From nobody Tue Mar 1 04:59:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764BC1B2B7C for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 04:59:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06WHz8eF-is7 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 04:58:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66DBC1B2BA6 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 04:58:57 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f79096d000002f68-fd-56d5920f2abb Received: from ESESSHC012.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.54]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 93.C6.12136.F0295D65; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 13:58:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB103.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.68]) by ESESSHC012.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.54]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 1 Mar 2016 13:58:54 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Varga_A?= To: Jouni Korhonen , "Grossman, Ethan A." , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] DetNet Use Case Draft 05 (comments on chapter-6 and chapter-7) Thread-Index: AdFzFQ01sU/3SCCwTTClzPHgSpvdBQAFMUeAACKd89A= Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 12:58:54 +0000 Message-ID: <3002A87EA61E0A4DB56546AC16A0D5171EF20D37@ESESSMB103.ericsson.se> References: <3002A87EA61E0A4DB56546AC16A0D5171EF20886@ESESSMB103.ericsson.se> <56D4AE0B.7030709@broadcom.com> In-Reply-To: <56D4AE0B.7030709@broadcom.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.20] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmphkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGbHdTJd/0tUwg/WnFCx+f5rNYtH3eDu7 xcMvCQ7MHrPun2Xz2DfxCIvHkiU/mQKYo7hsUlJzMstSi/TtErgyJv3pYymYWlWxfq1BA+PO uC5GDg4JAROJf38Yuxg5gUwxiQv31rN1MXJxCAkcZpSYf2MPO4SziFHizIFjYFVsAq4Snzse glWJCDQwSvQseMUGkhAWCJO4dXA+E4gtIhAu0b30JBuEbSWxaNZDsDiLgIpEx6lDbCCbeQV8 Ja6+4QcJCwnkS3z5dJ0VxOYU0JFonr6NGcRmBLro+6k1YK3MAuISt55AjJcQEJBYsuc8M4Qt KvHy8T9WCFtR4ur05VD1ehI3pk5hg7C1JZYtfA1WzysgKHFy5hOWCYyis5CMnYWkZRaSlllI WhYwsqxiFC1OLU7KTTcy0kstykwuLs7P08tLLdnECIybg1t+G+xgfPnc8RCjAAejEg/vBtar YUKsiWXFlbmHGCU4mJVEeC9NAArxpiRWVqUW5ccXleakFh9ilOZgURLnZf10OUxIID2xJDU7 NbUgtQgmy8TBKdXAqMahscy7/uXzpib7fSfLLAyW31z6YH7SvYtTnryzM7yXltQS8LCr3+Vu xPHU9Qbp59Ku7ylvuvasbX2wwnzjnflv5y69X7fX1dXyooPZDV214JavLy8cYO3/4XnoQHle kNOh0phIPtVKhq+XeEXNt5f9C9OKKpCeeWzesjtHrt5Vv6M6s8PljhJLcUaioRZzUXEiAO7n XyqXAgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Use Case Draft 05 (comments on chapter-6 and chapter-7) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 12:59:01 -0000 Hi Jouni, Many thanks for the feedback. Just for clarification copied here the proble= matic points for easier follow: - 6.1.1. Network Architecture: CPRI reference I agree with You that "The text does not have to be in line with CPRI coope= ration requirements.". However I think referring to CPRI cooperation numbers would add value as it= is representing a widely accepted fronthaul design parameter. We could also refer to it:=20 http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2015/cm-CPRI-requirements-1115-v0= 1.pdf I like your example numbers also as it shows that there are many possible a= llocation options of the available=20 time budget (e.g. 3ms in LTE) between processing and transport. There are m= any recent discussions=20 around this in the industry, so other numbers are also floating around. - 6.1.2. Time Synchronization Requirements: Removal of PDV I agree that text here is not only about CPRI ("Since the text is not only = about CPRI I don't think removing this is OK. ") But all the bullet points with reference to numerical values from 3GPP spec= ification are naming explicitly TAE. If the fronthaul network is packet based, then PDV can be derived from thos= e TAE values. Therefore I think reference to TAE is more appropriate. - 6.1.3. Time-Sensitive Stream Requirements: congestion I agree that fronthaul streams have to have zero packet loss due to congest= ion. However network failures may cause congestion situation even in a well-designed network. So I would list conge= stion as a possible cause of packet loss, but fully agree that under normal circumstances congestion should not hit f= ronthaul streams. Cheers Bala'zs -----Original Message----- From: Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com]=20 Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 9:46 PM To: Bal=E1zs Varga A; Grossman, Ethan A.; detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Use Case Draft 05 (comments on chapter-6 and c= hapter-7) Hi, I'll respond to some points here since I think large junks of text in some = form under Section 6. originally came from me. 2/29/2016, 9:17 AM, Bal=E1zs Varga A kirjoitti: > > Hi, > > great work on the use-case document to make it converged. > > I have several comments on chapter 6 (Cellular Radio Use Cases) and > > chapter 7 (Cellular Coordinated Multipoint Processing (CoMP)). > > My major comment would be that the group should consider to merge=20 > these chapters: > > (i) both of them are dealing with cellular networks and (ii) COMP is a=20 > particular scenario for > > Midhaul. So from use-case perspective they are highly related and the=20 > motivation > > for DetNet is the same. > > *@Ethan: I would be happy to provide an initial merged text if that is > the* > > *direction and You would find it helpful. * > > Further comments/clarifications/proposals are below. > > Cheers Bala'zs > > Ps: detailed comments are: > > *Comment1, 6.1.1. Network Architecture* > > Text below Figure 7. deals with transport delay requirements and=20 > should have a new sub-chapter. > > // > > /Proposed change in the text would result as: / > > /"6.1.2. Delay Requirements"/ > This is OK. > // > > *Comment2, 6.1.1. Network Architecture* > > Text below Figure 7. contains example numbers that are not inline > > with CPRI Cooperation recommendations. The widely used requirement > > for transport of CPRI signal is 100 usec one-way-delay. > > Therefore text should reflect a more realistic networking scenario. > The text does not have to be in line with CPRI cooperation requirements.=20 And intentionally does not state that here. > > /Proposed change in the text would result as: / > > /"The available processing time for Fronthaul networking overhead is/ > > /limited to the available time after the baseband processing of the/ > > /radio frame has completed. For example in Long Term Evolution (LTE)/ > > /radio, processing of a radio frame is allocated 3ms, but typically/ > > /the processing use most of it and allows only a small fraction / > > /to be used by the Fronthaul network (100usec one way delay for CPRI).=20 > This / > > /ultimately determines the distance the remote radio heads can be / > > /located from the base stations (100us equals roughly 20 km of optical=20 > / > > /fiber-based transport). / > > // > > /Considering packet based transport this transport allocated time / > > /(i.e. 100 usec) is consumed by all nodes and buffering between the / > > /remote radio head and the baseband processing unit, plus the / > > /distance-incurred delay."/ > I don't think this change is appropriate here. It can be, though, in the pa= rt of text that actually refers to CPRI. > // > > *Comment3, 6.1.2. Time Synchronization Requirements * > > As today's Fronthaul networks are not packet based it is misleading > Well.. OBSAI is packet based and deployed. > > to write here about Packet Delay Variation. Packetization is for > > future transport solution of Fronthaul. Therefore PDV reference is > > proposed to be eliminated in this chapter. > Since the text is not only about CPRI I don't think removing this is OK.=20 Clarifying that there are fronthauls where the text does not apply is fine. > > /Proposed change in the text would result as: / > > /"Timing Alignment Error:/ > > /Timing Alignment Error (TEA) is problematic to Fronthaul / > > /networks and must be minimized. If the transport network cannot / > > /guarantee low enough TEA then additional buffering has to be / > > /introduced at the edges of the network to buffer out the jitter. / > > /Buffering is not desirable as it reduces the total available delay / > > /budget."/ > > *Comment4, 6.1.3. Time-Sensitive Stream Requirements* > > Text deals with loss requirements, so rename chapter: > > /"6.1.3. Loss Requirements"/ > > *Comment5, 6.1.3. Time-Sensitive Stream Requirements* > > There are multiple reasons why a packet gets lost during transport. > > BER is just one of the reasons. Others are e.g. buffer overflow, > > network failure, rerouting. Text also mixes requirements and possible > > solutions, therefore some cleaning would be proposed. > Cleaning the text here is good. However, I think buffer overflow as a reaso= n for packet loss in fronthaul is non-starter. That means there is somethin= g really wrong in the deployment. > > /Proposed change in the text would result as: / > > /"Fronthaul (and Midhaul) networks assume almost error-free / > > /transport. Errors may result in reset of radio interfaces, what may / > > /cause broken radio connectivity for mobile customers or decremented / > > /throughput. / > > // > > /For packetized Fronthaul and Midhaul connections packet loss may be / > > /caused by BER, congestion and network failure scenarios./ > Congestion in a case of midhaul yes but not really in fronthaul. If your fr= onthaul network is dimentsioned to face congestion with fronthaul connectio= ns you are in a trouble. > > // > > /Current tool-kits to elminate packet losses have serious challenges / > > /in case of Fronthaul and Midhaul networks. Retransmitting lost / > > /packets and/or using forward error correction (FEC) to circumvent bit=20 > / > > /errors is practically impossible due to the additional delay / > > /incurred. Using redundant streams for better guarantees for delivery=20 > / > > /is also practically impossible in many cases due to high bandwidth / > > /requirements of Fronthaul and Midhaul networks. Protection switching=20 > / > > /is also a candidate but current technologies for the path switch are=20 > / > > /too slow to avoid reset of mobile interfaces."/ > This cleanup except for the congestion is fine. > > // > > *Comment6, 6.2. Cellular Radio Networks Today* > > So far text deals only with Fronthaul and Midhaul networks. Backhaul > > was not considered to require DetNet functionalities. > > Statement in this chapter should refer for which type of the Haul > > networks they are valid. Creating sub-chapters could make it more > > clear (i.e. Fronthaul needs optical transport, Mid/Backhaul can be=20 > done > > over packet networks). > Good point. Should be corrected. > > /Proposed change in the text would result as:/ > > /"6.2.1 Fronthauls/ > > /Today's Fronthaul networks typically consist of:/ > > /o Dedicated point-to-point fiber connection is common/ > > /o Proprietary protocols and framings/ > > /o Custom equipment and no real networking/ > > /Current solutions for Fronthaul are direct optical cables or WDM / > > /connections./ > Ok. > > // > > // > > /6.2.2 Midhauls and Backhauls/ > > /!!! All further statements are valid for Mid- and Backhaul networks / > > /used todays. That should be made clear by changing "cellular domain"=20 > / > > /to Mid- and Backhaul" in the remaining text of this chapter. !!!/ > > /"/ > Ok. > > // > > *Comment7, 6.3. Cellular Radio Networks Future* > > This sub-chapter is somewhat unstructured. Two key messages should be > > named more explicitly as it is done in current text: > > - Not all "cellular radio network" traffic will be IP, some of them > > will remain at lower layer (e.g. Ethernet based). DetNet solutions > > must address all of them with the same tool-kit and allow of their > > transport simultaneously. > > - All form of xHaul networks will need some form of DetNet solutions. > > In addition to Fronthaul and Midhaul connections with the advent of > > 5G some traffic of the Backhaul will also have DetNet requirements > > (e.g. traffic belonging to time critical 5G applications). > > /Proposed additional text at the beginning of the sub-chapter: / > > /" Future Cellular Radio Networks will be based on a mix of different=20 > xHaul networks* *(xHaul =3D front-, mid- and backhaul). Therefore=20 > transport networks should be able to / > > /support all of them simultaneously. It is already envisioned today,=20 > that:/ > > /o Not all "cellular radio network" traffic will be IP, some of them / > > /will remain at lower layer (e.g. Ethernet based). DetNet solutions / > > /must address all **traffic types (L2, L3) with the same tool-kit and=20 > / > > /allow of their transport simultaneously./ > > /o All form of **xHaul networks will need some form of DetNet=20 > solutions. / > > /In addition to Fronthaul and Midhaul connections with the advent of / > > /5G some traffic of the Backhaul will as well have DetNet requirements=20 > / > > /(e.g. traffic belonging to time critical 5G applications). / > > /"/ > This is a good piece of text to add. > > // > > *Comment8, 6.4. Cellular Radio Networks Ask* > > General statements are fine, but Fronthaul related bullet points are=20 > for further discussion. > > Therefore proposed to be deleted. > > /Proposal: delete text starting with "Mapping the Fronthaul=20 > requirements to IETF DetNet ..."/ > Ok. Thanks for a very good review, Jouni > > // > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Grossman,=20 > Ethan A. > Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 11:02 PM > To: detnet@ietf.org > Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Use Case Draft 05 > > Hi Folks, > > This version updates the Wireless for Industrial section to match the=20 > accepted format. > > Note that this use case is different than the others in that its=20 > intent is not only to present "another application for DetNet" but=20 > also to point out places where the needs for protocol development for=20 > DetNet and the 6TiSCH wireless standard overlap. Thus this section=20 > highlights these potential overlaps such that we can eventually=20 > determine which are "in scope" for DetNet. > > Ethan. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20 > internet-drafts@ietf.org > > Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 1:42 PM > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > > Cc: detnet@ietf.org > > Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-05.txt > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts=20 > directories. > > This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking of the IETF. > > Title : Deterministic Networking Use Cases > > Authors : Ethan Grossman > > Craig Gunther > > Pascal Thubert > > Patrick Wetterwald > > Jean Raymond > > Jouni Korhonen > > Yu Kaneko > > Subir Das > > Yiyong Zha > > Bal=E1zs Varga > > J=E1nos Farkas > > Franz-Josef Goetz > > Juergen Schmitt > > Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-05.txt > > Pages : 76 > > Date : 2016-02-23 > > Abstract: > > This draft documents requirements in several diverse industries to > > establish multi-hop paths for characterized flows with=20 > deterministic > > properties. In this context deterministic implies that streams can > > be established which provide guaranteed bandwidth and latency which > > can be established from either a Layer 2 or Layer 3 (IP) interface, > > and which can co-exist on an IP network with best-effort traffic. > > Additional requirements include optional redundant paths, very high > > reliability paths, time synchronization, and clock distribution. > > Industries considered include wireless for industrial applications, > > professional audio, electrical utilities, building automation > > systems, radio/mobile access networks, automotive, and gaming. > > For each case, this document will identify the application,=20 > identify > > representative solutions used today, and what new uses an IETF=20 > DetNet > > solution may enable. > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases/ > > There's also a htmlized version available at: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-05 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-05 > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of=20 > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at=20 > tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Tue Mar 1 07:40:19 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BD731B2DB7 for ; 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Tue, 1 Mar 2016 15:40:11 +0000 From: "Clarke, Kevin J" To: =?utf-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBWYXJnYSBB?= , "Grossman, Ethan A." , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] DetNet Use Case Draft 05 (comments on chapter-8) Thread-Index: AdFz0JXGTSXkRIMGQRaIrnweECcGeg== Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 15:40:10 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [163.33.239.181] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Use Case Draft 05 (comments on chapter-8) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 15:40:18 -0000 SGVsbG8sDQpDaGFwdGVyIDguMyBJbmR1c3RyaWFsIE0yTSBmdXR1cmUuDQoNClRoZSBjaGFwdGVy IHN0YXRlcyAiLi4uLnZhcmlvdXMgcHJvcHJpZXRhcnkgbmV0d29ya3MgcmVwbGFjZWQgd2l0aCBh IGNvbnZlcmdlZCBJUC1zdGFuZGFyZHMtYmFzZWQgbmV0d29yay4gIg0KDQpJIHdvdWxkIHN1Z2dl c3QgdGhhdCBtYW55IG9mIHRob3NlIHByb3ByaWV0YXJ5IG5ldHdvcmtzIHBlcmZvcm0gdmVyeSB3 ZWxsIGN1cnJlbnRseSBhbmQgaW5kZWVkIGhhdmUgZm9yZXNlZW4gbWFueSBvZiB0aGUgZGV0ZXJt aW5pc3RpYyBuZXR3b3JrIGltcHJvdmVtZW50cy4gDQoNCkl0IG1heSBub3QgYmUgbmVjZXNzYXJ5 IHRvIGFkdm9jYXRlIGZvciB0aGVpciByZXBsYWNlbWVudCwgYnV0IGJldHRlciBmb3IgdGhlIHN1 cHBvcnQgdG8gcHJvdmlkZSBnYXRld2F5IGZ1bmN0aW9uYWxpdHkgc28gdGhhdCB0aGUgcHJvcHJp ZXRhcnkgbmV0d29ya3MgY2FuIGFjY2VzcyB0aGUgSVAtc3RhbmRhcmRzLWJhc2VkLW5ldHdvcmsu ICBJdCBjb3VsZCBiZSBwb3RlbnRpYWxseSBhbiBpbnRlcndvcmsgb2YgZXF1aXZhbGVudCB0cmFu c3BvcnQgY2xhc3NlcyBvciBzdWl0YWJsZSBlbmNhcHN1bGF0aW9uIG9mIHRyYWZmaWMgYWNyb3Nz IHRoZSBzdGFuZGFyZHMgYmFzZWQgbmV0d29yay4gSXRzIG5vdCB1cCB0byB0aGlzIGRyYWZ0IHRv IHNwZWNpZnkgdGhlIGludGVyd29ya2luZyBmdW5jdGlvbnMuDQoNCkluIGJyaWVmIHJlcGxhY2Ug IiByZXBsYWNlZCAiIHdpdGggImludGVyd29yayINCg0KVGhhbmsgWW91DQpLZXZpbiANCi0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t CkludGVsIFJlc2VhcmNoIGFuZCBEZXZlbG9wbWVudCBJcmVsYW5kIExpbWl0ZWQKUmVnaXN0ZXJl ZCBpbiBJcmVsYW5kClJlZ2lzdGVyZWQgT2ZmaWNlOiBDb2xsaW5zdG93biBJbmR1c3RyaWFsIFBh cmssIExlaXhsaXAsIENvdW50eSBLaWxkYXJlClJlZ2lzdGVyZWQgTnVtYmVyOiAzMDgyNjMKCgpU aGlzIGUtbWFpbCBhbmQgYW55IGF0dGFjaG1lbnRzIG1heSBjb250YWluIGNvbmZpZGVudGlhbCBt YXRlcmlhbCBmb3IgdGhlIHNvbGUKdXNlIG9mIHRoZSBpbnRlbmRlZCByZWNpcGllbnQocykuIEFu eSByZXZpZXcgb3IgZGlzdHJpYnV0aW9uIGJ5IG90aGVycyBpcwpzdHJpY3RseSBwcm9oaWJpdGVk LiBJZiB5b3UgYXJlIG5vdCB0aGUgaW50ZW5kZWQgcmVjaXBpZW50LCBwbGVhc2UgY29udGFjdCB0 aGUKc2VuZGVyIGFuZCBkZWxldGUgYWxsIGNvcGllcy4K From nobody Tue Mar 1 23:08:05 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A89AB1A1F16 for ; 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Wed, 2 Mar 2016 08:08:00 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Varga_A?= To: "Clarke, Kevin J" , "Grossman, Ethan A." , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] DetNet Use Case Draft 05 (comments on chapter-8) Thread-Index: AdFz0JXGTSXkRIMGQRaIrnweECcGegAf/GRA Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 07:07:59 +0000 Message-ID: <3002A87EA61E0A4DB56546AC16A0D5171EF2208A@ESESSMB103.ericsson.se> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.17] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpmkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGbE9UDdg4rUwg28b5C1+f5rNYtH3eDu7 xf1355gdmD32TTzC4rFkyU8mj8V7XjIFMEdx2aSk5mSWpRbp2yVwZezYOp2t4JJgxdKzt9gb GK/wdTFycEgImEjc3lLSxcgJZIpJXLi3ng3EFhI4zChx8KVDFyMXkL2IUWLSvuesIAk2AVeJ zx0PwYpEBBoYJdZvDgGxhQXcJC7tusUCMlNEwF3i8HUdiBIjiV9fbzKB2CwCKhJPPvwGa+UV 8JVov9HICLErWGLWrjlgcU6BEImmPzvAbEage76fWgPWyywgLnHryXwmiDsFJJbsOc8MYYtK vHz8jxXiFUWJ5f1yEOV6EjemTmGDsLUlli18zQyxVlDi5MwnLBMYRWchmToLScssJC2zkLQs YGRZxShanFpcnJtuZKyXWpSZXFycn6eXl1qyiREYNQe3/Nbdwbj6teMhRgEORiUe3g9y18KE WBPLiitzDzFKcDArifAa9wKFeFMSK6tSi/Lji0pzUosPMUpzsCiJ87J9uhwmJJCeWJKanZpa kFoEk2Xi4JRqYIyKyXuvxWcx/zhPZcOD0nr5Z6tPFDNNfzFtApeq9DQrKyGuC59+nH6seo9z nQgvc6xK+s14LavYad8ilfhEQ1Qv/nxR5K1YfV37xIdV+57zP33oFqSdcsZ07X+xgs+tfJK3 n3fFdrMfOXP+1lQxwe9LJhqFiR04eN4gLKRym+Csp7Mm7u764qDEUpyRaKjFXFScCABbuMxW lgIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Use Case Draft 05 (comments on chapter-8) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 07:08:04 -0000 Hi Kevin, Good catch. I see both scenarios for industrial use-cases: replacement and = interwork.=20 Industrial scenarios are sometimes "ultra-conservative" and do not want to = hear about any changes.=20 In those cases "interwork" is the target as you described. Replacement is m= ore a target for new=20 installations and future gain from IP based networking technologies.=20 So, I think we should have both option in the text and you have pointed to = a missing aspect. Thanks & Cheers Bala'zs -----Original Message----- From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Clarke, Kevin J Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 4:40 PM To: Bal=E1zs Varga A; Grossman, Ethan A.; detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Use Case Draft 05 (comments on chapter-8) Hello, Chapter 8.3 Industrial M2M future. The chapter states "....various proprietary networks replaced with a conver= ged IP-standards-based network. " I would suggest that many of those proprietary networks perform very well c= urrently and indeed have foreseen many of the deterministic network improve= ments.=20 It may not be necessary to advocate for their replacement, but better for t= he support to provide gateway functionality so that the proprietary network= s can access the IP-standards-based-network. It could be potentially an in= terwork of equivalent transport classes or suitable encapsulation of traffi= c across the standards based network. Its not up to this draft to specify t= he interworking functions. In brief replace " replaced " with "interwork" Thank You Kevin -------------------------------------------------------------- Intel Research and Development Ireland Limited Registered in Ireland Regist= ered Office: Collinstown Industrial Park, Leixlip, County Kildare Registere= d Number: 308263 This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for the s= ole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact = the sender and delete all copies. _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Fri Mar 4 07:45:10 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62B5B1A1F70 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2016 07:45:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3iPYrj_k0ouL for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2016 07:45:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22b.google.com (mail-pa0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66CF11A1B95 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2016 07:45:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id fl4so36799240pad.0 for ; Fri, 04 Mar 2016 07:45:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Jp7G7ZobuT1zxT4DDYbX4bHznBw6BwhyvBGuuW0jAgg=; b=cANuX3fDYaUfP3/8ssnFRyLRRUWrWAvY7d6TLuF8EGq59A/QfvzCDCez0jrmAaSJ5h ue9YYEFdw682qhYqwK95M5bZqg8sqAGGq022TODXlk9xM7ovmKCTJpjOvsV9zpxofl5M jbZqecAecli3i0L+UKkffkrXgIcNl17SSNmrY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Jp7G7ZobuT1zxT4DDYbX4bHznBw6BwhyvBGuuW0jAgg=; b=AyLOePvzwQeN0bKfTx1xMSwOmLGEihHjbrJVhHCRQeH/ARYeuU7NQZbNuRm7YniTgQ hb5AgYmbYjCbPvuDu0FIDj+luvqGbTH3stjnuSnN+ISluGbZqrjy5/B5TF2kclOCvfoE /5yP3ZwDnkPQkCJTjYBD/Cpp8BLuXNBlKeD8M+PRzRsWElZs2molyA10/Adcm4ZIa7Ti /dcNAZM4uAj5Yj8f5Z3QylsjQrDjUP5PK0pXhrHZHhQqf2Ad7x4PGEfvNOwDPs1kwLib +snROMVIYeaahNpUnc/tCikxelkQcJRh+uWVineYEq30afrnIodNbjoTB/pWgQK8uqSl 9dSA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKAL8ypjurOI6wJikIXCr1dmW/V9G5KNV5crZRmTGUrHknjmeAMWVfx0jLeHlIrrvxV X-Received: by 10.66.119.71 with SMTP id ks7mr13120933pab.151.1457106304003; Fri, 04 Mar 2016 07:45:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.16.38.100] (5520-maca-inet1-outside.broadcom.com. [216.31.211.11]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id fl9sm6416325pab.30.2016.03.04.07.45.02 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 04 Mar 2016 07:45:03 -0800 (PST) To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= , "Grossman, Ethan A." , "detnet@ietf.org" References: <3002A87EA61E0A4DB56546AC16A0D5171EF20886@ESESSMB103.ericsson.se> <56D4AE0B.7030709@broadcom.com> <3002A87EA61E0A4DB56546AC16A0D5171EF20D37@ESESSMB103.ericsson.se> From: Jouni Korhonen Message-ID: <56D9AD7E.60000@broadcom.com> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 07:45:02 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3002A87EA61E0A4DB56546AC16A0D5171EF20D37@ESESSMB103.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Use Case Draft 05 (comments on chapter-6 and chapter-7) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2016 15:45:08 -0000 Hi Balazs, 3/1/2016, 4:58 AM, Balázs Varga A kirjoitti: > Hi Jouni, > > Many thanks for the feedback. Just for clarification copied here the problematic points for easier follow: > > - 6.1.1. Network Architecture: CPRI reference > I agree with You that "The text does not have to be in line with CPRI cooperation requirements.". > However I think referring to CPRI cooperation numbers would add value as it is representing > a widely accepted fronthaul design parameter. We could also refer to it: > http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2015/cm-CPRI-requirements-1115-v01.pdf > > I like your example numbers also as it shows that there are many possible allocation options of the available > time budget (e.g. 3ms in LTE) between processing and transport. There are many recent discussions > around this in the industry, so other numbers are also floating around. We have an explicit reference to CPRI specification and more "discussion" on CPRI in general later in the text in Section 6.2. That should be enough. Maybe rearranging the text order in places would be needed. > > - 6.1.2. Time Synchronization Requirements: Removal of PDV > I agree that text here is not only about CPRI ("Since the text is not only about CPRI I don't think removing this is OK. ") > But all the bullet points with reference to numerical values from 3GPP specification are naming explicitly TAE. > If the fronthaul network is packet based, then PDV can be derived from those TAE values. Therefore I think > reference to TAE is more appropriate. Section 6.1.2. already talks and point out TAE. The text is still about general describtion so I am not entirely sure what you want to change here and why. > > - 6.1.3. Time-Sensitive Stream Requirements: congestion > I agree that fronthaul streams have to have zero packet loss due to congestion. However network failures may cause > congestion situation even in a well-designed network. So I would list congestion as a possible cause of packet loss, > but fully agree that under normal circumstances congestion should not hit fronthaul streams. This is OK. We can state there are other causes for packet loss than bit errors. - Jouni > > Cheers > Bala'zs > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com] > Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 9:46 PM > To: Balázs Varga A; Grossman, Ethan A.; detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Use Case Draft 05 (comments on chapter-6 and chapter-7) > > Hi, > > > I'll respond to some points here since I think large junks of text in some form under Section 6. originally came from me. > > 2/29/2016, 9:17 AM, Balázs Varga A kirjoitti: >> Hi, >> >> great work on the use-case document to make it converged. >> >> I have several comments on chapter 6 (Cellular Radio Use Cases) and >> >> chapter 7 (Cellular Coordinated Multipoint Processing (CoMP)). >> >> My major comment would be that the group should consider to merge >> these chapters: >> >> (i) both of them are dealing with cellular networks and (ii) COMP is a >> particular scenario for >> >> Midhaul. So from use-case perspective they are highly related and the >> motivation >> >> for DetNet is the same. >> >> *@Ethan: I would be happy to provide an initial merged text if that is >> the* >> >> *direction and You would find it helpful. * >> >> Further comments/clarifications/proposals are below. >> >> Cheers Bala'zs >> >> Ps: detailed comments are: >> >> *Comment1, 6.1.1. Network Architecture* >> >> Text below Figure 7. deals with transport delay requirements and >> should have a new sub-chapter. >> >> // >> >> /Proposed change in the text would result as: / >> >> /"6.1.2. Delay Requirements"/ >> > This is OK. > >> // >> >> *Comment2, 6.1.1. Network Architecture* >> >> Text below Figure 7. contains example numbers that are not inline >> >> with CPRI Cooperation recommendations. The widely used requirement >> >> for transport of CPRI signal is 100 usec one-way-delay. >> >> Therefore text should reflect a more realistic networking scenario. >> > The text does not have to be in line with CPRI cooperation requirements. > And intentionally does not state that here. >> /Proposed change in the text would result as: / >> >> /"The available processing time for Fronthaul networking overhead is/ >> >> /limited to the available time after the baseband processing of the/ >> >> /radio frame has completed. For example in Long Term Evolution (LTE)/ >> >> /radio, processing of a radio frame is allocated 3ms, but typically/ >> >> /the processing use most of it and allows only a small fraction / >> >> /to be used by the Fronthaul network (100usec one way delay for CPRI). >> This / >> >> /ultimately determines the distance the remote radio heads can be / >> >> /located from the base stations (100us equals roughly 20 km of optical >> / >> >> /fiber-based transport). / >> >> // >> >> /Considering packet based transport this transport allocated time / >> >> /(i.e. 100 usec) is consumed by all nodes and buffering between the / >> >> /remote radio head and the baseband processing unit, plus the / >> >> /distance-incurred delay."/ >> > I don't think this change is appropriate here. It can be, though, in the part of text that actually refers to CPRI. > >> // >> >> *Comment3, 6.1.2. Time Synchronization Requirements * >> >> As today's Fronthaul networks are not packet based it is misleading >> > Well.. OBSAI is packet based and deployed. >> to write here about Packet Delay Variation. Packetization is for >> >> future transport solution of Fronthaul. Therefore PDV reference is >> >> proposed to be eliminated in this chapter. >> > Since the text is not only about CPRI I don't think removing this is OK. > Clarifying that there are fronthauls where the text does not apply is fine. >> /Proposed change in the text would result as: / >> >> /"Timing Alignment Error:/ >> >> /Timing Alignment Error (TEA) is problematic to Fronthaul / >> >> /networks and must be minimized. If the transport network cannot / >> >> /guarantee low enough TEA then additional buffering has to be / >> >> /introduced at the edges of the network to buffer out the jitter. / >> >> /Buffering is not desirable as it reduces the total available delay / >> >> /budget."/ >> >> *Comment4, 6.1.3. Time-Sensitive Stream Requirements* >> >> Text deals with loss requirements, so rename chapter: >> >> /"6.1.3. Loss Requirements"/ >> >> *Comment5, 6.1.3. Time-Sensitive Stream Requirements* >> >> There are multiple reasons why a packet gets lost during transport. >> >> BER is just one of the reasons. Others are e.g. buffer overflow, >> >> network failure, rerouting. Text also mixes requirements and possible >> >> solutions, therefore some cleaning would be proposed. >> > Cleaning the text here is good. However, I think buffer overflow as a reason for packet loss in fronthaul is non-starter. That means there is something really wrong in the deployment. >> /Proposed change in the text would result as: / >> >> /"Fronthaul (and Midhaul) networks assume almost error-free / >> >> /transport. Errors may result in reset of radio interfaces, what may / >> >> /cause broken radio connectivity for mobile customers or decremented / >> >> /throughput. / >> >> // >> >> /For packetized Fronthaul and Midhaul connections packet loss may be / >> >> /caused by BER, congestion and network failure scenarios./ >> > Congestion in a case of midhaul yes but not really in fronthaul. If your fronthaul network is dimentsioned to face congestion with fronthaul connections you are in a trouble. >> // >> >> /Current tool-kits to elminate packet losses have serious challenges / >> >> /in case of Fronthaul and Midhaul networks. Retransmitting lost / >> >> /packets and/or using forward error correction (FEC) to circumvent bit >> / >> >> /errors is practically impossible due to the additional delay / >> >> /incurred. Using redundant streams for better guarantees for delivery >> / >> >> /is also practically impossible in many cases due to high bandwidth / >> >> /requirements of Fronthaul and Midhaul networks. Protection switching >> / >> >> /is also a candidate but current technologies for the path switch are >> / >> >> /too slow to avoid reset of mobile interfaces."/ >> > This cleanup except for the congestion is fine. >> // >> >> *Comment6, 6.2. Cellular Radio Networks Today* >> >> So far text deals only with Fronthaul and Midhaul networks. Backhaul >> >> was not considered to require DetNet functionalities. >> >> Statement in this chapter should refer for which type of the Haul >> >> networks they are valid. Creating sub-chapters could make it more >> >> clear (i.e. Fronthaul needs optical transport, Mid/Backhaul can be >> done >> >> over packet networks). >> > Good point. Should be corrected. >> /Proposed change in the text would result as:/ >> >> /"6.2.1 Fronthauls/ >> >> /Today's Fronthaul networks typically consist of:/ >> >> /o Dedicated point-to-point fiber connection is common/ >> >> /o Proprietary protocols and framings/ >> >> /o Custom equipment and no real networking/ >> >> /Current solutions for Fronthaul are direct optical cables or WDM / >> >> /connections./ >> > Ok. >> // >> >> // >> >> /6.2.2 Midhauls and Backhauls/ >> >> /!!! All further statements are valid for Mid- and Backhaul networks / >> >> /used todays. That should be made clear by changing "cellular domain" >> / >> >> /to Mid- and Backhaul" in the remaining text of this chapter. !!!/ >> >> /"/ >> > Ok. >> // >> >> *Comment7, 6.3. Cellular Radio Networks Future* >> >> This sub-chapter is somewhat unstructured. Two key messages should be >> >> named more explicitly as it is done in current text: >> >> - Not all "cellular radio network" traffic will be IP, some of them >> >> will remain at lower layer (e.g. Ethernet based). DetNet solutions >> >> must address all of them with the same tool-kit and allow of their >> >> transport simultaneously. >> >> - All form of xHaul networks will need some form of DetNet solutions. >> >> In addition to Fronthaul and Midhaul connections with the advent of >> >> 5G some traffic of the Backhaul will also have DetNet requirements >> >> (e.g. traffic belonging to time critical 5G applications). >> >> /Proposed additional text at the beginning of the sub-chapter: / >> >> /" Future Cellular Radio Networks will be based on a mix of different >> xHaul networks* *(xHaul = front-, mid- and backhaul). Therefore >> transport networks should be able to / >> >> /support all of them simultaneously. It is already envisioned today, >> that:/ >> >> /o Not all "cellular radio network" traffic will be IP, some of them / >> >> /will remain at lower layer (e.g. Ethernet based). DetNet solutions / >> >> /must address all **traffic types (L2, L3) with the same tool-kit and >> / >> >> /allow of their transport simultaneously./ >> >> /o All form of **xHaul networks will need some form of DetNet >> solutions. / >> >> /In addition to Fronthaul and Midhaul connections with the advent of / >> >> /5G some traffic of the Backhaul will as well have DetNet requirements >> / >> >> /(e.g. traffic belonging to time critical 5G applications). / >> >> /"/ >> > This is a good piece of text to add. >> // >> >> *Comment8, 6.4. Cellular Radio Networks Ask* >> >> General statements are fine, but Fronthaul related bullet points are >> for further discussion. >> >> Therefore proposed to be deleted. >> >> /Proposal: delete text starting with "Mapping the Fronthaul >> requirements to IETF DetNet ..."/ >> > Ok. > > Thanks for a very good review, > Jouni >> // >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Grossman, >> Ethan A. >> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 11:02 PM >> To: detnet@ietf.org >> Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Use Case Draft 05 >> >> Hi Folks, >> >> This version updates the Wireless for Industrial section to match the >> accepted format. >> >> Note that this use case is different than the others in that its >> intent is not only to present "another application for DetNet" but >> also to point out places where the needs for protocol development for >> DetNet and the 6TiSCH wireless standard overlap. Thus this section >> highlights these potential overlaps such that we can eventually >> determine which are "in scope" for DetNet. >> >> Ethan. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> internet-drafts@ietf.org >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 1:42 PM >> >> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >> >> Cc: detnet@ietf.org >> >> Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-05.txt >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> directories. >> >> This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking of the IETF. >> >> Title : Deterministic Networking Use Cases >> >> Authors : Ethan Grossman >> >> Craig Gunther >> >> Pascal Thubert >> >> Patrick Wetterwald >> >> Jean Raymond >> >> Jouni Korhonen >> >> Yu Kaneko >> >> Subir Das >> >> Yiyong Zha >> >> Balázs Varga >> >> János Farkas >> >> Franz-Josef Goetz >> >> Juergen Schmitt >> >> Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-05.txt >> >> Pages : 76 >> >> Date : 2016-02-23 >> >> Abstract: >> >> This draft documents requirements in several diverse industries to >> >> establish multi-hop paths for characterized flows with >> deterministic >> >> properties. In this context deterministic implies that streams can >> >> be established which provide guaranteed bandwidth and latency which >> >> can be established from either a Layer 2 or Layer 3 (IP) interface, >> >> and which can co-exist on an IP network with best-effort traffic. >> >> Additional requirements include optional redundant paths, very high >> >> reliability paths, time synchronization, and clock distribution. >> >> Industries considered include wireless for industrial applications, >> >> professional audio, electrical utilities, building automation >> >> systems, radio/mobile access networks, automotive, and gaming. >> >> For each case, this document will identify the application, >> identify >> >> representative solutions used today, and what new uses an IETF >> DetNet >> >> solution may enable. >> >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases/ >> >> There's also a htmlized version available at: >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-05 >> >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-05 >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at >> tools.ietf.org. >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> detnet mailing list >> >> detnet@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> detnet mailing list >> >> detnet@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Fri Mar 4 17:13:40 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E3A21AD06A; Fri, 4 Mar 2016 17:13:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.15.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160305011339.1911.68651.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2016 17:13:39 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: detnet@ietf.org Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-06.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2016 01:13:39 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking of the IETF. Title : Deterministic Networking Use Cases Authors : Ethan Grossman Craig Gunther Pascal Thubert Patrick Wetterwald Jean Raymond Jouni Korhonen Yu Kaneko Subir Das Yiyong Zha Balázs Varga János Farkas Franz-Josef Goetz Juergen Schmitt Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-06.txt Pages : 73 Date : 2016-03-04 Abstract: This draft documents requirements in several diverse industries to establish multi-hop paths for characterized flows with deterministic properties. In this context deterministic implies that streams can be established which provide guaranteed bandwidth and latency which can be established from either a Layer 2 or Layer 3 (IP) interface, and which can co-exist on an IP network with best-effort traffic. Additional requirements include optional redundant paths, very high reliability paths, time synchronization, and clock distribution. Industries considered include wireless for industrial applications, professional audio, electrical utilities, building automation systems, radio/mobile access networks, automotive, and gaming. For each case, this document will identify the application, identify representative solutions used today, and what new uses an IETF DetNet solution may enable. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Mar 4 17:20:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6AC11AD0A9 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2016 17:20:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.267 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.267 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RIKXnuyj-4gM for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2016 17:20:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com [67.231.144.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 637221AD0A8 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2016 17:20:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0045961.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.15.0.59/8.15.0.59) with SMTP id u251KBRc011306 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2016 17:20:11 -0800 Received: from dlb-xmrpw01.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.182.43]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 21fhwbg7k1-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 04 Mar 2016 17:20:11 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XMRPW01.dolby.net (10.213.22.204) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.266.1; Fri, 4 Mar 2016 17:20:09 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1076.9; Fri, 4 Mar 2016 17:20:08 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1076.000; Fri, 4 Mar 2016 17:20:08 -0800 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: DetNet Use Cases Draft 06 Thread-Index: AdF2fGjNGY/QR7w4TOeb6e18EuBI5g== Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 01:20:07 +0000 Message-ID: <190d0311d3c44861907396249e01c3e7@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.233.7.60] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.15.96, 1.0.38, 0.0.0000 definitions=2016-03-05_01:2016-03-04,2016-03-04,1970-01-01 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases Draft 06 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2016 01:20:13 -0000 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bmV0IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KZGV0bmV0QGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9t YWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2RldG5ldA0K From nobody Sat Mar 5 00:33:25 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C14C11A8791; Sat, 5 Mar 2016 00:33:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.15.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160305083322.23212.59970.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2016 00:33:22 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: detnet@ietf.org Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-07.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2016 08:33:22 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking of the IETF. Title : Deterministic Networking Use Cases Authors : Ethan Grossman Craig Gunther Pascal Thubert Patrick Wetterwald Jean Raymond Jouni Korhonen Yu Kaneko Subir Das Yiyong Zha Balázs Varga János Farkas Franz-Josef Goetz Juergen Schmitt Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-07.txt Pages : 72 Date : 2016-03-05 Abstract: This draft documents requirements in several diverse industries to establish multi-hop paths for characterized flows with deterministic properties. In this context deterministic implies that streams can be established which provide guaranteed bandwidth and latency which can be established from either a Layer 2 or Layer 3 (IP) interface, and which can co-exist on an IP network with best-effort traffic. Additional requirements include optional redundant paths, very high reliability paths, time synchronization, and clock distribution. Industries considered include wireless for industrial applications, professional audio, electrical utilities, building automation systems, radio/mobile access networks, automotive, and gaming. For each case, this document will identify the application, identify representative solutions used today, and what new uses an IETF DetNet solution may enable. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-07 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-07 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sat Mar 5 00:37:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 026441A87F2 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2016 00:37:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.267 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.267 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8_E4arGeAyvt for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2016 00:37:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com [67.231.144.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6127E1A87D7 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2016 00:37:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0045961.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.15.0.59/8.15.0.59) with SMTP id u258bQHb011116 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2016 00:37:26 -0800 Received: from dlb-xmrpw01.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.182.43]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 21fhwbggx3-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 05 Mar 2016 00:37:26 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XMRPW01.dolby.net (10.213.22.204) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.266.1; Sat, 5 Mar 2016 00:37:24 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1076.9; Sat, 5 Mar 2016 00:37:23 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1076.000; Sat, 5 Mar 2016 00:37:23 -0800 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: DetNet Use Cases Draft 07 Thread-Index: AdF2uenRNxkMv/r2RIaXd8eobwEyvw== Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 08:37:22 +0000 Message-ID: <7492bf6b6c4641d6a740a46b64ebeb59@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.233.7.60] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.15.96, 1.0.38, 0.0.0000 definitions=2016-03-05_06:2016-03-04,2016-03-05,1970-01-01 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases Draft 07 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2016 08:37:28 -0000 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[216.31.211.11]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id yx4sm25668452pac.5.2016.03.07.10.04.50 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 07 Mar 2016 10:04:50 -0800 (PST) To: DetNet WG , jouni.korhonen@broadcom.com, Lou Berger , "Pat (Patricia) Thaler" From: Jouni Korhonen Message-ID: <56DDC2C1.4020305@broadcom.com> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 10:04:49 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Agenda requests for IETF95 in Buenos Aires X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 18:04:55 -0000 Folks, The preliminary agenda was published last Friday, seehttps://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/95/agenda.html. DetNet WG is on air from 10:00 - 12:30 on Tuesday April 5th in Buen Ayre A. If you'd like to have a presentation slot in Buenos Aires, please send a request to the chairs and me by Friday March 18th. Also pay attention to the important dates listed below. Specifically, the document submission deadline is UTC 23:59 on March 21st. When requesting a slot having a draft that has alrady been seen and discussed on the list is highly encouraged. Any WG draft not being discussed/presented needs to a status update sent to the list by Sunday March 27th. Please also provide a summary slide by Saturday, April 2nd. We'll need all slides for presentations by Saturday, April 2nd. The earlier, the better, though. Cheers, Jouni, Lou & Pat 2016-03-21 (Monday): Internet Draft submission cut-off (for all drafts, including -00) by UTC 23:59, upload using IETF ID Submission Tool. 2016-03-21 (Monday): Draft Working Group agendas due by UTC 23:59, upload using IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool. 2016-03-25 (Friday): Early Bird registration and payment cut-off at UTC 23:59. 2016-03-28 (Monday): Revised Working Group agendas due by UTC 23:59, upload using IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool. 2016-03-28 (Monday): Registration cancellation cut-off at UTC 23:59. 2016-04-01 (Friday): Final Pre-Registration and Pre-Payment cut-off at 17:00 local meeting time. 2016-04-03 - 2016-04-08: IETF 95 in Buenos Aires, Argentina From nobody Mon Mar 7 13:16:26 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfc.amsl.com Received: from ietfc.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 819A71CDBBA; Mon, 7 Mar 2016 13:16:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.15.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160307211625.22319.27501.idtracker@ietfc.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 13:16:25 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: detnet@ietf.org Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-08.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 21:16:25 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking of the IETF. Title : Deterministic Networking Use Cases Authors : Ethan Grossman Craig Gunther Pascal Thubert Patrick Wetterwald Jean Raymond Jouni Korhonen Yu Kaneko Subir Das Yiyong Zha Balázs Varga János Farkas Franz-Josef Goetz Juergen Schmitt Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-08.txt Pages : 70 Date : 2016-03-07 Abstract: This draft documents requirements in several diverse industries to establish multi-hop paths for characterized flows with deterministic properties. In this context deterministic implies that streams can be established which provide guaranteed bandwidth and latency which can be established from either a Layer 2 or Layer 3 (IP) interface, and which can co-exist on an IP network with best-effort traffic. Additional requirements include optional redundant paths, very high reliability paths, time synchronization, and clock distribution. Industries considered include wireless for industrial applications, professional audio, electrical utilities, building automation systems, radio/mobile access networks, automotive, and gaming. For each case, this document will identify the application, identify representative solutions used today, and what new uses an IETF DetNet solution may enable. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-08 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-08 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Mar 7 13:36:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfc.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfc.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9632B1CDBF1 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2016 13:36:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.621 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.621 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.41]) by localhost (ietfc.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OVIw1DSDVMcW for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2016 13:36:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com (mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com [67.231.152.235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 81EA11CDBD1 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2016 13:36:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0000695.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.15.0.59/8.15.0.59) with SMTP id u27LYPFn018120 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2016 13:36:17 -0800 Received: from dlb-xmrpw01.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.182.43]) by mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 21hhj3g0r9-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 13:36:17 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW04.dolby.net (10.233.7.4) by DLB-XMRPW01.dolby.net (10.213.22.204) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.266.1; Mon, 7 Mar 2016 13:36:16 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW04.dolby.net (10.233.7.4) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1076.9; Mon, 7 Mar 2016 13:36:15 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1076.000; Mon, 7 Mar 2016 13:36:15 -0800 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: DetNet Use Cases Draft 08 Thread-Index: AdF4tyWvnkBE9C/jSdu3/pErgj16NA== Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 21:36:15 +0000 Message-ID: <37cbacb8e9274e048be19f9aad9a291c@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.207.133.62] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.15.96, 1.0.38, 0.0.0000 definitions=2016-03-07_13:2016-03-07,2016-03-07,1970-01-01 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases Draft 08 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 21:36:23 -0000 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7 Mar 2016 21:39:00 +0000 Message-ID: <73dfac82191f4c1ba457e2755d2bdc00@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <37cbacb8e9274e048be19f9aad9a291c@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> In-Reply-To: <37cbacb8e9274e048be19f9aad9a291c@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.249.111] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases Draft 08 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 21:39:35 -0000 SHVnZSB0aGFua3MsIEV0aGFuLCBmb3IgdGhlIGVub3Jtb3VzIGFtb3VudCBvZiB3b3JrLi4uDQoN ClBhc2NhbA0KDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogZGV0bmV0 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aGUgaHRtbGl6ZWQgdmVyc2lvbiBhbmQgZGlmZiBhcmUgYXZhaWxhYmxlIGF0IHRvb2xzLmlldGYu b3JnLg0KPiANCj4gSW50ZXJuZXQtRHJhZnRzIGFyZSBhbHNvIGF2YWlsYWJsZSBieSBhbm9ueW1v dXMgRlRQIGF0Og0KPiBmdHA6Ly9mdHAuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaW50ZXJuZXQtZHJhZnRzLw0KPiANCj4g X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gZGV0bmV0 IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBkZXRuZXRAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcv bWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9kZXRuZXQNCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gZGV0bmV0IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBkZXRuZXRAaWV0Zi5v cmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9kZXRuZXQNCg== From nobody Wed Mar 9 15:29:17 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18AAD12D6F5 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 15:29:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, 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h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:content-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=46KsAuVKqg7HUcG/YAFucaA8MoiPu0W8tsqmIRILMmE=; b=Mp3lJI/9Gd+cQDK0MgQpyMYxK577kQ62QlRc/W/HRq54v8sJbWtQhuKm cJvsh9cp0sy+ZkGtPJU/44OMS4U8CiIqt92CzZmvnaEfZkm3n1rIcrNt1 JYdrjoNSqJ8FXRylMSsLHoHGVBm/C46LLtpbGOFa1JvoI8VP0wfRnmsWw g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AsAgCLseBW/5tdJa1egztSbQa6WAENg?= =?us-ascii?q?W0jhgqBLDgUAQEBAQEBAWQcC4RIIxFXARoIAiYCBDAVAhAEiDcOoByPXY8mAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQYBAQEBARcEfIUci3yBOgWXNwGNcYFOAY0tjl0BHgEBQoNkagGIVH4BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,313,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="246878631" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 09 Mar 2016 23:29:05 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com (xch-rcd-018.cisco.com [173.37.102.28]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u29NT5eF022016 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 23:29:05 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-018.cisco.com (173.37.102.28) by XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com (173.37.102.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 17:29:04 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-018.cisco.com ([173.37.102.28]) by XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com ([173.37.102.28]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 17:29:04 -0600 From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? Thread-Index: AQHRelt3Kp5oBujhO0u0WMJUTyyHog== Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 23:29:04 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.1.160122 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.128.2.32] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <3C656EF8B435C5469FEAB6F694F60F80@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 23:29:17 -0000 SW4gb3VyIHBsYW4gZnJvbSBOb3ZlbWJlciwgd2UgdGFsa2VkIGFib3V0IGFkb3B0aW5nIGFuIGFy Y2hpdGVjdHVyZSBkcmFmdC4NClRoZXJlIGlzIGEgZHJhZnQgZm9yIG9uZSwgYW5kIHRpbWUgY29t bWVudCBhbmQgcmV2aXNlIGl0IGJlZm9yZSB0aGUNCmRlYWRsaW5lIGZvciBBcHJpbC4gIElzIGl0 IHNvIGdvb2QgdGhlcmUgaXMgbm90aGluZyBtb3JlIHRvIHNheT8gIDopICA6KQ0KDQpodHRwczov L3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9pbnRlcm5ldC1kcmFmdHMvZHJhZnQtZmlubi1kZXRuZXQtYXJjaGl0ZWN0 dXJlLTAzLnR4dA0KDQoNCuKAlCBOb3JtDQoNCg== From nobody Thu Mar 10 07:19:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F07012D95F for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 07:19:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QRSy7su2sIqf for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 07:19:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from thoth.sbs.de (thoth.sbs.de [192.35.17.2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24BFC12D9EC for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 07:14:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.sbs.de (mail2.sbs.de [192.129.41.66]) by thoth.sbs.de (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id u2AFEfDA017581 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:14:42 +0100 Received: from DEFTHW99ERIMSX.ww902.siemens.net (defthw99erimsx.ww902.siemens.net [139.22.70.134]) by mail2.sbs.de (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id u2AFEetJ001617 (version=TLSv1 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:14:41 +0100 Received: from DEFTHW99ERCMSX.ww902.siemens.net (139.22.70.70) by DEFTHW99ERIMSX.ww902.siemens.net (139.22.70.134) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.279.2; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:14:40 +0100 Received: from DEFTHW99EK3MSX.ww902.siemens.net ([169.254.4.161]) by DEFTHW99ERCMSX.ww902.siemens.net ([139.22.70.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0279.002; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:14:40 +0100 From: "Schmitt, Juergen" To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? Thread-Index: AQHRelt3Kp5oBujhO0u0WMJUTyyHop9SrU2w Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 15:14:39 +0000 Message-ID: <4E310F17BD503646BD155B102AF875E8170A4510@DEFTHW99EK3MSX.ww902.siemens.net> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [139.22.70.41] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? 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Thu, 10 Mar 2016 18:37:41 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-018.cisco.com (173.37.102.28) by XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com (173.36.7.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 12:37:40 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-018.cisco.com ([173.37.102.28]) by XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com ([173.37.102.28]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 12:37:40 -0600 From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" To: "Schmitt, Juergen" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? Thread-Index: AQHRevvsDjOGF+42/0ml6rbgHyTzdQ== Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 18:37:40 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.1.160122 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.128.128.218] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? 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LWZpbm4tZGV0bmV0LWFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS0wMyBjb21tZW50cz8/DQo+DQo+SW4gb3VyIHBsYW4g ZnJvbSBOb3ZlbWJlciwgd2UgdGFsa2VkIGFib3V0IGFkb3B0aW5nIGFuIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZSBk cmFmdC4NCj5UaGVyZSBpcyBhIGRyYWZ0IGZvciBvbmUsIGFuZCB0aW1lIGNvbW1lbnQgYW5kIHJl dmlzZSBpdCBiZWZvcmUgdGhlDQo+ZGVhZGxpbmUgZm9yIEFwcmlsLiAgSXMgaXQgc28gZ29vZCB0 aGVyZSBpcyBub3RoaW5nIG1vcmUgdG8gc2F5PyAgOikgIDopDQo+DQo+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0 Zi5vcmcvaW50ZXJuZXQtZHJhZnRzL2RyYWZ0LWZpbm4tZGV0bmV0LWFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS0wMy50 eHQNCj4NCj4NCj7igJQgTm9ybQ0KPg0KPl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+ZGV0bmV0IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPmRldG5ldEBpZXRmLm9yZw0K Pmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZGV0bmV0DQo+X19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj5kZXRuZXQgbWFpbGluZyBs aXN0DQo+ZGV0bmV0QGlldGYub3JnDQo+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0 aW5mby9kZXRuZXQNCg0K From nobody Fri Mar 11 15:13:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5368612DE58; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 15:05:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.16.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160311230540.15028.98996.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 15:05:40 -0800 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 15:13:29 -0800 Cc: detnet@ietf.org, db3546@att.com Subject: [Detnet] detnet - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 95 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 23:05:40 -0000 Dear Lou Berger, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. detnet Session 1 (2:00:00) Tuesday, Morning Session I 1000-1230 Room Name: Buen Ayre A size: 125 --------------------------------------------- Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Deterministic Networking Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Lou Berger Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: mpls netmod ccamp teas pce 6tisch dime dmm Second Priority: bess pals tsvwg nvo3 Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon Mar 14 01:26:40 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C4D612DA47 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2016 01:26:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nE6Q0tmPBpkZ for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2016 01:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gecko.sbs.de (gecko.sbs.de [194.138.37.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96F7712D55C for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2016 01:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.sbs.de (mail2.sbs.de [192.129.41.66]) by gecko.sbs.de (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id u2E8QXCs019453 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2016 09:26:33 +0100 Received: from DEFTHW99ERLMSX.ww902.siemens.net (defthw99erlmsx.ww902.siemens.net [139.22.70.136]) by mail2.sbs.de (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id u2E8QXcT010951 (version=TLSv1 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2016 09:26:33 +0100 Received: from DEFTHW99ERSMSX.ww902.siemens.net (139.22.70.207) by DEFTHW99ERLMSX.ww902.siemens.net (139.22.70.136) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.279.2; Mon, 14 Mar 2016 09:26:32 +0100 Received: from DEFTHW99EK3MSX.ww902.siemens.net ([169.254.4.161]) by DEFTHW99ERSMSX.ww902.siemens.net ([139.22.70.207]) with mapi id 14.03.0279.002; Mon, 14 Mar 2016 09:26:32 +0100 From: "Schmitt, Juergen" To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? Thread-Index: AQHRevvsDjOGF+42/0ml6rbgHyTzdZ9T4UFg Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 08:26:31 +0000 Message-ID: <4E310F17BD503646BD155B102AF875E8170A593C@DEFTHW99EK3MSX.ww902.siemens.net> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [139.22.70.41] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? 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from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]:43298 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1afwx6-000459-1O; Tue, 15 Mar 2016 15:56:32 -0600 To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" , "detnet@ietf.org" References: From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <56E88507.80508@labn.net> Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 17:56:23 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 21:56:38 -0000 Hi Norm/Authors, I reviewed your document and have some comments. These comments can be addressed now or once the document becomes a WG document (your choice): - First let me say this is a great start and very much appreciated! Section 2: - general point: I think it would be good to separate into their own subsection, e.g., 2.1, terms that are listed for the sole purpose of translating between IEEE 802 and DetNet terminology, e.g., listener and relay, and keeping terms used throughout the document in the main section. OLD end system Commonly called a "host" in IETF documents, and an "end station" is IEEE 802 documents. End systems of interest to this document are either sources or destinations. NEW end system Commonly called a "host" or "node" in IETF documents, and an "end station" is IEEE 802 documents. End systems of interest to this document are either sources or destinations. Note that a system that takes non-DetNet aware traffic and transmits it via a DetNet flow is also an end system. (For comparison, a Label Edge Router (LER) would be an MPLS "end system".) Question: Do we need a term of the DetNet equivalent of an LER To relay system, add "transit node" to the list. Add: DetNet node A DetNet aware end system or relay system. "DetNet" may be omitted in some text. DetNet domain The portion of a network that is DetNet aware. It includes end systems, and other DetNet nodes. link A connection between two DetNet nodes. It may be composed of a physical link or a sub-network technology that can provide appropriate traffic delivery for DetNet flows. Section 3. add to (c). "This function is also know as 1+1 protection, e.g., see [RFC6372]." Section 3.1 this section should mention allocation and scheduling or resources that might otherwise be over subscribed and trigger congestion loss. Section 3.2 Might be worth mentioning that pinned paths are commonly used in MPLS TE LSPs. Section 3.3 - This section should reference that "Seamless Redundancy as defined in this section is also known as 1+1 hitless protection." - Adding sequence number isn't and architectural requirement, but rather one *example* way to implement Seemless redundancy. - section 4.1 s/provisioning by relay systems and end systems sharing peer-to-peer protocols/via control plane protocols (running on relay systems and end systems) - Section 4.2.3 s/The Network Plane/The Network Plane, which is also commonly referred to as the data plane, - Section 4.2.3, second paragraph to me UNIs and NNIs are as much about the control plane as the data plane (see RFC5921 for examples and figures). I'm not sure if this is what you intended or not, but scope should be clarified. Either way 5921 is probably a better reference than 3209. Section 4.5 s/not interfere excessively/coexist with s/QoS/Class of Service (e.g., DiffServ) Section 4.7 - Add after the 1st sentence. "It may serve as the foundation for the DetNet model which will be defined by the working group." Section 4.8 s/a central controller/a central controller or decentralized control plane Section 4.9.2 s/[RFC5127]/[RFC3209] or [RFC3473] also at end of section add: "The integration/interaction of the DetNet control layer an underlying IEEE 802.1 sub-network control layer will need to be defined." Section 4.11 s/Layer-2 tunnels/Layer-2 connections or s/Layer-2 tunnels/Layer-2 VPNs Section 5. I think there's an additional point to be made, here's some suggested text: All DetNet enabled systems and nodes will be interconnected by sub-networks, i.e., Layer 2 technologies. These sub-networks will provide DetNet compatible service for support of DetNet traffic. Examples of sub-networks include 802.1TSN and a point-to-point OTN link. Of course, multi-layer DetNet systems may be possible too, where one DetNet appears as a sub-network, and provides service to, a higher layer DetNet system. That's it for now. So do you want to do an update before a WG adoption call or would you prefer to address my comments in a -01 rev of the WG document? Thanks, Lou On 3/9/2016 6:29 PM, Norman Finn (nfinn) wrote: > In our plan from November, we talked about adopting an architecture draft. > There is a draft for one, and time comment and revise it before the > deadline for April. Is it so good there is nothing more to say? :) :) > > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03.txt > > > — Norm > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Tue Mar 15 15:27:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CE5E12DE0E for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2016 15:27:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=meraki.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id smew0lxKY-H0 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2016 15:27:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x235.google.com (mail-io0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B466012D7A6 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2016 15:27:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x235.google.com with SMTP id n190so42311948iof.0 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2016 15:27:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=meraki.net; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4Gh3tUqm8RQW+5wQLoe607QI2O5FcJDXbAp2L6u4y4M=; b=HhS+rOtmwoDg5P/q3T2Zqw9/xF0lZO6xS4JSSLoId+t3rU1Vlv5SpMk83chapMomtq 42gmOxnvUjym0e83ezXkVfkxEqlnvNN7hQ4gZoQ/xc7eCy/RgtnSkinzUn4zN/J9dTtZ 0adcgtD+y5BMaLycv2nUnrZkE79+S166oL03w= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4Gh3tUqm8RQW+5wQLoe607QI2O5FcJDXbAp2L6u4y4M=; b=msEAGXqCZ6NW+EizyB3kh1JspGF6gcKmVT5Ca//2985QqetozjK36zSkjmbRUSVldU rHTWFh5wDbuFDQXffsBqde6sMyZVoFy2GFW7K8XBG5E8QibYVWjggVQ3XOzGBQj3mRqT FXPEs5B972PpZhDOXoBmlzJAZ5PTwFkZUEG/5PuRC2ebekmI7iqfZq0XtFVcH7Xdxl+L mFwBEcuG7t4/Vj5+UpOTUDVP3I0JE7LjQlFUVPE9WespbVnmFiNGSqiz7pXaO62quGRd 5eL33rhDgcmZBk32aocl/fYU0y6i3HxvhK4g6d4dJWUPbl4ulPtL1i76CLD7J1ica6kV L9Ug== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLECkqwKOfbkrcYJa0o6RixXZrOteCkSOT/FyncWkijm7okc6GMBD/6a/I8Tlly2dGDR94jn4jaf56e+bL/ X-Received: by 10.107.25.68 with SMTP id 65mr1247603ioz.98.1458080820099; Tue, 15 Mar 2016 15:27:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.145.198 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Mar 2016 15:26:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Simon Barber Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 15:26:40 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fe54856074e052e1de5a7 Archived-At: Cc: "detnet@ietf.org" , "Schmitt, Juergen" Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 22:27:03 -0000 --001a113fe54856074e052e1de5a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In 802.11 networks it is not possible to guarantee delay (fundamentally due to use of unlicensed part 15 spectrum), yet it is possible to control it to acceptable limits in most practical situations. Does the terminology in use here allow for use cases where an 802.11 link is involved? On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Norman Finn (nfinn) wrote: > See in-line > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet on behalf of "Schmitt, Juergen" > > Date: Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 07:14 AM > To: "detnet@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? > > >Hi Norm, > > > >First of all thank you for the great work in this document. > >I have just collected some notes which may be interesting to talk about. > > > >In the following I copied parts of the clause in question with may > >proposal for change: > > > > > >Snippet: > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >2. Terminology > >... > > > > reservation > > A trail of configuration from source to destination(s) > > through relay systems associated with a DetNet flow, required > > to deliver the benefits of DetNet. > > > >END-Snippet: > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > >I don=E2=80=99t see that the flow of configuration is just from source t= o > >destination. I would argue in some of today=E2=80=99s RSVP-Models the o= pposite > >is true. > >Many models are imaginable. So I wouldn=E2=80=99t mention any direction= here. > > Maybe, =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 Configuration between source and destination(s)= =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D > > >Snippet: > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >3. Providing the DetNet Quality of Service > > > >DetNet Quality of Service is expressed in terms of: > > > >o Minimum and maximum end-to-end latency from source to destination; > > > >o Probability of loss of a packet, assuming the normal operation of > >the relay systems and links; > > > >o Probability of loss of a packet in the event of the failure of a > >relay system or link. > > > >o Delay variation <-- NEW > > > >END-Snippet: > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > >Delay variation is in my opinion also a very important criteria for > >Quality of Service. > >There are use-cases where it is more important, that the Packet arrives > >Just-In-Time, than the raw > >End-to-end latency. > > Delay variation is critical, of course. But isn=E2=80=99t that covered b= y minimum > and maximum latency? =E2=80=9CDelay variation=E2=80=9D is often used in = a probabilistic > sense around a mean, and probability has no place in DetNet. In IEEE 802= , > we have been speaking in terms of an absolute must-deliver-before (max > latency) and an absolute must-deliver-after (min latency). It=E2=80=99s = just a > matter of how you juggle the numbers; you could talk about worst-case max > latency and delay variation, instead of max latency and min latency, but > you don=E2=80=99t want all three terms, and IMO, =E2=80=9Cdelay variation= =E2=80=9D carries > unwanted plus-or-minus baggage that confuses the issue. > > >Just a comment to clause 6.4. Peer-to-peer reservation protocol: > > > >I think this is a interesting model. It is surely debatable within the > >network. But as an Interface for endstations (Talkers and Listeners) thi= s > >can be very useful. > >Not to forget about small customer networks which need also a simple to > >administer network with end-to-end QoS and Ad-Hoc reservation. > > Thank you for the helpful comments. > > =E2=80=94 Norm > > >Best regards, > >J=C3=BCrgen > > > > > >-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- > >Von: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von Norman Finn > >(nfinn) > >Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. M=C3=A4rz 2016 00:29 > >An: detnet@ietf.org > >Betreff: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? > > > >In our plan from November, we talked about adopting an architecture draf= t. > >There is a draft for one, and time comment and revise it before the > >deadline for April. Is it so good there is nothing more to say? :) :) > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03.tx= t > > > > > >=E2=80=94 Norm > > > >_______________________________________________ > >detnet mailing list > >detnet@ietf.org > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > >_______________________________________________ > >detnet mailing list > >detnet@ietf.org > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --001a113fe54856074e052e1de5a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In 802.11 networks it is not possible to guarantee delay (= fundamentally due to use of unlicensed part 15 spectrum), yet it is possibl= e to control it to acceptable limits in most practical situations. Does the= terminology in use here allow for use cases where an 802.11 link is involv= ed?

On Thu, = Mar 10, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Norman Finn (nfinn) <nfinn@cisco.com> wrote:
See in-line

-----Original Message-----
From: detnet <detnet-bounces@= ietf.org> on behalf of "Schmitt, Juergen"
<juergen.jues.schmit= t@siemens.com>
Date: Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 07:14 AM
To: "detnet@ietf.org" <= detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments??

>Hi Norm,
>
>First of all thank you for the great work in this document.
>I have just collected some notes which may be interesting to talk about= .
>
>In the following I copied parts of the clause in question with may
>proposal for change:
>
>
>Snippet:
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>2.=C2=A0 Terminology
>...
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0reservation
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A trail of configuration from = source to destination(s)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0through relay systems associat= ed with a DetNet flow, required
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to deliver the benefits of Det= Net.
>
>END-Snippet:
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>I don=E2=80=99t see that the flow of configuration is just from source = to
>destination. I would argue in some of=C2=A0 today=E2=80=99s RSVP-Models= the opposite
>is true.
>Many models are imaginable.=C2=A0 So I wouldn=E2=80=99t mention any dir= ection here.

Maybe, =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 Configuration between source and dest= ination(s) =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D

>Snippet:
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>3. Providing the DetNet Quality of Service
>
>DetNet Quality of Service is expressed in terms of:
>
>o Minimum and maximum end-to-end latency from source to destination; >
>o Probability of loss of a packet, assuming the normal operation of
>the relay systems and links;
>
>o Probability of loss of a packet in the event of the failure of a
>relay system or link.
>
>o Delay variation <-- NEW
>
>END-Snippet:
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>Delay variation is in my opinion also a very important criteria for
>Quality of Service.
>There are use-cases where it is more important, that the Packet arrives=
>Just-In-Time, than the raw
>End-to-end latency.

Delay variation is critical, of course.=C2=A0 But isn=E2=80=99t that= covered by minimum
and maximum latency?=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CDelay variation=E2=80=9D is often used = in a probabilistic
sense around a mean, and probability has no place in DetNet.=C2=A0 In IEEE = 802,
we have been speaking in terms of an absolute must-deliver-before (max
latency) and an absolute must-deliver-after (min latency).=C2=A0 It=E2=80= =99s just a
matter of how you juggle the numbers; you could talk about worst-case max latency and delay variation, instead of max latency and min latency, but you don=E2=80=99t want all three terms, and IMO, =E2=80=9Cdelay variation= =E2=80=9D carries
unwanted plus-or-minus baggage that confuses the issue.

>Just a comment to clause 6.4. Peer-to-peer reservation protocol:
>
>I think this is a interesting model. It is surely debatable within the<= br> >network. But as an Interface for endstations (Talkers and Listeners) th= is
>can be very useful.
>Not to forget about small customer networks which need also a simple to=
>administer network with end-to-end QoS and Ad-Hoc reservation.

Thank you for the helpful comments.

=E2=80=94 Norm

>Best regards,
>J=C3=BCrgen
>
>
>-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht-----
>Von: detnet [mailto:detnet-b= ounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von Norman Finn
>(nfinn)
>Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. M=C3=A4rz 2016 00:29
>An: detnet@ietf.org
>Betreff: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments??
>
>In our plan from November, we talked about adopting an architecture dra= ft.
>There is a draft for one, and time comment and revise it before the
>deadline for April.=C2=A0 Is it so good there is nothing more to say?= =C2=A0 :)=C2=A0 :)
>
>https://www.ietf.org/i= nternet-drafts/draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03.txt
>
>
>=E2=80=94 Norm
>
>_______________________________________________
>detnet mailing list
>detnet@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
>_______________________________________________
>detnet mailing list
>detnet@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

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[216.31.211.11]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i9sm567197pfi.95.2016.03.15.17.57.46 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 15 Mar 2016 17:57:47 -0700 (PDT) To: Lou Berger , "Norman Finn (nfinn)" , "detnet@ietf.org" References: <56E88507.80508@labn.net> From: Jouni Korhonen Message-ID: <56E8AF88.9040406@broadcom.com> Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 17:57:44 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <56E88507.80508@labn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 00:57:51 -0000 Thanks Lou. If I hear no complaints I'll edit these comments into the draft while I am rearranging the entire document to reflect the new structure. - Jouni 3/15/2016, 2:56 PM, Lou Berger kirjoitti: > Hi Norm/Authors, > I reviewed your document and have some comments. These comments can > be addressed now or once the document becomes a WG document (your choice): > > - First let me say this is a great start and very much appreciated! > > Section 2: > - general point: I think it would be good to separate into their own > subsection, e.g., 2.1, terms that are listed for the sole purpose of > translating between IEEE 802 and DetNet terminology, e.g., listener and > relay, and keeping terms used throughout the document in the main section. > > OLD > end system > Commonly called a "host" in IETF documents, and an "end > station" is IEEE 802 documents. End systems of interest to > this document are either sources or destinations. > NEW > end system > Commonly called a "host" or "node" in IETF documents, and an "end > station" is IEEE 802 documents. End systems of interest to > this document are either sources or destinations. Note that a > system that > takes non-DetNet aware traffic and transmits it via a DetNet > flow is also an > end system. (For comparison, a Label Edge Router (LER) would be > an MPLS "end system".) > > Question: Do we need a term of the DetNet equivalent of an LER > > To relay system, add "transit node" to the list. > > Add: > > DetNet node > A DetNet aware end system or relay system. > "DetNet" may be omitted in some text. > > DetNet domain > The portion of a network that is DetNet aware. It includes end > systems, > and other DetNet nodes. > > link > A connection between two DetNet nodes. It may be composed of a > physical link > or a sub-network technology that can provide appropriate traffic > delivery for DetNet > flows. > > Section 3. > > add to (c). "This function is also know as 1+1 protection, e.g., see > [RFC6372]." > > Section 3.1 > > this section should mention allocation and scheduling or resources > that might otherwise be over subscribed and trigger congestion loss. > > Section 3.2 > > Might be worth mentioning that pinned paths are commonly used in MPLS TE > LSPs. > > Section 3.3 > > - This section should reference that "Seamless Redundancy as defined in > this section is also known as 1+1 hitless protection." > > - Adding sequence number isn't and architectural requirement, but rather > one *example* way to implement Seemless redundancy. > > > - section 4.1 > s/provisioning by relay systems and end systems sharing peer-to-peer > protocols/via control plane protocols (running on relay systems and end > systems) > > - Section 4.2.3 > s/The Network Plane/The Network Plane, which is also commonly referred > to as the data plane, > > - Section 4.2.3, second paragraph > to me UNIs and NNIs are as much about the control plane as the data > plane (see RFC5921 for examples and figures). I'm not sure if this is > what you intended or not, but scope should be clarified. Either way 5921 > is probably a better reference than 3209. > > Section 4.5 > s/not interfere excessively/coexist with > s/QoS/Class of Service (e.g., DiffServ) > > Section 4.7 > > - Add after the 1st sentence. "It may serve as the foundation for the > DetNet model which will be defined by the working group." > > Section 4.8 > s/a central controller/a central controller or decentralized control plane > > Section 4.9.2 > s/[RFC5127]/[RFC3209] or [RFC3473] > > also at end of section add: > "The integration/interaction of the DetNet control layer an underlying > IEEE 802.1 sub-network control layer will need to be defined." > > Section 4.11 > s/Layer-2 tunnels/Layer-2 connections > or > s/Layer-2 tunnels/Layer-2 VPNs > > Section 5. > > I think there's an additional point to be made, here's some suggested text: > > All DetNet enabled systems and nodes will be interconnected by > sub-networks, i.e., Layer 2 technologies. These sub-networks will > provide DetNet compatible service for support of DetNet traffic. > Examples of sub-networks include 802.1TSN and a point-to-point OTN link. > Of course, multi-layer DetNet systems may be possible too, where one > DetNet appears as a sub-network, and provides service to, a higher layer > DetNet system. > > That's it for now. > > So do you want to do an update before a WG adoption call or would you > prefer to address my comments in a -01 rev of the WG document? > > Thanks, > Lou > > > On 3/9/2016 6:29 PM, Norman Finn (nfinn) wrote: >> In our plan from November, we talked about adopting an architecture draft. >> There is a draft for one, and time comment and revise it before the >> deadline for April. Is it so good there is nothing more to say? :) :) >> >> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03.txt >> >> >> — Norm >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Tue Mar 15 17:59:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4849D12D819 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2016 17:59:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=broadcom.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q1PXvIn9SbUv for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2016 17:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x22f.google.com (mail-pf0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4CFD12D809 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2016 17:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id 124so51272385pfg.0 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2016 17:59:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fmku49asQJCdCakanZ8nq65dpxN+uPtbjEDHASMtoto=; b=U/hq7Rmw5s4mNOBTSEEzYDOygANDYWW0MmcYcc9ZxBdoXgLzoVipfk1HBssv8Hs59v QU73JoZg6D26DIr39/Fci1s7iDDjBcuozl4lQP3r4PKW5Z3u+xQoZLJJMXvZqOvZHVfq PM7bL7wc2FQvpGd8XrV6ZjTbq6coYB2UjhmsU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fmku49asQJCdCakanZ8nq65dpxN+uPtbjEDHASMtoto=; b=G2tZONZsS7MHe6+RD4bTazSnzFTP/4ZDorWGIF78h74HdkYs6psZLbagyJY21gI/L6 I3qIUqweKACt+7hdPL5B4a9WOn+QIlPdPewV+OtbqUN+aJwMR5YOUCBCa9YOTZGm1f0q PYtJIDexzv3g6JGNUnQvxn+66lqQc1s25gkMrQnBhY3p4NupVyZjHnu3CpO88+sgYSoa X39zjASKKKhTs9OOG6SgyNzaamROD1YRUr53B1qSKYnMYEkULVGuCyJUK/TD00VS5IxF vq7intJWMqfT46tUJUMX0VUEnSMqB/mzNIsouz5gag2S36maql7ODbRyK7mqvl3yVx6L bSXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIHo1p1PQnl9VRA2phXcIy6QYXFwbStkYNOe/XHdaAYam8bzUPNeYh/YLbV7Q7Wqo+J X-Received: by 10.66.122.3 with SMTP id lo3mr1515202pab.25.1458089993190; Tue, 15 Mar 2016 17:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.240.250.105] (5520-maca-inet1-outside.broadcom.com. [216.31.211.11]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m87sm603655pfj.38.2016.03.15.17.59.51 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 15 Mar 2016 17:59:52 -0700 (PDT) To: Lou Berger , "Norman Finn (nfinn)" , "detnet@ietf.org" References: <56E88507.80508@labn.net> <56E8AF88.9040406@broadcom.com> From: Jouni Korhonen Message-ID: <56E8B005.9080605@broadcom.com> Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 17:59:49 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <56E8AF88.9040406@broadcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 00:59:56 -0000 Ah bummer.. forget this mail. My brain was entirely in a different context ;-) (and it is early here). - Jouni 3/15/2016, 5:57 PM, Jouni Korhonen kirjoitti: > Thanks Lou. If I hear no complaints I'll edit these comments into the > draft while I am rearranging the entire document to reflect the new > structure. > > - Jouni > > 3/15/2016, 2:56 PM, Lou Berger kirjoitti: >> Hi Norm/Authors, >> I reviewed your document and have some comments. These comments >> can >> be addressed now or once the document becomes a WG document (your >> choice): >> >> - First let me say this is a great start and very much appreciated! >> >> Section 2: >> - general point: I think it would be good to separate into their own >> subsection, e.g., 2.1, terms that are listed for the sole purpose of >> translating between IEEE 802 and DetNet terminology, e.g., listener and >> relay, and keeping terms used throughout the document in the main >> section. >> >> OLD >> end system >> Commonly called a "host" in IETF documents, and an "end >> station" is IEEE 802 documents. End systems of interest to >> this document are either sources or destinations. >> NEW >> end system >> Commonly called a "host" or "node" in IETF documents, and >> an "end >> station" is IEEE 802 documents. End systems of interest to >> this document are either sources or destinations. Note >> that a >> system that >> takes non-DetNet aware traffic and transmits it via a DetNet >> flow is also an >> end system. (For comparison, a Label Edge Router (LER) >> would be >> an MPLS "end system".) >> >> Question: Do we need a term of the DetNet equivalent of an LER >> >> To relay system, add "transit node" to the list. >> >> Add: >> >> DetNet node >> A DetNet aware end system or relay system. >> "DetNet" may be omitted in some text. >> >> DetNet domain >> The portion of a network that is DetNet aware. It includes end >> systems, >> and other DetNet nodes. >> >> link >> A connection between two DetNet nodes. It may be composed of a >> physical link >> or a sub-network technology that can provide appropriate traffic >> delivery for DetNet >> flows. >> >> Section 3. >> >> add to (c). "This function is also know as 1+1 protection, e.g., see >> [RFC6372]." >> >> Section 3.1 >> >> this section should mention allocation and scheduling or resources >> that might otherwise be over subscribed and trigger congestion loss. >> >> Section 3.2 >> >> Might be worth mentioning that pinned paths are commonly used in MPLS TE >> LSPs. >> >> Section 3.3 >> >> - This section should reference that "Seamless Redundancy as defined in >> this section is also known as 1+1 hitless protection." >> >> - Adding sequence number isn't and architectural requirement, but rather >> one *example* way to implement Seemless redundancy. >> >> >> - section 4.1 >> s/provisioning by relay systems and end systems sharing peer-to-peer >> protocols/via control plane protocols (running on relay systems and end >> systems) >> >> - Section 4.2.3 >> s/The Network Plane/The Network Plane, which is also commonly referred >> to as the data plane, >> >> - Section 4.2.3, second paragraph >> to me UNIs and NNIs are as much about the control plane as the data >> plane (see RFC5921 for examples and figures). I'm not sure if this is >> what you intended or not, but scope should be clarified. Either way 5921 >> is probably a better reference than 3209. >> >> Section 4.5 >> s/not interfere excessively/coexist with >> s/QoS/Class of Service (e.g., DiffServ) >> >> Section 4.7 >> >> - Add after the 1st sentence. "It may serve as the foundation for the >> DetNet model which will be defined by the working group." >> >> Section 4.8 >> s/a central controller/a central controller or decentralized control >> plane >> Section 4.9.2 >> s/[RFC5127]/[RFC3209] or [RFC3473] >> >> also at end of section add: >> "The integration/interaction of the DetNet control layer an underlying >> IEEE 802.1 sub-network control layer will need to be defined." >> >> Section 4.11 >> s/Layer-2 tunnels/Layer-2 connections >> or >> s/Layer-2 tunnels/Layer-2 VPNs >> >> Section 5. >> >> I think there's an additional point to be made, here's some suggested >> text: >> >> All DetNet enabled systems and nodes will be interconnected by >> sub-networks, i.e., Layer 2 technologies. These sub-networks will >> provide DetNet compatible service for support of DetNet traffic. >> Examples of sub-networks include 802.1TSN and a point-to-point OTN link. >> Of course, multi-layer DetNet systems may be possible too, where one >> DetNet appears as a sub-network, and provides service to, a higher layer >> DetNet system. >> >> That's it for now. >> >> So do you want to do an update before a WG adoption call or would you >> prefer to address my comments in a -01 rev of the WG document? >> >> Thanks, >> Lou >> >> >> On 3/9/2016 6:29 PM, Norman Finn (nfinn) wrote: >>> In our plan from November, we talked about adopting an architecture >>> draft. >>> There is a draft for one, and time comment and revise it before the >>> deadline for April. Is it so good there is nothing more to say? >>> :) :) >>> >>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03.txt >>> >>> >>> >>> — Norm >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > From nobody Wed Mar 16 00:32:44 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE16712D793 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2016 00:32:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V9A8M_TaLtyR for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2016 00:32:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 43D8D12D6FF for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2016 00:32:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml708-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CGF00662; Wed, 16 Mar 2016 07:32:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SZXEML430-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.185) by lhreml708-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.202) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 16 Mar 2016 07:32:34 +0000 Received: from SZXEML592-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.26]) by szxeml430-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.185]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 16 Mar 2016 15:32:29 +0800 From: zhayiyong To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? Thread-Index: AQHRelt3Kp5oBujhO0u0WMJUTyyHop9bm+Tg Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 07:32:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.61.15.96] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020203.56E90C14.0079, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.26, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: f9410bc33fe562952e958dc8928f8ecf Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 07:32:42 -0000 SGkgTm9ybSwNCg0KVGhhbmsgeW91IGZvciB5b3VyIGVmZm9ydCBvbiBhcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUgZHJh ZnQuIEkgYmVsaWV2ZSBpdCBpcyBhIGdvb2Qgd29yayB0aGF0IGNvdmVycyBhbG1vc3QgZXZlcnkg YXNwZWN0cyBvZiBhIHdvcmtpbmcgc3lzdGVtIG9mIERldE5ldC4gSSBoYXZlIHNvbWUgcXVlc3Rp b25zIGFzIGZvbGxvd3MuDQpTZWN0aW9uIDM6DQpUaHJlZSBjYW5kaWRhdGUgdGVjaG5pcXVlcyBh cmUgbGlzdGVkLiBEb2VzIHRoYXQgbWVhbiB0aGUgV0cgaXMgZm9jdXNlZCBob3cgdG8gdXNlIHRo ZXNlIHRlY2huaXF1ZXMgdG8gZ3VhcmFudGVlIGZvciBleGFtcGxlIGRlbGF5IGFuZCBsb3NzPyBG b3IgcGlubmVkIHBhdGgsIGFyZSB3ZSBnb2luZyB0byBkZWZpbmUgcm91dGluZyBtZWNoYW5pc20g dG8gc2V0dXAgcmVkdW5kYW50IHBhdGhzIG9yIGp1c3QgdXRpbGl6ZSBleGlzdGluZyBtYW5hZ2Vt ZW50IHByb3RvY29scyB0byBtYW5hZ2U/IE1heWJlIGZpcnN0IHN0ZXAgd2UgY2FuIGZvY3VzIG9u IGEgZml4ZWQgcGF0aCBzY2VuYXJpby4gDQoNClNlY3Rpb24gNDoNCjQuMTogDQpUaGVyZSBhcmUg YSBsb3Qgb2YgbW9kZWxzIGJlZW4gZGlzY3Vzc2VkIGhlcmUuIEluIG15IG9waW5pb24sIHNvbWUg b2YgdGhlbSBhcmUgY2xvc2UgcmVsYXRlZCB0aGF0IGNhbiBiZSByZXByZXNlbnRlZCB1c2luZyBv bmUgbW9kZWwsIHNvbWUgYXJlIGRlcGVuZGVudCBvbiBzcGVjaWZpYyB0ZWNobmlxdWUgYmVpbmcg dXNlZCB3aGljaCBpcyBub3QgZWFzeSB0byBtb2RlbC4gU28gbWF5YmUgYWxsIHRoZSBtb2RlbHMg Y2FuIGJlIGNsYXNzaWZpZWQgYXM6IHNlcnZpY2UgbW9kZWwgdG8gZGVmaW5lIHRoZSBub3J0aGJv dW5kIGludGVyZmFjZSBmb3Igc2VydmljZSBwcm92aXNpb25pbmc7IGRldmljZSBtb2RlbC9jb25m aWd1cmF0aW9uIG1vZGVsIHRvIGRlZmluZSB0aGUgc291dGhib3VuZCBpbnRlcmZhY2U7IGluZm9y bWF0aW9uIG1vZGVsIGFuZCBkYXRhIG1vZGVsIG9mIERldE5ldCBmbG93IHRvIHJlcHJlc2VudCB0 aGUgRGV0TmV0IGZsb3cgdGhhdCBpcyB1c2VkIGJ5IGNvbnRyb2wgcGxhbmUuIFRodXMsIFlBTkcg Y2FuIGJlIHVzZWQgdG8gbW9kZWwgc2VydmljZSBtb2RlbCwgZGV2aWNlL2NvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb24g bW9kZWwgYW5kIERldE5ldCBmbG93IGRhdGEgbW9kZWwuIEluZm8gbW9kZWwgaXMgdG8gZ3VpZGUg dGhlIGRlc2lnbiBvZiBkYXRhIG1vZGVsIGFuZCBkb2VzIG5vdCBoYXZlIHRvIGJlIFlBTkcuIA0K NC4yOg0KVG8gbWUsIGFuIGNlbnRyYWxpemVkIFNETiBjb250cm9sbGVyIGJhc2VkIGFyY2hpdGVj dHVyZSBpcyBpbnRyb2R1Y2VkLiBCdXQgaW4gb3BlbiBxdWVzdGlvbiBwZWVyLXRvLXBlZXIgcHJv dG9jb2wgaXMgc3RpbGwgbWVudGlvbmVkIGluIGNhc2Ugb2YgZGlzdHJpYnV0ZWQgYXJjaGl0ZWN0 dXJlLiBNYXliZSB3ZSBjYW4gdXNlIGNvbnRyb2xsZXItYmFzZWQgYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlIGJ1dCBz dGlsbCBhZG9wdCBzb21lIGRpc3RyaWJ1dGVkIHByb3RvY29scy4gRm9yIGV4YW1wbGUsIHVzaW5n IGNlbnRyYWwgY29udHJvbGxlciBmb3Igc29tZSBqb2IgdGhhdCBuZWVkcyBnbG9iYWwgaW5mb3Jt YXRpb24gc3VjaCBhcyBQQ0UgYW5kIHJvdXRpbmcsIHdoaWxlIHVzaW5nIGRpc3RyaWJ1dGVkIHBy b3RvY29scyB0byByZXNlcnZlIHJlc291cmNlIHNvIHRoZSBEZXROZXQgZmxvdyBkb2VzIG5vdCBo YXZlIHRvIHdhaXQgdGhlIGNvbW11bmljYXRpb24gYmV0d2VlbiBjb250cm9sbGVyIGFuZCBORXMu DQo0LjU6DQpSZXNvdXJjZSBzaGFyaW5nIGlzIG9ubHkgYWxsb3dlZCBiZXR3ZWVuIERldE5ldCBm bG93IGFuZCBub3JtYWwgZmxvdy4gQWxsIERldE5ldCBmbG93cyBhcmUgc2NoZWR1bGVkIHdpdGgg cmVzb3VyY2UgdGhhdCBjYW5ub3QgYmUgc2hhcmVkIGFtb25nIERldE5ldCBmbG93cy4gQW5kIGNv cnJlY3QgbWUgaWYgSSBhbSB3cm9uZywgYnVyc3RuZXNzIGlzIG5vdCB0YWtpbmcgaW50byBhY2Nv dW50IGFzIGl0IHN1cHBvc2Ugc2hhcGluZyBjYW4gc29sdmUgdGhpcy4gQW5kIG9uZSBtb3JlIHF1 ZXN0aW9uIGNhbiBiZSBzY2hlZHVsYWJpbGl0eSBwcm9ibGVtLCB3aXRoIGdpdmVuIGZsb3dzIHdp dGggZGVsYXkgcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzIGFuZCBnaXZlbiByZXNvdXJjZSwgY2FuIHRoZSByZXF1aXJl bWVudHMgYmUgbWVldD8gIA0KDQpTZWN0aW9uIDY6DQpGb3IgdGhlIG9wZW4gcXVlc3Rpb24sIHdl IHdvdWxkIGxpa2UgdG8gZG8gbW9yZSBvbiBmbG93IGlkZW50aWZpY2F0aW9uIGFuZCBwZWVyLXRv LXBlZXIgcmVzZXJ2YXRpb24gcHJvdG9jb2xzLiANCg0KQ2hlZXJzLA0KWWl5b25nIFpoYQ0KDQot LS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogZGV0bmV0IFttYWlsdG86ZGV0bmV0LWJv dW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBOb3JtYW4gRmlubiAobmZpbm4pDQpTZW50OiBU aHVyc2RheSwgTWFyY2ggMTAsIDIwMTYgNzoyOSBBTQ0KVG86IGRldG5ldEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KU3Vi amVjdDogW0RldG5ldF0gZHJhZnQtZmlubi1kZXRuZXQtYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLTAzIGNvbW1lbnRz Pz8NCg0KSW4gb3VyIHBsYW4gZnJvbSBOb3ZlbWJlciwgd2UgdGFsa2VkIGFib3V0IGFkb3B0aW5n IGFuIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZSBkcmFmdC4NClRoZXJlIGlzIGEgZHJhZnQgZm9yIG9uZSwgYW5kIHRp bWUgY29tbWVudCBhbmQgcmV2aXNlIGl0IGJlZm9yZSB0aGUgZGVhZGxpbmUgZm9yIEFwcmlsLiAg SXMgaXQgc28gZ29vZCB0aGVyZSBpcyBub3RoaW5nIG1vcmUgdG8gc2F5PyAgOikgIDopDQoNCmh0 dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL2ludGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0cy9kcmFmdC1maW5uLWRldG5ldC1hcmNo aXRlY3R1cmUtMDMudHh0DQoNCg0K4oCUIE5vcm0NCg0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCmRldG5ldCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCmRldG5ldEBpZXRm Lm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9kZXRuZXQNCg== From nobody Wed Mar 16 02:11:47 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B22E12D8DE for ; 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Wed, 16 Mar 2016 09:11:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SZXEML424-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.153) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.93) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 16 Mar 2016 09:11:40 +0000 Received: from SZXEML592-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.26]) by SZXEML424-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.153]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 16 Mar 2016 17:10:48 +0800 From: zhayiyong To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet-requirments-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRf2MpCt/V1eB/zkaJsRPj5nuiEZ9bx5bw Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 09:10:48 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.61.15.96] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A010202.56E9234D.0011, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.26, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: da7e460a881a9333ecc221ef7eb6167d Archived-At: Cc: "liang.geng@hotmail.com" Subject: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet-requirments-00.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 09:11:45 -0000 SGkgRm9sa3MsDQoNCkhlcmUgaXMgYSByZXF1aXJlbWVudHMgZHJhZnQgZm9yIHlvdXIgcmVhZGlu ZyBwbGVhc3VyZS4gVGhlIG5hbWUgbWF5IG5vdCBiZSBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZWQgc2luY2UgdGhlIGRy YWZ0IHRhbGtzIGFib3V0IHNvbWUgdGVjaG5pY2FsIGNvbnNpZGVyYXRpb24gb24gZGF0YSBwbGFu ZSwgY29udHJvbCBwbGFuZSBhbmQgbW9kZWxpbmcuIFdlIHRha2UgdGhpcyBvbmUgYXMgYW4gaW5w dXQgZm9yIGRpc2N1c3Npb24uIA0KDQpDaGVlcnMsDQpZaXlvbmcgWmhhDQoNCg0KLS0tLS1Pcmln aW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IGludGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0c0BpZXRmLm9yZyBbbWFpbHRv OmludGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0c0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gDQpTZW50OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIE1hcmNoIDE2LCAy MDE2IDU6MDcgUE0NClRvOiA0YyA2OSA2MSA2ZSA2NyAyMCA0NyA2NSA2ZSA2NzsgTGlhbmcgR2Vu ZzsgemhheWl5b25nDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBOZXcgVmVyc2lvbiBOb3RpZmljYXRpb24gZm9yIGRyYWZ0 LXpoYS1kZXRuZXQtcmVxdWlybWVudHMtMDAudHh0DQoNCg0KQSBuZXcgdmVyc2lvbiBvZiBJLUQs IGRyYWZ0LXpoYS1kZXRuZXQtcmVxdWlybWVudHMtMDAudHh0DQpoYXMgYmVlbiBzdWNjZXNzZnVs bHkgc3VibWl0dGVkIGJ5IFlpeW9uZyBaaGEgYW5kIHBvc3RlZCB0byB0aGUgSUVURiByZXBvc2l0 b3J5Lg0KDQpOYW1lOgkJZHJhZnQtemhhLWRldG5ldC1yZXF1aXJtZW50cw0KUmV2aXNpb246CTAw DQpUaXRsZToJCURldGVybWluaXN0aWMgTmV0d29ya2luZyBSZXF1aXJlbWVudHMgb24gRGF0YSBh bmQgQ29udHJvbCBQbGFuZQ0KRG9jdW1lbnQgZGF0ZToJMjAxNi0wMy0xNg0KR3JvdXA6CQlJbmRp dmlkdWFsIFN1Ym1pc3Npb24NClBhZ2VzOgkJMTINClVSTDogICAgICAgICAgICBodHRwczovL3d3 dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9pbnRlcm5ldC1kcmFmdHMvZHJhZnQtemhhLWRldG5ldC1yZXF1aXJtZW50cy0w MC50eHQNClN0YXR1czogICAgICAgICBodHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9k cmFmdC16aGEtZGV0bmV0LXJlcXVpcm1lbnRzLw0KSHRtbGl6ZWQ6ICAgICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vdG9v bHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9kcmFmdC16aGEtZGV0bmV0LXJlcXVpcm1lbnRzLTAwDQoNCg0KQWJz dHJhY3Q6DQogICBEZXRlcm1pbmlzdGljIE5ldHdvcmtpbmcgKERldE5ldCkgaXMgZm9jdXNlZCBv biBob3cgdG8gc2VydmUgdGltZQ0KICAgY3JpdGljYWwgZmxvdyB3aXRoIGxvdyBkYXRhIGxvc3Mg YW5kIGJvdW5kZWQgZGVsYXkuIFVubGlrZQ0KICAgY29udGVtcG9yYXJ5IHNvbHV0aW9uIHdoaWNo IGltcHJvdmVzIFFvUyBzdWNoIGFzIFRFLCByZWR1bmRhbnQNCiAgIGJhbmR3aWR0aCBwcm92aXNp b25pbmcgYW5kIGRlZGljYXRlZCBjaGFubmVsIHJlc2VydmF0aW9uLCBEZXROZXQNCiAgIHByb3Zp ZGVzIG1vcmUgZ2VuZXJhbCBhcHByb2FjaGVzIHRoYXQgdXNlIElQLWJhc2VkIHRlY2huaXF1ZXMg YW5kDQogICBndWFyYW50ZWUgdGhlIHdvcnN0LWNhc2UgbGF0ZW5jeSBvZiBEZXROZXQgZmxvd3Mg d2hpbGUgYWxsb3dpbmcNCiAgIHNoYXJpbmcgYW1vbmcgYmVzdC1lZmZvcnQgZmxvd3MuIEZvciB0 aGlzIHB1cnBvc2UsIERldE5ldCBtYXkNCiAgIHJlcXVpcmUgdXBncmFkZWQgb3IgcmVkZWZpbmVk IGRhdGEgcGxhbmUgYXMgd2VsbCBhcyBjb250cm9sIHBsYW5lLA0KICAgc2luY2UgY3VycmVudCBu ZXR3b3JraW5nIGNhbm5vdCBhc3N1cmUgbWF4aW11bSBlbmQtdG8tZW5kIGxhdGVuY3kuDQogICBU aGlzIGRvY3VtZW50IGRlc2NyaWJlcyBzb21lIHRlY2huaWNhbCByZXF1aXJlbWVudHMgb24gcG9z c2libGUNCiAgIGRhdGEgcGxhbmUsIGNvbnRyb2wgcGxhbmUgYW5kIERldE5ldCBmbG93IG1vZGVs aW5nIHRoYXQgY2FuIGhlbHANCiAgIHRvIGNsYXJpZnkgdGhvc2UgY2FwYWJpbGl0aWVzIERldE5l dCBzaG91bGQgaGF2ZS4NCg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIA0KDQoNClBsZWFzZSBu b3RlIHRoYXQgaXQgbWF5IHRha2UgYSBjb3VwbGUgb2YgbWludXRlcyBmcm9tIHRoZSB0aW1lIG9m IHN1Ym1pc3Npb24gdW50aWwgdGhlIGh0bWxpemVkIHZlcnNpb24gYW5kIGRpZmYgYXJlIGF2YWls YWJsZSBhdCB0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy4NCg0KVGhlIElFVEYgU2VjcmV0YXJpYXQNCg0K From nobody Wed Mar 16 19:48:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D52B12D81C for ; 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Thu, 17 Mar 2016 02:39:49 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-018.cisco.com (173.37.102.28) by XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com (173.36.7.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 16 Mar 2016 21:39:49 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-018.cisco.com ([173.37.102.28]) by XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com ([173.37.102.28]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Wed, 16 Mar 2016 21:39:48 -0500 From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" To: Lou Berger , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? Thread-Index: AQHRelt3Kp5oBujhO0u0WMJUTyyHop9baiGAgAJnnAA= Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 02:39:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <56E88507.80508@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <56E88507.80508@labn.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.1.160122 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.79.99.84] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <7F1BC887B0FC37409DB9C62043DEAB7F@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? 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Thread-Index: AQHRelt3Kp5oBujhO0u0WMJUTyyHop9baiGAgAJnnACAAAZ8AA== Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 03:02:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: <56E88507.80508@labn.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.1.160122 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.79.99.84] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <47524C4903F3874EA60D418483A4F87B@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? 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([173.37.102.28]) by XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com ([173.37.102.28]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Wed, 16 Mar 2016 22:34:37 -0500 From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" To: "Simon Barber (sibarber)" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? Thread-Index: AQHRevvsDjOGF+42/0ml6rbgHyTzdZ9bcVcAgAJudoA= Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 03:34:37 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.1.160122 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.79.99.84] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D30F416A49AB4nfinnciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "detnet@ietf.org" , "Schmitt, Juergen" Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 03:34:46 -0000 --_000_D30F416A49AB4nfinnciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSBhZ3JlZSBjb21wbGV0ZWx5IHdpdGggeW91ciBjb21tZW50cyBhYm91dCA4MDIuMTEuICBUaGUg dGVybWlub2xvZ3kgaW4gdGhlIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZSBkcmFmdCBjZXJ0YWlubHkgZG9lc27igJl0 IHByb2hpYml0IHRoZSB1c2Ugb2YgODAyLjExIGxpbmtzLiAgVGhlIGFkb3B0ZWQgdXNlIGNhc2Vz IGRyYWZ0IGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtZGV0bmV0LXVzZS1jYXNlcy0wOCB0YWxrcyBhYm91dCB3aXJlbGVz cyBpbmR1c3RyaWFsIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9ucy4gIFRoZXJlIGFyZSBhIG51bWJlciBvZiByZWZlcmVu Y2VzIGluIHRoZSBhcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUgZHJhZnQgdG8gd2lyZWxlc3MgdGVjaG5vbG9naWVzIGlu IHRoZSDigJxJbmZvcm1hdGl2ZSBSZWZlcmVuY2Vz4oCdIHNlY3Rpb24uDQoNCk9uIHRoZSBvdGhl ciBoYW5kLCB0aGVyZSBpc27igJl0IGFueXRoaW5nIHNwZWNpZmljIGFib3V0IHdpcmVsZXNzIG9y 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id 15.00.1104.009; Wed, 16 Mar 2016 22:34:40 -0500 From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" To: zhayiyong , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? Thread-Index: AQHRf/3wDjOGF+42/0ml6rbgHyTzdQ== Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 03:34:40 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.1.160122 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.79.99.84] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 03:35:03 -0000 VGhhbmtzIGZvciB0aGUgcmV2aWV3ISAgUmVzcG9uc2VzIGluLWxpbmUuDQoNCuKAlCBOb3JtDQoN Ci0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBkZXRuZXQgPGRldG5ldC1ib3VuY2Vz QGlldGYub3JnPiBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2YgemhheWl5b25nDQo8emhheWl5b25nQGh1YXdlaS5jb20+ DQpEYXRlOiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIE1hcmNoIDE2LCAyMDE2IGF0IDE1OjMyIFBNDQpUbzogTm9ybWFu IEZpbm4gPG5maW5uQGNpc2NvLmNvbT4sICJkZXRuZXRAaWV0Zi5vcmciIDxkZXRuZXRAaWV0Zi5v cmc+DQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW0RldG5ldF0gZHJhZnQtZmlubi1kZXRuZXQtYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJl LTAzIGNvbW1lbnRzPz8NCg0KPkhpIE5vcm0sDQo+DQo+VGhhbmsgeW91IGZvciB5b3VyIGVmZm9y dCBvbiBhcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUgZHJhZnQuIEkgYmVsaWV2ZSBpdCBpcyBhIGdvb2QNCj53b3JrIHRo YXQgY292ZXJzIGFsbW9zdCBldmVyeSBhc3BlY3RzIG9mIGEgd29ya2luZyBzeXN0ZW0gb2YgRGV0 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Oi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZGV0bmV0DQo+X19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj5kZXRuZXQgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+ ZGV0bmV0QGlldGYub3JnDQo+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9k ZXRuZXQNCg0K From nobody Thu Mar 17 06:18:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 381B312D919 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 06:18:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost 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h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:Cc:References:To:Subject; bh=jqWh7VKYeHtLSegzboRYjxsyV1rlwflh+bs5MMOrXYg=; b=nGksZ6fRt6dBfZ1cZmgBeDTx59 Co4zqyxqWSfx9OKHDSlnWbqMqjQe23MJmsLzX/Y0oG0csMzitQmMzAYT71PeZUwrhXR++zoloSVhx DpBUvgKXMi8E3ET/WBESSfRIw; Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]:41433 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1agXoR-0001Ck-2r; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 07:18:03 -0600 To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" , "detnet@ietf.org" References: <56E88507.80508@labn.net> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <56EAAE86.1010402@labn.net> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 09:17:58 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: Cc: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 13:18:28 -0000 Norm, Thanks for the response. See below. On 3/16/2016 10:39 PM, Norman Finn (nfinn) wrote: > Lou, > > Thank you for the comments. They look very useful. > > I don’t see any open-ended comments, here, and they make sense. I’ll > incorporate at least most of your comments (and a few others — see other > emails) today, and upload a new version for adoption before the deadline. > Exactly which and how many comments depend on how much interaction we > managed to have before Monday. > > A few comments/questions for you in-line, below. Assume remarked comments > are fine with me. > > — Norm > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lou Berger > Date: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 at 05:56 AM > To: Norman Finn , "detnet@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? > >> Hi Norm/Authors, >> I reviewed your document and have some comments. These comments can >> be addressed now or once the document becomes a WG document (your choice): >> >> - First let me say this is a great start and very much appreciated! >> >> Section 2: >> - general point: I think it would be good to separate into their own >> subsection, e.g., 2.1, terms that are listed for the sole purpose of >> translating between IEEE 802 and DetNet terminology, e.g., listener and >> relay, and keeping terms used throughout the document in the main section. >> >> OLD >> end system >> Commonly called a "host" in IETF documents, and an "end >> station" is IEEE 802 documents. End systems of interest to >> this document are either sources or destinations. >> NEW >> end system >> Commonly called a "host" or "node" in IETF documents, and an >> "end >> station" is IEEE 802 documents. End systems of interest to >> this document are either sources or destinations. Note that a >> system that >> takes non-DetNet aware traffic and transmits it via a DetNet >> flow is also an >> end system. (For comparison, a Label Edge Router (LER) would be >> an MPLS "end system".) >> >> Question: Do we need a term of the DetNet equivalent of an LER > Interesting question. I don’t think I’d put that in, without some more > discussion. We have the concept in P802.1CB of the end system DetNet > functions as a lump that can be on either end of the wire connecting the > end system to the first relay system. lump; cool, a new networking term -- a rare commodity! (In MPLS speak, I believe this is an LER. In MPLS-TP and LxVPN contexts, this is a PE when the CE doesn't talk MPLS). > So, is a relay system with 1000 > ordinary relay system DetNet ports and one lump an LER? If the one port > configured for that capability is down at the moment? Well, yes, but it’s > also, and mostly, a relay system. I need to get a better feel for what an > LER is/isn’t before I add that to the document, so I don’t say something > stupid. I don’t know if there is time before the deadline. That's fine. The document isn't even a -00 WG draft so there is time to work this out. > ... > - section 4.1 > s/provisioning by relay systems and end systems sharing peer-to-peer > protocols/via control plane protocols (running on relay systems and end > systems) > > - Section 4.2.3 > s/The Network Plane/The Network Plane, which is also commonly referred > to as the data plane, > I don’t think that’s what Pascal meant, here. As I read it, the intention > here is that the Network plane includes nailed-down paths that DetNet > flows might use. It would also include the RSVP-TE that might be used to > nail that path down. Humm, I included RSVP-TE and other control plane protocols as part of the controller plane. The differences to me there is off-path (logically centralized) vs on-path (fully distributed) control. See mote on this below. >> - Section 4.2.3, second paragraph >> to me UNIs and NNIs are as much about the control plane as the data >> plane (see RFC5921 for examples and figures). I'm not sure if this is >> what you intended or not, but scope should be clarified. Either way 5921 >> is probably a better reference than 3209. > The Network Plane includes both control and data aspects. The usage here > is that UNI and NNI are definitely control plane. That’s how I’m used to > using those terms over the years in ATM, ITU-T, and IEEE. Is that > different in IETF? I think I just don't understand these new terms. I get management, control, data and even policy planes. I don't understand the distinction being drawn by these new terms. Looking at Figure 2, I clearly see (and understand) the Application, Control, Management planes. Where things get fuzzy is in the 'Network Device' box (which is not labeled as a plane -- a good thing). In it I see the Forwarding Plane, and the Operational Plane. How about this: change "Network Device" to "Data Plane", "Forwarding Plane" to "Forwarding", "Operational Plane" to "OAM" . ( per the charter OAM = Operations, Administration, and Maintenance) And then after the figure add some text along the lines of: The presented figure is logical view, and actual protocols and implementation platforms are not shown. For example the Control Plane may be implemented via: a fully distributed control plane running on network devices, e.g., as found in some MPLS implementations; a fully centralized "SDN" controller; or a hybrid approach where some control functions are distributed to the network devices and others reside in a more centralized controller, e.g., stateful PCE. I understand that this is a departure from the pure SDN model presented in 7426, but DetNet isn't so narrowly scoped so it's architecture document shouldn't be either. The rest of the section will then need to be tweaked to line up with these changes. Thanks, Lou >> Section 4.5 >> s/not interfere excessively/coexist with >> s/QoS/Class of Service (e.g., DiffServ) >> >> Section 4.7 >> >> - Add after the 1st sentence. "It may serve as the foundation for the >> DetNet model which will be defined by the working group." >> >> Section 4.8 >> s/a central controller/a central controller or decentralized control plane >> >> Section 4.9.2 >> s/[RFC5127]/[RFC3209] or [RFC3473] >> >> also at end of section add: >> "The integration/interaction of the DetNet control layer an underlying >> IEEE 802.1 sub-network control layer will need to be defined." >> >> Section 4.11 >> s/Layer-2 tunnels/Layer-2 connections >> or >> s/Layer-2 tunnels/Layer-2 VPNs >> >> Section 5. >> >> I think there's an additional point to be made, here's some suggested >> text: >> >> All DetNet enabled systems and nodes will be interconnected by >> sub-networks, i.e., Layer 2 technologies. These sub-networks will >> provide DetNet compatible service for support of DetNet traffic. >> Examples of sub-networks include 802.1TSN and a point-to-point OTN link. >> Of course, multi-layer DetNet systems may be possible too, where one >> DetNet appears as a sub-network, and provides service to, a higher layer >> DetNet system. >> >> That's it for now. >> >> So do you want to do an update before a WG adoption call or would you >> prefer to address my comments in a -01 rev of the WG document? >> >> Thanks, >> Lou >> >> >> On 3/9/2016 6:29 PM, Norman Finn (nfinn) wrote: >>> In our plan from November, we talked about adopting an architecture >>> draft. >>> There is a draft for one, and time comment and revise it before the >>> deadline for April. Is it so good there is nothing more to say? :) :) >>> >>> >>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03.tx >>> t >>> >>> >>> — Norm >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Thu Mar 17 06:40:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 010F112DBE3 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 06:40:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=meraki.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bADs7cpLMGX6 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 06:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x233.google.com (mail-io0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B374112D94D for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 06:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x233.google.com with SMTP id n190so99388604iof.0 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 06:40:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=meraki.net; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=C4c1Ar0ank9Wmpq8/EtbCrMMOFVuioWI7/B0uIkIjAc=; b=eeiYHoDFNjxINegh4Rdq7KNS9X4W8Qhlw+nRVIXcnUsFNgvG+p0KmhnUmUn3zWP8Yb DSs1S7Ku/6q3ijQoR8HpRNruza1FWdrWZ13jMzgwV8Ny4b/OvzTdKTb/O7CwGlzusHuD QkukCXkWmmTrnudrsMuJcHdUbp3B3tk39gXuI= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=C4c1Ar0ank9Wmpq8/EtbCrMMOFVuioWI7/B0uIkIjAc=; b=f/d0YDZZWzkDuO6Coce1qgyqUabc4Y6UaBCKbCscDj8ZgGNuMI+mhfSWD943+XnSXP ngzXtoN6HrUwGo4Llci4UB4jtmPff2+YxPOX6+Gr5Gq2sQvQAEKHpb4YUZGq1WbYQUiI XvKXQtubI2WIX5t3tFI3vSNMep77icNrvM6zQJZ+lHV9d7GdAJfIv6TYgs+Nc20XDZJv v8UNUELPWGfSfHcpMgz60vihdfUvXpx59hNCA82xrgVSRUsgChhObDrmzf36QaYqqzhI XLdTJnTAtDRXMYEExjfwfFnZWz/2OAORauwPjue9UNquy1uDcWLYd7JnjSBZia6Jxn5h c2gw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIriLjDWAAEF/iKu5wW824xw6YpoAbNMGgoGaJAkKVomIgs9FrZbZTmI6GWuCF2/9iSHLFShkQmJtqDX6M6 X-Received: by 10.107.34.201 with SMTP id i192mr9703499ioi.161.1458222020014; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 06:40:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.145.198 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 06:40:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Simon Barber Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 06:40:00 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1140e10c81ce06052e3ec57e Archived-At: Cc: "detnet@ietf.org" , "Schmitt, Juergen" Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 13:40:32 -0000 --001a1140e10c81ce06052e3ec57e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks! The main point is that in an unlicensed band the FCC part 15 says that 'you will accept all interference' - thus it is impossible to provide any guarantee of service. In reality you never know when the neighbor is going to start to occupy the medium. In practice, in almost all situations by using the appropriate priority mechanisms correctly you can get the traffic you need delivered with decent latency bounds. It is a shared medium though, so guarantees are not possible. Simon On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 8:34 PM, Norman Finn (nfinn) wrote: > I agree completely with your comments about 802.11. The terminology in > the architecture draft certainly doesn=E2=80=99t prohibit the use of 802.= 11 links. > The adopted use cases draft draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-08 talks about > wireless industrial applications. There are a number of references in th= e > architecture draft to wireless technologies in the =E2=80=9CInformative R= eferences=E2=80=9D > section. > > On the other hand, there isn=E2=80=99t anything specific about wireless o= r 802.11 > in the main text. I=E2=80=99d say that=E2=80=99s something that needs to= be corrected. > Unless someone has a better suggestion, I=E2=80=99ll put in a placeholder= , and > mention your points about latency, retries, and reliability before Monday= . > > Thanks!! > > =E2=80=94 Norm > > From: "Simon Barber (sibarber)" > Date: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 at 06:26 AM > To: Norman Finn > Cc: "Schmitt, Juergen" , " > detnet@ietf.org" > > Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? > > In 802.11 networks it is not possible to guarantee delay (fundamentally > due to use of unlicensed part 15 spectrum), yet it is possible to control > it to acceptable limits in most practical situations. Does the terminolog= y > in use here allow for use cases where an 802.11 link is involved? > > On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Norman Finn (nfinn) > wrote: > >> See in-line >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: detnet on behalf of "Schmitt, Juergen" >> >> Date: Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 07:14 AM >> To: "detnet@ietf.org" >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? >> >> >Hi Norm, >> > >> >First of all thank you for the great work in this document. >> >I have just collected some notes which may be interesting to talk about= . >> > >> >In the following I copied parts of the clause in question with may >> >proposal for change: >> > >> > >> >Snippet: >> >> >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D >> >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> >2. Terminology >> >... >> > >> > reservation >> > A trail of configuration from source to destination(s) >> > through relay systems associated with a DetNet flow, require= d >> > to deliver the benefits of DetNet. >> > >> >END-Snippet: >> >> >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D >> >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> > >> >I don=E2=80=99t see that the flow of configuration is just from source = to >> >destination. I would argue in some of today=E2=80=99s RSVP-Models the = opposite >> >is true. >> >Many models are imaginable. So I wouldn=E2=80=99t mention any directio= n here. >> >> Maybe, =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 Configuration between source and destination(s= ) =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D >> >> >Snippet: >> >> >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D >> >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> >3. Providing the DetNet Quality of Service >> > >> >DetNet Quality of Service is expressed in terms of: >> > >> >o Minimum and maximum end-to-end latency from source to destination; >> > >> >o Probability of loss of a packet, assuming the normal operation of >> >the relay systems and links; >> > >> >o Probability of loss of a packet in the event of the failure of a >> >relay system or link. >> > >> >o Delay variation <-- NEW >> > >> >END-Snippet: >> >> >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D >> >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> > >> >Delay variation is in my opinion also a very important criteria for >> >Quality of Service. >> >There are use-cases where it is more important, that the Packet arrives >> >Just-In-Time, than the raw >> >End-to-end latency. >> >> Delay variation is critical, of course. But isn=E2=80=99t that covered = by minimum >> and maximum latency? =E2=80=9CDelay variation=E2=80=9D is often used in= a probabilistic >> sense around a mean, and probability has no place in DetNet. In IEEE 80= 2, >> we have been speaking in terms of an absolute must-deliver-before (max >> latency) and an absolute must-deliver-after (min latency). It=E2=80=99s= just a >> matter of how you juggle the numbers; you could talk about worst-case ma= x >> latency and delay variation, instead of max latency and min latency, but >> you don=E2=80=99t want all three terms, and IMO, =E2=80=9Cdelay variatio= n=E2=80=9D carries >> unwanted plus-or-minus baggage that confuses the issue. >> >> >Just a comment to clause 6.4. Peer-to-peer reservation protocol: >> > >> >I think this is a interesting model. It is surely debatable within the >> >network. But as an Interface for endstations (Talkers and Listeners) th= is >> >can be very useful. >> >Not to forget about small customer networks which need also a simple to >> >administer network with end-to-end QoS and Ad-Hoc reservation. >> >> Thank you for the helpful comments. >> >> =E2=80=94 Norm >> >> >Best regards, >> >J=C3=BCrgen >> > >> > >> >-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- >> >Von: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von Norman Finn >> >(nfinn) >> >Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. M=C3=A4rz 2016 00:29 >> >An: detnet@ietf.org >> >Betreff: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? >> > >> >In our plan from November, we talked about adopting an architecture >> draft. >> >There is a draft for one, and time comment and revise it before the >> >deadline for April. Is it so good there is nothing more to say? :) := ) >> > >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03.t= xt >> > >> > >> >=E2=80=94 Norm >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >detnet mailing list >> >detnet@ietf.org >> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> >_______________________________________________ >> >detnet mailing list >> >detnet@ietf.org >> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> > > --001a1140e10c81ce06052e3ec57e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks!

The main point is that in an un= licensed band the FCC part 15 says that 'you will accept all interferen= ce' - thus it is impossible to provide any guarantee of service. In rea= lity you never know when the neighbor is going to start to occupy the mediu= m. In practice, in almost all situations by using the appropriate priority = mechanisms correctly you can get the traffic you need delivered with decent= latency bounds. It is a shared medium though, so guarantees are not possib= le.

Simon
On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 8:34 PM, Norman Finn (= nfinn) <nfinn@cisco.com> wrote:
I agree completely with your comments about 802.11.=C2=A0 The terminol= ogy in the architecture draft certainly doesn=E2=80=99t prohibit the use of= 802.11 links.=C2=A0 The adopted use cases draft draft-ietf-detnet-use-case= s-08 talks about wireless industrial applications. =C2=A0There are a number of references in the architecture draft to wirele= ss technologies in the =E2=80=9CInformative References=E2=80=9D section.

On the other hand, there isn=E2=80=99t anything specific about wireles= s or 802.11 in the main text.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d say that=E2=80=99s somethin= g that needs to be corrected.=C2=A0 Unless someone has a better suggestion,= I=E2=80=99ll put in a placeholder, and mention your points about latency, retries, and reliability before Monday.

Thanks!!

=E2=80=94 Norm

From: "Simon Barber (sibarber)= " <sim= on.barber@meraki.net>
Date: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 at = 06:26 AM
To: Norman Finn <nfinn@cisco.com>
Cc: "Schmitt, Juergen" &l= t;jue= rgen.jues.schmitt@siemens.com>, "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-de= tnet-architecture-03 comments??

In 802.11 networks it is not possible to guarantee delay (= fundamentally due to use of unlicensed part 15 spectrum), yet it is possibl= e to control it to acceptable limits in most practical situations. Does the= terminology in use here allow for use cases where an 802.11 link is involved?

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Norman Finn (n= finn) <nfinn@cisco.com> wrote:
See in-line

-----Original Message-----
From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Schmitt, Juergen"= ;
<j= uergen.jues.schmitt@siemens.com>
Date: Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 07:14 AM
To: "detnet@ietf.= org" <detn= et@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments??

>Hi Norm,
>
>First of all thank you for the great work in this document.
>I have just collected some notes which may be interesting to talk about= .
>
>In the following I copied parts of the clause in question with may
>proposal for change:
>
>
>Snippet:
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>2.=C2=A0 Terminology
>...
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0reservation
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A trail of configuration from = source to destination(s)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0through relay systems associat= ed with a DetNet flow, required
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to deliver the benefits of Det= Net.
>
>END-Snippet:
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>I don=E2=80=99t see that the flow of configuration is just from source = to
>destination. I would argue in some of=C2=A0 today=E2=80=99s RSVP-Models= the opposite
>is true.
>Many models are imaginable.=C2=A0 So I wouldn=E2=80=99t mention any dir= ection here.

Maybe, =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 Configuration between source and destination(s) = =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D

>Snippet:
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>3. Providing the DetNet Quality of Service
>
>DetNet Quality of Service is expressed in terms of:
>
>o Minimum and maximum end-to-end latency from source to destination; >
>o Probability of loss of a packet, assuming the normal operation of
>the relay systems and links;
>
>o Probability of loss of a packet in the event of the failure of a
>relay system or link.
>
>o Delay variation <-- NEW
>
>END-Snippet:
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>Delay variation is in my opinion also a very important criteria for
>Quality of Service.
>There are use-cases where it is more important, that the Packet arrives=
>Just-In-Time, than the raw
>End-to-end latency.

Delay variation is critical, of course.=C2=A0 But isn=E2=80=99t that= covered by minimum
and maximum latency?=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CDelay variation=E2=80=9D is often used = in a probabilistic
sense around a mean, and probability has no place in DetNet.=C2=A0 In IEEE = 802,
we have been speaking in terms of an absolute must-deliver-before (max
latency) and an absolute must-deliver-after (min latency).=C2=A0 It=E2=80= =99s just a
matter of how you juggle the numbers; you could talk about worst-case max latency and delay variation, instead of max latency and min latency, but you don=E2=80=99t want all three terms, and IMO, =E2=80=9Cdelay variation= =E2=80=9D carries
unwanted plus-or-minus baggage that confuses the issue.

>Just a comment to clause 6.4. Peer-to-peer reservation protocol:
>
>I think this is a interesting model. It is surely debatable within the<= br> >network. But as an Interface for endstations (Talkers and Listeners) th= is
>can be very useful.
>Not to forget about small customer networks which need also a simple to=
>administer network with end-to-end QoS and Ad-Hoc reservation.

Thank you for the helpful comments.

=E2=80=94 Norm

>Best regards,
>J=C3=BCrgen
>
>
>-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht-----
>Von: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von Norman Finn
>(nfinn)
>Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. M=C3=A4rz 2016 00:29
>An: detnet@ietf.or= g
>Betreff: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments??
>
>In our plan from November, we talked about adopting an architecture dra= ft.
>There is a draft for one, and time comment and revise it before the
>deadline for April.=C2=A0 Is it so good there is nothing more to say?= =C2=A0 :)=C2=A0 :)
>
>https://www.ietf.org/i= nternet-drafts/draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03.txt
>
>
>=E2=80=94 Norm
>
>_______________________________________________
>detnet mailing list
>detnet@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
>_______________________________________________
>detnet mailing list
>detnet@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

--001a1140e10c81ce06052e3ec57e-- From nobody Thu Mar 17 09:23:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C2D012D883 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 09:22:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5Y-gXg6Wx4cd for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 09:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy9-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy9-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.20.122]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0F69E12DC2C for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 09:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 17129 invoked by uid 0); 17 Mar 2016 16:22:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO CMOut01) (10.0.90.82) by gproxy9.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 17 Mar 2016 16:22:46 -0000 Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by CMOut01 with id X4Nf1s00d2SSUrH014Ni3e; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 10:22:44 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=G/WPTbU5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=-NfooI8aBGcA:10 a=uEJ9t1CZtbIA:10 a=7OsogOcEt9IA:10 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=-tsAPJKn6S7ax0J5AdsA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:Cc:To:Subject:From; bh=gNROHQyezFI2nVvqtfFo4V04mz7fcVmG4l6UMuQaYo4=; b=CT9yp/S/9+EfAXNCW7m0+3jd3A oM4nzsm0cPO9ciJKTB5Bwel/uT7iiDllCTKcpkra3eNGsIINl0wNKwGEKhif6gW7gQMBvtJkdvd/k VDSnO4lAYiayssfaduSYrHSPZ; Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]:58059 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1agah7-0002mi-1Y; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 10:22:41 -0600 From: Lou Berger To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Message-ID: <56EAD9CD.90809@labn.net> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 12:22:37 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: Cc: DetNet WG , DetNet Chairs Subject: [Detnet] Regarding IPR on draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 16:22:59 -0000 Authors, Contributors, WG, As part of the preparation for WG Adoption Are you aware of any IPR that applies to drafts identified above? 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: DetNet WG , DetNet Chairs Subject: Re: [Detnet] Regarding IPR on draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 16:31:47 -0000 Tm8sIEknbSBub3QgYXdhcmUgb2YgYW55IElQUiB0aGF0IGFwcGxpZXMgdG8gdGhpcyBkcmFmdC4N Cg0KUGFzY2FsDQoNCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBMb3Ug QmVyZ2VyIFttYWlsdG86bGJlcmdlckBsYWJuLm5ldF0NCj4gU2VudDogamV1ZGkgMTcgbWFycyAy MDE2IDE3OjIzDQo+IFRvOiBOb3JtYW4gRmlubiAobmZpbm4pIDxuZmlubkBjaXNjby5jb20+OyBQ YXNjYWwgVGh1YmVydCAocHRodWJlcnQpDQo+IDxwdGh1YmVydEBjaXNjby5jb20+DQo+IENjOiBE ZXROZXQgV0cgPGRldG5ldEBpZXRmLm9yZz47IERldE5ldCBDaGFpcnMgPGRldG5ldC1jaGFpcnNA aWV0Zi5vcmc+DQo+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJlZ2FyZGluZyBJUFIgb24gZHJhZnQtZmlubi1kZXRuZXQt cHJvYmxlbS1zdGF0ZW1lbnQNCj4gDQo+IEF1dGhvcnMsIENvbnRyaWJ1dG9ycywgV0csDQo+IA0K PiBBcyBwYXJ0IG9mIHRoZSBwcmVwYXJhdGlvbiBmb3IgV0cgQWRvcHRpb24NCj4gDQo+IEFyZSB5 b3UgYXdhcmUgb2YgYW55IElQUiB0aGF0IGFwcGxpZXMgdG8gZHJhZnRzIGlkZW50aWZpZWQgYWJv dmU/DQo+IA0KPiBQbGVhc2Ugc3RhdGUgZWl0aGVyOg0KPiANCj4gIk5vLCBJJ20gbm90IGF3YXJl IG9mIGFueSBJUFIgdGhhdCBhcHBsaWVzIHRvIHRoaXMgZHJhZnQiDQo+IG9yDQo+ICJZZXMsIEkn bSBhd2FyZSBvZiBJUFIgdGhhdCBhcHBsaWVzIHRvIHRoaXMgZHJhZnQiDQo+IA0KPiBJZiBzbywg aGFzIHRoaXMgSVBSIGJlZW4gZGlzY2xvc2VkIGluIGNvbXBsaWFuY2Ugd2l0aCBJRVRGIElQUiBy dWxlcyAoc2VlIFJGQ3MNCj4gMzk3OSwgNDg3OSwgMzY2OSBhbmQgNTM3OCBmb3IgbW9yZSBkZXRh aWxzKT8NCj4gDQo+IElmIHllcyB0byB0aGUgYWJvdmUsIHBsZWFzZSBzdGF0ZSBlaXRoZXI6DQo+ IA0KPiAiWWVzLCB0aGUgSVBSIGhhcyBiZWVuIGRpc2Nsb3NlZCBpbiBjb21wbGlhbmNlIHdpdGgg SUVURiBJUFIgcnVsZXMiDQo+IG9yDQo+ICJObywgdGhlIElQUiBoYXMgbm90IGJlZW4gZGlzY2xv c2VkIg0KPiANCj4gSWYgeW91IGFuc3dlciBubywgcGxlYXNlIHByb3ZpZGUgYW55IGFkZGl0aW9u YWwgZGV0YWlscyB5b3UgdGhpbmsNCj4gYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUuDQo+IA0KPiBJZiB5b3UgYXJlIGxp c3RlZCBhcyBhIGRvY3VtZW50IGF1dGhvciBvciBjb250cmlidXRvciBwbGVhc2UgYW5zd2VyIHRo ZQ0KPiBhYm92ZSBieSByZXNwb25kaW5nIHRvIHRoaXMgZW1haWwgcmVnYXJkbGVzcyBvZiB3aGV0 aGVyIG9yIG5vdCB5b3UgYXJlDQo+IGF3YXJlIG9mIGFueSByZWxldmFudCBJUFIuIFRoaXMgZG9j dW1lbnQgd2lsbCBub3QgYWR2YW5jZSB0byB0aGUgbmV4dCBzdGFnZQ0KPiB1bnRpbCBhIHJlc3Bv bnNlIGhhcyBiZWVuIHJlY2VpdmVkIGZyb20gZWFjaCBhdXRob3IgYW5kIGxpc3RlZCBjb250cmli dXRvci4NCj4gTk9URTogVEhJUyBBUFBMSUVTIFRPIEFMTCBPRiBZT1UgTElTVEVEIElOIFRISVMg TUVTU0FHRSdTIFRPIExJTkVTLg0KPiANCj4gSWYgeW91IGFyZSBvbiB0aGUgV0cgZW1haWwgbGlz dCBvciBhdHRlbmQgV0cgbWVldGluZ3MgYnV0IGFyZSBub3QgbGlzdGVkIGFzDQo+IGFuIGF1dGhv ciBvciBjb250cmlidXRvciwgd2UgcmVtaW5kIHlvdSBvZiB5b3VyIG9ibGlnYXRpb25zIHVuZGVy IHRoZSBJRVRGDQo+IElQUiBydWxlcyB3aGljaCBlbmNvdXJhZ2VzIHlvdSB0byBub3RpZnkgdGhl IElFVEYgaWYgeW91IGFyZSBhd2FyZSBvZiBJUFIgb2YNCj4gb3RoZXJzIG9uIGFuIElFVEYgY29u dHJpYnV0aW9uLCBvciB0byByZWZyYWluIGZyb20gcGFydGljaXBhdGluZyBpbiBhbnkNCj4gY29u dHJpYnV0aW9uIG9yIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gcmVsYXRlZCB0byB5b3VyIHVuZGlzY2xvc2VkIElQUi4g Rm9yIG1vcmUNCj4gaW5mb3JtYXRpb24sIHBsZWFzZSBzZWUgdGhlIFJGQ3MgbGlzdGVkIGFib3Zl IGFuZA0KPiBodHRwOi8vdHJhYy50b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9ncm91cC9pZXNnL3RyYWMvd2lraS9J bnRlbGxlY3R1YWxQcm9wZXJ0eS4NCj4gDQo+IFRoYW5rIHlvdSwNCj4gRGV0TmV0IFdHIENoYWly cw0KPiANCj4gUFMgUGxlYXNlIGluY2x1ZGUgYWxsIGxpc3RlZCBpbiB0aGUgaGVhZGVycyBvZiB0 aGlzIG1lc3NhZ2UgaW4geW91ciByZXNwb25zZS4NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiANCg0K From nobody Thu Mar 17 14:01:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0EC412D66A for ; 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(amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GPHAE9qk00gc; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 14:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91E1C12D522; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 14:02:22 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79c06d000005960-2a-56eb1b5c1131 Received: from ESESSHC010.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.48]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 93.9B.22880.C5B1BE65; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 22:02:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB103.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.8]) by ESESSHC010.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.48]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 22:01:55 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Varga_A?= To: Lou Berger , "Norman Finn (nfinn)" , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Regarding IPR on draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement Thread-Index: AQHRgGlSkt/oHwKO+02IsNV0uet/gZ9eH4Jw Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 21:01:55 +0000 Message-ID: <3002A87EA61E0A4DB56546AC16A0D5171EF3CF09@ESESSMB103.ericsson.se> References: <56EAD9CD.90809@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <56EAD9CD.90809@labn.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprBIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7gW6s9Oswg0NxFtf6f7BY/P40m8Wi o/kti8X7XlOLGVPeMTqwekz5vZHVY8mSn0weHzY1swUwR3HZpKTmZJalFunbJXBlvOncxlzw Q6BiwoFm5gbGy7xdjJwcEgImEr9fH2OEsMUkLtxbz9bFyMUhJHCYUaKhfRYzSEJIYBGjxOwL NiA2m4CrxOeOh2wgtohAnUTrmx4mEJtZwF2i4/ImsHphAS+JM11L2bsYOYBqvCX+PCuFMI0k Pj+MA6lgEVCV+HC8lRXE5hXwlfj0qZ8dYpOqxNbNj8CmcwqoSXzdC1HDCHTa91NroDaJS9x6 Mp8J4mQBiSV7zjND2KISLx//Y4WwlSRWbL/ECFGvJ3Fj6hQ2CFtbYtnC18wQewUlTs58wjKB UWwWkrGzkLTMQtIyC0nLAkaWVYyixanFxbnpRsZ6qUWZycXF+Xl6eaklmxiB8XVwy2/dHYyr XzseYhTgYFTi4S14+jJMiDWxrLgy9xCjBAezkghvpPjrMCHelMTKqtSi/Pii0pzU4kOM0hws SuK8bJ8uhwkJpCeWpGanphakFsFkmTg4pRoYm3fF38hOfPla8Yy29YHER6yTEiZ4yps+viF/ KLHnwDPGr1KrxcL9fnjEOHSWRD1wnlpoNdOWoyBPQj1z2efp198I1eZx3eC1fHxa14Hxf1XK 0ssHZL9K/FtQvSJdYKt85f7EmE+Opts2VtlIV382ffHztMr6QzHtTX+y7s8+NOdS+gnDkMBc JZbijERDLeai4kQA8DpjbqsCAAA= Archived-At: Cc: DetNet WG , DetNet Chairs Subject: Re: [Detnet] Regarding IPR on draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 21:02:29 -0000 No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft. Bala'zs -----Original Message----- From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:23 PM To: Norman Finn (nfinn); Pascal Thubert (pthubert) Cc: DetNet WG; DetNet Chairs Subject: [Detnet] Regarding IPR on draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement Authors, Contributors, WG, As part of the preparation for WG Adoption Are you aware of any IPR that applies to drafts identified above? Please state either: "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" or "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see R= FCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)? If yes to the above, please state either: "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" or "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think appropria= te. If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the abo= ve by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are aware o= f any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next stage until = a response has been received from each author and listed contributor. NOTE:= THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO LINES. If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed as= an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF= IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR = of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any = contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR. For more inform= ation, please see the RFCs listed above and http://trac.tools.ietf.org/grou= p/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. Thank you, DetNet WG Chairs PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your respons= e. _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Thu Mar 17 14:55:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9C4012DC4E for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 14:55:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iqchI1dZim8n for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 14:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E267412DCF7 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 14:55:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=11774; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1458251726; x=1459461326; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=XYw4QHKpgH02YD1ZzgJz9Z5QKMuRXuQ9ytrQuYCYUUM=; b=LVTOzkRkVDEOXAqByAbVYpXX5Ia8BZKFmL8093sU7fEz2/p1achRJj/+ Xd5rEr2i92RLQ6bnOuRqFrHVqT7HRAwkvpVZahJDzdnxgfOP4DfLwn5Il SEbdq7cTBvPhdIq6k2ebwK2uKaOs3ySCyIxsa105uIxdXkXK5ksRVaWeP I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ArBQATJ+tW/4kNJK1eg0VTbga6D4FvF?= =?us-ascii?q?wqFIkoCHIEfORMBAQEBAQEBZCeEQQEBAQQBAQEgEToXBAIBCBEBAgEBAQECAiY?= =?us-ascii?q?CAgIlCxUCBggCBAESCIgfDrF2j1YBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQERBHyFI?= =?us-ascii?q?oNFf4c8gToFh2KPL0MBjXmBbIdwhTGGDYh1ASEBQINlaollfgEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,351,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="87556715" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 17 Mar 2016 21:55:24 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com (xch-rcd-020.cisco.com [173.37.102.30]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2HLtO8H021384 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 17 Mar 2016 21:55:24 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 16:55:23 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 16:55:23 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" , Lou Berger , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? Thread-Index: AQHRelt3Kp5oBujhO0u0WMJUTyyHop9baiGAgAJnnACAAAZ8AIAAYYXQ Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 21:54:59 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 21:54:46 +0000 Message-ID: <08d48c7ee5f445ccab4e5ae2f30cc752@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <56E88507.80508@labn.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.85.193] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 21:55:34 -0000 SSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIExvdToNCg0KVGhlIFVOSSBpcyBjb250cm9sIHBsYW5lLiBUaGUgdHJvdWJs ZSBJIGhhZCBoZXJlIGlzIHRoYXQgaXMgaXQgYW4gZXhjaGFuZ2UgYmV0d2VlbiB0aGUgbmV0d29y ayBub2RlIGFuZCB0aGUgZW5kIHN5c3RlbSwgbm90IG92ZXIgdGhlIHNvdXRoYmFuZCBpbnRlcmZh Y2UgbGlrZSB0aGUgZmxvdyBzZXR1cC4gSG93IHNob3VsZCBiZSBjaGFyYWN0ZXJpemUgdGhpcz8N Cg0KQ2hlZXJzLA0KDQpQYXNjYWwNCg0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+ IEZyb206IE5vcm1hbiBGaW5uIChuZmlubikNCj4gU2VudDogamV1ZGkgMTcgbWFycyAyMDE2IDA0 OjAzDQo+IFRvOiBMb3UgQmVyZ2VyIDxsYmVyZ2VyQGxhYm4ubmV0PjsgZGV0bmV0QGlldGYub3Jn DQo+IENjOiBQYXNjYWwgVGh1YmVydCAocHRodWJlcnQpIDxwdGh1YmVydEBjaXNjby5jb20+DQo+ IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbRGV0bmV0XSBkcmFmdC1maW5uLWRldG5ldC1hcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUtMDMg 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detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCF5C12D677 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 02:06:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JvrhQugMEUnt for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 02:06:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D257A12DA2A for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 02:06:08 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Thread-Index: AQHRf/3wDjOGF+42/0ml6rbgHyTzdZ9ex5tw Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 09:05:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.61.15.96] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020201.56EBC4FF.000A, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.26, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: f3a69b362b082b99b9e3336269d33f12 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 09:06:15 -0000 VGhhbmsgeW91IGZvciB0aGUgY2xhcmlmaWNhdGlvbi4gUGxlYXNlIGZpbmQgbXkgcmVzcG9uc2Vz IGluLWxpbmUgd2l0aCBbenl5XS4NCg0KUmVnYXJkcywNCllpeW9uZw0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFs IE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogTm9ybWFuIEZpbm4gKG5maW5uKSBbbWFpbHRvOm5maW5uQGNp c2NvLmNvbV0gDQpTZW50OiBUaHVyc2RheSwgTWFyY2ggMTcsIDIwMTYgMTE6MzUgQU0NClRvOiB6 aGF5aXlvbmc7IGRldG5ldEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtEZXRuZXRdIGRyYWZ0LWZp bm4tZGV0bmV0LWFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS0wMyBjb21tZW50cz8/DQoNClRoYW5rcyBmb3IgdGhlIHJl dmlldyEgIFJlc3BvbnNlcyBpbi1saW5lLg0KDQrigJQgTm9ybQ0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1l c3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogZGV0bmV0IDxkZXRuZXQtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZz4gb24gYmVo YWxmIG9mIHpoYXlpeW9uZyA8emhheWl5b25nQGh1YXdlaS5jb20+DQpEYXRlOiBXZWRuZXNkYXks 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-0400 From: "Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)" To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? Thread-Index: AQHRgRnpjmGomjH25kW2r+ECS54gVw== Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 13:27:25 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.1.160122 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.49.80.23] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <1B8E4537536A6A43B1EF0CB88F37C953@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 13:27:31 -0000 Hi Norm, In the clause 4.2.3 The Network Plane The last paragraph says: "At the Network plane, relay systems exchange information regarding the state of the paths, between adjacent systems and eventually with the end systems, and=8A=B2 In a fully centralized configuration, the relay systems are not obliged to exchange information between them or with the end systems. This could be handled by information exchange with the PCE. So I will introduce a =B3may= =B2 in the sentence: "At the Network plane, relay systems may exchange information regarding the state of the paths, between adjacent systems and eventually with the end systems, and=8A=B2 Do you agree? Thanks, Patrick On 10/03/16 00:29, "detnet on behalf of Norman Finn (nfinn)" wrote: >In our plan from November, we talked about adopting an architecture draft. >There is a draft for one, and time comment and revise it before the >deadline for April. Is it so good there is nothing more to say? :) :) > >https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03.txt > > >=8B Norm > >_______________________________________________ >detnet mailing list >detnet@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Fri Mar 18 06:54:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 483F012D922 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 06:54:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kzxFvw42QKSD for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 06:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6D0012D5EA for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 06:48:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2542; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1458308912; x=1459518512; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=n/OvFasd5vJ9GqrncDERf+Z4xmwn/2ZsBIOoykw/3m8=; b=B2WFAnpir3nbYpVPy9Kcyr99Y3a1o9Ry9bCVhBKkstW/zTgoMfWHj3QR hCCNdNzvLV89a/e8mP+oh5We1GMBCGmq8lJAxXi62Q47molc1d8ohkvlk jl3plewll0+TkN9YOj4OGBzLPYR/dM2tVnk9hctYx4bKqUZNXEvyq2QJq E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AFAgCkBuxW/4MNJK1eg0VTcga6FQENg?= =?us-ascii?q?W8XCoUiSgKBLTgUAQEBAQEBAWQnhEEBAQEEAQEBaxcEAgEIEQEDAQEBJwcnCxQ?= =?us-ascii?q?DBggCBAESCIgfDsFAAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBEQSGHoREihIFl1cBj?= =?us-ascii?q?XyPDo8FAR4BAUKDZWqJZX4BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,355,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="82403994" Received: from alln-core-1.cisco.com ([173.36.13.131]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 18 Mar 2016 13:48:31 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-013.cisco.com (xch-aln-013.cisco.com [173.36.7.23]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2IDmVTB009911 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 13:48:31 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-013.cisco.com (173.36.7.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 08:48:31 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 08:48:31 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)" , "Norman Finn (nfinn)" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? Thread-Index: AQHRgRnpKp5oBujhO0u0WMJUTyyHop9fNbkw Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 13:48:13 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 13:47:21 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.5] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1257" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 13:54:11 -0000 I'm probably guilty of that piece text and agree with the "may", Patrick. There are tons of ways this happens even in a centrally controlled network.= =20 Dome are control plane, really, like UNI (Local management interface) type. Others are part of the lower layers, like acks/nacks. Then there's all the variations of OAM.=20 What's confusing in this text that we need to improve (that's actually a co= mment Lou made) Is not to call network layer what control layer happening b= etween the network nodes. Yet we need to differentiate that from the contro= l from the control (southbound) interface with the central controller. Cheers, Pascal > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Patrick > Wetterwald (pwetterw) > Sent: vendredi 18 mars 2016 14:27 > To: Norman Finn (nfinn) ; detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? >=20 > Hi Norm, >=20 > In the clause 4.2.3 The Network Plane >=20 > The last paragraph says: > "At the Network plane, relay systems exchange information regarding > the state of the paths, between adjacent systems and eventually with > the end systems, and=D0=B2 >=20 > In a fully centralized configuration, the relay systems are not obliged t= o > exchange information between them or with the end systems. This could be > handled by information exchange with the PCE. So I will introduce a =B3ma= y=B2 in > the sentence: >=20 > "At the Network plane, relay systems may exchange information regarding > the state of the paths, between adjacent systems and eventually with t= he > end systems, and=D0=B2 >=20 > Do you agree? >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Patrick >=20 >=20 > On 10/03/16 00:29, "detnet on behalf of Norman Finn (nfinn)" > wrote: >=20 > >In our plan from November, we talked about adopting an architecture > draft. > >There is a draft for one, and time comment and revise it before the > >deadline for April. Is it so good there is nothing more to say? :) > >:) > > > >https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03. > >txt > > > > > >=8B Norm > > > >_______________________________________________ > >detnet mailing list > >detnet@ietf.org > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >=20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Fri Mar 18 13:51:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E563C12D68A for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 13:51:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sH-nCoH3LjyJ for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 13:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9DEA012D67E for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 13:51:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=51670; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1458334312; x=1459543912; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=tAa+RXin+pDC/5iv7LE7GqUWKXoRf/1VuCw4uyJGSdA=; b=Fc9EQWcqMY10k0KA9XlnEPAWh97i6p2pwjRK+aG2zLMD3TpGjqYnBP9c wR7CkBUrnd++LoGQ1AA6kleQ8eTLHWCTNJYdDzK3cmn9jQ4K5o91QEBj2 fyfEIbE9Aha/jLreY5blxRjM5X/K2Hg+14IC+Pj3yh6FCMiOI5S3aZIjP I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AJAgC4aexW/49dJa1egnhMU3IGuhgBD?= =?us-ascii?q?YFsAxcBC4UgSgIcgRU4FAEBAQEBAQFkJ4RBAQEBBAEBARcJCkEXBAIBCBEBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BASEBBgMCAgIlCxQDBggCBAESiCcOsTWPNAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?REEhh6ERIQKSAoNCYJKglYFh12HD4QYhFMBiGKFIY8HjwUBHgEBQoIDGYFJagG?= =?us-ascii?q?JJz1+AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.24,356,1454976000"; d="scan'208,217"; a="87920168" Received: from rcdn-core-7.cisco.com ([173.37.93.143]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 18 Mar 2016 20:51:50 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-020.cisco.com (xch-aln-020.cisco.com [173.36.7.30]) by rcdn-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2IKpoHG009931 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 18 Mar 2016 20:51:50 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-018.cisco.com (173.37.102.28) by XCH-ALN-020.cisco.com (173.36.7.30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 15:51:50 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-018.cisco.com ([173.37.102.28]) by XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com ([173.37.102.28]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 15:51:49 -0500 From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" To: =?utf-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBWYXJnYSBB?= , DetNet WG Thread-Topic: draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? Thread-Index: AQHRelt3Kp5oBujhO0u0WMJUTyyHop9eKP9ggAB1RQA= Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 20:51:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3002A87EA61E0A4DB56546AC16A0D5171EF3CEF7@ESESSMB103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <3002A87EA61E0A4DB56546AC16A0D5171EF3CEF7@ESESSMB103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.1.160122 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.33.169] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D3117AF64A3A2nfinnciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 20:51:56 -0000 --_000_D3117AF64A3A2nfinnciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 U29tZSB0aG91Z2h0IHByb3Zva2luZyBjb21tZW50cywgQmFsw6F6czsgdGhleeKAmWxsIGltcHJv dmUgdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50LiAgRGV0YWlsZWQgcmVzcG9uc2VzIGluLWxpbmUuDQoNCuKAlCBOb3Jt DQoNCkZyb206IEJhbMOhenMgVmFyZ2EgQSA8YmFsYXpzLmEudmFyZ2FAZXJpY3Nzb24uY29tPG1h aWx0bzpiYWxhenMuYS52YXJnYUBlcmljc3Nvbi5jb20+Pg0KRGF0ZTogRnJpZGF5LCBNYXJjaCAx OCwgMjAxNiBhdCAwNTowMSBBTQ0KVG86IE5vcm1hbiBGaW5uIDxuZmlubkBjaXNjby5jb208bWFp bHRvOm5maW5uQGNpc2NvLmNvbT4+LCBEZXROZXQgV0cgPGRldG5ldEBpZXRmLm9yZzxtYWlsdG86 ZGV0bmV0QGlldGYub3JnPj4NClN1YmplY3Q6IFJFOiBkcmFmdC1maW5uLWRldG5ldC1hcmNoaXRl Y3R1cmUtMDMgY29tbWVudHM/Pw0KDQoNCkhpIE5vcm0sDQoNCg0KDQpzb21lIGNvbW1lbnRzL3F1 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XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com ([173.37.102.28]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 15:51:54 -0500 From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" To: Lou Berger , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Thread-Topic: Regarding IPR on draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement Thread-Index: AQHRgGlARoi0F2dnL0O801eNNPCWsZ9ekjAA Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 20:51:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <56EAD9CD.90809@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <56EAD9CD.90809@labn.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.1.160122 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.33.169] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <9F45CC41D5519446B072EB692A8E36FA@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: DetNet WG , DetNet Chairs Subject: Re: [Detnet] Regarding IPR on draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 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biB5b3VyDQo+cmVzcG9uc2UuDQo+DQo+DQo+DQoNCg== From nobody Fri Mar 18 14:06:05 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 812C112D6BE for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 14:06:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mail-udp-cl.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2OPW8clkL8cV for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 14:06:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22f.google.com (mail-wm0-x22f.google.com 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d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=OxqhVmBxAL4W7fbDvlQn1H4lPdVV4Anfrm1Ac3E45N4=; b=d2e3ev/jRXBZnroNMMHW92obupe46lvSxPTVCOyvvx5/gfGGhTB4Wisjw0bjaBXwfn CpOHUhiSqNlX/oY0Ieu6SEUl4P27wX2xdNrFhvi8pSX6eiJmPrGIDqBfyfX8MeclsxTo lpLpxeR8PgMp8o7b8mLx9XJbDXrL1+x0WtOHEl5wPiuSWRhKBRBWif8MIZUhUPRnAdfX dfQysA2b+q+zy+nW5865INy2RApG7B+JwptjbUAhWZOsKd++sXmufDW9EK/ShcO5vlWG KWzkzuljWlmYw/Rb+yyyA0kXfYPCOF6Xb+zBISjGbE6nwOtjTTJMNap0g5gUa+ADR3uj 5Pjw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJJwebQjgwUC8VEk2nSA1FwOw7Xd6kjltnM2em8iBLUw/66vYILf54zv3JDnKW1umFMb019RoXcX+ua4w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.103.198 with SMTP id fy6mr20463247wjb.48.1458335159434; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 14:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.28.11.195 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 14:05:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <56EAD9CD.90809@labn.net> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 18:05:59 -0300 Message-ID: From: "Prof. Diego Dujovne" To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f64733f244e5e052e591db3 Archived-At: Cc: DetNet WG , "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" , Lou Berger , DetNet Chairs Subject: Re: [Detnet] Regarding IPR on draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 21:06:04 -0000 --e89a8f64733f244e5e052e591db3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft Diego 2016-03-18 17:51 GMT-03:00 Norman Finn (nfinn) : > No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft > > > =E2=80=94 Norm > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lou Berger > Date: Friday, March 18, 2016 at 00:22 AM > To: Norman Finn , Pascal Thubert > Cc: DetNet WG , DetNet Chairs > Subject: Regarding IPR on draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement > > >Authors, Contributors, WG, > > > >As part of the preparation for WG Adoption > > > >Are you aware of any IPR that applies to drafts identified above? > > > >Please state either: > > > >"No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" > >or > >"Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" > > > >If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules > >(see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)? > > > >If yes to the above, please state either: > > > >"Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" > >or > >"No, the IPR has not been disclosed" > > > >If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think > >appropriate. > > > >If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the > >above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are > >aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next > >stage until a response has been received from each author and listed > >contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S > >TO LINES. > > > >If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed > >as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under > >the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are > >aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from > >participating in any contribution or discussion related to your > >undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above > >and > >http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. > > > >Thank you, > >DetNet WG Chairs > > > >PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your > >response. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --=20 DIEGO DUJOVNE Acad=C3=A9mico Escuela de Ingenier=C3=ADa en Inform=C3=A1tica y Telecomunic= aciones Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa UDP www.ingenieria.udp.cl (56 2) 676 8125 --e89a8f64733f244e5e052e591db3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No, I'm not aware of any IPR t= hat applies to this draft

Diego
<= /span>

2016-= 03-18 17:51 GMT-03:00 Norman Finn (nfinn) <nfinn@cisco.com>:
No, I'm not aware of = any IPR that applies to this draft


=E2=80=94 Norm

-----Original Message-----
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Date: Friday, March 18, 2016 at 00:22 AM
To: Norman Finn <nfinn@cisco.com&= gt;, Pascal Thubert <pthubert@cisc= o.com>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>= ;, DetNet Chairs <detnet-chair= s@ietf.org>
Subject: Regarding IPR on draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement

>Authors, Contributors, W= G,
>
>As part of the preparation for WG Adoption
>
>Are you aware of any IPR that applies to drafts identified above?
>
>Please state either:
>
>"No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft"=
>or
>"Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"
>
>If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules >(see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)?
>
>If yes to the above, please state either:
>
>"Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules= "
>or
>"No, the IPR has not been disclosed"
>
>If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
>appropriate.
>
>If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the=
>above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are<= br> >aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next >stage until a response has been received from each author and listed >contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE= 9;S
>TO LINES.
>
>If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not liste= d
>as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under >the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are >aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from
>participating in any contribution or discussion related to your
>undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above=
>and
>http://trac.tools.ietf.org/g= roup/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.
>
>Thank you,
>DetNet WG Chairs
>
>PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your
>response.
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet



--
DIEGO DUJOVNE
Acad=C3=A9mico Escuela de Ingenier=C3= =ADa en Inform=C3=A1tica y Telecomunicaciones
Facultad de Ingenier=C3=AD= a UDP
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--e89a8f64733f244e5e052e591db3-- From nobody Fri Mar 18 16:17:03 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B4E012D64F for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 16:17:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jpW0hoYrRyfx for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 16:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [67.222.33.93]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2367212D55D for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 16:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 8049 invoked by uid 0); 18 Mar 2016 23:16:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO CMOut01) (10.0.90.82) by gproxy8.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 18 Mar 2016 23:16:56 -0000 Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by CMOut01 with id XbGs1s0052SSUrH01bGvmJ; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 17:16:55 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=G/WPTbU5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=-NfooI8aBGcA:10 a=uEJ9t1CZtbIA:10 a=7OsogOcEt9IA:10 a=MdsFZDV59kC5RRAzWZIA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=qgAOV5mjtkMA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:Subject:From:Cc:To; bh=+qqAiHNn4PCO6jJM7HG7LB6dteluyEtusSGs5Y1cfGg=; b=PeC2B5pacIYfMVHdeZJnhKGIr/ nEePQ9j9MudXsgNumW9HHaU/ip+plDHjkpGf/p/RyDcqnbftelHMgEmY61NwpOt7uR8Wv9T5x4XAH 3JBRKICuSQDXDmEBUjEzn71w+; Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]:34519 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ah3dV-0007Kc-7C; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 17:16:53 -0600 To: DetNet WG From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <56EC8C60.8060308@labn.net> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 19:16:48 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: Cc: DetNet Chairs Subject: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 23:17:02 -0000 All, This is start of a two week poll on making draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement-05 a working group document. Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. The poll ends April 1, 2016 Thanks, Lou and Pat From nobody Sun Mar 20 11:38:16 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D36012D571 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2016 11:38:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.491 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.491 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HldKxSq9QMoE for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2016 11:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F7EA12D543 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2016 11:38:10 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-f79d86d000005b69-56-56eeee105ece Received: from ESESSHC022.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.84]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id C9.83.23401.01EEEE65; Sun, 20 Mar 2016 19:38:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB103.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.157]) by ESESSHC022.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.84]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Sun, 20 Mar 2016 19:38:08 +0100 From: =?utf-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBWYXJnYSBB?= To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" , DetNet WG Thread-Topic: draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? Thread-Index: AQHRelt3Kp5oBujhO0u0WMJUTyyHop9eKP9ggAB1RQCAA5CWEA== Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 18:38:07 +0000 Message-ID: <3002A87EA61E0A4DB56546AC16A0D5171EF4808C@ESESSMB103.ericsson.se> References: <3002A87EA61E0A4DB56546AC16A0D5171EF3CEF7@ESESSMB103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.154] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3002A87EA61E0A4DB56546AC16A0D5171EF4808CESESSMB103erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprKIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7iK7Au3dhBre6FCx+f5rNYvG+19SB yWPK742sHkuW/GQKYIrisklJzcksSy3St0vgyvjxv5O14MpPlooTnd/ZGhgXvGTpYuTkkBAw kbgxp5UJwhaTuHBvPVsXIxeHkMBhRolVu8+yQDhLGCV2d0xmBaliE3CR2LFpDpgtIuAhcf/y FLBJwgKWEjOvHWOEiFtJvHwxF6rGSWLlrGdsIDaLgKrEqvMfwOp5BXwlPn66CrVgMqPExe5m oCIODk4BXYkzz2RAahiBLvp+ag3YdcwC4hK3nsyHulRAYsme88wQtqjEy8f/WCFsJYlFtz9D 1edL9OxtY4LYJShxcuYTlgmMIrOQjJqFpGwWkrJZQFcwC2hKrN+lD1GiKDGl+yE7hK0h0Tpn Ljuy+AJG9lWMosWpxcW56UZGeqlFmcnFxfl5enmpJZsYgZF1cMtvqx2MB587HmIU4GBU4uE1 EHoXJsSaWFZcmXuIUYKDWUmEt2AjUIg3JbGyKrUoP76oNCe1+BCjNAeLkjgv26fLYUIC6Ykl qdmpqQWpRTBZJg5OqQZGyWP2IgHfDi7UWpj829ltfV9l/8ZQKxOFK5P4IiVMmUXOTjp6NZHB PPbOSn2m5ZomaTuWTXu/4un+jD0NnZWsdnvMT56Z/eDJ3pfZF5rVm/7wSGbeiFn7gO1SDCfv x4e5rH8UAid1Mm4+baOwcNK1x3NvSExacXBbyum1R37fEjo3M3npqeyAOCWW4oxEQy3mouJE AM54oPKoAgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 18:38:15 -0000 --_000_3002A87EA61E0A4DB56546AC16A0D5171EF4808CESESSMB103erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgTm9ybSwNCg0KTWFueSB0aGFua3MgZm9yIHRoZSBkZXRhaWxlZCBleHBsYW5hdGlvbnMuIE5v dyBJIHNlZSB5b3VyIHBvaW50cyBtdWNoIGJldHRlci4gU29tZSBmdXJ0aGVyIHRob3VnaHRzIG9u IHBhY2tldCBsb3NzIGFyZSBiZWxvdy4NCllvdXIgZmVlZGJhY2svcHJvcG9zZWQgcmVzb2x1dGlv biByZWdhcmRpbmcgYWxsIG90aGVyIGNvbW1lbnRzIGFyZSBmaW5lIHdpdGggbWUuDQoNClJlZ2Fy ZGluZyB0aGUgcGFja2V0IGxvc3MgSSBzZWUgdHdvIHRoaW5ncyB3ZSBtYXkgaGF2ZSB0byBmaXgg ZGlmZmVyZW50bHk6DQoxLCBHZW5lcmFsIGRlZmluaXRpb24gb2YgU0xBIHBhcmFtZXRlcnMgZm9y IERldE5ldCAtLT4gZHJhZnQtdXNlLWNhc2U/DQpUaGlzIGlzIGEgbW9yZSBnZW5lcmFsIChhbmQg 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SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 02:01:38 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 02:01:39 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? Thread-Index: AQHRgz+DKjgjD1gtVki0ZXX3KAJWBg== Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 07:01:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3002A87EA61E0A4DB56546AC16A0D5171EF3CEF7@ESESSMB103.ericsson.se>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BCCFE841107E47A5954A7BEB2220A7B5ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: DetNet WG , =?Windows-1252?Q?Bal=E1zs_Varga_A?= Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 07:01:45 -0000 --_000_BCCFE841107E47A5954A7BEB2220A7B5ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Norm The discussion about 1+1 assumes equilatent streams so that copies a and b = of a packet arrive roughly at the same time. If they are not, one copy mat eventually make it to destination but the end= point will sense a glitch. That will be OK for some transports and less so= for others. I think the tension is really between the services of resilience and in ord= er delivery, the former deriving from 1+1 and the latter from the sequencin= g. I could propose text but it will be short before submission which is cutoff= today. Regards, Pascal Regards, Pascal Le 18 mars 2016 =E0 21:52, Norman Finn (nfinn) > a =E9crit : Some thought provoking comments, Bal=E1zs; they=92ll improve the document. = Detailed responses in-line. =97 Norm From: Bal=E1zs Varga A > Date: Friday, March 18, 2016 at 05:01 AM To: Norman Finn >, DetNet WG > Subject: RE: draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? Hi Norm, some comments/questions for clarification: 1, PACKET LOSS Chapter 3 defines two packet loss term: - Probability of loss of a packet, assuming the normal operation of the relay systems and links; - Probability of loss of a packet in the event of the failure of a relay system or link. I have sympathy with the approach to distinguish the root cause of packet loss, however I think the loss caused by failure is not an appropriate parameter here. Packet loss have to be measured by definition over a "set of packets" what is not easy to define for example in case of re-routing that last for 200msec. Also the DetNet applications may suffer differently from such an outage after a failure. A "Maximum outage time" caused by failure events would be a better parameter. That would also help network designer to decide about the need for seamless redundancy for a DetNet flow. A network tuned for "fast convergence" may require only for some very critical DetNet flow the usage of seamless redundancy. Proposed change: Replace text on second packet loss parameter: "Maximum outage time in the event of the failure of a relay system or link." This gets a bit tricky. In case you=92re not using the =93Packet replicati= on and deletion=94 =3D =93Seamless redundancy=94 =3D =931+1 hitless redunda= ncy=94, which is the usual case of a stream of packets over the Internet (o= r a bridged LAN, for that matter), what you say is dead right, of course. = But if you are using that scheme, the case is a little different. Let me e= xplain the situation, then look at what we can do to fix the document. With the =93Packet replication and deletion=94, you=92re not switched betwe= en streams based on OAM; you=92re receiving every packet, looking at the se= quence information, and passing on the ones you haven=92t seen, possibly ou= t of order because the paths are of different lengths. (Yes, that requires= keeping a history, in the most general case. That=92s another discussion.= ) When using this technique, you=92re going to use pinned paths, so networ= k response time and convergence time after a failure is not a factor. (To = a first approximation. More to come.) Assuming that you are also using re= source reservation to eliminate congestion loss, you have a pretty low prob= ability of loss. Ignoring big failures, it=92s the bit error rate squared.= (!) Of course, on a wired network, the actual total error rate is likely= to be dominated by the failure rate of the branch points, source, and dest= ination, which are not included in the list. If a link fails on one of the paths, there is no convergence time issue, th= ere is no switchover time issue. But, now that one path has failed, the pa= cket loss probability is now the probability of a loss on the second, still= good, path. This is the sense in which =93Probability of loss of a packet= in the event of the failure of a relay system or link=94 seems to me to be= just as valid as the first bullet, although the dependencies are not state= d in the clearest way. (As evidenced by this long explanation.) Connectiv= ity loss time doesn=92t kick in until you talk about the probability of los= s of the branch points, or of two failures, one on each path. Now, we could have three points, restated somewhat: - Probability of loss of a packet, assuming the normal operation of the rel= ay systems and links; - Probability of loss of a packet in the event of a connectivity failure al= ong one path. - Maximum outage time in the event of a connectivity failure involving both= paths. This is a possibility. But, in the scenarios envisioned so far, this gets = us into the question, =93When one path fails, do you wait for it to get fix= ed, or do you try to automatically create a new path?=94 There are many an= swers to this question. Some would like to see ISIS wait a while, then cre= ate a new path. Some (like me) think that the right thing is to let a cent= ral controller and/or human decide whether to create a new 2nd pinned path = based on knowledge of, for example, whether the outage was simply of mater = of the ring being broken, momentarily, to add a new hop. The justification= is that the remaining zero congestion loss path buys you some reaction tim= e. So, let=92s fix the document. Given the above discussion, which has not be= en seen by the reader at this point in the draft, I=92d say the following: (- Minimum and maximum end-to-end latency from source to destination;) - Probability of loss of a packet, assuming the normal operation of the rel= ay systems and links; - Probability of loss of a packet during a connectivity failure along one p= ath, if packet replication and elimination [section 3.3] is employed; - Characteristics of recovery times from path failures. Note the change of wording in the two bullets. I think that this makes the= bullets right. But, given this discussion, I think the right answer is to= start section 3 with just two bullets, max latency and very low packet los= s probability, then explain the mechanism, and only then put the above thre= e bullets. Also, as long as we=92re at it =97 In the paragraph following the 3 bullets= , it talks about maxima, rather than averages. Detent provides worst-case = latency, but packet loss remains probabilistic, not a worst-case thing, so = that discussion needs to be modified, too. 2, SEAMLESS REDUNDANCY (1+N) Chapter 3.3 states names the motivation for seamless redundancy "... causes of packet loss are random media and/or memory faults, and equipment failures.", but describes only link/node failure scenarios. I think adding this sentence to the end of the first paragraph will help: Both causes of packet loss can be greatly reduced by sending the same packe= ts over multiple paths. Text describes only 1+1 protection and Lou has also commented on this " Section 3.3 - This section should reference that "Seamless Redundancy as defined in this section is also known as 1+1 hitless protection." " I have found reference to 1+1 protection misleading. Protection against multiple failures or seamless redundancy motivated by random media faults (e.g., bit errors) may require 1+N protection. Of course 1+N protection may be an issue for high BW DetNet flows, but it would describe the usage of seamless redundancy better. Proposed change: Generalize text/example to describe 1+N seamless redundancy. First of all, I want to get rid of the term =93seamless redundancy=94 excep= t when explicitly talking about IEC 62439-3 HSR. So, let=92s use the term = =93Packet replication and elimination=94 until we have a better term. Secondly, you=92re right about the reference. I=92ve been working on this = section, also. I=92ll keep the reference, if only to contrast 1+1 stream s= witching with selecting individual packets from two streams. And, I=92ll m= ention that it can more than two paths are possible. 3, END SYSTEMS (L2 vs. L3) Chapter 4.2.3. The Network Plane states: "... in the end systems, which are typically IP hosts". I think this is rather use-case specific. IEEE discussions and also the use-case draft list several scenarios, where DetNet end systems are L2 nodes, as the node developer does not wanted to pay the tax of the IP protocol stack implementation and DetNet flow is encapsulated directly in Ethernet frames. I would argue to keep the DetNet scenarios/use-cases/architecture as general as possible and we should be prepared to transport both L2 flows and L3 flows over a DetNet domain. Proposed change: Generalize text in the terminology section: "end system - Commonly called a "host" in IETF documents, and an "end station" is IEEE 802 documents. End systems of interest to this document are either sources or destinations. End systems may be L2 or L3 hosts." Lou made some comments on the end system definition, also; it=92s getting t= oo big. I=92ll add the L2/L3 difference, but in fewer words. Also, we=92l= l say in 4.2.3 that end systems can be L2 or L3. 4, DETNET PROTOCOL STACK I have found the Figure and description in "4.7. Protocol Stack Model" somewhat confusing. 4.A, For the Sequence generation/recovery layer text states "Supplies the sequence number for Seamless Redundancy ...". I think sequence number is not used exclusively for Seamless Redundancy. Seq.number is needed for (i) loss detection, (ii) deal with out-of-order- delivery and (iii) duplicate detection. Therefore even if seamless redundancy is not needed by a DetNet flow (e.g., due to its parameters) transport requires the seq.number. Proposed change: List all motivations for seq.num: "Supplies the sequence number for (i) loss detection, (ii) deal with out-of-order-delivery and (iii) duplicate detection (e.g., for Seamless Redundancy) ..." Lou also commented on this area, because sometimes the sequence number is a= lready there in the transport protocol. Your idea is good. I=92ll combine= them. 4.B, "discards duplicate packets coming up the stack" is stated for both layer "Sequence generation/recovery" and "Individual flow checking". Why is that duplicate discard implemented in two layers? Proposed change: Any clarification ??? A word of explanation is needed in the description of individual flow check= ing. I hesitated to include it at all. Basically, it is a function relate= d to 4.6 fault mitigation; it=92s nice to catch faults as soon as possible = and defend agains misbehaving relay systems before the separate flows come = together. Also, operating on one stream at a time, and then operating on t= he combined pair, is thought by some to improve the reliability. It=92s in= the 802.1 diagrams, today. However, your comment makes me reread the section, and now I think that it = would be better to omit the =93individual=94 layer, and at most, mention th= at the sequence generation/recovery can usefully operate on a single stream= . Thanks & Cheers Bala'zs -----Original Message----- From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Norman Finn (nfi= nn) Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 12:29 AM To: detnet@ietf.org Subject: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? In our plan from November, we talked about adopting an architecture draft. There is a draft for one, and time comment and revise it before the deadlin= e for April. Is it so good there is nothing more to say? :) :) https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03.txt =97 Norm _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet --_000_BCCFE841107E47A5954A7BEB2220A7B5ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Norm

The discussion about 1+1 assumes equilatent streams so that copies= a and b of a packet arrive roughly at the same time.

If they are not, one copy mat eventually make it to destination but th= e end point will sense a glitch. That will be OK for some transports and le= ss so for others.

I think the tension is really between the services of resilience and i= n order delivery, the former deriving from 1+1 and the latter from the = sequencing.

I could propose text but it will be short before submission which is cutoff= today. 

Regards,

Pascal




Regards,

Pascal
Le 18 mars 2016 =E0 21:52, Norman Finn (nfinn) <nfinn@cisco.com> a =E9crit :

Some thought provoking comments, Bal=E1zs; they=92ll improve the document. =  Detailed responses in-line.

=97 Norm

From: Bal=E1zs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>=
Date: Friday, March 18, 2016 at 05:= 01 AM
To: Norman Finn <nfinn@cisco.com>, DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: draft-finn-detnet-arch= itecture-03 comments??

Hi Norm,

 

some comments/questions for clarification:

 

1, PACKET LOSS

Chapter 3 defines two packet loss term:

- Probability of loss of a packet, assuming the n= ormal operation of

the relay systems and links;

- Probability of loss of a packet in the event of= the failure of a

relay system or link.

 

I have sympathy with the approach to distinguish = the root cause of

packet loss, however I think the loss caused by f= ailure is not an

appropriate parameter here. Packet loss have to b= e measured by

definition over a "set of packets" what= is not easy to define for

example in case of re-routing that last for 200ms= ec. Also the DetNet

applications may suffer differently from such an = outage after a

failure. A "Maximum outage time" caused= by failure events would be a

better parameter. That would also help network de= signer to decide

about the need for seamless redundancy for a DetN= et flow. A network

tuned for "fast convergence" may requir= e only for some very critical

DetNet flow the usage of seamless redundancy.

 

Proposed change:

Replace text on second packet loss parameter: = "Maximum outage time in

the event of the failure of a relay system or = link." 

This gets a bit tricky.  In case you=92re not using the =93Packet repl= ication and deletion=94 =3D =93Seamless redundancy=94 =3D =931+1 hitles= s redundancy=94, which is the usual case of a stream of packets over the In= ternet (or a bridged LAN, for that matter), what you say is dead right, of course.  But if you are using that scheme, the case is= a little different.  Let me explain the situation, then look at what = we can do to fix the document.

With the =93Packet replication and deletion=94, you=92re not switched betwe= en streams based on OAM; you=92re receiving every packet, looking at the se= quence information, and passing on the ones you haven=92t seen, possibly ou= t of order because the paths are of different lengths.  (Yes, that requires keeping a history, in the most general = case.  That=92s another discussion.)  When using this technique, = you=92re going to use pinned paths, so network response time and convergenc= e time after a failure is not a factor.  (To a first approximation.  More to come.)  Assuming that you are also using= resource reservation to eliminate congestion loss, you have a pretty low p= robability of loss.  Ignoring big failures, it=92s the bit error rate = squared.  (!)  Of course, on a wired network, the actual total error rate is likely to be dominated by the failure rate of t= he branch points, source, and destination, which are not included in the li= st.

If a link fails on one of the paths, there is no convergence time issue, th= ere is no switchover time issue.  But, now that one path has failed, t= he packet loss probability is now the probability of a loss on the second, = still good, path.  This is the sense in which =93Probability of loss of a packet in the event of the failure of= a relay system or link=94 seems to me to be just as valid as the firs= t bullet, although the dependencies are not stated in the clearest way. &nb= sp;(As evidenced by this long explanation.)  Connectivity loss time doesn=92t kick in until you talk about the probability of loss o= f the branch points, or of two failures, one on each path.

Now, we could have three points, restated somewhat:

- Probability of loss of a packet, assuming the normal operation of th= e relay systems and links;
- Probability of loss of a packet in the event of a connectivity failu= re along one path.
- Maximum outage time in the event of a connectivity failure invo= lving both paths.

This is a possibility.  But, in the scenarios envisioned so far, this = gets us into the question, =93When one path fails, do you wait for it to ge= t fixed, or do you try to automatically create a new path?=94  There a= re many answers to this question.  Some would like to see ISIS wait a while, then create a new path.  Some (like me= ) think that the right thing is to let a central controller and/or human de= cide whether to create a new 2nd pinned path based on knowledge of, for exa= mple, whether the outage was simply of mater of the ring being broken, momentarily, to add a new hop.  The j= ustification is that the remaining zero congestion loss path buys you some = reaction time.

So, let=92s fix the document.  Given the above discussion, which has n= ot been seen by the reader at this point in the draft, I=92d say the follow= ing:

(-= =  Minimum and maximum end-to-= end latency from source to destination;)
- Probability of loss of a packet, assuming the normal operation of th= e relay systems and links;
- Probability of loss of a packet during a connectivity failure along = one path, if packet replication and elimination [section 3.3] is employed;<= /div>
- Characteristics of recovery times from path failures.

Note the change of wording in the two bullets.  I think that this make= s the bullets right.  But, given this discussion, I think the right an= swer is to start section 3 with just two bullets, max latency and very low = packet loss probability, then explain the mechanism, and only then put the above three bullets.

Also, as long as we=92re at it =97 In the paragraph following the 3 bullets= , it talks about maxima, rather than averages.  Detent provides worst-= case latency, but packet loss remains probabilistic, not a worst-case thing= , so that discussion needs to be modified, too.

2, SEAMLESS REDUNDANCY (1+N)

Chapter 3.3 states names the motivation for seaml= ess redundancy "...

causes of packet loss are random media and/or mem= ory faults, and

equipment failures.", but describes only lin= k/node failure scenarios.

I think adding this sentence to the end of the first paragraph will he= lp:

Both causes of packet loss can be greatly reduced by sending the same = packets over multiple paths.  

Text describes only 1+1 protection and Lou ha= s also commented on this

" Section 3.3 - This section should referenc= e that "Seamless

Redundancy as defined in this section is also kno= wn as 1+1 hitless

protection." "

 

I have found reference to 1+1 protection misl= eading. Protection

against multiple failures or seamless redundancy = motivated by random

media faults (e.g., bit errors) may require 1+= ;N protection. Of course

1+N protection may be an issue for high BW De= tNet flows, but it would

describe the usage of seamless redundancy better.=

 

Proposed change:

Generalize text/example to describe 1+N se= amless redundancy.

First of all, I want to get rid of the term =93seamless redundancy=94 = except when explicitly talking about IEC 62439-3 HSR.  So, let=92s use= the term =93Packet replication and elimination=94 until we have a better t= erm.

Secondly, you=92re right about the reference.  I=92ve been workin= g on this section, also.  I=92ll keep the reference, if only to contra= st 1+1 stream switching with selecting individual packets from two stre= ams.  And, I=92ll mention that it can more than two paths are possible.

3, END SYSTEMS (L2 vs. L3)

Chapter 4.2.3. The Network Plane states: "..= . in the end systems,

which are typically IP hosts". I think this = is rather use-case

specific. IEEE discussions and also the use-case = draft list several

scenarios, where DetNet end systems are L2 nodes,= as the node

developer does not wanted to pay the tax of the I= P protocol stack

implementation and DetNet flow is encapsulated di= rectly in Ethernet

frames.

 

I would argue to keep the DetNet scenarios/use-ca= ses/architecture as

general as possible and we should be prepared to = transport both L2

flows and L3 flows over a DetNet domain.

 

Proposed change:

Generalize text in the terminology section:

"end system - Commonly called a "hos= t" in IETF documents, and an "end

station" is IEEE 802 documents. End syste= ms of interest to

this document are either sources or destinatio= ns. End systems may be

L2 or L3 hosts."

Lou made some comments on the end system definition, also; it=92s gett= ing too big.  I=92ll add the L2/L3 difference, but in fewer words. &nb= sp;Also, we=92ll say in 4.2.3 that end systems can be L2 or L3.

4, DETNET PROTOCOL STACK

I have found the Figure and description in "= 4.7. Protocol Stack

Model" somewhat confusing.

 

4.A, For the Sequence generation/recovery layer t= ext states "Supplies

the sequence number for Seamless Redundancy ...&q= uot;. I think sequence

number is not used exclusively for Seamless Redun= dancy. Seq.number

is needed for (i) loss detection, (ii) deal with = out-of-order-

delivery and (iii) duplicate detection. Therefore= even if seamless

redundancy is not needed by a DetNet flow (e.g., = due to its

parameters) transport requires the seq.number.

 

Proposed change:

List all motivations for seq.num:

"Supplies the sequence number for (i) los= s detection, (ii) deal with

out-of-order-delivery and (iii) duplicate dete= ction (e.g., for

Seamless Redundancy) ..."

Lou also commented on this area, because sometimes the sequence number= is already there in the transport protocol.  Your idea is good.  = ;I=92ll combine them.

4.B, "discards duplicate packets coming up t= he stack" is stated for

both layer "Sequence generation/recovery&quo= t; and "Individual flow

checking". Why is that duplicate discard imp= lemented in two layers?

 

Proposed change: Any clarification ???

A word of explanation is needed in the description of individual flow = checking.  I hesitated to include it at all.  Basically, it is a = function related to 4.6 fault mitigation; it=92s nice to catch faults as so= on as possible and defend agains misbehaving relay systems before the separate flows come together.  Also, operati= ng on one stream at a time, and then operating on the combined pair, is tho= ught by some to improve the reliability.  It=92s in the 802.1 diagrams= , today.

However, your comment makes me reread the section, and now I think tha= t it would be better to omit the =93individual=94 layer, and at most, menti= on that the sequence generation/recovery can usefully operate on a single s= tream.

Thanks & Cheers

 

Bala'zs

 

-----Original Message-----
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-boun= ces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Norman Finn (nfinn)
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 12:29 AM
To: detnet@ietf.org
Subject: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments??

 

In our plan from November, we talked about adopti= ng an architecture draft.

There is a draft for one, and time comment and re= vise it before the deadline for April.  Is it so good there is nothing= more to say?  :)  :)

 

https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-finn-detnet-arc= hitecture-03.txt

 

 

=97 Norm

 

_______________________________________________

detnet mailing list

detnet@ietf.org

https://www.i= etf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
--_000_BCCFE841107E47A5954A7BEB2220A7B5ciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Mar 21 02:13:28 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE7CF12D538 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 02:13:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2DjkIKw_gjPo for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 02:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C1EB12D664 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 02:13:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=64643; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1458551600; x=1459761200; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=ld9/HOnlknAthuWzBYHHkA69IXm7PKN53k8ZAVnegy0=; b=bXCfhul6F4/u1O/N4D2xKAZNq1uBEQJePEH/BqJ47OpCNG5VJTCw+HYU 4CbNR1ID5m4TnPCzWgnFIqcaBwd7SL5bRvALAFjbmerNkpXQ+XaJRDuEx p71DCSijEmnuONUCyGxC7SEl4uQjir37uIjbvp4IXXSXNHeOwvspjzRmK o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D7AQApuu9W/4oNJK1egmdMU3IGuh4BD?= =?us-ascii?q?YFsAxcBC4UgSgKBIjgUAQEBAQEBAWQnhEEBAQEDAQEBARcBDAZBEAcGAQgRAQI?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEhAQYuCxQDBgoEARKIHwgOvgkBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQERBIYeh?= =?us-ascii?q?ESEChMBAT0NCYUgBYddhw+EGIRTAYhihSGPB48FAR4BAUKCAxmBSWoBiFkJFx1?= =?us-ascii?q?+AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.24,370,1454976000"; d="scan'208,217"; a="88510384" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 21 Mar 2016 09:13:18 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com (xch-rtp-020.cisco.com [64.101.220.160]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2L9DHIP008037 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 21 Mar 2016 09:13:18 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-014.cisco.com (64.101.220.154) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com (64.101.220.160) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 05:13:17 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-014.cisco.com ([64.101.220.154]) by XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com ([64.101.220.154]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 05:13:17 -0400 From: "Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)" To: =?Windows-1252?Q?Bal=E1zs_Varga_A?= , "Norman Finn (nfinn)" , DetNet WG Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? Thread-Index: AQHRg1HnKp5oBujhO0u0WMJUTyyHog== Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 09:13:17 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.1.160122 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.49.80.28] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D315784467F14pwetterwciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 09:13:27 -0000 --_000_D315784467F14pwetterwciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, This mail raises a question. Do we consider re-routing as part of determini= stic networking? Future users of Detnet (the ones I talked to, mainly in the smart grid area= ) do not want to consider re-routing as an option for a Deterministic netwo= rking. Personally, I would categorise it as out of the current scope of Detnet. Thanks, Patrick From: detnet > on b= ehalf of Bal=E1zs Varga A > Date: Sunday 20 March 2016 at 19:38 To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" >, DetNet= WG > Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? Hi Norm, Many thanks for the detailed explanations. Now I see your points much bette= r. Some further thoughts on packet loss are below. Your feedback/proposed resolution regarding all other comments are fine wit= h me. Regarding the packet loss I see two things we may have to fix differently: 1, General definition of SLA parameters for DetNet --> draft-use-case? This is a more general (and tricky, as you wrote :--) ) discussion. DetNet = drafts refer to deterministic delay and extreme low packet loss. Delay is a more easy thing to define, as a maximum value seems= to be appropriate for all of the DetNet use-cases. However defining loss is more challenging. There are a group of loss relate= d parameters defined already by various SDOs: Packet Loss Ratio (PLR), Maximum Outage Time, Severely Errored Seconds (SES= ), etc-etc. They are defined to cover the data loss related requirements of different applications. For PSNs we use most the PLR, which is calculated over a population of pack= ets. How to define the population? Further, packet loss events also have a distribution over that population. What is better: = a burst of losses or evenly distributed losses? I think the answers to such questions have to be provided by the applications requi= ring DetNet transport. There can be several reasons causing the loss that has triggered this maili= ngs and I agree we have to list them and consider them all. My first thought is to deal with the SLA definition problem in th= e use-case draft as it is aimed to describe all relevant scenarios/applications. We need a common set of SLA parameters and it can b= e constructed based on the DetNet scenarios / applications. If done, the architecture draft have to consider how to ach= ieve all those SLA parameters. 2, Resolving text in the current version of the architecture draft I like your proposal to start section 3 with just two bullets: > I think the right answer is to start section 3 with just two bullets, > max latency and very low packet loss probability, then explain the > mechanism, and only then put the above three bullets. I think your extended list of loss related parameters points towards the ri= ght direction to resolve our issue here. Let=92s analyze the story from a somewhat different viewpoint. There are 4 = reasons of packet losses: 1, buffer overflow 2, media errors (BER: Bit Error Ratio) 3, link failure 4, node failure The first is something to be solved with =93Zero Congestion Loss=94 tools. = Done. Packet loss probability caused by all the others (2, 3 and 4) are connectio= n specific and depends on topology, distance, etc. Therefore we cannot define a single packet loss value for the whole DetNet = network. What we can say is what packet loss value can be achieved by using different tools for a given connection. For simplicity let=92s take as an example a p2p connection between two UNIs= . Between the UNIs several path may exist (or only a single one) depending on the network topology. What is our toolset t= o deal with the cause of the packet loss? - media error (BER): we can use =93Packet replication and elimination=94 - link failure: we can use =93Re-routing=94 and =93Packet replication and e= limination=94 - node failure: we can use =93Re-routing=94 and =93Packet replication and e= limination=94 So we have in practice two tools: =93Re-routing=94 and =93Packet replicatio= n and elimination=94. Re-routing impacts only packet loss caused by failures and can be character= ized by convergence time (determined by the control plane). Of course actual convergence time is failure scenarios spec= ific but we can give an upper bound on it based on the control plane protocol what is network wide specific. Done. But the impact of =93Packet replication and elimination=94 is connection (U= NIs) & path specific. For each path we can calculate a packet loss value for normal operation (no failures). Loss is determined = by media errors. Therefore we have a set of packet loss values!!! If =93Packet replication and elimination=94 is used w= ith 1+N path, than the expected packet loss value can be calculated based on the =93error correlation of the paths=94 and the= packet loss value sets of the paths. So, the complete list for a given connection (in our example between the tw= o UNIs) using 1+N protection: - Minimum and maximum end-to-end latency from source to destination; - N x Probability of loss of a packet along a given path, assuming the norm= al operation of the relay systems and links; - Probability of loss of a packet if =93packet replication and elimination = (1+N)=94 [section 3.3] is employed; - Characteristics of recovery times from path failures. The list if no =93packet replication and elimination=94 is used: - Minimum and maximum end-to-end latency from source to destination; - Probability of loss of a packet along a given path, assuming the normal o= peration of the relay systems and links; - Characteristics of recovery times from path failures. Let=92s see whether that is fine with all the use-cases or we have to exten= d the list further. Thanks & Cheers Bala=92zs From: Norman Finn (nfinn) [mailto:nfinn@cisco.com] Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 9:52 PM To: Bal=E1zs Varga A; DetNet WG Subject: Re: draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? Some thought provoking comments, Bal=E1zs; they=92ll improve the document. = Detailed responses in-line. =97 Norm From: Bal=E1zs Varga A > Date: Friday, March 18, 2016 at 05:01 AM To: Norman Finn >, DetNet WG > Subject: RE: draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? Hi Norm, some comments/questions for clarification: 1, PACKET LOSS Chapter 3 defines two packet loss term: - Probability of loss of a packet, assuming the normal operation of the relay systems and links; - Probability of loss of a packet in the event of the failure of a relay system or link. I have sympathy with the approach to distinguish the root cause of packet loss, however I think the loss caused by failure is not an appropriate parameter here. Packet loss have to be measured by definition over a "set of packets" what is not easy to define for example in case of re-routing that last for 200msec. Also the DetNet applications may suffer differently from such an outage after a failure. A "Maximum outage time" caused by failure events would be a better parameter. That would also help network designer to decide about the need for seamless redundancy for a DetNet flow. A network tuned for "fast convergence" may require only for some very critical DetNet flow the usage of seamless redundancy. Proposed change: Replace text on second packet loss parameter: "Maximum outage time in the event of the failure of a relay system or link." This gets a bit tricky. In case you=92re not using the =93Packet replicati= on and deletion=94 =3D =93Seamless redundancy=94 =3D =931+1 hitless redunda= ncy=94, which is the usual case of a stream of packets over the Internet (o= r a bridged LAN, for that matter), what you say is dead right, of course. = But if you are using that scheme, the case is a little different. Let me e= xplain the situation, then look at what we can do to fix the document. With the =93Packet replication and deletion=94, you=92re not switched betwe= en streams based on OAM; you=92re receiving every packet, looking at the se= quence information, and passing on the ones you haven=92t seen, possibly ou= t of order because the paths are of different lengths. (Yes, that requires= keeping a history, in the most general case. That=92s another discussion.= ) When using this technique, you=92re going to use pinned paths, so networ= k response time and convergence time after a failure is not a factor. (To = a first approximation. More to come.) Assuming that you are also using re= source reservation to eliminate congestion loss, you have a pretty low prob= ability of loss. Ignoring big failures, it=92s the bit error rate squared.= (!) Of course, on a wired network, the actual total error rate is likely= to be dominated by the failure rate of the branch points, source, and dest= ination, which are not included in the list. If a link fails on one of the paths, there is no convergence time issue, th= ere is no switchover time issue. But, now that one path has failed, the pa= cket loss probability is now the probability of a loss on the second, still= good, path. This is the sense in which =93Probability of loss of a packet= in the event of the failure of a relay system or link=94 seems to me to be= just as valid as the first bullet, although the dependencies are not state= d in the clearest way. (As evidenced by this long explanation.) Connectiv= ity loss time doesn=92t kick in until you talk about the probability of los= s of the branch points, or of two failures, one on each path. Now, we could have three points, restated somewhat: - Probability of loss of a packet, assuming the normal operation of the rel= ay systems and links; - Probability of loss of a packet in the event of a connectivity failure al= ong one path. - Maximum outage time in the event of a connectivity failure involving both= paths. This is a possibility. But, in the scenarios envisioned so far, this gets = us into the question, =93When one path fails, do you wait for it to get fix= ed, or do you try to automatically create a new path?=94 There are many an= swers to this question. Some would like to see ISIS wait a while, then cre= ate a new path. Some (like me) think that the right thing is to let a cent= ral controller and/or human decide whether to create a new 2nd pinned path = based on knowledge of, for example, whether the outage was simply of mater = of the ring being broken, momentarily, to add a new hop. The justification= is that the remaining zero congestion loss path buys you some reaction tim= e. So, let=92s fix the document. Given the above discussion, which has not be= en seen by the reader at this point in the draft, I=92d say the following: (- Minimum and maximum end-to-end latency from source to destination;) - Probability of loss of a packet, assuming the normal operation of the rel= ay systems and links; - Probability of loss of a packet during a connectivity failure along one p= ath, if packet replication and elimination [section 3.3] is employed; - Characteristics of recovery times from path failures. Note the change of wording in the two bullets. I think that this makes the= bullets right. But, given this discussion, I think the right answer is to= start section 3 with just two bullets, max latency and very low packet los= s probability, then explain the mechanism, and only then put the above thre= e bullets. Also, as long as we=92re at it =97 In the paragraph following the 3 bullets= , it talks about maxima, rather than averages. Detent provides worst-case = latency, but packet loss remains probabilistic, not a worst-case thing, so = that discussion needs to be modified, too. 2, SEAMLESS REDUNDANCY (1+N) Chapter 3.3 states names the motivation for seamless redundancy "... causes of packet loss are random media and/or memory faults, and equipment failures.", but describes only link/node failure scenarios. I think adding this sentence to the end of the first paragraph will help: Both causes of packet loss can be greatly reduced by sending the same packe= ts over multiple paths. Text describes only 1+1 protection and Lou has also commented on this " Section 3.3 - This section should reference that "Seamless Redundancy as defined in this section is also known as 1+1 hitless protection." " I have found reference to 1+1 protection misleading. Protection against multiple failures or seamless redundancy motivated by random media faults (e.g., bit errors) may require 1+N protection. Of course 1+N protection may be an issue for high BW DetNet flows, but it would describe the usage of seamless redundancy better. Proposed change: Generalize text/example to describe 1+N seamless redundancy. First of all, I want to get rid of the term =93seamless redundancy=94 excep= t when explicitly talking about IEC 62439-3 HSR. So, let=92s use the term = =93Packet replication and elimination=94 until we have a better term. Secondly, you=92re right about the reference. I=92ve been working on this = section, also. I=92ll keep the reference, if only to contrast 1+1 stream s= witching with selecting individual packets from two streams. And, I=92ll m= ention that it can more than two paths are possible. 3, END SYSTEMS (L2 vs. L3) Chapter 4.2.3. The Network Plane states: "... in the end systems, which are typically IP hosts". I think this is rather use-case specific. IEEE discussions and also the use-case draft list several scenarios, where DetNet end systems are L2 nodes, as the node developer does not wanted to pay the tax of the IP protocol stack implementation and DetNet flow is encapsulated directly in Ethernet frames. I would argue to keep the DetNet scenarios/use-cases/architecture as general as possible and we should be prepared to transport both L2 flows and L3 flows over a DetNet domain. Proposed change: Generalize text in the terminology section: "end system - Commonly called a "host" in IETF documents, and an "end station" is IEEE 802 documents. End systems of interest to this document are either sources or destinations. End systems may be L2 or L3 hosts." Lou made some comments on the end system definition, also; it=92s getting t= oo big. I=92ll add the L2/L3 difference, but in fewer words. Also, we=92l= l say in 4.2.3 that end systems can be L2 or L3. 4, DETNET PROTOCOL STACK I have found the Figure and description in "4.7. Protocol Stack Model" somewhat confusing. 4.A, For the Sequence generation/recovery layer text states "Supplies the sequence number for Seamless Redundancy ...". I think sequence number is not used exclusively for Seamless Redundancy. Seq.number is needed for (i) loss detection, (ii) deal with out-of-order- delivery and (iii) duplicate detection. Therefore even if seamless redundancy is not needed by a DetNet flow (e.g., due to its parameters) transport requires the seq.number. Proposed change: List all motivations for seq.num: "Supplies the sequence number for (i) loss detection, (ii) deal with out-of-order-delivery and (iii) duplicate detection (e.g., for Seamless Redundancy) ..." Lou also commented on this area, because sometimes the sequence number is a= lready there in the transport protocol. Your idea is good. I=92ll combine= them. 4.B, "discards duplicate packets coming up the stack" is stated for both layer "Sequence generation/recovery" and "Individual flow checking". Why is that duplicate discard implemented in two layers? Proposed change: Any clarification ??? A word of explanation is needed in the description of individual flow check= ing. I hesitated to include it at all. Basically, it is a function relate= d to 4.6 fault mitigation; it=92s nice to catch faults as soon as possible = and defend agains misbehaving relay systems before the separate flows come = together. Also, operating on one stream at a time, and then operating on t= he combined pair, is thought by some to improve the reliability. It=92s in= the 802.1 diagrams, today. However, your comment makes me reread the section, and now I think that it = would be better to omit the =93individual=94 layer, and at most, mention th= at the sequence generation/recovery can usefully operate on a single stream= . Thanks & Cheers Bala'zs -----Original Message----- From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Norman Finn (nfi= nn) Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 12:29 AM To: detnet@ietf.org Subject: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? In our plan from November, we talked about adopting an architecture draft. There is a draft for one, and time comment and revise it before the deadlin= e for April. Is it so good there is nothing more to say? :) :) https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03.txt =97 Norm _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet --_000_D315784467F14pwetterwciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear all,

This mail raises a question. Do we consider re-routing as part of dete= rministic networking?

Future users of Detnet (the ones I talked to, mainly in the smart grid= area) do not want to consider re-routing as an option for a Deterministic = networking. 

Personally, I would categorise it as out of the current scope of Detne= t.

Thanks,

Patrick

From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Bal= =E1zs Varga A <balazs.a.v= arga@ericsson.com>
Date: Sunday 20 March 2016 at 19:38=
To: "Norman Finn (nfinn)"= <nfinn@cisco.com>, DetNet WG = <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-de= tnet-architecture-03 comments??

Hi Norm,

 

Many thanks for the de= tailed explanations. Now I see your points much better. Some further though= ts on packet loss are below.

Your feedback/proposed= resolution regarding all other comments are fine with me.

 

Regarding the packet l= oss I see two things we may have to fix differently:

1, General definiti= on of SLA parameters for DetNet --> draft-use-case?

This is a more general= (and tricky, as you wrote :--) ) discussion. DetNet drafts refer to determ= inistic delay and extreme low

packet loss. Delay is = a more easy thing to define, as a maximum value seems to be appropriate for= all of the DetNet use-cases.

However defining loss = is more challenging. There are a group of loss related parameters defined a= lready by various SDOs:

Packet Loss Ratio (PLR= ), Maximum Outage Time, Severely Errored Seconds (SES), etc-etc. They are d= efined to cover the

data loss related requ= irements of different applications.

 

For PSNs we use most t= he PLR, which is calculated over a population of packets. How to define the= population? Further, packet

loss events also have = a distribution over that population. What is better: a burst of losses or e= venly distributed losses? I think

the answers to such qu= estions have to be provided by the applications requiring DetNet transport.=

 

There can be several r= easons causing the loss that has triggered this mailings and I agree we hav= e to list them and consider

them all. My first tho= ught is to deal with the SLA definition problem in the use-case draft as it= is aimed to describe all relevant

scenarios/applications= . We need a common set of SLA parameters and it can be constructed based on= the DetNet scenarios

/ applications. If don= e, the architecture draft have to consider how to achieve all those SLA par= ameters.

 

2, Resolving text i= n the current version of the architecture draft

I like your proposal t= o start section 3 with just two bullets:

> I think the right answer is to start section 3 with just= two bullets,

> max latency and very low packet loss probability, then e= xplain the

> mechanism, and only then put the above three bullets.

 

I think your extended = list of loss related parameters points towards the right direction to resol= ve our issue here.

Let=92s analyze the st= ory from a somewhat different viewpoint. There are 4 reasons of packet loss= es:

1, buffer overflow

2, media errors (BER: = Bit Error Ratio)

3, link failure

4, node failure

 

The first is something= to be solved with =93Zero Congestion Loss=94 tools. Done.

 

Packet loss probabilit= y caused by all the others (2, 3 and 4) are connection specific and depends= on topology, distance, etc.

Therefore we cannot de= fine a single packet loss value for the whole DetNet network. What we can s= ay is what packet loss

value can be achieved = by using different tools for a given connection.

 

For simplicity let=92s= take as an example a p2p connection between two UNIs. Between the UNIs sev= eral path may exist (or

only a single one) dep= ending on the network topology. What is our toolset to deal with the cause = of the packet loss?

- media error (BER): w= e can use =93Packet replication and elimination=94

- link failure: we can= use =93Re-routing=94 and =93Packet replication and elimination=94

- node failure: we can= use =93Re-routing=94 and =93Packet replication and elimination=94

 

So we have in practice= two tools: =93Re-routing=94 and =93Packet replication and elimination=94.

 

Re-routing impacts onl= y packet loss caused by failures and can be characterized by convergence ti= me (determined by the

control plane). Of cou= rse actual convergence time is failure scenarios specific but we can give a= n upper bound on it based

on the control plane p= rotocol what is network wide specific. Done.

 

But the impact of =93P= acket replication and elimination=94 is connection (UNIs) & path specif= ic. For each path we can calculate

a packet loss value fo= r normal operation (no failures). Loss is determined by media errors. There= fore we have a set of

packet loss values!!! = If =93Packet replication and elimination=94 is used with 1+N path, than= the expected packet loss value

can be calculated base= d on the =93error correlation of the paths=94 and the packet loss value set= s of the paths.

 

So, the complete list = for a given connection (in our example between the two UNIs) using 1+N = protection:

- Minimum and maximum = end-to-end latency from source to destination;

- N x Probability of l= oss of a packet along a given path, assuming the normal operation of the re= lay systems and links;

- Probability of loss = of a packet if =93packet replication and elimination (1+N)=94 [section = 3.3] is employed;

- Characteristics of r= ecovery times from path failures.

 

The list if no =93pack= et replication and elimination=94 is used:

- Minimum and maximum = end-to-end latency from source to destination;

- Probability of loss = of a packet along a given path, assuming the normal operation of the relay = systems and links;

- Characteristics of r= ecovery times from path failures.

 

Let=92s see whether th= at is fine with all the use-cases or we have to extend the list further.

 

Thanks & Cheers

Bala=92zs

 

From: Norman Finn (nfinn) [mailto:nfinn@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 9:52 PM
To: Bal=E1zs Varga A; DetNet WG
Subject: Re: draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments??=

 

Some thought provoking comments, Bal=E1zs; they=92ll improve = the document.  Detailed responses in-line.

 

=97 Norm

 

From: Bal=E1zs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>
Date: Friday, March 18, 2016 at 05:01 AM
To: Norman Finn <nfinn@cisco.c= om>, DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.or= g>
Subject: RE: draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments??=

 

Hi Norm,

 

some comments/questio= ns for clarification:

 

1, PACKET LOSS

Chapter 3 defines two= packet loss term:

- Probability of loss= of a packet, assuming the normal operation of

the relay systems and= links;

- Probability of loss= of a packet in the event of the failure of a

relay system or link.=

 

I have sympathy with = the approach to distinguish the root cause of

packet loss, however = I think the loss caused by failure is not an

appropriate parameter= here. Packet loss have to be measured by

definition over a &qu= ot;set of packets" what is not easy to define for

example in case of re= -routing that last for 200msec. Also the DetNet

applications may suff= er differently from such an outage after a

failure. A "Maxi= mum outage time" caused by failure events would be a

better parameter. Tha= t would also help network designer to decide

about the need for se= amless redundancy for a DetNet flow. A network

tuned for "fast = convergence" may require only for some very critical

DetNet flow the usage= of seamless redundancy.

 

Proposed change:

Replace text on se= cond packet loss parameter: "Maximum outage time in

the event of the f= ailure of a relay system or link." 

 

This gets a bit tricky.  In case you=92re not using the = =93Packet replication and deletion=94 =3D =93Seamless redundancy=94 =3D =93= 1+1 hitless redundancy=94, which is the usual case of a stream of packets over the Internet (or a bridged LAN, for that matter), what you= say is dead right, of course.  But if you are using that scheme, the = case is a little different.  Let me explain the situation, then look a= t what we can do to fix the document.

 

With the =93Packet replication and deletion=94, you=92re not = switched between streams based on OAM; you=92re receiving every packet, loo= king at the sequence information, and passing on the ones you haven=92t seen, possibly out of order because the paths ar= e of different lengths.  (Yes, that requires keeping a history, in the= most general case.  That=92s another discussion.)  When using th= is technique, you=92re going to use pinned paths, so network response time and convergence time after a failure is not a factor= .  (To a first approximation.  More to come.)  Assuming that= you are also using resource reservation to eliminate congestion loss, you = have a pretty low probability of loss.  Ignoring big failures, it=92s the bit error rate squared.  (!)  Of course= , on a wired network, the actual total error rate is likely to be dominated= by the failure rate of the branch points, source, and destination, which a= re not included in the list.

 

If a link fails on one of the paths, there is no convergence = time issue, there is no switchover time issue.  But, now that one path= has failed, the packet loss probability is now the probability of a loss on the second, still good, path.  Th= is is the sense in which =93Probability of loss of a packet in the event of= the failure of a relay system or link=94 seems to me to be just as va= lid as the first bullet, although the dependencies are not stated in the clearest way.  (As evidenced by this long expla= nation.)  Connectivity loss time doesn=92t kick in until you talk abou= t the probability of loss of the branch points, or of two failures, one on = each path.

 

Now, we could have three points, restated somewhat:

 

- Probability of loss of a packet, assuming the normal operat= ion of the relay systems and links;

- Probability of loss of a packet in the event of a connectiv= ity failure along one path.

- Maximum outage time in the event of a connectivity fai= lure involving both paths.

 

This is a possibility.  But, in the scenarios envisioned= so far, this gets us into the question, =93When one path fails, do you wai= t for it to get fixed, or do you try to automatically create a new path?=94  There are many answers to this question.  = ;Some would like to see ISIS wait a while, then create a new path.  So= me (like me) think that the right thing is to let a central controller and/= or human decide whether to create a new 2nd pinned path based on knowledge of, for example, whether the outage was simply of = mater of the ring being broken, momentarily, to add a new hop.  The ju= stification is that the remaining zero congestion loss path buys you some r= eaction time.

 

So, let=92s fix the document.  Given the above discussio= n, which has not been seen by the reader at this point in the draft, I=92d = say the following:

 

(- Minimum and maximum end-to-end latency from source to= destination;)

- Probability of loss of a packet, assuming the normal operat= ion of the relay systems and links;

- Probability of loss of a packet during a connectivity failu= re along one path, if packet replication and elimination [section 3.3] is e= mployed;

- Characteristics of recovery times from path failures.<= /o:p>

 

Note the change of wording in the two bullets.  I think = that this makes the bullets right.  But, given this discussion, I thin= k the right answer is to start section 3 with just two bullets, max latency and very low packet loss probability, then e= xplain the mechanism, and only then put the above three bullets.=

 

Also, as long as we=92re at it =97 In the paragraph following= the 3 bullets, it talks about maxima, rather than averages.  Detent p= rovides worst-case latency, but packet loss remains probabilistic, not a worst-case thing, so that discussion needs to be modi= fied, too.

 

2, SEAMLESS REDUND= ANCY (1+N)

Chapter 3.3 states na= mes the motivation for seamless redundancy "...

causes of packet loss= are random media and/or memory faults, and

equipment failures.&q= uot;, but describes only link/node failure scenarios.

 

I think adding this sentence to the end of the first paragrap= h will help:

 

Both causes of packet loss can be greatly reduced by sending = the same packets over multiple paths.  

 

Text describes only 1= +1 protection and Lou has also commented on this

" Section 3.3 - = This section should reference that "Seamless

Redundancy as defined= in this section is also known as 1+1 hitless

protection." &qu= ot;

 

I have found referenc= e to 1+1 protection misleading. Protection

against multiple fail= ures or seamless redundancy motivated by random

media faults (e.g., b= it errors) may require 1+N protection. Of course

1+N protection ma= y be an issue for high BW DetNet flows, but it would

describe the usage of= seamless redundancy better.

 

Proposed change:

Generalize text/ex= ample to describe 1+N seamless redundancy.

 

First of all, I want to get rid of the term =93seamless redun= dancy=94 except when explicitly talking about IEC 62439-3 HSR.  So, le= t=92s use the term =93Packet replication and elimination=94 until we have a better term.

 

Secondly, you=92re right about the reference.  I=92ve be= en working on this section, also.  I=92ll keep the reference, if only = to contrast 1+1 stream switching with selecting individual packets from two streams.  And, I=92ll mention that it can more than = two paths are possible.

 

3, END SYSTEMS (L2= vs. L3)

Chapter 4.2.3. The Ne= twork Plane states: "... in the end systems,

which are typically I= P hosts". I think this is rather use-case

specific. IEEE discus= sions and also the use-case draft list several

scenarios, where DetN= et end systems are L2 nodes, as the node

developer does not wa= nted to pay the tax of the IP protocol stack

implementation and De= tNet flow is encapsulated directly in Ethernet

frames.

 

I would argue to keep= the DetNet scenarios/use-cases/architecture as

general as possible a= nd we should be prepared to transport both L2

flows and L3 flows ov= er a DetNet domain.

 

Proposed change:

Generalize text in= the terminology section:=

"end system -= Commonly called a "host" in IETF documents, and an "end

station" is I= EEE 802 documents. End systems of interest to

this document are = either sources or destinations. End systems may be

L2 or L3 hosts.&qu= ot;

 

Lou made some comments on the end system definition, also; it= =92s getting too big.  I=92ll add the L2/L3 difference, but in fewer w= ords.  Also, we=92ll say in 4.2.3 that end systems can be L2 or L3.

 

4, DETNET PROTOCOL= STACK

I have found the Figu= re and description in "4.7. Protocol Stack

Model" somewhat = confusing.

 

4.A, For the Sequence= generation/recovery layer text states "Supplies

the sequence number f= or Seamless Redundancy ...". I think sequence

number is not used ex= clusively for Seamless Redundancy. Seq.number

is needed for (i) los= s detection, (ii) deal with out-of-order-

delivery and (iii) du= plicate detection. Therefore even if seamless

redundancy is not nee= ded by a DetNet flow (e.g., due to its

parameters) transport= requires the seq.number.

 

Proposed change:

List all motivatio= ns for seq.num:

"Supplies the= sequence number for (i) loss detection, (ii) deal with

out-of-order-deliv= ery and (iii) duplicate detection (e.g., for

Seamless Redundanc= y) ..."

 

Lou also commented on this area, because sometimes the sequen= ce number is already there in the transport protocol.  Your idea is go= od.  I=92ll combine them.

 

4.B, "discards d= uplicate packets coming up the stack" is stated for

both layer "Sequ= ence generation/recovery" and "Individual flow

checking". Why i= s that duplicate discard implemented in two layers?

 

Proposed change: A= ny clarification ???

 

A word of explanation is needed in the description of individ= ual flow checking.  I hesitated to include it at all.  Basically,= it is a function related to 4.6 fault mitigation; it=92s nice to catch faults as soon as possible and defend agains misbehav= ing relay systems before the separate flows come together.  Also, oper= ating on one stream at a time, and then operating on the combined pair, is = thought by some to improve the reliability.  It=92s in the 802.1 diagrams, today.

 

However, your comment makes me reread the section, and now I = think that it would be better to omit the =93individual=94 layer, and at mo= st, mention that the sequence generation/recovery can usefully operate on a single stream.

 

Thanks & Cheers

 

Bala'zs

 

-----Original Message= -----
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-boun= ces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Norman Finn (nfinn)
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 12:29 AM
To: detnet@ietf.org
Subject: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments??

 

In our plan from Nove= mber, we talked about adopting an architecture draft.

There is a draft for = one, and time comment and revise it before the deadline for April.  Is= it so good there is nothing more to say?  :)  :)

 

https://www.ietf.org/internet-= drafts/draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03.txt

 

 

=97 Norm

 

_____________________= __________________________

detnet mailing list

detnet@= ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=

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Thread-Index: AQHRg1HnKp5oBujhO0u0WMJUTyyHop9j6swA Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 15:51:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.1.160122 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.63.230] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D315666A4A5ECnfinnciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? 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autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D1xL0DB66_AL; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 08:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from de307622-de-outbound.net.avaya.com (de307622-de-outbound.net.avaya.com [198.152.71.100]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 835E412D8DE; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 08:51:50 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A2CrAgBG6etW/yYyC4deGQEBAQEPAQEBAQGCaSuBQga6FQENgW+GDQKBLzgUAQEBAQEBAWQnQRIBg20BAQEBAxIoPwwEAgEIDQQDAQEBCxQJBzIUCQgCBAENBQgaiAUBpy+aKQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARWGH4RDhAwRAR6DK4IrBZdWAY9ohEqDG4U9jwUeAQFCg2VqgleGWjQBfQEBAQ X-IPAS-Result: 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Thread-Index: AQHRgWxKxOQpw1HKt0Cf44Ec4VdnOZ9j/yIAgAAREqA= Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 15:51:45 +0000 Message-ID: <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA75198957@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> References: <56EC8C60.8060308@labn.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.64.58.47] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: DetNet Chairs Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 15:51:52 -0000 Support.=20 Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Norman Finn > (nfinn) > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 5:50 PM > To: Lou Berger; detnet@ietf.org > Cc: DetNet Chairs > Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem- > statement >=20 > Support >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet on behalf of Lou Berger > > Date: Friday, March 18, 2016 at 16:16 PM > To: "detnet@ietf.org" > Cc: DetNet Chairs > Subject: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement >=20 > >All, > > > >This is start of a two week poll on making > >draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement-05 a working group document. > Please > >send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not support". > >If indicating no, please state your reservations with the document. If > >yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd like to see > >addressed once the document is a WG document. > > > >The poll ends April 1, 2016 > > > >Thanks, > > > >Lou and Pat From nobody Mon Mar 21 08:54:22 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5602212D8E5 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 08:54:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rAFr6gfmbt9F for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 08:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E12C512D8E3 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 08:54:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2254; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1458575644; x=1459785244; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=fajWqVkJDfpXk0EJGPFXLkhpd8q85OlE2/o/G9hvPX8=; b=IJz297/N4u0NLR23p/ta4ufgtpxT7kQgP+S2lvRWJZRGNstjbylQMsU8 PFUomMQv1t5R+jmIGPS6cjILdvAJGWNkOfdvQsAA1MA9v5Pt3xs4Cn9cy MQZqkcF5W/Te96eXF4s8pPomHiL2aH9IONzvGAqMnBZ8cLdw8WYd7e5XD Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AbAgAAGPBW/4oNJK1egzRTcga6HwENg?= =?us-ascii?q?XAXDIUgSgIcgQs4FAEBAQEBAQFkJ4RBAQEBBAEBASAROhcEAgEIEQECAQIBAgI?= =?us-ascii?q?mAgICJQsVAgYIAgQBEognDq9zjyIBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQERBHyFI?= =?us-ascii?q?oREhDoYgmqCVgWXVwGOA48HjwUBHgEBQoNlagGJFn4BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,372,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="88647676" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 21 Mar 2016 15:54:03 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-015.cisco.com (xch-aln-015.cisco.com [173.36.7.25]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2LFs43c015976 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 15:54:04 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-018.cisco.com (173.37.102.28) by XCH-ALN-015.cisco.com (173.36.7.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:54:03 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-018.cisco.com ([173.37.102.28]) by XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com ([173.37.102.28]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:54:02 -0500 From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" To: "Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? Thread-Index: AQHRgRnpDjOGF+42/0ml6rbgHyTzdZ9j8AqA Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 15:54:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.1.160122 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.63.230] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? 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(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 21 Mar 2016 16:00:02 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-018.cisco.com (173.37.102.28) by XCH-ALN-019.cisco.com (173.36.7.29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 11:00:01 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-018.cisco.com ([173.37.102.28]) by XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com ([173.37.102.28]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 11:00:01 -0500 From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" To: =?utf-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBWYXJnYSBB?= , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? Thread-Index: AQHRelt3Kp5oBujhO0u0WMJUTyyHop9eKP9ggACNyQCABFecgIAA8M0A Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 16:00:01 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3002A87EA61E0A4DB56546AC16A0D5171EF3CEF7@ESESSMB103.ericsson.se> <3002A87EA61E0A4DB56546AC16A0D5171EF4808C@ESESSMB103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <3002A87EA61E0A4DB56546AC16A0D5171EF4808C@ESESSMB103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.1.160122 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.63.230] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D31568234A5F4nfinnciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-03 comments?? X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 16:08:31 -0000 --_000_D31568234A5F4nfinnciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R3JlYXQgc3R1ZmYgQmFsw6F6cy4gIEl0IHJlbWFpbnMgdG8gc2VlIGhvdyBtdWNoIG9mIHRoaXMg c3R1ZmYgSSBjYW4gZ2V0IGludG8gdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IGJlZm9yZSB0aGUgZGVhZGxpbmUuICBO b3QgYWxsIG9mIGl0LiAgQnV0IGF0IHNvbWUgcG9pbnQsIGl0IG5lZWRzIHRvIGJlIHRoZXJlLg0K DQrigJQgTm9ybQ0KDQpGcm9tOiBCYWzDoXpzIFZhcmdhIEEgPGJhbGF6cy5hLnZhcmdhQGVyaWNz c29uLmNvbTxtYWlsdG86YmFsYXpzLmEudmFyZ2FAZXJpY3Nzb24uY29tPj4NCkRhdGU6IFN1bmRh eSwgTWFyY2ggMjAsIDIwMTYgYXQgMTE6MzggQU0NClRvOiBOb3JtYW4gRmlubiA8bmZpbm5AY2lz Y28uY29tPG1haWx0bzpuZmlubkBjaXNjby5jb20+PiwgImRldG5ldEBpZXRmLm9yZzxtYWlsdG86 ZGV0bmV0QGlldGYub3JnPiIgPGRldG5ldEBpZXRmLm9yZzxtYWlsdG86ZGV0bmV0QGlldGYub3Jn 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--_000_D31568234A5F4nfinnciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Mar 21 10:04:16 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3B5B12D931; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:04:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QYIb_nwZd32w; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,372,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="251202526" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 21 Mar 2016 17:03:51 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-016.cisco.com (xch-rcd-016.cisco.com [173.37.102.26]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2LH3plU017806 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 21 Mar 2016 17:03:51 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-018.cisco.com (173.37.102.28) by XCH-RCD-016.cisco.com (173.37.102.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 12:03:50 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-018.cisco.com ([173.37.102.28]) by XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com ([173.37.102.28]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 12:03:50 -0500 From: "Norman Finn (nfinn)" To: Lou Berger , Pat Thaler , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-finn-detnet-architecture-04 Thread-Index: AQHRg5Oj0cGyoOcDOkK0iuJ2afei8Q== Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 17:03:50 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.1.160122 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.63.230] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: DetNet Chairs Subject: [Detnet] draft-finn-detnet-architecture-04 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 17:04:16 -0000 SeKAmXZlIHVwbG9hZGVkIGEgbmV3IHZlcnNpb24gb2YgdGhlIERldE5ldCBhcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUg ZHJhZnQgYmFzZWQgb24gdGhlDQpjb21tZW50cyByZWNlaXZlZCBvdmVyIHRoZSBsYXN0IHdlZWsg b3Igc28uICBNYW55IHRoYW5rcyB0byB0aG9zZSB3aG8NCmNvbW1lbnRlZC4gIEkgZG9u4oCZdCB0 aGluayBJIGdvdCBpbiBldmVyeXRoaW5nLCBidXQgZG8gdGhpbmsgdGhhdCB0aGUNCmRvY3VtZW50 IGlzIG11Y2ggaW1wcm92ZWQuICBIb3BlZnVsbHksIHdlIGNhbiBhZG9wdCBpdCBhbmQgbW92ZSBm b3J3YXJkLg0KDQrigJQgTm9ybQ0KDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Mar 21 10:36:05 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7149612D94A; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:36:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.17.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160321173603.31959.3609.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:36:03 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: detnet@ietf.org Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-09.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 17:36:04 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking of the IETF. Title : Deterministic Networking Use Cases Authors : Ethan Grossman Craig Gunther Pascal Thubert Patrick Wetterwald Jean Raymond Jouni Korhonen Yu Kaneko Subir Das Yiyong Zha Balázs Varga János Farkas Franz-Josef Goetz Juergen Schmitt Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-09.txt Pages : 70 Date : 2016-03-21 Abstract: This draft documents requirements in several diverse industries to establish multi-hop paths for characterized flows with deterministic properties. In this context deterministic implies that streams can be established which provide guaranteed bandwidth and latency which can be established from either a Layer 2 or Layer 3 (IP) interface, and which can co-exist on an IP network with best-effort traffic. Additional requirements include optional redundant paths, very high reliability paths, time synchronization, and clock distribution. Industries considered include wireless for industrial applications, professional audio, electrical utilities, building automation systems, radio/mobile access networks, automotive, and gaming. For each case, this document will identify the application, identify representative solutions used today, and what new uses an IETF DetNet solution may enable. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-09 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-09 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Mar 21 10:39:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDFE312D9AA for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:39:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.621 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.621 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CFsKDNRHv9qY for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:39:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com (mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com [67.231.152.235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A66AD12D9B7 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0000695.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.15.0.59/8.15.0.59) with SMTP id u2LHXpeM024622 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:38:15 -0700 Received: from dlb-xmrpw01.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.182.43]) by mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 21tjh5rg9h-2 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:38:14 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XMRPW01.dolby.net (10.213.22.204) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.266.1; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:38:13 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1076.9; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:38:11 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1076.000; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:38:11 -0700 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: DetNet Use Cases Draft 09 Thread-Index: AdGDmE4Gfp3U0bj0RnyvZW7EJdgD6g== Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 17:38:11 +0000 Message-ID: <0b79f0f268ce431eb7d59781ddbe3b8b@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.207.133.62] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.15.96, 1.0.3, 0.0.0000 definitions=2016-03-21_09:2016-03-21,2016-03-21,1970-01-01 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases Draft 09 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 17:39:17 -0000 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pps.filterd (m0000695.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.15.0.59/8.15.0.59) with SMTP id u2LHcVqA027375 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:42:32 -0700 Received: from dlb-xmrpw02.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.182.43]) by mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 21tjh5rgjr-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:42:32 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW04.dolby.net (10.233.7.4) by DLB-XMRPW02.dolby.net (10.213.22.205) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.266.1; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:42:28 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW04.dolby.net (10.233.7.4) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1076.9; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:42:26 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1076.000; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:42:26 -0700 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement Thread-Index: AQHRgWxK4iZoWGmhFUGblb46PJP/IZ9khT4AgAAAZYD//6lxoA== Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 17:42:25 +0000 Message-ID: <40b31c7fb9b4438896dff90de9f0e918@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> References: <56EC8C60.8060308@labn.net> <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA75198957@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> In-Reply-To: <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA75198957@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.207.133.62] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.15.96, 1.0.3, 0.0.0000 definitions=2016-03-21_09:2016-03-21,2016-03-21,1970-01-01 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 17:42:35 -0000 Support. Ethan. -----Original Message----- From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Romascanu, Dan (= Dan) Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 8:52 AM To: Norman Finn (nfinn); Lou Berger; detnet@ietf.org Cc: DetNet Chairs Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement Support.=20 Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Norman Finn > (nfinn) > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 5:50 PM > To: Lou Berger; detnet@ietf.org > Cc: DetNet Chairs > Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-=20 > statement >=20 > Support >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet on behalf of Lou Berger=20 > > Date: Friday, March 18, 2016 at 16:16 PM > To: "detnet@ietf.org" > Cc: DetNet Chairs > Subject: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement >=20 > >All, > > > >This is start of a two week poll on making > >draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement-05 a working group document. > Please > >send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not support". > >If indicating no, please state your reservations with the document. =20 > >If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd like to see=20 > >addressed once the document is a WG document. > > > >The poll ends April 1, 2016 > > > >Thanks, > > > >Lou and Pat _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Mon Mar 21 12:14:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B751212D8B1 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 12:14:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=broadcom.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OUVcrLp6r4ND for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 12:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x236.google.com (mail-pf0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B114E12D6A4 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 12:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id x3so275693737pfb.1 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 12:14:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gb1i7zxj9nNMDrSKSAdY12t/HYHI5O8X6LysKLUxZCE=; b=SScVmNSGwjDCG+nFbmp8zlMVECMKmu7i0ONKqRvUfvrsLyc6V2RW4moQvATMA0ty8Y 8t2EPXiCiV2sosjabEdZqaS10w6VXqv8585ex25qG/zq1L8zrml4c+cmbRxE1pYveM6W PHrz/a26Jf6e45Eu7QP5BDW1pjBPAKbGea56Q= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gb1i7zxj9nNMDrSKSAdY12t/HYHI5O8X6LysKLUxZCE=; b=TS7BIgZw7RET2NoCoNmBeowj7jx3/S3G9exsAoSztu+V/7SU7fjffkd733IS93rnBc VC+CLjjGc9ncnSCIN+qYVLraYrt7JgmhaTbUTM5NnwMrXiTVGG/DuGD99i04NhU+ytxS mCsgS3Tys4B7aS/h3hHpPBOJfZSL/pGKzyh+6k+LMQ6eBtYA8XTQ1B23pcDpmKIKo4Kg yeVhCpbHV3//ObF9kHrCj3w/h9bBa4nzqNC9gmi6J32qTWp5wvWK3xm0TohC00biJaYo Pwed//RggC1khwFYrszNvDDulb8SO3RK4mrnbzw91hnS+WQXtDimys5bEdN1ai/Luha8 rD/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLl+vHKNNIR3Fo7YB6QGKMEkIM+m8wc9TMslKr+008JxhofTNFgdBKtyV0i5yQ0ebvS X-Received: by 10.66.97.8 with SMTP id dw8mr48089866pab.28.1458587641201; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 12:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.16.75.100] (5520-maca-inet1-outside.broadcom.com. [216.31.211.11]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r5sm42555842pap.7.2016.03.21.12.14.00 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 21 Mar 2016 12:14:00 -0700 (PDT) To: DetNet WG References: <56DDC2C1.4020305@broadcom.com> From: Jouni Korhonen Message-ID: <56F047F1.3090901@broadcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 12:13:53 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <56DDC2C1.4020305@broadcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: Lou Berger , "Pat \(Patricia\) Thaler" Subject: [Detnet] Draft agenda uploaded; was Re: Agenda requests for IETF95 in Buenos Aires X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 19:14:03 -0000 Folks, The draft agenda for IETF95 DetNet WG meeting has been uploaded: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/agenda/agenda-95-detnet Lou, Pat, Jouni 3/7/2016, 10:04 AM, Jouni Korhonen kirjoitti: > Folks, > > The preliminary agenda was published last Friday, > seehttps://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/95/agenda.html. DetNet WG is > on air from 10:00 - 12:30 on Tuesday April 5th in Buen Ayre A. > > If you'd like to have a presentation slot in Buenos Aires, please send > a request to the chairs and me by Friday March 18th. Also pay > attention to the important dates listed below. Specifically, the > document submission deadline is UTC 23:59 on March 21st. When > requesting a slot having a draft that has alrady been seen and > discussed on the list is highly encouraged. > > Any WG draft not being discussed/presented needs to a status update > sent to the list by Sunday March 27th. Please also provide a summary > slide by Saturday, April 2nd. > > We'll need all slides for presentations by Saturday, April 2nd. The > earlier, the better, though. > > Cheers, > Jouni, Lou & Pat > > > 2016-03-21 (Monday): Internet Draft submission cut-off (for all > drafts, including -00) by UTC 23:59, upload using IETF ID Submission > Tool. > 2016-03-21 (Monday): Draft Working Group agendas due by UTC 23:59, > upload using IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool. > 2016-03-25 (Friday): Early Bird registration and payment cut-off at > UTC 23:59. > 2016-03-28 (Monday): Revised Working Group agendas due by UTC 23:59, > upload using IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool. > 2016-03-28 (Monday): Registration cancellation cut-off at UTC 23:59. > 2016-04-01 (Friday): Final Pre-Registration and Pre-Payment cut-off at > 17:00 local meeting time. > 2016-04-03 - 2016-04-08: IETF 95 in Buenos Aires, Argentina > From nobody Mon Mar 21 19:03:56 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C3912D117 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 19:03:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dwh_MUgufv0O for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 19:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7020C12D127 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 19:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CLB86558; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 02:03:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SZXEML424-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.153) by lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 02:03:13 +0000 Received: from SZXEML592-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.26]) by SZXEML424-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.153]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 10:03:09 +0800 From: zhayiyong To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement Thread-Index: AQHRgWxOekvp8fagAEuIPNmWgeBNZJ9jickAgAAAZYCAAB7sgIABEetQ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 02:03:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: <56EC8C60.8060308@labn.net> <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA75198957@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> <40b31c7fb9b4438896dff90de9f0e918@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> In-Reply-To: <40b31c7fb9b4438896dff90de9f0e918@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.61.15.96] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090201.56F0A806.0118, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.26, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 97f3f1bbbdba35d4b9d19b2330e8d057 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 02:03:54 -0000 Support. Yiyong -----Original Message----- From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Grossman, Ethan = A. Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 1:42 AM To: detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement Support. Ethan. -----Original Message----- From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Romascanu, Dan (= Dan) Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 8:52 AM To: Norman Finn (nfinn); Lou Berger; detnet@ietf.org Cc: DetNet Chairs Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement Support.=20 Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Norman Finn > (nfinn) > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 5:50 PM > To: Lou Berger; detnet@ietf.org > Cc: DetNet Chairs > Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-=20 > statement >=20 > Support >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet on behalf of Lou Berger=20 > > Date: Friday, March 18, 2016 at 16:16 PM > To: "detnet@ietf.org" > Cc: DetNet Chairs > Subject: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement >=20 > >All, > > > >This is start of a two week poll on making > >draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement-05 a working group document. > Please > >send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not support". > >If indicating no, please state your reservations with the document. =20 > >If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd like to see=20 > >addressed once the document is a WG document. > > > >The poll ends April 1, 2016 > > > >Thanks, > > > >Lou and Pat _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Mon Mar 21 19:11:56 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF41C12D644 for ; 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Mon, 21 Mar 2016 19:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.28.11.195 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 19:11:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <56EC8C60.8060308@labn.net> <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA75198957@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> <40b31c7fb9b4438896dff90de9f0e918@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 23:11:50 -0300 Message-ID: From: "Prof. Diego Dujovne" To: "detnet@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b86dcb47a500d052e99bcc5 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Fwd: WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 02:11:55 -0000 --047d7b86dcb47a500d052e99bcc5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Prof. Diego Dujovne Date: 2016-03-21 23:11 GMT-03:00 Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement To: zhayiyong support Diego 2016-03-21 23:03 GMT-03:00 zhayiyong : > Support. > > Yiyong > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Grossman, > Ethan A. > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 1:42 AM > To: detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statemen= t > > Support. > Ethan. > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Romascanu, Dan > (Dan) > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 8:52 AM > To: Norman Finn (nfinn); Lou Berger; detnet@ietf.org > Cc: DetNet Chairs > Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statemen= t > > Support. > > Dan > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Norman Finn > > (nfinn) > > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 5:50 PM > > To: Lou Berger; detnet@ietf.org > > Cc: DetNet Chairs > > Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem- > > statement > > > > Support > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: detnet on behalf of Lou Berger > > > > Date: Friday, March 18, 2016 at 16:16 PM > > To: "detnet@ietf.org" > > Cc: DetNet Chairs > > Subject: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement > > > > >All, > > > > > >This is start of a two week poll on making > > >draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement-05 a working group document. > > Please > > >send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not support"= . > > >If indicating no, please state your reservations with the document. > > >If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd like to see > > >addressed once the document is a WG document. > > > > > >The poll ends April 1, 2016 > > > > > >Thanks, > > > > > >Lou and Pat > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --=20 DIEGO DUJOVNE Acad=C3=A9mico Escuela de Ingenier=C3=ADa en Inform=C3=A1tica y Telecomunic= aciones Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa UDP www.ingenieria.udp.cl (56 2) 676 8125 --=20 DIEGO DUJOVNE Acad=C3=A9mico Escuela de Ingenier=C3=ADa en Inform=C3=A1tica y Telecomunic= aciones Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa UDP www.ingenieria.udp.cl (56 2) 676 8125 --047d7b86dcb47a500d052e99bcc5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

---------- Forwarded messag= e ----------
From: Prof. Diego Dujovne= <diego.d= ujovne@mail.udp.cl>
Date: 2016-03-21 23:11 GMT-03:00
Su= bject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statementTo: zhayiyong <zhayiyong@huawei= .com>


support

Diego

2016-03-21 23:03 GMT-03:00 zhayiyong <zhayiyong@huawei.com= >:
Support.

Yiyong

-----Original Message-----
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Grossman, Ethan A.
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 1:42 AM
To: detnet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement<= br>
Support.
Ethan.

-----Original Message-----
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 8:52 AM
To: Norman Finn (nfinn); Lou Berger; detnet@ietf.org
Cc: DetNet Chairs
Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement<= br>
Support.

Dan


> -----Original Message-----
> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Norman Finn
> (nfinn)
> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 5:50 PM
> To: Lou Berger; d= etnet@ietf.org
> Cc: DetNet Chairs
> Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-
> statement
>
> Support
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Lou Berger
> <lberger@labn= .net>
> Date: Friday, March 18, 2016 at 16:16 PM
> To: "detnet@= ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>
> Cc: DetNet Chairs <detnet-chairs@ietf.org>
> Subject: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement=
>
> >All,
> >
> >This is start of a two week poll on making
> >draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement-05 a working group document. > Please
> >send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "= ;no/do not support".
> >If indicating no, please state your reservations with the document= .
> >If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd like t= o see
> >addressed once the document is a WG document.
> >
> >The poll ends April 1, 2016
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Lou and Pat

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet



--
DIEGO DUJOVNE
Acad= =C3=A9mico Escuela de Ingenier=C3=ADa en Inform=C3=A1tica y Telecomunicacio= nes
Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa UDP
www.ingenieria.udp.cl
(56 2) 676 8125
<= /div>



--
DIEGO= DUJOVNE
Acad=C3=A9mico Escuela de Ingenier=C3=ADa en Inform=C3=A1tica y= Telecomunicaciones
Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa UDP
www.ingenieria.udp.cl
(56 = 2) 676 8125
--047d7b86dcb47a500d052e99bcc5-- From nobody Mon Mar 21 19:16:39 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E36612D614; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 19:16:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GwA2bod32bDC; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 19:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4EEDC12D517; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 19:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CGK67024; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 02:16:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SZXEMA411-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.70) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.130) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 02:16:06 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA506-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.160]) by szxema411-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 10:15:57 +0800 From: Jiangyuanlong To: "scsn@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Problem statements and a gap analysis for the SCSN Thread-Index: AdGD4MEyyJAqphtfQRi3wBsnaxceNQ== Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 02:15:57 +0000 Message-ID: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B9167DB13@szxema506-mbs.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.66.76.118] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020206.56F0AAFE.0109, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.160, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: d996e9e8792beb4114374e52d6b892e3 Archived-At: Cc: "brian@innovationslab.net" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "tictoc@ietf.org" , Karen O'Donoghue Subject: [Detnet] Problem statements and a gap analysis for the SCSN X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 02:16:35 -0000 Hi all, During the IETF 94th meeting, we presented "Problem Statements of Scalable = Synchronization Networks" (draft-hjxl-ssn-ps-00) in the NTP/TICTOC joint se= ssion. Brian said that more analysis is needed and a BoF may also be needed for th= is topic. Thus, we updated the I-D to a new version: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hjxl-scsn-ps-00 And provided an initial gap analysis for the SCSN: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-scsn-gap-analysis-00 We hope to see more inputs to the topic and comments to these documents. Best regards, Yuanlong From nobody Mon Mar 21 22:36:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D364912D55E for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 22:35:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LubsjACSZ2rJ for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 22:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 100B612D532 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 22:35:56 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f79246d00000788a-a3-56f0d9bb3733 Received: from ESESSHC015.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.63]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id AF.BC.30858.BB9D0F65; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 06:35:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB103.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.157]) by ESESSHC015.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.63]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 06:35:41 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Varga_A?= To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement Thread-Index: AQHRgWxJAXYkdkGFd0ywAgDtKReNyZ9j/yIAgAAAZYCAAB7rgIAA1/Ng Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 05:35:40 +0000 Message-ID: <3002A87EA61E0A4DB56546AC16A0D5171EF4C87A@ESESSMB103.ericsson.se> References: <56EC8C60.8060308@labn.net> <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA75198957@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> <40b31c7fb9b4438896dff90de9f0e918@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> In-Reply-To: <40b31c7fb9b4438896dff90de9f0e918@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.149] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrMLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7ve7umx/CDLb847P4/Wk2iwOjx5Il P5kCGKO4bFJSczLLUov07RK4Mu6ueMNe8Ia/YtOGRYwNjHN5uxg5OSQETCT+bH7BBGGLSVy4 t56ti5GLQ0jgMKPEh1MnWSGcJYwSM/5OYAOpYhNwlfjc8RDMFhFQl2h7c40RxBYW8JKYvvwy excjB1DcW2LJ8kKIEjeJp5tuMIPYLAKqEtsvPWIHsXkFfCVu3mljgZh/llFi6v8/YHM4gea/ 6p7FCmIzAl30/dQasOuYBcQlbj2ZD3WpgMSSPeeZIWxRiZeP/7FC2EoSaw9vZ4Go15O4MXUK G4StLbFs4WtmiMWCEidnPmGZwCg6C8nYWUhaZiFpmYWkZQEjyypG0eLU4qTcdCMjvdSizOTi 4vw8vbzUkk2MwKg4uOW3wQ7Gl88dDzEKcDAq8fAabP0QJsSaWFZcmXuIUYKDWUmEN/kqUIg3 JbGyKrUoP76oNCe1+BCjNAeLkjgv66fLYUIC6YklqdmpqQWpRTBZJg5OqQbGjYYaHoUhHjuN u8Pbn3B6hnndnrot+rniu63nD4iyHXRrX7ogbnLR9gsX9iaIMHG73Tz778W6+cmCau5fz+6z 0Wv+KnNdb3o4+5q/57uPtnffErV+flxJMEze5VJIncndKgn+4tXfm5IuuRwNOy3q8HF6zlXL lIauE0k/rk9p37qhxfbH/0OflViKMxINtZiLihMBpKwGEIYCAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 05:35:59 -0000 Support. Bala'zs -----Original Message----- From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Grossman, Ethan = A. Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 6:42 PM To: detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement Support. Ethan. -----Original Message----- From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Romascanu, Dan (= Dan) Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 8:52 AM To: Norman Finn (nfinn); Lou Berger; detnet@ietf.org Cc: DetNet Chairs Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement Support.=20 Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Norman Finn > (nfinn) > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 5:50 PM > To: Lou Berger; detnet@ietf.org > Cc: DetNet Chairs > Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-=20 > statement >=20 > Support >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet on behalf of Lou Berger=20 > > Date: Friday, March 18, 2016 at 16:16 PM > To: "detnet@ietf.org" > Cc: DetNet Chairs > Subject: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement >=20 > >All, > > > >This is start of a two week poll on making > >draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement-05 a working group document. > Please > >send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not support". > >If indicating no, please state your reservations with the document. =20 > >If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd like to see=20 > >addressed once the document is a WG document. > > > >The poll ends April 1, 2016 > > > >Thanks, > > > >Lou and Pat _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Tue Mar 22 02:42:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C04A312D166; 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Tue, 22 Mar 2016 09:42:51 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-014.cisco.com (64.101.220.154) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 05:42:49 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-014.cisco.com ([64.101.220.154]) by XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com ([64.101.220.154]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 05:42:50 -0400 From: "Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)" To: Lou Berger , DetNet WG Thread-Topic: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement Thread-Index: AQHRhB8yk9bJlUqbW0qG54dEo+jIdg== Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 09:42:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <56EC8C60.8060308@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <56EC8C60.8060308@labn.net> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.1.160122 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.49.80.28] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <7F503E6936BC7E499BD51CC51EA60524@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: DetNet Chairs Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 09:42:54 -0000 I support it. Patrick On 19/03/16 00:16, "detnet on behalf of Lou Berger" wrote: >All, > >This is start of a two week poll on making >draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement-05 a working group document. Please >send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not >support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the >document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd >like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. > >The poll ends April 1, 2016 > >Thanks, > >Lou and Pat > >_______________________________________________ >detnet mailing list >detnet@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Tue Mar 22 03:42:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FDAE12D7FB for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 03:42:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IsC9EFtKrGtE for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 03:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.iisc.ernet.in (relay.iisc.ernet.in [203.200.35.65]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B67DA12D101 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 03:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ece.iisc.ernet.in (mail.ece.iisc.ernet.in [10.32.1.10]) by relay.iisc.ernet.in (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17772AE1B1C; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 16:10:07 +0530 (IST) Received: from [10.32.14.64] ([10.32.14.64]) by ece.iisc.ernet.in (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id u2MAe71x005538; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 16:10:08 +0530 To: Lou Berger , DetNet WG References: <56EC8C60.8060308@labn.net> From: "S.V.R.Anand" Message-ID: <56F120F5.5030901@ece.iisc.ernet.in> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 16:09:49 +0530 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <56EC8C60.8060308@labn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-IISc-MailScanner-Information: Please contact nethelp@serc.iisc.in for more information X-IISc-MailScanner-ID: 17772AE1B1C.A3922 X-IISc-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-IISc-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.899, required 6.5, ALL_TRUSTED -1.00, BAYES_00 -1.90, NO_RDNS2 0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD -0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED 0.00, WINDOWS_7BITS 2.00) X-IISc-MailScanner-From: anand@ece.iisc.ernet.in MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1459248022.21484@YECbfygdL011FK2W21c5zA Archived-At: Cc: DetNet Chairs Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 10:42:01 -0000 Support Anand On Saturday 19 March 2016 04:46 AM, Lou Berger wrote: > All, > > This is start of a two week poll on making > draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement-05 a working group document. Please > send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not > support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the > document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd > like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. > > The poll ends April 1, 2016 > > Thanks, > > Lou and Pat > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > From nobody Tue Mar 22 10:54:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF74412D721 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 10:54:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RXwanBaQj2Xv for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 10:54:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from know-smtprelay-omc-2.server.virginmedia.net (know-smtprelay-omc-2.server.virginmedia.net [80.0.253.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6544A12D6BF for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 10:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.4.64] ([82.21.85.55]) by know-smtprelay-2-imp with bizsmtp id Z5uo1s00H1BdnUJ015uocc; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:54:48 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [82.21.85.55] X-Spam: 0 X-Authority: v=2.1 cv=Kc8vylsD c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=JBiNpTwF/IB2dYUHhn0UHw==:117 a=JBiNpTwF/IB2dYUHhn0UHw==:17 a=L9H7d07YOLsA:10 a=9cW_t1CCXrUA:10 a=s5jvgZ67dGcA:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=le6d79QuAAAA:8 a=Na0gb7fct3EIf3B_WZIA:9 a=UeHvPPkj5uCz3H7o:21 a=zhcK9NUTi2Q8vPBK:21 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) From: John Grant In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:54:48 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet-requirments-00.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:54:52 -0000 On 16 Mar 2016, at 09:10, zhayiyong wrote: > Hi Folks, >=20 > Here is a requirements draft for your reading pleasure. The name may = not be appropriated since the draft talks about some technical = consideration on data plane, control plane and modeling. We take this = one as an input for discussion.=20 In the last paragraph of 5.1 you say the communication between network = elements and the controller will add to latency. But the data packets = won't go via the controller, so it will only affect the time to set the = flow up, and in a large network it will probably be quicker to make the = routing decision in one place and then send the setup information to all = NEs simultaneously than for the NEs to set it up hop by hop. However, I think distributed control is still needed so that small = private networks can be truly plug-and-play. John Grant Nine Tiles, Cambridge, England +44 1223 862599 and +44 1223 511455 http://www.ninetiles.com From nobody Tue Mar 22 18:15:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B31912D5E6 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 18:15:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0ATxg1bfMpVi for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 18:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36FAF12D5A9 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 18:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CGL84154; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 01:15:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SZXEML425-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.180) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.130) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 01:15:48 +0000 Received: from SZXEML592-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.26]) by szxeml425-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.180]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:15:45 +0800 From: zhayiyong To: John Grant , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet-requirments-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRf2MpCt/V1eB/zkaJsRPj5nuiEZ9bx5bwgAl7YQCAAPxB0A== Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 01:15:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.61.15.96] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020202.56F1EE45.0192, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.26, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 01d4435e56f273475153a2370ac3089c Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet-requirments-00.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 01:15:55 -0000 Hi John, Thank you for your comments. Please find my responses in-line. Regards, Yiyong -----Original Message----- From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John Grant Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 1:55 AM To: detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet-req= uirments-00.txt On 16 Mar 2016, at 09:10, zhayiyong wrote: > Hi Folks, >=20 > Here is a requirements draft for your reading pleasure. The name may not = be appropriated since the draft talks about some technical consideration on= data plane, control plane and modeling. We take this one as an input for d= iscussion.=20 In the last paragraph of 5.1 you say the communication between network elem= ents and the controller will add to latency. But the data packets won't go = via the controller, so it will only affect the time to set the flow up, and= in a large network it will probably be quicker to make the routing decisio= n in one place and then send the setup information to all NEs simultaneousl= y than for the NEs to set it up hop by hop. [zyy] Sorry for the confusion here, of course the data packet will not go t= o controller if the switch contains a match rule. However, it is assumed th= at all time critical flows has been pre-configured via application layer. I= f there is a new flow comes in without a match rule, switch will send the p= acket to the controller requesting for an action to execute, which may be c= ritical for real time service.=20 However, I think distributed control is still needed so that small private = networks can be truly plug-and-play. [zyy] Agree. John Grant Nine Tiles, Cambridge, England +44 1223 862599 and +44 1223 511455 http://www.ninetiles.com _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Wed Mar 23 01:40:49 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CB6912D672 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 01:40:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k8Pi6HQUvRVi for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 01:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF64012D61C for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 01:40:46 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f79f86d00000400a-2e-56f2568b8d70 Received: from ESESSHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.24]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 59.E1.16394.B8652F65; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:40:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from [159.107.143.204] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.248.2; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:40:43 +0100 Message-ID: <56F2568B.8000505@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:40:43 +0100 From: =?windows-1252?Q?J=E1nos_Farkas?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <56EC8C60.8060308@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <56EC8C60.8060308@labn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrOLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7hG5P2Kcwg4mLWC1+f5rN4sDosWTJ T6YAxigum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujAlnpQsWsVZsnj6BuYFxHksXIyeHhICJxN2zV9ggbDGJC/fW A9lcHEIChxkl7n5/AeWsZZQ4Pvc3K0gVr4C2xPHWe2AdLAKqEv9fzAaz2QScJR5d7GUCsUUF oiSOLrnKDlEvKHFy5hOwbSICohInpnSCxYUFvCR2Pz4BZHMALVCXeHTHDSTMKaAh8WfiOzaQ MLOAvcSDrWUgYWYBeYntb+cwg9hCAmoSn94+ZJ/AKDALyYJZCB2zkHQsYGRexShanFqclJtu ZKyXWpSZXFycn6eXl1qyiREYfAe3/FbdwXj5jeMhRgEORiUe3oJzH8OEWBPLiitzDzFKcDAr ifBGqX4KE+JNSaysSi3Kjy8qzUktPsQozcGiJM7L+ulymJBAemJJanZqakFqEUyWiYNTqoHR qdlomdrym3MX1RQI82hrpLS+d9147qr0qy+Gpjs+KhfMEY0RcbrlPnPVuX8b8lNdiy4Fqujv LW+exvVxhem/m9EfRbfuiw64GvHp/9JUfvWvMXPNYuJ9esLftOlKTp0WYKsiw7jLUyDVJiGk dfmCL/72tpmvE+cI3Oq0SRKrfh7fqDtldpgSS3FGoqEWc1FxIgCOYjQhOgIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 08:40:49 -0000 Support Janos On 3/19/2016 12:16 AM, Lou Berger wrote: > All, > > This is start of a two week poll on making > draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement-05 a working group document. Please > send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not > support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the > document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd > like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. > > The poll ends April 1, 2016 > > Thanks, > > Lou and Pat > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > From nobody Wed Mar 23 02:57:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE1DA12DBC0 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 02:57:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S3wgjro6_g9Z for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 02:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2743E12DBBD for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 02:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CGM28576; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:57:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.33) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.93) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:57:21 +0000 Received: from NKGEML513-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.56]) by nkgeml402-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 17:57:18 +0800 From: "Zhuangyan (Yan)" To: =?gb2312?B?Sqiibm9zIEZhcmthcw==?= , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-finn-detnet-problem-statement Thread-Index: AQHRgWxMmIHJj3e3eEWsYh1R633V459mNmqAgACGT9A= Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:57:18 +0000 Message-ID: <9B4BC45FDEDDD84F813E9E4A5BAF8785941DDDAE@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <56EC8C60.8060308@labn.net> <56F2568B.8000505@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <56F2568B.8000505@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.170.230] Content-Type: text/plain; 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charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) From: John Grant In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 11:14:35 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4DDD99B9-66F2-4DA3-80CE-EDE2E8364A6A@ninetiles.com> References: To: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet-requirments-00.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 12:14:17 -0000 I don't think we can expect to be able to provide QoS guarantees such as = defined latency to a flow that hasn't been set up (including writing = match rules etc in all the switches through which it passes) by some = kind of control-plane negotiation between the application and the = network. Applications that need low latency can typically tolerate quite long = set-up times, e.g. a performer may need latency below 25 ms from = microphone via mixing desk to headphones but will be happy if the system = can set the connections up in less than a second. John Grant Nine Tiles, Cambridge, England +44 1223 862599 and +44 1223 511455 http://www.ninetiles.com On 23 Mar 2016, at 01:15, zhayiyong wrote: > Hi John, >=20 > Thank you for your comments. Please find my responses in-line. >=20 > Regards, > Yiyong > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John Grant > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 1:55 AM > To: detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for = draft-zha-detnet-requirments-00.txt >=20 >=20 > On 16 Mar 2016, at 09:10, zhayiyong wrote: >=20 >> Hi Folks, >>=20 >> Here is a requirements draft for your reading pleasure. The name may = not be appropriated since the draft talks about some technical = consideration on data plane, control plane and modeling. We take this = one as an input for discussion.=20 >=20 > In the last paragraph of 5.1 you say the communication between network = elements and the controller will add to latency. But the data packets = won't go via the controller, so it will only affect the time to set the = flow up, and in a large network it will probably be quicker to make the = routing decision in one place and then send the setup information to all = NEs simultaneously than for the NEs to set it up hop by hop. > [zyy] Sorry for the confusion here, of course the data packet will not = go to controller if the switch contains a match rule. However, it is = assumed that all time critical flows has been pre-configured via = application layer. If there is a new flow comes in without a match rule, = switch will send the packet to the controller requesting for an action = to execute, which may be critical for real time service.=20 >=20 > However, I think distributed control is still needed so that small = private networks can be truly plug-and-play. > [zyy] Agree. >=20 > John Grant > Nine Tiles, Cambridge, England > +44 1223 862599 and +44 1223 511455 > http://www.ninetiles.com From nobody Wed Mar 23 18:23:21 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F9C312DA77 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 18:23:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.23 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.23 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yi71vPMImzuo for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 18:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AA2812DA6D for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 18:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CLE27823; Thu, 24 Mar 2016 01:23:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SZXEML431-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.208) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.130) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 24 Mar 2016 01:23:12 +0000 Received: from SZXEML592-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.26]) by szxeml431-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.208]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 24 Mar 2016 09:23:06 +0800 From: zhayiyong To: John Grant , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet-requirments-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRf2MpCt/V1eB/zkaJsRPj5nuiEZ9bx5bwgAl7YQCAAPxB0IAAJkKAgAFv+vA= Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 01:23:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4DDD99B9-66F2-4DA3-80CE-EDE2E8364A6A@ninetiles.com> In-Reply-To: <4DDD99B9-66F2-4DA3-80CE-EDE2E8364A6A@ninetiles.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.61.15.96] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090205.56F34182.0102, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.26, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 1af2bc52af7876627ac20dfcb6379686 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet-requirments-00.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 01:23:19 -0000 Hi John, I agree with you on that some applications should expect pre-configuration = for delay guarantee service. In some cases, such as sensor network, the sen= sor get the data and send it right away with a delay requirement. And there= are tons of sensors so it is not easy to setup low latency paths for each = on I agree with you that we can focus on cases with pre-configuration first. = =20 Regards, Yiyong -----Original Message----- From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John Grant Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 7:15 PM To: detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet-req= uirments-00.txt I don't think we can expect to be able to provide QoS guarantees such as de= fined latency to a flow that hasn't been set up (including writing match ru= les etc in all the switches through which it passes) by some kind of contro= l-plane negotiation between the application and the network. Applications that need low latency can typically tolerate quite long set-up= times, e.g. a performer may need latency below 25 ms from microphone via m= ixing desk to headphones but will be happy if the system can set the connec= tions up in less than a second. John Grant Nine Tiles, Cambridge, England +44 1223 862599 and +44 1223 511455 http://www.ninetiles.com On 23 Mar 2016, at 01:15, zhayiyong wrote: > Hi John, >=20 > Thank you for your comments. Please find my responses in-line. >=20 > Regards, > Yiyong > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John Grant > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 1:55 AM > To: detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet-r= equirments-00.txt >=20 >=20 > On 16 Mar 2016, at 09:10, zhayiyong wrote: >=20 >> Hi Folks, >>=20 >> Here is a requirements draft for your reading pleasure. The name may not= be appropriated since the draft talks about some technical consideration o= n data plane, control plane and modeling. We take this one as an input for = discussion.=20 >=20 > In the last paragraph of 5.1 you say the communication between network el= ements and the controller will add to latency. But the data packets won't g= o via the controller, so it will only affect the time to set the flow up, a= nd in a large network it will probably be quicker to make the routing decis= ion in one place and then send the setup information to all NEs simultaneou= sly than for the NEs to set it up hop by hop. > [zyy] Sorry for the confusion here, of course the data packet will not go= to controller if the switch contains a match rule. However, it is assumed = that all time critical flows has been pre-configured via application layer.= If there is a new flow comes in without a match rule, switch will send the= packet to the controller requesting for an action to execute, which may be= critical for real time service.=20 >=20 > However, I think distributed control is still needed so that small privat= e networks can be truly plug-and-play. > [zyy] Agree. >=20 > John Grant > Nine Tiles, Cambridge, England > +44 1223 862599 and +44 1223 511455 > http://www.ninetiles.com _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Wed Mar 23 21:46:06 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F53812D587 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:46:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.621 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.621 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8j-p0kR0xUD9 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:46:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com (mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com [67.231.152.235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8823312D1E6 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:40:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0000695.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.15.0.59/8.15.0.59) with SMTP id u2O4eCjl018935; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:40:12 -0700 Received: from dlb-xmrpw02.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.182.43]) by mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 21v7fv07ty-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:40:12 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XMRPW02.dolby.net (10.213.22.205) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.266.1; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:40:11 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1076.9; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:40:09 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1076.000; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:40:09 -0700 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: zhayiyong , John Grant , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet-requirments-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRhGPzY+kVbiPfPkCTuErW2fk5LJ9mr5wAgACnUYCAAO0RgP//v6Eg Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 04:40:09 +0000 Message-ID: <0d849c2b8a374de082ce9526708f2740@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> References: <4DDD99B9-66F2-4DA3-80CE-EDE2E8364A6A@ninetiles.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.233.7.60] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.15.96, 1.0.3, 0.0.0000 definitions=2016-03-24_02:2016-03-24,2016-03-24,1970-01-01 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet-requirments-00.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 04:46:05 -0000 Hi John, Just to note that for some Pro Audio use cases a "long" setup time (like on= e second) for a stream may be acceptable, however in other use cases such a= s industrial it may be less acceptable, for example the case of bringing up= a replacement device for one that has failed in a time-critical system suc= h as a Utilities network. Not that there aren't ways to ensure a determinis= tic "hot swap", I'm just saying.=20 Ethan. -----Original Message----- From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of zhayiyong Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 6:23 PM To: John Grant; detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet-req= uirments-00.txt Hi John, I agree with you on that some applications should expect pre-configuration = for delay guarantee service. In some cases, such as sensor network, the sen= sor get the data and send it right away with a delay requirement. And there= are tons of sensors so it is not easy to setup low latency paths for each = on I agree with you that we can focus on cases with pre-configuration first= . =20 Regards, Yiyong -----Original Message----- From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John Grant Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 7:15 PM To: detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet-req= uirments-00.txt I don't think we can expect to be able to provide QoS guarantees such as de= fined latency to a flow that hasn't been set up (including writing match ru= les etc in all the switches through which it passes) by some kind of contro= l-plane negotiation between the application and the network. Applications that need low latency can typically tolerate quite long set-up= times, e.g. a performer may need latency below 25 ms from microphone via m= ixing desk to headphones but will be happy if the system can set the connec= tions up in less than a second. John Grant Nine Tiles, Cambridge, England +44 1223 862599 and +44 1223 511455 http://www.ninetiles.com On 23 Mar 2016, at 01:15, zhayiyong wrote: > Hi John, >=20 > Thank you for your comments. Please find my responses in-line. >=20 > Regards, > Yiyong > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John Grant > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 1:55 AM > To: detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for=20 > draft-zha-detnet-requirments-00.txt >=20 >=20 > On 16 Mar 2016, at 09:10, zhayiyong wrote: >=20 >> Hi Folks, >>=20 >> Here is a requirements draft for your reading pleasure. The name may not= be appropriated since the draft talks about some technical consideration o= n data plane, control plane and modeling. We take this one as an input for = discussion.=20 >=20 > In the last paragraph of 5.1 you say the communication between network el= ements and the controller will add to latency. But the data packets won't g= o via the controller, so it will only affect the time to set the flow up, a= nd in a large network it will probably be quicker to make the routing decis= ion in one place and then send the setup information to all NEs simultaneou= sly than for the NEs to set it up hop by hop. > [zyy] Sorry for the confusion here, of course the data packet will not go= to controller if the switch contains a match rule. However, it is assumed = that all time critical flows has been pre-configured via application layer.= If there is a new flow comes in without a match rule, switch will send the= packet to the controller requesting for an action to execute, which may be= critical for real time service.=20 >=20 > However, I think distributed control is still needed so that small privat= e networks can be truly plug-and-play. > [zyy] Agree. >=20 > John Grant > Nine Tiles, Cambridge, England > +44 1223 862599 and +44 1223 511455 > http://www.ninetiles.com _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Thu Mar 24 02:32:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B7A412D61C for ; 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Thu, 24 Mar 2016 09:32:06 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 24 Mar 2016 04:32:05 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Thu, 24 Mar 2016 04:32:05 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "Grossman, Ethan A." , zhayiyong , John Grant , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet-requirments-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRhWvFPNPkYJl2XUS4qQsunaFWw59oV3eA///5h0A= Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 09:31:59 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 09:31:37 +0000 Message-ID: <4197fd02bd3c4f9ca24a3135701c59ae@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <4DDD99B9-66F2-4DA3-80CE-EDE2E8364A6A@ninetiles.com> <0d849c2b8a374de082ce9526708f2740@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> In-Reply-To: <0d849c2b8a374de082ce9526708f2740@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.106.191] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet-requirments-00.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 09:32:14 -0000 Hello Ethan: The requirements for Elimination and Replication should be such as to enabl= e hot swap for a device that is giving signs of weakness or has crashed, a= nd apparently they are. Clearly there's a high demand of the existing proto= cols (PRP/HSR) in environments where continuous connectivity is critical en= ough to justify physical redundancy. OTOH if a physical device is a single point of failure, and it is down, the= n I'm not sure one second makes a difference in the light of the whole repl= acement workflow. Cheers, Pascal > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Grossman, > Ethan A. > Sent: jeudi 24 mars 2016 05:40 > To: zhayiyong ; John Grant ; > detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet- > requirments-00.txt >=20 > Hi John, > Just to note that for some Pro Audio use cases a "long" setup time (like = one > second) for a stream may be acceptable, however in other use cases such a= s > industrial it may be less acceptable, for example the case of bringing up= a > replacement device for one that has failed in a time-critical system such= as a > Utilities network. Not that there aren't ways to ensure a deterministic "= hot > swap", I'm just saying. > Ethan. >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of zhayiyong > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 6:23 PM > To: John Grant; detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet- > requirments-00.txt >=20 > Hi John, >=20 > I agree with you on that some applications should expect pre-configuratio= n > for delay guarantee service. In some cases, such as sensor network, the > sensor get the data and send it right away with a delay requirement. And > there are tons of sensors so it is not easy to setup low latency paths fo= r each > on I agree with you that we can focus on cases with pre-configuration fir= st. >=20 > Regards, > Yiyong >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John Grant > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 7:15 PM > To: detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet- > requirments-00.txt >=20 > I don't think we can expect to be able to provide QoS guarantees such as > defined latency to a flow that hasn't been set up (including writing matc= h > rules etc in all the switches through which it passes) by some kind of co= ntrol- > plane negotiation between the application and the network. >=20 > Applications that need low latency can typically tolerate quite long set-= up > times, e.g. a performer may need latency below 25 ms from microphone via > mixing desk to headphones but will be happy if the system can set the > connections up in less than a second. >=20 > John Grant > Nine Tiles, Cambridge, England > +44 1223 862599 and +44 1223 511455 > http://www.ninetiles.com >=20 >=20 > On 23 Mar 2016, at 01:15, zhayiyong wrote: >=20 > > Hi John, > > > > Thank you for your comments. Please find my responses in-line. > > > > Regards, > > Yiyong > > -----Original Message----- > > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John Grant > > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 1:55 AM > > To: detnet@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for > > draft-zha-detnet-requirments-00.txt > > > > > > On 16 Mar 2016, at 09:10, zhayiyong wrote: > > > >> Hi Folks, > >> > >> Here is a requirements draft for your reading pleasure. The name may n= ot > be appropriated since the draft talks about some technical consideration = on > data plane, control plane and modeling. We take this one as an input for > discussion. > > > > In the last paragraph of 5.1 you say the communication between network > elements and the controller will add to latency. But the data packets won= 't > go via the controller, so it will only affect the time to set the flow up= , and in > a large network it will probably be quicker to make the routing decision = in > one place and then send the setup information to all NEs simultaneously > than for the NEs to set it up hop by hop. > > [zyy] Sorry for the confusion here, of course the data packet will not = go to > controller if the switch contains a match rule. However, it is assumed th= at all > time critical flows has been pre-configured via application layer. If the= re is a > new flow comes in without a match rule, switch will send the packet to th= e > controller requesting for an action to execute, which may be critical for= real > time service. > > > > However, I think distributed control is still needed so that small priv= ate > networks can be truly plug-and-play. > > [zyy] Agree. > > > > John Grant > > Nine Tiles, Cambridge, England > > +44 1223 862599 and +44 1223 511455 > > http://www.ninetiles.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >=20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >=20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Thu Mar 24 15:16:53 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 023DE12D865 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2016 15:16:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.621 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.621 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fkKvSAZyB9py for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2016 15:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com [67.231.144.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0458E12D632 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2016 15:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0000439.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.15.0.59/8.15.0.59) with SMTP id u2OMFb1W026043; Thu, 24 Mar 2016 15:16:42 -0700 Received: from dlb-xmrpw01.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.182.43]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 21u6dr6fgx-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 24 Mar 2016 15:16:42 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XMRPW01.dolby.net (10.213.22.204) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.266.1; Thu, 24 Mar 2016 15:16:41 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1076.9; Thu, 24 Mar 2016 15:16:39 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1076.000; Thu, 24 Mar 2016 15:16:39 -0700 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , zhayiyong , John Grant , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet-requirments-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRhGPzY+kVbiPfPkCTuErW2fk5LJ9mr5wAgACnUYCAAO0RgP//v6EggADI+ICAAGA7kA== Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 22:16:39 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4DDD99B9-66F2-4DA3-80CE-EDE2E8364A6A@ninetiles.com> <0d849c2b8a374de082ce9526708f2740@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> <4197fd02bd3c4f9ca24a3135701c59ae@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4197fd02bd3c4f9ca24a3135701c59ae@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.233.7.60] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.15.96, 1.0.3, 0.0.0000 definitions=2016-03-24_08:2016-03-24,2016-03-24,1970-01-01 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet-requirments-00.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 22:16:52 -0000 Duly noted, thanks Pascal. Ethan. -----Original Message----- From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2016 2:32 AM To: Grossman, Ethan A.; zhayiyong; John Grant; detnet@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zha-detnet-req= uirments-00.txt Hello Ethan: The requirements for Elimination and Replication should be such as to enabl= e hot swap for a device that is giving signs of weakness or has crashed, a= nd apparently they are. Clearly there's a high demand of the existing proto= cols (PRP/HSR) in environments where continuous connectivity is critical en= ough to justify physical redundancy. OTOH if a physical device is a single point of failure, and it is down, the= n I'm not sure one second makes a difference in the light of the whole repl= acement workflow. Cheers, Pascal > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Grossman,=20 > Ethan A. > Sent: jeudi 24 mars 2016 05:40 > To: zhayiyong ; John Grant ;=20 > detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for=20 > draft-zha-detnet- requirments-00.txt >=20 > Hi John, > Just to note that for some Pro Audio use cases a "long" setup time=20 > (like one > second) for a stream may be acceptable, however in other use cases=20 > such as industrial it may be less acceptable, for example the case of=20 > bringing up a replacement device for one that has failed in a=20 > time-critical system such as a Utilities network. Not that there=20 > aren't ways to ensure a deterministic "hot swap", I'm just saying. > Ethan. >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of zhayiyong > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 6:23 PM > To: John Grant; detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for=20 > draft-zha-detnet- requirments-00.txt >=20 > Hi John, >=20 > I agree with you on that some applications should expect=20 > pre-configuration for delay guarantee service. In some cases, such as=20 > sensor network, the sensor get the data and send it right away with a=20 > delay requirement. And there are tons of sensors so it is not easy to=20 > setup low latency paths for each on I agree with you that we can focus on= cases with pre-configuration first. >=20 > Regards, > Yiyong >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John Grant > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 7:15 PM > To: detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for=20 > draft-zha-detnet- requirments-00.txt >=20 > I don't think we can expect to be able to provide QoS guarantees such=20 > as defined latency to a flow that hasn't been set up (including=20 > writing match rules etc in all the switches through which it passes)=20 > by some kind of control- plane negotiation between the application and th= e network. >=20 > Applications that need low latency can typically tolerate quite long=20 > set-up times, e.g. a performer may need latency below 25 ms from=20 > microphone via mixing desk to headphones but will be happy if the=20 > system can set the connections up in less than a second. >=20 > John Grant > Nine Tiles, Cambridge, England > +44 1223 862599 and +44 1223 511455 > http://www.ninetiles.com >=20 >=20 > On 23 Mar 2016, at 01:15, zhayiyong wrote: >=20 > > Hi John, > > > > Thank you for your comments. Please find my responses in-line. > > > > Regards, > > Yiyong > > -----Original Message----- > > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John=20 > > Grant > > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 1:55 AM > > To: detnet@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for=20 > > draft-zha-detnet-requirments-00.txt > > > > > > On 16 Mar 2016, at 09:10, zhayiyong wrote: > > > >> Hi Folks, > >> > >> Here is a requirements draft for your reading pleasure. The name=20 > >> may not > be appropriated since the draft talks about some technical=20 > consideration on data plane, control plane and modeling. We take this=20 > one as an input for discussion. > > > > In the last paragraph of 5.1 you say the communication between=20 > > network > elements and the controller will add to latency. But the data packets=20 > won't go via the controller, so it will only affect the time to set=20 > the flow up, and in a large network it will probably be quicker to=20 > make the routing decision in one place and then send the setup=20 > information to all NEs simultaneously than for the NEs to set it up hop b= y hop. > > [zyy] Sorry for the confusion here, of course the data packet will=20 > > not go to > controller if the switch contains a match rule. However, it is assumed=20 > that all time critical flows has been pre-configured via application=20 > layer. If there is a new flow comes in without a match rule, switch=20 > will send the packet to the controller requesting for an action to=20 > execute, which may be critical for real time service. > > > > However, I think distributed control is still needed so that small=20 > > private > networks can be truly plug-and-play. > > [zyy] Agree. > > > > John Grant > > Nine Tiles, Cambridge, England > > +44 1223 862599 and +44 1223 511455 > > http://www.ninetiles.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >=20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >=20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Tue Mar 29 12:49:53 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2D3312DB7F for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 12:49:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K75tzUd19C_v for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 12:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com (mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com [67.231.152.235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DE2D12E3F4 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 12:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0000695.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.15.0.59/8.15.0.59) with SMTP id u2TJ9D9H014392 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 12:13:21 -0700 Received: from dlb-xmrpw01.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.182.43]) by mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 21yxwa04bb-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 12:13:21 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XMRPW01.dolby.net (10.213.22.204) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.266.1; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 12:13:20 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1076.9; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 12:13:19 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1076.000; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 12:13:19 -0700 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: DetNet Use Cases - Starting the "what is in scope for DetNet" discussion Thread-Index: AdGJ3F8AJHD1Mu2UTQqp+WJGhTFDNg== Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 19:13:18 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.233.7.60] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_cdaaa2697acb40b2bae07943f7f82907DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.15.96, 1.0.3, 0.0.0000 definitions=2016-03-29_07:2016-03-29,2016-03-29,1970-01-01 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases - Starting the "what is in scope for DetNet" discussion X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 19:49:52 -0000 --_000_cdaaa2697acb40b2bae07943f7f82907DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Folks, I claim that we have brought the DetNet Use Cases draft up to a state where= I can say with a straight face "please read this document, it won't hurt y= ou". So if you haven't already done so, please look it over. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-09 Moving on to the next step, we need to start the discussion on which aspect= s of the use cases will be within scope of the DetNet work. Or, perhaps it = is easier to enumerate which ones are not in scope, at least for a start. The most obvious first item to decide on is requests to have DetNet work on= the open Internet - I think we're pretty clear that that is "not in scope"= because our architecture depends on there being "centralized control" (whi= ch may be distributed among multiple network entities, but which together c= onstitute a single point of control). I have also heard this phrased as "co= rporate networks". Do we agree on this? Another example is timekeeping - this will be specified by other existing m= eans, right? The only explicit DetNet Ask for this is in M2M as "Precise ti= me synchronization accuracy (1us)" and I think the intent (as in other use = cases) is that the DetNet Ask is for a way to specify the required accuracy= , not how to achieve that accuracy. Anyone else see anything that might not be in scope? I plan to ask this que= stion in the Use Cases part of the IETF session, so if you have any thought= s please send them to the list (or if that doesn't happen, bring them to th= e live discussion). Thanks, Your faithful Use Cases Editor, Ethan. --_000_cdaaa2697acb40b2bae07943f7f82907DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Folks,
 
I claim that we have brought the DetNet Use Cases draft up to a state = where I can say with a straight face “please read this document, it w= on’t hurt you”. So if you haven’t already done so, please= look it over.
 
 
Moving on to the next step, we need to start the discussion on which a= spects of the use cases will be within scope of the DetNet work. Or, perhap= s it is easier to enumerate which ones are not in scope, at least fo= r a start.
 
The most obvious first item to decide on is requests to have DetNet wo= rk on the open Internet – I think we’re pretty clear that that = is “not in scope” because our architecture depends on there bei= ng “centralized control” (which may be distributed among multiple network entities, but which together constitute a single point of = control). I have also heard this phrased as “corporate networks”= ;. Do we agree on this?
 
Another example is timekeeping – this will be specified by other= existing means, right? The only explicit DetNet Ask for this is in M2M as = “Precise time synchronization accuracy (1us)” and I think the i= ntent (as in other use cases) is that the DetNet Ask is for a way to specify the required accuracy, not how to achieve that accu= racy.
 
Anyone else see anything that might not be in scope? I plan to ask thi= s question in the Use Cases part of the IETF session, so if you have any th= oughts please send them to the list (or if that doesn’t happen, bring= them to the live discussion).
 
Thanks,
Your faithful Use Cases Editor,
Ethan.
 
 
 
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87ba1f9a-44cd-43a6-b008-6fdb45a5204e X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN1PR04MB421 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases - Starting the "what is in scope for DetNet" discussion X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 23:38:42 -0000 SSByYXJlbHkgZGlzYWdyZWUgd2l0aCBOb3JtLCBidXQgb24gdGhpcyBwb2ludCBJJ2xsIGhhdmUg dG8gcXVpYmJsZSBhIGJpdC4NCg0KSSBhZ3JlZSB0aGF0IHdlIGRvbid0IG5lZWQgRGV0TmV0IHRv IHNwZWNpZnkgaG93IHRpbWUgc3luYyBpcyBhY2NvbXBsaXNoZWQuIFRoZXJlIGFyZSBwbGVudHkg b2YgSUVFRSAxNTg4IHRlY2huaXF1ZXMgKGFuZCBzaW1pbGFyKSBmb3IgdGhhdCBwdXJwb3NlLg0K DQpJIGFsc28gYWdyZWUgdGhhdCB3ZSBzaG91bGQgY29uY2VudHJhdGUgb24gcmVsaWFibGUsIG9u LXRpbWUgZGVsaXZlcnkgb2YgcGFja2V0cyAoaS5lLiB3b3JzdC1jYXNlIGxhdGVuY3kpLg0KDQpJ 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