From nobody Fri Nov 3 06:38:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98C3A13FAEF for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 06:38:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J885etmW2-WA for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 06:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [67.222.33.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2091B13FCD8 for ; 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bh=qYZPfpFGZCiw3i8pZ9HOX+d5CmI0f+YQs54vlfDYbZQ=; b=or+qD8X81/QokTP+viXmAr91xO OX8peB0eCJj4iDkcTY6s7k0EvIBJ9ZA6PI+TK2YfqfO07tqocgXZslsjxHl0ti2/2EO/+cuWGgUU9 fyBvA8IqB4uJGGY4mJLXAMpaR; Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:46444 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1eAcAf-003m7N-Og; Fri, 03 Nov 2017 07:38:05 -0600 To: DetNet WG Cc: DetNet Chairs From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <94189e8b-24fa-e055-02a8-54e43d25a7c4@labn.net> Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 09:38:03 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1eAcAf-003m7N-Og X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.86.101]:46444 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Draft Agenda Posted X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2017 13:38:16 -0000 As some may have noticed the draft agenda has been posted at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/agenda-100-detnet/ Please take a look and see if you see any errors.  Also if you intend to present remotely, please let the chairs know - you can confirm that your are listed as remote presenter at https://ietf100.conf.meetecho.com/list.php Cheers, Lou (and Pat) From nobody Mon Nov 6 13:59:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8202913FB8F for ; 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Mon, 06 Nov 2017 13:59:06 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW04.dolby.net (10.233.7.4) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 13:59:04 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 13:59:04 -0800 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: DetNet Security draft - Discussion of Next Steps Thread-Index: AdNXSi3uM2ooUWqoQ/mPfuYR0CJkSQ== Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 21:59:04 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.207.133.62] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_d7ec65ebf29c49f6b38e59839c422cb6DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-11-06_08:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Security draft - Discussion of Next Steps X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 21:59:09 -0000 --_000_d7ec65ebf29c49f6b38e59839c422cb6DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, The DetNet Security draft is now a WG draft, and we will doing an update pr= esentation at DetNet IETF 100. At that time we would also like to have some= discussion with the WG regarding direction for the draft, and to engage mo= re WG members in developing this draft. So if you have any interest in Secu= rity for DetNet, please come to the meeting with your ideas. As a starting = point for discussion, I have made the following list of topics. If you have= any thoughts on them, or other topics to suggest, please let us know (via = the list or in person). Thanks, Ethan. Ethan Grossman, Editor, DetNet Security draft ------------------------------------------------------------------ 1) DetNet Security is now a WG draft, so we need to transition from th= e "design team" mode to the "workgroup" mode. I don't know exactly how to d= o that. Our session is toward the end of the week, so we will also have tim= e to discuss this with folks in advance of the session; if anyone has thoug= hts on this topic and wants to meet up, please let us know. 2) The DetNet Security Design Team has expressed our current understan= ding of this topic in this draft, and we believe we are ready to engage wit= h the larger IETF security community to get more eyes on the issue. If anyo= ne can help us make these connections we would appreciate it. 3) Henrik reviewed RFC 3552 (Guidelines for Writing RFC Text on Securi= ty Considerations). My notes from his debriefing were: "We have basically c= overed the required material in our draft, however our document organizatio= n is somewhat different from what they prescribe. However, ours is a whole = draft, not just a section, and theirs seems to be more oriented toward web-= based applications, so it isn't a perfect fit for DetNet anyway. For now th= e plan is to keep our current organization unless we get strong guidance ot= herwise." So another goal could be to specifically ask IETF Security people= about whether they believe that we need to implement any more specific con= formance to RFC 3552 (or any other precedent) given the above analysis. 4) We have not yet incorporated any specifics related to our data plan= e or other architecture-specific decisions into the draft. 5) We don't yet have a concisely stated set of "requirements" for DetN= et Security - we have the collection of use case statements on security in = the Security draft appendix, and thus far our strategy has been to wait and= see if we are asked (e.g. by the IETF Security community) to develop a mor= e formal Requirements statement (against which the draft could be reviewed)= or whether the current understanding and documentation is sufficient. ------------------------------------------------------------------ --_000_d7ec65ebf29c49f6b38e59839c422cb6DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All,
The DetNet Security draft is now a WG draft, and we will doing an upda= te presentation at DetNet IETF 100. At that time we would also like to have= some discussion with the WG regarding direction for the draft, and to enga= ge more WG members in developing this draft. So if you have any interest in Security for DetNet, please come= to the meeting with your ideas. As a starting point for discussion, I have= made the following list of topics. If you have any thoughts on them, or ot= her topics to suggest, please let us know (via the list or in person).
Thanks,
Ethan.
Ethan Grossman, Editor, DetNet Security draft
------------------------------------------------------------------
  1. DetNet Security is now a WG draft, so we need to transition from the &#= 8220;design team” mode to the “workgroup” mode. I donR= 17;t know exactly how to do that. Our session is toward the end of the week= , so we will also have time to discuss this with folks in advance of the session; if anyone has thoughts on this topic and wants to meet up, = please let us know. 
  2. The DetNet Security Design Team has expr= essed our current understanding of this topic in this draft, and we believe= we are ready to engage with the larger IETF security community to get more= eyes on the issue. If anyone can help us make these connections we would appreciate it.
  3. Henrik reviewed RFC 3552 (Guidelines for W= riting RFC Text on Security Considerations). My notes from his debriefing w= ere: “We have basically covered the required material in our draft, h= owever our document organization is somewhat different from what they prescribe. However, ours is a whole draft, not just a section, and theirs s= eems to be more oriented toward web-based applications, so it isn’t a= perfect fit for DetNet anyway. For now the plan is to keep our current org= anization unless we get strong guidance otherwise.” So another goal could be to specifically ask IETF Securit= y people about whether they believe that we need to implement any more spec= ific conformance to RFC 3552 (or any other precedent) given the above analy= sis.
  4. We have not yet incorporated any specifics related to our dat= a plane or other architecture-specific decisions into the draft.
  5. W= e don’t yet have a concisely stated set of “requirements”= for DetNet Security – we have the collection of use case statements = on security in the Security draft appendix, and thus far our strategy has b= een to wait and see if we are asked (e.g. by the IETF Security community) to develop a more formal Requirements statement (agains= t which the draft could be reviewed) or whether the current understanding a= nd documentation is sufficient.
------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
 --_000_d7ec65ebf29c49f6b38e59839c422cb6DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_-- From nobody Tue Nov 7 16:11:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDCB7129B6F; Tue, 7 Nov 2017 16:11:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cNXgRxp1Wj74; Tue, 7 Nov 2017 16:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com (lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com [194.213.3.62]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB0CD129B1E; Tue, 7 Nov 2017 16:11:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.65 (EHLO dfwpml705-chm.exmail.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.65]) by lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BLK10425; Wed, 08 Nov 2017 00:11:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.1.143]) by dfwpml705-chm.exmail.huawei.com ([10.124.31.209]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Tue, 7 Nov 2017 16:11:06 -0800 From: Norman Finn To: Lou Berger , DetNet WG CC: DetNet Chairs Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Draft Agenda Posted Thread-Index: AQHTVKkJ5l6o8BAsR0yl7wwknTKqbaMJokaZ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 00:11:05 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE8B69@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> References: <94189e8b-24fa-e055-02a8-54e43d25a7c4@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <94189e8b-24fa-e055-02a8-54e43d25a7c4@labn.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.4.35] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020206.5A024BA1.0072, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.1.143, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 5ede5851b4c0961d9c899b21510320d4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Draft Agenda Posted X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2017 00:11:30 -0000 Lou,=0A= =0A= I'd like to get in about 3 slides -- no more than 10 minutes -- on draft-fi= nn-detnet-bounded-latency. I will include the latest news from 802.1 on th= is subject.=0A= =0A= Do you need anything on the architecture or problem statement drafts?=0A= =0A= -- Norm=0A= =0A= ________________________________________=0A= From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Lou Berger [lberger@lab= n.net]=0A= Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 6:38 AM=0A= To: DetNet WG=0A= Cc: DetNet Chairs=0A= Subject: [Detnet] Draft Agenda Posted=0A= =0A= As some may have noticed the draft agenda has been posted at=0A= =0A= https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/agenda-100-detnet/=0A= =0A= Please take a look and see if you see any errors. Also if you intend to=0A= present remotely, please let the chairs know - you can confirm that your=0A= are listed as remote presenter at https://ietf100.conf.meetecho.com/list.ph= p=0A= =0A= Cheers,=0A= =0A= Lou (and Pat)=0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= detnet mailing list=0A= detnet@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=0A= From nobody Tue Nov 7 19:52:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 615B212EB8B for ; Tue, 7 Nov 2017 19:52:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:References:Cc:To:From:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=EBPndyBe5lhoj7Uc0rF0nJWg7jVoD+zqdZ84drj4/3U=; b=ClfxvDve5hxooNsYETjFXRnZdA iYeiJhU3pYnZdHuyOEeeSNehcWGZ25BbbowWg22djY6eSk7sjfE6+nx0Z1tNyBA4jbdp50r+NEVOY mPRy3t/+eThl0pWzZTeDCiVUB; Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:39006 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1eCHPU-003GfL-7H; Tue, 07 Nov 2017 20:52:16 -0700 From: Lou Berger To: DetNet WG Cc: DetNet Chairs References: <94189e8b-24fa-e055-02a8-54e43d25a7c4@labn.net> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 22:52:12 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <94189e8b-24fa-e055-02a8-54e43d25a7c4@labn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1eCHPU-003GfL-7H X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.86.101]:39006 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 5 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Draft Agenda Posted X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2017 03:52:24 -0000 All,     An updated agenda has been posted: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/agenda-100-detnet/ Presenters,     Please note the new slot duration.  Also please send your slides to detnet-chairs@ietf.org by end of day Monday.   Thank you, Lou (and Pat) On 11/3/2017 9:38 AM, Lou Berger wrote: > As some may have noticed the draft agenda has been posted at > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/agenda-100-detnet/ > > Please take a look and see if you see any errors.  Also if you intend to > present remotely, please let the chairs know - you can confirm that your > are listed as remote presenter at https://ietf100.conf.meetecho.com/list.php > > Cheers, > > Lou (and Pat) > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Sat Nov 11 15:10:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F028128B8E for ; 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[31.133.148.55]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 15sm17910817pfm.158.2017.11.11.15.10.16 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 11 Nov 2017 15:10:16 -0800 (PST) To: detnet@ietf.org From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 23:09:54 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------AEF10650B8D42FCFB0C679E5" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 23:10:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AEF10650B8D42FCFB0C679E5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had some thoughts on how to look at replication and elimination. I have written them up in draft format, although whether I upload the draft or not is to be determined. However I though that there was more to the issue than a simple email would easily handle. However in in view of the uploading embago, and considering the shortness of the draft, I am posting it to the list so that it can be discussed. - Stewart --------------AEF10650B8D42FCFB0C679E5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; name="draft-bryant-detnet-rep-elim-00.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-bryant-detnet-rep-elim-00.txt" CgoKCkRldG5ldCBXb3JraW5nIEdyb3VwICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgIFMuIEJyeWFudApJbnRlcm5ldC1EcmFmdCAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBIdWF3ZWkKSW50ZW5kZWQgc3Rh dHVzOiBTdGFuZGFyZHMgVHJhY2sgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIE5vdmVtYmVyIDEx LCAyMDE3CkV4cGlyZXM6IE1heSAxNSwgMjAxOAoKCiAgICAgICAgUmVwbGljYXRpb24gYW5k IEVsaW1pbmF0aW9uIGluIERldGVybWluaXN0aWMgTmV0d29ya2luZwogICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgIGRyYWZ0LWJyeWFudC1kZXRuZXQtcmVwLWVsaW0tMDAKCkFic3RyYWN0CgogICBU aGUgZGVzY3JpcHRpb24gb2YgdGhlIHJlcGxpY2F0aW9uIGFuZCBlbGltaW5hdGlvbnMgZnVu 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amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mxl_G3IQOsil; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 04:00:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com [67.231.152.235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7635912941D; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 04:00:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0000695.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id vACBwVP2002167; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 03:59:59 -0800 Received: from dlb-xchpw04.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.187.124]) by mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2e6nuh0087-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 12 Nov 2017 03:59:59 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW04.dolby.net (10.233.7.4) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 03:59:57 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 03:59:57 -0800 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: "draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org" CC: Gary Weiner , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: DetNet Security Meet-Up Thread-Index: AdNbrQyrOiNW607HS5+tae3US/2RDQ== Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 11:59:57 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.233.7.60] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_a44dc0aa02604da68a42175348f3b745DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-11-12_03:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 12:00:03 -0000 --_000_a44dc0aa02604da68a42175348f3b745DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello DetNet Security draft authors, (and adding the DetNet list since we a= re now a WG draft and would like to include anyone who has any interest), Tal and I are here in Singapore and would like to know if any of the rest o= f you might be here in town and might want to meet up over lunch or dinner = (or something) to discuss DetNet security, e.g. next steps for the DetNet S= ecurity draft. If so, please reply and we can plan something. Thanks, Ethan. Ethan Grossman, DetNet Security Draft editor. --_000_a44dc0aa02604da68a42175348f3b745DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello DetNet Security draft authors, (and adding the DetNet list since= we are now a WG draft and would like to include anyone who has any interes= t),
Tal and I are here in Singapore and would like to know if any of the r= est of you might be here in town and might want to meet up over lunch or di= nner (or something) to discuss DetNet security, e.g. next steps for the Det= Net Security draft. If so, please reply and we can plan something.
Thanks,
Ethan.
Ethan Grossman, DetNet Security Draft editor.
 
 --_000_a44dc0aa02604da68a42175348f3b745DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_-- From nobody Sun Nov 12 15:28:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C1CF1205F0 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 15:28:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.713 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.713 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FAKE_REPLY_C=1.486, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hTkOhJIj8Sxh for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 15:28:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8524B1200C5 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 15:28:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FF2A58C4DC; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 00:28:28 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 5051EB0D164; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 00:28:28 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 00:28:28 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: stewart.bryant@gmail.com, detnet@ietf.org Message-ID: <20171112232828.GD19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 23:28:35 -0000 Hi Steart Thanks for this draft. I am quite interest to help co-author this further if there is interest by the WG in this type of work. I would very much hope there is, even though i would find this work most beneficial if it was targetted as a normative reference describing this forwarding model in a way that would allow it to be referenced by more IETF solutions than "just" DetNet (not to diminish DetNet any way ;-). The one example use case that is IMHO like DetNet missing a solid definition how to do this is exactly is the often as "live-life" described dual forwarding of IP multicast traffic in network devices: IMHO, IP multicast can actually help to bring down the price in products to support good live-live forwarding functions because in IP multicast this method would have applicability to more traffic than in unicast: In Unicast (e.g.: DetNet), the network cost is simply factor 2 in bandwidth (high level, there are arguments to bring down that perceived cost). In IP multicast it actually a cost-saving: Consider you loose a packet that would be replicated to 10,000 users. And you need to protect againsts that loss. All other approaches such as other forms of FEC or ARQ (retransmission) have a relatively higher cost of bandwidth and operations than live-live. Even though there are various vendor options to support live-live for multicast, to the best of my knowledge, there are no implementations where the replication/elimination (often called "merge" or "de-duplication") is performed by sequence numbers in network devices. But i have not tracked this for a few years across vendors. It has been demonstrated to be IMHO easily possible in HW forwarding planes with sufficiently intelligent HW forwarding planes as early as maybe 8..10 years back and should be easily be implementable in e.g.: P4 as an example. The only instance of IETF work related to this is IMHO RFC7431, but it does not include the actual sequence number based duplication/de-duplication but only resorts to deplication based on state based switchover. Something which is a common technique in netork such a pseudowire redundancy and others if i remember correctly. Doing sequence number based live-live has of course been the standard mechanism how our retirement savings are gambled with by the financial industry - since at least hmm.. 1997 i think: market data networks. No single packet must be lost in those networks and IP multicast solutions with live-live provided that now for 20 years. Therefore it is also long time well known how to enginer SP networks to support the dual-path transmission. But to the best of my knowledge, they leave the duplication/de-duplication all to the application side. The same is true for linear TV video, where SMPTE receiver functions do support this sequence number de-duplication as a standard function. And just leave the dual path transmission to network equipment. One transport layer definition for this is RFC7198. So, IMHO we are missing a simple, but solid definition of a network devices forwarding plane functionality to duplicate with sequence number insertion (or this may come from app side) and de-duplication based on sequence number. The standard behavior of those forwarding functions is IMHO best defined based on the visible parameter of its behavior at the operator side (e.g.: Yang model) because for any such high-value service you need to have some operational parameter such as measured partially-lost/fully-lost/late etc. packets, and a definition how to measure those pretty much requires a modelling of the underlying duplicate elimination model. Maybe we could even define this standard behavior via a reference P4 program. That could be fun ;-) To make it widely applicable, the specification should really only refer to application of this forwarding plane function to packet-flows identified by other means (aka: any other form of looking up/identifying packet flows) and sequence numbers at a defineable offset into packets. Therefore staying agnostic to any specific choosen encap to carry the sequence numer. L2TPv3, RTP, any form of other L2/MPS/etc. encap i don't know - does not matter. Of course we would need to have in the same or another draft at least one reference encap option that would allow to deploy a fully standardized version of this (MPLS is fine given where SPs stand today ;-)). Wrt to some of the statements in your document: - If the replication is also inserting sequence numbers it would also be a stateful operation. - duplicate transmission in itself is not a mean to counter congestion or make rate adaptation simpller (where rate adaptation is the IETF TSV requirement for reaction to congestion). See also RFC7198. Doing rate-adaptive traffic in live-live environments would be a cool reaearch topic IMHO, but not something DetNet or the multicast use cases would immediatel profit from. Aka: The right formulation would be that live-live can help in a variety of loss situations: - total path loss on one side (link, node, linecard, ... failure). - BER type issues: loss of packets due to physcial tranmission errors - not congestion based (very common in copper, but also WiFi). - burst accumulation into queues. I think it is this case you where thinking of, but i think thats not called (ongoing) congestion, aka: it does not require downspeeding/rate adaptation. But live in queue/buffer management becomes a lot easier if you have some headroom here through live-live. - I am not sure to what degree a definition would need to get into specific platform issues such as where/how to do these functions in a distributed fashion, e.g.: on ingres or egres and the like. As an example: BIER is also a very novel forwarding plane paradigm and all the initial platforms with asic acceleration we discussed BIER with where having quite some challenges figuring out how to do it, but that did not lead to any request to discuss/document any such device internals on the IETF drafts (now to become RFC). Aka: with that recent experience in mind i would stick to the external observable behavior, well define it (including above described operator interface/diagnostics as a key component), and then see what feedback we get. Cheers Toerless From nobody Sun Nov 12 16:50:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73B69126DEE for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 16:50:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X2bKE2jEVsMG for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 16:50:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from dggwg11-dlp.huawei.com (lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com [194.213.3.62]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11F4B126B72 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 16:50:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfwpml705-chm.exmail.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.65]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id E82B313C14E7C; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 00:49:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.1.143]) by dfwpml705-chm.exmail.huawei.com ([10.124.31.209]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 16:49:34 -0800 From: Norman Finn To: Toerless Eckert , "stewart.bryant@gmail.com" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination Thread-Index: AQHTW0JHwkohMRicPEubhRmXoLl3b6MR63oA//+OS0k= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 00:49:33 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9A80@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> References: , <20171112232828.GD19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <20171112232828.GD19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.4.35] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 00:50:02 -0000 Toerless,=0A= =0A= Who says that DetNet is unicast only?? The drafts haven't addressed this v= ery well, yet. But TSN has been multicast from Day 1. The DetNet data pla= ne will handle multicast. The trick is to realize, as TSN has, that packet= replication for reliability is *not* a multicast operation. I say it's no= t multicast, because the branches will criss-cross, and that's something th= at multicast doesn't do. The multicast trees spread out *after* the packet= replication. Those multicast paths are true trees, and the two (or more) = multicast trees take different routes to the same places.=0A= =0A= -- Norm=0A= ________________________________________=0A= From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Toerless Eckert [tte@cs= .fau.de]=0A= Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:28 PM=0A= To: stewart.bryant@gmail.com; detnet@ietf.org=0A= Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination=0A= =0A= Hi Steart=0A= =0A= Thanks for this draft. I am quite interest to help co-author this further= =0A= if there is interest by the WG in this type of work. I would very much=0A= hope there is, even though i would find this work most beneficial if=0A= it was targetted as a normative reference describing this forwarding=0A= model in a way that would allow it to be referenced by more IETF=0A= solutions than "just" DetNet (not to diminish DetNet any way ;-).=0A= =0A= The one example use case that is IMHO like DetNet missing a solid definitio= n=0A= how to do this is exactly is the often as "live-life" described dual forwar= ding=0A= of IP multicast traffic in network devices:=0A= =0A= IMHO, IP multicast can actually help to bring down the price in products=0A= to support good live-live forwarding functions because in IP multicast=0A= this method would have applicability to more traffic than in unicast:=0A= =0A= In Unicast (e.g.: DetNet), the network cost is simply factor 2 in bandwidth= =0A= (high level, there are arguments to bring down that perceived cost).=0A= In IP multicast it actually a cost-saving: Consider you loose a packet=0A= that would be replicated to 10,000 users. And you need to protect againsts= =0A= that loss. All other approaches such as other forms of FEC or ARQ (retransm= ission)=0A= have a relatively higher cost of bandwidth and operations than live-live.= =0A= =0A= Even though there are various vendor options to support live-live for multi= cast,=0A= to the best of my knowledge, there are no implementations where the=0A= replication/elimination (often called "merge" or "de-duplication") is perfo= rmed=0A= by sequence numbers in network devices. But i have not tracked this for=0A= a few years across vendors. It has been demonstrated to be IMHO easily=0A= possible in HW forwarding planes with sufficiently intelligent HW forwardin= g=0A= planes as early as maybe 8..10 years back and should be easily be implement= able=0A= in e.g.: P4 as an example. The only instance of IETF work related to=0A= this is IMHO RFC7431, but it does not include the actual sequence number=0A= based duplication/de-duplication but only resorts to deplication based=0A= on state based switchover. Something which is a common technique in netork= =0A= such a pseudowire redundancy and others if i remember correctly.=0A= =0A= Doing sequence number based live-live has of course been the standard=0A= mechanism how our retirement savings are gambled with by the financial=0A= industry - since at least hmm.. 1997 i think: market data networks. No=0A= single packet must be lost in those networks and IP multicast solutions=0A= with live-live provided that now for 20 years.=0A= =0A= Therefore it is also long time well known how to enginer SP networks=0A= to support the dual-path transmission. But to the best of my knowledge,=0A= they leave the duplication/de-duplication all to the application side.=0A= The same is true for linear TV video, where SMPTE receiver functions do=0A= support this sequence number de-duplication as a standard function.=0A= And just leave the dual path transmission to network equipment. One=0A= transport layer definition for this is RFC7198.=0A= =0A= So, IMHO we are missing a simple, but solid definition of a network=0A= devices forwarding plane functionality to duplicate with sequence=0A= number insertion (or this may come from app side) and de-duplication=0A= based on sequence number. The standard behavior of those forwarding=0A= functions is IMHO best defined based on the visible parameter=0A= of its behavior at the operator side (e.g.: Yang model) because=0A= for any such high-value service you need to have some operational=0A= parameter such as measured partially-lost/fully-lost/late etc. packets,=0A= and a definition how to measure those pretty much requires a modelling=0A= of the underlying duplicate elimination model. Maybe we could even=0A= define this standard behavior via a reference P4 program. That could=0A= be fun ;-)=0A= =0A= To make it widely applicable, the specification=0A= should really only refer to application of this forwarding plane function= =0A= to packet-flows identified by other means (aka: any other form of=0A= looking up/identifying packet flows) and sequence numbers at=0A= a defineable offset into packets. Therefore staying agnostic to=0A= any specific choosen encap to carry the sequence numer. L2TPv3, RTP,=0A= any form of other L2/MPS/etc. encap i don't know - does not matter.=0A= =0A= Of course we would need to have in the same or another draft at least=0A= one reference encap option that would allow to deploy a fully standardized= =0A= version of this (MPLS is fine given where SPs stand today ;-)).=0A= =0A= Wrt to some of the statements in your document:=0A= =0A= - If the replication is also inserting sequence numbers it would also=0A= be a stateful operation.=0A= =0A= - duplicate transmission in itself is not a mean to counter congestion=0A= or make rate adaptation simpller (where rate adaptation is the IETF=0A= TSV requirement for reaction to congestion). See also RFC7198.=0A= Doing rate-adaptive traffic in live-live environments would be=0A= a cool reaearch topic IMHO, but not something DetNet or the=0A= multicast use cases would immediatel profit from.=0A= =0A= Aka: The right formulation would be that live-live can help=0A= in a variety of loss situations:=0A= =0A= - total path loss on one side (link, node, linecard, ... failure).=0A= =0A= - BER type issues: loss of packets due to physcial tranmission=0A= errors - not congestion based (very common in copper, but also WiFi).= =0A= =0A= - burst accumulation into queues. I think it=0A= is this case you where thinking of, but i think thats not=0A= called (ongoing) congestion, aka: it does not require=0A= downspeeding/rate adaptation. But live in queue/buffer=0A= management becomes a lot easier if you have some headroom=0A= here through live-live.=0A= =0A= - I am not sure to what degree a definition would need to get into=0A= specific platform issues such as where/how to do these functions=0A= in a distributed fashion, e.g.: on ingres or egres and the like.=0A= As an example: BIER is also a very novel forwarding plane paradigm=0A= and all the initial platforms with asic acceleration we discussed=0A= BIER with where having quite some challenges figuring out how=0A= to do it, but that did not lead to any request to discuss/document=0A= any such device internals on the IETF drafts (now to become RFC).=0A= =0A= Aka: with that recent experience in mind i would stick to the=0A= external observable behavior, well define it (including above=0A= described operator interface/diagnostics as a key component),=0A= and then see what feedback we get.=0A= =0A= Cheers=0A= Toerless=0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= detnet mailing list=0A= detnet@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=0A= From nobody Sun Nov 12 16:52:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6F631201F2; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 16:52:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GPvH2mkrRPSc; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 16:52:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from dggwg11-dlp.huawei.com (lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com [194.213.3.62]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E4B21200C5; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 16:52:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from DFWPML706-CHM.exmail.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.65]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 5A684C3061DCB; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 00:52:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.1.143]) by DFWPML706-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([10.124.31.210]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 16:52:26 -0800 From: Norman Finn To: "Grossman, Ethan A." , "draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org" CC: Gary Weiner , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: DetNet Security Meet-Up Thread-Index: AdNbrQyrOiNW607HS5+tae3US/2RDQAbH8uJ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 00:52:25 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9AD2@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.4.35] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9AD2DFWPML704CHMexmai_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 00:52:56 -0000 --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9AD2DFWPML704CHMexmai_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, let's get together. Right now, any time Tuesday after lunch would be = fine. -- Norm ________________________________ From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:59 AM To: draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org Cc: Gary Weiner; detnet@ietf.org Subject: DetNet Security Meet-Up Hello DetNet Security draft authors, (and adding the DetNet list since we a= re now a WG draft and would like to include anyone who has any interest), Tal and I are here in Singapore and would like to know if any of the rest o= f you might be here in town and might want to meet up over lunch or dinner = (or something) to discuss DetNet security, e.g. next steps for the DetNet S= ecurity draft. If so, please reply and we can plan something. Thanks, Ethan. Ethan Grossman, DetNet Security Draft editor. --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9AD2DFWPML704CHMexmai_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, let's get together.  Right now, any time Tuesday after lun= ch would be fine.

-- Norm

From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.co= m]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:59 AM
To: draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org
Cc: Gary Weiner; detnet@ietf.org
Subject: DetNet Security Meet-Up

Hello DetNet Security draft authors, (and adding the DetNet list since= we are now a WG draft and would like to include anyone who has any interes= t),
Tal and I are here in Singapore and would like to know if any of the r= est of you might be here in town and might want to meet up over lunch or di= nner (or something) to discuss DetNet security, e.g. next steps for the Det= Net Security draft. If so, please reply and we can plan something.
Thanks,
Ethan.
Ethan Grossman, DetNet Security Draft editor.
 
--_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9AD2DFWPML704CHMexmai_-- From nobody Sun Nov 12 17:20:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CC7D126CB6 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 17:20:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5Z4OankF9j2N for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 17:20:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AD0A126B72 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 17:20:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 022BA58C4DC; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 02:19:59 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id DB134B0D168; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 02:19:58 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 02:19:58 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Norman Finn Cc: "stewart.bryant@gmail.com" , "detnet@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20171113011958.GI19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20171112232828.GD19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9A80@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9A80@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 01:20:05 -0000 Hi Norm, thanks for the note. Yepp, of course, I should have qualified my text not making it look as if i thought Detnet=unicast but with detnet even if unicast. In other words: in pre-detnet IP solutions, we discussed live-live for unicast but my impression was that it was never crucial enough to get done. With detnet the service criteria are so strict that that IMHO changes even for unicast. Cheers Toerless On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 12:49:33AM +0000, Norman Finn wrote: > Toerless, > > Who says that DetNet is unicast only?? The drafts haven't addressed this very well, yet. But TSN has been multicast from Day 1. The DetNet data plane will handle multicast. The trick is to realize, as TSN has, that packet replication for reliability is *not* a multicast operation. I say it's not multicast, because the branches will criss-cross, and that's something that multicast doesn't do. The multicast trees spread out *after* the packet replication. Those multicast paths are true trees, and the two (or more) multicast trees take different routes to the same places. > > -- Norm > ________________________________________ > From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Toerless Eckert [tte@cs.fau.de] > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:28 PM > To: stewart.bryant@gmail.com; detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination > > Hi Steart > > Thanks for this draft. I am quite interest to help co-author this further > if there is interest by the WG in this type of work. I would very much > hope there is, even though i would find this work most beneficial if > it was targetted as a normative reference describing this forwarding > model in a way that would allow it to be referenced by more IETF > solutions than "just" DetNet (not to diminish DetNet any way ;-). > > The one example use case that is IMHO like DetNet missing a solid definition > how to do this is exactly is the often as "live-life" described dual forwarding > of IP multicast traffic in network devices: > > IMHO, IP multicast can actually help to bring down the price in products > to support good live-live forwarding functions because in IP multicast > this method would have applicability to more traffic than in unicast: > > In Unicast (e.g.: DetNet), the network cost is simply factor 2 in bandwidth > (high level, there are arguments to bring down that perceived cost). > In IP multicast it actually a cost-saving: Consider you loose a packet > that would be replicated to 10,000 users. And you need to protect againsts > that loss. All other approaches such as other forms of FEC or ARQ (retransmission) > have a relatively higher cost of bandwidth and operations than live-live. > > Even though there are various vendor options to support live-live for multicast, > to the best of my knowledge, there are no implementations where the > replication/elimination (often called "merge" or "de-duplication") is performed > by sequence numbers in network devices. But i have not tracked this for > a few years across vendors. It has been demonstrated to be IMHO easily > possible in HW forwarding planes with sufficiently intelligent HW forwarding > planes as early as maybe 8..10 years back and should be easily be implementable > in e.g.: P4 as an example. The only instance of IETF work related to > this is IMHO RFC7431, but it does not include the actual sequence number > based duplication/de-duplication but only resorts to deplication based > on state based switchover. Something which is a common technique in netork > such a pseudowire redundancy and others if i remember correctly. > > Doing sequence number based live-live has of course been the standard > mechanism how our retirement savings are gambled with by the financial > industry - since at least hmm.. 1997 i think: market data networks. No > single packet must be lost in those networks and IP multicast solutions > with live-live provided that now for 20 years. > > Therefore it is also long time well known how to enginer SP networks > to support the dual-path transmission. But to the best of my knowledge, > they leave the duplication/de-duplication all to the application side. > The same is true for linear TV video, where SMPTE receiver functions do > support this sequence number de-duplication as a standard function. > And just leave the dual path transmission to network equipment. One > transport layer definition for this is RFC7198. > > So, IMHO we are missing a simple, but solid definition of a network > devices forwarding plane functionality to duplicate with sequence > number insertion (or this may come from app side) and de-duplication > based on sequence number. The standard behavior of those forwarding > functions is IMHO best defined based on the visible parameter > of its behavior at the operator side (e.g.: Yang model) because > for any such high-value service you need to have some operational > parameter such as measured partially-lost/fully-lost/late etc. packets, > and a definition how to measure those pretty much requires a modelling > of the underlying duplicate elimination model. Maybe we could even > define this standard behavior via a reference P4 program. That could > be fun ;-) > > To make it widely applicable, the specification > should really only refer to application of this forwarding plane function > to packet-flows identified by other means (aka: any other form of > looking up/identifying packet flows) and sequence numbers at > a defineable offset into packets. Therefore staying agnostic to > any specific choosen encap to carry the sequence numer. L2TPv3, RTP, > any form of other L2/MPS/etc. encap i don't know - does not matter. > > Of course we would need to have in the same or another draft at least > one reference encap option that would allow to deploy a fully standardized > version of this (MPLS is fine given where SPs stand today ;-)). > > Wrt to some of the statements in your document: > > - If the replication is also inserting sequence numbers it would also > be a stateful operation. > > - duplicate transmission in itself is not a mean to counter congestion > or make rate adaptation simpller (where rate adaptation is the IETF > TSV requirement for reaction to congestion). See also RFC7198. > Doing rate-adaptive traffic in live-live environments would be > a cool reaearch topic IMHO, but not something DetNet or the > multicast use cases would immediatel profit from. > > Aka: The right formulation would be that live-live can help > in a variety of loss situations: > > - total path loss on one side (link, node, linecard, ... failure). > > - BER type issues: loss of packets due to physcial tranmission > errors - not congestion based (very common in copper, but also WiFi). > > - burst accumulation into queues. I think it > is this case you where thinking of, but i think thats not > called (ongoing) congestion, aka: it does not require > downspeeding/rate adaptation. But live in queue/buffer > management becomes a lot easier if you have some headroom > here through live-live. > > - I am not sure to what degree a definition would need to get into > specific platform issues such as where/how to do these functions > in a distributed fashion, e.g.: on ingres or egres and the like. > As an example: BIER is also a very novel forwarding plane paradigm > and all the initial platforms with asic acceleration we discussed > BIER with where having quite some challenges figuring out how > to do it, but that did not lead to any request to discuss/document > any such device internals on the IETF drafts (now to become RFC). > > Aka: with that recent experience in mind i would stick to the > external observable behavior, well define it (including above > described operator interface/diagnostics as a key component), > and then see what feedback we get. > > Cheers > Toerless > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Sun Nov 12 18:09:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1239E126CB6 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:09:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y_uwtu_uJjLk for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:09:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x22a.google.com (mail-pf0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6D2D12704A for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:09:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id d28so10798188pfe.2 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:09:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=HMADEceXb7st5+d4By4yqfcQFgsbl69faflD6EoWmIY=; b=QbnJDky+Y1ya3EoCK23492/U06FLpknkafGw5AexOmXsHyMW+BdQN1WT7vrEs/DkMO ZafM08EGTIUfRo4E6RdepgekZK4Q07nxlQ58c3zDqEEle080IsGjIf1CTIffqh2ub0WK +b8tzGD0K9Ca2cRnf364gOqd5qGjIZgBvs9K22CQqSLpfZECDSF272HzjsjYPcre8S4L vO60GGdqnxD7ws0KXnqwagWNQF20vRXhs5laLTD1+qx5ROagxwBnH/4ZbWWS2Cy+MdU/ h2xVQtNna3gaBNU+M/2I09r8kaZg5ghz8za9MTL0I6rYAg6xp5xU9XELnZBct4mTtQR5 IT0g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=HMADEceXb7st5+d4By4yqfcQFgsbl69faflD6EoWmIY=; b=Xs+9Mrf1MoI8j1/oyn0BM7aEEH5UvgaytTpViEsGSACxeffwmcKWQKmPYbR6BCf1Cr Axa1CSaFa+1Rrd6TZHuxUm1gbAb2o9PZibiUTsjz4Hlnzt3nmn9+5e0UMz5isVTyXa+V RyQMgZCc6jW22rxN3S1gAGvC/Fzkx7Bli8ZLUwyukUpnr1ue0MPgpHvuOXDnFLLR/03Z o8aEsoD6TDI9T1g/Eqhr4UI5AvnDHvqhRWliiSk4fAecQ2DDczuSTxqe2lT00EAefI4P z406+H/U5qpxlD9cQq+1bzYwHI1r3fx2+gkvtLSgHocr1o9Bh1o8WzzOdAavtVwDn/lB KsPw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX5e/weBTbDg64WzYjQtBOJIVa6ZLjuv9VPVFjVGCsSLM1Mz/+P+ 9PgCXItaFjlM/xwGW5fvL92rC5mD X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMZ8YhPkkkSmmf9SwjCISz8y1DxDyyPdfhEYF430IOwK11M+a+0vSI20VB/YqiepGjaAi1lGTQ== X-Received: by 10.99.191.78 with SMTP id i14mr7314442pgo.220.1510538966039; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:09:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:ecf4:8abb:6b33:c58e? ([2001:67c:370:128:ecf4:8abb:6b33:c58e]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n19sm31917167pfj.52.2017.11.12.18.09.24 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:09:25 -0800 (PST) To: Norman Finn , Toerless Eckert , "detnet@ietf.org" References: <20171112232828.GD19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9A80@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <6762bf09-77ed-9ab0-5cbc-c99b5f78edf4@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 02:09:24 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9A80@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 02:09:29 -0000 From  the perspective of this document, the point to note is that the replicator (whether replicating multicast or unicast traffic) uses the same packet forwarder technology as multicast. This technology is ubiquidous and stateless. It is the eliminator that is statefull and far more challanging. - Stewart On 13/11/2017 00:49, Norman Finn wrote: > Toerless, > > Who says that DetNet is unicast only?? The drafts haven't addressed this very well, yet. But TSN has been multicast from Day 1. The DetNet data plane will handle multicast. The trick is to realize, as TSN has, that packet replication for reliability is *not* a multicast operation. I say it's not multicast, because the branches will criss-cross, and that's something that multicast doesn't do. The multicast trees spread out *after* the packet replication. Those multicast paths are true trees, and the two (or more) multicast trees take different routes to the same places. > > -- Norm > ________________________________________ > From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Toerless Eckert [tte@cs.fau.de] > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:28 PM > To: stewart.bryant@gmail.com; detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination > > Hi Steart > > Thanks for this draft. I am quite interest to help co-author this further > if there is interest by the WG in this type of work. I would very much > hope there is, even though i would find this work most beneficial if > it was targetted as a normative reference describing this forwarding > model in a way that would allow it to be referenced by more IETF > solutions than "just" DetNet (not to diminish DetNet any way ;-). > > The one example use case that is IMHO like DetNet missing a solid definition > how to do this is exactly is the often as "live-life" described dual forwarding > of IP multicast traffic in network devices: > > IMHO, IP multicast can actually help to bring down the price in products > to support good live-live forwarding functions because in IP multicast > this method would have applicability to more traffic than in unicast: > > In Unicast (e.g.: DetNet), the network cost is simply factor 2 in bandwidth > (high level, there are arguments to bring down that perceived cost). > In IP multicast it actually a cost-saving: Consider you loose a packet > that would be replicated to 10,000 users. And you need to protect againsts > that loss. All other approaches such as other forms of FEC or ARQ (retransmission) > have a relatively higher cost of bandwidth and operations than live-live. > > Even though there are various vendor options to support live-live for multicast, > to the best of my knowledge, there are no implementations where the > replication/elimination (often called "merge" or "de-duplication") is performed > by sequence numbers in network devices. But i have not tracked this for > a few years across vendors. It has been demonstrated to be IMHO easily > possible in HW forwarding planes with sufficiently intelligent HW forwarding > planes as early as maybe 8..10 years back and should be easily be implementable > in e.g.: P4 as an example. The only instance of IETF work related to > this is IMHO RFC7431, but it does not include the actual sequence number > based duplication/de-duplication but only resorts to deplication based > on state based switchover. Something which is a common technique in netork > such a pseudowire redundancy and others if i remember correctly. > > Doing sequence number based live-live has of course been the standard > mechanism how our retirement savings are gambled with by the financial > industry - since at least hmm.. 1997 i think: market data networks. No > single packet must be lost in those networks and IP multicast solutions > with live-live provided that now for 20 years. > > Therefore it is also long time well known how to enginer SP networks > to support the dual-path transmission. But to the best of my knowledge, > they leave the duplication/de-duplication all to the application side. > The same is true for linear TV video, where SMPTE receiver functions do > support this sequence number de-duplication as a standard function. > And just leave the dual path transmission to network equipment. One > transport layer definition for this is RFC7198. > > So, IMHO we are missing a simple, but solid definition of a network > devices forwarding plane functionality to duplicate with sequence > number insertion (or this may come from app side) and de-duplication > based on sequence number. The standard behavior of those forwarding > functions is IMHO best defined based on the visible parameter > of its behavior at the operator side (e.g.: Yang model) because > for any such high-value service you need to have some operational > parameter such as measured partially-lost/fully-lost/late etc. packets, > and a definition how to measure those pretty much requires a modelling > of the underlying duplicate elimination model. Maybe we could even > define this standard behavior via a reference P4 program. That could > be fun ;-) > > To make it widely applicable, the specification > should really only refer to application of this forwarding plane function > to packet-flows identified by other means (aka: any other form of > looking up/identifying packet flows) and sequence numbers at > a defineable offset into packets. Therefore staying agnostic to > any specific choosen encap to carry the sequence numer. L2TPv3, RTP, > any form of other L2/MPS/etc. encap i don't know - does not matter. > > Of course we would need to have in the same or another draft at least > one reference encap option that would allow to deploy a fully standardized > version of this (MPLS is fine given where SPs stand today ;-)). > > Wrt to some of the statements in your document: > > - If the replication is also inserting sequence numbers it would also > be a stateful operation. > > - duplicate transmission in itself is not a mean to counter congestion > or make rate adaptation simpller (where rate adaptation is the IETF > TSV requirement for reaction to congestion). See also RFC7198. > Doing rate-adaptive traffic in live-live environments would be > a cool reaearch topic IMHO, but not something DetNet or the > multicast use cases would immediatel profit from. > > Aka: The right formulation would be that live-live can help > in a variety of loss situations: > > - total path loss on one side (link, node, linecard, ... failure). > > - BER type issues: loss of packets due to physcial tranmission > errors - not congestion based (very common in copper, but also WiFi). > > - burst accumulation into queues. I think it > is this case you where thinking of, but i think thats not > called (ongoing) congestion, aka: it does not require > downspeeding/rate adaptation. But live in queue/buffer > management becomes a lot easier if you have some headroom > here through live-live. > > - I am not sure to what degree a definition would need to get into > specific platform issues such as where/how to do these functions > in a distributed fashion, e.g.: on ingres or egres and the like. > As an example: BIER is also a very novel forwarding plane paradigm > and all the initial platforms with asic acceleration we discussed > BIER with where having quite some challenges figuring out how > to do it, but that did not lead to any request to discuss/document > any such device internals on the IETF drafts (now to become RFC). > > Aka: with that recent experience in mind i would stick to the > external observable behavior, well define it (including above > described operator interface/diagnostics as a key component), > and then see what feedback we get. > > Cheers > Toerless > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Sun Nov 12 18:18:14 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 030771243FE for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:18:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YgnjnzpwSqkT for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:18:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A311F12778D for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:18:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32F6B58C4DC; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 03:18:03 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 1BCF5B0D169; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 03:18:03 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 03:18:03 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Stewart Bryant Cc: Norman Finn , "detnet@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20171113021802.GL19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20171112232828.GD19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9A80@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> <6762bf09-77ed-9ab0-5cbc-c99b5f78edf4@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <6762bf09-77ed-9ab0-5cbc-c99b5f78edf4@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 02:18:12 -0000 In that case you're assuming some pre-existing sequence number generation mechanism. Its not sure to me whether thats a valid assumption or whether creation of secquence number for specifically identified classes of packets and attaching the sequence number to the packet is not also a feature often considered novel especially in accelerated HW forwarding plane. Cheers Toerless On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 02:09:24AM +0000, Stewart Bryant wrote: > > From the perspective of this document, the point to note is that > the replicator (whether replicating multicast or unicast traffic) > uses the same packet forwarder technology as multicast. This > technology is ubiquidous and stateless. > > It is the eliminator that is statefull and far more challanging. > > - Stewart > > > On 13/11/2017 00:49, Norman Finn wrote: > >Toerless, > > > >Who says that DetNet is unicast only?? The drafts haven't addressed this very well, yet. But TSN has been multicast from Day 1. The DetNet data plane will handle multicast. The trick is to realize, as TSN has, that packet replication for reliability is *not* a multicast operation. I say it's not multicast, because the branches will criss-cross, and that's something that multicast doesn't do. The multicast trees spread out *after* the packet replication. Those multicast paths are true trees, and the two (or more) multicast trees take different routes to the same places. > > > >-- Norm > >________________________________________ > >From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Toerless Eckert [tte@cs.fau.de] > >Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:28 PM > >To: stewart.bryant@gmail.com; detnet@ietf.org > >Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination > > > >Hi Steart > > > >Thanks for this draft. I am quite interest to help co-author this further > >if there is interest by the WG in this type of work. I would very much > >hope there is, even though i would find this work most beneficial if > >it was targetted as a normative reference describing this forwarding > >model in a way that would allow it to be referenced by more IETF > >solutions than "just" DetNet (not to diminish DetNet any way ;-). > > > >The one example use case that is IMHO like DetNet missing a solid definition > >how to do this is exactly is the often as "live-life" described dual forwarding > >of IP multicast traffic in network devices: > > > >IMHO, IP multicast can actually help to bring down the price in products > >to support good live-live forwarding functions because in IP multicast > >this method would have applicability to more traffic than in unicast: > > > >In Unicast (e.g.: DetNet), the network cost is simply factor 2 in bandwidth > >(high level, there are arguments to bring down that perceived cost). > >In IP multicast it actually a cost-saving: Consider you loose a packet > >that would be replicated to 10,000 users. And you need to protect againsts > >that loss. All other approaches such as other forms of FEC or ARQ (retransmission) > >have a relatively higher cost of bandwidth and operations than live-live. > > > >Even though there are various vendor options to support live-live for multicast, > >to the best of my knowledge, there are no implementations where the > >replication/elimination (often called "merge" or "de-duplication") is performed > >by sequence numbers in network devices. But i have not tracked this for > >a few years across vendors. It has been demonstrated to be IMHO easily > >possible in HW forwarding planes with sufficiently intelligent HW forwarding > >planes as early as maybe 8..10 years back and should be easily be implementable > >in e.g.: P4 as an example. The only instance of IETF work related to > >this is IMHO RFC7431, but it does not include the actual sequence number > >based duplication/de-duplication but only resorts to deplication based > >on state based switchover. Something which is a common technique in netork > >such a pseudowire redundancy and others if i remember correctly. > > > >Doing sequence number based live-live has of course been the standard > >mechanism how our retirement savings are gambled with by the financial > >industry - since at least hmm.. 1997 i think: market data networks. No > >single packet must be lost in those networks and IP multicast solutions > >with live-live provided that now for 20 years. > > > >Therefore it is also long time well known how to enginer SP networks > >to support the dual-path transmission. But to the best of my knowledge, > >they leave the duplication/de-duplication all to the application side. > >The same is true for linear TV video, where SMPTE receiver functions do > >support this sequence number de-duplication as a standard function. > >And just leave the dual path transmission to network equipment. One > >transport layer definition for this is RFC7198. > > > >So, IMHO we are missing a simple, but solid definition of a network > >devices forwarding plane functionality to duplicate with sequence > >number insertion (or this may come from app side) and de-duplication > >based on sequence number. The standard behavior of those forwarding > >functions is IMHO best defined based on the visible parameter > >of its behavior at the operator side (e.g.: Yang model) because > >for any such high-value service you need to have some operational > >parameter such as measured partially-lost/fully-lost/late etc. packets, > >and a definition how to measure those pretty much requires a modelling > >of the underlying duplicate elimination model. Maybe we could even > >define this standard behavior via a reference P4 program. That could > >be fun ;-) > > > >To make it widely applicable, the specification > >should really only refer to application of this forwarding plane function > >to packet-flows identified by other means (aka: any other form of > >looking up/identifying packet flows) and sequence numbers at > >a defineable offset into packets. Therefore staying agnostic to > >any specific choosen encap to carry the sequence numer. L2TPv3, RTP, > >any form of other L2/MPS/etc. encap i don't know - does not matter. > > > >Of course we would need to have in the same or another draft at least > >one reference encap option that would allow to deploy a fully standardized > >version of this (MPLS is fine given where SPs stand today ;-)). > > > >Wrt to some of the statements in your document: > > > >- If the replication is also inserting sequence numbers it would also > > be a stateful operation. > > > >- duplicate transmission in itself is not a mean to counter congestion > > or make rate adaptation simpller (where rate adaptation is the IETF > > TSV requirement for reaction to congestion). See also RFC7198. > > Doing rate-adaptive traffic in live-live environments would be > > a cool reaearch topic IMHO, but not something DetNet or the > > multicast use cases would immediatel profit from. > > > > Aka: The right formulation would be that live-live can help > > in a variety of loss situations: > > > > - total path loss on one side (link, node, linecard, ... failure). > > > > - BER type issues: loss of packets due to physcial tranmission > > errors - not congestion based (very common in copper, but also WiFi). > > > > - burst accumulation into queues. I think it > > is this case you where thinking of, but i think thats not > > called (ongoing) congestion, aka: it does not require > > downspeeding/rate adaptation. But live in queue/buffer > > management becomes a lot easier if you have some headroom > > here through live-live. > > > >- I am not sure to what degree a definition would need to get into > > specific platform issues such as where/how to do these functions > > in a distributed fashion, e.g.: on ingres or egres and the like. > > As an example: BIER is also a very novel forwarding plane paradigm > > and all the initial platforms with asic acceleration we discussed > > BIER with where having quite some challenges figuring out how > > to do it, but that did not lead to any request to discuss/document > > any such device internals on the IETF drafts (now to become RFC). > > > > Aka: with that recent experience in mind i would stick to the > > external observable behavior, well define it (including above > > described operator interface/diagnostics as a key component), > > and then see what feedback we get. > > > >Cheers > > Toerless > > > >_______________________________________________ > >detnet mailing list > >detnet@ietf.org > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Sun Nov 12 18:40:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 388951273E2 for ; 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detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination In that case you're assuming some pre-existing sequence number generation m= echanism.=20 Its not sure to me whether thats a valid assumption or whether creation of = secquence number for specifically identified classes of packets and attachi= ng the sequence number to the packet is not also a feature often considered= novel especially in accelerated HW forwarding plane. Cheers Toerless On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 02:09:24AM +0000, Stewart Bryant wrote: >=20 > From=A0 the perspective of this document, the point to note is that the=20 > replicator (whether replicating multicast or unicast traffic) uses the=20 > same packet forwarder technology as multicast. This technology is=20 > ubiquidous and stateless. >=20 > It is the eliminator that is statefull and far more challanging. >=20 > - Stewart >=20 >=20 > On 13/11/2017 00:49, Norman Finn wrote: > >Toerless, > > > >Who says that DetNet is unicast only?? The drafts haven't addressed thi= s very well, yet. But TSN has been multicast from Day 1. The DetNet data = plane will handle multicast. The trick is to realize, as TSN has, that pac= ket replication for reliability is *not* a multicast operation. I say it's= not multicast, because the branches will criss-cross, and that's something= that multicast doesn't do. The multicast trees spread out *after* the pac= ket replication. Those multicast paths are true trees, and the two (or mor= e) multicast trees take different routes to the same places. > > > >-- Norm > >________________________________________ > >From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Toerless Eckert=20 > >[tte@cs.fau.de] > >Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:28 PM > >To: stewart.bryant@gmail.com; detnet@ietf.org > >Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination > > > >Hi Steart > > > >Thanks for this draft. I am quite interest to help co-author this=20 > >further if there is interest by the WG in this type of work. I would=20 > >very much hope there is, even though i would find this work most=20 > >beneficial if it was targetted as a normative reference describing=20 > >this forwarding model in a way that would allow it to be referenced=20 > >by more IETF solutions than "just" DetNet (not to diminish DetNet any wa= y ;-). > > > >The one example use case that is IMHO like DetNet missing a solid=20 > >definition how to do this is exactly is the often as "live-life"=20 > >described dual forwarding of IP multicast traffic in network devices: > > > >IMHO, IP multicast can actually help to bring down the price in=20 > >products to support good live-live forwarding functions because in IP=20 > >multicast this method would have applicability to more traffic than in u= nicast: > > > >In Unicast (e.g.: DetNet), the network cost is simply factor 2 in=20 > >bandwidth (high level, there are arguments to bring down that perceived = cost). > >In IP multicast it actually a cost-saving: Consider you loose a=20 > >packet that would be replicated to 10,000 users. And you need to=20 > >protect againsts that loss. All other approaches such as other forms=20 > >of FEC or ARQ (retransmission) have a relatively higher cost of bandwidt= h and operations than live-live. > > > >Even though there are various vendor options to support live-live for=20 > >multicast, to the best of my knowledge, there are no implementations=20 > >where the replication/elimination (often called "merge" or=20 > >"de-duplication") is performed by sequence numbers in network=20 > >devices. But i have not tracked this for a few years across vendors.=20 > >It has been demonstrated to be IMHO easily possible in HW forwarding=20 > >planes with sufficiently intelligent HW forwarding planes as early as=20 > >maybe 8..10 years back and should be easily be implementable in e.g.:=20 > >P4 as an example. The only instance of IETF work related to this is=20 > >IMHO RFC7431, but it does not include the actual sequence number=20 > >based duplication/de-duplication but only resorts to deplication=20 > >based on state based switchover. Something which is a common technique i= n netork such a pseudowire redundancy and others if i remember correctly. > > > >Doing sequence number based live-live has of course been the standard=20 > >mechanism how our retirement savings are gambled with by the=20 > >financial industry - since at least hmm.. 1997 i think: market data=20 > >networks. No single packet must be lost in those networks and IP=20 > >multicast solutions with live-live provided that now for 20 years. > > > >Therefore it is also long time well known how to enginer SP networks=20 > >to support the dual-path transmission. But to the best of my=20 > >knowledge, they leave the duplication/de-duplication all to the applicat= ion side. > >The same is true for linear TV video, where SMPTE receiver functions=20 > >do support this sequence number de-duplication as a standard function. > >And just leave the dual path transmission to network equipment. One=20 > >transport layer definition for this is RFC7198. > > > >So, IMHO we are missing a simple, but solid definition of a network=20 > >devices forwarding plane functionality to duplicate with sequence=20 > >number insertion (or this may come from app side) and de-duplication=20 > >based on sequence number. The standard behavior of those forwarding=20 > >functions is IMHO best defined based on the visible parameter of its=20 > >behavior at the operator side (e.g.: Yang model) because for any such=20 > >high-value service you need to have some operational parameter such=20 > >as measured partially-lost/fully-lost/late etc. packets, and a=20 > >definition how to measure those pretty much requires a modelling of=20 > >the underlying duplicate elimination model. Maybe we could even=20 > >define this standard behavior via a reference P4 program. That could=20 > >be fun ;-) > > > >To make it widely applicable, the specification should really only=20 > >refer to application of this forwarding plane function to=20 > >packet-flows identified by other means (aka: any other form of=20 > >looking up/identifying packet flows) and sequence numbers at a=20 > >defineable offset into packets. Therefore staying agnostic to any=20 > >specific choosen encap to carry the sequence numer. L2TPv3, RTP, any=20 > >form of other L2/MPS/etc. encap i don't know - does not matter. > > > >Of course we would need to have in the same or another draft at least=20 > >one reference encap option that would allow to deploy a fully=20 > >standardized version of this (MPLS is fine given where SPs stand today ;= -)). > > > >Wrt to some of the statements in your document: > > > >- If the replication is also inserting sequence numbers it would also > > be a stateful operation. > > > >- duplicate transmission in itself is not a mean to counter congestion > > or make rate adaptation simpller (where rate adaptation is the IETF > > TSV requirement for reaction to congestion). See also RFC7198. > > Doing rate-adaptive traffic in live-live environments would be > > a cool reaearch topic IMHO, but not something DetNet or the > > multicast use cases would immediatel profit from. > > > > Aka: The right formulation would be that live-live can help > > in a variety of loss situations: > > > > - total path loss on one side (link, node, linecard, ... failure). > > > > - BER type issues: loss of packets due to physcial tranmission > > errors - not congestion based (very common in copper, but also WiFi= ). > > > > - burst accumulation into queues. I think it > > is this case you where thinking of, but i think thats not > > called (ongoing) congestion, aka: it does not require > > downspeeding/rate adaptation. But live in queue/buffer > > management becomes a lot easier if you have some headroom > > here through live-live. > > > >- I am not sure to what degree a definition would need to get into > > specific platform issues such as where/how to do these functions > > in a distributed fashion, e.g.: on ingres or egres and the like. > > As an example: BIER is also a very novel forwarding plane paradigm > > and all the initial platforms with asic acceleration we discussed > > BIER with where having quite some challenges figuring out how > > to do it, but that did not lead to any request to discuss/document > > any such device internals on the IETF drafts (now to become RFC). > > > > Aka: with that recent experience in mind i would stick to the > > external observable behavior, well define it (including above > > described operator interface/diagnostics as a key component), > > and then see what feedback we get. > > > >Cheers > > Toerless > > > >_______________________________________________ > >detnet mailing list > >detnet@ietf.org > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet -- --- tte@cs.fau.de _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Sun Nov 12 18:41:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 685E3126C83 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:41:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HFzCT3obSzgQ for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:41:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg0-x231.google.com (mail-pg0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E80FF124D37 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:41:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg0-x231.google.com with SMTP id c123so3624476pga.11 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:41:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=OE4mAFv+XEG6eWTo5J2nruO8rcSiano8WsQpGj9fYcY=; b=Nb0pCf0OHWtnwRxAiWun/NRd34i/AFFw9rEXHS4Z1hOJ+4Tv9/KcPIPdGfEJMCzzxI ZNHB6bRsLFSkgnfzGaO8gLjF3xKvl5MQeXXyOXcDJBAL2N+zTcc1VnwUOggoaK5g+xml cAD6sqTxk/GyhPo9KR8thWGt5noTyCmhsUOVskX68wEt5G4l040rNwnq8UDZmJYhrklj 3mwefa1FFgFRCqGkKxylZrnqPWdmmrVogiu4lRqvU9qvumUaG4rykWfbKgVT/RlkiMwS FY8fuGFp8zF/Kbpqn6WAs1NYfR91iEcAcLovHm4ZXdrj6Ok+//ARydecAewJh2Jy5vxR A3gQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=OE4mAFv+XEG6eWTo5J2nruO8rcSiano8WsQpGj9fYcY=; b=N4TyqAxRncFjPMwZH5K1yh5vdwCROSFn1A01mCRl3wZ++27HUHojLocCH6a7Os+wXg Dc9/iuhzfcck3QfNeyKrmqS4dAMrWoLZYW4OE6Sw2gXf2Yv/SMfto9le/fd1MpGVwTak 7CSppCcyxi6ZxGHcuN0Fxmx1D4qR7bBHfi4kTi27H0K0faaFGC//nsL9yZxHI6GLmXdf DHNmPvcDFCiX8fg60ctlObnkczMKY3+EHAL2zXUNL6s7qY2iSbNucCGWVD9feDUIDS0B Jpq/cV9qdnYsxdF8ABfNlTfWWWeAioQR3Zt5v6xopEPCYDuIX/zUSE81JZN5JRqbTb22 gSzg== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX4CbBSbpfOz0OH8J+NZCpFb0tAlsYEWLhTOqZCx3Ns9TJ2vzkSG HK0PzsqzuA6ndzWkuShHcWT5jQI6 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMaP9+RJVSfm7p+cVh8y5oP6MXjzOjk9L/wgP0UmbG3gyhxw2CvJrJvbJadAO4GLJeJZp26amA== X-Received: by 10.101.82.1 with SMTP id o1mr7130427pgp.261.1510540877199; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:41:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [31.133.130.80] (dhcp-8250.meeting.ietf.org. [31.133.130.80]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f70sm21956643pfc.84.2017.11.12.18.41.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:41:16 -0800 (PST) To: Toerless Eckert Cc: Norman Finn , "detnet@ietf.org" References: <20171112232828.GD19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9A80@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> <6762bf09-77ed-9ab0-5cbc-c99b5f78edf4@gmail.com> <20171113021802.GL19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <78266374-8aed-ee29-21da-9ca80e53ba21@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 02:40:55 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20171113021802.GL19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 02:41:20 -0000 Yes, that is a good point. We need to distinguish between an encapsulating replicator and an in-network replicator. An in-network replicator is stateless. An encapsulating replicator is stateful. - Stewart On 13/11/2017 02:18, Toerless Eckert wrote: > In that case you're assuming some pre-existing sequence number generation mechanism. > > Its not sure to me whether thats a valid assumption or whether creation > of secquence number for specifically identified classes of packets and attaching the > sequence number to the packet is not also a feature often considered novel especially > in accelerated HW forwarding plane. > > Cheers > Toerless > > On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 02:09:24AM +0000, Stewart Bryant wrote: >> From  the perspective of this document, the point to note is that >> the replicator (whether replicating multicast or unicast traffic) >> uses the same packet forwarder technology as multicast. This >> technology is ubiquidous and stateless. >> >> It is the eliminator that is statefull and far more challanging. >> >> - Stewart >> >> >> On 13/11/2017 00:49, Norman Finn wrote: >>> Toerless, >>> >>> Who says that DetNet is unicast only?? The drafts haven't addressed this very well, yet. But TSN has been multicast from Day 1. The DetNet data plane will handle multicast. The trick is to realize, as TSN has, that packet replication for reliability is *not* a multicast operation. I say it's not multicast, because the branches will criss-cross, and that's something that multicast doesn't do. The multicast trees spread out *after* the packet replication. Those multicast paths are true trees, and the two (or more) multicast trees take different routes to the same places. >>> >>> -- Norm >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Toerless Eckert [tte@cs.fau.de] >>> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:28 PM >>> To: stewart.bryant@gmail.com; detnet@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination >>> >>> Hi Steart >>> >>> Thanks for this draft. I am quite interest to help co-author this further >>> if there is interest by the WG in this type of work. I would very much >>> hope there is, even though i would find this work most beneficial if >>> it was targetted as a normative reference describing this forwarding >>> model in a way that would allow it to be referenced by more IETF >>> solutions than "just" DetNet (not to diminish DetNet any way ;-). >>> >>> The one example use case that is IMHO like DetNet missing a solid definition >>> how to do this is exactly is the often as "live-life" described dual forwarding >>> of IP multicast traffic in network devices: >>> >>> IMHO, IP multicast can actually help to bring down the price in products >>> to support good live-live forwarding functions because in IP multicast >>> this method would have applicability to more traffic than in unicast: >>> >>> In Unicast (e.g.: DetNet), the network cost is simply factor 2 in bandwidth >>> (high level, there are arguments to bring down that perceived cost). >>> In IP multicast it actually a cost-saving: Consider you loose a packet >>> that would be replicated to 10,000 users. And you need to protect againsts >>> that loss. All other approaches such as other forms of FEC or ARQ (retransmission) >>> have a relatively higher cost of bandwidth and operations than live-live. >>> >>> Even though there are various vendor options to support live-live for multicast, >>> to the best of my knowledge, there are no implementations where the >>> replication/elimination (often called "merge" or "de-duplication") is performed >>> by sequence numbers in network devices. But i have not tracked this for >>> a few years across vendors. It has been demonstrated to be IMHO easily >>> possible in HW forwarding planes with sufficiently intelligent HW forwarding >>> planes as early as maybe 8..10 years back and should be easily be implementable >>> in e.g.: P4 as an example. The only instance of IETF work related to >>> this is IMHO RFC7431, but it does not include the actual sequence number >>> based duplication/de-duplication but only resorts to deplication based >>> on state based switchover. Something which is a common technique in netork >>> such a pseudowire redundancy and others if i remember correctly. >>> >>> Doing sequence number based live-live has of course been the standard >>> mechanism how our retirement savings are gambled with by the financial >>> industry - since at least hmm.. 1997 i think: market data networks. No >>> single packet must be lost in those networks and IP multicast solutions >>> with live-live provided that now for 20 years. >>> >>> Therefore it is also long time well known how to enginer SP networks >>> to support the dual-path transmission. But to the best of my knowledge, >>> they leave the duplication/de-duplication all to the application side. >>> The same is true for linear TV video, where SMPTE receiver functions do >>> support this sequence number de-duplication as a standard function. >>> And just leave the dual path transmission to network equipment. One >>> transport layer definition for this is RFC7198. >>> >>> So, IMHO we are missing a simple, but solid definition of a network >>> devices forwarding plane functionality to duplicate with sequence >>> number insertion (or this may come from app side) and de-duplication >>> based on sequence number. The standard behavior of those forwarding >>> functions is IMHO best defined based on the visible parameter >>> of its behavior at the operator side (e.g.: Yang model) because >>> for any such high-value service you need to have some operational >>> parameter such as measured partially-lost/fully-lost/late etc. packets, >>> and a definition how to measure those pretty much requires a modelling >>> of the underlying duplicate elimination model. Maybe we could even >>> define this standard behavior via a reference P4 program. That could >>> be fun ;-) >>> >>> To make it widely applicable, the specification >>> should really only refer to application of this forwarding plane function >>> to packet-flows identified by other means (aka: any other form of >>> looking up/identifying packet flows) and sequence numbers at >>> a defineable offset into packets. Therefore staying agnostic to >>> any specific choosen encap to carry the sequence numer. L2TPv3, RTP, >>> any form of other L2/MPS/etc. encap i don't know - does not matter. >>> >>> Of course we would need to have in the same or another draft at least >>> one reference encap option that would allow to deploy a fully standardized >>> version of this (MPLS is fine given where SPs stand today ;-)). >>> >>> Wrt to some of the statements in your document: >>> >>> - If the replication is also inserting sequence numbers it would also >>> be a stateful operation. >>> >>> - duplicate transmission in itself is not a mean to counter congestion >>> or make rate adaptation simpller (where rate adaptation is the IETF >>> TSV requirement for reaction to congestion). See also RFC7198. >>> Doing rate-adaptive traffic in live-live environments would be >>> a cool reaearch topic IMHO, but not something DetNet or the >>> multicast use cases would immediatel profit from. >>> >>> Aka: The right formulation would be that live-live can help >>> in a variety of loss situations: >>> >>> - total path loss on one side (link, node, linecard, ... failure). >>> >>> - BER type issues: loss of packets due to physcial tranmission >>> errors - not congestion based (very common in copper, but also WiFi). >>> >>> - burst accumulation into queues. I think it >>> is this case you where thinking of, but i think thats not >>> called (ongoing) congestion, aka: it does not require >>> downspeeding/rate adaptation. But live in queue/buffer >>> management becomes a lot easier if you have some headroom >>> here through live-live. >>> >>> - I am not sure to what degree a definition would need to get into >>> specific platform issues such as where/how to do these functions >>> in a distributed fashion, e.g.: on ingres or egres and the like. >>> As an example: BIER is also a very novel forwarding plane paradigm >>> and all the initial platforms with asic acceleration we discussed >>> BIER with where having quite some challenges figuring out how >>> to do it, but that did not lead to any request to discuss/document >>> any such device internals on the IETF drafts (now to become RFC). >>> >>> Aka: with that recent experience in mind i would stick to the >>> external observable behavior, well define it (including above >>> described operator interface/diagnostics as a key component), >>> and then see what feedback we get. >>> >>> Cheers >>> Toerless >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Sun Nov 12 18:43:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FE03128954; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:43:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2hVEbaQJw-4z; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:43:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com [67.231.144.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C02D2128B38; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:43:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0045961.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id vAD2Z7Aj007069; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:38:16 -0800 Received: from dlb-xchpw03.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.187.124]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2e5wm5v4sv-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:38:16 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:38:15 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:38:15 -0800 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: Norman Finn , "draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org" CC: Gary Weiner , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: DetNet Security Meet-Up Thread-Index: AdNbrQyrOiNW607HS5+tae3US/2RDQAbH8uJAAOxdHA= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 02:38:15 +0000 Message-ID: <777bef507fe94f7a9e91cdb850a268da@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> References: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9AD2@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9AD2@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.233.7.60] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_777bef507fe94f7a9e91cdb850a268daDLBXCHPW03dolbynet_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-11-13_01:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 02:43:41 -0000 --_000_777bef507fe94f7a9e91cdb850a268daDLBXCHPW03dolbynet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Meet at 13:30 at IETF Registration? Ethan. From: Norman Finn [mailto:norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 4:52 PM To: Grossman, Ethan A. ; draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.= org Cc: Gary Weiner ; detnet@ietf.org Subject: RE: DetNet Security Meet-Up Yes, let's get together. Right now, any time Tuesday after lunch would be = fine. -- Norm ________________________________ From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:59 AM To: draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org Cc: Gary Weiner; detnet@ietf.org Subject: DetNet Security Meet-Up Hello DetNet Security draft authors, (and adding the DetNet list since we a= re now a WG draft and would like to include anyone who has any interest), Tal and I are here in Singapore and would like to know if any of the rest o= f you might be here in town and might want to meet up over lunch or dinner = (or something) to discuss DetNet security, e.g. next steps for the DetNet S= ecurity draft. If so, please reply and we can plan something. Thanks, Ethan. Ethan Grossman, DetNet Security Draft editor. --_000_777bef507fe94f7a9e91cdb850a268daDLBXCHPW03dolbynet_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Meet at 13:30 at IETF Registration?

Ethan.

 

From: Norman Finn [mailto:norman.fin= n@mail01.huawei.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 4:52 PM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; draft-ietf-detnet-s= ecurity@ietf.org
Cc: Gary Weiner <Gary@Apriori-NET.COM>; detnet@ietf.org
Subject: RE: DetNet Security Meet-Up

 

Yes, let'= s get together.  Right now, any time Tuesday after lunch would be fine= .

-- Norm

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(faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A51131241F5 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:47:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876AE58C4DC; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 03:47:50 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 66CBBB0D169; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 03:47:50 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 03:47:50 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Bal?zs Varga A Cc: Stewart Bryant , Norman Finn , "detnet@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20171113024750.GR19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20171112232828.GD19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9A80@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> <6762bf09-77ed-9ab0-5cbc-c99b5f78edf4@gmail.com> <20171113021802.GL19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 02:47:57 -0000 On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 02:39:10AM +0000, Bal?zs Varga A wrote: > Hi, > Sequence numbers are generated: > - by the source Right. This is the case where forwarding plane flexibility will become handy because apps are unlikely to generate sequence number in a "network friendly" way like MPLS header, but more inside some RTP header for example. So even if the netork only needs to do the dedup, if we want to support the source sequecne number generation, we have to think beyond our network centric view for encaps. > - at the ingress UNI (if S/N not generated by the source or it cannot be (re-)used by the ingress PE) Right. Thats where we would do the "network friendly sequence number headers". Either way, let me know what/if you think is already done in network devices wrt. insertion of sequence number so we as a WG get a better overview how novel it still is. Cheers Toerless > Cheers > Bala'zs > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert > Sent: 2017. november 13. 10:18 > To: Stewart Bryant > Cc: Norman Finn ; detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination > > > In that case you're assuming some pre-existing sequence number generation mechanism. > > Its not sure to me whether thats a valid assumption or whether creation of secquence number for specifically identified classes of packets and attaching the sequence number to the packet is not also a feature often considered novel especially in accelerated HW forwarding plane. > > Cheers > Toerless > > On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 02:09:24AM +0000, Stewart Bryant wrote: > > > > From the perspective of this document, the point to note is that the > > replicator (whether replicating multicast or unicast traffic) uses the > > same packet forwarder technology as multicast. This technology is > > ubiquidous and stateless. > > > > It is the eliminator that is statefull and far more challanging. > > > > - Stewart > > > > > > On 13/11/2017 00:49, Norman Finn wrote: > > >Toerless, > > > > > >Who says that DetNet is unicast only?? The drafts haven't addressed this very well, yet. But TSN has been multicast from Day 1. The DetNet data plane will handle multicast. The trick is to realize, as TSN has, that packet replication for reliability is *not* a multicast operation. I say it's not multicast, because the branches will criss-cross, and that's something that multicast doesn't do. The multicast trees spread out *after* the packet replication. Those multicast paths are true trees, and the two (or more) multicast trees take different routes to the same places. > > > > > >-- Norm > > >________________________________________ > > >From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Toerless Eckert > > >[tte@cs.fau.de] > > >Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:28 PM > > >To: stewart.bryant@gmail.com; detnet@ietf.org > > >Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination > > > > > >Hi Steart > > > > > >Thanks for this draft. I am quite interest to help co-author this > > >further if there is interest by the WG in this type of work. I would > > >very much hope there is, even though i would find this work most > > >beneficial if it was targetted as a normative reference describing > > >this forwarding model in a way that would allow it to be referenced > > >by more IETF solutions than "just" DetNet (not to diminish DetNet any way ;-). > > > > > >The one example use case that is IMHO like DetNet missing a solid > > >definition how to do this is exactly is the often as "live-life" > > >described dual forwarding of IP multicast traffic in network devices: > > > > > >IMHO, IP multicast can actually help to bring down the price in > > >products to support good live-live forwarding functions because in IP > > >multicast this method would have applicability to more traffic than in unicast: > > > > > >In Unicast (e.g.: DetNet), the network cost is simply factor 2 in > > >bandwidth (high level, there are arguments to bring down that perceived cost). > > >In IP multicast it actually a cost-saving: Consider you loose a > > >packet that would be replicated to 10,000 users. And you need to > > >protect againsts that loss. All other approaches such as other forms > > >of FEC or ARQ (retransmission) have a relatively higher cost of bandwidth and operations than live-live. > > > > > >Even though there are various vendor options to support live-live for > > >multicast, to the best of my knowledge, there are no implementations > > >where the replication/elimination (often called "merge" or > > >"de-duplication") is performed by sequence numbers in network > > >devices. But i have not tracked this for a few years across vendors. > > >It has been demonstrated to be IMHO easily possible in HW forwarding > > >planes with sufficiently intelligent HW forwarding planes as early as > > >maybe 8..10 years back and should be easily be implementable in e.g.: > > >P4 as an example. The only instance of IETF work related to this is > > >IMHO RFC7431, but it does not include the actual sequence number > > >based duplication/de-duplication but only resorts to deplication > > >based on state based switchover. Something which is a common technique in netork such a pseudowire redundancy and others if i remember correctly. > > > > > >Doing sequence number based live-live has of course been the standard > > >mechanism how our retirement savings are gambled with by the > > >financial industry - since at least hmm.. 1997 i think: market data > > >networks. No single packet must be lost in those networks and IP > > >multicast solutions with live-live provided that now for 20 years. > > > > > >Therefore it is also long time well known how to enginer SP networks > > >to support the dual-path transmission. But to the best of my > > >knowledge, they leave the duplication/de-duplication all to the application side. > > >The same is true for linear TV video, where SMPTE receiver functions > > >do support this sequence number de-duplication as a standard function. > > >And just leave the dual path transmission to network equipment. One > > >transport layer definition for this is RFC7198. > > > > > >So, IMHO we are missing a simple, but solid definition of a network > > >devices forwarding plane functionality to duplicate with sequence > > >number insertion (or this may come from app side) and de-duplication > > >based on sequence number. The standard behavior of those forwarding > > >functions is IMHO best defined based on the visible parameter of its > > >behavior at the operator side (e.g.: Yang model) because for any such > > >high-value service you need to have some operational parameter such > > >as measured partially-lost/fully-lost/late etc. packets, and a > > >definition how to measure those pretty much requires a modelling of > > >the underlying duplicate elimination model. Maybe we could even > > >define this standard behavior via a reference P4 program. That could > > >be fun ;-) > > > > > >To make it widely applicable, the specification should really only > > >refer to application of this forwarding plane function to > > >packet-flows identified by other means (aka: any other form of > > >looking up/identifying packet flows) and sequence numbers at a > > >defineable offset into packets. Therefore staying agnostic to any > > >specific choosen encap to carry the sequence numer. L2TPv3, RTP, any > > >form of other L2/MPS/etc. encap i don't know - does not matter. > > > > > >Of course we would need to have in the same or another draft at least > > >one reference encap option that would allow to deploy a fully > > >standardized version of this (MPLS is fine given where SPs stand today ;-)). > > > > > >Wrt to some of the statements in your document: > > > > > >- If the replication is also inserting sequence numbers it would also > > > be a stateful operation. > > > > > >- duplicate transmission in itself is not a mean to counter congestion > > > or make rate adaptation simpller (where rate adaptation is the IETF > > > TSV requirement for reaction to congestion). See also RFC7198. > > > Doing rate-adaptive traffic in live-live environments would be > > > a cool reaearch topic IMHO, but not something DetNet or the > > > multicast use cases would immediatel profit from. > > > > > > Aka: The right formulation would be that live-live can help > > > in a variety of loss situations: > > > > > > - total path loss on one side (link, node, linecard, ... failure). > > > > > > - BER type issues: loss of packets due to physcial tranmission > > > errors - not congestion based (very common in copper, but also WiFi). > > > > > > - burst accumulation into queues. I think it > > > is this case you where thinking of, but i think thats not > > > called (ongoing) congestion, aka: it does not require > > > downspeeding/rate adaptation. But live in queue/buffer > > > management becomes a lot easier if you have some headroom > > > here through live-live. > > > > > >- I am not sure to what degree a definition would need to get into > > > specific platform issues such as where/how to do these functions > > > in a distributed fashion, e.g.: on ingres or egres and the like. > > > As an example: BIER is also a very novel forwarding plane paradigm > > > and all the initial platforms with asic acceleration we discussed > > > BIER with where having quite some challenges figuring out how > > > to do it, but that did not lead to any request to discuss/document > > > any such device internals on the IETF drafts (now to become RFC). > > > > > > Aka: with that recent experience in mind i would stick to the > > > external observable behavior, well define it (including above > > > described operator interface/diagnostics as a key component), > > > and then see what feedback we get. > > > > > >Cheers > > > Toerless > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >detnet mailing list > > >detnet@ietf.org > > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Sun Nov 12 18:50:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B751127005 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:49:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4VaJ_1mO0Tc4 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:49:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 400A01241F5 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:49:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A7A558C4DC; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 03:49:50 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id EC0D5B0D15A; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 03:49:49 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 03:49:49 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Bal?zs Varga A Cc: Stewart Bryant , Norman Finn , "detnet@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20171113024949.GS19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20171112232828.GD19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9A80@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> <6762bf09-77ed-9ab0-5cbc-c99b5f78edf4@gmail.com> <20171113021802.GL19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <78266374-8aed-ee29-21da-9ca80e53ba21@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 02:49:58 -0000 On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 02:45:12AM +0000, Bal?zs Varga A wrote: > Hi, > > An encapsulating replicator is stateful. > Not always. An ingress PE re-using the source attached S/N can be stateless. > It is stateful only if it generates the S/N. So for example copy RTP sequence number into new network encap with same sequence number ? Duplication of sequence number header might be beneficial to reduce the requirements against the dedup side or even intermediate monitoring nodes that would not support arbitrary app-generated sequence number headers. Cheers Toerless > Cheers > Bala'zs > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant > Sent: 2017. november 13. 10:41 > To: Toerless Eckert > Cc: Norman Finn ; detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination > > Yes, that is a good point. We need to distinguish between an encapsulating replicator and an in-network replicator. > > An in-network replicator is stateless. > > An encapsulating replicator is stateful. > > - Stewart > > On 13/11/2017 02:18, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > In that case you're assuming some pre-existing sequence number generation mechanism. > > > > Its not sure to me whether thats a valid assumption or whether > > creation of secquence number for specifically identified classes of > > packets and attaching the sequence number to the packet is not also a > > feature often considered novel especially in accelerated HW forwarding plane. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 02:09:24AM +0000, Stewart Bryant wrote: > >> From the perspective of this document, the point to note is that the > >> replicator (whether replicating multicast or unicast traffic) uses > >> the same packet forwarder technology as multicast. This technology is > >> ubiquidous and stateless. > >> > >> It is the eliminator that is statefull and far more challanging. > >> > >> - Stewart > >> > >> > >> On 13/11/2017 00:49, Norman Finn wrote: > >>> Toerless, > >>> > >>> Who says that DetNet is unicast only?? The drafts haven't addressed this very well, yet. But TSN has been multicast from Day 1. The DetNet data plane will handle multicast. The trick is to realize, as TSN has, that packet replication for reliability is *not* a multicast operation. I say it's not multicast, because the branches will criss-cross, and that's something that multicast doesn't do. The multicast trees spread out *after* the packet replication. Those multicast paths are true trees, and the two (or more) multicast trees take different routes to the same places. > >>> > >>> -- Norm > >>> ________________________________________ > >>> From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Toerless Eckert > >>> [tte@cs.fau.de] > >>> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:28 PM > >>> To: stewart.bryant@gmail.com; detnet@ietf.org > >>> Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination > >>> > >>> Hi Steart > >>> > >>> Thanks for this draft. I am quite interest to help co-author this > >>> further if there is interest by the WG in this type of work. I would > >>> very much hope there is, even though i would find this work most > >>> beneficial if it was targetted as a normative reference describing > >>> this forwarding model in a way that would allow it to be referenced > >>> by more IETF solutions than "just" DetNet (not to diminish DetNet any way ;-). > >>> > >>> The one example use case that is IMHO like DetNet missing a solid > >>> definition how to do this is exactly is the often as "live-life" > >>> described dual forwarding of IP multicast traffic in network devices: > >>> > >>> IMHO, IP multicast can actually help to bring down the price in > >>> products to support good live-live forwarding functions because in > >>> IP multicast this method would have applicability to more traffic than in unicast: > >>> > >>> In Unicast (e.g.: DetNet), the network cost is simply factor 2 in > >>> bandwidth (high level, there are arguments to bring down that perceived cost). > >>> In IP multicast it actually a cost-saving: Consider you loose a > >>> packet that would be replicated to 10,000 users. And you need to > >>> protect againsts that loss. All other approaches such as other forms > >>> of FEC or ARQ (retransmission) have a relatively higher cost of bandwidth and operations than live-live. > >>> > >>> Even though there are various vendor options to support live-live > >>> for multicast, to the best of my knowledge, there are no > >>> implementations where the replication/elimination (often called > >>> "merge" or "de-duplication") is performed by sequence numbers in > >>> network devices. But i have not tracked this for a few years across > >>> vendors. It has been demonstrated to be IMHO easily possible in HW > >>> forwarding planes with sufficiently intelligent HW forwarding planes > >>> as early as maybe 8..10 years back and should be easily be > >>> implementable in e.g.: P4 as an example. The only instance of IETF > >>> work related to this is IMHO RFC7431, but it does not include the > >>> actual sequence number based duplication/de-duplication but only > >>> resorts to deplication based on state based switchover. Something which is a common technique in netork such a pseudowire redundancy and others if i remember correctly. > >>> > >>> Doing sequence number based live-live has of course been the > >>> standard mechanism how our retirement savings are gambled with by > >>> the financial industry - since at least hmm.. 1997 i think: market > >>> data networks. No single packet must be lost in those networks and > >>> IP multicast solutions with live-live provided that now for 20 years. > >>> > >>> Therefore it is also long time well known how to enginer SP networks > >>> to support the dual-path transmission. But to the best of my > >>> knowledge, they leave the duplication/de-duplication all to the application side. > >>> The same is true for linear TV video, where SMPTE receiver functions > >>> do support this sequence number de-duplication as a standard function. > >>> And just leave the dual path transmission to network equipment. One > >>> transport layer definition for this is RFC7198. > >>> > >>> So, IMHO we are missing a simple, but solid definition of a network > >>> devices forwarding plane functionality to duplicate with sequence > >>> number insertion (or this may come from app side) and de-duplication > >>> based on sequence number. The standard behavior of those forwarding > >>> functions is IMHO best defined based on the visible parameter of its > >>> behavior at the operator side (e.g.: Yang model) because for any > >>> such high-value service you need to have some operational parameter > >>> such as measured partially-lost/fully-lost/late etc. packets, and a > >>> definition how to measure those pretty much requires a modelling of > >>> the underlying duplicate elimination model. Maybe we could even > >>> define this standard behavior via a reference P4 program. That could > >>> be fun ;-) > >>> > >>> To make it widely applicable, the specification should really only > >>> refer to application of this forwarding plane function to > >>> packet-flows identified by other means (aka: any other form of > >>> looking up/identifying packet flows) and sequence numbers at a > >>> defineable offset into packets. Therefore staying agnostic to any > >>> specific choosen encap to carry the sequence numer. L2TPv3, RTP, any > >>> form of other L2/MPS/etc. encap i don't know - does not matter. > >>> > >>> Of course we would need to have in the same or another draft at > >>> least one reference encap option that would allow to deploy a fully > >>> standardized version of this (MPLS is fine given where SPs stand today ;-)). > >>> > >>> Wrt to some of the statements in your document: > >>> > >>> - If the replication is also inserting sequence numbers it would also > >>> be a stateful operation. > >>> > >>> - duplicate transmission in itself is not a mean to counter congestion > >>> or make rate adaptation simpller (where rate adaptation is the IETF > >>> TSV requirement for reaction to congestion). See also RFC7198. > >>> Doing rate-adaptive traffic in live-live environments would be > >>> a cool reaearch topic IMHO, but not something DetNet or the > >>> multicast use cases would immediatel profit from. > >>> > >>> Aka: The right formulation would be that live-live can help > >>> in a variety of loss situations: > >>> > >>> - total path loss on one side (link, node, linecard, ... failure). > >>> > >>> - BER type issues: loss of packets due to physcial tranmission > >>> errors - not congestion based (very common in copper, but also WiFi). > >>> > >>> - burst accumulation into queues. I think it > >>> is this case you where thinking of, but i think thats not > >>> called (ongoing) congestion, aka: it does not require > >>> downspeeding/rate adaptation. But live in queue/buffer > >>> management becomes a lot easier if you have some headroom > >>> here through live-live. > >>> > >>> - I am not sure to what degree a definition would need to get into > >>> specific platform issues such as where/how to do these functions > >>> in a distributed fashion, e.g.: on ingres or egres and the like. > >>> As an example: BIER is also a very novel forwarding plane paradigm > >>> and all the initial platforms with asic acceleration we discussed > >>> BIER with where having quite some challenges figuring out how > >>> to do it, but that did not lead to any request to discuss/document > >>> any such device internals on the IETF drafts (now to become RFC). > >>> > >>> Aka: with that recent experience in mind i would stick to the > >>> external observable behavior, well define it (including above > >>> described operator interface/diagnostics as a key component), > >>> and then see what feedback we get. > >>> > >>> Cheers > >>> Toerless > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> detnet mailing list > >>> detnet@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Sun Nov 12 19:15:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4867128AFE; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 19:15:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KYFLALg4lm8Q; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 19:15:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com [67.231.152.235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4832812896F; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 19:15:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0000695.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id vAD3FllC010365; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 19:15:47 -0800 Received: from dlb-xchpw04.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.187.124]) by mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2e73an000t-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 12 Nov 2017 19:15:47 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW04.dolby.net (10.233.7.4) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 19:15:45 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 19:15:45 -0800 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: "Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)" CC: Norman Finn , "draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , Gary Weiner Thread-Topic: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up Thread-Index: AQHTXCmMmQqSQdzZnEyiBefZOX8BbqMRoxFE Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 03:15:45 +0000 Message-ID: <2A94CDAB-BF99-43FA-BD2E-E500E89E91A7@dolby.com> References: <0E02A1E9-9450-4792-86BD-A49E317FB812@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <0E02A1E9-9450-4792-86BD-A49E317FB812@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2A94CDABBF9943FABD2EE500E89E91A7dolbycom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-11-13_01:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 03:15:54 -0000 --_000_2A94CDABBF9943FABD2EE500E89E91A7dolbycom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes I was agreeing to Tuesday. Ethan. On Nov 13, 2017, at 10:46 AM, Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) > wrote: On Tuesday. Correct ? Patrick From: detnet > on b= ehalf of "Grossman, Ethan A." > Date: Monday, 13 November 2017 at 03:43 To: Norman Finn >, "draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org" > Cc: "detnet@ietf.org" >, Gary Weiner > Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up Meet at 13:30 at IETF Registration? Ethan. From: Norman Finn [mailto:norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 4:52 PM To: Grossman, Ethan A. >; draft-i= etf-detnet-security@ietf.org Cc: Gary Weiner >; detnet= @ietf.org Subject: RE: DetNet Security Meet-Up Yes, let's get together. Right now, any time Tuesday after lunch would be = fine. -- Norm ________________________________ From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:59 AM To: draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org Cc: Gary Weiner; detnet@ietf.org Subject: DetNet Security Meet-Up Hello DetNet Security draft authors, (and adding the DetNet list since we a= re now a WG draft and would like to include anyone who has any interest), Tal and I are here in Singapore and would like to know if any of the rest o= f you might be here in town and might want to meet up over lunch or dinner = (or something) to discuss DetNet security, e.g. next steps for the DetNet S= ecurity draft. If so, please reply and we can plan something. Thanks, Ethan. Ethan Grossman, DetNet Security Draft editor. --_000_2A94CDABBF9943FABD2EE500E89E91A7dolbycom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes I was agreeing to Tuesday.
Ethan.

On Tuesday. = Correct ?

 <= /o:p>

Patrick=

 <= /o:p>

From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Grossman, Ethan A.&qu= ot; <eagros@dolby.com>
Date: Monday, 13 November 2017 at 03:43
To: Norman Finn <norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com>, "draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org" <= ;draft-ietf-detnet-s= ecurity@ietf.org>
Cc: "detnet@ietf.org&quo= t; <detnet@ietf.org>, Gary Wei= ner <Gary@Apriori-NET.COM>= ;
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up

 

Meet at 13:30 at IETF Registration?

Ethan.

 

From: Norman Finn [mailto:norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 4:52 PM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagro= s@dolby.com>; draft-ietf-detnet-se= curity@ietf.org
Cc: Gary Weiner <Gary@Apr= iori-NET.COM>; detnet@ietf.org
Subject: RE: DetNet Security Meet-Up

 

Yes, let'= s get together.  Right now, any time Tuesday after lunch would be fine= .

-- Norm

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boundary="_000_AAC987F0CC2C7845A9FBD8A36D52E12D9A53B821rrcatsexmb2atsa_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 03:28:08 -0000 --_000_AAC987F0CC2C7845A9FBD8A36D52E12D9A53B821rrcatsexmb2atsa_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I arrived today but can't make it on Tuesday at 13:30. Available from 16:0= 0. ________________________________ From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 10:15 PM To: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) Cc: Norman Finn; draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; Gary= Weiner Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up Yes I was agreeing to Tuesday. Ethan. On Nov 13, 2017, at 10:46 AM, Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) > wrote: On Tuesday. Correct ? Patrick From: detnet > on b= ehalf of "Grossman, Ethan A." > Date: Monday, 13 November 2017 at 03:43 To: Norman Finn >, "draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org" > Cc: "detnet@ietf.org" >, Gary Weiner > Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up Meet at 13:30 at IETF Registration? Ethan. From: Norman Finn [mailto:norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 4:52 PM To: Grossman, Ethan A. >; draft-i= etf-detnet-security@ietf.org Cc: Gary Weiner >; detnet= @ietf.org Subject: RE: DetNet Security Meet-Up Yes, let's get together. Right now, any time Tuesday after lunch would be = fine. -- Norm ________________________________ From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:59 AM To: draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org Cc: Gary Weiner; detnet@ietf.org Subject: DetNet Security Meet-Up Hello DetNet Security draft authors, (and adding the DetNet list since we a= re now a WG draft and would like to include anyone who has any interest), Tal and I are here in Singapore and would like to know if any of the rest o= f you might be here in town and might want to meet up over lunch or dinner = (or something) to discuss DetNet security, e.g. next steps for the DetNet S= ecurity draft. If so, please reply and we can plan something. Thanks, Ethan. Ethan Grossman, DetNet Security Draft editor. --_000_AAC987F0CC2C7845A9FBD8A36D52E12D9A53B821rrcatsexmb2atsa_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I arrived today but can't  make it on Tuesday at 13:30. Availab= le from 16:00.
From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.co= m]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 10:15 PM
To: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)
Cc: Norman Finn; draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.or= g; Gary Weiner
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up

Yes I was agreeing to Tuesday.
Ethan.

On Tuesday. Correct ?

 

Patrick

 

From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Gro= ssman, Ethan A." <eagros@dolby.com>
Date: Monday, 13 November 2017 at 03:43
To: Norman Finn <norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com>, "draft-ietf-de= tnet-security@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org&= gt;
Cc: "detne= t@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>, Gary Weiner <Gary@Apriori-NET.COM>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up

 

Meet at 13:30 at IETF Registration?

Ethan.

 

From: Norman Finn [mailto:norman.finn@mail= 01.huawei.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 4:52 PM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; dr= aft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org
Cc: Gary Weiner <Gary@Apriori-NET.COM>; detnet@ietf.org Subject: RE: DetNet Security Meet-Up

 

Yes, le= t's get together.  Right now, any time Tuesday after lunch would be fi= ne.

-- Norm

From= : Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:59 AM
To: draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org
Cc: Gary Weiner; detnet@ietf.org
Subject: DetNet Security Meet-Up

Hello DetNet Security draft authors, = (and adding the DetNet list since we are now a WG draft and would like to i= nclude anyone who has any interest),

Tal and I are here in Singapore and w= ould like to know if any of the rest of you might be here in town and might= want to meet up over lunch or dinner (or something) to discuss DetNet security, e.g. next steps for the DetNet Security draft.= If so, please reply and we can plan something.

Thanks,

Ethan.

Ethan Grossman, DetNet Security Draft= editor.

 

--_000_AAC987F0CC2C7845A9FBD8A36D52E12D9A53B821rrcatsexmb2atsa_-- From nobody Sun Nov 12 20:17:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0750127F0E; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 20:17:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 68BCqzpl3gAk; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 20:17:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com [67.231.152.235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17D03126D46; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 20:16:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0000695.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id vAD4EWDx017539; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 20:16:55 -0800 Received: from dlb-xchpw03.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.187.124]) by mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2e746p004c-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 12 Nov 2017 20:16:55 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 20:16:54 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 20:16:54 -0800 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: "Das, Subir" CC: "Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)" , Norman Finn , "draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , Gary Weiner Thread-Topic: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up Thread-Index: AQHTXCmMmQqSQdzZnEyiBefZOX8BbqMRoxFEgAABueGAAA9c7A== Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 04:16:54 +0000 Message-ID: <2F0E5E52-1E07-4EAD-8D6D-FD0903A2F49A@dolby.com> References: <0E02A1E9-9450-4792-86BD-A49E317FB812@cisco.com>, <2A94CDAB-BF99-43FA-BD2E-E500E89E91A7@dolby.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2F0E5E521E074EAD8D6DFD0903A2F49Adolbycom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-11-13_02:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 04:17:02 -0000 --_000_2F0E5E521E074EAD8D6DFD0903A2F49Adolbycom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can do Tuesday 16:00. I have a commitment Tuesday at 18:30. Ethan. On Nov 13, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Das, Subir > wrote: I arrived today but can't make it on Tuesday at 13:30. Available from 16:0= 0. ________________________________ From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 10:15 PM To: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) Cc: Norman Finn; draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; Gary Weiner Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up Yes I was agreeing to Tuesday. Ethan. On Nov 13, 2017, at 10:46 AM, Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) > wrote: On Tuesday. Correct ? Patrick From: detnet > on b= ehalf of "Grossman, Ethan A." > Date: Monday, 13 November 2017 at 03:43 To: Norman Finn >, "draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org" > Cc: "detnet@ietf.org" >, Gary Weiner > Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up Meet at 13:30 at IETF Registration? Ethan. From: Norman Finn [mailto:norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 4:52 PM To: Grossman, Ethan A. >; draft-i= etf-detnet-security@ietf.org Cc: Gary Weiner >; detnet= @ietf.org Subject: RE: DetNet Security Meet-Up Yes, let's get together. Right now, any time Tuesday after lunch would be = fine. -- Norm ________________________________ From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:59 AM To: draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org Cc: Gary Weiner; detnet@ietf.org Subject: DetNet Security Meet-Up Hello DetNet Security draft authors, (and adding the DetNet list since we a= re now a WG draft and would like to include anyone who has any interest), Tal and I are here in Singapore and would like to know if any of the rest o= f you might be here in town and might want to meet up over lunch or dinner = (or something) to discuss DetNet security, e.g. next steps for the DetNet S= ecurity draft. If so, please reply and we can plan something. Thanks, Ethan. Ethan Grossman, DetNet Security Draft editor. --_000_2F0E5E521E074EAD8D6DFD0903A2F49Adolbycom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I can do Tuesday 16:00. I have a commitment Tuesday at 18:30. 
Ethan.

On Nov 13, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Das, Subir <sdas@appcomsci.com> wrote:

I arrived today but can't  make it on Tuesday at 13:30. Availab= le from 16:00.
From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 10:15 PM
To: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)
Cc: Norman Finn; draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; Gary Weiner
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up

Yes I was agreeing to Tuesday.
Ethan.

On Nov 13, 2017, at 10:46 AM, Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) <pwetterw@cisco.com> wro= te:

On Tuesday. Correct ?

 

Patrick

 

From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Gro= ssman, Ethan A." <eagros@dolby.com>
Date: Monday, 13 November 2017 at 03:43
To: Norman Finn <norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com>, "draft-ietf-de= tnet-security@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org&= gt;
Cc: "detne= t@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>, Gary Weiner <Gary@Apriori-NET.COM>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up

 

Meet at 13:30 at IETF Registration?

Ethan.

 

From: Norman Finn [mailto:norman.finn@mail= 01.huawei.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 4:52 PM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; dr= aft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org
Cc: Gary Weiner <Gary@Apriori-NET.COM>; detnet@ietf.org Subject: RE: DetNet Security Meet-Up

 

Yes, le= t's get together.  Right now, any time Tuesday after lunch would be fi= ne.

-- Norm

From= : Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:59 AM
To: draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org
Cc: Gary Weiner; detnet@ietf.org
Subject: DetNet Security Meet-Up

Hello DetNet Security draft authors, = (and adding the DetNet list since we are now a WG draft and would like to i= nclude anyone who has any interest),

Tal and I are here in Singapore and w= ould like to know if any of the rest of you might be here in town and might= want to meet up over lunch or dinner (or something) to discuss DetNet security, e.g. next steps for the DetNet Security draft.= If so, please reply and we can plan something.

Thanks,

Ethan.

Ethan Grossman, DetNet Security Draft= editor.

 

--_000_2F0E5E521E074EAD8D6DFD0903A2F49Adolbycom_-- From nobody Sun Nov 12 20:18:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5247E129469 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 20:17:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yY8NjLKeNPAg for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 20:17:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp4.epfl.ch (smtp4.epfl.ch [IPv6:2001:620:618:1e0:1:80b2:e059:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8053A1293EC for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 20:17:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 52277 invoked by uid 107); 13 Nov 2017 04:17:44 -0000 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV Received: from unknown (HELO [IPv6:2001:67c:1232:144:6843:bac7:f5d8:152f]) (2001:67c:1232:144:6843:bac7:f5d8:152f) (TLS, ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (UNDEF curve) cipher) (authenticated) by mail.epfl.ch (AngelmatoPhylax SMTP proxy) with ESMTPSA; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 05:17:45 +0100 X-EPFL-Auth: B3PRDmGaFgme1A7oIDGFCJRGn2DD0ejCflTwTU+U+4Qd0ySY3iM= From: Jean-Yves Le Boudec To: detnet@ietf.org References: Message-ID: <5ce748f1-50c0-f7a8-96e9-1259df99380f@epfl.ch> Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 05:17:44 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------3C195D96DE9D2D06421600A1" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 04:17:59 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3C195D96DE9D2D06421600A1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bala'zs in draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-04 is mentioned the possibility of a flow format: DetNet-s-flow: specific format of a DetNet flow. Only requires the replication/elimination feature ensured by the DetNet service layer. Does this mean that there can be flows that receive duplication but are not receiving 0 congestion loss ? (the word "format" is not clear to me in this context). If this means that indeed some flows can receive packet duplication without being subject to reservation, then this may cause congestion control issues. JY >Some clarification questions on draft for better understanding: >> Similarly one copy of a packet may be subjected to congestion discard >What do You mean here by congestion discard? Detnet flows are assuming "zero congestion loss". >See e.g., draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-04, chapter 3.2.1. Congestion protection OR >draft-finn-bounded-latency-00, chapter 4.2. Achieving zero congestion lo --------------3C195D96DE9D2D06421600A1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bala'zs

in draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-04 is mentioned the possibility of a flow format: 

DetNet-s-flow: specific format of a DetNet flow.  Only requires
      the replication/elimination feature ensured by the DetNet service
      layer.

Does this mean that there can be flows that receive duplication but are not receiving 0 congestion loss ? (the word "format" is not clear to me in this context).

If this means that indeed some flows can receive packet duplication without being subject to reservation, then this may cause congestion control issues.

JY

>Some clarification questions on draft for better understanding:
>>   Similarly one copy of a packet may be subjected to congestion discard
>What do You mean here by congestion discard? Detnet flows are assuming "zero congestion loss".
>See e.g., draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-04, chapter 3.2.1. Congestion protection OR
>draft-finn-bounded-latency-00, chapter 4.2. Achieving zero congestion lo

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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:VI1PR07MB1008; H:VI1PR07MB1005.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: ericsson.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_VI1PR07MB10054B8C78C521A93FB46945AC2B0VI1PR07MB1005eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: bde2197f-06f6-469c-154a-08d52a5a526c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Nov 2017 05:49:35.9625 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB1008 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA02SXUhTYRzGe3fO2TkbjY5L8Y/pzSgic8vMi5kRy4y8EexC0pnpyqMOv9bO /CoQSwSxMpcfOYPU/EiblppOL0xyCblQJ2JqgvhJIWpZEVqG5vEt8O73Ps/z8j4PvAwhr6c8 GH2qiTOm6pIVYilpiegKUt7wk2h9ZzvV6s3vj0l187K/RhTSkG8lQurqfonCRFrpmTguWZ/B GU+cjZUmzpZu04aqS1kjTR/JXOS8WIgkDLD+UFk2JipEUkbOvkXQ1PiAEAw5O4Ag74mXwCR7 nwCbwxWHykWwUW0l8WEBwcv+97s3xOwF+FEwJxbYlY2CjbW1XT7IBkHlaBvC+nnIe/pnJ8/s sB8MDGbiB47A8LyTEmQZewWq66NxhyQoWX9ICyxhA+HRl4rdCGK9YK5FLcgE6w5Ti1UivIWF uh4ngdkNlha2KMwBMD3xVYzZC0ar7iKhPbB2GmaXyklsqKDTvIowh8Ls4ooYhywIPsyP/TO8 wTI9iIQSsFNueigUy6ehwPyOwvkxCqwrNhobnrAwbqax0UzB9u0mGi/j4FlLPipGPpV7VmBO g9baelpgGesCDssiiXUVTJaVijEfh4aaZQKzEiq27ORevRrRz5Ebz/F8SoLfKRVn1F/n+bRU VSpnakc7n6evY1PZjazL5+yIZZBiv8yplGjllC6Dz06xI2AIhausf4bRymVxuuybnDEtxpie zPF2dIghFe4yTe9IhJxN0Jm4JI4zcMb/roiReOSi8Nx7UZ2JvjO6qtVIZ4Xyd1tJuaasuy99 iXodMzXkU/RKG21eqR3WFEUem8u5Fq8/3LHucueoIznkata4ylYcBm4h+vBvPQb1Z/OM0hEQ VR07Eexhaq7p+GTp7dkYfHMrh06nOlT98REZ+6IPXG4NzLQFz7UOTRY3ehpedP1sV5B8ou6k N2HkdX8BlH0DxDgDAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 05:49:42 -0000 --_000_VI1PR07MB10054B8C78C521A93FB46945AC2B0VI1PR07MB1005eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi JY, I would refer here to Figure2. Replication/elimination is done by the Servi= ce layer. Also "4.2.1. End system" shows the end-system types. "... End systems with DetNet functionalities may have the same or different= transport layer as the connected DetNet domain. ... " So a "DetNet-s-flow" means that the transport layers of the end-system and = the detnet domain are different. For example and Ethernet-TSN-end-host is connected to an MPLS based DetNet = domain, however the end-system is aware of replication/elimination and add seq.num to the origi= nated flow. I hope that clarifies, that no congestion control issues are caused. Reserv= ation is always a must before sending any DetNet flows to the network. Cheers Bala'zs From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Yves Le Bou= dec Sent: 2017. november 13. 12:18 To: detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination Hi Bala'zs in draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-04 is mentioned the possibility of a flow= format: DetNet-s-flow: specific format of a DetNet flow. Only requires the replication/elimination feature ensured by the DetNet service layer. Does this mean that there can be flows that receive duplication but are not= receiving 0 congestion loss ? (the word "format" is not clear to me in thi= s context). If this means that indeed some flows can receive packet duplication without= being subject to reservation, then this may cause congestion control issue= s. JY >Some clarification questions on draft for better understanding: >> Similarly one copy of a packet may be subjected to congestion discard >What do You mean here by congestion discard? Detnet flows are assuming "ze= ro congestion loss". >See e.g., draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-04, chapter 3.2.1. Congestion pro= tection OR >draft-finn-bounded-latency-00, chapter 4.2. Achieving zero congestion lo --_000_VI1PR07MB10054B8C78C521A93FB46945AC2B0VI1PR07MB1005eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi JY,

 

I would refer here = to Figure2. Replication/elimination is done by the Service layer.

Also “4.2.1. = End system” shows the end-system types.

“… End = systems with DetNet functionalities may have the same or different transpor= t layer as the

connected DetNet do= main.  … “

 

So a “DetNet-= s-flow” means that the transport layers of the end-system and the det= net domain are different.

For example and Eth= ernet-TSN-end-host is connected to an MPLS based DetNet domain, however the

end-system is aware= of replication/elimination and add seq.num to the originated flow.

 

I hope that clarifi= es, that no congestion control issues are caused. Reservation is always a m= ust before sending

any DetNet flows to= the network.

 

Cheers

Bala’zs<= /o:p>

 

From:= detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Yves Le Boudec
Sent: 2017. november 13. 12:18
To: detnet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination

 

Hi Bala'zs

in draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-0= 4 is mentioned the possibility of a flow format: 

DetNet-s-flow: specific format of a DetNet flow.  Only r=
equires
      the replication/elimination feature ens=
ured by the DetNet service
      layer.

Does this mean that there can be fl= ows that receive duplication but are not receiving 0 congestion loss ? (the= word "format" is not clear to me in this context).

If this means that indeed some flow= s can receive packet duplication without being subject to reservation, then= this may cause congestion control issues.

JY

>Some clarification questions on draft for b=
etter understanding:
>>   Similarly one copy of a pa=
cket may be subjected to congestion discard
>What do You mean here by congestion discard=
? Detnet flows are assuming "zero congestion loss".
>See e.g., draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-04=
, chapter 3.2.1. Congestion protection OR
>draft-finn-bounded-latency-00, chapter 4.2.=
 Achieving zero congestion lo
 

 

--_000_VI1PR07MB10054B8C78C521A93FB46945AC2B0VI1PR07MB1005eurp_-- From nobody Sun Nov 12 23:44:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 249AE128D8B for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 23:44:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.209 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.209 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LAJifdodZg2y for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 23:44:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com (lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com [194.213.3.62]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A132128D19 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 23:44:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.65 (EHLO DFWPML706-CHM.exmail.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.65]) by lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BLM34942; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 07:44:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.1.143]) by DFWPML706-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([10.124.31.210]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 23:44:30 -0800 From: Norman Finn To: =?Windows-1252?Q?Bal=E1zs_Varga_A?= , Jean-Yves Le Boudec , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination Thread-Index: AQHTXDZawkohMRicPEubhRmXoLl3b6MSVA6A//+ZJCU= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 07:44:30 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9C72@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> References: <5ce748f1-50c0-f7a8-96e9-1259df99380f@epfl.ch>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.4.33] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9C72DFWPML704CHMexmai_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020206.5A094D62.00DF, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.1.143, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 20e5e825ffb941a6c9da4cb4e2ec705e Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 07:44:41 -0000 --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9C72DFWPML704CHMexmai_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Packet replication and bounded latency are two different features, and can = be chosen independently. If you pick neither, then you have no DetNet. Yo= u can pick both (which, in some cases, requires extra buffering). Replicat= ion without bounded latency reservations is the way it's used a lot, today,= with IEC 62439-3. -- Norm ________________________________ From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Bal=E1zs Varga A [balaz= s.a.varga@ericsson.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 9:49 PM To: Jean-Yves Le Boudec; detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination Hi JY, I would refer here to Figure2. Replication/elimination is done by the Servi= ce layer. Also =934.2.1. End system=94 shows the end-system types. =93=85 End systems with DetNet functionalities may have the same or differe= nt transport layer as the connected DetNet domain. =85 =93 So a =93DetNet-s-flow=94 means that the transport layers of the end-system = and the detnet domain are different. For example and Ethernet-TSN-end-host is connected to an MPLS based DetNet = domain, however the end-system is aware of replication/elimination and add seq.num to the origi= nated flow. I hope that clarifies, that no congestion control issues are caused. Reserv= ation is always a must before sending any DetNet flows to the network. Cheers Bala=92zs From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Yves Le Bou= dec Sent: 2017. november 13. 12:18 To: detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination Hi Bala'zs in draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-04 is mentioned the possibility of a flow= format: DetNet-s-flow: specific format of a DetNet flow. Only requires the replication/elimination feature ensured by the DetNet service layer. Does this mean that there can be flows that receive duplication but are not= receiving 0 congestion loss ? (the word "format" is not clear to me in thi= s context). If this means that indeed some flows can receive packet duplication without= being subject to reservation, then this may cause congestion control issue= s. JY >Some clarification questions on draft for better understanding: >> Similarly one copy of a packet may be subjected to congestion discard >What do You mean here by congestion discard? Detnet flows are assuming "ze= ro congestion loss". >See e.g., draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-04, chapter 3.2.1. Congestion pro= tection OR >draft-finn-bounded-latency-00, chapter 4.2. Achieving zero congestion lo --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9C72DFWPML704CHMexmai_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Packet replication and bounded latency are two different features, a= nd can be chosen independently.  If you pick neither, then you have no= DetNet.  You can pick both (which, in some cases, requires extra buffering).  Replication without bounded l= atency reservations is the way it's used a lot, today, with IEC 62439-3.
-- Norm

From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on= behalf of Bal=E1zs Varga A [balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 9:49 PM
To: Jean-Yves Le Boudec; detnet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination

Hi JY,

 

I would refer here = to Figure2. Replication/elimination is done by the Service layer.

Also =934.2.1. End = system=94 shows the end-system types.

=93=85 End systems = with DetNet functionalities may have the same or different transport layer = as the

connected DetNet do= main.  =85 =93

 

So a =93DetNet-s-fl= ow=94 means that the transport layers of the end-system and the detnet doma= in are different.

For example and Eth= ernet-TSN-end-host is connected to an MPLS based DetNet domain, however the

end-system is aware= of replication/elimination and add seq.num to the originated flow.<= /p>

 

I hope that clarifi= es, that no congestion control issues are caused. Reservation is always a m= ust before sending

any DetNet flows to= the network.

 

Cheers

Bala=92zs

 

From:= detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Yves Le Boudec
Sent: 2017. november 13. 12:18
To: detnet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination

 

Hi Bala'zs

in draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-0= 4 is mentioned the possibility of a flow format: 

DetN=
et-s-flow: specific format of a DetNet flow.  Only requires
      the replication/elimination feature ens=
ured by the DetNet service
      layer.

Does this mean that there can be fl= ows that receive duplication but are not receiving 0 congestion loss ? (the= word "format" is not clear to me in this context).

If this means that indeed some flow= s can receive packet duplication without being subject to reservation, then= this may cause congestion control issues.

JY

>Some=
 clarification questions on draft for better understanding:
>>   Similarly one copy of a =
packet may be subjected to congestion discard
>What do You mean here by congestion disca=
rd? Detnet flows are assuming "zero congestion loss".

>See e.g., draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-=
04, chapter 3.2.1. Congestion protection OR


>draft-finn-bounded-latency-00, chapter 4.=
2. Achieving zero congestion lo


 


 
--_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9C72DFWPML704CHMexmai_-- From nobody Sun Nov 12 23:48:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BDC212008A; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 23:48:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eOdSmnzuOiPt; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 23:48:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from dggwg11-dlp.huawei.com (lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com [194.213.3.62]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47455128D8B; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 23:48:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from DFWPML706-CHM.exmail.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.65]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 70923CACC3292; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 07:47:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.1.143]) by DFWPML706-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([10.124.31.210]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Sun, 12 Nov 2017 23:47:46 -0800 From: Norman Finn To: "Grossman, Ethan A." , "Das, Subir" CC: "Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)" , "draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , Gary Weiner Thread-Topic: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up Thread-Index: AQHTXCmMmQqSQdzZnEyiBefZOX8BbqMRoxFEgAABueGAAA9c7IAAOtDl Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 07:47:45 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9CDA@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> References: <0E02A1E9-9450-4792-86BD-A49E317FB812@cisco.com>, <2A94CDAB-BF99-43FA-BD2E-E500E89E91A7@dolby.com>, , <2F0E5E52-1E07-4EAD-8D6D-FD0903A2F49A@dolby.com> In-Reply-To: <2F0E5E52-1E07-4EAD-8D6D-FD0903A2F49A@dolby.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.4.33] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9CDADFWPML704CHMexmai_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 07:48:18 -0000 --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9CDADFWPML704CHMexmai_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sounds like Tuesday 16:00. Right? Near registration. -- Norm ________________________________ From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 8:16 PM To: Das, Subir Cc: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw); Norman Finn; draft-ietf-detnet-security@= ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; Gary Weiner Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up I can do Tuesday 16:00. I have a commitment Tuesday at 18:30. Ethan. On Nov 13, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Das, Subir > wrote: I arrived today but can't make it on Tuesday at 13:30. Available from 16:0= 0. ________________________________ From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 10:15 PM To: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) Cc: Norman Finn; draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; Gary Weiner Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up Yes I was agreeing to Tuesday. Ethan. On Nov 13, 2017, at 10:46 AM, Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) > wrote: On Tuesday. Correct ? Patrick From: detnet > on b= ehalf of "Grossman, Ethan A." > Date: Monday, 13 November 2017 at 03:43 To: Norman Finn >, "draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org" > Cc: "detnet@ietf.org" >, Gary Weiner > Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up Meet at 13:30 at IETF Registration? Ethan. From: Norman Finn [mailto:norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 4:52 PM To: Grossman, Ethan A. >; draft-i= etf-detnet-security@ietf.org Cc: Gary Weiner >; detnet= @ietf.org Subject: RE: DetNet Security Meet-Up Yes, let's get together. Right now, any time Tuesday after lunch would be = fine. -- Norm ________________________________ From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:59 AM To: draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org Cc: Gary Weiner; detnet@ietf.org Subject: DetNet Security Meet-Up Hello DetNet Security draft authors, (and adding the DetNet list since we a= re now a WG draft and would like to include anyone who has any interest), Tal and I are here in Singapore and would like to know if any of the rest o= f you might be here in town and might want to meet up over lunch or dinner = (or something) to discuss DetNet security, e.g. next steps for the DetNet S= ecurity draft. If so, please reply and we can plan something. Thanks, Ethan. Ethan Grossman, DetNet Security Draft editor. --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9CDADFWPML704CHMexmai_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sounds like Tuesday 16:00.  Right?  Near registration.

-- Norm

From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.co= m]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 8:16 PM
To: Das, Subir
Cc: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw); Norman Finn; draft-ietf-detnet-se= curity@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; Gary Weiner
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up

I can do Tuesday 16:00. I have a commitment Tuesday at 18:30. 
Ethan.

On Nov 13, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Das, Subir <sdas@appcomsci.com> wrote:

I arrived today but can't  make it on Tuesday at 13:30. Available= from 16:00.
From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 10:15 PM
To: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)
Cc: Norman Finn; draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; Gary Weiner
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up

Yes I was agreeing to Tuesday.
Ethan.

On Nov 13, 2017, at 10:46 AM, Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) <pwetterw@cisco.com> wro= te:

On Tuesday. Correct ?

 

Patrick

 

From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Gro= ssman, Ethan A." <eagros@dolby.com>
Date: Monday, 13 November 2017 at 03:43
To: Norman Finn <norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com>, "draft-ietf-de= tnet-security@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org&= gt;
Cc: "detne= t@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>, Gary Weiner <Gary@Apriori-NET.COM>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up

 

Meet at 13:30 at IETF Registration?

Ethan.

 

From: Norman Finn [mailto:norman.finn@mail= 01.huawei.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 4:52 PM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; dr= aft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org
Cc: Gary Weiner <Gary@Apriori-NET.COM>; detnet@ietf.org Subject: RE: DetNet Security Meet-Up

 

Yes, le= t's get together.  Right now, any time Tuesday after lunch would be fi= ne.

-- Norm

From= : Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:59 AM
To: draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org
Cc: Gary Weiner; detnet@ietf.org
Subject: DetNet Security Meet-Up

Hello DetNet Security draft authors, = (and adding the DetNet list since we are now a WG draft and would like to i= nclude anyone who has any interest),

Tal and I are here in Singapore and w= ould like to know if any of the rest of you might be here in town and might= want to meet up over lunch or dinner (or something) to discuss DetNet security, e.g. next steps for the DetNet Security draft.= If so, please reply and we can plan something.

Thanks,

Ethan.

Ethan Grossman, DetNet Security Draft= editor.

 

--_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9CDADFWPML704CHMexmai_-- From nobody Mon Nov 13 01:17:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1BD1294E6; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 01:17:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pNMpiyhK6858; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 01:17:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com [67.231.144.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0209A120713; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 01:17:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0045961.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id vAD94OoR017109; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 01:06:42 -0800 Received: from dlb-xchpw04.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.187.124]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2e5wm5vu7c-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 13 Nov 2017 01:06:42 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW04.dolby.net (10.233.7.4) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 01:06:40 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 01:06:40 -0800 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: Norman Finn CC: "Das, Subir" , "detnet@ietf.org" , Gary Weiner , "draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org" , "Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up Thread-Index: AQHTXCmMmQqSQdzZnEyiBefZOX8BbqMRoxFEgAABueGAAA9c7IAAOtDlgAAWJoY= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 09:06:40 +0000 Message-ID: <9AD83680-69B8-454A-B83C-7DF934B20B4C@dolby.com> References: <0E02A1E9-9450-4792-86BD-A49E317FB812@cisco.com>, <2A94CDAB-BF99-43FA-BD2E-E500E89E91A7@dolby.com>, , <2F0E5E52-1E07-4EAD-8D6D-FD0903A2F49A@dolby.com>, <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9CDA@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9CDA@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9AD8368069B8454AB83C7DF934B20B4Cdolbycom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-11-13_04:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 09:17:53 -0000 --_000_9AD8368069B8454AB83C7DF934B20B4Cdolbycom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tal does this work for you? Ethan. On Nov 13, 2017, at 3:48 PM, Norman Finn > wrote: Sounds like Tuesday 16:00. Right? Near registration. -- Norm ________________________________ From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 8:16 PM To: Das, Subir Cc: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw); Norman Finn; draft-ietf-detnet-security@= ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; Gary Weiner Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up I can do Tuesday 16:00. I have a commitment Tuesday at 18:30. Ethan. On Nov 13, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Das, Subir > wrote: I arrived today but can't make it on Tuesday at 13:30. Available from 16:0= 0. ________________________________ From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 10:15 PM To: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) Cc: Norman Finn; draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; Gary Weiner Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up Yes I was agreeing to Tuesday. Ethan. On Nov 13, 2017, at 10:46 AM, Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) > wrote: On Tuesday. Correct ? Patrick From: detnet > on b= ehalf of "Grossman, Ethan A." > Date: Monday, 13 November 2017 at 03:43 To: Norman Finn >, "draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org" > Cc: "detnet@ietf.org" >, Gary Weiner > Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up Meet at 13:30 at IETF Registration? Ethan. From: Norman Finn [mailto:norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 4:52 PM To: Grossman, Ethan A. >; draft-i= etf-detnet-security@ietf.org Cc: Gary Weiner >; detnet= @ietf.org Subject: RE: DetNet Security Meet-Up Yes, let's get together. Right now, any time Tuesday after lunch would be = fine. -- Norm ________________________________ From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:59 AM To: draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org Cc: Gary Weiner; detnet@ietf.org Subject: DetNet Security Meet-Up Hello DetNet Security draft authors, (and adding the DetNet list since we a= re now a WG draft and would like to include anyone who has any interest), Tal and I are here in Singapore and would like to know if any of the rest o= f you might be here in town and might want to meet up over lunch or dinner = (or something) to discuss DetNet security, e.g. next steps for the DetNet S= ecurity draft. If so, please reply and we can plan something. Thanks, Ethan. Ethan Grossman, DetNet Security Draft editor. _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet --_000_9AD8368069B8454AB83C7DF934B20B4Cdolbycom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tal does this work for you?
Ethan.

On Nov 13, 2017, at 3:48 PM, Norman Finn <norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com> wrote:

Sounds like Tuesday 16:00.  Right?  Near registration.

-- Norm

From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 8:16 PM
To: Das, Subir
Cc: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw); Norman Finn; draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; Gary Weiner
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up

I can do Tuesday 16:00. I have a commitment Tuesday at 18:30. 
Ethan.

On Nov 13, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Das, Subir <sdas@appcomsci.com> wrote:

I arrived today but can't  make it on Tuesday at 13:30. Available= from 16:00.
From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 10:15 PM
To: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)
Cc: Norman Finn; draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; Gary Weiner
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up

Yes I was agreeing to Tuesday.
Ethan.

On Nov 13, 2017, at 10:46 AM, Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) <pwetterw@cisco.com> wro= te:

On Tuesday. Correct ?

 

Patrick

 

From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Gro= ssman, Ethan A." <eagros@dolby.com>
Date: Monday, 13 November 2017 at 03:43
To: Norman Finn <norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com>, "draft-ietf-de= tnet-security@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org&= gt;
Cc: "detne= t@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>, Gary Weiner <Gary@Apriori-NET.COM>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up

 

Meet at 13:30 at IETF Registration?

Ethan.

 

From: Norman Finn [mailto:norman.finn@mail= 01.huawei.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 4:52 PM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; dr= aft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org
Cc: Gary Weiner <Gary@Apriori-NET.COM>; detnet@ietf.org Subject: RE: DetNet Security Meet-Up

 

Yes, le= t's get together.  Right now, any time Tuesday after lunch would be fi= ne.

-- Norm

From= : Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:59 AM
To: draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org
Cc: Gary Weiner; detnet@ietf.org
Subject: DetNet Security Meet-Up

Hello DetNet Security draft authors, = (and adding the DetNet list since we are now a WG draft and would like to i= nclude anyone who has any interest),

Tal and I are here in Singapore and w= ould like to know if any of the rest of you might be here in town and might= want to meet up over lunch or dinner (or something) to discuss DetNet security, e.g. next steps for the DetNet Security draft.= If so, please reply and we can plan something.

Thanks,

Ethan.

Ethan Grossman, DetNet Security Draft= editor.

 

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
--_000_9AD8368069B8454AB83C7DF934B20B4Cdolbycom_-- From nobody Mon Nov 13 22:37:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C0B5127342 for ; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 22:37:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DtiVkmt5Xxsq for ; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 22:37:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com (lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com [194.213.3.62]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79FA812717E for ; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 22:37:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.65 (EHLO dfwpml705-chm.exmail.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.65]) by lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BLM61836; Tue, 14 Nov 2017 06:37:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.1.143]) by dfwpml705-chm.exmail.huawei.com ([10.124.31.209]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 22:37:13 -0800 From: Norman Finn To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Varga_A?= , "Stewart Bryant" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination Thread-Index: AQHTW0JHwkohMRicPEubhRmXoLl3b6MSLY+AgAFBfUY= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 06:37:12 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9EE2@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.4.33] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020201.5A0A8F1D.00C0, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.1.143, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 20e5e825ffb941a6c9da4cb4e2ec705e Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 06:37:22 -0000 Packet replication is a separate feature from bounded latency / 0 congestio= n loss. You can use replication without bounded latency, and vice versa. = Of course, if your network is more than lightly loaded, packet replication = as a reliability tool is likely to backfire. But, they are separate.=0A= =0A= -- Norm=0A= =0A= ________________________________________=0A= From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Bal=E1zs Varga A [balaz= s.a.varga@ericsson.com]=0A= Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 7:24 PM=0A= To: Stewart Bryant; detnet@ietf.org=0A= Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination=0A= =0A= Hi Stewart,=0A= =0A= Some clarification questions on draft for better understanding:=0A= > Similarly one copy of a packet may be subjected to congestion discard= =0A= What do You mean here by congestion discard? Detnet flows are assuming "zer= o congestion loss".=0A= See e.g., draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-04, chapter 3.2.1. Congestion prot= ection OR=0A= draft-finn-bounded-latency-00, chapter 4.2. Achieving zero congestion loss= =0A= =0A= > Elimination may be configured to restrict the number of copies of a=0A= > packet to one, or it may permit a larger number of copies to proceed.= =0A= Permit a larger number of copies to proceed is further increase the number = of states for the eliminator.=0A= Why not assume an "elimintaion+replication" combination function if multipl= e copies required after=0A= such a (partial-)elimination?=0A= =0A= > Elimination in a network where there are a non-trivial number of=0A= > detnet flows will require access to data-structures that cannot be=0A= What do You mean by "non-trivial number of detnet flows"? There is always a= path setup/resource reservation in=0A= the network before starting a detnet flow. So the number of detent flows mu= st be known.=0A= =0A= Thanks & Cheers=0A= Bala'zs=0A= =0A= -----Original Message-----=0A= From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant= =0A= Sent: 2017. november 12. 7:10=0A= To: detnet@ietf.org=0A= Subject: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination=0A= =0A= =0A= I had some thoughts on how to look at replication and elimination.=0A= =0A= I have written them up in draft format, although whether I upload the draft= or not is to be determined. However I though that there was more to the is= sue than a simple email would easily handle.=0A= =0A= However in in view of the uploading embago, and considering the shortness o= f the draft, I am posting it to the list so that it can be discussed.=0A= =0A= - Stewart=0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= detnet mailing list=0A= detnet@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=0A= From nobody Mon Nov 13 22:39:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 868DB12717E for ; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 22:39:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t18VmM4Pxy4P for ; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 22:39:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com (lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com [194.213.3.62]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 561F5128B8D for ; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 22:39:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.65 (EHLO dfwpml705-chm.exmail.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.65]) by lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BLM61876; Tue, 14 Nov 2017 06:39:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.1.143]) by dfwpml705-chm.exmail.huawei.com ([10.124.31.209]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Mon, 13 Nov 2017 22:39:08 -0800 From: Norman Finn To: =?Windows-1252?Q?Bal=E1zs_Varga_A?= , Jean-Yves Le Boudec , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination Thread-Index: AQHTXDZawkohMRicPEubhRmXoLl3b6MSVA6AgAEZrkM= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 06:39:08 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9EEF@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> References: <5ce748f1-50c0-f7a8-96e9-1259df99380f@epfl.ch>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.4.33] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9EEFDFWPML704CHMexmai_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090201.5A0A8F92.0009, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.1.143, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 20e5e825ffb941a6c9da4cb4e2ec705e Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 06:39:19 -0000 --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9EEFDFWPML704CHMexmai_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I disagree with your last paragraph, Balazs. At least in IEEE, and in the = Architecture document, PREF without a reservation is allowed. I know it's = true in TSN; if it's not true in the Architecture draft I need to fix it. -- Norm ________________________________ From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Bal=E1zs Varga A [balaz= s.a.varga@ericsson.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 9:49 PM To: Jean-Yves Le Boudec; detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination Hi JY, I would refer here to Figure2. Replication/elimination is done by the Servi= ce layer. Also =934.2.1. End system=94 shows the end-system types. =93=85 End systems with DetNet functionalities may have the same or differe= nt transport layer as the connected DetNet domain. =85 =93 So a =93DetNet-s-flow=94 means that the transport layers of the end-system = and the detnet domain are different. For example and Ethernet-TSN-end-host is connected to an MPLS based DetNet = domain, however the end-system is aware of replication/elimination and add seq.num to the origi= nated flow. I hope that clarifies, that no congestion control issues are caused. Reserv= ation is always a must before sending any DetNet flows to the network. Cheers Bala=92zs From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Yves Le Bou= dec Sent: 2017. november 13. 12:18 To: detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination Hi Bala'zs in draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-04 is mentioned the possibility of a flow= format: DetNet-s-flow: specific format of a DetNet flow. Only requires the replication/elimination feature ensured by the DetNet service layer. Does this mean that there can be flows that receive duplication but are not= receiving 0 congestion loss ? (the word "format" is not clear to me in thi= s context). If this means that indeed some flows can receive packet duplication without= being subject to reservation, then this may cause congestion control issue= s. JY >Some clarification questions on draft for better understanding: >> Similarly one copy of a packet may be subjected to congestion discard >What do You mean here by congestion discard? Detnet flows are assuming "ze= ro congestion loss". >See e.g., draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-04, chapter 3.2.1. Congestion pro= tection OR >draft-finn-bounded-latency-00, chapter 4.2. Achieving zero congestion lo --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE9EEFDFWPML704CHMexmai_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I disagree with your last paragraph, Balazs.  At least in IEEE,= and in the Architecture document, PREF without a reservation is allowed.&n= bsp; I know it's true in TSN; if it's not true in the Architecture draft I need to fix it.

-- Norm

From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on= behalf of Bal=E1zs Varga A [balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 9:49 PM
To: Jean-Yves Le Boudec; detnet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination

Hi JY,

 

I would refer here = to Figure2. Replication/elimination is done by the Service layer.

Also =934.2.1. End = system=94 shows the end-system types.

=93=85 End systems = with DetNet functionalities may have the same or different transport layer = as the

connected DetNet do= main.  =85 =93

 

So a =93DetNet-s-fl= ow=94 means that the transport layers of the end-system and the detnet doma= in are different.

For example and Eth= ernet-TSN-end-host is connected to an MPLS based DetNet domain, however the

end-system is aware= of replication/elimination and add seq.num to the originated flow.<= /p>

 

I hope that clarifi= es, that no congestion control issues are caused. Reservation is always a m= ust before sending

any DetNet flows to= the network.

 

Cheers

Bala=92zs

 

From:= detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Yves Le Boudec
Sent: 2017. november 13. 12:18
To: detnet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination

 

Hi Bala'zs

in draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-0= 4 is mentioned the possibility of a flow format: 

DetN=
et-s-flow: specific format of a DetNet flow.  Only requires
      the replication/elimination feature ens=
ured by the DetNet service
      layer.

Does this mean that there can be fl= ows that receive duplication but are not receiving 0 congestion loss ? (the= word "format" is not clear to me in this context).

If this means that indeed some flow= s can receive packet duplication without being subject to reservation, then= this may cause congestion control issues.

JY

>Some=
 clarification questions on draft for better understanding:
>>   Similarly one copy of a =
packet may be subjected to congestion discard
>What do You mean here by congestion disca=
rd? Detnet flows are assuming "zero congestion loss".

>See e.g., draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-=
04, chapter 3.2.1. Congestion protection OR


>draft-finn-bounded-latency-00, chapter 4.=
2. Achieving zero congestion lo


 


 
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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ack. I wanted to say configuration and not reservation. Before sending DetNet traffic the network must be prepared. What DetNet functions are needed depends on the flow and the network scenar= io. Sorry about the confusion (and my bad english). Bala'zs From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Norman Finn Sent: 2017. november 14. 14:39 To: Bal=E1zs Varga A ; Jean-Yves Le Boudec ; detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination I disagree with your last paragraph, Balazs. At least in IEEE, and in the = Architecture document, PREF without a reservation is allowed. I know it's = true in TSN; if it's not true in the Architecture draft I need to fix it. -- Norm ________________________________ From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Bal=E1zs Varga A [balaz= s.a.varga@ericsson.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 9:49 PM To: Jean-Yves Le Boudec; detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination Hi JY, I would refer here to Figure2. Replication/elimination is done by the Servi= ce layer. Also "4.2.1. End system" shows the end-system types. "... End systems with DetNet functionalities may have the same or different= transport layer as the connected DetNet domain. ... " So a "DetNet-s-flow" means that the transport layers of the end-system and = the detnet domain are different. For example and Ethernet-TSN-end-host is connected to an MPLS based DetNet = domain, however the end-system is aware of replication/elimination and add seq.num to the origi= nated flow. I hope that clarifies, that no congestion control issues are caused. Reserv= ation is always a must before sending any DetNet flows to the network. Cheers Bala'zs From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Yves Le Bou= dec Sent: 2017. november 13. 12:18 To: detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination Hi Bala'zs in draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-04 is mentioned the possibility of a flow= format: DetNet-s-flow: specific format of a DetNet flow. Only requires the replication/elimination feature ensured by the DetNet service layer. Does this mean that there can be flows that receive duplication but are not= receiving 0 congestion loss ? (the word "format" is not clear to me in thi= s context). If this means that indeed some flows can receive packet duplication without= being subject to reservation, then this may cause congestion control issue= s. JY >Some clarification questions on draft for better understanding: >> Similarly one copy of a packet may be subjected to congestion discard >What do You mean here by congestion discard? Detnet flows are assuming "ze= ro congestion loss". >See e.g., draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-04, chapter 3.2.1. Congestion pro= tection OR >draft-finn-bounded-latency-00, chapter 4.2. Achieving zero congestion lo --_000_VI1PR07MB10054D9D71BBD829075D8039AC280VI1PR07MB1005eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ack. I wanted to sa= y configuration and not reservation.

Before sending DetN= et traffic the network must be prepared.

What DetNet functio= ns are needed depends on the flow and the network scenario.

Sorry about the con= fusion (and my bad english).

Bala’zs<= /o:p>

 

From:= detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Norman Finn
Sent: 2017. november 14. 14:39
To: Bal=E1zs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; Jean-Yves = Le Boudec <jean-yves.leboudec@epfl.ch>; detnet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination

 

I disagree with your = last paragraph, Balazs.  At least in IEEE, and in the Architecture doc= ument, PREF without a reservation is allowed.  I know it's true in TSN; if it's not true in the Architecture draft I need to fix= it.

-- Norm

From: d= etnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Bal=E1zs Varga A [balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 9:49 PM
To: Jean-Yves Le Boudec; detnet@i= etf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination

Hi JY,<= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

I would refer here = to Figure2. Replication/elimination is done by the Service layer.

Also “4.2.1. = End system” shows the end-system types.

“… End = systems with DetNet functionalities may have the same or different transpor= t layer as the

connected DetNet do= main.  … “

 <= /o:p>

So a “DetNet-= s-flow” means that the transport layers of the end-system and the det= net domain are different.

For example and Eth= ernet-TSN-end-host is connected to an MPLS based DetNet domain, however the

end-system is aware= of replication/elimination and add seq.num to the originated flow.<= o:p>

 <= /o:p>

I hope that clarifi= es, that no congestion control issues are caused. Reservation is always a m= ust before sending

any DetNet flows to= the network.

 <= /o:p>

Cheers<= /o:p>

Bala’zs

 <= /o:p>

From:= detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Yves Le Boudec
Sent: 2017. november 13. 12:18
To: detnet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Some thoughts on Replication and Elimination

 

Hi Bala'zs

in dra= ft-ietf-detnet-architecture-04 is mentioned the possibility of a flow forma= t: 

DetNet-=
s-flow: specific format of a DetNet flow.  Only requires

      the replication/elimination feature ens=
ured by the DetNet service


      layer.


Does t=
his mean that there can be flows that receive duplication but are not recei=
ving 0 congestion loss ? (the word "format" is not clear to me in=
 this context).



If thi=
s means that indeed some flows can receive packet duplication without being=
 subject to reservation, then this may cause congestion control issues.


JY


>Some clarific=
ation questions on draft for better understanding:


>>   Similarly one copy of a pa=
cket may be subjected to congestion discard


>What do You mean here by congestion discard=
? Detnet flows are assuming "zero congestion loss".


>See e.g., draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-04=
, chapter 3.2.1. Congestion protection OR


>draft-finn-bounded-latency-00, chapter 4.2.=
 Achieving zero congestion lo


 


 
--_000_VI1PR07MB10054D9D71BBD829075D8039AC280VI1PR07MB1005eurp_-- From nobody Tue Nov 14 18:41:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FF73129443 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2017 18:41:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zlTsKyyoSHCd for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2017 18:41:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com [67.231.144.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 503C2129484 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2017 18:41:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0045961.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id vAF2dpK4012472 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2017 18:41:50 -0800 Received: from dlb-xchpw04.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.187.124]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2e7p39kn89-2 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2017 18:41:50 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW04.dolby.net (10.233.7.4) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Tue, 14 Nov 2017 18:41:48 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Tue, 14 Nov 2017 18:41:48 -0800 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Recent discussions on DetNet Security draft 15Nov17 Thread-Index: AdNdu0Rn6e0qOr1ASmG6pDqDmV54cA== Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 02:41:48 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.233.7.60] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_ccaf3d1f2f0e4ccc8ec41f0b35e5c6a9DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-11-14_13:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Recent discussions on DetNet Security draft 15Nov17 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 02:41:57 -0000 --_000_ccaf3d1f2f0e4ccc8ec41f0b35e5c6a9DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here are my notes on recent offline email and yesterday's informal meet-up = related to the DetNet Security draft as of 15Nov17. If anyone has any addit= ions, corrections or relevant thoughts please reply with them. Ethan. ---------------------------------------------------- Ethan's proposal that the DetNet WG should engage with the IETF Security Di= rectorate to provide early input to the DetNet Security draft, or possibly = assign a Security Advisor to the WG was discussed. We concluded that this w= as not called for until 1) More concrete decisions have been made about the specific protocols= to be used by DetNet 2) The nature of any modifications to these protocols that we will req= uire has been determined 3) The security implications of any such changes have been examined Jean-Yves mentioned that an academic paper was published which showed that = a successful attack against a time protocol had been carried out by modifyi= ng (via hardware) the differential path delays of a fiber optic link, resul= ting in a modification of the receiver's time reference. Presumably this is= not a DetNet specific item and should be publicized to the Time Protocol S= ecurity draft - Jean-Yves to send Tal the link. Pascal pointed out that we could discuss attacks on the UNI, e.g. buffering= . Norm observed that in general for DetNet if you are concerned about data in= tegrity you need to secure your data "in the usual way". However there are = also some specific security related requirements implied by the current des= ign must go into arch draft. Two examples: 1) If doing zero congestion loss, bounded latency, then it is often ne= cessary for DetNet relay nodes to be able to determine the Flow ID to assig= n it to the proper class of service. E.g. per-flow queues. To determine the= Flow ID they either need to look deep enough into the packet or it must be= exported outside the packet. Can't expect the relay node to look far into = aggregate flows. So however you secure the packet, you must not obscure the= Flow ID. 2) For PREF, there is a tunnel (security relationship) from whoever is= creating the sequence numbers to whoever is eliminating packets. Such PREF= can be done in various places in the network. At intermediate points they = are peers, protecting the sequence number. So each has to decrypt and re-en= crypt it. The eliminator has to be able to read the sequence number (not mo= dify it). Replicator doesn't need to know seq num. We discussed whether the DetNet Security draft was intended to become an RF= C, and if so would it be Informational or perhaps Best Current Practices? (= Presumably this would be determined by the WG Chairs, but we discussed it a= nyway in their absence). Or perhaps the intent was to just use it as a clea= ring house for security related information that eventually would be copied= as needed into the architecture drafts (data plane, etc) and then eventual= ly allowed to expire. It was pointed out that if it is Informational it can= not be normatively referenced by the Arch drafts, so probably multiple copi= es of the same information would be present in each of the Arch drafts, and= that a possible strategy would be to have them all point to the Security d= raft. Then there was discussion of which types of info would go in an Arch draft = vs the Security draft. For example the Arch draft might say the "what" had = to be done, and the Security draft could say "how" it could be done. Or the= Arch draft could say both "what" and "how" in a general sense (e.g. "must = be encrypted") and the Security draft would provide specifics of this. For = example for interoperability of implementations, we could say "must support= at least e.g. SHA 256". But must have a way to evolve e.g. crypto. They do= that in QUICC. Not just "must be a good enough crypto". For example Norm specifies where the seq number is written, read, obscured.= The Sec draft could then reference the Arch draft, then provide more speci= fics. The Arch doc reader needs to know where to find the "how", and know t= hat there is a solution. The Security draft could continue to address architecture-level topics such= as threat analysis which are informational in nature; this could be either= the main focus of it as an informational draft, or could be the appendix t= o a BCP draft which might include more protocol specific and possibly norma= tive information, i.e. if it described any required behavior. Concentrating the security info in the Security draft takes burden off of A= rch authors, i.e. the work is done by sec experts not forwarding experts. A= negative of this is that it means one more doc to put through RFC process,= which Pascal is concerned that the administration increasingly want to min= imize. Jean-Yves points out that the DetNet Charter includes arch, data pla= ne, security aspects. It was noted that if you reference another draft, your draft can't be publi= shed until the reference is published - we would not want the Arch drafts t= o be held up by the Security draft. Deborah pointed out that the current Sec draft includes info about Control = plane which is out of scope for DetNet. Current thought is to move that inf= o into an appendix for future reference. ------------------------------------------------------ --_000_ccaf3d1f2f0e4ccc8ec41f0b35e5c6a9DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here are my notes on recent offline emai= l and yesterday’s informal meet-up related to the DetNet Security dra= ft as of 15Nov17. If anyone has any additions, corrections or relevant thou= ghts please reply with them.
Ethan.
----------------------------------------= ------------
Ethan’s proposal that the DetNet W= G should engage with the IETF Security Directorate to provide early input t= o the DetNet Security draft, or possibly assign a Security Advisor to the W= G was discussed. We concluded that this was not called for until
  1. More concrete decisions have been made ab= out the specific protocols to be used by DetNet
  2. The nature of any modifications to these protocols that we will = require has been determined
  3. The secur= ity implications of any such changes have been examined
Jean-Yves mentioned that an academic pap= er was published which showed that a successful attack against a time proto= col had been carried out by modifying (via hardware) the differential path = delays of a fiber optic link, resulting in a modification of the receiver’s time reference. Presumably this i= s not a DetNet specific item and should be publicized to the Time Protocol = Security draft – Jean-Yves to send Tal the link.  
Pascal pointed out that we could discuss= attacks on the UNI, e.g. buffering.
Norm observed that in general for DetNet= if you are concerned about data integrity you need to secure your data = 220;in the usual way”. However there are also some specific security = related requirements implied by the current design must go into arch draft. Two examples:
  1. If doing zero congestion loss, bounded la= tency, then it is often necessary for DetNet relay nodes to be able to dete= rmine the Flow ID to assign it to the proper class of service. E.g. per-flo= w queues. To determine the Flow ID they either need to look deep enough into the packet or it must be exported= outside the packet. Can’t expect the relay node to look far into agg= regate flows. So however you secure the packet, you must not obscure the Fl= ow ID.
  2. For PREF, there is a tunnel (= security relationship) from whoever is creating the sequence numbers to who= ever is eliminating packets. Such PREF can be done in various places in the= network. At intermediate points they are peers, protecting the sequence number. So each has to decrypt and re-encrypt it. T= he eliminator has to be able to read the sequence number (not modify it). R= eplicator doesn’t need to know seq num.
We discussed whether the DetNet Security= draft was intended to become an RFC, and if so would it be Informational o= r perhaps Best Current Practices? (Presumably this would be determined by t= he WG Chairs, but we discussed it anyway in their absence). Or perhaps the intent was to just use it as a cle= aring house for security related information that eventually would be copie= d as needed into the architecture drafts (data plane, etc) and then eventua= lly allowed to expire. It was pointed out that if it is Informational it cannot be normatively referenced by the = Arch drafts, so probably multiple copies of the same information would be p= resent in each of the Arch drafts, and that a possible strategy would be to= have them all point to the Security draft.
Then there was discussion of which types= of info would go in an Arch draft vs the Security draft. For example the A= rch draft might say the “what” had to be done, and the Security= draft could say “how” it could be done. Or the Arch draft could say both “what” and “how” in a gen= eral sense (e.g. “must be encrypted”) and the Security draft wo= uld provide specifics of this. For example for interoperability of implemen= tations, we could say “must support at least e.g. SHA 256”. But= must have a way to evolve e.g. crypto. They do that in QUICC. Not just “mu= st be a good enough crypto”.
For example Norm specifies where the seq= number is written, read, obscured. The Sec draft could then reference the = Arch draft, then provide more specifics. The Arch doc reader needs to know = where to find the “how”, and know that there is a solution.
The Security draft could continue to add= ress architecture-level topics such as threat analysis which are informatio= nal in nature; this could be either the main focus of it as an informationa= l draft, or could be the appendix to a BCP draft which might include more protocol specific and possibly norm= ative information, i.e. if it described any required behavior.
Concentrating the security info in the S= ecurity draft takes burden off of Arch authors, i.e. the work is done by se= c experts not forwarding experts. A negative of this is that it means one m= ore doc to put through RFC process, which Pascal is concerned that the administration increasingly want to mini= mize. Jean-Yves points out that the DetNet Charter includes arch, data plan= e, security aspects. 
It was noted that if you reference anoth= er draft, your draft can’t be published until the reference is publis= hed – we would not want the Arch drafts to be held up by the Security= draft.
Deborah pointed out that the current Sec= draft includes info about Control plane which is out of scope for DetNet. = Current thought is to move that info into an appendix for future reference.=
----------------------------------------= --------------
 
 
 --_000_ccaf3d1f2f0e4ccc8ec41f0b35e5c6a9DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_-- From nobody Tue Nov 14 19:48:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A789D1294D8 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2017 19:47:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0kNF1yKuMzh8 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2017 19:47:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from dggwg11-dlp.huawei.com (lhrrg11-dlp.huawei.com [194.213.3.61]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06B7C127522 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2017 19:47:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfwpml705-chm.exmail.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.65]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 44252EAA80007; Wed, 15 Nov 2017 03:47:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.1.143]) by dfwpml705-chm.exmail.huawei.com ([10.124.31.209]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Tue, 14 Nov 2017 19:47:39 -0800 From: Norman Finn To: "Grossman, Ethan A." , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Recent discussions on DetNet Security draft 15Nov17 Thread-Index: AdNdu0Rn6e0qOr1ASmG6pDqDmV54cAAB5M4c Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 03:47:38 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA0A6@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.4.35] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA0A6DFWPML704CHMexmai_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Recent discussions on DetNet Security draft 15Nov17 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 03:48:00 -0000 --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA0A6DFWPML704CHMexmai_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable THANKS, Ethan. Some comments in-line. ________________________________ From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Grossman, Ethan A. [eag= ros@dolby.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 6:41 PM To: detnet@ietf.org Subject: [Detnet] Recent discussions on DetNet Security draft 15Nov17 Here are my notes on recent offline email and yesterday=92s informal meet-u= p related to the DetNet Security draft as of 15Nov17. If anyone has any add= itions, corrections or relevant thoughts please reply with them. Ethan. ---------------------------------------------------- Ethan=92s proposal that the DetNet WG should engage with the IETF Security = Directorate to provide early input to the DetNet Security draft, or possibl= y assign a Security Advisor to the WG was discussed. We concluded that this= was not called for until 1. More concrete decisions have been made about the specific protocols t= o be used by DetNet 2. The nature of any modifications to these protocols that we will requi= re has been determined 3. The security implications of any such changes have been examined Jean-Yves mentioned that an academic paper was published which showed that = a successful attack against a time protocol had been carried out by modifyi= ng (via hardware) the differential path delays of a fiber optic link, resul= ting in a modification of the receiver=92s time reference. Presumably this = is not a DetNet specific item and should be publicized to the Time Protocol= Security draft =96 Jean-Yves to send Tal the link. Pascal pointed out that we could discuss attacks on the UNI, e.g. buffering= . Norm observed that in general for DetNet if you are concerned about data in= tegrity you need to secure your data =93in the usual way=94. However there = are also some specific security related requirements implied by the current= design must go into arch draft. Two examples: 1. If doing zero congestion loss, bounded latency, then it is often nece= ssary for DetNet relay nodes to be able to determine the Flow ID to assign = it to the proper class of service. E.g. per-flow queues. To determine the F= low ID they either need to look deep enough into the packet or it must be e= xported outside the packet. Can=92t expect the relay node to look far into = aggregate flows. So however you secure the packet, you must not obscure the= Flow ID. 2. For PREF, there is a tunnel (security relationship) from whoever is c= reating the sequence numbers to whoever is eliminating packets. Such PREF c= an be done in various places in the network. At intermediate points they ar= e peers, protecting the sequence number. So each has to decrypt and re-encr= ypt it. The eliminator has to be able to read the sequence number (not modi= fy it). Replicator doesn=92t need to know seq num. Yes, I said this. But I take it back. :) As someone mentioned (Tal= ?), the trust relationship is between the guy that adds the sequence number= and the guy that removes the sequence number. Sometimes the sequence numb= er goes end-to-end source to destination, sometimes its added/deleted by ne= twork edge devices. The adder and remover(s) have the relationship because= they're the ones that ensure that the sequence numbers are not modifiable.= Between those two points, there may or may not be replication and elimina= tion functions. The elimination function(s) are between the sequence numbe= r adder and remover(s). The elimination functions must be able to see the = sequence numbers. Therefore any encryption that is done between adders and= removers must not obscure the sequence number. (If the sequence removers = and the eliminators are in the same box, you can usually get away with obsc= uring the sequence number, but it's a layer violation, and someday, you'll = be sorry.) We discussed whether the DetNet Security draft was intended to become an RF= C, and if so would it be Informational or perhaps Best Current Practices? (= Presumably this would be determined by the WG Chairs, but we discussed it a= nyway in their absence). Or perhaps the intent was to just use it as a clea= ring house for security related information that eventually would be copied= as needed into the architecture drafts (data plane, etc) and then eventual= ly allowed to expire. It was pointed out that if it is Informational it can= not be normatively referenced by the Arch drafts, so probably multiple copi= es of the same information would be present in each of the Arch drafts, and= that a possible strategy would be to have them all point to the Security d= raft. Then there was discussion of which types of info would go in an Arch draft = vs the Security draft. For example the Arch draft might say the =93what=94 = had to be done, and the Security draft could say =93how=94 it could be done= . Or the Arch draft could say both =93what=94 and =93how=94 in a general se= nse (e.g. =93must be encrypted=94) and the Security draft would provide spe= cifics of this. For example for interoperability of implementations, we cou= ld say =93must support at least e.g. SHA 256=94. But must have a way to evo= lve e.g. crypto. They do that in QUICC. Not just =93must be a good enough c= rypto=94. For example Norm specifies where the seq number is written, read, obscured.= The Sec draft could then reference the Arch draft, then provide more speci= fics. The Arch doc reader needs to know where to find the =93how=94, and kn= ow that there is a solution. Norm specifies? Well, the architecture document does. Pascal and Ba= l=E1zs made it right. The Security draft could continue to address architecture-level topics such= as threat analysis which are informational in nature; this could be either= the main focus of it as an informational draft, or could be the appendix t= o a BCP draft which might include more protocol specific and possibly norma= tive information, i.e. if it described any required behavior. Concentrating the security info in the Security draft takes burden off of A= rch authors, i.e. the work is done by sec experts not forwarding experts. A= negative of this is that it means one more doc to put through RFC process,= which Pascal is concerned that the administration increasingly want to min= imize. Jean-Yves points out that the DetNet Charter includes arch, data pla= ne, security aspects. It was noted that if you reference another draft, your draft can=92t be pub= lished until the reference is published =96 we would not want the Arch draf= ts to be held up by the Security draft. Deborah pointed out that the current Sec draft includes info about Control = plane which is out of scope for DetNet. Current thought is to move that inf= o into an appendix for future reference. ------------------------------------------------------ --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA0A6DFWPML704CHMexmai_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
THANKS, Ethan.  Some comments in-line.

From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on= behalf of Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 6:41 PM
To: detnet@ietf.org
Subject: [Detnet] Recent discussions on DetNet Security draft 15Nov1= 7

Here are my notes on recent offline email= and yesterday=92s informal meet-up related to the DetNet Security draft as= of 15Nov17. If anyone has any additions, corrections or relevant thoughts = please reply with them.
Ethan.
-----------------------------------------= -----------
Ethan=92s proposal that the DetNet WG sho= uld engage with the IETF Security Directorate to provide early input to the= DetNet Security draft, or possibly assign a Security Advisor to the WG was= discussed. We concluded that this was not called for until
  1. More concrete decisions have been made abo= ut the specific protocols to be used by DetNet
  2. The nature of any modifications to these protocols that we will re= quire has been determined
  3. The security= implications of any such changes have been examined
Jean-Yves mentioned that an academic pape= r was published which showed that a successful attack against a time protoc= ol had been carried out by modifying (via hardware) the differential path d= elays of a fiber optic link, resulting in a modification of the receiver=92s time reference. Presumably this is n= ot a DetNet specific item and should be publicized to the Time Protocol Sec= urity draft =96 Jean-Yves to send Tal the link.  
Pascal pointed out that we could discuss = attacks on the UNI, e.g. buffering.
Norm observed that in general for DetNet = if you are concerned about data integrity you need to secure your data =93i= n the usual way=94. However there are also some specific security related r= equirements implied by the current design must go into arch draft. Two examples:
  1. If doing zero congestion loss, bounded lat= ency, then it is often necessary for DetNet relay nodes to be able to deter= mine the Flow ID to assign it to the proper class of service. E.g. per-flow= queues. To determine the Flow ID they either need to look deep enough into the packet or it must be exporte= d outside the packet. Can=92t expect the relay node to look far into aggreg= ate flows. So however you secure the packet, you must not obscure the Flow = ID.
  2. For PREF, there is a tunnel (security= relationship) from whoever is creating the sequence numbers to whoever is = eliminating packets. Such PREF can be done in various places in the network= . At intermediate points they are peers, protecting the sequence number. So each has to decrypt and re-encrypt it. = The eliminator has to be able to read the sequence number (not modify it). = Replicator doesn=92t need to know seq num.

<NWF> Yes, I said this.  But I take it back.  :)  A= s someone mentioned (Tal?), the trust relationship is between the guy that = adds the sequence number and the guy that removes the sequence number. = ; Sometimes the sequence number goes end-to-end source to destination, sometimes its added/deleted by network edge devices.  Th= e adder and remover(s) have the relationship because they're the ones that = ensure that the sequence numbers are not modifiable.  Between those tw= o points, there may or may not be replication and elimination functions.  The elimination function(s) are between t= he sequence number adder and remover(s).  The elimination functions mu= st be able to see the sequence numbers.  Therefore any encryption that= is done between adders and removers must not obscure the sequence number.  (If the sequence removers and the eliminators a= re in the same box, you can usually get away with obscuring the sequence nu= mber, but it's a layer violation, and someday, you'll be sorry.)


We discussed whether the DetNet Security = draft was intended to become an RFC, and if so would it be Informational or= perhaps Best Current Practices? (Presumably this would be determined by th= e WG Chairs, but we discussed it anyway in their absence). Or perhaps the intent was to just use it as a clearing = house for security related information that eventually would be copied as n= eeded into the architecture drafts (data plane, etc) and then eventually al= lowed to expire. It was pointed out that if it is Informational it cannot be normatively referenced by the= Arch drafts, so probably multiple copies of the same information would be = present in each of the Arch drafts, and that a possible strategy would be t= o have them all point to the Security draft.
Then there was discussion of which types = of info would go in an Arch draft vs the Security draft. For example the Ar= ch draft might say the =93what=94 had to be done, and the Security draft co= uld say =93how=94 it could be done. Or the Arch draft could say both =93what=94 and =93how=94 in a general sense (e.g= . =93must be encrypted=94) and the Security draft would provide specifics o= f this. For example for interoperability of implementations, we could say = =93must support at least e.g. SHA 256=94. But must have a way to evolve e.g. crypto. They do that in QUICC. Not just =93must = be a good enough crypto=94.
For example Norm specifies where the seq = number is written, read, obscured. The Sec draft could then reference the A= rch draft, then provide more specifics. The Arch doc reader needs to know w= here to find the =93how=94, and know that there is a solution.
<NWF> Norm specifies?  Well, t= he architecture document does.  Pascal and Bal=E1zs made it right.
The Security draft could continue to addr= ess architecture-level topics such as threat analysis which are information= al in nature; this could be either the main focus of it as an informational= draft, or could be the appendix to a BCP draft which might include more protocol specific and possibly normat= ive information, i.e. if it described any required behavior.
Concentrating the security info in the Se= curity draft takes burden off of Arch authors, i.e. the work is done by sec= experts not forwarding experts. A negative of this is that it means one mo= re doc to put through RFC process, which Pascal is concerned that the administration increasingly want to min= imize. Jean-Yves points out that the DetNet Charter includes arch, data pla= ne, security aspects. 
It was noted that if you reference anothe= r draft, your draft can=92t be published until the reference is published = =96 we would not want the Arch drafts to be held up by the Security draft.
Deborah pointed out that the current Sec = draft includes info about Control plane which is out of scope for DetNet. C= urrent thought is to move that info into an appendix for future reference.
-----------------------------------------= -------------
 
 
--_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA0A6DFWPML704CHMexmai_-- From nobody Wed Nov 15 17:51:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34DD9124D68 for ; Wed, 15 Nov 2017 17:51:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8XdsRyqfzvuN for ; Wed, 15 Nov 2017 17:51:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy7-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy7-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [70.40.196.235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91376120227 for ; 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bh=nHdcT2WG1h1wpDhYbqNaizf83cF1Tnl+ZZxTvymkVjw=; b=nU190PQjn16z036GOBzyfczT3X WYv3q/P0TjjHbFWtClDZcHxv273swfOhMRhaY2nSvdkm2SasngvFaOl1WKQG5+0ownYvnDLCr8ruJ KJsxeShVg8VOYGgUaP6CjusbP; Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:58068 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1eF9Fz-002FFK-Pl for detnet@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Nov 2017 18:46:20 -0700 To: detnet@ietf.org From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 09:46:16 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1eF9Fz-002FFK-Pl X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.86.101]:58068 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 6 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] etherpad X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 01:51:46 -0000 Please join etherpad and help add to / correct the notes: http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-100-detnet Thank you, Lou From nobody Wed Nov 15 18:03:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E1FF127867 for ; 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Wed, 15 Nov 2017 18:02:39 -0800 From: Norman Finn To: "huang.guangping@zte.com.cn" , Ethan Grossman CC: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Question about using blockchain as DetNe use case Thread-Index: AdNefTmgyaH4TMSNTWe00bGvTTMieg== Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 02:02:39 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA56F@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.4.35] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA56FDFWPML704CHMexmai_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020206.5A0CF1C7.001A, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.1.143, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: c1fcfc0fdd3e95ff849b08ab6560d09f Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Question about using blockchain as DetNe use case X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 02:03:02 -0000 --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA56FDFWPML704CHMexmai_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know little about the applications bitcoin. I can easily appreciate its = need for reliability, but I have a question about bandwidth. Are bitcoin applications comfortable with the fixed bandwidth aspect of Det= Net? That is, an app cannot exceed the BW of a flow, and unused BW is not availa= ble to other DetNet flows. So, I take it that bitcoin is either not bursty= , or can afford wasted bandwidth. -- Norm --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA56FDFWPML704CHMexmai_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I know little about the applications bitcoin.  I can easily app= reciate its need for reliability, but I have a question about bandwidth.
Are bitcoin applications comfortable with the fixed bandwidth aspect of Det= Net?

That is, an app cannot exceed the BW of a flow, and unused BW is not availa= ble to other DetNet flows.  So, I take it that bitcoin is either not b= ursty, or can afford wasted bandwidth.

-- Norm
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Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgUXVlc3Rpb24gYWJvdXQgdXNpbmcgYmxv?= =?utf-8?q?ckchain_as_DetNe_use_case?= X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 02:41:35 -0000 --=====_001_next===== Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="=====_002_next=====" --=====_002_next===== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====_003_next=====" --=====_003_next===== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 aGkgTm9ybSwgDQoNCg0KYml0Y29pbiBpcyBhY3R1YWxseSBhIHB1YmxpYyBibG9ja2NoYWluIHdo aWNoIGlzIHJ1bm5pbmcgaW4gdGhlIG9wZW4gaW50ZXJuZXQuIGhlcmUgd2UncmUgYWRkcmVzcyBz cGVjaWZpY2FsbHkgdGhlIHByaXZhdGUgYmxvY2tjaGFpbi4NCg0KDQpibG9ja2NoYWluIHJ1bnMg aW4gYSBtb2RlIG9mIHAybXAgYW1vbmcgaXRzIHBhcnRpY2lwYXRpbmcgbm9kZXMgd2hpbGUgaXQn 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autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hXmzobn-E_SD; Wed, 15 Nov 2017 19:32:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 274B4127010; Wed, 15 Nov 2017 19:32:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 818AA58C527; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 04:32:02 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 6C6A3B0D1B2; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 04:32:02 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 04:32:02 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: detnet@ietf.org, draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases@ietf.org Message-ID: <20171116033202.GX19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases & slices suggestions X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 03:32:11 -0000 Wrt to my comments on the mike@singapore re. slicing use-case: First of all i would like to reinforce Stewarts statement that we should not remove slicing from the use-case draft. My point was different: making the importance for detnet in slicing clearer - because i think it is hierarchical and multi-faceted, and that does not well reflect in the current text. Following suggestions for improvements aside, the existing text of 10. is already very nicely enlightening about slices, more so than i have seen in other places. A) I would not call 10.1 "Use Case Description" but instead "Technology Description" B) 10.3 up to the the "However" is IMHO the most fundamental use-case for detnet in the slicing realm. It should be moved and become e.g.: a new 10.2.1 use-case, here is proposed changed paragraphs: 10.2.1 Hard resource isolation across slices |Network slicing aims to provide logical networks with hard resource |separation guarantees between those different logical networks. |Hard resource separation means that it should be impossible for activity, |lack of activity, or changes in activity of one or more slices to have |any appreciable effect on the deterministic performance parameters of any |other slices. |Typical techniques used today (for example in pre-existing logical/virtual |network solutions), which share a physical network amongst users, do |not offer this kind of insulation. DetNet can supply point-to-point |or point-to-multipoint paths that offer bandwidth and latency |guarantees to a slice that cannot be affected by other slices data |traffic. I hope i did correctly interpret "user" to mean "slice", because, but even if not, i think the above is correct: If we want to have strict separation guarantees btween different users inside the same clice, that is IMHO a separate use case within the slicing technology: C) I would group existing 10.2.1...10.2.3 under a common use-case, maybe: 10.2.2 Deterministic services within slices Slices need to be able to provide services that require detnet type guarantees. These requirements would equally make the use of detnet for these services a requirement if the service was not provided via a logical network slice but via a separate physcial network (and therefore the use-case requirement of 10.2.1 would not exist) A 5G bearer network is a typical ... [ Make existing 10.2.1...10.2.3 become eg: 10.2.2.1 ... 10.2.2.3] D) It would be nice to have more clarifying details about the sentence "A 5G bearer network is a typical use case of network slicing, including 3 service scenarios" If the answer to my questions are not really clear because 3GPP has not make up its mind what exactly is required, then maybe phrase the text accordingly (3GPP has not yet decided where or...): 1. Will 3GPP want to have slices which are NOT 5G bearer networks ? if yes, then say this. 2. For a network slice which is a 5G bearer network, would it have only one of the 3 service scenarios, or any subset of the 3 ? 3. If the answer to 1. is "yes, also slices that are not 3GPP bearers", would any or all of the three mentioned service scenarios also be required in those non-3GPP slices ? E) It might be useful to add text stating that use cases for detnet mentioned in other sections of the document would likely become use cases of slices in the future. Possible suggested text: Even though not necesary within the scope of work explicitly charted for slices in 5G: Whenever 5G or other network service providers see the opportunity to operate services described as use-cases in other sections of this document across a shared physcial infrastructure, network slices would be the likely preferred approach to provide such services. Examples include providing electrical utilities services (section 3.) or pro audio services (section 2.) via slices. Use cases like these could become more into the focus for network slices when the work for 5G core network evolution will include services that are more inclusive of even wired access options required in those use-cases. F) Another likely evolution of slices worthwhile to notice: Slices may equally become the preferred mode of providing services that are otherwise considered to be out of scope in this document, such as those in 12.2. These can easily come into scope when Mobile Edge Compute ressources connecting to slices can allow to provide detnet service guarantees to these use-cases by eliminating the uncontrolled parts of a path between servers and client. Cheers Toerless On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 09:06:40AM +0000, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > Tal does this work for you? > Ethan. > > On Nov 13, 2017, at 3:48 PM, Norman Finn > wrote: > > Sounds like Tuesday 16:00. Right? Near registration. > > -- Norm > > ________________________________ > From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 8:16 PM > To: Das, Subir > Cc: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw); Norman Finn; draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; Gary Weiner > Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up > > I can do Tuesday 16:00. I have a commitment Tuesday at 18:30. > Ethan. > > On Nov 13, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Das, Subir > wrote: > > I arrived today but can't make it on Tuesday at 13:30. Available from 16:00. > ________________________________ > From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 10:15 PM > To: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) > Cc: Norman Finn; draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; Gary Weiner > Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up > > Yes I was agreeing to Tuesday. > Ethan. > > On Nov 13, 2017, at 10:46 AM, Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) > wrote: > > On Tuesday. Correct ? > > Patrick > > From: detnet > on behalf of "Grossman, Ethan A." > > Date: Monday, 13 November 2017 at 03:43 > To: Norman Finn >, "draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org" > > Cc: "detnet@ietf.org" >, Gary Weiner > > Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up > > Meet at 13:30 at IETF Registration? > Ethan. > > From: Norman Finn [mailto:norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com] > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 4:52 PM > To: Grossman, Ethan A. >; draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org > Cc: Gary Weiner >; detnet@ietf.org > Subject: RE: DetNet Security Meet-Up > > Yes, let's get together. Right now, any time Tuesday after lunch would be fine. > > -- Norm > ________________________________ > From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:59 AM > To: draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org > Cc: Gary Weiner; detnet@ietf.org > Subject: DetNet Security Meet-Up > Hello DetNet Security draft authors, (and adding the DetNet list since we are now a WG draft and would like to include anyone who has any interest), > Tal and I are here in Singapore and would like to know if any of the rest of you might be here in town and might want to meet up over lunch or dinner (or something) to discuss DetNet security, e.g. next steps for the DetNet Security draft. If so, please reply and we can plan something. > Thanks, > Ethan. > Ethan Grossman, DetNet Security Draft editor. > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Wed Nov 15 22:19:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1C1B129510; Wed, 15 Nov 2017 22:19:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f-cRB_ynrKoz; Wed, 15 Nov 2017 22:19:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBD74126C19; Wed, 15 Nov 2017 22:19:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id AE2742941149; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 06:19:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMA423-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.156) by lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.43) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.361.1; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 06:19:03 +0000 Received: from DGGEMA501-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.162]) by dggema423-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.198.156]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 14:18:56 +0800 From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" To: Toerless Eckert , "detnet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases & slices suggestions Thread-Index: AQHTXouCnOES7TjcIkSI7Vuob/v/M6MWiDMw Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 06:18:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20171116033202.GX19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <20171116033202.GX19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.52.34.11] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1kZXRuZXQtdXNlLWNhc2Vz?= =?gb2312?b?ICYgc2xpY2VzIHN1Z2dlc3Rpb25z?= X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 06:19:08 -0000 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(PST) From: Pat Thaler Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 00:22:57 -0800 Message-ID: To: detnet@ietf.org, =?UTF-8?Q?J=C3=A1nos_Farkas?= , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Varga_A?= , Rodney Cummings , Jiangyuanlong , zhayiyong Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0574bcd9506c055e155327" Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Regarding IPR on draft draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 08:23:02 -0000 --94eb2c0574bcd9506c055e155327 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Authors, Contributors, WG, As part of the preparation for WG Adoption Call: Are you aware of any IPR that applies to drafts identified above? Please state either: "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" or "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 for more details)? If yes to the above, please state either: "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" or "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think appropriate. If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next stage until a response has been received from each author and listed contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO LINES. If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above and http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. Thank you, DetNet WG Chairs PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your response. --94eb2c0574bcd9506c055e155327 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Authors, Contributors, WG,
As part of the preparation for WG Adoption Call:

Are you aware of any=C2=A0IPR= =C2=A0that applies to drafts identified above?

Please state either:

"No, I'= m not aware of any=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0that applies to this draft= "
or
"Y= es, I'm aware of=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0that applies to this dra= ft"

If so, has this=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0been disclosed in compliance with IETF=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0rules
(see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 fo= r more details)?

If yes to the above, plea= se state either:

"Yes, the=C2=A0IPR= =C2=A0has been disclosed in compliance with IETF=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0rules"
or
"No, the=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0has not been di= sclosed"

If you answer no, please pro= vide any additional details you think
appropri= ate.

If you are listed as a document autho= r or contributor please answer the
above by re= sponding to this email regardless of whether or not you are
aware of any relevant=C2=A0IPR. This document= will not advance to the next
stage until a re= sponse has been received from each author and listed
contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAG= E'S
TO LINES.

If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not list= ed
as an author or contributor, we remind you = of your obligations under
the IETF=C2=A0IPR<= /span>=C2=A0rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are=
aware of=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0of oth= ers on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from
participating in any contribution or discussion related to yourundisclosed=C2=A0IPR. For more informat= ion, please see the RFCs listed above
and
= http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualPrope= rty.

Thank y= ou,
DetNet WG Chairs

PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your=
response.
--94eb2c0574bcd9506c055e155327-- From nobody Thu Nov 16 01:00:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49749129490 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 01:00:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yBuTWFNrFITO for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 01:00:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09A66129439 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 01:00:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML713-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 2AD36F95E98E; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 09:00:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.49) by LHREML713-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.361.1; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 09:00:35 +0000 Received: from DGGEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.221]) by dggeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.49]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 17:00:27 +0800 From: Jiangyuanlong To: Pat Thaler , =?utf-8?B?SsOhbm9zIEZhcmthcw==?= , =?utf-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBWYXJnYSBB?= , Rodney Cummings , zhayiyong CC: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Regarding IPR on draft draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model Thread-Index: AQHTXrQjwS9U6GW4l0KlgHaIeSYE5KMWs7Mg Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 09:00:25 +0000 Message-ID: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68BBB634D70@dggeml507-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN 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autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sF6QbrL2vAS3 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 04:39:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from know-smtprelay-omc-7.server.virginmedia.net (know-smtprelay-omc-7.server.virginmedia.net [80.0.253.71]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 412831294A3 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 04:39:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] ([82.21.85.55]) by know-smtprelay-7-imp with bizsmtp id acfm1w00S1BdnUJ01cfoEK; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:39:50 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [82.21.85.55] X-Authenticated-User: X-Spam: 0 X-Authority: v=2.1 cv=Ms6vkDue c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=JBiNpTwF/IB2dYUHhn0UHw==:117 a=JBiNpTwF/IB2dYUHhn0UHw==:17 a=L9H7d07YOLsA:10 a=9cW_t1CCXrUA:10 a=s5jvgZ67dGcA:10 a=le6d79QuAAAA:8 a=bqYnu0I-8YE1OWjO4_oA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=d57Tc1jlmBHq2RgfJ_YA:9 a=eoG7cajSfPnVG61R:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=QbAMNLWdp4a7deKPGBBn:22 From: John Grant Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-460--47159746 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:39:44 +0000 In-Reply-To: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA56F@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> To: DetNet WG References: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA56F@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Question about using blockchain as DetNe use case X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:39:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail-460--47159746 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 16 Nov 2017, at 02:02, Norman Finn wrote: > I know little about the applications bitcoin. I can easily appreciate = its need for reliability, but I have a question about bandwidth. >=20 > Are bitcoin applications comfortable with the fixed bandwidth aspect = of DetNet? >=20 > That is, an app cannot exceed the BW of a flow, and unused BW is not = available to other DetNet flows. So, I take it that bitcoin is either = not bursty, or can afford wasted bandwidth. I guess it's not entirely wasted, but can be used for non-detnet flows. = There must be many applications where latency matters but traffic isn't = constant bit rate (e.g. where business is lost if web pages don't load = quickly) and for those there might be a benefit in making a reservation = that is only used sporadically. I'm not sure what the best way to = discourage that would be. John Grant Nine Tiles, Cambridge, England +44 1223 862599 and +44 1223 511455 http://www.ninetiles.com --Apple-Mail-460--47159746 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I know little about the = applications bitcoin.  I can easily appreciate its need for = reliability, but I have a question about bandwidth.

Are bitcoin = applications comfortable with the fixed bandwidth aspect of = DetNet?

That is, an app cannot exceed the BW of a flow, and = unused BW is not available to other DetNet flows.  So, I take it = that bitcoin is either not bursty, or can afford wasted = bandwidth.

I = guess it's not entirely wasted, but can be used for non-detnet flows. = There must be many applications where latency matters but traffic = isn't constant bit rate (e.g. where business is lost if web pages = don't load quickly) and for those there might be a benefit in making a = reservation that is only used sporadically. I'm not sure what the best = way to discourage that would be.

John Grant
Nine Tiles, = Cambridge, England
+44 1223 862599 and +44 1223 511455
http://www.ninetiles.com

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amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.127 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.127 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_OBFUSCATE_10_20=0.093, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RLPVXjlGGKrr for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 07:40:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94F07126D05 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 07:40:00 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-df9f99c000002554-a9-5a0db14e0f45 Received: from ESESSHC021.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.81]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 1C.BB.09556.E41BD0A5; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 16:39:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from [159.107.143.216] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.83) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.352.0; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 16:39:50 +0100 To: Pat Thaler , References: CC: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= , "Rodney Cummings" , Jiangyuanlong , zhayiyong From: =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 16:39:49 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------78F9401C2F9884EF06E113D6" X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrELMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7oK7fRt4og8N/dC1+f5rNYnH1Qzub xeL7N5gsbs7Yxmbxe8NSFgdWj1n3z7J5tBx5y+qxZMlPJo/rZ7YzBbBEcdmkpOZklqUW6dsl cGVMXilcsCivYv3ReSwNjIeiuxg5OSQETCTmXV/L2MXIxSEkcJhR4tWkdihnLaPE9MnvWUCq hAUiJd7cOcPUxcjBISJgLXFscxRIWEggQOLYvAtMIDazwF5GiR0tviA2m4C9xN1LG5hBbF4g +/G7RlYQm0VAVaK5r40ZZIyoQIzE+r4EiBJBiZMzn4Bt4hQIlGhp/c4KMTJM4vSm42wQq9Qk Pr19yD6BkX8WkpZZSMpmAU1lBtr2YGsZRFheYvvbOcwQtr7E9Tv3WWHizVtnMy9gZFvFKFqc WpyUm25kpJdalJlcXJyfp5eXWrKJERjyB7f8NtjB+PK54yFGAQ5GJR7e2yt5o4RYE8uKK3MP MUpwMCuJ8DZMBArxpiRWVqUW5ccXleakFh9ilOZgURLnPekJlBJITyxJzU5NLUgtgskycXBK NTDGa9t3fji0Nr6Yz/jgrPrtVqv7VNMvOYmkyRbUmyYsXy90UOntpkjepO/3md1O3Hkw4Y94 upJQjWjJ0qzTqpssgo5N0DA08PVauvzuY5/tIvNm8hy4cYVNd/UOX+ev2mEus8/z1UeVSl2b oMlwWzT7ceTshQEnV0mr9G1OfWURfqVw75+FnolKLMUZiYZazEXFiQCXphp9dQIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Regarding IPR on draft draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 15:40:05 -0000 --------------78F9401C2F9884EF06E113D6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft Regards, Janos On 11/16/2017 9:22 AM, Pat Thaler wrote: > Authors, Contributors, WG, > > As part of the preparation for WG Adoption Call: > > Are you aware of any IPR that applies to drafts identified above? > > Please state either: > > "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" > or > "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" > > If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules > (see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 for more details)? > > If yes to the above, please state either: > > "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" > or > "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" > > If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think > appropriate. > > If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the > above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are > aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next > stage until a response has been received from each author and listed > contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S > TO LINES. > > If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed > as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under > the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are > aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from > participating in any contribution or discussion related to your > undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above > and > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty > . > > Thank you, > DetNet WG Chairs > > PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your > response. > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet --------------78F9401C2F9884EF06E113D6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft
Regards,
Janos


On 11/16/2017 9:22 AM, Pat Thaler wrote:
Authors, Contributors, WG,

As part of the preparation for WG Adoption Call:

Are you aware of anyIPRthat applies to drafts identified above?

Please state either:

"No, I'm not aware of anyIPRthat applies to this draft"
or
"Yes, I'm aware ofIPRthat applies to this draft"

If so, has thisIPRbeen disclosed in compliance with IETFIPRrules
(see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 for more details)?

If yes to the above, please state either:

"Yes, theIPRhas been disclosed in compliance with IETFIPRrules"
or
"No, theIPRhas not been disclosed"

If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
appropriate.

If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the
above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are
aware of any relevantIPR. This document will not advance to the next
stage until a response has been received from each author and listed
contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S
TO LINES.

If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed
as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under
the IETFIPRrules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are
aware ofIPRof others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from
participating in any contribution or discussion related to your
undisclosedIPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above
and
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.

Thank you,
DetNet WG Chairs

PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your
response.


_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

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RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0JG9L68ITTpH for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 14:38:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com [67.231.152.235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11BC112717E for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 14:38:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0000695.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id vAGMc6IF015212 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 14:38:06 -0800 Received: from dlb-xchpw04.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.187.124]) by mx0b-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2e9kjrg04w-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 14:38:05 -0800 Received: from 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To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: DetNet and IPv4 Thread-Index: AdNexwTVJ28PIGoLT9KDP9YwpFiBHA== Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 22:38:04 +0000 Message-ID: <6df7ebba14494f8f9725c645077fa137@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.233.7.60] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6df7ebba14494f8f9725c645077fa137DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-11-16_06:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] DetNet and IPv4 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 22:38:10 -0000 --_000_6df7ebba14494f8f9725c645077fa137DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, I heard in conversations yesterday a few things which I am concerned about = (from a use case point of view) regarding DetNet and MPLS, IPv6 and IPv4. P= robably these things are well known to network professionals, but are news = to me, or maybe I misunderstood. So if anyone wants to correct or comment o= n any of these impressions please do. And of course there is a question to = be answered... 1) Although MPLS (and variants) are often available in today's routers= , apparently the skillset of configuring a network of MPLS routers is far l= ess common than for IPv4. Presumably IPv6 falls somewhere in between on thi= s scale. So the notion of our target audience (i.e. the implementers of our= use cases) setting up an MPLS network for a factory or a building or a min= e or a smart grid or an audio/video facility seems like it isn't going to b= e an easy sell. Presumably one reason for this is the complexity of configu= ring the network. Mitigating that somewhat is the notion that since we are = not going for interop with existing implementations, perhaps we could "cut = to the chase" and define some configuration process or interface that would= be simpler than the existing ones? 2) Perhaps IPv6 might be easier in that regard, however it was pointed= out that most industrial controllers (for example National Instruments, an= d probably existing equipment in most of our other use cases) don't support= IPv6, and if they do, apparently they don't interoperate well with existin= g IPv4 plant. And the motivation in most of our areas to adopt IPv6 hasn't = been there, presumably because they don't need extra address space and don'= t perceive any value in exchange for the effort and pain involved. 3) So the question was raised, why can't we have an IPv4 solution, i.e= . without involving MPLS or IPv6? It could still use a central controller, = what part of the puzzle is missing? Clearly we need some notion of Flow ID = and Sequence number, and it doesn't seem feasible to add such things to IPv= 4. But is there some way we can work around that? 4) As Norm pointed out in the session, we have been spending a lot of = time on PREF, but what if we just went for the basics of no congestion and = low latency - could we do it then? Is it worth considering that as an inter= im solution, figuring it will probably serve many use cases, and leave the = ultra high reliability stuff as follow-on? I mean obviously PREF is importa= nt, but if leaving it out of a first cut simplifies things enough and serve= d enough use cases in the nearer term, maybe worth some backtracking to get= to the full solution later? 5) Or how about IPv4 as an alternate solution, since we have discussed= separate implementations for MPLS and IPv6? Maybe IPv4, with "whatever per= formance/features we can get out of it" would serve some purpose, particula= rly in the near term? Anyway I'm just saying that I hadn't realized before that this could be as = much of an impediment to adoption as it is sounding to me now like it is, w= hich to me seems like a "use case issue" so I'm bringing it up. I mean it w= ould be less than ideal to develop a whole solution which is too unwieldy f= or our customers to adopt. Ethan. --_000_6df7ebba14494f8f9725c645077fa137DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All,
I heard in conversations yesterday a few= things which I am concerned about (from a use case point of view) regardin= g DetNet and MPLS, IPv6 and IPv4. Probably these things are well known to n= etwork professionals, but are news to me, or maybe I misunderstood. So if anyone wants to correct or comment o= n any of these impressions please do. And of course there is a question to = be answered…
  1. Although MPLS (and variants) are often av= ailable in today’s routers, apparently the skillset of configuring a = network of MPLS routers is far less common than for IPv4. Presumably IPv6 f= alls somewhere in between on this scale. So the notion of our target audience (i.e. the implementers of our use case= s) setting up an MPLS network for a factory or a building or a mine or a sm= art grid or an audio/video facility seems like it isn’t going to be a= n easy sell. Presumably one reason for this is the complexity of configuring the network. Mitigating that somewhat= is the notion that since we are not going for interop with existing implem= entations, perhaps we could “cut to the chase” and define some = configuration process or interface that would be simpler than the existing ones? 
  2. Perhaps IPv6 might be easier in that regard, however it was pointed ou= t that most industrial controllers (for example National Instruments, and p= robably existing equipment in most of our other use cases) don’t supp= ort IPv6, and if they do, apparently they don’t interoperate well with existing IPv= 4 plant. And the motivation in most of our areas to adopt IPv6 hasn’t= been there, presumably because they don’t need extra address space a= nd don’t perceive any value in exchange for the effort and pain involved.
  3. So the question w= as raised, why can’t we have an IPv4 solution, i.e. without involving= MPLS or IPv6? It could still use a central controller, what part of the pu= zzle is missing? Clearly we need some notion of Flow ID and Sequence number, and it doesn’t seem feasible to add such things to IPv4. But = is there some way we can work around that?
  4. As Norm pointed out in the session, we have been spending a lot of ti= me on PREF, but what if we just went for the basics of no congestion and lo= w latency – could we do it then? Is it worth considering that as an i= nterim solution, figuring it will probably serve many use cases, and leave the ultra high re= liability stuff as follow-on? I mean obviously PREF is important, but if le= aving it out of a first cut simplifies things enough and served enough use = cases in the nearer term, maybe worth some backtracking to get to the full solution later?
  5. Or how about IPv4 as an alternate solution, since = we have discussed separate implementations for MPLS and IPv6? Maybe IPv4, w= ith “whatever performance/features we can get out of it” would = serve some purpose, particularly in the near term? 
Anyway I’m just saying that I hadn= ’t realized before that this could be as much of an impediment to ado= ption as it is sounding to me now like it is, which to me seems like a R= 20;use case issue” so I’m bringing it up. I mean it would be less than ideal to develop a whole solution which is too unwieldy = for our customers to adopt.
Ethan.
 
 
 --_000_6df7ebba14494f8f9725c645077fa137DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_-- From nobody Thu Nov 16 14:53:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3743126C0F for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 14:53:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.321 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.321 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=jisc.ac.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oPBdUlxIc4hg for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 14:53:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from eu-smtp-delivery-189.mimecast.com (eu-smtp-delivery-189.mimecast.com [207.82.80.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CEDE1250B8 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 14:53:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jisc.ac.uk; s=mimecast20170213; t=1510872787; h=from:subject:date:message-id:to:cc:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:references; bh=odSD62gJ3UvJEDMy9cVngHKJDCJiFSF2wiJw+UnANPg=; b=JEpnxK7eQOvFypjuisnnANcWQ3xJTb/BlTTbFeQEZyXlYEMzONQ06ujzG3BgKahzOv0egQeGGKge33HD5GU46Egnx89V+qkyKZqcXOTr4tnqZsjdoxrNDNI3alV6dKZ6y+WoXK/feA6QokmNy4Ub1izA3CPqHozxNwqeQSGskHQ= Received: from EUR02-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am5eur02lp0151.outbound.protection.outlook.com [213.199.180.151]) (Using TLS) by eu-smtp-1.mimecast.com with ESMTP id uk-mta-134-3EJqoxMXPHCBo_Gvol2NXg-1; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 22:53:02 +0000 Received: from AM3PR07MB1140.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.163.188.14) by AM3PR07MB1140.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.163.188.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P256) id 15.20.260.2; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 22:53:01 +0000 Received: from AM3PR07MB1140.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d9b7:5aa5:5084:74c2]) by AM3PR07MB1140.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d9b7:5aa5:5084:74c2%13]) with mapi id 15.20.0260.001; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 22:53:01 +0000 From: Tim Chown To: "Grossman, Ethan A." CC: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] DetNet and IPv4 Thread-Index: AdNexwTVJ28PIGoLT9KDP9YwpFiBHAAZqHwA Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 22:53:01 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6df7ebba14494f8f9725c645077fa137@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> In-Reply-To: <6df7ebba14494f8f9725c645077fa137@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.4.7) x-originating-ip: [2001:a88:d510:1101:291b:568f:8b2c:9a0] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM3PR07MB1140; 20:LzzrjX7eNTTowORYztPvR5rg5xij10CLQhritHHrHpJViP5e1RPF8vWCFaDvBO6k0/RDrae77Z0ngL/g43YVYfVAIAgsVyBh53fyBujYtTcO7TH7XSv7fsAQq7w2B9Nq31awJyQGkZzL9KdIzoEKiZE8kHo0vSz51LRSnb/z03I= x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SSOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: ec67569e-08bc-4ee9-dba7-08d52d44ca1d x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ec67569e-08bc-4ee9-dba7-08d52d44ca1d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Nov 2017 22:53:01.3836 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 48f9394d-8a14-4d27-82a6-f35f12361205 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM3PR07MB1140 X-MC-Unique: 3EJqoxMXPHCBo_Gvol2NXg-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet and IPv4 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 22:53:12 -0000 SGksDQoNCj4gT24gMTYgTm92IDIwMTcsIGF0IDIyOjM4LCBHcm9zc21hbiwgRXRoYW4gQS4gPGVh Z3Jvc0Bkb2xieS5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiANCj4gSGkgQWxsLA0KPiBJIGhlYXJkIGluIGNvbnZl 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Cc: "detnet@ietf.org" References: <6df7ebba14494f8f9725c645077fa137@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <5ce498a0-1b4a-a309-cf53-89a80a26f7d6@labn.net> Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 07:05:53 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1eFTEL-002S1n-Lb X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.86.101]:57432 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 3 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet and IPv4 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 23:26:39 -0000 I personally have been assuming that IPv4 would be supported by (a) TSN in non-MPLS networks, this includes over DetNet routers interconnected by TSN (or similar L2), and (b) over DetNet/MPLS -- probably using some form of island interconnect WRT PREF: (a) implies PREF on a per TSN/L2 basis and (b) implies PREF only within the DetNet/MPLS domain. Lou On 11/17/2017 6:53 AM, Tim Chown wrote: > Hi, > >> On 16 Nov 2017, at 22:38, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> I heard in conversations yesterday a few things which I am concerned about (from a use case point of view) regarding DetNet and MPLS, IPv6 and IPv4. Probably these things are well known to network professionals, but are news to me, or maybe I misunderstood. So if anyone wants to correct or comment on any of these impressions please do. And of course there is a question to be answered… >> • Although MPLS (and variants) are often available in today’s routers, apparently the skillset of configuring a network of MPLS routers is far less common than for IPv4. Presumably IPv6 falls somewhere in between on this scale. So the notion of our target audience (i.e. the implementers of our use cases) setting up an MPLS network for a factory or a building or a mine or a smart grid or an audio/video facility seems like it isn’t going to be an easy sell. Presumably one reason for this is the complexity of configuring the network. Mitigating that somewhat is the notion that since we are not going for interop with existing implementations, perhaps we could “cut to the chase” and define some configuration process or interface that would be simpler than the existing ones? >> • Perhaps IPv6 might be easier in that regard, however it was pointed out that most industrial controllers (for example National Instruments, and probably existing equipment in most of our other use cases) don’t support IPv6, and if they do, apparently they don’t interoperate well with existing IPv4 plant. And the motivation in most of our areas to adopt IPv6 hasn’t been there, presumably because they don’t need extra address space and don’t perceive any value in exchange for the effort and pain involved. >> • So the question was raised, why can’t we have an IPv4 solution, i.e. without involving MPLS or IPv6? It could still use a central controller, what part of the puzzle is missing? Clearly we need some notion of Flow ID and Sequence number, and it doesn’t seem feasible to add such things to IPv4. But is there some way we can work around that? >> • As Norm pointed out in the session, we have been spending a lot of time on PREF, but what if we just went for the basics of no congestion and low latency – could we do it then? Is it worth considering that as an interim solution, figuring it will probably serve many use cases, and leave the ultra high reliability stuff as follow-on? I mean obviously PREF is important, but if leaving it out of a first cut simplifies things enough and served enough use cases in the nearer term, maybe worth some backtracking to get to the full solution later? >> • Or how about IPv4 as an alternate solution, since we have discussed separate implementations for MPLS and IPv6? Maybe IPv4, with “whatever performance/features we can get out of it” would serve some purpose, particularly in the near term? >> Anyway I’m just saying that I hadn’t realized before that this could be as much of an impediment to adoption as it is sounding to me now like it is, which to me seems like a “use case issue” so I’m bringing it up. I mean it would be less than ideal to develop a whole solution which is too unwieldy for our customers to adopt. >> Ethan. > > If you’re suggesting an IPv4-only solution, you’re running up against https://www.iab.org/2016/11/07/iab-statement-on-ipv6/. > > And there’s interesting new IPv6-only video distribution models to which DetNet could be applied, like http://6cn.io/. > > Tim > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > From nobody Thu Nov 16 15:33:49 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B1D41270A0 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 15:33:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rtwe_E6zSFoE for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 15:33:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from outbound-ss-1812.hostmonster.com (gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.25.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FB58124B09 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 15:33:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from CMOut01 (cmgw2 [10.0.90.82]) by gproxy1.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 152AB175B78 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 16:33:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by CMOut01 with id anZe1w0052SSUrH01nZhVH; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 16:33:42 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=K4VSJ2eI c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10 a=sC3jslCIGhcA:10 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=P2sB3T_HAAAA:20 a=bES2lQTYoQqcbcTwNHMA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=8Q7M2idXEiQA:10 a=rKrVYePj7rwA:10 a=voZrjb6_8qcA:10 a=gUXmQ8eWAGYA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:To:Subject:From:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID:Content-Description: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID: In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=GK6WV0ZjQ+Zfukw0/5UNGX30qizEP6BbQQAAkkVTv/I=; b=MTI109QqTQTr7o7OO5+EqftHvp aMl9/+qIuMK4BzlzTxCKdv5iW8dsE0nkUjwGc6SV9IA3IMJH+MT3muXT8KehOg3guWYt3wm9Gt5zS jgiF6vRbJR7egYo6HIdcyLTGv; Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:59150 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1eFTf7-002Xvc-RB for detnet@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 16:33:38 -0700 From: Lou Berger To: "detnet@ietf.org" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 07:33:34 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1eFTf7-002Xvc-RB X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.86.101]:59150 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 7 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Raw notes from session X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 23:33:47 -0000 Hi, As usual, notes from our session are available in etherpad: http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-100-detnet Please review and make additions/corrections based on what took place in the session (comments should be sent to the list.) You may make changes based on the recordings, even if not present at the meeting! To aid in the review, please see: Recording: https://www.ietf.org/audio/ietf100/ietf100-sophia-20171116-0930.mp3 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhFqlWurUuQ&list=PLC86T-6ZTP5g_hEODKiZDeZTpr2Vxd2B3&index=80 Thank you! Lou (Pat and Jouni) From nobody Thu Nov 16 17:12:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F45B1273E2 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 17:12:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.217 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.217 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X3isaoWMzn_l for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 17:12:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2372126D0C for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 17:12:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML710-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 8C44C9BE489D4; Fri, 17 Nov 2017 01:12:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMM422-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.39) by LHREML710-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.361.1; Fri, 17 Nov 2017 01:12:48 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM508-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.115]) by dggemm422-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.198.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Fri, 17 Nov 2017 09:12:38 +0800 From: zhayiyong To: Jiangyuanlong , Pat Thaler , =?utf-8?B?SsOhbm9zIEZhcmthcw==?= , =?utf-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBWYXJnYSBB?= , Rodney Cummings CC: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Regarding IPR on draft draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model Thread-Index: AQHTXrlcapqjUylCVUuWRXPh9MD5ZKMXxMrQ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 01:12:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68BBB634D70@dggeml507-mbs.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: 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Received: from rexd.epfl.ch (HELO rexd.intranet.epfl.ch) (128.178.50.37) (TLS, ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (P-256 curve) cipher) by mail.epfl.ch (AngelmatoPhylax SMTP proxy) with ESMTPS; Fri, 17 Nov 2017 03:55:45 +0100 X-EPFL-Auth: BcYNxYSFsg7fsnlflJaCewBnA4AdSGOtbAVq6gIFZzC6GIU3LQk= Received: from REXB.intranet.epfl.ch (128.178.50.16) by REXD.intranet.epfl.ch (128.178.50.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Fri, 17 Nov 2017 03:55:45 +0100 Received: from REXB.intranet.epfl.ch ([fe80::103a:f6e6:68a1:47b3]) by rexb.intranet.epfl.ch ([fe80::103a:f6e6:68a1:47b3%20]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Fri, 17 Nov 2017 03:55:45 +0100 From: Le boudec Jean-Yves To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] DetNet and IPv4 Thread-Index: AdNexwTVJ28PIGoLT9KDP9YwpFiBHAAZqHwA///y1YCAAFD+Vg== Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 02:55:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6df7ebba14494f8f9725c645077fa137@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> , <5ce498a0-1b4a-a309-cf53-89a80a26f7d6@labn.net> In-Reply-To: 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ZXQNCg== From nobody Thu Nov 16 19:06:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E51D1276AF for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 19:06:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5aNl4uChiV6X for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 19:06:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from dggwg11-dlp.huawei.com (lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com [194.213.3.62]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD6D4128ACA for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 19:06:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfwpml705-chm.exmail.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.65]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 13E32D9A6A41E; Fri, 17 Nov 2017 03:05:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.1.143]) by dfwpml705-chm.exmail.huawei.com ([10.124.31.209]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 19:05:55 -0800 From: Norman Finn To: "huang.guangping@zte.com.cn" CC: "ethan.grossman@dolby.com" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Question about using blockchain as DetNe use case Thread-Index: AdNefTmgyaH4TMSNTWe00bGvTTMiegASjfkAACGLhdE= Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 03:05:54 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA750@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> References: 3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA56F@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com, <201711161041226835920@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: <201711161041226835920@zte.com.cn> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: 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Guangping,

Thanks for the reply.  Let me explain a little better what and why I'm= asking:

It's not possible to guarantee both bounded latency and reliable delivery t= o an arbitrarily high load with a finite number of buffers in the network.&= nbsp; The way that DetNet can assure reliable delivery to bitcoin is:

  1. Every point-to-point bitcoin connection has a certain bandwidth r= eserved for its use.
  2. A bitcoin host must not transmit data faster than its reserved ba= ndwidth; any excess packets are discarded.
  3. Unused bandwidth on a bitcoin reservation is NOT available to any= other reserved flow, bitcoin or not; it is available only to non-DetNet tr= affic.
  4. Reservations can never oversubscribe a link.

What this means is that, if a burst of bitcoin activity would exceed the ba= ndwidth of a reservation, the bitcoin application has to buffer its transmi= ssions and meter them out at no more than the contracted rate.  This a= dds to the latency, of course.  How much it adds would depend on the size of the burst.  It would take some an= alysis to look at the transmission rate as a function of time and the worst= -case acceptable latency, in order to come up with the optimal value for a = bandwidth contract.  The bigger the bandwidth, the more expensive the reservation, because of points 3 and 4.

In reading the use cases draft, I understood that reliable delivery is attr= active to bitcoin, but the description of the application did not make me c= onfident that the fixed bandwidth aspect would be acceptable.  I'm alw= ays glad to find a new application of DetNet, but if the activity of bitcoin is bursty, it might not be a good f= it.  I certainly hope it is.

How bursty is bitcoin?

-- Norm

From: huang.guangping@zte.com.cn [huang.g= uangping@zte.com.cn]
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 6:41 PM
To: Norman Finn
Cc: ethan.grossman@dolby.com; detnet@ietf.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Detnet] Question about using blockchain as D= etNe use case

hi Norm, 

bitcoin is actually a public= blockchain which is running in the open internet. here we're address speci= fically the private blockchain.

blockchain runs in a mode of= p2mp among its participating nodes while it's actually running p2p in the = level of network (L3/L4)  based upon best-effort under current scenari= o. its consensus mechanism demands strictly every transmission of the data be delivered successfully on each node, oth= erwise the failed (packet-loss, expiry delivery etc)transmission has to tra= nported again. 

the unreliability and the la= tency incurred is especially intolerable in the private blockchain applicat= ions.

so far as the fixed bw is co= ncerned, blockchain actullay would not consume too much for its quite limit= ed metadata transmission.




=BB=C6=B9=E2= =C6=BD huangguangping


=D4=A4=D1=D0= =B1=EA=D7=BC=B2=BF/=D3=D0=CF=DF=D1=D0=BE=BF=D4=BA/=D3=D0=CF=DF=B2=FA=C6=B7= =BE=AD=D3=AA=B2=BF Standard Preresearch Dept./Wireline Product Operation Division<= /span>



=C4=CF=BE=A9=CA=D0=D3= =EA=BB=A8=C7=F8=C8=ED=BC=FE=B4=F3=B5=C050=BA=C5=D6=D0=D0=CB=CD=A8=D1=B61=BA= =C5=C2=A5 
R&D Building, ZTE Corporation Software Road No.50,
Yuhua District, Nanjing, P.= .R.China, 210012 
M: +86 13770311052
E: huang.guangping@zte.com.cn
www.zte.com.cn
=D4=AD=CA=BC=D3=CA=BC=FE
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA <norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com>;
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA=BB=C6=B9=E2=C6=BD10039714; <ethan.grossman@dolby.com>;<= /span>
=B3=AD=CB=CD=C8=CB=A3=BA <detnet@ietf.org>;
=C8=D5 =C6=DA =A3=BA2017=C4=EA11=D4= =C216=C8=D5 10:03
=D6=F7 =CC=E2 =A3=BA[Detnet] Question about using blockchain as DetNe use case


I know little about the applications bitcoin.  I can easily appre= ciate its need for reliability, but I have a question about bandwidth.

Are bitcoin applications comfortable with the fixed bandwidth aspect of Det= Net?

That is, an app cannot exceed the BW of a flow, and unused BW is not availa= ble to other DetNet flows.  So, I take it that bitcoin is either not b= ursty, or can afford wasted bandwidth.

-- Norm


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id 14.03.0361.001; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 19:56:08 -0800 From: Norman Finn To: Le boudec Jean-Yves , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] DetNet and IPv4 Thread-Index: AdNexwTVJ28PIGoLT9KDP9YwpFiBHAAZqHwAABE2uIAACAcrgP//fY3T Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 03:56:06 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA780@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> References: <6df7ebba14494f8f9725c645077fa137@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> , <5ce498a0-1b4a-a309-cf53-89a80a26f7d6@labn.net>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.4.33] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020206.5A0E5DDD.0070, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.1.143, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: b74ea4f26c727641651346923093831c Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet and IPv4 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 03:56:20 -0000 A good topic to discuss.=0A= =0A= Ignoring PREF for a moment:=0A= =0A= If we have YANG models such that the a network controller can configure the= IntServ and/or TSN queues, then we have a plan that will provide bounded l= atency for either IPv4 or IPv6, at least until a topology change requires t= hat the reservations be re-built. Well, except for we need some way to ask= the controller for a reservation, but that can certainly be in a YANG mode= l, too.=0A= =0A= If we constrain the network to a series of rings, and employ any of the man= y ring control protocols, then that same controller can pre-make the reserv= ations in all directions around the rings, so that ring failures/recoveries= will have ready-made reservations to accommodate the quick fail-over. A w= orkable plan for many.=0A= =0A= Ah, but PREF:=0A= =0A= To Get PREF, you probably need a new capability from your bridge/router/chi= p vendor to do elimination. You don't need this capability everywhere. Bu= t, we're probably already talking about a hardware upgrade. (Which you may= have required for the TSN and/or IntServ queues, anyway.)=0A= =0A= Given that upgrade, let's talk about packet formats. I could be surprised,= either way, on the issue of whether it would be easy or hard to get an MPL= S data plane at the same time as the packet elimination upgrade. We'll hav= e to hear from bridge/router/chip vendors to learn that.=0A= =0A= As Lou says, MPLS supports IPv4 just fine. No problems, there.=0A= =0A= Seems that the only thing we are arguably missing is a native IPv4 format. = There are some obvious "nice" candidates, and some obvious "layer-crossing= abomination" candidates. I suppose IETF, IEEE, ODVA, Industrie 4.0, or so= me vendor could pick one. But, it's possible that any IPv4 native encaps w= ould run into as many HW upgrade problems as the MPLS data plane solution. = I don't know.=0A= =0A= That leaves the MPLS control plane / network administrator training issue. = If you're putting DetNet on some service provider network, there may be no= issue here, at all! Otherwise, I freely admit that I'm partial to central= control solutions for DetNet/TSN. All the YANG stuff is there to pin down= a path through a bridge. Rather than bring up a full MPLS control plane, = and figure out how to teach the relevant boxes how to make the necessary re= quests, I'd want YANG models for constructing pinned paths, and use MPLS on= ly for pinned DetNet paths, not for general use in my network. Pinned MPLS= paths would be understood by the administrators exactly like pinned bridge= d paths, just a slightly different format.=0A= =0A= Interesting fact: As far as configuring the packet replicators/eliminators= for either TSN or DetNet, the information model in IEEE Std 802.1CB-2017 i= s just as applicable to routers, label switching routers, or firewalls as i= t is to bridges. All that's missing is the YANG model to conform to the in= formation model, and plug-ins for the encapsulation desired. (Both of thos= e projects are getting underway, already.)=0A= =0A= -- Norm=0A= =0A= ________________________________________=0A= From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Le boudec Jean-Yves [je= an-yves.leboudec@epfl.ch]=0A= Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:55 PM=0A= To: detnet@ietf.org=0A= Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet and IPv4=0A= =0A= A small factual correction: National Instrument supports IPv6. But it is t= rue that all smart grid software I know of uses IPv4. Moving to IPv6 involv= es re-coding, with some potential difficulties on the network side (in IP m= ulticast for example) and with no benefit since such networks use private I= Pv4 addresses.=0A= =0A= JY=0A= =0A= > Le 17 nov. 2017 =E0 07:26, Lou Berger a =E9crit :=0A= >=0A= > I personally have been assuming that IPv4 would be supported by=0A= > (a) TSN in non-MPLS networks, this includes over DetNet routers interconn= ected by TSN (or similar L2), and=0A= > (b) over DetNet/MPLS -- probably using some form of island interconnect= =0A= >=0A= > WRT PREF: (a) implies PREF on a per TSN/L2 basis and (b) implies PREF onl= y within the DetNet/MPLS domain.=0A= >=0A= > Lou=0A= >=0A= >> On 11/17/2017 6:53 AM, Tim Chown wrote:=0A= >> Hi,=0A= >>> On 16 Nov 2017, at 22:38, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:= =0A= >>>=0A= >>> Hi All,=0A= >>> I heard in conversations yesterday a few things which I am concerned ab= out (from a use case point of view) regarding DetNet and MPLS, IPv6 and IPv= 4. Probably these things are well known to network professionals, but are n= ews to me, or maybe I misunderstood. So if anyone wants to correct or comme= nt on any of these impressions please do. And of course there is a question= to be answered=85=0A= >>> =95 Although MPLS (and variants) are often available in today=92s ro= uters, apparently the skillset of configuring a network of MPLS routers is = far less common than for IPv4. Presumably IPv6 falls somewhere in between o= n this scale. So the notion of our target audience (i.e. the implementers o= f our use cases) setting up an MPLS network for a factory or a building or = a mine or a smart grid or an audio/video facility seems like it isn=92t goi= ng to be an easy sell. Presumably one reason for this is the complexity of = configuring the network. Mitigating that somewhat is the notion that since = we are not going for interop with existing implementations, perhaps we coul= d =93cut to the chase=94 and define some configuration process or interface= that would be simpler than the existing ones?=0A= >>> =95 Perhaps IPv6 might be easier in that regard, however it was poin= ted out that most industrial controllers (for example National Instruments,= and probably existing equipment in most of our other use cases) don=92t su= pport IPv6, and if they do, apparently they don=92t interoperate well with = existing IPv4 plant. And the motivation in most of our areas to adopt IPv6 = hasn=92t been there, presumably because they don=92t need extra address spa= ce and don=92t perceive any value in exchange for the effort and pain invol= ved.=0A= >>> =95 So the question was raised, why can=92t we have an IPv4 solution= , i.e. without involving MPLS or IPv6? It could still use a central control= ler, what part of the puzzle is missing? Clearly we need some notion of Flo= w ID and Sequence number, and it doesn=92t seem feasible to add such things= to IPv4. But is there some way we can work around that?=0A= >>> =95 As Norm pointed out in the session, we have been spending a lot = of time on PREF, but what if we just went for the basics of no congestion a= nd low latency =96 could we do it then? Is it worth considering that as an = interim solution, figuring it will probably serve many use cases, and leave= the ultra high reliability stuff as follow-on? I mean obviously PREF is im= portant, but if leaving it out of a first cut simplifies things enough and = served enough use cases in the nearer term, maybe worth some backtracking t= o get to the full solution later?=0A= >>> =95 Or how about IPv4 as an alternate solution, since we have discus= sed separate implementations for MPLS and IPv6? Maybe IPv4, with =93whateve= r performance/features we can get out of it=94 would serve some purpose, pa= rticularly in the near term?=0A= >>> Anyway I=92m just saying that I hadn=92t realized before that this coul= d be as much of an impediment to adoption as it is sounding to me now like = it is, which to me seems like a =93use case issue=94 so I=92m bringing it u= p. I mean it would be less than ideal to develop a whole solution which is = too unwieldy for our customers to adopt.=0A= >>> Ethan.=0A= >> If you=92re suggesting an IPv4-only solution, you=92re running up agains= t https://www.iab.org/2016/11/07/iab-statement-on-ipv6/.=0A= >> And there=92s interesting new IPv6-only video distribution models to whi= ch DetNet could be applied, like http://6cn.io/.=0A= >> Tim=0A= >> _______________________________________________=0A= >> detnet mailing list=0A= >> detnet@ietf.org=0A= >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=0A= >=0A= > _______________________________________________=0A= > detnet mailing list=0A= > detnet@ietf.org=0A= > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=0A= _______________________________________________=0A= detnet mailing list=0A= detnet@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=0A= From nobody Thu Nov 16 19:57:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com 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(unknown [172.18.7.65]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id EECD78B704F78; Fri, 17 Nov 2017 03:56:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.1.143]) by dfwpml705-chm.exmail.huawei.com ([10.124.31.209]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 19:56:51 -0800 From: Norman Finn To: "huang.guangping@zte.com.cn" CC: "detnet@ietf.org" , "ethan.grossman@dolby.com" Thread-Topic: Re: [Detnet] Question about using blockchain as DetNe use case Thread-Index: AdNefTmgyaH4TMSNTWe00bGvTTMiegASjfkAACGLhdEAEldgAP//givN Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 03:56:50 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA791@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> References: 3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA56F@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com, 201711161041226835920@zte.com.cn, 3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA750@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com, <201711171127025317974@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: <201711171127025317974@zte.com.cn> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: 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Super!  Thanks for the clarification.

-- Norm

From: huang.guangping@zte.com.cn [huang.g= uangping@zte.com.cn]
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 7:27 PM
To: Norman Finn
Cc: detnet@ietf.org; ethan.grossman@dolby.com
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: Re: [Detnet] Question about using blockchain = as DetNe use case

Norm,

Thanks for your comment.

I understand the fact the bl= ockchain traffic is bursty would inevitably bring some waste to the reserve= d bandwith, which would happen in all of the scenarios where the data rate = is variate.

but fortunately it's inheren= t in blockchain the metadata size (both the "transaction" and &qu= ot;blocks") is fixed or could at least be pre-calculated, so in a runn= ing blriockchain the bw reserved could be set strictly as the specified datarate rather than a maximum covering a variaty of data= rates. 

thanks again.






=BB=C6=B9=E2= =C6=BD huangguangping


=D4=A4=D1=D0= =B1=EA=D7=BC=B2=BF/=D3=D0=CF=DF=D1=D0=BE=BF=D4=BA/=D3=D0=CF=DF=B2=FA=C6=B7= =BE=AD=D3=AA=B2=BF Standard Preresearch Dept./Wireline Product Operation Division<= /span>



=C4=CF=BE=A9=CA=D0=D3= =EA=BB=A8=C7=F8=C8=ED=BC=FE=B4=F3=B5=C050=BA=C5=D6=D0=D0=CB=CD=A8=D1=B61=BA= =C5=C2=A5 
R&D Building, ZTE Corporation Software Road No.50,
Yuhua District, Nanjing, P.= .R.China, 210012 
M: +86 13770311052
E: huang.guangping@zte.com.cn
www.zte.com.cn
=D4=AD=CA=BC=D3=CA=BC=FE
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA <norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com>;
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA=BB=C6=B9=E2=C6=BD10039714;
=B3=AD=CB=CD=C8=CB=A3=BA <detnet@ietf.org>; <ethan.grossman@dolby.com>;
=C8=D5 =C6=DA =A3=BA2017=C4=EA11=D4= =C217=C8=D5 11:08
=D6=F7 =CC=E2 =A3=BARe: [Detnet] Question about using blockchain as DetNe use case


Guangping,

Thanks for the reply.  Let me explain a little better what and why I'm= asking:

It's not possible to guarantee both bounded latency and reliable delivery t= o an arbitrarily high load with a finite number of buffers in the network.&= nbsp; The way that DetNet can assure reliable delivery to bitcoin is:

  1. Every point-to-point bitcoin connection has a certain bandwidth r= eserved for its use.
  2. A bitcoin host must not transmit data faster than its reserved ba= ndwidth; any excess packets are discarded.
  3. Unused bandwidth on a bitcoin reservation is NOT available to any= other reserved flow, bitcoin or not; it is available only to non-DetNet tr= affic.
  4. Reservations can never oversubscribe a link.

What this means is that, if a burst of bitcoin activity would exceed the ba= ndwidth of a reservation, the bitcoin application has to buffer its transmi= ssions and meter them out at no more than the contracted rate.  This a= dds to the latency, of course.  How much  it adds would depend on the size of the burst.  It would take s= ome analysis to look at the transmission rate as a function of time and the= worst-case acceptable latency, in order to come up with the optimal value = for a bandwidth contract.  The bigger the bandwidth,  the more expensive the reservation, because of points 3 a= nd 4.

In reading the use cases draft, I understood that reliable delivery is attr= active to bitcoin, but the description of the application did not make me c= onfident that the fixed bandwidth aspect would be acceptable.  I'm alw= ays glad to find a new application of  DetNet, but if the activity of bitcoin is bursty, it might not be a = good fit.  I certainly hope it is.

How bursty is bitcoin?

-- Norm

From: huang.guangping@zte.com.cn [= huang.guangping@zte.com.cn]
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 6:41 PM
To: Norman Finn
Cc: ethan.grossman@dolby.com; detnet@ietf.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Detnet] Question about using block= chain as DetNe use case

hi Norm, 

bitcoin is actually a public= blockchain which is running in the open internet. here we're address speci= fically the private blockchain.

blockchain runs in a mode of= p2mp among its participating nodes while it's actually running p2p in the = level of network (L3/L4)  based upon best-effort under current scenari= o. its consensus mechanism demands strictly  every transmission of the data be delivered successfully on each nod= e, otherwise the failed (packet-loss, expiry delivery etc)transmission has = to tranported again. 

the unreliability and the la= tency incurred is especially intolerable in the private blockchain applicat= ions.

so far as the fixed bw is co= ncerned, blockchain actullay would not consume too much for its quite limit= ed metadata transmission.




=BB=C6=B9=E2= =C6=BD huangguangping


=D4=A4=D1=D0= =B1=EA=D7=BC=B2=BF/=D3=D0=CF=DF=D1=D0=BE=BF=D4=BA/=D3=D0=CF=DF=B2=FA=C6=B7= =BE=AD=D3=AA=B2=BF Standard Preresearch Dept./Wireline Product Operation Division<= /span>



=C4=CF=BE=A9=CA=D0=D3= =EA=BB=A8=C7=F8=C8=ED=BC=FE=B4=F3=B5=C050=BA=C5=D6=D0=D0=CB=CD=A8=D1=B61=BA= =C5=C2=A5 
R&D Building, ZTE Corporation Software Road No.50,
Yuhua District, Nanjing, P.= ..R.China, 210012 
M: +86 13770311052
E: huang.guangping@zte.com.cn
www.zte.com.cn


=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA <norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com>;
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA=BB=C6=B9=E2=C6=BD10039714; <ethan.grossman@dolby.com>;<= /span>
=B3=AD=CB=CD=C8=CB=A3=BA <detnet@ietf.org>;
=C8=D5 =C6=DA =A3=BA2017=C4=EA11=D4= =C216=C8=D5 10:03
=D6=F7 =CC=E2 =A3=BA[Detnet] Question about using blockchain as DetNe use case


I know little about the applications bitcoin.  I can easily appre= ciate its need for reliability, but I have a question about bandwidth.

Are bitcoin applications comfortable with the fixed bandwidth aspect of Det= Net?

That is, an app cannot exceed the BW of a flow, and unused BW is not availa= ble to other DetNet flows.  So, I take it that bitcoin is either not b= ursty, or can afford wasted bandwidth.

-- Norm


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--_005_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA791DFWPML704CHMexmai_-- From nobody Thu Nov 16 19:58:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC42E124D6C for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 19:57:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jemYRjmVQv3J for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 19:57:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0264128768 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2017 19:57:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 1FEC8C1DBCBB5 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2017 03:57:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMA405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.46) by lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.47) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.361.1; Fri, 17 Nov 2017 03:57:51 +0000 Received: from DGGEMA501-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.162]) by DGGEMA405-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.46]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Fri, 17 Nov 2017 11:57:47 +0800 From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-geng-detnet-conf-yang-00.txt Thread-Index: AdNfVP2CsXntdJQETKKImneTmGY8wQ== Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 03:57:47 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.52.37.95] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] New Version Notification for draft-geng-detnet-conf-yang-00.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 03:57:57 -0000 Hi all, We have just updated a new draft: DetNet Configuration YANG Model. Reviews will be appreciated. Best Regards Xuesong __________________________________________________________________________ A new version of I-D, draft-geng-detnet-conf-yang-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Xuesong Geng and posted to the IETF repo= sitory. Name: draft-geng-detnet-conf-yang Revision: 00 Title: DetNet Configuration YANG Model Document date: 2017-10-29 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 23 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-geng-detnet-conf= -yang-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geng-detnet-conf-yan= g/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-geng-detnet-conf-yang-00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-geng-detnet-con= f-yang-00 Abstract: This document describes configuration model for Deterministic Networking(DetNet). It defines DetNet configuration attribute and the corresponding YANG model, which is used for DetNet capabilities configuration/discovery, DetNet flow configuration and DetNet flow status collection in the network. = =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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([2001:67c:1232:144:acb6:b599:d1bf:fff3]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h56sm2234114eda.97.2017.11.17.00.49.05 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Nov 2017 00:49:06 -0800 (PST) To: Norman Finn , Le boudec Jean-Yves , "detnet@ietf.org" References: <6df7ebba14494f8f9725c645077fa137@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> <5ce498a0-1b4a-a309-cf53-89a80a26f7d6@labn.net> <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA780@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 08:49:03 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA780@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet and IPv4 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 08:49:12 -0000 The "official" way of running PW over IP is via L2TP(v3). The other way is to do a variant of what the PW arch had, and DETNET initially considered, and that is to run PW over MPLS over UDP over IPv4/6. You only need one label and that can be considered an opaque data type {32 bits of which 20 are the session ident and the rest are just fixed}. This way you can use almost the same data structures for MPLS and IP. In a host it works over a socket, it passes through a firewall, and is IP version neutral. - Stewart On 17/11/2017 03:56, Norman Finn wrote: > A good topic to discuss. > > Ignoring PREF for a moment: > > If we have YANG models such that the a network controller can configure the IntServ and/or TSN queues, then we have a plan that will provide bounded latency for either IPv4 or IPv6, at least until a topology change requires that the reservations be re-built. Well, except for we need some way to ask the controller for a reservation, but that can certainly be in a YANG model, too. > > If we constrain the network to a series of rings, and employ any of the many ring control protocols, then that same controller can pre-make the reservations in all directions around the rings, so that ring failures/recoveries will have ready-made reservations to accommodate the quick fail-over. A workable plan for many. > > Ah, but PREF: > > To Get PREF, you probably need a new capability from your bridge/router/chip vendor to do elimination. You don't need this capability everywhere. But, we're probably already talking about a hardware upgrade. (Which you may have required for the TSN and/or IntServ queues, anyway.) > > Given that upgrade, let's talk about packet formats. I could be surprised, either way, on the issue of whether it would be easy or hard to get an MPLS data plane at the same time as the packet elimination upgrade. We'll have to hear from bridge/router/chip vendors to learn that. > > As Lou says, MPLS supports IPv4 just fine. No problems, there. > > Seems that the only thing we are arguably missing is a native IPv4 format. There are some obvious "nice" candidates, and some obvious "layer-crossing abomination" candidates. I suppose IETF, IEEE, ODVA, Industrie 4.0, or some vendor could pick one. But, it's possible that any IPv4 native encaps would run into as many HW upgrade problems as the MPLS data plane solution. I don't know. > > That leaves the MPLS control plane / network administrator training issue. If you're putting DetNet on some service provider network, there may be no issue here, at all! Otherwise, I freely admit that I'm partial to central control solutions for DetNet/TSN. All the YANG stuff is there to pin down a path through a bridge. Rather than bring up a full MPLS control plane, and figure out how to teach the relevant boxes how to make the necessary requests, I'd want YANG models for constructing pinned paths, and use MPLS only for pinned DetNet paths, not for general use in my network. Pinned MPLS paths would be understood by the administrators exactly like pinned bridged paths, just a slightly different format. > > Interesting fact: As far as configuring the packet replicators/eliminators for either TSN or DetNet, the information model in IEEE Std 802.1CB-2017 is just as applicable to routers, label switching routers, or firewalls as it is to bridges. All that's missing is the YANG model to conform to the information model, and plug-ins for the encapsulation desired. (Both of those projects are getting underway, already.) > > -- Norm > > ________________________________________ > From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Le boudec Jean-Yves [jean-yves.leboudec@epfl.ch] > Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:55 PM > To: detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet and IPv4 > > A small factual correction: National Instrument supports IPv6. But it is true that all smart grid software I know of uses IPv4. Moving to IPv6 involves re-coding, with some potential difficulties on the network side (in IP multicast for example) and with no benefit since such networks use private IPv4 addresses. > > JY > >> Le 17 nov. 2017 07:26, Lou Berger a crit : >> >> I personally have been assuming that IPv4 would be supported by >> (a) TSN in non-MPLS networks, this includes over DetNet routers interconnected by TSN (or similar L2), and >> (b) over DetNet/MPLS -- probably using some form of island interconnect >> >> WRT PREF: (a) implies PREF on a per TSN/L2 basis and (b) implies PREF only within the DetNet/MPLS domain. >> >> Lou >> >>> On 11/17/2017 6:53 AM, Tim Chown wrote: >>> Hi, >>>> On 16 Nov 2017, at 22:38, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> I heard in conversations yesterday a few things which I am concerned about (from a use case point of view) regarding DetNet and MPLS, IPv6 and IPv4. Probably these things are well known to network professionals, but are news to me, or maybe I misunderstood. So if anyone wants to correct or comment on any of these impressions please do. And of course there is a question to be answered >>>> Although MPLS (and variants) are often available in todays routers, apparently the skillset of configuring a network of MPLS routers is far less common than for IPv4. Presumably IPv6 falls somewhere in between on this scale. So the notion of our target audience (i.e. the implementers of our use cases) setting up an MPLS network for a factory or a building or a mine or a smart grid or an audio/video facility seems like it isnt going to be an easy sell. Presumably one reason for this is the complexity of configuring the network. Mitigating that somewhat is the notion that since we are not going for interop with existing implementations, perhaps we could cut to the chase and define some configuration process or interface that would be simpler than the existing ones? >>>> Perhaps IPv6 might be easier in that regard, however it was pointed out that most industrial controllers (for example National Instruments, and probably existing equipment in most of our other use cases) dont support IPv6, and if they do, apparently they dont interoperate well with existing IPv4 plant. And the motivation in most of our areas to adopt IPv6 hasnt been there, presumably because they dont need extra address space and dont perceive any value in exchange for the effort and pain involved. >>>> So the question was raised, why cant we have an IPv4 solution, i.e. without involving MPLS or IPv6? It could still use a central controller, what part of the puzzle is missing? Clearly we need some notion of Flow ID and Sequence number, and it doesnt seem feasible to add such things to IPv4. But is there some way we can work around that? >>>> As Norm pointed out in the session, we have been spending a lot of time on PREF, but what if we just went for the basics of no congestion and low latency could we do it then? Is it worth considering that as an interim solution, figuring it will probably serve many use cases, and leave the ultra high reliability stuff as follow-on? I mean obviously PREF is important, but if leaving it out of a first cut simplifies things enough and served enough use cases in the nearer term, maybe worth some backtracking to get to the full solution later? >>>> Or how about IPv4 as an alternate solution, since we have discussed separate implementations for MPLS and IPv6? Maybe IPv4, with whatever performance/features we can get out of it would serve some purpose, particularly in the near term? >>>> Anyway Im just saying that I hadnt realized before that this could be as much of an impediment to adoption as it is sounding to me now like it is, which to me seems like a use case issue so Im bringing it up. I mean it would be less than ideal to develop a whole solution which is too unwieldy for our customers to adopt. >>>> Ethan. >>> If youre suggesting an IPv4-only solution, youre running up against https://www.iab.org/2016/11/07/iab-statement-on-ipv6/. >>> And theres interesting new IPv6-only video distribution models to which DetNet could be applied, like http://6cn.io/. >>> Tim >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Fri Nov 17 01:53:49 2017 Return-Path: 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Thread-Topic: [Detnet] DetNet and IPv4 Thread-Index: AQHTX4n0I3roG0J2T0ykL98mTNlCww== Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 09:53:43 +0000 Message-ID: <2996F1EF-3E77-4B8E-9A3E-28EA6F688B6D@cisco.com> References: <6df7ebba14494f8f9725c645077fa137@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> <5ce498a0-1b4a-a309-cf53-89a80a26f7d6@labn.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.27.0.171010 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.68.219.72] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <688E40D8BF51AF4794F65625C8C58586@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet and IPv4 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: 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(Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eJSpb-003CP4-71; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 16:28:55 -0700 From: Lou Berger To: DetNet WG Cc: DetNet Chairs , "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A (ATTLABS)" Message-ID: <988b4e9f-a95f-47a7-be57-6dfcd6dcafbc@labn.net> Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 18:28:55 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1eJSpb-003CP4-71 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.86.101]:46856 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Polling interest in DetNet Interim X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 23:29:02 -0000 Subject: Polling for interest in DetNet Interim WG, At IETF100 it was suggested that we consider an interim meeting to have some more focused discussion on resolving current major topics in the WG, notably the data plane related open issues reviewed at IETF100.  Some of our WG participants who also participate in IEEE 802.1 TSN have graciously offered to arrange for meeting space as part of their interim meeting and joint workshop with ITU-T Study Group 15.  The purpose of this message is to gauge interest in participating in this meeting, and confirming that we have critical mass to formally schedule this interim. The proposed schedule is as follows: - Jan 26 Friday afternoon -  IETF DetNet WG - IEEE 802.1 TSN TG joint session     ** REQUIRED if don't already have ITU Badge - Jan 27 Saturday - (optional) Joint IEEE 802 and ITU-T Study Group 15     workshop on Building Tomorrow’s Networks     //The afternoon is likely to be of interest to WG participants     //while the morning should allow informal discussion time - Jan 28/29 Sunday/Monday -- IETF DetNet Interim It is important to note that the meeting location requires an ITU badge for access and that badging will be limited to Friday and Monday -- YOU MUST ATTEND FRIDAY if you wish to participate in meetings on Saturday and Sunday.  There is no fee for attendance, but no snacks/cookies/food provided. If you are interested in attending, please send mail to the chairs or (preferably) fill out the doodle poll available at: https://doodle.com/poll/g23hnb7i3c54p97g Please let us know if you will definitely attend (if held) or would like to attend, but cannot yet commit. We'd like to confirm details in time for all to make travel arrangements. If at all possible please respond by COB December 4, if not earlier. Thank you, Pat and Lou From nobody Mon Nov 27 15:37:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 233CE124207 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:37:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.44 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.44 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_OBFUSCATE_05_10=0.26, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=broadcom.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TyhHU4w4QI5i for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:37:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x236.google.com (mail-qk0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 794F2126FB3 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:37:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-x236.google.com with SMTP id n3so34799540qkn.11 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:37:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=2GsZPNQLyJVOte1hlQ5Lvz0TEbbz+bsfLiOEZVljzqM=; b=ZanCsGCyKaiI6+YP4OkCnDIIxYjRxPDp13SzHSOcfgVu0/vP5yMZf+Kb+OWcp7mV44 dvrQvmOJKh+p6cSDC6qmNeuq7Fhaf3Ubn3f3htreIb7kyeCNYOsWAFRTHKRoj+NmE/x2 n0BnHjYtKhUfz5HdKj+igQDB6UsPLQKIZ5seY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=2GsZPNQLyJVOte1hlQ5Lvz0TEbbz+bsfLiOEZVljzqM=; b=VbqAILih9pcjFlU97mGDKNx7V89SdnPFr0Y9nmFG0jeTwg5JV6+u5VLtP8WZxvlkDV DyQoPfkHwIkqwDQdYEDZNHa2IL2egSArf4k+u5c4XF0e+UEnLY+686sdhz+7F3FCQlly m9gEeOC1Vr7BXaAcAa4IPHMCBB43Yg7v289Y72t/YWIJ09JReSmALB7DdWaqQ0ii+tgO 1sIiMujTgVVS9bbI4JSzuWXXSC/g6TSUAxLVxf5+USj1hCgcQPqoq6t1Vw1eKCOmF9e4 8xWOwizQ60TVbtD/X0DXgc3ZAFM2kqhf/V+f37N44rNfhxOztIFseEgBl4siJsKXV+36 c0qg== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX7NJ9/2DXY/HbR1hj0a0w48AeTiO11Eg2jSv2asQB9Hh1NaVYqI Pl9r44nUsN1PfscJz1I+wS37B0xhwbrZL9qq9oqqT0KE X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMYfZHLYbIvXRUndpzFE1gF27LUoWSAWKoYA+N8Wck3uZ29MIhYavsEr25YD4j1qpqckYjLnWoWpeVCnVA2mORA= X-Received: by 10.55.190.5 with SMTP id o5mr26279327qkf.241.1511825836146; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:37:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.104.229 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:37:15 -0800 (PST) From: Pat Thaler Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:37:15 -0800 Message-ID: To: detnet@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c043046ed3945055eff6131" Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 23:37:19 -0000 --94eb2c043046ed3945055eff6131 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" All, This is start of a two week poll on making draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model a working group document. Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. The poll ends 11 Decmber 2017. Thanks, Pat and Lou --94eb2c043046ed3945055eff6131 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All,

This is start of a two week poll on making
draft-farkas-det= net-flow-information-model=C2=A0a=C2=A0working=C2=A0group=C2=A0document. Please
send email= to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do notsupport"= .=C2=A0 If indicating no, please state your reservations with thedocument.=C2= =A0 If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd
like to see addr= essed once the document is a WG document.

The p= oll ends 11 Decmber 2017.

Thanks,
Pat and Lou
--94eb2c043046ed3945055eff6131-- From nobody Mon Nov 27 15:55:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8500129411 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:55:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o8uW-rOgMy1Y for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:55:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com [67.231.144.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E3A512940B for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:55:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0045961.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id vARNsavu006516 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:55:04 -0800 Received: from dlb-xchpw03.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.187.124]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2egv37g3qb-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:55:03 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:55:01 -0800 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:55:01 -0800 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model Thread-Index: AQHTZ9isDtkHCtCGCk21RXVkRV+AhKMo5myw Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 23:55:01 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.207.133.62] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_bcdb0de1aae14d2292841a98a8953420DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-11-27_12:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 23:55:07 -0000 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id 99.50.09556.1C32D1A5; Tue, 28 Nov 2017 09:52:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from [159.107.143.202] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.71) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.352.0; Tue, 28 Nov 2017 09:52:08 +0100 To: References: From: =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 09:52:08 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------5782CD66E9314A31E07BE1D1" X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrALMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7q+5BZdkog4bDIha/P81mcWD0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxqWeooKXMhWz73WyNDC+Feti5OSQEDCRuNC+gamLkYtDSOAw o8S1h39YQBJCAmsZJV60CYDYwgLBErM65jKD2CICohInpnSydzFyANUESJz8rgASZhOwl7h7 aQNYCS+QvbNjDSOIzSKgKtHxoZMZpFxUIEZifV8CRImgxMmZT8A2cQoESixb+RCshFkgTOJ/ Bz/EAWoSn94+ZJ/AyDcLSccshCoI017iwdYykApmAXmJ7W/nMEPY+hLX79xnhYk3b53NvICR 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draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model a workinggroup document. Please > send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not > support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the > document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd > like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. > > The poll ends 11 Decmber 2017. > > Thanks, > Pat and Lou > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet --------------5782CD66E9314A31E07BE1D1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit yes/support
Janos

On 11/28/2017 12:37 AM, Pat Thaler wrote:
All,

This is start of a two week poll on making
draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-modelaworkinggroupdocument. Please
send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not
support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the
document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd
like to see addressed once the document is a WG document.

The poll ends 11 Decmber 2017.

Thanks,
Pat and Lou


_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

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"detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model Thread-Index: AQHTZ9iwrdyDjdOw+k6gQ4vhtIFDcKMp7Ksw Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 15:34:38 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 15:34:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_d1c0d5e185be41d28b5676a4b2ef8ed4XCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 15:35:02 -0000 --_000_d1c0d5e185be41d28b5676a4b2ef8ed4XCHRCD001ciscocom_ 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tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hNxnvo7uBaDa for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2017 17:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D852E12025C for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2017 17:24:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (unknown [119.94.165.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 660BE180157E; Wed, 29 Nov 2017 02:24:11 +0100 (CET) To: Pat Thaler , detnet@ietf.org References: From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: <4c61f7f3-e505-8b54-669f-9d22de75a0bc@pi.nu> Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 09:24:00 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 01:24:16 -0000 yes/support /Loa On 2017-11-28 07:37, Pat Thaler wrote: > All, > > This is start of a two week poll on making > draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model a workinggroup document. Please > send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not > support".  If indicating no, please state your reservations with the > document.  If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd > like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. > > The poll ends 11 Decmber 2017. > > Thanks, > Pat and Lou > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > -- Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu Senior MPLS Expert Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Tue Nov 28 18:21:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8567D120454 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2017 18:21:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qvF72UR-27SM for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2017 18:21:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF7251200C5 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2017 18:21:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML713-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 2AF8ED7104F11 for ; Wed, 29 Nov 2017 02:21:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.38) by LHREML713-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.361.1; Wed, 29 Nov 2017 02:21:44 +0000 Received: from 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(PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.83.141 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Nov 2017 13:34:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 16:34:40 -0500 Message-ID: To: Pat Thaler Cc: detnet WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403043de4c4643b1e055f25e855" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 21:35:05 -0000 --f403043de4c4643b1e055f25e855 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Yes/support. Cheers, Andy On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 6:37 PM, Pat Thaler wrote: > All, > > This is start of a two week poll on making > draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model a working group document. > Please > send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not > support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the > document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd > like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. > > The poll ends 11 Decmber 2017. > > Thanks, > Pat and Lou > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > --f403043de4c4643b1e055f25e855 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes/support.

Cheers,
Andy


On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 6:37 PM, Pat Thaler <pat.thaler@broadc= om.com> wrote:
All,

This i= s start of a two week poll on making
draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model=C2=A0a=C2=A0working=C2=A0= group=C2=A0document. Please
send email to the list indicating "yes/suppor= t" or "no/do not
support".=C2=A0 If indicating no, please state y= our reservations with the
document.=C2=A0 If yes, please also feel free to prov= ide comments you'd
like to see addressed once the document is a WG document.=

The poll ends 11 Decmber 2017.

Thanks,
Pa= t and Lou

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

--f403043de4c4643b1e055f25e855-- From nobody Wed Nov 29 13:59:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07ED6126E01 for ; Wed, 29 Nov 2017 13:59:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id np6H7teZnqBa for ; Wed, 29 Nov 2017 13:59:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from dggwg11-dlp.huawei.com (lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com [194.213.3.62]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4325F124205 for ; Wed, 29 Nov 2017 13:59:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from DFWPML706-CHM.exmail.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.65]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id ADFA418D4463D; Wed, 29 Nov 2017 21:59:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWPML705-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.2.136]) by DFWPML706-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.3.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Wed, 29 Nov 2017 13:59:13 -0800 From: Norman Finn To: Pat Thaler , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model Thread-Index: AQHTZ9jDqua6odCdIUGlNeZBCBwZiKMr6tmQ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 21:59:12 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CF30C8@dfwpml705-chm.exmail.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.4.35] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CF30C8dfwpml705chmexmai_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 21:59:39 -0000 --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CF30C8dfwpml705chmexmai_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes/support -- Norm ________________________________ From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Pat Thaler [pat.thaler@= broadcom.com] Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 3:37 PM To: detnet@ietf.org Subject: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-mod= el All, This is start of a two week poll on making draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model a working group document. Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. The poll ends 11 Decmber 2017. Thanks, Pat and Lou --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CF30C8dfwpml705chmexmai_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes/support

-- Norm

From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] = on behalf of Pat Thaler [pat.thaler@broadcom.com]
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 3:37 PM
To: detnet@ietf.org
Subject: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-farkas-detnet-flow-informat= ion-model

All,

This is start of a two week poll on= making
draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model a working group docume= nt. Please
send email to the list indicating "ye= s/support" or "no/do not
support".  If indicating no, ple= ase state your reservations with the
document.  If yes, please also feel f= ree to provide comments you'd
like to see addressed once the document is= a WG document.

The poll ends 11 Decmber 2017.=

Thanks,
Pat and Lou
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16:46:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mscreen.etri.re.kr (mscreen.etri.re.kr [129.254.9.16]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AA401286B1 for ; Wed, 29 Nov 2017 16:46:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from unknown (HELO smtpeg.etri.re.kr) (129.254.27.142) by 129.254.9.16 with ESMTP; 30 Nov 2017 09:46:34 +0900 X-Original-SENDERIP: 129.254.27.142 X-Original-MAILFROM: ryoo@etri.re.kr X-Original-RCPTTO: detnet@ietf.org, pat.thaler@broadcom.com Received: from SMTP4.etri.info (129.254.28.74) by SMTPEG2.etri.info (129.254.27.142) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.319.2; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 09:46:38 +0900 Received: from SMTP2.etri.info ([169.254.2.11]) by SMTP4.etri.info ([10.2.6.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 09:46:37 +0900 From: "Ryoo, Jeong-dong " To: Pat Thaler , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model Thread-Index: AQHTZ9ivRkVIHHljak+lHINUHn7BIqMsGYFb Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 00:46:36 +0000 Message-ID: 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ESMTP id A51BF128B768B for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 11:09:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMA406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.47) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.361.1; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 11:09:08 +0000 Received: from DGGEMA501-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.225]) by DGGEMA406-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.47]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 19:09:05 +0800 From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" To: Pat Thaler , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model Thread-Index: AQHTZ9iy+LKZV3fYmE2+tLnJWk/yK6Msx2OA Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 11:09:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.169.123] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C04F30353DGGEMA501MBXchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected 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