From nobody Wed Jan 3 13:44:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1D52129C6C for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2018 13:44:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gem8AeyksGFS for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2018 13:44:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [67.222.33.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF7C51270AE for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2018 13:44:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw3 (unknown [10.0.90.84]) by gproxy8.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83D591AB38B for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2018 14:44:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmgw3 with id txkN1w01C2SSUrH01xkRJU; Wed, 03 Jan 2018 14:44:26 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=XM9AcUpE c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=-80DEDMye-IA:10 a=RgaUWeydRksA:10 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=eS-REJDx70ZzoMj99-kA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:Subject:From:Cc:To:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID: In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=0BCygPXLkNQYt4PE/87aHDD7cfg3RENooRD6FlyhBXU=; b=OjIBNTEnF5UdLfjN4AoUT4cBTv Cg47HpW7GGmz1HZYwNLCDvV2T+jqFOD4IskUq5dJfLYUMZ4TXwVaqg1q5O6cUTXlF/m1v2tweS2jw 5GxQXmKT+DgGsb/A0SbxeA34i; Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:38472 helo=fs2.dc.labn.net) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eWqpi-000mUg-Oo; Wed, 03 Jan 2018 14:44:22 -0700 To: DetNet WG Cc: iesg-secretary@ietf.org From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <765b0a8a-075f-7bd6-54df-cecf5c911665@labn.net> Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 16:44:22 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1eWqpi-000mUg-Oo X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net (fs2.dc.labn.net) [100.15.86.101]:38472 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 13 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Virtual interim on DetNet Data Plane - January 10, 1600-1800GMT. X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2018 21:44:29 -0000 All, We are planning to hold our first virtual interim to discuss the DetNet Data Plane document, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol . The intent is to work through open issues on the draft, starting with where we left off at IETF 100, see [1] and [2]. The meeting will be held January 10 at 1600GMT. We aiming for a 90 minute meeting, but are scheduling to allow 30 minutes of extra discussion time if needed. Webex details will be announced once available. The agenda is less formal than our normal meetings and is: - Administrivia, welcoming new co-chair (Chairs, 5 minutes) - Plan for addressing open issues on the draft, including future interims (Chairs, 5 minutes) - Review of IETF100 conclusions, and related planned document updates (TBD) Reference: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-100-detnet/ - Open issues discussion (Lead TBD) [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-detnet-3-detnet-data-plane-encapsulation-resolving-open-issues/ [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-detnet-3a-detnet-data-plane-encapsulation-resolving-open-issues-pref/ Thank you, DetNet WG Chairs From nobody Wed Jan 3 14:50:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EE7D120046; Wed, 3 Jan 2018 14:50:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IESG Secretary To: "IETF-Announce" Cc: detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.68.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <151501980651.18322.15290657865449244219@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2018 14:50:06 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Deterministic Networking (detnet) WG Virtual Meeting: 2018-01-10 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2018 22:50:06 -0000 The Deterministic Networking (detnet) Working Group will hold a virtual interim meeting on 2018-01-10 from 16:00 to 18:00 GMT. Agenda: We are planning to hold our first virtual interim to discuss the DetNet Data Plane document, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol . The intent is to work through open issues on the draft, starting with where we left off at IETF 100, see [1] and [2]. The meeting will be held January 10 at 1600GMT. We are aiming for a 90 minute meeting, but are scheduling to allow 30 minutes of extra discussion time if needed. Webex details will be announced once available. The agenda is less formal than our normal meetings and is: - Administrivia, welcoming new co-chair (Chairs, 5 minutes) - Plan for addressing open issues on the draft, including future interims (Chairs, 5 minutes) - Review of IETF100 conclusions, and related planned document updates (TBD) Reference: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-100-detnet/ - Open issues discussion (Lead TBD) [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-detnet-3-detnet-data-plane-encapsulation-resolving-open-issues/ [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-detnet-3a-detnet-data-plane-encapsulation-resolving-open-issues-pref/ Thank you, DetNet WG Chairs Information about remote participation: Webex details will be announced once available. From nobody Wed Jan 3 17:51:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6318B12D833 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2018 17:51:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id opn04_y0_iJN for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2018 17:51:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0628F124D37 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2018 17:51:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 755328AF7195F; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 01:51:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMA422-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.155) by LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.361.1; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 01:51:47 +0000 Received: from DGGEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.171]) by dggema422-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.198.155]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 09:51:32 +0800 From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" To: Toerless Eckert , Greg Mirsky , Alexandre Petrescu , "detnet@ietf.org" CC: "Grossman, Ethan A." , Mach Chen , Norman Finn Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases & slices suggestions Thread-Index: AQHTXouCnOES7TjcIkSI7Vuob/v/M6NjPDvg Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 01:51:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20171116033202.GX19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <20171116033202.GX19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.169.123] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C089605E1DGGEMA501MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases & slices suggestions X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2018 01:51:57 -0000 --_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C089605E1DGGEMA501MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1258" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Toerless, Thank you for your comments. They are very useful. Here is the revised text of Network Slicing Use Case. You can find some of = your suggested words are added into it, which have been highlighted. I hope perhaps Greg and Alex can also be satisfied with this version , beca= use a paragraph tries to respond to your comments about adding other use ca= ses mentioned in 3GPP . I have highlighted them too. This is open to discuss. Any other comments are welcome. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------- 10. Network Slicing 10.1. Use Case Description Network slicing divides one physical network infrastructure into multiple l= ogical networks. Each slice, corresponding to a logical network, uses resources and network functions independently from each other. Network= slicing provides flexibility of resource allocation and service quality customization. Future services will demand network performance with= a wide variety of characteristics such as high data rate, low latency, low loss rate, security and many other parameters. Ideally every s= ervice would have its own physical network satisfying its particular performance requirements; however that would be prohibitively expensive. Ne= twork slicing can provide a customized slice for a single service, and multiple slices can share the same physical network. This method can op= timize the performance for the service at lower cost, and the flexibility of setting up and release the slices also allows the user to al= locate the network resources dynamically. Unlike other DetNet use cases, Network slicing is not a specific application with specific deterministic r= equirements; it is proposed as a new requirement for the future network, which is still in discussion, and DetNet is a candidate solution for it. 10.2 Using DetNet in Network Slicing 10.2.1 Hard resource isolation across slices One of the requirements discussed for network slicing is the "hard" separat= ion of various users=92 deterministic performance. That is, it should be impossible for activity, lack of activity, or changes in activity of one= or more users to have any appreciable effect on the deterministic performance parameters of any other slices. Typical techniques used today, = which share a physical network among users, do not offer this kind of insulation. DetNet can supply point-to-point or point-to-multipoint= paths that offer bandwidth and latency guarantees to a user that cannot be affected by other users=92 data traffic. Thus DetNet is a powerfu= l tool when latency and reliability are required in Network Slicing. 10.2.2 Deterministic services within slices Slices need to be able to provide services that require DetNet type guarant= ees. Technically, DetNet in Network Slicing can be used just the same as DetNet without Network Slicing.(from Toerless) 10.3 Network Slicing Use Case Network Slicing is a core feature of 5G defined in 3GPP, which is currently= under development. A Network Slice in mobile network is a complete logical network including Radio Access Network (RAN) and Core Network (CN).= It provides telecommunication services and network capabilities, which may vary (or not) from slice to slice. A 5G bearer network is a typic= al use case of network slicing, including 3 service scenarios: enhanced Mobile Broadband (eMBB), Ultra-Reliable and Low Latency Communications (URL= LC), and massive Machine Type Communications (mMTC). Each of these are described below. =9F Enhanced Mobile Broadband (eMBB) eMBB focuses on services characterized by high data rates, such as high def= inition (HD) videos, virtual reality (VR), augmented reality (AR), and fixed mobile convergence (FMC). =9F Ultra-Reliable and Low Latency Communications (URLLC) URLLC focuses on latency-sensitive services, such as self-driving vehicles,= remote surgery, or drone control. =9F massive Machine Type Communications (mMTC) mMTC focuses on services that have high requirements for connection density= , such as those typical for smart city and smart agriculture use cases. 5G bearer uses DetNet to have hard resource isolation across slices and wit= hin the slice. For example, there are two slices in the network: Slice-A and Slice-B; DetN= et is used to transit URLLC services: URLLC-A and URLLC-B. Without DetNet, URLLC-A and URLLC-B compete for bandwidth resource. Latency and reliability= is not guaranteed; With DetNet, URLLC-A and URLLC-B have separate bandwidth reservation and there is no confliction between them, just as the= y are in different logical networks. Even though not necessary within the scope of work explicitly charted for s= lices in 5G: Whenever 5G or other network service providers see the opportunity to operate services described as use-cases in other sections of= this document across a shared physical infrastructure, network slices woul= d be the likely preferred approach to provide such services. Examples include= providing electrical utilities services (section 3.), pro audio services (section 2.) or V2X via slices. Use cases like these could become = more into the focus for network slices when the work for 5G core network ev= olution will include services that are more inclusive of even wired access options = required in those use-cases. ( part from Toerless and the highlighted text answers the question of Greg = and Alex) However, DetNet cannot cover every Network Slicing use case, and there are = some other problems to be solved. Firstly, DetNet is a point-to-point or point-to-multipoint technology while Network Slicing needs multi-point to m= ulti-point guarantee. Second, the number of flows that can be carried by DetNet is limited by DetNet scalability. Flow aggregation and queuing manag= ement modification may help to fix the problem. More work and discussions are needed in these topics. 10.4 Network Slicing Today and Future Network slicing can satisfy the requirements of a lot of future deployment = scenario, but it is still a collection of ideas and analysis, without a spe= cific technical solution. A lot of technologies, such as Flex-E, Segment Routing,= and DetNet have potential to be used in Network Slicing. For more details please see IETF99 Network Slicing BOF session agenda and materials. 10.5. Network Slicing Asks =9F Isolation from other flows through Queuing Management =9F Service Quality Customization and Guarantee =9F Security ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------- Best Regards Xuesong >-----Original Message----- >From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:tte@cs.fau.de] >Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 11:32 AM >To: detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases@ietf.org >Subject: draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases & slices suggestions > >Wrt to my comments on the mike@singapore re. slicing use-case: > >First of all i would like to reinforce Stewarts statement that we should n= ot >remove slicing from the use-case draft. My point was different: making the >importance for detnet in slicing clearer - because i think it is hierarchi= cal and >multi-faceted, and that does not well reflect in the current text. > >Following suggestions for improvements aside, the existing text of 10. is = already >very nicely enlightening about slices, more so than i have seen in other p= laces. > >A) I would not call 10.1 "Use Case Description" but instead "Technology >Description" > >B) 10.3 up to the the "However" is IMHO the most fundamental use-case for >detnet > in the slicing realm. It should be moved and become e.g.: a new 10.2.1 >use-case, > here is proposed changed paragraphs: > > 10.2.1 Hard resource isolation across slices > > |Network slicing aims to provide logical networks with hard resource > |separation guarantees between those different logical networks. > |Hard resource separation means that it should be impossible for activit= y, > |lack of activity, or changes in activity of one or more slices to have > |any appreciable effect on the deterministic performance parameters of a= ny > |other slices. > > |Typical techniques used today (for example in pre-existing logical/virt= ual > |network solutions), which share a physical network amongst users, do > |not offer this kind of insulation. DetNet can supply point-to-point > |or point-to-multipoint paths that offer bandwidth and latency > |guarantees to a slice that cannot be affected by other slices data > |traffic. > > I hope i did correctly interpret "user" to mean "slice", because, but ev= en > if not, i think the above is correct: If we want to have strict separati= on > guarantees btween different users inside the same clice, that is IMHO a > separate use case within the slicing technology: > >C) I would group existing 10.2.1...10.2.3 under a common use-case, maybe: > > 10.2.2 Deterministic services within slices > > Slices need to be able to provide services that require detnet type > guarantees. These requirements would equally make the use of detnet > for these services a requirement if the service was not provided via a > logical network slice but via a separate physcial network (and therefor= e > the use-case requirement of 10.2.1 would not exist) > > A 5G bearer network is a typical ... > [ Make existing 10.2.1...10.2.3 become eg: 10.2.2.1 ... 10.2.2.3] > > >D) It would be nice to have more clarifying details > about the sentence "A 5G bearer network is a typical > use case of network slicing, including 3 service scenarios" > > If the answer to my questions are not really clear because 3GPP has not > make up its mind what exactly is required, then maybe phrase the text > accordingly (3GPP has not yet decided where or...): > > 1. Will 3GPP want to have slices which are NOT 5G bearer networks ? > if yes, then say this. > > 2. For a network slice which is a 5G bearer network, would it have > only one of the 3 service scenarios, or any subset of the 3 ? > > 3. If the answer to 1. is "yes, also slices that are not 3GPP bearers", > would any or all of the three mentioned service scenarios also > be required in those non-3GPP slices ? > >E) It might be useful to add text stating that use cases for detnet > mentioned in other sections of the document would likely become > use cases of slices in the future. > > Possible suggested text: > > Even though not necesary within the scope of work explicitly charted > for slices in 5G: Whenever 5G or other network service providers see th= e > opportunity to operate services described as use-cases in other section= s of > this document across a shared physcial infrastructure, network slices > would be the likely preferred approach to provide such services. > > Examples include providing electrical utilities services (section 3.) > or pro audio services (section 2.) via slices. Use cases like these cou= ld >become > more into the focus for network slices when the work for 5G core > network evolution will include services that are more inclusive of > even wired access options required in those use-cases. > >F) Another likely evolution of slices worthwhile to notice: > > Slices may equally become the preferred mode of providing services that > are otherwise considered to be out of scope in this document, such as > those in 12.2. These can easily come into scope when Mobile Edge Comput= e > ressources connecting to slices can allow to provide detnet service >guarantees > to these use-cases by eliminating the uncontrolled parts of a path > between servers and client. > >Cheers > Toerless > >On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 09:06:40AM +0000, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: >> Tal does this work for you? >> Ethan. >> >> On Nov 13, 2017, at 3:48 PM, Norman Finn >>> >wrote: >> >> Sounds like Tuesday 16:00. Right? Near registration. >> >> -- Norm >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] >> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 8:16 PM >> To: Das, Subir >> Cc: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw); Norman Finn; >> draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org >> ietf.org>; detnet@ietf.org>; Gary Weiner >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up >> >> I can do Tuesday 16:00. I have a commitment Tuesday at 18:30. >> Ethan. >> >> On Nov 13, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Das, Subir >>> wrote: >> >> I arrived today but can't make it on Tuesday at 13:30. Available from 1= 6:00. >> ________________________________ >> From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] >> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 10:15 PM >> To: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) >> Cc: Norman Finn; >> draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org >> ietf.org>; detnet@ietf.org>; Gary Weiner >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up >> >> Yes I was agreeing to Tuesday. >> Ethan. >> >> On Nov 13, 2017, at 10:46 AM, Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) >>> wrote: >> >> On Tuesday. Correct ? >> >> Patrick >> >> From: detnet >> >> on behalf of "Grossman, Ethan A." >> >> >> Date: Monday, 13 November 2017 at 03:43 >> To: Norman Finn >> >>> >, >> "draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org> @ietf.org>" >> > @ietf.org>> >> Cc: "detnet@ietf.org" >> >>, Gary Weiner >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up >> >> Meet at 13:30 at IETF Registration? >> Ethan. >> >> From: Norman Finn [mailto:norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com] >> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 4:52 PM >> To: Grossman, Ethan A. >>; >> draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org >> ietf.org> >> Cc: Gary Weiner >>; >> detnet@ietf.org> >> Subject: RE: DetNet Security Meet-Up >> >> Yes, let's get together. Right now, any time Tuesday after lunch would = be >fine. >> >> -- Norm >> ________________________________ >> From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] >> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:59 AM >> To: >> draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org >> ietf.org> >> Cc: Gary Weiner; detnet@ietf.org> >> Subject: DetNet Security Meet-Up >> Hello DetNet Security draft authors, (and adding the DetNet list since >> we are now a WG draft and would like to include anyone who has any inter= est), >Tal and I are here in Singapore and would like to know if any of the rest = of you >might be here in town and might want to meet up over lunch or dinner (or >something) to discuss DetNet security, e.g. next steps for the DetNet Secu= rity >draft. If so, please reply and we can plan something. >> Thanks, >> Ethan. >> Ethan Grossman, DetNet Security Draft editor. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > >-- >--- >tte@cs.fau.de --_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C089605E1DGGEMA501MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1258" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

H= i Toerless,

<= o:p> 

T= hank you for your comments. They are very useful.

H= ere is the revised text of Network Slicing Use Case. You can find some of y= our suggested words are added into it, which have been highlighted.

I= hope perhaps Greg and Alex can also be satisfied with this version , becau= se a paragraph tries to respond to your comments about adding other use cas= es mentioned in 3GPP . I have highlighted them too.

T= his is open to discuss.

A= ny other comments are welcome.

----------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------

10. Network Slicing

10.1. Use Case Description

N= etwork slicing divides one physical network infrastructure into multiple lo= gical networks. Each slice, corresponding to a logical network,

u= ses resources and network functions independently from each other. Network = slicing provides flexibility of resource allocation and service

q= uality customization. Future services will demand network performance with = a wide variety of characteristics such as high data rate, low

l= atency, low loss rate, security and many other parameters. Ideally every se= rvice would have its own physical network satisfying its particular

p= erformance requirements; however that would be prohibitively expensive. Net= work slicing can provide a customized slice for a single service,

a= nd multiple slices can share the same physical network. This method can opt= imize the performance for the service at lower cost, and the

f= lexibility of setting up and release the slices also allows the user to all= ocate the network resources dynamically. Unlike other DetNet use cases,

N= etwork slicing is not a specific application with specific deterministic re= quirements; it is proposed as a new requirement for the future network,

w= hich is still in discussion, and DetNet is a candidate solution for it.

 

1= 0.2 Using DetNet in Network Slicing

1= 0.2.1 Hard resource isolation across slices

One = of the requirements discussed for network slicing is the "hard" s= eparation of various users=92 deterministic performance. That is, it should

be i= mpossible for activity, lack of activity, or changes in activity of one or = more users to have any appreciable effect on the deterministic

perf= ormance parameters of any other slices. Typical techniques used today, whic= h share a physical network among users, do not offer this

kind= of insulation. DetNet can supply point-to-point or point-to-multipoint pat= hs that offer bandwidth and latency guarantees to a user that

cann= ot be affected by other users=92 data traffic. Thus DetNet is a powerful to= ol when latency and reliability are required in Network Slicing.=

 

1= 0.2.2 Deterministic services within slices

Slices need to be able to provide services that require = DetNet type guarantees. Technically, DetNet in Network Slicing can be used = just the

same as DetNet without Network Slicing.(from Toerless)

 

1= 0.3 Network Slicing Use Case

Netw= ork Slicing is a core feature of 5G defined in 3GPP, which is currently und= er development. A Network Slice in mobile network is a complete

logi= cal network including Radio Access Network (RAN) and Core Network (CN). It = provides telecommunication services and network capabilities,

whic= h may vary (or not) from slice to slice. A 5G bearer network is a typical u= se case of network slicing, including 3 service scenarios: enhanced

Mobi= le Broadband (eMBB), Ultra-Reliable and Low Latency Communications (URLLC),= and massive Machine Type Communications (mMTC).

 

Each= of these are described below.

<= span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=9F   Enhanced Mobile Broa= dband (eMBB)

eMBB= focuses on services characterized by high data rates, such as high definit= ion (HD) videos, virtual reality (VR), augmented reality (AR),

and = fixed mobile convergence (FMC).

<= span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=9F   Ultra-Reliable and L= ow Latency Communications (URLLC)

URLL= C focuses on latency-sensitive services, such as self-driving vehicles, rem= ote surgery, or drone control.

<= span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=9F   massive Machine Type= Communications (mMTC)

mMTC= focuses on services that have high requirements for connection density, su= ch as those typical for smart city and smart agriculture use cases.

 

5G b= earer uses DetNet to have hard resource isolation across slices and within = the slice.

 

For = example, there are two slices in the network: Slice-A and Slice-B; DetNet i= s used to transit URLLC services: URLLC-A and URLLC-B. Without DetNet,

URLL= C-A and URLLC-B compete for bandwidth resource. Latency and reliability is = not guaranteed; With DetNet, URLLC-A and URLLC-B have separate

band= width reservation and there is no confliction between them, just as they ar= e in different logical networks.

 

Even though not necessary within the scope of work explicit= ly charted for slices in 5G: Whenever 5G or other network service providers= see the

opportunity to operate services described as use-cases in o= ther sections of this document across a shared physical infrastructure, net= work slices would

be the likely preferred approach to provide such services. Examples include pro= viding electrical utilities services (section 3.), pro audio

services (section 2.= ) or V2X via slices. Use ca= ses like these could become more into the focus for network slices when the work for 5G core network evolution =

will include services that are more inclusive of even wired= access options required in those use-cases.

( part from Toerless and the highlighted text answer= s the question of Greg and Alex)

 

Howe= ver, DetNet cannot cover every Network Slicing use case, and there are some= other problems to be solved. Firstly, DetNet is a point-to-point or

poin= t-to-multipoint technology while Network Slicing needs multi-point to multi= -point guarantee. Second, the number of flows that can be carried by

DetN= et is limited by DetNet scalability. Flow aggregation and queuing managemen= t modification may help to fix the problem. More work and discussions

are = needed in these topics.

 

1= 0.4 Network Slicing Today and Future

Netw= ork slicing can satisfy the requirements of a lot of future deployment scen= ario, but it is still a collection of ideas and analysis, without a specifi= c

tech= nical solution. A lot of technologies, such as Flex-E, Segment Routing, and= DetNet have potential to be used in Network Slicing. For more details

plea= se see IETF99 Network Slicing BOF session agenda and materials.

 

1= 0.5. Network Slicing Asks

<= span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=9F   Isolation from other fl= ows through Queuing Management

<= span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=9F   Service Quality Customi= zation and Guarantee

<= span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=9F   Security

<= o:p> 

----------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------

 

 

Best Regards

 

Xuesong

 

 

 

>-----Original Message---= --

>From: Toerless Eckert [m= ailto:tte@cs.fau.de]

>Sent: Thursday, November= 16, 2017 11:32 AM

>To: detnet@ietf.org; dra= ft-ietf-detnet-use-cases@ietf.org

>Subject: draft-ietf-detn= et-use-cases & slices suggestions

> =

>Wrt to my comments on th= e mike@singapore re. slicing use-case:

> =

>First of all i would lik= e to reinforce Stewarts statement that we should not

>remove slicing from the = use-case draft. My point was different: making the

>importance for detnet in= slicing clearer - because i think it is hierarchical and=

>multi-faceted, and that = does not well reflect in the current text.

> =

>Following suggestions fo= r improvements aside, the existing text of 10. is already=

>very nicely enlightening= about slices, more so than i have seen in other places.<= /p>

> =

>A) I would not call 10.1= "Use Case Description" but instead "Technology

>Description"

> =

>B) 10.3 up to the the &q= uot;However" is IMHO the most fundamental use-case for

>detnet=

>  in the slicing re= alm. It should be moved and become e.g.: a new 10.2.1

>use-case,

>  here is proposed = changed paragraphs:

> =

>  10.2.1 Hard resou= rce isolation across slices

> =

>  |Network slicing = aims to provide logical networks with hard resource

>  |separation guara= ntees between those different logical networks.

>  |Hard resource se= paration means that it should be impossible for activity,=

>  |lack of activity= , or changes in activity of one or more slices to have

>  |any appreciable = effect on the deterministic performance parameters of any=

>  |other slices.

> =

>  |Typical techniqu= es used today (for example in pre-existing logical/virtual

>  |network solution= s), which share a physical network amongst users, do

>  |not offer this k= ind of insulation.  DetNet can supply point-to-point=

>  |or point-to-mult= ipoint paths that offer bandwidth and latency

>  |guarantees to a = slice that cannot be affected by other slices data

>  |traffic.

> =

>  I hope i did corr= ectly interpret "user" to mean "slice", because, but ev= en

>  if not, i think t= he above is correct: If we want to have strict separation=

>  guarantees btween= different users inside the same clice, that is IMHO a

>  separate use case= within the slicing technology:

> =

>C) I would group existin= g 10.2.1...10.2.3 under a common use-case, maybe:

> =

>   10.2.2 Dete= rministic services within slices

> =

>   Slices need= to be able to provide services that require detnet type<= /p>

>   guarantees.= These requirements would equally make the use of detnet<= /p>

>   for these s= ervices a requirement if the service was not provided via a

>   logical net= work slice but via a separate physcial network (and therefore

>   the use-cas= e requirement of 10.2.1 would not exist)

> =

>   A 5G bearer= network is a typical  ...

>   [ Make exis= ting 10.2.1...10.2.3 become eg: 10.2.2.1 ... 10.2.2.3]

> =

> =

>D) It would be nice to h= ave more clarifying details

>   about the s= entence "A 5G bearer network is a typical

>   use case of= network slicing, including 3 service scenarios"

> =

>   If the answ= er to my questions are not really clear because 3GPP has not

>   make up its= mind what exactly is required, then maybe phrase the text

>   accordingly= (3GPP has not yet decided where or...):

> =

>   1. Will 3GP= P want to have slices which are NOT 5G bearer networks ?<= /p>

>    = if yes, then say this.

> =

>   2. For a ne= twork slice which is a 5G bearer network, would it have

>    = only one of the 3 service scenarios, or any subset of the 3 ?

> =

>   3. If the a= nswer to 1. is "yes, also slices that are not 3GPP bearers",=

>    =   would any or all of the three mentioned service scenarios also<= /o:p>

>    =   be required in those non-3GPP slices ?

> =

>E) It might be useful to= add text stating that use cases for detnet

>   mentioned i= n other sections of the document would likely become

>   use cases o= f slices in the future.

> =

>   Possible su= ggested text:

> =

>   Even though= not necesary within the scope of work explicitly charted=

>   for slices = in 5G: Whenever 5G or other network service providers see the

>   opportunity= to operate services described as use-cases in other sections of=

>   this docume= nt across a shared physcial infrastructure, network slices

>   would be th= e likely preferred approach to provide such services.

> =

>   Examples in= clude providing electrical utilities services (section 3.)

>   or pro audi= o services (section 2.) via slices. Use cases like these could

>become=

>   more into t= he focus for network slices when the work for 5G core

>   network evo= lution will include services that are more inclusive of

>   even wired = access options required in those use-cases.

> =

>F) Another likely evolut= ion of slices worthwhile to notice:

> =

>   Slices may = equally become the preferred mode of providing services that

>   are otherwi= se considered to be out of scope in this document, such as

>   those in 12= .2. These can easily come into scope when Mobile Edge Compute

>   ressources = connecting to slices can allow to provide detnet service<= /p>

>guarantees

>   to these us= e-cases by eliminating the uncontrolled parts of a path

>   between ser= vers and client.

> =

>Cheers=

>    Toerl= ess

> =

>On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at = 09:06:40AM +0000, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

>> Tal does this work = for you?

>> Ethan.

>> 

>> On Nov 13, 2017, at= 3:48 PM, Norman Finn

><norman.finn@mail01.huawei.co= m<mailto:norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com>>

>wrote:=

>> 

>> Sounds like Tuesday= 16:00.  Right?  Near registration.

>> 

>> -- Norm<= /span>

>> 

>> ___________________= _____________

>> From: Grossman, Eth= an A. [eagros@dolby.com<mailto:eagros@dolby.com>]

>> Sent: Sunday, Novem= ber 12, 2017 8:16 PM

>> To: Das, Subir=

>> Cc: Patrick Wetterw= ald (pwetterw); Norman Finn;

>> draft-ietf-detnet-sec= urity@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-security@<= /span>

>> ietf.org>; detnet@ietf.org<ma= ilto:detnet@ietf.org>; Gary Weiner

>> Subject: Re: [Detne= t] DetNet Security Meet-Up

>> 

>> I can do Tuesday 16= :00. I have a commitment Tuesday at 18:30.

>> Ethan.

>> 

>> On Nov 13, 2017, at= 11:27 AM, Das, Subir

><sdas@appcomsci.com<mailto:sdas@appcomsci.com>> wrote:

>> 

>> I arrived today but= can't  make it on Tuesday at 13:30. Available from 16:00.<= /span>

>> ___________________= _____________

>> From: Grossman, Eth= an A. [eagros@dolby.com<mailto:eagros@dolby.com>]

>> Sent: Sunday, Novem= ber 12, 2017 10:15 PM

>> To: Patrick Wetterw= ald (pwetterw)

>> Cc: Norman Finn;

>> draft-ietf-detnet-sec= urity@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-security@<= /span>

>> ietf.org>; detnet@ietf.org<ma= ilto:detnet@ietf.org>; Gary Weiner

>> Subject: Re: [Detne= t] DetNet Security Meet-Up

>> 

>> Yes I was agreeing = to Tuesday.

>> Ethan.

>> 

>> On Nov 13, 2017, at= 10:46 AM, Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)

><pwetterw@cisco.com<mailto:pwetterw@cisco.com>> wrote:

>> 

>> On Tuesday. Correct= ?

>> 

>> Patrick<= /span>

>> 

>> From: detnet <<= span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">detnet-bounces@ietf.or= g<mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org>>

>> on behalf of "= Grossman, Ethan A."

>> <eagros@dolby.com<mailto:eagros@dolby.com>>

>> Date: Monday, 13 No= vember 2017 at 03:43

>> To: Norman Finn

>> 

><norman.finn@mail01.huawei.co= m<mailto:norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com>>

>,

>> "draft-ietf-de= tnet-security@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-security

>> @ietf.org>"=

>> <draft-ietf-detn= et-security@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-security=

>> @ietf.org>>

>> Cc: "detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.or= g>"

>> <detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>>, Gary Weiner

>> <Gary@Apriori-NET.COM<mailto:Gary@Aprio= ri-NET.COM>>

>> Subject: Re: [Detne= t] DetNet Security Meet-Up

>> 

>> Meet at 13:30 at IE= TF Registration?

>> Ethan.

>> 

>> From: Norman Finn [= mailto:norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com= ]

>> Sent: Sunday, Novem= ber 12, 2017 4:52 PM

>> To: Grossman, Ethan= A. <eagros@dolby.com<mailto= :eagros@dolby.com>>;

>> draft-ietf-detnet-sec= urity@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-security@<= /span>

>> ietf.org>

>> Cc: Gary Weiner <= ;Gary@Apriori-NET.COM<m= ailto:Gary@Apriori-NET.COM>>;

>> detnet@ietf.org<ma= ilto:detnet@ietf.org>

>> Subject: RE: DetNet= Security Meet-Up

>> 

>> Yes, let's get toge= ther.  Right now, any time Tuesday after lunch would be

>fine.<= /p>

>> 

>> -- Norm<= /span>

>> ___________________= _____________

>> From: Grossman, Eth= an A. [eagros@dolby.com<mailto:eagros@dolby.com>]

>> Sent: Sunday, Novem= ber 12, 2017 3:59 AM

>> To:

>> draft-ietf-detnet-sec= urity@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-security@<= /span>

>> ietf.org>

>> Cc: Gary Weiner; detnet@ietf.org<ma= ilto:detnet@ietf.org>

>> Subject: DetNet Sec= urity Meet-Up

>> Hello DetNet Securi= ty draft authors, (and adding the DetNet list since

>> we are now a WG dra= ft and would like to include anyone who has any interest),

>Tal and I are here in Si= ngapore and would like to know if any of the rest of you<= /p>

>might be here in town an= d might want to meet up over lunch or dinner (or

>something) to discuss De= tNet security, e.g. next steps for the DetNet Security

>draft. If so, please rep= ly and we can plan something.

>> Thanks,<= /span>

>> Ethan.

>> Ethan Grossman, Det= Net Security Draft editor.

>> 

>> ___________________= ____________________________

>> detnet mailing list=

>> detnet@ietf.org<ma= ilto:detnet@ietf.org>

>> https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/detnet

> =

>> ___________________= ____________________________

>> detnet mailing list=

>> detne= t@ietf.org

>> https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/detnet

> =

> =

>--

>---

>tte@cs.fau.d= e

--_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C089605E1DGGEMA501MBSchi_-- From nobody Thu Jan 4 09:40:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6FE5126579 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 09:40:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32dWdXitb6us for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 09:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy9-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy9-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.20.122]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E0CEE124205 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 09:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw2 (unknown [10.0.90.83]) by gproxy9.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FA8B1E07FE for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 10:40:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmgw2 with id uHgL1w00Z2SSUrH01HgPoh; Thu, 04 Jan 2018 10:40:24 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=doKrMxo4 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=-80DEDMye-IA:10 a=RgaUWeydRksA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=NojvYFcnAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=NtUhTAZNZ5AKB2lW8s0A:9 a=IPAN2tawJeDWE8rc:21 a=RoTJSzbGqiZKRTfD:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=NU7HZUQD-k8A:10 a=T8E0iRN_syYA:10 a=9uUzcS5Nrb8A:10 a=NkLyW8Yi3I1shTL1VosA:9 a=pt9G7I5XmLUTiVRDx3fboKQV4P0=:19 a=2wSGZ2gvs7oA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From: References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID :Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To: Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe :List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=mosUic6RAWyG6H6lJAIpwFUv/HFTeNCVBegWku7rPWY=; b=0OLM6GBd1MPDqO1NcxemHwgyuG CWFFgL8i02zxvXiZHMGNNdfTDezZOZmoyQ/74ashoNjGjiVe9Q+vwo05KWFoIDNjiuVxEkicgFPNp Nz4lZoDsR6JP2YlQYmN4nSn8m; Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:41098 helo=fs2.dc.labn.net) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eX9V5-0020Ty-ST for detnet@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Jan 2018 10:40:20 -0700 To: detnet@ietf.org References: <765b0a8a-075f-7bd6-54df-cecf5c911665@labn.net> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <4723b843-c88f-4a98-45ba-028f9771effe@labn.net> Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 12:40:19 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <765b0a8a-075f-7bd6-54df-cecf5c911665@labn.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------BCBCAD41DD88CF200BAD7A7D" Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1eX9V5-0020Ty-ST X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net (fs2.dc.labn.net) [100.15.86.101]:41098 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Virtual interim on DetNet Data Plane - January 10, 1600-1800GMT. X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2018 17:40:27 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BCBCAD41DD88CF200BAD7A7D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI: Webex info and ics JOIN WEBEX MEETING https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m26d7c8181b1442dce36d83c55a861b6b Meeting number (access code): 640 969 470 Meeting password: dp-sol JOIN BY PHONE 1-877-668-4493 Call-in toll free number (US/Canada) 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) Toll-free dialing restrictions: https://www.webex.com/pdf/tollfree_restrictions.pdf Can't join the meeting? Contact support here: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/mc NOTICE: This session will be recorded On 01/03/2018 04:44 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > > > All, > > We are planning to hold our first virtual interim to discuss the > DetNet Data Plane document, > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol . The intent is to > work through open issues on the draft, starting with where we left off > at IETF 100, see [1] and [2]. > > The meeting will be held January 10 at 1600GMT. We aiming for a 90 > minute meeting, but are scheduling to allow 30 minutes of extra > discussion time if needed. Webex details will be announced once available. > > The agenda is less formal than our normal meetings and is: > > - Administrivia, welcoming new co-chair (Chairs, 5 minutes) > - Plan for addressing open issues on the draft, including future > interims (Chairs, 5 minutes) > - Review of IETF100 conclusions, and related planned document updates > (TBD) > Reference: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-100-detnet/ > - Open issues discussion (Lead TBD) > > [1] > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-detnet-3-detnet-data-plane-encapsulation-resolving-open-issues/ > > [2] > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-detnet-3a-detnet-data-plane-encapsulation-resolving-open-issues-pref/ > > Thank you, > > DetNet WG Chairs > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --------------BCBCAD41DD88CF200BAD7A7D Content-Type: text/calendar; name="WebEx_Meeting.ics" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="WebEx_Meeting.ics" BEGIN:VCALENDAR PRODID:-//Microsoft Corporation//Outlook 10.0 MIMEDIR//EN VERSION:2.0 METHOD:REQUEST BEGIN:VTIMEZONE TZID:Eastern Time BEGIN:STANDARD DTSTART:20161101T020000 RRULE:FREQ=3DYEARLY;INTERVAL=3D1;BYDAY=3D1SU;BYMONTH=3D11 TZOFFSETFROM:-0400 TZOFFSETTO:-0500 TZNAME:Standard Time END:STANDARD BEGIN:DAYLIGHT DTSTART:20160301T020000 RRULE:FREQ=3DYEARLY;INTERVAL=3D1;BYDAY=3D2SU;BYMONTH=3D3 TZOFFSETFROM:-0500 TZOFFSETTO:-0400 TZNAME:Daylight Savings Time END:DAYLIGHT END:VTIMEZONE BEGIN:VEVENT ATTENDEE;CN=3D"DetNet Working Group";ROLE=3DREQ-PARTICIPANT;RSVP=3DFALSE:= MAILTO:detnet-chairs@ietf.org ORGANIZER;CN=3D"webex":MAILTO:messenger@webex.com DTSTART;TZID=3D"Eastern Time":20180110T110000 DTEND;TZID=3D"Eastern Time":20180110T130000 LOCATION:https://ietf.webex.com/ietf TRANSP:OPAQUE SEQUENCE:1515086883 UID:0285faec-be10-4bdc-a306-96644fe66049 DTSTAMP:20180110T160000Z DESCRIPTION:\n\nJOIN WEBEX MEETING\nhttps://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTI= D=3Dm26d7c8181b1442dce36d83c55a861b6b\nMeeting number (access code): 640 = 969 470\nMeeting password: dp-sol\n\n\n\nJOIN BY PHONE\n1-877-668-4493 Ca= ll-in toll free number (US/Canada) \n1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (= US/Canada)\n\nToll-free dialing restrictions: \nhttps://www.webex.com/pdf= /tollfree_restrictions.pdf\n\n\n\nCan't join the meeting? 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IMPORTANT NOTICE: Please note that this WebEx s= ervice allows audio and other information sent during the session to be r= ecorded, which may be discoverable in a legal matter. You should inform a= ll meeting attendees prior to recording if you intend to record the meeti= ng. SUMMARY:Interim: DetNet Data Plane PRIORITY:5 CLASS:PUBLIC BEGIN:VALARM TRIGGER:-PT5M ACTION:DISPLAY DESCRIPTION:Reminder END:VALARM END:VEVENT END:VCALENDAR --------------BCBCAD41DD88CF200BAD7A7D-- From nobody Mon Jan 8 03:00:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92BE81275FD for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 03:00:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.688 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.688 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, GB_SUMOF=5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HSIwL8Jb9FVQ for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 03:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp5.epfl.ch (smtp5.epfl.ch [IPv6:2001:620:618:1e0:1:80b2:e034:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C031127599 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 03:00:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 6493 invoked by uid 107); 8 Jan 2018 11:00:15 -0000 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV Received: from icsil1noteb199.epfl.ch (HELO [128.178.151.248]) (128.178.151.248) (TLS, ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (X25519 curve) cipher) (authenticated) by mail.epfl.ch (AngelmatoPhylax SMTP proxy) with ESMTPSA; Mon, 08 Jan 2018 12:00:15 +0100 X-EPFL-Auth: /4v0ypYXLdq7Q719UPndzwTca7LOuJJ0ozFh8uRuhYPn9XnoLF0= From: Le Boudec Jean-Yves To: detnet@ietf.org Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 12:00:15 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] End-to-end latency versus per-hop latency bounds X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 11:00:22 -0000 There are cases in detnet where the end-to-end latency is less than the sum of the latencies at every hop: - If the detnet nodes uses per-flow scheduling, the worst case end-to-end queuing delay is less than the sum of the worst case queuing delays at every hop because all worst cases cannot happen at the same time (pay burst only once [3]). - A similar case arises if the detnet nodes use the Urgency Based Scheduler defined by IEEE 802.1 TSN for asynchronous traffic shaping [4]. Here, a packet may be delayed (1) at a switch output port due to output port queuing and class-based scheduling and (2) at the next downstream node due to the urgency based scheduler, which reshapes individual flows in order to avoid cascades of burstiness increase. The worst case of the sum of the delays at (1) and (2) is strictly less than the sum of the worst cases of (1) and (2) this is an instance of reshaping is for free [3]. Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and gathered per node, which is sufficient in these cases to find the worst case end-to-end delay. If the only information available to a path computation application is the per-hop latency, then the computed end-to-end latency bound will be the sum of the per-hop bounds, which may be much more than the end-to-end latency that would be computed by a path computation application that would be aware of the presence of per-flow scheduling or of urgency based schedulers. Therefore, it seems that these drafts should be adapted to allow for an accurate computation of the end-to-end latency. [1] draft-finn-bounded-latency [2] draft-geng-detnet-conf-yang-00 [3] slides-100-detnet-applicability-of-network-calculus-to-detnet-02 [4] http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2015/new-tsn-specht-ubs-queues-0521-v0.pdf Best, JY From nobody Mon Jan 8 04:05:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6843E126BF6 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 04:05:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_SUMOF=5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 59miNM96NIIC for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 04:05:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp5.epfl.ch (smtp5.epfl.ch [IPv6:2001:620:618:1e0:1:80b2:e034:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEEE0124BAC for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 04:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 13764 invoked by uid 107); 8 Jan 2018 12:05:12 -0000 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV Received: from icsil1noteb199.epfl.ch (HELO [128.178.151.248]) (128.178.151.248) (TLS, ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (X25519 curve) cipher) (authenticated) by mail.epfl.ch (AngelmatoPhylax SMTP proxy) with ESMTPSA; Mon, 08 Jan 2018 13:05:12 +0100 X-EPFL-Auth: DTC4dGSwMG5KQpTqoG33VUoOoaSJV9ezshLDsaLYUS0r/xtXApw= From: Le Boudec Jean-Yves To: detnet@ietf.org References: Message-ID: <85a60b00-70ee-308d-22c7-dbd9bf84d618@epfl.ch> Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 13:05:11 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------DFB37C42C73E06BC5460B392" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] End-to-end latency versus per-hop latency bounds X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 12:05:17 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------DFB37C42C73E06BC5460B392 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit typo correction, sorry -- JY Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and gathered per node, which is NOT sufficient in these cases to find the worst case end-to-end delay. On 08.01.2018 12:00, Le Boudec Jean-Yves wrote: > There are cases in detnet where the end-to-end latency is less than > the sum of the latencies at every hop: > > - If the detnet nodes uses per-flow scheduling, the worst case > end-to-end queuing delay is less than the sum of the worst case > queuing delays at every hop because all worst cases cannot happen at > the same time (pay burst only once [3]). > > - A similar case arises if the detnet nodes use the Urgency Based > Scheduler defined by IEEE 802.1 TSN for asynchronous traffic shaping > [4]. Here, a packet may be delayed (1) at a switch output port due to > output port queuing and class-based scheduling and (2) at the next > downstream node due to the urgency based scheduler, which reshapes > individual flows in order to avoid cascades of burstiness increase. > The worst case of the sum of the delays at (1) and (2) is strictly > less than the sum of the worst cases of (1) and (2) this is an > instance of reshaping is for free [3]. > > Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and > gathered per node, which is sufficient in these cases to find the > worst case end-to-end delay. If the only information available to a > path computation application is the per-hop latency, then the computed > end-to-end latency bound will be the sum of the per-hop bounds, which > may be much more than the end-to-end latency that would be computed by > a path computation application that would be aware of the presence of > per-flow scheduling or of urgency based schedulers. Therefore, it > seems that these drafts should be adapted to allow for an accurate > computation of the end-to-end latency. > > [1] draft-finn-bounded-latency > [2] draft-geng-detnet-conf-yang-00 > [3] slides-100-detnet-applicability-of-network-calculus-to-detnet-02 > [4] > http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2015/new-tsn-specht-ubs-queues-0521-v0.pdf > > Best, JY --------------DFB37C42C73E06BC5460B392 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

typo correction, sorry -- JY

Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and gathered per node, which is NOT sufficient in these cases to find the worst case end-to-end delay.

On 08.01.2018 12:00, Le Boudec Jean-Yves wrote:
There are cases in detnet where the end-to-end latency is less than the sum of the latencies at every hop:

- If the detnet nodes uses per-flow scheduling, the worst case end-to-end queuing delay is less than the sum of the worst case queuing delays at every hop because all worst cases cannot happen at the same time (pay burst only once [3]).

- A similar case arises if the detnet nodes use the Urgency Based Scheduler defined by IEEE 802.1 TSN for asynchronous traffic shaping [4]. Here, a packet may be delayed (1) at a switch output port due to output port queuing and class-based scheduling and (2) at the next downstream node due to the urgency based scheduler, which reshapes individual flows in order to avoid cascades of burstiness increase. The worst case of the sum of the delays at (1) and (2) is strictly less than the sum of the worst cases of (1) and (2) this is an instance of reshaping is for free [3].

Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and gathered per node, which is sufficient in these cases to find the worst case end-to-end delay. If the only information available to a path computation application is the per-hop latency, then the computed end-to-end latency bound will be the sum of the per-hop bounds, which may be much more than the end-to-end latency that would be computed by a path computation application that would be aware of the presence of per-flow scheduling or of urgency based schedulers. Therefore, it seems that these drafts should be adapted to allow for an accurate computation of the end-to-end latency.

[1] draft-finn-bounded-latency
[2] draft-geng-detnet-conf-yang-00
[3] slides-100-detnet-applicability-of-network-calculus-to-detnet-02
[4] http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2015/new-tsn-specht-ubs-queues-0521-v0.pdf

Best, JY

--------------DFB37C42C73E06BC5460B392-- From nobody Mon Jan 8 04:23:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B6F6124BAC for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 04:23:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.099 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, GB_SUMOF=5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tdN3w_FarUC1 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 04:23:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy7-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy7-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [70.40.196.235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54D3E1204DA for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 04:23:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from CMOut01 (unknown [10.0.90.82]) by gproxy7.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07FA721639E for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 05:21:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by CMOut01 with id voMN1w00r2SSUrH01oMRus; Mon, 08 Jan 2018 05:21:26 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=CqXPSjwD c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=RgaUWeydRksA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=dHJOhkScAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=DcNdS-Zd36EJXsN8APYA:9 a=xBiEULG57NANq9OK:21 a=2Us9MybnKCosH_UA:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=EOBy82HiEACYpMufgdUA:9 a=0nyMtEddV3paCdw_:21 a=DUlv33Rie48S4ypF:21 a=uyDZOV2C7X5QgsIi:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=0Jc9p3VZYLcdQ-t9l-12:22 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Subject:References:In-Reply-To: Message-ID:Date:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=MNGK6ouyipajnW3scMt6QIAt2uepASw/EZMPH1FslXw=; b=ulNx/HiANHJJoaePcVpEszDQC1 oq+hJ1nSWcOAbQLXPcFXww3u4owTTD57jg5gzH8OVdvyevVrNGqH1aIOcWbrsgdXcxNIQVToLwTNH npGu6eUfhbexN9wf4VaQnlhjr; Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:55136 helo=[11.4.0.163]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eYWQc-000jFK-GG; Mon, 08 Jan 2018 05:21:22 -0700 From: Lou Berger To: "Le Boudec Jean-Yves" , Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 07:21:21 -0500 Message-ID: <160d5b7cde8.27d3.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <85a60b00-70ee-308d-22c7-dbd9bf84d618@epfl.ch> References: <85a60b00-70ee-308d-22c7-dbd9bf84d618@epfl.ch> User-Agent: AquaMail/1.12.0-651 (build: 101200001) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------160d5b7cf4316d627d3fbb6c3" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1eYWQc-000jFK-GG X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([11.4.0.163]) [100.15.86.101]:55136 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] End-to-end latency versus per-hop latency bounds X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 12:23:45 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------160d5b7cf4316d627d3fbb6c3 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit JY, Thank you for the input. Do you have any specific changes or new text you can propose? Lou On January 8, 2018 7:05:49 AM Le Boudec Jean-Yves wrote: > typo correction, sorry -- JY > > Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and > gathered per node, which is NOT sufficient in these cases to find the > worst case end-to-end delay. > > On 08.01.2018 12:00, Le Boudec Jean-Yves wrote: >> There are cases in detnet where the end-to-end latency is less than >> the sum of the latencies at every hop: >> >> - If the detnet nodes uses per-flow scheduling, the worst case >> end-to-end queuing delay is less than the sum of the worst case >> queuing delays at every hop because all worst cases cannot happen at >> the same time (“pay burst only once” [3]). >> >> - A similar case arises if the detnet nodes use the Urgency Based >> Scheduler defined by IEEE 802.1 TSN for asynchronous traffic shaping >> [4]. Here, a packet may be delayed (1) at a switch output port due to >> output port queuing and class-based scheduling and (2) at the next >> downstream node due to the urgency based scheduler, which reshapes >> individual flows in order to avoid cascades of burstiness increase. >> The worst case of the sum of the delays at (1) and (2) is strictly >> less than the sum of the worst cases of (1) and (2) – this is an >> instance of “reshaping is for free” [3]. >> >> Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and >> gathered per node, which is sufficient in these cases to find the >> worst case end-to-end delay. If the only information available to a >> path computation application is the per-hop latency, then the computed >> end-to-end latency bound will be the sum of the per-hop bounds, which >> may be much more than the end-to-end latency that would be computed by >> a path computation application that would be aware of the presence of >> per-flow scheduling or of urgency based schedulers. Therefore, it >> seems that these drafts should be adapted to allow for an accurate >> computation of the end-to-end latency. >> >> [1] draft-finn-bounded-latency >> [2] draft-geng-detnet-conf-yang-00 >> [3] slides-100-detnet-applicability-of-network-calculus-to-detnet-02 >> [4] >> http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2015/new-tsn-specht-ubs-queues-0521-v0.pdf >> >> Best, JY > > > > > ---------- > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > ------------160d5b7cf4316d627d3fbb6c3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

JY,

Thank you for the input. Do you have any specific changes or new text you can propose?

Lou

On January 8, 2018 7:05:49 AM Le Boudec Jean-Yves <jean-yves.leboudec@epfl.ch> wrote:

typo correction, sorry -- JY

Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and gathered per node, which is NOT sufficient in these cases to find the worst case end-to-end delay.

On 08.01.2018 12:00, Le Boudec Jean-Yves wrote:
There are cases in detnet where the end-to-end latency is less than the sum of the latencies at every hop:

- If the detnet nodes uses per-flow scheduling, the worst case end-to-end queuing delay is less than the sum of the worst case queuing delays at every hop because all worst cases cannot happen at the same time (“pay burst only once” [3]).

- A similar case arises if the detnet nodes use the Urgency Based Scheduler defined by IEEE 802.1 TSN for asynchronous traffic shaping [4]. Here, a packet may be delayed (1) at a switch output port due to output port queuing and class-based scheduling and (2) at the next downstream node due to the urgency based scheduler, which reshapes individual flows in order to avoid cascades of burstiness increase. The worst case of the sum of the delays at (1) and (2) is strictly less than the sum of the worst cases of (1) and (2) – this is an instance of “reshaping is for free” [3].

Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and gathered per node, which is sufficient in these cases to find the worst case end-to-end delay. If the only information available to a path computation application is the per-hop latency, then the computed end-to-end latency bound will be the sum of the per-hop bounds, which may be much more than the end-to-end latency that would be computed by a path computation application that would be aware of the presence of per-flow scheduling or of urgency based schedulers. Therefore, it seems that these drafts should be adapted to allow for an accurate computation of the end-to-end latency.

[1] draft-finn-bounded-latency
[2] draft-geng-detnet-conf-yang-00
[3] slides-100-detnet-applicability-of-network-calculus-to-detnet-02
[4] http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2015/new-tsn-specht-ubs-queues-0521-v0.pdf

Best, JY

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

------------160d5b7cf4316d627d3fbb6c3-- From nobody Mon Jan 8 08:14:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09FA0129966 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 08:14:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_SUMOF=5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id daminH9MaYhD for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 08:14:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp4.epfl.ch (smtp4.epfl.ch [IPv6:2001:620:618:1e0:1:80b2:e059:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CCEC126579 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 08:14:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 54716 invoked by uid 107); 8 Jan 2018 16:14:42 -0000 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV Received: from icsil1noteb199.epfl.ch (HELO [128.178.151.248]) (128.178.151.248) (TLS, ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (X25519 curve) cipher) (authenticated) by mail.epfl.ch (AngelmatoPhylax SMTP proxy) with ESMTPSA; Mon, 08 Jan 2018 17:14:42 +0100 X-EPFL-Auth: kIUOKXx6OdOGE0G+UVChn/opo9AjGYoSGVOPFaIgcAEO7C4kZCY= To: Lou Berger , detnet@ietf.org References: <85a60b00-70ee-308d-22c7-dbd9bf84d618@epfl.ch> <160d5b7cde8.27d3.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> From: Le Boudec Jean-Yves Message-ID: <91672df7-f953-c510-9f52-e7ec1d645d45@epfl.ch> Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 17:14:40 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <160d5b7cde8.27d3.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------811803D7A8DCD7B9235BA47B" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] End-to-end latency versus per-hop latency bounds X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 16:14:47 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------811803D7A8DCD7B9235BA47B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lou, it is probably more than just a few text edits. We would need a) to explain the method by which end-to-end latency bounds are derived when there are elements that do per-flow scheduling or that contain shapers such as the urgency based shaper. This could be in the bounded latency draft or in the architecture. b) to have all elements required by a) formally defined and made available in the yang configuration files (hence in draft-geng-detnet-conf-yang). This would contain for example: the rate and latency parameters of a per-flow scheduler; the parameters of the shaping algorithm used by an urgency based shaper. I'll be happy to help with that ! JY On 08.01.2018 13:21, Lou Berger wrote: > > JY, > > Thank you for the input. Do you have any specific changes or new text > you can propose? > > Lou > > On January 8, 2018 7:05:49 AM Le Boudec Jean-Yves > wrote: > >> typo correction, sorry -- JY >> >> Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and >> gathered per node, which is NOT sufficient in these cases to find the >> worst case end-to-end delay. >> >> On 08.01.2018 12:00, Le Boudec Jean-Yves wrote: >>> There are cases in detnet where the end-to-end latency is less than >>> the sum of the latencies at every hop: >>> >>> - If the detnet nodes uses per-flow scheduling, the worst case >>> end-to-end queuing delay is less than the sum of the worst case >>> queuing delays at every hop because all worst cases cannot happen at >>> the same time (“pay burst only once” [3]). >>> >>> - A similar case arises if the detnet nodes use the Urgency Based >>> Scheduler defined by IEEE 802.1 TSN for asynchronous traffic shaping >>> [4]. Here, a packet may be delayed (1) at a switch output port due >>> to output port queuing and class-based scheduling and (2) at the >>> next downstream node due to the urgency based scheduler, which >>> reshapes individual flows in order to avoid cascades of burstiness >>> increase. The worst case of the sum of the delays at (1) and (2) is >>> strictly less than the sum of the worst cases of (1) and (2) – this >>> is an instance of “reshaping is for free” [3]. >>> >>> Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and >>> gathered per node, which is sufficient in these cases to find the >>> worst case end-to-end delay. If the only information available to a >>> path computation application is the per-hop latency, then the >>> computed end-to-end latency bound will be the sum of the per-hop >>> bounds, which may be much more than the end-to-end latency that >>> would be computed by a path computation application that would be >>> aware of the presence of per-flow scheduling or of urgency based >>> schedulers. Therefore, it seems that these drafts should be adapted >>> to allow for an accurate computation of the end-to-end latency. >>> >>> [1] draft-finn-bounded-latency >>> [2] draft-geng-detnet-conf-yang-00 >>> [3] slides-100-detnet-applicability-of-network-calculus-to-detnet-02 >>> [4] >>> http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2015/new-tsn-specht-ubs-queues-0521-v0.pdf >>> >>> Best, JY >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet --------------811803D7A8DCD7B9235BA47B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Lou,

it is probably more than just a few text edits. We would need

a) to explain the method by which end-to-end latency bounds are derived when there are elements that do per-flow scheduling or that contain shapers such as the urgency based shaper. This could be in the bounded latency draft or in the architecture.

b) to have all elements required by a) formally defined and made available in the yang configuration files (hence in draft-geng-detnet-conf-yang). This would contain for example: the rate and latency parameters of a per-flow scheduler; the parameters of the shaping algorithm used by an urgency based shaper.

I'll be happy to help with that !

JY


On 08.01.2018 13:21, Lou Berger wrote:

JY,

Thank you for the input. Do you have any specific changes or new text you can propose?

Lou

On January 8, 2018 7:05:49 AM Le Boudec Jean-Yves <jean-yves.leboudec@epfl.ch> wrote:

typo correction, sorry -- JY

Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and gathered per node, which is NOT sufficient in these cases to find the worst case end-to-end delay.

On 08.01.2018 12:00, Le Boudec Jean-Yves wrote:
There are cases in detnet where the end-to-end latency is less than the sum of the latencies at every hop:

- If the detnet nodes uses per-flow scheduling, the worst case end-to-end queuing delay is less than the sum of the worst case queuing delays at every hop because all worst cases cannot happen at the same time (“pay burst only once” [3]).

- A similar case arises if the detnet nodes use the Urgency Based Scheduler defined by IEEE 802.1 TSN for asynchronous traffic shaping [4]. Here, a packet may be delayed (1) at a switch output port due to output port queuing and class-based scheduling and (2) at the next downstream node due to the urgency based scheduler, which reshapes individual flows in order to avoid cascades of burstiness increase. The worst case of the sum of the delays at (1) and (2) is strictly less than the sum of the worst cases of (1) and (2) – this is an instance of “reshaping is for free” [3].

Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and gathered per node, which is sufficient in these cases to find the worst case end-to-end delay. If the only information available to a path computation application is the per-hop latency, then the computed end-to-end latency bound will be the sum of the per-hop bounds, which may be much more than the end-to-end latency that would be computed by a path computation application that would be aware of the presence of per-flow scheduling or of urgency based schedulers. Therefore, it seems that these drafts should be adapted to allow for an accurate computation of the end-to-end latency.

[1] draft-finn-bounded-latency
[2] draft-geng-detnet-conf-yang-00
[3] slides-100-detnet-applicability-of-network-calculus-to-detnet-02
[4] http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2015/new-tsn-specht-ubs-queues-0521-v0.pdf

Best, JY

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet



_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

--------------811803D7A8DCD7B9235BA47B-- From nobody Mon Jan 8 13:28:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E45612D7F9 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 13:28:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.098 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, GB_SUMOF=5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bRu2LgZxeCjM for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 13:28:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy5-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy5-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [67.222.38.55]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E10231243F6 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 13:28:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw4 (unknown [10.0.90.85]) by gproxy5.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8841A14055B for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 14:28:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmgw4 with id vxUa1w00j2SSUrH01xUdKg; Mon, 08 Jan 2018 14:28:38 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=G85sK5s5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10 a=RgaUWeydRksA:10 a=dHJOhkScAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=CB6BwnNtUl2o3LsG9FMA:9 a=472mcPht9httnyf0:21 a=kE-TTtnlblsp9Ec0:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=0Jc9p3VZYLcdQ-t9l-12:22 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=LyXSLqEn+qXJF7x/HGQTGHYcVn1ONjNQzYU7kP4OmGQ=; b=LUMzVlmZCC+FyFkPdIjct/3mX5 jlua86TPdsJkwUiaUxwDjBEDQk48Z4WYnUxjQ/5l4nTLnZVy6yHXYSJ+U+BV1Nd3si3jzGE5694Uh CTZllnobtAps4D1mLeHQtpCue; Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:58186 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eYeyA-003XqD-K4; Mon, 08 Jan 2018 14:28:34 -0700 To: Le Boudec Jean-Yves , detnet@ietf.org References: <85a60b00-70ee-308d-22c7-dbd9bf84d618@epfl.ch> <160d5b7cde8.27d3.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> <91672df7-f953-c510-9f52-e7ec1d645d45@epfl.ch> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <49161db5-369c-2444-9c9a-dd76cdc66ca4@labn.net> Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 16:28:33 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <91672df7-f953-c510-9f52-e7ec1d645d45@epfl.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1eYeyA-003XqD-K4 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.86.101]:58186 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 9 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] End-to-end latency versus per-hop latency bounds X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 21:28:40 -0000 On 1/8/2018 11:14 AM, Le Boudec Jean-Yves wrote: > > Lou, > > it is probably more than just a few text edits. We would need > > a) to explain the method by which end-to-end latency bounds are > derived when there are elements that do per-flow scheduling or that > contain shapers such as the urgency based shaper. This could be in the > bounded latency draft or in the architecture. > > b) to have all elements required by a) formally defined and made > available in the yang configuration files (hence in > draft-geng-detnet-conf-yang). This would contain for example: the rate > and latency parameters of a per-flow scheduler; the parameters of the > shaping algorithm used by an urgency based shaper. > > I'll be happy to help with that ! > Great!  Please work with the authors directly or feel free to submit a draft (or even just proposed text in  e-mail) on the topic! Lou > > JY > > > On 08.01.2018 13:21, Lou Berger wrote: >> >> JY, >> >> Thank you for the input. Do you have any specific changes or new text >> you can propose? >> >> Lou >> >> On January 8, 2018 7:05:49 AM Le Boudec Jean-Yves >> wrote: >> >>> typo correction, sorry -- JY >>> >>> Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and >>> gathered per node, which is NOT sufficient in these cases to find >>> the worst case end-to-end delay. >>> >>> On 08.01.2018 12:00, Le Boudec Jean-Yves wrote: >>>> There are cases in detnet where the end-to-end latency is less than >>>> the sum of the latencies at every hop: >>>> >>>> - If the detnet nodes uses per-flow scheduling, the worst case >>>> end-to-end queuing delay is less than the sum of the worst case >>>> queuing delays at every hop because all worst cases cannot happen >>>> at the same time (“pay burst only once” [3]). >>>> >>>> - A similar case arises if the detnet nodes use the Urgency Based >>>> Scheduler defined by IEEE 802.1 TSN for asynchronous traffic >>>> shaping [4]. Here, a packet may be delayed (1) at a switch output >>>> port due to output port queuing and class-based scheduling and (2) >>>> at the next downstream node due to the urgency based scheduler, >>>> which reshapes individual flows in order to avoid cascades of >>>> burstiness increase. The worst case of the sum of the delays at (1) >>>> and (2) is strictly less than the sum of the worst cases of (1) and >>>> (2) – this is an instance of “reshaping is for free” [3]. >>>> >>>> Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and >>>> gathered per node, which is sufficient in these cases to find the >>>> worst case end-to-end delay. If the only information available to a >>>> path computation application is the per-hop latency, then the >>>> computed end-to-end latency bound will be the sum of the per-hop >>>> bounds, which may be much more than the end-to-end latency that >>>> would be computed by a path computation application that would be >>>> aware of the presence of per-flow scheduling or of urgency based >>>> schedulers. Therefore, it seems that these drafts should be adapted >>>> to allow for an accurate computation of the end-to-end latency. >>>> >>>> [1] draft-finn-bounded-latency >>>> [2] draft-geng-detnet-conf-yang-00 >>>> [3] slides-100-detnet-applicability-of-network-calculus-to-detnet-02 >>>> [4] >>>> http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2015/new-tsn-specht-ubs-queues-0521-v0.pdf >>>> >>>> Best, JY >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > From nobody Tue Jan 9 09:02:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D285112D865; Tue, 9 Jan 2018 09:02:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: lberger@labn.net, detnet@ietf.org, db3546@att.com, detnet-chairs@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.68.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <151551735181.1721.13377682605220968224.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2018 09:02:31 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] detnet - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 101 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2018 17:02:32 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Lou Berger, a Chair of the detnet working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Deterministic Networking Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Lou Berger Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: pce teas ccamp netmod mpls Second Priority: rtgwg nvo3 tsvwg pals bess People who must be present: Lou Berger Deborah Brungard Jouni Korhonen Patricia Thaler Janos Farkas Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue Jan 9 18:28:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 881A0124F57 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2018 18:28:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.78 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.78 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_SUMOF=5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FbC0KQsPaClQ for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2018 18:28:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A2C9124B17 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2018 18:28:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 2D568346D68C9 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 02:28:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMA405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.46) by lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.48) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.361.1; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 02:28:03 +0000 Received: from DGGEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.171]) by DGGEMA405-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.46]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 10:27:58 +0800 From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" To: Le Boudec Jean-Yves , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] End-to-end latency versus per-hop latency bounds Thread-Index: AQHTiG/tL0CuZwuxJUqr5E7fzYvdCqNpWuGAgAMBWZA= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 02:27:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: <85a60b00-70ee-308d-22c7-dbd9bf84d618@epfl.ch> In-Reply-To: <85a60b00-70ee-308d-22c7-dbd9bf84d618@epfl.ch> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.169.123] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C089637FBDGGEMA501MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] End-to-end latency versus per-hop latency bounds X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 02:28:08 -0000 --_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C089637FBDGGEMA501MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi JY, I have read more material about Networking Calculus, and I think it is very= useful to describe the network unit behavior accurately and make the worst= case end-to-end latency smaller than the sum of worst case latency of ever= y hop. It will be very charming if we can prove the end-to-end latency will be sho= rter significantly. And as the author of DetNet YANG module, I am also very= interested in specifying 'the rate and latency parameters of a per-flow sc= heduler; the parameters of the shaping algorithm' based on the method offer= ed by Networking Calculus, as you have mentioned in the email (In my unders= tanding, most of the parameters of different queuing management algorithm h= ave been defined in IEEE, maybe we can make use of them and redefine them i= n a rigorous mathematical model ). They are all very interesting. If you have further plans about these topics= , please let me in. Best Regards, Xuesong From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Le Boudec Jean-Y= ves Sent: Monday, January 08, 2018 8:05 PM To: detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] End-to-end latency versus per-hop latency bounds typo correction, sorry -- JY Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and gathered= per node, which is NOT sufficient in these cases to find the worst case en= d-to-end delay. On 08.01.2018 12:00, Le Boudec Jean-Yves wrote: There are cases in detnet where the end-to-end latency is less than the sum= of the latencies at every hop: - If the detnet nodes uses per-flow scheduling, the worst case end-to-end q= ueuing delay is less than the sum of the worst case queuing delays at every= hop because all worst cases cannot happen at the same time ("pay burst onl= y once" [3]). - A similar case arises if the detnet nodes use the Urgency Based Scheduler= defined by IEEE 802.1 TSN for asynchronous traffic shaping [4]. Here, a pa= cket may be delayed (1) at a switch output port due to output port queuing = and class-based scheduling and (2) at the next downstream node due to the u= rgency based scheduler, which reshapes individual flows in order to avoid c= ascades of burstiness increase. The worst case of the sum of the delays at = (1) and (2) is strictly less than the sum of the worst cases of (1) and (2)= - this is an instance of "reshaping is for free" [3]. Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and gathered= per node, which is sufficient in these cases to find the worst case end-to= -end delay. If the only information available to a path computation applica= tion is the per-hop latency, then the computed end-to-end latency bound wil= l be the sum of the per-hop bounds, which may be much more than the end-to-= end latency that would be computed by a path computation application that w= ould be aware of the presence of per-flow scheduling or of urgency based sc= hedulers. Therefore, it seems that these drafts should be adapted to allow = for an accurate computation of the end-to-end latency. [1] draft-finn-bounded-latency [2] draft-geng-detnet-conf-yang-00 [3] slides-100-detnet-applicability-of-network-calculus-to-detnet-02 [4] http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2015/new-tsn-specht-ubs-queue= s-0521-v0.pdf Best, JY --_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C089637FBDGGEMA501MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi JY,

 

I have read more material about Networkin= g Calculus, and I think it is very useful to describe the network unit behavior accurately and make the worst case end-to-end latency smalle= r than the sum of worst case latency of every hop.

It will be very charming if we can prove = the end-to-end latency will be shorter significantly. And as the author of DetNet YANG module, I am also very interested in specifying = ‘the rate and latency parameters of a per-flow scheduler; the paramet= ers of the shaping algorithm’ based on the method offered by Networki= ng Calculus, as you have mentioned in the email (In my understanding, most of the parameters of different queuing manageme= nt algorithm have been defined in IEEE, maybe we can make use of them and r= edefine them in a rigorous mathematical model ).

They are all very interesting. If you hav= e further plans about these topics, please let me in.

 

Best Regards,

 

Xuesong

 = ;

From:= detnet [mailto:detn= et-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Le Boudec Jean-Yves
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2018 8:05 PM
To: detnet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] End-to-end latency versus per-hop latency boun= ds

 

typo correction, sorry -- JY

Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays ar= e expressed and gathered per node, which is NOT sufficient in these cases t= o find the worst case end-to-end delay.

On 08.01.2018 12:00, Le Boudec = Jean-Yves wrote:

There are cases in detnet where= the end-to-end latency is less than the sum of the latencies at every hop:

- If the detnet nodes uses per-flow scheduling, the worst case end-to-end q= ueuing delay is less than the sum of the worst case queuing delays at every= hop because all worst cases cannot happen at the same time (“pay bur= st only once” [3]).

- A similar case arises if the detnet nodes use the Urgency Based Scheduler= defined by IEEE 802.1 TSN for asynchronous traffic shaping [4]. Here, a pa= cket may be delayed (1) at a switch output port due to output port queuing = and class-based scheduling and (2) at the next downstream node due to the urgency based scheduler, which resh= apes individual flows in order to avoid cascades of burstiness increase. Th= e worst case of the sum of the delays at (1) and (2) is strictly less than = the sum of the worst cases of (1) and (2) – this is an instance of “reshaping is for free”= [3].

Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and gathered= per node, which is sufficient in these cases to find the worst case end-to= -end delay. If the only information available to a path computation applica= tion is the per-hop latency, then the computed end-to-end latency bound will be the sum of the per-hop bound= s, which may be much more than the end-to-end latency that would be compute= d by a path computation application that would be aware of the presence of = per-flow scheduling or of urgency based schedulers. Therefore, it seems that these drafts should be adapted = to allow for an accurate computation of the end-to-end latency.

[1] draft-finn-bounded-latency
[2] draft-geng-detnet-conf-yang-00
[3] slides-100-detnet-applicability-of-network-calculus-to-detnet-02
[4] http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2015/new-tsn-specht-ubs-queues-05= 21-v0.pdf

Best, JY

 

--_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C089637FBDGGEMA501MBSchi_-- From nobody Wed Jan 10 04:44:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C1501200B9; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 04:44:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.68.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <151558827316.3898.5584081901035711170@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 04:44:33 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-00.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 12:44:33 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking WG of the IETF. Title : DetNet Flow Information Model Authors : János Farkas Balázs Varga Rodney Cummings Jiang Yuanlong Zha Yiyong Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-00.txt Pages : 22 Date : 2018-01-08 Abstract: This document describes flow and service information model for Deterministic Networking (DetNet). The DetNet service is provided either for a Layer 3 or a Layer 2 flow. This document provides DetNet flow and service information model both for Layer 3 and Layer 2 flows in an integrated fashion. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Jan 10 06:53:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB76912700F for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 06:53:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l3aF-hObqoJI for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 06:53:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [67.222.33.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED295126B6E for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 06:52:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw4 (unknown [10.0.90.85]) by gproxy8.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B2461AD76C for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 07:36:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmgw4 with id webz1w0152SSUrH01ec2f3; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 07:36:03 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=G85sK5s5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=-80DEDMye-IA:10 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10 a=RgaUWeydRksA:10 a=NojvYFcnAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=q5kYD8aLZQtzYWw8JLUA:9 a=VLF2hv_vZP7lr_JK:21 a=xQl8SaNpJZzGKGnN:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=NU7HZUQD-k8A:10 a=T8E0iRN_syYA:10 a=9uUzcS5Nrb8A:10 a=gUXmQ8eWAGYA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:References:To:From:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=8lpA6UcQkdac+pZRH59I5d/Zq64XKO+CoogShLKE+sg=; b=kHEWHjuo/fzhckDbZ2HWuF5nCw r3khLij1FK7CeBZy4P3CGK3bcwifxE/Zb4VarNWZ/5ADph05MYAGeVC298u8ih2gC0uT/wGofDe+d MPaJHgyz81EbuFQ5pUurXcxng; Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:36656 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eZHTz-0026iX-Dy for detnet@ietf.org; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 07:35:59 -0700 From: Lou Berger To: detnet@ietf.org References: <765b0a8a-075f-7bd6-54df-cecf5c911665@labn.net> <4723b843-c88f-4a98-45ba-028f9771effe@labn.net> Message-ID: <862cd7f1-2967-e5dd-b983-978ede8b12e1@labn.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 09:35:55 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4723b843-c88f-4a98-45ba-028f9771effe@labn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1eZHTz-0026iX-Dy X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.86.101]:36656 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 2 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Virtual interim on DetNet Data Plane - January 10, 1600-1800GMT. X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 14:53:02 -0000 Just a reminder that this interim will be starting in ~2.5 hours.  Webex: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=ma8f5e752b3d072bbb2bcfa12ef65d4d5  Etherpad: http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01  DataTracker/meeting material: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2018-detnet-01/session/detnet Lou On 1/4/2018 12:40 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > FYI: Webex info and ics > > JOIN WEBEX MEETING > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m26d7c8181b1442dce36d83c55a861b6b > Meeting number (access code): 640 969 470 > Meeting password: dp-sol > > JOIN BY PHONE > 1-877-668-4493 Call-in toll free number (US/Canada) > 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) > > Toll-free dialing restrictions: > https://www.webex.com/pdf/tollfree_restrictions.pdf > > Can't join the meeting? Contact support here: > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/mc > > NOTICE: This session will be recorded > > > On 01/03/2018 04:44 PM, Lou Berger wrote: >> >> All, >> >> We are planning to hold our first virtual interim to discuss the >> DetNet Data Plane document, >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol . The intent is to >> work through open issues on the draft, starting with where we left off >> at IETF 100, see [1] and [2]. >> >> The meeting will be held January 10 at 1600GMT. We aiming for a 90 >> minute meeting, but are scheduling to allow 30 minutes of extra >> discussion time if needed. Webex details will be announced once available. >> >> The agenda is less formal than our normal meetings and is: >> >> - Administrivia, welcoming new co-chair (Chairs, 5 minutes) >> - Plan for addressing open issues on the draft, including future >> interims (Chairs, 5 minutes) >> - Review of IETF100 conclusions, and related planned document updates >> (TBD) >> Reference: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-100-detnet/ >> - Open issues discussion (Lead TBD) >> >> [1] >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-detnet-3-detnet-data-plane-encapsulation-resolving-open-issues/ >> >> [2] >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-detnet-3a-detnet-data-plane-encapsulation-resolving-open-issues-pref/ >> >> Thank you, >> >> DetNet WG Chairs >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Wed Jan 10 08:02:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0F9712D893 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 08:02:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uu8iiZ6em_sG for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 08:02:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot0-x234.google.com (mail-ot0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1507212D94D for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 08:02:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot0-x234.google.com with SMTP id g59so14671609otg.11 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 08:02:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=17cELmrqms6qdlj3fkDqRPcRYjzPd+fShRy7G/VztOY=; b=Ca+sNLf/3o5uMg4uH2b1Q2asluKsHbKHM1Jp9pG/jaunH/q6Hpz8fBIKipMSdUayvO cwfK013KRII06lysRP8RU7f2CPoZRLnuKBD5B14Z7CvkSu9Z2TKiwgFJhqkjJpue9ru7 cGRA+JGR98TS4AB2NrmOtoYKf8fWSQpjRdYu8rsmtjGV27H28ctlrCAj7+bvtUMSCHx6 5LqqHVgAgh1MUo71TgaX0cEcYiwJOTrNYFeJzcMoWTyJpWwroABw8v5dzPrnul3wOOTA pizm9vnfoagN7TDa3kipLgTLGyRK7r4AVjO0yNqNUxnRgvRDSQPiJmDk2gdtnTOMyO4P EWxA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=17cELmrqms6qdlj3fkDqRPcRYjzPd+fShRy7G/VztOY=; b=od/Qn/Lm27eZNSGsMTZR6tGgrkuxGT/6JrkQIGtickpw1bCEwrxWWuPfkMmBjivitg mriaxPOr0fvrzEFWuyo09E9AkoglVrVhzmH87yzfZMDWdd5HFpypW9TaWrpnj6p96EAT 1U8W6Skhrf5cdO/AlwoZH8xgTMSXs2hxHU7GkLpX+M+bcNdvIIDwVFPXMDt6FSseTmMt xkMOWVmKY6qCqVZhBOO0wH2x5VZ7pkPMDMGNOuu3jRiiN/pa9k7kbvr3Wl02G1Hj4Rmh rYR2ssNLqxIVVsJPPmi54cJuQHzQNcvoK611h+62x9MDyVcqi4+HzQZYmpEombCUsXJk m30A== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytcx49W7qSITyj9njErd0/NKqO1eGEapWJeDcleR1VtzRtNv2CVt jJ5kf2o4og+L2DrjHmbn0oAEjdhASDmKdzCjRsKj5A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBovA3z5TGMm3UBBArxy2EKzrd3IAaLyV80AKlyFWEdb57hnHO04ZfC9NTOcn16ksWs67ASnyK6ywDtRYDEzMiak= X-Received: by 10.157.12.104 with SMTP id 95mr2692544otr.26.1515600139221; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 08:02:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.17.189 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 08:01:58 -0800 (PST) From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 11:01:58 -0500 Message-ID: To: detnet WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c03262aeb81e305626e2774" Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Detnet virtual interim is starting X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 16:02:38 -0000 --94eb2c03262aeb81e305626e2774 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Materials and slides are at http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 Cheers, Andy --94eb2c03262aeb81e305626e2774 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Andy

--94eb2c03262aeb81e305626e2774-- From nobody Wed Jan 10 10:02:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C91F812DA50 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 10:02:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CjCAvAgMeUuE for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 10:02:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy10-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy10-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.20.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F109C127871 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 10:02:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from CMOut01 (unknown [10.0.90.82]) by gproxy10.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABE6D140990 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 11:01:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by CMOut01 with id wi1B1w01E2SSUrH01i1EET; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 11:01:15 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=CqXPSjwD c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10 a=RgaUWeydRksA:10 a=NojvYFcnAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=HMAZL3idNiVn2DR57oYA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=L4dRxlfgLVMA:10 a=gUXmQ8eWAGYA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID:Content-Description: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID: In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=5PeSDnAulfCH//FRTuS2MSkFQdWOOyrGdM36l/I0Nvc=; b=1yR+gEc6nvNy3h17GVU8ETFA30 Lb79GxhO4KhRv3BiPIB0fEqXq/7zdsdlC5k5biApOExnMjl1a5ILwXFV8MhZIQT6PSlCPVF7hCLu/ cLE3b/fJq/Lpv5mwCWl3rBLdg; Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:45032 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eZKgZ-003Aih-CR for detnet@ietf.org; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 11:01:11 -0700 To: DetNet WG From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <4e46ad43-d94a-f60b-dc0e-6a776e035cb7@labn.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 13:01:07 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1eZKgZ-003Aih-CR X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.86.101]:45032 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 18:02:19 -0000 is available for download at: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301 raw notes are available at http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording. Lou (and co-chairs) From nobody Fri Jan 12 15:02:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF78E124BE8 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2018 15:02:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I5GWVNBXs_He for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2018 15:02:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy2-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy2-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.18.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A06BF127342 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2018 15:02:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw4 (unknown [10.0.90.85]) by gproxy2.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 139941E08D1 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2018 16:02:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmgw4 with id xb2A1w00E2SSUrH01b2DeY; Fri, 12 Jan 2018 16:02:13 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=G85sK5s5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10 a=RgaUWeydRksA:10 a=-4IWW30Ez6o7esQt_ycA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:Subject:From:Cc:To:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID: In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=7KLKoVoBfKqFZMEl/e1aHO0aIWZb+ZR241kahIpTZ9I=; b=A19mgRiQsJ8X18kitIq6LmPgRD +H9ILXeaPwv4/qClsnZjE7/n/NCHbEq/lU30EszSYcjbm60vB5oBfKl8wNi2rY+9xfyuiUvPU8Mi6 Czghe5QyjsECHHK6IS53hf61R; Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:32846 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1ea8Kv-001KZZ-Tm; Fri, 12 Jan 2018 16:02:09 -0700 To: DetNet WG Cc: DetNet Chairs From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <0c0537cf-dd3e-07cb-af41-595212b8c400@labn.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 18:02:07 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1ea8Kv-001KZZ-Tm X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.86.101]:32846 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Next Data Plane Virtual Interim X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 23:02:24 -0000 All,     We'd like to propose a 2nd virtual interim on January 31, 1400 GMT, with a focus being on an expected update to the solution draft. Being sensitive to time zones, we (the chairs) would like to hear from any would like contribute to this effort but cannot attend at this time.  We may decide to choose a different time based on feedback received over the next week. 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:VI1PR07MB3470; H:VI1PR07MB1005.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: ericsson.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: qqndzgV4VrOw8ZPB/jKHV3S1ApQrv9psKVNOyoUQmpp3jfGmVSAp3THI5Mz8S5SGi7D6i3MZiYn5Ddw4o9Hfmg== spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_VI1PR07MB1005BA9AE10D7F2004848C94ACEB0VI1PR07MB1005eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 08697413-4a5a-47b9-ce5b-08d55c18b008 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Jan 2018 13:05:44.2943 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB3470 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA02SfUhTURjGObt323U0OFuKL36krJRUNmtYmEllZkghCULWso+RNzV1yr0m mX+0EZIup2Wa8wsrLMMcRhpKGOIScmiJRlMULHMSKfahyMyh5d1d4H+/93mf9z3PORyKkDcJ /agsXQHN6LQ5CpGErDvTnaoMb03T7Fn/FRztWmogj6DElpY/gmSkkcSm0zlZhTQTeeiSJNPc 0yzOHzh9faDjMalHfSeNyIsCHAVDg7WEEUkoOX6LoH1uXsgXgwgM9m53QWITAdU10yK+UyuA rpVhki9mEVR0TxHcMhFOgOXSGRHH3jgIDKZlMcfbcRj8nakgeF0Ftyodmx7KzU5rFCeTOARs tiEhx1KcBqbxNZKzIBwIM5ZoTiawL0w6mgV8bAwtvSMEzz7wfXbDPYrwBXD16T26Aszzk0Ke A2Gs+Q7iIgO2i2GhyukxqeDVvUXEcxI8cXEHcKZRBPed457pcPjxYdHD2dC4WuYOB1gDfS/i efk5AeZyf54DoMP6wLNnWgi3B/hEckxDq6UE8bPFsDLO3EUR9VvuxnMemIx6Ub37KWRgq3OQ vK6CiZpqEc8R8PTRAsGzEswbVnKr/hCJ25APS7NsboZaraKZrMssm6dT6eiCl2jz0/R3uWJ6 UP+3OCvCFFJsk75uTNPIhdpCtijXioAiFN5SQ8qmJE3XFt2gmbyLzLUcmrUif4pU+EqPXonW yHGGtoDOpul8mvnfFVBefnqUon/WufrVUZF64NxZmWHJaGYsJ3x8S4YjZccZtvXL6oToVGjo jtQOmXKXsjPYcvB9u1qe9GZOvVaKi2N6JG1LI8aE88G/x1Y+fv4UtJjYW361ktrZYDsc4Cyx j75LzqyS7i6bagrTJs/t37gpE/THxv+M22eOOLbWsC61V4UEKkg2U7s3nGBY7T/sHMR2MAMA AA== Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 13:05:56 -0000 --_000_VI1PR07MB1005BA9AE10D7F2004848C94ACEB0VI1PR07MB1005eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft. This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips zero= . It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) Possible problem resolutions: #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0 | 16 bit Sequence Number | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ D-bit: set to "1" means DetNet specific Seq. Number used, Bit5-15: reserved. RFC4448 states that reserved bits "MUST be ignored upon receipt", so backwa= rd compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer se= q.num. formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385. #2: Making "0" as a valid Seq.Num. DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its own sequence number processing algorithm. So "0" can be a valid number and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with RFC438= 5. #3: Other ... ?!? Comments are welcome. Cheers Bala'zs -----Original Message----- From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger Sent: 2018. janu=E1r 10. 19:01 To: DetNet WG Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim is available for download at: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3De5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301 raw notes are available at http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording. Lou (and co-chairs) _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet --_000_VI1PR07MB1005BA9AE10D7F2004848C94ACEB0VI1PR07MB1005eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

Some thoughts to start discussion on open points = of the DP solution draft.

This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering.=

 

Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word:<= o:p>

- S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition = states that S/N skips zero.

It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448)

 

Possible problem resolutions:

#1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits= part of the CW:

      0    =             &nb= sp;  1          &nbs= p;        2     = ;            &n= bsp; 3

      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2= 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

     +-+-+-+-+-&= #43;-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= ;-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-&= #43;-+-+

     |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0&= nbsp; |   16 bit Sequence Number      |<= o:p>

     +-+-+-+-+-&= #43;-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= ;-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-&= #43;-+-+

D-bit: set to “1” means DetNet specif= ic Seq. Number used,

Bit5-15: reserved.

 

RFC4448 states that reserved bits “MUST be = ignored upon receipt”, so backward

compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would a= llow also to use longer seq.num.

formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline= with RFC4385.

 

#2: Making “0” as a valid Seq.Num.

DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special= within the DetNet

domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by D= etNet Service functions

(i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes an= d DetNet relay-nodes. No

other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefor= e DetNet can specify its

own sequence number processing algorithm. So R= 20;0” can be a valid number

and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. = This is inline with RFC4385.

 

#3: Other … ?!?

 

Comments are welcome.

 

Cheers

Bala'zs

 

-----Original Message-----
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger
Sent: 2018. janu=E1r 10. 19:01
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim

 

is available for download at:

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3De5116bc7db254c= 24a7bb3217bf202301

 

raw notes are available at

http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018= -detnet-01

 

Please feel free to update the etherpad based on = the recording.

 

Lou (and co-chairs)

 

_______________________________________________

detnet mailing list

detnet@ietf.org

https://www.i= etf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

--_000_VI1PR07MB1005BA9AE10D7F2004848C94ACEB0VI1PR07MB1005eurp_-- From nobody Mon Jan 15 06:14:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91BF512D7EA for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2018 06:14:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.987 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.987 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2sTQg8o2nI-k for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2018 06:14:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr0-x236.google.com (mail-wr0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B660912DB71 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2018 06:14:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr0-x236.google.com with SMTP id 16so11814502wry.12 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2018 06:14:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=qQW04OW6qUAmm7A3u5zM3BK6FObvns34A8RIeU0pTp4=; b=DusvwtP3bR4fYs2eh6Oxbnfeg5lUa5eVd80m+dX6UHwTrdMX/cNW5i/X2SysM8pcsQ 7vOpzG+xMipqYshPsTuTJWkw/CvatMQg1wrK5/gJ2aikXbEtjMxWKD9sWf5i2541bR01 P/7VSHHTFYufcYLyM+uc4HzRF5UARBVF+0hoJQD9Y45Wc4gxdxFJYpU4SGWssZjy1omW 6rM3pziQWRZof80MCcnONnCIObZ12hozH2nghNjAuacC56qvr2Uq1eKcGHELcgOG/eut MJxm8zxfYw1dDXn8nEpTUZTxCxEDwxeIDWQW4JsSF/v9urDpbfLCjIoCxz5E/LbjuRXO hdQA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=qQW04OW6qUAmm7A3u5zM3BK6FObvns34A8RIeU0pTp4=; b=eQ6l3uu6X6IcuK6Gz/iS0aKNHI6lJifGOYTbBX1cu9elzuqLUbOeeDJnFf+f33r+U+ etcnp6nygEFRT0LX7oNbQxNtPVROkc3FHW/B0rVRU0//17WL4EYiRC32ZSfbaXnDjz31 qWoxPKUv8G3iPTWSRUae8jsgve3TGb8yE3ZEM7q+Lalj4ggbBNADBKRPza2ekqVewxAx 1JN1ZvORXgg63VjzpaNpLEwKS9A+moXydn1CRi3kSb8I5dbOHgDcUJ4DfpEhRft4GH9i kszPz5Ca15ohu1umKrp2x/YdYrNbitlHbuna+0YG7Fs3/HWvLUtaYKU4lbTbAcOV5bpz MM8g== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mKShSZNIEt+R96xFACC9tA06NA6obEduJ6AKMSVaB53ePpuQobN NknEI0MfsKewXNiHJOq4ZuIsB0T9 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBosbZUgSlTpcKAGFCoEU9+mZctZ01vw2PR23nbd5fOb2LovtRA6gcZFPXHSFb995a2lYXodgpQ== X-Received: by 10.223.182.18 with SMTP id f18mr29036264wre.11.1516025661907; Mon, 15 Jan 2018 06:14:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.126] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 2sm24986772wrg.13.2018.01.15.06.14.20 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 15 Jan 2018 06:14:20 -0800 (PST) To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= , DetNet WG References: From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:14:19 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------ACF5C34F95C956DD86602B8D" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:14:26 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------ACF5C34F95C956DD86602B8D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 15/01/2018 13:05, Balzs Varga A wrote: > > Hi, > > Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft. > > This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. > > Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: > > - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips > zero. > > It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) > > Possible problem resolutions: > > #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: > > 0 1 2 3 > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0 | 16 bit Sequence Number | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > D-bit: set to 1 means DetNet specific Seq. Number used, > > Bit5-15: reserved. > > RFC4448 states that reserved bits MUST be ignored upon receipt, so > backward > > compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use > longer seq.num. > > formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385. > Why do we need any compatibility with RFC4448 in this regard? The only reason that I can see is if we think there are a lot of existing T-PEs out there that support RFC4448 and s/n processing. I am ready to be corrected, but I really don't think there is any significant deployment. I therefore think that it would be much better to define a new Detnet Ethernet encapsulation type with the exact properties we need. Now related to that, do we need to support any non-ethernet encapsulated Detnet payloads, i.e. do we have to support a native connectivity type other than Ethernet? If so we need to make sure that we leave the bits in place to length recovery. Also will we ever need to have this be self discovering (something that PWs were no designed to be)? If the answer is no to both of these, we could for example make the CW look as follows: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |0 0 0 0| Sequence Number | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Then we can let the control plane specify the s/n length at whatever make sense between 0 and 28 bits which should cover most applications. What we have lost here is fragmentation at the PW layer, and the ability to send non-Ethernet frames, but if those are not needed we have a compact PW that serves our needs. Note that this is shown in RFC4385 Fig1. > #2: Making 0 as a valid Seq.Num. > > DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet > > domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions > > (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No > > other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its > > own sequence number processing algorithm. So 0 can be a valid number > > and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with > RFC4385. > Exactly. Let's just define the Detnet encapsulation(s) to meet the needs of Detnet rather than try to force fit it into RFC4448. Best Regards Stewart > #3: Other ?!? > > Comments are welcome. > > Cheers > > Bala'zs > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger > Sent: 2018. janur 10. 19:01 > To: DetNet WG > Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim > > is available for download at: > > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301 > > raw notes are available at > > http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 > > Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording. > > Lou (and co-chairs) > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet --------------ACF5C34F95C956DD86602B8D Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit



On 15/01/2018 13:05, Balzs Varga A wrote:

Hi,

Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft.

This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering.

Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word:

- S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips zero.

It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448)

Possible problem resolutions:

#1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW:

0 1 2 3

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

|0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0 | 16 bit Sequence Number |

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

D-bit: set to 1 means DetNet specific Seq. Number used,

Bit5-15: reserved.

RFC4448 states that reserved bits MUST be ignored upon receipt, so backward

compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer seq.num.

formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385.


Why do we need any compatibility with RFC4448 in this regard? The
only reason that I can see is if we think there are a lot of existing
T-PEs out there that support RFC4448 and s/n processing. I am ready
to be corrected, but I really don't think there is any significant deployment.

I therefore think that it would be much better to define a new
Detnet Ethernet encapsulation type with the exact properties we need.

Now related to that, do we need to support any non-ethernet
encapsulated Detnet payloads, i.e. do we have to support
a native connectivity type other than Ethernet? If so
we need to make sure that we leave the bits in place to
length recovery.

Also will we ever need to have this be self discovering (something
that PWs were no designed to be)?

If the answer is no to both of these, we could for example make the
CW look as follows:


0 1 2 3

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

|0 0 0 0| Sequence Number |

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Then we can let the control plane specify the s/n length at whatever
make sense between 0 and 28 bits which should cover most applications.

What we have lost here is fragmentation at the PW layer, and the
ability to send non-Ethernet frames, but if those are not needed
we have a compact PW that serves our needs.

Note that this is shown in RFC4385 Fig1.

#2: Making 0 as a valid Seq.Num.

DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet

domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions

(i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No

other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its

own sequence number processing algorithm. So 0 can be a valid number

and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with RFC4385.


Exactly. Let's just define the Detnet encapsulation(s) to meet the needs
of Detnet rather than try to force fit it into RFC4448.

Best Regards

Stewart



#3: Other ?!?

Comments are welcome.

Cheers

Bala'zs

-----Original Message-----
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger
Sent: 2018. janur 10. 19:01
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim

is available for download at:

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301

raw notes are available at

http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01

Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording.

Lou (and co-chairs)

_______________________________________________

detnet mailing list

detnet@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet



_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

--------------ACF5C34F95C956DD86602B8D-- From nobody Mon Jan 15 10:28:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 870B112EB14; Mon, 15 Jan 2018 10:28:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: lberger@labn.net, detnet@ietf.org, db3546@att.com, detnet-chairs@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.68.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <151604088252.28385.3461665353983244864.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 10:28:02 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] detnet - Update to a Meeting Session Request for IETF 101 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 18:28:02 -0000 An update to a meeting session request has just been submitted by Lou Berger, a Chair of the detnet working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Deterministic Networking Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Lou Berger Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours, 2.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: pce teas ccamp netmod mpls Second Priority: rtgwg nvo3 tsvwg pals bess People who must be present: Lou Berger Deborah Brungard Jouni Korhonen Patricia Thaler Janos Farkas Resources Requested: Special Requests: Please schedule the longer session 2nd - Friday *is* acceptable. --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon Jan 15 12:36:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C26A512EC26 for ; 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Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:41596 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1ebBUD-002Xh2-Qe; Mon, 15 Jan 2018 13:36:05 -0700 To: detnet@ietf.org Cc: db3546@att.com, detnet-chairs@ietf.org References: <151604088252.28385.3461665353983244864.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:36:03 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <151604088252.28385.3461665353983244864.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1ebBUD-002Xh2-Qe X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.86.101]:41596 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 8 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Friday meeting at IETF 101 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 20:36:12 -0000 All,     As discussed in the virtual Interim last week, we intend to request meeting for an extended period of time on Friday.  This time will serve as a working session focusing on resolving dataplane open issues.  While Friday afternoon was suggested, this may or may not be logistically possible.  We are talking with our AD and the Secretariat and will let the WG know what to expect as soon as we have more details -- please plan your travel accordingly. Lou (and co-chairs) On 1/15/2018 1:28 PM, IETF Meeting Session Request Tool wrote: > > An update to a meeting session request has just been submitted by Lou Berger, a Chair of the detnet working group. > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Working Group Name: Deterministic Networking > Area Name: Routing Area > Session Requester: Lou Berger > > Number of Sessions: 2 > Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours, 2.5 Hours > Number of Attendees: 100 > Conflicts to Avoid: > First Priority: pce teas ccamp netmod mpls > Second Priority: rtgwg nvo3 tsvwg pals bess > > > > People who must be present: > Lou Berger > Deborah Brungard > Jouni Korhonen > Patricia Thaler > Janos Farkas > > Resources Requested: > > Special Requests: > Please schedule the longer session 2nd - Friday *is* acceptable. > --------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > From nobody Mon Jan 15 13:46:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B3FE12EC7C for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2018 13:45:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.687 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.687 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T5kOtuKmpVoX for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2018 13:45:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-x233.google.com (mail-oi0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A41C712EC7E for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2018 13:45:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi0-x233.google.com with SMTP id a70so9257985oib.1 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2018 13:45:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bjIz9/WOzyOQJE4q/J5iWLA6Q1/ZBp03mQ5l0P2LqVI=; b=QOIZ7iDU9G58F2YWKKHhPJ5MUJfZLWU29e2lftkF+SCarK67S65dcS3fgPZRcYORzF OitF5Uiy70rN9rhgcxxvhCsm/3JbTSwtBhtYNt50Co5gE+RILolWGAqFoO0efZfpapRn b5fdS7CVd5KvYfKXkqbKNSoUwbymCKXjrOtnf+4yZ5uy8JmI05hLNKpM0VbrD3JpE4Bk c+XRYPd0t3OtKtKCjB5LZvTXr9uYxPIk1TsZXxk+wpv+g9cp1zHBVsTz8Rrbh4Baf6P6 C20vYAykrMyXGvT4LD4IORFsbYaLsiKoBuAt8bTU4iBdbsNDT7rMm5OqDj4wwOernh39 tzoA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bjIz9/WOzyOQJE4q/J5iWLA6Q1/ZBp03mQ5l0P2LqVI=; b=RE8RM8X4kjOBQKJ8+3aMK76BM+RYdsXSOLE+UoiHAEDie4fVmucEaKOC2nVGOoSgcO Zb2ujcHQVfcN9dXHCQhCCeeeTMu/z9Zpaecyn5KaKKhvJZSdFiJ+vjsdQMYYeIFcZfLr ECkRBXH+lRoKDpBOyCinNc3MZHyfqY+FUXKNrvWQksfAAR2O3gzhC/SKwjserbQoqV40 s4IxeyyBlki0JBRQRTTpGastarksEk1VNRdQrp0VSJ3Bf8vnwTQqrd9/JvqNA/s0NK8M 3+OaJ4GgazIKoBv3BJwh+RPqfOZDc7Ww7aG46fUvbL9dfsuPSJM/IV10+68CDdJ1N+SB R+0A== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytdReS6EXjnMVYUduvjaqATXbrC9ykZumgyFXz/GWmkvhSm2DGHH 0Oqmp4omVd3MdTvp17Xd8uq1E4+g3YDEUE4fXt4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBovnmtVzuIRwhkAMn3o8x9W0EN7FNtr6JhR4cd6gn0EOZdddGbTS/vNE/eJqXlFgmXt0rb5RC1ys/v84aVa0rk8= X-Received: by 10.202.95.6 with SMTP id t6mr8011886oib.57.1516052755699; Mon, 15 Jan 2018 13:45:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.17.189 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Jan 2018 13:45:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 16:45:35 -0500 Message-ID: To: Stewart Bryant Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Varga_A?= , DetNet WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113cdbbcf6e23c0562d789d0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 21:45:59 -0000 --001a113cdbbcf6e23c0562d789d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stewart has it right, we=E2=80=99ve both made this point at the last couple= of DETNET sessions. Determine the exact functionality that we need. such as the sequence number length (I made the point during the recent virtual meeting that 16 bits is probably not enough to prevent wrap-around) and whether we need fragmentation, and just follow the guidelines for RFC 4385 figure 1 (first nibble needs to be zero, but after that, we=E2=80=99re free= to do what we want). It=E2=80=99s easy for IANA to allocate another PW type, DETN= ET in this case. Cheers, Andy On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 9:14 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: > > > On 15/01/2018 13:05, Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft= . > > This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. > > > > Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: > > - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips > zero. > > It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) > > > > Possible problem resolutions: > > #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: > > 0 1 2 3 > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0 | 16 bit Sequence Number | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > D-bit: set to =E2=80=9C1=E2=80=9D means DetNet specific Seq. Number used, > > Bit5-15: reserved. > > > > RFC4448 states that reserved bits =E2=80=9CMUST be ignored upon receipt= =E2=80=9D, so > backward > > compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer > seq.num. > > formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385. > > > Why do we need any compatibility with RFC4448 in this regard? The > only reason that I can see is if we think there are a lot of existing > T-PEs out there that support RFC4448 and s/n processing. I am ready > to be corrected, but I really don't think there is any significant > deployment. > > I therefore think that it would be much better to define a new > Detnet Ethernet encapsulation type with the exact properties we need. > > Now related to that, do we need to support any non-ethernet > encapsulated Detnet payloads, i.e. do we have to support > a native connectivity type other than Ethernet? If so > we need to make sure that we leave the bits in place to > length recovery. > > Also will we ever need to have this be self discovering (something > that PWs were no designed to be)? > > If the answer is no to both of these, we could for example make the > CW look as follows: > > > 0 1 2 3 > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > |0 0 0 0| Sequence Number | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > Then we can let the control plane specify the s/n length at whatever > make sense between 0 and 28 bits which should cover most applications. > > What we have lost here is fragmentation at the PW layer, and the > ability to send non-Ethernet frames, but if those are not needed > we have a compact PW that serves our needs. > > Note that this is shown in RFC4385 Fig1. > > > > #2: Making =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D as a valid Seq.Num. > > DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet > > domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions > > (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No > > other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its > > own sequence number processing algorithm. So =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D can be a= valid number > > and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with > RFC4385. > > > Exactly. Let's just define the Detnet encapsulation(s) to meet the needs > of Detnet rather than try to force fit it into RFC4448. > > Best Regards > > Stewart > > > > > > > #3: Other =E2=80=A6 ?!? > > > > Comments are welcome. > > > > Cheers > > Bala'zs > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org ] > On Behalf Of Lou Berger > Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 10. 19:01 > To: DetNet WG > Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim > > > > is available for download at: > > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3De5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf2023= 01 > > > > raw notes are available at > > http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 > > > > Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording. > > > > Lou (and co-chairs) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing listdetnet@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/d= etnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > --001a113cdbbcf6e23c0562d789d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Stewart has it right, we=E2=80=99ve both made this point a= t the last couple of DETNET sessions. Determine the exact functionality tha= t we need. such as the sequence number length (I made the point during the = recent virtual meeting that 16 bits is probably not enough to prevent wrap-= around) and whether we need fragmentation, and just follow the guidelines f= or RFC 4385 figure 1 (first nibble needs to be zero, but after that, we=E2= =80=99re free to do what we want). It=E2=80=99s easy for IANA to allocate a= nother PW type, DETNET in this case.

Cheers,
A= ndy


On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 9:14 AM, Stewart Bryant <stewa= rt.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20



On 15/01/2018 13:05= , Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Hi,

=C2=A0=

Some thoughts to sta= rt discussion on open points of the DP solution draft.

This mail(-thread) i= s on sequence numbering.

=C2=A0=

Problem in case of M= PLS and DetNet Control Word:

- S/N skips zero pro= blem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips zero.

It uses zero to mean= no S/N in use. (rfc4448)

=C2=A0=

Possible problem res= olutions:

#1: Using a "fl= ag" in the reserved bits part of the CW:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 2=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0 16 bit Seque= nce Number=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=

D-bit: set to =E2=80= =9C1=E2=80=9D means DetNet specific Seq. Number used,

Bit5-15: reserved.

=C2=A0=

RFC4448 states that = reserved bits =E2=80=9CMUST be ignored upon receipt=E2=80=9D, so backward

compatibility is ens= ured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer seq.num.

formats (if needed).= Such a format is also inline with RFC4385.


 Why do we need any compatibility with RFC4448 in this regard? The
only reason that I can see is if we think there are a lot of existing
T-PEs out there that support RFC4448 and s/n processing. I am ready
to be corrected, but I really don't think there is any significant deployment.

I therefore think that it would be much better to define a new
Detnet Ethernet encapsulation type with the exact properties we need.

Now related to that, do we need to support any non-ethernet
encapsulated Detnet payloads, i.e. do we have to support
a native connectivity type other than Ethernet? If so
we need to make sure that we leave the bits in place to
length recovery.

Also will we ever need to have this be self discovering (something
that PWs were no designed to be)?

If the answer is no to both of these, we could for example make the
CW look as follows:


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 2=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |0 0 0 0|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Seq= uence Number=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Then we can let the control plane specify the s/n length at whatever make sense between 0 and 28 bits which should cover most applications.

What we have lost here is fragmentation at the PW layer, and the
ability to send non-Ethernet frames, but if those are not needed
we have a compact PW that serves our needs.

Note that this is shown in RFC4385=C2=A0 Fig1.

=C2=A0=

#2: Making =E2=80=9C= 0=E2=80=9D as a valid Seq.Num.

DetNet flows are rec= ognized and forwarded special within the DetNet

domain. S/N is used = within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions

(i.e. PREF). S/N use= d only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No

other nodes care abo= ut the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its

own sequence number = processing algorithm. So =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D can be a valid number=

and not the indicati= on that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with RFC4385.


 Exactly. Let's just define the Detnet encapsulation(s) to meet the needs
of Detnet rather than try to force fit it into RFC4448.

Best Regards

Stewart


=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

#3: Other =E2=80=A6 = ?!?

=C2=A0=

Comments are welcome= .

=C2=A0=

Cheers=

Bala'zs

=C2=A0=

-----Original Messag= e-----
From: detnet [mailto:detne= t-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger
Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 10. 19:01
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org&= gt;
Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim

=C2=A0=

is available for dow= nload at:

https://i= etf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3De5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf2023<= wbr>01

=C2=A0=

raw notes are availa= ble at

http://etherpa= d.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01<= /a>

=C2=A0=

Please feel free to = update the etherpad based on the recording.

=C2=A0=

Lou (and co-chairs)<= u>

=C2=A0=

____________________= ___________________________

detnet mailing list<= u>

detnet@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/detnet



_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/detnet


_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

--001a113cdbbcf6e23c0562d789d0-- From nobody Mon Jan 15 17:14:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0D6C12D854 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2018 17:14:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 35q4UxU1rEWB for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2018 17:14:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E5EF126DED for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2018 17:14:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 6C2E1289E009D; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 01:14:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEML422-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.39) by LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.361.1; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 01:14:34 +0000 Received: from DGGEML510-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.54]) by dggeml422-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 09:14:29 +0800 From: Mach Chen To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Varga_A?= , DetNet WG Thread-Topic: DP solution (Sequence Numbering) Thread-Index: AdON9g9s51ad7oXxQLCexQu8wQXvkQAb0RFQ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 01:14:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.194.201] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE292314343dggeml510mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 01:14:39 -0000 --_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE292314343dggeml510mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Balazs, #2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, seems = there is no compatibility issue. In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to differentiate a DetN= et flow from a non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can process the = CW as expected. In TSN, it uses the priority to determine whether a flow i= s TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the same way (e.g., T= C, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself implies the situation, but it = seems that this only works when the DetNet service label is the top label. Any other thoughts? Best regards, Mach From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bal=E1zs Varga A Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM To: DetNet WG Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) Hi, Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft. This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips zero= . It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) Possible problem resolutions: #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0 | 16 bit Sequence Number | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ D-bit: set to "1" means DetNet specific Seq. Number used, Bit5-15: reserved. RFC4448 states that reserved bits "MUST be ignored upon receipt", so backwa= rd compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer se= q.num. formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385. #2: Making "0" as a valid Seq.Num. DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its own sequence number processing algorithm. So "0" can be a valid number and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with RFC438= 5. #3: Other ... ?!? Comments are welcome. Cheers Bala'zs -----Original Message----- From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger Sent: 2018. janu=E1r 10. 19:01 To: DetNet WG > Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim is available for download at: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3De5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301 raw notes are available at http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording. Lou (and co-chairs) _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet --_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE292314343dggeml510mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= Hi Balazs,=

=  

= #2 is a more nature solution= , the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, seems there is no compatibility is= sue.

=  

= In addition, I think we need= to define a way on how to differentiate a DetNet flow from a non-DetNet fl= ow, then the network processor can process the CW as expected.  In TSN, it uses the priority to determine whethe= r a flow is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the same wa= y (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself implies the situatio= n, but it seems that this only works when the DetNet service label is the top label.  

=  

= Any other thoughts?

=  

= Best regards,

= Mach

=  

From: detnet [mailto:d= etnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bal=E1zs Varga = A
Sent: Monday, January 15, 20= 18 9:06 PM
To: DetNet WG <detnet@iet= f.org>
Subject: [Detnet] DP solutio= n (Sequence Numbering)

 

Hi,

 

Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the D= P solution draft.

This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering.

 

Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word:

- S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states t= hat S/N skips zero.

It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448)<= /span>

 

Possible problem resolutions:

#1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of= the CW:

   =    0          &= nbsp;        1    &n= bsp;            = ;  2           =         3

   =    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 = 1

   =   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-&#= 43;-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

   =   |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0  |   16 bit Sequence N= umber      |

   =   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-&#= 43;-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

D-bit: set to “1” means DetNet specific Seq. = Number used,

Bit5-15: reserved.

 

RFC4448 states that reserved bits “MUST be ignored = upon receipt”, so backward

compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow als= o to use longer seq.num.

formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RF= C4385.

 

#2: Making “0” as a valid Seq.Num.=

DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within = the DetNet

domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Se= rvice functions

(i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet= relay-nodes. No

other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet= can specify its

own sequence number processing algorithm. So “0R= 21; can be a valid number

and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is = inline with RFC4385.

 

#3: Other … ?!?

 

Comments are welcome.

 

Cheers

Bala'zs

 

-----Original Message-----
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-boun= ces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger
Sent: 2018. janu=E1r 10. 19:01
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>= ;
Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim

 

is available for download at:

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3D= e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301=

 

raw notes are available at

http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-iet= f-interim-2018-detnet-01

 

Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the reco= rding.

 

Lou (and co-chairs)

 

_______________________________________________

detnet mailing list

= detnet@ietf.org

= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet<= /span>

--_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE292314343dggeml510mbxchi_-- From nobody Tue Jan 16 02:46:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88E54127076 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:46:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.988 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.988 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6jOH5WBaxABK for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:46:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr0-x233.google.com (mail-wr0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D16F12D94B for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr0-x233.google.com with SMTP id x1so10509436wrb.5 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:46:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=6iSjkprtzA2zYIckQldI4r6u7RMkxUlfUPt/ZvmuFDs=; b=S8qLi15V/kvoJVWYLJwQ5y8CCl/pguWqkC3fx3exACaxcDxq/1mwmlOZJGoqwh3ChR EM0f4lrRS5nBuuG10e98IOFca91xPMrQkZSg2k9zjvA2EPXwxEIHIjmpIGX5vJwl2INj aFtHUg5vEuRlHWGfYf3R+i6cHA2PCJC1dhYSWFvDqB6UiC6ACBcYQucyAeEM7Gj9/ScO xO7D6xebDbVgYgZr61jBEZM8YwWPLH5NomU8JkvYheNdiOK326dlzRkLRRwMvFyS3FkB SxjHjWvwVuI6v2NYlweA/eUUUvu4IeQzlM7X4ZnxOjSGvfuvGUYNV4SybWPc+6onW+nj 8OgA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=6iSjkprtzA2zYIckQldI4r6u7RMkxUlfUPt/ZvmuFDs=; b=N7TmLtFUMX/rOlC/Htq0NdbVoNFGaMmoToXQAoa/LNn1DtRoKSuCuWS6U5LK9MH8Hh je3gkoIqyGM6+dh1uKT2LKV9XKsLI/sz36cvSSfbRY95mtYk6TLeBgkkukAoGUWc7x3C Cx9UkKC5IzTzJrJF9TgmRmZDj9Cj9DzGgUMkfqsk7Sj1YHDqg9JVa6kI5fkHTD5qNaWf 7dArNWJdQeG/9C9fpVuXmceyFWQjhJy8k0QRLxsCb9dJYt8bth/y8uU5HFqW1QLaDMuT 8opKrPYYhe6qOSw65/qZ9R5hdtKuLcDKftN4qFu29KnBNMrpLOo6asMx5XDcO94+LEUx a2sA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mJT/CW7YkmDaoQWrn9qUXOyUwnbcdmuc2pIHQZSH5ECs9ogXJeM SCvhdA9MwI7lzhpi8L+H7zEd5OGZ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBosElKEuRfVXE20waV/N17zitvxozMB5xwM1LZsBCx/UL9Odj2gvrpDBFUdSJ8Ky7XWOvZtgyw== X-Received: by 10.223.199.205 with SMTP id y13mr26119416wrg.114.1516099595955; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:46:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.126] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u194sm2368580wmd.6.2018.01.16.02.46.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:46:35 -0800 (PST) To: Mach Chen , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= , DetNet WG References: From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <0e63108f-2b9e-95b7-57f7-dcc389b8b96f@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 10:46:34 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------0112E81E987B9083B0DF6BE1" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 10:46:40 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0112E81E987B9083B0DF6BE1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer then we really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, but we could introduce the concept, for example by making this the property of the IP address or some way of MPLSing IP. However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our expectation that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our expectation that at lest in some networks the data plane is generic with some DN nodes strategically placed? I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers will all be DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most networks we need to design for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware. - Stewart On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote: > > Hi Balazs, > > #2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, > seems there is no compatibility issue. > > In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to differentiate a > DetNet flow from a non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can > process the CW as expected. In TSN, it uses the priority to determine > whether a flow is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use > the same way (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself > implies the situation, but it seems that this only works when the > DetNet service label is the top label. > > Any other thoughts? > > Best regards, > > Mach > > *From:* detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Balzs > Varga A > *Sent:* Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM > *To:* DetNet WG > *Subject:* [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > > Hi, > > Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft. > > This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. > > Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: > > - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips > zero. > > It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) > > Possible problem resolutions: > > #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: > > 0 1 2 3 > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0 | 16 bit Sequence Number | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > D-bit: set to 1 means DetNet specific Seq. Number used, > > Bit5-15: reserved. > > RFC4448 states that reserved bits MUST be ignored upon receipt, so > backward > > compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use > longer seq.num. > > formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385. > > #2: Making 0 as a valid Seq.Num. > > DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet > > domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions > > (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No > > other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its > > own sequence number processing algorithm. So 0 can be a valid number > > and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with > RFC4385. > > #3: Other ?!? > > Comments are welcome. > > Cheers > > Bala'zs > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger > Sent: 2018. janur 10. 19:01 > To: DetNet WG > > Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim > > is available for download at: > > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301 > > raw notes are available at > > http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 > > Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording. > > Lou (and co-chairs) > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet --------------0112E81E987B9083B0DF6BE1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer then we really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, but we could introduce the concept, for example by making this the property of the IP address or some way of MPLSing IP.

However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our expectation that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our expectation that at lest in some networks the data plane is generic with some DN nodes strategically placed?

I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers will all be DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most networks we need to design for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware.

- Stewart


On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote:

Hi Balazs,

#2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, seems there is no compatibility issue.

In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to differentiate a DetNet flow from a non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can process the CW as expected. In TSN, it uses the priority to determine whether a flow is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the same way (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself implies the situation, but it seems that this only works when the DetNet service label is the top label.

Any other thoughts?

Best regards,

Mach

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Balzs Varga A
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

Hi,

Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft.

This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering.

Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word:

- S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips zero.

It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448)

Possible problem resolutions:

#1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW:

0 1 2 3

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

|0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0 | 16 bit Sequence Number |

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

D-bit: set to 1 means DetNet specific Seq. Number used,

Bit5-15: reserved.

RFC4448 states that reserved bits MUST be ignored upon receipt, so backward

compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer seq.num.

formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385.

#2: Making 0 as a valid Seq.Num.

DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet

domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions

(i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No

other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its

own sequence number processing algorithm. So 0 can be a valid number

and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with RFC4385.

#3: Other ?!?

Comments are welcome.

Cheers

Bala'zs

-----Original Message-----
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger
Sent: 2018. janur 10. 19:01
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim

is available for download at:

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301

raw notes are available at

http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01

Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording.

Lou (and co-chairs)

_______________________________________________

detnet mailing list

detnet@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet



_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

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Friday at IETF101 = March 23. Lou On January 16, 2018 5:53:59 AM Balázs Varga A wrote: > Hi Lou, > Just a note for the group. > Friday means: 16th March (the Friday before the IETF101). > Cheers > Bala'zs > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger > Sent: 2018. január 15. 21:36 > To: detnet@ietf.org > Cc: db3546@att.com; detnet-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: [Detnet] Friday meeting at IETF 101 > > All, > >     As discussed in the virtual Interim last week, we intend to request > meeting for an extended period of time on Friday.  This time will serve as > a working session focusing on resolving dataplane open issues.  While > Friday afternoon was suggested, this may or may not be logistically > possible.  We are talking with our AD and the Secretariat and will let the > WG know what to expect as soon as we have more details -- please plan your > travel accordingly. > > Lou (and co-chairs) > > On 1/15/2018 1:28 PM, IETF Meeting Session Request Tool wrote: >> >> An update to a meeting session request has just been submitted by Lou >> Berger, a Chair of the detnet working group. >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------- >> Working Group Name: Deterministic Networking Area Name: Routing Area >> Session Requester: Lou Berger >> >> Number of Sessions: 2 >> Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours, 2.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 >> Conflicts to Avoid: >> First Priority: pce teas ccamp netmod mpls >> Second Priority: rtgwg nvo3 tsvwg pals bess >> >> >> >> People who must be present: >> Lou Berger >> Deborah Brungard >> Jouni Korhonen >> Patricia Thaler >> Janos Farkas >> >> Resources Requested: >> >> Special Requests: >> Please schedule the longer session 2nd - Friday *is* acceptable. >> --------------------------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Tue Jan 16 03:57:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 675B012DA21 for ; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Xuesong I am wondering if this part of the text is correct: "For example, there are two slices in the network: Slice-A and Slice-B; Det= Net is used to transit URLLC services: URLLC-A and URLLC-B. Without DetNet, URLLC-A and URLLC-B compete for bandwidth resource. Latency and reliability= is not guaranteed; With DetNet, URLLC-A and URLLC-B have separate bandwidth reservation and there is no confliction between them, just as the= y are in different logical networks. " Or did you mean to say that (DetNet -> slice): Without slicing URLLC-A and URLLC-B compete for bandwidth resource. Latency= and reliability is not guaranteed; With silicing, URLLC-A and URLLC-B have= separate bandwidth reservation and there is no confliction between them, just as the= y are in different logical networks. Best regards Hannu From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gengxuesong (Gen= g Xuesong) Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 3:52 AM To: Toerless Eckert ; Greg Mirsky ; A= lexandre Petrescu ; detnet@ietf.org Cc: Grossman, Ethan A. ; Norman Finn ; Mach Chen Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases & slices suggestions Hi Toerless, Thank you for your comments. They are very useful. Here is the revised text of Network Slicing Use Case. You can find some of = your suggested words are added into it, which have been highlighted. I hope perhaps Greg and Alex can also be satisfied with this version , beca= use a paragraph tries to respond to your comments about adding other use ca= ses mentioned in 3GPP . I have highlighted them too. This is open to discuss. Any other comments are welcome. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------- 10. Network Slicing 10.1. Use Case Description Network slicing divides one physical network infrastructure into multiple l= ogical networks. Each slice, corresponding to a logical network, uses resources and network functions independently from each other. Network= slicing provides flexibility of resource allocation and service quality customization. Future services will demand network performance with= a wide variety of characteristics such as high data rate, low latency, low loss rate, security and many other parameters. Ideally every s= ervice would have its own physical network satisfying its particular performance requirements; however that would be prohibitively expensive. Ne= twork slicing can provide a customized slice for a single service, and multiple slices can share the same physical network. This method can op= timize the performance for the service at lower cost, and the flexibility of setting up and release the slices also allows the user to al= locate the network resources dynamically. Unlike other DetNet use cases, Network slicing is not a specific application with specific deterministic r= equirements; it is proposed as a new requirement for the future network, which is still in discussion, and DetNet is a candidate solution for it. 10.2 Using DetNet in Network Slicing 10.2.1 Hard resource isolation across slices One of the requirements discussed for network slicing is the "hard" separat= ion of various users' deterministic performance. That is, it should be impossible for activity, lack of activity, or changes in activity of one= or more users to have any appreciable effect on the deterministic performance parameters of any other slices. Typical techniques used today, = which share a physical network among users, do not offer this kind of insulation. DetNet can supply point-to-point or point-to-multipoint= paths that offer bandwidth and latency guarantees to a user that cannot be affected by other users' data traffic. Thus DetNet is a powerful = tool when latency and reliability are required in Network Slicing. 10.2.2 Deterministic services within slices Slices need to be able to provide services that require DetNet type guarant= ees. Technically, DetNet in Network Slicing can be used just the same as DetNet without Network Slicing.(from Toerless) 10.3 Network Slicing Use Case Network Slicing is a core feature of 5G defined in 3GPP, which is currently= under development. A Network Slice in mobile network is a complete logical network including Radio Access Network (RAN) and Core Network (CN).= It provides telecommunication services and network capabilities, which may vary (or not) from slice to slice. A 5G bearer network is a typic= al use case of network slicing, including 3 service scenarios: enhanced Mobile Broadband (eMBB), Ultra-Reliable and Low Latency Communications (URL= LC), and massive Machine Type Communications (mMTC). Each of these are described below. ? Enhanced Mobile Broadband (eMBB) eMBB focuses on services characterized by high data rates, such as high def= inition (HD) videos, virtual reality (VR), augmented reality (AR), and fixed mobile convergence (FMC). ? Ultra-Reliable and Low Latency Communications (URLLC) URLLC focuses on latency-sensitive services, such as self-driving vehicles,= remote surgery, or drone control. ? massive Machine Type Communications (mMTC) mMTC focuses on services that have high requirements for connection density= , such as those typical for smart city and smart agriculture use cases. 5G bearer uses DetNet to have hard resource isolation across slices and wit= hin the slice. For example, there are two slices in the network: Slice-A and Slice-B; DetN= et is used to transit URLLC services: URLLC-A and URLLC-B. Without DetNet, URLLC-A and URLLC-B compete for bandwidth resource. Latency and reliability= is not guaranteed; With DetNet, URLLC-A and URLLC-B have separate bandwidth reservation and there is no confliction between them, just as the= y are in different logical networks. Even though not necessary within the scope of work explicitly charted for s= lices in 5G: Whenever 5G or other network service providers see the opportunity to operate services described as use-cases in other sections of= this document across a shared physical infrastructure, network slices woul= d be the likely preferred approach to provide such services. Examples include= providing electrical utilities services (section 3.), pro audio services (section 2.) or V2X via slices. Use cases like these could become = more into the focus for network slices when the work for 5G core network ev= olution will include services that are more inclusive of even wired access options = required in those use-cases. ( part from Toerless and the highlighted text answers the question of Greg = and Alex) However, DetNet cannot cover every Network Slicing use case, and there are = some other problems to be solved. Firstly, DetNet is a point-to-point or point-to-multipoint technology while Network Slicing needs multi-point to m= ulti-point guarantee. Second, the number of flows that can be carried by DetNet is limited by DetNet scalability. Flow aggregation and queuing manag= ement modification may help to fix the problem. More work and discussions are needed in these topics. 10.4 Network Slicing Today and Future Network slicing can satisfy the requirements of a lot of future deployment = scenario, but it is still a collection of ideas and analysis, without a spe= cific technical solution. A lot of technologies, such as Flex-E, Segment Routing,= and DetNet have potential to be used in Network Slicing. For more details please see IETF99 Network Slicing BOF session agenda and materials. 10.5. Network Slicing Asks ? Isolation from other flows through Queuing Management ? Service Quality Customization and Guarantee ? Security ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------- Best Regards Xuesong >-----Original Message----- >From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:tte@cs.fau.de] >Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 11:32 AM >To: detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases@i= etf.org >Subject: draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases & slices suggestions > >Wrt to my comments on the mike@singapore re. slicing use-case: > >First of all i would like to reinforce Stewarts statement that we should n= ot >remove slicing from the use-case draft. My point was different: making the >importance for detnet in slicing clearer - because i think it is hierarchi= cal and >multi-faceted, and that does not well reflect in the current text. > >Following suggestions for improvements aside, the existing text of 10. is = already >very nicely enlightening about slices, more so than i have seen in other p= laces. > >A) I would not call 10.1 "Use Case Description" but instead "Technology >Description" > >B) 10.3 up to the the "However" is IMHO the most fundamental use-case for >detnet > in the slicing realm. It should be moved and become e.g.: a new 10.2.1 >use-case, > here is proposed changed paragraphs: > > 10.2.1 Hard resource isolation across slices > > |Network slicing aims to provide logical networks with hard resource > |separation guarantees between those different logical networks. > |Hard resource separation means that it should be impossible for activit= y, > |lack of activity, or changes in activity of one or more slices to have > |any appreciable effect on the deterministic performance parameters of a= ny > |other slices. > > |Typical techniques used today (for example in pre-existing logical/virt= ual > |network solutions), which share a physical network amongst users, do > |not offer this kind of insulation. DetNet can supply point-to-point > |or point-to-multipoint paths that offer bandwidth and latency > |guarantees to a slice that cannot be affected by other slices data > |traffic. > > I hope i did correctly interpret "user" to mean "slice", because, but ev= en > if not, i think the above is correct: If we want to have strict separati= on > guarantees btween different users inside the same clice, that is IMHO a > separate use case within the slicing technology: > >C) I would group existing 10.2.1...10.2.3 under a common use-case, maybe: > > 10.2.2 Deterministic services within slices > > Slices need to be able to provide services that require detnet type > guarantees. These requirements would equally make the use of detnet > for these services a requirement if the service was not provided via a > logical network slice but via a separate physcial network (and therefor= e > the use-case requirement of 10.2.1 would not exist) > > A 5G bearer network is a typical ... > [ Make existing 10.2.1...10.2.3 become eg: 10.2.2.1 ... 10.2.2.3] > > >D) It would be nice to have more clarifying details > about the sentence "A 5G bearer network is a typical > use case of network slicing, including 3 service scenarios" > > If the answer to my questions are not really clear because 3GPP has not > make up its mind what exactly is required, then maybe phrase the text > accordingly (3GPP has not yet decided where or...): > > 1. Will 3GPP want to have slices which are NOT 5G bearer networks ? > if yes, then say this. > > 2. For a network slice which is a 5G bearer network, would it have > only one of the 3 service scenarios, or any subset of the 3 ? > > 3. If the answer to 1. is "yes, also slices that are not 3GPP bearers", > would any or all of the three mentioned service scenarios also > be required in those non-3GPP slices ? > >E) It might be useful to add text stating that use cases for detnet > mentioned in other sections of the document would likely become > use cases of slices in the future. > > Possible suggested text: > > Even though not necesary within the scope of work explicitly charted > for slices in 5G: Whenever 5G or other network service providers see th= e > opportunity to operate services described as use-cases in other section= s of > this document across a shared physcial infrastructure, network slices > would be the likely preferred approach to provide such services. > > Examples include providing electrical utilities services (section 3.) > or pro audio services (section 2.) via slices. Use cases like these cou= ld >become > more into the focus for network slices when the work for 5G core > network evolution will include services that are more inclusive of > even wired access options required in those use-cases. > >F) Another likely evolution of slices worthwhile to notice: > > Slices may equally become the preferred mode of providing services that > are otherwise considered to be out of scope in this document, such as > those in 12.2. These can easily come into scope when Mobile Edge Comput= e > ressources connecting to slices can allow to provide detnet service >guarantees > to these use-cases by eliminating the uncontrolled parts of a path > between servers and client. > >Cheers > Toerless > >On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 09:06:40AM +0000, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: >> Tal does this work for you? >> Ethan. >> >> On Nov 13, 2017, at 3:48 PM, Norman Finn >>> >wrote: >> >> Sounds like Tuesday 16:00. Right? Near registration. >> >> -- Norm >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] >> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 8:16 PM >> To: Das, Subir >> Cc: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw); Norman Finn; >> draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org >> ietf.org>; detnet@ietf.org>; Gary Weiner >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up >> >> I can do Tuesday 16:00. I have a commitment Tuesday at 18:30. >> Ethan. >> >> On Nov 13, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Das, Subir >>> wrote: >> >> I arrived today but can't make it on Tuesday at 13:30. Available from 1= 6:00. >> ________________________________ >> From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] >> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 10:15 PM >> To: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) >> Cc: Norman Finn; >> draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org >> ietf.org>; detnet@ietf.org>; Gary Weiner >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up >> >> Yes I was agreeing to Tuesday. >> Ethan. >> >> On Nov 13, 2017, at 10:46 AM, Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) >>> wrote: >> >> On Tuesday. Correct ? >> >> Patrick >> >> From: detnet >> >> on behalf of "Grossman, Ethan A." >> >> >> Date: Monday, 13 November 2017 at 03:43 >> To: Norman Finn >> >>> >, >> "draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org> @ietf.org>" >> > @ietf.org>> >> Cc: "detnet@ietf.org" >> >>, Gary Weiner >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up >> >> Meet at 13:30 at IETF Registration? >> Ethan. >> >> From: Norman Finn [mailto:norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com] >> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 4:52 PM >> To: Grossman, Ethan A. >>; >> draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org >> ietf.org> >> Cc: Gary Weiner >>; >> detnet@ietf.org> >> Subject: RE: DetNet Security Meet-Up >> >> Yes, let's get together. Right now, any time Tuesday after lunch would = be >fine. >> >> -- Norm >> ________________________________ >> From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] >> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:59 AM >> To: >> draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org >> ietf.org> >> Cc: Gary Weiner; detnet@ietf.org> >> Subject: DetNet Security Meet-Up >> Hello DetNet Security draft authors, (and adding the DetNet list since >> we are now a WG draft and would like to include anyone who has any inter= est), >Tal and I are here in Singapore and would like to know if any of the rest = of you >might be here in town and might want to meet up over lunch or dinner (or >something) to discuss DetNet security, e.g. next steps for the DetNet Secu= rity >draft. If so, please reply and we can plan something. >> Thanks, >> Ethan. >> Ethan Grossman, DetNet Security Draft editor. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > >-- >--- >tte@cs.fau.de --_000_HE1PR07MB0842EBDBF87FC15FBBF8B9379BEA0HE1PR07MB0842eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Xuesong

 

I am wondering if t= his part of the text is correct:

 

“For example, there are two slices in the network: = Slice-A and Slice-B; DetNet is used to transit URLLC services: URLLC-A and = URLLC-B. Without DetNet,

URLLC-A and URLLC-B compete for bandwidth resource. Laten= cy and reliability is not guaranteed; With DetNet, URLLC-A and URLLC-B have= separate

bandwidth reservation and there is no confliction between= them, just as they are in different logical networks. “

 

Or did you mean to say that (DetNet -> slice):

Without slicing URLLC-A and URLLC-B compete for bandwidth= resource. Latency and reliability is not guaranteed; With silicing, URLLC-= A and URLLC-B have separate

bandwidth= reservation and there is no confliction between them, just as they are in = different logical networks.

&nbs= p;

Best rega= rds

Hannu

 

From: = detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 3:52 AM
To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>; Greg Mirsky <gregimirs= ky@gmail.com>; Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>; = detnet@ietf.org
Cc: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; Norman Finn <nor= man.finn@mail01.huawei.com>; Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases & slices sugge= stions

 =

Hi Toerless,

 

Thank you for your comments. They are very useful.

Here is the revised text of Network Slicing Use Case. = You can find some of your suggested words are added into it, which have bee= n highlighted.

I hope perhaps Greg and Alex can also be satisfied wit= h this version , because a paragraph tries to respond to your comments abou= t adding other use cases mentioned in 3GPP . I have highlighted them too.

This is open to discuss.

Any other comments are welcome.

------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------------------

10. Network Slicing

10.1. Use Case Description

Network slicing divides one physical network infrastru= cture into multiple logical networks. Each slice, corresponding to a logica= l network,

uses resources and network functions independently fro= m each other. Network slicing provides flexibility of resource allocation a= nd service

quality customization. Future services will demand net= work performance with a wide variety of characteristics such as high data r= ate, low

latency, low loss rate, security and many other parame= ters. Ideally every service would have its own physical network satisfying = its particular

performance requirements; however that would be prohib= itively expensive. Network slicing can provide a customized slice for a sin= gle service,

and multiple slices can share the same physical networ= k. This method can optimize the performance for the service at lower cost, = and the

flexibility of setting up and release the slices also = allows the user to allocate the network resources dynamically. Unlike other= DetNet use cases,

Network slicing is not a specific application with spe= cific deterministic requirements; it is proposed as a new requirement for t= he future network,

which is still in discussion, and DetNet is a candidat= e solution for it.

 

10.2 Using DetNet in Network Slicing

10.2.1 Hard resource isolation across slices

One of the requirements discussed for network slicing is = the "hard" separation of various users’ deterministic perfo= rmance. That is, it should

be impossible for activity, lack of activity, or changes = in activity of one or more users to have any appreciable effect on the dete= rministic

performance parameters of any other slices. Typical techn= iques used today, which share a physical network among users, do not offer = this

kind of insulation. DetNet can supply point-to-point or p= oint-to-multipoint paths that offer bandwidth and latency guarantees to a u= ser that

cannot be affected by other users’ data traffic. Th= us DetNet is a powerful tool when latency and reliability are required in N= etwork Slicing.

 

10.2.2 Deterministic services within slices=

Slices need to be able to provide services t= hat require DetNet type guarantees. Technically, DetNet in Network Slicing = can be used just the

same as DetNet without Network Slicing.(from Toe= rless)

 

10.3 Network Slicing Use Case

Network Slicing is a core feature of 5G defined in 3GPP, = which is currently under development. A Network Slice in mobile network is = a complete

logical network including Radio Access Network (RAN) and = Core Network (CN). It provides telecommunication services and network capab= ilities,

which may vary (or not) from slice to slice. A 5G bearer = network is a typical use case of network slicing, including 3 service scena= rios: enhanced

Mobile Broadband (eMBB), Ultra-Reliable and Low Latency C= ommunications (URLLC), and massive Machine Type Communications (mMTC).

 

Each of these are described below.

Ÿ   Enhanced Mobile Broadband (eMBB)

eMBB focuses on services characterized by high data rates= , such as high definition (HD) videos, virtual reality (VR), augmented real= ity (AR),

and fixed mobile convergence (FMC).

Ÿ   Ultra-Reliable and Low Latency Communications (URLLC)

URLLC focuses on latency-sensitive services, such as self= -driving vehicles, remote surgery, or drone control.

Ÿ   massive Machine Type Communications (mMTC)

mMTC focuses on services that have high requirements for = connection density, such as those typical for smart city and smart agricult= ure use cases.

 

5G bearer uses DetNet to have hard resource isolation acr= oss slices and within the slice.

 

For example, there are two slices in the network: Slice-A= and Slice-B; DetNet is used to transit URLLC services: URLLC-A and URLLC-B= . Without DetNet,

URLLC-A and URLLC-B compete for bandwidth resource. Laten= cy and reliability is not guaranteed; With DetNet, URLLC-A and URLLC-B have= separate

bandwidth reservation and there is no confliction between= them, just as they are in different logical networks.

 

Even though not necessary within the scope of w= ork explicitly charted for slices in 5G: Whenever 5G or other network servi= ce providers see the

opportunity to operate services described as us= e-cases in other sections of this document across a shared physical infrast= ructure, network slices would

be the likely preferred approach to provide suc= h services. Examples include pro= viding electrical utilities services (section 3.), pro audio =

services= (section 2.) or V2X via slices. Use cases like these could become more into the focus for network slices when the work for 5G core ne= twork evolution

will include services that are more inclusive o= f even wired access options required in those use-cases.

( part from Toerless and the highlighted= text answers the question of Greg and Alex)

 

However, DetNet cannot cover every Network Slicing use ca= se, and there are some other problems to be solved. Firstly, DetNet is a po= int-to-point or

point-to-multipoint technology while Network Slicing need= s multi-point to multi-point guarantee. Second, the number of flows that ca= n be carried by

DetNet is limited by DetNet scalability. Flow aggregation= and queuing management modification may help to fix the problem. More work= and discussions

are needed in these topics.

 

10.4 Network Slicing Today and Future

Network slicing can satisfy the requirements of a lot of = future deployment scenario, but it is still a collection of ideas and analy= sis, without a specific

technical solution. A lot of technologies, such as Flex-E= , Segment Routing, and DetNet have potential to be used in Network Slicing.= For more details

please see IETF99 Network Slicing BOF session agenda and = materials.

 

10.5. Network Slicing Asks

Ÿ   I= solation from other flows through Queuing Management

Ÿ   S= ervice Quality Customization and Guarantee

Ÿ   S= ecurity

 

------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------------------

 =

 =

Best R= egards

 =

Xueson= g

 =

 =

 =

>--= ---Original Message-----

>Fr= om: Toerless Eckert [mailto:tte@cs.fau.de<= /a>]

>Se= nt: Thursday, November 16, 2017 11:32 AM

>To= : detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases@ietf.org

>Su= bject: draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases & slices suggestions

>&n= bsp;

>Wr= t to my comments on the mike@singapore re. slicing use-case:

>&n= bsp;

>Fi= rst of all i would like to reinforce Stewarts statement that we should not<= o:p>

>re= move slicing from the use-case draft. My point was different: making the

>im= portance for detnet in slicing clearer - because i think it is hierarchical= and

>mu= lti-faceted, and that does not well reflect in the current text.=

>&n= bsp;

>Fo= llowing suggestions for improvements aside, the existing text of 10. is alr= eady

>ve= ry nicely enlightening about slices, more so than i have seen in other plac= es.

>&n= bsp;

>A)= I would not call 10.1 "Use Case Description" but instead "T= echnology

>De= scription"

>&n= bsp;

>B)= 10.3 up to the the "However" is IMHO the most fundamental use-ca= se for

>de= tnet

>&n= bsp; in the slicing realm. It should be moved and become e.g.: a new 10.2.1=

>us= e-case,

>&n= bsp; here is proposed changed paragraphs:

>&n= bsp;

>&n= bsp; 10.2.1 Hard resource isolation across slices

>&n= bsp;

> &= nbsp;|Network slicing aims to provide logical networks with hard resource

>&n= bsp; |separation guarantees between those different logical networks.<= /o:p>

>&n= bsp; |Hard resource separation means that it should be impossible for activ= ity,

>&n= bsp; |lack of activity, or changes in activity of one or more slices to hav= e

>&n= bsp; |any appreciable effect on the deterministic performance parameters of= any

>&n= bsp; |other slices.

>&n= bsp;

>&n= bsp; |Typical techniques used today (for example in pre-existing logical/vi= rtual

>&n= bsp; |network solutions), which share a physical network amongst users, do<= o:p>

>&n= bsp; |not offer this kind of insulation.  DetNet can supply point-to-p= oint

>&n= bsp; |or point-to-multipoint paths that offer bandwidth and latency

>&n= bsp; |guarantees to a slice that cannot be affected by other slices data

>&n= bsp; |traffic.

>&n= bsp;

>&n= bsp; I hope i did correctly interpret "user" to mean "slice&= quot;, because, but even

>&n= bsp; if not, i think the above is correct: If we want to have strict separa= tion

>&n= bsp; guarantees btween different users inside the same clice, that is IMHO = a

>&n= bsp; separate use case within the slicing technology:

>&n= bsp;

>C)= I would group existing 10.2.1...10.2.3 under a common use-case, maybe:

>&n= bsp;

>&n= bsp;  10.2.2 Deterministic services within slices

>&n= bsp;

>&n= bsp;  Slices need to be able to provide services that require detnet t= ype

>&n= bsp;  guarantees. These requirements would equally make the use of det= net

>&n= bsp;  for these services a requirement if the service was not provided= via a

>&n= bsp;  logical network slice but via a separate physcial network (and t= herefore

>&n= bsp;  the use-case requirement of 10.2.1 would not exist)

>&n= bsp;

>&n= bsp;  A 5G bearer network is a typical  ...

>&n= bsp;  [ Make existing 10.2.1...10.2.3 become eg: 10.2.2.1 ... 10.2.2.3= ]

>&n= bsp;

>&n= bsp;

>D)= It would be nice to have more clarifying details

>&n= bsp;  about the sentence "A 5G bearer network is a typical

>&n= bsp;  use case of network slicing, including 3 service scenarios"=

>&n= bsp;

>&n= bsp;  If the answer to my questions are not really clear because 3GPP = has not

>&n= bsp;  make up its mind what exactly is required, then maybe phrase the= text

>&n= bsp;  accordingly (3GPP has not yet decided where or...):

>&n= bsp;

>&n= bsp;  1. Will 3GPP want to have slices which are NOT 5G bearer network= s ?

>&n= bsp;    if yes, then say this.

>&n= bsp;

>&n= bsp;  2. For a network slice which is a 5G bearer network, would it ha= ve

>&n= bsp;    only one of the 3 service scenarios, or any subset o= f the 3 ?

>&n= bsp;

>&n= bsp;  3. If the answer to 1. is "yes, also slices that are not 3G= PP bearers",

>&n= bsp;     would any or all of the three mentioned servic= e scenarios also

>&n= bsp;     be required in those non-3GPP slices ?

>&n= bsp;

>E)= It might be useful to add text stating that use cases for detnet

>&n= bsp;  mentioned in other sections of the document would likely become<= o:p>

>&n= bsp;  use cases of slices in the future.

>&n= bsp;

>&n= bsp;  Possible suggested text:

>&n= bsp;

>&n= bsp;  Even though not necesary within the scope of work explicitly cha= rted

>&n= bsp;  for slices in 5G: Whenever 5G or other network service providers= see the

>&n= bsp;  opportunity to operate services described as use-cases in other = sections of

>&n= bsp;  this document across a shared physcial infrastructure, network s= lices

>&n= bsp;  would be the likely preferred approach to provide such services.=

>&n= bsp;

>&n= bsp;  Examples include providing electrical utilities services (sectio= n 3.)

>&n= bsp;  or pro audio services (section 2.) via slices. Use cases like th= ese could

>be= come

>&n= bsp;  more into the focus for network slices when the work for 5G core=

>&n= bsp;  network evolution will include services that are more inclusive = of

>&n= bsp;  even wired access options required in those use-cases.

>&n= bsp;

>F)= Another likely evolution of slices worthwhile to notice:=

>&n= bsp;

>&n= bsp;  Slices may equally become the preferred mode of providing servic= es that

>&n= bsp;  are otherwise considered to be out of scope in this document, su= ch as

>&n= bsp;  those in 12.2. These can easily come into scope when Mobile Edge= Compute

>&n= bsp;  ressources connecting to slices can allow to provide detnet serv= ice

>gu= arantees

>&n= bsp;  to these use-cases by eliminating the uncontrolled parts of a pa= th

>&n= bsp;  between servers and client.

>&n= bsp;

>Ch= eers

>&n= bsp;   Toerless

>&n= bsp;

>On= Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 09:06:40AM +0000, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:<= /o:p>

>&g= t; Tal does this work for you?

>&g= t; Ethan.

>&g= t; 

>&g= t; On Nov 13, 2017, at 3:48 PM, Norman Finn

>&l= t;norman= .finn@mail01.huawei.com<mailto:norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com&= gt;>

>wr= ote:

>&g= t; 

>&g= t; Sounds like Tuesday 16:00.  Right?  Near registration.

>&g= t; 

>&g= t; -- Norm

>&g= t; 

>&g= t; ________________________________

>&g= t; From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com<mailto:eagr= os@dolby.com>]

>&g= t; Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 8:16 PM

>&g= t; To: Das, Subir

>&g= t; Cc: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw); Norman Finn;

>&g= t; draft-ietf-detnet-sec= urity@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-security@<= /span>

>&g= t; ietf.org>; detnet@ietf.org<ma= ilto:detnet@ietf.org>; Gary Weiner

>&g= t; Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up

>&g= t; 

>&g= t; I can do Tuesday 16:00. I have a commitment Tuesday at 18:30.=

>&g= t; Ethan.

>&g= t; 

>&g= t; On Nov 13, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Das, Subir

>&l= t;sdas@appcomsci.com<mailto= :sdas@appcomsci.com>> wrote:

>&g= t; 

>&g= t; I arrived today but can't  make it on Tuesday at 13:30. Available f= rom 16:00.

>&g= t; ________________________________

>&g= t; From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com<mailto:eagr= os@dolby.com>]

>&g= t; Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 10:15 PM

>&g= t; To: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)

>&g= t; Cc: Norman Finn;

>&g= t; draft-ietf-detnet-sec= urity@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-security@<= /span>

>&g= t; ietf.org>; detnet@ietf.org<ma= ilto:detnet@ietf.org>; Gary Weiner

>&g= t; Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up

>&g= t; 

>&g= t; Yes I was agreeing to Tuesday.

>&g= t; Ethan.

>&g= t; 

>&g= t; On Nov 13, 2017, at 10:46 AM, Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)

>&l= t;pwetterw@cisco.com<mailto= :pwetterw@cisco.com>> wrote:

>&g= t; 

>&g= t; On Tuesday. Correct ?

>&g= t; 

>&g= t; Patrick

>&g= t; 

>&g= t; From: detnet <= detnet-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org>>= ;

>&g= t; on behalf of "Grossman, Ethan A."

>&g= t; <eagros@dolby.com<mailto:= eagros@dolby.com>>

>&g= t; Date: Monday, 13 November 2017 at 03:43

>&g= t; To: Norman Finn

>&g= t; 

>&l= t;norman= .finn@mail01.huawei.com<mailto:norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com&= gt;>

>,<= o:p>

>&g= t; "draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-se= curity

>&g= t; @ietf.org>"

>&g= t; <draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-secu= rity

>&g= t; @ietf.org>>

>&g= t; Cc: "detnet@ietf.org<m= ailto:detnet@ietf.org>"

>&g= t; <detnet@ietf.org<mailto:det= net@ietf.org>>, Gary Weiner

>&g= t; <Gary@Apriori-NET.CO= M<mailto:Gary@Apriori-NET.COM>>

>&g= t; Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up

>&g= t; 

>&g= t; Meet at 13:30 at IETF Registration?

>&g= t; Ethan.

>&g= t; 

>&g= t; From: Norman Finn [mailto:norman.finn@mail01= .huawei.com]

>&g= t; Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 4:52 PM

>&g= t; To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagr= os@dolby.com<mailto:eagros@dolby.com>>;

>&g= t; draft-ietf-detnet-sec= urity@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-security@<= /span>

>&g= t; ietf.org>

>&g= t; Cc: Gary Weiner <Gar= y@Apriori-NET.COM<mailto:Gary@Apriori-NET.COM>>;

>&g= t; detnet@ietf.org<ma= ilto:detnet@ietf.org>

>&g= t; Subject: RE: DetNet Security Meet-Up

>&g= t; 

>&g= t; Yes, let's get together.  Right now, any time Tuesday after lunch w= ould be

>fi= ne.

>&g= t; 

>&g= t; -- Norm

>&g= t; ________________________________

>&g= t; From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com<mailto:eagr= os@dolby.com>]

>&g= t; Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:59 AM

>&g= t; To:

>&g= t; draft-ietf-detnet-sec= urity@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-security@<= /span>

>&g= t; ietf.org>

>&g= t; Cc: Gary Weiner; detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@iet= f.org>

>&g= t; Subject: DetNet Security Meet-Up

>&g= t; Hello DetNet Security draft authors, (and adding the DetNet list since

>&g= t; we are now a WG draft and would like to include anyone who has any inter= est),

>Ta= l and I are here in Singapore and would like to know if any of the rest of = you

>mi= ght be here in town and might want to meet up over lunch or dinner (or=

>so= mething) to discuss DetNet security, e.g. next steps for the DetNet Securit= y

>dr= aft. If so, please reply and we can plan something.

>&g= t; Thanks,

>&g= t; Ethan.

>&g= t; Ethan Grossman, DetNet Security Draft editor.

>&g= t; 

>&g= t; _______________________________________________

>&g= t; detnet mailing list

>&g= t; detnet@ietf.org<ma= ilto:detnet@ietf.org>

>&g= t; https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/detnet

>&n= bsp;

>&g= t; _______________________________________________

>&g= t; detnet mailing list

>&g= t; detnet@ietf.org

>&g= t; https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/detnet

>&n= bsp;

>&n= bsp;

>--=

>--= -

>tte@cs.fau.de

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Malis" Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 10:20:40 -0500 Message-ID: To: Stewart Bryant Cc: Mach Chen , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Varga_A?= , DetNet WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1140a7f23b12290562e64717" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:23:26 -0000 --001a1140a7f23b12290562e64717 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stewart, Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be another PW type), targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central controller, NMS, etc.) are alternatives to RSVP and SR to provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW label. You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) case, we need a way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could have a new IP protocol type for DETNET, and a DETNET header directly follows the IP header. In that case, the DETNET header would also need a next protocol identifier, unless the next protocol is always another IP header. Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the identifier. Cheers, Andy On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: > If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer then > we really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one > through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, but we could > introduce the concept, for example by making this the property of the IP > address or some way of MPLSing IP. > > However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our expectation > that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our expectation that at > lest in some networks the data plane is generic with some DN nodes > strategically placed? > > I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers will all b= e > DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most networks we need to desi= gn > for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware. > > - Stewart > > On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote: > > Hi Balazs, > > > > #2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, seem= s > there is no compatibility issue. > > > > In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to differentiate a > DetNet flow from a non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can proces= s > the CW as expected. In TSN, it uses the priority to determine whether a > flow is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the same way > (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself implies the situatio= n, > but it seems that this only works when the DetNet service label is the to= p > label. > > > > Any other thoughts? > > > > Best regards, > > Mach > > > > *From:* detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org ]= *On > Behalf Of *Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A > *Sent:* Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM > *To:* DetNet WG > *Subject:* [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > > > > Hi, > > > > Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft= . > > This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. > > > > Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: > > - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips > zero. > > It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) > > > > Possible problem resolutions: > > #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: > > 0 1 2 3 > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0 | 16 bit Sequence Number | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > D-bit: set to =E2=80=9C1=E2=80=9D means DetNet specific Seq. Number used, > > Bit5-15: reserved. > > > > RFC4448 states that reserved bits =E2=80=9CMUST be ignored upon receipt= =E2=80=9D, so > backward > > compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer > seq.num. > > formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385. > > > > #2: Making =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D as a valid Seq.Num. > > DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet > > domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions > > (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No > > other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its > > own sequence number processing algorithm. So =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D can be a= valid number > > and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with > RFC4385. > > > > #3: Other =E2=80=A6 ?!? > > > > Comments are welcome. > > > > Cheers > > Bala'zs > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org ] > On Behalf Of Lou Berger > Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 10. 19:01 > To: DetNet WG > Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim > > > > is available for download at: > > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3De5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf2023= 01 > > > > raw notes are available at > > http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 > > > > Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording. > > > > Lou (and co-chairs) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing listdetnet@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/d= etnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > --001a1140a7f23b12290562e64717 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Stewart,

Like with PWs (since DETNET fo= r MPLS would just be another PW type), targeted LDP and provisioning (via a= central controller, NMS, etc.) are alternatives to RSVP and SR to provisio= ning/allocating the DETNET PW label.

You and Mach = are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) case, we need a way for the NP to = detect DETNET flows. We could have a new IP protocol type for DETNET, and a= DETNET header directly follows the IP header. In that case, the DETNET hea= der would also need a next protocol identifier, unless the next protocol is= always another IP header.

Of course, for MPLS, th= e DETNET PW label is the identifier.=C2=A0

Cheers,=
Andy


On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer then we really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, but we could introduce the concept, for example by making this the property of the IP address or some way of MPLSing IP.

However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our expectation that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our expectation that at lest in some networks the data plane is generic with some DN nodes strategically placed?

I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers will all be DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most networks we need to design for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware.

- Stewart


On 16/01/2018 01:14= , Mach Chen wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Hi Balazs,

=C2=A0=

#2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, seems there is no compatibility issue.<= /span>

=C2=A0=

In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to differentiate a DetNet flow from a non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can process the CW as expected.=C2=A0 I= n TSN, it uses the priority to determine whether a flow is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the same way (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself implies the situation, but it seems that this only works when the DetNet service label is the top label. =C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0=

Any other thoughts?

=C2=A0=

Best regards,

Mach

=C2=A0=

<= span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-weight:bold">From: detnet [mailto:detne= t-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft.<= u>

This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering.

=C2=A0

Problem in case of MPLS an= d DetNet Control Word:

- S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips zero.

It uses zero to mean no S/= N in use. (rfc4448)

=C2=A0

Possible problem resolutio= ns:

#1: Using a "flag&quo= t; in the reserved bits part of the CW:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3<= /font>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 = 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+-+

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - se= t to 0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0 16 bit Sequence Number=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+-+

D-bit: set to =E2=80=9C1= =E2=80=9D means DetNet specific Seq. Number used,

Bit5-15: reserved.<= u>

=C2=A0

RFC4448 states that reserv= ed bits =E2=80=9CMUST be ignored upon receipt=E2=80=9D, so bac= kward

compatibility is ensured. = Such a solution would allow also to use longer seq.num.

formats (if needed). Such = a format is also inline with RFC4385.

=C2=A0

#2: Making =E2=80=9C0=E2= =80=9D as a valid Seq.Num.

DetNet flows are recognize= d and forwarded special within the DetNet

domain. S/N is used within= the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions

(i.e. PREF). S/N used only= on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No

other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its

own sequence number proces= sing algorithm. So =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D can be a valid number<= /u>

and not the indication tha= t no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with RFC4385.

=C2=A0

#3: Other =E2=80=A6 ?!?=

=C2=A0

Comments are welcome.

=C2=A0

Cheers

Bala'zs<= /span>

=C2=A0

-----Original Message-----=
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger
Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 10. 19:01
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim<= u>

=C2=A0

is available for download = at:

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3De5116bc7db254c24= a7bb3217bf202301

=C2=A0

raw notes are available at

http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-d= etnet-01

=C2=A0

Please feel free to update= the etherpad based on the recording.

=C2=A0

Lou (and co-chairs)=

=C2=A0

__________________________= _____________________

detnet mailing list=

detnet@ietf.org=

https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/detnet



_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/detnet


_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

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[213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k17sm2096929wrf.17.2018.01.16.08.38.24 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Jan 2018 08:38:25 -0800 (PST) To: "Andrew G. Malis" Cc: Mach Chen , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= , DetNet WG References: <0e63108f-2b9e-95b7-57f7-dcc389b8b96f@gmail.com> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 16:38:22 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------32E7F585D03CAEC566609AA1" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 16:38:38 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------32E7F585D03CAEC566609AA1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Andy On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Stewart, > > Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be another PW type), > targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central controller, NMS, etc.) > are alternatives to RSVP and SR to provisioning/allocating the DETNET > PW label. .. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this purpose in VPNs > > You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) case, we need a > way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could have a new IP protocol > type for DETNET, and a DETNET header directly follows the IP header. > In that case, the DETNET header would also need a next protocol > identifier, unless the next protocol is always another IP header. Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP extension header, although I am not a fan of those since (a) I am not confident what a router will do one it does not understand, and (b) I am concerned about the need to support IPv4 which I suspect will have a long tail in enterprise deployment. I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal support through any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers need to look a the UDP DP so checking if it is one they need to work on is just one compare and conditional branch. > > Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the identifier. Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this is sufficient. - Stewart > > Cheers, > Andy > > > On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant > > wrote: > > If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN > layer then we really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, > or synthesize one through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for > this, but we could introduce the concept, for example by making > this the property of the IP address or some way of MPLSing IP. > > However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our > expectation that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our > expectation that at lest in some networks the data plane is > generic with some DN nodes strategically placed? > > I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers > will all be DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most > networks we need to design for the case where only strategic nodes > are DN aware. > > - Stewart > > > On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote: >> >> Hi Balazs, >> >> #2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for >> DetNet, seems there is no compatibility issue. >> >> In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to >> differentiate a DetNet flow from a non-DetNet flow, then the >> network processor can process the CW as expected.  In TSN, it >> uses the priority to determine whether a flow is TSN or non-TSN >> flow. For DetNet, should we also use the same way (e.g., TC, >> DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself implies the situation, >> but it seems that this only works when the DetNet service label >> is the top label. >> >> Any other thoughts? >> >> Best regards, >> >> Mach >> >> *From:* detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org >> ] *On Behalf Of *Balázs Varga A >> *Sent:* Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM >> *To:* DetNet WG >> *Subject:* [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) >> >> Hi, >> >> Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP >> solution draft. >> >> This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. >> >> Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: >> >> - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N >> skips zero. >> >> It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) >> >> Possible problem resolutions: >> >> #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: >> >> 0                   1 2                   3 >> >>       0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 >> >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >> >>      |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0  |   16 bit Sequence >> Number      | >> >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >> >> D-bit: set to “1” means DetNet specific Seq. Number used, >> >> Bit5-15: reserved. >> >> RFC4448 states that reserved bits “MUST be ignored upon receipt”, >> so backward >> >> compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use >> longer seq.num. >> >> formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385. >> >> #2: Making “0” as a valid Seq.Num. >> >> DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet >> >> domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service >> functions >> >> (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet >> relay-nodes. No >> >> other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can >> specify its >> >> own sequence number processing algorithm. So “0” can be a valid >> number >> >> and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline >> with RFC4385. >> >> #3: Other … ?!? >> >> Comments are welcome. >> >> Cheers >> >> Bala'zs >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org >> ] On Behalf Of Lou Berger >> Sent: 2018. január 10. 19:01 >> To: DetNet WG > >> Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim >> >> is available for download at: >> >> https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301 >> >> >> raw notes are available at >> >> http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 >> >> >> Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording. >> >> Lou (and co-chairs) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> detnet mailing list >> >> detnet@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > --------------32E7F585D03CAEC566609AA1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


Andy

On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote:
Stewart,

Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be another PW type), targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central controller, NMS, etc.) are alternatives to RSVP and SR to provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW label.

.. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this purpose in VPNs


You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) case, we need a way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could have a new IP protocol type for DETNET, and a DETNET header directly follows the IP header. In that case, the DETNET header would also need a next protocol identifier, unless the next protocol is always another IP header.

Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP extension header, although I am not a fan of those since (a) I am not confident what a router will do one it does not understand, and (b) I am concerned about the need to support IPv4 which I suspect will have a long tail in enterprise deployment.

I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal support through any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers need to look a the UDP DP so checking if it is one they need to work on is just one compare and conditional branch.


Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the identifier.

Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this is sufficient.

- Stewart
 

Cheers,
Andy


On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:

If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer then we really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, but we could introduce the concept, for example by making this the property of the IP address or some way of MPLSing IP.

However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our expectation that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our expectation that at lest in some networks the data plane is generic with some DN nodes strategically placed?

I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers will all be DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most networks we need to design for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware.

- Stewart

On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote:

Hi Balazs,

 

#2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, seems there is no compatibility issue.

 

In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to differentiate a DetNet flow from a non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can process the CW as expected.  In TSN, it uses the priority to determine whether a flow is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the same way (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself implies the situation, but it seems that this only works when the DetNet service label is the top label.  

 

Any other thoughts?

 

Best regards,

Mach

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Balázs Varga A
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

 

Hi,

 

Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft.

This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering.

 

Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word:

- S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips zero.

It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448)

 

Possible problem resolutions:

#1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW:

      0                   1                   2                   3

      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

     |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0  |   16 bit Sequence Number      |

     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

D-bit: set to “1” means DetNet specific Seq. Number used,

Bit5-15: reserved.

 

RFC4448 states that reserved bits “MUST be ignored upon receipt”, so backward

compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer seq.num.

formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385.

 

#2: Making “0” as a valid Seq.Num.

DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet

domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions

(i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No

other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its

own sequence number processing algorithm. So “0” can be a valid number

and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with RFC4385.

 

#3: Other … ?!?

 

Comments are welcome.

 

Cheers

Bala'zs

 

-----Original Message-----
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger
Sent: 2018. január 10. 19:01
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim

 

is available for download at:

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301

 

raw notes are available at

http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01

 

Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording.

 

Lou (and co-chairs)

 

_______________________________________________

detnet mailing list

detnet@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet



_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet


_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet



--------------32E7F585D03CAEC566609AA1-- From nobody Tue Jan 16 08:49:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 797771315BC for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 08:49:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_SUMOF=5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vZ7hRJe47uz2 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 08:49:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp4.epfl.ch (smtp4.epfl.ch [IPv6:2001:620:618:1e0:1:80b2:e059:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4D9512E039 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 08:49:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 10193 invoked by uid 107); 16 Jan 2018 16:49:40 -0000 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV Received: from icsil1noteb199.epfl.ch (HELO [128.178.151.248]) (128.178.151.248) (TLS, ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (X25519 curve) cipher) (authenticated) by mail.epfl.ch (AngelmatoPhylax SMTP proxy) with ESMTPSA; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 17:49:40 +0100 X-EPFL-Auth: bMOuQv5qxok/z2TyJQVO/3S1rksP975R8pHHeOGPCKXsxy8Ic00= To: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" , "detnet@ietf.org" References: <85a60b00-70ee-308d-22c7-dbd9bf84d618@epfl.ch> From: Le Boudec Jean-Yves Message-ID: <69f7590e-fd30-2534-3824-212503746da5@epfl.ch> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 17:49:40 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4D69B1E06DDD6B73C96CB307" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] End-to-end latency versus per-hop latency bounds X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 16:49:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4D69B1E06DDD6B73C96CB307 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Geng Xuesong consider a path made of two hops. The end-to-end delay bound with per-flow scheduler and leaky bucket constraint at the source is b/R + 2T where b is the burstiness of the flow, R the rate guaranteed to the flow, and T the latency parameter of the rate-latency service curve at each hop (here I assume the two hops offer the same service curve to this flow). the worst case delay bound at the first hop is b/R+T and at the second hop b/R+ (1+r/R) T. the sum of the hop by hop delays is 2b/R +(2+r/R)T the difference is b/R +r/R T b is typically the max number of bits in one interval as given by the detnet T-spec. R is the rate guaranteed to this flow at each hop. Already for 2 hops the difference is significant, the main difference being that the sum of hop by hop delays contains a term 2b/R instead of b/r in the end-to-end bound. If there are k hops, the difference is at least at large as (k-1) b/R. Please don't hesitate to contact me if you'd like us to work on more details of this. JY On 10.01.2018 03:27, Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) wrote: > > Hi JY, > > I have read more material about Networking Calculus, and I think it is > very useful to describe the network unit behavior accurately and make > the worst case end-to-end latency smaller than the sum of worst case > latency of every hop. > > It will be very charming if we can prove the end-to-end latency will > be shorter significantly. And as the author of DetNet YANG module, I > am also very interested in specifying the rate and latency parameters > of a per-flow scheduler; the parameters of the shaping algorithm > based on the method offered by Networking Calculus, as you have > mentioned in the email (In my understanding, most of the parameters of > different queuing management algorithm have been defined in IEEE, > maybe we can make use of them and redefine them in a rigorous > mathematical model ). > > They are all very interesting. If you have further plans about these > topics, please let me in. > > Best Regards, > > Xuesong > > *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Le > Boudec Jean-Yves > *Sent:* Monday, January 08, 2018 8:05 PM > *To:* detnet@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] End-to-end latency versus per-hop latency bounds > > typo correction, sorry -- JY > > Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and > gathered per node, which is NOT sufficient in these cases to find the > worst case end-to-end delay. > > On 08.01.2018 12:00, Le Boudec Jean-Yves wrote: > > There are cases in detnet where the end-to-end latency is less > than the sum of the latencies at every hop: > > - If the detnet nodes uses per-flow scheduling, the worst case > end-to-end queuing delay is less than the sum of the worst case > queuing delays at every hop because all worst cases cannot happen > at the same time (pay burst only once [3]). > > - A similar case arises if the detnet nodes use the Urgency Based > Scheduler defined by IEEE 802.1 TSN for asynchronous traffic > shaping [4]. Here, a packet may be delayed (1) at a switch output > port due to output port queuing and class-based scheduling and (2) > at the next downstream node due to the urgency based scheduler, > which reshapes individual flows in order to avoid cascades of > burstiness increase. The worst case of the sum of the delays at > (1) and (2) is strictly less than the sum of the worst cases of > (1) and (2) this is an instance of reshaping is for free [3]. > > Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and > gathered per node, which is sufficient in these cases to find the > worst case end-to-end delay. If the only information available to > a path computation application is the per-hop latency, then the > computed end-to-end latency bound will be the sum of the per-hop > bounds, which may be much more than the end-to-end latency that > would be computed by a path computation application that would be > aware of the presence of per-flow scheduling or of urgency based > schedulers. Therefore, it seems that these drafts should be > adapted to allow for an accurate computation of the end-to-end > latency. > > [1] draft-finn-bounded-latency > [2] draft-geng-detnet-conf-yang-00 > [3] slides-100-detnet-applicability-of-network-calculus-to-detnet-02 > [4] > http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2015/new-tsn-specht-ubs-queues-0521-v0.pdf > > Best, JY > --------------4D69B1E06DDD6B73C96CB307 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Dear Geng Xuesong

consider a path made of two hops. The end-to-end delay bound with per-flow scheduler and leaky bucket constraint at the source is

b/R + 2T

where b is the burstiness of the flow, R the rate guaranteed to the flow, and T the latency parameter of the rate-latency service curve at each hop (here I assume the two hops offer the same service curve to this flow).

the worst case delay bound at the first hop is b/R+T and at the second hop b/R+ (1+r/R) T.

the sum of the hop by hop delays is

2b/R +(2+r/R)T

the difference is b/R +r/R T

b is typically the max number of bits in one interval as given by the detnet T-spec. R is the rate guaranteed to this flow at each hop. Already for 2 hops the difference is significant, the main difference being that the sum of hop by hop delays contains a term 2b/R instead of b/r in the end-to-end bound. If there are k hops, the difference is at least at large as (k-1) b/R.

Please don't hesitate to contact me if you'd like us to work on more details of this.

JY



On 10.01.2018 03:27, Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) wrote:

Hi JY,

I have read more material about Networking Calculus, and I think it is very useful to describe the network unit behavior accurately and make the worst case end-to-end latency smaller than the sum of worst case latency of every hop.

It will be very charming if we can prove the end-to-end latency will be shorter significantly. And as the author of DetNet YANG module, I am also very interested in specifying the rate and latency parameters of a per-flow scheduler; the parameters of the shaping algorithm based on the method offered by Networking Calculus, as you have mentioned in the email (In my understanding, most of the parameters of different queuing management algorithm have been defined in IEEE, maybe we can make use of them and redefine them in a rigorous mathematical model ).

They are all very interesting. If you have further plans about these topics, please let me in.

Best Regards,

Xuesong

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Le Boudec Jean-Yves
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2018 8:05 PM
To: detnet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] End-to-end latency versus per-hop latency bounds

typo correction, sorry -- JY

Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and gathered per node, which is NOT sufficient in these cases to find the worst case end-to-end delay.

On 08.01.2018 12:00, Le Boudec Jean-Yves wrote:

There are cases in detnet where the end-to-end latency is less than the sum of the latencies at every hop:

- If the detnet nodes uses per-flow scheduling, the worst case end-to-end queuing delay is less than the sum of the worst case queuing delays at every hop because all worst cases cannot happen at the same time (pay burst only once [3]).

- A similar case arises if the detnet nodes use the Urgency Based Scheduler defined by IEEE 802.1 TSN for asynchronous traffic shaping [4]. Here, a packet may be delayed (1) at a switch output port due to output port queuing and class-based scheduling and (2) at the next downstream node due to the urgency based scheduler, which reshapes individual flows in order to avoid cascades of burstiness increase. The worst case of the sum of the delays at (1) and (2) is strictly less than the sum of the worst cases of (1) and (2) this is an instance of reshaping is for free [3].

Now in the drafts [1] and [2] the queuing delays are expressed and gathered per node, which is sufficient in these cases to find the worst case end-to-end delay. If the only information available to a path computation application is the per-hop latency, then the computed end-to-end latency bound will be the sum of the per-hop bounds, which may be much more than the end-to-end latency that would be computed by a path computation application that would be aware of the presence of per-flow scheduling or of urgency based schedulers. Therefore, it seems that these drafts should be adapted to allow for an accurate computation of the end-to-end latency.

[1] draft-finn-bounded-latency
[2] draft-geng-detnet-conf-yang-00
[3] slides-100-detnet-applicability-of-network-calculus-to-detnet-02
[4] http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2015/new-tsn-specht-ubs-queues-0521-v0.pdf

Best, JY


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To: Stewart Bryant , "Andrew G. Malis" CC: DetNet WG , Mach Chen , =?utf-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBWYXJnYSBB?= Thread-Topic: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) Thread-Index: AdON9g9s51ad7oXxQLCexQu8wQXvkQAb0RFQABR8wAAACZKlAAACtrEAAAI8G8A= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 18:03:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0e63108f-2b9e-95b7-57f7-dcc389b8b96f@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=eagros@dolby.com; x-originating-ip: [8.39.141.5] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BN6PR06MB2548; 7:+Zsr8DgT2hU23NVNGkBggfsHLI44MiWe7qd/a5hx4sOS2xrN5t21aasMjt9zWdjOX/5XqzGia121cX63nFgybPTZL1EBu5IAh25m/E1V9QRA49WNKJvD4ge1qBz1Ow9kKls3aBBaDOYfNWeUp7obJqMB3x0udND1wk8nc2DWWToZmjKAcbpj/Ooc5Agj4n3P/DkRuBagpCrmFcfACq+dLNiY1Fs1JiY5gOCbcqVM19siC/ORVVQTLGXhe8uwH1vj x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SSOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 57d8eca8-471b-46e7-7789-08d55d0b81e7 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Malis" CC: DetNet WG , Mach Chen Thread-Topic: DP solution (Flow identification) Thread-Index: AdOO8WeQkUBFFh6eTJW3b2FiGZCbsAABxtAw Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 18:38:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=eagros@dolby.com; x-originating-ip: [8.39.141.5] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BN6PR06MB2547; 7:D6FsZEdmE8uNmu+/+pw9shJTpE3JESfHUH2hwuDBt9nebwkcfpkg7oBwVvPxa5dnLFewMBDlohhQ7ndHZK5uN1uxJJPrDJbdY/a5XtR6YV3KEbbqY6RvViEtE5FUj9kz/1YxsZK4EHvEMh85ILBaxPm7KHpzDVsEEhrVver19hE32q8t5zTTfsz2FlHGKMA8UxCxFfv4DcTB8/F8KkIyn0eLvjwhUIurjMjuX7LX10TKkrw+L55hn3Vk5SafVOsX x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SSOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: e480b58f-6591-43c0-78f1-08d55d105084 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; 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KlSJHiFeWLoF7Xv7dVR9mY1jS+ygwmeFucPfKc6kQYfA9KS+K1kU4a272N2FLdFYtXp82zyGdgatwO8vAET21Q== spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BN6PR06MB2547465921576487DDE548F0C4EA0BN6PR06MB2547namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: dolby.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e480b58f-6591-43c0-78f1-08d55d105084 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Jan 2018 18:38:19.3418 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 05408d25-cd0d-40c8-8962-5462de64a318 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN6PR06MB2547 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 18:38:26 -0000 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[213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z81sm2731210wmc.32.2018.01.16.12.20.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Jan 2018 12:20:46 -0800 (PST) To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= , "Andrew G. Malis" Cc: Mach Chen , DetNet WG References: From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 20:20:50 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------7C8ECDBC8C17A14A2207666A" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 20:20:53 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7C8ECDBC8C17A14A2207666A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 16/01/2018 18:20, Balázs Varga A wrote: > > I think the last mails are more about flow identification and not the > sequence number. > > So, I have re-subjected my answer. > > PSN layer vs. DN layer (MPLS): > > - in current data plane text we have stated that DetNet PWs may use > dedicated LSPs (TE-tunnels). > > That allow to identify DetNet flows in PSN layer without checking the > PW label. Such a solution of > > course may challenge scalability. > Do you mean may, MAY or do you mean MUST? If the plan is to use the PSN label as the payload type indicator that has a number of implications that we need to be clear about. 1) We need a new FEC. 2) We cannot deploy classes of determinism for example that that just need 1+1 and do not care about delay over an existing MPLS PSN. If you think that the LSP label identifies the PW I need to point you at some work in the early days if PW. It does not scale. It does not scale and that is why it never went anywhere as an approach despite initial commercial deployment. > - regarding prioritization: text allows both E-LSP and L-LSP concept, > what makes possible > > to identify DetNet packets. However that is more for simple queuing > scenarios as it does not > > identify individual flows. > I am not sure how much L-LSP is in the wild. L-LSP needs RSVP-TE as far as I can tell, but segment routing puts a new twist on that which I am sure has not yet had full attention. > PSN layer vs. DN layer (non-MPLS): > > - IPv4: If I remember correctly it was discussed to be out-of-scope to > simplify the scenarios we focus on. > > No-one wanted to define new IPv4 fields for flow-ID and Seq-Num in the > “sunset of IPv4”. > There hangs a much bigger story. Some in the IETF want to kill off IPv4, as much as anything to force the introduction of IPv6. However it is not a question of what we want to do it is a question of the needs of the users. > - IPv6: based on the src-IPv6 and the flow-label NP can detect DetNet > flows. Why would we need a new > > IP protocol type? > I am highly sceptical about the flow label given its history. We could use IP address as the payload type, IF we can get the Internet area to agree, but it is a big extension of the IP address semantics, something that perhaps the IETF should consider taking up to the BOF level given the inroads into those semantics that SR is trying to make. > Generic vs. DN aware data plane: > > - I think we need both. We have use-cases specified for both. > > DetNet traffic to be transported: > > - two types are considered: > > (1) Ethernet: IEEE TSN traffic encapsulated in Ethernet frames and > > (2) IP: IPv6 transported over any L2 (not always Ethernet, but most > cases Ethernet) > > As noted above IPv4 is currently out-of-scope … > I am not sure about the IPv4 scoping we need to understand the needs of our users. If however we are carrying IP over PW we will need a shim to give us the type something we looked at a while ago in PWE3 and concluded that the best shim was Ethernet. If we want to carry it in a slightly more compact way we need to have a more complex CW with type and length and possible frag. - Stewart > Cheers > > Bala’zs > > *From:*Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com] > *Sent:* 2018. január 16. 17:38 > *To:* Andrew G. Malis > *Cc:* Mach Chen ; Balázs Varga A > ; DetNet WG > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > > Andy > > On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > Stewart, > > Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be another PW > type), targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central controller, > NMS, etc.) are alternatives to RSVP and SR to > provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW label. > > > .. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this purpose in VPNs > > > You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) case, we > need a way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could have a new > IP protocol type for DETNET, and a DETNET header directly follows > the IP header. In that case, the DETNET header would also need a > next protocol identifier, unless the next protocol is always > another IP header. > > > Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP extension > header, although I am not a fan of those since (a) I am not confident > what a router will do one it does not understand, and (b) I am > concerned about the need to support IPv4 which I suspect will have a > long tail in enterprise deployment. > > I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal support > through any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers need to look a > the UDP DP so checking if it is one they need to work on is just one > compare and conditional branch. > > > Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the identifier. > > > Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this is sufficient. > > - Stewart > > > Cheers, > > Andy > > On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant > > wrote: > > If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN > layer then we really are forced to create a new FEC type for > MPLS, or synthesize one through RSVP or SR. IP has no native > support for this, but we could introduce the concept, for > example by making this the property of the IP address or some > way of MPLSing IP. > > However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our > expectation that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is > our expectation that at lest in some networks the data plane > is generic with some DN nodes strategically placed? > > I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers > will all be DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most > networks we need to design for the case where only strategic > nodes are DN aware. > > - Stewart > > On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote: > > Hi Balazs, > > #2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated > for DetNet, seems there is no compatibility issue. > > In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to > differentiate a DetNet flow from a non-DetNet flow, then > the network processor can process the CW as expected. In > TSN, it uses the priority to determine whether a flow is > TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the > same way (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label > itself implies the situation, but it seems that this only > works when the DetNet service label is the top label. > > Any other thoughts? > > Best regards, > > Mach > > *From:* detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf > Of *Balázs Varga A > *Sent:* Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM > *To:* DetNet WG > *Subject:* [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > > Hi, > > Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP > solution draft. > > This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. > > Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: > > - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states > that S/N skips zero. > > It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) > > Possible problem resolutions: > > #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: > > 0                   1 2                   3 > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 > 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0  |   16 bit Sequence > Number      | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > D-bit: set to “1” means DetNet specific Seq. Number used, > > Bit5-15: reserved. > > RFC4448 states that reserved bits “MUST be ignored upon > receipt”, so backward > > compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also > to use longer seq.num. > > formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with > RFC4385. > > #2: Making “0” as a valid Seq.Num. > > DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within > the DetNet > > domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet > Service functions > > (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet > relay-nodes. No > > other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet > can specify its > > own sequence number processing algorithm. So “0” can be a > valid number > > and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is > inline with RFC4385. > > #3: Other … ?!? > > Comments are welcome. > > Cheers > > Bala'zs > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Lou Berger > Sent: 2018. január 10. 19:01 > To: DetNet WG > > Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim > > is available for download at: > > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301 > > raw notes are available at > > http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 > > Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the > recording. > > Lou (and co-chairs) > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --------------7C8ECDBC8C17A14A2207666A Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit



On 16/01/2018 18:20, Balázs Varga A wrote:

I think the last mails are more about flow identification and not the sequence number.

So, I have re-subjected my answer.

 

PSN layer vs. DN layer (MPLS):

- in current data plane text we have stated that DetNet PWs may use dedicated LSPs (TE-tunnels).

That allow to identify DetNet flows in PSN layer without checking the PW label. Such a solution of

course may challenge scalability.


Do you mean may, MAY or do you mean MUST?

If the plan is to use the PSN label as the payload type indicator that has a number of implications that we need to be clear about.

1) We need a new FEC.

2) We cannot deploy classes of determinism for example that that just need 1+1 and do not care about delay over an existing MPLS PSN.

If you think that the LSP label identifies the PW I need to point you at some work in the early days if PW. It does not scale.
It does not scale and that is why it never went anywhere as an approach despite initial commercial deployment.

- regarding prioritization: text allows both E-LSP and L-LSP concept, what makes possible

to identify DetNet packets. However that is more for simple queuing scenarios as it does not

identify individual flows.


I am not sure how much L-LSP is in the wild. L-LSP needs RSVP-TE as far as I can tell, but
segment routing puts a new twist on that which I am sure has not yet had full attention.

 

PSN layer vs. DN layer (non-MPLS):

- IPv4: If I remember correctly it was discussed to be out-of-scope to simplify the scenarios we focus on.

No-one wanted to define new IPv4 fields for flow-ID and Seq-Num in the “sunset of IPv4”.


There hangs a much bigger story. Some in the IETF want to kill off IPv4, as much as anything
to force the introduction of IPv6. However it is not a question of what we want to do
it is a question of the needs of the users.

- IPv6: based on the src-IPv6 and the flow-label NP can detect DetNet flows. Why would we need a new

IP protocol type?


I am highly sceptical about the flow label given its history.

We could use IP address as the payload type, IF we can get the Internet area to agree, but it
is a big extension of the IP address semantics, something that perhaps the IETF should
consider taking up to the BOF level given the inroads into those semantics that SR is
trying to make.

 

Generic vs. DN aware data plane:

- I think we need both. We have use-cases specified for both.


 

DetNet traffic to be transported:

- two types are considered:

(1) Ethernet: IEEE TSN traffic encapsulated in Ethernet frames and

(2) IP: IPv6 transported over any L2 (not always Ethernet, but most cases Ethernet)

As noted above IPv4 is currently out-of-scope …


I am not sure about the IPv4 scoping we need to understand the needs of our users.

If however we are carrying IP over PW we will need a shim to give us the type
something we looked at a while ago in PWE3 and concluded that the best shim
was Ethernet. If we want to carry it in a slightly more compact way we need
to have a more complex CW with type and length and possible frag.

- Stewart

 

Cheers

Bala’zs

 

From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: 2018. január 16. 17:38
To: Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>; Balázs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

 

 

Andy

On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote:

Stewart,

 

Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be another PW type), targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central controller, NMS, etc.) are alternatives to RSVP and SR to provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW label.


.. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this purpose in VPNs


 

You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) case, we need a way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could have a new IP protocol type for DETNET, and a DETNET header directly follows the IP header. In that case, the DETNET header would also need a next protocol identifier, unless the next protocol is always another IP header.


Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP extension header, although I am not a fan of those since (a) I am not confident what a router will do one it does not understand, and (b) I am concerned about the need to support IPv4 which I suspect will have a long tail in enterprise deployment.

I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal support through any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers need to look a the UDP DP so checking if it is one they need to work on is just one compare and conditional branch.


 

Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the identifier.


Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this is sufficient.

- Stewart
 

 

Cheers,

Andy

 

 

On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:

If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer then we really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, but we could introduce the concept, for example by making this the property of the IP address or some way of MPLSing IP.

However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our expectation that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our expectation that at lest in some networks the data plane is generic with some DN nodes strategically placed?

I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers will all be DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most networks we need to design for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware.

- Stewart

 

On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote:

Hi Balazs,

 

#2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, seems there is no compatibility issue.

 

In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to differentiate a DetNet flow from a non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can process the CW as expected.  In TSN, it uses the priority to determine whether a flow is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the same way (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself implies the situation, but it seems that this only works when the DetNet service label is the top label.  

 

Any other thoughts?

 

Best regards,

Mach

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Balázs Varga A
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

 

Hi,

 

Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft.

This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering.

 

Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word:

- S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips zero.

It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448)

 

Possible problem resolutions:

#1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW:

      0                   1                   2                   3

      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

     |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0  |   16 bit Sequence Number      |

     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

D-bit: set to “1” means DetNet specific Seq. Number used,

Bit5-15: reserved.

 

RFC4448 states that reserved bits “MUST be ignored upon receipt”, so backward

compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer seq.num.

formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385.

 

#2: Making “0” as a valid Seq.Num.

DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet

domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions

(i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No

other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its

own sequence number processing algorithm. So “0” can be a valid number

and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with RFC4385.

 

#3: Other … ?!?

 

Comments are welcome.

 

Cheers

Bala'zs

 

-----Original Message-----
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger
Sent: 2018. január 10. 19:01
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim

 

is available for download at:

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301

 

raw notes are available at

http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01

 

Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording.

 

Lou (and co-chairs)

 

_______________________________________________

detnet mailing list

detnet@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet



_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 


_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 

 


--------------7C8ECDBC8C17A14A2207666A-- From nobody Tue Jan 16 15:05:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B10312EB8B for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:05:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vypliqeOQHC8 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:05:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf0-x230.google.com (mail-lf0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 989D112EB88 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:05:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf0-x230.google.com with SMTP id t139so4711461lff.0 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:05:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Gam+GqHCB2iaTCi7f0HcvZq1QII3kxDPG71FVKn43/Q=; b=i3EVw0zQT5bmNVTYZyXX7cybpqYl66cz38kstTZwnaqoiHSjPaWoCB3l/osXhNunna ZytmepN3wVpaekQ/z9PVto9q1mNdx9Z0sU9rzXMpYnmzE4pt6aSUDZBYo66YiALS3XQE ydH5+QMxOkdelvlZr2Z/gq/upDyVpcy6pY1ThakpOWnkAbKu0UYUNiHSyNr34sIcpDuu 4nHJUwod6fNA8oLtU7A7SVvr6TgXYJpGyVHWP/HzhD8AOvlrfJ9wg6ZZtjDklD1PeQE8 U4gkT4Irnl+jrrDhvfUabSe/hTHsOtDD9eCym6Xl0qn3mVZSShtviC6fWcFYKakQFGUg 4PCg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Gam+GqHCB2iaTCi7f0HcvZq1QII3kxDPG71FVKn43/Q=; b=qkv/922CzSREwp69ou2NNaiwQ50j3vI2DCl9/5OqtrZ6XA5FSwWOMlVK3TTVxhfdgd EEp1Fpo46LcZ2jT+uZuBflQyYX5uJdsV+ReqLiHl/O8msaPhmKBOZljGUFc9tqHEhg65 RIdXBAJL3s+WTcGDaLxRVJszsUm2DMqHcFNsv8y2hcWPTRHB+poGy1MXVSR8Ss58N2z8 NfG/sUhoeJ4Kn7mNMGoOpUs/GU0y28V5wZY2YNHer8nmJj7p+FXR9K0x7WcFnTNBDttY vMF/wAEwxkcfkyizu2m+fECCJl/esgTofhqChiJY07xOzJYRSHIlNf3MzVHqBjvFF9RA Je/w== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytcBK8sdlYvEggvF9JdiHbQ3tAjt4stSG2+mqeK3uH2llMjdBQ/Y a1tQL95uiX4fEvQdyhKqcTk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBotEZ8AmMLjv1cdtPAOP8stnRKppU6bbCGq+7s93babMarirSqWLyjgITuaA8XcXTux1gnlVCA== X-Received: by 10.46.34.130 with SMTP id i124mr13150248lji.108.1516143937667; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from jounis-imac.home ([83.150.126.201]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h97sm591985lji.77.2018.01.16.15.05.36 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:05:36 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Jouni In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 01:05:34 +0200 Cc: Stewart Bryant , "Andrew G. Malis" , DetNet WG , Mach Chen , =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Varga_A?= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0A978245-C70D-4938-B03D-EAA1F4BE5CF3@gmail.com> References: <0e63108f-2b9e-95b7-57f7-dcc389b8b96f@gmail.com> To: "Grossman, Ethan A." X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 23:05:42 -0000 > On 16 Jan 2018, at 20:03, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: >=20 > Just a couple of my thoughts: > 1) Regarding whether every node in the network is required to be = DetNet aware, I was assuming that it would be like AVB/TSN, in which you = can only make a stream reservation through a path of nodes that are TSN = aware, and traffic that had to cross non-aware nodes would have to be = treated as non-TSN traffic, i.e. some packets could get dropped and = there would not be timing guarantees, but at least they wouldn=E2=80=99t = be dropped wholesale due to massive protocol incompatibility. Is that = the expectation here or is there a significant difference? This is (still) my understanding of the scope. My expectation is that = there is no difference for DetNEt traffic. - Jouni > 2) I agree that we need to have some kind of strategy for = supporting IPv4, for example providing at least DetNet-type delay and = jitter bounds, even if it had some limitations compared to MPLS/IPv6 = (e.g. no PREF and thus limited reliability). > =20 > Ethan. > =20 > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart = Bryant > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 8:38 AM > To: Andrew G. Malis > Cc: DetNet WG ; Mach Chen ; = Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A > Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > =20 > =20 >=20 > Andy >=20 > On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Stewart,=20 > =20 > Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be another PW type), = targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central controller, NMS, etc.) are = alternatives to RSVP and SR to provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW = label. >=20 > .. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this purpose in = VPNs >=20 >=20 > =20 > You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) case, we need a = way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could have a new IP protocol = type for DETNET, and a DETNET header directly follows the IP header. In = that case, the DETNET header would also need a next protocol identifier, = unless the next protocol is always another IP header. >=20 > Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP extension = header, although I am not a fan of those since (a) I am not confident = what a router will do one it does not understand, and (b) I am concerned = about the need to support IPv4 which I suspect will have a long tail in = enterprise deployment. >=20 > I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal support = through any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers need to look a the = UDP DP so checking if it is one they need to work on is just one compare = and conditional branch. >=20 >=20 > =20 > Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the identifier.=20 >=20 > Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this is = sufficient. >=20 > - Stewart > =20 >=20 > =20 > Cheers, > Andy > =20 > =20 > On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant = wrote: > If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer = then we really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or = synthesize one through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, = but we could introduce the concept, for example by making this the = property of the IP address or some way of MPLSing IP. >=20 > However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our = expectation that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our = expectation that at lest in some networks the data plane is generic with = some DN nodes strategically placed? >=20 > I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers will = all be DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most networks we need = to design for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware. >=20 > - Stewart >=20 > =20 > On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote: > Hi Balazs, > =20 > #2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, = seems there is no compatibility issue. > =20 > In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to differentiate a = DetNet flow from a non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can = process the CW as expected. In TSN, it uses the priority to determine = whether a flow is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use = the same way (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself = implies the situation, but it seems that this only works when the DetNet = service label is the top label. =20 > =20 > Any other thoughts? > =20 > Best regards, > Mach > =20 > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bal=C3=A1zs = Varga A > Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM > To: DetNet WG > Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > =20 > Hi, >=20 > =20 >=20 > Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution = draft. >=20 > This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: >=20 > - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips = zero. >=20 > It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) >=20 > =20 >=20 > Possible problem resolutions: >=20 > #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: >=20 > 0 1 2 3 >=20 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 >=20 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >=20 > |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0 | 16 bit Sequence Number | >=20 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >=20 > D-bit: set to =E2=80=9C1=E2=80=9D means DetNet specific Seq. Number = used, >=20 > Bit5-15: reserved. >=20 > =20 >=20 > RFC4448 states that reserved bits =E2=80=9CMUST be ignored upon = receipt=E2=80=9D, so backward >=20 > compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use = longer seq.num. >=20 > formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385. >=20 > =20 >=20 > #2: Making =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D as a valid Seq.Num. >=20 > DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet >=20 > domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service = functions >=20 > (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. = No >=20 > other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify = its >=20 > own sequence number processing algorithm. So =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D can = be a valid number >=20 > and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with = RFC4385. >=20 > =20 >=20 > #3: Other =E2=80=A6 ?!? >=20 > =20 >=20 > Comments are welcome. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Bala'zs >=20 > =20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger > Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 10. 19:01 > To: DetNet WG > Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim >=20 > =20 >=20 > is available for download at: >=20 > = https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3De5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf20230= 1 >=20 > =20 >=20 > raw notes are available at >=20 > = http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Lou (and co-chairs) >=20 > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ >=20 > detnet mailing list >=20 > detnet@ietf.org >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >=20 > =20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Tue Jan 16 15:23:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25F3612EBAE for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:23:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5q9h33JXx_o9 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:23:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf0-x22f.google.com (mail-lf0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3298E12EB7D for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:23:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id f3so19544189lfe.4 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:23:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=1pb0TUxmHuO26uVel+5d7AHvHrM1QgYLKDJnWr7gaxQ=; b=bLzLAUZoJf1EHZh4fBKxFoZV3DKZcEhmCLIjNjA2+yTAvcAerMyQ3obAhnxb6muHBF K1h++5tzn/STowi4vARlgfSzSaZzFUOWkJQPsy46y2ewct9BExGoZjESS7fLG6cd8bw7 rChbs/7JSzc6jJBfj0XXuNWI+c5YfNDOh1EiATNe3u8ob7tPBYJpDauGuOeSLoaQPvoU sYbW2cSjQxieiEeIDyAdzDzfAooAc/IFb0DjpBHRtmzIoDYw2TRW6IOPOXo1suoPiDRN cSjFeHHXtMEOk2FId07neHmETdrMkvaKuKCTd+7c1KVqsk5KT/ry0FFXHtyUPsBR19C2 4vXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=1pb0TUxmHuO26uVel+5d7AHvHrM1QgYLKDJnWr7gaxQ=; b=kAOtcZoo9ifUdS/1slkHBMz0LgDk4zL7+DYTXC5Qi6/582hpGftUsbndF1JjP6EOlz n3ifbylBiOgECMp3/qmiK0oKCLnZ4P6BrLh0AP+a1J5KT8s/C0qZcNqxyEfHe2G+zj4W LfPn7qrWIE9pc1O+ddo6uvrT01HPUM0Zp2s4yvUQVuW8UXRaRaw5goi7RaLx2RGJ5bfP mXJXsiWp9ZrCnPcrw298ZBjkGshPme/Faj/AQk/tHoc4QtIs9nZbfXh2Eekl0WK4E0rw pzooFy6tzD1fdfBhRtzR5kcTxwt+Dd6KixY+A893e6WzxqLDTEyyROvsZ1IYN27w2UpT Saew== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mKxbsS1eUpOR7gpb/uARiDC+QOt60JSnSubF3bRqSA85YMiIHjR ScDUpj+JDFFYsCm85lx/CwI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBouHD+Hamn040xciY4rPXNu1ppd16wxJh5UV3gvNMTBGbB4DqzWND8fmhSlq7U8y73OvV+wCkw== X-Received: by 10.46.1.33 with SMTP id 33mr19319001ljb.128.1516145023354; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:23:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from jounis-imac.home ([83.150.126.201]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f3sm215425lja.63.2018.01.16.15.23.42 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:23:42 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Jouni In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 01:23:41 +0200 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Varga_A?= , "Andrew G. Malis" , DetNet WG , Mach Chen Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9659DA03-428A-4777-B084-6074652C9C06@gmail.com> References: To: Stewart Bryant X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 23:23:48 -0000 > On 16 Jan 2018, at 22:20, Stewart Bryant = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 16/01/2018 18:20, Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A wrote: >> I think the last mails are more about flow identification and not the = sequence number. >> So, I have re-subjected my answer. >> =20 >> PSN layer vs. DN layer (MPLS): >> - in current data plane text we have stated that DetNet PWs may use = dedicated LSPs (TE-tunnels). >> That allow to identify DetNet flows in PSN layer without checking the = PW label. Such a solution of >> course may challenge scalability. >=20 > Do you mean may, MAY or do you mean MUST? >=20 > If the plan is to use the PSN label as the payload type indicator that = has a number of implications that we need to be clear about. By payload you mean the DetNet flows over an LSP that have specific = queuing/forwarding treatment? > 1) We need a new FEC.=20 Would there be a problem to introduce a new FEC? > 2) We cannot deploy classes of determinism for example that that just = need 1+1 and do not care about delay over an existing MPLS PSN. Could you rephrase the above?=20 > If you think that the LSP label identifies the PW I need to point you = at some work in the early days if PW. It does not scale.=20 > It does not scale and that is why it never went anywhere as an = approach despite initial commercial deployment. LSP label referred here is here the top label? - Jouni >=20 >> - regarding prioritization: text allows both E-LSP and L-LSP concept, = what makes possible >> to identify DetNet packets. However that is more for simple queuing = scenarios as it does not >> identify individual flows.=20 >=20 > I am not sure how much L-LSP is in the wild. L-LSP needs RSVP-TE as = far as I can tell, but=20 > segment routing puts a new twist on that which I am sure has not yet = had full attention.=20 >=20 >> =20 >> PSN layer vs. DN layer (non-MPLS): >> - IPv4: If I remember correctly it was discussed to be out-of-scope = to simplify the scenarios we focus on. >> No-one wanted to define new IPv4 fields for flow-ID and Seq-Num in = the =E2=80=9Csunset of IPv4=E2=80=9D. >=20 > There hangs a much bigger story. Some in the IETF want to kill off = IPv4, as much as anything > to force the introduction of IPv6. However it is not a question of = what we want to do > it is a question of the needs of the users.=20 >=20 >> - IPv6: based on the src-IPv6 and the flow-label NP can detect DetNet = flows. Why would we need a new >> IP protocol type?=20 >=20 > I am highly sceptical about the flow label given its history.=20 >=20 > We could use IP address as the payload type, IF we can get the = Internet area to agree, but it > is a big extension of the IP address semantics, something that perhaps = the IETF should > consider taking up to the BOF level given the inroads into those = semantics that SR is > trying to make. >=20 >> =20 >> Generic vs. DN aware data plane: >> - I think we need both. We have use-cases specified for both. >=20 >> =20 >> DetNet traffic to be transported: >> - two types are considered:=20 >> (1) Ethernet: IEEE TSN traffic encapsulated in Ethernet frames and >> (2) IP: IPv6 transported over any L2 (not always Ethernet, but most = cases Ethernet) >> As noted above IPv4 is currently out-of-scope =E2=80=A6 >=20 > I am not sure about the IPv4 scoping we need to understand the needs = of our users. >=20 > If however we are carrying IP over PW we will need a shim to give us = the type > something we looked at a while ago in PWE3 and concluded that the best = shim > was Ethernet. If we want to carry it in a slightly more compact way we = need > to have a more complex CW with type and length and possible frag. >=20 > - Stewart >=20 >> =20 >> Cheers >> Bala=E2=80=99zs >> =20 >> From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]=20 >> Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 16. 17:38 >> To: Andrew G. Malis >> Cc: Mach Chen ; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A = ; DetNet WG >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) >> =20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Andy >>=20 >> On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >> Stewart,=20 >> =20 >> Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be another PW type), = targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central controller, NMS, etc.) are = alternatives to RSVP and SR to provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW = label. >>=20 >> .. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this purpose in = VPNs >>=20 >>=20 >> =20 >> You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) case, we need a = way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could have a new IP protocol = type for DETNET, and a DETNET header directly follows the IP header. In = that case, the DETNET header would also need a next protocol identifier, = unless the next protocol is always another IP header. >>=20 >> Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP extension = header, although I am not a fan of those since (a) I am not confident = what a router will do one it does not understand, and (b) I am concerned = about the need to support IPv4 which I suspect will have a long tail in = enterprise deployment. >>=20 >> I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal support = through any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers need to look a the = UDP DP so checking if it is one they need to work on is just one compare = and conditional branch. >>=20 >>=20 >> =20 >> Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the identifier.=20 >>=20 >> Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this is = sufficient. >>=20 >> - Stewart >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >> Cheers, >> Andy >> =20 >> =20 >> On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant = wrote: >> If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer = then we really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or = synthesize one through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, = but we could introduce the concept, for example by making this the = property of the IP address or some way of MPLSing IP. >>=20 >> However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our = expectation that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our = expectation that at lest in some networks the data plane is generic with = some DN nodes strategically placed? >>=20 >> I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers will = all be DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most networks we need = to design for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware. >>=20 >> - Stewart >>=20 >> =20 >> On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote: >> Hi Balazs, >> =20 >> #2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, = seems there is no compatibility issue. >> =20 >> In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to differentiate = a DetNet flow from a non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can = process the CW as expected. In TSN, it uses the priority to determine = whether a flow is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use = the same way (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself = implies the situation, but it seems that this only works when the DetNet = service label is the top label. =20 >> =20 >> Any other thoughts? >> =20 >> Best regards, >> Mach >> =20 >> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bal=C3=A1zs = Varga A >> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM >> To: DetNet WG >> Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) >> =20 >> Hi, >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution = draft. >>=20 >> This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: >>=20 >> - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N = skips zero. >>=20 >> It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Possible problem resolutions: >>=20 >> #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: >>=20 >> 0 1 2 3 >>=20 >> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 >>=20 >> = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >>=20 >> |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0 | 16 bit Sequence Number = | >>=20 >> = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >>=20 >> D-bit: set to =E2=80=9C1=E2=80=9D means DetNet specific Seq. Number = used, >>=20 >> Bit5-15: reserved. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> RFC4448 states that reserved bits =E2=80=9CMUST be ignored upon = receipt=E2=80=9D, so backward >>=20 >> compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use = longer seq.num. >>=20 >> formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> #2: Making =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D as a valid Seq.Num. >>=20 >> DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet >>=20 >> domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service = functions >>=20 >> (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet = relay-nodes. No >>=20 >> other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify = its >>=20 >> own sequence number processing algorithm. So =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D can = be a valid number >>=20 >> and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with = RFC4385. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> #3: Other =E2=80=A6 ?!? >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Comments are welcome. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Cheers >>=20 >> Bala'zs >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger >> Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 10. 19:01 >> To: DetNet WG >> Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> is available for download at:=20 >>=20 >> = https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3De5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf20230= 1 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> raw notes are available at=20 >>=20 >> = http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Lou (and co-chairs) >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >>=20 >> detnet mailing list >>=20 >> detnet@ietf.org >>=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> =20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>=20 >> =20 >> =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Tue Jan 16 17:29:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 249EC12EBE4 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 17:29:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yD0jMGcd8Cal for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 17:29:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 436E012D7E7 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 17:29:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 4B89DFFF1F167; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 01:29:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMA402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.43) by lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.47) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.361.1; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 01:29:44 +0000 Received: from DGGEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.171]) by DGGEMA402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.43]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 09:29:31 +0800 From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" To: "Flinck, Hannu (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" , Toerless Eckert , Greg Mirsky , Alexandre Petrescu , "detnet@ietf.org" CC: "Grossman, Ethan A." , Norman Finn , Mach Chen Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases & slices suggestions Thread-Index: AQHTXouCnOES7TjcIkSI7Vuob/v/M6NjPDvggBMC7gCAAWObEA== Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 01:29:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20171116033202.GX19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.169.123] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C089661F7DGGEMA501MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases & slices suggestions X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 01:29:53 -0000 --_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C089661F7DGGEMA501MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1258" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Hannu, Thank you for your review, and what you have mentioned in the email is very= important for understanding this use case. If you notice that there is a statement =935G bearer uses DetNet to have ha= rd resource isolation across slices and within the slice=94 before the exam= ple you have mentioned, maybe you can find that this paragraph is intended to illustrate how DetNet can o= ffer resource isolation across slices. I think if there are only URLLC services in Slice-A and Slice-B, DetNet can= separate the slices directly; if there are also non-URLLC services, DetNet= can separate the URLLC service from different slices rather than separate = the slices. The assumption here is that non-URLLC services don=92t need DetNet-level tr= ansmission quality, so non-URLLC services can=92t be separated by DetNet. If you think this part of text is not clear enough , I can add more explana= tions to avoid confusion. Best Regards, Xuesong From: Flinck, Hannu (Nokia - FI/Espoo) [mailto:hannu.flinck@nokia-bell-labs= .com] Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 7:57 PM To: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong); Toerless Eckert; Greg Mirsky; Alexandre Pet= rescu; detnet@ietf.org Cc: Grossman, Ethan A.; Norman Finn; Mach Chen Subject: RE: draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases & slices suggestions Hello Xuesong I am wondering if this part of the text is correct: =93For example, there are two slices in the network: Slice-A and Slice-B; D= etNet is used to transit URLLC services: URLLC-A and URLLC-B. Without DetNe= t, URLLC-A and URLLC-B compete for bandwidth resource. Latency and reliability= is not guaranteed; With DetNet, URLLC-A and URLLC-B have separate bandwidth reservation and there is no confliction between them, just as the= y are in different logical networks. =93 Or did you mean to say that (DetNet -> slice): Without slicing URLLC-A and URLLC-B compete for bandwidth resource. Latency= and reliability is not guaranteed; With silicing, URLLC-A and URLLC-B have= separate bandwidth reservation and there is no confliction between them, just as the= y are in different logical networks. Best regards Hannu From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gengxuesong (Gen= g Xuesong) Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 3:52 AM To: Toerless Eckert >; Greg Mirsky >; Alexandre Petrescu >; detnet@ietf= .org Cc: Grossman, Ethan A. >; Norman = Finn >;= Mach Chen > Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases & slices suggestions Hi Toerless, Thank you for your comments. They are very useful. Here is the revised text of Network Slicing Use Case. You can find some of = your suggested words are added into it, which have been highlighted. I hope perhaps Greg and Alex can also be satisfied with this version , beca= use a paragraph tries to respond to your comments about adding other use ca= ses mentioned in 3GPP . I have highlighted them too. This is open to discuss. Any other comments are welcome. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------- 10. Network Slicing 10.1. Use Case Description Network slicing divides one physical network infrastructure into multiple l= ogical networks. Each slice, corresponding to a logical network, uses resources and network functions independently from each other. Network= slicing provides flexibility of resource allocation and service quality customization. Future services will demand network performance with= a wide variety of characteristics such as high data rate, low latency, low loss rate, security and many other parameters. Ideally every s= ervice would have its own physical network satisfying its particular performance requirements; however that would be prohibitively expensive. Ne= twork slicing can provide a customized slice for a single service, and multiple slices can share the same physical network. This method can op= timize the performance for the service at lower cost, and the flexibility of setting up and release the slices also allows the user to al= locate the network resources dynamically. Unlike other DetNet use cases, Network slicing is not a specific application with specific deterministic r= equirements; it is proposed as a new requirement for the future network, which is still in discussion, and DetNet is a candidate solution for it. 10.2 Using DetNet in Network Slicing 10.2.1 Hard resource isolation across slices One of the requirements discussed for network slicing is the "hard" separat= ion of various users=92 deterministic performance. That is, it should be impossible for activity, lack of activity, or changes in activity of one= or more users to have any appreciable effect on the deterministic performance parameters of any other slices. Typical techniques used today, = which share a physical network among users, do not offer this kind of insulation. DetNet can supply point-to-point or point-to-multipoint= paths that offer bandwidth and latency guarantees to a user that cannot be affected by other users=92 data traffic. Thus DetNet is a powerfu= l tool when latency and reliability are required in Network Slicing. 10.2.2 Deterministic services within slices Slices need to be able to provide services that require DetNet type guarant= ees. Technically, DetNet in Network Slicing can be used just the same as DetNet without Network Slicing.(from Toerless) 10.3 Network Slicing Use Case Network Slicing is a core feature of 5G defined in 3GPP, which is currently= under development. A Network Slice in mobile network is a complete logical network including Radio Access Network (RAN) and Core Network (CN).= It provides telecommunication services and network capabilities, which may vary (or not) from slice to slice. A 5G bearer network is a typic= al use case of network slicing, including 3 service scenarios: enhanced Mobile Broadband (eMBB), Ultra-Reliable and Low Latency Communications (URL= LC), and massive Machine Type Communications (mMTC). Each of these are described below. =95 Enhanced Mobile Broadband (eMBB) eMBB focuses on services characterized by high data rates, such as high def= inition (HD) videos, virtual reality (VR), augmented reality (AR), and fixed mobile convergence (FMC). =95 Ultra-Reliable and Low Latency Communications (URLLC) URLLC focuses on latency-sensitive services, such as self-driving vehicles,= remote surgery, or drone control. =95 massive Machine Type Communications (mMTC) mMTC focuses on services that have high requirements for connection density= , such as those typical for smart city and smart agriculture use cases. 5G bearer uses DetNet to have hard resource isolation across slices and wit= hin the slice. For example, there are two slices in the network: Slice-A and Slice-B; DetN= et is used to transit URLLC services: URLLC-A and URLLC-B. Without DetNet, URLLC-A and URLLC-B compete for bandwidth resource. Latency and reliability= is not guaranteed; With DetNet, URLLC-A and URLLC-B have separate bandwidth reservation and there is no confliction between them, just as the= y are in different logical networks. Even though not necessary within the scope of work explicitly charted for s= lices in 5G: Whenever 5G or other network service providers see the opportunity to operate services described as use-cases in other sections of= this document across a shared physical infrastructure, network slices woul= d be the likely preferred approach to provide such services. Examples include= providing electrical utilities services (section 3.), pro audio services (section 2.) or V2X via slices. Use cases like these could become = more into the focus for network slices when the work for 5G core network ev= olution will include services that are more inclusive of even wired access options = required in those use-cases. ( part from Toerless and the highlighted text answers the question of Greg = and Alex) However, DetNet cannot cover every Network Slicing use case, and there are = some other problems to be solved. Firstly, DetNet is a point-to-point or point-to-multipoint technology while Network Slicing needs multi-point to m= ulti-point guarantee. Second, the number of flows that can be carried by DetNet is limited by DetNet scalability. Flow aggregation and queuing manag= ement modification may help to fix the problem. More work and discussions are needed in these topics. 10.4 Network Slicing Today and Future Network slicing can satisfy the requirements of a lot of future deployment = scenario, but it is still a collection of ideas and analysis, without a spe= cific technical solution. A lot of technologies, such as Flex-E, Segment Routing,= and DetNet have potential to be used in Network Slicing. For more details please see IETF99 Network Slicing BOF session agenda and materials. 10.5. Network Slicing Asks =95 Isolation from other flows through Queuing Management =95 Service Quality Customization and Guarantee =95 Security ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------- Best Regards Xuesong >-----Original Message----- >From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:tte@cs.fau.de] >Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 11:32 AM >To: detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases@i= etf.org >Subject: draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases & slices suggestions > >Wrt to my comments on the mike@singapore re. slicing use-case: > >First of all i would like to reinforce Stewarts statement that we should n= ot >remove slicing from the use-case draft. My point was different: making the >importance for detnet in slicing clearer - because i think it is hierarchi= cal and >multi-faceted, and that does not well reflect in the current text. > >Following suggestions for improvements aside, the existing text of 10. is = already >very nicely enlightening about slices, more so than i have seen in other p= laces. > >A) I would not call 10.1 "Use Case Description" but instead "Technology >Description" > >B) 10.3 up to the the "However" is IMHO the most fundamental use-case for >detnet > in the slicing realm. It should be moved and become e.g.: a new 10.2.1 >use-case, > here is proposed changed paragraphs: > > 10.2.1 Hard resource isolation across slices > > |Network slicing aims to provide logical networks with hard resource > |separation guarantees between those different logical networks. > |Hard resource separation means that it should be impossible for activit= y, > |lack of activity, or changes in activity of one or more slices to have > |any appreciable effect on the deterministic performance parameters of a= ny > |other slices. > > |Typical techniques used today (for example in pre-existing logical/virt= ual > |network solutions), which share a physical network amongst users, do > |not offer this kind of insulation. DetNet can supply point-to-point > |or point-to-multipoint paths that offer bandwidth and latency > |guarantees to a slice that cannot be affected by other slices data > |traffic. > > I hope i did correctly interpret "user" to mean "slice", because, but ev= en > if not, i think the above is correct: If we want to have strict separati= on > guarantees btween different users inside the same clice, that is IMHO a > separate use case within the slicing technology: > >C) I would group existing 10.2.1...10.2.3 under a common use-case, maybe: > > 10.2.2 Deterministic services within slices > > Slices need to be able to provide services that require detnet type > guarantees. These requirements would equally make the use of detnet > for these services a requirement if the service was not provided via a > logical network slice but via a separate physcial network (and therefor= e > the use-case requirement of 10.2.1 would not exist) > > A 5G bearer network is a typical ... > [ Make existing 10.2.1...10.2.3 become eg: 10.2.2.1 ... 10.2.2.3] > > >D) It would be nice to have more clarifying details > about the sentence "A 5G bearer network is a typical > use case of network slicing, including 3 service scenarios" > > If the answer to my questions are not really clear because 3GPP has not > make up its mind what exactly is required, then maybe phrase the text > accordingly (3GPP has not yet decided where or...): > > 1. Will 3GPP want to have slices which are NOT 5G bearer networks ? > if yes, then say this. > > 2. For a network slice which is a 5G bearer network, would it have > only one of the 3 service scenarios, or any subset of the 3 ? > > 3. If the answer to 1. is "yes, also slices that are not 3GPP bearers", > would any or all of the three mentioned service scenarios also > be required in those non-3GPP slices ? > >E) It might be useful to add text stating that use cases for detnet > mentioned in other sections of the document would likely become > use cases of slices in the future. > > Possible suggested text: > > Even though not necesary within the scope of work explicitly charted > for slices in 5G: Whenever 5G or other network service providers see th= e > opportunity to operate services described as use-cases in other section= s of > this document across a shared physcial infrastructure, network slices > would be the likely preferred approach to provide such services. > > Examples include providing electrical utilities services (section 3.) > or pro audio services (section 2.) via slices. Use cases like these cou= ld >become > more into the focus for network slices when the work for 5G core > network evolution will include services that are more inclusive of > even wired access options required in those use-cases. > >F) Another likely evolution of slices worthwhile to notice: > > Slices may equally become the preferred mode of providing services that > are otherwise considered to be out of scope in this document, such as > those in 12.2. These can easily come into scope when Mobile Edge Comput= e > ressources connecting to slices can allow to provide detnet service >guarantees > to these use-cases by eliminating the uncontrolled parts of a path > between servers and client. > >Cheers > Toerless > >On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 09:06:40AM +0000, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: >> Tal does this work for you? >> Ethan. >> >> On Nov 13, 2017, at 3:48 PM, Norman Finn >>> >wrote: >> >> Sounds like Tuesday 16:00. Right? Near registration. >> >> -- Norm >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] >> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 8:16 PM >> To: Das, Subir >> Cc: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw); Norman Finn; >> draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org >> ietf.org>; detnet@ietf.org>; Gary Weiner >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up >> >> I can do Tuesday 16:00. I have a commitment Tuesday at 18:30. >> Ethan. >> >> On Nov 13, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Das, Subir >>> wrote: >> >> I arrived today but can't make it on Tuesday at 13:30. Available from 1= 6:00. >> ________________________________ >> From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] >> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 10:15 PM >> To: Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) >> Cc: Norman Finn; >> draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org >> ietf.org>; detnet@ietf.org>; Gary Weiner >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up >> >> Yes I was agreeing to Tuesday. >> Ethan. >> >> On Nov 13, 2017, at 10:46 AM, Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw) >>> wrote: >> >> On Tuesday. Correct ? >> >> Patrick >> >> From: detnet >> >> on behalf of "Grossman, Ethan A." >> >> >> Date: Monday, 13 November 2017 at 03:43 >> To: Norman Finn >> >>> >, >> "draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org> @ietf.org>" >> > @ietf.org>> >> Cc: "detnet@ietf.org" >> >>, Gary Weiner >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Meet-Up >> >> Meet at 13:30 at IETF Registration? >> Ethan. >> >> From: Norman Finn [mailto:norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com] >> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 4:52 PM >> To: Grossman, Ethan A. >>; >> draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org >> ietf.org> >> Cc: Gary Weiner >>; >> detnet@ietf.org> >> Subject: RE: DetNet Security Meet-Up >> >> Yes, let's get together. Right now, any time Tuesday after lunch would = be >fine. >> >> -- Norm >> ________________________________ >> From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] >> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 3:59 AM >> To: >> draft-ietf-detnet-security@ietf.org >> ietf.org> >> Cc: Gary Weiner; detnet@ietf.org> >> Subject: DetNet Security Meet-Up >> Hello DetNet Security draft authors, (and adding the DetNet list since >> we are now a WG draft and would like to include anyone who has any inter= est), >Tal and I are here in Singapore and would like to know if any of the rest = of you >might be here in town and might want to meet up over lunch or dinner (or >something) to discuss DetNet security, e.g. next steps for the DetNet Secu= rity >draft. If so, please reply and we can plan something. >> Thanks, >> Ethan. >> Ethan Grossman, DetNet Security Draft editor. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > >-- >--- >tte@cs.fau.de --_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C089661F7DGGEMA501MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1258" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Hannu,

 

Thank you for your review, and what yo= u have mentioned in the email is very important for understanding this use = case.

If you notice that there is a statemen= t =935G bearer uses DetNet to have hard resource isolation across slices an= d within the slice=94 before the example you have mentioned, maybe

you can find that this paragraph is in= tended to illustrate how DetNet can offer resource isolation across slices.=

I think if there are only URLLC servic= es in Slice-A and Slice-B, DetNet can separate the slices directly; if ther= e are also non-URLLC services, DetNet can separate the URLLC service from different slices rather than separate the = slices.

The assumption here is that non-URLLC = services don=92t need DetNet-level transmission quality, so non-URLLC servi= ces can=92t be separated by DetNet.

If you think this part of text is not = clear enough , I can add more explanations to avoid confusion.

 

Best Regards,

Xuesong

&n= bsp;

From: Flinck, Hann= u (Nokia - FI/Espoo) [mailto:hannu.flinck@nokia-bell-labs.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 7:57 PM
To: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong); Toerless Eckert; Greg Mirsky; Alexan= dre Petrescu; detnet@ietf.org
Cc: Grossman, Ethan A.; Norman Finn; Mach Chen
Subject: RE: draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases & slices suggestions

 

H= ello Xuesong

 

I am= wondering if this part of the text is correct:

 

=93F= or example, there are two slices in the network: Slice-A and Slice-B; DetNe= t is used to transit URLLC services: URLLC-A and URLLC-B. Without DetNet,

URLL= C-A and URLLC-B compete for bandwidth resource. Latency and reliability is = not guaranteed; With DetNet, URLLC-A and URLLC-B have separate

band= width reservation and there is no confliction between them, just as they ar= e in different logical networks. =93

 

Or d= id you mean to say that (DetNet -> slice):

With= out slicing URLLC-A and URLLC-B compete for bandwidth resource. Latency and= reliability is not guaranteed; With silicing, URLLC-A and URLLC-B have sep= arate

bandwidth reservation and there= is no confliction between them, just as they are in different logical netw= orks.

 

Best regards<= /p>

Hannu

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 3:52 AM
To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.= de>; Greg Mirsky <gregim= irsky@gmail.com>; Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>; detnet@ietf.org
Cc: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagro= s@dolby.com>; Norman Finn <norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com>; Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases & slices sugge= stions

 

H= i Toerless,

&= nbsp;

T= hank you for your comments. They are very useful.

H= ere is the revised text of Network Slicing Use Case. You can find some of y= our suggested words are added into it, which have been highlighted.

I= hope perhaps Greg and Alex can also be satisfied with this version , becau= se a paragraph tries to respond to your comments about adding other use cas= es mentioned in 3GPP . I have highlighted them too.

T= his is open to discuss.

A= ny other comments are welcome.

----------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------

10. Network Slicing

10.1. Use Case Description

N= etwork slicing divides one physical network infrastructure into multiple lo= gical networks. Each slice, corresponding to a logical network,

u= ses resources and network functions independently from each other. Network = slicing provides flexibility of resource allocation and service

q= uality customization. Future services will demand network performance with = a wide variety of characteristics such as high data rate, low

l= atency, low loss rate, security and many other parameters. Ideally every se= rvice would have its own physical network satisfying its particular

p= erformance requirements; however that would be prohibitively expensive. Net= work slicing can provide a customized slice for a single service,

a= nd multiple slices can share the same physical network. This method can opt= imize the performance for the service at lower cost, and the

f= lexibility of setting up and release the slices also allows the user to all= ocate the network resources dynamically. Unlike other DetNet use cases,

N= etwork slicing is not a specific application with specific deterministic re= quirements; it is proposed as a new requirement for the future network,

w= hich is still in discussion, and DetNet is a candidate solution for it.

 

1= 0.2 Using DetNet in Network Slicing

1= 0.2.1 Hard resource isolation across slices=

One = of the requirements discussed for network slicing is the "hard" s= eparation of various users=92 deterministic performance. That is, it should

be i= mpossible for activity, lack of activity, or changes in activity of one or = more users to have any appreciable effect on the deterministic

perf= ormance parameters of any other slices. Typical techniques used today, whic= h share a physical network among users, do not offer this

kind= of insulation. DetNet can supply point-to-point or point-to-multipoint pat= hs that offer bandwidth and latency guarantees to a user that

cann= ot be affected by other users=92 data traffic. Thus DetNet is a powerful to= ol when latency and reliability are required in Network Slicing.=

 

1= 0.2.2 Deterministic services within slices<= o:p>

Slices need to be able to provide services that require = DetNet type guarantees. Technically, DetNet in Network Slicing can be used = just the

same as DetNet without Network Slicing.(from Toerless)

 

1= 0.3 Network Slicing Use Case

Netw= ork Slicing is a core feature of 5G defined in 3GPP, which is currently und= er development. A Network Slice in mobile network is a complete

logi= cal network including Radio Access Network (RAN) and Core Network (CN). It = provides telecommunication services and network capabilities,

whic= h may vary (or not) from slice to slice. A 5G bearer network is a typical u= se case of network slicing, including 3 service scenarios: enhanced

Mobi= le Broadband (eMBB), Ultra-Reliable and Low Latency Communications (URLLC),= and massive Machine Type Communications (mMTC).

&nbs= p;

Each= of these are described below.

=9F   Enhanced Mobile Broadband (eMBB) =

eMBB= focuses on services characterized by high data rates, such as high definit= ion (HD) videos, virtual reality (VR), augmented reality (AR),

and = fixed mobile convergence (FMC).

=9F   Ultra-Reliable and Low Latency Communication= s (URLLC)

URLL= C focuses on latency-sensitive services, such as self-driving vehicles, rem= ote surgery, or drone control.

=9F   massive Machine Type Communications (mMTC) <= /span>

mMTC= focuses on services that have high requirements for connection density, su= ch as those typical for smart city and smart agriculture use cases.

&nbs= p;

5G b= earer uses DetNet to have hard resource isolation across slices and within = the slice.

&nbs= p;

For = example, there are two slices in the network: Slice-A and Slice-B; DetNet i= s used to transit URLLC services: URLLC-A and URLLC-B. Without DetNet,

URLL= C-A and URLLC-B compete for bandwidth resource. Latency and reliability is = not guaranteed; With DetNet, URLLC-A and URLLC-B have separate

band= width reservation and there is no confliction between them, just as they ar= e in different logical networks.

&nbs= p;

Even though not necessary within the scope of work explicit= ly charted for slices in 5G: Whenever 5G or other network service providers= see the

opportunity to operate services described as use-cases in o= ther sections of this document across a shared physical infrastructure, net= work slices would

be the likely preferred approach to provide such services. Examples include pro= viding electrical utilities services (section 3.), pro audio

services (section 2.= ) or V2X via slices. Use ca= ses like these could become more into the focus for network slices when the work for 5G core network evolution

will include services that are more inclusive of even wired= access options required in those use-cases.

( part from Toerless and the highlighted text answer= s the question of Greg and Alex)=

&nbs= p;

Howe= ver, DetNet cannot cover every Network Slicing use case, and there are some= other problems to be solved. Firstly, DetNet is a point-to-point or

poin= t-to-multipoint technology while Network Slicing needs multi-point to multi= -point guarantee. Second, the number of flows that can be carried by

DetN= et is limited by DetNet scalability. Flow aggregation and queuing managemen= t modification may help to fix the problem. More work and discussions

are = needed in these topics.

&nbs= p;

1= 0.4 Network Slicing Today and Future

Netw= ork slicing can satisfy the requirements of a lot of future deployment scen= ario, but it is still a collection of ideas and analysis, without a specifi= c

tech= nical solution. A lot of technologies, such as Flex-E, Segment Routing, and= DetNet have potential to be used in Network Slicing. For more details

plea= se see IETF99 Network Slicing BOF session agenda and materials.

&nbs= p;

1= 0.5. Network Slicing Asks

=9F   Isolation from other flows through Queuing Mana= gement

=9F   Service Quality Customization and Guarantee

=9F   Security

&= nbsp;

----------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------

 

 

Best Regards

 

Xuesong

 

 

 

>-----Original Message---= --

>From: Toerless Eckert [<= a href=3D"mailto:tte@cs.fau.de">mailto:tte@cs.fau.de]=

>Sent: Thursday, November= 16, 2017 11:32 AM

>To: detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases@ietf.org

>Subject: draft-ietf-detn= et-use-cases & slices suggestions

> =

>Wrt to my comments on th= e mike@singapore re. slicing use-case:

> =

>First of all i would lik= e to reinforce Stewarts statement that we should not

>remove slicing from the = use-case draft. My point was different: making the

>importance for detnet in= slicing clearer - because i think it is hierarchical and=

>multi-faceted, and that = does not well reflect in the current text.

> =

>Following suggestions fo= r improvements aside, the existing text of 10. is already=

>very nicely enlightening= about slices, more so than i have seen in other places.<= /p>

> =

>A) I would not call 10.1= "Use Case Description" but instead "Technology

>Description"

> =

>B) 10.3 up to the the &q= uot;However" is IMHO the most fundamental use-case for

>detnet=

>  in the slicing re= alm. It should be moved and become e.g.: a new 10.2.1

>use-case,

>  here is proposed = changed paragraphs:

> =

>  10.2.1 Hard resou= rce isolation across slices

> =

>  |Network slicing = aims to provide logical networks with hard resource

>  |separation guara= ntees between those different logical networks.

>  |Hard resource se= paration means that it should be impossible for activity,=

>  |lack of activity= , or changes in activity of one or more slices to have

>  |any appreciable = effect on the deterministic performance parameters of any=

>  |other slices.

> =

>  |Typical techniqu= es used today (for example in pre-existing logical/virtual

>  |network solution= s), which share a physical network amongst users, do

>  |not offer this k= ind of insulation.  DetNet can supply point-to-point=

>  |or point-to-mult= ipoint paths that offer bandwidth and latency

>  |guarantees to a = slice that cannot be affected by other slices data

>  |traffic.

> =

>  I hope i did corr= ectly interpret "user" to mean "slice", because, but ev= en

>  if not, i think t= he above is correct: If we want to have strict separation=

>  guarantees btween= different users inside the same clice, that is IMHO a

>  separate use case= within the slicing technology:

> =

>C) I would group existin= g 10.2.1...10.2.3 under a common use-case, maybe:

> =

>   10.2.2 Dete= rministic services within slices

> =

>   Slices need= to be able to provide services that require detnet type<= /p>

>   guarantees.= These requirements would equally make the use of detnet<= /p>

>   for these s= ervices a requirement if the service was not provided via a

>   logical net= work slice but via a separate physcial network (and therefore

>   the use-cas= e requirement of 10.2.1 would not exist)

> =

>   A 5G bearer= network is a typical  ...

>   [ Make exis= ting 10.2.1...10.2.3 become eg: 10.2.2.1 ... 10.2.2.3]

> =

> =

>D) It would be nice to h= ave more clarifying details

>   about the s= entence "A 5G bearer network is a typical

>   use case of= network slicing, including 3 service scenarios"

> =

>   If the answ= er to my questions are not really clear because 3GPP has not

>   make up its= mind what exactly is required, then maybe phrase the text

>   accordingly= (3GPP has not yet decided where or...):

> =

>   1. Will 3GP= P want to have slices which are NOT 5G bearer networks ?<= /p>

>    = if yes, then say this.

> =

>   2. For a ne= twork slice which is a 5G bearer network, would it have

>    = only one of the 3 service scenarios, or any subset of the 3 ?

> =

>   3. If the a= nswer to 1. is "yes, also slices that are not 3GPP bearers",=

>    =   would any or all of the three mentioned service scenarios also<= /o:p>

>    =   be required in those non-3GPP slices ?

> =

>E) It might be useful to= add text stating that use cases for detnet

>   mentioned i= n other sections of the document would likely become

>   use cases o= f slices in the future.

> =

>   Possible su= ggested text:

> =

>   Even though= not necesary within the scope of work explicitly charted=

>   for slices = in 5G: Whenever 5G or other network service providers see the

>   opportunity= to operate services described as use-cases in other sections of=

>   this docume= nt across a shared physcial infrastructure, network slices

>   would be th= e likely preferred approach to provide such services.

> =

>   Examples in= clude providing electrical utilities services (section 3.)

>   or pro audi= o services (section 2.) via slices. Use cases like these could

>become=

>   more into t= he focus for network slices when the work for 5G core

>   network evo= lution will include services that are more inclusive of

>   even wired = access options required in those use-cases.

> =

>F) Another likely evolut= ion of slices worthwhile to notice:

> =

>   Slices may = equally become the preferred mode of providing services that

>   are otherwi= se considered to be out of scope in this document, such as

>   those in 12= .2. These can easily come into scope when Mobile Edge Compute

>   ressources = connecting to slices can allow to provide detnet service<= /p>

>guarantees

>   to these us= e-cases by eliminating the uncontrolled parts of a path

>   between ser= vers and client.

> =

>Cheers=

>    Toerl= ess

> =

>On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at = 09:06:40AM +0000, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

>> Tal does this work = for you?

>> Ethan.

>> 

>> On Nov 13, 2017, at= 3:48 PM, Norman Finn

><norman.finn@mail01.huawei.co= m<mailto:norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com>>

>wrote:=

>> 

>> Sounds like Tuesday= 16:00.  Right?  Near registration.

>> 

>> -- Norm<= /span>

>> 

>> ___________________= _____________

>> From: Grossman, Eth= an A. [eagros@dolby.com<mailto:eagros@dolby.com>]

>> Sent: Sunday, Novem= ber 12, 2017 8:16 PM

>> To: Das, Subir=

>> Cc: Patrick Wetterw= ald (pwetterw); Norman Finn;

>> draft-ietf-detnet-sec= urity@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-security@<= /span>

>> ietf.org>; detnet@ietf.org<ma= ilto:detnet@ietf.org>; Gary Weiner

>> Subject: Re: [Detne= t] DetNet Security Meet-Up

>> 

>> I can do Tuesday 16= :00. I have a commitment Tuesday at 18:30.

>> Ethan.

>> 

>> On Nov 13, 2017, at= 11:27 AM, Das, Subir

><sdas@appcomsci.com<mailto:sdas@appcomsci.com>> wrote:

>> 

>> I arrived today but= can't  make it on Tuesday at 13:30. Available from 16:00.<= /span>

>> ___________________= _____________

>> From: Grossman, Eth= an A. [eagros@dolby.com<mailto:eagros@dolby.com>]

>> Sent: Sunday, Novem= ber 12, 2017 10:15 PM

>> To: Patrick Wetterw= ald (pwetterw)

>> Cc: Norman Finn;

>> draft-ietf-detnet-sec= urity@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-security@<= /span>

>> ietf.org>; detnet@ietf.org<ma= ilto:detnet@ietf.org>; Gary Weiner

>> Subject: Re: [Detne= t] DetNet Security Meet-Up

>> 

>> Yes I was agreeing = to Tuesday.

>> Ethan.

>> 

>> On Nov 13, 2017, at= 10:46 AM, Patrick Wetterwald (pwetterw)

><pwetterw@cisco.com<mailto:pwetterw@cisco.com>> wrote:

>> 

>> On Tuesday. Correct= ?

>> 

>> Patrick<= /span>

>> 

>> From: detnet <<= span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">detnet-bounces@ietf.or= g<mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org>>

>> on behalf of "= Grossman, Ethan A."

>> <eagros@dolby.com<mailto:eagros@dolby.com>>

>> Date: Monday, 13 No= vember 2017 at 03:43

>> To: Norman Finn

>> 

><norman.finn@mail01.huawei.co= m<mailto:norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com>>

>,

>> "draft-ietf-de= tnet-security@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-security

>> @ietf.org>"=

>> <draft-ietf-detn= et-security@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-security=

>> @ietf.org>>

>> Cc: "detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.or= g>"

>> <detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>>, Gary Weiner

>> <Gary@Apriori-NET.COM<mailto:Gary@Aprio= ri-NET.COM>>

>> Subject: Re: [Detne= t] DetNet Security Meet-Up

>> 

>> Meet at 13:30 at IE= TF Registration?

>> Ethan.

>> 

>> From: Norman Finn [= mailto:norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com= ]

>> Sent: Sunday, Novem= ber 12, 2017 4:52 PM

>> To: Grossman, Ethan= A. <eagros@dolby.com<mailto= :eagros@dolby.com>>;

>> draft-ietf-detnet-sec= urity@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-security@<= /span>

>> ietf.org>

>> Cc: Gary Weiner <= ;Gary@Apriori-NET.COM<m= ailto:Gary@Apriori-NET.COM>>;

>> detnet@ietf.org<ma= ilto:detnet@ietf.org>

>> Subject: RE: DetNet= Security Meet-Up

>> 

>> Yes, let's get toge= ther.  Right now, any time Tuesday after lunch would be

>fine.<= /p>

>> 

>> -- Norm<= /span>

>> ___________________= _____________

>> From: Grossman, Eth= an A. [eagros@dolby.com<mailto:eagros@dolby.com>]

>> Sent: Sunday, Novem= ber 12, 2017 3:59 AM

>> To:

>> draft-ietf-detnet-sec= urity@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-security@<= /span>

>> ietf.org>

>> Cc: Gary Weiner; detnet@ietf.org<ma= ilto:detnet@ietf.org>

>> Subject: DetNet Sec= urity Meet-Up

>> Hello DetNet Securi= ty draft authors, (and adding the DetNet list since

>> we are now a WG dra= ft and would like to include anyone who has any interest),

>Tal and I are here in Si= ngapore and would like to know if any of the rest of you<= /p>

>might be here in town an= d might want to meet up over lunch or dinner (or

>something) to discuss De= tNet security, e.g. next steps for the DetNet Security

>draft. If so, please rep= ly and we can plan something.

>> Thanks,<= /span>

>> Ethan.

>> Ethan Grossman, Det= Net Security Draft editor.

>> 

>> ___________________= ____________________________

>> detnet mailing list=

>> detnet@ietf.org<ma= ilto:detnet@ietf.org>

>> https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/detnet

> =

>> ___________________= ____________________________

>> detnet mailing list=

>> detne= t@ietf.org

>> https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/detnet

> =

> =

>--

>---

>tte@cs.fau.d= e

--_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C089661F7DGGEMA501MBSchi_-- From nobody Tue Jan 16 18:28:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05EC12D948 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 18:28:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.229 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.229 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DGd7lXGehuyo for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 18:28:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1810112D93E for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 18:28:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML713-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 4BB7CC7D987B4; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 02:28:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.39) by LHREML713-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.361.1; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 02:28:37 +0000 Received: from DGGEML510-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.54]) by DGGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::b177:a243:7a69:5ab8%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 10:28:33 +0800 From: Mach Chen To: Stewart Bryant , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Varga_A?= , DetNet WG Thread-Topic: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) Thread-Index: AdON9g9s51ad7oXxQLCexQu8wQXvkQAb0RFQAAO5NwAAMF3rIA== Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 02:28:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0e63108f-2b9e-95b7-57f7-dcc389b8b96f@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0e63108f-2b9e-95b7-57f7-dcc389b8b96f@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.194.201] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 02:28:44 -0000 Hi Stewart, Some responses inline... > -----Original Message----- > From: Mach Chen > Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 9:51 AM > To: Mach Chen > Subject: FW: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 6:47 PM > To: Mach Chen ; Bal=E1zs Varga A > ; DetNet WG > Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) >=20 > If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer then= we PSN layer may not be needed for some cases, for example, the latency guaran= tee case, all nodes along a path have to be DN aware, for each segment betw= een two adjacent nodes, PSN layer is not necessary.=20 > really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one th= rough > RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, but we could introduce the > concept, for example by making this the property of the IP address or som= e > way of MPLSing IP. > However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our expectation = that > each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our expectation that at lest i= n some > networks the data plane is generic with some DN nodes strategically place= d? IMHO, for latency guarantee case, all nodes along a path have to be DN awar= e, for reliability only case, only the Replication/Elimination nodes have = to be DN aware. > I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers will all b= e DN > aware, but in order to get deployment in most networks we need to design = for > the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware. Yes, but it depends the requirements, strategic nodes deployment is possib= le for "reliability only" case, but may not be for latency case.=20 Best regards, Mach > - Stewart >=20 > On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote: > Hi Balazs, >=20 > #2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, seem= s > there is no compatibility issue. >=20 > In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to differentiate a De= tNet > flow from a non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can process the C= W > as expected. In TSN, it uses the priority to determine whether a flow is= TSN or > non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the same way (e.g., TC, DSCP= )? > Or the DetNet service Label itself implies the situation, but it seems th= at this > only works when the DetNet service label is the top label. >=20 > Any other thoughts? >=20 > Best regards, > Mach >=20 > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bal=E1zs Varga= A > Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM > To: DetNet WG > Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft= . > This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. >=20 > Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: > - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips ze= ro. > It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) >=20 > Possible problem resolutions: > #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: > 0 1 2 3 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0 | 16 bit Sequence Number | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > D-bit: set to "1" means DetNet specific Seq. Number used, > Bit5-15: reserved. >=20 > RFC4448 states that reserved bits "MUST be ignored upon receipt", so > backward compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to us= e > longer seq.num. > formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385. >=20 > #2: Making "0" as a valid Seq.Num. > DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet domai= n. > S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions (i.e. PR= EF). > S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No other nodes > care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its own sequenc= e > number processing algorithm. So "0" can be a valid number and not the > indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with RFC4385. >=20 > #3: Other . ?!? >=20 > Comments are welcome. >=20 > Cheers > Bala'zs >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger > Sent: 2018. janu=E1r 10. 19:01 > To: DetNet WG > Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim >=20 > is available for download at: > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3De5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf2023= 0 > 1 >=20 > raw notes are available at > http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 >=20 > Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording. >=20 > Lou (and co-chairs) >=20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Tue Jan 16 19:37:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 422D71242EA for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 19:37:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.229 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.229 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Srdt1LN6sz9E for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 19:37:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07BD21241FC for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 19:37:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 03F9ED1949C3C; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 03:37:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEML424-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.41) by lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.48) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.361.1; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 03:37:03 +0000 Received: from DGGEML510-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.54]) by dggeml424-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.41]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 11:36:52 +0800 From: Mach Chen To: "Grossman, Ethan A." , Stewart Bryant , "Andrew G. Malis" CC: DetNet WG , =?utf-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBWYXJnYSBB?= Thread-Topic: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) Thread-Index: AdON9g9s51ad7oXxQLCexQu8wQXvkQAb0RFQAAO5NwAACZKlAAACtrEAAAL8ugAAJHe3MA== Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 03:36:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0e63108f-2b9e-95b7-57f7-dcc389b8b96f@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.194.201] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 03:37:24 -0000 SGkgRXRoYW4sDQoNCj4gRnJvbTogR3Jvc3NtYW4sIEV0aGFuIEEuIFttYWlsdG86ZWFncm9zQGRv 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[213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k42sm2859971edb.44.2018.01.17.00.29.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Jan 2018 00:29:02 -0800 (PST) To: "Grossman, Ethan A." , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= , "Andrew G. Malis" Cc: DetNet WG , Mach Chen References: From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <9d8fab9f-b5dd-6df0-1463-1c0eb63e8cdc@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 08:29:01 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------BF0C756593B4E48EB393C872" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 08:29:10 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BF0C756593B4E48EB393C872 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 16/01/2018 18:38, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > Hi Bala’zs, > > Regarding IPv4, I also understood that we decided that we can’t add > new IPv4 fields. Pardon my ignorance here, but does that mean there is > no part of DetNet capability that can be run over IPv4? Or is there > some “workaround” to provide as I say even part of the DetNet > capability, given that it is an Engineered network? I just want to > clarify expectations here. > If you have a native IPv4 network to which you present IPv6 packets, you either have to tunnel them across where the IPv6 is considered opaque data, or you have to translate them to IPv4, but that requires some common semantics to deal with extension headers which we don't currently have. So, as far as I can see, a decision not to support IPv4 means no DN support across the IPv4 network. Which takes us back to the question of how important is this and what will it do to the take-up of the technology by its target customers? - Stewart > Thanks, > > Ethan. > > *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Balázs > Varga A > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 16, 2018 10:21 AM > *To:* Stewart Bryant ; Andrew G. Malis > > *Cc:* DetNet WG ; Mach Chen > *Subject:* [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) > > I think the last mails are more about flow identification and not the > sequence number. > > So, I have re-subjected my answer. > > PSN layer vs. DN layer (MPLS): > > - in current data plane text we have stated that DetNet PWs may use > dedicated LSPs (TE-tunnels). > > That allow to identify DetNet flows in PSN layer without checking the > PW label. Such a solution of > > course may challenge scalability. > > - regarding prioritization: text allows both E-LSP and L-LSP concept, > what makes possible > > to identify DetNet packets. However that is more for simple queuing > scenarios as it does not > > identify individual flows. > > PSN layer vs. DN layer (non-MPLS): > > - IPv4: If I remember correctly it was discussed to be out-of-scope to > simplify the scenarios we focus on. > > No-one wanted to define new IPv4 fields for flow-ID and Seq-Num in the > “sunset of IPv4”. > > - IPv6: based on the src-IPv6 and the flow-label NP can detect DetNet > flows. Why would we need a new > > IP protocol type? > > Generic vs. DN aware data plane: > > - I think we need both. We have use-cases specified for both. > > DetNet traffic to be transported: > > - two types are considered: > > (1) Ethernet: IEEE TSN traffic encapsulated in Ethernet frames and > > (2) IP: IPv6 transported over any L2 (not always Ethernet, but most > cases Ethernet) > > As noted above IPv4 is currently out-of-scope … > > Cheers > > Bala’zs > > *From:*Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com] > *Sent:* 2018. január 16. 17:38 > *To:* Andrew G. Malis > > *Cc:* Mach Chen >; > Balázs Varga A >; DetNet WG > > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > > Andy > > On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > Stewart, > > Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be another PW > type), targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central controller, > NMS, etc.) are alternatives to RSVP and SR to > provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW label. > > > .. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this purpose in VPNs > > You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) case, we > need a way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could have a new > IP protocol type for DETNET, and a DETNET header directly follows > the IP header. In that case, the DETNET header would also need a > next protocol identifier, unless the next protocol is always > another IP header. > > > Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP extension > header, although I am not a fan of those since (a) I am not confident > what a router will do one it does not understand, and (b) I am > concerned about the need to support IPv4 which I suspect will have a > long tail in enterprise deployment. > > I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal support > through any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers need to look a > the UDP DP so checking if it is one they need to work on is just one > compare and conditional branch. > > Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the identifier. > > > Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this is sufficient. > > - Stewart > > Cheers, > > Andy > > On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant > > wrote: > > If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN > layer then we really are forced to create a new FEC type for > MPLS, or synthesize one through RSVP or SR. IP has no native > support for this, but we could introduce the concept, for > example by making this the property of the IP address or some > way of MPLSing IP. > > However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our > expectation that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is > our expectation that at lest in some networks the data plane > is generic with some DN nodes strategically placed? > > I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers > will all be DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most > networks we need to design for the case where only strategic > nodes are DN aware. > > - Stewart > > On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote: > > Hi Balazs, > > #2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated > for DetNet, seems there is no compatibility issue. > > In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to > differentiate a DetNet flow from a non-DetNet flow, then > the network processor can process the CW as expected. In > TSN, it uses the priority to determine whether a flow is > TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the > same way (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label > itself implies the situation, but it seems that this only > works when the DetNet service label is the top label. > > Any other thoughts? > > Best regards, > > Mach > > *From:* detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf > Of *Balázs Varga A > *Sent:* Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM > *To:* DetNet WG > *Subject:* [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > > Hi, > > Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP > solution draft. > > This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. > > Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: > > - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states > that S/N skips zero. > > It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) > > Possible problem resolutions: > > #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: > > 0                   1 2                   3 > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 > 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0  |   16 bit Sequence > Number      | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > D-bit: set to “1” means DetNet specific Seq. Number used, > > Bit5-15: reserved. > > RFC4448 states that reserved bits “MUST be ignored upon > receipt”, so backward > > compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also > to use longer seq.num. > > formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with > RFC4385. > > #2: Making “0” as a valid Seq.Num. > > DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within > the DetNet > > domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet > Service functions > > (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet > relay-nodes. No > > other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet > can specify its > > own sequence number processing algorithm. So “0” can be a > valid number > > and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is > inline with RFC4385. > > #3: Other … ?!? > > Comments are welcome. > > Cheers > > Bala'zs > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Lou Berger > Sent: 2018. január 10. 19:01 > To: DetNet WG > > Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim > > is available for download at: > > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301 > > > raw notes are available at > > http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 > > > Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the > recording. > > Lou (and co-chairs) > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > --------------BF0C756593B4E48EB393C872 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit



On 16/01/2018 18:38, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Hi Bala’zs,

Regarding IPv4, I also understood that we decided that we can’t add new IPv4 fields. Pardon my ignorance here, but does that mean there is no part of DetNet capability that can be run over IPv4? Or is there some “workaround” to provide as I say even part of the DetNet capability, given that it is an Engineered network? I just want to clarify expectations here.


If you have a native IPv4 network to which you present IPv6 packets, you either have to tunnel them across where the IPv6 is considered opaque data, or you have to translate them to IPv4, but that requires some common semantics to deal with extension headers which we don't currently have.

So, as far as I can see, a decision not to support IPv4 means no DN support across the IPv4 network.

Which takes us back to the question of how important is this and what will it do to the take-up of the technology by its target customers?

- Stewart

Thanks,

Ethan.

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Balázs Varga A
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 10:21 AM
To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification)

 

I think the last mails are more about flow identification and not the sequence number.

So, I have re-subjected my answer.

 

PSN layer vs. DN layer (MPLS):

- in current data plane text we have stated that DetNet PWs may use dedicated LSPs (TE-tunnels).

That allow to identify DetNet flows in PSN layer without checking the PW label. Such a solution of

course may challenge scalability.

- regarding prioritization: text allows both E-LSP and L-LSP concept, what makes possible

to identify DetNet packets. However that is more for simple queuing scenarios as it does not

identify individual flows.

 

PSN layer vs. DN layer (non-MPLS):

- IPv4: If I remember correctly it was discussed to be out-of-scope to simplify the scenarios we focus on.

No-one wanted to define new IPv4 fields for flow-ID and Seq-Num in the “sunset of IPv4”.

- IPv6: based on the src-IPv6 and the flow-label NP can detect DetNet flows. Why would we need a new

IP protocol type?

 

Generic vs. DN aware data plane:

- I think we need both. We have use-cases specified for both.

 

DetNet traffic to be transported:

- two types are considered:

(1) Ethernet: IEEE TSN traffic encapsulated in Ethernet frames and

(2) IP: IPv6 transported over any L2 (not always Ethernet, but most cases Ethernet)

As noted above IPv4 is currently out-of-scope …

 

Cheers

Bala’zs

 

From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: 2018. január 16. 17:38
To: Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>; Balázs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

 

 

Andy

On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote:

Stewart,

 

Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be another PW type), targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central controller, NMS, etc.) are alternatives to RSVP and SR to provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW label.


.. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this purpose in VPNs

 

You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) case, we need a way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could have a new IP protocol type for DETNET, and a DETNET header directly follows the IP header. In that case, the DETNET header would also need a next protocol identifier, unless the next protocol is always another IP header.


Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP extension header, although I am not a fan of those since (a) I am not confident what a router will do one it does not understand, and (b) I am concerned about the need to support IPv4 which I suspect will have a long tail in enterprise deployment.

I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal support through any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers need to look a the UDP DP so checking if it is one they need to work on is just one compare and conditional branch.

 

Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the identifier.


Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this is sufficient.

- Stewart
 

 

Cheers,

Andy

 

 

On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:

If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer then we really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, but we could introduce the concept, for example by making this the property of the IP address or some way of MPLSing IP.

However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our expectation that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our expectation that at lest in some networks the data plane is generic with some DN nodes strategically placed?

I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers will all be DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most networks we need to design for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware.

- Stewart

 

On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote:

Hi Balazs,

 

#2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, seems there is no compatibility issue.

 

In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to differentiate a DetNet flow from a non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can process the CW as expected.  In TSN, it uses the priority to determine whether a flow is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the same way (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself implies the situation, but it seems that this only works when the DetNet service label is the top label.  

 

Any other thoughts?

 

Best regards,

Mach

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Balázs Varga A
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

 

Hi,

 

Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft.

This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering.

 

Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word:

- S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips zero.

It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448)

 

Possible problem resolutions:

#1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW:

      0                   1                   2                   3

      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

     |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0  |   16 bit Sequence Number      |

     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

D-bit: set to “1” means DetNet specific Seq. Number used,

Bit5-15: reserved.

 

RFC4448 states that reserved bits “MUST be ignored upon receipt”, so backward

compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer seq.num.

formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385.

 

#2: Making “0” as a valid Seq.Num.

DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet

domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions

(i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No

other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its

own sequence number processing algorithm. So “0” can be a valid number

and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with RFC4385.

 

#3: Other … ?!?

 

Comments are welcome.

 

Cheers

Bala'zs

 

-----Original Message-----
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger
Sent: 2018. január 10. 19:01
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim

 

is available for download at:

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301

 

raw notes are available at

http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01

 

Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording.

 

Lou (and co-chairs)

 

_______________________________________________

detnet mailing list

detnet@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 


_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 

 


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[213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b46sm2670534edd.73.2018.01.17.00.40.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Jan 2018 00:40:47 -0800 (PST) To: Jouni , "Grossman, Ethan A." Cc: "Andrew G. Malis" , DetNet WG , Mach Chen , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= References: <0e63108f-2b9e-95b7-57f7-dcc389b8b96f@gmail.com> <0A978245-C70D-4938-B03D-EAA1F4BE5CF3@gmail.com> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 08:40:45 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0A978245-C70D-4938-B03D-EAA1F4BE5CF3@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 08:40:52 -0000 On 16/01/2018 23:05, Jouni wrote: >> On 16 Jan 2018, at 20:03, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: >> >> Just a couple of my thoughts: >> 1) Regarding whether every node in the network is required to be DetNet aware, I was assuming that it would be like AVB/TSN, in which you can only make a stream reservation through a path of nodes that are TSN aware, and traffic that had to cross non-aware nodes would have to be treated as non-TSN traffic, i.e. some packets could get dropped and there would not be timing guarantees, but at least they wouldn’t be dropped wholesale due to massive protocol incompatibility. Is that the expectation here or is there a significant difference? > This is (still) my understanding of the scope. My expectation is that there is no difference for DetNEt traffic. The consequence of that is that where we are just worried about reliable delivery and not transit time we are unable to make use of existing infrastructure by strategic upgrades to existing networks. By making this statement we say that we expect all nodes to be able to support all features and all DN paths to be traffic engineered even over the WAN. Is that correct? - Stewart > > - Jouni > > >> 2) I agree that we need to have some kind of strategy for supporting IPv4, for example providing at least DetNet-type delay and jitter bounds, even if it had some limitations compared to MPLS/IPv6 (e.g. no PREF and thus limited reliability). > > >> >> Ethan. >> >> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant >> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 8:38 AM >> To: Andrew G. Malis >> Cc: DetNet WG ; Mach Chen ; Balázs Varga A >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) >> >> >> >> Andy >> >> On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >> Stewart, >> >> Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be another PW type), targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central controller, NMS, etc.) are alternatives to RSVP and SR to provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW label. >> >> .. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this purpose in VPNs >> >> >> >> You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) case, we need a way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could have a new IP protocol type for DETNET, and a DETNET header directly follows the IP header. In that case, the DETNET header would also need a next protocol identifier, unless the next protocol is always another IP header. >> >> Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP extension header, although I am not a fan of those since (a) I am not confident what a router will do one it does not understand, and (b) I am concerned about the need to support IPv4 which I suspect will have a long tail in enterprise deployment. >> >> I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal support through any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers need to look a the UDP DP so checking if it is one they need to work on is just one compare and conditional branch. >> >> >> >> Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the identifier. >> >> Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this is sufficient. >> >> - Stewart >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> Andy >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: >> If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer then we really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, but we could introduce the concept, for example by making this the property of the IP address or some way of MPLSing IP. >> >> However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our expectation that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our expectation that at lest in some networks the data plane is generic with some DN nodes strategically placed? >> >> I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers will all be DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most networks we need to design for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware. >> >> - Stewart >> >> >> On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote: >> Hi Balazs, >> >> #2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, seems there is no compatibility issue. >> >> In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to differentiate a DetNet flow from a non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can process the CW as expected. In TSN, it uses the priority to determine whether a flow is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the same way (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself implies the situation, but it seems that this only works when the DetNet service label is the top label. >> >> Any other thoughts? >> >> Best regards, >> Mach >> >> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Balázs Varga A >> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM >> To: DetNet WG >> Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft. >> >> This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. >> >> >> >> Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: >> >> - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips zero. >> >> It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) >> >> >> >> Possible problem resolutions: >> >> #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: >> >> 0 1 2 3 >> >> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 >> >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >> >> |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0 | 16 bit Sequence Number | >> >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >> >> D-bit: set to “1” means DetNet specific Seq. Number used, >> >> Bit5-15: reserved. >> >> >> >> RFC4448 states that reserved bits “MUST be ignored upon receipt”, so backward >> >> compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer seq.num. >> >> formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385. >> >> >> >> #2: Making “0” as a valid Seq.Num. >> >> DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet >> >> domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions >> >> (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No >> >> other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its >> >> own sequence number processing algorithm. So “0” can be a valid number >> >> and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with RFC4385. >> >> >> >> #3: Other … ?!? >> >> >> >> Comments are welcome. >> >> >> >> Cheers >> >> Bala'zs >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger >> Sent: 2018. január 10. 19:01 >> To: DetNet WG >> Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim >> >> >> >> is available for download at: >> >> https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301 >> >> >> >> raw notes are available at >> >> http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 >> >> >> >> Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording. >> >> >> >> Lou (and co-chairs) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> detnet mailing list >> >> detnet@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Wed Jan 17 01:47:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E6C212EBD0 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 01:47:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.529 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.529 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ptL623Zz3-zm for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 01:47:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E310128959 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 01:47:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=13162; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1516182475; x=1517392075; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=Pj+dc54eUZ/sc7unJCJE7QJZXbzUfoBXsk06VGusaG0=; b=VIXJw2oj5JZvJw+vIrQwWUts5GidrQaFcOPxvzrP1ceJtlNgWEGLG6Ik oBIEVhgYsUkHJzIi/A7mmf7dC5E1P+hb0xtSM0Lx2nDEcqNW2xB1Q9eiJ VFeQWlE6b4mm8DLFZKhLupNOldw3gaIf1+vLQGafVIz2rxttJSUqfRLQi g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AkAQA+G19a/4ENJK1BGhkBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEHAQEBAQGDETBmdCeEE4okjmGBWyeJB44nghYKGA2EMhVPAhqERj8YAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBayiFIwEBAQMBAQEhEToLBQcEAgEGAhEEAQEBAgIjAwICAh8GCxQBC?= =?us-ascii?q?AgCBA4FG4oAAw0IEDSHepw4EYEngieHPg2CBAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAR2BD4VCgVeBaSkMgVKBJ4JrRAEBAhmBLwcBAREkgwAxgjQFoy09AogLg3uER?= =?us-ascii?q?oUDAoIXZ4U2i1uKaYJYQIh7AhEZAYE7AR85gVBvFT0qAYF/CYJLHIFneAEEiRs?= =?us-ascii?q?CDRiCJAEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.46,372,1511827200"; d="scan'208";a="338060454" Received: from alln-core-9.cisco.com ([173.36.13.129]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 17 Jan 2018 09:47:53 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (xch-rcd-005.cisco.com [173.37.102.15]) by alln-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w0H9lrJg006620 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Jan 2018 09:47:53 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (173.37.102.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 03:47:53 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 03:47:53 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Stewart Bryant CC: Jouni , "Grossman, Ethan A." , DetNet WG , "Andrew G. Malis" , =?utf-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBWYXJnYSBB?= , Mach Chen Thread-Topic: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) Thread-Index: AdON9g9s51ad7oXxQLCexQu8wQXvkQAb0RFQACEPZgAACZKlAAACtrIAAAL8ugAACokcAAAUFoqA//+uLKw= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 09:47:53 +0000 Message-ID: <71659698-6113-4742-A6FE-F731818ED51A@cisco.com> References: <0e63108f-2b9e-95b7-57f7-dcc389b8b96f@gmail.com> <0A978245-C70D-4938-B03D-EAA1F4BE5CF3@gmail.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 09:47:57 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[213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g15sm7836120wrb.66.2018.01.17.10.38.44 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Jan 2018 10:38:45 -0800 (PST) To: "Grossman, Ethan A." , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= , "Andrew G. Malis" Cc: DetNet WG , Mach Chen References: <9d8fab9f-b5dd-6df0-1463-1c0eb63e8cdc@gmail.com> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 18:38:43 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------47EED5C0CCF4C09688AF58CD" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 18:38:52 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------47EED5C0CCF4C09688AF58CD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi  Ethan, On 17/01/2018 18:24, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > Thanks Stewart for the clarification. I interpret your statement “a > decision not to support IPv4” to mean “a decision not to propose > adding anything to the existing IPv4 standard”. > To support IPv4 there are a number of methods that are possible, one is to add something to v4 itself as is proposed for v6. Adding something to the base protocol will be very difficult. Another method, is to do what has been proposed by some for MPLS, that is to encode the identity and type in the IP address. There is a proposal to do this in SRv6. I am not a great fan of abusing the address space for this in the way proposed by that work, but maybe we can do something much simpler here and simply identify the DN instance by the IP address with no other semantics. Much easier to do this for IPv6 with the "infinite addresses" but we could get away with it in limited private Ipv4 networks. Of course this does change the per-hop behaviour of IP which may be a challenge to get the IETF to sign of on. Another method is to use some method of carrying an MPLS label stack - this was the first proposal. Now I said that I did not think anyone had done that and I still believe that to be the case, but that does not mean that it is not the least worst approach. There are alternates for example IP/UDP/MPLS which is the so called USR approach that a number of us advocate as an alternative to SRv6. > If that isn’t correct, please let me know. As you may recall I already > started a thread awhile ago to discuss IPv4 vs IPv6, and based on the > responses it appeared to me at that time that there were some kind of > options, though not a “native IPv4” solution, but it wasn’t clear to > me (as a non-expert in the various networking protocols mentioned) > whether they would be viable in practice or not. I will revive that > thread and see if we can get any closer to determining the importance > of IPv4 to our target customers, and hopefully some sense of whether > the proposed non-native-IPv4 strategies will hold water. > Yes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a consensus of whether a) We support v4 b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions c) We use a single common IP approach d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS - Stewart > Ethan. > > *From:*Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 17, 2018 12:29 AM > *To:* Grossman, Ethan A. ; Balázs Varga A > ; Andrew G. Malis > *Cc:* DetNet WG ; Mach Chen > *Subject:* Re: DP solution (Flow identification) > > On 16/01/2018 18:38, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > Hi Bala’zs, > > Regarding IPv4, I also understood that we decided that we can’t > add new IPv4 fields. Pardon my ignorance here, but does that mean > there is no part of DetNet capability that can be run over IPv4? > Or is there some “workaround” to provide as I say even part of the > DetNet capability, given that it is an Engineered network? I just > want to clarify expectations here. > > > If you have a native IPv4 network to which you present IPv6 packets, > you either have to tunnel them across where the IPv6 is considered > opaque data, or you have to translate them to IPv4, but that requires > some common semantics to deal with extension headers which we don't > currently have. > > So, as far as I can see, a decision not to support IPv4 means no DN > support across the IPv4 network. > > Which takes us back to the question of how important is this and what > will it do to the take-up of the technology by its target customers? > > - Stewart > > > Thanks, > > Ethan. > > *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of > *Balázs Varga A > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 16, 2018 10:21 AM > *To:* Stewart Bryant > ; Andrew G. Malis > > *Cc:* DetNet WG ; Mach > Chen > *Subject:* [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) > > I think the last mails are more about flow identification and not > the sequence number. > > So, I have re-subjected my answer. > > PSN layer vs. DN layer (MPLS): > > - in current data plane text we have stated that DetNet PWs may > use dedicated LSPs (TE-tunnels). > > That allow to identify DetNet flows in PSN layer without checking > the PW label. Such a solution of > > course may challenge scalability. > > - regarding prioritization: text allows both E-LSP and L-LSP > concept, what makes possible > > to identify DetNet packets. However that is more for simple > queuing scenarios as it does not > > identify individual flows. > > PSN layer vs. DN layer (non-MPLS): > > - IPv4: If I remember correctly it was discussed to be > out-of-scope to simplify the scenarios we focus on. > > No-one wanted to define new IPv4 fields for flow-ID and Seq-Num in > the “sunset of IPv4”. > > - IPv6: based on the src-IPv6 and the flow-label NP can detect > DetNet flows. Why would we need a new > > IP protocol type? > > Generic vs. DN aware data plane: > > - I think we need both. We have use-cases specified for both. > > DetNet traffic to be transported: > > - two types are considered: > > (1) Ethernet: IEEE TSN traffic encapsulated in Ethernet frames and > > (2) IP: IPv6 transported over any L2 (not always Ethernet, but > most cases Ethernet) > > As noted above IPv4 is currently out-of-scope … > > Cheers > > Bala’zs > > *From:*Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com] > *Sent:* 2018. január 16. 17:38 > *To:* Andrew G. Malis > > *Cc:* Mach Chen >; Balázs Varga A > >; DetNet WG > > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > > Andy > > On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > Stewart, > > Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be another PW > type), targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central > controller, NMS, etc.) are alternatives to RSVP and SR to > provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW label. > > > .. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this purpose > in VPNs > > > You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) case, we > need a way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could have a > new IP protocol type for DETNET, and a DETNET header directly > follows the IP header. In that case, the DETNET header would > also need a next protocol identifier, unless the next protocol > is always another IP header. > > > Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP extension > header, although I am not a fan of those since (a) I am not > confident what a router will do one it does not understand, and > (b) I am concerned about the need to support IPv4 which I suspect > will have a long tail in enterprise deployment. > > I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal > support through any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers need > to look a the UDP DP so checking if it is one they need to work on > is just one compare and conditional branch. > > > Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the identifier. > > > Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this is > sufficient. > > - Stewart > > Cheers, > > Andy > > On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant > > > wrote: > > If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than > the DN layer then we really are forced to create a new FEC > type for MPLS, or synthesize one through RSVP or SR. IP > has no native support for this, but we could introduce the > concept, for example by making this the property of the IP > address or some way of MPLSing IP. > > However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is > our expectation that each hop in the data plane DN aware, > or is our expectation that at lest in some networks the > data plane is generic with some DN nodes strategically placed? > > I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the > routers will all be DN aware, but in order to get > deployment in most networks we need to design for the case > where only strategic nodes are DN aware. > > - Stewart > > On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote: > > Hi Balazs, > > #2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is > dedicated for DetNet, seems there is no compatibility > issue. > > In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to > differentiate a DetNet flow from a non-DetNet flow, > then the network processor can process the CW as > expected.  In TSN, it uses the priority to determine > whether a flow is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, > should we also use the same way (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or > the DetNet service Label itself implies the situation, > but it seems that this only works when the DetNet > service label is the top label. > > Any other thoughts? > > Best regards, > > Mach > > *From:* detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Balázs Varga A > *Sent:* Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM > *To:* DetNet WG > *Subject:* [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > > Hi, > > Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of > the DP solution draft. > > This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. > > Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: > > - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition > states that S/N skips zero. > > It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) > > Possible problem resolutions: > > #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: > > 0 1 2                   3 > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 > 7 8 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0  |   16 bit Sequence > Number      | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > D-bit: set to “1” means DetNet specific Seq. Number used, > > Bit5-15: reserved. > > RFC4448 states that reserved bits “MUST be ignored > upon receipt”, so backward > > compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow > also to use longer seq.num. > > formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with > RFC4385. > > #2: Making “0” as a valid Seq.Num. > > DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special > within the DetNet > > domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet > Service functions > > (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and > DetNet relay-nodes. No > > other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore > DetNet can specify its > > own sequence number processing algorithm. So “0” can > be a valid number > > and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This > is inline with RFC4385. > > #3: Other … ?!? > > Comments are welcome. > > Cheers > > Bala'zs > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Lou Berger > Sent: 2018. január 10. 19:01 > To: DetNet WG > > Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim > > is available for download at: > > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301 > > > raw notes are available at > > http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 > > > Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the > recording. > > Lou (and co-chairs) > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > --------------47EED5C0CCF4C09688AF58CD Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi  Ethan,


On 17/01/2018 18:24, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Thanks Stewart for the clarification. I interpret your statement “a decision not to support IPv4” to mean “a decision not to propose adding anything to the existing IPv4 standard”.


To support IPv4 there are a number of methods that are possible, one is to add something to v4 itself as is proposed for v6. Adding something to the base protocol will be very difficult.

Another method, is to do what has been proposed by some for MPLS, that is to encode the identity and type in the IP address. There is a proposal to do this in SRv6. I am not a great fan of abusing the address space for this in the way proposed by that work, but maybe we can do something much simpler here and simply identify the DN instance by the IP address with no other semantics. Much easier to do this for IPv6 with the "infinite addresses" but we could get away with it in limited private Ipv4 networks. Of course this does change the per-hop behaviour of IP which may be a challenge to get the IETF to sign of on.

Another method is to use some method of carrying an MPLS label stack - this was the first proposal. Now I said that I did not think anyone had done that and I still believe that to be the case, but that does not mean that it is not the least worst approach. There are alternates for example IP/UDP/MPLS
which is the so called USR approach that a number of us advocate as an alternative to SRv6.

If that isn’t correct, please let me know. As you may recall I already started a thread awhile ago to discuss IPv4 vs IPv6, and based on the responses it appeared to me at that time that there were some kind of options, though not a “native IPv4” solution, but it wasn’t clear to me (as a non-expert in the various networking protocols mentioned) whether they would be viable in practice or not. I will revive that thread and see if we can get any closer to determining the importance of IPv4 to our target customers, and hopefully some sense of whether the proposed non-native-IPv4 strategies will hold water.


Yes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a consensus of whether

a) We support v4
b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions
c) We use a single common IP approach
d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS

- Stewart

Ethan.

 

From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 12:29 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; Balázs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: DP solution (Flow identification)

 

 

 

On 16/01/2018 18:38, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Hi Bala’zs,

Regarding IPv4, I also understood that we decided that we can’t add new IPv4 fields. Pardon my ignorance here, but does that mean there is no part of DetNet capability that can be run over IPv4? Or is there some “workaround” to provide as I say even part of the DetNet capability, given that it is an Engineered network? I just want to clarify expectations here.


If you have a native IPv4 network to which you present IPv6 packets, you either have to tunnel them across where the IPv6 is considered opaque data, or you have to translate them to IPv4, but that requires some common semantics to deal with extension headers which we don't currently have.

So, as far as I can see, a decision not to support IPv4 means no DN support across the IPv4 network.

Which takes us back to the question of how important is this and what will it do to the take-up of the technology by its target customers?

- Stewart


Thanks,

Ethan.

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Balázs Varga A
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 10:21 AM
To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification)

 

I think the last mails are more about flow identification and not the sequence number.

So, I have re-subjected my answer.

 

PSN layer vs. DN layer (MPLS):

- in current data plane text we have stated that DetNet PWs may use dedicated LSPs (TE-tunnels).

That allow to identify DetNet flows in PSN layer without checking the PW label. Such a solution of

course may challenge scalability.

- regarding prioritization: text allows both E-LSP and L-LSP concept, what makes possible

to identify DetNet packets. However that is more for simple queuing scenarios as it does not

identify individual flows.

 

PSN layer vs. DN layer (non-MPLS):

- IPv4: If I remember correctly it was discussed to be out-of-scope to simplify the scenarios we focus on.

No-one wanted to define new IPv4 fields for flow-ID and Seq-Num in the “sunset of IPv4”.

- IPv6: based on the src-IPv6 and the flow-label NP can detect DetNet flows. Why would we need a new

IP protocol type?

 

Generic vs. DN aware data plane:

- I think we need both. We have use-cases specified for both.

 

DetNet traffic to be transported:

- two types are considered:

(1) Ethernet: IEEE TSN traffic encapsulated in Ethernet frames and

(2) IP: IPv6 transported over any L2 (not always Ethernet, but most cases Ethernet)

As noted above IPv4 is currently out-of-scope …

 

Cheers

Bala’zs

 

From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: 2018. január 16. 17:38
To: Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>; Balázs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

 

 

Andy

On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote:

Stewart,

 

Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be another PW type), targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central controller, NMS, etc.) are alternatives to RSVP and SR to provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW label.


.. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this purpose in VPNs


 

You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) case, we need a way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could have a new IP protocol type for DETNET, and a DETNET header directly follows the IP header. In that case, the DETNET header would also need a next protocol identifier, unless the next protocol is always another IP header.


Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP extension header, although I am not a fan of those since (a) I am not confident what a router will do one it does not understand, and (b) I am concerned about the need to support IPv4 which I suspect will have a long tail in enterprise deployment.

I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal support through any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers need to look a the UDP DP so checking if it is one they need to work on is just one compare and conditional branch.


 

Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the identifier.


Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this is sufficient.

- Stewart
 

 

Cheers,

Andy

 

 

On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:

If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer then we really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, but we could introduce the concept, for example by making this the property of the IP address or some way of MPLSing IP.

However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our expectation that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our expectation that at lest in some networks the data plane is generic with some DN nodes strategically placed?

I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers will all be DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most networks we need to design for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware.

- Stewart

 

On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote:

Hi Balazs,

 

#2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, seems there is no compatibility issue.

 

In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to differentiate a DetNet flow from a non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can process the CW as expected.  In TSN, it uses the priority to determine whether a flow is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the same way (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself implies the situation, but it seems that this only works when the DetNet service label is the top label.  

 

Any other thoughts?

 

Best regards,

Mach

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Balázs Varga A
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

 

Hi,

 

Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft.

This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering.

 

Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word:

- S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips zero.

It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448)

 

Possible problem resolutions:

#1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW:

      0                   1                   2                   3

      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

     |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0  |   16 bit Sequence Number      |

     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

D-bit: set to “1” means DetNet specific Seq. Number used,

Bit5-15: reserved.

 

RFC4448 states that reserved bits “MUST be ignored upon receipt”, so backward

compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer seq.num.

formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385.

 

#2: Making “0” as a valid Seq.Num.

DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet

domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions

(i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No

other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its

own sequence number processing algorithm. So “0” can be a valid number

and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with RFC4385.

 

#3: Other … ?!?

 

Comments are welcome.

 

Cheers

Bala'zs

 

-----Original Message-----
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger
Sent: 2018. január 10. 19:01
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim

 

is available for download at:

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301

 

raw notes are available at

http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01

 

Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording.

 

Lou (and co-chairs)

 

_______________________________________________

detnet mailing list

detnet@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 


_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 

 

 


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To: "Grossman, Ethan A." , DetNet WG , Deborah Brungard , Stewart Bryant CC: "Tim Chown (Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk)" Thread-Topic: DP solution (Flow identification) Thread-Index: AdOO8WeQkUBFFh6eTJW3b2FiGZCbsAABxtAwAB0tx4AAFCjAMAABImWAAAA+cQAAAFAo0A== Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 18:56:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9d8fab9f-b5dd-6df0-1463-1c0eb63e8cdc@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=eagros@dolby.com; x-originating-ip: [8.39.141.5] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BN6PR06MB2547; 7:d13iQJ6yV8VnK1RdtFAZZkC+8O1/0BuroTihRlK7c1X1NfCtagQ9wyDDhp81+8gDEbn5ZEHg2XqKxDSYSceg3gjVSMNlP0zcIW1iYCyombZowj2CAiYH94dSMq/TLGAGGsa5tJuMfTxGkDLe2ADhHsBDKu1W+aT28UPQNABdvqvZVCf0mWGoX9A5x3kOUSD8d8o7Ct+dBFmlhY7Bup4s+aBK9QqofUmeLkobC2fhLKCiLh0PD+uDcM4JMGFdgcfQ x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SSOS;SSOR; x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:SKI; 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[213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t138sm5048044wme.16.2018.01.17.11.01.34 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Jan 2018 11:01:35 -0800 (PST) To: "Grossman, Ethan A." , DetNet WG , Deborah Brungard Cc: "Tim Chown (Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk)" References: <9d8fab9f-b5dd-6df0-1463-1c0eb63e8cdc@gmail.com> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 19:01:33 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A176F80C96FF8B6157027E4E" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 19:01:44 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A176F80C96FF8B6157027E4E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A point I have made before and will continue to make: If the IETF does not maintain IPv4 appropriately until it's natural death, it will be declared critical national infrastructure by governments and they will effectively gift it to their SDO (the ITU-T). Such an organization may find it expedient to find many new ways to extend the life of IPv4. In any case I anticipate a very long tail on the IPv4 decay curve. We need to do what is right for our customers, some of whom may find it infeasible to migrate away from IPv4 any time soon. I will of course be interested in Deborah's directive on this. - Stewart On 17/01/2018 18:51, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > Thanks Stewart. Regarding: > > “Yes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a consensus > of whether > a) We support v4 > b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions > c) We use a single common IP approach > d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS” > > Perhaps, given Tim Chown’s earlier comment: > >         “If you’re suggesting an IPv4-only solution, you’re running up > against https://www.iab.org/2016/11/07/iab-statement-on-ipv6/.” > > We could get Deborah with her AD hat on to comment on this? > > Ethan. > > *From:*Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 17, 2018 10:39 AM > *To:* Grossman, Ethan A. ; Balázs Varga A > ; Andrew G. Malis > *Cc:* DetNet WG ; Mach Chen > *Subject:* Re: DP solution (Flow identification) > > Hi  Ethan, > > On 17/01/2018 18:24, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > Thanks Stewart for the clarification. I interpret your statement > “a decision not to support IPv4” to mean “a decision not to > propose adding anything to the existing IPv4 standard”. > > > To support IPv4 there are a number of methods that are possible, one > is to add something to v4 itself as is proposed for v6. Adding > something to the base protocol will be very difficult. > > Another method, is to do what has been proposed by some for MPLS, that > is to encode the identity and type in the IP address. There is a > proposal to do this in SRv6. I am not a great fan of abusing the > address space for this in the way proposed by that work, but maybe we > can do something much simpler here and simply identify the DN instance > by the IP address with no other semantics. Much easier to do this for > IPv6 with the "infinite addresses" but we could get away with it in > limited private Ipv4 networks. Of course this does change the per-hop > behaviour of IP which may be a challenge to get the IETF to sign of on. > > Another method is to use some method of carrying an MPLS label stack - > this was the first proposal. Now I said that I did not think anyone > had done that and I still believe that to be the case, but that does > not mean that it is not the least worst approach. There are alternates > for example IP/UDP/MPLS > which is the so called USR approach that a number of us advocate as an > alternative to SRv6. > > > If that isn’t correct, please let me know. As you may recall I > already started a thread awhile ago to discuss IPv4 vs IPv6, and > based on the responses it appeared to me at that time that there > were some kind of options, though not a “native IPv4” solution, > but it wasn’t clear to me (as a non-expert in the various > networking protocols mentioned) whether they would be viable in > practice or not. I will revive that thread and see if we can get > any closer to determining the importance of IPv4 to our target > customers, and hopefully some sense of whether the proposed > non-native-IPv4 strategies will hold water. > > > Yes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a consensus > of whether > > a) We support v4 > b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions > c) We use a single common IP approach > d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS > > - Stewart > > > Ethan. > > *From:*Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 17, 2018 12:29 AM > *To:* Grossman, Ethan A. > ; Balázs Varga A > > ; Andrew G. Malis > > *Cc:* DetNet WG ; Mach > Chen > *Subject:* Re: DP solution (Flow identification) > > On 16/01/2018 18:38, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > Hi Bala’zs, > > Regarding IPv4, I also understood that we decided that we > can’t add new IPv4 fields. Pardon my ignorance here, but does > that mean there is no part of DetNet capability that can be > run over IPv4? Or is there some “workaround” to provide as I > say even part of the DetNet capability, given that it is an > Engineered network? I just want to clarify expectations here. > > > If you have a native IPv4 network to which you present IPv6 > packets, you either have to tunnel them across where the IPv6 is > considered opaque data, or you have to translate them to IPv4, but > that requires some common semantics to deal with extension headers > which we don't currently have. > > So, as far as I can see, a decision not to support IPv4 means no > DN support across the IPv4 network. > > Which takes us back to the question of how important is this and > what will it do to the take-up of the technology by its target > customers? > > - Stewart > > > > Thanks, > > Ethan. > > *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of > *Balázs Varga A > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 16, 2018 10:21 AM > *To:* Stewart Bryant > ; Andrew G. Malis > > *Cc:* DetNet WG ; > Mach Chen > *Subject:* [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) > > I think the last mails are more about flow identification and > not the sequence number. > > So, I have re-subjected my answer. > > PSN layer vs. DN layer (MPLS): > > - in current data plane text we have stated that DetNet PWs > may use dedicated LSPs (TE-tunnels). > > That allow to identify DetNet flows in PSN layer without > checking the PW label. Such a solution of > > course may challenge scalability. > > - regarding prioritization: text allows both E-LSP and L-LSP > concept, what makes possible > > to identify DetNet packets. However that is more for simple > queuing scenarios as it does not > > identify individual flows. > > PSN layer vs. DN layer (non-MPLS): > > - IPv4: If I remember correctly it was discussed to be > out-of-scope to simplify the scenarios we focus on. > > No-one wanted to define new IPv4 fields for flow-ID and > Seq-Num in the “sunset of IPv4”. > > - IPv6: based on the src-IPv6 and the flow-label NP can detect > DetNet flows. Why would we need a new > > IP protocol type? > > Generic vs. DN aware data plane: > > - I think we need both. We have use-cases specified for both. > > DetNet traffic to be transported: > > - two types are considered: > > (1) Ethernet: IEEE TSN traffic encapsulated in Ethernet frames > and > > (2) IP: IPv6 transported over any L2 (not always Ethernet, but > most cases Ethernet) > > As noted above IPv4 is currently out-of-scope … > > Cheers > > Bala’zs > > *From:*Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com] > *Sent:* 2018. január 16. 17:38 > *To:* Andrew G. Malis > > *Cc:* Mach Chen >; Balázs Varga A > >; DetNet WG > > > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > > Andy > > On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > Stewart, > > Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be another > PW type), targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central > controller, NMS, etc.) are alternatives to RSVP and SR to > provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW label. > > > .. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this > purpose in VPNs > > > > You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) > case, we need a way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We > could have a new IP protocol type for DETNET, and a DETNET > header directly follows the IP header. In that case, the > DETNET header would also need a next protocol identifier, > unless the next protocol is always another IP header. > > > Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP > extension header, although I am not a fan of those since (a) I > am not confident what a router will do one it does not > understand, and (b) I am concerned about the need to support > IPv4 which I suspect will have a long tail in enterprise > deployment. > > I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal > support through any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers > need to look a the UDP DP so checking if it is one they need > to work on is just one compare and conditional branch. > > > > Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the identifier. > > > Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this is > sufficient. > > - Stewart > > Cheers, > > Andy > > On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant > > wrote: > > If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather > than the DN layer then we really are forced to create > a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one through > RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, but we > could introduce the concept, for example by making > this the property of the IP address or some way of > MPLSing IP. > > However there is a deeper question we need to answer. > Is our expectation that each hop in the data plane DN > aware, or is our expectation that at lest in some > networks the data plane is generic with some DN nodes > strategically placed? > > I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the > routers will all be DN aware, but in order to get > deployment in most networks we need to design for the > case where only strategic nodes are DN aware. > > - Stewart > > On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote: > > Hi Balazs, > > #2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is > dedicated for DetNet, seems there is no > compatibility issue. > > In addition, I think we need to define a way on > how to differentiate a DetNet flow from a > non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can > process the CW as expected.  In TSN, it uses the > priority to determine whether a flow is TSN or > non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the > same way (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service > Label itself implies the situation, but it seems > that this only works when the DetNet service label > is the top label. > > Any other thoughts? > > Best regards, > > Mach > > *From:* detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] > *On Behalf Of *Balázs Varga A > *Sent:* Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM > *To:* DetNet WG > > *Subject:* [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > > Hi, > > Some thoughts to start discussion on open points > of the DP solution draft. > > This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. > > Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: > > - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition > states that S/N skips zero. > > It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) > > Possible problem resolutions: > > #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of > the CW: > > 0 1 2                   3 > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 > 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0  | 16 bit Sequence > Number      | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > D-bit: set to “1” means DetNet specific Seq. > Number used, > > Bit5-15: reserved. > > RFC4448 states that reserved bits “MUST be ignored > upon receipt”, so backward > > compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would > allow also to use longer seq.num. > > formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline > with RFC4385. > > #2: Making “0” as a valid Seq.Num. > > DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special > within the DetNet > > domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by > DetNet Service functions > > (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and > DetNet relay-nodes. No > > other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore > DetNet can specify its > > own sequence number processing algorithm. So “0” > can be a valid number > > and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. > This is inline with RFC4385. > > #3: Other … ?!? > > Comments are welcome. > > Cheers > > Bala'zs > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Lou Berger > Sent: 2018. január 10. 19:01 > To: DetNet WG > > Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim > > is available for download at: > > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301 > > > raw notes are available at > > http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 > > > Please feel free to update the etherpad based on > the recording. > > Lou (and co-chairs) > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > --------------A176F80C96FF8B6157027E4E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

A point I have made before and will continue to make:

If the IETF does not maintain IPv4 appropriately until it's natural death, it will be declared critical national infrastructure by governments and they will effectively gift it to their SDO (the ITU-T). Such an organization may find it expedient to find many new ways to extend the life of IPv4. In any case I anticipate a very long tail on the IPv4 decay curve.

We need to do what is right for our customers, some of whom may find it infeasible to migrate away from IPv4 any time soon.

I will of course be interested in Deborah's directive on this.

- Stewart


On 17/01/2018 18:51, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Thanks Stewart. Regarding:

“Yes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a consensus of whether
a) We support v4
b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions
c) We use a single common IP approach
d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS”

Perhaps, given Tim Chown’s earlier comment:

        “If you’re suggesting an IPv4-only solution, you’re running up against https://www.iab.org/2016/11/07/iab-statement-on-ipv6/.”

 

We could get Deborah with her AD hat on to comment on this?

Ethan.

 

From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 10:39 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; Balázs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: DP solution (Flow identification)

 

Hi  Ethan,

 

On 17/01/2018 18:24, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Thanks Stewart for the clarification. I interpret your statement “a decision not to support IPv4” to mean “a decision not to propose adding anything to the existing IPv4 standard”.


To support IPv4 there are a number of methods that are possible, one is to add something to v4 itself as is proposed for v6. Adding something to the base protocol will be very difficult.

Another method, is to do what has been proposed by some for MPLS, that is to encode the identity and type in the IP address. There is a proposal to do this in SRv6. I am not a great fan of abusing the address space for this in the way proposed by that work, but maybe we can do something much simpler here and simply identify the DN instance by the IP address with no other semantics. Much easier to do this for IPv6 with the "infinite addresses" but we could get away with it in limited private Ipv4 networks. Of course this does change the per-hop behaviour of IP which may be a challenge to get the IETF to sign of on.

Another method is to use some method of carrying an MPLS label stack - this was the first proposal. Now I said that I did not think anyone had done that and I still believe that to be the case, but that does not mean that it is not the least worst approach. There are alternates for example IP/UDP/MPLS
which is the so called USR approach that a number of us advocate as an alternative to SRv6.


If that isn’t correct, please let me know. As you may recall I already started a thread awhile ago to discuss IPv4 vs IPv6, and based on the responses it appeared to me at that time that there were some kind of options, though not a “native IPv4” solution, but it wasn’t clear to me (as a non-expert in the various networking protocols mentioned) whether they would be viable in practice or not. I will revive that thread and see if we can get any closer to determining the importance of IPv4 to our target customers, and hopefully some sense of whether the proposed non-native-IPv4 strategies will hold water.


Yes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a consensus of whether

a) We support v4
b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions
c) We use a single common IP approach
d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS

- Stewart


Ethan.

 

From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 12:29 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; Balázs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: DP solution (Flow identification)

 

 

 

On 16/01/2018 18:38, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Hi Bala’zs,

Regarding IPv4, I also understood that we decided that we can’t add new IPv4 fields. Pardon my ignorance here, but does that mean there is no part of DetNet capability that can be run over IPv4? Or is there some “workaround” to provide as I say even part of the DetNet capability, given that it is an Engineered network? I just want to clarify expectations here.


If you have a native IPv4 network to which you present IPv6 packets, you either have to tunnel them across where the IPv6 is considered opaque data, or you have to translate them to IPv4, but that requires some common semantics to deal with extension headers which we don't currently have.

So, as far as I can see, a decision not to support IPv4 means no DN support across the IPv4 network.

Which takes us back to the question of how important is this and what will it do to the take-up of the technology by its target customers?

- Stewart



Thanks,

Ethan.

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Balázs Varga A
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 10:21 AM
To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification)

 

I think the last mails are more about flow identification and not the sequence number.

So, I have re-subjected my answer.

 

PSN layer vs. DN layer (MPLS):

- in current data plane text we have stated that DetNet PWs may use dedicated LSPs (TE-tunnels).

That allow to identify DetNet flows in PSN layer without checking the PW label. Such a solution of

course may challenge scalability.

- regarding prioritization: text allows both E-LSP and L-LSP concept, what makes possible

to identify DetNet packets. However that is more for simple queuing scenarios as it does not

identify individual flows.

 

PSN layer vs. DN layer (non-MPLS):

- IPv4: If I remember correctly it was discussed to be out-of-scope to simplify the scenarios we focus on.

No-one wanted to define new IPv4 fields for flow-ID and Seq-Num in the “sunset of IPv4”.

- IPv6: based on the src-IPv6 and the flow-label NP can detect DetNet flows. Why would we need a new

IP protocol type?

 

Generic vs. DN aware data plane:

- I think we need both. We have use-cases specified for both.

 

DetNet traffic to be transported:

- two types are considered:

(1) Ethernet: IEEE TSN traffic encapsulated in Ethernet frames and

(2) IP: IPv6 transported over any L2 (not always Ethernet, but most cases Ethernet)

As noted above IPv4 is currently out-of-scope …

 

Cheers

Bala’zs

 

From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: 2018. január 16. 17:38
To: Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>; Balázs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

 

 

Andy

On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote:

Stewart,

 

Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be another PW type), targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central controller, NMS, etc.) are alternatives to RSVP and SR to provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW label.


.. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this purpose in VPNs



 

You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) case, we need a way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could have a new IP protocol type for DETNET, and a DETNET header directly follows the IP header. In that case, the DETNET header would also need a next protocol identifier, unless the next protocol is always another IP header.


Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP extension header, although I am not a fan of those since (a) I am not confident what a router will do one it does not understand, and (b) I am concerned about the need to support IPv4 which I suspect will have a long tail in enterprise deployment.

I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal support through any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers need to look a the UDP DP so checking if it is one they need to work on is just one compare and conditional branch.



 

Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the identifier.


Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this is sufficient.

- Stewart
 

 

Cheers,

Andy

 

 

On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:

If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer then we really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, but we could introduce the concept, for example by making this the property of the IP address or some way of MPLSing IP.

However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our expectation that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our expectation that at lest in some networks the data plane is generic with some DN nodes strategically placed?

I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers will all be DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most networks we need to design for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware.

- Stewart

 

On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote:

Hi Balazs,

 

#2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, seems there is no compatibility issue.

 

In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to differentiate a DetNet flow from a non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can process the CW as expected.  In TSN, it uses the priority to determine whether a flow is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the same way (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself implies the situation, but it seems that this only works when the DetNet service label is the top label.  

 

Any other thoughts?

 

Best regards,

Mach

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Balázs Varga A
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

 

Hi,

 

Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft.

This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering.

 

Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word:

- S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips zero.

It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448)

 

Possible problem resolutions:

#1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW:

      0                   1                   2                   3

      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

     |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0  |   16 bit Sequence Number      |

     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

D-bit: set to “1” means DetNet specific Seq. Number used,

Bit5-15: reserved.

 

RFC4448 states that reserved bits “MUST be ignored upon receipt”, so backward

compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer seq.num.

formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385.

 

#2: Making “0” as a valid Seq.Num.

DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet

domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions

(i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No

other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its

own sequence number processing algorithm. So “0” can be a valid number

and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with RFC4385.

 

#3: Other … ?!?

 

Comments are welcome.

 

Cheers

Bala'zs

 

-----Original Message-----
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger
Sent: 2018. január 10. 19:01
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim

 

is available for download at:

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301

 

raw notes are available at

http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01

 

Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording.

 

Lou (and co-chairs)

 

_______________________________________________

detnet mailing list

detnet@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 


_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 

 

 

 


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with ESMTP id 947A940002CC; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 20:34:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from MISOUT7MSGHUBAH.ITServices.sbc.com (unknown [130.9.129.152]) by zlp27127.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTPS id 6B3C740002BC; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 20:34:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from MISOUT7MSGUSRDE.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.213]) by MISOUT7MSGHUBAH.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.9.129.152]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 15:34:20 -0500 From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" To: Stewart Bryant , "Grossman, Ethan A." , DetNet WG CC: "Tim Chown (Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk)" Thread-Topic: DP solution (Flow identification) Thread-Index: AQHTj8Q0eaC2JAG3ukKQQUfYJQTn6qN4v3eA//+5xfA= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 20:34:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9d8fab9f-b5dd-6df0-1463-1c0eb63e8cdc@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.205.234] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F64C10EAA68C8044B33656FA214632C888209E8DMISOUT7MSGUSRDE_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2018-01-17_10:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1801170277 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 20:34:43 -0000 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To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" , Stewart Bryant , DetNet WG CC: "Tim Chown (Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk)" Thread-Topic: DP solution (Flow identification) Thread-Index: AdOO8WeQkUBFFh6eTJW3b2FiGZCbsAABxtAwAB0tx4AAFCjAMAABImWAAAA+cQAAAI20gAADPWaAAABrskQ= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 20:47:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9d8fab9f-b5dd-6df0-1463-1c0eb63e8cdc@gmail.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=eagros@dolby.com; x-originating-ip: [8.39.141.5] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BN6PR06MB3268; 7:Mq861EmqDpNm2iIJqB9we8RWXGqMQtgZnsqJZiCp53IavwsJbRLtbtYvXcf3C0Mk/Lqz18qxIA7oqlpHw9Ibn8egZe/Xkk/YljXuvUkYQ9DD5hWzWMHtzI4wBG062j0riTcE/i/nPV8mluZOx2/G0wn5Sx21Bg8jMQ0CiY/BU8Y4oh0j+usKIO2YodMwY6Dc9Xz8Uf10AVvqGUeso3W9Dwu/USpL/tzutPJtRVo7p7HB8eQeavBMRourJ+y3lw09 x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SSOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 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8fLaxJt9XBMH7E0c1mX/AnCMfw4QdKvrxFghjiX1bVgC1XHB7nL1pYW5NRJRW7yVkXlyfKfL+z7dxgHJKGrEyg== spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BN6PR06MB25476A3D05CFA2F4FEABC75DC4E90BN6PR06MB2547namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: dolby.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 998e37fc-a895-46d1-35f4-08d55deb8633 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Jan 2018 20:47:29.2212 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 05408d25-cd0d-40c8-8962-5462de64a318 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN6PR06MB3268 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 20:47:38 -0000 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--_000_BN6PR06MB25476A3D05CFA2F4FEABC75DC4E90BN6PR06MB2547namp_-- From nobody Wed Jan 17 13:06:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 176C812E8B1 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 13:06:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pLjh0Kon8QHD for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 13:06:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy5-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com 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Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID: In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=fk4OVNTsFmIqwgjYCOqGPRERBe0QqJEjLZF5pEerjxo=; b=EoyGpeaxagCQvSIGfMHwqVbRch izqbR6VDBD9IYydJ+CQOI80QpqkX3F5iT2IbbazUOLncaRK24h6UXbFNlpsd+5m1NcJm2Nng5nCRU ibAMRucWFgLmp2S7WtcDJOjAi; Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:55754 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1ebtmT-004MOi-LB for detnet@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 12:53:53 -0700 To: DetNet WG From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 14:53:50 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1ebtmT-004MOi-LB X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.86.101]:55754 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 10 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] some reminders on charter X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 21:06:35 -0000 Some of the discussion leads me to want to remind the WG of a few things from our charter: 1) network size/scope.  We are not trying to solve the "Internet" or even the general multi-domain problem, but rather solutions for networks that are under a single administrative control or within a closed group of  administrative control. 2) encapsulation: We are chartered to define the encapsulation used by DetNet flows.   We are not expected to come up with new encapsulations, but rather how DetNet uses what exists today.  As a group, while we once discussed documenting this in terms of existing RFCs (e.g., PW, PWE3, EVPN), we have decided to define the encapsulation in a more independent form. This is fine, but doesn't change that we are expected to reuse encapsulations that exist today. Note that use of MPLS (in any flavor including TE,  SR, and perhaps even SR-TE) and other L3 technologies such as PW and GRE by DetNet is in scope. 3) IP version: Our charter talks about using IP.  It doesn't include or preclude any specific version.  Certainly support IPv6 is required.  Support for IPv4 (service or transport) is not out of scope per charter. 4) Topics that are out of scope: As a reminder, control plane is currently out of scope of our charter.  We certainly are expected to identify the information needed for flow establishment and control and be used by reservation protocols and YANG data models (which are in charter). This may include, for example, how one or more DetNet flows are mapped to MPLS (TE) LSPs, but does not include any LDP, RSVP-TE or SR-related control plane changes.  As a group, we may want to ask the IESG to revisit this, but I suggest that not consider or discuss this until we have a Data Plane defined and, perhaps, the rest of our deliverables largely completed. While it is often constructive to brainstorm and consider what *might* be done, please consider our charter scope to help focus your proposals and discussions on what *should* be done in detnet. Cheers, Lou From nobody Wed Jan 17 14:12:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A83D712D869 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 14:12:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.697 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YY7ctyFBLvto for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 14:12:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw0-x22d.google.com (mail-yw0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2ACF112D856 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 14:12:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id c78so9589638ywb.13 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 14:12:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=user-agent:date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id:thread-topic :mime-version; bh=b3gir3KFong/kxzvSG/lNHxmu11RfWdEOKX22BJuf7I=; b=aaXzwr3VP6IvhO9Fu8/pq6C0sUEtPAzopJ0l3y6bhUtxxxmFkd3PHlaxofCFXO7Nnk vc8IsEeIGbyCt6a2MTko5ZWNOxvcOr4OuQ1dPodzk37xxdVA3aPSBFrmFPmhGUZGvDLw w4WXoTJzlX7hPpz786QcG9ESWMsnh4LweAtblEJ3tnl9oBNnOxs/iP+6y0kEs5ac4Y7h 1xSMUQ5Nmkwb0qZBigC1KPIWdZSsXfT4/3mjIsk7WPGTi2TRsqNZQ4p+0cCikx22sWez xC+vv5i8LBdxYh1vyrLFmAxiYQ7xWBE3jAizcT7F3WNn6Z4tahz0zpcu/Df8aJS2WSdA Fv1g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:user-agent:date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id :thread-topic:mime-version; bh=b3gir3KFong/kxzvSG/lNHxmu11RfWdEOKX22BJuf7I=; b=rqqA7OdOUfVZZPqKGDx8ZsF1twdQh1v8GGROAS0qP9iQqKCBdu9PtJMtSswcdu+dMS K6pofgAMJKVUs6ndHH6MH+En/tOaTuohO6D+74GsivEOc3FICW+HYehMhN8tnPlqzIR2 G5T+toRdsOhQHE6uEmNcgte36xrV5QS2Yxv5zMwzNqk8KM/Igk3WZK6FiyZVlMVz+DxQ QPR3xYZr6RaFgGkRgIWdcjLBLGHW5XOh6PqT0KQ6t/Guwrvl16EnL/VjDJD8yfeGTk2O IBau3WcUXI+AJ10la6n4jVltm/U1/N9u1lQM3xhlZYxtPqDZkKItRs58trcLXVYWYvuD H1zw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxyteFg25RzpvglaTXhvPDH6DULRc+KaJc07qBdwCpwhNKe8tzojKh xcCZK7n8II20yJZs/Tf98+U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBotyBCEooMoGR+vQD1glkZ9r9X8ngsEhULBLWLbsMnHPp5s+mvxPz5BnAXK/8LGLXZ2JkbgiOA== X-Received: by 10.13.197.193 with SMTP id h184mr4064490ywd.514.1516227158915; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 14:12:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [135.227.131.156] ([66.201.62.254]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o15sm2207027ywm.6.2018.01.17.14.12.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Jan 2018 14:12:38 -0800 (PST) User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.27.0.171010 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 14:12:34 -0800 From: Jeff Tantsura To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" , Stewart Bryant , "Grossman, Ethan A." , DetNet WG CC: "Tim Chown (Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk)" Message-ID: <426B8B09-A248-4180-B948-0CBA95904F89@gmail.com> Thread-Topic: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3599043157_1861973360" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 22:12:47 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3599043157_1861973360 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Speaking on behalf of IAB =E2=80=93 building a IPv4 only solution would be a rath= er unfortunate direction and very much against IAB statement ( https://www.i= ab.org/2016/11/07/iab-statement-on-ipv6/). =20 Cheers, Jeff =20 From: detnet on behalf of "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" <= db3546@att.com> Date: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 12:34 To: Stewart Bryant , "Grossman, Ethan A." , DetNet WG Cc: "Tim Chown (Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk)" Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) =20 I don=E2=80=99t want to influence your discussion on solution(s). =20 As mails are getting crossed, and not having Tim=E2=80=99s original comment, I th= ink as Ethan later says in a mail after this one =E2=80=93 the IAB concern would b= e if doing an =E2=80=9CIPv4-only=E2=80=9D solution. Many working groups are still doing = work supporting IPv4 networks. The discussion when it reaches the IESG =E2=80=93 c= an IPv6 support be included in the same document or is there work on-going t= o support IPv6 (and the IPv6 solution does not depend on IPv4). =20 The charter for detnet is not to sunset IPv4=F0=9F=98=8A If you have operational us= e cases for supporting IPv4, then as you are doing, it is important to discu= ss the deployment requirements e.g. closed network, IPv4-IPv6 islands, etc.,= so as to understand the best solution. =20 My interpretation of the IAB statement is to give guidance on prioritizing = work for IPv6. Unless you have large user groups requiring IPv4-only, then y= our priority should be in developing an IPv6 solution. And the IPv4 solution= should not limit the IPv6 solution. =20 Deborah =20 =20 From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 2:02 PM To: Grossman, Ethan A. ; DetNet WG ; BRU= NGARD, DEBORAH A Cc: Tim Chown (Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk) Subject: Re: DP solution (Flow identification) =20 A point I have made before and will continue to make: If the IETF does not maintain IPv4 appropriately until it's natural death, = it will be declared critical national infrastructure by governments and they= will effectively gift it to their SDO (the ITU-T). Such an organization may= find it expedient to find many new ways to extend the life of IPv4. In any = case I anticipate a very long tail on the IPv4 decay curve. We need to do what is right for our customers, some of whom may find it inf= easible to migrate away from IPv4 any time soon. I will of course be interested in Deborah's directive on this. - Stewart =20 On 17/01/2018 18:51, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: Thanks Stewart. Regarding:=20 =E2=80=9CYes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a consensus of= whether a) We support v4 b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions c) We use a single common IP approach d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS=E2=80=9D Perhaps, given Tim Chown=E2=80=99s earlier comment: =E2=80=9CIf you=E2=80=99re suggesting an IPv4-only solution, you=E2=80=99re running u= p against https://www.iab.org/2016/11/07/iab-statement-on-ipv6/.=E2=80=9D =20 We could get Deborah with her AD hat on to comment on this?=20 Ethan. =20 From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 10:39 AM To: Grossman, Ethan A. ; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A ; Andrew G. Malis Cc: DetNet WG ; Mach Chen Subject: Re: DP solution (Flow identification) =20 Hi Ethan, =20 On 17/01/2018 18:24, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: Thanks Stewart for the clarification. I interpret your statement =E2=80=9Ca decis= ion not to support IPv4=E2=80=9D to mean =E2=80=9Ca decision not to propose adding anyth= ing to the existing IPv4 standard=E2=80=9D.=20 To support IPv4 there are a number of methods that are possible, one is to = add something to v4 itself as is proposed for v6. Adding something to the ba= se protocol will be very difficult. Another method, is to do what has been proposed by some for MPLS, that is t= o encode the identity and type in the IP address. There is a proposal to do = this in SRv6. I am not a great fan of abusing the address space for this in = the way proposed by that work, but maybe we can do something much simpler he= re and simply identify the DN instance by the IP address with no other seman= tics. Much easier to do this for IPv6 with the "infinite addresses" but we c= ould get away with it in limited private Ipv4 networks. Of course this does = change the per-hop behaviour of IP which may be a challenge to get the IETF = to sign of on. Another method is to use some method of carrying an MPLS label stack - this= was the first proposal. Now I said that I did not think anyone had done tha= t and I still believe that to be the case, but that does not mean that it is= not the least worst approach. There are alternates for example IP/UDP/MPLS which is the so called USR approach that a number of us advocate as an alte= rnative to SRv6. If that isn=E2=80=99t correct, please let me know. As you may recall I already st= arted a thread awhile ago to discuss IPv4 vs IPv6, and based on the response= s it appeared to me at that time that there were some kind of options, thoug= h not a =E2=80=9Cnative IPv4=E2=80=9D solution, but it wasn=E2=80=99t clear to me (as a non-ex= pert in the various networking protocols mentioned) whether they would be vi= able in practice or not. I will revive that thread and see if we can get any= closer to determining the importance of IPv4 to our target customers, and h= opefully some sense of whether the proposed non-native-IPv4 strategies will = hold water.=20 Yes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a consensus of wh= ether a) We support v4 b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions c) We use a single common IP approach d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS - Stewart Ethan. =20 From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 12:29 AM To: Grossman, Ethan A. ; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A ; Andrew G. Malis Cc: DetNet WG ; Mach Chen Subject: Re: DP solution (Flow identification) =20 =20 =20 On 16/01/2018 18:38, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: Hi Bala=E2=80=99zs, Regarding IPv4, I also understood that we decided that we can=E2=80=99t add new I= Pv4 fields. Pardon my ignorance here, but does that mean there is no part of= DetNet capability that can be run over IPv4? Or is there some =E2=80=9Cworkaround= =E2=80=9D to provide as I say even part of the DetNet capability, given that it is= an Engineered network? I just want to clarify expectations here.=20 If you have a native IPv4 network to which you present IPv6 packets, you ei= ther have to tunnel them across where the IPv6 is considered opaque data, or= you have to translate them to IPv4, but that requires some common semantics= to deal with extension headers which we don't currently have. So, as far as I can see, a decision not to support IPv4 means no DN support= across the IPv4 network. Which takes us back to the question of how important is this and what will = it do to the take-up of the technology by its target customers? - Stewart Thanks, Ethan. =20 From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 10:21 AM To: Stewart Bryant ; Andrew G. Malis Cc: DetNet WG ; Mach Chen Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) =20 I think the last mails are more about flow identification and not the seque= nce number. So, I have re-subjected my answer. =20 PSN layer vs. DN layer (MPLS): - in current data plane text we have stated that DetNet PWs may use dedicat= ed LSPs (TE-tunnels).=20 That allow to identify DetNet flows in PSN layer without checking the PW la= bel. Such a solution of=20 course may challenge scalability. - regarding prioritization: text allows both E-LSP and L-LSP concept, what = makes possible=20 to identify DetNet packets. However that is more for simple queuing scenari= os as it does not identify individual flows.=20 =20 PSN layer vs. DN layer (non-MPLS): - IPv4: If I remember correctly it was discussed to be out-of-scope to simp= lify the scenarios we focus on.=20 No-one wanted to define new IPv4 fields for flow-ID and Seq-Num in the =E2=80=9Cs= unset of IPv4=E2=80=9D. - IPv6: based on the src-IPv6 and the flow-label NP can detect DetNet flows= . Why would we need a new=20 IP protocol type?=20 =20 Generic vs. DN aware data plane: - I think we need both. We have use-cases specified for both. =20 DetNet traffic to be transported: - two types are considered:=20 (1) Ethernet: IEEE TSN traffic encapsulated in Ethernet frames and=20 (2) IP: IPv6 transported over any L2 (not always Ethernet, but most cases E= thernet) As noted above IPv4 is currently out-of-scope =E2=80=A6 =20 Cheers Bala=E2=80=99zs =20 From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]=20 Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 16. 17:38 To: Andrew G. Malis Cc: Mach Chen ; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A ; DetNet WG Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) =20 =20 Andy On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote: Stewart,=20 =20 Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be another PW type), target= ed LDP and provisioning (via a central controller, NMS, etc.) are alternativ= es to RSVP and SR to provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW label. .. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this purpose in VPNs =20 You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) case, we need a way f= or the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could have a new IP protocol type for D= ETNET, and a DETNET header directly follows the IP header. In that case, the= DETNET header would also need a next protocol identifier, unless the next p= rotocol is always another IP header. Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP extension header, al= though I am not a fan of those since (a) I am not confident what a router wi= ll do one it does not understand, and (b) I am concerned about the need to s= upport IPv4 which I suspect will have a long tail in enterprise deployment. I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal support through= any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers need to look a the UDP DP so = checking if it is one they need to work on is just one compare and condition= al branch. =20 Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the identifier.=20 Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this is sufficient. - Stewart =20 =20 Cheers, Andy =20 =20 On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant = wrote: If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer then w= e really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one thr= ough RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, but we could introduce t= he concept, for example by making this the property of the IP address or som= e way of MPLSing IP. However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our expectation th= at each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our expectation that at lest i= n some networks the data plane is generic with some DN nodes strategically p= laced? I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers will all be = DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most networks we need to design = for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware. - Stewart =20 On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote: Hi Balazs, =20 #2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, seems = there is no compatibility issue. =20 In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to differentiate a DetN= et flow from a non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can process the C= W as expected. In TSN, it uses the priority to determine whether a flow is = TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the same way (e.g., TC, = DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself implies the situation, but it seem= s that this only works when the DetNet service label is the top label. =20 =20 Any other thoughts? =20 Best regards, Mach =20 From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM To: DetNet WG Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) =20 Hi, =20 Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft. This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. =20 Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips zero= . It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) =20 Possible problem resolutions: #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0 | 16 bit Sequence Number | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ D-bit: set to =E2=80=9C1=E2=80=9D means DetNet specific Seq. Number used, Bit5-15: reserved. =20 RFC4448 states that reserved bits =E2=80=9CMUST be ignored upon receipt=E2=80=9D, so ba= ckward=20 compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer se= q.num.=20 formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385. =20 #2: Making =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D as a valid Seq.Num. DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet=20 domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions=20 (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No=20 other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its=20 own sequence number processing algorithm. So =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D can be a valid number and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with RFC438= 5. =20 #3: Other =E2=80=A6 ?!? =20 Comments are welcome. =20 Cheers Bala'zs =20 -----Original Message----- From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 10. 19:01 To: DetNet WG Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim =20 is available for download at:=20 https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3De5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301 =20 raw notes are available at=20 http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 =20 Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording. =20 Lou (and co-chairs) =20 _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet =20 _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet =20 _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@= ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=20 --B_3599043157_1861973360 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Speak= ing on behalf of IAB =E2=80=93 building a IPv4 only solution would be a rather unf= ortunate direction and very much against IAB statement ( https://www.iab.org/2016/= 11/07/iab-statement-on-ipv6/).

<= span style=3D'color:windowtext'> 

Cheers,

Jeff

 

From: detnet &l= t;detnet-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" &= lt;db3546@att.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 12:34To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "Grossman= , Ethan A." <eagros@dolby.com>, DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>=
Cc: "Tim Chown (Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk)" <Tim.Chown@ji= sc.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identificatio= n)

 

I don=E2=80=99t want to influence your discussion on solution(s).=

&nbs= p;

As= mails are getting crossed, and not having Tim=E2=80=99s original comment, I think= as Ethan later says in a mail after this one =E2=80=93 the IAB concern would be i= f doing an =E2=80=9CIPv4-only=E2=80=9D solution. Many working groups are still doing wor= k supporting IPv4 networks. The discussion when it reaches the IESG =E2=80=93 can = IPv6 support be included in the same document or is there work on-going to s= upport IPv6 (and the IPv6 solution does not depend on IPv4).

 

The charter for de= tnet is not to sunset IPv4 

<= div>

From:<= /b> Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gma= il.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 2:02 PM
To: G= rossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>= ;; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A <db3546@att.com>
Cc: Tim Chown (Tim.C= hown@jisc.ac.uk) <Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: DP solu= tion (Flow identification)

 

A point I have made before and will continue to m= ake:

If the IETF does not maintain IPv4 appropriately until= it's natural death, it will be declared critical national infrastructure by= governments and they will effectively gift it to their SDO (the ITU-T). Suc= h an organization may find it expedient to find many new ways to extend the = life of IPv4. In any case I anticipate a very long tail on the IPv4 decay cu= rve.

We need to do what is right for our customers, some of= whom may find it infeasible to migrate away from IPv4 any time soon.

I will of course be interested in Deborah's directive on this.

- Stewart

 <= /p>

On 17/01/2018 18:51, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

<= p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks Stewart. Regarding: =

=E2=80=9CYes, we need to = have the discussion on the list and reach a consensus of whether
a) We su= pport v4
b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extension= s
c) We use a single common IP approach
d) We use an approach that is = common across IP and MPLS=E2=80=9D



Perhaps, given Tim Chown=E2=80=99s earlier= comment:

        =E2=80=9CIf you=E2=80=99re suggesting an= IPv4-only solution, you=E2=80=99re running up against https://www.iab.org/2016/11/07/iab-sta= tement-on-ipv6/.=E2=80=9D

 

We could get Deborah with her AD hat on to comment on t= his?

Ethan.

 

From: Stewart B= ryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail= .com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 10:39 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com&= gt;; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A <ba= lazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Subject: Re= : DP solution (Flow identification)

 

Hi  Ethan,

 

On 17/01/2018 18:24, G= rossman, Ethan A. wrote:

= Thanks Stewart for the clarification. I interpret your statement =E2=80=9Ca decisi= on not to support IPv4=E2=80=9D to mean =E2=80=9Ca decision not to propose adding anythi= ng to the existing IPv4 standard=E2=80=9D.


To support IPv4 there are a number of methods that are possible, o= ne is to add something to v4 itself as is proposed for v6. Adding something = to the base protocol will be very difficult.

Another method, is to do= what has been proposed by some for MPLS, that is to encode the identity and= type in the IP address. There is a proposal to do this in SRv6. I am not a = great fan of abusing the address space for this in the way proposed by that = work, but maybe we can do something much simpler here and simply identify th= e DN instance by the IP address with no other semantics. Much easier to do t= his for IPv6 with the "infinite addresses" but we could get away w= ith it in limited private Ipv4 networks. Of course this does change the per-= hop behaviour of IP which may be a challenge to get the IETF to sign of on.<= br>
Another method is to use some method of carrying an MPLS label stack = - this was the first proposal. Now I said that I did not think anyone had do= ne that and I still believe that to be the case, but that does not mean that= it is not the least worst approach. There are alternates for example IP/UDP= /MPLS
which is the so called USR approach that a number of us advocate as= an alternative to SRv6.




If that isn=E2=80=99t correct, please let me know. As you may= recall I already started a thread awhile ago to discuss IPv4 vs IPv6, and b= ased on the responses it appeared to me at that time that there were some ki= nd of options, though not a =E2=80=9Cnative IPv4=E2=80=9D solution, but it wasn=E2=80=99t clea= r to me (as a non-expert in the various networking protocols mentioned) whet= her they would be viable in practice or not. I will revive that thread and s= ee if we can get any closer to determining the importance of IPv4 to our tar= get customers, and hopefully some sense of whether the proposed non-native-I= Pv4 strategies will hold water.


Yes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a consensus o= f whether

a) We support v4
b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 sp= ecific protocol extensions
c) We use a single common IP approach
d) We= use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS

- Stewart

<= br>

Ethan.

 

From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2= 018 12:29 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; Bal=C3= =A1zs Varga A <balazs.a= .varga@ericsson.com>; Andrew G. Malis = <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; M= ach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.c= om>
Subject: Re: DP solution= (Flow identification)

&= nbsp;

 

 

On 16/01/2018 18:38, Grossman, Ethan A. wrot= e:

Hi Bala=E2=80=99zs,

Regarding IPv= 4, I also understood that we decided that we can=E2=80=99t add new IPv4 fields. Pa= rdon my ignorance here, but does that mean there is no part of DetNet capabi= lity that can be run over IPv4? Or is there some =E2=80=9Cworkaround=E2=80=9D to provide= as I say even part of the DetNet capability, given that it is an Engineered= network? I just want to clarify expectations here.


If you have a native IPv4 network to which you pres= ent IPv6 packets, you either have to tunnel them across where the IPv6 is co= nsidered opaque data, or you have to translate them to IPv4, but that requir= es some common semantics to deal with extension headers which we don't curre= ntly have.

So, as far as I can see, a decision not to support IPv4 me= ans no DN support across the IPv4 network.

Which takes us back to the= question of how important is this and what will it do to the take-up of the= technology by its target customers?

- Stewart




Thanks,

Ethan.<= /o:p>

 

F= rom: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A
Sent: Tuesda= y, January 16, 2018 10:21 AM
To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc:= DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org&g= t;; Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification)

 

I think the last mails are more about= flow identification and not the sequence number.

So, I have re-subjected my answ= er.

&= nbsp;

PSN layer vs. DN layer (MPLS):

- in current data plane text we have stated that = DetNet PWs may use dedicated LSPs (TE-tunnels).

That allow to identify DetNet fl= ows in PSN layer without checking the PW label. Such a solution of

course may ch= allenge scalability.

- regarding prioritization: text allows both E-LSP and L-LSP= concept, what makes possible

to identify DetNet packets. However that is more f= or simple queuing scenarios as it does not

identify individual flows.

 

PSN layer vs.= DN layer (non-MPLS):

- IPv4: If I remember correctly it was discussed to be out-= of-scope to simplify the scenarios we focus on.

No-one wanted to define new IPv4= fields for flow-ID and Seq-Num in the =E2=80=9Csunset of IPv4=E2=80=9D.

- IPv6: based on the= src-IPv6 and the flow-label NP can detect DetNet flows. Why would we need a= new

IP protocol type?

 

Generic vs. DN aware data plane:

- I think we need both. We have= use-cases specified for both.

 

DetNet traffic to be transported:

- two types are con= sidered:

<= span style=3D'color:windowtext'>(1) Ethernet: IEEE TSN traffic encapsulated in= Ethernet frames and

(2) IP: IPv6 transported over any = L2 (not always Ethernet, but most cases Ethernet)

As not= ed above IPv4 is currently out-of-scope =E2=80=A6

 

Cheers

Bala=E2=80=99zs

 

=

From:= Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 16. 17:38
To: Andr= ew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com<= /a>>
Cc: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.o= rg>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP= solution (Sequence Numbering)

 

 

Andy

On 16/01/= 2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote:

Stewart,

 

Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be another PW type), = targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central controller, NMS, etc.) are alte= rnatives to RSVP and SR to provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW label.=


.. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this purpose= in VPNs





 

You and Mach are both right that in the IP (= non-MPLS) case, we need a way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could ha= ve a new IP protocol type for DETNET, and a DETNET header directly follows t= he IP header. In that case, the DETNET header would also need a next protoco= l identifier, unless the next protocol is always another IP header.


Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP extension head= er, although I am not a fan of those since (a) I am not confident what a rou= ter will do one it does not understand, and (b) I am concerned about the nee= d to support IPv4 which I suspect will have a long tail in enterprise deploy= ment.

I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal sup= port through any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers need to look a th= e UDP DP so checking if it is one they need to work on is just one compare a= nd conditional branch.





 = ;

Of course, for MPLS, the DETNE= T PW label is the identifier.


Only at the PW layer. Note my = question about whether this is sufficient.

- Stewart
 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

Cheers,=

Andy

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

&= nbsp;

On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM,= Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:

If= we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer then we r= eally are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one throug= h RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, but we could introduce the = concept, for example by making this the property of the IP address or some w= ay of MPLSing IP.

However there is a deeper question we nee= d to answer. Is our expectation that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or= is our expectation that at lest in some networks the data plane is generic = with some DN nodes strategically placed?

I can see than in = some greenfield specialist cases the routers will all be DN aware, but in or= der to get deployment in most networks we need to design for the case where = only strategic nodes are DN aware.

- Stewart

 <= /o:p>

On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote:<= /o:p>

Hi Balazs,

 

#= 2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, seems th= ere is no compatibility issue.

 

In addition,= I think we need to define a way on how to differentiate a DetNet flow from = a non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can process the CW as expected= .  In TSN, it uses the priority to determine whether a flow is TSN or n= on-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the same way (e.g., TC, DSCP)? O= r the DetNet service Label itself implies the situation, but it seems that t= his only works when the DetNet service label is the top label.  =

 

<= span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Any other thoughts?

 

Best regards,

Mach

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM
To: DetNet WG <detnet@iet= f.org>
Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

 

Hi,

&n= bsp;

Some thoughts t= o start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft.

This mail(-thread) is on sequence nu= mbering.

 =

Problem in case of MPLS = and DetNet Control Word:

- S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips = zero.

It uses zero t= o mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448)

 

P= ossible problem resolutions:

#1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW:

      0&nb= sp;            &= nbsp;     1       &nb= sp;           2  = ;            &nb= sp;    3

&nb= sp;     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 = 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

  = ;   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+

    = ; |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0  |   16 bit Sequence Number&= nbsp;     |

     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

D-bit: set to =E2=80=9C1=E2=80=9D means DetNet specific Seq. Number used,

Bit5-15: reserved.

 

RFC4448 states that reserved bits =E2=80=9CMUST= be ignored upon receipt=E2=80=9D, so backward

compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow = also to use longer seq.num.

formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385.

 

#2: Making =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D as a valid Seq.Nu= m.

DetNet flows are = recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet

domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain= by DetNet Service functions

(i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-no= des. No

other nodes= care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its

own sequence number processing a= lgorithm. So =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D can be a valid number

and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This= is inline with RFC4385.

 

#3: Othe= r =E2=80=A6 ?!?

 

Comments are welcome.

 

=

Cheers

Bala'zs

 

-----Original Message-----
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf O= f Lou Berger
Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 10. 19:01
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: = [Detnet] recording for today's interim

 

is available for download at:

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3De5116bc7db254c24a7b= b3217bf202301

 

raw note= s are available at

= http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01=

 

Please feel free to u= pdate the etherpad based on the recording.

 

Lou (and co-chairs)

 

___= ____________________________________________

detnet mailing list

detnet@ietf.org=

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
<=
a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_ma=
ilman_listinfo_detnet&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DlI8Zb6TzM3d1tX4iEu7bpg&r=3DZcHC6w=
X_gDwPDcfMaFNZiQ&m=3DWw506GT5I1lpl0z4wh0NtK-sdaqjAfwQf7dIWKBfMjs&s=3DhS9=
_HI114vlyT-MDJVp5eK8h7URobpcWbBt9njrFQMI&e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www=
.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 


_______________________________________________
= detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org<= br>https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

 

 

 

 

_= ______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ie= tf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

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(PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.17.189 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 14:29:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 17:29:14 -0500 Message-ID: To: Lou Berger Cc: DetNet WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1140bad4c4957c0563006123" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] some reminders on charter X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 22:29:39 -0000 --001a1140bad4c4957c0563006123 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Lou, 2) encapsulation: We are chartered to define the encapsulation used by > DetNet flows. We are not expected to come up with new encapsulations, but > rather how DetNet uses what exists today. As a group, while we once > discussed documenting this in terms of existing RFCs (e.g., PW, PWE3, > EVPN), we have decided to define the encapsulation in a more independent > form. This is fine, but doesn't change that we are expected to reuse > encapsulations that exist today. Given that PWs are in charter, Stewart and I as PALS chairs agree that DETNET should be able to define a PW control word to optimize the solution to the problem space, especially since it would still conform to figure 1 of RFC 4385. Cheers, Andy --001a1140bad4c4957c0563006123 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lou,

2) encapsulation: We are chartered to define= the encapsulation used by DetNet flows.=C2=A0=C2=A0 We are not expected to= come up with new encapsulations, but rather how DetNet uses what exists to= day.=C2=A0 As a group, while we once discussed documenting this in terms of= existing RFCs (e.g., PW, PWE3, EVPN), we have decided to define the encaps= ulation in a more independent form. This is fine, but doesn't change th= at we are expected to reuse encapsulations that exist today.

Given that PWs are in charter, Stewart and I as PA= LS chairs agree that DETNET should be able to define a PW control word to o= ptimize the solution to the problem space, especially since it would still = conform to figure 1 of RFC 4385.

Cheers,
Andy


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Wed, 17 Jan 2018 14:59:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from JOKO ([83.150.126.201]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n15sm1052021ljb.21.2018.01.17.14.59.18 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Jan 2018 14:59:19 -0800 (PST) From: "Jouni" To: Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 00:59:17 +0200 Message-ID: <0cb101d38fe6$ce414370$6ac3ca50$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AdOP5qXI/Tqwi9yMQ9uI1GrGMKNf+g== Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] data plane draft repository X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 22:59:23 -0000 Folks, The work in progress data plane draft XML source file can be found at: https://github.com/jounikor/draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol - Jouni From nobody Wed Jan 17 15:03:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2D9C127241 for ; 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Received: from [172.58.185.95] (port=46335 helo=[IPV6:2607:fb90:6505:8e19:0:4e:ebc5:4d01]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1ebwiv-000yDU-3J; Wed, 17 Jan 2018 16:02:25 -0700 From: Lou Berger To: "Andrew G. Malis" CC: DetNet WG Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 18:02:22 -0500 Message-ID: <161065be448.27d3.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: AquaMail/1.13.2-730 (build: 101300200) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------161065be8bb7bdc27d3716f5d1" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 172.58.185.95 X-Exim-ID: 1ebwiv-000yDU-3J X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPV6:2607:fb90:6505:8e19:0:4e:ebc5:4d01]) [172.58.185.95]:46335 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] some reminders on charter X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 23:03:56 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------161065be8bb7bdc27d3716f5d1 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Andy, Just to be clear , pseudo wires are in Charter as an example. An equally valid example would have been evpn's encapsulation... Lou Liu On January 17, 2018 5:30:13 PM "Andrew G. Malis" wrote: > Lou, > > 2) encapsulation: We are chartered to define the encapsulation used by >> DetNet flows. We are not expected to come up with new encapsulations, but >> rather how DetNet uses what exists today. As a group, while we once >> discussed documenting this in terms of existing RFCs (e.g., PW, PWE3, >> EVPN), we have decided to define the encapsulation in a more independent >> form. This is fine, but doesn't change that we are expected to reuse >> encapsulations that exist today. > > > Given that PWs are in charter, Stewart and I as PALS chairs agree that > DETNET should be able to define a PW control word to optimize the solution > to the problem space, especially since it would still conform to figure 1 > of RFC 4385. > > Cheers, > Andy > > > > ---------- > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > ------------161065be8bb7bdc27d3716f5d1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Andy,

Just to be clear , pseudo wir= es are in Charter as an example. An equally valid example would have been e= vpn's encapsulation...

Lou

Liu

On January 17, 2018 5:30:13 PM "Andrew G. Malis"= <agmalis@gmail.com> wrote:

Lou,

2) encapsulation: We are chartered to define= the encapsulation used by DetNet flows.=C2=A0=C2=A0 We are not expected to= come up with new encapsulations, but rather how DetNet uses what exists to= day.=C2=A0 As a group, while we once discussed documenting this in terms of= existing RFCs (e.g., PW, PWE3, EVPN), we have decided to define the encaps= ulation in a more independent form. This is fine, but doesn't change th= at we are expected to reuse encapsulations that exist today.

Given that PWs are in charter, Stewart and I as PA= LS chairs agree that DETNET should be able to define a PW control word to o= ptimize the solution to the problem space, especially since it would still = conform to figure 1 of RFC 4385.

Cheers,
Andy


_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
de= tnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IGRldG5ldCBt YWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gZGV0bmV0QGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21h aWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZGV0bmV0DQoNCg== From nobody Thu Jan 18 04:07:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7451A12D955 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 04:07:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with 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[213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a62sm5250312wmh.3.2018.01.18.04.07.19 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Jan 2018 04:07:19 -0800 (PST) To: Lou Berger , DetNet WG References: From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 12:07:18 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] some reminders on charter X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 12:07:43 -0000 On 17/01/2018 19:53, Lou Berger wrote: > > > 4) Topics that are out of scope: As a reminder, control plane is > currently out of scope of our charter.  We certainly are expected to > identify the information needed for flow establishment and control and > be used by reservation protocols and YANG data models (which are in > charter). This may include, for example, how one or more DetNet flows > are mapped to MPLS (TE) LSPs, but does not include any LDP, RSVP-TE or > SR-related control plane changes.  As a group, we may want to ask the > IESG to revisit this, but I suggest that not consider or discuss this > until we have a Data Plane defined and, perhaps, the rest of our > deliverables largely completed. If we develop a type of PW to carry DN, this restriction is ridiculous. PWs have control planes already and I would assume that we would try to reuse them via minor extensions. If we sequence the work as suggested we simply delay the point where we have provided all the tools needed for deployment. I would suggest that a more pragmatic contingency approach in which we focus on delivering what is right for the network operator given the knowledge we currently have is more appropriate. - Stewart From nobody Thu Jan 18 04:12:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37C4412D943 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 04:12:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pOfpNb-3UI-9 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 04:12:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x22b.google.com (mail-wm0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0AC9126CBF for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 04:12:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id x4so2456392wmc.0 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 04:12:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=u6rBKSXBoidwSieDC9ER8Oen0EkPvARc3VijYUh28ao=; b=e3UvQ1n8RuIF0ZTwA8awDuijx001Bh89SzxlkW/yEz3gG4bPBgqML2LZb4lF8v7Nyx tIh/dBUccMEqKfbsVRFeENuTeyQU5mpKha2QnoOrHR7F/iIYSBfknWXSc85uueCH0uCO UMQhLet16JtryxSp5/c1H1hhmVLajx0O4ob9ljmTWv8pjM2LQ4UgQP3prAbZO7h5mnpl JC+32SyrtfP+hKGfY0vrm53MNOoWhzG+485H2yNpsvflWkf3DkpIboyGS/Qt3vGjfcYt g25jeijp6VTuJf+1bIQU3ZcrjGbpaCYRXBqBZ3n+p/63GPeG5Bp87mDMiE+PNG8de0jz 7gIA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=u6rBKSXBoidwSieDC9ER8Oen0EkPvARc3VijYUh28ao=; b=MkxpbVCavR5ZvK9RfUoRWquJ7o+P+6XPzO7jJwnrovoaTzbn2J551a/V9ukJVRj1jo xLm1MnxycCN4zqI2+bT4ObJ0/NdGdPR48VYBwyWW+MOxwbiEwc3T68f8djLioCljWOGa 7E7DbGoRH4CKSUG6+oSX2kpSU6LIgapnruNvvAwd/8yrvuAhE9kuRNdRHPKqlbFBoLHZ PfOTOXMeaIfWIfrb9df0P7HEfIAEPyIuglLW+QpP2prhEQmes/2ZrTfdPDgmkDeUry/b p42dC3eY0l58IPxtuo0/RvZ5JzMgRr0eu42Z7WC8jr/2dpiO4fJAUpDEh2zL9uOg0+Ur iFYg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytd0gq/gA1DEVtNUX5/YyB8RwzObcZkG9ybeVE7YiqADNFXUIQsG +ABqQZPu0VyIp8tLY73/HFY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBovvwqf2I8nnR935nIVCOas1OYCZxPtF5MnsuVLJHu4i6eclNUF86LKiD3fJ8UFBLAtqpU0hLw== X-Received: by 10.80.190.137 with SMTP id b9mr7510517edk.246.1516277536077; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 04:12:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.126] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w2sm4653934edb.4.2018.01.18.04.12.14 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Jan 2018 04:12:15 -0800 (PST) To: Jeff Tantsura , "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" , "Grossman, Ethan A." , DetNet WG Cc: "Tim Chown (Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk)" References: <426B8B09-A248-4180-B948-0CBA95904F89@gmail.com> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <7920786a-795a-3418-aad9-757d79e9e61c@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 12:12:13 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <426B8B09-A248-4180-B948-0CBA95904F89@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------C83B361B5B1198D08FD85221" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 12:12:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C83B361B5B1198D08FD85221 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jeff There is an important difference between only building an IPv4 solution and building an IPv4 only solution. We should design what is right for the customer in the network context they need it to work. If we do not do that we will loose the design authority for the protocols. - Stewart On 17/01/2018 22:12, Jeff Tantsura wrote: > > Speaking on behalf of IAB – building a IPv4 only solution would be a > rather unfortunate direction and very much against IAB statement ( > https://www.iab.org/2016/11/07/iab-statement-on-ipv6/ > ). > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > *From: *detnet on behalf of "BRUNGARD, > DEBORAH A" > *Date: *Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 12:34 > *To: *Stewart Bryant , "Grossman, Ethan A." > , DetNet WG > *Cc: *"Tim Chown (Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk)" > *Subject: *Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) > > I don’t want to influence your discussion on solution(s). > > As mails are getting crossed, and not having Tim’s original comment, I > think as Ethan later says in a mail after this one – the IAB concern > would be if doing an “IPv4-only” solution. Many working groups are > still doing work supporting IPv4 networks. The discussion when it > reaches the IESG – can IPv6 support be included in the same document > or is there work on-going to support IPv6 (and the IPv6 solution does > not depend on IPv4). > > The charter for detnet is not to sunset IPv4😊If you have operational > use cases for supporting IPv4, then as you are doing, it is important > to discuss the deployment requirements e.g. closed network, IPv4-IPv6 > islands, etc., so as to understand the best solution. > > My interpretation of the IAB statement is to give guidance on > prioritizing work for IPv6. Unless you have large user groups > requiring IPv4-only, then your priority should be in developing an > IPv6 solution. And the IPv4 solution should not limit the IPv6 solution. > > Deborah > > *From:*Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 17, 2018 2:02 PM > *To:* Grossman, Ethan A. ; DetNet WG > ; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A > *Cc:* Tim Chown (Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk) > *Subject:* Re: DP solution (Flow identification) > > A point I have made before and will continue to make: > > If the IETF does not maintain IPv4 appropriately until it's natural > death, it will be declared critical national infrastructure by > governments and they will effectively gift it to their SDO (the > ITU-T). Such an organization may find it expedient to find many new > ways to extend the life of IPv4. In any case I anticipate a very long > tail on the IPv4 decay curve. > > We need to do what is right for our customers, some of whom may find > it infeasible to migrate away from IPv4 any time soon. > > I will of course be interested in Deborah's directive on this. > > - Stewart > > On 17/01/2018 18:51, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > Thanks Stewart. Regarding: > > “Yes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a > consensus of whether > a) We support v4 > b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions > c) We use a single common IP approach > d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS” > > > > Perhaps, given Tim Chown’s earlier comment: > > “If you’re suggesting an IPv4-only solution, you’re running up > against https://www.iab.org/2016/11/07/iab-statement-on-ipv6/ > .” > > We could get Deborah with her AD hat on to comment on this? > > Ethan. > > *From:*Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 17, 2018 10:39 AM > *To:* Grossman, Ethan A. > ; Balázs Varga A > > ; Andrew G. Malis > > *Cc:* DetNet WG ; Mach > Chen > *Subject:* Re: DP solution (Flow identification) > > Hi  Ethan, > > On 17/01/2018 18:24, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > Thanks Stewart for the clarification. I interpret your > statement “a decision not to support IPv4” to mean “a decision > not to propose adding anything to the existing IPv4 standard”. > > > To support IPv4 there are a number of methods that are possible, > one is to add something to v4 itself as is proposed for v6. Adding > something to the base protocol will be very difficult. > > Another method, is to do what has been proposed by some for MPLS, > that is to encode the identity and type in the IP address. There > is a proposal to do this in SRv6. I am not a great fan of abusing > the address space for this in the way proposed by that work, but > maybe we can do something much simpler here and simply identify > the DN instance by the IP address with no other semantics. Much > easier to do this for IPv6 with the "infinite addresses" but we > could get away with it in limited private Ipv4 networks. Of course > this does change the per-hop behaviour of IP which may be a > challenge to get the IETF to sign of on. > > Another method is to use some method of carrying an MPLS label > stack - this was the first proposal. Now I said that I did not > think anyone had done that and I still believe that to be the > case, but that does not mean that it is not the least worst > approach. There are alternates for example IP/UDP/MPLS > which is the so called USR approach that a number of us advocate > as an alternative to SRv6. > > > > > If that isn’t correct, please let me know. As you may recall I > already started a thread awhile ago to discuss IPv4 vs IPv6, > and based on the responses it appeared to me at that time that > there were some kind of options, though not a “native IPv4” > solution, but it wasn’t clear to me (as a non-expert in the > various networking protocols mentioned) whether they would be > viable in practice or not. I will revive that thread and see > if we can get any closer to determining the importance of IPv4 > to our target customers, and hopefully some sense of whether > the proposed non-native-IPv4 strategies will hold water. > > > Yes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a > consensus of whether > > a) We support v4 > b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions > c) We use a single common IP approach > d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS > > - Stewart > > > > > Ethan. > > *From:*Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 17, 2018 12:29 AM > *To:* Grossman, Ethan A. > ; Balázs Varga A > > ; Andrew G. Malis > > *Cc:* DetNet WG ; > Mach Chen > *Subject:* Re: DP solution (Flow identification) > > On 16/01/2018 18:38, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > Hi Bala’zs, > > Regarding IPv4, I also understood that we decided that we > can’t add new IPv4 fields. Pardon my ignorance here, but > does that mean there is no part of DetNet capability that > can be run over IPv4? Or is there some “workaround” to > provide as I say even part of the DetNet capability, given > that it is an Engineered network? I just want to clarify > expectations here. > > > If you have a native IPv4 network to which you present IPv6 > packets, you either have to tunnel them across where the IPv6 > is considered opaque data, or you have to translate them to > IPv4, but that requires some common semantics to deal with > extension headers which we don't currently have. > > So, as far as I can see, a decision not to support IPv4 means > no DN support across the IPv4 network. > > Which takes us back to the question of how important is this > and what will it do to the take-up of the technology by its > target customers? > > - Stewart > > > > > > Thanks, > > Ethan. > > *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf > Of *Balázs Varga A > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 16, 2018 10:21 AM > *To:* Stewart Bryant > ; Andrew G. Malis > > *Cc:* DetNet WG > ; Mach Chen > > *Subject:* [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) > > I think the last mails are more about flow identification > and not the sequence number. > > So, I have re-subjected my answer. > > PSN layer vs. DN layer (MPLS): > > - in current data plane text we have stated that DetNet > PWs may use dedicated LSPs (TE-tunnels). > > That allow to identify DetNet flows in PSN layer without > checking the PW label. Such a solution of > > course may challenge scalability. > > - regarding prioritization: text allows both E-LSP and > L-LSP concept, what makes possible > > to identify DetNet packets. However that is more for > simple queuing scenarios as it does not > > identify individual flows. > > PSN layer vs. DN layer (non-MPLS): > > - IPv4: If I remember correctly it was discussed to be > out-of-scope to simplify the scenarios we focus on. > > No-one wanted to define new IPv4 fields for flow-ID and > Seq-Num in the “sunset of IPv4”. > > - IPv6: based on the src-IPv6 and the flow-label NP can > detect DetNet flows. Why would we need a new > > IP protocol type? > > Generic vs. DN aware data plane: > > - I think we need both. We have use-cases specified for both. > > DetNet traffic to be transported: > > - two types are considered: > > (1) Ethernet: IEEE TSN traffic encapsulated in Ethernet > frames and > > (2) IP: IPv6 transported over any L2 (not always Ethernet, > but most cases Ethernet) > > As noted above IPv4 is currently out-of-scope … > > Cheers > > Bala’zs > > *From:*Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com] > *Sent:* 2018. január 16. 17:38 > *To:* Andrew G. Malis > > *Cc:* Mach Chen >; Balázs Varga A > >; DetNet WG > > > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > > Andy > > On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > Stewart, > > Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be > another PW type), targeted LDP and provisioning (via a > central controller, NMS, etc.) are alternatives to > RSVP and SR to provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW > label. > > > .. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this > purpose in VPNs > > > > > > You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) > case, we need a way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. > We could have a new IP protocol type for DETNET, and a > DETNET header directly follows the IP header. In that > case, the DETNET header would also need a next > protocol identifier, unless the next protocol is > always another IP header. > > > Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP > extension header, although I am not a fan of those since > (a) I am not confident what a router will do one it does > not understand, and (b) I am concerned about the need to > support IPv4 which I suspect will have a long tail in > enterprise deployment. > > I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has > universal support through any middle box. firewall etc, > and all routers need to look a the UDP DP so checking if > it is one they need to work on is just one compare and > conditional branch. > > > > > > Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the > identifier. > > > Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this > is sufficient. > > - Stewart > > Cheers, > > Andy > > On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant > > wrote: > > If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather > than the DN layer then we really are forced to > create a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one > through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for > this, but we could introduce the concept, for > example by making this the property of the IP > address or some way of MPLSing IP. > > However there is a deeper question we need to > answer. Is our expectation that each hop in the > data plane DN aware, or is our expectation that at > lest in some networks the data plane is generic > with some DN nodes strategically placed? > > I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases > the routers will all be DN aware, but in order to > get deployment in most networks we need to design > for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware. > > - Stewart > > On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote: > > Hi Balazs, > > #2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is > dedicated for DetNet, seems there is no > compatibility issue. > > In addition, I think we need to define a way > on how to differentiate a DetNet flow from a > non-DetNet flow, then the network processor > can process the CW as expected.  In TSN, it > uses the priority to determine whether a flow > is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we > also use the same way (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the > DetNet service Label itself implies the > situation, but it seems that this only works > when the DetNet service label is the top label. > > Any other thoughts? > > Best regards, > > Mach > > *From:* detnet > [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of > *Balázs Varga A > *Sent:* Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM > *To:* DetNet WG > > *Subject:* [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence > Numbering) > > Hi, > > Some thoughts to start discussion on open > points of the DP solution draft. > > This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. > > Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: > > - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW > definition states that S/N skips zero. > > It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) > > Possible problem resolutions: > > #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part > of the CW: > > 0 1 2                   3 > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 > 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0 |   16 bit > Sequence Number      | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > D-bit: set to “1” means DetNet specific Seq. > Number used, > > Bit5-15: reserved. > > RFC4448 states that reserved bits “MUST be > ignored upon receipt”, so backward > > compatibility is ensured. Such a solution > would allow also to use longer seq.num. > > formats (if needed). Such a format is also > inline with RFC4385. > > #2: Making “0” as a valid Seq.Num. > > DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded > special within the DetNet > > domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain > by DetNet Service functions > > (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes > and DetNet relay-nodes. No > > other nodes care about the value of S/N, > therefore DetNet can specify its > > own sequence number processing algorithm. So > “0” can be a valid number > > and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is > used. This is inline with RFC4385. > > #3: Other … ?!? > > Comments are welcome. > > Cheers > > Bala'zs > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] > On Behalf Of Lou Berger > Sent: 2018. január 10. 19:01 > To: DetNet WG > > Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim > > is available for download at: > > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301 > > > raw notes are available at > > http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 > > > Please feel free to update the etherpad based > on the recording. > > Lou (and co-chairs) > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --------------C83B361B5B1198D08FD85221 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Jeff

There is an important difference between only building an IPv4 solution and building an IPv4 only solution.

We should design what is right for the customer in the network context they need it to work. If we do not do that we will loose the design authority for the protocols.

- Stewart



On 17/01/2018 22:12, Jeff Tantsura wrote:

Speaking on behalf of IAB – building a IPv4 only solution would be a rather unfortunate direction and very much against IAB statement ( https://www.iab.org/2016/11/07/iab-statement-on-ipv6/).

 

Cheers,

Jeff

 

From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" <db3546@att.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 12:34
To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "Grossman, Ethan A." <eagros@dolby.com>, DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Cc: "Tim Chown (Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk)" <Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification)

 

I don’t want to influence your discussion on solution(s).

 

As mails are getting crossed, and not having Tim’s original comment, I think as Ethan later says in a mail after this one – the IAB concern would be if doing an “IPv4-only” solution. Many working groups are still doing work supporting IPv4 networks. The discussion when it reaches the IESG – can IPv6 support be included in the same document or is there work on-going to support IPv6 (and the IPv6 solution does not depend on IPv4).

 

The charter for detnet is not to sunset IPv4😊 If you have operational use cases for supporting IPv4, then as you are doing, it is important to discuss the deployment requirements e.g. closed network, IPv4-IPv6 islands, etc., so as to understand the best solution.

 

My interpretation of the IAB statement is to give guidance on prioritizing work for IPv6. Unless you have large user groups requiring IPv4-only, then your priority should be in developing an IPv6 solution. And the IPv4 solution should not limit the IPv6 solution.

 

Deborah

 

 

From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 2:02 PM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A <db3546@att.com>
Cc: Tim Chown (Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk) <Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: DP solution (Flow identification)

 

A point I have made before and will continue to make:

If the IETF does not maintain IPv4 appropriately until it's natural death, it will be declared critical national infrastructure by governments and they will effectively gift it to their SDO (the ITU-T). Such an organization may find it expedient to find many new ways to extend the life of IPv4. In any case I anticipate a very long tail on the IPv4 decay curve.

We need to do what is right for our customers, some of whom may find it infeasible to migrate away from IPv4 any time soon.

I will of course be interested in Deborah's directive on this.

- Stewart

 

On 17/01/2018 18:51, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Thanks Stewart. Regarding:

“Yes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a consensus of whether
a) We support v4
b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions
c) We use a single common IP approach
d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS”



Perhaps, given Tim Chown’s earlier comment:

        “If you’re suggesting an IPv4-only solution, you’re running up against https://www.iab.org/2016/11/07/iab-statement-on-ipv6/.”

 

We could get Deborah with her AD hat on to comment on this?

Ethan.

 

From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 10:39 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; Balázs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: DP solution (Flow identification)

 

Hi  Ethan,

 

On 17/01/2018 18:24, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Thanks Stewart for the clarification. I interpret your statement “a decision not to support IPv4” to mean “a decision not to propose adding anything to the existing IPv4 standard”.


To support IPv4 there are a number of methods that are possible, one is to add something to v4 itself as is proposed for v6. Adding something to the base protocol will be very difficult.

Another method, is to do what has been proposed by some for MPLS, that is to encode the identity and type in the IP address. There is a proposal to do this in SRv6. I am not a great fan of abusing the address space for this in the way proposed by that work, but maybe we can do something much simpler here and simply identify the DN instance by the IP address with no other semantics. Much easier to do this for IPv6 with the "infinite addresses" but we could get away with it in limited private Ipv4 networks. Of course this does change the per-hop behaviour of IP which may be a challenge to get the IETF to sign of on.

Another method is to use some method of carrying an MPLS label stack - this was the first proposal. Now I said that I did not think anyone had done that and I still believe that to be the case, but that does not mean that it is not the least worst approach. There are alternates for example IP/UDP/MPLS
which is the so called USR approach that a number of us advocate as an alternative to SRv6.




If that isn’t correct, please let me know. As you may recall I already started a thread awhile ago to discuss IPv4 vs IPv6, and based on the responses it appeared to me at that time that there were some kind of options, though not a “native IPv4” solution, but it wasn’t clear to me (as a non-expert in the various networking protocols mentioned) whether they would be viable in practice or not. I will revive that thread and see if we can get any closer to determining the importance of IPv4 to our target customers, and hopefully some sense of whether the proposed non-native-IPv4 strategies will hold water.


Yes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a consensus of whether

a) We support v4
b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions
c) We use a single common IP approach
d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS

- Stewart




Ethan.

 

From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 12:29 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; Balázs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: DP solution (Flow identification)

 

 

 

On 16/01/2018 18:38, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Hi Bala’zs,

Regarding IPv4, I also understood that we decided that we can’t add new IPv4 fields. Pardon my ignorance here, but does that mean there is no part of DetNet capability that can be run over IPv4? Or is there some “workaround” to provide as I say even part of the DetNet capability, given that it is an Engineered network? I just want to clarify expectations here.


If you have a native IPv4 network to which you present IPv6 packets, you either have to tunnel them across where the IPv6 is considered opaque data, or you have to translate them to IPv4, but that requires some common semantics to deal with extension headers which we don't currently have.

So, as far as I can see, a decision not to support IPv4 means no DN support across the IPv4 network.

Which takes us back to the question of how important is this and what will it do to the take-up of the technology by its target customers?

- Stewart





Thanks,

Ethan.

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Balázs Varga A
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 10:21 AM
To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification)

 

I think the last mails are more about flow identification and not the sequence number.

So, I have re-subjected my answer.

 

PSN layer vs. DN layer (MPLS):

- in current data plane text we have stated that DetNet PWs may use dedicated LSPs (TE-tunnels).

That allow to identify DetNet flows in PSN layer without checking the PW label. Such a solution of

course may challenge scalability.

- regarding prioritization: text allows both E-LSP and L-LSP concept, what makes possible

to identify DetNet packets. However that is more for simple queuing scenarios as it does not

identify individual flows.

 

PSN layer vs. DN layer (non-MPLS):

- IPv4: If I remember correctly it was discussed to be out-of-scope to simplify the scenarios we focus on.

No-one wanted to define new IPv4 fields for flow-ID and Seq-Num in the “sunset of IPv4”.

- IPv6: based on the src-IPv6 and the flow-label NP can detect DetNet flows. Why would we need a new

IP protocol type?

 

Generic vs. DN aware data plane:

- I think we need both. We have use-cases specified for both.

 

DetNet traffic to be transported:

- two types are considered:

(1) Ethernet: IEEE TSN traffic encapsulated in Ethernet frames and

(2) IP: IPv6 transported over any L2 (not always Ethernet, but most cases Ethernet)

As noted above IPv4 is currently out-of-scope …

 

Cheers

Bala’zs

 

From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: 2018. január 16. 17:38
To: Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>; Balázs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

 

 

Andy

On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote:

Stewart,

 

Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be another PW type), targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central controller, NMS, etc.) are alternatives to RSVP and SR to provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW label.


.. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this purpose in VPNs





 

You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) case, we need a way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could have a new IP protocol type for DETNET, and a DETNET header directly follows the IP header. In that case, the DETNET header would also need a next protocol identifier, unless the next protocol is always another IP header.


Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP extension header, although I am not a fan of those since (a) I am not confident what a router will do one it does not understand, and (b) I am concerned about the need to support IPv4 which I suspect will have a long tail in enterprise deployment.

I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal support through any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers need to look a the UDP DP so checking if it is one they need to work on is just one compare and conditional branch.





 

Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the identifier.


Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this is sufficient.

- Stewart
 

 

Cheers,

Andy

 

 

On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:

If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer then we really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, but we could introduce the concept, for example by making this the property of the IP address or some way of MPLSing IP.

However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our expectation that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our expectation that at lest in some networks the data plane is generic with some DN nodes strategically placed?

I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers will all be DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most networks we need to design for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware.

- Stewart

 

On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote:

Hi Balazs,

 

#2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, seems there is no compatibility issue.

 

In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to differentiate a DetNet flow from a non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can process the CW as expected.  In TSN, it uses the priority to determine whether a flow is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the same way (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself implies the situation, but it seems that this only works when the DetNet service label is the top label.  

 

Any other thoughts?

 

Best regards,

Mach

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Balázs Varga A
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

 

Hi,

 

Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft.

This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering.

 

Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word:

- S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips zero.

It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448)

 

Possible problem resolutions:

#1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW:

      0                   1                   2                   3

      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

     |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0  |   16 bit Sequence Number      |

     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

D-bit: set to “1” means DetNet specific Seq. Number used,

Bit5-15: reserved.

 

RFC4448 states that reserved bits “MUST be ignored upon receipt”, so backward

compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer seq.num.

formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385.

 

#2: Making “0” as a valid Seq.Num.

DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet

domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions

(i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No

other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its

own sequence number processing algorithm. So “0” can be a valid number

and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with RFC4385.

 

#3: Other … ?!?

 

Comments are welcome.

 

Cheers

Bala'zs

 

-----Original Message-----
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger
Sent: 2018. január 10. 19:01
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim

 

is available for download at:

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301

 

raw notes are available at

http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01

 

Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording.

 

Lou (and co-chairs)

 

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detnet mailing list

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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 

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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 


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_______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet


--------------C83B361B5B1198D08FD85221-- From nobody Thu Jan 18 06:29:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 729ED126E3A for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 06:29:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PLk3oN6P_O0f for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 06:29:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy6-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy6-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [67.222.39.168]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E261F1205D3 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 06:29:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw3 (unknown [10.0.90.84]) by gproxy6.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 978D61E068E for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 07:29:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmgw3 with id zqV11w00x2SSUrH01qV422; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 07:29:05 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=XM9AcUpE c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=RgaUWeydRksA:10 a=a0aSsUMVQvTUW1oKHlUA:9 a=1tCGIgCRn1xJHlaY:21 a=hF0RK76HfIkCL74J:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:Cc:From:References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=TVOqiiJYxB9Q7JpiaSojTE20zKDKJt6q3ZOlIc7bp4I=; b=b2KnfngXyn34r/YRT6WAOBnlQn vfKT+HMsVinrnmxsX+OqS0d2RbT+XktNLmVB3Nm5FvIG6W0Hd1PIGy6cJbiyA3ZN7htsJQ3Dgxe1V 6DpxzKpR0v+kPh9HxNNozgB6I; Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:39292 helo=fs2.dc.labn.net) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ecBBd-0016Dx-QY; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 07:29:01 -0700 To: Stewart Bryant References: From: Lou Berger Cc: DetNet WG Message-ID: <1586b688-a52c-355f-5a9e-c7c8604ecc93@labn.net> Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 09:29:00 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1ecBBd-0016Dx-QY X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net (fs2.dc.labn.net) [100.15.86.101]:39292 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 2 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] some reminders on charter X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:29:10 -0000 On 01/18/2018 07:07 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: > > > On 17/01/2018 19:53, Lou Berger wrote: >> >> >> 4) Topics that are out of scope: As a reminder, control plane is >> currently out of scope of our charter.  We certainly are expected to >> identify the information needed for flow establishment and control and >> be used by reservation protocols and YANG data models (which are in >> charter). This may include, for example, how one or more DetNet flows >> are mapped to MPLS (TE) LSPs, but does not include any LDP, RSVP-TE or >> SR-related control plane changes.  As a group, we may want to ask the >> IESG to revisit this, but I suggest that not consider or discuss this >> until we have a Data Plane defined and, perhaps, the rest of our >> deliverables largely completed. > > If we develop a type of PW to carry DN, this restriction is ridiculous. Stewart, Part of the reason for a charter is to ensure that a WG doesn't try to "boil the ocean" or in other words constrain the problem or solution space to what can be achieved in a reasonable time. In this case, the WG will defer the discussion of control plane until we're ready to have a recharter discussion. This does not stop the work from being proposed, perhaps even in other WGs, which may even motivate a recharter discussion. > PWs have control planes already and I would assume that we would try to > reuse them via minor extensions. Yes, and having a debate right now on LDP vs BGP/EVPN vs SR vs RSVP-TE vs whatever won't help us close on our current set of deliverables. Having discussion on reuse of encapsulation formats, forwarding mechanisms (e.g., encap over IP/TSN, TE-LSPs, SR-TE, etc.), and YANG models will. > If we sequence the work as suggested we simply delay the point where we > have provided all the tools needed for deployment. individuals are welcome to sequence their work as they see fit, we are a volunteer / contribution driven organization after all. From a process standpoint, it's a chairs job to help focus discussion on chartered items and charter discussions. (Hence my message ;-) > > I would suggest that a more pragmatic contingency approach in which we > focus on delivering what is right for the network operator given the > knowledge we currently have is more appropriate. I'm not sure how our current work plan deviates from this, but if you really want to bring control plane in as deliverable, please propose specific charter changes and then we can discuss it in the WG and, if there is adequate support, raise it with our AD and the IESG for proposal. Given where we are *right now* on meeting our milestones, I'd be surprised if a charter change would be approved. Once we have resolved our major open issues and are just polishing our data plane and yang model(s), my bet is we'd have a much easier time with getting our scope widened -- if still appropriate. Lou > > - Stewart > > > From nobody Thu Jan 18 11:41:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 474BC1270FC for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 11:41:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pLqPr3wZxxlj for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 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localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0_KXT8PIekWp for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 13:49:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot0-x22d.google.com (mail-ot0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28D38124B17 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 13:49:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id t20so12098358ote.11 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 13:49:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NG8QsCuq1uf9/sPPJLD43FPXU8Lo3FQiAucREiep3xo=; b=FSMAMPRHXZ5I7c6A1cM14bWo0ad7aacuAGpGAbuXKk2DAUi3Ioi8tJbsU0takxZ/pp XaN8QyoioUt6CbwNyWqBb+z5PMsav0GtkYnQ0KwKb4ujbkiWzWk3W2SU02sk+y08zoA3 AQVFJfM6Wc9Zx7D+0TIc5GX2VNvWK1a6ixrjf2IGMZJlV29fPZMorqVNHbM0XhLdMqri 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id r14mr4509534oth.127.1516312159393; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 13:49:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.17.189 with HTTP; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 13:48:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <9d8fab9f-b5dd-6df0-1463-1c0eb63e8cdc@gmail.com> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 16:48:58 -0500 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Varga_A?= Cc: DetNet WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f40304354a50a12419056313efed" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 21:49:40 -0000 --f40304354a50a12419056313efed Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bal=C3=A1zs, I agree with your conclusions regarding =E2=80=9CDetNet distance=E2=80=9D. However, one point I think I disagree with you is when the sequence number is necessary - you said only by the =E2=80=9Cservice protection=E2=80=9D fu= nction=E2=80=9D. However, as DetNet flows are indeed flows, and and most (if not all) applications that will require DetNet will most probably require in-order delivery, sequence numbers are generally useful for reordering at the destination if packets get out of order during delivery by the underlying network. Cheers, Andy On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 2:41 PM, Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A wrote: > Hi, > > > > some comments regarding what is needed for a "networks that are under a > single administrative control", based on the existing WG drafts (problem > statement, use-cases, architecture, etc.). Let's try to keep it simple an= d > focus on what we need: > > 1, Flow requirements: > > - loss and/or delay bounds > > 2, DetNet functions (defined so far): > > - DN1, Congestion protection (i.e. reserving resources, > magic queuing, etc.) > > - DN2, Explicit routes (i.e. traffic engineering) > > - DN3, Service protection (against loss by network > failures) > > Note: These three techniques can be applied independently, depending on > the Flow requirements and the network scenario. As an example, congestion > protection (DN1) alone is offered by IEEE 802.1 Audio Video bridging. > > > > 3, Flow specific information have to travel with the packet: > > - Flow-ID (required by all DetNet functions) > > - Sequence Number (required only by "Service Protection" > function) > > > > So, regarding the questions here on the list: > > - Do we need all nodes to be DN-aware in a network? > > Not necessarily. If in a network scenario DetNet flows require only for > example basic DN1 function than You have a good chance to serve it with > existing devices. However in some cases all DN functions are needed at ea= ch > hop, so yes, all nodes have to be DN aware. > > Conclusion: the more DN functions are needed in a network scenario to > serve DetNet flows, the more probably we need DN-aware nodes at each hop. > > > > - Do we need DetNet data-plane for IPv4, IPv6 and MPLS? > > Yes, that would be nice to have for all of them. But I think it is a > better question which one has the smallest distance to be DetNet-ready? (= I > mean which need the less new stuff to support DN?) The data-plane > alternative related draft focused on that and also the mailing threads > here. > > Conclusion: I think we can conclude on a rank of "smallest > DetNet-distance": > > 1, MPLS > > 2, IPv6 > > 3. IPv4 > > Note: in my view this is also the probability list what networks someone > intends to use to forward DetNet flows =E2=80=A6 > > > > Cheers > > VBala'zs > > > > *From:* detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Grossman, > Ethan A. > *Sent:* 2018. janu=C3=A1r 17. 19:51 > *To:* DetNet WG ; Deborah Brungard ; > Stewart Bryant > *Cc:* Tim Chown (Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk) > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) > > > > Thanks Stewart. Regarding: > > =E2=80=9CYes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a cons= ensus of > whether > a) We support v4 > b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions > c) We use a single common IP approach > d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS=E2=80=9D > > Perhaps, given Tim Chown=E2=80=99s earlier comment: > > =E2=80=9CIf you=E2=80=99re suggesting an IPv4-only solution, you= =E2=80=99re running up > against https://www.iab.org/2016/11/07/iab-statement-on-ipv6/.=E2=80=9D > > > > We could get Deborah with her AD hat on to comment on this? > > Ethan. > > > > *From:* Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com > ] > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 17, 2018 10:39 AM > *To:* Grossman, Ethan A. ; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A < > balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; Andrew G. Malis > *Cc:* DetNet WG ; Mach Chen > *Subject:* Re: DP solution (Flow identification) > > > > Hi Ethan, > > > > On 17/01/2018 18:24, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > Thanks Stewart for the clarification. I interpret your statement =E2=80= =9Ca > decision not to support IPv4=E2=80=9D to mean =E2=80=9Ca decision not to = propose adding > anything to the existing IPv4 standard=E2=80=9D. > > > To support IPv4 there are a number of methods that are possible, one is t= o > add something to v4 itself as is proposed for v6. Adding something to the > base protocol will be very difficult. > > Another method, is to do what has been proposed by some for MPLS, that is > to encode the identity and type in the IP address. There is a proposal to > do this in SRv6. I am not a great fan of abusing the address space for th= is > in the way proposed by that work, but maybe we can do something much > simpler here and simply identify the DN instance by the IP address with n= o > other semantics. Much easier to do this for IPv6 with the "infinite > addresses" but we could get away with it in limited private Ipv4 networks= . > Of course this does change the per-hop behaviour of IP which may be a > challenge to get the IETF to sign of on. > > Another method is to use some method of carrying an MPLS label stack - > this was the first proposal. Now I said that I did not think anyone had > done that and I still believe that to be the case, but that does not mean > that it is not the least worst approach. There are alternates for example > IP/UDP/MPLS > which is the so called USR approach that a number of us advocate as an > alternative to SRv6. > > If that isn=E2=80=99t correct, please let me know. As you may recall I al= ready > started a thread awhile ago to discuss IPv4 vs IPv6, and based on the > responses it appeared to me at that time that there were some kind of > options, though not a =E2=80=9Cnative IPv4=E2=80=9D solution, but it wasn= =E2=80=99t clear to me (as > a non-expert in the various networking protocols mentioned) whether they > would be viable in practice or not. I will revive that thread and see if = we > can get any closer to determining the importance of IPv4 to our target > customers, and hopefully some sense of whether the proposed non-native-IP= v4 > strategies will hold water. > > > Yes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a consensus of > whether > > a) We support v4 > b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions > c) We use a single common IP approach > d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS > > - Stewart > > Ethan. > > > > *From:* Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com > ] > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 17, 2018 12:29 AM > *To:* Grossman, Ethan A. ; Bal=C3=A1= zs > Varga A ; > Andrew G. Malis > *Cc:* DetNet WG ; Mach Chen > > *Subject:* Re: DP solution (Flow identification) > > > > > > > > On 16/01/2018 18:38, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > Hi Bala=E2=80=99zs, > > Regarding IPv4, I also understood that we decided that we can=E2=80=99t a= dd new > IPv4 fields. Pardon my ignorance here, but does that mean there is no par= t > of DetNet capability that can be run over IPv4? Or is there some > =E2=80=9Cworkaround=E2=80=9D to provide as I say even part of the DetNet = capability, given > that it is an Engineered network? I just want to clarify expectations her= e. > > > If you have a native IPv4 network to which you present IPv6 packets, you > either have to tunnel them across where the IPv6 is considered opaque dat= a, > or you have to translate them to IPv4, but that requires some common > semantics to deal with extension headers which we don't currently have. > > So, as far as I can see, a decision not to support IPv4 means no DN > support across the IPv4 network. > > Which takes us back to the question of how important is this and what wil= l > it do to the take-up of the technology by its target customers? > > - Stewart > > > Thanks, > > Ethan. > > > > *From:* detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org ]= *On > Behalf Of *Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 16, 2018 10:21 AM > *To:* Stewart Bryant ; > Andrew G. Malis > *Cc:* DetNet WG ; Mach Chen > > *Subject:* [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) > > > > I think the last mails are more about flow identification and not the > sequence number. > > So, I have re-subjected my answer. > > > > PSN layer vs. DN layer (MPLS): > > - in current data plane text we have stated that DetNet PWs may use > dedicated LSPs (TE-tunnels). > > That allow to identify DetNet flows in PSN layer without checking the PW > label. Such a solution of > > course may challenge scalability. > > - regarding prioritization: text allows both E-LSP and L-LSP concept, wha= t > makes possible > > to identify DetNet packets. However that is more for simple queuing > scenarios as it does not > > identify individual flows. > > > > PSN layer vs. DN layer (non-MPLS): > > - IPv4: If I remember correctly it was discussed to be out-of-scope to > simplify the scenarios we focus on. > > No-one wanted to define new IPv4 fields for flow-ID and Seq-Num in the > =E2=80=9Csunset of IPv4=E2=80=9D. > > - IPv6: based on the src-IPv6 and the flow-label NP can detect DetNet > flows. Why would we need a new > > IP protocol type? > > > > Generic vs. DN aware data plane: > > - I think we need both. We have use-cases specified for both. > > > > DetNet traffic to be transported: > > - two types are considered: > > (1) Ethernet: IEEE TSN traffic encapsulated in Ethernet frames and > > (2) IP: IPv6 transported over any L2 (not always Ethernet, but most cases > Ethernet) > > As noted above IPv4 is currently out-of-scope =E2=80=A6 > > > > Cheers > > Bala=E2=80=99zs > > > > *From:* Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com > ] > *Sent:* 2018. janu=C3=A1r 16. 17:38 > *To:* Andrew G. Malis > *Cc:* Mach Chen ; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A < > balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; DetNet WG > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > > > > > > Andy > > On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > Stewart, > > > > Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be another PW type), > targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central controller, NMS, etc.) are > alternatives to RSVP and SR to provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW labe= l. > > > .. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this purpose in VPNs > > > > > You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) case, we need a way > for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could have a new IP protocol type f= or > DETNET, and a DETNET header directly follows the IP header. In that case, > the DETNET header would also need a next protocol identifier, unless the > next protocol is always another IP header. > > > Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP extension header, > although I am not a fan of those since (a) I am not confident what a rout= er > will do one it does not understand, and (b) I am concerned about the need > to support IPv4 which I suspect will have a long tail in enterprise > deployment. > > I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal support > through any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers need to look a the > UDP DP so checking if it is one they need to work on is just one compare > and conditional branch. > > > > > Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the identifier. > > > Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this is sufficient. > > - Stewart > > > > > Cheers, > > Andy > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant > wrote: > > If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer then > we really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one > through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, but we could > introduce the concept, for example by making this the property of the IP > address or some way of MPLSing IP. > > However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our expectation > that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our expectation that at > lest in some networks the data plane is generic with some DN nodes > strategically placed? > > I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers will all b= e > DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most networks we need to desi= gn > for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware. > > - Stewart > > > > On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote: > > Hi Balazs, > > > > #2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, seem= s > there is no compatibility issue. > > > > In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to differentiate a > DetNet flow from a non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can proces= s > the CW as expected. In TSN, it uses the priority to determine whether a > flow is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the same way > (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself implies the situatio= n, > but it seems that this only works when the DetNet service label is the to= p > label. > > > > Any other thoughts? > > > > Best regards, > > Mach > > > > *From:* detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org ]= *On > Behalf Of *Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A > *Sent:* Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM > *To:* DetNet WG > *Subject:* [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > > > > Hi, > > > > Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft= . > > This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. > > > > Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: > > - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips > zero. > > It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) > > > > Possible problem resolutions: > > #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: > > 0 1 2 3 > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0 | 16 bit Sequence Number | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > D-bit: set to =E2=80=9C1=E2=80=9D means DetNet specific Seq. Number used, > > Bit5-15: reserved. > > > > RFC4448 states that reserved bits =E2=80=9CMUST be ignored upon receipt= =E2=80=9D, so > backward > > compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer > seq.num. > > formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385. > > > > #2: Making =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D as a valid Seq.Num. > > DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet > > domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions > > (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No > > other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its > > own sequence number processing algorithm. So =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D can be a= valid number > > and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with > RFC4385. > > > > #3: Other =E2=80=A6 ?!? > > > > Comments are welcome. > > > > Cheers > > Bala'zs > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org ] > On Behalf Of Lou Berger > Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 10. 19:01 > To: DetNet WG > Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim > > > > is available for download at: > > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3De5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf2023= 01 > > > > > raw notes are available at > > http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 > > > > > Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording. > > > > Lou (and co-chairs) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > --f40304354a50a12419056313efed Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bal=C3=A1zs,

I agree with your conc= lusions regarding =E2=80=9CDetNet distance=E2=80=9D.

However, one point I think I disagree with you is when the sequence numb= er is necessary - you said only by the =E2=80=9Cservice protection=E2=80=9D= function=E2=80=9D. However, as DetNet flows are indeed flows, and and most= (if not all) applications that will require DetNet will most probably requ= ire in-order delivery, sequence numbers are generally useful for reordering= at the destination if packets get out of order during delivery by the unde= rlying network.

Cheers,
Andy
<= br>

On= Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 2:41 PM, Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A <balazs.a.var= ga@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

some comments regar= ding what is needed for a "networks that are under a single administra= tive control", based on the existing WG drafts (problem statement, use= -cases, architecture, etc.). Let's try to keep it simple and focus on what we need:

1, Flow requirement= s:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - = loss and/or delay bounds

2, DetNet functions= (defined so far):

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - = DN1, Congestion protection (i.e. reserving resources, magic queuing, etc.)<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - = DN2, Explicit routes (i.e. traffic engineering)

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - = DN3, Service protection (against loss by network failures)

Note: These three t= echniques can be applied independently, depending on the Flow requirements = and the network scenario. As an example, congestion protection (DN1) alone = is offered by IEEE 802.1 Audio Video bridging.

=C2=A0

3, Flow specific in= formation have to travel with the packet:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - = Flow-ID (required by all DetNet functions)

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - = Sequence Number (required only by "Service Protection" function)<= u>

=C2=A0

So, regarding the q= uestions here on the list:

- Do we need all no= des to be DN-aware in a network?

Not necessarily. If= in a network scenario DetNet flows require only for example basic DN1 func= tion than You have a good chance to serve it with existing devices. However= in some cases all DN functions are needed at each hop, so yes, all nodes have to be DN aware. <= /span>

Conclusion: the mor= e DN functions are needed in a network scenario to serve DetNet flows, the = more probably we need DN-aware nodes at each hop.

=C2=A0

- Do we need DetNet= data-plane for IPv4, IPv6 and MPLS?

Yes, that would be = nice to have for all of them. But I think it is a better question which one= has the smallest distance to be DetNet-ready? (I mean which need the less = new stuff to support DN?) The data-plane alternative related draft focused on that and also the mailing threads her= e.

Conclusion: I think= we can conclude on a rank of "smallest DetNet-distance":<= u>

1, MPLS

2, IPv6

3. IPv4

Note: in my view th= is is also the probability list what networks someone intends to use to for= ward DetNet flows =E2=80=A6

=C2=A0

Cheers

VBala'zs=

=C2=A0

From:= detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Grossman, Ethan A.
Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 17. 19:51
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Deborah Brungard <db3546@att.com>; Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmai= l.com>
Cc: Tim Chown (Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk) <Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification)

=C2=A0

Thanks Stewart. Reg= arding:

=E2=80=9CYes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a co= nsensus of whether
a) We support v4
b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions
c) We use a single common IP approach
d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS=E2=80=9D

Perhaps, given Tim = Chown=E2=80=99s earlier comment:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CIf you=E2=80=99re suggesting an IPv4-only= solution, you=E2=80=99re running up against https://www.iab.org/2016/11/07/iab-statement-on-ipv6/.=E2= =80=9D

=C2=A0

We could get Debora= h with her AD hat on to comment on this?

Ethan.

=C2=A0

From:= Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 10:39 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsso= n.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: DP solution (Flow identification)<= /p>

=C2=A0

Hi=C2=A0 Ethan,

=C2=A0

On 17/01/2018 18:24, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Thanks Stewart for = the clarification. I interpret your statement =E2=80=9Ca decision not to su= pport IPv4=E2=80=9D to mean =E2=80=9Ca decision not to propose adding anyth= ing to the existing IPv4 standard=E2=80=9D.


To support IPv4 there are a number of methods that are possible, one is to = add something to v4 itself as is proposed for v6. Adding something to the b= ase protocol will be very difficult.

Another method, is to do what has been proposed by some for MPLS, that is t= o encode the identity and type in the IP address. There is a proposal to do= this in SRv6. I am not a great fan of abusing the address space for this i= n the way proposed by that work, but maybe we can do something much simpler here and simply identify the DN= instance by the IP address with no other semantics. Much easier to do this= for IPv6 with the "infinite addresses" but we could get away wit= h it in limited private Ipv4 networks. Of course this does change the per-hop behaviour of IP which may be a challen= ge to get the IETF to sign of on.

Another method is to use some method of carrying an MPLS label stack - this= was the first proposal. Now I said that I did not think anyone had done th= at and I still believe that to be the case, but that does not mean that it = is not the least worst approach. There are alternates for example IP/UDP/MPLS
which is the so called USR approach that a number of us advocate as an alte= rnative to SRv6.

If that isn=E2=80= =99t correct, please let me know. As you may recall I already started a thr= ead awhile ago to discuss IPv4 vs IPv6, and based on the responses it appea= red to me at that time that there were some kind of options, though not a =E2=80=9Cnative IPv4=E2=80=9D solution, but it wa= sn=E2=80=99t clear to me (as a non-expert in the various networking protoco= ls mentioned) whether they would be viable in practice or not. I will reviv= e that thread and see if we can get any closer to determining the importance of IPv4 to our target customers, and hopefully some sense o= f whether the proposed non-native-IPv4 strategies will hold water.


Yes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a consensus of wh= ether

a) We support v4
b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions
c) We use a single common IP approach
d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS

- Stewart

Ethan.

=C2=A0

From:= Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 12:29 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A <= ;balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; Andr= ew G. Malis <agmalis@g= mail.com>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Mach Ch= en <mach.c= hen@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: DP solution (Flow identification)<= /p>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On 16/01/2018 18:38, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Hi Bala=E2=80=99zs,=

Regarding IPv4, I a= lso understood that we decided that we can=E2=80=99t add new IPv4 fields. P= ardon my ignorance here, but does that mean there is no part of DetNet capa= bility that can be run over IPv4? Or is there some =E2=80=9Cworkaround=E2=80=9D to provide as I say even part of the Det= Net capability, given that it is an Engineered network? I just want to clar= ify expectations here.


If you have a native IPv4 network to which you present IPv6 packets, you ei= ther have to tunnel them across where the IPv6 is considered opaque data, o= r you have to translate them to IPv4, but that requires some common semanti= cs to deal with extension headers which we don't currently have.

So, as far as I can see, a decision not to support IPv4 means no DN support= across the IPv4 network.

Which takes us back to the question of how important is this and what will = it do to the take-up of the technology by its target customers?

- Stewart


Thanks,

Ethan.

=C2=A0

From:= detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org<= span style=3D"color:windowtext">] On Behalf Of Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 10:21 AM
To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@g= mail.com>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Mach Ch= en <mach.c= hen@huawei.com>
Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification)=

=C2=A0

I think the last ma= ils are more about flow identification and not the sequence number.<= u>

So, I have re-subje= cted my answer.

=C2=A0

PSN layer vs. DN la= yer (MPLS):

- in current data p= lane text we have stated that DetNet PWs may use dedicated LSPs (TE-tunnels= ).

That allow to ident= ify DetNet flows in PSN layer without checking the PW label. Such a solutio= n of

course may challeng= e scalability.

- regarding priorit= ization: text allows both E-LSP and L-LSP concept, what makes possible

to identify DetNet = packets. However that is more for simple queuing scenarios as it does not

identify individual= flows.

=C2=A0

PSN layer vs. DN la= yer (non-MPLS):

- IPv4: If I rememb= er correctly it was discussed to be out-of-scope to simplify the scenarios = we focus on.

No-one wanted to de= fine new IPv4 fields for flow-ID and Seq-Num in the =E2=80=9Csunset of IPv4= =E2=80=9D.

- IPv6: based on th= e src-IPv6 and the flow-label NP can detect DetNet flows. Why would we need= a new

IP protocol type? <= /span>

=C2=A0

Generic vs. DN awar= e data plane:

- I think we need b= oth. We have use-cases specified for both.

=C2=A0

DetNet traffic to b= e transported:

- two types are con= sidered:

(1) Ethernet: IEEE TSN traffic encapsulated in Ethernet frames an= d

(2) IP: IPv6 transported over any L2 (not always Ethernet, but mo= st cases Ethernet)

As noted above IPv4 is currently out-of-scope =E2=80=A6=

=C2=A0

Cheers

Bala=E2=80=99zs

=C2=A0

From:= Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 16. 17:38
To: Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>= ;
Cc: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>= ;; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; DetNet WG <= detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy

On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote:

Stewart,

=C2=A0

Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be a= nother PW type), targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central controller, N= MS, etc.) are alternatives to RSVP and SR to provisioning/allocating the DE= TNET PW label.


.. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this purpose in VPNs

=C2=A0

You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS= ) case, we need a way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could have a ne= w IP protocol type for DETNET, and a DETNET header directly follows the IP = header. In that case, the DETNET header would also need a next protocol identifier, unless the next protocol is al= ways another IP header.


Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP extension header, al= though I am not a fan of those since (a) I am not confident what a router w= ill do one it does not understand, and (b) I am concerned about the need to= support IPv4 which I suspect will have a long tail in enterprise deployment.

I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal support through= any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers need to look a the UDP DP so= checking if it is one they need to work on is just one compare and conditi= onal branch.


=C2=A0

Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the iden= tifier.


Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this is sufficient.
- Stewart
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant <= stewart.bryan= t@gmail.com> wrote:

If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer the= n we really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one= through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, but we could introd= uce the concept, for example by making this the property of the IP address or some way of MPLSing IP.

However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our expectation= that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our expectation that at le= st in some networks the data plane is generic with some DN nodes strategica= lly placed?

I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers will all = be DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most networks we need to des= ign for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware.

- Stewart

=C2=A0

On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote:<= /p>

Hi Balazs,

=C2=A0

#2 is a more nature so= lution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, seems there is no compatibil= ity issue.

=C2=A0

In addition, I think w= e need to define a way on how to differentiate a DetNet flow from a non-Det= Net flow, then the network processor can process the CW as expected.=C2=A0 In TSN, it uses the priority to determine whether a = flow is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the same way (e= .g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself implies the situation, b= ut it seems that this only works when the DetNet service label is the top label. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

Any other thoughts?

=C2=A0

Best regards,

Mach<= /u>

=C2=A0

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM
To: DetNet WG &= lt;detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

=C2=A0

Hi,<= /u>

=C2=A0<= u>

Some th= oughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft.<= u>

This ma= il(-thread) is on sequence numbering.

=C2=A0<= u>

Problem= in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word:

- S/N s= kips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips zero.

It uses= zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448)

=C2=A0<= u>

Possibl= e problem resolutions:

#1: Usi= ng a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW:

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3<= /p>

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 = 8 9 0 1

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+-+-+

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0 16 bit Sequ= ence Number=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+-+-+

D-bit: = set to =E2=80=9C1=E2=80=9D means DetNet specific Seq. Number used,

Bit5-15= : reserved.

=C2=A0<= u>

RFC4448= states that reserved bits =E2=80=9CMUST be ignored upon receipt=E2=80=9D, = so backward

compati= bility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer seq.num.

formats= (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385.

=C2=A0<= u>

#2: Mak= ing =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D as a valid Seq.Num.

DetNet = flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet

domain.= S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions

(i.e. P= REF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No

other n= odes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its

own seq= uence number processing algorithm. So =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D can be a valid nu= mber

and not= the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with RFC4385.

=C2=A0<= u>

#3: Oth= er =E2=80=A6 ?!?

=C2=A0<= u>

Comment= s are welcome.

=C2=A0<= u>

Cheers<= u>

Bala= 9;zs

=C2=A0<= u>

-----Or= iginal Message-----
From: detnet [= mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger
Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 10. 19:01
To: DetNet WG <detn= et@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim

=C2=A0<= u>

is avai= lable for download at:

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3De511= 6bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301

=C2=A0<= u>

raw not= es are available at

http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-iet= f-interim-2018-detnet-01

=C2=A0<= u>

Please = feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording.

=C2=A0<= u>

Lou (an= d co-chairs)

=C2=A0<= u>

_______= ________________________________________

detnet = mailing list

detnet@ietf.org

https://www.ietf= .org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

=C2=A0<= /p> 

_______________________________________________

detnet mailing list


detnet@ietf.org


https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

--f40304354a50a12419056313efed-- From nobody Thu Jan 18 21:10:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 580AA128896 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 21:10:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qrFT1bhbR2-h for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 21:10:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B16412711E for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 21:10:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (unknown [119.94.164.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CE0A21801569; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 06:10:41 +0100 (CET) To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= , DetNet WG References: From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: <7bf069e6-2727-6d55-7247-58b515f71424@pi.nu> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 13:10:37 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 05:10:47 -0000 Folks, Thanks for the discussion on sequenced number, where they are used and what size they need to be. There seems to a few ideas floating around. This mail have #1 has a CW of 32 bits and a sequence number 16 bits. #2 has a CW of 32 bits (?) and a sequence number of 27 bits if the D-bit is thare (?), right? The draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol has a CW of 32 bits and a sequence number of 28 bits. Other ideas I've heard in discussion is to make the sequence number configurable. Questions: It has been said that that if anyone can give a use case where we need a sequence number bigger than 28 bits, we'll have to accommodate this. Is the jury still out on this, or can we say that 28 bits is enough?? Would 27 bit be enough? 16 bits?? Or might we even need a two byte CW? There is not much idea to start drawing figures of the CW unless we have an answer to that question. Honestly I don't have to much idea on ho to go about to get that answer. Any ideas? I think that the dt had some math on this in an early stage. Anyone that have that available? On the D-bit. Is it enough to have the D-bit set to determine if it is a DetNet flow? What if the D-bit is not set? /Loa On 2018-01-15 21:05, Balzs Varga A wrote: > Hi, > > Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft. > > This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. > > Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: > > - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips zero. > > It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) > > Possible problem resolutions: > > #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: > > 0 1 2 3 > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0 | 16 bit Sequence Number | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > D-bit: set to 1 means DetNet specific Seq. Number used, > > Bit5-15: reserved. > > RFC4448 states that reserved bits MUST be ignored upon receipt, so > backward > > compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer > seq.num. > > formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385. > > #2: Making 0 as a valid Seq.Num. > > DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet > > domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions > > (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No > > other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its > > own sequence number processing algorithm. So 0 can be a valid number > > and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with > RFC4385. > > #3: Other ?!? > > Comments are welcome. > > Cheers > > Bala'zs > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger > Sent: 2018. janur 10. 19:01 > To: DetNet WG > Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim > > is available for download at: > > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301 > > raw notes are available at > > http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 > > Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording. > > Lou (and co-chairs) > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > -- Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu Senior MPLS Expert Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Fri Jan 19 01:09:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC7A120454 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 01:09:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UzqVtCRi7ZT0 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 01:09:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DFDB1201F2 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 01:09:41 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b4dff70000007932-01-5a61b5d3f71d Received: from ESESSHC003.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.27]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 3D.A4.31026.3D5B16A5; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 10:09:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUR01-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (153.88.183.145) by oa.msg.ericsson.com (153.88.183.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.352.0; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 10:09:38 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ericsson.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-ericsson-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=0lCUsxKDA6HTeKU2l5G/B5WYvDPFalHC/pVr01O7Oo0=; b=J7tOUNZtRN084pM/cz8uaIIvHgdxWtzxydMAr9NvTl4EAsmarh1eqfrkDUTje5xsf69CpXmloWVFUChqsrPI4AczdhQFh+OUbVhrhKBnEcbkevof90b6t1tvQSxJT6/XxUG8lF/5z7tLs7oYBZBuvCZ9TMwy6LBI+0VnR3H1or8= Received: from VI1PR07MB1005.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.161.110.21) by VI1PR07MB3216.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.175.243.30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P256) id 15.20.428.9; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 09:09:36 +0000 Received: from VI1PR07MB1005.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a499:6fb2:56e6:33ad]) by VI1PR07MB1005.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a499:6fb2:56e6:33ad%13]) with mapi id 15.20.0428.014; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 09:09:36 +0000 From: =?utf-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBWYXJnYSBB?= To: "Andrew G. 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Malis" Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 07:25:32 -0500 Message-ID: To: Loa Andersson Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Varga_A?= , DetNet WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113cdbbc7438a20563202eaa" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 12:25:57 -0000 --001a113cdbbc7438a20563202eaa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Loa, We really don=E2=80=99t need a =E2=80=9CD=E2=80=9D bit, as we can allocate = a PW type to indicate that this is a DetNet PW, plus the context of the label can identify its use for a DetNet PW/flow. We DO need the first nibble to be zero. But beyond that, we are free to use all 28 bits as a sequence number, if there=E2=80=99s no need for either fla= gs or PW-layer fragmentation, which would require two bits. The key to determine the required number of bits in the sequence number is to determine, for the maximum expected rate of a DetNet flow, how long will it take to wrap around? For example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would reasonably equate to 833K pps, assuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap around in a little over one second with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with a 27-bit sequence number would wrap around in about 1 second. All that said, a second is a very long holding time for flows with constrained latency, so we could probably take two bits off those numbers and still be OK (wrap around in 250 ms). So 25 bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 bits gives us room for further BW growth in the future, approaching 1Tbps. Cheers, Andy On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Loa Andersson wrote: > Folks, > > Thanks for the discussion on sequenced number, where they are used and > what size they need to be. > > There seems to a few ideas floating around. > > This mail have #1 has a CW of 32 bits and a sequence number 16 bits. > > #2 has a CW of 32 bits (?) and a sequence number of 27 bits if the D-bit > is thare (?), right? > > The draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol has a CW of 32 bits and a sequence number of > 28 bits. > > Other ideas I've heard in discussion is to make the sequence number > configurable. > > Questions: > > It has been said that that if anyone can give a use case where we need a > sequence number bigger than 28 bits, we'll have to accommodate this. Is > the jury still out on this, or can we say that 28 bits is enough?? Would > 27 bit be enough? 16 bits?? Or might we even need a two byte CW? > > There is not much idea to start drawing figures of the CW unless we have > an answer to that question. > > Honestly I don't have to much idea on ho to go about to get that answer. > Any ideas? I think that the dt had some math on this in an early stage. > Anyone that have that available? > > On the D-bit. Is it enough to have the D-bit set to determine if it is > a DetNet flow? What if the D-bit is not set? > > /Loa > > > > > On 2018-01-15 21:05, Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draf= t. >> >> This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. >> >> Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: >> >> - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips >> zero. >> >> It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) >> >> Possible problem resolutions: >> >> #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: >> >> 0 1 2 3 >> >> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 >> >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >> >> |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0 | 16 bit Sequence Number | >> >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >> >> D-bit: set to =E2=80=9C1=E2=80=9D means DetNet specific Seq. Number used= , >> >> Bit5-15: reserved. >> >> RFC4448 states that reserved bits =E2=80=9CMUST be ignored upon receipt= =E2=80=9D, so >> backward >> >> compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer >> seq.num. >> >> formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385. >> >> #2: Making =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D as a valid Seq.Num. >> >> DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet >> >> domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions >> >> (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. N= o >> >> other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify it= s >> >> own sequence number processing algorithm. So =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D can be = a valid number >> >> and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with >> RFC4385. >> >> #3: Other =E2=80=A6 ?!? >> >> Comments are welcome. >> >> Cheers >> >> Bala'zs >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger >> Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 10. 19:01 >> To: DetNet WG >> Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim >> >> is available for download at: >> >> https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3De5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202= 301 >> >> raw notes are available at >> >> http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 >> >> Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording. >> >> Lou (and co-chairs) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> detnet mailing list >> >> detnet@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> >> > -- > > > Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu > Senior MPLS Expert > Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --001a113cdbbc7438a20563202eaa Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Loa,

We really don=E2=80=99t need a =E2= =80=9CD=E2=80=9D bit, as we can allocate a PW type to indicate that this is= a DetNet PW, plus the context of the label can identify its use for a DetN= et PW/flow.

We DO need the first nibble to be zero= . But beyond that, we are free to use all 28 bits as a sequence number, if = there=E2=80=99s no need for either flags or PW-layer fragmentation, which w= ould require two bits.

The key to determine the re= quired number of bits in the sequence number is to determine, for the maxim= um expected rate of a DetNet flow, how long will it take to wrap around?=C2= =A0

For example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would rea= sonably equate to 833K pps, assuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap aro= und in a little over one second with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with a 27-bit= sequence number would wrap around in about 1 second.=C2=A0

<= /div>
All that said, a second is a very long holding time for flows wit= h constrained latency, so we could probably take two bits off those numbers= and still be OK (wrap around in 250 ms).=C2=A0

So= 25 bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 bits gives us room = for further BW growth in the future, approaching 1Tbps.

Cheers,
Andy



On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 a= t 12:10 AM, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu> wrote:
Folks,

Thanks for the discussion on sequenced number, where they are used and
what size they need to be.

There seems to a few ideas floating around.

This mail have #1 has a CW of 32 bits and a sequence number 16 bits.

#2 has a CW of 32 bits (?) and a sequence number of 27 bits if the D-bit is thare (?), right?

The draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol has a CW of 32 bits and a sequence number of 2= 8 bits.

Other ideas I've heard in discussion is to make the sequence number
configurable.

Questions:

It has been said that that if anyone can give a use case where we need a sequence number bigger than 28 bits, we'll have to accommodate this. Is=
the jury still out on this, or can we say that 28 bits is enough?? Would 27 bit be enough? 16 bits?? Or might we even need a two byte CW?

There is not much idea to start drawing figures of the CW unless we have an answer to that question.

Honestly I don't have to much idea on ho to go about to get that answer= .
Any ideas? I think that the dt had some math on this in an early stage.
Anyone that have that available?

On the D-bit. Is it enough to have the D-bit set to determine if it is
a DetNet flow? What if the D-bit is not set?

/Loa




On 2018-01-15 21:05, Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A wrote:
Hi,

Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft.<= br>
This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering.

Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word:

- S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips zero= .

It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448)

Possible problem resolutions:

#1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 = 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0= =C2=A0 16 bit Sequence Number=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

D-bit: set to =E2=80=9C1=E2=80=9D means DetNet specific Seq. Number used,
Bit5-15: reserved.

RFC4448 states that reserved bits =E2=80=9CMUST be ignored upon receipt=E2= =80=9D, so backward

compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer se= q.num.

formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385.

#2: Making =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D as a valid Seq.Num.

DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet

domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions
(i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No
other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its
own sequence number processing algorithm. So =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D can be a v= alid number

and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with RFC438= 5.

#3: Other =E2=80=A6 ?!?

Comments are welcome.

Cheers

Bala'zs

-----Original Message-----
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger
Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 10. 19:01
To: DetNet WG <detn= et@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim

is available for download at:

https://ietf.webex.com/ie= tf/ldr.php?RCID=3De5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301

raw notes are available at

http://etherpad.tools.ietf.or= g:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01

Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording.

Lou (and co-chairs)

_______________________________________________

detnet mailing list

detnet@iet= f.org <mailto:d= etnet@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet



_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

--


Loa Andersson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS Expert
Huawei Technologies (consultant)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0phone: +46 739= 81 21 64


_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

--001a113cdbbc7438a20563202eaa-- From nobody Fri Jan 19 04:34:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46AE0126DEE for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 04:34:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zwiQBsEr3Dtf for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 04:33:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-x231.google.com (mail-oi0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 913CD127058 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 04:33:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi0-x231.google.com with SMTP id a184so1003424oif.7 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 04:33:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Xpe+V0QGe0/o6qlOFXdmmhNdHIk5PXlsweU89hiUagw=; b=nnVfXg1PqE8JpRlWiWhP88L19Q6/jmTlBdCcd2unL4XzNfJL5wywHnur+q3R9H1IWG JWHs2e94aP2fuBUipX4jyrveTRxgIkiLoBBM5jt9eHBIHDt39xXr1MT/6uSRGAjbzEem lbNrVHjdl4JS7M9YbwAeaVaC6oFActjlayeRNUnfPCJzdb6ZWTdsiYwWDqufvsR05IaT Ppl/+9XGjNyNluBqSv+0fHMoiLDAPeRNB/J3tnieMuLfwkroEEkl3BTDGNBTKjLna7D5 4dzbUYUTg2M45syBQyGdyVEJK/zwJ6eglgwh8m3pLlTErTVdBcACpzVVo821OXE6uZTu K5VQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Xpe+V0QGe0/o6qlOFXdmmhNdHIk5PXlsweU89hiUagw=; b=uSp28NF3FBLgogXq7Oh17Z364DkUKsSWRmtx8hOv/+xcjln9gM1uMZdnQEe+BOXRLe xEm9czBXS5iY+c0/m6CFesLSuLmogCM/9A0MhJVaINwpPLEyCL+7kR/s+L7xWmepVqSq ZopqYqHwd8Lum9htqBS+LaJudtvBIBB1HEXkLduBS1OVk685TuQt4k3MyxNnKkhX9hrd mXKdooP2zMbBBGcWt6pwD0vlcTdagxqYFMAz6/ugFJn9Qahysycn98KKzE0j6SDJWymn ahfav0XFCtFUOEyG1uPKw8sKFWb4ay2GErZ+xDv+FgU7AUh1lJhShoN9naLVkh2G0Bc6 ObKw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxyte0tehX4HlEvhyeNgVs5nfSwCvTQoFImfFoSbBnfbYOjK1kHl8H kA+SV+cJ6+6peDO1dQGqOeU8gIpZZ9dgalhT7MhrQg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBose+AeoeYKc4A2QAEI9nt/FicAL9sYkKF7eGYVUoC3I7TvJYcEq7zMbCoptTPbRYtvq8my50NN8sESSk0B3msg= X-Received: by 10.202.80.150 with SMTP id e144mr5114713oib.333.1516365235805; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 04:33:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.27.211 with HTTP; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 04:33:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <9d8fab9f-b5dd-6df0-1463-1c0eb63e8cdc@gmail.com> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 07:33:35 -0500 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Varga_A?= Cc: DetNet WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113d6c923ae6660563204bdc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 12:34:06 -0000 --001a113d6c923ae6660563204bdc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bal=C3=A1zs, Yes, I agree with this analysis. Cheers, Andy On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 4:09 AM, Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A wrote: > Hi Andy, > > > > Yes, good point. From DN flow perspective we have to cope with in-order > delivery. However, > > some detailed thoughts on the DN functions and their usage of S/N: > > - DN1, Congestion protection it is practically about QoS functions, which > works on a per flow > > level. It selects queues based on flow-ID. It does not consider S/N. > > - DN2, Explicit routes is practically traffic engineering. It does not > care about S/N, just flow-ID > > (which flow have to take which tunnel). > > - DN3, Service protection is the per packet 1+n protection, where the > elimination function is > based on S/N. > > > > This is why I wrote S/N is used only by the Service Protection function. > > > > But Your comment is fully valid and points for me to a possible missing D= N > function. We should > > consider to define an additional one: =E2=80=9CDN4 Frame ordering=E2=80= =9D. Such a > function would use both the > > flow-ID and the S/N. Its function is to ensure in order delivery if that > is required by the DetNet > > application. Best located at the egress-PE. Details need further > discussion. (Note: if the application > > has its own embedded seq.num in the flow it may not need in-order > delivery, etc.) > > > > I think that is a good idea and makes the DN functions more modular. Also > during the Elimination > > we can simple concentrate on duplicate detection and out-source in-order > delivery to DN4. > > > > So, we could end up in four DN functions: > > - DN1, Congestion protection > > - DN2, Explicit routes > > - DN3, Service protection > > - DN4, Frame ordering > > > > Cheers > > Bala=E2=80=99zs > > > > *From:* Andrew G. Malis [mailto:agmalis@gmail.com] > *Sent:* 2018. janu=C3=A1r 18. 22:49 > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A > *Cc:* DetNet WG > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) > > > > Bal=C3=A1zs, > > > > I agree with your conclusions regarding =E2=80=9CDetNet distance=E2=80=9D= . > > > > However, one point I think I disagree with you is when the sequence numbe= r > is necessary - you said only by the =E2=80=9Cservice protection=E2=80=9D = function=E2=80=9D. > However, as DetNet flows are indeed flows, and and most (if not all) > applications that will require DetNet will most probably require in-order > delivery, sequence numbers are generally useful for reordering at the > destination if packets get out of order during delivery by the underlying > network. > > > > Cheers, > > Andy > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 2:41 PM, Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A < > balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > some comments regarding what is needed for a "networks that are under a > single administrative control", based on the existing WG drafts (problem > statement, use-cases, architecture, etc.). Let's try to keep it simple an= d > focus on what we need: > > 1, Flow requirements: > > - loss and/or delay bounds > > 2, DetNet functions (defined so far): > > - DN1, Congestion protection (i.e. reserving resources, > magic queuing, etc.) > > - DN2, Explicit routes (i.e. traffic engineering) > > - DN3, Service protection (against loss by network > failures) > > Note: These three techniques can be applied independently, depending on > the Flow requirements and the network scenario. As an example, congestion > protection (DN1) alone is offered by IEEE 802.1 Audio Video bridging. > > > > 3, Flow specific information have to travel with the packet: > > - Flow-ID (required by all DetNet functions) > > - Sequence Number (required only by "Service Protection" > function) > > > > So, regarding the questions here on the list: > > - Do we need all nodes to be DN-aware in a network? > > Not necessarily. If in a network scenario DetNet flows require only for > example basic DN1 function than You have a good chance to serve it with > existing devices. However in some cases all DN functions are needed at ea= ch > hop, so yes, all nodes have to be DN aware. > > Conclusion: the more DN functions are needed in a network scenario to > serve DetNet flows, the more probably we need DN-aware nodes at each hop. > > > > - Do we need DetNet data-plane for IPv4, IPv6 and MPLS? > > Yes, that would be nice to have for all of them. But I think it is a > better question which one has the smallest distance to be DetNet-ready? (= I > mean which need the less new stuff to support DN?) The data-plane > alternative related draft focused on that and also the mailing threads > here. > > Conclusion: I think we can conclude on a rank of "smallest > DetNet-distance": > > 1, MPLS > > 2, IPv6 > > 3. IPv4 > > Note: in my view this is also the probability list what networks someone > intends to use to forward DetNet flows =E2=80=A6 > > > > Cheers > > VBala'zs > > > > *From:* detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Grossman, > Ethan A. > *Sent:* 2018. janu=C3=A1r 17. 19:51 > *To:* DetNet WG ; Deborah Brungard ; > Stewart Bryant > *Cc:* Tim Chown (Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk) > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) > > > > Thanks Stewart. Regarding: > > =E2=80=9CYes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a cons= ensus of > whether > a) We support v4 > b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions > c) We use a single common IP approach > d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS=E2=80=9D > > Perhaps, given Tim Chown=E2=80=99s earlier comment: > > =E2=80=9CIf you=E2=80=99re suggesting an IPv4-only solution, you= =E2=80=99re running up > against https://www.iab.org/2016/11/07/iab-statement-on-ipv6/.=E2=80=9D > > > > We could get Deborah with her AD hat on to comment on this? > > Ethan. > > > > *From:* Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com > ] > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 17, 2018 10:39 AM > *To:* Grossman, Ethan A. ; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A < > balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; Andrew G. Malis > *Cc:* DetNet WG ; Mach Chen > *Subject:* Re: DP solution (Flow identification) > > > > Hi Ethan, > > > > On 17/01/2018 18:24, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > Thanks Stewart for the clarification. I interpret your statement =E2=80= =9Ca > decision not to support IPv4=E2=80=9D to mean =E2=80=9Ca decision not to = propose adding > anything to the existing IPv4 standard=E2=80=9D. > > > To support IPv4 there are a number of methods that are possible, one is t= o > add something to v4 itself as is proposed for v6. Adding something to the > base protocol will be very difficult. > > Another method, is to do what has been proposed by some for MPLS, that is > to encode the identity and type in the IP address. There is a proposal to > do this in SRv6. I am not a great fan of abusing the address space for th= is > in the way proposed by that work, but maybe we can do something much > simpler here and simply identify the DN instance by the IP address with n= o > other semantics. Much easier to do this for IPv6 with the "infinite > addresses" but we could get away with it in limited private Ipv4 networks= . > Of course this does change the per-hop behaviour of IP which may be a > challenge to get the IETF to sign of on. > > Another method is to use some method of carrying an MPLS label stack - > this was the first proposal. Now I said that I did not think anyone had > done that and I still believe that to be the case, but that does not mean > that it is not the least worst approach. There are alternates for example > IP/UDP/MPLS > which is the so called USR approach that a number of us advocate as an > alternative to SRv6. > > If that isn=E2=80=99t correct, please let me know. As you may recall I al= ready > started a thread awhile ago to discuss IPv4 vs IPv6, and based on the > responses it appeared to me at that time that there were some kind of > options, though not a =E2=80=9Cnative IPv4=E2=80=9D solution, but it wasn= =E2=80=99t clear to me (as > a non-expert in the various networking protocols mentioned) whether they > would be viable in practice or not. I will revive that thread and see if = we > can get any closer to determining the importance of IPv4 to our target > customers, and hopefully some sense of whether the proposed non-native-IP= v4 > strategies will hold water. > > > Yes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a consensus of > whether > > a) We support v4 > b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions > c) We use a single common IP approach > d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS > > - Stewart > > Ethan. > > > > *From:* Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com > ] > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 17, 2018 12:29 AM > *To:* Grossman, Ethan A. ; Bal=C3=A1= zs > Varga A ; > Andrew G. Malis > *Cc:* DetNet WG ; Mach Chen > > *Subject:* Re: DP solution (Flow identification) > > > > > > > > On 16/01/2018 18:38, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > Hi Bala=E2=80=99zs, > > Regarding IPv4, I also understood that we decided that we can=E2=80=99t a= dd new > IPv4 fields. Pardon my ignorance here, but does that mean there is no par= t > of DetNet capability that can be run over IPv4? Or is there some > =E2=80=9Cworkaround=E2=80=9D to provide as I say even part of the DetNet = capability, given > that it is an Engineered network? I just want to clarify expectations her= e. > > > If you have a native IPv4 network to which you present IPv6 packets, you > either have to tunnel them across where the IPv6 is considered opaque dat= a, > or you have to translate them to IPv4, but that requires some common > semantics to deal with extension headers which we don't currently have. > > So, as far as I can see, a decision not to support IPv4 means no DN > support across the IPv4 network. > > Which takes us back to the question of how important is this and what wil= l > it do to the take-up of the technology by its target customers? > > - Stewart > > Thanks, > > Ethan. > > > > *From:* detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org ]= *On > Behalf Of *Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 16, 2018 10:21 AM > *To:* Stewart Bryant ; > Andrew G. Malis > *Cc:* DetNet WG ; Mach Chen > > *Subject:* [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) > > > > I think the last mails are more about flow identification and not the > sequence number. > > So, I have re-subjected my answer. > > > > PSN layer vs. DN layer (MPLS): > > - in current data plane text we have stated that DetNet PWs may use > dedicated LSPs (TE-tunnels). > > That allow to identify DetNet flows in PSN layer without checking the PW > label. Such a solution of > > course may challenge scalability. > > - regarding prioritization: text allows both E-LSP and L-LSP concept, wha= t > makes possible > > to identify DetNet packets. However that is more for simple queuing > scenarios as it does not > > identify individual flows. > > > > PSN layer vs. DN layer (non-MPLS): > > - IPv4: If I remember correctly it was discussed to be out-of-scope to > simplify the scenarios we focus on. > > No-one wanted to define new IPv4 fields for flow-ID and Seq-Num in the > =E2=80=9Csunset of IPv4=E2=80=9D. > > - IPv6: based on the src-IPv6 and the flow-label NP can detect DetNet > flows. Why would we need a new > > IP protocol type? > > > > Generic vs. DN aware data plane: > > - I think we need both. We have use-cases specified for both. > > > > DetNet traffic to be transported: > > - two types are considered: > > (1) Ethernet: IEEE TSN traffic encapsulated in Ethernet frames and > > (2) IP: IPv6 transported over any L2 (not always Ethernet, but most cases > Ethernet) > > As noted above IPv4 is currently out-of-scope =E2=80=A6 > > > > Cheers > > Bala=E2=80=99zs > > > > *From:* Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com > ] > *Sent:* 2018. janu=C3=A1r 16. 17:38 > *To:* Andrew G. Malis > *Cc:* Mach Chen ; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A < > balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; DetNet WG > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > > > > > > Andy > > On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > Stewart, > > > > Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be another PW type), > targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central controller, NMS, etc.) are > alternatives to RSVP and SR to provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW labe= l. > > > .. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this purpose in VPNs > > > > You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) case, we need a way > for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could have a new IP protocol type f= or > DETNET, and a DETNET header directly follows the IP header. In that case, > the DETNET header would also need a next protocol identifier, unless the > next protocol is always another IP header. > > > Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP extension header, > although I am not a fan of those since (a) I am not confident what a rout= er > will do one it does not understand, and (b) I am concerned about the need > to support IPv4 which I suspect will have a long tail in enterprise > deployment. > > I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal support > through any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers need to look a the > UDP DP so checking if it is one they need to work on is just one compare > and conditional branch. > > > > Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the identifier. > > > Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this is sufficient. > > - Stewart > > > > > Cheers, > > Andy > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant > wrote: > > If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer then > we really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one > through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, but we could > introduce the concept, for example by making this the property of the IP > address or some way of MPLSing IP. > > However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our expectation > that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our expectation that at > lest in some networks the data plane is generic with some DN nodes > strategically placed? > > I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers will all b= e > DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most networks we need to desi= gn > for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware. > > - Stewart > > > > On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote: > > Hi Balazs, > > > > #2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, seem= s > there is no compatibility issue. > > > > In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to differentiate a > DetNet flow from a non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can proces= s > the CW as expected. In TSN, it uses the priority to determine whether a > flow is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the same way > (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself implies the situatio= n, > but it seems that this only works when the DetNet service label is the to= p > label. > > > > Any other thoughts? > > > > Best regards, > > Mach > > > > *From:* detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org ]= *On > Behalf Of *Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A > *Sent:* Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM > *To:* DetNet WG > *Subject:* [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > > > > Hi, > > > > Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft= . > > This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. > > > > Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: > > - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips > zero. > > It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) > > > > Possible problem resolutions: > > #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: > > 0 1 2 3 > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0 | 16 bit Sequence Number | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > D-bit: set to =E2=80=9C1=E2=80=9D means DetNet specific Seq. Number used, > > Bit5-15: reserved. > > > > RFC4448 states that reserved bits =E2=80=9CMUST be ignored upon receipt= =E2=80=9D, so > backward > > compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer > seq.num. > > formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385. > > > > #2: Making =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D as a valid Seq.Num. > > DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet > > domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions > > (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No > > other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its > > own sequence number processing algorithm. So =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D can be a= valid number > > and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with > RFC4385. > > > > #3: Other =E2=80=A6 ?!? > > > > Comments are welcome. > > > > Cheers > > Bala'zs > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org ] > On Behalf Of Lou Berger > Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 10. 19:01 > To: DetNet WG > Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim > > > > is available for download at: > > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3De5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf2023= 01 > > > > > raw notes are available at > > http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 > > > > > Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording. > > > > Lou (and co-chairs) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > --001a113d6c923ae6660563204bdc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bal=C3=A1zs= ,

Yes, I agree with thi= s analysis.

Cheer= s,
Andy



On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 4:09 AM, Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A <bal= azs.a.varga@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi Andy,

=C2=A0

Yes, good point. From DN flow perspective we have to= cope with in-order delivery. However,

some detailed thoughts on the DN functions and their= usage of S/N:

- DN1, Congestion protection it is practically about= QoS functions, which works on a per flow

level. It selects queues based on flow-ID. It does n= ot consider S/N.

- DN2, Explicit routes is practically traffic engine= ering. It does not care about S/N, just flow-ID

(which flow have to take which tunnel).

- DN3, Service protection is the per packet 1+n prot= ection, where the elimination function is
based on S/N.

=C2=A0

This is why I wrote S/N is used only by the Service = Protection function.

=C2=A0

But Your comment is fully valid and points for me to= a possible missing DN function. We should

consider to define an additional one: =E2=80=9CDN4 F= rame ordering=E2=80=9D. Such a function would use both the

flow-ID and the S/N. Its function is to ensure in or= der delivery if that is required by the DetNet

application. Best located at the egress-PE. Details = need further discussion. (Note: if the application

has its own embedded seq.num in the flow it may not = need in-order delivery, etc.)

=C2=A0

I think that is a good idea and makes the DN functio= ns more modular. Also during the Elimination

we can simple concentrate on duplicate detection and= out-source in-order delivery to DN4.

=C2=A0

So, we could end up in four DN functions:<= /u>

- DN1, Congestion protection

- DN2, Explicit routes

- DN3, Service protection

- DN4, Frame ordering

=C2=A0

Cheers

Bala=E2=80=99zs

=C2=A0

From: Andrew G. Malis [mailto:agmalis@gmail.com]
Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 18. 22:49
To: Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification)

=C2=A0

Bal=C3=A1zs,

=C2=A0

I agree with your conclusions regarding =E2=80=9CDet= Net distance=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0

However, one point I think I disagree with you is wh= en the sequence number is necessary - you said only by the =E2=80=9Cservice= protection=E2=80=9D function=E2=80=9D. However, as DetNet flows are indeed= flows, and and most (if not all) applications that will require DetNet will most probably require in-order delivery, sequence numbers are = generally useful for reordering at the destination if packets get out of or= der during delivery by the underlying network.

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 2:41 PM, Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A= <balaz= s.a.varga@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

some comments regarding what is needed for a "n= etworks that are under a single administrative control", based on the = existing WG drafts (problem statement, use-cases, architecture, etc.). Let's try to keep it simple and focus on what we need:

1, Flow requirements:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - loss and/or delay bounds

2, DetNet functions (defined so far):

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - DN1, Congestion protection (i.e. = reserving resources, magic queuing, etc.)

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - DN2, Explicit routes (i.e. traffi= c engineering)

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - DN3, Service protection (against = loss by network failures)

Note: These three techniques can be applied independ= ently, depending on the Flow requirements and the network scenario. As an e= xample, congestion protection (DN1) alone is offered by IEEE 802.1 Audio Video bridging.

=C2=A0

3, Flow specific information have to travel with the= packet:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - Flow-ID (required by all DetNet f= unctions)

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - Sequence Number (required only by= "Service Protection" function)

=C2=A0

So, regarding the questions here on the list:=

- Do we need all nodes to be DN-aware in a network?<= u>

Not necessarily. If in a network scenario DetNet flo= ws require only for example basic DN1 function than You have a good chance = to serve it with existing devices. However in some cases all DN functions are needed at each hop, so yes, all nodes have to b= e DN aware.

Conclusion: the more DN functions are needed in a ne= twork scenario to serve DetNet flows, the more probably we need DN-aware no= des at each hop.

=C2=A0

- Do we need DetNet data-plane for IPv4, IPv6 and MP= LS?

Yes, that would be nice to have for all of them. But= I think it is a better question which one has the smallest distance to be = DetNet-ready? (I mean which need the less new stuff to support DN?) The data-plane alternative related draft focused on that a= nd also the mailing threads here.

Conclusion: I think we can conclude on a rank of &qu= ot;smallest DetNet-distance":

1, MPLS

2, IPv6

3. IPv4

Note: in my view this is also the probability list w= hat networks someone intends to use to forward DetNet flows =E2=80=A6

=C2=A0

Cheers

VBala'zs

=C2=A0

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Grossman, Ethan A.
Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 17. 19:51
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Deborah Brungard <db3546@att.com>; Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmai= l.com>
Cc: Tim Chown (Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk) <Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification)

=C2=A0

Thanks Stewart. Regarding:

=E2=80=9CYes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a co= nsensus of whether
a) We support v4
b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions
c) We use a single common IP approach
d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS=E2=80=9D<= /u>

Perhaps, given Tim Chown=E2=80=99s earlier comment:<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9C= If you=E2=80=99re suggesting an IPv4-only solution, you=E2=80=99re running = up against https://www.iab.org/2016/11/07/iab-statement-on-ipv6/.=E2= =80=9D

=C2=A0

We could get Deborah with her AD hat on to comment o= n this?

Ethan.

=C2=A0

From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com= ]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 10:39 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsso= n.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: DP solution (Flow identification)

=C2=A0

Hi=C2=A0 Ethan,

=C2=A0

On 17/01/2018 18:24, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Thanks Stewart for the clarification. I interpret yo= ur statement =E2=80=9Ca decision not to support IPv4=E2=80=9D to mean =E2= =80=9Ca decision not to propose adding anything to the existing IPv4 standa= rd=E2=80=9D.


To support IPv4 there are a number of methods that are possible, one is to = add something to v4 itself as is proposed for v6. Adding something to the b= ase protocol will be very difficult.

Another method, is to do what has been proposed by some for MPLS, that is t= o encode the identity and type in the IP address. There is a proposal to do= this in SRv6. I am not a great fan of abusing the address space for this i= n the way proposed by that work, but maybe we can do something much simpler here and simply identify the DN= instance by the IP address with no other semantics. Much easier to do this= for IPv6 with the "infinite addresses" but we could get away wit= h it in limited private Ipv4 networks. Of course this does change the per-hop behaviour of IP which may be a challen= ge to get the IETF to sign of on.

Another method is to use some method of carrying an MPLS label stack - this= was the first proposal. Now I said that I did not think anyone had done th= at and I still believe that to be the case, but that does not mean that it = is not the least worst approach. There are alternates for example IP/UDP/MPLS
which is the so called USR approach that a number of us advocate as an alte= rnative to SRv6.

If that isn=E2=80=99t correct, please let me know. A= s you may recall I already started a thread awhile ago to discuss IPv4 vs I= Pv6, and based on the responses it appeared to me at that time that there were some kind of options, though not a =E2=80=9Cnative IP= v4=E2=80=9D solution, but it wasn=E2=80=99t clear to me (as a non-expert in= the various networking protocols mentioned) whether they would be viable i= n practice or not. I will revive that thread and see if we can get any closer to determining the importance of IPv4 to our target = customers, and hopefully some sense of whether the proposed non-native-IPv4= strategies will hold water.


Yes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a consensus of wh= ether

a) We support v4
b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions
c) We use a single common IP approach
d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS

- Stewart

Ethan.

=C2=A0

From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com= ]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 12:29 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A <balazs= .a.varga@ericsson.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.co= m>
Cc: DetNet WG &= lt;detnet@ietf.org>; Mach Chen <mach.chen@hua= wei.com>
Subject: Re: DP solution (Flow identification)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On 16/01/2018 18:38, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Hi Bala=E2=80=99zs,

Regarding IPv4, I also understood that we decided th= at we can=E2=80=99t add new IPv4 fields. Pardon my ignorance here, but does= that mean there is no part of DetNet capability that can be run over IPv4? Or is there some =E2=80=9Cworkaround=E2=80=9D to provide= as I say even part of the DetNet capability, given that it is an Engineere= d network? I just want to clarify expectations here.


If you have a native IPv4 network to which you present IPv6 packets, you ei= ther have to tunnel them across where the IPv6 is considered opaque data, o= r you have to translate them to IPv4, but that requires some common semanti= cs to deal with extension headers which we don't currently have.

So, as far as I can see, a decision not to support IPv4 means no DN support= across the IPv4 network.

Which takes us back to the question of how important is this and what will = it do to the take-up of the technology by its target customers?

- Stewart

Thanks,

Ethan.

=C2=A0

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 10:21 AM
To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: DetNet WG &= lt;detnet@ietf.org>; Mach Chen <mach.chen@hua= wei.com>
Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification)

=C2=A0

I think the last mails are more about flow identific= ation and not the sequence number.

So, I have re-subjected my answer.

=C2=A0

PSN layer vs. DN layer (MPLS):

- in current data plane text we have stated that Det= Net PWs may use dedicated LSPs (TE-tunnels).

That allow to identify DetNet flows in PSN layer wit= hout checking the PW label. Such a solution of

course may challenge scalability.

- regarding prioritization: text allows both E-LSP a= nd L-LSP concept, what makes possible

to identify DetNet packets. However that is more for= simple queuing scenarios as it does not

identify individual flows.

=C2=A0

PSN layer vs. DN layer (non-MPLS):

- IPv4: If I remember correctly it was discussed to = be out-of-scope to simplify the scenarios we focus on.

No-one wanted to define new IPv4 fields for flow-ID = and Seq-Num in the =E2=80=9Csunset of IPv4=E2=80=9D.

- IPv6: based on the src-IPv6 and the flow-label NP = can detect DetNet flows. Why would we need a new

IP protocol type?

=C2=A0

Generic vs. DN aware data plane:

- I think we need both. We have use-cases specified = for both.

=C2=A0

DetNet traffic to be transported:

- two types are considered:

(1) Ethernet: IEEE TSN traffic encapsulated in Ethernet frames and <= u>

(2) IP: IPv6 transported over any L2 (not always Ethernet, but most cases E= thernet)

As noted above IPv4 is currently out-of-scope =E2=80=A6

=C2=A0

Cheers

Bala=E2=80=99zs

=C2=A0

From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com= ]
Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 16. 17:38
To: Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson= .com>; DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Andy

On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote:

Stewart,

=C2=A0

Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be a= nother PW type), targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central controller, N= MS, etc.) are alternatives to RSVP and SR to provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW label.


.. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this purpose in VPNs

=C2=A0

You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS= ) case, we need a way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could have a ne= w IP protocol type for DETNET, and a DETNET header directly follows the IP header. In that case, the DETNET header would also= need a next protocol identifier, unless the next protocol is always anothe= r IP header.


Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP extension header, al= though I am not a fan of those since (a) I am not confident what a router w= ill do one it does not understand, and (b) I am concerned about the need to= support IPv4 which I suspect will have a long tail in enterprise deployment.

I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal support through= any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers need to look a the UDP DP so= checking if it is one they need to work on is just one compare and conditi= onal branch.

=C2=A0

Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the iden= tifier.


Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this is sufficient.
- Stewart
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant <= stewart.bryan= t@gmail.com> wrote:

If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer the= n we really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one= through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, but we could introd= uce the concept, for example by making this the property of the IP address or some way of MPLSing IP.

However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our expectation= that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our expectation that at le= st in some networks the data plane is generic with some DN nodes strategica= lly placed?

I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers will all = be DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most networks we need to des= ign for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware.

- Stewart

=C2=A0

On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote:<= /p>

Hi Balazs,

=C2=A0

#2 is a more nature so= lution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, seems there is no compatibil= ity issue.

=C2=A0

In addition, I think w= e need to define a way on how to differentiate a DetNet flow from a non-Det= Net flow, then the network processor can process the CW as expected.=C2=A0 In TSN, it uses the priority to determine whether a = flow is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the same way (e= .g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself implies the situation, b= ut it seems that this only works when the DetNet service label is the top label. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

Any other thoughts?

=C2=A0

Best regards,

Mach<= /u>

=C2=A0

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM
To: DetNet WG &= lt;detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP sol= ution draft.

This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering.

=C2=A0

Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word:=

- S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S= /N skips zero.

It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448)

=C2=A0

Possible problem resolutions:

#1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the = CW:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 = 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0= =C2=A0 16 bit Sequence Number=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

D-bit: set to =E2=80=9C1=E2=80=9D means DetNet specific Seq. N= umber used,

Bit5-15: reserved.

=C2=A0

RFC4448 states that reserved bits =E2=80=9CMUST be ignored upo= n receipt=E2=80=9D, so backward

compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to = use longer seq.num.

formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385= .

=C2=A0

#2: Making =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D as a valid Seq.Num.

DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the D= etNet

domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service= functions

(i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet rela= y-nodes. No

other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can = specify its

own sequence number processing algorithm. So =E2=80=9C0=E2=80= =9D can be a valid number

and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inlin= e with RFC4385.

=C2=A0

#3: Other =E2=80=A6 ?!?

=C2=A0

Comments are welcome.

=C2=A0

Cheers

Bala'zs

=C2=A0

-----Original Message-----
From: detnet [= mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger
Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 10. 19:01
To: DetNet WG <detn= et@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim

=C2=A0

is available for download at:

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.p= hp?RCID=3De5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301

=C2=A0

raw notes are available at

http://etherpad.tools.ietf.= org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01<= /p>

=C2=A0

Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording= .

=C2=A0

Lou (and co-chairs)

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________=

detnet mailing list

detnet@ietf.org<= /u>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet<= /u>

=C2=A0<= /p> 

_______________________________________________

detnet mailing list


detnet@ietf.org


https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

=C2=A0


--001a113d6c923ae6660563204bdc-- From nobody Fri Jan 19 08:30:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDF4012DA28 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 08:30:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3sUIodPPfqcg for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 08:30:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96BCE12DA24 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 08:30:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (unknown [119.94.164.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 32C401801569; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 17:30:02 +0100 (CET) To: "Andrew G. Malis" Cc: DetNet WG , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= References: <7bf069e6-2727-6d55-7247-58b515f71424@pi.nu> From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 00:29:55 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 16:30:16 -0000 Andy, On 2018-01-19 20:25, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Loa, > > We really don’t need a “D” bit, as we can allocate a PW type to indicate > that this is a DetNet PW, plus the context of the label can identify its > use for a DetNet PW/flow. Fine, however we have at least diverging opinions, that both say that we should not use PWs - first we have people that believe that we should use EVPN instead - second there are people that say that we should define what is necessary for DetNet and then specify that independent of EVPN and PWs We need a consensus on that before we can start the design according to one or the other of those paradigms. > > We DO need the first nibble to be zero. But beyond that, we are free to > use all 28 bits as a sequence number, if there’s no need for either > flags or PW-layer fragmentation, which would require two bits. > > The key to determine the required number of bits in the sequence number > is to determine, for the maximum expected rate of a DetNet flow, how > long will it take to wrap around? Isn't that only part of the truth? We are not concerned only by the fact that the source might sue the same sequence number again, but that a struggling packet might show up at a point in the network where a wrap around just happened. > > For example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would reasonably equate to 833K > pps, assuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap around in a little over > one second with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with a 27-bit sequence number > would wrap around in about 1 second. > > All that said, a second is a very long holding time for flows with > constrained latency, so we could probably take two bits off those > numbers and still be OK (wrap around in 250 ms). > > So 25 bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 bits gives us > room for further BW growth in the future, approaching 1Tbps. I think that we need to design for Tbps (or worse), but that is another thing we need consensus on before starting to specify. /Loa > > Cheers, > Andy > > > > On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Loa Andersson > wrote: > > Folks, > > Thanks for the discussion on sequenced number, where they are used and > what size they need to be. > > There seems to a few ideas floating around. > > This mail have #1 has a CW of 32 bits and a sequence number 16 bits. > > #2 has a CW of 32 bits (?) and a sequence number of 27 bits if the D-bit > is thare (?), right? > > The draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol has a CW of 32 bits and a sequence > number of 28 bits. > > Other ideas I've heard in discussion is to make the sequence number > configurable. > > Questions: > > It has been said that that if anyone can give a use case where we need a > sequence number bigger than 28 bits, we'll have to accommodate this. Is > the jury still out on this, or can we say that 28 bits is enough?? Would > 27 bit be enough? 16 bits?? Or might we even need a two byte CW? > > There is not much idea to start drawing figures of the CW unless we have > an answer to that question. > > Honestly I don't have to much idea on ho to go about to get that answer. > Any ideas? I think that the dt had some math on this in an early stage. > Anyone that have that available? > > On the D-bit. Is it enough to have the D-bit set to determine if it is > a DetNet flow? What if the D-bit is not set? > > /Loa > > > > > On 2018-01-15 21:05, Balázs Varga A wrote: > > Hi, > > Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP > solution draft. > > This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. > > Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: > > - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N > skips zero. > > It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) > > Possible problem resolutions: > > #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: > >        0                   1 > 2                   3 > >        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 > 8 9 0 1 > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > >       |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0  |   16 bit Sequence > Number      | > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > D-bit: set to “1” means DetNet specific Seq. Number used, > > Bit5-15: reserved. > > RFC4448 states that reserved bits “MUST be ignored upon > receipt”, so backward > > compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to > use longer seq.num. > > formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385. > > #2: Making “0” as a valid Seq.Num. > > DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet > > domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service > functions > > (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet > relay-nodes. No > > other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can > specify its > > own sequence number processing algorithm. So “0” can be a valid > number > > and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline > with RFC4385. > > #3: Other … ?!? > > Comments are welcome. > > Cheers > > Bala'zs > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org > ] On Behalf Of Lou Berger > Sent: 2018. január 10. 19:01 > To: DetNet WG > > Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim > > is available for download at: > > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301 > > > raw notes are available at > > http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 > > > Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording. > > Lou (and co-chairs) > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > -- > > > Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu > Senior MPLS Expert > Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64 > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > -- Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu Senior MPLS Expert Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Fri Jan 19 10:37:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16087128959 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 10:37:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bH5RXf7sI2AD for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 10:37:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot0-x22a.google.com (mail-ot0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8B27128954 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 10:37:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id f100so2205071otf.3 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 10:37:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Mvc3ZYfiCqcS+Xq1b2hOgHc0qj/j7pKE0Or/IDwQtSM=; b=HTEztakgkZSZqJX4k+qBmWEXTEAPS6W0TSAbYNTr7ECvvSrzMFAzumUkvDFU962gc9 eGdnOWAaIyHcQFK98hmPcJQMacCsKfYyksX+y6a3DPbrI5ST2Jdh01fwY+LeP2nAs19i I1655/+DG9dWwmTpt+g8Ve0/LVDTrxUpugVaYRikGwsK//Or3M9VN6IGeEh7NxP/kjgD TyKT4uzf9Ok2f0BaG56wSqm2EqNTjdx2/JMWD7hT/BDhp6wyaK8K7Np15IFpQSaN29f4 0WInAFJ/ag+K0U3cZ2WM4oXGlSfxvpvFFgN59+Vq4s/3hvhcTvot2uI563yVtv9g825K A0/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Mvc3ZYfiCqcS+Xq1b2hOgHc0qj/j7pKE0Or/IDwQtSM=; b=rRP1gTD17oRrksJ8cPed5Kf/2vYmt4Iwn6vWv+UfXoRRMUdlp62SLy+8tEZAVwyJBE 8tq5/x8E+OiTau+/3Aq9z+3YXxDewURyi4CkzDWOIWb5fwuCn8IBA6saKN9gcwC5qVJZ yHF12Z0Xiilo38aGqSbphZguHNvWyxHbivV3o1dOq4RaRbNR/QS6saBfSyOGhRJJPH0H wQHK7060sGWdQpsJZXAAT/ZOfkaxOJtu3m5RkiUoZcEeOIyp1/tIN7riWIaOtXo7w7IN 2eXigzkmjE0UdczKoXvbkTyAF97ovpeUIx88udDzJZRG2fjoZ7TsDtnX56DRYmkpkkDs AZGw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxyte8cyUi+/vQ4bKEY0h8FcepaSz7bGsvJoGowG8oNWhmRfi5sTv/ ygriY8pdhyuJDlrm01U0jZliHr5GOaN8i6ORjN4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBot8oUqUhy+G7snkKdWkAZPrji6PoI0+0ZRjo+X38QLWGM0r3VRly6G0ROTrMBqP2tbEoqQ9vZ+cc0pKLJy1Qgg= X-Received: by 10.157.15.97 with SMTP id 88mr6920030ott.223.1516387023984; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 10:37:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.27.211 with HTTP; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 10:36:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7bf069e6-2727-6d55-7247-58b515f71424@pi.nu> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 13:36:43 -0500 Message-ID: To: Loa Andersson Cc: DetNet WG , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Varga_A?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c04c9a8e81de50563255d27" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 18:37:07 -0000 --94eb2c04c9a8e81de50563255d27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Loa, You=E2=80=99re right, we do need to think about the maximum lifetime of an = errant packet in the network as well, thanks for that. You=E2=80=99re also correct that we need to define what=E2=80=99s optimal f= or DETNET, however we do have a charter constraint. To quote Lou=E2=80=99s recent emai= l, "We are not expected to come up with new encapsulations, but rather how DetNet uses what exists today. =E2=80=9C. So we can=E2=80=99t be TOO creative ... I=E2=80=99m really interested to hear what other people have to say about t= he upper limit of flow BW that DetNet needs to support, and I also made an assumption in my math that an average DetNet packet (at least for a very large flow) would be 1500 bytes. Do we have consensus on that as well? That also has implications for the sequence number length. Cheers, Andy On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 11:29 AM, Loa Andersson wrote: > Andy, > > > On 2018-01-19 20:25, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > >> Loa, >> >> We really don=E2=80=99t need a =E2=80=9CD=E2=80=9D bit, as we can alloca= te a PW type to indicate >> that this is a DetNet PW, plus the context of the label can identify its >> use for a DetNet PW/flow. >> > > Fine, however we have at least diverging opinions, that both say that we > should not use PWs > - first we have people that believe that we should use EVPN instead > - second there are people that say that we should define what is > necessary for DetNet and then specify that independent of EVPN and PWs > > We need a consensus on that before we can start the design according to > one or the other of those paradigms. > >> >> We DO need the first nibble to be zero. But beyond that, we are free to >> use all 28 bits as a sequence number, if there=E2=80=99s no need for eit= her flags >> or PW-layer fragmentation, which would require two bits. >> >> The key to determine the required number of bits in the sequence number >> is to determine, for the maximum expected rate of a DetNet flow, how lon= g >> will it take to wrap around? >> > > Isn't that only part of the truth? We are not concerned only by the fact > that the source might sue the same sequence number again, but that a > struggling packet might show up at a point in the network where a wrap > around just happened. > >> >> For example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would reasonably equate to 833K pps= , >> assuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap around in a little over one >> second with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with a 27-bit sequence number would >> wrap around in about 1 second. >> >> All that said, a second is a very long holding time for flows with >> constrained latency, so we could probably take two bits off those number= s >> and still be OK (wrap around in 250 ms). >> >> So 25 bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 bits gives us >> room for further BW growth in the future, approaching 1Tbps. >> > > I think that we need to design for Tbps (or worse), but that is another > thing we need consensus on before starting to specify. > > /Loa > >> >> Cheers, >> Andy >> >> > --94eb2c04c9a8e81de50563255d27 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Loa,

You=E2=80=99re right, we do need t= o think about the maximum lifetime of an errant packet in the network as we= ll, thanks for that.

You=E2=80=99re also correct t= hat we need to define what=E2=80=99s optimal for DETNET, however we do have= a charter constraint. To quote Lou=E2=80=99s recent email, "We are not expected to come up with n= ew encapsulations, but rather how DetNet uses what exists today.=C2=A0=E2= =80=9C. So we can=E2=80=99t be TOO creative ...

I=E2=80=99m real= ly interested to hear what other people have to say about the upper limit o= f flow BW that DetNet needs to support, and I also made an assumption in my= math that an average DetNet packet (at least for a very large flow) would = be 1500 bytes. Do we have consensus on that as well? That also has implicat= ions for the sequence number length.

Cheers,
=
Andy

On= Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 11:29 AM, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu> wrote:
=
Andy,


On 2018-01-19 20:25, Andrew G. Malis wrote:
Loa,

We really don=E2=80=99t need a =E2=80=9CD=E2=80=9D bit, as we can allocate = a PW type to indicate that this is a DetNet PW, plus the context of the lab= el can identify its use for a DetNet PW/flow.

 Fine, however we have at least diverging opinions, that both say that we sh= ould not use PWs
- first we have people that believe that we should use EVPN instead
- second there are people that say that we should define what is
=C2=A0 necessary for DetNet and then specify that independent of EVPN and P= Ws

We need a consensus on that before we can start the design according to
one or the other of those paradigms.

We DO need the first nibble to be zero. But beyond that, we are free to use= all 28 bits as a sequence number, if there=E2=80=99s no need for either fl= ags or PW-layer fragmentation, which would require two bits.

The key to determine the required number of bits in the sequence number is = to determine, for the maximum expected rate of a DetNet flow, how long will= it take to wrap around?

 Isn't that only part of the truth? We are not concerned only by the fac= t that the source might sue the same sequence number again, but that a stru= ggling packet might show up at a point in the network where a wrap
around just happened.

For example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would reasonably equate to 833K pps, a= ssuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap around in a little over one seco= nd with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with a 27-bit sequence number would wrap a= round in about 1 second.

All that said, a second is a very long holding time for flows with constrai= ned latency, so we could probably take two bits off those numbers and still= be OK (wrap around in 250 ms).

So 25 bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 bits gives us roo= m for further BW growth in the future, approaching 1Tbps.

 I think that we need to design for Tbps (or worse), but that is another
thing we need consensus on before starting to specify.

/Loa

Cheers,
Andy



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T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id umgnAa7NILhv for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2018 22:28:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D333D126CD8 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2018 22:28:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (unknown [119.94.164.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C84EE18013B2; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 07:28:39 +0100 (CET) To: "Andrew G. Malis" Cc: DetNet WG , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= References: <7bf069e6-2727-6d55-7247-58b515f71424@pi.nu> From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: <1113ebaf-1477-59e9-982b-d14c0dbb5c79@pi.nu> Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 14:28:34 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 06:28:45 -0000 Andy, all, (I thought I sent a response to this, but it never did show up, so re-sending. Apologize if there are duplicates). So we all agree that we need the sequence number for elimination purposes. We still need to agree on the size and format of the sequence number What will impact the calculation of the sequence number size are: - the maximum sustained DetNet flow BW - the minimum average packet size of a DetNet flow - the maximum lifetime of an errant packet My guesstimate is that we need to allow for a sustained BW of 1 Tbs, that the average packet size is less that 1500 bytes and that the life time of an errant packet is at least 500 ms. But we obviously need better answers than that to be able to calculate the sequence number size we med. Any takers?? /Loa On 2018-01-20 02:36, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Loa, > > You’re right, we do need to think about the maximum lifetime of an > errant packet in the network as well, thanks for that. > > You’re also correct that we need to define what’s optimal for DETNET, > however we do have a charter constraint. To quote Lou’s recent email, > "We are not expected to come up with new encapsulations, but rather how > DetNet uses what exists today. “. So we can’t be TOO creative ... > > I’m really interested to hear what other people have to say about the > upper limit of flow BW that DetNet needs to support, and I also made an > assumption in my math that an average DetNet packet (at least for a very > large flow) would be 1500 bytes. Do we have consensus on that as well? > That also has implications for the sequence number length. > > Cheers, > Andy > > On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 11:29 AM, Loa Andersson > wrote: > > Andy, > > > On 2018-01-19 20:25, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > Loa, > > We really don’t need a “D” bit, as we can allocate a PW type to > indicate that this is a DetNet PW, plus the context of the label > can identify its use for a DetNet PW/flow. > > > Fine, however we have at least diverging opinions, that both say > that we should not use PWs > - first we have people that believe that we should use EVPN instead > - second there are people that say that we should define what is >   necessary for DetNet and then specify that independent of EVPN > and PWs > > We need a consensus on that before we can start the design according to > one or the other of those paradigms. > > > We DO need the first nibble to be zero. But beyond that, we are > free to use all 28 bits as a sequence number, if there’s no need > for either flags or PW-layer fragmentation, which would require > two bits. > > The key to determine the required number of bits in the sequence > number is to determine, for the maximum expected rate of a > DetNet flow, how long will it take to wrap around? > > > Isn't that only part of the truth? We are not concerned only by the > fact that the source might sue the same sequence number again, but > that a struggling packet might show up at a point in the network > where a wrap > around just happened. > > > For example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would reasonably equate to > 833K pps, assuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap around in > a little over one second with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with a > 27-bit sequence number would wrap around in about 1 second. > > All that said, a second is a very long holding time for flows > with constrained latency, so we could probably take two bits off > those numbers and still be OK (wrap around in 250 ms). > > So 25 bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 bits > gives us room for further BW growth in the future, approaching > 1Tbps. > > > I think that we need to design for Tbps (or worse), but that is another > thing we need consensus on before starting to specify. > > /Loa > > > Cheers, > Andy > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > -- Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu Senior MPLS Expert Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Sun Jan 21 01:43:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DC3D1241FC for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 01:43:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vicPR-iz1gA3 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 01:43:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf0-x236.google.com (mail-lf0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 749C61201F8 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 01:43:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id o89so7017675lfg.10 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 01:43:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=VgOUUs7KZzyfq0GjQEABlCkGrd6X9HoV1/MTWzP6V8w=; b=AzGbmSoLoFJTymeDJTE5JUfQ8lwEUopCWv/wpjfYcjHtC32LDSoj2hWAc5kDg3u3MH ixT6ZDrgpgTksL++CiMRhqksknwAR1h+OAfmXQqEQeCsA/lh/uCcTGB+ohhrxAYa+Ycw eQfAkAyOqUhPXXM4YbJpzN5wjQ3oxMuwmc6QlxmGlbV9viKUPvU+4zjwkQBWdETaLMZS AUA6BHXAOVBb5OIaGe+8gdf7PosgfveMHw+sfnx0pD1oMjeXVaEEO6rCtLUzjFxO4TR1 Tk0FZhz01c0Liza6uhYe2fxVZ3zUHjVJaG2W45QKLc4A7WZg4UFiTGydZH77qChkD33l jq2Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=VgOUUs7KZzyfq0GjQEABlCkGrd6X9HoV1/MTWzP6V8w=; b=mjxIMVw1uHHX4x+Dy1yqgsVp+2s/3P8+8gW+7HXGSw6Gk0QaWsrIr9UTFcul7ZdMtw pQrK20Q29iFZxqXLbaqDCJU0X3LtY5axOnPh6Dko6rw3qA0LAhLHudPu0QYY/e/vHLyX O6iIujhX3XXhJfZxX54IK8E8UI0pWUoJBO0X4TAori5bi/4Um1g8IN/OxPIKFFLuge7c q3kWlTgB2Q3YwI5r2LkRs6BUuNuwIqUCl0p9zpLukVdpkd+0nX8HTLe84OsPn51JFryY paqaKVmJ5/D+Bf05Y19ReEYMtXYREtU1Yon66uy3vd99aGXHFzOiVxLx8HYuz0XTwMaP dUyA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytebLUaa7u6h+jDm6qncR+Z9vzM6vNgdDVrqkO4hRvPDzl3bgdX9 Sosz/O6Pz1hM+tBLW0c834E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x224GfvvvfT3VBwWiUgr3q3JBK4uWjjBtiDLYCAAt62R5RiAOlr8dL/JZ4/J4NZA3wlW1SKseHw== X-Received: by 10.46.82.23 with SMTP id g23mr1703008ljb.67.1516527825466; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 01:43:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from jounis-imac.home ([83.150.126.201]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y80sm2192564lje.10.2018.01.21.01.43.43 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 21 Jan 2018 01:43:44 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Jouni In-Reply-To: <1113ebaf-1477-59e9-982b-d14c0dbb5c79@pi.nu> Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 11:43:42 +0200 Cc: "Andrew G. Malis" , DetNet WG , =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Varga_A?= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7A27B52F-B693-4C60-B963-E143BFFBFFC3@gmail.com> References: <7bf069e6-2727-6d55-7247-58b515f71424@pi.nu> <1113ebaf-1477-59e9-982b-d14c0dbb5c79@pi.nu> To: Loa Andersson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 09:43:50 -0000 Quick and dirty calculation with 1500 octet packet (+ ethernet overhead = of 42 octets) at 400Gb/s link a 25 bit SN is able to hold more than 1 = sec of traffic. With 256 octet packet 1 sec would need 28 bit SN. 1Tb/s with 512 octet packet (+ethernet overhead) for 1 sec would need 28 = bit SN. This is based on the calculation how many packets you are able = to inject within a given time constraint. I do not consider here yet = how you would find out a late packet based on the SN i.e., whether you = need to reserve half of the SN space for =E2=80=9Cin window=E2=80=9D = packets or some other amount like 10%. Anyway, it is still _early_ in = Sunday morning so tolerate errors.. To me 28 bits seems to be plenty.. and a single on-wire format is simple = (assuming the actual SN bits are defined by the CP or config). - Jouni > On 21 Jan 2018, at 08:28, Loa Andersson wrote: >=20 > Andy, all, >=20 > (I thought I sent a response to this, but it never did show up, so = re-sending. Apologize if there are duplicates). >=20 > So we all agree that we need the sequence number for elimination > purposes. >=20 > We still need to agree on the size and format of the sequence number >=20 > What will impact the calculation of the sequence number size are: >=20 > - the maximum sustained DetNet flow BW > - the minimum average packet size of a DetNet flow > - the maximum lifetime of an errant packet >=20 > My guesstimate is that we need to allow for a sustained BW of 1 Tbs, = that the average packet size is less that 1500 bytes and that the life > time of an errant packet is at least 500 ms. >=20 > But we obviously need better answers than that to be able to calculate = the sequence number size we med. >=20 > Any takers?? >=20 > /Loa >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 2018-01-20 02:36, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >> Loa, >> You=E2=80=99re right, we do need to think about the maximum lifetime = of an errant packet in the network as well, thanks for that. >> You=E2=80=99re also correct that we need to define what=E2=80=99s = optimal for DETNET, however we do have a charter constraint. To quote = Lou=E2=80=99s recent email, "We are not expected to come up with new = encapsulations, but rather how DetNet uses what exists today. =E2=80=9C. = So we can=E2=80=99t be TOO creative ... >> I=E2=80=99m really interested to hear what other people have to say = about the upper limit of flow BW that DetNet needs to support, and I = also made an assumption in my math that an average DetNet packet (at = least for a very large flow) would be 1500 bytes. Do we have consensus = on that as well? That also has implications for the sequence number = length. >> Cheers, >> Andy >> On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 11:29 AM, Loa Andersson > wrote: >> Andy, >> On 2018-01-19 20:25, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >> Loa, >> We really don=E2=80=99t need a =E2=80=9CD=E2=80=9D bit, as we = can allocate a PW type to >> indicate that this is a DetNet PW, plus the context of the = label >> can identify its use for a DetNet PW/flow. >> Fine, however we have at least diverging opinions, that both say >> that we should not use PWs >> - first we have people that believe that we should use EVPN = instead >> - second there are people that say that we should define what is >> necessary for DetNet and then specify that independent of EVPN >> and PWs >> We need a consensus on that before we can start the design = according to >> one or the other of those paradigms. >> We DO need the first nibble to be zero. But beyond that, we = are >> free to use all 28 bits as a sequence number, if there=E2=80=99s= no need >> for either flags or PW-layer fragmentation, which would = require >> two bits. >> The key to determine the required number of bits in the = sequence >> number is to determine, for the maximum expected rate of a >> DetNet flow, how long will it take to wrap around? >> Isn't that only part of the truth? We are not concerned only by = the >> fact that the source might sue the same sequence number again, but >> that a struggling packet might show up at a point in the network >> where a wrap >> around just happened. >> For example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would reasonably equate = to >> 833K pps, assuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap around = in >> a little over one second with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with a >> 27-bit sequence number would wrap around in about 1 second. >> All that said, a second is a very long holding time for flows >> with constrained latency, so we could probably take two bits = off >> those numbers and still be OK (wrap around in 250 ms). >> So 25 bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 bits >> gives us room for further BW growth in the future, approaching >> 1Tbps. >> I think that we need to design for Tbps (or worse), but that is = another >> thing we need consensus on before starting to specify. >> /Loa >> Cheers, >> Andy >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >=20 > --=20 >=20 >=20 > Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu > Senior MPLS Expert > Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Sun Jan 21 03:06:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60213126CB6 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 03:06:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AMs0M1SfeH9B for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 03:06:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf0-x22f.google.com (mail-lf0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CC0A124319 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 03:06:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id g72so7167763lfg.5 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 03:06:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=LRkCqYsW3FJU+8OgaIKBOf2we5PE/B4E1nXeVxFWvCI=; b=KGtqKEG/mX+zdJgika0nfum1BTVasR05K/ZyD3OUb37SfYBfabhdzUAk83r357Rayy L5hoMXDodFt7T9tdYWfs8G4RVfpWwTdIpzeAQutTfXZMhtH+GCmPyQrBQZVrEi/0VqCK DrSnIcuV0OXfD/zyfyOgY8FGkdEku76rUkal9PktsLCuz1galHRmE0BwiigzuSTxcWU3 x9YS6wUTppEjpL6QVcQ1gL1GCdz4sUjAnzoLln3TUgTrj6OTKTkSCE2dpxb+2iMiPAYs qVBcdjQ9lb7Kq7z0Q4+ul5rLGtDI5sVld5qzT0Z6Ab+fuv1fCHSMlP+71DeAYkoeTuPM o5xg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=LRkCqYsW3FJU+8OgaIKBOf2we5PE/B4E1nXeVxFWvCI=; b=YjFj5+F57DZXMLcuBYa2Gc5c2BzEj0Gadejb2J1oen9GNCQdVLjJYLYL55sldPC6mF cwJXy0VftYZx7s5GcunDdORizdYR88kLbhKphIWA0AikkS4y+1A05Ev4DuJFVuSDNgOD sYTMQ3C7E5KftE53KRcqjeGmXxkox9zLCZ483XAv9sgyaDUElwiqJUS1HzdSXcwBJ6md BaKmrn+/VXdUhe4OAtYZN6JWh/sLwjqzE5NuedizLSZz4/MvtCCLYuhmxKGKNQR6UGYW /MAifQ+qx+qwwZrQIQzoUo9lmjmvs2uvIb772A/kO7oqrCqMv3ZK6p7jXZRKBI48iMYI qaCw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytfoIcfkcyxNc+lPh0rzurLtW3/u0Rs1MoZUbp3SClsfQktbCccw obzzk7VHpWNGM87bB5yKkKt4xDHM X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x226PCYX1t+4vWYsNoHj6PrDD6j5OlYpzh0rXOlll0HJMbPh/ftY8fP8CRTGy/hg11rDcIgJ+pg== X-Received: by 10.25.25.208 with SMTP id 199mr1720647lfz.146.1516532785287; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 03:06:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from jounis-imac.home ([83.150.126.201]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m89sm2088608lje.66.2018.01.21.03.06.24 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 21 Jan 2018 03:06:24 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Jouni In-Reply-To: <0cb101d38fe6$ce414370$6ac3ca50$@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 13:06:22 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0cb101d38fe6$ce414370$6ac3ca50$@gmail.com> To: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] data plane draft repository X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 11:06:29 -0000 There=E2=80=99s been quite a few edits to the draft. See the current = snapshot: = https://github.com/jounikor/draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol/blob/master/draft-ietf-= detnet-dp-sol-01.xml - Jouni > On 18 Jan 2018, at 00:59, Jouni wrote: >=20 > Folks, >=20 > The work in progress data plane draft XML source file can be found at: > https://github.com/jounikor/draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol >=20 > - Jouni >=20 From nobody Sun Jan 21 12:29:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BB2F126C25 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 12:29:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c1Ho6xW1JuwN for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 12:29:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf0-x22b.google.com (mail-lf0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4734120726 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 12:29:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id h92so8128497lfi.7 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 12:29:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=iZqWWuckVzdE9pNIQvUpVcRfVAMPllFWDL19szE/C9o=; b=ghzjf7UJlIb31DL+hz4eT8vE7o/Q1qyjMx38s9sNw4Yaa+OC0uXw6RAcWwDPDY3cY2 +2TDYBQs6N+MZe3fLigEylebG6YEGuVyUydtHUmhBPvHoGQqIEGtEnB7pALypUUsYTOb DR+wgxZWNOL47BS5wv8v0d47D7UVTnPK2CvBXhRsL+7h7Cb/fOX6J4SJNPyZPctZe2eY Uubl9Da0IWKPJkMAxPCdc10v5S3M3GR/2EbRhlPaqDXpHUB4phkjrv5vK00Vvetjo8r3 0dM1NHaK4unaWLPkzHh+i2dhDAHfDMDIkVbKwSHy4GVbU4chqNnRCm09L3hAY2oI9Nz9 PJ3Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=iZqWWuckVzdE9pNIQvUpVcRfVAMPllFWDL19szE/C9o=; b=YGj7/gXf/9LrOr/hCmjoTugVitWUuyGiKHh5BFhUHwv1/2kZc5IjQQbXHSY06V5Krv zE6pqptb2ESw0ZnvKKCTWnN8XTuxjf3SYfd3v+ecbvDNCd9xif6GprNzUdLRcuOjHPN3 zWAOYxhXdp4rP//ehGrefljry7+tzUv41V0lMmQ3BmLQ9buh4FM8iur/+r1WC5OsLXbO duYjrDgS5PT1cPxMJVdS5QzfjV5HnAiLEjQ4R5sK+vT5wpnzXOY7xtQiIOaIEqFuz1M6 LVKdXnH4QkTl9imznPiiRRmMHZtQHcyK9Jp1GIKm1DPePST/QOJynwNOuv0tOL9pZ/qU Kzrw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytfn8RiFov6zxLl6NI2ADj7ZxhOMeuB291f/7qJdp0hUN4nbOyeD A3P1DvTHm93dULPNgDOO4+s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x226zi/HFIorIzsRXhviXFtmyef2aYd0sQOL98xPv7WJJKmbaPSY6OxZmZDjavXQnluA4uVNabg== X-Received: by 10.46.31.17 with SMTP id f17mr2514208ljf.103.1516566550058; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 12:29:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from jounis-imac.home ([83.150.126.201]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b29sm460507ljb.34.2018.01.21.12.29.08 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 21 Jan 2018 12:29:09 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Jouni In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 22:29:04 +0200 Cc: "Andrew G. Malis" , DetNet WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <9d8fab9f-b5dd-6df0-1463-1c0eb63e8cdc@gmail.com> To: =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Varga_A?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 20:29:28 -0000 Hi, These are fine (good explanation below btw) and all listed/analysed = already in the architecture document to some extent, except that there = is no specific naming convention for a DetNet flow with reordering.=20 I wonder if we really need to state which DetNet node with a DetNet = service layer functionality does the reordering? Wouldn=E2=80=99t that = be just something a control plane or configuration defines? - Jouni > On 19 Jan 2018, at 11:09, Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A = wrote: >=20 > Hi Andy, > =20 > Yes, good point. =46rom DN flow perspective we have to cope with = in-order delivery. However, > some detailed thoughts on the DN functions and their usage of S/N: > - DN1, Congestion protection it is practically about QoS functions, = which works on a per flow > level. It selects queues based on flow-ID. It does not consider S/N. > - DN2, Explicit routes is practically traffic engineering. It does not = care about S/N, just flow-ID > (which flow have to take which tunnel). > - DN3, Service protection is the per packet 1+n protection, where the = elimination function is=20 > based on S/N.=20 > =20 > This is why I wrote S/N is used only by the Service Protection = function. > =20 > But Your comment is fully valid and points for me to a possible = missing DN function. We should > consider to define an additional one: =E2=80=9CDN4 Frame ordering=E2=80=9D= . Such a function would use both the > flow-ID and the S/N. Its function is to ensure in order delivery if = that is required by the DetNet > application. Best located at the egress-PE. Details need further = discussion. (Note: if the application > has its own embedded seq.num in the flow it may not need in-order = delivery, etc.) > =20 > I think that is a good idea and makes the DN functions more modular. = Also during the Elimination > we can simple concentrate on duplicate detection and out-source = in-order delivery to DN4. > =20 > So, we could end up in four DN functions: > - DN1, Congestion protection > - DN2, Explicit routes > - DN3, Service protection > - DN4, Frame ordering > =20 > Cheers > Bala=E2=80=99zs > =20 > From: Andrew G. Malis [mailto:agmalis@gmail.com]=20 > Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 18. 22:49 > To: Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A > Cc: DetNet WG > Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) > =20 > Bal=C3=A1zs, > =20 > I agree with your conclusions regarding =E2=80=9CDetNet distance=E2=80=9D= . > =20 > However, one point I think I disagree with you is when the sequence = number is necessary - you said only by the =E2=80=9Cservice = protection=E2=80=9D function=E2=80=9D. However, as DetNet flows are = indeed flows, and and most (if not all) applications that will require = DetNet will most probably require in-order delivery, sequence numbers = are generally useful for reordering at the destination if packets get = out of order during delivery by the underlying network. > =20 > Cheers, > Andy > =20 > =20 > On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 2:41 PM, Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A = wrote: > Hi, > =20 > some comments regarding what is needed for a "networks that are under = a single administrative control", based on the existing WG drafts = (problem statement, use-cases, architecture, etc.). Let's try to keep it = simple and focus on what we need: > 1, Flow requirements: > - loss and/or delay bounds > 2, DetNet functions (defined so far): > - DN1, Congestion protection (i.e. reserving = resources, magic queuing, etc.) > - DN2, Explicit routes (i.e. traffic engineering) > - DN3, Service protection (against loss by network = failures) > Note: These three techniques can be applied independently, depending = on the Flow requirements and the network scenario. As an example, = congestion protection (DN1) alone is offered by IEEE 802.1 Audio Video = bridging. > =20 > 3, Flow specific information have to travel with the packet: > - Flow-ID (required by all DetNet functions) > - Sequence Number (required only by "Service = Protection" function) > =20 > So, regarding the questions here on the list: > - Do we need all nodes to be DN-aware in a network? > Not necessarily. If in a network scenario DetNet flows require only = for example basic DN1 function than You have a good chance to serve it = with existing devices. However in some cases all DN functions are needed = at each hop, so yes, all nodes have to be DN aware. > Conclusion: the more DN functions are needed in a network scenario to = serve DetNet flows, the more probably we need DN-aware nodes at each = hop. > =20 > - Do we need DetNet data-plane for IPv4, IPv6 and MPLS? > Yes, that would be nice to have for all of them. But I think it is a = better question which one has the smallest distance to be DetNet-ready? = (I mean which need the less new stuff to support DN?) The data-plane = alternative related draft focused on that and also the mailing threads = here. > Conclusion: I think we can conclude on a rank of "smallest = DetNet-distance": > 1, MPLS > 2, IPv6 > 3. IPv4 > Note: in my view this is also the probability list what networks = someone intends to use to forward DetNet flows =E2=80=A6 > =20 > Cheers > VBala'zs > =20 > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Grossman, = Ethan A. > Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 17. 19:51 > To: DetNet WG ; Deborah Brungard ; = Stewart Bryant > Cc: Tim Chown (Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk) > Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) > =20 > Thanks Stewart. Regarding: > =E2=80=9CYes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a = consensus of whether > a) We support v4 > b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions > c) We use a single common IP approach > d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS=E2=80=9D >=20 > Perhaps, given Tim Chown=E2=80=99s earlier comment: > =E2=80=9CIf you=E2=80=99re suggesting an IPv4-only solution, = you=E2=80=99re running up against = https://www.iab.org/2016/11/07/iab-statement-on-ipv6/.=E2=80=9D > =20 > We could get Deborah with her AD hat on to comment on this? > Ethan. > =20 > From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 10:39 AM > To: Grossman, Ethan A. ; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A = ; Andrew G. Malis > Cc: DetNet WG ; Mach Chen > Subject: Re: DP solution (Flow identification) > =20 > Hi Ethan, >=20 > =20 > On 17/01/2018 18:24, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > Thanks Stewart for the clarification. I interpret your statement =E2=80=9C= a decision not to support IPv4=E2=80=9D to mean =E2=80=9Ca decision not = to propose adding anything to the existing IPv4 standard=E2=80=9D. >=20 > To support IPv4 there are a number of methods that are possible, one = is to add something to v4 itself as is proposed for v6. Adding something = to the base protocol will be very difficult. >=20 > Another method, is to do what has been proposed by some for MPLS, that = is to encode the identity and type in the IP address. There is a = proposal to do this in SRv6. I am not a great fan of abusing the address = space for this in the way proposed by that work, but maybe we can do = something much simpler here and simply identify the DN instance by the = IP address with no other semantics. Much easier to do this for IPv6 with = the "infinite addresses" but we could get away with it in limited = private Ipv4 networks. Of course this does change the per-hop behaviour = of IP which may be a challenge to get the IETF to sign of on. >=20 > Another method is to use some method of carrying an MPLS label stack - = this was the first proposal. Now I said that I did not think anyone had = done that and I still believe that to be the case, but that does not = mean that it is not the least worst approach. There are alternates for = example IP/UDP/MPLS > which is the so called USR approach that a number of us advocate as an = alternative to SRv6. >=20 > If that isn=E2=80=99t correct, please let me know. As you may recall I = already started a thread awhile ago to discuss IPv4 vs IPv6, and based = on the responses it appeared to me at that time that there were some = kind of options, though not a =E2=80=9Cnative IPv4=E2=80=9D solution, = but it wasn=E2=80=99t clear to me (as a non-expert in the various = networking protocols mentioned) whether they would be viable in practice = or not. I will revive that thread and see if we can get any closer to = determining the importance of IPv4 to our target customers, and = hopefully some sense of whether the proposed non-native-IPv4 strategies = will hold water. >=20 > Yes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a consensus = of whether >=20 > a) We support v4 > b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions > c) We use a single common IP approach > d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS >=20 > - Stewart >=20 > Ethan. > =20 > From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 12:29 AM > To: Grossman, Ethan A. ; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A = ; Andrew G. Malis > Cc: DetNet WG ; Mach Chen > Subject: Re: DP solution (Flow identification) > =20 > =20 >=20 > =20 > On 16/01/2018 18:38, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > Hi Bala=E2=80=99zs, > Regarding IPv4, I also understood that we decided that we can=E2=80=99t = add new IPv4 fields. Pardon my ignorance here, but does that mean there = is no part of DetNet capability that can be run over IPv4? Or is there = some =E2=80=9Cworkaround=E2=80=9D to provide as I say even part of the = DetNet capability, given that it is an Engineered network? I just want = to clarify expectations here. >=20 > If you have a native IPv4 network to which you present IPv6 packets, = you either have to tunnel them across where the IPv6 is considered = opaque data, or you have to translate them to IPv4, but that requires = some common semantics to deal with extension headers which we don't = currently have. >=20 > So, as far as I can see, a decision not to support IPv4 means no DN = support across the IPv4 network. >=20 > Which takes us back to the question of how important is this and what = will it do to the take-up of the technology by its target customers? >=20 > - Stewart >=20 >=20 > Thanks, > Ethan. > =20 > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bal=C3=A1zs = Varga A > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 10:21 AM > To: Stewart Bryant ; Andrew G. Malis = > Cc: DetNet WG ; Mach Chen > Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) > =20 > I think the last mails are more about flow identification and not the = sequence number. > So, I have re-subjected my answer. > =20 > PSN layer vs. DN layer (MPLS): > - in current data plane text we have stated that DetNet PWs may use = dedicated LSPs (TE-tunnels). > That allow to identify DetNet flows in PSN layer without checking the = PW label. Such a solution of > course may challenge scalability. > - regarding prioritization: text allows both E-LSP and L-LSP concept, = what makes possible > to identify DetNet packets. However that is more for simple queuing = scenarios as it does not > identify individual flows. > =20 > PSN layer vs. DN layer (non-MPLS): > - IPv4: If I remember correctly it was discussed to be out-of-scope to = simplify the scenarios we focus on. > No-one wanted to define new IPv4 fields for flow-ID and Seq-Num in the = =E2=80=9Csunset of IPv4=E2=80=9D. > - IPv6: based on the src-IPv6 and the flow-label NP can detect DetNet = flows. Why would we need a new > IP protocol type? > =20 > Generic vs. DN aware data plane: > - I think we need both. We have use-cases specified for both. > =20 > DetNet traffic to be transported: > - two types are considered: > (1) Ethernet: IEEE TSN traffic encapsulated in Ethernet frames and=20 > (2) IP: IPv6 transported over any L2 (not always Ethernet, but most = cases Ethernet) > As noted above IPv4 is currently out-of-scope =E2=80=A6 > =20 > Cheers > Bala=E2=80=99zs > =20 > From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]=20 > Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 16. 17:38 > To: Andrew G. Malis > Cc: Mach Chen ; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A = ; DetNet WG > Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > =20 > =20 >=20 > Andy >=20 > On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Stewart, > =20 > Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be another PW type), = targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central controller, NMS, etc.) are = alternatives to RSVP and SR to provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW = label. >=20 > .. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this purpose in = VPNs >=20 >=20 > =20 > You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) case, we need a = way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could have a new IP protocol = type for DETNET, and a DETNET header directly follows the IP header. In = that case, the DETNET header would also need a next protocol identifier, = unless the next protocol is always another IP header. >=20 > Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP extension = header, although I am not a fan of those since (a) I am not confident = what a router will do one it does not understand, and (b) I am concerned = about the need to support IPv4 which I suspect will have a long tail in = enterprise deployment. >=20 > I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal support = through any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers need to look a the = UDP DP so checking if it is one they need to work on is just one compare = and conditional branch. >=20 >=20 > =20 > Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the identifier. >=20 > Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this is = sufficient. >=20 > - Stewart > =20 >=20 > =20 > Cheers, > Andy > =20 > =20 > On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant = wrote: > If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer = then we really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or = synthesize one through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, = but we could introduce the concept, for example by making this the = property of the IP address or some way of MPLSing IP. >=20 > However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our = expectation that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our = expectation that at lest in some networks the data plane is generic with = some DN nodes strategically placed? >=20 > I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers will = all be DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most networks we need = to design for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware. >=20 > - Stewart >=20 > =20 > On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote: > Hi Balazs, > =20 > #2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, = seems there is no compatibility issue. > =20 > In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to differentiate a = DetNet flow from a non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can = process the CW as expected. In TSN, it uses the priority to determine = whether a flow is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use = the same way (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself = implies the situation, but it seems that this only works when the DetNet = service label is the top label. =20 > =20 > Any other thoughts? > =20 > Best regards, > Mach > =20 > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bal=C3=A1zs = Varga A > Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM > To: DetNet WG > Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > =20 > Hi, >=20 > =20 >=20 > Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution = draft. >=20 > This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: >=20 > - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips = zero. >=20 > It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) >=20 > =20 >=20 > Possible problem resolutions: >=20 > #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: >=20 > 0 1 2 3 >=20 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 >=20 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >=20 > |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0 | 16 bit Sequence Number | >=20 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >=20 > D-bit: set to =E2=80=9C1=E2=80=9D means DetNet specific Seq. Number = used, >=20 > Bit5-15: reserved. >=20 > =20 >=20 > RFC4448 states that reserved bits =E2=80=9CMUST be ignored upon = receipt=E2=80=9D, so backward >=20 > compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use = longer seq.num. >=20 > formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385. >=20 > =20 >=20 > #2: Making =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D as a valid Seq.Num. >=20 > DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet >=20 > domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service = functions >=20 > (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. = No >=20 > other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify = its >=20 > own sequence number processing algorithm. So =E2=80=9C0=E2=80=9D can = be a valid number >=20 > and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with = RFC4385. >=20 > =20 >=20 > #3: Other =E2=80=A6 ?!? >=20 > =20 >=20 > Comments are welcome. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Bala'zs >=20 > =20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger > Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 10. 19:01 > To: DetNet WG > Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim >=20 > =20 >=20 > is available for download at: >=20 > = https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3De5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf20230= 1 >=20 > =20 >=20 > raw notes are available at >=20 > = http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Lou (and co-chairs) >=20 > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ >=20 > detnet mailing list >=20 > detnet@ietf.org >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >=20 > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >=20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >=20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Mon Jan 22 02:30:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 795F4127275 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 02:30:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lYsmqVzqS6qx for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 02:30:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x232.google.com (mail-wm0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72C0412711A for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 02:30:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x232.google.com with SMTP id f71so15293224wmf.0 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 02:30:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=6Qprspjtwf2fcN4PZw+cuYlOuUO6BQKII5+lVw4S1A0=; b=pbRDdYqkNnB5AhGwDk95iUKj4ZcdHiPL/tNncuHrthLHJnMoI/XBSTeJJOSE+KytY7 ZCCjd145YkKTUZtvlhdmUQuPX+0WJH4m4owXOm9ZT76Yc+PiGyfaDfeH0OfsH5N77+kZ rI3PjXhnpTI9Yqt05r6ImH/v+UN9E/RVTib5VxOAG4++ORlr5NBFYqKLBJ1qYd6HN0zq MB2xCt4ThH9Pyh4+2AL20xfO6i735q5qE1teL+hDFujDkIwuOZqTyXO/GfTzCOAPLH3q VQ+gam8I7rUuTsVL+T0kRoAEkAFvBwKrzYqjsM7OrNkG2kZe9XSLTVNEN04hW6ww/pAv sQ3Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=6Qprspjtwf2fcN4PZw+cuYlOuUO6BQKII5+lVw4S1A0=; b=q+i7s7Rw1jFhaZdxp4M49RWwOUAqEEQ3Qy5+kiYhFZukPYOCK0P4b+JpJ9FSBG6+H6 lYccJ0PTGTJJjiqHYRA34BUZ6OwWN4K/25TT7NQhmV0U7tpczGKkKQSCn7eIhD4rm36y vFhYGhNu9XIALXVdtyBRgZ0kmByvkxxfeQnIHSbBO+DrlAf9eruoeQC7gb/dLx3nJRk8 ZJtVGQqaRv8rPuaIutmn5dXYs69djLxvfWhxWkmnbfY89k8rjDf8Yy9xjMvzQua5eZA+ htP2lbmVOGMV6VKXdl85bctH0IOrT0VQZt74rLAkpzl6h2CxeY3M9GSYGWXaSaHdLe0X eBYw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytcD9ZbecGbikNOdTQfOShiumKTDyS6SJVFuRMVfRiYNjdyIu/Wt C47X13okdfme30izIxOEMVECFAmg X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x22681Sakkl6XOxgdWSDpcqVxcU4EYhe9VNkX3u9+X4+NDBHpCcHELnJlOJBsR42DZNiq0wgMJQ== X-Received: by 10.28.129.70 with SMTP id c67mr5262635wmd.160.1516617024585; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 02:30:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.126] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r6sm9519545wrg.89.2018.01.22.02.30.22 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Jan 2018 02:30:23 -0800 (PST) To: "Andrew G. Malis" , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= Cc: DetNet WG References: <9d8fab9f-b5dd-6df0-1463-1c0eb63e8cdc@gmail.com> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <5838dae4-408b-e26a-a2fb-18ba0ec21dd5@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 10:30:21 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------DB03472690B64768DD12CDFD" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 10:30:41 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------DB03472690B64768DD12CDFD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Andy, That is of course highly application specific. In order delivery is an invariant of Ethernet, but not something that the deployed Ethernet PWs assure. I wonder if we require to do this in the PW - we could do it in an application specific shim - or we could create two PWs, one with S/N and one without. So to go back to the "DN Distance". Whilst we need a "future proof" design, we need to be careful not to put anything in that current equipment designs would find hard unless that is critical to the first priority use cases. - Stewart On 18/01/2018 21:48, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Balázs, > > I agree with your conclusions regarding “DetNet distance”. > > However, one point I think I disagree with you is when the sequence > number is necessary - you said only by the “service protection” > function”. However, as DetNet flows are indeed flows, and and most (if > not all) applications that will require DetNet will most probably > require in-order delivery, sequence numbers are generally useful for > reordering at the destination if packets get out of order during > delivery by the underlying network. > > Cheers, > Andy > > > On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 2:41 PM, Balázs Varga A > > wrote: > > Hi, > > some comments regarding what is needed for a "networks that are > under a single administrative control", based on the existing WG > drafts (problem statement, use-cases, architecture, etc.). Let's > try to keep it simple and focus on what we need: > > 1, Flow requirements: > > - loss and/or delay bounds > > 2, DetNet functions (defined so far): > > - DN1, Congestion protection (i.e. reserving resources, magic > queuing, etc.) > > - DN2, Explicit routes (i.e. traffic engineering) > > - DN3, Service protection (against loss by network failures) > > Note: These three techniques can be applied independently, > depending on the Flow requirements and the network scenario. As an > example, congestion protection (DN1) alone is offered by IEEE > 802.1 Audio Video bridging. > > 3, Flow specific information have to travel with the packet: > > - Flow-ID (required by all DetNet functions) > > - Sequence Number (required only by "Service Protection" function) > > So, regarding the questions here on the list: > > - Do we need all nodes to be DN-aware in a network? > > Not necessarily. If in a network scenario DetNet flows require > only for example basic DN1 function than You have a good chance to > serve it with existing devices. However in some cases all DN > functions are needed at each hop, so yes, all nodes have to be DN > aware. > > Conclusion: the more DN functions are needed in a network scenario > to serve DetNet flows, the more probably we need DN-aware nodes at > each hop. > > - Do we need DetNet data-plane for IPv4, IPv6 and MPLS? > > Yes, that would be nice to have for all of them. But I think it is > a better question which one has the smallest distance to be > DetNet-ready? (I mean which need the less new stuff to support > DN?) The data-plane alternative related draft focused on that and > also the mailing threads here. > > Conclusion: I think we can conclude on a rank of "smallest > DetNet-distance": > > 1, MPLS > > 2, IPv6 > > 3. IPv4 > > Note: in my view this is also the probability list what networks > someone intends to use to forward DetNet flows … > > Cheers > > VBala'zs > > *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Grossman, Ethan A. > *Sent:* 2018. január 17. 19:51 > *To:* DetNet WG >; > Deborah Brungard >; Stewart > Bryant > > *Cc:* Tim Chown (Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk > ) > > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) > > Thanks Stewart. Regarding: > > “Yes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a > consensus of whether > a) We support v4 > b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions > c) We use a single common IP approach > d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS” > > Perhaps, given Tim Chown’s earlier comment: > > “If you’re suggesting an IPv4-only solution, you’re running up > against https://www.iab.org/2016/11/07/iab-statement-on-ipv6/ > .” > > We could get Deborah with her AD hat on to comment on this? > > Ethan. > > *From:*Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com > ] > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 17, 2018 10:39 AM > *To:* Grossman, Ethan A. >; Balázs Varga A > >; Andrew G. Malis > > > *Cc:* DetNet WG >; Mach > Chen > > *Subject:* Re: DP solution (Flow identification) > > Hi  Ethan, > > On 17/01/2018 18:24, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > Thanks Stewart for the clarification. I interpret your > statement “a decision not to support IPv4” to mean “a decision > not to propose adding anything to the existing IPv4 standard”. > > > To support IPv4 there are a number of methods that are possible, > one is to add something to v4 itself as is proposed for v6. Adding > something to the base protocol will be very difficult. > > Another method, is to do what has been proposed by some for MPLS, > that is to encode the identity and type in the IP address. There > is a proposal to do this in SRv6. I am not a great fan of abusing > the address space for this in the way proposed by that work, but > maybe we can do something much simpler here and simply identify > the DN instance by the IP address with no other semantics. Much > easier to do this for IPv6 with the "infinite addresses" but we > could get away with it in limited private Ipv4 networks. Of course > this does change the per-hop behaviour of IP which may be a > challenge to get the IETF to sign of on. > > Another method is to use some method of carrying an MPLS label > stack - this was the first proposal. Now I said that I did not > think anyone had done that and I still believe that to be the > case, but that does not mean that it is not the least worst > approach. There are alternates for example IP/UDP/MPLS > which is the so called USR approach that a number of us advocate > as an alternative to SRv6. > > If that isn’t correct, please let me know. As you may recall I > already started a thread awhile ago to discuss IPv4 vs IPv6, > and based on the responses it appeared to me at that time that > there were some kind of options, though not a “native IPv4” > solution, but it wasn’t clear to me (as a non-expert in the > various networking protocols mentioned) whether they would be > viable in practice or not. I will revive that thread and see > if we can get any closer to determining the importance of IPv4 > to our target customers, and hopefully some sense of whether > the proposed non-native-IPv4 strategies will hold water. > > > Yes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a > consensus of whether > > a) We support v4 > b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions > c) We use a single common IP approach > d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS > > - Stewart > > Ethan. > > *From:*Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com > ] > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 17, 2018 12:29 AM > *To:* Grossman, Ethan A. > ; Balázs Varga A > > ; Andrew G. Malis > > *Cc:* DetNet WG ; > Mach Chen > *Subject:* Re: DP solution (Flow identification) > > On 16/01/2018 18:38, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > Hi Bala’zs, > > Regarding IPv4, I also understood that we decided that we > can’t add new IPv4 fields. Pardon my ignorance here, but > does that mean there is no part of DetNet capability that > can be run over IPv4? Or is there some “workaround” to > provide as I say even part of the DetNet capability, given > that it is an Engineered network? I just want to clarify > expectations here. > > > If you have a native IPv4 network to which you present IPv6 > packets, you either have to tunnel them across where the IPv6 > is considered opaque data, or you have to translate them to > IPv4, but that requires some common semantics to deal with > extension headers which we don't currently have. > > So, as far as I can see, a decision not to support IPv4 means > no DN support across the IPv4 network. > > Which takes us back to the question of how important is this > and what will it do to the take-up of the technology by its > target customers? > > - Stewart > > > Thanks, > > Ethan. > > *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Balázs > Varga A > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 16, 2018 10:21 AM > *To:* Stewart Bryant > ; Andrew G. Malis > > *Cc:* DetNet WG > ; Mach Chen > > *Subject:* [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) > > I think the last mails are more about flow identification > and not the sequence number. > > So, I have re-subjected my answer. > > PSN layer vs. DN layer (MPLS): > > - in current data plane text we have stated that DetNet > PWs may use dedicated LSPs (TE-tunnels). > > That allow to identify DetNet flows in PSN layer without > checking the PW label. Such a solution of > > course may challenge scalability. > > - regarding prioritization: text allows both E-LSP and > L-LSP concept, what makes possible > > to identify DetNet packets. However that is more for > simple queuing scenarios as it does not > > identify individual flows. > > PSN layer vs. DN layer (non-MPLS): > > - IPv4: If I remember correctly it was discussed to be > out-of-scope to simplify the scenarios we focus on. > > No-one wanted to define new IPv4 fields for flow-ID and > Seq-Num in the “sunset of IPv4”. > > - IPv6: based on the src-IPv6 and the flow-label NP can > detect DetNet flows. Why would we need a new > > IP protocol type? > > Generic vs. DN aware data plane: > > - I think we need both. We have use-cases specified for both. > > DetNet traffic to be transported: > > - two types are considered: > > (1) Ethernet: IEEE TSN traffic encapsulated in Ethernet > frames and > > (2) IP: IPv6 transported over any L2 (not always Ethernet, > but most cases Ethernet) > > As noted above IPv4 is currently out-of-scope … > > Cheers > > Bala’zs > > *From:*Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com > ] > *Sent:* 2018. január 16. 17:38 > *To:* Andrew G. Malis > > *Cc:* Mach Chen >; Balázs Varga A > >; DetNet WG > > > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > > Andy > > On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > Stewart, > > Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be > another PW type), targeted LDP and provisioning (via a > central controller, NMS, etc.) are alternatives to > RSVP and SR to provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW > label. > > > .. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this > purpose in VPNs > > > You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) > case, we need a way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. > We could have a new IP protocol type for DETNET, and a > DETNET header directly follows the IP header. In that > case, the DETNET header would also need a next > protocol identifier, unless the next protocol is > always another IP header. > > > Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP > extension header, although I am not a fan of those since > (a) I am not confident what a router will do one it does > not understand, and (b) I am concerned about the need to > support IPv4 which I suspect will have a long tail in > enterprise deployment. > > I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has > universal support through any middle box. firewall etc, > and all routers need to look a the UDP DP so checking if > it is one they need to work on is just one compare and > conditional branch. > > > Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the > identifier. > > > Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this > is sufficient. > > - Stewart > > Cheers, > > Andy > > On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant > > wrote: > > If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather > than the DN layer then we really are forced to > create a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one > through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for > this, but we could introduce the concept, for > example by making this the property of the IP > address or some way of MPLSing IP. > > However there is a deeper question we need to > answer. Is our expectation that each hop in the > data plane DN aware, or is our expectation that at > lest in some networks the data plane is generic > with some DN nodes strategically placed? > > I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases > the routers will all be DN aware, but in order to > get deployment in most networks we need to design > for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware. > > - Stewart > > On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote: > > Hi Balazs, > > #2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is > dedicated for DetNet, seems there is no > compatibility issue. > > In addition, I think we need to define a way > on how to differentiate a DetNet flow from a > non-DetNet flow, then the network processor > can process the CW as expected.  In TSN, it > uses the priority to determine whether a flow > is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we > also use the same way (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the > DetNet service Label itself implies the > situation, but it seems that this only works > when the DetNet service label is the top label. > > Any other thoughts? > > Best regards, > > Mach > > *From:* detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org > ] *On Behalf > Of *Balázs Varga A > *Sent:* Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM > *To:* DetNet WG > > *Subject:* [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence > Numbering) > > Hi, > > Some thoughts to start discussion on open > points of the DP solution draft. > > This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. > > Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: > > - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW > definition states that S/N skips zero. > > It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) > > Possible problem resolutions: > > #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part > of the CW: > > 0 1 2                   3 > >       0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > >      |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0 |   16 bit > Sequence Number      | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > D-bit: set to “1” means DetNet specific Seq. > Number used, > > Bit5-15: reserved. > > RFC4448 states that reserved bits “MUST be > ignored upon receipt”, so backward > > compatibility is ensured. Such a solution > would allow also to use longer seq.num. > > formats (if needed). Such a format is also > inline with RFC4385. > > #2: Making “0” as a valid Seq.Num. > > DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded > special within the DetNet > > domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain > by DetNet Service functions > > (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes > and DetNet relay-nodes. No > > other nodes care about the value of S/N, > therefore DetNet can specify its > > own sequence number processing algorithm. So > “0” can be a valid number > > and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is > used. This is inline with RFC4385. > > #3: Other … ?!? > > Comments are welcome. > > Cheers > > Bala'zs > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org > ] On Behalf Of > Lou Berger > Sent: 2018. január 10. 19:01 > To: DetNet WG > > Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim > > is available for download at: > > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301 > > > raw notes are available at > > http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 > > > Please feel free to update the etherpad based > on the recording. > > Lou (and co-chairs) > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet --------------DB03472690B64768DD12CDFD Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Andy,

That is of course highly application specific.

In order delivery is an invariant of Ethernet, but not something that the deployed Ethernet PWs assure.

I wonder if we require to do this in the PW - we could do it in an application specific shim - or we could create two PWs, one with S/N and one without.

So to go back to the "DN Distance". Whilst we need a "future proof" design, we need to be careful not to put anything in that current equipment designs would find hard unless that is critical to the first priority use cases.

- Stewart

On 18/01/2018 21:48, Andrew G. Malis wrote:
Balázs,

I agree with your conclusions regarding “DetNet distance”.

However, one point I think I disagree with you is when the sequence number is necessary - you said only by the “service protection” function”. However, as DetNet flows are indeed flows, and and most (if not all) applications that will require DetNet will most probably require in-order delivery, sequence numbers are generally useful for reordering at the destination if packets get out of order during delivery by the underlying network.

Cheers,
Andy


On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 2:41 PM, Balázs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,

 

some comments regarding what is needed for a "networks that are under a single administrative control", based on the existing WG drafts (problem statement, use-cases, architecture, etc.). Let's try to keep it simple and focus on what we need:

1, Flow requirements:

                - loss and/or delay bounds

2, DetNet functions (defined so far):

                - DN1, Congestion protection (i.e. reserving resources, magic queuing, etc.)

                - DN2, Explicit routes (i.e. traffic engineering)

                - DN3, Service protection (against loss by network failures)

Note: These three techniques can be applied independently, depending on the Flow requirements and the network scenario. As an example, congestion protection (DN1) alone is offered by IEEE 802.1 Audio Video bridging.

 

3, Flow specific information have to travel with the packet:

                - Flow-ID (required by all DetNet functions)

                - Sequence Number (required only by "Service Protection" function)

 

So, regarding the questions here on the list:

- Do we need all nodes to be DN-aware in a network?

Not necessarily. If in a network scenario DetNet flows require only for example basic DN1 function than You have a good chance to serve it with existing devices. However in some cases all DN functions are needed at each hop, so yes, all nodes have to be DN aware.

Conclusion: the more DN functions are needed in a network scenario to serve DetNet flows, the more probably we need DN-aware nodes at each hop.

 

- Do we need DetNet data-plane for IPv4, IPv6 and MPLS?

Yes, that would be nice to have for all of them. But I think it is a better question which one has the smallest distance to be DetNet-ready? (I mean which need the less new stuff to support DN?) The data-plane alternative related draft focused on that and also the mailing threads here.

Conclusion: I think we can conclude on a rank of "smallest DetNet-distance":

1, MPLS

2, IPv6

3. IPv4

Note: in my view this is also the probability list what networks someone intends to use to forward DetNet flows …

 

Cheers

VBala'zs

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Grossman, Ethan A.
Sent: 2018. január 17. 19:51
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Deborah Brungard <db3546@att.com>; Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
Cc: Tim Chown (Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk) <Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification)

 

Thanks Stewart. Regarding:

“Yes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a consensus of whether
a) We support v4
b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions
c) We use a single common IP approach
d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS”

Perhaps, given Tim Chown’s earlier comment:

        “If you’re suggesting an IPv4-only solution, you’re running up against https://www.iab.org/2016/11/07/iab-statement-on-ipv6/.”

 

We could get Deborah with her AD hat on to comment on this?

Ethan.

 

From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 10:39 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; Balázs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: DP solution (Flow identification)

 

Hi  Ethan,

 

On 17/01/2018 18:24, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Thanks Stewart for the clarification. I interpret your statement “a decision not to support IPv4” to mean “a decision not to propose adding anything to the existing IPv4 standard”.


To support IPv4 there are a number of methods that are possible, one is to add something to v4 itself as is proposed for v6. Adding something to the base protocol will be very difficult.

Another method, is to do what has been proposed by some for MPLS, that is to encode the identity and type in the IP address. There is a proposal to do this in SRv6. I am not a great fan of abusing the address space for this in the way proposed by that work, but maybe we can do something much simpler here and simply identify the DN instance by the IP address with no other semantics. Much easier to do this for IPv6 with the "infinite addresses" but we could get away with it in limited private Ipv4 networks. Of course this does change the per-hop behaviour of IP which may be a challenge to get the IETF to sign of on.

Another method is to use some method of carrying an MPLS label stack - this was the first proposal. Now I said that I did not think anyone had done that and I still believe that to be the case, but that does not mean that it is not the least worst approach. There are alternates for example IP/UDP/MPLS
which is the so called USR approach that a number of us advocate as an alternative to SRv6.

If that isn’t correct, please let me know. As you may recall I already started a thread awhile ago to discuss IPv4 vs IPv6, and based on the responses it appeared to me at that time that there were some kind of options, though not a “native IPv4” solution, but it wasn’t clear to me (as a non-expert in the various networking protocols mentioned) whether they would be viable in practice or not. I will revive that thread and see if we can get any closer to determining the importance of IPv4 to our target customers, and hopefully some sense of whether the proposed non-native-IPv4 strategies will hold water.


Yes, we need to have the discussion on the list and reach a consensus of whether

a) We support v4
b) We support v4 and v6 by v4 and v6 specific protocol extensions
c) We use a single common IP approach
d) We use an approach that is common across IP and MPLS

- Stewart

Ethan.

 

From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 12:29 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; Balázs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: DP solution (Flow identification)

 

 

 

On 16/01/2018 18:38, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Hi Bala’zs,

Regarding IPv4, I also understood that we decided that we can’t add new IPv4 fields. Pardon my ignorance here, but does that mean there is no part of DetNet capability that can be run over IPv4? Or is there some “workaround” to provide as I say even part of the DetNet capability, given that it is an Engineered network? I just want to clarify expectations here.


If you have a native IPv4 network to which you present IPv6 packets, you either have to tunnel them across where the IPv6 is considered opaque data, or you have to translate them to IPv4, but that requires some common semantics to deal with extension headers which we don't currently have.

So, as far as I can see, a decision not to support IPv4 means no DN support across the IPv4 network.

Which takes us back to the question of how important is this and what will it do to the take-up of the technology by its target customers?

- Stewart


Thanks,

Ethan.

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Balázs Varga A
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 10:21 AM
To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification)

 

I think the last mails are more about flow identification and not the sequence number.

So, I have re-subjected my answer.

 

PSN layer vs. DN layer (MPLS):

- in current data plane text we have stated that DetNet PWs may use dedicated LSPs (TE-tunnels).

That allow to identify DetNet flows in PSN layer without checking the PW label. Such a solution of

course may challenge scalability.

- regarding prioritization: text allows both E-LSP and L-LSP concept, what makes possible

to identify DetNet packets. However that is more for simple queuing scenarios as it does not

identify individual flows.

 

PSN layer vs. DN layer (non-MPLS):

- IPv4: If I remember correctly it was discussed to be out-of-scope to simplify the scenarios we focus on.

No-one wanted to define new IPv4 fields for flow-ID and Seq-Num in the “sunset of IPv4”.

- IPv6: based on the src-IPv6 and the flow-label NP can detect DetNet flows. Why would we need a new

IP protocol type?

 

Generic vs. DN aware data plane:

- I think we need both. We have use-cases specified for both.

 

DetNet traffic to be transported:

- two types are considered:

(1) Ethernet: IEEE TSN traffic encapsulated in Ethernet frames and

(2) IP: IPv6 transported over any L2 (not always Ethernet, but most cases Ethernet)

As noted above IPv4 is currently out-of-scope …

 

Cheers

Bala’zs

 

From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: 2018. január 16. 17:38
To: Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Cc: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>; Balázs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

 

 

Andy

On 16/01/2018 15:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote:

Stewart,

 

Like with PWs (since DETNET for MPLS would just be another PW type), targeted LDP and provisioning (via a central controller, NMS, etc.) are alternatives to RSVP and SR to provisioning/allocating the DETNET PW label.


.. and I suppose strictly BGP which is also used for this purpose in VPNs


 

You and Mach are both right that in the IP (non-MPLS) case, we need a way for the NP to detect DETNET flows. We could have a new IP protocol type for DETNET, and a DETNET header directly follows the IP header. In that case, the DETNET header would also need a next protocol identifier, unless the next protocol is always another IP header.


Last I saw, the thinking was that there would be an IP extension header, although I am not a fan of those since (a) I am not confident what a router will do one it does not understand, and (b) I am concerned about the need to support IPv4 which I suspect will have a long tail in enterprise deployment.

I prefer a UDP type for this purpose since it has universal support through any middle box. firewall etc, and all routers need to look a the UDP DP so checking if it is one they need to work on is just one compare and conditional branch.


 

Of course, for MPLS, the DETNET PW label is the identifier.


Only at the PW layer. Note my question about whether this is sufficient.

- Stewart
 

 

Cheers,

Andy

 

 

On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:

If we need to discriminate at the PSN layer rather than the DN layer then we really are forced to create a new FEC type for MPLS, or synthesize one through RSVP or SR. IP has no native support for this, but we could introduce the concept, for example by making this the property of the IP address or some way of MPLSing IP.

However there is a deeper question we need to answer. Is our expectation that each hop in the data plane DN aware, or is our expectation that at lest in some networks the data plane is generic with some DN nodes strategically placed?

I can see than in some greenfield specialist cases the routers will all be DN aware, but in order to get deployment in most networks we need to design for the case where only strategic nodes are DN aware.

- Stewart

 

On 16/01/2018 01:14, Mach Chen wrote:

Hi Balazs,

 

#2 is a more nature solution, the DetNet CW is dedicated for DetNet, seems there is no compatibility issue.

 

In addition, I think we need to define a way on how to differentiate a DetNet flow from a non-DetNet flow, then the network processor can process the CW as expected.  In TSN, it uses the priority to determine whether a flow is TSN or non-TSN flow. For DetNet, should we also use the same way (e.g., TC, DSCP)? Or the DetNet service Label itself implies the situation, but it seems that this only works when the DetNet service label is the top label.  

 

Any other thoughts?

 

Best regards,

Mach

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Balázs Varga A
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 9:06 PM
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

 

Hi,

 

Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP solution draft.

This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering.

 

Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word:

- S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N skips zero.

It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448)

 

Possible problem resolutions:

#1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW:

      0                   1                   2                   3

      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

     |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0  |   16 bit Sequence Number      |

     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

D-bit: set to “1” means DetNet specific Seq. Number used,

Bit5-15: reserved.

 

RFC4448 states that reserved bits “MUST be ignored upon receipt”, so backward

compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to use longer seq.num.

formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385.

 

#2: Making “0” as a valid Seq.Num.

DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the DetNet

domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service functions

(i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet relay-nodes. No

other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can specify its

own sequence number processing algorithm. So “0” can be a valid number

and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline with RFC4385.

 

#3: Other … ?!?

 

Comments are welcome.

 

Cheers

Bala'zs

 

-----Original Message-----
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger
Sent: 2018. január 10. 19:01
To: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim

 

is available for download at:

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301

 

raw notes are available at

http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01

 

Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording.

 

Lou (and co-chairs)

 

_______________________________________________

detnet mailing list

detnet@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 


_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 

 

 

 


_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet




_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

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On 19/01/2018 09:09, Balázs Varga A wrote:

Also during the Elimination

we can simple concentrate on duplicate detection and out-source in-order delivery to DN4.


In the middle of the network it may be sufficient to do approximate duplication detection. That is to say delete a packet if it has the same s/n as its predecessor (may be with a very tiny window) and let the egress do anything more complex.

- Stewart
--------------4C2759DAF2E5A1B860694D28-- From nobody Mon Jan 22 03:01:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A6B2124234 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 03:01:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oO2AQwnPW5hv for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 03:01:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr0-x235.google.com (mail-wr0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C217A1201F8 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 03:01:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr0-x235.google.com with SMTP id t16so8133314wrc.10 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 03:01:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=AyjM7bTIEXht3PVkJtcTjMU1laxnw864xLyFbWQeY4Y=; b=YAbGkqc4MjrgBsm8GCk9DHxJ0DblXSXrqVh7KEz3rHAt1gkXMo9La8RF5tM/KjOvlY nyO29aZ6Z+HeHkgTW/gGyuteVC/RwTR+PB0mecYbg9rrNz221lINpRvaWuCuSvj4MzfC aWsYz5c3UWs6byQJheh/3BhFf4Wpf45Drv88pNauuxHLC7fE7YWLIjfUiclCZ7uzrkqL 7P1dTiVe0hSV2cnpbFwWclPYjWps2HWgBwnGShLCYTDYY/kzRMuM4Fu3Mrs4ebx1h5PC PYCYzpDBfzDMdCkN2NlnpjJqzayRNQrS3CnVvPSHi3KmXcdhZbtYmrmeatZucJDxWhJo YINQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=AyjM7bTIEXht3PVkJtcTjMU1laxnw864xLyFbWQeY4Y=; b=fjSlB3W+DliuSFc0iwRzjAqXJLA7rRJZeasey5NRmNSOUcv6xidJodoH51Dv7qp1WZ iXYjPJUdcuXjecubdLikET4w2iqUwSWHGniICX64Vd6BvVMtpCVlG1r+JbA5tO468Hk9 ZwNwneB5RF3/lACgwwhdMJnk7YNsXrJe1Q8bv+RuOHLbRZ+U8svMu3OaTtMmXIzd5oCu EeVemQF8sYqffJiYIFjhQSTAeg3HDunR4laniOsTfw48JuyT7opdWxSB/Vq8cYiEEgOV m9iU1QYFhjc3OM0OnteLP42VGyFQljZgPQi3M2H29Dc2OX4jl3T8t8OUmE4wVzBsbFuF IhzA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytcnAcdnNCthkWWnmy8d/sTMFUqCGRtu0ElVLjQw4BKRHtYbzaMb rqrxkZ+UOSRhsu5v0KjxHBs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x225VBQsRVIrVzczQ00RLc7AqEAeUYAchtNHUjQwychDIBki0tZ/qGrvOrwX+jl2aEuYT67a/Rw== X-Received: by 10.223.185.92 with SMTP id b28mr5888130wrg.196.1516618876062; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 03:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.126] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y204sm4342134wmg.44.2018.01.22.03.01.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Jan 2018 03:01:15 -0800 (PST) To: Loa Andersson , "Andrew G. Malis" Cc: DetNet WG , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= References: <7bf069e6-2727-6d55-7247-58b515f71424@pi.nu> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:01:14 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:01:21 -0000 We can of course do the s/n triage in two phases. Approximate in the middle of the middle of the n/w and exact at the T-PE. - Stewart On 19/01/2018 16:29, Loa Andersson wrote: > Andy, > > > On 2018-01-19 20:25, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >> Loa, >> >> We really don’t need a “D” bit, as we can allocate a PW type to >> indicate that this is a DetNet PW, plus the context of the label can >> identify its use for a DetNet PW/flow. > > Fine, however we have at least diverging opinions, that both say that > we should not use PWs > - first we have people that believe that we should use EVPN instead > - second there are people that say that we should define what is >   necessary for DetNet and then specify that independent of EVPN and PWs > > We need a consensus on that before we can start the design according to > one or the other of those paradigms. >> >> We DO need the first nibble to be zero. But beyond that, we are free >> to use all 28 bits as a sequence number, if there’s no need for >> either flags or PW-layer fragmentation, which would require two bits. >> >> The key to determine the required number of bits in the sequence >> number is to determine, for the maximum expected rate of a DetNet >> flow, how long will it take to wrap around? > > Isn't that only part of the truth? We are not concerned only by the > fact that the source might sue the same sequence number again, but > that a struggling packet might show up at a point in the network where > a wrap > around just happened. >> >> For example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would reasonably equate to 833K >> pps, assuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap around in a little >> over one second with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with a 27-bit sequence >> number would wrap around in about 1 second. >> >> All that said, a second is a very long holding time for flows with >> constrained latency, so we could probably take two bits off those >> numbers and still be OK (wrap around in 250 ms). >> >> So 25 bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 bits gives >> us room for further BW growth in the future, approaching 1Tbps. > > I think that we need to design for Tbps (or worse), but that is another > thing we need consensus on before starting to specify. > > /Loa >> >> Cheers, >> Andy >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Loa Andersson > > wrote: >> >>     Folks, >> >>     Thanks for the discussion on sequenced number, where they are >> used and >>     what size they need to be. >> >>     There seems to a few ideas floating around. >> >>     This mail have #1 has a CW of 32 bits and a sequence number 16 bits. >> >>     #2 has a CW of 32 bits (?) and a sequence number of 27 bits if >> the D-bit >>     is thare (?), right? >> >>     The draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol has a CW of 32 bits and a sequence >>     number of 28 bits. >> >>     Other ideas I've heard in discussion is to make the sequence number >>     configurable. >> >>     Questions: >> >>     It has been said that that if anyone can give a use case where we >> need a >>     sequence number bigger than 28 bits, we'll have to accommodate >> this. Is >>     the jury still out on this, or can we say that 28 bits is >> enough?? Would >>     27 bit be enough? 16 bits?? Or might we even need a two byte CW? >> >>     There is not much idea to start drawing figures of the CW unless >> we have >>     an answer to that question. >> >>     Honestly I don't have to much idea on ho to go about to get that >> answer. >>     Any ideas? I think that the dt had some math on this in an early >> stage. >>     Anyone that have that available? >> >>     On the D-bit. Is it enough to have the D-bit set to determine if >> it is >>     a DetNet flow? What if the D-bit is not set? >> >>     /Loa >> >> >> >> >>     On 2018-01-15 21:05, Balázs Varga A wrote: >> >>         Hi, >> >>         Some thoughts to start discussion on open points of the DP >>         solution draft. >> >>         This mail(-thread) is on sequence numbering. >> >>         Problem in case of MPLS and DetNet Control Word: >> >>         - S/N skips zero problem: Ethernet PW definition states that S/N >>         skips zero. >> >>         It uses zero to mean no S/N in use. (rfc4448) >> >>         Possible problem resolutions: >> >>         #1: Using a "flag" in the reserved bits part of the CW: >> >>                 0                   1 2                   3 >> >>                 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >>         8 9 0 1 >> >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >> >>                |0 0 0 0|D|reserved - set to 0  |   16 bit Sequence >>         Number      | >> >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >> >>         D-bit: set to “1” means DetNet specific Seq. Number used, >> >>         Bit5-15: reserved. >> >>         RFC4448 states that reserved bits “MUST be ignored upon >>         receipt”, so backward >> >>         compatibility is ensured. Such a solution would allow also to >>         use longer seq.num. >> >>         formats (if needed). Such a format is also inline with RFC4385. >> >>         #2: Making “0” as a valid Seq.Num. >> >>         DetNet flows are recognized and forwarded special within the >> DetNet >> >>         domain. S/N is used within the DetNet domain by DetNet Service >>         functions >> >>         (i.e. PREF). S/N used only on DetNet end-nodes and DetNet >>         relay-nodes. No >> >>         other nodes care about the value of S/N, therefore DetNet can >>         specify its >> >>         own sequence number processing algorithm. So “0” can be a valid >>         number >> >>         and not the indication that no Seq.Num. is used. This is inline >>         with RFC4385. >> >>         #3: Other … ?!? >> >>         Comments are welcome. >> >>         Cheers >> >>         Bala'zs >> >>         -----Original Message----- >>         From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org >>         ] On Behalf Of Lou Berger >>         Sent: 2018. január 10. 19:01 >>         To: DetNet WG > >>         Subject: [Detnet] recording for today's interim >> >>         is available for download at: >> >> https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=e5116bc7db254c24a7bb3217bf202301 >> >> >>         raw notes are available at >> >> http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-01 >> >> >>         Please feel free to update the etherpad based on the recording. >> >>         Lou (and co-chairs) >> >>         _______________________________________________ >> >>         detnet mailing list >> >>         detnet@ietf.org >         > >> >>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>         >> >> >> >>         _______________________________________________ >>         detnet mailing list >>         detnet@ietf.org >>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>         >> >> >>     -- >> >>     Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu >> >>     Senior MPLS Expert >>     Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64 >>     >> >> >>     _______________________________________________ >>     detnet mailing list >>     detnet@ietf.org >>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>     >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> > From nobody Mon Jan 22 05:12:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B72D41270AC for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 05:12:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eT_9q1Ke05vG for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 05:12:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4422E126C2F for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 05:12:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (unknown [119.94.167.186]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 14D0B1801569; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 14:12:20 +0100 (CET) To: Stewart Bryant , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= , "Andrew G. Malis" Cc: DetNet WG References: <9d8fab9f-b5dd-6df0-1463-1c0eb63e8cdc@gmail.com> <0d8009f1-ca85-6a4e-aea1-795421a9829b@gmail.com> From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: <08d88b55-c78e-a1c8-5f3c-a46d2160f5f9@pi.nu> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 21:12:11 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0d8009f1-ca85-6a4e-aea1-795421a9829b@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 13:12:36 -0000 Stewart, On 2018-01-22 18:42, Stewart Bryant wrote: > > > On 19/01/2018 09:09, Balázs Varga A wrote: >> >> Also during the Elimination >> >> we can simple concentrate on duplicate detection and out-source >> in-order delivery to DN4. >> > > In the middle of the network it may be sufficient to do approximate > duplication detection. That is to say delete a packet if it has the same > s/n as its predecessor (may be with a very tiny window) and let the > egress do anything more complex. This has been tried before, but if I remember correctly. there turned out to be very few true P nodes. /Loa > > - Stewart > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > -- Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu Senior MPLS Expert Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Mon Jan 22 06:16:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E537C126CF9 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 06:16:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tdBLA9w201dk for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 06:16:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.23.142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8036A1252BA for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 06:16:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from CMOut01 (unknown [10.0.90.82]) by gproxy4.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC90F175B72 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:16:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by CMOut01 with id 1SGX1x01H2SSUrH01SGaZw; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:16:35 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=Rf/gMxlv c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10 a=RgaUWeydRksA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=79_ky1nyVldZO64Pln8A:9 a=RSS4fY-0Fwtheee_:21 a=ziRr9t9jEbJNdG_4:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=dognii86VrYA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=ebSVJxeKiM8UvsTkBocA:9 a=xgAi27rEj9ZJ3TC7:21 a=dznSl_HZ0QtvEUaR:21 a=nL1iowIcoQJDpN5D:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From: References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID :Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To: Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe :List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=RlvcC0ikBVWlp6owF41n3GkJLGwu0+wEMlFKNqrawsU=; b=A4iR9MBNQVgLdgmUju1fMkP87U 12YuKk0ShX3nYDM8RcnjfiijmAkndCZVuRcpdiTdnA55VVNyRdv6KturGtYx2erdOLRLIjO1X6a5Z xKs/e/fpJeiYt4zoQx+nRg2r0; Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:34948 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89_1) (envelope-from ) id 1edctj-002RY9-Jg; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:16:31 -0700 To: Jouni , Loa Andersson Cc: DetNet WG , "Andrew G. Malis" , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= References: <7bf069e6-2727-6d55-7247-58b515f71424@pi.nu> <1113ebaf-1477-59e9-982b-d14c0dbb5c79@pi.nu> <7A27B52F-B693-4C60-B963-E143BFFBFFC3@gmail.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <2ddcd1a6-0f42-4f73-7e0b-2bbb778d7181@labn.net> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 09:16:30 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7A27B52F-B693-4C60-B963-E143BFFBFFC3@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------5BDDC2F8913421546774868B" Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1edctj-002RY9-Jg X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.86.101]:34948 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 3 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 14:16:46 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5BDDC2F8913421546774868B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jouni,     I may be off but isn't sequence number independent per flow? So it's not the max link speed that's critical, but rather the max flow size, right? Certainly link speed provides an upper bound on a single flow, and there are certainly some use cases where a single flow will consume even the biggest link, but my experience is that such flows *always* use large packets.  In any case, I (personally, no hat) don't see this as the common case nor *necessarily* the required *initial* detnet solution. Also, I ran sum numbers for bits needed for 1sec at different frame sizes.  25 bits looks sufficient for almost all flows, and is only insufficient for 4 smaller frame sizes at 400G and 1T. So in either case (flows or links)  28 bits  more than sufficient. Lou Hopefully this looks okay... bits needed 64 BPkt 128 BPkt 256 BPkt 512 BPkt 1514 BPkt 4096 BPkt 9216 BPkt 10M 14 13 12 11 10 8 7 1G 21 20 19 18 16 15 14 100G 27 26 25 24 23 22 20 400G 29 28 27 26 25 24 22 1T 30 30 29 28 26 25 24 On 1/21/2018 4:43 AM, Jouni wrote: > Quick and dirty calculation with 1500 octet packet (+ ethernet overhead of 42 octets) at 400Gb/s link a 25 bit SN is able to hold more than 1 sec of traffic. With 256 octet packet 1 sec would need 28 bit SN. > 1Tb/s with 512 octet packet (+ethernet overhead) for 1 sec would need 28 bit SN. This is based on the calculation how many packets you are able to inject within a given time constraint. I do not consider here yet how you would find out a late packet based on the SN i.e., whether you need to reserve half of the SN space for “in window” packets or some other amount like 10%. Anyway, it is still _early_ in Sunday morning so tolerate errors.. > > To me 28 bits seems to be plenty.. and a single on-wire format is simple (assuming the actual SN bits are defined by the CP or config). > > - Jouni > > >> On 21 Jan 2018, at 08:28, Loa Andersson wrote: >> >> Andy, all, >> >> (I thought I sent a response to this, but it never did show up, so re-sending. Apologize if there are duplicates). >> >> So we all agree that we need the sequence number for elimination >> purposes. >> >> We still need to agree on the size and format of the sequence number >> >> What will impact the calculation of the sequence number size are: >> >> - the maximum sustained DetNet flow BW >> - the minimum average packet size of a DetNet flow >> - the maximum lifetime of an errant packet >> >> My guesstimate is that we need to allow for a sustained BW of 1 Tbs, that the average packet size is less that 1500 bytes and that the life >> time of an errant packet is at least 500 ms. >> >> But we obviously need better answers than that to be able to calculate the sequence number size we med. >> >> Any takers?? >> >> /Loa >> >> >> >> On 2018-01-20 02:36, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >>> Loa, >>> You’re right, we do need to think about the maximum lifetime of an errant packet in the network as well, thanks for that. >>> You’re also correct that we need to define what’s optimal for DETNET, however we do have a charter constraint. To quote Lou’s recent email, "We are not expected to come up with new encapsulations, but rather how DetNet uses what exists today. “. So we can’t be TOO creative ... >>> I’m really interested to hear what other people have to say about the upper limit of flow BW that DetNet needs to support, and I also made an assumption in my math that an average DetNet packet (at least for a very large flow) would be 1500 bytes. Do we have consensus on that as well? That also has implications for the sequence number length. >>> Cheers, >>> Andy >>> On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 11:29 AM, Loa Andersson > wrote: >>> Andy, >>> On 2018-01-19 20:25, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >>> Loa, >>> We really don’t need a “D” bit, as we can allocate a PW type to >>> indicate that this is a DetNet PW, plus the context of the label >>> can identify its use for a DetNet PW/flow. >>> Fine, however we have at least diverging opinions, that both say >>> that we should not use PWs >>> - first we have people that believe that we should use EVPN instead >>> - second there are people that say that we should define what is >>> necessary for DetNet and then specify that independent of EVPN >>> and PWs >>> We need a consensus on that before we can start the design according to >>> one or the other of those paradigms. >>> We DO need the first nibble to be zero. But beyond that, we are >>> free to use all 28 bits as a sequence number, if there’s no need >>> for either flags or PW-layer fragmentation, which would require >>> two bits. >>> The key to determine the required number of bits in the sequence >>> number is to determine, for the maximum expected rate of a >>> DetNet flow, how long will it take to wrap around? >>> Isn't that only part of the truth? We are not concerned only by the >>> fact that the source might sue the same sequence number again, but >>> that a struggling packet might show up at a point in the network >>> where a wrap >>> around just happened. >>> For example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would reasonably equate to >>> 833K pps, assuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap around in >>> a little over one second with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with a >>> 27-bit sequence number would wrap around in about 1 second. >>> All that said, a second is a very long holding time for flows >>> with constrained latency, so we could probably take two bits off >>> those numbers and still be OK (wrap around in 250 ms). >>> So 25 bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 bits >>> gives us room for further BW growth in the future, approaching >>> 1Tbps. >>> I think that we need to design for Tbps (or worse), but that is another >>> thing we need consensus on before starting to specify. >>> /Loa >>> Cheers, >>> Andy >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> -- >> >> >> Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu >> Senior MPLS Expert >> Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet --------------5BDDC2F8913421546774868B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Jouni,

    I may be off but isn't sequence number independent per flow?  So it's not the max link speed that's critical, but rather the max flow size, right? 

Certainly link speed provides an upper bound on a single flow, and there are certainly some use cases where a single flow will consume even the biggest link, but my experience is that such flows *always* use large packets.  In any case, I (personally, no hat) don't see this as the common case nor *necessarily* the required *initial* detnet solution.

Also, I ran sum numbers for bits needed for 1sec at different frame sizes.  25 bits looks sufficient for almost all flows, and is only insufficient for 4 smaller frame sizes at 400G and 1T. So in either case (flows or links)  28 bits  more than sufficient.

Lou

Hopefully this looks okay...

bits needed  64 BPkt   128 BPkt   256 BPkt   512 BPkt   1514 BPkt   4096 BPkt   9216 BPkt 
10M 14 13 12 11 10 8 7
1G 21 20 19 18 16 15 14
100G 27 26 25 24 23 22 20
400G 29 28 27 26 25 24 22
1T 30 30 29 28 26 25 24

On 1/21/2018 4:43 AM, Jouni wrote:
Quick and dirty calculation with 1500 octet packet (+ ethernet overhead of 42 octets) at 400Gb/s link a 25 bit SN is able to hold more than 1 sec of traffic. With 256 octet packet 1 sec would need 28 bit SN.
1Tb/s with 512 octet packet (+ethernet overhead) for 1 sec would need 28 bit SN. This is based on the calculation how many packets you are able to inject within a given time constraint.  I do not consider here yet how you would find out a late packet based on the SN i.e., whether you need to reserve half of the SN space for “in window” packets or some other amount like 10%. Anyway, it is still _early_ in Sunday morning so tolerate errors..

To me 28 bits seems to be plenty.. and a single on-wire format is simple (assuming the actual SN bits are defined by the CP or config).

- Jouni



On 21 Jan 2018, at 08:28, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu> wrote:

Andy, all,

(I thought I sent a response to this, but it never did show up, so re-sending. Apologize if there are duplicates).

So we all agree that we need the sequence number for elimination
purposes.

We still need to agree on the size and format of the sequence number

What will impact the calculation of the sequence number size are:

- the maximum sustained DetNet flow BW
- the minimum average packet size of a DetNet flow
- the maximum lifetime of an errant packet

My guesstimate is that we need to allow for a sustained BW of 1 Tbs, that the average packet size is less that 1500 bytes and that the life
time of an errant packet is at least 500 ms.

But we obviously need better answers than that to be able to calculate the sequence number size we med.

Any takers??

/Loa



On 2018-01-20 02:36, Andrew G. Malis wrote:

Loa,
You’re right, we do need to think about the maximum lifetime of an errant packet in the network as well, thanks for that.
You’re also correct that we need to define what’s optimal for DETNET, however we do have a charter constraint. To quote Lou’s recent email, "We are not expected to come up with new encapsulations, but rather how DetNet uses what exists today. “. So we can’t be TOO creative ...
I’m really interested to hear what other people have to say about the upper limit of flow BW that DetNet needs to support, and I also made an assumption in my math that an average DetNet packet (at least for a very large flow) would be 1500 bytes. Do we have consensus on that as well? That also has implications for the sequence number length.
Cheers,
Andy
On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 11:29 AM, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu>> wrote:
   Andy,
   On 2018-01-19 20:25, Andrew G. Malis wrote:
       Loa,
       We really don’t need a “D” bit, as we can allocate a PW type to
       indicate that this is a DetNet PW, plus the context of the label
       can identify its use for a DetNet PW/flow.
   Fine, however we have at least diverging opinions, that both say
   that we should not use PWs
   - first we have people that believe that we should use EVPN instead
   - second there are people that say that we should define what is
      necessary for DetNet and then specify that independent of EVPN
   and PWs
   We need a consensus on that before we can start the design according to
   one or the other of those paradigms.
       We DO need the first nibble to be zero. But beyond that, we are
       free to use all 28 bits as a sequence number, if there’s no need
       for either flags or PW-layer fragmentation, which would require
       two bits.
       The key to determine the required number of bits in the sequence
       number is to determine, for the maximum expected rate of a
       DetNet flow, how long will it take to wrap around?
   Isn't that only part of the truth? We are not concerned only by the
   fact that the source might sue the same sequence number again, but
   that a struggling packet might show up at a point in the network
   where a wrap
   around just happened.
       For example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would reasonably equate to
       833K pps, assuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap around in
       a little over one second with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with a
       27-bit sequence number would wrap around in about 1 second.
       All that said, a second is a very long holding time for flows
       with constrained latency, so we could probably take two bits off
       those numbers and still be OK (wrap around in 250 ms).
       So 25 bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 bits
       gives us room for further BW growth in the future, approaching
       1Tbps.
   I think that we need to design for Tbps (or worse), but that is another
   thing we need consensus on before starting to specify.
   /Loa
       Cheers,
       Andy
_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

-- 


Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS Expert
Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

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Malis" CC: DetNet WG Thread-Topic: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) Thread-Index: AQHTj8BvfcySEIafK0yWjOrWoRLqD6N4ZUyAgAADjoCAAZ4ZMIAAJdUAgACT93CABPsHgIAAKfKAgAATzjA= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 14:25:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9d8fab9f-b5dd-6df0-1463-1c0eb63e8cdc@gmail.com> <0d8009f1-ca85-6a4e-aea1-795421a9829b@gmail.com> <08d88b55-c78e-a1c8-5f3c-a46d2160f5f9@pi.nu> In-Reply-To: <08d88b55-c78e-a1c8-5f3c-a46d2160f5f9@pi.nu> Accept-Language: hu-HU, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [94.21.126.141] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; VI1PR07MB1037; 7:8dYhlOdC55+AqHhUOW6JAwA7sltC///sjuWf95CmAP/QI3rmmjdu8Uoy/EDCQK2JOn/QjF2nl0JZs9X/70hO/DdEKdMqdHRrgNUhJpf8eswWbhfrv3C42F6ZtBRjMJVcfjE/SvoZVPEVCzN9ymgCEOG9Q6qriNZQsnhBNGfNLCQUoBWJdXQArOCVOIWBCIEF754fROwAHFLq+1FLj222/2Ur83jwCGXZ+5fKp/HC1/eKFxPjATXgI/sPMgtuH2qJ x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SSOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 99db0a20-ab1b-4111-d829-08d561a3ed12 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:VI1PR07MB1037; H:VI1PR07MB1005.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: ericsson.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: O+YRtJ/A5oDUckAeRYscXVUhh6RCBf3cd14RNqM/5UzfcFah/alJpaPl4Zb51n/MumLqcbN5PR5QXyXqBt/3Uw== spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 99db0a20-ab1b-4111-d829-08d561a3ed12 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 Jan 2018 14:25:02.6073 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB1037 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA02Se0hTYRjG+c45247L5dfUfNGsNjLIUjMlF3Sx7I8ZWkH9kSvQmccL6rQd FQ2CiWWoCWXWcF6r2cWVNdu8hFQqgZdGaKBQyBKXohaSFuUlbcczof9+3/M+7/N8H3w0Ka0Q +NJpmhxGq1FnyIViqupc2/6gyJ+Mau+q3UMxMNkvVCzNVVOKldoaUtH/RR1JKTsMoyKl0bhA KA36YuFpUiU+mMRkpOUx2pDDCeJUnfk+mW3xyJ9tHqZ0SOdRitxowOFgbXAIS5GYluIeBHZd McUfehH0Xe0VcAcKzxHQUNTvmugJmGs0uXbGEdxbvIu4MCE+Du0tNQKOvfAluPGmcI1JvA1m TH9Jjj1xBCyMlBC8RwEPmzqdu7STE2HRHMPJFA6A5fJ6ISdL8AX4bWX5qlIh3F74JuI8bvgA 1LyzrnkQ9oexZwq+yQc+OeoJ/mkYjJ0fSJ69YWp8RcCzDH4/0Lt0fxiqL0NcPmALAYU9Ntdy MFhvfUc8x8KQcZDiTYMIXg7OE1wx4EAo/3OM96TDZNtniucTYLa1rYeS0GtacDVvga7KpwQ/ qBHCo8Z+6iYKMfx3c4Mzl8S74PkrlyyDyrIxEccSvAn6qhxUA6KakDfLsGxmyr6wYEabdpFl szTBGianBTl/SpdlKagdmWaOdiNMI7m7pG6UUUkF6jy2ILMbAU3KvSTJj52SJEldcJnRZsVr czMYthv50ZTcR9IXLVFJcYo6h0lnmGxGuz4laDdfHTobF/vx9aJXwuxuW8wG6VuTrHpIprx2 pO5X1TC4z+duXL0yINu+Ob+24/xIPOVpOxQ0k9zEhFVL9ck7V/2qJ/Y0l02LvH/YIp5o7YZZ 0nwmbutEd9SOr0XXJ1QvShK941rtrXdkrKUnMSp6+H1EQO2AOmq5Iny6wDq1dErnCD0pp9hU dWggqWXV/wAkK2aUJQMAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 14:25:08 -0000 SGkgTG9hLA0KSSB0aGluayB0aGlzIGNhc2UgaXMgcmF0aGVyIGRpZmZlcmVudC4gVGhlICJQYWNr ZXQgT3JkZXJpbmciIGZ1bmN0aW9uIA0KaXMgcmF0aGVyIHNwZWNpZmljIGFuZCBZb3UgbmVlZCB0 aGUgcmlnaHQgb3JkZXIgb25seSBhdCB0aGUgZWdyZXNzLg0KQ2hlZXJzDQpCYWxhJ3pzDQoNCi0t LS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBMb2EgQW5kZXJzc29uIFttYWlsdG86bG9h QHBpLm51XSANClNlbnQ6IDIwMTguIGphbnXDoXIgMjIuIDE0OjEyDQpUbzogU3Rld2FydCBCcnlh bnQgPHN0ZXdhcnQuYnJ5YW50QGdtYWlsLmNvbT47IEJhbMOhenMgVmFyZ2EgQSA8YmFsYXpzLmEu dmFyZ2FAZXJpY3Nzb24uY29tPjsgQW5kcmV3IEcuIE1hbGlzIDxhZ21hbGlzQGdtYWlsLmNvbT4N CkNjOiBEZXROZXQgV0cgPGRldG5ldEBpZXRmLm9yZz4NClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbRGV0bmV0XSBE UCBzb2x1dGlvbiAoRmxvdyBpZGVudGlmaWNhdGlvbikNCg0KU3Rld2FydCwNCg0KT24gMjAxOC0w MS0yMiAxODo0MiwgU3Rld2FydCBCcnlhbnQgd3JvdGU6DQo+IA0KPiANCj4gT24gMTkvMDEvMjAx OCAwOTowOSwgQmFsw6F6cyBWYXJnYSBBIHdyb3RlOg0KPj4NCj4+IEFsc28gZHVyaW5nIHRoZSBF bGltaW5hdGlvbg0KPj4NCj4+IHdlIGNhbiBzaW1wbGUgY29uY2VudHJhdGUgb24gZHVwbGljYXRl IGRldGVjdGlvbiBhbmQgb3V0LXNvdXJjZSANCj4+IGluLW9yZGVyIGRlbGl2ZXJ5IHRvIERONC4N Cj4+DQo+IA0KPiBJbiB0aGUgbWlkZGxlIG9mIHRoZSBuZXR3b3JrIGl0IG1heSBiZSBzdWZmaWNp ZW50IHRvIGRvIGFwcHJveGltYXRlIA0KPiBkdXBsaWNhdGlvbiBkZXRlY3Rpb24uIFRoYXQgaXMg dG8gc2F5IGRlbGV0ZSBhIHBhY2tldCBpZiBpdCBoYXMgdGhlIA0KPiBzYW1lIHMvbiBhcyBpdHMg cHJlZGVjZXNzb3IgKG1heSBiZSB3aXRoIGEgdmVyeSB0aW55IHdpbmRvdykgYW5kIGxldCANCj4g dGhlIGVncmVzcyBkbyBhbnl0aGluZyBtb3JlIGNvbXBsZXguDQoNClRoaXMgaGFzIGJlZW4gdHJp ZWQgYmVmb3JlLCBidXQgaWYgSSByZW1lbWJlciBjb3JyZWN0bHkuIHRoZXJlIHR1cm5lZCBvdXQg dG8gYmUgdmVyeSBmZXcgdHJ1ZSBQIG5vZGVzLg0KDQovTG9hDQo+IA0KPiAtIFN0ZXdhcnQNCj4g DQo+IA0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0K PiBkZXRuZXQgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IGRldG5ldEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5p ZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2RldG5ldA0KPiANCg0KLS0gDQoNCg0KTG9hIEFuZGVy c3NvbiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIGVtYWlsOiBsb2FAcGkubnUNClNlbmlvciBNUExT IEV4cGVydA0KSHVhd2VpIFRlY2hub2xvZ2llcyAoY29uc3VsdGFudCkgICAgIHBob25lOiArNDYg NzM5IDgxIDIxIDY0DQo= From nobody Mon Jan 22 06:32:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 982341275C5 for ; 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Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:36798 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89_1) (envelope-from ) id 1edd8e-002Z1d-B3; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:31:56 -0700 To: Jouni , detnet@ietf.org References: <0cb101d38fe6$ce414370$6ac3ca50$@gmail.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 09:31:55 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1edd8e-002Z1d-B3 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.86.101]:36798 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 7 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] data plane draft repository X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 14:32:13 -0000 FYI - for the formatted version: text: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jounikor/draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol/master/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-01.txt html: https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc.cgi?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jounikor/draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol/master/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-01.xml&modeAsFormat=html%2Fascii diff http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jounikor/draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol/master/draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol-02.txt&url2=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jounikor/draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol/master/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-01.txt Lou On 1/21/2018 6:06 AM, Jouni wrote: > There’s been quite a few edits to the draft. See the current snapshot: > https://github.com/jounikor/draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol/blob/master/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-01.xml > > - Jouni > > >> On 18 Jan 2018, at 00:59, Jouni wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> The work in progress data plane draft XML source file can be found at: >> https://github.com/jounikor/draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol >> >> - Jouni >> > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Mon Jan 22 06:40:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA852124207 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 06:40:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.31 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.31 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id szVZP8Wz-24v for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 06:40:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DABFA1241F8 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 06:40:40 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-d31ff70000006bc7-06-5a65f7e60abd Received: from ESESSHC016.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.66]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id AF.F9.27591.6E7F56A5; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:40:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUR01-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (153.88.183.145) by oa.msg.ericsson.com (153.88.183.66) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.352.0; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:40:38 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ericsson.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=8+S6kn6gFCQ57gDIMoAwTn6z9RzvQeWtBe2FaaG/F2Q=; b=FlzYbeV+AwYo7oIJZgLA4TnMkEhMa6+wdU1bt3whH9a4oZwj3JyQihA6R2L+clp2XQH1N0IlLVY6HDhkNqUtMzaP4RiNT8EdlfjkrXpVOCO3aSq6uaUoYHwKjpnpAcCF4A16xOV+cVQyKsTJmlXi6H+GTEBFHOz6xghe1eeXIpQ= Received: from VI1PR07MB1005.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.161.110.21) by VI1PR07MB0830.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.161.107.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P256) id 15.20.444.5; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 14:40:36 +0000 Received: from VI1PR07MB1005.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::50bd:9309:e843:94d1]) by VI1PR07MB1005.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::50bd:9309:e843:94d1%17]) with mapi id 15.20.0444.008; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 14:40:36 +0000 From: =?utf-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBWYXJnYSBB?= To: Lou Berger , Jouni , "Loa Andersson" CC: DetNet WG , "Andrew G. Malis" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) Thread-Index: AdON9g9s51ad7oXxQLCexQu8wQXvkQC7cf+AAA8wdgAACIj1gAAEba6AAEsnCgAABtCgAAA70aAAAABs+kA= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 14:40:36 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7bf069e6-2727-6d55-7247-58b515f71424@pi.nu> <1113ebaf-1477-59e9-982b-d14c0dbb5c79@pi.nu> <7A27B52F-B693-4C60-B963-E143BFFBFFC3@gmail.com> <2ddcd1a6-0f42-4f73-7e0b-2bbb778d7181@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <2ddcd1a6-0f42-4f73-7e0b-2bbb778d7181@labn.net> Accept-Language: hu-HU, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [94.21.126.141] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; VI1PR07MB0830; 7:NfEDG3nQaNDDcVy0ox2/Rg2nTDclVJncVoSzSb3JirQM7tJHcJP0wIWiDwck0SIKxYKCw/pMZVpw+PL8ml263JXYjHwjRCZ2kOIFpeQ0l1d3If7xu3NpkGVlWGC4s94KSR0BzjUrvQZMxmJ8kxDYWuF0MCHuMWaK4NT0XO52m4EzELqP6GeLwhuqGS9hGNFAsa3u82aY9ftASfKctQzp5DzNCTa6ZcSNW4O41kqSX3DYvtn1zClytktT7JyVsudf x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SSOS; 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-0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmgw3 with id 1T0p1x00n2SSUrH01T0sXi; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 08:00:53 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=XM9AcUpE c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10 a=RgaUWeydRksA:10 a=3lo_VGr9eh89OsmRxgcA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=/mWZBTmgRKwVs58oVKWv/PYLUAy+boV3sEe+L6wR7ME=; b=084t/oSzs+fBlWFQLoF2/Rou6O n+RkEvuopdQPWTFlHfeJc4zDUCIPJFmThCL6E61t/PMp+WhXEkULoiE20pK7sYEHmLfsuPgxATgAx QMMKp5sXwaFKlAVJbRQsoRr57; Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:38950 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89_1) (envelope-from ) id 1eddab-002iXE-0H; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 08:00:49 -0700 To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= , DetNet WG References: <9d8fab9f-b5dd-6df0-1463-1c0eb63e8cdc@gmail.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 10:00:47 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1eddab-002iXE-0H X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.86.101]:38950 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 2 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] IPv4 support (was: DP solution (Flow identification)) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:01:00 -0000 I wanted to follow up on the IPv4 point from this message: In the past we have discussed that IPv4 would be supported as a special case of IEEE 802.1TSN over DetNet, i.e., end stations would map IPv4 (presumably, 5 tuple)  flows to TSN flows and then TSN domains would be interconnected over DetNet.  Of course this means that IPv4 DetNet support would be limited to  TSN domains interconnected via basically bridging.  Note that this case requires no special IPv4 awareness or IPv4 processing in the DetNet domain. An alternative to this would be that the DetNet edge node map individual IPv4 (again, presumably, 5 tuple)  flows, which still arrive via a TSN subnet,  to DetNet flows and transport (e.g., over MPLS).  In this case, the IPv4 flows could be forwarded and the scope would not be limited to bridged/interconnected TSN domains.  This would of course required additional DetNet definition and support. It would be good to here from  WG participants would like to see this additional case explicitly covered by the WG. Options are: 1) keep as is: IPv4 supported as a byproduct of TSN interconnect 2) add routed DetNet support for IPv4 flows (carried over DetNet transport) Lou On 1/18/2018 2:41 PM, Balázs Varga A wrote: ... > > - Do we need DetNet data-plane for IPv4, IPv6 and MPLS? > > Yes, that would be nice to have for all of them. But I think it is a > better question which one has the smallest distance to be > DetNet-ready? (I mean which need the less new stuff to support DN?) > The data-plane alternative related draft focused on that and also the > mailing threads here. > > Conclusion: I think we can conclude on a rank of "smallest > DetNet-distance": > > 1, MPLS > > 2, IPv6 > > 3. IPv4 > > Note: in my view this is also the probability list what networks > someone intends to use to forward DetNet flows … > From nobody Mon Jan 22 07:26:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6FD212426E for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:26:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.689 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.689 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vTfeX3yEsB1R for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:26:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x230.google.com (mail-wm0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 643191200C5 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:26:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x230.google.com with SMTP id 143so17025409wma.5 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:26:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=nLo1k6XhPN0DmS5NOUnJmfwBXIHVvGc2WPYVGbMBgao=; b=CXWzsDKbr7KFLts299N/yiq+MEgqzyx1TZXkud+PXMl7dm9Ksbqzy9E8EaPdkmRQm9 ZKU4QXS8NOxP0R4evPuNxYNVQd1Pf1mRUM85zlwknwvQymNk84t3c9SBS2bKxmM02tvs 0GiUtNb4MD1UB/ovE+Zjj6WB22Xj9dtZ/TglbqEwplVwnqDLnWK3FFtJi80d6Lnm2agd a3lE9wPapnRZEus6COHJzlg4m6jROVm0dy8Qv++LOzzYSt6OrBF/6ePnEIDuo0AbN+LJ 3v4pSHSIOLYxX7hNGm0LrUhK3JCb6ogwVIK4nOER8gh+jiFO3k0VJ1VqV2TNU41AcsnM mJIA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=nLo1k6XhPN0DmS5NOUnJmfwBXIHVvGc2WPYVGbMBgao=; b=KQObzR2hQfegF9y0jFBkTBbdQurL3MdsVKY95uttF4MQSNKPc9ZN6apawjXdMQddtd L1ehz7ddNxUnyduf+RjUMTAGYvrebklxQKYKmuijAbYx7CmdXCdBDEw6B/1xd4xE6J4n DMn4qOzYqr3CrOkVNbc2ZzL07bXxm6vs95/M9yAB08ysa+V6DAvEBel3ni/7+sM2giWx kCOscMbkRQCCDhh5qNgNMcJqPJwDEIQvhqvSV1tck8n6tXTv3ZetZ87x0dc2RlwIgHuC 64cYLJuAZey2lHavxlNuqT6jOnhJzqTTde77j7p3mFdjF8N7MrX3QMSg8DmIDHr/UDrO jymA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytckdiNls46seL2BYl7ZuBHwGbbxPKi1oPTGdxWft7mfo+bq6JpL 1nojjyboPsNJDViJlS+cKoI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x227p6/Fttok7mx5434MvSob8zyAnqqYdtL/0o2zyEzgUXtW/1DoreeNJYAbeA/5fQgEBLHJC4g== X-Received: by 10.28.142.74 with SMTP id q71mr3874454wmd.125.1516634769972; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:26:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.126] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v23sm5322438wmh.30.2018.01.22.07.26.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:26:09 -0800 (PST) To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= , Lou Berger , Jouni , Loa Andersson Cc: DetNet WG , "Andrew G. Malis" References: <7bf069e6-2727-6d55-7247-58b515f71424@pi.nu> <1113ebaf-1477-59e9-982b-d14c0dbb5c79@pi.nu> <7A27B52F-B693-4C60-B963-E143BFFBFFC3@gmail.com> <2ddcd1a6-0f42-4f73-7e0b-2bbb778d7181@labn.net> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <1cbf2ccd-9bbd-411a-c88d-a19de1310f7a@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:26:07 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------267DBE706490237F00F0FF96" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:26:35 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------267DBE706490237F00F0FF96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 22/01/2018 14:40, Balázs Varga A wrote: > > 2, Window size (used for S/N comparison) > > The other constraint we should consider more is how big window size > the chips > > are able to deal with. It is a story e.g., about memory … > Well partially a matter of memory and partially a matter of calculation. If you have a small window in a big s/n you can run a number of tricks such as a rotating bit mask and a single full function counter to identify say the start. I think we need to first understand what we would like, then see if building is is plausible. - Stewart --------------267DBE706490237F00F0FF96 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit



On 22/01/2018 14:40, Balázs Varga A wrote:

2, Window size (used for S/N comparison)

The other constraint we should consider more is how big window size the chips

are able to deal with. It is a story e.g., about memory …


Well partially a matter of memory and partially a matter of calculation.

If you have a small window in a big s/n you can run a number of tricks such as a rotating bit mask and a single full function counter to identify say the start.

I think we need to first understand what we would like, then see if building is is plausible.

- Stewart
--------------267DBE706490237F00F0FF96-- From nobody Mon Jan 22 07:31:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 675B012426E for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:31:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wKLNkR1EpedM for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:31:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr0-x22b.google.com (mail-wr0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 934361200C5 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:31:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id 100so9103689wrb.7 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:31:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=DQF9Zd3v2YUPl0H7wocMPEIiyUvqoYd/hiT8CMeyxV8=; b=h2vfR5/rYNVh+IxfrfOZL0W00hw5Xyjz3GCPJASdMKZ8iFzQAu2IT/kxnCUtlYyuJ8 +wzfS6asBTi74znOnLR/cVCG7WLErMIN5/BbrJEpu0ImtB0Qfclzd8VynE5Z3Fz7F5AG zy9OMkwf3H3Cro4nB47l1stqT3hBmZoJZhavl9z2KaQKqDNknSR4vNm1vPmARPqkiZoD Rm5oF9x2HfjuMdjS0nQm5CqK31E3qsMAVs5mnne/5FCBFv/cn20Nir20jNeWUDSRIBzt Y4lZ2YkYi+6pXQ67ZH6T9VH9Qi0vYeeFv3DAMSLwoICRHZTO2Rz/4gLn+2UnVsu5gR2D AA7g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=DQF9Zd3v2YUPl0H7wocMPEIiyUvqoYd/hiT8CMeyxV8=; b=UpbQF7ah0BlwoxxMl+WriP+lRgo0bhPW3bTR20Tbi+rfi0FfafZIu6nJUR07SekzaG YU3MZ4sb/KiPAC4BfzGOCvsfH4glTMePtn9IKTtOsyNWsFEPHHJrmJevUsCF3pUQP1sc T8I3V7hWPimq/WPGl0TfojvalLexdjJRJqN49hsC4QXf+owQukHPhkhSBzWqNjagQRpt 5sMu4pVIvsCrt3WDu1FHlTpPLdLmvrkXDhyqIM5NrGFWhe3fTQQ/PM2UK5MgCT9Ls1dF r0qFb+cPIBd1rBVpwvtFm7tl9OFr4F5Rg7R0uRQoAdaKkUf37R/OfjtwdrECrK+WHN7p k4vA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytdK/oDX1RBTI3weuVjrMGfgyiaBmuh27mvQtfyxtJp0vKFRZzeI bZ0f1N9KxOk2dsAl255g1IKS81AI X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x227YuvGJdX8BXFf0ioA2r991fxKZjA/rbKeiEGaKTNJKh8IjmDCpSlw+IqGD3jI29Y1N6z4+Lg== X-Received: by 10.223.188.18 with SMTP id s18mr6117263wrg.226.1516635077838; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:31:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.126] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f19sm5046345wmf.23.2018.01.22.07.31.16 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:31:17 -0800 (PST) To: Lou Berger , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= , DetNet WG References: <9d8fab9f-b5dd-6df0-1463-1c0eb63e8cdc@gmail.com> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <748cc933-4806-68db-68b7-748ea71a7337@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:31:16 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] IPv4 support X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:31:29 -0000 If we go with 1, I think we will end up back here sometime also solving 2. A lot depends on how tied to TSN some of the applications are. - Stewart On 22/01/2018 15:00, Lou Berger wrote: > I wanted to follow up on the IPv4 point from this message: > > In the past we have discussed that IPv4 would be supported as a > special case of IEEE 802.1TSN over DetNet, i.e., end stations would > map IPv4 (presumably, 5 tuple)  flows to TSN flows and then TSN > domains would be interconnected over DetNet.  Of course this means > that IPv4 DetNet support would be limited to  TSN domains > interconnected via basically bridging.  Note that this case requires > no special IPv4 awareness or IPv4 processing in the DetNet domain. > > An alternative to this would be that the DetNet edge node map > individual IPv4 (again, presumably, 5 tuple)  flows, which still > arrive via a TSN subnet,  to DetNet flows and transport (e.g., over > MPLS).  In this case, the IPv4 flows could be forwarded and the scope > would not be limited to bridged/interconnected TSN domains.  This > would of course required additional DetNet definition and support. > > It would be good to here from  WG participants would like to see this > additional case explicitly covered by the WG. > > Options are: > > 1) keep as is: IPv4 supported as a byproduct of TSN interconnect > > 2) add routed DetNet support for IPv4 flows (carried over DetNet > transport) > > Lou > > > On 1/18/2018 2:41 PM, Balázs Varga A wrote: > ... >> >> - Do we need DetNet data-plane for IPv4, IPv6 and MPLS? >> >> Yes, that would be nice to have for all of them. But I think it is a >> better question which one has the smallest distance to be >> DetNet-ready? (I mean which need the less new stuff to support DN?) >> The data-plane alternative related draft focused on that and also the >> mailing threads here. >> >> Conclusion: I think we can conclude on a rank of "smallest >> DetNet-distance": >> >> 1, MPLS >> >> 2, IPv6 >> >> 3. IPv4 >> >> Note: in my view this is also the probability list what networks >> someone intends to use to forward DetNet flows … >> > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Mon Jan 22 07:35:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8240124207 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:35:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.689 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.689 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WsaHPK1gjU3i for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf0-x234.google.com (mail-lf0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F371712426E for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:35:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf0-x234.google.com with SMTP id g72so11118417lfg.5 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:35:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:thread-index:content-language; bh=9UU78Bi7MEeitIT3hxC2m9NybJzcTd7EUsIx7W8LQTI=; b=VMJnrJgGxMsPkMsRuklL7tBelIIASQoaCGjWNzQyTTS+6v1E4qXAN/iMjIRu4STKNE uePq9TvyyEBxEO6gYZCSYgGQFUU2AwhO9vfkeZUnRVi1D9KxkoJUDsjmx8yKZ+m/fS7B G5Btvoy+MjvmDXkcWKTRO4FofSjk+uiyDDKS+zbQDbq+Qtr1VicUc4EzNDWxBhvWe+so rB5GEKr1mCwSc+C87n+PEB+MCqi6xaoV54O58KQG5KMt2veCi33gsjkSlDs9PtLresSG FlUcqZn+Q4YA8R8Nu1LIORrMjdbnCrdsDbMzKmDoIBhKf37vPsQ7bPdheolOLKIMsqxz kdXA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:thread-index:content-language; bh=9UU78Bi7MEeitIT3hxC2m9NybJzcTd7EUsIx7W8LQTI=; b=oZ5h7RUzCWx9DFoLkMX6ra+/S82eiiarBRzP6/4w2YcfZcJ00FzpU2W4S+UZizq4A1 5JkZp7Av4z2FGFtenDgDRqK/h4Vns/ayjOS6V6B8WT/P214Ya9hjwfUcwEBj6xHUYI1J /8BnyXcB9h7nS8LZi6U6NLBoWmAxNVZbD0WgJpU8RYmozZ3ebRpTjsU2MioW23iVR1RR UgEd6/Ry7wEf7IEB5ZwNvYVFg19mPVxSgvnj7F/HUdRZzy/xiDna2B9bYw7fFhiRHb1n aeUKTq+gTF28ZAi5lb1ekRIMsWU8SqzkkcT8JeGO+Mo3nEn2z2H3sYJtPHt/oATR5MLp Ez6g== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytfhPChzaT4N6hNYJSm68XApDhoEhEnmVBxmU8Acfk6SxJKivXpb 6zAbJTnOfGFOTOD05MYiy+4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x226QlUGiLO/ylf+r9tWPTqqwhjHnSMdDVYXUAQvgtCkAQNnDmLb4gTB40u1Ct/U9d6zUnTZM6A== X-Received: by 10.25.152.18 with SMTP id a18mr3115906lfe.49.1516635335259; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:35:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from JOKO (81-175-169-205.co.dnainternet.fi. [81.175.169.205]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 4sm2786424ljs.81.2018.01.22.07.35.34 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:35:34 -0800 (PST) From: "Jouni" To: "'Lou Berger'" , "'Loa Andersson'" Cc: "'DetNet WG'" , "'Andrew G. Malis'" , =?utf-8?Q?'Bal=C3=A1zs_Varga_A'?= References: <7bf069e6-2727-6d55-7247-58b515f71424@pi.nu> <1113ebaf-1477-59e9-982b-d14c0dbb5c79@pi.nu> <7A27B52F-B693-4C60-B963-E143BFFBFFC3@gmail.com> <2ddcd1a6-0f42-4f73-7e0b-2bbb778d7181@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <2ddcd1a6-0f42-4f73-7e0b-2bbb778d7181@labn.net> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 17:35:33 +0200 Message-ID: <00f501d39396$a4e93240$eebb96c0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00F6_01D393A7.687E3740" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIy0rMuNZiFUfcD65iH4cxgU1XUsAH2LejKAgCVL10B0H63BQJ96HKEAVk2nfwC8XBrRwLCRnmZokb2p/A= Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:35:41 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00F6_01D393A7.687E3740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, =20 I was just doing the worst case since 1Tb links got into discussion i.e. = one flow takes over the entire capacity. =20 - Jouni =20 From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]=20 Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 16:17 PM To: Jouni ; Loa Andersson Cc: DetNet WG ; Andrew G. Malis ; = Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) =20 Jouni, I may be off but isn't sequence number independent per flow? So = it's not the max link speed that's critical, but rather the max flow = size, right? =20 Certainly link speed provides an upper bound on a single flow, and there = are certainly some use cases where a single flow will consume even the = biggest link, but my experience is that such flows *always* use large = packets. In any case, I (personally, no hat) don't see this as the = common case nor *necessarily* the required *initial* detnet solution. Also, I ran sum numbers for bits needed for 1sec at different frame = sizes. 25 bits looks sufficient for almost all flows, and is only = insufficient for 4 smaller frame sizes at 400G and 1T. So in either case = (flows or links) 28 bits more than sufficient. Lou Hopefully this looks okay... bits needed 64 BPkt=20 128 BPkt=20 256 BPkt=20 512 BPkt=20 1514 BPkt=20 4096 BPkt=20 9216 BPkt=20 10M 14 13 12 11 10 8 7 1G 21 20 19 18 16 15 14 100G 27 26 25 24 23 22 20 400G 29 28 27 26 25 24 22 1T 30 30 29 28 26 25 24 =20 On 1/21/2018 4:43 AM, Jouni wrote: =20 Quick and dirty calculation with 1500 octet packet (+ ethernet overhead = of 42 octets) at 400Gb/s link a 25 bit SN is able to hold more than 1 = sec of traffic. With 256 octet packet 1 sec would need 28 bit SN. 1Tb/s with 512 octet packet (+ethernet overhead) for 1 sec would need 28 = bit SN. This is based on the calculation how many packets you are able = to inject within a given time constraint. I do not consider here yet = how you would find out a late packet based on the SN i.e., whether you = need to reserve half of the SN space for =E2=80=9Cin window=E2=80=9D = packets or some other amount like 10%. Anyway, it is still _early_ in = Sunday morning so tolerate errors.. =20 To me 28 bits seems to be plenty.. and a single on-wire format is simple = (assuming the actual SN bits are defined by the CP or config). =20 - Jouni =20 =20 On 21 Jan 2018, at 08:28, Loa Andersson = wrote: =20 Andy, all, =20 (I thought I sent a response to this, but it never did show up, so = re-sending. Apologize if there are duplicates). =20 So we all agree that we need the sequence number for elimination purposes. =20 We still need to agree on the size and format of the sequence number =20 What will impact the calculation of the sequence number size are: =20 - the maximum sustained DetNet flow BW - the minimum average packet size of a DetNet flow - the maximum lifetime of an errant packet =20 My guesstimate is that we need to allow for a sustained BW of 1 Tbs, = that the average packet size is less that 1500 bytes and that the life time of an errant packet is at least 500 ms. =20 But we obviously need better answers than that to be able to calculate = the sequence number size we med. =20 Any takers?? =20 /Loa =20 =20 =20 On 2018-01-20 02:36, Andrew G. Malis wrote: Loa, You=E2=80=99re right, we do need to think about the maximum lifetime of = an errant packet in the network as well, thanks for that. You=E2=80=99re also correct that we need to define what=E2=80=99s = optimal for DETNET, however we do have a charter constraint. To quote = Lou=E2=80=99s recent email, "We are not expected to come up with new = encapsulations, but rather how DetNet uses what exists today. =E2=80=9C. = So we can=E2=80=99t be TOO creative ... I=E2=80=99m really interested to hear what other people have to say = about the upper limit of flow BW that DetNet needs to support, and I = also made an assumption in my math that an average DetNet packet (at = least for a very large flow) would be 1500 bytes. Do we have consensus = on that as well? That also has implications for the sequence number = length. Cheers, Andy On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 11:29 AM, Loa Andersson > wrote: Andy, On 2018-01-19 20:25, Andrew G. Malis wrote: Loa, We really don=E2=80=99t need a =E2=80=9CD=E2=80=9D bit, as we can = allocate a PW type to indicate that this is a DetNet PW, plus the context of the label can identify its use for a DetNet PW/flow. Fine, however we have at least diverging opinions, that both say that we should not use PWs - first we have people that believe that we should use EVPN instead - second there are people that say that we should define what is necessary for DetNet and then specify that independent of EVPN and PWs We need a consensus on that before we can start the design according = to one or the other of those paradigms. We DO need the first nibble to be zero. But beyond that, we are free to use all 28 bits as a sequence number, if there=E2=80=99s = no need for either flags or PW-layer fragmentation, which would require two bits. The key to determine the required number of bits in the sequence number is to determine, for the maximum expected rate of a DetNet flow, how long will it take to wrap around? Isn't that only part of the truth? We are not concerned only by the fact that the source might sue the same sequence number again, but that a struggling packet might show up at a point in the network where a wrap around just happened. For example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would reasonably equate to 833K pps, assuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap around in a little over one second with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with a 27-bit sequence number would wrap around in about 1 second. All that said, a second is a very long holding time for flows with constrained latency, so we could probably take two bits off those numbers and still be OK (wrap around in 250 ms). So 25 bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 bits gives us room for further BW growth in the future, approaching 1Tbps. I think that we need to design for Tbps (or worse), but that is = another thing we need consensus on before starting to specify. /Loa Cheers, Andy _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org =20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet =20 --=20 =20 =20 Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu = Senior MPLS Expert Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 =20 _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org =20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet =20 _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org =20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00F6_01D393A7.687E3740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

I was just doing the worst case since 1Tb links got into discussion = i.e. one flow takes over the entire capacity.

 

-          = Jouni

 

From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
Sent: Monday, = January 22, 2018 16:17 PM
To: Jouni = <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; Loa Andersson = <loa@pi.nu>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; = Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A = <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP = solution (Sequence Numbering)

 

Jouni,

 &= nbsp;  I may be off but isn't sequence number independent per = flow?  So it's not the max link speed that's critical, but rather = the max flow size, right? 

Certainly link speed = provides an upper bound on a single flow, and there are certainly some = use cases where a single flow will consume even the biggest link, but my = experience is that such flows *always* use large packets.  In any = case, I (personally, no hat) don't see this as the common case nor = *necessarily* the required *initial* detnet solution.

Also, I ran sum numbers for bits needed for 1sec at = different frame sizes.  25 bits looks sufficient for almost all = flows, and is only insufficient for 4 smaller frame sizes at 400G and = 1T. So in either case (flows or links)  28 bits  more than = sufficient.

Lou

Hopefully this looks = okay...

bits needed

64 BPkt

=C2=A0128 BPkt

=C2=A0256 BPkt

=C2=A0512 BPkt

=C2=A01514 BPkt

=C2=A04096 BPkt

=C2=A09216 BPkt

10M

14

13

12

11

10

8

7

1G

21

20

19

18

16

15

14

100G

27

26

25

24

23

22

20

400G

29

28

27

26

25

24

22

1T

30

30

29

28

26

25

24

 

On = 1/21/2018 4:43 AM, Jouni wrote:

 
Quick and dirty calculation with 1500 octet packet (+ ethernet =
overhead of 42 octets) at 400Gb/s link a 25 bit SN is able to hold more =
than 1 sec of traffic. With 256 octet packet 1 sec would need 28 bit =
SN.
1Tb/s with 512 octet packet (+ethernet =
overhead) for 1 sec would need 28 bit SN. This is based on the =
calculation how many packets you are able to inject within a given time =
constraint.=C2=A0 I do not consider here yet how you would find out a =
late packet based on the SN i.e., whether you need to reserve half of =
the SN space for =E2=80=9Cin window=E2=80=9D packets or some other =
amount like 10%. Anyway, it is still _early_ in Sunday morning so =
tolerate errors..
 
To me =
28 bits seems to be plenty.. and a single on-wire format is simple =
(assuming the actual SN bits are defined by the CP or =
config).
 
- =
Jouni
 
 <=
/pre>
On =
21 Jan 2018, at 08:28, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu> =
wrote:
 
Andy, =
all,
 
(I thought I sent =
a response to this, but it never did show up, so re-sending. Apologize =
if there are =
duplicates).
 
So we all =
agree that we need the sequence number for =
elimination
purposes.
&nbs=
p;
We still need to agree on the size and format of the =
sequence number
 
What =
will impact the calculation of the sequence number size =
are:
 
- the maximum =
sustained DetNet flow BW
- the minimum average =
packet size of a DetNet flow
- the maximum lifetime =
of an errant packet
 
My =
guesstimate is that we need to allow for a sustained BW of 1 Tbs, that =
the average packet size is less that 1500 bytes and that the =
life
time of an errant packet is at least 500 =
ms.
 
But we obviously =
need better answers than that to be able to calculate the sequence =
number size we med.
 
Any =
takers??
 
/Loa=

 
 
&=
nbsp;
On 2018-01-20 02:36, Andrew G. Malis =
wrote:
Loa,
=

You=E2=80=99re right, we do need to think about the maximum =
lifetime of an errant packet in the network as well, thanks for =
that.
You=E2=80=99re also correct that we need to =
define what=E2=80=99s optimal for DETNET, however we do have a charter =
constraint. To quote Lou=E2=80=99s recent email, "We are not =
expected to come up with new encapsulations, but rather how DetNet uses =
what exists today. =E2=80=9C. So we can=E2=80=99t be TOO creative =
...
I=E2=80=99m really interested to hear what =
other people have to say about the upper limit of flow BW that DetNet =
needs to support, and I also made an assumption in my math that an =
average DetNet packet (at least for a very large flow) would be 1500 =
bytes. Do we have consensus on that as well? That also has implications =
for the sequence number =
length.
Cheers,
Andy=

On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 11:29 AM, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu>> =
wrote:
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
Andy,
=C2=A0=C2=A0 On 2018-01-19 20:25, Andrew G. =
Malis wrote:
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
Loa,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 We really =
don=E2=80=99t need a =E2=80=9CD=E2=80=9D bit, as we can allocate a PW =
type to
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
indicate that this is a DetNet PW, plus the context of the =
label
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 can =
identify its use for a DetNet PW/flow.
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
Fine, however we have at least diverging opinions, that both =
say
=C2=A0=C2=A0 that we should not use =
PWs
=C2=A0=C2=A0 - first we have people that =
believe that we should use EVPN =
instead
=C2=A0=C2=A0 - second there are people that =
say that we should define what =
is
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 necessary for =
DetNet and then specify that independent of =
EVPN
=C2=A0=C2=A0 and =
PWs
=C2=A0=C2=A0 We need a consensus on that before =
we can start the design according to
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
one or the other of those =
paradigms.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 We =
DO need the first nibble to be zero. But beyond that, we =
are
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 free to =
use all 28 bits as a sequence number, if there=E2=80=99s no =
need
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for =
either flags or PW-layer fragmentation, which would =
require
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 two =
bits.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The key =
to determine the required number of bits in the =
sequence
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
number is to determine, for the maximum expected rate of =
a
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DetNet flow, =
how long will it take to wrap around?
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
Isn't that only part of the truth? We are not concerned only by =
the
=C2=A0=C2=A0 fact that the source might sue the =
same sequence number again, but
=C2=A0=C2=A0 that a =
struggling packet might show up at a point in the =
network
=C2=A0=C2=A0 where a =
wrap
=C2=A0=C2=A0 around just =
happened.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 For =
example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would reasonably equate =
to
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 833K pps, =
assuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap around =
in
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a little =
over one second with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with =
a
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 27-bit =
sequence number would wrap around in about 1 =
second.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All =
that said, a second is a very long holding time for =
flows
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 with =
constrained latency, so we could probably take two bits =
off
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 those =
numbers and still be OK (wrap around in 250 =
ms).
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 So 25 =
bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 =
bits
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 gives us =
room for further BW growth in the future, =
approaching
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
1Tbps.
=C2=A0=C2=A0 I think that we need to design =
for Tbps (or worse), but that is =
another
=C2=A0=C2=A0 thing we need consensus on =
before starting to specify.
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
/Loa
 =
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Cheers,
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
Andy
_______________________________________________=

detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
=
https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/detnet
&nbs=
p;
-- =

 
 
=

Loa =
Andersson=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS =
Expert
Huawei Technologies =
(consultant)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 phone: +46 739 81 21 =
64
 
_____________________=
__________________________
detnet mailing =
list
detnet@ietf.org
=
https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/detnet
&nbs=
p;
_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
=
https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 

------=_NextPart_000_00F6_01D393A7.687E3740-- From nobody Mon Jan 22 07:38:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5D4F127275 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:38:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7UARq4hKNf9L for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:38:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf0-x22f.google.com (mail-lf0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E82812426E for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:38:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id q194so11101310lfe.13 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:38:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:thread-index:content-language; bh=897wMboUntDCZlCB9muq9tefePCezVAeAFVAw9JTh5s=; b=PCtVzZox5/8lrqNPY+GDUzDoCn+llCh+Th72dqvKFq5C7GPHOXnb1R1WkObbQf2oWg MN9iezuLZNm03VWpAyjOpL3NROzUO1boqFwequtSrD2vheheNpztnCacP30HHhGObllH wNaXC8XwFHIyR7+RHKZ8cZDtkckrJesPAVQ/9l5lIWFnkNC4mx9jN9GsoZhEt8yQCIdf 06ll0kexRgb5Pb1EaLtnmn+HjnJK/FMXkXFh+EOVyLNWhe6IXcsIAs8F7s6N6GlB4Fne LGKtoxkCMCn05g6eGo7KK1EfMioApTSCD+7n5NNEolLfaJoeP3d5H5dpF78cOyKcXBxq SgXg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=897wMboUntDCZlCB9muq9tefePCezVAeAFVAw9JTh5s=; b=SC28JWiBwoCuC+Ll5oukN7/KlCmaLiTVaEAMAApJ3OeB7Z0MvAQtmwPunJvOgIE9Tz NGBUyD/WzW3hmjITr5C1ei8tbN4CRtLwsdyxAswd89vlvlBIkBNX66bSkFOEqV20esWr TruLLNgDqQ9MP6LAUxcM1pQqloqQUFNBdf7sU1YebFS/Jc5Rc717xHNrMp9a1YWM/ree kSBGORFTiUNngCVC931lQQudiYxvQQR9RZeiYuCSZ2lve/GmVaeNNTWXdMx1sZ68Bh7k b+Ea/4O8jpP7ceZ23JjBftbNprxMdFqtw+elObkyA0pwVI8JOYYN0vL5WjN5AnVF9eEc Cgtw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxyteXHO92kGIp1eKVEyXXgNJccS5Kcm1xyFkNORzi0td0GPm7w3aI P9sN/GtKmuzcn8l6jlWOr70WyA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x227j8YXaQ8UJ5itCvrGnQ/ti/V/+1pHZYe3SeUtC6uawlWqRmM2qgTCbprq6fHcsR6HLhiLT0w== X-Received: by 10.25.199.208 with SMTP id x199mr3700841lff.77.1516635492153; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:38:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from JOKO (81-175-169-205.co.dnainternet.fi. [81.175.169.205]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 84sm2671537lfs.21.2018.01.22.07.38.10 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:38:11 -0800 (PST) From: "Jouni" To: "'Lou Berger'" , References: <0cb101d38fe6$ce414370$6ac3ca50$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 17:38:10 +0200 Message-ID: <00fa01d39397$026bcb80$07436280$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQL2fkm1XapFnjdk59xgiRaxU0Ph/wGPn3ErAhLn3QqhHRzOoA== Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] data plane draft repository X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:38:18 -0000 There's also a txt version in the repo.. I just did not point at it = directly :) The diff to dt versions are great. Thanks for those. - Jouni > -----Original Message----- > From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 16:32 PM > To: Jouni ; detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] data plane draft repository >=20 > FYI - for the formatted version: >=20 > text: >=20 > https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jounikor/draft-dt-detnet-dp- > sol/master/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-01.txt >=20 > html: > https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi- > = bin/xml2rfc.cgi?url=3Dhttps://raw.githubusercontent.com/jounikor/draft-dt= - > detnet-dp-sol/master/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol- > 01.xml&modeAsFormat=3Dhtml%2Fascii >=20 > diff > = http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhttps://raw.githu= b > = usercontent.com/jounikor/draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol/master/draft-dt-detnet- > = dp-sol-02.txt&url2=3Dhttps://raw.githubusercontent.com/jounikor/draft-dt-= > detnet-dp-sol/master/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-01.txt >=20 > Lou >=20 > On 1/21/2018 6:06 AM, Jouni wrote: > > There=E2=80=99s been quite a few edits to the draft. See the current = snapshot: > > = https://github.com/jounikor/draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol/blob/master/draft- > ietf-detnet-dp-sol-01.xml > > > > - Jouni > > > > > >> On 18 Jan 2018, at 00:59, Jouni wrote: > >> > >> Folks, > >> > >> The work in progress data plane draft XML source file can be found > at: > >> https://github.com/jounikor/draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol > >> > >> - Jouni > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Mon Jan 22 07:43:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2306C126CD6 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:43:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.689 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.689 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iyRWGa9xV43w for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:43:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf0-x230.google.com (mail-lf0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6435C12426E for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:43:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf0-x230.google.com with SMTP id m8so11123127lfc.6 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:43:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:thread-index:content-language; bh=+UJT4KKFwXf26fBd3UBDS9YfYJibZlHHb7hJ2K1fgbk=; b=ejqzjCwyrbbHMw4ygvoOCN09Wb70TpLngUkzLATJjmm9IyKIiRnH7fn/khJJ7dJWC/ urYr5ucchsX+EVvvL1z/9QG2aZMwP2zd+La+UEppBmFBrFxLV+6S9mJjWNb7Spg3uLby yNyrhvs/kE43kkHq9CJt6NYuP3sk4nN9YfE6ZPdKHbrXadgjI0GED/tWCzKT/9nmaEAx QCL8pkR3p8kB5ASYOcjmgjemp/+IPdNaxs3QAcRrJgMepdSu+jO8JkhxJ+IPhYTpk47g JIPhBlJnBs09fW/VZTKJceTvR03PNXivgI+FwY3zmte1n67JWxC0WpUB51/h/94UG/v0 +9IQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:thread-index:content-language; bh=+UJT4KKFwXf26fBd3UBDS9YfYJibZlHHb7hJ2K1fgbk=; b=b09+6fxom2hM4pYy68kE8uOfxKL/6y4/1nxx0Yq38W+WkJ3YA7/rlnMk0MHZ89on/d lFwY8N4SX7hY8BSOoHqPL9Ly9dnawojxnOw6Y/LQj0dLhgCDnNqbLay0l9fG4BL3Tzud 2DEywkWvymgOjmhFAb7DT9yoo1ssj1otcruLQ60ZXYwR7H8qZTTKAgubtcVkWcanja8W noWsNe2jkEgzdS0zdwdJ5W5fI/eNxFpsNOTVPJ6xBPFHGFIHTa1jWuJXW7o6mJ/fIFKa MbfzUD3ijnnGz9NqaDCR7wvG1dCaZ3yvnzzHdVjd0NQ4GLziWPoLgT0oLlu/+Tcr79JV hptg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytcCokIWJnye2C+X+1pgKtwJgq9E73Fa+uDkN2w2HGgokkbgRD3A ko2AxAW+5Hb78SMngBFve9s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x225AxH8KtNM3BXJGrMi7A3oNruKuPTGvnL1EW6co6p/kIgFVbe13fjSbsfd+sZsJrjyyyfzbCw== X-Received: by 10.46.1.132 with SMTP id f4mr3157040lji.116.1516635787559; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:43:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from JOKO (81-175-169-205.co.dnainternet.fi. [81.175.169.205]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e72sm2653068lfi.56.2018.01.22.07.43.06 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Jan 2018 07:43:06 -0800 (PST) From: "Jouni" To: =?utf-8?Q?'Bal=C3=A1zs_Varga_A'?= , "'Lou Berger'" , "'Loa Andersson'" Cc: "'DetNet WG'" , "'Andrew G. Malis'" References: <7bf069e6-2727-6d55-7247-58b515f71424@pi.nu> <1113ebaf-1477-59e9-982b-d14c0dbb5c79@pi.nu> <7A27B52F-B693-4C60-B963-E143BFFBFFC3@gmail.com> <2ddcd1a6-0f42-4f73-7e0b-2bbb778d7181@labn.net> In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 17:43:05 +0200 Message-ID: <010301d39397$b2891770$179b4650$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0104_01D393A8.761A4BE0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIy0rMuNZiFUfcD65iH4cxgU1XUsAH2LejKAgCVL10B0H63BQJ96HKEAVk2nfwC8XBrRwLCRnmZAU5Z6dyiPIU8IA== Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:43:14 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0104_01D393A8.761A4BE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 The point 2 is exactly what I wanted to stress during the interim call. = E.g., the bitmaps to keep track for packet history window quickly become = an issue in a multiport chips. These are high speed lookups so off-chip = ram is not typically an option. Anyway, the window size is an = implementation/cost matter.. =20 - Jouni =20 From: Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A [mailto:balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com]=20 Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 16:41 PM To: Lou Berger ; Jouni ; Loa = Andersson Cc: DetNet WG ; Andrew G. Malis Subject: RE: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) =20 Hi, =20 I would like to highlight two aspects to S/N size calculations:=20 =20 1, Path delay differences. We use the S/N to identify duplicates at =E2=80=9Cpath merging = points=E2=80=9D (where Duplicate=20 Elimination functions resides in the network).=20 =20 So what really matters is the delay difference of the paths. And the = =E2=80=9Cwindow=E2=80=9D size=20 we use at the Elimination point (see next point). So if the path = difference is e.g.,=20 10 ms than we need a window size to be able to cope with packets = received=20 during that time period. =20 I think path differences should be well below 1 sec. In many use-cases = even 1 ms=20 is too much. =20 2, Window size (used for S/N comparison) The other constraint we should consider more is how big window size the = chips=20 are able to deal with. It is a story e.g., about memory =E2=80=A6 =20 Cheers Bala=E2=80=99zs =20 From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]=20 Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 22. 15:17 To: Jouni >; Loa = Andersson > Cc: DetNet WG >; Andrew G. = Malis >; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga = A > Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) =20 Jouni, I may be off but isn't sequence number independent per flow? So = it's not the max link speed that's critical, but rather the max flow = size, right? =20 Certainly link speed provides an upper bound on a single flow, and there = are certainly some use cases where a single flow will consume even the = biggest link, but my experience is that such flows *always* use large = packets. In any case, I (personally, no hat) don't see this as the = common case nor *necessarily* the required *initial* detnet solution. Also, I ran sum numbers for bits needed for 1sec at different frame = sizes. 25 bits looks sufficient for almost all flows, and is only = insufficient for 4 smaller frame sizes at 400G and 1T. So in either case = (flows or links) 28 bits more than sufficient. Lou Hopefully this looks okay... bits needed 64 BPkt=20 128 BPkt=20 256 BPkt=20 512 BPkt=20 1514 BPkt=20 4096 BPkt=20 9216 BPkt=20 10M 14 13 12 11 10 8 7 1G 21 20 19 18 16 15 14 100G 27 26 25 24 23 22 20 400G 29 28 27 26 25 24 22 1T 30 30 29 28 26 25 24 =20 On 1/21/2018 4:43 AM, Jouni wrote: =20 Quick and dirty calculation with 1500 octet packet (+ ethernet overhead = of 42 octets) at 400Gb/s link a 25 bit SN is able to hold more than 1 = sec of traffic. With 256 octet packet 1 sec would need 28 bit SN. 1Tb/s with 512 octet packet (+ethernet overhead) for 1 sec would need 28 = bit SN. This is based on the calculation how many packets you are able = to inject within a given time constraint. I do not consider here yet = how you would find out a late packet based on the SN i.e., whether you = need to reserve half of the SN space for =E2=80=9Cin window=E2=80=9D = packets or some other amount like 10%. Anyway, it is still _early_ in = Sunday morning so tolerate errors.. =20 To me 28 bits seems to be plenty.. and a single on-wire format is simple = (assuming the actual SN bits are defined by the CP or config). =20 - Jouni =20 =20 On 21 Jan 2018, at 08:28, Loa Andersson = wrote: =20 Andy, all, =20 (I thought I sent a response to this, but it never did show up, so = re-sending. Apologize if there are duplicates). =20 So we all agree that we need the sequence number for elimination purposes. =20 We still need to agree on the size and format of the sequence number =20 What will impact the calculation of the sequence number size are: =20 - the maximum sustained DetNet flow BW - the minimum average packet size of a DetNet flow - the maximum lifetime of an errant packet =20 My guesstimate is that we need to allow for a sustained BW of 1 Tbs, = that the average packet size is less that 1500 bytes and that the life time of an errant packet is at least 500 ms. =20 But we obviously need better answers than that to be able to calculate = the sequence number size we med. =20 Any takers?? =20 /Loa =20 =20 =20 On 2018-01-20 02:36, Andrew G. Malis wrote: Loa, You=E2=80=99re right, we do need to think about the maximum lifetime of = an errant packet in the network as well, thanks for that. You=E2=80=99re also correct that we need to define what=E2=80=99s = optimal for DETNET, however we do have a charter constraint. To quote = Lou=E2=80=99s recent email, "We are not expected to come up with new = encapsulations, but rather how DetNet uses what exists today. =E2=80=9C. = So we can=E2=80=99t be TOO creative ... I=E2=80=99m really interested to hear what other people have to say = about the upper limit of flow BW that DetNet needs to support, and I = also made an assumption in my math that an average DetNet packet (at = least for a very large flow) would be 1500 bytes. Do we have consensus = on that as well? That also has implications for the sequence number = length. Cheers, Andy On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 11:29 AM, Loa Andersson > wrote: Andy, On 2018-01-19 20:25, Andrew G. Malis wrote: Loa, We really don=E2=80=99t need a =E2=80=9CD=E2=80=9D bit, as we can = allocate a PW type to indicate that this is a DetNet PW, plus the context of the label can identify its use for a DetNet PW/flow. Fine, however we have at least diverging opinions, that both say that we should not use PWs - first we have people that believe that we should use EVPN instead - second there are people that say that we should define what is necessary for DetNet and then specify that independent of EVPN and PWs We need a consensus on that before we can start the design according = to one or the other of those paradigms. We DO need the first nibble to be zero. But beyond that, we are free to use all 28 bits as a sequence number, if there=E2=80=99s = no need for either flags or PW-layer fragmentation, which would require two bits. The key to determine the required number of bits in the sequence number is to determine, for the maximum expected rate of a DetNet flow, how long will it take to wrap around? Isn't that only part of the truth? We are not concerned only by the fact that the source might sue the same sequence number again, but that a struggling packet might show up at a point in the network where a wrap around just happened. For example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would reasonably equate to 833K pps, assuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap around in a little over one second with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with a 27-bit sequence number would wrap around in about 1 second. All that said, a second is a very long holding time for flows with constrained latency, so we could probably take two bits off those numbers and still be OK (wrap around in 250 ms). So 25 bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 bits gives us room for further BW growth in the future, approaching 1Tbps. I think that we need to design for Tbps (or worse), but that is = another thing we need consensus on before starting to specify. /Loa Cheers, Andy _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org =20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet =20 --=20 =20 =20 Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu = Senior MPLS Expert Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 =20 _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org =20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet =20 _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org =20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0104_01D393A8.761A4BE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

The point 2 is exactly = what I wanted to stress during the interim call.=C2=A0 E.g., the bitmaps = to keep track for packet history window quickly become an issue in a = multiport chips. These are high speed lookups so off-chip ram is not = typically an option. Anyway, the window size is an implementation/cost = matter..

 

-          = Jouni

 

From: Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A = [mailto:balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com]
Sent: Monday, January = 22, 2018 16:41 PM
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>; = Jouni <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; Loa Andersson = <loa@pi.nu>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; = Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: = [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence = Numbering)

 

Hi,

 

I would like to = highlight two aspects to S/N size calculations:

 

1, Path delay = differences.

We use the S/N to identify duplicates at = =E2=80=9Cpath merging points=E2=80=9D (where Duplicate =

Elimination functions resides in the = network).

 

So what really = matters is the delay difference of the paths. And the = =E2=80=9Cwindow=E2=80=9D size

we use at the = Elimination point (see next point). So if the path difference is e.g., =

10 ms than we need a window size to be able = to cope with packets received

during that time = period.

 

I think path = differences should be well below 1 sec. In many use-cases even 1 ms =

is too much.

 

2, Window size (used = for S/N comparison)

The other constraint we should consider more = is how big window size the chips

are able to deal = with. It is a story e.g., about memory =E2=80=A6

 

Cheers

Bala=E2=80=99zs

 

From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] =
Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 22. 15:17
To: Jouni <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; = Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
Cc: DetNet WG = <detnet@ietf.org>; Andrew = G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs = Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence = Numbering)

 

Jouni,

 &= nbsp;  I may be off but isn't sequence number independent per = flow?  So it's not the max link speed that's critical, but rather = the max flow size, right? 

Certainly link speed = provides an upper bound on a single flow, and there are certainly some = use cases where a single flow will consume even the biggest link, but my = experience is that such flows *always* use large packets.  In any = case, I (personally, no hat) don't see this as the common case nor = *necessarily* the required *initial* detnet solution.

Also, I ran sum numbers for bits needed for 1sec at = different frame sizes.  25 bits looks sufficient for almost all = flows, and is only insufficient for 4 smaller frame sizes at 400G and = 1T. So in either case (flows or links)  28 bits  more than = sufficient.

Lou

Hopefully this looks = okay...

bits needed

64 BPkt

 128 BPkt

 256 BPkt

 512 BPkt

 1514 BPkt

 4096 BPkt

 9216 BPkt

10M

14

13

12

11

10

8

7

1G

21

20

19

18

16

15

14

100G

27

26

25

24

23

22

20

400G

29

28

27

26

25

24

22

1T

30

30

29

28

26

25

24

 

 
Quick and dirty calculation with 1500 octet packet (+ ethernet =
overhead of 42 octets) at 400Gb/s link a 25 bit SN is able to hold more =
than 1 sec of traffic. With 256 octet packet 1 sec would need 28 bit =
SN.
1Tb/s with 512 octet packet (+ethernet =
overhead) for 1 sec would need 28 bit SN. This is based on the =
calculation how many packets you are able to inject within a given time =
constraint.  I do not consider here yet how you would find out a =
late packet based on the SN i.e., whether you need to reserve half of =
the SN space for =E2=80=9Cin window=E2=80=9D packets or some other =
amount like 10%. Anyway, it is still _early_ in Sunday morning so =
tolerate errors..
 
To me =
28 bits seems to be plenty.. and a single on-wire format is simple =
(assuming the actual SN bits are defined by the CP or =
config).
 
- =
Jouni
 
 <=
/pre>
On =
21 Jan 2018, at 08:28, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu> =
wrote:
 
Andy, =
all,
 
(I thought I sent =
a response to this, but it never did show up, so re-sending. Apologize =
if there are =
duplicates).
 
So we all =
agree that we need the sequence number for =
elimination
purposes.
&nbs=
p;
We still need to agree on the size and format of the =
sequence number
 
What =
will impact the calculation of the sequence number size =
are:
 
- the maximum =
sustained DetNet flow BW
- the minimum average =
packet size of a DetNet flow
- the maximum lifetime =
of an errant packet
 
My =
guesstimate is that we need to allow for a sustained BW of 1 Tbs, that =
the average packet size is less that 1500 bytes and that the =
life
time of an errant packet is at least 500 =
ms.
 
But we obviously =
need better answers than that to be able to calculate the sequence =
number size we med.
 
Any =
takers??
 
/Loa=

 
 
&=
nbsp;
On 2018-01-20 02:36, Andrew G. Malis =
wrote:
Loa,
=

You=E2=80=99re right, we do need to think about the maximum =
lifetime of an errant packet in the network as well, thanks for =
that.
You=E2=80=99re also correct that we need to =
define what=E2=80=99s optimal for DETNET, however we do have a charter =
constraint. To quote Lou=E2=80=99s recent email, "We are not =
expected to come up with new encapsulations, but rather how DetNet uses =
what exists today. =E2=80=9C. So we can=E2=80=99t be TOO creative =
...
I=E2=80=99m really interested to hear what =
other people have to say about the upper limit of flow BW that DetNet =
needs to support, and I also made an assumption in my math that an =
average DetNet packet (at least for a very large flow) would be 1500 =
bytes. Do we have consensus on that as well? That also has implications =
for the sequence number =
length.
Cheers,
Andy=

On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 11:29 AM, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu>> =
wrote:
  =
 Andy,
   On 2018-01-19 20:25, =
Andrew G. Malis =
wrote:
       =
Loa,
       We really =
don=E2=80=99t need a =E2=80=9CD=E2=80=9D bit, as we can allocate a PW =
type to
       =
indicate that this is a DetNet PW, plus the context of the =
label
       can =
identify its use for a DetNet PW/flow.
   =
Fine, however we have at least diverging opinions, that both =
say
   that we should not use =
PWs
   - first we have people that =
believe that we should use EVPN =
instead
   - second there are people that =
say that we should define what =
is
      necessary for =
DetNet and then specify that independent of =
EVPN
   and =
PWs
   We need a consensus on that before =
we can start the design according to
   =
one or the other of those =
paradigms.
       We =
DO need the first nibble to be zero. But beyond that, we =
are
       free to =
use all 28 bits as a sequence number, if there=E2=80=99s no =
need
       for =
either flags or PW-layer fragmentation, which would =
require
       two =
bits.
       The key =
to determine the required number of bits in the =
sequence
       =
number is to determine, for the maximum expected rate of =
a
       DetNet flow, =
how long will it take to wrap around?
   =
Isn't that only part of the truth? We are not concerned only by =
the
   fact that the source might sue the =
same sequence number again, but
   that a =
struggling packet might show up at a point in the =
network
   where a =
wrap
   around just =
happened.
       For =
example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would reasonably equate =
to
       833K pps, =
assuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap around =
in
       a little =
over one second with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with =
a
       27-bit =
sequence number would wrap around in about 1 =
second.
       All =
that said, a second is a very long holding time for =
flows
       with =
constrained latency, so we could probably take two bits =
off
       those =
numbers and still be OK (wrap around in 250 =
ms).
       So 25 =
bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 =
bits
       gives us =
room for further BW growth in the future, =
approaching
       =
1Tbps.
   I think that we need to design =
for Tbps (or worse), but that is =
another
   thing we need consensus on =
before starting to specify.
   =
/Loa
       =
Cheers,
       =
Andy
_______________________________________________=

detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
=
https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/detnet
&nbs=
p;
-- =

 
 
=

Loa =
Andersson          &nbs=
p;            =
; email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS =
Expert
Huawei Technologies =
(consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 =
64
 
_____________________=
__________________________
detnet mailing =
list
detnet@ietf.org
=
https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/detnet
&nbs=
p;
_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
=
https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 

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Malis" CC: DetNet WG Thread-Topic: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) Thread-Index: AQHTj8BkcraGe9xzPUOnTqsHM1cKo6N4yeGAgAbx+oSAAF7gAA== Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 16:41:02 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 16:40:33 +0000 Message-ID: <4f1fc9d2f38c419f953640aab870758e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <9d8fab9f-b5dd-6df0-1463-1c0eb63e8cdc@gmail.com> <0d8009f1-ca85-6a4e-aea1-795421a9829b@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0d8009f1-ca85-6a4e-aea1-795421a9829b@gmail.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4f1fc9d2f38c419f953640aab870758eXCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , 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[213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i16sm9026773wre.30.2018.01.22.08.52.39 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Jan 2018 08:52:42 -0800 (PST) To: Jouni , =?UTF-8?Q?'Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A'?= , 'Lou Berger' , 'Loa Andersson' Cc: 'DetNet WG' , "'Andrew G. Malis'" References: <7bf069e6-2727-6d55-7247-58b515f71424@pi.nu> <1113ebaf-1477-59e9-982b-d14c0dbb5c79@pi.nu> <7A27B52F-B693-4C60-B963-E143BFFBFFC3@gmail.com> <2ddcd1a6-0f42-4f73-7e0b-2bbb778d7181@labn.net> <010301d39397$b2891770$179b4650$@gmail.com> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <6af825df-2794-90b3-c32f-86d23ffb1e79@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 16:52:39 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <010301d39397$b2891770$179b4650$@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4DF935BB66F8318C7A264F38" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 16:53:01 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4DF935BB66F8318C7A264F38 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Which is why I keep saying that checking is a system egress function. - Stewart On 22/01/2018 15:43, Jouni wrote: > > The point 2 is exactly what I wanted to stress during the interim > call. E.g., the bitmaps to keep track for packet history window > quickly become an issue in a multiport chips. These are high speed > lookups so off-chip ram is not typically an option. Anyway, the window > size is an implementation/cost matter.. > > -Jouni > > *From:*Balázs Varga A [mailto:balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com] > *Sent:* Monday, January 22, 2018 16:41 PM > *To:* Lou Berger ; Jouni ; > Loa Andersson > *Cc:* DetNet WG ; Andrew G. Malis > *Subject:* RE: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > > Hi, > > I would like to highlight two aspects to S/N size calculations: > > 1, Path delay differences. > > We use the S/N to identify duplicates at “path merging points” (where > Duplicate > > Elimination functions resides in the network). > > So what really matters is the delay difference of the paths. And the > “window” size > > we use at the Elimination point (see next point). So if the path > difference is e.g., > > 10 ms than we need a window size to be able to cope with packets received > > during that time period. > > I think path differences should be well below 1 sec. In many use-cases > even 1 ms > > is too much. > > 2, Window size (used for S/N comparison) > > The other constraint we should consider more is how big window size > the chips > > are able to deal with. It is a story e.g., about memory … > > Cheers > > Bala’zs > > *From:*Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] > *Sent:* 2018. január 22. 15:17 > *To:* Jouni >; > Loa Andersson > > *Cc:* DetNet WG >; Andrew G. > Malis >; Balázs Varga A > > > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > > Jouni, > >     I may be off but isn't sequence number independent per flow?  So > it's not the max link speed that's critical, but rather the max flow > size, right? > > Certainly link speed provides an upper bound on a single flow, and > there are certainly some use cases where a single flow will consume > even the biggest link, but my experience is that such flows *always* > use large packets.  In any case, I (personally, no hat) don't see this > as the common case nor *necessarily* the required *initial* detnet > solution. > > Also, I ran sum numbers for bits needed for 1sec at different frame > sizes.  25 bits looks sufficient for almost all flows, and is only > insufficient for 4 smaller frame sizes at 400G and 1T. So in either > case (flows or links)  28 bits  more than sufficient. > > Lou > > Hopefully this looks okay... > > bits needed > > > > 64 BPkt > > > >  128 BPkt > > > >  256 BPkt > > > >  512 BPkt > > > >  1514 BPkt > > > >  4096 BPkt > > > >  9216 BPkt > > 10M > > > > 14 > > > > 13 > > > > 12 > > > > 11 > > > > 10 > > > > 8 > > > > 7 > > 1G > > > > 21 > > > > 20 > > > > 19 > > > > 18 > > > > 16 > > > > 15 > > > > 14 > > 100G > > > > 27 > > > > 26 > > > > 25 > > > > 24 > > > > 23 > > > > 22 > > > > 20 > > 400G > > > > 29 > > > > 28 > > > > 27 > > > > 26 > > > > 25 > > > > 24 > > > > 22 > > 1T > > > > 30 > > > > 30 > > > > 29 > > > > 28 > > > > 26 > > > > 25 > > > > 24 > > On 1/21/2018 4:43 AM, Jouni wrote: > > Quick and dirty calculation with 1500 octet packet (+ ethernet overhead of 42 octets) at 400Gb/s link a 25 bit SN is able to hold more than 1 sec of traffic. With 256 octet packet 1 sec would need 28 bit SN. > > 1Tb/s with 512 octet packet (+ethernet overhead) for 1 sec would need 28 bit SN. This is based on the calculation how many packets you are able to inject within a given time constraint.  I do not consider here yet how you would find out a late packet based on the SN i.e., whether you need to reserve half of the SN space for “in window” packets or some other amount like 10%. Anyway, it is still _early_ in Sunday morning so tolerate errors.. > > To me 28 bits seems to be plenty.. and a single on-wire format is simple (assuming the actual SN bits are defined by the CP or config). > > - Jouni > > On 21 Jan 2018, at 08:28, Loa Andersson wrote: > > Andy, all, > > (I thought I sent a response to this, but it never did show up, so re-sending. Apologize if there are duplicates). > > So we all agree that we need the sequence number for elimination > > purposes. > > We still need to agree on the size and format of the sequence number > > What will impact the calculation of the sequence number size are: > > - the maximum sustained DetNet flow BW > > - the minimum average packet size of a DetNet flow > > - the maximum lifetime of an errant packet > > My guesstimate is that we need to allow for a sustained BW of 1 Tbs, that the average packet size is less that 1500 bytes and that the life > > time of an errant packet is at least 500 ms. > > But we obviously need better answers than that to be able to calculate the sequence number size we med. > > Any takers?? > > /Loa > > On 2018-01-20 02:36, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > Loa, > > You’re right, we do need to think about the maximum lifetime of an errant packet in the network as well, thanks for that. > > You’re also correct that we need to define what’s optimal for DETNET, however we do have a charter constraint. To quote Lou’s recent email, "We are not expected to come up with new encapsulations, but rather how DetNet uses what exists today. “. So we can’t be TOO creative ... > > I’m really interested to hear what other people have to say about the upper limit of flow BW that DetNet needs to support, and I also made an assumption in my math that an average DetNet packet (at least for a very large flow) would be 1500 bytes. Do we have consensus on that as well? That also has implications for the sequence number length. > > Cheers, > > Andy > > On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 11:29 AM, Loa Andersson > wrote: > >    Andy, > >    On 2018-01-19 20:25, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > >        Loa, > >        We really don’t need a “D” bit, as we can allocate a PW type to > >        indicate that this is a DetNet PW, plus the context of the label > >        can identify its use for a DetNet PW/flow. > >    Fine, however we have at least diverging opinions, that both say > >    that we should not use PWs > >    - first we have people that believe that we should use EVPN instead > >    - second there are people that say that we should define what is > >       necessary for DetNet and then specify that independent of EVPN > >    and PWs > >    We need a consensus on that before we can start the design according to > >    one or the other of those paradigms. > >        We DO need the first nibble to be zero. But beyond that, we are > >        free to use all 28 bits as a sequence number, if there’s no need > >        for either flags or PW-layer fragmentation, which would require > >        two bits. > >        The key to determine the required number of bits in the sequence > >        number is to determine, for the maximum expected rate of a > >        DetNet flow, how long will it take to wrap around? > >    Isn't that only part of the truth? We are not concerned only by the > >    fact that the source might sue the same sequence number again, but > >    that a struggling packet might show up at a point in the network > >    where a wrap > >    around just happened. > >        For example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would reasonably equate to > >        833K pps, assuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap around in > >        a little over one second with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with a > >        27-bit sequence number would wrap around in about 1 second. > >        All that said, a second is a very long holding time for flows > >        with constrained latency, so we could probably take two bits off > >        those numbers and still be OK (wrap around in 250 ms). > >        So 25 bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 bits > >        gives us room for further BW growth in the future, approaching > >        1Tbps. > >    I think that we need to design for Tbps (or worse), but that is another > >    thing we need consensus on before starting to specify. > >    /Loa > >        Cheers, > >        Andy > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > -- > > Loa Andersson                        email:loa@pi.nu > > Senior MPLS Expert > > Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64 > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet --------------4DF935BB66F8318C7A264F38 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


Which is why I keep saying that checking is a system egress function.

- Stewart

On 22/01/2018 15:43, Jouni wrote:

 

The point 2 is exactly what I wanted to stress during the interim call.  E.g., the bitmaps to keep track for packet history window quickly become an issue in a multiport chips. These are high speed lookups so off-chip ram is not typically an option. Anyway, the window size is an implementation/cost matter..

 

-          Jouni

 

From: Balázs Varga A [mailto:balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com]
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 16:41 PM
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>; Jouni <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

 

Hi,

 

I would like to highlight two aspects to S/N size calculations:

 

1, Path delay differences.

We use the S/N to identify duplicates at “path merging points” (where Duplicate

Elimination functions resides in the network).

 

So what really matters is the delay difference of the paths. And the “window” size

we use at the Elimination point (see next point). So if the path difference is e.g.,

10 ms than we need a window size to be able to cope with packets received

during that time period.

 

I think path differences should be well below 1 sec. In many use-cases even 1 ms

is too much.

 

2, Window size (used for S/N comparison)

The other constraint we should consider more is how big window size the chips

are able to deal with. It is a story e.g., about memory …

 

Cheers

Bala’zs

 

From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
Sent: 2018. január 22. 15:17
To: Jouni <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>; Balázs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

 

Jouni,

    I may be off but isn't sequence number independent per flow?  So it's not the max link speed that's critical, but rather the max flow size, right? 

Certainly link speed provides an upper bound on a single flow, and there are certainly some use cases where a single flow will consume even the biggest link, but my experience is that such flows *always* use large packets.  In any case, I (personally, no hat) don't see this as the common case nor *necessarily* the required *initial* detnet solution.

Also, I ran sum numbers for bits needed for 1sec at different frame sizes.  25 bits looks sufficient for almost all flows, and is only insufficient for 4 smaller frame sizes at 400G and 1T. So in either case (flows or links)  28 bits  more than sufficient.

Lou

Hopefully this looks okay...

bits needed

64 BPkt

 128 BPkt

 256 BPkt

 512 BPkt

 1514 BPkt

 4096 BPkt

 9216 BPkt

10M

14

13

12

11

10

8

7

1G

21

20

19

18

16

15

14

100G

27

26

25

24

23

22

20

400G

29

28

27

26

25

24

22

1T

30

30

29

28

26

25

24

 

On 1/21/2018 4:43 AM, Jouni wrote:

 
Quick and dirty calculation with 1500 octet packet (+ ethernet overhead of 42 octets) at 400Gb/s link a 25 bit SN is able to hold more than 1 sec of traffic. With 256 octet packet 1 sec would need 28 bit SN.
1Tb/s with 512 octet packet (+ethernet overhead) for 1 sec would need 28 bit SN. This is based on the calculation how many packets you are able to inject within a given time constraint.  I do not consider here yet how you would find out a late packet based on the SN i.e., whether you need to reserve half of the SN space for “in window” packets or some other amount like 10%. Anyway, it is still _early_ in Sunday morning so tolerate errors..
 
To me 28 bits seems to be plenty.. and a single on-wire format is simple (assuming the actual SN bits are defined by the CP or config).
 
- Jouni
 
 
On 21 Jan 2018, at 08:28, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu> wrote:
 
Andy, all,
 
(I thought I sent a response to this, but it never did show up, so re-sending. Apologize if there are duplicates).
 
So we all agree that we need the sequence number for elimination
purposes.
 
We still need to agree on the size and format of the sequence number
 
What will impact the calculation of the sequence number size are:
 
- the maximum sustained DetNet flow BW
- the minimum average packet size of a DetNet flow
- the maximum lifetime of an errant packet
 
My guesstimate is that we need to allow for a sustained BW of 1 Tbs, that the average packet size is less that 1500 bytes and that the life
time of an errant packet is at least 500 ms.
 
But we obviously need better answers than that to be able to calculate the sequence number size we med.
 
Any takers??
 
/Loa
 
 
 
On 2018-01-20 02:36, Andrew G. Malis wrote:
Loa,
You’re right, we do need to think about the maximum lifetime of an errant packet in the network as well, thanks for that.
You’re also correct that we need to define what’s optimal for DETNET, however we do have a charter constraint. To quote Lou’s recent email, "We are not expected to come up with new encapsulations, but rather how DetNet uses what exists today. “. So we can’t be TOO creative ...
I’m really interested to hear what other people have to say about the upper limit of flow BW that DetNet needs to support, and I also made an assumption in my math that an average DetNet packet (at least for a very large flow) would be 1500 bytes. Do we have consensus on that as well? That also has implications for the sequence number length.
Cheers,
Andy
On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 11:29 AM, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu>> wrote:
   Andy,
   On 2018-01-19 20:25, Andrew G. Malis wrote:
       Loa,
       We really don’t need a “D” bit, as we can allocate a PW type to
       indicate that this is a DetNet PW, plus the context of the label
       can identify its use for a DetNet PW/flow.
   Fine, however we have at least diverging opinions, that both say
   that we should not use PWs
   - first we have people that believe that we should use EVPN instead
   - second there are people that say that we should define what is
      necessary for DetNet and then specify that independent of EVPN
   and PWs
   We need a consensus on that before we can start the design according to
   one or the other of those paradigms.
       We DO need the first nibble to be zero. But beyond that, we are
       free to use all 28 bits as a sequence number, if there’s no need
       for either flags or PW-layer fragmentation, which would require
       two bits.
       The key to determine the required number of bits in the sequence
       number is to determine, for the maximum expected rate of a
       DetNet flow, how long will it take to wrap around?
   Isn't that only part of the truth? We are not concerned only by the
   fact that the source might sue the same sequence number again, but
   that a struggling packet might show up at a point in the network
   where a wrap
   around just happened.
       For example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would reasonably equate to
       833K pps, assuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap around in
       a little over one second with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with a
       27-bit sequence number would wrap around in about 1 second.
       All that said, a second is a very long holding time for flows
       with constrained latency, so we could probably take two bits off
       those numbers and still be OK (wrap around in 250 ms).
       So 25 bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 bits
       gives us room for further BW growth in the future, approaching
       1Tbps.
   I think that we need to design for Tbps (or worse), but that is another
   thing we need consensus on before starting to specify.
   /Loa
       Cheers,
       Andy
_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
 
-- 
 
 
Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS Expert
Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64
 
_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
 
_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 



_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

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[81.175.169.205]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q16sm1273656lfq.66.2018.01.22.09.52.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Jan 2018 09:52:37 -0800 (PST) From: "Jouni" To: "'Stewart Bryant'" , =?utf-8?Q?'Bal=C3=A1zs_Varga_A'?= , "'Lou Berger'" , "'Loa Andersson'" Cc: "'DetNet WG'" , "'Andrew G. Malis'" References: <7bf069e6-2727-6d55-7247-58b515f71424@pi.nu> <1113ebaf-1477-59e9-982b-d14c0dbb5c79@pi.nu> <7A27B52F-B693-4C60-B963-E143BFFBFFC3@gmail.com> <2ddcd1a6-0f42-4f73-7e0b-2bbb778d7181@labn.net> <010301d39397$b2891770$179b4650$@gmail.com> <6af825df-2794-90b3-c32f-86d23ffb1e79@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6af825df-2794-90b3-c32f-86d23ffb1e79@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 19:52:36 +0200 Message-ID: <028f01d393a9$ca51a220$5ef4e660$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0290_01D393BA.8DE19E10" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIy0rMuNZiFUfcD65iH4cxgU1XUsAH2LejKAgCVL10B0H63BQJ96HKEAVk2nfwC8XBrRwLCRnmZAU5Z6dwClN8MAAJ1h9+/ohRJ1/A= Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 17:52:45 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0290_01D393BA.8DE19E10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The current architecture does not prohibit deployment models where PREF = takes place at the ingress/egress only. We need a solution for rings and = ladders where every node basically can participate PREF. =20 - Jouni =20 From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 18:53 PM To: Jouni ; 'Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A' = ; 'Lou Berger' ; 'Loa = Andersson' Cc: 'DetNet WG' ; 'Andrew G. Malis' Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) =20 =20 Which is why I keep saying that checking is a system egress function. - Stewart On 22/01/2018 15:43, Jouni wrote: =20 The point 2 is exactly what I wanted to stress during the interim call. = E.g., the bitmaps to keep track for packet history window quickly become = an issue in a multiport chips. These are high speed lookups so off-chip = ram is not typically an option. Anyway, the window size is an = implementation/cost matter.. =20 - Jouni =20 From: Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A [mailto:balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com]=20 Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 16:41 PM To: Lou Berger ; Jouni = ; Loa Andersson = Cc: DetNet WG ; Andrew G. = Malis Subject: RE: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) =20 Hi, =20 I would like to highlight two aspects to S/N size calculations:=20 =20 1, Path delay differences. We use the S/N to identify duplicates at =E2=80=9Cpath merging = points=E2=80=9D (where Duplicate=20 Elimination functions resides in the network).=20 =20 So what really matters is the delay difference of the paths. And the = =E2=80=9Cwindow=E2=80=9D size=20 we use at the Elimination point (see next point). So if the path = difference is e.g.,=20 10 ms than we need a window size to be able to cope with packets = received=20 during that time period. =20 I think path differences should be well below 1 sec. In many use-cases = even 1 ms=20 is too much. =20 2, Window size (used for S/N comparison) The other constraint we should consider more is how big window size the = chips=20 are able to deal with. It is a story e.g., about memory =E2=80=A6 =20 Cheers Bala=E2=80=99zs =20 From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]=20 Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 22. 15:17 To: Jouni >; Loa = Andersson > Cc: DetNet WG >; Andrew G. = Malis >; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga = A > Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) =20 Jouni, I may be off but isn't sequence number independent per flow? So = it's not the max link speed that's critical, but rather the max flow = size, right? =20 Certainly link speed provides an upper bound on a single flow, and there = are certainly some use cases where a single flow will consume even the = biggest link, but my experience is that such flows *always* use large = packets. In any case, I (personally, no hat) don't see this as the = common case nor *necessarily* the required *initial* detnet solution. Also, I ran sum numbers for bits needed for 1sec at different frame = sizes. 25 bits looks sufficient for almost all flows, and is only = insufficient for 4 smaller frame sizes at 400G and 1T. So in either case = (flows or links) 28 bits more than sufficient. Lou Hopefully this looks okay... bits needed 64 BPkt=20 128 BPkt=20 256 BPkt=20 512 BPkt=20 1514 BPkt=20 4096 BPkt=20 9216 BPkt=20 10M 14 13 12 11 10 8 7 1G 21 20 19 18 16 15 14 100G 27 26 25 24 23 22 20 400G 29 28 27 26 25 24 22 1T 30 30 29 28 26 25 24 =20 On 1/21/2018 4:43 AM, Jouni wrote: =20 Quick and dirty calculation with 1500 octet packet (+ ethernet overhead = of 42 octets) at 400Gb/s link a 25 bit SN is able to hold more than 1 = sec of traffic. With 256 octet packet 1 sec would need 28 bit SN. 1Tb/s with 512 octet packet (+ethernet overhead) for 1 sec would need 28 = bit SN. This is based on the calculation how many packets you are able = to inject within a given time constraint. I do not consider here yet = how you would find out a late packet based on the SN i.e., whether you = need to reserve half of the SN space for =E2=80=9Cin window=E2=80=9D = packets or some other amount like 10%. Anyway, it is still _early_ in = Sunday morning so tolerate errors.. =20 To me 28 bits seems to be plenty.. and a single on-wire format is simple = (assuming the actual SN bits are defined by the CP or config). =20 - Jouni =20 =20 On 21 Jan 2018, at 08:28, Loa Andersson = wrote: =20 Andy, all, =20 (I thought I sent a response to this, but it never did show up, so = re-sending. Apologize if there are duplicates). =20 So we all agree that we need the sequence number for elimination purposes. =20 We still need to agree on the size and format of the sequence number =20 What will impact the calculation of the sequence number size are: =20 - the maximum sustained DetNet flow BW - the minimum average packet size of a DetNet flow - the maximum lifetime of an errant packet =20 My guesstimate is that we need to allow for a sustained BW of 1 Tbs, = that the average packet size is less that 1500 bytes and that the life time of an errant packet is at least 500 ms. =20 But we obviously need better answers than that to be able to calculate = the sequence number size we med. =20 Any takers?? =20 /Loa =20 =20 =20 On 2018-01-20 02:36, Andrew G. Malis wrote: Loa, You=E2=80=99re right, we do need to think about the maximum lifetime of = an errant packet in the network as well, thanks for that. You=E2=80=99re also correct that we need to define what=E2=80=99s = optimal for DETNET, however we do have a charter constraint. To quote = Lou=E2=80=99s recent email, "We are not expected to come up with new = encapsulations, but rather how DetNet uses what exists today. =E2=80=9C. = So we can=E2=80=99t be TOO creative ... I=E2=80=99m really interested to hear what other people have to say = about the upper limit of flow BW that DetNet needs to support, and I = also made an assumption in my math that an average DetNet packet (at = least for a very large flow) would be 1500 bytes. Do we have consensus = on that as well? That also has implications for the sequence number = length. Cheers, Andy On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 11:29 AM, Loa Andersson > wrote: Andy, On 2018-01-19 20:25, Andrew G. Malis wrote: Loa, We really don=E2=80=99t need a =E2=80=9CD=E2=80=9D bit, as we can = allocate a PW type to indicate that this is a DetNet PW, plus the context of the label can identify its use for a DetNet PW/flow. Fine, however we have at least diverging opinions, that both say that we should not use PWs - first we have people that believe that we should use EVPN instead - second there are people that say that we should define what is necessary for DetNet and then specify that independent of EVPN and PWs We need a consensus on that before we can start the design according = to one or the other of those paradigms. We DO need the first nibble to be zero. But beyond that, we are free to use all 28 bits as a sequence number, if there=E2=80=99s = no need for either flags or PW-layer fragmentation, which would require two bits. The key to determine the required number of bits in the sequence number is to determine, for the maximum expected rate of a DetNet flow, how long will it take to wrap around? Isn't that only part of the truth? We are not concerned only by the fact that the source might sue the same sequence number again, but that a struggling packet might show up at a point in the network where a wrap around just happened. For example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would reasonably equate to 833K pps, assuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap around in a little over one second with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with a 27-bit sequence number would wrap around in about 1 second. All that said, a second is a very long holding time for flows with constrained latency, so we could probably take two bits off those numbers and still be OK (wrap around in 250 ms). So 25 bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 bits gives us room for further BW growth in the future, approaching 1Tbps. I think that we need to design for Tbps (or worse), but that is = another thing we need consensus on before starting to specify. /Loa Cheers, Andy _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org =20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet =20 --=20 =20 =20 Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu = Senior MPLS Expert Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 =20 _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org =20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet =20 _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org =20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet =20 _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org =20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0290_01D393BA.8DE19E10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The current architecture = does not prohibit deployment models where PREF takes place at the = ingress/egress only. We need a solution for rings and ladders = =C2=A0where every node basically can participate = PREF.

 

-          = Jouni

 

From: Stewart Bryant = [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 22, = 2018 18:53 PM
To: Jouni <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; = 'Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A' <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; 'Lou Berger' = <lberger@labn.net>; 'Loa Andersson' = <loa@pi.nu>
Cc: 'DetNet WG' <detnet@ietf.org>; = 'Andrew G. Malis' <agmalis@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: = [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence = Numbering)

 

 

Which is why I keep = saying that checking is a system egress function.

- = Stewart

On 22/01/2018 15:43, = Jouni wrote:

 

The point 2 is exactly = what I wanted to stress during the interim call.  E.g., the bitmaps = to keep track for packet history window quickly become an issue in a = multiport chips. These are high speed lookups so off-chip ram is not = typically an option. Anyway, the window size is an implementation/cost = matter..

 

-          = Jouni

 

From: Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A [mailto:balazs.a.varga@ericsso= n.com]
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 16:41 = PM
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>; Jouni <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>= ; Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
Cc: DetNet WG = <detnet@ietf.org>; Andrew = G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Sub= ject: RE: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence = Numbering)

 

Hi,

 

I would like to = highlight two aspects to S/N size calculations:

 

1, Path delay = differences.

We use the S/N to identify duplicates at = =E2=80=9Cpath merging points=E2=80=9D (where Duplicate =

Elimination functions resides in the = network).

 

So what really = matters is the delay difference of the paths. And the = =E2=80=9Cwindow=E2=80=9D size

we use at the = Elimination point (see next point). So if the path difference is e.g., =

10 ms than we need a window size to be able = to cope with packets received

during that time = period.

 

I think path = differences should be well below 1 sec. In many use-cases even 1 ms =

is too much.

 

2, Window size (used = for S/N comparison)

The other constraint we should consider more = is how big window size the chips

are able to deal = with. It is a story e.g., about memory =E2=80=A6

 

Cheers

Bala=E2=80=99zs

 

From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] =
Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 22. 15:17
To: Jouni <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; = Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
Cc: DetNet WG = <detnet@ietf.org>; Andrew = G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>; Bal=C3=A1zs = Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence = Numbering)

 

Jouni,

 &= nbsp;  I may be off but isn't sequence number independent per = flow?  So it's not the max link speed that's critical, but rather = the max flow size, right? 

Certainly link speed = provides an upper bound on a single flow, and there are certainly some = use cases where a single flow will consume even the biggest link, but my = experience is that such flows *always* use large packets.  In any = case, I (personally, no hat) don't see this as the common case nor = *necessarily* the required *initial* detnet solution.

Also, I ran sum numbers for bits needed for 1sec at = different frame sizes.  25 bits looks sufficient for almost all = flows, and is only insufficient for 4 smaller frame sizes at 400G and = 1T. So in either case (flows or links)  28 bits  more than = sufficient.

Lou

Hopefully this looks = okay...

bits needed

64 BPkt

 128 BPkt

 256 BPkt

 512 BPkt

 1514 BPkt

 4096 BPkt

 9216 BPkt

10M

14

13

12

11

10

8

7

1G

21

20

19

18

16

15

14

100G

27

26

25

24

23

22

20

400G

29

28

27

26

25

24

22

1T

30

30

29

28

26

25

24

 

 
Quick and dirty calculation with 1500 octet packet (+ ethernet =
overhead of 42 octets) at 400Gb/s link a 25 bit SN is able to hold more =
than 1 sec of traffic. With 256 octet packet 1 sec would need 28 bit =
SN.
1Tb/s with 512 octet packet (+ethernet =
overhead) for 1 sec would need 28 bit SN. This is based on the =
calculation how many packets you are able to inject within a given time =
constraint.  I do not consider here yet how you would find out a =
late packet based on the SN i.e., whether you need to reserve half of =
the SN space for =E2=80=9Cin window=E2=80=9D packets or some other =
amount like 10%. Anyway, it is still _early_ in Sunday morning so =
tolerate errors..
 
To me =
28 bits seems to be plenty.. and a single on-wire format is simple =
(assuming the actual SN bits are defined by the CP or =
config).
 
- =
Jouni
 
 <=
/pre>
On =
21 Jan 2018, at 08:28, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu> =
wrote:
 
Andy, =
all,
 
(I thought I sent =
a response to this, but it never did show up, so re-sending. Apologize =
if there are =
duplicates).
 
So we all =
agree that we need the sequence number for =
elimination
purposes.
 
We still need to agree on the size and format of the =
sequence number
 
What =
will impact the calculation of the sequence number size =
are:
 
- the maximum =
sustained DetNet flow BW
- the minimum average =
packet size of a DetNet flow
- the maximum lifetime =
of an errant packet
 
My =
guesstimate is that we need to allow for a sustained BW of 1 Tbs, that =
the average packet size is less that 1500 bytes and that the =
life
time of an errant packet is at least 500 =
ms.
 
But we obviously =
need better answers than that to be able to calculate the sequence =
number size we med.
 
Any =
takers??
 
/Loa=

 
 
 =

On 2018-01-20 02:36, Andrew G. Malis =
wrote:
Loa,
=

You=E2=80=99re right, we do need to think about the maximum =
lifetime of an errant packet in the network as well, thanks for =
that.
You=E2=80=99re also correct that we need to =
define what=E2=80=99s optimal for DETNET, however we do have a charter =
constraint. To quote Lou=E2=80=99s recent email, "We are not =
expected to come up with new encapsulations, but rather how DetNet uses =
what exists today. =E2=80=9C. So we can=E2=80=99t be TOO creative =
...
I=E2=80=99m really interested to hear what =
other people have to say about the upper limit of flow BW that DetNet =
needs to support, and I also made an assumption in my math that an =
average DetNet packet (at least for a very large flow) would be 1500 =
bytes. Do we have consensus on that as well? That also has implications =
for the sequence number =
length.
Cheers,
Andy=

On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 11:29 AM, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu>> =
wrote:
  =
 Andy,
   On 2018-01-19 20:25, =
Andrew G. Malis =
wrote:
       =
Loa,
       We really =
don=E2=80=99t need a =E2=80=9CD=E2=80=9D bit, as we can allocate a PW =
type to
       =
indicate that this is a DetNet PW, plus the context of the =
label
       can =
identify its use for a DetNet PW/flow.
   =
Fine, however we have at least diverging opinions, that both =
say
   that we should not use =
PWs
   - first we have people that =
believe that we should use EVPN =
instead
   - second there are people that =
say that we should define what =
is
      necessary for =
DetNet and then specify that independent of =
EVPN
   and =
PWs
   We need a consensus on that before =
we can start the design according to
   =
one or the other of those =
paradigms.
       We =
DO need the first nibble to be zero. But beyond that, we =
are
       free to =
use all 28 bits as a sequence number, if there=E2=80=99s no =
need
       for =
either flags or PW-layer fragmentation, which would =
require
       two =
bits.
       The key =
to determine the required number of bits in the =
sequence
       =
number is to determine, for the maximum expected rate of =
a
       DetNet flow, =
how long will it take to wrap around?
   =
Isn't that only part of the truth? We are not concerned only by =
the
   fact that the source might sue the =
same sequence number again, but
   that a =
struggling packet might show up at a point in the =
network
   where a =
wrap
   around just =
happened.
       For =
example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would reasonably equate =
to
       833K pps, =
assuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap around =
in
       a little =
over one second with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with =
a
       27-bit =
sequence number would wrap around in about 1 =
second.
       All =
that said, a second is a very long holding time for =
flows
       with =
constrained latency, so we could probably take two bits =
off
       those =
numbers and still be OK (wrap around in 250 =
ms).
       So 25 =
bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 =
bits
       gives us =
room for further BW growth in the future, =
approaching
       =
1Tbps.
   I think that we need to design =
for Tbps (or worse), but that is =
another
   thing we need consensus on =
before starting to specify.
   =
/Loa
       =
Cheers,
       =
Andy
_______________________________________________=

detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
=
https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/detnet
 
-- =

 
 
=

Loa =
Andersson          &nbs=
p;            =
; email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS =
Expert
Huawei Technologies =
(consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 =
64
 
_____________________=
__________________________
detnet mailing =
list
detnet@ietf.org
=
https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/detnet
 
_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
=
https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 




____________________=
___________________________
detnet mailing =
list
detnet@ietf.org
=
https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 

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[213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 7sm9018454wmq.42.2018.01.22.10.14.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Jan 2018 10:14:02 -0800 (PST) To: Jouni , =?UTF-8?Q?'Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A'?= , 'Lou Berger' , 'Loa Andersson' Cc: 'DetNet WG' , "'Andrew G. Malis'" References: <7bf069e6-2727-6d55-7247-58b515f71424@pi.nu> <1113ebaf-1477-59e9-982b-d14c0dbb5c79@pi.nu> <7A27B52F-B693-4C60-B963-E143BFFBFFC3@gmail.com> <2ddcd1a6-0f42-4f73-7e0b-2bbb778d7181@labn.net> <010301d39397$b2891770$179b4650$@gmail.com> <6af825df-2794-90b3-c32f-86d23ffb1e79@gmail.com> <028f01d393a9$ca51a220$5ef4e660$@gmail.com> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <92e18ee1-514c-890f-5bd7-da0dbf162c99@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:14:00 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <028f01d393a9$ca51a220$5ef4e660$@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------7D2FF4D42975B3B8285811F9" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:14:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7D2FF4D42975B3B8285811F9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit No, I meant that in as far as we have them, the equipment model should be ingress rep, egress elim. - Stewart On 22/01/2018 17:52, Jouni wrote: > > The current architecture does not prohibit deployment models where > PREF takes place at the ingress/egress only. We need a solution for > rings and ladders  where every node basically can participate PREF. > > -Jouni > > *From:*Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Monday, January 22, 2018 18:53 PM > *To:* Jouni ; 'Balázs Varga A' > ; 'Lou Berger' ; 'Loa > Andersson' > *Cc:* 'DetNet WG' ; 'Andrew G. Malis' > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > > Which is why I keep saying that checking is a system egress function. > > - Stewart > > On 22/01/2018 15:43, Jouni wrote: > > The point 2 is exactly what I wanted to stress during the interim > call.  E.g., the bitmaps to keep track for packet history window > quickly become an issue in a multiport chips. These are high speed > lookups so off-chip ram is not typically an option. Anyway, the > window size is an implementation/cost matter.. > > -Jouni > > *From:*Balázs Varga A [mailto:balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com] > *Sent:* Monday, January 22, 2018 16:41 PM > *To:* Lou Berger ; > Jouni ; > Loa Andersson > *Cc:* DetNet WG ; Andrew > G. Malis > *Subject:* RE: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > > Hi, > > I would like to highlight two aspects to S/N size calculations: > > 1, Path delay differences. > > We use the S/N to identify duplicates at “path merging points” > (where Duplicate > > Elimination functions resides in the network). > > So what really matters is the delay difference of the paths. And > the “window” size > > we use at the Elimination point (see next point). So if the path > difference is e.g., > > 10 ms than we need a window size to be able to cope with packets > received > > during that time period. > > I think path differences should be well below 1 sec. In many > use-cases even 1 ms > > is too much. > > 2, Window size (used for S/N comparison) > > The other constraint we should consider more is how big window > size the chips > > are able to deal with. It is a story e.g., about memory … > > Cheers > > Bala’zs > > *From:*Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] > *Sent:* 2018. január 22. 15:17 > *To:* Jouni >; Loa Andersson > > *Cc:* DetNet WG >; Andrew > G. Malis >; Balázs > Varga A > > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) > > Jouni, > >     I may be off but isn't sequence number independent per flow?  > So it's not the max link speed that's critical, but rather the max > flow size, right? > > Certainly link speed provides an upper bound on a single flow, and > there are certainly some use cases where a single flow will > consume even the biggest link, but my experience is that such > flows *always* use large packets.  In any case, I (personally, no > hat) don't see this as the common case nor *necessarily* the > required *initial* detnet solution. > > Also, I ran sum numbers for bits needed for 1sec at different > frame sizes.  25 bits looks sufficient for almost all flows, and > is only insufficient for 4 smaller frame sizes at 400G and 1T. So > in either case (flows or links)  28 bits  more than sufficient. > > Lou > > Hopefully this looks okay... > > bits needed > > > > 64 BPkt > > > >  128 BPkt > > > >  256 BPkt > > > >  512 BPkt > > > >  1514 BPkt > > > >  4096 BPkt > > > >  9216 BPkt > > 10M > > > > 14 > > > > 13 > > > > 12 > > > > 11 > > > > 10 > > > > 8 > > > > 7 > > 1G > > > > 21 > > > > 20 > > > > 19 > > > > 18 > > > > 16 > > > > 15 > > > > 14 > > 100G > > > > 27 > > > > 26 > > > > 25 > > > > 24 > > > > 23 > > > > 22 > > > > 20 > > 400G > > > > 29 > > > > 28 > > > > 27 > > > > 26 > > > > 25 > > > > 24 > > > > 22 > > 1T > > > > 30 > > > > 30 > > > > 29 > > > > 28 > > > > 26 > > > > 25 > > > > 24 > > On 1/21/2018 4:43 AM, Jouni wrote: > > > > Quick and dirty calculation with 1500 octet packet (+ ethernet overhead of 42 octets) at 400Gb/s link a 25 bit SN is able to hold more than 1 sec of traffic. With 256 octet packet 1 sec would need 28 bit SN. > > 1Tb/s with 512 octet packet (+ethernet overhead) for 1 sec would need 28 bit SN. This is based on the calculation how many packets you are able to inject within a given time constraint.  I do not consider here yet how you would find out a late packet based on the SN i.e., whether you need to reserve half of the SN space for “in window” packets or some other amount like 10%. Anyway, it is still _early_ in Sunday morning so tolerate errors.. > > > > To me 28 bits seems to be plenty.. and a single on-wire format is simple (assuming the actual SN bits are defined by the CP or config). > > > > - Jouni > > > > > > On 21 Jan 2018, at 08:28, Loa Andersson wrote: > > > > Andy, all, > > > > (I thought I sent a response to this, but it never did show up, so re-sending. Apologize if there are duplicates). > > > > So we all agree that we need the sequence number for elimination > > purposes. > > > > We still need to agree on the size and format of the sequence number > > > > What will impact the calculation of the sequence number size are: > > > > - the maximum sustained DetNet flow BW > > - the minimum average packet size of a DetNet flow > > - the maximum lifetime of an errant packet > > > > My guesstimate is that we need to allow for a sustained BW of 1 Tbs, that the average packet size is less that 1500 bytes and that the life > > time of an errant packet is at least 500 ms. > > > > But we obviously need better answers than that to be able to calculate the sequence number size we med. > > > > Any takers?? > > > > /Loa > > > > > > > > On 2018-01-20 02:36, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > Loa, > > You’re right, we do need to think about the maximum lifetime of an errant packet in the network as well, thanks for that. > > You’re also correct that we need to define what’s optimal for DETNET, however we do have a charter constraint. To quote Lou’s recent email, "We are not expected to come up with new encapsulations, but rather how DetNet uses what exists today. “. So we can’t be TOO creative ... > > I’m really interested to hear what other people have to say about the upper limit of flow BW that DetNet needs to support, and I also made an assumption in my math that an average DetNet packet (at least for a very large flow) would be 1500 bytes. Do we have consensus on that as well? That also has implications for the sequence number length. > > Cheers, > > Andy > > On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 11:29 AM, Loa Andersson > wrote: > >    Andy, > >    On 2018-01-19 20:25, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > >        Loa, > >        We really don’t need a “D” bit, as we can allocate a PW type to > >        indicate that this is a DetNet PW, plus the context of the label > >        can identify its use for a DetNet PW/flow. > >    Fine, however we have at least diverging opinions, that both say > >    that we should not use PWs > >    - first we have people that believe that we should use EVPN instead > >    - second there are people that say that we should define what is > >       necessary for DetNet and then specify that independent of EVPN > >    and PWs > >    We need a consensus on that before we can start the design according to > >    one or the other of those paradigms. > >        We DO need the first nibble to be zero. But beyond that, we are > >        free to use all 28 bits as a sequence number, if there’s no need > >        for either flags or PW-layer fragmentation, which would require > >        two bits. > >        The key to determine the required number of bits in the sequence > >        number is to determine, for the maximum expected rate of a > >        DetNet flow, how long will it take to wrap around? > >    Isn't that only part of the truth? We are not concerned only by the > >    fact that the source might sue the same sequence number again, but > >    that a struggling packet might show up at a point in the network > >    where a wrap > >    around just happened. > >        For example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would reasonably equate to > >        833K pps, assuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap around in > >        a little over one second with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with a > >        27-bit sequence number would wrap around in about 1 second. > >        All that said, a second is a very long holding time for flows > >        with constrained latency, so we could probably take two bits off > >        those numbers and still be OK (wrap around in 250 ms). > >        So 25 bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 bits > >        gives us room for further BW growth in the future, approaching > >        1Tbps. > >    I think that we need to design for Tbps (or worse), but that is another > >    thing we need consensus on before starting to specify. > >    /Loa > >        Cheers, > >        Andy > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > -- > > > > > > Loa Andersson                        email:loa@pi.nu > > Senior MPLS Expert > > Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --------------7D2FF4D42975B3B8285811F9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

No, I meant that in as far as we have them, the equipment model should be ingress rep, egress elim.

- Stewart


On 22/01/2018 17:52, Jouni wrote:

The current architecture does not prohibit deployment models where PREF takes place at the ingress/egress only. We need a solution for rings and ladders  where every node basically can participate PREF.

 

-          Jouni

 

From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 18:53 PM
To: Jouni <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; 'Balázs Varga A' <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; 'Lou Berger' <lberger@labn.net>; 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>
Cc: 'DetNet WG' <detnet@ietf.org>; 'Andrew G. Malis' <agmalis@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

 

 

Which is why I keep saying that checking is a system egress function.

- Stewart

On 22/01/2018 15:43, Jouni wrote:

 

The point 2 is exactly what I wanted to stress during the interim call.  E.g., the bitmaps to keep track for packet history window quickly become an issue in a multiport chips. These are high speed lookups so off-chip ram is not typically an option. Anyway, the window size is an implementation/cost matter..

 

-          Jouni

 

From: Balázs Varga A [mailto:balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com]
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 16:41 PM
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>; Jouni <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

 

Hi,

 

I would like to highlight two aspects to S/N size calculations:

 

1, Path delay differences.

We use the S/N to identify duplicates at “path merging points” (where Duplicate

Elimination functions resides in the network).

 

So what really matters is the delay difference of the paths. And the “window” size

we use at the Elimination point (see next point). So if the path difference is e.g.,

10 ms than we need a window size to be able to cope with packets received

during that time period.

 

I think path differences should be well below 1 sec. In many use-cases even 1 ms

is too much.

 

2, Window size (used for S/N comparison)

The other constraint we should consider more is how big window size the chips

are able to deal with. It is a story e.g., about memory …

 

Cheers

Bala’zs

 

From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
Sent: 2018. január 22. 15:17
To: Jouni <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
Cc: DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>; Balázs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering)

 

Jouni,

    I may be off but isn't sequence number independent per flow?  So it's not the max link speed that's critical, but rather the max flow size, right? 

Certainly link speed provides an upper bound on a single flow, and there are certainly some use cases where a single flow will consume even the biggest link, but my experience is that such flows *always* use large packets.  In any case, I (personally, no hat) don't see this as the common case nor *necessarily* the required *initial* detnet solution.

Also, I ran sum numbers for bits needed for 1sec at different frame sizes.  25 bits looks sufficient for almost all flows, and is only insufficient for 4 smaller frame sizes at 400G and 1T. So in either case (flows or links)  28 bits  more than sufficient.

Lou

Hopefully this looks okay...

bits needed

64 BPkt

 128 BPkt

 256 BPkt

 512 BPkt

 1514 BPkt

 4096 BPkt

 9216 BPkt

10M

14

13

12

11

10

8

7

1G

21

20

19

18

16

15

14

100G

27

26

25

24

23

22

20

400G

29

28

27

26

25

24

22

1T

30

30

29

28

26

25

24

 

On 1/21/2018 4:43 AM, Jouni wrote:

 
Quick and dirty calculation with 1500 octet packet (+ ethernet overhead of 42 octets) at 400Gb/s link a 25 bit SN is able to hold more than 1 sec of traffic. With 256 octet packet 1 sec would need 28 bit SN.
1Tb/s with 512 octet packet (+ethernet overhead) for 1 sec would need 28 bit SN. This is based on the calculation how many packets you are able to inject within a given time constraint.  I do not consider here yet how you would find out a late packet based on the SN i.e., whether you need to reserve half of the SN space for “in window” packets or some other amount like 10%. Anyway, it is still _early_ in Sunday morning so tolerate errors..
 
To me 28 bits seems to be plenty.. and a single on-wire format is simple (assuming the actual SN bits are defined by the CP or config).
 
- Jouni
 
 
On 21 Jan 2018, at 08:28, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu> wrote:
 
Andy, all,
 
(I thought I sent a response to this, but it never did show up, so re-sending. Apologize if there are duplicates).
 
So we all agree that we need the sequence number for elimination
purposes.
 
We still need to agree on the size and format of the sequence number
 
What will impact the calculation of the sequence number size are:
 
- the maximum sustained DetNet flow BW
- the minimum average packet size of a DetNet flow
- the maximum lifetime of an errant packet
 
My guesstimate is that we need to allow for a sustained BW of 1 Tbs, that the average packet size is less that 1500 bytes and that the life
time of an errant packet is at least 500 ms.
 
But we obviously need better answers than that to be able to calculate the sequence number size we med.
 
Any takers??
 
/Loa
 
 
 
On 2018-01-20 02:36, Andrew G. Malis wrote:
Loa,
You’re right, we do need to think about the maximum lifetime of an errant packet in the network as well, thanks for that.
You’re also correct that we need to define what’s optimal for DETNET, however we do have a charter constraint. To quote Lou’s recent email, "We are not expected to come up with new encapsulations, but rather how DetNet uses what exists today. “. So we can’t be TOO creative ...
I’m really interested to hear what other people have to say about the upper limit of flow BW that DetNet needs to support, and I also made an assumption in my math that an average DetNet packet (at least for a very large flow) would be 1500 bytes. Do we have consensus on that as well? That also has implications for the sequence number length.
Cheers,
Andy
On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 11:29 AM, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu>> wrote:
   Andy,
   On 2018-01-19 20:25, Andrew G. Malis wrote:
       Loa,
       We really don’t need a “D” bit, as we can allocate a PW type to
       indicate that this is a DetNet PW, plus the context of the label
       can identify its use for a DetNet PW/flow.
   Fine, however we have at least diverging opinions, that both say
   that we should not use PWs
   - first we have people that believe that we should use EVPN instead
   - second there are people that say that we should define what is
      necessary for DetNet and then specify that independent of EVPN
   and PWs
   We need a consensus on that before we can start the design according to
   one or the other of those paradigms.
       We DO need the first nibble to be zero. But beyond that, we are
       free to use all 28 bits as a sequence number, if there’s no need
       for either flags or PW-layer fragmentation, which would require
       two bits.
       The key to determine the required number of bits in the sequence
       number is to determine, for the maximum expected rate of a
       DetNet flow, how long will it take to wrap around?
   Isn't that only part of the truth? We are not concerned only by the
   fact that the source might sue the same sequence number again, but
   that a struggling packet might show up at a point in the network
   where a wrap
   around just happened.
       For example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would reasonably equate to
       833K pps, assuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap around in
       a little over one second with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with a
       27-bit sequence number would wrap around in about 1 second.
       All that said, a second is a very long holding time for flows
       with constrained latency, so we could probably take two bits off
       those numbers and still be OK (wrap around in 250 ms).
       So 25 bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 bits
       gives us room for further BW growth in the future, approaching
       1Tbps.
   I think that we need to design for Tbps (or worse), but that is another
   thing we need consensus on before starting to specify.
   /Loa
       Cheers,
       Andy
_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
 
-- 
 
 
Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS Expert
Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64
 
_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
 
_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 




_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 


--------------7D2FF4D42975B3B8285811F9-- From nobody Mon Jan 22 12:53:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A9F712D77B for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 12:53:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F_QQyYpmiygY for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 12:53:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf0-x22f.google.com (mail-lf0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3D7B127337 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 12:53:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id t79so12305021lfe.3 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 12:53:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=ZoKzN+XcXqfWEUNvHHrCrDhAUodsic1pOTj0NcVn06k=; b=PoezxEUGcCwhIshdwcoom0O79drB/tXqwpudDNde2peHIIrm0k0FytPgq2KnZFjgHO MSi8Yc5OnewGNl6J+pbjQjAktZ2HrBrVNzZKpdatZHBqdyKz30ruM4kT9wQl3TAFzesH AZyXF9uIMSB5wjUjo57amaGj7T0gDddYogPHLZozN3b1vsQwsO/B7JlvIQ2SacFGl84q +TIvXE13deKMKlcwHjw0aJSWuZx6yMfsusMx6xT6IwJfe8muKVVoFYiHvmGLtojIZF50 Em33CfPIhm6ZyyhfUXH5jU1+UccEbEKxsgQDMAO0oRRwDGyAdnNvXWm8miRX9c7J0+pW CNlw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=ZoKzN+XcXqfWEUNvHHrCrDhAUodsic1pOTj0NcVn06k=; b=C+rF9PByGE0ihk9LVM21IAtT7ZHw84g+wOqUAxIdztwM9bI+R1Ih+xSCWNC3d5nWcd pQ5JMAIvtT3obXzQC6XibLoaAex8f5PuoGH8bM0Naue4MZA2klczwq/7enJYoGJu3Zu+ jUJPD2BtxQuxBFp/YYSKHQYtDBMq7RVa84QixZidzP34SyeNKYVKJuaXjOXnosCNwQ4M m+MDW212uBOk1dZizWi5TnpPvF31qw30i0SKRnuIQeRduwPoO1PEios58+ICh18K/RkV HYdLi6e3lsRE+yA5Cr3WhIyJg+x+QPqIXw21R2VB0195SaQva/dzQTXEs5VHTJWUfzuQ 88Ow== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytcqQ88tkaKhYxJw9xX9zwMojYpoR/sf3KPTvYjqZi4B2VPs+/Ge 3ec4Z2BoS7q1cXJR6+8kdHA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x225oPuTwRHyFCV4AEBs8I4t84C9yTKdmweL9I/pQY4pmNmcvnA3ZJpAhSDCtk/XWXhBVxlGu2w== X-Received: by 10.46.101.207 with SMTP id e76mr82978ljf.115.1516654386864; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 12:53:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from jounis-imac.home ([83.150.126.201]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g65sm308440ljg.94.2018.01.22.12.53.02 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Jan 2018 12:53:06 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Jouni In-Reply-To: <92e18ee1-514c-890f-5bd7-da0dbf162c99@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 22:52:42 +0200 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Varga_A?= , Lou Berger , Loa Andersson , DetNet WG , "Andrew G. Malis" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <83C0847F-889D-4CCE-B457-0D6634793F58@gmail.com> References: <7bf069e6-2727-6d55-7247-58b515f71424@pi.nu> <1113ebaf-1477-59e9-982b-d14c0dbb5c79@pi.nu> <7A27B52F-B693-4C60-B963-E143BFFBFFC3@gmail.com> <2ddcd1a6-0f42-4f73-7e0b-2bbb778d7181@labn.net> <010301d39397$b2891770$179b4650$@gmail.com> <6af825df-2794-90b3-c32f-86d23ffb1e79@gmail.com> <028f01d393a9$ca51a220$5ef4e660$@gmail.com> <92e18ee1-514c-890f-5bd7-da0dbf162c99@gmail.com> To: Stewart Bryant X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 20:53:12 -0000 Ah, right. Sorry for my confusion. - Jouni > On 22 Jan 2018, at 20:14, Stewart Bryant = wrote: >=20 > No, I meant that in as far as we have them, the equipment model should = be ingress rep, egress elim. >=20 > - Stewart >=20 >=20 > On 22/01/2018 17:52, Jouni wrote: >> The current architecture does not prohibit deployment models where = PREF takes place at the ingress/egress only. We need a solution for = rings and ladders where every node basically can participate PREF. >> =20 >> - Jouni >> =20 >> From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]=20 >> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 18:53 PM >> To: Jouni ; 'Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A' = ; 'Lou Berger' ; 'Loa = Andersson' >> Cc: 'DetNet WG' ; 'Andrew G. Malis' = >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) >> =20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Which is why I keep saying that checking is a system egress function. >>=20 >> - Stewart >>=20 >> On 22/01/2018 15:43, Jouni wrote: >> =20 >> The point 2 is exactly what I wanted to stress during the interim = call. E.g., the bitmaps to keep track for packet history window quickly = become an issue in a multiport chips. These are high speed lookups so = off-chip ram is not typically an option. Anyway, the window size is an = implementation/cost matter.. >> =20 >> - Jouni >> =20 >> From: Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A [mailto:balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com]=20 >> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 16:41 PM >> To: Lou Berger ; Jouni ; = Loa Andersson >> Cc: DetNet WG ; Andrew G. Malis >> Subject: RE: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) >> =20 >> Hi, >> =20 >> I would like to highlight two aspects to S/N size calculations:=20 >> =20 >> 1, Path delay differences. >> We use the S/N to identify duplicates at =E2=80=9Cpath merging = points=E2=80=9D (where Duplicate=20 >> Elimination functions resides in the network).=20 >> =20 >> So what really matters is the delay difference of the paths. And the = =E2=80=9Cwindow=E2=80=9D size=20 >> we use at the Elimination point (see next point). So if the path = difference is e.g.,=20 >> 10 ms than we need a window size to be able to cope with packets = received=20 >> during that time period. >> =20 >> I think path differences should be well below 1 sec. In many = use-cases even 1 ms=20 >> is too much. >> =20 >> 2, Window size (used for S/N comparison) >> The other constraint we should consider more is how big window size = the chips=20 >> are able to deal with. It is a story e.g., about memory =E2=80=A6 >> =20 >> Cheers >> Bala=E2=80=99zs >> =20 >> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]=20 >> Sent: 2018. janu=C3=A1r 22. 15:17 >> To: Jouni ; Loa Andersson >> Cc: DetNet WG ; Andrew G. Malis ; = Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) >> =20 >> Jouni, >>=20 >> I may be off but isn't sequence number independent per flow? So = it's not the max link speed that's critical, but rather the max flow = size, right? =20 >>=20 >> Certainly link speed provides an upper bound on a single flow, and = there are certainly some use cases where a single flow will consume even = the biggest link, but my experience is that such flows *always* use = large packets. In any case, I (personally, no hat) don't see this as = the common case nor *necessarily* the required *initial* detnet = solution. >>=20 >> Also, I ran sum numbers for bits needed for 1sec at different frame = sizes. 25 bits looks sufficient for almost all flows, and is only = insufficient for 4 smaller frame sizes at 400G and 1T. So in either case = (flows or links) 28 bits more than sufficient. >>=20 >> Lou >> Hopefully this looks okay... >>=20 >> bits needed >> 64 BPkt=20 >> 128 BPkt=20 >> 256 BPkt=20 >> 512 BPkt=20 >> 1514 BPkt=20 >> 4096 BPkt=20 >> 9216 BPkt=20 >> 10M >> 14 >> 13 >> 12 >> 11 >> 10 >> 8 >> 7 >> 1G >> 21 >> 20 >> 19 >> 18 >> 16 >> 15 >> 14 >> 100G >> 27 >> 26 >> 25 >> 24 >> 23 >> 22 >> 20 >> 400G >> 29 >> 28 >> 27 >> 26 >> 25 >> 24 >> 22 >> 1T >> 30 >> 30 >> 29 >> 28 >> 26 >> 25 >> 24 >> =20 >> On 1/21/2018 4:43 AM, Jouni wrote: >> =20 >> Quick and dirty calculation with 1500 octet packet (+ ethernet = overhead of 42 octets) at 400Gb/s link a 25 bit SN is able to hold more = than 1 sec of traffic. With 256 octet packet 1 sec would need 28 bit SN. >> 1Tb/s with 512 octet packet (+ethernet overhead) for 1 sec would need = 28 bit SN. This is based on the calculation how many packets you are = able to inject within a given time constraint. I do not consider here = yet how you would find out a late packet based on the SN i.e., whether = you need to reserve half of the SN space for =E2=80=9Cin window=E2=80=9D = packets or some other amount like 10%. Anyway, it is still _early_ in = Sunday morning so tolerate errors.. >> =20 >> To me 28 bits seems to be plenty.. and a single on-wire format is = simple (assuming the actual SN bits are defined by the CP or config). >> =20 >> - Jouni >> =20 >> =20 >> On 21 Jan 2018, at 08:28, Loa Andersson wrote: >> =20 >> Andy, all, >> =20 >> (I thought I sent a response to this, but it never did show up, so = re-sending. Apologize if there are duplicates). >> =20 >> So we all agree that we need the sequence number for elimination >> purposes. >> =20 >> We still need to agree on the size and format of the sequence number >> =20 >> What will impact the calculation of the sequence number size are: >> =20 >> - the maximum sustained DetNet flow BW >> - the minimum average packet size of a DetNet flow >> - the maximum lifetime of an errant packet >> =20 >> My guesstimate is that we need to allow for a sustained BW of 1 Tbs, = that the average packet size is less that 1500 bytes and that the life >> time of an errant packet is at least 500 ms. >> =20 >> But we obviously need better answers than that to be able to = calculate the sequence number size we med. >> =20 >> Any takers?? >> =20 >> /Loa >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> On 2018-01-20 02:36, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >> Loa, >> You=E2=80=99re right, we do need to think about the maximum lifetime = of an errant packet in the network as well, thanks for that. >> You=E2=80=99re also correct that we need to define what=E2=80=99s = optimal for DETNET, however we do have a charter constraint. To quote = Lou=E2=80=99s recent email, "We are not expected to come up with new = encapsulations, but rather how DetNet uses what exists today. =E2=80=9C. = So we can=E2=80=99t be TOO creative ... >> I=E2=80=99m really interested to hear what other people have to say = about the upper limit of flow BW that DetNet needs to support, and I = also made an assumption in my math that an average DetNet packet (at = least for a very large flow) would be 1500 bytes. Do we have consensus = on that as well? That also has implications for the sequence number = length. >> Cheers, >> Andy >> On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 11:29 AM, Loa Andersson > wrote: >> Andy, >> On 2018-01-19 20:25, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >> Loa, >> We really don=E2=80=99t need a =E2=80=9CD=E2=80=9D bit, as we = can allocate a PW type to >> indicate that this is a DetNet PW, plus the context of the = label >> can identify its use for a DetNet PW/flow. >> Fine, however we have at least diverging opinions, that both say >> that we should not use PWs >> - first we have people that believe that we should use EVPN = instead >> - second there are people that say that we should define what is >> necessary for DetNet and then specify that independent of EVPN >> and PWs >> We need a consensus on that before we can start the design = according to >> one or the other of those paradigms. >> We DO need the first nibble to be zero. But beyond that, we = are >> free to use all 28 bits as a sequence number, if there=E2=80=99s= no need >> for either flags or PW-layer fragmentation, which would = require >> two bits. >> The key to determine the required number of bits in the = sequence >> number is to determine, for the maximum expected rate of a >> DetNet flow, how long will it take to wrap around? >> Isn't that only part of the truth? We are not concerned only by = the >> fact that the source might sue the same sequence number again, but >> that a struggling packet might show up at a point in the network >> where a wrap >> around just happened. >> For example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would reasonably equate = to >> 833K pps, assuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap around = in >> a little over one second with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with a >> 27-bit sequence number would wrap around in about 1 second. >> All that said, a second is a very long holding time for flows >> with constrained latency, so we could probably take two bits = off >> those numbers and still be OK (wrap around in 250 ms). >> So 25 bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 bits >> gives us room for further BW growth in the future, approaching >> 1Tbps. >> I think that we need to design for Tbps (or worse), but that is = another >> thing we need consensus on before starting to specify. >> /Loa >> Cheers, >> Andy >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> =20 >> --=20 >> =20 >> =20 >> Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu >> Senior MPLS Expert >> Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> =20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> =20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Mon Jan 22 23:04:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A0B126CBF for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 23:04:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E9zlUD8pFddY for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 23:04:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 960E912DA05 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 23:04:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (unknown [119.94.167.186]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 21B651802AED; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 08:03:56 +0100 (CET) To: Lou Berger , Jouni Cc: DetNet WG , "Andrew G. Malis" , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= References: <7bf069e6-2727-6d55-7247-58b515f71424@pi.nu> <1113ebaf-1477-59e9-982b-d14c0dbb5c79@pi.nu> <7A27B52F-B693-4C60-B963-E143BFFBFFC3@gmail.com> <2ddcd1a6-0f42-4f73-7e0b-2bbb778d7181@labn.net> From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: <6102d009-f05f-5318-1e67-f17843f3d764@pi.nu> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 15:03:49 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2ddcd1a6-0f42-4f73-7e0b-2bbb778d7181@labn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Sequence Numbering) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 07:04:18 -0000 Lou, tnx, very useful! I've been looking around for a case that stresses the 28 bit sequence number, but can't really find one. 5G seems to require (aggregate) flows of something close to 400 Gbbs, but a 28 bit sequence number can support that. The only issue I have now is what Andy called "errant" packet, i.e. a packet that gets duplicated, where one or more copies takes fast paths and arrive to the elimination point well before wrap around, but where one or a few packets gets delayed such that the wrap around happens before they arrive to the elimination point. Anyone that cares to address this? /Loa On 2018-01-22 22:16, Lou Berger wrote: > Jouni, > >     I may be off but isn't sequence number independent per flow? So > it's not the max link speed that's critical, but rather the max flow > size, right? > > Certainly link speed provides an upper bound on a single flow, and there > are certainly some use cases where a single flow will consume even the > biggest link, but my experience is that such flows *always* use large > packets.  In any case, I (personally, no hat) don't see this as the > common case nor *necessarily* the required *initial* detnet solution. > > Also, I ran sum numbers for bits needed for 1sec at different frame > sizes.  25 bits looks sufficient for almost all flows, and is only > insufficient for 4 smaller frame sizes at 400G and 1T. So in either case > (flows or links)  28 bits  more than sufficient. > > Lou > > Hopefully this looks okay... > > bits needed 64 BPkt 128 BPkt 256 BPkt 512 BPkt 1514 BPkt 4096 BPkt 9216 > BPkt > 10M 14 13 12 11 10 8 7 > 1G 21 20 19 18 16 15 14 > 100G 27 26 25 24 23 22 20 > 400G 29 28 27 26 25 24 22 > 1T 30 30 29 28 26 25 24 > > > On 1/21/2018 4:43 AM, Jouni wrote: >> Quick and dirty calculation with 1500 octet packet (+ ethernet overhead of 42 octets) at 400Gb/s link a 25 bit SN is able to hold more than 1 sec of traffic. With 256 octet packet 1 sec would need 28 bit SN. >> 1Tb/s with 512 octet packet (+ethernet overhead) for 1 sec would need 28 bit SN. This is based on the calculation how many packets you are able to inject within a given time constraint. I do not consider here yet how you would find out a late packet based on the SN i.e., whether you need to reserve half of the SN space for “in window” packets or some other amount like 10%. Anyway, it is still _early_ in Sunday morning so tolerate errors.. >> >> To me 28 bits seems to be plenty.. and a single on-wire format is simple (assuming the actual SN bits are defined by the CP or config). >> >> - Jouni >> >> >>> On 21 Jan 2018, at 08:28, Loa Andersson wrote: >>> >>> Andy, all, >>> >>> (I thought I sent a response to this, but it never did show up, so re-sending. Apologize if there are duplicates). >>> >>> So we all agree that we need the sequence number for elimination >>> purposes. >>> >>> We still need to agree on the size and format of the sequence number >>> >>> What will impact the calculation of the sequence number size are: >>> >>> - the maximum sustained DetNet flow BW >>> - the minimum average packet size of a DetNet flow >>> - the maximum lifetime of an errant packet >>> >>> My guesstimate is that we need to allow for a sustained BW of 1 Tbs, that the average packet size is less that 1500 bytes and that the life >>> time of an errant packet is at least 500 ms. >>> >>> But we obviously need better answers than that to be able to calculate the sequence number size we med. >>> >>> Any takers?? >>> >>> /Loa >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2018-01-20 02:36, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >>>> Loa, >>>> You’re right, we do need to think about the maximum lifetime of an errant packet in the network as well, thanks for that. >>>> You’re also correct that we need to define what’s optimal for DETNET, however we do have a charter constraint. To quote Lou’s recent email, "We are not expected to come up with new encapsulations, but rather how DetNet uses what exists today. “. So we can’t be TOO creative ... >>>> I’m really interested to hear what other people have to say about the upper limit of flow BW that DetNet needs to support, and I also made an assumption in my math that an average DetNet packet (at least for a very large flow) would be 1500 bytes. Do we have consensus on that as well? That also has implications for the sequence number length. >>>> Cheers, >>>> Andy >>>> On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 11:29 AM, Loa Andersson > wrote: >>>> Andy, >>>> On 2018-01-19 20:25, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >>>> Loa, >>>> We really don’t need a “D” bit, as we can allocate a PW type to >>>> indicate that this is a DetNet PW, plus the context of the label >>>> can identify its use for a DetNet PW/flow. >>>> Fine, however we have at least diverging opinions, that both say >>>> that we should not use PWs >>>> - first we have people that believe that we should use EVPN instead >>>> - second there are people that say that we should define what is >>>> necessary for DetNet and then specify that independent of EVPN >>>> and PWs >>>> We need a consensus on that before we can start the design according to >>>> one or the other of those paradigms. >>>> We DO need the first nibble to be zero. But beyond that, we are >>>> free to use all 28 bits as a sequence number, if there’s no need >>>> for either flags or PW-layer fragmentation, which would require >>>> two bits. >>>> The key to determine the required number of bits in the sequence >>>> number is to determine, for the maximum expected rate of a >>>> DetNet flow, how long will it take to wrap around? >>>> Isn't that only part of the truth? We are not concerned only by the >>>> fact that the source might sue the same sequence number again, but >>>> that a struggling packet might show up at a point in the network >>>> where a wrap >>>> around just happened. >>>> For example, for a 10Gbps flow, that would reasonably equate to >>>> 833K pps, assuming 1500-byte packets. This would wrap around in >>>> a little over one second with 20 bits. A 100 Gbps flow with a >>>> 27-bit sequence number would wrap around in about 1 second. >>>> All that said, a second is a very long holding time for flows >>>> with constrained latency, so we could probably take two bits off >>>> those numbers and still be OK (wrap around in 250 ms). >>>> So 25 bits is probably sufficient, at least for today. 28 bits >>>> gives us room for further BW growth in the future, approaching >>>> 1Tbps. >>>> I think that we need to design for Tbps (or worse), but that is another >>>> thing we need consensus on before starting to specify. >>>> /Loa >>>> Cheers, >>>> Andy >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> detnet mailing list >>>> detnet@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>> -- >>> >>> >>> Loa Andersson email:loa@pi.nu >>> Senior MPLS Expert >>> Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > -- Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu Senior MPLS Expert Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Tue Jan 23 03:13:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCFE61201F2 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 03:13:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SEZnbDwMT1nl for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 03:13:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D9F21200E5 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 03:13:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (unknown [119.94.167.186]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4D5F11801559; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 11:57:18 +0100 (CET) To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= , Stewart Bryant , "Andrew G. Malis" Cc: DetNet WG References: <9d8fab9f-b5dd-6df0-1463-1c0eb63e8cdc@gmail.com> <0d8009f1-ca85-6a4e-aea1-795421a9829b@gmail.com> <08d88b55-c78e-a1c8-5f3c-a46d2160f5f9@pi.nu> From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 18:57:12 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 11:13:14 -0000 Balazs, Yes I understand your point, what I tried to sat (a bit glibly) is that find true P-nodes is not that easy. Most nodes have some edge functionality anyway. /Loa On 2018-01-22 22:25, Balázs Varga A wrote: > Hi Loa, > I think this case is rather different. The "Packet Ordering" function > is rather specific and You need the right order only at the egress. > Cheers > Bala'zs > > -----Original Message----- > From: Loa Andersson [mailto:loa@pi.nu] > Sent: 2018. január 22. 14:12 > To: Stewart Bryant ; Balázs Varga A ; Andrew G. Malis > Cc: DetNet WG > Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) > > Stewart, > > On 2018-01-22 18:42, Stewart Bryant wrote: >> >> >> On 19/01/2018 09:09, Balázs Varga A wrote: >>> >>> Also during the Elimination >>> >>> we can simple concentrate on duplicate detection and out-source >>> in-order delivery to DN4. >>> >> >> In the middle of the network it may be sufficient to do approximate >> duplication detection. That is to say delete a packet if it has the >> same s/n as its predecessor (may be with a very tiny window) and let >> the egress do anything more complex. > > This has been tried before, but if I remember correctly. there turned out to be very few true P nodes. > > /Loa >> >> - Stewart >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> > -- Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu Senior MPLS Expert Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Tue Jan 23 03:26:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B629120227 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 03:26:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JMDXYAtLsVAT for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 03:26:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr0-x22e.google.com (mail-wr0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D036A1200E5 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 03:26:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id t16so146618wrc.10 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 03:26:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=PFinliraF44V0P8TYSS0gU5u0/MPiSpoDuqlx11EL+A=; b=fhT14Eb9NvW6BzcgA4qcP445NO4Oa+7vCgDy/4rko4yXPfw90dPzWC0d1wbz82Sn0t 6xDPlyYagnOcdi+7EQEm0LDkWB1aPNsotNxi4yWERoUU6qXlVLT3Swl79okiSwtEEe/0 JyjPMaZlVCxrlJ299MHxQo+OLpx7SPCc1tSGXvJWOX89IrkJkmxPXKKNxHnT7UvSEntr ZOjDPaKDiukBVqrnXzifeQN2ZvtSOpPGizCatdEbQ84P5pGniPUKis9oBwKTf3d5R+Rl IpVjoNQ7G4AQl2MgbfragWOMvCbTl06P0NFGPdZAvY/GPYN++yf88kkxeobc8vgjGQdy QLDg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=PFinliraF44V0P8TYSS0gU5u0/MPiSpoDuqlx11EL+A=; b=VWA90aBo81+fJdENGW7TYMwtbhrw0UDvvWzkBm4Xi1TPuLqVtLeiU7CfU5r9a3R4T3 HkZd1280/Qlqy/o03SD7rl8VlGAl9NhjAt3mCZ4Ejqr51YatUAJdnB1m83Hb8Ry1baDu N4RP8t/IY++EuPGbo0RaTd4NN4ocoaujtbNNvq8XVRvGr3GQexpyvHEzCKtGG2ojPCwp JlM9mZh1pcfO2diJNr0vBg/h5OfyL1nJFsxbt4I3didc4htztSRD6MH6vRqpLcizRGxU 6E7r+t+t/qd1fTeb4PSPu8btOvnlji0Qbt6DYG8UeYmkwxgS7hyWMrQkdr2zSAv8rNRM u2sA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytde8NXVYz5oHhs9g/NdLkPB21DRdnynBsXIqkgpaXKncpPaARdT QNTxycF843FGBxi6h2T43bLiKc1S X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x2269t0Mn74MAJCG0hJWVsVJ4WZZ90AoVZ2IJNOWK5rL1xZUfLJ03bsIJkGfL3/dq94UyUI0dVw== X-Received: by 10.223.142.200 with SMTP id q66mr2165472wrb.267.1516706779135; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 03:26:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.126] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v80sm6901175wmv.17.2018.01.23.03.26.18 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Jan 2018 03:26:18 -0800 (PST) To: Loa Andersson , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= , "Andrew G. Malis" Cc: DetNet WG References: <9d8fab9f-b5dd-6df0-1463-1c0eb63e8cdc@gmail.com> <0d8009f1-ca85-6a4e-aea1-795421a9829b@gmail.com> <08d88b55-c78e-a1c8-5f3c-a46d2160f5f9@pi.nu> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <095462f4-2d17-5467-b165-5297cc994172@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 11:26:16 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 11:26:23 -0000 Loa, That used to be the case, but I am not so sure that it is still the case, mainly due to the cost of the linecards. If a node does have mixed functions egress is normally on a specialist line card, and so long at the duplicate deletion happens on the egress of that line card we have a single point of perfection where can de-duplicate. - Stewart On 23/01/2018 10:57, Loa Andersson wrote: > Balazs, > > Yes I understand your point, what I tried to sat (a bit glibly) is > that find true P-nodes is not that easy. Most nodes have some edge > functionality anyway. > > /Loa > > On 2018-01-22 22:25, Balázs Varga A wrote: >> Hi Loa, >> I think this case is rather different. The "Packet Ordering" function >> is rather specific and You need the right order only at the egress. >> Cheers >> Bala'zs >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Loa Andersson [mailto:loa@pi.nu] >> Sent: 2018. január 22. 14:12 >> To: Stewart Bryant ; Balázs Varga A >> ; Andrew G. Malis >> Cc: DetNet WG >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) >> >> Stewart, >> >> On 2018-01-22 18:42, Stewart Bryant wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 19/01/2018 09:09, Balázs Varga A wrote: >>>> >>>> Also during the Elimination >>>> >>>> we can simple concentrate on duplicate detection and out-source >>>> in-order delivery to DN4. >>>> >>> >>> In the middle of the network it may be sufficient to do approximate >>> duplication detection. That is to say delete a packet if it has the >>> same s/n as its predecessor (may be with a very tiny window) and let >>> the egress do anything more complex. >> >> This has been tried before, but if I remember correctly. there turned >> out to be very few true P nodes. >> >> /Loa >>> >>> - Stewart >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>> >> > From nobody Tue Jan 23 13:29:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26F9E12D837; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 13:29:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nap2IShos0ck; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 13:29:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB75A12D833; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 13:29:22 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-34dff700000037f2-ee-5a67a93030ad Received: from ESESSHC019.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.75]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 53.B3.14322.039A76A5; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 22:29:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from [100.94.50.35] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.77) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.352.0; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 22:29:20 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= To: CC: Message-ID: <54614021-6fa3-9a2c-1b44-ed0a8963df8e@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 22:29:20 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprGLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7t67hyvQog2vLeCx+f5rNYtH/39GB yWPJkp9MAYxRXDYpqTmZZalF+nYJXBlNf+8zFTRwV0xffIatgXEuZxcjJ4eEgInE/NuLmLoY uTiEBA4zSpx4uIINwlnFKPH1wxNmkCo2AXuJu5c2gNkiAqISJ6Z0soPYzAKyEif+LGMBsYUF PCTev7rNBmLzAtWferOCFcRmEVCV+D5rClANB4eoQIzE+r4EiBJBiZMzn7BAjLGQmDn/PCOE LS+x/e0csFVCAmoSn94+ZJ/AyDcLScssJC2zkLQsYGRexShanFpcnJtuZKSXWpSZXFycn6eX l1qyiREYWge3/LbawXjwueMhRgEORiUeXvaF6VFCrIllxZW5hxglOJiVRHjzWIFCvCmJlVWp RfnxRaU5qcWHGKU5WJTEeZ3SLKKEBNITS1KzU1MLUotgskwcnFINjO3tuz6t3eb2qev3DMtQ 1UdSyg/XCMVLFsbIHpbUCuM9kLRgXpr3zT6R3AsrWcR3cwQGLeDPyFXjTHno+oB706uTn962 bWWr9oj5JHv05MKymN/m9nacjHqTgrdNm8MYJT89USn6q59XRTbLt9J8m5evp37/c9H63ud7 36Zlq/utjGVm3Jdkr8RSnJFoqMVcVJwIADs97AkpAgAA Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Virtual interim on DetNet Data Plane - January 31, 1400-1600GMT X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 21:29:25 -0000 Dear All, We are planning to hold our second virtual interim to discuss the DetNet Data Plane document, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol. As an outcome of the first virtual interim and the discussions on the list, a new revision of draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol is expected before the second virtual interim. The intent is to continue working through open issues on the draft based on the new revision and where we left off at the first virtual interim [1] (based on IETF 100 [2] and [3]). The meeting will be held January 31 at 1400GMT. We are aiming for a 90 minute meeting, but are scheduling to allow 30 minutes of extra discussion time if needed. Webex details will be announced once available. The agenda is less formal than our normal meetings and is: - Administrativa (chairs) - Draft update - covering deltas and open issues (authors) - Open issues not addressed in draft (authors) - Plan for addressing open issues on the draft, including future meetings [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2018-detnet-01/session/detnet [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-detnet-3-detnet-data-plane-encapsulation-resolving-open-issues/ [3] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-detnet-3a-detnet-data-plane-encapsulation-resolving-open-issues-pref/ Thank you, DetNet WG Chairs From nobody Tue Jan 23 14:36:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04FC012D84E; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 14:36:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IESG Secretary To: "IETF-Announce" Cc: detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.69.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <151674697391.15662.8672137285018803028@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 14:36:13 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Deterministic Networking (detnet) WG Virtual Meeting: 2018-01-31 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 22:36:14 -0000 The Deterministic Networking (detnet) Working Group will hold a virtual interim meeting on 2018-01-31 from 14:00 to 16:00 UTC. We are planning to hold our second virtual interim to discuss the DetNet Data Plane document, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol. As an outcome of the first virtual interim and the discussions on the list, a new revision of draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol is expected before the second virtual interim. The intent is to continue working through open issues on the draft based on the new revision and where we left off at the first virtual interim [1] (based on IETF 100 [2] and [3]). The meeting will be held January 31 at 1400GMT. We are aiming for a 90 minute meeting, but are scheduling to allow 30 minutes of extra discussion time if needed. Webex details will be announced once available. The agenda is less formal than our normal meetings and is: - Administrativa (chairs) - Draft update - covering deltas and open issues (authors) - Open issues not addressed in draft (authors) - Plan for addressing open issues on the draft, including future meetings [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2018-detnet-01/session/detnet [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-detnet-3-detnet-data-plane-encapsulation-resolving-open-issues/ [3] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-detnet-3a-detnet-data-plane-encapsulation-resolving-open-issues-pref/ Information about remote participation: Webex details will be announced on the detnet@ietf.org list once available. From nobody Tue Jan 23 16:52:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B46012D88E for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 16:52:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LzbYbZdqs1KC for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 16:52:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4054B127241 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 16:52:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (unknown [119.94.167.186]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0175518013B2; Wed, 24 Jan 2018 01:52:46 +0100 (CET) To: Stewart Bryant , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= , "Andrew G. Malis" Cc: DetNet WG References: <9d8fab9f-b5dd-6df0-1463-1c0eb63e8cdc@gmail.com> <0d8009f1-ca85-6a4e-aea1-795421a9829b@gmail.com> <08d88b55-c78e-a1c8-5f3c-a46d2160f5f9@pi.nu> <095462f4-2d17-5467-b165-5297cc994172@gmail.com> From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: <49a05f03-375b-1d88-1a9b-be93ccee7a69@pi.nu> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 08:52:42 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <095462f4-2d17-5467-b165-5297cc994172@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 00:52:52 -0000 Stewart, Thanks, I'm aware of that trend, the only question is how much of "the old" situation actually remains in the deployed networks? /Loa On 2018-01-23 19:26, Stewart Bryant wrote: > Loa, > > That used to be the case, but I am not so sure that it is still the > case, mainly due to the cost of the linecards. > > If a node does have mixed functions egress is normally on a specialist > line card, and so long at the duplicate deletion happens on the egress > of that line card we have a single point of perfection where can > de-duplicate. > > - Stewart > > > On 23/01/2018 10:57, Loa Andersson wrote: >> Balazs, >> >> Yes I understand your point, what I tried to sat (a bit glibly) is >> that find true P-nodes is not that easy. Most nodes have some edge >> functionality anyway. >> >> /Loa >> >> On 2018-01-22 22:25, Balázs Varga A wrote: >>> Hi Loa, >>> I think this case is rather different. The "Packet Ordering" function >>> is rather specific and You need the right order only at the egress. >>> Cheers >>> Bala'zs >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Loa Andersson [mailto:loa@pi.nu] >>> Sent: 2018. január 22. 14:12 >>> To: Stewart Bryant ; Balázs Varga A >>> ; Andrew G. Malis >>> Cc: DetNet WG >>> Subject: Re: [Detnet] DP solution (Flow identification) >>> >>> Stewart, >>> >>> On 2018-01-22 18:42, Stewart Bryant wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On 19/01/2018 09:09, Balázs Varga A wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Also during the Elimination >>>>> >>>>> we can simple concentrate on duplicate detection and out-source >>>>> in-order delivery to DN4. >>>>> >>>> >>>> In the middle of the network it may be sufficient to do approximate >>>> duplication detection. That is to say delete a packet if it has the >>>> same s/n as its predecessor (may be with a very tiny window) and let >>>> the egress do anything more complex. >>> >>> This has been tried before, but if I remember correctly. there turned >>> out to be very few true P nodes. >>> >>> /Loa >>>> >>>> - Stewart >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> detnet mailing list >>>> detnet@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet -- Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu Senior MPLS Expert Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Thu Jan 25 04:00:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B466A128D2E for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 04:00:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.23 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.23 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1k0DSIO3-ZwH for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 04:00:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4C33127867 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 04:00:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 40AD7475C8163 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 12:00:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.49) by lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.47) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.361.1; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 12:00:53 +0000 Received: from DGGEML507-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.47]) by dggeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.49]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 20:00:47 +0800 From: Jiangyuanlong To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-detnet-ring-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHTlO7DREmLC2U0B0afrU2hFRAuwqOEfJxw Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 12:00:46 +0000 Message-ID: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68BBB6830A6@dggeml507-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.74.202.215] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-detnet-ring-00.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 12:00:58 -0000 Q29sbGVhZ3VlcywNCg0KV2Ugc3VibWl0dGVkIGFuIEktRCBmb2N1c2luZyBvbiBEZXRuZXQgaW4g UmluZy4gQ291bGQgeW91IHBsZWFzZSBoYXZlIGEgcmV2aWV3Pw0KWW91ciBvcGluaW9ucyBhcmUg dmVyeSB3ZWxjb21lLg0KDQpCZXN0IHJlZ2FyZHMsDQpZdWFubG9uZyBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2YgYWxs IGNvYXV0aG9ycw0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogaW50ZXJuZXQt ZHJhZnRzQGlldGYub3JnIFttYWlsdG86aW50ZXJuZXQtZHJhZnRzQGlldGYub3JnXSANClNlbnQ6 IFdlZG5lc2RheSwgSmFudWFyeSAyNCwgMjAxOCA0OjM5IFBNDQpUbzogQmFsYXpzIFZhcmdhOyBO b3JtYW4gRmlubjsgSmlhbmd5dWFubG9uZzsgTGlhbmcgR2VuZzsgSmVvbmctZG9uZyBSeW9vOyA0 YyA2Nw0KU3ViamVjdDogTmV3IFZlcnNpb24gTm90aWZpY2F0aW9uIGZvciBkcmFmdC1qaWFuZy1k ZXRuZXQtcmluZy0wMC50eHQNCg0KDQpBIG5ldyB2ZXJzaW9uIG9mIEktRCwgZHJhZnQtamlhbmct ZGV0bmV0LXJpbmctMDAudHh0IGhhcyBiZWVuIHN1Y2Nlc3NmdWxseSBzdWJtaXR0ZWQgYnkgWXVh bmxvbmcgSmlhbmcgYW5kIHBvc3RlZCB0byB0aGUgSUVURiByZXBvc2l0b3J5Lg0KDQpOYW1lOgkJ ZHJhZnQtamlhbmctZGV0bmV0LXJpbmcNClJldmlzaW9uOgkwMA0KVGl0bGU6CQlEZXRlcm1pbmlz dGljIE5ldHdvcmtpbmcgQXBwbGljYXRpb24gaW4gUmluZyBUb3BvbG9naWVzDQpEb2N1bWVudCBk YXRlOgkyMDE4LTAxLTI0DQpHcm91cDoJCUluZGl2aWR1YWwgU3VibWlzc2lvbg0KUGFnZXM6CQkx NQ0KVVJMOiAgICAgICAgICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL2ludGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0cy9k cmFmdC1qaWFuZy1kZXRuZXQtcmluZy0wMC50eHQNClN0YXR1czogICAgICAgICBodHRwczovL2Rh dGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9kcmFmdC1qaWFuZy1kZXRuZXQtcmluZy8NCkh0bWxpemVk OiAgICAgICBodHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtamlhbmctZGV0bmV0LXJp bmctMDANCkh0bWxpemVkOiAgICAgICBodHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9o dG1sL2RyYWZ0LWppYW5nLWRldG5ldC1yaW5nLTAwDQoNCg0KQWJzdHJhY3Q6DQogICBEZXRlcm1p bmlzdGljIE5ldHdvcmtpbmcgKERldE5ldCkgcHJvdmlkZXMgYSBjYXBhYmlsaXR5IHRvIGNhcnJ5 DQogICBkYXRhIGZsb3dzIGZvciByZWFsLXRpbWUgYXBwbGljYXRpb25zIHdpdGggZXh0cmVtZWx5 IGxvdyBkYXRhIGxvc3MNCiAgIHJhdGVzIGFuZCBib3VuZGVkIGxhdGVuY3kuIFRoaXMgZG9jdW1l bnQgZGVzY3JpYmVzIGhvdyBEZXROZXQgY2FuDQogICBiZSB1c2VkIGluIHJpbmcgdG9wb2xvZ2ll cyB0byBzdXBwb3J0IFBvaW50LXRvLVBvaW50IChQMlApIGFuZA0KICAgUG9pbnQtdG8tTXVsdGlw b2ludCAoUDJNUCkgcmVhbC10aW1lIHNlcnZpY2VzLg0KDQoNCg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgIA0KDQoNClBsZWFzZSBub3RlIHRoYXQgaXQgbWF5IHRha2UgYSBjb3VwbGUgb2YgbWlu dXRlcyBmcm9tIHRoZSB0aW1lIG9mIHN1Ym1pc3Npb24gdW50aWwgdGhlIGh0bWxpemVkIHZlcnNp b24gYW5kIGRpZmYgYXJlIGF2YWlsYWJsZSBhdCB0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy4NCg0KVGhlIElFVEYg U2VjcmV0YXJpYXQNCg0K From nobody Mon Jan 29 04:58:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE0012EB5E for ; 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b=bU58TEH+cZmMyWvxNeTyuTP2a8 s5v+p4JJkXEclLrgGZJuZRXMsvzDsbdhXJ7ChxJTfU9sOpwayj8epAGrk2hf8qYAIH494HDA2CMaX yIK4DmUosFEv8QdUd2orb9erV; Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:40382 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89_1) (envelope-from ) id 1eg8zc-000ReL-2w; Mon, 29 Jan 2018 05:57:00 -0700 To: DetNet WG From: Lou Berger Cc: DetNet Chairs Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 07:56:58 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B708032482B569489EB21F22" Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1eg8zc-000ReL-2w X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.86.101]:40382 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 22 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Agenda/webex info for upcoming interim X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 12:58:15 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B708032482B569489EB21F22 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi,     Data Tracker is broken, so I can't upload the following update: Agenda for DetNet Virtual Interim Meeting January 31, 2018 Session Information: Etherpad: http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-02 Meeting Materials: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2018-detnet-02/session/detnet Webex: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m1fa30c1b4f7ba72a66fc177633cb9a04 Dear All, We are planning to hold our second virtual interim to discuss the DetNet Data Plane document, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol. As an outcome of the first virtual interim and the discussions on the list, a new revision of draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol is expected before the second virtual interim. The intent is to continue working through open issues on the draft based on the new revision and where we left off at the first virtual interim [1] (based on IETF 100 [2] and [3]). The meeting will be held January 31 at 1400GMT. We are aiming for a 90 minute meeting, but are scheduling to allow 30 minutes of extra discussion time if needed. The agenda is less formal than our normal meetings and is: - Administrativa (chairs) - Draft [4] [5] update - covering deltas and open issues (authors) - Open issues not addressed in draft (authors) - Plan for addressing open issues on the draft, including future meetings [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2018-detnet-01/session/detnet [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-detnet-3-detnet-data-plane-encapsulation-resolving-open-issues/ [3] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-detnet-3a-detnet-data-plane-encapsulation-resolving-open-issues-pref/ [4] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol [5] https://github.com/jounikor/draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol --------------B708032482B569489EB21F22 Content-Type: text/calendar; name="WebEx_Meeting.ics" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="WebEx_Meeting.ics" BEGIN:VCALENDAR PRODID:-//Microsoft Corporation//Outlook 10.0 MIMEDIR//EN VERSION:2.0 METHOD:REQUEST BEGIN:VTIMEZONE TZID:Western European Time BEGIN:STANDARD DTSTART:20161001T030000 RRULE:FREQ=3DYEARLY;INTERVAL=3D1;BYDAY=3D-1SU;BYMONTH=3D10 TZOFFSETFROM:+0100 TZOFFSETTO:+0000 TZNAME:Standard Time END:STANDARD BEGIN:DAYLIGHT DTSTART:20160301T020000 RRULE:FREQ=3DYEARLY;INTERVAL=3D1;BYDAY=3D-1SU;BYMONTH=3D3 TZOFFSETFROM:+0000 TZOFFSETTO:+0100 TZNAME:Daylight Savings Time END:DAYLIGHT END:VTIMEZONE BEGIN:VEVENT ATTENDEE;CN=3D"DetNet Working Group";ROLE=3DREQ-PARTICIPANT;RSVP=3DFALSE:= MAILTO:detnet-chairs@ietf.org ORGANIZER;CN=3D"webex":MAILTO:messenger@webex.com DTSTART;TZID=3D"Western European Time":20180131T140000 DTEND;TZID=3D"Western European Time":20180131T160000 LOCATION:https://ietf.webex.com/ietf TRANSP:OPAQUE SEQUENCE:1517230505 UID:13892788-3da4-43a5-bc4c-f1294d16b175 DTSTAMP:20180131T140000Z DESCRIPTION:\n\nJOIN WEBEX MEETING\nhttps://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTI= D=3Dm5e612951825073543ebae5ee6fb4e81b\nMeeting number (access code): 641 = 421 890\nHost key: 613643\nMeeting password: dp-sol\n\n\n\nJOIN BY PHONE\= n1-877-668-4493 Call-in toll free number (US/Canada) \n1-650-479-3208 Cal= l-in toll number (US/Canada)\n\nToll-free dialing restrictions: \nhttps:/= /www.webex.com/pdf/tollfree_restrictions.pdf\n\n\n\nCan't join the meetin= g? 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SUMMARY:Agenda for DetNet Meeting January 31 PRIORITY:5 CLASS:PUBLIC BEGIN:VALARM TRIGGER:-PT5M ACTION:DISPLAY DESCRIPTION:Reminder END:VALARM END:VEVENT END:VCALENDAR --------------B708032482B569489EB21F22-- From nobody Mon Jan 29 15:00:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88F1F126D73; Mon, 29 Jan 2018 15:00:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.70.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <151726683443.27507.4335275519731951177@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 15:00:34 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-01.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 23:00:34 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking WG of the IETF. Title : DetNet Data Plane Encapsulation Authors : Jouni Korhonen Loa Andersson Yuanlong Jiang Norman Finn Balázs Varga Janos Farkas Carlos J. Bernardos Tal Mizrahi Lou Berger Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-01.txt Pages : 37 Date : 2018-01-29 Abstract: This document specifies Deterministic Networking data plane encapsulation solutions. The described data plane solutions can be applied over either IP or MPLS Packet Switched Networks. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jan 29 15:05:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87F2F12EB82 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2018 15:05:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FTLkUDSySCwG for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2018 15:05:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf0-x231.google.com (mail-lf0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B1D812EADE for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2018 15:05:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf0-x231.google.com with SMTP id 63so12465597lfv.4 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2018 15:05:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:thread-index:content-language; bh=+Dr3NKtnFyYxbSXS+fpun2gUvskN6MkTzP8/yvXaMqU=; b=HabTyT9a3+RoAUohBW9vF21HXzucyMRw6oIuX28MPuCtXGNjarU1tdEFWsNrD/ykHT iXkq5FUCeGXolFvwlbP2YJuQ4vfR2NTPSeOYgCo7EfGaW7rbYRlnLys+26aRqh8fYVXJ 4TX1FVDfyV/KK2ZOrsib/2eqr1KfIlUuTNU2OJGP6wq/4oXLWJKD8mQr8lPh75uZ4W8/ zW9jFWmjzMoRuBgrYWINpYNO+jgr+icZZpKLxe2p6ZruY0WUanXvZcuSpkDCBswlY8b+ m5ajg6CxlwdAZrST6AR6n5LI4pV75awg6qObwpR2xqCJ4JHk9nq7NPIqi/lVXFDl9Dwo vHjw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=+Dr3NKtnFyYxbSXS+fpun2gUvskN6MkTzP8/yvXaMqU=; b=fq3eH3kBC23yJn6OTj2W/Zjk6jYTF7Mjrqir6BbxhcAG2m+f/duXoleozTbEaSAidz 54Za3BAH92KIIkcR4RRJ36UCc433IfugLZvdJ9z3L9HX+RdYwZpxr2VhDqMkCP69JQn4 sQ2WpWarorRdKuhj9T8qI8QF+bFjj+KsMOOK0ZxLaH5+nMJ7+oy8w3E9hqj3EEBpakHq r//PeSs/pJVLQa3ZbQ2Ccn8SQaJrO3+4i/dh5cplVCGvvdtDUGfOu1ClvMMxCzS3urVS gwQCRNsgj96mzI8G17SjOSi7fycIICJkogyNJjDhgqCGLUeEu7PqD/6WvZW8hLFS/4WF qXfg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytd6jcNhy4Ak1hNxrG+9VDd/E6SfFwG6WslPbk8uSI+4/7jCErm0 8Yj5T6n5+XAtRe+czGIZankTgg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x224k3ejb2+C1/AtLoDL4cW1EB+m5mYUoj5PEm2qNomFk3gVR6Jk+o/XtwlW0954CNgxH7KBNlw== X-Received: by 10.25.199.208 with SMTP id x199mr15781502lff.77.1517267103241; Mon, 29 Jan 2018 15:05:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from JOKO ([83.150.126.201]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b4sm3131357lff.55.2018.01.29.15.05.02 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 29 Jan 2018 15:05:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Jouni" To: "'DetNet WG'" References: <151726683471.27507.12373717618852607689.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <151726683471.27507.12373717618852607689.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 01:05:01 +0200 Message-ID: <067601d39955$98063590$c812a0b0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQDz2MfYQi31ovAVDHkM9w11FesiMKVK+IpA Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-01.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 23:05:07 -0000 FYI.. this is the -01 of the draft where I left off (based on the = input/guidance I got and some of my own). The draft still has both MPLS = and IPv6 solutions in it as agreed in the last interim - now just = arranged for easier split of the solution documents. - Jouni -----Original Message----- From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 01:01 AM To: Carlos J. Bernardos ; Norman Finn = ; Tal Mizrahi ; Carlos = Bernardos ; Bal=C3=A1zs Varga = ; Janos Farkas ; = Balazs Varga ; Jouni Korhonen = ; Loa Andersson ; Lou Berger = ; Yuanlong Jiang Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-01.txt A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-01.txt has been = successfully submitted by Jouni Korhonen and posted to the IETF = repository. Name: draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol Revision: 01 Title: DetNet Data Plane Encapsulation Document date: 2018-01-29 Group: detnet Pages: 37 URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-01.txt Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-01 Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-01 Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-01 Abstract: This document specifies Deterministic Networking data plane encapsulation solutions. The described data plane solutions can be applied over either IP or MPLS Packet Switched Networks. = =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Wed Jan 31 05:56:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FBED131537 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2018 05:56:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 52iMGqRFxBcO for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2018 05:56:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy6-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy6-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [67.222.39.168]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02895131AF4 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2018 05:53:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw4 (unknown [10.0.90.85]) by gproxy6.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E2421E172A for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2018 06:30:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmgw4 with id 51Wf1x00D2SSUrH011WiPa; Wed, 31 Jan 2018 06:30:42 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=G85sK5s5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10 a=RgaUWeydRksA:10 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=NojvYFcnAAAA:8 a=NEAV23lmAAAA:8 a=prgRUYSthkdlO9f6OSEA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=9uUzcS5Nrb8A:10 a=gUXmQ8eWAGYA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:References:Cc:To:From:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=wofj+s5cb/uMacOuOHBtJNzp9e1xIJiiExNDwvzC23k=; b=igKLrKvyh9H6R9ISxmGTMmL3Du kuk8ae0jiew/MhWoNNzJFl01r2aHf07/WxepySIY8ePeowmDJVhjnP3FIwxoAacheXU1TswMvZbfs ZgZdqBFOMOExpM1aZ80YgEvbK; Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:43028 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89_1) (envelope-from ) id 1egsTH-000Yul-4w; Wed, 31 Jan 2018 06:30:39 -0700 From: Lou Berger To: DetNet WG Cc: DetNet Chairs References: Message-ID: <693aacab-cfe7-ca0a-6a72-e89b1c591be1@labn.net> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:30:36 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1egsTH-000Yul-4w X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.86.101]:43028 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 2 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Agenda/webex info for upcoming interim X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 13:56:17 -0000 Reminder interim meeting starting in about 30 min... On 1/29/2018 7:56 AM, Lou Berger wrote: > Hi, > >     Data Tracker is broken, so I can't upload the following update: > > Agenda for DetNet Virtual Interim Meeting January 31, 2018 > > Session Information: > > Etherpad: > http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-interim-2018-detnet-02 > Meeting Materials: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2018-detnet-02/session/detnet > Webex: > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m1fa30c1b4f7ba72a66fc177633cb9a04 > > Dear All, > > We are planning to hold our second virtual interim to discuss the DetNet > Data Plane document, > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol. As an outcome of > the first virtual interim and the discussions on the list, a new > revision of draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol is expected before the second > virtual interim. The intent is to continue working through open issues > on the draft based on the new revision and where we left off at the > first virtual interim [1] (based on IETF 100 [2] and [3]). > > The meeting will be held January 31 at 1400GMT. We are aiming for a 90 > minute meeting, but are scheduling to allow 30 minutes of extra > discussion time if needed. > > The agenda is less formal than our normal meetings and is: > - Administrativa (chairs) > - Draft [4] [5] update - covering deltas and open issues (authors) > - Open issues not addressed in draft (authors) > - Plan for addressing open issues on the draft, including future meetings > > [1] > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2018-detnet-01/session/detnet > > [2] > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-detnet-3-detnet-data-plane-encapsulation-resolving-open-issues/ > > [3] > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-detnet-3a-detnet-data-plane-encapsulation-resolving-open-issues-pref/ > > [4] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol > > [5] https://github.com/jounikor/draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet