of the items initially considered the deterministic=
 networking WG may be transferred to those working groups as deemed appropr=
iate by all parties.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The WG will conclude this round with th=
e selection of a solution paradigm and suggest a base protocol
 that can be applied or extended.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Work Items&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">- Deliverables:</span><span style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* An analysis of the needs =
in various deployment environments. 3-4 informational track documents
 which could include factory automation, grid automation, avionics and audi=
o/video studios.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A generic problem stateme=
nt including an analysis of the proposed solutions of the related work
 at IEEE802.1TSN.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A study of generic scopin=
g. For IPv6, the study will include the definition of Link-Local, Realm-Loc=
al
 and Admin-Local scoped operation (as per RFC 7346). For instance, the dete=
rministic technology needs to be consistent over a Link- or a Realm-Local s=
cope and achievable across technologies and layers over an Admin-Local scop=
e. Similar scoping will be studied
 for IPv4.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A solution taxonomy, wher=
e potential solution paradigms will be explored, such as peer-to-peer
 protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), central controller (along the=
 lines of SDN or PCE), connection to operations (application) controllers, =
and mixed scenarios, in relation to the generic scoping of IP.</span><span =
style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A standards track data fl=
ow characterization model document for use in flow reservation protocol.
 The model should be independent from the protocol(s) that are selected fro=
m the solution taxonomy (e.g. an evolution of PCEP or RSVP).
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color=
:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A standards track flow id=
entification document for use in packet forwarding, with the specific
 application to at least classical IP, 6TiSCH track forwarding, and MPLS. <=
/span>
<span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color=
:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A standards track data mo=
del for the abstract state to be installed in the forwarding device
 and the associated packet forwarding behavior. </span><span style=3D"color=
:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp; The WG will conclude this round =
with the selection of a paradigm and a base protocol that can be
 applied or extended. </span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Cheers,</span><span style=3D"color:blac=
k"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Pascal</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">________________________=
_______________________<br>
detnet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">detnet@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=3Dhttps://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/detnet&amp;k=3DUrRpYe6NZ%2F2y3fFcm1dpZA%3D%3D%0A&amp;r=
=3DoIBsd6zVa3NydYM8E7NmP5Ygimfr0ucB13K%2FaVFvYLE%3D%0A&amp;m=3D5Z3Md9DQuyTl=
9Lhy3ThHYKiHUoaudmhRwwCNgTWLQ5g%3D%0A&amp;s=3D6c7a1ae910ebfd83487812a7e0597=
7b2f2776396e8aa2a5afdf53ba7813bb38b" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/detnet</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"color:=
black"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
detnet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">detnet@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=3Dhttps://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/detnet&amp;k=3DUrRpYe6NZ%2F2y3fFcm1dpZA%3D%3D%0A&amp;r=
=3DoIBsd6zVa3NydYM8E7NmP5Ygimfr0ucB13K%2FaVFvYLE%3D%0A&amp;m=3D5Z3Md9DQuyTl=
9Lhy3ThHYKiHUoaudmhRwwCNgTWLQ5g%3D%0A&amp;s=3D6c7a1ae910ebfd83487812a7e0597=
7b2f2776396e8aa2a5afdf53ba7813bb38b" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/detnet</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DE3AD1xmbrcdx01ciscoc_--


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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: Marcel Kiessling <m.kiessling.de@ieee.org>, "Ethan Hoewisch (ehoewisc)" <ehoewisc@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: detnet Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] detnet Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
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From: "Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)" <pwetterw@cisco.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, Marcel Kiessling <m.kiessling.de@ieee.org>, "Ethan Hoewisch (ehoewisc)" <ehoewisc@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] detnet Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
Thread-Index: AQHP28asD2RzT93Lmkm6Mhnvzx7GPw==
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 09:20:55 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] detnet Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
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--_000_D04EEE5848A17pwetterwciscocom_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

Following the AFDX effort, SAE has started works to endorse Deterministic n=
etworking.


Standards development/revision activities


=B7       AS6003  TTP Communication Protocol

=B7       AS6066  TTP Physical Layer

=B7       AS6802  Time-Triggered Ethernet



Not sure you want to mention it or not.

Patrick

From: Pascal THUBERT <pthubert@cisco.com<mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>>
Date: Monday 29 September 2014 10:17
To: Marcel Kiessling <m.kiessling.de@ieee.org<mailto:m.kiessling.de@ieee.or=
g>>, "Ethan Hoewisch (ehoewisc)" <ehoewisc@cisco.com<mailto:ehoewisc@cisco.=
com>>
Cc: "detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>" <detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detne=
t@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] detnet Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40

Dear Ethan and Marcel:

I tried to include both of your suggestions and generalize a bit as I sugge=
sted to Ethan.

This got me with the following text for the background. Is that covering su=
fficient space now?

Background on deterministic networking


Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typicall=
y used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as well as move=
ment detection systems for use in process control (i.e., process manufactur=
ing) and factory automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its diff=
erent goals, OT has evolved in parallel but in a manner that is radically d=
ifferent from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and deterministic=
 networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.

The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Inter=
net, represents a major evolution for both sides. The work has already star=
ted; in particular, the industrial automation space has been developing a n=
umber of Ethernet-based replacements for existing digital control systems, =
often not packet-based (=93fieldbus=94 technologies). These replacements ar=
e meant to provide similar behavior as the incumbent protocols, and their c=
ommon focus is to transport a fully characterized flow over a well-controll=
ed environment (i.e., a factory floor), with a bounded latency, extraordina=
rily low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter. Examples of such protocols i=
nclude PROFINET, ODVA Ethernet/IP, and EtherCAT.
In parallel, the need for determinism in professional and home audio/video =
markets drove the formation of the Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standards eff=
ort of IEEE 802.1. With the explosion of demand for connectivity and multim=
edia in transportation in general, the Ethernet AVB technology has become o=
ne of the hottest topics, in particular in the automotive connectivity. It =
is finding application in all elements of the vehicle from head units, to r=
ear seat entertainment modules, to amplifiers and camera modules. While aim=
ed at less critical applications than some industrial networks, AVB network=
s share the requirement for extremely low packet loss rates and guaranteed =
finite latency and jitter.

Other instances of in-vehicle deterministic networks have arisen as well fo=
r control networks in cars, trains and buses, as well as and avionics, with=
, for instance, the mission-critical =93Avionics Full-Duplex Switched Ether=
net=94 (AFDX) that was designed as part of the ARINC 664 standards. Existin=
g automotive control networks such as the LIN, CAN and FlexRay standards we=
re not designed to cover these increasing demands in terms of bandwidth and=
 scalability that we see with various kinds of Driver Assistance Systems (D=
AS) and new multiplexing technologies based on Ethernet are now getting tra=
ction.

The generalization of the needs for more deterministic networks have led to=
 the IEEE 802.1 AVB Task Group becoming the Time-Sensitive Networking (TSN)=
 Task Group (TG), with a much-expanded constituency from the industrial and=
 vehicular markets. Along with this expansion, the networks in consideratio=
n are becoming larger and structured, requiring deterministic forwarding be=
yond the LAN boundaries. For instance, Industrial Automation segregates the=
 network along the broad lines of the Purdue Enterprise Reference Architect=
ure (PERA), using different technologies at each level, and public infrastr=
uctures such as Electricity Automation require deterministic properties ove=
r the Wide Area. The realization is now coming that the convergence of IT a=
nd OT networks requires Layer-3, as well as Layer-2, capabilities.

In order to serve this extended requirement, the IETF and the IEEE must col=
laborate and define an abstract model that can be applicable both at Layer-=
2 and Layer-3, and along segments of different technologies. With this new =
work, a path may span, for instance, across a (limited) number of 802.1 bri=
dges and then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE80=
2.1 bridges may be operating at Layer-2 over Ethernet whereas the IP router=
s may be 6TiSCH nodes operating at Layer-2 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.=
15.4e MAC. The proposed model should enable a fully scheduled operation orc=
hestrated by a central controller, as well as a more distributed operation =
with probably lesser capabilities. In any fashion, the model should not com=
promise the ability of a network to keep carrying the sorts of traffic that=
 is already carried today.

Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the s=
ignaling elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elements t=
o be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. The =
IETF will also need to specify the necessary protocols, or protocol additio=
ns, based on relevant IETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH, to im=
plement the selected model. As a result of this work, it will be possible t=
o establish a multi-hop path over the IP network, for a particular flow wit=
h precise timing and throughput requirements, and carry this particular flo=
w along the multi-hop path with such characteristics as low latency and ult=
ra-low jitter, duplication and elimination of packets over non-congruent pa=
ths for a higher delivery ratio, and/or zero congestion loss. Depending on =
the network capabilities and on the current state, requests to establish a =
path by an end-node or a network management entity may be granted or reject=
ed, and an existing path may be moved or removed.



Please note that I am using http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/DetNet=
 to store a copy of the WIP charter but ultimately the two documents would =
fork.
I maintain a public copy here : https://bitbucket.org/pthubert/detnet/raw/m=
aster/detnet%20charter.txt that you can probably edit (to be validated).

Cheers,

Pascal

From: Marcel Kiessling [mailto:m.kiessling.de@ieee.org]
Sent: lundi 29 septembre 2014 09:11
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: detnet Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40

Hi Pascal,

thanks for your work.

I think we can add a list after "vehicles" to clarify the intended networks=
.
It is helpful for a better understanding to explicitly list some vehicles, =
e.g. "in the context of vehicles (including control networks in cars, train=
s and buses)".

I also found one little typo:
"which was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standard" --> ARINC 664

Cheers,
Marcel

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com<mailto:pthubert@cisco=
.com>>
To: "Grossman, Ethan A." <eagros@dolby.com<mailto:eagros@dolby.com>>
Cc: Thomas Watteyne <watteyne@eecs.berkeley.edu<mailto:watteyne@eecs.berkel=
ey.edu>>, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com<mailto:jouni.korhonen=
@broadcom.com>>, "detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>" <detnet@ietf.org=
<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 06:52:11 +0000
Subject: Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal
Thanks Ethan!

We are actually listing "vehicles" in the proposed charter text to mean car=
s trains and buses control networks on top of avionics.

Should we have more emphasis?

Pascal

Le 26 sept. 2014 =E0 20:18, Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com<mailto:eag=
ros@dolby.com>> a =E9crit :
A couple more very tiny typos:


1) "Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify t=
he signaling elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elemen=
ts to be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. =
the IETF" (--> The IETF).



2) "The Working Group will initially specify the protocol elements that are=
 required to enable an multi-hop path" (--> a multi-hop path)



3) No mention of automotive - assume that is intentional since not internet=
 related?



Ethan.


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</head>
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e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
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<div>Hi all,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Following the AFDX effort, SAE has started works to endorse Determinis=
tic networking.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
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  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" SemiHidden=3D"false"
   UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" SemiHidden=3D"false"
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  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" SemiHidden=3D"false"
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  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" SemiHidden=3D"false"
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  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" SemiHidden=3D"false"
   UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Light List Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" SemiHidden=3D"false"
   UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Light Grid Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" SemiHidden=3D"false"
   UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" SemiHidden=3D"false"
   UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" SemiHidden=3D"false"
   UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" SemiHidden=3D"false"
   UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium List 2 Accent 6"/>
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   UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1 Accent 6"/>
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   UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2 Accent 6"/>
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   UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" Name=3D"Dark List Accent 6"/>
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   UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"Intense Emphasis"/>
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   UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"Intense Reference"/>
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   UnhideWhenUsed=3D"false" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"Book Title"/>
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  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D=
"TOC Heading"/>
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</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]>
<style>
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table.MsoNormalTable
	{mso-style-name:"Table Normal";
	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;
	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;
	mso-style-noshow:yes;
	mso-style-priority:99;
	mso-style-parent:"";
	mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;
	mso-para-margin:0cm;
	mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;
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	font-size:10.0pt;
	font-family:Calibri;}
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<![endif]--><!--StartFragment-->
<p class=3D"p100040sub">Standards development/revision activities<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<br>
<p class=3D"p100040bulletCxSpMiddle"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style=
=3D"">=B7<span style=3D"font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: '=
Times New Roman';">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><!--[endif]-->AS6003&nbsp; <span style=3D"color:#333333">TTP =
Communication Protocol</span></p>
<p class=3D"p100040bulletCxSpMiddle"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style=
=3D"">=B7<span style=3D"font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: '=
Times New Roman';">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><!--[endif]-->AS6066&nbsp; <span style=3D"color:#333333">TTP =
Physical Layer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"p100040bulletCxSpLast"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style=3D"=
">=B7<span style=3D"font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman';">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><!--[endif]-->AS6802&nbsp; <span style=3D"color:#333333">Time=
-Triggered Ethernet</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"p100040bulletCxSpLast"><br>
</p>
<p class=3D"p100040bulletCxSpLast"><br>
</p>
<!--EndFragment--></div>
<div>Not sure you want to mention it or not.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Patrick</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Pascal THUBERT &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:pthubert@cisco.com">pthubert@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Monday 29 September 2014 10:1=
7<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Marcel Kiessling &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:m.kiessling.de@ieee.org">m.kiessling.de@ieee.org</a>&gt;, &quot;Eth=
an Hoewisch (ehoewisc)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ehoewisc@cisco.com">ehoe=
wisc@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@=
ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">=
detnet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Detnet] detnet Digest=
, Vol 2, Issue 40<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dear Ethan and Marcel:<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I tried to include both of your sug=
gestions and generalize a bit as I suggested to Ethan.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">This got me with the following text=
 for the background. Is that covering sufficient space now?<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">B=
ackground on deterministic networking
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Operational Technology (OT) refers =
to industrial networks that are typically used for monitoring systems and s=
upporting control loops, as well as
 movement detection systems for use in process control (i.e., process manuf=
acturing) and factory automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its=
 different goals, OT has evolved in parallel but in a manner that is radica=
lly different from IT/ICT, focusing
 on highly secure, reliable and deterministic networks, with limited scalab=
ility over a bounded area.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The convergence of IT and OT techno=
logies, also called the Industrial Internet, represents a major evolution f=
or both sides. The work has already
 started; in particular, the industrial automation space has been developin=
g a number of Ethernet-based replacements for existing digital control syst=
ems, often not packet-based (=93fieldbus=94 technologies). These replacemen=
ts are meant to provide similar behavior
 as the incumbent protocols, and their common focus is to transport a fully=
 characterized flow over a well-controlled environment (i.e., a factory flo=
or), with a bounded latency, extraordinarily low frame loss, and a very nar=
row jitter. Examples of such protocols
 include PROFINET, ODVA Ethernet/IP, and EtherCAT.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">In parallel, the need for determini=
sm in professional and home audio/video markets drove the formation of the =
Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standards
 effort of IEEE 802.1. With the explosion of demand for connectivity and mu=
ltimedia in transportation in general, the Ethernet AVB technology has beco=
me one of the hottest topics, in particular in the automotive connectivity.=
 It is finding application in all
 elements of the vehicle from head units, to rear seat entertainment module=
s, to amplifiers and camera modules. While aimed at less critical applicati=
ons than some industrial networks, AVB networks share the requirement for e=
xtremely low packet loss rates and
 guaranteed finite latency and jitter. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Other instances of in-vehicle deter=
ministic networks have arisen as well for control networks in cars, trains =
and buses, as well as and avionics,
 with, for instance, the mission-critical =93Avionics Full-Duplex Switched =
Ethernet=94 (AFDX) that was designed as part of the ARINC 664 standards. Ex=
isting automotive control networks such as the LIN, CAN and FlexRay standar=
ds were not designed to cover these
 increasing demands in terms of bandwidth and scalability that we see with =
various kinds of Driver Assistance Systems (DAS) and new multiplexing techn=
ologies based on Ethernet are now getting traction.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The generalization of the needs for=
 more deterministic networks have led to the IEEE 802.1 AVB Task Group beco=
ming the Time-Sensitive Networking (TSN)
 Task Group (TG), with a much-expanded constituency from the industrial and=
 vehicular markets. Along with this expansion, the networks in consideratio=
n are becoming larger and structured, requiring deterministic forwarding be=
yond the LAN boundaries. For instance,
 Industrial Automation segregates the network along the broad lines of the =
Purdue Enterprise Reference Architecture (PERA), using different technologi=
es at each level, and public infrastructures such as Electricity Automation=
 require deterministic properties
 over the Wide Area. The realization is now coming that the convergence of =
IT and OT networks requires Layer-3, as well as Layer-2, capabilities.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">In order to serve this extended req=
uirement, the IETF and the IEEE must collaborate and define an abstract mod=
el that can be applicable both at Layer-2
 and Layer-3, and along segments of different technologies. With this new w=
ork, a path may span, for instance, across a (limited) number of 802.1 brid=
ges and then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE802=
.1 bridges may be operating at Layer-2
 over Ethernet whereas the IP routers may be 6TiSCH nodes operating at Laye=
r-2 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.15.4e MAC. The proposed model should en=
able a fully scheduled operation orchestrated by a central controller, as w=
ell as a more distributed operation
 with probably lesser capabilities. In any fashion, the model should not co=
mpromise the ability of a network to keep carrying the sorts of traffic tha=
t is already carried today.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Once the abstract model is agreed u=
pon, the IETF will need to specify the signaling elements to be used to est=
ablish a path and the tagging elements
 to be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. Th=
e IETF will also need to specify the necessary protocols, or protocol addit=
ions, based on relevant IETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH, to =
implement the selected model. As
 a result of this work, it will be possible to establish a multi-hop path o=
ver the IP network, for a particular flow with precise timing and throughpu=
t requirements, and carry this particular flow along the multi-hop path wit=
h such characteristics as low latency
 and ultra-low jitter, duplication and elimination of packets over non-cong=
ruent paths for a higher delivery ratio, and/or zero congestion loss. Depen=
ding on the network capabilities and on the current state, requests to esta=
blish a path by an end-node or a
 network management entity may be granted or rejected, and an existing path=
 may be moved or removed.&nbsp;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Please note that I am using
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/DetNet">http://trac.too=
ls.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/DetNet</a> to store a copy of the WIP charter but=
 ultimately the two documents would fork.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I maintain a public copy here :
<a href=3D"https://bitbucket.org/pthubert/detnet/raw/master/detnet%20charte=
r.txt">https://bitbucket.org/pthubert/detnet/raw/master/detnet%20charter.tx=
t</a> that you can probably edit (to be validated).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-fam=
ily: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-fam=
ily: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-fam=
ily: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Pascal<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Taho=
ma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-famil=
y: Tahoma, sans-serif;"> Marcel Kiessling [<a href=3D"mailto:m.kiessling.de=
@ieee.org">mailto:m.kiessling.de@ieee.org</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lundi 29 septembre 2014 09:11<br>
<b>To:</b> Pascal Thubert (pthubert)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: detnet Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Pascal,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">thanks for your work.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think we can add a list after &quot;vehicles&quot;=
 to clarify the intended networks.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is helpful for a better understanding to explicit=
ly list some vehicles, e.g. &quot;in the context of vehicles (including con=
trol networks in cars, trains and buses)&quot;.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I also found one little typo:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;which was designed as part of the <span style=
=3D"color:red">ARIC</span> 664 standard&quot; --&gt; ARI<b><span style=3D"c=
olor:red;background:white">N</span></b>C 664<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marcel<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From:&nbsp;&quot;Pascal Thubert (pthubert)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pthu=
bert@cisco.com">pthubert@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
To:&nbsp;&quot;Grossman, Ethan A.&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eagros@dolby.=
com">eagros@dolby.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc:&nbsp;Thomas Watteyne &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:watteyne@eecs.berkeley.edu">=
watteyne@eecs.berkeley.edu</a>&gt;, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jo=
uni.korhonen@broadcom.com">jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:detnet@ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
Date:&nbsp;Sat, 27 Sep 2014 06:52:11 &#43;0000<br>
Subject:&nbsp;Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks Ethan!<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We are actually listing &quot;vehicles&quot; in the =
proposed charter text to mean cars trains and buses control networks on top=
 of avionics.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Should we have more emphasis?<br>
<br>
Pascal<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Le 26 sept. 2014 =E0 20:18, Grossman, Ethan A. &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eagros=
@dolby.com" target=3D"_blank">eagros@dolby.com</a>&gt; a =E9crit&nbsp;:<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma,=
 sans-serif; color: black;">A couple more very tiny typos:&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma,=
 sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size: 11p=
t; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">1) &quot;Once the abstr=
act model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the signaling eleme=
nts to be used to establish a path and the
 tagging elements to be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded al=
ong that path.
</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; co=
lor: red;">the IETF&quot; (--&gt; The IETF).&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size: 11p=
t; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size: 11p=
t; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">2) &quot;The Working Gr=
oup will initially specify the protocol elements that are required to enabl=
e
</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; co=
lor: red;">an multi-hop path&quot; (--&gt; a multi-hop path)</span><span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size: 11p=
t; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size: 11p=
t; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">3) No mention of automo=
tive - assume that is intentional since not internet related?<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size: 11p=
t; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size: 11p=
t; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Ethan.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
</body>
</html>

--_000_D04EEE5848A17pwetterwciscocom_--


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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 13:23:34 +0200
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From: Marcel Kiessling <m.kiessling.de@ieee.org>
To: pthubert@cisco.com, detnet@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] detnet Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
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Dear Pascal,

I think the background is now better understandable to people that are not
familiar with the AVB usage.

You changed a sentence that sounds incorrect to me, but I am not sure if it
is a typo:
"as well as and avionics" after the changed description of the background.

Marcel

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 11:20 AM, Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) <
pwetterw@cisco.com> wrote:

>  Hi all,
>
>  Following the AFDX effort, SAE has started works to endorse
> Deterministic networking.
>
>  Standards development/revision activities
>
> =C2=B7       AS6003  TTP Communication Protocol
>
> =C2=B7       AS6066  TTP Physical Layer
>
> =C2=B7       AS6802  Time-Triggered Ethernet
>
>
>
>  Not sure you want to mention it or not.
>
>  Patrick
>
>   From: Pascal THUBERT <pthubert@cisco.com>
> Date: Monday 29 September 2014 10:17
> To: Marcel Kiessling <m.kiessling.de@ieee.org>, "Ethan Hoewisch
> (ehoewisc)" <ehoewisc@cisco.com>
> Cc: "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Detnet] detnet Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
>
>    Dear Ethan and Marcel:
>
>
>
> I tried to include both of your suggestions and generalize a bit as I
> suggested to Ethan.
>
>
>
> This got me with the following text for the background. Is that covering
> sufficient space now?
>
>
>
> Background on deterministic networking
>
>
>
>
>
> Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are
> typically used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as we=
ll
> as movement detection systems for use in process control (i.e., process
> manufacturing) and factory automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due
> to its different goals, OT has evolved in parallel but in a manner that i=
s
> radically different from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and
> deterministic networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.
>
>
>
> The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial
> Internet, represents a major evolution for both sides. The work has alrea=
dy
> started; in particular, the industrial automation space has been developi=
ng
> a number of Ethernet-based replacements for existing digital control
> systems, often not packet-based (=E2=80=9Cfieldbus=E2=80=9D technologies)=
. These
> replacements are meant to provide similar behavior as the incumbent
> protocols, and their common focus is to transport a fully characterized
> flow over a well-controlled environment (i.e., a factory floor), with a
> bounded latency, extraordinarily low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter=
.
> Examples of such protocols include PROFINET, ODVA Ethernet/IP, and EtherC=
AT.
>
>  In parallel, the need for determinism in professional and home
> audio/video markets drove the formation of the Audio/Video Bridging (AVB)
> standards effort of IEEE 802.1. With the explosion of demand for
> connectivity and multimedia in transportation in general, the Ethernet AV=
B
> technology has become one of the hottest topics, in particular in the
> automotive connectivity. It is finding application in all elements of the
> vehicle from head units, to rear seat entertainment modules, to amplifier=
s
> and camera modules. While aimed at less critical applications than some
> industrial networks, AVB networks share the requirement for extremely low
> packet loss rates and guaranteed finite latency and jitter.
>
>
>
> Other instances of in-vehicle deterministic networks have arisen as well
> for control networks in cars, trains and buses, as well as and avionics,
> with, for instance, the mission-critical =E2=80=9CAvionics Full-Duplex Sw=
itched
> Ethernet=E2=80=9D (AFDX) that was designed as part of the ARINC 664 stand=
ards.
> Existing automotive control networks such as the LIN, CAN and FlexRay
> standards were not designed to cover these increasing demands in terms of
> bandwidth and scalability that we see with various kinds of Driver
> Assistance Systems (DAS) and new multiplexing technologies based on
> Ethernet are now getting traction.
>
>
>
> The generalization of the needs for more deterministic networks have led
> to the IEEE 802.1 AVB Task Group becoming the Time-Sensitive Networking
> (TSN) Task Group (TG), with a much-expanded constituency from the
> industrial and vehicular markets. Along with this expansion, the networks
> in consideration are becoming larger and structured, requiring
> deterministic forwarding beyond the LAN boundaries. For instance,
> Industrial Automation segregates the network along the broad lines of the
> Purdue Enterprise Reference Architecture (PERA), using different
> technologies at each level, and public infrastructures such as Electricit=
y
> Automation require deterministic properties over the Wide Area. The
> realization is now coming that the convergence of IT and OT networks
> requires Layer-3, as well as Layer-2, capabilities.
>
>
>
> In order to serve this extended requirement, the IETF and the IEEE must
> collaborate and define an abstract model that can be applicable both at
> Layer-2 and Layer-3, and along segments of different technologies. With
> this new work, a path may span, for instance, across a (limited) number o=
f
> 802.1 bridges and then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example,
> the IEEE802.1 bridges may be operating at Layer-2 over Ethernet whereas t=
he
> IP routers may be 6TiSCH nodes operating at Layer-2 and/or Layer-3 over t=
he
> IEEE802.15.4e MAC. The proposed model should enable a fully scheduled
> operation orchestrated by a central controller, as well as a more
> distributed operation with probably lesser capabilities. In any fashion,
> the model should not compromise the ability of a network to keep carrying
> the sorts of traffic that is already carried today.
>
>
>
> Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the
> signaling elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging element=
s
> to be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. T=
he
> IETF will also need to specify the necessary protocols, or protocol
> additions, based on relevant IETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS and
> 6TiSCH, to implement the selected model. As a result of this work, it wil=
l
> be possible to establish a multi-hop path over the IP network, for a
> particular flow with precise timing and throughput requirements, and carr=
y
> this particular flow along the multi-hop path with such characteristics a=
s
> low latency and ultra-low jitter, duplication and elimination of packets
> over non-congruent paths for a higher delivery ratio, and/or zero
> congestion loss. Depending on the network capabilities and on the current
> state, requests to establish a path by an end-node or a network managemen=
t
> entity may be granted or rejected, and an existing path may be moved or
> removed.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please note that I am using
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/DetNet to store a copy of the
> WIP charter but ultimately the two documents would fork.
>
> I maintain a public copy here :
> https://bitbucket.org/pthubert/detnet/raw/master/detnet%20charter.txt
> that you can probably edit (to be validated).
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Pascal
>
>
>
> *From:* Marcel Kiessling [mailto:m.kiessling.de@ieee.org
> <m.kiessling.de@ieee.org>]
> *Sent:* lundi 29 septembre 2014 09:11
> *To:* Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> *Cc:* detnet@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: detnet Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
>
>
>
> Hi Pascal,
>
>
>
> thanks for your work.
>
>
>
> I think we can add a list after "vehicles" to clarify the intended
> networks.
>
> It is helpful for a better understanding to explicitly list some vehicles=
,
> e.g. "in the context of vehicles (including control networks in cars,
> trains and buses)".
>
>
>
> I also found one little typo:
>
> "which was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standard" --> ARI*N*C 664
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Marcel
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
> To: "Grossman, Ethan A." <eagros@dolby.com>
> Cc: Thomas Watteyne <watteyne@eecs.berkeley.edu>, Jouni Korhonen <
> jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com>, "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>
> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 06:52:11 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal
>
> Thanks Ethan!
>
>
>
> We are actually listing "vehicles" in the proposed charter text to mean
> cars trains and buses control networks on top of avionics.
>
>
>
> Should we have more emphasis?
>
> Pascal
>
>
> Le 26 sept. 2014 =C3=A0 20:18, Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com> a =
=C3=A9crit :
>
>  A couple more very tiny typos:
>
>
>
> 1) "Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify
> the signaling elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging
> elements to be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along tha=
t
> path. the IETF" (--> The IETF).
>
>
>
> 2) "The Working Group will initially specify the protocol elements that
> are required to enable an multi-hop path" (--> a multi-hop path)
>
>
>
> 3) No mention of automotive - assume that is intentional since not
> internet related?
>
>
>
> Ethan.
>
>
>
>

--001a11c2fdf658bd3d0504327fc5
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear Pascal,<div><br></div><div>I think the background is =
now better understandable to people that are not familiar with the AVB usag=
e.</div><div><br></div><div>You changed a sentence that sounds incorrect to=
 me, but I am not sure if it is a typo:<br></div><div>&quot;as well as and =
avionics&quot; after the changed description of the background.</div><div><=
br></div><div>Marcel<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 11:20 AM, Patrick Wetterwald (pw=
etterw) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pwetterw@cisco.com" target=
=3D"_blank">pwetterw@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">









<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div>Hi all,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Following the AFDX effort, SAE has started works to endorse Determinis=
tic networking.=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<p>Standards development/revision activities<u></u><u></u></p>
<br>
<p><span>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:=
&#39;Times New Roman&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span>AS6003=C2=A0 <span style=3D"color:#333333">TTP Communication =
Protocol</span></p>
<p><span>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:=
&#39;Times New Roman&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span>AS6066=C2=A0 <span style=3D"color:#333333">TTP Physical Layer=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:=
&#39;Times New Roman&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span>AS6802=C2=A0 <span style=3D"color:#333333">Time-Triggered Eth=
ernet</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>Not sure you want to mention it or not.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Patrick</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:blac=
k;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADD=
ING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:me=
dium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Pascal THUBERT &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:pthubert@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">pthubert@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br=
>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Monday 29 September 2014 10:1=
7<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Marcel Kiessling &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:m.kiessling.de@ieee.org" target=3D"_blank">m.kiessling.de@ieee.org<=
/a>&gt;, &quot;Ethan Hoewisch (ehoewisc)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ehoewi=
sc@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ehoewisc@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">detnet@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:detnet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">detnet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Detnet] detnet Digest=
, Vol 2, Issue 40<br>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0=
 0 5">
<div>


<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Dear Ethan and Marcel:<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I tried to include both of your suggestions =
and generalize a bit as I suggested to Ethan.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">This got me with the following text for the =
background. Is that covering sufficient space now?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Background=
 on deterministic networking
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Operational Technology (OT) refers to indust=
rial networks that are typically used for monitoring systems and supporting=
 control loops, as well as
 movement detection systems for use in process control (i.e., process manuf=
acturing) and factory automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its=
 different goals, OT has evolved in parallel but in a manner that is radica=
lly different from IT/ICT, focusing
 on highly secure, reliable and deterministic networks, with limited scalab=
ility over a bounded area.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">The convergence of IT and OT technologies, a=
lso called the Industrial Internet, represents a major evolution for both s=
ides. The work has already
 started; in particular, the industrial automation space has been developin=
g a number of Ethernet-based replacements for existing digital control syst=
ems, often not packet-based (=E2=80=9Cfieldbus=E2=80=9D technologies). Thes=
e replacements are meant to provide similar behavior
 as the incumbent protocols, and their common focus is to transport a fully=
 characterized flow over a well-controlled environment (i.e., a factory flo=
or), with a bounded latency, extraordinarily low frame loss, and a very nar=
row jitter. Examples of such protocols
 include PROFINET, ODVA Ethernet/IP, and EtherCAT.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">In parallel, the need for determinism in pro=
fessional and home audio/video markets drove the formation of the Audio/Vid=
eo Bridging (AVB) standards
 effort of IEEE 802.1. With the explosion of demand for connectivity and mu=
ltimedia in transportation in general, the Ethernet AVB technology has beco=
me one of the hottest topics, in particular in the automotive connectivity.=
 It is finding application in all
 elements of the vehicle from head units, to rear seat entertainment module=
s, to amplifiers and camera modules. While aimed at less critical applicati=
ons than some industrial networks, AVB networks share the requirement for e=
xtremely low packet loss rates and
 guaranteed finite latency and jitter. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Other instances of in-vehicle deterministic =
networks have arisen as well for control networks in cars, trains and buses=
, as well as and avionics,
 with, for instance, the mission-critical =E2=80=9CAvionics Full-Duplex Swi=
tched Ethernet=E2=80=9D (AFDX) that was designed as part of the ARINC 664 s=
tandards. Existing automotive control networks such as the LIN, CAN and Fle=
xRay standards were not designed to cover these
 increasing demands in terms of bandwidth and scalability that we see with =
various kinds of Driver Assistance Systems (DAS) and new multiplexing techn=
ologies based on Ethernet are now getting traction.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">The generalization of the needs for more det=
erministic networks have led to the IEEE 802.1 AVB Task Group becoming the =
Time-Sensitive Networking (TSN)
 Task Group (TG), with a much-expanded constituency from the industrial and=
 vehicular markets. Along with this expansion, the networks in consideratio=
n are becoming larger and structured, requiring deterministic forwarding be=
yond the LAN boundaries. For instance,
 Industrial Automation segregates the network along the broad lines of the =
Purdue Enterprise Reference Architecture (PERA), using different technologi=
es at each level, and public infrastructures such as Electricity Automation=
 require deterministic properties
 over the Wide Area. The realization is now coming that the convergence of =
IT and OT networks requires Layer-3, as well as Layer-2, capabilities.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">In order to serve this extended requirement,=
 the IETF and the IEEE must collaborate and define an abstract model that c=
an be applicable both at Layer-2
 and Layer-3, and along segments of different technologies. With this new w=
ork, a path may span, for instance, across a (limited) number of 802.1 brid=
ges and then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE802=
.1 bridges may be operating at Layer-2
 over Ethernet whereas the IP routers may be 6TiSCH nodes operating at Laye=
r-2 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.15.4e MAC. The proposed model should en=
able a fully scheduled operation orchestrated by a central controller, as w=
ell as a more distributed operation
 with probably lesser capabilities. In any fashion, the model should not co=
mpromise the ability of a network to keep carrying the sorts of traffic tha=
t is already carried today.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the =
IETF will need to specify the signaling elements to be used to establish a =
path and the tagging elements
 to be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. Th=
e IETF will also need to specify the necessary protocols, or protocol addit=
ions, based on relevant IETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH, to =
implement the selected model. As
 a result of this work, it will be possible to establish a multi-hop path o=
ver the IP network, for a particular flow with precise timing and throughpu=
t requirements, and carry this particular flow along the multi-hop path wit=
h such characteristics as low latency
 and ultra-low jitter, duplication and elimination of packets over non-cong=
ruent paths for a higher delivery ratio, and/or zero congestion loss. Depen=
ding on the network capabilities and on the current state, requests to esta=
blish a path by an end-node or a
 network management entity may be granted or rejected, and an existing path=
 may be moved or removed.=C2=A0=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Please note that I am using
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/DetNet" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/DetNet</a> to store a copy of t=
he WIP charter but ultimately the two documents would fork.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I maintain a public copy here :
<a href=3D"https://bitbucket.org/pthubert/detnet/raw/master/detnet%20charte=
r.txt" target=3D"_blank">https://bitbucket.org/pthubert/detnet/raw/master/d=
etnet%20charter.txt</a> that you can probably edit (to be validated).<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Pascal<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,=
sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahom=
a,sans-serif"> Marcel Kiessling [<a href=3D"mailto:m.kiessling.de@ieee.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">mailto:m.kiessling.de@ieee.org</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lundi 29 septembre 2014 09:11<br>
<b>To:</b> Pascal Thubert (pthubert)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">detnet@ietf=
.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: detnet Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Pascal,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">thanks for your work.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think we can add a list after &quot;vehicles&quot;=
 to clarify the intended networks.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is helpful for a better understanding to explicit=
ly list some vehicles, e.g. &quot;in the context of vehicles (including con=
trol networks in cars, trains and buses)&quot;.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I also found one little typo:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;which was designed as part of the <span style=
=3D"color:red">ARIC</span> 664 standard&quot; --&gt; ARI<b><span style=3D"c=
olor:red;background:white">N</span></b>C 664<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marcel<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From:=C2=A0&quot;Pascal Thubert (pthubert)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pthu=
bert@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">pthubert@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
To:=C2=A0&quot;Grossman, Ethan A.&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eagros@dolby.=
com" target=3D"_blank">eagros@dolby.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc:=C2=A0Thomas Watteyne &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:watteyne@eecs.berkeley.edu" =
target=3D"_blank">watteyne@eecs.berkeley.edu</a>&gt;, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.korhon=
en@broadcom.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">detnet@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">detnet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
Date:=C2=A0Sat, 27 Sep 2014 06:52:11 +0000<br>
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks Ethan!<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We are actually listing &quot;vehicles&quot; in the =
proposed charter text to mean cars trains and buses control networks on top=
 of avionics.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Should we have more emphasis?<br>
<br>
Pascal<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Le 26 sept. 2014 =C3=A0 20:18, Grossman, Ethan A. &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eag=
ros@dolby.com" target=3D"_blank">eagros@dolby.com</a>&gt; a =C3=A9crit=C2=
=A0:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,san=
s-serif;color:black">A couple more very tiny typos:=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,san=
s-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">1) &quot;Once the abstract mod=
el is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the signaling elements to =
be used to establish a path and the
 tagging elements to be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded al=
ong that path.
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:r=
ed">the IETF&quot; (--&gt; The IETF).=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">2) &quot;The Working Group wil=
l initially specify the protocol elements that are required to enable
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:r=
ed">an multi-hop path&quot; (--&gt; a multi-hop path)</span><span style=3D"=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">3) No mention of automotive - =
assume that is intentional since not internet related?<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p=
>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">Ethan.<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div></span>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a11c2fdf658bd3d0504327fc5--


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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: Marcel Kiessling <m.kiessling.de@ieee.org>, "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] detnet Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
Thread-Index: AQHP28asD2RzT93Lmkm6Mhnvzx7GP5wYS+AA//+z2jA=
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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: requirement drafts
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--_000_E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DE4B47xmbrcdx01ciscoc_
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So we made the Bof Submission time for detnet...

You will find the submission posted here for reference - it has the intro o=
f the draft charter as of last Friday: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/=
#Routing

But we're not there yet. Within the next month, we have to start the requir=
ement drafts in any 3-4 of automotive, avionics, process control, factory a=
utomation, grid automation, and audio/video applications either at home or =
in professional studios, so as to present a status at the BoF.

Please note that it is very classical and very welcome to start your open I=
ETF activity with a requirement draft. It makes all the sense in the world =
since the requirements come from people of the art, which may well mean peo=
ple from outside the IETF to bring in new problems and new work.
One may consider RFC 5673 as an example for a draft structure, and I can pr=
ovide (unicast) the XML sources and any help progress in modifying and comp=
iling into a new I-Draft. Style guidelines are found here http://www.rfc-ed=
itor.org/styleguide.html and in RFC 7322.

Do we have volunteers?

Pascal



--_000_E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DE4B47xmbrcdx01ciscoc_
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So we made the Bof Submission time for detnet&#8230;=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You will find the submission posted here for referen=
ce &#8211; it has the intro of the draft charter as of last Friday:
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/#Routing">http://trac.tools.=
ietf.org/bof/trac/#Routing</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But we&#8217;re not there yet. Within the next month=
, we have to start the requirement drafts in any 3-4 of automotive, avionic=
s, process control, factory automation, grid automation, and audio/video ap=
plications either at home or in professional
 studios, so as to present a status at the BoF. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please note that it is very classical and very welco=
me to start your open IETF activity with a requirement draft. It makes all =
the sense in the world since the requirements come from people of the art, =
which may well mean people from outside
 the IETF to bring in new problems and new work.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">One may consider RFC 5673 as an example for a draft =
structure, and I can provide (unicast) the XML sources and any help progres=
s in modifying and compiling into a new I-Draft. Style guidelines are found=
 here
<a href=3D"http://www.rfc-editor.org/styleguide.html">http://www.rfc-editor=
.org/styleguide.html</a> and in RFC 7322.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Do we have volunteers?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Pascal<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842DE4B47xmbrcdx01ciscoc_--


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From: "Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)" <pwetterw@cisco.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] requirement drafts
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Dear all,

I=92ll be working on the requirement draft for Utilities with Jean Raymond =
from Hydroquebec. We already have a number of use cases and associated requ=
irements where deterministic networking will be key.

If somebody else would like to join us on this effort, feel free.

Many thanks,

Patrick and Jean

From: Pascal THUBERT <pthubert@cisco.com<mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>>
Date: Monday 29 September 2014 15:40
To: "detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>" <detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detne=
t@ietf.org>>
Subject: [Detnet] requirement drafts

So we made the Bof Submission time for detnet=85

You will find the submission posted here for reference =96 it has the intro=
 of the draft charter as of last Friday: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/tra=
c/#Routing

But we=92re not there yet. Within the next month, we have to start the requ=
irement drafts in any 3-4 of automotive, avionics, process control, factory=
 automation, grid automation, and audio/video applications either at home o=
r in professional studios, so as to present a status at the BoF.

Please note that it is very classical and very welcome to start your open I=
ETF activity with a requirement draft. It makes all the sense in the world =
since the requirements come from people of the art, which may well mean peo=
ple from outside the IETF to bring in new problems and new work.
One may consider RFC 5673 as an example for a draft structure, and I can pr=
ovide (unicast) the XML sources and any help progress in modifying and comp=
iling into a new I-Draft. Style guidelines are found here http://www.rfc-ed=
itor.org/styleguide.html and in RFC 7322.

Do we have volunteers?

Pascal



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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>Dear all,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I=92ll be working on the requirement draft for Utilities with Jean Ray=
mond from Hydroquebec. We already have a number of use cases and associated=
 requirements where deterministic networking will be key.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If somebody else would like to join us on this effort, feel free.</div=
>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Many thanks,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Patrick and Jean</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Pascal THUBERT &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:pthubert@cisco.com">pthubert@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Monday 29 September 2014 15:4=
0<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@=
ietf.org">detnet@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org">=
detnet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>[Detnet] requirement draft=
s<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So we made the Bof Submission time for detnet=85<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You will find the submission posted here for referen=
ce =96 it has the intro of the draft charter as of last Friday:
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/#Routing">http://trac.tools.=
ietf.org/bof/trac/#Routing</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But we=92re not there yet. Within the next month, we=
 have to start the requirement drafts in any 3-4 of automotive, avionics, p=
rocess control, factory automation, grid automation, and audio/video applic=
ations either at home or in professional
 studios, so as to present a status at the BoF. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please note that it is very classical and very welco=
me to start your open IETF activity with a requirement draft. It makes all =
the sense in the world since the requirements come from people of the art, =
which may well mean people from outside
 the IETF to bring in new problems and new work.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">One may consider RFC 5673 as an example for a draft =
structure, and I can provide (unicast) the XML sources and any help progres=
s in modifying and compiling into a new I-Draft. Style guidelines are found=
 here
<a href=3D"http://www.rfc-editor.org/styleguide.html">http://www.rfc-editor=
.org/styleguide.html</a> and in RFC 7322.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Do we have volunteers?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Pascal<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
</body>
</html>

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To: Thomas Watteyne <watteyne@eecs.berkeley.edu>, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal
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A couple more very tiny typos:


1) "Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify t=
he signaling elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elemen=
ts to be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. =
the IETF" (--> The IETF).



2) "The Working Group will initially specify the protocol elements that are=
 required to enable an multi-hop path" (--> a multi-hop path)



3) No mention of automotive - assume that is intentional since not internet=
 related?


Ethan.

________________________________
From: Thomas Watteyne [watteyne@eecs.berkeley.edu]
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 11:02 AM
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert); detnet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal

+1

Congratulations to all for the fantastic work, this will be a very good act=
ivity to have at the IETF.

(very) minor typos:
- focusses -> focuses
- IEEE801.1TSN -> IEEE802.1TSN

On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 3:57 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen@broadcom.co=
m<mailto:jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com>> wrote:
Thanks Pascal. Looks good to me now.

--
Jouni Korhonen
Broadcom

(Sent from my mobile..)

"Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com<mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>>=
 kirjoitti 26.9.2014 kello 13.15:

detnet: "deterministic networking"

Background on deterministic networking


Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typicall=
y used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as well as move=
ment detection systems for use in process control (i.e., process manufactur=
ing) and factory automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its diff=
erent goals, OT has evolved in parallel but in a manner that is radically d=
ifferent from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and deterministic=
 networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.

The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Inter=
net, represents a major evolution for both sides. The work has already star=
ted; in particular, the industrial automation space has been developing a n=
umber of Ethernet-based replacements for existing digital control systems, =
often not packet-based (=93fieldbus=94 technologies). These replacements ar=
e meant to provide similar behavior as the incumbent protocols, and their c=
ommon focus is to transport a fully characterized flow over a well-controll=
ed environment (i.e., a factory floor), with a bounded latency, extraordina=
rily low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter. Examples of such protocols i=
nclude PROFINET, ODVA Ethernet/IP, and EtherCAT.

In parallel, the need for determinism drove the formation of the Audio/Vide=
o Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the profession=
al and home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical applications =
than some industrial networks, AVB networks share the requirement for extre=
mely low packet loss rates and guaranteed finite latency and jitter. Other =
instances of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for instance in th=
e context of vehicles and avionics, such as the mission-critical =93Avionic=
s Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet=94 (AFDX), which was designed as part of th=
e ARIC 664 standards.

The success of the 802.1 AVB standards in the professional studio environme=
nt and the needs of the industrial networking markets have led to the IEEE =
802.1 AVB Task Group becoming the Time-Sensitive Networking (TSN) Task Grou=
p (TG), with a much-expanded constituency from the industrial and vehicular=
 markets. Along with this expansion, the networks in consideration are beco=
ming larger and structured, and require deterministic forwarding beyond the=
 LAN boundaries. For instance, Industrial Automation segregates the network=
 along the broad lines of the Purdue Enterprise Reference Architecture (PER=
A), using different technologies at each level, and public infrastructures =
such as Electricity Automation require deterministic properties over the Wi=
de Area. The realization is now coming that the convergence of IT and OT ne=
tworks requires Layer-3, as well as Layer-2, capabilities.

In order to serve this extended requirement, the IETF and the IEEE must col=
laborate and define an abstract model that can be applicable both at Layer-=
2 and Layer-3, and along segments of different technologies. With this new =
work, a path may span, for instance, across a (limited) number of 802.1 bri=
dges and then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE80=
2.1 bridges may be operating at Layer-2 over Ethernet whereas the IP router=
s may be 6TiSCH nodes operating at Layer-2 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.=
15.4e MAC. The proposed model should enable a fully scheduled operation orc=
hestrated by a central controller, as well as a more distributed operation =
with probably lesser capabilities. In any fashion, the model should not com=
promise the ability of a network to keep carrying the sorts of traffic that=
 is already carried today.

Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the s=
ignaling elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elements t=
o be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. the =
IETF will also need to specify the necessary protocols, or protocol additio=
ns, based on relevant IETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH, to im=
plement the selected model. As a result of this work, it will be possible t=
o establish an multi-hop path over the IP network, for a particular flow wi=
th precise timing and throughput requirements, and carry this particular fl=
ow along the multi-hop path with such characteristics as low latency and ul=
tra-low jitter, duplication and elimination of packets over non-congruent p=
aths for a higher delivery ratio, and/or zero congestion loss. Depending on=
 the network capabilities and on the current state, requests to establish a=
 path by na end-node or a network management entity may be granted or rejec=
ted, and an existing path may be moved or removed.


WG description


The deterministic networking Working Group (detnet) will focus on the estab=
lishment and maintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-=
3 routed segments. Though only Layer-3 operations will be specified by the =
WG as Standard Track documents, the group will collaborate with IEEE802.1TS=
N, which designs the Layer-2 operations, to define a common paradigm, lever=
aging cross-participation and liaison work to maintain consistency. In that=
 common paradigm, a number of elements such as the host operation should be=
 agnostic to the organization of the multi-hop path.

The considered network will initially be of a moderate size, composed of mi=
xed Layer-2 / Layer-3 sub-networks of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts=
. A single administrative domain such as a campus, a Small/Home office Netw=
ork, or a controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to start with, and a=
pproaches that can be applied to the Internet at large will be favored.
The Working Group will initially specify the protocol elements that are req=
uired to enable an multi-hop path, and forward along that path with the det=
erministic properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jit=
ter, and high reliability. The work will apply to and only to flows that ca=
n be characterized in a manner that allows the network to 1) reserve the ap=
propriate resources for the flows in advance, and 2) release/reuse the reso=
urces when they are no more required. The work will cover the characterizat=
ion of flows, the tagging of packets, the required forwarding behaviors, as=
 well as the state that may need to be established in intermediate nodes; i=
t will not include end-to-end consideration such as transport protocols. Th=
is work focusses on flows and does not depend on the path setup protocol th=
at will be selected. The data models and flow tagging should be compatible =
with the similar work done at IEEE801.1TSN so they could be either directly=
 usable at both layers, or mappable in an unambiguous fashion.
The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Inte=
rnet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Rout=
ing and Security areas. As the work progresses, some of the items initially=
 considered the deterministic networking WG may be transferred to those wor=
king groups as deemed appropriate by all parties.

The WG will conclude this round with the selection of a solution paradigm a=
nd suggest a base protocol that can be applied or extended.
Work Items

- Deliverables:

  * An analysis of the needs in various deployment environments. 3-4 inform=
ational track documents which could include factory automation, grid automa=
tion, avionics and audio/video studios.

  * A generic problem statement including an analysis of the proposed solut=
ions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN.

  * A study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the defini=
tion of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (as per RF=
C 7346). For instance, the deterministic technology needs to be consistent =
over a Link- or a Realm-Local scope and achievable across technologies and =
layers over an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.

  * A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explore=
d, such as peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), centra=
l controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), connection to operations (app=
lication) controllers, and mixed scenarios, in relation to the generic scop=
ing of IP.
  * A standards track data flow characterization model document for use in =
flow reservation protocol. The model should be independent from the protoco=
l(s) that are selected from the solution taxonomy (e.g. an evolution of PCE=
P or RSVP).

  * A standards track flow identification document for use in packet forwar=
ding, with the specific application to at least classical IP, 6TiSCH track =
forwarding, and MPLS.

  * A standards track data model for the abstract state to be installed in =
the forwarding device and the associated packet forwarding behavior.

  The WG will conclude this round with the selection of a paradigm and a ba=
se protocol that can be applied or extended.


Cheers,

Pascal
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<div style=3D"direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: =
10pt;">A couple more very tiny typos:&nbsp;
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11.0pt">1) &quot;Once =
the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the signal=
ing elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elements to be =
used identify the flows that are to be
 forwarded along that path. <font color=3D"#ff0000">the IETF&quot; (--&gt; =
The IETF).&nbsp;</font></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;<span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11.0pt">2) &quot;The W=
orking Group will initially specify the protocol elements that are required=
 to enable
<font color=3D"#ff0000">an multi-hop path&quot; (--&gt; a multi-hop path)</=
font></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11.0pt">3) No mention =
of automotive - assume that is intentional since not internet related?</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11.0pt"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11.0pt">Ethan.</p>
<div style=3D"font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px=
">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRpF520136" style=3D"direction: ltr;"><font face=3D"Tahoma" si=
ze=3D"2" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Thomas Watteyne [watteyne@eecs.berk=
eley.edu]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 26, 2014 11:02 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jouni Korhonen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Pascal Thubert (pthubert); detnet@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">&#43;1
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Congratulations to all for the fantastic work, this will be a very goo=
d activity to have at the IETF.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>(very) minor typos:</div>
<div>-&nbsp;focusses -&gt;&nbsp;focuses</div>
<div>-&nbsp;IEEE801.1TSN -&gt;&nbsp;IEEE802.1TSN</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 3:57 AM, Jouni Korhonen =
<span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.=
korhonen@broadcom.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div>Thanks Pascal. Looks good to me now.&nbsp;<br>
<br>
<div>--&nbsp;</div>
<div>Jouni Korhonen</div>
<div>Broadcom</div>
<div><br>
</div>
(Sent from my mobile..)</div>
<div><br>
&quot;Pascal Thubert (pthubert)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pthubert@cisco.=
com" target=3D"_blank">pthubert@cisco.com</a>&gt; kirjoitti 26.9.2014 kello=
 13.15:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">detnet: &quot;determini=
stic networking&quot;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt; padding:0c=
m 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none; padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; col=
or:#1f497d">Background on deterministic networking
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">Operational Technology =
(OT) refers to industrial networks that are typically used for monitoring s=
ystems and supporting control loops, as well as movement
 detection systems for use in process control (i.e., process manufacturing)=
 and factory automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its differen=
t goals, OT has evolved in parallel but in a manner that is radically diffe=
rent from IT/ICT, focusing on highly
 secure, reliable and deterministic networks, with limited scalability over=
 a bounded area.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">The convergence of IT a=
nd OT technologies, also called the Industrial Internet, represents a major=
 evolution for both sides. The work has already started;
 in particular, the industrial automation space has been developing a numbe=
r of Ethernet-based replacements for existing digital control systems, ofte=
n not packet-based (=93fieldbus=94 technologies). These replacements are me=
ant to provide similar behavior as the
 incumbent protocols, and their common focus is to transport a fully charac=
terized flow over a well-controlled environment (i.e., a factory floor), wi=
th a bounded latency, extraordinarily low frame loss, and a very narrow jit=
ter. Examples of such protocols
 include PROFINET, ODVA Ethernet/IP, and EtherCAT.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">In parallel, the need f=
or determinism drove the formation of the Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standa=
rds effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the professional and
 home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical applications than s=
ome industrial networks, AVB networks share the requirement for extremely l=
ow packet loss rates and guaranteed finite latency and jitter. Other instan=
ces of deterministic networks have
 arisen as well, for instance in the context of vehicles and avionics, such=
 as the mission-critical =93Avionics Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet=94 (AFDX=
), which was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standards.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">The success of the 802.=
1 AVB standards in the professional studio environment and the needs of the=
 industrial networking markets have led to the IEEE 802.1
 AVB Task Group becoming the Time-Sensitive Networking (TSN) Task Group (TG=
), with a much-expanded constituency from the industrial and vehicular mark=
ets. Along with this expansion, the networks in consideration are becoming =
larger and structured, and require
 deterministic forwarding beyond the LAN boundaries. For instance, Industri=
al Automation segregates the network along the broad lines of the Purdue En=
terprise Reference Architecture (PERA), using different technologies at eac=
h level, and public infrastructures
 such as Electricity Automation require deterministic properties over the W=
ide Area. The realization is now coming that the convergence of IT and OT n=
etworks requires Layer-3, as well as Layer-2, capabilities.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">In order to serve this =
extended requirement, the IETF and the IEEE must collaborate and define an =
abstract model that can be applicable both at Layer-2 and
 Layer-3, and along segments of different technologies. With this new work,=
 a path may span, for instance, across a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges =
and then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE802.1 b=
ridges may be operating at Layer-2
 over Ethernet whereas the IP routers may be 6TiSCH nodes operating at Laye=
r-2 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.15.4e MAC. The proposed model should en=
able a fully scheduled operation orchestrated by a central controller, as w=
ell as a more distributed operation
 with probably lesser capabilities. In any fashion, the model should not co=
mpromise the ability of a network to keep carrying the sorts of traffic tha=
t is already carried today.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">Once the abstract model=
 is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the signaling elements to be=
 used to establish a path and the tagging elements to be
 used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. the IETF=
 will also need to specify the necessary protocols, or protocol additions, =
based on relevant IETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH, to implem=
ent the selected model. As a result
 of this work, it will be possible to establish an multi-hop path over the =
IP network, for a particular flow with precise timing and throughput requir=
ements, and carry this particular flow along the multi-hop path with such c=
haracteristics as low latency and
 ultra-low jitter, duplication and elimination of packets over non-congruen=
t paths for a higher delivery ratio, and/or zero congestion loss. Depending=
 on the network capabilities and on the current state, requests to establis=
h a path by na end-node or a network
 management entity may be granted or rejected, and an existing path may be =
moved or removed.&nbsp;&nbsp;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt; padding:0c=
m 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none; padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; col=
or:#1f497d">WG description<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">The deterministic netwo=
rking Working Group (detnet) will focus on the establishment and maintenanc=
e of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-3 routed
 segments. Though only Layer-3 operations will be specified by the WG as St=
andard Track documents, the group will collaborate with IEEE802.1TSN, which=
 designs the Layer-2 operations, to define a common paradigm, leveraging cr=
oss-participation and liaison work
 to maintain consistency. In that common paradigm, a number of elements suc=
h as the host operation should be agnostic to the organization of the multi=
-hop path.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">The considered network =
will initially be of a moderate size, composed of mixed Layer-2 / Layer-3 s=
ub-networks of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts. A
 single administrative domain such as a campus, a Small/Home office Network=
, or a controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to start with, and appr=
oaches that can be applied to the Internet at large will be favored.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">The Working Group will =
initially specify the protocol elements that are required to enable an mult=
i-hop path, and forward along that path with the deterministic
 properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jitter, and h=
igh reliability. The work will apply to and only to flows that can be chara=
cterized in a manner that allows the network to 1) reserve the appropriate =
resources for the flows in advance,
 and 2) release/reuse the resources when they are no more required. The wor=
k will cover the characterization of flows, the tagging of packets, the req=
uired forwarding behaviors, as well as the state that may need to be establ=
ished in intermediate nodes; it
 will not include end-to-end consideration such as transport protocols. Thi=
s work focusses on flows and does not depend on the path setup protocol tha=
t will be selected. The data models and flow tagging should be compatible w=
ith the similar work done at IEEE801.1TSN
 so they could be either directly usable at both layers, or mappable in an =
unambiguous fashion.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">The WG will interface w=
ith other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Internet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Tra=
nsport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Routing
 and Security areas. As the work progresses, some of the items initially co=
nsidered the deterministic networking WG may be transferred to those workin=
g groups as deemed appropriate by all parties.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">The WG will conclude th=
is round with the selection of a solution paradigm and suggest a base proto=
col that can be applied or extended.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt; padding:0c=
m 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none; padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; col=
or:#1f497d">Work Items&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">- Deliverables:<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;* An analys=
is of the needs in various deployment environments. 3-4 informational track=
 documents which could include factory automation, grid automation,
 avionics and audio/video studios.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A generic=
 problem statement including an analysis of the proposed solutions of the r=
elated work at IEEE802.1TSN.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A study o=
f generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the definition of Link-=
Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (as per RFC 7346).
 For instance, the deterministic technology needs to be consistent over a L=
ink- or a Realm-Local scope and achievable across technologies and layers o=
ver an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A solutio=
n taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explored, such as pe=
er-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), central controller
 (along the lines of SDN or PCE), connection to operations (application) co=
ntrollers, and mixed scenarios, in relation to the generic scoping of IP.<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A standar=
ds track data flow characterization model document for use in flow reservat=
ion protocol. The model should be independent from the protocol(s)
 that are selected from the solution taxonomy (e.g. an evolution of PCEP or=
 RSVP).
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A standar=
ds track flow identification document for use in packet forwarding, with th=
e specific application to at least classical IP, 6TiSCH track forwarding,
 and MPLS. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A standar=
ds track data model for the abstract state to be installed in the forwardin=
g device and the associated packet forwarding behavior.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp; The WG will conc=
lude this round with the selection of a paradigm and a base protocol that c=
an be applied or extended.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">Cheers,<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbs=
p;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">Pascal<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
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From: "Grossman, Ethan A." <eagros@dolby.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal
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Hi Pascal (A friend of Norm's is a friend of mine ;-)

On the one hand my take is that at least half a sentence should be devoted,=
 given the depth of contribution of the Automotive community to the AVB sta=
ndards, and that it is a hot topic in that industry:

"With the explosion of demand for connectivity and multimedia in the automo=
bile, the need for standards-based A/V networking that can be easily deploy=
ed has been growing. Ethernet AVB (Audio Video Bridging) has become one of =
the hottest topics in automotive connectivity. It is finding application in=
 all elements of the car from head units, to rear seat entertainment module=
s, to amplifiers and camera modules. Furthermore, existing vehicle control =
networks such as the LIN, CAN and FlexRay standards are not designed to cov=
er these increasing demands in terms of bandwidth and scalability that we s=
ee with various kinds of Driver Assistance Systems (DAS)." (http://www.xzad=
ium.com/blog/avb-emerging-technology-in-audio-video-transmission)

But on the other hand, Automotive AVB systems tend to be closed systems, an=
d thus perhaps are not as "interesting" to the IETF crowd (I have no idea i=
f this is true). Anyway if one feels it is worthwhile to add a few more wor=
ds, perhaps the above could provide some ideas.

Best,
Ethan.

________________________________
From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [pthubert@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 11:52 PM
To: Grossman, Ethan A.
Cc: Thomas Watteyne; Jouni Korhonen; detnet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal

Thanks Ethan!

We are actually listing "vehicles" in the proposed charter text to mean car=
s trains and buses control networks on top of avionics.

Should we have more emphasis?

Pascal

Le 26 sept. 2014 =E0 20:18, Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com<mailto:eag=
ros@dolby.com>> a =E9crit :

A couple more very tiny typos:


1) "Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify t=
he signaling elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elemen=
ts to be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. =
the IETF" (--> The IETF).



2) "The Working Group will initially specify the protocol elements that are=
 required to enable an multi-hop path" (--> a multi-hop path)



3) No mention of automotive - assume that is intentional since not internet=
 related?


Ethan.

________________________________
From: Thomas Watteyne [watteyne@eecs.berkeley.edu<mailto:watteyne@eecs.berk=
eley.edu>]
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 11:02 AM
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert); detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal

+1

Congratulations to all for the fantastic work, this will be a very good act=
ivity to have at the IETF.

(very) minor typos:
- focusses -> focuses
- IEEE801.1TSN -> IEEE802.1TSN

On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 3:57 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen@broadcom.co=
m<mailto:jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com>> wrote:
Thanks Pascal. Looks good to me now.

--
Jouni Korhonen
Broadcom

(Sent from my mobile..)

"Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com<mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>>=
 kirjoitti 26.9.2014 kello 13.15:

detnet: "deterministic networking"

Background on deterministic networking


Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typicall=
y used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as well as move=
ment detection systems for use in process control (i.e., process manufactur=
ing) and factory automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its diff=
erent goals, OT has evolved in parallel but in a manner that is radically d=
ifferent from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and deterministic=
 networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.

The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Inter=
net, represents a major evolution for both sides. The work has already star=
ted; in particular, the industrial automation space has been developing a n=
umber of Ethernet-based replacements for existing digital control systems, =
often not packet-based (=93fieldbus=94 technologies). These replacements ar=
e meant to provide similar behavior as the incumbent protocols, and their c=
ommon focus is to transport a fully characterized flow over a well-controll=
ed environment (i.e., a factory floor), with a bounded latency, extraordina=
rily low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter. Examples of such protocols i=
nclude PROFINET, ODVA Ethernet/IP, and EtherCAT.

In parallel, the need for determinism drove the formation of the Audio/Vide=
o Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the profession=
al and home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical applications =
than some industrial networks, AVB networks share the requirement for extre=
mely low packet loss rates and guaranteed finite latency and jitter. Other =
instances of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for instance in th=
e context of vehicles and avionics, such as the mission-critical =93Avionic=
s Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet=94 (AFDX), which was designed as part of th=
e ARIC 664 standards.

The success of the 802.1 AVB standards in the professional studio environme=
nt and the needs of the industrial networking markets have led to the IEEE =
802.1 AVB Task Group becoming the Time-Sensitive Networking (TSN) Task Grou=
p (TG), with a much-expanded constituency from the industrial and vehicular=
 markets. Along with this expansion, the networks in consideration are beco=
ming larger and structured, and require deterministic forwarding beyond the=
 LAN boundaries. For instance, Industrial Automation segregates the network=
 along the broad lines of the Purdue Enterprise Reference Architecture (PER=
A), using different technologies at each level, and public infrastructures =
such as Electricity Automation require deterministic properties over the Wi=
de Area. The realization is now coming that the convergence of IT and OT ne=
tworks requires Layer-3, as well as Layer-2, capabilities.

In order to serve this extended requirement, the IETF and the IEEE must col=
laborate and define an abstract model that can be applicable both at Layer-=
2 and Layer-3, and along segments of different technologies. With this new =
work, a path may span, for instance, across a (limited) number of 802.1 bri=
dges and then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE80=
2.1 bridges may be operating at Layer-2 over Ethernet whereas the IP router=
s may be 6TiSCH nodes operating at Layer-2 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.=
15.4e MAC. The proposed model should enable a fully scheduled operation orc=
hestrated by a central controller, as well as a more distributed operation =
with probably lesser capabilities. In any fashion, the model should not com=
promise the ability of a network to keep carrying the sorts of traffic that=
 is already carried today.

Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the s=
ignaling elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elements t=
o be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. the =
IETF will also need to specify the necessary protocols, or protocol additio=
ns, based on relevant IETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH, to im=
plement the selected model. As a result of this work, it will be possible t=
o establish an multi-hop path over the IP network, for a particular flow wi=
th precise timing and throughput requirements, and carry this particular fl=
ow along the multi-hop path with such characteristics as low latency and ul=
tra-low jitter, duplication and elimination of packets over non-congruent p=
aths for a higher delivery ratio, and/or zero congestion loss. Depending on=
 the network capabilities and on the current state, requests to establish a=
 path by na end-node or a network management entity may be granted or rejec=
ted, and an existing path may be moved or removed.


WG description


The deterministic networking Working Group (detnet) will focus on the estab=
lishment and maintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-=
3 routed segments. Though only Layer-3 operations will be specified by the =
WG as Standard Track documents, the group will collaborate with IEEE802.1TS=
N, which designs the Layer-2 operations, to define a common paradigm, lever=
aging cross-participation and liaison work to maintain consistency. In that=
 common paradigm, a number of elements such as the host operation should be=
 agnostic to the organization of the multi-hop path.

The considered network will initially be of a moderate size, composed of mi=
xed Layer-2 / Layer-3 sub-networks of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts=
. A single administrative domain such as a campus, a Small/Home office Netw=
ork, or a controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to start with, and a=
pproaches that can be applied to the Internet at large will be favored.
The Working Group will initially specify the protocol elements that are req=
uired to enable an multi-hop path, and forward along that path with the det=
erministic properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jit=
ter, and high reliability. The work will apply to and only to flows that ca=
n be characterized in a manner that allows the network to 1) reserve the ap=
propriate resources for the flows in advance, and 2) release/reuse the reso=
urces when they are no more required. The work will cover the characterizat=
ion of flows, the tagging of packets, the required forwarding behaviors, as=
 well as the state that may need to be established in intermediate nodes; i=
t will not include end-to-end consideration such as transport protocols. Th=
is work focusses on flows and does not depend on the path setup protocol th=
at will be selected. The data models and flow tagging should be compatible =
with the similar work done at IEEE801.1TSN so they could be either directly=
 usable at both layers, or mappable in an unambiguous fashion.
The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Inte=
rnet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Rout=
ing and Security areas. As the work progresses, some of the items initially=
 considered the deterministic networking WG may be transferred to those wor=
king groups as deemed appropriate by all parties.

The WG will conclude this round with the selection of a solution paradigm a=
nd suggest a base protocol that can be applied or extended.
Work Items

- Deliverables:

  * An analysis of the needs in various deployment environments. 3-4 inform=
ational track documents which could include factory automation, grid automa=
tion, avionics and audio/video studios.

  * A generic problem statement including an analysis of the proposed solut=
ions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN.

  * A study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the defini=
tion of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (as per RF=
C 7346). For instance, the deterministic technology needs to be consistent =
over a Link- or a Realm-Local scope and achievable across technologies and =
layers over an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.

  * A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explore=
d, such as peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), centra=
l controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), connection to operations (app=
lication) controllers, and mixed scenarios, in relation to the generic scop=
ing of IP.
  * A standards track data flow characterization model document for use in =
flow reservation protocol. The model should be independent from the protoco=
l(s) that are selected from the solution taxonomy (e.g. an evolution of PCE=
P or RSVP).

  * A standards track flow identification document for use in packet forwar=
ding, with the specific application to at least classical IP, 6TiSCH track =
forwarding, and MPLS.

  * A standards track data model for the abstract state to be installed in =
the forwarding device and the associated packet forwarding behavior.

  The WG will conclude this round with the selection of a paradigm and a ba=
se protocol that can be applied or extended.


Cheers,

Pascal
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<div style=3D"direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: =
10pt;">Hi Pascal (A friend of Norm's is a friend of mine ;-)
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On the one hand my take is that at least half a sentence should be dev=
oted, given the depth of contribution of the Automotive community to the AV=
B standards, and that it is a hot topic in that industry: &nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&quot;With the explosion of demand for connectivity and multimedia in =
the automobile, the need for standards-based A/V networking that can be eas=
ily deployed has been growing. Ethernet AVB (Audio Video Bridging) has beco=
me one of the hottest topics in automotive
 connectivity. It is finding application in all elements of the car from he=
ad units, to rear seat entertainment modules, to amplifiers and camera modu=
les. Furthermore, existing vehicle control networks such as the LIN, CAN an=
d FlexRay standards are not designed
 to cover these increasing demands in terms of bandwidth and scalability th=
at we see with various kinds of Driver Assistance Systems (DAS).&quot; (<a =
href=3D"http://www.xzadium.com/blog/avb-emerging-technology-in-audio-video-=
transmission" target=3D"_blank">http://www.xzadium.com/blog/avb-emerging-te=
chnology-in-audio-video-transmission</a>)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But on the other hand, Automotive AVB systems tend to be closed system=
s, and thus perhaps are not as &quot;interesting&quot; to the IETF crowd (I=
 have no idea if this is true). Anyway if one feels it is worthwhile to add=
 a few more words, perhaps the above could
 provide some ideas.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Ethan.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px=
">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRpF106326" style=3D"direction: ltr;"><font face=3D"Tahoma" si=
ze=3D"2" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [pthubert=
@cisco.com]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 26, 2014 11:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Grossman, Ethan A.<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Thomas Watteyne; Jouni Korhonen; detnet@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div>Thanks Ethan!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We are actually listing &quot;vehicles&quot; in the proposed charter t=
ext to mean cars trains and buses control networks on top of avionics.&nbsp=
;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Should we have more emphasis?<br>
<br>
Pascal</div>
<div><br>
Le 26 sept. 2014 =E0 20:18, Grossman, Ethan A. &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eagros=
@dolby.com" target=3D"_blank">eagros@dolby.com</a>&gt; a =E9crit&nbsp;:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr; font-family:Tahoma; color:#000000; font-size:1=
0pt">A couple more very tiny typos:&nbsp;
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<p style=3D"margin:0in; font-family:Calibri; font-size:11.0pt">1) &quot;Onc=
e the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the sign=
aling elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elements to b=
e used identify the flows that are to be
 forwarded along that path. <font color=3D"#ff0000">the IETF&quot; (--&gt; =
The IETF).&nbsp;</font></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in; font-family:Calibri; font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"font-size:11pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in; font-family:Calibri; font-size:11.0pt">2) &quot;The=
 Working Group will initially specify the protocol elements that are requir=
ed to enable
<font color=3D"#ff0000">an multi-hop path&quot; (--&gt; a multi-hop path)</=
font></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in; font-family:Calibri; font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in; font-family:Calibri; font-size:11.0pt">3) No mentio=
n of automotive - assume that is intentional since not internet related?</p=
>
<p style=3D"margin:0in; font-family:Calibri; font-size:11.0pt"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in; font-family:Calibri; font-size:11.0pt">Ethan.</p>
<div style=3D"font-family:Times New Roman; color:#000000; font-size:16px">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRpF520136" style=3D"direction:ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=
=3D"2" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Thomas Watteyne [<a href=3D"mailto:wa=
tteyne@eecs.berkeley.edu" target=3D"_blank">watteyne@eecs.berkeley.edu</a>]=
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 26, 2014 11:02 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jouni Korhonen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Pascal Thubert (pthubert); <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">
detnet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">&#43;1
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Congratulations to all for the fantastic work, this will be a very goo=
d activity to have at the IETF.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>(very) minor typos:</div>
<div>-&nbsp;focusses -&gt;&nbsp;focuses</div>
<div>-&nbsp;IEEE801.1TSN -&gt;&nbsp;IEEE802.1TSN</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 3:57 AM, Jouni Korhonen =
<span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.=
korhonen@broadcom.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div>Thanks Pascal. Looks good to me now.&nbsp;<br>
<br>
<div>--&nbsp;</div>
<div>Jouni Korhonen</div>
<div>Broadcom</div>
<div><br>
</div>
(Sent from my mobile..)</div>
<div><br>
&quot;Pascal Thubert (pthubert)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pthubert@cisco.=
com" target=3D"_blank">pthubert@cisco.com</a>&gt; kirjoitti 26.9.2014 kello=
 13.15:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">detnet: &quot;determini=
stic networking&quot;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt; padding:0c=
m 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none; padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; col=
or:#1f497d">Background on deterministic networking
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">Operational Technology =
(OT) refers to industrial networks that are typically used for monitoring s=
ystems and supporting control loops, as well as movement
 detection systems for use in process control (i.e., process manufacturing)=
 and factory automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its differen=
t goals, OT has evolved in parallel but in a manner that is radically diffe=
rent from IT/ICT, focusing on highly
 secure, reliable and deterministic networks, with limited scalability over=
 a bounded area.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">The convergence of IT a=
nd OT technologies, also called the Industrial Internet, represents a major=
 evolution for both sides. The work has already started;
 in particular, the industrial automation space has been developing a numbe=
r of Ethernet-based replacements for existing digital control systems, ofte=
n not packet-based (=93fieldbus=94 technologies). These replacements are me=
ant to provide similar behavior as the
 incumbent protocols, and their common focus is to transport a fully charac=
terized flow over a well-controlled environment (i.e., a factory floor), wi=
th a bounded latency, extraordinarily low frame loss, and a very narrow jit=
ter. Examples of such protocols
 include PROFINET, ODVA Ethernet/IP, and EtherCAT.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">In parallel, the need f=
or determinism drove the formation of the Audio/Video Bridging (AVB) standa=
rds effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the professional and
 home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical applications than s=
ome industrial networks, AVB networks share the requirement for extremely l=
ow packet loss rates and guaranteed finite latency and jitter. Other instan=
ces of deterministic networks have
 arisen as well, for instance in the context of vehicles and avionics, such=
 as the mission-critical =93Avionics Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet=94 (AFDX=
), which was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standards.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">The success of the 802.=
1 AVB standards in the professional studio environment and the needs of the=
 industrial networking markets have led to the IEEE 802.1
 AVB Task Group becoming the Time-Sensitive Networking (TSN) Task Group (TG=
), with a much-expanded constituency from the industrial and vehicular mark=
ets. Along with this expansion, the networks in consideration are becoming =
larger and structured, and require
 deterministic forwarding beyond the LAN boundaries. For instance, Industri=
al Automation segregates the network along the broad lines of the Purdue En=
terprise Reference Architecture (PERA), using different technologies at eac=
h level, and public infrastructures
 such as Electricity Automation require deterministic properties over the W=
ide Area. The realization is now coming that the convergence of IT and OT n=
etworks requires Layer-3, as well as Layer-2, capabilities.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">In order to serve this =
extended requirement, the IETF and the IEEE must collaborate and define an =
abstract model that can be applicable both at Layer-2 and
 Layer-3, and along segments of different technologies. With this new work,=
 a path may span, for instance, across a (limited) number of 802.1 bridges =
and then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE802.1 b=
ridges may be operating at Layer-2
 over Ethernet whereas the IP routers may be 6TiSCH nodes operating at Laye=
r-2 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.15.4e MAC. The proposed model should en=
able a fully scheduled operation orchestrated by a central controller, as w=
ell as a more distributed operation
 with probably lesser capabilities. In any fashion, the model should not co=
mpromise the ability of a network to keep carrying the sorts of traffic tha=
t is already carried today.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">Once the abstract model=
 is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the signaling elements to be=
 used to establish a path and the tagging elements to be
 used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. the IETF=
 will also need to specify the necessary protocols, or protocol additions, =
based on relevant IETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH, to implem=
ent the selected model. As a result
 of this work, it will be possible to establish an multi-hop path over the =
IP network, for a particular flow with precise timing and throughput requir=
ements, and carry this particular flow along the multi-hop path with such c=
haracteristics as low latency and
 ultra-low jitter, duplication and elimination of packets over non-congruen=
t paths for a higher delivery ratio, and/or zero congestion loss. Depending=
 on the network capabilities and on the current state, requests to establis=
h a path by na end-node or a network
 management entity may be granted or rejected, and an existing path may be =
moved or removed.&nbsp;&nbsp;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt; padding:0c=
m 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none; padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; col=
or:#1f497d">WG description<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">The deterministic netwo=
rking Working Group (detnet) will focus on the establishment and maintenanc=
e of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-3 routed
 segments. Though only Layer-3 operations will be specified by the WG as St=
andard Track documents, the group will collaborate with IEEE802.1TSN, which=
 designs the Layer-2 operations, to define a common paradigm, leveraging cr=
oss-participation and liaison work
 to maintain consistency. In that common paradigm, a number of elements suc=
h as the host operation should be agnostic to the organization of the multi=
-hop path.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">The considered network =
will initially be of a moderate size, composed of mixed Layer-2 / Layer-3 s=
ub-networks of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts. A
 single administrative domain such as a campus, a Small/Home office Network=
, or a controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to start with, and appr=
oaches that can be applied to the Internet at large will be favored.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">The Working Group will =
initially specify the protocol elements that are required to enable an mult=
i-hop path, and forward along that path with the deterministic
 properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jitter, and h=
igh reliability. The work will apply to and only to flows that can be chara=
cterized in a manner that allows the network to 1) reserve the appropriate =
resources for the flows in advance,
 and 2) release/reuse the resources when they are no more required. The wor=
k will cover the characterization of flows, the tagging of packets, the req=
uired forwarding behaviors, as well as the state that may need to be establ=
ished in intermediate nodes; it
 will not include end-to-end consideration such as transport protocols. Thi=
s work focusses on flows and does not depend on the path setup protocol tha=
t will be selected. The data models and flow tagging should be compatible w=
ith the similar work done at IEEE801.1TSN
 so they could be either directly usable at both layers, or mappable in an =
unambiguous fashion.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">The WG will interface w=
ith other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Internet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Tra=
nsport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Routing
 and Security areas. As the work progresses, some of the items initially co=
nsidered the deterministic networking WG may be transferred to those workin=
g groups as deemed appropriate by all parties.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">The WG will conclude th=
is round with the selection of a solution paradigm and suggest a base proto=
col that can be applied or extended.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt; padding:0c=
m 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none; padding:0cm"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; col=
or:#1f497d">Work Items&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">- Deliverables:<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;* An analys=
is of the needs in various deployment environments. 3-4 informational track=
 documents which could include factory automation, grid automation,
 avionics and audio/video studios.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A generic=
 problem statement including an analysis of the proposed solutions of the r=
elated work at IEEE802.1TSN.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A study o=
f generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the definition of Link-=
Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (as per RFC 7346).
 For instance, the deterministic technology needs to be consistent over a L=
ink- or a Realm-Local scope and achievable across technologies and layers o=
ver an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A solutio=
n taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explored, such as pe=
er-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), central controller
 (along the lines of SDN or PCE), connection to operations (application) co=
ntrollers, and mixed scenarios, in relation to the generic scoping of IP.<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A standar=
ds track data flow characterization model document for use in flow reservat=
ion protocol. The model should be independent from the protocol(s)
 that are selected from the solution taxonomy (e.g. an evolution of PCEP or=
 RSVP).
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A standar=
ds track flow identification document for use in packet forwarding, with th=
e specific application to at least classical IP, 6TiSCH track forwarding,
 and MPLS. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;&nbsp;* A standar=
ds track data model for the abstract state to be installed in the forwardin=
g device and the associated packet forwarding behavior.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">&nbsp; The WG will conc=
lude this round with the selection of a paradigm and a base protocol that c=
an be applied or extended.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">Cheers,<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbs=
p;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1f497d">Pascal<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
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From: "Grossman, Ethan A." <eagros@dolby.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, "Gordon Bechtel [gordon.bechtel@symphonyteleca.com]" <gordon.bechtel@symphonyteleca.com>
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Hi Pascal,
I am not really the guy for details on AVB for Automotive, but I am includi=
ng Gordon Bechtel, who is the guy. Gordy, can you please have a look at thi=
s thread and comment, and bring in anyone else you think should be involved=
?
Thanks,
Ethan.
________________________________
From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [pthubert@cisco.com]
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2014 12:22 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A.
Cc: Thomas Watteyne; Jouni Korhonen; detnet@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal

Hello again Ethan:

Do you think that there is a chance to extend automotive requirements to in=
-board control systems as well as A/V? In understand that planes have a num=
ber of networks (at least 3) with different usages and safety requirements.=
 A generalizing sentence at the end of your text would help fit it in.

I also understand that there is an effort to converge some buses from speci=
fic technologies such as CAN (and/or interface them through gateway) onto m=
ore generic technologies such as 100Mbps Ethernet over unshielded twisted p=
airs (UTP).
http://www.automotive-eetimes.com/en/ip-and-ethernet-in-motor-vehicles.html=
?cmp_id=3D71&news_id=3D222902889<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=
=3Dhttp://www.automotive-eetimes.com/en/ip-and-ethernet-in-motor-vehicles.h=
tml?cmp_id%3D71%26news_id%3D222902889&k=3DUrRpYe6NZ%2F2y3fFcm1dpZA%3D%3D%0A=
&r=3DdPU%2BBUuPbDtLfSGFUfCLwQ%3D%3D%0A&m=3D0Us%2Byu2%2BRS2%2BawmIAHeVz3w4u%=
2FRUgYkkvMhLpks%2BWVA%3D%0A&s=3Dccd12b46c51558cb62e0f50640e3bea5ab605164787=
1420936d7f954f3ad5eb3>

Shall we need determinism in the Ethernet side? Shall we need deterministic=
 properties across the CAN/Ethernet gateway? Shall we need determinism to t=
he garage infrastructure to perform tests and diagnostics? Is there a case =
for deterministic wireless in such an environment dominated by metallic str=
uctures?

I think we need a problem statement draft for automotive alone. Would you b=
e willing to lead that effort?

Cheers,

Pascal

From: Grossman, Ethan A. [mailto:eagros@dolby.com]
Sent: samedi 27 septembre 2014 10:16
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
Cc: Thomas Watteyne; Jouni Korhonen; detnet@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal

Hi Pascal (A friend of Norm's is a friend of mine ;-)

On the one hand my take is that at least half a sentence should be devoted,=
 given the depth of contribution of the Automotive community to the AVB sta=
ndards, and that it is a hot topic in that industry:

"With the explosion of demand for connectivity and multimedia in the automo=
bile, the need for standards-based A/V networking that can be easily deploy=
ed has been growing. Ethernet AVB (Audio Video Bridging) has become one of =
the hottest topics in automotive connectivity. It is finding application in=
 all elements of the car from head units, to rear seat entertainment module=
s, to amplifiers and camera modules. Furthermore, existing vehicle control =
networks such as the LIN, CAN and FlexRay standards are not designed to cov=
er these increasing demands in terms of bandwidth and scalability that we s=
ee with various kinds of Driver Assistance Systems (DAS)." (http://www.xzad=
ium.com/blog/avb-emerging-technology-in-audio-video-transmission<https://ur=
ldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=3Dhttp://www.xzadium.com/blog/avb-emerging=
-technology-in-audio-video-transmission&k=3DUrRpYe6NZ%2F2y3fFcm1dpZA%3D%3D%=
0A&r=3DdPU%2BBUuPbDtLfSGFUfCLwQ%3D%3D%0A&m=3D0Us%2Byu2%2BRS2%2BawmIAHeVz3w4=
u%2FRUgYkkvMhLpks%2BWVA%3D%0A&s=3D2d803d4700207408064080bdaa15225ad07d69917=
7e4cbc0b51147a742fd3d13>)

But on the other hand, Automotive AVB systems tend to be closed systems, an=
d thus perhaps are not as "interesting" to the IETF crowd (I have no idea i=
f this is true). Anyway if one feels it is worthwhile to add a few more wor=
ds, perhaps the above could provide some ideas.

Best,
Ethan.

________________________________
From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [pthubert@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 11:52 PM
To: Grossman, Ethan A.
Cc: Thomas Watteyne; Jouni Korhonen; detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org=
>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal
Thanks Ethan!

We are actually listing "vehicles" in the proposed charter text to mean car=
s trains and buses control networks on top of avionics.

Should we have more emphasis?

Pascal

Le 26 sept. 2014 =E0 20:18, Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com<mailto:eag=
ros@dolby.com>> a =E9crit :
A couple more very tiny typos:


1) "Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify t=
he signaling elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elemen=
ts to be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. =
the IETF" (--> The IETF).



2) "The Working Group will initially specify the protocol elements that are=
 required to enable an multi-hop path" (--> a multi-hop path)



3) No mention of automotive - assume that is intentional since not internet=
 related?



Ethan.

________________________________
From: Thomas Watteyne [watteyne@eecs.berkeley.edu<mailto:watteyne@eecs.berk=
eley.edu>]
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 11:02 AM
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert); detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal
+1

Congratulations to all for the fantastic work, this will be a very good act=
ivity to have at the IETF.

(very) minor typos:
- focusses -> focuses
- IEEE801.1TSN -> IEEE802.1TSN

On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 3:57 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen@broadcom.co=
m<mailto:jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com>> wrote:
Thanks Pascal. Looks good to me now.
--
Jouni Korhonen
Broadcom

(Sent from my mobile..)

"Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com<mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>>=
 kirjoitti 26.9.2014 kello 13.15:
detnet: "deterministic networking"

Background on deterministic networking


Operational Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typicall=
y used for monitoring systems and supporting control loops, as well as move=
ment detection systems for use in process control (i.e., process manufactur=
ing) and factory automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its diff=
erent goals, OT has evolved in parallel but in a manner that is radically d=
ifferent from IT/ICT, focusing on highly secure, reliable and deterministic=
 networks, with limited scalability over a bounded area.

The convergence of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Inter=
net, represents a major evolution for both sides. The work has already star=
ted; in particular, the industrial automation space has been developing a n=
umber of Ethernet-based replacements for existing digital control systems, =
often not packet-based (=93fieldbus=94 technologies). These replacements ar=
e meant to provide similar behavior as the incumbent protocols, and their c=
ommon focus is to transport a fully characterized flow over a well-controll=
ed environment (i.e., a factory floor), with a bounded latency, extraordina=
rily low frame loss, and a very narrow jitter. Examples of such protocols i=
nclude PROFINET, ODVA Ethernet/IP, and EtherCAT.

In parallel, the need for determinism drove the formation of the Audio/Vide=
o Bridging (AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the profession=
al and home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical applications =
than some industrial networks, AVB networks share the requirement for extre=
mely low packet loss rates and guaranteed finite latency and jitter. Other =
instances of deterministic networks have arisen as well, for instance in th=
e context of vehicles and avionics, such as the mission-critical =93Avionic=
s Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet=94 (AFDX), which was designed as part of th=
e ARIC 664 standards.

The success of the 802.1 AVB standards in the professional studio environme=
nt and the needs of the industrial networking markets have led to the IEEE =
802.1 AVB Task Group becoming the Time-Sensitive Networking (TSN) Task Grou=
p (TG), with a much-expanded constituency from the industrial and vehicular=
 markets. Along with this expansion, the networks in consideration are beco=
ming larger and structured, and require deterministic forwarding beyond the=
 LAN boundaries. For instance, Industrial Automation segregates the network=
 along the broad lines of the Purdue Enterprise Reference Architecture (PER=
A), using different technologies at each level, and public infrastructures =
such as Electricity Automation require deterministic properties over the Wi=
de Area. The realization is now coming that the convergence of IT and OT ne=
tworks requires Layer-3, as well as Layer-2, capabilities.

In order to serve this extended requirement, the IETF and the IEEE must col=
laborate and define an abstract model that can be applicable both at Layer-=
2 and Layer-3, and along segments of different technologies. With this new =
work, a path may span, for instance, across a (limited) number of 802.1 bri=
dges and then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE80=
2.1 bridges may be operating at Layer-2 over Ethernet whereas the IP router=
s may be 6TiSCH nodes operating at Layer-2 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.=
15.4e MAC. The proposed model should enable a fully scheduled operation orc=
hestrated by a central controller, as well as a more distributed operation =
with probably lesser capabilities. In any fashion, the model should not com=
promise the ability of a network to keep carrying the sorts of traffic that=
 is already carried today.

Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the s=
ignaling elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elements t=
o be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. the =
IETF will also need to specify the necessary protocols, or protocol additio=
ns, based on relevant IETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH, to im=
plement the selected model. As a result of this work, it will be possible t=
o establish an multi-hop path over the IP network, for a particular flow wi=
th precise timing and throughput requirements, and carry this particular fl=
ow along the multi-hop path with such characteristics as low latency and ul=
tra-low jitter, duplication and elimination of packets over non-congruent p=
aths for a higher delivery ratio, and/or zero congestion loss. Depending on=
 the network capabilities and on the current state, requests to establish a=
 path by na end-node or a network management entity may be granted or rejec=
ted, and an existing path may be moved or removed.


WG description


The deterministic networking Working Group (detnet) will focus on the estab=
lishment and maintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-=
3 routed segments. Though only Layer-3 operations will be specified by the =
WG as Standard Track documents, the group will collaborate with IEEE802.1TS=
N, which designs the Layer-2 operations, to define a common paradigm, lever=
aging cross-participation and liaison work to maintain consistency. In that=
 common paradigm, a number of elements such as the host operation should be=
 agnostic to the organization of the multi-hop path.

The considered network will initially be of a moderate size, composed of mi=
xed Layer-2 / Layer-3 sub-networks of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and hosts=
. A single administrative domain such as a campus, a Small/Home office Netw=
ork, or a controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to start with, and a=
pproaches that can be applied to the Internet at large will be favored.
The Working Group will initially specify the protocol elements that are req=
uired to enable an multi-hop path, and forward along that path with the det=
erministic properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low jit=
ter, and high reliability. The work will apply to and only to flows that ca=
n be characterized in a manner that allows the network to 1) reserve the ap=
propriate resources for the flows in advance, and 2) release/reuse the reso=
urces when they are no more required. The work will cover the characterizat=
ion of flows, the tagging of packets, the required forwarding behaviors, as=
 well as the state that may need to be established in intermediate nodes; i=
t will not include end-to-end consideration such as transport protocols. Th=
is work focusses on flows and does not depend on the path setup protocol th=
at will be selected. The data models and flow tagging should be compatible =
with the similar work done at IEEE801.1TSN so they could be either directly=
 usable at both layers, or mappable in an unambiguous fashion.
The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Inte=
rnet (e.g. 6TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management, Rout=
ing and Security areas. As the work progresses, some of the items initially=
 considered the deterministic networking WG may be transferred to those wor=
king groups as deemed appropriate by all parties.

The WG will conclude this round with the selection of a solution paradigm a=
nd suggest a base protocol that can be applied or extended.
Work Items

- Deliverables:

  * An analysis of the needs in various deployment environments. 3-4 inform=
ational track documents which could include factory automation, grid automa=
tion, avionics and audio/video studios.

  * A generic problem statement including an analysis of the proposed solut=
ions of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN.

  * A study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the defini=
tion of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (as per RF=
C 7346). For instance, the deterministic technology needs to be consistent =
over a Link- or a Realm-Local scope and achievable across technologies and =
layers over an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IPv4.

  * A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explore=
d, such as peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), centra=
l controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), connection to operations (app=
lication) controllers, and mixed scenarios, in relation to the generic scop=
ing of IP.
  * A standards track data flow characterization model document for use in =
flow reservation protocol. The model should be independent from the protoco=
l(s) that are selected from the solution taxonomy (e.g. an evolution of PCE=
P or RSVP).

  * A standards track flow identification document for use in packet forwar=
ding, with the specific application to at least classical IP, 6TiSCH track =
forwarding, and MPLS.

  * A standards track data model for the abstract state to be installed in =
the forwarding device and the associated packet forwarding behavior.

  The WG will conclude this round with the selection of a paradigm and a ba=
se protocol that can be applied or extended.


Cheers,

Pascal
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</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" fpstyle=3D"1" ocsi=3D"0=
">
<div style=3D"direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: =
10pt;">Hi Pascal,&nbsp;
<div>I am not really the guy for details on AVB for Automotive, but I am in=
cluding Gordon Bechtel, who is the guy. Gordy, can you please have a look a=
t this thread and comment, and bring in anyone else you think should be inv=
olved?&nbsp;</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Ethan.<br>
<div style=3D"font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px=
">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRpF483363" style=3D"direction: ltr;"><font face=3D"Tahoma" si=
ze=3D"2" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [pthubert=
@cisco.com]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 29, 2014 12:22 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Grossman, Ethan A.<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Thomas Watteyne; Jouni Korhonen; detnet@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Hello again Ethan:</spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Do you think that there=
 is a chance to extend automotive requirements to in-board control systems =
as well as A/V? In understand that planes have a number
 of networks (at least 3) with different usages and safety requirements. A =
generalizing sentence at the end of your text would help fit it in.</span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">I also understand that =
there is an effort to converge some buses from specific technologies such a=
s CAN (and/or interface them through gateway) onto more
 generic technologies such as 100Mbps Ethernet over unshielded twisted pair=
s (UTP).</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D"><a href=3D"https://urld=
efense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=3Dhttp://www.automotive-eetimes.com/en/ip-an=
d-ethernet-in-motor-vehicles.html?cmp_id%3D71%26news_id%3D222902889&amp;k=
=3DUrRpYe6NZ%2F2y3fFcm1dpZA%3D%3D%0A&amp;r=3DdPU%2BBUuPbDtLfSGFUfCLwQ%3D%3D=
%0A&amp;m=3D0Us%2Byu2%2BRS2%2BawmIAHeVz3w4u%2FRUgYkkvMhLpks%2BWVA%3D%0A&amp=
;s=3Dccd12b46c51558cb62e0f50640e3bea5ab6051647871420936d7f954f3ad5eb3" targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://www.automotive-eetimes.com/en/ip-and-ethernet-in-motor=
-vehicles.html?cmp_id=3D71&amp;news_id=3D222902889</a>
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Shall we need determini=
sm in the Ethernet side? Shall we need deterministic properties across the =
CAN/Ethernet gateway? Shall we need determinism to the garage
 infrastructure to perform tests and diagnostics? Is there a case for deter=
ministic wireless in such an environment dominated by metallic structures?<=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">I think we need a probl=
em statement draft for automotive alone. Would you be willing to lead that =
effort?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Cheers,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Pascal</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid blue 1.5pt; padding:0cm 0cm 0c=
m 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Grossm=
an, Ethan A. [mailto:eagros@dolby.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> samedi 27 septembre 2014 10:16<br>
<b>To:</b> Pascal Thubert (pthubert)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Thomas Watteyne; Jouni Korhonen; detnet@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">Hi Pascal (A friend of Nor=
m's is a friend of mine ;-)
</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">On the one hand my take is=
 that at least half a sentence should be devoted, given the depth of contri=
bution of the Automotive community to the AVB standards,
 and that it is a hot topic in that industry: &nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&quot;With the explosion o=
f demand for connectivity and multimedia in the automobile, the need for st=
andards-based A/V networking that can be easily deployed has
 been growing. Ethernet AVB (Audio Video Bridging) has become one of the ho=
ttest topics in automotive connectivity. It is finding application in all e=
lements of the car from head units, to rear seat entertainment modules, to =
amplifiers and camera modules. Furthermore,
 existing vehicle control networks such as the LIN, CAN and FlexRay standar=
ds are not designed to cover these increasing demands in terms of bandwidth=
 and scalability that we see with various kinds of Driver Assistance System=
s (DAS).&quot; (<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=3Dhtt=
p://www.xzadium.com/blog/avb-emerging-technology-in-audio-video-transmissio=
n&amp;k=3DUrRpYe6NZ%2F2y3fFcm1dpZA%3D%3D%0A&amp;r=3DdPU%2BBUuPbDtLfSGFUfCLw=
Q%3D%3D%0A&amp;m=3D0Us%2Byu2%2BRS2%2BawmIAHeVz3w4u%2FRUgYkkvMhLpks%2BWVA%3D=
%0A&amp;s=3D2d803d4700207408064080bdaa15225ad07d699177e4cbc0b51147a742fd3d1=
3" target=3D"_blank">http://www.xzadium.com/blog/avb-emerging-technology-in=
-audio-video-transmission</a>)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">But on the other hand, Aut=
omotive AVB systems tend to be closed systems, and thus perhaps are not as =
&quot;interesting&quot; to the IETF crowd (I have no idea if this
 is true). Anyway if one feels it is worthwhile to add a few more words, pe=
rhaps the above could provide some ideas.&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">Best,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">Ethan.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 style=3D"color:black">
<hr size=3D"3" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"divRpF106326">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color=
:black">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black"> Pascal Thubert (pthubert=
) [pthubert@cisco.com]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 26, 2014 11:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Grossman, Ethan A.<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Thomas Watteyne; Jouni Korhonen; <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">
detnet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Thanks Ethan!</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">We are actually listing =
&quot;vehicles&quot; in the proposed charter text to mean cars trains and b=
uses control networks on top of avionics.&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Should we have more emph=
asis?<br>
<br>
</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"color:black">Pascal</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"FR" sty=
le=3D"color:black"><br>
Le 26 sept. 2014 =E0 20:18, Grossman, Ethan A. &lt;</span><span style=3D"co=
lor:black"><a href=3D"mailto:eagros@dolby.com" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=
=3D"FR">eagros@dolby.com</span></a></span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"color:=
black">&gt; a =E9crit&nbsp;:</span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">A couple more very tiny ty=
pos:&nbsp;
</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">1=
) &quot;Once the abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to speci=
fy the signaling elements to be used to establish a path and
 the tagging elements to be used identify the flows that are to be forwarde=
d along that path.
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;; color:red">the IETF&quot; (--&gt; The IETF).&nbsp;</sp=
an><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;; color:black"></span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&=
nbsp;&nbsp;</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">2=
) &quot;The Working Group will initially specify the protocol elements that=
 are required to enable
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;; color:red">an multi-hop path&quot; (--&gt; a multi-hop=
 path)</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black"></span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&=
nbsp;</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">3=
) No mention of automotive - assume that is intentional since not internet =
related?</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&=
nbsp;</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">E=
than.</span></p>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 style=3D"color:black">
<hr size=3D"3" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"divRpF520136">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color=
:black">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black"> Thomas Watteyne [<a href=
=3D"mailto:watteyne@eecs.berkeley.edu" target=3D"_blank">watteyne@eecs.berk=
eley.edu</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 26, 2014 11:02 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jouni Korhonen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Pascal Thubert (pthubert); <a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">
detnet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Detnet] almost final charter proposal</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&#43;1 </span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Congratulations to all f=
or the fantastic work, this will be a very good activity to have at the IET=
F.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">(very) minor typos:</spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">-&nbsp;focusses -&gt;&nb=
sp;focuses</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">-&nbsp;IEEE801.1TSN -&gt=
;&nbsp;IEEE802.1TSN</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at =
3:57 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com" =
target=3D"_blank">jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"color:=
black">Thanks Pascal. Looks good to me now.&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">--&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Jouni Korhonen</span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Broadcom</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">(Sent from my mobile..)<=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"color:=
black"><br>
&quot;Pascal Thubert (pthubert)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pthubert@cisco.=
com" target=3D"_blank">pthubert@cisco.com</a>&gt; kirjoitti 26.9.2014 kello=
 13.15:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">detnet: &quo=
t;deterministic networking&quot;
</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt; padding:0c=
m 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Background o=
n deterministic networking
</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Operational =
Technology (OT) refers to industrial networks that are typically used for m=
onitoring systems and supporting control loops, as well as
 movement detection systems for use in process control (i.e., process manuf=
acturing) and factory automation (i.e., discrete manufacturing). Due to its=
 different goals, OT has evolved in parallel but in a manner that is radica=
lly different from IT/ICT, focusing
 on highly secure, reliable and deterministic networks, with limited scalab=
ility over a bounded area.</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">The converge=
nce of IT and OT technologies, also called the Industrial Internet, represe=
nts a major evolution for both sides. The work has already
 started; in particular, the industrial automation space has been developin=
g a number of Ethernet-based replacements for existing digital control syst=
ems, often not packet-based (=93fieldbus=94 technologies). These replacemen=
ts are meant to provide similar behavior
 as the incumbent protocols, and their common focus is to transport a fully=
 characterized flow over a well-controlled environment (i.e., a factory flo=
or), with a bounded latency, extraordinarily low frame loss, and a very nar=
row jitter. Examples of such protocols
 include PROFINET, ODVA Ethernet/IP, and EtherCAT.</span><span style=3D"col=
or:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">In parallel,=
 the need for determinism drove the formation of the Audio/Video Bridging (=
AVB) standards effort of IEEE 802.1, destined to the professional
 and home audio/video markets. While aimed at less critical applications th=
an some industrial networks, AVB networks share the requirement for extreme=
ly low packet loss rates and guaranteed finite latency and jitter. Other in=
stances of deterministic networks
 have arisen as well, for instance in the context of vehicles and avionics,=
 such as the mission-critical =93Avionics Full-Duplex Switched Ethernet=94 =
(AFDX), which was designed as part of the ARIC 664 standards.
</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">The success =
of the 802.1 AVB standards in the professional studio environment and the n=
eeds of the industrial networking markets have led to the
 IEEE 802.1 AVB Task Group becoming the Time-Sensitive Networking (TSN) Tas=
k Group (TG), with a much-expanded constituency from the industrial and veh=
icular markets. Along with this expansion, the networks in consideration ar=
e becoming larger and structured,
 and require deterministic forwarding beyond the LAN boundaries. For instan=
ce, Industrial Automation segregates the network along the broad lines of t=
he Purdue Enterprise Reference Architecture (PERA), using different technol=
ogies at each level, and public
 infrastructures such as Electricity Automation require deterministic prope=
rties over the Wide Area. The realization is now coming that the convergenc=
e of IT and OT networks requires Layer-3, as well as Layer-2, capabilities.
</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">In order to =
serve this extended requirement, the IETF and the IEEE must collaborate and=
 define an abstract model that can be applicable both at Layer-2
 and Layer-3, and along segments of different technologies. With this new w=
ork, a path may span, for instance, across a (limited) number of 802.1 brid=
ges and then a (limited) number of IP routers. In that example, the IEEE802=
.1 bridges may be operating at Layer-2
 over Ethernet whereas the IP routers may be 6TiSCH nodes operating at Laye=
r-2 and/or Layer-3 over the IEEE802.15.4e MAC. The proposed model should en=
able a fully scheduled operation orchestrated by a central controller, as w=
ell as a more distributed operation
 with probably lesser capabilities. In any fashion, the model should not co=
mpromise the ability of a network to keep carrying the sorts of traffic tha=
t is already carried today.
</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Once the abs=
tract model is agreed upon, the IETF will need to specify the signaling ele=
ments to be used to establish a path and the tagging elements
 to be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path. th=
e IETF will also need to specify the necessary protocols, or protocol addit=
ions, based on relevant IETF technologies such as PCE, MPLS and 6TiSCH, to =
implement the selected model. As
 a result of this work, it will be possible to establish an multi-hop path =
over the IP network, for a particular flow with precise timing and throughp=
ut requirements, and carry this particular flow along the multi-hop path wi=
th such characteristics as low latency
 and ultra-low jitter, duplication and elimination of packets over non-cong=
ruent paths for a higher delivery ratio, and/or zero congestion loss. Depen=
ding on the network capabilities and on the current state, requests to esta=
blish a path by na end-node or a
 network management entity may be granted or rejected, and an existing path=
 may be moved or removed.&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt; padding:0c=
m 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">WG descripti=
on</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">The determin=
istic networking Working Group (detnet) will focus on the establishment and=
 maintenance of multi-hop paths over Layer-2 Bridged and Layer-3
 routed segments. Though only Layer-3 operations will be specified by the W=
G as Standard Track documents, the group will collaborate with IEEE802.1TSN=
, which designs the Layer-2 operations, to define a common paradigm, levera=
ging cross-participation and liaison
 work to maintain consistency. In that common paradigm, a number of element=
s such as the host operation should be agnostic to the organization of the =
multi-hop path.
</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">The consider=
ed network will initially be of a moderate size, composed of mixed Layer-2 =
/ Layer-3 sub-networks of IEEE802.1 bridges, routers, and
 hosts. A single administrative domain such as a campus, a Small/Home offic=
e Network, or a controlled Wide Area Network will be assumed to start with,=
 and approaches that can be applied to the Internet at large will be favore=
d.</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">The Working =
Group will initially specify the protocol elements that are required to ena=
ble an multi-hop path, and forward along that path with the
 deterministic properties of controlled latency, low packet loss, ultra-low=
 jitter, and high reliability. The work will apply to and only to flows tha=
t can be characterized in a manner that allows the network to 1) reserve th=
e appropriate resources for the
 flows in advance, and 2) release/reuse the resources when they are no more=
 required. The work will cover the characterization of flows, the tagging o=
f packets, the required forwarding behaviors, as well as the state that may=
 need to be established in intermediate
 nodes; it will not include end-to-end consideration such as transport prot=
ocols. This work focusses on flows and does not depend on the path setup pr=
otocol that will be selected. The data models and flow tagging should be co=
mpatible with the similar work done
 at IEEE801.1TSN so they could be either directly usable at both layers, or=
 mappable in an unambiguous fashion.</span><span style=3D"color:black"></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">The WG will =
interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF in the Internet (e.g. 6=
TiSCH), Transport (e.g. TSVWG), Operations and Management,
 Routing and Security areas. As the work progresses, some of the items init=
ially considered the deterministic networking WG may be transferred to thos=
e working groups as deemed appropriate by all parties.</span><span style=3D=
"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">The WG will =
conclude this round with the selection of a solution paradigm and suggest a=
 base protocol that can be applied or extended.</span><span style=3D"color:=
black"></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt; padding:0c=
m 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Work Items&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">- Deliverabl=
es:</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
* An analysis of the needs in various deployment environments. 3-4 informat=
ional track documents which could include factory automation, grid automati=
on,
 avionics and audio/video studios.</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
* A generic problem statement including an analysis of the proposed solutio=
ns of the related work at IEEE802.1TSN.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
* A study of generic scoping. For IPv6, the study will include the definiti=
on of Link-Local, Realm-Local and Admin-Local scoped operation (as per
 RFC 7346). For instance, the deterministic technology needs to be consiste=
nt over a Link- or a Realm-Local scope and achievable across technologies a=
nd layers over an Admin-Local scope. Similar scoping will be studied for IP=
v4.</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
* A solution taxonomy, where potential solution paradigms will be explored,=
 such as peer-to-peer protocols (along the lines of MSRP or RSVP), central
 controller (along the lines of SDN or PCE), connection to operations (appl=
ication) controllers, and mixed scenarios, in relation to the generic scopi=
ng of IP.</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
* A standards track data flow characterization model document for use in fl=
ow reservation protocol. The model should be independent from the protocol(=
s)
 that are selected from the solution taxonomy (e.g. an evolution of PCEP or=
 RSVP).
</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
* A standards track flow identification document for use in packet forwardi=
ng, with the specific application to at least classical IP, 6TiSCH track
 forwarding, and MPLS. </span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
* A standards track data model for the abstract state to be installed in th=
e forwarding device and the associated packet forwarding behavior.
</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp; The W=
G will conclude this round with the selection of a paradigm and a base prot=
ocol that can be applied or extended.
</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Cheers,</spa=
n><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Pascal</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">________________________=
_______________________<br>
detnet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">detnet@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=3Dhttps://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/detnet&amp;k=3DUrRpYe6NZ%2F2y3fFcm1dpZA%3D%3D%0A&amp;r=
=3DoIBsd6zVa3NydYM8E7NmP5Ygimfr0ucB13K%2FaVFvYLE%3D%0A&amp;m=3D5Z3Md9DQuyTl=
9Lhy3ThHYKiHUoaudmhRwwCNgTWLQ5g%3D%0A&amp;s=3D6c7a1ae910ebfd83487812a7e0597=
7b2f2776396e8aa2a5afdf53ba7813bb38b" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/detnet</a></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"color:=
black"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
detnet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:detnet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">detnet@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=3Dhttps://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/detnet&amp;k=3DUrRpYe6NZ%2F2y3fFcm1dpZA%3D%3D%0A&amp;r=
=3DoIBsd6zVa3NydYM8E7NmP5Ygimfr0ucB13K%2FaVFvYLE%3D%0A&amp;m=3D5Z3Md9DQuyTl=
9Lhy3ThHYKiHUoaudmhRwwCNgTWLQ5g%3D%0A&amp;s=3D6c7a1ae910ebfd83487812a7e0597=
7b2f2776396e8aa2a5afdf53ba7813bb38b" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/detnet</a></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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