From nobody Thu Nov 1 04:28:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 280A112777C; Thu, 1 Nov 2018 04:28:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EI0YO263LsTW; Thu, 1 Nov 2018 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x135.google.com (mail-lf1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1C58127148; Thu, 1 Nov 2018 04:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x135.google.com with SMTP id p86so11736996lfg.5; Thu, 01 Nov 2018 04:28:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nfAfhj/YSrIM0/5LQq1KuLmL9aOZjSJbwM9cHgqNsgU=; b=HdXphQBo77GPW4E0wOHiE6ADKaMm+OVA/nmZV+VEaTc8ppAf6tp7KMChJKow/Hqte8 J+Beauazbf4e4eMGQkrFSCFUmn4v2JFHy0xa+yGjSFz2OlaylSqDB8bkqnAtJbTpQeAv eJfhjKGk27C+zTZUIw6zjmJUT7QtKTrq1YOaOMAL0d3GWEvKIu7NopWwOslh8lloNQTf vT0LOOs3jKlrVhDDLnImeMYMWZz/slnl1QxeJGC14JAHF9AfGo1pFHryjS7bFfqbK/Lc CEPPoz9xjdEKddXZwz9653D5hdTZsGuxDidkZdXzqzGpDzAtEzorxyeKFB78cC6Z4Sv2 TsFQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nfAfhj/YSrIM0/5LQq1KuLmL9aOZjSJbwM9cHgqNsgU=; b=MnqXOXHpQDDuE+U8DeXruvbjpFfim5FAthhqqm/+q1MW+BEfmN5AFpibNhC5zSJ7x1 Mbe/oZ3NalATqRc+6KZWRSeQRQ+KObboptUcOWlUy7eBP3wxVfIbLsSEKjz3AZ/+r2a2 MG5FqHeiVJlULTvjCl2SuuVLe4tKfmHQRLQD9f+UpX0b+3eVqg1oLZVmVguV5iOKE3/6 ISzo9kZjpy1hSdskuaOFQBEhUSJuEz4+tpk74bn7JGFYf0eNxGD51wepiS+sf68sGdaA vAG65bCskHAx9SUdjny0gkxNrmIHenu8kxFYB0AnAjdkXuLqG+sqhHVrFwaDlp1PblBs oDoQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLZzUPJRarZzaPtq7BzWaMSbldP6E2QkV6p/atZOYaEOugnJ0SP ZkYdzn+qx6iU/QKPG17PHK9tqukAJhkZvsG+Xd8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5f8G3SCv5DUEP9lS8dCbNqVwXy3raZxF/We1Ln3DJWldb25vCDzs2tPzFa3ak8ozf8FSfr+muqxkFg5j97OMgM= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:41d8:: with SMTP id d24-v6mr3991842lfi.138.1541071725810; Thu, 01 Nov 2018 04:28:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154046016999.16330.646297723728540542.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5b05a230-95d1-0979-05a4-69d53b759b9a@gmail.com> <8367E97A-74C3-4E99-9575-F48BC8ACE2BE@cooperw.in> <152b46f5-4ac4-6449-536b-b8cb7ecf3d21@gmail.com> <8D147331-B24B-4D8D-AD59-FFBB726A879F@cooperw.in> In-Reply-To: <8D147331-B24B-4D8D-AD59-FFBB726A879F@cooperw.in> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 06:28:32 -0500 Message-ID: To: Alissa Cooper Cc: Stewart Bryant , "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" , The IESG , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "lberger@labn.net" , "draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ca59a1057998b8a0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-19: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2018 11:28:50 -0000 --000000000000ca59a1057998b8a0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Alissa, On Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 08:14 Alissa Cooper wrote: > > > > On Oct 29, 2018, at 1:41 PM, Stewart Bryant > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 29/10/2018 01:50, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > >> Without going back for a quote, he was basically saying he thought more > tgan one ABSTAIN was a pretty strong signal from the IESG that a document > should not be published. > > > > That was always my understanding when I was on the IESG. > > This does not match what is described at < > https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/iesg-ballots/>, which is the > guideline I follow. Informational documents require one Yes ballot with no > Discuss ballots. If we wanted to block publication, someone would need to > ballot Discuss, or we would all need to ballot something besides Yes, > including the sponsoring AD. > > When I filed my ballot, this document already had one Yes and five No > Objection ballot positions, so the implication that my Abstain was meant to > trigger some set of ballots that would block this document seems misplaced. > Sure. So my point isn't that ADs who do this are doing anything that's not allowed in the process (we have Discuss criteria, but no critera for Comments), but that we're surprising experienced IETF participants, including one of my most long-serving chairs, and one past two-term RTG AD (if I understand what Stewart is saying). Communication is a good thing, I learned in my second marriage ;-) ... Travel safely. Spencer Alissa > > > > > - Stewart > > > > > > --000000000000ca59a1057998b8a0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Alissa,

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 08:14 Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:


> On Oct 29, 2018, at 1:41 PM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@g= mail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 29/10/2018 01:50, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
>> Without going back for a quote, he was basically saying he thought= more tgan one ABSTAIN was a pretty strong signal from the IESG that a docu= ment should not be published.
>
> That was always my understanding when I was on the IESG.

This does not match what is described at <https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/iesg-ballots/>, which= is the guideline I follow. Informational documents require one Yes ballot = with no Discuss ballots. If we wanted to block publication, someone would n= eed to ballot Discuss, or we would all need to ballot something besides Yes= , including the sponsoring AD.

When I filed my ballot, this document already had one Yes and five No Objec= tion ballot positions, so the implication that my Abstain was meant to trig= ger some set of ballots that would block this document seems misplaced.
=

Sure= . So my point isn't that ADs who do this are doing anything that's = not allowed in the process (we have Discuss criteria, but no critera for Co= mments), but that we're surprising experienced IETF participants, inclu= ding one of my most long-serving chairs, and one past two-term RTG AD (if I= understand what Stewart is saying).

Communication is a good thing, I learned in my second marriage= ;-) ...

Travel safely.<= /div>

Spencer

Alissa

>
> - Stewart
>
>

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from MXHUB301.corp.emc.com (MXHUB301.corp.emc.com [10.146.3.27]) by mailusrhubprd51.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id wA41pUEi014320 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Nov 2018 21:51:30 -0400 Received: from MX307CL04.corp.emc.com ([fe80::849f:5da2:11b:4385]) by MXHUB301.corp.emc.com ([10.146.3.27]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Sat, 3 Nov 2018 21:51:30 -0400 To: Alissa Cooper , Spencer Dawkins at IETF Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-19: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHUbEYv36L9NKEPh0uqhNwdn5k9CaUyEACAgAACSYCAAP0MgIAAl92AgAIW8YCAAQnAAIAAFmYAgAAq6YCAAplzgIAFN0rw Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 01:51:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: <154046016999.16330.646297723728540542.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5b05a230-95d1-0979-05a4-69d53b759b9a@gmail.com> <8367E97A-74C3-4E99-9575-F48BC8ACE2BE@cooperw.in> <152b46f5-4ac4-6449-536b-b8cb7ecf3d21@gmail.com> 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Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-19: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2018 01:51:54 -0000 --_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D2432779493630329A51MX307CL04corpem_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SEkgQWxpc3NhLA0KDQpEZS1jbG9ha2luZyDigKYgSeKAmW0gdGhlIHBlcnNvbiB3aG9tIFNwZW5j ZXIgcmVmZXJyZWQgdG8gYXMg4oCcb25lIG9mIG91ciBtb3N0IGV4cGVyaWVuY2VkIFRTViBjaGFp cnMsIHdobyBkaWQgbm90IHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgdGhlIG1lYW5pbmcgb2YgYW4gYXZhbGFuY2hlIG9m IEFCU1RBSU5zIGluIHRoZSB3YXkgdGhhdCB5b3UgYW5kIEkgdW5kZXJzdGFuZCBpdOKAnSBhbmQg YXMgSSBhbHNvIGhhcHBlbiB0byBiZSB0aGUgVHJhbnNwb3J0IFRlY2ggQWR2aXNvciB0byB0aGUg ZGV0bmV0IFdHLCBJIHN1cHBvc2UgSSBzaG91bGQgY29tbWVudCDigKYNCg0KR29pbmcgYmFjayB0 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Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7767912F1A6; Sat, 3 Nov 2018 19:51:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gRLmEQbZFlk8; Sat, 3 Nov 2018 19:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 81321130DC3; Sat, 3 Nov 2018 19:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [31.133.157.229] (dhcp-9de5.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.157.229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 36B79180121E; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 03:51:09 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-CCC3DE48-5F1C-426B-B00B-2849621BED21 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Loa Andersson X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16A404) In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 09:51:06 +0700 Cc: Alissa Cooper , Spencer Dawkins at IETF , "detnet@ietf.org" , Adam Roach , "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" , "draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases@ietf.org" , IESG , DetNet Chairs , Stewart Bryant , Lou Berger Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <80BB3703-2FEC-4227-9918-0783E2B6E797@pi.nu> References: <154046016999.16330.646297723728540542.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5b05a230-95d1-0979-05a4-69d53b759b9a@gmail.com> <8367E97A-74C3-4E99-9575-F48BC8ACE2BE@cooperw.in> <152b46f5-4ac4-6449-536b-b8cb7ecf3d21@gmail.com> <84792317-1414-109e-2e56-57f034d16219@nostrum.com> <8278D1D7-D4A8-4948-9FA7-2E46104F4BF7@cooperw.in> To: "Black, David" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-19: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2018 02:51:15 -0000 --Apple-Mail-CCC3DE48-5F1C-426B-B00B-2849621BED21 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I strongly agree with David and Stewart. First - starting to use =E2=80=9CAbstain=E2=80=9D is the dualistic fashion s= hould really have been much better way to E.g.-chairs and to the community i= n general. I=E2=80=99d say it should be avoided.=20 Second - I also find the the group documents together of a wide range of doc= uments to be less than productive.=20 I would further say that some documents the are called =E2=80=9Csupport docu= ments=E2=80=9D are really key documents e.g. RFC 5654.=20 (Yes, that document is PS, but that is only because ITU-T could not referenc= e Informational RFC at that time.=20 Third - I expect any documents that a working group requests publication for= get a fair review by the IESG. It is not like we are producing unnecessary d= ocuments.=20 /Loa Sent from my iPhone > On 4 Nov 2018, at 08:51, Black, David wrote: >=20 > HI Alissa, > =20 > De-cloaking =E2=80=A6 I=E2=80=99m the person whom Spencer referred to as =E2= =80=9Cone of our most experienced TSV chairs, who did not understand the mea= ning of an avalanche of ABSTAINs in the way that you and I understand it=E2=80= =9D and as I also happen to be the Transport Tech Advisor to the detnet WG, I= suppose I should comment =E2=80=A6 > =20 > Going back to , two r= easons are given for a Discuss position: > =20 > 1. I am so strongly opposed to the document that I am unwilling to "d= iscuss". (Note that this should be very unusual.) > 2. I oppose this document but understand that others differ and am no= t going to stand in the way of the others. > =20 > My sense from experience is that Abstain was rarely used in the past (e.g.= , prior to the IESG statement on support documents), and mostly for the firs= t reason, particularly as an escalation of an initial Discuss position that h= ad led to an unproductive discussion with a high heat/light ratio. When us= ed in the latter fashion, Abstain carries a strong =E2=80=9CThis document is= fundamentally wrong=E2=80=9D message about document content along with an o= vertone of AD frustration with the unproductive discussion. That tends to b= e long-remembered by those who have been through such an experience in any r= ole ;-). > =20 > Here, it seems that Abstain is being used in a rather different and much l= ess emphatic fashion =E2=80=93 based on the comment that the document =E2=80= =9Chas useful content but I'm not convinced of its archival value,=E2=80=9D t= his appears to be a =E2=80=9Cprocess=E2=80=9D Abstain =E2=80=93 i.e., the dr= aft content is ok, but in the AD=E2=80=98s view, this sort of draft should n= ot be published as an RFC. That=E2=80=99s a weaker level of concern than a D= iscuss, in contrast to the other usage, and comes a surprise, at least to me= . IMHO, it=E2=80=99s within reason for the IESG to start using Abstain in t= his fashion in connection with statement on support documents, but that new p= ractice could have been much better communicated. > =20 > Also, Stewart Bryant is definitely correct about publishing support docume= nts as RFCs to provide stable references for other standards bodies =E2=80=93= RFC 8394 (from the nvo3 WG) is a recent worked example from May of this yea= r. That RFC is a requirements document whose requirements led to changes in= an IEEE 802 protocol (VDP), and IEEE 802 wanted a stable IETF reference for= that requirements input. In the =E2=80=9Ccredit where credit is due=E2=80=9D= department, Yizhou Li (RFC co-author), did most of the work across IETF and= IEEE 802 to make those VDP changes happen. > Thanks, --David > =20 > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alissa Cooper > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2018 9:17 AM > To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF > Cc: Lou Berger; Adam Roach; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A; draft-ietf-detnet-use-cas= es@ietf.org; IESG; DetNet Chairs; Stewart Bryant; detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-use-cas= es-19: (with COMMENT) > =20 > [EXTERNAL EMAIL]=20 > Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive= information. >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > On Oct 29, 2018, at 5:35 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > =20 > Hi, Adam,=20 > =20 > On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 2:02 PM Adam Roach wrote: > On 10/29/18 12:41 PM, Stewart Bryant wrote: > > > > > > On 29/10/2018 01:50, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > >> Without going back for a quote, he was basically saying he thought=20 > >> more tgan one ABSTAIN was a pretty strong signal from the IESG that a=20= > >> document should not be published. > > > > That was always my understanding when I was on the IESG.=20 >=20 >=20 > It is mine as well, but it only serves as advice. For informational=20 > documents, it has no process significance, since it does not preclude=20 > publication. Basically, if there are a large number of ABSTAINs, it=20 > means that the working group is publishing the document over the=20 > objections of the IESG (unless it uses this advice as an opportunity to=20= > reconsider the request for publication). It is my understanding that the=20= > process is set up exactly to allow this kind of thing to happen. >=20 > It's certainly fair game to discuss whether the system *should* be set=20 > up this way, but I can't imagine any realistic changes other than ones=20 > that would actually block publication under such circumstances -- and I=20= > doubt that's where the community wants to take things. >=20 > In this particular case, it appears as if you're trying to get an IESG=20 > member to say that she supports publication of a document when that is=20 > not actually true. Given that there is no practical difference in=20 > getting the document published, this pressure seems kind of problematic. > =20 > Pronouns are confusing, but since Stewart was replying to me, I'm not sure= who "you" is.=20 > =20 > But just in case it's me, we're still talking about an Informational docum= ent that requires one Yes and no Discusses to publish, no? And our BCP says t= hat Informational documents do not reflect IETF consensus or recommendation,= in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-4.2.2. =20 > =20 > So, I know why an AD would ballot DIscuss on an Informational document, bu= t I'm less clear about why ADs ballot Abstains.=20 > =20 > I ballot Abstain when my position on the document is consistent with what i= s described at , namel= y "I oppose this document but understand that others differ and am not going= to stand in the way of the others.=E2=80=9D > =20 > Alissa >=20 >=20 > =20 > Of course, we've had conversations about this at least since Stewart was o= n the IESG. So I'll stop typing, and go back to packing. > =20 > Travel safely, all, of course. > =20 > Spencer > =20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet --Apple-Mail-CCC3DE48-5F1C-426B-B00B-2849621BED21 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I strongly agree with David and Stewart.
First - starting to u= se =E2=80=9CAbstain=E2=80=9D is the dualistic fashion should really have bee= n much better way to E.g.-chairs and to the community in general. I=E2=80=99= d say it should be avoided. 
Second - I also find the the gro= up documents together of a wide range of documents to be less than productiv= e. 
I would further say that some documents the are called =E2= =80=9Csupport documents=E2=80=9D are really key documents e.g. RFC 5654.&nbs= p;
(Yes, that document is PS, but that is only because ITU-T could= not reference Informational RFC at that time. 
Third - I exp= ect any documents that a working group requests publication for get a fair r= eview by the IESG. It is not like we are producing unnecessary documents.&nb= sp;

/Loa

Sent from my iPhone

On 4 Nov 2018, a= t 08:51, Black, David <David.Blac= k@dell.com> wrote:

HI Alissa,<= o:p>

 

De-cloaking =E2=80=A6 I=E2=80=99m the p= erson whom Spencer referred to as =E2=80=9Cone of our most experienced TSV c= hairs, who did not understand the meaning of an avalanche of ABSTAINs in the way that you and I understand it=E2=80=9D and as I also happen to be= the Transport Tech Advisor to the detnet WG, I suppose I should comment =E2= =80=A6

 

Going back to <https://www.ietf.org/standards/p= rocess/iesg-ballots/>, two reasons are given for a Discuss position:<= o:p>

 

1.   = ;   I am so strongly opposed to= the document that I am unwilling to "discuss". (Note that this should be ve= ry unusual.)

2.   = ;   I oppose this document but u= nderstand that others differ and am not going to stand in the way of the oth= ers.

 

My sense from experience is that Abstai= n was rarely used in the past (e.g., prior to the IESG statement on support d= ocuments), and mostly for the first reason, particularly as an escalation of an initial Discuss position that had led t= o an unproductive discussion with a high heat/light ratio.   When u= sed in the latter fashion, Abstain carries a strong =E2=80=9CThis document i= s fundamentally wrong=E2=80=9D message about document content along with an overtone of AD frustration with the unproductive disc= ussion.  That tends to be long-remembered by those who have been throug= h such an experience in any role ;-).

 

Here, it seems that Abstain is=
 being used in a rather different and much less emphatic fashion =E2=80=93 b=
ased on the comment that the document =E2=80=9Chas useful content but I'm no=
t convinced of its archival value,=E2=80=9D this appears to be a =E2=80=9Cpr=
ocess=E2=80=9D Abstain =E2=80=93 i.e., the draft content is ok, but in the A=
D=E2=80=98s view, this sort of draft should not be published as an RFC. =
; That=E2=80=99s a weaker level of concern than a Discuss, in contrast to th=
e other usage, and comes a surprise, at least to me.  IMHO, it=E2=80=99=
s within reason for the IESG to start using Abstain in this fashion in conne=
ction with statement on support documents, but that new practice could have b=
een much better communicated.
 
= 
Also, Stewart Bryant is definitely correct about publishi=
ng support documents as RFCs to provide stable references for other standard=
s bodies =E2=80=93 RFC 8394 (from the nvo3 WG) is a recent worked example fr=
om May of this year.  That RFC is a requirements document whose require=
ments led to changes in an IEEE 802 protocol (VDP), and IEEE 802 wanted a st=
able IETF reference for that requirements input.  In the =E2=80=9Ccredi=
t where credit is due=E2=80=9D department, Yizhou Li (RFC co-author), did mo=
st of the work across IETF and IEEE 802 to make those VDP changes happen.

Thanks, --David

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alissa Cooper
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2018 9:17 AM
To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF
Cc: Lou Berger; Adam Roach; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A; draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases@ietf.org= ; IESG; DetNet Chairs; Stewart Bryant; de= tnet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-us= e-cases-19: (with COMMENT)

 

[EXTERNAL EM= AIL]
Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive i= nformation.

 



On Oct 29, 2018, at 5:35 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF &= lt;spencerdawkins.ietf@gmai= l.com> wrote:

 

Hi, Adam, 

 

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 2:02 PM Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:

=

On 10/29/18 12:41 PM, Stewart Bryant wrote:
>
>
> On 29/10/2018 01:50, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
>> Without going back for a quote, he was basically saying he thought <= br> >> more tgan one ABSTAIN was a pretty strong signal from the IESG that= a
>> document should not be published.
>
> That was always my understanding when I was on the IESG.


It is mine as well, but it only serves as advice. For informational
documents, it has no process significance, since it does not preclude
publication. Basically, if there are a large number of ABSTAINs, it
means that the working group is publishing the document over the
objections of the IESG (unless it uses this advice as an opportunity to
= reconsider the request for publication). It is my understanding that the process is set up exactly to allow this kind of thing to happen.

It's certainly fair game to discuss whether the system *should* be set
up this way, but I can't imagine any realistic changes other than ones
that would actually block publication under such circumstances -- and I
= doubt that's where the community wants to take things.

In this particular case, it appears as if you're trying to get an IESG
member to say that she supports publication of a document when that is
not actually true. Given that there is no practical difference in
getting the document published, this pressure seems kind of problematic.

 

Pronouns are confusing, but since Stewart was replyin= g to me, I'm not sure who "you" is. 

 

But just in case it's me, we're still talking about a= n Informational document that requires one Yes and no Discusses to publish, n= o? And our BCP says that Informational documents do not reflect IETF consens= us or recommendation, in https://tools.= ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-4.2.2.  

 

So, I know why an AD would ballot DIscuss on an Infor= mational document, but I'm less clear about why ADs ballot Abstains. 

 

I ballot Abstain when my position on the document is c= onsistent with what is described at <https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/iesg-bal= lots/>, namely "I oppose this document but understand that others differ and am not going to stand in the way of t= he others.=E2=80=9D

 

Alissa



 

Of course, we've had conversations about this at leas= t since Stewart was on the IESG. So I'll stop typing, and go back to packing= .

 

Travel safely, all, of course.

 

Spencer

 

________= _______________________________________
detnet mailing list<= /span>
detnet@ietf.org
https://= www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
=
= --Apple-Mail-CCC3DE48-5F1C-426B-B00B-2849621BED21-- From nobody Sun Nov 4 00:40:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D87FF130DE5; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 00:40:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=m5Dpe6qW; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=MlIlOmNO Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tBxCALRsfOeU; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 00:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93100130E07; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 00:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2004BC00; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 02:40:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 04 Nov 2018 02:40:20 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= from:message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; s=fm1; bh=2Dm0eCTtgV/ktHY3b3kNa65 p7HlsxuDv0XH9jPgCn8E=; b=m5Dpe6qWIC+kmOVK61e6CPg6GhhuhI/V8D7VR24 QBJVUEX5dW+RomKqA5lQIQa3q869qX8s1Fs5iDqA/Um01tOGCrIXYyVFHObYWqDa XxIHvTICqhPPHqInK2wMqSOMoDhqOrcHoAnz2FcLUliO3wRwzFCXOIb0U0gRtX4N fCfPHW+5505x8djB0scHSvA3Y7JU8DgatJSness6rIxTeDXXyHyyWpmdYhWG8DC/ GF+RzCTsp/0AbpSfvZWLM1WoZOIApWE55Jt4/LwSAWByRanBI9NJHrnojsL8hPn5 bkbWXA/suomSKGuE0xseBviv2qle8ldALC2MNuJXifyRypA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=2Dm0eC TtgV/ktHY3b3kNa65p7HlsxuDv0XH9jPgCn8E=; b=MlIlOmNOBy6wTqyvYLMsmq rQGH7rQ1PdBjyO0pWNbhchDimYfbS4eAdSZFLkoyuz3kcgNlUo8JQSvvzulq4ZZA ZyG3MD7iFEirQyL8jiwtAtbKcgBh1+NM+jw9dGqq+0TODAEhwHKnYCruOeRCteXL M08B9By3HESSO0F8gRtsWRVkTslHZIpBZkTSBZWy2j7GD8TJkxaA6MVjCnw9HnmW hwKrc2dqX70Nfc6cg3QxHJ5i4HOr+2yMD9jZ5ooqUy6wL7oSY55ZmgH2EtlRwiq4 TbFYPXycitM/w+X2iNXLfSm91EIg1qfRH6iI9RgF2x1Gq4NxINwkYa6akmPN2baA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy: Received: from rtp-vpn1-607.cisco.com (unknown [173.38.117.82]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 07B8AE40E6; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 02:40:13 -0500 (EST) From: Alissa Cooper Message-Id: <580E4418-048D-48B5-A012-4FC5743EA056@cooperw.in> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_733AD2BF-9D5E-4DB9-AB63-8AF65D6166FB" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 14:40:08 +0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Lou Berger , Adam Roach , "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" , "draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases@ietf.org" , IESG , DetNet Chairs , Stewart Bryant , "detnet@ietf.org" To: "Black, David" References: <154046016999.16330.646297723728540542.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5b05a230-95d1-0979-05a4-69d53b759b9a@gmail.com> <8367E97A-74C3-4E99-9575-F48BC8ACE2BE@cooperw.in> <152b46f5-4ac4-6449-536b-b8cb7ecf3d21@gmail.com> <84792317-1414-109e-2e56-57f034d16219@nostrum.com> <8278D1D7-D4A8-4948-9FA7-2E46104F4BF7@cooperw.in> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-19: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2018 07:40:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_733AD2BF-9D5E-4DB9-AB63-8AF65D6166FB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi David, > On Nov 4, 2018, at 8:51 AM, Black, David wrote: >=20 > HI Alissa, <> > =20 > De-cloaking =E2=80=A6 I=E2=80=99m the person whom Spencer referred to = as =E2=80=9Cone of our most experienced TSV chairs, who did not = understand the meaning of an avalanche of ABSTAINs in the way that you = and I understand it=E2=80=9D and as I also happen to be the Transport = Tech Advisor to the detnet WG, I suppose I should comment =E2=80=A6 > =20 > Going back to >, two reasons are = given for a Discuss position: The two reasons given below are for Abstain positions, not Discuss = positions. > =20 > 1. I am so strongly opposed to the document that I am unwilling = to "discuss". (Note that this should be very unusual.) > 2. I oppose this document but understand that others differ and = am not going to stand in the way of the others. > =20 > My sense from experience is that Abstain was rarely used in the past = (e.g., prior to the IESG statement on support documents), and mostly for = the first reason, particularly as an escalation of an initial Discuss = position that had led to an unproductive discussion with a high = heat/light ratio. When used in the latter fashion, Abstain carries a = strong =E2=80=9CThis document is fundamentally wrong=E2=80=9D message = about document content along with an overtone of AD frustration with the = unproductive discussion. That tends to be long-remembered by those who = have been through such an experience in any role ;-). > =20 > Here, it seems that Abstain is being used in a rather different and = much less emphatic fashion =E2=80=93 based on the comment that the = document =E2=80=9Chas useful content but I'm not convinced of its = archival value,=E2=80=9D this appears to be a =E2=80=9Cprocess=E2=80=9D = Abstain =E2=80=93 i.e., the draft content is ok, but in the AD=E2=80=98s = view, this sort of draft should not be published as an RFC. That=E2=80=99= s a weaker level of concern than a Discuss, in contrast to the other = usage, and comes a surprise, at least to me. =20 As I mentioned earlier in the thread, my ballot on this document is = consistent with the second reason given above for balloting Abstain. I = believe the ballot procedures you quote have been in place since 2009. I = appreciate that people may read more into the ballots and ballot = positions than what is written in them, but all I can do is write in the = ballot what I actually mean. To further illustrate this, it seems to me this effort to get me to = change my ballot from Abstain to No Objection (presumably), is to my eye = akin to an effort to get someone to change their ballot from No = Objection to Yes. That is, neither position prevents the document from = being published, but for some reason people want me to have one position = rather than the other. Notably, I can=E2=80=99t recall ever seeing = anyone try to convince an AD to change from No Objection to Yes. So = it=E2=80=99s a bit perplexing to see all of this discussion about = changing between two other ballot positions that both have the same = effect on the document, namely that they both allow the document to be = publishes as-is. > IMHO, it=E2=80=99s within reason for the IESG to start using Abstain = in this fashion in connection with statement on support documents,=20 I only had time to look through my own Abstain ballots, and I found the = following prior ballots in this vein (note that some of them list = similar ballots from other ADs): January 2015: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7498/ballot/ February 2015: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7547/ballot/ February 2017: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8123/ballot/ April 2017: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8192/ballot/ June 2017: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8248/ballot/ May 2018: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8432/ballot/ So I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s accurate to say that this practice = =E2=80=9Cstarted=E2=80=9D with this ballot on = draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases, or with the ballots on = draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata. > but that new practice could have been much better communicated. Fair enough. We got a bit of feedback when we published the statement, = and within the IESG I think we agreed that each AD should socialize its = existence within our own areas and working groups. Perhaps that = decentralized communication has not been as effective as it could be and = we need to put in another round of effort to make it more visible. Alissa > =20 > Also, Stewart Bryant is definitely correct about publishing support = documents as RFCs to provide stable references for other standards = bodies =E2=80=93 RFC 8394 (from the nvo3 WG) is a recent worked example = from May of this year. That RFC is a requirements document whose = requirements led to changes in an IEEE 802 protocol (VDP), and IEEE 802 = wanted a stable IETF reference for that requirements input. In the = =E2=80=9Ccredit where credit is due=E2=80=9D department, Yizhou Li (RFC = co-author), did most of the work across IETF and IEEE 802 to make those = VDP changes happen. > Thanks, --David > =20 > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org = ] On Behalf Of Alissa Cooper > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2018 9:17 AM > To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF > Cc: Lou Berger; Adam Roach; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A; = draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases@ietf.org = ; IESG; DetNet Chairs; = Stewart Bryant; detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on = draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-19: (with COMMENT) > =20 > [EXTERNAL EMAIL]=20 > Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for = sensitive information. >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > On Oct 29, 2018, at 5:35 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF = > = wrote: > =20 > Hi, Adam,=20 > =20 > On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 2:02 PM Adam Roach > wrote: > On 10/29/18 12:41 PM, Stewart Bryant wrote: > > > > > > On 29/10/2018 01:50, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > >> Without going back for a quote, he was basically saying he thought=20= > >> more tgan one ABSTAIN was a pretty strong signal from the IESG that = a=20 > >> document should not be published. > > > > That was always my understanding when I was on the IESG.=20 >=20 >=20 > It is mine as well, but it only serves as advice. For informational=20 > documents, it has no process significance, since it does not preclude=20= > publication. Basically, if there are a large number of ABSTAINs, it=20 > means that the working group is publishing the document over the=20 > objections of the IESG (unless it uses this advice as an opportunity = to=20 > reconsider the request for publication). It is my understanding that = the=20 > process is set up exactly to allow this kind of thing to happen. >=20 > It's certainly fair game to discuss whether the system *should* be set=20= > up this way, but I can't imagine any realistic changes other than ones=20= > that would actually block publication under such circumstances -- and = I=20 > doubt that's where the community wants to take things. >=20 > In this particular case, it appears as if you're trying to get an IESG=20= > member to say that she supports publication of a document when that is=20= > not actually true. Given that there is no practical difference in=20 > getting the document published, this pressure seems kind of = problematic. > =20 > Pronouns are confusing, but since Stewart was replying to me, I'm not = sure who "you" is.=20 > =20 > But just in case it's me, we're still talking about an Informational = document that requires one Yes and no Discusses to publish, no? And our = BCP says that Informational documents do not reflect IETF consensus or = recommendation, in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-4.2.2 = . =20 > =20 > So, I know why an AD would ballot DIscuss on an Informational = document, but I'm less clear about why ADs ballot Abstains.=20 > =20 > I ballot Abstain when my position on the document is consistent with = what is described at = >, namely "I = oppose this document but understand that others differ and am not going = to stand in the way of the others.=E2=80=9D > =20 > Alissa >=20 >=20 > =20 > Of course, we've had conversations about this at least since Stewart = was on the IESG. So I'll stop typing, and go back to packing. > =20 > Travel safely, all, of course. > =20 > Spencer --Apple-Mail=_733AD2BF-9D5E-4DB9-AB63-8AF65D6166FB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = David,

On Nov 4, 2018, at 8:51 AM, Black, David = <David.Black@dell.com> wrote:

 
De-cloaking =E2=80=A6 = I=E2=80=99m the person whom Spencer referred to as =E2=80=9Cone of our = most experienced TSV chairs, who did not understand the meaning of an = avalanche of ABSTAINs in the way that you and I understand it=E2=80=9D = and as I also happen to be the Transport Tech Advisor to the detnet WG, = I suppose I should comment =E2=80=A6
 
Going back to <https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/iesg-ballots/>, = two reasons are given for a Discuss = position:

The two reasons given below are for Abstain = positions, not Discuss positions.

 
1.      I am so strongly opposed to the document = that I am unwilling to "discuss". (Note that this should be very = unusual.)
2.      I oppose this document but understand that = others differ and am not going to stand in the way of the others.
 
My sense from = experience is that Abstain was rarely used in the past (e.g., prior to = the IESG statement on support documents), and mostly for the first = reason, particularly as an escalation of an initial Discuss position = that had led to an unproductive discussion with a high heat/light ratio. =   When used in the latter fashion, Abstain carries a strong = =E2=80=9CThis document is fundamentally wrong=E2=80=9D message about = document content along with an overtone of AD frustration with the = unproductive discussion.  That tends to be long-remembered by those = who have been through such an experience in any role ;-).
 
Here, it seems that Abstain is being used in a rather =
different and much less emphatic fashion =E2=80=93 based on the comment =
that the document =E2=80=9Chas useful content but I'm not convinced of =
its archival value,=E2=80=9D this appears to be a =E2=80=9Cprocess=E2=80=9D=
 Abstain =E2=80=93 i.e., the draft content is ok, but in the AD=E2=80=98s =
view, this sort of draft should not be published as an RFC.  =
That=E2=80=99s a weaker level of concern than a Discuss, in contrast to =
the other usage, and comes a surprise, at least to me.  =

As = I mentioned earlier in the thread, my ballot on this document is = consistent with the second reason given above for balloting Abstain. I = believe the ballot procedures you quote have been in place since 2009. I = appreciate that people may read more into the ballots and ballot = positions than what is written in them, but all I can do is write in the = ballot what I actually mean.

To = further illustrate this, it seems to me this effort to get me to change = my ballot from Abstain to No Objection (presumably), is to my eye akin = to an effort to get someone to change their ballot from No Objection to = Yes. That is, neither position prevents the document from being = published, but for some reason people want me to have one position = rather than the other. Notably, I can=E2=80=99t recall ever seeing = anyone try to convince an AD to change from No Objection to Yes. So = it=E2=80=99s a bit perplexing to see all of this discussion about = changing between two other ballot positions that both have the same = effect on the document, namely that they both allow the document to be = publishes as-is.

IMHO, it=E2=80=99=
s within reason for the IESG to start using Abstain in this fashion in =
connection with statement on support documents, =

I = only had time to look through my own Abstain ballots, and I found the = following prior ballots in this vein (note that some of them list = similar ballots from other ADs):

January 2015: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7498/ballot/

February 2015: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7547/ballot/

February 2017: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8123/ballot/

April 2017: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8192/ballot/

June 2017: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8248/ballot/

May 2018: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8432/ballot/

So I don=E2=80=99t think = it=E2=80=99s accurate to say that this practice =E2=80=9Cstarted=E2=80=9D = with this ballot on draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases, or with the = ballots on draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata.

but that new =
practice could have been much better =
communicated.

Fair enough. We got a bit of feedback when we = published the statement, and within the IESG I think we agreed that each = AD should socialize its existence within our own areas and working = groups. Perhaps that decentralized communication has not been as = effective as it could be and we need to put in another round of effort = to make it more visible.

Alissa

 
Also, Stewart Bryant is =
definitely correct about publishing support documents as RFCs to provide =
stable references for other standards bodies =E2=80=93 RFC 8394 (from =
the nvo3 WG) is a recent worked example from May of this year.  =
That RFC is a requirements document whose requirements led to changes in =
an IEEE 802 protocol (VDP), and IEEE 802 wanted a stable IETF reference =
for that requirements input.  In the =E2=80=9Ccredit where credit =
is due=E2=80=9D department, Yizhou Li (RFC co-author), did most of the =
work across IETF and IEEE 802 to make those VDP changes =
happen.
Thanks, --David
 
From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Alissa = Cooper
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2018 = 9:17 AM
To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF
Cc: Lou Berger; Adam Roach; = BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A; draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases@ietf.org; IESG; DetNet = Chairs; Stewart Bryant; detnet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa = Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-19: (with COMMENT)
 

[EXTERNAL = EMAIL] 
Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests = for sensitive information.

 


On Oct 29, 2018, at 5:35 PM, Spencer = Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
 
Hi, Adam, 
 
On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at = 2:02 PM Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> = wrote:
On 10/29/18 12:41 PM, Stewart Bryant wrote:
>
>
> On 29/10/2018 = 01:50, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
>> Without = going back for a quote, he was basically saying he thought 
>> = more tgan one ABSTAIN was a pretty strong signal from the IESG that = a 
>> document should not be published.
>
> That was always my understanding when = I was on the IESG. 


It is mine as well, but it only = serves as advice. For informational 
documents, = it has no process significance, since it does not preclude 
publication. = Basically, if there are a large number of ABSTAINs, it 
means that = the working group is publishing the document over the 
objections = of the IESG (unless it uses this advice as an opportunity to 
reconsider = the request for publication). It is my understanding that the 
process is = set up exactly to allow this kind of thing to happen.

It's certainly fair game to discuss whether the system = *should* be set 
up this way, but I can't imagine any realistic changes other = than ones 
that would actually block publication under such = circumstances -- and I 
doubt that's = where the community wants to take things.

In = this particular case, it appears as if you're trying to get an IESG 
member to = say that she supports publication of a document when that is 
not actually = true. Given that there is no practical difference in 
getting the = document published, this pressure seems kind of problematic.
 
Pronouns are confusing, but since = Stewart was replying to me, I'm not sure who "you" is. 
 
But just in = case it's me, we're still talking about an Informational document that = requires one Yes and no Discusses to publish, no? And our BCP says that = Informational documents do not reflect IETF consensus or recommendation, = in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-4.2.2. &nb= sp;
 
So, I know why an AD would ballot = DIscuss on an Informational document, but I'm less clear about why ADs = ballot Abstains. 
 
I ballot Abstain when my position on the = document is consistent with what is described at <https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/iesg-ballots/>, = namely "I oppose this document but understand that others differ and am = not going to stand in the way of the others.=E2=80=9D
 
Alissa


 
Of course, we've had conversations about = this at least since Stewart was on the IESG. So I'll stop typing, and go = back to packing.
 
Travel safely, all, of course.
 
Spencer
<= /div>

= --Apple-Mail=_733AD2BF-9D5E-4DB9-AB63-8AF65D6166FB-- From nobody Sun Nov 4 01:57:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA926130E07; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 01:56:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.463 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.463 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.47, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, SUBJ_ALL_CAPS=1.506, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zZcN2eeMKsN7; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 01:56:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97EA0130DD5; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 01:56:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=6689; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1541321814; x=1542531414; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=sAWZZs6EymQQuPHvWoJWuaw1hWGa27q64+vOHhscrxY=; b=a4FtL328eicOFZARWwD/QCnr5NMiQNNSyI3tmeMRAly3sEWjuYdrppFS x/34TPIGJF7z7BhCG9Gh9/Wf80J/jSzlQKSnrwrzhcUFEU4lJbBxlMTyL QA2KyQVM9R9iUa+koN10EJ/aNVmTm0ZpACMdpBEHuUF79Ysd4g0uh1ISM g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ADAADRs95b/4MNJK1jGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAQGBUQQBAQEBAQsBgQ13Zn8oCoROhzaOIo53EYJRhVQUgWY?= =?us-ascii?q?LAQEjhEkCgz4iNA0NAQMBAQIBAQJtEwkMhToBAQEBAy1BCxACAQgRBAEBLzI?= =?us-ascii?q?dCAEBBAENBQiDGoEdZA+nNIQtAYViBYt2F4FBP4QjgUGBWgKBKYYTAo5ehiq?= =?us-ascii?q?KKgkChmyEe4UgIIFVhQCKC4Jrih2KFwIRFIEmHTiBVXAVO4JshgeFFIU+b4x?= =?us-ascii?q?1gR8BAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.54,463,1534809600"; d="scan'208,217";a="196394947" Received: from alln-core-1.cisco.com ([173.36.13.131]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 04 Nov 2018 08:56:53 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-020.cisco.com (xch-aln-020.cisco.com [173.36.7.30]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id wA48urhD010375 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 4 Nov 2018 08:56:53 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-020.cisco.com (173.36.7.30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 02:56:52 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 02:56:52 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "6tisch@ietf.org" <6tisch@ietf.org>, "detnet@ietf.org" , Suresh Krishnan , "6lo@ietf.org" <6lo@ietf.org> CC: "Jerome Henry (jerhenry)" , "Venkatesan, Ganesh" Thread-Topic: PAW @ IETF 103 Thread-Index: AdRqvbcd3laOAmeFQ82Pbx7pi1v0kwJXI9Mw Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 08:56:23 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 08:56:02 +0000 Message-ID: <3963adc688b44f61a6ad6aec2b1faeb5@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <08888a2d9dfd4f24a20e209ab2aff446@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <08888a2d9dfd4f24a20e209ab2aff446@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.75.233.44] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3963adc688b44f61a6ad6aec2b1faeb5XCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.30, xch-aln-020.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] PAW @ IETF 103 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2018 08:56:57 -0000 --_000_3963adc688b44f61a6ad6aec2b1faeb5XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all: The PAW (on Predictable and Available Wireless) bar-BoF will be Thursday 11= -12 AM. Very informal like a bar BoF should be, but no drinks either, sadly= . Some of us will continue over lunch, so people who need to be in a meetin= g at 11AM may join then. The meeting rooms (https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/103sidemeet= ings) are not available, I'll try to find something with the help of the A-= Ds. Suresh: would you have an idea for a room with like 15-20 seats? See you all then; Pascal From: 6tisch <6tisch-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthuber= t) Sent: mardi 23 octobre 2018 13:19 To: 6tisch@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org Cc: Jerome Henry (jerhenry) ; Venkatesan, Ganesh Subject: [6tisch] PAW @ IETF 103 Dear all : I created a doodle https://doodle.com/poll/ikewr3wcztiztppx to have an info= rmal discussion on Predictable and Available Wireless, see what we could do= at the IETF to achieve on wireless similar goals as deterministic networki= ng on wires. Please let me know if you are interested to follow that discussion. If ther= e is enough interest, I'll ask for a separate non-WG mailing list. See you in Bangkok! Pascal --_000_3963adc688b44f61a6ad6aec2b1faeb5XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear all: <= /span>

 

The PAW (on Predictabl= e and Available Wireless) bar-BoF will be Thursday 11-12 AM. Very informal = like a bar BoF should be, but no drinks either, sadly. Some of us will cont= inue over lunch, so people who need to be in a meeting at 11AM may join then.

 

The meeting rooms (htt= ps://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/103sidemeetings) are not availabl= e, I’ll try to find something with the help of the A-Ds.

 

Suresh: would you have= an idea for a room with like 15-20 seats?

 

See you all then;=

 

Pascal

 

From: 6tisch <6tisch-bounces@ietf.org> = On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
Sent: mardi 23 octobre 2018 13:19
To: 6tisch@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org
Cc: Jerome Henry (jerhenry) <jerhenry@cisco.com>; Venkatesan, = Ganesh <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>
Subject: [6tisch] PAW @ IETF 103

 

Dear all :

 

I created a doodle https://doodle.com/poll/ikewr3wcztiztppx to have an informal discussion= on Predictable and Available Wireless, see what we could do at the IETF to= achieve on wireless similar goals as deterministic networking on wires.

 

Please let me know if you are interested to follow t= hat discussion. If there is enough interest, I’ll ask for a separate = non-WG mailing list.

 

See you in Bangkok!

 

Pascal

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MXHUB310.corp.emc.com (MXHUB310.corp.emc.com [10.146.3.36]) by mailusrhubprd03.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id wA4EotEc005779 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 4 Nov 2018 09:50:56 -0500 Received: from MX307CL04.corp.emc.com ([fe80::849f:5da2:11b:4385]) by MXHUB310.corp.emc.com ([10.146.3.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 09:50:55 -0500 To: Alissa Cooper Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-19: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHUbEYv36L9NKEPh0uqhNwdn5k9CaUyEACAgAACSYCAAP0MgIAAl92AgAIW8YCAAQnAAIAAFmYAgAAq6YCAAplzgIAFN0rwgADEjgCAACLWwA== Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 14:50:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <154046016999.16330.646297723728540542.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5b05a230-95d1-0979-05a4-69d53b759b9a@gmail.com> <8367E97A-74C3-4E99-9575-F48BC8ACE2BE@cooperw.in> <152b46f5-4ac4-6449-536b-b8cb7ecf3d21@gmail.com> <84792317-1414-109e-2e56-57f034d16219@nostrum.com> <8278D1D7-D4A8-4948-9FA7-2E46104F4BF7@cooperw.in> <580E4418-048D-48B5-A012-4FC5743EA056@cooperw.in> In-Reply-To: <580E4418-048D-48B5-A012-4FC5743EA056@cooperw.in> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.105.8.135] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949363032B7CEMX307CL04corpem_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd03.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-11-04_13:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1807170000 definitions=main-1811040142 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-19: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2018 14:51:25 -0000 --_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949363032B7CEMX307CL04corpem_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SW5saW5lIOKApg0KDQpUaGFua3MsIC0tRGF2aWQNCg0KRnJvbTogQWxpc3NhIENvb3BlciBbbWFp bHRvOmFsaXNzYUBjb29wZXJ3LmluXQ0KU2VudDogU3VuZGF5LCBOb3ZlbWJlciA0LCAyMDE4IDI6 NDAgQU0NClRvOiBCbGFjaywgRGF2aWQNCkNjOiBTcGVuY2VyIERhd2tpbnMgYXQgSUVURjsgTG91 IEJlcmdlcjsgQWRhbSBSb2FjaDsgQlJVTkdBUkQsIERFQk9SQUggQTsgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1kZXRu ZXQtdXNlLWNhc2VzQGlldGYub3JnOyBJRVNHOyBEZXROZXQgQ2hhaXJzOyBTdGV3YXJ0IEJyeWFu dDsgZGV0bmV0QGlldGYub3JnDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW0RldG5ldF0gQWxpc3NhIENvb3Blcidz 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-0500 From: "Black, David" Received: from mailuogwhop.emc.com ([168.159.213.141]) by esa1.dell-outbound2.iphmx.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA256; 04 Nov 2018 22:27:44 +0600 Received: from maildlpprd05.lss.emc.com (maildlpprd05.lss.emc.com [10.253.24.37]) by mailuogwprd03.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id wA4GRkva001689 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 11:27:47 -0500 X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd03.lss.emc.com wA4GRkva001689 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=emc.com; s=jan2013; t=1541348867; bh=odnv9Y5/Hn0EgrRC4d87+LOqXtU=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=kVp7BzjfbQ3CL3RKQSsV3CoDBgRnLr08UQlubdkIf1HZwyC74D2vkZ+v7CHlZSEEQ +kFBOystBtUuOHak6pi1PO7RTDa9EZVswh8xduPt605vaW/20xJzvJTmvt7IePwXDj i+/UyjFgYI+GdQwJshtY5kivJ+WlC0+7YegVNC8E= X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd03.lss.emc.com wA4GRkva001689 Received: from mailusrhubprd52.lss.emc.com (mailusrhubprd52.lss.emc.com [10.106.48.25]) by maildlpprd05.lss.emc.com (RSA Interceptor) for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 11:27:23 -0500 Received: from MXHUB307.corp.emc.com (MXHUB307.corp.emc.com [10.146.3.33]) by mailusrhubprd52.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id wA4GRNqQ027328 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 11:27:24 -0500 Received: from MX307CL04.corp.emc.com ([fe80::849f:5da2:11b:4385]) by MXHUB307.corp.emc.com ([10.146.3.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 11:27:22 -0500 To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers for detnet flow identification Thread-Index: AdR0WNCrZGGbU8NhRgmkuzkuVax3LA== Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 16:27:22 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.105.8.135] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949363032B993MX307CL04corpem_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd52.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-11-04_14:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=956 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1807170000 definitions=main-1811040156 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers for detnet flow identification X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2018 16:27:55 -0000 --_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949363032B993MX307CL04corpem_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We have a problem here ... The detnet IP solution draft (draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-ip-01.txt) has this = to say about use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers for detnet flow identification: 6.1.1.4. IPv4 Type of Service and IPv6 Traffic Class Fields These fields are used to support Differentiated Services [RFC2474] and Explicit Congestion Notification [RFC3168]. Implementations of this document MUST support DetNet flow identification based on the IPv4 Type of Service field when processing IPv4 packets, and the IPv6 Traffic Class Field when processing IPv6 packets. Implementations MUST support bimask based matching, where one (1) values in the bitmask indicate which subset of the bits in the field are to be used in determining a match. Note that a zero (0) value as a bitmask effectively means that these fields are ignored. That bitmask approach won't work, as it violates both RFC 2474 and RFC 3168= . Starting with ECN (RFC 3168) - the 2-bit ECN field is intended to enable EC= N functionality to be applied to any flow, and the contents of the ECN field can be changed by an= y router. Using ECN field values to identify separate flows is wrong, see Section 5 of RFC 3168= , which specifies the current use of that field.. That leaves the 6-bit DSCP field, which is defined by RFC 2474. The above = bitmask approach is prohibited by the following paragraph in section 3 of RFC 2474: Implementors should note that the DSCP field is six bits wide. DS- compliant nodes MUST select PHBs by matching against the entire 6-bit DSCP field, e.g., by treating the value of the field as a table index which is used to select a particular packet handling mechanism which has been implemented in that device. The value of the CU field MUST be ignored by PHB selection. The DSCP field is defined as an unstructured field to facilitate the definition of future per-hop behaviors. The CU field is now the ECN field (see RFC 3168). My reading is that the c= urrent section 6.1.1.4 text in the IP solutions draft has managed to violate all three "MUST" requirements= in that RFC 2474 paragraph, which is impressive ... and not in a good way. I suggest that several things be done: a) Abandon use of the ECN field for detnet flow identification. b) For the DSCP field, change from a bitmask approach to a list of DSC= Ps. a. I would note that a carefully chosen DSCP list can be implemented v= ia a bitmask. c) Define one or more Diffserv PHBs that realize DetNet behavior. a. I suspect that much of the content needed for this already exists i= n the detnet drafts, so this should not be a "from scratch" exercise. I would also caution that the current IP solution draft text on 6-tuples fo= r flow identification appears to allow multiple separate detnet flows that differ only in DSCP to use the= same IP 5-tuple (source & destination addresses, transport protocol, source & destination ports). I = believe that this also ought to be prohibited, as Diffserv uses 5-tuples for flow identification - see t= he definition and use of the term "microflow" in RFC 2475. A quick glance at the MPLS solution suggests that it does not have an analo= gous problem with the TC field in labels as the TC field does not appear to be used for detnet flow = identification. Thanks, --David ---------------------------------------------------------------- David L. Black, Senior Distinguished Engineer Dell EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA 01748 +1 (774) 350-9323 New Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754 David.Black@dell.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- --_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949363032B993MX307CL04corpem_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

We have a problem here …

 

The detnet IP solution draft (draft-ietf-detnet-dp-s= ol-ip-01.txt) has this to say about

use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers for detnet = flow identification:

 

6.1.1.4.  IPv4 Type of Service and IPv6 Traffic Class= Fields

 

   These fields are used to support Differentiat= ed Services [RFC2474]

   and Explicit Congestion Notification [RFC3168= ].  Implementations of

   this document MUST support DetNet flow identi= fication based on the

   IPv4 Type of Service field when processing IP= v4 packets, and the IPv6

   Traffic Class Field when processing IPv6 pack= ets.  Implementations

   MUST support bimask based matching, where one= (1) values in the

   bitmask indicate which subset of the bits in = the field are to be used

   in determining a match.  Note that a zer= o (0) value as a bitmask

   effectively means that these fields are ignor= ed.

 

That bitmask approach won’t work, as it violat= es both RFC 2474 and RFC 3168.

 

Starting with ECN (RFC 3168) – the 2-bit ECN f= ield is intended to enable ECN functionality to be

applied to any flow, and the contents of the ECN fie= ld can be changed by any router.  Using ECN

field values to identify separate flows is wrong, se= e Section 5 of RFC 3168, which specifies the

current use of that field..

 

That leaves the 6-bit DSCP field, which is defined b= y RFC 2474.  The above bitmask approach is

prohibited by the following paragraph in section 3 o= f RFC 2474:

 

   Implementors should note that th= e DSCP field is six bits wide.  DS-

   compliant nodes MUST select PHBs= by matching against the entire 6-bit

   DSCP field, e.g., by treating th= e value of the field as a table index

   which is used to select a partic= ular packet handling mechanism which

   has been implemented in that dev= ice.  The value of the CU field MUST

   be ignored by PHB selection.&nbs= p; The DSCP field is defined as an

   unstructured field to facilitate= the definition of future per-hop

   behaviors.

 

The CU field is now the ECN field (see RFC 3168).&nb= sp; My reading is that the current section 6.1.1.4 text in

the IP solutions draft has managed to violate all th= ree “MUST” requirements in that RFC 2474

paragraph, which is impressive … and not in a = good way.

 

I suggest that several things be done:

a)      Abandon use of the ECN field for detnet flow identi= fication.

b)      For the DSCP field, change from a bitmask approach = to a list of DSCPs.

a.      I would note that a carefully chosen DSCP list can = be implemented via a bitmask.

c)      Define one or more Diffserv PHBs that realize DetNe= t behavior.

a.      I suspect that much of the content needed for this = already exists in the
detnet drafts, so this should not be a “from scratch” exercise.=

 

I would also caution that the current IP solution dr= aft text on 6-tuples for flow identification appears

to allow multiple separate detnet flows that differ = only in DSCP to use the same IP 5-tuple (source &

destination addresses, transport protocol, source &a= mp; destination ports).  I believe that this also ought

to be prohibited, as Diffserv uses 5-tuples for flow= identification - see the definition and use of the

term “microflow” in RFC 2475.=

 

A quick glance at the MPLS solution suggests that it= does not have an analogous problem with the TC

field in labels as the TC field does not appear to b= e used for detnet flow identification.

 

Thanks, --David

----------------------------------------------------= ------------

David L. Black, Senior Distinguished Engineer

Dell EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748

+1 (774) 350-9323 New    M= obile: +1 (978) 394-7754

David.Black@dell.com

----------------------------------------------------= ------------

 

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([2001:67c:1232:144:c0c1:ea6f:46be:1bcf]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j67-v6sm12303920pfb.124.2018.11.04.18.41.36 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 04 Nov 2018 18:41:38 -0800 (PST) To: Alissa Cooper , "Black, David" Cc: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Lou Berger , Adam Roach , "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" , "draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases@ietf.org" , IESG , DetNet Chairs , "detnet@ietf.org" References: <154046016999.16330.646297723728540542.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5b05a230-95d1-0979-05a4-69d53b759b9a@gmail.com> <8367E97A-74C3-4E99-9575-F48BC8ACE2BE@cooperw.in> <152b46f5-4ac4-6449-536b-b8cb7ecf3d21@gmail.com> <84792317-1414-109e-2e56-57f034d16219@nostrum.com> <8278D1D7-D4A8-4948-9FA7-2E46104F4BF7@cooperw.in> <580E4418-048D-48B5-A012-4FC5743EA056@cooperw.in> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 02:41:35 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <580E4418-048D-48B5-A012-4FC5743EA056@cooperw.in> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E57346CB23AD236AA8DA8C99" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-19: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2018 02:41:44 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E57346CB23AD236AA8DA8C99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> IMHO, it’s within reason for the IESG to start using Abstain in this >> fashion in connection with statement on support documents, > > I only had time to look through my own Abstain ballots, and I found > the following prior ballots in this vein (note that some of them list > similar ballots from other ADs): > > January 2015: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7498/ballot/ > > February 2015: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7547/ballot/ > > February 2017: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8123/ballot/ > > April 2017: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8192/ballot/ > > June 2017: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8248/ballot/ > > May 2018: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8432/ballot/ > > So I don’t think it’s accurate to say that this practice “started” > with this ballot on draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases, or with the ballots > on draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata. Whilst that may be so, that is not so many drafts compared to the number that went through the IESG that most of us would have noticed unless we were an affected chair or author. > >> but that new practice could have been much better communicated. > > Fair enough. We got a bit of feedback when we published the statement, > and within the IESG I think we agreed that each AD should socialize > its existence within our own areas and working groups. Perhaps that > decentralized communication has not been as effective as it could be > and we need to put in another round of effort to make it more visible. > I think the IESG need to revisit both the statement and the communitation of the statement and its implications.  I am not convinced either of these was widely noted. Best regards Stewart --------------E57346CB23AD236AA8DA8C99 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 
IMHO, it’s within reason for the IESG to start using Abstain in this fashion in connection with statement on support documents,

I only had time to look through my own Abstain ballots, and I found the following prior ballots in this vein (note that some of them list similar ballots from other ADs):

January 2015: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7498/ballot/






So I don’t think it’s accurate to say that this practice “started” with this ballot on draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases, or with the ballots on draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata.

Whilst that may be so, that is not so many drafts compared to the number that went through the IESG that most of us would have noticed unless we were an affected chair or author.



but that new practice could have been much better communicated.

Fair enough. We got a bit of feedback when we published the statement, and within the IESG I think we agreed that each AD should socialize its existence within our own areas and working groups. Perhaps that decentralized communication has not been as effective as it could be and we need to put in another round of effort to make it more visible.

I think the IESG need to revisit both the statement and the communitation of the statement and its implications.  I am not convinced either of these was widely noted.

Best regards

Stewart

--------------E57346CB23AD236AA8DA8C99-- From nobody Sun Nov 4 19:45:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 870C4126BED; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 19:45:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ol2G5UN3t3sT; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 19:45:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x235.google.com (mail-lj1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D28DC129619; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 19:45:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x235.google.com with SMTP id t9-v6so3498927ljh.6; Sun, 04 Nov 2018 19:45:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VTvigrxljNtM+nJtE9t+XGo42XWRx0dqNbJMiBa7Gug=; b=JMn+N9PqKQVG2sprwtWzkIsMSBfhQDUe71ly/z7WN/If3Htu/n8TGLtep7IvDN7SaE SjWcU5cOEt8D5oR0R/yGDsQ0LjscVBotNuXztWFbz0/FDhxynS12uWYXfnEasNZtMlsT SavCfb6UJndcSaSMZ5dtMpGPACkeoXzE0t3KtopzPBaIdrc1cb56lHb6h5IfMAJdCJB2 /v825OfdXAB2ImKQdb85j0jc3EuYofg4j4UPDafP6QUzo5ma78Kvq/UaRPYbsatfHAus JAtF3lpB0k3h5IurpgueymHGpJ9sI+gksZGGCY9hQ597a6KyKDBR34tgqoASQq3e/gfJ Dztg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VTvigrxljNtM+nJtE9t+XGo42XWRx0dqNbJMiBa7Gug=; b=HpXb83mXRN3wzTxA8pJoJu7KsOZwib37DilzyAr+0O5eMx1gaYVEByUXuehxrNKQ9r cYqZ4KX8dnSUxk0Feg1rC/XEThtqWHHkow0Kbiw2wPb1g2ZksvrIrOXPhADmrUQHRZ+L SEDwe4IcJ86qZnRadZvZlX/LvspW3nnvBYSOpvEzBBLi8hPFhjFd0fT+SEKhQKV1VojJ 5UVxKSp4frZ8+2Q7AsHZiRTIv/7MpCA7Gg0q7yP/xt8O8HmbFuoFS/kz2oQHEngmR4VX M9PPTfSSMcHQ4c51BAuRLeqCXs2WSf7R3l6jokUWo8QJPyPHEgUD4ARE0MhWSQ/ALmmo 54gA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gK2VOt++2BB/vmORecuT8qQBMRUsa2ENgf9/Sk9yeE624XBFFXc BaPL4HW9zs4bEwV90xeurMAh1ODQvzD710co/xw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5f59TQwCtOjhYEBOaT0OPgcq+hunct24Y3YRgbICBVpnnngefLrrb7Rp6kJ519xjJVeQViom48drA97NXpV+us= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:851a:: with SMTP id j26-v6mr3019409lji.163.1541389516837; Sun, 04 Nov 2018 19:45:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154046016999.16330.646297723728540542.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5b05a230-95d1-0979-05a4-69d53b759b9a@gmail.com> <8367E97A-74C3-4E99-9575-F48BC8ACE2BE@cooperw.in> <152b46f5-4ac4-6449-536b-b8cb7ecf3d21@gmail.com> <84792317-1414-109e-2e56-57f034d16219@nostrum.com> <8278D1D7-D4A8-4948-9FA7-2E46104F4BF7@cooperw.in> <580E4418-048D-48B5-A012-4FC5743EA056@cooperw.in> In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 10:45:04 +0700 Message-ID: To: Stewart Bryant Cc: Alissa Cooper , "Black, David" , Lou Berger , Adam Roach , "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" , draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases@ietf.org, IESG , DetNet Chairs , detnet@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009c9b3e0579e2b6a0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-19: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2018 03:45:23 -0000 --0000000000009c9b3e0579e2b6a0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This is not my IETF week to have lots of opinions about what Abstains are, or are not, and to share those opinions with others, but I do have enough time to say this. "Communication is a good thing, as I learned in my SECOND marriage". I say that often, but don't often follow up with the corollary. "If I expect someone to work with me, we need to talk before I do things they don't expect or understand". Substitute "live with" for "work with", and all of you will know why Shirley and I are still married, and Helen and I are not. Make good choices. Spencer --0000000000009c9b3e0579e2b6a0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is not my IETF week to have lots of opinions ab= out what Abstains are, or are not, and to share those opinions with others,= but I do have enough time to say this.

"Communication is a good thing, as I learned in my SEC= OND marriage".

I sa= y that often, but don't often follow up with the corollary.

"If I expect someone to work w= ith me, we need to talk before I do things they don't expect or underst= and".

Substitute &q= uot;live with" for "work with", and all of you will know why= Shirley and I are still married, and Helen and I are not.

Make good choices.

Spencer
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boundary="----=_NextPart_001_00A4_01D474F8.79E92160" ------=_NextPart_001_00A4_01D474F8.79E92160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi David, =20 Many thanks for your comments and suggestions. This is definitely = something we must fix. Just two general statement as background: - ECN was not considered so far to be useful for DetNet flows. DetNet = flows expect zero congestion loss. DetNet sources do not consider to react on ECN. - Masking for flow identification was considered as a general rule for = the =93tuples=94 (i.e. not DSCP specific). =20 So, regarding your proposals A, No usage of ECN for flow identification: AGREE B, DSCP list instead of bitmask: AGREE, it can provide the same result. C, New DiffServ PHB for DetNet: Agree in principle, let=92s discuss the details =20 Thanks Bala=92zs =20 From: detnet On Behalf Of Black, David Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2018 11:27 PM To: detnet@ietf.org Subject: [Detnet] IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers for detnet flow identification =20 We have a problem here =85 =20 The detnet IP solution draft (draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-ip-01.txt) has = this to say about use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers for detnet flow identification: =20 6.1.1.4. IPv4 Type of Service and IPv6 Traffic Class Fields =20 These fields are used to support Differentiated Services [RFC2474] and Explicit Congestion Notification [RFC3168]. Implementations of this document MUST support DetNet flow identification based on the IPv4 Type of Service field when processing IPv4 packets, and the IPv6 Traffic Class Field when processing IPv6 packets. Implementations MUST support bimask based matching, where one (1) values in the bitmask indicate which subset of the bits in the field are to be used in determining a match. Note that a zero (0) value as a bitmask effectively means that these fields are ignored. =20 That bitmask approach won=92t work, as it violates both RFC 2474 and RFC = 3168. =20 Starting with ECN (RFC 3168) =96 the 2-bit ECN field is intended to = enable ECN functionality to be applied to any flow, and the contents of the ECN field can be changed by = any router. Using ECN field values to identify separate flows is wrong, see Section 5 of RFC = 3168, which specifies the current use of that field.. =20 That leaves the 6-bit DSCP field, which is defined by RFC 2474. The = above bitmask approach is prohibited by the following paragraph in section 3 of RFC 2474: =20 Implementors should note that the DSCP field is six bits wide. DS- compliant nodes MUST select PHBs by matching against the entire 6-bit DSCP field, e.g., by treating the value of the field as a table index which is used to select a particular packet handling mechanism which has been implemented in that device. The value of the CU field MUST be ignored by PHB selection. The DSCP field is defined as an unstructured field to facilitate the definition of future per-hop behaviors. =20 The CU field is now the ECN field (see RFC 3168). My reading is that = the current section 6.1.1.4 text in the IP solutions draft has managed to violate all three =93MUST=94 = requirements in that RFC 2474 paragraph, which is impressive =85 and not in a good way. =20 I suggest that several things be done: a. Abandon use of the ECN field for detnet flow identification.=20 b. For the DSCP field, change from a bitmask approach to a list of DSCPs. a. I would note that a carefully chosen DSCP list can be implemented via a bitmask. c. Define one or more Diffserv PHBs that realize DetNet behavior. a. I suspect that much of the content needed for this already exists in the detnet drafts, so this should not be a =93from scratch=94 exercise. =20 I would also caution that the current IP solution draft text on 6-tuples = for flow identification appears to allow multiple separate detnet flows that differ only in DSCP to use = the same IP 5-tuple (source & destination addresses, transport protocol, source & destination ports). = I believe that this also ought to be prohibited, as Diffserv uses 5-tuples for flow identification - = see the definition and use of the term =93microflow=94 in RFC 2475. =20 A quick glance at the MPLS solution suggests that it does not have an analogous problem with the TC field in labels as the TC field does not appear to be used for detnet = flow identification. =20 Thanks, --David ---------------------------------------------------------------- David L. Black, Senior Distinguished Engineer Dell EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA 01748 +1 (774) 350-9323 New Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754 David.Black@dell.com =20 ---------------------------------------------------------------- =20 ------=_NextPart_001_00A4_01D474F8.79E92160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi David,

 

Many thanks = for your comments and suggestions. This is definitely something we must = fix.

Just two general statement as = background:

- ECN was not considered = so far to be useful for DetNet flows. DetNet flows expect zero = congestion loss.

DetNet sources do = not consider to react on ECN.

- = Masking for flow identification was considered as a general rule for the = “tuples” (i.e. not DSCP specific).

 

So, = regarding your proposals

A, No usage = of ECN for flow identification: AGREE

B, DSCP list instead of bitmask: AGREE, it can provide = the same result.

C, New DiffServ PHB = for DetNet: Agree in principle, let’s discuss the = details

 

Thanks

Bala’zs

 

From: detnet = <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Black, = David
Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2018 11:27 PM
To: = detnet@ietf.org
Subject: [Detnet] IP Solution problem: Use of = DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers for detnet flow = identification

 

We have a = problem here …

 

The detnet = IP solution draft (draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-ip-01.txt) has this to say = about

use of DSCP and ECN fields in = IP headers for detnet flow identification:

 

6.1.1.4.  IPv4 Type of Service and IPv6 Traffic Class = Fields

 

   = These fields are used to support Differentiated Services = [RFC2474]

   = and Explicit Congestion Notification [RFC3168].  Implementations = of

   = this document MUST support DetNet flow identification based on = the

   = IPv4 Type of Service field when processing IPv4 packets, and the = IPv6

   = Traffic Class Field when processing IPv6 packets.  = Implementations

   = MUST support bimask based matching, where one (1) values in = the

   = bitmask indicate which subset of the bits in the field are to be = used

   = in determining a match.  Note that a zero (0) value as a = bitmask

   = effectively means that these fields are ignored.

 

That bitmask = approach won’t work, as it violates both RFC 2474 and RFC = 3168.

 

Starting with ECN (RFC 3168) – the 2-bit ECN = field is intended to enable ECN functionality to be

applied to any flow, and the contents of the ECN field = can be changed by any router.  Using ECN

field values to identify separate flows is wrong, see = Section 5 of RFC 3168, which specifies the

current use of that field..

 

That leaves = the 6-bit DSCP field, which is defined by RFC 2474.  The above = bitmask approach is

prohibited by the = following paragraph in section 3 of RFC 2474:

 

   Implementors should note that the DSCP field is = six bits wide.  DS-

   compliant nodes MUST select PHBs by matching = against the entire 6-bit

   DSCP field, e.g., by treating the value of the = field as a table index

   which is used to select a particular packet = handling mechanism which

   has been implemented in that device.  The = value of the CU field MUST

   be ignored by PHB selection.  The DSCP = field is defined as an

   unstructured field to facilitate the definition = of future per-hop

   behaviors.

 

The CU field = is now the ECN field (see RFC 3168).  My reading is that the = current section 6.1.1.4 text in

the = IP solutions draft has managed to violate all three “MUST” = requirements in that RFC 2474

paragraph, which is impressive … and not in a = good way.

 

I suggest that several things be = done:

  1. Abandon use of the ECN field for detnet flow identification. =
  2. For the DSCP field, = change from a bitmask approach to a list of DSCPs.
    1. I would note that a = carefully chosen DSCP list can be implemented via a = bitmask.
  3. Define one or more = Diffserv PHBs that realize DetNet behavior.
    1. I suspect that much of = the content needed for this already exists in the
      detnet drafts, so = this should not be a “from scratch” = exercise.

 

I would also = caution that the current IP solution draft text on 6-tuples for flow = identification appears

to allow = multiple separate detnet flows that differ only in DSCP to use the same = IP 5-tuple (source &

destination = addresses, transport protocol, source & destination ports).  I = believe that this also ought

to be = prohibited, as Diffserv uses 5-tuples for flow identification - see the = definition and use of the

term = “microflow” in RFC 2475.

 

A quick = glance at the MPLS solution suggests that it does not have an analogous = problem with the TC

field in labels = as the TC field does not appear to be used for detnet flow = identification.

 

Thanks, = --David

-------------------------------------------------------= ---------

David L. Black, Senior = Distinguished Engineer

Dell EMC, 176 = South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748

+1 (774) 350-9323 New    Mobile: = +1 (978) 394-7754

David.Black@dell.com<= /p>

-------------------------------------------------------= ---------

 

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Thanks, Ethan. --_000_BL0PR06MB454882587E0B3E2A759F93F4C4CA0BL0PR06MB4548namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To those of you who have a presentation slot, please= send your slide deck to the DetNet Chairs alias at your earliest convenien= ce.

Thanks,

Ethan.

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To: "detnet@ietf.org" CC: Daniel Harkins , "loa@pi.nu" , "rt-dt-security@ietf.org" , "stewart.bryant@gmail.com" , "Maik Seewald (maseewal)" Thread-Topic: DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103 Thread-Index: AdR1d2Me5W6V7I50S7itmpzMBMwJvw== Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 02:30:25 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=eagros@dolby.com; x-originating-ip: [31.133.148.130] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BL0PR06MB4402; 6:Jkzm8IMV+ZKSjaFogfd3y+E/NMVMl7E+zQWCjVeDlcII1FAkrslw7+PWifcIiRaohmfecnZETCB21kVLsRJIzwwvQCvykAKq8b+139q6vxWqKfyVkwMHkbrHJmZMcSUocPyLuxDC10/SFny/7JdGcievZ+A2Zal7PSE9hmNxj5Se2dp+ta3ONVHRprajAuVXYLpvvY9Fi/vPTMT2pRMCcSEmyj7lypamNykT6SAi9tR6qmMfMYYOI12PlLFQApSVXFrd2V6en7LVAm/1AAs09xFDAwW48XcZuNsddTHPB9Ex86YIyE8TDU6UiJg25ReBwDaIlK3xUxh6IfydYRgzEcmY+SK8gSh0ZO5oQbewRT6Ywc075uZz89mVem6L0KmQ6pRRGhKo3KTPId4lu1TCY1GDfoFZakVLmqEcyiCIJtzh/Fq5b5y+38AgDTOKS8OqZRst9/3l87PR2jkykkmGQA==; 5:sN6hsmgL6Be4BkhTOXgM0/5PcJBHDQur/DWn8C6DSMDn2ilVNmhis+zR7aZLTyzvEYOsnorLLOQ3FFgNHSosQowvyO6Yb+RMTlA4NmQaBfVgbcE1lDv3izzS9cPBPo7irWtXsCTKLrJD1863BdFDumT2Tmwxhxc5tp165xJQPX4=; 7:X+Wk+Q6CKLZfsTb0GyGUDgsU2gBz6dQpcuWp+9JpIIfO2AwolEiX+7YizblE3iR0npUi/aq1/jgP1h9Sn4TQg7vKxwB5iq0QtD/SOWpt3oWVOiB0UwXmmMFCMaIQJxv4o5wHV8MtGWPmydtpOjjdJw== x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: afbfadbc-7f31-4103-1db4-08d6438fcf8f x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600074)(711020)(2017052603328)(7153060)(7193020); SRVR:BL0PR06MB4402; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BL0PR06MB4402: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(192374486261705)(21748063052155)(28532068793085)(190501279198761)(227612066756510); x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(6040522)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(93006095)(93001095)(10201501046)(3002001)(3231382)(944501410)(52105095)(148016)(149066)(150057)(6041310)(20161123558120)(20161123564045)(20161123560045)(20161123562045)(201703131423095)(201702281528075)(20161123555045)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(201708071742011)(7699051)(76991095); SRVR:BL0PR06MB4402; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BL0PR06MB4402; x-forefront-prvs: 0848C1A6AA x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(366004)(136003)(346002)(376002)(396003)(39860400002)(53754006)(189003)(199004)(2420400007)(8936002)(39060400002)(4326008)(25786009)(10710500007)(99286004)(6916009)(5660300001)(86362001)(3846002)(6116002)(97736004)(54906003)(316002)(74316002)(790700001)(7736002)(5640700003)(105586002)(6436002)(476003)(14444005)(33656002)(54896002)(6306002)(7696005)(186003)(81166006)(81156014)(2351001)(15650500001)(9686003)(486006)(256004)(55016002)(1730700003)(53936002)(71190400001)(478600001)(71200400001)(2900100001)(9326002)(26005)(2906002)(66066001)(68736007)(2501003)(7110500001)(14454004)(106356001)(6506007)(8676002)(102836004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BL0PR06MB4402; H:BL0PR06MB4548.namprd06.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: dolby.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: LIgdEtziywetOiVP5hY6QkxzCrYTfLS7Wt+ApmGLYFBj+tjByjUFOFosoK2HaDu2YGbU7GzwNvKLBInCaQzki5Zvl2HnoK+mOHE09yi2MPQwZH8+rZv4Vnmp8BxF6swhNlYMu6Yg5kX+h/3rCTvMxbvf5g+9F8NbrM7uf6pZ+/08nZXZdUN+y34fPL77lQIuMgDuziEtzzB7Cl5Aa8Yj9jnbFLcF+//S4OFbgSbibc8tIyIF3wBQ0fWhhCDhR2t7IU2dJnXDGLonF12TK7DaMnTBjBYtItLSTWQuHpM0p5/lN8G77txXR7sco9WO2T06Bnzqtd84+7gWtXpPvYK5XNA7OPA2Z1eFxP0qcHukDIk= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BL0PR06MB4548C6EC789A40422588E98FC4CB0BL0PR06MB4548namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: dolby.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: afbfadbc-7f31-4103-1db4-08d6438fcf8f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Nov 2018 02:30:25.9901 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 05408d25-cd0d-40c8-8962-5462de64a318 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR06MB4402 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 02:30:32 -0000 --_000_BL0PR06MB4548C6EC789A40422588E98FC4CB0BL0PR06MB4548namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, Recent IESG draft reviews have resulted in a number of comments about how t= o handle the Security Considerations sections of the various drafts. Also n= ow that the data plane technologies have settled down to IP and MPLS, we ne= ed some strategy on what aspects of these have security implications unique= to DetNet. I would really like to meet up this week with anyone who has any interest i= n DetNet Security. If you email me back I can put a group meeting together,= or just have individual meetings with people (at which I can take notes on= your thoughts, i.e. you won't have to write anything unless you volunteer = :-) Of course we can also use the list, but since we have the opportunity to me= et face to face we can take advantage of it. Write me back!! Ethan (as DetNet Security Considerations draft editor). --_000_BL0PR06MB4548C6EC789A40422588E98FC4CB0BL0PR06MB4548namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi All,

Recent IESG draft reviews have resulted in a number = of comments about how to handle the Security Considerations sections of the= various drafts. Also now that the data plane technologies have settled dow= n to IP and MPLS, we need some strategy on what aspects of these have security implications unique to DetNet.

 

I would really like to meet up this week with anyone= who has any interest in DetNet Security. If you email me back I can put a = group meeting together, or just have individual meetings with people (at wh= ich I can take notes on your thoughts, i.e. you won’t have to write anything unless you volunteer :-) =

 

Of course we can also use the list, but since we hav= e the opportunity to meet face to face we can take advantage of it.

 

Write me back!!

Ethan (as DetNet Security Considerations draft edito= r).

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Mon, 5 Nov 2018 22:48:59 -0500 To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Varga_A?= , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers for detnet flow identification Thread-Index: AdR0WNCrZGGbU8NhRgmkuzkuVax3LAAY6CVAADDbGbA= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 03:48:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.36.42.62] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949363033031CMX307CL04corpem_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd53.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-11-06_01:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1807170000 definitions=main-1811060030 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers for detnet flow identification X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 03:49:27 -0000 --_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949363033031CMX307CL04corpem_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Varga, I'm pleased that we mostly agree, and I'll be happy to discuss the PHB furt= her. This discussion may also provide insight into my concern about 5-tuple vs. = 6-tuple flow identification - it looks like we have two different sorts of = "flow identification" under discussion: - Identification of a flow in the network in general (network flow or micro= flow in RFC 2475). - Identification of a flow that undergoes DetNet processing at a DetNet nod= e (DetNet flow). At the moment, we're using 5-tuples (src & dst addresses, protocol, src & d= st ports) for network flow identification and 6-tuples (5-tuple + DSCP) for= Detnet flow identification. In other words, we're effectively saying that= a network flow (defined by a 5-tuple), becomes a DetNet flow when a DetNet= DSCP is added to request DetNet forwarding by the network. There's a leve= l of indirection here caused by the Diffserv architecture - a DetNet DSCP d= esignates a DetNet PHB, and any a packet marked with a DetNet DSCP receives= DetNet forwarding at a DetNet node. That said, my concern is that the 6-tuple term for a DetNet flow seems coun= ter-intuitive to me, even though the DetNet forwarding plane in a DetNet no= de may well be matching on all 6 elements involved in order to decide wheth= er to provide DetNet forwarding to each arriving packet. IMHO, a better description would be that a network flow (5-tuple) is being = uniformly marked with a DetNet DSCP to request DetNet treatment from the ne= twork (and presumably DetNet router hardware is matching on DetNet DSCPs to= dispatch inbound packets to DetNet forwarding logic instead of conventiona= l forwarding logic). The counter-intuitivity of the 6-tuple term arises i= n the error case when someone uses a "clever" marking of a single 5-tuple f= low with a mixture of DetNet and non-DetNet DSCPs. I believe that the resu= lt of that "cleverness" is not multiple flows (which would be implied by th= e "6-tuple" term), even though it may look like that in a DetNet node imple= mentation. I think the result is better described as a single not-entirely= -DetNet flow (defined by a 5-tuple) that receives bizarre forwarding treatm= ent at DetNet nodes - some of the packets get DetNet forwarding treatment a= nd some get other forwarding treatment, so in a loaded network, significant= reordering is likely, and the receiver is probably not going to be happy w= ith the resulting packet arrival order. If this all makes sense, that "clever" mixing of DetNet and non-DetNet DSCP= s in a single flow (hence mixing DetNet and non-DetNet forwarding behavior = in a single flow) deserves a "SHOULD NOT" statement in the draft, with a wa= rning about the bizarre forwarding behavior at DetNet nodes that is a likel= y result, which seems like a better thing to do than my original suggestion= for some sort of prohibition on mixing DetNet and non-DetNet packets in th= e same 5-tuple. Thanks, --David From: Bal=E1zs Varga A [mailto:balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com] Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2018 11:13 PM To: Black, David; detnet@ietf.org Subject: RE: IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers = for detnet flow identification Hi David, Many thanks for your comments and suggestions. This is definitely something= we must fix. Just two general statement as background: - ECN was not considered so far to be useful for DetNet flows. DetNet flows= expect zero congestion loss. DetNet sources do not consider to react on ECN. - Masking for flow identification was considered as a general rule for the = "tuples" (i.e. not DSCP specific). So, regarding your proposals A, No usage of ECN for flow identification: AGREE B, DSCP list instead of bitmask: AGREE, it can provide the same result. C, New DiffServ PHB for DetNet: Agree in principle, let's discuss the detai= ls Thanks Bala'zs From: detnet On Behalf Of Black, David Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2018 11:27 PM To: detnet@ietf.org Subject: [Detnet] IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP hea= ders for detnet flow identification We have a problem here ... The detnet IP solution draft (draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-ip-01.txt) has this = to say about use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers for detnet flow identification: 6.1.1.4. IPv4 Type of Service and IPv6 Traffic Class Fields These fields are used to support Differentiated Services [RFC2474] and Explicit Congestion Notification [RFC3168]. Implementations of this document MUST support DetNet flow identification based on the IPv4 Type of Service field when processing IPv4 packets, and the IPv6 Traffic Class Field when processing IPv6 packets. Implementations MUST support bimask based matching, where one (1) values in the bitmask indicate which subset of the bits in the field are to be used in determining a match. Note that a zero (0) value as a bitmask effectively means that these fields are ignored. That bitmask approach won't work, as it violates both RFC 2474 and RFC 3168= . Starting with ECN (RFC 3168) - the 2-bit ECN field is intended to enable EC= N functionality to be applied to any flow, and the contents of the ECN field can be changed by an= y router. Using ECN field values to identify separate flows is wrong, see Section 5 of RFC 3168= , which specifies the current use of that field.. That leaves the 6-bit DSCP field, which is defined by RFC 2474. The above = bitmask approach is prohibited by the following paragraph in section 3 of RFC 2474: Implementors should note that the DSCP field is six bits wide. DS- compliant nodes MUST select PHBs by matching against the entire 6-bit DSCP field, e.g., by treating the value of the field as a table index which is used to select a particular packet handling mechanism which has been implemented in that device. The value of the CU field MUST be ignored by PHB selection. The DSCP field is defined as an unstructured field to facilitate the definition of future per-hop behaviors. The CU field is now the ECN field (see RFC 3168). My reading is that the c= urrent section 6.1.1.4 text in the IP solutions draft has managed to violate all three "MUST" requirements= in that RFC 2474 paragraph, which is impressive ... and not in a good way. I suggest that several things be done: a) Abandon use of the ECN field for detnet flow identification. b) For the DSCP field, change from a bitmask approach to a list of DSC= Ps. a. I would note that a carefully chosen DSCP list can be implemented v= ia a bitmask. c) Define one or more Diffserv PHBs that realize DetNet behavior. a. I suspect that much of the content needed for this already exists i= n the detnet drafts, so this should not be a "from scratch" exercise. I would also caution that the current IP solution draft text on 6-tuples fo= r flow identification appears to allow multiple separate detnet flows that differ only in DSCP to use the= same IP 5-tuple (source & destination addresses, transport protocol, source & destination ports). I = believe that this also ought to be prohibited, as Diffserv uses 5-tuples for flow identification - see t= he definition and use of the term "microflow" in RFC 2475. A quick glance at the MPLS solution suggests that it does not have an analo= gous problem with the TC field in labels as the TC field does not appear to be used for detnet flow = identification. Thanks, --David ---------------------------------------------------------------- David L. Black, Senior Distinguished Engineer Dell EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA 01748 +1 (774) 350-9323 New Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754 David.Black@dell.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- --_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949363033031CMX307CL04corpem_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Varga,

 

I’m pleased that= we mostly agree, and I’ll be happy to discuss the PHB further.<= /o:p>

 

This discussion may al= so provide insight into my concern about 5-tuple vs. 6-tuple flow identific= ation – it looks like we have two different sorts of “flow iden= tification” under discussion:

- Identification of a flow in the network in general (network flow or = microflow in RFC 2475).

- Identification of a flow that undergoes DetNet processing at a DetNe= t node (DetNet flow).

At the moment, we̵= 7;re using 5-tuples (src & dst addresses, protocol, src & dst ports= ) for network flow identification and 6-tuples (5-tuple + DSCP) for Det= net flow identification.  In other words, we’re effectively saying that a network flow (defined by a 5-tuple), becomes a DetNet flow w= hen a DetNet DSCP is added to request DetNet forwarding by the network.&nbs= p; There’s a level of indirection here caused by the Diffserv archite= cture – a DetNet DSCP designates a DetNet PHB, and any a packet marked with a DetNet DSCP receives DetNet forwarding at a= DetNet node.

 

That said, my concern = is that the 6-tuple term for a DetNet flow seems counter-intuitive to me, e= ven though the DetNet forwarding plane in a DetNet node may well be matchin= g on all 6 elements involved in order to decide whether to provide DetNet forwarding to each arriving packet.

 

IMHO, a better descrip= tion would be that a network flow (5-tuple) is being uniformly marked with = a DetNet DSCP to request DetNet treatment from the network (and presumably = DetNet router hardware is matching on DetNet DSCPs to dispatch inbound packets to DetNet forwarding logic instea= d of conventional forwarding logic).   The counter-intuitivity of= the 6-tuple term arises in the error case when someone uses a “cleve= r” marking of a single 5-tuple flow with a mixture of DetNet and non-DetNet DSCPs.  I believe that the result of that &#= 8220;cleverness” is not multiple flows (which would be implied by the= “6-tuple” term), even though it may look like that in a DetNet= node implementation.  I think the result is better described as a single not-entirely-DetNet flow (defined by a 5-tuple) that receives = bizarre forwarding treatment at DetNet nodes - some of the packets get DetN= et forwarding treatment and some get other forwarding treatment, so in a lo= aded network, significant reordering is likely, and the receiver is probably not going to be happy with the res= ulting packet arrival order.

 

If this all makes sens= e, that “clever” mixing of DetNet and non-DetNet DSCPs in a sin= gle flow (hence mixing DetNet and non-DetNet forwarding behavior in a singl= e flow) deserves a “SHOULD NOT” statement in the draft, with a warning about the bizarre forwarding behavior at DetNet node= s that is a likely result, which seems like a better thing to do than my or= iginal suggestion for some sort of prohibition on mixing DetNet and non-Det= Net packets in the same 5-tuple.

 

Thanks, --David

 

From: Bal=E1zs Varga A [mailto:balazs.a.varga= @ericsson.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2018 11:13 PM
To: Black, David; detnet@ietf.org
Subject: RE: IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP h= eaders for detnet flow identification

 

Hi David,

 

Many thanks for your comments and suggestions. This = is definitely something we must fix.

Just two general statement as background:=

- ECN was not considered so far to be useful for Det= Net flows. DetNet flows expect zero congestion loss.

DetNet sources do not consider to react on ECN.=

- Masking for flow identification was considered as = a general rule for the “tuples” (i.e. not DSCP specific).<= /o:p>

 

So, regarding your proposals

A, No usage of ECN for flow identification: AGREE

B, DSCP list instead of bitmask: AGREE, it can provi= de the same result.

C, New DiffServ PHB for DetNet: Agree in principle, = let’s discuss the details

 

Thanks

Bala’zs

 

From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> = On Behalf Of Black, David
Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2018 11:27 PM
To: detnet@ietf.org
Subject: [Detnet] IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in= IP headers for detnet flow identification

 

We have a problem here …

 

The detnet IP solution draft (draft-ietf-detnet-dp-s= ol-ip-01.txt) has this to say about

use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers for detnet = flow identification:

 

6.1.1.4.  IPv4 Type of Service and IPv6 Traffic Class= Fields

 

   These fields are used to support Differentiat= ed Services [RFC2474]

   and Explicit Congestion Notification [RFC3168= ].  Implementations of

   this document MUST support DetNet flow identi= fication based on the

   IPv4 Type of Service field when processing IP= v4 packets, and the IPv6

   Traffic Class Field when processing IPv6 pack= ets.  Implementations

   MUST support bimask based matching, where one= (1) values in the

   bitmask indicate which subset of the bits in = the field are to be used

   in determining a match.  Note that a zer= o (0) value as a bitmask

   effectively means that these fields are ignor= ed.

 

That bitmask approach won’t work, as it violat= es both RFC 2474 and RFC 3168.

 

Starting with ECN (RFC 3168) – the 2-bit ECN f= ield is intended to enable ECN functionality to be

applied to any flow, and the contents of the ECN fie= ld can be changed by any router.  Using ECN

field values to identify separate flows is wrong, se= e Section 5 of RFC 3168, which specifies the

current use of that field..

 

That leaves the 6-bit DSCP field, which is defined b= y RFC 2474.  The above bitmask approach is

prohibited by the following paragraph in section 3 o= f RFC 2474:

 

   Implementors should note that th= e DSCP field is six bits wide.  DS-

   compliant nodes MUST select PHBs= by matching against the entire 6-bit

   DSCP field, e.g., by treating th= e value of the field as a table index

   which is used to select a partic= ular packet handling mechanism which

   has been implemented in that dev= ice.  The value of the CU field MUST

   be ignored by PHB selection.&nbs= p; The DSCP field is defined as an

   unstructured field to facilitate= the definition of future per-hop

   behaviors.

 

The CU field is now the ECN field (see RFC 3168).&nb= sp; My reading is that the current section 6.1.1.4 text in

the IP solutions draft has managed to violate all th= ree “MUST” requirements in that RFC 2474

paragraph, which is impressive … and not in a = good way.

 

I suggest that several things be done:

a)      Abandon use of the ECN field for detnet flow identi= fication.

b)      For the DSCP field, change from a bitmask approach = to a list of DSCPs.

a.      I would note that a carefully chosen DSCP list can = be implemented via a bitmask.

c)      Define one or more Diffserv PHBs that realize DetNe= t behavior.

a.      I suspect that much of the content needed for this = already exists in the
detnet drafts, so this should not be a “from scratch” exercise.=

 

I would also caution that the current IP solution dr= aft text on 6-tuples for flow identification appears

to allow multiple separate detnet flows that differ = only in DSCP to use the same IP 5-tuple (source &

destination addresses, transport protocol, source &a= mp; destination ports).  I believe that this also ought

to be prohibited, as Diffserv uses 5-tuples for flow= identification - see the definition and use of the

term “microflow” in RFC 2475.=

 

A quick glance at the MPLS solution suggests that it= does not have an analogous problem with the TC

field in labels as the TC field does not appear to b= e used for detnet flow identification.

 

Thanks, --David

----------------------------------------------------= ------------

David L. Black, Senior Distinguished Engineer

Dell EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748

+1 (774) 350-9323 New    M= obile: +1 (978) 394-7754

David.Black@= dell.com

----------------------------------------------------= ------------

 

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To: "detnet@ietf.org" , Tal Mizrahi , Carsten Bormann CC: "stewart.bryant@gmail.com" , Daniel Harkins , "loa@pi.nu" , "Black, David" , Deborah Brungard , John Dowdell , Norman Finn , Subir Das , Henrik Austad Thread-Topic: DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103 Thread-Index: AdR1d2Me5W6V7I50S7itmpzMBMwJvwAGTJ9w Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 05:51:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=eagros@dolby.com; x-originating-ip: [31.133.148.130] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BL0PR06MB4211; 6:hpIBOIXTlnQM7OJZ3CW8x9JFQeIWGgjaJCgk+trDNIuBsEcGjgpDo3fjUQjOmsrdw2cbt6Lvcj5h5Hm7BZw2B+VtlnX8KhmT7onGdo4Ei1JfWYLPSCaoZ5Yp7HPb5qJeR8C8Tyux/WIWIHjtep++Z4famp7/CbF1IgRjKqr63PQfvLABVMwU6+J1qWR2WeFc/uWlqJR4BlTwlSGQyqSgPFW4abfNr5HzLmD0gANfVFzUOFYYq5T2JgKMt0ozZspW6CqQlZIvNManO5t3K9BNiaTdjOB/5HMrM9lxWUEZMxOY+2KPDnKTQs4LUcw0yaeBL0U4+WyiF2cn4xM7dHkAjKA9Iad/kLHpc9NcpoZjXt8roo58xKkt4CQZzVT9Sgzuc+U2cfO1/gukrACiSVpgQknb8AsbslYLk+2aQGjqEGAhFo8fJBiAqVfNerlJPNm/x9yGJNCYA8waB1RASoMKdw==; 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boundary="_000_BL0PR06MB45482CA0092BCCAA14583E89C4CB0BL0PR06MB4548namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: dolby.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 81b75d73-f0be-4e86-fd68-08d643abe677 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Nov 2018 05:51:30.2252 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 05408d25-cd0d-40c8-8962-5462de64a318 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR06MB4211 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 05:51:36 -0000 --_000_BL0PR06MB45482CA0092BCCAA14583E89C4CB0BL0PR06MB4548namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I claim we now have a quorum (thank you David and Loa) and a meeting time: Wednesday (tomorrow) at 2pm. I hope more of y'all will join us. Let us meet at the tables outside the Terminal Room on the 9th floor North = side, near "Apartment 1-4" rooms. If I can find an actual room between now = and then I'll let you know. Thanks, Ethan. From: detnet On Behalf Of Grossman, Ethan A. Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2018 9:30 AM To: detnet@ietf.org Cc: rt-dt-security@ietf.org; stewart.bryant@gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseew= al) ; Daniel Harkins ; loa@pi.nu Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103 Hi All, Recent IESG draft reviews have resulted in a number of comments about how t= o handle the Security Considerations sections of the various drafts. Also n= ow that the data plane technologies have settled down to IP and MPLS, we ne= ed some strategy on what aspects of these have security implications unique= to DetNet. I would really like to meet up this week with anyone who has any interest i= n DetNet Security. If you email me back I can put a group meeting together,= or just have individual meetings with people (at which I can take notes on= your thoughts, i.e. you won't have to write anything unless you volunteer = :-) Of course we can also use the list, but since we have the opportunity to me= et face to face we can take advantage of it. Write me back!! Ethan (as DetNet Security Considerations draft editor). --_000_BL0PR06MB45482CA0092BCCAA14583E89C4CB0BL0PR06MB4548namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I claim we now have a quorum (thank you David and Lo= a) and a meeting time:

Wednesday (tomorrow) at 2pm.

I hope more of y’all will join us.

Let us meet at the tables outside the Terminal Room = on the 9th floor North side, near “Apartment 1-4” ro= oms. If I can find an actual room between now and then I’ll let you k= now.

 

Thanks,

Ethan.

 

From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> = On Behalf Of Grossman, Ethan A.
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2018 9:30 AM
To: detnet@ietf.org
Cc: rt-dt-security@ietf.org; stewart.bryant@gmail.com; Maik Seewald = (maseewal) <maseewal@cisco.com>; Daniel Harkins <dharkins@lounge.o= rg>; loa@pi.nu
Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103<= o:p>

 

Hi All,

Recent IESG draft reviews have resulted in a number = of comments about how to handle the Security Considerations sections of the= various drafts. Also now that the data plane technologies have settled dow= n to IP and MPLS, we need some strategy on what aspects of these have security implications unique to DetNet.

 

I would really like to meet up this week with anyone= who has any interest in DetNet Security. If you email me back I can put a = group meeting together, or just have individual meetings with people (at wh= ich I can take notes on your thoughts, i.e. you won’t have to write anything unless you volunteer :-) =

 

Of course we can also use the list, but since we hav= e the opportunity to meet face to face we can take advantage of it.

 

Write me back!!

Ethan (as DetNet Security Considerations draft edito= r).

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Tue, 6 Nov 2018 02:52:47 -0500 To: "Grossman, Ethan A." , Loa Andersson , "Lou Berger" , Deborah Brungard Thread-Topic: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-security-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHUZcy1yQHFrEkpIUSfWk5venz6baUjFM+AgAAzZICAAAxuAIAAIksAgAB7gACAAGAVgIAeLAyQ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 07:52:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: <153974828679.9449.14033266463915630968@ietfa.amsl.com> <71004a92-f6ac-b204-f53c-d0e57a2a159e@pi.nu> <19754e94-fa63-799d-39c0-97df99e2c168@pi.nu> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.105.8.135] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd52.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public, GIS Solicitation X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-11-06_03:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1807170000 definitions=main-1811060070 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-security-03.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 07:53:32 -0000 Wearing my 4th/5th blue dots (WG chair role) at this meeting, I would sugge= st a dual-pronged approach: - For a general high-level draft, e.g., the use cases draft, referring to a= general security draft seems fine. - For a specific protocol draft, e.g., the two solutions drafts, referring = to a general security draft is a good start, but ought to be complemented by a discussion of security consi= derations specific to the protocols involved and how they're used. Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Grossman, Etha= n > A. > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 7:03 PM > To: Loa Andersson; Lou Berger; Deborah Brungard > Cc: detnet@ietf.org; Daniel Harkins > Subject: Re: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-security-03.txt >=20 >=20 > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitiv= e > information. >=20 >=20 > Or maybe the answer will be implicit in Daniel Harkins' response to Janos= ' plan to > update the architecture draft to refer to the Security draft. If he accep= ts that, > then I think that pretty much constitutes acceptance of that strategy? Bu= t even > if so, would that hold for every draft, or are there some types of draft = for which > that wouldn't be acceptable? > Ethan. >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Grossman, Ethan A. > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 10:19 AM > To: 'Loa Andersson' ; Lou Berger ; Deborah > Brungard > Cc: detnet@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-security-03.txt >=20 > Thanks Loa (adding Lou and Deborah). >=20 > So far, the reviewers of the last Use Cases draft have said "Hey where's = the > Security section?" and Lou and I added a Security section that points the= m at the > Security draft, and they seemed to be OK with that. I don't know if that = would be > the case for our other drafts. >=20 > I would very much like to have this conversation with the Security AD's a= nd > Directorate; at present, I personally don't know the most appropriate ind= ividuals > to engage with on this topic - if one of y'all would like to provide me s= ome kind > of introduction, I'm happy to try to drive some resolution on our strateg= y here, > either on the list or in Bangkok. >=20 > Ethan. >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Loa Andersson > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 2:57 AM > To: Grossman, Ethan A. > Cc: detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-security-03.txt >=20 > Ethan, Working Group, >=20 > I don't think there is a one size fits all approach possible for the Secu= rity > Considerations in all DetNet documents. My understanding is that the Secu= rity > Directorate and Security ADs require that each document have an independe= nt > treatment of the specific threats and concerns for a particular document. >=20 > Whatever strategy we decide on, please make sure that it is agreed on by = the > Security ADs and Directorate. >=20 > /Loa >=20 > On 2018-10-17 15:54, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > Hi Loa, > > Various strategies are possible. One possibility is that the other draf= ts (i.e. not > the Security draft) could just point at the Security draft such that ther= e would be > a "single clearing house" for DetNet-specific security info. That's what= the Use > Cases draft does, however there is also some security-related text in the= various > use cases. > > > > At one point I (as Security draft editor) attempted to bring together > > all of the security-related text from the various other drafts by > > copying it all into an appendix of the Security draft, since it is > > sort of handy to have it all in one place. But as Lou pointed out to > > me, we don't want to make the drafts dependent on each other if we can > > avoid it, and if such text got edited then it would have to be fixed > > in two places, so it isn't a perfect scheme. I would say that if a > > draft author wants to write their own security-related text in their > > own draft more power to them, but perhaps even more power if they > > bring it to the Security draft :- ) > > > > Sorry long answer to a short question. And I'm sure there are other > strategies... If you have any thoughts on the matter I'd love to hear the= m, either > on the list or at IETF 103. > > Ethan. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Loa Andersson > > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 12:10 AM > > To: Grossman, Ethan A. > > Cc: detnet@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-security-03.txt > > > > Ethan, > > > > I have just had a quick look, but what I see looks good, and certainly = gives a > good overview of the detnet security issues. > > > > One question, is it the intention that this document should be used as = a general > reference when writing security considerations for detnet documents? > > > > /Loa > > > > On 2018-10-17 12:05, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > >> Hi All, > >> This note is the status update for the DetNet Security Considerations = draft in > advance of IETF 103, in lieu of a presentation slot for it at IETF 103. > >> > >> A new version has been posted which includes the discussion on OAM tra= ffic > and incorporates the "Bounded Jitter" Use Case Common Theme. > >> > >> These are minor changes; no substantial work has been done since the l= ast > DetNet session, so we do not plan to have a slot for this draft at the IE= TF 103 > DetNet session (though Tal will be presenting on it at the DetNet-TSN mee= ting > on the following Sunday). > >> > >> I expect that we will convene as many of the authors (and any other > interested parties) as we have available at IETF 103 to discuss DetNet-da= ta- > plane-technology-specific security considerations and how to incorporate = them > into the draft as our next steps. If you would like to participate in (be= notified > about) this conversation, please let me know. > >> > >> Best, > >> Ethan (as DetNet Security Considerations draft editor) > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: detnet On Behalf Of > >> internet-drafts@ietf.org > >> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 8:51 PM > >> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > >> Cc: detnet@ietf.org > >> Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-security-03.txt > >> > >> > >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dir= ectories. > >> This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking WG of the IE= TF. > >> > >> Title : Deterministic Networking (DetNet) Security= Considerations > >> Authors : Tal Mizrahi > >> Ethan Grossman > >> Andrew J. Hacker > >> Subir Das > >> John Dowdell > >> Henrik Austad > >> Kevin Stanton > >> Norman Finn > >> Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-security-03.txt > >> Pages : 40 > >> Date : 2018-10-16 > >> > >> Abstract: > >> A deterministic network is one that can carry data flows for real= - > >> time applications with extremely low data loss rates and bounded > >> latency. Deterministic networks have been successfully deployed = in > >> real-time operational technology (OT) applications for some years > >> (for example [ARINC664P7]). However, such networks are typically > >> isolated from external access, and thus the security threat from > >> external attackers is low. IETF Deterministic Networking (DetNet= ) > >> specifies a set of technologies that enable creation of determini= stic > >> networks on IP-based networks of potentially wide area (on the sc= ale > >> of a corporate network) potentially bringing the OT network into > >> contact with Information Technology (IT) traffic and security thr= eats > >> that lie outside of a tightly controlled and bounded area (such a= s > >> the internals of an aircraft). These DetNet technologies have no= t > >> previously been deployed together on a wide area IP-based network= , > >> and thus can present security considerations that may be new to I= P- > >> based wide area network designers. This draft, intended for use = by > >> DetNet network designers, provides insight into these security > >> considerations. In addition, this draft collects all security- > >> related statements from the various DetNet drafts (Architecture, = Use > >> Cases, etc) into a single location Section 7. > >> > >> > >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-security/ > >> > >> There are also htmlized versions available at: > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-security-03 > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-detnet-security-03 > >> > >> A diff from the previous version is available at: > >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-detnet-security-03 > >> > >> > >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm= ission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > >> > >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> detnet mailing list > >> detnet@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> detnet mailing list > >> detnet@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > >> > > >=20 > -- >=20 >=20 > Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu > Senior MPLS Expert > Bronze Dragon Consulting phone: +46 739 81 21 64 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Tue Nov 6 00:15:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D793128A6E for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 00:15:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dolby.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9JL6LJuZM9z0 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 00:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM04-BN3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr680138.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.68.138]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 392F7128A5C for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 00:15:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dolby.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=S7ll/hdTaVcZbcw5TPWu6FU6P1CdWp3DwdnUOY5w2Es=; b=IBMKAWFt7YvQ0c25I7Qu9hoYK7kqfERQBQPFuiV1I/aI4h31haKilV3dSBSwowv6NQ54IsANS820yWIBBiUkT6cWVxjEZhumeTI4XEKU0+wHPwe3cunZ72XZ/tqmYKIo7gNLgx4+D1MkxFcx25pPWZ1fzdK7B8zq1f8BjeNnAKQ= Received: from BL0PR06MB4548.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (20.177.145.145) by BL0PR06MB5108.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.167.240.209) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1294.28; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 08:15:05 +0000 Received: from BL0PR06MB4548.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a1e4:ef9a:133f:b991]) by BL0PR06MB4548.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a1e4:ef9a:133f:b991%3]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.032; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 08:15:05 +0000 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: "Black, David" , Loa Andersson , Lou Berger , Deborah Brungard CC: "detnet@ietf.org" , Daniel Harkins Thread-Topic: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-security-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHUZcy1QxqXU+k7GUCjw6VABdAuOaUizfCQgAA3NYCAAAlfoIAAJVkAgAB5JdCAAGFhcIAecWwAgAAELgA= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 08:15:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: <153974828679.9449.14033266463915630968@ietfa.amsl.com> <71004a92-f6ac-b204-f53c-d0e57a2a159e@pi.nu> <19754e94-fa63-799d-39c0-97df99e2c168@pi.nu> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=eagros@dolby.com; x-originating-ip: [31.133.148.130] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BL0PR06MB5108; 6:4EYEnS56LiRcCBRtTD9hwYa2FlkqDIiEO3sHU7CTxgsmHwbvXUjVUtJw15/GeUIaTpPIAmiRy1PQDVGR3IA6StKVAjgBFucRgHzxC8g4dNKFIfn0YZO4AIlXTfSPWytzQQGcJcw8uTb6/G2h1Y/RK06fH1e7nFr/U95OYIyAfPCCIBA4De73VffCMke2WGf7Iyn6Hqhs9ZlqtilxU84Ld/cdG223iF+pSbpYGfIA5xHHXGX9cRsLLBrKgp8JgxtfAeZyo6QF/y6i6h5KwqeEi6qSORaK0UmSZhrZ+GqEJZ7qYtZieFO8kxh6CTysYkjAAVFwEOZxy2Owxwz3lqCve5OaT2qxgq99w20qhzmMK3Fu0N3hN26aGTvj3xTRJBLJUDniBFykHfMlsMuQi2evRRQ53BV0shM2FGhq76kEsl8w8BUL02kb3No1vccXlSCrZxLx83SszurMp1C8hkpQpQ==; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: dolby.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f8513084-2578-48e4-3337-08d643bff553 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Nov 2018 08:15:05.2563 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 05408d25-cd0d-40c8-8962-5462de64a318 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR06MB5108 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-security-03.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 08:15:14 -0000 Thanks David, it seems we are now pretty much converged on this strategy.=20 My intent for the meeting tomorrow is to establish a list of security aspec= ts related to use of IP and MPLS (as used by DetNet data plane) which are u= nique to a deterministic network, and thus wouldn't already be covered else= where.=20 Eventually the writeups on these would be added to the security draft as ap= propriate, and to (other) individual drafts as appropriate.=20 Ethan. -----Original Message----- From: Black, David =20 Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2018 2:53 PM To: Grossman, Ethan A. ; Loa Andersson ; Lou B= erger ; Deborah Brungard Cc: detnet@ietf.org; Daniel Harkins ; Black, David Subject: RE: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-security-03.txt Wearing my 4th/5th blue dots (WG chair role) at this meeting, I would sugge= st a dual-pronged approach: - For a general high-level draft, e.g., the use cases draft, referring to a= general security draft seems fine. - For a specific protocol draft, e.g., the two solutions drafts, referring = to a general security draft is a good start, but ought to be complemented by a discussion of security consi= derations specific to the protocols involved and how they're used. Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Grossman,=20 > Ethan A. > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 7:03 PM > To: Loa Andersson; Lou Berger; Deborah Brungard > Cc: detnet@ietf.org; Daniel Harkins > Subject: Re: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-security-03.txt >=20 >=20 > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for=20 > sensitive information. >=20 >=20 > Or maybe the answer will be implicit in Daniel Harkins' response to=20 > Janos' plan to update the architecture draft to refer to the Security=20 > draft. If he accepts that, then I think that pretty much constitutes=20 > acceptance of that strategy? But even if so, would that hold for every=20 > draft, or are there some types of draft for which that wouldn't be accept= able? > Ethan. >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Grossman, Ethan A. > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 10:19 AM > To: 'Loa Andersson' ; Lou Berger ;=20 > Deborah Brungard > Cc: detnet@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-security-03.txt >=20 > Thanks Loa (adding Lou and Deborah). >=20 > So far, the reviewers of the last Use Cases draft have said "Hey=20 > where's the Security section?" and Lou and I added a Security section=20 > that points them at the Security draft, and they seemed to be OK with=20 > that. I don't know if that would be the case for our other drafts. >=20 > I would very much like to have this conversation with the Security=20 > AD's and Directorate; at present, I personally don't know the most=20 > appropriate individuals to engage with on this topic - if one of y'all=20 > would like to provide me some kind of introduction, I'm happy to try=20 > to drive some resolution on our strategy here, either on the list or in B= angkok. >=20 > Ethan. >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Loa Andersson > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 2:57 AM > To: Grossman, Ethan A. > Cc: detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-security-03.txt >=20 > Ethan, Working Group, >=20 > I don't think there is a one size fits all approach possible for the=20 > Security Considerations in all DetNet documents. My understanding is=20 > that the Security Directorate and Security ADs require that each=20 > document have an independent treatment of the specific threats and concer= ns for a particular document. >=20 > Whatever strategy we decide on, please make sure that it is agreed on=20 > by the Security ADs and Directorate. >=20 > /Loa >=20 > On 2018-10-17 15:54, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > Hi Loa, > > Various strategies are possible. One possibility is that the other=20 > > drafts (i.e. not > the Security draft) could just point at the Security draft such that=20 > there would be a "single clearing house" for DetNet-specific security=20 > info. That's what the Use Cases draft does, however there is also=20 > some security-related text in the various use cases. > > > > At one point I (as Security draft editor) attempted to bring=20 > > together all of the security-related text from the various other=20 > > drafts by copying it all into an appendix of the Security draft,=20 > > since it is sort of handy to have it all in one place. But as Lou=20 > > pointed out to me, we don't want to make the drafts dependent on=20 > > each other if we can avoid it, and if such text got edited then it=20 > > would have to be fixed in two places, so it isn't a perfect scheme.=20 > > I would say that if a draft author wants to write their own=20 > > security-related text in their own draft more power to them, but=20 > > perhaps even more power if they bring it to the Security draft :- ) > > > > Sorry long answer to a short question. And I'm sure there are other > strategies... If you have any thoughts on the matter I'd love to hear=20 > them, either on the list or at IETF 103. > > Ethan. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Loa Andersson > > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 12:10 AM > > To: Grossman, Ethan A. > > Cc: detnet@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-security-03.txt > > > > Ethan, > > > > I have just had a quick look, but what I see looks good, and=20 > > certainly gives a > good overview of the detnet security issues. > > > > One question, is it the intention that this document should be used=20 > > as a general > reference when writing security considerations for detnet documents? > > > > /Loa > > > > On 2018-10-17 12:05, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > >> Hi All, > >> This note is the status update for the DetNet Security=20 > >> Considerations draft in > advance of IETF 103, in lieu of a presentation slot for it at IETF 103. > >> > >> A new version has been posted which includes the discussion on OAM=20 > >> traffic > and incorporates the "Bounded Jitter" Use Case Common Theme. > >> > >> These are minor changes; no substantial work has been done since=20 > >> the last > DetNet session, so we do not plan to have a slot for this draft at the=20 > IETF 103 DetNet session (though Tal will be presenting on it at the=20 > DetNet-TSN meeting on the following Sunday). > >> > >> I expect that we will convene as many of the authors (and any other > interested parties) as we have available at IETF 103 to discuss=20 > DetNet-data- plane-technology-specific security considerations and how=20 > to incorporate them into the draft as our next steps. If you would=20 > like to participate in (be notified > about) this conversation, please let me know. > >> > >> Best, > >> Ethan (as DetNet Security Considerations draft editor) > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: detnet On Behalf Of=20 > >> internet-drafts@ietf.org > >> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 8:51 PM > >> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > >> Cc: detnet@ietf.org > >> Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-security-03.txt > >> > >> > >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dir= ectories. > >> This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking WG of the IE= TF. > >> > >> Title : Deterministic Networking (DetNet) Security= Considerations > >> Authors : Tal Mizrahi > >> Ethan Grossman > >> Andrew J. Hacker > >> Subir Das > >> John Dowdell > >> Henrik Austad > >> Kevin Stanton > >> Norman Finn > >> Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-security-03.txt > >> Pages : 40 > >> Date : 2018-10-16 > >> > >> Abstract: > >> A deterministic network is one that can carry data flows for real= - > >> time applications with extremely low data loss rates and bounded > >> latency. Deterministic networks have been successfully deployed = in > >> real-time operational technology (OT) applications for some years > >> (for example [ARINC664P7]). However, such networks are typically > >> isolated from external access, and thus the security threat from > >> external attackers is low. IETF Deterministic Networking (DetNet= ) > >> specifies a set of technologies that enable creation of determini= stic > >> networks on IP-based networks of potentially wide area (on the sc= ale > >> of a corporate network) potentially bringing the OT network into > >> contact with Information Technology (IT) traffic and security thr= eats > >> that lie outside of a tightly controlled and bounded area (such a= s > >> the internals of an aircraft). These DetNet technologies have no= t > >> previously been deployed together on a wide area IP-based network= , > >> and thus can present security considerations that may be new to I= P- > >> based wide area network designers. This draft, intended for use = by > >> DetNet network designers, provides insight into these security > >> considerations. In addition, this draft collects all security- > >> related statements from the various DetNet drafts (Architecture, = Use > >> Cases, etc) into a single location Section 7. > >> > >> > >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-security/ > >> > >> There are also htmlized versions available at: > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-security-03 > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-detnet-security-03 > >> > >> A diff from the previous version is available at: > >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-detnet-security-03 > >> > >> > >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of=20 > >> submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > >> > >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> detnet mailing list > >> detnet@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> detnet mailing list > >> detnet@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > >> > > >=20 > -- >=20 >=20 > Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu > Senior MPLS Expert > Bronze Dragon Consulting phone: +46 739 81 21 64 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Tue Nov 6 23:06:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC41512D4E6 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 23:06:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dolby.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v5kahwP0J0bF for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 23:06:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM01-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr820111.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.82.111]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCAAB127333 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 23:06:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dolby.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=136dGEbk8HSZXy51yZBTFbDmJrj26lMvprr3zo+ho6M=; b=kEBmPuyo6077zV1w0/5gCI8uXIm2qxFoKsIIpOM9YzlGD1jMyOMCA4vcoN8LvTaWJfC3V+BGcreTRupxMDVN3obLM0NckbJTEnmuxNQHMriS0GfXNs4A04g5N9DLnnQBgBIVNfi5DcY9MYL6MOdglpq+90mtHHzUhjeXyLQtX9Y= Received: from BL0PR06MB4548.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (20.177.145.145) by BL0PR06MB4498.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (20.177.145.91) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1294.26; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 07:05:59 +0000 Received: from BL0PR06MB4548.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a1e4:ef9a:133f:b991]) by BL0PR06MB4548.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a1e4:ef9a:133f:b991%3]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.032; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 07:05:58 +0000 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: "detnet@ietf.org" , Tal Mizrahi , Carsten Bormann , Ehsan MohammadPour , Loa Andersson CC: "stewart.bryant@gmail.com" , Daniel Harkins , "loa@pi.nu" , "Black, David" , Deborah Brungard , John Dowdell , Norman Finn , Subir Das , Henrik Austad Thread-Topic: DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103 Thread-Index: AdR1d2Me5W6V7I50S7itmpzMBMwJvwAGTJ9wADXneeA= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 07:05:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=eagros@dolby.com; x-originating-ip: [31.133.148.130] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BL0PR06MB4498; 6:JKOF0vs5romRVkGeCIaHFZq46lU+grxOM+9HNFwtnuuOFgNtC54zAh0caLPqAvFnqYfJTznj5Xk1MaX0496CDzVpLaX0Bltchy8rxUMFRc6MFsL8zHChb7bVqWiHVoozWVUsw2gMrSUItn8bLKmy07cUZPwRYqGa1DA9bNBgc1XeLPTMFfOnrr2hrNZUlkz7/eRax+0U3MQr4/Gcm1uIjIbv3vZqLbZMzBybYiNpHCekuvyiydqVxwScGyhuWRkl3yq30UHpkHOwuBCtgnjJDPULBY7roP7/c2PcUI4czmomQR9ESpBsTaoTOmB9DsPi67lK3Wf7Iq8hvE6S81DT2ITHqeY12BqB/YgN31L3v1T4IYYk+QTti2SmLT5EjmVfvGwD45XDK1H6uHO7Wv2rjVGbPIEDIajogvtozGj3wRxztK7/ML4FAJx7b+ZH6w3y0LWOYSJXgSetn7bqL7j7ew==; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BL0PR06MB4498; H:BL0PR06MB4548.namprd06.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: dolby.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: OKc8SOQiuPIeJtV5WHIL9P3j58G6LazVRm4Ox3/wwb78kNwHeJvrA//xiKmGNKHsJXmvjtqpK+5Elrl6m+dH9uzYQ0jSlkk6ny4hFCMzvgESZ3OZJQD5mMXkaGcE1pn28AUyGYXrawbU0Pk1A6DuaMz9+ekn+vwxcTq6029jmYQ5Chs6H6EZB8kd2IxSTVd/QhnvrxOfz3U0mXt0EhCJunm21uWCE/e2LBU9t8xg1MoiO2RPsrAUIcQYa8DDovrQmvjTlDPH36uk3tX9cTRM44brxzIWVlUsPlj0tt/bA4Sxg/gyKHoy2lP83GdYgKHhd/XXtEInb3znqv3/vj4k0ccapEYOSjKqMGPntJA+Fk4= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BL0PR06MB4548ACAA0257FF0B6B4E7D21C4C40BL0PR06MB4548namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: dolby.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e54d3777-582b-4a2e-aa48-08d6447f7850 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Nov 2018 07:05:58.8497 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 05408d25-cd0d-40c8-8962-5462de64a318 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR06MB4498 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 07:06:06 -0000 --_000_BL0PR06MB4548ACAA0257FF0B6B4E7D21C4C40BL0PR06MB4548namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We are encamped in the "Apartment" meeting room immediately next door to th= e Terminal Room. From: Grossman, Ethan A. Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2018 12:52 PM To: detnet@ietf.org; Tal Mizrahi ; Carsten Borma= nn Cc: stewart.bryant@gmail.com; Daniel Harkins ; loa@pi.= nu; Black, David ; Deborah Brungard ;= John Dowdell ; Norman Finn ; Subir Das ; Henrik Austad Subject: RE: DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103 I claim we now have a quorum (thank you David and Loa) and a meeting time: Wednesday (tomorrow) at 2pm. I hope more of y'all will join us. Let us meet at the tables outside the Terminal Room on the 9th floor North = side, near "Apartment 1-4" rooms. If I can find an actual room between now = and then I'll let you know. Thanks, Ethan. From: detnet > On B= ehalf Of Grossman, Ethan A. Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2018 9:30 AM To: detnet@ietf.org Cc: rt-dt-security@ietf.org; stewart.bryant= @gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseewal) >; Daniel Harkins >; loa@pi.nu Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103 Hi All, Recent IESG draft reviews have resulted in a number of comments about how t= o handle the Security Considerations sections of the various drafts. Also n= ow that the data plane technologies have settled down to IP and MPLS, we ne= ed some strategy on what aspects of these have security implications unique= to DetNet. I would really like to meet up this week with anyone who has any interest i= n DetNet Security. If you email me back I can put a group meeting together,= or just have individual meetings with people (at which I can take notes on= your thoughts, i.e. you won't have to write anything unless you volunteer = :-) Of course we can also use the list, but since we have the opportunity to me= et face to face we can take advantage of it. Write me back!! Ethan (as DetNet Security Considerations draft editor). --_000_BL0PR06MB4548ACAA0257FF0B6B4E7D21C4C40BL0PR06MB4548namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

We are encamped in the “Apartment” meeti= ng room immediately next door to the Terminal Room.

 

From: Grossman, Ethan A.
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2018 12:52 PM
To: detnet@ietf.org; Tal Mizrahi <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>; = Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Cc: stewart.bryant@gmail.com; Daniel Harkins <dharkins@lounge.org= >; loa@pi.nu; Black, David <David.Black@dell.com>; Deborah Brungar= d <db3546@att.com>; John Dowdell <john.dowdell.ietf@gmail.com>;= Norman Finn <norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com>; Subir Das <sdas@appcomsci.com>; Henrik Austad <henrik@austad.us>
Subject: RE: DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103<= /o:p>

 

I claim we now have a quorum (thank you David and Lo= a) and a meeting time:

Wednesday (tomorrow) at 2pm.

I hope more of y’all will join us.

Let us meet at the tables outside the Terminal Room = on the 9th floor North side, near “Apartment 1-4” ro= oms. If I can find an actual room between now and then I’ll let you k= now.

 

Thanks,

Ethan.

 

From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Grossman, Ethan A.
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2018 9:30 AM
To: detnet@ietf.org
Cc: rt-dt-security@ietf.o= rg; stewart.bryant@gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseewal) <maseewal@cisco.com>; Daniel Harkins <dharkins@lounge.org>; loa@pi.nu
Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103<= o:p>

 

Hi All,

Recent IESG draft reviews have resulted in a number = of comments about how to handle the Security Considerations sections of the= various drafts. Also now that the data plane technologies have settled dow= n to IP and MPLS, we need some strategy on what aspects of these have security implications unique to DetNet.

 

I would really like to meet up this week with anyone= who has any interest in DetNet Security. If you email me back I can put a = group meeting together, or just have individual meetings with people (at wh= ich I can take notes on your thoughts, i.e. you won’t have to write anything unless you volunteer :-) =

 

Of course we can also use the list, but since we hav= e the opportunity to meet face to face we can take advantage of it.

 

Write me back!!

Ethan (as DetNet Security Considerations draft edito= r).

--_000_BL0PR06MB4548ACAA0257FF0B6B4E7D21C4C40BL0PR06MB4548namp_-- From nobody Tue Nov 6 23:59:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BCA2130DD6 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 23:59:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tUIJL44uTirR for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 23:59:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from dggwg11-dlp.huawei.com (lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com [185.176.76.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA552127333 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2018 23:59:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrpml402-hub.exmail.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.66]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id C28EA4F5893E0B404543; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 07:59:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHRPML504-MBS.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.4.240]) by lhrpml402-hub.exmail.huawei.com ([10.201.4.206]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 07:59:05 +0000 From: Norman Finn To: "Grossman, Ethan A." , "detnet@ietf.org" , Tal Mizrahi , Carsten Bormann , Ehsan MohammadPour , Loa Andersson CC: "stewart.bryant@gmail.com" , Daniel Harkins , "Black, David" , "Deborah Brungard" , John Dowdell , "Subir Das" , Henrik Austad Thread-Topic: DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103 Thread-Index: AdR1d2Me5W6V7I50S7itmpzMBMwJvwAGTJ9wADXneeAAASGTxQ== Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 07:59:04 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8016FBC1A@lhrpml504-mbs.exmail.huawei.com> References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.7.94] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8016FBC1Alhrpml504mbsexm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 07:59:18 -0000 --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8016FBC1Alhrpml504mbsexm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Timing security and CQF. Cyclic Queuing and Forwarding (CQF) is described in IEEE Std 802.1Q-2018, A= nnex T. It is a queuing technique in which every forwarding node in the ne= twork is synchronized in time with every other node. In CQF there is a cyc= le time Tc, which must accommodate both the DetNet flows to be transmitted = and a period of dead time. The dead time may includes all of the time from= when a packet is selected for output from a CQF queue until it has been in= serted into a CQF queue at the next hop. The dead time always includes at = least any variability in output selection to first bit received plus clock = inaccuracy. Clock inaccuracy can easily be a significant determinant of th= e minimum cycle time Tc that can be configured, which in turn determines th= e best-case latency that DeetNet + CQF can deliver. The clock inaccuracy u= sed in calculating Tc includes inaccuracies induced by security considerati= ons. For example, a Tc value of 100 microseconds might budget a maximum of= 4 microseconds for clock inaccuracy. See the timing security draft XYXYXYX= for a discussion of how such accuracy can be obtained. Of course, many De= tNet applications have their own requirements for clock synchronization acc= uracy that may be even more stringent that those of DetNet, itself. -- Norm ________________________________ From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2018 11:05 PM To: detnet@ietf.org; Tal Mizrahi; Carsten Bormann; Ehsan MohammadPour; Loa = Andersson Cc: stewart.bryant@gmail.com; Daniel Harkins; loa@pi.nu; Black, David; Debo= rah Brungard; John Dowdell; Norman Finn; Subir Das; Henrik Austad Subject: RE: DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103 We are encamped in the =93Apartment=94 meeting room immediately next door t= o the Terminal Room. From: Grossman, Ethan A. Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2018 12:52 PM To: detnet@ietf.org; Tal Mizrahi ; Carsten Borma= nn Cc: stewart.bryant@gmail.com; Daniel Harkins ; loa@pi.= nu; Black, David ; Deborah Brungard ;= John Dowdell ; Norman Finn ; Subir Das ; Henrik Austad Subject: RE: DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103 I claim we now have a quorum (thank you David and Loa) and a meeting time: Wednesday (tomorrow) at 2pm. I hope more of y=92all will join us. Let us meet at the tables outside the Terminal Room on the 9th floor North = side, near =93Apartment 1-4=94 rooms. If I can find an actual room between = now and then I=92ll let you know. Thanks, Ethan. From: detnet > On B= ehalf Of Grossman, Ethan A. Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2018 9:30 AM To: detnet@ietf.org Cc: rt-dt-security@ietf.org; stewart.bryant= @gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseewal) >; Daniel Harkins >; loa@pi.nu Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103 Hi All, Recent IESG draft reviews have resulted in a number of comments about how t= o handle the Security Considerations sections of the various drafts. Also n= ow that the data plane technologies have settled down to IP and MPLS, we ne= ed some strategy on what aspects of these have security implications unique= to DetNet. I would really like to meet up this week with anyone who has any interest i= n DetNet Security. If you email me back I can put a group meeting together,= or just have individual meetings with people (at which I can take notes on= your thoughts, i.e. you won=92t have to write anything unless you voluntee= r :-) Of course we can also use the list, but since we have the opportunity to me= et face to face we can take advantage of it. Write me back!! Ethan (as DetNet Security Considerations draft editor). --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8016FBC1Alhrpml504mbsexm_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Timing security and CQF.

Cyclic Queuing and Forwarding (CQF) is described in IEEE Std 802.1Q-20= 18, Annex T.  It is a queuing technique in which every forwarding node= in the network is synchronized in time with every other node.  In CQF= there is a cycle time Tc, which must accommodate both the DetNet flows to be transmitted a= nd a period of dead time.  The dead time may includes all of the time = from when a packet is selected for output from a CQF queue until it has bee= n inserted into a CQF queue at the next hop.  The dead time always includes at least any variability in outpu= t selection to first bit received plus clock inaccuracy.  Clock inaccu= racy can easily be a significant determinant of the minimum cycle time Tc that can be configured, which in turn determines the best-case la= tency that DeetNet + CQF can deliver.  The clock inaccuracy used i= n calculating Tc includes inaccuracies induced by security considerations.  F= or example, a Tc value of 100 microseconds might budget a maximum of 4 microsecond= s for clock inaccuracy. See the timing security draft XYXYXYX for a discuss= ion of how such accuracy can be obtained.  Of course, many DetNet appl= ications have their own requirements for clock synchronization accuracy that may be even more stringent that th= ose of DetNet, itself.

-- Norm

From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.co= m]
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2018 11:05 PM
To: detnet@ietf.org; Tal Mizrahi; Carsten Bormann; Ehsan MohammadPou= r; Loa Andersson
Cc: stewart.bryant@gmail.com; Daniel Harkins; loa@pi.nu; Black, Davi= d; Deborah Brungard; John Dowdell; Norman Finn; Subir Das; Henrik Austad Subject: RE: DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103

We are encamped in the =93Apartment=94 meeting room = immediately next door to the Terminal Room.

 

From: Grossman, Ethan A.
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2018 12:52 PM
To: detnet@ietf.org; Tal Mizrahi <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>; = Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Cc: stewart.bryant@gmail.com; Daniel Harkins <dharkins@lounge.org= >; loa@pi.nu; Black, David <David.Black@dell.com>; Deborah Brungar= d <db3546@att.com>; John Dowdell <john.dowdell.ietf@gmail.com>;= Norman Finn <norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com>; Subir Das <sdas@appcomsci.com>; Henrik Austad <henrik@austad.us>
Subject: RE: DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103

 

I claim we now have a quorum (thank you David and Lo= a) and a meeting time:

Wednesday (tomorrow) at 2pm.

I hope more of y=92all will join us.

Let us meet at the tables outside the Terminal Room = on the 9th floor North side, near =93Apartment 1-4=94 rooms. If = I can find an actual room between now and then I=92ll let you know.

 

Thanks,

Ethan.

 

From: detnet <detnet-bounces= @ietf.org> On Behalf Of Grossman, Ethan A.
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2018 9:30 AM
To: detnet@ietf.org
Cc: rt-dt-security@ietf.org; stewart.bryant@gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseewal) <maseewal= @cisco.com>; Daniel Harkins <dharkins@lounge.org>= ;; = loa@pi.nu
Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103<= /p>

 

Hi All,

Recent IESG draft reviews have resulted in a number = of comments about how to handle the Security Considerations sections of the= various drafts. Also now that the data plane technologies have settled dow= n to IP and MPLS, we need some strategy on what aspects of these have security implications unique to DetNet.

 

I would really like to meet up this week with anyone= who has any interest in DetNet Security. If you email me back I can put a = group meeting together, or just have individual meetings with people (at wh= ich I can take notes on your thoughts, i.e. you won=92t have to write anything unless you volunteer :-)

 

Of course we can also use the list, but since we hav= e the opportunity to meet face to face we can take advantage of it.

 

Write me back!!

Ethan (as DetNet Security Considerations draft edito= r).

--_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8016FBC1Alhrpml504mbsexm_-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 00:14:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6037D1286D9 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 00:14:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nGZPFBf9KJye for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 00:14:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from dggwg11-dlp.huawei.com (lhrrg11-dlp.huawei.com [185.176.76.241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9BE5112777C for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 00:14:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrpml401-hub.exmail.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.66]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id E444688C12A9CFE25289; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 08:14:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHRPML504-MBS.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.4.240]) by lhrpml401-hub.exmail.huawei.com ([10.201.4.160]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 08:14:27 +0000 From: Norman Finn To: "Grossman, Ethan A." , "detnet@ietf.org" , Tal Mizrahi , Carsten Bormann , Ehsan MohammadPour , Loa Andersson CC: "stewart.bryant@gmail.com" , Daniel Harkins , "Black, David" , "Deborah Brungard" , John Dowdell , "Subir Das" , Henrik Austad Thread-Topic: DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103 Thread-Index: AdR1d2Me5W6V7I50S7itmpzMBMwJvwAGTJ9wADXneeAAAkcORQ== Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 08:14:26 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8016FBC50@lhrpml504-mbs.exmail.huawei.com> References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.7.94] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8016FBC50lhrpml504mbsexm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 08:14:36 -0000 --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8016FBC50lhrpml504mbsexm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Time-scheduled transmissions DetNet also allows for IEEE 802.1Q-2018 Clause 34 time-scheduled transmissi= ons. In this technique, the opening and closing of a queue's ability to tr= ansmit packets is turned on and off with a schedule that has a nominal prec= ision of 1 ns, although an implementation can have lower precision. This s= chedule is synchronized to some accuracy. The accuracy required of the tim= e synchronization need not be much more accurate that the precision of the = transmitters. The overall accuracy requirement will depend on the applicat= ion, of course (see the DetNet use cases draft). Application requiring an = accuracy of 100 ns are quite common, and 10 ns not unusual. -- Norm ________________________________ From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2018 11:05 PM To: detnet@ietf.org; Tal Mizrahi; Carsten Bormann; Ehsan MohammadPour; Loa = Andersson Cc: stewart.bryant@gmail.com; Daniel Harkins; loa@pi.nu; Black, David; Debo= rah Brungard; John Dowdell; Norman Finn; Subir Das; Henrik Austad Subject: RE: DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103 We are encamped in the =93Apartment=94 meeting room immediately next door t= o the Terminal Room. From: Grossman, Ethan A. Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2018 12:52 PM To: detnet@ietf.org; Tal Mizrahi ; Carsten Borma= nn Cc: stewart.bryant@gmail.com; Daniel Harkins ; loa@pi.= nu; Black, David ; Deborah Brungard ;= John Dowdell ; Norman Finn ; Subir Das ; Henrik Austad Subject: RE: DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103 I claim we now have a quorum (thank you David and Loa) and a meeting time: Wednesday (tomorrow) at 2pm. I hope more of y=92all will join us. Let us meet at the tables outside the Terminal Room on the 9th floor North = side, near =93Apartment 1-4=94 rooms. If I can find an actual room between = now and then I=92ll let you know. Thanks, Ethan. From: detnet > On B= ehalf Of Grossman, Ethan A. Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2018 9:30 AM To: detnet@ietf.org Cc: rt-dt-security@ietf.org; stewart.bryant= @gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseewal) >; Daniel Harkins >; loa@pi.nu Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103 Hi All, Recent IESG draft reviews have resulted in a number of comments about how t= o handle the Security Considerations sections of the various drafts. Also n= ow that the data plane technologies have settled down to IP and MPLS, we ne= ed some strategy on what aspects of these have security implications unique= to DetNet. I would really like to meet up this week with anyone who has any interest i= n DetNet Security. If you email me back I can put a group meeting together,= or just have individual meetings with people (at which I can take notes on= your thoughts, i.e. you won=92t have to write anything unless you voluntee= r :-) Of course we can also use the list, but since we have the opportunity to me= et face to face we can take advantage of it. Write me back!! Ethan (as DetNet Security Considerations draft editor). --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8016FBC50lhrpml504mbsexm_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Time-scheduled transmissions

DetNet also allows for IEEE 802.1Q-2018 Clause 34 time-scheduled trans= missions.  In this technique, the opening and closing of a queue's abi= lity to transmit packets is turned on and off with a schedule that has a no= minal precision of 1 ns, although an implementation can have lower precision.  This schedule is synchroniz= ed to some accuracy.  The accuracy required of the time synchronizatio= n need not be much more accurate that the precision of the transmitters.&nb= sp; The overall accuracy requirement will depend on the application, of course (see the DetNet use cases draft).  Appl= ication requiring an accuracy of 100 ns are quite common, and 10 ns not unu= sual.

-- Norm

From: Grossman, Ethan A. [eagros@dolby.co= m]
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2018 11:05 PM
To: detnet@ietf.org; Tal Mizrahi; Carsten Bormann; Ehsan MohammadPou= r; Loa Andersson
Cc: stewart.bryant@gmail.com; Daniel Harkins; loa@pi.nu; Black, Davi= d; Deborah Brungard; John Dowdell; Norman Finn; Subir Das; Henrik Austad Subject: RE: DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103

We are encamped in the =93Apartment=94 meeting room = immediately next door to the Terminal Room.

 

From: Grossman, Ethan A.
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2018 12:52 PM
To: detnet@ietf.org; Tal Mizrahi <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>; = Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Cc: stewart.bryant@gmail.com; Daniel Harkins <dharkins@lounge.org= >; loa@pi.nu; Black, David <David.Black@dell.com>; Deborah Brungar= d <db3546@att.com>; John Dowdell <john.dowdell.ietf@gmail.com>;= Norman Finn <norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com>; Subir Das <sdas@appcomsci.com>; Henrik Austad <henrik@austad.us>
Subject: RE: DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103

 

I claim we now have a quorum (thank you David and Lo= a) and a meeting time:

Wednesday (tomorrow) at 2pm.

I hope more of y=92all will join us.

Let us meet at the tables outside the Terminal Room = on the 9th floor North side, near =93Apartment 1-4=94 rooms. If = I can find an actual room between now and then I=92ll let you know.

 

Thanks,

Ethan.

 

From: detnet <detnet-bounces= @ietf.org> On Behalf Of Grossman, Ethan A.
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2018 9:30 AM
To: detnet@ietf.org
Cc: rt-dt-security@ietf.org; stewart.bryant@gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseewal) <maseewal= @cisco.com>; Daniel Harkins <dharkins@lounge.org>= ;; = loa@pi.nu
Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Security Considerations Meetup at IETF 103<= /p>

 

Hi All,

Recent IESG draft reviews have resulted in a number = of comments about how to handle the Security Considerations sections of the= various drafts. Also now that the data plane technologies have settled dow= n to IP and MPLS, we need some strategy on what aspects of these have security implications unique to DetNet.

 

I would really like to meet up this week with anyone= who has any interest in DetNet Security. If you email me back I can put a = group meeting together, or just have individual meetings with people (at wh= ich I can take notes on your thoughts, i.e. you won=92t have to write anything unless you volunteer :-)

 

Of course we can also use the list, but since we hav= e the opportunity to meet face to face we can take advantage of it.

 

Write me back!!

Ethan (as DetNet Security Considerations draft edito= r).

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To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: DetNet slides Thread-Index: AdR2kx5AuMDzojmkQ96/jy1HIjZkAw== Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 12:17:47 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-dg-ref: PG1ldGE+PGF0IG5tPSJib2R5Lmh0bWwiIHA9ImM6XHVzZXJzXGVhZ3Jvc1xhcHBkYXRhXHJvYW1pbmdcMDlkODQ5YjYtMzJkMy00YTQwLTg1ZWUtNmI4NGJhMjllMzViXG1zZ3NcbXNnLTIwMDk3NmExLWUyODctMTFlOC1iZDJhLWFjYmMzMjdhNTFjNlxhbWUtdGVzdFwyMDA5NzZhMi1lMjg3LTExZTgtYmQyYS1hY2JjMzI3YTUxYzZib2R5Lmh0bWwiIHN6PSIyMDc1IiB0PSIxMzE4NjA2NjY2NDkxMDM1NjYiIGg9Ii91QXJ2Z1dEMFQ4S1Rhc1FsY3dzRURhRHdYdz0iIGlkPSIiIGJsPSIwIiBibz0iMSIvPjwvbWV0YT4= authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=eagros@dolby.com; x-originating-ip: [31.133.148.130] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BL0PR06MB4689; 6:xJGkXsGumtUULP6vKxptQcf0rN5nh8MC4WwhY4RH4Tiv9SVq2fx6r+oz0LaMLi0AgdQVzO87pxp0J+zM/jDzLSMnwIBh3bb6OkHPRnweALmQHuvB+KECeoQz0Wqq7Wj9Px6CW048Je4Mu3x7TjdwPEJ1bz8oFozthXGiQLEYk7KDmC7b018vbtxoqCBTsH8bcLBp0xzAg88FZ5k24wH2WlIETB7/Fu+RRRX/xX8jzFIr0QJdNfCvU1wG6wI+bUw2CzQjOL27V6fGZQPUp5Ge24dP0Kq2qM3NXWELKfdPK23e2SB7LqFj5a2Nmez8NBJaLJaaSg+9hVnjJTKY+GkaczACoE9cQWrhPkv1f5keSJV4hQyEfEddMgX0tXexyfPL2yKWhlCqGMVbSHQdFv5CBNbi3slhyvOmZ2vyLR07pEvEcCbnE1mKOE1cjQa5WwtLEYptLyNe80OYImYrA/Fj4Q==; 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boundary="_000_BL0PR06MB4548BA1A8442981C5DB592ECC4C40BL0PR06MB4548namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: dolby.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c025907b-9512-415c-613c-08d644ab078c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Nov 2018 12:17:47.4990 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 05408d25-cd0d-40c8-8962-5462de64a318 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR06MB4689 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] DetNet slides X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 12:17:52 -0000 --_000_BL0PR06MB4548BA1A8442981C5DB592ECC4C40BL0PR06MB4548namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have now uploaded all of the slides I have, which is all of them except D= ata Plane. Presenters, please check that the slides on the data tracker sit= e are what you expect, and if not please let me know. https://datatracker.i= etf.org/meeting/103/session/detnet. Thanks, Ethan. --_000_BL0PR06MB4548BA1A8442981C5DB592ECC4C40BL0PR06MB4548namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have now uploaded all of the slides I have, which = is all of them except Data Plane. Presenters, please check that the slides = on the data tracker site are what you expect, and if not please let me know= . https:/= /datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/session/detnet.

Thanks,

Ethan.

 

 

--_000_BL0PR06MB4548BA1A8442981C5DB592ECC4C40BL0PR06MB4548namp_-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 05:07:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3A121274D0 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 05:07:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t2I0O3fFGMQL for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 05:07:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.25.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 477FC127133 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 05:07:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw11.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.11]) by gproxy1.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BB7640288935 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 06:07:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id KNY2gbHM7d20TKNY2gVlGI; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 06:07:07 -0700 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 X-Authority-Analysis: $(_cmae_reason DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=m8VykCOcRF0h4CBA3GNnqsUI0kwMdTsoi8dHsaUv8PU=; b=aJGjbnz8c9TUfyAi7rYK3fY0k+ tRx4CWHkPRP1toyLSjmTcRcyISPi78oeNI6qoXYsvnxEzq14dHFkj5EM3QBsM/neSwStGTo6svPvn 4QWEQyEsy04eZGWQ4o0H90MsZ; Received: from pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.106.211]:41638 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gKNY2-001DBr-Es; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 06:07:06 -0700 To: "Black, David" , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= , "detnet@ietf.org" References: From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <4ce74c7f-09c0-cd54-c128-9405687b9d5e@labn.net> Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 20:07:00 +0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.106.211 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gKNY2-001DBr-Es X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.106.211]:41638 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 3 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers for detnet flow identification X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 13:07:16 -0000 Hi, David and I took advantage of being together this week and came up with a proposed resolution to this. The proposal is as follows: - ECN bits will *not* be mentioned as being used as part of flow identifications - DSCP configuration will use value lists, not masks - For the same 5-tuple value sender SHOULD NOT mix DSCP values used for DetNet with non-DetNet (DSCP) values Please let me/us know what you think, Lou Thanks to David for the discussion. On 11/6/2018 10:48 AM, Black, David wrote: > > Hi Varga, > > Im pleased that we mostly agree, and Ill be happy to discuss the PHB > further. > > This discussion may also provide insight into my concern about 5-tuple > vs. 6-tuple flow identification it looks like we have two different > sorts of flow identification under discussion: > > - Identification of a flow in the network in general (network flow or > microflow in RFC 2475). > > - Identification of a flow that undergoes DetNet processing at a > DetNet node (DetNet flow). > > At the moment, were using 5-tuples (src & dst addresses, protocol, > src & dst ports) for network flow identification and 6-tuples (5-tuple > + DSCP) for Detnet flow identification. In other words, were > effectively saying that a network flow (defined by a 5-tuple), becomes > a DetNet flow when a DetNet DSCP is added to request DetNet forwarding > by the network. Theres a level of indirection here caused by the > Diffserv architecture a DetNet DSCP designates a DetNet PHB, and any > a packet marked with a DetNet DSCP receives DetNet forwarding at a > DetNet node. > > That said, my concern is that the 6-tuple term for a DetNet flow seems > counter-intuitive to me, even though the DetNet forwarding plane in a > DetNet node may well be matching on all 6 elements involved in order > to decide whether to provide DetNet forwarding to each arriving packet. > > IMHO, a better description would be that a network flow (5-tuple) is > being uniformly marked with a DetNet DSCP to request DetNet treatment > from the network (and presumably DetNet router hardware is matching on > DetNet DSCPs to dispatch inbound packets to DetNet forwarding logic > instead of conventional forwarding logic). The counter-intuitivity > of the 6-tuple term arises in the error case when someone uses a > clever marking of a single 5-tuple flow with a mixture of DetNet and > non-DetNet DSCPs. I believe that the result of that cleverness is > not multiple flows (which would be implied by the 6-tuple term), > even though it may look like that in a DetNet node implementation. I > think the result is better described as a single not-entirely-DetNet > flow (defined by a 5-tuple) that receives bizarre forwarding treatment > at DetNet nodes - some of the packets get DetNet forwarding treatment > and some get other forwarding treatment, so in a loaded network, > significant reordering is likely, and the receiver is probably not > going to be happy with the resulting packet arrival order. > > If this all makes sense, that clever mixing of DetNet and non-DetNet > DSCPs in a single flow (hence mixing DetNet and non-DetNet forwarding > behavior in a single flow) deserves a SHOULD NOT statement in the > draft, with a warning about the bizarre forwarding behavior at DetNet > nodes that is a likely result, which seems like a better thing to do > than my original suggestion for some sort of prohibition on mixing > DetNet and non-DetNet packets in the same 5-tuple. > > Thanks, --David > > *From:* Balzs Varga A [mailto:balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com] > *Sent:* Sunday, November 4, 2018 11:13 PM > *To:* Black, David; detnet@ietf.org > *Subject:* RE: IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP > headers for detnet flow identification > > Hi David, > > Many thanks for your comments and suggestions. This is definitely > something we must fix. > > Just two general statement as background: > > - ECN was not considered so far to be useful for DetNet flows. DetNet > flows expect zero congestion loss. > > DetNet sources do not consider to react on ECN. > > - Masking for flow identification was considered as a general rule for > the tuples (i.e. not DSCP specific). > > So, regarding your proposals > > A, No usage of ECN for flow identification: AGREE > > B, DSCP list instead of bitmask: AGREE, it can provide the same result. > > C, New DiffServ PHB for DetNet: Agree in principle, lets discuss the > details > > Thanks > > Balazs > > *From:* detnet *On Behalf Of *Black, David > *Sent:* Sunday, November 4, 2018 11:27 PM > *To:* detnet@ietf.org > *Subject:* [Detnet] IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in > IP headers for detnet flow identification > > We have a problem here > > The detnet IP solution draft (draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-ip-01.txt) has > this to say about > > use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers for detnet flow identification: > > 6.1.1.4. IPv4 Type of Service and IPv6 Traffic Class Fields > > These fields are used to support Differentiated Services [RFC2474] > > and Explicit Congestion Notification [RFC3168]. Implementations of > > this document MUST support DetNet flow identification based on the > > IPv4 Type of Service field when processing IPv4 packets, and the IPv6 > > Traffic Class Field when processing IPv6 packets. Implementations > > MUST support bimask based matching, where one (1) values in the > > bitmask indicate which subset of the bits in the field are to be used > > in determining a match. Note that a zero (0) value as a bitmask > > effectively means that these fields are ignored. > > That bitmask approach wont work, as it violates both RFC 2474 and RFC > 3168. > > Starting with ECN (RFC 3168) the 2-bit ECN field is intended to > enable ECN functionality to be > > applied to any flow, and the contents of the ECN field can be changed > by any router. Using ECN > > field values to identify separate flows is wrong, see Section 5 of RFC > 3168, which specifies the > > current use of that field.. > > That leaves the 6-bit DSCP field, which is defined by RFC 2474. The > above bitmask approach is > > prohibited by the following paragraph in section 3 of RFC 2474: > > Implementors should note that the DSCP field is six bits wide. DS- > > compliant nodes MUST select PHBs by matching against the entire 6-bit > > DSCP field, e.g., by treating the value of the field as a table index > > which is used to select a particular packet handling mechanism which > > has been implemented in that device. The value of the CU field MUST > > be ignored by PHB selection. The DSCP field is defined as an > > unstructured field to facilitate the definition of future per-hop > > behaviors. > > The CU field is now the ECN field (see RFC 3168). My reading is that > the current section 6.1.1.4 text in > > the IP solutions draft has managed to violate all three MUST > requirements in that RFC 2474 > > paragraph, which is impressive and not in a good way. > > I suggest that several things be done: > > a)Abandon use of the ECN field for detnet flow identification. > > b)For the DSCP field, change from a bitmask approach to a list of DSCPs. > > a.I would note that a carefully chosen DSCP list can be implemented > via a bitmask. > > c)Define one or more Diffserv PHBs that realize DetNet behavior. > > a.I suspect that much of the content needed for this already exists in the > detnet drafts, so this should not be a from scratch exercise. > > I would also caution that the current IP solution draft text on > 6-tuples for flow identification appears > > to allow multiple separate detnet flows that differ only in DSCP to > use the same IP 5-tuple (source & > > destination addresses, transport protocol, source & destination > ports). I believe that this also ought > > to be prohibited, as Diffserv uses 5-tuples for flow identification - > see the definition and use of the > > term microflow in RFC 2475. > > A quick glance at the MPLS solution suggests that it does not have an > analogous problem with the TC > > field in labels as the TC field does not appear to be used for detnet > flow identification. > > Thanks, --David > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > David L. Black, Senior Distinguished Engineer > > Dell EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA 01748 > > +1 (774) 350-9323 *New * Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754 > > David.Black@dell.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Wed Nov 7 18:08:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0284D1292F1; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 18:08:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C9HzIbVeOtdE; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 18:08:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A767130DD8; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 18:08:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id E69FEDDD61D92; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 02:08:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMI421-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.150) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 02:08:30 +0000 Received: from DGGEMI529-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.83]) by dggemi421-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.150]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:08:24 +0800 From: "qiangli (D)" To: "detnet@ietf.org" , "103attendees-bounces@ietf.org" <103attendees-bounces@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: DetNet Prototype is demonstrated at 2nd floor now Thread-Index: AdR3B7k58xr7PiRfQuSoUcYtgZQZQg== Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 02:08:23 +0000 Message-ID: <06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2AD4E47C@dggemi529-mbs.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.126.173.9] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Prototype is demonstrated at 2nd floor now X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 02:08:45 -0000 Hi all, We are demonstrating a DetNet prototype at 2nd floor coffee break region no= w, welcome to join us~ Best, Cristina QIANG From nobody Wed Nov 7 19:34:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6FB3130E83 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 19:34:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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boundary="_000_BL0PR06MB45487A9A0B62C1760218860CC4C50BL0PR06MB4548namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: dolby.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6cf980be-8357-4795-ac48-08d6452b15bd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 08 Nov 2018 03:34:26.9384 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 05408d25-cd0d-40c8-8962-5462de64a318 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR06MB4436 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Security Considerations for IP and MPLS meetup notes - IETF 103 7Nov18 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 03:34:35 -0000 --_000_BL0PR06MB45487A9A0B62C1760218860CC4C50BL0PR06MB4548namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, Here is my summary of the DetNet Security Considerations for IP and MPLS me= etup yesterday. If you have any comments or additions, please let us know. Best, Ethan (as DetNet Security Considerations Draft Editor). P.S. Ehsan, get on the list! :- ) --------------------------------------------------- Meeting: DetNet Security - IP and MPLS dataplane technologies security con= siderations. Date: IETF 103 - 7Nov18. Present: David Black, Ethan Grossman, Norm Finn, Ehsan Mohammadpour, Tal Mi= zrahi Agenda: Enumerate security considerations that are specific to the use of I= P and MPLS as DetNet data plane technologies. 1. It may be possible for an attacker to add additional fields to (or us= e specific values for) an IP header (outside of the 5-tuple and DSCP value)= resulting in routers diverting such packets away from DetNet data path to = the router's control processor to figure out what to do with them. This cou= ld be used to mount a delay attack on a DetNet. IPv6 has such header extens= ions. 2. IP is store-and-forward, thus there are queues and the allowed possib= ility that packets arriving late will be queued. This is in contrast to MPL= S which has very low tolerance for variance in packet timing, i.e. late pac= kets will be dropped since there is essentially no buffering (ask Stewart B= ryant about where it says this in the MPLS spec?). One implication is that = buffering provides an attack surface for delaying packets. Another is that = because IP can be run over links that are more subject to delays, it is lik= ely that it will be run over such links, and as noted above, such links pro= vide a larger attack surface for delay attacks. 3. DetNet over IP will require an "MPLS-class" control plane for routing= over fixed paths, which is relatively new to IP, and thus likely to be exp= loited. 4. Attacking the control plane is an obvious way to attack DetNet. One w= ay to mitigate this is to isolate the control plane from outside interferen= ce as much as possible. 5. We agreed that this material was appropriate for inclusion in the IP = dataplane draft (as opposed to the existing DetNet Security draft). 6. It was opined that comparisons should be between what an IP router wo= uld do by default against DetNet requirements, i.e. not compared against MP= LS. It was also noted that there are places in the IP draft that mention MP= LS, and that perhaps such comparisons are in some way informative. Ethan cu= rrently feels that such comparisons are informative and so they have not be= en eliminated from these notes, although they could be eliminated from the = final text if the group decides to. 7. IP can run over badly managed gear, though DetNet requires/assumes a = well-managed network. The mitigation is "don't do that". Controlled Environ= ment (RFC 8085 UDP guidelines, applies beyond UDP), removes a lot of things= that can go wrong with IP networks because something is watching out for i= t. 8. There was a discussion about whether we can defer discussion of time = base security to e.g. Time Protocols Security draft. This is not specific t= o IP or MPLS and is thus not included here. 9. The point was raised that if DetNet is running on a link for which th= ere is arbitration for access to the link that this could be an attack surf= ace. However DetNet requires a deterministic link, i.e. not an arbitrated o= ne, so this was not considered a valid concern. 10. We would like to get Stewart (for his deep MPLS knowledge) and David = in same room - could sort out some things in more detail. Stewart and David= to figure out when to do this, e.g. at the DetNet session. ----------------------------------------------- --_000_BL0PR06MB45487A9A0B62C1760218860CC4C50BL0PR06MB4548namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi All,

Here is my summary of the DetNet Security Considerat= ions for IP and MPLS meetup yesterday. If you have any comments or addition= s, please let us know.

Best,

Ethan (as DetNet Security Considerations Draft Edito= r).

P.S. Ehsan, get on the list! :- )

---------------------------------------------------<= o:p>

Meeting: DetNet Security – IP and MPLS datapla= ne technologies security  considerations.

Date: IETF 103 -  7Nov18.  

Present: David Black, Ethan Grossman, Norm Finn, Ehs= an Mohammadpour, Tal Mizrahi

Agenda: Enumerate security considerations that are s= pecific to the use of IP and MPLS as DetNet data plane technologies.  =

  1. It may = be possible for an attacker to add additional fields to (or use specific va= lues for) an IP header (outside of the 5-tuple and DSCP value) resulting in= routers diverting such packets away from DetNet data path to the router’s control processor to figure ou= t what to do with them. This could be used to mount a delay attack on a Det= Net. IPv6 has such header extensions.
  2. IP is store-and-forward, thus there are queues and the allowed pos= sibility that packets arriving late will be queued. This is in contrast to = MPLS which has very low tolerance for variance in packet timing, i.e. late packets will be dropped since there is essentially no bu= ffering (ask Stewart Bryant about where it says this in the MPLS spec?). On= e implication is that buffering provides an attack surface for delaying pac= kets. Another is that because IP can be run over links that are more subject to delays, it is likely that i= t will be run over such links, and as noted above, such links provide a lar= ger attack surface for delay attacks.
  3. DetNet over IP will require an “MPLS-class” control pl= ane for routing over fixed paths, which is relatively new to IP, and thus l= ikely to be exploited.
  4. Attacking the control plane is an obvious way to attack DetNet. On= e way to mitigate this is to isolate the control plane from outside interfe= rence as much as possible.
  5. We agreed that this material was appropriate for inclusion in the = IP dataplane draft (as opposed to the existing DetNet Security draft).
  6. It was opined that comparisons should be between what an IP router= would do by default against DetNet requirements, i.e. not compared against= MPLS. It was also noted that there are places in the IP draft that mention MPLS, and that perhaps such comparisons are in some = way informative. Ethan currently feels that such comparisons are informativ= e and so they have not been eliminated from these notes, although they coul= d be eliminated from the final text if the group decides to.  
  7. IP can run over badly managed gear= , though DetNet requires/assumes a well-managed network. The mitigation is = “don’t do that”. Controlled Environment (RFC 8085 UDP gui= delines, applies beyond UDP), removes a lot of things that can go wrong with IP networks because somethi= ng is watching out for it.
  8. There was a discussion about whether we = can defer discussion of time base security to e.g. Time Protocols Security = draft. This is not specific to IP or MPLS and is thus not included here.
  9. The point was raised that if DetNet is running on a link for which= there is arbitration for access to the link that this could be an attack s= urface. However DetNet requires a deterministic link, i.e. not an arbitrated one, so this was not considered a valid concern.
  10. We would like to get Stewart (for his deep MPLS knowledge) and David = in same room – could sort out some things in more detail. Stewart and= David to figure out when to do this, e.g. at the DetNet session.

-----------------------------------------------=

 

--_000_BL0PR06MB45487A9A0B62C1760218860CC4C50BL0PR06MB4548namp_-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 20:58:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CF7D130E2D for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 20:58:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YVAomlJOtKKK for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 20:58:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x72b.google.com (mail-qk1-x72b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68DCC127332 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 20:58:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x72b.google.com with SMTP id d19so24559280qkg.5 for ; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 20:58:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=kWgHyv6gPTEKynwMDoeQt1Z48WeWLuAL5+7MgPJdrls=; b=Aaf6fliFFVcMFohdJ9XMy85z8dryg/saDXN+AM+h2NihAO51yB1S2+aVsZA8CimOcW rt08bbXPPrcKAmgnMannRZXnR5a96Eb3iWBXESjcoUWUvUbGQ0c64PzNRZ+UDGrJ4efE zJ8SfylsEMHs3VZkdU0kpV5pDW02eWnaY+K3eVtK1UaTxiAx0D/vzd4eilS3JtpVN/gZ NZtnnkHGLGNqAdIwC+HuIqXUUK9Bao60Iek2nDpn6POZh+bbOa+01DL37ns/MS03XFhQ QjyvhesceX8iUGlsoW0giuoNvfgXB/pnceoZsNVc/5msmezkwbx+EvRc/MuNMBKWYo55 dBBw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kWgHyv6gPTEKynwMDoeQt1Z48WeWLuAL5+7MgPJdrls=; b=PQS81p0xq08+7stbP0w2GoH+L/1tLRcp/I0bkJSDFo1tROnH87pLRklj50km8qb+HZ mXz/B/WkXE7AC82pSxn0GWHk2kH4fCp34BLo6Gp7j2f+quXscSGqjUXe5NCvkwMjUl41 CJ0qo2ADT8l3b1lAjwOmaEfrAt+LUAj92hWG0iEvJHKJECDpp5Ow7PZcsDDR+3I81xbq 9yBmLJZ8cp3ayf2PsPVH3sdafPsFqxcfvmOQp0G2O7c2pmWh8c6uD9nPl+Ouq5Uqctc5 zhxm5GUk2sWiAd2rasls6lv0IpoOywiBufFnv1jgBW7DYjd5yowQl5uMJMT0gJeWqF8N Ibjg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gIe9vaAtS07jBGTS1O9y7DPSeKNckIMgGlPpf7V0e9Ni1arC0// DwCkXelj7rISjDZ0l86/CNEo4H+ATGaX6VFs4Z8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5cubMG5KJWz9eEpkKWYZ4TK/5ynqgopKNdvWQ0P2KV98jrDMs27OZ6tstiyknhZiz0gsLyk14Ql0MTojPA55A0= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5156:: with SMTP id h22mr2901063qtn.81.1541653106506; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 20:58:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4ce74c7f-09c0-cd54-c128-9405687b9d5e@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <4ce74c7f-09c0-cd54-c128-9405687b9d5e@labn.net> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 11:58:15 +0700 Message-ID: To: Lou Berger Cc: "Black, David" , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Varga_A?= , detnet WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c7bf9e057a20152b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers for detnet flow identification X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 04:58:29 -0000 --000000000000c7bf9e057a20152b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Lou, I just talked this over with David and I agree with the proosal. Thanks, Andy On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 8:07 PM Lou Berger wrote: > Hi, > > David and I took advantage of being together this week and came up > with a proposed resolution to this. The proposal is as follows: > > - ECN bits will *not* be mentioned as being used as part of flow > identifications > - DSCP configuration will use value lists, not masks > - For the same 5-tuple value sender SHOULD NOT mix DSCP values used for > DetNet with non-DetNet (DSCP) values > > Please let me/us know what you think, > > Lou > > --000000000000c7bf9e057a20152b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lou,

I just talked this over with David= and I agree with the proosal.

Thanks,
A= ndy

On Wed, Nov 7, 201= 8 at 8:07 PM Lou Berger <lberger@lab= n.net> wrote:
Hi,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 David and I took advantage of being together this = week and came up
with a proposed resolution to this.=C2=A0 The proposal is as follows:

- ECN bits will *not* be mentioned as being used as part of flow
identifications
- DSCP configuration will use value lists, not masks
- For the same 5-tuple value sender SHOULD NOT mix DSCP values used for DetNet with non-DetNet (DSCP) values

Please let me/us know what you think,

Lou

--000000000000c7bf9e057a20152b-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 21:11:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B12E4130EF9 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 21:11:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 37UF8EHy_a-m for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 21:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.23.142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99B6F130F18 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 21:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw11.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.11]) by gproxy4.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B22A1776EE for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 22:05:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id KcVqgxMOgd20TKcVqgrkWo; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 22:05:50 -0700 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 X-Authority-Analysis: $(_cmae_reason DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Subject:References:In-Reply-To: Message-ID:Date:CC:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=f0HfCbdVoheoxm2nGELbYv7DvNWnnyWeR3UFCXBilYY=; b=dcHGu4iL1sxQwoCdlaWApu6f55 RITutVeks3JbOGmcbv4R+qhYPoHWAmK+/6DlM+y4VyhGsklpb1ba56gy3mcxe2vn3fGjxGEc3yNKj +bhyI4g4TWD8DOCX1CI/Ztooc; Received: from [1.47.45.53] (port=61303 helo=[10.3.36.4]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gKcVp-0017oK-HM; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 22:05:49 -0700 From: Lou Berger To: "Andrew G. Malis" CC: detnet WG , "Black, David" , =?UTF-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBWYXJnYSBB?= Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 12:05:44 +0700 Message-ID: <166f1b63c40.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: References: <4ce74c7f-09c0-cd54-c128-9405687b9d5e@labn.net> User-Agent: AquaMail/1.17.0-1318 (build: 101700009) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------166f1b63f851a7627ceee56362" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 1.47.45.53 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gKcVp-0017oK-HM X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([10.3.36.4]) [1.47.45.53]:61303 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 5 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers for detnet flow identification X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 05:11:51 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------166f1b63f851a7627ceee56362 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Excellent! One thing I forgot to add here, and on today's slide is that this version/iteration of the IP will say that all routers along the path are presumed/required to support the DetNet ip solution. Lou ---------- On November 8, 2018 11:59:00 AM "Andrew G. Malis" wrote: > Lou, > > I just talked this over with David and I agree with the proosal. > > Thanks, > Andy > > On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 8:07 PM Lou Berger wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> David and I took advantage of being together this week and came up >> with a proposed resolution to this. The proposal is as follows: >> >> - ECN bits will *not* be mentioned as being used as part of flow >> identifications >> - DSCP configuration will use value lists, not masks >> - For the same 5-tuple value sender SHOULD NOT mix DSCP values used for >> DetNet with non-DetNet (DSCP) values >> >> Please let me/us know what you think, >> >> Lou >> >> > > > > ---------- > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > ------------166f1b63f851a7627ceee56362 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Excellent!

One thing I forgot to add her= e, and on today's slide is that this version/iteration of the IP will say t= hat all routers along the path are presumed/required to support the DetNet = ip solution.

Lou

On November 8, 2018 11:59:00 AM "Andrew G. Malis" <ag= malis@gmail.com> wrote:

Lou,

I just talked this over with David= and I agree with the proosal.

Thanks,
A= ndy

On Wed, Nov 7, 201= 8 at 8:07 PM Lou Berger <lberger@lab= n.net> wrote:
Hi,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 David and I took advantage of being together this = week and came up
with a proposed resolution to this.=C2=A0 The proposal is as follows:

- ECN bits will *not* be mentioned as being used as part of flow
identifications
- DSCP configuration will use value lists, not masks
- For the same 5-tuple value sender SHOULD NOT mix DSCP values used for DetNet with non-DetNet (DSCP) values

Please let me/us know what you think,

Lou

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
------------166f1b63f851a7627ceee56362-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 22:23:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 980EB130E10 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 22:23:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id skEAs3AtGKbI for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 22:23:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22e.google.com (mail-lj1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0DD1130E04 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 22:23:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id k19-v6so16945361lji.11 for ; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 22:23:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Ug64hg7DHqEPup5VC8UwGXWIicPJG4IDMcIp2K1QuyE=; b=MJGkw1LYLNo4EI7piOWWsPPn8eq7W9hyOmAfYxsvhccSezSibcwgLQnMVBhdqhUfmx PsFTEcMof+Ga0L+SFT+/7Q4m4OOQ8YV2mHKUs1teBLYWCpLNfAcRNGoji2qbocmBdw4Z JvndaqZsf23kfPj2rhp0dhBlRf0bo9yWICcXlrKmPO3V/J8GmOg0Ke1Bl+8XAjxt7dgY pj8D2JGO++zRgpwUXitEgI3/JQd1JcB39yo5l78Ctgv7vVUsXKmoJAO7uClOAXxTAqVl muHkGaZHcPrW+jDlQRRvw6jXZLtdmxPk64tPRfBSjUsERBV4kiiFFpTGlq5PaIuo95jB NFGQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Ug64hg7DHqEPup5VC8UwGXWIicPJG4IDMcIp2K1QuyE=; b=ZSsIIUtSLyhYGVO9S3G6JP5C9062tGWu7HqUV11oU8FVMTTl8rO9tHSP1v8DuoR9vT hMS8OmJuqsx5D1ck2MlNAcLeUxH/yfdJqHeYgQg7Yvnt1VPRUOL2Xn3iBvgJ75Ip0WnA 2cPaSWcu5rgrf1yDwDyvq7IOuEUrL89/ecYwfKkQxE3+VaSWOp4PkGKsRHGukxhmzCYO duhCl0pHYFZt3H3Ev3gGOTYsWCGT0irWgWzvK3zjz3cnfubDwgLQuLy5W/N7Ex7lfewd vb/y3zQmGL243PsLIiKSCpfSKA+fJpRCWfbOnUjUi4i7mFoM5bzHa2MGwNaVXQmzygjQ 0ksg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKsIfcKYEP/KUJESY2C7fS3F+bY12IUf3+7UI58UMdRRP2Liw/J uf13GN+cV0jops5kLY8xXUMRxRicKIlFl41dKwpitbVT X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5fzKcvWkBwiMUzy0O+9NH2m/WXm30GflIac78CemQV/jseXEcAeE4VksXccIOmsjgAcj07ODjACaXmgHC7HuzE= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:7d15:: with SMTP id y21-v6mr1687824ljc.77.1541658186417; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 22:23:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4ce74c7f-09c0-cd54-c128-9405687b9d5e@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <4ce74c7f-09c0-cd54-c128-9405687b9d5e@labn.net> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 13:22:56 +0700 Message-ID: To: Lou Berger Cc: "Black, David" , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Varga?= , DetNet WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000910a40057a2144e5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers for detnet flow identification X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 06:23:13 -0000 --000000000000910a40057a2144e5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Lou, et al., one clarification question: - is it expected that DetNet flows will use several DSCP values or all DetNet services will use one? Regards, Greg On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 8:07 PM Lou Berger wrote: > Hi, > > David and I took advantage of being together this week and came up > with a proposed resolution to this. The proposal is as follows: > > - ECN bits will *not* be mentioned as being used as part of flow > identifications > - DSCP configuration will use value lists, not masks > - For the same 5-tuple value sender SHOULD NOT mix DSCP values used for > DetNet with non-DetNet (DSCP) values > > Please let me/us know what you think, > > Lou > > Thanks to David for the discussion. > > On 11/6/2018 10:48 AM, Black, David wrote: > > > > Hi Varga, > > > > I=E2=80=99m pleased that we mostly agree, and I=E2=80=99ll be happy to = discuss the PHB > > further. > > > > This discussion may also provide insight into my concern about 5-tuple > > vs. 6-tuple flow identification =E2=80=93 it looks like we have two dif= ferent > > sorts of =E2=80=9Cflow identification=E2=80=9D under discussion: > > > > - Identification of a flow in the network in general (network flow or > > microflow in RFC 2475). > > > > - Identification of a flow that undergoes DetNet processing at a > > DetNet node (DetNet flow). > > > > At the moment, we=E2=80=99re using 5-tuples (src & dst addresses, proto= col, > > src & dst ports) for network flow identification and 6-tuples (5-tuple > > + DSCP) for Detnet flow identification. In other words, we=E2=80=99re > > effectively saying that a network flow (defined by a 5-tuple), becomes > > a DetNet flow when a DetNet DSCP is added to request DetNet forwarding > > by the network. There=E2=80=99s a level of indirection here caused by t= he > > Diffserv architecture =E2=80=93 a DetNet DSCP designates a DetNet PHB, = and any > > a packet marked with a DetNet DSCP receives DetNet forwarding at a > > DetNet node. > > > > That said, my concern is that the 6-tuple term for a DetNet flow seems > > counter-intuitive to me, even though the DetNet forwarding plane in a > > DetNet node may well be matching on all 6 elements involved in order > > to decide whether to provide DetNet forwarding to each arriving packet. > > > > IMHO, a better description would be that a network flow (5-tuple) is > > being uniformly marked with a DetNet DSCP to request DetNet treatment > > from the network (and presumably DetNet router hardware is matching on > > DetNet DSCPs to dispatch inbound packets to DetNet forwarding logic > > instead of conventional forwarding logic). The counter-intuitivity > > of the 6-tuple term arises in the error case when someone uses a > > =E2=80=9Cclever=E2=80=9D marking of a single 5-tuple flow with a mixtur= e of DetNet and > > non-DetNet DSCPs. I believe that the result of that =E2=80=9Cclevernes= s=E2=80=9D is > > not multiple flows (which would be implied by the =E2=80=9C6-tuple=E2= =80=9D term), > > even though it may look like that in a DetNet node implementation. I > > think the result is better described as a single not-entirely-DetNet > > flow (defined by a 5-tuple) that receives bizarre forwarding treatment > > at DetNet nodes - some of the packets get DetNet forwarding treatment > > and some get other forwarding treatment, so in a loaded network, > > significant reordering is likely, and the receiver is probably not > > going to be happy with the resulting packet arrival order. > > > > If this all makes sense, that =E2=80=9Cclever=E2=80=9D mixing of DetNet= and non-DetNet > > DSCPs in a single flow (hence mixing DetNet and non-DetNet forwarding > > behavior in a single flow) deserves a =E2=80=9CSHOULD NOT=E2=80=9D stat= ement in the > > draft, with a warning about the bizarre forwarding behavior at DetNet > > nodes that is a likely result, which seems like a better thing to do > > than my original suggestion for some sort of prohibition on mixing > > DetNet and non-DetNet packets in the same 5-tuple. > > > > Thanks, --David > > > > *From:* Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A [mailto:balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com] > > *Sent:* Sunday, November 4, 2018 11:13 PM > > *To:* Black, David; detnet@ietf.org > > *Subject:* RE: IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP > > headers for detnet flow identification > > > > Hi David, > > > > Many thanks for your comments and suggestions. This is definitely > > something we must fix. > > > > Just two general statement as background: > > > > - ECN was not considered so far to be useful for DetNet flows. DetNet > > flows expect zero congestion loss. > > > > DetNet sources do not consider to react on ECN. > > > > - Masking for flow identification was considered as a general rule for > > the =E2=80=9Ctuples=E2=80=9D (i.e. not DSCP specific). > > > > So, regarding your proposals > > > > A, No usage of ECN for flow identification: AGREE > > > > B, DSCP list instead of bitmask: AGREE, it can provide the same result. > > > > C, New DiffServ PHB for DetNet: Agree in principle, let=E2=80=99s discu= ss the > > details > > > > Thanks > > > > Bala=E2=80=99zs > > > > *From:* detnet *On Behalf Of *Black, David > > *Sent:* Sunday, November 4, 2018 11:27 PM > > *To:* detnet@ietf.org > > *Subject:* [Detnet] IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in > > IP headers for detnet flow identification > > > > We have a problem here =E2=80=A6 > > > > The detnet IP solution draft (draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-ip-01.txt) has > > this to say about > > > > use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers for detnet flow identification= : > > > > 6.1.1.4. IPv4 Type of Service and IPv6 Traffic Class Fields > > > > These fields are used to support Differentiated Services [RFC2474] > > > > and Explicit Congestion Notification [RFC3168]. Implementations of > > > > this document MUST support DetNet flow identification based on the > > > > IPv4 Type of Service field when processing IPv4 packets, and the IPv= 6 > > > > Traffic Class Field when processing IPv6 packets. Implementations > > > > MUST support bimask based matching, where one (1) values in the > > > > bitmask indicate which subset of the bits in the field are to be use= d > > > > in determining a match. Note that a zero (0) value as a bitmask > > > > effectively means that these fields are ignored. > > > > That bitmask approach won=E2=80=99t work, as it violates both RFC 2474 = and RFC > > 3168. > > > > Starting with ECN (RFC 3168) =E2=80=93 the 2-bit ECN field is intended = to > > enable ECN functionality to be > > > > applied to any flow, and the contents of the ECN field can be changed > > by any router. Using ECN > > > > field values to identify separate flows is wrong, see Section 5 of RFC > > 3168, which specifies the > > > > current use of that field.. > > > > That leaves the 6-bit DSCP field, which is defined by RFC 2474. The > > above bitmask approach is > > > > prohibited by the following paragraph in section 3 of RFC 2474: > > > > Implementors should note that the DSCP field is six bits wide. DS- > > > > compliant nodes MUST select PHBs by matching against the entire 6-bi= t > > > > DSCP field, e.g., by treating the value of the field as a table inde= x > > > > which is used to select a particular packet handling mechanism which > > > > has been implemented in that device. The value of the CU field MUST > > > > be ignored by PHB selection. The DSCP field is defined as an > > > > unstructured field to facilitate the definition of future per-hop > > > > behaviors. > > > > The CU field is now the ECN field (see RFC 3168). My reading is that > > the current section 6.1.1.4 text in > > > > the IP solutions draft has managed to violate all three =E2=80=9CMUST= =E2=80=9D > > requirements in that RFC 2474 > > > > paragraph, which is impressive =E2=80=A6 and not in a good way. > > > > I suggest that several things be done: > > > > a)Abandon use of the ECN field for detnet flow identification. > > > > b)For the DSCP field, change from a bitmask approach to a list of DSCPs= . > > > > a.I would note that a carefully chosen DSCP list can be implemented > > via a bitmask. > > > > c)Define one or more Diffserv PHBs that realize DetNet behavior. > > > > a.I suspect that much of the content needed for this already exists in > the > > detnet drafts, so this should not be a =E2=80=9Cfrom scratch=E2=80=9D e= xercise. > > > > I would also caution that the current IP solution draft text on > > 6-tuples for flow identification appears > > > > to allow multiple separate detnet flows that differ only in DSCP to > > use the same IP 5-tuple (source & > > > > destination addresses, transport protocol, source & destination > > ports). I believe that this also ought > > > > to be prohibited, as Diffserv uses 5-tuples for flow identification - > > see the definition and use of the > > > > term =E2=80=9Cmicroflow=E2=80=9D in RFC 2475. > > > > A quick glance at the MPLS solution suggests that it does not have an > > analogous problem with the TC > > > > field in labels as the TC field does not appear to be used for detnet > > flow identification. > > > > Thanks, --David > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > David L. Black, Senior Distinguished Engineer > > > > Dell EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA 01748 > > > > +1 (774) 350-9323 *New * Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754 > > > > David.Black@dell.com > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --000000000000910a40057a2144e5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Lou, et al.,
one clarification question:
=
  • is it expected that DetNet flows will use several DSCP values or al= l DetNet services will use one?
Regards,
Greg=

On Wed, Nov 7, = 2018 at 8:07 PM Lou Berger <lberger@= labn.net> wrote:
Hi,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 David and I took advantage of being together this = week and came up
with a proposed resolution to this.=C2=A0 The proposal is as follows:

- ECN bits will *not* be mentioned as being used as part of flow
identifications
- DSCP configuration will use value lists, not masks
- For the same 5-tuple value sender SHOULD NOT mix DSCP values used for DetNet with non-DetNet (DSCP) values

Please let me/us know what you think,

Lou

Thanks to David for the discussion.

On 11/6/2018 10:48 AM, Black, David wrote:
>
> Hi Varga,
>
> I=E2=80=99m pleased that we mostly agree, and I=E2=80=99ll be happy to= discuss the PHB
> further.
>
> This discussion may also provide insight into my concern about 5-tuple=
> vs. 6-tuple flow identification =E2=80=93 it looks like we have two di= fferent
> sorts of =E2=80=9Cflow identification=E2=80=9D under discussion:
>
> - Identification of a flow in the network in general (network flow or =
> microflow in RFC 2475).
>
> - Identification of a flow that undergoes DetNet processing at a
> DetNet node (DetNet flow).
>
> At the moment, we=E2=80=99re using 5-tuples (src & dst addresses, = protocol,
> src & dst ports) for network flow identification and 6-tuples (5-t= uple
> + DSCP) for Detnet flow identification. In other words, we=E2=80=99re =
> effectively saying that a network flow (defined by a 5-tuple), becomes=
> a DetNet flow when a DetNet DSCP is added to request DetNet forwarding=
> by the network. There=E2=80=99s a level of indirection here caused by = the
> Diffserv architecture =E2=80=93 a DetNet DSCP designates a DetNet PHB,= and any
> a packet marked with a DetNet DSCP receives DetNet forwarding at a > DetNet node.
>
> That said, my concern is that the 6-tuple term for a DetNet flow seems=
> counter-intuitive to me, even though the DetNet forwarding plane in a =
> DetNet node may well be matching on all 6 elements involved in order <= br> > to decide whether to provide DetNet forwarding to each arriving packet= .
>
> IMHO, a better description would be that a network flow (5-tuple) is <= br> > being uniformly marked with a DetNet DSCP to request DetNet treatment =
> from the network (and presumably DetNet router hardware is matching on=
> DetNet DSCPs to dispatch inbound packets to DetNet forwarding logic > instead of conventional forwarding logic).=C2=A0=C2=A0 The counter-int= uitivity
> of the 6-tuple term arises in the error case when someone uses a
> =E2=80=9Cclever=E2=80=9D marking of a single 5-tuple flow with a mixtu= re of DetNet and
> non-DetNet DSCPs.=C2=A0 I believe that the result of that =E2=80=9Ccle= verness=E2=80=9D is
> not multiple flows (which would be implied by the =E2=80=9C6-tuple=E2= =80=9D term),
> even though it may look like that in a DetNet node implementation.=C2= =A0 I
> think the result is better described as a single not-entirely-DetNet <= br> > flow (defined by a 5-tuple) that receives bizarre forwarding treatment=
> at DetNet nodes - some of the packets get DetNet forwarding treatment =
> and some get other forwarding treatment, so in a loaded network,
> significant reordering is likely, and the receiver is probably not > going to be happy with the resulting packet arrival order.
>
> If this all makes sense, that =E2=80=9Cclever=E2=80=9D mixing of DetNe= t and non-DetNet
> DSCPs in a single flow (hence mixing DetNet and non-DetNet forwarding =
> behavior in a single flow) deserves a =E2=80=9CSHOULD NOT=E2=80=9D sta= tement in the
> draft, with a warning about the bizarre forwarding behavior at DetNet =
> nodes that is a likely result, which seems like a better thing to do <= br> > than my original suggestion for some sort of prohibition on mixing > DetNet and non-DetNet packets in the same 5-tuple.
>
> Thanks, --David
>
> *From:* Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A [mailto:balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com]
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 4, 2018 11:13 PM
> *To:* Black, David; detnet@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP <= br> > headers for detnet flow identification
>
> Hi David,
>
> Many thanks for your comments and suggestions. This is definitely
> something we must fix.
>
> Just two general statement as background:
>
> - ECN was not considered so far to be useful for DetNet flows. DetNet =
> flows expect zero congestion loss.
>
> DetNet sources do not consider to react on ECN.
>
> - Masking for flow identification was considered as a general rule for=
> the =E2=80=9Ctuples=E2=80=9D (i.e. not DSCP specific).
>
> So, regarding your proposals
>
> A, No usage of ECN for flow identification: AGREE
>
> B, DSCP list instead of bitmask: AGREE, it can provide the same result= .
>
> C, New DiffServ PHB for DetNet: Agree in principle, let=E2=80=99s disc= uss the
> details
>
> Thanks
>
> Bala=E2=80=99zs
>
> *From:* detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Black, David
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 4, 2018 11:27 PM
> *To:* detnet@ietf= .org
> *Subject:* [Detnet] IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in=
> IP headers for detnet flow identification
>
> We have a problem here =E2=80=A6
>
> The detnet IP solution draft (draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-ip-01.txt) has =
> this to say about
>
> use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers for detnet flow identificatio= n:
>
> 6.1.1.4.=C2=A0 IPv4 Type of Service and IPv6 Traffic Class Fields
>
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 These fields are used to support Differentiated Services = [RFC2474]
>
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 and Explicit Congestion Notification [RFC3168].=C2=A0 Imp= lementations of
>
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 this document MUST support DetNet flow identification bas= ed on the
>
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 IPv4 Type of Service field when processing IPv4 packets, = and the IPv6
>
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Traffic Class Field when processing IPv6 packets.=C2=A0 I= mplementations
>
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 MUST support bimask based matching, where one (1) values = in the
>
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 bitmask indicate which subset of the bits in the field ar= e to be used
>
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 in determining a match.=C2=A0 Note that a zero (0) value = as a bitmask
>
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 effectively means that these fields are ignored.
>
> That bitmask approach won=E2=80=99t work, as it violates both RFC 2474= and RFC
> 3168.
>
> Starting with ECN (RFC 3168) =E2=80=93 the 2-bit ECN field is intended= to
> enable ECN functionality to be
>
> applied to any flow, and the contents of the ECN field can be changed =
> by any router.=C2=A0 Using ECN
>
> field values to identify separate flows is wrong, see Section 5 of RFC=
> 3168, which specifies the
>
> current use of that field..
>
> That leaves the 6-bit DSCP field, which is defined by RFC 2474.=C2=A0 = The
> above bitmask approach is
>
> prohibited by the following paragraph in section 3 of RFC 2474:
>
> Implementors should note that the DSCP field is six bits wide.=C2=A0 D= S-
>
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 compliant nodes MUST select PHBs by matching against the = entire 6-bit
>
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 DSCP field, e.g., by treating the value of the field as a= table index
>
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 which is used to select a particular packet handling mech= anism which
>
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 has been implemented in that device.=C2=A0 The value of t= he CU field MUST
>
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 be ignored by PHB selection.=C2=A0 The DSCP field is defi= ned as an
>
> unstructured field to facilitate the definition of future per-hop
>
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 behaviors.
>
> The CU field is now the ECN field (see RFC 3168).=C2=A0 My reading is = that
> the current section 6.1.1.4 text in
>
> the IP solutions draft has managed to violate all three =E2=80=9CMUST= =E2=80=9D
> requirements in that RFC 2474
>
> paragraph, which is impressive =E2=80=A6 and not in a good way.
>
> I suggest that several things be done:
>
> a)Abandon use of the ECN field for detnet flow identification.
>
> b)For the DSCP field, change from a bitmask approach to a list of DSCP= s.
>
> a.I would note that a carefully chosen DSCP list can be implemented > via a bitmask.
>
> c)Define one or more Diffserv PHBs that realize DetNet behavior.
>
> a.I suspect that much of the content needed for this already exists in= the
> detnet drafts, so this should not be a =E2=80=9Cfrom scratch=E2=80=9D = exercise.
>
> I would also caution that the current IP solution draft text on
> 6-tuples for flow identification appears
>
> to allow multiple separate detnet flows that differ only in DSCP to > use the same IP 5-tuple (source &
>
> destination addresses, transport protocol, source & destination > ports).=C2=A0 I believe that this also ought
>
> to be prohibited, as Diffserv uses 5-tuples for flow identification - =
> see the definition and use of the
>
> term =E2=80=9Cmicroflow=E2=80=9D in RFC 2475.
>
> A quick glance at the MPLS solution suggests that it does not have an =
> analogous problem with the TC
>
> field in labels as the TC field does not appear to be used for detnet =
> flow identification.
>
> Thanks, --David
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> David L. Black, Senior Distinguished Engineer
>
> Dell EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA 01748
>
> +1 (774) 350-9323 *New *=C2=A0=C2=A0 Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
>
> David.Black@= dell.com <mailto:David.Black@dell.com>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
_______________________________________________
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detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
--000000000000910a40057a2144e5-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 22:46:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02583130F46 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 22:46:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ePMUAWv5CrYj for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 22:46:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy9-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy9-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.20.122]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C7A1130EA1 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 22:46:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw11.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.11]) by gproxy9.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 551051E0840 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:46:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id Ke5Ugz8m1d20TKe5UgtWJE; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 23:46:44 -0700 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 X-Authority-Analysis: $(_cmae_reason DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Subject:References:In-Reply-To: Message-ID:Date:CC:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=0KqY1e7Xs1uThG9a/aEVCwYMgGb6xs+L0USLXnhV8Sw=; b=KuX8fEtUsYCLvyVzuu8+nPBCcN jspeqBFZJwaaPUaOWdCfYdvycvFSKJqezifwAuQ/HW4umjSngo4v3K2/PTgrkO87w8313q535Q/5X nWZUqRsCldGdjho6XsgRMg5p2; Received: from [1.47.45.53] (port=62262 helo=[10.3.36.4]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gKe5R-001WQJ-JZ; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 23:46:44 -0700 From: Lou Berger To: Greg Mirsky CC: "Black, David" , =?UTF-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBWYXJnYQ==?= , DetNet WG Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 13:46:32 +0700 Message-ID: <166f2128540.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: References: <4ce74c7f-09c0-cd54-c128-9405687b9d5e@labn.net> User-Agent: AquaMail/1.17.0-1318 (build: 101700009) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------166f21288041a7627cef5dc016" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 1.47.45.53 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gKe5R-001WQJ-JZ X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([10.3.36.4]) [1.47.45.53]:62262 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers for detnet flow identification X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 06:46:57 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------166f21288041a7627cef5dc016 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ---------- On November 8, 2018 1:23:38 PM Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Lou, et al., > one clarification question: > > - is it expected that DetNet flows will use several DSCP values or all > DetNet services will use one? > DetNet may use different/multiple values and there is (not yet at least) a DetNet dscps/phb. Lou > Regards, > Greg > > On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 8:07 PM Lou Berger wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> David and I took advantage of being together this week and came up >> with a proposed resolution to this. The proposal is as follows: >> >> - ECN bits will *not* be mentioned as being used as part of flow >> identifications >> - DSCP configuration will use value lists, not masks >> - For the same 5-tuple value sender SHOULD NOT mix DSCP values used for >> DetNet with non-DetNet (DSCP) values >> >> Please let me/us know what you think, >> >> Lou >> >> Thanks to David for the discussion. >> >> On 11/6/2018 10:48 AM, Black, David wrote: >> > >> > Hi Varga, >> > >> > I’m pleased that we mostly agree, and I’ll be happy to discuss the PHB >> > further. >> > >> > This discussion may also provide insight into my concern about 5-tuple >> > vs. 6-tuple flow identification – it looks like we have two different >> > sorts of “flow identification” under discussion: >> > >> > - Identification of a flow in the network in general (network flow or >> > microflow in RFC 2475). >> > >> > - Identification of a flow that undergoes DetNet processing at a >> > DetNet node (DetNet flow). >> > >> > At the moment, we’re using 5-tuples (src & dst addresses, protocol, >> > src & dst ports) for network flow identification and 6-tuples (5-tuple >> > + DSCP) for Detnet flow identification. In other words, we’re >> > effectively saying that a network flow (defined by a 5-tuple), becomes >> > a DetNet flow when a DetNet DSCP is added to request DetNet forwarding >> > by the network. There’s a level of indirection here caused by the >> > Diffserv architecture – a DetNet DSCP designates a DetNet PHB, and any >> > a packet marked with a DetNet DSCP receives DetNet forwarding at a >> > DetNet node. >> > >> > That said, my concern is that the 6-tuple term for a DetNet flow seems >> > counter-intuitive to me, even though the DetNet forwarding plane in a >> > DetNet node may well be matching on all 6 elements involved in order >> > to decide whether to provide DetNet forwarding to each arriving packet. >> > >> > IMHO, a better description would be that a network flow (5-tuple) is >> > being uniformly marked with a DetNet DSCP to request DetNet treatment >> > from the network (and presumably DetNet router hardware is matching on >> > DetNet DSCPs to dispatch inbound packets to DetNet forwarding logic >> > instead of conventional forwarding logic). The counter-intuitivity >> > of the 6-tuple term arises in the error case when someone uses a >> > “clever” marking of a single 5-tuple flow with a mixture of DetNet and >> > non-DetNet DSCPs. I believe that the result of that “cleverness” is >> > not multiple flows (which would be implied by the “6-tuple” term), >> > even though it may look like that in a DetNet node implementation. I >> > think the result is better described as a single not-entirely-DetNet >> > flow (defined by a 5-tuple) that receives bizarre forwarding treatment >> > at DetNet nodes - some of the packets get DetNet forwarding treatment >> > and some get other forwarding treatment, so in a loaded network, >> > significant reordering is likely, and the receiver is probably not >> > going to be happy with the resulting packet arrival order. >> > >> > If this all makes sense, that “clever” mixing of DetNet and non-DetNet >> > DSCPs in a single flow (hence mixing DetNet and non-DetNet forwarding >> > behavior in a single flow) deserves a “SHOULD NOT” statement in the >> > draft, with a warning about the bizarre forwarding behavior at DetNet >> > nodes that is a likely result, which seems like a better thing to do >> > than my original suggestion for some sort of prohibition on mixing >> > DetNet and non-DetNet packets in the same 5-tuple. >> > >> > Thanks, --David >> > >> > *From:* Balázs Varga A [mailto:balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com] >> > *Sent:* Sunday, November 4, 2018 11:13 PM >> > *To:* Black, David; detnet@ietf.org >> > *Subject:* RE: IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP >> > headers for detnet flow identification >> > >> > Hi David, >> > >> > Many thanks for your comments and suggestions. This is definitely >> > something we must fix. >> > >> > Just two general statement as background: >> > >> > - ECN was not considered so far to be useful for DetNet flows. DetNet >> > flows expect zero congestion loss. >> > >> > DetNet sources do not consider to react on ECN. >> > >> > - Masking for flow identification was considered as a general rule for >> > the “tuples” (i.e. not DSCP specific). >> > >> > So, regarding your proposals >> > >> > A, No usage of ECN for flow identification: AGREE >> > >> > B, DSCP list instead of bitmask: AGREE, it can provide the same result. >> > >> > C, New DiffServ PHB for DetNet: Agree in principle, let’s discuss the >> > details >> > >> > Thanks >> > >> > Bala’zs >> > >> > *From:* detnet *On Behalf Of *Black, David >> > *Sent:* Sunday, November 4, 2018 11:27 PM >> > *To:* detnet@ietf.org >> > *Subject:* [Detnet] IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN fields in >> > IP headers for detnet flow identification >> > >> > We have a problem here … >> > >> > The detnet IP solution draft (draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-ip-01.txt) has >> > this to say about >> > >> > use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers for detnet flow identification: >> > >> > 6.1.1.4. IPv4 Type of Service and IPv6 Traffic Class Fields >> > >> > These fields are used to support Differentiated Services [RFC2474] >> > >> > and Explicit Congestion Notification [RFC3168]. Implementations of >> > >> > this document MUST support DetNet flow identification based on the >> > >> > IPv4 Type of Service field when processing IPv4 packets, and the IPv6 >> > >> > Traffic Class Field when processing IPv6 packets. Implementations >> > >> > MUST support bimask based matching, where one (1) values in the >> > >> > bitmask indicate which subset of the bits in the field are to be used >> > >> > in determining a match. Note that a zero (0) value as a bitmask >> > >> > effectively means that these fields are ignored. >> > >> > That bitmask approach won’t work, as it violates both RFC 2474 and RFC >> > 3168. >> > >> > Starting with ECN (RFC 3168) – the 2-bit ECN field is intended to >> > enable ECN functionality to be >> > >> > applied to any flow, and the contents of the ECN field can be changed >> > by any router. Using ECN >> > >> > field values to identify separate flows is wrong, see Section 5 of RFC >> > 3168, which specifies the >> > >> > current use of that field.. >> > >> > That leaves the 6-bit DSCP field, which is defined by RFC 2474. The >> > above bitmask approach is >> > >> > prohibited by the following paragraph in section 3 of RFC 2474: >> > >> > Implementors should note that the DSCP field is six bits wide. DS- >> > >> > compliant nodes MUST select PHBs by matching against the entire 6-bit >> > >> > DSCP field, e.g., by treating the value of the field as a table index >> > >> > which is used to select a particular packet handling mechanism which >> > >> > has been implemented in that device. The value of the CU field MUST >> > >> > be ignored by PHB selection. The DSCP field is defined as an >> > >> > unstructured field to facilitate the definition of future per-hop >> > >> > behaviors. >> > >> > The CU field is now the ECN field (see RFC 3168). My reading is that >> > the current section 6.1.1.4 text in >> > >> > the IP solutions draft has managed to violate all three “MUST” >> > requirements in that RFC 2474 >> > >> > paragraph, which is impressive … and not in a good way. >> > >> > I suggest that several things be done: >> > >> > a)Abandon use of the ECN field for detnet flow identification. >> > >> > b)For the DSCP field, change from a bitmask approach to a list of DSCPs. >> > >> > a.I would note that a carefully chosen DSCP list can be implemented >> > via a bitmask. >> > >> > c)Define one or more Diffserv PHBs that realize DetNet behavior. >> > >> > a.I suspect that much of the content needed for this already exists in >> the >> > detnet drafts, so this should not be a “from scratch” exercise. >> > >> > I would also caution that the current IP solution draft text on >> > 6-tuples for flow identification appears >> > >> > to allow multiple separate detnet flows that differ only in DSCP to >> > use the same IP 5-tuple (source & >> > >> > destination addresses, transport protocol, source & destination >> > ports). I believe that this also ought >> > >> > to be prohibited, as Diffserv uses 5-tuples for flow identification - >> > see the definition and use of the >> > >> > term “microflow” in RFC 2475. >> > >> > A quick glance at the MPLS solution suggests that it does not have an >> > analogous problem with the TC >> > >> > field in labels as the TC field does not appear to be used for detnet >> > flow identification. >> > >> > Thanks, --David >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > David L. Black, Senior Distinguished Engineer >> > >> > Dell EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA 01748 >> > >> > +1 (774) 350-9323 *New * Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754 >> > >> > David.Black@dell.com >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > detnet mailing list >> > detnet@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> ------------166f21288041a7627cef5dc016 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

----= ------
On November 8, 2018 1:23:38 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wr= ote:

>= Hi Lou, et al.,
> one clarification question:
>
>    - is it expected that DetNet flows will use several = DSCP values or all
>    DetNet services will use one?
>

DetNet may use different/mult= iple values and there is (not yet at least) a DetNet dscps/phb.

Lou


> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 8:07 PM Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> wro= te:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>>      David and I took advantage of being = together this week and came up
>> with a proposed resolution to this.  The proposal is as follo= ws:
>>
>> - ECN bits will *not* be mentioned as being used as part of flow >> identifications
>> - DSCP configuration will use value lists, not masks
>> - For the same 5-tuple value sender SHOULD NOT mix DSCP values use= d for
>> DetNet with non-DetNet (DSCP) values
>>
>> Please let me/us know what you think,
>>
>> Lou
>>
>> Thanks to David for the discussion.
>>
>> On 11/6/2018 10:48 AM, Black, David wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Varga,
>> >
>> > I=E2=80=99m pleased that we mostly agree, and I=E2=80=99ll be= happy to discuss the PHB
>> > further.
>> >
>> > This discussion may also provide insight into my concern abou= t 5-tuple
>> > vs. 6-tuple flow identification =E2=80=93 it looks like we ha= ve two different
>> > sorts of =E2=80=9Cflow identification=E2=80=9D under discussi= on:
>> >
>> > - Identification of a flow in the network in general (network= flow or
>> > microflow in RFC 2475).
>> >
>> > - Identification of a flow that undergoes DetNet processing a= t a
>> > DetNet node (DetNet flow).
>> >
>> > At the moment, we=E2=80=99re using 5-tuples (src & dst ad= dresses, protocol,
>> > src & dst ports) for network flow identification and 6-tu= ples (5-tuple
>> > + DSCP) for Detnet flow identification. In other words, we=E2= =80=99re
>> > effectively saying that a network flow (defined by a 5-tuple)= , becomes
>> > a DetNet flow when a DetNet DSCP is added to request DetNet f= orwarding
>> > by the network. There=E2=80=99s a level of indirection here c= aused by the
>> > Diffserv architecture =E2=80=93 a DetNet DSCP designates a De= tNet PHB, and any
>> > a packet marked with a DetNet DSCP receives DetNet forwarding= at a
>> > DetNet node.
>> >
>> > That said, my concern is that the 6-tuple term for a DetNet f= low seems
>> > counter-intuitive to me, even though the DetNet forwarding pl= ane in a
>> > DetNet node may well be matching on all 6 elements involved i= n order
>> > to decide whether to provide DetNet forwarding to each arrivi= ng packet.
>> >
>> > IMHO, a better description would be that a network flow (5-tu= ple) is
>> > being uniformly marked with a DetNet DSCP to request DetNet t= reatment
>> > from the network (and presumably DetNet router hardware is ma= tching on
>> > DetNet DSCPs to dispatch inbound packets to DetNet forwarding= logic
>> > instead of conventional forwarding logic).   The co= unter-intuitivity
>> > of the 6-tuple term arises in the error case when someone use= s a
>> > =E2=80=9Cclever=E2=80=9D marking of a single 5-tuple flow wit= h a mixture of DetNet and
>> > non-DetNet DSCPs.  I believe that the result of that =E2= =80=9Ccleverness=E2=80=9D is
>> > not multiple flows (which would be implied by the =E2=80=9C6-= tuple=E2=80=9D term),
>> > even though it may look like that in a DetNet node implementa= tion.  I
>> > think the result is better described as a single not-entirely= -DetNet
>> > flow (defined by a 5-tuple) that receives bizarre forwarding = treatment
>> > at DetNet nodes - some of the packets get DetNet forwarding t= reatment
>> > and some get other forwarding treatment, so in a loaded netwo= rk,
>> > significant reordering is likely, and the receiver is probabl= y not
>> > going to be happy with the resulting packet arrival order. >> >
>> > If this all makes sense, that =E2=80=9Cclever=E2=80=9D mixing= of DetNet and non-DetNet
>> > DSCPs in a single flow (hence mixing DetNet and non-DetNet fo= rwarding
>> > behavior in a single flow) deserves a =E2=80=9CSHOULD NOT=E2= =80=9D statement in the
>> > draft, with a warning about the bizarre forwarding behavior a= t DetNet
>> > nodes that is a likely result, which seems like a better thin= g to do
>> > than my original suggestion for some sort of prohibition on m= ixing
>> > DetNet and non-DetNet packets in the same 5-tuple.
>> >
>> > Thanks, --David
>> >
>> > *From:* Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A [mailto:balazs.a.varga@ericsson.c= om]
>> > *Sent:* Sunday, November 4, 2018 11:13 PM
>> > *To:* Black, David; detnet@ietf.org
>> > *Subject:* RE: IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN field= s in IP
>> > headers for detnet flow identification
>> >
>> > Hi David,
>> >
>> > Many thanks for your comments and suggestions. This is defini= tely
>> > something we must fix.
>> >
>> > Just two general statement as background:
>> >
>> > - ECN was not considered so far to be useful for DetNet flows= . DetNet
>> > flows expect zero congestion loss.
>> >
>> > DetNet sources do not consider to react on ECN.
>> >
>> > - Masking for flow identification was considered as a general= rule for
>> > the =E2=80=9Ctuples=E2=80=9D (i.e. not DSCP specific).
>> >
>> > So, regarding your proposals
>> >
>> > A, No usage of ECN for flow identification: AGREE
>> >
>> > B, DSCP list instead of bitmask: AGREE, it can provide the sa= me result.
>> >
>> > C, New DiffServ PHB for DetNet: Agree in principle, let=E2=80= =99s discuss the
>> > details
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > Bala=E2=80=99zs
>> >
>> > *From:* detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of = *Black, David
>> > *Sent:* Sunday, November 4, 2018 11:27 PM
>> > *To:* detnet@ietf.org
>> > *Subject:* [Detnet] IP Solution problem: Use of DSCP and ECN = fields in
>> > IP headers for detnet flow identification
>> >
>> > We have a problem here =E2=80=A6
>> >
>> > The detnet IP solution draft (draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-ip-01.= txt) has
>> > this to say about
>> >
>> > use of DSCP and ECN fields in IP headers for detnet flow iden= tification:
>> >
>> > 6.1.1.4.  IPv4 Type of Service and IPv6 Traffic Class Fi= elds
>> >
>> >    These fields are used to support Differenti= ated Services [RFC2474]
>> >
>> >    and Explicit Congestion Notification [RFC31= 68].  Implementations of
>> >
>> >    this document MUST support DetNet flow iden= tification based on the
>> >
>> >    IPv4 Type of Service field when processing = IPv4 packets, and the IPv6
>> >
>> >    Traffic Class Field when processing IPv6 pa= ckets.  Implementations
>> >
>> >    MUST support bimask based matching, where o= ne (1) values in the
>> >
>> >    bitmask indicate which subset of the bits i= n the field are to be used
>> >
>> >    in determining a match.  Note that a z= ero (0) value as a bitmask
>> >
>> >    effectively means that these fields are ign= ored.
>> >
>> > That bitmask approach won=E2=80=99t work, as it violates both= RFC 2474 and RFC
>> > 3168.
>> >
>> > Starting with ECN (RFC 3168) =E2=80=93 the 2-bit ECN field is= intended to
>> > enable ECN functionality to be
>> >
>> > applied to any flow, and the contents of the ECN field can be= changed
>> > by any router.  Using ECN
>> >
>> > field values to identify separate flows is wrong, see Section= 5 of RFC
>> > 3168, which specifies the
>> >
>> > current use of that field..
>> >
>> > That leaves the 6-bit DSCP field, which is defined by RFC 247= 4.  The
>> > above bitmask approach is
>> >
>> > prohibited by the following paragraph in section 3 of RFC 247= 4:
>> >
>> > Implementors should note that the DSCP field is six bits wide= .  DS-
>> >
>> >    compliant nodes MUST select PHBs by matchin= g against the entire 6-bit
>> >
>> >    DSCP field, e.g., by treating the value of = the field as a table index
>> >
>> >    which is used to select a particular packet= handling mechanism which
>> >
>> >    has been implemented in that device.  = The value of the CU field MUST
>> >
>> >    be ignored by PHB selection.  The DSCP= field is defined as an
>> >
>> > unstructured field to facilitate the definition of future per= -hop
>> >
>> >    behaviors.
>> >
>> > The CU field is now the ECN field (see RFC 3168).  My re= ading is that
>> > the current section 6.1.1.4 text in
>> >
>> > the IP solutions draft has managed to violate all three =E2= =80=9CMUST=E2=80=9D
>> > requirements in that RFC 2474
>> >
>> > paragraph, which is impressive =E2=80=A6 and not in a good wa= y.
>> >
>> > I suggest that several things be done:
>> >
>> > a)Abandon use of the ECN field for detnet flow identification= .
>> >
>> > b)For the DSCP field, change from a bitmask approach to a lis= t of DSCPs.
>> >
>> > a.I would note that a carefully chosen DSCP list can be imple= mented
>> > via a bitmask.
>> >
>> > c)Define one or more Diffserv PHBs that realize DetNet behavi= or.
>> >
>> > a.I suspect that much of the content needed for this already = exists in
>> the
>> > detnet drafts, so this should not be a =E2=80=9Cfrom scratch= =E2=80=9D exercise.
>> >
>> > I would also caution that the current IP solution draft text = on
>> > 6-tuples for flow identification appears
>> >
>> > to allow multiple separate detnet flows that differ only in D= SCP to
>> > use the same IP 5-tuple (source &
>> >
>> > destination addresses, transport protocol, source & desti= nation
>> > ports).  I believe that this also ought
>> >
>> > to be prohibited, as Diffserv uses 5-tuples for flow identifi= cation -
>> > see the definition and use of the
>> >
>> > term =E2=80=9Cmicroflow=E2=80=9D in RFC 2475.
>> >
>> > A quick glance at the MPLS solution suggests that it does not= have an
>> > analogous problem with the TC
>> >
>> > field in labels as the TC field does not appear to be used fo= r detnet
>> > flow identification.
>> >
>> > Thanks, --David
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------= ---
>> >
>> > David L. Black, Senior Distinguished Engineer
>> >
>> > Dell EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA 01748
>> >
>> > +1 (774) 350-9323 *New *   Mobile: +1 (978) 394-775= 4
>> >
>> > David.Black@dell.com <mailto:David.Black@dell.com>
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------= ---
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > detnet mailing list
>> > detnet@ietf.org
>> > http= s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> detnet mailing list
>> detnet@ietf.org
>> https://w= ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
>>

------------166f21288041a7627cef5dc016-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 23:03:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB52A130E29 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:03:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nOWWszjXNqgv for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:03:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.25.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 201671294D7 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:03:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw14.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.14]) by gproxy1.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A39A408A4DD9 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:00:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id KeIrgAhkVvdTuKeIrgSht4; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 00:00:33 -0700 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:Subject:From:To: Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID: In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=4axcbJRPJ/b7D25N2xGTfmvPEKgWpUiFrTLNcAZniFA=; b=uo564n6vE+JPEwVMzaGZfS9Y7N 8DxsIKKf1viXYmkwZ++oreR6RAlNTc1gODAiS9SQpyBKmqknXX4nGrFrizGT0Cxo3MsDmYwZApno+ zdaiH6E1BSPtKXbnFjsiBzVF6; Received: from pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.106.211]:54506 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gKeIp-001Zau-TY for detnet@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 00:00:33 -0700 To: "detnet@ietf.org" From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 14:00:28 +0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4526E46DB7BD8C3DD7701A7C" Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.106.211 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gKeIp-001Zau-TY X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.106.211]:54506 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] IETF 103 Session links X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 07:03:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4526E46DB7BD8C3DD7701A7C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FYI - >                     Slides: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/session/detnet > Etherpad: http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-103-detnet?useMonospaceFont=true > Meetecho: http://www.meetecho.com/ietf103/detnet/ > Audio stream: http://ietf103streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf1036.m3u > Jabber:    xmpp:detnet@jabber.ietf.org?join > --------------4526E46DB7BD8C3DD7701A7C Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

FYI -


>                     Slides:    https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/session/detnet
>                     Etherpad:    http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-103-detnet?useMonospaceFont=true
>                     Meetecho:    http://www.meetecho.com/ietf103/detnet/
>                     Audio stream:    http://ietf103streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf1036.m3u
>                     Jabber:    xmpp:detnet@jabber.ietf.org?join
>
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Thu, 8 Nov 2018 02:45:10 -0500 To: Lou Berger CC: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Your comment on 5 tuple vs 6 tuple flow identification Thread-Index: AQHUdzPr5rptobuymEmTzSwf4nKM/6VFfEyA Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 07:45:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.105.8.135] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd54.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-11-08_04:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1807170000 definitions=main-1811080067 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Your comment on 5 tuple vs 6 tuple flow identification X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 07:45:40 -0000 TG91IEJlcmdlciB3cml0ZXM6DQoNCj4gIMKgwqDCoCBJIHBhcmFwaHJhc2VkIG15IHVuZGVyc3Rh bmRpbmcgb2YgeW91ciBjb21tZW50IG9uIDUtdHVwbGUgdnMNCj4gNi10dXBsZSBhcyB0aGF0IDUg dHVwbGUgY2FuIGJlIHVzZWQgZm9yIG5leHQgaG9wIHNlbGVjdGlvbiwgYnV0IDYtdHVwbGUNCj4g KDUrRFNDUCkgc2hvdWxkIG9ubHkgYmUgdXNlZCBmb3IgZGlmZmVyZW50IHRyYWZmaWMgdHJlYXRt ZW50LsKgIEFzc3VtaW5nDQo+IHRoaXMgaXMgY29ycmVjdCwgeW91J3JlIGJhc2ljYWxseSBzYXlp bmcgdGhhdCBhIHNpbmdsZSA1LXR1cGxlIGZsb3cNCj4gc2hvdWxkIG5ldmVyIGJlIHNlbnQgb3Zl ciBhIGRpZmZlcmVudCBwYXRoIHRocm91Z2ggYSBuZXR3b3JrLsKgIElzIHRoaXMgYQ0KPiBjb3Jy ZWN0IGludGVycHJldGF0aW9uIG9mIHlvdXIgY29tbWVudHM/DQo+IA0KPiBJZiBzbywgaG93IGRv IHlvdSBzZWUgTXVsdGktdG9wb2xvZ3kgKFJGQ3MgNDkxNSwgNTEyMCwgNzcyMikgcm91dGluZw0K PiBjb25mb3JtaW5nL21lZXRpbmcgdGhpcyByZXF1aXJlbWVudD8NCg0KSW4gcHJhY3RpY2UsIEkn ZCBnZW5lcmFsbHkgZXhwZWN0IG5ldHdvcmsgb3BlcmF0b3JzIHRvIGNvbmZpZ3VyZSB0b3BvbG9n eQ0Kc2VsZWN0aW9uIHNvIHRoYXQgZWFjaCA1LXR1cGxlIGZsb3cgdXNlcyBhIHNpbmdsZSB0b3Bv bG9neS4gICBTcHJlYWRpbmcgYQ0KNS10dXBsZSBmbG93IGFjcm9zcyBtdWx0aXBsZSB0b3BvbG9n aWVzIGlzIGxpa2VseSB0byBsZWFkIHRvIHBhY2tldCByZW9yZGVyaW5nDQp0aGF0IGNhbiBjYXVz ZSBuZWdhdGl2ZSBlZmZlY3RzIG9uIHNvbWUgdHJhbnNwb3J0IHByb3RvY29scyBhbmQgYXBwbGlj YXRpb25zLg0KDQpJbiBnZW5lcmFsLCBzZWUgdGhlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gb2YgVHJhbnNwb3J0IFBy b3RvY29scyBhbmQgUmVvcmRlcmluZyBpbg0KU2VjdGlvbiA1LjEgb2YgUkZDIDc2NTcsIHdoaWNo IGRlYWxzIHdpdGggcmVvcmRlcmluZyB0aGF0IGFyaXNlcyBmcm9tIGENCmRpZmZlcmVudCBjYXVz ZTogaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sL3JmYzc2NTcjc2VjdGlvbi01LjEuDQoNClRo YW5rcywNCi0tRGF2aWQNCg0K From nobody Wed Nov 7 23:52:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 503E7130E10 for ; 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Thu, 08 Nov 2018 00:22:55 -0700 To: "Black, David" Cc: "detnet@ietf.org" From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 14:22:51 +0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.106.211 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gKeeU-001f2c-QG X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.106.211]:54890 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 3 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Org: HG=bhcustomer;ORG=bluehost; X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Your comment on 5 tuple vs 6 tuple flow identification X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 07:52:37 -0000 Hi David,     I paraphrased my understanding of your comment on 5-tuple vs 6-tuple as that 5 tuple can be used for next hop selection, but 6-tuple (5+DSCP) should only be used for different traffic treatment.  Assuming this is correct, you're basically saying that a single 5-tuple flow should never be sent over a different path through a network.  Is this a correct interpretation of your comments? If so, how do you see Multi-topology (RFCs 4915, 5120, 7722) routing conforming/meeting this requirement? Thanks, Lou From nobody Wed Nov 7 23:57:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEA75130E10 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:57:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0X7C0cz9wRle for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:57:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy7-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy7-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [70.40.196.235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA04D1294D0 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:57:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw12.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.12]) by gproxy7.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A768216D93 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:45:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id Kf0AgLa4LE0jMKf0Agi7S3; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 00:45:18 -0700 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=2NCzXXsxxmrRJbQtz8YmDekaDoDYWGa7ZRNkNPWWoIw=; b=ToMJdQ0yhweHN6qdelBMHbBAVD b+nFY4wPLSOEZSKgluCeTfhFzpUIInd0rPoCVwE7v4NbhOQzxAbVYkHWV7QaNXH9YwvqWksGhkfR8 zZlBzoacV8H4gXIVUJP7gCddt; Received: from pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.106.211]:55016 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gKf09-001jpW-Av; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 00:45:17 -0700 To: "Black, David" , "Scharf, Michael" , =?UTF-8?B?J0rDoW5vcyBGYXJrYXMn?= Cc: "tsv-art@ietf.org" , DetNet WG , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" References: <0bb7176c-c386-b863-a4f8-06254f4627ab@ericsson.com> <1705d15c-c7ba-c76f-88db-c75f1a88db0f@ericsson.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D143BE1@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 14:45:12 +0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.106.211 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gKf09-001jpW-Av X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.106.211]:55016 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 8 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 07:57:23 -0000 Hi, See below for in-line responses On 11/5/2018 12:21 AM, Black, David wrote: > ... >>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network robustness >>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For instance, >>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet replication could >>> severely and permanently congest a network and cause harm. > [... snip ...] >> NEW: >> Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of possible >> failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet network to >> detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, or at >> the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, filters and >> policers can take action to discard offending packets or flows, or >> trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting down >> the offending interface. >> >> [ms] That does not address my concern. As I wrote already, I believe this >> document has to discuss the applicability of circuit breakers according to RFC >> 8084. > I concur with Michael's implied concern that the "should" in the NEW text > is woefully inadequate. The provisions to prevent escaped non-elastic traffic > from causing damage elsewhere need to be mandatory particularly if DetNet > and non-DetNet networks are interconnected. The above > text on filters doesn't appear to cover escape from the DetNet network, > and needs to do so. Deployment of filters at DetNet nodes that drop all > DetNet traffic that tries to escape, and that drop all misdirected DetNet > traffic should address most of this problem. > > Once that is done, I think a discussion of circuit breakers is needed, in the > form of Detnet service mechanisms that can shut down (cease transmission > of) a flow that is being sent entirely into the bit-bucket by a downstream filter, > due to misconfiguration, failure, etc. I think we have a bit of a disconnect of what DetNet service delivers. DetNet does not itself impact any Transport protocol  (e.g., UDP, TCP) so itself does not *produce* elastic or non-elastic traffic. DetNet operates at Layer 3 and basically provides detnet flows with a service equivalent to IntServ's Guaranteed Quality of Service.  As such, DetNet flows basically operate as if the network is uncongested. WRT escaped traffic, as I mentioned in today's session, I really think this is no difference between escaped DetNet traffic and traffic delivered over an uncongested network to a peer (congested or uncongested) network. Based on all this, I'm not sure how or why a  discussion of circuit breakers is needed. Lou > > Thanks, --David > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tsv-art [mailto:tsv-art-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Scharf, Michael >> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:44 PM >> To: 'János Farkas' >> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 >> >> >> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] >> Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive >> information. >> >> >> Hi Janos, >> >> Thanks for the reply. My comments are inline [ms]. >> >> I have omitted all proposed changes that work for me. >> >> Michael >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: János Farkas >> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 10:56 AM >> To: Scharf, Michael >> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; DetNet WG >> >> Subject: Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 >> >> Hi Michael, >> >> Thank you very much for the thorough review and good comments! >> >> Please find below in-line responses and how we plan to update the draft to >> resolve your comments. >> >> Best regards, >> Janos >> >> >> On 9/29/2018 12:24 AM, Michael Scharf wrote: >>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf >>> Review result: Ready with Issues >>> >>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" >>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall framework for >>> Deterministic Networking. >>> >>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues as >>> detailed below. >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> Major issues: >> [...] >> >>> DetNet >>> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices >>> transporting DetNet traffic. That assumption should be explicitly >>> spelt out early in the document, e.g., in the introduction. >> Actually, some form of DetNet support is required from each node that >> transports DetNet traffic. For instance, DetNet flows have to be recognized in >> order not to spoil their QoS at the minimum. >> >> [ms] I look for an clear explanation in the architecture document of what "some >> form of DetNet support" exactly means. For instance, is standard MPLS TE >> without any DetNet support good enough for an LSR on the IP/MPLS path used >> by DetNet traffic, or not? As an example, when I read the following paragraph in >> draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-mpls-01 ... >> >> Transit nodes are normal MPLS Label Switching Routers (LSRs). They >> are generally unaware of the special requirements of DetNet flows, >> although they need to provide traffic engineering services and proper >> QoS to the LSPs associated with DetNet flows to enhance the prospect >> of the LSPs meeting the DetNet service requirements. Some >> implementations of transit nodes may be DetNet aware, but such nodes >> just support the DetNet transport layer. >> >> ... I could maybe assume that actually there can be "transit nodes" that do not >> require *any* sort of DetNet support or DetNet awareness. Is that correct? I >> think the architecture document has to be clear on such fundamental questions. >> >> The Introduction could be extended to clarify, e.g., the third paragraph: >> >> OLD: >> A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. That is, the presence of >> DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the benefits offered >> DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, prevent existing QoS >> mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, subject to the bandwidth >> required for the DetNet flows. A single source-destination pair can trade both >> DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End systems and applications need not >> instantiate special interfaces for DetNet flows. Networks are not restricted to >> certain topologies; connectivity is not restricted. Any application that generates >> a data flow that can be usefully characterized as having a maximum bandwidth >> should be able to take advantage of DetNet, as long as the necessary resources >> can be reserved. Reservations can be made by the application itself, via network >> management, by an application’s controller, or by other means, e.g., a dynamic >> control plane (e.g., [RFC2205]). >> >> NEW: >> A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. That is, the presence of >> DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the benefits offered >> DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, prevent existing QoS >> mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, subject to the bandwidth >> required for the DetNet flows. A single source-destination pair can trade both >> DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End systems and applications need not >> instantiate special interfaces for DetNet flows. Networks are not restricted to >> certain topologies; connectivity is not restricted. Any application that generates >> a data flow that can be usefully characterized as having a maximum bandwidth >> should be able to take advantage of DetNet, as long as the necessary resources >> can be reserved. Reservations can be made by the application itself, via network >> management, by an application’s controller, or by other means, e.g., a dynamic >> control plane (e.g., [RFC2205]). Network nodes supporting DetNet flows have to >> implement some of the DetNet capabilities (not necessarily all) in order to treat >> DetNet flows such that their QoS requirements are met. >> >> [ms] To me, the last sentence is not clear. Does "some of the DetNet capabilities >> (not necessarily all)" include e.g. vanilla traffic engineering? For instance, if a >> network node can ensure that the QoS requirements are met by leveraging >> existing standardized TE without any additional DetNet awareness, is this >> enough for deploying DetNet? Or does this node have to implement additional >> DetNet-specific functionality? Specifically, please explain if an existing DetNet- >> unaware router on the path taken by DetNet traffic can be used to forward >> DetNet traffic, or if it is mandatory that any router forwarding DetNet traffic >> indeed implements new capabilities specific to DetNet. In the latter case, I think >> the document would need to discuss incremental deployment strategies as well. >> >>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network robustness >>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For instance, >>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet replication could >>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How does the DetNet >>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. if the topology >>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be solved by >>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are corresponding >>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that filters and policers >>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still assumes consistently >>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And Section 3.3.2 is >>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" without stating >>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further solutions, such as >>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not discussed? >> Security issues and considerations are addressed by the DetNet Security >> draft: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-security. >> Reference to the  DetNet Security draft will be added. >> >> There will be a document dedicated to Operations, Administration and >> Maintenance (OAM), which will address operational, misconfiguration, and >> failure detection issues. >> >> The topology changes have to be solved by the control plane, either >> centralized or distributed. >> >> The filters and policers described in Section 3.3.2 also provide >> robustness by eliminating/mitigating traffic coming from malfunctioning >> devices. >> >> RFC2475 is recommended for traffic policing functions to increase >> robustness. >> >> The text  in Section 3.3.2 could be made clearer, e.g., by updating the >> first paragraph to: >> >> OLD: >> One key to building robust real-time systems is to reduce the >> infinite variety of possible failures to a number that can be >> analyzed with reasonable confidence. DetNet aids in the process by >> allowing for filters and policers to detect DetNet packets received >> on the wrong interface, or at the wrong time, or in too great a >> volume, and to then take actions such as discarding the offending >> packet, shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting down the >> offending interface. >> >> NEW: >> Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of possible >> failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet network to >> detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, or at >> the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, filters and >> policers can take action to discard offending packets or flows, or >> trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting down >> the offending interface. >> >> [ms] That does not address my concern. As I wrote already, I believe this >> document has to discuss the applicability of circuit breakers according to RFC >> 8084. >> >>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of failures to the QoS of >>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to protect non-DetNet parts >>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. Solutions to this >>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic (e.g., in case of >>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not discussed at all in the document? >> Actually the regulation of DetNet traffic by polices and filters >> protects both other DetNet traffic and non-DetNet traffic. >> >> Section 3.3.1 could be extended to make it clear, e.g., by extending the >> last paragraph: >> >> OLD: >> Ideally, the net effect of the presence of DetNet flows in a network >> on the non-DetNet packets is primarily a reduction in the available >> bandwidth. >> >> NEW: >> Traffic policing functions (e.g. [RFC2475]) are used to avoid the >> starvation of non-DetNet traffic. Thus, the net effect of the presence >> of DetNet flows in a network on non-DetNet flows is primarily a >> reduction in the available bandwidth. >> >> [ms] I believe a stronger wording is needed, e.g. along the lines of "a DetNet >> deployment must avoid starvation of non-DetNet traffic ...". >> >> [...] >> >>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational RFC on IRTF stream, >>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., "planes"). This is >>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should probably refer to >>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC 7491, albeit there is >>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, Section 4.4 is by and >>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not specific to DetNet. >>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the concepts introduced in >>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology or discuss >>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly at the end that >>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet architecture. It is not >>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 could be removed >>> from the document without impacting the rest of the document. >> The document should point out to traffic engineering and centralized >> control plane aspects, so it is better to keep Section 4.4. >> >> RFC 7426 provides the full picture of SDN architecture, which needs to >> be referred from the DetNet architecture. No other RFC provides such >> detailed picture. Therefore, we need to keep the reference to RFC 7426, >> which is an informative reference. >> >> [ms] I'll leave that up to the IESG to decide whether an IETF proposed standard >> should build an architecture based on research work instead of, say, documents >> with IETF consensus. As a side note, I believe the understanding in industry what >> "SDN architecture" really means and how it is implemented may have evolved >> since publication of IRTF RFC 7426, which was published in Jan. 2015. For >> instance, IRTF RFC 7426 does not discuss the implications of segment routing, >> BGP-LS, and other recent IETF techniques. And, based on what I read in the >> DetNet architecture, I believe DetNet could actually be implemented without >> any "SDN architecture", e.g. by distributed traffic engineering. As a result, I don't >> even understand the need to discuss "SDN". >> >> [ms] For the record: As TSV-ART reviewer, I question whether IRTF RFC 7426 is >> indeed an appropriate reference, I have doubts that IRTF RFC 7426 is really up- >> to-date, and I am concerned about the content quality of section 4.4, e.g., >> regarding the lack of alignment with the rest of the document. The IESG will >> certainly have a better understanding that than me how to deal with such topics. >> >> The related work in TEAS is already referred to. >> >> [...] >> >>> Minor issues: >>> >>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" >>> >>> The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in the IETF, e.g. >>> originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. "transport network" is >>> used in the IETF for different technologies in different areas, I think the >>> term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer to transport >>> protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find the term "DetNet >>> transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion is easy to see e.g. >>> in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as per RFC 1122) sits >>> on top of "transport". >>> >>> Based on the document it also may be solution/implementation specific >> whether >>> the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate protocol layer compared >>> to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me why the word >>> "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination "transport layer". >>> >>> To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport protocol") should be >>> used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with RFC 1122. But this is >>> probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. >> "transport" is used here as in "packet transport networks" not as OSI L4 >> transport. >> >> [ms] At the risk of stating the obvious: The relevant section of RFC 1122 defining >> "transport layer" is entitled by "The Internet Architecture". And, according e.g. >> to RFC 5921, "packet transport network" is a term defined by ITU-T. In an IETF >> document, I believe IETF terminology should be used. >> >> I suggest to use the terms "DetNet transport sub-layer" and "DetNet >> service sub-layer" throughout the document, which would hopefully avoid >> confusion. >> >> [ms] "DetNet transport sub-layer" somewhat solves my concern of avoiding the >> expression "transport layer". To really avoid confusion, I believe it would be >> better to avoid the ambiguous term "transport" altogether. But I will be fine if >> all DetNet documents consistently avoid the term "transport layer". >> >> Michael >> _______________________________________________ >> Tsv-art mailing list >> Tsv-art@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Thu Nov 8 00:05:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 268D21294D0 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:05:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2qdFlIy26kJC for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:05:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy2-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy2-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.18.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 123FF124408 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 00:05:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw15.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.15]) by gproxy2.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98BF01E12F6 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 01:05:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id KfJSgdsWGj0soKfJSgAiLP; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 01:05:14 -0700 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=91ss8wBk+QcitfKfc7YH7Wrz23WGlq7Q1g7HTKSGU0A=; b=D5SMmoh5FjFQENF9iAL53irwHM 2ZNEf2et0qKznSsK9TlqsRdI/XaOrJRP7R8Qhqmq5v312g4alyTHi8ANLDKNnmp64p7fO7OybSSO4 bRTkPZTAY6RzFa0nlkoWdJAth; Received: from pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.106.211]:55126 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gKfJR-001ogC-3g; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 01:05:14 -0700 To: "Black, David" Cc: "detnet@ietf.org" References: From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <3a071fa3-681b-99ed-0c1f-e1183c491d82@labn.net> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 15:05:09 +0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.106.211 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gKfJR-001ogC-3g X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.106.211]:55126 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 2 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Your comment on 5 tuple vs 6 tuple flow identification X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 08:05:19 -0000 On 11/8/2018 2:45 PM, Black, David wrote: > Lou Berger writes: > >>     I paraphrased my understanding of your comment on 5-tuple vs >> 6-tuple as that 5 tuple can be used for next hop selection, but 6-tuple >> (5+DSCP) should only be used for different traffic treatment.  Assuming >> this is correct, you're basically saying that a single 5-tuple flow >> should never be sent over a different path through a network.  Is this a >> correct interpretation of your comments? >> >> If so, how do you see Multi-topology (RFCs 4915, 5120, 7722) routing >> conforming/meeting this requirement? > In practice, I'd generally expect network operators to configure topology > selection so that each 5-tuple flow uses a single topology. Spreading a > 5-tuple flow across multiple topologies is likely to lead to packet reordering > that can cause negative effects on some transport protocols and applications. While I don't disagree that this is reasonable, it isn't what is supported by the MTR RFCs I reference above.  Given those RFCs (and real deployments) don't preclude nexthop selection based on DSCP in this document, i.e., at the architectural level.  Note that I'm limiting this comment to the architecture draft -- I'm not changing my view on what should be documented in the ip solution draft, i.e., what was summarized in the IP related thread on the DetNet list. Thanks, Lou > In general, see the discussion of Transport Protocols and Reordering in > Section 5.1 of RFC 7657, which deals with reordering that arises from a > different cause: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7657#section-5.1. > > Thanks, > --David > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Thu Nov 8 07:07:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01AFC128CF2 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 07:07:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.17 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.17 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.47, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no 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wA8F6two032560 Received: from mailusrhubprd54.lss.emc.com (mailusrhubprd54.lss.emc.com [10.106.48.19]) by maildlpprd03.lss.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:06:33 -0500 Received: from MXHUB312.corp.emc.com (MXHUB312.corp.emc.com [10.146.3.90]) by mailusrhubprd54.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id wA8F4G9K007915 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:06:37 -0500 Received: from MX307CL04.corp.emc.com ([fe80::849f:5da2:11b:4385]) by MXHUB312.corp.emc.com ([10.146.3.90]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:06:31 -0500 To: Lou Berger CC: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Your comment on 5 tuple vs 6 tuple flow identification Thread-Index: AQHUdzPr5rptobuymEmTzSwf4nKM/6VFfEyAgABcpoCAABvVIA== Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 15:06:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3a071fa3-681b-99ed-0c1f-e1183c491d82@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <3a071fa3-681b-99ed-0c1f-e1183c491d82@labn.net> Accept-Language: en-US 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 18:12:02 -0000 SW5saW5lDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogVHN2LWFydCBb bWFpbHRvOnRzdi1hcnQtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIExvdSBCZXJnZXIN Cj4gU2VudDogVGh1cnNkYXksIE5vdmVtYmVyIDgsIDIwMTggODo0NSBBTQ0KPiBUbzogQmxhY2ss IERhdmlkOyBTY2hhcmYsIE1pY2hhZWw7ICdKw6Fub3MgRmFya2FzJw0KPiBDYzogdHN2LWFydEBp ZXRmLm9yZzsgRGV0TmV0IFdHOyBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWRldG5ldC0NCj4gYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLmFs bEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW1Rzdi1hcnRdIFtEZXRuZXRdIFRzdmFydCBsYXN0 IGNhbGwgcmV2aWV3IG9mIGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtDQo+IGRldG5ldC1hcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUtMDgNCj4g 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with ESMTPS id wA8NqLoW031543 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Nov 2018 23:52:21 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 17:52:20 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 17:52:20 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "6tisch@ietf.org" <6tisch@ietf.org>, "6lo-chairs@ietf.org" <6lo-chairs@ietf.org>, "lp-wan@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: announcing the paw mailing list. Thread-Index: AdR3vdDMYOKfycY4Ta+6w9b7QNT+zg== Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 23:51:57 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 23:51:41 +0000 Message-ID: <7af63970cda64be5aad44db9cfe05e9e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.75.233.92] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7af63970cda64be5aad44db9cfe05e9eXCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.11, xch-rcd-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-6.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] announcing the paw mailing list. 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Fri, 9 Nov 2018 02:11:51 +0000 From: Norman Finn To: "Black, David" , Lou Berger CC: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Your comment on 5 tuple vs 6 tuple flow identification Thread-Index: AQHUdzPr5rptobuymEmTzSwf4nKM/6VFfEyAgAAI1ICAAHW7gIAAuKiO Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 02:11:48 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8016FBFD8@lhrpml504-mbs.exmail.huawei.com> References: <3a071fa3-681b-99ed-0c1f-e1183c491d82@labn.net>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.7.94] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Your comment on 5 tuple vs 6 tuple flow identification X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 02:12:00 -0000 I rather like David's "flow =3D 5-tuple, QoS =3D 6-tuple".=0A= =0A= It may be that there are RFCs that permit the DCSP to influence the choice = of output interface, but I definitely don't want DetNet to require or assum= e this capability.=0A= =0A= FWIW, IEEE 802 is very strict about that; L2 priority does not influence fo= rwarding -- only QoS.=0A= =0A= -- Norm=0A= =0A= ________________________________________=0A= From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Black, David [David.Bla= ck@dell.com]=0A= Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2018 7:06 AM=0A= To: Lou Berger=0A= Cc: detnet@ietf.org=0A= Subject: Re: [Detnet] Your comment on 5 tuple vs 6 tuple flow identificatio= n=0A= =0A= Lou,=0A= =0A= I think that there are two subtly different concepts here:=0A= =0A= >> you're basically saying that a single 5-tuple flow=0A= >> should never be sent over a different path through a network.=0A= =0A= I think that overstates what I said, but it's also not the same concept as:= =0A= =0A= >> Given those RFCs (and real=0A= >> deployments) don't preclude nexthop selection based on DSCP in this=0A= >> document, i.e., at the architectural level.=0A= =0A= Nexthop selection based on DSCP seems ok. Senders are supposed to mark=0A= flows, at least for reliable delivery transport protocols, with only one or= =0A= a consistent set of DSCPs is used that won't cause reordering (for more on= =0A= this see RFC 7657).=0A= =0A= Web RTC mixes a bunch of different types and priorities of traffic onto a= =0A= single 5-tuple, and can use a variety of DSCPs for it - see=0A= draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos. If one uses DSCP for next hop selection,=0A= that would result in different paths for different types & priorities of tr= affic,=0A= which could result in extensive reordering. That's ok, as the Web RTC=0A= receiver is not expecting ordered delivery outside of a single [type, prior= ity]=0A= traffic subset.=0A= =0A= > Note that I'm limiting this=0A= > comment to the architecture draft -- I'm not changing my view on what=0A= > should be documented in the ip solution draft, i.e., what was summarized= =0A= > in the IP related thread on the DetNet list.=0A= =0A= I think we're agreeing, but I'm not sure why the architecture draft is part= =0A= of this discussion thread. My 5-tuple vs. 6-tuple comment at the microphon= e=0A= was in the context of promising to carefully write some text for clarity in= =0A= this area of the IP solution draft.=0A= =0A= Thanks, --David=0A= =0A= > -----Original Message-----=0A= > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger=0A= > Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 3:05 AM=0A= > To: Black, David=0A= > Cc: detnet@ietf.org=0A= > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Your comment on 5 tuple vs 6 tuple flow identificat= ion=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > [EXTERNAL EMAIL]=0A= > Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitiv= e=0A= > information.=0A= >=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > On 11/8/2018 2:45 PM, Black, David wrote:=0A= > > Lou Berger writes:=0A= > >=0A= > >> I paraphrased my understanding of your comment on 5-tuple vs=0A= > >> 6-tuple as that 5 tuple can be used for next hop selection, but 6-tupl= e=0A= > >> (5+DSCP) should only be used for different traffic treatment. Assumin= g=0A= > >> this is correct, you're basically saying that a single 5-tuple flow=0A= > >> should never be sent over a different path through a network. Is this= a=0A= > >> correct interpretation of your comments?=0A= > >>=0A= > >> If so, how do you see Multi-topology (RFCs 4915, 5120, 7722) routing= =0A= > >> conforming/meeting this requirement?=0A= > > In practice, I'd generally expect network operators to configure topolo= gy=0A= > > selection so that each 5-tuple flow uses a single topology. Spreading= a=0A= > > 5-tuple flow across multiple topologies is likely to lead to packet reo= rdering=0A= > > that can cause negative effects on some transport protocols and applica= tions.=0A= >=0A= > While I don't disagree that this is reasonable, it isn't what is=0A= > supported by the MTR RFCs I reference above. Given those RFCs (and real= =0A= > deployments) don't preclude nexthop selection based on DSCP in this=0A= > document, i.e., at the architectural level. Note that I'm limiting this= =0A= > comment to the architecture draft -- I'm not changing my view on what=0A= > should be documented in the ip solution draft, i.e., what was summarized= =0A= > in the IP related thread on the DetNet list.=0A= >=0A= > Thanks,=0A= >=0A= > Lou=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > > In general, see the discussion of Transport Protocols and Reordering in= =0A= > > Section 5.1 of RFC 7657, which deals with reordering that arises from a= =0A= > > different cause: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7657#section-5.1.=0A= > >=0A= > > Thanks,=0A= > > --David=0A= > >=0A= > > _______________________________________________=0A= > > detnet mailing list=0A= > > detnet@ietf.org=0A= > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=0A= >=0A= > _______________________________________________=0A= > detnet mailing list=0A= > detnet@ietf.org=0A= > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=0A= _______________________________________________=0A= detnet mailing list=0A= detnet@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=0A= From nobody Thu Nov 8 19:53:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8976F1277BB for ; 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Thu, 8 Nov 2018 22:52:34 -0500 To: Norman Finn , Lou Berger CC: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Your comment on 5 tuple vs 6 tuple flow identification Thread-Index: AQHUdzPr5rptobuymEmTzSwf4nKM/6VFfEyAgABcpoCAABvVIIABE8YA///HWuA= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 03:52:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3a071fa3-681b-99ed-0c1f-e1183c491d82@labn.net>, <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8016FBFD8@lhrpml504-mbs.exmail.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8016FBFD8@lhrpml504-mbs.exmail.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.36.32.164] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd53.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-11-08_13:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1807170000 definitions=main-1811090033 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Your comment on 5 tuple vs 6 tuple flow identification X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 03:53:15 -0000 And to complete the Web RTC story - to a first approximation, what's going = on there is that independent flows at the application layer that would be o= n separate 5-tuples (and different DSCPs) are being multiplexed onto a sing= le 5-tuple in order to more effectively do battle with NATs. That raises t= he question of whether the IP solution needs to support this sort of flow m= ultiplexing - in private discussion, Lou has advocated that this functional= ity is important. Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: Norman Finn [mailto:norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 9:12 PM > To: Black, David; Lou Berger > Cc: detnet@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Detnet] Your comment on 5 tuple vs 6 tuple flow identificat= ion >=20 >=20 > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitiv= e > information. >=20 >=20 > I rather like David's "flow =3D 5-tuple, QoS =3D 6-tuple". >=20 > It may be that there are RFCs that permit the DCSP to influence the choic= e of > output interface, but I definitely don't want DetNet to require or assume= this > capability. >=20 > FWIW, IEEE 802 is very strict about that; L2 priority does not influence > forwarding -- only QoS. >=20 > -- Norm >=20 > ________________________________________ > From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Black, David > [David.Black@dell.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2018 7:06 AM > To: Lou Berger > Cc: detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Your comment on 5 tuple vs 6 tuple flow identificat= ion >=20 > Lou, >=20 > I think that there are two subtly different concepts here: >=20 > >> you're basically saying that a single 5-tuple flow > >> should never be sent over a different path through a network. >=20 > I think that overstates what I said, but it's also not the same concept a= s: >=20 > >> Given those RFCs (and real > >> deployments) don't preclude nexthop selection based on DSCP in this > >> document, i.e., at the architectural level. >=20 > Nexthop selection based on DSCP seems ok. Senders are supposed to mark > flows, at least for reliable delivery transport protocols, with only one = or > a consistent set of DSCPs is used that won't cause reordering (for more o= n > this see RFC 7657). >=20 > Web RTC mixes a bunch of different types and priorities of traffic onto a > single 5-tuple, and can use a variety of DSCPs for it - see > draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos. If one uses DSCP for next hop selection, > that would result in different paths for different types & priorities of = traffic, > which could result in extensive reordering. That's ok, as the Web RTC > receiver is not expecting ordered delivery outside of a single [type, pri= ority] > traffic subset. >=20 > > Note that I'm limiting this > > comment to the architecture draft -- I'm not changing my view on what > > should be documented in the ip solution draft, i.e., what was summarize= d > > in the IP related thread on the DetNet list. >=20 > I think we're agreeing, but I'm not sure why the architecture draft is pa= rt > of this discussion thread. My 5-tuple vs. 6-tuple comment at the microph= one > was in the context of promising to carefully write some text for clarity = in > this area of the IP solution draft. >=20 > Thanks, --David >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger > > Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 3:05 AM > > To: Black, David > > Cc: detnet@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Your comment on 5 tuple vs 6 tuple flow identific= ation > > > > > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensit= ive > > information. > > > > > > > > On 11/8/2018 2:45 PM, Black, David wrote: > > > Lou Berger writes: > > > > > >> I paraphrased my understanding of your comment on 5-tuple vs > > >> 6-tuple as that 5 tuple can be used for next hop selection, but 6-tu= ple > > >> (5+DSCP) should only be used for different traffic treatment. Assum= ing > > >> this is correct, you're basically saying that a single 5-tuple flow > > >> should never be sent over a different path through a network. Is th= is a > > >> correct interpretation of your comments? > > >> > > >> If so, how do you see Multi-topology (RFCs 4915, 5120, 7722) routing > > >> conforming/meeting this requirement? > > > In practice, I'd generally expect network operators to configure topo= logy > > > selection so that each 5-tuple flow uses a single topology. Spreadi= ng a > > > 5-tuple flow across multiple topologies is likely to lead to packet r= eordering > > > that can cause negative effects on some transport protocols and > applications. > > > > While I don't disagree that this is reasonable, it isn't what is > > supported by the MTR RFCs I reference above. Given those RFCs (and rea= l > > deployments) don't preclude nexthop selection based on DSCP in this > > document, i.e., at the architectural level. Note that I'm limiting thi= s > > comment to the architecture draft -- I'm not changing my view on what > > should be documented in the ip solution draft, i.e., what was summarize= d > > in the IP related thread on the DetNet list. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Lou > > > > > > > In general, see the discussion of Transport Protocols and Reordering = in > > > Section 5.1 of RFC 7657, which deals with reordering that arises from= a > > > different cause: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7657#section-5.1. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > --David > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > detnet mailing list > > > detnet@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Thu Nov 8 20:24:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D29971277BB for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 20:24:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dolby.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 55s7V8-ksqae for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 20:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM02-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-sn1nam02on0101.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.36.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F30CD127598 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 20:24:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dolby.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=cY5MeuT+krulY4YeqKGpvPXK97NMP8Asr9bdwN/sbX8=; b=JolNPN7I95MaPKX2R6v2s3wcboei7ZcL2+w4BW584B4XQE85lZjsoo3eaFP8qy8H7IxCNl5RmeasRzxP+GkuQzdzGipsKlQ+O1hkSEpMTWs9LwYVC30qi+fsyUGelRkkzMI+18KoSjkv0IlfFnON6h5Ob/pBB7jsSuNoxBf2rnE= Received: from BL0PR06MB4548.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (20.177.145.145) by BL0PR06MB4980.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.167.235.88) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1294.30; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 04:24:49 +0000 Received: from BL0PR06MB4548.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a1e4:ef9a:133f:b991]) by BL0PR06MB4548.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a1e4:ef9a:133f:b991%3]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.034; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 04:24:49 +0000 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." 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boundary="_000_BL0PR06MB45481F627F93527B4B8437B5C4C60BL0PR06MB4548namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: dolby.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 5ac85b45-e110-44b4-1f4a-08d645fb4977 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Nov 2018 04:24:48.8811 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 05408d25-cd0d-40c8-8962-5462de64a318 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR06MB4980 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Considerations for IP and MPLS meetup notes - IETF 103 7Nov18 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 04:24:56 -0000 --_000_BL0PR06MB45481F627F93527B4B8437B5C4C60BL0PR06MB4548namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Regarding item #2 below, we checked with Stewart and it turns out that both= MPLS and IP running on a given device use the same buffers, so there is no= intrinsic difference between them in that respect. Thus item #2 now looks = like: 1. IP is store-and-forward, thus there are queues and the allowed possib= ility that packets arriving late will be queued. This is in contrast to MPL= S which has very low tolerance for variance in packet timing, i.e. late pac= kets will be dropped since there is essentially no buffering (ask Stewart B= ryant about where it says this in the MPLS spec?). One implication is that = buffering provides an attack surface for delaying packets. Another is that = because IP can be run over links that are more subject to delays, it is lik= ely that it will be run over such links, and as noted above, such links pro= vide a larger attack surface for delay attacks. Ethan. From: Grossman, Ethan A. Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2018 10:34 AM To: 'detnet@ietf.org' ; 'Ehsan MohammadPour' Subject: DetNet Security Considerations for IP and MPLS meetup notes - IETF= 103 7Nov18 Hi All, Here is my summary of the DetNet Security Considerations for IP and MPLS me= etup yesterday. If you have any comments or additions, please let us know. Best, Ethan (as DetNet Security Considerations Draft Editor). P.S. Ehsan, get on the list! :- ) --------------------------------------------------- Meeting: DetNet Security - IP and MPLS dataplane technologies security con= siderations. Date: IETF 103 - 7Nov18. Present: David Black, Ethan Grossman, Norm Finn, Ehsan Mohammadpour, Tal Mi= zrahi Agenda: Enumerate security considerations that are specific to the use of I= P and MPLS as DetNet data plane technologies. 1. It may be possible for an attacker to add additional fields to (or us= e specific values for) an IP header (outside of the 5-tuple and DSCP value)= resulting in routers diverting such packets away from DetNet data path to = the router's control processor to figure out what to do with them. This cou= ld be used to mount a delay attack on a DetNet. IPv6 has such header extens= ions. 2. IP is store-and-forward, thus there are queues and the allowed possib= ility that packets arriving late will be queued. This is in contrast to MPL= S which has very low tolerance for variance in packet timing, i.e. late pac= kets will be dropped since there is essentially no buffering (ask Stewart B= ryant about where it says this in the MPLS spec?). One implication is that = buffering provides an attack surface for delaying packets. Another is that = because IP can be run over links that are more subject to delays, it is lik= ely that it will be run over such links, and as noted above, such links pro= vide a larger attack surface for delay attacks. 3. DetNet over IP will require an "MPLS-class" control plane for routing= over fixed paths, which is relatively new to IP, and thus likely to be exp= loited. 4. Attacking the control plane is an obvious way to attack DetNet. One w= ay to mitigate this is to isolate the control plane from outside interferen= ce as much as possible. 5. We agreed that this material was appropriate for inclusion in the IP = dataplane draft (as opposed to the existing DetNet Security draft). 6. It was opined that comparisons should be between what an IP router wo= uld do by default against DetNet requirements, i.e. not compared against MP= LS. It was also noted that there are places in the IP draft that mention MP= LS, and that perhaps such comparisons are in some way informative. Ethan cu= rrently feels that such comparisons are informative and so they have not be= en eliminated from these notes, although they could be eliminated from the = final text if the group decides to. 7. IP can run over badly managed gear, though DetNet requires/assumes a = well-managed network. The mitigation is "don't do that". Controlled Environ= ment (RFC 8085 UDP guidelines, applies beyond UDP), removes a lot of things= that can go wrong with IP networks because something is watching out for i= t. 8. There was a discussion about whether we can defer discussion of time = base security to e.g. Time Protocols Security draft. This is not specific t= o IP or MPLS and is thus not included here. 9. The point was raised that if DetNet is running on a link for which th= ere is arbitration for access to the link that this could be an attack surf= ace. However DetNet requires a deterministic link, i.e. not an arbitrated o= ne, so this was not considered a valid concern. 10. We would like to get Stewart (for his deep MPLS knowledge) and David = in same room - could sort out some things in more detail. Stewart and David= to figure out when to do this, e.g. at the DetNet session. ----------------------------------------------- --_000_BL0PR06MB45481F627F93527B4B8437B5C4C60BL0PR06MB4548namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Regarding item #2 below, we checked with Stewart and= it turns out that both MPLS and IP running on a given device use the same = buffers, so there is no intrinsic difference between them in that respect. = Thus item #2 now looks like:

  1. IP is store-and-forward, thus there are queues and the allowed possib= ility that packets arriving late will be queued. This is in contrast to MPLS which has very low tolerance for variance in= packet timing, i.e. late packets will be dropped since there is essentiall= y no buffering (ask Stewart Bryant about where it says this in the MPLS spe= c?). One implication is that buffering provides an attack surface for delaying packets. Another is that= because IP can be run over links that are more subject to delays, it is li= kely that it will be run over such links, and as noted above, such links pr= ovide a larger attack surface for delay attacks.

Ethan.

 

From: Grossman, Ethan A.
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2018 10:34 AM
To: 'detnet@ietf.org' <detnet@ietf.org>; 'Ehsan MohammadPour' = <ehsanmpd@gmail.com>
Subject: DetNet Security Considerations for IP and MPLS meetup notes= - IETF 103 7Nov18

 

Hi All,

Here is my summary of the DetNet Security Considerat= ions for IP and MPLS meetup yesterday. If you have any comments or addition= s, please let us know.

Best,

Ethan (as DetNet Security Considerations Draft Edito= r).

P.S. Ehsan, get on the list! :- )

---------------------------------------------------<= o:p>

Meeting: DetNet Security – IP and MPLS datapla= ne technologies security  considerations.

Date: IETF 103 -  7Nov18.  

Present: David Black, Ethan Grossman, Norm Finn, Ehs= an Mohammadpour, Tal Mizrahi

Agenda: Enumerate security considerations that are s= pecific to the use of IP and MPLS as DetNet data plane technologies.  =

  1. It may be possibl= e for an attacker to add additional fields to (or use specific values for) = an IP header (outside of the 5-tuple and DSCP value) resulting in routers d= iverting such packets away from DetNet data path to the router’s control processor to figure out what to do= with them. This could be used to mount a delay attack on a DetNet. IPv6 ha= s such header extensions.
  2. I= P is store-and-forward, thus there are queues and the allowed possibility t= hat packets arriving late will be queued. This is in contrast to MPLS which= has very low tolerance for variance in packet timing, i.e. late packets will be dropped since there is essentially no buffering = (ask Stewart Bryant about where it says this in the MPLS spec?). One implic= ation is that buffering provides an attack surface for delaying packets. An= other is that because IP can be run over links that are more subject to delays, it is likely that it will = be run over such links, and as noted above, such links provide a larger att= ack surface for delay attacks.
  3. D= etNet over IP will require an “MPLS-class” control plane for ro= uting over fixed paths, which is relatively new to IP, and thus likely to b= e exploited.
  4. A= ttacking the control plane is an obvious way to attack DetNet. One way to m= itigate this is to isolate the control plane from outside interference as m= uch as possible.
  5. W= e agreed that this material was appropriate for inclusion in the IP datapla= ne draft (as opposed to the existing DetNet Security draft).
  6. I= t was opined that comparisons should be between what an IP router would do = by default against DetNet requirements, i.e. not compared against MPLS. It = was also noted that there are places in the IP draft that mention MPLS, and that perhaps such comparisons are in some way infor= mative. Ethan currently feels that such comparisons are informative and so = they have not been eliminated from these notes, although they could be elim= inated from the final text if the group decides to.  
  7. IP can run over badly managed gear, though DetNet r= equires/assumes a well-managed network. The mitigation is “don’= t do that”. Controlled Environment (RFC 8085 UDP guidelines, applies = beyond UDP), removes a lot of things that can go wrong with IP networks because something is wa= tching out for it.
  8. There was a discussion about whether we can defer discussi= on of time base security to e.g. Time Protocols Security draft. This is not= specific to IP or MPLS and is thus not included here.
  9. T= he point was raised that if DetNet is running on a link for which there is = arbitration for access to the link that this could be an attack surface. Ho= wever DetNet requires a deterministic link, i.e. not an arbitrated one, so this was not considered a valid concern.<= /li>
  10. We would like= to get Stewart (for his deep MPLS knowledge) and David in same room –= ; could sort out some things in more detail. Stewart and David to figure ou= t when to do this, e.g. at the DetNet session.

-----------------------------------------------=

 

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To: "detnet@ietf.org" , Ehsan MohammadPour Thread-Topic: DetNet Security Considerations for IP and MPLS meetup notes - IETF 103 7Nov18 Thread-Index: AdR3E7LkHtFzfCsRQG+Zd7mv4JObgwAz5prAAAA4D1A= Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 04:29:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-dg-ref: PG1ldGE+PGF0IG5tPSJib2R5Lmh0bWwiIHA9ImM6XHVzZXJzXGVhZ3Jvc1xhcHBkYXRhXHJvYW1pbmdcMDlkODQ5YjYtMzJkMy00YTQwLTg1ZWUtNmI4NGJhMjllMzViXG1zZ3NcbXNnLTA3MzljN2FhLWUzZDgtMTFlOC1iZDJhLWFjYmMzMjdhNTFjNlxhbWUtdGVzdFwwNzM5YzdhYy1lM2Q4LTExZTgtYmQyYS1hY2JjMzI3YTUxYzZib2R5Lmh0bWwiIHN6PSIxMjk3NSIgdD0iMTMxODYyMTEzNjE4Njg4Mzg4IiBoPSJQMWNYUTAxdnhNU1IyV2dlNUVMZ0lqMDI3NGM9IiBpZD0iIiBibD0iMCIgYm89IjEiLz48L21ldGE+ authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=eagros@dolby.com; x-originating-ip: [31.133.148.130] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BL0PR06MB4835; 6:fkYGOy1XbSORX/yny5vECzwfp39cRLCfRXBp1lJRf5avBKjaJqRLb+gDEQtF7K/0Jj65Mz+q13KyofFwlHzAR0xhnLxKoKVHcFMRTasKzZOaI3v8sB4a1MJXVbr6IvRVVT9O4OFQ9ccFvvocI/+XaTTMotSBVCMa8f41FzhQmztUFml8I1amxbgVg5pV8nY4YHgHmARxTMcaZNpzLfSlo/lf5/6gINvoJDTUYv/4tH9vvgLY+JUsC5ndNB5o0vZ/lrqg+HaOR8tHi00sSVs4edOVW33pxUy6eziIMXktdyzxk4oDOVXlMk6n/N5Y4XoH57bFvnX4tqJDAXvU/8jmgDxtUNat4q1LI23WICtCa8ozx5SkKABUXnXMREPH9KNghbMrBPGHLYsyKO/12ZPhx/D/kvyYJ10wH10Y5Bgx5J2E3hPauU3b+AnkJl9MU7ch183hwtvocq1tBT112n7gLw==; 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boundary="_000_BL0PR06MB45485B58A1A287C28F01C3E0C4C60BL0PR06MB4548namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: dolby.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 47a4cee6-ea8e-4ffe-6c07-08d645fbeedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Nov 2018 04:29:26.4003 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 05408d25-cd0d-40c8-8962-5462de64a318 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR06MB4835 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Considerations for IP and MPLS meetup notes - IETF 103 7Nov18 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 04:29:32 -0000 --_000_BL0PR06MB45485B58A1A287C28F01C3E0C4C60BL0PR06MB4548namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another security-related item arose from later discussion: the possibility = of an attack on a DetNet with the goal being to use the DetNet to attack ot= her networks. I am not sure what to do with this yet, but I thought the con= cept was novel. If anyone wants to provide any more detailed elaboration I'= d love to hear about it. Ethan. From: Grossman, Ethan A. Sent: Friday, November 09, 2018 11:25 AM To: 'detnet@ietf.org' ; 'Ehsan MohammadPour' Subject: RE: DetNet Security Considerations for IP and MPLS meetup notes - = IETF 103 7Nov18 Regarding item #2 below, we checked with Stewart and it turns out that both= MPLS and IP running on a given device use the same buffers, so there is no= intrinsic difference between them in that respect. Thus item #2 now looks = like: 1. IP is store-and-forward, thus there are queues and the allowed possib= ility that packets arriving late will be queued. This is in contrast to MPL= S which has very low tolerance for variance in packet timing, i.e. late pac= kets will be dropped since there is essentially no buffering (ask Stewart B= ryant about where it says this in the MPLS spec?). One implication is that = buffering provides an attack surface for delaying packets. Another is that = because IP can be run over links that are more subject to delays, it is lik= ely that it will be run over such links, and as noted above, such links pro= vide a larger attack surface for delay attacks. Ethan. From: Grossman, Ethan A. Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2018 10:34 AM To: 'detnet@ietf.org' >; 'Ehsan Moh= ammadPour' > Subject: DetNet Security Considerations for IP and MPLS meetup notes - IETF= 103 7Nov18 Hi All, Here is my summary of the DetNet Security Considerations for IP and MPLS me= etup yesterday. If you have any comments or additions, please let us know. Best, Ethan (as DetNet Security Considerations Draft Editor). P.S. Ehsan, get on the list! :- ) --------------------------------------------------- Meeting: DetNet Security - IP and MPLS dataplane technologies security con= siderations. Date: IETF 103 - 7Nov18. Present: David Black, Ethan Grossman, Norm Finn, Ehsan Mohammadpour, Tal Mi= zrahi Agenda: Enumerate security considerations that are specific to the use of I= P and MPLS as DetNet data plane technologies. 1. It may be possible for an attacker to add additional fields to (or us= e specific values for) an IP header (outside of the 5-tuple and DSCP value)= resulting in routers diverting such packets away from DetNet data path to = the router's control processor to figure out what to do with them. This cou= ld be used to mount a delay attack on a DetNet. IPv6 has such header extens= ions. 2. IP is store-and-forward, thus there are queues and the allowed possib= ility that packets arriving late will be queued. This is in contrast to MPL= S which has very low tolerance for variance in packet timing, i.e. late pac= kets will be dropped since there is essentially no buffering (ask Stewart B= ryant about where it says this in the MPLS spec?). One implication is that = buffering provides an attack surface for delaying packets. Another is that = because IP can be run over links that are more subject to delays, it is lik= ely that it will be run over such links, and as noted above, such links pro= vide a larger attack surface for delay attacks. 3. DetNet over IP will require an "MPLS-class" control plane for routing= over fixed paths, which is relatively new to IP, and thus likely to be exp= loited. 4. Attacking the control plane is an obvious way to attack DetNet. One w= ay to mitigate this is to isolate the control plane from outside interferen= ce as much as possible. 5. We agreed that this material was appropriate for inclusion in the IP = dataplane draft (as opposed to the existing DetNet Security draft). 6. It was opined that comparisons should be between what an IP router wo= uld do by default against DetNet requirements, i.e. not compared against MP= LS. It was also noted that there are places in the IP draft that mention MP= LS, and that perhaps such comparisons are in some way informative. Ethan cu= rrently feels that such comparisons are informative and so they have not be= en eliminated from these notes, although they could be eliminated from the = final text if the group decides to. 7. IP can run over badly managed gear, though DetNet requires/assumes a = well-managed network. The mitigation is "don't do that". Controlled Environ= ment (RFC 8085 UDP guidelines, applies beyond UDP), removes a lot of things= that can go wrong with IP networks because something is watching out for i= t. 8. There was a discussion about whether we can defer discussion of time = base security to e.g. Time Protocols Security draft. This is not specific t= o IP or MPLS and is thus not included here. 9. The point was raised that if DetNet is running on a link for which th= ere is arbitration for access to the link that this could be an attack surf= ace. However DetNet requires a deterministic link, i.e. not an arbitrated o= ne, so this was not considered a valid concern. 10. We would like to get Stewart (for his deep MPLS knowledge) and David = in same room - could sort out some things in more detail. Stewart and David= to figure out when to do this, e.g. at the DetNet session. ----------------------------------------------- --_000_BL0PR06MB45485B58A1A287C28F01C3E0C4C60BL0PR06MB4548namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Another security-related item arose from later discu= ssion: the possibility of an attack on a DetNet with the goal being to use = the DetNet to attack other networks. I am not sure what to do with this yet= , but I thought the concept was novel. If anyone wants to provide any more detailed elaboration I’d love to= hear about it.

Ethan.

From: Grossman, Ethan A.
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2018 11:25 AM
To: 'detnet@ietf.org' <detnet@ietf.org>; 'Ehsan MohammadPour' = <ehsanmpd@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: DetNet Security Considerations for IP and MPLS meetup n= otes - IETF 103 7Nov18

 

Regarding item #2 below, we checked with Stewart and= it turns out that both MPLS and IP running on a given device use the same = buffers, so there is no intrinsic difference between them in that respect. = Thus item #2 now looks like:

  1. IP is store-and-f= orward, thus there are queues and the allowed possibility that packets arri= ving late will be queued. This is in contrast to MPLS which has very low tolerance for variance in= packet timing, i.e. late packets will be dropped since there is essentiall= y no buffering (ask Stewart Bryant about where it says this in the MPLS spe= c?). One implication is that buffering provides an attack surface for delaying packets. Another is that= because IP can be run over links that are more subject to delays, it is li= kely that it will be run over such links, and as noted above, such links pr= ovide a larger attack surface for delay attacks.

Ethan.

 

From: Grossman, Ethan A.
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2018 10:34 AM
To: 'detnet@ietf.org' <detnet@= ietf.org>; 'Ehsan MohammadPour' <ehsanmpd@gmail.com>
Subject: DetNet Security Considerations for IP and MPLS meetup notes= - IETF 103 7Nov18

 

Hi All,

Here is my summary of the DetNet Security Considerat= ions for IP and MPLS meetup yesterday. If you have any comments or addition= s, please let us know.

Best,

Ethan (as DetNet Security Considerations Draft Edito= r).

P.S. Ehsan, get on the list! :- )

---------------------------------------------------<= o:p>

Meeting: DetNet Security – IP and MPLS datapla= ne technologies security  considerations.

Date: IETF 103 -  7Nov18.  

Present: David Black, Ethan Grossman, Norm Finn, Ehs= an Mohammadpour, Tal Mizrahi

Agenda: Enumerate security considerations that are s= pecific to the use of IP and MPLS as DetNet data plane technologies.  =

  1. It may be possibl= e for an attacker to add additional fields to (or use specific values for) = an IP header (outside of the 5-tuple and DSCP value) resulting in routers d= iverting such packets away from DetNet data path to the router’s control processor to figure out what to do= with them. This could be used to mount a delay attack on a DetNet. IPv6 ha= s such header extensions.
  2. I= P is store-and-forward, thus there are queues and the allowed possibility t= hat packets arriving late will be queued. This is in contrast to MPLS which= has very low tolerance for variance in packet timing, i.e. late packets will be dropped since there is essentially no buffering = (ask Stewart Bryant about where it says this in the MPLS spec?). One implic= ation is that buffering provides an attack surface for delaying packets. An= other is that because IP can be run over links that are more subject to delays, it is likely that it will = be run over such links, and as noted above, such links provide a larger att= ack surface for delay attacks.
  3. D= etNet over IP will require an “MPLS-class” control plane for ro= uting over fixed paths, which is relatively new to IP, and thus likely to b= e exploited.
  4. A= ttacking the control plane is an obvious way to attack DetNet. One way to m= itigate this is to isolate the control plane from outside interference as m= uch as possible.
  5. W= e agreed that this material was appropriate for inclusion in the IP datapla= ne draft (as opposed to the existing DetNet Security draft).
  6. I= t was opined that comparisons should be between what an IP router would do = by default against DetNet requirements, i.e. not compared against MPLS. It = was also noted that there are places in the IP draft that mention MPLS, and that perhaps such comparisons are in some way infor= mative. Ethan currently feels that such comparisons are informative and so = they have not been eliminated from these notes, although they could be elim= inated from the final text if the group decides to.  
  7. IP can run over badly managed gear, though DetNet r= equires/assumes a well-managed network. The mitigation is “don’= t do that”. Controlled Environment (RFC 8085 UDP guidelines, applies = beyond UDP), removes a lot of things that can go wrong with IP networks because something is wa= tching out for it.
  8. There was a discussion about whether we can defer discussi= on of time base security to e.g. Time Protocols Security draft. This is not= specific to IP or MPLS and is thus not included here.
  9. T= he point was raised that if DetNet is running on a link for which there is = arbitration for access to the link that this could be an attack surface. Ho= wever DetNet requires a deterministic link, i.e. not an arbitrated one, so this was not considered a valid concern.<= /li>
  10. We would like= to get Stewart (for his deep MPLS knowledge) and David in same room –= ; could sort out some things in more detail. Stewart and David to figure ou= t when to do this, e.g. at the DetNet session.

-----------------------------------------------=

 

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x-originating-ip: [10.36.32.164] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D2432779493630339292MX307CL04corpem_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd53.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-11-08_13:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1807170000 definitions=main-1811090041 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Considerations for IP and MPLS meetup notes - IETF 103 7Nov18 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 04:37:24 -0000 --_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D2432779493630339292MX307CL04corpem_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ethan, By coincidence, I just posted a note to the list about this sort of attack = in the context of the architecture draft. My 0.02 is that this concern should be dealt with separately from the secur= ity draft and security considerations sections of the protocol drafts. Fo= r worked examples of how this can be done, please see the Congestion Consid= erations sections in RFC 7510 (MPLS/UDP) and RFC 8086 (GRE/UDP). Thanks, --David From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Grossman, Ethan = A. Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 11:29 PM To: detnet@ietf.org; Ehsan MohammadPour Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Considerations for IP and MPLS meetup= notes - IETF 103 7Nov18 [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive = information. Another security-related item arose from later discussion: the possibility = of an attack on a DetNet with the goal being to use the DetNet to attack ot= her networks. I am not sure what to do with this yet, but I thought the con= cept was novel. If anyone wants to provide any more detailed elaboration I'= d love to hear about it. Ethan. From: Grossman, Ethan A. Sent: Friday, November 09, 2018 11:25 AM To: 'detnet@ietf.org' >; 'Ehsan Moh= ammadPour' > Subject: RE: DetNet Security Considerations for IP and MPLS meetup notes - = IETF 103 7Nov18 Regarding item #2 below, we checked with Stewart and it turns out that both= MPLS and IP running on a given device use the same buffers, so there is no= intrinsic difference between them in that respect. Thus item #2 now looks = like: 2) IP is store-and-forward, thus there are queues and the allowed poss= ibility that packets arriving late will be queued. This is in contrast to M= PLS which has very low tolerance for variance in packet timing, i.e. late p= ackets will be dropped since there is essentially no buffering (ask Stewart= Bryant about where it says this in the MPLS spec?). One implication is tha= t buffering provides an attack surface for delaying packets. Another is tha= t because IP can be run over links that are more subject to delays, it is l= ikely that it will be run over such links, and as noted above, such links p= rovide a larger attack surface for delay attacks. Ethan. From: Grossman, Ethan A. Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2018 10:34 AM To: 'detnet@ietf.org' >; 'Ehsan Moh= ammadPour' > Subject: DetNet Security Considerations for IP and MPLS meetup notes - IETF= 103 7Nov18 Hi All, Here is my summary of the DetNet Security Considerations for IP and MPLS me= etup yesterday. If you have any comments or additions, please let us know. Best, Ethan (as DetNet Security Considerations Draft Editor). P.S. Ehsan, get on the list! :- ) --------------------------------------------------- Meeting: DetNet Security - IP and MPLS dataplane technologies security con= siderations. Date: IETF 103 - 7Nov18. Present: David Black, Ethan Grossman, Norm Finn, Ehsan Mohammadpour, Tal Mi= zrahi Agenda: Enumerate security considerations that are specific to the use of I= P and MPLS as DetNet data plane technologies. 1) It may be possible for an attacker to add additional fields to (or = use specific values for) an IP header (outside of the 5-tuple and DSCP valu= e) resulting in routers diverting such packets away from DetNet data path t= o the router's control processor to figure out what to do with them. This c= ould be used to mount a delay attack on a DetNet. IPv6 has such header exte= nsions. 2) IP is store-and-forward, thus there are queues and the allowed poss= ibility that packets arriving late will be queued. This is in contrast to M= PLS which has very low tolerance for variance in packet timing, i.e. late p= ackets will be dropped since there is essentially no buffering (ask Stewart= Bryant about where it says this in the MPLS spec?). One implication is tha= t buffering provides an attack surface for delaying packets. Another is tha= t because IP can be run over links that are more subject to delays, it is l= ikely that it will be run over such links, and as noted above, such links p= rovide a larger attack surface for delay attacks. 3) DetNet over IP will require an "MPLS-class" control plane for routi= ng over fixed paths, which is relatively new to IP, and thus likely to be e= xploited. 4) Attacking the control plane is an obvious way to attack DetNet. One= way to mitigate this is to isolate the control plane from outside interfer= ence as much as possible. 5) We agreed that this material was appropriate for inclusion in the I= P dataplane draft (as opposed to the existing DetNet Security draft). 6) It was opined that comparisons should be between what an IP router = would do by default against DetNet requirements, i.e. not compared against = MPLS. It was also noted that there are places in the IP draft that mention = MPLS, and that perhaps such comparisons are in some way informative. Ethan = currently feels that such comparisons are informative and so they have not = been eliminated from these notes, although they could be eliminated from th= e final text if the group decides to. 7) IP can run over badly managed gear, though DetNet requires/assumes = a well-managed network. The mitigation is "don't do that". Controlled Envir= onment (RFC 8085 UDP guidelines, applies beyond UDP), removes a lot of thin= gs that can go wrong with IP networks because something is watching out for= it. 8) There was a discussion about whether we can defer discussion of tim= e base security to e.g. Time Protocols Security draft. This is not specific= to IP or MPLS and is thus not included here. 9) The point was raised that if DetNet is running on a link for which = there is arbitration for access to the link that this could be an attack su= rface. However DetNet requires a deterministic link, i.e. not an arbitrated= one, so this was not considered a valid concern. 10) We would like to get Stewart (for his deep MPLS knowledge) and David = in same room - could sort out some things in more detail. Stewart and David= to figure out when to do this, e.g. at the DetNet session. ----------------------------------------------- --_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D2432779493630339292MX307CL04corpem_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Ethan,

By coincidence, I just= posted a note to the list about this sort of attack in the context of the = architecture draft.

My 0.02 is that this c= oncern should be dealt with separately from the security draft and security= considerations sections of the protocol drafts.   For worked exa= mples of how this can be done, please see the Congestion Considerations sections in RFC 7510 (MPLS/UDP) and RFC 8086 (GR= E/UDP).

Thanks, --David

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gr= ossman, Ethan A.
Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 11:29 PM
To: detnet@ietf.org; Ehsan MohammadPour
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Security Considerations for IP and MPLS= meetup notes - IETF 103 7Nov18

 

[EXTERNAL E= MAIL]
Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive = information.

Another security-related item arose from later discu= ssion: the possibility of an attack on a DetNet with the goal being to use = the DetNet to attack other networks. I am not sure what to do with this yet= , but I thought the concept was novel. If anyone wants to provide any more detailed elaboration I’d love to= hear about it.

Ethan.

From: Grossman, Ethan A.
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2018 11:25 AM
To: 'detnet@ietf.org' <detnet@= ietf.org>; 'Ehsan MohammadPour' <ehsanmpd@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: DetNet Security Considerations for IP and MPLS meetup n= otes - IETF 103 7Nov18

 

Regarding item #2 below, we checked with Stewart and= it turns out that both MPLS and IP running on a given device use the same = buffers, so there is no intrinsic difference between them in that respect. = Thus item #2 now looks like:

2)      IP is store-and-forward, thus there are queues and = the allowed possibility that packets arriving late will be queued. This is in contrast to MPLS which has very low tolerance for variance in= packet timing, i.e. late packets will be dropped since there is essentiall= y no buffering (ask Stewart Bryant about where it says this in the MPLS spe= c?). One implication is that buffering provides an attack surface for delaying packets. Another is that= because IP can be run over links that are more subject to delays, it is li= kely that it will be run over such links, and as noted above, such links pr= ovide a larger attack surface for delay attacks.

Ethan.

 

From: Grossman, Ethan A.
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2018 10:34 AM
To: 'detnet@ietf.org' <detnet@= ietf.org>; 'Ehsan MohammadPour' <ehsanmpd@gmail.com>
Subject: DetNet Security Considerations for IP and MPLS meetup notes= - IETF 103 7Nov18

 

Hi All,

Here is my summary of the DetNet Security Considerat= ions for IP and MPLS meetup yesterday. If you have any comments or addition= s, please let us know.

Best,

Ethan (as DetNet Security Considerations Draft Edito= r).

P.S. Ehsan, get on the list! :- )

---------------------------------------------------<= o:p>

Meeting: DetNet Security – IP and MPLS datapla= ne technologies security  considerations.

Date: IETF 103 -  7Nov18.  

Present: David Black, Ethan Grossman, Norm Finn, Ehs= an Mohammadpour, Tal Mizrahi

Agenda: Enumerate security considerations that are s= pecific to the use of IP and MPLS as DetNet data plane technologies.  =

1)      It may be possible for an attacker to add additiona= l fields to (or use specific values for) an IP header (outside of the 5-tup= le and DSCP value) resulting in routers diverting such packets away from De= tNet data path to the router’s control processor to figure out what to do with them. This could be used to mount = a delay attack on a DetNet. IPv6 has such header extensions.

2)      IP is store-and-forward, thus there are queues and = the allowed possibility that packets arriving late will be queued. This is = in contrast to MPLS which has very low tolerance for variance in packet tim= ing, i.e. late packets will be dropped since there is essentially no buffering (ask Stewart Bryant about where it= says this in the MPLS spec?). One implication is that buffering provides a= n attack surface for delaying packets. Another is that because IP can be ru= n over links that are more subject to delays, it is likely that it will be run over such links, and as noted = above, such links provide a larger attack surface for delay attacks.

3)      DetNet over IP will require an “MPLS-class= 221; control plane for routing over fixed paths, which is relatively new to= IP, and thus likely to be exploited.

4)      Attacking the control plane is an obvious way to at= tack DetNet. One way to mitigate this is to isolate the control plane from = outside interference as much as possible.

5)      We agreed that this material was appropriate for in= clusion in the IP dataplane draft (as opposed to the existing DetNet Securi= ty draft).

6)      It was opined that comparisons should be between wh= at an IP router would do by default against DetNet requirements, i.e. not c= ompared against MPLS. It was also noted that there are places in the IP dra= ft that mention MPLS, and that perhaps such comparisons are in some way informative. Ethan currently feels that s= uch comparisons are informative and so they have not been eliminated from t= hese notes, although they could be eliminated from the final text if the gr= oup decides to.  

7)      IP can run over badly managed gear, though DetNet r= equires/assumes a well-managed network. The mitigation is “don’= t do that”. Controlled Environment (RFC 8085 UDP guidelines, applies = beyond UDP), removes a lot of things that can go wrong with IP networks because something is watching out for it.

8)      There was a discussion about whether we can defer d= iscussion of time base security to e.g. Time Protocols Security draft. This= is not specific to IP or MPLS and is thus not included here.

9)      The point was raised that if DetNet is running on a= link for which there is arbitration for access to the link that this could= be an attack surface. However DetNet requires a deterministic link, i.e. n= ot an arbitrated one, so this was not considered a valid concern.

10)   We would like to get Stewart (for his deep MPLS kno= wledge) and David in same room – could sort out some things in more d= etail. Stewart and David to figure out when to do this, e.g. at the DetNet = session.

-----------------------------------------------=

 

--_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D2432779493630339292MX307CL04corpem_-- From nobody Thu Nov 8 20:41:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E3131277BB for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 20:41:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kCie8iwe-XS8 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 20:41:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.23.142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AA8912958B for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 20:41:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw14.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.14]) by gproxy4.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A33B7175BDD for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 21:36:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id KyXEgeNqwvdTuKyXEgwFtE; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 21:36:44 -0700 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=elCyv9JT+JnKTnvzyUVPBCsqgK2HphpOKMiuzKs6l+w=; b=DHWNO0iAJduNW7dYTtmvztASjt MX6dfF1pPbUeq+Ohk/6i55NomuWLSMMBrBZkIQzTzvgxkAFJL+VyXwN9M4giPKKgdU/ibhPyptttU 2orPxkI77/nDhEAH9BFn1mkSc; Received: from pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.106.211]:34178 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gKyXD-002t06-W3; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 21:36:44 -0700 To: "Black, David" Cc: "detnet@ietf.org" References: <3a071fa3-681b-99ed-0c1f-e1183c491d82@labn.net> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <7d3926b6-f282-59f1-c983-5edb0664fb7a@labn.net> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 11:36:39 +0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.106.211 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gKyXD-002t06-W3 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.106.211]:34178 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 2 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Your comment on 5 tuple vs 6 tuple flow identification X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 04:41:12 -0000 Hi David, On 11/8/2018 10:06 PM, Black, David wrote: > Lou, > > I think that there are two subtly different concepts here: > >>> you're basically saying that a single 5-tuple flow >>> should never be sent over a different path through a network. > I think that overstates what I said, but it's also not the same concept as: > >>> Given those RFCs (and real >>> deployments) don't preclude nexthop selection based on DSCP in this >>> document, i.e., at the architectural level. > Nexthop selection based on DSCP seems ok. Senders are supposed to mark > flows, at least for reliable delivery transport protocols, with only one or > a consistent set of DSCPs is used that won't cause reordering (for more on > this see RFC 7657). I think this works in practice in environments where there is remarking based on 5-tuple.  I'm less sure (and have less experience with) of the case where end applications are doing marking within the same 5-tuple, but certainly know that such is allowed and may be useful to certain DetNet applications. > Web RTC mixes a bunch of different types and priorities of traffic onto a > single 5-tuple, and can use a variety of DSCPs for it - see > draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos. If one uses DSCP for next hop selection, > that would result in different paths for different types & priorities of traffic, > which could result in extensive reordering. That's ok, as the Web RTC > receiver is not expecting ordered delivery outside of a single [type, priority] > traffic subset. > >> Note that I'm limiting this >> comment to the architecture draft -- I'm not changing my view on what >> should be documented in the ip solution draft, i.e., what was summarized >> in the IP related thread on the DetNet list. > I think we're agreeing, but I'm not sure why the architecture draft is part > of this discussion thread. My 5-tuple vs. 6-tuple comment at the microphone > was in the context of promising to carefully write some text for clarity in > this area of the IP solution draft. Fair enough, I think I misinterpreted your statements as architectural restrictions vs a practical one.  Keeping in mind that we've been informally calling this the 'simplified IP' solution,  adding reasonable restrictions in the solution draft sounds fine to me.  (with any hat) Lou > Thanks, --David > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger >> Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 3:05 AM >> To: Black, David >> Cc: detnet@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] Your comment on 5 tuple vs 6 tuple flow identification >> >> >> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] >> Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive >> information. >> >> >> >> On 11/8/2018 2:45 PM, Black, David wrote: >>> Lou Berger writes: >>> >>>>     I paraphrased my understanding of your comment on 5-tuple vs >>>> 6-tuple as that 5 tuple can be used for next hop selection, but 6-tuple >>>> (5+DSCP) should only be used for different traffic treatment.  Assuming >>>> this is correct, you're basically saying that a single 5-tuple flow >>>> should never be sent over a different path through a network.  Is this a >>>> correct interpretation of your comments? >>>> >>>> If so, how do you see Multi-topology (RFCs 4915, 5120, 7722) routing >>>> conforming/meeting this requirement? >>> In practice, I'd generally expect network operators to configure topology >>> selection so that each 5-tuple flow uses a single topology. Spreading a >>> 5-tuple flow across multiple topologies is likely to lead to packet reordering >>> that can cause negative effects on some transport protocols and applications. >> While I don't disagree that this is reasonable, it isn't what is >> supported by the MTR RFCs I reference above.  Given those RFCs (and real >> deployments) don't preclude nexthop selection based on DSCP in this >> document, i.e., at the architectural level.  Note that I'm limiting this >> comment to the architecture draft -- I'm not changing my view on what >> should be documented in the ip solution draft, i.e., what was summarized >> in the IP related thread on the DetNet list. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Lou >> >> >>> In general, see the discussion of Transport Protocols and Reordering in >>> Section 5.1 of RFC 7657, which deals with reordering that arises from a >>> different cause: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7657#section-5.1. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> --David >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Thu Nov 8 21:08:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D3512958B; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 21:08:47 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Improper folded header field made up entirely of whitespace (char 20 hex): References: ...15213B@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de>\n X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.171 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.171 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, 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Xw0KPiA+ID4gVHN2LWFydCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gPiA+IFRzdi1hcnRAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4g PiA+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vdHN2LWFydA0K From nobody Thu Nov 8 22:38:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87681130E02 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 22:38:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zqydVnzmq9Uh for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 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:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=3zGrer0ZNnw4NsCp0eWLtE/hijr/kgjY8hRgx+FELi4=; b=032e595wiyOjqS6I8hnAmPXGFA GaMK8APOoCX/rNOcK9hj/Lsw1hEg1qNdw45IdlRPSDCMcEMQroxbjBViDshL2MZvrgjCjA7/42EhV q2Wrwgs91z8bg6lLEfjtsJcyP; Received: from pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.106.211]:42410 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gL0QT-003Pi6-QD; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 23:37:54 -0700 To: "Black, David" , "Scharf, Michael" , =?UTF-8?B?J0rDoW5vcyBGYXJrYXMn?= Cc: "tsv-art@ietf.org" , DetNet WG , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" References: <0bb7176c-c386-b863-a4f8-06254f4627ab@ericsson.com> <1705d15c-c7ba-c76f-88db-c75f1a88db0f@ericsson.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D143BE1@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D15213B@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <6bfa3a1f-3460-adce-1615-9a5ff31bac9c@labn.net> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 13:37:48 +0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.106.211 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gL0QT-003Pi6-QD X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.106.211]:42410 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 5 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 06:38:03 -0000 David,     I think we're at the point were some specific proposed language would be helpful at this point.  (FYI - I'm responding to Michael's message, just need some time to finish..) What language would you like to see in addition to the text you quoted below. See below for more specific and secondary responses. On 11/9/2018 12:08 PM, Black, David wrote: > Acronym expansion correction: > >> I've been there, done that for other >> Controlled Environments ... and have the scars ... from the worked examples in >> RFC 7510 (MPLS/UDP) and RFC 8086's TMCE (Traffic Management Controlled >> Environment) applicability scenario for GRE/UDP. Those two RFCs may be >> helpful background reading. > TMCE = Traffic-Managed Controlled Environment > > The spelling corrector "helped" with the original ;-) > > Thanks, --David > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Black, David >> Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 11:33 PM >> To: 'Scharf, Michael'; 'Lou Berger'; 'János Farkas' >> Cc: 'tsv-art@ietf.org'; 'DetNet WG'; 'draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org'; >> Black, David >> Subject: RE: [Tsv-art] [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet- >> architecture-08 >> >> So, I'm going to agree with Michael on the problem, but suggest a different >> approach for tackling it, with apologies for the length of this message >> necessitated by the need to "show your work." >> >> I think this comment from Lou is a key insight into the underlying divergence of >> views: >> >>>> DetNet operates at Layer 3 and basically provides detnet flows with a >>>> service equivalent to IntServ's Guaranteed Quality of Service. As such, >>>> DetNet flows basically operate as if the network is uncongested. >> And hence DetNet flows have no requirement or incentive to react to >> congestion, even though some DetNet traffic will no doubt react to congestion. This may be true, but this is an issue for users of DetNet services, not DetNet.  This is an important distinction and one we can reflect in the architecture document -- i.e., that users/applications/transport protocols using detnet need to address this and for those uses https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8084#section-3.2.2 applies. >> >> That quoted comment is followed by a "reduce to previous case" argument >> about networking in general: >> >>>> WRT escaped traffic, as I mentioned in today's session, I really think >>>> this is no difference between escaped DetNet traffic and traffic >>>> delivered over an uncongested network to a peer (congested or >>>> uncongested) network. >> Unfortunately, that argument leads to a contradiction, namely a conclusion that >> congestion control is not necessary for the Internet, which is known to be >> wrong. Having arrived at a result that mathematicians would call "proof by >> contradiction," one of the assumptions that lead to this point has to be wrong, >> but which one? Sure, but the current internet architecture, for good or bad, puts the burden for congestion control at the transport protocol layer not the network layer - and DetNet is about control and service delivery at the network layer. >> >> The "clear, simple and wrong" (Mencken) approach to resolving this would be to >> focus on the inelastic traffic and require that all DetNet traffic MUST be >> congestion controlled. I'm not advocating this, and neither is Michael. There is certainly no issues with adding a statement that the use of DetNet doesn't change the internet architecture or the need to ensure that congestion control is appropriately and https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8084#section-5.3 applies.  I'll note that rfc8084 doesn't place any requirements on general IP traffic that use https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8084#section-3.2.2 >> >> A more subtle approach (with credit to Deb Brungard for an insightful discussion >> after RTGAREA yesterday) is to recognize that DetNet is a Controlled >> Environment, to which different rules apply than the Internet and networks in >> general. For the definition of Controlled Environment, see Section 3.6 of RFC >> 8085 (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8085#section-3.6). For now, please ignore >> the material in that section on safety, robustness and corruption, as inapplicable >> to this discussion. FWIW, that material was motivated by the incessant >> attempts to optimize out UDP checksums without serious consideration of the >> resulting packet corruption risks and the potential consequences thereof. >> Viewing DetNet as a Controlled Environment, this discussion is then primarily >> about what to require/do at the boundary between the DetNet Controlled >> Environment and other networks. I've been there, done that for other >> Controlled Environments ... and have the scars ... from the worked examples in >> RFC 7510 (MPLS/UDP) and RFC 8086's TMCE (Traffic Management Controlled >> Environment) applicability scenario for GRE/UDP. Those two RFCs may be >> helpful background reading. Again, these are users of DetNet -- DetNet really is nothing more than IntServ (for IP data plane) an MPLS-TE (for MPLS data plane) .  Keeping this in mind, what is the right 8085 or other language that applies and should be added. >> The good news here is that we are not as far from agreeing on a solution as >> might appear from the length of this discussion. Going back to a couple of >> chunks of text that Janos proposed earlier: >> >> NEW: >> This document provides the overall Architecture for Deterministic >> Networking (DetNet), which provides a capability for the delivery of >> data flows with extremely low packet loss rates and bounded end-to- >> end delivery latency within a network domain. DetNet is for networks >> that are under a single administrative control or within a closed group >> of administrative control; these include campus-wide networks and >> private WANs. DetNet is not for large groups of domains such as the >> Internet. >> >> That reads to me as a clear statement that a DetNet network is a Controlled >> Environment, so I would hope that we're in agreement on that. >> >> NEW: >> Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of possible >> failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet network to >> detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, or at >> the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, filters and >> policers can take action to discard offending packets or flows, or >> trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting down >> the offending interface. >> >> That proposed text actually contains two circuit breakers, "shutting down the >> offending DetNet flow" or "shutting down the offending interface." So far, so >> good, but what's missing is text on deployment requirements of the mechanisms >> described in that text, particularly at the edges of DetNet networks. >> >> Text that requires deployment of "filters and policers ... [that] discard offending >> [DetNet] packets and flows" at the boundaries between DetNet and non-DetNet >> networks would go a long way towards resolving this discussion. I would >> suggest expanding "offending" into text that includes all unauthorized DetNet >> traffic and all unexpected DetNet traffic. Once that's done, the "circuit breaker" >> discussion becomes more tractable, as the discarding of all DetNet traffic that >> would otherwise escape the DetNet network reduces the "circuit breaker" >> discussion to the existing DetNet material measures that need to be taken inside >> a DetNet network to protect delivery of DetNet service. Here's where I think some specific proposed language would be helpful. Thanks, Lou >> Thanks, --David >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Scharf, Michael [mailto:Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de] >>> Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 1:12 PM >>> To: Lou Berger; Black, David; 'János Farkas' >>> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org >>> Subject: RE: [Tsv-art] [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet- >>> architecture-08 >>> >>> >>> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] >>> Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive >>> information. >>> >>> >>> Inline >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Tsv-art [mailto:tsv-art-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger >>>> Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 8:45 AM >>>> To: Black, David; Scharf, Michael; 'János Farkas' >>>> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet- >>>> architecture.all@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf- >>>> detnet-architecture-08 >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> See below for in-line responses >>>> >>>> On 11/5/2018 12:21 AM, Black, David wrote: >>>>> ... >>>>>>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network >>>> robustness >>>>>>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For instance, >>>>>>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet >>>> replication could >>>>>>> severely and permanently congest a network and cause harm. >>>>> [... snip ...] >>>>>> NEW: >>>>>> Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of possible >>>>>> failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet network to >>>>>> detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, or at >>>>>> the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, filters and >>>>>> policers can take action to discard offending packets or flows, or >>>>>> trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting down >>>>>> the offending interface. >>>>>> >>>>>> [ms] That does not address my concern. As I wrote already, I believe >>>> this >>>>>> document has to discuss the applicability of circuit breakers >>>> according to RFC >>>>>> 8084. >>>>> I concur with Michael's implied concern that the "should" in the NEW >>>> text >>>>> is woefully inadequate. The provisions to prevent escaped non- >>>> elastic traffic >>>>> from causing damage elsewhere need to be mandatory particularly if >>>> DetNet >>>>> and non-DetNet networks are interconnected. The above >>>>> text on filters doesn't appear to cover escape from the DetNet >>>> network, >>>>> and needs to do so. Deployment of filters at DetNet nodes that drop >>>> all >>>>> DetNet traffic that tries to escape, and that drop all misdirected >>>> DetNet >>>>> traffic should address most of this problem. >>>>> >>>>> Once that is done, I think a discussion of circuit breakers is >>>> needed, in the >>>>> form of Detnet service mechanisms that can shut down (cease >>>> transmission >>>>> of) a flow that is being sent entirely into the bit-bucket by a >>>> downstream filter, >>>>> due to misconfiguration, failure, etc. >>>> I think we have a bit of a disconnect of what DetNet service delivers. >>>> >>>> DetNet does not itself impact any Transport protocol  (e.g., UDP, TCP) >>>> so itself does not *produce* elastic or non-elastic traffic. >>> First, the question whether DetNet *produces* elastic or non-elastic traffic >> does >>> not matter for the applicability of circuit breakers. Section 3 of RFC 8084 >> states: >>> CBs are RECOMMENDED for IETF protocols and tunnels that carry non- >>> congestion-controlled Internet flows and for traffic aggregates. >>> This includes traffic sent using a network tunnel. Designers of >>> other protocols and tunnel encapsulations also ought to consider the >>> use of these techniques as a last resort to protect traffic that >>> shares the network path being used. >>> >>> Section 3.2.1.1 of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-09 explains explicitly that >>> DetNet can carry non-congestion-controlled traffic: >>> >>> Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled, i.e., its >>> transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion >>> notification. >>> >>> So, clearly the condition of carrying non-congestion-controlled flows or traffic >>> aggregates applies to the DetNet architecture. And, as a result, the >>> RECOMMENDED in RFC 8084 is in principle applicable to DetNet. Also, note >> that >>> the RECOMMENDED in RFC 8084 is not limited to tunnels. >>> >>> As pointed out by David, the key question is whether, and how, the DetNet >>> architecture prevents that non-congestion controlled traffic escapes from a >>> controlled environment into the Internet. As also explained in RFC 8084, this >>> question in particular matters for failure scenarios. >>> >>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I insist in a discussion of this problem in draft-ietf- >> detnet- >>> architecture. And I believe that a reference to RFC 8084 is needed in draft-ietf- >>> detnet-architecture. >>> >>> Note that the wording in RFC 8084 is RECOMMENDED and not MUST, i.e., it is >>> possible that circuit breakers may not be needed for certain solutions. As an >>> example, MPLS traffic may not easily escape from a managed MPLS network. >>> >>> >>> Second, in my TSV-ART review I have explicitly mentioned the DetNet Packet >>> Replication Function (PRF). Replicating non-elastic traffic may create >> additional >>> challenges if the replicated packets can somehow escape into the Internet, >> e.g., >>> in failure cases. For instance, as far as I understand draft-ietf-detnet- >>> architecture, I assume the PRF can replicate non-congestion-controlled traffic >>> and forward it along different paths. If one of these paths escapes to the >>> Internet, to the Internet the PRF could basically be a producer of non- >> congestion >>> controlled traffic, and that traffic could cause significant harm in the Internet. >>> Also, note that in that case it may not necessarily help if the traffic carried by >>> DetNet is elastic, e.g., if DetNet carries TCP traffic. For instance, if other paths >>> used by the PRF within the DetNet domain would deliver all packets, the >>> congestion control in TCP would not never be triggered as each packet gets >>> indeed delivered over one of the paths. So, an unelastic traffic stream would >>> escale into the Internet and never back off. Unless I miss something, DetNet >>> needs counter-means to prevent this sort of issues. >>> >>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe draft-ietf-detnet-architecture needs a >> dedicated >>> discussion whether the PRF can cause harm and, if so, how to avoid such >> harm. >>>> DetNet operates at Layer 3 and basically provides detnet flows with a >>>> service equivalent to IntServ's Guaranteed Quality of Service.  As >>>> such, >>>> DetNet flows basically operate as if the network is uncongested. >>> RFC 8084 exactly addresses that case. The question is not the normal >> operation >>> of the network, but abnormal cases. >>> >>>> WRT escaped traffic, as I mentioned in today's session, I really think >>>> this is no difference between escaped DetNet traffic and traffic >>>> delivered over an uncongested network to a peer (congested or >>>> uncongested) network. >>> That comes down to how the DetNet network deals with abnormal situations >> at >>> the edges, e.g., for the problems mentioned in RFC 8084: >>> >>> o anomalous traffic that exceeds the provisioned capacity (or whose >>> traffic characteristics exceed the threshold configured for the >>> CB); >>> >>> o traffic generated by an application at a time when the provisioned >>> network capacity is being utilized for other purposes; >>> >>> o routing changes that cause additional traffic to start using the >>> path monitored by the CB; >>> >>> o misconfiguration of a service/network device where the capacity >>> available is insufficient to support the current traffic >>> aggregate; >>> >>> o misconfiguration of an admission controller or traffic policer >>> that allows more traffic than expected across the path monitored >>> by the CB. >>> >>> According to the last point, misconfiguration of filters/policies is one of the >>> challenges to look at. >>> >>>> Based on all this, I'm not sure how or why a  discussion of circuit >>>> breakers is needed. >>> RFC 8084 represents IETF community consensus. And in my reading the DetNet >>> architecture falls into the type of solutions discussed in RFC 8084. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>>> Lou >>>> >>>>> Thanks, --David >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Tsv-art [mailto:tsv-art-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Scharf, >>>> Michael >>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:44 PM >>>>>> To: 'János Farkas' >>>>>> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet- >>>> architecture.all@ietf.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet- >>>> architecture-08 >>>>>> >>>>>> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] >>>>>> Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for >>>> sensitive >>>>>> information. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Janos, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for the reply. My comments are inline [ms]. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have omitted all proposed changes that work for me. >>>>>> >>>>>> Michael >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: János Farkas >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 10:56 AM >>>>>> To: Scharf, Michael >>>>>> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; >>>> DetNet WG >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet- >>>> architecture-08 >>>>>> Hi Michael, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you very much for the thorough review and good comments! >>>>>> >>>>>> Please find below in-line responses and how we plan to update the >>>> draft to >>>>>> resolve your comments. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> Janos >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 9/29/2018 12:24 AM, Michael Scharf wrote: >>>>>>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf >>>>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" >>>>>>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall framework >>>> for >>>>>>> Deterministic Networking. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues as >>>>>>> detailed below. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Michael >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Major issues: >>>>>> [...] >>>>>> >>>>>>> DetNet >>>>>>> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices >>>>>>> transporting DetNet traffic. That assumption should be explicitly >>>>>>> spelt out early in the document, e.g., in the introduction. >>>>>> Actually, some form of DetNet support is required from each node >>>> that >>>>>> transports DetNet traffic. For instance, DetNet flows have to be >>>> recognized in >>>>>> order not to spoil their QoS at the minimum. >>>>>> >>>>>> [ms] I look for an clear explanation in the architecture document of >>>> what "some >>>>>> form of DetNet support" exactly means. For instance, is standard >>>> MPLS TE >>>>>> without any DetNet support good enough for an LSR on the IP/MPLS >>>> path used >>>>>> by DetNet traffic, or not? As an example, when I read the following >>>> paragraph in >>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-mpls-01 ... >>>>>> >>>>>> Transit nodes are normal MPLS Label Switching Routers (LSRs). >>>> They >>>>>> are generally unaware of the special requirements of DetNet >>>> flows, >>>>>> although they need to provide traffic engineering services and >>>> proper >>>>>> QoS to the LSPs associated with DetNet flows to enhance the >>>> prospect >>>>>> of the LSPs meeting the DetNet service requirements. Some >>>>>> implementations of transit nodes may be DetNet aware, but such >>>> nodes >>>>>> just support the DetNet transport layer. >>>>>> >>>>>> ... I could maybe assume that actually there can be "transit nodes" >>>> that do not >>>>>> require *any* sort of DetNet support or DetNet awareness. Is that >>>> correct? I >>>>>> think the architecture document has to be clear on such fundamental >>>> questions. >>>>>> The Introduction could be extended to clarify, e.g., the third >>>> paragraph: >>>>>> OLD: >>>>>> A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. That is, >>>> the presence of >>>>>> DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the benefits >>>> offered >>>>>> DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, prevent existing >>>> QoS >>>>>> mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, subject to the >>>> bandwidth >>>>>> required for the DetNet flows. A single source-destination pair can >>>> trade both >>>>>> DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End systems and applications need not >>>>>> instantiate special interfaces for DetNet flows. Networks are not >>>> restricted to >>>>>> certain topologies; connectivity is not restricted. Any application >>>> that generates >>>>>> a data flow that can be usefully characterized as having a maximum >>>> bandwidth >>>>>> should be able to take advantage of DetNet, as long as the necessary >>>> resources >>>>>> can be reserved. Reservations can be made by the application itself, >>>> via network >>>>>> management, by an application’s controller, or by other means, e.g., >>>> a dynamic >>>>>> control plane (e.g., [RFC2205]). >>>>>> >>>>>> NEW: >>>>>> A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. That is, >>>> the presence of >>>>>> DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the benefits >>>> offered >>>>>> DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, prevent existing >>>> QoS >>>>>> mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, subject to the >>>> bandwidth >>>>>> required for the DetNet flows. A single source-destination pair can >>>> trade both >>>>>> DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End systems and applications need not >>>>>> instantiate special interfaces for DetNet flows. Networks are not >>>> restricted to >>>>>> certain topologies; connectivity is not restricted. Any application >>>> that generates >>>>>> a data flow that can be usefully characterized as having a maximum >>>> bandwidth >>>>>> should be able to take advantage of DetNet, as long as the necessary >>>> resources >>>>>> can be reserved. Reservations can be made by the application itself, >>>> via network >>>>>> management, by an application’s controller, or by other means, e.g., >>>> a dynamic >>>>>> control plane (e.g., [RFC2205]). Network nodes supporting DetNet >>>> flows have to >>>>>> implement some of the DetNet capabilities (not necessarily all) in >>>> order to treat >>>>>> DetNet flows such that their QoS requirements are met. >>>>>> >>>>>> [ms] To me, the last sentence is not clear. Does "some of the DetNet >>>> capabilities >>>>>> (not necessarily all)" include e.g. vanilla traffic engineering? For >>>> instance, if a >>>>>> network node can ensure that the QoS requirements are met by >>>> leveraging >>>>>> existing standardized TE without any additional DetNet awareness, is >>>> this >>>>>> enough for deploying DetNet? Or does this node have to implement >>>> additional >>>>>> DetNet-specific functionality? Specifically, please explain if an >>>> existing DetNet- >>>>>> unaware router on the path taken by DetNet traffic can be used to >>>> forward >>>>>> DetNet traffic, or if it is mandatory that any router forwarding >>>> DetNet traffic >>>>>> indeed implements new capabilities specific to DetNet. In the latter >>>> case, I think >>>>>> the document would need to discuss incremental deployment strategies >>>> as well. >>>>>>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network >>>> robustness >>>>>>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For instance, >>>>>>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet >>>> replication could >>>>>>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How does >>>> the DetNet >>>>>>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. if >>>> the topology >>>>>>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be >>>> solved by >>>>>>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are >>>> corresponding >>>>>>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that filters >>>> and policers >>>>>>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still assumes >>>> consistently >>>>>>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And Section >>>> 3.3.2 is >>>>>>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" >>>> without stating >>>>>>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further >>>> solutions, such as >>>>>>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not discussed? >>>>>> Security issues and considerations are addressed by the DetNet >>>> Security >>>>>> draft: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-security. >>>>>> Reference to the  DetNet Security draft will be added. >>>>>> >>>>>> There will be a document dedicated to Operations, Administration and >>>>>> Maintenance (OAM), which will address operational, misconfiguration, >>>> and >>>>>> failure detection issues. >>>>>> >>>>>> The topology changes have to be solved by the control plane, either >>>>>> centralized or distributed. >>>>>> >>>>>> The filters and policers described in Section 3.3.2 also provide >>>>>> robustness by eliminating/mitigating traffic coming from >>>> malfunctioning >>>>>> devices. >>>>>> >>>>>> RFC2475 is recommended for traffic policing functions to increase >>>>>> robustness. >>>>>> >>>>>> The text  in Section 3.3.2 could be made clearer, e.g., by updating >>>> the >>>>>> first paragraph to: >>>>>> >>>>>> OLD: >>>>>> One key to building robust real-time systems is to reduce the >>>>>> infinite variety of possible failures to a number that can be >>>>>> analyzed with reasonable confidence. DetNet aids in the process by >>>>>> allowing for filters and policers to detect DetNet packets received >>>>>> on the wrong interface, or at the wrong time, or in too great a >>>>>> volume, and to then take actions such as discarding the offending >>>>>> packet, shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting down >>>> the >>>>>> offending interface. >>>>>> >>>>>> NEW: >>>>>> Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of possible >>>>>> failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet network to >>>>>> detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, or at >>>>>> the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, filters and >>>>>> policers can take action to discard offending packets or flows, or >>>>>> trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting down >>>>>> the offending interface. >>>>>> >>>>>> [ms] That does not address my concern. As I wrote already, I believe >>>> this >>>>>> document has to discuss the applicability of circuit breakers >>>> according to RFC >>>>>> 8084. >>>>>> >>>>>>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of failures >>>> to the QoS of >>>>>>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to protect non- >>>> DetNet parts >>>>>>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. Solutions >>>> to this >>>>>>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic (e.g., >>>> in case of >>>>>>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not discussed at >>>> all in the document? >>>>>> Actually the regulation of DetNet traffic by polices and filters >>>>>> protects both other DetNet traffic and non-DetNet traffic. >>>>>> >>>>>> Section 3.3.1 could be extended to make it clear, e.g., by extending >>>> the >>>>>> last paragraph: >>>>>> >>>>>> OLD: >>>>>> Ideally, the net effect of the presence of DetNet flows in a network >>>>>> on the non-DetNet packets is primarily a reduction in the available >>>>>> bandwidth. >>>>>> >>>>>> NEW: >>>>>> Traffic policing functions (e.g. [RFC2475]) are used to avoid the >>>>>> starvation of non-DetNet traffic. Thus, the net effect of the >>>> presence >>>>>> of DetNet flows in a network on non-DetNet flows is primarily a >>>>>> reduction in the available bandwidth. >>>>>> >>>>>> [ms] I believe a stronger wording is needed, e.g. along the lines of >>>> "a DetNet >>>>>> deployment must avoid starvation of non-DetNet traffic ...". >>>>>> >>>>>> [...] >>>>>> >>>>>>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational RFC on >>>> IRTF stream, >>>>>>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., >>>> "planes"). This is >>>>>>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should probably >>>> refer to >>>>>>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC 7491, >>>> albeit there is >>>>>>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, Section >>>> 4.4 is by and >>>>>>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not specific to >>>> DetNet. >>>>>>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the concepts >>>> introduced in >>>>>>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology or >>>> discuss >>>>>>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly at >>>> the end that >>>>>>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet >>>> architecture. It is not >>>>>>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 could >>>> be removed >>>>>>> from the document without impacting the rest of the document. >>>>>> The document should point out to traffic engineering and centralized >>>>>> control plane aspects, so it is better to keep Section 4.4. >>>>>> >>>>>> RFC 7426 provides the full picture of SDN architecture, which needs >>>> to >>>>>> be referred from the DetNet architecture. No other RFC provides such >>>>>> detailed picture. Therefore, we need to keep the reference to RFC >>>> 7426, >>>>>> which is an informative reference. >>>>>> >>>>>> [ms] I'll leave that up to the IESG to decide whether an IETF >>>> proposed standard >>>>>> should build an architecture based on research work instead of, say, >>>> documents >>>>>> with IETF consensus. As a side note, I believe the understanding in >>>> industry what >>>>>> "SDN architecture" really means and how it is implemented may have >>>> evolved >>>>>> since publication of IRTF RFC 7426, which was published in Jan. >>>> 2015. For >>>>>> instance, IRTF RFC 7426 does not discuss the implications of segment >>>> routing, >>>>>> BGP-LS, and other recent IETF techniques. And, based on what I read >>>> in the >>>>>> DetNet architecture, I believe DetNet could actually be implemented >>>> without >>>>>> any "SDN architecture", e.g. by distributed traffic engineering. As >>>> a result, I don't >>>>>> even understand the need to discuss "SDN". >>>>>> >>>>>> [ms] For the record: As TSV-ART reviewer, I question whether IRTF >>>> RFC 7426 is >>>>>> indeed an appropriate reference, I have doubts that IRTF RFC 7426 is >>>> really up- >>>>>> to-date, and I am concerned about the content quality of section >>>> 4.4, e.g., >>>>>> regarding the lack of alignment with the rest of the document. The >>>> IESG will >>>>>> certainly have a better understanding that than me how to deal with >>>> such topics. >>>>>> The related work in TEAS is already referred to. >>>>>> >>>>>> [...] >>>>>> >>>>>>> Minor issues: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in the IETF, >>>> e.g. >>>>>>> originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. "transport >>>> network" is >>>>>>> used in the IETF for different technologies in different areas, I >>>> think the >>>>>>> term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer to >>>> transport >>>>>>> protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find the term >>>> "DetNet >>>>>>> transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion is easy to >>>> see e.g. >>>>>>> in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as per RFC >>>> 1122) sits >>>>>>> on top of "transport". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Based on the document it also may be solution/implementation >>>> specific >>>>>> whether >>>>>>> the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate protocol layer >>>> compared >>>>>>> to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me why the >>>> word >>>>>>> "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination "transport >>>> layer". >>>>>>> To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport protocol") >>>> should be >>>>>>> used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with RFC 1122. >>>> But this is >>>>>>> probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. >>>>>> "transport" is used here as in "packet transport networks" not as >>>> OSI L4 >>>>>> transport. >>>>>> >>>>>> [ms] At the risk of stating the obvious: The relevant section of RFC >>>> 1122 defining >>>>>> "transport layer" is entitled by "The Internet Architecture". And, >>>> according e.g. >>>>>> to RFC 5921, "packet transport network" is a term defined by ITU-T. >>>> In an IETF >>>>>> document, I believe IETF terminology should be used. >>>>>> >>>>>> I suggest to use the terms "DetNet transport sub-layer" and "DetNet >>>>>> service sub-layer" throughout the document, which would hopefully >>>> avoid >>>>>> confusion. >>>>>> >>>>>> [ms] "DetNet transport sub-layer" somewhat solves my concern of >>>> avoiding the >>>>>> expression "transport layer". To really avoid confusion, I believe >>>> it would be >>>>>> better to avoid the ambiguous term "transport" altogether. But I >>>> will be fine if >>>>>> all DetNet documents consistently avoid the term "transport layer". >>>>>> >>>>>> Michael >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Tsv-art mailing list >>>>>> Tsv-art@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> detnet mailing list >>>>> detnet@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Tsv-art mailing list >>>> Tsv-art@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art From nobody Thu Nov 8 22:38:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D6A4130E36; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 22:38:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 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To: "Black, David" , Lou Berger , =?utf-8?B?J0rDoW5vcyBGYXJrYXMn?= CC: "tsv-art@ietf.org" , DetNet WG , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Tsv-art] [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 Thread-Index: AQHUZfdHeIU2S3L1QUWzRDtJ6Iup9aUrnUaAgBRLmACABahlAIAAqBeQgAC0jwCAAC/0YA== Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 06:38:30 +0000 Message-ID: <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D152997@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> References: <0bb7176c-c386-b863-a4f8-06254f4627ab@ericsson.com> <1705d15c-c7ba-c76f-88db-c75f1a88db0f@ericsson.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D143BE1@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D15213B@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [134.108.29.249] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 06:38:38 -0000 SW5saW5lDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogQmxhY2ssIERh dmlkIFttYWlsdG86RGF2aWQuQmxhY2tAZGVsbC5jb21dDQo+IFNlbnQ6IEZyaWRheSwgTm92ZW1i ZXIgOSwgMjAxOCA1OjMzIEFNDQo+IFRvOiBTY2hhcmYsIE1pY2hhZWw7IExvdSBCZXJnZXI7ICdK w6Fub3MgRmFya2FzJw0KPiBDYzogdHN2LWFydEBpZXRmLm9yZzsgRGV0TmV0IFdHOyBkcmFmdC1p ZXRmLWRldG5ldC0NCj4gYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLmFsbEBpZXRmLm9yZzsgQmxhY2ssIERhdmlkDQo+ IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJFOiBbVHN2LWFydF0gW0RldG5ldF0gVHN2YXJ0IGxhc3QgY2FsbCByZXZpZXcg b2YgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi0NCj4gZGV0bmV0LWFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS0wOA0KPiANCj4gU28sIEknbSBn b2luZyB0byBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIE1pY2hhZWwgb24gdGhlIHByb2JsZW0sIGJ1dCBzdWdnZXN0IGEN 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Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFEF7130DD0 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 23:01:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Cucf5u-FR8U4 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 23:01:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy3-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy3-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.30.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 807661292AD for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 23:01:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw12.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.12]) by gproxy3.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2EED41772 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2018 23:56:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id L0iCgljDdE0jML0iCg85K9; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 23:56:12 -0700 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=yfRNXHiJVQJE7fs7kJETmyOZkIIxd5fpbeErluKZzA0=; b=V1qov48oJlvRQ76WVvoqpO1V5G BskZs1GREXzxT5So7yNcHcfPLxV1ANli8K1z7+y3QsdjRi7errVgSx2qqr6r/PghTAhf/9jpwB3Ah Cjiv9caRUJj83ViA6osmpXkCG; Received: from pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.106.211]:44044 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gL0iC-003U7C-Ah; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 23:56:12 -0700 To: "Scharf, Michael" , "Black, David" , =?UTF-8?B?J0rDoW5vcyBGYXJrYXMn?= Cc: "tsv-art@ietf.org" , DetNet WG , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" References: <0bb7176c-c386-b863-a4f8-06254f4627ab@ericsson.com> <1705d15c-c7ba-c76f-88db-c75f1a88db0f@ericsson.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D143BE1@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D15213B@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D152997@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <80619223-bde0-a6ae-63c1-cdf62a321ff4@labn.net> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 13:56:06 +0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D152997@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.106.211 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gL0iC-003U7C-Ah X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.106.211]:44044 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 14 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Org: HG=bhcustomer;ORG=bluehost; X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 07:01:28 -0000 Hi Michael, First off let me thank you for all your work on this document and apologize for not yet responding to you previous message -- I'll get there. On 11/9/2018 1:38 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote: > As already mentioned, it is possible that some solutions don't need any "circuit breaker" as they achieve sufficient robustness by some other means. I only ask for text that explains how to avoid harm from non-DetNet networks, not for a specific solution. Can you suggest some specific text to address your concern? Thanks, Lou From nobody Fri Nov 9 00:39:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F8B128DFD for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 00:39:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dolby.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fFv3B_17BcEx for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 00:39:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM03-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-co1nam03on0096.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.40.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12B44127332 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 00:39:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dolby.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=7IT6kOaCEVWSLcN5Y8Z8saEBjYvotTAEV5uznjpsMjE=; b=MlKfyzNxqIDQ3L2cMhV4c7j50HcG9Hmu99sauCSAXmmfD76G2S1MuVZsMOR1LihDavIFb0wbC65piAKlA2ty1ciRtXIwnnGmKa7J27ac8N2RiMeaabVWOXAG7r98PpLnT07+LfogbLdl/nj2B6+0IwIOJGdyaumTkVjx+7050K8= Received: from BL0PR06MB4548.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (20.177.145.145) by BL0PR06MB4466.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (20.177.145.83) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1294.21; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 08:39:07 +0000 Received: from BL0PR06MB4548.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a1e4:ef9a:133f:b991]) by BL0PR06MB4548.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a1e4:ef9a:133f:b991%3]) with mapi id 15.20.1294.034; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 08:39:07 +0000 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: DetNet WG Meeting Notes Updated Thread-Index: AdR4B5WefC5FljffS9ezjbhTiNMS4g== Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 08:39:06 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-dg-ref: PG1ldGE+PGF0IG5tPSJib2R5Lmh0bWwiIHA9ImM6XHVzZXJzXGVhZ3Jvc1xhcHBkYXRhXHJvYW1pbmdcMDlkODQ5YjYtMzJkMy00YTQwLTg1ZWUtNmI4NGJhMjllMzViXG1zZ3NcbXNnLWU4ZjczZTE0LWUzZmEtMTFlOC1iZDJhLWFjYmMzMjdhNTFjNlxhbWUtdGVzdFxlOGY3M2UxNi1lM2ZhLTExZTgtYmQyYS1hY2JjMzI3YTUxYzZib2R5Lmh0bWwiIHN6PSIxODI3IiB0PSIxMzE4NjIyNjM0MzQ4NDY2NjYiIGg9Imc0Mk1wTyttQ3R2QlRSK3lOQjV3aXh6SkpUYz0iIGlkPSIiIGJsPSIwIiBibz0iMSIvPjwvbWV0YT4= authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=eagros@dolby.com; x-originating-ip: [31.133.148.130] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BL0PR06MB4466; 6:bmR9bKveIdrbUJ0m6VA44z23kEsT7hV3Ec8FadJ3AUBfZnFPskXHya/A3bwqCTpAP94KYTq2OmLNkzX78fJNtkkwlVxad3QdBYxA2VUI/7qgpF7/Rp0YBkqhNOZBWUa5LS6Yp0PoYViog585p5utRSRG/pih3vYBBRkqVcngyrEjPywb6+ggogVwGJIraFZyhAToxtpk0GIFnTYDUKIW6jGajjiNzmU2MTY90O9t/BjmKsGs+3/UnPRTw303gmF+aCoLdHlqe6GWcQWXdsULd5Dd8acOvhf/lLkobRr5fjnTTTLVKrr+Ic/NNrf3AIesAQHOfeZvrblgLBxctgontMJoefoyRUqW2f6v6DxrAPOdHxb9Dw9ELgJwCCTIeDUzY/yKLzoIBbsUn/5Id4/yXUF7meKk0OssTXhW2daiHfWrse5cGdGK9bKzHMiTMw6PljLIvspj+nsPQJ/rSN+Kww==; 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boundary="_000_BL0PR06MB4548571AF4E1DE23ECB6B8B0C4C60BL0PR06MB4548namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: dolby.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: cfa9c0d0-42d6-4b0c-3b17-08d6461ecffa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Nov 2018 08:39:07.0812 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 05408d25-cd0d-40c8-8962-5462de64a318 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR06MB4466 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] DetNet WG Meeting Notes Updated X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 08:39:12 -0000 --_000_BL0PR06MB4548571AF4E1DE23ECB6B8B0C4C60BL0PR06MB4548namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, I completed my edit of the WG meeting notes on Etherpad. If anyone has any = corrections please go ahead and correct it. Ethan (as DetNet WG Secretary). --_000_BL0PR06MB4548571AF4E1DE23ECB6B8B0C4C60BL0PR06MB4548namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi All,

I completed my edit of the WG meeting notes on Ether= pad. If anyone has any corrections please go ahead and correct it.

Ethan (as DetNet WG Secretary).

--_000_BL0PR06MB4548571AF4E1DE23ECB6B8B0C4C60BL0PR06MB4548namp_-- From nobody Sat Nov 10 03:05:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69150130E11 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 03:04:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.77 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.77 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.47, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pSIe-0Oj2c8J for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 03:04:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEA87130DC2 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 03:04:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=ericsson.com; s=mailgw201801; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@ericsson.com; t=1541847894; x=1544439894; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=hS3purkCnXbPv+8oVoNS43cf1l+hv0KLNJMFpwmgHfw=; b=BwIQtMEbI3KPTSSM4mrpd3Fq1xc4JkHEUn3/fIsEUIkCXwyfnSqplREJjkdX4qcr FD30KLcKqepcFrImBAxkkxXJ3g1Y/rrLkHNbC/MmCvqJ80K+zdBwzAbruBxy/BzP 1s0PDtKi8IwUgqAT/3fn2yS92D5kCuqEpPmu+TKVzq8=; X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-477ff70000002747-52-5be6bb56005b Received: from ESESSMB502.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.120]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 3D.BA.10055.65BB6EB5; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 12:04:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB501.ericsson.se (153.88.183.162) by ESESSMB502.ericsson.se (153.88.183.163) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 12:04:52 +0100 Received: from [100.94.129.104] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.189) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 15.1.1466.3 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 12:04:51 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= To: DetNet WG , "STDS-802-1-L@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG" Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 12:04:50 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrCLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7hW7Y7mfRBg+W61j8/jSbxWL1LW8H Jo8lS34yebR8O8UcwBTFZZOSmpNZllqkb5fAlfHz4SnmgiNsFef/PWdvYNzL2sXIySEhYCKx /GMLI4gtJHCEUWLPWasuRi4g+xujxI35vWwQzlFGiXOzd4JVsQnYS9y9tIEZxBYW0JaY0vGX BcQWEUiRePBrPlicF6jm+KMZ7CA2i4CqxK93S9hAbFGBWIlPVxZD1QhKnJz5BKyXWcBCYub8 84wQtrzE9rdzmCFscYlbT+YzQVynJvHp7UP2CYz8s5C0z0LSPgtJ+ywk7QsYWVYxihanFhfn phsZ6aUWZSYXF+fn6eWllmxiBIblwS2/rXYwHnzueIhRgINRiYf3/5pn0UKsiWXFlbmHGCU4 mJVEeGW3PI0W4k1JrKxKLcqPLyrNSS0+xCjNwaIkzuuUZhElJJCeWJKanZpakFoEk2Xi4JRq YMwXbHBwsilzC237/t/rxnUBebbqXMZeH/sd5Rtvrfq3cH3Jli+7z3s3rpzleO5gFZNTf0BK W04sv1XIoklSkpmLN//KaXI4lbb3jdFRvWsWma4FTQ46f1In1O+I2Zw/e8rcHFNGiTm3p2af ta6PichTdlnC/vPpmi/8FpKMOoyb3L0jJizZqsRSnJFoqMVcVJwIAChHZE1HAgAA Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] DetNet - TSN workshop tomorrow 8am X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 11:04:59 -0000 Hi, The DetNet - TSN workshop starts 8:00am tomorrow in the Chitlada #2 meeting room on the 2nd floor: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/floor-plan#2nd-floor. Workshop online agenda and slides: Live: http://ieee802.org/1/tsn/tsn-task-group-agenda/#Sunday_DetNet_8211_TSN_joint_session Archive: https://1.ieee802.org/november-2018-plenary-meeting-in-bangkok-thailand-tsn-tg-agenda We register meeting attendance electronically via https://imat.ieee.org. If you do not have IEEE account then please create one; it just requires basic data. After logging into IMAT, please select 802 Plenary Session - Nov 2018, then C/LM/WG802.1 Attendance, then Sunday. You MUST be on the IEEE 802 WiFi to be able to register your attendance, which is only possible during the meeting. Best regards, Janos From nobody Sat Nov 10 06:11:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FAF2130DD8 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 06:11:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UaFCEMdJ3-PQ for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 06:11:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22a.google.com (mail-lj1-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91631124C04 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 06:11:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id u6-v6so3963178ljd.1 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 06:11:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7xwXxVd79gXzRJssaxSvfaGbLUHnHl0UFnX1vS7Kzw0=; b=aptWbiXloidp3hAbCxieN3+fD19RDK+GW82IUbf7QrTujvkmFPfXd4jkm15lQR111J 0trP8i1b9bGIWOqO/tr8+es/Cz6fvsTjmlweJnKg9sxRqSpAW6It93PKtCjxGpTS2iYH 4MzCQ1KeeXLIOIU/Kv2oaSaU53qwsZOdp8tyEWIo8fSmcwL4ih12NIeW7fd/xENgTlUH 70KgUDh5sqyvLPFBijLF8F/ZGGf7ODsW41W76z6vQDlWqibspOGtAMAsLx8Lwyvs97mk MBTwZWio3KhEzTxMO+yUyPIZHPWz5dGNMMbkmu0g6cR7fDv5m4WA/l/hASxWx6iSkJLj /Ucg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7xwXxVd79gXzRJssaxSvfaGbLUHnHl0UFnX1vS7Kzw0=; b=fxCox1Vlg2b4HEj0UecMvokzvc8LFiPUAw8UP9TQcwaBKZ9/vD91pIS9VIinZL8E0Z IgLIi3KbJVgtmUqKmI+sQgOlYFtJRl52/KrtXWTdBmsUrG+dZl6azxYHXHVI8YtsbCnB YBbYTpvo4HEtaqFa7akFgZw0hWgJAqZlE6b54LgujSO93y3xZmMuBk25w4p5chc1Y8+R exjGTAcDSvrth0GJqt4sISiWMo7F7w9c0lwoE8UTXdd23WzopZJO1i8kM71vKzCIwwfw Zk0zfr5Sloi740ABjtXyg1JT6mLEJ7h3XCcGwz6eEBosTI3fokRa0dogp8yPL/bQ04Ny MpgQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gJa96i9K1b5/R21MCv/41uXT5I3Pxv8/0uUi6E3bPaFKBotiNuA CXfSJVPjMNFFuy0DvoaC5VvhJuMJaZiTNhSjhUA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5dUsMB7GAjeEBB0EdpjscP9UBlzEC8RzlSphKmUX7fz+fZtMZirpcuGC0YfLo6rchYJg6Wat+en6UJHkyxdqjc= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:5109:: with SMTP id f9-v6mr8527383ljb.52.1541859084627; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 06:11:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 21:11:07 +0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?J=C3=A1nos_Farkas?= Cc: DetNet WG , "STDS-802-1-L@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000872c8057a500b86" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet - TSN workshop tomorrow 8am X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 14:11:29 -0000 --0000000000000872c8057a500b86 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Janis, thank you for the detailed reminder. Quick question Do we start the discussion at 8:00 am or at 9:00 am. The registration, I believe, mentioned the latter. Thank you for the clarification. Regards, Greg On Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 18:05 J=C3=A1nos Farkas Hi, > > The DetNet - TSN workshop starts 8:00am tomorrow in the Chitlada #2 > meeting room on the 2nd floor: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/floor-plan#2nd-floor. > > Workshop online agenda and slides: > Live: > > http://ieee802.org/1/tsn/tsn-task-group-agenda/#Sunday_DetNet_8211_TSN_jo= int_session > > Archive: > > https://1.ieee802.org/november-2018-plenary-meeting-in-bangkok-thailand-t= sn-tg-agenda > > > We register meeting attendance electronically via https://imat.ieee.org. > If you do not have IEEE account then please create one; it just requires > basic data. > After logging into IMAT, please select 802 Plenary Session - Nov 2018, > then C/LM/WG802.1 Attendance, then Sunday. > You MUST be on the IEEE 802 WiFi to be able to register your attendance, > which is only possible during the meeting. > > Best regards, > Janos > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --0000000000000872c8057a500b86 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Janis,
thank you for the detailed rem= inder. Quick question Do we start the discussion at 8:00 am or at 9:00 am. = The registration, I believe, mentioned the latter.
T= hank you for the clarification.=C2=A0

Regards,=C2=A0
Greg=C2=A0
<= br>
On Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 18:05 = J=C3=A1nos Farkas <janos.fa= rkas@ericsson.com wrote:
Hi,
The DetNet - TSN workshop starts 8:00am tomorrow in the Chitlada #2
meeting room on the 2nd floor:
https://datatracker.ietf.org= /meeting/103/floor-plan#2nd-floor.

Workshop online agenda and slides:
Live:
http:= //ieee802.org/1/tsn/tsn-task-group-agenda/#Sunday_DetNet_8211_TSN_joint_ses= sion

Archive:
http= s://1.ieee802.org/november-2018-plenary-meeting-in-bangkok-thailand-tsn-tg-= agenda


We register meeting attendance electronically via https://imat.ieee.= org.
If you do not have IEEE account then please create one; it just requires basic data.
After logging into IMAT, please select 802 Plenary Session - Nov 2018,
then C/LM/WG802.1 Attendance, then Sunday.
You MUST be on the IEEE 802 WiFi to be able to register your attendance, which is only possible during the meeting.

Best regards,
Janos

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
det= net@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet<= /a>
--0000000000000872c8057a500b86-- From nobody Sat Nov 10 06:23:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2952012777C for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 06:23:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.769 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.769 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.47, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GhumFtYvc3yT for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 06:23:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BACAE124C04 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 06:22:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=ericsson.com; s=mailgw201801; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@ericsson.com; t=1541859777; x=1544451777; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:CC:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ibd82P/vPi7+3eKmoGDGDuJqkwwkgDVYy3AtYK4dGBo=; b=G52CxDpWXahXTH3SG2Zp6KQQWDAg8vJtrI4MfLceIeGnPeLPV9r3lYCYVnwgjc4A t1DL4ULGQwHeV2DN0cJJsECHIfMuE4gwq40VFd6/SmW3+MbEaFFo9MzSInY44iOE OmebKDKmxTPuA/0DGtE1hGLG5WyogigbqtaAqcmxF08=; X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-8d8849e000002747-d3-5be6e9c17032 Received: from ESESBMB504.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.117]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 77.6A.10055.1C9E6EB5; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 15:22:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESBMR502.ericsson.se (153.88.183.134) by ESESBMB504.ericsson.se (153.88.183.187) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 15:22:57 +0100 Received: from ESESSMB501.ericsson.se (153.88.183.162) by ESESBMR502.ericsson.se (153.88.183.134) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 15:22:57 +0100 Received: from [100.94.129.104] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.189) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 15.1.1466.3 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 15:22:55 +0100 To: Greg Mirsky CC: DetNet WG , "STDS-802-1-L@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG" References: From: =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 15:22:55 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------347398F59CE8BD0C00967664" Content-Language: en-US X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFupkkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGbG9VPfgy2fRBm87LS1+f5rNYvFt2lNW i9W3vB2YPXbOusvusWTJTyaPlm+nmAOYo7hsUlJzMstSi/TtErgyNnc2shW8Mq9oOr2fuYFx h1YXIyeHhICJxOuTr5i7GLk4hASOMEo0fXrDCOF8Y5Q4uWYxK5wz/cIUqMxRRok3hx6xgfQL C1hIbLj0jR3EFhFQl+jcdhzMZhZIkXj++ilUdxujxN3u34wgCTYBe4m7lzYwg9i8QPayX8tZ QWwWAVWJ24t/gw0VFYiV+HRlMVSNoMTJmU9YQGxOgUCJx6cvsEEsCJP41LkMyhaXuPVkPhOI LSSgJvG+4Q7jBEahWUjaZyFpmYWkBcK2kJg5/zwjhC0v0bx1NjOErSHROmcuO7L4Akb2VYyi xanFxbnpRkZ6qUWZycXF+Xl6eaklmxiBEXRwy2+rHYwHnzseYhTgYFTi4V36/Fm0EGtiWXFl 7iFGCQ5mJRFe2S1Po4V4UxIrq1KL8uOLSnNSiw8xSnOwKInzOqVZRAkJpCeWpGanphakFsFk mTg4pRoYo1OLhJw+rlrNdCTnm8DyNq8PtvEs5zx1z30uDJXc9ZBb9T5fy53rzuYCp/RFz5pF KxwJv27Zb1Lcd/XRhbNvAnyLHvpq3Vvv2PujcDqb2arZrptufXfqbTSJ/n06J/tawd7Nj5dV H+bvvcLNPX35HY8G1e1Hr3zYvlei9mXP5MuTYw46z710XImlOCPRUIu5qDgRAB86AqucAgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet - TSN workshop tomorrow 8am X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 14:23:02 -0000 --------------347398F59CE8BD0C00967664 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Technical discussion starts at 8:00 with an introductory presentation by the chairs. This is indicated on the agenda page: https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/tsn-task-group-agenda/#Sunday_DetNet_8211_TSN_joint_session. The original intention was a later start; but we've got a busy agenda. The registration web page mentioned a later start, but the email about the registration page indicated start at 8am. We will try to keep the agenda and finish around 5pm. However, the purpose of the whole workshop is discussion. That's why we've got together. I personally would not mind a little overrun for fruitful discussion. Regards, Janos On 11/10/2018 3:11 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Janis, > thank you for the detailed reminder. Quick question Do we start the > discussion at 8:00 am or at 9:00 am. The registration, I believe, > mentioned the latter. > Thank you for the clarification. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 18:05 János Farkas wrote: > > Hi, > > The DetNet - TSN workshop starts 8:00am tomorrow in the Chitlada #2 > meeting room on the 2nd floor: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/floor-plan#2nd-floor. > > Workshop online agenda and slides: > Live: > http://ieee802.org/1/tsn/tsn-task-group-agenda/#Sunday_DetNet_8211_TSN_joint_session > > > Archive: > https://1.ieee802.org/november-2018-plenary-meeting-in-bangkok-thailand-tsn-tg-agenda > > > > We register meeting attendance electronically via > https://imat.ieee.org. > If you do not have IEEE account then please create one; it just > requires > basic data. > After logging into IMAT, please select 802 Plenary Session - Nov > 2018, > then C/LM/WG802.1 Attendance, then Sunday. > You MUST be on the IEEE 802 WiFi to be able to register your > attendance, > which is only possible during the meeting. > > Best regards, > Janos > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --------------347398F59CE8BD0C00967664 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Technical discussion starts at 8:00 with an introductory presentation by the chairs.
This is indicated on the agenda page: https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/tsn-task-group-agenda/#Sunday_DetNet_8211_TSN_joint_session.

The original intention was a later start; but we've got a busy agenda. The registration web page mentioned a later start, but the email about the registration page indicated start at 8am.

We will try to keep the agenda and finish around 5pm. However, the purpose of the whole workshop is discussion. That's why we've got together. I personally would not mind a little overrun for fruitful discussion.

Regards,
Janos


On 11/10/2018 3:11 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
Hi Janis,
thank you for the detailed reminder. Quick question Do we start the discussion at 8:00 am or at 9:00 am. The registration, I believe, mentioned the latter.
Thank you for the clarification. 

Regards, 
Greg 

On Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 18:05 János Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com wrote:
Hi,

The DetNet - TSN workshop starts 8:00am tomorrow in the Chitlada #2
meeting room on the 2nd floor:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/floor-plan#2nd-floor.

Workshop online agenda and slides:
Live:
http://ieee802.org/1/tsn/tsn-task-group-agenda/#Sunday_DetNet_8211_TSN_joint_session

Archive:
https://1.ieee802.org/november-2018-plenary-meeting-in-bangkok-thailand-tsn-tg-agenda


We register meeting attendance electronically via https://imat.ieee.org.
If you do not have IEEE account then please create one; it just requires
basic data.
After logging into IMAT, please select 802 Plenary Session - Nov 2018,
then C/LM/WG802.1 Attendance, then Sunday.
You MUST be on the IEEE 802 WiFi to be able to register your attendance,
which is only possible during the meeting.

Best regards,
Janos

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

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X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B79F7130DF1 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 20:58:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.59 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.59 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FJLkmDq7YZmp for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 20:58:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F08C6130E23 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 20:58:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from 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ESMTP id sHpx70L7vhij; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 01:59:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from dggwg11-dlp.huawei.com (lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com [185.176.76.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42B3212F295; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 01:59:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrpml402-hub.exmail.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.66]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id CA8FB19CEF8E87528B8B; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 09:59:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHRPML504-MBX.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.5.41]) by lhrpml402-hub.exmail.huawei.com ([10.201.4.206]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 09:59:01 +0000 From: Norman Finn To: "detnet@ietf.org" CC: "draft-ietf-detnet-security.authors@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Security draft should consider IEEE 802.1Qci Thread-Index: AdR5o068YIoWUqPlRYyFmzleZwV2/g== Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 09:59:00 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F80171DCF7@lhrpml504-mbx.exmail.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.7.94] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F80171DCF7lhrpml504mbxexm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Security draft should consider IEEE 802.1Qci X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 09:59:11 -0000 --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F80171DCF7lhrpml504mbxexm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the drivers for writing IEEE Std 802.1Qci (an amendment to IEEE 802.= 1Q-2014, and now now incorporated into IEEE 802.1Q-2018) is protection of a= TSN network from misbehaving stations or bridges, and/or deliberate attack= s. The facilities include: -- Restricting a flow to entering a a bridge on certain ports. -- Restricting a flow to a maximum frame size. -- Running a rotating schedule, synchronized with other devices in the ne= twork, that defines at what windows during a cycle that a flow can and cann= ot enter on certain ports. -- Attaching a "maximum wire-time bits per cycle" limitation for a flow o= n input. -- Attaching a typical burst/rate red/yellow/green (only red and green) r= ate limiting meter to a flow -- Restricting and/or remapping the QoS provided a packet depending on in= put port, input time gate, and flow ID. You cannot see the details of what cannot and cannot be specified simply fr= om the above list -- there is a processing flow defined, so that one can ma= p control parameter settings (defined in the documents) to results on the w= ire, so one must read the documents to understand the feature fully. In addition, some of the queuing methods described in IEEE Std 802.1Q and I= EEE P802.1Qcr provide some protection against attacks/misbehaviors, for exa= mple, by ensuring that excess traffic in one flow can affect only that one = flow's latency and loss guarantees, and not any other flows' guarantees. >From the above description, it's obvious that there there are completed and= in-process 802 standards that can be of some help in prevention or mitigat= ion of some attacks. Such items are probably worth mentioning in the secur= ity draft. I hope, but cannot promise, to help with text. -- Norm --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F80171DCF7lhrpml504mbxexm_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One of the drivers for writing IEEE Std 802.1Qci (an amendment to IEEE= 802.1Q-2014, and now now incorporated into IEEE 802.1Q-2018) is protection= of a TSN network from misbehaving stations or bridges, and/or deliberate a= ttacks.

The facilities include:

  -- Restricting a flow to entering a a bridge on certain ports.<= /div>
  -- Restricting a flow to a maximum frame size.
  -- Running a rotating schedule, synchronized with other devices= in the network, that defines at what windows during a cycle that a flow ca= n and cannot enter on certain ports.
  -- Attaching a "maximum wire-time bits per cycle" lim= itation for a flow on input.
  -- Attaching a typical burst/rate red/yellow/green (only red an= d green) rate limiting meter to a flow
  -- Restricting and/or remapping the QoS provided a packet depen= ding on input port, input time gate, and flow ID.

You cannot see the details of what cannot and cannot be specified simp= ly from the above list -- there is a processing flow defined, so that one c= an map control parameter settings (defined in the documents) to results on = the wire, so one must read the documents to understand the feature fully.

In addition, some of the queuing methods described in IEEE Std 802.1Q = and IEEE P802.1Qcr provide some protection against attacks/misbehaviors, fo= r example, by ensuring that excess traffic in one flow can affect only that= one flow's latency and loss guarantees, and not any other flows' guarantees.

From the above description, it's obvious that there there are complete= d and in-process 802 standards that can be of some help in prevention or mi= tigation of some attacks.  Such items are probably worth mentioning in= the security draft.

I hope, but cannot promise, to help with text.

-- Norm

--_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F80171DCF7lhrpml504mbxexm_-- From nobody Sun Nov 11 18:44:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15AE0130DDA for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 18:44:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uwxYK83pYv2y for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 18:43:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy9-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy9-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.20.122]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DC7A130DF3 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 18:43:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw12.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.12]) by gproxy9.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4E071E0684 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 19:43:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id M2CegqjbDE0jMM2CegCbiq; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 19:43:52 -0700 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID:Content-Description: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID: In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=7qe6mlabiitR1LbrPu7KAu+8FBiWMOCyRooHbHrFQHc=; b=EzjDnhtZr76a4fTLBJaulToQAG naywblz/7ANcU2EOUnMiB6Q27qNivyGAN/TZET+5rsvep6fIEVE2/eIkOsMXBaBjgIxF7KAVdHiMG OJa4WPssAwYEmcEEfovWIaniZ; Received: from pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.106.211]:53594 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gM2Cd-002NM1-Se for detnet@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 19:43:52 -0700 To: DetNet WG From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 09:43:45 +0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.106.211 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gM2Cd-002NM1-Se X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.106.211]:53594 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 2 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] =?utf-8?q?DetNet_=E2=80=93_TSN_Workshop?= X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 02:44:01 -0000 Hi,     I just wanted to echo what Janos stated in today's TSN meeting for those who were not present: Thank you ~100 of you who participated in this workshop.  I/we know it was an imposition to stay until Sunday after the IETF, and appreciate your stamina to continue the good the discussion past our anticipated end time. We also thank those in the IEEE who worked all the logistics and took care of us so well.  Janos really did a great job  bridging the IEEE / IETF organizations. For those who were unable to attend, the information and material from the workshop are available at: https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/tsn-task-group-agenda/#Sunday_DetNet_8211_TSN_joint_session Some key takeaways are listed on the last slide of the 1st link (Intro & Meeting Objectives) http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/detnet-tsn-farkas-chairs-intro-1118-v03.pdf and includes:     To be documented and discussed in the short term     – Document DetNet over TSN operation for routers and end-stations         [DetNet WG]     – Mapping DetNet traffic markings to TSN Stream ID [DetNet WG]     – Mapping DetNet service parameters to TSN queuing mechanisms         [DetNet WG]       o N:1 stream aggregation (network calculus for bounded latency,         and queuing) [Joint]     – Alignment of YANG models [Joint]     – IEC/IEEE 60802 DetNet requirements [Joint]     Question: How do we coordinate joint work?     Longer term topics     – Document optimized TSN aware DetNet end-station     – DetNet/TSN control plane interworking Not capture on the slide is the discussed answer to "How do we coordinate joint work?" The general agreement was that we will continue to work as we have been, i.e., individuals will help coordinate activities by participating and contributing in both groups; we will use formal liaisons when deemed appropriate by either group; and we will leverage the IEEE/IETF coordination activity, see https://www.iab.org/activities/joint-activities/iab-ieee-coordination/ . There were other topics and details discussed that didn't make it to the slide.  If you attended or see something on one the slides that you'd like to follow up on with the WG, please send a message to the list with a different and appropriate subject line -- even if responding to this message. Thanks again, Lou From nobody Sun Nov 11 19:01:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41ACA126F72 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 19:01:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_COMMENT_SAVED_URL=1.391, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_HTML_ATTACH=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HRejOzRvZzN2 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 19:01:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12f.google.com (mail-lf1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C983127133 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 19:01:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id i26so5111614lfc.0 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 19:01:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=XgXBvBw8k/zsC/ZI3aZ0o16qLkCeV9ykIiAnXYMUU4I=; b=pqRTM18pZesWW9HcGVREZ/YNn/zN1ZD2BdK7R6cVD++IiD7QR/LiCexTB0y7L5wRoH 5f7RNkyYyk2N4viFd13N9HTm8opQZBvV86x2DInBqF556+Ldy/lKqZmVZe/xLxZ5XMIH yqbxUWp/rJjgFusdM6BMvNoUE9/k+vtrlByRD42iJelMQiQ9T6/lbio2qlwZAPSmbsja 1jFjDlvDC6ijinlzq7nx2JX7gXOhdIpT/1AZC/G0spHyyMwyNUirZqIQ1dtV+ooGckq7 sPoGcdas3iUFaq7YcLQh4DY+xgb8rfMWFJ/ocC4p+nXeNRef57QFcjEDThPjnGnDpxat sEhQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=XgXBvBw8k/zsC/ZI3aZ0o16qLkCeV9ykIiAnXYMUU4I=; b=PaD3LoRlVJS+ijwutSnBbsuORh+W+dVVMGde7QhkUwXQIycBjR6tP3+UshmNXZPZi0 vu2D+fSikrSEp0U4AAHPC3FWlJEmBQuQhXwq7wLshoO+XBW64UKr2AozkL+LFW2Rm64J FVo1l+bfPflyTmRKOT8hIRi4jAxn79T6O4hNWyI50CXvkKNAW+hQLtGFtl0iGKBuyiA9 9KXw4UC3LAFWzy3wWwsgsAoQ7vFsKOwScJ0MX6De/5Krr2XmkTgwxfMzXJ/+a7ECX0Pp sGoR43MvR1wa7pVgtgrdmr2L7ct+y4HYakTlHwmUX/8wyGQRojkF1RCjn+ORtyv6i4kQ kwyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLWPSm8qAHhBO0ZMpaZQGlerwpkJyyJslCRmgvQNLnsEZJWw7hf uh83APrjbON8im6wdF0t96oYwl8WI+R/2jGNTOwPyjO1 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5ebFE5GB0VGjPsTo3RG+4PYUBVHqk8yeHw+Fk9pqvHK8h0I6OAXvZ/w3zDSq4JZUN1zMhFqKkTGUvSOMdMTiUY= X-Received: by 2002:a19:c203:: with SMTP id l3mr9642928lfc.113.1541991690134; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 19:01:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 10:01:20 +0700 Message-ID: To: DetNet WG , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="000000000000f032ed057a6eea98" Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Proposed update to DetNet OAM requirements X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 03:01:36 -0000 --000000000000f032ed057a6eea98 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f032e9057a6eea96" --000000000000f032e9057a6eea96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, we've worked with Pascal off-line to address his comments at the meeting. Attached please find the diff to the working version and its copy. Much appreciate your comments, questions, and suggestions. Regards, Greg --000000000000f032e9057a6eea96 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All,
we've worked with Pascal off-line to add= ress his comments at the meeting. Attached please find the diff to the work= ing version and its copy. Much appreciate your=C2=A0comments,=C2=A0question= s, and=C2=A0suggestions.

Regards,
Greg
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-0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: DetNet WG CC: Greg Mirsky , "paw@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Proposed update to DetNet OAM requirements Thread-Index: AQHUejQHEGA7h8YroE63RwHO34D+JqVLgTqQ Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 03:59:37 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 03:59:16 +0000 Message-ID: <1930081536f248669cbb901ed4560d56@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.75.233.148] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1930081536f248669cbb901ed4560d56XCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.12, xch-rcd-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Proposed update to DetNet OAM requirements X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG 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from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com (173.36.7.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 22:12:48 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 22:12:48 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Norman Finn , "detnet@ietf.org" CC: "draft-ietf-detnet-security.authors@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Security draft should consider IEEE 802.1Qci Thread-Index: AdR5o068YIoWUqPlRYyFmzleZwV2/gAmWVEg Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 04:12:39 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 04:11:43 +0000 Message-ID: <7c8c22165d7b4f7da53197b2e3590536@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F80171DCF7@lhrpml504-mbx.exmail.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F80171DCF7@lhrpml504-mbx.exmail.huawei.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.75.233.148] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7c8c22165d7b4f7da53197b2e3590536XCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.11, xch-aln-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Security draft should consider IEEE 802.1Qci X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 04:12:52 -0000 --_000_7c8c22165d7b4f7da53197b2e3590536XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all I made a comment at the mike that with the PREOF redundancy one of the pack= ets we get is probably the right one at the right time. The Good. Then there is the wrong guy at the right time, which could be sorted out by= usual crypto. The Bad. Then there is the right packet at the wrong time, which can confused crypto= -only security and cause rate limiters to filter out the Good. That's the U= gly. The point I made at the mike is that we need to instrument packets so that = the nodes that filter anything need to be able to sort the Good from the Ba= d and the Ugly. We need our DetNet security envelope to cover both cases, a= nd admittedly, pure crypto does not cut it, and pure shaping/policing does = not cut it either. This is why I see a particular usefulness in the securit= y work that Tal presented yesterday. All the best, Pascal From: detnet On Behalf Of Norman Finn Sent: dimanche 11 novembre 2018 16:59 To: detnet@ietf.org Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-security.authors@ietf.org Subject: [Detnet] Security draft should consider IEEE 802.1Qci One of the drivers for writing IEEE Std 802.1Qci (an amendment to IEEE 802.= 1Q-2014, and now now incorporated into IEEE 802.1Q-2018) is protection of a= TSN network from misbehaving stations or bridges, and/or deliberate attack= s. The facilities include: -- Restricting a flow to entering a a bridge on certain ports. -- Restricting a flow to a maximum frame size. -- Running a rotating schedule, synchronized with other devices in the ne= twork, that defines at what windows during a cycle that a flow can and cann= ot enter on certain ports. -- Attaching a "maximum wire-time bits per cycle" limitation for a flow o= n input. -- Attaching a typical burst/rate red/yellow/green (only red and green) r= ate limiting meter to a flow -- Restricting and/or remapping the QoS provided a packet depending on in= put port, input time gate, and flow ID. You cannot see the details of what cannot and cannot be specified simply fr= om the above list -- there is a processing flow defined, so that one can ma= p control parameter settings (defined in the documents) to results on the w= ire, so one must read the documents to understand the feature fully. In addition, some of the queuing methods described in IEEE Std 802.1Q and I= EEE P802.1Qcr provide some protection against attacks/misbehaviors, for exa= mple, by ensuring that excess traffic in one flow can affect only that one = flow's latency and loss guarantees, and not any other flows' guarantees. >From the above description, it's obvious that there there are completed and= in-process 802 standards that can be of some help in prevention or mitigat= ion of some attacks. Such items are probably worth mentioning in the secur= ity draft. I hope, but cannot promise, to help with text. -- Norm --_000_7c8c22165d7b4f7da53197b2e3590536XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear all

 

I made a comment at the mike that wit= h the PREOF redundancy one of the packets we get is probably the right one = at the right time. The Good.

Then there is the wrong guy at the ri= ght time, which could be sorted out by usual crypto. The Bad.

Then there is the right packet at the= wrong time, which can confused crypto-only security and cause rate limiter= s to filter out the Good. That’s the Ugly.

 

The point I made at the mike is that = we need to instrument packets so that the nodes that filter anything need t= o be able to sort the Good from the Bad and the Ugly. We need our DetNet security envelope to cover both cases, and admitt= edly, pure crypto does not cut it, and pure shaping/policing does not cut i= t either. This is why I see a particular usefulness in the security work th= at Tal presented yesterday.

 

All the best,

 

Pascal

 

From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf= .org> On Behalf Of Norman Finn
Sent: dimanche 11 novembre 2018 16:59
To: detnet@ietf.org
Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-security.authors@ietf.org
Subject: [Detnet] Security draft should consider IEEE 802.1Qci<= /o:p>

 

One of the drivers for writing IEEE Std = 802.1Qci (an amendment to IEEE 802.1Q-2014, and now now incorporated into I= EEE 802.1Q-2018) is protection of a TSN network from misbehaving stations or bridges, and/or deliberate attacks.

 

The facilities include:

 

  -- Restricting a flow to entering= a a bridge on certain ports.

  -- Restricting a flow to a maximu= m frame size.

  -- Running a rotating schedule, s= ynchronized with other devices in the network, that defines at what windows= during a cycle that a flow can and cannot enter on certain ports.

  -- Attaching a "maximum wire= -time bits per cycle" limitation for a flow on input.

  -- Attaching a typical burst/rate= red/yellow/green (only red and green) rate limiting meter to a flow

  -- Restricting and/or remapping t= he QoS provided a packet depending on input port, input time gate, and flow= ID.

 

You cannot see the details of what canno= t and cannot be specified simply from the above list -- there is a processi= ng flow defined, so that one can map control parameter settings (defined in the documents) to results on the wire, so one must re= ad the documents to understand the feature fully.

 

In addition, some of the queuing methods= described in IEEE Std 802.1Q and IEEE P802.1Qcr provide some protection ag= ainst attacks/misbehaviors, for example, by ensuring that excess traffic in one flow can affect only that one flow's latency an= d loss guarantees, and not any other flows' guarantees.

 

From the above description, it's obvious= that there there are completed and in-process 802 standards that can be of= some help in prevention or mitigation of some attacks.  Such items are probably worth mentioning in the security dr= aft.

 

I hope, but cannot promise, to help with= text.

 

-- Norm

 

--_000_7c8c22165d7b4f7da53197b2e3590536XCHRCD001ciscocom_-- From nobody Sun Nov 11 20:41:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC68129385 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 20:41:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.77 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.77 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.47, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rGkS4n7MDYx3 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 20:41:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB11A12007C for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 20:40:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=ericsson.com; s=mailgw201801; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@ericsson.com; t=1541997658; x=1544589658; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=CgeTUSkARfrZIF2pJvl1rkiFJiDXhQwqWWbLmXStwKk=; b=WwzMqULRg4KSO1I36ZCigoLvnXVxlrbmIlXTELQCqLKo0+xW4ecAajhrUyYqYcHb ja9vUnr6cWpTcglvLKaBKNUtDrqRH/RaJlhx6F4vRnJoqH2qAAoa1kivuJe8Tg/C XhfOgcqky6lVNMErhY0FB91YYS8S3a7vO/Xsm2n+7l0=; X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-45fff70000002747-00-5be9045ad6de Received: from ESESSMB504.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.122]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 0B.EE.10055.A5409EB5; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 05:40:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESBMR504.ericsson.se (153.88.183.139) by ESESSMB504.ericsson.se (153.88.183.192) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 05:40:57 +0100 Received: from ESESSMB502.ericsson.se (153.88.183.163) by ESESBMR504.ericsson.se (153.88.183.139) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 05:40:57 +0100 Received: from [100.94.133.3] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.190) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 15.1.1466.3 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 05:40:56 +0100 To: , "STDS-802-1-L@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG" References: From: =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= Message-ID: <5f2f8dc0-655e-22d6-6ec6-7caa871b176a@ericsson.com> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 05:40:55 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrJLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7lW4Uy8tog6mzmCx+f5rNYrH6lrcD k8eSJT+ZPFq+nWIOYIrisklJzcksSy3St0vgyvh0/RdjwWPZipvNs5kaGDdLdDFyckgImEis O3WLGcQWEjjCKNF8DCjOBWR/Y5RYvPgKM5zTf/YDK4RzmFHiy9JFTCAtwgKuEud/LGIFsUUE oiSeL3vDCDHKWuLZp7lgY9kE7CXuXtoAZvMC2ecePWMBsVkEVCUO3bwB1isqECvx6cpiqBpB iZMzn4DVcArYSDw61g5WwyxgITFz/nlGCFteonnrbGYIW1zi1pP5TBB71STeN9xhnMAoNAvJ qFlI2mchaZ+FpH0BI8sqRtHi1OLi3HQjI73Uoszk4uL8PL281JJNjMAAP7jlt9UOxoPPHQ8x CnAwKvHwbv/3IlqINbGsuDL3EKMEB7OSCO/fA0Ah3pTEyqrUovz4otKc1OJDjNIcLErivE5p FlFCAumJJanZqakFqUUwWSYOTqkGxlmJD7tm9GT2a/M2ZtWvm7ehmCvj77xFb142pyRFvpD8 5e3a3JGd0l9qGLvtkuPZxlkf7i+U4714YOfHR8z9XDMZIhlMykIC9wq77/3pd8O3/LvVyqWb PHLOOv5ru3Xt2qObktoz1pXcUmXnunJlqufPXvZLjxe/5RY99fDw3IQX1/y6toVlvVZiKc5I NNRiLipOBABAhVltbAIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] =?utf-8?q?DetNet_=E2=80=93_TSN_Workshop?= X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 04:41:02 -0000 Hi, Indeed, many thanks to all who have made it possible and contributed to the workshop. Thank you very much for the summary Lou! The summary slide is the last slide of the chairs intro deck. The current version is: http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/detnet-tsn-farkas-chairs-intro-1118-v03.pdf. The presentations are available at: http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/ each file name starts with "detnet-tsn" and includes the date "1118", which corresponds to the month and the year (MMYY). The web page used for the agenda provides live agenda during the meeting week: https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/tsn-task-group-agenda/#Sunday_DetNet_8211_TSN_joint_session After the meeting, week, the agenda will be archived at: https://1.ieee802.org/november-2018-plenary-meeting-in-bangkok-thailand-tsn-tg-agenda/ (Note that the meeting material remains in http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/, it is just linked from the agenda page.) Thank you! Best regards, János On 11/12/2018 3:43 AM, Lou Berger wrote: > Hi, > >     I just wanted to echo what Janos stated in today's TSN meeting for > those who were not present: > > Thank you ~100 of you who participated in this workshop.  I/we know it > was an imposition to stay until Sunday after the IETF, and appreciate > your stamina to continue the good the discussion past our anticipated > end time. > > We also thank those in the IEEE who worked all the logistics and took > care of us so well.  Janos really did a great job  bridging the IEEE / > IETF organizations. > > For those who were unable to attend, the information and material from > the workshop are available at: > > https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/tsn-task-group-agenda/#Sunday_DetNet_8211_TSN_joint_session > > > Some key takeaways are listed on the last slide of the 1st link (Intro > & Meeting Objectives) > http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/detnet-tsn-farkas-chairs-intro-1118-v03.pdf > > and includes: >     To be documented and discussed in the short term >     – Document DetNet over TSN operation for routers and end-stations >         [DetNet WG] >     – Mapping DetNet traffic markings to TSN Stream ID [DetNet WG] >     – Mapping DetNet service parameters to TSN queuing mechanisms >         [DetNet WG] >       o N:1 stream aggregation (network calculus for bounded latency, >         and queuing) [Joint] >     – Alignment of YANG models [Joint] >     – IEC/IEEE 60802 DetNet requirements [Joint] > >     Question: How do we coordinate joint work? > >     Longer term topics >     – Document optimized TSN aware DetNet end-station >     – DetNet/TSN control plane interworking > > Not capture on the slide is the discussed answer to "How do we > coordinate joint work?" > The general agreement was that we will continue to work as we have > been, i.e., individuals will help coordinate activities by > participating and contributing in both groups; we will use formal > liaisons when deemed appropriate by either group; and we will leverage > the IEEE/IETF coordination activity, see > https://www.iab.org/activities/joint-activities/iab-ieee-coordination/ . > > There were other topics and details discussed that didn't make it to > the slide.  If you attended or see something on one the slides that > you'd like to follow up on with the WG, please send a message to the > list with a different and appropriate subject line -- even if > responding to this message. > > Thanks again, > > Lou > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Sun Nov 11 21:28:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DCB7129BBF for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 21:28:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UmFKJcC3p7AA for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 21:27:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy2-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy2-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.18.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAF141293FB for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 21:27:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw15.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.15]) by gproxy2.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B0371E0A35 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 22:27:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id M4lPgYVvbj0soM4lPg4Qhi; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 22:27:55 -0700 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:References:To:From:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=AZI3kI+ZLwmg5FxGNjdXPdi08qZsIwtdrNneJMLKod0=; b=cGpuZP5Ov8fZn7zC4iEW8rihKC Wx6LqVhZ2ryHiyI7D8zcd+01kM+0/XQQKumrhJDokk52rgZj5CtZqvSECES0r0MSB/Lk7k359TUYZ PleJMdjtC0wE/97p0hcGkD/TT; Received: from pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.106.211]:56868 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gM4lP-0036EK-3e for detnet@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 22:27:55 -0700 From: Lou Berger To: DetNet WG References: Message-ID: <789f8e4f-9b2b-7d9f-b522-dc8f97251b2e@labn.net> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 12:27:48 +0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.106.211 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gM4lP-0036EK-3e X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.106.211]:56868 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 6 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] =?utf-8?q?Possible_solution_to_requirement_/_raised_in_?= =?utf-8?q?=22IEC=22_use_case_discussion_=28was=3A__DetNet_=E2=80=93_TSN_W?= =?utf-8?q?orkshop=29?= X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 05:28:08 -0000 Hi, The point was raised yesterday that we need a simple solution for industrial hosts which need to be as simple as possible.  They are largely unaware of the distinction of if they operate over a single TSN subnet or over (DetNet) router interconnected TSN subnets. In the mentioned use case, the hosts are IP aware and understand they are operating routers, but really don't want different control mechanisms for the TSN standalone case and DetNet case. We've talked about this case in the past and identified two different solution approaches and are pursuing the first. I think this use case says we should also be pursuing  the second.  The approaches are: 1) TSN interconnect over MPLS     There is currently a place holder in the mpls solutions draft for this (section 9). It is limited to the interconnection of TSN domains where source and destination are on the same TSN subnet -- this limitation does not match the use case requirements of operation over a routed network. 2) TSN inter-working with DetNet     We decided to defer this case when discussed previously. Based on the Workshop discussion, I think we should document this use case.  The main impact is really on control interworking.  It is worth documenting this case in the IP data plane document even though it really doesn't have significant impact on data plane processing. What do people think? Lou (as contributor) On 11/12/2018 9:43 AM, Lou Berger wrote: > Hi, > >     I just wanted to echo what Janos stated in today's TSN meeting for > those who were not present: > > Thank you ~100 of you who participated in this workshop.  I/we know it > was an imposition to stay until Sunday after the IETF, and appreciate > your stamina to continue the good the discussion past our anticipated > end time. > > We also thank those in the IEEE who worked all the logistics and took > care of us so well.  Janos really did a great job  bridging the IEEE / > IETF organizations. > > For those who were unable to attend, the information and material from > the workshop are available at: > > https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/tsn-task-group-agenda/#Sunday_DetNet_8211_TSN_joint_session > > Some key takeaways are listed on the last slide of the 1st link (Intro & > Meeting Objectives) > http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/detnet-tsn-farkas-chairs-intro-1118-v03.pdf > and includes: >     To be documented and discussed in the short term >     – Document DetNet over TSN operation for routers and end-stations >         [DetNet WG] >     – Mapping DetNet traffic markings to TSN Stream ID [DetNet WG] >     – Mapping DetNet service parameters to TSN queuing mechanisms >         [DetNet WG] >       o N:1 stream aggregation (network calculus for bounded latency, >         and queuing) [Joint] >     – Alignment of YANG models [Joint] >     – IEC/IEEE 60802 DetNet requirements [Joint] > >     Question: How do we coordinate joint work? > >     Longer term topics >     – Document optimized TSN aware DetNet end-station >     – DetNet/TSN control plane interworking > > Not capture on the slide is the discussed answer to "How do we > coordinate joint work?" > The general agreement was that we will continue to work as we have been, > i.e., individuals will help coordinate activities by participating and > contributing in both groups; we will use formal liaisons when deemed > appropriate by either group; and we will leverage the IEEE/IETF > coordination activity, see > https://www.iab.org/activities/joint-activities/iab-ieee-coordination/ . > > There were other topics and details discussed that didn't make it to the > slide.  If you attended or see something on one the slides that you'd > like to follow up on with the WG, please send a message to the list with > a different and appropriate subject line -- even if responding to this > message. > > Thanks again, > > Lou > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Sun Nov 11 21:40:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97DF2130DD6; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 21:40:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WnI0ES8FfA6i; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 21:40:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12c.google.com (mail-lf1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 478F3129C6A; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 21:40:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id p6so5265748lfc.1; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 21:40:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=vYvdfPUQrpsoIg1fB4BRPd3OEl6q9D3ynyNm5tzSmDE=; b=Dh9NvR9FOKv/bULRVM/5nhDFcmZDOMdkhgRPndA3vi1oYGzd4h8hk5NI2WnC4JvZMW QM2t3kPMGTqNUK9r2sPEQd2HIqiATZS+uVVTXYkIWD2xmi1m78JG+EucdoufDdK8SYBo rnLPWVCZnHbwAzf/5219J/2Sd6tN3+R+QLWHaK9QfPnmE/m1X6hZC4V0UN+KVLB6aCht vw+Rw18yGW9qMBEwL6oj2mHFeyvoADjoz3yDbm9gZ6+VTUPMLrLMNNYrzfFSLo1fb/8g NtPg8XzudPiBwYyFF9Xp/M/Q2E9K7U8+hAzOxuQ9wcdos233lrf1jeN1n05ukz/mc8Ou 742g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=vYvdfPUQrpsoIg1fB4BRPd3OEl6q9D3ynyNm5tzSmDE=; b=SKOUcXo9kP25Mom6rEGZHLt6ywJUqja1AnZdYw3a1nuq0V+a5BZ6pMIvMfdTxI5JI1 rRzlZus4fx8lkuuQDA8VHdr2qDwodIm+fctZrtU2/dXBixYwJN7zDWuIAZBxH+I8QGBs KSOBQyrRB1F8TknxqywPt0seF5ZXVL3qVpa5xFbuqKQKYycfqu3giKsKrX8scfP4aetn FcH7wdWUra4GqRDV40ah0Nvri2Cv58ZJkJqUGLJ9McnIM4y2YlzSJ+sL+uqdyh6dUzmy u70NSQ0/0TqCVVYXy61Qa3rk9fDST6iHNTRAng2z+l9bwCJBMaRL5dhwT3O5QUoS0jhm e1cA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLRaPEqnR4kh+XMZIbjMKtre5TkAXtrnpAUjOegc1EXs+g0lraS 3vVE2I18I+lXbsv9PETsbYXaAfx9Tz4q/DBzIN5j1Msc X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5f7m+Fch3QO9g/7lIw/gJ2MAcYorMgislxfua4TqkotHehZDC1NDpxDv/gqQzLLKd7jwhwLxWSFaTvzh4mzK/U= X-Received: by 2002:a19:7919:: with SMTP id u25mr9902905lfc.18.1542001240590; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 21:40:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154200101244.26165.3408173776032769259.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <154200101244.26165.3408173776032769259.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 12:40:31 +0700 Message-ID: To: DetNet WG , detnet-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000304ed5057a71240b" Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-detnet-oam-02.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 05:40:46 -0000 --000000000000304ed5057a71240b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, this is the updated version to address comments received at the meeting in Bangkok. Dear Lou and Janos, Pascal has confirmed that his comments have been addressed in the new version of the draft. Authors much appreciate your consideration to start the WG adoption poll. Regards, Greg ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 12:36 PM Subject: New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-detnet-oam-02.txt To: Gregory Mirsky , Mach Chen (Guoyi) < mach.chen@huawei.com> A new version of I-D, draft-mirsky-detnet-oam-02.txt has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-mirsky-detnet-oam Revision: 02 Title: Operations, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) for Deterministic Networks (DetNet) Document date: 2018-11-11 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 11 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mirsky-detnet-oam-02.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-detnet-oam/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-detnet-oam-02 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-mirsky-detnet-oam Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-mirsky-detnet-oam-02 Abstract: This document lists functional requirements for Operations, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) toolset in Deterministic Networks (DetNet) and, using these requirements; defines format and use principals of the DetNet service Associated Channel. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --000000000000304ed5057a71240b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All,
this is the updated version to address comme= nts received at the meeting in Bangkok.

Dear Lou a= nd Janos,
Pascal has confirmed that his comments have been addres= sed in the new version of the draft. Authors much appreciate your considera= tion to start the WG adoption poll.

Regards,
=
Greg

---------- For= warded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: M= on, Nov 12, 2018 at 12:36 PM
Subject: New Version Notification for draft= -mirsky-detnet-oam-02.txt
To: Gregory Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Mach Chen (Guoyi) <mach.chen@huawei.com>
<= br>

A new version of I-D, draft-mirsky-detnet-oam-02.txt
has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-mirsky-detnet-oam
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A002
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Operations, Administration and Mai= ntenance (OAM) for Deterministic Networks (DetNet)
Document date:=C2=A0 2018-11-11
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 11
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mirsky-detnet-oam-0= 2.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ht= tps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-detnet-oam/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://to= ols.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-detnet-oam-02
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0htt= ps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-mirsky-detnet-oam
Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-mirsky-detnet-oam-02<= br>
Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document lists functional requirements for Operations, =C2=A0 =C2=A0Administration and Maintenance (OAM) toolset in Deterministic<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Networks (DetNet) and, using these requirements; defines forma= t and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0use principals of the DetNet service Associated Channel.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

--000000000000304ed5057a71240b-- From nobody Mon Nov 12 21:10:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AFD7130DC3 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 21:10:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fRQbmmz53sVy for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 21:10:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54605126F72 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 21:10:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3874; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1542085838; x=1543295438; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=LpMowKx2M3Ci4RuSztiM8hp7YMh2W38R/iQ5W3cob6s=; b=EqvSSHk4LxaZlDzYuiQbcrmofySD3shJNIVyBYPDnixgCx83nGYrcCbJ Ra9KBGLNh2sCeuF5JXz6l0TBHVeyV4MUft9xvKw9iSqV4qq9XvbpYTXQu 59IQccbCdMLd+G6JB4hR0dfSqkiJSjHBhY767FLvBtXlfP8dIDZ4xwu+S Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AEAADSW+pb/4wNJK1jGgEBAQEBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEHAgEBAQGBUQUBAQEBCwGBDUguZoECMYwGi3uRDIJihVQUgWYLAQEjh3g?= =?us-ascii?q?iNA0NAQMBAQIBAQJtHAyFbl4BDHQfBwEEG4MagR1kD6k4hC0BAwKFfAWMABe?= =?us-ascii?q?BQD+HPgEBA4EmhhMCjmyQYwkChnSEfoUhIJBwiDOESCuKKwIRFIEmHTiBVXA?= =?us-ascii?q?VgyiCJheCLIYyhT5BjS2BHwEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.54,498,1534809600"; d="scan'208,217";a="483880311" Received: from alln-core-7.cisco.com ([173.36.13.140]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 13 Nov 2018 05:10:37 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (xch-aln-004.cisco.com [173.36.7.14]) by alln-core-7.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id wAD5Ab4w028578 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Nov 2018 05:10:37 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (173.36.7.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 23:10:36 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 23:10:36 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "detnet@ietf.org" , "Black, David" Thread-Topic: pulling packets Thread-Index: AdR7DhnsUHHFp74PReiHX8huqYyB6A== Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 05:10:24 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 05:09:57 +0000 Message-ID: <0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.75.233.111] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2XCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.14, xch-aln-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-7.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] pulling packets X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 05:10:40 -0000 --_000_0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all This video https://youtu.be/BO0QhaxBRr0 has a great illustration of the UNI= packet pull method that we use in section "5.1. Local Loop Flow Control" = of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-01 to p= ull packets from the detnet unaware host from the detnet ingress box. The p= roblem for detnet is that shaping in the detnet ingress can create bloat an= d uncontrolled end to end latency so we want to control the maximum amount = of pending frames to keep the detnet ingress busy and push back to the L4/5= for anything above that. I hope you'll love the video as much as I did; Pascal --_000_0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear all

 

This video https://youtu.be/BO0QhaxBRr0<= /a> has a great illustration of the UNI packet pull method that we use i= n section “5.1.  Local Loop Flow Control” of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-01 to pull packets from the detnet unaware host from the detnet ingress box.= The problem for detnet is that shaping in the detnet ingress can create bloat and uncontrolled end to end latency= so we want to control the maximum amount of pending frames to keep the det= net ingress busy and push back to the L4/5 for anything above that.

 

I hope you’ll love the video as much as I did;=

 

Pascal

--_000_0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2XCHRCD001ciscocom_-- From nobody Tue Nov 13 23:58:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ED11130E1A for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 23:58:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j1NaUNNBD_aP for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 23:57:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FAC5130DD9 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 23:57:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 4977CB4F4B78A for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 07:57:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMA422-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.155) by LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 07:57:53 +0000 Received: from DGGEMA521-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.6.27]) by dggema422-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.198.155]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 15:57:50 +0800 From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "Black, David" Thread-Topic: pulling packets Thread-Index: AdR7DhnsUHHFp74PReiHX8huqYyB6AA4VCxg Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 07:57:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.169.123] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C23812422dggema521mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 07:58:02 -0000 --_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C23812422dggema521mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Pascal, I consider the problem of "DetNet transport layer" all over again, and fina= lly I make myself confused. So I send this email to search for help. Please= correct me if you find anything wrong below: 1. TSN doesn't need transport layer, because the talker and listener = are TSN aware, and they can send the packets in some particular time slot b= ased on the traffic specification; 2. DetNet does need transport layer, because talker and listener are = not under control; 3. TCP can't be used for DetNet , because TCP tries to find the "fair= bandwidth" for the flows and it makes the flow rate changes all the time, = while the sending rate of DetNet is supposed to be constant, and every pack= et should show up in an expected time slot; 4. UDP can't be used for DetNet, because there is no rate control. If= the talker sends the packets in the wrong pattern, UDP can do nothing. 5. So we need "DetNet transport layer", which can :a. Send the packet= in a deterministic pattern; b. If anything goes wrong, make it go back to = the correct pattern. 6. This, finally, makes the talker "DetNet aware"(especially point a = above), which is just the same as what happens in TSN. If this logic chain works, what we actually requires is just a DetNet talke= r rather than a new transport layer. Best Regards Xuesong From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (= pthubert) Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:10 PM To: detnet@ietf.org; Black, David Subject: [Detnet] pulling packets Dear all This video https://youtu.be/BO0QhaxBRr0 has a great illustration of the UNI= packet pull method that we use in section "5.1. Local Loop Flow Control" = of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-01 to p= ull packets from the detnet unaware host from the detnet ingress box. The p= roblem for detnet is that shaping in the detnet ingress can create bloat an= d uncontrolled end to end latency so we want to control the maximum amount = of pending frames to keep the detnet ingress busy and push back to the L4/5= for anything above that. I hope you'll love the video as much as I did; Pascal --_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C23812422dggema521mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Pascal,

 

I consider the problem of “DetNet transport layer= ” all over again, and finally I make myself confused. So I send this = email to search for help. Please correct me if you find anything wrong below:

1.       TSN doesn’t need transport layer, because the talker and listener ar= e TSN aware, and they can send the packets in some particular time slot bas= ed on the traffic specification;

2.       DetNet does need transport layer, because talker and listener are not unde= r control;

3.       TCP can’t be used for DetNet , because TCP tries to find the “= fair bandwidth” for the flows and it makes the flow rate changes all = the time, while the sending rate of DetNet is supposed to be constant, and every packet should show up in an expected time slot;<= o:p>

4.       UDP can’t be used for DetNet, because there is no rate control. If t= he talker sends the packets in the wrong pattern, UDP can do nothing.<= /o:p>

5.       So we need “DetNet transport layer”, which can :a. Send the pa= cket in a deterministic pattern; b. If anything goes wrong, make it go back= to the correct pattern.

6.       This, finally, makes the talker “DetNet aware”(especially poin= t a above), which is just the same as what happens in TSN.

 

If this logic chain works, what we actually requires is= just a DetNet talker rather than a new transport layer.<= /p>

 

 

Best Regards

Xuesong

 

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:10 PM
To: detnet@ietf.org; Black, David <David.Black@dell.com>
Subject: [Detnet] pulling packets

 

Dear all

 

This video https://youtu.be/BO0QhaxBRr0 has a great illustration of the UNI packet pull method that w= e use in section “5.1.  Local Loop Flow Control” of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-01 to pull packets from the detnet unaware host from the detnet ingress box.= The problem for detnet is that shaping in the detnet ingress can create bloat and uncontrolled end to end latency= so we want to control the maximum amount of pending frames to keep the det= net ingress busy and push back to the L4/5 for anything above that.

 

I hope you’ll love the vi= deo as much as I did;

 

Pascal

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03:52:54 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" CC: "detnet@ietf.org" , "Black, David" Thread-Topic: pulling packets Thread-Index: AdR7DhnsUHHFp74PReiHX8huqYyB6AA4VCxgAAQZfzA= Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 09:52:54 +0000 Message-ID: <8D171B16-FD22-46CD-9D2B-24070F2DC433@cisco.com> References: <0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8D171B16FD2246CD9D2B24070F2DC433ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.13, xch-aln-003.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-5.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: 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X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-5.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 09:59:24 -0000 --_000_6EDA7130E2834D72B9DD0211BB12E763ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VHlwb3MgYmVsb3csIHNvbWUgdGhhbmtzIHRvIG15IGludGVsbGlnZW50IHNtYXJ0IHBob25lLCBh bmQgc29tZSB0byBjb25mdXNlZC1tZS4NCg0KUGxlYXNlIHJlYWQ6DQoNCkFsbCBpbiBhbGwsIHRo aXMgdGVsbHMgbWUgdGhhdCB0aGUgZGV0bmV0IHNlcnZpY2UgbGF5ZXIgb3BlcmF0ZXMgYXQgbGF5 ZXIgNA0KDQpSZWdhcmRzLA0KDQpQYXNjYWwNCg0KTGUgMTQgbm92LiAyMDE4IMOgIDE2OjUzLCBQ YXNjYWwgVGh1YmVydCAocHRodWJlcnQpIDxwdGh1YmVydEBjaXNjby5jb208bWFpbHRvOnB0aHVi ZXJ0QGNpc2NvLmNvbT4+IGEgw6ljcml0IDoNCg0KSGVsbG8gWHVlc29uZzoNCg0KV2UgZG8gbGF5 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AdR7DhnsUHHFp74PReiHX8huqYyB6AA4VCxgAAQZfzAACrJHgAABGCtQ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 15:52:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com>, , <8D171B16-FD22-46CD-9D2B-24070F2DC433@cisco.com> <6EDA7130-E283-4D72-B9DD-0211BB12E763@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <6EDA7130-E283-4D72-B9DD-0211BB12E763@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.238.21.131] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D2432779493630342BA8MX307CL04corpem_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd53.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-11-14_13:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1811140143 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 15:53:01 -0000 --_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D2432779493630342BA8MX307CL04corpem_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Qm90dG9tIExpbmU6ICBJIHdvdWxkIHN1Z2dlc3QgZm9jdXNpbmcgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvZiBhIERl dE5ldCDigJx0cmFuc3BvcnQgcHJvdG9jb2zigJ0gb24gd2hhdCBoYXMgdG8gYmUgZG9uZSB2aWEg dHVubmVscyB0byBtYWtlIFBSRU9GIHdvcmsgZm9yIHRoZSBJUCBzb2x1dGlvbiAoZGF0YSBwbGFu ZSksIGFuZCB3b3VsZCBzdWdnZXN0IHVzaW5nIHNlcGFyYXRlIGRyYWZ0cyBmb3IgdGhpcyBhbmQg bG9jYWwgbG9vcCB0cmFmZmljIHNoYXBpbmcuDQoNCkRldGFpbHMgaW5saW5lIOKApg0KDQpUaGFu 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([173.37.93.157]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 14 Nov 2018 16:40:33 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-003.cisco.com (xch-rcd-003.cisco.com [173.37.102.13]) by rcdn-core-6.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id wAEGeWhV002252 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Nov 2018 16:40:32 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-003.cisco.com (173.37.102.13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:40:32 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:40:31 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "Black, David" CC: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] pulling packets Thread-Index: AQHUfACw9Y6tWkDlI0mXp06Kopix06VP0KwA//+o1tg= Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 16:40:31 +0000 Message-ID: <0C722534-D42B-4822-8E64-354DAD00BB03@cisco.com> References: <0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com>, , <8D171B16-FD22-46CD-9D2B-24070F2DC433@cisco.com> <6EDA7130-E283-4D72-B9DD-0211BB12E763@cisco.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_0C722534D42B48228E64354DAD00BB03ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.13, xch-rcd-003.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-6.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 16:40:42 -0000 --_000_0C722534D42B48228E64354DAD00BB03ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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E=Sophos;i="5.56,233,1539648000"; d="scan'208,217";a="481656556" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 14 Nov 2018 16:46:14 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com (xch-rcd-001.cisco.com [173.37.102.11]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id wAEGkE6Z025929 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Nov 2018 16:46:14 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:46:14 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:46:13 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "Black, David" CC: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] pulling packets Thread-Index: AQHUfACw9Y6tWkDlI0mXp06Kopix06VP0KwA//+o1tiAAAGYoA== Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 16:46:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com>, , <8D171B16-FD22-46CD-9D2B-24070F2DC433@cisco.com> <6EDA7130-E283-4D72-B9DD-0211BB12E763@cisco.com>, , <0C722534-D42B-4822-8E64-354DAD00BB03@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <0C722534-D42B-4822-8E64-354DAD00BB03@cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B11DB77C42FD4A889E448E5EF4CF272Cciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.11, xch-rcd-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 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cmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9kZXRuZXQ8L2E+PG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPC9k aXY+DQo8L2Jsb2NrcXVvdGU+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0 bWw+DQo= --_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D2432779493630344A84MX307CL04corpem_-- From nobody Wed Nov 14 18:06:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0E11130D7A for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 18:06:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.952 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.952 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1mLxd9Q6oWyp for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 18:06:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 036951274D0 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 18:06:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03B52548027; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 03:06:18 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id DFEAB440210; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 03:06:18 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 03:06:18 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Norman Finn Cc: "Black, David" , Lou Berger , "detnet@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20181115020618.hdhe6t5gp5ykmo6m@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <3a071fa3-681b-99ed-0c1f-e1183c491d82@labn.net> <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8016FBFD8@lhrpml504-mbs.exmail.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8016FBFD8@lhrpml504-mbs.exmail.huawei.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Your comment on 5 tuple vs 6 tuple flow identification X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 02:06:29 -0000 On Fri, Nov 09, 2018 at 02:11:48AM +0000, Norman Finn wrote: > I rather like David's "flow = 5-tuple, QoS = 6-tuple". Btw: I was saying exactly the same thing at the mike @IETF101 but the that just ended up in a long debate that resultet AFAIK in no change in the documents. IMHO, It would really help to avoid a lot of future misdesigns if DSCP was clearly not prt of the DetNet IP flow identification, but just defining QoS, and depending on what QoS mechanism is used it could be one or multiple values. Cheers Toerless > It may be that there are RFCs that permit the DCSP to influence the choice of output interface, but I definitely don't want DetNet to require or assume this capability. > > FWIW, IEEE 802 is very strict about that; L2 priority does not influence forwarding -- only QoS. > > -- Norm > > ________________________________________ > From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Black, David [David.Black@dell.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2018 7:06 AM > To: Lou Berger > Cc: detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Your comment on 5 tuple vs 6 tuple flow identification > > Lou, > > I think that there are two subtly different concepts here: > > >> you're basically saying that a single 5-tuple flow > >> should never be sent over a different path through a network. > > I think that overstates what I said, but it's also not the same concept as: > > >> Given those RFCs (and real > >> deployments) don't preclude nexthop selection based on DSCP in this > >> document, i.e., at the architectural level. > > Nexthop selection based on DSCP seems ok. Senders are supposed to mark > flows, at least for reliable delivery transport protocols, with only one or > a consistent set of DSCPs is used that won't cause reordering (for more on > this see RFC 7657). > > Web RTC mixes a bunch of different types and priorities of traffic onto a > single 5-tuple, and can use a variety of DSCPs for it - see > draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos. If one uses DSCP for next hop selection, > that would result in different paths for different types & priorities of traffic, > which could result in extensive reordering. That's ok, as the Web RTC > receiver is not expecting ordered delivery outside of a single [type, priority] > traffic subset. > > > Note that I'm limiting this > > comment to the architecture draft -- I'm not changing my view on what > > should be documented in the ip solution draft, i.e., what was summarized > > in the IP related thread on the DetNet list. > > I think we're agreeing, but I'm not sure why the architecture draft is part > of this discussion thread. My 5-tuple vs. 6-tuple comment at the microphone > was in the context of promising to carefully write some text for clarity in > this area of the IP solution draft. > > Thanks, --David > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger > > Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 3:05 AM > > To: Black, David > > Cc: detnet@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Your comment on 5 tuple vs 6 tuple flow identification > > > > > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive > > information. > > > > > > > > On 11/8/2018 2:45 PM, Black, David wrote: > > > Lou Berger writes: > > > > > >> I paraphrased my understanding of your comment on 5-tuple vs > > >> 6-tuple as that 5 tuple can be used for next hop selection, but 6-tuple > > >> (5+DSCP) should only be used for different traffic treatment. Assuming > > >> this is correct, you're basically saying that a single 5-tuple flow > > >> should never be sent over a different path through a network. Is this a > > >> correct interpretation of your comments? > > >> > > >> If so, how do you see Multi-topology (RFCs 4915, 5120, 7722) routing > > >> conforming/meeting this requirement? > > > In practice, I'd generally expect network operators to configure topology > > > selection so that each 5-tuple flow uses a single topology. Spreading a > > > 5-tuple flow across multiple topologies is likely to lead to packet reordering > > > that can cause negative effects on some transport protocols and applications. > > > > While I don't disagree that this is reasonable, it isn't what is > > supported by the MTR RFCs I reference above. Given those RFCs (and real > > deployments) don't preclude nexthop selection based on DSCP in this > > document, i.e., at the architectural level. Note that I'm limiting this > > comment to the architecture draft -- I'm not changing my view on what > > should be documented in the ip solution draft, i.e., what was summarized > > in the IP related thread on the DetNet list. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Lou > > > > > > > In general, see the discussion of Transport Protocols and Reordering in > > > Section 5.1 of RFC 7657, which deals with reordering that arises from a > > > different cause: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7657#section-5.1. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > --David > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > detnet mailing list > > > detnet@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Wed Nov 14 18:35:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C528130E0C for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 18:35:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.952 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.952 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vyNYMr_pmvzW for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 18:35:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51CFC1298C5 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 18:35:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24548548027; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 03:35:24 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 17D48440210; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 03:35:24 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 03:35:24 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Lou Berger Cc: "Black, David" , "detnet@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20181115023523.lbatoo7lr54ybyxt@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Your comment on 5 tuple vs 6 tuple flow identification X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 02:35:30 -0000 At the end... On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 02:22:51PM +0700, Lou Berger wrote: > Hi David, > > I paraphrased my understanding of your comment on 5-tuple vs 6-tuple as > that 5 tuple can be used for next hop selection, but 6-tuple (5+DSCP) should > only be used for different traffic treatment. Assuming this is correct, > you're basically saying that a single 5-tuple flow should never be sent over > a different path through a network. Is this a correct interpretation of > your comments? > > If so, how do you see Multi-topology (RFCs 4915, 5120, 7722) routing > conforming/meeting this requirement? > > Thanks, > > Lou Lou In my memory, the investment into DSCP based MTR for IP unicast was a desaster for the vendors because customers first thought it was a good idea, it got implemented, and then customers figured 'oh wait, i need QoS and MTR, but overloading a sinle selector make it really unmanageable". And i had problems avoiding for the MTR routing code to become unsupported in products because it was still valuable for IP multicsat, even with two topologies to do dual-transmission solutions (with PREF being mostly done by endpoints, only little of that managed to go into routers unfortunately... Hence the interest in DetNet to bring more PREF into routers ;-) In any case, i have posted the following to LSR to figure out what the rough consensus for DSCP with MTR could be, lets see if my understanding is right or not. Cheers Toerless From: Toerless Eckert To: lsr@ietf.org Subject: LSR: Using DSCP for path/topology selection Q Message-ID: <20181115022918.pfgcztognsjeb37v@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Whats the current best guidance on using DSCP for selection of path, specifically for selection of topology with MTR (RFCs 4915, 5120, 7722) ? My understanding from history is that this looked like a good idea to customers first, but when implementations became available, customers really did not want to implement it because of the overloading of DSCP between QoS and routing and the resulting management complexity. Has the idea of using DSCP for path selection been re-introduced in any later work like flex-Algos ? If there could be rough consensus that this is in general a bad idea, i wonder if it would be appropriate to have a short normative document from LSR defining that the use of DSCP for topology selection is historic and not recommended anymore and make this an update to above three RFCs, maybe also pointing out that there are other methods to select a topology and those remain viable: I specifically would not like to see the actual MTR RFCs to be changed in status, because MTR actually does work quite well and is supported in products and deployed with IP multicast, even with multiple topologies for IP multicast in live-live scenarios. Thanks! Toerless From nobody Wed Nov 14 19:57:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C05D012426A; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 19:56:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.952 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.952 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ePwLBCOcGrr5; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 19:56:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62E9C1277D2; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 19:56:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13DAA548005; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 04:56:38 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 04468440210; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 04:56:37 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 04:56:37 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: "Scharf, Michael" Cc: "Black, David" , Lou Berger , 'J?nos Farkas' , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , DetNet WG , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20181115035637.7lzevvoeulr7qm7h@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <0bb7176c-c386-b863-a4f8-06254f4627ab@ericsson.com> <1705d15c-c7ba-c76f-88db-c75f1a88db0f@ericsson.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D143BE1@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D15213B@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D152997@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D152997@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 03:56:52 -0000 On Fri, Nov 09, 2018 at 06:38:30AM +0000, Scharf, Michael wrote: > Indeed. > > And, as noted in my earlier way, depending on how the PRF is realized DetNet may even shield DetNet traffic from packet losses due to congestion, i.e., even traffic that would be able to react to congestion may not react due to DetNet. If DetNet is able to mask congestion from the carried traffic, special care is needed inside DetNet. I don't think we should complicate the matters by talking about DetNet flows that may react to congestion. I don't think this is in scope of the current architecture. AFAIK, all DetNet flows have a known envelope, and DetNet flows should be shutdown (filtered/blocked) by the DetNet service whenever they exceed the envelope (*). Within the envelope of DetNet flows, there is no useful support for congestion loss, because congestion constitutes a misconfiguration or misbehavior of the DetNet service. PEF/POF could actually act as a circuit breaker using the maximum permissible loss of the envelope as a trigger to make the PRF stop the flow. That would be a good feature for the PREOF. Cheers Toerless (*) I am not sure if DetNet intends to make such a strong statement, but from what i heard, this is usually done in TSN applications: If you have an interlocked system and a sender exceeds its envelope, that indicates a malfunctioning sender, and there is no way to design a safe&secure system with randomnly malfunctioning components. Shutting down a component by stopping its traffic is a supported system behavior resulting typically in bringing up redundant components or shutting down parts of the system. Unknown component behavior results in unpredictable system behavior, often catastrophic. > > That quoted comment is followed by a "reduce to previous case" argument > > about networking in general: > > > > > > WRT escaped traffic, as I mentioned in today's session, I really > > think > > > > this is no difference between escaped DetNet traffic and traffic > > > > delivered over an uncongested network to a peer (congested or > > > > uncongested) network. > > > > Unfortunately, that argument leads to a contradiction, namely a > > conclusion that congestion control is not necessary for the Internet, > > which is known to be wrong. Having arrived at a result that > > mathematicians would call "proof by contradiction," one of the > > assumptions that lead to this point has to be wrong, but which one? > > > > The "clear, simple and wrong" (Mencken) approach to resolving this > > would be to focus on the inelastic traffic and require that all DetNet > > traffic MUST be congestion controlled. I'm not advocating this, and > > neither is Michael. > > > > A more subtle approach (with credit to Deb Brungard for an insightful > > discussion after RTGAREA yesterday) is to recognize that DetNet is a > > Controlled Environment, to which different rules apply than the > > Internet and networks in general. For the definition of Controlled > > Environment, see Section 3.6 of RFC 8085 > > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8085#section-3.6). For now, please > > ignore the material in that section on safety, robustness and > > corruption, as inapplicable to this discussion. FWIW, that material > > was motivated by the incessant attempts to optimize out UDP checksums > > without serious consideration of the resulting packet corruption risks > > and the potential consequences thereof. Viewing DetNet as a Controlled > > Environment, this discussion is then primarily about what to require/do > > at the boundary between the DetNet Controlled Environment and other > > networks. I've been there, done that for other Controlled Environments > > ... and have the scars ... from the worked examples in RFC 7510 > > (MPLS/UDP) and RFC 8086's TMCE (Traffic Management Controlled > > Environment) applicability scenario for GRE/UDP. Those two RFCs may be > > helpful background reading. > > > > The good news here is that we are not as far from agreeing on a > > solution as might appear from the length of this discussion. Going > > back to a couple of chunks of text that Janos proposed earlier: > > > > NEW: > > This document provides the overall Architecture for Deterministic > > Networking (DetNet), which provides a capability for the delivery > > of > > data flows with extremely low packet loss rates and bounded end- > > to- > > end delivery latency within a network domain. DetNet is for > > networks > > that are under a single administrative control or within a closed > > group > > of administrative control; these include campus-wide networks and > > private WANs. DetNet is not for large groups of domains such as > > the > > Internet. > > > > That reads to me as a clear statement that a DetNet network is a > > Controlled Environment, so I would hope that we're in agreement on > > that. > > > > NEW: > > Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of possible > > failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet network > > to > > detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, or > > at > > the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, filters and > > policers can take action to discard offending packets or flows, > > or > > trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting down > > the offending interface. > > > > That proposed text actually contains two circuit breakers, "shutting > > down the offending DetNet flow" or "shutting down the offending > > interface." So far, so good, but what's missing is text on deployment > > requirements of the mechanisms described in that text, particularly at > > the edges of DetNet networks. > > Yep, strict deployment requirements are needed. > > > Text that requires deployment of "filters and policers ... [that] > > discard offending [DetNet] packets and flows" at the boundaries between > > DetNet and non-DetNet networks would go a long way towards resolving > > this discussion. I would suggest expanding "offending" into text that > > includes all unauthorized DetNet traffic and all unexpected DetNet > > traffic. Once that's done, the "circuit breaker" discussion becomes > > more tractable, as the discarding of all DetNet traffic that would > > otherwise escape the DetNet network reduces the "circuit breaker" > > discussion to the existing DetNet material measures that need to be > > taken inside a DetNet network to protect delivery of DetNet service. > > As already mentioned, it is possible that some solutions don't need any "circuit breaker" as they achieve sufficient robustness by some other means. I only ask for text that explains how to avoid harm from non-DetNet networks, not for a specific solution. > > Michael > > > > > > Thanks, --David > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Scharf, Michael [mailto:Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de] > > > Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 1:12 PM > > > To: Lou Berger; Black, David; 'Jnos Farkas' > > > Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet- > > architecture.all@ietf.org > > > Subject: RE: [Tsv-art] [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft- > > ietf-detnet- > > > architecture-08 > > > > > > > > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > > Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for > > sensitive > > > information. > > > > > > > > > Inline > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Tsv-art [mailto:tsv-art-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou > > Berger > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 8:45 AM > > > > To: Black, David; Scharf, Michael; 'Jnos Farkas' > > > > Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft- > > ietf- > > > > detnet-architecture-08 > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > See below for in-line responses > > > > > > > > On 11/5/2018 12:21 AM, Black, David wrote: > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > >>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on > > network > > > > robustness > > > > >>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For > > instance, > > > > >>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet > > > > replication could > > > > >>> severely and permanently congest a network and cause harm. > > > > > [... snip ...] > > > > >> NEW: > > > > >> Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of > > possible > > > > >> failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet > > network to > > > > >> detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, or > > at > > > > >> the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, filters and > > > > >> policers can take action to discard offending packets or flows, > > or > > > > >> trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting > > down > > > > >> the offending interface. > > > > >> > > > > >> [ms] That does not address my concern. As I wrote already, I > > believe > > > > this > > > > >> document has to discuss the applicability of circuit breakers > > > > according to RFC > > > > >> 8084. > > > > > I concur with Michael's implied concern that the "should" in the > > NEW > > > > text > > > > > is woefully inadequate. The provisions to prevent escaped non- > > > > elastic traffic > > > > > from causing damage elsewhere need to be mandatory particularly > > if > > > > DetNet > > > > > and non-DetNet networks are interconnected. The above > > > > > text on filters doesn't appear to cover escape from the DetNet > > > > network, > > > > > and needs to do so. Deployment of filters at DetNet nodes that > > drop > > > > all > > > > > DetNet traffic that tries to escape, and that drop all > > misdirected > > > > DetNet > > > > > traffic should address most of this problem. > > > > > > > > > > Once that is done, I think a discussion of circuit breakers is > > > > needed, in the > > > > > form of Detnet service mechanisms that can shut down (cease > > > > transmission > > > > > of) a flow that is being sent entirely into the bit-bucket by a > > > > downstream filter, > > > > > due to misconfiguration, failure, etc. > > > > > > > > I think we have a bit of a disconnect of what DetNet service > > delivers. > > > > > > > > DetNet does not itself impact any Transport protocol (e.g., UDP, > > TCP) > > > > so itself does not *produce* elastic or non-elastic traffic. > > > > > > First, the question whether DetNet *produces* elastic or non-elastic > > traffic does > > > not matter for the applicability of circuit breakers. Section 3 of > > RFC 8084 states: > > > > > > CBs are RECOMMENDED for IETF protocols and tunnels that carry non- > > > congestion-controlled Internet flows and for traffic aggregates. > > > This includes traffic sent using a network tunnel. Designers of > > > other protocols and tunnel encapsulations also ought to consider > > the > > > use of these techniques as a last resort to protect traffic that > > > shares the network path being used. > > > > > > Section 3.2.1.1 of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-09 explains > > explicitly that > > > DetNet can carry non-congestion-controlled traffic: > > > > > > Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled, i.e., its > > > transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion > > > notification. > > > > > > So, clearly the condition of carrying non-congestion-controlled flows > > or traffic > > > aggregates applies to the DetNet architecture. And, as a result, the > > > RECOMMENDED in RFC 8084 is in principle applicable to DetNet. Also, > > note that > > > the RECOMMENDED in RFC 8084 is not limited to tunnels. > > > > > > As pointed out by David, the key question is whether, and how, the > > DetNet > > > architecture prevents that non-congestion controlled traffic escapes > > from a > > > controlled environment into the Internet. As also explained in RFC > > 8084, this > > > question in particular matters for failure scenarios. > > > > > > As TSV-ART reviewer, I insist in a discussion of this problem in > > draft-ietf-detnet- > > > architecture. And I believe that a reference to RFC 8084 is needed in > > draft-ietf- > > > detnet-architecture. > > > > > > Note that the wording in RFC 8084 is RECOMMENDED and not MUST, i.e., > > it is > > > possible that circuit breakers may not be needed for certain > > solutions. As an > > > example, MPLS traffic may not easily escape from a managed MPLS > > network. > > > > > > > > > Second, in my TSV-ART review I have explicitly mentioned the DetNet > > Packet > > > Replication Function (PRF). Replicating non-elastic traffic may > > create additional > > > challenges if the replicated packets can somehow escape into the > > Internet, e.g., > > > in failure cases. For instance, as far as I understand draft-ietf- > > detnet- > > > architecture, I assume the PRF can replicate non-congestion- > > controlled traffic > > > and forward it along different paths. If one of these paths escapes > > to the > > > Internet, to the Internet the PRF could basically be a producer of > > non-congestion > > > controlled traffic, and that traffic could cause significant harm in > > the Internet. > > > Also, note that in that case it may not necessarily help if the > > traffic carried by > > > DetNet is elastic, e.g., if DetNet carries TCP traffic. For instance, > > if other paths > > > used by the PRF within the DetNet domain would deliver all packets, > > the > > > congestion control in TCP would not never be triggered as each packet > > gets > > > indeed delivered over one of the paths. So, an unelastic traffic > > stream would > > > escale into the Internet and never back off. Unless I miss something, > > DetNet > > > needs counter-means to prevent this sort of issues. > > > > > > As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe draft-ietf-detnet-architecture needs a > > dedicated > > > discussion whether the PRF can cause harm and, if so, how to avoid > > such harm. > > > > > > > DetNet operates at Layer 3 and basically provides detnet flows with > > a > > > > service equivalent to IntServ's Guaranteed Quality of Service. As > > > > such, > > > > DetNet flows basically operate as if the network is uncongested. > > > > > > RFC 8084 exactly addresses that case. The question is not the normal > > operation > > > of the network, but abnormal cases. > > > > > > > WRT escaped traffic, as I mentioned in today's session, I really > > think > > > > this is no difference between escaped DetNet traffic and traffic > > > > delivered over an uncongested network to a peer (congested or > > > > uncongested) network. > > > > > > That comes down to how the DetNet network deals with abnormal > > situations at > > > the edges, e.g., for the problems mentioned in RFC 8084: > > > > > > o anomalous traffic that exceeds the provisioned capacity (or > > whose > > > traffic characteristics exceed the threshold configured for the > > > CB); > > > > > > o traffic generated by an application at a time when the > > provisioned > > > network capacity is being utilized for other purposes; > > > > > > o routing changes that cause additional traffic to start using > > the > > > path monitored by the CB; > > > > > > o misconfiguration of a service/network device where the capacity > > > available is insufficient to support the current traffic > > > aggregate; > > > > > > o misconfiguration of an admission controller or traffic policer > > > that allows more traffic than expected across the path > > monitored > > > by the CB. > > > > > > According to the last point, misconfiguration of filters/policies is > > one of the > > > challenges to look at. > > > > > > > Based on all this, I'm not sure how or why a discussion of circuit > > > > breakers is needed. > > > > > > RFC 8084 represents IETF community consensus. And in my reading the > > DetNet > > > architecture falls into the type of solutions discussed in RFC 8084. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, --David > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> From: Tsv-art [mailto:tsv-art-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > > Scharf, > > > > Michael > > > > >> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:44 PM > > > > >> To: 'Jnos Farkas' > > > > >> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > >> Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf- > > detnet- > > > > architecture-08 > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > > > >> Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for > > > > sensitive > > > > >> information. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Hi Janos, > > > > >> > > > > >> Thanks for the reply. My comments are inline [ms]. > > > > >> > > > > >> I have omitted all proposed changes that work for me. > > > > >> > > > > >> Michael > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> From: Jnos Farkas > > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 10:56 AM > > > > >> To: Scharf, Michael > > > > >> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet- > > architecture.all@ietf.org; > > > > DetNet WG > > > > >> > > > > >> Subject: Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > architecture-08 > > > > >> > > > > >> Hi Michael, > > > > >> > > > > >> Thank you very much for the thorough review and good comments! > > > > >> > > > > >> Please find below in-line responses and how we plan to update > > the > > > > draft to > > > > >> resolve your comments. > > > > >> > > > > >> Best regards, > > > > >> Janos > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On 9/29/2018 12:24 AM, Michael Scharf wrote: > > > > >>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf > > > > >>> Review result: Ready with Issues > > > > >>> > > > > >>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" > > > > >>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall > > framework > > > > for > > > > >>> Deterministic Networking. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues as > > > > >>> detailed below. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Michael > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Major issues: > > > > >> [...] > > > > >> > > > > >>> DetNet > > > > >>> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices > > > > >>> transporting DetNet traffic. That assumption should be > > explicitly > > > > >>> spelt out early in the document, e.g., in the introduction. > > > > >> Actually, some form of DetNet support is required from each node > > > > that > > > > >> transports DetNet traffic. For instance, DetNet flows have to be > > > > recognized in > > > > >> order not to spoil their QoS at the minimum. > > > > >> > > > > >> [ms] I look for an clear explanation in the architecture > > document of > > > > what "some > > > > >> form of DetNet support" exactly means. For instance, is standard > > > > MPLS TE > > > > >> without any DetNet support good enough for an LSR on the IP/MPLS > > > > path used > > > > >> by DetNet traffic, or not? As an example, when I read the > > following > > > > paragraph in > > > > >> draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-mpls-01 ... > > > > >> > > > > >> Transit nodes are normal MPLS Label Switching Routers > > (LSRs). > > > > They > > > > >> are generally unaware of the special requirements of DetNet > > > > flows, > > > > >> although they need to provide traffic engineering services > > and > > > > proper > > > > >> QoS to the LSPs associated with DetNet flows to enhance the > > > > prospect > > > > >> of the LSPs meeting the DetNet service requirements. Some > > > > >> implementations of transit nodes may be DetNet aware, but > > such > > > > nodes > > > > >> just support the DetNet transport layer. > > > > >> > > > > >> ... I could maybe assume that actually there can be "transit > > nodes" > > > > that do not > > > > >> require *any* sort of DetNet support or DetNet awareness. Is > > that > > > > correct? I > > > > >> think the architecture document has to be clear on such > > fundamental > > > > questions. > > > > >> > > > > >> The Introduction could be extended to clarify, e.g., the third > > > > paragraph: > > > > >> > > > > >> OLD: > > > > >> A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. That > > is, > > > > the presence of > > > > >> DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the > > benefits > > > > offered > > > > >> DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, prevent > > existing > > > > QoS > > > > >> mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, subject to the > > > > bandwidth > > > > >> required for the DetNet flows. A single source-destination pair > > can > > > > trade both > > > > >> DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End systems and applications need > > not > > > > >> instantiate special interfaces for DetNet flows. Networks are > > not > > > > restricted to > > > > >> certain topologies; connectivity is not restricted. Any > > application > > > > that generates > > > > >> a data flow that can be usefully characterized as having a > > maximum > > > > bandwidth > > > > >> should be able to take advantage of DetNet, as long as the > > necessary > > > > resources > > > > >> can be reserved. Reservations can be made by the application > > itself, > > > > via network > > > > >> management, by an application???s controller, or by other means, > > e.g., > > > > a dynamic > > > > >> control plane (e.g., [RFC2205]). > > > > >> > > > > >> NEW: > > > > >> A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. That > > is, > > > > the presence of > > > > >> DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the > > benefits > > > > offered > > > > >> DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, prevent > > existing > > > > QoS > > > > >> mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, subject to the > > > > bandwidth > > > > >> required for the DetNet flows. A single source-destination pair > > can > > > > trade both > > > > >> DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End systems and applications need > > not > > > > >> instantiate special interfaces for DetNet flows. Networks are > > not > > > > restricted to > > > > >> certain topologies; connectivity is not restricted. Any > > application > > > > that generates > > > > >> a data flow that can be usefully characterized as having a > > maximum > > > > bandwidth > > > > >> should be able to take advantage of DetNet, as long as the > > necessary > > > > resources > > > > >> can be reserved. Reservations can be made by the application > > itself, > > > > via network > > > > >> management, by an application???s controller, or by other means, > > e.g., > > > > a dynamic > > > > >> control plane (e.g., [RFC2205]). Network nodes supporting DetNet > > > > flows have to > > > > >> implement some of the DetNet capabilities (not necessarily all) > > in > > > > order to treat > > > > >> DetNet flows such that their QoS requirements are met. > > > > >> > > > > >> [ms] To me, the last sentence is not clear. Does "some of the > > DetNet > > > > capabilities > > > > >> (not necessarily all)" include e.g. vanilla traffic engineering? > > For > > > > instance, if a > > > > >> network node can ensure that the QoS requirements are met by > > > > leveraging > > > > >> existing standardized TE without any additional DetNet > > awareness, is > > > > this > > > > >> enough for deploying DetNet? Or does this node have to implement > > > > additional > > > > >> DetNet-specific functionality? Specifically, please explain if > > an > > > > existing DetNet- > > > > >> unaware router on the path taken by DetNet traffic can be used > > to > > > > forward > > > > >> DetNet traffic, or if it is mandatory that any router forwarding > > > > DetNet traffic > > > > >> indeed implements new capabilities specific to DetNet. In the > > latter > > > > case, I think > > > > >> the document would need to discuss incremental deployment > > strategies > > > > as well. > > > > >> > > > > >>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on > > network > > > > robustness > > > > >>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For > > instance, > > > > >>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet > > > > replication could > > > > >>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How > > does > > > > the DetNet > > > > >>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. > > if > > > > the topology > > > > >>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be > > > > solved by > > > > >>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are > > > > corresponding > > > > >>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that > > filters > > > > and policers > > > > >>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still assumes > > > > consistently > > > > >>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And > > Section > > > > 3.3.2 is > > > > >>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" > > > > without stating > > > > >>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further > > > > solutions, such as > > > > >>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not > > discussed? > > > > >> Security issues and considerations are addressed by the DetNet > > > > Security > > > > >> draft: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet- > > security. > > > > >> Reference to the DetNet Security draft will be added. > > > > >> > > > > >> There will be a document dedicated to Operations, Administration > > and > > > > >> Maintenance (OAM), which will address operational, > > misconfiguration, > > > > and > > > > >> failure detection issues. > > > > >> > > > > >> The topology changes have to be solved by the control plane, > > either > > > > >> centralized or distributed. > > > > >> > > > > >> The filters and policers described in Section 3.3.2 also provide > > > > >> robustness by eliminating/mitigating traffic coming from > > > > malfunctioning > > > > >> devices. > > > > >> > > > > >> RFC2475 is recommended for traffic policing functions to > > increase > > > > >> robustness. > > > > >> > > > > >> The text in Section 3.3.2 could be made clearer, e.g., by > > updating > > > > the > > > > >> first paragraph to: > > > > >> > > > > >> OLD: > > > > >> One key to building robust real-time systems is to reduce the > > > > >> infinite variety of possible failures to a number that can be > > > > >> analyzed with reasonable confidence. DetNet aids in the process > > by > > > > >> allowing for filters and policers to detect DetNet packets > > received > > > > >> on the wrong interface, or at the wrong time, or in too great a > > > > >> volume, and to then take actions such as discarding the > > offending > > > > >> packet, shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting > > down > > > > the > > > > >> offending interface. > > > > >> > > > > >> NEW: > > > > >> Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of > > possible > > > > >> failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet > > network to > > > > >> detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, or > > at > > > > >> the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, filters and > > > > >> policers can take action to discard offending packets or flows, > > or > > > > >> trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting > > down > > > > >> the offending interface. > > > > >> > > > > >> [ms] That does not address my concern. As I wrote already, I > > believe > > > > this > > > > >> document has to discuss the applicability of circuit breakers > > > > according to RFC > > > > >> 8084. > > > > >> > > > > >>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of > > failures > > > > to the QoS of > > > > >>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to protect > > non- > > > > DetNet parts > > > > >>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. > > Solutions > > > > to this > > > > >>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic > > (e.g., > > > > in case of > > > > >>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not discussed > > at > > > > all in the document? > > > > >> Actually the regulation of DetNet traffic by polices and filters > > > > >> protects both other DetNet traffic and non-DetNet traffic. > > > > >> > > > > >> Section 3.3.1 could be extended to make it clear, e.g., by > > extending > > > > the > > > > >> last paragraph: > > > > >> > > > > >> OLD: > > > > >> Ideally, the net effect of the presence of DetNet flows in a > > network > > > > >> on the non-DetNet packets is primarily a reduction in the > > available > > > > >> bandwidth. > > > > >> > > > > >> NEW: > > > > >> Traffic policing functions (e.g. [RFC2475]) are used to avoid > > the > > > > >> starvation of non-DetNet traffic. Thus, the net effect of the > > > > presence > > > > >> of DetNet flows in a network on non-DetNet flows is primarily a > > > > >> reduction in the available bandwidth. > > > > >> > > > > >> [ms] I believe a stronger wording is needed, e.g. along the > > lines of > > > > "a DetNet > > > > >> deployment must avoid starvation of non-DetNet traffic ...". > > > > >> > > > > >> [...] > > > > >> > > > > >>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational RFC > > on > > > > IRTF stream, > > > > >>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., > > > > "planes"). This is > > > > >>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should > > probably > > > > refer to > > > > >>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC 7491, > > > > albeit there is > > > > >>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, > > Section > > > > 4.4 is by and > > > > >>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not specific > > to > > > > DetNet. > > > > >>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the concepts > > > > introduced in > > > > >>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology or > > > > discuss > > > > >>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly > > at > > > > the end that > > > > >>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet > > > > architecture. It is not > > > > >>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 > > could > > > > be removed > > > > >>> from the document without impacting the rest of the document. > > > > >> The document should point out to traffic engineering and > > centralized > > > > >> control plane aspects, so it is better to keep Section 4.4. > > > > >> > > > > >> RFC 7426 provides the full picture of SDN architecture, which > > needs > > > > to > > > > >> be referred from the DetNet architecture. No other RFC provides > > such > > > > >> detailed picture. Therefore, we need to keep the reference to > > RFC > > > > 7426, > > > > >> which is an informative reference. > > > > >> > > > > >> [ms] I'll leave that up to the IESG to decide whether an IETF > > > > proposed standard > > > > >> should build an architecture based on research work instead of, > > say, > > > > documents > > > > >> with IETF consensus. As a side note, I believe the understanding > > in > > > > industry what > > > > >> "SDN architecture" really means and how it is implemented may > > have > > > > evolved > > > > >> since publication of IRTF RFC 7426, which was published in Jan. > > > > 2015. For > > > > >> instance, IRTF RFC 7426 does not discuss the implications of > > segment > > > > routing, > > > > >> BGP-LS, and other recent IETF techniques. And, based on what I > > read > > > > in the > > > > >> DetNet architecture, I believe DetNet could actually be > > implemented > > > > without > > > > >> any "SDN architecture", e.g. by distributed traffic engineering. > > As > > > > a result, I don't > > > > >> even understand the need to discuss "SDN". > > > > >> > > > > >> [ms] For the record: As TSV-ART reviewer, I question whether > > IRTF > > > > RFC 7426 is > > > > >> indeed an appropriate reference, I have doubts that IRTF RFC > > 7426 is > > > > really up- > > > > >> to-date, and I am concerned about the content quality of section > > > > 4.4, e.g., > > > > >> regarding the lack of alignment with the rest of the document. > > The > > > > IESG will > > > > >> certainly have a better understanding that than me how to deal > > with > > > > such topics. > > > > >> > > > > >> The related work in TEAS is already referred to. > > > > >> > > > > >> [...] > > > > >> > > > > >>> Minor issues: > > > > >>> > > > > >>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" > > > > >>> > > > > >>> The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in the > > IETF, > > > > e.g. > > > > >>> originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. > > "transport > > > > network" is > > > > >>> used in the IETF for different technologies in different areas, > > I > > > > think the > > > > >>> term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer to > > > > transport > > > > >>> protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find the > > term > > > > "DetNet > > > > >>> transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion is > > easy to > > > > see e.g. > > > > >>> in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as per > > RFC > > > > 1122) sits > > > > >>> on top of "transport". > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Based on the document it also may be solution/implementation > > > > specific > > > > >> whether > > > > >>> the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate protocol > > layer > > > > compared > > > > >>> to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me why > > the > > > > word > > > > >>> "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination "transport > > > > layer". > > > > >>> > > > > >>> To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport protocol") > > > > should be > > > > >>> used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with RFC > > 1122. > > > > But this is > > > > >>> probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. > > > > >> "transport" is used here as in "packet transport networks" not > > as > > > > OSI L4 > > > > >> transport. > > > > >> > > > > >> [ms] At the risk of stating the obvious: The relevant section of > > RFC > > > > 1122 defining > > > > >> "transport layer" is entitled by "The Internet Architecture". > > And, > > > > according e.g. > > > > >> to RFC 5921, "packet transport network" is a term defined by > > ITU-T. > > > > In an IETF > > > > >> document, I believe IETF terminology should be used. > > > > >> > > > > >> I suggest to use the terms "DetNet transport sub-layer" and > > "DetNet > > > > >> service sub-layer" throughout the document, which would > > hopefully > > > > avoid > > > > >> confusion. > > > > >> > > > > >> [ms] "DetNet transport sub-layer" somewhat solves my concern of > > > > avoiding the > > > > >> expression "transport layer". To really avoid confusion, I > > believe > > > > it would be > > > > >> better to avoid the ambiguous term "transport" altogether. But > > I > > > > will be fine if > > > > >> all DetNet documents consistently avoid the term "transport > > layer". > > > > >> > > > > >> Michael > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > >> Tsv-art mailing list > > > > >> Tsv-art@ietf.org > > > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > detnet mailing list > > > > > detnet@ietf.org > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Tsv-art mailing list > > > > Tsv-art@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Wed Nov 14 20:24:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) 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AQHUfACw9Y6tWkDlI0mXp06Kopix06VP0KwA//+o1tiAAAGYoIAA8kiAgAA0BoA= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 04:23:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <8D171B16-FD22-46CD-9D2B-24070F2DC433@cisco.com> <6EDA7130-E283-4D72-B9DD-0211BB12E763@cisco.com> <0C722534-D42B-4822-8E64-354DAD00BB03@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C25D5530273F4CDD83A14A0CBB867067ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.15, xch-rcd-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-6.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 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detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F54D1271FF for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 21:15:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X4BK_0a1asnF for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 21:15:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from dggwg11-dlp.huawei.com (lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com [185.176.76.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45E9712426A for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 21:15:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrpml402-hub.exmail.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.66]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id BC16789DBB07E37E8331; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:15:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHRPML504-MBX.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.5.41]) by lhrpml402-hub.exmail.huawei.com ([10.201.4.206]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:15:48 +0000 From: Norman Finn To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Black, David" CC: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] pulling packets Thread-Index: AdR7DhnsUHHFp74PReiHX8huqYyB6AA4VCxgAAQZfzAAADgSgAAMVuYAAAGtTYAAADL2gAARtm2AAAamwQAAAZddLA== Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:15:48 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F80171E775@lhrpml504-mbx.exmail.huawei.com> References: <0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <8D171B16-FD22-46CD-9D2B-24070F2DC433@cisco.com> <6EDA7130-E283-4D72-B9DD-0211BB12E763@cisco.com> <0C722534-D42B-4822-8E64-354DAD00BB03@cisco.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.7.94] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F80171E775lhrpml504mbxexm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:15:58 -0000 --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F80171E775lhrpml504mbxexm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1. I think there is a use for a "Sort of like TCP, but is suitable for use= as a DetNet flow". 2. You can run a number of TCP flows over a pipe offering the DetNet servic= e. More flows will use more of the bandwidth. Leftover bandwidth is avail= able to best effort flows, but not to other DetNet flows. This is just lik= e TCP over an Ethernet. Very useful when allocating "hard" partitioned ban= dwidth. 2. You can run one TCP flow as a DetNet flow. You can run several of them.= Each flow wastes approx. 25% of its bandwidth, which is not reservable by= other DetNet flows. On the other hand, you can control exactly how much b= andwidth is available to each TCP flow, and all of the unused bandwidth is = available to best-effort TCP flows. This seems theoretically useful, but I= 'm not sure that the extra cost over DSCP is worth the difference in servic= e compared to DSCP. -- Norm ________________________________ From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Pascal Thubert (pthuber= t) [pthubert@cisco.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 8:23 PM To: Black, David Cc: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong); detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets Hello David Please see below Le 15 nov. 2018 =E0 08:13, Black, David > a =E9crit : Pascal, Thanks for the response =96 I want to follow up on some of Xuesong=92s comm= ents that may shed some light on the lower layer pull functionality: > 3. TCP can=92t be used for DetNet, because TCP tries to find the =93fair= bandwidth=94 for the flows and it makes the flow rate changes > all the time, while the sending rate of DetNet is supposed to be constant= , and every packet should show up in an expected time slot; Not exactly =96 in this =93game=94, DetNet gets to go first, and enforces t= he time slot behavior. TCP sees what DetNet provides =96 it looks like a n= etwork path with a max bandwidth that is limited by the reservation for the= DetNet flow, a rather stable round-trip-time and pacing/shaping behavior (= on the originating host, preferably). There are some details to be worked = out around what happens when TCP tries to overrun the DetNet flow reservati= on, as that could build up a large queue on the host, but if the reservatio= n is sized to be larger than the TCP throughput, TCP should work as the hos= t queue should drain. I think Bob Briscoe presented on Sunday and very clearly what happens with= classical TCP - a seesaw pattern that fails to utilize the available bandw= idth. This coincides with my own observations when I implemented CIR for IB= M=92s frame relay box a few years back. Bob also presented the benefits of DC TCP in that space. I understand that = his point matches your words in a corridor discussion we had. I also unders= tand that in the case of the fixed bandwidth. A rate adaptation is a comple= x and undesired function. Attempting to achieve the service layer rate enforcement with a window-base= d operation confuses a function that we have and its derivative that we wan= t, and causes additional buffers and latency between the egress of the wind= ow based service layer and the ingress of the load enforcer - the first det= net router. Conclusion is that we want a simple rate enforcement function in the layer-= 4 =AB detnet transport =AB . Could we call it dettrans to avoid confusion ? Sorry I=92m embarking now... Take care Pascal > 4. UDP can=92t be used for DetNet, because there is no rate control. If = the talker sends the packets in the wrong pattern, UDP can do nothing. That would be a =93feature=94 here :-) because DetNet is taking care of the= details ;-). In contrast, TCP-like retransmit behavior may not be what=92= s wanted in a hard real-time system. > 5. So we need =93DetNet transport layer=94, which can :a. Send the packe= t in a deterministic pattern; b. If anything goes wrong, make it go back to= the correct pattern. Every DetNet router does this. A pacer/shaper should deal nicely with packe= ts being sent in the wrong pattern. This is preferably located on the ori= ginating host, as that=92s a better place to build a queue than the first h= op switch/router. Again if the reservation is sized to be larger than the = traffic, the originating host queue should drain. In the reverse direction, where the traffic (TCP or UDP or =85) exceeds the= reservation, something on the host needs to figure out what=92s going on i= n order to throttle TCP and/or the application, as the usual network conges= tion feedback techniques (loss, ECN CE marks) don=92t work for DetNet traff= ic. This is where a network pull mechanism may be a useful part of the so= lution, as getting the application to understand that it=92s overrunning it= s reservation is preferable to having the DetNet network start dropping (o= r CE-marking) packets if a DetNet flow overruns its reservation in order to= get the application or transport protocol (e.g., TCP) to slow down. As for the notion that PREOF for DetNet IP is a DetNet =93transport protoco= l=94 =96 I suppose that=92s true, but I would suggest use of DetNet =93PREO= F tunnel protocol=94 as clearer terminology. Thanks, --David From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 11:46 AM To: Black, David Cc: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong); detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Please read PFC for priority flow control; I did too much wireless this week :) Regards, Pascal Le 14 nov. 2018 =E0 23:41, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > a =E9crit : I agree with the bottom line David, that was the intention; though I=92m unclear if and where I can publish the= lower layer pull thing. I wrote it as an eye opener, hoping people would s= ee the issue. I retain Lou=92s suggestion that PCFPFC is a beginning for it= though it is just a faucet with no control of what goes though when we wan= t a just in time per packet pull. For your points below, I mentioned IS-IS as an illustration that we can hav= e a same operation at both layers, that is not so unusual. I=92m not saying= detnet need IS-IS, that was really not the point. As for the functions I just point out the likeness to illustrate that the d= etnet service layer is akin though far from identical to existing variation= s of TCP. Seems we agree on this likeness. I do not read that you oppose my= conclusion that the detnet service layer can be implemented as a detnet = =AB transport protocol =BB. For now I need to read on the links you suggested. Many thanks for all this! Pascal Le 14 nov. 2018 =E0 22:52, Black, David > a =E9crit : Bottom Line: I would suggest focusing discussion of a DetNet =93transport = protocol=94 on what has to be done via tunnels to make PREOF work for the I= P solution (data plane), and would suggest using separate drafts for this a= nd local loop traffic shaping. Details inline =85 Thanks, --David From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 4:59 AM To: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) Cc: detnet@ietf.org; Black, David Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive = information. Typos below, some thanks to my intelligent smart phone, and some to confuse= d-me. Please read: All in all, this tells me that the detnet service layer operates at layer 4 Regards, Pascal Le 14 nov. 2018 =E0 16:53, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > a =E9crit : Hello Xuesong: We do layers so as to communalise services so every applications does not n= eed to reinvent its own. The fact that every industrial application that adaptateur from serial but = to IP had to implement a jitter elimination buffer is an indication that we= failed to provide just that at a lower layer. Same goes for voice and video. But didn=92t you see it on occasions? Those = jitter elimination techniques create a latency in the discussion or a delay= in the tv stream that you can actually observe. [David>] When things work, jitter elimination is common behavior. When the= y don=92t work, i.e., something doesn=92t arrive in time, both retransmit b= ehavior and reaction to missing data are app-specific. Now let us look at the detnet service layer and compare with traditional La= yer 4 functions. The service layer provides a flow control, in this particular case a rate-= based one. This is similar to functionality found in DC-TCP or in a long go= ne past, IBM=92s Rapid Transport Protocol, though we probably need only a s= implified version of that. [David>] It=92s important to distinguish flow control, which can be provide= on a link-by-link basis from congestion control, which is a superset of fl= ow control and can only be provided end-to-end. As DetNet eliminates all c= ongestion, congestion control is not required. Specific example =96 DC-TCP= is driven by ECN congestion signals (CE marks) coming back from the networ= k, but if a DetNet node ever marks a DetNet packet as CE, something has gon= e seriously awry. The service layer performs reordering and duplication elimination functions= . TCP does that too. [David>] Yes =85 but =85 TCP elimination of duplicate packets is intended o= nly to deal with =93stupid network tricks=94 =85 The service layer distributes packets and replicas over multiple paths (det= net transports). There=92s a hint of that in MP-TCP though we need a powerf= ul addition for replication and coding. [David>] DetNet differs because the replication and distribution happen at = nodes in the network, not at end systems. For any TCP-like protocol (relia= ble delivery with congestion control), packet duplication is always a manif= estation of a network =93bug,=94 i.e., divergence from ideal network behavi= or. For the RE in DetNet PREOF, packet duplication is a network =93feature= =94 ;-). As of right now, packet duplication and elimination, plus associa= ted reordering (PREOF) is not part of the IP solution =96 an additional en= capsulation would likely be needed to support that functionality, and the r= esult which would look a lot like a DetNet transport tunnel between nodes i= n the DetNet network. If anyone wants to work on this, reading draft-ietf-= intarea-tunnels is RECOMMENDED. The detnet service layer is above the detnet transport layer which happens = to be layer 3. All in all, this tells me that the detnet transport service layer operates = at layer 4. I agree with you that there is an exact same need for TSN. Just like there = is a need for IS-IS at both layers. [David>] Many of the IP networks over which DetNet operates will not be usi= ng IS-IS for IP (layer 3) routing =96 there are a number of alternatives. The IEEE may very well provide the same features in the talker, and we may = very well be successful at sharing specifications just like we did for IS-I= S. But for us I see the detnet service layer packaged as a Layer 4 that the= rest of the IETF will call a Transport. Which makes the name collision ver= y unfortunate, by the way. [David>] Bottom Line: I would suggest focusing discussion of a DetNet =93t= ransport protocol=94 on what has to be done via tunnels to make PREOF work = for the IP solution (data plane), and would suggest using separate drafts f= or this and local loop traffic shaping. Note that my draft also discusses a L2 tokenized loop to avoid the buffer b= loat at the detnet ingress, which is the piece that is analogous to the sol= ution shown in the video. Take care, Pascal Le 14 nov. 2018 =E0 14:58, Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) > a =E9crit : Dear Pascal, I consider the problem of =93DetNet transport layer=94 all over again, and = finally I make myself confused. So I send this email to search for help. Pl= ease correct me if you find anything wrong below: 1. TSN doesn=92t need transport layer, because the talker and listene= r are TSN aware, and they can send the packets in some particular time slot= based on the traffic specification; 2. DetNet does need transport layer, because talker and listener are = not under control; 3. TCP can=92t be used for DetNet , because TCP tries to find the =93= fair bandwidth=94 for the flows and it makes the flow rate changes all the = time, while the sending rate of DetNet is supposed to be constant, and ever= y packet should show up in an expected time slot; 4. UDP can=92t be used for DetNet, because there is no rate control. = If the talker sends the packets in the wrong pattern, UDP can do nothing. 5. So we need =93DetNet transport layer=94, which can :a. Send the pa= cket in a deterministic pattern; b. If anything goes wrong, make it go back= to the correct pattern. 6. This, finally, makes the talker =93DetNet aware=94(especially poin= t a above), which is just the same as what happens in TSN. If this logic chain works, what we actually requires is just a DetNet talke= r rather than a new transport layer. Best Regards Xuesong From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (= pthubert) Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:10 PM To: detnet@ietf.org; Black, David > Subject: [Detnet] pulling packets Dear all This video https://youtu.be/BO0QhaxBRr0 has a great illustration of the UNI= packet pull method that we use in section =935.1. Local Loop Flow Control= =94 of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-01 = to pull packets from the detnet unaware host from the detnet ingress box. T= he problem for detnet is that shaping in the detnet ingress can create bloa= t and uncontrolled end to end latency so we want to control the maximum amo= unt of pending frames to keep the detnet ingress busy and push back to the = L4/5 for anything above that. I hope you=92ll love the video as much as I did; Pascal _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F80171E775lhrpml504mbxexm_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
1. I think there  is a use for a "Sort of like TCP, but is s= uitable for use as a DetNet flow".

2. You can run a number of TCP flows over a pipe offering the DetNet s= ervice.  More flows will use more of the bandwidth.  Leftover ban= dwidth is available to best effort flows, but not to other DetNet flows.&nb= sp; This is just like TCP over an Ethernet.  Very useful when allocating "hard" partitioned bandwidth.

2. You can run one TCP flow as a DetNet flow.  You can run severa= l of them.  Each flow wastes approx. 25% of its bandwidth, which is no= t reservable by other DetNet flows.  On the other hand, you can contro= l exactly how much bandwidth is available to each TCP flow, and all of the unused bandwidth is available to best-effort TCP = flows.  This seems theoretically useful, but I'm not sure that the ext= ra cost over DSCP is worth the difference in service compared to DSCP.

-- Norm

From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on= behalf of Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [pthubert@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 8:23 PM
To: Black, David
Cc: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong); detnet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets

Hello David 

Please see below 

Pascal,

 

Thanks for the respons= e =96 I want to follow up on some of Xuesong=92s comments that may shed som= e light on the lower layer pull functionality:

 

> 3.  TCP can= =92t be used for DetNet, because TCP tries to find the =93fair bandwidth=94= for the flows and it makes the flow rate changes
> all the time, while the sending rate of DetNet is supposed to be const= ant, and every packet should show up in an expected time slot;

 

Not exactly =96 in thi= s =93game=94, DetNet gets to go first, and enforces the time slot behavior.=   TCP sees what DetNet provides =96 it looks like a network path with = a max bandwidth that is limited by the reservation for the DetNet flow, a rather stable round-trip-time and pacing/shaping be= havior (on the originating host, preferably).  There are some details = to be worked out around what happens when TCP tries to overrun the DetNet f= low reservation, as that could build up a large queue on the host, but if the reservation is sized to be larger= than the TCP throughput, TCP should work as the host queue should drain.


I think Bob Briscoe presented  on Sunday and very clearly what ha= ppens with classical TCP - a seesaw pattern that fails to utilize the avail= able bandwidth. This coincides with my own observations when I implemented = CIR for IBM=92s frame relay box a few years back. 

Bob also presented the benefits of DC TCP in that space. I understand = that his point matches your words in a corridor discussion we had. I also u= nderstand that in the case of the fixed bandwidth. A rate adaptation is a c= omplex and undesired function.

Attempting to achieve the service layer rate enforcement with a window= -based operation confuses a function that we have and its derivative that w= e want, and causes additional buffers and latency between the egress of the= window based service layer and the ingress of the load enforcer - the first detnet router.

Conclusion is that we want a simple rate enforcement function in the l= ayer-4 =AB detnet transport =AB . Could we call it dettrans to avoid confus= ion ?

Sorry I=92m embarking now...

Take care

Pascal 



 

> 4.  UDP can=92t be used for DetNet, because there is no rate= control. If the talker sends the packets in the wrong pattern, UDP can do = nothing.

That would be a =93fea= ture=94 here :-) because DetNet is taking care of the details ;-).  In= contrast, TCP-like retransmit behavior may not be what=92s wanted in a har= d real-time system.

 

> 5.  So we need =93DetNet transport layer=94, whic= h can :a. Send the packet in a deterministic pattern; b. If anything goes w= rong, make it go back to the correct pattern.

Every DetNet router do= es this. A pacer/shaper should deal nicely with packets being sent in the w= rong pattern.   This is preferably located on the originating hos= t, as that=92s a better place to build a queue than the first hop switch/router.  Again if the reservation is sized to be= larger than the traffic, the originating host queue should drain.

 

In the reverse directi= on, where the traffic (TCP or UDP or =85) exceeds the reservation, somethin= g on the host needs to figure out what=92s going on in order to throttle TC= P and/or the application, as the usual network congestion feedback techniques (loss, ECN CE marks) don=92t work for DetNe= t traffic.   This is where a network pull mechanism may be a usef= ul part of the solution, as getting the application to understand that it= =92s overrunning its reservation is preferable to having  the DetNet network start dropping (or CE-marking) packets if = a DetNet flow overruns its reservation in order to get the application or t= ransport protocol (e.g., TCP) to slow down.

 

As for the notion that= PREOF for DetNet IP is a DetNet =93transport protocol=94 =96 I suppose tha= t=92s true, but I would suggest use of DetNet =93PREOF tunnel protocol=94 a= s clearer terminology. 

 

Thanks, --David=

 

From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mai= lto:pthubert@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 11:46 AM
To: Black, David
Cc: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong); detnet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets

 

[EXTERNAL EMAIL]

Please read PFC for priority flow control;

I did too much wirele= ss this week :)

 

Regards,

 

Pascal


Le 14 nov. 2018 =E0 23:41, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@= cisco.com> a =E9crit :

I agree with the bottom line David, 

 

that was the intentio= n; though I=92m unclear if and where I can publish the lower layer pull thi= ng. I wrote it as an eye opener, hoping people would see the issue. I retai= n Lou=92s suggestion that PCFPFC is a beginning for it though it is just a faucet with no contr= ol of what goes though when we want a just in time per packet pull.

For your points below, I mentioned IS-IS as an illus= tration that we can have a same operation at both layers, that is not so un= usual. I=92m not saying detnet need IS-IS, that was really not the point.

 

As for the functions I just point out the likeness t= o illustrate that the detnet service layer is akin though far from identica= l to existing variations of TCP. Seems we agree on this likeness. I do not = read that you oppose my conclusion that the detnet service layer can be implemented as a detnet =AB transport= protocol =BB.

 

For now I need to read on the links you suggested.

 

Many thanks for all this!

 

Pascal


Le 14 nov. 2018 =E0 22:52, Black, David <David.Black@dell.com= > a =E9crit :

Bottom Line:  I w= ould suggest focusing discussion of a DetNet =93transport protocol=94 on wh= at has to be done via tunnels to make PREOF work for the IP solution (data = plane), and would suggest using separate drafts for this and local loop traffic shaping. 

 

Details inline =85

 

Thanks, --David=

 

From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mai= lto:pthubert@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 4:59 AM
To: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org; Black, David
Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets

 

[EXTERNAL E= MAIL]
Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive = information.

Typos below, some thanks to my intelligent smart pho= ne, and some to confused-me. 

 

Please read:

All in all, this tells m= e that the detnet service layer operates at layer 4

 

Regards,

 

Pascal


Le 14 nov. 2018 =E0 16:53, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@= cisco.com> a =E9crit :

Hello Xuesong:

 

We do layers so as to communalise services so every = applications does not need to reinvent its own.

 

The fact that every industrial application that adap= tateur from serial but to IP had to implement a jitter elimination buffer i= s an indication that we failed to provide just that at a lower layer. =

 

Same goes for voice and video. But didn=92t you see = it on occasions? Those jitter elimination techniques create a latency in th= e discussion or a delay in the tv stream that you can actually observe.

[David>] When= things work, jitter elimination is common behavior.  When they don=92= t work, i.e., something doesn=92t arrive in time, both retransmit behavior = and reaction to missing data are app-specific.

Now let us look at the detnet service layer and compare with traditional La= yer 4 functions.

 

 The service layer provides a flow control, in = this particular case a rate-based one. This is similar to functionality fou= nd in DC-TCP or in a long gone past, IBM=92s Rapid Transport Protocol, thou= gh we probably need only a simplified version of that.

[David>] It= =92s important to distinguish flow control, which can be provide on a link-= by-link basis from congestion control, which is a superset of flow control = and can only be provided end-to-end.  As DetNet eliminates all congestion, congestion control is not required.  Speci= fic example =96 DC-TCP is driven by ECN congestion signals (CE marks) comin= g back from the network, but if a DetNet node ever marks a DetNet packet as= CE, something has gone seriously awry.

The service layer performs reordering and duplication elimination functions= . TCP does that too.

[David>] Yes = =85 but =85 TCP elimination of duplicate packets is intended only to deal w= ith =93stupid network tricks=94 =85

 

The service layer distributes packets and replicas o= ver multiple paths (detnet transports). There=92s a hint of that in MP-TCP = though we need a powerful addition for replication and coding.

[David>] DetN= et differs because the replication and distribution happen at nodes in the = network, not at end systems.  For any TCP-like protocol (reliable deli= very with congestion control), packet duplication is always a manifestation of a network =93bug,=94 i.e., divergence from id= eal network behavior.  For the RE in DetNet PREOF, packet duplication = is a network =93feature=94 ;-).  As of right now, packet duplication a= nd elimination, plus associated reordering (PREOF)  is not part of the IP solution =96 an additional encapsulation would= likely be needed to support that functionality, and the result which would= look a lot like a DetNet transport tunnel between nodes in the DetNet netw= ork.  If anyone wants to work on this, reading draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels is RECOMMENDED.

 

The detnet service layer is above the detnet transpo= rt layer which happens to be layer 3.

 

All in all, this tells me that the detnet transport s= ervice layer operates at layer 4.

 

I agree with you that there is an exact same need fo= r TSN. Just like there is a need for IS-IS at both layers.

[David>] Many= of the IP networks over which DetNet operates will not be using IS-IS for = IP (layer 3) routing =96 there are a number of alternatives.=

 

The IEEE may very well provide the same features in = the talker, and we may very well be successful at sharing specifications ju= st like we did for IS-IS. But for us I see the detnet service layer package= d as a Layer 4 that the rest of the IETF will call a Transport. Which makes the name collision very unfortunat= e, by the way.

[David>] Bott= om Line:  I would suggest focusing discussion of a DetNet =93transport= protocol=94 on what has to be done via tunnels to make PREOF work for the = IP solution (data plane), and would suggest using separate drafts for this and local loop traffic shaping.

 

Note that my draft also discusses a L2 tokenized loo= p to avoid the buffer bloat at the detnet ingress, which is the piece that = is analogous to the solution shown in the video.

 

Take care,

 

Pascal


Le 14 nov. 2018 =E0 14:58, Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) <geng= xuesong@huawei.com> a =E9crit :

Dear Pascal,

 

I consider the problem of =93DetNet transport layer=94 all over again,= and finally I make myself confused. So I send this email to search for hel= p. Please correct me if you find anything wrong below:

1.&= nbsp;      TSN doesn=92t need transport layer, because the talker and listener ar= e TSN aware, and they can send the packets in some particular time slot bas= ed on the traffic specification;

2.&= nbsp;      DetNet does need transport layer, because talker and listener are not = under control;

3.&= nbsp;      TCP can=92t be used for DetNet , because TCP tries to find the =93fair= bandwidth=94 for the flows and it makes the flow rate changes all the time= , while the sending rate of DetNet is supposed to be constant, and every packet should= show up in an expected time slot;

4.&= nbsp;      UDP can=92t be used for DetNet, because there is no rate control. If t= he talker sends the packets in the wrong pattern, UDP can do nothing.

5.&= nbsp;      So we need =93DetNet transport layer=94, which can :a. Send the packet= in a deterministic pattern; b. If anything goes wrong, make it go back to = the correct pattern.

6.&= nbsp;      This, finally, makes the talker =93DetNet aware=94(especially point a = above), which is just the same as what happens in TSN.

 

If this logic chain works, what we actually requires is just a DetNet = talker rather than a new transport layer.

 

 

Best Regards

Xuesong

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bou= nces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:10 PM
To: detnet@ietf.org; Black, David <David.Black@dell.com&g= t;
Subject: [Detnet] pulling packets

 

Dear all

 

This video https://youtu.be/BO0QhaxBRr0 has a great illustration of the UNI packet= pull method that we use in section =935.1.  Local Loop Flow Control= =94 of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-01 to = pull packets from the detnet unaware host from the detnet ingress box. The = problem for detnet is that shaping in the detnet ingress can create bloat a= nd uncontrolled end to end latency so we want to control the maximum amount of pending frames to keep the det= net ingress busy and push back to the L4/5 for anything above that.

 

I hope you=92ll love the video as much as I did;

 

Pascal

_______________________________________________=
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

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Combining the Michael's email and David's add-on to that. Some comments, suggestions are in line, marked . Best regards, Janos ps: In this month, I have difficulties with accessing emails. Sorry=20 about that. I trust that the WG, including co-authors. continue the=20 discussions. On 11/4/2018 6:21 PM, Black, David wrote: > Trying to help with these Transport issues. I generally agree with Mic= hael Sharf's > first two concerns. Like Michael, I will defer to the IESG on appropri= ate use of > RFC 7426. > > In each case, I've extracted a key piece of text to try to make the poi= nt crisp ... > > [1] Minimum required level of DetNet support. > >> Does "some of the DetNet capabilities >> (not necessarily all)" include e.g. vanilla traffic engineering? For i= nstance, if a >> network node can ensure that the QoS requirements are met by leveragin= g >> existing standardized TE without any additional DetNet awareness, is t= his >> enough for deploying DetNet? Or does this node have to implement addit= ional >> DetNet-specific functionality? Specifically, please explain if an exis= ting DetNet- >> unaware router on the path taken by DetNet traffic can be used to forw= ard >> DetNet traffic, or if it is mandatory that any router forwarding DetNe= t traffic >> indeed implements new capabilities specific to DetNet. > It's the former, as indicated by this text in Section 4.2.2 (I'm workin= g from the -09 draft): > > In general, if a DetNet flow passes through one or more DetNet- > unaware network nodes between two DetNet nodes providing the DetNet= > transport sub-layer for that flow, there is a potential for > disruption or failure of the DetNet QoS. A network administrator > needs to ensure that the DetNet-unaware network nodes are configure= d > to minimize the chances of packet loss and delay, and provision > enough extra buffer space in the DetNet transit node following the > DetNet-unaware network nodes to absorb the induced latency > variations. > > Perhaps a forward reference to Section 4.2.2 from the new text in the I= ntroduction would help. David is right. Forward reference will be added. Furthermore, the last sentence will be=20 updated in order to make it clear. The suggested new text: A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. That is, the=20 presence of DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the=20 benefits offered DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases,=20 prevent existing QoS mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion,=20 subject to the bandwidth required for the DetNet flows. A single=20 source-destination pair can trade both DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End=20 systems and applications need not instantiate special interfaces for=20 DetNet flows. Networks are not restricted to certain topologies;=20 connectivity is not restricted. Any application that generates a data=20 flow that can be usefully characterized as having a maximum bandwidth=20 should be able to take advantage of DetNet, as long as the necessary=20 resources can be reserved. Reservations can be made by the application=20 itself, via network management, by an application=E2=80=99s controller, o= r by=20 other means, e.g., a dynamic control plane (e.g., [RFC2205]). Network=20 nodes of a DetNet domain, i.e., DetNet nodes have to implement DetNet=20 capabilities in order to treat DetNet flows such that their QoS=20 requirements are met. DetNet nodes can be interconnected with different=20 sub-network technologies (4.1.2), where the nodes of the subnet are not=20 DetNet aware (4.2.2). Furthermore, the the following text is suggested to be added at the end=20 of section 4.5: All nodes in a DetNet domain are expected to support the data behavior=20 required to deliver a particular DetNet service.=C2=A0 If a node itself=C2= =A0 is=20 not DetNet service aware, the DetNet nodes that are adjacent to such=20 non-DetNet aware nodes must ensure that the non-DetNet aware node is=20 provisioned=C2=A0 to appropriately support the DetNet service.=C2=A0 For = example,=20 an IEEE 802.1 TSN node may be used to interconnect DetNet aware nodes,=20 and these DetNet nodes can map DetNet flows to 802.1 TSN flows. An other = example, and MPLS-TE or TP domain may be used to interconnect DetNet=20 aware nodes, and these DetNet nodes can map DetNet flows to TE LSPs=20 which can provide the Quality of Service requirements of the DetNet=20 service. On 10/22/2018 11:44 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote: > Hi Janos, > > Thanks for the reply. My comments are inline [ms]. > > I have omitted all proposed changes that work for me. > > Michael > > > -----Original Message----- > From: J=C3=A1nos Farkas =20 > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 10:56 AM > To: Scharf, Michael > Cc:tsv-art@ietf.org;draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; DetNet= WG > Subject: Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-= 08 > > Hi Michael, > > Thank you very much for the thorough review and good comments! > > Please find below in-line responses and how we plan to update the draft= to resolve your comments. > > Best regards, > Janos > > > On 9/29/2018 12:24 AM, Michael Scharf wrote: >> Reviewer: Michael Scharf >> Review result: Ready with Issues >> >> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" >> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall framework for >> Deterministic Networking. >> >> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues as >> detailed below. >> >> Michael >> >> Major issues: > [...] > >> DetNet >> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices >> transporting DetNet traffic. That assumption should be explicitly >> spelt out early in the document, e.g., in the introduction. > Actually, some form of DetNet support is required from each node that t= ransports DetNet traffic. For instance, DetNet flows have to be recognize= d in order not to spoil their QoS at the minimum. > > [ms] I look for an clear explanation in the architecture document of wh= at "some form of DetNet support" exactly means. The key point is that each DetNet node of a DetNet MUST support DetNet. There is text making this point, e.g., the definition of DetNet domain. However, you are right, further clarifications are needed in the text.=20 See suggestions below. > For instance, is standard MPLS TE without any DetNet support good enoug= h for an LSR on the IP/MPLS path used by DetNet traffic, or not? As an ex= ample, when I read the following paragraph in draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-mp= ls-01 ... > > Transit nodes are normal MPLS Label Switching Routers (LSRs). They= > are generally unaware of the special requirements of DetNet flows, > although they need to provide traffic engineering services and prop= er > QoS to the LSPs associated with DetNet flows to enhance the prospec= t > of the LSPs meeting the DetNet service requirements. Some > implementations of transit nodes may be DetNet aware, but such node= s > just support the DetNet transport layer. > > ... I could maybe assume that actually there can be "transit nodes" tha= t do not require *any* sort of DetNet support or DetNet awareness. Is tha= t correct? It is correct. DetNet nodes of a DetNet domain can be interconnected by various subnet=20 technologies, e.g., MPLS TE. The nodes of the subnet, e.g., and LSR are=20 not DetNet aware. > I think the architecture document has to be clear on such fundamental q= uestions. See suggestions for clarification below. > The Introduction could be extended to clarify, e.g., the third paragrap= h: > > OLD: > A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. That is, the p= resence of DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the benef= its offered DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, prevent exi= sting QoS mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, subject to the b= andwidth required for the DetNet flows. A single source-destination pair = can trade both DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End systems and applications = need not instantiate special interfaces for DetNet flows. Networks are no= t restricted to certain topologies; connectivity is not restricted. Any a= pplication that generates a data flow that can be usefully characterized = as having a maximum bandwidth should be able to take advantage of DetNet,= as long as the necessary resources can be reserved. Reservations can be = made by the application itself, via network management, by an application= =E2=80=99s controller, or by other means, e.g., a dynamic control plane (= e.g., [RFC2205]). > > NEW: > A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. That is, the p= resence of DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the benef= its offered DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, prevent exi= sting QoS mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, subject to the b= andwidth required for the DetNet flows. A single source-destination pair = can trade both DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End systems and applications = need not instantiate special interfaces for DetNet flows. Networks are no= t restricted to certain topologies; connectivity is not restricted. Any a= pplication that generates a data flow that can be usefully characterized = as having a maximum bandwidth should be able to take advantage of DetNet,= as long as the necessary resources can be reserved. Reservations can be = made by the application itself, via network management, by an application= =E2=80=99s controller, or by other means, e.g., a dynamic control plane (= e.g., [RFC2205]). Network nodes supporting DetNet flows have to implement= some of the DetNet capabilities (not necessarily all) in order to treat = DetNet flows such that their QoS requirements are met. > > [ms] To me, the last sentence is not clear. Does "some of the DetNet ca= pabilities (not necessarily all)" include e.g. vanilla traffic engineerin= g? For instance, if a network node can ensure that the QoS requirements a= re met by leveraging existing standardized TE without any additional DetN= et awareness, is this enough for deploying DetNet? Or does this node have= to implement additional DetNet-specific functionality? Specifically, ple= ase explain if an existing DetNet-unaware router on the path taken by Det= Net traffic can be used to forward DetNet traffic, or if it is mandatory = that any router forwarding DetNet traffic indeed implements new capabilit= ies specific to DetNet. In the latter case, I think the document would ne= ed to discuss incremental deployment strategies as well. > >> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network >> robustness >> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For instance, >> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet replication >> could >> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How does the >> DetNet >> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. if the= >> topology >> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be solved b= y >> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are correspondi= ng >> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that filters and >> policers >> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still assumes >> consistently >> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And Section 3.3.= 2 is >> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" without >> stating >> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further solutions, >> such as >> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not discussed? > Security issues and considerations are addressed by the DetNet Security= > draft:https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-security. > Reference to the=C2=A0 DetNet Security draft will be added. > > There will be a document dedicated to Operations, Administration and > Maintenance (OAM), which will address operational, misconfiguration, an= d > failure detection issues. > > The topology changes have to be solved by the control plane, either > centralized or distributed. > > The filters and policers described in Section 3.3.2 also provide > robustness by eliminating/mitigating traffic coming from malfunctioning= > devices. > > RFC2475 is recommended for traffic policing functions to increase > robustness. > > The text=C2=A0 in Section 3.3.2 could be made clearer, e.g., by updatin= g the > first paragraph to: > > OLD: > One key to building robust real-time systems is to reduce the > infinite variety of possible failures to a number that can be > analyzed with reasonable confidence. DetNet aids in the process by > allowing for filters and policers to detect DetNet packets received > on the wrong interface, or at the wrong time, or in too great a > volume, and to then take actions such as discarding the offending > packet, shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting down the > offending interface. > > NEW: > Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of possible > failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet network to > detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, or at > the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, filters and > policers can take action to discard offending packets or flows, or > trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting down > the offending interface. > > [ms] That does not address my concern. As I wrote already, I believe th= is document has to discuss the applicability of circuit breakers accordin= g to RFC 8084. > >> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of failures to >> the QoS of >> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to protect >> non-DetNet parts >> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. Solutions to t= his >> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic (e.g., in >> case of >> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not discussed at all= >> in the >> document? > Actually the regulation of DetNet traffic by polices and filters > protects both other DetNet traffic and non-DetNet traffic. > > Section 3.3.1 could be extended to make it clear, e.g., by extending th= e > last paragraph: > > OLD: > Ideally, the net effect of the presence of DetNet flows in a network > on the non-DetNet packets is primarily a reduction in the available > bandwidth. > > NEW: > Traffic policing functions (e.g. [RFC2475]) are used to avoid the > starvation of non-DetNet traffic. Thus, the net effect of the presence > of DetNet flows in a network on non-DetNet flows is primarily a > reduction in the available bandwidth. > > [ms] I believe a stronger wording is needed, e.g. along the lines of "a= DetNet deployment must avoid starvation of non-DetNet traffic ...". Along your suggestion, the text will be updated to: Starvation of non-DetNet traffic must be avoided, e.g., by traffic policing functions (e.g. [RFC2475]). Thus, the net effect of the presence of DetNet flows in a network on non-DetNet flows is primarily a reduction in the available bandwidth. > [...] > >> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational RFC on >> IRTF stream, >> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., "planes"). >> This is >> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should probably refer= to >> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC 7491, albeit >> there is >> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, Section 4.4 >> is by and >> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not specific to DetN= et. >> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the concepts >> introduced in >> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology or discus= s >> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly at the >> end that >> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet architecture. >> It is not >> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 could be= >> removed >> from the document without impacting the rest of the document. > The document should point out to traffic engineering and centralized > control plane aspects, so it is better to keep Section 4.4. > > RFC 7426 provides the full picture of SDN architecture, which needs to > be referred from the DetNet architecture. No other RFC provides such > detailed picture. Therefore, we need to keep the reference to RFC 7426,= > which is an informative reference. > > [ms] I'll leave that up to the IESG to decide whether an IETF proposed = standard should build an architecture based on research work instead of, = say, documents with IETF consensus. As a side note, I believe the underst= anding in industry what "SDN architecture" really means and how it is imp= lemented may have evolved since publication of IRTF RFC 7426, which was p= ublished in Jan. 2015. For instance, IRTF RFC 7426 does not discuss the i= mplications of segment routing, BGP-LS, and other recent IETF techniques.= And, based on what I read in the DetNet architecture, I believe DetNet c= ould actually be implemented without any "SDN architecture", e.g. by dist= ributed traffic engineering. As a result, I don't even understand the nee= d to discuss "SDN". > > [ms] For the record: As TSV-ART reviewer, I question whether IRTF RFC 7= 426 is indeed an appropriate reference, I have doubts that IRTF RFC 7426 = is really up-to-date, and I am concerned about the content quality of sec= tion 4.4, e.g., regarding the lack of alignment with the rest of the docu= ment. The IESG will certainly have a better understanding that than me ho= w to deal with such topics. The subject is introduced with TEAS in the beginning of Section 4.4. The = architectural principles described in the DetNet architecture document=20 are according to RFC 8453 and RFC 7149, as well as RFC 7426. It would be = good to make this point clearer by adding references to RFC 8453 and RFC = 7149. As the architectural principles=C2=A0 are the same, there is no nee= d to=20 remove RFC 7426. Suggested modifications: Section 3.3: OLD: Explicit routes can be established in =C2=A0=C2=A0 various ways, e.g., with RSVP-TE [RFC3209], with Segment Ro= uting (SR) =C2=A0=C2=A0 [RFC8402], via a Software Defined Networking approach [RFC7= 426], with =C2=A0=C2=A0 IS-IS [RFC7813], etc.=C2=A0 Explicit routes are typically u= sed in MPLS TE =C2=A0=C2=A0 LSPs. NEW: Explicit routes can be established in =C2=A0=C2=A0 various ways, e.g., with RSVP-TE [RFC3209], with Segment Ro= uting (SR) =C2=A0=C2=A0 [RFC8402], via a Software Defined Networking approach [RFC7= 426], =C2=A0=C2=A0 [RFC8453], and [RFC7149], with IS-IS [RFC7813], etc. Explic= it routes =C2=A0 are typically used in MPLS TE LSPs. Section 4.4 OLD: =C2=A0=C2=A0 The Deterministic Networking architecture is thus composed = of three =C2=A0=C2=A0 planes, a (User) Application Plane, a Controller Plane, and= a Network =C2=A0=C2=A0 Plane, which echoes that of Figure 1 of Software-Defined Ne= tworking =C2=A0=C2=A0 (SDN): Layers and Architecture Terminology [RFC7426].: NEW: =C2=A0=C2=A0 The Deterministic Networking architecture is thus composed = of three =C2=A0=C2=A0 planes, a (User) Application Plane, a Controller Plane, and= a Network =C2=A0=C2=A0 Plane, which echoes that of Figure 1 of Software-Defined Ne= tworking =C2=A0=C2=A0 (SDN): Layers and Architecture Terminology [RFC7426] , and = the =C2=A0=C2=A0 Controllers identified in [RFC8453] and [RFC7149]. > =20 > The related work in TEAS is already referred to. > > [...] > >> Minor issues: >> >> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" >> >> The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in the IETF, e.g= =2E >> originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. "transport >> network" is >> used in the IETF for different technologies in different areas, I >> think the >> term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer to transport >> protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find the term "De= tNet >> transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion is easy to >> see e.g. >> in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as per RFC 1122)= >> sits >> on top of "transport". >> >> Based on the document it also may be solution/implementation specific >> whether >> the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate protocol layer >> compared >> to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me why the word= >> "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination "transport layer".= >> >> To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport protocol") should= be >> used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with RFC 1122. But >> this is >> probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. > "transport" is used here as in "packet transport networks" not as OSI L= 4 > transport. > > [ms] At the risk of stating the obvious: The relevant section of RFC 11= 22 defining "transport layer" is entitled by "The Internet Architecture".= And, according e.g. to RFC 5921, "packet transport network" is a term de= fined by ITU-T. In an IETF document, I believe IETF terminology should be= used. > > I suggest to use the terms "DetNet transport sub-layer" and "DetNet > service sub-layer" throughout the document, which would hopefully avoid= > confusion. > > [ms] "DetNet transport sub-layer" somewhat solves my concern of avoidin= g the expression "transport layer". To really avoid confusion, I believe = it would be better to avoid the ambiguous term "transport" altogether. B= ut I will be fine if all DetNet documents consistently avoid the term "tr= ansport layer". The plan is to avoid "transport layer". Based on your comment, it seems better to make the following change in=20 3.2.2.2: OLD: =C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Providing sequencing information to the packets of = a DetNet =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 compound flow.=C2=A0 This may be done by = adding a sequence number or =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 time stamp as part of DetNet, or may be i= nherent in the packet, =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 e.g., in a Layer-4 transport protocol, or= associated to other =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 physical properties such as the precise t= ime (and radio channel) =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 of reception of the packet.=C2=A0 This is= typically done once, at or =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 near the source. NEW: =C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Providing sequencing information to the packets of = a DetNet =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 compound flow.=C2=A0 This may be done by = adding a sequence number or =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 time stamp as part of DetNet, or may be i= nherent in the packet, =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 e.g., in a higher layer protocol, or asso= ciated to other =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 physical properties such as the precise t= ime (and radio channel) =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 of reception of the packet.=C2=A0 This is= typically done once, at or =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 near the source. > Michael --------------60123955E0C745E5CD77194F Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWw+DQogIDxoZWFkPg0KDQogICAgPG1ldGEgaHR0cC1lcXVpdj0iY29udGVudC10eXBl IiBjb250ZW50PSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJzZXQ9VVRGLTgiPg0KICA8L2hlYWQ+DQogIDxi b2R5IHRleHQ9IiMwMDAwMDAiIGJnY29sb3I9IiNGRkZGRkYiPg0KICAgIDxmb250IGNvbG9y 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([10.1.198.156]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 15:34:42 +0800 From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" To: "Black, David" , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" CC: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] pulling packets Thread-Index: AdR7DhnsUHHFp74PReiHX8huqYyB6AA4VCxgAAQZfzD//3ukgIAAYrcAgAANaoCAAAGYgIAAjbOA//8XhJA= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 07:34:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com>, , <8D171B16-FD22-46CD-9D2B-24070F2DC433@cisco.com> <6EDA7130-E283-4D72-B9DD-0211BB12E763@cisco.com>, , <0C722534-D42B-4822-8E64-354DAD00BB03@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.169.123] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C238129B9dggema521mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 07:34:53 -0000 --_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C238129B9dggema521mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgRGF2aWQsDQoNClRoYW5rIHlvdSBmb3IgeW91ciBleHBsYW5hdGlvbiwgYW5kIHRoZXkgYXJl IHZlcnkgaGVscGZ1bC4NClBsZWFzZSBmaW5kIG15IGNvbW1lbnRzIGlubGluZeKApg0KDQpBbGwg aW4gYWxsOiBzb21lIHRleHQgaXMgbmVlZGVkIGhlcmUsIGV2ZW4gaWYgbm8gbmV3IHRyYW5zcG9y dCBwcm90b2NvbCBpcyBleHBlY3RlZC4gSG93IHRvIG1ha2UgRGV0TmV0IHdvcmsgdG9nZXRoZXIg d2l0aCBUQ1Agb3IgVURQIGlzICBub3Qgc28gc3RyYWlnaHQgZm9yd2FyZC4NCg0KQmVzdCBSZWdh cmRzDQpYdWVzb25nDQoNCkZyb206IEJsYWNrLCBEYXZpZCBbbWFpbHRvOkRhdmlkLkJsYWNrQGRl bGwuY29tXQ0KU2VudDogVGh1cnNkYXksIE5vdmVtYmVyIDE1LCAyMDE4IDk6MTMgQU0NClRvOiBQ YXNjYWwgVGh1YmVydCAocHRodWJlcnQpIDxwdGh1YmVydEBjaXNjby5jb20+DQpDYzogR2VuZ3h1 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Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 57D6BEF9ED44F for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 07:38:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMA401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.42) by LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 07:38:58 +0000 Received: from DGGEMA521-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.6.27]) by DGGEMA401-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.42]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 15:38:55 +0800 From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" To: Lou Berger , Norman Finn , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Black, David" CC: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] pulling packets Thread-Index: AdR7DhnsUHHFp74PReiHX8huqYyB6AA4VCxgAAQZfzD//3ukgIAAYrcAgAANaoCAAAGYgIAAjbOAgAA1NwCAAA6EAIAAIR2A//9zmIA= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 07:38:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <8D171B16-FD22-46CD-9D2B-24070F2DC433@cisco.com> <6EDA7130-E283-4D72-B9DD-0211BB12E763@cisco.com> <0C722534-D42B-4822-8E64-354DAD00BB03@cisco.com> , <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F80171E775@lhrpml504-mbx.exmail.huawei.com> <1671637d4e8.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <1671637d4e8.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.169.123] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C238129D7dggema521mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 07:39:06 -0000 --_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C238129D7dggema521mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 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([208.54.80.230]:38237 helo=[100.88.148.170]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gNCHX-000byO-RX; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:41:50 -0700 From: Lou Berger To: =?UTF-8?B?SsOhbm9zIEZhcmthcw==?= , "Scharf, Michael" , "Black, David" CC: , DetNet WG Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 16:41:34 +0900 Message-ID: <167165167c8.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <2b1d286d-d127-393d-d735-d8dfd8ce57f2@ericsson.com> References: <6b6d3f37-0d43-553a-da0a-b1a3bb1a094c@ericsson.com> <2b1d286d-d127-393d-d735-d8dfd8ce57f2@ericsson.com> User-Agent: AquaMail/1.17.0-1318 (build: 101700009) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------16716516bd6226227ce3b1bfc" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 208.54.80.230 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gNCHX-000byO-RX X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: me65036d0.tmodns.net ([100.88.148.170]) [208.54.80.230]:38237 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 14 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Fwd: Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 07:41:56 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------16716516bd6226227ce3b1bfc Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just an FYI. I have some proposed text for the architecture document that I'm running by Michael and David. I'll circulate it to the list once I'm no longer in transit. Lou ---------- On November 15, 2018 4:31:40 PM János Farkas wrote: > Hi, > > Coming back to the aspects that have not been picked up in the ongoing > email discussions. > Combining the Michael's email and David's add-on to that. > > Some comments, suggestions are in line, marked . > > Best regards, > Janos > > ps: In this month, I have difficulties with accessing emails. Sorry > about that. I trust that the WG, including co-authors. continue the > discussions. > > > > On 11/4/2018 6:21 PM, Black, David wrote: >> Trying to help with these Transport issues. I generally agree with Michael >> Sharf's >> first two concerns. Like Michael, I will defer to the IESG on appropriate >> use of >> RFC 7426. >> >> In each case, I've extracted a key piece of text to try to make the point >> crisp ... >> >> [1] Minimum required level of DetNet support. >> >>> Does "some of the DetNet capabilities >>> (not necessarily all)" include e.g. vanilla traffic engineering? For >>> instance, if a >>> network node can ensure that the QoS requirements are met by leveraging >>> existing standardized TE without any additional DetNet awareness, is this >>> enough for deploying DetNet? Or does this node have to implement additional >>> DetNet-specific functionality? Specifically, please explain if an existing >>> DetNet- >>> unaware router on the path taken by DetNet traffic can be used to forward >>> DetNet traffic, or if it is mandatory that any router forwarding DetNet traffic >>> indeed implements new capabilities specific to DetNet. >> It's the former, as indicated by this text in Section 4.2.2 (I'm working >> from the -09 draft): >> >> In general, if a DetNet flow passes through one or more DetNet- >> unaware network nodes between two DetNet nodes providing the DetNet >> transport sub-layer for that flow, there is a potential for >> disruption or failure of the DetNet QoS. A network administrator >> needs to ensure that the DetNet-unaware network nodes are configured >> to minimize the chances of packet loss and delay, and provision >> enough extra buffer space in the DetNet transit node following the >> DetNet-unaware network nodes to absorb the induced latency >> variations. >> >> Perhaps a forward reference to Section 4.2.2 from the new text in the >> Introduction would help. > > David is right. > Forward reference will be added. Furthermore, the last sentence will be > updated in order to make it clear. > > The suggested new text: > > A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. That is, the > presence of DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the > benefits offered DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, > prevent existing QoS mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, > subject to the bandwidth required for the DetNet flows. A single > source-destination pair can trade both DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End > systems and applications need not instantiate special interfaces for > DetNet flows. Networks are not restricted to certain topologies; > connectivity is not restricted. Any application that generates a data > flow that can be usefully characterized as having a maximum bandwidth > should be able to take advantage of DetNet, as long as the necessary > resources can be reserved. Reservations can be made by the application > itself, via network management, by an application’s controller, or by > other means, e.g., a dynamic control plane (e.g., [RFC2205]). Network > nodes of a DetNet domain, i.e., DetNet nodes have to implement DetNet > capabilities in order to treat DetNet flows such that their QoS > requirements are met. DetNet nodes can be interconnected with different > sub-network technologies (4.1.2), where the nodes of the subnet are not > DetNet aware (4.2.2). > > > > Furthermore, the the following text is suggested to be added at the end > of section 4.5: > > All nodes in a DetNet domain are expected to support the data behavior > required to deliver a particular DetNet service.  If a node itself  is > not DetNet service aware, the DetNet nodes that are adjacent to such > non-DetNet aware nodes must ensure that the non-DetNet aware node is > provisioned  to appropriately support the DetNet service.  For example, > an IEEE 802.1 TSN node may be used to interconnect DetNet aware nodes, > and these DetNet nodes can map DetNet flows to 802.1 TSN flows. An other > example, and MPLS-TE or TP domain may be used to interconnect DetNet > aware nodes, and these DetNet nodes can map DetNet flows to TE LSPs > which can provide the Quality of Service requirements of the DetNet > service. > > > > > On 10/22/2018 11:44 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote: >> Hi Janos, >> >> Thanks for the reply. My comments are inline [ms]. >> >> I have omitted all proposed changes that work for me. >> >> Michael >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: János Farkas >> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 10:56 AM >> To: Scharf, Michael >> Cc:tsv-art@ietf.org;draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; DetNet >> WG >> Subject: Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 >> >> Hi Michael, >> >> Thank you very much for the thorough review and good comments! >> >> Please find below in-line responses and how we plan to update the draft to >> resolve your comments. >> >> Best regards, >> Janos >> >> >> On 9/29/2018 12:24 AM, Michael Scharf wrote: >>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf >>> Review result: Ready with Issues >>> >>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" >>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall framework for >>> Deterministic Networking. >>> >>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues as >>> detailed below. >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> Major issues: >> [...] >> >>> DetNet >>> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices >>> transporting DetNet traffic. That assumption should be explicitly >>> spelt out early in the document, e.g., in the introduction. >> Actually, some form of DetNet support is required from each node that >> transports DetNet traffic. For instance, DetNet flows have to be recognized >> in order not to spoil their QoS at the minimum. >> >> [ms] I look for an clear explanation in the architecture document of what >> "some form of DetNet support" exactly means. > > The key point is that each DetNet node of a DetNet MUST support DetNet. > There is text making this point, e.g., the definition of DetNet domain. > However, you are right, further clarifications are needed in the text. > See suggestions below. > > >> For instance, is standard MPLS TE without any DetNet support good enough >> for an LSR on the IP/MPLS path used by DetNet traffic, or not? As an >> example, when I read the following paragraph in >> draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-mpls-01 ... >> >> Transit nodes are normal MPLS Label Switching Routers (LSRs). They >> are generally unaware of the special requirements of DetNet flows, >> although they need to provide traffic engineering services and proper >> QoS to the LSPs associated with DetNet flows to enhance the prospect >> of the LSPs meeting the DetNet service requirements. Some >> implementations of transit nodes may be DetNet aware, but such nodes >> just support the DetNet transport layer. >> >> ... I could maybe assume that actually there can be "transit nodes" that do >> not require *any* sort of DetNet support or DetNet awareness. Is that correct? > > It is correct. > DetNet nodes of a DetNet domain can be interconnected by various subnet > technologies, e.g., MPLS TE. The nodes of the subnet, e.g., and LSR are > not DetNet aware. > > >> I think the architecture document has to be clear on such fundamental >> questions. > > See suggestions for clarification below. > > > >> The Introduction could be extended to clarify, e.g., the third paragraph: >> >> OLD: >> A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. That is, the >> presence of DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the >> benefits offered DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, prevent >> existing QoS mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, subject to the >> bandwidth required for the DetNet flows. A single source-destination pair >> can trade both DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End systems and applications >> need not instantiate special interfaces for DetNet flows. Networks are not >> restricted to certain topologies; connectivity is not restricted. Any >> application that generates a data flow that can be usefully characterized >> as having a maximum bandwidth should be able to take advantage of DetNet, >> as long as the necessary resources can be reserved. Reservations can be >> made by the application itself, via network management, by an application’s >> controller, or by other means, e.g., a dynamic control plane (e.g., [RFC2205]). >> >> NEW: >> A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. That is, the >> presence of DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the >> benefits offered DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, prevent >> existing QoS mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, subject to the >> bandwidth required for the DetNet flows. A single source-destination pair >> can trade both DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End systems and applications >> need not instantiate special interfaces for DetNet flows. Networks are not >> restricted to certain topologies; connectivity is not restricted. Any >> application that generates a data flow that can be usefully characterized >> as having a maximum bandwidth should be able to take advantage of DetNet, >> as long as the necessary resources can be reserved. Reservations can be >> made by the application itself, via network management, by an application’s >> controller, or by other means, e.g., a dynamic control plane (e.g., >> [RFC2205]). Network nodes supporting DetNet flows have to implement some of >> the DetNet capabilities (not necessarily all) in order to treat DetNet >> flows such that their QoS requirements are met. >> >> [ms] To me, the last sentence is not clear. Does "some of the DetNet >> capabilities (not necessarily all)" include e.g. vanilla traffic >> engineering? For instance, if a network node can ensure that the QoS >> requirements are met by leveraging existing standardized TE without any >> additional DetNet awareness, is this enough for deploying DetNet? Or does >> this node have to implement additional DetNet-specific functionality? >> Specifically, please explain if an existing DetNet-unaware router on the >> path taken by DetNet traffic can be used to forward DetNet traffic, or if >> it is mandatory that any router forwarding DetNet traffic indeed implements >> new capabilities specific to DetNet. In the latter case, I think the >> document would need to discuss incremental deployment strategies as well. >> >>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network >>> robustness >>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For instance, >>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet replication >>> could >>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How does the >>> DetNet >>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. if the >>> topology >>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be solved by >>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are corresponding >>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that filters and >>> policers >>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still assumes >>> consistently >>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And Section 3.3.2 is >>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" without >>> stating >>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further solutions, >>> such as >>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not discussed? >> Security issues and considerations are addressed by the DetNet Security >> draft:https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-security. >> Reference to the  DetNet Security draft will be added. >> >> There will be a document dedicated to Operations, Administration and >> Maintenance (OAM), which will address operational, misconfiguration, and >> failure detection issues. >> >> The topology changes have to be solved by the control plane, either >> centralized or distributed. >> >> The filters and policers described in Section 3.3.2 also provide >> robustness by eliminating/mitigating traffic coming from malfunctioning >> devices. >> >> RFC2475 is recommended for traffic policing functions to increase >> robustness. >> >> The text  in Section 3.3.2 could be made clearer, e.g., by updating the >> first paragraph to: >> >> OLD: >> One key to building robust real-time systems is to reduce the >> infinite variety of possible failures to a number that can be >> analyzed with reasonable confidence. DetNet aids in the process by >> allowing for filters and policers to detect DetNet packets received >> on the wrong interface, or at the wrong time, or in too great a >> volume, and to then take actions such as discarding the offending >> packet, shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting down the >> offending interface. >> >> NEW: >> Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of possible >> failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet network to >> detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, or at >> the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, filters and >> policers can take action to discard offending packets or flows, or >> trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting down >> the offending interface. >> >> [ms] That does not address my concern. As I wrote already, I believe this >> document has to discuss the applicability of circuit breakers according to >> RFC 8084. >> >>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of failures to >>> the QoS of >>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to protect >>> non-DetNet parts >>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. Solutions to this >>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic (e.g., in >>> case of >>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not discussed at all >>> in the >>> document? >> Actually the regulation of DetNet traffic by polices and filters >> protects both other DetNet traffic and non-DetNet traffic. >> >> Section 3.3.1 could be extended to make it clear, e.g., by extending the >> last paragraph: >> >> OLD: >> Ideally, the net effect of the presence of DetNet flows in a network >> on the non-DetNet packets is primarily a reduction in the available >> bandwidth. >> >> NEW: >> Traffic policing functions (e.g. [RFC2475]) are used to avoid the >> starvation of non-DetNet traffic. Thus, the net effect of the presence >> of DetNet flows in a network on non-DetNet flows is primarily a >> reduction in the available bandwidth. >> >> [ms] I believe a stronger wording is needed, e.g. along the lines of "a >> DetNet deployment must avoid starvation of non-DetNet traffic ...". > > Along your suggestion, the text will be updated to: > Starvation of non-DetNet traffic must be avoided, e.g., by traffic > policing functions (e.g. [RFC2475]). Thus, the net effect of the > presence of DetNet flows in a network on non-DetNet flows is > primarily a reduction in the available bandwidth. > > >> [...] >> >>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational RFC on >>> IRTF stream, >>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., "planes"). >>> This is >>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should probably refer to >>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC 7491, albeit >>> there is >>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, Section 4.4 >>> is by and >>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not specific to DetNet. >>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the concepts >>> introduced in >>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology or discuss >>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly at the >>> end that >>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet architecture. >>> It is not >>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 could be >>> removed >>> from the document without impacting the rest of the document. >> The document should point out to traffic engineering and centralized >> control plane aspects, so it is better to keep Section 4.4. >> >> RFC 7426 provides the full picture of SDN architecture, which needs to >> be referred from the DetNet architecture. No other RFC provides such >> detailed picture. Therefore, we need to keep the reference to RFC 7426, >> which is an informative reference. >> >> [ms] I'll leave that up to the IESG to decide whether an IETF proposed >> standard should build an architecture based on research work instead of, >> say, documents with IETF consensus. As a side note, I believe the >> understanding in industry what "SDN architecture" really means and how it >> is implemented may have evolved since publication of IRTF RFC 7426, which >> was published in Jan. 2015. For instance, IRTF RFC 7426 does not discuss >> the implications of segment routing, BGP-LS, and other recent IETF >> techniques. And, based on what I read in the DetNet architecture, I believe >> DetNet could actually be implemented without any "SDN architecture", e.g. >> by distributed traffic engineering. As a result, I don't even understand >> the need to discuss "SDN". >> >> [ms] For the record: As TSV-ART reviewer, I question whether IRTF RFC 7426 >> is indeed an appropriate reference, I have doubts that IRTF RFC 7426 is >> really up-to-date, and I am concerned about the content quality of section >> 4.4, e.g., regarding the lack of alignment with the rest of the document. >> The IESG will certainly have a better understanding that than me how to >> deal with such topics. > > > The subject is introduced with TEAS in the beginning of Section 4.4. The > architectural principles described in the DetNet architecture document > are according to RFC 8453 and RFC 7149, as well as RFC 7426. It would be > good to make this point clearer by adding references to RFC 8453 and RFC > 7149. As the architectural principles  are the same, there is no need to > remove RFC 7426. > > Suggested modifications: > > Section 3.3: > > OLD: > Explicit routes can be established in >    various ways, e.g., with RSVP-TE [RFC3209], with Segment Routing (SR) >    [RFC8402], via a Software Defined Networking approach [RFC7426], with >    IS-IS [RFC7813], etc.  Explicit routes are typically used in MPLS TE >    LSPs. > > NEW: > Explicit routes can be established in >    various ways, e.g., with RSVP-TE [RFC3209], with Segment Routing (SR) >    [RFC8402], via a Software Defined Networking approach [RFC7426], >    [RFC8453], and [RFC7149], with IS-IS [RFC7813], etc. Explicit routes >   are typically used in MPLS TE LSPs. > > Section 4.4 > > OLD: >    The Deterministic Networking architecture is thus composed of three >    planes, a (User) Application Plane, a Controller Plane, and a Network >    Plane, which echoes that of Figure 1 of Software-Defined Networking >    (SDN): Layers and Architecture Terminology [RFC7426].: > > > NEW: >    The Deterministic Networking architecture is thus composed of three >    planes, a (User) Application Plane, a Controller Plane, and a Network >    Plane, which echoes that of Figure 1 of Software-Defined Networking >    (SDN): Layers and Architecture Terminology [RFC7426] , and the >    Controllers identified in [RFC8453] and [RFC7149]. > > > >> >> The related work in TEAS is already referred to. >> >> [...] >> >>> Minor issues: >>> >>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" >>> >>> The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in the IETF, e.g. >>> originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. "transport >>> network" is >>> used in the IETF for different technologies in different areas, I >>> think the >>> term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer to transport >>> protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find the term "DetNet >>> transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion is easy to >>> see e.g. >>> in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as per RFC 1122) >>> sits >>> on top of "transport". >>> >>> Based on the document it also may be solution/implementation specific >>> whether >>> the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate protocol layer >>> compared >>> to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me why the word >>> "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination "transport layer". >>> >>> To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport protocol") should be >>> used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with RFC 1122. But >>> this is >>> probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. >> "transport" is used here as in "packet transport networks" not as OSI L4 >> transport. >> >> [ms] At the risk of stating the obvious: The relevant section of RFC 1122 >> defining "transport layer" is entitled by "The Internet Architecture". And, >> according e.g. to RFC 5921, "packet transport network" is a term defined by >> ITU-T. In an IETF document, I believe IETF terminology should be used. >> >> I suggest to use the terms "DetNet transport sub-layer" and "DetNet >> service sub-layer" throughout the document, which would hopefully avoid >> confusion. >> >> [ms] "DetNet transport sub-layer" somewhat solves my concern of avoiding >> the expression "transport layer". To really avoid confusion, I believe it >> would be better to avoid the ambiguous term "transport" altogether. But I >> will be fine if all DetNet documents consistently avoid the term "transport >> layer". > > The plan is to avoid "transport layer". > > Based on your comment, it seems better to make the following change in > 3.2.2.2: > > OLD: >    o  Providing sequencing information to the packets of a DetNet >       compound flow.  This may be done by adding a sequence number or >       time stamp as part of DetNet, or may be inherent in the packet, >       e.g., in a Layer-4 transport protocol, or associated to other >       physical properties such as the precise time (and radio channel) >       of reception of the packet.  This is typically done once, at or >       near the source. > > NEW: >    o  Providing sequencing information to the packets of a DetNet >       compound flow.  This may be done by adding a sequence number or >       time stamp as part of DetNet, or may be inherent in the packet, >       e.g., in a higher layer protocol, or associated to other >       physical properties such as the precise time (and radio channel) >       of reception of the packet.  This is typically done once, at or >       near the source. > > >> Michael > > > > > ---------- > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > ------------16716516bd6226227ce3b1bfc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Just an FYI. I have some prop= osed text for the architecture document that I'm running by Michael and Dav= id. I'll circulate it to the list once I'm no longer in transit.

Lou

On November 15, 2018 4:31:40 PM J=C3=A1nos Farkas <janos.farkas= @ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,

Coming back to the aspects that have not been picked up in the ongoing email discussions.
Combining the Michael's email and David's add-on to that.

Some comments, suggestions are in line, marked <JF>=C2=A0 </JF>.

Best regards,
Janos

ps: In this month, I have difficulties with accessing emails. Sorry about that. I trust that the WG, including co-authors. continue the discussions.



On 11/4/2018 6:21 PM, Black, David wrote:
Trying to help with these =
Transport issues.  I generally agree with Michael Sharf's
first two concerns.  Like Michael, I will defer to the IESG on appropriate =
use of
RFC 7426.

In each case, I've extracted a key piece of text to try to make the point c=
risp ...

[1] Minimum required level of DetNet support.


Does "some of the DetNet=
 capabilities
(not necessarily all)" include e.g. vanilla traffic engineering? For instan=
ce, if a
network node can ensure that the QoS requirements are met by leveraging
existing standardized TE without any additional DetNet awareness, is this
enough for deploying DetNet? Or does this node have to implement additional
DetNet-specific functionality? Specifically, please explain if an existing =
DetNet-
unaware router on the path taken by DetNet traffic can be used to forward
DetNet traffic, or if it is mandatory that any router forwarding DetNet tra=
ffic
indeed implements new capabilities specific to DetNet.

It's the former, as indica=
ted by this text in Section 4.2.2 (I'm working from the -09 draft):

    In general, if a DetNet flow passes through one or more DetNet-
   unaware network nodes between two DetNet nodes providing the DetNet
   transport sub-layer for that flow, there is a potential for
   disruption or failure of the DetNet QoS.  A network administrator
   needs to ensure that the DetNet-unaware network nodes are configured
   to minimize the chances of packet loss and delay, and provision
   enough extra buffer space in the DetNet transit node following the
   DetNet-unaware network nodes to absorb the induced latency
   variations.

Perhaps a forward reference to Section 4.2.2 from the new text in the Intro=
duction would help.
<JF>
David is right.
Forward reference will be added. Furthermore, the last sentence will be updated in order to make it clear.

The suggested new text:

A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. That is, the presence of DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the benefits offered DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, prevent existing QoS mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, subject to the bandwidth required for the DetNet flows. A single source-destination pair can trade both DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End systems and applications need not instantiate special interfaces for DetNet flows. Networks are not restricted to certain topologies; connectivity is not restricted. Any application that generates a data flow that can be usefully characterized as having a maximum bandwidth should be able to take advantage of DetNet, as long as the necessary resources can be reserved. Reservations can be made by the application itself, via network management, by an application=E2=80=99s controller, or by other means, e.g., a dynamic control plane (e.g., [RFC2205]). Network nodes of a DetNet domain, i.e., DetNet nodes have to implement DetNet capabilities in order to treat DetNet flows such that their QoS requirements are met. DetNet nodes can be interconnected with different sub-network technologies (4.1.2), where the nodes of the subnet are not DetNet aware (4.2.2).



Furthermore, the the following text is suggested to be added at the end of section 4.5:

All nodes in a DetNet domain are expected to support the data behavior required to deliver a particular DetNet service.=C2=A0 I= f a node itself=C2=A0 is not DetNet service aware, the DetNet nodes that are adjacent to such non-DetNet aware nodes must ensure that the non-DetNet aware node is provisioned=C2=A0 to appropriately support the DetNet service.=C2=A0 For example, an IEEE 802.1 TSN node may be used to interconnect DetNet aware nodes, and these DetNet nodes can map DetNet flows to 802.1 TSN flows. An other example, and MPLS-TE or TP domain may be used to interconnect DetNet aware nodes, and these DetNet nodes can map DetNet flows to TE LSPs which can provide the Quality of Service requirements of the DetNet service.
</JF>



On 10/22/2018 11:44 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote:
Hi Janos,

Thanks for the reply. My comments are inline [ms].

I have omitted all proposed changes that work for me.

Michael


-----Original Message-----
From: J=C3=A1nos Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsso=
n.com>=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 10:56 AM
To: Scharf, Michael <Michael.Scharf@hs-e=
sslingen.de>
Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; DetNet=
 WG <detnet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08

Hi Michael,

Thank you very much for the thorough review and good comments!

Please find below in-line responses and how we plan to update the draft to =
resolve your comments.

Best regards,
Janos


On 9/29/2018 12:24 AM, Michael Scharf wrote:

Reviewer: Michael Scharf
Review result: Ready with Issues

The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture"
(draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall framework for=20
Deterministic Networking.

As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues as=20
detailed below.

Michael

Major issues:

[...]


DetNet
basically requires support in (almost) all network devices=20
transporting DetNet traffic. That assumption should be explicitly=20
spelt out early in the document, e.g., in the introduction.

Actually, some form of DetNe=
t support is required from each node that transports DetNet traffic. For in=
stance, DetNet flows have to be recognized in order not to spoil their QoS =
at the minimum.

[ms] I look for an clear explanation in the architecture document of what "=
some form of DetNet support" exactly means.
<JF>
The key point is that each DetNet node of a DetNet MUST support DetNet.
There is text making this point, e.g., the definition of DetNet domain.
However, you are right, further clarifications are needed in the text. See suggestions below.
</JF>

For instance, is standard MP=
LS TE without any DetNet support good enough for an LSR on the IP/MPLS path=
 used by DetNet traffic, or not? As an example, when I read the following p=
aragraph in draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-mpls-01 ...

   Transit nodes are normal MPLS Label Switching Routers (LSRs).  They
   are generally unaware of the special requirements of DetNet flows,
   although they need to provide traffic engineering services and proper
   QoS to the LSPs associated with DetNet flows to enhance the prospect
   of the LSPs meeting the DetNet service requirements.  Some
   implementations of transit nodes may be DetNet aware, but such nodes
   just support the DetNet transport layer.

... I could maybe assume that actually there can be "transit nodes" that do=
 not require *any* sort of DetNet support or DetNet awareness. Is that corr=
ect?
<JF>
It is correct.
DetNet nodes of a DetNet domain can be interconnected by various subnet technologies, e.g., MPLS TE. The nodes of the subnet, e.g., and LSR are not DetNet aware.
</JF>

I think the architecture doc=
ument has to be clear on such fundamental questions.
<JF>
See suggestions for clarification below.
</JF>


The Introduction could be extended to clarify, e.g., the third paragraph:

OLD:
A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. That is, the prese=
nce of DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the benefits of=
fered DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, prevent existing Qo=
S mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, subject to the bandwidth r=
equired for the DetNet flows. A single source-destination pair can trade bo=
th DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End systems and applications need not insta=
ntiate special interfaces for DetNet flows. Networks are not restricted to =
certain topologies; connectivity is not restricted. Any application that ge=
nerates a data flow that can be usefully characterized as having a maximum =
bandwidth should be able to take advantage of DetNet, as long as the necess=
ary resources can be reserved. Reservations can be made by the application =
itself, via network management, by an application=E2=80=99s controller, or =
by other means, e.g., a dynamic control plane (e.g., [RFC2205]).

NEW:
A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. That is, the prese=
nce of DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the benefits of=
fered DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, prevent existing Qo=
S mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, subject to the bandwidth r=
equired for the DetNet flows. A single source-destination pair can trade bo=
th DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End systems and applications need not insta=
ntiate special interfaces for DetNet flows. Networks are not restricted to =
certain topologies; connectivity is not restricted. Any application that ge=
nerates a data flow that can be usefully characterized as having a maximum =
bandwidth should be able to take advantage of DetNet, as long as the necess=
ary resources can be reserved. Reservations can be made by the application =
itself, via network management, by an application=E2=80=99s controller, or =
by other means, e.g., a dynamic control plane (e.g., [RFC2205]). Network no=
des supporting DetNet flows have to implement some of the DetNet capabiliti=
es (not necessarily all) in order to treat DetNet flows such that their QoS=
 requirements are met.

[ms] To me, the last sentence is not clear. Does "some of the DetNet capabi=
lities (not necessarily all)" include e.g. vanilla traffic engineering? For=
 instance, if a network node can ensure that the QoS requirements are met b=
y leveraging existing standardized TE without any additional DetNet awarene=
ss, is this enough for deploying DetNet? Or does this node have to implemen=
t additional DetNet-specific functionality? Specifically, please explain if=
 an existing DetNet-unaware router on the path taken by DetNet traffic can =
be used to forward DetNet traffic, or if it is mandatory that any router fo=
rwarding DetNet traffic indeed implements new capabilities specific to DetN=
et. In the latter case, I think the document would need to discuss incremen=
tal deployment strategies as well.


* It is surprising that th=
ere is hardly any discussion on network=20
robustness
and safety; this probably also relates to security. For instance,
misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet replication=20
could
severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How does the=20
DetNet
architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. if the=20
topology
changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be solved by
implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are corresponding
requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that filters and=20
policers
can help, and that may be true, but that probably still assumes=20
consistently
and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And Section 3.3.2 is
vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" without=20
stating
any requirements or recommendations. There may be further solutions,=20
such as
circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not discussed?

Security issues and consider=
ations are addressed by the DetNet Security=20
draft: https://datatr=
acker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-security.
Reference to the=C2=A0 DetNet Security draft will be added.

There will be a document dedicated to Operations, Administration and=20
Maintenance (OAM), which will address operational, misconfiguration, and=20
failure detection issues.

The topology changes have to be solved by the control plane, either=20
centralized or distributed.

The filters and policers described in Section 3.3.2 also provide=20
robustness by eliminating/mitigating traffic coming from malfunctioning=20
devices.

RFC2475 is recommended for traffic policing functions to increase=20
robustness.

The text=C2=A0 in Section 3.3.2 could be made clearer, e.g., by updating th=
e=20
first paragraph to:

OLD:
One key to building robust real-time systems is to reduce the
infinite variety of possible failures to a number that can be
analyzed with reasonable confidence. DetNet aids in the process by
allowing for filters and policers to detect DetNet packets received
on the wrong interface, or at the wrong time, or in too great a
volume, and to then take actions such as discarding the offending
packet, shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting down the
offending interface.

NEW:
Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of possible
failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet network to
detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, or at
the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, filters and
policers can take action to discard offending packets or flows, or
trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting down
the offending interface.

[ms] That does not address my concern. As I wrote already, I believe this d=
ocument has to discuss the applicability of circuit breakers according to R=
FC 8084.=20


* Somewhat related, the do=
cument only looks at impact of failures to=20
the QoS of
DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to protect=20
non-DetNet parts
of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. Solutions to this
probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic (e.g., in=20
case of
topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not discussed at all=20
in the
document?

Actually the regulation of D=
etNet traffic by polices and filters=20
protects both other DetNet traffic and non-DetNet traffic.

Section 3.3.1 could be extended to make it clear, e.g., by extending the=20
last paragraph:

OLD:
Ideally, the net effect of the presence of DetNet flows in a network
on the non-DetNet packets is primarily a reduction in the available
bandwidth.

NEW:
Traffic policing functions (e.g. [RFC2475]) are used to avoid the
starvation of non-DetNet traffic. Thus, the net effect of the presence
of DetNet flows in a network on non-DetNet flows is primarily a
reduction in the available bandwidth.

[ms] I believe a stronger wording is needed, e.g. along the lines of "a Det=
Net deployment must avoid starvation of non-DetNet traffic ...".
<JF>
Along your suggestion, the text will be updated to:
Starvation of non-DetNet traffic must be avoided, e.g., by traffic
policing functions (e.g. [RFC2475]). Thus, the net effect of the
presence of DetNet flows in a network on non-DetNet flows is
primarily a reduction in the available bandwidth.
</JF>

[...]


* Section 4.4 refers to RF=
C 7426, which is an informational RFC on=20
IRTF stream,
and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., "planes").=20
This is
very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should probably refer to
documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC 7491, albeit=20
there is
other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, Section 4.4=20
is by and
large decoupled from the rest of the document and not specific to DetNet.
Neither do other sections of the document refer to the concepts=20
introduced in
Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology or discuss
applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly at the=20
end that
it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet architecture.=20
It is not
at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 could be=20
removed
from the document without impacting the rest of the document.

The document should point ou=
t to traffic engineering and centralized=20
control plane aspects, so it is better to keep Section 4.4.

RFC 7426 provides the full picture of SDN architecture, which needs to=20
be referred from the DetNet architecture. No other RFC provides such=20
detailed picture. Therefore, we need to keep the reference to RFC 7426,=20
which is an informative reference.

[ms] I'll leave that up to the IESG to decide whether an IETF proposed stan=
dard should build an architecture based on research work instead of, say, d=
ocuments with IETF consensus. As a side note, I believe the understanding i=
n industry what "SDN architecture" really means and how it is implemented m=
ay have evolved since publication of IRTF RFC 7426, which was published in =
Jan. 2015. For instance, IRTF RFC 7426 does not discuss the implications of=
 segment routing, BGP-LS, and other recent IETF techniques. And, based on w=
hat I read in the DetNet architecture, I believe DetNet could actually be i=
mplemented without any "SDN architecture", e.g. by distributed traffic engi=
neering. As a result, I don't even understand the need to discuss "SDN".

[ms] For the record: As TSV-ART reviewer, I question whether IRTF RFC 7426 =
is indeed an appropriate reference, I have doubts that IRTF RFC 7426 is rea=
lly up-to-date, and I am concerned about the content quality of section 4.4=
, e.g., regarding the lack of alignment with the rest of the document. The =
IESG will certainly have a better understanding that than me how to deal wi=
th such topics.

<JF>
The subject is introduced with TEAS in the beginning of Section 4.4. The architectural principles described in the DetNet architecture document are according to RFC 8453 and RFC 7149, as well as RFC 7426. It would be good to make this point clearer by adding references to RFC 8453 and RFC 7149. As the architectural principles=C2=A0 are the same, there is no need to remove RFC 7426.=

Suggested modifications:

Section 3.3:

OLD:
Explicit routes can be established in
=C2=A0=C2=A0 various ways, e.g., with RSVP-TE [RFC3209], with Segme= nt Routing (SR)
=C2=A0=C2=A0 [RFC8402], via a Software Defined Networking approach [RFC7426], with
=C2=A0=C2=A0 IS-IS [RFC7813], etc.=C2=A0 Explicit routes are typica= lly used in MPLS TE
=C2=A0=C2=A0 LSPs.

NEW:
Explicit routes can be established in
=C2=A0=C2=A0 various ways, e.g., with RSVP-TE [RFC3209], with Segme= nt Routing (SR)
=C2=A0=C2=A0 [RFC8402], via a Software Defined Networking approach [RFC7426],
=C2=A0=C2=A0 [RFC8453], and [RFC7149], with IS-IS [RFC7813], etc.= =C2=A0 Explicit routes
=C2=A0 are typically used in MPLS TE LSPs.

Section 4.4

OLD:
=C2=A0=C2=A0 The Deterministic Networking architecture is thus comp= osed of three
=C2=A0=C2=A0 planes, a (User) Application Plane, a Controller Plane= , and a Network
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Plane, which echoes that of Figure 1 of Software-Defin= ed Networking
=C2=A0=C2=A0 (SDN): Layers and Architecture Terminology [RFC7426].:=


NEW:
=C2=A0=C2=A0 The Deterministic Networking architecture is thus comp= osed of three
=C2=A0=C2=A0 planes, a (User) Application Plane, a Controller Plane= , and a Network
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Plane, which echoes that of Figure 1 of Software-Defin= ed Networking
=C2=A0=C2=A0 (SDN): Layers and Architecture Terminology [RFC7426] ,= and the
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Controllers identified in [RFC8453] and [RFC7149].

</JF>

=20
The related work in TEAS is already referred to.

[...]


Minor issues:

* Terminology "DetNet transport layer"

The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in the IETF, e.g.
originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. "transport=20
network" is
used in the IETF for different technologies in different areas, I=20
think the
term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer to transport
protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find the term "DetNet
transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion is easy to=20
see e.g.
in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as per RFC 1122)=20
sits
on top of "transport".

Based on the document it also may be solution/implementation specific=20
whether
the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate protocol layer=20
compared
to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me why the word
"layer" has to be used, specifically in combination "transport layer".

To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport protocol") should be
used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with RFC 1122. But=20
this is
probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG.

"transport" is used here as =
in "packet transport networks" not as OSI L4=20
transport.

[ms] At the risk of stating the obvious: The relevant section of RFC 1122 d=
efining "transport layer" is entitled by "The Internet Architecture". And, =
according e.g. to RFC 5921, "packet transport network" is a term defined by=
 ITU-T. In an IETF document, I believe IETF terminology should be used.=20

I suggest to use the terms "DetNet transport sub-layer" and "DetNet=20
service sub-layer" throughout the document, which would hopefully avoid=20
confusion.

[ms] "DetNet transport sub-layer" somewhat solves my concern of avoiding th=
e expression "transport layer". To really avoid confusion, I believe it wou=
ld be better to avoid the ambiguous term "transport" altogether.  But I wil=
l be fine if all DetNet documents consistently avoid the term "transport la=
yer".
<JF>
The plan is to avoid "transport layer".

Based on your comment, it seems better to make the following change in 3.2.2.2:

OLD:
=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Providing sequencing information to the packet= s of a DetNet
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 compound flow.=C2=A0 This may be don= e by adding a sequence number or
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 time stamp as part of DetNet, or may= be inherent in the packet,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 e.g., in a Layer-4 transport protoco= l, or associated to other
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 physical properties such as the prec= ise time (and radio channel)
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 of reception of the packet.=C2=A0 Th= is is typically done once, at or
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 near the source.

NEW:
=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Providing sequencing information to the packet= s of a DetNet
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 compound flow.=C2=A0 This may be don= e by adding a sequence number or
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 time stamp as part of DetNet, or may= be inherent in the packet,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 e.g., in a higher layer protocol, or= associated to other
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 physical properties such as the prec= ise time (and radio channel)
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 of reception of the packet.=C2=A0 Th= is is typically done once, at or
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 near the source.
</JF>

Michael

=20
_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
------------16716516bd6226227ce3b1bfc-- From nobody Thu Nov 15 00:01:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4397128766 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:01:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aCRxisDurXWu for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy10-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy10-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.20.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 068FD126BED for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw12.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.12]) by gproxy10.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36061141208 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:42:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id NCIFgxrNUE0jMNCIFgIdk5; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:42:27 -0700 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Subject:References:In-Reply-To: Message-ID:Date:CC:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=zDXLCjdYJ+8Ocb6H4VkCV7YF9jnCLZGAwc5Cc1s++2s=; b=Lw/x+1ezIU9edfGI9K0bYcyun1 Jd7iorA6KWlMuM4LfheMsDJFIQ37SIuys7mPxuV+kz7aMEU0U8K+ZqY7yWpGZpfkGOWQLchbmc6x5 3ndMXrW1GFPuzSUtqB4NrKlkI; Received: from me65036d0.tmodns.net ([208.54.80.230]:29910 helo=[100.88.148.170]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gNBp0-000UuT-Kr; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:12:17 -0700 From: Lou Berger To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Black, David" CC: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" , Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 16:12:06 +0900 Message-ID: <16716367170.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <0C722534-D42B-4822-8E64-354DAD00BB03@cisco.com> References: <0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com>, , <8D171B16-FD22-46CD-9D2B-24070F2DC433@cisco.com> <6EDA7130-E283-4D72-B9DD-0211BB12E763@cisco.com>, <0C722534-D42B-4822-8E64-354DAD00BB03@cisco.com> User-Agent: AquaMail/1.17.0-1318 (build: 101700009) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------1671636751b226227ce53e86ab" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 208.54.80.230 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gNBp0-000UuT-Kr X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: me65036d0.tmodns.net ([100.88.148.170]) [208.54.80.230]:29910 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 18 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:01:19 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------1671636751b226227ce53e86ab Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit So I continue to strongly disagree with preof as a transport protocol. It *is* a service provided by DetNet which, just like any other 1+1 service, is provided by many other network technologies - that are unfortunately referred to as transport *network* technologies. I do think there is room for a customized or specific transport protocol, and expect this work to take place in the tsvwg. In discussions with David we identify that there might be a need for a new detnet service parameter which indicates if the detnet user traffic was not congestion aware, in which case DetNet networks would be required to drop such traffic at the detnet edge - thus ensuring that the traffic would not eacape the domain. I will also note that this requirement is inherently met by the current preof mechanism size it is strictly limited to an Mpls DetNet/te domain. Lou ---------- On November 15, 2018 1:41:16 AM "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" wrote: > I agree with the bottom line David, > > that was the intention; though I’m unclear if and where I can publish the > lower layer pull thing. I wrote it as an eye opener, hoping people would > see the issue. I retain Lou’s suggestion that PCF is a beginning for it > though it is just a faucet with no control of what goes though when we want > a just in time per packet pull. > > For your points below, I mentioned IS-IS as an illustration that we can > have a same operation at both layers, that is not so unusual. I’m not > saying detnet need IS-IS, that was really not the point. > > As for the functions I just point out the likeness to illustrate that the > detnet service layer is akin though far from identical to existing > variations of TCP. Seems we agree on this likeness. I do not read that you > oppose my conclusion that the detnet service layer can be implemented as a > detnet « transport protocol ». > > For now I need to read on the links you suggested. > > Many thanks for all this! > > Pascal > > Le 14 nov. 2018 à 22:52, Black, David > > a écrit : > > Bottom Line: I would suggest focusing discussion of a DetNet “transport > protocol” on what has to be done via tunnels to make PREOF work for the IP > solution (data plane), and would suggest using separate drafts for this and > local loop traffic shaping. > > Details inline … > > Thanks, --David > > From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 4:59 AM > To: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) > Cc: detnet@ietf.org; Black, David > Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets > > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive > information. > Typos below, some thanks to my intelligent smart phone, and some to > confused-me. > > Please read: > All in all, this tells me that the detnet service layer operates at layer 4 > > Regards, > > Pascal > > Le 14 nov. 2018 à 16:53, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > a écrit : > Hello Xuesong: > > We do layers so as to communalise services so every applications does not > need to reinvent its own. > > The fact that every industrial application that adaptateur from serial but > to IP had to implement a jitter elimination buffer is an indication that we > failed to provide just that at a lower layer. > > Same goes for voice and video. But didn’t you see it on occasions? Those > jitter elimination techniques create a latency in the discussion or a delay > in the tv stream that you can actually observe. > [David>] When things work, jitter elimination is common behavior. When > they don’t work, i.e., something doesn’t arrive in time, both retransmit > behavior and reaction to missing data are app-specific. > > Now let us look at the detnet service layer and compare with traditional > Layer 4 functions. > > The service layer provides a flow control, in this particular case a > rate-based one. This is similar to functionality found in DC-TCP or in a > long gone past, IBM’s Rapid Transport Protocol, though we probably need > only a simplified version of that. > [David>] It’s important to distinguish flow control, which can be provide > on a link-by-link basis from congestion control, which is a superset of > flow control and can only be provided end-to-end. As DetNet eliminates all > congestion, congestion control is not required. Specific example – DC-TCP > is driven by ECN congestion signals (CE marks) coming back from the > network, but if a DetNet node ever marks a DetNet packet as CE, something > has gone seriously awry. > > The service layer performs reordering and duplication elimination > functions. TCP does that too. > [David>] Yes … but … TCP elimination of duplicate packets is intended only > to deal with “stupid network tricks” … > > The service layer distributes packets and replicas over multiple paths > (detnet transports). There’s a hint of that in MP-TCP though we need a > powerful addition for replication and coding. > [David>] DetNet differs because the replication and distribution happen at > nodes in the network, not at end systems. For any TCP-like protocol > (reliable delivery with congestion control), packet duplication is always a > manifestation of a network “bug,” i.e., divergence from ideal network > behavior. For the RE in DetNet PREOF, packet duplication is a network > “feature” ;-). As of right now, packet duplication and elimination, plus > associated reordering (PREOF) is not part of the IP solution – an > additional encapsulation would likely be needed to support that > functionality, and the result which would look a lot like a DetNet > transport tunnel between nodes in the DetNet network. If anyone wants to > work on this, reading draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels is RECOMMENDED. > > The detnet service layer is above the detnet transport layer which happens > to be layer 3. > > All in all, this tells me that the detnet transport service layer operates > at layer 4. > > I agree with you that there is an exact same need for TSN. Just like there > is a need for IS-IS at both layers. > [David>] Many of the IP networks over which DetNet operates will not be > using IS-IS for IP (layer 3) routing – there are a number of alternatives. > > The IEEE may very well provide the same features in the talker, and we may > very well be successful at sharing specifications just like we did for > IS-IS. But for us I see the detnet service layer packaged as a Layer 4 that > the rest of the IETF will call a Transport. Which makes the name collision > very unfortunate, by the way. > [David>] Bottom Line: I would suggest focusing discussion of a DetNet > “transport protocol” on what has to be done via tunnels to make PREOF work > for the IP solution (data plane), and would suggest using separate drafts > for this and local loop traffic shaping. > > Note that my draft also discusses a L2 tokenized loop to avoid the buffer > bloat at the detnet ingress, which is the piece that is analogous to the > solution shown in the video. > > Take care, > > Pascal > > Le 14 nov. 2018 à 14:58, Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) > > a écrit : > Dear Pascal, > > I consider the problem of “DetNet transport layer” all over again, and > finally I make myself confused. So I send this email to search for help. > Please correct me if you find anything wrong below: > > 1. TSN doesn’t need transport layer, because the talker and listener > are TSN aware, and they can send the packets in some particular time slot > based on the traffic specification; > > 2. DetNet does need transport layer, because talker and listener are > not under control; > > 3. TCP can’t be used for DetNet , because TCP tries to find the “fair > bandwidth” for the flows and it makes the flow rate changes all the time, > while the sending rate of DetNet is supposed to be constant, and every > packet should show up in an expected time slot; > > 4. UDP can’t be used for DetNet, because there is no rate control. If > the talker sends the packets in the wrong pattern, UDP can do nothing. > > 5. So we need “DetNet transport layer”, which can :a. Send the packet > in a deterministic pattern; b. If anything goes wrong, make it go back to > the correct pattern. > > 6. This, finally, makes the talker “DetNet aware”(especially point a > above), which is just the same as what happens in TSN. > > If this logic chain works, what we actually requires is just a DetNet > talker rather than a new transport layer. > > > Best Regards > Xuesong > > > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert > (pthubert) > Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:10 PM > To: detnet@ietf.org; Black, David > > > Subject: [Detnet] pulling packets > > Dear all > > This video https://youtu.be/BO0QhaxBRr0 has a great illustration of the UNI > packet pull method that we use in section “5.1. Local Loop Flow Control” > of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-01 to > pull packets from the detnet unaware host from the detnet ingress box. The > problem for detnet is that shaping in the detnet ingress can create bloat > and uncontrolled end to end latency so we want to control the maximum > amount of pending frames to keep the detnet ingress busy and push back to > the L4/5 for anything above that. > > I hope you’ll love the video as much as I did; > > Pascal > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > ---------- > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > ------------1671636751b226227ce53e86ab Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

So I continue to strongly dis= agree with preof as a transport protocol.  It *is* a service provided = by DetNet which, just like any other 1+1 service, is provided by many other= network technologies - that are unfortunately referred to as transport *ne= twork* technologies.

I do think there is room for = a  customized or specific transport protocol, and expect this work to = take place in the tsvwg.  In discussions with David we identify that t= here might be a need for a new detnet service parameter which indicates if = the detnet user traffic was not congestion aware, in which case DetNet netw= orks would be required to drop such traffic at the detnet edge - thus ensur= ing that the traffic would not eacape the domain.

I will also note that this re= quirement is inherently met by the current preof mechanism size it is stric= tly limited to an Mpls DetNet/te domain.

Lou

On November 15, 2018 1:41:16 AM "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)&qu= ot; <pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:

I agree with the bottom line David, 

that was the intention; though I=E2=80=99m unclear if and where I can = publish the lower layer pull thing. I wrote it as an eye opener, hoping peo= ple would see the issue. I retain Lou=E2=80=99s suggestion that PCF is a be= ginning for it though it is just a faucet with no control of what goes though when we want a just in time per packet pull.
For your points below, I mentioned IS-IS as an illustration that we ca= n have a same operation at both layers, that is not so unusual. I=E2=80=99m= not saying detnet need IS-IS, that was really not the point.

As for the functions I just point out the likeness to illustrate that = the detnet service layer is akin though far from identical to existing vari= ations of TCP. Seems we agree on this likeness. I do not read that you oppo= se my conclusion that the detnet service layer can be implemented as a detnet =C2=AB transport protocol =C2= =BB.

For now I need to read on the links you suggested.

Many thanks for all this!

Pascal

Le 14 nov. 2018 =C3=A0 22:52, Black, David <David.Black@dell.com> a =C3=A9crit :

Bottom Line:  I would suggest focusing discussion of a DetNet = =E2=80=9Ctransport protocol=E2=80=9D on what has to be done via tunnels to = make PREOF work for the IP solution (data plane), and would suggest using separate drafts for this and local loop traffic shaping.  =

 

Details inline =E2=80= =A6

 

Thanks, --David

 

From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 4:59 AM
To: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)
Cc: detnet@ietf.org; Black, D= avid
Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets

 

[EXTERNAL E= MAIL]
Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive = information.

Typos below, some thanks to my intelligent smart pho= ne, and some to confused-me. 

 

Please read:

All in all, this tells m= e that the detnet service layer operates at layer 4

 

Regards,

 

Pascal


Le 14 nov. 2018 =C3=A0 16:53, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> a =C3=A9crit :<= /o:p>

Hello Xuesong:

 

We do layers so as to communalise services so every = applications does not need to reinvent its own.

 

The fact that every industrial application that adap= tateur from serial but to IP had to implement a jitter elimination buffer i= s an indication that we failed to provide just that at a lower layer. =

 

Same goes for voice and video. But didn=E2=80=99t yo= u see it on occasions? Those jitter elimination techniques create a latency= in the discussion or a delay in the tv stream that you can actually observ= e.

[David>] When= things work, jitter elimination is common behavior.  When they don=E2= =80=99t work, i.e., something doesn=E2=80=99t arrive in time, both retransm= it behavior and reaction to missing data are app-specific.
Now let us look at the detnet service layer and compare with traditional La= yer 4 functions.

 

 The service layer provides a flow control, in = this particular case a rate-based one. This is similar to functionality fou= nd in DC-TCP or in a long gone past, IBM=E2=80=99s Rapid Transport Protocol= , though we probably need only a simplified version of that.

[David>] It= =E2=80=99s important to distinguish flow control, which can be provide on a= link-by-link basis from congestion control, which is a superset of flow co= ntrol and can only be provided end-to-end.  As DetNet eliminates all congestion, congestion control is not required.  Speci= fic example =E2=80=93 DC-TCP is driven by ECN congestion signals (CE marks)= coming back from the network, but if a DetNet node ever marks a DetNet pac= ket as CE, something has gone seriously awry.

The service layer performs reordering and duplication elimination functions= . TCP does that too.

[David>] Yes = =E2=80=A6 but =E2=80=A6 TCP elimination of duplicate packets is intended on= ly to deal with =E2=80=9Cstupid network tricks=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6

 

The service layer distributes packets and replicas o= ver multiple paths (detnet transports). There=E2=80=99s a hint of that in M= P-TCP though we need a powerful addition for replication and coding.

[David>] DetN= et differs because the replication and distribution happen at nodes in the = network, not at end systems.  For any TCP-like protocol (reliable deli= very with congestion control), packet duplication is always a manifestation of a network =E2=80=9Cbug,=E2=80=9D i.e., diverg= ence from ideal network behavior.  For the RE in DetNet PREOF, packet = duplication is a network =E2=80=9Cfeature=E2=80=9D ;-).  As of right n= ow, packet duplication and elimination, plus associated reordering (PREOF)  is not part of the IP solution =E2=80=93 an additional encapsulation= would likely be needed to support that functionality, and the result which= would look a lot like a DetNet transport tunnel between nodes in the DetNe= t network.  If anyone wants to work on this, reading draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels is RECOMMENDED.

 

The detnet service layer is above the detnet transpo= rt layer which happens to be layer 3.

 

All in all, this tells me that the detnet transport s= ervice layer operates at layer 4.

 

I agree with you that there is an exact same need fo= r TSN. Just like there is a need for IS-IS at both layers.

[David>] Many= of the IP networks over which DetNet operates will not be using IS-IS for = IP (layer 3) routing =E2=80=93 there are a number of alternatives.

 

The IEEE may very well provide the same features in = the talker, and we may very well be successful at sharing specifications ju= st like we did for IS-IS. But for us I see the detnet service layer package= d as a Layer 4 that the rest of the IETF will call a Transport. Which makes the name collision very unfortunat= e, by the way.

[David>] Bott= om Line:  I would suggest focusing discussion of a DetNet =E2=80=9Ctra= nsport protocol=E2=80=9D on what has to be done via tunnels to make PREOF w= ork for the IP solution (data plane), and would suggest using separate drafts for this and local loop traffic shaping.

 

Note that my draft also discusses a L2 tokenized loo= p to avoid the buffer bloat at the detnet ingress, which is the piece that = is analogous to the solution shown in the video.

 

Take care,

 

Pascal


Le 14 nov. 2018 =C3=A0 14:58, Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) <gengxuesong@huawei.com> a =C3=A9crit&nbs= p;:

Dear Pascal,

 

I consider the problem of =E2=80=9CDetNet transport layer=E2=80=9D all= over again, and finally I make myself confused. So I send this email to se= arch for help. Please correct me if you find anything wrong below:

1.       TSN doesn=E2=80= =99t need transport layer, because the talker and listener are TSN aware, a= nd they can send the packets in some particular time slot based on the traf= fic specification;

2.       DetNet does need = transport layer, because talker and listener are not under control;<= o:p>

3.       TCP can=E2=80=99t= be used for DetNet , because TCP tries to find the =E2=80=9Cfair bandwidth= =E2=80=9D for the flows and it makes the flow rate changes all the time, wh= ile the sending rate of DetNet is supposed to be constant, and every packet should show up in an expected time slot;

4.       UDP can=E2=80=99t= be used for DetNet, because there is no rate control. If the talker sends = the packets in the wrong pattern, UDP can do nothing.

5.       So we need =E2=80= =9CDetNet transport layer=E2=80=9D, which can :a. Send the packet in a dete= rministic pattern; b. If anything goes wrong, make it go back to the correc= t pattern.

6.       This, finally, ma= kes the talker =E2=80=9CDetNet aware=E2=80=9D(especially point a above), wh= ich is just the same as what happens in TSN.

 

If this logic chain works, what we actually requires is just a DetNet = talker rather than a new transport layer.

 

 

Best Regards

Xuesong

 = ;

 = ;

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:10 PM
To: detnet@ietf.org; Black, D= avid <David.Black@dell.com&g= t;
Subject: [Detnet] pulling packets

 

Dear all

 

This video = https://youtu.be/BO0QhaxBRr0 has a great illustration of the UNI packet= pull method that we use in section =E2=80=9C5.1.  Local Loop Flow Con= trol=E2=80=9D of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-01 to pull packets from the detnet unaware host from the detnet ingress box.= The problem for detnet is that shaping in the detnet ingress can create bloat and uncontrolled end to end latency= so we want to control the maximum amount of pending frames to keep the det= net ingress busy and push back to the L4/5 for anything above that.

 

I hope you=E2=80=99ll love the video as much as I di= d;

 

Pascal

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
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Nov 2018 00:10:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id C22229721CAF1 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:10:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMA423-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.156) by LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:10:56 +0000 Received: from DGGEMA521-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.6.27]) by dggema423-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.198.156]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 16:10:52 +0800 From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" CC: "detnet@ietf.org" , "Black, David" Thread-Topic: pulling packets Thread-Index: AdR7DhnsUHHFp74PReiHX8huqYyB6AA4VCxgAAQZfzAALj8mQA== Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:10:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com>, <8D171B16-FD22-46CD-9D2B-24070F2DC433@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <8D171B16-FD22-46CD-9D2B-24070F2DC433@cisco.com> 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(CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 9ABB9440210; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 09:11:57 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 09:11:57 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Lou Berger Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Black, David" , "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" , detnet@ietf.org Message-ID: <20181115081157.jpooquc5cyrafgh3@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <8D171B16-FD22-46CD-9D2B-24070F2DC433@cisco.com> <6EDA7130-E283-4D72-B9DD-0211BB12E763@cisco.com> <0C722534-D42B-4822-8E64-354DAD00BB03@cisco.com> <16716367170.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <16716367170.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:12:05 -0000 How are you going to calculate the latency for elastic traffic without a specified DetNet flow envelope ? Aka: As i said in my prior mail to Michael's review, i don't think we have working models for elastic traffic in DetNet and even if we had, i think they would be sufficiently more complex thart it would make sense to define them as an add-on. This proposal from Pascal is nice and useful. To me it's some form of add-on, where i am not sure i havd the right name for it right now, but i don't think it requires a change to the underlying DDetNet model of envelope defined flows. It primarily allows TCP flows to be mapped to DetNet. Cheers Toerless On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 04:12:06PM +0900, Lou Berger wrote: > So I continue to strongly disagree with preof as a transport protocol. It > *is* a service provided by DetNet which, just like any other 1+1 service, is > provided by many other network technologies - that are unfortunately > referred to as transport *network* technologies. > > I do think there is room for a customized or specific transport protocol, > and expect this work to take place in the tsvwg. In discussions with David > we identify that there might be a need for a new detnet service parameter > which indicates if the detnet user traffic was not congestion aware, in > which case DetNet networks would be required to drop such traffic at the > detnet edge - thus ensuring that the traffic would not eacape the domain. > > I will also note that this requirement is inherently met by the current > preof mechanism size it is strictly limited to an Mpls DetNet/te domain. > > Lou > > > > ---------- > On November 15, 2018 1:41:16 AM "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" > wrote: > > > I agree with the bottom line David, > > > > that was the intention; though I???m unclear if and where I can publish > > the lower layer pull thing. I wrote it as an eye opener, hoping people > > would see the issue. I retain Lou???s suggestion that PCF is a beginning > > for it though it is just a faucet with no control of what goes though > > when we want a just in time per packet pull. > > > > For your points below, I mentioned IS-IS as an illustration that we can > > have a same operation at both layers, that is not so unusual. I???m not > > saying detnet need IS-IS, that was really not the point. > > > > As for the functions I just point out the likeness to illustrate that > > the detnet service layer is akin though far from identical to existing > > variations of TCP. Seems we agree on this likeness. I do not read that > > you oppose my conclusion that the detnet service layer can be > > implemented as a detnet transport protocol . > > > > For now I need to read on the links you suggested. > > > > Many thanks for all this! > > > > Pascal > > > > Le 14 nov. 2018 22:52, Black, David > > > a crit : > > > > Bottom Line: I would suggest focusing discussion of a DetNet > > ???transport protocol??? on what has to be done via tunnels to make > > PREOF work for the IP solution (data plane), and would suggest using > > separate drafts for this and local loop traffic shaping. > > > > Details inline ??? > > > > Thanks, --David > > > > From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 4:59 AM > > To: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) > > Cc: detnet@ietf.org; Black, David > > Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets > > > > > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for > > sensitive information. > > Typos below, some thanks to my intelligent smart phone, and some to > > confused-me. > > > > Please read: > > All in all, this tells me that the detnet service layer operates at layer 4 > > > > Regards, > > > > Pascal > > > > Le 14 nov. 2018 16:53, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > > a crit : > > Hello Xuesong: > > > > We do layers so as to communalise services so every applications does > > not need to reinvent its own. > > > > The fact that every industrial application that adaptateur from serial > > but to IP had to implement a jitter elimination buffer is an indication > > that we failed to provide just that at a lower layer. > > > > Same goes for voice and video. But didn???t you see it on occasions? > > Those jitter elimination techniques create a latency in the discussion > > or a delay in the tv stream that you can actually observe. > > [David>] When things work, jitter elimination is common behavior. When > > they don???t work, i.e., something doesn???t arrive in time, both > > retransmit behavior and reaction to missing data are app-specific. > > > > Now let us look at the detnet service layer and compare with traditional > > Layer 4 functions. > > > > The service layer provides a flow control, in this particular case a > > rate-based one. This is similar to functionality found in DC-TCP or in a > > long gone past, IBM???s Rapid Transport Protocol, though we probably > > need only a simplified version of that. > > [David>] It???s important to distinguish flow control, which can be > > provide on a link-by-link basis from congestion control, which is a > > superset of flow control and can only be provided end-to-end. As DetNet > > eliminates all congestion, congestion control is not required. Specific > > example ??? DC-TCP is driven by ECN congestion signals (CE marks) coming > > back from the network, but if a DetNet node ever marks a DetNet packet > > as CE, something has gone seriously awry. > > > > The service layer performs reordering and duplication elimination > > functions. TCP does that too. > > [David>] Yes ??? but ??? TCP elimination of duplicate packets is > > intended only to deal with ???stupid network tricks??? ??? > > > > The service layer distributes packets and replicas over multiple paths > > (detnet transports). There???s a hint of that in MP-TCP though we need a > > powerful addition for replication and coding. > > [David>] DetNet differs because the replication and distribution happen > > at nodes in the network, not at end systems. For any TCP-like protocol > > (reliable delivery with congestion control), packet duplication is > > always a manifestation of a network ???bug,??? i.e., divergence from > > ideal network behavior. For the RE in DetNet PREOF, packet duplication > > is a network ???feature??? ;-). As of right now, packet duplication and > > elimination, plus associated reordering (PREOF) is not part of the IP > > solution ??? an additional encapsulation would likely be needed to > > support that functionality, and the result which would look a lot like a > > DetNet transport tunnel between nodes in the DetNet network. If anyone > > wants to work on this, reading draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels is > > RECOMMENDED. > > > > The detnet service layer is above the detnet transport layer which > > happens to be layer 3. > > > > All in all, this tells me that the detnet transport service layer > > operates at layer 4. > > > > I agree with you that there is an exact same need for TSN. Just like > > there is a need for IS-IS at both layers. > > [David>] Many of the IP networks over which DetNet operates will not be > > using IS-IS for IP (layer 3) routing ??? there are a number of > > alternatives. > > > > The IEEE may very well provide the same features in the talker, and we > > may very well be successful at sharing specifications just like we did > > for IS-IS. But for us I see the detnet service layer packaged as a Layer > > 4 that the rest of the IETF will call a Transport. Which makes the name > > collision very unfortunate, by the way. > > [David>] Bottom Line: I would suggest focusing discussion of a DetNet > > ???transport protocol??? on what has to be done via tunnels to make > > PREOF work for the IP solution (data plane), and would suggest using > > separate drafts for this and local loop traffic shaping. > > > > Note that my draft also discusses a L2 tokenized loop to avoid the > > buffer bloat at the detnet ingress, which is the piece that is analogous > > to the solution shown in the video. > > > > Take care, > > > > Pascal > > > > Le 14 nov. 2018 14:58, Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) > > > a crit : > > Dear Pascal, > > > > I consider the problem of ???DetNet transport layer??? all over again, > > and finally I make myself confused. So I send this email to search for > > help. Please correct me if you find anything wrong below: > > > > 1. TSN doesn???t need transport layer, because the talker and > > listener are TSN aware, and they can send the packets in some particular > > time slot based on the traffic specification; > > > > 2. DetNet does need transport layer, because talker and listener > > are not under control; > > > > 3. TCP can???t be used for DetNet , because TCP tries to find the > > ???fair bandwidth??? for the flows and it makes the flow rate changes > > all the time, while the sending rate of DetNet is supposed to be > > constant, and every packet should show up in an expected time slot; > > > > 4. UDP can???t be used for DetNet, because there is no rate > > control. If the talker sends the packets in the wrong pattern, UDP can > > do nothing. > > > > 5. So we need ???DetNet transport layer???, which can :a. Send the > > packet in a deterministic pattern; b. If anything goes wrong, make it go > > back to the correct pattern. > > > > 6. This, finally, makes the talker ???DetNet aware???(especially > > point a above), which is just the same as what happens in TSN. > > > > If this logic chain works, what we actually requires is just a DetNet > > talker rather than a new transport layer. > > > > > > Best Regards > > Xuesong > > > > > > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal > > Thubert (pthubert) > > Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:10 PM > > To: detnet@ietf.org; Black, David > > > > > Subject: [Detnet] pulling packets > > > > Dear all > > > > This video https://youtu.be/BO0QhaxBRr0 has a great illustration of the > > UNI packet pull method that we use in section ???5.1. Local Loop Flow > > Control??? of > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-01 to > > pull packets from the detnet unaware host from the detnet ingress box. > > The problem for detnet is that shaping in the detnet ingress can create > > bloat and uncontrolled end to end latency so we want to control the > > maximum amount of pending frames to keep the detnet ingress busy and > > push back to the L4/5 for anything above that. > > > > I hope you???ll love the video as much as I did; > > > > Pascal > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > > ---------- > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Thu Nov 15 00:42:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1253212D4ED for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:42:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XUkN8RdvEWr3 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:42:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A54E126BED for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:42:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 24548E80B02C7 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:42:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEML421-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.38) by LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:42:00 +0000 Received: from DGGEML510-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.55]) by dggeml421-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 16:41:51 +0800 From: Mach Chen To: Lou Berger , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Black, David" CC: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] pulling packets Thread-Index: AdR7DhnsUHHFp74PReiHX8huqYyB6AA4VCxgAAQZfzD//3ukgIAAYrcAgAANaoCAAPOFAP//ZBRQ Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:41:51 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com>, , <8D171B16-FD22-46CD-9D2B-24070F2DC433@cisco.com> <6EDA7130-E283-4D72-B9DD-0211BB12E763@cisco.com>, <0C722534-D42B-4822-8E64-354DAD00BB03@cisco.com> <16716367170.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <16716367170.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.194.201] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE292745197dggeml510mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:42:11 -0000 --_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE292745197dggeml510mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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(TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gNBr8-000Va9-WB; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:14:29 -0700 From: Lou Berger To: Norman Finn , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Black, David" CC: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" , Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 16:14:19 +0900 Message-ID: <1671637d4e8.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F80171E775@lhrpml504-mbx.exmail.huawei.com> References: <0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <8D171B16-FD22-46CD-9D2B-24070F2DC433@cisco.com> <6EDA7130-E283-4D72-B9DD-0211BB12E763@cisco.com> <0C722534-D42B-4822-8E64-354DAD00BB03@cisco.com> , <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F80171E775@lhrpml504-mbx.exmail.huawei.com> User-Agent: AquaMail/1.17.0-1318 (build: 101700009) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------16716387c31226227ce9a81206" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 208.54.80.230 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gNBr8-000Va9-WB X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: me65036d0.tmodns.net ([100.88.148.170]) [208.54.80.230]:35974 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 0 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 09:42:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------16716387c31226227ce9a81206 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ---------- On November 15, 2018 2:16:35 PM Norman Finn wrote: > 1. I think there is a use for a "Sort of like TCP, but is suitable for use > as a DetNet flow". > I go one step further and say that there is any use for a TCP congestion control algorithm that is DetNet aware. Lou > 2. You can run a number of TCP flows over a pipe offering the DetNet > service. More flows will use more of the bandwidth. Leftover bandwidth is > available to best effort flows, but not to other DetNet flows. This is > just like TCP over an Ethernet. Very useful when allocating "hard" > partitioned bandwidth. > > 2. You can run one TCP flow as a DetNet flow. You can run several of them. > Each flow wastes approx. 25% of its bandwidth, which is not reservable by > other DetNet flows. On the other hand, you can control exactly how much > bandwidth is available to each TCP flow, and all of the unused bandwidth is > available to best-effort TCP flows. This seems theoretically useful, but > I'm not sure that the extra cost over DSCP is worth the difference in > service compared to DSCP. > > -- Norm > > ________________________________ > From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Pascal Thubert > (pthubert) [pthubert@cisco.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 8:23 PM > To: Black, David > Cc: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong); detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets > > Hello David > > Please see below > > Le 15 nov. 2018 à 08:13, Black, David > > a écrit : > > Pascal, > > Thanks for the response – I want to follow up on some of Xuesong’s comments > that may shed some light on the lower layer pull functionality: > >> 3. TCP can’t be used for DetNet, because TCP tries to find the “fair >> bandwidth” for the flows and it makes the flow rate changes >> all the time, while the sending rate of DetNet is supposed to be constant, >> and every packet should show up in an expected time slot; > > Not exactly – in this “game”, DetNet gets to go first, and enforces the > time slot behavior. TCP sees what DetNet provides – it looks like a > network path with a max bandwidth that is limited by the reservation for > the DetNet flow, a rather stable round-trip-time and pacing/shaping > behavior (on the originating host, preferably). There are some details to > be worked out around what happens when TCP tries to overrun the DetNet flow > reservation, as that could build up a large queue on the host, but if the > reservation is sized to be larger than the TCP throughput, TCP should work > as the host queue should drain. > > I think Bob Briscoe presented on Sunday and very clearly what happens with > classical TCP - a seesaw pattern that fails to utilize the available > bandwidth. This coincides with my own observations when I implemented CIR > for IBM’s frame relay box a few years back. > > Bob also presented the benefits of DC TCP in that space. I understand that > his point matches your words in a corridor discussion we had. I also > understand that in the case of the fixed bandwidth. A rate adaptation is a > complex and undesired function. > > Attempting to achieve the service layer rate enforcement with a > window-based operation confuses a function that we have and its derivative > that we want, and causes additional buffers and latency between the egress > of the window based service layer and the ingress of the load enforcer - > the first detnet router. > > Conclusion is that we want a simple rate enforcement function in the > layer-4 « detnet transport « . Could we call it dettrans to avoid confusion ? > > Sorry I’m embarking now... > > Take care > > Pascal > > > > >> 4. UDP can’t be used for DetNet, because there is no rate control. If the >> talker sends the packets in the wrong pattern, UDP can do nothing. > That would be a “feature” here :-) because DetNet is taking care of the > details ;-). In contrast, TCP-like retransmit behavior may not be what’s > wanted in a hard real-time system. > >> 5. So we need “DetNet transport layer”, which can :a. Send the packet in a >> deterministic pattern; b. If anything goes wrong, make it go back to the >> correct pattern. > Every DetNet router does this. A pacer/shaper should deal nicely with > packets being sent in the wrong pattern. This is preferably located on > the originating host, as that’s a better place to build a queue than the > first hop switch/router. Again if the reservation is sized to be larger > than the traffic, the originating host queue should drain. > > In the reverse direction, where the traffic (TCP or UDP or …) exceeds the > reservation, something on the host needs to figure out what’s going on in > order to throttle TCP and/or the application, as the usual network > congestion feedback techniques (loss, ECN CE marks) don’t work for DetNet > traffic. This is where a network pull mechanism may be a useful part of > the solution, as getting the application to understand that it’s > overrunning its reservation is preferable to having the DetNet network > start dropping (or CE-marking) packets if a DetNet flow overruns its > reservation in order to get the application or transport protocol (e.g., > TCP) to slow down. > > As for the notion that PREOF for DetNet IP is a DetNet “transport protocol” > – I suppose that’s true, but I would suggest use of DetNet “PREOF tunnel > protocol” as clearer terminology. > > Thanks, --David > > From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 11:46 AM > To: Black, David > Cc: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong); detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets > > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > Please read PFC for priority flow control; > I did too much wireless this week :) > > Regards, > > Pascal > > Le 14 nov. 2018 à 23:41, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > a écrit : > I agree with the bottom line David, > > that was the intention; though I’m unclear if and where I can publish the > lower layer pull thing. I wrote it as an eye opener, hoping people would > see the issue. I retain Lou’s suggestion that PCFPFC is a beginning for it > though it is just a faucet with no control of what goes though when we want > a just in time per packet pull. > For your points below, I mentioned IS-IS as an illustration that we can > have a same operation at both layers, that is not so unusual. I’m not > saying detnet need IS-IS, that was really not the point. > > As for the functions I just point out the likeness to illustrate that the > detnet service layer is akin though far from identical to existing > variations of TCP. Seems we agree on this likeness. I do not read that you > oppose my conclusion that the detnet service layer can be implemented as a > detnet « transport protocol ». > > For now I need to read on the links you suggested. > > Many thanks for all this! > > Pascal > > Le 14 nov. 2018 à 22:52, Black, David > > a écrit : > Bottom Line: I would suggest focusing discussion of a DetNet “transport > protocol” on what has to be done via tunnels to make PREOF work for the IP > solution (data plane), and would suggest using separate drafts for this and > local loop traffic shaping. > > Details inline … > > Thanks, --David > > From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 4:59 AM > To: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) > Cc: detnet@ietf.org; Black, David > Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets > > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive > information. > Typos below, some thanks to my intelligent smart phone, and some to > confused-me. > > Please read: > All in all, this tells me that the detnet service layer operates at layer 4 > > Regards, > > Pascal > > Le 14 nov. 2018 à 16:53, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > a écrit : > Hello Xuesong: > > We do layers so as to communalise services so every applications does not > need to reinvent its own. > > The fact that every industrial application that adaptateur from serial but > to IP had to implement a jitter elimination buffer is an indication that we > failed to provide just that at a lower layer. > > Same goes for voice and video. But didn’t you see it on occasions? Those > jitter elimination techniques create a latency in the discussion or a delay > in the tv stream that you can actually observe. > [David>] When things work, jitter elimination is common behavior. When > they don’t work, i.e., something doesn’t arrive in time, both retransmit > behavior and reaction to missing data are app-specific. > > Now let us look at the detnet service layer and compare with traditional > Layer 4 functions. > > The service layer provides a flow control, in this particular case a > rate-based one. This is similar to functionality found in DC-TCP or in a > long gone past, IBM’s Rapid Transport Protocol, though we probably need > only a simplified version of that. > [David>] It’s important to distinguish flow control, which can be provide > on a link-by-link basis from congestion control, which is a superset of > flow control and can only be provided end-to-end. As DetNet eliminates all > congestion, congestion control is not required. Specific example – DC-TCP > is driven by ECN congestion signals (CE marks) coming back from the > network, but if a DetNet node ever marks a DetNet packet as CE, something > has gone seriously awry. > > The service layer performs reordering and duplication elimination > functions.. TCP does that too. > [David>] Yes … but … TCP elimination of duplicate packets is intended only > to deal with “stupid network tricks” … > > The service layer distributes packets and replicas over multiple paths > (detnet transports). There’s a hint of that in MP-TCP though we need a > powerful addition for replication and coding. > [David>] DetNet differs because the replication and distribution happen at > nodes in the network, not at end systems. For any TCP-like protocol > (reliable delivery with congestion control), packet duplication is always a > manifestation of a network “bug,” i.e., divergence from ideal network > behavior. For the RE in DetNet PREOF, packet duplication is a network > “feature” ;-). As of right now, packet duplication and elimination, plus > associated reordering (PREOF) is not part of the IP solution – an > additional encapsulation would likely be needed to support that > functionality, and the result which would look a lot like a DetNet > transport tunnel between nodes in the DetNet network. If anyone wants to > work on this, reading draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels is RECOMMENDED. > > The detnet service layer is above the detnet transport layer which happens > to be layer 3. > > All in all, this tells me that the detnet transport service layer operates > at layer 4. > > I agree with you that there is an exact same need for TSN. Just like there > is a need for IS-IS at both layers. > [David>] Many of the IP networks over which DetNet operates will not be > using IS-IS for IP (layer 3) routing – there are a number of alternatives. > > The IEEE may very well provide the same features in the talker, and we may > very well be successful at sharing specifications just like we did for > IS-IS. But for us I see the detnet service layer packaged as a Layer 4 that > the rest of the IETF will call a Transport. Which makes the name collision > very unfortunate, by the way. > [David>] Bottom Line: I would suggest focusing discussion of a DetNet > “transport protocol” on what has to be done via tunnels to make PREOF work > for the IP solution (data plane), and would suggest using separate drafts > for this and local loop traffic shaping. > > Note that my draft also discusses a L2 tokenized loop to avoid the buffer > bloat at the detnet ingress, which is the piece that is analogous to the > solution shown in the video. > > Take care, > > Pascal > > Le 14 nov. 2018 à 14:58, Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) > > a écrit : > Dear Pascal, > > I consider the problem of “DetNet transport layer” all over again, and > finally I make myself confused. So I send this email to search for help. > Please correct me if you find anything wrong below: > > 1. TSN doesn’t need transport layer, because the talker and listener > are TSN aware, and they can send the packets in some particular time slot > based on the traffic specification; > > 2. DetNet does need transport layer, because talker and listener are > not under control; > > 3. TCP can’t be used for DetNet , because TCP tries to find the “fair > bandwidth” for the flows and it makes the flow rate changes all the time, > while the sending rate of DetNet is supposed to be constant, and every > packet should show up in an expected time slot; > > 4. UDP can’t be used for DetNet, because there is no rate control. If > the talker sends the packets in the wrong pattern, UDP can do nothing. > > 5. So we need “DetNet transport layer”, which can :a. Send the packet > in a deterministic pattern; b. If anything goes wrong, make it go back to > the correct pattern. > > 6. This, finally, makes the talker “DetNet aware”(especially point a > above), which is just the same as what happens in TSN. > > If this logic chain works, what we actually requires is just a DetNet > talker rather than a new transport layer. > > > Best Regards > Xuesong > > > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert > (pthubert) > Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:10 PM > To: detnet@ietf.org; Black, David > > > Subject: [Detnet] pulling packets > > Dear all > > This video https://youtu.be/BO0QhaxBRr0 has a great illustration of the UNI > packet pull method that we use in section “5.1. Local Loop Flow Control” > of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-01 to > pull packets from the detnet unaware host from the detnet ingress box. The > problem for detnet is that shaping in the detnet ingress can create bloat > and uncontrolled end to end latency so we want to control the maximum > amount of pending frames to keep the detnet ingress busy and push back to > the L4/5 for anything above that. > > I hope you’ll love the video as much as I did; > > Pascal > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > ---------- > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > ------------16716387c31226227ce9a81206 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

----= ------
On November 15, 2018 2:16:35 PM Norman Finn <norman.finn@mail01.huawei.c= om> wrote:

>= 1. I think there  is a use for a "Sort of like TCP, but is suitable f= or use as a DetNet flow".
>

I go one step further and say= that there is any use for a TCP congestion control algorithm that is DetNe= t aware.

Lou


> 2. You can run a number of TCP flows over a pipe offering the DetNet s= ervice.  More flows will use more of the bandwidth.  Leftover ban= dwidth is available to best effort flows, but not to other DetNet flows.&nb= sp; This is just like TCP over an Ethernet.  Very useful when allocati= ng "hard" partitioned bandwidth.
>
> 2. You can run one TCP flow as a DetNet flow.  You can run severa= l of them.  Each flow wastes approx. 25% of its bandwidth, which is no= t reservable by other DetNet flows.  On the other hand, you can contro= l exactly how much bandwidth is available to each TCP flow, and all of the = unused bandwidth is available to best-effort TCP flows.  This seems th= eoretically useful, but I'm not sure that the extra cost over DSCP is worth= the difference in service compared to DSCP.
>
> -- Norm
>
> ________________________________
> From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Pascal Thubert (pt= hubert) [pthubert@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 8:23 PM
> To: Black, David
> Cc: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong); detnet@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets
>
> Hello David
>
> Please see below
>
> Le 15 nov. 2018 =C3=A0 08:13, Black, David <David.Black@dell.com<= ;mailto:David.Black@dell.com>> a =C3=A9crit :
>
> Pascal,
>
> Thanks for the response =E2=80=93 I want to follow up on some of Xueso= ng=E2=80=99s comments that may shed some light on the lower layer pull func= tionality:
>
>> 3.  TCP can=E2=80=99t be used for DetNet, because TCP tries t= o find the =E2=80=9Cfair bandwidth=E2=80=9D for the flows and it makes the = flow rate changes
>> all the time, while the sending rate of DetNet is supposed to be c= onstant, and every packet should show up in an expected time slot;
>
> Not exactly =E2=80=93 in this =E2=80=9Cgame=E2=80=9D, DetNet gets to g= o first, and enforces the time slot behavior.  TCP sees what DetNet pr= ovides =E2=80=93 it looks like a network path with a max bandwidth that is = limited by the reservation for the DetNet flow, a rather stable round-trip-= time and pacing/shaping behavior (on the originating host, preferably).&nbs= p; There are some details to be worked out around what happens when TCP tri= es to overrun the DetNet flow reservation, as that could build up a large q= ueue on the host, but if the reservation is sized to be larger than the TCP= throughput, TCP should work as the host queue should drain.
>
> I think Bob Briscoe presented  on Sunday and very clearly what ha= ppens with classical TCP - a seesaw pattern that fails to utilize the avail= able bandwidth. This coincides with my own observations when I implemented = CIR for IBM=E2=80=99s frame relay box a few years back.
>
> Bob also presented the benefits of DC TCP in that space. I understand = that his point matches your words in a corridor discussion we had. I also u= nderstand that in the case of the fixed bandwidth. A rate adaptation is a c= omplex and undesired function.
>
> Attempting to achieve the service layer rate enforcement with a window= -based operation confuses a function that we have and its derivative that w= e want, and causes additional buffers and latency between the egress of the= window based service layer and the ingress of the load enforcer - the firs= t detnet router.
>
> Conclusion is that we want a simple rate enforcement function in the l= ayer-4 =C2=AB detnet transport =C2=AB . Could we call it dettrans to avoid = confusion ?
>
> Sorry I=E2=80=99m embarking now...
>
> Take care
>
> Pascal
>
>
>
>
>> 4.  UDP can=E2=80=99t be used for DetNet, because there is no= rate control. If the talker sends the packets in the wrong pattern, UDP ca= n do nothing.
> That would be a =E2=80=9Cfeature=E2=80=9D here :-) because DetNet is t= aking care of the details ;-).  In contrast, TCP-like retransmit behav= ior may not be what=E2=80=99s wanted in a hard real-time system.
>
>> 5.  So we need =E2=80=9CDetNet transport layer=E2=80=9D, whic= h can :a. Send the packet in a deterministic pattern; b. If anything goes w= rong, make it go back to the correct pattern.
> Every DetNet router does this. A pacer/shaper should deal nicely with = packets being sent in the wrong pattern.   This is preferably loc= ated on the originating host, as that=E2=80=99s a better place to build a q= ueue than the first hop switch/router.  Again if the reservation is si= zed to be larger than the traffic, the originating host queue should drain.=
>
> In the reverse direction, where the traffic (TCP or UDP or =E2=80=A6) = exceeds the reservation, something on the host needs to figure out what=E2= =80=99s going on in order to throttle TCP and/or the application, as the us= ual network congestion feedback techniques (loss, ECN CE marks) don=E2=80= =99t work for DetNet traffic.   This is where a network pull mech= anism may be a useful part of the solution, as getting the application to u= nderstand that it=E2=80=99s overrunning its reservation is preferable to ha= ving  the DetNet network start dropping (or CE-marking) packets if a D= etNet flow overruns its reservation in order to get the application or tran= sport protocol (e.g., TCP) to slow down.
>
> As for the notion that PREOF for DetNet IP is a DetNet =E2=80=9Ctransp= ort protocol=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 I suppose that=E2=80=99s true, but I would = suggest use of DetNet =E2=80=9CPREOF tunnel protocol=E2=80=9D as clearer te= rminology.
>
> Thanks, --David
>
> From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 11:46 AM
> To: Black, David
> Cc: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong); detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.= org>
> Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets
>
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
> Please read PFC for priority flow control;
> I did too much wireless this week :)
>
> Regards,
>
> Pascal
>
> Le 14 nov. 2018 =C3=A0 23:41, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@c= isco.com<mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>> a =C3=A9crit :
> I agree with the bottom line David,
>
> that was the intention; though I=E2=80=99m unclear if and where I can = publish the lower layer pull thing. I wrote it as an eye opener, hoping peo= ple would see the issue. I retain Lou=E2=80=99s suggestion that PCFPFC is a= beginning for it though it is just a faucet with no control of what goes t= hough when we want a just in time per packet pull.
> For your points below, I mentioned IS-IS as an illustration that we ca= n have a same operation at both layers, that is not so unusual. I=E2=80=99m= not saying detnet need IS-IS, that was really not the point.
>
> As for the functions I just point out the likeness to illustrate that = the detnet service layer is akin though far from identical to existing vari= ations of TCP. Seems we agree on this likeness. I do not read that you oppo= se my conclusion that the detnet service layer can be implemented as a detn= et =C2=AB transport protocol =C2=BB.
>
> For now I need to read on the links you suggested.
>
> Many thanks for all this!
>
> Pascal
>
> Le 14 nov. 2018 =C3=A0 22:52, Black, David <David.Black@dell.com<= ;mailto:David.Black@dell.com>> a =C3=A9crit :
> Bottom Line:  I would suggest focusing discussion of a DetNet =E2= =80=9Ctransport protocol=E2=80=9D on what has to be done via tunnels to mak= e PREOF work for the IP solution (data plane), and would suggest using sepa= rate drafts for this and local loop traffic shaping.
>
> Details inline =E2=80=A6
>
> Thanks, --David
>
> From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 4:59 AM
> To: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)
> Cc: detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>; Black, David
> Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets
>
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
> Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensi= tive information.
> Typos below, some thanks to my intelligent smart phone, and some to co= nfused-me.
>
> Please read:
> All in all, this tells me that the detnet service layer operates at la= yer 4
>
> Regards,
>
> Pascal
>
> Le 14 nov. 2018 =C3=A0 16:53, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@c= isco.com<mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>> a =C3=A9crit :
> Hello Xuesong:
>
> We do layers so as to communalise services so every applications does = not need to reinvent its own.
>
> The fact that every industrial application that adaptateur from serial= but to IP had to implement a jitter elimination buffer is an indication th= at we failed to provide just that at a lower layer.
>
> Same goes for voice and video. But didn=E2=80=99t you see it on occasi= ons? Those jitter elimination techniques create a latency in the discussion= or a delay in the tv stream that you can actually observe.
> [David>] When things work, jitter elimination is common behavior.&n= bsp; When they don=E2=80=99t work, i.e., something doesn=E2=80=99t arrive i= n time, both retransmit behavior and reaction to missing data are app-speci= fic.
>
> Now let us look at the detnet service layer and compare with tradition= al Layer 4 functions.
>
>  The service layer provides a flow control, in this particular ca= se a rate-based one. This is similar to functionality found in DC-TCP or in= a long gone past, IBM=E2=80=99s Rapid Transport Protocol, though we probab= ly need only a simplified version of that.
> [David>] It=E2=80=99s important to distinguish flow control, which = can be provide on a link-by-link basis from congestion control, which is a = superset of flow control and can only be provided end-to-end.  As DetN= et eliminates all congestion, congestion control is not required.  Spe= cific example =E2=80=93 DC-TCP is driven by ECN congestion signals (CE mark= s) coming back from the network, but if a DetNet node ever marks a DetNet p= acket as CE, something has gone seriously awry.
>
> The service layer performs reordering and duplication elimination func= tions.. TCP does that too.
> [David>] Yes =E2=80=A6 but =E2=80=A6 TCP elimination of duplicate p= ackets is intended only to deal with =E2=80=9Cstupid network tricks=E2=80= =9D =E2=80=A6
>
> The service layer distributes packets and replicas over multiple paths= (detnet transports). There=E2=80=99s a hint of that in MP-TCP though we ne= ed a powerful addition for replication and coding.
> [David>] DetNet differs because the replication and distribution ha= ppen at nodes in the network, not at end systems.  For any TCP-like pr= otocol (reliable delivery with congestion control), packet duplication is a= lways a manifestation of a network =E2=80=9Cbug,=E2=80=9D i.e., divergence = from ideal network behavior.  For the RE in DetNet PREOF, packet dupli= cation is a network =E2=80=9Cfeature=E2=80=9D ;-).  As of right now, p= acket duplication and elimination, plus associated reordering (PREOF) = is not part of the IP solution =E2=80=93 an additional encapsulation would= likely be needed to support that functionality, and the result which would= look a lot like a DetNet transport tunnel between nodes in the DetNet netw= ork.  If anyone wants to work on this, reading draft-ietf-intarea-tunn= els is RECOMMENDED.
>
> The detnet service layer is above the detnet transport layer which hap= pens to be layer 3.
>
> All in all, this tells me that the detnet transport service layer oper= ates at layer 4.
>
> I agree with you that there is an exact same need for TSN. Just like t= here is a need for IS-IS at both layers.
> [David>] Many of the IP networks over which DetNet operates will no= t be using IS-IS for IP (layer 3) routing =E2=80=93 there are a number of a= lternatives.
>
> The IEEE may very well provide the same features in the talker, and we= may very well be successful at sharing specifications just like we did for= IS-IS. But for us I see the detnet service layer packaged as a Layer 4 tha= t the rest of the IETF will call a Transport. Which makes the name collisio= n very unfortunate, by the way.
> [David>] Bottom Line:  I would suggest focusing discussion of = a DetNet =E2=80=9Ctransport protocol=E2=80=9D on what has to be done via tu= nnels to make PREOF work for the IP solution (data plane), and would sugges= t using separate drafts for this and local loop traffic shaping.
>
> Note that my draft also discusses a L2 tokenized loop to avoid the buf= fer bloat at the detnet ingress, which is the piece that is analogous to th= e solution shown in the video.
>
> Take care,
>
> Pascal
>
> Le 14 nov. 2018 =C3=A0 14:58, Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) <gengxueso= ng@huawei.com<mailto:gengxuesong@huawei.com>> a =C3=A9crit :
> Dear Pascal,
>
> I consider the problem of =E2=80=9CDetNet transport layer=E2=80=9D all= over again, and finally I make myself confused. So I send this email to se= arch for help. Please correct me if you find anything wrong below:
>
> 1.       TSN doesn=E2=80=99t need transp= ort layer, because the talker and listener are TSN aware, and they can send= the packets in some particular time slot based on the traffic specificatio= n;
>
> 2.       DetNet does need transport laye= r, because talker and listener are not under control;
>
> 3.       TCP can=E2=80=99t be used for D= etNet , because TCP tries to find the =E2=80=9Cfair bandwidth=E2=80=9D for = the flows and it makes the flow rate changes all the time, while the sendin= g rate of DetNet is supposed to be constant, and every packet should show u= p in an expected time slot;
>
> 4.       UDP can=E2=80=99t be used for D= etNet, because there is no rate control. If the talker sends the packets in= the wrong pattern, UDP can do nothing.
>
> 5.       So we need =E2=80=9CDetNet tran= sport layer=E2=80=9D, which can :a. Send the packet in a deterministic patt= ern; b. If anything goes wrong, make it go back to the correct pattern.
>
> 6.       This, finally, makes the talker= =E2=80=9CDetNet aware=E2=80=9D(especially point a above), which is just th= e same as what happens in TSN.
>
> If this logic chain works, what we actually requires is just a DetNet = talker rather than a new transport layer.
>
>
> Best Regards
> Xuesong
>
>
> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thub= ert (pthubert)
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:10 PM
> To: detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>; Black, David <Da= vid.Black@dell..com<mailto:David.Black@dell.com>>
> Subject: [Detnet] pulling packets
>
> Dear all
>
> This video https://youtu.be/B= O0QhaxBRr0 has a great illustration of the UNI packet pull method that = we use in section =E2=80=9C5.1.  Local Loop Flow Control=E2=80=9D of <= a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-= 01">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-01= to pull packets from the detnet unaware host from the detnet ingress box. = The problem for detnet is that shaping in the detnet ingress can create blo= at and uncontrolled end to end latency so we want to control the maximum am= ount of pending frames to keep the detnet ingress busy and push back to the= L4/5 for anything above that.
>
> I hope you=E2=80=99ll love the video as much as I did;
>
> Pascal
> _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
> https://www.i= etf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
> _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org<mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
> https://www.i= etf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
>
>
>
> ----------
> _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org
> https://www.i= etf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
>

------------16716387c31226227ce9a81206-- From nobody Thu Nov 15 05:18:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5E80128D0C; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:18:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=hs-esslingen.de Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YikVPRBs03rp; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:18:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.hs-esslingen.de (mail.hs-esslingen.de [134.108.32.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A1AE126DBF; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:18:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.hs-esslingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 857B825A2A; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:18:10 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=hs-esslingen.de; s=mail; t=1542287890; bh=mUukYTNvOQd+tMMlCy1AuQKP2mSUrydE0UmMI/qXAyo=; h=From:To:CC:Subject:Date:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=x0FQJI9zoaFoRoFg/Nzt3/FSBIIsMzH+7yz18kEL3cLvIg767gJ+/vkvw9dchacgo ki69bnP9XGoIAMlonmld/tTI3NA/kgfv445DnAuxGR7DzwT/0xRJZVYqjRnCq2KzPS w8am32ogVMsAojOwWVpmmkPbjI7BEV88ir0U+ius= X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-2.7.1 (20120429) (Debian) at hs-esslingen.de Received: from mail.hs-esslingen.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (hs-esslingen.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id woB1VLU8p0DA; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:18:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from rznt8101.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de (rznt8101.hs-esslingen.de [134.108.29.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.hs-esslingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:18:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from RZNT8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de ([169.254.3.25]) by rznt8101.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de ([fe80::bd73:d6a9:24d7:95f1%10]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:18:09 +0100 From: "Scharf, Michael" To: Toerless Eckert CC: "Black, David" , Lou Berger , 'J?nos Farkas' , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , DetNet WG , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 Thread-Index: AQHUfJc7SjWwwPVPU0Kw0Qdv1i6Da6VQu7FA Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 13:18:09 +0000 Message-ID: <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D15BB90@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> References: <0bb7176c-c386-b863-a4f8-06254f4627ab@ericsson.com> <1705d15c-c7ba-c76f-88db-c75f1a88db0f@ericsson.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D143BE1@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D15213B@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D152997@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <20181115035637.7lzevvoeulr7qm7h@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <20181115035637.7lzevvoeulr7qm7h@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [134.108.2.171] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 13:18:18 -0000 My comments are about the question what happens if DetNet packets get dropp= ed despite that this should _never_ happen in normal operation. There can b= e different reasons for packet drops in a managed network. One root cause w= ould be that the DetNet traffic gets routed erroneously over a DetNet unawa= re node somewhere in the Internet and then causes harm there. For inelastic traffic, if such packet loss persists, that flow (at least on= the path where losses occur) may need to be blocked for safety reasons. I = assume that is what you suggest in your last sentence? Michael -----Original Message----- From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:tte@cs.fau.de]=20 Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 4:57 AM To: Scharf, Michael Cc: Black, David; Lou Berger; 'J?nos Farkas'; tsv-art@ietf.org; DetNet WG; = draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detne= t-architecture-08 On Fri, Nov 09, 2018 at 06:38:30AM +0000, Scharf, Michael wrote: > Indeed. >=20 > And, as noted in my earlier way, depending on how the PRF is realized Det= Net may even shield DetNet traffic from packet losses due to congestion, i.= e., even traffic that would be able to react to congestion may not react du= e to DetNet. If DetNet is able to mask congestion from the carried traffic,= special care is needed inside DetNet. I don't think we should complicate the matters by talking about DetNet flows that may react to congestion. I don't think this is in scope of the current architecture. AFAIK, all DetNet flows have a known envelope, and DetNet flows should be shutdown (filtered/blocked) by the DetNet service whenever they exceed the envelope (*). Within the envelope of DetNet flows, there is no useful support for congestion loss, because congestion constitutes a misconfiguration or misbehavior of the DetNet service.=20 PEF/POF could actually act as a circuit breaker using the maximum permissible loss of the envelope as a trigger to make the PRF stop the flow. That would be a good feature for the PREOF. Cheers Toerless (*) I am not sure if DetNet intends to make such a strong statement, but from what i heard, this is usually done in TSN applications: If you have an interlocked system and a sender exceeds its envelope, that indicates a malfunctioning sender, and there is no way to design a safe&secure system with randomnly malfunctioning components. Shutting down a component by stopping its traffic is a supported system behavior resulting typically in bringing up redundant components or shutting down parts of the system. Unknown component behavior results in unpredictable system behavior, often catastrophic. > > That quoted comment is followed by a "reduce to previous case" argument > > about networking in general: > >=20 > > > > WRT escaped traffic, as I mentioned in today's session, I really > > think > > > > this is no difference between escaped DetNet traffic and traffic > > > > delivered over an uncongested network to a peer (congested or > > > > uncongested) network. > >=20 > > Unfortunately, that argument leads to a contradiction, namely a > > conclusion that congestion control is not necessary for the Internet, > > which is known to be wrong. Having arrived at a result that > > mathematicians would call "proof by contradiction," one of the > > assumptions that lead to this point has to be wrong, but which one? > >=20 > > The "clear, simple and wrong" (Mencken) approach to resolving this > > would be to focus on the inelastic traffic and require that all DetNet > > traffic MUST be congestion controlled. I'm not advocating this, and > > neither is Michael. > >=20 > > A more subtle approach (with credit to Deb Brungard for an insightful > > discussion after RTGAREA yesterday) is to recognize that DetNet is a > > Controlled Environment, to which different rules apply than the > > Internet and networks in general. For the definition of Controlled > > Environment, see Section 3.6 of RFC 8085 > > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8085#section-3.6). For now, please > > ignore the material in that section on safety, robustness and > > corruption, as inapplicable to this discussion. FWIW, that material > > was motivated by the incessant attempts to optimize out UDP checksums > > without serious consideration of the resulting packet corruption risks > > and the potential consequences thereof. Viewing DetNet as a Controlled > > Environment, this discussion is then primarily about what to require/do > > at the boundary between the DetNet Controlled Environment and other > > networks. I've been there, done that for other Controlled Environments > > ... and have the scars ... from the worked examples in RFC 7510 > > (MPLS/UDP) and RFC 8086's TMCE (Traffic Management Controlled > > Environment) applicability scenario for GRE/UDP. Those two RFCs may be > > helpful background reading. > >=20 > > The good news here is that we are not as far from agreeing on a > > solution as might appear from the length of this discussion. Going > > back to a couple of chunks of text that Janos proposed earlier: > >=20 > > NEW: > > This document provides the overall Architecture for Deterministic > > Networking (DetNet), which provides a capability for the delivery > > of > > data flows with extremely low packet loss rates and bounded end- > > to- > > end delivery latency within a network domain. DetNet is for > > networks > > that are under a single administrative control or within a closed > > group > > of administrative control; these include campus-wide networks and > > private WANs. DetNet is not for large groups of domains such as > > the > > Internet. > >=20 > > That reads to me as a clear statement that a DetNet network is a > > Controlled Environment, so I would hope that we're in agreement on > > that. > >=20 > > NEW: > > Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of possible > > failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet network > > to > > detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, or > > at > > the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, filters and > > policers can take action to discard offending packets or flows, > > or > > trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting down > > the offending interface. > >=20 > > That proposed text actually contains two circuit breakers, "shutting > > down the offending DetNet flow" or "shutting down the offending > > interface." So far, so good, but what's missing is text on deployment > > requirements of the mechanisms described in that text, particularly at > > the edges of DetNet networks. >=20 > Yep, strict deployment requirements are needed. >=20 > > Text that requires deployment of "filters and policers ... [that] > > discard offending [DetNet] packets and flows" at the boundaries between > > DetNet and non-DetNet networks would go a long way towards resolving > > this discussion. I would suggest expanding "offending" into text that > > includes all unauthorized DetNet traffic and all unexpected DetNet > > traffic. Once that's done, the "circuit breaker" discussion becomes > > more tractable, as the discarding of all DetNet traffic that would > > otherwise escape the DetNet network reduces the "circuit breaker" > > discussion to the existing DetNet material measures that need to be > > taken inside a DetNet network to protect delivery of DetNet service. >=20 > As already mentioned, it is possible that some solutions don't need any "= circuit breaker" as they achieve sufficient robustness by some other means.= I only ask for text that explains how to avoid harm from non-DetNet networ= ks, not for a specific solution. >=20 > Michael >=20 >=20 > >=20 > > Thanks, --David > >=20 > >=20 > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Scharf, Michael [mailto:Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de] > > > Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 1:12 PM > > > To: Lou Berger; Black, David; 'J=E1nos Farkas' > > > Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet- > > architecture.all@ietf.org > > > Subject: RE: [Tsv-art] [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft- > > ietf-detnet- > > > architecture-08 > > > > > > > > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > > Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for > > sensitive > > > information. > > > > > > > > > Inline > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Tsv-art [mailto:tsv-art-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou > > Berger > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 8:45 AM > > > > To: Black, David; Scharf, Michael; 'J=E1nos Farkas' > > > > Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft- > > ietf- > > > > detnet-architecture-08 > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > See below for in-line responses > > > > > > > > On 11/5/2018 12:21 AM, Black, David wrote: > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > >>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on > > network > > > > robustness > > > > >>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For > > instance, > > > > >>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet > > > > replication could > > > > >>> severely and permanently congest a network and cause harm. > > > > > [... snip ...] > > > > >> NEW: > > > > >> Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of > > possible > > > > >> failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet > > network to > > > > >> detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, or > > at > > > > >> the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, filters and > > > > >> policers can take action to discard offending packets or flows, > > or > > > > >> trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting > > down > > > > >> the offending interface. > > > > >> > > > > >> [ms] That does not address my concern. As I wrote already, I > > believe > > > > this > > > > >> document has to discuss the applicability of circuit breakers > > > > according to RFC > > > > >> 8084. > > > > > I concur with Michael's implied concern that the "should" in the > > NEW > > > > text > > > > > is woefully inadequate. The provisions to prevent escaped non- > > > > elastic traffic > > > > > from causing damage elsewhere need to be mandatory particularly > > if > > > > DetNet > > > > > and non-DetNet networks are interconnected. The above > > > > > text on filters doesn't appear to cover escape from the DetNet > > > > network, > > > > > and needs to do so. Deployment of filters at DetNet nodes that > > drop > > > > all > > > > > DetNet traffic that tries to escape, and that drop all > > misdirected > > > > DetNet > > > > > traffic should address most of this problem. > > > > > > > > > > Once that is done, I think a discussion of circuit breakers is > > > > needed, in the > > > > > form of Detnet service mechanisms that can shut down (cease > > > > transmission > > > > > of) a flow that is being sent entirely into the bit-bucket by a > > > > downstream filter, > > > > > due to misconfiguration, failure, etc. > > > > > > > > I think we have a bit of a disconnect of what DetNet service > > delivers. > > > > > > > > DetNet does not itself impact any Transport protocol=A0 (e.g., UDP, > > TCP) > > > > so itself does not *produce* elastic or non-elastic traffic. > > > > > > First, the question whether DetNet *produces* elastic or non-elastic > > traffic does > > > not matter for the applicability of circuit breakers. Section 3 of > > RFC 8084 states: > > > > > > CBs are RECOMMENDED for IETF protocols and tunnels that carry non- > > > congestion-controlled Internet flows and for traffic aggregates. > > > This includes traffic sent using a network tunnel. Designers of > > > other protocols and tunnel encapsulations also ought to consider > > the > > > use of these techniques as a last resort to protect traffic that > > > shares the network path being used. > > > > > > Section 3.2.1.1 of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-09 explains > > explicitly that > > > DetNet can carry non-congestion-controlled traffic: > > > > > > Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled, i.e., its > > > transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion > > > notification. > > > > > > So, clearly the condition of carrying non-congestion-controlled flows > > or traffic > > > aggregates applies to the DetNet architecture. And, as a result, the > > > RECOMMENDED in RFC 8084 is in principle applicable to DetNet. Also, > > note that > > > the RECOMMENDED in RFC 8084 is not limited to tunnels. > > > > > > As pointed out by David, the key question is whether, and how, the > > DetNet > > > architecture prevents that non-congestion controlled traffic escapes > > from a > > > controlled environment into the Internet. As also explained in RFC > > 8084, this > > > question in particular matters for failure scenarios. > > > > > > As TSV-ART reviewer, I insist in a discussion of this problem in > > draft-ietf-detnet- > > > architecture. And I believe that a reference to RFC 8084 is needed in > > draft-ietf- > > > detnet-architecture. > > > > > > Note that the wording in RFC 8084 is RECOMMENDED and not MUST, i.e., > > it is > > > possible that circuit breakers may not be needed for certain > > solutions. As an > > > example, MPLS traffic may not easily escape from a managed MPLS > > network. > > > > > > > > > Second, in my TSV-ART review I have explicitly mentioned the DetNet > > Packet > > > Replication Function (PRF). Replicating non-elastic traffic may > > create additional > > > challenges if the replicated packets can somehow escape into the > > Internet, e.g., > > > in failure cases. For instance, as far as I understand draft-ietf- > > detnet- > > > architecture, I assume the PRF can replicate non-congestion- > > controlled traffic > > > and forward it along different paths. If one of these paths escapes > > to the > > > Internet, to the Internet the PRF could basically be a producer of > > non-congestion > > > controlled traffic, and that traffic could cause significant harm in > > the Internet. > > > Also, note that in that case it may not necessarily help if the > > traffic carried by > > > DetNet is elastic, e.g., if DetNet carries TCP traffic. For instance, > > if other paths > > > used by the PRF within the DetNet domain would deliver all packets, > > the > > > congestion control in TCP would not never be triggered as each packet > > gets > > > indeed delivered over one of the paths. So, an unelastic traffic > > stream would > > > escale into the Internet and never back off. Unless I miss something, > > DetNet > > > needs counter-means to prevent this sort of issues. > > > > > > As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe draft-ietf-detnet-architecture needs a > > dedicated > > > discussion whether the PRF can cause harm and, if so, how to avoid > > such harm. > > > > > > > DetNet operates at Layer 3 and basically provides detnet flows with > > a > > > > service equivalent to IntServ's Guaranteed Quality of Service.=A0 A= s > > > > such, > > > > DetNet flows basically operate as if the network is uncongested. > > > > > > RFC 8084 exactly addresses that case. The question is not the normal > > operation > > > of the network, but abnormal cases. > > > > > > > WRT escaped traffic, as I mentioned in today's session, I really > > think > > > > this is no difference between escaped DetNet traffic and traffic > > > > delivered over an uncongested network to a peer (congested or > > > > uncongested) network. > > > > > > That comes down to how the DetNet network deals with abnormal > > situations at > > > the edges, e.g., for the problems mentioned in RFC 8084: > > > > > > o anomalous traffic that exceeds the provisioned capacity (or > > whose > > > traffic characteristics exceed the threshold configured for the > > > CB); > > > > > > o traffic generated by an application at a time when the > > provisioned > > > network capacity is being utilized for other purposes; > > > > > > o routing changes that cause additional traffic to start using > > the > > > path monitored by the CB; > > > > > > o misconfiguration of a service/network device where the capacity > > > available is insufficient to support the current traffic > > > aggregate; > > > > > > o misconfiguration of an admission controller or traffic policer > > > that allows more traffic than expected across the path > > monitored > > > by the CB. > > > > > > According to the last point, misconfiguration of filters/policies is > > one of the > > > challenges to look at. > > > > > > > Based on all this, I'm not sure how or why a=A0 discussion of circu= it > > > > breakers is needed. > > > > > > RFC 8084 represents IETF community consensus. And in my reading the > > DetNet > > > architecture falls into the type of solutions discussed in RFC 8084. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, --David > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> From: Tsv-art [mailto:tsv-art-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > > Scharf, > > > > Michael > > > > >> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:44 PM > > > > >> To: 'J=E1nos Farkas' > > > > >> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > >> Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf- > > detnet- > > > > architecture-08 > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > > > >> Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for > > > > sensitive > > > > >> information. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Hi Janos, > > > > >> > > > > >> Thanks for the reply. My comments are inline [ms]. > > > > >> > > > > >> I have omitted all proposed changes that work for me. > > > > >> > > > > >> Michael > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> From: J=E1nos Farkas > > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 10:56 AM > > > > >> To: Scharf, Michael > > > > >> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet- > > architecture.all@ietf.org; > > > > DetNet WG > > > > >> > > > > >> Subject: Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > architecture-08 > > > > >> > > > > >> Hi Michael, > > > > >> > > > > >> Thank you very much for the thorough review and good comments! > > > > >> > > > > >> Please find below in-line responses and how we plan to update > > the > > > > draft to > > > > >> resolve your comments. > > > > >> > > > > >> Best regards, > > > > >> Janos > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On 9/29/2018 12:24 AM, Michael Scharf wrote: > > > > >>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf > > > > >>> Review result: Ready with Issues > > > > >>> > > > > >>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" > > > > >>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall > > framework > > > > for > > > > >>> Deterministic Networking. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues as > > > > >>> detailed below. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Michael > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Major issues: > > > > >> [...] > > > > >> > > > > >>> DetNet > > > > >>> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices > > > > >>> transporting DetNet traffic. That assumption should be > > explicitly > > > > >>> spelt out early in the document, e.g., in the introduction. > > > > >> Actually, some form of DetNet support is required from each node > > > > that > > > > >> transports DetNet traffic. For instance, DetNet flows have to be > > > > recognized in > > > > >> order not to spoil their QoS at the minimum. > > > > >> > > > > >> [ms] I look for an clear explanation in the architecture > > document of > > > > what "some > > > > >> form of DetNet support" exactly means. For instance, is standard > > > > MPLS TE > > > > >> without any DetNet support good enough for an LSR on the IP/MPLS > > > > path used > > > > >> by DetNet traffic, or not? As an example, when I read the > > following > > > > paragraph in > > > > >> draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-mpls-01 ... > > > > >> > > > > >> Transit nodes are normal MPLS Label Switching Routers > > (LSRs). > > > > They > > > > >> are generally unaware of the special requirements of DetNet > > > > flows, > > > > >> although they need to provide traffic engineering services > > and > > > > proper > > > > >> QoS to the LSPs associated with DetNet flows to enhance the > > > > prospect > > > > >> of the LSPs meeting the DetNet service requirements. Some > > > > >> implementations of transit nodes may be DetNet aware, but > > such > > > > nodes > > > > >> just support the DetNet transport layer. > > > > >> > > > > >> ... I could maybe assume that actually there can be "transit > > nodes" > > > > that do not > > > > >> require *any* sort of DetNet support or DetNet awareness. Is > > that > > > > correct? I > > > > >> think the architecture document has to be clear on such > > fundamental > > > > questions. > > > > >> > > > > >> The Introduction could be extended to clarify, e.g., the third > > > > paragraph: > > > > >> > > > > >> OLD: > > > > >> A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. That > > is, > > > > the presence of > > > > >> DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the > > benefits > > > > offered > > > > >> DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, prevent > > existing > > > > QoS > > > > >> mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, subject to the > > > > bandwidth > > > > >> required for the DetNet flows. A single source-destination pair > > can > > > > trade both > > > > >> DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End systems and applications need > > not > > > > >> instantiate special interfaces for DetNet flows. Networks are > > not > > > > restricted to > > > > >> certain topologies; connectivity is not restricted. Any > > application > > > > that generates > > > > >> a data flow that can be usefully characterized as having a > > maximum > > > > bandwidth > > > > >> should be able to take advantage of DetNet, as long as the > > necessary > > > > resources > > > > >> can be reserved. Reservations can be made by the application > > itself, > > > > via network > > > > >> management, by an application???s controller, or by other means, > > e.g., > > > > a dynamic > > > > >> control plane (e.g., [RFC2205]). > > > > >> > > > > >> NEW: > > > > >> A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. That > > is, > > > > the presence of > > > > >> DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the > > benefits > > > > offered > > > > >> DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, prevent > > existing > > > > QoS > > > > >> mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, subject to the > > > > bandwidth > > > > >> required for the DetNet flows. A single source-destination pair > > can > > > > trade both > > > > >> DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End systems and applications need > > not > > > > >> instantiate special interfaces for DetNet flows. Networks are > > not > > > > restricted to > > > > >> certain topologies; connectivity is not restricted. Any > > application > > > > that generates > > > > >> a data flow that can be usefully characterized as having a > > maximum > > > > bandwidth > > > > >> should be able to take advantage of DetNet, as long as the > > necessary > > > > resources > > > > >> can be reserved. Reservations can be made by the application > > itself, > > > > via network > > > > >> management, by an application???s controller, or by other means, > > e.g., > > > > a dynamic > > > > >> control plane (e.g., [RFC2205]). Network nodes supporting DetNet > > > > flows have to > > > > >> implement some of the DetNet capabilities (not necessarily all) > > in > > > > order to treat > > > > >> DetNet flows such that their QoS requirements are met. > > > > >> > > > > >> [ms] To me, the last sentence is not clear. Does "some of the > > DetNet > > > > capabilities > > > > >> (not necessarily all)" include e.g. vanilla traffic engineering? > > For > > > > instance, if a > > > > >> network node can ensure that the QoS requirements are met by > > > > leveraging > > > > >> existing standardized TE without any additional DetNet > > awareness, is > > > > this > > > > >> enough for deploying DetNet? Or does this node have to implement > > > > additional > > > > >> DetNet-specific functionality? Specifically, please explain if > > an > > > > existing DetNet- > > > > >> unaware router on the path taken by DetNet traffic can be used > > to > > > > forward > > > > >> DetNet traffic, or if it is mandatory that any router forwarding > > > > DetNet traffic > > > > >> indeed implements new capabilities specific to DetNet. In the > > latter > > > > case, I think > > > > >> the document would need to discuss incremental deployment > > strategies > > > > as well. > > > > >> > > > > >>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on > > network > > > > robustness > > > > >>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For > > instance, > > > > >>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet > > > > replication could > > > > >>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How > > does > > > > the DetNet > > > > >>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. > > if > > > > the topology > > > > >>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be > > > > solved by > > > > >>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are > > > > corresponding > > > > >>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that > > filters > > > > and policers > > > > >>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still assumes > > > > consistently > > > > >>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And > > Section > > > > 3.3.2 is > > > > >>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" > > > > without stating > > > > >>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further > > > > solutions, such as > > > > >>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not > > discussed? > > > > >> Security issues and considerations are addressed by the DetNet > > > > Security > > > > >> draft: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet- > > security. > > > > >> Reference to the=A0 DetNet Security draft will be added. > > > > >> > > > > >> There will be a document dedicated to Operations, Administration > > and > > > > >> Maintenance (OAM), which will address operational, > > misconfiguration, > > > > and > > > > >> failure detection issues. > > > > >> > > > > >> The topology changes have to be solved by the control plane, > > either > > > > >> centralized or distributed. > > > > >> > > > > >> The filters and policers described in Section 3.3.2 also provide > > > > >> robustness by eliminating/mitigating traffic coming from > > > > malfunctioning > > > > >> devices. > > > > >> > > > > >> RFC2475 is recommended for traffic policing functions to > > increase > > > > >> robustness. > > > > >> > > > > >> The text=A0 in Section 3.3.2 could be made clearer, e.g., by > > updating > > > > the > > > > >> first paragraph to: > > > > >> > > > > >> OLD: > > > > >> One key to building robust real-time systems is to reduce the > > > > >> infinite variety of possible failures to a number that can be > > > > >> analyzed with reasonable confidence. DetNet aids in the process > > by > > > > >> allowing for filters and policers to detect DetNet packets > > received > > > > >> on the wrong interface, or at the wrong time, or in too great a > > > > >> volume, and to then take actions such as discarding the > > offending > > > > >> packet, shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting > > down > > > > the > > > > >> offending interface. > > > > >> > > > > >> NEW: > > > > >> Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of > > possible > > > > >> failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet > > network to > > > > >> detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, or > > at > > > > >> the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, filters and > > > > >> policers can take action to discard offending packets or flows, > > or > > > > >> trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting > > down > > > > >> the offending interface. > > > > >> > > > > >> [ms] That does not address my concern. As I wrote already, I > > believe > > > > this > > > > >> document has to discuss the applicability of circuit breakers > > > > according to RFC > > > > >> 8084. > > > > >> > > > > >>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of > > failures > > > > to the QoS of > > > > >>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to protect > > non- > > > > DetNet parts > > > > >>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. > > Solutions > > > > to this > > > > >>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic > > (e.g., > > > > in case of > > > > >>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not discussed > > at > > > > all in the document? > > > > >> Actually the regulation of DetNet traffic by polices and filters > > > > >> protects both other DetNet traffic and non-DetNet traffic. > > > > >> > > > > >> Section 3.3.1 could be extended to make it clear, e.g., by > > extending > > > > the > > > > >> last paragraph: > > > > >> > > > > >> OLD: > > > > >> Ideally, the net effect of the presence of DetNet flows in a > > network > > > > >> on the non-DetNet packets is primarily a reduction in the > > available > > > > >> bandwidth. > > > > >> > > > > >> NEW: > > > > >> Traffic policing functions (e.g. [RFC2475]) are used to avoid > > the > > > > >> starvation of non-DetNet traffic. Thus, the net effect of the > > > > presence > > > > >> of DetNet flows in a network on non-DetNet flows is primarily a > > > > >> reduction in the available bandwidth. > > > > >> > > > > >> [ms] I believe a stronger wording is needed, e.g. along the > > lines of > > > > "a DetNet > > > > >> deployment must avoid starvation of non-DetNet traffic ...". > > > > >> > > > > >> [...] > > > > >> > > > > >>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational RFC > > on > > > > IRTF stream, > > > > >>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., > > > > "planes"). This is > > > > >>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should > > probably > > > > refer to > > > > >>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC 7491, > > > > albeit there is > > > > >>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, > > Section > > > > 4.4 is by and > > > > >>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not specific > > to > > > > DetNet. > > > > >>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the concepts > > > > introduced in > > > > >>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology or > > > > discuss > > > > >>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly > > at > > > > the end that > > > > >>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet > > > > architecture. It is not > > > > >>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 > > could > > > > be removed > > > > >>> from the document without impacting the rest of the document. > > > > >> The document should point out to traffic engineering and > > centralized > > > > >> control plane aspects, so it is better to keep Section 4.4. > > > > >> > > > > >> RFC 7426 provides the full picture of SDN architecture, which > > needs > > > > to > > > > >> be referred from the DetNet architecture. No other RFC provides > > such > > > > >> detailed picture. Therefore, we need to keep the reference to > > RFC > > > > 7426, > > > > >> which is an informative reference. > > > > >> > > > > >> [ms] I'll leave that up to the IESG to decide whether an IETF > > > > proposed standard > > > > >> should build an architecture based on research work instead of, > > say, > > > > documents > > > > >> with IETF consensus. As a side note, I believe the understanding > > in > > > > industry what > > > > >> "SDN architecture" really means and how it is implemented may > > have > > > > evolved > > > > >> since publication of IRTF RFC 7426, which was published in Jan. > > > > 2015. For > > > > >> instance, IRTF RFC 7426 does not discuss the implications of > > segment > > > > routing, > > > > >> BGP-LS, and other recent IETF techniques. And, based on what I > > read > > > > in the > > > > >> DetNet architecture, I believe DetNet could actually be > > implemented > > > > without > > > > >> any "SDN architecture", e.g. by distributed traffic engineering. > > As > > > > a result, I don't > > > > >> even understand the need to discuss "SDN". > > > > >> > > > > >> [ms] For the record: As TSV-ART reviewer, I question whether > > IRTF > > > > RFC 7426 is > > > > >> indeed an appropriate reference, I have doubts that IRTF RFC > > 7426 is > > > > really up- > > > > >> to-date, and I am concerned about the content quality of section > > > > 4.4, e.g., > > > > >> regarding the lack of alignment with the rest of the document. > > The > > > > IESG will > > > > >> certainly have a better understanding that than me how to deal > > with > > > > such topics. > > > > >> > > > > >> The related work in TEAS is already referred to. > > > > >> > > > > >> [...] > > > > >> > > > > >>> Minor issues: > > > > >>> > > > > >>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" > > > > >>> > > > > >>> The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in the > > IETF, > > > > e.g. > > > > >>> originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. > > "transport > > > > network" is > > > > >>> used in the IETF for different technologies in different areas, > > I > > > > think the > > > > >>> term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer to > > > > transport > > > > >>> protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find the > > term > > > > "DetNet > > > > >>> transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion is > > easy to > > > > see e.g. > > > > >>> in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as per > > RFC > > > > 1122) sits > > > > >>> on top of "transport". > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Based on the document it also may be solution/implementation > > > > specific > > > > >> whether > > > > >>> the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate protocol > > layer > > > > compared > > > > >>> to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me why > > the > > > > word > > > > >>> "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination "transport > > > > layer". > > > > >>> > > > > >>> To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport protocol") > > > > should be > > > > >>> used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with RFC > > 1122. > > > > But this is > > > > >>> probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. > > > > >> "transport" is used here as in "packet transport networks" not > > as > > > > OSI L4 > > > > >> transport. > > > > >> > > > > >> [ms] At the risk of stating the obvious: The relevant section of > > RFC > > > > 1122 defining > > > > >> "transport layer" is entitled by "The Internet Architecture". > > And, > > > > according e.g. > > > > >> to RFC 5921, "packet transport network" is a term defined by > > ITU-T. > > > > In an IETF > > > > >> document, I believe IETF terminology should be used. > > > > >> > > > > >> I suggest to use the terms "DetNet transport sub-layer" and > > "DetNet > > > > >> service sub-layer" throughout the document, which would > > hopefully > > > > avoid > > > > >> confusion. > > > > >> > > > > >> [ms] "DetNet transport sub-layer" somewhat solves my concern of > > > > avoiding the > > > > >> expression "transport layer". To really avoid confusion, I > > believe > > > > it would be > > > > >> better to avoid the ambiguous term "transport" altogether. But > > I > > > > will be fine if > > > > >> all DetNet documents consistently avoid the term "transport > > layer". > > > > >> > > > > >> Michael > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > >> Tsv-art mailing list > > > > >> Tsv-art@ietf.org > > > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > detnet mailing list > > > > > detnet@ietf.org > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Tsv-art mailing list > > > > Tsv-art@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Thu Nov 15 08:57:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2148D12F1A5 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:57:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mailfence.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iiy2h1FwuXnG for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:57:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout-l3b-97.contactoffice.com (mailout-l3b-97.contactoffice.com [212.3.242.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3D9D124BAA for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:57:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpauth1.co-bxl (smtpauth1.co-bxl [10.2.0.15]) by mailout-l3b-97.contactoffice.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 267FAD1 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 17:57:39 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mailfence.com; s=20160819-nLV10XS2; t=1542301059; bh=oDAsbNx24Duv+6nLxkGIyLZTWIC4OEJ1jSsEPGfATNY=; h=From:Date:Subject:To:From; b=qkBCvvi763NkEPWE3AYIv5zSMBFC9GI+VNn5BEq7o+dXvRGQ5whp0gG++fxU0BmhM iRKillhi5eAxbxlOKkx479KQGBSy4XUOuessExiUkcaZhpT0qzc4XtMwOHRWTAL1gZ OEt80UVM2w2rxLFyHnfIypW1GtkK4zXmGwRvRY8hoOhoYZif5s0JqZXmhthgcdXx7B DiH9v7KlMtnKlmHrol7b2bNxnoi106NiZXBtuwi9/plhNe12M0DIWO3NXbvevSgYni cpLbL6OABHCR3uaCcBcT5ytgY8tc22biRM1jQNQ2pDA+wVzUc1ssY8quW3G8VFBC+/ 6pPOZ1KRAjsYA== Received: from mail-io1-f54.google.com ([209.85.166.54]) by smtp.mailfence.com (envelope-from ) with ESMTPA for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 17:57:35 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail-io1-f54.google.com with SMTP id r7-v6so14811513iog.7 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:57:35 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWaqENVY72JO2bz+8VyMZKV7NfIGTGYyt0S4G3B57Ft+3vkU9m20 En/3Ihx6d6zt+wQ/ZwAYwPQ4koLO73al6R8ARrQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/XsRMW1uB0VPJRHkCZ1xH+UVUoIeGa6o7nUIIxT+An27oj0C55pE27h76WL9tvTE1d7fx+ftl8VdipmRQQwK3I= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:4f14:: with SMTP id d20-v6mr5965952iob.68.1542301053998; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:57:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Remous-Aris Koutsiamanis Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 17:57:36 +0100 (CET) X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: detnet@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000075e545057ab6f213" X-ContactOffice-Account: com:113819248 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Controlling Replication X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 16:57:45 -0000 --00000000000075e545057ab6f213 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello, I have been reading through the material in the DetNet WG in search for a specific mechanism for controlling replication. I have not found something very specific, e.g. a header field indicating to enable replications or to do N replications, until now. I have found BIER-TE, however, as far as I can tell the replication decision (to which next hops to forward to) in this case is made beforehand in the controller, not in each intermediate node. Would someone be kind enough to either point me in the right direction if there is such functionality or confirm that there is nothing of this kind specified (yet). Kind regards, Remous-Aris Koutsiamanis IMT Atlantique, France --00000000000075e545057ab6f213 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,

I have been reading t= hrough the material in the DetNet WG in search for a specific mechanism for= controlling replication.
I have not found something very specifi= c, e.g. a header field indicating to enable replications or to do N replica= tions, until now.
I have found BIER-TE, however, as far as I= can tell the replication decision (to which next hops to forward to) in th= is case is made beforehand in the controller, not in each intermediate node= .
Would someone be kind enough to either point me in the righ= t direction if there is such functionality or confirm that there is nothing= of this kind specified (yet).

Kind regards,
=
Remous-Aris Koutsiamanis
IMT Atlantique, France
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<0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <8D171B16-FD22-46CD-9D2B-24070F2DC433@cisco.com> <6EDA7130-E283-4D72-B9DD-0211BB12E763@cisco.com> <0C722534-D42B-4822-8E64-354DAD00BB03@cisco.com> <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F80171E775@lhrpml504-mbx.exmail.huawei.com> <1671637d4e8.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6DC63021103D4A2B9123AE011E4EEDB1ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.14, xch-aln-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 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15 Nov 2018 23:53:58 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 23:53:58 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: "Scharf, Michael" Cc: Lou Berger , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" , "Black, David" , 'J?nos Farkas' , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , DetNet WG Message-ID: <20181115225358.mbhdw2kcaftyt45v@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <0bb7176c-c386-b863-a4f8-06254f4627ab@ericsson.com> <1705d15c-c7ba-c76f-88db-c75f1a88db0f@ericsson.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D143BE1@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D15213B@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D152997@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <20181115035637.7lzevvoeulr7qm7h@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D15BB90@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D15BB90@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 22:54:10 -0000 On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 01:18:09PM +0000, Scharf, Michael wrote: > My comments are about the question what happens if DetNet packets get dropped despite that this should _never_ happen in normal operation. There can be different reasons for packet drops in a managed network. One root cause would be that the DetNet traffic gets routed erroneously over a DetNet unaware node somewhere in the Internet and then causes harm there. Understood. > For inelastic traffic, if such packet loss persists, that flow (at least on the path where losses occur) may need to be blocked for safety reasons. I assume that is what you suggest in your last sentence? Yes. Of course, i can not speak for the authors, and i don't think so far this type of detail for the PREOF functions have been required, but i certainly think it would make the PEF/POF a lot more useful if it would include diagnostics about packet loss - and that could then be used to trigger some control/management-plane circuit breaker. Cheers Toerless > Michael > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:tte@cs.fau.de] > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 4:57 AM > To: Scharf, Michael > Cc: Black, David; Lou Berger; 'J?nos Farkas'; tsv-art@ietf.org; DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 > > On Fri, Nov 09, 2018 at 06:38:30AM +0000, Scharf, Michael wrote: > > Indeed. > > > > And, as noted in my earlier way, depending on how the PRF is realized DetNet may even shield DetNet traffic from packet losses due to congestion, i.e., even traffic that would be able to react to congestion may not react due to DetNet. If DetNet is able to mask congestion from the carried traffic, special care is needed inside DetNet. > > I don't think we should complicate the matters by talking about DetNet > flows that may react to congestion. I don't think this is in scope of > the current architecture. > > AFAIK, all DetNet flows have a known envelope, and DetNet flows should > be shutdown (filtered/blocked) by the DetNet service whenever they exceed > the envelope (*). > > Within the envelope of DetNet flows, there is no useful support > for congestion loss, because congestion constitutes a misconfiguration > or misbehavior of the DetNet service. > > PEF/POF could actually act as a circuit breaker using the maximum > permissible loss of the envelope as a trigger to make the PRF stop > the flow. That would be a good feature for the PREOF. > > Cheers > Toerless > > (*) I am not sure if DetNet intends to make such a strong > statement, but from what i heard, this is usually done in TSN > applications: > > If you have an interlocked system and a sender exceeds its > envelope, that indicates a malfunctioning sender, and there is > no way to design a safe&secure system with randomnly > malfunctioning components. Shutting down a component by > stopping its traffic is a supported system behavior resulting > typically in bringing up redundant components or shutting down > parts of the system. Unknown component behavior results in > unpredictable system behavior, often catastrophic. > > > > That quoted comment is followed by a "reduce to previous case" argument > > > about networking in general: > > > > > > > > WRT escaped traffic, as I mentioned in today's session, I really > > > think > > > > > this is no difference between escaped DetNet traffic and traffic > > > > > delivered over an uncongested network to a peer (congested or > > > > > uncongested) network. > > > > > > Unfortunately, that argument leads to a contradiction, namely a > > > conclusion that congestion control is not necessary for the Internet, > > > which is known to be wrong. Having arrived at a result that > > > mathematicians would call "proof by contradiction," one of the > > > assumptions that lead to this point has to be wrong, but which one? > > > > > > The "clear, simple and wrong" (Mencken) approach to resolving this > > > would be to focus on the inelastic traffic and require that all DetNet > > > traffic MUST be congestion controlled. I'm not advocating this, and > > > neither is Michael. > > > > > > A more subtle approach (with credit to Deb Brungard for an insightful > > > discussion after RTGAREA yesterday) is to recognize that DetNet is a > > > Controlled Environment, to which different rules apply than the > > > Internet and networks in general. For the definition of Controlled > > > Environment, see Section 3.6 of RFC 8085 > > > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8085#section-3.6). For now, please > > > ignore the material in that section on safety, robustness and > > > corruption, as inapplicable to this discussion. FWIW, that material > > > was motivated by the incessant attempts to optimize out UDP checksums > > > without serious consideration of the resulting packet corruption risks > > > and the potential consequences thereof. Viewing DetNet as a Controlled > > > Environment, this discussion is then primarily about what to require/do > > > at the boundary between the DetNet Controlled Environment and other > > > networks. I've been there, done that for other Controlled Environments > > > ... and have the scars ... from the worked examples in RFC 7510 > > > (MPLS/UDP) and RFC 8086's TMCE (Traffic Management Controlled > > > Environment) applicability scenario for GRE/UDP. Those two RFCs may be > > > helpful background reading. > > > > > > The good news here is that we are not as far from agreeing on a > > > solution as might appear from the length of this discussion. Going > > > back to a couple of chunks of text that Janos proposed earlier: > > > > > > NEW: > > > This document provides the overall Architecture for Deterministic > > > Networking (DetNet), which provides a capability for the delivery > > > of > > > data flows with extremely low packet loss rates and bounded end- > > > to- > > > end delivery latency within a network domain. DetNet is for > > > networks > > > that are under a single administrative control or within a closed > > > group > > > of administrative control; these include campus-wide networks and > > > private WANs. DetNet is not for large groups of domains such as > > > the > > > Internet. > > > > > > That reads to me as a clear statement that a DetNet network is a > > > Controlled Environment, so I would hope that we're in agreement on > > > that. > > > > > > NEW: > > > Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of possible > > > failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet network > > > to > > > detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, or > > > at > > > the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, filters and > > > policers can take action to discard offending packets or flows, > > > or > > > trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting down > > > the offending interface. > > > > > > That proposed text actually contains two circuit breakers, "shutting > > > down the offending DetNet flow" or "shutting down the offending > > > interface." So far, so good, but what's missing is text on deployment > > > requirements of the mechanisms described in that text, particularly at > > > the edges of DetNet networks. > > > > Yep, strict deployment requirements are needed. > > > > > Text that requires deployment of "filters and policers ... [that] > > > discard offending [DetNet] packets and flows" at the boundaries between > > > DetNet and non-DetNet networks would go a long way towards resolving > > > this discussion. I would suggest expanding "offending" into text that > > > includes all unauthorized DetNet traffic and all unexpected DetNet > > > traffic. Once that's done, the "circuit breaker" discussion becomes > > > more tractable, as the discarding of all DetNet traffic that would > > > otherwise escape the DetNet network reduces the "circuit breaker" > > > discussion to the existing DetNet material measures that need to be > > > taken inside a DetNet network to protect delivery of DetNet service. > > > > As already mentioned, it is possible that some solutions don't need any "circuit breaker" as they achieve sufficient robustness by some other means. I only ask for text that explains how to avoid harm from non-DetNet networks, not for a specific solution. > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, --David > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Scharf, Michael [mailto:Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de] > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 1:12 PM > > > > To: Lou Berger; Black, David; 'Jnos Farkas' > > > > Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet- > > > architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > Subject: RE: [Tsv-art] [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft- > > > ietf-detnet- > > > > architecture-08 > > > > > > > > > > > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > > > Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for > > > sensitive > > > > information. > > > > > > > > > > > > Inline > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Tsv-art [mailto:tsv-art-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou > > > Berger > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 8:45 AM > > > > > To: Black, David; Scharf, Michael; 'Jnos Farkas' > > > > > Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > > architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > > Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft- > > > ietf- > > > > > detnet-architecture-08 > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > See below for in-line responses > > > > > > > > > > On 11/5/2018 12:21 AM, Black, David wrote: > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > >>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on > > > network > > > > > robustness > > > > > >>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For > > > instance, > > > > > >>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet > > > > > replication could > > > > > >>> severely and permanently congest a network and cause harm. > > > > > > [... snip ...] > > > > > >> NEW: > > > > > >> Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of > > > possible > > > > > >> failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet > > > network to > > > > > >> detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, or > > > at > > > > > >> the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, filters and > > > > > >> policers can take action to discard offending packets or flows, > > > or > > > > > >> trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting > > > down > > > > > >> the offending interface. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> [ms] That does not address my concern. As I wrote already, I > > > believe > > > > > this > > > > > >> document has to discuss the applicability of circuit breakers > > > > > according to RFC > > > > > >> 8084. > > > > > > I concur with Michael's implied concern that the "should" in the > > > NEW > > > > > text > > > > > > is woefully inadequate. The provisions to prevent escaped non- > > > > > elastic traffic > > > > > > from causing damage elsewhere need to be mandatory particularly > > > if > > > > > DetNet > > > > > > and non-DetNet networks are interconnected. The above > > > > > > text on filters doesn't appear to cover escape from the DetNet > > > > > network, > > > > > > and needs to do so. Deployment of filters at DetNet nodes that > > > drop > > > > > all > > > > > > DetNet traffic that tries to escape, and that drop all > > > misdirected > > > > > DetNet > > > > > > traffic should address most of this problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > Once that is done, I think a discussion of circuit breakers is > > > > > needed, in the > > > > > > form of Detnet service mechanisms that can shut down (cease > > > > > transmission > > > > > > of) a flow that is being sent entirely into the bit-bucket by a > > > > > downstream filter, > > > > > > due to misconfiguration, failure, etc. > > > > > > > > > > I think we have a bit of a disconnect of what DetNet service > > > delivers. > > > > > > > > > > DetNet does not itself impact any Transport protocol (e.g., UDP, > > > TCP) > > > > > so itself does not *produce* elastic or non-elastic traffic. > > > > > > > > First, the question whether DetNet *produces* elastic or non-elastic > > > traffic does > > > > not matter for the applicability of circuit breakers. Section 3 of > > > RFC 8084 states: > > > > > > > > CBs are RECOMMENDED for IETF protocols and tunnels that carry non- > > > > congestion-controlled Internet flows and for traffic aggregates. > > > > This includes traffic sent using a network tunnel. Designers of > > > > other protocols and tunnel encapsulations also ought to consider > > > the > > > > use of these techniques as a last resort to protect traffic that > > > > shares the network path being used. > > > > > > > > Section 3.2.1.1 of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-09 explains > > > explicitly that > > > > DetNet can carry non-congestion-controlled traffic: > > > > > > > > Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled, i.e., its > > > > transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion > > > > notification. > > > > > > > > So, clearly the condition of carrying non-congestion-controlled flows > > > or traffic > > > > aggregates applies to the DetNet architecture. And, as a result, the > > > > RECOMMENDED in RFC 8084 is in principle applicable to DetNet. Also, > > > note that > > > > the RECOMMENDED in RFC 8084 is not limited to tunnels. > > > > > > > > As pointed out by David, the key question is whether, and how, the > > > DetNet > > > > architecture prevents that non-congestion controlled traffic escapes > > > from a > > > > controlled environment into the Internet. As also explained in RFC > > > 8084, this > > > > question in particular matters for failure scenarios. > > > > > > > > As TSV-ART reviewer, I insist in a discussion of this problem in > > > draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > architecture. And I believe that a reference to RFC 8084 is needed in > > > draft-ietf- > > > > detnet-architecture. > > > > > > > > Note that the wording in RFC 8084 is RECOMMENDED and not MUST, i.e., > > > it is > > > > possible that circuit breakers may not be needed for certain > > > solutions. As an > > > > example, MPLS traffic may not easily escape from a managed MPLS > > > network. > > > > > > > > > > > > Second, in my TSV-ART review I have explicitly mentioned the DetNet > > > Packet > > > > Replication Function (PRF). Replicating non-elastic traffic may > > > create additional > > > > challenges if the replicated packets can somehow escape into the > > > Internet, e.g., > > > > in failure cases. For instance, as far as I understand draft-ietf- > > > detnet- > > > > architecture, I assume the PRF can replicate non-congestion- > > > controlled traffic > > > > and forward it along different paths. If one of these paths escapes > > > to the > > > > Internet, to the Internet the PRF could basically be a producer of > > > non-congestion > > > > controlled traffic, and that traffic could cause significant harm in > > > the Internet. > > > > Also, note that in that case it may not necessarily help if the > > > traffic carried by > > > > DetNet is elastic, e.g., if DetNet carries TCP traffic. For instance, > > > if other paths > > > > used by the PRF within the DetNet domain would deliver all packets, > > > the > > > > congestion control in TCP would not never be triggered as each packet > > > gets > > > > indeed delivered over one of the paths. So, an unelastic traffic > > > stream would > > > > escale into the Internet and never back off. Unless I miss something, > > > DetNet > > > > needs counter-means to prevent this sort of issues. > > > > > > > > As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe draft-ietf-detnet-architecture needs a > > > dedicated > > > > discussion whether the PRF can cause harm and, if so, how to avoid > > > such harm. > > > > > > > > > DetNet operates at Layer 3 and basically provides detnet flows with > > > a > > > > > service equivalent to IntServ's Guaranteed Quality of Service. As > > > > > such, > > > > > DetNet flows basically operate as if the network is uncongested. > > > > > > > > RFC 8084 exactly addresses that case. The question is not the normal > > > operation > > > > of the network, but abnormal cases. > > > > > > > > > WRT escaped traffic, as I mentioned in today's session, I really > > > think > > > > > this is no difference between escaped DetNet traffic and traffic > > > > > delivered over an uncongested network to a peer (congested or > > > > > uncongested) network. > > > > > > > > That comes down to how the DetNet network deals with abnormal > > > situations at > > > > the edges, e.g., for the problems mentioned in RFC 8084: > > > > > > > > o anomalous traffic that exceeds the provisioned capacity (or > > > whose > > > > traffic characteristics exceed the threshold configured for the > > > > CB); > > > > > > > > o traffic generated by an application at a time when the > > > provisioned > > > > network capacity is being utilized for other purposes; > > > > > > > > o routing changes that cause additional traffic to start using > > > the > > > > path monitored by the CB; > > > > > > > > o misconfiguration of a service/network device where the capacity > > > > available is insufficient to support the current traffic > > > > aggregate; > > > > > > > > o misconfiguration of an admission controller or traffic policer > > > > that allows more traffic than expected across the path > > > monitored > > > > by the CB. > > > > > > > > According to the last point, misconfiguration of filters/policies is > > > one of the > > > > challenges to look at. > > > > > > > > > Based on all this, I'm not sure how or why a discussion of circuit > > > > > breakers is needed. > > > > > > > > RFC 8084 represents IETF community consensus. And in my reading the > > > DetNet > > > > architecture falls into the type of solutions discussed in RFC 8084. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, --David > > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > > >> From: Tsv-art [mailto:tsv-art-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > > > Scharf, > > > > > Michael > > > > > >> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:44 PM > > > > > >> To: 'Jnos Farkas' > > > > > >> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > > architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf- > > > detnet- > > > > > architecture-08 > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > > > > >> Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for > > > > > sensitive > > > > > >> information. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Hi Janos, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Thanks for the reply. My comments are inline [ms]. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I have omitted all proposed changes that work for me. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Michael > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > > >> From: Jnos Farkas > > > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 10:56 AM > > > > > >> To: Scharf, Michael > > > > > >> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet- > > > architecture.all@ietf.org; > > > > > DetNet WG > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Subject: Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > > architecture-08 > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Hi Michael, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Thank you very much for the thorough review and good comments! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Please find below in-line responses and how we plan to update > > > the > > > > > draft to > > > > > >> resolve your comments. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Best regards, > > > > > >> Janos > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On 9/29/2018 12:24 AM, Michael Scharf wrote: > > > > > >>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf > > > > > >>> Review result: Ready with Issues > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" > > > > > >>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall > > > framework > > > > > for > > > > > >>> Deterministic Networking. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues as > > > > > >>> detailed below. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Michael > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Major issues: > > > > > >> [...] > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> DetNet > > > > > >>> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices > > > > > >>> transporting DetNet traffic. That assumption should be > > > explicitly > > > > > >>> spelt out early in the document, e.g., in the introduction. > > > > > >> Actually, some form of DetNet support is required from each node > > > > > that > > > > > >> transports DetNet traffic. For instance, DetNet flows have to be > > > > > recognized in > > > > > >> order not to spoil their QoS at the minimum. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> [ms] I look for an clear explanation in the architecture > > > document of > > > > > what "some > > > > > >> form of DetNet support" exactly means. For instance, is standard > > > > > MPLS TE > > > > > >> without any DetNet support good enough for an LSR on the IP/MPLS > > > > > path used > > > > > >> by DetNet traffic, or not? As an example, when I read the > > > following > > > > > paragraph in > > > > > >> draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-mpls-01 ... > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Transit nodes are normal MPLS Label Switching Routers > > > (LSRs). > > > > > They > > > > > >> are generally unaware of the special requirements of DetNet > > > > > flows, > > > > > >> although they need to provide traffic engineering services > > > and > > > > > proper > > > > > >> QoS to the LSPs associated with DetNet flows to enhance the > > > > > prospect > > > > > >> of the LSPs meeting the DetNet service requirements. Some > > > > > >> implementations of transit nodes may be DetNet aware, but > > > such > > > > > nodes > > > > > >> just support the DetNet transport layer. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> ... I could maybe assume that actually there can be "transit > > > nodes" > > > > > that do not > > > > > >> require *any* sort of DetNet support or DetNet awareness. Is > > > that > > > > > correct? I > > > > > >> think the architecture document has to be clear on such > > > fundamental > > > > > questions. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> The Introduction could be extended to clarify, e.g., the third > > > > > paragraph: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> OLD: > > > > > >> A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. That > > > is, > > > > > the presence of > > > > > >> DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the > > > benefits > > > > > offered > > > > > >> DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, prevent > > > existing > > > > > QoS > > > > > >> mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, subject to the > > > > > bandwidth > > > > > >> required for the DetNet flows. A single source-destination pair > > > can > > > > > trade both > > > > > >> DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End systems and applications need > > > not > > > > > >> instantiate special interfaces for DetNet flows. Networks are > > > not > > > > > restricted to > > > > > >> certain topologies; connectivity is not restricted. Any > > > application > > > > > that generates > > > > > >> a data flow that can be usefully characterized as having a > > > maximum > > > > > bandwidth > > > > > >> should be able to take advantage of DetNet, as long as the > > > necessary > > > > > resources > > > > > >> can be reserved. Reservations can be made by the application > > > itself, > > > > > via network > > > > > >> management, by an application???s controller, or by other means, > > > e.g., > > > > > a dynamic > > > > > >> control plane (e.g., [RFC2205]). > > > > > >> > > > > > >> NEW: > > > > > >> A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. That > > > is, > > > > > the presence of > > > > > >> DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the > > > benefits > > > > > offered > > > > > >> DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, prevent > > > existing > > > > > QoS > > > > > >> mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, subject to the > > > > > bandwidth > > > > > >> required for the DetNet flows. A single source-destination pair > > > can > > > > > trade both > > > > > >> DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End systems and applications need > > > not > > > > > >> instantiate special interfaces for DetNet flows. Networks are > > > not > > > > > restricted to > > > > > >> certain topologies; connectivity is not restricted. Any > > > application > > > > > that generates > > > > > >> a data flow that can be usefully characterized as having a > > > maximum > > > > > bandwidth > > > > > >> should be able to take advantage of DetNet, as long as the > > > necessary > > > > > resources > > > > > >> can be reserved. Reservations can be made by the application > > > itself, > > > > > via network > > > > > >> management, by an application???s controller, or by other means, > > > e.g., > > > > > a dynamic > > > > > >> control plane (e.g., [RFC2205]). Network nodes supporting DetNet > > > > > flows have to > > > > > >> implement some of the DetNet capabilities (not necessarily all) > > > in > > > > > order to treat > > > > > >> DetNet flows such that their QoS requirements are met. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> [ms] To me, the last sentence is not clear. Does "some of the > > > DetNet > > > > > capabilities > > > > > >> (not necessarily all)" include e.g. vanilla traffic engineering? > > > For > > > > > instance, if a > > > > > >> network node can ensure that the QoS requirements are met by > > > > > leveraging > > > > > >> existing standardized TE without any additional DetNet > > > awareness, is > > > > > this > > > > > >> enough for deploying DetNet? Or does this node have to implement > > > > > additional > > > > > >> DetNet-specific functionality? Specifically, please explain if > > > an > > > > > existing DetNet- > > > > > >> unaware router on the path taken by DetNet traffic can be used > > > to > > > > > forward > > > > > >> DetNet traffic, or if it is mandatory that any router forwarding > > > > > DetNet traffic > > > > > >> indeed implements new capabilities specific to DetNet. In the > > > latter > > > > > case, I think > > > > > >> the document would need to discuss incremental deployment > > > strategies > > > > > as well. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on > > > network > > > > > robustness > > > > > >>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For > > > instance, > > > > > >>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet > > > > > replication could > > > > > >>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How > > > does > > > > > the DetNet > > > > > >>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. > > > if > > > > > the topology > > > > > >>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be > > > > > solved by > > > > > >>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are > > > > > corresponding > > > > > >>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that > > > filters > > > > > and policers > > > > > >>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still assumes > > > > > consistently > > > > > >>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And > > > Section > > > > > 3.3.2 is > > > > > >>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" > > > > > without stating > > > > > >>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further > > > > > solutions, such as > > > > > >>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not > > > discussed? > > > > > >> Security issues and considerations are addressed by the DetNet > > > > > Security > > > > > >> draft: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet- > > > security. > > > > > >> Reference to the DetNet Security draft will be added. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> There will be a document dedicated to Operations, Administration > > > and > > > > > >> Maintenance (OAM), which will address operational, > > > misconfiguration, > > > > > and > > > > > >> failure detection issues. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> The topology changes have to be solved by the control plane, > > > either > > > > > >> centralized or distributed. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> The filters and policers described in Section 3.3.2 also provide > > > > > >> robustness by eliminating/mitigating traffic coming from > > > > > malfunctioning > > > > > >> devices. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> RFC2475 is recommended for traffic policing functions to > > > increase > > > > > >> robustness. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> The text in Section 3.3.2 could be made clearer, e.g., by > > > updating > > > > > the > > > > > >> first paragraph to: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> OLD: > > > > > >> One key to building robust real-time systems is to reduce the > > > > > >> infinite variety of possible failures to a number that can be > > > > > >> analyzed with reasonable confidence. DetNet aids in the process > > > by > > > > > >> allowing for filters and policers to detect DetNet packets > > > received > > > > > >> on the wrong interface, or at the wrong time, or in too great a > > > > > >> volume, and to then take actions such as discarding the > > > offending > > > > > >> packet, shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting > > > down > > > > > the > > > > > >> offending interface. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> NEW: > > > > > >> Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of > > > possible > > > > > >> failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet > > > network to > > > > > >> detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, or > > > at > > > > > >> the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, filters and > > > > > >> policers can take action to discard offending packets or flows, > > > or > > > > > >> trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or shutting > > > down > > > > > >> the offending interface. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> [ms] That does not address my concern. As I wrote already, I > > > believe > > > > > this > > > > > >> document has to discuss the applicability of circuit breakers > > > > > according to RFC > > > > > >> 8084. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of > > > failures > > > > > to the QoS of > > > > > >>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to protect > > > non- > > > > > DetNet parts > > > > > >>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. > > > Solutions > > > > > to this > > > > > >>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic > > > (e.g., > > > > > in case of > > > > > >>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not discussed > > > at > > > > > all in the document? > > > > > >> Actually the regulation of DetNet traffic by polices and filters > > > > > >> protects both other DetNet traffic and non-DetNet traffic. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Section 3.3.1 could be extended to make it clear, e.g., by > > > extending > > > > > the > > > > > >> last paragraph: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> OLD: > > > > > >> Ideally, the net effect of the presence of DetNet flows in a > > > network > > > > > >> on the non-DetNet packets is primarily a reduction in the > > > available > > > > > >> bandwidth. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> NEW: > > > > > >> Traffic policing functions (e.g. [RFC2475]) are used to avoid > > > the > > > > > >> starvation of non-DetNet traffic. Thus, the net effect of the > > > > > presence > > > > > >> of DetNet flows in a network on non-DetNet flows is primarily a > > > > > >> reduction in the available bandwidth. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> [ms] I believe a stronger wording is needed, e.g. along the > > > lines of > > > > > "a DetNet > > > > > >> deployment must avoid starvation of non-DetNet traffic ...". > > > > > >> > > > > > >> [...] > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational RFC > > > on > > > > > IRTF stream, > > > > > >>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., > > > > > "planes"). This is > > > > > >>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should > > > probably > > > > > refer to > > > > > >>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC 7491, > > > > > albeit there is > > > > > >>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, > > > Section > > > > > 4.4 is by and > > > > > >>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not specific > > > to > > > > > DetNet. > > > > > >>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the concepts > > > > > introduced in > > > > > >>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology or > > > > > discuss > > > > > >>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly > > > at > > > > > the end that > > > > > >>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet > > > > > architecture. It is not > > > > > >>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 > > > could > > > > > be removed > > > > > >>> from the document without impacting the rest of the document. > > > > > >> The document should point out to traffic engineering and > > > centralized > > > > > >> control plane aspects, so it is better to keep Section 4.4. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> RFC 7426 provides the full picture of SDN architecture, which > > > needs > > > > > to > > > > > >> be referred from the DetNet architecture. No other RFC provides > > > such > > > > > >> detailed picture. Therefore, we need to keep the reference to > > > RFC > > > > > 7426, > > > > > >> which is an informative reference. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> [ms] I'll leave that up to the IESG to decide whether an IETF > > > > > proposed standard > > > > > >> should build an architecture based on research work instead of, > > > say, > > > > > documents > > > > > >> with IETF consensus. As a side note, I believe the understanding > > > in > > > > > industry what > > > > > >> "SDN architecture" really means and how it is implemented may > > > have > > > > > evolved > > > > > >> since publication of IRTF RFC 7426, which was published in Jan. > > > > > 2015. For > > > > > >> instance, IRTF RFC 7426 does not discuss the implications of > > > segment > > > > > routing, > > > > > >> BGP-LS, and other recent IETF techniques. And, based on what I > > > read > > > > > in the > > > > > >> DetNet architecture, I believe DetNet could actually be > > > implemented > > > > > without > > > > > >> any "SDN architecture", e.g. by distributed traffic engineering. > > > As > > > > > a result, I don't > > > > > >> even understand the need to discuss "SDN". > > > > > >> > > > > > >> [ms] For the record: As TSV-ART reviewer, I question whether > > > IRTF > > > > > RFC 7426 is > > > > > >> indeed an appropriate reference, I have doubts that IRTF RFC > > > 7426 is > > > > > really up- > > > > > >> to-date, and I am concerned about the content quality of section > > > > > 4.4, e.g., > > > > > >> regarding the lack of alignment with the rest of the document. > > > The > > > > > IESG will > > > > > >> certainly have a better understanding that than me how to deal > > > with > > > > > such topics. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> The related work in TEAS is already referred to. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> [...] > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> Minor issues: > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in the > > > IETF, > > > > > e.g. > > > > > >>> originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. > > > "transport > > > > > network" is > > > > > >>> used in the IETF for different technologies in different areas, > > > I > > > > > think the > > > > > >>> term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer to > > > > > transport > > > > > >>> protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find the > > > term > > > > > "DetNet > > > > > >>> transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion is > > > easy to > > > > > see e.g. > > > > > >>> in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as per > > > RFC > > > > > 1122) sits > > > > > >>> on top of "transport". > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Based on the document it also may be solution/implementation > > > > > specific > > > > > >> whether > > > > > >>> the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate protocol > > > layer > > > > > compared > > > > > >>> to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me why > > > the > > > > > word > > > > > >>> "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination "transport > > > > > layer". > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport protocol") > > > > > should be > > > > > >>> used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with RFC > > > 1122. > > > > > But this is > > > > > >>> probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. > > > > > >> "transport" is used here as in "packet transport networks" not > > > as > > > > > OSI L4 > > > > > >> transport. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> [ms] At the risk of stating the obvious: The relevant section of > > > RFC > > > > > 1122 defining > > > > > >> "transport layer" is entitled by "The Internet Architecture". > > > And, > > > > > according e.g. > > > > > >> to RFC 5921, "packet transport network" is a term defined by > > > ITU-T. > > > > > In an IETF > > > > > >> document, I believe IETF terminology should be used. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I suggest to use the terms "DetNet transport sub-layer" and > > > "DetNet > > > > > >> service sub-layer" throughout the document, which would > > > hopefully > > > > > avoid > > > > > >> confusion. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> [ms] "DetNet transport sub-layer" somewhat solves my concern of > > > > > avoiding the > > > > > >> expression "transport layer". To really avoid confusion, I > > > believe > > > > > it would be > > > > > >> better to avoid the ambiguous term "transport" altogether. But > > > I > > > > > will be fine if > > > > > >> all DetNet documents consistently avoid the term "transport > > > layer". > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Michael > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > > >> Tsv-art mailing list > > > > > >> Tsv-art@ietf.org > > > > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > detnet mailing list > > > > > > detnet@ietf.org > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Tsv-art mailing list > > > > > Tsv-art@ietf.org > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Thu Nov 15 15:33:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D662130EA8 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 15:33:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.952 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.952 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ou0SCjN8ufq7 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 15:33:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9590B130E5F for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 15:33:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788ED54800B; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 00:33:23 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 6518C440210; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 00:33:23 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 00:33:23 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Remous-Aris Koutsiamanis Cc: detnet@ietf.org Message-ID: <20181115233323.iq32dqiyezyaqiez@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Controlling Replication X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 23:33:29 -0000 Remous-Aris, We did propose BIER-TE as a possible transport in DetNet, but so far there was no feedback re. that proposal. I still think that BIER-TE would be a great lightweigt transport option, but maybe there is too little understanding DetNet of its benefits yet in the WG. Note that BIER-TE would support both unicast/multicast as well as PRF. Cheers Toerless On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 05:57:36PM +0100, Remous-Aris Koutsiamanis wrote: > Hello, > > I have been reading through the material in the DetNet WG in search for a > specific mechanism for controlling replication. > I have not found something very specific, e.g. a header field indicating to > enable replications or to do N replications, until now. > I have found BIER-TE, however, as far as I can tell the replication > decision (to which next hops to forward to) in this case is made beforehand > in the controller, not in each intermediate node. > Would someone be kind enough to either point me in the right direction if > there is such functionality or confirm that there is nothing of this kind > specified (yet). > > Kind regards, > Remous-Aris Koutsiamanis > IMT Atlantique, France > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Thu Nov 15 16:58:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE4A2130DE7 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 16:58:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p3aSy_LGxfjo for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 16:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BF63128B14 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 16:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML713-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id D2FCFCD526B64 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 00:58:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.33) by LHREML713-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 00:58:07 +0000 Received: from DGGEML510-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.55]) by DGGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::74d9:c659:fbec:21fa%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 08:58:02 +0800 From: Mach Chen To: Remous-Aris Koutsiamanis , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Controlling Replication Thread-Index: AQHUfQRkPP2Ogh2cDEmVeVfaHgH/3aVRkmQg Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 00:58:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.194.201] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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Email with ESMTP id 8EA19EB6937F0 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 02:00:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMA422-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.155) by LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 02:00:52 +0000 Received: from DGGEMA521-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.6.27]) by dggema422-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.198.155]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 10:00:47 +0800 From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" CC: Lou Berger , Norman Finn , "Black, David" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] pulling packets Thread-Index: AdR7DhnsUHHFp74PReiHX8huqYyB6AA4VCxgAAQZfzD//3ukgIAAYrcAgAANaoCAAAGYgIAAjbOAgAA1NwCAAA6EAIAAIR2A//9zmICAAXxIgP//My1w Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 02:00:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <8D171B16-FD22-46CD-9D2B-24070F2DC433@cisco.com> <6EDA7130-E283-4D72-B9DD-0211BB12E763@cisco.com> <0C722534-D42B-4822-8E64-354DAD00BB03@cisco.com> <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F80171E775@lhrpml504-mbx.exmail.huawei.com> <1671637d4e8.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> <6DC63021-103D-4A2B-9123-AE011E4EEDB1@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <6DC63021-103D-4A2B-9123-AE011E4EEDB1@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.169.123] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C23812C6Cdggema521mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 02:01:02 -0000 --_000_F1C1D5B02EA3FA4A8AF54C86BA4F325C23812C6Cdggema521mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; 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(version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Nov 2018 09:30:34 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-004.cisco.com (173.37.102.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 03:30:33 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 03:30:33 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Lou Berger , "Black, David" CC: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] pulling packets Thread-Index: AQHUfACw9Y6tWkDlI0mXp06Kopix06VP0KwA//+o1tiAAVgZAIABUMqg Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 09:30:14 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 09:29:48 +0000 Message-ID: <6aca818a9f5444ecbc75200a8f121943@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com>, , <8D171B16-FD22-46CD-9D2B-24070F2DC433@cisco.com> <6EDA7130-E283-4D72-B9DD-0211BB12E763@cisco.com>, <0C722534-D42B-4822-8E64-354DAD00BB03@cisco.com> <16716367170.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <16716367170.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6aca818a9f5444ecbc75200a8f121943XCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.14, xch-rcd-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-12.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 09:30:40 -0000 --_000_6aca818a9f5444ecbc75200a8f121943XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 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(20120429) (Debian) at hs-esslingen.de Received: from mail.hs-esslingen.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (hs-esslingen.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iOKB3NU5ry78; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 16:08:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from rznt8102.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de (rznt8102.hs-esslingen.de [134.108.29.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.hs-esslingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 16:08:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from RZNT8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de ([169.254.3.25]) by rznt8102.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de ([fe80::f977:d5e6:6b09:56ac%10]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 16:08:48 +0100 From: "Scharf, Michael" To: Toerless Eckert CC: Lou Berger , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" , "Black, David" , 'J?nos Farkas' , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , DetNet WG Thread-Topic: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 Thread-Index: AQHUfJc7SjWwwPVPU0Kw0Qdv1i6Da6VQu7FAgACmjACAAOacIA== Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 15:08:47 +0000 Message-ID: <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D15C79C@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> References: <0bb7176c-c386-b863-a4f8-06254f4627ab@ericsson.com> <1705d15c-c7ba-c76f-88db-c75f1a88db0f@ericsson.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D143BE1@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D15213B@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D152997@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <20181115035637.7lzevvoeulr7qm7h@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D15BB90@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <20181115225358.mbhdw2kcaftyt45v@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <20181115225358.mbhdw2kcaftyt45v@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [134.108.29.249] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 15:08:57 -0000 > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 01:18:09PM +0000, Scharf, Michael wrote: > > My comments are about the question what happens if DetNet packets get > dropped despite that this should _never_ happen in normal operation. > There can be different reasons for packet drops in a managed network. > One root cause would be that the DetNet traffic gets routed erroneously > over a DetNet unaware node somewhere in the Internet and then causes > harm there. >=20 > Understood. >=20 > > For inelastic traffic, if such packet loss persists, that flow (at > least on the path where losses occur) may need to be blocked for safety > reasons. I assume that is what you suggest in your last sentence? >=20 > Yes. Of course, i can not speak for the authors, and i don't think so > far this type of detail for the PREOF functions have been required, > but i certainly think it would make the PEF/POF a lot more useful if it > would include diagnostics about packet loss - and that could then be > used to trigger some control/management-plane circuit breaker. Thanks a lot for the clarification. Such a safety mechanism would address a= lot of my concerns. Michael >=20 > Cheers > Toerless >=20 > > Michael > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:tte@cs.fau.de] > > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 4:57 AM > > To: Scharf, Michael > > Cc: Black, David; Lou Berger; 'J?nos Farkas'; tsv-art@ietf.org; > DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft- > ietf-detnet-architecture-08 > > > > On Fri, Nov 09, 2018 at 06:38:30AM +0000, Scharf, Michael wrote: > > > Indeed. > > > > > > And, as noted in my earlier way, depending on how the PRF is > realized DetNet may even shield DetNet traffic from packet losses due > to congestion, i.e., even traffic that would be able to react to > congestion may not react due to DetNet. If DetNet is able to mask > congestion from the carried traffic, special care is needed inside > DetNet. > > > > I don't think we should complicate the matters by talking about > DetNet > > flows that may react to congestion. I don't think this is in scope of > > the current architecture. > > > > AFAIK, all DetNet flows have a known envelope, and DetNet flows > should > > be shutdown (filtered/blocked) by the DetNet service whenever they > exceed > > the envelope (*). > > > > Within the envelope of DetNet flows, there is no useful support > > for congestion loss, because congestion constitutes a > misconfiguration > > or misbehavior of the DetNet service. > > > > PEF/POF could actually act as a circuit breaker using the maximum > > permissible loss of the envelope as a trigger to make the PRF stop > > the flow. That would be a good feature for the PREOF. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > (*) I am not sure if DetNet intends to make such a strong > > statement, but from what i heard, this is usually done in TSN > > applications: > > > > If you have an interlocked system and a sender exceeds its > > envelope, that indicates a malfunctioning sender, and there is > > no way to design a safe&secure system with randomnly > > malfunctioning components. Shutting down a component by > > stopping its traffic is a supported system behavior resulting > > typically in bringing up redundant components or shutting down > > parts of the system. Unknown component behavior results in > > unpredictable system behavior, often catastrophic. > > > > > > That quoted comment is followed by a "reduce to previous case" > argument > > > > about networking in general: > > > > > > > > > > WRT escaped traffic, as I mentioned in today's session, I > really > > > > think > > > > > > this is no difference between escaped DetNet traffic and > traffic > > > > > > delivered over an uncongested network to a peer (congested or > > > > > > uncongested) network. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, that argument leads to a contradiction, namely a > > > > conclusion that congestion control is not necessary for the > Internet, > > > > which is known to be wrong. Having arrived at a result that > > > > mathematicians would call "proof by contradiction," one of the > > > > assumptions that lead to this point has to be wrong, but which > one? > > > > > > > > The "clear, simple and wrong" (Mencken) approach to resolving > this > > > > would be to focus on the inelastic traffic and require that all > DetNet > > > > traffic MUST be congestion controlled. I'm not advocating this, > and > > > > neither is Michael. > > > > > > > > A more subtle approach (with credit to Deb Brungard for an > insightful > > > > discussion after RTGAREA yesterday) is to recognize that DetNet > is a > > > > Controlled Environment, to which different rules apply than the > > > > Internet and networks in general. For the definition of > Controlled > > > > Environment, see Section 3.6 of RFC 8085 > > > > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8085#section-3.6). For now, > please > > > > ignore the material in that section on safety, robustness and > > > > corruption, as inapplicable to this discussion. FWIW, that > material > > > > was motivated by the incessant attempts to optimize out UDP > checksums > > > > without serious consideration of the resulting packet corruption > risks > > > > and the potential consequences thereof. Viewing DetNet as a > Controlled > > > > Environment, this discussion is then primarily about what to > require/do > > > > at the boundary between the DetNet Controlled Environment and > other > > > > networks. I've been there, done that for other Controlled > Environments > > > > ... and have the scars ... from the worked examples in RFC 7510 > > > > (MPLS/UDP) and RFC 8086's TMCE (Traffic Management Controlled > > > > Environment) applicability scenario for GRE/UDP. Those two RFCs > may be > > > > helpful background reading. > > > > > > > > The good news here is that we are not as far from agreeing on a > > > > solution as might appear from the length of this discussion. > Going > > > > back to a couple of chunks of text that Janos proposed earlier: > > > > > > > > NEW: > > > > This document provides the overall Architecture for > Deterministic > > > > Networking (DetNet), which provides a capability for the > delivery > > > > of > > > > data flows with extremely low packet loss rates and bounded > end- > > > > to- > > > > end delivery latency within a network domain. DetNet is for > > > > networks > > > > that are under a single administrative control or within a > closed > > > > group > > > > of administrative control; these include campus-wide > networks and > > > > private WANs. DetNet is not for large groups of domains > such as > > > > the > > > > Internet. > > > > > > > > That reads to me as a clear statement that a DetNet network is a > > > > Controlled Environment, so I would hope that we're in agreement > on > > > > that. > > > > > > > > NEW: > > > > Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of > possible > > > > failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet > network > > > > to > > > > detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong > interface, or > > > > at > > > > the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, > filters and > > > > policers can take action to discard offending packets or > flows, > > > > or > > > > trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or > shutting down > > > > the offending interface. > > > > > > > > That proposed text actually contains two circuit breakers, > "shutting > > > > down the offending DetNet flow" or "shutting down the offending > > > > interface." So far, so good, but what's missing is text on > deployment > > > > requirements of the mechanisms described in that text, > particularly at > > > > the edges of DetNet networks. > > > > > > Yep, strict deployment requirements are needed. > > > > > > > Text that requires deployment of "filters and policers ... [that] > > > > discard offending [DetNet] packets and flows" at the boundaries > between > > > > DetNet and non-DetNet networks would go a long way towards > resolving > > > > this discussion. I would suggest expanding "offending" into text > that > > > > includes all unauthorized DetNet traffic and all unexpected > DetNet > > > > traffic. Once that's done, the "circuit breaker" discussion > becomes > > > > more tractable, as the discarding of all DetNet traffic that > would > > > > otherwise escape the DetNet network reduces the "circuit breaker" > > > > discussion to the existing DetNet material measures that need to > be > > > > taken inside a DetNet network to protect delivery of DetNet > service. > > > > > > As already mentioned, it is possible that some solutions don't need > any "circuit breaker" as they achieve sufficient robustness by some > other means. I only ask for text that explains how to avoid harm from > non-DetNet networks, not for a specific solution. > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, --David > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Scharf, Michael [mailto:Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de] > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 1:12 PM > > > > > To: Lou Berger; Black, David; 'J=E1nos Farkas' > > > > > Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > > Subject: RE: [Tsv-art] [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of > draft- > > > > ietf-detnet- > > > > > architecture-08 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > > > > Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests > for > > > > sensitive > > > > > information. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Inline > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Tsv-art [mailto:tsv-art-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Lou > > > > Berger > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 8:45 AM > > > > > > To: Black, David; Scharf, Michael; 'J=E1nos Farkas' > > > > > > Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > > > architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of > draft- > > > > ietf- > > > > > > detnet-architecture-08 > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > See below for in-line responses > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/5/2018 12:21 AM, Black, David wrote: > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on > > > > network > > > > > > robustness > > > > > > >>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For > > > > instance, > > > > > > >>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet > > > > > > replication could > > > > > > >>> severely and permanently congest a network and cause > harm. > > > > > > > [... snip ...] > > > > > > >> NEW: > > > > > > >> Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of > > > > possible > > > > > > >> failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet > > > > network to > > > > > > >> detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong > interface, or > > > > at > > > > > > >> the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, > filters and > > > > > > >> policers can take action to discard offending packets or > flows, > > > > or > > > > > > >> trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or > shutting > > > > down > > > > > > >> the offending interface. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> [ms] That does not address my concern. As I wrote already, > I > > > > believe > > > > > > this > > > > > > >> document has to discuss the applicability of circuit > breakers > > > > > > according to RFC > > > > > > >> 8084. > > > > > > > I concur with Michael's implied concern that the "should" > in the > > > > NEW > > > > > > text > > > > > > > is woefully inadequate. The provisions to prevent escaped > non- > > > > > > elastic traffic > > > > > > > from causing damage elsewhere need to be mandatory > particularly > > > > if > > > > > > DetNet > > > > > > > and non-DetNet networks are interconnected. The above > > > > > > > text on filters doesn't appear to cover escape from the > DetNet > > > > > > network, > > > > > > > and needs to do so. Deployment of filters at DetNet nodes > that > > > > drop > > > > > > all > > > > > > > DetNet traffic that tries to escape, and that drop all > > > > misdirected > > > > > > DetNet > > > > > > > traffic should address most of this problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once that is done, I think a discussion of circuit breakers > is > > > > > > needed, in the > > > > > > > form of Detnet service mechanisms that can shut down (cease > > > > > > transmission > > > > > > > of) a flow that is being sent entirely into the bit-bucket > by a > > > > > > downstream filter, > > > > > > > due to misconfiguration, failure, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we have a bit of a disconnect of what DetNet service > > > > delivers. > > > > > > > > > > > > DetNet does not itself impact any Transport protocol=A0 (e.g., > UDP, > > > > TCP) > > > > > > so itself does not *produce* elastic or non-elastic traffic. > > > > > > > > > > First, the question whether DetNet *produces* elastic or non- > elastic > > > > traffic does > > > > > not matter for the applicability of circuit breakers. Section 3 > of > > > > RFC 8084 states: > > > > > > > > > > CBs are RECOMMENDED for IETF protocols and tunnels that > carry non- > > > > > congestion-controlled Internet flows and for traffic > aggregates. > > > > > This includes traffic sent using a network tunnel. > Designers of > > > > > other protocols and tunnel encapsulations also ought to > consider > > > > the > > > > > use of these techniques as a last resort to protect traffic > that > > > > > shares the network path being used. > > > > > > > > > > Section 3.2.1.1 of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-09 explains > > > > explicitly that > > > > > DetNet can carry non-congestion-controlled traffic: > > > > > > > > > > Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled, i.e., its > > > > > transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion > > > > > notification. > > > > > > > > > > So, clearly the condition of carrying non-congestion-controlled > flows > > > > or traffic > > > > > aggregates applies to the DetNet architecture. And, as a > result, the > > > > > RECOMMENDED in RFC 8084 is in principle applicable to DetNet. > Also, > > > > note that > > > > > the RECOMMENDED in RFC 8084 is not limited to tunnels. > > > > > > > > > > As pointed out by David, the key question is whether, and how, > the > > > > DetNet > > > > > architecture prevents that non-congestion controlled traffic > escapes > > > > from a > > > > > controlled environment into the Internet. As also explained in > RFC > > > > 8084, this > > > > > question in particular matters for failure scenarios. > > > > > > > > > > As TSV-ART reviewer, I insist in a discussion of this problem > in > > > > draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > > architecture. And I believe that a reference to RFC 8084 is > needed in > > > > draft-ietf- > > > > > detnet-architecture. > > > > > > > > > > Note that the wording in RFC 8084 is RECOMMENDED and not MUST, > i.e., > > > > it is > > > > > possible that circuit breakers may not be needed for certain > > > > solutions. As an > > > > > example, MPLS traffic may not easily escape from a managed MPLS > > > > network. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second, in my TSV-ART review I have explicitly mentioned the > DetNet > > > > Packet > > > > > Replication Function (PRF). Replicating non-elastic traffic may > > > > create additional > > > > > challenges if the replicated packets can somehow escape into > the > > > > Internet, e.g., > > > > > in failure cases. For instance, as far as I understand draft- > ietf- > > > > detnet- > > > > > architecture, I assume the PRF can replicate non-congestion- > > > > controlled traffic > > > > > and forward it along different paths. If one of these paths > escapes > > > > to the > > > > > Internet, to the Internet the PRF could basically be a producer > of > > > > non-congestion > > > > > controlled traffic, and that traffic could cause significant > harm in > > > > the Internet. > > > > > Also, note that in that case it may not necessarily help if the > > > > traffic carried by > > > > > DetNet is elastic, e.g., if DetNet carries TCP traffic. For > instance, > > > > if other paths > > > > > used by the PRF within the DetNet domain would deliver all > packets, > > > > the > > > > > congestion control in TCP would not never be triggered as each > packet > > > > gets > > > > > indeed delivered over one of the paths. So, an unelastic > traffic > > > > stream would > > > > > escale into the Internet and never back off. Unless I miss > something, > > > > DetNet > > > > > needs counter-means to prevent this sort of issues. > > > > > > > > > > As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe draft-ietf-detnet-architecture > needs a > > > > dedicated > > > > > discussion whether the PRF can cause harm and, if so, how to > avoid > > > > such harm. > > > > > > > > > > > DetNet operates at Layer 3 and basically provides detnet > flows with > > > > a > > > > > > service equivalent to IntServ's Guaranteed Quality of > Service.=A0 As > > > > > > such, > > > > > > DetNet flows basically operate as if the network is > uncongested. > > > > > > > > > > RFC 8084 exactly addresses that case. The question is not the > normal > > > > operation > > > > > of the network, but abnormal cases. > > > > > > > > > > > WRT escaped traffic, as I mentioned in today's session, I > really > > > > think > > > > > > this is no difference between escaped DetNet traffic and > traffic > > > > > > delivered over an uncongested network to a peer (congested or > > > > > > uncongested) network. > > > > > > > > > > That comes down to how the DetNet network deals with abnormal > > > > situations at > > > > > the edges, e.g., for the problems mentioned in RFC 8084: > > > > > > > > > > o anomalous traffic that exceeds the provisioned capacity > (or > > > > whose > > > > > traffic characteristics exceed the threshold configured > for the > > > > > CB); > > > > > > > > > > o traffic generated by an application at a time when the > > > > provisioned > > > > > network capacity is being utilized for other purposes; > > > > > > > > > > o routing changes that cause additional traffic to start > using > > > > the > > > > > path monitored by the CB; > > > > > > > > > > o misconfiguration of a service/network device where the > capacity > > > > > available is insufficient to support the current traffic > > > > > aggregate; > > > > > > > > > > o misconfiguration of an admission controller or traffic > policer > > > > > that allows more traffic than expected across the path > > > > monitored > > > > > by the CB. > > > > > > > > > > According to the last point, misconfiguration of > filters/policies is > > > > one of the > > > > > challenges to look at. > > > > > > > > > > > Based on all this, I'm not sure how or why a=A0 discussion of > circuit > > > > > > breakers is needed. > > > > > > > > > > RFC 8084 represents IETF community consensus. And in my reading > the > > > > DetNet > > > > > architecture falls into the type of solutions discussed in RFC > 8084. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, --David > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > > > >> From: Tsv-art [mailto:tsv-art-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of > > > > Scharf, > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > >> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:44 PM > > > > > > >> To: 'J=E1nos Farkas' > > > > > > >> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > > > architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft- > ietf- > > > > detnet- > > > > > > architecture-08 > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > > > > > >> Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or > requests for > > > > > > sensitive > > > > > > >> information. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Hi Janos, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Thanks for the reply. My comments are inline [ms]. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I have omitted all proposed changes that work for me. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Michael > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > > > >> From: J=E1nos Farkas > > > > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 10:56 AM > > > > > > >> To: Scharf, Michael > > > > > > >> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > architecture.all@ietf.org; > > > > > > DetNet WG > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Subject: Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > > > architecture-08 > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Hi Michael, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Thank you very much for the thorough review and good > comments! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Please find below in-line responses and how we plan to > update > > > > the > > > > > > draft to > > > > > > >> resolve your comments. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Best regards, > > > > > > >> Janos > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> On 9/29/2018 12:24 AM, Michael Scharf wrote: > > > > > > >>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf > > > > > > >>> Review result: Ready with Issues > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" > > > > > > >>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall > > > > framework > > > > > > for > > > > > > >>> Deterministic Networking. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has > issues as > > > > > > >>> detailed below. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Michael > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Major issues: > > > > > > >> [...] > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> DetNet > > > > > > >>> basically requires support in (almost) all network > devices > > > > > > >>> transporting DetNet traffic. That assumption should be > > > > explicitly > > > > > > >>> spelt out early in the document, e.g., in the > introduction. > > > > > > >> Actually, some form of DetNet support is required from > each node > > > > > > that > > > > > > >> transports DetNet traffic. For instance, DetNet flows have > to be > > > > > > recognized in > > > > > > >> order not to spoil their QoS at the minimum. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> [ms] I look for an clear explanation in the architecture > > > > document of > > > > > > what "some > > > > > > >> form of DetNet support" exactly means. For instance, is > standard > > > > > > MPLS TE > > > > > > >> without any DetNet support good enough for an LSR on the > IP/MPLS > > > > > > path used > > > > > > >> by DetNet traffic, or not? As an example, when I read the > > > > following > > > > > > paragraph in > > > > > > >> draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-mpls-01 ... > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Transit nodes are normal MPLS Label Switching Routers > > > > (LSRs). > > > > > > They > > > > > > >> are generally unaware of the special requirements of > DetNet > > > > > > flows, > > > > > > >> although they need to provide traffic engineering > services > > > > and > > > > > > proper > > > > > > >> QoS to the LSPs associated with DetNet flows to > enhance the > > > > > > prospect > > > > > > >> of the LSPs meeting the DetNet service requirements. > Some > > > > > > >> implementations of transit nodes may be DetNet aware, > but > > > > such > > > > > > nodes > > > > > > >> just support the DetNet transport layer. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> ... I could maybe assume that actually there can be > "transit > > > > nodes" > > > > > > that do not > > > > > > >> require *any* sort of DetNet support or DetNet awareness. > Is > > > > that > > > > > > correct? I > > > > > > >> think the architecture document has to be clear on such > > > > fundamental > > > > > > questions. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> The Introduction could be extended to clarify, e.g., the > third > > > > > > paragraph: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> OLD: > > > > > > >> A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. > That > > > > is, > > > > > > the presence of > > > > > > >> DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the > > > > benefits > > > > > > offered > > > > > > >> DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, prevent > > > > existing > > > > > > QoS > > > > > > >> mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, subject to > the > > > > > > bandwidth > > > > > > >> required for the DetNet flows. A single source-destination > pair > > > > can > > > > > > trade both > > > > > > >> DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End systems and applications > need > > > > not > > > > > > >> instantiate special interfaces for DetNet flows. Networks > are > > > > not > > > > > > restricted to > > > > > > >> certain topologies; connectivity is not restricted. Any > > > > application > > > > > > that generates > > > > > > >> a data flow that can be usefully characterized as having a > > > > maximum > > > > > > bandwidth > > > > > > >> should be able to take advantage of DetNet, as long as the > > > > necessary > > > > > > resources > > > > > > >> can be reserved. Reservations can be made by the > application > > > > itself, > > > > > > via network > > > > > > >> management, by an application???s controller, or by other > means, > > > > e.g., > > > > > > a dynamic > > > > > > >> control plane (e.g., [RFC2205]). > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> NEW: > > > > > > >> A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. > That > > > > is, > > > > > > the presence of > > > > > > >> DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the > > > > benefits > > > > > > offered > > > > > > >> DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, prevent > > > > existing > > > > > > QoS > > > > > > >> mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, subject to > the > > > > > > bandwidth > > > > > > >> required for the DetNet flows. A single source-destination > pair > > > > can > > > > > > trade both > > > > > > >> DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End systems and applications > need > > > > not > > > > > > >> instantiate special interfaces for DetNet flows. Networks > are > > > > not > > > > > > restricted to > > > > > > >> certain topologies; connectivity is not restricted. Any > > > > application > > > > > > that generates > > > > > > >> a data flow that can be usefully characterized as having a > > > > maximum > > > > > > bandwidth > > > > > > >> should be able to take advantage of DetNet, as long as the > > > > necessary > > > > > > resources > > > > > > >> can be reserved. Reservations can be made by the > application > > > > itself, > > > > > > via network > > > > > > >> management, by an application???s controller, or by other > means, > > > > e.g., > > > > > > a dynamic > > > > > > >> control plane (e.g., [RFC2205]). Network nodes supporting > DetNet > > > > > > flows have to > > > > > > >> implement some of the DetNet capabilities (not necessarily > all) > > > > in > > > > > > order to treat > > > > > > >> DetNet flows such that their QoS requirements are met. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> [ms] To me, the last sentence is not clear. Does "some of > the > > > > DetNet > > > > > > capabilities > > > > > > >> (not necessarily all)" include e.g. vanilla traffic > engineering? > > > > For > > > > > > instance, if a > > > > > > >> network node can ensure that the QoS requirements are met > by > > > > > > leveraging > > > > > > >> existing standardized TE without any additional DetNet > > > > awareness, is > > > > > > this > > > > > > >> enough for deploying DetNet? Or does this node have to > implement > > > > > > additional > > > > > > >> DetNet-specific functionality? Specifically, please > explain if > > > > an > > > > > > existing DetNet- > > > > > > >> unaware router on the path taken by DetNet traffic can be > used > > > > to > > > > > > forward > > > > > > >> DetNet traffic, or if it is mandatory that any router > forwarding > > > > > > DetNet traffic > > > > > > >> indeed implements new capabilities specific to DetNet. In > the > > > > latter > > > > > > case, I think > > > > > > >> the document would need to discuss incremental deployment > > > > strategies > > > > > > as well. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on > > > > network > > > > > > robustness > > > > > > >>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For > > > > instance, > > > > > > >>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet > > > > > > replication could > > > > > > >>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. > How > > > > does > > > > > > the DetNet > > > > > > >>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully > operational e.g. > > > > if > > > > > > the topology > > > > > > >>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this > can be > > > > > > solved by > > > > > > >>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why > are > > > > > > corresponding > > > > > > >>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that > > > > filters > > > > > > and policers > > > > > > >>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still > assumes > > > > > > consistently > > > > > > >>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And > > > > Section > > > > > > 3.3.2 is > > > > > > >>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible > failures" > > > > > > without stating > > > > > > >>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further > > > > > > solutions, such as > > > > > > >>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not > > > > discussed? > > > > > > >> Security issues and considerations are addressed by the > DetNet > > > > > > Security > > > > > > >> draft: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > security. > > > > > > >> Reference to the=A0 DetNet Security draft will be added. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> There will be a document dedicated to Operations, > Administration > > > > and > > > > > > >> Maintenance (OAM), which will address operational, > > > > misconfiguration, > > > > > > and > > > > > > >> failure detection issues. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> The topology changes have to be solved by the control > plane, > > > > either > > > > > > >> centralized or distributed. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> The filters and policers described in Section 3.3.2 also > provide > > > > > > >> robustness by eliminating/mitigating traffic coming from > > > > > > malfunctioning > > > > > > >> devices. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> RFC2475 is recommended for traffic policing functions to > > > > increase > > > > > > >> robustness. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> The text=A0 in Section 3.3.2 could be made clearer, e.g., by > > > > updating > > > > > > the > > > > > > >> first paragraph to: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> OLD: > > > > > > >> One key to building robust real-time systems is to reduce > the > > > > > > >> infinite variety of possible failures to a number that can > be > > > > > > >> analyzed with reasonable confidence. DetNet aids in the > process > > > > by > > > > > > >> allowing for filters and policers to detect DetNet packets > > > > received > > > > > > >> on the wrong interface, or at the wrong time, or in too > great a > > > > > > >> volume, and to then take actions such as discarding the > > > > offending > > > > > > >> packet, shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or > shutting > > > > down > > > > > > the > > > > > > >> offending interface. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> NEW: > > > > > > >> Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of > > > > possible > > > > > > >> failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet > > > > network to > > > > > > >> detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong > interface, or > > > > at > > > > > > >> the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, > filters and > > > > > > >> policers can take action to discard offending packets or > flows, > > > > or > > > > > > >> trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or > shutting > > > > down > > > > > > >> the offending interface. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> [ms] That does not address my concern. As I wrote already, > I > > > > believe > > > > > > this > > > > > > >> document has to discuss the applicability of circuit > breakers > > > > > > according to RFC > > > > > > >> 8084. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of > > > > failures > > > > > > to the QoS of > > > > > > >>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to > protect > > > > non- > > > > > > DetNet parts > > > > > > >>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. > > > > Solutions > > > > > > to this > > > > > > >>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet > traffic > > > > (e.g., > > > > > > in case of > > > > > > >>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not > discussed > > > > at > > > > > > all in the document? > > > > > > >> Actually the regulation of DetNet traffic by polices and > filters > > > > > > >> protects both other DetNet traffic and non-DetNet traffic. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Section 3.3.1 could be extended to make it clear, e.g., by > > > > extending > > > > > > the > > > > > > >> last paragraph: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> OLD: > > > > > > >> Ideally, the net effect of the presence of DetNet flows in > a > > > > network > > > > > > >> on the non-DetNet packets is primarily a reduction in the > > > > available > > > > > > >> bandwidth. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> NEW: > > > > > > >> Traffic policing functions (e.g. [RFC2475]) are used to > avoid > > > > the > > > > > > >> starvation of non-DetNet traffic. Thus, the net effect of > the > > > > > > presence > > > > > > >> of DetNet flows in a network on non-DetNet flows is > primarily a > > > > > > >> reduction in the available bandwidth. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> [ms] I believe a stronger wording is needed, e.g. along > the > > > > lines of > > > > > > "a DetNet > > > > > > >> deployment must avoid starvation of non-DetNet traffic > ...". > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> [...] > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an > informational RFC > > > > on > > > > > > IRTF stream, > > > > > > >>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there > (e.g., > > > > > > "planes"). This is > > > > > > >>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should > > > > probably > > > > > > refer to > > > > > > >>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC > 7491, > > > > > > albeit there is > > > > > > >>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, > > > > Section > > > > > > 4.4 is by and > > > > > > >>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not > specific > > > > to > > > > > > DetNet. > > > > > > >>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the > concepts > > > > > > introduced in > > > > > > >>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet > terminology or > > > > > > discuss > > > > > > >>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions > explicitly > > > > at > > > > > > the end that > > > > > > >>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet > > > > > > architecture. It is not > > > > > > >>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section > 4.4 > > > > could > > > > > > be removed > > > > > > >>> from the document without impacting the rest of the > document. > > > > > > >> The document should point out to traffic engineering and > > > > centralized > > > > > > >> control plane aspects, so it is better to keep Section > 4.4. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> RFC 7426 provides the full picture of SDN architecture, > which > > > > needs > > > > > > to > > > > > > >> be referred from the DetNet architecture. No other RFC > provides > > > > such > > > > > > >> detailed picture. Therefore, we need to keep the reference > to > > > > RFC > > > > > > 7426, > > > > > > >> which is an informative reference. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> [ms] I'll leave that up to the IESG to decide whether an > IETF > > > > > > proposed standard > > > > > > >> should build an architecture based on research work > instead of, > > > > say, > > > > > > documents > > > > > > >> with IETF consensus. As a side note, I believe the > understanding > > > > in > > > > > > industry what > > > > > > >> "SDN architecture" really means and how it is implemented > may > > > > have > > > > > > evolved > > > > > > >> since publication of IRTF RFC 7426, which was published in > Jan. > > > > > > 2015. For > > > > > > >> instance, IRTF RFC 7426 does not discuss the implications > of > > > > segment > > > > > > routing, > > > > > > >> BGP-LS, and other recent IETF techniques. And, based on > what I > > > > read > > > > > > in the > > > > > > >> DetNet architecture, I believe DetNet could actually be > > > > implemented > > > > > > without > > > > > > >> any "SDN architecture", e.g. by distributed traffic > engineering. > > > > As > > > > > > a result, I don't > > > > > > >> even understand the need to discuss "SDN". > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> [ms] For the record: As TSV-ART reviewer, I question > whether > > > > IRTF > > > > > > RFC 7426 is > > > > > > >> indeed an appropriate reference, I have doubts that IRTF > RFC > > > > 7426 is > > > > > > really up- > > > > > > >> to-date, and I am concerned about the content quality of > section > > > > > > 4.4, e.g., > > > > > > >> regarding the lack of alignment with the rest of the > document. > > > > The > > > > > > IESG will > > > > > > >> certainly have a better understanding that than me how to > deal > > > > with > > > > > > such topics. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> The related work in TEAS is already referred to. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> [...] > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> Minor issues: > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in > the > > > > IETF, > > > > > > e.g. > > > > > > >>> originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. > > > > "transport > > > > > > network" is > > > > > > >>> used in the IETF for different technologies in different > areas, > > > > I > > > > > > think the > > > > > > >>> term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer > to > > > > > > transport > > > > > > >>> protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find > the > > > > term > > > > > > "DetNet > > > > > > >>> transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion > is > > > > easy to > > > > > > see e.g. > > > > > > >>> in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as > per > > > > RFC > > > > > > 1122) sits > > > > > > >>> on top of "transport". > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Based on the document it also may be > solution/implementation > > > > > > specific > > > > > > >> whether > > > > > > >>> the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate > protocol > > > > layer > > > > > > compared > > > > > > >>> to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me > why > > > > the > > > > > > word > > > > > > >>> "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination > "transport > > > > > > layer". > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport > protocol") > > > > > > should be > > > > > > >>> used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with > RFC > > > > 1122. > > > > > > But this is > > > > > > >>> probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. > > > > > > >> "transport" is used here as in "packet transport networks" > not > > > > as > > > > > > OSI L4 > > > > > > >> transport. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> [ms] At the risk of stating the obvious: The relevant > section of > > > > RFC > > > > > > 1122 defining > > > > > > >> "transport layer" is entitled by "The Internet > Architecture". > > > > And, > > > > > > according e.g. > > > > > > >> to RFC 5921, "packet transport network" is a term defined > by > > > > ITU-T. > > > > > > In an IETF > > > > > > >> document, I believe IETF terminology should be used. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I suggest to use the terms "DetNet transport sub-layer" > and > > > > "DetNet > > > > > > >> service sub-layer" throughout the document, which would > > > > hopefully > > > > > > avoid > > > > > > >> confusion. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> [ms] "DetNet transport sub-layer" somewhat solves my > concern of > > > > > > avoiding the > > > > > > >> expression "transport layer". To really avoid confusion, I > > > > believe > > > > > > it would be > > > > > > >> better to avoid the ambiguous term "transport" altogether. > But > > > > I > > > > > > will be fine if > > > > > > >> all DetNet documents consistently avoid the term > "transport > > > > layer". > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Michael > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > >> Tsv-art mailing list > > > > > > >> Tsv-art@ietf.org > > > > > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > detnet mailing list > > > > > > > detnet@ietf.org > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Tsv-art mailing list > > > > > > Tsv-art@ietf.org > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art > > > _______________________________________________ > > > detnet mailing list > > > detnet@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >=20 > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Fri Nov 16 08:56:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46A89130DC5 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 08:56:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mailfence.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0uKAhmr07nsF for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 08:56:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout-l3b-97.contactoffice.com (mailout-l3b-97.contactoffice.com [212.3.242.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0966012426A for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 08:56:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpauth1.co-bxl (smtpauth1.co-bxl [10.2.0.15]) by mailout-l3b-97.contactoffice.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D7B4864 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 17:56:00 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mailfence.com; s=20160819-nLV10XS2; t=1542387360; bh=M6QhSKQMPkH6y9GOGHexvGtV5WF9iJUiHU9N0pAaryg=; h=References:In-Reply-To:From:Date:Subject:To:Cc:From; b=VydJQVDI91iySnbay+1YTHS1Xr88M4pE7+XER5yDuJMDzJgxiQV3WWuNm9fhvS9zD YjPAr1ViAVNtXkxNLo3Q9HVFqFKjRZR+Nuzb5zaH0PsQkUK/+QW6bjzwm39Y5TtcFm puAF23JjjEmYBNrfYOPejv937LAIWP+r1wdWMEP2wHDl/yurVovJeOO7dAmbI7/RbR LV84ZFLDiuyNTqc75YXNo0otkP7zqQPqAjckdujcZ65MZjyHu1TzEPMyefSus/42SK dmQSlHn5gNDRf7IwWU+9DrpQMxthUtWcnGRA6jcsAC3yNU1COS8I5S3Q8cFscAHuSm u6c92L2NyyUMQ== Received: from mail-it1-f179.google.com ([209.85.166.179]) by smtp.mailfence.com (envelope-from ) with ESMTPA for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 17:55:54 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail-it1-f179.google.com with SMTP id b5so431150iti.2 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 08:55:54 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gK9EYVqtb4BQ5sCUl4ACUQ9ho4+AtbeYEx6RL/NWgms69E/hdP0 PQWmp9lsr9c8G5DlvIkY2ww9IsvYDrfyw8LJKdA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5edOuwVFupUryloxXcr4m9VjPJLkS/PPXINBy1l9/ee03SJON6THyFwD1Y0Qe4Fv31CXz1AQoA8oLmVbJ1HJC8= X-Received: by 2002:a24:6102:: with SMTP id s2-v6mr10421311itc.16.1542387348985; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 08:55:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181115233323.iq32dqiyezyaqiez@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <40E507F6-A5F5-4627-B2C3-07969534BE39@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <40E507F6-A5F5-4627-B2C3-07969534BE39@cisco.com> From: Remous-Aris Koutsiamanis Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 17:55:56 +0100 (CET) X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Cc: tte@cs.fau.de, mach.chen@huawei.com, detnet@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000ae4e9057acb0ae1" X-ContactOffice-Account: com:113819248 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Controlling Replication X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 16:56:05 -0000 --0000000000000ae4e9057acb0ae1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, thanks Pascal, Toerless, and Mach for the very helpful comments and pointers. Just as some context, I was looking for something which can control replication for my work on draft-koutsiamanis-roll-nsa-extension. I have looked at BIER-TE and it does look very interesting. I think that BIER-TE is a different approach in this case, so it makes sense that it provides no way to do replication control in the network, since everything is decided in the controller. I will also look at the YANG-based configuration solution in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-yang-00. Again, thanks a lot. Kind regards, Aris On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 5:24 AM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) < pthubert@cisco.com> wrote: > Hello Toerless > > Not to mention OAM. The draft provides all in one a per-packet control of > the segments to be traversed and the exploration of the possible > trajectories of the replicas. > > As an OAM technique, BIER TE provides a very concise expression for the > status of the individual segments. . > > With this draft one can automate the enablement of segment to continuousl= y > providing redundancy while avoiding bandwidth and energy wastes. > > Being concise is critical in wireless but valuable everywhere. BIER as a > WG does not need it - we do. But it would be great that they give a stamp > of approval for the whole design before they give it back to DetNet - or > PAW. > > Take care. > > Pascal > > > Le 16 nov. 2018 =C3=A0 00:33, Toerless Eckert a =C3=A9c= rit : > > > > Remous-Aris, > > > > We did propose BIER-TE as a possible transport in DetNet, but so far > > there was no feedback re. that proposal. I still think > > that BIER-TE would be a great lightweigt transport option, but maybe > > there is too little understanding DetNet of its benefits yet in the WG. > > Note that BIER-TE would support both unicast/multicast as well as PRF. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > >> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 05:57:36PM +0100, Remous-Aris Koutsiamanis > wrote: > >> Hello, > >> > >> I have been reading through the material in the DetNet WG in search fo= r > a > >> specific mechanism for controlling replication. > >> I have not found something very specific, e.g. a header field > indicating to > >> enable replications or to do N replications, until now. > >> I have found BIER-TE, however, as far as I can tell the replication > >> decision (to which next hops to forward to) in this case is made > beforehand > >> in the controller, not in each intermediate node. > >> Would someone be kind enough to either point me in the right direction > if > >> there is such functionality or confirm that there is nothing of this > kind > >> specified (yet). > >> > >> Kind regards, > >> Remous-Aris Koutsiamanis > >> IMT Atlantique, France > > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> detnet mailing list > >> detnet@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > > -- > > --- > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --0000000000000ae4e9057acb0ae1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,

than= ks Pascal, Toerless, and Mach for the very helpful comments and pointers.

Just as some context, I was looking for something w= hich can control replication for my work on draft-koutsiamanis-roll-nsa-ext= ension.
I have looked at BIER-TE and it does look very= interesting. I think that BIER-TE is a different approach in this case, so= it makes=20 sense that it provides no way to do replication control in the network,=20 since everything is decided in the controller.
I will also look a= t the YANG-based configuration solution in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-de= tnet-yang-00.

Again, thanks a lot.
<= br>
Kind regards,
Aris


On Fri, Nov = 16, 2018 at 5:24 AM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:
Hello Toerless

Not to mention OAM. The draft provides all in one a per-packet control of t= he segments to be traversed and the exploration of the possible trajectorie= s of the replicas.

As an OAM technique, BIER TE provides a very concise expression for the sta= tus of the individual segments. .

With this draft one can automate the enablement of segment to continuously = providing redundancy while avoiding bandwidth and energy wastes.

Being concise is critical in wireless but valuable everywhere. BIER as a WG= does not need it - we do. But it would be great that they give a stamp of = approval for the whole design before they give it back to DetNet - or PAW.<= br>
Take care.

Pascal

> Le 16 nov. 2018 =C3=A0 00:33, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> a =C3=A9crit :
>
> Remous-Aris,
>
> We did propose BIER-TE as a possible transport in DetNet, but so far > there was no feedback re. that proposal.=C2=A0 I still think
> that BIER-TE would be a great lightweigt transport option, but maybe > there is too little understanding DetNet of its benefits yet in the WG= .
> Note that BIER-TE would support both unicast/multicast as well as PRF.=
>
> Cheers
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless
>
>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 05:57:36PM +0100, Remous-Aris Koutsiamanis= wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have been reading through the material in the DetNet WG in searc= h for a
>> specific mechanism for controlling replication.
>> I have not found something very specific, e.g. a header field indi= cating to
>> enable replications or to do N replications, until now.
>> I have found BIER-TE, however, as far as I can tell the replicatio= n
>> decision (to which next hops to forward to) in this case is made b= eforehand
>> in the controller, not in each intermediate node.
>> Would someone be kind enough to either point me in the right direc= tion if
>> there is such functionality or confirm that there is nothing of th= is kind
>> specified (yet).
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Remous-Aris Koutsiamanis
>> IMT Atlantique, France
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> detnet mailing list
>> detnet@ietf.o= rg
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
>
>
> --
> ---
> tte@cs.fau.de >
> _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet _______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
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MXHUB310.corp.emc.com (MXHUB310.corp.emc.com [10.146.3.36]) by mailusrhubprd01.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id wAGH0woZ027268 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Nov 2018 12:00:58 -0500 Received: from MX307CL04.corp.emc.com ([fe80::849f:5da2:11b:4385]) by MXHUB310.corp.emc.com ([10.146.3.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 12:00:57 -0500 To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Lou Berger CC: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] pulling packets Thread-Index: AdR7DhnsUHHFp74PReiHX8huqYyB6AA4VCxgAAQZfzAACrJHgAABGCtQACKfciIAP9rDAAADCiZQ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 17:00:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0a888d461d734751babf6487d3f9bbf2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com>, , <8D171B16-FD22-46CD-9D2B-24070F2DC433@cisco.com> <6EDA7130-E283-4D72-B9DD-0211BB12E763@cisco.com>, <0C722534-D42B-4822-8E64-354DAD00BB03@cisco.com> <16716367170.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> <6aca818a9f5444ecbc75200a8f121943@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <6aca818a9f5444ecbc75200a8f121943@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.105.8.135] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D2432779493630347616MX307CL04corpem_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd01.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-11-16_10:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1811160151 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] pulling packets X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org 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ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AF10128DFD; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 11:24:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y5GjSAeaNnTO; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 11:23:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 381511292AD; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 11:23:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D13F8548135; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 20:23:52 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id B6AB4440210; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 20:23:52 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 20:23:52 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: "Scharf, Michael" Cc: Lou Berger , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" , "Black, David" , 'J?nos Farkas' , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , DetNet WG Message-ID: <20181116192352.plppsalhvsgbpblt@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D143BE1@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D15213B@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D152997@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <20181115035637.7lzevvoeulr7qm7h@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D15BB90@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <20181115225358.mbhdw2kcaftyt45v@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D15C79C@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D15C79C@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 19:24:06 -0000 Why does DetNet over IP not simply mandate proper use of DiffServ ? IMHO, all inelastic IP traffic MUST use DSCP appropriate for inelastic traffic (DetNet or not). If i then have a malfunctioning originator of inelastic traffic, say DetNet Network A, and it leaks the traffic to Internet provider B, then B can simply filter out that traffic by DSCP. Don't remember seeing this mentioned in the arch spec. If an endpoint is originating inelastic traffic with DSCP 0, thats not DetNet. That's a broken endpoint. Cheers Toerless On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 03:08:47PM +0000, Scharf, Michael wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 01:18:09PM +0000, Scharf, Michael wrote: > > > My comments are about the question what happens if DetNet packets get > > dropped despite that this should _never_ happen in normal operation. > > There can be different reasons for packet drops in a managed network. > > One root cause would be that the DetNet traffic gets routed erroneously > > over a DetNet unaware node somewhere in the Internet and then causes > > harm there. > > > > Understood. > > > > > For inelastic traffic, if such packet loss persists, that flow (at > > least on the path where losses occur) may need to be blocked for safety > > reasons. I assume that is what you suggest in your last sentence? > > > > Yes. Of course, i can not speak for the authors, and i don't think so > > far this type of detail for the PREOF functions have been required, > > but i certainly think it would make the PEF/POF a lot more useful if it > > would include diagnostics about packet loss - and that could then be > > used to trigger some control/management-plane circuit breaker. > > Thanks a lot for the clarification. Such a safety mechanism would address a lot of my concerns. > > Michael > > > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:tte@cs.fau.de] > > > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 4:57 AM > > > To: Scharf, Michael > > > Cc: Black, David; Lou Berger; 'J?nos Farkas'; tsv-art@ietf.org; > > DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft- > > ietf-detnet-architecture-08 > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 09, 2018 at 06:38:30AM +0000, Scharf, Michael wrote: > > > > Indeed. > > > > > > > > And, as noted in my earlier way, depending on how the PRF is > > realized DetNet may even shield DetNet traffic from packet losses due > > to congestion, i.e., even traffic that would be able to react to > > congestion may not react due to DetNet. If DetNet is able to mask > > congestion from the carried traffic, special care is needed inside > > DetNet. > > > > > > I don't think we should complicate the matters by talking about > > DetNet > > > flows that may react to congestion. I don't think this is in scope of > > > the current architecture. > > > > > > AFAIK, all DetNet flows have a known envelope, and DetNet flows > > should > > > be shutdown (filtered/blocked) by the DetNet service whenever they > > exceed > > > the envelope (*). > > > > > > Within the envelope of DetNet flows, there is no useful support > > > for congestion loss, because congestion constitutes a > > misconfiguration > > > or misbehavior of the DetNet service. > > > > > > PEF/POF could actually act as a circuit breaker using the maximum > > > permissible loss of the envelope as a trigger to make the PRF stop > > > the flow. That would be a good feature for the PREOF. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Toerless > > > > > > (*) I am not sure if DetNet intends to make such a strong > > > statement, but from what i heard, this is usually done in TSN > > > applications: > > > > > > If you have an interlocked system and a sender exceeds its > > > envelope, that indicates a malfunctioning sender, and there is > > > no way to design a safe&secure system with randomnly > > > malfunctioning components. Shutting down a component by > > > stopping its traffic is a supported system behavior resulting > > > typically in bringing up redundant components or shutting down > > > parts of the system. Unknown component behavior results in > > > unpredictable system behavior, often catastrophic. > > > > > > > > That quoted comment is followed by a "reduce to previous case" > > argument > > > > > about networking in general: > > > > > > > > > > > > WRT escaped traffic, as I mentioned in today's session, I > > really > > > > > think > > > > > > > this is no difference between escaped DetNet traffic and > > traffic > > > > > > > delivered over an uncongested network to a peer (congested or > > > > > > > uncongested) network. > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, that argument leads to a contradiction, namely a > > > > > conclusion that congestion control is not necessary for the > > Internet, > > > > > which is known to be wrong. Having arrived at a result that > > > > > mathematicians would call "proof by contradiction," one of the > > > > > assumptions that lead to this point has to be wrong, but which > > one? > > > > > > > > > > The "clear, simple and wrong" (Mencken) approach to resolving > > this > > > > > would be to focus on the inelastic traffic and require that all > > DetNet > > > > > traffic MUST be congestion controlled. I'm not advocating this, > > and > > > > > neither is Michael. > > > > > > > > > > A more subtle approach (with credit to Deb Brungard for an > > insightful > > > > > discussion after RTGAREA yesterday) is to recognize that DetNet > > is a > > > > > Controlled Environment, to which different rules apply than the > > > > > Internet and networks in general. For the definition of > > Controlled > > > > > Environment, see Section 3.6 of RFC 8085 > > > > > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8085#section-3.6). For now, > > please > > > > > ignore the material in that section on safety, robustness and > > > > > corruption, as inapplicable to this discussion. FWIW, that > > material > > > > > was motivated by the incessant attempts to optimize out UDP > > checksums > > > > > without serious consideration of the resulting packet corruption > > risks > > > > > and the potential consequences thereof. Viewing DetNet as a > > Controlled > > > > > Environment, this discussion is then primarily about what to > > require/do > > > > > at the boundary between the DetNet Controlled Environment and > > other > > > > > networks. I've been there, done that for other Controlled > > Environments > > > > > ... and have the scars ... from the worked examples in RFC 7510 > > > > > (MPLS/UDP) and RFC 8086's TMCE (Traffic Management Controlled > > > > > Environment) applicability scenario for GRE/UDP. Those two RFCs > > may be > > > > > helpful background reading. > > > > > > > > > > The good news here is that we are not as far from agreeing on a > > > > > solution as might appear from the length of this discussion. > > Going > > > > > back to a couple of chunks of text that Janos proposed earlier: > > > > > > > > > > NEW: > > > > > This document provides the overall Architecture for > > Deterministic > > > > > Networking (DetNet), which provides a capability for the > > delivery > > > > > of > > > > > data flows with extremely low packet loss rates and bounded > > end- > > > > > to- > > > > > end delivery latency within a network domain. DetNet is for > > > > > networks > > > > > that are under a single administrative control or within a > > closed > > > > > group > > > > > of administrative control; these include campus-wide > > networks and > > > > > private WANs. DetNet is not for large groups of domains > > such as > > > > > the > > > > > Internet. > > > > > > > > > > That reads to me as a clear statement that a DetNet network is a > > > > > Controlled Environment, so I would hope that we're in agreement > > on > > > > > that. > > > > > > > > > > NEW: > > > > > Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of > > possible > > > > > failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet > > network > > > > > to > > > > > detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong > > interface, or > > > > > at > > > > > the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, > > filters and > > > > > policers can take action to discard offending packets or > > flows, > > > > > or > > > > > trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or > > shutting down > > > > > the offending interface. > > > > > > > > > > That proposed text actually contains two circuit breakers, > > "shutting > > > > > down the offending DetNet flow" or "shutting down the offending > > > > > interface." So far, so good, but what's missing is text on > > deployment > > > > > requirements of the mechanisms described in that text, > > particularly at > > > > > the edges of DetNet networks. > > > > > > > > Yep, strict deployment requirements are needed. > > > > > > > > > Text that requires deployment of "filters and policers ... [that] > > > > > discard offending [DetNet] packets and flows" at the boundaries > > between > > > > > DetNet and non-DetNet networks would go a long way towards > > resolving > > > > > this discussion. I would suggest expanding "offending" into text > > that > > > > > includes all unauthorized DetNet traffic and all unexpected > > DetNet > > > > > traffic. Once that's done, the "circuit breaker" discussion > > becomes > > > > > more tractable, as the discarding of all DetNet traffic that > > would > > > > > otherwise escape the DetNet network reduces the "circuit breaker" > > > > > discussion to the existing DetNet material measures that need to > > be > > > > > taken inside a DetNet network to protect delivery of DetNet > > service. > > > > > > > > As already mentioned, it is possible that some solutions don't need > > any "circuit breaker" as they achieve sufficient robustness by some > > other means. I only ask for text that explains how to avoid harm from > > non-DetNet networks, not for a specific solution. > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, --David > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Scharf, Michael [mailto:Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de] > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 1:12 PM > > > > > > To: Lou Berger; Black, David; 'Jnos Farkas' > > > > > > Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > > architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Tsv-art] [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of > > draft- > > > > > ietf-detnet- > > > > > > architecture-08 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > > > > > Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests > > for > > > > > sensitive > > > > > > information. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Inline > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: Tsv-art [mailto:tsv-art-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > > Lou > > > > > Berger > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 8:45 AM > > > > > > > To: Black, David; Scharf, Michael; 'Jnos Farkas' > > > > > > > Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > > > > architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of > > draft- > > > > > ietf- > > > > > > > detnet-architecture-08 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See below for in-line responses > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/5/2018 12:21 AM, Black, David wrote: > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on > > > > > network > > > > > > > robustness > > > > > > > >>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For > > > > > instance, > > > > > > > >>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet > > > > > > > replication could > > > > > > > >>> severely and permanently congest a network and cause > > harm. > > > > > > > > [... snip ...] > > > > > > > >> NEW: > > > > > > > >> Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of > > > > > possible > > > > > > > >> failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet > > > > > network to > > > > > > > >> detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong > > interface, or > > > > > at > > > > > > > >> the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, > > filters and > > > > > > > >> policers can take action to discard offending packets or > > flows, > > > > > or > > > > > > > >> trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or > > shutting > > > > > down > > > > > > > >> the offending interface. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> [ms] That does not address my concern. As I wrote already, > > I > > > > > believe > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > >> document has to discuss the applicability of circuit > > breakers > > > > > > > according to RFC > > > > > > > >> 8084. > > > > > > > > I concur with Michael's implied concern that the "should" > > in the > > > > > NEW > > > > > > > text > > > > > > > > is woefully inadequate. The provisions to prevent escaped > > non- > > > > > > > elastic traffic > > > > > > > > from causing damage elsewhere need to be mandatory > > particularly > > > > > if > > > > > > > DetNet > > > > > > > > and non-DetNet networks are interconnected. The above > > > > > > > > text on filters doesn't appear to cover escape from the > > DetNet > > > > > > > network, > > > > > > > > and needs to do so. Deployment of filters at DetNet nodes > > that > > > > > drop > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > DetNet traffic that tries to escape, and that drop all > > > > > misdirected > > > > > > > DetNet > > > > > > > > traffic should address most of this problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once that is done, I think a discussion of circuit breakers > > is > > > > > > > needed, in the > > > > > > > > form of Detnet service mechanisms that can shut down (cease > > > > > > > transmission > > > > > > > > of) a flow that is being sent entirely into the bit-bucket > > by a > > > > > > > downstream filter, > > > > > > > > due to misconfiguration, failure, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we have a bit of a disconnect of what DetNet service > > > > > delivers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DetNet does not itself impact any Transport protocol (e.g., > > UDP, > > > > > TCP) > > > > > > > so itself does not *produce* elastic or non-elastic traffic. > > > > > > > > > > > > First, the question whether DetNet *produces* elastic or non- > > elastic > > > > > traffic does > > > > > > not matter for the applicability of circuit breakers. Section 3 > > of > > > > > RFC 8084 states: > > > > > > > > > > > > CBs are RECOMMENDED for IETF protocols and tunnels that > > carry non- > > > > > > congestion-controlled Internet flows and for traffic > > aggregates. > > > > > > This includes traffic sent using a network tunnel. > > Designers of > > > > > > other protocols and tunnel encapsulations also ought to > > consider > > > > > the > > > > > > use of these techniques as a last resort to protect traffic > > that > > > > > > shares the network path being used. > > > > > > > > > > > > Section 3.2.1.1 of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-09 explains > > > > > explicitly that > > > > > > DetNet can carry non-congestion-controlled traffic: > > > > > > > > > > > > Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled, i.e., its > > > > > > transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion > > > > > > notification. > > > > > > > > > > > > So, clearly the condition of carrying non-congestion-controlled > > flows > > > > > or traffic > > > > > > aggregates applies to the DetNet architecture. And, as a > > result, the > > > > > > RECOMMENDED in RFC 8084 is in principle applicable to DetNet. > > Also, > > > > > note that > > > > > > the RECOMMENDED in RFC 8084 is not limited to tunnels. > > > > > > > > > > > > As pointed out by David, the key question is whether, and how, > > the > > > > > DetNet > > > > > > architecture prevents that non-congestion controlled traffic > > escapes > > > > > from a > > > > > > controlled environment into the Internet. As also explained in > > RFC > > > > > 8084, this > > > > > > question in particular matters for failure scenarios. > > > > > > > > > > > > As TSV-ART reviewer, I insist in a discussion of this problem > > in > > > > > draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > > > architecture. And I believe that a reference to RFC 8084 is > > needed in > > > > > draft-ietf- > > > > > > detnet-architecture. > > > > > > > > > > > > Note that the wording in RFC 8084 is RECOMMENDED and not MUST, > > i.e., > > > > > it is > > > > > > possible that circuit breakers may not be needed for certain > > > > > solutions. As an > > > > > > example, MPLS traffic may not easily escape from a managed MPLS > > > > > network. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second, in my TSV-ART review I have explicitly mentioned the > > DetNet > > > > > Packet > > > > > > Replication Function (PRF). Replicating non-elastic traffic may > > > > > create additional > > > > > > challenges if the replicated packets can somehow escape into > > the > > > > > Internet, e.g., > > > > > > in failure cases. For instance, as far as I understand draft- > > ietf- > > > > > detnet- > > > > > > architecture, I assume the PRF can replicate non-congestion- > > > > > controlled traffic > > > > > > and forward it along different paths. If one of these paths > > escapes > > > > > to the > > > > > > Internet, to the Internet the PRF could basically be a producer > > of > > > > > non-congestion > > > > > > controlled traffic, and that traffic could cause significant > > harm in > > > > > the Internet. > > > > > > Also, note that in that case it may not necessarily help if the > > > > > traffic carried by > > > > > > DetNet is elastic, e.g., if DetNet carries TCP traffic. For > > instance, > > > > > if other paths > > > > > > used by the PRF within the DetNet domain would deliver all > > packets, > > > > > the > > > > > > congestion control in TCP would not never be triggered as each > > packet > > > > > gets > > > > > > indeed delivered over one of the paths. So, an unelastic > > traffic > > > > > stream would > > > > > > escale into the Internet and never back off. Unless I miss > > something, > > > > > DetNet > > > > > > needs counter-means to prevent this sort of issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe draft-ietf-detnet-architecture > > needs a > > > > > dedicated > > > > > > discussion whether the PRF can cause harm and, if so, how to > > avoid > > > > > such harm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > DetNet operates at Layer 3 and basically provides detnet > > flows with > > > > > a > > > > > > > service equivalent to IntServ's Guaranteed Quality of > > Service. As > > > > > > > such, > > > > > > > DetNet flows basically operate as if the network is > > uncongested. > > > > > > > > > > > > RFC 8084 exactly addresses that case. The question is not the > > normal > > > > > operation > > > > > > of the network, but abnormal cases. > > > > > > > > > > > > > WRT escaped traffic, as I mentioned in today's session, I > > really > > > > > think > > > > > > > this is no difference between escaped DetNet traffic and > > traffic > > > > > > > delivered over an uncongested network to a peer (congested or > > > > > > > uncongested) network. > > > > > > > > > > > > That comes down to how the DetNet network deals with abnormal > > > > > situations at > > > > > > the edges, e.g., for the problems mentioned in RFC 8084: > > > > > > > > > > > > o anomalous traffic that exceeds the provisioned capacity > > (or > > > > > whose > > > > > > traffic characteristics exceed the threshold configured > > for the > > > > > > CB); > > > > > > > > > > > > o traffic generated by an application at a time when the > > > > > provisioned > > > > > > network capacity is being utilized for other purposes; > > > > > > > > > > > > o routing changes that cause additional traffic to start > > using > > > > > the > > > > > > path monitored by the CB; > > > > > > > > > > > > o misconfiguration of a service/network device where the > > capacity > > > > > > available is insufficient to support the current traffic > > > > > > aggregate; > > > > > > > > > > > > o misconfiguration of an admission controller or traffic > > policer > > > > > > that allows more traffic than expected across the path > > > > > monitored > > > > > > by the CB. > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the last point, misconfiguration of > > filters/policies is > > > > > one of the > > > > > > challenges to look at. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on all this, I'm not sure how or why a discussion of > > circuit > > > > > > > breakers is needed. > > > > > > > > > > > > RFC 8084 represents IETF community consensus. And in my reading > > the > > > > > DetNet > > > > > > architecture falls into the type of solutions discussed in RFC > > 8084. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, --David > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > >> From: Tsv-art [mailto:tsv-art-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > > Of > > > > > Scharf, > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > >> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:44 PM > > > > > > > >> To: 'Jnos Farkas' > > > > > > > >> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; DetNet WG; draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > > > > architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft- > > ietf- > > > > > detnet- > > > > > > > architecture-08 > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > > > > > > >> Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or > > requests for > > > > > > > sensitive > > > > > > > >> information. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Hi Janos, > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Thanks for the reply. My comments are inline [ms]. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> I have omitted all proposed changes that work for me. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Michael > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > >> From: Jnos Farkas > > > > > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 10:56 AM > > > > > > > >> To: Scharf, Michael > > > > > > > >> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > > architecture.all@ietf.org; > > > > > > > DetNet WG > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Subject: Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > > > > architecture-08 > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Hi Michael, > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Thank you very much for the thorough review and good > > comments! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Please find below in-line responses and how we plan to > > update > > > > > the > > > > > > > draft to > > > > > > > >> resolve your comments. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Best regards, > > > > > > > >> Janos > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> On 9/29/2018 12:24 AM, Michael Scharf wrote: > > > > > > > >>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf > > > > > > > >>> Review result: Ready with Issues > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" > > > > > > > >>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall > > > > > framework > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > >>> Deterministic Networking. > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has > > issues as > > > > > > > >>> detailed below. > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> Michael > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> Major issues: > > > > > > > >> [...] > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> DetNet > > > > > > > >>> basically requires support in (almost) all network > > devices > > > > > > > >>> transporting DetNet traffic. That assumption should be > > > > > explicitly > > > > > > > >>> spelt out early in the document, e.g., in the > > introduction. > > > > > > > >> Actually, some form of DetNet support is required from > > each node > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > >> transports DetNet traffic. For instance, DetNet flows have > > to be > > > > > > > recognized in > > > > > > > >> order not to spoil their QoS at the minimum. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> [ms] I look for an clear explanation in the architecture > > > > > document of > > > > > > > what "some > > > > > > > >> form of DetNet support" exactly means. For instance, is > > standard > > > > > > > MPLS TE > > > > > > > >> without any DetNet support good enough for an LSR on the > > IP/MPLS > > > > > > > path used > > > > > > > >> by DetNet traffic, or not? As an example, when I read the > > > > > following > > > > > > > paragraph in > > > > > > > >> draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-mpls-01 ... > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Transit nodes are normal MPLS Label Switching Routers > > > > > (LSRs). > > > > > > > They > > > > > > > >> are generally unaware of the special requirements of > > DetNet > > > > > > > flows, > > > > > > > >> although they need to provide traffic engineering > > services > > > > > and > > > > > > > proper > > > > > > > >> QoS to the LSPs associated with DetNet flows to > > enhance the > > > > > > > prospect > > > > > > > >> of the LSPs meeting the DetNet service requirements. > > Some > > > > > > > >> implementations of transit nodes may be DetNet aware, > > but > > > > > such > > > > > > > nodes > > > > > > > >> just support the DetNet transport layer. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> ... I could maybe assume that actually there can be > > "transit > > > > > nodes" > > > > > > > that do not > > > > > > > >> require *any* sort of DetNet support or DetNet awareness. > > Is > > > > > that > > > > > > > correct? I > > > > > > > >> think the architecture document has to be clear on such > > > > > fundamental > > > > > > > questions. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> The Introduction could be extended to clarify, e.g., the > > third > > > > > > > paragraph: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> OLD: > > > > > > > >> A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. > > That > > > > > is, > > > > > > > the presence of > > > > > > > >> DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the > > > > > benefits > > > > > > > offered > > > > > > > >> DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, prevent > > > > > existing > > > > > > > QoS > > > > > > > >> mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, subject to > > the > > > > > > > bandwidth > > > > > > > >> required for the DetNet flows. A single source-destination > > pair > > > > > can > > > > > > > trade both > > > > > > > >> DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End systems and applications > > need > > > > > not > > > > > > > >> instantiate special interfaces for DetNet flows. Networks > > are > > > > > not > > > > > > > restricted to > > > > > > > >> certain topologies; connectivity is not restricted. Any > > > > > application > > > > > > > that generates > > > > > > > >> a data flow that can be usefully characterized as having a > > > > > maximum > > > > > > > bandwidth > > > > > > > >> should be able to take advantage of DetNet, as long as the > > > > > necessary > > > > > > > resources > > > > > > > >> can be reserved. Reservations can be made by the > > application > > > > > itself, > > > > > > > via network > > > > > > > >> management, by an application???s controller, or by other > > means, > > > > > e.g., > > > > > > > a dynamic > > > > > > > >> control plane (e.g., [RFC2205]). > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> NEW: > > > > > > > >> A goal of DetNet is a converged network in all respects. > > That > > > > > is, > > > > > > > the presence of > > > > > > > >> DetNet flows does not preclude non-DetNet flows, and the > > > > > benefits > > > > > > > offered > > > > > > > >> DetNet flows should not, except in extreme cases, prevent > > > > > existing > > > > > > > QoS > > > > > > > >> mechanisms from operating in a normal fashion, subject to > > the > > > > > > > bandwidth > > > > > > > >> required for the DetNet flows. A single source-destination > > pair > > > > > can > > > > > > > trade both > > > > > > > >> DetNet and non-DetNet flows. End systems and applications > > need > > > > > not > > > > > > > >> instantiate special interfaces for DetNet flows. Networks > > are > > > > > not > > > > > > > restricted to > > > > > > > >> certain topologies; connectivity is not restricted. Any > > > > > application > > > > > > > that generates > > > > > > > >> a data flow that can be usefully characterized as having a > > > > > maximum > > > > > > > bandwidth > > > > > > > >> should be able to take advantage of DetNet, as long as the > > > > > necessary > > > > > > > resources > > > > > > > >> can be reserved. Reservations can be made by the > > application > > > > > itself, > > > > > > > via network > > > > > > > >> management, by an application???s controller, or by other > > means, > > > > > e.g., > > > > > > > a dynamic > > > > > > > >> control plane (e.g., [RFC2205]). Network nodes supporting > > DetNet > > > > > > > flows have to > > > > > > > >> implement some of the DetNet capabilities (not necessarily > > all) > > > > > in > > > > > > > order to treat > > > > > > > >> DetNet flows such that their QoS requirements are met. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> [ms] To me, the last sentence is not clear. Does "some of > > the > > > > > DetNet > > > > > > > capabilities > > > > > > > >> (not necessarily all)" include e.g. vanilla traffic > > engineering? > > > > > For > > > > > > > instance, if a > > > > > > > >> network node can ensure that the QoS requirements are met > > by > > > > > > > leveraging > > > > > > > >> existing standardized TE without any additional DetNet > > > > > awareness, is > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > >> enough for deploying DetNet? Or does this node have to > > implement > > > > > > > additional > > > > > > > >> DetNet-specific functionality? Specifically, please > > explain if > > > > > an > > > > > > > existing DetNet- > > > > > > > >> unaware router on the path taken by DetNet traffic can be > > used > > > > > to > > > > > > > forward > > > > > > > >> DetNet traffic, or if it is mandatory that any router > > forwarding > > > > > > > DetNet traffic > > > > > > > >> indeed implements new capabilities specific to DetNet. In > > the > > > > > latter > > > > > > > case, I think > > > > > > > >> the document would need to discuss incremental deployment > > > > > strategies > > > > > > > as well. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on > > > > > network > > > > > > > robustness > > > > > > > >>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For > > > > > instance, > > > > > > > >>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet > > > > > > > replication could > > > > > > > >>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. > > How > > > > > does > > > > > > > the DetNet > > > > > > > >>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully > > operational e.g. > > > > > if > > > > > > > the topology > > > > > > > >>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this > > can be > > > > > > > solved by > > > > > > > >>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why > > are > > > > > > > corresponding > > > > > > > >>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that > > > > > filters > > > > > > > and policers > > > > > > > >>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still > > assumes > > > > > > > consistently > > > > > > > >>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And > > > > > Section > > > > > > > 3.3.2 is > > > > > > > >>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible > > failures" > > > > > > > without stating > > > > > > > >>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further > > > > > > > solutions, such as > > > > > > > >>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not > > > > > discussed? > > > > > > > >> Security issues and considerations are addressed by the > > DetNet > > > > > > > Security > > > > > > > >> draft: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet- > > > > > security. > > > > > > > >> Reference to the DetNet Security draft will be added. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> There will be a document dedicated to Operations, > > Administration > > > > > and > > > > > > > >> Maintenance (OAM), which will address operational, > > > > > misconfiguration, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > >> failure detection issues. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> The topology changes have to be solved by the control > > plane, > > > > > either > > > > > > > >> centralized or distributed. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> The filters and policers described in Section 3.3.2 also > > provide > > > > > > > >> robustness by eliminating/mitigating traffic coming from > > > > > > > malfunctioning > > > > > > > >> devices. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> RFC2475 is recommended for traffic policing functions to > > > > > increase > > > > > > > >> robustness. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> The text in Section 3.3.2 could be made clearer, e.g., by > > > > > updating > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > >> first paragraph to: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> OLD: > > > > > > > >> One key to building robust real-time systems is to reduce > > the > > > > > > > >> infinite variety of possible failures to a number that can > > be > > > > > > > >> analyzed with reasonable confidence. DetNet aids in the > > process > > > > > by > > > > > > > >> allowing for filters and policers to detect DetNet packets > > > > > received > > > > > > > >> on the wrong interface, or at the wrong time, or in too > > great a > > > > > > > >> volume, and to then take actions such as discarding the > > > > > offending > > > > > > > >> packet, shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or > > shutting > > > > > down > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > >> offending interface. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> NEW: > > > > > > > >> Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of > > > > > possible > > > > > > > >> failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet > > > > > network to > > > > > > > >> detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong > > interface, or > > > > > at > > > > > > > >> the wrong time, or in too great volume. Furthermore, > > filters and > > > > > > > >> policers can take action to discard offending packets or > > flows, > > > > > or > > > > > > > >> trigger shutting down the offending DetNet flow, or > > shutting > > > > > down > > > > > > > >> the offending interface. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> [ms] That does not address my concern. As I wrote already, > > I > > > > > believe > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > >> document has to discuss the applicability of circuit > > breakers > > > > > > > according to RFC > > > > > > > >> 8084. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of > > > > > failures > > > > > > > to the QoS of > > > > > > > >>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to > > protect > > > > > non- > > > > > > > DetNet parts > > > > > > > >>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. > > > > > Solutions > > > > > > > to this > > > > > > > >>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet > > traffic > > > > > (e.g., > > > > > > > in case of > > > > > > > >>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not > > discussed > > > > > at > > > > > > > all in the document? > > > > > > > >> Actually the regulation of DetNet traffic by polices and > > filters > > > > > > > >> protects both other DetNet traffic and non-DetNet traffic. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Section 3.3.1 could be extended to make it clear, e.g., by > > > > > extending > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > >> last paragraph: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> OLD: > > > > > > > >> Ideally, the net effect of the presence of DetNet flows in > > a > > > > > network > > > > > > > >> on the non-DetNet packets is primarily a reduction in the > > > > > available > > > > > > > >> bandwidth. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> NEW: > > > > > > > >> Traffic policing functions (e.g. [RFC2475]) are used to > > avoid > > > > > the > > > > > > > >> starvation of non-DetNet traffic. Thus, the net effect of > > the > > > > > > > presence > > > > > > > >> of DetNet flows in a network on non-DetNet flows is > > primarily a > > > > > > > >> reduction in the available bandwidth. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> [ms] I believe a stronger wording is needed, e.g. along > > the > > > > > lines of > > > > > > > "a DetNet > > > > > > > >> deployment must avoid starvation of non-DetNet traffic > > ...". > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> [...] > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an > > informational RFC > > > > > on > > > > > > > IRTF stream, > > > > > > > >>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there > > (e.g., > > > > > > > "planes"). This is > > > > > > > >>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should > > > > > probably > > > > > > > refer to > > > > > > > >>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC > > 7491, > > > > > > > albeit there is > > > > > > > >>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, > > > > > Section > > > > > > > 4.4 is by and > > > > > > > >>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not > > specific > > > > > to > > > > > > > DetNet. > > > > > > > >>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the > > concepts > > > > > > > introduced in > > > > > > > >>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet > > terminology or > > > > > > > discuss > > > > > > > >>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions > > explicitly > > > > > at > > > > > > > the end that > > > > > > > >>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet > > > > > > > architecture. It is not > > > > > > > >>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section > > 4.4 > > > > > could > > > > > > > be removed > > > > > > > >>> from the document without impacting the rest of the > > document. > > > > > > > >> The document should point out to traffic engineering and > > > > > centralized > > > > > > > >> control plane aspects, so it is better to keep Section > > 4.4. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> RFC 7426 provides the full picture of SDN architecture, > > which > > > > > needs > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > >> be referred from the DetNet architecture. No other RFC > > provides > > > > > such > > > > > > > >> detailed picture. Therefore, we need to keep the reference > > to > > > > > RFC > > > > > > > 7426, > > > > > > > >> which is an informative reference. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> [ms] I'll leave that up to the IESG to decide whether an > > IETF > > > > > > > proposed standard > > > > > > > >> should build an architecture based on research work > > instead of, > > > > > say, > > > > > > > documents > > > > > > > >> with IETF consensus. As a side note, I believe the > > understanding > > > > > in > > > > > > > industry what > > > > > > > >> "SDN architecture" really means and how it is implemented > > may > > > > > have > > > > > > > evolved > > > > > > > >> since publication of IRTF RFC 7426, which was published in > > Jan. > > > > > > > 2015. For > > > > > > > >> instance, IRTF RFC 7426 does not discuss the implications > > of > > > > > segment > > > > > > > routing, > > > > > > > >> BGP-LS, and other recent IETF techniques. And, based on > > what I > > > > > read > > > > > > > in the > > > > > > > >> DetNet architecture, I believe DetNet could actually be > > > > > implemented > > > > > > > without > > > > > > > >> any "SDN architecture", e.g. by distributed traffic > > engineering. > > > > > As > > > > > > > a result, I don't > > > > > > > >> even understand the need to discuss "SDN". > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> [ms] For the record: As TSV-ART reviewer, I question > > whether > > > > > IRTF > > > > > > > RFC 7426 is > > > > > > > >> indeed an appropriate reference, I have doubts that IRTF > > RFC > > > > > 7426 is > > > > > > > really up- > > > > > > > >> to-date, and I am concerned about the content quality of > > section > > > > > > > 4.4, e.g., > > > > > > > >> regarding the lack of alignment with the rest of the > > document. > > > > > The > > > > > > > IESG will > > > > > > > >> certainly have a better understanding that than me how to > > deal > > > > > with > > > > > > > such topics. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> The related work in TEAS is already referred to. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> [...] > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> Minor issues: > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in > > the > > > > > IETF, > > > > > > > e.g. > > > > > > > >>> originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. > > > > > "transport > > > > > > > network" is > > > > > > > >>> used in the IETF for different technologies in different > > areas, > > > > > I > > > > > > > think the > > > > > > > >>> term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer > > to > > > > > > > transport > > > > > > > >>> protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find > > the > > > > > term > > > > > > > "DetNet > > > > > > > >>> transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion > > is > > > > > easy to > > > > > > > see e.g. > > > > > > > >>> in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as > > per > > > > > RFC > > > > > > > 1122) sits > > > > > > > >>> on top of "transport". > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> Based on the document it also may be > > solution/implementation > > > > > > > specific > > > > > > > >> whether > > > > > > > >>> the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate > > protocol > > > > > layer > > > > > > > compared > > > > > > > >>> to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me > > why > > > > > the > > > > > > > word > > > > > > > >>> "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination > > "transport > > > > > > > layer". > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport > > protocol") > > > > > > > should be > > > > > > > >>> used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with > > RFC > > > > > 1122. > > > > > > > But this is > > > > > > > >>> probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. > > > > > > > >> "transport" is used here as in "packet transport networks" > > not > > > > > as > > > > > > > OSI L4 > > > > > > > >> transport. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> [ms] At the risk of stating the obvious: The relevant > > section of > > > > > RFC > > > > > > > 1122 defining > > > > > > > >> "transport layer" is entitled by "The Internet > > Architecture". > > > > > And, > > > > > > > according e.g. > > > > > > > >> to RFC 5921, "packet transport network" is a term defined > > by > > > > > ITU-T. > > > > > > > In an IETF > > > > > > > >> document, I believe IETF terminology should be used. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> I suggest to use the terms "DetNet transport sub-layer" > > and > > > > > "DetNet > > > > > > > >> service sub-layer" throughout the document, which would > > > > > hopefully > > > > > > > avoid > > > > > > > >> confusion. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> [ms] "DetNet transport sub-layer" somewhat solves my > > concern of > > > > > > > avoiding the > > > > > > > >> expression "transport layer". To really avoid confusion, I > > > > > believe > > > > > > > it would be > > > > > > > >> better to avoid the ambiguous term "transport" altogether. > > But > > > > > I > > > > > > > will be fine if > > > > > > > >> all DetNet documents consistently avoid the term > > "transport > > > > > layer". > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Michael > > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > >> Tsv-art mailing list > > > > > > > >> Tsv-art@ietf.org > > > > > > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > detnet mailing list > > > > > > > > detnet@ietf.org > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Tsv-art mailing list > > > > > > > Tsv-art@ietf.org > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > detnet mailing list > > > > detnet@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > detnet mailing list > > > detnet@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > -- > > --- > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Mon Nov 19 08:04:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D901286E7 for ; 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Mon, 19 Nov 2018 08:34:59 -0700 To: Michael Scharf Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org, draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 10:34:58 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.106.211 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gOlZj-000YL6-B0 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.106.211]:49512 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 8 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 16:04:06 -0000 Michael, I wanted to take a step back from the multiple discussions that were spawned by your review -- from a doc shepherd perspective, and see where we are.   I know that the authors have sent a -09 version that addresses some, but not all issues. From the exchanges I've seen, I think the key remaining issues are related to: (a) possibly introduction of congestion in the general internet if packets were somehow to escape a detnet domain.  The source of this congestion would be inelastic traffic using DetNet or due to congestion loss that is masked by PREOF. (b) The use of the term 'transport' in DetNet to refer to what is basically a Traffic Engineered sub-network layer, such as is provided with MPLS-TE or Optical Transport Networks. Do you have any other issues that that are critical to be addressed before this work moves forward?  If so which? Thank you, Lou On 9/28/2018 6:24 PM, Michael Scharf wrote: > Reviewer: Michael Scharf > Review result: Ready with Issues > > The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" > (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall framework for > Deterministic Networking. > > As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues as detailed below. > > Michael > > Major issues: > > * It seems that DetNet cannot easily be deployed in the Internet without > additional means. Thus, for a baseline document, one could expect some > explanation on the requirements of deploying DetNet in a network. DetNet > basically requires support in (almost) all network devices transporting DetNet > traffic. That assumption should be explicitly spelt out early in the document, > e.g., in the introduction. There also needs to be an explicit discussion of the > implications if not the whole network is aware of or supports DetNet. There is > some text in Section 4.2.2 and Section 4.3.3, but I believe additional explicit > discussion is needed at a prominant place. For instance, can use of DetNet do > harm to parts of a network not supporting DetNet? As a side note, when TCPM > published RFC 8257, the following disclaimer was added: "DCTCP, as described in > this specification, is applicable to deployments in controlled environments > like data centers, but it must not be deployed over the public Internet without > additional measures." I wonder if a similar disclaimer is needed for DetNet. If > there is an implicit assumption that DetNet will be used in homogenous > environments with mostly DetNet-aware devices within the same organization, > such an assumption should be made explicit. > > * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network robustness > and safety; this probably also relates to security. For instance, > misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet replication could > severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How does the DetNet > architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. if the topology > changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be solved by > implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are corresponding > requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that filters and policers > can help, and that may be true, but that probably still assumes consistently > and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And Section 3.3.2 is > vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" without stating > any requirements or recommendations. There may be further solutions, such as > circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not discussed? > > * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of failures to the QoS of > DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to protect non-DetNet parts > of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. Solutions to this > probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic (e.g., in case of > topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not discussed at all in the > document? > > * Regarding security, an architecture like DetNet probably requires that only > authenticated and authorized end systems have access to the data plane. The > security considerations only briefly mention the control aspect ("the > authentication and authorization of the controlling systems"). > > * For an architecture document, the lack of clarity and consistency regarding > terminology is concerning. This specifically applies to the case of incomplete > networks (as per Section 4.2.2 and 4.3.3) that include "DetNet-unaware nodes". > The document introduces terms such as "DetNet intermediate nodes" but then > repeatedly uses generic terms such as "node" or "hop" that may include > DetNet-unaware nodes. For instance, for incomplete networks, a sentence such as > "The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS assurances is to reduce, or > even completely eliminate, congestion within a node as a cause of packet loss" > seems to only apply to "DetNet transit nodes" but not "DetNet-unaware nodes". > Similar ambiguity exist for other use of the terms "hop" and "node", which may > or may not include DetNet-unaware nodes. It is unclear why the document does > not consistently use the terminology introduced in Section 2.1 in all sections > and clearly distinguishes cases with and without DetNet support. > > * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational RFC on IRTF stream, > and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., "planes"). This is > very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should probably refer to > documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC 7491, albeit there is > other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, Section 4.4 is by and > large decoupled from the rest of the document and not specific to DetNet. > Neither do other sections of the document refer to the concepts introduced in > Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology or discuss > applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly at the end that > it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet architecture. It is not > at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 could be removed > from the document without impacting the rest of the document. > > Minor issues: > > * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" > > The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in the IETF, e.g. > originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. "transport network" is > used in the IETF for different technologies in different areas, I think the > term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer to transport > protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find the term "DetNet > transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion is easy to see e.g. > in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as per RFC 1122) sits > on top of "transport". > > Based on the document it also may be solution/implementation specific whether > the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate protocol layer compared > to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me why the word > "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination "transport layer". > > To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport protocol") should be > used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with RFC 1122. But this is > probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. > > * Page 9 > > A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation and/or > scheduling, > > This is just one of several examples for inconsistent use of terminology. > What is a "DetNet node"? That term is not introduced in Section 2.1 > > * Page 14 > > A DetNet network supports the dedication of a high proportion (e.g. > 75%) of the network bandwidth to DetNet flows. > > The 75% value is not reasoned. What prevents using 99% of the bandwidth for > DetNet traffic? > > * Page 15: Figure 2 > > If the term "transport layer" cannot be avoided, the labels in this figure > should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport layer". > > * Page 18: Figure 4 > > As already mentioned earlier, Figure 4 is confusing. UDP is a transport > protocol. If the term "transport" cannot be avoided, the labels in this > figure should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport". > > * Page 23 > > If the source transmits less data than this limit > allows, the unused resource such as link bandwidth can be made > available by the system to non-DetNet packets. > > Could there be additional requirements on the use of unused resources by > non-DetNet packets, e.g., regarding preemption? I am just wondering... If > that was possible, a statement like "... can be made available by the system > to non-DetNet packets as long as all guarantees are fulfilled" would be on > the safe side, no? > > * Page 27: > > DetNet achieves congestion protection and bounded delivery latency by > reserving bandwidth and buffer resources at every hop along the path > of the DetNet flow. > > Why does this sentence use the word "hop"? As far as I understand, in DetNet > bandwidth and buffer resources are reserved in each DetNet intermediate node. > If there were hops over IP routers not being DetNet intermediate nodes, no > resources would be reserved there. As per Section 4.3.3, it is possible to > deploy DetNet this way. And obviously there can be resource bottlenecks below > IP, on devices that are not routers... So does "hop" here refer to IP router > hops or also to devices not processing IP (or IP/MPLS)? > > * Page 27: > > Standard queuing and transmission selection algorithms allow a > central controller to compute the latency contribution of each > transit node to the end-to-end latency, ... > > The text does not explain why a _central_ controller is needed for this > computation. Why would a distributed control plane not be able to realize > this computation. Isn't this implementation-specific? > > * Page 32 > > To somebody who is not deeply familiar with DetNet, it is impossible to parse > the description of the examples in Section 4.7.3. For instance, "VID + > multicast MAC address" is not introduced. I think this example must be > expaned with additional context and explanation to be useful to readers. > > * Page 34 > > There are three classes of information that a central controller or > distributed control plane needs to know that can only be obtained > from the end systems and/or nodes in the network. > > Wouldn't it be sufficient to state "Provisioning of DetNet requires knowledge > about ...". Does it matter in this context whether the provisioning is done > by a central controller or a distributed control plane? For instance, could > the same paragraph also apply to a network that uses _multiple_ central > controllers, or hybrid combinations of central controllers and distributed > control planes? In general, an architecture document should be agnostic to > implementation aspects unless there is a specific need. In this specific > case, I fail to see a need to discuss the realization of the control plane of > a network. > > Editorial nits: > > * Page 9: > > The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 provide the > necessary regulation of transmissions by an end system or > intermediate node to provide congestion protection. The allocation > of the bandwidth and buffers for a DetNet flow requires provisioning > A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation and/or > scheduling, that might otherwise be over-subscribed and trigger the > rejection of a reservation. > > Probably a full stop is missing after "provisioning". > > * Page 11: "... along separate (disjoint non-SRLG) paths ..." > > I find this confusing. I would understand e.g. "along separate > (SRLG-disjoint) paths". > > * Page 34: > > When using a peer- > to-peer control plane, some of this information may be required by a > system's neighbors in the network. > > Would "acquired" be a better term? > > * Page 34: > > o The identity of the system's neighbors, and the characteristics of > the link(s) between the systems, including the length (in > nanoseconds) of the link(s). > > "Latency" or "delay" would probably be a better terms if the value is > measured in nanoseconds. > > * Page 35: > > DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does not > directly raise any new privacy considerations. > > Broken sentence > > * Please expand acronyms on first use (e.g., OTN) > > From nobody Mon Nov 19 14:15:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1636E1252B7; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 14:15:31 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rznt8102.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de ([fe80::f977:d5e6:6b09:56ac%10]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 23:15:23 +0100 From: "Scharf, Michael" To: Lou Berger CC: "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 Thread-Index: AQHUgB1y5LtWcAVh50yat0D4Ke6LC6VXhkBA Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 22:15:22 +0000 Message-ID: <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [134.108.29.249] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 22:15:31 -0000 TG91LA0KDQo+IC0tIA0KPiBJIHdhbnRlZCB0byB0YWtlIGEgc3RlcCBiYWNrIGZyb20gdGhlIG11 bHRpcGxlIGRpc2N1c3Npb25zIHRoYXQgd2VyZQ0KPiBzcGF3bmVkIGJ5IHlvdXIgcmV2aWV3IC0t IGZyb20gYSBkb2Mgc2hlcGhlcmQgcGVyc3BlY3RpdmUsIGFuZCBzZWUNCj4gd2hlcmUNCj4gd2Ug YXJlLsKgwqAgSSBrbm93IHRoYXQgdGhlIGF1dGhvcnMgaGF2ZSBzZW50IGEgLTA5IHZlcnNpb24g dGhhdA0KPiBhZGRyZXNzZXMNCj4gc29tZSwgYnV0IG5vdCBhbGwgaXNzdWVzLg0KPiANCj4gIEZy b20gdGhlIGV4Y2hhbmdlcyBJJ3ZlIHNlZW4sIEkgdGhpbmsgdGhlIGtleSByZW1haW5pbmcgaXNz dWVzIGFyZQ0KPiByZWxhdGVkIHRvOg0KPiANCj4gKGEpIHBvc3NpYmx5IGludHJvZHVjdGlvbiBv ZiBjb25nZXN0aW9uIGluIHRoZSBnZW5lcmFsIGludGVybmV0IGlmDQo+IHBhY2tldHMgd2VyZSBz b21laG93IHRvIGVzY2FwZSBhIGRldG5ldCBkb21haW4uwqAgVGhlIHNvdXJjZSBvZiB0aGlzDQo+ IGNvbmdlc3Rpb24gd291bGQgYmUgaW5lbGFzdGljIHRyYWZmaWMgdXNpbmcgRGV0TmV0IG9yIGR1 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([100.15.106.211]:46288 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gP4s3-001dqH-GH; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 05:11:11 -0700 To: "Scharf, Michael" Cc: "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 07:11:10 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.106.211 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gP4s3-001dqH-GH X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.106.211]:46288 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 8 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:23:45 -0000 Michael, I think we're getting somewhere and identifying where we have disconnects and what may (and what may not) need to change in the document.  My takeaways are: - The document needs a good 'scrub' of the congestion related references to ensure that the document only makes statements on what is actually done within a DetNet and the relationship with transport protocols that use detnet (which are in fact outside the scope of the DetNet WG).  I'll work with the authors and WG on this -- I see this change as important, but editorial in nature. - We have a perception issue with at least one member of the TSV area on the meaning and more importantly, implication, of the term "DetNet *Transport* sub-layer".  While I don't disagree that a good portion of the IETF thinks transport protocol (UDP/TCP) when they hear "transport" there are plenty others, particularly in the routing area, who understand that "transport" can refer to Transport Networks.  And Transport Network is a well understood general industry term. The IETF even has a bunch of RFCs that relate to Transport networks.  This said, I think it reasonable to go back to the DetNet WG and discuss changing the name of the "DetNet Transport sub-layer"  to avoid the word "transport".  -- BTW we made a parallel change in the TEAS WG when producing RFC8453. See below for detail response in-line. On 11/19/2018 5:15 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote: > Lou, > >> -- >> I wanted to take a step back from the multiple discussions that were >> spawned by your review -- from a doc shepherd perspective, and see >> where >> we are.   I know that the authors have sent a -09 version that >> addresses >> some, but not all issues. >> >> From the exchanges I've seen, I think the key remaining issues are >> related to: >> >> (a) possibly introduction of congestion in the general internet if >> packets were somehow to escape a detnet domain.  The source of this >> congestion would be inelastic traffic using DetNet or due to congestion >> loss that is masked by PREOF. > These are two major issues that need to be addressed. Note that it may not be sufficient just to add a section on operational and deployment considerations. Also the existing text in the document will need to get aligned to normative guidance on how to avoid a congestion collapse. > > In -09, one example would be Section 3.1. "Primary goals defining the DetNet QoS" > > Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along the path > of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. Congestion > protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, packet loss > due to output packet congestion within the network, but it can only > be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to a > maximum packet size and transmission rate. Note that congestion > protection provided via congestion detection and notification is > explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it serves a > different set of applications. > At least the last sentence would contradict a better discussion of congestion in the document. For instance, it could just be removed. In any case, the current wording in the last sentence is not correct, as the IETF term for what is described in the last sentence is "congestion control". > > Another example would be Section 3.2.1.1. "Eliminate congestion loss" > > The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS assurances is to > reduce, or even completely eliminate, congestion within a DetNet node > as a cause of packet loss. This can be achieved only by the > provision of sufficient buffer storage at each node through the > network to ensure that no packets are dropped due to a lack of buffer > storage. Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled, i.e., its > transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion > notification. > > This section IMHO has to include a discussion of what happens in the (not expected) case that packets get dropped or that ECN marks are received. It is understood that this would not happen in normal operation of a DetNet network, but I believe just considering the error-free operation of a DetNet network is not sufficient for this document. At least for the risk of traffic that may escape from a DetNet network is inherently not sufficient to assume that the DetNet network is always error-free. I think these are examples of text that needs to be cleanup up and to delineate what is done with a DetNet. > As a result, addressing my concerns will most likely require editing several parts of the document. > > In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review comment "It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network robustness and safety" I have no idea what you mean by safety here.  Can you elaborate. > covers more than just inelastic traffic that escapes from a DetNet network and masking of packet loss. Given that DetNet traffic may be extremely critical traffic, I really wonder why the document doesn't emphasize more the required robustness against failures *inside* the DetNet network as well as counter-measures. But this is something the WG needs to decide. As TSV-ART reviewer, I will be fine if the document clearly describes how the impact of failures will be isolated inside the DetNet network and will not put the general Internet at risk. I agree - I think, the document should be clear on it's scope and relationship to general internet usage. > >> (b) The use of the term 'transport' in DetNet to refer to what is >> basically a Traffic Engineered sub-network layer, such as is provided >> with MPLS-TE or Optical Transport Networks. > In the Internet architecture, the term 'transport' refers to Internet transport protocols. I doubt that the document can avoid discussing the implications of and interactions with Internet transport protocols such as UDP or TCP. As a result, I disagree that the document can use the term 'transport' to refer to traffic engineered sub-network layers. I think this is covered by my comment above. > From a TSV-ART point of view, the document can either only use the term "transport" for Internet transport protocols and use another term for sub-network layers (as handled in the *routing* area of the IETF), or the document has to clearly distinguish between the Internet transport layer and other uses of the term "transport" and explain the overlap. I believe the former would be less confusing, but I will leave it up to the TSV ADs to discuss terminology overlap in the IESG. As TSV-ART reviewer I insist that the document uses the terms "transport layer" and "transport protocol" only when referring to the Internet transport layer. I'm personally okay with a name change and even willing to push this discussion within the WG, but as said above, "Transport Network" is a generally understood industry term that is also used in RFCs -- so we'll have to see what where WG consensus ends up. > >> Do you have any other issues that that are critical to be addressed >> before this work moves forward? If so which? > Regarding Section 4.4 I have already deferred the discussion to the IESG. The TSV-ART review comment is that the IESG needs to carefully look at the concepts, terminology, and references in section 4.4. > > Regarding my other comments, I acknowledge that -09 is a step forward. But given the cross-dependencies e.g. regarding terminology and definitions, I will need to read the text completely once there is a proposal how to address my review. As noted in my review, I believe the document must use terminology clearly and consistently. As example, a statement in -09 such as "Network nodes supporting DetNet flows have to implement some of the DetNet capabilities (not necessarily all) in order to treat DetNet flows such that their QoS requirements are met" is IMHO too vague. But in such cases it depends whether there is precise normative guidance elsewhere. And this requires looking at the text as a whole. I think the next steps lie with me and the WG.  We'll let you know once there is a new version.  Of course, you can also contribute to the WG discussion on the topic. Thanks, Lou > > Best regards > > Michael > > > >> Thank you, >> >> Lou >> >> On 9/28/2018 6:24 PM, Michael Scharf wrote: >>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf >>> Review result: Ready with Issues >>> >>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" >>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall framework for >>> Deterministic Networking. >>> >>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues as >> detailed below. >>> Michael >>> >>> Major issues: >>> >>> * It seems that DetNet cannot easily be deployed in the Internet >> without >>> additional means. Thus, for a baseline document, one could expect >> some >>> explanation on the requirements of deploying DetNet in a network. >> DetNet >>> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices >> transporting DetNet >>> traffic. That assumption should be explicitly spelt out early in the >> document, >>> e.g., in the introduction. There also needs to be an explicit >> discussion of the >>> implications if not the whole network is aware of or supports DetNet. >> There is >>> some text in Section 4.2.2 and Section 4.3.3, but I believe >> additional explicit >>> discussion is needed at a prominant place. For instance, can use of >> DetNet do >>> harm to parts of a network not supporting DetNet? As a side note, >> when TCPM >>> published RFC 8257, the following disclaimer was added: "DCTCP, as >> described in >>> this specification, is applicable to deployments in controlled >> environments >>> like data centers, but it must not be deployed over the public >> Internet without >>> additional measures." I wonder if a similar disclaimer is needed for >> DetNet. If >>> there is an implicit assumption that DetNet will be used in >> homogenous >>> environments with mostly DetNet-aware devices within the same >> organization, >>> such an assumption should be made explicit. >>> >>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network >> robustness >>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For instance, >>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet replication >> could >>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How does the >> DetNet >>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. if >> the topology >>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be solved >> by >>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are >> corresponding >>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that filters and >> policers >>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still assumes >> consistently >>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And Section >> 3.3.2 is >>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" without >> stating >>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further solutions, >> such as >>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not discussed? >>> >>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of failures to >> the QoS of >>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to protect non- >> DetNet parts >>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. Solutions to >> this >>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic (e.g., in >> case of >>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not discussed at >> all in the >>> document? >>> >>> * Regarding security, an architecture like DetNet probably requires >> that only >>> authenticated and authorized end systems have access to the data >> plane. The >>> security considerations only briefly mention the control aspect ("the >>> authentication and authorization of the controlling systems"). >>> >>> * For an architecture document, the lack of clarity and consistency >> regarding >>> terminology is concerning. This specifically applies to the case of >> incomplete >>> networks (as per Section 4.2.2 and 4.3.3) that include "DetNet- >> unaware nodes". >>> The document introduces terms such as "DetNet intermediate nodes" but >> then >>> repeatedly uses generic terms such as "node" or "hop" that may >> include >>> DetNet-unaware nodes. For instance, for incomplete networks, a >> sentence such as >>> "The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS assurances is to >> reduce, or >>> even completely eliminate, congestion within a node as a cause of >> packet loss" >>> seems to only apply to "DetNet transit nodes" but not "DetNet-unaware >> nodes". >>> Similar ambiguity exist for other use of the terms "hop" and "node", >> which may >>> or may not include DetNet-unaware nodes. It is unclear why the >> document does >>> not consistently use the terminology introduced in Section 2.1 in all >> sections >>> and clearly distinguishes cases with and without DetNet support. >>> >>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational RFC on >> IRTF stream, >>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., "planes"). >> This is >>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should probably >> refer to >>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC 7491, albeit >> there is >>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, Section 4.4 >> is by and >>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not specific to >> DetNet. >>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the concepts >> introduced in >>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology or >> discuss >>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly at the >> end that >>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet architecture. >> It is not >>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 could >> be removed >>> from the document without impacting the rest of the document. >>> >>> Minor issues: >>> >>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" >>> >>> The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in the IETF, >> e.g. >>> originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. "transport >> network" is >>> used in the IETF for different technologies in different areas, I >> think the >>> term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer to >> transport >>> protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find the term >> "DetNet >>> transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion is easy >> to see e.g. >>> in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as per RFC >> 1122) sits >>> on top of "transport". >>> >>> Based on the document it also may be solution/implementation >> specific whether >>> the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate protocol layer >> compared >>> to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me why the >> word >>> "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination "transport >> layer". >>> To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport protocol") >> should be >>> used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with RFC 1122. >> But this is >>> probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. >>> >>> * Page 9 >>> >>> A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation >> and/or >>> scheduling, >>> >>> This is just one of several examples for inconsistent use of >> terminology. >>> What is a "DetNet node"? That term is not introduced in Section >> 2.1 >>> * Page 14 >>> >>> A DetNet network supports the dedication of a high proportion >> (e.g. >>> 75%) of the network bandwidth to DetNet flows. >>> >>> The 75% value is not reasoned. What prevents using 99% of the >> bandwidth for >>> DetNet traffic? >>> >>> * Page 15: Figure 2 >>> >>> If the term "transport layer" cannot be avoided, the labels in >> this figure >>> should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport layer". >>> >>> * Page 18: Figure 4 >>> >>> As already mentioned earlier, Figure 4 is confusing. UDP is a >> transport >>> protocol. If the term "transport" cannot be avoided, the labels in >> this >>> figure should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport". >>> >>> * Page 23 >>> >>> If the source transmits less data than this limit >>> allows, the unused resource such as link bandwidth can be made >>> available by the system to non-DetNet packets. >>> >>> Could there be additional requirements on the use of unused >> resources by >>> non-DetNet packets, e.g., regarding preemption? I am just >> wondering... If >>> that was possible, a statement like "... can be made available by >> the system >>> to non-DetNet packets as long as all guarantees are fulfilled" >> would be on >>> the safe side, no? >>> >>> * Page 27: >>> >>> DetNet achieves congestion protection and bounded delivery >> latency by >>> reserving bandwidth and buffer resources at every hop along the >> path >>> of the DetNet flow. >>> >>> Why does this sentence use the word "hop"? As far as I understand, >> in DetNet >>> bandwidth and buffer resources are reserved in each DetNet >> intermediate node. >>> If there were hops over IP routers not being DetNet intermediate >> nodes, no >>> resources would be reserved there. As per Section 4.3.3, it is >> possible to >>> deploy DetNet this way. And obviously there can be resource >> bottlenecks below >>> IP, on devices that are not routers... So does "hop" here refer to >> IP router >>> hops or also to devices not processing IP (or IP/MPLS)? >>> >>> * Page 27: >>> >>> Standard queuing and transmission selection algorithms allow a >>> central controller to compute the latency contribution of each >>> transit node to the end-to-end latency, ... >>> >>> The text does not explain why a _central_ controller is needed for >> this >>> computation. Why would a distributed control plane not be able to >> realize >>> this computation. Isn't this implementation-specific? >>> >>> * Page 32 >>> >>> To somebody who is not deeply familiar with DetNet, it is >> impossible to parse >>> the description of the examples in Section 4.7.3. For instance, >> "VID + >>> multicast MAC address" is not introduced. I think this example >> must be >>> expaned with additional context and explanation to be useful to >> readers. >>> * Page 34 >>> >>> There are three classes of information that a central controller >> or >>> distributed control plane needs to know that can only be obtained >>> from the end systems and/or nodes in the network. >>> >>> Wouldn't it be sufficient to state "Provisioning of DetNet >> requires knowledge >>> about ...". Does it matter in this context whether the >> provisioning is done >>> by a central controller or a distributed control plane? For >> instance, could >>> the same paragraph also apply to a network that uses _multiple_ >> central >>> controllers, or hybrid combinations of central controllers and >> distributed >>> control planes? In general, an architecture document should be >> agnostic to >>> implementation aspects unless there is a specific need. In this >> specific >>> case, I fail to see a need to discuss the realization of the >> control plane of >>> a network. >>> >>> Editorial nits: >>> >>> * Page 9: >>> >>> The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 provide the >>> necessary regulation of transmissions by an end system or >>> intermediate node to provide congestion protection. The >> allocation >>> of the bandwidth and buffers for a DetNet flow requires >> provisioning >>> A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation >> and/or >>> scheduling, that might otherwise be over-subscribed and trigger >> the >>> rejection of a reservation. >>> >>> Probably a full stop is missing after "provisioning". >>> >>> * Page 11: "... along separate (disjoint non-SRLG) paths ..." >>> >>> I find this confusing. I would understand e.g. "along separate >>> (SRLG-disjoint) paths". >>> >>> * Page 34: >>> >>> When using a peer- >>> to-peer control plane, some of this information may be required >> by a >>> system's neighbors in the network. >>> >>> Would "acquired" be a better term? >>> >>> * Page 34: >>> >>> o The identity of the system's neighbors, and the >> characteristics of >>> the link(s) between the systems, including the length (in >>> nanoseconds) of the link(s). >>> >>> "Latency" or "delay" would probably be a better terms if the value >> is >>> measured in nanoseconds. >>> >>> * Page 35: >>> >>> DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does >> not >>> directly raise any new privacy considerations. >>> >>> Broken sentence >>> >>> * Please expand acronyms on first use (e.g., OTN) >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Tue Nov 20 07:02:37 2018 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([fe80::bd73:d6a9:24d7:95f1%10]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 16:33:49 +0100 From: "Scharf, Michael" To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: On DetNet terminology Thread-Index: AdSA5m31NS/IOE2pQnS8Uu9F6OhbVQ== Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:33:48 +0000 Message-ID: <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16C0D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [134.108.2.171] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] On DetNet terminology X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:33:53 -0000 ZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1kZXRuZXQtYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLTA5IHN0YXRlczoNCg0KRGV0TmV0IHJlbGF5 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Thread-Topic: [Tsv-art] [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 Thread-Index: AQHUgFVosOKeDSScmU+ee1C7nOgUwaVY52UA///vkpA= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 16:19:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.105.8.135] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd02.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-11-20_07:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 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PAQygm5P0Vl4fPAQygw2GY; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:07:37 -0700 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ZqGs2T3HX7dOFzbZbywznoFWnlupbpW17w/2S/rh9mo=; b=cX7CS1mxdSHz0N1OALAmiYApPh C6PFRB+lFP9TCDjdHz42aedZqJTABAkpUBxSfLelhIzdQW84CzM2xV7VWywP/D0v4kecCj7BYDNOi zAILByidbqjVW6dHy6yHxrdCl; Received: from pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.106.211]:48308 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gPAQy-003NX5-N9; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:07:36 -0700 To: "Scharf, Michael" Cc: "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16C02A@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <505e7a95-05bd-5dcb-628f-460790fc1b12@labn.net> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 13:07:35 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16C02A@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.106.211 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gPAQy-003NX5-N9 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.106.211]:48308 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 3 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 18:21:54 -0000 Michael, Thanks for the clarification. On 11/20/2018 10:02 AM, Scharf, Michael wrote: > Lou, > > Just regarding my comment that seems unclear... > > [snip] > >>> In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review comment "It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network robustness and safety" >> I have no idea what you mean by safety here.  Can you elaborate. > As far as I understand, DetNet introduces network functions that at least partly novel, such as PREOF. And as PREOF explicitly allows solutions beyond 1+1 protection ("network coding" is mentioned as example). at the network layer, protection and restoration is not new. There is LFAs. FRR, 1+1, 1:n, shared mesh etc all defined in RFCs - mostly, but not solely for MPLS.  It's also not new transport protocol layer either as there is work (have to check if RFCs) on network coding and 1+1 -- but this is outside the scope of Detnet. > I believe that any new function typically raises operational issues. > > Out-of-my-head, here are some examples of potential challenges that seem not well addressed in -09: > > - PREOF (and specifically) PEF as a single point of failure: Is there any need to worry about that? As far as I can see, the document discusses failures of paths between POF and PEF, but not failures of the functions themselves. Wouldn't it make sense to discuss basic requirements such as implementing these functions redundantly etc.? And if they are implemented redundantly, does this impact the architecture, e.g., result in additional interfaces that may need standardization? No more so than exists in the current  RFCs related to the topic. > - Overload of DetNet components: As another example for PREOF, how would a DetNet deployment ensure that PEF never gets overloaded? Umm, how does an RFC ever dictate that a router/node/host isn't overloaded?  In the normal internet case, I think this is way outside the scope of an RFC.  For TE networks, this is what configuration/management/control is all about - and sure we can add a sentence on that. > Buffering and resequencing of packets requires processing. Techniques to allocate buffer space alone may not be enough to ensure that PEF never gets overloaded. Is this a problem or not? And even if this problem may perhaps not really exist for 1+1, is there no need to worry about other, possibly more complex PREOF schemes that may require complex packet processing (or even coding)? Are there scaling issues in PREOF? And could this impact signaling, e.g., require control plane protocol extensions? yes, there is configuration/management/control-- this can be mentioned. > > More generally, if the intention of DetNet is to carry mission-critical or safety-critical traffic that cannot tolerate any packet loss, let alone any downtime, wouldn't words such as "reliability", "dependability", "redundancy", "high availability", etc. be relevant in a description of the architecture? (Some of these terms are actually used in this document, mostly in references to non-IETF work.) The IETF generally just defines the behavior on the wire in standards track RFCs and let others define requirement system performance levels.  I don't think we should be changing this in DetNet. > And this may not only matter for the data plane. Assuming that a lot of DetNet traffic requires extremely high reliability, are there architectural requirements on components outside the data plane, e.g., regarding redundancy? Obviously, control plane and management plane functions are often built today already as high availability solutions, but if the intention is to _never_ fail, isn't there a risk that DetNet may require solutions "better-than-current-IP" outside the data plane as well? There are plenty of high availability (and different level of availability) implementations of systems out there.  The only think the IETF gets involved with specifying are those aspects that impact interoperability between systems.  (E.g., all the graceful restart related extensions in control plane protocols). Again, I don't think it's for DetNet to move beyond this. > This list of topics may not be comprehensive. I just want to illustrate some examples for what could also matter when running a network _really_ deterministically, beyond the well-known congestion issue. > > However, just to be precise: I don't ask for additional text to address what is written in this e-mail. Thanks - it sounds like we're ending at the same place even if we didn't follow the same path to get here. Thanks again for comments/review.  I do think we'll have a better document once the other points are addressed. Lou > Michael From nobody Tue Nov 20 10:27:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD30130DD3; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 10:27:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t4JWEYO4k3vQ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 10:27:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com 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15.00.1395.000; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:27:46 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Lou Berger , "Scharf, Michael" CC: "detnet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) Thread-Index: AQHUgP3z0JBFm94YF0qDkFVGBwC/rKVY+sOg Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 18:27:28 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 18:26:36 +0000 Message-ID: References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.5] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiA+Pj4gZGV0bmV0IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiA+Pj4g ZGV0bmV0QGlldGYub3JnDQo+ID4+PiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3Rp bmZvL2RldG5ldA0K From nobody Tue Nov 20 11:04:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3C29130DC6 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:04:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with 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Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=xKmc69pypnP5SvetGhkR7ueHSRZjre0wsFe+n/qcuCQ=; b=sURfiIABdy2S7KZbvwPHIzH/Do KMnlnjuQKeyuFGkz8xn+4vqmteV/9YkAWxDa+F7v9nhBw+rwHiD+r54OAP4SGPh548KA5JsmiPFNO ihA9LUprqL1gWb7/ezK98UFww; Received: from pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.106.211]:48462 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gPAbl-003R8V-9S; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:18:45 -0700 To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Scharf, Michael" Cc: "detnet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 13:18:44 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.106.211 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gPAbl-003R8V-9S X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.106.211]:48462 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 7 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 19:04:30 -0000 ALL, There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the DetNet Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport protocols. In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced "Transport" with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this change? To be clear, the suggestion is: OLD                    .                    .      +----------------------------+      |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE      +----------------------------+      | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, MPLS SR      +----------------------------+                    .                    .                  Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane NEW                    .                    .      +----------------------------+      |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE      +----------------------------+      |      DetNet TE sub-layer   | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, MPLS SR      +----------------------------+                    .                    .                  Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane Lou On 11/20/2018 11:21 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > Hello Lou: > > > About ' discuss changing the name of the "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to avoid the word "transport". ' > > For one I'd like to make that call. The unfortunate name collision has started to hurt us quite a bit already and people are getting confused on very active exchanges we have on the mailing list. > > I tend to agree that for the general IETF "transport" generally means "L4". Even point one in your email uses "transport" that way I guess. Sadly many alternate names are highly overloaded already (think "carrier" for instance, or "bus"). I like the term "train" because of the association with a schedule, but that's just me. > > Same goes actually for the complex path that we build. That complex path can be an elongated DODAG with multiple PREOF points. Usual terms like "circuit" or "path" fail to capture that complexity. 6TiSCH found the term "Track" to refer to it. > > Would you push that discussion to the ML? > > Take care, > > Pascal > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Lou Berger >> Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 13:11 >> To: Scharf, Michael >> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet- >> architecture.all@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 >> >> Michael, >> >> I think we're getting somewhere and identifying where we have disconnects >> and what may (and what may not) need to change in the document.  My >> takeaways are: >> >> - The document needs a good 'scrub' of the congestion related references to >> ensure that the document only makes statements on what is actually done >> within a DetNet and the relationship with transport protocols that use detnet >> (which are in fact outside the scope of the DetNet WG).  I'll work with the >> authors and WG on this -- I see this change as important, but editorial in >> nature. >> >> - We have a perception issue with at least one member of the TSV area on the >> meaning and more importantly, implication, of the term "DetNet >> *Transport* sub-layer".  While I don't disagree that a good portion of the IETF >> thinks transport protocol (UDP/TCP) when they hear "transport" >> there are plenty others, particularly in the routing area, who understand that >> "transport" can refer to Transport Networks.  And Transport Network is a well >> understood general industry term. The IETF even has a bunch of RFCs that >> relate to Transport networks.  This said, I think it reasonable to go back to the >> DetNet WG and discuss changing the name of the "DetNet Transport sub- >> layer"  to avoid the word "transport".  -- BTW we made a parallel change in >> the TEAS WG when producing RFC8453. >> >> See below for detail response in-line. >> >> On 11/19/2018 5:15 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote: >>> Lou, >>> >>>> -- >>>> I wanted to take a step back from the multiple discussions that were >>>> spawned by your review -- from a doc shepherd perspective, and see >>>> where we are.   I know that the authors have sent a -09 version that >>>> addresses some, but not all issues. >>>> >>>> From the exchanges I've seen, I think the key remaining issues are >>>> related to: >>>> >>>> (a) possibly introduction of congestion in the general internet if >>>> packets were somehow to escape a detnet domain.  The source of this >>>> congestion would be inelastic traffic using DetNet or due to >>>> congestion loss that is masked by PREOF. >>> These are two major issues that need to be addressed. Note that it may not >> be sufficient just to add a section on operational and deployment >> considerations. Also the existing text in the document will need to get aligned >> to normative guidance on how to avoid a congestion collapse. >>> In -09, one example would be Section 3.1. "Primary goals defining the >> DetNet QoS" >>> Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along the path >>> of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. Congestion >>> protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, packet loss >>> due to output packet congestion within the network, but it can only >>> be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to a >>> maximum packet size and transmission rate. Note that congestion >>> protection provided via congestion detection and notification is >>> explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it serves a >>> different set of applications. >>> At least the last sentence would contradict a better discussion of congestion >> in the document. For instance, it could just be removed. In any case, the >> current wording in the last sentence is not correct, as the IETF term for what is >> described in the last sentence is "congestion control". >>> Another example would be Section 3.2.1.1. "Eliminate congestion loss" >>> >>> The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS assurances is to >>> reduce, or even completely eliminate, congestion within a DetNet node >>> as a cause of packet loss. This can be achieved only by the >>> provision of sufficient buffer storage at each node through the >>> network to ensure that no packets are dropped due to a lack of buffer >>> storage. Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled, i.e., its >>> transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion >>> notification. >>> >>> This section IMHO has to include a discussion of what happens in the (not >> expected) case that packets get dropped or that ECN marks are received. It is >> understood that this would not happen in normal operation of a DetNet >> network, but I believe just considering the error-free operation of a DetNet >> network is not sufficient for this document. At least for the risk of traffic that >> may escape from a DetNet network is inherently not sufficient to assume that >> the DetNet network is always error-free. >> >> I think these are examples of text that needs to be cleanup up and to >> delineate what is done with a DetNet. >> >> >>> As a result, addressing my concerns will most likely require editing several >> parts of the document. >>> In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review comment "It is surprising >> that there is hardly any discussion on network robustness and safety" >> >> I have no idea what you mean by safety here.  Can you elaborate. >> >> >>> covers more than just inelastic traffic that escapes from a DetNet network >> and masking of packet loss. Given that DetNet traffic may be extremely critical >> traffic, I really wonder why the document doesn't emphasize more the >> required robustness against failures *inside* the DetNet network as well as >> counter-measures. But this is something the WG needs to decide. As TSV-ART >> reviewer, I will be fine if the document clearly describes how the impact of >> failures will be isolated inside the DetNet network and will not put the general >> Internet at risk. >> >> I agree - I think, the document should be clear on it's scope and >> relationship to general internet usage. >> >> >>>> (b) The use of the term 'transport' in DetNet to refer to what is >>>> basically a Traffic Engineered sub-network layer, such as is provided >>>> with MPLS-TE or Optical Transport Networks. >>> In the Internet architecture, the term 'transport' refers to Internet transport >> protocols. I doubt that the document can avoid discussing the implications of >> and interactions with Internet transport protocols such as UDP or TCP. As a >> result, I disagree that the document can use the term 'transport' to refer to >> traffic engineered sub-network layers. >> >> I think this is covered by my comment above. >> >> >>> From a TSV-ART point of view, the document can either only use the term >> "transport" for Internet transport protocols and use another term for sub- >> network layers (as handled in the *routing* area of the IETF), or the document >> has to clearly distinguish between the Internet transport layer and other uses >> of the term "transport" and explain the overlap. I believe the former would be >> less confusing, but I will leave it up to the TSV ADs to discuss terminology >> overlap in the IESG. As TSV-ART reviewer I insist that the document uses the >> terms "transport layer" and "transport protocol" only when referring to the >> Internet transport layer. >> >> I'm personally okay with a name change and even willing to push this >> discussion within the WG, but as said above, "Transport Network" is a >> generally understood industry term that is also used in RFCs -- so we'll >> have to see what where WG consensus ends up. >> >>>> Do you have any other issues that that are critical to be addressed >>>> before this work moves forward? If so which? >>> Regarding Section 4.4 I have already deferred the discussion to the IESG. The >> TSV-ART review comment is that the IESG needs to carefully look at the >> concepts, terminology, and references in section 4.4. >>> Regarding my other comments, I acknowledge that -09 is a step forward. But >> given the cross-dependencies e.g. regarding terminology and definitions, I will >> need to read the text completely once there is a proposal how to address my >> review. As noted in my review, I believe the document must use terminology >> clearly and consistently. As example, a statement in -09 such as "Network >> nodes supporting DetNet flows have to implement some of the DetNet >> capabilities (not necessarily all) in order to treat DetNet flows such that their >> QoS requirements are met" is IMHO too vague. But in such cases it depends >> whether there is precise normative guidance elsewhere. And this requires >> looking at the text as a whole. >> >> I think the next steps lie with me and the WG.  We'll let you know once >> there is a new version.  Of course, you can also contribute to the WG >> discussion on the topic. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Lou >> >>> Best regards >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> Lou >>>> >>>> On 9/28/2018 6:24 PM, Michael Scharf wrote: >>>>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf >>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues >>>>> >>>>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" >>>>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall framework for >>>>> Deterministic Networking. >>>>> >>>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues as >>>> detailed below. >>>>> Michael >>>>> >>>>> Major issues: >>>>> >>>>> * It seems that DetNet cannot easily be deployed in the Internet >>>> without >>>>> additional means. Thus, for a baseline document, one could expect >>>> some >>>>> explanation on the requirements of deploying DetNet in a network. >>>> DetNet >>>>> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices >>>> transporting DetNet >>>>> traffic. That assumption should be explicitly spelt out early in the >>>> document, >>>>> e.g., in the introduction. There also needs to be an explicit >>>> discussion of the >>>>> implications if not the whole network is aware of or supports DetNet. >>>> There is >>>>> some text in Section 4.2.2 and Section 4.3.3, but I believe >>>> additional explicit >>>>> discussion is needed at a prominant place. For instance, can use of >>>> DetNet do >>>>> harm to parts of a network not supporting DetNet? As a side note, >>>> when TCPM >>>>> published RFC 8257, the following disclaimer was added: "DCTCP, as >>>> described in >>>>> this specification, is applicable to deployments in controlled >>>> environments >>>>> like data centers, but it must not be deployed over the public >>>> Internet without >>>>> additional measures." I wonder if a similar disclaimer is needed for >>>> DetNet. If >>>>> there is an implicit assumption that DetNet will be used in >>>> homogenous >>>>> environments with mostly DetNet-aware devices within the same >>>> organization, >>>>> such an assumption should be made explicit. >>>>> >>>>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network >>>> robustness >>>>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For instance, >>>>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet replication >>>> could >>>>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How does the >>>> DetNet >>>>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. if >>>> the topology >>>>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be solved >>>> by >>>>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are >>>> corresponding >>>>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that filters and >>>> policers >>>>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still assumes >>>> consistently >>>>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And Section >>>> 3.3.2 is >>>>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" without >>>> stating >>>>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further solutions, >>>> such as >>>>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not discussed? >>>>> >>>>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of failures to >>>> the QoS of >>>>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to protect non- >>>> DetNet parts >>>>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. Solutions to >>>> this >>>>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic (e.g., in >>>> case of >>>>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not discussed at >>>> all in the >>>>> document? >>>>> >>>>> * Regarding security, an architecture like DetNet probably requires >>>> that only >>>>> authenticated and authorized end systems have access to the data >>>> plane. The >>>>> security considerations only briefly mention the control aspect ("the >>>>> authentication and authorization of the controlling systems"). >>>>> >>>>> * For an architecture document, the lack of clarity and consistency >>>> regarding >>>>> terminology is concerning. This specifically applies to the case of >>>> incomplete >>>>> networks (as per Section 4.2.2 and 4.3.3) that include "DetNet- >>>> unaware nodes". >>>>> The document introduces terms such as "DetNet intermediate nodes" but >>>> then >>>>> repeatedly uses generic terms such as "node" or "hop" that may >>>> include >>>>> DetNet-unaware nodes. For instance, for incomplete networks, a >>>> sentence such as >>>>> "The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS assurances is to >>>> reduce, or >>>>> even completely eliminate, congestion within a node as a cause of >>>> packet loss" >>>>> seems to only apply to "DetNet transit nodes" but not "DetNet-unaware >>>> nodes". >>>>> Similar ambiguity exist for other use of the terms "hop" and "node", >>>> which may >>>>> or may not include DetNet-unaware nodes. It is unclear why the >>>> document does >>>>> not consistently use the terminology introduced in Section 2.1 in all >>>> sections >>>>> and clearly distinguishes cases with and without DetNet support. >>>>> >>>>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational RFC on >>>> IRTF stream, >>>>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., "planes"). >>>> This is >>>>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should probably >>>> refer to >>>>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC 7491, albeit >>>> there is >>>>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, Section 4.4 >>>> is by and >>>>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not specific to >>>> DetNet. >>>>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the concepts >>>> introduced in >>>>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology or >>>> discuss >>>>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly at the >>>> end that >>>>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet architecture. >>>> It is not >>>>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 could >>>> be removed >>>>> from the document without impacting the rest of the document. >>>>> >>>>> Minor issues: >>>>> >>>>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" >>>>> >>>>> The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in the IETF, >>>> e.g. >>>>> originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. "transport >>>> network" is >>>>> used in the IETF for different technologies in different areas, I >>>> think the >>>>> term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer to >>>> transport >>>>> protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find the term >>>> "DetNet >>>>> transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion is easy >>>> to see e.g. >>>>> in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as per RFC >>>> 1122) sits >>>>> on top of "transport". >>>>> >>>>> Based on the document it also may be solution/implementation >>>> specific whether >>>>> the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate protocol layer >>>> compared >>>>> to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me why the >>>> word >>>>> "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination "transport >>>> layer". >>>>> To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport protocol") >>>> should be >>>>> used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with RFC 1122. >>>> But this is >>>>> probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. >>>>> >>>>> * Page 9 >>>>> >>>>> A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation >>>> and/or >>>>> scheduling, >>>>> >>>>> This is just one of several examples for inconsistent use of >>>> terminology. >>>>> What is a "DetNet node"? That term is not introduced in Section >>>> 2.1 >>>>> * Page 14 >>>>> >>>>> A DetNet network supports the dedication of a high proportion >>>> (e.g. >>>>> 75%) of the network bandwidth to DetNet flows. >>>>> >>>>> The 75% value is not reasoned. What prevents using 99% of the >>>> bandwidth for >>>>> DetNet traffic? >>>>> >>>>> * Page 15: Figure 2 >>>>> >>>>> If the term "transport layer" cannot be avoided, the labels in >>>> this figure >>>>> should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport layer". >>>>> >>>>> * Page 18: Figure 4 >>>>> >>>>> As already mentioned earlier, Figure 4 is confusing. UDP is a >>>> transport >>>>> protocol. If the term "transport" cannot be avoided, the labels in >>>> this >>>>> figure should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport". >>>>> >>>>> * Page 23 >>>>> >>>>> If the source transmits less data than this limit >>>>> allows, the unused resource such as link bandwidth can be made >>>>> available by the system to non-DetNet packets. >>>>> >>>>> Could there be additional requirements on the use of unused >>>> resources by >>>>> non-DetNet packets, e.g., regarding preemption? I am just >>>> wondering... If >>>>> that was possible, a statement like "... can be made available by >>>> the system >>>>> to non-DetNet packets as long as all guarantees are fulfilled" >>>> would be on >>>>> the safe side, no? >>>>> >>>>> * Page 27: >>>>> >>>>> DetNet achieves congestion protection and bounded delivery >>>> latency by >>>>> reserving bandwidth and buffer resources at every hop along the >>>> path >>>>> of the DetNet flow. >>>>> >>>>> Why does this sentence use the word "hop"? As far as I understand, >>>> in DetNet >>>>> bandwidth and buffer resources are reserved in each DetNet >>>> intermediate node. >>>>> If there were hops over IP routers not being DetNet intermediate >>>> nodes, no >>>>> resources would be reserved there. As per Section 4.3.3, it is >>>> possible to >>>>> deploy DetNet this way. And obviously there can be resource >>>> bottlenecks below >>>>> IP, on devices that are not routers... So does "hop" here refer to >>>> IP router >>>>> hops or also to devices not processing IP (or IP/MPLS)? >>>>> >>>>> * Page 27: >>>>> >>>>> Standard queuing and transmission selection algorithms allow a >>>>> central controller to compute the latency contribution of each >>>>> transit node to the end-to-end latency, ... >>>>> >>>>> The text does not explain why a _central_ controller is needed for >>>> this >>>>> computation. Why would a distributed control plane not be able to >>>> realize >>>>> this computation. Isn't this implementation-specific? >>>>> >>>>> * Page 32 >>>>> >>>>> To somebody who is not deeply familiar with DetNet, it is >>>> impossible to parse >>>>> the description of the examples in Section 4.7.3. For instance, >>>> "VID + >>>>> multicast MAC address" is not introduced. I think this example >>>> must be >>>>> expaned with additional context and explanation to be useful to >>>> readers. >>>>> * Page 34 >>>>> >>>>> There are three classes of information that a central controller >>>> or >>>>> distributed control plane needs to know that can only be obtained >>>>> from the end systems and/or nodes in the network. >>>>> >>>>> Wouldn't it be sufficient to state "Provisioning of DetNet >>>> requires knowledge >>>>> about ...". Does it matter in this context whether the >>>> provisioning is done >>>>> by a central controller or a distributed control plane? For >>>> instance, could >>>>> the same paragraph also apply to a network that uses _multiple_ >>>> central >>>>> controllers, or hybrid combinations of central controllers and >>>> distributed >>>>> control planes? In general, an architecture document should be >>>> agnostic to >>>>> implementation aspects unless there is a specific need. In this >>>> specific >>>>> case, I fail to see a need to discuss the realization of the >>>> control plane of >>>>> a network. >>>>> >>>>> Editorial nits: >>>>> >>>>> * Page 9: >>>>> >>>>> The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 provide the >>>>> necessary regulation of transmissions by an end system or >>>>> intermediate node to provide congestion protection. The >>>> allocation >>>>> of the bandwidth and buffers for a DetNet flow requires >>>> provisioning >>>>> A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation >>>> and/or >>>>> scheduling, that might otherwise be over-subscribed and trigger >>>> the >>>>> rejection of a reservation. >>>>> >>>>> Probably a full stop is missing after "provisioning". >>>>> >>>>> * Page 11: "... along separate (disjoint non-SRLG) paths ..." >>>>> >>>>> I find this confusing. I would understand e.g. "along separate >>>>> (SRLG-disjoint) paths". >>>>> >>>>> * Page 34: >>>>> >>>>> When using a peer- >>>>> to-peer control plane, some of this information may be required >>>> by a >>>>> system's neighbors in the network. >>>>> >>>>> Would "acquired" be a better term? >>>>> >>>>> * Page 34: >>>>> >>>>> o The identity of the system's neighbors, and the >>>> characteristics of >>>>> the link(s) between the systems, including the length (in >>>>> nanoseconds) of the link(s). >>>>> >>>>> "Latency" or "delay" would probably be a better terms if the value >>>> is >>>>> measured in nanoseconds. >>>>> >>>>> * Page 35: >>>>> >>>>> DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does >>>> not >>>>> directly raise any new privacy considerations. >>>>> >>>>> Broken sentence >>>>> >>>>> * Please expand acronyms on first use (e.g., OTN) >>>>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Tue Nov 20 12:11:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18B9F130DCF; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:11:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f8WY5GGgpp_G; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:11:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82e.google.com (mail-qt1-x82e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2C0012D4E9; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:11:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82e.google.com with SMTP id r14so1449741qtp.1; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:11:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hDce6O03DsvHZKFc9g5cL1yN/8yTR5ye6blUHIIjdtU=; b=WIsRWwHun+8wjp+btNLPyTDXJkXDuEyYBV+YUavN5NwSPJpcJhUbEBlcVRCiJX/zfJ X8SjXgsxh6iuP2+8VH1NCbGKrbZ8z6N2IhAh2AUCO0qAeXL3QwSoq1rauaUu1azySX1S 9o7jpHOpVYA2I5RIpxq1xZKGO7p4P3B8OFsdLHdANztYKF8661vHBnaZMsF3zsybal07 jbNay3rv0pnyRgJzHGMXDRF4Gk2sHUX+D3TLG1waUHaxmgVQUQ3VTNfODSQtZaRDubnd bMirsi5WWleH6vLhYMwLwAL1x5US4Xc/pzQKnxQ74rhCG868WCNfsiIp149QsfpPcVSK fzhw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hDce6O03DsvHZKFc9g5cL1yN/8yTR5ye6blUHIIjdtU=; b=HvgdCh53Tr7LVUPPEZiNQYovAID9rc15DfRVIkev0zjaSaitq8lw1Ihxpvb9zIQ0T+ elkC1KI2yOKezdC78I2k2zdFOPXZPn1s03ZkwkJdIB3OwiDDGlOkQ4lAxdvPHNLu9i/Q lpPW7psxcYKRff0GaDBvH7udg1Iazg5priaTYnT9PRTwjPLQHMbuR+0YcI4vX6LV3oKG tmhohpCnUoUoFQhkGk7RonDNfLJLN0nAnE+cUtXIA9X5YVvMBcOJyCjQ/v7rdujJ7jks 7nk6qpDlt046uGK7ymOO9x0wTsIxE1FNlRg3sZpCvt0Golgsz3f9+lCEkdGuehTgz9ne m7wA== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWYbEhd3hwPdHJCQb6Zk4lTBR2qowF0NiF2kAqr+hsWuvfkvwE/D HXeDijlT/yfHSWDP0qu29SSPpCzGhxptHLiXAVY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/UjtPRh/tWO2ECg7C20jav2MtznEHm17QR1TsdJBiLoLo4XtoxIiorQT2mbTEDSGHd+Xz3nY3SSFHiEtShHvms= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:c389:: with SMTP id o9mr3380964qvi.90.1542744713987; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:11:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:11:42 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Grossman, Ethan A." Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Lou Berger , Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de, draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org, detnet WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a80c73057b1e3e89" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 20:11:57 -0000 --000000000000a80c73057b1e3e89 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This terminology is certainly appropriate for TEAS. For DetNet, this seems to make the assertion that the DetNet underlay is always traffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv6 (which is certainly possible using TE extensions for the IGPs). As long as people are OK with this assertion, then I'm OK with it as well. That should be made clear in the architecture spec where the term "DetNet TE sub-layer" is introduced/defined. Cheers, Andy On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:29 PM Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > I like it. > Ethan. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:27 AM > To: Lou Berger ; Scharf, Michael < > Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de> > Cc: detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org > Subject: RE: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last > call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > > I support this change; > > Pascal > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lou Berger > > Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 19:19 > > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; Scharf, Michael > > > > Cc: detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org > > Subject: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last > > call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > > > > ALL, > > > > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the DetNet > > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport protocols. > > > > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced "Transport" > > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". > > > > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this change? > > > > To be clear, the suggestion is: > > > > OLD > > > > . > > . > > +----------------------------+ > > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE > > +----------------------------+ > > | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, MPLS SR > > +----------------------------+ > > . > > . > > > > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > > > NEW > > > > . > > . > > +----------------------------+ > > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE > > +----------------------------+ > > | DetNet TE sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, MPLS SR > > +----------------------------+ > > . > > . > > > > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > > > Lou > > --000000000000a80c73057b1e3e89 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This terminology is certainly appropriate for TEAS. For De= tNet, this seems to make the assertion that the DetNet underlay is always t= raffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv6 (which is certainly possible using = TE extensions for the IGPs).

As long as people are OK wi= th this assertion, then I'm OK with it as well. That should be made cle= ar in the architecture spec where the term "DetNet TE sub-layer" = is introduced/defined.

Cheers,
Andy
On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:= 29 PM Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dol= by.com> wrote:
I like it. Ethan.

-----Original Message-----
From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:27 AM
To: Lou Berger <lb= erger@labn.net>; Scharf, Michael <Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de>=
Cc: detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last = call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08)

I support this change;

Pascal

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
> Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 19:19
> To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; Scharf, Michael
> <Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de>
> Cc: detnet@ietf.o= rg; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org
> Subject: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last=
> call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08)
>
> ALL,
>
> There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the D= etNet
> Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport protocols. >
> In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced "Trans= port"
> with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ".
>
> While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this change?
>
> To be clear, the suggestion is:
>
> OLD
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +----------------------------+
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 DetNet Service sub-layer=C2=A0 = | PW, UDP, GRE
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +----------------------------+
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IP= v4, MPLS TE LSPs, MPLS SR
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +----------------------------+
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane=
>
> NEW
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +----------------------------+
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 DetNet Service sub-layer=C2=A0 = | PW, UDP, GRE
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +----------------------------+
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DetNet = TE sub-layer =C2=A0 | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, MPLS SR
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +----------------------------+
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane=
>
> Lou

--000000000000a80c73057b1e3e89-- From nobody Tue Nov 20 13:11:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86691130E8F for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 13:11:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iYVci0RjF1Tf for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 13:11:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy7-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy7-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [70.40.196.235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EEEC130E89 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 13:11:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw10.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.10]) by gproxy7.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42E9C216011 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 14:11:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id PDIRgZmjiuj2oPDISgwtNK; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 14:11:00 -0700 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=6wRzG2MTN3UUYv1j4tAnDBUsHRdE2VaPqN1Wcg/8p+4=; b=g0xJ6NfHmTCxhMu1GkoHxb1jyU d2phc9lRH4otDqn2PHsgkl2uBPKy6D83IKDkxHzEqlLn30yuvxhMLv81OHwAEXG5QyVtXnunV9I+r WWgJvWc7MjzYBKCl34kz1EBIK; Received: from pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.106.211]:38968 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gPDIR-004HeL-Nl; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 14:10:59 -0700 To: "Andrew G. Malis" , "Grossman, Ethan A." Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de, draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org, detnet WG References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 16:10:58 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.106.211 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gPDIR-004HeL-Nl X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.106.211]:38968 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 6 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 21:11:09 -0000 On 11/20/2018 3:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > This terminology is certainly appropriate for TEAS. For DetNet, this > seems to make the assertion that the DetNet underlay is always > traffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv6 (which is certainly possible > using TE extensions for the IGPs). This is certainly a fair point and one that does lead me to have a slight reservation about the change, that said, it seems the benefit out ways the downsides. > > As long as people are OK with this assertion, then I'm OK with it as > well. That should be made clear in the architecture spec where the > term "DetNet TE sub-layer" is introduced/defined. agreed. Lou > > Cheers, > Andy > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:29 PM Grossman, Ethan A. > wrote: > > I like it. > Ethan. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:27 AM > To: Lou Berger >; > Scharf, Michael > > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; > draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] > Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > > I support this change; > > Pascal > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lou Berger > > > Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 19:19 > > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >; Scharf, Michael > > > > > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; > draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org > > > Subject: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] > Tsvart last > > call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > > > > ALL, > > > > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the DetNet > > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport protocols. > > > > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced > "Transport" > > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". > > > > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this change? > > > > To be clear, the suggestion is: > > > > OLD > > > >                     . > >                     . > >       +----------------------------+ > >       |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE > >       +----------------------------+ > >       | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, > MPLS SR > >       +----------------------------+ > >                     . > >                     . > > > >                   Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > > > NEW > > > >                     . > >                     . > >       +----------------------------+ > >       |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE > >       +----------------------------+ > >       |      DetNet TE sub-layer   | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, > MPLS SR > >       +----------------------------+ > >                     . > >                     . > > > >                   Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > > > Lou > From nobody Tue Nov 20 13:34:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACFF212F1AB; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 13:34:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fCfKRQp-J8t6; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 13:34:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22EEB130DCF; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 13:34:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FECA54801D; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 22:34:22 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 84F50440210; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 22:34:22 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 22:34:22 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Lou Berger Cc: "Andrew G. Malis" , "Grossman, Ethan A." , draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , detnet WG , Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de Message-ID: <20181120213422.6zitt6iqhd5rmb6k@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 21:34:33 -0000 IMHO, "Traffic Engineering" will be worse than "Transport": - Makes more important people confused IMHO, the mayor group of people (rightfully) confused by the term "Transport" in the DetNet context are IETF apps and transport area people, and quite frankly, thats not the primary reader constituency of DetNet documents. Network operators / vendors / TSN members / TSN solutoin devenlopers, aka: the primary reader consitutency for DetNet documents will IMHO be less confused by "Transport" than by "Traffic Engineering". - Creates even more inconsistent confusion IMHO, Differnt confused people will even more likely assume through name recognition a lot more different functions into "Traffic Engineering". (TE means RSVP-TE, oh no, TE means network planning, TE can not mean QoS, TE is jut admission control, no TE needs to be per-hop, yada yada yada). I am not arguing for keeping Transport, i am just more worried about "Traffic Engineering" than "Transport". I think a uniue new term without name recognition and resulting confusion would be best. Maybe form a new term from key words like the following, eg.: DetNet Flow SubNetwork Encapsulation and Adaption Layer (DF-SEAL) Cheers Toerless On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 04:10:58PM -0500, Lou Berger wrote: > > On 11/20/2018 3:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > This terminology is certainly appropriate for TEAS. For DetNet, this > > seems to make the assertion that the DetNet underlay is always > > traffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv6 (which is certainly possible > > using TE extensions for the IGPs). > > This is certainly a fair point and one that does lead me to have a slight > reservation about the change, that said, it seems the benefit out ways the > downsides. > > > > > As long as people are OK with this assertion, then I'm OK with it as > > well. That should be made clear in the architecture spec where the term > > "DetNet TE sub-layer" is introduced/defined. > > agreed. > > Lou > > > > > Cheers, > > Andy > > > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:29 PM Grossman, Ethan A. > > wrote: > > > > I like it. > > Ethan. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:27 AM > > To: Lou Berger >; > > Scharf, Michael > > > > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; > > draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > Subject: RE: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] > > Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > > > > I support this change; > > > > Pascal > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Lou Berger > > > > Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 19:19 > > > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > >; Scharf, Michael > > > > > > > > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; > > draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > > Subject: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] > > Tsvart last > > > call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > > > > > > ALL, > > > > > > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the DetNet > > > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport protocols. > > > > > > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced > > "Transport" > > > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". > > > > > > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this change? > > > > > > To be clear, the suggestion is: > > > > > > OLD > > > > > > . > > > . > > > +----------------------------+ > > > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE > > > +----------------------------+ > > > | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, > > MPLS SR > > > +----------------------------+ > > > . > > > . > > > > > > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > > > > > NEW > > > > > > . > > > . > > > +----------------------------+ > > > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE > > > +----------------------------+ > > > | DetNet TE sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, > > MPLS SR > > > +----------------------------+ > > > . > > > . > > > > > > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > > > > > Lou > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Tue Nov 20 13:39:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEA7C130DD3; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 13:39:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) 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X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-2.7.1 (20120429) (Debian) at hs-esslingen.de Received: from mail.hs-esslingen.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (hs-esslingen.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K5TC60TpiDzV; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 22:39:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from rznt8102.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de (rznt8102.hs-esslingen.de [134.108.29.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.hs-esslingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 22:39:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from RZNT8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de ([169.254.3.98]) by rznt8102.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de ([fe80::f977:d5e6:6b09:56ac%10]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 22:39:16 +0100 From: "Scharf, Michael" To: Lou Berger CC: "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Tsv-art] [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 Thread-Index: AQHUgB1y5LtWcAVh50yat0D4Ke6LC6VXhkBAgAD9AACAABmYoIAASf2AgAA7QUA= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 21:39:16 +0000 Message-ID: <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16C6D0@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16C02A@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <505e7a95-05bd-5dcb-628f-460790fc1b12@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <505e7a95-05bd-5dcb-628f-460790fc1b12@labn.net> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [134.108.29.249] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG 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from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id PEawgsDlOVl4fPEawg2861; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:34:11 -0700 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=qvho1GSC1q3TUZR4lH6XVbU7gjwLtAa8qtRBxSRBOSM=; b=Q/etJu6bw0fbRtl0KUdCmb0IR6 VKSnETpyZC0hTJV0RB/JrMvQaxV9mYNeApDtCXC9Jbhwc2CsoaRiotKlcwx2kv3N20kKL1nWBegSl v96oq+CT4VKERmWkgpJr3Wf2E; Received: from pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.106.211]:47416 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gPEaw-000I3R-L3; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:34:10 -0700 To: Toerless Eckert Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Andrew G. Malis" , Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de, draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org, "Grossman, Ethan A." , detnet WG References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> <20181120213422.6zitt6iqhd5rmb6k@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 17:34:09 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181120213422.6zitt6iqhd5rmb6k@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.106.211 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gPEaw-000I3R-L3 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.106.211]:47416 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 7 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 22:34:16 -0000 Hi Toreless, On 11/20/2018 4:34 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > IMHO, "Traffic Engineering" will be worse than "Transport": FWIW David Black - suggested that "Transport Network" as another alternative. > - Makes more important people confused > > IMHO, the mayor group of people (rightfully) confused by the term "Transport" > in the DetNet context are IETF apps and transport area people, and > quite frankly, thats not the primary reader constituency of DetNet > documents. Network operators / vendors / TSN members / TSN solutoin > devenlopers, > aka: the primary reader consitutency for DetNet documents will > IMHO be less confused by "Transport" than by "Traffic Engineering". > > - Creates even more inconsistent confusion > > IMHO, Differnt confused people will even more likely assume through > name recognition a lot more different functions into "Traffic > Engineering". (TE means RSVP-TE, oh no, TE means network planning, > TE can not mean QoS, TE is jut admission control, no TE needs to be > per-hop, yada yada yada). > > I am not arguing for keeping Transport, i am just more worried about > "Traffic Engineering" than "Transport". I think a uniue new term without > name recognition and resulting confusion would be best. > > Maybe form a new term from key words like the following, eg.: > > DetNet Flow SubNetwork Encapsulation and Adaption Layer (DF-SEAL) > I personally think we have enough terms and should go with "DetNet TE Sub-Layer", "DetNet TE Network Sub-Layer", or  "DetNet Transport Network Sub-Layer" Lou > Cheers > Toerless > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 04:10:58PM -0500, Lou Berger wrote: >> On 11/20/2018 3:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >>> This terminology is certainly appropriate for TEAS. For DetNet, this >>> seems to make the assertion that the DetNet underlay is always >>> traffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv6 (which is certainly possible >>> using TE extensions for the IGPs). >> This is certainly a fair point and one that does lead me to have a slight >> reservation about the change, that said, it seems the benefit out ways the >> downsides. >> >>> As long as people are OK with this assertion, then I'm OK with it as >>> well. That should be made clear in the architecture spec where the term >>> "DetNet TE sub-layer" is introduced/defined. >> agreed. >> >> Lou >> >>> Cheers, >>> Andy >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:29 PM Grossman, Ethan A. >> > wrote: >>> >>> I like it. >>> Ethan. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:27 AM >>> To: Lou Berger >; >>> Scharf, Michael >> > >>> Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; >>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org >>> >>> Subject: RE: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] >>> Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) >>> >>> I support this change; >>> >>> Pascal >>> >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: Lou Berger > >>> > Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 19:19 >>> > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >> >; Scharf, Michael >>> > >> > >>> > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; >>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org >>> >>> > Subject: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] >>> Tsvart last >>> > call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) >>> > >>> > ALL, >>> > >>> > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the DetNet >>> > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport protocols. >>> > >>> > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced >>> "Transport" >>> > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". >>> > >>> > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this change? >>> > >>> > To be clear, the suggestion is: >>> > >>> > OLD >>> > >>> >                     . >>> >                     . >>> >       +----------------------------+ >>> >       |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE >>> >       +----------------------------+ >>> >       | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, >>> MPLS SR >>> >       +----------------------------+ >>> >                     . >>> >                     . >>> > >>> >                   Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane >>> > >>> > NEW >>> > >>> >                     . >>> >                     . >>> >       +----------------------------+ >>> >       |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE >>> >       +----------------------------+ >>> >       |      DetNet TE sub-layer   | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, >>> MPLS SR >>> >       +----------------------------+ >>> >                     . >>> >                     . >>> > >>> >                   Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane >>> > >>> > Lou >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > From nobody Tue Nov 20 23:58:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BB3D130EDD; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 23:58:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kv5moXHvmIyj; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 23:58:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8D77127332; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 23:58:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 911C86FCC1383; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 07:58:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEML424-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.41) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 07:58:23 +0000 Received: from DGGEML510-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.55]) by dggeml424-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.41]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:58:18 +0800 From: Mach Chen To: Lou Berger , Toerless Eckert CC: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Andrew G. Malis" , "Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de" , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" , "Grossman, Ethan A." , detnet WG Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) Thread-Index: AQHUgP7UbsXBmE7vJk+d445Hh+cF66VYdaaAgAAcwQCAABCPAIAABooAgAAQtICAARwnUA== Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 07:58:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> <20181120213422.6zitt6iqhd5rmb6k@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.194.201] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 07:58:30 -0000 SGksDQoNCkkgdGhpbmsgIkRldE5ldCBURSBTdWItTGF5ZXIiIGlzIGdvb2QgbmFtZSwgYmVjYXVz ZSBvbmUgb2YgdGhlIGdvYWxzIG9mIERldE5ldCBpcyB0byBwcm92aWRlIGJvdW5kZWQgbGF0ZW5j eSwgdG8gYWNoaWV2ZSB0aGF0LCBkZWRpY2F0ZWQgcmVzb3VyY2UgKGJhbmR3aWR0aCwgYnVmZmVy KSBoYXMgdG8gYmUgcmVzZXJ2ZWQsIGV4cGxpY2l0IHJvdXRpbmcgbWF5IGJlIHJlcXVpcmVkLCB0 aGVzZSBhcmUgdHlwaWNhbCBiZWhhdmlvcnMgb2YgVHJhZmZpYyBFbmdpbmVlcmluZy4gDQoNCkkg dXNlZCB0byB0aGluayB0aGF0ICJEZXROZXQgVEUgVHVubmVsIFN1Yi1MYXllciIgaXMgYW4gYXBw cm9wcmlhdGUgbmFtZSwgZ2l2ZW4gdGhhdCBEZXROZXQgbGlrZXMgYW4gb3ZlcmxheSBtb2RlbCwg 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XCH-RCD-003.cisco.com (xch-rcd-003.cisco.com [173.37.102.13]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id wAL9P0bK010766 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:25:00 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-003.cisco.com (173.37.102.13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 03:24:59 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 03:24:59 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Toerless Eckert , Lou Berger CC: "Andrew G. Malis" , "Grossman, Ethan A." , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" , detnet WG , "Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) Thread-Index: AQHUgQ1JsrG+4X8OMUqMJlZTq/lAV6VZjYsAgAAGiQCAAF9ToA== Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:24:43 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:23:51 +0000 Message-ID: <1df393bb6dac420d80f2f1a17a0f1b20@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> <20181120213422.6zitt6iqhd5rmb6k@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <20181120213422.6zitt6iqhd5rmb6k@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.228.216.24] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.13, xch-rcd-003.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-5.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:25:10 -0000 Sorry Toerless I cannot buy " quite frankly, thats not the primary reader c= onstituency of DetNet".=20 We already face huge confusion in the current discussion in the ML. We do d= iscuss Transport on the ML if only to decide what needs to be done in-house= vs. elsewhere (in Transport Area) for a complete solution. And then we'll = have our docs reviewed by the IESG for every publication request. We could keep the word transport if we hide it well in an acronym that no o= ne ever expands in the discussions (like MPLS). With David's suggestion tha= t would be DTN, DetNet Transport Network. Sadly DTN is already taken at the= IETF. Maybe DTNS with Service included : ) Otherwise using the word "transport" for an alternate meaning than layer-4 = is really harmful to the discussions and publications. Note that we decided to work only on centralized solutions, with a controll= er that allocates resources along a "path". So the "path" we build is effec= tively TE. This is why I supported Lou's suggestion. All the best; Pascal > -----Original Message----- > From: Toerless Eckert > Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 22:34 > To: Lou Berger > Cc: Andrew G. Malis ; Grossman, Ethan A. > ; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; Pascal > Thubert (pthubert) ; detnet WG ; > Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart las= t > call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) >=20 > IMHO, "Traffic Engineering" will be worse than "Transport": >=20 > - Makes more important people confused >=20 > IMHO, the mayor group of people (rightfully) confused by the term > "Transport" > in the DetNet context are IETF apps and transport area people, and > quite frankly, thats not the primary reader constituency of DetNet > documents. Network operators / vendors / TSN members / TSN solutoin > devenlopers, aka: the primary reader consitutency for DetNet documents = will > IMHO be less confused by "Transport" than by "Traffic Engineering". >=20 > - Creates even more inconsistent confusion >=20 > IMHO, Differnt confused people will even more likely assume through > name recognition a lot more different functions into "Traffic > Engineering". (TE means RSVP-TE, oh no, TE means network planning, > TE can not mean QoS, TE is jut admission control, no TE needs to be > per-hop, yada yada yada). >=20 > I am not arguing for keeping Transport, i am just more worried about "Tra= ffic > Engineering" than "Transport". I think a uniue new term without name > recognition and resulting confusion would be best. >=20 > Maybe form a new term from key words like the following, eg.: >=20 > DetNet Flow SubNetwork Encapsulation and Adaption Layer (DF-SEAL) >=20 > Cheers > Toerless >=20 > On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 04:10:58PM -0500, Lou Berger wrote: > > > > On 11/20/2018 3:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > > This terminology is certainly appropriate for TEAS. For DetNet, this > > > seems to make the assertion that the DetNet underlay is always > > > traffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv6 (which is certainly > > > possible using TE extensions for the IGPs). > > > > This is certainly a fair point and one that does lead me to have a > > slight reservation about the change, that said, it seems the benefit > > out ways the downsides. > > > > > > > > As long as people are OK with this assertion, then I'm OK with it as > > > well. That should be made clear in the architecture spec where the > > > term "DetNet TE sub-layer" is introduced/defined. > > > > agreed. > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Andy > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:29 PM Grossman, Ethan A. > > > wrote: > > > > > > I like it. > > > Ethan. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:27 AM > > > To: Lou Berger >; > > > Scharf, Michael > > > > > > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; > > > draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > > > Subject: RE: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] > > > Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > > > > > > I support this change; > > > > > > Pascal > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Lou Berger > > > > > Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 19:19 > > > > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > >; Scharf, Michael > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; > > > draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > > > > Subject: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] > > > Tsvart last > > > > call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > > > > > > > > ALL, > > > > > > > > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the DetN= et > > > > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport protoc= ols. > > > > > > > > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced > > > "Transport" > > > > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". > > > > > > > > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this chang= e? > > > > > > > > To be clear, the suggestion is: > > > > > > > > OLD > > > > > > > >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 . > > > >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 . > > > >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 +----------------------------+ > > > >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 |=A0 DetNet Service sub-layer=A0 | PW, UDP, GRE > > > >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 +----------------------------+ > > > >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS= TE LSPs, > > > MPLS SR > > > >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 +----------------------------+ > > > >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 . > > > >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 . > > > > > > > >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Figure 4: D= etNet adaptation to data plane > > > > > > > > NEW > > > > > > > >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 . > > > >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 . > > > >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 +----------------------------+ > > > >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 |=A0 DetNet Service sub-layer=A0 | PW, UDP, GRE > > > >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 +----------------------------+ > > > >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 |=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 DetNet TE sub-layer =A0 | IPv6= , IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, > > > MPLS SR > > > >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 +----------------------------+ > > > >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 . > > > >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 . > > > > > > > >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Figure 4: D= etNet adaptation to data plane > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Wed Nov 21 03:13:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7DD712F1A2; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 03:13:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EaDATmWh51Jf; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 03:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C01C81292AD; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 03:13:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.20] (unknown [119.94.172.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7F64418029FB; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 12:13:33 +0100 (CET) To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Lou Berger Cc: "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" , detnet WG References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> <20181120213422.6zitt6iqhd5rmb6k@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <1df393bb6dac420d80f2f1a17a0f1b20@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: <240c252e-f72a-ac88-0004-536916aeca1e@pi.nu> Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:13:30 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1df393bb6dac420d80f2f1a17a0f1b20@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:13:41 -0000 Folks, I think we have encountered this before, at these times we either talked about "Layer 2 Transport (L2 Transport)" or "Transport Network", fwiw that would work here also. But otoh I could live with "DetNet TE Sub-Layer", the small caveat is that that implies we are talking about a Sub-Layer of DetNet, rather than an independent transport network. /Loa On 2018-11-21 17:24, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > Sorry Toerless I cannot buy " quite frankly, thats not the primary reader constituency of DetNet". > > We already face huge confusion in the current discussion in the ML. We do discuss Transport on the ML if only to decide what needs to be done in-house vs. elsewhere (in Transport Area) for a complete solution. And then we'll have our docs reviewed by the IESG for every publication request. > > We could keep the word transport if we hide it well in an acronym that no one ever expands in the discussions (like MPLS). With David's suggestion that would be DTN, DetNet Transport Network. Sadly DTN is already taken at the IETF. Maybe DTNS with Service included : ) > > Otherwise using the word "transport" for an alternate meaning than layer-4 is really harmful to the discussions and publications. > Note that we decided to work only on centralized solutions, with a controller that allocates resources along a "path". So the "path" we build is effectively TE. This is why I supported Lou's suggestion. > > All the best; > > Pascal > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Toerless Eckert >> Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 22:34 >> To: Lou Berger >> Cc: Andrew G. Malis ; Grossman, Ethan A. >> ; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; Pascal >> Thubert (pthubert) ; detnet WG ; >> Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last >> call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) >> >> IMHO, "Traffic Engineering" will be worse than "Transport": >> >> - Makes more important people confused >> >> IMHO, the mayor group of people (rightfully) confused by the term >> "Transport" >> in the DetNet context are IETF apps and transport area people, and >> quite frankly, thats not the primary reader constituency of DetNet >> documents. Network operators / vendors / TSN members / TSN solutoin >> devenlopers, aka: the primary reader consitutency for DetNet documents will >> IMHO be less confused by "Transport" than by "Traffic Engineering". >> >> - Creates even more inconsistent confusion >> >> IMHO, Differnt confused people will even more likely assume through >> name recognition a lot more different functions into "Traffic >> Engineering". (TE means RSVP-TE, oh no, TE means network planning, >> TE can not mean QoS, TE is jut admission control, no TE needs to be >> per-hop, yada yada yada). >> >> I am not arguing for keeping Transport, i am just more worried about "Traffic >> Engineering" than "Transport". I think a uniue new term without name >> recognition and resulting confusion would be best. >> >> Maybe form a new term from key words like the following, eg.: >> >> DetNet Flow SubNetwork Encapsulation and Adaption Layer (DF-SEAL) >> >> Cheers >> Toerless >> >> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 04:10:58PM -0500, Lou Berger wrote: >>> >>> On 11/20/2018 3:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >>>> This terminology is certainly appropriate for TEAS. For DetNet, this >>>> seems to make the assertion that the DetNet underlay is always >>>> traffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv6 (which is certainly >>>> possible using TE extensions for the IGPs). >>> >>> This is certainly a fair point and one that does lead me to have a >>> slight reservation about the change, that said, it seems the benefit >>> out ways the downsides. >>> >>>> >>>> As long as people are OK with this assertion, then I'm OK with it as >>>> well. That should be made clear in the architecture spec where the >>>> term "DetNet TE sub-layer" is introduced/defined. >>> >>> agreed. >>> >>> Lou >>> >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:29 PM Grossman, Ethan A. >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I like it. >>>> Ethan. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:27 AM >>>> To: Lou Berger >; >>>> Scharf, Michael >>> > >>>> Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; >>>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org >>>> >>>> Subject: RE: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] >>>> Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) >>>> >>>> I support this change; >>>> >>>> Pascal >>>> >>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>> > From: Lou Berger > >>>> > Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 19:19 >>>> > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>> >; Scharf, Michael >>>> > >>> > >>>> > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; >>>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org >>>> >>>> > Subject: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] >>>> Tsvart last >>>> > call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) >>>> > >>>> > ALL, >>>> > >>>> > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the DetNet >>>> > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport protocols. >>>> > >>>> > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced >>>> "Transport" >>>> > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". >>>> > >>>> > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this change? >>>> > >>>> > To be clear, the suggestion is: >>>> > >>>> > OLD >>>> > >>>> >                     . >>>> >                     . >>>> >       +----------------------------+ >>>> >       |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE >>>> >       +----------------------------+ >>>> >       | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, >>>> MPLS SR >>>> >       +----------------------------+ >>>> >                     . >>>> >                     . >>>> > >>>> >                   Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane >>>> > >>>> > NEW >>>> > >>>> >                     . >>>> >                     . >>>> >       +----------------------------+ >>>> >       |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE >>>> >       +----------------------------+ >>>> >       |      DetNet TE sub-layer   | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, >>>> MPLS SR >>>> >       +----------------------------+ >>>> >                     . >>>> >                     . >>>> > >>>> >                   Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane >>>> > >>>> > Lou >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > -- Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu Senior MPLS Expert Bronze Dragon Consulting phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Wed Nov 21 08:56:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13FAC128AFB; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 08:56:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0-rDwLWUV9hX; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 08:56:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 15CE7123FFD; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 08:56:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id AADC5548028; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:56:08 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 95B47440210; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:56:08 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:56:08 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Lou Berger Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Andrew G. Malis" , Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de, draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org, "Grossman, Ethan A." , detnet WG Message-ID: <20181121165608.z7zpoh72jdnf4ybm@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> <20181120213422.6zitt6iqhd5rmb6k@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 16:56:17 -0000 Thanks, Lou, inline On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 05:34:09PM -0500, Lou Berger wrote: > > I am not arguing for keeping Transport, i am just more worried about > > "Traffic Engineering" than "Transport". I think a uniue new term without > > name recognition and resulting confusion would be best. > > > > Maybe form a new term from key words like the following, eg.: > > > > DetNet Flow SubNetwork Encapsulation and Adaption Layer (DF-SEAL) > > > I personally think we have enough terms and should go with "DetNet TE > Sub-Layer", "DetNet TE Network Sub-Layer", or "DetNet Transport Network > Sub-Layer" AFAIK, TE classically does include protection, such as in RSVP-TE. Yet in DetNet, protection is specifically part of the service sub-layer, and arguably you probably won't want to reuse pre-existing protection mechanism of the transport/TE sub-layer without a lot of further design considerations if you're using the DetNet Service sub-layer protection, so that TE/transport sub-layer is not really doing full TE. Toerless > Lou > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 04:10:58PM -0500, Lou Berger wrote: > > > On 11/20/2018 3:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > > > This terminology is certainly appropriate for TEAS. For DetNet, this > > > > seems to make the assertion that the DetNet underlay is always > > > > traffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv6 (which is certainly possible > > > > using TE extensions for the IGPs). > > > This is certainly a fair point and one that does lead me to have a slight > > > reservation about the change, that said, it seems the benefit out ways the > > > downsides. > > > > > > > As long as people are OK with this assertion, then I'm OK with it as > > > > well. That should be made clear in the architecture spec where the term > > > > "DetNet TE sub-layer" is introduced/defined. > > > agreed. > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:29 PM Grossman, Ethan A. > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I like it. > > > > Ethan. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:27 AM > > > > To: Lou Berger >; > > > > Scharf, Michael > > > > > > > > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; > > > > draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] > > > > Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > > > > > > > > I support this change; > > > > > > > > Pascal > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Lou Berger > > > > > > Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 19:19 > > > > > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > > >; Scharf, Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; > > > > draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > > > > > > Subject: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] > > > > Tsvart last > > > > > call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > > > > > > > > > > ALL, > > > > > > > > > > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the DetNet > > > > > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport protocols. > > > > > > > > > > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced > > > > "Transport" > > > > > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". > > > > > > > > > > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this change? > > > > > > > > > > To be clear, the suggestion is: > > > > > > > > > > OLD > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > . > > > > > +----------------------------+ > > > > > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE > > > > > +----------------------------+ > > > > > | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, > > > > MPLS SR > > > > > +----------------------------+ > > > > > . > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > > > > > > > > > NEW > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > . > > > > > +----------------------------+ > > > > > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE > > > > > +----------------------------+ > > > > > | DetNet TE sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, > > > > MPLS SR > > > > > +----------------------------+ > > > > > . > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > detnet mailing list > > > detnet@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Wed Nov 21 09:19:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91ADF130F05 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:18:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jVkLwR1yGEj4 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:18:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy10-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy10-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.20.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D32B412D4F2 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:18:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw14.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.14]) by gproxy10.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A1F6140446 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:18:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id PW9LgPMSVvdTuPW9LgfdVd; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:18:51 -0700 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=P7p4HQ9HQGxnMymG8GkaZuB2vdNYR9Yyf8gARzgLMn8=; b=ZQlLTBmTrM+EkjQt2FBJHx/GVg TDXwTkwLkKbaHbXBQExz5x8h2O+CW4EAEjl7OmtKVVnraZkjc3SqxkcfJh/HzJTITVDiwPqss7gxz uWvOMB1HzpUSId6yc/GVFXVBX; Received: from pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.106.211]:32780 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gPW9L-000jCZ-Ix; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:18:51 -0700 To: Toerless Eckert Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Andrew G. Malis" , Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de, draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org, "Grossman, Ethan A." , detnet WG References: <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> <20181120213422.6zitt6iqhd5rmb6k@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20181121165608.z7zpoh72jdnf4ybm@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 12:18:50 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181121165608.z7zpoh72jdnf4ybm@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.106.211 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gPW9L-000jCZ-Ix X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-106-211.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.106.211]:32780 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 10 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:19:00 -0000 On 11/21/2018 11:56 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > Thanks, Lou, inline > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 05:34:09PM -0500, Lou Berger wrote: >>> I am not arguing for keeping Transport, i am just more worried about >>> "Traffic Engineering" than "Transport". I think a uniue new term without >>> name recognition and resulting confusion would be best. >>> >>> Maybe form a new term from key words like the following, eg.: >>> >>> DetNet Flow SubNetwork Encapsulation and Adaption Layer (DF-SEAL) >>> >> I personally think we have enough terms and should go with "DetNet TE >> Sub-Layer", "DetNet TE Network Sub-Layer", or  "DetNet Transport Network >> Sub-Layer" > AFAIK, TE classically does include protection, such as in RSVP-TE. Yet > in DetNet, protection is specifically part of the service sub-layer, > and arguably you probably won't want to reuse pre-existing protection > mechanism of the transport/TE sub-layer without a lot of further design > considerations if you're using the DetNet Service sub-layer > protection, so that TE/transport sub-layer is not really doing full TE. If a TE/Transport Network sub-layer includes sufficient protection mechanisms, I'm not sure why we would not make use of it.  This is exactly what is planned for IP over) TSN for example. Now you can certainly argue that TSN is below the DetNet TE layer, but I think the point still holds. BTW I think DetNet's service/TE split is very similar to what we have in RFC5921, but in a less MPLS-centric form. Lou > > Toerless > >> Lou >> >>> Cheers >>> Toerless >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 04:10:58PM -0500, Lou Berger wrote: >>>> On 11/20/2018 3:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >>>>> This terminology is certainly appropriate for TEAS. For DetNet, this >>>>> seems to make the assertion that the DetNet underlay is always >>>>> traffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv6 (which is certainly possible >>>>> using TE extensions for the IGPs). >>>> This is certainly a fair point and one that does lead me to have a slight >>>> reservation about the change, that said, it seems the benefit out ways the >>>> downsides. >>>> >>>>> As long as people are OK with this assertion, then I'm OK with it as >>>>> well. That should be made clear in the architecture spec where the term >>>>> "DetNet TE sub-layer" is introduced/defined. >>>> agreed. >>>> >>>> Lou >>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:29 PM Grossman, Ethan A. >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I like it. >>>>> Ethan. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>>> > >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:27 AM >>>>> To: Lou Berger >; >>>>> Scharf, Michael >>>> > >>>>> Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; >>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org >>>>> >>>>> Subject: RE: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] >>>>> Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) >>>>> >>>>> I support this change; >>>>> >>>>> Pascal >>>>> >>>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>>> > From: Lou Berger > >>>>> > Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 19:19 >>>>> > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>>> >; Scharf, Michael >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; >>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org >>>>> >>>>> > Subject: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] >>>>> Tsvart last >>>>> > call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) >>>>> > >>>>> > ALL, >>>>> > >>>>> > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the DetNet >>>>> > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport protocols. >>>>> > >>>>> > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced >>>>> "Transport" >>>>> > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". >>>>> > >>>>> > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this change? >>>>> > >>>>> > To be clear, the suggestion is: >>>>> > >>>>> > OLD >>>>> > >>>>> >                     . >>>>> >                     . >>>>> >       +----------------------------+ >>>>> >       |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE >>>>> >       +----------------------------+ >>>>> >       | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, >>>>> MPLS SR >>>>> >       +----------------------------+ >>>>> >                     . >>>>> >                     . >>>>> > >>>>> >                   Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane >>>>> > >>>>> > NEW >>>>> > >>>>> >                     . >>>>> >                     . >>>>> >       +----------------------------+ >>>>> >       |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE >>>>> >       +----------------------------+ >>>>> >       |      DetNet TE sub-layer   | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, >>>>> MPLS SR >>>>> >       +----------------------------+ >>>>> >                     . >>>>> >                     . >>>>> > >>>>> >                   Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane >>>>> > >>>>> > Lou >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> detnet mailing list >>>> detnet@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > From nobody Thu Nov 22 16:05:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5AA7130DCF; Thu, 22 Nov 2018 16:05:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vHI-7BG7ewu8; Thu, 22 Nov 2018 16:05:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22B46124D68; Thu, 22 Nov 2018 16:05:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0133254801F; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 01:05:04 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id DBB90440210; Fri, 23 Nov 2018 01:05:04 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 01:05:04 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Lou Berger Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Andrew G. Malis" , Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de, draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org, "Grossman, Ethan A." , detnet WG Message-ID: <20181123000504.sxdfqtfyvikaos4i@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> <20181120213422.6zitt6iqhd5rmb6k@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20181121165608.z7zpoh72jdnf4ybm@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 00:05:14 -0000 On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 12:18:50PM -0500, Lou Berger wrote: > If a TE/Transport Network sub-layer includes sufficient protection > mechanisms, I'm not sure why we would not make use of it. This is exactly > what is planned for IP over) TSN for example. Now you can certainly argue > that TSN is below the DetNet TE layer, but I think the point still holds. Sure, and TSN dual-path redundancy is sufficient for DetNet, whereas pre-existing RSVP-TE FRR is arguably not. But that same "TE" protection is also available at the DetNet service layer. Hence the confusion that would occur if we would call the "transport" layer now the "TE" layer (IMHO). Aka: DetNet TE functions are not a sole property of the DetNet "transport" layer. > BTW I think DetNet's service/TE split is very similar to what we have in > RFC5921, but in a less MPLS-centric form. Not sure which specific terms/layers in rfc5921 you're referring to. It does extensively ue the word "transport" though ;-)) Cheers Toerless > Lou > > > > > Toerless > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 04:10:58PM -0500, Lou Berger wrote: > > > > > On 11/20/2018 3:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > > > > > This terminology is certainly appropriate for TEAS. For DetNet, this > > > > > > seems to make the assertion that the DetNet underlay is always > > > > > > traffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv6 (which is certainly possible > > > > > > using TE extensions for the IGPs). > > > > > This is certainly a fair point and one that does lead me to have a slight > > > > > reservation about the change, that said, it seems the benefit out ways the > > > > > downsides. > > > > > > > > > > > As long as people are OK with this assertion, then I'm OK with it as > > > > > > well. That should be made clear in the architecture spec where the term > > > > > > "DetNet TE sub-layer" is introduced/defined. > > > > > agreed. > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:29 PM Grossman, Ethan A. > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I like it. > > > > > > Ethan. > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:27 AM > > > > > > To: Lou Berger >; > > > > > > Scharf, Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; > > > > > > draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] > > > > > > Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > > > > > > > > > > > > I support this change; > > > > > > > > > > > > Pascal > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: Lou Berger > > > > > > > > Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 19:19 > > > > > > > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > > > > >; Scharf, Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; > > > > > > draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] > > > > > > Tsvart last > > > > > > > call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ALL, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the DetNet > > > > > > > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport protocols. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced > > > > > > "Transport" > > > > > > > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this change? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To be clear, the suggestion is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OLD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > +----------------------------+ > > > > > > > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE > > > > > > > +----------------------------+ > > > > > > > | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, > > > > > > MPLS SR > > > > > > > +----------------------------+ > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NEW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > +----------------------------+ > > > > > > > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE > > > > > > > +----------------------------+ > > > > > > > | DetNet TE sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, > > > > > > MPLS SR > > > > > > > +----------------------------+ > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > detnet mailing list > > > > > detnet@ietf.org > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > detnet mailing list > > > > detnet@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > detnet mailing list > > > detnet@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Tue Nov 27 14:24:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E59C12D4ED; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:24:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DTgrHEQERlo0; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:24:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from dggwg11-dlp.huawei.com (lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com [185.176.76.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 891F212870E; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:24:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrpml402-hub.exmail.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.66]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 5B9C6A84DB92D57D3405; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 22:24:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHRPML504-MBX.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.5.41]) by lhrpml402-hub.exmail.huawei.com ([10.201.4.206]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 22:24:04 +0000 From: Norman Finn To: Lou Berger , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Scharf, Michael" CC: "detnet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) Thread-Index: AQHUgP3+8hQm3KB+a0SBc/AGJBk7hKVkPaUo Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 22:24:04 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F80171FFDF@lhrpml504-mbx.exmail.huawei.com> References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com>, <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.7.94] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 22:24:14 -0000 I don't think it's ideal, but I have no better suggestion. OK.=0A= =0A= -- Norm=0A= =0A= ________________________________________=0A= From: Lou Berger [lberger@labn.net]=0A= Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:18 AM=0A= To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert); Scharf, Michael=0A= Cc: detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org=0A= Subject: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last call= review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08)=0A= =0A= ALL,=0A= =0A= There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the DetNet=0A= Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport protocols.=0A= =0A= In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced "Transport"=0A= with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ".=0A= =0A= While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this change?=0A= =0A= To be clear, the suggestion is:=0A= =0A= OLD=0A= =0A= .=0A= .=0A= +----------------------------+=0A= |=A0 DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE=0A= +----------------------------+=0A= | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, MPLS SR=0A= +----------------------------+=0A= .=0A= .=0A= =0A= Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane=0A= =0A= NEW=0A= =0A= .=0A= .=0A= +----------------------------+=0A= |=A0 DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE=0A= +----------------------------+=0A= |=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 DetNet TE sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, MP= LS SR=0A= +----------------------------+=0A= .=0A= .=0A= =0A= Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane=0A= =0A= Lou=0A= =0A= On 11/20/2018 11:21 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:=0A= > Hello Lou:=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > About ' discuss changing the name of the "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to= avoid the word "transport". '=0A= >=0A= > For one I'd like to make that call. The unfortunate name collision has st= arted to hurt us quite a bit already and people are getting confused on ver= y active exchanges we have on the mailing list.=0A= >=0A= > I tend to agree that for the general IETF "transport" generally means "L4= ". Even point one in your email uses "transport" that way I guess. Sadly ma= ny alternate names are highly overloaded already (think "carrier" for insta= nce, or "bus"). I like the term "train" because of the association with a s= chedule, but that's just me.=0A= >=0A= > Same goes actually for the complex path that we build. That complex path = can be an elongated DODAG with multiple PREOF points. Usual terms like "cir= cuit" or "path" fail to capture that complexity. 6TiSCH found the term "Tra= ck" to refer to it.=0A= >=0A= > Would you push that discussion to the ML?=0A= >=0A= > Take care,=0A= >=0A= > Pascal=0A= >=0A= >> -----Original Message-----=0A= >> From: Lou Berger =0A= >> Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 13:11=0A= >> To: Scharf, Michael =0A= >> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet-=0A= >> architecture.all@ietf.org=0A= >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-archi= tecture-08=0A= >>=0A= >> Michael,=0A= >>=0A= >> I think we're getting somewhere and identifying where we have disconnect= s=0A= >> and what may (and what may not) need to change in the document. My=0A= >> takeaways are:=0A= >>=0A= >> - The document needs a good 'scrub' of the congestion related references= to=0A= >> ensure that the document only makes statements on what is actually done= =0A= >> within a DetNet and the relationship with transport protocols that use d= etnet=0A= >> (which are in fact outside the scope of the DetNet WG). I'll work with = the=0A= >> authors and WG on this -- I see this change as important, but editorial = in=0A= >> nature.=0A= >>=0A= >> - We have a perception issue with at least one member of the TSV area on= the=0A= >> meaning and more importantly, implication, of the term "DetNet=0A= >> *Transport* sub-layer". While I don't disagree that a good portion of t= he IETF=0A= >> thinks transport protocol (UDP/TCP) when they hear "transport"=0A= >> there are plenty others, particularly in the routing area, who understan= d that=0A= >> "transport" can refer to Transport Networks. And Transport Network is a= well=0A= >> understood general industry term. The IETF even has a bunch of RFCs that= =0A= >> relate to Transport networks. This said, I think it reasonable to go ba= ck to the=0A= >> DetNet WG and discuss changing the name of the "DetNet Transport sub-=0A= >> layer"=A0 to avoid the word "transport". -- BTW we made a parallel chan= ge in=0A= >> the TEAS WG when producing RFC8453.=0A= >>=0A= >> See below for detail response in-line.=0A= >>=0A= >> On 11/19/2018 5:15 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote:=0A= >>> Lou,=0A= >>>=0A= >>>> --=0A= >>>> I wanted to take a step back from the multiple discussions that were= =0A= >>>> spawned by your review -- from a doc shepherd perspective, and see=0A= >>>> where we are. I know that the authors have sent a -09 version that= =0A= >>>> addresses some, but not all issues.=0A= >>>>=0A= >>>> From the exchanges I've seen, I think the key remaining issues are= =0A= >>>> related to:=0A= >>>>=0A= >>>> (a) possibly introduction of congestion in the general internet if=0A= >>>> packets were somehow to escape a detnet domain. The source of this=0A= >>>> congestion would be inelastic traffic using DetNet or due to=0A= >>>> congestion loss that is masked by PREOF.=0A= >>> These are two major issues that need to be addressed. Note that it may = not=0A= >> be sufficient just to add a section on operational and deployment=0A= >> considerations. Also the existing text in the document will need to get = aligned=0A= >> to normative guidance on how to avoid a congestion collapse.=0A= >>> In -09, one example would be Section 3.1. "Primary goals defining the= =0A= >> DetNet QoS"=0A= >>> Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along the p= ath=0A= >>> of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. Congestio= n=0A= >>> protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, packet lo= ss=0A= >>> due to output packet congestion within the network, but it can onl= y=0A= >>> be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to a=0A= >>> maximum packet size and transmission rate. Note that congestion= =0A= >>> protection provided via congestion detection and notification is= =0A= >>> explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it serves a= =0A= >>> different set of applications.=0A= >>> At least the last sentence would contradict a better discussion of cong= estion=0A= >> in the document. For instance, it could just be removed. In any case, th= e=0A= >> current wording in the last sentence is not correct, as the IETF term fo= r what is=0A= >> described in the last sentence is "congestion control".=0A= >>> Another example would be Section 3.2.1.1. "Eliminate congestion loss"= =0A= >>>=0A= >>> The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS assurances is t= o=0A= >>> reduce, or even completely eliminate, congestion within a DetNet n= ode=0A= >>> as a cause of packet loss. This can be achieved only by the=0A= >>> provision of sufficient buffer storage at each node through the=0A= >>> network to ensure that no packets are dropped due to a lack of buf= fer=0A= >>> storage. Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled, i.e., its= =0A= >>> transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion=0A= >>> notification.=0A= >>>=0A= >>> This section IMHO has to include a discussion of what happens in the (n= ot=0A= >> expected) case that packets get dropped or that ECN marks are received. = It is=0A= >> understood that this would not happen in normal operation of a DetNet=0A= >> network, but I believe just considering the error-free operation of a De= tNet=0A= >> network is not sufficient for this document. At least for the risk of tr= affic that=0A= >> may escape from a DetNet network is inherently not sufficient to assume = that=0A= >> the DetNet network is always error-free.=0A= >>=0A= >> I think these are examples of text that needs to be cleanup up and to=0A= >> delineate what is done with a DetNet.=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >>> As a result, addressing my concerns will most likely require editing se= veral=0A= >> parts of the document.=0A= >>> In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review comment "It is surpri= sing=0A= >> that there is hardly any discussion on network robustness and safety"=0A= >>=0A= >> I have no idea what you mean by safety here. Can you elaborate.=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >>> covers more than just inelastic traffic that escapes from a DetNet netw= ork=0A= >> and masking of packet loss. Given that DetNet traffic may be extremely c= ritical=0A= >> traffic, I really wonder why the document doesn't emphasize more the=0A= >> required robustness against failures *inside* the DetNet network as well= as=0A= >> counter-measures. But this is something the WG needs to decide. As TSV-A= RT=0A= >> reviewer, I will be fine if the document clearly describes how the impac= t of=0A= >> failures will be isolated inside the DetNet network and will not put the= general=0A= >> Internet at risk.=0A= >>=0A= >> I agree - I think, the document should be clear on it's scope and=0A= >> relationship to general internet usage.=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >>>> (b) The use of the term 'transport' in DetNet to refer to what is=0A= >>>> basically a Traffic Engineered sub-network layer, such as is provided= =0A= >>>> with MPLS-TE or Optical Transport Networks.=0A= >>> In the Internet architecture, the term 'transport' refers to Internet t= ransport=0A= >> protocols. I doubt that the document can avoid discussing the implicatio= ns of=0A= >> and interactions with Internet transport protocols such as UDP or TCP. A= s a=0A= >> result, I disagree that the document can use the term 'transport' to ref= er to=0A= >> traffic engineered sub-network layers.=0A= >>=0A= >> I think this is covered by my comment above.=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >>> From a TSV-ART point of view, the document can either only use the te= rm=0A= >> "transport" for Internet transport protocols and use another term for su= b-=0A= >> network layers (as handled in the *routing* area of the IETF), or the do= cument=0A= >> has to clearly distinguish between the Internet transport layer and othe= r uses=0A= >> of the term "transport" and explain the overlap. I believe the former wo= uld be=0A= >> less confusing, but I will leave it up to the TSV ADs to discuss termino= logy=0A= >> overlap in the IESG. As TSV-ART reviewer I insist that the document uses= the=0A= >> terms "transport layer" and "transport protocol" only when referring to = the=0A= >> Internet transport layer.=0A= >>=0A= >> I'm personally okay with a name change and even willing to push this=0A= >> discussion within the WG, but as said above, "Transport Network" is a=0A= >> generally understood industry term that is also used in RFCs -- so we'll= =0A= >> have to see what where WG consensus ends up.=0A= >>=0A= >>>> Do you have any other issues that that are critical to be addressed=0A= >>>> before this work moves forward? If so which?=0A= >>> Regarding Section 4.4 I have already deferred the discussion to the IES= G. The=0A= >> TSV-ART review comment is that the IESG needs to carefully look at the= =0A= >> concepts, terminology, and references in section 4.4.=0A= >>> Regarding my other comments, I acknowledge that -09 is a step forward. = But=0A= >> given the cross-dependencies e.g. regarding terminology and definitions,= I will=0A= >> need to read the text completely once there is a proposal how to address= my=0A= >> review. As noted in my review, I believe the document must use terminolo= gy=0A= >> clearly and consistently. As example, a statement in -09 such as "Networ= k=0A= >> nodes supporting DetNet flows have to implement some of the DetNet=0A= >> capabilities (not necessarily all) in order to treat DetNet flows such t= hat their=0A= >> QoS requirements are met" is IMHO too vague. But in such cases it depend= s=0A= >> whether there is precise normative guidance elsewhere. And this requires= =0A= >> looking at the text as a whole.=0A= >>=0A= >> I think the next steps lie with me and the WG. We'll let you know once= =0A= >> there is a new version. Of course, you can also contribute to the WG=0A= >> discussion on the topic.=0A= >>=0A= >> Thanks,=0A= >>=0A= >> Lou=0A= >>=0A= >>> Best regards=0A= >>>=0A= >>> Michael=0A= >>>=0A= >>>=0A= >>>=0A= >>>> Thank you,=0A= >>>>=0A= >>>> Lou=0A= >>>>=0A= >>>> On 9/28/2018 6:24 PM, Michael Scharf wrote:=0A= >>>>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf=0A= >>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture"=0A= >>>>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall framework for= =0A= >>>>> Deterministic Networking.=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues as=0A= >>>> detailed below.=0A= >>>>> Michael=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> Major issues:=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> * It seems that DetNet cannot easily be deployed in the Internet=0A= >>>> without=0A= >>>>> additional means. Thus, for a baseline document, one could expect=0A= >>>> some=0A= >>>>> explanation on the requirements of deploying DetNet in a network.=0A= >>>> DetNet=0A= >>>>> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices=0A= >>>> transporting DetNet=0A= >>>>> traffic. That assumption should be explicitly spelt out early in the= =0A= >>>> document,=0A= >>>>> e.g., in the introduction. There also needs to be an explicit=0A= >>>> discussion of the=0A= >>>>> implications if not the whole network is aware of or supports DetNet.= =0A= >>>> There is=0A= >>>>> some text in Section 4.2.2 and Section 4.3.3, but I believe=0A= >>>> additional explicit=0A= >>>>> discussion is needed at a prominant place. For instance, can use of= =0A= >>>> DetNet do=0A= >>>>> harm to parts of a network not supporting DetNet? As a side note,=0A= >>>> when TCPM=0A= >>>>> published RFC 8257, the following disclaimer was added: "DCTCP, as=0A= >>>> described in=0A= >>>>> this specification, is applicable to deployments in controlled=0A= >>>> environments=0A= >>>>> like data centers, but it must not be deployed over the public=0A= >>>> Internet without=0A= >>>>> additional measures." I wonder if a similar disclaimer is needed for= =0A= >>>> DetNet. If=0A= >>>>> there is an implicit assumption that DetNet will be used in=0A= >>>> homogenous=0A= >>>>> environments with mostly DetNet-aware devices within the same=0A= >>>> organization,=0A= >>>>> such an assumption should be made explicit.=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network=0A= >>>> robustness=0A= >>>>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For instance,=0A= >>>>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet replication= =0A= >>>> could=0A= >>>>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How does the= =0A= >>>> DetNet=0A= >>>>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. if=0A= >>>> the topology=0A= >>>>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be solved= =0A= >>>> by=0A= >>>>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are=0A= >>>> corresponding=0A= >>>>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that filters and= =0A= >>>> policers=0A= >>>>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still assumes=0A= >>>> consistently=0A= >>>>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And Section=0A= >>>> 3.3.2 is=0A= >>>>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" without= =0A= >>>> stating=0A= >>>>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further solutions,= =0A= >>>> such as=0A= >>>>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not discussed?=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of failures to= =0A= >>>> the QoS of=0A= >>>>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to protect non-= =0A= >>>> DetNet parts=0A= >>>>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. Solutions to= =0A= >>>> this=0A= >>>>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic (e.g., in= =0A= >>>> case of=0A= >>>>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not discussed at=0A= >>>> all in the=0A= >>>>> document?=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> * Regarding security, an architecture like DetNet probably requires= =0A= >>>> that only=0A= >>>>> authenticated and authorized end systems have access to the data=0A= >>>> plane. The=0A= >>>>> security considerations only briefly mention the control aspect ("the= =0A= >>>>> authentication and authorization of the controlling systems").=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> * For an architecture document, the lack of clarity and consistency= =0A= >>>> regarding=0A= >>>>> terminology is concerning. This specifically applies to the case of= =0A= >>>> incomplete=0A= >>>>> networks (as per Section 4.2.2 and 4.3.3) that include "DetNet-=0A= >>>> unaware nodes".=0A= >>>>> The document introduces terms such as "DetNet intermediate nodes" but= =0A= >>>> then=0A= >>>>> repeatedly uses generic terms such as "node" or "hop" that may=0A= >>>> include=0A= >>>>> DetNet-unaware nodes. For instance, for incomplete networks, a=0A= >>>> sentence such as=0A= >>>>> "The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS assurances is to= =0A= >>>> reduce, or=0A= >>>>> even completely eliminate, congestion within a node as a cause of=0A= >>>> packet loss"=0A= >>>>> seems to only apply to "DetNet transit nodes" but not "DetNet-unaware= =0A= >>>> nodes".=0A= >>>>> Similar ambiguity exist for other use of the terms "hop" and "node",= =0A= >>>> which may=0A= >>>>> or may not include DetNet-unaware nodes. It is unclear why the=0A= >>>> document does=0A= >>>>> not consistently use the terminology introduced in Section 2.1 in all= =0A= >>>> sections=0A= >>>>> and clearly distinguishes cases with and without DetNet support.=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational RFC on=0A= >>>> IRTF stream,=0A= >>>>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., "planes").= =0A= >>>> This is=0A= >>>>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should probably=0A= >>>> refer to=0A= >>>>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC 7491, albeit= =0A= >>>> there is=0A= >>>>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, Section 4.4= =0A= >>>> is by and=0A= >>>>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not specific to=0A= >>>> DetNet.=0A= >>>>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the concepts=0A= >>>> introduced in=0A= >>>>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology or=0A= >>>> discuss=0A= >>>>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly at the= =0A= >>>> end that=0A= >>>>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet architecture.= =0A= >>>> It is not=0A= >>>>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 could= =0A= >>>> be removed=0A= >>>>> from the document without impacting the rest of the document.=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> Minor issues:=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer"=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in the IET= F,=0A= >>>> e.g.=0A= >>>>> originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. "transport= =0A= >>>> network" is=0A= >>>>> used in the IETF for different technologies in different areas, = I=0A= >>>> think the=0A= >>>>> term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer to=0A= >>>> transport=0A= >>>>> protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find the te= rm=0A= >>>> "DetNet=0A= >>>>> transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion is easy= =0A= >>>> to see e.g.=0A= >>>>> in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as per RFC= =0A= >>>> 1122) sits=0A= >>>>> on top of "transport".=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> Based on the document it also may be solution/implementation=0A= >>>> specific whether=0A= >>>>> the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate protocol lay= er=0A= >>>> compared=0A= >>>>> to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me why th= e=0A= >>>> word=0A= >>>>> "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination "transport= =0A= >>>> layer".=0A= >>>>> To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport protocol")= =0A= >>>> should be=0A= >>>>> used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with RFC 1122= .=0A= >>>> But this is=0A= >>>>> probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG.=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> * Page 9=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation=0A= >>>> and/or=0A= >>>>> scheduling,=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> This is just one of several examples for inconsistent use of=0A= >>>> terminology.=0A= >>>>> What is a "DetNet node"? That term is not introduced in Section= =0A= >>>> 2.1=0A= >>>>> * Page 14=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> A DetNet network supports the dedication of a high proportion= =0A= >>>> (e.g.=0A= >>>>> 75%) of the network bandwidth to DetNet flows.=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> The 75% value is not reasoned. What prevents using 99% of the=0A= >>>> bandwidth for=0A= >>>>> DetNet traffic?=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> * Page 15: Figure 2=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> If the term "transport layer" cannot be avoided, the labels in= =0A= >>>> this figure=0A= >>>>> should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport layer".=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> * Page 18: Figure 4=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> As already mentioned earlier, Figure 4 is confusing. UDP is a=0A= >>>> transport=0A= >>>>> protocol. If the term "transport" cannot be avoided, the labels = in=0A= >>>> this=0A= >>>>> figure should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport".=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> * Page 23=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> If the source transmits less data than this limit=0A= >>>>> allows, the unused resource such as link bandwidth can be made= =0A= >>>>> available by the system to non-DetNet packets.=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> Could there be additional requirements on the use of unused=0A= >>>> resources by=0A= >>>>> non-DetNet packets, e.g., regarding preemption? I am just=0A= >>>> wondering... If=0A= >>>>> that was possible, a statement like "... can be made available b= y=0A= >>>> the system=0A= >>>>> to non-DetNet packets as long as all guarantees are fulfilled"= =0A= >>>> would be on=0A= >>>>> the safe side, no?=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> * Page 27:=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> DetNet achieves congestion protection and bounded delivery=0A= >>>> latency by=0A= >>>>> reserving bandwidth and buffer resources at every hop along the= =0A= >>>> path=0A= >>>>> of the DetNet flow.=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> Why does this sentence use the word "hop"? As far as I understan= d,=0A= >>>> in DetNet=0A= >>>>> bandwidth and buffer resources are reserved in each DetNet=0A= >>>> intermediate node.=0A= >>>>> If there were hops over IP routers not being DetNet intermediate= =0A= >>>> nodes, no=0A= >>>>> resources would be reserved there. As per Section 4.3.3, it is= =0A= >>>> possible to=0A= >>>>> deploy DetNet this way. And obviously there can be resource=0A= >>>> bottlenecks below=0A= >>>>> IP, on devices that are not routers... So does "hop" here refer = to=0A= >>>> IP router=0A= >>>>> hops or also to devices not processing IP (or IP/MPLS)?=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> * Page 27:=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> Standard queuing and transmission selection algorithms allow a= =0A= >>>>> central controller to compute the latency contribution of each= =0A= >>>>> transit node to the end-to-end latency, ...=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> The text does not explain why a _central_ controller is needed f= or=0A= >>>> this=0A= >>>>> computation. Why would a distributed control plane not be able t= o=0A= >>>> realize=0A= >>>>> this computation. Isn't this implementation-specific?=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> * Page 32=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> To somebody who is not deeply familiar with DetNet, it is=0A= >>>> impossible to parse=0A= >>>>> the description of the examples in Section 4.7.3. For instance,= =0A= >>>> "VID +=0A= >>>>> multicast MAC address" is not introduced. I think this example= =0A= >>>> must be=0A= >>>>> expaned with additional context and explanation to be useful to= =0A= >>>> readers.=0A= >>>>> * Page 34=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> There are three classes of information that a central controlle= r=0A= >>>> or=0A= >>>>> distributed control plane needs to know that can only be obtain= ed=0A= >>>>> from the end systems and/or nodes in the network.=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> Wouldn't it be sufficient to state "Provisioning of DetNet=0A= >>>> requires knowledge=0A= >>>>> about ...". Does it matter in this context whether the=0A= >>>> provisioning is done=0A= >>>>> by a central controller or a distributed control plane? For=0A= >>>> instance, could=0A= >>>>> the same paragraph also apply to a network that uses _multiple_= =0A= >>>> central=0A= >>>>> controllers, or hybrid combinations of central controllers and= =0A= >>>> distributed=0A= >>>>> control planes? In general, an architecture document should be= =0A= >>>> agnostic to=0A= >>>>> implementation aspects unless there is a specific need. In this= =0A= >>>> specific=0A= >>>>> case, I fail to see a need to discuss the realization of the=0A= >>>> control plane of=0A= >>>>> a network.=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> Editorial nits:=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> * Page 9:=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 provide the= =0A= >>>>> necessary regulation of transmissions by an end system or=0A= >>>>> intermediate node to provide congestion protection. The=0A= >>>> allocation=0A= >>>>> of the bandwidth and buffers for a DetNet flow requires=0A= >>>> provisioning=0A= >>>>> A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation=0A= >>>> and/or=0A= >>>>> scheduling, that might otherwise be over-subscribed and trigger= =0A= >>>> the=0A= >>>>> rejection of a reservation.=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> Probably a full stop is missing after "provisioning".=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> * Page 11: "... along separate (disjoint non-SRLG) paths ..."=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> I find this confusing. I would understand e.g. "along separate= =0A= >>>>> (SRLG-disjoint) paths".=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> * Page 34:=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> When using a peer-=0A= >>>>> to-peer control plane, some of this information may be required= =0A= >>>> by a=0A= >>>>> system's neighbors in the network.=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> Would "acquired" be a better term?=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> * Page 34:=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> o The identity of the system's neighbors, and the=0A= >>>> characteristics of=0A= >>>>> the link(s) between the systems, including the length (in=0A= >>>>> nanoseconds) of the link(s).=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> "Latency" or "delay" would probably be a better terms if the val= ue=0A= >>>> is=0A= >>>>> measured in nanoseconds.=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> * Page 35:=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, doe= s=0A= >>>> not=0A= >>>>> directly raise any new privacy considerations.=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> Broken sentence=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>> * Please expand acronyms on first use (e.g., OTN)=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>>>>=0A= >>> _______________________________________________=0A= >>> detnet mailing list=0A= >>> detnet@ietf.org=0A= >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=0A= From nobody Tue Nov 27 14:32:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88FF0130DCC; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:31:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LacoqbZrvs38; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:31:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from dggwg11-dlp.huawei.com (lhrrg11-dlp.huawei.com [185.176.76.241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CD0512D4ED; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:31:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrpml401-hub.exmail.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.66]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 150134990D520126A309; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 22:31:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHRPML504-MBX.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.5.41]) by lhrpml401-hub.exmail.huawei.com ([10.201.4.160]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 22:31:44 +0000 From: Norman Finn To: Lou Berger , "Scharf, Michael" CC: "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 Thread-Index: AQHUgOI+KM44A3TQG0ur91H2cqdmraVY9g+AgAtIS4Q= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 22:31:44 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F80171FFF5@lhrpml504-mbx.exmail.huawei.com> References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16C02A@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de>, <505e7a95-05bd-5dcb-628f-460790fc1b12@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <505e7a95-05bd-5dcb-628f-460790fc1b12@labn.net> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.7.94] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 22:31:55 -0000 Typically, the resources for DetNet flows are reserved before the flow star= ts. In the case of PREOF, the functions are at least configured before bei= ng used. I would think that, if insufficient capability exists, the reserv= ation/configuration would be refused. We're talking an awful lot of 9s her= e, to justify this feature, so doing otherwise would be a poor implementati= on choice. Do we need to say something about that, or figure that implemen= tors will do the right thing?=0A= =0A= -- Norm=0A= =0A= ________________________________________=0A= From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Lou Berger [lberger@lab= n.net]=0A= Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:07 AM=0A= To: Scharf, Michael=0A= Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@i= etf.org=0A= Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detne= t-architecture-08=0A= =0A= Michael,=0A= =0A= Thanks for the clarification.=0A= =0A= On 11/20/2018 10:02 AM, Scharf, Michael wrote:=0A= > Lou,=0A= >=0A= > Just regarding my comment that seems unclear...=0A= >=0A= > [snip]=0A= >=0A= >>> In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review comment "It is surpri= sing that there is hardly any discussion on network robustness and safety"= =0A= >> I have no idea what you mean by safety here. Can you elaborate.=0A= > As far as I understand, DetNet introduces network functions that at least= partly novel, such as PREOF. And as PREOF explicitly allows solutions bey= ond 1+1 protection ("network coding" is mentioned as example).=0A= =0A= at the network layer, protection and restoration is not new. There is=0A= LFAs. FRR, 1+1, 1:n, shared mesh etc all defined in RFCs - mostly, but=0A= not solely for MPLS. It's also not new transport protocol layer either=0A= as there is work (have to check if RFCs) on network coding and 1+1 --=0A= but this is outside the scope of Detnet.=0A= =0A= =0A= > I believe that any new function typically raises operational issues.=0A= >=0A= > Out-of-my-head, here are some examples of potential challenges that seem = not well addressed in -09:=0A= >=0A= > - PREOF (and specifically) PEF as a single point of failure: Is there any= need to worry about that? As far as I can see, the document discusses fail= ures of paths between POF and PEF, but not failures of the functions themse= lves. Wouldn't it make sense to discuss basic requirements such as implemen= ting these functions redundantly etc.? And if they are implemented redundan= tly, does this impact the architecture, e.g., result in additional interfac= es that may need standardization?=0A= =0A= No more so than exists in the current RFCs related to the topic.=0A= =0A= > - Overload of DetNet components: As another example for PREOF, how would = a DetNet deployment ensure that PEF never gets overloaded?=0A= =0A= Umm, how does an RFC ever dictate that a router/node/host isn't=0A= overloaded? In the normal internet case, I think this is way outside=0A= the scope of an RFC. For TE networks, this is what=0A= configuration/management/control is all about - and sure we can add a=0A= sentence on that.=0A= =0A= =0A= > Buffering and resequencing of packets requires processing. Techniques to = allocate buffer space alone may not be enough to ensure that PEF never gets= overloaded. Is this a problem or not? And even if this problem may perhaps= not really exist for 1+1, is there no need to worry about other, possibly = more complex PREOF schemes that may require complex packet processing (or e= ven coding)? Are there scaling issues in PREOF? And could this impact signa= ling, e.g., require control plane protocol extensions?=0A= =0A= yes, there is configuration/management/control-- this can be mentioned.=0A= =0A= =0A= >=0A= > More generally, if the intention of DetNet is to carry mission-critical o= r safety-critical traffic that cannot tolerate any packet loss, let alone a= ny downtime, wouldn't words such as "reliability", "dependability", "redund= ancy", "high availability", etc. be relevant in a description of the archit= ecture? (Some of these terms are actually used in this document, mostly in = references to non-IETF work.)=0A= =0A= The IETF generally just defines the behavior on the wire in standards=0A= track RFCs and let others define requirement system performance levels.=0A= I don't think we should be changing this in DetNet.=0A= =0A= =0A= > And this may not only matter for the data plane. Assuming that a lot of D= etNet traffic requires extremely high reliability, are there architectural = requirements on components outside the data plane, e.g., regarding redundan= cy? Obviously, control plane and management plane functions are often built= today already as high availability solutions, but if the intention is to _= never_ fail, isn't there a risk that DetNet may require solutions "better-t= han-current-IP" outside the data plane as well?=0A= =0A= There are plenty of high availability (and different level of=0A= availability) implementations of systems out there. The only think the=0A= IETF gets involved with specifying are those aspects that impact=0A= interoperability between systems. (E.g., all the graceful restart=0A= related extensions in control plane protocols). Again, I don't think=0A= it's for DetNet to move beyond this.=0A= =0A= =0A= > This list of topics may not be comprehensive. I just want to illustrate s= ome examples for what could also matter when running a network _really_ det= erministically, beyond the well-known congestion issue.=0A= >=0A= > However, just to be precise: I don't ask for additional text to address w= hat is written in this e-mail.=0A= =0A= Thanks - it sounds like we're ending at the same place even if we didn't=0A= follow the same path to get here.=0A= =0A= Thanks again for comments/review. I do think we'll have a better=0A= document once the other points are addressed.=0A= =0A= Lou=0A= =0A= > Michael=0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= detnet mailing list=0A= detnet@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=0A= From nobody Tue Nov 27 23:05:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D94C130E3C; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 23:02:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=hs-esslingen.de Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tgfUt6YjY0q9; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 23:02:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.hs-esslingen.de (mail.hs-esslingen.de [134.108.32.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CB0F130DC9; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 23:02:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.hs-esslingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CF5625A22; Wed, 28 Nov 2018 08:02:38 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=hs-esslingen.de; s=mail; t=1543388558; bh=GTXA0Imto1NBUnmK2cfT/02P/+9Ub9DPKe4J/v/RidU=; h=From:To:CC:Subject:Date:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=N4EAA3WiJxXEK+GWA11IwjbcaLsiUT+FGAjlzSo6QjYFUnjnnZ5++6xAZ/n24OpWm WOQphYoKCkc2Sg7+rWNZMJpHuBXiod/5poBQGyUa5q6s97tFtOqe9nCR4reTVTy3/V ahdBi5uQsELnv2HzpJ4Yd+qx73SxZnE6FOCtLDHQ= X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-2.7.1 (20120429) (Debian) at hs-esslingen.de Received: from mail.hs-esslingen.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (hs-esslingen.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TCETXqe0zsXY; Wed, 28 Nov 2018 08:02:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from rznt8102.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de (rznt8102.hs-esslingen.de [134.108.29.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.hs-esslingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Wed, 28 Nov 2018 08:02:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from RZNT8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de ([169.254.3.98]) by rznt8102.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de ([fe80::f977:d5e6:6b09:56ac%10]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Wed, 28 Nov 2018 08:02:37 +0100 From: "Scharf, Michael" To: Norman Finn , Lou Berger CC: "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 Thread-Index: AQHUhqD+zb5eemfL5UmWkdLRGCw706Vkvbdw Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2018 07:02:36 +0000 Message-ID: <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D17715F@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16C02A@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de>, <505e7a95-05bd-5dcb-628f-460790fc1b12@labn.net> <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F80171FFF5@lhrpml504-mbx.exmail.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F80171FFF5@lhrpml504-mbx.exmail.huawei.com> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [134.108.29.249] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2018 07:02:47 -0000 Just to repeat: I won't mandate text on this specific issue. But there could be an implicit assumption that PREOF compute resources in t= he node fast path will _always_ be available. And it is entirely unclear to= me if that would be a realistic assumption if the router fast path has to = do complex coding on each packet, e.g. for "network coding" as explicitly m= entioned in the architecture document. There could be tradeoffs on power, c= ost, etc. when doing such complex PREOF coding functions for every single p= acket. And it could be more complex than existing MPLS protection and resto= ration schemes. So, one could e.g. wonder if a DetNet network could run into the situation = that a DetNet node as enough bandwidth and buffer, but not enough "network = coding" coding/decoding capacity, or if a DetNet node would have to announc= e that it can do, say, 1+1 protection with PREOF, but there are not enough = transcoder resources left for doing PREOF "network coding". Then there coul= d be architectural implications, e.g., on protocols. Assuming that "implementers will do the right thing" would be reasonable if= per-packet coding/decoding actions in PREOF are always cheap. Otherwise, o= ne may have to consider transcoders as a potentially scarce resource that c= ould also impact flow placement decisions - maybe somewhat similar to wavel= ength converters in optical networks.=20 I don't know how to implement "network coding" in the fast path of a router= that runs at Tbit/s. If running code has already shown that doing "network= coding" at the line speed of today's routers is easily doable, this specif= ic point may not be relevant. Clearly I am not an expert for router fast pa= th designs. Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: Norman Finn [mailto:norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 11:32 PM > To: Lou Berger; Scharf, Michael > Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet- > architecture.all@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf- > detnet-architecture-08 >=20 > Typically, the resources for DetNet flows are reserved before the flow > starts. In the case of PREOF, the functions are at least configured > before being used. I would think that, if insufficient capability > exists, the reservation/configuration would be refused. We're talking > an awful lot of 9s here, to justify this feature, so doing otherwise > would be a poor implementation choice. Do we need to say something > about that, or figure that implementors will do the right thing? >=20 > -- Norm >=20 > ________________________________________ > From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Lou Berger > [lberger@labn.net] > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:07 AM > To: Scharf, Michael > Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet- > architecture.all@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf- > detnet-architecture-08 >=20 > Michael, >=20 > Thanks for the clarification. >=20 > On 11/20/2018 10:02 AM, Scharf, Michael wrote: > > Lou, > > > > Just regarding my comment that seems unclear... > > > > [snip] > > > >>> In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review comment "It is > surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network robustness > and safety" > >> I have no idea what you mean by safety here. Can you elaborate. > > As far as I understand, DetNet introduces network functions that at > least partly novel, such as PREOF. And as PREOF explicitly allows > solutions beyond 1+1 protection ("network coding" is mentioned as > example). >=20 > at the network layer, protection and restoration is not new. There is > LFAs. FRR, 1+1, 1:n, shared mesh etc all defined in RFCs - mostly, but > not solely for MPLS. It's also not new transport protocol layer either > as there is work (have to check if RFCs) on network coding and 1+1 -- > but this is outside the scope of Detnet. >=20 >=20 > > I believe that any new function typically raises operational issues. > > > > Out-of-my-head, here are some examples of potential challenges that > seem not well addressed in -09: > > > > - PREOF (and specifically) PEF as a single point of failure: Is there > any need to worry about that? As far as I can see, the document > discusses failures of paths between POF and PEF, but not failures of > the functions themselves. Wouldn't it make sense to discuss basic > requirements such as implementing these functions redundantly etc.? And > if they are implemented redundantly, does this impact the architecture, > e.g., result in additional interfaces that may need standardization? >=20 > No more so than exists in the current RFCs related to the topic. >=20 > > - Overload of DetNet components: As another example for PREOF, how > would a DetNet deployment ensure that PEF never gets overloaded? >=20 > Umm, how does an RFC ever dictate that a router/node/host isn't > overloaded? In the normal internet case, I think this is way outside > the scope of an RFC. For TE networks, this is what > configuration/management/control is all about - and sure we can add a > sentence on that. >=20 >=20 > > Buffering and resequencing of packets requires processing. Techniques > to allocate buffer space alone may not be enough to ensure that PEF > never gets overloaded. Is this a problem or not? And even if this > problem may perhaps not really exist for 1+1, is there no need to worry > about other, possibly more complex PREOF schemes that may require > complex packet processing (or even coding)? Are there scaling issues in > PREOF? And could this impact signaling, e.g., require control plane > protocol extensions? >=20 > yes, there is configuration/management/control-- this can be mentioned. >=20 >=20 > > > > More generally, if the intention of DetNet is to carry mission- > critical or safety-critical traffic that cannot tolerate any packet > loss, let alone any downtime, wouldn't words such as "reliability", > "dependability", "redundancy", "high availability", etc. be relevant in > a description of the architecture? (Some of these terms are actually > used in this document, mostly in references to non-IETF work.) >=20 > The IETF generally just defines the behavior on the wire in standards > track RFCs and let others define requirement system performance levels. > I don't think we should be changing this in DetNet. >=20 >=20 > > And this may not only matter for the data plane. Assuming that a lot > of DetNet traffic requires extremely high reliability, are there > architectural requirements on components outside the data plane, e.g., > regarding redundancy? Obviously, control plane and management plane > functions are often built today already as high availability solutions, > but if the intention is to _never_ fail, isn't there a risk that DetNet > may require solutions "better-than-current-IP" outside the data plane > as well? >=20 > There are plenty of high availability (and different level of > availability) implementations of systems out there. The only think the > IETF gets involved with specifying are those aspects that impact > interoperability between systems. (E.g., all the graceful restart > related extensions in control plane protocols). Again, I don't think > it's for DetNet to move beyond this. >=20 >=20 > > This list of topics may not be comprehensive. I just want to > illustrate some examples for what could also matter when running a > network _really_ deterministically, beyond the well-known congestion > issue. > > > > However, just to be precise: I don't ask for additional text to > address what is written in this e-mail. >=20 > Thanks - it sounds like we're ending at the same place even if we > didn't > follow the same path to get here. >=20 > Thanks again for comments/review. I do think we'll have a better > document once the other points are addressed. >=20 > Lou >=20 > > Michael >=20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Fri Nov 30 07:18:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAA49130DF5; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 07:18:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org, Lou Berger , Janos Farkas , detnet-chairs@ietf.org, janos.farkas@ericsson.com, detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.89.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154359108171.27586.2315562103943839854.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 07:18:01 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Abstain_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-detnet-problem-statement-07=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 15:18:05 -0000 Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: Abstain When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't really see the archival value of this doc; it rather reads like an extended charter. However, that's not a reason to block publication, therefore I ballot abstain. One comment on this text in section 3.3: "indicate the flows and packet sequences in-band with the flows;" I don't really understand why this is needed or where this requirement comes from. Is then assumption that in-ordered delivery is needed? However, why would packets be re-ordered in a detnet system? Also, not all flows might need ordered delivery; so that might be another flow characteristic which you may want to configure. From nobody Fri Nov 30 07:37:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B45A1277BB; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 07:37:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.959 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.959 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-1.459, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zvm4FrD8YJfD; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 07:37:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68F2E128BCC; 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d="scan'208";a="206096760" Received: from alln-core-8.cisco.com ([173.36.13.141]) by alln-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 30 Nov 2018 15:37:15 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (xch-rcd-005.cisco.com [173.37.102.15]) by alln-core-8.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id wAUFbFSq003774 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Nov 2018 15:37:15 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (173.37.102.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 09:37:14 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 09:37:14 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= , The IESG CC: "draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org" , Lou Berger , Janos Farkas , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "janos.farkas@ericsson.com" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZCdzIEFic3RhaW4gb24gZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1kZXRu?= =?utf-8?Q?et-problem-statement-07:_(with_COMMENT)?= Thread-Index: AQHUiL/xmuwOV69BKU+DjZwbaZsv7aVocnuA Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 15:36:48 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 15:35:46 +0000 Message-ID: <94e143c927a14ecd89fb299220269401@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <154359108171.27586.2315562103943839854.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <154359108171.27586.2315562103943839854.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.228.216.29] Content-Type: text/plain; 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