From nobody Wed Dec 5 07:45:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EBDA130DEB; Wed, 5 Dec 2018 07:45:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alvaro Retana To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org, Lou Berger , Janos Farkas , detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.89.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154402473045.31985.9200802354399957753.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2018 07:45:30 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2018 15:45:31 -0000 Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Given the close relationship between this document and draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases, I think that it would have been beneficial to produce a single document. As it stands neither one normatively references the other. draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-09 says it better: The Deterministic Networking Problem Statement [I-D.ietf-detnet-problem-statement] introduces Deterministic Networking, and Deterministic Networking Use Cases [I-D.ietf-detnet-use-cases] summarizes the need for it. From nobody Wed Dec 5 13:37:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B94112D4E7; Wed, 5 Dec 2018 13:37:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alissa Cooper To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org, Lou Berger , Janos Farkas , detnet-chairs@ietf.org, janos.farkas@ericsson.com, detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.89.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154404583723.31849.9237514289571618611.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2018 13:37:17 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2018 21:37:17 -0000 Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: Abstain When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I am balloting ABSTAIN, which does not block publication of this document. I agree with Mirja's first ballot point. Moreover, the document contains forward-looking statements that will presumably be overtaken by events in the near future, e.g. the statements about what the IETF will need to do in Section 1. Nit: Section 2 says: "Considerable experience ([ODVA]/[EIP],[AVnu], [Profinet],[HART],[IEC62439], [ISA100.11a] and [WirelessHART], etc...)" It seems like the "etc." should be replaced with an enumerated list of citations, or a description of what the other experience is that isn't explicitly listed. From nobody Wed Dec 5 13:38:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6EB912D4E7; Wed, 5 Dec 2018 13:38:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=q/PFt6V/; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Q+l993DZ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lo28xUJ0BHXq; Wed, 5 Dec 2018 13:38:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1ED13130E95; Wed, 5 Dec 2018 13:38:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA3182380D; Wed, 5 Dec 2018 16:38:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 05 Dec 2018 16:38:33 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=K C0I6oXGjikYOuewPkvmA6gh5cEmgQCMtxq57q2PKEk=; b=q/PFt6V/owp/Y8s2H HsNOCIB0LoZE8yf0ltI4ZoSTCBzz++eJMbgqReQ28hnrtR4EUIeT8rKeTLLEjn2F fs3mI/cR/ulou8QN7qdqOCWnwRmY3/XUlvWR5FjcpLwFo5dPEfRPprleW322wa4Y gfbeIaDXEIdki62QBYE2C5zpQVWH0KBdyBN546RcxDQ47wmfc6zoYuxQc5iq+LAg OWrHTrZ5ra2XJ6LtomYsPEWtxGHHAMIFVc+IUAJUQrkqUI5+ljCpkgC4PbB7yLcr WRrR5t1s6UKgQXEM6X7ruAFuC1hY4sxHI+dnepfRoz8CaTA10p4YKg/1EASXKtKB TE1GA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=KC0I6oXGjikYOuewPkvmA6gh5cEmgQCMtxq57q2PK Ek=; b=Q+l993DZSz6LS4pHBeoZECD+mQPZmw5MYlSV8uCpQw7R3hBBtFWEjGc20 Jgo6cSYVzDTwO3cf8NBVntrJ3B4lWzOZAigP/4u5z5e3T6CcxrCNIHAPQZQpVrm/ h63vSv2Pqkck7PrnbM6iwUgjv+yNbb6og+WMFyI5scKiX6ot9Q52WFF+0qknJG35 s3DUrEingilVrYS4cAgsAKKFe3mvdBqSpk3fHxkTCZLvTzMI725l6pTFDHoZSxmr emfXLaYtX1+BcPi3lt+neQhKlwyjxShu7Gb1gBN37HGgLAJ0NZHDWFHgoIKmW6Sk 5QLrBP+Q8Llijyydjtiydp+ptZ1cg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy: Received: from rtp-alcoop-nitro5.cisco.com (unknown [173.38.117.89]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id B9D8CE44A5; Wed, 5 Dec 2018 16:38:31 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <7ece81694bc540b79da52c37b5da14fd@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 16:38:28 -0500 Cc: Matthew Miller , "gen-art@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement.all@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0C8ED460-A645-4315-8FE2-EC7F3225EF23@cooperw.in> References: <154049050040.15652.1135893758057744905@ietfa.amsl.com> <7ece81694bc540b79da52c37b5da14fd@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Gen-art] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2018 21:38:43 -0000 Matthew, thanks for your review. Pascal, thanks for your response. I = entered an ABSTAIN ballot position, which does not block publication of = the document. Alissa > On Oct 26, 2018, at 9:47 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) = wrote: >=20 > Many thanks, Matthew. >=20 > This will be fixed in the next update of the draft, already fixed in = bitbucket. >=20 > Take care, >=20 > Pascal >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Matthew Miller >> Sent: jeudi 25 octobre 2018 20:02 >> To: gen-art@ietf.org >> Cc: detnet@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet-problem- >> statement.all@ietf.org >> Subject: Genart last call review of = draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07 >>=20 >> Reviewer: Matthew Miller >> Review result: Ready with Nits >>=20 >> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area = Review >> Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed by the IESG = for >> the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just like any other last = call >> comments. >>=20 >> For more information, please see the FAQ at >>=20 >> . >>=20 >> Document: >> Reviewer: Matthew A. Miller >> Review Date: 2018-10-25 >> IETF LC End Date: 2018-10-03 >> IESG Telechat date: N/A >>=20 >> Summary: >>=20 >> Ready to publish as an Informational Draft, though there are nits = that ought to >> be addressed before publication. >>=20 >> Major issues: NONE >>=20 >> Minor issues: NONE >>=20 >> Nits/editorial comments: >>=20 >> * In Section 3.1. "Supported topologies" paragraph 2, the word "an" >> should be "an" in the phrase "a tunnel between and ingress and an = egress >> router". >>=20 >> * In Section 3.1. "Supported topologies" paragraph 2, the word "of" >> should be "or" in the phrase "... the path is end-to-end of a = tunnel.". >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Gen-art mailing list > Gen-art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art From nobody Wed Dec 5 18:05:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AD32130E0E; Wed, 5 Dec 2018 18:05:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Warren Kumari To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org, Lou Berger , Janos Farkas , detnet-chairs@ietf.org, janos.farkas@ericsson.com, detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.89.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154406191720.32001.4349571777467528203.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2018 18:05:17 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Warren Kumari's Yes on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 02:05:17 -0000 Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: Yes When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm balloting Yes (and not NoObj) because I specifically *do* see archival value in this document (and use-case / problem-statement documents in general); when someone has to implement / deploy the technology, having them understand what problem it is supposed to solve (or what the use case is) is valuable... I did have a few nits - they are purely editorial, and I'm only mentioning them because I noticed them, feel free to address or not. 1: Section 1. Introduction "While the initial user base has focused almost entirely on Ethernet physical media and Ethernet-based bridging protocol (from several Standards Development Organizations), the need for Layer-3 expressed above, must not be confined to Ethernet and Ethernet-like media, and while such media must be encompassed by any useful Deterministic Networking (DetNet) Architecture, cooperation between IETF and other SDOs must not be limited to IEEE or IEEE 802." I found this sentence to be hard to parse / a run on -- the comma between above and must didn't help, but splitting it up into multiple sentences would sure make it easier to read. 2: "As a result of this work, it will be possible to establish a multi-hop path over the IP or MPLS network," The "will" in the above made me twitch -- I understand that that is the expected outcome / desire, but wording it as "will" seems like hubris. 3: "In other words, a Deterministic Network is backwards compatible with - capable of transporting - statistically multiplexed traffic while preserving the properties of the accepted deterministic flows." The hyphens around "capable of transporting" confused me. Perhaps it was intended to be a parenthetical? From nobody Thu Dec 6 01:25:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF4ED131120; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 01:25:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Benjamin Kaduk To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org, Lou Berger , Janos Farkas , detnet-chairs@ietf.org, janos.farkas@ericsson.com, detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.89.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154408833677.3321.1139175668996307727.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 01:25:36 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 09:25:37 -0000 Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 2 Robustness is a common need for networking protocols, but plays a more important part in real-time control networks, where expensive equipment, and even lives, can be lost due to misbehaving equipment. I guess this is a side note in some sense, but are we saying we want to get in the business of making life/safety-grade protocols? Section 3.1 On the other end, the deterministic portion of a path may be a tunnel between and ingress and an egress router. In any case, routers and switches in between should not need to be aware whether the path is end-to-end of a tunnel. Nit: is that "of" or "or" in the last line? From nobody Thu Dec 6 01:56:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6530C129BBF; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 01:56:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.959 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.959 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-1.459, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id No_FC0_e-n7N; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 01:56:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D18A8130DCE; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 01:56:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=17446; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1544090163; x=1545299763; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=7PgiESHlfrc5CXHO0Mu35c/yCcG5Sm4EgwKfeQoydXA=; b=fR7vXH3RXjcCQD2nRIMMAJ/vlbucUjlchDgDiaLeXd2VLyvVe79rlFy+ 0EcApyDCaYqKqUBrk3SoYE7loJ7f6Y8HSBWc+tIswqX5kozst6jPtHrdi K9/U8iSbUzRSd5u1yyX77ECOtTnIHHyv69yssj/0sGU81anKJxV4AvWjy s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AEAADL8Qhc/40NJK1aChoBAQEBAQI?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBBwIBAQEBgVEFAQEBAQsBgQ1ILmaBAjGDcIgZjhqReIVWgXoLAQGEbAI?= =?us-ascii?q?XgnwiNAkNAQMBAQIBAQJtKIU8AQEBAwEjCkwFCwIBBgJCAgICMCUCBAENDYM?= =?us-ascii?q?agR1cCIoQm1CBL4osjB4XgUA/gRGDEoRWgy+CVwKJNSGBToN7kUAJAoo5hwM?= =?us-ascii?q?ggVyFFIdNgniJDo9WAhEUgScfOIFVcBU7gm2CT44LQYsAgR8BAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.56,322,1539648000"; d="scan'208,217";a="209110748" Received: from alln-core-8.cisco.com ([173.36.13.141]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 06 Dec 2018 09:56:01 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-004.cisco.com (xch-rcd-004.cisco.com [173.37.102.14]) by alln-core-8.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id wB69u1ad012006 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 6 Dec 2018 09:56:01 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-004.cisco.com (173.37.102.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 03:56:00 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 03:56:00 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Alissa Cooper , The IESG CC: "draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org" , Lou Berger , Janos Farkas , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "janos.farkas@ericsson.com" , "detnet@ietf.org" , =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= Thread-Topic: Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHUjOKzuW9+6Z+bAE2bzZeKBvQV1aVxdFkg Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 09:55:46 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 09:54:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: <154404583723.31849.9237514289571618611.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <154404583723.31849.9237514289571618611.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_a2bc4708e6ba404993259ef37329fb3cXCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.14, xch-rcd-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-8.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 09:56:06 -0000 --_000_a2bc4708e6ba404993259ef37329fb3cXCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 TWFueSB0aGFua3MsIEFsaXNzYSwNCg0KDQoNClRvIE1pcmphIChjYykgJ3MgcG9pbnQgSSBtb2Rp ZmllZCB0aGUgYnVsbGV0IGFuZCB0aGUgcHJldmlvdXMgb25lIGFzIGZvbGxvd3M6DQoNCg0KDQog ICBvICBwcm92aWRlIGFkZGl0aW9uYWwgcmVsaWFiaWxpdHkgdGhyb3VnaCByZWR1bmRhbmN5LCBp biBwYXJ0aWN1bGFyDQoNCiAgICAgIHdpdGggcGFja2V0IFBhY2tldCBSZXBsaWNhdGlvbiwgRWxp bWluYXRpb24gYW5kIE9yZGVyaW5nIEZ1bmN0aW9ucw0KDQogICAgICAoUFJFT0YpIHdoZXJlIHRo ZSBmb3JtZXIgbWF5IGdlbmVyYXRlIGFuIG91dC1vZi1vcmRlciBkZWxpdmVyeQ0KDQogICAgICB0 aGF0IG1heSBuZWVkIHRvIGJlIGNvcnJlY3RlZCBieSB0aGUgbGF0dGVyOw0KDQoNCg0KICAgbyAg 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(version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 6 Dec 2018 10:34:10 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com (173.36.7.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 04:34:09 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 04:34:09 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Benjamin Kaduk , The IESG CC: "draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org" , Lou Berger , Janos Farkas , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "janos.farkas@ericsson.com" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHUjUWoPNPfd89nSUWEua2Zih6V3qVxgYcw Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 10:33:43 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 10:33:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: <154408833677.3321.1139175668996307727.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: 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ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 06 Dec 2018 10:47:28 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com (xch-aln-002.cisco.com [173.36.7.12]) by alln-core-12.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id wB6AlS3C002936 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 6 Dec 2018 10:47:28 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 04:47:27 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 04:47:27 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Warren Kumari , The IESG CC: "draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org" , Lou Berger , Janos Farkas , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "janos.farkas@ericsson.com" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Warren Kumari's Yes on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHUjQgkC2DAp3Xll0SjpvcSeLCH+6VxhAMw Date: Thu, 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--_000_ef4f57ef6e154ff19c50a1a894619a2fXCHRCD001ciscocom_-- From nobody Thu Dec 6 02:56:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFC25126F72; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 02:56:36 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char 9C hex): Received: ...s kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU)\n\t\234by outgoing.mit[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b72EH7-tHyfl; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 02:56:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmz-mailsec-scanner-6.mit.edu 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(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 6 Dec 2018 05:56:21 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 04:56:18 -0600 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Cc: The IESG , "draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org" , Lou Berger , Janos Farkas , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20181206105618.GD97052@kduck.kaduk.org> References: <154408833677.3321.1139175668996307727.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFupjleLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42IR4hTV1o1m4Iwx6DyqaXGt/weLxe9Ps1ks /q64ymgx489EZot9V9qYLDqa37JYzJjyjtGB3WPK742sHr++XmXzWLLkJ5PHh03NbAEsUVw2 Kak5mWWpRfp2CVwZ23bwFWznrTg69xVrA+Nmri5GTg4JAROJ232NzF2MXBxCAmuYJHomtTFC OBsYJb5tv8sE4dxhknj/+REzSAuLgIrE3AcP2EBsNiC7ofsyWFwEaNSGk6/BupkFTjJJvOk+ yA6SEBZIk5h98hRYAy9Q0cvZfVAr2hkl7s9sZIJICEqcnPmEBcRmFtCSuPHvJVCcA8iWllj+ jwMkzCngKvHt1h5mkLAo0OLPCwQmMArMQtI8C0nzLITmBYzMqxhlU3KrdHMTM3OKU5N1i5MT 8/JSi3TN9HIzS/RSU0o3MYKCnd1FeQfjyz7vQ4wCHIxKPLwvHrDHCLEmlhVX5h5ilORgUhLl 7T4AFOJLyk+pzEgszogvKs1JLT7EKMHBrCTCy6DHESPEm5JYWZValA+TkuZgURLn/SPyOFpI ID2xJDU7NbUgtQgmK8PBoSTBKwqMaiHBotT01Iq0zJwShDQTByfIcB6g4X/+gwwvLkjMLc5M h8ifYlSUEucVeQCUEABJZJTmwfWCkpFE9v6aV4ziQK8I83qDtPMAExlc9yugwUxAg3O2MIEM LklESEk1MHZHp0n78hbaLYmpZb9yVbVusant2eaLok7KK71vvlk4WSfPiv/bicXKt9NOnZu2 7ACXjBjj7AIu1V5RfVvxyR9XLFt69/1v/2jba3nMERMVWpM9zq0Oqt16QlrE5f+r4NWfyx2C NM70GryedLJnvXbbDEH+aNPwuhmpcQvXKt2ovbv6wQyrW0osxRmJhlrMRcWJAFfzEDIhAwAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 10:56:37 -0000 On Thu, Dec 06, 2018 at 10:33:43AM +0000, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > Hello Benjamin; > > Many thanks for your review : ) Let's see below: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > COMMENT: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Section 2 > > > > Robustness is a common need for networking protocols, but plays a > > more important part in real-time control networks, where expensive > > equipment, and even lives, can be lost due to misbehaving equipment. > > > > I guess this is a side note in some sense, but are we saying we want to get in > > the business of making life/safety-grade protocols? > [PT>] > I think that the protocols and in particular deterministic properties are a needed ingredient in safety but not all of it. > My understanding is that safety can only come from a validated solution as deployed. > So DetNet is a step towards making IP more applicable in safety solutions, but it does not provide any guarantee. > I'm not sure we should discuss/claim anything there, it could take us too far. I agree we should not say anything here; I was just curious (hence "side note"). And I also agree with your assessment :) -Benjamin > > > > Section 3.1 > > > > On the other end, the deterministic portion of a path may be a tunnel > > between and ingress and an egress router. In any case, routers and > > switches in between should not need to be aware whether the path is > > end-to-end of a tunnel. > > > > Nit: is that "of" or "or" in the last line? > > > [PT>] It's an "or" : ) > > > Many thanks again, Benjamin. > > Pascal > From nobody Thu Dec 6 03:01:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00C9D131174; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 03:00:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.89.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: detnet@ietf.org Message-ID: <154409405194.3453.12947051381818310630@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 03:00:51 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-08.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 11:00:58 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking WG of the IETF. Title : Deterministic Networking Problem Statement Authors : Norman Finn Pascal Thubert Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-08.txt Pages : 12 Date : 2018-12-06 Abstract: This paper documents the needs in various industries to establish multi-hop paths for characterized flows with deterministic properties. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-08 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-08 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-08 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Dec 6 06:40:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADCF9126C01; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 06:40:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=ADUkseFs; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=GuGCdzJ5 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0okumhK9Pmeu; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 06:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12C9A126BED; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 06:40:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A99F8CD4; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 09:40:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 06 Dec 2018 09:40:12 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= from:message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; s=fm1; bh=atDwwbcm161DGuW6pJY7BqW xEZ3ra4veE7NBg99GyMI=; b=ADUkseFsAr2tnK6rdNM+K9/AGkcaAcYN2+D+7cS f6G6WJ2RGLsEi+47Ce/c86UWGayZFCjlVlVrMK6EwEET3EwzuLXZpk8s1PomIz3Y mAQi/irIYXWFznm6SexWiu93j4Y3H622PgxaMTdNkr/XLBQlEsn1jnH7JegwCEiw pAVjJ4arYD6R/e8VFDTZ50MMQEtVTJNUjdKHGsGzJtaoccLoPsukPux6m8KcqATG 7hIj5KBlEE9FAJmSRqdX2RgUJaUoXahLxj8ErZjxFsrpufNx1fj3YcKnhYIySDoD 5wPW21wkF02ses5FUYigEv+pgqd/er98C6clTtD+csM9HMg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=atDwwb cm161DGuW6pJY7BqWxEZ3ra4veE7NBg99GyMI=; b=GuGCdzJ5NTIktyM5JjfvZ/ S/7m2YCHRmwGN0/5fCqx+/lDYSVYWVLlK7QtBdx+GuAseu3uPDErxIvQeDB2Ss1L fCcq5zuJNy/p5mf8PPZGxE89ME3ZVccvHmIGCEq+YbORwYS3qgjjdRgj9AMVIQas EQRCKMV9SwxILhF9eBe5AM1pqLDlWgN+mQ8P/VMleXKu4E27CReYUhVGKtxgyh3p JdPuibgWhKSxdJSxXaHMxgtMTUA9J8Uhg3aPDL1xuyOVzqzPfuv+EiqC/4f6BCEY rkc1ZWUHPEVDeP7CrebSUY7jdOWNbL4Dw1dcmpY5H02TJ9JqsDZCYToT385d3C1g == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy: Received: from rtp-alcoop-nitro5.cisco.com (unknown [173.38.117.89]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 377DC103CC; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 09:40:09 -0500 (EST) From: Alissa Cooper Message-Id: <30F4B465-3062-41C2-B24F-BAB73E137E93@cooperw.in> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2E4D9418-39CB-4D26-9FB4-D379AFF4CD3D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 09:40:05 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: IESG , "draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org" , Lou Berger , Janos Farkas , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" References: <154404583723.31849.9237514289571618611.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 14:40:17 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2E4D9418-39CB-4D26-9FB4-D379AFF4CD3D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks, the changes LGTM. Alissa > On Dec 6, 2018, at 4:55 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) = wrote: >=20 > Many thanks, Alissa, > =20 > To Mirja (cc) 's point I modified the bullet and the previous one as = follows: > =20 > o provide additional reliability through redundancy, in particular > with packet Packet Replication, Elimination and Ordering = Functions > (PREOF) where the former may generate an out-of-order delivery > that may need to be corrected by the latter; > =20 > o indicate the flows and packet sequences in-band with the flows, > this is needed for flows that require PREOF in order to isolate > duplicates and reorder in the end; > =20 > =20 > Please see below: > > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > COMMENT: > > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > I am balloting ABSTAIN, which does not block publication of this = document. I > > agree with Mirja's first ballot point. Moreover, the document = contains forward- > > looking statements that will presumably be overtaken by events in = the near > > future, e.g. the statements about what the IETF will need to do in = Section 1. > > > [PT>] Could we reword to something like: =E2=80=9CAt the time of this = writing, the expectation is that the IETF will =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D > =20 > The sentence would become > =20 > At the time of this writing, the expectation is that once the > abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will specify the signaling > elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elements to > be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that = path. > The expectation is also that IETF will specify the necessary > protocols, or protocol additions, based on relevant IETF > technologies, to implement the selected model. > =20 > =20 > =20 > > Nit: > > > > Section 2 says: "Considerable experience ([ODVA]/[EIP],[AVnu], > > [Profinet],[HART],[IEC62439], [ISA100.11a] and [WirelessHART], = etc...)" > > > > It seems like the "etc." should be replaced with an enumerated list = of citations, > > or a description of what the other experience is that isn't = explicitly listed. > > > =20 > [PT>] Agreed ; what about : > =20 > Considerable experience from automation and professional = audio/video > networks (e.g., [ODVA]/[EIP], [AVnu], [Profinet], [HART], = [IEC62439], > [ISA100.11a] and [WirelessHART]) has shown that =E2=80=A6 > =20 > =20 > Please let me know if all this works. > =20 > Again, many thanks Alissa ! > =20 > Pascal --Apple-Mail=_2E4D9418-39CB-4D26-9FB4-D379AFF4CD3D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thanks, the changes LGTM.

Alissa

On Dec = 6, 2018, at 4:55 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> = wrote:

Many = thanks, Alissa,
 
To Mirja (cc) 's point I = modified the bullet and the previous one as follows:
 
   o  provide additional reliability through = redundancy, in particular
      with packet Packet = Replication, Elimination and Ordering Functions
      (PREOF) where the = former may generate an out-of-order delivery
      that may need to be corrected = by the latter;
 
   o  indicate the flows and packet sequences = in-band with the flows,
      this is needed for flows = that require PREOF in order to isolate
      duplicates and = reorder in the end;
 
 
Please see below:

> = ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> = ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I am balloting ABSTAIN, which does not block publication = of this document. I
> = agree with Mirja's first ballot point. Moreover, the document contains = forward-
> looking statements = that will presumably be overtaken by events in the near
> future, e.g. the statements about = what the IETF will need to do in Section 1.
>
[PT>] Could we reword to something like: = =E2=80=9CAt the = time of this writing, the expectation is that the IETF will =E2=80=A6=E2=80= =9D
 
The sentence would = become
 
   At the time of this = writing, the expectation is that once the
   abstract model is agreed upon, the = IETF will specify the signaling
   = elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elements to
   be used identify the flows that are = to be forwarded along that path.
   The expectation is = also that IETF = will specify the necessary
   = protocols, or protocol additions, based on relevant IETF
   technologies, to implement the = selected model.
 
 
 
> Nit:
>
> Section 2 says: = "Considerable experience ([ODVA]/[EIP],[AVnu],
> = [Profinet],[HART],[IEC62439], [ISA100.11a] and [WirelessHART], = etc...)"
>
> It seems like = the "etc." should be replaced with an enumerated list of = citations,
> or a description of = what the other experience is that isn't explicitly listed.
>
 
[PT>]  Agreed ; what = about :
 
   Considerable =
experience from =
automation and professional audio/video
   networks (e.g., [ODVA]/[EIP], [AVnu], [Profinet], [HART], =
[IEC62439],
   [ISA100.11a] and =
[WirelessHART]) has shown that =E2=80=A6
 
 
Please let me know if all this works.
 
Again, many thanks = Alissa !
 
Pascal

= --Apple-Mail=_2E4D9418-39CB-4D26-9FB4-D379AFF4CD3D-- From nobody Thu Dec 6 08:40:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EE3A130EBC for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 08:40:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.358 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.358 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-1.459, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0rLw10hijNjo for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 08:40:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x336.google.com (mail-wm1-x336.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::336]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 017E8130EA8 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 08:40:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x336.google.com with SMTP id r11-v6so1631287wmb.2 for ; Thu, 06 Dec 2018 08:40:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tYmVuawDxEBNvH1npoL34Nl1tSH/gfRk2e3vu4uil2E=; b=d3UzNVs8s9fIcsupNgvg5Yg/PGImu3tY/+0hBCpYKieung41r4qUL8ic0eBfvXfCfG OfuYM5ZPq40zVOjIOwn9W++46iH9A9hX/DcCTdwUOzZDiU9/LXrqUc+4IZLPBDLeQ+8f wzNMcit/8SPRMeKXd1lD7R7roo/dwNU57tLQI5W26nmEbuaBTBDTXF+D6Aik+x9p6NDU +Hqxjk1BgvgUfyD9iD04SCTcCd/RTZ7Wvv8Le0iVmiVIeSYG+IXRicBbQ7SygUNCpS/l 8+PzW1z8E9NAyav5dTt/da5+XWU3YbVCTMukmgzOoqwYuz/0v7nK5aV0kw600Ja2C5CA 2mUA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tYmVuawDxEBNvH1npoL34Nl1tSH/gfRk2e3vu4uil2E=; b=cEkOYGEprY9Foc367Ckczd1AOQjugy+LXXMIeUygq+8lF3QwKSvcl2iDCo38GT5roA lo5HY61wK243mjLldY2lAiZ3iVdVU4yWu4PiTXhIp72KH8uadKaFauBKokQ2dypB1XsV xuXov1lrmgygZleLGUZlnMtFTa7uyEO/ZD7FhrY+2+46BfAnJZBYMcV0MOlYUQ3bwVo3 3rF799yRPXb7LUfkPoqmllK3yvOFvXn8sN/GfA5mlURJ0nOWQ47cVP4iUzW8eUoJcyLe +qbK2wpLQJ/ZHdwZkq+7IM1CQgy/D0A1B5Ce5Vrt2Uept9XVWjtjehO38TqEYAGioe59 Ftvw== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWaY3V2Pn3SNDrWhYZGDXpb2lhQskwu6fDofw5M8g3bEOm7Khqes pLcWS0DV7c+KO/S1vQV1zGNOeTezL7AoUkv6Eai0OA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/Ub+Te+520/yPtIbPBXFYdGhcs0+Co9hTuf2VLMNO/VxEpjJzPHH9CpR3f/iwRe1YKdlYqndhjrBnyXD3cksjo= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c853:: with SMTP id c19mr19235594wml.61.1544114440984; Thu, 06 Dec 2018 08:40:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154406191720.32001.4349571777467528203.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Warren Kumari Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 08:40:29 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Cc: Lou Berger , The IESG , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org" , "janos.farkas@ericsson.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bf75ec057c5d28ec" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Warren Kumari's Yes on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 16:40:47 -0000 --000000000000bf75ec057c5d28ec Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 2:47 AM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > Hello Warren; > > > > Many thanks for your review : ) > > > ... and thanks for not getting irritated by the nits :-) Let's see below: > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > COMMENT: > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > I'm balloting Yes (and not NoObj) because I specifically *do* see > archival value > > > in this document (and use-case / problem-statement documents in general= ); > > > when someone has to implement / deploy the technology, having them > > > understand what problem it is supposed to solve (or what the use case > is) is > > > valuable... > > > > > > I did have a few nits - they are purely editorial, and I'm only > mentioning them > > > because I noticed them, feel free to address or not. > > > > > > 1: Section 1. Introduction > > > "While the initial user base has focused almost entirely on Ethernet > > > physical media and Ethernet-based bridging protocol (from several > > > Standards Development Organizations), the need for Layer-3 expressed > > > above, must not be confined to Ethernet and Ethernet-like media, and > > > while such media must be encompassed by any useful Deterministic > > > Networking (DetNet) Architecture, cooperation between IETF and other > > > SDOs must not be limited to IEEE or IEEE 802." > > > I found this sentence to be hard to parse / a run on -- the comma betwe= en > > > above and must didn't help, but splitting it up into multiple sentences > would > > > sure make it easier to read. > > > > [PT>] sure > > Thanks! > > > > > > 2: "As a result of this work, it will be possible to establish a > multi-hop path over > > > the IP or MPLS network," The "will" in the above made me twitch -- I > > > understand that that is the expected outcome / desire, but wording it a= s > "will" > > > seems like hubris. > > > > *[PT>] * Yes, we were optimistic, but we are getting there! What about: > > > > A desirable outcome of the work is the capability to establish a > > multi-hop path over the IP or MPLS network, for a particular flow > > with given timing and precise throughput =E2=80=A6 > > Perfect. > > > > > > 3: "In other words, a Deterministic Network is > > > backwards compatible with - capable of transporting - statistically > > > multiplexed traffic while preserving the properties of the accepted > > > deterministic flows." > > > The hyphens around "capable of transporting" confused me. Perhaps it wa= s > > > intended to be a parenthetical? > > > > > *[PT>] *Yes, I can replace with parenthesis, no problem. > > > Win. Thanks. Many thanks again, Warren! > > Nah, thank you. W > > Pascal > > > --=20 I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf --000000000000bf75ec057c5d28ec Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu,= Dec 6, 2018 at 2:47 AM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:

Hello Warren;<= /p>

=C2=A0

Many th= anks for your review : )

= =C2=A0


... and thanks for not getting irritated by the nits :-)
=


Let'= ;s see below:

= =C2=A0

=

>

> -----------------------= -----------------------------------------------

> COMMENT:

> -----------------------= -----------------------------------------------

>

> I'm balloting Yes (= and not NoObj) because I specifically *do* see archival value

> in this document (and u= se-case / problem-statement documents in general);

> when someone has to imp= lement / deploy the technology, having them

> understand what problem= it is supposed to solve (or what the use case is) is

> valuable...

>

> I did have a few nits -= they are purely editorial, and I'm only mentioning them

> because I noticed them,= feel free to address or not.

>

> 1: Section 1.=C2=A0 Int= roduction

> "While the initial= user base has focused almost entirely on Ethernet

> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0physi= cal media and Ethernet-based bridging protocol (from several

> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Stand= ards Development Organizations), the need for Layer-3 expressed

> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0above= , must not be confined to Ethernet and Ethernet-like media, and

> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0while= such media must be encompassed by any useful Deterministic

> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Netwo= rking (DetNet) Architecture, cooperation between IETF and other

> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0SDOs = must not be limited to IEEE or IEEE 802."

> I found this sentence t= o be hard to parse / a run on -- the comma between

> above and must didn'= ;t help, but splitting it up into multiple sentences would

> sure make it easier to = read.

= =C2=A0

= [PT>] sure

=


Thanks!

=C2=A0

>

> 2: "As a result of= this work, it will be possible to establish a multi-hop path over

> the IP or MPLS network,= " The "will" in the above made me twitch -- I

> understand that that is= the expected outcome / desire, but wording it as "will"

> seems like hubris.

= =C2=A0

[PT>] =C2=A0Yes, we were optim= istic, but we are getting there! What about:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 A desirable outcome of the work is the ca= pability to establish a

=C2=A0=C2=A0 multi-hop path over the IP or = MPLS network, for a particular flow

=C2=A0=C2=A0 with given timing and precise = throughput =E2=80=A6


Perfect.


=C2=A0

>

> 3: "In other words= , a Deterministic Network is

> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0backw= ards compatible with - capable of transporting - statistically

> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0multi= plexed traffic while preserving the properties of the accepted

> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0deter= ministic flows."

> The hyphens around &quo= t;capable of transporting" confused me. Perhaps it was

> intended to be a parent= hetical?

>

[PT>] Yes, I can replace with = parenthesis, no problem.

=C2=A0



Win. Than= ks.

Many thanks=C2=A0 again, Warren!


Nah, thank you.

<= /div>
W

=C2=A0=

Pascal

= =C2=A0

--
I don't think the execution is relev= ant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.
This is like pu= tting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having ch= osen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0---maf
--000000000000bf75ec057c5d28ec-- From nobody Thu Dec 6 22:56:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5824126DBF for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 22:56:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.759 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.759 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.46, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GpNqoUg6SgUz for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 22:56:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4137C124BF6 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2018 22:56:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=ericsson.com; s=mailgw201801; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@ericsson.com; t=1544165784; x=1546757784; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=JHdbuEgVQb0RgaBTiUoCZd8gMgS40Z3t/hlS4KkHWKU=; b=No6dM1xw+r3p7Y48QqPG9oXMXF+fPljeu84W/U3/yQrFXOTMsXDcn9H8O+ppi3Ge udCMfJsokREWd08+K4Un0iHDPOAhotfHqmOKXhDiia+U0OhyCKkF0aJOzc911xpP QzT2p0LzTqmdrrBg2p9FRsnGPa1LH5zFWndU7wsdFg4=; X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f49ff70000007af1-5d-5c0a19989a65 Received: from ESESSMB502.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.120]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id F2.58.31473.8991A0C5; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 07:56:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESBMR503.ericsson.se (153.88.183.135) by ESESSMB502.ericsson.se (153.88.183.163) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 07:56:24 +0100 Received: from ESESBMB502.ericsson.se (153.88.183.169) by ESESBMR503.ericsson.se (153.88.183.135) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 07:56:24 +0100 Received: from [131.160.181.217] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.185) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 15.1.1466.3 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 07:56:23 +0100 To: , "STDS-802-1-L@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG" References: <5f2f8dc0-655e-22d6-6ec6-7caa871b176a@ericsson.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= Message-ID: <39c3760d-0685-ea66-a732-becbc9b9f62c@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 07:56:23 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5f2f8dc0-655e-22d6-6ec6-7caa871b176a@ericsson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrJLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7he4MSa4YgxmHDSx+f5rNYrH6lrcD k8eSJT+ZPFq+nWIOYIrisklJzcksSy3St0vgyvh/eSdbwRmlii/zVrM3MB6W6WLk5JAQMJG4 8XYTexcjF4eQwBFGiaP/OtlBEkICXxklNi/LhUgA2fvbdzJDOEcZJaZ2fASrEhZwlTj/YxEr iC0iECXxfNkbRojuQolHp1uZQGw2AXuJu5c2MIPYvED2x5/LweIsAioSVxafBZsjKhAr8enK YqgaQYmTM5+wgNicAg4SOzfMZgOxmQUsJGbOP88IYctLNG+dzQxhi0vcejKfCWKvmsT7hjuM ExiFZiEZNQtJ+ywk7bOQtC9gZFnFKFqcWlycm25krJdalJlcXJyfp5eXWrKJERjgB7f81t3B uPq14yFGAQ5GJR7e0/85Y4RYE8uKK3MPMUpwMCuJ8ArVAIV4UxIrq1KL8uOLSnNSiw8xSnOw KInz6q3aEyUkkJ5YkpqdmlqQWgSTZeLglGpg5GN77dDPcbBQ7q1kpVp+SvLBNTzrFmfvLvnf IdTNfII9du+Zk/Fme+Or2uqSJ3JdDIoKljjTaPp0ygZHxumfI2pY1JK/ajpODHun/y8/bunm yANWnJMvpiTc35vGU6pZGTJ/Rv73f+Ucyt5cx/Z+nnmgPcJ45cFKpe1HVGIYWE98eVORYmak xFKckWioxVxUnAgAYzEEaWwCAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] =?utf-8?q?DetNet_=E2=80=93_TSN_Workshop?= X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 06:56:31 -0000 Hi, The minutes are available at: http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/minutes/2018-11-detnet-tsn-minutes-v01.pdf The agenda (with links to the presentations) is archived at: https://1.ieee802.org/november-2018-plenary-meeting-in-bangkok-thailand-tsn-tg-agenda/ Best regards, Janos On 11/12/2018 5:40 AM, János Farkas wrote: > Hi, > > Indeed, many thanks to all who have made it possible and contributed > to the workshop. > > Thank you very much for the summary Lou! > > The summary slide is the last slide of the chairs intro deck. The > current version is: > http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/detnet-tsn-farkas-chairs-intro-1118-v03.pdf. > > > The presentations are available at: > http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/ > each file name starts with "detnet-tsn" and includes the date "1118", > which corresponds to the month and the year (MMYY). > > The web page used for the agenda provides live agenda during the > meeting week: > https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/tsn-task-group-agenda/#Sunday_DetNet_8211_TSN_joint_session > > After the meeting, week, the agenda will be archived at: > https://1.ieee802.org/november-2018-plenary-meeting-in-bangkok-thailand-tsn-tg-agenda/ > > (Note that the meeting material remains in > http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/, it is just linked > from the agenda page.) > > Thank you! > Best regards, > János > > > On 11/12/2018 3:43 AM, Lou Berger wrote: >> Hi, >> >>     I just wanted to echo what Janos stated in today's TSN meeting >> for those who were not present: >> >> Thank you ~100 of you who participated in this workshop.  I/we know >> it was an imposition to stay until Sunday after the IETF, and >> appreciate your stamina to continue the good the discussion past our >> anticipated end time. >> >> We also thank those in the IEEE who worked all the logistics and took >> care of us so well.  Janos really did a great job  bridging the IEEE >> / IETF organizations. >> >> For those who were unable to attend, the information and material >> from the workshop are available at: >> >> https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/tsn-task-group-agenda/#Sunday_DetNet_8211_TSN_joint_session >> >> >> Some key takeaways are listed on the last slide of the 1st link >> (Intro & Meeting Objectives) >> http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/detnet-tsn-farkas-chairs-intro-1118-v03.pdf >> >> and includes: >>     To be documented and discussed in the short term >>     – Document DetNet over TSN operation for routers and end-stations >>         [DetNet WG] >>     – Mapping DetNet traffic markings to TSN Stream ID [DetNet WG] >>     – Mapping DetNet service parameters to TSN queuing mechanisms >>         [DetNet WG] >>       o N:1 stream aggregation (network calculus for bounded latency, >>         and queuing) [Joint] >>     – Alignment of YANG models [Joint] >>     – IEC/IEEE 60802 DetNet requirements [Joint] >> >>     Question: How do we coordinate joint work? >> >>     Longer term topics >>     – Document optimized TSN aware DetNet end-station >>     – DetNet/TSN control plane interworking >> >> Not capture on the slide is the discussed answer to "How do we >> coordinate joint work?" >> The general agreement was that we will continue to work as we have >> been, i.e., individuals will help coordinate activities by >> participating and contributing in both groups; we will use formal >> liaisons when deemed appropriate by either group; and we will >> leverage the IEEE/IETF coordination activity, see >> https://www.iab.org/activities/joint-activities/iab-ieee-coordination/ . >> >> There were other topics and details discussed that didn't make it to >> the slide.  If you attended or see something on one the slides that >> you'd like to follow up on with the WG, please send a message to the >> list with a different and appropriate subject line -- even if >> responding to this message. >> >> Thanks again, >> >> Lou >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Fri Dec 7 02:44:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F37E612896A; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 02:44:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ji02-nCMN0EG; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 02:44:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from Internet2.beckhoff.com (internet2.beckhoff.com [194.25.186.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5680D129C6B; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 02:44:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from NT-MAIL05.beckhoff.com ([fe80::d1fc:7e7d:c391:f0ed]) by NT-Mail06.beckhoff.com ([fe80::dd37:7341:2531:b9f5%15]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 11:44:41 +0100 From: Karl Weber To: Alissa Cooper , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" CC: Lou Berger , "draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org" , =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= , Janos Farkas , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , IESG , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHUjUntb4odMMlyBEepasfRyIIGVaVxt9CAgAFT6bA= Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 10:44:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: <154404583723.31849.9237514289571618611.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <30F4B465-3062-41C2-B24F-BAB73E137E93@cooperw.in> In-Reply-To: <30F4B465-3062-41C2-B24F-BAB73E137E93@cooperw.in> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.35.16.64] x-olx-disclaimer: Done Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D9ED6EFFD521184F9866EC6A9C4B0DCD022273A7F1NTMAIL05beckh_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: 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Received: from XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com (xch-rcd-001.cisco.com [173.37.102.11]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id wB7DTAi4009820 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 7 Dec 2018 13:29:11 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 07:29:10 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 07:29:10 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Karl Weber CC: Alissa Cooper , Lou Berger , "draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org" , =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= , Janos Farkas , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , IESG Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHUjOKzuW9+6Z+bAE2bzZeKBvQV1aVxt9CAgAFT6bCAADwuMA== Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 13:29:10 +0000 Message-ID: <113A2AFF-B702-4AC3-875C-012AF1FBA934@cisco.com> References: <154404583723.31849.9237514289571618611.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <30F4B465-3062-41C2-B24F-BAB73E137E93@cooperw.in>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_113A2AFFB7024AC3875C012AF1FBA934ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.11, xch-rcd-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-10.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 13:29:15 -0000 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(using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B073D1286E7; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 05:55:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from NT-MAIL05.beckhoff.com ([fe80::d1fc:7e7d:c391:f0ed]) by NT-Mail06.beckhoff.com ([fe80::dd37:7341:2531:b9f5%15]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:55:54 +0100 From: Karl Weber To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" CC: Alissa Cooper , Lou Berger , "draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org" , =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= , Janos Farkas , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , IESG Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHUjUntb4odMMlyBEepasfRyIIGVaVxt9CAgAFT6bCAACqbAIAAFvwg Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 13:55:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <154404583723.31849.9237514289571618611.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <30F4B465-3062-41C2-B24F-BAB73E137E93@cooperw.in>, <113A2AFF-B702-4AC3-875C-012AF1FBA934@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <113A2AFF-B702-4AC3-875C-012AF1FBA934@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.35.16.64] x-olx-disclaimer: Done Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D9ED6EFFD521184F9866EC6A9C4B0DCD022273A943NTMAIL05beckh_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 13:56:03 -0000 --_000_D9ED6EFFD521184F9866EC6A9C4B0DCD022273A943NTMAIL05beckh_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSB3b3VsZCByZWZlcmVuY2UgdG8gaHR0cHM6Ly8xLmllZWU4MDIub3JnL3Rzbi9pZWMtaWVlZS02 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CC: Alissa Cooper , Lou Berger , "draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org" , =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= , Janos Farkas , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , IESG Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHUjOKzuW9+6Z+bAE2bzZeKBvQV1aVxt9CAgAFT6bCAADwuMIAAbAwA//+hmSA= Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:26:25 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:23:23 +0000 Message-ID: <5ace9c333a844c6a976e6384fc429bd9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <154404583723.31849.9237514289571618611.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <30F4B465-3062-41C2-B24F-BAB73E137E93@cooperw.in>, <113A2AFF-B702-4AC3-875C-012AF1FBA934@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.228.216.29] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5ace9c333a844c6a976e6384fc429bd9XCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.12, xch-rcd-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 14:27:46 -0000 --_000_5ace9c333a844c6a976e6384fc429bd9XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGVsbG8gS2FybCA6DQoNCkkgdGhpbmsgdGhhdCB0aGUgSUVDL0lFRUU2MDgwMiByZWZlcmVuY2Ug d291bGQgYmUgdmVyeSB1c2VmdWwgaW4gdGhlIHVzZSBjYXNlcyBkcmFmdCByZWxhdGVkIHRvIHNl Y3Rpb24gMyBvZiBodHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1kZXRuZXQt dXNlLWNhc2VzLTE5ICwgY2PigJlpbmcgRXRoYW4gZm9yIHRoaXMuIE5vdGUgdGhhdCBJRUM2MDg3 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(153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.191) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 15.1.1466.3 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 16:45:43 +0100 To: Lou Berger , "Andrew G. Malis" , "Grossman, Ethan A." CC: , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , detnet WG , References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> From: =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= Message-ID: <38afc693-1a98-50e4-907a-6cc5ec178ac6@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 16:45:43 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFupgkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGbG9XHflVK4YgysbjS1OPz/FZvH702wW i32zNrFY9D3ezm7R0fwWyF3czG4xY8o7Rgd2jym/N7J67Jt4hMVj56y77B5Nr/6xeixZ8pPJ 48OmZrYAtigum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujOUXzrMWzNWq2Na5jrWBsVO5i5GTQ0LAROLNywlMXYxc HEICRxglDn68zw7hfGWUWPF7KxuEc5RR4nn/eWaQFmGBOonJKzrYQWwRgWKJHZd3s4AUMQss Y5TYMX8tWJGQwBsWiXsbbUFsNgF7ibuXNoDFeYHsCY83sIDYLAIqEj82HQCzRQViJT5dWQxV IyhxcuYTsDingI3EjsW3wGxmAQuJmfPPM0LY8hLNW2czQ9jiEreezGeC2Ksm8entQ/YJjEKz kIyahaR9FpL2WUjaFzCyrGIULU4tTspNNzLWSy3KTC4uzs/Ty0st2cQIjJ+DW36r7mC8/Mbx EKMAB6MSD+/7Jq4YIdbEsuLK3EOMEhzMSiK8SjlAId6UxMqq1KL8+KLSnNTiQ4zSHCxK4rwM jUApgfTEktTs1NSC1CKYLBMHp1QDo4atle/7yp4b2wR2p65a3b33tMVDVwX5N4sTNJexPjm2 R7CE1Xa3oZVIQXTKDLvrN/hN0+RNPbonrw+sV3szZ1l06mtpmfQX67IDDrcWJm9/84KB37af 3dojsyFhL/8a8bVvKox0J9q/lWFZH6odn/wk7viKYrNMS5+ieZNFp1aH3E7pXXRaiaU4I9FQ i7moOBEAMHEG2psCAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 15:45:50 -0000 Hi, I have a similar concern with the change. It of course depends on the definition of Traffic Engineering, but the term "DetNet TE sub-layer" may imply to the reader that Traffic Engineering is a must even for DetNet transit nodes. As far as I recall, the intention is to make possible that DetNet transit nodes can be kept simple. Depending on the actual DetNet service provided, DetNet transit nodes can be actually simple. The idea behind the introduction of the two DetNet sub-layers was to make it easier to tackle the problem. The lower layer provides simpler packet forwarding related functions, the higher DetNet Service sub-layer provides more complex DetNet service related functions. In order to have another alternative on the table I propose renaming "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer" Best regards, Janos On 11/20/2018 10:10 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > > On 11/20/2018 3:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >> This terminology is certainly appropriate for TEAS. For DetNet, this >> seems to make the assertion that the DetNet underlay is always >> traffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv6 (which is certainly possible >> using TE extensions for the IGPs). > > This is certainly a fair point and one that does lead me to have a > slight reservation about the change, that said, it seems the benefit > out ways the downsides. > >> >> As long as people are OK with this assertion, then I'm OK with it as >> well. That should be made clear in the architecture spec where the >> term "DetNet TE sub-layer" is introduced/defined. > > agreed. > > Lou > >> >> Cheers, >> Andy >> >> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:29 PM Grossman, Ethan A. > > wrote: >> >>     I like it. >>     Ethan. >> >>     -----Original Message----- >>     From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >     > >>     Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:27 AM >>     To: Lou Berger >; >>     Scharf, Michael >     > >>     Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; >>     draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org >>     >>     Subject: RE: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] >>     Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) >> >>     I support this change; >> >>     Pascal >> >>     > -----Original Message----- >>     > From: Lou Berger > >>     > Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 19:19 >>     > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >     >; Scharf, Michael >>     > >     > >>     > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; >>     draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org >>     >>     > Subject: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] >>     Tsvart last >>     > call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) >>     > >>     > ALL, >>     > >>     > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the DetNet >>     > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport >> protocols. >>     > >>     > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced >>     "Transport" >>     > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". >>     > >>     > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this change? >>     > >>     > To be clear, the suggestion is: >>     > >>     > OLD >>     > >>     >                     . >>     >                     . >>     >       +----------------------------+ >>     >       |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE >>     >       +----------------------------+ >>     >       | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, >>     MPLS SR >>     >       +----------------------------+ >>     >                     . >>     >                     . >>     > >>     >                   Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane >>     > >>     > NEW >>     > >>     >                     . >>     >                     . >>     >       +----------------------------+ >>     >       |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE >>     >       +----------------------------+ >>     >       |      DetNet TE sub-layer   | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, >>     MPLS SR >>     >       +----------------------------+ >>     >                     . >>     >                     . >>     > >>     >                   Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane >>     > >>     > Lou >> > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Fri Dec 7 08:13:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45E0C130E3F for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 08:13:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.591 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.591 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_RP_RNBL=1.31, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_RED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rpLRBLGiRbmK for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 08:13:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy9-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy9-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.20.122]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C01A130E3B for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 08:13:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw14.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.14]) by gproxy9.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B17C1E06FC for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 09:13:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id VIkYg7UXzvdTuVIkYgLajo; Fri, 07 Dec 2018 09:13:11 -0700 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=hzgxFQL3mezi7OdSGfccX87HckoVK3T58S2FMsq/0ZY=; b=HauRkuthShY2zAx/3BdOI9lDx4 7bYoCeRaYDIE5QWduXt0ryahmfy0KfdWRp/1YYqEsRXx7yq/tQKe9xZhSHrd8Q2zU7EFe+7PxFln8 3YJBHotb4+E9cYuBwRBV1IqAN; Received: from pool-100-15-82-67.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.82.67]:46886 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gVIkY-0037cH-N9; Fri, 07 Dec 2018 09:13:10 -0700 To: =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= , "Andrew G. Malis" , "Grossman, Ethan A." Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , detnet WG , Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> <38afc693-1a98-50e4-907a-6cc5ec178ac6@ericsson.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 11:13:08 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <38afc693-1a98-50e4-907a-6cc5ec178ac6@ericsson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.82.67 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gVIkY-0037cH-N9 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-82-67.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.82.67]:46886 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 6 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 16:13:13 -0000 Hi, Focusing on the proposal: > In order to have another alternative on the table I propose renaming > "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer" This is a bit of a new usage for 'Forwarding' but not totally -- thinking about FIBs.  My main reservation is that forwarding is usually considered separately from queuing, while this sub-layer embodies both.  I do accept that TE usually considers both forwarding/steering and queuing, and that some assume that sophisticated queuing is required for TE -- which is actually service dependent. Even with this caveat and my personal preference for the 'TE' option, I (as contributor) can live with "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer". Lou On 12/7/2018 10:45 AM, János Farkas wrote: > Hi, > > I have a similar concern with the change. It of course depends on the > definition of Traffic Engineering, but the term "DetNet TE sub-layer" > may imply to the reader that Traffic Engineering is a must even for > DetNet transit nodes. As far as I recall, the intention is to make > possible that DetNet transit nodes can be kept simple. Depending on the > actual DetNet service provided, DetNet transit nodes can be actually simple. > > The idea behind the introduction of the two DetNet sub-layers was to > make it easier to tackle the problem. The lower layer provides simpler > packet forwarding related functions, the higher DetNet Service sub-layer > provides more complex DetNet service related functions. > > In order to have another alternative on the table I propose renaming > "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer" > > Best regards, > Janos > > > On 11/20/2018 10:10 PM, Lou Berger wrote: >> On 11/20/2018 3:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >>> This terminology is certainly appropriate for TEAS. For DetNet, this >>> seems to make the assertion that the DetNet underlay is always >>> traffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv6 (which is certainly possible >>> using TE extensions for the IGPs). >> This is certainly a fair point and one that does lead me to have a >> slight reservation about the change, that said, it seems the benefit >> out ways the downsides. >> >>> As long as people are OK with this assertion, then I'm OK with it as >>> well. That should be made clear in the architecture spec where the >>> term "DetNet TE sub-layer" is introduced/defined. >> agreed. >> >> Lou >> >>> Cheers, >>> Andy >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:29 PM Grossman, Ethan A. >> > wrote: >>> >>>     I like it. >>>     Ethan. >>> >>>     -----Original Message----- >>>     From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>     > >>>     Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:27 AM >>>     To: Lou Berger >; >>>     Scharf, Michael >>     > >>>     Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; >>>     draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org >>>     >>>     Subject: RE: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] >>>     Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) >>> >>>     I support this change; >>> >>>     Pascal >>> >>>     > -----Original Message----- >>>     > From: Lou Berger > >>>     > Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 19:19 >>>     > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>     >; Scharf, Michael >>>     > >>     > >>>     > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; >>>     draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org >>>     >>>     > Subject: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] >>>     Tsvart last >>>     > call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) >>>     > >>>     > ALL, >>>     > >>>     > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the DetNet >>>     > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport >>> protocols. >>>     > >>>     > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced >>>     "Transport" >>>     > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". >>>     > >>>     > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this change? >>>     > >>>     > To be clear, the suggestion is: >>>     > >>>     > OLD >>>     > >>>     >                     . >>>     >                     . >>>     >       +----------------------------+ >>>     >       |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE >>>     >       +----------------------------+ >>>     >       | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, >>>     MPLS SR >>>     >       +----------------------------+ >>>     >                     . >>>     >                     . >>>     > >>>     >                   Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane >>>     > >>>     > NEW >>>     > >>>     >                     . >>>     >                     . >>>     >       +----------------------------+ >>>     >       |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE >>>     >       +----------------------------+ >>>     >       |      DetNet TE sub-layer   | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, >>>     MPLS SR >>>     >       +----------------------------+ >>>     >                     . >>>     >                     . >>>     > >>>     >                   Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane >>>     > >>>     > Lou >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > From nobody Fri Dec 7 09:48:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B96B130F56; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 09:48:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_RED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Se6jdYx-ET79; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 09:48:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x736.google.com (mail-qk1-x736.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::736]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27BA3130F5B; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 09:48:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x736.google.com with SMTP id w204so2908112qka.2; Fri, 07 Dec 2018 09:48:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=h9YlhxmPa1OLJllCJ+sRwU6fy0m61R9/GaDvTQ93ids=; b=Q5Q8UivJhCAQUvdg5jVWizFijpL0n9mRfw73AODcs4hy1EJChkm8kpV5rkKJ5WWvqN 90Rqh/sshCM0gNSWegr9gZSiUSWFrIj30DfaAwwhwHWwAFed3k8k19WOQMFZuVnY4u8q tktqsjUXvxPAHtNEDrf9fIex9JfP+4zmRanu64q4fkhpbxr0EHB+jU/qvBmp+Pe9mWnH r9GbGFuIcy4l5kZHRUl/0rGCpqnnerlVI/FGKn5HZxpFr0sqxelIbwLH+MVqvAEbZZBQ 8Jx0qighSW2QE5RZf8IOwS/Ns37fCY8KZ1DFU1Prr/WDYQJ9uRjFSRC4Bcf3NsMakCpr 5Slg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=h9YlhxmPa1OLJllCJ+sRwU6fy0m61R9/GaDvTQ93ids=; b=udIP0EZwaRkny6O51pBNQDidWwm42jsInFi2mElJs0/o+9uy829txOOR8IsXXBU3qb vX1FI5izc/c71xjvmWHUI4fNdlnFu8Xx+qBZto8RgOKgeY/BmHWrx/VJoOQydbQ5cSKn vFKZFPEFj6YlM2umDWnLE4LdMkxrCwLirzTvdjW3/jRBYTya23O/+AYIgwz1Xg5eRS6G bV2LqVWMyMubkZvqh/VWAvYgyvIB1IdsC/XEgr1C90ZdYYbl0TBBbVEfvV/x8DDOYBHY uvGexPDOzrH/6mxdkoxdi9GZRxguhZEDhvsadRTGzKOV2inRCxlz6+9ceSDchG97X1FO xnIw== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWYmH2UZDSmeqOv2MsgIjI3SPK3P9iyl4ov/tJXFcFTGNFGFqZdc vS4ZiFjBbQwz5KrUsc2ZE46ggJ+N+23k12Ys0D4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/W/ptiM/w5fzl9yr/ggrFu0w/R3uCItw81jrrUB7N5jRGq2dzK1TROw7Ouu0Zqebx6nopB94A9Wo4xF233Ea8U= X-Received: by 2002:a37:4651:: with SMTP id t78mr2707443qka.210.1544204934231; Fri, 07 Dec 2018 09:48:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> <38afc693-1a98-50e4-907a-6cc5ec178ac6@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 12:48:42 -0500 Message-ID: To: Lou Berger Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?J=C3=A1nos_Farkas?= , "Grossman, Ethan A." , draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , detnet WG , Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000090bac8057c723a2c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 17:48:58 -0000 --00000000000090bac8057c723a2c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I also support DetNet Forwarding sub-layer. Unlike Lou, I've always regarded queuing as a fundamental part of an overall forwarding architecture. Cheers, Andy On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 11:13 AM Lou Berger wrote: > Hi, > > Focusing on the proposal: > > > In order to have another alternative on the table I propose renaming > > "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer" > This is a bit of a new usage for 'Forwarding' but not totally -- > thinking about FIBs. My main reservation is that forwarding is usually > considered separately from queuing, while this sub-layer embodies both. > I do accept that TE usually considers both forwarding/steering and > queuing, and that some assume that sophisticated queuing is required for > TE -- which is actually service dependent. > > Even with this caveat and my personal preference for the 'TE' option, I > (as contributor) can live with "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer". > > Lou > > On 12/7/2018 10:45 AM, J=C3=A1nos Farkas wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I have a similar concern with the change. It of course depends on the > > definition of Traffic Engineering, but the term "DetNet TE sub-layer" > > may imply to the reader that Traffic Engineering is a must even for > > DetNet transit nodes. As far as I recall, the intention is to make > > possible that DetNet transit nodes can be kept simple. Depending on the > > actual DetNet service provided, DetNet transit nodes can be actually > simple. > > > > The idea behind the introduction of the two DetNet sub-layers was to > > make it easier to tackle the problem. The lower layer provides simpler > > packet forwarding related functions, the higher DetNet Service sub-laye= r > > provides more complex DetNet service related functions. > > > > In order to have another alternative on the table I propose renaming > > "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer" > > > > Best regards, > > Janos > > > > > > On 11/20/2018 10:10 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > >> On 11/20/2018 3:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > >>> This terminology is certainly appropriate for TEAS. For DetNet, this > >>> seems to make the assertion that the DetNet underlay is always > >>> traffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv6 (which is certainly possible > >>> using TE extensions for the IGPs). > >> This is certainly a fair point and one that does lead me to have a > >> slight reservation about the change, that said, it seems the benefit > >> out ways the downsides. > >> > >>> As long as people are OK with this assertion, then I'm OK with it as > >>> well. That should be made clear in the architecture spec where the > >>> term "DetNet TE sub-layer" is introduced/defined. > >> agreed. > >> > >> Lou > >> > >>> Cheers, > >>> Andy > >>> > >>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:29 PM Grossman, Ethan A. >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> I like it. > >>> Ethan. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>> > > >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:27 AM > >>> To: Lou Berger >; > >>> Scharf, Michael >>> > > >>> Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; > >>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org > >>> > >>> Subject: RE: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] > >>> Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > >>> > >>> I support this change; > >>> > >>> Pascal > >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- > >>> > From: Lou Berger > > >>> > Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 19:19 > >>> > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>> >; Scharf, Michael > >>> > >>> > > >>> > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; > >>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org > >>> > >>> > Subject: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] > >>> Tsvart last > >>> > call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > >>> > > >>> > ALL, > >>> > > >>> > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the > DetNet > >>> > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport > >>> protocols. > >>> > > >>> > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced > >>> "Transport" > >>> > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". > >>> > > >>> > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this > change? > >>> > > >>> > To be clear, the suggestion is: > >>> > > >>> > OLD > >>> > > >>> > . > >>> > . > >>> > +----------------------------+ > >>> > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE > >>> > +----------------------------+ > >>> > | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, > >>> MPLS SR > >>> > +----------------------------+ > >>> > . > >>> > . > >>> > > >>> > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > >>> > > >>> > NEW > >>> > > >>> > . > >>> > . > >>> > +----------------------------+ > >>> > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE > >>> > +----------------------------+ > >>> > | DetNet TE sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, > >>> MPLS SR > >>> > +----------------------------+ > >>> > . > >>> > . > >>> > > >>> > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > >>> > > >>> > Lou > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> detnet mailing list > >> detnet@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > --00000000000090bac8057c723a2c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I also support DetNet Forwarding sub-layer. Unlike Lou, I&= #39;ve always regarded queuing as a fundamental part of an overall forwardi= ng architecture.

Cheers,
Andy


On Fri, Dec 7, 20= 18 at 11:13 AM Lou Berger <lberger@l= abn.net> wrote:
Hi,

Focusing on the proposal:

> In order to have another alternative on the table I propose renaming > "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to "DetNet Forwarding sub-= layer"
This is a bit of a new usage for 'Forwarding' but not totally -- thinking about FIBs.=C2=A0 My main reservation is that forwarding is usuall= y
considered separately from queuing, while this sub-layer embodies both.=C2= =A0
I do accept that TE usually considers both forwarding/steering and
queuing, and that some assume that sophisticated queuing is required for TE -- which is actually service dependent.

Even with this caveat and my personal preference for the 'TE' optio= n, I
(as contributor) can live with "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer".

Lou

On 12/7/2018 10:45 AM, J=C3=A1nos Farkas wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have a similar concern with the change. It of course depends on the<= br> > definition of Traffic Engineering, but the term "DetNet TE sub-la= yer"
> may imply to the reader that Traffic Engineering is a must even for > DetNet transit nodes. As far as I recall, the intention is to make
> possible that DetNet transit nodes can be kept simple. Depending on th= e
> actual DetNet service provided, DetNet transit nodes can be actually s= imple.
>
> The idea behind the introduction of the two DetNet sub-layers was to > make it easier to tackle the problem. The lower layer provides simpler=
> packet forwarding related functions, the higher DetNet Service sub-lay= er
> provides more complex DetNet service related functions.
>
> In order to have another alternative on the table I propose renaming > "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to "DetNet Forwarding sub-= layer"
>
> Best regards,
> Janos
>
>
> On 11/20/2018 10:10 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
>> On 11/20/2018 3:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote:
>>> This terminology is certainly appropriate for TEAS. For DetNet= , this
>>> seems to make the assertion that the DetNet underlay is always=
>>> traffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv6 (which is certainly p= ossible
>>> using TE extensions for the IGPs).
>> This is certainly a fair point and one that does lead me to have a=
>> slight reservation about the change, that said, it seems the benef= it
>> out ways the downsides.
>>
>>> As long as people are OK with this assertion, then I'm OK = with it as
>>> well. That should be made clear in the architecture spec where= the
>>> term "DetNet TE sub-layer" is introduced/defined. >> agreed.
>>
>> Lou
>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:29 PM Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com
>>> <mailto:eagros@dolby.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I like it.
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ethan.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -----Original Message-----
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <<= a href=3D"mailto:pthubert@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">pthubert@cisco.com
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:2= 7 AM
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>= ;
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Scharf, Michael <Michael.Scharf@hs-esslin= gen.de
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <mailto:Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Cc: detnet@ietf.org <mailto:detnet@ietf.org>;
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.= all@ietf.org
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-ar= chitecture.all@ietf.org>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Subject: RE: Transport sub-layer name= change (Was Re: [Detnet]
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf= -detnet-architecture-08)
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I support this change;
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Pascal
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > -----Original Message-----
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net <mailto:= lberger@labn.net&= gt;>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 19:= 19
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) &l= t;pthubert@cisco.co= m
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>>; Scharf, Micha= el
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > <Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de<= br> >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <mailto:Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Cc: detnet@ietf.org <mailto:detnet@ietf.org>;
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.= all@ietf.org
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-ar= chitecture.all@ietf.org>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Subject: Transport sub-layer nam= e change (Was Re: [Detnet]
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Tsvart last
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > call review of draft-ietf-detnet= -architecture-08)
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > ALL,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > There is a desire to replace the= word "Transport" from the DetNet
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Transport sub-layer to avoid con= fusion with L$ Transport
>>> protocols.
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > In the TEAS WG we had a similar = discussion and we replaced
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Transport"
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > with "Traffic Engineered (T= E) ".
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > While a bit more verbose, what d= o people think about this change?
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > To be clear, the suggestion is:<= br> >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > OLD
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 .
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 .
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 += ----------------------------+
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |= =C2=A0 DetNet Service sub-layer=C2=A0 | PW, UDP, GRE
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 += ----------------------------+
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |= DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 MPLS SR
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 += ----------------------------+
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 .
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 .
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Fi= gure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > NEW
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 .
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 .
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 += ----------------------------+
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |= =C2=A0 DetNet Service sub-layer=C2=A0 | PW, UDP, GRE
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 += ----------------------------+
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DetNet TE sub-layer =C2=A0 | IPv6, IPv4, MPL= S TE LSPs,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 MPLS SR
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 += ----------------------------+
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 .
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 .
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Fi= gure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Lou
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> detnet mailing list
>> detnet@ietf.o= rg
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
>
--00000000000090bac8057c723a2c-- From nobody Fri Dec 7 10:10:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3231130F78; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 10:10:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_RED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q77JT2tUopiM; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 10:10:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22e.google.com (mail-lj1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1972130F7F; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 10:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id 83-v6so4304157ljf.10; Fri, 07 Dec 2018 10:10:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=c83ptpXpNwhysJmoVFFCrNPwXXYkNaMhbn3n32Hmuu4=; b=RseGB+QZCxBPRjy9x5bloRe15rLwUJeFqpGBV60NhV7ch1NkOm6cJ82NKxKjW9vL+4 yepdywdEQS40O4pXxI9pJ/k9tk/uOofUA5cgQ/Taql3WznTgYq1QWKkx5KhDygHNYcpO /tBC0lM2oW3s69ACkVo2gQFVEfbqOMsPv59Shn1jpY/X+yQXiXjwqRgYeCAAvkUfPvs2 2zbErZOnlvtHfZi8OygcRX3v1cItElk4sOR7HCmiqnfxgXnWZZgdrnq0UOEP2/dnNGyV SXMW060ubZit8eGVjJabALaF14KKxVcofERzd0xRc1mukpZ/KJC1R4xE59MJnDgAi7qi 28uQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=c83ptpXpNwhysJmoVFFCrNPwXXYkNaMhbn3n32Hmuu4=; b=dy7/jQSskhu0YHMT2K39tRsrqE4gLEKOgGev+LUAW8s172KDykwSfGaliEJ5IugNqz OufQ/rFiVx4L4/4BGkwjeSP6mycR1jd/XFK+IxA6EGOrGnptKsPSB0xtixft5TJE6kBs uViStFScxYRdSJvf+IXy+vAnppJ7jr5qU4AGNUcj0GW2lpWGDNcI7TtO3JqH5T03owQQ VVwqX6rruWm9/D7farM5GFWQ30cvE4SEKuqF2HjOVPHXab+1U2oSWJ8wdgI6Dxzq289f vxsPnhFqxt0w204Wi1JWXAhEvTIYiyzgUE/jUwvOX3qUwTW9DQ2o4fSkB5rI9hkiUzhW nILg== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWbsTysevTeLnvhlvBxCWQkWO5ZknINY1JDMaV3XdbcXFe5HYR1e pc7KWIweR9PSoDv64SbWpKUvOfpWgSjYiJ28x2M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/Wf3KuxJENZ1W1PeaYIv3tRF0VNpspoP3A94VIJmFzw003kuycNZRohW6NYdHDkFB0zahkM6O9KdWs2z74fAWc= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:4819:: with SMTP id v25-v6mr2110657lja.2.1544206238545; Fri, 07 Dec 2018 10:10:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> <38afc693-1a98-50e4-907a-6cc5ec178ac6@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 10:10:28 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Andrew G. Malis" Cc: Lou Berger , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de, draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org, =?UTF-8?Q?J=C3=A1nos_Farkas?= , "Grossman, Ethan A." , DetNet WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004efcc4057c728860" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 18:10:44 -0000 --0000000000004efcc4057c728860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All, my first choice would be "DetNet Transport Network sub-layer" but would agree with "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer". On a side note, for the sake of completeness, we may add SRv6 to the list in Figure 4 and refer to SR over MPLS data plane as SR-MPLS. Regards, Greg On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 9:49 AM Andrew G. Malis wrote: > I also support DetNet Forwarding sub-layer. Unlike Lou, I've always > regarded queuing as a fundamental part of an overall forwarding > architecture. > > Cheers, > Andy > > > On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 11:13 AM Lou Berger wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Focusing on the proposal: >> >> > In order to have another alternative on the table I propose renaming >> > "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer" >> This is a bit of a new usage for 'Forwarding' but not totally -- >> thinking about FIBs. My main reservation is that forwarding is usually >> considered separately from queuing, while this sub-layer embodies both. >> I do accept that TE usually considers both forwarding/steering and >> queuing, and that some assume that sophisticated queuing is required for >> TE -- which is actually service dependent. >> >> Even with this caveat and my personal preference for the 'TE' option, I >> (as contributor) can live with "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer". >> >> Lou >> >> On 12/7/2018 10:45 AM, J=C3=A1nos Farkas wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > I have a similar concern with the change. It of course depends on the >> > definition of Traffic Engineering, but the term "DetNet TE sub-layer" >> > may imply to the reader that Traffic Engineering is a must even for >> > DetNet transit nodes. As far as I recall, the intention is to make >> > possible that DetNet transit nodes can be kept simple. Depending on th= e >> > actual DetNet service provided, DetNet transit nodes can be actually >> simple. >> > >> > The idea behind the introduction of the two DetNet sub-layers was to >> > make it easier to tackle the problem. The lower layer provides simpler >> > packet forwarding related functions, the higher DetNet Service sub-lay= er >> > provides more complex DetNet service related functions. >> > >> > In order to have another alternative on the table I propose renaming >> > "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer" >> > >> > Best regards, >> > Janos >> > >> > >> > On 11/20/2018 10:10 PM, Lou Berger wrote: >> >> On 11/20/2018 3:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >> >>> This terminology is certainly appropriate for TEAS. For DetNet, this >> >>> seems to make the assertion that the DetNet underlay is always >> >>> traffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv6 (which is certainly possibl= e >> >>> using TE extensions for the IGPs). >> >> This is certainly a fair point and one that does lead me to have a >> >> slight reservation about the change, that said, it seems the benefit >> >> out ways the downsides. >> >> >> >>> As long as people are OK with this assertion, then I'm OK with it as >> >>> well. That should be made clear in the architecture spec where the >> >>> term "DetNet TE sub-layer" is introduced/defined. >> >> agreed. >> >> >> >> Lou >> >> >> >>> Cheers, >> >>> Andy >> >>> >> >>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:29 PM Grossman, Ethan A. > >>> > wrote: >> >>> >> >>> I like it. >> >>> Ethan. >> >>> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > >>> > >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:27 AM >> >>> To: Lou Berger >; >> >>> Scharf, Michael > >>> > >> >>> Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; >> >>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org >> >>> >> >>> Subject: RE: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] >> >>> Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) >> >>> >> >>> I support this change; >> >>> >> >>> Pascal >> >>> >> >>> > -----Original Message----- >> >>> > From: Lou Berger > >> >>> > Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 19:19 >> >>> > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > >>> >; Scharf, Michael >> >>> > > >>> > >> >>> > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; >> >>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org >> >>> >> >>> > Subject: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] >> >>> Tsvart last >> >>> > call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) >> >>> > >> >>> > ALL, >> >>> > >> >>> > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the >> DetNet >> >>> > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport >> >>> protocols. >> >>> > >> >>> > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced >> >>> "Transport" >> >>> > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". >> >>> > >> >>> > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this >> change? >> >>> > >> >>> > To be clear, the suggestion is: >> >>> > >> >>> > OLD >> >>> > >> >>> > . >> >>> > . >> >>> > +----------------------------+ >> >>> > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE >> >>> > +----------------------------+ >> >>> > | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs= , >> >>> MPLS SR >> >>> > +----------------------------+ >> >>> > . >> >>> > . >> >>> > >> >>> > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane >> >>> > >> >>> > NEW >> >>> > >> >>> > . >> >>> > . >> >>> > +----------------------------+ >> >>> > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE >> >>> > +----------------------------+ >> >>> > | DetNet TE sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs= , >> >>> MPLS SR >> >>> > +----------------------------+ >> >>> > . >> >>> > . >> >>> > >> >>> > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane >> >>> > >> >>> > Lou >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> detnet mailing list >> >> detnet@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --0000000000004efcc4057c728860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All,
my first choice would be "DetNet Transp= ort Network sub-layer" but would agree with "DetNet Forwarding su= b-layer".
On a side note, for the sake of completeness, we m= ay add SRv6 to the list in Figure 4 and refer to SR over MPLS data plane as= SR-MPLS.

Regards,
Greg

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">

Hi,

Focusing on the proposal:

> In order to have another alternative on the table I propose renaming > "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to "DetNet Forwarding sub-= layer"
This is a bit of a new usage for 'Forwarding' but not totally -- thinking about FIBs.=C2=A0 My main reservation is that forwarding is usuall= y
considered separately from queuing, while this sub-layer embodies both.=C2= =A0
I do accept that TE usually considers both forwarding/steering and
queuing, and that some assume that sophisticated queuing is required for TE -- which is actually service dependent.

Even with this caveat and my personal preference for the 'TE' optio= n, I
(as contributor) can live with "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer".

Lou

On 12/7/2018 10:45 AM, J=C3=A1nos Farkas wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have a similar concern with the change. It of course depends on the<= br> > definition of Traffic Engineering, but the term "DetNet TE sub-la= yer"
> may imply to the reader that Traffic Engineering is a must even for > DetNet transit nodes. As far as I recall, the intention is to make
> possible that DetNet transit nodes can be kept simple. Depending on th= e
> actual DetNet service provided, DetNet transit nodes can be actually s= imple.
>
> The idea behind the introduction of the two DetNet sub-layers was to > make it easier to tackle the problem. The lower layer provides simpler=
> packet forwarding related functions, the higher DetNet Service sub-lay= er
> provides more complex DetNet service related functions.
>
> In order to have another alternative on the table I propose renaming > "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to "DetNet Forwarding sub-= layer"
>
> Best regards,
> Janos
>
>
> On 11/20/2018 10:10 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
>> On 11/20/2018 3:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote:
>>> This terminology is certainly appropriate for TEAS. For DetNet= , this
>>> seems to make the assertion that the DetNet underlay is always=
>>> traffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv6 (which is certainly p= ossible
>>> using TE extensions for the IGPs).
>> This is certainly a fair point and one that does lead me to have a=
>> slight reservation about the change, that said, it seems the benef= it
>> out ways the downsides.
>>
>>> As long as people are OK with this assertion, then I'm OK = with it as
>>> well. That should be made clear in the architecture spec where= the
>>> term "DetNet TE sub-layer" is introduced/defined. >> agreed.
>>
>> Lou
>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:29 PM Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com
>>> <mailto:eagros@dolby.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I like it.
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ethan.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -----Original Message-----
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <<= a href=3D"mailto:pthubert@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">pthubert@cisco.com
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:2= 7 AM
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>= ;
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Scharf, Michael <Michael.Scharf@hs-esslin= gen.de
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <mailto:Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Cc: detnet@ietf.org <mailto:detnet@ietf.org>;
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.= all@ietf.org
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-ar= chitecture.all@ietf.org>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Subject: RE: Transport sub-layer name= change (Was Re: [Detnet]
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf= -detnet-architecture-08)
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I support this change;
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Pascal
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > -----Original Message-----
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net <mailto:= lberger@labn.net&= gt;>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 19:= 19
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) &l= t;pthubert@cisco.co= m
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>>; Scharf, Micha= el
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > <Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de<= br> >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <mailto:Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Cc: detnet@ietf.org <mailto:detnet@ietf.org>;
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.= all@ietf.org
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <mailto:draft-ietf-detnet-ar= chitecture.all@ietf.org>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Subject: Transport sub-layer nam= e change (Was Re: [Detnet]
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Tsvart last
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > call review of draft-ietf-detnet= -architecture-08)
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > ALL,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > There is a desire to replace the= word "Transport" from the DetNet
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Transport sub-layer to avoid con= fusion with L$ Transport
>>> protocols.
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > In the TEAS WG we had a similar = discussion and we replaced
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Transport"
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > with "Traffic Engineered (T= E) ".
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > While a bit more verbose, what d= o people think about this change?
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > To be clear, the suggestion is:<= br> >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > OLD
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 .
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 .
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 += ----------------------------+
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |= =C2=A0 DetNet Service sub-layer=C2=A0 | PW, UDP, GRE
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 += ----------------------------+
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |= DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 MPLS SR
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 += ----------------------------+
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 .
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 .
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Fi= gure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > NEW
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 .
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 .
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 += ----------------------------+
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |= =C2=A0 DetNet Service sub-layer=C2=A0 | PW, UDP, GRE
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 += ----------------------------+
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DetNet TE sub-layer =C2=A0 | IPv6, IPv4, MPL= S TE LSPs,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 MPLS SR
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 += ----------------------------+
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 .
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 .
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Fi= gure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Lou
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> detnet mailing list
>> detnet@ietf.o= rg
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
>
_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
--0000000000004efcc4057c728860-- From nobody Fri Dec 7 19:08:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7521C12D4EC; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 19:08:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hHaNXU5D4W-2; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 19:08:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 15C4113107B; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 19:08:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.255.254.3] (unknown [31.220.15.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 735301802AC4; Sat, 8 Dec 2018 04:07:59 +0100 (CET) To: Lou Berger , =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= , "Andrew G. Malis" , "Grossman, Ethan A." Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , detnet WG , Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> <38afc693-1a98-50e4-907a-6cc5ec178ac6@ericsson.com> From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: <2a2e33b4-74b3-4153-0db2-7a889551297f@pi.nu> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 11:07:55 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2018 03:08:10 -0000 Lou, et.al,. On 2018-12-08 00:13, Lou Berger wrote: > Hi, > > Focusing on the proposal: > >> In order to have another alternative on the table I propose renaming >> "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer" > This is a bit of a new usage for 'Forwarding' but not totally -- > thinking about FIBs.  My main reservation is that forwarding is usually > considered separately from queuing, while this sub-layer embodies both. > I do accept that TE usually considers both forwarding/steering and > queuing, and that some assume that sophisticated queuing is required for > TE -- which is actually service dependent. > > Even with this caveat and my personal preference for the 'TE' option, I > (as contributor) can live with "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer". Understanding that we want to pick good names, and that sometimes this turns out to be "impossible". But after all a name is just a name. I can live with "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer". /Loa > > Lou > > On 12/7/2018 10:45 AM, János Farkas wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I have a similar concern with the change. It of course depends on the >> definition of Traffic Engineering, but the term "DetNet TE sub-layer" >> may imply to the reader that Traffic Engineering is a must even for >> DetNet transit nodes. As far as I recall, the intention is to make >> possible that DetNet transit nodes can be kept simple. Depending on the >> actual DetNet service provided, DetNet transit nodes can be actually >> simple. >> >> The idea behind the introduction of the two DetNet sub-layers was to >> make it easier to tackle the problem. The lower layer provides simpler >> packet forwarding related functions, the higher DetNet Service sub-layer >> provides more complex DetNet service related functions. >> >> In order to have another alternative on the table I propose renaming >> "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer" >> >> Best regards, >> Janos >> >> >> On 11/20/2018 10:10 PM, Lou Berger wrote: >>> On 11/20/2018 3:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >>>> This terminology is certainly appropriate for TEAS. For DetNet, this >>>> seems to make the assertion that the DetNet underlay is always >>>> traffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv6 (which is certainly possible >>>> using TE extensions for the IGPs). >>> This is certainly a fair point and one that does lead me to have a >>> slight reservation about the change, that said, it seems the benefit >>> out ways the downsides. >>> >>>> As long as people are OK with this assertion, then I'm OK with it as >>>> well. That should be made clear in the architecture spec where the >>>> term "DetNet TE sub-layer" is introduced/defined. >>> agreed. >>> >>> Lou >>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:29 PM Grossman, Ethan A. >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>      I like it. >>>>      Ethan. >>>> >>>>      -----Original Message----- >>>>      From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>>      > >>>>      Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:27 AM >>>>      To: Lou Berger >; >>>>      Scharf, Michael >>>      > >>>>      Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; >>>>      draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org >>>>      >>>>      Subject: RE: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] >>>>      Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) >>>> >>>>      I support this change; >>>> >>>>      Pascal >>>> >>>>      > -----Original Message----- >>>>      > From: Lou Berger > >>>>      > Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 19:19 >>>>      > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>>      >; Scharf, Michael >>>>      > >>>      > >>>>      > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; >>>>      draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org >>>>      >>>>      > Subject: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] >>>>      Tsvart last >>>>      > call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) >>>>      > >>>>      > ALL, >>>>      > >>>>      > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the >>>> DetNet >>>>      > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport >>>> protocols. >>>>      > >>>>      > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced >>>>      "Transport" >>>>      > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". >>>>      > >>>>      > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this >>>> change? >>>>      > >>>>      > To be clear, the suggestion is: >>>>      > >>>>      > OLD >>>>      > >>>>      >                     . >>>>      >                     . >>>>      >       +----------------------------+ >>>>      >       |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE >>>>      >       +----------------------------+ >>>>      >       | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, >>>>      MPLS SR >>>>      >       +----------------------------+ >>>>      >                     . >>>>      >                     . >>>>      > >>>>      >                   Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane >>>>      > >>>>      > NEW >>>>      > >>>>      >                     . >>>>      >                     . >>>>      >       +----------------------------+ >>>>      >       |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE >>>>      >       +----------------------------+ >>>>      >       |      DetNet TE sub-layer   | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, >>>>      MPLS SR >>>>      >       +----------------------------+ >>>>      >                     . >>>>      >                     . >>>>      > >>>>      >                   Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane >>>>      > >>>>      > Lou >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet -- Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu Senior MPLS Expert Bronze Dragon Consulting phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Fri Dec 7 23:08:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B92171271FF; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 23:08:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.359 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.359 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-1.459, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=indianinstituteofscience.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WLEzmef_ZBin; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 23:08:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from IND01-MA1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr1380053.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.138.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E89B12008A; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 23:08:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=IndianInstituteofScience.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-iisc-ac-in; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=PhnQkxj36KtzsT1SrtKMTpcGc+kPaklw9nvBI4PJOZU=; b=iJaN/U6nGWfe2RWj8YVDdPgjWgDlW+JkkuqCoKKLHSDReFiMjG//lAJUrCPF+XEEvvBrHs06z9A8rTJnatzDoefrhfi9gozIcgONE9Vk4zdCVBLLikLq8sPvOJK2T7459YVgmu9jMilHWVNV5f3Wub5fK7EtgHmDX/LrsmsX0Ig= Received: from BM1PR01MB2995.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (20.178.174.80) by BM1PR01MB2434.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (20.178.175.81) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1404.20; Sat, 8 Dec 2018 07:08:37 +0000 Received: from BM1PR01MB2995.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::6408:a3d0:a946:da7]) by BM1PR01MB2995.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::6408:a3d0:a946:da7%4]) with mapi id 15.20.1404.023; Sat, 8 Dec 2018 07:08:37 +0000 From: S.V.R.Anand To: Loa Andersson CC: Lou Berger , =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E1nos_Farkas?= , "Andrew G. 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BM1PR01MB2434; H:BM1PR01MB2995.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: iisc.ac.in does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: t/RL2hb9NFMH1ZgskIFIHHda3QGc7hj1c/SEJBgVBakcV1VYXRGs1sHpIJP+9VwNP55bjS2LLzocZPem0GbbguIxcJqelboGYZ0hV7loorfDS2Bz6ps8Lwa1eYn8dfxuIAbATVjD83Yp5m+MKlWLCduD+9Jk3aGjToYontPkBxWxbaBkhpt7ddyTPTCuaIKYovQf00Jes8mbCY3PETgJnop556mHbE9Id2ngv5Am5k5EBxEgWvKpG3iNIjQF5LdpQs5DT9PYg7m2dnsScalgb4om1CFxbrF/Kg8qpioNqqsImEus90srghrkQJuS4GpVb0MDntFJFvv6DI4Tzb5mbq8DpLk+pBJxJj92uEudQiw= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <29E85F5DF4D97E45A23C375014057E07@INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: iisc.ac.in X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 89021c52-ee6e-447b-e12c-08d65cdbf91a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 08 Dec 2018 07:08:37.0068 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 6f15cd97-f6a7-41e3-b2c5-ad4193976476 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BM1PR01MB2434 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2018 07:08:47 -0000 Hi All, I feel Detnet Forwarding sub-layer is very close to capturing the functiona= lity, but Forwarding still overloaded as observed by Lou. Given the wide range of mechanisms and lower layer services that this layer works with, I wonder if it makes sense to use a generic term "convergence" = in the name. It is not uncommon to come across this term as part of a name in = the context of a typical foo-layer.5. Just a thought. This said, I am still fin= e with Detnet Forwarding sub-layer. Regards Anand On Sat, Dec 08, 2018 at 11:07:55AM +0800, Loa Andersson wrote: > Lou, et.al,. >=20 > On 2018-12-08 00:13, Lou Berger wrote: > >Hi, > > > >Focusing on the proposal: > > > >>In order to have another alternative on the table I propose renaming > >>"DetNet Transport sub-layer" to "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer" > >This is a bit of a new usage for 'Forwarding' but not totally -- > >thinking about FIBs.=A0 My main reservation is that forwarding is > >usually considered separately from queuing, while this sub-layer > >embodies both. I do accept that TE usually considers both > >forwarding/steering and queuing, and that some assume that > >sophisticated queuing is required for TE -- which is actually > >service dependent. > > > >Even with this caveat and my personal preference for the 'TE' > >option, I (as contributor) can live with "DetNet Forwarding > >sub-layer". >=20 > Understanding that we want to pick good names, and that sometimes this > turns out to be "impossible". >=20 > But after all a name is just a name. >=20 > I can live with "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer". >=20 > /Loa >=20 > > > >Lou > > > >On 12/7/2018 10:45 AM, J=E1nos Farkas wrote: > >>Hi, > >> > >>I have a similar concern with the change. It of course depends on the > >>definition of Traffic Engineering, but the term "DetNet TE sub-layer" > >>may imply to the reader that Traffic Engineering is a must even for > >>DetNet transit nodes. As far as I recall, the intention is to make > >>possible that DetNet transit nodes can be kept simple. Depending on the > >>actual DetNet service provided, DetNet transit nodes can be > >>actually simple. > >> > >>The idea behind the introduction of the two DetNet sub-layers was to > >>make it easier to tackle the problem. The lower layer provides simpler > >>packet forwarding related functions, the higher DetNet Service sub-laye= r > >>provides more complex DetNet service related functions. > >> > >>In order to have another alternative on the table I propose renaming > >>"DetNet Transport sub-layer" to "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer" > >> > >>Best regards, > >>Janos > >> > >> > >>On 11/20/2018 10:10 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > >>>On 11/20/2018 3:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > >>>>This terminology is certainly appropriate for TEAS. For DetNet, this > >>>>seems to make the assertion that the DetNet underlay is always > >>>>traffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv6 (which is certainly possible > >>>>using TE extensions for the IGPs). > >>>This is certainly a fair point and one that does lead me to have a > >>>slight reservation about the change, that said, it seems the benefit > >>>out ways the downsides. > >>> > >>>>As long as people are OK with this assertion, then I'm OK with it as > >>>>well. That should be made clear in the architecture spec where the > >>>>term "DetNet TE sub-layer" is introduced/defined. > >>>agreed. > >>> > >>>Lou > >>> > >>>>Cheers, > >>>>Andy > >>>> > >>>>On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:29 PM Grossman, Ethan A. >>>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 I like it. > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 Ethan. > >>>> > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 -----Original Message----- > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:27 AM > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 To: Lou Berger >; > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 Scharf, Michael >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 Subject: RE: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [D= etnet] > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architectur= e-08) > >>>> > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 I support this change; > >>>> > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 Pascal > >>>> > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > -----Original Message----- > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > From: Lou Berger > > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 19:19 > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 >; Scharf, Michael > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > Subject: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Det= net] > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 Tsvart last > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > ALL, > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" > >>>>from the DetNet > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transpo= rt > >>>>protocols. > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we repl= aced > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 "Transport" > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about > >>>>this change? > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > To be clear, the suggestion is: > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > OLD > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0 . > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0 . > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 +----------------------------+ > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 |=A0 DetNet Service sub-layer=A0 | PW,= UDP, GRE > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 +----------------------------+ > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, I= Pv4, MPLS TE LSPs, > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 MPLS SR > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 +----------------------------+ > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0 . > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0 . > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Fi= gure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > NEW > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0 . > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0 . > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 +----------------------------+ > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 |=A0 DetNet Service sub-layer=A0 | PW,= UDP, GRE > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 +----------------------------+ > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 |=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 DetNet TE sub-layer = =A0 | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 MPLS SR > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 +----------------------------+ > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0 . > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0 . > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 >=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Fi= gure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > > >>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 > Lou > >>>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>detnet mailing list > >>>detnet@ietf.org > >>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ > >detnet mailing list > >detnet@ietf.org > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >=20 > --=20 >=20 >=20 > Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu > Senior MPLS Expert > Bronze Dragon Consulting phone: +46 739 81 21 64 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Sat Dec 8 21:37:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6E08130E57; 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Malis" , "Grossman, Ethan A." , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" , detnet WG , "Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) Thread-Index: AQHUgQ1JsrG+4X8OMUqMJlZTq/lAV6VZjYsAgBpcwoCAAAepAIAAtvKAgABDPwCAARRQEA== Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 05:37:33 +0000 Message-ID: <16A460BE-9618-49EE-84B5-673BF1F01CB1@cisco.com> References: <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> <38afc693-1a98-50e4-907a-6cc5ec178ac6@ericsson.com> <2a2e33b4-74b3-4153-0db2-7a889551297f@pi.nu>, <20181208070832.GG2815@iisc.ac.in> In-Reply-To: <20181208070832.GG2815@iisc.ac.in> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.14, xch-aln-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2018 05:37:39 -0000 SGVsbG8gDQoNCknigJltIGZpbmUgd2l0aCBib3RoIHdpdGggYSBwcmVmZXJlbmNlIGZvciBURS4g SXQgc2VlbXMgdG8gbWUgdGhhdCB3ZSBhcmUgZXh0ZW5kaW5nIGNsYXNzaWNhbCBmb3J3YXJkaW5n IGluIHRoZSBURSBhbmQgUW9TIHNwYWNlcywgc28gVEUgaXMgbW9yZSBzcGVjaWZpYyB0aGlzIGJl dHRlciBzdWl0ZWQuDQoNCk5vdywgbXkgaG9wZSBpcyB0aGF0IHdlIG5ldmVyIHNwZWxsIGl0IG91 dC4gV2UgaGF2ZSB0byBmaW5kIGFuIGFjcm9ueW0gdGhhdCBpcyBwcm9ub3VuY2VhYmxlIGFuZCB0 aGF0IGFjcm9ueW0gd2lsbCBsZWF2ZSBubyByb29tIHRvIGNvbmZ1c2lvbiBpZiB3ZSBuZXZlciBl 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(version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.1591.10 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 02:56:37 +0000 Received: from DGGEMI529-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.128]) by dggemi421-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.150]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:55:50 +0800 From: "qiangli (D)" To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , S.V.R.Anand CC: detnet WG , "Andrew G. Malis" , "Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de" , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" , =?utf-8?B?SsOhbm9zIEZhcmthcw==?= , "Grossman, Ethan A." , Lou Berger , Loa Andersson Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) Thread-Index: AQHUjkP+XKN7zFs3UU+vg36Lp7b5jaVy7NcAgAC28oCAAEM/AIABeOSAgAHnp6A= Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 02:55:49 +0000 Message-ID: <06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2ADA6783@dggemi529-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> <38afc693-1a98-50e4-907a-6cc5ec178ac6@ericsson.com> <2a2e33b4-74b3-4153-0db2-7a889551297f@pi.nu>, <20181208070832.GG2815@iisc.ac.in> <16A460BE-9618-49EE-84B5-673BF1F01CB1@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <16A460BE-9618-49EE-84B5-673BF1F01CB1@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.163.138] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 02:56:46 -0000 SGkgQWxsLA0KDQpQZXJzb25hbGx5LCBJIHByZWZlciBmb3IgZm9yd2FyZGluZyBzdWItbGF5ZXIg Zm9yIHRoZSByZWFzb24gLS0gInBhY2tldCBmb3J3YXJkaW5nIiBkZXNjcmliZXMgaG93IG5vZGVz IGZvcndhcmQgcGFja2V0cyBhZnRlciByZWNlaXZpbmcgdGhlIHBhY2tldHMsIGluY2x1ZGluZyBu ZWNlc3NhcnkgZGUtL2VuLWNhcHN1c2xhdGlvbiwgdGFibGUgbG9va3VwLCBvZiBjb3Vyc2UgcXVl dWVpbmcgcmVsYXRlZCBvcGVyYXRpb25zIGFuZCBldGMuDQoNCkJlc3QgcmVnYXJkcywNCg0KQ3Jp 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Malis" , "Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de" , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" , Janos Farkas , "Grossman, Ethan A." , "Lou Berger" , Loa Andersson Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) Thread-Index: AQHUgQ1R6v/C0y9uyUypqdLNLPZ01qVZKPUAgBpcw4CAAAepAIAAtvGAgABDPwCAAXjlgIABZSWAgAA7byA= Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 06:32:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> <38afc693-1a98-50e4-907a-6cc5ec178ac6@ericsson.com> <2a2e33b4-74b3-4153-0db2-7a889551297f@pi.nu>, <20181208070832.GG2815@iisc.ac.in> <16A460BE-9618-49EE-84B5-673BF1F01CB1@cisco.com> <06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2ADA6783@dggemi529-mbs.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2ADA6783@dggemi529-mbs.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: hu-HU, en-US Content-Language: en-US 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(localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78360130EFA; Sun, 9 Dec 2018 23:57:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2_AQ6ndUMFEg; Sun, 9 Dec 2018 23:57:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA4CF130EF7; Sun, 9 Dec 2018 23:57:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.255.249.4] (unknown [176.126.84.122]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CE26B1802AB7; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 08:56:54 +0100 (CET) To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= Cc: detnet WG , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" , DetNet Chairs References: <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> <38afc693-1a98-50e4-907a-6cc5ec178ac6@ericsson.com> <2a2e33b4-74b3-4153-0db2-7a889551297f@pi.nu> <20181208070832.GG2815@iisc.ac.in> <16A460BE-9618-49EE-84B5-673BF1F01CB1@cisco.com> <06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2ADA6783@dggemi529-mbs.china.huawei.com> From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 15:56:45 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 07:57:21 -0000 Folks, The issue being discussed is one that should be resolved to let the architecture document move ahead, I think the time of tweaking is over and that the chairs ´ should call consensus on "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer". We are a number of people that are not 100% happy with that, but most of us has said that we can live with that. /Loa On 2018-12-10 14:32, Balázs Varga A wrote: > Hi, > > I am fine with "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer". > > Note: in order to match it somewhat better (i.e., considering the QoS aspects) > we can consider "DetNet Forwarding Adaptation sub-layer". > > Cheers > Bala'zs > > -----Original Message----- > From: qiangli (D) > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 3:56 AM > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; S.V.R.Anand > Cc: detnet WG ; Andrew G. Malis ; Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; Janos Farkas ; Grossman, Ethan A. ; Lou Berger ; Loa Andersson > Subject: RE: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > > Hi All, > > Personally, I prefer for forwarding sub-layer for the reason -- "packet forwarding" describes how nodes forward packets after receiving the packets, including necessary de-/en-capsuslation, table lookup, of course queueing related operations and etc. > > Best regards, > > Cristina QIANG > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2018 1:38 PM > To: S.V.R.Anand > Cc: detnet WG ; Andrew G. Malis ; Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; János Farkas ; Grossman, Ethan A. ; Lou Berger ; Loa Andersson > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > > Hello > > I’m fine with both with a preference for TE. It seems to me that we are extending classical forwarding in the TE and QoS spaces, so TE is more specific this better suited. > > Now, my hope is that we never spell it out. We have to find an acronym that is pronounceable and that acronym will leave no room to confusion if we never expand it. > > DTSL (transport) is too close from DTLS > DFSL is ok but tiresome > DTESL is a bit long, we may ignore the S either in spelling and or writing; note that old French has many S that went away e.g., forest is pronounced foray and modern spelling is forêt DTEL could be pronounced dee-tell quite easy. > > Think about how many times you will have to pronounce it and choose wisely! I vote “dee-tell” whether we have the S in the acronym or not... > > Regards, > > Pascal > >> Le 8 déc. 2018 à 08:08, S.V.R.Anand a écrit : >> >> Hi All, >> >> I feel Detnet Forwarding sub-layer is very close to capturing the >> functionality, but Forwarding still overloaded as observed by Lou. >> >> Given the wide range of mechanisms and lower layer services that this >> layer works with, I wonder if it makes sense to use a generic term >> "convergence" in the name. It is not uncommon to come across this term >> as part of a name in the context of a typical foo-layer.5. Just a >> thought. This said, I am still fine with Detnet Forwarding sub-layer. >> >> Regards >> Anand >> >> >> >>> On Sat, Dec 08, 2018 at 11:07:55AM +0800, Loa Andersson wrote: >>> Lou, et.al,. >>> >>>> On 2018-12-08 00:13, Lou Berger wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Focusing on the proposal: >>>> >>>>> In order to have another alternative on the table I propose >>>>> renaming "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer" >>>> This is a bit of a new usage for 'Forwarding' but not totally -- >>>> thinking about FIBs. My main reservation is that forwarding is >>>> usually considered separately from queuing, while this sub-layer >>>> embodies both. I do accept that TE usually considers both >>>> forwarding/steering and queuing, and that some assume that >>>> sophisticated queuing is required for TE -- which is actually >>>> service dependent. >>>> >>>> Even with this caveat and my personal preference for the 'TE' >>>> option, I (as contributor) can live with "DetNet Forwarding >>>> sub-layer". >>> >>> Understanding that we want to pick good names, and that sometimes >>> this turns out to be "impossible". >>> >>> But after all a name is just a name. >>> >>> I can live with "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer". >>> >>> /Loa >>> >>>> >>>> Lou >>>> >>>>> On 12/7/2018 10:45 AM, János Farkas wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I have a similar concern with the change. It of course depends on >>>>> the definition of Traffic Engineering, but the term "DetNet TE sub-layer" >>>>> may imply to the reader that Traffic Engineering is a must even for >>>>> DetNet transit nodes. As far as I recall, the intention is to make >>>>> possible that DetNet transit nodes can be kept simple. Depending on >>>>> the actual DetNet service provided, DetNet transit nodes can be >>>>> actually simple. >>>>> >>>>> The idea behind the introduction of the two DetNet sub-layers was >>>>> to make it easier to tackle the problem. The lower layer provides >>>>> simpler packet forwarding related functions, the higher DetNet >>>>> Service sub-layer provides more complex DetNet service related functions. >>>>> >>>>> In order to have another alternative on the table I propose >>>>> renaming "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer" >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> Janos >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 11/20/2018 10:10 PM, Lou Berger wrote: >>>>>>> On 11/20/2018 3:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >>>>>>> This terminology is certainly appropriate for TEAS. For DetNet, >>>>>>> this seems to make the assertion that the DetNet underlay is >>>>>>> always traffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv6 (which is >>>>>>> certainly possible using TE extensions for the IGPs). >>>>>> This is certainly a fair point and one that does lead me to have a >>>>>> slight reservation about the change, that said, it seems the >>>>>> benefit out ways the downsides. >>>>>> >>>>>>> As long as people are OK with this assertion, then I'm OK with it >>>>>>> as well. That should be made clear in the architecture spec where >>>>>>> the term "DetNet TE sub-layer" is introduced/defined. >>>>>> agreed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Lou >>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:29 PM Grossman, Ethan A. >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I like it. >>>>>>> Ethan. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:27 AM >>>>>>> To: Lou Berger >; >>>>>>> Scharf, Michael >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; >>>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: RE: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] >>>>>>> Tsvart last call review of >>>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I support this change; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pascal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> > From: Lou Berger > >>>>>>> > Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 19:19 >>>>>>> > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>>>>> >; Scharf, Michael >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; >>>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Subject: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] >>>>>>> Tsvart last >>>>>>> > call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > ALL, >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" >>>>>>> from the DetNet >>>>>>> > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport >>>>>>> protocols. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced >>>>>>> "Transport" >>>>>>> > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this >>>>>>> change? >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > To be clear, the suggestion is: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > OLD >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > . >>>>>>> > . >>>>>>> > +----------------------------+ >>>>>>> > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE >>>>>>> > +----------------------------+ >>>>>>> > | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, >>>>>>> MPLS SR >>>>>>> > +----------------------------+ >>>>>>> > . >>>>>>> > . >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > NEW >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > . >>>>>>> > . >>>>>>> > +----------------------------+ >>>>>>> > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE >>>>>>> > +----------------------------+ >>>>>>> > | DetNet TE sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, >>>>>>> MPLS SR >>>>>>> > +----------------------------+ >>>>>>> > . >>>>>>> > . >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Lou >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> detnet mailing list >>>>>> detnet@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> detnet mailing list >>>> detnet@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu >>> Senior MPLS Expert >>> Bronze Dragon Consulting phone: +46 739 81 21 64 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > -- Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu Senior MPLS Expert Bronze Dragon Consulting phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Mon Dec 10 05:52:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62DFB1271FF; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 05:52:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hl_Nh9TOPbkX; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 05:52:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82f.google.com (mail-qt1-x82f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7243612870E; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 05:52:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82f.google.com with SMTP id n32so12259806qte.11; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 05:52:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2pLpiEM/DEk/UZx2hSlT/jpOQ5LPPFS07ItujwSZ6tg=; b=g/pZeuE+l/emTD7V9oY5+yBnv2q40RaYOqf3Rj2HroOXiSWwwsuyzOo9aMN7trq/Cy hz52UQy0OSV5AOCzgPuGzSVpDFuBukHHeBFT9PQZjt1pr0ire7HNvfL9Okhoxyct3Vvj 3HwuCJwlVFVwpT8d19teGVcpCygNrSLePbJ+FUkoEXytadPn0XoArNKO10lTKO7d7Pgd 3PgYQF4eLdG24wFVSaWnxf+MeNIyHhQ3hVIUS5iuisTqpYxYxiCR2eh9q/GQc/zCcP9N 3ehMx0E0oDdQHDC5cR9zaMo/ns/fkp3JEqlQeBFL/lqQW5lOnMGZPVhkJOHDv/tzEPub Tupw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2pLpiEM/DEk/UZx2hSlT/jpOQ5LPPFS07ItujwSZ6tg=; b=gBo+qJ/Yek1sZ6juRrPRyTR/IUW/TU9G6ED484QfmsDZgUuQGA/NDEBb5axr1FNvk7 5HVaZ6nm1xxYdS9cDG9rZ1O/cacOQKKwh4Jj+eL2GJ/KUYSTOLa6VCjfOx4/M6vrgmJY B0DI+nlqMO/IZoea8X+c1JCDkmijb6CxP9J0khCKTY/qD4CT67j9r0us65Zs+wBe5QTG wi2cN5jOGT30E7Z57sI3kbeH41sGl/pbtDsy+OS6YJ204dIomovvTjOQ+DoUh5bXejPA k7pUtiw48U2Q7uEkbMaXGrn5k9LSlH1kdlDPFcWKzIaZXBRnE5vkpGZMgUIdvaB/YJNW 7gdg== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWYbO+5C6A2mN6GFITbBOyvAB4WR0BrazgbD3o9BWJXxHCLP2MUT aeSMDmL0xIi/yMwf5wER5EzeYZ865iqt2GHlnPk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/WQr82LieHcORjkIILu4gm6pISjbKCfGUP3qUja83EZwivDLuk+16KqTagll4p1PF5f4cjwACs5gv1YgOIwGvs= X-Received: by 2002:aed:2cc4:: with SMTP id g62mr4097156qtd.192.1544449967475; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 05:52:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> <38afc693-1a98-50e4-907a-6cc5ec178ac6@ericsson.com> <2a2e33b4-74b3-4153-0db2-7a889551297f@pi.nu> <20181208070832.GG2815@iisc.ac.in> <16A460BE-9618-49EE-84B5-673BF1F01CB1@cisco.com> <06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2ADA6783@dggemi529-mbs.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 08:52:36 -0500 Message-ID: To: Loa Andersson Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Varga_A?= , draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org, detnet WG , DetNet Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000af5266057cab47de" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 13:52:52 -0000 --000000000000af5266057cab47de Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 2:57 AM Loa Andersson wrote: > Folks, > > The issue being discussed is one that should be resolved to let the > architecture document move ahead, > > I think the time of tweaking is over and that the chairs =C2=B4 should ca= ll > consensus on "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer". > > We are a number of people that are not 100% happy with that, but most > of us has said that we can live with that. > > /Loa > > On 2018-12-10 14:32, Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I am fine with "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer". > > > > Note: in order to match it somewhat better (i.e., considering the QoS > aspects) > > we can consider "DetNet Forwarding Adaptation sub-layer". > > > > Cheers > > Bala'zs > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: qiangli (D) > > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 3:56 AM > > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; S.V.R.Anand < > anandsvr@iisc.ac.in> > > Cc: detnet WG ; Andrew G. Malis ; > Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de; > draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; Janos Farkas < > Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>; Grossman, Ethan A. ; Lou > Berger ; Loa Andersson > > Subject: RE: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart > last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > > > > Hi All, > > > > Personally, I prefer for forwarding sub-layer for the reason -- "packet > forwarding" describes how nodes forward packets after receiving the > packets, including necessary de-/en-capsuslation, table lookup, of course > queueing related operations and etc. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Cristina QIANG > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal > Thubert (pthubert) > > Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2018 1:38 PM > > To: S.V.R.Anand > > Cc: detnet WG ; Andrew G. Malis ; > Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de; > draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; J=C3=A1nos Farkas < > janos.farkas@ericsson.com>; Grossman, Ethan A. ; Lou > Berger ; Loa Andersson > > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart > last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > > > > Hello > > > > I=E2=80=99m fine with both with a preference for TE. It seems to me tha= t we are > extending classical forwarding in the TE and QoS spaces, so TE is more > specific this better suited. > > > > Now, my hope is that we never spell it out. We have to find an acronym > that is pronounceable and that acronym will leave no room to confusion if > we never expand it. > > > > DTSL (transport) is too close from DTLS > > DFSL is ok but tiresome > > DTESL is a bit long, we may ignore the S either in spelling and or > writing; note that old French has many S that went away e.g., forest is > pronounced foray and modern spelling is for=C3=AAt DTEL could be pronounc= ed > dee-tell quite easy. > > > > Think about how many times you will have to pronounce it and choose > wisely! I vote =E2=80=9Cdee-tell=E2=80=9D whether we have the S in the ac= ronym or not... > > > > Regards, > > > > Pascal > > > >> Le 8 d=C3=A9c. 2018 =C3=A0 08:08, S.V.R.Anand a = =C3=A9crit : > >> > >> Hi All, > >> > >> I feel Detnet Forwarding sub-layer is very close to capturing the > >> functionality, but Forwarding still overloaded as observed by Lou. > >> > >> Given the wide range of mechanisms and lower layer services that this > >> layer works with, I wonder if it makes sense to use a generic term > >> "convergence" in the name. It is not uncommon to come across this term > >> as part of a name in the context of a typical foo-layer.5. Just a > >> thought. This said, I am still fine with Detnet Forwarding sub-layer. > >> > >> Regards > >> Anand > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Sat, Dec 08, 2018 at 11:07:55AM +0800, Loa Andersson wrote: > >>> Lou, et.al,. > >>> > >>>> On 2018-12-08 00:13, Lou Berger wrote: > >>>> Hi, > >>>> > >>>> Focusing on the proposal: > >>>> > >>>>> In order to have another alternative on the table I propose > >>>>> renaming "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to "DetNet Forwarding > sub-layer" > >>>> This is a bit of a new usage for 'Forwarding' but not totally -- > >>>> thinking about FIBs. My main reservation is that forwarding is > >>>> usually considered separately from queuing, while this sub-layer > >>>> embodies both. I do accept that TE usually considers both > >>>> forwarding/steering and queuing, and that some assume that > >>>> sophisticated queuing is required for TE -- which is actually > >>>> service dependent. > >>>> > >>>> Even with this caveat and my personal preference for the 'TE' > >>>> option, I (as contributor) can live with "DetNet Forwarding > >>>> sub-layer". > >>> > >>> Understanding that we want to pick good names, and that sometimes > >>> this turns out to be "impossible". > >>> > >>> But after all a name is just a name. > >>> > >>> I can live with "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer". > >>> > >>> /Loa > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Lou > >>>> > >>>>> On 12/7/2018 10:45 AM, J=C3=A1nos Farkas wrote: > >>>>> Hi, > >>>>> > >>>>> I have a similar concern with the change. It of course depends on > >>>>> the definition of Traffic Engineering, but the term "DetNet TE > sub-layer" > >>>>> may imply to the reader that Traffic Engineering is a must even for > >>>>> DetNet transit nodes. As far as I recall, the intention is to make > >>>>> possible that DetNet transit nodes can be kept simple. Depending on > >>>>> the actual DetNet service provided, DetNet transit nodes can be > >>>>> actually simple. > >>>>> > >>>>> The idea behind the introduction of the two DetNet sub-layers was > >>>>> to make it easier to tackle the problem. The lower layer provides > >>>>> simpler packet forwarding related functions, the higher DetNet > >>>>> Service sub-layer provides more complex DetNet service related > functions. > >>>>> > >>>>> In order to have another alternative on the table I propose > >>>>> renaming "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to "DetNet Forwarding > sub-layer" > >>>>> > >>>>> Best regards, > >>>>> Janos > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On 11/20/2018 10:10 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > >>>>>>> On 11/20/2018 3:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > >>>>>>> This terminology is certainly appropriate for TEAS. For DetNet, > >>>>>>> this seems to make the assertion that the DetNet underlay is > >>>>>>> always traffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv6 (which is > >>>>>>> certainly possible using TE extensions for the IGPs). > >>>>>> This is certainly a fair point and one that does lead me to have a > >>>>>> slight reservation about the change, that said, it seems the > >>>>>> benefit out ways the downsides. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> As long as people are OK with this assertion, then I'm OK with it > >>>>>>> as well. That should be made clear in the architecture spec where > >>>>>>> the term "DetNet TE sub-layer" is introduced/defined. > >>>>>> agreed. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Lou > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>> Andy > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:29 PM Grossman, Ethan A. > >>>>>>> > wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I like it. > >>>>>>> Ethan. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:27 AM > >>>>>>> To: Lou Berger >= ; > >>>>>>> Scharf, Michael >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; > >>>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Subject: RE: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: > [Detnet] > >>>>>>> Tsvart last call review of > >>>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I support this change; > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Pascal > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> > From: Lou Berger lberger@labn.net>> > >>>>>>> > Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 19:19 > >>>>>>> > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>>>>>> >; Scharf, Michael > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; > >>>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Subject: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet= ] > >>>>>>> Tsvart last > >>>>>>> > call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > ALL, > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" > >>>>>>> from the DetNet > >>>>>>> > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport > >>>>>>> protocols. > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replace= d > >>>>>>> "Transport" > >>>>>>> > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this > >>>>>>> change? > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > To be clear, the suggestion is: > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > OLD > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > . > >>>>>>> > . > >>>>>>> > +----------------------------+ > >>>>>>> > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE > >>>>>>> > +----------------------------+ > >>>>>>> > | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE > LSPs, > >>>>>>> MPLS SR > >>>>>>> > +----------------------------+ > >>>>>>> > . > >>>>>>> > . > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data pla= ne > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > NEW > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > . > >>>>>>> > . > >>>>>>> > +----------------------------+ > >>>>>>> > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE > >>>>>>> > +----------------------------+ > >>>>>>> > | DetNet TE sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE > LSPs, > >>>>>>> MPLS SR > >>>>>>> > +----------------------------+ > >>>>>>> > . > >>>>>>> > . > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data pla= ne > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Lou > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> detnet mailing list > >>>>>> detnet@ietf.org > >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> detnet mailing list > >>>> detnet@ietf.org > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> > >>> Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu > >>> Senior MPLS Expert > >>> Bronze Dragon Consulting phone: +46 739 81 21 64 > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> detnet mailing list > >>> detnet@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > -- > > > Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu > Senior MPLS Expert > Bronze Dragon Consulting phone: +46 739 81 21 64 > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --000000000000af5266057cab47de Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1


=
On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 2:57 AM Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu> wrote:
Folks,

The issue being discussed is one that should be resolved to let the
architecture document move ahead,

I think the time of tweaking is over and that the chairs =C2=B4 should call=
consensus on "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer".

We are a number of people that are not 100% happy with that, but most
of us has said that we can live with that.

/Loa

On 2018-12-10 14:32, Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am fine with "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer".
>
> Note: in order to match it somewhat better (i.e., considering the QoS = aspects)
> we can consider "DetNet Forwarding Adaptation sub-layer". >
> Cheers
> Bala'zs
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: qiangli (D) <qiangli3@huawei.com>
> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 3:56 AM
> To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; S.V.R.Anand <anandsvr@iisc.ac.in> > Cc: detnet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>; Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.d= e; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; Janos Farkas = <Janos.Fa= rkas@ericsson.com>; Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>; = Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu<= /a>>
> Subject: RE: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart = last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08)
>
> Hi All,
>
> Personally, I prefer for forwarding sub-layer for the reason -- "= packet forwarding" describes how nodes forward packets after receiving= the packets, including necessary de-/en-capsuslation, table lookup, of cou= rse queueing related operations and etc.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Cristina QIANG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthub= ert)
> Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2018 1:38 PM
> To: S.V.R.Anand <anandsvr@iisc.ac.in>
> Cc: detnet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>; Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.d= e; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; J=C3=A1nos Fa= rkas <jan= os.farkas@ericsson.com>; Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; Lou Berger <= lberger@labn.net&= gt;; Loa Andersson <loa@p= i.nu>
> Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart = last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08)
>
> Hello
>
> I=E2=80=99m fine with both with a preference for TE. It seems to me th= at we are extending classical forwarding in the TE and QoS spaces, so TE is= more specific this better suited.
>
> Now, my hope is that we never spell it out. We have to find an acronym= that is pronounceable and that acronym will leave no room to confusion if = we never expand it.
>
> DTSL (transport) is too close from DTLS
> DFSL is=C2=A0 ok but tiresome
> DTESL is a bit long, we may ignore the S either in spelling and or wri= ting; note that old French has many S that went away e.g., forest is pronou= nced foray and modern spelling is for=C3=AAt DTEL could be pronounced dee-t= ell quite easy.
>
> Think about how many times you will have to pronounce it and choose wi= sely! I vote =E2=80=9Cdee-tell=E2=80=9D whether we have the S in the acrony= m or not...
>
> Regards,
>
> Pascal
>
>> Le 8 d=C3=A9c. 2018 =C3=A0 08:08, S.V.R.Anand <anandsvr@iisc.ac.in> a =C3= =A9crit :
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I feel Detnet Forwarding sub-layer is very close to capturing the<= br> >> functionality, but Forwarding still overloaded as observed by Lou.=
>>
>> Given the wide range of mechanisms and lower layer services that t= his
>> layer works with, I wonder if it makes sense to use a generic term=
>> "convergence" in the name. It is not uncommon to come ac= ross this term
>> as part of a name in the context of a typical foo-layer.5. Just a<= br> >> thought. This said, I am still fine with Detnet Forwarding sub-lay= er.
>>
>> Regards
>> Anand
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sat, Dec 08, 2018 at 11:07:55AM +0800, Loa Andersson wrote:=
>>> Lou, et.al,.
>>>
>>>> On 2018-12-08 00:13, Lou Berger wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Focusing on the proposal:
>>>>
>>>>> In order to have another alternative on the table I pr= opose
>>>>> renaming "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to &qu= ot;DetNet Forwarding sub-layer"
>>>> This is a bit of a new usage for 'Forwarding' but = not totally --
>>>> thinking about FIBs.=C2=A0 My main reservation is that for= warding is
>>>> usually considered separately from queuing, while this sub= -layer
>>>> embodies both. I do accept that TE usually considers both<= br> >>>> forwarding/steering and queuing, and that some assume that=
>>>> sophisticated queuing is required for TE -- which is actua= lly
>>>> service dependent.
>>>>
>>>> Even with this caveat and my personal preference for the &= #39;TE'
>>>> option, I (as contributor) can live with "DetNet Forw= arding
>>>> sub-layer".
>>>
>>> Understanding that we want to pick good names, and that someti= mes
>>> this turns out to be "impossible".
>>>
>>> But after all a name is just a name.
>>>
>>> I can live with "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer".
>>>
>>> /Loa
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/7/2018 10:45 AM, J=C3=A1nos Farkas wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a similar concern with the change. It of course= depends on
>>>>> the definition of Traffic Engineering, but the term &q= uot;DetNet TE sub-layer"
>>>>> may imply to the reader that Traffic Engineering is a = must even for
>>>>> DetNet transit nodes. As far as I recall, the intentio= n is to make
>>>>> possible that DetNet transit nodes can be kept simple.= Depending on
>>>>> the actual DetNet service provided, DetNet transit nod= es can be
>>>>> actually simple.
>>>>>
>>>>> The idea behind the introduction of the two DetNet sub= -layers was
>>>>> to make it easier to tackle the problem. The lower lay= er provides
>>>>> simpler packet forwarding related functions, the highe= r DetNet
>>>>> Service sub-layer provides more complex DetNet service= related functions.
>>>>>
>>>>> In order to have another alternative on the table I pr= opose
>>>>> renaming "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to &qu= ot;DetNet Forwarding sub-layer"
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> Janos
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/20/2018 10:10 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/20/2018 3:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote:<= br> >>>>>>> This terminology is certainly appropriate for = TEAS. For DetNet,
>>>>>>> this seems to make the assertion that the DetN= et underlay is
>>>>>>> always traffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv= 6 (which is
>>>>>>> certainly possible using TE extensions for the= IGPs).
>>>>>> This is certainly a fair point and one that does l= ead me to have a
>>>>>> slight reservation about the change, that said, it= seems the
>>>>>> benefit out ways the downsides.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As long as people are OK with this assertion, = then I'm OK with it
>>>>>>> as well. That should be made clear in the arch= itecture spec where
>>>>>>> the term "DetNet TE sub-layer" is in= troduced/defined.
>>>>>> agreed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:29 PM Grossman, Etha= n A.
>>>>>>> <eagros@dolby.com <mailto:eagros@dolby.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I like it.
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ethan.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Original Messag= e-----
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: Pascal Thubert= (pthubert) <pth= ubert@cisco.com
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>= >
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sent: Tuesday, Novem= ber 20, 2018 10:27 AM
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: Lou Berger <<= a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net" target=3D"_blank">lberger@labn.net &= lt;mailto:lberger@lab= n.net>>;
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Scharf, Michael <= Michael= .Scharf@hs-esslingen.de
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:Michael.Scharf= @hs-esslingen.de>>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cc: detnet@ietf.org <mailto:detnet@ietf.org>;
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-det= net-architecture.all@ietf.org
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:d= raft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: RE: Transpo= rt sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet]
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tsvart last call rev= iew of
>>>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I support this chang= e;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pascal
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> -----Original M= essage-----
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> From: Lou Berge= r <lberger@labn.ne= t <mailto:lber= ger@labn.net>>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Sent: mardi 20 = novembre 2018 19:19
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> To: Pascal Thub= ert (pthubert) <= pthubert@cisco.com
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>= >; Scharf, Michael
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> <Michael.Scharf@hs-= esslingen.de
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:Michael.Scharf= @hs-esslingen.de>>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Cc: detnet@ietf.org <mailto:detnet@ietf.org>;=
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-det= net-architecture.all@ietf.org
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:d= raft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Subject: Transp= ort sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet]
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tsvart last
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> call review of = draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08)
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> ALL,
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> There is a desi= re to replace the word "Transport"
>>>>>>> from the DetNet
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Transport sub-l= ayer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport
>>>>>>> protocols.
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> In the TEAS WG = we had a similar discussion and we replaced
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Transport"= ;
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> with "Traf= fic Engineered (TE) ".
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> While a bit mor= e verbose, what do people think about this
>>>>>>> change?
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> To be clear, th= e suggestion is:
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> OLD
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0.
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0.
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0+----------------------------+
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 DetNet Service sub-layer=C2=A0 | PW, UDP, GRE
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0+----------------------------+
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0| DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs,
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MPLS SR
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0+----------------------------+
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0.
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0.
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Figure 4: DetNet ada= ptation to data plane
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> NEW
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0.
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0.
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0+----------------------------+
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 DetNet Service sub-layer=C2=A0 | PW, UDP, GRE
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0+----------------------------+
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 DetNet TE sub-layer=C2=A0 =C2=A0| IPv6, = IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs,
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MPLS SR
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0+----------------------------+
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0.
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0.
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Figure 4: DetNet ada= ptation to data plane
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Lou
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> detnet mailing list
>>>>>> detnet@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li= stinfo/detnet
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> detnet mailing list
>>>> detne= t@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/d= etnet
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Loa Andersson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: loa@pi.nu
>>> Senior MPLS Expert
>>> Bronze Dragon Consulting=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0phone: +46 739 81 21 64
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> detnet mailing list
>>> detnet@ie= tf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/det= net
> _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >

--


Loa Andersson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS Expert
Bronze Dragon Consulting=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pho= ne: +46 739 81 21 64

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--000000000000af5266057cab47de-- From nobody Mon Dec 10 06:29:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E399F130F20 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 06:29:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.758 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.758 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.46, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bYhBEX5z4YHU for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 06:29:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7E72130E8F for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 06:29:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=ericsson.com; s=mailgw201801; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@ericsson.com; t=1544452180; x=1547044180; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:CC:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ufxDMg461toCVzGcLjqZaFxCLPRdZkJoybwOOBjWPzk=; b=Px+oo2/pTUesRvNggX5DAnsgEoBIDoihuWXthWJoio4J8aRWaq3IIAZQbYmZUz+i qAL4akaaV3TBj5XsUObhPdPxJ6xHRWk5H/WHNT6MYY2aY//pWR3kbEJJ7E9EkBBo A3x1nFyoGWd1jWwomvE0n9DmFt39JkC3QMsETV1DSXQ=; X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-39c4e9e0000043c4-67-5c0e78549498 Received: from ESESBMB502.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.115]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 4F.5D.17348.4587E0C5; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 15:29:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB504.ericsson.se (153.88.183.165) by ESESBMB502.ericsson.se (153.88.183.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 15:29:39 +0100 Received: from [131.160.181.217] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.192) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 15.1.1466.3 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 15:29:39 +0100 To: Lou Berger , "Scharf, Michael" CC: "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> From: =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= Message-ID: <090ae5ba-e44c-f8fa-7259-5ab1b01fb23c@ericsson.com> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 15:29:39 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrALMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7sW5IBV+Mwc3Viha/P81msdg3axOL RUfzWyBrcTO7xaw9i1gcWD2aXv1j9Viy5CeTx4dNzWwBzFFcNimpOZllqUX6dglcGS9en2cv WHqQsWL3w5uMDYyNcxi7GDk5JARMJDrX9TB3MXJxCAkcYZQ4NLURLCEk8I1R4vYDeYjEMUaJ GZfmsIEkhAVqJVa8+8MOYosIhEu8WziVHaSIWWA9o8T2L3vZITp+MEq0PN8D1sEmYC9x99IG ZhCbF8hefOkCWDeLgKpEd+daMFtUIFbi05XFUDWCEidnPmHpYuTg4BSwkZi3mxckzCxgITFz /nlGCFteonnrbGYIW1zi1pP5TBBXq0l8evuQfQKj0Cwkk2YhaZ+FpH0WkvYFjCyrGEWLU4uT ctONjPRSizKTi4vz8/TyUks2MQLj4eCW3wY7GF8+dzzEKMDBqMTDy1LGFyPEmlhWXJl7iFGC g1lJhFc3jTdGiDclsbIqtSg/vqg0J7X4EKM0B4uSOK+fFlC1QHpiSWp2ampBahFMlomDU6qB 0UzhU0v3bQ6zIptF+x+HH1ZzO1mxWbGwJfVlaXzl1i8ZoTHthaHLp+0y0ojY8ivJO06jSEG9 5emCd5slFJVMHG/88P9v/nvCQjY7rhcOIiePPLAxW3lEIGnfk+0cMls6Us8tfXWn8mpOZDrL jF0n7v78UXz40z2p8osTn1wvOZNw9Xyi75uqDiWW4oxEQy3mouJEACPSmmqDAgAA Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change (was: Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:29:46 -0000 Hi, As I understand, there is confusion around two DetNet terms. We are removing "transport". The other one is "congestion" and "congestion protection". Brief description of congestion protection in Section 3.1:    Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along the path    of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. Congestion    protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, packet loss    due to output packet congestion within the network, but it can only    be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to a    maximum packet size and transmission rate.  Note that congestion    protection provided via congestion detection and notification is    explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it serves a    different set of applications.    Congestion protection addresses two of the DetNet QoS requirements:    latency and packet loss.  Given that DetNet nodes have a finite    amount of buffer space, congestion protection necessarily results in    a maximum end-to-end latency.  It also addresses the largest    contribution to packet loss, which is buffer congestion. Detailed description is in Section 3.2.1. We wanted to have a brief collective term for the mechanisms used to avoid queuing related packet loss (including buffer overflow etc.). Based on the discussions, we should have a term that does not include "congestion". ("Service Protection" is another DetNet term, hence we may consider a term without "protection" to minimize confusion.) I suggest to replace "congestion protection" with "queuing loss avoidance". After agreeing in the terminology cahnge (if any), the text has to be updated accordingly. What do you think? Best regards, Janos On 11/20/2018 1:11 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > Michael, > > I think we're getting somewhere and identifying where we have > disconnects and what may (and what may not) need to change in the > document.  My takeaways are: > > - The document needs a good 'scrub' of the congestion related > references to ensure that the document only makes statements on what > is actually done within a DetNet and the relationship with transport > protocols that use detnet (which are in fact outside the scope of the > DetNet WG).  I'll work with the authors and WG on this -- I see this > change as important, but editorial in nature. > > - We have a perception issue with at least one member of the TSV area > on the meaning and more importantly, implication, of the term "DetNet > *Transport* sub-layer".  While I don't disagree that a good portion of > the IETF thinks transport protocol (UDP/TCP) when they hear > "transport" there are plenty others, particularly in the routing area, > who understand that "transport" can refer to Transport Networks.  And > Transport Network is a well understood general industry term. The IETF > even has a bunch of RFCs that relate to Transport networks.  This > said, I think it reasonable to go back to the DetNet WG and discuss > changing the name of the "DetNet Transport sub-layer"  to avoid the > word "transport".  -- BTW we made a parallel change in the TEAS WG > when producing RFC8453. > > See below for detail response in-line. > > On 11/19/2018 5:15 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote: >> Lou, >> >>> -- >>> I wanted to take a step back from the multiple discussions that were >>> spawned by your review -- from a doc shepherd perspective, and see >>> where >>> we are.   I know that the authors have sent a -09 version that >>> addresses >>> some, but not all issues. >>> >>>   From the exchanges I've seen, I think the key remaining issues are >>> related to: >>> >>> (a) possibly introduction of congestion in the general internet if >>> packets were somehow to escape a detnet domain.  The source of this >>> congestion would be inelastic traffic using DetNet or due to congestion >>> loss that is masked by PREOF. >> These are two major issues that need to be addressed. Note that it >> may not be sufficient just to add a section on operational and >> deployment considerations. Also the existing text in the document >> will need to get aligned to normative guidance on how to avoid a >> congestion collapse. >> >> In -09, one example would be Section 3.1. "Primary goals defining the >> DetNet QoS" >> >>     Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along the >> path >>     of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. Congestion >>     protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, packet loss >>     due to output packet congestion within the network, but it can only >>     be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to a >>     maximum packet size and transmission rate.  Note that congestion >>     protection provided via congestion detection and notification is >>     explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it serves a >>     different set of applications. > >> At least the last sentence would contradict a better discussion of >> congestion in the document. For instance, it could just be removed. >> In any case, the current wording in the last sentence is not correct, >> as the IETF term for what is described in the last sentence is >> "congestion control". >> >> Another example would be  Section 3.2.1.1. "Eliminate congestion loss" >>       The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS assurances >> is to >>     reduce, or even completely eliminate, congestion within a DetNet >> node >>     as a cause of packet loss.  This can be achieved only by the >>     provision of sufficient buffer storage at each node through the >>     network to ensure that no packets are dropped due to a lack of >> buffer >>     storage.  Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled, i.e., its >>     transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion >>     notification. >> >> This section IMHO has to include a discussion of what happens in the >> (not expected) case that packets get dropped or that ECN marks are >> received. It is understood that this would not happen in normal >> operation of a DetNet network, but I believe just considering the >> error-free operation of a DetNet network is not sufficient for this >> document. At least for the risk of traffic that may escape from a >> DetNet network is inherently not sufficient to assume that the DetNet >> network is always error-free. > > I think these are examples of text that needs to be cleanup up and to > delineate what is done with a DetNet. > > >> As a result, addressing my concerns will most likely require editing >> several parts of the document. >> >> In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review comment "It is >> surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network robustness >> and safety" > > I have no idea what you mean by safety here.  Can you elaborate. > > >> covers more than just inelastic traffic that escapes from a DetNet >> network and masking of packet loss. Given that DetNet traffic may be >> extremely critical traffic, I really wonder why the document doesn't >> emphasize more the required robustness against failures *inside* the >> DetNet network as well as counter-measures. But this is something the >> WG needs to decide. As TSV-ART reviewer, I will be fine if the >> document clearly describes how the impact of failures will be >> isolated inside the DetNet network and will not put the general >> Internet at risk. > > I agree - I think, the document should be clear on it's scope and > relationship to general internet usage. > > >> >>> (b) The use of the term 'transport' in DetNet to refer to what is >>> basically a Traffic Engineered sub-network layer, such as is provided >>> with MPLS-TE or Optical Transport Networks. >> In the Internet architecture, the term 'transport' refers to Internet >> transport protocols. I doubt that the document can avoid discussing >> the implications of and interactions with Internet transport >> protocols such as UDP or TCP. As a result, I disagree that the >> document can use the term 'transport' to refer to traffic engineered >> sub-network layers. > > I think this is covered by my comment above. > > >>  From a TSV-ART point of view, the document can either only use the >> term "transport" for Internet transport protocols and use another >> term for sub-network layers (as handled in the *routing* area of the >> IETF), or the document has to clearly distinguish between the >> Internet transport layer and other uses of the term "transport" and >> explain the overlap. I believe the former would be less confusing, >> but I will leave it up to the TSV ADs to discuss terminology overlap >> in the IESG. As TSV-ART reviewer I insist that the document uses the >> terms "transport layer" and "transport protocol" only when referring >> to the Internet transport layer. > > I'm personally okay with a name change and even willing to push this > discussion within the WG, but as said above, "Transport Network" is a > generally understood industry term that is also used in RFCs -- so > we'll have to see what where WG consensus ends up. > >> >>> Do you have any other issues that that are critical to be addressed >>> before this work moves forward?  If so which? >> Regarding Section 4.4 I have already deferred the discussion to the >> IESG. The TSV-ART review comment is that the IESG needs to carefully >> look at the concepts, terminology, and references in section 4.4. >> >> Regarding my other comments, I acknowledge that -09 is a step >> forward. But given the cross-dependencies e.g. regarding terminology >> and definitions, I will need to read the text completely once there >> is a proposal how to address my review. As noted in my review, I >> believe the document must use terminology clearly and consistently. >> As example, a statement in -09 such as "Network nodes supporting >> DetNet flows have to implement some of the DetNet capabilities (not >> necessarily all) in order to treat DetNet flows such that their QoS >> requirements are met" is IMHO too vague. But in such cases it depends >> whether there is precise normative guidance elsewhere. And this >> requires looking at the text as a whole. > > I think the next steps lie with me and the WG.  We'll let you know > once there is a new version.  Of course, you can also contribute to > the WG discussion on the topic. > > Thanks, > > Lou > >> >> Best regards >> >> Michael >> >> >> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Lou >>> >>> On 9/28/2018 6:24 PM, Michael Scharf wrote: >>>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf >>>> Review result: Ready with Issues >>>> >>>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" >>>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall framework for >>>> Deterministic Networking. >>>> >>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues as >>> detailed below. >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> Major issues: >>>> >>>> * It seems that DetNet cannot easily be deployed in the Internet >>> without >>>> additional means. Thus, for a baseline document, one could expect >>> some >>>> explanation on the requirements of deploying DetNet in a network. >>> DetNet >>>> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices >>> transporting DetNet >>>> traffic. That assumption should be explicitly spelt out early in the >>> document, >>>> e.g., in the introduction. There also needs to be an explicit >>> discussion of the >>>> implications if not the whole network is aware of or supports DetNet. >>> There is >>>> some text in Section 4.2.2 and Section 4.3.3, but I believe >>> additional explicit >>>> discussion is needed at a prominant place. For instance, can use of >>> DetNet do >>>> harm to parts of a network not supporting DetNet? As a side note, >>> when TCPM >>>> published RFC 8257, the following disclaimer was added: "DCTCP, as >>> described in >>>> this specification, is applicable to deployments in controlled >>> environments >>>> like data centers, but it must not be deployed over the public >>> Internet without >>>> additional measures." I wonder if a similar disclaimer is needed for >>> DetNet. If >>>> there is an implicit assumption that DetNet will  be used in >>> homogenous >>>> environments with mostly DetNet-aware devices within the same >>> organization, >>>> such an assumption should be made explicit. >>>> >>>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network >>> robustness >>>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For instance, >>>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet replication >>> could >>>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How does the >>> DetNet >>>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. if >>> the topology >>>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be solved >>> by >>>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are >>> corresponding >>>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that filters and >>> policers >>>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still assumes >>> consistently >>>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And Section >>> 3.3.2 is >>>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" without >>> stating >>>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further solutions, >>> such as >>>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not discussed? >>>> >>>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of failures to >>> the QoS of >>>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to protect non- >>> DetNet parts >>>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. Solutions to >>> this >>>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic (e.g., in >>> case of >>>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not discussed at >>> all in the >>>> document? >>>> >>>> * Regarding security, an architecture like DetNet probably requires >>> that only >>>> authenticated and authorized end systems have access to the data >>> plane. The >>>> security considerations only briefly mention the control aspect ("the >>>> authentication and authorization of the controlling systems"). >>>> >>>> * For an architecture document, the lack of clarity and consistency >>> regarding >>>> terminology is concerning. This specifically applies to the case of >>> incomplete >>>> networks (as per Section 4.2.2 and 4.3.3) that include "DetNet- >>> unaware nodes". >>>> The document introduces terms such as "DetNet intermediate nodes" but >>> then >>>> repeatedly uses generic terms such as "node" or "hop" that may >>> include >>>> DetNet-unaware nodes. For instance, for incomplete networks, a >>> sentence such as >>>> "The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS assurances is to >>> reduce, or >>>> even completely eliminate, congestion within a node as a cause of >>> packet loss" >>>> seems to only apply to "DetNet transit nodes" but not "DetNet-unaware >>> nodes". >>>> Similar ambiguity exist for other use of the terms "hop" and "node", >>> which may >>>> or may not include DetNet-unaware nodes. It is unclear why the >>> document does >>>> not consistently use the terminology introduced in Section 2.1 in all >>> sections >>>> and clearly distinguishes cases with and without DetNet support. >>>> >>>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational RFC on >>> IRTF stream, >>>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., "planes"). >>> This is >>>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should probably >>> refer to >>>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC 7491, albeit >>> there is >>>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, Section 4.4 >>> is by and >>>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not specific to >>> DetNet. >>>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the concepts >>> introduced in >>>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology or >>> discuss >>>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly at the >>> end that >>>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet architecture. >>> It is not >>>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 could >>> be removed >>>> from the document without impacting the rest of the document. >>>> >>>> Minor issues: >>>> >>>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" >>>> >>>>     The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in the IETF, >>> e.g. >>>>     originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. "transport >>> network" is >>>>     used in the IETF for different technologies in different areas, I >>> think the >>>>     term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer to >>> transport >>>>     protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find the term >>> "DetNet >>>>     transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion is easy >>> to see e.g. >>>>     in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as per RFC >>> 1122) sits >>>>     on top of "transport". >>>> >>>>     Based on the document it also may be solution/implementation >>> specific whether >>>>     the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate protocol layer >>> compared >>>>     to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me why the >>> word >>>>     "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination "transport >>> layer". >>>>     To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport protocol") >>> should be >>>>     used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with RFC 1122. >>> But this is >>>>     probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. >>>> >>>> * Page 9 >>>> >>>>      A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation >>> and/or >>>>      scheduling, >>>> >>>>     This is just one of several examples for inconsistent use of >>> terminology. >>>>     What is a "DetNet node"? That term is not introduced in Section >>> 2.1 >>>> * Page 14 >>>> >>>>      A DetNet network supports the dedication of a high proportion >>> (e.g. >>>>      75%) of the network bandwidth to DetNet flows. >>>> >>>>     The 75% value is not reasoned. What prevents using 99% of the >>> bandwidth for >>>>     DetNet traffic? >>>> >>>> * Page 15: Figure 2 >>>> >>>>     If the term "transport layer" cannot be avoided, the labels in >>> this figure >>>>     should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport layer". >>>> >>>> * Page 18: Figure 4 >>>> >>>>     As already mentioned earlier, Figure 4 is confusing. UDP is a >>> transport >>>>     protocol. If the term "transport" cannot be avoided, the labels in >>> this >>>>     figure should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport". >>>> >>>> * Page 23 >>>> >>>>      If the source transmits less data than this limit >>>>      allows, the unused resource such as link bandwidth can be made >>>>      available by the system to non-DetNet packets. >>>> >>>>     Could there be additional requirements on the use of unused >>> resources by >>>>     non-DetNet packets, e.g., regarding preemption? I am just >>> wondering... If >>>>     that was possible, a statement like "... can be made available by >>> the system >>>>     to non-DetNet packets as long as all guarantees are fulfilled" >>> would be on >>>>     the safe side, no? >>>> >>>> * Page 27: >>>> >>>>      DetNet achieves congestion protection and bounded delivery >>> latency by >>>>      reserving bandwidth and buffer resources at every hop along the >>> path >>>>      of the DetNet flow. >>>> >>>>     Why does this sentence use the word "hop"? As far as I understand, >>> in DetNet >>>>     bandwidth and buffer resources are reserved in each DetNet >>> intermediate node. >>>>     If there were hops over IP routers not being DetNet intermediate >>> nodes, no >>>>     resources would be reserved there. As per Section 4.3.3, it is >>> possible to >>>>     deploy DetNet this way. And obviously there can be resource >>> bottlenecks below >>>>     IP, on devices that are not routers... So does "hop" here refer to >>> IP router >>>>     hops or also to devices not processing IP (or IP/MPLS)? >>>> >>>> * Page 27: >>>> >>>>      Standard queuing and transmission selection algorithms allow a >>>>      central controller to compute the latency contribution of each >>>>      transit node to the end-to-end latency, ... >>>> >>>>     The text does not explain why a _central_ controller is needed for >>> this >>>>     computation. Why would a distributed control plane not be able to >>> realize >>>>     this computation. Isn't this implementation-specific? >>>> >>>> * Page 32 >>>> >>>>     To somebody who is not deeply familiar with DetNet, it is >>> impossible to parse >>>>     the description of the examples in Section 4.7.3. For instance, >>> "VID + >>>>     multicast MAC address" is not introduced. I think this example >>> must be >>>>     expaned with additional context and explanation to be useful to >>> readers. >>>> * Page 34 >>>> >>>>      There are three classes of information that a central controller >>> or >>>>      distributed control plane needs to know that can only be obtained >>>>      from the end systems and/or nodes in the network. >>>> >>>>     Wouldn't it be sufficient to state "Provisioning of DetNet >>> requires knowledge >>>>     about ...". Does it matter in this context whether the >>> provisioning is done >>>>     by a central controller or a distributed control plane? For >>> instance, could >>>>     the same paragraph also apply to a network that uses _multiple_ >>> central >>>>     controllers, or hybrid combinations of central controllers and >>> distributed >>>>     control planes? In general, an architecture document should be >>> agnostic to >>>>     implementation aspects unless there is a specific need. In this >>> specific >>>>     case, I fail to see a need to discuss the realization of the >>> control plane of >>>>     a network. >>>> >>>> Editorial nits: >>>> >>>> * Page 9: >>>> >>>>      The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 provide the >>>>      necessary regulation of transmissions by an end system or >>>>      intermediate node to provide congestion protection. The >>> allocation >>>>      of the bandwidth and buffers for a DetNet flow requires >>> provisioning >>>>      A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation >>> and/or >>>>      scheduling, that might otherwise be over-subscribed and trigger >>> the >>>>      rejection of a reservation. >>>> >>>>     Probably a full stop is missing after "provisioning". >>>> >>>> * Page 11: "... along separate (disjoint non-SRLG) paths ..." >>>> >>>>     I find this confusing. I would understand e.g. "along separate >>>>     (SRLG-disjoint) paths". >>>> >>>> * Page 34: >>>> >>>>      When using a peer- >>>>      to-peer control plane, some of this information may be required >>> by a >>>>      system's neighbors in the network. >>>> >>>>     Would "acquired" be a better term? >>>> >>>> * Page 34: >>>> >>>>      o  The identity of the system's neighbors, and the >>> characteristics of >>>>         the link(s) between the systems, including the length (in >>>>         nanoseconds) of the link(s). >>>> >>>>     "Latency" or "delay" would probably be a better terms if the value >>> is >>>>     measured in nanoseconds. >>>> >>>> * Page 35: >>>> >>>>      DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does >>> not >>>>      directly raise any new privacy considerations. >>>> >>>>     Broken sentence >>>> >>>> * Please expand acronyms on first use (e.g., OTN) >>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Mon Dec 10 06:48:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 214B7130F21; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 06:48:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.96 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.96 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.46, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lJfslRrztxuP; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 06:47:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from 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with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 08:47:54 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: =?utf-8?B?SsOhbm9zIEZhcmthcw==?= , Lou Berger , "Scharf, Michael" CC: "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Congestion Protection name change (was: Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) Thread-Index: AQHUkJTROA3IK2x5IU2ShL97SX5FdqV4C3kA Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:47:30 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:46:39 +0000 Message-ID: References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <090ae5ba-e44c-f8fa-7259-5ab1b01fb23c@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <090ae5ba-e44c-f8fa-7259-5ab1b01fb23c@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.68.223.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.13, xch-rcd-003.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change (was: Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:48:02 -0000 VGhlIHByb2JsZW0gSsOhbm9zIGlzIHRoYXQgd2UgZG8gbm90IG9ubHkgYXZvaWQgbG9zcy4gV2Ug YWxzbyBjb250cm9sIGxhdGVuY3kuIFNvICJxdWV1aW5nIGxvc3MiIGlzIHRvbyBsaW1pdGF0aW9u Lg0KV2UgYXJlIHByb3RlY3RpbmcgdGhlIHJlc291cmNlcyB0aGF0IGFyZSBuZWNlc3NhcnksIG9y IHByb3ZpZGluZyBndWFyYW50ZWVzIHRoYXQgdGhleSBhcmUgYXZhaWxhYmxlLiBUbyBwcm92aWRl IHRoZSBzZXJ2aWNlLg0KTWF5YmUgInNlcnZpY2UgZ3VhcmFudGVlcyIgY291bGQgYmUgZ29vZD8N 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G. Malis" Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:28:16 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?J=C3=A1nos_Farkas?= , Lou Berger , Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de, Transport Area Review Team , detnet WG , draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ddcaa9057cac9d1e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change (was: Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 15:28:32 -0000 --000000000000ddcaa9057cac9d1e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since we're guaranteeing a particular level of service as generally used in SLAs, I would prefer the term "service level guarantee", which includes bounds on packet delay and packet loss. If we want, we can extend the definition to include examples of the mechanisms used to provide the guarantee, such as queue management, link and node resource management, shaping, preemption, scheduling, and so on, but we don't have to. Cheers, Andy On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:48 AM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) < pthubert@cisco.com> wrote: > The problem J=C3=A1nos is that we do not only avoid loss. We also control > latency. So "queuing loss" is too limitation. > We are protecting the resources that are necessary, or providing > guarantees that they are available. To provide the service. > Maybe "service guarantees" could be good? > Pascal > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: J=C3=A1nos Farkas > > Sent: lundi 10 d=C3=A9cembre 2018 18:30 > > To: Lou Berger ; Scharf, Michael > esslingen.de> > > Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet- > > architecture.all@ietf.org > > Subject: Congestion Protection name change (was: Re: [Detnet] Tsvart > last call > > review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > > > > Hi, > > > > As I understand, there is confusion around two DetNet terms. > > We are removing "transport". > > > > The other one is "congestion" and "congestion protection". > > > > Brief description of congestion protection in Section 3.1: > > > > Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along the pa= th > > of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. Congestion > > protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, packet los= s > > due to output packet congestion within the network, but it can only > > be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to a > > maximum packet size and transmission rate. Note that congestion > > protection provided via congestion detection and notification is > > explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it serves a > > different set of applications. > > > > Congestion protection addresses two of the DetNet QoS requirements: > > latency and packet loss. Given that DetNet nodes have a finite > > amount of buffer space, congestion protection necessarily results i= n > > a maximum end-to-end latency. It also addresses the largest > > contribution to packet loss, which is buffer congestion. > > > > Detailed description is in Section 3.2.1. > > > > We wanted to have a brief collective term for the mechanisms used to > avoid > > queuing related packet loss (including buffer overflow etc.). > > > > Based on the discussions, we should have a term that does not include > > "congestion". > > ("Service Protection" is another DetNet term, hence we may consider a > term > > without "protection" to minimize confusion.) > > > > I suggest to replace "congestion protection" with "queuing loss > avoidance". > > > > After agreeing in the terminology cahnge (if any), the text has to be > updated > > accordingly. > > > > What do you think? > > > > Best regards, > > Janos > > --000000000000ddcaa9057cac9d1e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Since we're guaranteeing a particular level of service= as generally used in SLAs, I would prefer the term "service level gua= rantee", which includes bounds on packet delay and packet loss.=C2=A0<= div>
If we want, we can extend the definition to include exam= ples of the mechanisms used to provide the guarantee, such as queue managem= ent, link and node resource management, shaping, preemption, scheduling, an= d so on, but we don't have to.

Cheers,
And= y

On Mon, Dec 10, 2018= at 9:48 AM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:
The problem J=C3=A1nos is that we do not only avoid = loss. We also control latency. So "queuing loss" is too limitatio= n.
We are protecting the resources that are necessary, or providing guarantees= that they are available. To provide the service.
Maybe "service guarantees" could be good?
Pascal

> -----Original Message-----
> From: J=C3=A1nos Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com>
> Sent: lundi 10 d=C3=A9cembre 2018 18:30
> To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>; Scharf, Michael <Michael.Scharf@hs-
> e= sslingen.de>
> Cc: tsv-art@ietf= .org; detnet@ietf.= org; draft-ietf-detnet-
> archite= cture.all@ietf.org
> Subject: Congestion Protection name change (was: Re: [Detnet] Tsvart l= ast call
> review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08)
>
> Hi,
>
> As I understand, there is confusion around two DetNet terms.
> We are removing "transport".
>
> The other one is "congestion" and "congestion protectio= n".
>
> Brief description of congestion protection in Section 3.1:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 Congestion protection operates by allocating resour= ces along the path
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwi= dth. Congestion
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates enti= rely, packet loss
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 due to output packet congestion within the network,= but it can only
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the= source to a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 maximum packet size and transmission rate.=C2=A0 No= te that congestion
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 protection provided via congestion detection and no= tification is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, a= s it serves a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 different set of applications.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 Congestion protection addresses two of the DetNet Q= oS requirements:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 latency and packet loss.=C2=A0 Given that DetNet no= des have a finite
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 amount of buffer space, congestion protection neces= sarily results in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 a maximum end-to-end latency.=C2=A0 It also address= es the largest
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 contribution to packet loss, which is buffer conges= tion.
>
> Detailed description is in Section 3.2.1.
>
> We wanted to have a brief collective term for the mechanisms used to a= void
> queuing related packet loss (including buffer overflow etc.).
>
> Based on the discussions, we should have a term that does not include<= br> > "congestion".
> ("Service Protection" is another DetNet term, hence we may c= onsider a term
> without "protection" to minimize confusion.)
>
> I suggest to replace "congestion protection" with "queu= ing loss avoidance".
>
> After agreeing in the terminology cahnge (if any), the text has to be = updated
> accordingly.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Best regards,
> Janos

--000000000000ddcaa9057cac9d1e-- From nobody Mon Dec 10 09:25:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54C511310EF for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 09:25:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AqDkwuEA2l9G for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 09:25:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from outbound-ss-579.bluehost.com (outbound-ss-579.bluehost.com [74.220.218.175]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33C061310F4 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 09:25:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw14.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.14]) by gproxy6.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 233B21E53B1 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:16:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id WPA2gjEOF6vZjWPA2gJRNP; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:16:03 -0700 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Subject: References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Date:CC:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=gJOpGpPVf7rNDpdIPKW5zTGmEczbDuJHkVjFYdy3eWM=; b=EO/q05EdJ3GPPrQpCIZbj9jWsc 764OHbx3SYTpy6nIm71fpJTYdEDAM5jzCg6s0QABIrQ4otnQ2fWi0rxZGeDbvWGgEzDw6a0P/ztPf HTqeHOavT6+UyrbIkks8XkRYb; Received: from [172.58.184.16] (port=49729 helo=[IPV6:2607:fb90:6482:75ab:0:f:4962:a801]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gWPA1-004LQW-QX; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:16:02 -0700 From: Lou Berger To: =?UTF-8?B?SsOhbm9zIEZhcmthcw==?= CC: , Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 12:15:59 -0500 Message-ID: <167991e4c98.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <090ae5ba-e44c-f8fa-7259-5ab1b01fb23c@ericsson.com> References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <090ae5ba-e44c-f8fa-7259-5ab1b01fb23c@ericsson.com> User-Agent: AquaMail/1.17.0-1324 (build: 101700010) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 172.58.184.16 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gWPA1-004LQW-QX X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPV6:2607:fb90:6482:75ab:0:f:4962:a801]) [172.58.184.16]:49729 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 2 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change (was: Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 17:25:44 -0000 Fwiw in the te world, we normally call this "resource allocation". As a contributor, I'd be comfortable with that term or "resource management". Lou ---------- On December 10, 2018 9:30:20 AM János Farkas wrote: > Hi, > > As I understand, there is confusion around two DetNet terms. > We are removing "transport". > > The other one is "congestion" and "congestion protection". > > Brief description of congestion protection in Section 3.1: > >    Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along the path >    of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. Congestion >    protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, packet loss >    due to output packet congestion within the network, but it can only >    be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to a >    maximum packet size and transmission rate.  Note that congestion >    protection provided via congestion detection and notification is >    explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it serves a >    different set of applications. > >    Congestion protection addresses two of the DetNet QoS requirements: >    latency and packet loss.  Given that DetNet nodes have a finite >    amount of buffer space, congestion protection necessarily results in >    a maximum end-to-end latency.  It also addresses the largest >    contribution to packet loss, which is buffer congestion. > > Detailed description is in Section 3.2.1. > > We wanted to have a brief collective term for the mechanisms used to > avoid queuing related packet loss (including buffer overflow etc.). > > Based on the discussions, we should have a term that does not include > "congestion". > ("Service Protection" is another DetNet term, hence we may consider a > term without "protection" to minimize confusion.) > > I suggest to replace "congestion protection" with "queuing loss avoidance". > > After agreeing in the terminology cahnge (if any), the text has to be > updated accordingly. > > What do you think? > > Best regards, > Janos > > > On 11/20/2018 1:11 PM, Lou Berger wrote: >> Michael, >> >> I think we're getting somewhere and identifying where we have >> disconnects and what may (and what may not) need to change in the >> document.  My takeaways are: >> >> - The document needs a good 'scrub' of the congestion related >> references to ensure that the document only makes statements on what >> is actually done within a DetNet and the relationship with transport >> protocols that use detnet (which are in fact outside the scope of the >> DetNet WG).  I'll work with the authors and WG on this -- I see this >> change as important, but editorial in nature. >> >> - We have a perception issue with at least one member of the TSV area >> on the meaning and more importantly, implication, of the term "DetNet >> *Transport* sub-layer".  While I don't disagree that a good portion of >> the IETF thinks transport protocol (UDP/TCP) when they hear >> "transport" there are plenty others, particularly in the routing area, >> who understand that "transport" can refer to Transport Networks.  And >> Transport Network is a well understood general industry term. The IETF >> even has a bunch of RFCs that relate to Transport networks.  This >> said, I think it reasonable to go back to the DetNet WG and discuss >> changing the name of the "DetNet Transport sub-layer"  to avoid the >> word "transport".  -- BTW we made a parallel change in the TEAS WG >> when producing RFC8453. >> >> See below for detail response in-line. >> >> On 11/19/2018 5:15 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote: >>> Lou, >>> >>>> -- >>>> I wanted to take a step back from the multiple discussions that were >>>> spawned by your review -- from a doc shepherd perspective, and see >>>> where >>>> we are.   I know that the authors have sent a -09 version that >>>> addresses >>>> some, but not all issues. >>>> >>>>   From the exchanges I've seen, I think the key remaining issues are >>>> related to: >>>> >>>> (a) possibly introduction of congestion in the general internet if >>>> packets were somehow to escape a detnet domain.  The source of this >>>> congestion would be inelastic traffic using DetNet or due to congestion >>>> loss that is masked by PREOF. >>> These are two major issues that need to be addressed. Note that it >>> may not be sufficient just to add a section on operational and >>> deployment considerations. Also the existing text in the document >>> will need to get aligned to normative guidance on how to avoid a >>> congestion collapse. >>> >>> In -09, one example would be Section 3.1. "Primary goals defining the >>> DetNet QoS" >>> >>>     Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along the >>> path >>>     of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. Congestion >>>     protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, packet loss >>>     due to output packet congestion within the network, but it can only >>>     be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to a >>>     maximum packet size and transmission rate.  Note that congestion >>>     protection provided via congestion detection and notification is >>>     explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it serves a >>>     different set of applications. >> >>> At least the last sentence would contradict a better discussion of >>> congestion in the document. For instance, it could just be removed. >>> In any case, the current wording in the last sentence is not correct, >>> as the IETF term for what is described in the last sentence is >>> "congestion control". >>> >>> Another example would be  Section 3.2.1.1. "Eliminate congestion loss" >>>       The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS assurances >>> is to >>>     reduce, or even completely eliminate, congestion within a DetNet >>> node >>>     as a cause of packet loss.  This can be achieved only by the >>>     provision of sufficient buffer storage at each node through the >>>     network to ensure that no packets are dropped due to a lack of >>> buffer >>>     storage.  Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled, i.e., its >>>     transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion >>>     notification. >>> >>> This section IMHO has to include a discussion of what happens in the >>> (not expected) case that packets get dropped or that ECN marks are >>> received. It is understood that this would not happen in normal >>> operation of a DetNet network, but I believe just considering the >>> error-free operation of a DetNet network is not sufficient for this >>> document. At least for the risk of traffic that may escape from a >>> DetNet network is inherently not sufficient to assume that the DetNet >>> network is always error-free. >> >> I think these are examples of text that needs to be cleanup up and to >> delineate what is done with a DetNet. >> >> >>> As a result, addressing my concerns will most likely require editing >>> several parts of the document. >>> >>> In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review comment "It is >>> surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network robustness >>> and safety" >> >> I have no idea what you mean by safety here.  Can you elaborate. >> >> >>> covers more than just inelastic traffic that escapes from a DetNet >>> network and masking of packet loss. Given that DetNet traffic may be >>> extremely critical traffic, I really wonder why the document doesn't >>> emphasize more the required robustness against failures *inside* the >>> DetNet network as well as counter-measures. But this is something the >>> WG needs to decide. As TSV-ART reviewer, I will be fine if the >>> document clearly describes how the impact of failures will be >>> isolated inside the DetNet network and will not put the general >>> Internet at risk. >> >> I agree - I think, the document should be clear on it's scope and >> relationship to general internet usage. >> >> >>> >>>> (b) The use of the term 'transport' in DetNet to refer to what is >>>> basically a Traffic Engineered sub-network layer, such as is provided >>>> with MPLS-TE or Optical Transport Networks. >>> In the Internet architecture, the term 'transport' refers to Internet >>> transport protocols. I doubt that the document can avoid discussing >>> the implications of and interactions with Internet transport >>> protocols such as UDP or TCP. As a result, I disagree that the >>> document can use the term 'transport' to refer to traffic engineered >>> sub-network layers. >> >> I think this is covered by my comment above. >> >> >>>  From a TSV-ART point of view, the document can either only use the >>> term "transport" for Internet transport protocols and use another >>> term for sub-network layers (as handled in the *routing* area of the >>> IETF), or the document has to clearly distinguish between the >>> Internet transport layer and other uses of the term "transport" and >>> explain the overlap. I believe the former would be less confusing, >>> but I will leave it up to the TSV ADs to discuss terminology overlap >>> in the IESG. As TSV-ART reviewer I insist that the document uses the >>> terms "transport layer" and "transport protocol" only when referring >>> to the Internet transport layer. >> >> I'm personally okay with a name change and even willing to push this >> discussion within the WG, but as said above, "Transport Network" is a >> generally understood industry term that is also used in RFCs -- so >> we'll have to see what where WG consensus ends up. >> >>> >>>> Do you have any other issues that that are critical to be addressed >>>> before this work moves forward?  If so which? >>> Regarding Section 4.4 I have already deferred the discussion to the >>> IESG. The TSV-ART review comment is that the IESG needs to carefully >>> look at the concepts, terminology, and references in section 4.4. >>> >>> Regarding my other comments, I acknowledge that -09 is a step >>> forward. But given the cross-dependencies e.g. regarding terminology >>> and definitions, I will need to read the text completely once there >>> is a proposal how to address my review. As noted in my review, I >>> believe the document must use terminology clearly and consistently. >>> As example, a statement in -09 such as "Network nodes supporting >>> DetNet flows have to implement some of the DetNet capabilities (not >>> necessarily all) in order to treat DetNet flows such that their QoS >>> requirements are met" is IMHO too vague. But in such cases it depends >>> whether there is precise normative guidance elsewhere. And this >>> requires looking at the text as a whole. >> >> I think the next steps lie with me and the WG.  We'll let you know >> once there is a new version.  Of course, you can also contribute to >> the WG discussion on the topic. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Lou >> >>> >>> Best regards >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> Lou >>>> >>>> On 9/28/2018 6:24 PM, Michael Scharf wrote: >>>>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf >>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues >>>>> >>>>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" >>>>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall framework for >>>>> Deterministic Networking. >>>>> >>>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues as >>>> detailed below. >>>>> Michael >>>>> >>>>> Major issues: >>>>> >>>>> * It seems that DetNet cannot easily be deployed in the Internet >>>> without >>>>> additional means. Thus, for a baseline document, one could expect >>>> some >>>>> explanation on the requirements of deploying DetNet in a network. >>>> DetNet >>>>> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices >>>> transporting DetNet >>>>> traffic. That assumption should be explicitly spelt out early in the >>>> document, >>>>> e.g., in the introduction. There also needs to be an explicit >>>> discussion of the >>>>> implications if not the whole network is aware of or supports DetNet. >>>> There is >>>>> some text in Section 4.2.2 and Section 4.3.3, but I believe >>>> additional explicit >>>>> discussion is needed at a prominant place. For instance, can use of >>>> DetNet do >>>>> harm to parts of a network not supporting DetNet? As a side note, >>>> when TCPM >>>>> published RFC 8257, the following disclaimer was added: "DCTCP, as >>>> described in >>>>> this specification, is applicable to deployments in controlled >>>> environments >>>>> like data centers, but it must not be deployed over the public >>>> Internet without >>>>> additional measures." I wonder if a similar disclaimer is needed for >>>> DetNet. If >>>>> there is an implicit assumption that DetNet will  be used in >>>> homogenous >>>>> environments with mostly DetNet-aware devices within the same >>>> organization, >>>>> such an assumption should be made explicit. >>>>> >>>>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network >>>> robustness >>>>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For instance, >>>>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet replication >>>> could >>>>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How does the >>>> DetNet >>>>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. if >>>> the topology >>>>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be solved >>>> by >>>>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are >>>> corresponding >>>>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that filters and >>>> policers >>>>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still assumes >>>> consistently >>>>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And Section >>>> 3.3.2 is >>>>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" without >>>> stating >>>>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further solutions, >>>> such as >>>>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not discussed? >>>>> >>>>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of failures to >>>> the QoS of >>>>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to protect non- >>>> DetNet parts >>>>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. Solutions to >>>> this >>>>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic (e.g., in >>>> case of >>>>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not discussed at >>>> all in the >>>>> document? >>>>> >>>>> * Regarding security, an architecture like DetNet probably requires >>>> that only >>>>> authenticated and authorized end systems have access to the data >>>> plane. The >>>>> security considerations only briefly mention the control aspect ("the >>>>> authentication and authorization of the controlling systems"). >>>>> >>>>> * For an architecture document, the lack of clarity and consistency >>>> regarding >>>>> terminology is concerning. This specifically applies to the case of >>>> incomplete >>>>> networks (as per Section 4.2.2 and 4.3.3) that include "DetNet- >>>> unaware nodes". >>>>> The document introduces terms such as "DetNet intermediate nodes" but >>>> then >>>>> repeatedly uses generic terms such as "node" or "hop" that may >>>> include >>>>> DetNet-unaware nodes. For instance, for incomplete networks, a >>>> sentence such as >>>>> "The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS assurances is to >>>> reduce, or >>>>> even completely eliminate, congestion within a node as a cause of >>>> packet loss" >>>>> seems to only apply to "DetNet transit nodes" but not "DetNet-unaware >>>> nodes". >>>>> Similar ambiguity exist for other use of the terms "hop" and "node", >>>> which may >>>>> or may not include DetNet-unaware nodes. It is unclear why the >>>> document does >>>>> not consistently use the terminology introduced in Section 2.1 in all >>>> sections >>>>> and clearly distinguishes cases with and without DetNet support. >>>>> >>>>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational RFC on >>>> IRTF stream, >>>>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., "planes"). >>>> This is >>>>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should probably >>>> refer to >>>>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC 7491, albeit >>>> there is >>>>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, Section 4.4 >>>> is by and >>>>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not specific to >>>> DetNet. >>>>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the concepts >>>> introduced in >>>>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology or >>>> discuss >>>>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly at the >>>> end that >>>>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet architecture. >>>> It is not >>>>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 could >>>> be removed >>>>> from the document without impacting the rest of the document. >>>>> >>>>> Minor issues: >>>>> >>>>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" >>>>> >>>>>     The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in the IETF, >>>> e.g. >>>>>     originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. "transport >>>> network" is >>>>>     used in the IETF for different technologies in different areas, I >>>> think the >>>>>     term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer to >>>> transport >>>>>     protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find the term >>>> "DetNet >>>>>     transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion is easy >>>> to see e.g. >>>>>     in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as per RFC >>>> 1122) sits >>>>>     on top of "transport". >>>>> >>>>>     Based on the document it also may be solution/implementation >>>> specific whether >>>>>     the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate protocol layer >>>> compared >>>>>     to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me why the >>>> word >>>>>     "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination "transport >>>> layer". >>>>>     To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport protocol") >>>> should be >>>>>     used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with RFC 1122. >>>> But this is >>>>>     probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. >>>>> >>>>> * Page 9 >>>>> >>>>>      A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation >>>> and/or >>>>>      scheduling, >>>>> >>>>>     This is just one of several examples for inconsistent use of >>>> terminology. >>>>>     What is a "DetNet node"? That term is not introduced in Section >>>> 2.1 >>>>> * Page 14 >>>>> >>>>>      A DetNet network supports the dedication of a high proportion >>>> (e.g. >>>>>      75%) of the network bandwidth to DetNet flows. >>>>> >>>>>     The 75% value is not reasoned. What prevents using 99% of the >>>> bandwidth for >>>>>     DetNet traffic? >>>>> >>>>> * Page 15: Figure 2 >>>>> >>>>>     If the term "transport layer" cannot be avoided, the labels in >>>> this figure >>>>>     should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport layer". >>>>> >>>>> * Page 18: Figure 4 >>>>> >>>>>     As already mentioned earlier, Figure 4 is confusing. UDP is a >>>> transport >>>>>     protocol. If the term "transport" cannot be avoided, the labels in >>>> this >>>>>     figure should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport". >>>>> >>>>> * Page 23 >>>>> >>>>>      If the source transmits less data than this limit >>>>>      allows, the unused resource such as link bandwidth can be made >>>>>      available by the system to non-DetNet packets. >>>>> >>>>>     Could there be additional requirements on the use of unused >>>> resources by >>>>>     non-DetNet packets, e.g., regarding preemption? I am just >>>> wondering... If >>>>>     that was possible, a statement like "... can be made available by >>>> the system >>>>>     to non-DetNet packets as long as all guarantees are fulfilled" >>>> would be on >>>>>     the safe side, no? >>>>> >>>>> * Page 27: >>>>> >>>>>      DetNet achieves congestion protection and bounded delivery >>>> latency by >>>>>      reserving bandwidth and buffer resources at every hop along the >>>> path >>>>>      of the DetNet flow. >>>>> >>>>>     Why does this sentence use the word "hop"? As far as I understand, >>>> in DetNet >>>>>     bandwidth and buffer resources are reserved in each DetNet >>>> intermediate node. >>>>>     If there were hops over IP routers not being DetNet intermediate >>>> nodes, no >>>>>     resources would be reserved there. As per Section 4.3.3, it is >>>> possible to >>>>>     deploy DetNet this way. And obviously there can be resource >>>> bottlenecks below >>>>>     IP, on devices that are not routers... So does "hop" here refer to >>>> IP router >>>>>     hops or also to devices not processing IP (or IP/MPLS)? >>>>> >>>>> * Page 27: >>>>> >>>>>      Standard queuing and transmission selection algorithms allow a >>>>>      central controller to compute the latency contribution of each >>>>>      transit node to the end-to-end latency, ... >>>>> >>>>>     The text does not explain why a _central_ controller is needed for >>>> this >>>>>     computation. Why would a distributed control plane not be able to >>>> realize >>>>>     this computation. Isn't this implementation-specific? >>>>> >>>>> * Page 32 >>>>> >>>>>     To somebody who is not deeply familiar with DetNet, it is >>>> impossible to parse >>>>>     the description of the examples in Section 4.7.3. For instance, >>>> "VID + >>>>>     multicast MAC address" is not introduced. I think this example >>>> must be >>>>>     expaned with additional context and explanation to be useful to >>>> readers. >>>>> * Page 34 >>>>> >>>>>      There are three classes of information that a central controller >>>> or >>>>>      distributed control plane needs to know that can only be obtained >>>>>      from the end systems and/or nodes in the network. >>>>> >>>>>     Wouldn't it be sufficient to state "Provisioning of DetNet >>>> requires knowledge >>>>>     about ...". Does it matter in this context whether the >>>> provisioning is done >>>>>     by a central controller or a distributed control plane? For >>>> instance, could >>>>>     the same paragraph also apply to a network that uses _multiple_ >>>> central >>>>>     controllers, or hybrid combinations of central controllers and >>>> distributed >>>>>     control planes? In general, an architecture document should be >>>> agnostic to >>>>>     implementation aspects unless there is a specific need. In this >>>> specific >>>>>     case, I fail to see a need to discuss the realization of the >>>> control plane of >>>>>     a network. >>>>> >>>>> Editorial nits: >>>>> >>>>> * Page 9: >>>>> >>>>>      The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 provide the >>>>>      necessary regulation of transmissions by an end system or >>>>>      intermediate node to provide congestion protection. The >>>> allocation >>>>>      of the bandwidth and buffers for a DetNet flow requires >>>> provisioning >>>>>      A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation >>>> and/or >>>>>      scheduling, that might otherwise be over-subscribed and trigger >>>> the >>>>>      rejection of a reservation. >>>>> >>>>>     Probably a full stop is missing after "provisioning". >>>>> >>>>> * Page 11: "... along separate (disjoint non-SRLG) paths ..." >>>>> >>>>>     I find this confusing. I would understand e.g. "along separate >>>>>     (SRLG-disjoint) paths". >>>>> >>>>> * Page 34: >>>>> >>>>>      When using a peer- >>>>>      to-peer control plane, some of this information may be required >>>> by a >>>>>      system's neighbors in the network. >>>>> >>>>>     Would "acquired" be a better term? >>>>> >>>>> * Page 34: >>>>> >>>>>      o  The identity of the system's neighbors, and the >>>> characteristics of >>>>>         the link(s) between the systems, including the length (in >>>>>         nanoseconds) of the link(s). >>>>> >>>>>     "Latency" or "delay" would probably be a better terms if the value >>>> is >>>>>     measured in nanoseconds. >>>>> >>>>> * Page 35: >>>>> >>>>>      DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does >>>> not >>>>>      directly raise any new privacy considerations. >>>>> >>>>>     Broken sentence >>>>> >>>>> * Please expand acronyms on first use (e.g., OTN) >>>>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Mon Dec 10 09:59:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D8B613113A for ; 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Mon, 10 Dec 2018 18:59:00 +0100 Received: from [131.160.181.217] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.186) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 15.1.1466.3 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 18:58:59 +0100 To: Lou Berger CC: , References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <090ae5ba-e44c-f8fa-7259-5ab1b01fb23c@ericsson.com> <167991e4c98.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> From: =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= Message-ID: <59a55a2e-45ac-ec18-8a7b-7b65490812e6@ericsson.com> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 18:58:59 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <167991e4c98.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrELMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7tW7KSr4Yg4Y7aha/P81msdg3axOL RUfzWxYHZo8lS34yeXzY1MwWwBTFZZOSmpNZllqkb5fAlTFx8Wn2gud3GSu+b5zI2MD4fwtj FyMnh4SAicTVmcdYuhi5OIQEjjBK3Pt6hxnC+cYocWjyJyjnGKPEjYvP2UBahAXMJZq272IG sUUEFCW+flzEBGIzC7hIHLn/iQ2i4S2TxPSJN8Ea2ATsJe5e2gDWwAtkt33ZCNbAIqAq8W5J KzuILSoQK/HpymKoGkGJkzOfsIDYnAKeEhcmXoNaYCExc/55RghbXqJ562xmCFtc4taT+WA1 QgJqEp/ePmSfwCg0C8moWUjaZyFpn4WkfQEjyypG0eLU4qTcdCMjvdSizOTi4vw8vbzUkk2M wJA/uOW3wQ7Gl88dDzEKcDAq8fBGz+GLEWJNLCuuzD3EKMHBrCTCq5vGGyPEm5JYWZValB9f VJqTWnyIUZqDRUmc108LqFogPbEkNTs1tSC1CCbLxMEp1cDo/1k6zL01KPbG/LnVBh3cbSXa k4W2TPge2jbt4/XrWnqBOXNSbzzd9vMsS1LWzpnlP1Pa/r8PX2OeK2bSKJl6zpatqq+hbllv qsX2G9/UOuf/u/NURaRg+5II1Q0LuSri755O3LZ0ru+Ek0cDdx2bOl92+zqDFKsGuSXZy38s cyn4+1xvj+tKJZbijERDLeai4kQA8oMm9XUCAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 17:59:08 -0000 I'm of course open to other alternatives. I'm interested to avoid the confusion; just proposed an initial idea. I'm afraid we won't find the ideal term, but it would be good to have a good enough one. On 12/10/2018 3:47 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > The problem János is that we do not only avoid loss. We also control latency. So "queuing loss" is too limitation. > We are protecting the resources that are necessary, or providing guarantees that they are available. To provide the service. > Maybe "service guarantees" could be good? > Pascal I know, and it is also there in the document: "   Congestion protection addresses two of the DetNet QoS requirements:    latency and packet loss.  Given that DetNet nodes have a finite    amount of buffer space, congestion protection necessarily results in    a maximum end-to-end latency.  It also addresses the largest    contribution to packet loss, which is buffer congestion." also: "   The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 provide the    necessary regulation of transmissions by an end system or DetNet node    to provide congestion protection.  The allocation of the bandwidth    and buffers for a DetNet flow requires provisioning.  A DetNet node    may have other resources requiring allocation and/or scheduling, that    might otherwise be over-subscribed and trigger the rejection of a    reservation." In other words, we need adequate queuing mechanism with appropriate queue management plus resource allocation. On 12/10/2018 6:15 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > Fwiw in the te world, we normally call this "resource allocation". As > a contributor, I'd be comfortable with that term or "resource > management". I'd prefer "resource management" out of these two because I can talk into it that it is the combination of "resource allocation" and queue management". Thanks, Janos > > Lou > > > > ---------- > On December 10, 2018 9:30:20 AM János Farkas > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> As I understand, there is confusion around two DetNet terms. >> We are removing "transport". >> >> The other one is "congestion" and "congestion protection". >> >> Brief description of congestion protection in Section 3.1: >> >>     Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along the >> path >>     of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. Congestion >>     protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, packet loss >>     due to output packet congestion within the network, but it can only >>     be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to a >>     maximum packet size and transmission rate.  Note that congestion >>     protection provided via congestion detection and notification is >>     explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it serves a >>     different set of applications. >> >>     Congestion protection addresses two of the DetNet QoS requirements: >>     latency and packet loss.  Given that DetNet nodes have a finite >>     amount of buffer space, congestion protection necessarily results in >>     a maximum end-to-end latency.  It also addresses the largest >>     contribution to packet loss, which is buffer congestion. >> >> Detailed description is in Section 3.2.1. >> >> We wanted to have a brief collective term for the mechanisms used to >> avoid queuing related packet loss (including buffer overflow etc.). >> >> Based on the discussions, we should have a term that does not include >> "congestion". >> ("Service Protection" is another DetNet term, hence we may consider a >> term without "protection" to minimize confusion.) >> >> I suggest to replace "congestion protection" with "queuing loss >> avoidance". >> >> After agreeing in the terminology cahnge (if any), the text has to be >> updated accordingly. >> >> What do you think? >> >> Best regards, >> Janos >> >> >> On 11/20/2018 1:11 PM, Lou Berger wrote: >>> Michael, >>> >>> I think we're getting somewhere and identifying where we have >>> disconnects and what may (and what may not) need to change in the >>> document.  My takeaways are: >>> >>> - The document needs a good 'scrub' of the congestion related >>> references to ensure that the document only makes statements on what >>> is actually done within a DetNet and the relationship with transport >>> protocols that use detnet (which are in fact outside the scope of the >>> DetNet WG).  I'll work with the authors and WG on this -- I see this >>> change as important, but editorial in nature. >>> >>> - We have a perception issue with at least one member of the TSV area >>> on the meaning and more importantly, implication, of the term "DetNet >>> *Transport* sub-layer".  While I don't disagree that a good portion of >>> the IETF thinks transport protocol (UDP/TCP) when they hear >>> "transport" there are plenty others, particularly in the routing area, >>> who understand that "transport" can refer to Transport Networks.  And >>> Transport Network is a well understood general industry term. The IETF >>> even has a bunch of RFCs that relate to Transport networks. This >>> said, I think it reasonable to go back to the DetNet WG and discuss >>> changing the name of the "DetNet Transport sub-layer"  to avoid the >>> word "transport".  -- BTW we made a parallel change in the TEAS WG >>> when producing RFC8453. >>> >>> See below for detail response in-line. >>> >>> On 11/19/2018 5:15 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote: >>>> Lou, >>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> I wanted to take a step back from the multiple discussions that were >>>>> spawned by your review -- from a doc shepherd perspective, and see >>>>> where >>>>> we are.   I know that the authors have sent a -09 version that >>>>> addresses >>>>> some, but not all issues. >>>>> >>>>>   From the exchanges I've seen, I think the key remaining issues are >>>>> related to: >>>>> >>>>> (a) possibly introduction of congestion in the general internet if >>>>> packets were somehow to escape a detnet domain.  The source of this >>>>> congestion would be inelastic traffic using DetNet or due to >>>>> congestion >>>>> loss that is masked by PREOF. >>>> These are two major issues that need to be addressed. Note that it >>>> may not be sufficient just to add a section on operational and >>>> deployment considerations. Also the existing text in the document >>>> will need to get aligned to normative guidance on how to avoid a >>>> congestion collapse. >>>> >>>> In -09, one example would be Section 3.1. "Primary goals defining the >>>> DetNet QoS" >>>> >>>>     Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along the >>>> path >>>>     of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. Congestion >>>>     protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, packet >>>> loss >>>>     due to output packet congestion within the network, but it can >>>> only >>>>     be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to a >>>>     maximum packet size and transmission rate.  Note that congestion >>>>     protection provided via congestion detection and notification is >>>>     explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it serves a >>>>     different set of applications. >>> >>>> At least the last sentence would contradict a better discussion of >>>> congestion in the document. For instance, it could just be removed. >>>> In any case, the current wording in the last sentence is not correct, >>>> as the IETF term for what is described in the last sentence is >>>> "congestion control". >>>> >>>> Another example would be  Section 3.2.1.1. "Eliminate congestion loss" >>>>       The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS assurances >>>> is to >>>>     reduce, or even completely eliminate, congestion within a DetNet >>>> node >>>>     as a cause of packet loss.  This can be achieved only by the >>>>     provision of sufficient buffer storage at each node through the >>>>     network to ensure that no packets are dropped due to a lack of >>>> buffer >>>>     storage.  Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled, i.e., its >>>>     transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion >>>>     notification. >>>> >>>> This section IMHO has to include a discussion of what happens in the >>>> (not expected) case that packets get dropped or that ECN marks are >>>> received. It is understood that this would not happen in normal >>>> operation of a DetNet network, but I believe just considering the >>>> error-free operation of a DetNet network is not sufficient for this >>>> document. At least for the risk of traffic that may escape from a >>>> DetNet network is inherently not sufficient to assume that the DetNet >>>> network is always error-free. >>> >>> I think these are examples of text that needs to be cleanup up and to >>> delineate what is done with a DetNet. >>> >>> >>>> As a result, addressing my concerns will most likely require editing >>>> several parts of the document. >>>> >>>> In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review comment "It is >>>> surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network robustness >>>> and safety" >>> >>> I have no idea what you mean by safety here.  Can you elaborate. >>> >>> >>>> covers more than just inelastic traffic that escapes from a DetNet >>>> network and masking of packet loss. Given that DetNet traffic may be >>>> extremely critical traffic, I really wonder why the document doesn't >>>> emphasize more the required robustness against failures *inside* the >>>> DetNet network as well as counter-measures. But this is something the >>>> WG needs to decide. As TSV-ART reviewer, I will be fine if the >>>> document clearly describes how the impact of failures will be >>>> isolated inside the DetNet network and will not put the general >>>> Internet at risk. >>> >>> I agree - I think, the document should be clear on it's scope and >>> relationship to general internet usage. >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> (b) The use of the term 'transport' in DetNet to refer to what is >>>>> basically a Traffic Engineered sub-network layer, such as is provided >>>>> with MPLS-TE or Optical Transport Networks. >>>> In the Internet architecture, the term 'transport' refers to Internet >>>> transport protocols. I doubt that the document can avoid discussing >>>> the implications of and interactions with Internet transport >>>> protocols such as UDP or TCP. As a result, I disagree that the >>>> document can use the term 'transport' to refer to traffic engineered >>>> sub-network layers. >>> >>> I think this is covered by my comment above. >>> >>> >>>>  From a TSV-ART point of view, the document can either only use the >>>> term "transport" for Internet transport protocols and use another >>>> term for sub-network layers (as handled in the *routing* area of the >>>> IETF), or the document has to clearly distinguish between the >>>> Internet transport layer and other uses of the term "transport" and >>>> explain the overlap. I believe the former would be less confusing, >>>> but I will leave it up to the TSV ADs to discuss terminology overlap >>>> in the IESG. As TSV-ART reviewer I insist that the document uses the >>>> terms "transport layer" and "transport protocol" only when referring >>>> to the Internet transport layer. >>> >>> I'm personally okay with a name change and even willing to push this >>> discussion within the WG, but as said above, "Transport Network" is a >>> generally understood industry term that is also used in RFCs -- so >>> we'll have to see what where WG consensus ends up. >>> >>>> >>>>> Do you have any other issues that that are critical to be addressed >>>>> before this work moves forward?  If so which? >>>> Regarding Section 4.4 I have already deferred the discussion to the >>>> IESG. The TSV-ART review comment is that the IESG needs to carefully >>>> look at the concepts, terminology, and references in section 4.4. >>>> >>>> Regarding my other comments, I acknowledge that -09 is a step >>>> forward. But given the cross-dependencies e.g. regarding terminology >>>> and definitions, I will need to read the text completely once there >>>> is a proposal how to address my review. As noted in my review, I >>>> believe the document must use terminology clearly and consistently. >>>> As example, a statement in -09 such as "Network nodes supporting >>>> DetNet flows have to implement some of the DetNet capabilities (not >>>> necessarily all) in order to treat DetNet flows such that their QoS >>>> requirements are met" is IMHO too vague. But in such cases it depends >>>> whether there is precise normative guidance elsewhere. And this >>>> requires looking at the text as a whole. >>> >>> I think the next steps lie with me and the WG.  We'll let you know >>> once there is a new version.  Of course, you can also contribute to >>> the WG discussion on the topic. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Lou >>> >>>> >>>> Best regards >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Thank you, >>>>> >>>>> Lou >>>>> >>>>> On 9/28/2018 6:24 PM, Michael Scharf wrote: >>>>>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf >>>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues >>>>>> >>>>>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" >>>>>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall framework for >>>>>> Deterministic Networking. >>>>>> >>>>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues as >>>>> detailed below. >>>>>> Michael >>>>>> >>>>>> Major issues: >>>>>> >>>>>> * It seems that DetNet cannot easily be deployed in the Internet >>>>> without >>>>>> additional means. Thus, for a baseline document, one could expect >>>>> some >>>>>> explanation on the requirements of deploying DetNet in a network. >>>>> DetNet >>>>>> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices >>>>> transporting DetNet >>>>>> traffic. That assumption should be explicitly spelt out early in the >>>>> document, >>>>>> e.g., in the introduction. There also needs to be an explicit >>>>> discussion of the >>>>>> implications if not the whole network is aware of or supports >>>>>> DetNet. >>>>> There is >>>>>> some text in Section 4.2.2 and Section 4.3.3, but I believe >>>>> additional explicit >>>>>> discussion is needed at a prominant place. For instance, can use of >>>>> DetNet do >>>>>> harm to parts of a network not supporting DetNet? As a side note, >>>>> when TCPM >>>>>> published RFC 8257, the following disclaimer was added: "DCTCP, as >>>>> described in >>>>>> this specification, is applicable to deployments in controlled >>>>> environments >>>>>> like data centers, but it must not be deployed over the public >>>>> Internet without >>>>>> additional measures." I wonder if a similar disclaimer is needed for >>>>> DetNet. If >>>>>> there is an implicit assumption that DetNet will  be used in >>>>> homogenous >>>>>> environments with mostly DetNet-aware devices within the same >>>>> organization, >>>>>> such an assumption should be made explicit. >>>>>> >>>>>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network >>>>> robustness >>>>>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For instance, >>>>>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet >>>>>> replication >>>>> could >>>>>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How does >>>>>> the >>>>> DetNet >>>>>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. if >>>>> the topology >>>>>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be solved >>>>> by >>>>>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are >>>>> corresponding >>>>>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that filters >>>>>> and >>>>> policers >>>>>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still assumes >>>>> consistently >>>>>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And Section >>>>> 3.3.2 is >>>>>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" without >>>>> stating >>>>>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further solutions, >>>>> such as >>>>>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not discussed? >>>>>> >>>>>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of failures to >>>>> the QoS of >>>>>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to protect non- >>>>> DetNet parts >>>>>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. Solutions to >>>>> this >>>>>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic >>>>>> (e.g., in >>>>> case of >>>>>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not discussed at >>>>> all in the >>>>>> document? >>>>>> >>>>>> * Regarding security, an architecture like DetNet probably requires >>>>> that only >>>>>> authenticated and authorized end systems have access to the data >>>>> plane. The >>>>>> security considerations only briefly mention the control aspect >>>>>> ("the >>>>>> authentication and authorization of the controlling systems"). >>>>>> >>>>>> * For an architecture document, the lack of clarity and consistency >>>>> regarding >>>>>> terminology is concerning. This specifically applies to the case of >>>>> incomplete >>>>>> networks (as per Section 4.2.2 and 4.3.3) that include "DetNet- >>>>> unaware nodes". >>>>>> The document introduces terms such as "DetNet intermediate nodes" >>>>>> but >>>>> then >>>>>> repeatedly uses generic terms such as "node" or "hop" that may >>>>> include >>>>>> DetNet-unaware nodes. For instance, for incomplete networks, a >>>>> sentence such as >>>>>> "The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS assurances is to >>>>> reduce, or >>>>>> even completely eliminate, congestion within a node as a cause of >>>>> packet loss" >>>>>> seems to only apply to "DetNet transit nodes" but not >>>>>> "DetNet-unaware >>>>> nodes". >>>>>> Similar ambiguity exist for other use of the terms "hop" and "node", >>>>> which may >>>>>> or may not include DetNet-unaware nodes. It is unclear why the >>>>> document does >>>>>> not consistently use the terminology introduced in Section 2.1 in >>>>>> all >>>>> sections >>>>>> and clearly distinguishes cases with and without DetNet support. >>>>>> >>>>>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational RFC on >>>>> IRTF stream, >>>>>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., >>>>>> "planes"). >>>>> This is >>>>>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should probably >>>>> refer to >>>>>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC 7491, >>>>>> albeit >>>>> there is >>>>>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, Section >>>>>> 4.4 >>>>> is by and >>>>>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not specific to >>>>> DetNet. >>>>>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the concepts >>>>> introduced in >>>>>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology or >>>>> discuss >>>>>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly at the >>>>> end that >>>>>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet architecture. >>>>> It is not >>>>>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 could >>>>> be removed >>>>>> from the document without impacting the rest of the document. >>>>>> >>>>>> Minor issues: >>>>>> >>>>>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" >>>>>> >>>>>>     The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in the >>>>>> IETF, >>>>> e.g. >>>>>>     originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. "transport >>>>> network" is >>>>>>     used in the IETF for different technologies in different >>>>>> areas, I >>>>> think the >>>>>>     term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer to >>>>> transport >>>>>>     protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find the >>>>>> term >>>>> "DetNet >>>>>>     transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion is easy >>>>> to see e.g. >>>>>>     in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as per RFC >>>>> 1122) sits >>>>>>     on top of "transport". >>>>>> >>>>>>     Based on the document it also may be solution/implementation >>>>> specific whether >>>>>>     the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate protocol >>>>>> layer >>>>> compared >>>>>>     to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me why >>>>>> the >>>>> word >>>>>>     "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination "transport >>>>> layer". >>>>>>     To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport protocol") >>>>> should be >>>>>>     used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with RFC >>>>>> 1122. >>>>> But this is >>>>>>     probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 9 >>>>>> >>>>>>      A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation >>>>> and/or >>>>>>      scheduling, >>>>>> >>>>>>     This is just one of several examples for inconsistent use of >>>>> terminology. >>>>>>     What is a "DetNet node"? That term is not introduced in Section >>>>> 2.1 >>>>>> * Page 14 >>>>>> >>>>>>      A DetNet network supports the dedication of a high proportion >>>>> (e.g. >>>>>>      75%) of the network bandwidth to DetNet flows. >>>>>> >>>>>>     The 75% value is not reasoned. What prevents using 99% of the >>>>> bandwidth for >>>>>>     DetNet traffic? >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 15: Figure 2 >>>>>> >>>>>>     If the term "transport layer" cannot be avoided, the labels in >>>>> this figure >>>>>>     should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport layer". >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 18: Figure 4 >>>>>> >>>>>>     As already mentioned earlier, Figure 4 is confusing. UDP is a >>>>> transport >>>>>>     protocol. If the term "transport" cannot be avoided, the >>>>>> labels in >>>>> this >>>>>>     figure should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport". >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 23 >>>>>> >>>>>>      If the source transmits less data than this limit >>>>>>      allows, the unused resource such as link bandwidth can be made >>>>>>      available by the system to non-DetNet packets. >>>>>> >>>>>>     Could there be additional requirements on the use of unused >>>>> resources by >>>>>>     non-DetNet packets, e.g., regarding preemption? I am just >>>>> wondering... If >>>>>>     that was possible, a statement like "... can be made >>>>>> available by >>>>> the system >>>>>>     to non-DetNet packets as long as all guarantees are fulfilled" >>>>> would be on >>>>>>     the safe side, no? >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 27: >>>>>> >>>>>>      DetNet achieves congestion protection and bounded delivery >>>>> latency by >>>>>>      reserving bandwidth and buffer resources at every hop along the >>>>> path >>>>>>      of the DetNet flow. >>>>>> >>>>>>     Why does this sentence use the word "hop"? As far as I >>>>>> understand, >>>>> in DetNet >>>>>>     bandwidth and buffer resources are reserved in each DetNet >>>>> intermediate node. >>>>>>     If there were hops over IP routers not being DetNet intermediate >>>>> nodes, no >>>>>>     resources would be reserved there. As per Section 4.3.3, it is >>>>> possible to >>>>>>     deploy DetNet this way. And obviously there can be resource >>>>> bottlenecks below >>>>>>     IP, on devices that are not routers... So does "hop" here >>>>>> refer to >>>>> IP router >>>>>>     hops or also to devices not processing IP (or IP/MPLS)? >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 27: >>>>>> >>>>>>      Standard queuing and transmission selection algorithms allow a >>>>>>      central controller to compute the latency contribution of each >>>>>>      transit node to the end-to-end latency, ... >>>>>> >>>>>>     The text does not explain why a _central_ controller is >>>>>> needed for >>>>> this >>>>>>     computation. Why would a distributed control plane not be >>>>>> able to >>>>> realize >>>>>>     this computation. Isn't this implementation-specific? >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 32 >>>>>> >>>>>>     To somebody who is not deeply familiar with DetNet, it is >>>>> impossible to parse >>>>>>     the description of the examples in Section 4.7.3. For instance, >>>>> "VID + >>>>>>     multicast MAC address" is not introduced. I think this example >>>>> must be >>>>>>     expaned with additional context and explanation to be useful to >>>>> readers. >>>>>> * Page 34 >>>>>> >>>>>>      There are three classes of information that a central >>>>>> controller >>>>> or >>>>>>      distributed control plane needs to know that can only be >>>>>> obtained >>>>>>      from the end systems and/or nodes in the network. >>>>>> >>>>>>     Wouldn't it be sufficient to state "Provisioning of DetNet >>>>> requires knowledge >>>>>>     about ...". Does it matter in this context whether the >>>>> provisioning is done >>>>>>     by a central controller or a distributed control plane? For >>>>> instance, could >>>>>>     the same paragraph also apply to a network that uses _multiple_ >>>>> central >>>>>>     controllers, or hybrid combinations of central controllers and >>>>> distributed >>>>>>     control planes? In general, an architecture document should be >>>>> agnostic to >>>>>>     implementation aspects unless there is a specific need. In this >>>>> specific >>>>>>     case, I fail to see a need to discuss the realization of the >>>>> control plane of >>>>>>     a network. >>>>>> >>>>>> Editorial nits: >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 9: >>>>>> >>>>>>      The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 provide the >>>>>>      necessary regulation of transmissions by an end system or >>>>>>      intermediate node to provide congestion protection. The >>>>> allocation >>>>>>      of the bandwidth and buffers for a DetNet flow requires >>>>> provisioning >>>>>>      A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation >>>>> and/or >>>>>>      scheduling, that might otherwise be over-subscribed and trigger >>>>> the >>>>>>      rejection of a reservation. >>>>>> >>>>>>     Probably a full stop is missing after "provisioning". >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 11: "... along separate (disjoint non-SRLG) paths ..." >>>>>> >>>>>>     I find this confusing. I would understand e.g. "along separate >>>>>>     (SRLG-disjoint) paths". >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 34: >>>>>> >>>>>>      When using a peer- >>>>>>      to-peer control plane, some of this information may be required >>>>> by a >>>>>>      system's neighbors in the network. >>>>>> >>>>>>     Would "acquired" be a better term? >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 34: >>>>>> >>>>>>      o  The identity of the system's neighbors, and the >>>>> characteristics of >>>>>>         the link(s) between the systems, including the length (in >>>>>>         nanoseconds) of the link(s). >>>>>> >>>>>>     "Latency" or "delay" would probably be a better terms if the >>>>>> value >>>>> is >>>>>>     measured in nanoseconds. >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 35: >>>>>> >>>>>>      DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, >>>>>> does >>>>> not >>>>>>      directly raise any new privacy considerations. >>>>>> >>>>>>     Broken sentence >>>>>> >>>>>> * Please expand acronyms on first use (e.g., OTN) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> detnet mailing list >>>> detnet@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > From nobody Mon Dec 10 17:40:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C65661277D2; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 17:40:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.161 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.161 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.46, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dell.com header.b=wf55FkD8; 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ESMTPS id wBB4Le6a026400 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 11 Dec 2018 04:21:40 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-004.cisco.com (173.37.102.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 22:21:39 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 22:21:39 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "Black, David" , =?utf-8?B?SsOhbm9zIEZhcmthcw==?= , Lou Berger CC: "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change Thread-Index: AQHUkLINAuax1Y60tEqcHIyYMT8lGKV5KC4A///HuPA= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 04:21:23 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 04:20:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <090ae5ba-e44c-f8fa-7259-5ab1b01fb23c@ericsson.com> <167991e4c98.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> <59a55a2e-45ac-ec18-8a7b-7b65490812e6@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.209.32] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.14, xch-rcd-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 04:21:50 -0000 IkZsb3cgUHJvdGVjdGlvbiIgbG9va3MgZ29vZCB0byBtZSB0b28uLi4NCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdp 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cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1591.10; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 04:57:49 +0000 Received: from DGGEMI403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.136) by lhreml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.54) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.1591.10 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 04:57:48 +0000 Received: from DGGEMI529-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.128]) by dggemi403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.136]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 12:57:42 +0800 From: "qiangli (D)" To: "Andrew G. Malis" , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" CC: Lou Berger , "Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de" , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" , =?utf-8?B?SsOhbm9zIEZhcmthcw==?= , "Transport Area Review Team" , detnet WG Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change (was: Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) Thread-Index: AQHUkJTa29yMFh+gVU+HN9Afojgu5aV3h0cAgAALZACAAWVUMA== Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 04:57:41 +0000 Message-ID: <06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2ADAF49E@dggemi529-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <090ae5ba-e44c-f8fa-7259-5ab1b01fb23c@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.163.138] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2ADAF49Edggemi529mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 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X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.163.138] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 05:17:38 -0000 SSBhbSBhZnJhaWQgZmxvdy1ncmFpbmVkIG9wZXJhdGlvbnMgd2lsbCBmYWNlIHdpdGggc2NhbGFi aWxpdHkgcHJvYmxlbSwgYW5kIGZsb3ctcHJvdGVjdGlvbiBtYXkgbGltaXQgc29tZSB0dW5uZWwg bGlrZSBvciBvdGhlciBwb3NzaWJsZSBzb2x1dGlvbnMuIEhvdyBhYm91dCB1c2luZyAiRGV0TmV0 IHBhY2tldCBsb3NzIGNvbnRyb2wgbGF5ZXIiIHRvIHJlcGxhY2UgY3VycmVudCAiIHNlcnZpY2Ug c3ViLWxheWVyIiwgc2ltaWxhcmx5IHVzaW5nICJEZXROZXQgZGVsYXkgY29udHJvbCBsYXllciIg dG8gcmVwbGFjZSBjdXJyZW50ICJ0cmFuc3BvcnQgc3ViLWxheWVyIj8gSnVzdCBhIHN1Z2dlc3Rp 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ZGV0bmV0QGlldGYub3JnDQo+ID4gPj4+PiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xp c3RpbmZvL2RldG5ldA0KPiA+ID4+DQo+ID4gPj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gPiA+PiBkZXRuZXQgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+ID4gPj4g ZGV0bmV0QGlldGYub3JnDQo+ID4gPj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0 aW5mby9kZXRuZXQNCj4gPiA+DQo+ID4gPg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gPiBkZXRuZXQgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+ID4g ZGV0bmV0QGlldGYub3JnDQo+ID4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5m by9kZXRuZXQNCg== From nobody Tue Dec 11 03:43:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D2C6130DD5 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 03:42:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, 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X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Subject: References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Date:CC:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=fe1OSs5/ExMlegc+fSu0ETeAFjg24+GkU6qvJ+f/6Zw=; b=pEmG9Ipu7Jn41TJfK/92pI+nra 58+kfIk/ARBZelBaiPVQ6D6dlVXlx2LChQPhlQBVPRRNk/9scSL3iF8IimzH9rSog1ptROsO9FA7P TAD3wHCNkiFw8hrkvAj9gRCU/; Received: from pool-100-15-82-67.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.82.67]:56610 helo=[192.168.2.51]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gWgRB-000HmV-UD; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 04:42:54 -0700 From: Lou Berger To: "qiangli (D)" , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Black, David" , =?UTF-8?B?SsOhbm9zIEZhcmthcw==?= CC: , Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 06:42:51 -0500 Message-ID: <1679d13aa78.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2ADAF4CE@dggemi529-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <090ae5ba-e44c-f8fa-7259-5ab1b01fb23c@ericsson.com> <167991e4c98.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> <59a55a2e-45ac-ec18-8a7b-7b65490812e6@ericsson.com> <06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2ADAF4CE@dggemi529-mbs.china.huawei.com> User-Agent: AquaMail/1.17.0-1324 (build: 101700010) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.82.67 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gWgRB-000HmV-UD X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-82-67.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([192.168.2.51]) [100.15.82.67]:56610 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 3 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 11:43:00 -0000 Isn't an angregate of (e.g., 6-tuple) flows still a flow, just like an lsp that carries other lsps is still an LSP? Lou ---------- On December 11, 2018 12:18:14 AM "qiangli (D)" wrote: > I am afraid flow-grained operations will face with scalability problem, and > flow-protection may limit some tunnel like or other possible solutions. How > about using "DetNet packet loss control layer" to replace current " service > sub-layer", similarly using "DetNet delay control layer" to replace current > "transport sub-layer"? Just a suggestion ;-) > > Best regards, > > Cristina QIANG > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert > (pthubert) > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2018 12:21 PM > To: Black, David ; János Farkas > ; Lou Berger > Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change > > "Flow Protection" looks good to me too... > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Black, David >> Sent: mardi 11 décembre 2018 05:40 >> To: János Farkas ; Lou Berger >> >> Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org >> Subject: RE: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change >> >> > >> Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along the path >> > >> of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. Congestion >> > >> protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, packet loss >> > >> due to output packet congestion within the network, but it can only >> > >> be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to a >> > >> maximum packet size and transmission rate. >> >> > >> We wanted to have a brief collective term for the mechanisms used >> > >> to avoid queuing related packet loss (including buffer overflow etc.). >> >> Perhaps "flow protection" as it protects individual flows and is >> configured/administered/managed at flow granularity?? >> >> The use of the word "resource" proposed below seems easy to mis-read >> as involving resources beyond the flow-by-flow scope of this functionality. >> >> Thanks, --David >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of János >> > Farkas >> > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 12:59 PM >> > To: Lou Berger >> > Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org >> > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change >> > >> > >> > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] >> > >> > I'm of course open to other alternatives. I'm interested to avoid >> > the confusion; just proposed an initial idea. >> > I'm afraid we won't find the ideal term, but it would be good to >> > have a good enough one. >> > >> > On 12/10/2018 3:47 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: >> > > The problem János is that we do not only avoid loss. We also >> > > control >> > latency. So "queuing loss" is too limitation. >> > > We are protecting the resources that are necessary, or providing >> > guarantees that they are available. To provide the service. >> > > Maybe "service guarantees" could be good? >> > > Pascal >> > I know, and it is also there in the document: >> > >> > "   Congestion protection addresses two of the DetNet QoS requirements: >> >    latency and packet loss.  Given that DetNet nodes have a finite >> >    amount of buffer space, congestion protection necessarily >> > results in >> >    a maximum end-to-end latency.  It also addresses the largest >> >    contribution to packet loss, which is buffer congestion." >> > >> > also: >> > "   The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 provide the >> >    necessary regulation of transmissions by an end system or DetNet >> > node >> >    to provide congestion protection.  The allocation of the >> > bandwidth >> >    and buffers for a DetNet flow requires provisioning.  A DetNet >> > node >> >    may have other resources requiring allocation and/or scheduling, >> > that >> >    might otherwise be over-subscribed and trigger the rejection of >> > a >> >    reservation." >> > >> > In other words, we need adequate queuing mechanism with appropriate >> > queue management plus resource allocation. >> > >> > On 12/10/2018 6:15 PM, Lou Berger wrote: >> > > Fwiw in the te world, we normally call this "resource allocation". >> > > As a contributor, I'd be comfortable with that term or "resource >> > > management". >> > >> > I'd prefer "resource management" out of these two because I can talk >> > into it that it is the combination of "resource allocation" and >> > queue management". >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Janos >> > >> > >> > > >> > > Lou >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ---------- >> > > On December 10, 2018 9:30:20 AM János Farkas >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > >> Hi, >> > >> >> > >> As I understand, there is confusion around two DetNet terms. >> > >> We are removing "transport". >> > >> >> > >> The other one is "congestion" and "congestion protection". >> > >> >> > >> Brief description of congestion protection in Section 3.1: >> > >> >> > >>     Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along >> > >> the path >> > >>     of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. >> > >> Congestion >> > >>     protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, >> > >> packet loss >> > >>     due to output packet congestion within the network, but it >> > >> can only >> > >>     be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to >> > >> a >> > >>     maximum packet size and transmission rate.  Note that >> > >> congestion >> > >>     protection provided via congestion detection and notification >> > >> is >> > >>     explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it >> > >> serves a >> > >>     different set of applications. >> > >> >> > >>     Congestion protection addresses two of the DetNet QoS requirements: >> > >>     latency and packet loss.  Given that DetNet nodes have a >> > >> finite >> > >>     amount of buffer space, congestion protection necessarily >> > >> results in >> > >>     a maximum end-to-end latency.  It also addresses the largest >> > >>     contribution to packet loss, which is buffer congestion. >> > >> >> > >> Detailed description is in Section 3.2.1. >> > >> >> > >> We wanted to have a brief collective term for the mechanisms used >> > >> to avoid queuing related packet loss (including buffer overflow etc.). >> > >> >> > >> Based on the discussions, we should have a term that does not >> > >> include "congestion". >> > >> ("Service Protection" is another DetNet term, hence we may >> > >> consider a term without "protection" to minimize confusion.) >> > >> >> > >> I suggest to replace "congestion protection" with "queuing loss >> > >> avoidance". >> > >> >> > >> After agreeing in the terminology cahnge (if any), the text has >> > >> to be updated accordingly. >> > >> >> > >> What do you think? >> > >> >> > >> Best regards, >> > >> Janos >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On 11/20/2018 1:11 PM, Lou Berger wrote: >> > >>> Michael, >> > >>> >> > >>> I think we're getting somewhere and identifying where we have >> > >>> disconnects and what may (and what may not) need to change in >> > >>> the document.  My takeaways are: >> > >>> >> > >>> - The document needs a good 'scrub' of the congestion related >> > >>> references to ensure that the document only makes statements on >> > what >> > >>> is actually done within a DetNet and the relationship with >> > >>> transport protocols that use detnet (which are in fact outside >> > >>> the scope of the DetNet WG).  I'll work with the authors and WG >> > >>> on this -- I see this change as important, but editorial in nature. >> > >>> >> > >>> - We have a perception issue with at least one member of the TSV >> > >>> area on the meaning and more importantly, implication, of the >> > >>> term "DetNet >> > >>> *Transport* sub-layer".  While I don't disagree that a good >> > >>> portion of the IETF thinks transport protocol (UDP/TCP) when >> > >>> they hear "transport" there are plenty others, particularly in >> > >>> the routing area, who understand that "transport" can refer to >> > >>> Transport Networks.  And Transport Network is a well understood >> > >>> general industry term. The IETF even has a bunch of RFCs that >> > >>> relate to Transport networks. This said, I think it reasonable >> > >>> to go back to the DetNet WG and discuss changing the name of the >> > >>> "DetNet Transport sub-layer"  to avoid the word "transport".  -- >> > >>> BTW we made a parallel change in the TEAS WG when producing >> RFC8453. >> > >>> >> > >>> See below for detail response in-line. >> > >>> >> > >>> On 11/19/2018 5:15 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote: >> > >>>> Lou, >> > >>>> >> > >>>>> -- >> > >>>>> I wanted to take a step back from the multiple discussions >> > >>>>> that were spawned by your review -- from a doc shepherd >> > >>>>> perspective, and see where we are.   I know that the authors >> > >>>>> have sent a -09 version that addresses some, but not all issues. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>>   From the exchanges I've seen, I think the key remaining >> > >>>>> issues are related to: >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> (a) possibly introduction of congestion in the general >> > >>>>> internet if packets were somehow to escape a detnet domain.  >> > >>>>> The source of >> > this >> > >>>>> congestion would be inelastic traffic using DetNet or due to >> > >>>>> congestion loss that is masked by PREOF. >> > >>>> These are two major issues that need to be addressed. Note that >> > >>>> it may not be sufficient just to add a section on operational >> > >>>> and deployment considerations. Also the existing text in the >> > >>>> document will need to get aligned to normative guidance on how >> > >>>> to avoid a congestion collapse. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> In -09, one example would be Section 3.1. "Primary goals >> > >>>> defining the DetNet QoS" >> > >>>> >> > >>>>     Congestion protection operates by allocating resources >> > >>>> along the path >> > >>>>     of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. >> > >>>> Congestion >> > >>>>     protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, >> > >>>> packet loss >> > >>>>     due to output packet congestion within the network, but it >> > >>>> can only >> > >>>>     be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source >> > >>>> to a >> > >>>>     maximum packet size and transmission rate.  Note that >> > >>>> congestion >> > >>>>     protection provided via congestion detection and >> > >>>> notification is >> > >>>>     explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it >> > >>>> serves a >> > >>>>     different set of applications. >> > >>> >> > >>>> At least the last sentence would contradict a better discussion >> > >>>> of congestion in the document. For instance, it could just be removed. >> > >>>> In any case, the current wording in the last sentence is not >> > >>>> correct, as the IETF term for what is described in the last >> > >>>> sentence is "congestion control". >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Another example would be  Section 3.2.1.1. "Eliminate congestion loss" >> > >>>>       The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS >> > >>>> assurances is to >> > >>>>     reduce, or even completely eliminate, congestion within a >> > >>>> DetNet node >> > >>>>     as a cause of packet loss.  This can be achieved only by >> > >>>> the >> > >>>>     provision of sufficient buffer storage at each node through >> > >>>> the >> > >>>>     network to ensure that no packets are dropped due to a lack >> > >>>> of buffer >> > >>>>     storage.  Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled, >> > >>>> i.e., its >> > >>>>     transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion >> > >>>>     notification. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> This section IMHO has to include a discussion of what happens >> > >>>> in the (not expected) case that packets get dropped or that ECN >> > >>>> marks are received. It is understood that this would not happen >> > >>>> in normal operation of a DetNet network, but I believe just >> > >>>> considering the error-free operation of a DetNet network is not >> > >>>> sufficient for this document. At least for the risk of traffic >> > >>>> that may escape from a DetNet network is inherently not >> > >>>> sufficient to assume that the DetNet network is always error-free. >> > >>> >> > >>> I think these are examples of text that needs to be cleanup up >> > >>> and to delineate what is done with a DetNet. >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>>> As a result, addressing my concerns will most likely require >> > >>>> editing several parts of the document. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review comment "It >> > >>>> is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network >> > >>>> robustness and safety" >> > >>> >> > >>> I have no idea what you mean by safety here.  Can you elaborate. >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>>> covers more than just inelastic traffic that escapes from a >> > >>>> DetNet network and masking of packet loss. Given that DetNet >> > >>>> traffic may be extremely critical traffic, I really wonder why >> > >>>> the document doesn't emphasize more the required robustness >> > >>>> against failures *inside* the DetNet network as well as >> > >>>> counter-measures. But this is something the WG needs to decide. >> > >>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I will be fine if the document clearly >> > >>>> describes how the impact of failures will be isolated inside >> > >>>> the DetNet network and will not put the general Internet at risk. >> > >>> >> > >>> I agree - I think, the document should be clear on it's scope >> > >>> and relationship to general internet usage. >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>>> (b) The use of the term 'transport' in DetNet to refer to what >> > >>>>> is basically a Traffic Engineered sub-network layer, such as >> > >>>>> is provided with MPLS-TE or Optical Transport Networks. >> > >>>> In the Internet architecture, the term 'transport' refers to >> > >>>> Internet transport protocols. I doubt that the document can >> > >>>> avoid discussing the implications of and interactions with >> > >>>> Internet transport protocols such as UDP or TCP. As a result, I >> > >>>> disagree that the document can use the term 'transport' to >> > >>>> refer to traffic engineered sub-network layers. >> > >>> >> > >>> I think this is covered by my comment above. >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>>>  From a TSV-ART point of view, the document can either only use >> > >>>> the term "transport" for Internet transport protocols and use >> > >>>> another term for sub-network layers (as handled in the >> > >>>> *routing* area of the IETF), or the document has to clearly >> > >>>> distinguish between the Internet transport layer and other uses >> > >>>> of the term "transport" and explain the overlap. I believe the >> > >>>> former would be less confusing, but I will leave it up to the >> > >>>> TSV ADs to discuss terminology overlap in the IESG. As TSV-ART >> > >>>> reviewer I insist that the document uses the terms "transport >> > >>>> layer" and "transport protocol" only when referring to the Internet >> transport layer. >> > >>> >> > >>> I'm personally okay with a name change and even willing to push >> > >>> this discussion within the WG, but as said above, "Transport >> > >>> Network" is a generally understood industry term that is also >> > >>> used in RFCs -- so we'll have to see what where WG consensus ends up. >> > >>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>>> Do you have any other issues that that are critical to be >> > >>>>> addressed before this work moves forward?  If so which? >> > >>>> Regarding Section 4.4 I have already deferred the discussion to >> > >>>> the IESG. The TSV-ART review comment is that the IESG needs to >> > >>>> carefully look at the concepts, terminology, and references in >> > >>>> section >> 4.4. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Regarding my other comments, I acknowledge that -09 is a step >> > >>>> forward. But given the cross-dependencies e.g. regarding >> > >>>> terminology and definitions, I will need to read the text >> > >>>> completely once there is a proposal how to address my review. >> > >>>> As noted in my review, I believe the document must use >> > >>>> terminology >> clearly and consistently. >> > >>>> As example, a statement in -09 such as "Network nodes >> > >>>> supporting DetNet flows have to implement some of the DetNet >> > >>>> capabilities (not necessarily all) in order to treat DetNet >> > >>>> flows such that their QoS requirements are met" is IMHO too >> > >>>> vague. But in such cases it depends whether there is precise >> > >>>> normative guidance elsewhere. And this requires looking at the text >> as a whole. >> > >>> >> > >>> I think the next steps lie with me and the WG.  We'll let you >> > >>> know once there is a new version.  Of course, you can also >> > >>> contribute to the WG discussion on the topic. >> > >>> >> > >>> Thanks, >> > >>> >> > >>> Lou >> > >>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Best regards >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Michael >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>>> Thank you, >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> Lou >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> On 9/28/2018 6:24 PM, Michael Scharf wrote: >> > >>>>>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf >> > >>>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" >> > >>>>>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall >> > >>>>>> framework for Deterministic Networking. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues >> > >>>>>> as >> > >>>>> detailed below. >> > >>>>>> Michael >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Major issues: >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * It seems that DetNet cannot easily be deployed in the >> > >>>>>> Internet >> > >>>>> without >> > >>>>>> additional means. Thus, for a baseline document, one could >> > >>>>>> expect >> > >>>>> some >> > >>>>>> explanation on the requirements of deploying DetNet in a network. >> > >>>>> DetNet >> > >>>>>> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices >> > >>>>> transporting DetNet >> > >>>>>> traffic. That assumption should be explicitly spelt out early >> > >>>>>> in the >> > >>>>> document, >> > >>>>>> e.g., in the introduction. There also needs to be an explicit >> > >>>>> discussion of the >> > >>>>>> implications if not the whole network is aware of or supports >> > >>>>>> DetNet. >> > >>>>> There is >> > >>>>>> some text in Section 4.2.2 and Section 4.3.3, but I believe >> > >>>>> additional explicit >> > >>>>>> discussion is needed at a prominant place. For instance, can >> > >>>>>> use of >> > >>>>> DetNet do >> > >>>>>> harm to parts of a network not supporting DetNet? As a side >> > >>>>>> note, >> > >>>>> when TCPM >> > >>>>>> published RFC 8257, the following disclaimer was added: >> > >>>>>> "DCTCP, as >> > >>>>> described in >> > >>>>>> this specification, is applicable to deployments in >> > >>>>>> controlled >> > >>>>> environments >> > >>>>>> like data centers, but it must not be deployed over the >> > >>>>>> public >> > >>>>> Internet without >> > >>>>>> additional measures." I wonder if a similar disclaimer is >> > >>>>>> needed for >> > >>>>> DetNet. If >> > >>>>>> there is an implicit assumption that DetNet will  be used in >> > >>>>> homogenous >> > >>>>>> environments with mostly DetNet-aware devices within the same >> > >>>>> organization, >> > >>>>>> such an assumption should be made explicit. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on >> > >>>>>> network >> > >>>>> robustness >> > >>>>>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For >> > >>>>>> instance, misconfiguration or errors of functions performing >> > >>>>>> packet replication >> > >>>>> could >> > >>>>>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How >> > does >> > >>>>>> the >> > >>>>> DetNet >> > >>>>>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. >> > >>>>>> if >> > >>>>> the topology >> > >>>>>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be >> > solved >> > >>>>> by >> > >>>>>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are >> > >>>>> corresponding >> > >>>>>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that >> > >>>>>> filters and >> > >>>>> policers >> > >>>>>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still >> > >>>>>> assumes >> > >>>>> consistently >> > >>>>>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And >> > >>>>>> Section >> > >>>>> 3.3.2 is >> > >>>>>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" >> > >>>>>> without >> > >>>>> stating >> > >>>>>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further >> > solutions, >> > >>>>> such as >> > >>>>>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not discussed? >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of >> > >>>>>> failures >> > to >> > >>>>> the QoS of >> > >>>>>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to >> > >>>>>> protect >> > >>>>>> non- >> > >>>>> DetNet parts >> > >>>>>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. >> > Solutions to >> > >>>>> this >> > >>>>>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic >> > >>>>>> (e.g., in >> > >>>>> case of >> > >>>>>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not >> > >>>>>> discussed at >> > >>>>> all in the >> > >>>>>> document? >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Regarding security, an architecture like DetNet probably >> > >>>>>> requires >> > >>>>> that only >> > >>>>>> authenticated and authorized end systems have access to the >> > >>>>>> data >> > >>>>> plane. The >> > >>>>>> security considerations only briefly mention the control >> > >>>>>> aspect ("the authentication and authorization of the >> > >>>>>> controlling systems"). >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * For an architecture document, the lack of clarity and >> > >>>>>> consistency >> > >>>>> regarding >> > >>>>>> terminology is concerning. This specifically applies to the >> > >>>>>> case of >> > >>>>> incomplete >> > >>>>>> networks (as per Section 4.2.2 and 4.3.3) that include >> > >>>>>> "DetNet- >> > >>>>> unaware nodes". >> > >>>>>> The document introduces terms such as "DetNet intermediate >> > nodes" >> > >>>>>> but >> > >>>>> then >> > >>>>>> repeatedly uses generic terms such as "node" or "hop" that >> > >>>>>> may >> > >>>>> include >> > >>>>>> DetNet-unaware nodes. For instance, for incomplete networks, >> > >>>>>> a >> > >>>>> sentence such as >> > >>>>>> "The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS >> > >>>>>> assurances is >> > to >> > >>>>> reduce, or >> > >>>>>> even completely eliminate, congestion within a node as a >> > >>>>>> cause of >> > >>>>> packet loss" >> > >>>>>> seems to only apply to "DetNet transit nodes" but not >> > >>>>>> "DetNet-unaware >> > >>>>> nodes". >> > >>>>>> Similar ambiguity exist for other use of the terms "hop" and >> > >>>>>> "node", >> > >>>>> which may >> > >>>>>> or may not include DetNet-unaware nodes. It is unclear why >> > >>>>>> the >> > >>>>> document does >> > >>>>>> not consistently use the terminology introduced in Section >> > >>>>>> 2.1 in all >> > >>>>> sections >> > >>>>>> and clearly distinguishes cases with and without DetNet support. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational >> > >>>>>> RFC on >> > >>>>> IRTF stream, >> > >>>>>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., >> > >>>>>> "planes"). >> > >>>>> This is >> > >>>>>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should >> > >>>>>> probably >> > >>>>> refer to >> > >>>>>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC >> > >>>>>> 7491, albeit >> > >>>>> there is >> > >>>>>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, >> > >>>>>> Section >> > >>>>>> 4.4 >> > >>>>> is by and >> > >>>>>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not >> > >>>>>> specific to >> > >>>>> DetNet. >> > >>>>>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the >> > >>>>>> concepts >> > >>>>> introduced in >> > >>>>>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology >> > >>>>>> or >> > >>>>> discuss >> > >>>>>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly >> > >>>>>> at the >> > >>>>> end that >> > >>>>>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet architecture. >> > >>>>> It is not >> > >>>>>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 >> > >>>>>> could >> > >>>>> be removed >> > >>>>>> from the document without impacting the rest of the document. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Minor issues: >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in >> > >>>>>> the IETF, >> > >>>>> e.g. >> > >>>>>>     originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. >> > >>>>>> "transport >> > >>>>> network" is >> > >>>>>>     used in the IETF for different technologies in different >> > >>>>>> areas, I >> > >>>>> think the >> > >>>>>>     term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer >> > >>>>>> to >> > >>>>> transport >> > >>>>>>     protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find >> > >>>>>> the term >> > >>>>> "DetNet >> > >>>>>>     transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion >> > >>>>>> is easy >> > >>>>> to see e.g. >> > >>>>>>     in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as >> > >>>>>> per RFC >> > >>>>> 1122) sits >> > >>>>>>     on top of "transport". >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     Based on the document it also may be >> > >>>>>> solution/implementation >> > >>>>> specific whether >> > >>>>>>     the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate >> > >>>>>> protocol layer >> > >>>>> compared >> > >>>>>>     to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me >> > >>>>>> why the >> > >>>>> word >> > >>>>>>     "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination >> > >>>>>> "transport >> > >>>>> layer". >> > >>>>>>     To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport >> > >>>>>> protocol") >> > >>>>> should be >> > >>>>>>     used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with >> > >>>>>> RFC 1122. >> > >>>>> But this is >> > >>>>>>     probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 9 >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>      A DetNet node may have other resources requiring >> > >>>>>> allocation >> > >>>>> and/or >> > >>>>>>      scheduling, >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     This is just one of several examples for inconsistent use >> > >>>>>> of >> > >>>>> terminology. >> > >>>>>>     What is a "DetNet node"? That term is not introduced in >> > >>>>>> Section >> > >>>>> 2.1 >> > >>>>>> * Page 14 >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>      A DetNet network supports the dedication of a high >> > >>>>>> proportion >> > >>>>> (e.g. >> > >>>>>>      75%) of the network bandwidth to DetNet flows. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     The 75% value is not reasoned. What prevents using 99% of >> > >>>>>> the >> > >>>>> bandwidth for >> > >>>>>>     DetNet traffic? >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 15: Figure 2 >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     If the term "transport layer" cannot be avoided, the >> > >>>>>> labels in >> > >>>>> this figure >> > >>>>>>     should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport layer". >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 18: Figure 4 >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     As already mentioned earlier, Figure 4 is confusing. UDP >> > >>>>>> is a >> > >>>>> transport >> > >>>>>>     protocol. If the term "transport" cannot be avoided, the >> > >>>>>> labels in >> > >>>>> this >> > >>>>>>     figure should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport". >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 23 >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>      If the source transmits less data than this limit >> > >>>>>>      allows, the unused resource such as link bandwidth can >> > >>>>>> be made >> > >>>>>>      available by the system to non-DetNet packets. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     Could there be additional requirements on the use of >> > >>>>>> unused >> > >>>>> resources by >> > >>>>>>     non-DetNet packets, e.g., regarding preemption? I am just >> > >>>>> wondering... If >> > >>>>>>     that was possible, a statement like "... can be made >> > >>>>>> available by >> > >>>>> the system >> > >>>>>>     to non-DetNet packets as long as all guarantees are fulfilled" >> > >>>>> would be on >> > >>>>>>     the safe side, no? >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 27: >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>      DetNet achieves congestion protection and bounded >> > >>>>>> delivery >> > >>>>> latency by >> > >>>>>>      reserving bandwidth and buffer resources at every hop >> > >>>>>> along the >> > >>>>> path >> > >>>>>>      of the DetNet flow. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     Why does this sentence use the word "hop"? As far as I >> > >>>>>> understand, >> > >>>>> in DetNet >> > >>>>>>     bandwidth and buffer resources are reserved in each >> > >>>>>> DetNet >> > >>>>> intermediate node. >> > >>>>>>     If there were hops over IP routers not being DetNet >> > >>>>>> intermediate >> > >>>>> nodes, no >> > >>>>>>     resources would be reserved there. As per Section 4.3.3, >> > >>>>>> it is >> > >>>>> possible to >> > >>>>>>     deploy DetNet this way. And obviously there can be >> > >>>>>> resource >> > >>>>> bottlenecks below >> > >>>>>>     IP, on devices that are not routers... So does "hop" here >> > >>>>>> refer to >> > >>>>> IP router >> > >>>>>>     hops or also to devices not processing IP (or IP/MPLS)? >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 27: >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>      Standard queuing and transmission selection algorithms >> > >>>>>> allow a >> > >>>>>>      central controller to compute the latency contribution >> > >>>>>> of each >> > >>>>>>      transit node to the end-to-end latency, ... >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     The text does not explain why a _central_ controller is >> > >>>>>> needed for >> > >>>>> this >> > >>>>>>     computation. Why would a distributed control plane not be >> > >>>>>> able to >> > >>>>> realize >> > >>>>>>     this computation. Isn't this implementation-specific? >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 32 >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     To somebody who is not deeply familiar with DetNet, it is >> > >>>>> impossible to parse >> > >>>>>>     the description of the examples in Section 4.7.3. For >> > >>>>>> instance, >> > >>>>> "VID + >> > >>>>>>     multicast MAC address" is not introduced. I think this >> > >>>>>> example >> > >>>>> must be >> > >>>>>>     expaned with additional context and explanation to be >> > >>>>>> useful to >> > >>>>> readers. >> > >>>>>> * Page 34 >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>      There are three classes of information that a central >> > >>>>>> controller >> > >>>>> or >> > >>>>>>      distributed control plane needs to know that can only be >> > >>>>>> obtained >> > >>>>>>      from the end systems and/or nodes in the network. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     Wouldn't it be sufficient to state "Provisioning of >> > >>>>>> DetNet >> > >>>>> requires knowledge >> > >>>>>>     about ...". Does it matter in this context whether the >> > >>>>> provisioning is done >> > >>>>>>     by a central controller or a distributed control plane? >> > >>>>>> For >> > >>>>> instance, could >> > >>>>>>     the same paragraph also apply to a network that uses >> > >>>>>> _multiple_ >> > >>>>> central >> > >>>>>>     controllers, or hybrid combinations of central >> > >>>>>> controllers and >> > >>>>> distributed >> > >>>>>>     control planes? In general, an architecture document >> > >>>>>> should be >> > >>>>> agnostic to >> > >>>>>>     implementation aspects unless there is a specific need. >> > >>>>>> In this >> > >>>>> specific >> > >>>>>>     case, I fail to see a need to discuss the realization of >> > >>>>>> the >> > >>>>> control plane of >> > >>>>>>     a network. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Editorial nits: >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 9: >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>      The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 >> > >>>>>> provide the >> > >>>>>>      necessary regulation of transmissions by an end system >> > >>>>>> or >> > >>>>>>      intermediate node to provide congestion protection. The >> > >>>>> allocation >> > >>>>>>      of the bandwidth and buffers for a DetNet flow requires >> > >>>>> provisioning >> > >>>>>>      A DetNet node may have other resources requiring >> > >>>>>> allocation >> > >>>>> and/or >> > >>>>>>      scheduling, that might otherwise be over-subscribed and >> > >>>>>> trigger >> > >>>>> the >> > >>>>>>      rejection of a reservation. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     Probably a full stop is missing after "provisioning". >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 11: "... along separate (disjoint non-SRLG) paths ..." >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     I find this confusing. I would understand e.g. "along >> > >>>>>> separate >> > >>>>>>     (SRLG-disjoint) paths". >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 34: >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>      When using a peer- >> > >>>>>>      to-peer control plane, some of this information may be >> > >>>>>> required >> > >>>>> by a >> > >>>>>>      system's neighbors in the network. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     Would "acquired" be a better term? >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 34: >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>      o  The identity of the system's neighbors, and the >> > >>>>> characteristics of >> > >>>>>>         the link(s) between the systems, including the length >> > >>>>>> (in >> > >>>>>>         nanoseconds) of the link(s). >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     "Latency" or "delay" would probably be a better terms if >> > >>>>>> the value >> > >>>>> is >> > >>>>>>     measured in nanoseconds. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 35: >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>      DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as >> > >>>>>> such, does >> > >>>>> not >> > >>>>>>      directly raise any new privacy considerations. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     Broken sentence >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Please expand acronyms on first use (e.g., OTN) >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>> _______________________________________________ >> > >>>> detnet mailing list >> > >>>> detnet@ietf.org >> > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> detnet mailing list >> > >> detnet@ietf.org >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> > > >> > > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > detnet mailing list >> > detnet@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Tue Dec 11 03:45:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F35BF130DDF for ; 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Tue, 11 Dec 2018 04:45:35 -0700 From: Lou Berger To: =?UTF-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBWYXJnYSBB?= , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Black, David" , Janos Farkas CC: , Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 06:45:32 -0500 Message-ID: <1679d161f60.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <090ae5ba-e44c-f8fa-7259-5ab1b01fb23c@ericsson.com> <167991e4c98.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> <59a55a2e-45ac-ec18-8a7b-7b65490812e6@ericsson.com> User-Agent: AquaMail/1.17.0-1324 (build: 101700010) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.82.67 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gWgTm-000Igh-Ps X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-82-67.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([192.168.2.51]) [100.15.82.67]:56615 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 9 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 11:45:40 -0000 Balázs, In some systems that work on more than just queue management is needed, so I personally feel pretty strongly that we should not include the word queue. How about: 'flow management' Lou ---------- On December 11, 2018 2:21:19 AM Balázs Varga A wrote: > Hi, > > "queuing loss avoidance". > > I am partly with You. I think the to include the term "flow" is a good idea. > David has right, here we are focusing on flows. > > However I have problems with the "protection" part of the term, due to other > terminology we have already defined, namely service protection (e.g., PREOF). > I think for many people "DetNet" + "protection" = "PREOF". > > As Janos wrote: >> We wanted to have a brief collective term for the mechanisms used >> to avoid queuing related packet loss (including buffer overflow etc.). > and Pascal extended: > - and at the same time we want to fulfill the latency requirement of the flow. > > So, let's lists the functions we intend to describe with the term: > - selecting queuing method used and the queue used by the flow > - properly configuring queue parameters (e.g., egress speed, queue size, etc.), > based on latency and (zero) loss requirements for the flow/hop > > A possible way to put all these pieces together: > "flow queuing regulation " or "flow queuing management" > > Any thoughts? > > Cheers > Bala'zs > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2018 5:21 AM > To: Black, David ; Janos Farkas > ; Lou Berger > Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change > > "Flow Protection" looks good to me too... > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Black, David >> Sent: mardi 11 décembre 2018 05:40 >> To: János Farkas ; Lou Berger >> >> Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org >> Subject: RE: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change >> >> > >> Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along the path >> > >> of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. Congestion >> > >> protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, packet loss >> > >> due to output packet congestion within the network, but it can only >> > >> be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to a >> > >> maximum packet size and transmission rate. >> >> > >> We wanted to have a brief collective term for the mechanisms used >> > >> to avoid queuing related packet loss (including buffer overflow etc.). >> >> Perhaps "flow protection" as it protects individual flows and is >> configured/administered/managed at flow granularity?? >> >> The use of the word "resource" proposed below seems easy to mis-read >> as involving resources beyond the flow-by-flow scope of this functionality. >> >> Thanks, --David >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of János >> > Farkas >> > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 12:59 PM >> > To: Lou Berger >> > Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org >> > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change >> > >> > >> > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] >> > >> > I'm of course open to other alternatives. I'm interested to avoid >> > the confusion; just proposed an initial idea. >> > I'm afraid we won't find the ideal term, but it would be good to >> > have a good enough one. >> > >> > On 12/10/2018 3:47 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: >> > > The problem János is that we do not only avoid loss. We also >> > > control >> > latency. So "queuing loss" is too limitation. >> > > We are protecting the resources that are necessary, or providing >> > guarantees that they are available. To provide the service. >> > > Maybe "service guarantees" could be good? >> > > Pascal >> > I know, and it is also there in the document: >> > >> > "   Congestion protection addresses two of the DetNet QoS requirements: >> >    latency and packet loss.  Given that DetNet nodes have a finite >> >    amount of buffer space, congestion protection necessarily >> > results in >> >    a maximum end-to-end latency.  It also addresses the largest >> >    contribution to packet loss, which is buffer congestion." >> > >> > also: >> > "   The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 provide the >> >    necessary regulation of transmissions by an end system or DetNet >> > node >> >    to provide congestion protection.  The allocation of the >> > bandwidth >> >    and buffers for a DetNet flow requires provisioning.  A DetNet >> > node >> >    may have other resources requiring allocation and/or scheduling, >> > that >> >    might otherwise be over-subscribed and trigger the rejection of >> > a >> >    reservation." >> > >> > In other words, we need adequate queuing mechanism with appropriate >> > queue management plus resource allocation. >> > >> > On 12/10/2018 6:15 PM, Lou Berger wrote: >> > > Fwiw in the te world, we normally call this "resource allocation". >> > > As a contributor, I'd be comfortable with that term or "resource >> > > management". >> > >> > I'd prefer "resource management" out of these two because I can talk >> > into it that it is the combination of "resource allocation" and >> > queue management". >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Janos >> > >> > >> > > >> > > Lou >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ---------- >> > > On December 10, 2018 9:30:20 AM János Farkas >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > >> Hi, >> > >> >> > >> As I understand, there is confusion around two DetNet terms. >> > >> We are removing "transport". >> > >> >> > >> The other one is "congestion" and "congestion protection". >> > >> >> > >> Brief description of congestion protection in Section 3.1: >> > >> >> > >>     Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along >> > >> the path >> > >>     of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. >> > >> Congestion >> > >>     protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, >> > >> packet loss >> > >>     due to output packet congestion within the network, but it >> > >> can only >> > >>     be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to >> > >> a >> > >>     maximum packet size and transmission rate.  Note that >> > >> congestion >> > >>     protection provided via congestion detection and notification >> > >> is >> > >>     explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it >> > >> serves a >> > >>     different set of applications. >> > >> >> > >>     Congestion protection addresses two of the DetNet QoS requirements: >> > >>     latency and packet loss.  Given that DetNet nodes have a >> > >> finite >> > >>     amount of buffer space, congestion protection necessarily >> > >> results in >> > >>     a maximum end-to-end latency.  It also addresses the largest >> > >>     contribution to packet loss, which is buffer congestion. >> > >> >> > >> Detailed description is in Section 3.2.1. >> > >> >> > >> We wanted to have a brief collective term for the mechanisms used >> > >> to avoid queuing related packet loss (including buffer overflow etc.). >> > >> >> > >> Based on the discussions, we should have a term that does not >> > >> include "congestion". >> > >> ("Service Protection" is another DetNet term, hence we may >> > >> consider a term without "protection" to minimize confusion.) >> > >> >> > >> I suggest to replace "congestion protection" with "queuing loss >> > >> avoidance". >> > >> >> > >> After agreeing in the terminology cahnge (if any), the text has >> > >> to be updated accordingly. >> > >> >> > >> What do you think? >> > >> >> > >> Best regards, >> > >> Janos >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On 11/20/2018 1:11 PM, Lou Berger wrote: >> > >>> Michael, >> > >>> >> > >>> I think we're getting somewhere and identifying where we have >> > >>> disconnects and what may (and what may not) need to change in >> > >>> the document.  My takeaways are: >> > >>> >> > >>> - The document needs a good 'scrub' of the congestion related >> > >>> references to ensure that the document only makes statements on >> > what >> > >>> is actually done within a DetNet and the relationship with >> > >>> transport protocols that use detnet (which are in fact outside >> > >>> the scope of the DetNet WG).  I'll work with the authors and WG >> > >>> on this -- I see this change as important, but editorial in nature. >> > >>> >> > >>> - We have a perception issue with at least one member of the TSV >> > >>> area on the meaning and more importantly, implication, of the >> > >>> term "DetNet >> > >>> *Transport* sub-layer".  While I don't disagree that a good >> > >>> portion of the IETF thinks transport protocol (UDP/TCP) when >> > >>> they hear "transport" there are plenty others, particularly in >> > >>> the routing area, who understand that "transport" can refer to >> > >>> Transport Networks.  And Transport Network is a well understood >> > >>> general industry term. The IETF even has a bunch of RFCs that >> > >>> relate to Transport networks. This said, I think it reasonable >> > >>> to go back to the DetNet WG and discuss changing the name of the >> > >>> "DetNet Transport sub-layer"  to avoid the word "transport".  -- >> > >>> BTW we made a parallel change in the TEAS WG when producing >> RFC8453. >> > >>> >> > >>> See below for detail response in-line. >> > >>> >> > >>> On 11/19/2018 5:15 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote: >> > >>>> Lou, >> > >>>> >> > >>>>> -- >> > >>>>> I wanted to take a step back from the multiple discussions >> > >>>>> that were spawned by your review -- from a doc shepherd >> > >>>>> perspective, and see where we are.   I know that the authors >> > >>>>> have sent a -09 version that addresses some, but not all issues. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>>   From the exchanges I've seen, I think the key remaining >> > >>>>> issues are related to: >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> (a) possibly introduction of congestion in the general >> > >>>>> internet if packets were somehow to escape a detnet domain.  >> > >>>>> The source of >> > this >> > >>>>> congestion would be inelastic traffic using DetNet or due to >> > >>>>> congestion loss that is masked by PREOF. >> > >>>> These are two major issues that need to be addressed. Note that >> > >>>> it may not be sufficient just to add a section on operational >> > >>>> and deployment considerations. Also the existing text in the >> > >>>> document will need to get aligned to normative guidance on how >> > >>>> to avoid a congestion collapse. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> In -09, one example would be Section 3.1. "Primary goals >> > >>>> defining the DetNet QoS" >> > >>>> >> > >>>>     Congestion protection operates by allocating resources >> > >>>> along the path >> > >>>>     of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. >> > >>>> Congestion >> > >>>>     protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, >> > >>>> packet loss >> > >>>>     due to output packet congestion within the network, but it >> > >>>> can only >> > >>>>     be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source >> > >>>> to a >> > >>>>     maximum packet size and transmission rate.  Note that >> > >>>> congestion >> > >>>>     protection provided via congestion detection and >> > >>>> notification is >> > >>>>     explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it >> > >>>> serves a >> > >>>>     different set of applications. >> > >>> >> > >>>> At least the last sentence would contradict a better discussion >> > >>>> of congestion in the document. For instance, it could just be removed. >> > >>>> In any case, the current wording in the last sentence is not >> > >>>> correct, as the IETF term for what is described in the last >> > >>>> sentence is "congestion control". >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Another example would be  Section 3.2.1.1. "Eliminate congestion loss" >> > >>>>       The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS >> > >>>> assurances is to >> > >>>>     reduce, or even completely eliminate, congestion within a >> > >>>> DetNet node >> > >>>>     as a cause of packet loss.  This can be achieved only by >> > >>>> the >> > >>>>     provision of sufficient buffer storage at each node through >> > >>>> the >> > >>>>     network to ensure that no packets are dropped due to a lack >> > >>>> of buffer >> > >>>>     storage.  Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled, >> > >>>> i.e., its >> > >>>>     transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion >> > >>>>     notification. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> This section IMHO has to include a discussion of what happens >> > >>>> in the (not expected) case that packets get dropped or that ECN >> > >>>> marks are received. It is understood that this would not happen >> > >>>> in normal operation of a DetNet network, but I believe just >> > >>>> considering the error-free operation of a DetNet network is not >> > >>>> sufficient for this document. At least for the risk of traffic >> > >>>> that may escape from a DetNet network is inherently not >> > >>>> sufficient to assume that the DetNet network is always error-free. >> > >>> >> > >>> I think these are examples of text that needs to be cleanup up >> > >>> and to delineate what is done with a DetNet. >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>>> As a result, addressing my concerns will most likely require >> > >>>> editing several parts of the document. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review comment "It >> > >>>> is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network >> > >>>> robustness and safety" >> > >>> >> > >>> I have no idea what you mean by safety here.  Can you elaborate. >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>>> covers more than just inelastic traffic that escapes from a >> > >>>> DetNet network and masking of packet loss. Given that DetNet >> > >>>> traffic may be extremely critical traffic, I really wonder why >> > >>>> the document doesn't emphasize more the required robustness >> > >>>> against failures *inside* the DetNet network as well as >> > >>>> counter-measures. But this is something the WG needs to decide. >> > >>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I will be fine if the document clearly >> > >>>> describes how the impact of failures will be isolated inside >> > >>>> the DetNet network and will not put the general Internet at risk. >> > >>> >> > >>> I agree - I think, the document should be clear on it's scope >> > >>> and relationship to general internet usage. >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>>> (b) The use of the term 'transport' in DetNet to refer to what >> > >>>>> is basically a Traffic Engineered sub-network layer, such as >> > >>>>> is provided with MPLS-TE or Optical Transport Networks. >> > >>>> In the Internet architecture, the term 'transport' refers to >> > >>>> Internet transport protocols. I doubt that the document can >> > >>>> avoid discussing the implications of and interactions with >> > >>>> Internet transport protocols such as UDP or TCP. As a result, I >> > >>>> disagree that the document can use the term 'transport' to >> > >>>> refer to traffic engineered sub-network layers. >> > >>> >> > >>> I think this is covered by my comment above. >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>>>  From a TSV-ART point of view, the document can either only use >> > >>>> the term "transport" for Internet transport protocols and use >> > >>>> another term for sub-network layers (as handled in the >> > >>>> *routing* area of the IETF), or the document has to clearly >> > >>>> distinguish between the Internet transport layer and other uses >> > >>>> of the term "transport" and explain the overlap. I believe the >> > >>>> former would be less confusing, but I will leave it up to the >> > >>>> TSV ADs to discuss terminology overlap in the IESG. As TSV-ART >> > >>>> reviewer I insist that the document uses the terms "transport >> > >>>> layer" and "transport protocol" only when referring to the Internet >> transport layer. >> > >>> >> > >>> I'm personally okay with a name change and even willing to push >> > >>> this discussion within the WG, but as said above, "Transport >> > >>> Network" is a generally understood industry term that is also >> > >>> used in RFCs -- so we'll have to see what where WG consensus ends up. >> > >>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>>> Do you have any other issues that that are critical to be >> > >>>>> addressed before this work moves forward?  If so which? >> > >>>> Regarding Section 4.4 I have already deferred the discussion to >> > >>>> the IESG. The TSV-ART review comment is that the IESG needs to >> > >>>> carefully look at the concepts, terminology, and references in >> > >>>> section >> 4.4. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Regarding my other comments, I acknowledge that -09 is a step >> > >>>> forward. But given the cross-dependencies e.g. regarding >> > >>>> terminology and definitions, I will need to read the text >> > >>>> completely once there is a proposal how to address my review. >> > >>>> As noted in my review, I believe the document must use >> > >>>> terminology >> clearly and consistently. >> > >>>> As example, a statement in -09 such as "Network nodes >> > >>>> supporting DetNet flows have to implement some of the DetNet >> > >>>> capabilities (not necessarily all) in order to treat DetNet >> > >>>> flows such that their QoS requirements are met" is IMHO too >> > >>>> vague. But in such cases it depends whether there is precise >> > >>>> normative guidance elsewhere. And this requires looking at the text >> as a whole. >> > >>> >> > >>> I think the next steps lie with me and the WG.  We'll let you >> > >>> know once there is a new version.  Of course, you can also >> > >>> contribute to the WG discussion on the topic. >> > >>> >> > >>> Thanks, >> > >>> >> > >>> Lou >> > >>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Best regards >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Michael >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>>> Thank you, >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> Lou >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> On 9/28/2018 6:24 PM, Michael Scharf wrote: >> > >>>>>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf >> > >>>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" >> > >>>>>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall >> > >>>>>> framework for Deterministic Networking. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues >> > >>>>>> as >> > >>>>> detailed below. >> > >>>>>> Michael >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Major issues: >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * It seems that DetNet cannot easily be deployed in the >> > >>>>>> Internet >> > >>>>> without >> > >>>>>> additional means. Thus, for a baseline document, one could >> > >>>>>> expect >> > >>>>> some >> > >>>>>> explanation on the requirements of deploying DetNet in a network. >> > >>>>> DetNet >> > >>>>>> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices >> > >>>>> transporting DetNet >> > >>>>>> traffic. That assumption should be explicitly spelt out early >> > >>>>>> in the >> > >>>>> document, >> > >>>>>> e.g., in the introduction. There also needs to be an explicit >> > >>>>> discussion of the >> > >>>>>> implications if not the whole network is aware of or supports >> > >>>>>> DetNet. >> > >>>>> There is >> > >>>>>> some text in Section 4.2.2 and Section 4.3.3, but I believe >> > >>>>> additional explicit >> > >>>>>> discussion is needed at a prominant place. For instance, can >> > >>>>>> use of >> > >>>>> DetNet do >> > >>>>>> harm to parts of a network not supporting DetNet? As a side >> > >>>>>> note, >> > >>>>> when TCPM >> > >>>>>> published RFC 8257, the following disclaimer was added: >> > >>>>>> "DCTCP, as >> > >>>>> described in >> > >>>>>> this specification, is applicable to deployments in >> > >>>>>> controlled >> > >>>>> environments >> > >>>>>> like data centers, but it must not be deployed over the >> > >>>>>> public >> > >>>>> Internet without >> > >>>>>> additional measures." I wonder if a similar disclaimer is >> > >>>>>> needed for >> > >>>>> DetNet. If >> > >>>>>> there is an implicit assumption that DetNet will  be used in >> > >>>>> homogenous >> > >>>>>> environments with mostly DetNet-aware devices within the same >> > >>>>> organization, >> > >>>>>> such an assumption should be made explicit. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on >> > >>>>>> network >> > >>>>> robustness >> > >>>>>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For >> > >>>>>> instance, misconfiguration or errors of functions performing >> > >>>>>> packet replication >> > >>>>> could >> > >>>>>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How >> > does >> > >>>>>> the >> > >>>>> DetNet >> > >>>>>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. >> > >>>>>> if >> > >>>>> the topology >> > >>>>>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be >> > solved >> > >>>>> by >> > >>>>>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are >> > >>>>> corresponding >> > >>>>>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that >> > >>>>>> filters and >> > >>>>> policers >> > >>>>>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still >> > >>>>>> assumes >> > >>>>> consistently >> > >>>>>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And >> > >>>>>> Section >> > >>>>> 3.3.2 is >> > >>>>>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" >> > >>>>>> without >> > >>>>> stating >> > >>>>>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further >> > solutions, >> > >>>>> such as >> > >>>>>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not discussed? >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of >> > >>>>>> failures >> > to >> > >>>>> the QoS of >> > >>>>>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to >> > >>>>>> protect >> > >>>>>> non- >> > >>>>> DetNet parts >> > >>>>>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. >> > Solutions to >> > >>>>> this >> > >>>>>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic >> > >>>>>> (e.g., in >> > >>>>> case of >> > >>>>>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not >> > >>>>>> discussed at >> > >>>>> all in the >> > >>>>>> document? >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Regarding security, an architecture like DetNet probably >> > >>>>>> requires >> > >>>>> that only >> > >>>>>> authenticated and authorized end systems have access to the >> > >>>>>> data >> > >>>>> plane. The >> > >>>>>> security considerations only briefly mention the control >> > >>>>>> aspect ("the authentication and authorization of the >> > >>>>>> controlling systems"). >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * For an architecture document, the lack of clarity and >> > >>>>>> consistency >> > >>>>> regarding >> > >>>>>> terminology is concerning. This specifically applies to the >> > >>>>>> case of >> > >>>>> incomplete >> > >>>>>> networks (as per Section 4.2.2 and 4.3.3) that include >> > >>>>>> "DetNet- >> > >>>>> unaware nodes". >> > >>>>>> The document introduces terms such as "DetNet intermediate >> > nodes" >> > >>>>>> but >> > >>>>> then >> > >>>>>> repeatedly uses generic terms such as "node" or "hop" that >> > >>>>>> may >> > >>>>> include >> > >>>>>> DetNet-unaware nodes. For instance, for incomplete networks, >> > >>>>>> a >> > >>>>> sentence such as >> > >>>>>> "The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS >> > >>>>>> assurances is >> > to >> > >>>>> reduce, or >> > >>>>>> even completely eliminate, congestion within a node as a >> > >>>>>> cause of >> > >>>>> packet loss" >> > >>>>>> seems to only apply to "DetNet transit nodes" but not >> > >>>>>> "DetNet-unaware >> > >>>>> nodes". >> > >>>>>> Similar ambiguity exist for other use of the terms "hop" and >> > >>>>>> "node", >> > >>>>> which may >> > >>>>>> or may not include DetNet-unaware nodes. It is unclear why >> > >>>>>> the >> > >>>>> document does >> > >>>>>> not consistently use the terminology introduced in Section >> > >>>>>> 2.1 in all >> > >>>>> sections >> > >>>>>> and clearly distinguishes cases with and without DetNet support. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational >> > >>>>>> RFC on >> > >>>>> IRTF stream, >> > >>>>>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., >> > >>>>>> "planes"). >> > >>>>> This is >> > >>>>>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should >> > >>>>>> probably >> > >>>>> refer to >> > >>>>>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC >> > >>>>>> 7491, albeit >> > >>>>> there is >> > >>>>>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, >> > >>>>>> Section >> > >>>>>> 4.4 >> > >>>>> is by and >> > >>>>>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not >> > >>>>>> specific to >> > >>>>> DetNet. >> > >>>>>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the >> > >>>>>> concepts >> > >>>>> introduced in >> > >>>>>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology >> > >>>>>> or >> > >>>>> discuss >> > >>>>>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly >> > >>>>>> at the >> > >>>>> end that >> > >>>>>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet architecture. >> > >>>>> It is not >> > >>>>>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 >> > >>>>>> could >> > >>>>> be removed >> > >>>>>> from the document without impacting the rest of the document. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Minor issues: >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in >> > >>>>>> the IETF, >> > >>>>> e.g. >> > >>>>>>     originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. >> > >>>>>> "transport >> > >>>>> network" is >> > >>>>>>     used in the IETF for different technologies in different >> > >>>>>> areas, I >> > >>>>> think the >> > >>>>>>     term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer >> > >>>>>> to >> > >>>>> transport >> > >>>>>>     protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find >> > >>>>>> the term >> > >>>>> "DetNet >> > >>>>>>     transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion >> > >>>>>> is easy >> > >>>>> to see e.g. >> > >>>>>>     in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as >> > >>>>>> per RFC >> > >>>>> 1122) sits >> > >>>>>>     on top of "transport". >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     Based on the document it also may be >> > >>>>>> solution/implementation >> > >>>>> specific whether >> > >>>>>>     the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate >> > >>>>>> protocol layer >> > >>>>> compared >> > >>>>>>     to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me >> > >>>>>> why the >> > >>>>> word >> > >>>>>>     "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination >> > >>>>>> "transport >> > >>>>> layer". >> > >>>>>>     To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport >> > >>>>>> protocol") >> > >>>>> should be >> > >>>>>>     used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with >> > >>>>>> RFC 1122. >> > >>>>> But this is >> > >>>>>>     probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 9 >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>      A DetNet node may have other resources requiring >> > >>>>>> allocation >> > >>>>> and/or >> > >>>>>>      scheduling, >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     This is just one of several examples for inconsistent use >> > >>>>>> of >> > >>>>> terminology. >> > >>>>>>     What is a "DetNet node"? That term is not introduced in >> > >>>>>> Section >> > >>>>> 2.1 >> > >>>>>> * Page 14 >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>      A DetNet network supports the dedication of a high >> > >>>>>> proportion >> > >>>>> (e.g. >> > >>>>>>      75%) of the network bandwidth to DetNet flows. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     The 75% value is not reasoned. What prevents using 99% of >> > >>>>>> the >> > >>>>> bandwidth for >> > >>>>>>     DetNet traffic? >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 15: Figure 2 >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     If the term "transport layer" cannot be avoided, the >> > >>>>>> labels in >> > >>>>> this figure >> > >>>>>>     should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport layer". >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 18: Figure 4 >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     As already mentioned earlier, Figure 4 is confusing. UDP >> > >>>>>> is a >> > >>>>> transport >> > >>>>>>     protocol. If the term "transport" cannot be avoided, the >> > >>>>>> labels in >> > >>>>> this >> > >>>>>>     figure should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport". >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 23 >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>      If the source transmits less data than this limit >> > >>>>>>      allows, the unused resource such as link bandwidth can >> > >>>>>> be made >> > >>>>>>      available by the system to non-DetNet packets. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     Could there be additional requirements on the use of >> > >>>>>> unused >> > >>>>> resources by >> > >>>>>>     non-DetNet packets, e.g., regarding preemption? I am just >> > >>>>> wondering... If >> > >>>>>>     that was possible, a statement like "... can be made >> > >>>>>> available by >> > >>>>> the system >> > >>>>>>     to non-DetNet packets as long as all guarantees are fulfilled" >> > >>>>> would be on >> > >>>>>>     the safe side, no? >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 27: >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>      DetNet achieves congestion protection and bounded >> > >>>>>> delivery >> > >>>>> latency by >> > >>>>>>      reserving bandwidth and buffer resources at every hop >> > >>>>>> along the >> > >>>>> path >> > >>>>>>      of the DetNet flow. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     Why does this sentence use the word "hop"? As far as I >> > >>>>>> understand, >> > >>>>> in DetNet >> > >>>>>>     bandwidth and buffer resources are reserved in each >> > >>>>>> DetNet >> > >>>>> intermediate node. >> > >>>>>>     If there were hops over IP routers not being DetNet >> > >>>>>> intermediate >> > >>>>> nodes, no >> > >>>>>>     resources would be reserved there. As per Section 4.3.3, >> > >>>>>> it is >> > >>>>> possible to >> > >>>>>>     deploy DetNet this way. And obviously there can be >> > >>>>>> resource >> > >>>>> bottlenecks below >> > >>>>>>     IP, on devices that are not routers... So does "hop" here >> > >>>>>> refer to >> > >>>>> IP router >> > >>>>>>     hops or also to devices not processing IP (or IP/MPLS)? >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 27: >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>      Standard queuing and transmission selection algorithms >> > >>>>>> allow a >> > >>>>>>      central controller to compute the latency contribution >> > >>>>>> of each >> > >>>>>>      transit node to the end-to-end latency, ... >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     The text does not explain why a _central_ controller is >> > >>>>>> needed for >> > >>>>> this >> > >>>>>>     computation. Why would a distributed control plane not be >> > >>>>>> able to >> > >>>>> realize >> > >>>>>>     this computation. Isn't this implementation-specific? >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 32 >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     To somebody who is not deeply familiar with DetNet, it is >> > >>>>> impossible to parse >> > >>>>>>     the description of the examples in Section 4.7.3. For >> > >>>>>> instance, >> > >>>>> "VID + >> > >>>>>>     multicast MAC address" is not introduced. I think this >> > >>>>>> example >> > >>>>> must be >> > >>>>>>     expaned with additional context and explanation to be >> > >>>>>> useful to >> > >>>>> readers. >> > >>>>>> * Page 34 >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>      There are three classes of information that a central >> > >>>>>> controller >> > >>>>> or >> > >>>>>>      distributed control plane needs to know that can only be >> > >>>>>> obtained >> > >>>>>>      from the end systems and/or nodes in the network. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     Wouldn't it be sufficient to state "Provisioning of >> > >>>>>> DetNet >> > >>>>> requires knowledge >> > >>>>>>     about ...". Does it matter in this context whether the >> > >>>>> provisioning is done >> > >>>>>>     by a central controller or a distributed control plane? >> > >>>>>> For >> > >>>>> instance, could >> > >>>>>>     the same paragraph also apply to a network that uses >> > >>>>>> _multiple_ >> > >>>>> central >> > >>>>>>     controllers, or hybrid combinations of central >> > >>>>>> controllers and >> > >>>>> distributed >> > >>>>>>     control planes? In general, an architecture document >> > >>>>>> should be >> > >>>>> agnostic to >> > >>>>>>     implementation aspects unless there is a specific need. >> > >>>>>> In this >> > >>>>> specific >> > >>>>>>     case, I fail to see a need to discuss the realization of >> > >>>>>> the >> > >>>>> control plane of >> > >>>>>>     a network. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Editorial nits: >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 9: >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>      The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 >> > >>>>>> provide the >> > >>>>>>      necessary regulation of transmissions by an end system >> > >>>>>> or >> > >>>>>>      intermediate node to provide congestion protection. The >> > >>>>> allocation >> > >>>>>>      of the bandwidth and buffers for a DetNet flow requires >> > >>>>> provisioning >> > >>>>>>      A DetNet node may have other resources requiring >> > >>>>>> allocation >> > >>>>> and/or >> > >>>>>>      scheduling, that might otherwise be over-subscribed and >> > >>>>>> trigger >> > >>>>> the >> > >>>>>>      rejection of a reservation. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     Probably a full stop is missing after "provisioning". >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 11: "... along separate (disjoint non-SRLG) paths ..." >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     I find this confusing. I would understand e.g. "along >> > >>>>>> separate >> > >>>>>>     (SRLG-disjoint) paths". >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 34: >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>      When using a peer- >> > >>>>>>      to-peer control plane, some of this information may be >> > >>>>>> required >> > >>>>> by a >> > >>>>>>      system's neighbors in the network. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     Would "acquired" be a better term? >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 34: >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>      o  The identity of the system's neighbors, and the >> > >>>>> characteristics of >> > >>>>>>         the link(s) between the systems, including the length >> > >>>>>> (in >> > >>>>>>         nanoseconds) of the link(s). >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     "Latency" or "delay" would probably be a better terms if >> > >>>>>> the value >> > >>>>> is >> > >>>>>>     measured in nanoseconds. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Page 35: >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>      DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as >> > >>>>>> such, does >> > >>>>> not >> > >>>>>>      directly raise any new privacy considerations. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>     Broken sentence >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> * Please expand acronyms on first use (e.g., OTN) >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>> _______________________________________________ >> > >>>> detnet mailing list >> > >>>> detnet@ietf.org >> > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> detnet mailing list >> > >> detnet@ietf.org >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> > > >> > > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > detnet mailing list >> > detnet@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Tue Dec 11 03:58:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost 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"draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change Thread-Index: AQHUkLINAuax1Y60tEqcHIyYMT8lGKV5KC4A///HuPCAAJdKgIAASgsAgAADQoA= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 11:58:30 +0000 Message-ID: <2A75E68D-2A59-4528-B008-418A613227B6@cisco.com> References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <090ae5ba-e44c-f8fa-7259-5ab1b01fb23c@ericsson.com> <167991e4c98.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> <59a55a2e-45ac-ec18-8a7b-7b65490812e6@ericsson.com> <1679d161f60.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <1679d161f60.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.11, xch-rcd-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-10.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 11:58:48 -0000 TWFuYWdlbWVudCBsb29rcyBsaWtlIGNvbnRyb2wgcGxhbmUsIExvdSwgZG9u4oCZdCB5b3UgdGhp bms/DQpEYXZpZOKAmXMgZmxvdyBwcm90ZWN0aW9uIGFsc28gaW5kaWNhdGVzIHRoZSBpbnRlcmVz dGluZyBzZWN1cml0eSBwcm9wZXJ0aWVzIHRoYXQgd2UgYXJlIGVmZmVjdGl2ZWx5IGJyaW5naW5n IGluLi4uDQoNCg0KUmVnYXJkcywNCg0KUGFzY2FsDQoNCj4gTGUgMTEgZMOpYy4gMjAxOCDDoCAx NTo0NSwgTG91IEJlcmdlciA8bGJlcmdlckBsYWJuLm5ldD4gYSDDqWNyaXQgOg0KPiANCj4gQmFs w6F6cywNCj4gDQo+IEluIHNvbWUgc3lzdGVtcyB0aGF0IHdvcmsgb24gIG1vcmUgdGhhbiBqdXN0 IHF1ZXVlIG1hbmFnZW1lbnQgaXMgbmVlZGVkLCBzbyBJIHBlcnNvbmFsbHkgZmVlbCBwcmV0dHkg 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b3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZGV0bmV0DQo+PiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPj4gZGV0bmV0IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPj4gZGV0bmV0 QGlldGYub3JnDQo+PiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2RldG5l dA0KPiANCj4gDQo= From nobody Tue Dec 11 04:39:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6D6130DD6 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 04:39:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com 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Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=bZDI8nx23lNp2qvtUHJ0MQuk7EUJLP2vzeBFJpOIE9I=; b=BF87Kw+YW2u/M/pXH2vE4xWcI4 gVmgBNpgWYePQ1n0sJqm0oYnW2fjLygcmO1tdt3n8i3+PhfN4C0hjjfA/2z9SmjYX0grfsmuZvS+5 Dj96YUN7hWXdcu3MWWFJ40ckb; Received: from pool-100-15-82-67.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.82.67]:59669 helo=[11.4.0.65]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gWhKH-000a1Z-HK; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 05:39:49 -0700 From: Lou Berger To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" CC: =?UTF-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBWYXJnYSBB?= , "Black, David" , Janos Farkas , , Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 07:39:46 -0500 Message-ID: <1679d47c650.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <2A75E68D-2A59-4528-B008-418A613227B6@cisco.com> References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> 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[100.15.82.67]:59669 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 12:39:55 -0000 Protection has very specific meaning in transport networks and I think would lead to great confusion. I see no issue with the term management implying control(er) plane, as there will be some level of control here whether it be centralized or distributed. This whole discussion is sort of why 'resource allocation' ended up being used in the TE context. If that term and 'flow management' don't work, I think 'resource management' is at the top of my personal list. Lou ---------- On December 11, 2018 6:59:26 AM "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" wrote: > Management looks like control plane, Lou, don’t you think? > David’s flow protection also indicates the interesting security properties > that we are effectively bringing in... > > > Regards, > > Pascal > >> Le 11 déc. 2018 à 15:45, Lou Berger a écrit : >> >> Balázs, >> >> In some systems that work on more than just queue management is needed, so >> I personally feel pretty strongly that we should not include the word >> queue. How about: >> >> 'flow management' >> >> Lou >> >> >> >> ---------- >>> On December 11, 2018 2:21:19 AM Balázs Varga A >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> "queuing loss avoidance". >>> >>> I am partly with You. I think the to include the term "flow" is a good idea. >>> David has right, here we are focusing on flows. >>> >>> However I have problems with the "protection" part of the term, due to other >>> terminology we have already defined, namely service protection (e.g., PREOF). >>> I think for many people "DetNet" + "protection" = "PREOF". >>> >>> As Janos wrote: >>>> We wanted to have a brief collective term for the mechanisms used >>>> to avoid queuing related packet loss (including buffer overflow etc.). >>> and Pascal extended: >>> - and at the same time we want to fulfill the latency requirement of the flow. >>> >>> So, let's lists the functions we intend to describe with the term: >>> - selecting queuing method used and the queue used by the flow >>> - properly configuring queue parameters (e.g., egress speed, queue size, etc.), >>> based on latency and (zero) loss requirements for the flow/hop >>> >>> A possible way to put all these pieces together: >>> "flow queuing regulation " or "flow queuing management" >>> >>> Any thoughts? >>> >>> Cheers >>> Bala'zs >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2018 5:21 AM >>> To: Black, David ; Janos Farkas >>> ; Lou Berger >>> Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org >>> Subject: RE: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change >>> >>> "Flow Protection" looks good to me too... >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Black, David >>>> Sent: mardi 11 décembre 2018 05:40 >>>> To: János Farkas ; Lou Berger >>>> >>>> Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org >>>> Subject: RE: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change >>>> >>>> > >> Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along the path >>>> > >> of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. Congestion >>>> > >> protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, packet loss >>>> > >> due to output packet congestion within the network, but it can only >>>> > >> be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to a >>>> > >> maximum packet size and transmission rate. >>>> >>>> > >> We wanted to have a brief collective term for the mechanisms used >>>> > >> to avoid queuing related packet loss (including buffer overflow etc.). >>>> >>>> Perhaps "flow protection" as it protects individual flows and is >>>> configured/administered/managed at flow granularity?? >>>> >>>> The use of the word "resource" proposed below seems easy to mis-read >>>> as involving resources beyond the flow-by-flow scope of this functionality. >>>> >>>> Thanks, --David >>>> >>>> >>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>> > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of János >>>> > Farkas >>>> > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 12:59 PM >>>> > To: Lou Berger >>>> > Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org >>>> > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] >>>> > >>>> > I'm of course open to other alternatives. I'm interested to avoid >>>> > the confusion; just proposed an initial idea. >>>> > I'm afraid we won't find the ideal term, but it would be good to >>>> > have a good enough one. >>>> > >>>> > On 12/10/2018 3:47 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: >>>> > > The problem János is that we do not only avoid loss. We also >>>> > > control >>>> > latency. So "queuing loss" is too limitation. >>>> > > We are protecting the resources that are necessary, or providing >>>> > guarantees that they are available. To provide the service. >>>> > > Maybe "service guarantees" could be good? >>>> > > Pascal >>>> > I know, and it is also there in the document: >>>> > >>>> > " Congestion protection addresses two of the DetNet QoS requirements: >>>> > latency and packet loss. Given that DetNet nodes have a finite >>>> > amount of buffer space, congestion protection necessarily >>>> > results in >>>> > a maximum end-to-end latency. It also addresses the largest >>>> > contribution to packet loss, which is buffer congestion." >>>> > >>>> > also: >>>> > " The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 provide the >>>> > necessary regulation of transmissions by an end system or DetNet >>>> > node >>>> > to provide congestion protection. The allocation of the >>>> > bandwidth >>>> > and buffers for a DetNet flow requires provisioning. A DetNet >>>> > node >>>> > may have other resources requiring allocation and/or scheduling, >>>> > that >>>> > might otherwise be over-subscribed and trigger the rejection of >>>> > a >>>> > reservation." >>>> > >>>> > In other words, we need adequate queuing mechanism with appropriate >>>> > queue management plus resource allocation. >>>> > >>>> > On 12/10/2018 6:15 PM, Lou Berger wrote: >>>> > > Fwiw in the te world, we normally call this "resource allocation". >>>> > > As a contributor, I'd be comfortable with that term or "resource >>>> > > management". >>>> > >>>> > I'd prefer "resource management" out of these two because I can talk >>>> > into it that it is the combination of "resource allocation" and >>>> > queue management". >>>> > >>>> > Thanks, >>>> > Janos >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > > >>>> > > Lou >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ---------- >>>> > > On December 10, 2018 9:30:20 AM János Farkas >>>> > > wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > >> Hi, >>>> > >> >>>> > >> As I understand, there is confusion around two DetNet terms. >>>> > >> We are removing "transport". >>>> > >> >>>> > >> The other one is "congestion" and "congestion protection". >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Brief description of congestion protection in Section 3.1: >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along >>>> > >> the path >>>> > >> of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. >>>> > >> Congestion >>>> > >> protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, >>>> > >> packet loss >>>> > >> due to output packet congestion within the network, but it >>>> > >> can only >>>> > >> be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to >>>> > >> a >>>> > >> maximum packet size and transmission rate. Note that >>>> > >> congestion >>>> > >> protection provided via congestion detection and notification >>>> > >> is >>>> > >> explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it >>>> > >> serves a >>>> > >> different set of applications. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Congestion protection addresses two of the DetNet QoS requirements: >>>> > >> latency and packet loss. Given that DetNet nodes have a >>>> > >> finite >>>> > >> amount of buffer space, congestion protection necessarily >>>> > >> results in >>>> > >> a maximum end-to-end latency. It also addresses the largest >>>> > >> contribution to packet loss, which is buffer congestion. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Detailed description is in Section 3.2.1. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> We wanted to have a brief collective term for the mechanisms used >>>> > >> to avoid queuing related packet loss (including buffer overflow etc.). >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Based on the discussions, we should have a term that does not >>>> > >> include "congestion". >>>> > >> ("Service Protection" is another DetNet term, hence we may >>>> > >> consider a term without "protection" to minimize confusion.) >>>> > >> >>>> > >> I suggest to replace "congestion protection" with "queuing loss >>>> > >> avoidance". >>>> > >> >>>> > >> After agreeing in the terminology cahnge (if any), the text has >>>> > >> to be updated accordingly. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> What do you think? >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Best regards, >>>> > >> Janos >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> On 11/20/2018 1:11 PM, Lou Berger wrote: >>>> > >>> Michael, >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> I think we're getting somewhere and identifying where we have >>>> > >>> disconnects and what may (and what may not) need to change in >>>> > >>> the document. My takeaways are: >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> - The document needs a good 'scrub' of the congestion related >>>> > >>> references to ensure that the document only makes statements on >>>> > what >>>> > >>> is actually done within a DetNet and the relationship with >>>> > >>> transport protocols that use detnet (which are in fact outside >>>> > >>> the scope of the DetNet WG). I'll work with the authors and WG >>>> > >>> on this -- I see this change as important, but editorial in nature. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> - We have a perception issue with at least one member of the TSV >>>> > >>> area on the meaning and more importantly, implication, of the >>>> > >>> term "DetNet >>>> > >>> *Transport* sub-layer". While I don't disagree that a good >>>> > >>> portion of the IETF thinks transport protocol (UDP/TCP) when >>>> > >>> they hear "transport" there are plenty others, particularly in >>>> > >>> the routing area, who understand that "transport" can refer to >>>> > >>> Transport Networks. And Transport Network is a well understood >>>> > >>> general industry term. The IETF even has a bunch of RFCs that >>>> > >>> relate to Transport networks. This said, I think it reasonable >>>> > >>> to go back to the DetNet WG and discuss changing the name of the >>>> > >>> "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to avoid the word "transport". -- >>>> > >>> BTW we made a parallel change in the TEAS WG when producing >>>> RFC8453. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> See below for detail response in-line. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> On 11/19/2018 5:15 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote: >>>> > >>>> Lou, >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>>> -- >>>> > >>>>> I wanted to take a step back from the multiple discussions >>>> > >>>>> that were spawned by your review -- from a doc shepherd >>>> > >>>>> perspective, and see where we are. I know that the authors >>>> > >>>>> have sent a -09 version that addresses some, but not all issues. >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> From the exchanges I've seen, I think the key remaining >>>> > >>>>> issues are related to: >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> (a) possibly introduction of congestion in the general >>>> > >>>>> internet if packets were somehow to escape a detnet domain. >>>> > >>>>> The source of >>>> > this >>>> > >>>>> congestion would be inelastic traffic using DetNet or due to >>>> > >>>>> congestion loss that is masked by PREOF. >>>> > >>>> These are two major issues that need to be addressed. Note that >>>> > >>>> it may not be sufficient just to add a section on operational >>>> > >>>> and deployment considerations. Also the existing text in the >>>> > >>>> document will need to get aligned to normative guidance on how >>>> > >>>> to avoid a congestion collapse. >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> In -09, one example would be Section 3.1. "Primary goals >>>> > >>>> defining the DetNet QoS" >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> Congestion protection operates by allocating resources >>>> > >>>> along the path >>>> > >>>> of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. >>>> > >>>> Congestion >>>> > >>>> protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, >>>> > >>>> packet loss >>>> > >>>> due to output packet congestion within the network, but it >>>> > >>>> can only >>>> > >>>> be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source >>>> > >>>> to a >>>> > >>>> maximum packet size and transmission rate. Note that >>>> > >>>> congestion >>>> > >>>> protection provided via congestion detection and >>>> > >>>> notification is >>>> > >>>> explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it >>>> > >>>> serves a >>>> > >>>> different set of applications. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>>> At least the last sentence would contradict a better discussion >>>> > >>>> of congestion in the document. For instance, it could just be removed. >>>> > >>>> In any case, the current wording in the last sentence is not >>>> > >>>> correct, as the IETF term for what is described in the last >>>> > >>>> sentence is "congestion control". >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> Another example would be Section 3.2.1.1. "Eliminate congestion loss" >>>> > >>>> The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS >>>> > >>>> assurances is to >>>> > >>>> reduce, or even completely eliminate, congestion within a >>>> > >>>> DetNet node >>>> > >>>> as a cause of packet loss. This can be achieved only by >>>> > >>>> the >>>> > >>>> provision of sufficient buffer storage at each node through >>>> > >>>> the >>>> > >>>> network to ensure that no packets are dropped due to a lack >>>> > >>>> of buffer >>>> > >>>> storage. Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled, >>>> > >>>> i.e., its >>>> > >>>> transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion >>>> > >>>> notification. >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> This section IMHO has to include a discussion of what happens >>>> > >>>> in the (not expected) case that packets get dropped or that ECN >>>> > >>>> marks are received. It is understood that this would not happen >>>> > >>>> in normal operation of a DetNet network, but I believe just >>>> > >>>> considering the error-free operation of a DetNet network is not >>>> > >>>> sufficient for this document. At least for the risk of traffic >>>> > >>>> that may escape from a DetNet network is inherently not >>>> > >>>> sufficient to assume that the DetNet network is always error-free. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> I think these are examples of text that needs to be cleanup up >>>> > >>> and to delineate what is done with a DetNet. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>>> As a result, addressing my concerns will most likely require >>>> > >>>> editing several parts of the document. >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review comment "It >>>> > >>>> is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network >>>> > >>>> robustness and safety" >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> I have no idea what you mean by safety here. Can you elaborate. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>>> covers more than just inelastic traffic that escapes from a >>>> > >>>> DetNet network and masking of packet loss. Given that DetNet >>>> > >>>> traffic may be extremely critical traffic, I really wonder why >>>> > >>>> the document doesn't emphasize more the required robustness >>>> > >>>> against failures *inside* the DetNet network as well as >>>> > >>>> counter-measures. But this is something the WG needs to decide. >>>> > >>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I will be fine if the document clearly >>>> > >>>> describes how the impact of failures will be isolated inside >>>> > >>>> the DetNet network and will not put the general Internet at risk. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> I agree - I think, the document should be clear on it's scope >>>> > >>> and relationship to general internet usage. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>>> (b) The use of the term 'transport' in DetNet to refer to what >>>> > >>>>> is basically a Traffic Engineered sub-network layer, such as >>>> > >>>>> is provided with MPLS-TE or Optical Transport Networks. >>>> > >>>> In the Internet architecture, the term 'transport' refers to >>>> > >>>> Internet transport protocols. I doubt that the document can >>>> > >>>> avoid discussing the implications of and interactions with >>>> > >>>> Internet transport protocols such as UDP or TCP. As a result, I >>>> > >>>> disagree that the document can use the term 'transport' to >>>> > >>>> refer to traffic engineered sub-network layers. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> I think this is covered by my comment above. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>>> From a TSV-ART point of view, the document can either only use >>>> > >>>> the term "transport" for Internet transport protocols and use >>>> > >>>> another term for sub-network layers (as handled in the >>>> > >>>> *routing* area of the IETF), or the document has to clearly >>>> > >>>> distinguish between the Internet transport layer and other uses >>>> > >>>> of the term "transport" and explain the overlap. I believe the >>>> > >>>> former would be less confusing, but I will leave it up to the >>>> > >>>> TSV ADs to discuss terminology overlap in the IESG. As TSV-ART >>>> > >>>> reviewer I insist that the document uses the terms "transport >>>> > >>>> layer" and "transport protocol" only when referring to the Internet >>>> transport layer. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> I'm personally okay with a name change and even willing to push >>>> > >>> this discussion within the WG, but as said above, "Transport >>>> > >>> Network" is a generally understood industry term that is also >>>> > >>> used in RFCs -- so we'll have to see what where WG consensus ends up. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>>> Do you have any other issues that that are critical to be >>>> > >>>>> addressed before this work moves forward? If so which? >>>> > >>>> Regarding Section 4.4 I have already deferred the discussion to >>>> > >>>> the IESG. The TSV-ART review comment is that the IESG needs to >>>> > >>>> carefully look at the concepts, terminology, and references in >>>> > >>>> section >>>> 4.4. >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> Regarding my other comments, I acknowledge that -09 is a step >>>> > >>>> forward. But given the cross-dependencies e.g. regarding >>>> > >>>> terminology and definitions, I will need to read the text >>>> > >>>> completely once there is a proposal how to address my review. >>>> > >>>> As noted in my review, I believe the document must use >>>> > >>>> terminology >>>> clearly and consistently. >>>> > >>>> As example, a statement in -09 such as "Network nodes >>>> > >>>> supporting DetNet flows have to implement some of the DetNet >>>> > >>>> capabilities (not necessarily all) in order to treat DetNet >>>> > >>>> flows such that their QoS requirements are met" is IMHO too >>>> > >>>> vague. But in such cases it depends whether there is precise >>>> > >>>> normative guidance elsewhere. And this requires looking at the text >>>> as a whole. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> I think the next steps lie with me and the WG. We'll let you >>>> > >>> know once there is a new version. Of course, you can also >>>> > >>> contribute to the WG discussion on the topic. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> Thanks, >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> Lou >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> Best regards >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> Michael >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>>> Thank you, >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> Lou >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> On 9/28/2018 6:24 PM, Michael Scharf wrote: >>>> > >>>>>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf >>>> > >>>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" >>>> > >>>>>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall >>>> > >>>>>> framework for Deterministic Networking. >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues >>>> > >>>>>> as >>>> > >>>>> detailed below. >>>> > >>>>>> Michael >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> Major issues: >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> * It seems that DetNet cannot easily be deployed in the >>>> > >>>>>> Internet >>>> > >>>>> without >>>> > >>>>>> additional means. Thus, for a baseline document, one could >>>> > >>>>>> expect >>>> > >>>>> some >>>> > >>>>>> explanation on the requirements of deploying DetNet in a network. >>>> > >>>>> DetNet >>>> > >>>>>> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices >>>> > >>>>> transporting DetNet >>>> > >>>>>> traffic. That assumption should be explicitly spelt out early >>>> > >>>>>> in the >>>> > >>>>> document, >>>> > >>>>>> e.g., in the introduction. There also needs to be an explicit >>>> > >>>>> discussion of the >>>> > >>>>>> implications if not the whole network is aware of or supports >>>> > >>>>>> DetNet. >>>> > >>>>> There is >>>> > >>>>>> some text in Section 4.2.2 and Section 4.3.3, but I believe >>>> > >>>>> additional explicit >>>> > >>>>>> discussion is needed at a prominant place. For instance, can >>>> > >>>>>> use of >>>> > >>>>> DetNet do >>>> > >>>>>> harm to parts of a network not supporting DetNet? As a side >>>> > >>>>>> note, >>>> > >>>>> when TCPM >>>> > >>>>>> published RFC 8257, the following disclaimer was added: >>>> > >>>>>> "DCTCP, as >>>> > >>>>> described in >>>> > >>>>>> this specification, is applicable to deployments in >>>> > >>>>>> controlled >>>> > >>>>> environments >>>> > >>>>>> like data centers, but it must not be deployed over the >>>> > >>>>>> public >>>> > >>>>> Internet without >>>> > >>>>>> additional measures." I wonder if a similar disclaimer is >>>> > >>>>>> needed for >>>> > >>>>> DetNet. If >>>> > >>>>>> there is an implicit assumption that DetNet will be used in >>>> > >>>>> homogenous >>>> > >>>>>> environments with mostly DetNet-aware devices within the same >>>> > >>>>> organization, >>>> > >>>>>> such an assumption should be made explicit. >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on >>>> > >>>>>> network >>>> > >>>>> robustness >>>> > >>>>>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For >>>> > >>>>>> instance, misconfiguration or errors of functions performing >>>> > >>>>>> packet replication >>>> > >>>>> could >>>> > >>>>>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How >>>> > does >>>> > >>>>>> the >>>> > >>>>> DetNet >>>> > >>>>>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. >>>> > >>>>>> if >>>> > >>>>> the topology >>>> > >>>>>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be >>>> > solved >>>> > >>>>> by >>>> > >>>>>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are >>>> > >>>>> corresponding >>>> > >>>>>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that >>>> > >>>>>> filters and >>>> > >>>>> policers >>>> > >>>>>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still >>>> > >>>>>> assumes >>>> > >>>>> consistently >>>> > >>>>>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And >>>> > >>>>>> Section >>>> > >>>>> 3.3.2 is >>>> > >>>>>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" >>>> > >>>>>> without >>>> > >>>>> stating >>>> > >>>>>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further >>>> > solutions, >>>> > >>>>> such as >>>> > >>>>>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not discussed? >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of >>>> > >>>>>> failures >>>> > to >>>> > >>>>> the QoS of >>>> > >>>>>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to >>>> > >>>>>> protect >>>> > >>>>>> non- >>>> > >>>>> DetNet parts >>>> > >>>>>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. >>>> > Solutions to >>>> > >>>>> this >>>> > >>>>>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic >>>> > >>>>>> (e.g., in >>>> > >>>>> case of >>>> > >>>>>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not >>>> > >>>>>> discussed at >>>> > >>>>> all in the >>>> > >>>>>> document? >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> * Regarding security, an architecture like DetNet probably >>>> > >>>>>> requires >>>> > >>>>> that only >>>> > >>>>>> authenticated and authorized end systems have access to the >>>> > >>>>>> data >>>> > >>>>> plane. The >>>> > >>>>>> security considerations only briefly mention the control >>>> > >>>>>> aspect ("the authentication and authorization of the >>>> > >>>>>> controlling systems"). >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> * For an architecture document, the lack of clarity and >>>> > >>>>>> consistency >>>> > >>>>> regarding >>>> > >>>>>> terminology is concerning. This specifically applies to the >>>> > >>>>>> case of >>>> > >>>>> incomplete >>>> > >>>>>> networks (as per Section 4.2.2 and 4.3.3) that include >>>> > >>>>>> "DetNet- >>>> > >>>>> unaware nodes". >>>> > >>>>>> The document introduces terms such as "DetNet intermediate >>>> > nodes" >>>> > >>>>>> but >>>> > >>>>> then >>>> > >>>>>> repeatedly uses generic terms such as "node" or "hop" that >>>> > >>>>>> may >>>> > >>>>> include >>>> > >>>>>> DetNet-unaware nodes. For instance, for incomplete networks, >>>> > >>>>>> a >>>> > >>>>> sentence such as >>>> > >>>>>> "The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS >>>> > >>>>>> assurances is >>>> > to >>>> > >>>>> reduce, or >>>> > >>>>>> even completely eliminate, congestion within a node as a >>>> > >>>>>> cause of >>>> > >>>>> packet loss" >>>> > >>>>>> seems to only apply to "DetNet transit nodes" but not >>>> > >>>>>> "DetNet-unaware >>>> > >>>>> nodes". >>>> > >>>>>> Similar ambiguity exist for other use of the terms "hop" and >>>> > >>>>>> "node", >>>> > >>>>> which may >>>> > >>>>>> or may not include DetNet-unaware nodes. It is unclear why >>>> > >>>>>> the >>>> > >>>>> document does >>>> > >>>>>> not consistently use the terminology introduced in Section >>>> > >>>>>> 2.1 in all >>>> > >>>>> sections >>>> > >>>>>> and clearly distinguishes cases with and without DetNet support. >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational >>>> > >>>>>> RFC on >>>> > >>>>> IRTF stream, >>>> > >>>>>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., >>>> > >>>>>> "planes"). >>>> > >>>>> This is >>>> > >>>>>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should >>>> > >>>>>> probably >>>> > >>>>> refer to >>>> > >>>>>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC >>>> > >>>>>> 7491, albeit >>>> > >>>>> there is >>>> > >>>>>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, >>>> > >>>>>> Section >>>> > >>>>>> 4.4 >>>> > >>>>> is by and >>>> > >>>>>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not >>>> > >>>>>> specific to >>>> > >>>>> DetNet. >>>> > >>>>>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the >>>> > >>>>>> concepts >>>> > >>>>> introduced in >>>> > >>>>>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology >>>> > >>>>>> or >>>> > >>>>> discuss >>>> > >>>>>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly >>>> > >>>>>> at the >>>> > >>>>> end that >>>> > >>>>>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet architecture. >>>> > >>>>> It is not >>>> > >>>>>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 >>>> > >>>>>> could >>>> > >>>>> be removed >>>> > >>>>>> from the document without impacting the rest of the document. >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> Minor issues: >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in >>>> > >>>>>> the IETF, >>>> > >>>>> e.g. >>>> > >>>>>> originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. >>>> > >>>>>> "transport >>>> > >>>>> network" is >>>> > >>>>>> used in the IETF for different technologies in different >>>> > >>>>>> areas, I >>>> > >>>>> think the >>>> > >>>>>> term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer >>>> > >>>>>> to >>>> > >>>>> transport >>>> > >>>>>> protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find >>>> > >>>>>> the term >>>> > >>>>> "DetNet >>>> > >>>>>> transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion >>>> > >>>>>> is easy >>>> > >>>>> to see e.g. >>>> > >>>>>> in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as >>>> > >>>>>> per RFC >>>> > >>>>> 1122) sits >>>> > >>>>>> on top of "transport". >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> Based on the document it also may be >>>> > >>>>>> solution/implementation >>>> > >>>>> specific whether >>>> > >>>>>> the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate >>>> > >>>>>> protocol layer >>>> > >>>>> compared >>>> > >>>>>> to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me >>>> > >>>>>> why the >>>> > >>>>> word >>>> > >>>>>> "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination >>>> > >>>>>> "transport >>>> > >>>>> layer". >>>> > >>>>>> To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport >>>> > >>>>>> protocol") >>>> > >>>>> should be >>>> > >>>>>> used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with >>>> > >>>>>> RFC 1122. >>>> > >>>>> But this is >>>> > >>>>>> probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> * Page 9 >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> A DetNet node may have other resources requiring >>>> > >>>>>> allocation >>>> > >>>>> and/or >>>> > >>>>>> scheduling, >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> This is just one of several examples for inconsistent use >>>> > >>>>>> of >>>> > >>>>> terminology. >>>> > >>>>>> What is a "DetNet node"? That term is not introduced in >>>> > >>>>>> Section >>>> > >>>>> 2.1 >>>> > >>>>>> * Page 14 >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> A DetNet network supports the dedication of a high >>>> > >>>>>> proportion >>>> > >>>>> (e.g. >>>> > >>>>>> 75%) of the network bandwidth to DetNet flows. >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> The 75% value is not reasoned. What prevents using 99% of >>>> > >>>>>> the >>>> > >>>>> bandwidth for >>>> > >>>>>> DetNet traffic? >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> * Page 15: Figure 2 >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> If the term "transport layer" cannot be avoided, the >>>> > >>>>>> labels in >>>> > >>>>> this figure >>>> > >>>>>> should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport layer". >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> * Page 18: Figure 4 >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> As already mentioned earlier, Figure 4 is confusing. UDP >>>> > >>>>>> is a >>>> > >>>>> transport >>>> > >>>>>> protocol. If the term "transport" cannot be avoided, the >>>> > >>>>>> labels in >>>> > >>>>> this >>>> > >>>>>> figure should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport". >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> * Page 23 >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> If the source transmits less data than this limit >>>> > >>>>>> allows, the unused resource such as link bandwidth can >>>> > >>>>>> be made >>>> > >>>>>> available by the system to non-DetNet packets. >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> Could there be additional requirements on the use of >>>> > >>>>>> unused >>>> > >>>>> resources by >>>> > >>>>>> non-DetNet packets, e.g., regarding preemption? I am just >>>> > >>>>> wondering... If >>>> > >>>>>> that was possible, a statement like "... can be made >>>> > >>>>>> available by >>>> > >>>>> the system >>>> > >>>>>> to non-DetNet packets as long as all guarantees are fulfilled" >>>> > >>>>> would be on >>>> > >>>>>> the safe side, no? >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> * Page 27: >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> DetNet achieves congestion protection and bounded >>>> > >>>>>> delivery >>>> > >>>>> latency by >>>> > >>>>>> reserving bandwidth and buffer resources at every hop >>>> > >>>>>> along the >>>> > >>>>> path >>>> > >>>>>> of the DetNet flow. >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> Why does this sentence use the word "hop"? As far as I >>>> > >>>>>> understand, >>>> > >>>>> in DetNet >>>> > >>>>>> bandwidth and buffer resources are reserved in each >>>> > >>>>>> DetNet >>>> > >>>>> intermediate node. >>>> > >>>>>> If there were hops over IP routers not being DetNet >>>> > >>>>>> intermediate >>>> > >>>>> nodes, no >>>> > >>>>>> resources would be reserved there. As per Section 4.3.3, >>>> > >>>>>> it is >>>> > >>>>> possible to >>>> > >>>>>> deploy DetNet this way. And obviously there can be >>>> > >>>>>> resource >>>> > >>>>> bottlenecks below >>>> > >>>>>> IP, on devices that are not routers... So does "hop" here >>>> > >>>>>> refer to >>>> > >>>>> IP router >>>> > >>>>>> hops or also to devices not processing IP (or IP/MPLS)? >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> * Page 27: >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> Standard queuing and transmission selection algorithms >>>> > >>>>>> allow a >>>> > >>>>>> central controller to compute the latency contribution >>>> > >>>>>> of each >>>> > >>>>>> transit node to the end-to-end latency, ... >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> The text does not explain why a _central_ controller is >>>> > >>>>>> needed for >>>> > >>>>> this >>>> > >>>>>> computation. Why would a distributed control plane not be >>>> > >>>>>> able to >>>> > >>>>> realize >>>> > >>>>>> this computation. Isn't this implementation-specific? >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> * Page 32 >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> To somebody who is not deeply familiar with DetNet, it is >>>> > >>>>> impossible to parse >>>> > >>>>>> the description of the examples in Section 4.7.3. For >>>> > >>>>>> instance, >>>> > >>>>> "VID + >>>> > >>>>>> multicast MAC address" is not introduced. I think this >>>> > >>>>>> example >>>> > >>>>> must be >>>> > >>>>>> expaned with additional context and explanation to be >>>> > >>>>>> useful to >>>> > >>>>> readers. >>>> > >>>>>> * Page 34 >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> There are three classes of information that a central >>>> > >>>>>> controller >>>> > >>>>> or >>>> > >>>>>> distributed control plane needs to know that can only be >>>> > >>>>>> obtained >>>> > >>>>>> from the end systems and/or nodes in the network. >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> Wouldn't it be sufficient to state "Provisioning of >>>> > >>>>>> DetNet >>>> > >>>>> requires knowledge >>>> > >>>>>> about ...". Does it matter in this context whether the >>>> > >>>>> provisioning is done >>>> > >>>>>> by a central controller or a distributed control plane? >>>> > >>>>>> For >>>> > >>>>> instance, could >>>> > >>>>>> the same paragraph also apply to a network that uses >>>> > >>>>>> _multiple_ >>>> > >>>>> central >>>> > >>>>>> controllers, or hybrid combinations of central >>>> > >>>>>> controllers and >>>> > >>>>> distributed >>>> > >>>>>> control planes? In general, an architecture document >>>> > >>>>>> should be >>>> > >>>>> agnostic to >>>> > >>>>>> implementation aspects unless there is a specific need. >>>> > >>>>>> In this >>>> > >>>>> specific >>>> > >>>>>> case, I fail to see a need to discuss the realization of >>>> > >>>>>> the >>>> > >>>>> control plane of >>>> > >>>>>> a network. >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> Editorial nits: >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> * Page 9: >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 >>>> > >>>>>> provide the >>>> > >>>>>> necessary regulation of transmissions by an end system >>>> > >>>>>> or >>>> > >>>>>> intermediate node to provide congestion protection. The >>>> > >>>>> allocation >>>> > >>>>>> of the bandwidth and buffers for a DetNet flow requires >>>> > >>>>> provisioning >>>> > >>>>>> A DetNet node may have other resources requiring >>>> > >>>>>> allocation >>>> > >>>>> and/or >>>> > >>>>>> scheduling, that might otherwise be over-subscribed and >>>> > >>>>>> trigger >>>> > >>>>> the >>>> > >>>>>> rejection of a reservation. >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> Probably a full stop is missing after "provisioning". >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> * Page 11: "... along separate (disjoint non-SRLG) paths ..." >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> I find this confusing. I would understand e.g. "along >>>> > >>>>>> separate >>>> > >>>>>> (SRLG-disjoint) paths". >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> * Page 34: >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> When using a peer- >>>> > >>>>>> to-peer control plane, some of this information may be >>>> > >>>>>> required >>>> > >>>>> by a >>>> > >>>>>> system's neighbors in the network. >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> Would "acquired" be a better term? >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> * Page 34: >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> o The identity of the system's neighbors, and the >>>> > >>>>> characteristics of >>>> > >>>>>> the link(s) between the systems, including the length >>>> > >>>>>> (in >>>> > >>>>>> nanoseconds) of the link(s). >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> "Latency" or "delay" would probably be a better terms if >>>> > >>>>>> the value >>>> > >>>>> is >>>> > >>>>>> measured in nanoseconds. >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> * Page 35: >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as >>>> > >>>>>> such, does >>>> > >>>>> not >>>> > >>>>>> directly raise any new privacy considerations. >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> Broken sentence >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> * Please expand acronyms on first use (e.g., OTN) >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> > >>>> detnet mailing list >>>> > >>>> detnet@ietf.org >>>> > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>>> > >> >>>> > >> _______________________________________________ >>>> > >> detnet mailing list >>>> > >> detnet@ietf.org >>>> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > detnet mailing list >>>> > detnet@ietf.org >>>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> >> From nobody Tue Dec 11 07:30:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE801130DD6; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 07:30:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dedUHchPJsI4; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 07:30:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32c.google.com (mail-wm1-x32c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E2E4127333; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 07:30:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id g67so2708019wmd.2; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 07:30:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=ey7DqeBMPRuIWjzn6Mt6Wzlk3AhDPHwza9wiKByh/vw=; b=WLOj5N8zNTStdAaCuqXrmfaWlIEkhjVKhCWXoI6rPZCcDR0qBq/lZiGtN+ZDU6Wgwe uY6/s9dKqej35IyNIDs0sEIGDrhRP7yycVPzR3heT6FXAEB3KL/pm51nKlRyFrcMEe/Z 00Je8TIS079FZnKt6VWxLbT+xMaJVWMAmKC8D4/Oe6C9BgyxFN3ucFFlVZ0c7flUS5kJ aPHB/pMFzS3Uu4z2WJN2gT2A4wcKKv9nsP2TSbldSUHzW/zSneywR8qvPN5wgl8VDBw3 hPl3+vryWMWl0xAl9Sdxzlkyn/U2C/KPkfSB0qHdUwnUZyWas9Rh5E/NR9ZQxzqRGdcP vn5g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=ey7DqeBMPRuIWjzn6Mt6Wzlk3AhDPHwza9wiKByh/vw=; b=JsC3CCJPkO786195lRG+tSDl+Ac8Gw6GGZNiLeVJIQHCDOMeMiUquz4BapUuYagaJh Lj+srwMJr4qQVC6WF6781KR9UudYkDlHKuPglWIA/ccd+3GvpSLARADmV51UljYoNdu3 /dIYpJkbc+UucRP8VF/Je9f3+BhrJZZnLwM8jT+TjIqi76GbK5YbL0g3+OCP7W1tPKTb G8E5Ekpx1HxzHvhd9JntyaO4ZjlkoF5k2AjBFLI1THQdvgT2eA0m6khhOzy+p3CisGhU 6v41eDNuyAf9cunGKyBciYJ4zoultnV960YfHWQBkP8IXOYjjx/DjCsorabrUpDPp1ez 2AlA== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWarEnJqay6ip0aKXs+nIfNwqiSrsflTkAWdwfr4niYbK8rdtLDG SEosL4j0UVKvzXMRA9Y0mKk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/VlYWUgpsmCtSKkhTbwHDTpz5pzzSrwse8X/dk5uk9hUs36vJkTnZ4qpdAMvS5+r8s0k+0ewg== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:1550:: with SMTP id 77mr2941624wmv.100.1544542220892; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 07:30:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.198] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v8sm11136805wrq.53.2018.12.11.07.30.19 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 11 Dec 2018 07:30:20 -0800 (PST) To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= , "qiangli (D)" , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "S.V.R.Anand" Cc: Lou Berger , "Andrew G. Malis" , "Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de" , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" , Janos Farkas , "Grossman, Ethan A." , detnet WG , Loa Andersson References: <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <2086b964-4115-21b4-00d1-079f22d0a399@labn.net> <38afc693-1a98-50e4-907a-6cc5ec178ac6@ericsson.com> <2a2e33b4-74b3-4153-0db2-7a889551297f@pi.nu> <20181208070832.GG2815@iisc.ac.in> <16A460BE-9618-49EE-84B5-673BF1F01CB1@cisco.com> <06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2ADA6783@dggemi529-mbs.china.huawei.com> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <4d913b61-7e22-3bf2-964a-4325eac4b861@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 15:30:18 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 15:30:27 -0000 On 10/12/2018 06:32, Balázs Varga A wrote: > Hi, > > I am fine with "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer". > > Note: in order to match it somewhat better (i.e., considering the QoS aspects) > we can consider "DetNet Forwarding Adaptation sub-layer". > > Cheers > Bala'zs I have just read through the thread. Transport Network was the term that ITU taught us to use for this functionality when we did the MPLS-TP work and it describes the concept well. Detnet Forwarding layer works, although I am concerned that there will be other aspects of the layer that it will not describe well. It does after all need to be a complete layer control and OAM. An alternative to "Transport" that does not conflict with "Transport Layer" in the IETF sense is "Bearer". Regards Stewart > > -----Original Message----- > From: qiangli (D) > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 3:56 AM > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; S.V.R.Anand > Cc: detnet WG ; Andrew G. Malis ; Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; Janos Farkas ; Grossman, Ethan A. ; Lou Berger ; Loa Andersson > Subject: RE: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > > Hi All, > > Personally, I prefer for forwarding sub-layer for the reason -- "packet forwarding" describes how nodes forward packets after receiving the packets, including necessary de-/en-capsuslation, table lookup, of course queueing related operations and etc. > > Best regards, > > Cristina QIANG > > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2018 1:38 PM > To: S.V.R.Anand > Cc: detnet WG ; Andrew G. Malis ; Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de; draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org; János Farkas ; Grossman, Ethan A. ; Lou Berger ; Loa Andersson > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) > > Hello > > I’m fine with both with a preference for TE. It seems to me that we are extending classical forwarding in the TE and QoS spaces, so TE is more specific this better suited. > > Now, my hope is that we never spell it out. We have to find an acronym that is pronounceable and that acronym will leave no room to confusion if we never expand it. > > DTSL (transport) is too close from DTLS > DFSL is ok but tiresome > DTESL is a bit long, we may ignore the S either in spelling and or writing; note that old French has many S that went away e.g., forest is pronounced foray and modern spelling is forêt DTEL could be pronounced dee-tell quite easy. > > Think about how many times you will have to pronounce it and choose wisely! I vote “dee-tell” whether we have the S in the acronym or not... > > Regards, > > Pascal > >> Le 8 déc. 2018 à 08:08, S.V.R.Anand a écrit : >> >> Hi All, >> >> I feel Detnet Forwarding sub-layer is very close to capturing the >> functionality, but Forwarding still overloaded as observed by Lou. >> >> Given the wide range of mechanisms and lower layer services that this >> layer works with, I wonder if it makes sense to use a generic term >> "convergence" in the name. It is not uncommon to come across this term >> as part of a name in the context of a typical foo-layer.5. Just a >> thought. This said, I am still fine with Detnet Forwarding sub-layer. >> >> Regards >> Anand >> >> >> >>> On Sat, Dec 08, 2018 at 11:07:55AM +0800, Loa Andersson wrote: >>> Lou, et.al,. >>> >>>> On 2018-12-08 00:13, Lou Berger wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Focusing on the proposal: >>>> >>>>> In order to have another alternative on the table I propose >>>>> renaming "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer" >>>> This is a bit of a new usage for 'Forwarding' but not totally -- >>>> thinking about FIBs. My main reservation is that forwarding is >>>> usually considered separately from queuing, while this sub-layer >>>> embodies both. I do accept that TE usually considers both >>>> forwarding/steering and queuing, and that some assume that >>>> sophisticated queuing is required for TE -- which is actually >>>> service dependent. >>>> >>>> Even with this caveat and my personal preference for the 'TE' >>>> option, I (as contributor) can live with "DetNet Forwarding >>>> sub-layer". >>> Understanding that we want to pick good names, and that sometimes >>> this turns out to be "impossible". >>> >>> But after all a name is just a name. >>> >>> I can live with "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer". >>> >>> /Loa >>> >>>> Lou >>>> >>>>> On 12/7/2018 10:45 AM, János Farkas wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I have a similar concern with the change. It of course depends on >>>>> the definition of Traffic Engineering, but the term "DetNet TE sub-layer" >>>>> may imply to the reader that Traffic Engineering is a must even for >>>>> DetNet transit nodes. As far as I recall, the intention is to make >>>>> possible that DetNet transit nodes can be kept simple. Depending on >>>>> the actual DetNet service provided, DetNet transit nodes can be >>>>> actually simple. >>>>> >>>>> The idea behind the introduction of the two DetNet sub-layers was >>>>> to make it easier to tackle the problem. The lower layer provides >>>>> simpler packet forwarding related functions, the higher DetNet >>>>> Service sub-layer provides more complex DetNet service related functions. >>>>> >>>>> In order to have another alternative on the table I propose >>>>> renaming "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to "DetNet Forwarding sub-layer" >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> Janos >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 11/20/2018 10:10 PM, Lou Berger wrote: >>>>>>> On 11/20/2018 3:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >>>>>>> This terminology is certainly appropriate for TEAS. For DetNet, >>>>>>> this seems to make the assertion that the DetNet underlay is >>>>>>> always traffic-engineered, even if IPv4 or IPv6 (which is >>>>>>> certainly possible using TE extensions for the IGPs). >>>>>> This is certainly a fair point and one that does lead me to have a >>>>>> slight reservation about the change, that said, it seems the >>>>>> benefit out ways the downsides. >>>>>> >>>>>>> As long as people are OK with this assertion, then I'm OK with it >>>>>>> as well. That should be made clear in the architecture spec where >>>>>>> the term "DetNet TE sub-layer" is introduced/defined. >>>>>> agreed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Lou >>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:29 PM Grossman, Ethan A. >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I like it. >>>>>>> Ethan. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 10:27 AM >>>>>>> To: Lou Berger >; >>>>>>> Scharf, Michael >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; >>>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: RE: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] >>>>>>> Tsvart last call review of >>>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I support this change; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pascal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> > From: Lou Berger > >>>>>>> > Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 19:19 >>>>>>> > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>>>>> >; Scharf, Michael >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Cc: detnet@ietf.org ; >>>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Subject: Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: [Detnet] >>>>>>> Tsvart last >>>>>>> > call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > ALL, >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" >>>>>>> from the DetNet >>>>>>> > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport >>>>>>> protocols. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced >>>>>>> "Transport" >>>>>>> > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this >>>>>>> change? >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > To be clear, the suggestion is: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > OLD >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > . >>>>>>> > . >>>>>>> > +----------------------------+ >>>>>>> > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE >>>>>>> > +----------------------------+ >>>>>>> > | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, >>>>>>> MPLS SR >>>>>>> > +----------------------------+ >>>>>>> > . >>>>>>> > . >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > NEW >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > . >>>>>>> > . >>>>>>> > +----------------------------+ >>>>>>> > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE >>>>>>> > +----------------------------+ >>>>>>> > | DetNet TE sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, >>>>>>> MPLS SR >>>>>>> > +----------------------------+ >>>>>>> > . >>>>>>> > . >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Lou >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> detnet mailing list >>>>>> detnet@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> detnet mailing list >>>> detnet@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>> -- >>> >>> >>> Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu >>> Senior MPLS Expert >>> Bronze Dragon Consulting phone: +46 739 81 21 64 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Thu Dec 13 09:47:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79948130E04 for ; 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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 10:46:56 -0700 From: Lou Berger To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Scharf, Michael" Cc: "detnet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> Message-ID: <5164e2e0-f4ff-331c-11e0-deb080d1c520@labn.net> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:46:55 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.82.67 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gXV4a-00251H-GZ X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-82-67.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.82.67]:59910 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 3 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 17:47:03 -0000 Hi,     My reading is that the WG has settled on:      +----------------------------+      |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE      +----------------------------+      | DetNet Forwarding sub-layer| IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, MPLS SR      +----------------------------+                    .                    .                  Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane Authors, (of detnet-architecture)     Please work to have the next rev of the draft reflect this change. Thank you to all who participated in the discussion! Lou (as co-chair and doc shepherd) On 11/20/2018 1:18 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > ALL, > > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the DetNet > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport protocols. > > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced "Transport" > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". > > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this change? > > To be clear, the suggestion is: > > OLD > >                    . >                    . >      +----------------------------+ >      |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE >      +----------------------------+ >      | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, MPLS SR >      +----------------------------+ >                    . >                    . > >                  Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > NEW > >                    . >                    . >      +----------------------------+ >      |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE >      +----------------------------+ >      |      DetNet TE sub-layer   | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, MPLS SR >      +----------------------------+ >                    . >                    . > >                  Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > Lou > > On 11/20/2018 11:21 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: >> Hello Lou: >> >> >> About ' discuss changing the name of the "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to avoid the word "transport". ' >> >> For one I'd like to make that call. The unfortunate name collision has started to hurt us quite a bit already and people are getting confused on very active exchanges we have on the mailing list. >> >> I tend to agree that for the general IETF "transport" generally means "L4". Even point one in your email uses "transport" that way I guess. Sadly many alternate names are highly overloaded already (think "carrier" for instance, or "bus"). I like the term "train" because of the association with a schedule, but that's just me. >> >> Same goes actually for the complex path that we build. That complex path can be an elongated DODAG with multiple PREOF points. Usual terms like "circuit" or "path" fail to capture that complexity. 6TiSCH found the term "Track" to refer to it. >> >> Would you push that discussion to the ML? >> >> Take care, >> >> Pascal >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Lou Berger >>> Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 13:11 >>> To: Scharf, Michael >>> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet- >>> architecture.all@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 >>> >>> Michael, >>> >>> I think we're getting somewhere and identifying where we have disconnects >>> and what may (and what may not) need to change in the document.  My >>> takeaways are: >>> >>> - The document needs a good 'scrub' of the congestion related references to >>> ensure that the document only makes statements on what is actually done >>> within a DetNet and the relationship with transport protocols that use detnet >>> (which are in fact outside the scope of the DetNet WG).  I'll work with the >>> authors and WG on this -- I see this change as important, but editorial in >>> nature. >>> >>> - We have a perception issue with at least one member of the TSV area on the >>> meaning and more importantly, implication, of the term "DetNet >>> *Transport* sub-layer".  While I don't disagree that a good portion of the IETF >>> thinks transport protocol (UDP/TCP) when they hear "transport" >>> there are plenty others, particularly in the routing area, who understand that >>> "transport" can refer to Transport Networks.  And Transport Network is a well >>> understood general industry term. The IETF even has a bunch of RFCs that >>> relate to Transport networks.  This said, I think it reasonable to go back to the >>> DetNet WG and discuss changing the name of the "DetNet Transport sub- >>> layer"  to avoid the word "transport".  -- BTW we made a parallel change in >>> the TEAS WG when producing RFC8453. >>> >>> See below for detail response in-line. >>> >>> On 11/19/2018 5:15 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote: >>>> Lou, >>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> I wanted to take a step back from the multiple discussions that were >>>>> spawned by your review -- from a doc shepherd perspective, and see >>>>> where we are.   I know that the authors have sent a -09 version that >>>>> addresses some, but not all issues. >>>>> >>>>> From the exchanges I've seen, I think the key remaining issues are >>>>> related to: >>>>> >>>>> (a) possibly introduction of congestion in the general internet if >>>>> packets were somehow to escape a detnet domain.  The source of this >>>>> congestion would be inelastic traffic using DetNet or due to >>>>> congestion loss that is masked by PREOF. >>>> These are two major issues that need to be addressed. Note that it may not >>> be sufficient just to add a section on operational and deployment >>> considerations. Also the existing text in the document will need to get aligned >>> to normative guidance on how to avoid a congestion collapse. >>>> In -09, one example would be Section 3.1. "Primary goals defining the >>> DetNet QoS" >>>> Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along the path >>>> of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. Congestion >>>> protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, packet loss >>>> due to output packet congestion within the network, but it can only >>>> be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to a >>>> maximum packet size and transmission rate. Note that congestion >>>> protection provided via congestion detection and notification is >>>> explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it serves a >>>> different set of applications. >>>> At least the last sentence would contradict a better discussion of congestion >>> in the document. For instance, it could just be removed. In any case, the >>> current wording in the last sentence is not correct, as the IETF term for what is >>> described in the last sentence is "congestion control". >>>> Another example would be Section 3.2.1.1. "Eliminate congestion loss" >>>> >>>> The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS assurances is to >>>> reduce, or even completely eliminate, congestion within a DetNet node >>>> as a cause of packet loss. This can be achieved only by the >>>> provision of sufficient buffer storage at each node through the >>>> network to ensure that no packets are dropped due to a lack of buffer >>>> storage. Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled, i.e., its >>>> transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion >>>> notification. >>>> >>>> This section IMHO has to include a discussion of what happens in the (not >>> expected) case that packets get dropped or that ECN marks are received. It is >>> understood that this would not happen in normal operation of a DetNet >>> network, but I believe just considering the error-free operation of a DetNet >>> network is not sufficient for this document. At least for the risk of traffic that >>> may escape from a DetNet network is inherently not sufficient to assume that >>> the DetNet network is always error-free. >>> >>> I think these are examples of text that needs to be cleanup up and to >>> delineate what is done with a DetNet. >>> >>> >>>> As a result, addressing my concerns will most likely require editing several >>> parts of the document. >>>> In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review comment "It is surprising >>> that there is hardly any discussion on network robustness and safety" >>> >>> I have no idea what you mean by safety here.  Can you elaborate. >>> >>> >>>> covers more than just inelastic traffic that escapes from a DetNet network >>> and masking of packet loss. Given that DetNet traffic may be extremely critical >>> traffic, I really wonder why the document doesn't emphasize more the >>> required robustness against failures *inside* the DetNet network as well as >>> counter-measures. But this is something the WG needs to decide. As TSV-ART >>> reviewer, I will be fine if the document clearly describes how the impact of >>> failures will be isolated inside the DetNet network and will not put the general >>> Internet at risk. >>> >>> I agree - I think, the document should be clear on it's scope and >>> relationship to general internet usage. >>> >>> >>>>> (b) The use of the term 'transport' in DetNet to refer to what is >>>>> basically a Traffic Engineered sub-network layer, such as is provided >>>>> with MPLS-TE or Optical Transport Networks. >>>> In the Internet architecture, the term 'transport' refers to Internet transport >>> protocols. I doubt that the document can avoid discussing the implications of >>> and interactions with Internet transport protocols such as UDP or TCP. As a >>> result, I disagree that the document can use the term 'transport' to refer to >>> traffic engineered sub-network layers. >>> >>> I think this is covered by my comment above. >>> >>> >>>> From a TSV-ART point of view, the document can either only use the term >>> "transport" for Internet transport protocols and use another term for sub- >>> network layers (as handled in the *routing* area of the IETF), or the document >>> has to clearly distinguish between the Internet transport layer and other uses >>> of the term "transport" and explain the overlap. I believe the former would be >>> less confusing, but I will leave it up to the TSV ADs to discuss terminology >>> overlap in the IESG. As TSV-ART reviewer I insist that the document uses the >>> terms "transport layer" and "transport protocol" only when referring to the >>> Internet transport layer. >>> >>> I'm personally okay with a name change and even willing to push this >>> discussion within the WG, but as said above, "Transport Network" is a >>> generally understood industry term that is also used in RFCs -- so we'll >>> have to see what where WG consensus ends up. >>> >>>>> Do you have any other issues that that are critical to be addressed >>>>> before this work moves forward? If so which? >>>> Regarding Section 4.4 I have already deferred the discussion to the IESG. The >>> TSV-ART review comment is that the IESG needs to carefully look at the >>> concepts, terminology, and references in section 4.4. >>>> Regarding my other comments, I acknowledge that -09 is a step forward. But >>> given the cross-dependencies e.g. regarding terminology and definitions, I will >>> need to read the text completely once there is a proposal how to address my >>> review. As noted in my review, I believe the document must use terminology >>> clearly and consistently. As example, a statement in -09 such as "Network >>> nodes supporting DetNet flows have to implement some of the DetNet >>> capabilities (not necessarily all) in order to treat DetNet flows such that their >>> QoS requirements are met" is IMHO too vague. But in such cases it depends >>> whether there is precise normative guidance elsewhere. And this requires >>> looking at the text as a whole. >>> >>> I think the next steps lie with me and the WG.  We'll let you know once >>> there is a new version.  Of course, you can also contribute to the WG >>> discussion on the topic. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Lou >>> >>>> Best regards >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Thank you, >>>>> >>>>> Lou >>>>> >>>>> On 9/28/2018 6:24 PM, Michael Scharf wrote: >>>>>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf >>>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues >>>>>> >>>>>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" >>>>>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall framework for >>>>>> Deterministic Networking. >>>>>> >>>>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues as >>>>> detailed below. >>>>>> Michael >>>>>> >>>>>> Major issues: >>>>>> >>>>>> * It seems that DetNet cannot easily be deployed in the Internet >>>>> without >>>>>> additional means. Thus, for a baseline document, one could expect >>>>> some >>>>>> explanation on the requirements of deploying DetNet in a network. >>>>> DetNet >>>>>> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices >>>>> transporting DetNet >>>>>> traffic. That assumption should be explicitly spelt out early in the >>>>> document, >>>>>> e.g., in the introduction. There also needs to be an explicit >>>>> discussion of the >>>>>> implications if not the whole network is aware of or supports DetNet. >>>>> There is >>>>>> some text in Section 4.2.2 and Section 4.3.3, but I believe >>>>> additional explicit >>>>>> discussion is needed at a prominant place. For instance, can use of >>>>> DetNet do >>>>>> harm to parts of a network not supporting DetNet? As a side note, >>>>> when TCPM >>>>>> published RFC 8257, the following disclaimer was added: "DCTCP, as >>>>> described in >>>>>> this specification, is applicable to deployments in controlled >>>>> environments >>>>>> like data centers, but it must not be deployed over the public >>>>> Internet without >>>>>> additional measures." I wonder if a similar disclaimer is needed for >>>>> DetNet. If >>>>>> there is an implicit assumption that DetNet will be used in >>>>> homogenous >>>>>> environments with mostly DetNet-aware devices within the same >>>>> organization, >>>>>> such an assumption should be made explicit. >>>>>> >>>>>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network >>>>> robustness >>>>>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For instance, >>>>>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet replication >>>>> could >>>>>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How does the >>>>> DetNet >>>>>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. if >>>>> the topology >>>>>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be solved >>>>> by >>>>>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are >>>>> corresponding >>>>>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that filters and >>>>> policers >>>>>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still assumes >>>>> consistently >>>>>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And Section >>>>> 3.3.2 is >>>>>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" without >>>>> stating >>>>>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further solutions, >>>>> such as >>>>>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not discussed? >>>>>> >>>>>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of failures to >>>>> the QoS of >>>>>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to protect non- >>>>> DetNet parts >>>>>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. Solutions to >>>>> this >>>>>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic (e.g., in >>>>> case of >>>>>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not discussed at >>>>> all in the >>>>>> document? >>>>>> >>>>>> * Regarding security, an architecture like DetNet probably requires >>>>> that only >>>>>> authenticated and authorized end systems have access to the data >>>>> plane. The >>>>>> security considerations only briefly mention the control aspect ("the >>>>>> authentication and authorization of the controlling systems"). >>>>>> >>>>>> * For an architecture document, the lack of clarity and consistency >>>>> regarding >>>>>> terminology is concerning. This specifically applies to the case of >>>>> incomplete >>>>>> networks (as per Section 4.2.2 and 4.3.3) that include "DetNet- >>>>> unaware nodes". >>>>>> The document introduces terms such as "DetNet intermediate nodes" but >>>>> then >>>>>> repeatedly uses generic terms such as "node" or "hop" that may >>>>> include >>>>>> DetNet-unaware nodes. For instance, for incomplete networks, a >>>>> sentence such as >>>>>> "The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS assurances is to >>>>> reduce, or >>>>>> even completely eliminate, congestion within a node as a cause of >>>>> packet loss" >>>>>> seems to only apply to "DetNet transit nodes" but not "DetNet-unaware >>>>> nodes". >>>>>> Similar ambiguity exist for other use of the terms "hop" and "node", >>>>> which may >>>>>> or may not include DetNet-unaware nodes. It is unclear why the >>>>> document does >>>>>> not consistently use the terminology introduced in Section 2.1 in all >>>>> sections >>>>>> and clearly distinguishes cases with and without DetNet support. >>>>>> >>>>>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational RFC on >>>>> IRTF stream, >>>>>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., "planes"). >>>>> This is >>>>>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should probably >>>>> refer to >>>>>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC 7491, albeit >>>>> there is >>>>>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, Section 4.4 >>>>> is by and >>>>>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not specific to >>>>> DetNet. >>>>>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the concepts >>>>> introduced in >>>>>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology or >>>>> discuss >>>>>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly at the >>>>> end that >>>>>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet architecture. >>>>> It is not >>>>>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 could >>>>> be removed >>>>>> from the document without impacting the rest of the document. >>>>>> >>>>>> Minor issues: >>>>>> >>>>>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" >>>>>> >>>>>> The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in the IETF, >>>>> e.g. >>>>>> originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. "transport >>>>> network" is >>>>>> used in the IETF for different technologies in different areas, I >>>>> think the >>>>>> term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer to >>>>> transport >>>>>> protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find the term >>>>> "DetNet >>>>>> transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion is easy >>>>> to see e.g. >>>>>> in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as per RFC >>>>> 1122) sits >>>>>> on top of "transport". >>>>>> >>>>>> Based on the document it also may be solution/implementation >>>>> specific whether >>>>>> the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate protocol layer >>>>> compared >>>>>> to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me why the >>>>> word >>>>>> "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination "transport >>>>> layer". >>>>>> To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport protocol") >>>>> should be >>>>>> used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with RFC 1122. >>>>> But this is >>>>>> probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 9 >>>>>> >>>>>> A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation >>>>> and/or >>>>>> scheduling, >>>>>> >>>>>> This is just one of several examples for inconsistent use of >>>>> terminology. >>>>>> What is a "DetNet node"? That term is not introduced in Section >>>>> 2.1 >>>>>> * Page 14 >>>>>> >>>>>> A DetNet network supports the dedication of a high proportion >>>>> (e.g. >>>>>> 75%) of the network bandwidth to DetNet flows. >>>>>> >>>>>> The 75% value is not reasoned. What prevents using 99% of the >>>>> bandwidth for >>>>>> DetNet traffic? >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 15: Figure 2 >>>>>> >>>>>> If the term "transport layer" cannot be avoided, the labels in >>>>> this figure >>>>>> should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport layer". >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 18: Figure 4 >>>>>> >>>>>> As already mentioned earlier, Figure 4 is confusing. UDP is a >>>>> transport >>>>>> protocol. If the term "transport" cannot be avoided, the labels in >>>>> this >>>>>> figure should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport". >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 23 >>>>>> >>>>>> If the source transmits less data than this limit >>>>>> allows, the unused resource such as link bandwidth can be made >>>>>> available by the system to non-DetNet packets. >>>>>> >>>>>> Could there be additional requirements on the use of unused >>>>> resources by >>>>>> non-DetNet packets, e.g., regarding preemption? I am just >>>>> wondering... If >>>>>> that was possible, a statement like "... can be made available by >>>>> the system >>>>>> to non-DetNet packets as long as all guarantees are fulfilled" >>>>> would be on >>>>>> the safe side, no? >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 27: >>>>>> >>>>>> DetNet achieves congestion protection and bounded delivery >>>>> latency by >>>>>> reserving bandwidth and buffer resources at every hop along the >>>>> path >>>>>> of the DetNet flow. >>>>>> >>>>>> Why does this sentence use the word "hop"? As far as I understand, >>>>> in DetNet >>>>>> bandwidth and buffer resources are reserved in each DetNet >>>>> intermediate node. >>>>>> If there were hops over IP routers not being DetNet intermediate >>>>> nodes, no >>>>>> resources would be reserved there. As per Section 4.3.3, it is >>>>> possible to >>>>>> deploy DetNet this way. And obviously there can be resource >>>>> bottlenecks below >>>>>> IP, on devices that are not routers... So does "hop" here refer to >>>>> IP router >>>>>> hops or also to devices not processing IP (or IP/MPLS)? >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 27: >>>>>> >>>>>> Standard queuing and transmission selection algorithms allow a >>>>>> central controller to compute the latency contribution of each >>>>>> transit node to the end-to-end latency, ... >>>>>> >>>>>> The text does not explain why a _central_ controller is needed for >>>>> this >>>>>> computation. Why would a distributed control plane not be able to >>>>> realize >>>>>> this computation. Isn't this implementation-specific? >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 32 >>>>>> >>>>>> To somebody who is not deeply familiar with DetNet, it is >>>>> impossible to parse >>>>>> the description of the examples in Section 4.7.3. For instance, >>>>> "VID + >>>>>> multicast MAC address" is not introduced. I think this example >>>>> must be >>>>>> expaned with additional context and explanation to be useful to >>>>> readers. >>>>>> * Page 34 >>>>>> >>>>>> There are three classes of information that a central controller >>>>> or >>>>>> distributed control plane needs to know that can only be obtained >>>>>> from the end systems and/or nodes in the network. >>>>>> >>>>>> Wouldn't it be sufficient to state "Provisioning of DetNet >>>>> requires knowledge >>>>>> about ...". Does it matter in this context whether the >>>>> provisioning is done >>>>>> by a central controller or a distributed control plane? For >>>>> instance, could >>>>>> the same paragraph also apply to a network that uses _multiple_ >>>>> central >>>>>> controllers, or hybrid combinations of central controllers and >>>>> distributed >>>>>> control planes? In general, an architecture document should be >>>>> agnostic to >>>>>> implementation aspects unless there is a specific need. In this >>>>> specific >>>>>> case, I fail to see a need to discuss the realization of the >>>>> control plane of >>>>>> a network. >>>>>> >>>>>> Editorial nits: >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 9: >>>>>> >>>>>> The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 provide the >>>>>> necessary regulation of transmissions by an end system or >>>>>> intermediate node to provide congestion protection. The >>>>> allocation >>>>>> of the bandwidth and buffers for a DetNet flow requires >>>>> provisioning >>>>>> A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation >>>>> and/or >>>>>> scheduling, that might otherwise be over-subscribed and trigger >>>>> the >>>>>> rejection of a reservation. >>>>>> >>>>>> Probably a full stop is missing after "provisioning". >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 11: "... along separate (disjoint non-SRLG) paths ..." >>>>>> >>>>>> I find this confusing. I would understand e.g. "along separate >>>>>> (SRLG-disjoint) paths". >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 34: >>>>>> >>>>>> When using a peer- >>>>>> to-peer control plane, some of this information may be required >>>>> by a >>>>>> system's neighbors in the network. >>>>>> >>>>>> Would "acquired" be a better term? >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 34: >>>>>> >>>>>> o The identity of the system's neighbors, and the >>>>> characteristics of >>>>>> the link(s) between the systems, including the length (in >>>>>> nanoseconds) of the link(s). >>>>>> >>>>>> "Latency" or "delay" would probably be a better terms if the value >>>>> is >>>>>> measured in nanoseconds. >>>>>> >>>>>> * Page 35: >>>>>> >>>>>> DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does >>>>> not >>>>>> directly raise any new privacy considerations. >>>>>> >>>>>> Broken sentence >>>>>> >>>>>> * Please expand acronyms on first use (e.g., OTN) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> detnet mailing list >>>> detnet@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Thu Dec 13 10:17:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E01A3130E09; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 10:17:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kNSwTwMW_sHf; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 10:17:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x834.google.com (mail-qt1-x834.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::834]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08C741200B3; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 10:17:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x834.google.com with SMTP id d19so3198873qtq.9; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 10:17:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7S90TqPu39IeigvLJTflbDKRxP4ol1YV+KMy4cVlpwg=; b=Jbe6dn7skbEL4GP4lcOkF7piMtEOFOnkmELDvxLqSFzFytdpWocvtnkQjFGnGDYUHK FahXnFtcUlqKs49mwDLLztJa6QcFSGT9gYP6LSQkqRDLIcfSrpQoDEvPfzfYRwkP1gaf 6ofRlIqrCJ+AT8/bEWbM0V4qEILKgunK3t66uhizhWDGWPJ4sXQbVcO5aQ1kcalvSagj UmlguX1FZIrj+MMrH7Lnx1WxQlpWRJYYzw9T4gqJ8hzw/jVPXEbbXaY2fRreI8V7MwKS qoPaZ789wPQjdj5Yblzkf0nx+OoqkbbWDXCJvxWcWyhYKihlZewSPRX7ZrLw8xDObKbG VaiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7S90TqPu39IeigvLJTflbDKRxP4ol1YV+KMy4cVlpwg=; b=aImQSfB9oOHyxoSEoeIi3MjDUeiyWMoOx8mjYE+jq2MK1hqqwxhLM5pPBP1JVnLBm3 NkOrvdJ8Dg4KeD4u0cvBpTm4Jaidonqhsa9rHt0W02Aiz8WxPOpb+jROdQ2APAFYQkoQ G0llDy8OVv2e6DkKLekL13DDJIsoPzNuxG1gKqqgIMMvACTgOEs8mP0Ha0OPWwrOnK4m Nc0ZUgM2e7FpG4b//MW4RuRTWu1mNpQhq6KKeVUOFhMITDTvEBeYRvoYSQcC6+Haqril COPdKOi1dVQaSogDhimBHN+qSUzfGOmtuN8WWInfmczeNEhiGwMTDyeERthU4uOZFXBx Mwyg== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWbcnkeFkR7hM9s3rb0u7rhbu6AAhnvb8gJ9YA+IqCxlbViOBhCj jxm5XY57o7BcnbJqw/zKFTPOtOhc6H9s0+R3cBo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/V0cg6dVwNqhzdlbXhHnb0Bo+rZYRtQNhpGrwz+Ncm/SGVazaK91C68OY08Vc/Xqv/UTfqsahCC/z/AIoG6FpA= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:c192:: with SMTP id n18mr23221133qvh.99.1544725023926; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 10:17:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <5164e2e0-f4ff-331c-11e0-deb080d1c520@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <5164e2e0-f4ff-331c-11e0-deb080d1c520@labn.net> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 13:16:52 -0500 Message-ID: To: Lou Berger Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de, draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org, detnet WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000053ad23057ceb5205" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 18:17:10 -0000 --00000000000053ad23057ceb5205 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Lou, I think we've discussed this before, but I wanted to confirm whether SRv6 is in scope for the DetNet Forwarding sub-layer. Thanks, Andy On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 12:47 PM Lou Berger wrote: > Hi, > > My reading is that the WG has settled on: > > +----------------------------+ > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE > +----------------------------+ > | DetNet Forwarding sub-layer| IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, MPLS SR > +----------------------------+ > . > . > > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > Authors, (of detnet-architecture) > Please work to have the next rev of the draft reflect this change. > > Thank you to all who participated in the discussion! > Lou > (as co-chair and doc shepherd) > > On 11/20/2018 1:18 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > > ALL, > > > > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the DetNet > > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport protocols. > > > > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced "Transport" > > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". > > > > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this change? > > > > To be clear, the suggestion is: > > > > OLD > > > > . > > . > > +----------------------------+ > > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE > > +----------------------------+ > > | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, MPLS SR > > +----------------------------+ > > . > > . > > > > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > > > NEW > > > > . > > . > > +----------------------------+ > > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE > > +----------------------------+ > > | DetNet TE sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, MPLS SR > > +----------------------------+ > > . > > . > > > > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > > > Lou > > > > On 11/20/2018 11:21 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > >> Hello Lou: > >> > >> > >> About ' discuss changing the name of the "DetNet Transport sub-layer" > to avoid the word "transport". ' > >> > >> For one I'd like to make that call. The unfortunate name collision has > started to hurt us quite a bit already and people are getting confused on > very active exchanges we have on the mailing list. > >> > >> I tend to agree that for the general IETF "transport" generally means > "L4". Even point one in your email uses "transport" that way I guess. Sadly > many alternate names are highly overloaded already (think "carrier" for > instance, or "bus"). I like the term "train" because of the association > with a schedule, but that's just me. > >> > >> Same goes actually for the complex path that we build. That complex > path can be an elongated DODAG with multiple PREOF points. Usual terms like > "circuit" or "path" fail to capture that complexity. 6TiSCH found the term > "Track" to refer to it. > >> > >> Would you push that discussion to the ML? > >> > >> Take care, > >> > >> Pascal > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Lou Berger > >>> Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 13:11 > >>> To: Scharf, Michael > >>> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet- > >>> architecture.all@ietf.org > >>> Subject: Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of > draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 > >>> > >>> Michael, > >>> > >>> I think we're getting somewhere and identifying where we have > disconnects > >>> and what may (and what may not) need to change in the document. My > >>> takeaways are: > >>> > >>> - The document needs a good 'scrub' of the congestion related > references to > >>> ensure that the document only makes statements on what is actually done > >>> within a DetNet and the relationship with transport protocols that use > detnet > >>> (which are in fact outside the scope of the DetNet WG). I'll work > with the > >>> authors and WG on this -- I see this change as important, but > editorial in > >>> nature. > >>> > >>> - We have a perception issue with at least one member of the TSV area > on the > >>> meaning and more importantly, implication, of the term "DetNet > >>> *Transport* sub-layer". While I don't disagree that a good portion of > the IETF > >>> thinks transport protocol (UDP/TCP) when they hear "transport" > >>> there are plenty others, particularly in the routing area, who > understand that > >>> "transport" can refer to Transport Networks. And Transport Network is > a well > >>> understood general industry term. The IETF even has a bunch of RFCs > that > >>> relate to Transport networks. This said, I think it reasonable to go > back to the > >>> DetNet WG and discuss changing the name of the "DetNet Transport sub- > >>> layer" to avoid the word "transport". -- BTW we made a parallel > change in > >>> the TEAS WG when producing RFC8453. > >>> > >>> See below for detail response in-line. > >>> > >>> On 11/19/2018 5:15 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote: > >>>> Lou, > >>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> I wanted to take a step back from the multiple discussions that were > >>>>> spawned by your review -- from a doc shepherd perspective, and see > >>>>> where we are. I know that the authors have sent a -09 version that > >>>>> addresses some, but not all issues. > >>>>> > >>>>> From the exchanges I've seen, I think the key remaining issues > are > >>>>> related to: > >>>>> > >>>>> (a) possibly introduction of congestion in the general internet if > >>>>> packets were somehow to escape a detnet domain. The source of this > >>>>> congestion would be inelastic traffic using DetNet or due to > >>>>> congestion loss that is masked by PREOF. > >>>> These are two major issues that need to be addressed. Note that it > may not > >>> be sufficient just to add a section on operational and deployment > >>> considerations. Also the existing text in the document will need to > get aligned > >>> to normative guidance on how to avoid a congestion collapse. > >>>> In -09, one example would be Section 3.1. "Primary goals defining the > >>> DetNet QoS" > >>>> Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along > the path > >>>> of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. > Congestion > >>>> protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, packet > loss > >>>> due to output packet congestion within the network, but it can > only > >>>> be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to a > >>>> maximum packet size and transmission rate. Note that congestion > >>>> protection provided via congestion detection and notification is > >>>> explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it serves a > >>>> different set of applications. > >>>> At least the last sentence would contradict a better discussion of > congestion > >>> in the document. For instance, it could just be removed. In any case, > the > >>> current wording in the last sentence is not correct, as the IETF term > for what is > >>> described in the last sentence is "congestion control". > >>>> Another example would be Section 3.2.1.1. "Eliminate congestion loss" > >>>> > >>>> The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS assurances > is to > >>>> reduce, or even completely eliminate, congestion within a > DetNet node > >>>> as a cause of packet loss. This can be achieved only by the > >>>> provision of sufficient buffer storage at each node through the > >>>> network to ensure that no packets are dropped due to a lack of > buffer > >>>> storage. Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled, i.e., its > >>>> transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion > >>>> notification. > >>>> > >>>> This section IMHO has to include a discussion of what happens in the > (not > >>> expected) case that packets get dropped or that ECN marks are > received. It is > >>> understood that this would not happen in normal operation of a DetNet > >>> network, but I believe just considering the error-free operation of a > DetNet > >>> network is not sufficient for this document. At least for the risk of > traffic that > >>> may escape from a DetNet network is inherently not sufficient to > assume that > >>> the DetNet network is always error-free. > >>> > >>> I think these are examples of text that needs to be cleanup up and to > >>> delineate what is done with a DetNet. > >>> > >>> > >>>> As a result, addressing my concerns will most likely require editing > several > >>> parts of the document. > >>>> In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review comment "It is > surprising > >>> that there is hardly any discussion on network robustness and safety" > >>> > >>> I have no idea what you mean by safety here. Can you elaborate. > >>> > >>> > >>>> covers more than just inelastic traffic that escapes from a DetNet > network > >>> and masking of packet loss. Given that DetNet traffic may be extremely > critical > >>> traffic, I really wonder why the document doesn't emphasize more the > >>> required robustness against failures *inside* the DetNet network as > well as > >>> counter-measures. But this is something the WG needs to decide. As > TSV-ART > >>> reviewer, I will be fine if the document clearly describes how the > impact of > >>> failures will be isolated inside the DetNet network and will not put > the general > >>> Internet at risk. > >>> > >>> I agree - I think, the document should be clear on it's scope and > >>> relationship to general internet usage. > >>> > >>> > >>>>> (b) The use of the term 'transport' in DetNet to refer to what is > >>>>> basically a Traffic Engineered sub-network layer, such as is provided > >>>>> with MPLS-TE or Optical Transport Networks. > >>>> In the Internet architecture, the term 'transport' refers to Internet > transport > >>> protocols. I doubt that the document can avoid discussing the > implications of > >>> and interactions with Internet transport protocols such as UDP or TCP. > As a > >>> result, I disagree that the document can use the term 'transport' to > refer to > >>> traffic engineered sub-network layers. > >>> > >>> I think this is covered by my comment above. > >>> > >>> > >>>> From a TSV-ART point of view, the document can either only use the > term > >>> "transport" for Internet transport protocols and use another term for > sub- > >>> network layers (as handled in the *routing* area of the IETF), or the > document > >>> has to clearly distinguish between the Internet transport layer and > other uses > >>> of the term "transport" and explain the overlap. I believe the former > would be > >>> less confusing, but I will leave it up to the TSV ADs to discuss > terminology > >>> overlap in the IESG. As TSV-ART reviewer I insist that the document > uses the > >>> terms "transport layer" and "transport protocol" only when referring > to the > >>> Internet transport layer. > >>> > >>> I'm personally okay with a name change and even willing to push this > >>> discussion within the WG, but as said above, "Transport Network" is a > >>> generally understood industry term that is also used in RFCs -- so > we'll > >>> have to see what where WG consensus ends up. > >>> > >>>>> Do you have any other issues that that are critical to be addressed > >>>>> before this work moves forward? If so which? > >>>> Regarding Section 4.4 I have already deferred the discussion to the > IESG. The > >>> TSV-ART review comment is that the IESG needs to carefully look at the > >>> concepts, terminology, and references in section 4.4. > >>>> Regarding my other comments, I acknowledge that -09 is a step > forward. But > >>> given the cross-dependencies e.g. regarding terminology and > definitions, I will > >>> need to read the text completely once there is a proposal how to > address my > >>> review. As noted in my review, I believe the document must use > terminology > >>> clearly and consistently. As example, a statement in -09 such as > "Network > >>> nodes supporting DetNet flows have to implement some of the DetNet > >>> capabilities (not necessarily all) in order to treat DetNet flows such > that their > >>> QoS requirements are met" is IMHO too vague. But in such cases it > depends > >>> whether there is precise normative guidance elsewhere. And this > requires > >>> looking at the text as a whole. > >>> > >>> I think the next steps lie with me and the WG. We'll let you know once > >>> there is a new version. Of course, you can also contribute to the WG > >>> discussion on the topic. > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> Lou > >>> > >>>> Best regards > >>>> > >>>> Michael > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Thank you, > >>>>> > >>>>> Lou > >>>>> > >>>>> On 9/28/2018 6:24 PM, Michael Scharf wrote: > >>>>>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf > >>>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" > >>>>>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall framework for > >>>>>> Deterministic Networking. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues as > >>>>> detailed below. > >>>>>> Michael > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Major issues: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * It seems that DetNet cannot easily be deployed in the Internet > >>>>> without > >>>>>> additional means. Thus, for a baseline document, one could expect > >>>>> some > >>>>>> explanation on the requirements of deploying DetNet in a network. > >>>>> DetNet > >>>>>> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices > >>>>> transporting DetNet > >>>>>> traffic. That assumption should be explicitly spelt out early in the > >>>>> document, > >>>>>> e.g., in the introduction. There also needs to be an explicit > >>>>> discussion of the > >>>>>> implications if not the whole network is aware of or supports > DetNet. > >>>>> There is > >>>>>> some text in Section 4.2.2 and Section 4.3.3, but I believe > >>>>> additional explicit > >>>>>> discussion is needed at a prominant place. For instance, can use of > >>>>> DetNet do > >>>>>> harm to parts of a network not supporting DetNet? As a side note, > >>>>> when TCPM > >>>>>> published RFC 8257, the following disclaimer was added: "DCTCP, as > >>>>> described in > >>>>>> this specification, is applicable to deployments in controlled > >>>>> environments > >>>>>> like data centers, but it must not be deployed over the public > >>>>> Internet without > >>>>>> additional measures." I wonder if a similar disclaimer is needed for > >>>>> DetNet. If > >>>>>> there is an implicit assumption that DetNet will be used in > >>>>> homogenous > >>>>>> environments with mostly DetNet-aware devices within the same > >>>>> organization, > >>>>>> such an assumption should be made explicit. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network > >>>>> robustness > >>>>>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For instance, > >>>>>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet > replication > >>>>> could > >>>>>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How does > the > >>>>> DetNet > >>>>>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. if > >>>>> the topology > >>>>>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be solved > >>>>> by > >>>>>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are > >>>>> corresponding > >>>>>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that filters > and > >>>>> policers > >>>>>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still assumes > >>>>> consistently > >>>>>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And Section > >>>>> 3.3.2 is > >>>>>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" without > >>>>> stating > >>>>>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further solutions, > >>>>> such as > >>>>>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not discussed? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of failures to > >>>>> the QoS of > >>>>>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to protect non- > >>>>> DetNet parts > >>>>>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. Solutions to > >>>>> this > >>>>>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic (e.g., > in > >>>>> case of > >>>>>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not discussed at > >>>>> all in the > >>>>>> document? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Regarding security, an architecture like DetNet probably requires > >>>>> that only > >>>>>> authenticated and authorized end systems have access to the data > >>>>> plane. The > >>>>>> security considerations only briefly mention the control aspect > ("the > >>>>>> authentication and authorization of the controlling systems"). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * For an architecture document, the lack of clarity and consistency > >>>>> regarding > >>>>>> terminology is concerning. This specifically applies to the case of > >>>>> incomplete > >>>>>> networks (as per Section 4.2.2 and 4.3.3) that include "DetNet- > >>>>> unaware nodes". > >>>>>> The document introduces terms such as "DetNet intermediate nodes" > but > >>>>> then > >>>>>> repeatedly uses generic terms such as "node" or "hop" that may > >>>>> include > >>>>>> DetNet-unaware nodes. For instance, for incomplete networks, a > >>>>> sentence such as > >>>>>> "The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS assurances is to > >>>>> reduce, or > >>>>>> even completely eliminate, congestion within a node as a cause of > >>>>> packet loss" > >>>>>> seems to only apply to "DetNet transit nodes" but not > "DetNet-unaware > >>>>> nodes". > >>>>>> Similar ambiguity exist for other use of the terms "hop" and "node", > >>>>> which may > >>>>>> or may not include DetNet-unaware nodes. It is unclear why the > >>>>> document does > >>>>>> not consistently use the terminology introduced in Section 2.1 in > all > >>>>> sections > >>>>>> and clearly distinguishes cases with and without DetNet support. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational RFC on > >>>>> IRTF stream, > >>>>>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., > "planes"). > >>>>> This is > >>>>>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should probably > >>>>> refer to > >>>>>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC 7491, > albeit > >>>>> there is > >>>>>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, Section > 4.4 > >>>>> is by and > >>>>>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not specific to > >>>>> DetNet. > >>>>>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the concepts > >>>>> introduced in > >>>>>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology or > >>>>> discuss > >>>>>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly at the > >>>>> end that > >>>>>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet architecture. > >>>>> It is not > >>>>>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 could > >>>>> be removed > >>>>>> from the document without impacting the rest of the document. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Minor issues: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in the > IETF, > >>>>> e.g. > >>>>>> originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. > "transport > >>>>> network" is > >>>>>> used in the IETF for different technologies in different > areas, I > >>>>> think the > >>>>>> term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer to > >>>>> transport > >>>>>> protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find the > term > >>>>> "DetNet > >>>>>> transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion is > easy > >>>>> to see e.g. > >>>>>> in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as per > RFC > >>>>> 1122) sits > >>>>>> on top of "transport". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Based on the document it also may be solution/implementation > >>>>> specific whether > >>>>>> the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate protocol > layer > >>>>> compared > >>>>>> to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me why > the > >>>>> word > >>>>>> "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination "transport > >>>>> layer". > >>>>>> To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport > protocol") > >>>>> should be > >>>>>> used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with RFC > 1122. > >>>>> But this is > >>>>>> probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 9 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation > >>>>> and/or > >>>>>> scheduling, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This is just one of several examples for inconsistent use of > >>>>> terminology. > >>>>>> What is a "DetNet node"? That term is not introduced in > Section > >>>>> 2.1 > >>>>>> * Page 14 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> A DetNet network supports the dedication of a high proportion > >>>>> (e.g. > >>>>>> 75%) of the network bandwidth to DetNet flows. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The 75% value is not reasoned. What prevents using 99% of the > >>>>> bandwidth for > >>>>>> DetNet traffic? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 15: Figure 2 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If the term "transport layer" cannot be avoided, the labels in > >>>>> this figure > >>>>>> should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport layer". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 18: Figure 4 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As already mentioned earlier, Figure 4 is confusing. UDP is a > >>>>> transport > >>>>>> protocol. If the term "transport" cannot be avoided, the > labels in > >>>>> this > >>>>>> figure should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 23 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If the source transmits less data than this limit > >>>>>> allows, the unused resource such as link bandwidth can be > made > >>>>>> available by the system to non-DetNet packets. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Could there be additional requirements on the use of unused > >>>>> resources by > >>>>>> non-DetNet packets, e.g., regarding preemption? I am just > >>>>> wondering... If > >>>>>> that was possible, a statement like "... can be made > available by > >>>>> the system > >>>>>> to non-DetNet packets as long as all guarantees are fulfilled" > >>>>> would be on > >>>>>> the safe side, no? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 27: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> DetNet achieves congestion protection and bounded delivery > >>>>> latency by > >>>>>> reserving bandwidth and buffer resources at every hop along > the > >>>>> path > >>>>>> of the DetNet flow. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Why does this sentence use the word "hop"? As far as I > understand, > >>>>> in DetNet > >>>>>> bandwidth and buffer resources are reserved in each DetNet > >>>>> intermediate node. > >>>>>> If there were hops over IP routers not being DetNet > intermediate > >>>>> nodes, no > >>>>>> resources would be reserved there. As per Section 4.3.3, it is > >>>>> possible to > >>>>>> deploy DetNet this way. And obviously there can be resource > >>>>> bottlenecks below > >>>>>> IP, on devices that are not routers... So does "hop" here > refer to > >>>>> IP router > >>>>>> hops or also to devices not processing IP (or IP/MPLS)? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 27: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Standard queuing and transmission selection algorithms allow > a > >>>>>> central controller to compute the latency contribution of > each > >>>>>> transit node to the end-to-end latency, ... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The text does not explain why a _central_ controller is > needed for > >>>>> this > >>>>>> computation. Why would a distributed control plane not be > able to > >>>>> realize > >>>>>> this computation. Isn't this implementation-specific? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 32 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> To somebody who is not deeply familiar with DetNet, it is > >>>>> impossible to parse > >>>>>> the description of the examples in Section 4.7.3. For > instance, > >>>>> "VID + > >>>>>> multicast MAC address" is not introduced. I think this example > >>>>> must be > >>>>>> expaned with additional context and explanation to be useful > to > >>>>> readers. > >>>>>> * Page 34 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> There are three classes of information that a central > controller > >>>>> or > >>>>>> distributed control plane needs to know that can only be > obtained > >>>>>> from the end systems and/or nodes in the network. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Wouldn't it be sufficient to state "Provisioning of DetNet > >>>>> requires knowledge > >>>>>> about ...". Does it matter in this context whether the > >>>>> provisioning is done > >>>>>> by a central controller or a distributed control plane? For > >>>>> instance, could > >>>>>> the same paragraph also apply to a network that uses > _multiple_ > >>>>> central > >>>>>> controllers, or hybrid combinations of central controllers and > >>>>> distributed > >>>>>> control planes? In general, an architecture document should be > >>>>> agnostic to > >>>>>> implementation aspects unless there is a specific need. In > this > >>>>> specific > >>>>>> case, I fail to see a need to discuss the realization of the > >>>>> control plane of > >>>>>> a network. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Editorial nits: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 9: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 provide the > >>>>>> necessary regulation of transmissions by an end system or > >>>>>> intermediate node to provide congestion protection. The > >>>>> allocation > >>>>>> of the bandwidth and buffers for a DetNet flow requires > >>>>> provisioning > >>>>>> A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation > >>>>> and/or > >>>>>> scheduling, that might otherwise be over-subscribed and > trigger > >>>>> the > >>>>>> rejection of a reservation. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Probably a full stop is missing after "provisioning". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 11: "... along separate (disjoint non-SRLG) paths ..." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I find this confusing. I would understand e.g. "along separate > >>>>>> (SRLG-disjoint) paths". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 34: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> When using a peer- > >>>>>> to-peer control plane, some of this information may be > required > >>>>> by a > >>>>>> system's neighbors in the network. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Would "acquired" be a better term? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 34: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> o The identity of the system's neighbors, and the > >>>>> characteristics of > >>>>>> the link(s) between the systems, including the length (in > >>>>>> nanoseconds) of the link(s). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "Latency" or "delay" would probably be a better terms if the > value > >>>>> is > >>>>>> measured in nanoseconds. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 35: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, > does > >>>>> not > >>>>>> directly raise any new privacy considerations. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Broken sentence > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Please expand acronyms on first use (e.g., OTN) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> detnet mailing list > >>>> detnet@ietf.org > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --00000000000053ad23057ceb5205 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lou,

I think we've discussed this b= efore, but I wanted to confirm whether SRv6 is in scope for the DetNet Forw= arding sub-layer.

Thanks,
Andy


On Thu, De= c 13, 2018 at 12:47 PM Lou Berger <l= berger@labn.net> wrote:
Hi,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 My reading is that the WG has settled on:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +----------------------------+
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 DetNet Service sub-layer=C2=A0 | PW= , UDP, GRE
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +----------------------------+
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | DetNet Forwarding sub-layer| IPv6, IPv4, = MPLS TE LSPs, MPLS SR
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +----------------------------+
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .

=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane
Authors, (of detnet-architecture)
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Please work to have the next rev of the draft refl= ect this change.

Thank you to all who participated in the discussion!
Lou
(as co-chair and doc shepherd)

On 11/20/2018 1:18 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
> ALL,
>
> There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the D= etNet
> Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport protocols. >
> In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced "Trans= port"
> with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ".
>
> While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this change?
>
> To be clear, the suggestion is:
>
> OLD
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +----------------------------+ >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 DetNet Service sub-layer= =C2=A0 | PW, UDP, GRE
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +----------------------------+ >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IP= v6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, MPLS SR
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +----------------------------+ >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data= plane
>
> NEW
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +----------------------------+ >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 DetNet Service sub-layer= =C2=A0 | PW, UDP, GRE
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +----------------------------+ >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 D= etNet TE sub-layer =C2=A0 | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, MPLS SR
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +----------------------------+ >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data= plane
>
> Lou
>
> On 11/20/2018 11:21 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
>> Hello Lou:
>>
>>
>> About ' discuss changing the name of the "DetNet Transpor= t sub-layer"=C2=A0 to avoid the word "transport".=C2=A0 '= ;
>>
>> For one I'd like to make that call. The unfortunate name colli= sion has started to hurt us quite a bit already and people are getting conf= used on very active exchanges we have on the mailing list.
>>
>> I tend to agree that for the general IETF "transport" ge= nerally means "L4". Even point one in your email uses "trans= port" that way I guess. Sadly many alternate names are highly overload= ed already (think "carrier" for instance, or "bus"). I = like the term "train" because of the association with a schedule,= but that's just me.
>>
>> Same goes actually for the complex path that we build. That comple= x path can be an elongated DODAG with multiple PREOF points. Usual terms li= ke "circuit" or "path" fail to capture that complexity.= 6TiSCH found the term "Track" to refer to it.
>>
>> Would you push that discussion to the ML?
>>
>> Take care,
>>
>> Pascal
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
>>> Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 13:11
>>> To: Scharf, Michael <Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de>
>>> Cc: tsv-= art@ietf.org; detn= et@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet-
>>> architecture.all@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-de= tnet-architecture-08
>>>
>>> Michael,
>>>
>>> I think we're getting somewhere and identifying where we h= ave disconnects
>>> and what may (and what may not) need to change in the document= .=C2=A0 My
>>> takeaways are:
>>>
>>> - The document needs a good 'scrub' of the congestion = related references to
>>> ensure that the document only makes statements on what is actu= ally done
>>> within a DetNet and the relationship with transport protocols = that use detnet
>>> (which are in fact outside the scope of the DetNet WG).=C2=A0 = I'll work with the
>>> authors and WG on this -- I see this change as important, but = editorial in
>>> nature.
>>>
>>> - We have a perception issue with at least one member of the T= SV area on the
>>> meaning and more importantly, implication, of the term "D= etNet
>>> *Transport* sub-layer".=C2=A0 While I don't disagree = that a good portion of the IETF
>>> thinks transport protocol (UDP/TCP) when they hear "trans= port"
>>> there are plenty others, particularly in the routing area, who= understand that
>>> "transport" can refer to Transport Networks.=C2=A0 A= nd Transport Network is a well
>>> understood general industry term. The IETF even has a bunch of= RFCs that
>>> relate to Transport networks.=C2=A0 This said, I think it reas= onable to go back to the
>>> DetNet WG and discuss changing the name of the "DetNet Tr= ansport sub-
>>> layer"=C2=A0 to avoid the word "transport".=C2= =A0 -- BTW we made a parallel change in
>>> the TEAS WG when producing RFC8453.
>>>
>>> See below for detail response in-line.
>>>
>>> On 11/19/2018 5:15 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote:
>>>> Lou,
>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> I wanted to take a step back from the multiple discuss= ions that were
>>>>> spawned by your review -- from a doc shepherd perspect= ive, and see
>>>>> where we are.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I know that the authors have= sent a -09 version that
>>>>> addresses some, but not all issues.
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From the exchanges I've seen, I= think the key remaining issues are
>>>>> related to:
>>>>>
>>>>> (a) possibly introduction of congestion in the general= internet if
>>>>> packets were somehow to escape a detnet domain.=C2=A0 = The source of this
>>>>> congestion would be inelastic traffic using DetNet or = due to
>>>>> congestion loss that is masked by PREOF.
>>>> These are two major issues that need to be addressed. Note= that it may not
>>> be sufficient just to add a section on operational and deploym= ent
>>> considerations. Also the existing text in the document will ne= ed to get aligned
>>> to normative guidance on how to avoid a congestion collapse. >>>> In -09, one example would be Section 3.1. "Primary go= als defining the
>>> DetNet QoS"
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Congestion protection operates b= y allocating resources along the path
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer s= pace or link bandwidth.=C2=A0 Congestion
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0protection greatly reduces, or e= ven eliminates entirely, packet loss
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0due to output packet congestion = within the network, but it can only
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be supplied to a DetNet flow tha= t is limited at the source to a
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0maximum packet size and transmis= sion rate.=C2=A0 Note that congestion
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0protection provided via congesti= on detection and notification is
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0explicitly excluded from conside= ration in DetNet, as it serves a
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0different set of applications. >>>> At least the last sentence would contradict a better discu= ssion of congestion
>>> in the document. For instance, it could just be removed. In an= y case, the
>>> current wording in the last sentence is not correct, as the IE= TF term for what is
>>> described in the last sentence is "congestion control&quo= t;.
>>>> Another example would be=C2=A0 Section 3.2.1.1. "Elim= inate congestion loss"
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The primary means by which DetNe= t achieves its QoS assurances is to
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reduce, or even completely elimi= nate, congestion within a DetNet node
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as a cause of packet loss.=C2=A0= This can be achieved only by the
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0provision of sufficient buffer s= torage at each node through the
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network to ensure that no packet= s are dropped due to a lack of buffer
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0storage.=C2=A0 Note that a DetNe= t flow cannot be throttled, i.e., its
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transmission rate cannot be redu= ced via explicit congestion
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0notification.
>>>>
>>>> This section IMHO has to include a discussion of what happ= ens in the (not
>>> expected) case that packets get dropped or that ECN marks are = received. It is
>>> understood that this would not happen in normal operation of a= DetNet
>>> network, but I believe just considering the error-free operati= on of a DetNet
>>> network is not sufficient for this document. At least for the = risk of traffic that
>>> may escape from a DetNet network is inherently not sufficient = to assume that
>>> the DetNet network is always error-free.
>>>
>>> I think these are examples of text that needs to be cleanup up= and to
>>> delineate what is done with a DetNet.
>>>
>>>
>>>> As a result, addressing my concerns will most likely requi= re editing several
>>> parts of the document.
>>>> In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review comm= ent "It is surprising
>>> that there is hardly any discussion on network robustness and = safety"
>>>
>>> I have no idea what you mean by safety here.=C2=A0 Can you ela= borate.
>>>
>>>
>>>> covers more than just inelastic traffic that escapes from = a DetNet network
>>> and masking of packet loss. Given that DetNet traffic may be e= xtremely critical
>>> traffic, I really wonder why the document doesn't emphasiz= e more the
>>> required robustness against failures *inside* the DetNet netwo= rk as well as
>>> counter-measures. But this is something the WG needs to decide= . As TSV-ART
>>> reviewer, I will be fine if the document clearly describes how= the impact of
>>> failures will be isolated inside the DetNet network and will n= ot put the general
>>> Internet at risk.
>>>
>>> I agree - I think, the document should be clear on it's sc= ope and
>>> relationship to general internet usage.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> (b) The use of the term 'transport' in DetNet = to refer to what is
>>>>> basically a Traffic Engineered sub-network layer, such= as is provided
>>>>> with MPLS-TE or Optical Transport Networks.
>>>> In the Internet architecture, the term 'transport'= refers to Internet transport
>>> protocols. I doubt that the document can avoid discussing the = implications of
>>> and interactions with Internet transport protocols such as UDP= or TCP. As a
>>> result, I disagree that the document can use the term 'tra= nsport' to refer to
>>> traffic engineered sub-network layers.
>>>
>>> I think this is covered by my comment above.
>>>
>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 From a TSV-ART point of view, the document ca= n either only use the term
>>> "transport" for Internet transport protocols and use= another term for sub-
>>> network layers (as handled in the *routing* area of the IETF),= or the document
>>> has to clearly distinguish between the Internet transport laye= r and other uses
>>> of the term "transport" and explain the overlap. I b= elieve the former would be
>>> less confusing, but I will leave it up to the TSV ADs to discu= ss terminology
>>> overlap in the IESG. As TSV-ART reviewer I insist that the doc= ument uses the
>>> terms "transport layer" and "transport protocol= " only when referring to the
>>> Internet transport layer.
>>>
>>> I'm personally okay with a name change and even willing to= push this
>>> discussion within the WG, but as said above, "Transport N= etwork" is a
>>> generally understood industry term that is also used in RFCs -= - so we'll
>>> have to see what where WG consensus ends up.
>>>
>>>>> Do you have any other issues that that are critical to= be addressed
>>>>> before this work moves forward?=C2=A0 If so which?
>>>> Regarding Section 4.4 I have already deferred the discussi= on to the IESG. The
>>> TSV-ART review comment is that the IESG needs to carefully loo= k at the
>>> concepts, terminology, and references in section 4.4.
>>>> Regarding my other comments, I acknowledge that -09 is a s= tep forward. But
>>> given the cross-dependencies e.g. regarding terminology and de= finitions, I will
>>> need to read the text completely once there is a proposal how = to address my
>>> review. As noted in my review, I believe the document must use= terminology
>>> clearly and consistently. As example, a statement in -09 such = as "Network
>>> nodes supporting DetNet flows have to implement some of the De= tNet
>>> capabilities (not necessarily all) in order to treat DetNet fl= ows such that their
>>> QoS requirements are met" is IMHO too vague. But in such = cases it depends
>>> whether there is precise normative guidance elsewhere. And thi= s requires
>>> looking at the text as a whole.
>>>
>>> I think the next steps lie with me and the WG.=C2=A0 We'll= let you know once
>>> there is a new version.=C2=A0 Of course, you can also contribu= te to the WG
>>> discussion on the topic.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>>>> Best regards
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9/28/2018 6:24 PM, Michael Scharf wrote:
>>>>>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf
>>>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The document "Deterministic Networking Archit= ecture"
>>>>>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an ove= rall framework for
>>>>>> Deterministic Networking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document = has issues as
>>>>> detailed below.
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Major issues:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * It seems that DetNet cannot easily be deployed i= n the Internet
>>>>> without
>>>>>> additional means. Thus, for a baseline document, o= ne could expect
>>>>> some
>>>>>> explanation on the requirements of deploying DetNe= t in a network.
>>>>> DetNet
>>>>>> basically requires support in (almost) all network= devices
>>>>> transporting DetNet
>>>>>> traffic. That assumption should be explicitly spel= t out early in the
>>>>> document,
>>>>>> e.g., in the introduction. There also needs to be = an explicit
>>>>> discussion of the
>>>>>> implications if not the whole network is aware of = or supports DetNet.
>>>>> There is
>>>>>> some text in Section 4.2.2 and Section 4.3.3, but = I believe
>>>>> additional explicit
>>>>>> discussion is needed at a prominant place. For ins= tance, can use of
>>>>> DetNet do
>>>>>> harm to parts of a network not supporting DetNet? = As a side note,
>>>>> when TCPM
>>>>>> published RFC 8257, the following disclaimer was a= dded: "DCTCP, as
>>>>> described in
>>>>>> this specification, is applicable to deployments i= n controlled
>>>>> environments
>>>>>> like data centers, but it must not be deployed ove= r the public
>>>>> Internet without
>>>>>> additional measures." I wonder if a similar d= isclaimer is needed for
>>>>> DetNet. If
>>>>>> there is an implicit assumption that DetNet will= =C2=A0 be used in
>>>>> homogenous
>>>>>> environments with mostly DetNet-aware devices with= in the same
>>>>> organization,
>>>>>> such an assumption should be made explicit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discus= sion on network
>>>>> robustness
>>>>>> and safety; this probably also relates to security= . For instance,
>>>>>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing= packet replication
>>>>> could
>>>>>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause= harm. How does the
>>>>> DetNet
>>>>>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully ope= rational e.g. if
>>>>> the topology
>>>>>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably = this can be solved
>>>>> by
>>>>>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but= why are
>>>>> corresponding
>>>>>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculat= es that filters and
>>>>> policers
>>>>>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably = still assumes
>>>>> consistently
>>>>>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devic= es. And Section
>>>>> 3.3.2 is
>>>>>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of pos= sible failures" without
>>>>> stating
>>>>>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be = further solutions,
>>>>> such as
>>>>>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics= not discussed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at imp= act of failures to
>>>>> the QoS of
>>>>>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion ho= w to protect non-
>>>>> DetNet parts
>>>>>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechan= isms. Solutions to
>>>>> this
>>>>>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNe= t traffic (e.g., in
>>>>> case of
>>>>>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) = not discussed at
>>>>> all in the
>>>>>> document?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Regarding security, an architecture like DetNet = probably requires
>>>>> that only
>>>>>> authenticated and authorized end systems have acce= ss to the data
>>>>> plane. The
>>>>>> security considerations only briefly mention the c= ontrol aspect ("the
>>>>>> authentication and authorization of the controllin= g systems").
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * For an architecture document, the lack of clarit= y and consistency
>>>>> regarding
>>>>>> terminology is concerning. This specifically appli= es to the case of
>>>>> incomplete
>>>>>> networks (as per Section 4.2.2 and 4.3.3) that inc= lude "DetNet-
>>>>> unaware nodes".
>>>>>> The document introduces terms such as "DetNet= intermediate nodes" but
>>>>> then
>>>>>> repeatedly uses generic terms such as "node&q= uot; or "hop" that may
>>>>> include
>>>>>> DetNet-unaware nodes. For instance, for incomplete= networks, a
>>>>> sentence such as
>>>>>> "The primary means by which DetNet achieves i= ts QoS assurances is to
>>>>> reduce, or
>>>>>> even completely eliminate, congestion within a nod= e as a cause of
>>>>> packet loss"
>>>>>> seems to only apply to "DetNet transit nodes&= quot; but not "DetNet-unaware
>>>>> nodes".
>>>>>> Similar ambiguity exist for other use of the terms= "hop" and "node",
>>>>> which may
>>>>>> or may not include DetNet-unaware nodes. It is unc= lear why the
>>>>> document does
>>>>>> not consistently use the terminology introduced in= Section 2.1 in all
>>>>> sections
>>>>>> and clearly distinguishes cases with and without D= etNet support.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an info= rmational RFC on
>>>>> IRTF stream,
>>>>>> and the document uses the concepts introduced ther= e (e.g., "planes").
>>>>> This is
>>>>>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard s= hould probably
>>>>> refer to
>>>>>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would = be RFC 7491, albeit
>>>>> there is
>>>>>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. = Second, Section 4.4
>>>>> is by and
>>>>>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and = not specific to
>>>>> DetNet.
>>>>>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to= the concepts
>>>>> introduced in
>>>>>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet t= erminology or
>>>>> discuss
>>>>>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions= explicitly at the
>>>>> end that
>>>>>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the De= tNet architecture.
>>>>> It is not
>>>>>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. = Section 4.4 could
>>>>> be removed
>>>>>> from the document without impacting the rest of th= e document.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Minor issues:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" >>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The term "transport= layer" has a well-defined meaning in the IETF,
>>>>> e.g.
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0originating from RFC 112= 2. While "transport" and e.g. "transport
>>>>> network" is
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0used in the IETF for dif= ferent technologies in different areas, I
>>>>> think the
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0term "transport lay= er" is typically understood to refer to
>>>>> transport
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0protocols such as TCP an= d UDP. As such, I personally find the term
>>>>> "DetNet
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transport layer" mi= sleading and confusing. The confusion is easy
>>>>> to see e.g.
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in Figure 4, where UDP (= which is a transport protocol as per RFC
>>>>> 1122) sits
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on top of "transpor= t".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Based on the document it= also may be solution/implementation
>>>>> specific whether
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the "DetNet transpo= rt layer" is actually a separate protocol layer
>>>>> compared
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to the "DetNet serv= ice layer". Thus it is not clear to me why the
>>>>> word
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"layer" has to= be used, specifically in combination "transport
>>>>> layer".
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To me as, the word "= ;transport layer" (and "transport protocol")
>>>>> should be
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0used for protocols defin= ed in TSV area, consistent with RFC 1122.
>>>>> But this is
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0probably a question to b= e sorted out by the IESG.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Page 9
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A DetNet node may have = other resources requiring allocation
>>>>> and/or
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 scheduling,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This is just one of seve= ral examples for inconsistent use of
>>>>> terminology.
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What is a "DetNet n= ode"? That term is not introduced in Section
>>>>> 2.1
>>>>>> * Page 14
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A DetNet network suppor= ts the dedication of a high proportion
>>>>> (e.g.
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 75%) of the network ban= dwidth to DetNet flows.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The 75% value is not rea= soned. What prevents using 99% of the
>>>>> bandwidth for
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0DetNet traffic?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Page 15: Figure 2
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If the term "transp= ort layer" cannot be avoided, the labels in
>>>>> this figure
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should at least be expan= ded to "DetNet transport layer".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Page 18: Figure 4
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As already mentioned ear= lier, Figure 4 is confusing. UDP is a
>>>>> transport
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol. If the term &q= uot;transport" cannot be avoided, the labels in
>>>>> this
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0figure should at least b= e expanded to "DetNet transport".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Page 23
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 If the source transmits= less data than this limit
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 allows, the unused reso= urce such as link bandwidth can be made
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 available by the system= to non-DetNet packets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Could there be additiona= l requirements on the use of unused
>>>>> resources by
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0non-DetNet packets, e.g.= , regarding preemption? I am just
>>>>> wondering... If
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that was possible, a sta= tement like "... can be made available by
>>>>> the system
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to non-DetNet packets as= long as all guarantees are fulfilled"
>>>>> would be on
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the safe side, no?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Page 27:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 DetNet achieves congest= ion protection and bounded delivery
>>>>> latency by
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 reserving bandwidth and= buffer resources at every hop along the
>>>>> path
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the DetNet flow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Why does this sentence u= se the word "hop"? As far as I understand,
>>>>> in DetNet
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bandwidth and buffer res= ources are reserved in each DetNet
>>>>> intermediate node.
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If there were hops over = IP routers not being DetNet intermediate
>>>>> nodes, no
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0resources would be reser= ved there. As per Section 4.3.3, it is
>>>>> possible to
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0deploy DetNet this way. = And obviously there can be resource
>>>>> bottlenecks below
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IP, on devices that are = not routers... So does "hop" here refer to
>>>>> IP router
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hops or also to devices = not processing IP (or IP/MPLS)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Page 27:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Standard queuing and tr= ansmission selection algorithms allow a
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 central controller to c= ompute the latency contribution of each
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transit node to the end= -to-end latency, ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The text does not explai= n why a _central_ controller is needed for
>>>>> this
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0computation. Why would a= distributed control plane not be able to
>>>>> realize
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this computation. Isn= 9;t this implementation-specific?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Page 32
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To somebody who is not d= eeply familiar with DetNet, it is
>>>>> impossible to parse
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the description of the e= xamples in Section 4.7.3. For instance,
>>>>> "VID +
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0multicast MAC address&qu= ot; is not introduced. I think this example
>>>>> must be
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0expaned with additional = context and explanation to be useful to
>>>>> readers.
>>>>>> * Page 34
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 There are three classes= of information that a central controller
>>>>> or
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 distributed control pla= ne needs to know that can only be obtained
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 from the end systems an= d/or nodes in the network.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Wouldn't it be suffi= cient to state "Provisioning of DetNet
>>>>> requires knowledge
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0about ...". Does it= matter in this context whether the
>>>>> provisioning is done
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0by a central controller = or a distributed control plane? For
>>>>> instance, could
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the same paragraph also = apply to a network that uses _multiple_
>>>>> central
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0controllers, or hybrid c= ombinations of central controllers and
>>>>> distributed
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0control planes? In gener= al, an architecture document should be
>>>>> agnostic to
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementation aspects u= nless there is a specific need. In this
>>>>> specific
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0case, I fail to see a ne= ed to discuss the realization of the
>>>>> control plane of
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a network.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Editorial nits:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Page 9:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The low-level mechanism= s described in Section 4.5 provide the
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 necessary regulation of= transmissions by an end system or
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 intermediate node to pr= ovide congestion protection.=C2=A0 The
>>>>> allocation
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the bandwidth and bu= ffers for a DetNet flow requires
>>>>> provisioning
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A DetNet node may have = other resources requiring allocation
>>>>> and/or
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 scheduling, that might = otherwise be over-subscribed and trigger
>>>>> the
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 rejection of a reservat= ion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Probably a full stop is = missing after "provisioning".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Page 11: "... along separate (disjoint non-= SRLG) paths ..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I find this confusing. I= would understand e.g. "along separate
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(SRLG-disjoint) paths&qu= ot;.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Page 34:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 When using a peer-
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to-peer control plane, = some of this information may be required
>>>>> by a
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 system's neighbors = in the network.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Would "acquired&quo= t; be a better term?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Page 34:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 The identity of= the system's neighbors, and the
>>>>> characteristics of
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the link(s= ) between the systems, including the length (in
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0nanosecond= s) of the link(s).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Latency" or &= quot;delay" would probably be a better terms if the value
>>>>> is
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0measured in nanoseconds.=
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Page 35:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 DetNet is provides a Qu= ality of Service (QoS), and as such, does
>>>>> not
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 directly raise any new = privacy considerations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Broken sentence
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Please expand acronyms on first use (e.g., OTN)<= br> >>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> detnet mailing list
>>>> detne= t@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/d= etnet

_______________________________________________
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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 11:07:43 -0700 To: =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= , "Scharf, Michael" Cc: "detnet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <090ae5ba-e44c-f8fa-7259-5ab1b01fb23c@ericsson.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 13:07:39 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <090ae5ba-e44c-f8fa-7259-5ab1b01fb23c@ericsson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.82.67 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gXVOh-002DZ5-Fh X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-82-67.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.82.67]:33454 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 3 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 18:23:09 -0000 All,     I met with the authors of detnet-architecture to see if we could come up with a a single proposal.  The discussion led to three candidates (see below for ordered list).  In the interest of closing on this topic, I'd like to ask if there are *objections* to changing the term "Congestion protection" to "Resource allocation".  Looking at the related, first use, text in Section 3.2.1 this change would read something like:    Three techniques are used by DetNet to provide these qualities of    service:    o  Resource allocation (Section 3.2.1).    o  Service protection (Section 3.2.2).    o  Explicit routes (Section 3.2.3).    Resource allocation operates by assigning resources, e.g., buffer    space or link bandwidth, to a DetNet flow (or flow aggregate) along    its path.  Resource allocation greatly reduces, or even eliminates    entirely, packet loss due to output packet contention within the    network, but it can only be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited    at the source to a maximum packet size and transmission rate. Note    that congestion control provided via congestion detection and    notification [RFC3168] is explicitly excluded from consideration in    DetNet, as it serves a different set of applications.    Resource allocation addresses two of the DetNet QoS requirements:    latency and packet loss.  Given that DetNet nodes have a finite    amount of buffer space, Resource allocation necessarily results in    a maximum end-to-end latency.  It also addresses contention related    packet loss.    Other important contribution to packet loss are random media errors    and equipment failures... Please respond, if you think this change (to 'resource allocation') is:     (a) acceptable/something you can live with     (b) unacceptable/something you think should not be part of the DetNet architecture (Note: please wait for the author to revise the actual text above based on the outcome of this thread before providing edits.) Thank you, Lou (as co-chair and shepherd) The top three alternatives at the end of the meeting, in order were:     1. Resource allocation     2. Resource management     3. Contention management On 12/10/2018 9:29 AM, János Farkas wrote: > Hi, > > As I understand, there is confusion around two DetNet terms. > We are removing "transport". > > The other one is "congestion" and "congestion protection". > > Brief description of congestion protection in Section 3.1: > >    Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along the path >    of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. Congestion >    protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, packet loss >    due to output packet congestion within the network, but it can only >    be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to a >    maximum packet size and transmission rate.  Note that congestion >    protection provided via congestion detection and notification is >    explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it serves a >    different set of applications. > >    Congestion protection addresses two of the DetNet QoS requirements: >    latency and packet loss.  Given that DetNet nodes have a finite >    amount of buffer space, congestion protection necessarily results in >    a maximum end-to-end latency.  It also addresses the largest >    contribution to packet loss, which is buffer congestion. > > Detailed description is in Section 3.2.1. > > We wanted to have a brief collective term for the mechanisms used to > avoid queuing related packet loss (including buffer overflow etc.). > > Based on the discussions, we should have a term that does not include > "congestion". > ("Service Protection" is another DetNet term, hence we may consider a > term without "protection" to minimize confusion.) > > I suggest to replace "congestion protection" with "queuing loss avoidance". > > After agreeing in the terminology cahnge (if any), the text has to be > updated accordingly. > > What do you think? > > Best regards, > Janos > > > On 11/20/2018 1:11 PM, Lou Berger wrote: >> Michael, >> >> I think we're getting somewhere and identifying where we have >> disconnects and what may (and what may not) need to change in the >> document.  My takeaways are: >> >> - The document needs a good 'scrub' of the congestion related >> references to ensure that the document only makes statements on what >> is actually done within a DetNet and the relationship with transport >> protocols that use detnet (which are in fact outside the scope of the >> DetNet WG).  I'll work with the authors and WG on this -- I see this >> change as important, but editorial in nature. >> >> - We have a perception issue with at least one member of the TSV area >> on the meaning and more importantly, implication, of the term "DetNet >> *Transport* sub-layer".  While I don't disagree that a good portion of >> the IETF thinks transport protocol (UDP/TCP) when they hear >> "transport" there are plenty others, particularly in the routing area, >> who understand that "transport" can refer to Transport Networks.  And >> Transport Network is a well understood general industry term. The IETF >> even has a bunch of RFCs that relate to Transport networks.  This >> said, I think it reasonable to go back to the DetNet WG and discuss >> changing the name of the "DetNet Transport sub-layer"  to avoid the >> word "transport".  -- BTW we made a parallel change in the TEAS WG >> when producing RFC8453. >> >> See below for detail response in-line. >> >> On 11/19/2018 5:15 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote: >>> Lou, >>> >>>> -- >>>> I wanted to take a step back from the multiple discussions that were >>>> spawned by your review -- from a doc shepherd perspective, and see >>>> where >>>> we are.   I know that the authors have sent a -09 version that >>>> addresses >>>> some, but not all issues. >>>> >>>>   From the exchanges I've seen, I think the key remaining issues are >>>> related to: >>>> >>>> (a) possibly introduction of congestion in the general internet if >>>> packets were somehow to escape a detnet domain.  The source of this >>>> congestion would be inelastic traffic using DetNet or due to congestion >>>> loss that is masked by PREOF. >>> These are two major issues that need to be addressed. Note that it >>> may not be sufficient just to add a section on operational and >>> deployment considerations. Also the existing text in the document >>> will need to get aligned to normative guidance on how to avoid a >>> congestion collapse. >>> >>> In -09, one example would be Section 3.1. "Primary goals defining the >>> DetNet QoS" >>> >>>     Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along the >>> path >>>     of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. Congestion >>>     protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, packet loss >>>     due to output packet congestion within the network, but it can only >>>     be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to a >>>     maximum packet size and transmission rate.  Note that congestion >>>     protection provided via congestion detection and notification is >>>     explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it serves a >>>     different set of applications. >>> At least the last sentence would contradict a better discussion of >>> congestion in the document. For instance, it could just be removed. >>> In any case, the current wording in the last sentence is not correct, >>> as the IETF term for what is described in the last sentence is >>> "congestion control". >>> >>> Another example would be  Section 3.2.1.1. "Eliminate congestion loss" >>>       The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS assurances >>> is to >>>     reduce, or even completely eliminate, congestion within a DetNet >>> node >>>     as a cause of packet loss.  This can be achieved only by the >>>     provision of sufficient buffer storage at each node through the >>>     network to ensure that no packets are dropped due to a lack of >>> buffer >>>     storage.  Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled, i.e., its >>>     transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion >>>     notification. >>> >>> This section IMHO has to include a discussion of what happens in the >>> (not expected) case that packets get dropped or that ECN marks are >>> received. It is understood that this would not happen in normal >>> operation of a DetNet network, but I believe just considering the >>> error-free operation of a DetNet network is not sufficient for this >>> document. At least for the risk of traffic that may escape from a >>> DetNet network is inherently not sufficient to assume that the DetNet >>> network is always error-free. >> I think these are examples of text that needs to be cleanup up and to >> delineate what is done with a DetNet. >> >> >>> As a result, addressing my concerns will most likely require editing >>> several parts of the document. >>> >>> In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review comment "It is >>> surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network robustness >>> and safety" >> I have no idea what you mean by safety here.  Can you elaborate. >> >> >>> covers more than just inelastic traffic that escapes from a DetNet >>> network and masking of packet loss. Given that DetNet traffic may be >>> extremely critical traffic, I really wonder why the document doesn't >>> emphasize more the required robustness against failures *inside* the >>> DetNet network as well as counter-measures. But this is something the >>> WG needs to decide. As TSV-ART reviewer, I will be fine if the >>> document clearly describes how the impact of failures will be >>> isolated inside the DetNet network and will not put the general >>> Internet at risk. >> I agree - I think, the document should be clear on it's scope and >> relationship to general internet usage. >> >> >>>> (b) The use of the term 'transport' in DetNet to refer to what is >>>> basically a Traffic Engineered sub-network layer, such as is provided >>>> with MPLS-TE or Optical Transport Networks. >>> In the Internet architecture, the term 'transport' refers to Internet >>> transport protocols. I doubt that the document can avoid discussing >>> the implications of and interactions with Internet transport >>> protocols such as UDP or TCP. As a result, I disagree that the >>> document can use the term 'transport' to refer to traffic engineered >>> sub-network layers. >> I think this is covered by my comment above. >> >> >>>  From a TSV-ART point of view, the document can either only use the >>> term "transport" for Internet transport protocols and use another >>> term for sub-network layers (as handled in the *routing* area of the >>> IETF), or the document has to clearly distinguish between the >>> Internet transport layer and other uses of the term "transport" and >>> explain the overlap. I believe the former would be less confusing, >>> but I will leave it up to the TSV ADs to discuss terminology overlap >>> in the IESG. As TSV-ART reviewer I insist that the document uses the >>> terms "transport layer" and "transport protocol" only when referring >>> to the Internet transport layer. >> I'm personally okay with a name change and even willing to push this >> discussion within the WG, but as said above, "Transport Network" is a >> generally understood industry term that is also used in RFCs -- so >> we'll have to see what where WG consensus ends up. >> >>>> Do you have any other issues that that are critical to be addressed >>>> before this work moves forward?  If so which? >>> Regarding Section 4.4 I have already deferred the discussion to the >>> IESG. The TSV-ART review comment is that the IESG needs to carefully >>> look at the concepts, terminology, and references in section 4.4. >>> >>> Regarding my other comments, I acknowledge that -09 is a step >>> forward. But given the cross-dependencies e.g. regarding terminology >>> and definitions, I will need to read the text completely once there >>> is a proposal how to address my review. As noted in my review, I >>> believe the document must use terminology clearly and consistently. >>> As example, a statement in -09 such as "Network nodes supporting >>> DetNet flows have to implement some of the DetNet capabilities (not >>> necessarily all) in order to treat DetNet flows such that their QoS >>> requirements are met" is IMHO too vague. But in such cases it depends >>> whether there is precise normative guidance elsewhere. And this >>> requires looking at the text as a whole. >> I think the next steps lie with me and the WG.  We'll let you know >> once there is a new version.  Of course, you can also contribute to >> the WG discussion on the topic. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Lou >> >>> Best regards >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> Lou >>>> >>>> On 9/28/2018 6:24 PM, Michael Scharf wrote: >>>>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf >>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues >>>>> >>>>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" >>>>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall framework for >>>>> Deterministic Networking. >>>>> >>>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues as >>>> detailed below. >>>>> Michael >>>>> >>>>> Major issues: >>>>> >>>>> * It seems that DetNet cannot easily be deployed in the Internet >>>> without >>>>> additional means. Thus, for a baseline document, one could expect >>>> some >>>>> explanation on the requirements of deploying DetNet in a network. >>>> DetNet >>>>> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices >>>> transporting DetNet >>>>> traffic. That assumption should be explicitly spelt out early in the >>>> document, >>>>> e.g., in the introduction. There also needs to be an explicit >>>> discussion of the >>>>> implications if not the whole network is aware of or supports DetNet. >>>> There is >>>>> some text in Section 4.2.2 and Section 4.3.3, but I believe >>>> additional explicit >>>>> discussion is needed at a prominant place. For instance, can use of >>>> DetNet do >>>>> harm to parts of a network not supporting DetNet? As a side note, >>>> when TCPM >>>>> published RFC 8257, the following disclaimer was added: "DCTCP, as >>>> described in >>>>> this specification, is applicable to deployments in controlled >>>> environments >>>>> like data centers, but it must not be deployed over the public >>>> Internet without >>>>> additional measures." I wonder if a similar disclaimer is needed for >>>> DetNet. If >>>>> there is an implicit assumption that DetNet will  be used in >>>> homogenous >>>>> environments with mostly DetNet-aware devices within the same >>>> organization, >>>>> such an assumption should be made explicit. >>>>> >>>>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network >>>> robustness >>>>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For instance, >>>>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet replication >>>> could >>>>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How does the >>>> DetNet >>>>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. if >>>> the topology >>>>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be solved >>>> by >>>>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are >>>> corresponding >>>>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that filters and >>>> policers >>>>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still assumes >>>> consistently >>>>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And Section >>>> 3.3.2 is >>>>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" without >>>> stating >>>>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further solutions, >>>> such as >>>>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not discussed? >>>>> >>>>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of failures to >>>> the QoS of >>>>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to protect non- >>>> DetNet parts >>>>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. Solutions to >>>> this >>>>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic (e.g., in >>>> case of >>>>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not discussed at >>>> all in the >>>>> document? >>>>> >>>>> * Regarding security, an architecture like DetNet probably requires >>>> that only >>>>> authenticated and authorized end systems have access to the data >>>> plane. The >>>>> security considerations only briefly mention the control aspect ("the >>>>> authentication and authorization of the controlling systems"). >>>>> >>>>> * For an architecture document, the lack of clarity and consistency >>>> regarding >>>>> terminology is concerning. This specifically applies to the case of >>>> incomplete >>>>> networks (as per Section 4.2.2 and 4.3.3) that include "DetNet- >>>> unaware nodes". >>>>> The document introduces terms such as "DetNet intermediate nodes" but >>>> then >>>>> repeatedly uses generic terms such as "node" or "hop" that may >>>> include >>>>> DetNet-unaware nodes. For instance, for incomplete networks, a >>>> sentence such as >>>>> "The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS assurances is to >>>> reduce, or >>>>> even completely eliminate, congestion within a node as a cause of >>>> packet loss" >>>>> seems to only apply to "DetNet transit nodes" but not "DetNet-unaware >>>> nodes". >>>>> Similar ambiguity exist for other use of the terms "hop" and "node", >>>> which may >>>>> or may not include DetNet-unaware nodes. It is unclear why the >>>> document does >>>>> not consistently use the terminology introduced in Section 2.1 in all >>>> sections >>>>> and clearly distinguishes cases with and without DetNet support. >>>>> >>>>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational RFC on >>>> IRTF stream, >>>>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., "planes"). >>>> This is >>>>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should probably >>>> refer to >>>>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC 7491, albeit >>>> there is >>>>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, Section 4.4 >>>> is by and >>>>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not specific to >>>> DetNet. >>>>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the concepts >>>> introduced in >>>>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology or >>>> discuss >>>>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly at the >>>> end that >>>>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet architecture. >>>> It is not >>>>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 could >>>> be removed >>>>> from the document without impacting the rest of the document. >>>>> >>>>> Minor issues: >>>>> >>>>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" >>>>> >>>>>     The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in the IETF, >>>> e.g. >>>>>     originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. "transport >>>> network" is >>>>>     used in the IETF for different technologies in different areas, I >>>> think the >>>>>     term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer to >>>> transport >>>>>     protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find the term >>>> "DetNet >>>>>     transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion is easy >>>> to see e.g. >>>>>     in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as per RFC >>>> 1122) sits >>>>>     on top of "transport". >>>>> >>>>>     Based on the document it also may be solution/implementation >>>> specific whether >>>>>     the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate protocol layer >>>> compared >>>>>     to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me why the >>>> word >>>>>     "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination "transport >>>> layer". >>>>>     To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport protocol") >>>> should be >>>>>     used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with RFC 1122. >>>> But this is >>>>>     probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. >>>>> >>>>> * Page 9 >>>>> >>>>>      A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation >>>> and/or >>>>>      scheduling, >>>>> >>>>>     This is just one of several examples for inconsistent use of >>>> terminology. >>>>>     What is a "DetNet node"? That term is not introduced in Section >>>> 2.1 >>>>> * Page 14 >>>>> >>>>>      A DetNet network supports the dedication of a high proportion >>>> (e.g. >>>>>      75%) of the network bandwidth to DetNet flows. >>>>> >>>>>     The 75% value is not reasoned. What prevents using 99% of the >>>> bandwidth for >>>>>     DetNet traffic? >>>>> >>>>> * Page 15: Figure 2 >>>>> >>>>>     If the term "transport layer" cannot be avoided, the labels in >>>> this figure >>>>>     should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport layer". >>>>> >>>>> * Page 18: Figure 4 >>>>> >>>>>     As already mentioned earlier, Figure 4 is confusing. UDP is a >>>> transport >>>>>     protocol. If the term "transport" cannot be avoided, the labels in >>>> this >>>>>     figure should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport". >>>>> >>>>> * Page 23 >>>>> >>>>>      If the source transmits less data than this limit >>>>>      allows, the unused resource such as link bandwidth can be made >>>>>      available by the system to non-DetNet packets. >>>>> >>>>>     Could there be additional requirements on the use of unused >>>> resources by >>>>>     non-DetNet packets, e.g., regarding preemption? I am just >>>> wondering... If >>>>>     that was possible, a statement like "... can be made available by >>>> the system >>>>>     to non-DetNet packets as long as all guarantees are fulfilled" >>>> would be on >>>>>     the safe side, no? >>>>> >>>>> * Page 27: >>>>> >>>>>      DetNet achieves congestion protection and bounded delivery >>>> latency by >>>>>      reserving bandwidth and buffer resources at every hop along the >>>> path >>>>>      of the DetNet flow. >>>>> >>>>>     Why does this sentence use the word "hop"? As far as I understand, >>>> in DetNet >>>>>     bandwidth and buffer resources are reserved in each DetNet >>>> intermediate node. >>>>>     If there were hops over IP routers not being DetNet intermediate >>>> nodes, no >>>>>     resources would be reserved there. As per Section 4.3.3, it is >>>> possible to >>>>>     deploy DetNet this way. And obviously there can be resource >>>> bottlenecks below >>>>>     IP, on devices that are not routers... So does "hop" here refer to >>>> IP router >>>>>     hops or also to devices not processing IP (or IP/MPLS)? >>>>> >>>>> * Page 27: >>>>> >>>>>      Standard queuing and transmission selection algorithms allow a >>>>>      central controller to compute the latency contribution of each >>>>>      transit node to the end-to-end latency, ... >>>>> >>>>>     The text does not explain why a _central_ controller is needed for >>>> this >>>>>     computation. Why would a distributed control plane not be able to >>>> realize >>>>>     this computation. Isn't this implementation-specific? >>>>> >>>>> * Page 32 >>>>> >>>>>     To somebody who is not deeply familiar with DetNet, it is >>>> impossible to parse >>>>>     the description of the examples in Section 4.7.3. For instance, >>>> "VID + >>>>>     multicast MAC address" is not introduced. I think this example >>>> must be >>>>>     expaned with additional context and explanation to be useful to >>>> readers. >>>>> * Page 34 >>>>> >>>>>      There are three classes of information that a central controller >>>> or >>>>>      distributed control plane needs to know that can only be obtained >>>>>      from the end systems and/or nodes in the network. >>>>> >>>>>     Wouldn't it be sufficient to state "Provisioning of DetNet >>>> requires knowledge >>>>>     about ...". Does it matter in this context whether the >>>> provisioning is done >>>>>     by a central controller or a distributed control plane? For >>>> instance, could >>>>>     the same paragraph also apply to a network that uses _multiple_ >>>> central >>>>>     controllers, or hybrid combinations of central controllers and >>>> distributed >>>>>     control planes? In general, an architecture document should be >>>> agnostic to >>>>>     implementation aspects unless there is a specific need. In this >>>> specific >>>>>     case, I fail to see a need to discuss the realization of the >>>> control plane of >>>>>     a network. >>>>> >>>>> Editorial nits: >>>>> >>>>> * Page 9: >>>>> >>>>>      The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 provide the >>>>>      necessary regulation of transmissions by an end system or >>>>>      intermediate node to provide congestion protection. The >>>> allocation >>>>>      of the bandwidth and buffers for a DetNet flow requires >>>> provisioning >>>>>      A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation >>>> and/or >>>>>      scheduling, that might otherwise be over-subscribed and trigger >>>> the >>>>>      rejection of a reservation. >>>>> >>>>>     Probably a full stop is missing after "provisioning". >>>>> >>>>> * Page 11: "... along separate (disjoint non-SRLG) paths ..." >>>>> >>>>>     I find this confusing. I would understand e.g. "along separate >>>>>     (SRLG-disjoint) paths". >>>>> >>>>> * Page 34: >>>>> >>>>>      When using a peer- >>>>>      to-peer control plane, some of this information may be required >>>> by a >>>>>      system's neighbors in the network. >>>>> >>>>>     Would "acquired" be a better term? >>>>> >>>>> * Page 34: >>>>> >>>>>      o  The identity of the system's neighbors, and the >>>> characteristics of >>>>>         the link(s) between the systems, including the length (in >>>>>         nanoseconds) of the link(s). >>>>> >>>>>     "Latency" or "delay" would probably be a better terms if the value >>>> is >>>>>     measured in nanoseconds. >>>>> >>>>> * Page 35: >>>>> >>>>>      DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does >>>> not >>>>>      directly raise any new privacy considerations. >>>>> >>>>>     Broken sentence >>>>> >>>>> * Please expand acronyms on first use (e.g., OTN) >>>>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Thu Dec 13 10:55:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA931130E1B for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 10:55:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dh-QFi8nAZxn for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 10:55:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy2-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy2-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.18.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA7D4130934 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 10:55:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw11.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.11]) by gproxy2.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C601E0A70 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 11:55:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id XW9AgmrhjqZYcXW9AgwAnR; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 11:55:44 -0700 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 X-Authority-Analysis: $(_cmae_reason DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=WbN4DpNpSM06HYmBMG+SwSQcINsMywSvv1KZmOo7Er4=; b=K0gYzcqwpyw8B0j5NIFhImpwaQ 2g0oIzASA5M0YqGOQafzN0XnubiR/KBbRGqGs0u7c3SY1/jcM5/pMIBR+gUcGtF/6uA0+KonfmA6Z NwIZdtbKsnqkwGBh3V05sh2uR; Received: from pool-100-15-82-67.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.82.67]:37806 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gXW99-002Vyi-Sb; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 11:55:44 -0700 To: "Andrew G. Malis" Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de, draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org, detnet WG References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <5164e2e0-f4ff-331c-11e0-deb080d1c520@labn.net> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 13:55:42 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.82.67 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gXW99-002Vyi-Sb X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-82-67.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.82.67]:37806 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 9 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 18:55:51 -0000 Hi Andy, As SRv6 is implemented using an IPv6 routing header the figure below accurately shows IPv6 (and consequently SRv6) as being  part of the Forwarding sub-layer. In case you were really asking if use of SRv6 is in  scope of DetNet WG, I don't see anything in the charter that would preclude the WG working on DetNet SRv6. Lou On 12/13/2018 1:16 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Lou, > > I think we've discussed this before, but I wanted to confirm whether > SRv6 is in scope for the DetNet Forwarding sub-layer. > > Thanks, > Andy > > > On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 12:47 PM Lou Berger > wrote: > > Hi, > >      My reading is that the WG has settled on: > >        +----------------------------+ >        |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE >        +----------------------------+ >        | DetNet Forwarding sub-layer| IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, > MPLS SR >        +----------------------------+ >                      . >                      . > >                    Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > Authors, (of detnet-architecture) >      Please work to have the next rev of the draft reflect this > change. > > Thank you to all who participated in the discussion! > Lou > (as co-chair and doc shepherd) > > On 11/20/2018 1:18 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > > ALL, > > > > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the DetNet > > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport protocols. > > > > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced > "Transport" > > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". > > > > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this change? > > > > To be clear, the suggestion is: > > > > OLD > > > >                      . > >                      . > >        +----------------------------+ > >        |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE > >        +----------------------------+ > >        | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, > MPLS SR > >        +----------------------------+ > >                      . > >                      . > > > >                    Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > > > NEW > > > >                      . > >                      . > >        +----------------------------+ > >        |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE > >        +----------------------------+ > >        |      DetNet TE sub-layer   | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, > MPLS SR > >        +----------------------------+ > >                      . > >                      . > > > >                    Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > > > Lou > > > > On 11/20/2018 11:21 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > >> Hello Lou: > >> > >> > >> About ' discuss changing the name of the "DetNet Transport > sub-layer"  to avoid the word "transport".  ' > >> > >> For one I'd like to make that call. The unfortunate name > collision has started to hurt us quite a bit already and people > are getting confused on very active exchanges we have on the > mailing list. > >> > >> I tend to agree that for the general IETF "transport" generally > means "L4". Even point one in your email uses "transport" that way > I guess. Sadly many alternate names are highly overloaded already > (think "carrier" for instance, or "bus"). I like the term "train" > because of the association with a schedule, but that's just me. > >> > >> Same goes actually for the complex path that we build. That > complex path can be an elongated DODAG with multiple PREOF points. > Usual terms like "circuit" or "path" fail to capture that > complexity. 6TiSCH found the term "Track" to refer to it. > >> > >> Would you push that discussion to the ML? > >> > >> Take care, > >> > >> Pascal > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Lou Berger > > >>> Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 13:11 > >>> To: Scharf, Michael > > >>> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org ; > detnet@ietf.org ; draft-ietf-detnet- > >>> architecture.all@ietf.org > >>> Subject: Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of > draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 > >>> > >>> Michael, > >>> > >>> I think we're getting somewhere and identifying where we have > disconnects > >>> and what may (and what may not) need to change in the > document.  My > >>> takeaways are: > >>> > >>> - The document needs a good 'scrub' of the congestion related > references to > >>> ensure that the document only makes statements on what is > actually done > >>> within a DetNet and the relationship with transport protocols > that use detnet > >>> (which are in fact outside the scope of the DetNet WG).  I'll > work with the > >>> authors and WG on this -- I see this change as important, but > editorial in > >>> nature. > >>> > >>> - We have a perception issue with at least one member of the > TSV area on the > >>> meaning and more importantly, implication, of the term "DetNet > >>> *Transport* sub-layer".  While I don't disagree that a good > portion of the IETF > >>> thinks transport protocol (UDP/TCP) when they hear "transport" > >>> there are plenty others, particularly in the routing area, who > understand that > >>> "transport" can refer to Transport Networks.  And Transport > Network is a well > >>> understood general industry term. The IETF even has a bunch of > RFCs that > >>> relate to Transport networks.  This said, I think it > reasonable to go back to the > >>> DetNet WG and discuss changing the name of the "DetNet > Transport sub- > >>> layer"  to avoid the word "transport".  -- BTW we made a > parallel change in > >>> the TEAS WG when producing RFC8453. > >>> > >>> See below for detail response in-line. > >>> > >>> On 11/19/2018 5:15 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote: > >>>> Lou, > >>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> I wanted to take a step back from the multiple discussions > that were > >>>>> spawned by your review -- from a doc shepherd perspective, > and see > >>>>> where we are.   I know that the authors have sent a -09 > version that > >>>>> addresses some, but not all issues. > >>>>> > >>>>>     From the exchanges I've seen, I think the key remaining > issues are > >>>>> related to: > >>>>> > >>>>> (a) possibly introduction of congestion in the general > internet if > >>>>> packets were somehow to escape a detnet domain.  The source > of this > >>>>> congestion would be inelastic traffic using DetNet or due to > >>>>> congestion loss that is masked by PREOF. > >>>> These are two major issues that need to be addressed. Note > that it may not > >>> be sufficient just to add a section on operational and deployment > >>> considerations. Also the existing text in the document will > need to get aligned > >>> to normative guidance on how to avoid a congestion collapse. > >>>> In -09, one example would be Section 3.1. "Primary goals > defining the > >>> DetNet QoS" > >>>>       Congestion protection operates by allocating resources > along the path > >>>>       of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link > bandwidth.  Congestion > >>>>       protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates > entirely, packet loss > >>>>       due to output packet congestion within the network, but > it can only > >>>>       be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the > source to a > >>>>       maximum packet size and transmission rate.  Note that > congestion > >>>>       protection provided via congestion detection and > notification is > >>>>       explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it > serves a > >>>>       different set of applications. > >>>> At least the last sentence would contradict a better > discussion of congestion > >>> in the document. For instance, it could just be removed. In > any case, the > >>> current wording in the last sentence is not correct, as the > IETF term for what is > >>> described in the last sentence is "congestion control". > >>>> Another example would be  Section 3.2.1.1. "Eliminate > congestion loss" > >>>> > >>>>       The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS > assurances is to > >>>>       reduce, or even completely eliminate, congestion within > a DetNet node > >>>>       as a cause of packet loss.  This can be achieved only > by the > >>>>       provision of sufficient buffer storage at each node > through the > >>>>       network to ensure that no packets are dropped due to a > lack of buffer > >>>>       storage.  Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled, > i.e., its > >>>>       transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion > >>>>       notification. > >>>> > >>>> This section IMHO has to include a discussion of what happens > in the (not > >>> expected) case that packets get dropped or that ECN marks are > received. It is > >>> understood that this would not happen in normal operation of a > DetNet > >>> network, but I believe just considering the error-free > operation of a DetNet > >>> network is not sufficient for this document. At least for the > risk of traffic that > >>> may escape from a DetNet network is inherently not sufficient > to assume that > >>> the DetNet network is always error-free. > >>> > >>> I think these are examples of text that needs to be cleanup up > and to > >>> delineate what is done with a DetNet. > >>> > >>> > >>>> As a result, addressing my concerns will most likely require > editing several > >>> parts of the document. > >>>> In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review comment "It > is surprising > >>> that there is hardly any discussion on network robustness and > safety" > >>> > >>> I have no idea what you mean by safety here.  Can you elaborate. > >>> > >>> > >>>> covers more than just inelastic traffic that escapes from a > DetNet network > >>> and masking of packet loss. Given that DetNet traffic may be > extremely critical > >>> traffic, I really wonder why the document doesn't emphasize > more the > >>> required robustness against failures *inside* the DetNet > network as well as > >>> counter-measures. But this is something the WG needs to > decide. As TSV-ART > >>> reviewer, I will be fine if the document clearly describes how > the impact of > >>> failures will be isolated inside the DetNet network and will > not put the general > >>> Internet at risk. > >>> > >>> I agree - I think, the document should be clear on it's scope and > >>> relationship to general internet usage. > >>> > >>> > >>>>> (b) The use of the term 'transport' in DetNet to refer to > what is > >>>>> basically a Traffic Engineered sub-network layer, such as is > provided > >>>>> with MPLS-TE or Optical Transport Networks. > >>>> In the Internet architecture, the term 'transport' refers to > Internet transport > >>> protocols. I doubt that the document can avoid discussing the > implications of > >>> and interactions with Internet transport protocols such as UDP > or TCP. As a > >>> result, I disagree that the document can use the term > 'transport' to refer to > >>> traffic engineered sub-network layers. > >>> > >>> I think this is covered by my comment above. > >>> > >>> > >>>>    From a TSV-ART point of view, the document can either only > use the term > >>> "transport" for Internet transport protocols and use another > term for sub- > >>> network layers (as handled in the *routing* area of the IETF), > or the document > >>> has to clearly distinguish between the Internet transport > layer and other uses > >>> of the term "transport" and explain the overlap. I believe the > former would be > >>> less confusing, but I will leave it up to the TSV ADs to > discuss terminology > >>> overlap in the IESG. As TSV-ART reviewer I insist that the > document uses the > >>> terms "transport layer" and "transport protocol" only when > referring to the > >>> Internet transport layer. > >>> > >>> I'm personally okay with a name change and even willing to > push this > >>> discussion within the WG, but as said above, "Transport > Network" is a > >>> generally understood industry term that is also used in RFCs > -- so we'll > >>> have to see what where WG consensus ends up. > >>> > >>>>> Do you have any other issues that that are critical to be > addressed > >>>>> before this work moves forward?  If so which? > >>>> Regarding Section 4.4 I have already deferred the discussion > to the IESG. The > >>> TSV-ART review comment is that the IESG needs to carefully > look at the > >>> concepts, terminology, and references in section 4.4. > >>>> Regarding my other comments, I acknowledge that -09 is a step > forward. But > >>> given the cross-dependencies e.g. regarding terminology and > definitions, I will > >>> need to read the text completely once there is a proposal how > to address my > >>> review. As noted in my review, I believe the document must use > terminology > >>> clearly and consistently. As example, a statement in -09 such > as "Network > >>> nodes supporting DetNet flows have to implement some of the DetNet > >>> capabilities (not necessarily all) in order to treat DetNet > flows such that their > >>> QoS requirements are met" is IMHO too vague. But in such cases > it depends > >>> whether there is precise normative guidance elsewhere. And > this requires > >>> looking at the text as a whole. > >>> > >>> I think the next steps lie with me and the WG. We'll let you > know once > >>> there is a new version.  Of course, you can also contribute to > the WG > >>> discussion on the topic. > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> Lou > >>> > >>>> Best regards > >>>> > >>>> Michael > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Thank you, > >>>>> > >>>>> Lou > >>>>> > >>>>> On 9/28/2018 6:24 PM, Michael Scharf wrote: > >>>>>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf > >>>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" > >>>>>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall > framework for > >>>>>> Deterministic Networking. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues as > >>>>> detailed below. > >>>>>> Michael > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Major issues: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * It seems that DetNet cannot easily be deployed in the > Internet > >>>>> without > >>>>>> additional means. Thus, for a baseline document, one could > expect > >>>>> some > >>>>>> explanation on the requirements of deploying DetNet in a > network. > >>>>> DetNet > >>>>>> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices > >>>>> transporting DetNet > >>>>>> traffic. That assumption should be explicitly spelt out > early in the > >>>>> document, > >>>>>> e.g., in the introduction. There also needs to be an explicit > >>>>> discussion of the > >>>>>> implications if not the whole network is aware of or > supports DetNet. > >>>>> There is > >>>>>> some text in Section 4.2.2 and Section 4.3.3, but I believe > >>>>> additional explicit > >>>>>> discussion is needed at a prominant place. For instance, > can use of > >>>>> DetNet do > >>>>>> harm to parts of a network not supporting DetNet? As a side > note, > >>>>> when TCPM > >>>>>> published RFC 8257, the following disclaimer was added: > "DCTCP, as > >>>>> described in > >>>>>> this specification, is applicable to deployments in controlled > >>>>> environments > >>>>>> like data centers, but it must not be deployed over the public > >>>>> Internet without > >>>>>> additional measures." I wonder if a similar disclaimer is > needed for > >>>>> DetNet. If > >>>>>> there is an implicit assumption that DetNet will  be used in > >>>>> homogenous > >>>>>> environments with mostly DetNet-aware devices within the same > >>>>> organization, > >>>>>> such an assumption should be made explicit. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on > network > >>>>> robustness > >>>>>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For > instance, > >>>>>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet > replication > >>>>> could > >>>>>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. > How does the > >>>>> DetNet > >>>>>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational > e.g. if > >>>>> the topology > >>>>>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can > be solved > >>>>> by > >>>>>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are > >>>>> corresponding > >>>>>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that > filters and > >>>>> policers > >>>>>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still assumes > >>>>> consistently > >>>>>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And > Section > >>>>> 3.3.2 is > >>>>>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible > failures" without > >>>>> stating > >>>>>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further > solutions, > >>>>> such as > >>>>>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not > discussed? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of > failures to > >>>>> the QoS of > >>>>>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to > protect non- > >>>>> DetNet parts > >>>>>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. > Solutions to > >>>>> this > >>>>>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic > (e.g., in > >>>>> case of > >>>>>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not > discussed at > >>>>> all in the > >>>>>> document? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Regarding security, an architecture like DetNet probably > requires > >>>>> that only > >>>>>> authenticated and authorized end systems have access to the > data > >>>>> plane. The > >>>>>> security considerations only briefly mention the control > aspect ("the > >>>>>> authentication and authorization of the controlling systems"). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * For an architecture document, the lack of clarity and > consistency > >>>>> regarding > >>>>>> terminology is concerning. This specifically applies to the > case of > >>>>> incomplete > >>>>>> networks (as per Section 4.2.2 and 4.3.3) that include "DetNet- > >>>>> unaware nodes". > >>>>>> The document introduces terms such as "DetNet intermediate > nodes" but > >>>>> then > >>>>>> repeatedly uses generic terms such as "node" or "hop" that may > >>>>> include > >>>>>> DetNet-unaware nodes. For instance, for incomplete networks, a > >>>>> sentence such as > >>>>>> "The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS > assurances is to > >>>>> reduce, or > >>>>>> even completely eliminate, congestion within a node as a > cause of > >>>>> packet loss" > >>>>>> seems to only apply to "DetNet transit nodes" but not > "DetNet-unaware > >>>>> nodes". > >>>>>> Similar ambiguity exist for other use of the terms "hop" > and "node", > >>>>> which may > >>>>>> or may not include DetNet-unaware nodes. It is unclear why the > >>>>> document does > >>>>>> not consistently use the terminology introduced in Section > 2.1 in all > >>>>> sections > >>>>>> and clearly distinguishes cases with and without DetNet > support. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational > RFC on > >>>>> IRTF stream, > >>>>>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., > "planes"). > >>>>> This is > >>>>>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should > probably > >>>>> refer to > >>>>>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC > 7491, albeit > >>>>> there is > >>>>>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, > Section 4.4 > >>>>> is by and > >>>>>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not > specific to > >>>>> DetNet. > >>>>>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the concepts > >>>>> introduced in > >>>>>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology or > >>>>> discuss > >>>>>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions > explicitly at the > >>>>> end that > >>>>>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet > architecture. > >>>>> It is not > >>>>>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section > 4.4 could > >>>>> be removed > >>>>>> from the document without impacting the rest of the document. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Minor issues: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" > >>>>>> > >>>>>>       The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning > in the IETF, > >>>>> e.g. > >>>>>>       originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. > "transport > >>>>> network" is > >>>>>>       used in the IETF for different technologies in > different areas, I > >>>>> think the > >>>>>>       term "transport layer" is typically understood to > refer to > >>>>> transport > >>>>>>       protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally > find the term > >>>>> "DetNet > >>>>>>       transport layer" misleading and confusing. The > confusion is easy > >>>>> to see e.g. > >>>>>>       in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol > as per RFC > >>>>> 1122) sits > >>>>>>       on top of "transport". > >>>>>> > >>>>>>       Based on the document it also may be > solution/implementation > >>>>> specific whether > >>>>>>       the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate > protocol layer > >>>>> compared > >>>>>>       to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear > to me why the > >>>>> word > >>>>>>       "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination > "transport > >>>>> layer". > >>>>>>       To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport > protocol") > >>>>> should be > >>>>>>       used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent > with RFC 1122. > >>>>> But this is > >>>>>>       probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 9 > >>>>>> > >>>>>>        A DetNet node may have other resources requiring > allocation > >>>>> and/or > >>>>>>        scheduling, > >>>>>> > >>>>>>       This is just one of several examples for inconsistent > use of > >>>>> terminology. > >>>>>>       What is a "DetNet node"? That term is not introduced > in Section > >>>>> 2.1 > >>>>>> * Page 14 > >>>>>> > >>>>>>        A DetNet network supports the dedication of a high > proportion > >>>>> (e.g. > >>>>>>        75%) of the network bandwidth to DetNet flows. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>       The 75% value is not reasoned. What prevents using > 99% of the > >>>>> bandwidth for > >>>>>>       DetNet traffic? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 15: Figure 2 > >>>>>> > >>>>>>       If the term "transport layer" cannot be avoided, the > labels in > >>>>> this figure > >>>>>>       should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport layer". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 18: Figure 4 > >>>>>> > >>>>>>       As already mentioned earlier, Figure 4 is confusing. > UDP is a > >>>>> transport > >>>>>>       protocol. If the term "transport" cannot be avoided, > the labels in > >>>>> this > >>>>>>       figure should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 23 > >>>>>> > >>>>>>        If the source transmits less data than this limit > >>>>>>        allows, the unused resource such as link bandwidth > can be made > >>>>>>        available by the system to non-DetNet packets. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>       Could there be additional requirements on the use of > unused > >>>>> resources by > >>>>>>       non-DetNet packets, e.g., regarding preemption? I am just > >>>>> wondering... If > >>>>>>       that was possible, a statement like "... can be made > available by > >>>>> the system > >>>>>>       to non-DetNet packets as long as all guarantees are > fulfilled" > >>>>> would be on > >>>>>>       the safe side, no? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 27: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>        DetNet achieves congestion protection and bounded > delivery > >>>>> latency by > >>>>>>        reserving bandwidth and buffer resources at every > hop along the > >>>>> path > >>>>>>        of the DetNet flow. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>       Why does this sentence use the word "hop"? As far as > I understand, > >>>>> in DetNet > >>>>>>       bandwidth and buffer resources are reserved in each > DetNet > >>>>> intermediate node. > >>>>>>       If there were hops over IP routers not being DetNet > intermediate > >>>>> nodes, no > >>>>>>       resources would be reserved there. As per Section > 4.3.3, it is > >>>>> possible to > >>>>>>       deploy DetNet this way. And obviously there can be > resource > >>>>> bottlenecks below > >>>>>>       IP, on devices that are not routers... So does "hop" > here refer to > >>>>> IP router > >>>>>>       hops or also to devices not processing IP (or IP/MPLS)? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 27: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>        Standard queuing and transmission selection > algorithms allow a > >>>>>>        central controller to compute the latency > contribution of each > >>>>>>        transit node to the end-to-end latency, ... > >>>>>> > >>>>>>       The text does not explain why a _central_ controller > is needed for > >>>>> this > >>>>>>       computation. Why would a distributed control plane > not be able to > >>>>> realize > >>>>>>       this computation. Isn't this implementation-specific? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 32 > >>>>>> > >>>>>>       To somebody who is not deeply familiar with DetNet, it is > >>>>> impossible to parse > >>>>>>       the description of the examples in Section 4.7.3. For > instance, > >>>>> "VID + > >>>>>>       multicast MAC address" is not introduced. I think > this example > >>>>> must be > >>>>>>       expaned with additional context and explanation to be > useful to > >>>>> readers. > >>>>>> * Page 34 > >>>>>> > >>>>>>        There are three classes of information that a > central controller > >>>>> or > >>>>>>        distributed control plane needs to know that can > only be obtained > >>>>>>        from the end systems and/or nodes in the network. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>       Wouldn't it be sufficient to state "Provisioning of > DetNet > >>>>> requires knowledge > >>>>>>       about ...". Does it matter in this context whether the > >>>>> provisioning is done > >>>>>>       by a central controller or a distributed control > plane? For > >>>>> instance, could > >>>>>>       the same paragraph also apply to a network that uses > _multiple_ > >>>>> central > >>>>>>       controllers, or hybrid combinations of central > controllers and > >>>>> distributed > >>>>>>       control planes? In general, an architecture document > should be > >>>>> agnostic to > >>>>>>       implementation aspects unless there is a specific > need. In this > >>>>> specific > >>>>>>       case, I fail to see a need to discuss the realization > of the > >>>>> control plane of > >>>>>>       a network. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Editorial nits: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 9: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>        The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 > provide the > >>>>>>        necessary regulation of transmissions by an end > system or > >>>>>>        intermediate node to provide congestion protection.  The > >>>>> allocation > >>>>>>        of the bandwidth and buffers for a DetNet flow requires > >>>>> provisioning > >>>>>>        A DetNet node may have other resources requiring > allocation > >>>>> and/or > >>>>>>        scheduling, that might otherwise be over-subscribed > and trigger > >>>>> the > >>>>>>        rejection of a reservation. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>       Probably a full stop is missing after "provisioning". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 11: "... along separate (disjoint non-SRLG) paths ..." > >>>>>> > >>>>>>       I find this confusing. I would understand e.g. "along > separate > >>>>>>       (SRLG-disjoint) paths". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 34: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>        When using a peer- > >>>>>>        to-peer control plane, some of this information may > be required > >>>>> by a > >>>>>>        system's neighbors in the network. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>       Would "acquired" be a better term? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 34: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>        o  The identity of the system's neighbors, and the > >>>>> characteristics of > >>>>>>           the link(s) between the systems, including the > length (in > >>>>>>           nanoseconds) of the link(s). > >>>>>> > >>>>>>       "Latency" or "delay" would probably be a better terms > if the value > >>>>> is > >>>>>>       measured in nanoseconds. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Page 35: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>        DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and > as such, does > >>>>> not > >>>>>>        directly raise any new privacy considerations. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>       Broken sentence > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * Please expand acronyms on first use (e.g., OTN) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> detnet mailing list > >>>> detnet@ietf.org > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > From nobody Thu Dec 13 12:29:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8243130E84; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:29:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tn42eNwf6b18; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:29:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B685D130E82; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id t13so3743987qtn.3; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:29:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=G8fjXZd+12vNAx7lZWqPvz49uBUGQHjGDDjd1RVpwMc=; b=che5752nblySASVEc4zEuZuQSh2iF1BvMZh/iXxsWSt0sRwZ6JoJ/yWabg4GkoMI/i k63Rx85ZiWYSoYK0DeBp2t7H51bnFKnAgfbumljF+Pf81coAV7riSzM83akIS+lPItfb sfaEJZ5P+YwzV3/nDEcKwFJ1dlvu8SsmmaPQtlIuFN1dO6z0IbrMWJ87gYfgADl/OPkA QKfN/P/y/IL/54I0YFIlLuv3D6GFnWHS3q5oUcOHZnOrsBCgLyhqLBHy9PZFEDRR1V+i MrQOVZA1EJA6Uz9fsTLF2TbHl/crTJwoJd0QzgBRQF0Fwjv23KWXzbhs8e5/Y8JA7TBQ oEvw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=G8fjXZd+12vNAx7lZWqPvz49uBUGQHjGDDjd1RVpwMc=; b=H8ivU7sYgY2uRNaOvjwtyLTiUU53gRZJHzABuPjzM44RUD5Ns9BXryvH3l/d4g6pVO dIgDEM0Rpg4fCWjEQ403wMCDoVees4pOPPIBFoN10BWKjSJLd6z/+cBhjkr8GmnFwk1x jGpoYThAw2D6Cr48/r8P2lqT6R8/DYTgIzbOyfqUZ/0abX+gdzRyAw4OGUyuGgE8QCIV 6gUNVAoUIi0ZPlXQCxNXDzd70xXNV0stk+7pb4tD38C/UQVajs/IeQPQirF+UsVELc7H uhfvJvhcbLd2/dQtP+AzSwBUmMFKYZsZPkxhZ8L4SHBx/ooiO9z/jCXWTRz2ogiASFJI URIg== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWZb/Ar6bQ9RXyPVYM9FuNW6DgkqPln4ZhKgioYLsCPEnYXXPd5j +o83lYJFmYolOm4mkZM3wUEmDtFdXsR2NacLMGo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/WLBNFaDwDsdZumyVnDWMDC/2emdXIdLr6RJfQj0/JMaoV76rkJIwcZrzTgJ+aQrEz1E2Wg8N/cnCsheG6CzDU= X-Received: by 2002:aed:2cc4:: with SMTP id g62mr265056qtd.192.1544732977556; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:29:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <5164e2e0-f4ff-331c-11e0-deb080d1c520@labn.net> In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 15:29:25 -0500 Message-ID: To: Lou Berger Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de, draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org, detnet WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000066728a057ced2cd8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 20:29:46 -0000 --00000000000066728a057ced2cd8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Lou, Thanks, that's what I thought, but I didn't see it in your list of DetNet Forwarding sub-layer protocols. Cheers. Andy On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 1:55 PM Lou Berger wrote: > Hi Andy, > > As SRv6 is implemented using an IPv6 routing header the figure below > accurately shows IPv6 (and consequently SRv6) as being part of the > Forwarding sub-layer. > > In case you were really asking if use of SRv6 is in scope of DetNet WG, > I don't see anything in the charter that would preclude the WG working > on DetNet SRv6. > > Lou > > On 12/13/2018 1:16 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > Lou, > > > > I think we've discussed this before, but I wanted to confirm whether > > SRv6 is in scope for the DetNet Forwarding sub-layer. > > > > Thanks, > > Andy > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 12:47 PM Lou Berger > > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > My reading is that the WG has settled on: > > > > +----------------------------+ > > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE > > +----------------------------+ > > | DetNet Forwarding sub-layer| IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, > > MPLS SR > > +----------------------------+ > > . > > . > > > > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > > > Authors, (of detnet-architecture) > > Please work to have the next rev of the draft reflect this > > change. > > > > Thank you to all who participated in the discussion! > > Lou > > (as co-chair and doc shepherd) > > > > On 11/20/2018 1:18 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > > > ALL, > > > > > > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the DetNet > > > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport protocols. > > > > > > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced > > "Transport" > > > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". > > > > > > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this change? > > > > > > To be clear, the suggestion is: > > > > > > OLD > > > > > > . > > > . > > > +----------------------------+ > > > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE > > > +----------------------------+ > > > | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, > > MPLS SR > > > +----------------------------+ > > > . > > > . > > > > > > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > > > > > NEW > > > > > > . > > > . > > > +----------------------------+ > > > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE > > > +----------------------------+ > > > | DetNet TE sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, > > MPLS SR > > > +----------------------------+ > > > . > > > . > > > > > > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > On 11/20/2018 11:21 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > >> Hello Lou: > > >> > > >> > > >> About ' discuss changing the name of the "DetNet Transport > > sub-layer" to avoid the word "transport". ' > > >> > > >> For one I'd like to make that call. The unfortunate name > > collision has started to hurt us quite a bit already and people > > are getting confused on very active exchanges we have on the > > mailing list. > > >> > > >> I tend to agree that for the general IETF "transport" generally > > means "L4". Even point one in your email uses "transport" that way > > I guess. Sadly many alternate names are highly overloaded already > > (think "carrier" for instance, or "bus"). I like the term "train" > > because of the association with a schedule, but that's just me. > > >> > > >> Same goes actually for the complex path that we build. That > > complex path can be an elongated DODAG with multiple PREOF points. > > Usual terms like "circuit" or "path" fail to capture that > > complexity. 6TiSCH found the term "Track" to refer to it. > > >> > > >> Would you push that discussion to the ML? > > >> > > >> Take care, > > >> > > >> Pascal > > >> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: Lou Berger > > > >>> Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 13:11 > > >>> To: Scharf, Michael > > > > >>> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org ; > > detnet@ietf.org ; draft-ietf-detnet- > > >>> architecture.all@ietf.org > > >>> Subject: Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of > > draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 > > >>> > > >>> Michael, > > >>> > > >>> I think we're getting somewhere and identifying where we have > > disconnects > > >>> and what may (and what may not) need to change in the > > document. My > > >>> takeaways are: > > >>> > > >>> - The document needs a good 'scrub' of the congestion related > > references to > > >>> ensure that the document only makes statements on what is > > actually done > > >>> within a DetNet and the relationship with transport protocols > > that use detnet > > >>> (which are in fact outside the scope of the DetNet WG). I'll > > work with the > > >>> authors and WG on this -- I see this change as important, but > > editorial in > > >>> nature. > > >>> > > >>> - We have a perception issue with at least one member of the > > TSV area on the > > >>> meaning and more importantly, implication, of the term "DetNet > > >>> *Transport* sub-layer". While I don't disagree that a good > > portion of the IETF > > >>> thinks transport protocol (UDP/TCP) when they hear "transport" > > >>> there are plenty others, particularly in the routing area, who > > understand that > > >>> "transport" can refer to Transport Networks. And Transport > > Network is a well > > >>> understood general industry term. The IETF even has a bunch of > > RFCs that > > >>> relate to Transport networks. This said, I think it > > reasonable to go back to the > > >>> DetNet WG and discuss changing the name of the "DetNet > > Transport sub- > > >>> layer" to avoid the word "transport". -- BTW we made a > > parallel change in > > >>> the TEAS WG when producing RFC8453. > > >>> > > >>> See below for detail response in-line. > > >>> > > >>> On 11/19/2018 5:15 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote: > > >>>> Lou, > > >>>> > > >>>>> -- > > >>>>> I wanted to take a step back from the multiple discussions > > that were > > >>>>> spawned by your review -- from a doc shepherd perspective, > > and see > > >>>>> where we are. I know that the authors have sent a -09 > > version that > > >>>>> addresses some, but not all issues. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> From the exchanges I've seen, I think the key remaining > > issues are > > >>>>> related to: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> (a) possibly introduction of congestion in the general > > internet if > > >>>>> packets were somehow to escape a detnet domain. The source > > of this > > >>>>> congestion would be inelastic traffic using DetNet or due to > > >>>>> congestion loss that is masked by PREOF. > > >>>> These are two major issues that need to be addressed. Note > > that it may not > > >>> be sufficient just to add a section on operational and deployment > > >>> considerations. Also the existing text in the document will > > need to get aligned > > >>> to normative guidance on how to avoid a congestion collapse. > > >>>> In -09, one example would be Section 3.1. "Primary goals > > defining the > > >>> DetNet QoS" > > >>>> Congestion protection operates by allocating resources > > along the path > > >>>> of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link > > bandwidth. Congestion > > >>>> protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates > > entirely, packet loss > > >>>> due to output packet congestion within the network, but > > it can only > > >>>> be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the > > source to a > > >>>> maximum packet size and transmission rate. Note that > > congestion > > >>>> protection provided via congestion detection and > > notification is > > >>>> explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it > > serves a > > >>>> different set of applications. > > >>>> At least the last sentence would contradict a better > > discussion of congestion > > >>> in the document. For instance, it could just be removed. In > > any case, the > > >>> current wording in the last sentence is not correct, as the > > IETF term for what is > > >>> described in the last sentence is "congestion control". > > >>>> Another example would be Section 3.2.1.1. "Eliminate > > congestion loss" > > >>>> > > >>>> The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS > > assurances is to > > >>>> reduce, or even completely eliminate, congestion within > > a DetNet node > > >>>> as a cause of packet loss. This can be achieved only > > by the > > >>>> provision of sufficient buffer storage at each node > > through the > > >>>> network to ensure that no packets are dropped due to a > > lack of buffer > > >>>> storage. Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled, > > i.e., its > > >>>> transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit > congestion > > >>>> notification. > > >>>> > > >>>> This section IMHO has to include a discussion of what happens > > in the (not > > >>> expected) case that packets get dropped or that ECN marks are > > received. It is > > >>> understood that this would not happen in normal operation of a > > DetNet > > >>> network, but I believe just considering the error-free > > operation of a DetNet > > >>> network is not sufficient for this document. At least for the > > risk of traffic that > > >>> may escape from a DetNet network is inherently not sufficient > > to assume that > > >>> the DetNet network is always error-free. > > >>> > > >>> I think these are examples of text that needs to be cleanup up > > and to > > >>> delineate what is done with a DetNet. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> As a result, addressing my concerns will most likely require > > editing several > > >>> parts of the document. > > >>>> In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review comment "It > > is surprising > > >>> that there is hardly any discussion on network robustness and > > safety" > > >>> > > >>> I have no idea what you mean by safety here. Can you elaborate. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> covers more than just inelastic traffic that escapes from a > > DetNet network > > >>> and masking of packet loss. Given that DetNet traffic may be > > extremely critical > > >>> traffic, I really wonder why the document doesn't emphasize > > more the > > >>> required robustness against failures *inside* the DetNet > > network as well as > > >>> counter-measures. But this is something the WG needs to > > decide. As TSV-ART > > >>> reviewer, I will be fine if the document clearly describes how > > the impact of > > >>> failures will be isolated inside the DetNet network and will > > not put the general > > >>> Internet at risk. > > >>> > > >>> I agree - I think, the document should be clear on it's scope and > > >>> relationship to general internet usage. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>>> (b) The use of the term 'transport' in DetNet to refer to > > what is > > >>>>> basically a Traffic Engineered sub-network layer, such as is > > provided > > >>>>> with MPLS-TE or Optical Transport Networks. > > >>>> In the Internet architecture, the term 'transport' refers to > > Internet transport > > >>> protocols. I doubt that the document can avoid discussing the > > implications of > > >>> and interactions with Internet transport protocols such as UDP > > or TCP. As a > > >>> result, I disagree that the document can use the term > > 'transport' to refer to > > >>> traffic engineered sub-network layers. > > >>> > > >>> I think this is covered by my comment above. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> From a TSV-ART point of view, the document can either only > > use the term > > >>> "transport" for Internet transport protocols and use another > > term for sub- > > >>> network layers (as handled in the *routing* area of the IETF), > > or the document > > >>> has to clearly distinguish between the Internet transport > > layer and other uses > > >>> of the term "transport" and explain the overlap. I believe the > > former would be > > >>> less confusing, but I will leave it up to the TSV ADs to > > discuss terminology > > >>> overlap in the IESG. As TSV-ART reviewer I insist that the > > document uses the > > >>> terms "transport layer" and "transport protocol" only when > > referring to the > > >>> Internet transport layer. > > >>> > > >>> I'm personally okay with a name change and even willing to > > push this > > >>> discussion within the WG, but as said above, "Transport > > Network" is a > > >>> generally understood industry term that is also used in RFCs > > -- so we'll > > >>> have to see what where WG consensus ends up. > > >>> > > >>>>> Do you have any other issues that that are critical to be > > addressed > > >>>>> before this work moves forward? If so which? > > >>>> Regarding Section 4.4 I have already deferred the discussion > > to the IESG. The > > >>> TSV-ART review comment is that the IESG needs to carefully > > look at the > > >>> concepts, terminology, and references in section 4.4. > > >>>> Regarding my other comments, I acknowledge that -09 is a step > > forward. But > > >>> given the cross-dependencies e.g. regarding terminology and > > definitions, I will > > >>> need to read the text completely once there is a proposal how > > to address my > > >>> review. As noted in my review, I believe the document must use > > terminology > > >>> clearly and consistently. As example, a statement in -09 such > > as "Network > > >>> nodes supporting DetNet flows have to implement some of the > DetNet > > >>> capabilities (not necessarily all) in order to treat DetNet > > flows such that their > > >>> QoS requirements are met" is IMHO too vague. But in such cases > > it depends > > >>> whether there is precise normative guidance elsewhere. And > > this requires > > >>> looking at the text as a whole. > > >>> > > >>> I think the next steps lie with me and the WG. We'll let you > > know once > > >>> there is a new version. Of course, you can also contribute to > > the WG > > >>> discussion on the topic. > > >>> > > >>> Thanks, > > >>> > > >>> Lou > > >>> > > >>>> Best regards > > >>>> > > >>>> Michael > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> Thank you, > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Lou > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On 9/28/2018 6:24 PM, Michael Scharf wrote: > > >>>>>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf > > >>>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" > > >>>>>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall > > framework for > > >>>>>> Deterministic Networking. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues > as > > >>>>> detailed below. > > >>>>>> Michael > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Major issues: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * It seems that DetNet cannot easily be deployed in the > > Internet > > >>>>> without > > >>>>>> additional means. Thus, for a baseline document, one could > > expect > > >>>>> some > > >>>>>> explanation on the requirements of deploying DetNet in a > > network. > > >>>>> DetNet > > >>>>>> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices > > >>>>> transporting DetNet > > >>>>>> traffic. That assumption should be explicitly spelt out > > early in the > > >>>>> document, > > >>>>>> e.g., in the introduction. There also needs to be an explicit > > >>>>> discussion of the > > >>>>>> implications if not the whole network is aware of or > > supports DetNet. > > >>>>> There is > > >>>>>> some text in Section 4.2.2 and Section 4.3.3, but I believe > > >>>>> additional explicit > > >>>>>> discussion is needed at a prominant place. For instance, > > can use of > > >>>>> DetNet do > > >>>>>> harm to parts of a network not supporting DetNet? As a side > > note, > > >>>>> when TCPM > > >>>>>> published RFC 8257, the following disclaimer was added: > > "DCTCP, as > > >>>>> described in > > >>>>>> this specification, is applicable to deployments in controlled > > >>>>> environments > > >>>>>> like data centers, but it must not be deployed over the public > > >>>>> Internet without > > >>>>>> additional measures." I wonder if a similar disclaimer is > > needed for > > >>>>> DetNet. If > > >>>>>> there is an implicit assumption that DetNet will be used in > > >>>>> homogenous > > >>>>>> environments with mostly DetNet-aware devices within the same > > >>>>> organization, > > >>>>>> such an assumption should be made explicit. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on > > network > > >>>>> robustness > > >>>>>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For > > instance, > > >>>>>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet > > replication > > >>>>> could > > >>>>>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. > > How does the > > >>>>> DetNet > > >>>>>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational > > e.g. if > > >>>>> the topology > > >>>>>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can > > be solved > > >>>>> by > > >>>>>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are > > >>>>> corresponding > > >>>>>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that > > filters and > > >>>>> policers > > >>>>>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still > assumes > > >>>>> consistently > > >>>>>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And > > Section > > >>>>> 3.3.2 is > > >>>>>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible > > failures" without > > >>>>> stating > > >>>>>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further > > solutions, > > >>>>> such as > > >>>>>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not > > discussed? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of > > failures to > > >>>>> the QoS of > > >>>>>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to > > protect non- > > >>>>> DetNet parts > > >>>>>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. > > Solutions to > > >>>>> this > > >>>>>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic > > (e.g., in > > >>>>> case of > > >>>>>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not > > discussed at > > >>>>> all in the > > >>>>>> document? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * Regarding security, an architecture like DetNet probably > > requires > > >>>>> that only > > >>>>>> authenticated and authorized end systems have access to the > > data > > >>>>> plane. The > > >>>>>> security considerations only briefly mention the control > > aspect ("the > > >>>>>> authentication and authorization of the controlling systems"). > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * For an architecture document, the lack of clarity and > > consistency > > >>>>> regarding > > >>>>>> terminology is concerning. This specifically applies to the > > case of > > >>>>> incomplete > > >>>>>> networks (as per Section 4.2.2 and 4.3.3) that include > "DetNet- > > >>>>> unaware nodes". > > >>>>>> The document introduces terms such as "DetNet intermediate > > nodes" but > > >>>>> then > > >>>>>> repeatedly uses generic terms such as "node" or "hop" that may > > >>>>> include > > >>>>>> DetNet-unaware nodes. For instance, for incomplete networks, a > > >>>>> sentence such as > > >>>>>> "The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS > > assurances is to > > >>>>> reduce, or > > >>>>>> even completely eliminate, congestion within a node as a > > cause of > > >>>>> packet loss" > > >>>>>> seems to only apply to "DetNet transit nodes" but not > > "DetNet-unaware > > >>>>> nodes". > > >>>>>> Similar ambiguity exist for other use of the terms "hop" > > and "node", > > >>>>> which may > > >>>>>> or may not include DetNet-unaware nodes. It is unclear why the > > >>>>> document does > > >>>>>> not consistently use the terminology introduced in Section > > 2.1 in all > > >>>>> sections > > >>>>>> and clearly distinguishes cases with and without DetNet > > support. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational > > RFC on > > >>>>> IRTF stream, > > >>>>>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., > > "planes"). > > >>>>> This is > > >>>>>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should > > probably > > >>>>> refer to > > >>>>>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC > > 7491, albeit > > >>>>> there is > > >>>>>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, > > Section 4.4 > > >>>>> is by and > > >>>>>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not > > specific to > > >>>>> DetNet. > > >>>>>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the > concepts > > >>>>> introduced in > > >>>>>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology > or > > >>>>> discuss > > >>>>>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions > > explicitly at the > > >>>>> end that > > >>>>>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet > > architecture. > > >>>>> It is not > > >>>>>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section > > 4.4 could > > >>>>> be removed > > >>>>>> from the document without impacting the rest of the document. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Minor issues: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning > > in the IETF, > > >>>>> e.g. > > >>>>>> originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. > > "transport > > >>>>> network" is > > >>>>>> used in the IETF for different technologies in > > different areas, I > > >>>>> think the > > >>>>>> term "transport layer" is typically understood to > > refer to > > >>>>> transport > > >>>>>> protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally > > find the term > > >>>>> "DetNet > > >>>>>> transport layer" misleading and confusing. The > > confusion is easy > > >>>>> to see e.g. > > >>>>>> in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol > > as per RFC > > >>>>> 1122) sits > > >>>>>> on top of "transport". > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Based on the document it also may be > > solution/implementation > > >>>>> specific whether > > >>>>>> the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate > > protocol layer > > >>>>> compared > > >>>>>> to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear > > to me why the > > >>>>> word > > >>>>>> "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination > > "transport > > >>>>> layer". > > >>>>>> To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport > > protocol") > > >>>>> should be > > >>>>>> used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent > > with RFC 1122. > > >>>>> But this is > > >>>>>> probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * Page 9 > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> A DetNet node may have other resources requiring > > allocation > > >>>>> and/or > > >>>>>> scheduling, > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> This is just one of several examples for inconsistent > > use of > > >>>>> terminology. > > >>>>>> What is a "DetNet node"? That term is not introduced > > in Section > > >>>>> 2.1 > > >>>>>> * Page 14 > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> A DetNet network supports the dedication of a high > > proportion > > >>>>> (e.g. > > >>>>>> 75%) of the network bandwidth to DetNet flows. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> The 75% value is not reasoned. What prevents using > > 99% of the > > >>>>> bandwidth for > > >>>>>> DetNet traffic? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * Page 15: Figure 2 > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> If the term "transport layer" cannot be avoided, the > > labels in > > >>>>> this figure > > >>>>>> should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport layer". > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * Page 18: Figure 4 > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> As already mentioned earlier, Figure 4 is confusing. > > UDP is a > > >>>>> transport > > >>>>>> protocol. If the term "transport" cannot be avoided, > > the labels in > > >>>>> this > > >>>>>> figure should at least be expanded to "DetNet > transport". > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * Page 23 > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> If the source transmits less data than this limit > > >>>>>> allows, the unused resource such as link bandwidth > > can be made > > >>>>>> available by the system to non-DetNet packets. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Could there be additional requirements on the use of > > unused > > >>>>> resources by > > >>>>>> non-DetNet packets, e.g., regarding preemption? I am > just > > >>>>> wondering... If > > >>>>>> that was possible, a statement like "... can be made > > available by > > >>>>> the system > > >>>>>> to non-DetNet packets as long as all guarantees are > > fulfilled" > > >>>>> would be on > > >>>>>> the safe side, no? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * Page 27: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> DetNet achieves congestion protection and bounded > > delivery > > >>>>> latency by > > >>>>>> reserving bandwidth and buffer resources at every > > hop along the > > >>>>> path > > >>>>>> of the DetNet flow. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Why does this sentence use the word "hop"? As far as > > I understand, > > >>>>> in DetNet > > >>>>>> bandwidth and buffer resources are reserved in each > > DetNet > > >>>>> intermediate node. > > >>>>>> If there were hops over IP routers not being DetNet > > intermediate > > >>>>> nodes, no > > >>>>>> resources would be reserved there. As per Section > > 4.3.3, it is > > >>>>> possible to > > >>>>>> deploy DetNet this way. And obviously there can be > > resource > > >>>>> bottlenecks below > > >>>>>> IP, on devices that are not routers... So does "hop" > > here refer to > > >>>>> IP router > > >>>>>> hops or also to devices not processing IP (or IP/MPLS)? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * Page 27: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Standard queuing and transmission selection > > algorithms allow a > > >>>>>> central controller to compute the latency > > contribution of each > > >>>>>> transit node to the end-to-end latency, ... > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> The text does not explain why a _central_ controller > > is needed for > > >>>>> this > > >>>>>> computation. Why would a distributed control plane > > not be able to > > >>>>> realize > > >>>>>> this computation. Isn't this implementation-specific? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * Page 32 > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> To somebody who is not deeply familiar with DetNet, it > is > > >>>>> impossible to parse > > >>>>>> the description of the examples in Section 4.7.3. For > > instance, > > >>>>> "VID + > > >>>>>> multicast MAC address" is not introduced. I think > > this example > > >>>>> must be > > >>>>>> expaned with additional context and explanation to be > > useful to > > >>>>> readers. > > >>>>>> * Page 34 > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> There are three classes of information that a > > central controller > > >>>>> or > > >>>>>> distributed control plane needs to know that can > > only be obtained > > >>>>>> from the end systems and/or nodes in the network. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Wouldn't it be sufficient to state "Provisioning of > > DetNet > > >>>>> requires knowledge > > >>>>>> about ...". Does it matter in this context whether the > > >>>>> provisioning is done > > >>>>>> by a central controller or a distributed control > > plane? For > > >>>>> instance, could > > >>>>>> the same paragraph also apply to a network that uses > > _multiple_ > > >>>>> central > > >>>>>> controllers, or hybrid combinations of central > > controllers and > > >>>>> distributed > > >>>>>> control planes? In general, an architecture document > > should be > > >>>>> agnostic to > > >>>>>> implementation aspects unless there is a specific > > need. In this > > >>>>> specific > > >>>>>> case, I fail to see a need to discuss the realization > > of the > > >>>>> control plane of > > >>>>>> a network. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Editorial nits: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * Page 9: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 > > provide the > > >>>>>> necessary regulation of transmissions by an end > > system or > > >>>>>> intermediate node to provide congestion protection. > The > > >>>>> allocation > > >>>>>> of the bandwidth and buffers for a DetNet flow requires > > >>>>> provisioning > > >>>>>> A DetNet node may have other resources requiring > > allocation > > >>>>> and/or > > >>>>>> scheduling, that might otherwise be over-subscribed > > and trigger > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>> rejection of a reservation. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Probably a full stop is missing after "provisioning". > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * Page 11: "... along separate (disjoint non-SRLG) paths ..." > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I find this confusing. I would understand e.g. "along > > separate > > >>>>>> (SRLG-disjoint) paths". > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * Page 34: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> When using a peer- > > >>>>>> to-peer control plane, some of this information may > > be required > > >>>>> by a > > >>>>>> system's neighbors in the network. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Would "acquired" be a better term? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * Page 34: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> o The identity of the system's neighbors, and the > > >>>>> characteristics of > > >>>>>> the link(s) between the systems, including the > > length (in > > >>>>>> nanoseconds) of the link(s). > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "Latency" or "delay" would probably be a better terms > > if the value > > >>>>> is > > >>>>>> measured in nanoseconds. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * Page 35: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and > > as such, does > > >>>>> not > > >>>>>> directly raise any new privacy considerations. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Broken sentence > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * Please expand acronyms on first use (e.g., OTN) > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> detnet mailing list > > >>>> detnet@ietf.org > > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > --00000000000066728a057ced2cd8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lou,

Thanks, that's what I thought,= but I didn't see it in your list of DetNet Forwarding sub-layer protoc= ols.

Cheers.
Andy


On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at= 1:55 PM Lou Berger <lberger@labn.ne= t> wrote:
Hi Andy,

As SRv6 is implemented using an IPv6 routing header the figure below
accurately shows IPv6 (and consequently SRv6) as being=C2=A0 part of the Forwarding sub-layer.

In case you were really asking if use of SRv6 is in=C2=A0 scope of DetNet W= G,
I don't see anything in the charter that would preclude the WG working =
on DetNet SRv6.

Lou

On 12/13/2018 1:16 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote:
> Lou,
>
> I think we've discussed this before, but I wanted to confirm wheth= er
> SRv6 is in scope for the DetNet Forwarding sub-layer.
>
> Thanks,
> Andy
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 12:47 PM Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net
> <mailto:lberg= er@labn.net>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 My reading is that the WG = has settled on:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +------------------= ----------+
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 DetNet Serv= ice sub-layer=C2=A0 | PW, UDP, GRE
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +------------------= ----------+
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | DetNet Forwarding= sub-layer| IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MPLS SR
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +------------------= ----------+
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Figure 4: DetNet ada= ptation to data plane
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Authors, (of detnet-architecture)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Please work to have the ne= xt rev of the draft reflect this
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0change.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thank you to all who participated in the discussion= !
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lou
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(as co-chair and doc shepherd)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 11/20/2018 1:18 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> ALL,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> There is a desire to replace the word "Tr= ansport" from the DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$= Transport protocols.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and= we replaced
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Transport"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ".
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> While a bit more verbose, what do people think= about this change?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> To be clear, the suggestion is:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> OLD
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +--------= --------------------+
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 D= etNet Service sub-layer=C2=A0 | PW, UDP, GRE
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +--------= --------------------+
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | DetNet = Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MPLS SR
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +--------= --------------------+
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Figure 4: D= etNet adaptation to data plane
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> NEW
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +--------= --------------------+
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 D= etNet Service sub-layer=C2=A0 | PW, UDP, GRE
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +--------= --------------------+
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DetNet TE sub-layer =C2=A0 | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE L= SPs,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MPLS SR
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +--------= --------------------+
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Figure 4: D= etNet adaptation to data plane
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Lou
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> On 11/20/2018 11:21 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthube= rt) wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> Hello Lou:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> About ' discuss changing the name of t= he "DetNet Transport
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sub-layer"=C2=A0 to avoid the word "trans= port".=C2=A0 '
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> For one I'd like to make that call. Th= e unfortunate name
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0collision has started to hurt us quite a bit alread= y and people
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0are getting confused on very active exchanges we ha= ve on the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mailing list.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> I tend to agree that for the general IETF = "transport" generally
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0means "L4". Even point one in your email = uses "transport" that way
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I guess. Sadly many alternate names are highly over= loaded already
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(think "carrier" for instance, or "b= us"). I like the term "train"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0because of the association with a schedule, but tha= t's just me.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> Same goes actually for the complex path th= at we build. That
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0complex path can be an elongated DODAG with multipl= e PREOF points.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Usual terms like "circuit" or "path&= quot; fail to capture that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0complexity. 6TiSCH found the term "Track"= to refer to it.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> Would you push that discussion to the ML?<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> Take care,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> Pascal
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> -----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>= ;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 13:11
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> To: Scharf, Michael <Michael.Scharf@hs-ess= lingen.de
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org <mailto:tsv-art@ietf.org>;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0detnet@ietf.org <mailto:detnet@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-detnet-
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> architecture.all@ietf.org <mailto:architecture.all@ie= tf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> Subject: Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last call= review of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> Michael,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> I think we're getting somewhere an= d identifying where we have
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0disconnects
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> and what may (and what may not) need t= o change in the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document.=C2=A0 My
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> takeaways are:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> - The document needs a good 'scrub= ' of the congestion related
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0references to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> ensure that the document only makes st= atements on what is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0actually done
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> within a DetNet and the relationship w= ith transport protocols
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that use detnet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> (which are in fact outside the scope o= f the DetNet WG).=C2=A0 I'll
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0work with the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> authors and WG on this -- I see this c= hange as important, but
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0editorial in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> nature.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> - We have a perception issue with at l= east one member of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0TSV area on the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> meaning and more importantly, implicat= ion, of the term "DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> *Transport* sub-layer".=C2=A0 Whi= le I don't disagree that a good
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0portion of the IETF
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> thinks transport protocol (UDP/TCP) wh= en they hear "transport"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> there are plenty others, particularly = in the routing area, who
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0understand that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> "transport" can refer to Tra= nsport Networks.=C2=A0 And Transport
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Network is a well
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> understood general industry term. The = IETF even has a bunch of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFCs that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> relate to Transport networks.=C2=A0 Th= is said, I think it
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reasonable to go back to the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> DetNet WG and discuss changing the nam= e of the "DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Transport sub-
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> layer"=C2=A0 to avoid the word &q= uot;transport".=C2=A0 -- BTW we made a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0parallel change in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> the TEAS WG when producing RFC8453. >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> See below for detail response in-line.=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> On 11/19/2018 5:15 PM, Scharf, Michael= wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>> Lou,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> --
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> I wanted to take a step back f= rom the multiple discussions
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that were
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> spawned by your review -- from= a doc shepherd perspective,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and see
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> where we are.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I kn= ow that the authors have sent a -09
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0version that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> addresses some, but not all is= sues.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From the ex= changes I've seen, I think the key remaining
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0issues are
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> related to:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> (a) possibly introduction of c= ongestion in the general
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0internet if
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> packets were somehow to escape= a detnet domain.=C2=A0 The source
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of this
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> congestion would be inelastic = traffic using DetNet or due to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> congestion loss that is masked= by PREOF.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>> These are two major issues that ne= ed to be addressed. Note
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that it may not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> be sufficient just to add a section on= operational and deployment
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> considerations. Also the existing text= in the document will
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0need to get aligned
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> to normative guidance on how to avoid = a congestion collapse.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>> In -09, one example would be Secti= on 3.1. "Primary goals
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0defining the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> DetNet QoS"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Congesti= on protection operates by allocating resources
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0along the path
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of a Det= Net flow, e.g., buffer space or link
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bandwidth.=C2=A0 Congestion
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0protecti= on greatly reduces, or even eliminates
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0entirely, packet loss
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0due to o= utput packet congestion within the network, but
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0it can only
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be suppl= ied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0source to a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0maximum = packet size and transmission rate.=C2=A0 Note that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0congestion
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0protecti= on provided via congestion detection and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0notification is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0explicit= ly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0serves a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0differen= t set of applications.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>> At least the last sentence would c= ontradict a better
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussion of congestion
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> in the document. For instance, it coul= d just be removed. In
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0any case, the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> current wording in the last sentence i= s not correct, as the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF term for what is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> described in the last sentence is &quo= t;congestion control".
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>> Another example would be=C2=A0 Sec= tion 3.2.1.1. "Eliminate
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0congestion loss"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The prim= ary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0assurances is to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reduce, = or even completely eliminate, congestion within
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a DetNet node
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as a cau= se of packet loss.=C2=A0 This can be achieved only
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0by the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0provisio= n of sufficient buffer storage at each node
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0through the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network = to ensure that no packets are dropped due to a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0lack of buffer
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0storage.= =C2=A0 Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0i.e., its
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transmis= sion rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0notifica= tion.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>> This section IMHO has to include a= discussion of what happens
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the (not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> expected) case that packets get droppe= d or that ECN marks are
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0received. It is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> understood that this would not happen = in normal operation of a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> network, but I believe just considerin= g the error-free
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0operation of a DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> network is not sufficient for this doc= ument. At least for the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0risk of traffic that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> may escape from a DetNet network is in= herently not sufficient
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to assume that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> the DetNet network is always error-fre= e.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> I think these are examples of text tha= t needs to be cleanup up
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> delineate what is done with a DetNet.<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>> As a result, addressing my concern= s will most likely require
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0editing several
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> parts of the document.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>> In addition, I'd like to empha= size that my review comment "It
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is surprising
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> that there is hardly any discussion on= network robustness and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0safety"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> I have no idea what you mean by safety= here.=C2=A0 Can you elaborate.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>> covers more than just inelastic tr= affic that escapes from a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0DetNet network
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> and masking of packet loss. Given that= DetNet traffic may be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0extremely critical
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> traffic, I really wonder why the docum= ent doesn't emphasize
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0more the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> required robustness against failures *= inside* the DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network as well as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> counter-measures. But this is somethin= g the WG needs to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0decide. As TSV-ART
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> reviewer, I will be fine if the docume= nt clearly describes how
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the impact of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> failures will be isolated inside the D= etNet network and will
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not put the general
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> Internet at risk.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> I agree - I think, the document should= be clear on it's scope and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> relationship to general internet usage= .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> (b) The use of the term 't= ransport' in DetNet to refer to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0what is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> basically a Traffic Engineered= sub-network layer, such as is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0provided
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> with MPLS-TE or Optical Transp= ort Networks.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>> In the Internet architecture, the = term 'transport' refers to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet transport
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> protocols. I doubt that the document c= an avoid discussing the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implications of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> and interactions with Internet transpo= rt protocols such as UDP
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or TCP. As a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> result, I disagree that the document c= an use the term
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'transport' to refer to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> traffic engineered sub-network layers.=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> I think this is covered by my comment = above.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 From a TSV-ART point = of view, the document can either only
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0use the term
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> "transport" for Internet tra= nsport protocols and use another
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0term for sub-
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> network layers (as handled in the *rou= ting* area of the IETF),
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or the document
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> has to clearly distinguish between the= Internet transport
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0layer and other uses
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> of the term "transport" and = explain the overlap. I believe the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0former would be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> less confusing, but I will leave it up= to the TSV ADs to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discuss terminology
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> overlap in the IESG. As TSV-ART review= er I insist that the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document uses the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> terms "transport layer" and = "transport protocol" only when
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0referring to the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> Internet transport layer.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> I'm personally okay with a name ch= ange and even willing to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0push this
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> discussion within the WG, but as said = above, "Transport
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Network" is a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> generally understood industry term tha= t is also used in RFCs
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-- so we'll
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> have to see what where WG consensus en= ds up.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> Do you have any other issues t= hat that are critical to be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0addressed
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> before this work moves forward= ?=C2=A0 If so which?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>> Regarding Section 4.4 I have alrea= dy deferred the discussion
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to the IESG. The
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> TSV-ART review comment is that the IES= G needs to carefully
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0look at the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> concepts, terminology, and references = in section 4.4.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>> Regarding my other comments, I ack= nowledge that -09 is a step
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0forward. But
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> given the cross-dependencies e.g. rega= rding terminology and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0definitions, I will
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> need to read the text completely once = there is a proposal how
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to address my
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> review. As noted in my review, I belie= ve the document must use
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0terminology
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> clearly and consistently. As example, = a statement in -09 such
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as "Network
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> nodes supporting DetNet flows have to = implement some of the DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> capabilities (not necessarily all) in = order to treat DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0flows such that their
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> QoS requirements are met" is IMHO= too vague. But in such cases
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0it depends
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> whether there is precise normative gui= dance elsewhere. And
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this requires
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> looking at the text as a whole.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> I think the next steps lie with me and= the WG. We'll let you
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0know once
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> there is a new version.=C2=A0 Of cours= e, you can also contribute to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the WG
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> discussion on the topic.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> Thanks,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> Lou
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>> Best regards
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>> Michael
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> Thank you,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> Lou
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> On 9/28/2018 6:24 PM, Michael = Scharf wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> Review result: Ready with = Issues
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> The document "Determi= nistic Networking Architecture"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> (draft-ietf-detnet-archite= cture-08) defines an overall
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0framework for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> Deterministic Networking.<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I bel= ieve that this document has issues as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> detailed below.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> Michael
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> Major issues:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * It seems that DetNet can= not easily be deployed in the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> without
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> additional means. Thus, fo= r a baseline document, one could
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0expect
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> some
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> explanation on the require= ments of deploying DetNet in a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> basically requires support= in (almost) all network devices
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> transporting DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> traffic. That assumption s= hould be explicitly spelt out
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0early in the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> document,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> e.g., in the introduction.= There also needs to be an explicit
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> discussion of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> implications if not the wh= ole network is aware of or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0supports DetNet.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> There is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> some text in Section 4.2.2= and Section 4.3.3, but I believe
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> additional explicit
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> discussion is needed at a = prominant place. For instance,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0can use of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> DetNet do
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> harm to parts of a network= not supporting DetNet? As a side
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0note,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> when TCPM
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> published RFC 8257, the fo= llowing disclaimer was added:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"DCTCP, as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> described in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> this specification, is app= licable to deployments in controlled
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> environments
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> like data centers, but it = must not be deployed over the public
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> Internet without
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> additional measures."= I wonder if a similar disclaimer is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0needed for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> DetNet. If
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> there is an implicit assum= ption that DetNet will=C2=A0 be used in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> homogenous
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> environments with mostly D= etNet-aware devices within the same
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> organization,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> such an assumption should = be made explicit.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * It is surprising that th= ere is hardly any discussion on
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> robustness
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> and safety; this probably = also relates to security. For
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0instance,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> misconfiguration or errors= of functions performing packet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0replication
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> could
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> severely and permantly con= gest a network and cause harm.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0How does the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> architecture ensure that a= network stays fully operational
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0e.g. if
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> the topology
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> changes or there are equip= ment failures? Probably this can
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be solved
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> by
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> implementations (e.g., dyn= amic control plane), but why are
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> corresponding
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> requirements not spelt out= ? Section 3.3.2 speculates that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0filters and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> policers
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> can help, and that may be = true, but that probably still assumes
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> consistently
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> and correctly configured (= and well-behaving) devices. And
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Section
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> 3.3.2 is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> vague and mentions a "= ;infinite variety of possible
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0failures" without
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> stating
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> any requirements or recomm= endations. There may be further
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0solutions,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> such as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> circuit breakers and the l= ike. Why are such topics not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussed?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * Somewhat related, the do= cument only looks at impact of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0failures to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> the QoS of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> DetNet traffic. What is mi= ssing is a discussion how to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0protect non-
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> DetNet parts
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> of a network from any harm= caused by DetNet mechanisms.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Solutions to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> this
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> probably exist. But why is= the impact on non-DetNet traffic
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(e.g., in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> case of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> topology changes or failur= es of DetNet functions) not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussed at
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> all in the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> document?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * Regarding security, an a= rchitecture like DetNet probably
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0requires
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> that only
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> authenticated and authoriz= ed end systems have access to the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0data
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> plane. The
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> security considerations on= ly briefly mention the control
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0aspect ("the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> authentication and authori= zation of the controlling systems").
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * For an architecture docu= ment, the lack of clarity and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0consistency
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> regarding
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> terminology is concerning.= This specifically applies to the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0case of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> incomplete
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> networks (as per Section 4= .2.2 and 4.3.3) that include "DetNet-
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> unaware nodes".
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> The document introduces te= rms such as "DetNet intermediate
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0nodes" but
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> then
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> repeatedly uses generic te= rms such as "node" or "hop" that may
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> include
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> DetNet-unaware nodes. For = instance, for incomplete networks, a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> sentence such as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> "The primary means by= which DetNet achieves its QoS
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0assurances is to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> reduce, or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> even completely eliminate,= congestion within a node as a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cause of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> packet loss"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> seems to only apply to &qu= ot;DetNet transit nodes" but not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"DetNet-unaware
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> nodes".
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> Similar ambiguity exist fo= r other use of the terms "hop"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and "node",
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> which may
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> or may not include DetNet-= unaware nodes. It is unclear why the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> document does
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> not consistently use the t= erminology introduced in Section
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02.1 in all
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> sections
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> and clearly distinguishes = cases with and without DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0support.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * Section 4.4 refers to RF= C 7426, which is an informational
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC on
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> IRTF stream,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> and the document uses the = concepts introduced there (e.g.,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"planes").
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> This is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> very confusing. First, an = IETF Proposed Standard should
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0probably
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> refer to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> documents having IETF cons= ensus. An example would be RFC
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A07491, albeit
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> there is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> other related work as well= , e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 4.4
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> is by and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> large decoupled from the r= est of the document and not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0specific to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> DetNet.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> Neither do other sections = of the document refer to the concepts
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> introduced in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> Section 4.4, nor does Sect= ion 4.4 use the DetNet terminology or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> discuss
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> applicability to DetNet. S= ection 4.4 even mentions
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0explicitly at the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> end that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> it discusses aspects that = are orthogonal to the DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0architecture.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> It is not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> at all clear why Section 4= .4 is in this document. Section
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.4 could
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> be removed
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> from the document without = impacting the rest of the document.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> Minor issues:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * Terminology "DetNet= transport layer"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the IETF,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> e.g.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"transport
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> network" is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= used in the IETF for different technologies in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0different areas, I
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> think the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= term "transport layer" is typically understood to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0refer to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> transport
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0find the term
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> "DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= transport layer" misleading and confusing. The
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0confusion is easy
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> to see e.g.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as per RFC
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> 1122) sits
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= on top of "transport".
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= Based on the document it also may be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0solution/implementation
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> specific whether
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol layer
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> compared
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to me why the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> word
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"transport
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> layer".
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol")
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> should be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with RFC 1122.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> But this is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * Page 9
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= A DetNet node may have other resources requiring
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0allocation
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> and/or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= scheduling,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= This is just one of several examples for inconsistent
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0use of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> terminology.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= What is a "DetNet node"? That term is not introduced
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in Section
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> 2.1
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * Page 14
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= A DetNet network supports the dedication of a high
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0proportion
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> (e.g.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= 75%) of the network bandwidth to DetNet flows.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= The 75% value is not reasoned. What prevents using
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A099% of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> bandwidth for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= DetNet traffic?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * Page 15: Figure 2
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= If the term "transport layer" cannot be avoided, the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0labels in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> this figure
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport layer".
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * Page 18: Figure 4
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= As already mentioned earlier, Figure 4 is confusing.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0UDP is a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> transport
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= protocol. If the term "transport" cannot be avoided,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the labels in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> this
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= figure should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport".
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * Page 23
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= If the source transmits less data than this limit
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= allows, the unused resource such as link bandwidth
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0can be made
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= available by the system to non-DetNet packets.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= Could there be additional requirements on the use of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0unused
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> resources by
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= non-DetNet packets, e.g., regarding preemption? I am just
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> wondering... If
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= that was possible, a statement like "... can be made
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0available by
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> the system
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= to non-DetNet packets as long as all guarantees are
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0fulfilled"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> would be on
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= the safe side, no?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * Page 27:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= DetNet achieves congestion protection and bounded
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0delivery
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> latency by
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= reserving bandwidth and buffer resources at every
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hop along the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> path
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= of the DetNet flow.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= Why does this sentence use the word "hop"? As far as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I understand,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> in DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= bandwidth and buffer resources are reserved in each
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> intermediate node.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= If there were hops over IP routers not being DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0intermediate
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> nodes, no
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= resources would be reserved there. As per Section
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.3.3, it is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> possible to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= deploy DetNet this way. And obviously there can be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0resource
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> bottlenecks below
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= IP, on devices that are not routers... So does "hop"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0here refer to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> IP router
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= hops or also to devices not processing IP (or IP/MPLS)?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * Page 27:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= Standard queuing and transmission selection
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0algorithms allow a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= central controller to compute the latency
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0contribution of each
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= transit node to the end-to-end latency, ...
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= The text does not explain why a _central_ controller
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is needed for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> this
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= computation. Why would a distributed control plane
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not be able to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> realize
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= this computation. Isn't this implementation-specific?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * Page 32
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= To somebody who is not deeply familiar with DetNet, it is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> impossible to parse
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= the description of the examples in Section 4.7.3. For
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0instance,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> "VID +
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= multicast MAC address" is not introduced. I think
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this example
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> must be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= expaned with additional context and explanation to be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0useful to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> readers.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * Page 34
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= There are three classes of information that a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0central controller
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= distributed control plane needs to know that can
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0only be obtained
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= from the end systems and/or nodes in the network.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= Wouldn't it be sufficient to state "Provisioning of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> requires knowledge
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= about ...". Does it matter in this context whether the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> provisioning is done
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= by a central controller or a distributed control
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0plane? For
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> instance, could
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= the same paragraph also apply to a network that uses
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_multiple_
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> central
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= controllers, or hybrid combinations of central
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0controllers and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> distributed
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= control planes? In general, an architecture document
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> agnostic to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= implementation aspects unless there is a specific
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0need. In this
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> specific
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= case, I fail to see a need to discuss the realization
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> control plane of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= a network.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> Editorial nits:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * Page 9:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0provide the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= necessary regulation of transmissions by an end
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0system or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= intermediate node to provide congestion protection.=C2=A0 The
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> allocation
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= of the bandwidth and buffers for a DetNet flow requires
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> provisioning
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= A DetNet node may have other resources requiring
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0allocation
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> and/or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= scheduling, that might otherwise be over-subscribed
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and trigger
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= rejection of a reservation.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= Probably a full stop is missing after "provisioning".
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * Page 11: "... along= separate (disjoint non-SRLG) paths ..."
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= I find this confusing. I would understand e.g. "along
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0separate
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= (SRLG-disjoint) paths".
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * Page 34:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= When using a peer-
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= to-peer control plane, some of this information may
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be required
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> by a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= system's neighbors in the network.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= Would "acquired" be a better term?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * Page 34:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= o=C2=A0 The identity of the system's neighbors, and the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> characteristics of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0the link(s) between the systems, including the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0length (in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0nanoseconds) of the link(s).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= "Latency" or "delay" would probably be a better terms >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0if the value
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= measured in nanoseconds.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * Page 35:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as such, does
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>> not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= directly raise any new privacy considerations.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= Broken sentence
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>> * Please expand acronyms o= n first use (e.g., OTN)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>> __________________________________= _____________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>> detnet mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>> detnet@ietf.org <mailto:detnet@ietf.org>
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--00000000000066728a057ced2cd8-- From nobody Thu Dec 13 12:36:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F007130E82; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:36:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0-wNEOq_ORV8; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:36:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x831.google.com (mail-qt1-x831.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::831]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC087130E2B; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:36:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x831.google.com with SMTP id t33so1016098qtt.4; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:36:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=x9VJaOJ5t1WCnKwoKOPCMBW2UkZSnny4QfxEUnIYuuI=; b=h7zsV4WZSkysSxNk2vXyzjrpw/gbDQ94NljUtDOZMOj0+SV06bNEnJfV+iw132qHhg /RozeqToqRFtTGSPr7HPzvF6EsbtaOs+JcgDawJULIdvbmLbxxO6nDAV1xzvgfxygvmY 7xijFRaAMnIVn1oTIM6K1tgNaGsWONqdQ5GMbuNuk1rwLrbQq+gRgRvEdqir4ehdMmGQ 2prVMsoqx5xtq2jrBMNhTycJC4ZLVSLdedKj8jbLVDCR9up3CFDXtxxFi3OUFhLFFZ7D a1ttMlbOmlTVBlZPaK2kPPDGfdMw5stt9eFo0OChII/w+hH+WedogtkDVXz1DxZ4kuAl sVqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=x9VJaOJ5t1WCnKwoKOPCMBW2UkZSnny4QfxEUnIYuuI=; b=e1NKDIj8WJLiGms0QhNSgYYfMQWE3V/o5Sx5nkrJcwkpKlqvx0W0fLAmcFL0wDwp1I GwS+evh2M83pQJRceG6oxPn5qJdgnQrlmSL5cjceCHSH36TNoKPAZoWS5fTKRw4RFr04 sRGFTKjVpUIlqyW8u35H7tz9bfKgDERIVv8ZQbRfVtWC7g3u88zLoh/9arR6rhIyXKA8 oxuGqc0l8Pk9pmDzdWuBj5CkmayhShzVUd3+dys6pzL4PfrE8R4nmncv6g9yH2HpQhWI PqKldcbd5ALlGtHVv/CODsGrZCHCKSu+Vf6F64NvSSBBakvNG3vAdAF64Qb0lp5Aei6P 5yUg== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWbCwET4LfNu1loAUXJiVS3FlckUnYmFZ1zuPn2UUl0D6vkM/Zed 97cRy2G3JknviqAEnDsAaGSprQ6E37DRtufQTxEWHQKs X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/XGhb2VE/+9Cf1A6DHaFTvyt6hktwIUrzHhq8pBvaUXGX+SsqBQBP1MbexfV6gNgafmMy8ww/vRb+sfmJAkOrw= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:c389:: with SMTP id o9mr299929qvi.90.1544733398802; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:36:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <090ae5ba-e44c-f8fa-7259-5ab1b01fb23c@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 15:36:27 -0500 Message-ID: To: Lou Berger Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?J=C3=A1nos_Farkas?= , Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de, draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org, detnet WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000822536057ced45a6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 20:36:47 -0000 --000000000000822536057ced45a6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lou, I think of "Resource management" as a superset of "Resource allocation", and so prefer "Resource management". That said, I can live with "Resource allocation" if that comes out as the consensus. Cheers, Andy On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 1:23 PM Lou Berger wrote: > All, > > I met with the authors of detnet-architecture to see if we could > come up with a a single proposal. The discussion led to three > candidates (see below for ordered list). In the interest of closing on > this topic, I'd like to ask if there are *objections* to changing the > term "Congestion protection" to "Resource allocation". Looking at the > related, first use, text in Section 3.2.1 this change would read > something like: > > Three techniques are used by DetNet to provide these qualities of > service: > o Resource allocation (Section 3.2.1). > o Service protection (Section 3.2.2). > o Explicit routes (Section 3.2.3). > > Resource allocation operates by assigning resources, e.g., buffer > space or link bandwidth, to a DetNet flow (or flow aggregate) along > its path. Resource allocation greatly reduces, or even eliminates > entirely, packet loss due to output packet contention within the > network, but it can only be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited > at the source to a maximum packet size and transmission rate. Note > that congestion control provided via congestion detection and > notification [RFC3168] is explicitly excluded from consideration in > DetNet, as it serves a different set of applications. > > Resource allocation addresses two of the DetNet QoS requirements: > latency and packet loss. Given that DetNet nodes have a finite > amount of buffer space, Resource allocation necessarily results in > a maximum end-to-end latency. It also addresses contention related > packet loss. > > Other important contribution to packet loss are random media errors > and equipment failures... > > Please respond, if you think this change (to 'resource allocation') is: > (a) acceptable/something you can live with > (b) unacceptable/something you think should not be part of the > DetNet architecture > > (Note: please wait for the author to revise the actual text above based > on the outcome of this thread before providing edits.) > > Thank you, > Lou > (as co-chair and shepherd) > > The top three alternatives at the end of the meeting, in order were: > 1. Resource allocation > 2. Resource management > 3. Contention management > > On 12/10/2018 9:29 AM, J=C3=A1nos Farkas wrote: > > Hi, > > > > As I understand, there is confusion around two DetNet terms. > > We are removing "transport". > > > > The other one is "congestion" and "congestion protection". > > > > Brief description of congestion protection in Section 3.1: > > > > Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along the > path > > of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. Congestion > > protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, packet lo= ss > > due to output packet congestion within the network, but it can onl= y > > be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to a > > maximum packet size and transmission rate. Note that congestion > > protection provided via congestion detection and notification is > > explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it serves a > > different set of applications. > > > > Congestion protection addresses two of the DetNet QoS requirements= : > > latency and packet loss. Given that DetNet nodes have a finite > > amount of buffer space, congestion protection necessarily results = in > > a maximum end-to-end latency. It also addresses the largest > > contribution to packet loss, which is buffer congestion. > > > > Detailed description is in Section 3.2.1. > > > > We wanted to have a brief collective term for the mechanisms used to > > avoid queuing related packet loss (including buffer overflow etc.). > > > > Based on the discussions, we should have a term that does not include > > "congestion". > > ("Service Protection" is another DetNet term, hence we may consider a > > term without "protection" to minimize confusion.) > > > > I suggest to replace "congestion protection" with "queuing loss > avoidance". > > > > After agreeing in the terminology cahnge (if any), the text has to be > > updated accordingly. > > > > What do you think? > > > > Best regards, > > Janos > > > > > > On 11/20/2018 1:11 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > >> Michael, > >> > >> I think we're getting somewhere and identifying where we have > >> disconnects and what may (and what may not) need to change in the > >> document. My takeaways are: > >> > >> - The document needs a good 'scrub' of the congestion related > >> references to ensure that the document only makes statements on what > >> is actually done within a DetNet and the relationship with transport > >> protocols that use detnet (which are in fact outside the scope of the > >> DetNet WG). I'll work with the authors and WG on this -- I see this > >> change as important, but editorial in nature. > >> > >> - We have a perception issue with at least one member of the TSV area > >> on the meaning and more importantly, implication, of the term "DetNet > >> *Transport* sub-layer". While I don't disagree that a good portion of > >> the IETF thinks transport protocol (UDP/TCP) when they hear > >> "transport" there are plenty others, particularly in the routing area, > >> who understand that "transport" can refer to Transport Networks. And > >> Transport Network is a well understood general industry term. The IETF > >> even has a bunch of RFCs that relate to Transport networks. This > >> said, I think it reasonable to go back to the DetNet WG and discuss > >> changing the name of the "DetNet Transport sub-layer" to avoid the > >> word "transport". -- BTW we made a parallel change in the TEAS WG > >> when producing RFC8453. > >> > >> See below for detail response in-line. > >> > >> On 11/19/2018 5:15 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote: > >>> Lou, > >>> > >>>> -- > >>>> I wanted to take a step back from the multiple discussions that were > >>>> spawned by your review -- from a doc shepherd perspective, and see > >>>> where > >>>> we are. I know that the authors have sent a -09 version that > >>>> addresses > >>>> some, but not all issues. > >>>> > >>>> From the exchanges I've seen, I think the key remaining issues ar= e > >>>> related to: > >>>> > >>>> (a) possibly introduction of congestion in the general internet if > >>>> packets were somehow to escape a detnet domain. The source of this > >>>> congestion would be inelastic traffic using DetNet or due to > congestion > >>>> loss that is masked by PREOF. > >>> These are two major issues that need to be addressed. Note that it > >>> may not be sufficient just to add a section on operational and > >>> deployment considerations. Also the existing text in the document > >>> will need to get aligned to normative guidance on how to avoid a > >>> congestion collapse. > >>> > >>> In -09, one example would be Section 3.1. "Primary goals defining the > >>> DetNet QoS" > >>> > >>> Congestion protection operates by allocating resources along the > >>> path > >>> of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link bandwidth. Congesti= on > >>> protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates entirely, packet > loss > >>> due to output packet congestion within the network, but it can > only > >>> be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the source to a > >>> maximum packet size and transmission rate. Note that congestion > >>> protection provided via congestion detection and notification is > >>> explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, as it serves a > >>> different set of applications. > >>> At least the last sentence would contradict a better discussion of > >>> congestion in the document. For instance, it could just be removed. > >>> In any case, the current wording in the last sentence is not correct, > >>> as the IETF term for what is described in the last sentence is > >>> "congestion control". > >>> > >>> Another example would be Section 3.2.1.1. "Eliminate congestion loss= " > >>> The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS assurances > >>> is to > >>> reduce, or even completely eliminate, congestion within a DetNet > >>> node > >>> as a cause of packet loss. This can be achieved only by the > >>> provision of sufficient buffer storage at each node through the > >>> network to ensure that no packets are dropped due to a lack of > >>> buffer > >>> storage. Note that a DetNet flow cannot be throttled, i.e., its > >>> transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion > >>> notification. > >>> > >>> This section IMHO has to include a discussion of what happens in the > >>> (not expected) case that packets get dropped or that ECN marks are > >>> received. It is understood that this would not happen in normal > >>> operation of a DetNet network, but I believe just considering the > >>> error-free operation of a DetNet network is not sufficient for this > >>> document. At least for the risk of traffic that may escape from a > >>> DetNet network is inherently not sufficient to assume that the DetNet > >>> network is always error-free. > >> I think these are examples of text that needs to be cleanup up and to > >> delineate what is done with a DetNet. > >> > >> > >>> As a result, addressing my concerns will most likely require editing > >>> several parts of the document. > >>> > >>> In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review comment "It is > >>> surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network robustness > >>> and safety" > >> I have no idea what you mean by safety here. Can you elaborate. > >> > >> > >>> covers more than just inelastic traffic that escapes from a DetNet > >>> network and masking of packet loss. Given that DetNet traffic may be > >>> extremely critical traffic, I really wonder why the document doesn't > >>> emphasize more the required robustness against failures *inside* the > >>> DetNet network as well as counter-measures. But this is something the > >>> WG needs to decide. As TSV-ART reviewer, I will be fine if the > >>> document clearly describes how the impact of failures will be > >>> isolated inside the DetNet network and will not put the general > >>> Internet at risk. > >> I agree - I think, the document should be clear on it's scope and > >> relationship to general internet usage. > >> > >> > >>>> (b) The use of the term 'transport' in DetNet to refer to what is > >>>> basically a Traffic Engineered sub-network layer, such as is provide= d > >>>> with MPLS-TE or Optical Transport Networks. > >>> In the Internet architecture, the term 'transport' refers to Internet > >>> transport protocols. I doubt that the document can avoid discussing > >>> the implications of and interactions with Internet transport > >>> protocols such as UDP or TCP. As a result, I disagree that the > >>> document can use the term 'transport' to refer to traffic engineered > >>> sub-network layers. > >> I think this is covered by my comment above. > >> > >> > >>> From a TSV-ART point of view, the document can either only use the > >>> term "transport" for Internet transport protocols and use another > >>> term for sub-network layers (as handled in the *routing* area of the > >>> IETF), or the document has to clearly distinguish between the > >>> Internet transport layer and other uses of the term "transport" and > >>> explain the overlap. I believe the former would be less confusing, > >>> but I will leave it up to the TSV ADs to discuss terminology overlap > >>> in the IESG. As TSV-ART reviewer I insist that the document uses the > >>> terms "transport layer" and "transport protocol" only when referring > >>> to the Internet transport layer. > >> I'm personally okay with a name change and even willing to push this > >> discussion within the WG, but as said above, "Transport Network" is a > >> generally understood industry term that is also used in RFCs -- so > >> we'll have to see what where WG consensus ends up. > >> > >>>> Do you have any other issues that that are critical to be addressed > >>>> before this work moves forward? If so which? > >>> Regarding Section 4.4 I have already deferred the discussion to the > >>> IESG. The TSV-ART review comment is that the IESG needs to carefully > >>> look at the concepts, terminology, and references in section 4.4. > >>> > >>> Regarding my other comments, I acknowledge that -09 is a step > >>> forward. But given the cross-dependencies e.g. regarding terminology > >>> and definitions, I will need to read the text completely once there > >>> is a proposal how to address my review. As noted in my review, I > >>> believe the document must use terminology clearly and consistently. > >>> As example, a statement in -09 such as "Network nodes supporting > >>> DetNet flows have to implement some of the DetNet capabilities (not > >>> necessarily all) in order to treat DetNet flows such that their QoS > >>> requirements are met" is IMHO too vague. But in such cases it depends > >>> whether there is precise normative guidance elsewhere. And this > >>> requires looking at the text as a whole. > >> I think the next steps lie with me and the WG. We'll let you know > >> once there is a new version. Of course, you can also contribute to > >> the WG discussion on the topic. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Lou > >> > >>> Best regards > >>> > >>> Michael > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> Thank you, > >>>> > >>>> Lou > >>>> > >>>> On 9/28/2018 6:24 PM, Michael Scharf wrote: > >>>>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf > >>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues > >>>>> > >>>>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" > >>>>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall framework fo= r > >>>>> Deterministic Networking. > >>>>> > >>>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has issues as > >>>> detailed below. > >>>>> Michael > >>>>> > >>>>> Major issues: > >>>>> > >>>>> * It seems that DetNet cannot easily be deployed in the Internet > >>>> without > >>>>> additional means. Thus, for a baseline document, one could expect > >>>> some > >>>>> explanation on the requirements of deploying DetNet in a network. > >>>> DetNet > >>>>> basically requires support in (almost) all network devices > >>>> transporting DetNet > >>>>> traffic. That assumption should be explicitly spelt out early in th= e > >>>> document, > >>>>> e.g., in the introduction. There also needs to be an explicit > >>>> discussion of the > >>>>> implications if not the whole network is aware of or supports DetNe= t. > >>>> There is > >>>>> some text in Section 4.2.2 and Section 4.3.3, but I believe > >>>> additional explicit > >>>>> discussion is needed at a prominant place. For instance, can use of > >>>> DetNet do > >>>>> harm to parts of a network not supporting DetNet? As a side note, > >>>> when TCPM > >>>>> published RFC 8257, the following disclaimer was added: "DCTCP, as > >>>> described in > >>>>> this specification, is applicable to deployments in controlled > >>>> environments > >>>>> like data centers, but it must not be deployed over the public > >>>> Internet without > >>>>> additional measures." I wonder if a similar disclaimer is needed fo= r > >>>> DetNet. If > >>>>> there is an implicit assumption that DetNet will be used in > >>>> homogenous > >>>>> environments with mostly DetNet-aware devices within the same > >>>> organization, > >>>>> such an assumption should be made explicit. > >>>>> > >>>>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network > >>>> robustness > >>>>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For instance, > >>>>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet replicati= on > >>>> could > >>>>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. How does t= he > >>>> DetNet > >>>>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operational e.g. if > >>>> the topology > >>>>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this can be solve= d > >>>> by > >>>>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why are > >>>> corresponding > >>>>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that filters a= nd > >>>> policers > >>>>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably still assumes > >>>> consistently > >>>>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And Section > >>>> 3.3.2 is > >>>>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible failures" withou= t > >>>> stating > >>>>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further solutions= , > >>>> such as > >>>>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not discussed? > >>>>> > >>>>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of failures t= o > >>>> the QoS of > >>>>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to protect non- > >>>> DetNet parts > >>>>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. Solutions t= o > >>>> this > >>>>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet traffic (e.g., = in > >>>> case of > >>>>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not discussed at > >>>> all in the > >>>>> document? > >>>>> > >>>>> * Regarding security, an architecture like DetNet probably requires > >>>> that only > >>>>> authenticated and authorized end systems have access to the data > >>>> plane. The > >>>>> security considerations only briefly mention the control aspect ("t= he > >>>>> authentication and authorization of the controlling systems"). > >>>>> > >>>>> * For an architecture document, the lack of clarity and consistency > >>>> regarding > >>>>> terminology is concerning. This specifically applies to the case of > >>>> incomplete > >>>>> networks (as per Section 4.2.2 and 4.3.3) that include "DetNet- > >>>> unaware nodes". > >>>>> The document introduces terms such as "DetNet intermediate nodes" b= ut > >>>> then > >>>>> repeatedly uses generic terms such as "node" or "hop" that may > >>>> include > >>>>> DetNet-unaware nodes. For instance, for incomplete networks, a > >>>> sentence such as > >>>>> "The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS assurances is t= o > >>>> reduce, or > >>>>> even completely eliminate, congestion within a node as a cause of > >>>> packet loss" > >>>>> seems to only apply to "DetNet transit nodes" but not "DetNet-unawa= re > >>>> nodes". > >>>>> Similar ambiguity exist for other use of the terms "hop" and "node"= , > >>>> which may > >>>>> or may not include DetNet-unaware nodes. It is unclear why the > >>>> document does > >>>>> not consistently use the terminology introduced in Section 2.1 in a= ll > >>>> sections > >>>>> and clearly distinguishes cases with and without DetNet support. > >>>>> > >>>>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informational RFC on > >>>> IRTF stream, > >>>>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e.g., "planes"= ). > >>>> This is > >>>>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should probably > >>>> refer to > >>>>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC 7491, albe= it > >>>> there is > >>>>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, Section 4= .4 > >>>> is by and > >>>>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not specific to > >>>> DetNet. > >>>>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the concepts > >>>> introduced in > >>>>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet terminology or > >>>> discuss > >>>>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions explicitly at th= e > >>>> end that > >>>>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet architecture= . > >>>> It is not > >>>>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section 4.4 could > >>>> be removed > >>>>> from the document without impacting the rest of the document. > >>>>> > >>>>> Minor issues: > >>>>> > >>>>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" > >>>>> > >>>>> The term "transport layer" has a well-defined meaning in the > IETF, > >>>> e.g. > >>>>> originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" and e.g. "transpo= rt > >>>> network" is > >>>>> used in the IETF for different technologies in different areas= , > I > >>>> think the > >>>>> term "transport layer" is typically understood to refer to > >>>> transport > >>>>> protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I personally find the > term > >>>> "DetNet > >>>>> transport layer" misleading and confusing. The confusion is ea= sy > >>>> to see e.g. > >>>>> in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport protocol as per R= FC > >>>> 1122) sits > >>>>> on top of "transport". > >>>>> > >>>>> Based on the document it also may be solution/implementation > >>>> specific whether > >>>>> the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate protocol > layer > >>>> compared > >>>>> to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear to me why > the > >>>> word > >>>>> "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination "transport > >>>> layer". > >>>>> To me as, the word "transport layer" (and "transport protocol"= ) > >>>> should be > >>>>> used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent with RFC > 1122. > >>>> But this is > >>>>> probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. > >>>>> > >>>>> * Page 9 > >>>>> > >>>>> A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation > >>>> and/or > >>>>> scheduling, > >>>>> > >>>>> This is just one of several examples for inconsistent use of > >>>> terminology. > >>>>> What is a "DetNet node"? That term is not introduced in Sectio= n > >>>> 2.1 > >>>>> * Page 14 > >>>>> > >>>>> A DetNet network supports the dedication of a high proportion > >>>> (e.g. > >>>>> 75%) of the network bandwidth to DetNet flows. > >>>>> > >>>>> The 75% value is not reasoned. What prevents using 99% of the > >>>> bandwidth for > >>>>> DetNet traffic? > >>>>> > >>>>> * Page 15: Figure 2 > >>>>> > >>>>> If the term "transport layer" cannot be avoided, the labels in > >>>> this figure > >>>>> should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport layer". > >>>>> > >>>>> * Page 18: Figure 4 > >>>>> > >>>>> As already mentioned earlier, Figure 4 is confusing. UDP is a > >>>> transport > >>>>> protocol. If the term "transport" cannot be avoided, the label= s > in > >>>> this > >>>>> figure should at least be expanded to "DetNet transport". > >>>>> > >>>>> * Page 23 > >>>>> > >>>>> If the source transmits less data than this limit > >>>>> allows, the unused resource such as link bandwidth can be mad= e > >>>>> available by the system to non-DetNet packets. > >>>>> > >>>>> Could there be additional requirements on the use of unused > >>>> resources by > >>>>> non-DetNet packets, e.g., regarding preemption? I am just > >>>> wondering... If > >>>>> that was possible, a statement like "... can be made available > by > >>>> the system > >>>>> to non-DetNet packets as long as all guarantees are fulfilled" > >>>> would be on > >>>>> the safe side, no? > >>>>> > >>>>> * Page 27: > >>>>> > >>>>> DetNet achieves congestion protection and bounded delivery > >>>> latency by > >>>>> reserving bandwidth and buffer resources at every hop along t= he > >>>> path > >>>>> of the DetNet flow. > >>>>> > >>>>> Why does this sentence use the word "hop"? As far as I > understand, > >>>> in DetNet > >>>>> bandwidth and buffer resources are reserved in each DetNet > >>>> intermediate node. > >>>>> If there were hops over IP routers not being DetNet intermedia= te > >>>> nodes, no > >>>>> resources would be reserved there. As per Section 4.3.3, it is > >>>> possible to > >>>>> deploy DetNet this way. And obviously there can be resource > >>>> bottlenecks below > >>>>> IP, on devices that are not routers... So does "hop" here refe= r > to > >>>> IP router > >>>>> hops or also to devices not processing IP (or IP/MPLS)? > >>>>> > >>>>> * Page 27: > >>>>> > >>>>> Standard queuing and transmission selection algorithms allow = a > >>>>> central controller to compute the latency contribution of eac= h > >>>>> transit node to the end-to-end latency, ... > >>>>> > >>>>> The text does not explain why a _central_ controller is needed > for > >>>> this > >>>>> computation. Why would a distributed control plane not be able > to > >>>> realize > >>>>> this computation. Isn't this implementation-specific? > >>>>> > >>>>> * Page 32 > >>>>> > >>>>> To somebody who is not deeply familiar with DetNet, it is > >>>> impossible to parse > >>>>> the description of the examples in Section 4.7.3. For instance= , > >>>> "VID + > >>>>> multicast MAC address" is not introduced. I think this example > >>>> must be > >>>>> expaned with additional context and explanation to be useful t= o > >>>> readers. > >>>>> * Page 34 > >>>>> > >>>>> There are three classes of information that a central > controller > >>>> or > >>>>> distributed control plane needs to know that can only be > obtained > >>>>> from the end systems and/or nodes in the network. > >>>>> > >>>>> Wouldn't it be sufficient to state "Provisioning of DetNet > >>>> requires knowledge > >>>>> about ...". Does it matter in this context whether the > >>>> provisioning is done > >>>>> by a central controller or a distributed control plane? For > >>>> instance, could > >>>>> the same paragraph also apply to a network that uses _multiple= _ > >>>> central > >>>>> controllers, or hybrid combinations of central controllers and > >>>> distributed > >>>>> control planes? In general, an architecture document should be > >>>> agnostic to > >>>>> implementation aspects unless there is a specific need. In thi= s > >>>> specific > >>>>> case, I fail to see a need to discuss the realization of the > >>>> control plane of > >>>>> a network. > >>>>> > >>>>> Editorial nits: > >>>>> > >>>>> * Page 9: > >>>>> > >>>>> The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 provide the > >>>>> necessary regulation of transmissions by an end system or > >>>>> intermediate node to provide congestion protection. The > >>>> allocation > >>>>> of the bandwidth and buffers for a DetNet flow requires > >>>> provisioning > >>>>> A DetNet node may have other resources requiring allocation > >>>> and/or > >>>>> scheduling, that might otherwise be over-subscribed and trigg= er > >>>> the > >>>>> rejection of a reservation. > >>>>> > >>>>> Probably a full stop is missing after "provisioning". > >>>>> > >>>>> * Page 11: "... along separate (disjoint non-SRLG) paths ..." > >>>>> > >>>>> I find this confusing. I would understand e.g. "along separate > >>>>> (SRLG-disjoint) paths". > >>>>> > >>>>> * Page 34: > >>>>> > >>>>> When using a peer- > >>>>> to-peer control plane, some of this information may be requir= ed > >>>> by a > >>>>> system's neighbors in the network. > >>>>> > >>>>> Would "acquired" be a better term? > >>>>> > >>>>> * Page 34: > >>>>> > >>>>> o The identity of the system's neighbors, and the > >>>> characteristics of > >>>>> the link(s) between the systems, including the length (in > >>>>> nanoseconds) of the link(s). > >>>>> > >>>>> "Latency" or "delay" would probably be a better terms if the > value > >>>> is > >>>>> measured in nanoseconds. > >>>>> > >>>>> * Page 35: > >>>>> > >>>>> DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, > does > >>>> not > >>>>> directly raise any new privacy considerations. > >>>>> > >>>>> Broken sentence > >>>>> > >>>>> * Please expand acronyms on first use (e.g., OTN) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> detnet mailing list > >>> detnet@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --000000000000822536057ced45a6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lou,

I think of "Resource manageme= nt" as a superset of "Resource allocation", and so prefer &q= uot;Resource management". That said, I can live with "Resource al= location" if that comes out as the consensus.

=
Cheers,
Andy


On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 1:23 PM Lou Berger <<= a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net> wrote:
All,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I met with the authors of detnet-architecture to s= ee if we could
come up with a a single proposal.=C2=A0 The discussion led to three
candidates (see below for ordered list).=C2=A0 In the interest of closing o= n
this topic, I'd like to ask if there are *objections* to changing the <= br> term "Congestion protection" to "Resource allocation".= =C2=A0 Looking at the
related, first use, text in Section 3.2.1 this change would read
something like:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Three techniques are used by DetNet to provide these qua= lities of
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 service:
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Resource allocation (Section 3.2.1).
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Service protection (Section 3.2.2).
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Explicit routes (Section 3.2.3).

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Resource allocation operates by assigning resources, e.g= ., buffer
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 space or link bandwidth, to a DetNet flow (or flow aggre= gate) along
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 its path.=C2=A0 Resource allocation greatly reduces, or = even eliminates
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 entirely, packet loss due to output packet contention wi= thin the
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 network, but it can only be supplied to a DetNet flow th= at is limited
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 at the source to a maximum packet size and transmission = rate. Note
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that congestion control provided via congestion detectio= n and
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 notification [RFC3168] is explicitly excluded from consi= deration in
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DetNet, as it serves a different set of applications.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Resource allocation addresses two of the DetNet QoS requ= irements:
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 latency and packet loss.=C2=A0 Given that DetNet nodes h= ave a finite
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 amount of buffer space, Resource allocation necessarily = results in
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a maximum end-to-end latency.=C2=A0 It also addresses co= ntention related
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 packet loss.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Other important contribution to packet loss are random m= edia errors
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 and equipment failures...

Please respond, if you think this change (to 'resource allocation')= is:
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (a) acceptable/something you can live with
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (b) unacceptable/something you think should not be= part of the
DetNet architecture

(Note: please wait for the author to revise the actual text above based on the outcome of this thread before providing edits.)

Thank you,
Lou
(as co-chair and shepherd)

The top three alternatives at the end of the meeting, in order were:
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1. Resource allocation
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2. Resource management
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3. Contention management

On 12/10/2018 9:29 AM, J=C3=A1nos Farkas wrote:
> Hi,
>
> As I understand, there is confusion around two DetNet terms.
> We are removing "transport".
>
> The other one is "congestion" and "congestion protectio= n".
>
> Brief description of congestion protection in Section 3.1:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Congestion protection operates by allocating = resources along the path
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link = bandwidth. Congestion
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 protection greatly reduces, or even eliminate= s entirely, packet loss
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 due to output packet congestion within the ne= twork, but it can only
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited = at the source to a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 maximum packet size and transmission rate.=C2= =A0 Note that congestion
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 protection provided via congestion detection = and notification is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 explicitly excluded from consideration in Det= Net, as it serves a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 different set of applications.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Congestion protection addresses two of the De= tNet QoS requirements:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 latency and packet loss.=C2=A0 Given that Det= Net nodes have a finite
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 amount of buffer space, congestion protection= necessarily results in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a maximum end-to-end latency.=C2=A0 It also a= ddresses the largest
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 contribution to packet loss, which is buffer = congestion.
>
> Detailed description is in Section 3.2.1.
>
> We wanted to have a brief collective term for the mechanisms used to > avoid queuing related packet loss (including buffer overflow etc.). >
> Based on the discussions, we should have a term that does not include<= br> > "congestion".
> ("Service Protection" is another DetNet term, hence we may c= onsider a
> term without "protection" to minimize confusion.)
>
> I suggest to replace "congestion protection" with "queu= ing loss avoidance".
>
> After agreeing in the terminology cahnge (if any), the text has to be<= br> > updated accordingly.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Best regards,
> Janos
>
>
> On 11/20/2018 1:11 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
>> Michael,
>>
>> I think we're getting somewhere and identifying where we have<= br> >> disconnects and what may (and what may not) need to change in the<= br> >> document.=C2=A0 My takeaways are:
>>
>> - The document needs a good 'scrub' of the congestion rela= ted
>> references to ensure that the document only makes statements on wh= at
>> is actually done within a DetNet and the relationship with transpo= rt
>> protocols that use detnet (which are in fact outside the scope of = the
>> DetNet WG).=C2=A0 I'll work with the authors and WG on this --= I see this
>> change as important, but editorial in nature.
>>
>> - We have a perception issue with at least one member of the TSV a= rea
>> on the meaning and more importantly, implication, of the term &quo= t;DetNet
>> *Transport* sub-layer".=C2=A0 While I don't disagree that= a good portion of
>> the IETF thinks transport protocol (UDP/TCP) when they hear
>> "transport" there are plenty others, particularly in the= routing area,
>> who understand that "transport" can refer to Transport N= etworks.=C2=A0 And
>> Transport Network is a well understood general industry term. The = IETF
>> even has a bunch of RFCs that relate to Transport networks.=C2=A0 = This
>> said, I think it reasonable to go back to the DetNet WG and discus= s
>> changing the name of the "DetNet Transport sub-layer"=C2= =A0 to avoid the
>> word "transport".=C2=A0 -- BTW we made a parallel change= in the TEAS WG
>> when producing RFC8453.
>>
>> See below for detail response in-line.
>>
>> On 11/19/2018 5:15 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote:
>>> Lou,
>>>
>>>> --
>>>> I wanted to take a step back from the multiple discussions= that were
>>>> spawned by your review -- from a doc shepherd perspective,= and see
>>>> where
>>>> we are.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I know that the authors have sent a -0= 9 version that
>>>> addresses
>>>> some, but not all issues.
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 From the exchanges I've seen, I think the= key remaining issues are
>>>> related to:
>>>>
>>>> (a) possibly introduction of congestion in the general int= ernet if
>>>> packets were somehow to escape a detnet domain.=C2=A0 The = source of this
>>>> congestion would be inelastic traffic using DetNet or due = to congestion
>>>> loss that is masked by PREOF.
>>> These are two major issues that need to be addressed. Note tha= t it
>>> may not be sufficient just to add a section on operational and=
>>> deployment considerations. Also the existing text in the docum= ent
>>> will need to get aligned to normative guidance on how to avoid= a
>>> congestion collapse.
>>>
>>> In -09, one example would be Section 3.1. "Primary goals = defining the
>>> DetNet QoS"
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Congestion protection operates by all= ocating resources along the
>>> path
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space = or link bandwidth. Congestion
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 protection greatly reduces, or even e= liminates entirely, packet loss
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 due to output packet congestion withi= n the network, but it can only
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 be supplied to a DetNet flow that is = limited at the source to a
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 maximum packet size and transmission = rate.=C2=A0 Note that congestion
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 protection provided via congestion de= tection and notification is
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 explicitly excluded from consideratio= n in DetNet, as it serves a
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 different set of applications.
>>> At least the last sentence would contradict a better discussio= n of
>>> congestion in the document. For instance, it could just be rem= oved.
>>> In any case, the current wording in the last sentence is not c= orrect,
>>> as the IETF term for what is described in the last sentence is=
>>> "congestion control".
>>>
>>> Another example would be=C2=A0 Section 3.2.1.1. "Eliminat= e congestion loss"
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The primary means by which Det= Net achieves its QoS assurances
>>> is to
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 reduce, or even completely eliminate,= congestion within a DetNet
>>> node
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 as a cause of packet loss.=C2=A0 This= can be achieved only by the
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 provision of sufficient buffer storag= e at each node through the
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 network to ensure that no packets are= dropped due to a lack of
>>> buffer
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 storage.=C2=A0 Note that a DetNet flo= w cannot be throttled, i.e., its
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 transmission rate cannot be reduced v= ia explicit congestion
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 notification.
>>>
>>> This section IMHO has to include a discussion of what happens = in the
>>> (not expected) case that packets get dropped or that ECN marks= are
>>> received. It is understood that this would not happen in norma= l
>>> operation of a DetNet network, but I believe just considering = the
>>> error-free operation of a DetNet network is not sufficient for= this
>>> document. At least for the risk of traffic that may escape fro= m a
>>> DetNet network is inherently not sufficient to assume that the= DetNet
>>> network is always error-free.
>> I think these are examples of text that needs to be cleanup up and= to
>> delineate what is done with a DetNet.
>>
>>
>>> As a result, addressing my concerns will most likely require e= diting
>>> several parts of the document.
>>>
>>> In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review comment = "It is
>>> surprising that there is hardly any discussion on network robu= stness
>>> and safety"
>> I have no idea what you mean by safety here.=C2=A0 Can you elabora= te.
>>
>>
>>> covers more than just inelastic traffic that escapes from a De= tNet
>>> network and masking of packet loss. Given that DetNet traffic = may be
>>> extremely critical traffic, I really wonder why the document d= oesn't
>>> emphasize more the required robustness against failures *insid= e* the
>>> DetNet network as well as counter-measures. But this is someth= ing the
>>> WG needs to decide. As TSV-ART reviewer, I will be fine if the=
>>> document clearly describes how the impact of failures will be<= br> >>> isolated inside the DetNet network and will not put the genera= l
>>> Internet at risk.
>> I agree - I think, the document should be clear on it's scope = and
>> relationship to general internet usage.
>>
>>
>>>> (b) The use of the term 'transport' in DetNet to r= efer to what is
>>>> basically a Traffic Engineered sub-network layer, such as = is provided
>>>> with MPLS-TE or Optical Transport Networks.
>>> In the Internet architecture, the term 'transport' ref= ers to Internet
>>> transport protocols. I doubt that the document can avoid discu= ssing
>>> the implications of and interactions with Internet transport >>> protocols such as UDP or TCP. As a result, I disagree that the=
>>> document can use the term 'transport' to refer to traf= fic engineered
>>> sub-network layers.
>> I think this is covered by my comment above.
>>
>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0From a TSV-ART point of view, the document can eit= her only use the
>>> term "transport" for Internet transport protocols an= d use another
>>> term for sub-network layers (as handled in the *routing* area = of the
>>> IETF), or the document has to clearly distinguish between the<= br> >>> Internet transport layer and other uses of the term "tran= sport" and
>>> explain the overlap. I believe the former would be less confus= ing,
>>> but I will leave it up to the TSV ADs to discuss terminology o= verlap
>>> in the IESG. As TSV-ART reviewer I insist that the document us= es the
>>> terms "transport layer" and "transport protocol= " only when referring
>>> to the Internet transport layer.
>> I'm personally okay with a name change and even willing to pus= h this
>> discussion within the WG, but as said above, "Transport Netwo= rk" is a
>> generally understood industry term that is also used in RFCs -- so=
>> we'll have to see what where WG consensus ends up.
>>
>>>> Do you have any other issues that that are critical to be = addressed
>>>> before this work moves forward?=C2=A0 If so which?
>>> Regarding Section 4.4 I have already deferred the discussion t= o the
>>> IESG. The TSV-ART review comment is that the IESG needs to car= efully
>>> look at the concepts, terminology, and references in section 4= .4.
>>>
>>> Regarding my other comments, I acknowledge that -09 is a step<= br> >>> forward. But given the cross-dependencies e.g. regarding termi= nology
>>> and definitions, I will need to read the text completely once = there
>>> is a proposal how to address my review. As noted in my review,= I
>>> believe the document must use terminology clearly and consiste= ntly.
>>> As example, a statement in -09 such as "Network nodes sup= porting
>>> DetNet flows have to implement some of the DetNet capabilities= (not
>>> necessarily all) in order to treat DetNet flows such that thei= r QoS
>>> requirements are met" is IMHO too vague. But in such case= s it depends
>>> whether there is precise normative guidance elsewhere. And thi= s
>>> requires looking at the text as a whole.
>> I think the next steps lie with me and the WG.=C2=A0 We'll let= you know
>> once there is a new version.=C2=A0 Of course, you can also contrib= ute to
>> the WG discussion on the topic.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Lou
>>
>>> Best regards
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>> On 9/28/2018 6:24 PM, Michael Scharf wrote:
>>>>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf
>>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues
>>>>>
>>>>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architectu= re"
>>>>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall= framework for
>>>>> Deterministic Networking.
>>>>>
>>>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has = issues as
>>>> detailed below.
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>> Major issues:
>>>>>
>>>>> * It seems that DetNet cannot easily be deployed in th= e Internet
>>>> without
>>>>> additional means. Thus, for a baseline document, one c= ould expect
>>>> some
>>>>> explanation on the requirements of deploying DetNet in= a network.
>>>> DetNet
>>>>> basically requires support in (almost) all network dev= ices
>>>> transporting DetNet
>>>>> traffic. That assumption should be explicitly spelt ou= t early in the
>>>> document,
>>>>> e.g., in the introduction. There also needs to be an e= xplicit
>>>> discussion of the
>>>>> implications if not the whole network is aware of or s= upports DetNet.
>>>> There is
>>>>> some text in Section 4.2.2 and Section 4.3.3, but I be= lieve
>>>> additional explicit
>>>>> discussion is needed at a prominant place. For instanc= e, can use of
>>>> DetNet do
>>>>> harm to parts of a network not supporting DetNet? As a= side note,
>>>> when TCPM
>>>>> published RFC 8257, the following disclaimer was added= : "DCTCP, as
>>>> described in
>>>>> this specification, is applicable to deployments in co= ntrolled
>>>> environments
>>>>> like data centers, but it must not be deployed over th= e public
>>>> Internet without
>>>>> additional measures." I wonder if a similar discl= aimer is needed for
>>>> DetNet. If
>>>>> there is an implicit assumption that DetNet will=C2=A0= be used in
>>>> homogenous
>>>>> environments with mostly DetNet-aware devices within t= he same
>>>> organization,
>>>>> such an assumption should be made explicit.
>>>>>
>>>>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion= on network
>>>> robustness
>>>>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. Fo= r instance,
>>>>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing pac= ket replication
>>>> could
>>>>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause har= m. How does the
>>>> DetNet
>>>>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully operati= onal e.g. if
>>>> the topology
>>>>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably this= can be solved
>>>> by
>>>>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but why= are
>>>> corresponding
>>>>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates t= hat filters and
>>>> policers
>>>>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably stil= l assumes
>>>> consistently
>>>>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. = And Section
>>>> 3.3.2 is
>>>>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possibl= e failures" without
>>>> stating
>>>>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be furt= her solutions,
>>>> such as
>>>>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not= discussed?
>>>>>
>>>>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact = of failures to
>>>> the QoS of
>>>>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to= protect non-
>>>> DetNet parts
>>>>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms= . Solutions to
>>>> this
>>>>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet tr= affic (e.g., in
>>>> case of
>>>>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not = discussed at
>>>> all in the
>>>>> document?
>>>>>
>>>>> * Regarding security, an architecture like DetNet prob= ably requires
>>>> that only
>>>>> authenticated and authorized end systems have access t= o the data
>>>> plane. The
>>>>> security considerations only briefly mention the contr= ol aspect ("the
>>>>> authentication and authorization of the controlling sy= stems").
>>>>>
>>>>> * For an architecture document, the lack of clarity an= d consistency
>>>> regarding
>>>>> terminology is concerning. This specifically applies t= o the case of
>>>> incomplete
>>>>> networks (as per Section 4.2.2 and 4.3.3) that include= "DetNet-
>>>> unaware nodes".
>>>>> The document introduces terms such as "DetNet int= ermediate nodes" but
>>>> then
>>>>> repeatedly uses generic terms such as "node"= or "hop" that may
>>>> include
>>>>> DetNet-unaware nodes. For instance, for incomplete net= works, a
>>>> sentence such as
>>>>> "The primary means by which DetNet achieves its Q= oS assurances is to
>>>> reduce, or
>>>>> even completely eliminate, congestion within a node as= a cause of
>>>> packet loss"
>>>>> seems to only apply to "DetNet transit nodes"= ; but not "DetNet-unaware
>>>> nodes".
>>>>> Similar ambiguity exist for other use of the terms &qu= ot;hop" and "node",
>>>> which may
>>>>> or may not include DetNet-unaware nodes. It is unclear= why the
>>>> document does
>>>>> not consistently use the terminology introduced in Sec= tion 2.1 in all
>>>> sections
>>>>> and clearly distinguishes cases with and without DetNe= t support.
>>>>>
>>>>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an informat= ional RFC on
>>>> IRTF stream,
>>>>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there (e= .g., "planes").
>>>> This is
>>>>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard shoul= d probably
>>>> refer to
>>>>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be R= FC 7491, albeit
>>>> there is
>>>>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Seco= nd, Section 4.4
>>>> is by and
>>>>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not = specific to
>>>> DetNet.
>>>>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to the= concepts
>>>> introduced in
>>>>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet termi= nology or
>>>> discuss
>>>>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions exp= licitly at the
>>>> end that
>>>>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet= architecture.
>>>> It is not
>>>>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Sect= ion 4.4 could
>>>> be removed
>>>>> from the document without impacting the rest of the do= cument.
>>>>>
>>>>> Minor issues:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer"
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The term "transport laye= r" has a well-defined meaning in the IETF,
>>>> e.g.
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 originating from RFC 1122. Wh= ile "transport" and e.g. "transport
>>>> network" is
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 used in the IETF for differen= t technologies in different areas, I
>>>> think the
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 term "transport layer&qu= ot; is typically understood to refer to
>>>> transport
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 protocols such as TCP and UDP= . As such, I personally find the term
>>>> "DetNet
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 transport layer" mislead= ing and confusing. The confusion is easy
>>>> to see e.g.
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 in Figure 4, where UDP (which= is a transport protocol as per RFC
>>>> 1122) sits
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 on top of "transport&quo= t;.
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Based on the document it also= may be solution/implementation
>>>> specific whether
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the "DetNet transport la= yer" is actually a separate protocol layer
>>>> compared
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 to the "DetNet service l= ayer". Thus it is not clear to me why the
>>>> word
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "layer" has to be u= sed, specifically in combination "transport
>>>> layer".
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To me as, the word "tran= sport layer" (and "transport protocol")
>>>> should be
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 used for protocols defined in= TSV area, consistent with RFC 1122.
>>>> But this is
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 probably a question to be sor= ted out by the IESG.
>>>>>
>>>>> * Page 9
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A DetNet node may have = other resources requiring allocation
>>>> and/or
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 scheduling,
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This is just one of several e= xamples for inconsistent use of
>>>> terminology.
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 What is a "DetNet node&q= uot;? That term is not introduced in Section
>>>> 2.1
>>>>> * Page 14
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A DetNet network suppor= ts the dedication of a high proportion
>>>> (e.g.
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 75%) of the network ban= dwidth to DetNet flows.
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The 75% value is not reasoned= . What prevents using 99% of the
>>>> bandwidth for
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DetNet traffic?
>>>>>
>>>>> * Page 15: Figure 2
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If the term "transport l= ayer" cannot be avoided, the labels in
>>>> this figure
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 should at least be expanded t= o "DetNet transport layer".
>>>>>
>>>>> * Page 18: Figure 4
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 As already mentioned earlier,= Figure 4 is confusing. UDP is a
>>>> transport
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 protocol. If the term "t= ransport" cannot be avoided, the labels in
>>>> this
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 figure should at least be exp= anded to "DetNet transport".
>>>>>
>>>>> * Page 23
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If the source transmits= less data than this limit
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 allows, the unused reso= urce such as link bandwidth can be made
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 available by the system= to non-DetNet packets.
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Could there be additional req= uirements on the use of unused
>>>> resources by
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 non-DetNet packets, e.g., reg= arding preemption? I am just
>>>> wondering... If
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that was possible, a statemen= t like "... can be made available by
>>>> the system
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 to non-DetNet packets as long= as all guarantees are fulfilled"
>>>> would be on
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the safe side, no?
>>>>>
>>>>> * Page 27:
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DetNet achieves congest= ion protection and bounded delivery
>>>> latency by
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 reserving bandwidth and= buffer resources at every hop along the
>>>> path
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 of the DetNet flow.
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Why does this sentence use th= e word "hop"? As far as I understand,
>>>> in DetNet
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 bandwidth and buffer resource= s are reserved in each DetNet
>>>> intermediate node.
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If there were hops over IP ro= uters not being DetNet intermediate
>>>> nodes, no
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 resources would be reserved t= here. As per Section 4.3.3, it is
>>>> possible to
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 deploy DetNet this way. And o= bviously there can be resource
>>>> bottlenecks below
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IP, on devices that are not r= outers... So does "hop" here refer to
>>>> IP router
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 hops or also to devices not p= rocessing IP (or IP/MPLS)?
>>>>>
>>>>> * Page 27:
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Standard queuing and tr= ansmission selection algorithms allow a
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 central controller to c= ompute the latency contribution of each
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 transit node to the end= -to-end latency, ...
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The text does not explain why= a _central_ controller is needed for
>>>> this
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 computation. Why would a dist= ributed control plane not be able to
>>>> realize
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 this computation. Isn't t= his implementation-specific?
>>>>>
>>>>> * Page 32
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To somebody who is not deeply= familiar with DetNet, it is
>>>> impossible to parse
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the description of the exampl= es in Section 4.7.3. For instance,
>>>> "VID +
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 multicast MAC address" i= s not introduced. I think this example
>>>> must be
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 expaned with additional conte= xt and explanation to be useful to
>>>> readers.
>>>>> * Page 34
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There are three classes= of information that a central controller
>>>> or
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 distributed control pla= ne needs to know that can only be obtained
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 from the end systems an= d/or nodes in the network.
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Wouldn't it be sufficient= to state "Provisioning of DetNet
>>>> requires knowledge
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 about ...". Does it matt= er in this context whether the
>>>> provisioning is done
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by a central controller or a = distributed control plane? For
>>>> instance, could
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the same paragraph also apply= to a network that uses _multiple_
>>>> central
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 controllers, or hybrid combin= ations of central controllers and
>>>> distributed
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 control planes? In general, a= n architecture document should be
>>>> agnostic to
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 implementation aspects unless= there is a specific need. In this
>>>> specific
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 case, I fail to see a need to= discuss the realization of the
>>>> control plane of
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a network.
>>>>>
>>>>> Editorial nits:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Page 9:
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The low-level mechanism= s described in Section 4.5 provide the
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 necessary regulation of= transmissions by an end system or
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 intermediate node to pr= ovide congestion protection. The
>>>> allocation
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 of the bandwidth and bu= ffers for a DetNet flow requires
>>>> provisioning
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A DetNet node may have = other resources requiring allocation
>>>> and/or
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 scheduling, that might = otherwise be over-subscribed and trigger
>>>> the
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 rejection of a reservat= ion.
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Probably a full stop is missi= ng after "provisioning".
>>>>>
>>>>> * Page 11: "... along separate (disjoint non-SRLG= ) paths ..."
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I find this confusing. I woul= d understand e.g. "along separate
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (SRLG-disjoint) paths".<= br> >>>>>
>>>>> * Page 34:
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When using a peer-
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 to-peer control plane, = some of this information may be required
>>>> by a
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 system's neighbors = in the network.
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Would "acquired" be= a better term?
>>>>>
>>>>> * Page 34:
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 The identity of= the system's neighbors, and the
>>>> characteristics of
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the l= ink(s) between the systems, including the length (in
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 nanos= econds) of the link(s).
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Latency" or "= delay" would probably be a better terms if the value
>>>> is
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 measured in nanoseconds.
>>>>>
>>>>> * Page 35:
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DetNet is provides a Qu= ality of Service (QoS), and as such, does
>>>> not
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 directly raise any new = privacy considerations.
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Broken sentence
>>>>>
>>>>> * Please expand acronyms on first use (e.g., OTN)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> detnet mailing list
>>> detnet@ie= tf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/det= net
> _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
--000000000000822536057ced45a6-- From nobody Thu Dec 13 12:43:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3EB1130E93; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:43:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.171 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.171 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.46, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6J0as-uX6JQT; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:43:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com [67.231.152.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3FD9130E86; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:43:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0108161.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id wBDKcnwn000715; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:43:39 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : mime-version; s=PPS1017; bh=8oMrENFfBpfVG/DsgfO3ekJ9SZl/bThndJpUqhOl8/Q=; b=pSRTbeeNnZv64lfZNwBIohkOx2D8l98ZMnGcokc4oZ/yZWddv8cl2TBS5R+ws2PI2xRe maYe+HT6dieiWHM04ouFfIFljxgEaEpFBam+P3YTHYcXYJz4I42iGHA+JrIhnd8+B3aw Tkf6NaBop+vUZ0qBpPmeecAh4KrV5sazqPZmdX5q0Vz8mNTR9To6VoIty6eKO6MI63sN boEAyO+b8dzgNlOvccMuqxku1hVpEeLDM4GR1ZOsrOpIeRQR+VI8Iejd5zCKcKO1HMw2 XT7kaWCaGhFQCvoB4PlxvtFvgxO6wGMuyhhlzQ3K/8bdTH38DH0T3hRpVxo7TnB1Vl0r aQ== Received: from nam04-bn3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn3nam04lp2056.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.46.56]) by mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2pbrmx0t85-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:43:38 -0800 Received: from BYAPR05MB5029.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (20.177.230.211) by BYAPR05MB4359.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.202.140) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1425.10; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 20:43:34 +0000 Received: from BYAPR05MB5029.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::79a9:fae7:8d61:ff3e]) by BYAPR05MB5029.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::79a9:fae7:8d61:ff3e%3]) with mapi id 15.20.1425.016; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 20:43:34 +0000 From: John E Drake To: "Andrew G. Malis" , Lou Berger CC: "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org" , detnet WG , =?utf-8?B?SsOhbm9zIEZhcmthcw==?= , "Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Congestion Protection name change Thread-Index: AQHUkxDs8mKez4p840Wy2YW9ElJ6MKV9IOiAgAAB6RA= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 20:43:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <090ae5ba-e44c-f8fa-7259-5ab1b01fb23c@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.1.0.61 dlp-reaction: no-action x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.13] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BYAPR05MB4359; 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([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fzxok-sU7BfR; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:44:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82e.google.com (mail-qt1-x82e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A06EB130E95; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:43:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82e.google.com with SMTP id k12so3760735qtf.7; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:43:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Z6qDdE3HfPaTNIPdAJT2C0Xb0Vec73Q9cc8AO07I+jE=; b=WYIb82NWu58pHklobOJqAH9m78L5MJS80KTSh44BKLnjZsn1URw2Ky9wkPfgteQRGL cMsV42H+avzMkdvOWFQvMCKSUOfXSCX8zGN0Xf89wvE3hRiePeyBGcsqCtn/BgD9D39o QzYwJKFNRlkFsXSZxuPA7CBTzsv+9+4NPpaRmqwa03JRzVM+0wE3CBrObmqMc+BHIEUq 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SMTP id g62mr307586qtd.192.1544733837548; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:43:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <5164e2e0-f4ff-331c-11e0-deb080d1c520@labn.net> <3e977a3c-bd91-99d4-3d27-05488f0892ce@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <3e977a3c-bd91-99d4-3d27-05488f0892ce@labn.net> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 15:43:46 -0500 Message-ID: To: Lou Berger Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de, draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org, detnet WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a8e105057ced5fe8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 20:44:07 -0000 --000000000000a8e105057ced5fe8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Lou, Yes, but not SRv6 explicitly, as opposed to explicitly both MPLS TE LSPs and SR-MPLS. But my question was answered, so I'm good! :-) Thanks, Andy On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 3:41 PM Lou Berger wrote: > IPv6 *is* there ;-) > > On 12/13/2018 3:29 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > Lou, > > > > Thanks, that's what I thought, but I didn't see it in your list of > > DetNet Forwarding sub-layer protocols. > > > > Cheers. > > Andy > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 1:55 PM Lou Berger > > wrote: > > > > Hi Andy, > > > > As SRv6 is implemented using an IPv6 routing header the figure below > > accurately shows IPv6 (and consequently SRv6) as being part of the > > Forwarding sub-layer. > > > > In case you were really asking if use of SRv6 is in scope of > > DetNet WG, > > I don't see anything in the charter that would preclude the WG > > working > > on DetNet SRv6. > > > > Lou > > > > On 12/13/2018 1:16 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > > Lou, > > > > > > I think we've discussed this before, but I wanted to confirm > > whether > > > SRv6 is in scope for the DetNet Forwarding sub-layer. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 12:47 PM Lou Berger > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > My reading is that the WG has settled on: > > > > > > +----------------------------+ > > > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE > > > +----------------------------+ > > > | DetNet Forwarding sub-layer| IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, > > > MPLS SR > > > +----------------------------+ > > > . > > > . > > > > > > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > > > > > Authors, (of detnet-architecture) > > > Please work to have the next rev of the draft reflect this > > > change. > > > > > > Thank you to all who participated in the discussion! > > > Lou > > > (as co-chair and doc shepherd) > > > > > > On 11/20/2018 1:18 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > > > > ALL, > > > > > > > > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the > > DetNet > > > > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport > > protocols. > > > > > > > > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced > > > "Transport" > > > > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". > > > > > > > > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this > > change? > > > > > > > > To be clear, the suggestion is: > > > > > > > > OLD > > > > > > > > . > > > > . > > > > +----------------------------+ > > > > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE > > > > +----------------------------+ > > > > | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE > > LSPs, > > > MPLS SR > > > > +----------------------------+ > > > > . > > > > . > > > > > > > > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > > > > > > > NEW > > > > > > > > . > > > > . > > > > +----------------------------+ > > > > | DetNet Service sub-layer | PW, UDP, GRE > > > > +----------------------------+ > > > > | DetNet TE sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE > > LSPs, > > > MPLS SR > > > > +----------------------------+ > > > > . > > > > . > > > > > > > > Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > On 11/20/2018 11:21 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > > >> Hello Lou: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> About ' discuss changing the name of the "DetNet Transport > > > sub-layer" to avoid the word "transport". ' > > > >> > > > >> For one I'd like to make that call. The unfortunate name > > > collision has started to hurt us quite a bit already and people > > > are getting confused on very active exchanges we have on the > > > mailing list. > > > >> > > > >> I tend to agree that for the general IETF "transport" > > generally > > > means "L4". Even point one in your email uses "transport" > > that way > > > I guess. Sadly many alternate names are highly overloaded > > already > > > (think "carrier" for instance, or "bus"). I like the term > > "train" > > > because of the association with a schedule, but that's just me. > > > >> > > > >> Same goes actually for the complex path that we build. That > > > complex path can be an elongated DODAG with multiple PREOF > > points. > > > Usual terms like "circuit" or "path" fail to capture that > > > complexity. 6TiSCH found the term "Track" to refer to it. > > > >> > > > >> Would you push that discussion to the ML? > > > >> > > > >> Take care, > > > >> > > > >> Pascal > > > >> > > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > > >>> From: Lou Berger > > >> > > > >>> Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 13:11 > > > >>> To: Scharf, Michael > > > > > >> > > > >>> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org > > >; > > > detnet@ietf.org > >; draft-ietf-detnet- > > > >>> architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > >> > > > >>> Subject: Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of > > > draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 > > > >>> > > > >>> Michael, > > > >>> > > > >>> I think we're getting somewhere and identifying where we > > have > > > disconnects > > > >>> and what may (and what may not) need to change in the > > > document. My > > > >>> takeaways are: > > > >>> > > > >>> - The document needs a good 'scrub' of the congestion > > related > > > references to > > > >>> ensure that the document only makes statements on what is > > > actually done > > > >>> within a DetNet and the relationship with transport > > protocols > > > that use detnet > > > >>> (which are in fact outside the scope of the DetNet WG). > > I'll > > > work with the > > > >>> authors and WG on this -- I see this change as > > important, but > > > editorial in > > > >>> nature. > > > >>> > > > >>> - We have a perception issue with at least one member of > the > > > TSV area on the > > > >>> meaning and more importantly, implication, of the term > > "DetNet > > > >>> *Transport* sub-layer". While I don't disagree that a good > > > portion of the IETF > > > >>> thinks transport protocol (UDP/TCP) when they hear > > "transport" > > > >>> there are plenty others, particularly in the routing > > area, who > > > understand that > > > >>> "transport" can refer to Transport Networks. And Transport > > > Network is a well > > > >>> understood general industry term. The IETF even has a > > bunch of > > > RFCs that > > > >>> relate to Transport networks. This said, I think it > > > reasonable to go back to the > > > >>> DetNet WG and discuss changing the name of the "DetNet > > > Transport sub- > > > >>> layer" to avoid the word "transport". -- BTW we made a > > > parallel change in > > > >>> the TEAS WG when producing RFC8453. > > > >>> > > > >>> See below for detail response in-line. > > > >>> > > > >>> On 11/19/2018 5:15 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote: > > > >>>> Lou, > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> -- > > > >>>>> I wanted to take a step back from the multiple > discussions > > > that were > > > >>>>> spawned by your review -- from a doc shepherd > perspective, > > > and see > > > >>>>> where we are. I know that the authors have sent a -09 > > > version that > > > >>>>> addresses some, but not all issues. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> From the exchanges I've seen, I think the key > > remaining > > > issues are > > > >>>>> related to: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> (a) possibly introduction of congestion in the general > > > internet if > > > >>>>> packets were somehow to escape a detnet domain. The > > source > > > of this > > > >>>>> congestion would be inelastic traffic using DetNet or > > due to > > > >>>>> congestion loss that is masked by PREOF. > > > >>>> These are two major issues that need to be addressed. Note > > > that it may not > > > >>> be sufficient just to add a section on operational and > > deployment > > > >>> considerations. Also the existing text in the document will > > > need to get aligned > > > >>> to normative guidance on how to avoid a congestion > collapse. > > > >>>> In -09, one example would be Section 3.1. "Primary goals > > > defining the > > > >>> DetNet QoS" > > > >>>> Congestion protection operates by allocating > > resources > > > along the path > > > >>>> of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link > > > bandwidth. Congestion > > > >>>> protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates > > > entirely, packet loss > > > >>>> due to output packet congestion within the > > network, but > > > it can only > > > >>>> be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the > > > source to a > > > >>>> maximum packet size and transmission rate. Note > that > > > congestion > > > >>>> protection provided via congestion detection and > > > notification is > > > >>>> explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, > > as it > > > serves a > > > >>>> different set of applications. > > > >>>> At least the last sentence would contradict a better > > > discussion of congestion > > > >>> in the document. For instance, it could just be removed. In > > > any case, the > > > >>> current wording in the last sentence is not correct, as the > > > IETF term for what is > > > >>> described in the last sentence is "congestion control". > > > >>>> Another example would be Section 3.2.1.1. "Eliminate > > > congestion loss" > > > >>>> > > > >>>> The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS > > > assurances is to > > > >>>> reduce, or even completely eliminate, congestion > > within > > > a DetNet node > > > >>>> as a cause of packet loss. This can be achieved only > > > by the > > > >>>> provision of sufficient buffer storage at each node > > > through the > > > >>>> network to ensure that no packets are dropped due > > to a > > > lack of buffer > > > >>>> storage. Note that a DetNet flow cannot be > > throttled, > > > i.e., its > > > >>>> transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit > > congestion > > > >>>> notification. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> This section IMHO has to include a discussion of what > > happens > > > in the (not > > > >>> expected) case that packets get dropped or that ECN > > marks are > > > received. It is > > > >>> understood that this would not happen in normal > > operation of a > > > DetNet > > > >>> network, but I believe just considering the error-free > > > operation of a DetNet > > > >>> network is not sufficient for this document. At least > > for the > > > risk of traffic that > > > >>> may escape from a DetNet network is inherently not > > sufficient > > > to assume that > > > >>> the DetNet network is always error-free. > > > >>> > > > >>> I think these are examples of text that needs to be > > cleanup up > > > and to > > > >>> delineate what is done with a DetNet. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> As a result, addressing my concerns will most likely > > require > > > editing several > > > >>> parts of the document. > > > >>>> In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review > > comment "It > > > is surprising > > > >>> that there is hardly any discussion on network > > robustness and > > > safety" > > > >>> > > > >>> I have no idea what you mean by safety here. Can you > > elaborate. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> covers more than just inelastic traffic that escapes from > a > > > DetNet network > > > >>> and masking of packet loss. Given that DetNet traffic may > be > > > extremely critical > > > >>> traffic, I really wonder why the document doesn't emphasize > > > more the > > > >>> required robustness against failures *inside* the DetNet > > > network as well as > > > >>> counter-measures. But this is something the WG needs to > > > decide. As TSV-ART > > > >>> reviewer, I will be fine if the document clearly > > describes how > > > the impact of > > > >>> failures will be isolated inside the DetNet network and > will > > > not put the general > > > >>> Internet at risk. > > > >>> > > > >>> I agree - I think, the document should be clear on it's > > scope and > > > >>> relationship to general internet usage. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>>> (b) The use of the term 'transport' in DetNet to refer to > > > what is > > > >>>>> basically a Traffic Engineered sub-network layer, such > > as is > > > provided > > > >>>>> with MPLS-TE or Optical Transport Networks. > > > >>>> In the Internet architecture, the term 'transport' > > refers to > > > Internet transport > > > >>> protocols. I doubt that the document can avoid > > discussing the > > > implications of > > > >>> and interactions with Internet transport protocols such > > as UDP > > > or TCP. As a > > > >>> result, I disagree that the document can use the term > > > 'transport' to refer to > > > >>> traffic engineered sub-network layers. > > > >>> > > > >>> I think this is covered by my comment above. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> From a TSV-ART point of view, the document can > > either only > > > use the term > > > >>> "transport" for Internet transport protocols and use > another > > > term for sub- > > > >>> network layers (as handled in the *routing* area of the > > IETF), > > > or the document > > > >>> has to clearly distinguish between the Internet transport > > > layer and other uses > > > >>> of the term "transport" and explain the overlap. I > > believe the > > > former would be > > > >>> less confusing, but I will leave it up to the TSV ADs to > > > discuss terminology > > > >>> overlap in the IESG. As TSV-ART reviewer I insist that the > > > document uses the > > > >>> terms "transport layer" and "transport protocol" only when > > > referring to the > > > >>> Internet transport layer. > > > >>> > > > >>> I'm personally okay with a name change and even willing to > > > push this > > > >>> discussion within the WG, but as said above, "Transport > > > Network" is a > > > >>> generally understood industry term that is also used in > RFCs > > > -- so we'll > > > >>> have to see what where WG consensus ends up. > > > >>> > > > >>>>> Do you have any other issues that that are critical to be > > > addressed > > > >>>>> before this work moves forward? If so which? > > > >>>> Regarding Section 4.4 I have already deferred the > > discussion > > > to the IESG. The > > > >>> TSV-ART review comment is that the IESG needs to carefully > > > look at the > > > >>> concepts, terminology, and references in section 4.4. > > > >>>> Regarding my other comments, I acknowledge that -09 is > > a step > > > forward. But > > > >>> given the cross-dependencies e.g. regarding terminology and > > > definitions, I will > > > >>> need to read the text completely once there is a > > proposal how > > > to address my > > > >>> review. As noted in my review, I believe the document > > must use > > > terminology > > > >>> clearly and consistently. As example, a statement in -09 > > such > > > as "Network > > > >>> nodes supporting DetNet flows have to implement some of > > the DetNet > > > >>> capabilities (not necessarily all) in order to treat DetNet > > > flows such that their > > > >>> QoS requirements are met" is IMHO too vague. But in such > > cases > > > it depends > > > >>> whether there is precise normative guidance elsewhere. And > > > this requires > > > >>> looking at the text as a whole. > > > >>> > > > >>> I think the next steps lie with me and the WG. We'll let > you > > > know once > > > >>> there is a new version. Of course, you can also > > contribute to > > > the WG > > > >>> discussion on the topic. > > > >>> > > > >>> Thanks, > > > >>> > > > >>> Lou > > > >>> > > > >>>> Best regards > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Michael > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> Thank you, > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Lou > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> On 9/28/2018 6:24 PM, Michael Scharf wrote: > > > >>>>>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf > > > >>>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" > > > >>>>>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall > > > framework for > > > >>>>>> Deterministic Networking. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has > > issues as > > > >>>>> detailed below. > > > >>>>>> Michael > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Major issues: > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> * It seems that DetNet cannot easily be deployed in the > > > Internet > > > >>>>> without > > > >>>>>> additional means. Thus, for a baseline document, one > > could > > > expect > > > >>>>> some > > > >>>>>> explanation on the requirements of deploying DetNet in a > > > network. > > > >>>>> DetNet > > > >>>>>> basically requires support in (almost) all network > > devices > > > >>>>> transporting DetNet > > > >>>>>> traffic. That assumption should be explicitly spelt out > > > early in the > > > >>>>> document, > > > >>>>>> e.g., in the introduction. There also needs to be an > > explicit > > > >>>>> discussion of the > > > >>>>>> implications if not the whole network is aware of or > > > supports DetNet. > > > >>>>> There is > > > >>>>>> some text in Section 4.2.2 and Section 4.3.3, but I > > believe > > > >>>>> additional explicit > > > >>>>>> discussion is needed at a prominant place. For instance, > > > can use of > > > >>>>> DetNet do > > > >>>>>> harm to parts of a network not supporting DetNet? As > > a side > > > note, > > > >>>>> when TCPM > > > >>>>>> published RFC 8257, the following disclaimer was added: > > > "DCTCP, as > > > >>>>> described in > > > >>>>>> this specification, is applicable to deployments in > > controlled > > > >>>>> environments > > > >>>>>> like data centers, but it must not be deployed over > > the public > > > >>>>> Internet without > > > >>>>>> additional measures." I wonder if a similar disclaimer > is > > > needed for > > > >>>>> DetNet. If > > > >>>>>> there is an implicit assumption that DetNet will be > > used in > > > >>>>> homogenous > > > >>>>>> environments with mostly DetNet-aware devices within > > the same > > > >>>>> organization, > > > >>>>>> such an assumption should be made explicit. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion > on > > > network > > > >>>>> robustness > > > >>>>>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For > > > instance, > > > >>>>>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing > packet > > > replication > > > >>>>> could > > > >>>>>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. > > > How does the > > > >>>>> DetNet > > > >>>>>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully > > operational > > > e.g. if > > > >>>>> the topology > > > >>>>>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably > > this can > > > be solved > > > >>>>> by > > > >>>>>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but > > why are > > > >>>>> corresponding > > > >>>>>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates > that > > > filters and > > > >>>>> policers > > > >>>>>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably > > still assumes > > > >>>>> consistently > > > >>>>>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. > And > > > Section > > > >>>>> 3.3.2 is > > > >>>>>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible > > > failures" without > > > >>>>> stating > > > >>>>>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be > further > > > solutions, > > > >>>>> such as > > > >>>>>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not > > > discussed? > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of > > > failures to > > > >>>>> the QoS of > > > >>>>>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to > > > protect non- > > > >>>>> DetNet parts > > > >>>>>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. > > > Solutions to > > > >>>>> this > > > >>>>>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet > > traffic > > > (e.g., in > > > >>>>> case of > > > >>>>>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not > > > discussed at > > > >>>>> all in the > > > >>>>>> document? > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> * Regarding security, an architecture like DetNet > > probably > > > requires > > > >>>>> that only > > > >>>>>> authenticated and authorized end systems have access > > to the > > > data > > > >>>>> plane. The > > > >>>>>> security considerations only briefly mention the control > > > aspect ("the > > > >>>>>> authentication and authorization of the controlling > > systems"). > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> * For an architecture document, the lack of clarity and > > > consistency > > > >>>>> regarding > > > >>>>>> terminology is concerning. This specifically applies > > to the > > > case of > > > >>>>> incomplete > > > >>>>>> networks (as per Section 4.2.2 and 4.3.3) that > > include "DetNet- > > > >>>>> unaware nodes". > > > >>>>>> The document introduces terms such as "DetNet > > intermediate > > > nodes" but > > > >>>>> then > > > >>>>>> repeatedly uses generic terms such as "node" or "hop" > > that may > > > >>>>> include > > > >>>>>> DetNet-unaware nodes. For instance, for incomplete > > networks, a > > > >>>>> sentence such as > > > >>>>>> "The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS > > > assurances is to > > > >>>>> reduce, or > > > >>>>>> even completely eliminate, congestion within a node as a > > > cause of > > > >>>>> packet loss" > > > >>>>>> seems to only apply to "DetNet transit nodes" but not > > > "DetNet-unaware > > > >>>>> nodes". > > > >>>>>> Similar ambiguity exist for other use of the terms "hop" > > > and "node", > > > >>>>> which may > > > >>>>>> or may not include DetNet-unaware nodes. It is > > unclear why the > > > >>>>> document does > > > >>>>>> not consistently use the terminology introduced in > > Section > > > 2.1 in all > > > >>>>> sections > > > >>>>>> and clearly distinguishes cases with and without DetNet > > > support. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an > > informational > > > RFC on > > > >>>>> IRTF stream, > > > >>>>>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there > > (e.g., > > > "planes"). > > > >>>>> This is > > > >>>>>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should > > > probably > > > >>>>> refer to > > > >>>>>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC > > > 7491, albeit > > > >>>>> there is > > > >>>>>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. > Second, > > > Section 4.4 > > > >>>>> is by and > > > >>>>>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not > > > specific to > > > >>>>> DetNet. > > > >>>>>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to > > the concepts > > > >>>>> introduced in > > > >>>>>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet > > terminology or > > > >>>>> discuss > > > >>>>>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions > > > explicitly at the > > > >>>>> end that > > > >>>>>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet > > > architecture. > > > >>>>> It is not > > > >>>>>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. > Section > > > 4.4 could > > > >>>>> be removed > > > >>>>>> from the document without impacting the rest of the > > document. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Minor issues: > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> The term "transport layer" has a well-defined > > meaning > > > in the IETF, > > > >>>>> e.g. > > > >>>>>> originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" > > and e.g. > > > "transport > > > >>>>> network" is > > > >>>>>> used in the IETF for different technologies in > > > different areas, I > > > >>>>> think the > > > >>>>>> term "transport layer" is typically understood to > > > refer to > > > >>>>> transport > > > >>>>>> protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I > > personally > > > find the term > > > >>>>> "DetNet > > > >>>>>> transport layer" misleading and confusing. The > > > confusion is easy > > > >>>>> to see e.g. > > > >>>>>> in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport > > protocol > > > as per RFC > > > >>>>> 1122) sits > > > >>>>>> on top of "transport". > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Based on the document it also may be > > > solution/implementation > > > >>>>> specific whether > > > >>>>>> the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a > separate > > > protocol layer > > > >>>>> compared > > > >>>>>> to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not > clear > > > to me why the > > > >>>>> word > > > >>>>>> "layer" has to be used, specifically in > combination > > > "transport > > > >>>>> layer". > > > >>>>>> To me as, the word "transport layer" (and > > "transport > > > protocol") > > > >>>>> should be > > > >>>>>> used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent > > > with RFC 1122. > > > >>>>> But this is > > > >>>>>> probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> * Page 9 > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> A DetNet node may have other resources requiring > > > allocation > > > >>>>> and/or > > > >>>>>> scheduling, > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> This is just one of several examples for > > inconsistent > > > use of > > > >>>>> terminology. > > > >>>>>> What is a "DetNet node"? That term is not > > introduced > > > in Section > > > >>>>> 2.1 > > > >>>>>> * Page 14 > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> A DetNet network supports the dedication of a > high > > > proportion > > > >>>>> (e.g. > > > >>>>>> 75%) of the network bandwidth to DetNet flows. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> The 75% value is not reasoned. What prevents using > > > 99% of the > > > >>>>> bandwidth for > > > >>>>>> DetNet traffic? > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> * Page 15: Figure 2 > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> If the term "transport layer" cannot be > > avoided, the > > > labels in > > > >>>>> this figure > > > >>>>>> should at least be expanded to "DetNet > > transport layer". > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> * Page 18: Figure 4 > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> As already mentioned earlier, Figure 4 is > > confusing. > > > UDP is a > > > >>>>> transport > > > >>>>>> protocol. If the term "transport" cannot be > > avoided, > > > the labels in > > > >>>>> this > > > >>>>>> figure should at least be expanded to "DetNet > > transport". > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> * Page 23 > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> If the source transmits less data than this limit > > > >>>>>> allows, the unused resource such as link > bandwidth > > > can be made > > > >>>>>> available by the system to non-DetNet packets. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Could there be additional requirements on the > > use of > > > unused > > > >>>>> resources by > > > >>>>>> non-DetNet packets, e.g., regarding preemption? > > I am just > > > >>>>> wondering... If > > > >>>>>> that was possible, a statement like "... can be > > made > > > available by > > > >>>>> the system > > > >>>>>> to non-DetNet packets as long as all guarantees > are > > > fulfilled" > > > >>>>> would be on > > > >>>>>> the safe side, no? > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> * Page 27: > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> DetNet achieves congestion protection and bounded > > > delivery > > > >>>>> latency by > > > >>>>>> reserving bandwidth and buffer resources at every > > > hop along the > > > >>>>> path > > > >>>>>> of the DetNet flow. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Why does this sentence use the word "hop"? As > > far as > > > I understand, > > > >>>>> in DetNet > > > >>>>>> bandwidth and buffer resources are reserved in > each > > > DetNet > > > >>>>> intermediate node. > > > >>>>>> If there were hops over IP routers not being > DetNet > > > intermediate > > > >>>>> nodes, no > > > >>>>>> resources would be reserved there. As per Section > > > 4.3.3, it is > > > >>>>> possible to > > > >>>>>> deploy DetNet this way. And obviously there can be > > > resource > > > >>>>> bottlenecks below > > > >>>>>> IP, on devices that are not routers... So does > > "hop" > > > here refer to > > > >>>>> IP router > > > >>>>>> hops or also to devices not processing IP (or > > IP/MPLS)? > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> * Page 27: > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Standard queuing and transmission selection > > > algorithms allow a > > > >>>>>> central controller to compute the latency > > > contribution of each > > > >>>>>> transit node to the end-to-end latency, ... > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> The text does not explain why a _central_ > > controller > > > is needed for > > > >>>>> this > > > >>>>>> computation. Why would a distributed control plane > > > not be able to > > > >>>>> realize > > > >>>>>> this computation. Isn't this > > implementation-specific? > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> * Page 32 > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> To somebody who is not deeply familiar with > > DetNet, it is > > > >>>>> impossible to parse > > > >>>>>> the description of the examples in Section > > 4.7.3. For > > > instance, > > > >>>>> "VID + > > > >>>>>> multicast MAC address" is not introduced. I think > > > this example > > > >>>>> must be > > > >>>>>> expaned with additional context and explanation > > to be > > > useful to > > > >>>>> readers. > > > >>>>>> * Page 34 > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> There are three classes of information that a > > > central controller > > > >>>>> or > > > >>>>>> distributed control plane needs to know that can > > > only be obtained > > > >>>>>> from the end systems and/or nodes in the network. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Wouldn't it be sufficient to state "Provisioning > of > > > DetNet > > > >>>>> requires knowledge > > > >>>>>> about ...". Does it matter in this context > > whether the > > > >>>>> provisioning is done > > > >>>>>> by a central controller or a distributed control > > > plane? For > > > >>>>> instance, could > > > >>>>>> the same paragraph also apply to a network that > > uses > > > _multiple_ > > > >>>>> central > > > >>>>>> controllers, or hybrid combinations of central > > > controllers and > > > >>>>> distributed > > > >>>>>> control planes? In general, an architecture > > document > > > should be > > > >>>>> agnostic to > > > >>>>>> implementation aspects unless there is a specific > > > need. In this > > > >>>>> specific > > > >>>>>> case, I fail to see a need to discuss the > > realization > > > of the > > > >>>>> control plane of > > > >>>>>> a network. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Editorial nits: > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> * Page 9: > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 > > > provide the > > > >>>>>> necessary regulation of transmissions by an end > > > system or > > > >>>>>> intermediate node to provide congestion > > protection. The > > > >>>>> allocation > > > >>>>>> of the bandwidth and buffers for a DetNet flow > > requires > > > >>>>> provisioning > > > >>>>>> A DetNet node may have other resources requiring > > > allocation > > > >>>>> and/or > > > >>>>>> scheduling, that might otherwise be > > over-subscribed > > > and trigger > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>>> rejection of a reservation. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Probably a full stop is missing after > > "provisioning". > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> * Page 11: "... along separate (disjoint non-SRLG) > > paths ..." > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> I find this confusing. I would understand e.g. > > "along > > > separate > > > >>>>>> (SRLG-disjoint) paths". > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> * Page 34: > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> When using a peer- > > > >>>>>> to-peer control plane, some of this > > information may > > > be required > > > >>>>> by a > > > >>>>>> system's neighbors in the network. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Would "acquired" be a better term? > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> * Page 34: > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> o The identity of the system's neighbors, and > the > > > >>>>> characteristics of > > > >>>>>> the link(s) between the systems, including the > > > length (in > > > >>>>>> nanoseconds) of the link(s). > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> "Latency" or "delay" would probably be a better > > terms > > > if the value > > > >>>>> is > > > >>>>>> measured in nanoseconds. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> * Page 35: > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), > and > > > as such, does > > > >>>>> not > > > >>>>>> directly raise any new privacy considerations. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Broken sentence > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> * Please expand acronyms on first use (e.g., OTN) > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>>> detnet mailing list > > > >>>> detnet@ietf.org > > > > > > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > detnet mailing list > > > detnet@ietf.org > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > > > --000000000000a8e105057ced5fe8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGRpdiBkaXI9Imx0ciI+TG91LDxkaXY+PGJyPjwvZGl2PjxkaXY+WWVzLCBidXQgbm90IFNSdjYg ZXhwbGljaXRseSwgYXMgb3Bwb3NlZCB0byBleHBsaWNpdGx5IGJvdGggTVBMUyBURSBMU1BzIGFu ZCBTUi1NUExTLiBCdXQgbXkgcXVlc3Rpb24gd2FzIGFuc3dlcmVkLCBzbyBJJiMzOTttIGdvb2Qh IDotKTwvZGl2PjxkaXY+PGJyPjwvZGl2PjxkaXY+VGhhbmtzLDwvZGl2PjxkaXY+QW5keTwvZGl2 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([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id XXlngwSVTs5nAXXlng5tOm; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 13:39:43 -0700 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Yn7Jdl5fWFEO/HSmNpTFqupHxl5MW9CraDwNC2Sxjcg=; b=vlfg6LR4dpV/cn4xZ2YEm9XL/Z 7KLoRqqiOeWDHG+V7YDAg97oxSp88+6sagbYh3ldzfC1u6MjXUTsowURxYUjd2MAhdWvQ4hadYzLZ OzOCDXiEQC2qMeqGgz2sgrWzR; Received: from pool-100-15-82-67.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.82.67]:51062 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gXXln-0036D6-6d; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 13:39:43 -0700 To: "Andrew G. Malis" Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de, draft-ietf-detnet-architecture.all@ietf.org, detnet WG References: <153817345967.27205.135001179751151278@ietfa.amsl.com> <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2D16A4D3@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> <16c050e436f342bb94b1ec9d1a38da3e@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <3adfa63a-e6de-b899-f7ce-79d8f668d40f@labn.net> <5164e2e0-f4ff-331c-11e0-deb080d1c520@labn.net> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <3e977a3c-bd91-99d4-3d27-05488f0892ce@labn.net> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 15:39:41 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.82.67 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gXXln-0036D6-6d X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-82-67.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.82.67]:51062 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 5 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Transport sub-layer name change (Was Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 21:04:25 -0000 IPv6 *is* there ;-) On 12/13/2018 3:29 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Lou, > > Thanks, that's what I thought, but I didn't see it in your list of > DetNet Forwarding sub-layer protocols. > > Cheers. > Andy > > > On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 1:55 PM Lou Berger > wrote: > > Hi Andy, > > As SRv6 is implemented using an IPv6 routing header the figure below > accurately shows IPv6 (and consequently SRv6) as being  part of the > Forwarding sub-layer. > > In case you were really asking if use of SRv6 is in  scope of > DetNet WG, > I don't see anything in the charter that would preclude the WG > working > on DetNet SRv6. > > Lou > > On 12/13/2018 1:16 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > Lou, > > > > I think we've discussed this before, but I wanted to confirm > whether > > SRv6 is in scope for the DetNet Forwarding sub-layer. > > > > Thanks, > > Andy > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 12:47 PM Lou Berger > > >> wrote: > > > >     Hi, > > > >          My reading is that the WG has settled on: > > > >            +----------------------------+ > >            |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE > >            +----------------------------+ > >            | DetNet Forwarding sub-layer| IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE LSPs, > >     MPLS SR > >            +----------------------------+ > >                          . > >                          . > > > >                        Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > > > >     Authors, (of detnet-architecture) > >          Please work to have the next rev of the draft reflect this > >     change. > > > >     Thank you to all who participated in the discussion! > >     Lou > >     (as co-chair and doc shepherd) > > > >     On 11/20/2018 1:18 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > >     > ALL, > >     > > >     > There is a desire to replace the word "Transport" from the > DetNet > >     > Transport sub-layer to avoid confusion with L$ Transport > protocols. > >     > > >     > In the TEAS WG we had a similar discussion and we replaced > >     "Transport" > >     > with "Traffic Engineered (TE) ". > >     > > >     > While a bit more verbose, what do people think about this > change? > >     > > >     > To be clear, the suggestion is: > >     > > >     > OLD > >     > > >     >                      . > >     >                      . > >     >        +----------------------------+ > >     >        |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE > >     >        +----------------------------+ > >     >        | DetNet Transport sub-layer | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE > LSPs, > >     MPLS SR > >     >        +----------------------------+ > >     >                      . > >     >                      . > >     > > >     >                    Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > >     > > >     > NEW > >     > > >     >                      . > >     >                      . > >     >        +----------------------------+ > >     >        |  DetNet Service sub-layer  | PW, UDP, GRE > >     >        +----------------------------+ > >     >        |      DetNet TE sub-layer   | IPv6, IPv4, MPLS TE > LSPs, > >     MPLS SR > >     >        +----------------------------+ > >     >                      . > >     >                      . > >     > > >     >                    Figure 4: DetNet adaptation to data plane > >     > > >     > Lou > >     > > >     > On 11/20/2018 11:21 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > >     >> Hello Lou: > >     >> > >     >> > >     >> About ' discuss changing the name of the "DetNet Transport > >     sub-layer"  to avoid the word "transport".  ' > >     >> > >     >> For one I'd like to make that call. The unfortunate name > >     collision has started to hurt us quite a bit already and people > >     are getting confused on very active exchanges we have on the > >     mailing list. > >     >> > >     >> I tend to agree that for the general IETF "transport" > generally > >     means "L4". Even point one in your email uses "transport" > that way > >     I guess. Sadly many alternate names are highly overloaded > already > >     (think "carrier" for instance, or "bus"). I like the term > "train" > >     because of the association with a schedule, but that's just me. > >     >> > >     >> Same goes actually for the complex path that we build. That > >     complex path can be an elongated DODAG with multiple PREOF > points. > >     Usual terms like "circuit" or "path" fail to capture that > >     complexity. 6TiSCH found the term "Track" to refer to it. > >     >> > >     >> Would you push that discussion to the ML? > >     >> > >     >> Take care, > >     >> > >     >> Pascal > >     >> > >     >>> -----Original Message----- > >     >>> From: Lou Berger >> > >     >>> Sent: mardi 20 novembre 2018 13:11 > >     >>> To: Scharf, Michael > >      >> > >     >>> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org > >; > > detnet@ietf.org >; draft-ietf-detnet- > >     >>> architecture.all@ietf.org > > > > >     >>> Subject: Re: [Detnet] Tsvart last call review of > >     draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08 > >     >>> > >     >>> Michael, > >     >>> > >     >>> I think we're getting somewhere and identifying where we > have > >     disconnects > >     >>> and what may (and what may not) need to change in the > >     document.  My > >     >>> takeaways are: > >     >>> > >     >>> - The document needs a good 'scrub' of the congestion > related > >     references to > >     >>> ensure that the document only makes statements on what is > >     actually done > >     >>> within a DetNet and the relationship with transport > protocols > >     that use detnet > >     >>> (which are in fact outside the scope of the DetNet WG).  > I'll > >     work with the > >     >>> authors and WG on this -- I see this change as > important, but > >     editorial in > >     >>> nature. > >     >>> > >     >>> - We have a perception issue with at least one member of the > >     TSV area on the > >     >>> meaning and more importantly, implication, of the term > "DetNet > >     >>> *Transport* sub-layer".  While I don't disagree that a good > >     portion of the IETF > >     >>> thinks transport protocol (UDP/TCP) when they hear > "transport" > >     >>> there are plenty others, particularly in the routing > area, who > >     understand that > >     >>> "transport" can refer to Transport Networks.  And Transport > >     Network is a well > >     >>> understood general industry term. The IETF even has a > bunch of > >     RFCs that > >     >>> relate to Transport networks.  This said, I think it > >     reasonable to go back to the > >     >>> DetNet WG and discuss changing the name of the "DetNet > >     Transport sub- > >     >>> layer"  to avoid the word "transport". -- BTW we made a > >     parallel change in > >     >>> the TEAS WG when producing RFC8453. > >     >>> > >     >>> See below for detail response in-line. > >     >>> > >     >>> On 11/19/2018 5:15 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote: > >     >>>> Lou, > >     >>>> > >     >>>>> -- > >     >>>>> I wanted to take a step back from the multiple discussions > >     that were > >     >>>>> spawned by your review -- from a doc shepherd perspective, > >     and see > >     >>>>> where we are.   I know that the authors have sent a -09 > >     version that > >     >>>>> addresses some, but not all issues. > >     >>>>> > >     >>>>>     From the exchanges I've seen, I think the key > remaining > >     issues are > >     >>>>> related to: > >     >>>>> > >     >>>>> (a) possibly introduction of congestion in the general > >     internet if > >     >>>>> packets were somehow to escape a detnet domain.  The > source > >     of this > >     >>>>> congestion would be inelastic traffic using DetNet or > due to > >     >>>>> congestion loss that is masked by PREOF. > >     >>>> These are two major issues that need to be addressed. Note > >     that it may not > >     >>> be sufficient just to add a section on operational and > deployment > >     >>> considerations. Also the existing text in the document will > >     need to get aligned > >     >>> to normative guidance on how to avoid a congestion collapse. > >     >>>> In -09, one example would be Section 3.1. "Primary goals > >     defining the > >     >>> DetNet QoS" > >     >>>>       Congestion protection operates by allocating > resources > >     along the path > >     >>>>       of a DetNet flow, e.g., buffer space or link > >     bandwidth.  Congestion > >     >>>>       protection greatly reduces, or even eliminates > >     entirely, packet loss > >     >>>>       due to output packet congestion within the > network, but > >     it can only > >     >>>>       be supplied to a DetNet flow that is limited at the > >     source to a > >     >>>>       maximum packet size and transmission rate.  Note that > >     congestion > >     >>>>       protection provided via congestion detection and > >     notification is > >     >>>>       explicitly excluded from consideration in DetNet, > as it > >     serves a > >     >>>>       different set of applications. > >     >>>> At least the last sentence would contradict a better > >     discussion of congestion > >     >>> in the document. For instance, it could just be removed. In > >     any case, the > >     >>> current wording in the last sentence is not correct, as the > >     IETF term for what is > >     >>> described in the last sentence is "congestion control". > >     >>>> Another example would be  Section 3.2.1.1. "Eliminate > >     congestion loss" > >     >>>> > >     >>>>       The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS > >     assurances is to > >     >>>>       reduce, or even completely eliminate, congestion > within > >     a DetNet node > >     >>>>       as a cause of packet loss. This can be achieved only > >     by the > >     >>>>       provision of sufficient buffer storage at each node > >     through the > >     >>>>       network to ensure that no packets are dropped due > to a > >     lack of buffer > >     >>>>       storage.  Note that a DetNet flow cannot be > throttled, > >     i.e., its > >     >>>>       transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit > congestion > >     >>>>       notification. > >     >>>> > >     >>>> This section IMHO has to include a discussion of what > happens > >     in the (not > >     >>> expected) case that packets get dropped or that ECN > marks are > >     received. It is > >     >>> understood that this would not happen in normal > operation of a > >     DetNet > >     >>> network, but I believe just considering the error-free > >     operation of a DetNet > >     >>> network is not sufficient for this document. At least > for the > >     risk of traffic that > >     >>> may escape from a DetNet network is inherently not > sufficient > >     to assume that > >     >>> the DetNet network is always error-free. > >     >>> > >     >>> I think these are examples of text that needs to be > cleanup up > >     and to > >     >>> delineate what is done with a DetNet. > >     >>> > >     >>> > >     >>>> As a result, addressing my concerns will most likely > require > >     editing several > >     >>> parts of the document. > >     >>>> In addition, I'd like to emphasize that my review > comment "It > >     is surprising > >     >>> that there is hardly any discussion on network > robustness and > >     safety" > >     >>> > >     >>> I have no idea what you mean by safety here.  Can you > elaborate. > >     >>> > >     >>> > >     >>>> covers more than just inelastic traffic that escapes from a > >     DetNet network > >     >>> and masking of packet loss. Given that DetNet traffic may be > >     extremely critical > >     >>> traffic, I really wonder why the document doesn't emphasize > >     more the > >     >>> required robustness against failures *inside* the DetNet > >     network as well as > >     >>> counter-measures. But this is something the WG needs to > >     decide. As TSV-ART > >     >>> reviewer, I will be fine if the document clearly > describes how > >     the impact of > >     >>> failures will be isolated inside the DetNet network and will > >     not put the general > >     >>> Internet at risk. > >     >>> > >     >>> I agree - I think, the document should be clear on it's > scope and > >     >>> relationship to general internet usage. > >     >>> > >     >>> > >     >>>>> (b) The use of the term 'transport' in DetNet to refer to > >     what is > >     >>>>> basically a Traffic Engineered sub-network layer, such > as is > >     provided > >     >>>>> with MPLS-TE or Optical Transport Networks. > >     >>>> In the Internet architecture, the term 'transport' > refers to > >     Internet transport > >     >>> protocols. I doubt that the document can avoid > discussing the > >     implications of > >     >>> and interactions with Internet transport protocols such > as UDP > >     or TCP. As a > >     >>> result, I disagree that the document can use the term > >     'transport' to refer to > >     >>> traffic engineered sub-network layers. > >     >>> > >     >>> I think this is covered by my comment above. > >     >>> > >     >>> > >     >>>>    From a TSV-ART point of view, the document can > either only > >     use the term > >     >>> "transport" for Internet transport protocols and use another > >     term for sub- > >     >>> network layers (as handled in the *routing* area of the > IETF), > >     or the document > >     >>> has to clearly distinguish between the Internet transport > >     layer and other uses > >     >>> of the term "transport" and explain the overlap. I > believe the > >     former would be > >     >>> less confusing, but I will leave it up to the TSV ADs to > >     discuss terminology > >     >>> overlap in the IESG. As TSV-ART reviewer I insist that the > >     document uses the > >     >>> terms "transport layer" and "transport protocol" only when > >     referring to the > >     >>> Internet transport layer. > >     >>> > >     >>> I'm personally okay with a name change and even willing to > >     push this > >     >>> discussion within the WG, but as said above, "Transport > >     Network" is a > >     >>> generally understood industry term that is also used in RFCs > >     -- so we'll > >     >>> have to see what where WG consensus ends up. > >     >>> > >     >>>>> Do you have any other issues that that are critical to be > >     addressed > >     >>>>> before this work moves forward? If so which? > >     >>>> Regarding Section 4.4 I have already deferred the > discussion > >     to the IESG. The > >     >>> TSV-ART review comment is that the IESG needs to carefully > >     look at the > >     >>> concepts, terminology, and references in section 4.4. > >     >>>> Regarding my other comments, I acknowledge that -09 is > a step > >     forward. But > >     >>> given the cross-dependencies e.g. regarding terminology and > >     definitions, I will > >     >>> need to read the text completely once there is a > proposal how > >     to address my > >     >>> review. As noted in my review, I believe the document > must use > >     terminology > >     >>> clearly and consistently. As example, a statement in -09 > such > >     as "Network > >     >>> nodes supporting DetNet flows have to implement some of > the DetNet > >     >>> capabilities (not necessarily all) in order to treat DetNet > >     flows such that their > >     >>> QoS requirements are met" is IMHO too vague. But in such > cases > >     it depends > >     >>> whether there is precise normative guidance elsewhere. And > >     this requires > >     >>> looking at the text as a whole. > >     >>> > >     >>> I think the next steps lie with me and the WG. We'll let you > >     know once > >     >>> there is a new version.  Of course, you can also > contribute to > >     the WG > >     >>> discussion on the topic. > >     >>> > >     >>> Thanks, > >     >>> > >     >>> Lou > >     >>> > >     >>>> Best regards > >     >>>> > >     >>>> Michael > >     >>>> > >     >>>> > >     >>>> > >     >>>>> Thank you, > >     >>>>> > >     >>>>> Lou > >     >>>>> > >     >>>>> On 9/28/2018 6:24 PM, Michael Scharf wrote: > >     >>>>>> Reviewer: Michael Scharf > >     >>>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> The document "Deterministic Networking Architecture" > >     >>>>>> (draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-08) defines an overall > >     framework for > >     >>>>>> Deterministic Networking. > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> As TSV-ART reviewer, I believe that this document has > issues as > >     >>>>> detailed below. > >     >>>>>> Michael > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> Major issues: > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> * It seems that DetNet cannot easily be deployed in the > >     Internet > >     >>>>> without > >     >>>>>> additional means. Thus, for a baseline document, one > could > >     expect > >     >>>>> some > >     >>>>>> explanation on the requirements of deploying DetNet in a > >     network. > >     >>>>> DetNet > >     >>>>>> basically requires support in (almost) all network > devices > >     >>>>> transporting DetNet > >     >>>>>> traffic. That assumption should be explicitly spelt out > >     early in the > >     >>>>> document, > >     >>>>>> e.g., in the introduction. There also needs to be an > explicit > >     >>>>> discussion of the > >     >>>>>> implications if not the whole network is aware of or > >     supports DetNet. > >     >>>>> There is > >     >>>>>> some text in Section 4.2.2 and Section 4.3.3, but I > believe > >     >>>>> additional explicit > >     >>>>>> discussion is needed at a prominant place. For instance, > >     can use of > >     >>>>> DetNet do > >     >>>>>> harm to parts of a network not supporting DetNet? As > a side > >     note, > >     >>>>> when TCPM > >     >>>>>> published RFC 8257, the following disclaimer was added: > >     "DCTCP, as > >     >>>>> described in > >     >>>>>> this specification, is applicable to deployments in > controlled > >     >>>>> environments > >     >>>>>> like data centers, but it must not be deployed over > the public > >     >>>>> Internet without > >     >>>>>> additional measures." I wonder if a similar disclaimer is > >     needed for > >     >>>>> DetNet. If > >     >>>>>> there is an implicit assumption that DetNet will  be > used in > >     >>>>> homogenous > >     >>>>>> environments with mostly DetNet-aware devices within > the same > >     >>>>> organization, > >     >>>>>> such an assumption should be made explicit. > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> * It is surprising that there is hardly any discussion on > >     network > >     >>>>> robustness > >     >>>>>> and safety; this probably also relates to security. For > >     instance, > >     >>>>>> misconfiguration or errors of functions performing packet > >     replication > >     >>>>> could > >     >>>>>> severely and permantly congest a network and cause harm. > >     How does the > >     >>>>> DetNet > >     >>>>>> architecture ensure that a network stays fully > operational > >     e.g. if > >     >>>>> the topology > >     >>>>>> changes or there are equipment failures? Probably > this can > >     be solved > >     >>>>> by > >     >>>>>> implementations (e.g., dynamic control plane), but > why are > >     >>>>> corresponding > >     >>>>>> requirements not spelt out? Section 3.3.2 speculates that > >     filters and > >     >>>>> policers > >     >>>>>> can help, and that may be true, but that probably > still assumes > >     >>>>> consistently > >     >>>>>> and correctly configured (and well-behaving) devices. And > >     Section > >     >>>>> 3.3.2 is > >     >>>>>> vague and mentions a "infinite variety of possible > >     failures" without > >     >>>>> stating > >     >>>>>> any requirements or recommendations. There may be further > >     solutions, > >     >>>>> such as > >     >>>>>> circuit breakers and the like. Why are such topics not > >     discussed? > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> * Somewhat related, the document only looks at impact of > >     failures to > >     >>>>> the QoS of > >     >>>>>> DetNet traffic. What is missing is a discussion how to > >     protect non- > >     >>>>> DetNet parts > >     >>>>>> of a network from any harm caused by DetNet mechanisms. > >     Solutions to > >     >>>>> this > >     >>>>>> probably exist. But why is the impact on non-DetNet > traffic > >     (e.g., in > >     >>>>> case of > >     >>>>>> topology changes or failures of DetNet functions) not > >     discussed at > >     >>>>> all in the > >     >>>>>> document? > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> * Regarding security, an architecture like DetNet > probably > >     requires > >     >>>>> that only > >     >>>>>> authenticated and authorized end systems have access > to the > >     data > >     >>>>> plane. The > >     >>>>>> security considerations only briefly mention the control > >     aspect ("the > >     >>>>>> authentication and authorization of the controlling > systems"). > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> * For an architecture document, the lack of clarity and > >     consistency > >     >>>>> regarding > >     >>>>>> terminology is concerning. This specifically applies > to the > >     case of > >     >>>>> incomplete > >     >>>>>> networks (as per Section 4.2.2 and 4.3.3) that > include "DetNet- > >     >>>>> unaware nodes". > >     >>>>>> The document introduces terms such as "DetNet > intermediate > >     nodes" but > >     >>>>> then > >     >>>>>> repeatedly uses generic terms such as "node" or "hop" > that may > >     >>>>> include > >     >>>>>> DetNet-unaware nodes. For instance, for incomplete > networks, a > >     >>>>> sentence such as > >     >>>>>> "The primary means by which DetNet achieves its QoS > >     assurances is to > >     >>>>> reduce, or > >     >>>>>> even completely eliminate, congestion within a node as a > >     cause of > >     >>>>> packet loss" > >     >>>>>> seems to only apply to "DetNet transit nodes" but not > >     "DetNet-unaware > >     >>>>> nodes". > >     >>>>>> Similar ambiguity exist for other use of the terms "hop" > >     and "node", > >     >>>>> which may > >     >>>>>> or may not include DetNet-unaware nodes. It is > unclear why the > >     >>>>> document does > >     >>>>>> not consistently use the terminology introduced in > Section > >     2.1 in all > >     >>>>> sections > >     >>>>>> and clearly distinguishes cases with and without DetNet > >     support. > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> * Section 4.4 refers to RFC 7426, which is an > informational > >     RFC on > >     >>>>> IRTF stream, > >     >>>>>> and the document uses the concepts introduced there > (e.g., > >     "planes"). > >     >>>>> This is > >     >>>>>> very confusing. First, an IETF Proposed Standard should > >     probably > >     >>>>> refer to > >     >>>>>> documents having IETF consensus. An example would be RFC > >     7491, albeit > >     >>>>> there is > >     >>>>>> other related work as well, e.g., in the TEAS WG. Second, > >     Section 4.4 > >     >>>>> is by and > >     >>>>>> large decoupled from the rest of the document and not > >     specific to > >     >>>>> DetNet. > >     >>>>>> Neither do other sections of the document refer to > the concepts > >     >>>>> introduced in > >     >>>>>> Section 4.4, nor does Section 4.4 use the DetNet > terminology or > >     >>>>> discuss > >     >>>>>> applicability to DetNet. Section 4.4 even mentions > >     explicitly at the > >     >>>>> end that > >     >>>>>> it discusses aspects that are orthogonal to the DetNet > >     architecture. > >     >>>>> It is not > >     >>>>>> at all clear why Section 4.4 is in this document. Section > >     4.4 could > >     >>>>> be removed > >     >>>>>> from the document without impacting the rest of the > document. > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> Minor issues: > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> * Terminology "DetNet transport layer" > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>       The term "transport layer" has a well-defined > meaning > >     in the IETF, > >     >>>>> e.g. > >     >>>>>>       originating from RFC 1122. While "transport" > and e.g. > >     "transport > >     >>>>> network" is > >     >>>>>>       used in the IETF for different technologies in > >     different areas, I > >     >>>>> think the > >     >>>>>>       term "transport layer" is typically understood to > >     refer to > >     >>>>> transport > >     >>>>>>       protocols such as TCP and UDP. As such, I > personally > >     find the term > >     >>>>> "DetNet > >     >>>>>>       transport layer" misleading and confusing. The > >     confusion is easy > >     >>>>> to see e.g. > >     >>>>>>       in Figure 4, where UDP (which is a transport > protocol > >     as per RFC > >     >>>>> 1122) sits > >     >>>>>>       on top of "transport". > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>       Based on the document it also may be > >     solution/implementation > >     >>>>> specific whether > >     >>>>>>       the "DetNet transport layer" is actually a separate > >     protocol layer > >     >>>>> compared > >     >>>>>>       to the "DetNet service layer". Thus it is not clear > >     to me why the > >     >>>>> word > >     >>>>>>       "layer" has to be used, specifically in combination > >     "transport > >     >>>>> layer". > >     >>>>>>       To me as, the word "transport layer" (and > "transport > >     protocol") > >     >>>>> should be > >     >>>>>>       used for protocols defined in TSV area, consistent > >     with RFC 1122. > >     >>>>> But this is > >     >>>>>>       probably a question to be sorted out by the IESG. > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> * Page 9 > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>        A DetNet node may have other resources requiring > >     allocation > >     >>>>> and/or > >     >>>>>>        scheduling, > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>       This is just one of several examples for > inconsistent > >     use of > >     >>>>> terminology. > >     >>>>>>       What is a "DetNet node"? That term is not > introduced > >     in Section > >     >>>>> 2.1 > >     >>>>>> * Page 14 > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>        A DetNet network supports the dedication of a high > >     proportion > >     >>>>> (e.g. > >     >>>>>>        75%) of the network bandwidth to DetNet flows. > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>       The 75% value is not reasoned. What prevents using > >     99% of the > >     >>>>> bandwidth for > >     >>>>>>       DetNet traffic? > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> * Page 15: Figure 2 > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>       If the term "transport layer" cannot be > avoided, the > >     labels in > >     >>>>> this figure > >     >>>>>>       should at least be expanded to "DetNet > transport layer". > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> * Page 18: Figure 4 > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>       As already mentioned earlier, Figure 4 is > confusing. > >     UDP is a > >     >>>>> transport > >     >>>>>>       protocol. If the term "transport" cannot be > avoided, > >     the labels in > >     >>>>> this > >     >>>>>>       figure should at least be expanded to "DetNet > transport". > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> * Page 23 > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>        If the source transmits less data than this limit > >     >>>>>>        allows, the unused resource such as link bandwidth > >     can be made > >     >>>>>>        available by the system to non-DetNet packets. > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>       Could there be additional requirements on the > use of > >     unused > >     >>>>> resources by > >     >>>>>>       non-DetNet packets, e.g., regarding preemption? > I am just > >     >>>>> wondering... If > >     >>>>>>       that was possible, a statement like "... can be > made > >     available by > >     >>>>> the system > >     >>>>>>       to non-DetNet packets as long as all guarantees are > >     fulfilled" > >     >>>>> would be on > >     >>>>>>       the safe side, no? > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> * Page 27: > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>        DetNet achieves congestion protection and bounded > >     delivery > >     >>>>> latency by > >     >>>>>>        reserving bandwidth and buffer resources at every > >     hop along the > >     >>>>> path > >     >>>>>>        of the DetNet flow. > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>       Why does this sentence use the word "hop"? As > far as > >     I understand, > >     >>>>> in DetNet > >     >>>>>>       bandwidth and buffer resources are reserved in each > >     DetNet > >     >>>>> intermediate node. > >     >>>>>>       If there were hops over IP routers not being DetNet > >     intermediate > >     >>>>> nodes, no > >     >>>>>>       resources would be reserved there. As per Section > >     4.3.3, it is > >     >>>>> possible to > >     >>>>>>       deploy DetNet this way. And obviously there can be > >     resource > >     >>>>> bottlenecks below > >     >>>>>>       IP, on devices that are not routers... So does > "hop" > >     here refer to > >     >>>>> IP router > >     >>>>>>       hops or also to devices not processing IP (or > IP/MPLS)? > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> * Page 27: > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>        Standard queuing and transmission selection > >     algorithms allow a > >     >>>>>>        central controller to compute the latency > >     contribution of each > >     >>>>>>        transit node to the end-to-end latency, ... > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>       The text does not explain why a _central_ > controller > >     is needed for > >     >>>>> this > >     >>>>>>       computation. Why would a distributed control plane > >     not be able to > >     >>>>> realize > >     >>>>>>       this computation. Isn't this > implementation-specific? > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> * Page 32 > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>       To somebody who is not deeply familiar with > DetNet, it is > >     >>>>> impossible to parse > >     >>>>>>       the description of the examples in Section > 4.7.3. For > >     instance, > >     >>>>> "VID + > >     >>>>>>       multicast MAC address" is not introduced. I think > >     this example > >     >>>>> must be > >     >>>>>>       expaned with additional context and explanation > to be > >     useful to > >     >>>>> readers. > >     >>>>>> * Page 34 > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>        There are three classes of information that a > >     central controller > >     >>>>> or > >     >>>>>>        distributed control plane needs to know that can > >     only be obtained > >     >>>>>>        from the end systems and/or nodes in the network. > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>       Wouldn't it be sufficient to state "Provisioning of > >     DetNet > >     >>>>> requires knowledge > >     >>>>>>       about ...". Does it matter in this context > whether the > >     >>>>> provisioning is done > >     >>>>>>       by a central controller or a distributed control > >     plane? For > >     >>>>> instance, could > >     >>>>>>       the same paragraph also apply to a network that > uses > >     _multiple_ > >     >>>>> central > >     >>>>>>       controllers, or hybrid combinations of central > >     controllers and > >     >>>>> distributed > >     >>>>>>       control planes? In general, an architecture > document > >     should be > >     >>>>> agnostic to > >     >>>>>>       implementation aspects unless there is a specific > >     need. In this > >     >>>>> specific > >     >>>>>>       case, I fail to see a need to discuss the > realization > >     of the > >     >>>>> control plane of > >     >>>>>>       a network. > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> Editorial nits: > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> * Page 9: > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>        The low-level mechanisms described in Section 4.5 > >     provide the > >     >>>>>>        necessary regulation of transmissions by an end > >     system or > >     >>>>>>        intermediate node to provide congestion > protection.  The > >     >>>>> allocation > >     >>>>>>        of the bandwidth and buffers for a DetNet flow > requires > >     >>>>> provisioning > >     >>>>>>        A DetNet node may have other resources requiring > >     allocation > >     >>>>> and/or > >     >>>>>>        scheduling, that might otherwise be > over-subscribed > >     and trigger > >     >>>>> the > >     >>>>>>        rejection of a reservation. > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>       Probably a full stop is missing after > "provisioning". > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> * Page 11: "... along separate (disjoint non-SRLG) > paths ..." > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>       I find this confusing. I would understand e.g. > "along > >     separate > >     >>>>>>       (SRLG-disjoint) paths". > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> * Page 34: > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>        When using a peer- > >     >>>>>>        to-peer control plane, some of this > information may > >     be required > >     >>>>> by a > >     >>>>>>        system's neighbors in the network. > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>       Would "acquired" be a better term? > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> * Page 34: > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>        o  The identity of the system's neighbors, and the > >     >>>>> characteristics of > >     >>>>>>           the link(s) between the systems, including the > >     length (in > >     >>>>>>           nanoseconds) of the link(s). > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>       "Latency" or "delay" would probably be a better > terms > >     if the value > >     >>>>> is > >     >>>>>>       measured in nanoseconds. > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> * Page 35: > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>        DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and > >     as such, does > >     >>>>> not > >     >>>>>>        directly raise any new privacy considerations. > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>>       Broken sentence > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> * Please expand acronyms on first use (e.g., OTN) > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>>>> > >     >>>> _______________________________________________ > >     >>>> detnet mailing list > >     >>>> detnet@ietf.org > > > >     >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > >     _______________________________________________ > >     detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > From nobody Fri Dec 14 16:27:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1131C131394 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 16:27:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dolby.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WVK9dHDuzOPN for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 16:27:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM03-BY2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr780125.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.78.125]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2352C130EED for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 16:27:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dolby.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=c/NQA9ngSX4dOkpaBXyGBZc0zZRy6ogATNj2CB7Fh9U=; b=BYrZrNDn8TWBJOdEYV8bPKvQqAio1EylsdNDgh3x0l2Ic8+4xJl4DVElSlRAjv2bR5szIQYRgb37pnUyo/CCaN2BnrTv7yieQXEOz+jWnczN1J4FHlu9YQoJkdcsEhBnO+T4LKrMr9T5BSSbBnZiLvQMamROVbafWgneNb668wE= Received: from CY1PR0601MB1408.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.163.21.157) by CY1PR0601MB1353.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.161.212.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1404.22; Sat, 15 Dec 2018 00:27:37 +0000 Received: from CY1PR0601MB1408.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cd6:dfe5:24c1:757d]) by CY1PR0601MB1408.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cd6:dfe5:24c1:757d%4]) with mapi id 15.20.1425.021; Sat, 15 Dec 2018 00:27:37 +0000 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: "huang.guangping@zte.com.cn" CC: "detnet@ietf.org" , Ben Campbell Thread-Topic: Re: [Detnet] Question about using blockchain as DetNe use case Thread-Index: AdNefTmgyaH4TMSNTWe00bGvTTMiegASjfkAACGLhdEAEldgAE0cQYmg Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 00:27:37 +0000 Message-ID: References: 3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA56F@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com, 201711161041226835920@zte.com.cn, 3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CEA750@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com <201711171127025317974@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: <201711171127025317974@zte.com.cn> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-dg-ref: =?utf-8?B?UEcxbGRHRStQR0YwSUc1dFBTSnBiV0ZuWlRBd01TNW5hV1lpSUhBOUlpSWdj?= =?utf-8?B?M285SWpBaUlIUTlJakFpSUdnOUlpSWdhV1E5SWlJZ1ltdzlJakFpSUdKdlBT?= =?utf-8?B?SXdJaTgrUEdGMElHNXRQU0pwYldGblpUQXdNaTVuYVdZaUlIQTlJaUlnYzNv?= =?utf-8?B?OUlqQWlJSFE5SWpBaUlHZzlJaUlnYVdROUlpSWdZbXc5SWpBaUlHSnZQU0l3?= 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jouni, Maik, Balazs, Janos (as DetNet Use Cases draft section authors), Please help me out here - I have three remaining IESG review comments that = are domain specific and I couldn't deduce answers for, as follows. Please s= end me some text. Thanks, Ethan (as DetNet Use Cases draft editor). Jouni, Maik: * Section 6.1.5 3GPP networks have some form of admission control to get access to these ti= me sensitive streams. I think that it is important to mention that here * Section 6.2.1. How does CPRI fit the narrative here for the fronthaul? Do you think it fal= ls under the proprietary protocol and framing category? Balazs, Janos: * Section 7.4 What does burstless mean (especially in the context of low packet loss)? ---------------------------------------------- --_000_CY1PR0601MB1408FD124CDE12A8B4980100C4A30CY1PR0601MB1408_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Jouni, Maik, Balazs, Janos (as DetNet Use Cases d= raft section authors),

 

Please help me out here – I have three remaini= ng IESG review comments that are domain specific and I couldn’t deduc= e answers for, as follows. Please send me some text.  

 

Thanks,

Ethan (as DetNet Use Cases draft editor).=

 

Jouni, Maik:

* Section 6.1.5

 

3GPP networks have = some form of admission control to get access to these time sensitive stream= s. I think that it is important to mention that here

 

* Section 6.2.1.

 

How does CPRI fit t= he narrative here for the fronthaul? Do you think it falls under the propri= etary protocol and framing category?

 

Balazs, Janos:

* Section 7.4<= /o:p>

 

What does burstless= mean (especially in the context of low packet loss)?

 

-------------------= ---------------------------

 

 

 

 

 

 

--_000_CY1PR0601MB1408FD124CDE12A8B4980100C4A30CY1PR0601MB1408_-- From nobody Sun Dec 16 02:10:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD5B1131023 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2018 02:10:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i0kMkWtPhaQv for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2018 02:10:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x129.google.com (mail-lf1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0485913101C for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2018 02:10:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id v5so7339442lfe.7 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2018 02:10:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=np8ZC/6dAFxZAbbS78hOyCs0SqXKjyDNzFEmxMCY1Aw=; b=cRUFsQqXQEr2BtnATQMWcG+4JX22uv0YkZAjIQox+7ngL4mPUHSl/cQrVLZzQxvHLw tIPgirfRvkGUDEWr9bjUmQFEkSr2PGwbi8Svo9JdH4/AS84jbeEYKVIzSPiL4AIzaAK/ SXd3YjaIO33eMdCENj7DBB2Vssro5wYpf17McOiVuYwzgn7Ci/bSBfbsF/6NJysL60wY Rt47haYeuPEZqpJDqkuEDkKtPnuRvBKri2YPbjT6hWoYH10zBY+RZrYUHqM5ZCpAq0l0 waA/4zqc+NYLzjmA8czzRRhPMTkxO/hKz5JQde2ynDYz5vd3uVOsmmXfe6ac2e5MIbUJ eDDg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=np8ZC/6dAFxZAbbS78hOyCs0SqXKjyDNzFEmxMCY1Aw=; b=W7eOSR1EBG1MV8oFhcLn8UWZU4ZszpCGSNr/AFWD6JyPeIN9cHFX2G7abLV22tlGSf dEMCbuShTIRC4G7j4kW3TT7TTHDTfODgyZiwh8OY3LevrTTkQt93EoSK1J3zHQQkRMMz 8fYgohDPo8Yt46UtjX3T0MVjOASSN1y/xAj51t8UfCYKlsKyUzvGq+O7Q11vYQjHfvsb yqxP41DedsDwR+huiM7yKBa9dqHzB1H37szIoxPZw4BRkZ7ORvWAxhX4lsoGL/h/eL5Z IsEhoLULmcwTjuxO8cDWtEKjW6OLEYZWnGT6oCtEjaj2aLKkaN2c1x0qIwcvXOhUVTKg X47g== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWaag+Iilf3BVFTT8QxyCWLWvb4zOwIGoJ4HCOEI1xrROQ94OiUV vc3YehmvlVCaeqX/6bA6S+k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/WDjursa30vL1czOK9KdKdMsHKAfm9EFW4opIf5XDxoY64Oy5/XOiRcgizK3OLhkzVtZgOtRg== X-Received: by 2002:a19:690d:: with SMTP id e13mr5058378lfc.84.1544954999173; Sun, 16 Dec 2018 02:09:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:1bc8:101:f150:c66:257c:8626:301c? ([2001:1bc8:101:f150:c66:257c:8626:301c]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k63sm1971987lfe.13.2018.12.16.02.09.57 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 16 Dec 2018 02:09:58 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Jouni In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 12:09:56 +0200 Cc: "jouni@gmail.com" , "Maik Seewald (maseewal)" , =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Varga_A?= , =?utf-8?Q?J=C3=A1nos_Farkas?= , Suresh Krishnan , "detnet@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: "Grossman, Ethan A." X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 10:10:04 -0000 Hi Ethan, See my comments inline: > On 16 Dec 2018, at 7.03, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: >=20 > Hi Jouni, Maik, Balazs, Janos (as DetNet Use Cases draft section = authors), > =20 > Please help me out here =E2=80=93 I have three remaining IESG review = comments that are domain specific and I couldn=E2=80=99t deduce answers = for, as follows. Please send me some text. =20 > =20 > Thanks, > Ethan (as DetNet Use Cases draft editor). > =20 > Jouni, Maik:=20 > * Section 6.1.5 > =20 > 3GPP networks have some form of admission control to get access to = these time sensitive streams. I think that it is important to mention = that here=20 I think 3GPP bearer level admission control is not that trivial. = Transport connections for fronthauls are established and managed = separately from what happens at the bearer level i.e., they are more or = less managed due their static nature.=20 For the mid/backhaul to my recollection(!) the (standardized) admission = control was based radio resources per se, not the transport network = level. That means there is a possibility the admission control check = could succeed at the 3GPP bearer level but then fail or resource = availability assumptions fail at the transport network level. My data = might be outdated what has happened past 6 months in 3GPP regarding this = (ref e.g., slicing and up/cp separation but that is IMHO more for later = sections under 6.x to discuss). I would not add any further text here. > =20 > * Section 6.2.1. > =20 > How does CPRI fit the narrative here for the fronthaul? Do you think = it falls under the proprietary protocol and framing category? Definitely. CPRI does not aim for inter-vendor interoperability in its = own specifications. IMHO no need to mention CPRI here. - Jouni > =20 > Balazs, Janos:=20 > * Section 7.4 > =20 > What does burstless mean (especially in the context of low packet = loss)? > =20 > ---------------------------------------------- > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Sun Dec 16 11:50:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17B8812D4E7 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2018 11:50:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dolby.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2Xeos9ac_kcS for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2018 11:50:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM03-BY2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr780120.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.78.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC1461292F1 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2018 11:50:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dolby.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=yMObvONL2UeiZgowgX5kf5dSULiwOHHJxGYeCYbcqnE=; b=DMAHF5bax4iV+aSgujuSrC9LsMqNa5aO1v//IclYk0kWGY9bssO4SJJPncKcKwgNPpWboRmWZf4+fe+Mh4wSN1unP6nQ/LR5pikWV3848nUXXoE0SU8gl/FhgQyg8Ef0GG5hV5UwUNZD7f4yEECkJ+Ia8vd/D9H2QINegOMHzKs= Received: from CY1PR0601MB1408.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.163.21.157) by CY1PR0601MB1689.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.163.232.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1425.22; Sun, 16 Dec 2018 19:50:19 +0000 Received: from CY1PR0601MB1408.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cd6:dfe5:24c1:757d]) by CY1PR0601MB1408.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cd6:dfe5:24c1:757d%4]) with mapi id 15.20.1425.021; Sun, 16 Dec 2018 19:50:19 +0000 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: Jouni CC: "jouni@gmail.com" , "Maik Seewald (maseewal)" , =?Windows-1252?Q?Bal=E1zs_Varga_A?= , =?Windows-1252?Q?J=E1nos_Farkas?= , Suresh Krishnan , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M Thread-Index: AdSU+5y1fh3Z1DEoSRuflEdc9K3HkgAK+HUAABQ9C1k= Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 19:50:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=eagros@dolby.com; x-originating-ip: [40.67.186.99] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; CY1PR0601MB1689; 6:Tg2AaJzRYC41Mug+IszzYeDROgC5XuZC8q2tXDe6eVTelQTuTsGCo9lKvnfgL9Kx4d07eHfWG+5GVeDe93hXHLN56uicavpJ9E2uyhdF2hJadakz0O7c9NKj36p8C1X4QBlpisV18+dHkbehzM9x6OOFn5gVJaNOBIZzLeG6JRu93Il1c1kEwUf5ia+roGhA7rbFaAsKqQORNH9QKdPYPMmf3vpnVPDeFyp1vPYo1hxCTTeDsxBpQkOyq4yaDPItifQ/WlP0CIRtcld1cCar4hMXoMBwpNVX67NSwEvbXkkG7oFHzNWmlfsmQ/+iUzXN5YuResWPvY0BC2ospYuuzw+oX0yQJhkVdGEBY92VG5696XRvfXTx1DznEdhELpp5bUoaXK1LWIfYRjq6+4SzonMIGp3qRZAezKM+9fjXTmb5fl0IvT0bFGDHopM+KodYOHO+DKQjlSy9zUrziiyEZA==; 5:1ujAp3iA4/+0DcBjuDBaby4taPMC0WMergtPYkqBu7M12CgS+ZY7osotTrr4lvbtym9UYPfq4Qr+WEG+/3l2ISK8SPgF+N5rFdN2xo3gMr1ExBWeQX+bXZ+GHkEBqSnHeNYNMdpPefKT6Be5FqZWGp4f5ilKjoFWKuLfejt3n6A=; 7:VQ7RZdY+ClOHwbPTb1AtLbaSVtE2dPkJM74xSIj7UxDuM/iwRzd6CLpCEpHjW3KnCuMt80Vm3EdstPTMRX9RZw9ycmJDwgSk/eaTreVd1v8AG9EW3kdDa+wMBPWYYFxdqtdI6Tz2v4YcRksIecnebw== x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 0608e29b-8536-424a-69cc-08d6638fb553 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600074)(711020)(2017052603328)(7153060)(7193020); SRVR:CY1PR0601MB1689; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CY1PR0601MB1689: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(3230021)(999002)(6040522)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(10201501046)(3002001)(93006095)(93001095)(3231475)(944501520)(52105112)(148016)(149066)(150057)(6041310)(20161123558120)(20161123564045)(20161123560045)(201703131423095)(201702281528075)(20161123555045)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(20161123562045)(201708071742011)(7699051)(76991095); SRVR:CY1PR0601MB1689; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:CY1PR0601MB1689; x-forefront-prvs: 0888B1D284 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(366004)(396003)(39850400004)(346002)(376002)(136003)(51444003)(189003)(199004)(9686003)(6916009)(25786009)(966005)(478600001)(54906003)(316002)(229853002)(8936002)(86362001)(2906002)(81166006)(81156014)(8676002)(5660300001)(6436002)(68736007)(7696005)(102836004)(74316002)(53936002)(6506007)(106356001)(105586002)(14454004)(6116002)(3846002)(4326008)(53546011)(14444005)(6246003)(66066001)(446003)(26005)(39060400002)(99286004)(97736004)(486006)(476003)(6306002)(54896002)(71200400001)(71190400001)(256004)(33656002)(55016002)(66574012)(7736002)(186003)(76176011)(11346002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR0601MB1689; H:CY1PR0601MB1408.namprd06.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: dolby.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: e9SSgFZGglZeaTpKScOE1RWEY7Cq0W5rmt+4dz3oPFGuCkCmV9L9plZ+jmi9yiojHFttb3GGkkRgFEwjn4LvXjvZ1wP7bP/E9HMpQxGPBTJLL3foF7FQyN5iWGqlDnxaGO69a4+Mr1npVw2p8H8MqhOU+CGapYAamLUthu6C/vJKape2MW7VPDvCaRtDx218upIZhgnV1zM251X0OB6OPfqhwQyrf1NcjtWHC4Nn4ybtD8Bm4HoRsCWyPvEQJewypFdbssit2MP+F9EqshwRXFbHW64re36EwW7XUJW0hweRnA1cbwZMnVRlow3G7sRT spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CY1PR0601MB1408D81647D0274DC3500D1CC4A30CY1PR0601MB1408_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: dolby.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 0608e29b-8536-424a-69cc-08d6638fb553 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Dec 2018 19:50:19.2182 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 05408d25-cd0d-40c8-8962-5462de64a318 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR0601MB1689 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 19:50:25 -0000 --_000_CY1PR0601MB1408D81647D0274DC3500D1CC4A30CY1PR0601MB1408_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Jouni, conclusion is no changes for those two items. Ethan. ________________________________ From: Jouni Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2018 2:10 AM To: Grossman, Ethan A. Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseewal); Bal=E1zs Varga A; J=E1nos Far= kas; Suresh Krishnan; detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Ce= llular Radio and Industrial M2M Hi Ethan, See my comments inline: > On 16 Dec 2018, at 7.03, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > Hi Jouni, Maik, Balazs, Janos (as DetNet Use Cases draft section authors)= , > > Please help me out here =96 I have three remaining IESG review comments t= hat are domain specific and I couldn=92t deduce answers for, as follows. Pl= ease send me some text. > > Thanks, > Ethan (as DetNet Use Cases draft editor). > > Jouni, Maik: > * Section 6.1.5 > > 3GPP networks have some form of admission control to get access to these = time sensitive streams. I think that it is important to mention that here I think 3GPP bearer level admission control is not that trivial. Transport = connections for fronthauls are established and managed separately from what= happens at the bearer level i.e., they are more or less managed due their = static nature. For the mid/backhaul to my recollection(!) the (standardized) admission con= trol was based radio resources per se, not the transport network level. Tha= t means there is a possibility the admission control check could succeed at= the 3GPP bearer level but then fail or resource availability assumptions f= ail at the transport network level. My data might be outdated what has happ= ened past 6 months in 3GPP regarding this (ref e.g., slicing and up/cp sepa= ration but that is IMHO more for later sections under 6.x to discuss). I wo= uld not add any further text here. > > * Section 6.2.1. > > How does CPRI fit the narrative here for the fronthaul? Do you think it f= alls under the proprietary protocol and framing category? Definitely. CPRI does not aim for inter-vendor interoperability in its own = specifications. IMHO no need to mention CPRI here. - Jouni > > Balazs, Janos: > * Section 7.4 > > What does burstless mean (especially in the context of low packet loss)? > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet --_000_CY1PR0601MB1408D81647D0274DC3500D1CC4A30CY1PR0601MB1408_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Jouni, conclusion is no changes for t= hose two items.
Ethan.

 
From: Jou= ni <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2018 2:10 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A.
Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseewal); Bal=E1zs Varga A; J=E1= nos Farkas; Suresh Krishnan; detnet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Commen= ts - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M
 
Hi Ethan,

See my comments inline:

> On 16 Dec 2018, at 7.03, Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com> w= rote:
>
> Hi Jouni, Maik, Balazs, Janos (as DetNet Use Cases draft section autho= rs),
>
> Please help me out here =96 I have three remaining IESG review comment= s that are domain specific and I couldn=92t deduce answers for, as follows.= Please send me some text.
>
> Thanks,
> Ethan (as DetNet Use Cases draft editor).
>
> Jouni, Maik:
> * Section 6.1.5
>
> 3GPP networks have some form of admission control to get access to the= se time sensitive streams. I think that it is important to mention that her= e

I think 3GPP bearer level admission control is not that trivial. Transport = connections for fronthauls are established and managed separately from what= happens at the bearer level i.e., they are more or less managed due their = static nature.

For the mid/backhaul to my recollection(!) the (standardized) admission con= trol was based radio resources per se, not the transport network level. Tha= t means there is a possibility the admission control check could succeed at= the 3GPP bearer level but then fail or resource availability assumptions fail at the transport network le= vel. My data might be outdated what has happened past 6 months in 3GPP rega= rding this (ref e.g., slicing and up/cp separation but that is IMHO more fo= r later sections under 6.x to discuss). I would not add any further text here.


>
> * Section 6.2.1.
>
> How does CPRI fit the narrative here for the fronthaul? Do you think i= t falls under the proprietary protocol and framing category?

Definitely. CPRI does not aim for inter-vendor interoperability in its own = specifications. IMHO no need to mention CPRI here.

- Jouni


>
> Balazs, Janos:
> * Section 7.4
>
> What does burstless mean (especially in the context of low packet loss= )?
>
> ----------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

--_000_CY1PR0601MB1408D81647D0274DC3500D1CC4A30CY1PR0601MB1408_-- From nobody Tue Dec 18 08:21:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA1DF130F08 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 08:21:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.065, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AOQCz_ARErSx for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 08:21:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7879A130EFF for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 08:21:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=ericsson.com; s=mailgw201801; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@ericsson.com; t=1545150069; x=1547742069; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:CC:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=eqlN8A/KbPaEDS0l4/wrAhVSTMAFyEepk1Z8qUTSsiM=; b=d6pcEYwyVxTItNsUDMEXVkS2vCK7PmYrWUw8zkJqR3QTgJiXaQaowKJJAyah7Fcg e6DRbzFKLkxSQAR2vWhcA+BqqPAFOeH0FdNF4Mg+yKBoUM5oYM9ijb3LEnJNTAx/ IReHhgDG4RRC10t0S8/T7j5JXC9JWAcWd8Az1Xdw3WE=; X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-2198b9e00000062f-04-5c191e757f47 Received: from ESESSMB501.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.119]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 5B.F7.01583.57E191C5; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:21:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESBMB501.ericsson.se (153.88.183.168) by ESESSMB501.ericsson.se (153.88.183.162) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:21:03 +0100 Received: from [131.160.183.54] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.184) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 15.1.1466.3 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:21:03 +0100 To: "Grossman, Ethan A." CC: "jouni@gmail.com" , "Maik Seewald (maseewal)" , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= , "detnet@ietf.org" , "Suresh Krishnan" References: From: =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:21:03 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9688EB65FB401921A84F34C9" Content-Language: en-US X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpnkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGbG9XLdUTjLGYHeXiMXvT7NZLPoeb2e3 +Pb3MZPF5YV72C2ObDjL6sDqMeX3RlaPfROPsHjsnHWX3WPJkp9MASxRXDYpqTmZZalF+nYJ XBmH9t1kKtgjVfHw/Dm2BsZ5ol2MnBwSAiYS93teMoHYQgJHGCWm/lTpYuQCsr8xSjzd3MIO 4RxllNh14ig7SJWwQLLEoc+/2LoYOThEBLQljp+2AAkzC3xglPi0XQNiUILEnd79YEPZBOwl 7l7awAxi8wLZB/d8YQGxWQRUJToe7wYbKSoQK/HpymKoGkGJkzOfsICM5xRIlHgzVQxifJjE 7vNnmSBscYlbT+ZD3awm8entQ/YJjIKzkHTPQtIyC0nLLKCpzEBXPNhaBhGWl2jeOpsZwtaX uH7nPiuy+AJG9lWMosWpxcW56UbGeqlFmcnFxfl5enmpJZsYgdFzcMtv3R2Mq187HmIU4GBU 4uHV5JCMEWJNLCuuzD3EKMHBrCTCe6tUIkaINyWxsiq1KD++qDQntfgQozQHi5I47x8hwRgh gfTEktTs1NSC1CKYLBMHp1QDY0Hymp/Lhd7OOLL6sN9KOdGGBg1VXWWmT7Iaba8bgpS+5SyS 4v4gJ7DGzZLHmWfe+snvuMTcPi2c++vcpYY3Fhv4THb9EojftdHx0dEkJ8934l/C79x99Xfh 1cPJ1eqSJmxfmfQ+HTlkd2e1Xzz/V69T6wSe7/RyeRQaMcHhzU6Vo/+rX82S0lFiKc5INNRi LipOBACoLHg8mgIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 16:21:14 -0000 --------------9688EB65FB401921A84F34C9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Ethan, Maybe it is not a god phrase, but the intention with the phrase that the loss should be burstless was that consecutive packets should not be lost. Perhaps the maximum consecutive loss tolerance parameter describes it better in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-02. It is the "maximum number of consecutive packets whose loss can be tolerated" Maybe updating the bullet in the use cases draft to: "Low packet loss (0.1-1 %, limited number of consecutive packets)" ? Regards, Janos On 12/16/2018 6:03 AM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > *_Balazs, Janos: _* > > * Section 7.4 > > What does burstless mean (especially in the context of low packet loss)? > --------------9688EB65FB401921A84F34C9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Ethan,

Maybe it is not a god phrase, but the intention with the phrase that the loss should be burstless was that consecutive packets should not be lost.
Perhaps the maximum consecutive loss tolerance parameter describes it better in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-02. It is the "maximum number of consecutive packets whose loss can be tolerated"

Maybe updating the bullet in the use cases draft to:

"Low packet loss (0.1-1 %, limited number of consecutive packets)"

?

Regards,
Janos

On 12/16/2018 6:03 AM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Balazs, Janos:

* Section 7.4

What does burstless mean (especially in the context of low packet loss)?


--------------9688EB65FB401921A84F34C9-- From nobody Tue Dec 18 08:23:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08324130F07 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 08:23:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.465 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.465 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.065, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lXH43ACGMt_J for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 08:23:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48730130EFF for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 08:23:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=ericsson.com; s=mailgw201801; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@ericsson.com; t=1545150201; x=1547742201; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:CC:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=tkuKJMtKjGcoAnxpPZCoWPMdrTLP+Jj2nVKqGpDEjKY=; b=AWdIGEkc08ElRYXMr3sjaxDvx3qFjs/QSUyq+2R4b+z4p243cjMUBfexkb1diKjw Aizffgg3W5A2l2fPPE7vwSLRmqrqjZYxqEka3PPNHdHto9aA3oNRdWEfXBooaiAJ fDmaBjBK3AKqit8FwS8XITGGCwlFZNVYeqUlBnPqVHE=; X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-167ff7000000672c-58-5c191ef9c402 Received: from ESESSMB505.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.123]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 7C.5A.26412.9FE191C5; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:23:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESBMB504.ericsson.se (153.88.183.171) by ESESSMB505.ericsson.se (153.88.183.166) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:23:20 +0100 Received: from [131.160.183.54] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.187) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 15.1.1466.3 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:23:20 +0100 To: Karl Weber , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" CC: Alissa Cooper , Lou Berger , "draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org" , =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , IESG References: <154404583723.31849.9237514289571618611.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <30F4B465-3062-41C2-B24F-BAB73E137E93@cooperw.in> <113A2AFF-B702-4AC3-875C-012AF1FBA934@cisco.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= Message-ID: <2da2e2e4-39b6-03ba-b160-c0ca7fc8a35c@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:23:19 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6D09760EBA5A15D236BB16D1" Content-Language: en-US X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrFIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7te5POckYg4edzBbTz/xltLjW/4PF 4ven2SwWf1dcZbSY8Wcis8WL6x+ZLfb3XWaz6Gh+y2IxY8o7RgdOj9vvVrB6TPm9kdXjy5OX TB5Llvxk8mj5uJDV48OmZrYAtigum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujCO/lzAWnLvGVLFh202mBsamu4xd jJwcEgImEkcbPjF3MXJxCAkcYZRo+d3NApIQEvjGKHH3QCJE4iijxL5vb5lAEsICmRKzXu5g 62Lk4BARiJH4czYPpIZZ4DKTxJbPf6Em/WaSOHtqFdgkNgF7ibuXNjCD2LxA9p6lU9lBmlkE VCU2dbGChEUFYiU+XVkMVSIocXLmE7BWToEAie6LR8BqmAXCJGZdW8cGYYtL3HoynwniUDWJ T28fsk9gFJyFpH0WkpZZSFogbAuJmfPPM0LY8hLNW2czQ9gaEq1z5rIjiy9gZF/FKFqcWlyc m25kpJdalJlcXJyfp5eXWrKJERiDB7f8ttrBePC54yFGAQ5GJR7ef2ySMUKsiWXFlbmHGCU4 mJVEeG+VSsQI8aYkVlalFuXHF5XmpBYfYpTmYFES5/0jJBgjJJCeWJKanZpakFoEk2Xi4JRq YOyfOuNPx/O451+LUp7rm4ivvCwr+f5u02S/O/F8VaqnUhjiOx8Y99W9djvvzrjxGAfz43q/ JTZb5z7JDWRc7fJwh8sCN/4H1lrbpr5g0n8r5LqfwSNZ/5n326aTL7w2+RivPcw2IVBa+KaY hcP9jWL3lTdtOtV60tc2ISXiUpjg0dOnd0Wd8lFiKc5INNRiLipOBABQMBebvQIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 16:23:28 -0000 --------------6D09760EBA5A15D236BB16D1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, Adding a reference to IEC/IEEE 60802 is fine and would be good. However, we should not go beyond that at this stage with the problem statement draft. Regards, Janos On 12/7/2018 2:55 PM, Karl Weber wrote: > > I would reference to > https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/iec-ieee-60802-tsn-profile-for-industrial-automation/ > industrial use case document, which covers also aspects beyond TSN. > > It is well accepted by a larger group of experts (IEC _and_ IEEE) and > covers quite a few items found in the list below. > > But this is my preferred choice. > > *From:*Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com] > *Sent:* Freitag, 7. Dezember 2018 14:29 > *To:* Karl Weber > *Cc:* Alissa Cooper ; Lou Berger > ; draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org; > Mirja Kühlewind ; Janos Farkas > ; detnet-chairs@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; > IESG > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on > draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) > > Unsure what you are really proposing Karl. > > The claim is correct, automation and AVD want detnet and tsn for > applications like control loops, motion detection and propagation of > digital time/phase sensitive signals. Now, the list of pointers is > agreeably incomplete. > > Could you be more specific on proposed changes ? Are you missing a >  reference you would like to see? > > As it goes the text predates all the work we did in the use cases > draft. Proposal is to replace all the links you quoted by just one on > the detnet use cases. Would that work for you ? > > Regards, > > Pascal > > > Le 7 déc. 2018 à 11:44, Karl Weber > a écrit : > > > Beckhoff Automation GmbH & Co. KG | Managing Director: Dipl. Phys. > Hans Beckhoff > Registered office: Verl, Germany | Register court: Guetersloh HRA 7075 > > Dear all, > > I think that the citation > > Considerable experiencefrom automation and professional audio/video > >    networks (e.g., [ODVA]/[EIP], [AVnu], [Profinet], [HART], [IEC62439], > >    [ISA100.11a] and [WirelessHART]) has shown that … > > _ Is not very helpful_. > > Followed by a list of requirements is very misleading, as many of > the key points in the list (e.g. reliability parameter) cannot be > found in the documents. > > Quite a few widely accepted organizations with networks related to > this requirements are not listed like CPLA/CCLink, CANopen, Sercos > and EtherCAT. > > EtherCAT has a draft profile for TSN with a Liaison to IEEE 802.1 > other do not have that. > > AVnu does not have its own network but uses AVB/TSN. > > IEC62439 is a standard but Profinet is also a standard 61158-10 as > well as many of the others. > > Sometimes organizations sometimes networks or both > > A few of the links are broken or do not show substantial technical > information but marketing material. > > Suggest to provide a better base for the requirement or use other > documents such as industrial use cases from the joint IEEE/IEC > project. > > Karl > > *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of > *Alissa Cooper > *Sent:* Donnerstag, 6. Dezember 2018 15:40 > *To:* Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > *Cc:* Lou Berger >; > draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org > ; Mirja > Kühlewind >; > Janos Farkas >; detnet-chairs@ietf.org > ; detnet@ietf.org > ; IESG > > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on > draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) > > Thanks, the changes LGTM. > > Alissa > > > > > > Beckhoff Automation GmbH & Co. KG | Managing Director: Dipl. Phys. > Hans Beckhoff > Registered office: Verl, Germany | Register court: Guetersloh HRA > 7075 > > On Dec 6, 2018, at 4:55 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > wrote: > > Many thanks, Alissa, > > To Mirja (cc) 's point I modified the bullet and the previous > one as follows: > > o  provide additional reliability through redundancy, in > particular > > with packet Packet Replication, Elimination and Ordering Functions > > (PREOF) where the former may generate an out-of-order delivery > > that may need to be corrected by the latter; > > o  indicate the flows and packet sequences in-band with the flows, > > this is needed for flows that require PREOF in order to isolate > > duplicates and reorder in the end; > > Please see below: > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > COMMENT: > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > I am balloting ABSTAIN, which does not block publication of > this document. I > > > agree with Mirja's first ballot point. Moreover, the document > contains forward- > > > looking statements that will presumably be overtaken by > events in the near > > > future, e.g. the statements about what the IETF will need to > do in Section 1. > > > > > */[PT>]/*Could we reword to something like: “At the time of > this writing, the expectation is thatthe IETF will …” > > The sentence would become > > At the time of this writing, the expectation is thatonce the > >    abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will specify the > signaling > >    elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging > elements to > >    be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along > that path. > > The expectation is alsothat IETF will specify the necessary > >    protocols, or protocol additions, based on relevant IETF > >    technologies, to implement the selected model. > > > Nit: > > > > > > Section 2 says: "Considerable experience ([ODVA]/[EIP],[AVnu], > > > [Profinet],[HART],[IEC62439], [ISA100.11a] and > [WirelessHART], etc...)" > > > > > > It seems like the "etc." should be replaced with an > enumerated list of citations, > > > or a description of what the other experience is that isn't > explicitly listed. > > > > > *//* > > */[PT>] /*Agreed ; what about : > >    Considerable experiencefrom automation and professional audio/video > >    networks (e.g., [ODVA]/[EIP], [AVnu], [Profinet], [HART], [IEC62439], > >    [ISA100.11a] and [WirelessHART]) has shown that … > > *//* > > Please let me know if all this works. > > Again, many thanks Alissa ! > > Pascal > --------------6D09760EBA5A15D236BB16D1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi,

Adding a reference to IEC/IEEE 60802 is fine and would be good. However, we should not go beyond that at this stage with the problem statement draft.

Regards,
Janos


On 12/7/2018 2:55 PM, Karl Weber wrote:

I would reference to https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/iec-ieee-60802-tsn-profile-for-industrial-automation/ industrial use case document, which covers also aspects beyond TSN.

It is well accepted by a larger group of experts (IEC and IEEE) and covers quite a few items found in the list below.

 

But this is my preferred choice.

 

From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com]
Sent: Freitag, 7. Dezember 2018 14:29
To: Karl Weber <karl.weber@beckhoff.com>
Cc: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>; Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>; draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org; Mirja Kühlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>; Janos Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com>; detnet-chairs@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT)

 

Unsure what you are really proposing Karl.

 

The claim is correct, automation and AVD want detnet and tsn for applications like control loops, motion detection and propagation of digital time/phase sensitive signals. Now, the list of pointers is agreeably incomplete.

 

Could you be more specific on proposed changes ? Are you missing a  reference you would like to see?

 

As it goes the text predates all the work we did in the use cases draft. Proposal is to replace all the links you quoted by just one on the detnet use cases. Would that work for you ?

 

Regards,

 

Pascal


Le 7 déc. 2018 à 11:44, Karl Weber <karl.weber@beckhoff.com> a écrit :


Beckhoff Automation GmbH & Co. KG | Managing Director: Dipl. Phys. Hans Beckhoff
Registered office: Verl, Germany | Register court: Guetersloh HRA 7075

Dear all,

 

I think that the citation

Considerable experience from automation and professional audio/video
   networks (e.g., [ODVA]/[EIP], [AVnu], [Profinet], [HART], [IEC62439],
   [ISA100.11a] and [WirelessHART]) has shown that …

 Is not very helpful.

 

Followed by a list of requirements is very misleading, as many of the key points in the list (e.g. reliability parameter) cannot be found in the documents.

 

Quite a few widely accepted organizations with networks related to this requirements are not listed like CPLA/CCLink, CANopen, Sercos and EtherCAT.

EtherCAT has a draft profile for TSN with a Liaison to IEEE 802.1 other do not have that.

 

AVnu does not have its own network but uses AVB/TSN.

IEC62439 is a standard but Profinet is also a standard 61158-10 as well as many of the others.

Sometimes organizations sometimes networks or both

 

A few of the links are broken or do not show substantial technical information but marketing material.

Suggest to provide a better base for the requirement or use other documents such as industrial use cases from the joint IEEE/IEC project.

 

Karl

 

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alissa Cooper
Sent: Donnerstag, 6. Dezember 2018 15:40
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
Cc: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>; draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org; Mirja Kühlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>; Janos Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com>; detnet-chairs@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT)

 

Thanks, the changes LGTM.

 

Alissa





Beckhoff Automation GmbH & Co. KG | Managing Director: Dipl. Phys. Hans Beckhoff
Registered office: Verl, Germany | Register court: Guetersloh HRA 7075

On Dec 6, 2018, at 4:55 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:

 

Many thanks, Alissa,

 

To Mirja (cc) 's point I modified the bullet and the previous one as follows:

 

   o  provide additional reliability through redundancy, in particular

      with packet Packet Replication, Elimination and Ordering Functions

      (PREOF) where the former may generate an out-of-order delivery

      that may need to be corrected by the latter;

 

   o  indicate the flows and packet sequences in-band with the flows,

      this is needed for flows that require PREOF in order to isolate

      duplicates and reorder in the end;

 

 

Please see below:

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> COMMENT:

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> 

> I am balloting ABSTAIN, which does not block publication of this document. I

> agree with Mirja's first ballot point. Moreover, the document contains forward-

> looking statements that will presumably be overtaken by events in the near

> future, e.g. the statements about what the IETF will need to do in Section 1.

> 

[PT>] Could we reword to something like: “At the time of this writing, the expectation is that the IETF will …”

 

The sentence would become

 

   At the time of this writing, the expectation is that once the

   abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will specify the signaling

   elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elements to

   be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path.

   The expectation is also that IETF will specify the necessary

   protocols, or protocol additions, based on relevant IETF

   technologies, to implement the selected model.

 

 

 

> Nit:

> 

> Section 2 says: "Considerable experience ([ODVA]/[EIP],[AVnu],

> [Profinet],[HART],[IEC62439], [ISA100.11a] and [WirelessHART], etc...)"

> 

> It seems like the "etc." should be replaced with an enumerated list of citations,

> or a description of what the other experience is that isn't explicitly listed.

> 

 

[PT>]  Agreed ; what about :

 

   Considerable experience from automation and professional audio/video
   networks (e.g., [ODVA]/[EIP], [AVnu], [Profinet], [HART], [IEC62439],
   [ISA100.11a] and [WirelessHART]) has shown that …

 

 

Please let me know if all this works.

 

Again, many thanks Alissa !

 

Pascal

 


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11:00:06 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: =?utf-8?B?SsOhbm9zIEZhcmthcw==?= , Karl Weber CC: Alissa Cooper , Lou Berger , "draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org" , =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , IESG Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHUjOKzuW9+6Z+bAE2bzZeKBvQV1aVxt9CAgAFT6bCAADwuMIAAbAwAgBFy1oD//6P5sA== Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 16:59:42 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 16:58:57 +0000 Message-ID: <830467e56a554e2bbff0ff5d504c8b3f@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <154404583723.31849.9237514289571618611.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <30F4B465-3062-41C2-B24F-BAB73E137E93@cooperw.in> <113A2AFF-B702-4AC3-875C-012AF1FBA934@cisco.com> <2da2e2e4-39b6-03ba-b160-c0ca7fc8a35c@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <2da2e2e4-39b6-03ba-b160-c0ca7fc8a35c@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Janos, Doesn't 0.1-1% sound like an awful lot of packet loss? Do I understand correctly that you mean: "Low packet loss (0.1-1 % of packets can be lost, but only a bounded number= of consecutive packets can be lost)" I guess I still don't exactly understand the intent, can you please clarify= ? Thanks, and sorry for being dense here. Ethan. From: J=E1nos Farkas Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 8:21 AM To: Grossman, Ethan A. Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseewal) ; Bal=E1zs= Varga A ; detnet@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan Subject: Re: Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Ra= dio and Industrial M2M Hi Ethan, Maybe it is not a god phrase, but the intention with the phrase that the lo= ss should be burstless was that consecutive packets should not be lost. Perhaps the maximum consecutive loss tolerance parameter describes it bette= r in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-0= 2.= It is the "maximum number of consecutive packets whose loss can be tole= rated" Maybe updating the bullet in the use cases draft to: "Low packet loss (0.1-1 %, limited number of consecutive packets)" ? Regards, Janos On 12/16/2018 6:03 AM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: Balazs, Janos: * Section 7.4 What does burstless mean (especially in the context of low packet loss)? --_000_DM6PR06MB5659B678012FDCA7001247DFC4BD0DM6PR06MB5659namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks Janos,<= /o:p>

Doesn’t 0.1-1= % sound like an awful lot of packet loss?

Do I understand cor= rectly that you mean:

"Low packet loss (0.1-1 % of packets can be los= t, but only a bounded number of consecutive packets can be lost)"=

 

I guess I still don’t exactly understand the i= ntent, can you please clarify?
Thanks, and sorry for being dense here.

Ethan.

 

From:= J=E1nos Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsson.= com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 8:21 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>
Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseewal) <maseewal@cisco.com&= gt;; Bal=E1zs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; detnet@ietf.org;= Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cell= ular Radio and Industrial M2M

 

Hi Ethan,

Maybe it is not a god phrase, but the intention with the phrase that the lo= ss should be burstless was that consecutive packets should not be lost.
Perhaps the maximum consecutive loss tolerance parameter describes it bette= r in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-02= . It is the "maximum    number of consecutive packets w= hose loss can be tolerated"

Maybe updating the bullet in the use cases draft to:

"Low packet loss (0.1-1 %, limited number of consecutive packets)"= ;

?

Regards,
Janos

On 12/16/2018 6:03 AM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Balazs, Janos:

* Section 7.4

 

What does burstless mean (especially in the context of low pac= ket loss)?

 

 

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Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:24:11 +0100 Received: from ESESSMB502.ericsson.se (153.88.183.163) by ESESBMR501.ericsson.se (153.88.183.129) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:24:11 +0100 Received: from [131.160.183.54] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.190) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 15.1.1466.3 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:24:10 +0100 To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" CC: Karl Weber , Alissa Cooper , Lou Berger , "draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org" , =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , IESG References: <154404583723.31849.9237514289571618611.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <30F4B465-3062-41C2-B24F-BAB73E137E93@cooperw.in> <113A2AFF-B702-4AC3-875C-012AF1FBA934@cisco.com> <2da2e2e4-39b6-03ba-b160-c0ca7fc8a35c@ericsson.com> <830467e56a554e2bbff0ff5d504c8b3f@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= Message-ID: <418aec17-be32-561e-63af-b955ec3f1bb2@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:24:10 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <830467e56a554e2bbff0ff5d504c8b3f@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D4017D236579E6527968BDE2" Content-Language: en-US X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrFIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7iW62hVSMweQWG4vpZ/4yWlzr/8Fi 8fvTbBaLvyuuMlrM+DOR2eLF9Y/MFvv7LrNZdDS/ZbGYMeUdowOnx+13K1g9pvzeyOrx5clL Jo8lS34yebR8XMjq8WFTM1sAWxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxq2edsaClWeYKyZ8/sHUwPhrCVMX IyeHhICJxNbVnxi7GLk4hASOMEr8+r2ICcL5xiixonUWK5zTP3MjC4RzlFHi/uGl7CD9wgKZ ErNe7mADsUWAZm04+RpsFrPATyaJsxtOQA1+wywx8etjsA42AXuJu5c2MIPYvEB28/o7YHEW AVWJ79vfgU0SFYiV+HRlMVSNoMTJmU9YQGxOAVeJO23HwWxmgTCJO7fPsULY4hK3nswH+0hI QE3ifcMdxgmMQrOQtM9C0jILSQuEbSExc/55RghbXqJ562xmCFtDonXOXHZk8QWM7KsYRYtT i5Ny042M9FKLMpOLi/Pz9PJSSzYxAmP04JbfBjsYXz53PMQowMGoxMNbbCAVI8SaWFZcmXuI UYKDWUmE94YJUIg3JbGyKrUoP76oNCe1+BCjNAeLkjjvHyHBGCGB9MSS1OzU1ILUIpgsEwen VAOj8fa/2z52X51ns6rv4ds3MuzMM6acsUtW57gtcc1bt7L0hsvHHRrXNoVVaeyScWaylFmr qpRuerEsh+np5PZioXesOxXP//633mRbrIx7r4zEnu+3IlWX+bbezfUW/7eKsfbiUv6DHf93 l6mf9EiaO2HfmdUTAmV+/vvlx5wwUaO7W/Dl4z43JZbijERDLeai4kQA0UzSfs0CAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:24:22 -0000 --------------D4017D236579E6527968BDE2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Pascal, The proposal is good. Sorry, I missed it somehow. Thank you, Janos On 12/18/2018 5:59 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > Hello János : > > The proposal on the table is to change the text as follows: > > Before: > > Considerable experience ([ODVA]/[EIP],[AVnu], > >    [Profinet],[HART],[IEC62439], [ISA100.11a] and [WirelessHART], > >    etc...) has shown that these applications need a some or all of a > >    suite of features that includes: > > after: > > The Deterministic Networking Use Cases [I-D.ietf-detnet-use-cases] > >    document indicates that applications in multiple fields need some or > >    all of a suite of features that includes: > > The point is that the reference to 60802 should really be in section 3 > of the use cases draft, where this and many other cases are referenced, > > Does that work? I’m ready to publish that change as -09. > > All the best, > > Pascal > > *From:*János Farkas > *Sent:* mardi 18 décembre 2018 17:23 > *To:* Karl Weber ; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > *Cc:* Alissa Cooper ; Lou Berger > ; draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org; > Mirja Kühlewind ; detnet-chairs@ietf.org; > detnet@ietf.org; IESG > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on > draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) > > Hi, > > Adding a reference to IEC/IEEE 60802 is fine and would be good. > However, we should not go beyond that at this stage with the problem > statement draft. > > Regards, > Janos > > On 12/7/2018 2:55 PM, Karl Weber wrote: > > I would reference to > https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/iec-ieee-60802-tsn-profile-for-industrial-automation/ > industrial use case document, which covers also aspects beyond TSN. > > It is well accepted by a larger group of experts (IEC _and_ IEEE) > and covers quite a few items found in the list below. > > But this is my preferred choice. > > *From:*Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com] > *Sent:* Freitag, 7. Dezember 2018 14:29 > *To:* Karl Weber > > *Cc:* Alissa Cooper > ; Lou Berger > ; > draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org > ; Mirja > Kühlewind ; > Janos Farkas > ; detnet-chairs@ietf.org > ; detnet@ietf.org > ; IESG > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on > draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) > > Unsure what you are really proposing Karl. > > The claim is correct, automation and AVD want detnet and tsn for > applications like control loops, motion detection and propagation > of digital time/phase sensitive signals. Now, the list of pointers > is agreeably incomplete. > > Could you be more specific on proposed changes ? Are you missing a >  reference you would like to see? > > As it goes the text predates all the work we did in the use cases > draft. Proposal is to replace all the links you quoted by just one > on the detnet use cases. Would that work for you ? > > Regards, > > Pascal > > > Le 7 déc. 2018 à 11:44, Karl Weber > a écrit : > > > Beckhoff Automation GmbH & Co. KG | Managing Director: Dipl. Phys. > Hans Beckhoff > Registered office: Verl, Germany | Register court: Guetersloh HRA 7075 > > Dear all, > > I think that the citation > > Considerable experiencefrom automation and professional audio/video > >    networks (e.g., [ODVA]/[EIP], [AVnu], [Profinet], [HART], [IEC62439], > >    [ISA100.11a] and [WirelessHART]) has shown that … > > _ Is not very helpful_. > > Followed by a list of requirements is very misleading, as many > of the key points in the list (e.g. reliability parameter) > cannot be found in the documents. > > Quite a few widely accepted organizations with networks > related to this requirements are not listed like CPLA/CCLink, > CANopen, Sercos and EtherCAT. > > EtherCAT has a draft profile for TSN with a Liaison to IEEE > 802.1 other do not have that. > > AVnu does not have its own network but uses AVB/TSN. > > IEC62439 is a standard but Profinet is also a standard > 61158-10 as well as many of the others. > > Sometimes organizations sometimes networks or both > > A few of the links are broken or do not show substantial > technical information but marketing material. > > Suggest to provide a better base for the requirement or use > other documents such as industrial use cases from the joint > IEEE/IEC project. > > Karl > > *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of > *Alissa Cooper > *Sent:* Donnerstag, 6. Dezember 2018 15:40 > *To:* Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > *Cc:* Lou Berger >; > draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org > ; Mirja > Kühlewind >; > Janos Farkas >; detnet-chairs@ietf.org > ; detnet@ietf.org > ; IESG > > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on > draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) > > Thanks, the changes LGTM. > > Alissa > > > > > > > Beckhoff Automation GmbH & Co. KG | Managing Director: Dipl. > Phys. Hans Beckhoff > Registered office: Verl, Germany | Register court: Guetersloh > HRA 7075 > > On Dec 6, 2018, at 4:55 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > wrote: > > Many thanks, Alissa, > > To Mirja (cc) 's point I modified the bullet and the > previous one as follows: > > o  provide additional reliability through redundancy, in > particular > > with packet Packet Replication, Elimination and Ordering > Functions > > (PREOF) where the former may generate an out-of-order delivery > > that may need to be corrected by the latter; > > o  indicate the flows and packet sequences in-band with > the flows, > > this is needed for flows that require PREOF in order to > isolate > > duplicates and reorder in the end; > > Please see below: > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > COMMENT: > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > I am balloting ABSTAIN, which does not block publication > of this document. I > > > agree with Mirja's first ballot point. Moreover, the > document contains forward- > > > looking statements that will presumably be overtaken by > events in the near > > > future, e.g. the statements about what the IETF will need > to do in Section 1. > > > > > */[PT>]/*Could we reword to something like: “At the time > of this writing, the expectation is thatthe IETF will …” > > The sentence would become > > At the time of this writing, the expectation is thatonce the > >    abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will specify > the signaling > >    elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging > elements to > >    be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded > along that path. > > The expectation is alsothat IETF will specify the necessary > >    protocols, or protocol additions, based on relevant IETF > >    technologies, to implement the selected model. > > > Nit: > > > > > > Section 2 says: "Considerable experience > ([ODVA]/[EIP],[AVnu], > > > [Profinet],[HART],[IEC62439], [ISA100.11a] and > [WirelessHART], etc...)" > > > > > > It seems like the "etc." should be replaced with an > enumerated list of citations, > > > or a description of what the other experience is that > isn't explicitly listed. > > > > > *//* > > */[PT>] /*Agreed ; what about : > >    Considerable experiencefrom automation and professional audio/video > >    networks (e.g., [ODVA]/[EIP], [AVnu], [Profinet], [HART], [IEC62439], > >    [ISA100.11a] and [WirelessHART]) has shown that … > > *//* > > Please let me know if all this works. > > Again, many thanks Alissa ! > > Pascal > --------------D4017D236579E6527968BDE2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Pascal,

The proposal is good.
Sorry, I missed it somehow.

Thank you,
Janos


On 12/18/2018 5:59 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:

Hello János :

 

The proposal on the table is to change the text as follows:

 

Before:

   Considerable experience ([ODVA]/[EIP],[AVnu],

   [Profinet],[HART],[IEC62439], [ISA100.11a] and [WirelessHART],

   etc...) has shown that these applications need a some or all of a

   suite of features that includes:

 

after:

   The Deterministic Networking Use Cases [I-D.ietf-detnet-use-cases]

   document indicates that applications in multiple fields need some or

   all of a suite of features that includes:

 

The point is that the reference to 60802 should really be in section 3 of the use cases draft, where this and many other cases are referenced,

Does that work? I’m ready to publish that change as -09.

 

All the best,

 

Pascal

 

From: János Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com>
Sent: mardi 18 décembre 2018 17:23
To: Karl Weber <karl.weber@beckhoff.com>; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
Cc: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>; Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>; draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org; Mirja Kühlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>; detnet-chairs@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT)

 

Hi,

Adding a reference to IEC/IEEE 60802 is fine and would be good. However, we should not go beyond that at this stage with the problem statement draft.

Regards,
Janos

On 12/7/2018 2:55 PM, Karl Weber wrote:

I would reference to https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/iec-ieee-60802-tsn-profile-for-industrial-automation/ industrial use case document, which covers also aspects beyond TSN.

It is well accepted by a larger group of experts (IEC and IEEE) and covers quite a few items found in the list below.

 

But this is my preferred choice.

 

From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com]
Sent: Freitag, 7. Dezember 2018 14:29
To: Karl Weber <karl.weber@beckhoff.com>
Cc: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>; Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>; draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org; Mirja Kühlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>; Janos Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com>; detnet-chairs@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT)

 

Unsure what you are really proposing Karl.

 

The claim is correct, automation and AVD want detnet and tsn for applications like control loops, motion detection and propagation of digital time/phase sensitive signals. Now, the list of pointers is agreeably incomplete.

 

Could you be more specific on proposed changes ? Are you missing a  reference you would like to see?

 

As it goes the text predates all the work we did in the use cases draft. Proposal is to replace all the links you quoted by just one on the detnet use cases. Would that work for you ?

 

Regards,

 

Pascal


Le 7 déc. 2018 à 11:44, Karl Weber <karl.weber@beckhoff.com> a écrit :


Beckhoff Automation GmbH & Co. KG | Managing Director: Dipl. Phys. Hans Beckhoff
Registered office: Verl, Germany | Register court: Guetersloh HRA 7075

Dear all,

 

I think that the citation

Considerable experience from automation and professional audio/video
   networks (e.g., [ODVA]/[EIP], [AVnu], [Profinet], [HART], [IEC62439],
   [ISA100.11a] and [WirelessHART]) has shown that …

 Is not very helpful.

 

Followed by a list of requirements is very misleading, as many of the key points in the list (e.g. reliability parameter) cannot be found in the documents.

 

Quite a few widely accepted organizations with networks related to this requirements are not listed like CPLA/CCLink, CANopen, Sercos and EtherCAT.

EtherCAT has a draft profile for TSN with a Liaison to IEEE 802.1 other do not have that.

 

AVnu does not have its own network but uses AVB/TSN.

IEC62439 is a standard but Profinet is also a standard 61158-10 as well as many of the others.

Sometimes organizations sometimes networks or both

 

A few of the links are broken or do not show substantial technical information but marketing material.

Suggest to provide a better base for the requirement or use other documents such as industrial use cases from the joint IEEE/IEC project.

 

Karl

 

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alissa Cooper
Sent: Donnerstag, 6. Dezember 2018 15:40
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
Cc: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>; draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org; Mirja Kühlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>; Janos Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com>; detnet-chairs@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT)

 

Thanks, the changes LGTM.

 

Alissa






Beckhoff Automation GmbH & Co. KG | Managing Director: Dipl. Phys. Hans Beckhoff
Registered office: Verl, Germany | Register court: Guetersloh HRA 7075

On Dec 6, 2018, at 4:55 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:

 

Many thanks, Alissa,

 

To Mirja (cc) 's point I modified the bullet and the previous one as follows:

 

   o  provide additional reliability through redundancy, in particular

      with packet Packet Replication, Elimination and Ordering Functions

      (PREOF) where the former may generate an out-of-order delivery

      that may need to be corrected by the latter;

 

   o  indicate the flows and packet sequences in-band with the flows,

      this is needed for flows that require PREOF in order to isolate

      duplicates and reorder in the end;

 

 

Please see below:

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> COMMENT:

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> 

> I am balloting ABSTAIN, which does not block publication of this document. I

> agree with Mirja's first ballot point. Moreover, the document contains forward-

> looking statements that will presumably be overtaken by events in the near

> future, e.g. the statements about what the IETF will need to do in Section 1.

> 

[PT>] Could we reword to something like: “At the time of this writing, the expectation is that the IETF will …”

 

The sentence would become

 

   At the time of this writing, the expectation is that once the

   abstract model is agreed upon, the IETF will specify the signaling

   elements to be used to establish a path and the tagging elements to

   be used identify the flows that are to be forwarded along that path.

   The expectation is also that IETF will specify the necessary

   protocols, or protocol additions, based on relevant IETF

   technologies, to implement the selected model.

 

 

 

> Nit:

> 

> Section 2 says: "Considerable experience ([ODVA]/[EIP],[AVnu],

> [Profinet],[HART],[IEC62439], [ISA100.11a] and [WirelessHART], etc...)"

> 

> It seems like the "etc." should be replaced with an enumerated list of citations,

> or a description of what the other experience is that isn't explicitly listed.

> 

 

[PT>]  Agreed ; what about :

 

   Considerable experience from automation and professional audio/video
   networks (e.g., [ODVA]/[EIP], [AVnu], [Profinet], [HART], [IEC62439],
   [ISA100.11a] and [WirelessHART]) has shown that …

 

 

Please let me know if all this works.

 

Again, many thanks Alissa !

 

Pascal

 

 


--------------D4017D236579E6527968BDE2-- From nobody Wed Dec 19 06:12:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBBB712867A for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 06:12:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eaPgVm4W3RiE for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 06:12:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from know-smtprelay-omc-6.server.virginmedia.net (know-smtprelay-omc-6.server.virginmedia.net [80.0.253.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEC2E1200B3 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 06:12:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.37] ([79.64.220.62]) by cmsmtp with ESMTPA id Zca3gwB0MBbWYZca3g6Edr; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 14:12:12 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [79.64.220.62] X-Authenticated-User: john.s.grant@ntlworld.com X-Spam: 0 X-Authority: v=2.3 cv=Z7TC4kZA c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=/z0XdV0zd6JNGfriKbvufg==:117 a=/z0XdV0zd6JNGfriKbvufg==:17 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=le6d79QuAAAA:8 a=_DC7OUD3A6tW0mH8YYwA:9 a=szf4JMlDjtsJt4Ko:21 a=TDr02KccyfzlixKR:21 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 a=UqCG9HQmAAAA:8 a=1PPSAmhThdHwY5Zv1XwA:9 a=EXTtKaJy4sKETQ1U:21 a=XCpXENLN_ZobvB1f:21 a=BHGngQkmD7r4pzOb:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=QbAMNLWdp4a7deKPGBBn:22 To: detnet@ietf.org References: From: John Grant Message-ID: <4bea41e6-18c9-91a2-8152-27cd7636bfaf@ninetiles.com> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 14:12:12 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1AF18C3A544EA92AE72AC55E" Content-Language: en-GB X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfJFQtBPogDrX2y1MwGMhBlzp2rM+VOipsgx/Lc6d4LpJBaOdIACtksvBHtHoacGtAL2Z1pA5zamigEnJr3alzOXSxLdOFSBTF7wvcsYeCU2VV+Tv0+yo AcdW+yBc1Y89urhZJyOrjWmp4VVBpdlJqX+52aOPPnxBRXZaHPW8itxk Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 14:12:18 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1AF18C3A544EA92AE72AC55E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 18/12/2018 19:31, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > Thanks Janos, > > Doesnt 0.1-1% sound like an awful lot of packet loss? > > Do I understand correctly that you mean: > > "Low packet loss (0.1-1 % of packets can be lost, but only a bounded > number of consecutive packets can be lost)" > > I guess I still dont exactly understand the intent, can you please > clarify? > It looks to me as if it's assumed that forward error correction will be needed. If you know you won't lose two consecutive packets, you can design the FEC around that assumption. On the other hand, if the network can reserve enough resource to ensure that level of service, you'd think it could manage to arrange that you don't lose any, except in very rare circumstances such as equipment malfunction. If the idea is to allow for interference on a radio link, I don't see how you can ensure that no burst of interference is long enough to affect two consecutive packets. -- John Grant Nine Tiles, Cambridge, England +44 1223 862599 and +44 1223 511455 http://www.ninetiles.com --------------1AF18C3A544EA92AE72AC55E Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 18/12/2018 19:31, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Thanks Janos,

Doesnt 0.1-1% sound like an awful lot of packet loss?

Do I understand correctly that you mean:

"Low packet loss (0.1-1 % of packets can be lost, but only a bounded number of consecutive packets can be lost)"

I guess I still dont exactly understand the intent, can you please clarify?

It looks to me as if it's assumed that forward error correction will be needed. If you know you won't lose two consecutive packets, you can design the FEC around that assumption. On the other hand, if the network can reserve enough resource to ensure that level of service, you'd think it could manage to arrange that you don't lose any, except in very rare circumstances such as equipment malfunction. If the idea is to allow for interference on a radio link, I don't see how you can ensure that no burst of interference is long enough to affect two consecutive packets.
-- 
John Grant
Nine Tiles, Cambridge, England
+44 1223 862599 and +44 1223 511455
http://www.ninetiles.com
--------------1AF18C3A544EA92AE72AC55E-- From nobody Wed Dec 19 07:46:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02DAC130E12; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 07:46:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.89.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: detnet@ietf.org Message-ID: <154523439395.2816.18148872502311377012@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 07:46:34 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 15:46:45 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking WG of the IETF. Title : Deterministic Networking Architecture Authors : Norman Finn Pascal Thubert Balázs Varga János Farkas Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10.txt Pages : 42 Date : 2018-12-19 Abstract: This document provides the overall architecture for Deterministic Networking (DetNet), which provides a capability to carry specified unicast or multicast data flows for real-time applications with extremely low data loss rates and bounded latency within a network domain. Techniques used include: 1) reserving data plane resources for individual (or aggregated) DetNet flows in some or all of the intermediate nodes along the path of the flow; 2) providing explicit routes for DetNet flows that do not immediately change with the network topology; and 3) distributing data from DetNet flow packets over time and/or space to ensure delivery of each packet's data in spite of the loss of a path. DetNet operates at the IP layer and delivers service over sub-network technologies such as MPLS and IEEE 802.1 Time-Sensitive Networking (TSN). The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Dec 19 07:53:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EB11129508 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 07:53:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.366 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.366 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.065, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iBdlaYIqrnx3 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 07:53:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 542C5130E1A for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 07:53:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=ericsson.com; s=mailgw201801; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@ericsson.com; t=1545234826; x=1547826826; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=r6MLiBKio764V+745dWDlRlITyDKQx5CNXcB8Azr+e8=; b=bjFvsxo6QoRoex2Yj05yEYKFPzXQz+wJX4Hq8BjdGqhGZcoEc1u3rceh2jCpSuBR n/AODsL4u3o2dPCTbg8mL4+OmHVybGwU5aBENZ0mr/V5igermXmcCe6yntj+0rdF 9Ytrl1p300dD2zPh0EP59U+XSA2sTPqxC9twLQ4fG7I=; X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-d9dff7000000062f-39-5c1a698a3865 Received: from ESESBMB505.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.118]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 74.6F.01583.A896A1C5; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:53:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMR506.ericsson.se (153.88.183.128) by ESESBMB505.ericsson.se (153.88.183.118) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:53:45 +0100 Received: from ESESBMB504.ericsson.se (153.88.183.171) by ESESSMR506.ericsson.se (153.88.183.128) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:53:45 +0100 Received: from [131.160.183.54] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.187) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 15.1.1466.3 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:53:45 +0100 To: DetNet WG From: =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:53:45 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrOLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7mW5XplSMwduvLBa/P81mcWD0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxrmn15kLDnNUNL6dytzAuIa9i5GDQ0LAROLXWpEuRi4OIYEj jBKzT89jhnC+MUpc/7IdyOGEcHZNloBIHGWU+LHiGBNIQkRAXqKx9zM7iM0mYC9x99IGsAZh AS2JCYdawOK8QPEH/T/A6lkEVCUurrrDBmKLCsRKfLqymBmiRlDi5MwnLCA2s4CFxMz55xkh bHmJ7W/nMEPY4hK3nsxngjhITeJ9wx3GCYwCs5C0z0LSPgtJ+ywk7QsYWVYxihanFhfnphsZ 66UWZSYXF+fn6eWllmxiBAbnwS2/dXcwrn7teIhRgINRiYeXN1oqRog1say4MvcQowQHs5II 7w0ToBBvSmJlVWpRfnxRaU5q8SFGaQ4WJXHeP0KCMUIC6YklqdmpqQWpRTBZJg5OqQZG1l4R kf/vXRa9myVxOW+VrGX89w7xcP2Wl+L3+f+rfXix13b/S+Gi3aLGog9/W1otPxrAdXFlN6/9 +vONU+QiZt69lS0Y23rq/yn2H3nLMpw/yMxW7vDnDVkZePYwyyfPeUExCR0XjPT+bY780XNw 0sflCovDcjpl05jXW52vWrzu5roOEVl1JZbijERDLeai4kQA1dywdEoCAAA= Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 15:53:50 -0000 Hi, The DetNet architecture document has been updated to address the comments. The new revision (v10) is available at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10. There have been a number of discussion items emails on the list. The updates are along the major discussion items, which also cover the derivative discussions, address the comments. The major items have been summarized in: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg01968.html. Follow up discussions implied terminology changes summarized in: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg02036.html: replace "transport sub-layer" with "forwarding sub-layer" https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg02038.html: replace "congestion protection" with "resource" allocation" Consequently, the document had a good 'scurb". In addition, outstanding comments have been addressed along https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg01943.html. Please let us know if any comment happened to be remained open. Best regards, Janos From nobody Wed Dec 19 08:10:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA2E0130E3B; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 08:10:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.89.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: detnet@ietf.org Message-ID: <154523585484.30428.1503654379225856840@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 08:10:54 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-09.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:10:55 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking WG of the IETF. Title : Deterministic Networking Problem Statement Authors : Norman Finn Pascal Thubert Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-09.txt Pages : 11 Date : 2018-12-19 Abstract: This paper documents the needs in various industries to establish multi-hop paths for characterized flows with deterministic properties. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-09 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-09 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-09 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Dec 19 08:12:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 595DB130E2B for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 08:12:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.366 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.366 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.065, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ONtVYl89SdH1 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 08:12:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DDAE12D4F2 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 08:12:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=ericsson.com; s=mailgw201801; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@ericsson.com; t=1545235951; x=1547827951; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:CC:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=m4b4oRkykAHIxT4z2lk8DXWGUju5K25t7R0Ia0UU8mE=; b=UG3dx/v9uVeYApSGeCvAQeqZZ/7OYiOu+uTY8QFFh/LG02NSv8Zxxfri0uPZ0pKl J+Kv8w+8itWo7xRALACv12lny012yTZd/lIMhr5dpl8KxVF20SB62p11YLuzN5FG pW4hMKKljK9ZbE07Gi6hBhzXNpIma3U3iYoVRPOigPE=; X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f93ff7000000355c-a8-5c1a6defa7e0 Received: from ESESSMB505.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.123]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id E1.71.13660.FED6A1C5; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:12:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB502.ericsson.se (153.88.183.163) by ESESSMB505.ericsson.se (153.88.183.166) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:12:31 +0100 Received: from [131.160.183.54] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.190) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 15.1.1466.3 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:12:30 +0100 To: "Grossman, Ethan A." CC: "jouni@gmail.com" , "Maik Seewald (maseewal)" , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= , "detnet@ietf.org" , "Suresh Krishnan" References: From: =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:12:30 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------49BAFA1B9671AA3A54515BD4" Content-Language: en-US X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFupgkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGbG9Wvd9rlSMQc8iOYvfn2azWPQ93s5u 8e3vYyaLywv3sFsc2XCW1YHVY8rvjawe+yYeYfHYOesuu8eSJT+ZAliiuGxSUnMyy1KL9O0S uDJm79jEUvA/tmLe7TOMDYzbvLsYOTgkBEwkNj7I72Lk5BASOMIoMasJyOYCsr8xSkz9dYwR wjnKKNHw+AsbSJWwQLLEoc+/2ECaRQS0JY6ftgAJMwt8YJT4tF0Dov4lkN17jwkkwSZgL3H3 0gZmEJsXyN58cRYriM0ioCqxZ9ciFhBbVCBW4tOVxVA1ghInZz4Bi3MCxZ93vWeGWBAmMWHB JCYIW1zi1pP5TBBXq0l8evuQfQKj4Cwk7bOQtMxC0jIL6GxmoDMebC2DCMtLNG+dzQxh60tc v3OfFVl8ASP7KkbR4tTipNx0IyO91KLM5OLi/Dy9vNSSTYzA+Dm45bfBDsaXzx0PMQpwMCrx 8G6PkooRYk0sK67MPcQowcGsJMJ7wwQoxJuSWFmVWpQfX1Sak1p8iFGag0VJnPePkGCMkEB6 YklqdmpqQWoRTJaJg1OqgdEtjlXrWL77ZJtyJSEFv8YjbLfmRXu35LJtfP58+iRPbdVut2zr PzPb1fR19cQ3rza5sas39AB7yY0T6jeuHeO/2czRvzZrWa1Wct+Z2zI3Dti+4pKOl4n6d3Wb V6fFF4VX/QXTA7zunbjSsUj0/RY9z+wHk2oqC7ffyUs+sVDPp9xl41vHFCWW4oxEQy3mouJE AAaiXMqbAgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:12:37 -0000 --------------49BAFA1B9671AA3A54515BD4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just tried to resolve the concern around burstless. Actually, the numbers may not be right. Checking IEC/IEEE 60802 contributions https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/iec-ieee-60802-tsn-profile-for-industrial-automation/ Use Cases: http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/60802-industrial-use-cases-0918-v13.pdf and traffic type characterization: http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/60802-ademaj-traffic-type-characterization-1118-v01.pdf indicate that the most stringent requirement is zero loss. The next one is how many consecutive packets may be lost There are more relaxed cases. This section is: 7.4. Industrial M2M Asks Maybe we should focus on the stringent cases. What about updating the bullet to: "Low packet loss (e.g., zero, limited number of consecutive packets)" ? Regards, Janos On 12/18/2018 8:31 PM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > Thanks Janos, > > Doesnt 0.1-1% sound like an awful lot of packet loss? > > Do I understand correctly that you mean: > > "Low packet loss (0.1-1 % of packets can be lost, but only a bounded > number of consecutive packets can be lost)" > > I guess I still dont exactly understand the intent, can you please > clarify? > Thanks, and sorry for being dense here. > > Ethan. > > *From:*Jnos Farkas > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 18, 2018 8:21 AM > *To:* Grossman, Ethan A. > *Cc:* jouni@gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseewal) ; > Balzs Varga A ; detnet@ietf.org; Suresh > Krishnan > *Subject:* Re: Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - > Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M > > Hi Ethan, > > Maybe it is not a god phrase, but the intention with the phrase that > the loss should be burstless was that consecutive packets should not > be lost. > Perhaps the maximum consecutive loss tolerance parameter describes it > better in > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-02 > . > It is the "maximum number of consecutive packets whose loss can be > tolerated" > > Maybe updating the bullet in the use cases draft to: > > "Low packet loss (0.1-1 %, limited number of consecutive packets)" > > ? > > Regards, > Janos > > On 12/16/2018 6:03 AM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > *_Balazs, Janos: _* > > * Section 7.4 > > What does burstless mean (especially in the context of low packet > loss)? > --------------49BAFA1B9671AA3A54515BD4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just tried to resolve the concern around burstless.

Actually, the numbers may not be right.

Checking IEC/IEEE 60802 contributions
https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/iec-ieee-60802-tsn-profile-for-industrial-automation/

Use Cases: http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/60802-industrial-use-cases-0918-v13.pdf
and traffic type characterization: http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/60802-ademaj-traffic-type-characterization-1118-v01.pdf
indicate that the most stringent requirement is zero loss.
The next one is how many consecutive packets may be lost
There are more relaxed cases.

This section is: 7.4. Industrial M2M Asks

Maybe we should focus on the stringent cases.

What about updating the bullet to:

"Low packet loss (e.g., zero, limited number of consecutive packets)"

?

Regards,
Janos



On 12/18/2018 8:31 PM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Thanks Janos,

Doesnt 0.1-1% sound like an awful lot of packet loss?

Do I understand correctly that you mean:

"Low packet loss (0.1-1 % of packets can be lost, but only a bounded number of consecutive packets can be lost)"

I guess I still dont exactly understand the intent, can you please clarify?
Thanks, and sorry for being dense here.

Ethan.

From: Jnos Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 8:21 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>
Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseewal) <maseewal@cisco.com>; Balzs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; detnet@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M

Hi Ethan,

Maybe it is not a god phrase, but the intention with the phrase that the loss should be burstless was that consecutive packets should not be lost.
Perhaps the maximum consecutive loss tolerance parameter describes it better in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-02. It is the "maximum number of consecutive packets whose loss can be tolerated"

Maybe updating the bullet in the use cases draft to:

"Low packet loss (0.1-1 %, limited number of consecutive packets)"

?

Regards,
Janos

On 12/16/2018 6:03 AM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Balazs, Janos:

* Section 7.4

What does burstless mean (especially in the context of low packet loss)?


--------------49BAFA1B9671AA3A54515BD4-- From nobody Wed Dec 19 08:39:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E639B130E85; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 08:39:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KdrOGr8_5121; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 08:39:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4AE24130E95; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 08:39:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=9884; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1545237547; x=1546447147; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=AU8j1fAnKpUd4M2BLdw0jr/uwoljzNSySGglvgaQBbo=; b=ZSf5Kg2uf/fZ0s17MPXqdCeDEi7PRbeNgyC5Bcx3AZohZVHfpQy3vCg1 1Whiq1zUANSzOhBHKcbIyTVqPKxZT9ZPSrAimPmyZ8n29ie4RIjyzcz3x Pn7VxwsKFbrf5ffdqSogAzzYCYrql2DAT4BXUkQAYNXn2E8KMZjuJ8PxE A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AEAADUchpc/4sNJK1kGgEBAQEBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEHAgEBAQGBUQUBAQEBCwGBDXZmgQIxjAyLfJQPhVuBewsBAYRsgm0iNAk?= =?us-ascii?q?NAQMBAQIBAQJtKIVwRQcSARYEZhcPAQQODYMbgR1kqW2KMIw/F4FAP48DAos?= =?us-ascii?q?/hAGGV4sdCQKKFodCIIFehR+KXJlbAhEUgScfOIFWcBWDKJBaQY15gR8BAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.56,373,1539648000"; d="scan'208,217";a="215452930" Received: from alln-core-6.cisco.com ([173.36.13.139]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 19 Dec 2018 16:39:06 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com (xch-aln-003.cisco.com [173.36.7.13]) by alln-core-6.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id wBJGd59j026480 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:39:06 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com (173.36.7.13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:39:05 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:39:05 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Alvaro Retana CC: Lou Berger , "draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org" , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , IESG Thread-Topic: Alvaro Retana's Yes on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AdSXuP6nkrFqrXoQSP+RxuZMnH6z9Q== Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:38:57 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:38:05 +0000 Message-ID: <70f06a054a6c4fa4881ad54d61a0bc2a@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_70f06a054a6c4fa4881ad54d61a0bc2aXCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.13, xch-aln-003.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-6.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Alvaro Retana's Yes on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:39:23 -0000 --_000_70f06a054a6c4fa4881ad54d61a0bc2aXCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Alvaro : I was digging the datatracker and found the following comment from you: " Given the close relationship between this document and draft-ietf-detnet-us= e-cases, I think that it would have been beneficial to produce a single doc= ument. As it stands neither one normatively references the other. draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-09 says it better: The Deterministic Networking Problem Statement [I-D.ietf-detnet-problem-statement] introduces Deterministic Networking, and Deterministic Networking Use Cases [I-D.ietf-detnet-use-cases] summarizes the need for it. I'm sorry I cannot remember seeing this comment before, and I could not dig= it in my mail client, so I do not know what happened with it. As it goes, the problem statement precedes the architecture document and ca= nnot really reference it normatively. On the other hand the problem statement is a consequence of the use case dr= aft so it is heavily based on it. Still there is a forward note that references it, so we do have a reference= . Forward note: The DetNet Architecture [I-D.ietf-detnet-architecture] is the document produced by the DetNet WG to describe that model. But in general when we mention a DetNet architecture we present it as an ab= stract architecture to be defined as opposed to work already done, so we ab= stained to have a reference to the architecture draft. More than that seems artificial and I'm tempted to leave things as is. If y= ou think it is important then I'm OK add a sentence or modify the one quote= d above in the next editions. Please let us know if that's OK? Pascal --_000_70f06a054a6c4fa4881ad54d61a0bc2aXCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Alvaro :

 

I was digging the datatracker a= nd found the following comment from you:

“

Given the clo= se relationship between this document and draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases, I th= ink that it would have been beneficial to produce a single document.  As it stands neither one normatively references t= he other.

 

draft-ietf-de= tnet-architecture-09 says it better:

 

   = The Deterministic Networking Problem Statement

   = [I-D.ietf-detnet-problem-statement] introduces Deterministic

   = Networking, and Deterministic Networking Use Cases

   = [I-D.ietf-detnet-use-cases] summarizes the need for it.

I’m sorry I cannot rememb= er seeing this comment before, and I could not dig it in my mail client, so= I do not know what happened with it.

 

As it goes, the problem stateme= nt precedes the architecture document and cannot really reference it normat= ively.

On the other hand the problem s= tatement is a consequence of the use case draft so it is heavily based on i= t.

 

Still there is a forward note t= hat references it, so we do have a reference.

      &= nbsp;          Forward note: T= he DetNet Architecture

   [I-D.ietf-detnet-archite= cture] is the document produced by the DetNet

   WG to describe that mode= l.

 

 

But in general when we mention = a DetNet architecture we present it as an abstract architecture to be defin= ed as opposed to work already done, so we abstained to have a reference to = the architecture draft.

 

More than that seems artificial= and I’m tempted to leave things as is. If you think it is important = then I’m OK add a sentence or modify the one quoted above in the next= editions.

 

Please let us know if that̵= 7;s OK?

 

Pascal

 

 

--_000_70f06a054a6c4fa4881ad54d61a0bc2aXCHRCD001ciscocom_-- From nobody Wed Dec 19 08:45:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2576F130E62; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 08:45:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.491 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.491 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7qAcRsU5stOm; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 08:45:08 -0800 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Dec 2018 10:45:05 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: =?utf-8?B?SsOhbm9zIEZhcmthcw==?= CC: Karl Weber , Alissa Cooper , Lou Berger , "draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org" , =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , IESG Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHUjOKzuW9+6Z+bAE2bzZeKBvQV1aVxt9CAgAFT6bCAADwuMIAAbAwAgBFy1oD//6P5sIABq4oA///a0aA= Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:44:58 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:44:49 +0000 Message-ID: <3495e6564aae4f44a3f1456755e6a94b@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <154404583723.31849.9237514289571618611.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <30F4B465-3062-41C2-B24F-BAB73E137E93@cooperw.in> <113A2AFF-B702-4AC3-875C-012AF1FBA934@cisco.com> <2da2e2e4-39b6-03ba-b160-c0ca7fc8a35c@ericsson.com> <830467e56a554e2bbff0ff5d504c8b3f@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <418aec17-be32-561e-63af-b955ec3f1bb2@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <418aec17-be32-561e-63af-b955ec3f1bb2@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3495e6564aae4f44a3f1456755e6a94bXCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.15, xch-rcd-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:45:12 -0000 --_000_3495e6564aae4f44a3f1456755e6a94bXCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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PC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_3495e6564aae4f44a3f1456755e6a94bXCHRCD001ciscocom_-- From nobody Wed Dec 19 08:51:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90ED1130E54 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 08:51:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) 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XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:51:35 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E1nos_Farkas?= , "Grossman, Ethan A." CC: "jouni@gmail.com" , Suresh Krishnan , "detnet@ietf.org" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Varga_A?= , "Maik Seewald (maseewal)" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M Thread-Index: AQHUl7WvHqsPXbYGrEq3xUVQ6BqknqWGRPZA Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:50:18 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:49:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_ffa69772d1ef41538401e5e38e42e08eXCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.15, xch-rcd-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:51:42 -0000 --_000_ffa69772d1ef41538401e5e38e42e08eXCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello J=E1nos I agree to change the sentence. Zero is not reasonable in the real world, e= ven in wired space : ) What about "Low packet loss (e.g., one in a million, one in a billion, min time betwe= en losses, min packets between losses, strictly bounded number of consecuti= ve losses)" Maybe that's too many examples but when you look up the (old) art of "relia= bility " you end up with terms such as MTBF... All the best Pascal From: detnet On Behalf Of J=E1nos Farkas Sent: mercredi 19 d=E9cembre 2018 17:13 To: Grossman, Ethan A. Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Suresh Krishnan ; detnet@ie= tf.org; Bal=E1zs Varga A ; Maik Seewald (masee= wal) Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Ce= llular Radio and Industrial M2M I just tried to resolve the concern around burstless. Actually, the numbers may not be right. Checking IEC/IEEE 60802 contributions https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/iec-ieee-60802-tsn-profile-for-industrial-automat= ion/ Use Cases: http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/60802-industrial-= use-cases-0918-v13.pdf and traffic type characterization: http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/do= cs2018/60802-ademaj-traffic-type-characterization-1118-v01.pdf indicate that the most stringent requirement is zero loss. The next one is how many consecutive packets may be lost There are more relaxed cases. This section is: 7.4. Industrial M2M Asks Maybe we should focus on the stringent cases. What about updating the bullet to: "Low packet loss (e.g., zero, limited number of consecutive packets)" ? Regards, Janos On 12/18/2018 8:31 PM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: Thanks Janos, Doesn't 0.1-1% sound like an awful lot of packet loss? Do I understand correctly that you mean: "Low packet loss (0.1-1 % of packets can be lost, but only a bounded number= of consecutive packets can be lost)" I guess I still don't exactly understand the intent, can you please clarify= ? Thanks, and sorry for being dense here. Ethan. From: J=E1nos Farkas Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 8:21 AM To: Grossman, Ethan A. Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseewal) ; Bal=E1zs Varga A ; detnet@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan Subject: Re: Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Ra= dio and Industrial M2M Hi Ethan, Maybe it is not a god phrase, but the intention with the phrase that the lo= ss should be burstless was that consecutive packets should not be lost. Perhaps the maximum consecutive loss tolerance parameter describes it bette= r in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-0= 2.= It is the "maximum number of consecutive packets whose loss can be tole= rated" Maybe updating the bullet in the use cases draft to: "Low packet loss (0.1-1 %, limited number of consecutive packets)" ? Regards, Janos On 12/16/2018 6:03 AM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: Balazs, Janos: * Section 7.4 What does burstless mean (especially in the context of low packet loss)? --_000_ffa69772d1ef41538401e5e38e42e08eXCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello  J=E1nos

 

I ag= ree to change the sentence. Zero is not reasonable in the real world, even = in wired space : ) What about

=
"Low packet loss (e.g.,  one in a million, one in a billion, min = time between losses, min packets between losses, strictly bounded number of= consecutive losses)"

= Maybe that’s too many examples but when you look up the (old) art of = “reliability “ you end up with terms such as MTBF…= =

All the best

 

Pascal

 

F= rom: detnet <= detnet-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of J=E1nos Farkas
Sent: mercredi 19 d=E9cembre 2018 17:13
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>
Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com&g= t;; detnet@ietf.org; Bal=E1zs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; = Maik Seewald (maseewal) <maseewal@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Commen= ts - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M

 

= I just tried to resolve the concern around burstless.

Actually, the numbers may not be right.

Checking IEC/IEEE 60802 contributions
https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/iec-= ieee-60802-tsn-profile-for-industrial-automation/

Use Cases: http://www.i= eee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/60802-industrial-use-cases-0918-v13.pdf<= /span>
and traffic type characterization: http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/= 60802-ademaj-traffic-type-characterization-1118-v01.pdf
indicate that the most stringent requirement is zero loss.
The next one is how many consecutive packets may be lost
There are more relaxed cases.

This section is: 7.4.  Industrial M2M Asks

Maybe we should focus on the stringent cases.

What about updating the bullet to:

"Low packet loss (e.g., zero, limited number of consecutive packets)&q= uot;

?

Regards,
Janos

On 12/18/2018 8:31 PM, Grossman= , Ethan A. wrote:

Than= ks Janos,

Does= n’t 0.1-1% sound like an awful lot of packet loss?

Do I= understand correctly that you mean:=

"Low packet loss (0.1-1 % = of packets can be lost, but only a bounded number of consecutive packets ca= n be lost)"

 

I guess I still don’t exa= ctly understand the intent, can you please clarify?
Thanks, and sorry fo= r being dense here.

Etha= n.

&nbs= p;

F= rom: J=E1nos Far= kas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com>=
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 8:21 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>= ;
Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseewal) <maseewal@cisco.com>; Bal=E1zs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>= ; = detnet@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>=
Subject: Re: Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cell= ular Radio and Industrial M2M=

 

= Hi Ethan,

Maybe it is not a god phrase, but the intention with the phrase that the lo= ss should be burstless was that consecutive packets should not be lost.
Perhaps the maximum consecutive loss tolerance parameter describes it bette= r in https://tools.ietf.o= rg/html/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-02. It is the "maximum    number of consecutive packets wh= ose loss can be tolerated"

Maybe updating the bullet in the use cases draft to:

"Low packet loss (0.1-1 %, limited number of consecutive packets)"= ;

?

Regards,
Janos

On 12/16/2018 6:03 AM, Grossman= , Ethan A. wrote:

Balazs, Janos:

* Section 7.4<= /p>

 

What does burstless mean (especially in the context of low p= acket loss)?

 

 

 

--_000_ffa69772d1ef41538401e5e38e42e08eXCHRCD001ciscocom_-- From nobody Wed Dec 19 08:58:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9181F130E71 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 08:58:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.366 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.366 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.065, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TbvnbwnuEDHm for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 08:58:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA233130E62 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 08:58:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=ericsson.com; s=mailgw201801; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@ericsson.com; t=1545238680; x=1547830680; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:CC:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=HaAxJSgrrKQ+QumpVIsQn2SCj+eeKsIRV+8UnRQGQRo=; b=aBSlKQwGzSNswOzOoSxljFXM0N5R/e15NfTZooDt8GZKBb0smN5N2nVuvfwPYZq7 ccNMOUZpQPcFPlaeo5/fIzYVMrKys2Vy1i+W+YggmeTwUU78GexLCH81nnEvno6J k83hQ3expciIs3P0ssxb1QcOLSFgeIOHdqhyGb+ISvk=; X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-14fff7000000672c-5d-5c1a789766b5 Received: from ESESBMB504.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.117]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id C7.8C.26412.7987A1C5; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:58:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMR505.ericsson.se (153.88.183.127) by ESESBMB504.ericsson.se (153.88.183.117) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:57:59 +0100 Received: from ESESBMB503.ericsson.se (153.88.183.170) by ESESSMR505.ericsson.se (153.88.183.127) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1466.3; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:57:59 +0100 Received: from [131.160.183.54] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.186) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 15.1.1466.3 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:57:58 +0100 To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Grossman, Ethan A." CC: "jouni@gmail.com" , Suresh Krishnan , "detnet@ietf.org" , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=c3=a1zs_Varga_A?= , "Maik Seewald (maseewal)" References: From: =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= Message-ID: <9fe3ec20-5623-acc6-46a3-22215beca7cb@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:57:58 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1C2A653ABC069A635FB61B93" Content-Language: en-US X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprHIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7qe6MCqkYgyvTGC1+f5rNYtH3eDu7 xbe/j5ksLi/cw24xY8o7RosjG86yOrB5TPm9kdVj38QjLB47Z91l91iy5CdTAEsUl01Kak5m WWqRvl0CV8arfddYCuYsZ6y4tf4sUwNjZ3UXIyeHhICJxIqGFvYuRi4OIYEjjBK7P+1ihnC+ MUpMX/+ZHc75/vM4VOYoo8S3ngZmkH5hgRyJ5ccmg9kiAvES/RvuMoEUMQu8Y5S4/WUiVMct Jon+o5dYQarYBOwl7l7aANbBC2T/WnKQDcRmEVCVeHLyFViNqECsxKcri6FqBCVOznzC0sXI wcEp4Crx7SonSJhZIEzizKuvrBC2uMStJ/OZQGwhATWJ9w13GCcwCs1C0j0LScssJC2zgKYy A13xYGsZRFheonnrbGYIW1/i+p37rMjiCxjZVzGKFqcWF+emGxnppRZlJhcX5+fp5aWWbGIE xtrBLb+tdjAefO54iFGAg1GJh/dcvlSMEGtiWXFl7iFGCQ5mJRHeGyZAId6UxMqq1KL8+KLS nNTiQ4zSHCxK4rx/hARjhATSE0tSs1NTC1KLYLJMHJxSDYya/fYzb0148E6+NPhd6srVqbuq Vr4/bD6z5b/RpD83PRfobH9ZNy9w9Z/FdjWRmo9qt3SHx7vF16izfJ96ir9c1GSuL9vPfB9j B/Gbxi+u33/33/vW8/Ov3L+K7H1wcwfr82/xax3EclOmy/oGHJzBksrZfmNqu2nbm2J180M7 7QJmK9b1bhBXYinOSDTUYi4qTgQAfOO5FLECAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:58:17 -0000 --------------1C2A653ABC069A635FB61B93 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well, I'd not enter MTBF discussion at this stage. It is just example in the brackets. What about skipping numbers to get: "Low packet loss (e.g., limited number of consecutive packets)" ? The special aspect brought in really is the aspect of consecutive packets. Regards, Janos On 12/19/2018 5:50 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > Hello Jnos > > I agree to change the sentence. Zero is not reasonable in the real > world, even in wired space : ) What about > > > "Low packet loss (e.g., one in a million, one in a billion, min time > between losses, min packets between losses, strictly bounded number of > consecutive losses)" > > Maybe thats too many examples but when you look up the (old) art of > reliability you end up with terms such as MTBF > > All the best > > Pascal > > *From:*detnet *On Behalf Of *Jnos Farkas > *Sent:* mercredi 19 dcembre 2018 17:13 > *To:* Grossman, Ethan A. > *Cc:* jouni@gmail.com; Suresh Krishnan ; > detnet@ietf.org; Balzs Varga A ; Maik > Seewald (maseewal) > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft > Comments - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M > > I just tried to resolve the concern around burstless. > > Actually, the numbers may not be right. > > Checking IEC/IEEE 60802 contributions > https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/iec-ieee-60802-tsn-profile-for-industrial-automation/ > > Use Cases: > http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/60802-industrial-use-cases-0918-v13.pdf > and traffic type characterization: > http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/60802-ademaj-traffic-type-characterization-1118-v01.pdf > indicate that the most stringent requirement is zero loss. > The next one is how many consecutive packets may be lost > There are more relaxed cases. > > This section is: 7.4. Industrial M2M Asks > > Maybe we should focus on the stringent cases. > > What about updating the bullet to: > > "Low packet loss (e.g., zero, limited number of consecutive packets)" > > ? > > Regards, > Janos > > On 12/18/2018 8:31 PM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > Thanks Janos, > > Doesnt 0.1-1% sound like an awful lot of packet loss? > > Do I understand correctly that you mean: > > "Low packet loss (0.1-1 % of packets can be lost, but only a > bounded number of consecutive packets can be lost)" > > I guess I still dont exactly understand the intent, can you > please clarify? > Thanks, and sorry for being dense here. > > Ethan. > > *From:*Jnos Farkas > > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 18, 2018 8:21 AM > *To:* Grossman, Ethan A. > *Cc:* jouni@gmail.com ; Maik Seewald > (maseewal) ; > Balzs Varga A > ; detnet@ietf.org > ; Suresh Krishnan > > *Subject:* Re: Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - > Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M > > Hi Ethan, > > Maybe it is not a god phrase, but the intention with the phrase > that the loss should be burstless was that consecutive packets > should not be lost. > Perhaps the maximum consecutive loss tolerance parameter describes > it better in > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-02 > . > It is the "maximum number of consecutive packets whose loss can > be tolerated" > > Maybe updating the bullet in the use cases draft to: > > "Low packet loss (0.1-1 %, limited number of consecutive packets)" > > ? > > Regards, > Janos > > On 12/16/2018 6:03 AM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: > > *_Balazs, Janos: _* > > * Section 7.4 > > What does burstless mean (especially in the context of low > packet loss)? > --------------1C2A653ABC069A635FB61B93 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well, I'd not enter MTBF discussion at this stage.

It is just example in the brackets. What about skipping numbers to get:

"Low packet loss (e.g., limited number of consecutive packets)"

?

The special aspect brought in really is the aspect of consecutive packets.

Regards,
Janos

On 12/19/2018 5:50 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:

Hello Jnos

I agree to change the sentence. Zero is not reasonable in the real world, even in wired space : ) What about


"Low packet loss (e.g., one in a million, one in a billion, min time between losses, min packets between losses, strictly bounded number of consecutive losses)"

Maybe thats too many examples but when you look up the (old) art of reliability you end up with terms such as MTBF

All the best

Pascal

From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jnos Farkas
Sent: mercredi 19 dcembre 2018 17:13
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>
Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>; detnet@ietf.org; Balzs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; Maik Seewald (maseewal) <maseewal@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M

I just tried to resolve the concern around burstless.

Actually, the numbers may not be right.

Checking IEC/IEEE 60802 contributions
https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/iec-ieee-60802-tsn-profile-for-industrial-automation/

Use Cases: http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/60802-industrial-use-cases-0918-v13.pdf
and traffic type characterization: http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/60802-ademaj-traffic-type-characterization-1118-v01.pdf
indicate that the most stringent requirement is zero loss.
The next one is how many consecutive packets may be lost
There are more relaxed cases.

This section is: 7.4. Industrial M2M Asks

Maybe we should focus on the stringent cases.

What about updating the bullet to:

"Low packet loss (e.g., zero, limited number of consecutive packets)"

?

Regards,
Janos

On 12/18/2018 8:31 PM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Thanks Janos,

Doesnt 0.1-1% sound like an awful lot of packet loss?

Do I understand correctly that you mean:

"Low packet loss (0.1-1 % of packets can be lost, but only a bounded number of consecutive packets can be lost)"

I guess I still dont exactly understand the intent, can you please clarify?
Thanks, and sorry for being dense here.

Ethan.

From: Jnos Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 8:21 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>
Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseewal) <maseewal@cisco.com>; Balzs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; detnet@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M

Hi Ethan,

Maybe it is not a god phrase, but the intention with the phrase that the loss should be burstless was that consecutive packets should not be lost.
Perhaps the maximum consecutive loss tolerance parameter describes it better in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-02. It is the "maximum number of consecutive packets whose loss can be tolerated"

Maybe updating the bullet in the use cases draft to:

"Low packet loss (0.1-1 %, limited number of consecutive packets)"

?

Regards,
Janos

On 12/16/2018 6:03 AM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Balazs, Janos:

* Section 7.4

What does burstless mean (especially in the context of low packet loss)?


--------------1C2A653ABC069A635FB61B93-- From nobody Wed Dec 19 09:01:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D221130E70 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 09:01:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.566 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.566 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.065, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4Yql8Iw3RO7a for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 09:01:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 690B5130E6D for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 09:01:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=20015; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1545238868; x=1546448468; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=MuII1oyfcC/+uSs59N7bmzRD+4reI8H+H5kjHZJwudM=; b=BvhNMkW6+0NWF6pViM1D63EgMNlpheFx49VRsuCHMLIlCvVL3NQWbq/Y Rpyf1fNMTn6lG5dvxIyzTHwD1QdnowPYBBBpef408Ettlsn14HLmkEkUm xPIIjCvZb+30Cvjiy1DjCF/aCE6oz8PFhCxIJMGsQB8v66PDce8kloWwD I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ADAAC2eBpc/4kNJK1kGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAQGBUQQBAQEBAQsBgQ12ZoECJwqMDIt8gg2JFY5IgXsLAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?ihEoCgmsiNAkNAQMBAQIBAQJtHAyFPAEBAQEBAi1HBRACAQgRBAEBKAchERQ?= =?us-ascii?q?JCAIEDgUIgxuBHUwDFQ+pUx+EDgEDAg4BAg8tAYMFDYIdjD8XgUA/gRGCFFA?= =?us-ascii?q?uglciJQEBAQEBF4EgXQiFIQKLP4QBXoV5imozCQKHDochgykggV5NhFKKXIl?= =?us-ascii?q?IhHmBE4oHAhEUgScfOIFWcBWDJwmBblmDOIUUhT9BMQEBjBiBLoEfAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.56,373,1539648000"; d="scan'208,217";a="497302238" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 19 Dec 2018 17:01:06 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-002.cisco.com (xch-rcd-002.cisco.com [173.37.102.12]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id wBJH16Ep004378 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:01:06 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-002.cisco.com (173.37.102.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 11:01:05 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 11:01:05 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E1nos_Farkas?= , "Grossman, Ethan A." CC: "jouni@gmail.com" , Suresh Krishnan , "detnet@ietf.org" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Varga_A?= , "Maik Seewald (maseewal)" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M Thread-Index: AQHUl7WvHqsPXbYGrEq3xUVQ6BqknqWGRPZAgABoMAD//5u4wA== Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:00:58 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:00:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9fe3ec20-5623-acc6-46a3-22215beca7cb@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <9fe3ec20-5623-acc6-46a3-22215beca7cb@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_fe360490b91a4fbfb5223e23869904adXCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.12, xch-rcd-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:01:13 -0000 --_000_fe360490b91a4fbfb5223e23869904adXCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Works for me, this is essential. From: J=E1nos Farkas Sent: mercredi 19 d=E9cembre 2018 17:58 To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; Grossman, Ethan A. Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Suresh Krishnan ; detnet@ie= tf.org; Bal=E1zs Varga A ; Maik Seewald (masee= wal) Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Ce= llular Radio and Industrial M2M Well, I'd not enter MTBF discussion at this stage. It is just example in the brackets. What about skipping numbers to get: "Low packet loss (e.g., limited number of consecutive packets)" ? The special aspect brought in really is the aspect of consecutive packets. Regards, Janos On 12/19/2018 5:50 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: Hello J=E1nos I agree to change the sentence. Zero is not reasonable in the real world, e= ven in wired space : ) What about "Low packet loss (e.g., one in a million, one in a billion, min time betwe= en losses, min packets between losses, strictly bounded number of consecuti= ve losses)" Maybe that's too many examples but when you look up the (old) art of "relia= bility " you end up with terms such as MTBF... All the best Pascal From: detnet On B= ehalf Of J=E1nos Farkas Sent: mercredi 19 d=E9cembre 2018 17:13 To: Grossman, Ethan A. Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Suresh Krishnan ; detnet@ietf.org; Bal=E1zs Varga A ; Maik Seewald (maseewal) Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Ce= llular Radio and Industrial M2M I just tried to resolve the concern around burstless. Actually, the numbers may not be right. Checking IEC/IEEE 60802 contributions https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/iec-ieee-60802-tsn-profile-for-industrial-automat= ion/ Use Cases: http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/60802-industrial-= use-cases-0918-v13.pdf and traffic type characterization: http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/do= cs2018/60802-ademaj-traffic-type-characterization-1118-v01.pdf indicate that the most stringent requirement is zero loss. The next one is how many consecutive packets may be lost There are more relaxed cases. This section is: 7.4. Industrial M2M Asks Maybe we should focus on the stringent cases. What about updating the bullet to: "Low packet loss (e.g., zero, limited number of consecutive packets)" ? Regards, Janos On 12/18/2018 8:31 PM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: Thanks Janos, Doesn't 0.1-1% sound like an awful lot of packet loss? Do I understand correctly that you mean: "Low packet loss (0.1-1 % of packets can be lost, but only a bounded number= of consecutive packets can be lost)" I guess I still don't exactly understand the intent, can you please clarify= ? Thanks, and sorry for being dense here. Ethan. From: J=E1nos Farkas Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 8:21 AM To: Grossman, Ethan A. Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseewal) ; Bal=E1zs Varga A ; detnet@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan Subject: Re: Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Ra= dio and Industrial M2M Hi Ethan, Maybe it is not a god phrase, but the intention with the phrase that the lo= ss should be burstless was that consecutive packets should not be lost. Perhaps the maximum consecutive loss tolerance parameter describes it bette= r in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-0= 2.= It is the "maximum number of consecutive packets whose loss can be tole= rated" Maybe updating the bullet in the use cases draft to: "Low packet loss (0.1-1 %, limited number of consecutive packets)" ? Regards, Janos On 12/16/2018 6:03 AM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: Balazs, Janos: * Section 7.4 What does burstless mean (especially in the context of low packet loss)? --_000_fe360490b91a4fbfb5223e23869904adXCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Works for me, this is essential.

 

F= rom: J=E1nos Far= kas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com>
Sent: mercredi 19 d=E9cembre 2018 17:58
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; Grossman, = Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>
Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com&g= t;; detnet@ietf.org; Bal=E1zs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; = Maik Seewald (maseewal) <maseewal@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Commen= ts - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M

 

Well, I'd not enter M= TBF discussion at this stage.

It is just example in the brackets. What about skipping numbers to get:

"Low packet loss (e.g., limited number of consecutive packets)"
?

The special aspect brought in really is the aspect of consecutive packets.<= br>
Regards,
Janos

On 12/19/2018 5:50 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wro= te:

Hello  J=E1nos

&nbs= p;

I ag= ree to change the sentence. Zero is not reasonable in the real world, even = in wired space : ) What about

=
"Low packet loss (e.g.,  one in a million, one in a billion, min = time between losses, min packets between losses, strictly bounded number of= consecutive losses)"

= Maybe that’s too many examples but when you look up the (old) art of = “reliability “ you end up with terms such as MTBF…=

All the best

 

Pascal

 

F= rom: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org><= /a> On Behalf Of J=E1nos Farkas
Sent: mercredi 19 d=E9cembre 2018 17:13
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagro= s@dolby.com>
Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Suresh K= rishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>; d= etnet@ietf.org; Bal=E1zs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.= com>; Maik Seewald (maseewal) <maseewal@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Commen= ts - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M

 

= I just tried to resolve the concern around burstless.

Actually, the numbers may not be right.

Checking IEC/IEEE 60802 contributions
https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/iec-= ieee-60802-tsn-profile-for-industrial-automation/

Use Cases: http://www.i= eee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/60802-industrial-use-cases-0918-v13.pdf<= /span>
and traffic type characterization: http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/= 60802-ademaj-traffic-type-characterization-1118-v01.pdf
indicate that the most stringent requirement is zero loss.
The next one is how many consecutive packets may be lost
There are more relaxed cases.

This section is: 7.4.  Industrial M2M Asks

Maybe we should focus on the stringent cases.

What about updating the bullet to:

"Low packet loss (e.g., zero, limited number of consecutive packets)&q= uot;

?

Regards,
Janos


On 12/18/2018 8:31 PM, Grossman= , Ethan A. wrote:

Than= ks Janos,

Does= n’t 0.1-1% sound like an awful lot of packet loss?

Do I= understand correctly that you mean:

"Low packet loss (0.1-1 % = of packets can be lost, but only a bounded number of consecutive packets ca= n be lost)"

 

I guess I still don’t exa= ctly understand the intent, can you please clarify?
Thanks, and sorry fo= r being dense here.

Etha= n.

&nbs= p;

F= rom: J=E1nos Far= kas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com>=
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 8:21 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>= ;
Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseewal) <maseewal@cisco.com>; Bal=E1zs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>= ; = detnet@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>=
Subject: Re: Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cell= ular Radio and Industrial M2M

 

= Hi Ethan,

Maybe it is not a god phrase, but the intention with the phrase that the lo= ss should be burstless was that consecutive packets should not be lost.
Perhaps the maximum consecutive loss tolerance parameter describes it bette= r in https://tools.ietf.o= rg/html/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-02. It is the "maximum    number of consecutive packets wh= ose loss can be tolerated"

Maybe updating the bullet in the use cases draft to:

"Low packet loss (0.1-1 %, limited number of consecutive packets)"= ;

?

Regards,
Janos

On 12/16/2018 6:03 AM, Grossman= , Ethan A. wrote:

Balazs, Janos:

* Section 7.4

 

What does burstless mean (especially in the context o= f low packet loss)?

 

 

 

 

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CC: "jouni@gmail.com" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Varga_A?= , "detnet@ietf.org" , "Suresh Krishnan" Thread-Topic: Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M Thread-Index: AdSU+5y1fh3Z1DEoSRuflEdc9K3HkgCug4M3AA5XfgA= Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:03:23 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.6.150930 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.60.162.74] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D84037DF78457maseewalciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 64.101.220.142, xch-rtp-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-12.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:03:39 -0000 --_000_D84037DF78457maseewalciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable J=E1nos, There is the traffic type isochronous with no tolerance to packet loss. The IIC contribution recently presented mandates this as well. Cheers, Maik From: Janos Farkas > Date: Wednesday, 19. December 2018 at 17:12 To: "Grossman, Ethan A." > Cc: "jouni@gmail.com" >, Cisco Employee = >, Bal=E1zs Varga A >, "detnet@ietf.org" >, Suresh Krishnan > Subject: Re: Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Ra= dio and Industrial M2M I just tried to resolve the concern around burstless. Actually, the numbers may not be right. Checking IEC/IEEE 60802 contributions https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/iec-ieee-60802-tsn-profile-for-industrial-automat= ion/ Use Cases: http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/60802-industrial-= use-cases-0918-v13.pdf and traffic type characterization: http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/do= cs2018/60802-ademaj-traffic-type-characterization-1118-v01.pdf indicate that the most stringent requirement is zero loss. The next one is how many consecutive packets may be lost There are more relaxed cases. This section is: 7.4. Industrial M2M Asks Maybe we should focus on the stringent cases. What about updating the bullet to: "Low packet loss (e.g., zero, limited number of consecutive packets)" ? Regards, Janos On 12/18/2018 8:31 PM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: Thanks Janos, Doesn't 0.1-1% sound like an awful lot of packet loss? Do I understand correctly that you mean: "Low packet loss (0.1-1 % of packets can be lost, but only a bounded number= of consecutive packets can be lost)" I guess I still don't exactly understand the intent, can you please clarify= ? Thanks, and sorry for being dense here. Ethan. From: J=E1nos Farkas Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 8:21 AM To: Grossman, Ethan A. Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseewal) ; Bal=E1zs Varga A ; detnet@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan Subject: Re: Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Ra= dio and Industrial M2M Hi Ethan, Maybe it is not a god phrase, but the intention with the phrase that the lo= ss should be burstless was that consecutive packets should not be lost. Perhaps the maximum consecutive loss tolerance parameter describes it bette= r in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-0= 2.= It is the "maximum number of consecutive packets whose loss can be tole= rated" Maybe updating the bullet in the use cases draft to: "Low packet loss (0.1-1 %, limited number of consecutive packets)" ? Regards, Janos On 12/16/2018 6:03 AM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: Balazs, Janos: * Section 7.4 What does burstless mean (especially in the context of low packet loss)? --_000_D84037DF78457maseewalciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
J=E1nos,

There is the traffic type isochronous with no tolerance to packet loss= .
The IIC contribution recently presented mandates this as well.

Cheers,
Maik


I just tried to resolve the conce= rn around burstless.

Actually, the numbers may not be right.

Checking IEC/IEEE 60802 contributions
https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/= iec-ieee-60802-tsn-profile-for-industrial-automation/

Use Cases: http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/60802-industrial-use-cases-0= 918-v13.pdf
and traffic type characterization: http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/60802-ademaj-traffic-type-ch= aracterization-1118-v01.pdf
indicate that the most stringent requirement is zero loss.
The next one is how many consecutive packets may be lost
There are more relaxed cases.

This section is: 7.4.  Industrial M2M Asks

Maybe we should focus on the stringent cases.

What about updating the bullet to:

"Low packet loss (e.g., zero, limited number of consecutive packets)&q= uot;

?

Regards,
Janos



On 12/18/2018 8:31 PM, Grossman, Ethan A. wr= ote:

Thanks Janos,<= /o:p>

Doesn’t 0.1-1= % sound like an awful lot of packet loss?

Do I understand cor= rectly that you mean:

"Low packet loss (0.1-1 % of packets can be los= t, but only a bounded number of consecutive packets can be lost)"=

 

I guess I still don’t exactly understand the i= ntent, can you please clarify?
Thanks, and sorry for being dense here.

Ethan.

 

From:= J=E1nos Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 8:21 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>
Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseewal) <m= aseewal@cisco.com>; Bal=E1zs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; detne= t@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cell= ular Radio and Industrial M2M

 

Hi Ethan,

Maybe it is not a god phrase, but the intention with the phrase that the lo= ss should be burstless was that consecutive packets should not be lost.
Perhaps the maximum consecutive loss tolerance parameter describes it bette= r in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-02= . It is the "maximum    number of consecutive packets w= hose loss can be tolerated"

Maybe updating the bullet in the use cases draft to:

"Low packet loss (0.1-1 %, limited number of consecutive packets)"= ;

?

Regards,
Janos

On 12/16/2018 6:03 AM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Balazs, Janos:

* Section 7.4

 

What does burstless mean (especiall= y in the context of low packet loss)?

 

 


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Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:37:40 -0500 To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E1nos_Farkas?= , DetNet WG Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10 Thread-Index: AQHUl7MQHC64vzb8fEG2yQUlzcD3VqWGSxwQ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:37:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.238.21.131] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd53.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-12-19_09:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1812190144 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:38:06 -0000 Janos, The terminology is definitely improved - the resulting draft is much clearer - many thanks to you and the authors for doing that. Where do we stand on the concern about protecting external non-DetNet networks from DetNet flows that escape a DetNet network, e.g., due to an erroneous network configuration change? My current views are ... There's no throttling in DetNet, e.g., this text in 4.3.2: There is no provision in DetNet for throttling DetNet flows, i.e., the transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion notification [RFC3168]. The assumption is that a DetNet flow, to be useful, must be delivered in its entirety. and no assurance that all DetNet-using applications will cease and desist in the face of packet drops that indicate congestion. Packet Replication and Elimination makes this worse via its ability to hide network packet drops and congestion indications from endpoints, e.g., of those drops and/or congestion indications occur on only one of=20 the paths used by replicated packets. The first paragraph in section 3.3.2 is a good start, but I think its lower case "should" is too weak: Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of possible failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet network to detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, or at the wrong time, or in too great a volume. Furthermore, filters and policers can take actions to discard the offending packets or flows, or trigger shutting down the offending flow or the offending interface. At a minimum, I think that the requirement to discard DetNet traffic that would otherwise escape a DetNet network has to be stated as a "MUST" requirement for any DetNet network that supports Packet Replication and Elimination due to the ability of that functionality to hide congestion from endpoints, making it impossible for higher layers of the protocol stack to respond. Beyond this, I think a "SHOULD" requirement to discard DetNet traffic that would otherwise escape is needed, and the statement of that requirement ought to be connected to the explanation of how to implement that requirement. The text in Section 3.3.2 has a lot of the content needed - for a worked example of such "SHOULD" text, see Section 5 of RFC 7510, in particular the itemized list at the end of that section and the paragraph that introduces that list: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7510#section-5 Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of J=E1nos Farkas > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:54 AM > To: DetNet WG > Subject: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10 >=20 >=20 > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] >=20 > Hi, >=20 > The DetNet architecture document has been updated to address the > comments. The new revision (v10) is available at > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10. >=20 > There have been a number of discussion items emails on the list. The > updates are along the major discussion items, which also cover the > derivative discussions, address the comments. >=20 > The major items have been summarized in: > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg01968.html. > Follow up discussions implied terminology changes summarized in: > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg02036.html: > replace "transport sub-layer" with "forwarding sub-layer" > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg02038.html: > replace "congestion protection" with "resource" allocation" > Consequently, the document had a good 'scurb". >=20 > In addition, outstanding comments have been addressed along > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg01943.html. >=20 > Please let us know if any comment happened to be remained open. >=20 > Best regards, > Janos >=20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Wed Dec 19 10:11:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A220130E8C for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:11:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5bh11ruyiYKz for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:11:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4236B130E88 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:11:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id e5so23235234qtr.12 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:11:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cwFTmQ7byG69xWkiM7RNbZvlPxEbyIKXEkvX/lxvT9M=; b=tKSY9oaP5o+ExVA/3Chv/o+VukyHS8gWt1l7ttgtldz0hucxA03SgTBDBwPCj0AoFP Bbk1ReNQ6egLFBtr3Yhd2k8VACCJnYHDKXXNuI0a7HnsljfGbSWTsXqidrwWuUEqKojm wFLVffMV++n0rXSTbdlNA+lW9PEb6dEUpc3B8fk4BeC508osiLZeetWL8UOPBNivQLFm +ULt6gYJ5XoHEZCPoxeK1OunQ8nk4hs0iomiVo3j9zLvYCguV9UtK3rJFgKzl4ehdmPC QqacxoOJWv0/oaJPuV2QnoRtkRVPNBDYkkJ6KLh+oTP5xSNcyvdP6w544TlqbZ92QW7w 0S2A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cwFTmQ7byG69xWkiM7RNbZvlPxEbyIKXEkvX/lxvT9M=; b=iK/rD7AndIgIgrWZlMQ4DI5GEPJkbp/PlI+v39OD/YAH95zMhihXMBhvPQQbbPUlR2 9hW/mG8LAflT2l8hgI4AA1m5rFLB8qQWfMMv1CAvxTlEKkwJaw3QeZs5Of4CQONJpUUy efsz3/DuJOzDKeZdR3A3mttxVdWqd6roQg6bvkc8OabQVackSV/YgA2jwCuUJ/ia+o1S xtZYs048Cj1aZ6EErLstVjTY7UeNXWKR8pgDKzIQw9ZGSvO4WZQipYSU4Nvh+jYJasZx cwgQ8lkPld6pxenAn1YY0jmAIldES2Db6rlHxVuMY3Ls62w1sM/vFRMr7pcw2siZ8kQh Q1Bw== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWZkeqGKkfFPgABhG2/YjTyNDErCiKYH+nQimBD9RZW3/Tzghga4 /R4Xb41V6nGswNkV+6wtS8CLCdULQOhutUfIjFs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/XZOkGDPiUMnqgvkfxfXmMhbRmkdRxqmmknNKiS/7MKNhutRAxz2pt9sIqQ6R7Bz3w0TDXzn0OmJVX9GAk2ucI= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:e105:: with SMTP id w5mr22514543qvk.234.1545243113336; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:11:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:11:42 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Black, David" Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?J=C3=A1nos_Farkas?= , detnet WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dcb4f9057d63f2e1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 18:11:58 -0000 --000000000000dcb4f9057d63f2e1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David, I agree with you regarding the SHOULD. I also think it might help the text if we had a better understanding of how DetNet flows can "escape" a DetNet network. For example, for an MPLS-based DetNet flow, random MPLS packets arriving at an ingress MPLS interface to a router that don't have a corresponding LIB entry for the top-most label will be dropped. They'll also be dropped if they arrive at an interface that isn't configured to expect MPLS packets. So I think any concept of "escaping" would be limited to DetNet packets over an IP infrastructure. In that case, the DetNet flows would most probably be a using DetNet-specific DSCP, and if the ingress interface isn't properly provisioned to know how to process packets with that DSCP, they'll at least be reduced to best-effort treatment. We can also recommend that packets with DetNet-specific DSCPs be dropped if they arrive at an ingress interface that isn't otherwise provisioned to expect such packets. Cheers, Andy On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 12:38 PM Black, David wrote: > Janos, > > The terminology is definitely improved - the resulting draft is much > clearer - many thanks to you and the authors for doing that. > > Where do we stand on the concern about protecting external > non-DetNet networks from DetNet flows that escape a DetNet > network, e.g., due to an erroneous network configuration change? > > My current views are ... > > There's no throttling in DetNet, e.g., this text in 4.3.2: > > There is no provision in DetNet for throttling DetNet flows, i.e., > the transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion > notification [RFC3168]. The assumption is that a DetNet flow, to be > useful, must be delivered in its entirety. > > and no assurance that all DetNet-using applications will cease and desist > in the face of packet drops that indicate congestion. > > Packet Replication and Elimination makes this worse via its ability to hi= de > network packet drops and congestion indications from endpoints, e.g., > of those drops and/or congestion indications occur on only one of > the paths used by replicated packets. > > The first paragraph in section 3.3.2 is a good start, but I think its low= er > case "should" is too weak: > > Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of possible > failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet network to > detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, or at > the wrong time, or in too great a volume. Furthermore, filters and > policers can take actions to discard the offending packets or flows, > or trigger shutting down the offending flow or the offending > interface. > > At a minimum, I think that the requirement to discard DetNet traffic > that would otherwise escape a DetNet network has to be stated as > a "MUST" requirement for any DetNet network that supports Packet > Replication and Elimination due to the ability of that functionality > to hide congestion from endpoints, making it impossible for higher > layers of the protocol stack to respond. > > Beyond this, I think a "SHOULD" requirement to discard DetNet traffic > that would otherwise escape is needed, and the statement of that > requirement ought to be connected to the explanation of how to > implement that requirement. The text in Section 3.3.2 has a lot of > the content needed - for a worked example of such "SHOULD" text, > see Section 5 of RFC 7510, in particular the itemized list at the end of > that section and the paragraph that introduces that list: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7510#section-5 > > Thanks, --David > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of J=C3=A1nos F= arkas > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:54 AM > > To: DetNet WG > > Subject: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10 > > > > > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > > > Hi, > > > > The DetNet architecture document has been updated to address the > > comments. The new revision (v10) is available at > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10. > > > > There have been a number of discussion items emails on the list. The > > updates are along the major discussion items, which also cover the > > derivative discussions, address the comments. > > > > The major items have been summarized in: > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg01968.html. > > Follow up discussions implied terminology changes summarized in: > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg02036.html: > > replace "transport sub-layer" with "forwarding sub-layer" > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg02038.html: > > replace "congestion protection" with "resource" allocation" > > Consequently, the document had a good 'scurb". > > > > In addition, outstanding comments have been addressed along > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg01943.html. > > > > Please let us know if any comment happened to be remained open. > > > > Best regards, > > Janos > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --000000000000dcb4f9057d63f2e1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
David,

I agree with yo= u regarding the SHOULD.

I also think it might help= the text if we had a better understanding of how DetNet flows can "es= cape" a DetNet network.

For example, for an M= PLS-based DetNet flow, random MPLS packets arriving at an ingress MPLS inte= rface to a router that don't have a corresponding LIB entry for the top= -most label will be dropped. They'll also be dropped if they arrive at = an interface that isn't configured to expect MPLS packets.=C2=A0
<= div>
So I think any concept of "escaping" would be = limited to DetNet packets over an IP infrastructure. In that case, the DetN= et flows would most probably be a using DetNet-specific DSCP, and if the in= gress interface isn't properly provisioned to know how to process packe= ts with that DSCP, they'll at least be reduced to best-effort treatment= . We can also recommend that packets with DetNet-specific DSCPs be dropped = if they arrive at an ingress interface that isn't otherwise provisioned= to expect such packets.

Cheers,
Andy


On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 12:38 PM Black, David <David.Black@dell.com> wrote:
Janos,

The terminology is definitely improved - the resulting draft is much
clearer - many thanks to you and the authors for doing that.

Where do we stand on the concern about protecting external
non-DetNet networks from DetNet flows that escape a DetNet
network, e.g., due to an erroneous network configuration change?

My current views are ...

There's no throttling in DetNet, e.g., this text in 4.3.2:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0There is no provision in DetNet for throttling DetNet flows, i= .e.,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestio= n
=C2=A0 =C2=A0notification [RFC3168].=C2=A0 The assumption is that a DetNet = flow, to be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0useful, must be delivered in its entirety.

and no assurance that all DetNet-using applications will cease and desist in the face of packet drops that indicate congestion.

Packet Replication and Elimination makes this worse via its ability to hide=
network packet drops and congestion indications from endpoints, e.g.,
of those drops and/or congestion indications occur on only one of
the paths used by replicated packets.

The first paragraph in section 3.3.2 is a good start, but I think its lower=
case "should" is too weak:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of possi= ble
=C2=A0 =C2=A0failures.=C2=A0 Filters and policers should be used in a DetNe= t network to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, = or at
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the wrong time, or in too great a volume.=C2=A0 Furthermore, f= ilters and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0policers can take actions to discard the offending packets or = flows,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0or trigger shutting down the offending flow or the offending =C2=A0 =C2=A0interface.

At a minimum, I think that the requirement to discard DetNet traffic
that would otherwise escape a DetNet network has to be stated as
a "MUST" requirement for any DetNet network that supports Packet<= br> Replication and Elimination due to the ability of that functionality
to hide congestion from endpoints, making it impossible for higher
layers of the protocol stack to respond.

Beyond this, I think a "SHOULD" requirement to discard DetNet tra= ffic
that would otherwise escape is needed, and the statement of that
requirement ought to be connected to the explanation of how to
implement that requirement.=C2=A0 The text in Section 3.3.2 has a lot of the content needed - for a worked example of such "SHOULD" text,<= br> see Section 5 of RFC 7510, in particular the itemized list at the end of that section and the paragraph that introduces that list:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7510#secti= on-5

Thanks, --David

> -----Original Message-----
> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of J=C3=A1nos Farkas
> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:54 AM
> To: DetNet WG
> Subject: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10
>
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
>
> Hi,
>
> The DetNet architecture document has been updated to address the
> comments. The new revision (v10) is available at
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-= ietf-detnet-architecture-10.
>
> There have been a number of discussion items emails on the list. The > updates are along the major discussion items, which also cover the
> derivative discussions, address the comments.
>
> The major items have been summarized in:
> https://www.ietf.org/mail-arc= hive/web/detnet/current/msg01968.html.
> Follow up discussions implied terminology changes summarized in:
> https://www.ietf.org/mail-arc= hive/web/detnet/current/msg02036.html:
> replace "transport sub-layer" with "forwarding sub-laye= r"
> https://www.ietf.org/mail-arc= hive/web/detnet/current/msg02038.html:
> replace "congestion protection" with "resource" al= location"
> Consequently, the document had a good 'scurb".
>
> In addition, outstanding comments have been addressed along
> https://www.ietf.org/mail-arc= hive/web/detnet/current/msg01943.html.
>
> Please let us know if any comment happened to be remained open.
>
> Best regards,
> Janos
>
> _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
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Wed, 19 Dec 2018 15:15:43 -0500 To: "Andrew G. Malis" CC: =?utf-8?B?SsOhbm9zIEZhcmthcw==?= , detnet WG Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10 Thread-Index: AQHUl7MQHC64vzb8fEG2yQUlzcD3VqWGSxwQgABl5QD//8uQoA== Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 20:15:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.238.21.131] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D24327794936303A450FMX307CL04corpem_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd04.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-12-19_10:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 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dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ab_fOkIaAudV; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:06:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x231.google.com (mail-oi1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1E58130E86; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:06:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x231.google.com with SMTP id v6so2803123oif.2; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:06:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=s1YrYL2gNnFQkNJhz2ycPABm9zkiVMakjpIC1mwb2bE=; b=AfAL23h0QfFCCkkO3Mrze+oeiv8PdBD4FlbfKRL9RypmMxY5Jluq/Ilx5KchNs9YpD +pm0QhYPvgR9YydfXQnvXIvsPyQhIq8ADNpZFYC/uAx/rS+upnKqCCr15ywkmacu1y50 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AFSGD/VfjcQBMoucAPJbT9Qrqrf3deyaNlyC+lLjCECsh9a8ZI7AULUpncn9wqa3VECx27tBleRjeakZPQ3UfUL6Bzw= X-Received: by 2002:aca:b6c3:: with SMTP id g186mr288842oif.289.1545253561136; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:06:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:06:00 -0800 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: <70f06a054a6c4fa4881ad54d61a0bc2a@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <70f06a054a6c4fa4881ad54d61a0bc2a@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> X-Mailer: Airmail (528) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:06:00 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Cc: Lou Berger , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement@ietf.org" , IESG , "detnet@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000997c09057d6661b8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alvaro Retana's Yes on draft-ietf-detnet-problem-statement-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 21:06:03 -0000 --000000000000997c09057d6661b8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pascal: Hi! The document is fine with me=E2=80=A6this was just a non-blocking comment t= o say that I would have preferred one document instead of two=E2=80=A6but no chan= ge is needed. Thanks for following up. Alvaro. On December 19, 2018 at 11:39:07 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ( pthubert@cisco.com) wrote: Hello Alvaro : I was digging the datatracker and found the following comment from you: =E2=80=9C Given the close relationship between this document and draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases, I think that it would have been beneficial to produce a single document. As it stands neither one normatively references the other. draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-09 says it better: The Deterministic Networking Problem Statement [I-D.ietf-detnet-problem-statement] introduces Deterministic Networking, and Deterministic Networking Use Cases [I-D.ietf-detnet-use-cases] summarizes the need for it. I=E2=80=99m sorry I cannot remember seeing this comment before, and I could= not dig it in my mail client, so I do not know what happened with it. As it goes, the problem statement precedes the architecture document and cannot really reference it normatively. On the other hand the problem statement is a consequence of the use case draft so it is heavily based on it. Still there is a forward note that references it, so we do have a reference= . Forward note: The DetNet Architecture [I-D.ietf-detnet-architecture] is the document produced by the DetNet WG to describe that model. But in general when we mention a DetNet architecture we present it as an abstract architecture to be defined as opposed to work already done, so we abstained to have a reference to the architecture draft. More than that seems artificial and I=E2=80=99m tempted to leave things as = is. If you think it is important then I=E2=80=99m OK add a sentence or modify the = one quoted above in the next editions. Please let us know if that=E2=80=99s OK? Pascal --000000000000997c09057d6661b8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
Pascal:

Hi!

The document is fine with me=E2=80=A6th= is was just a non-blocking comment to say that I would have preferred one d= ocument instead of two=E2=80=A6but no change is needed.

Thanks fo= r following up.

Alvaro.

On De= cember 19, 2018 at 11:39:07 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) (pthubert@cisco.com) wrote:

Hello Alvaro=C2=A0:

=C2=A0

I was digging the datatracker a= nd found the following comment from you:

=E2=80=9C

Given the close relationship between = this document and draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases, I think that it would have b= een beneficial to produce a single document.=C2=A0 As it stands neither one normatively references t= he other.

=C2=A0

draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-09 say= s it better:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 The Deterministic Networ= king Problem Statement

=C2=A0=C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-detnet-problem= -statement] introduces Deterministic

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Networking, and Determin= istic Networking Use Cases

=C2=A0=C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-detnet-use-cas= es] summarizes the need for it.

<= /span>

I=E2=80=99m sorry I cannot reme= mber seeing this comment before, and I could not dig it in my mail client, = so I do not know what happened with it.

=C2=A0

As it goes, the problem stateme= nt precedes the architecture document and cannot really reference it normat= ively.

On the other hand the problem s= tatement is a consequence of the use case draft so it is heavily based on i= t.

=C2=A0

Still there is a forward note t= hat references it, so we do have a reference.<= /p>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Forward note: = The DetNet Architecture

=C2=A0=C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-detnet-archite= cture] is the document produced by the DetNet

=C2=A0=C2=A0 WG to describe that mode= l.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

But in general when we mention = a DetNet architecture we present it as an abstract architecture to be defin= ed as opposed to work already done, so we abstained to have a reference to = the architecture draft.

=C2=A0

More than that seems artificial= and I=E2=80=99m tempted to leave things as is. If you think it is importan= t then I=E2=80=99m OK add a sentence or modify the one quoted above in the = next editions.

=C2=A0

Please let us know if that=E2= =80=99s OK?

=C2=A0

Pascal

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--000000000000997c09057d6661b8-- From nobody Wed Dec 19 13:23:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C6341294D0; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:23:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.565 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.565 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.065, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0dLzJqbQtJBj; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:23:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks guys, based on the below, I'm writing: Low packet loss (with bounded number of consecutive lost packets) Ethan. From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 9:01 AM To: J=E1nos Farkas ; Grossman, Ethan A. Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Suresh Krishnan ; detnet@ie= tf.org; Bal=E1zs Varga A ; Maik Seewald (masee= wal) Subject: RE: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Ce= llular Radio and Industrial M2M Works for me, this is essential. From: J=E1nos Farkas > Sent: mercredi 19 d=E9cembre 2018 17:58 To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >; Grossman, Ethan A. > Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Suresh Krishnan >; detnet@ietf.org; Bal=E1zs Varga A >; Maik Seewald (maseewal) > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Ce= llular Radio and Industrial M2M Well, I'd not enter MTBF discussion at this stage. It is just example in the brackets. What about skipping numbers to get: "Low packet loss (e.g., limited number of consecutive packets)" ? The special aspect brought in really is the aspect of consecutive packets. Regards, Janos On 12/19/2018 5:50 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: Hello J=E1nos I agree to change the sentence. Zero is not reasonable in the real world, e= ven in wired space : ) What about "Low packet loss (e.g., one in a million, one in a billion, min time betwe= en losses, min packets between losses, strictly bounded number of consecuti= ve losses)" Maybe that's too many examples but when you look up the (old) art of "relia= bility " you end up with terms such as MTBF... All the best Pascal From: detnet On B= ehalf Of J=E1nos Farkas Sent: mercredi 19 d=E9cembre 2018 17:13 To: Grossman, Ethan A. Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Suresh Krishnan ; detnet@ietf.org; Bal=E1zs Varga A ; Maik Seewald (maseewal) Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Ce= llular Radio and Industrial M2M I just tried to resolve the concern around burstless. Actually, the numbers may not be right. Checking IEC/IEEE 60802 contributions https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/iec-ieee-60802-tsn-profile-for-industrial-automat= ion/ Use Cases: http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/60802-industrial-= use-cases-0918-v13.pdf and traffic type characterization: http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/do= cs2018/60802-ademaj-traffic-type-characterization-1118-v01.pdf indicate that the most stringent requirement is zero loss. The next one is how many consecutive packets may be lost There are more relaxed cases. This section is: 7.4. Industrial M2M Asks Maybe we should focus on the stringent cases. What about updating the bullet to: "Low packet loss (e.g., zero, limited number of consecutive packets)" ? Regards, Janos On 12/18/2018 8:31 PM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: Thanks Janos, Doesn't 0.1-1% sound like an awful lot of packet loss? Do I understand correctly that you mean: "Low packet loss (0.1-1 % of packets can be lost, but only a bounded number= of consecutive packets can be lost)" I guess I still don't exactly understand the intent, can you please clarify= ? Thanks, and sorry for being dense here. Ethan. From: J=E1nos Farkas Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 8:21 AM To: Grossman, Ethan A. Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseewal) ; Bal=E1zs Varga A ; detnet@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan Subject: Re: Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cellular Ra= dio and Industrial M2M Hi Ethan, Maybe it is not a god phrase, but the intention with the phrase that the lo= ss should be burstless was that consecutive packets should not be lost. Perhaps the maximum consecutive loss tolerance parameter describes it bette= r in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-0= 2.= It is the "maximum number of consecutive packets whose loss can be tole= rated" Maybe updating the bullet in the use cases draft to: "Low packet loss (0.1-1 %, limited number of consecutive packets)" ? Regards, Janos On 12/16/2018 6:03 AM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: Balazs, Janos: * Section 7.4 What does burstless mean (especially in the context of low packet loss)? --_000_BY1PR0601MB14035B17242FEBD3E0B115ACC4BE0BY1PR0601MB1403_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks guys, based = on the below, I’m writing:

Low packet loss (with bounded numb= er of consecutive lost packets)

Ethan.

 

From:= Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@ci= sco.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 9:01 AM
To: J=E1nos Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com>; Grossman, Etha= n A. <eagros@dolby.com>
Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com&g= t;; detnet@ietf.org; Bal=E1zs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; = Maik Seewald (maseewal) <maseewal@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Commen= ts - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M

 

Works for me, this = is essential.

 

From:= J=E1nos Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com>
Sent: mercredi 19 d=E9cembre 2018 17:58
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>
Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Suresh K= rishnan <suresh.krishnan@gm= ail.com>; detnet@ietf.org; Bal=E1zs Varga A &l= t;balazs.a.varga@ericsson.co= m>; Maik Seewald (maseewal) <maseewal@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Commen= ts - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M

 

Wel= l, I'd not enter MTBF discussion at this stage.

It is just example in the brackets. What about skipping numbers to get:

"Low packet loss (e.g., limited number of consecutive packets)"
?

The special aspect brought in really is the aspect of consecutive packets.<= br>
Regards,
Janos

On 12/19/2018 5:50 PM, Pascal Thub= ert (pthubert) wrote:

Hello  J=E1nos=

 

I agree to change t= he sentence. Zero is not reasonable in the real world, even in wired space = : ) What about


"Low packet loss (e.g.,  one in a million, one in a billion, min = time between losses, min packets between losses, strictly bounded number of= consecutive losses)"

Maybe that’s to= o many examples but when you look up the (old) art of “reliability &#= 8220; you end up with terms such as MTBF…

All the best=

 

Pascal

 

From:= detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org><= /a> On Behalf Of J=E1nos Farkas
Sent: mercredi 19 d=E9cembre 2018 17:13
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagro= s@dolby.com>
Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Suresh K= rishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>; d= etnet@ietf.org; Bal=E1zs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.= com>; Maik Seewald (maseewal) <maseewal@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Commen= ts - Cellular Radio and Industrial M2M<= /span>

 

I just tried to resol= ve the concern around burstless.

Actually, the numbers may not be right.

Checking IEC/IEEE 60802 contributions
https://1.ieee802.org/tsn/iec-ieee-60802-tsn-profile-for-industrial-= automation/

Use Cases: = http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/60802-i= ndustrial-use-cases-0918-v13.pdf
and traffic type characterization: http://www.i= eee802.org/1/files/public/docs2018/60802-ademaj-traffic-type-characterizati= on-1118-v01.pdf
indicate that the most stringent requirement is zero loss.
The next one is how many consecutive packets may be lost
There are more relaxed cases.

This section is: 7.4.  Industrial M2M Asks

Maybe we should focus on the stringent cases.

What about updating the bullet to:

"Low packet loss (e.g., zero, limited number of consecutive packets)&q= uot;

?

Regards,
Janos

On 12/18/2018 8:31 PM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Thanks Janos,

Doesn’t 0.1-1= % sound like an awful lot of packet loss?

Do I understand cor= rectly that you mean:

"Low packet loss (0.1-1 % of packets can be los= t, but only a bounded number of consecutive packets can be lost)"

 

I guess I still don’t exactly understand the i= ntent, can you please clarify?
Thanks, and sorry for being dense here.

Ethan.

 

From:= J=E1nos Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com>= ;
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 8:21 AM
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@= dolby.com>
Cc: jouni@gmail.com; Maik Seewald (maseewal) <maseewal@cisco.com>; Bal=E1zs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.co= m>; detnet@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>= ;
Subject: Re: Resolving the remaining Use Cases Draft Comments - Cell= ular Radio and Industrial M2M

 

Hi Ethan,

Maybe it is not a god phrase, but the intention with the phrase that the lo= ss should be burstless was that consecutive packets should not be lost.
Perhaps the maximum consecutive loss tolerance parameter describes it bette= r in https://tools.ietf.o= rg/html/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-02. It is the "maximum    number of consecutive packets wh= ose loss can be tolerated"

Maybe updating the bullet in the use cases draft to:

"Low packet loss (0.1-1 %, limited number of consecutive packets)"= ;

?

Regards,
Janos

On 12/16/2018 6:03 AM, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:

Balazs, Janos:

 

 

 

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To: "detnet@ietf.org" CC: "ekr@rtfm.com" Thread-Topic: DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of cryptographic algorithms used to verify traffic Thread-Index: AdSX+/sLTp7DPyO1QkG1vyM68OeTlQ== Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 00:42:19 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-dg-ref: PG1ldGE+PGF0IG5tPSJib2R5Lmh0bWwiIHA9ImM6XHVzZXJzXGVhZ3Jvc1xhcHBkYXRhXHJvYW1pbmdcMDlkODQ5YjYtMzJkMy00YTQwLTg1ZWUtNmI4NGJhMjllMzViXG1zZ3NcbXNnLTE5ZjAzNzkxLTAzZjAtMTFlOS04MjA5LWFjYmMzMjdhNTFjNlxhbWUtdGVzdFwxOWYwMzc5Mi0wM2YwLTExZTktODIwOS1hY2JjMzI3YTUxYzZib2R5Lmh0bWwiIHN6PSI2MTU3IiB0PSIxMzE4OTc0MDEzODQzMTk0NDYiIGg9IjM5UE9CMnQ4a3pud3M3RGxQR2JSczhFUFZxbz0iIGlkPSIiIGJsPSIwIiBibz0iMSIvPjwvbWV0YT4= authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=eagros@dolby.com; x-originating-ip: [8.39.141.5] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BY1PR0601MB1079; 6:z+tj8xQgZKy0xy4y1nTUILKpxV+S5uGu0BMakZhOLz92MfjGgqeDoiCvPfjsXtfBVjgO2Z0PQ+4zYyOd1C9Jzl5kqJquzcjSvDzyaGqH96du9j9Ff7oTFW+bWBTM/kd1BrHFSd3038dm+peV3oSEp3NolK5F+nihCkoK9F7mtgxIasoE3RqiG4cF+BXGIaqDOBKD+R1vkOp/IqtqM9iRIwt2hTsj7yFrLMsUkD/bm6c64fx/91jtO1gHva4stdRJoEmdRyfg32my3mENkatA+eBGECPLjDZWEFs3fOQC87jlgwbVLHtmF7MzeEvNYlv5mQ7uSAMCo1cBczSsbd8CzrPGOW5Mhm4xrtUuegnLDfGcXiNUBT3mFZCfDTdriYeNjAqIthyo1PNyygVnE57fBPTxBHZgtwgsOdGs3FECwsLNHn0bFOMlS7e2HDrfiKfwVAPN9vbwZpn0wxWtVw37YQ==; 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boundary="_000_BY1PR0601MB1403A041DF88D362261DA127C4BF0BY1PR0601MB1403_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: dolby.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ee9461d6-01ea-494e-c0e4-08d66613ff5e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Dec 2018 00:42:19.2213 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 05408d25-cd0d-40c8-8962-5462de64a318 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY1PR0601MB1079 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of cryptographic algorithms used to verify traffic X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 00:42:25 -0000 --_000_BY1PR0601MB1403A041DF88D362261DA127C4BF0BY1PR0601MB1403_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, In going over the remaining IESG review comments, there is this question on= Sec 11.5 (Security). I don't think it is worth holding up the Use Cases dr= aft for, but it seems worth a conversation on the list. Text from Section 11.5: > addition to arriving with the data content as intended, the data mus= t > also arrive at the expected time. This may present "new" security > challenges to implementers, and must be addressed accordingly. Ther= e > are other security implications, including (but not limited to) the > change in attack surface presented by packet replication and > elimination. Reviewer's Comment: Do these requirements impose new requirements on the cryptographic algorith= ms used to verify traffic? Ethan's thoughts: Good question, for example do such algorithms have deterministic execution = times? Is there a large spread between best- and worst-case execution times= ? Is this a topic for the Security draft? The Architecture draft? Or is thi= s a more general matter of network (or network silicon) design/implementati= on/performance, and thus doesn't get covered in DetNet drafts? -------------------------------------------------- --_000_BY1PR0601MB1403A041DF88D362261DA127C4BF0BY1PR0601MB1403_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi All,

In going over the remaining IESG review comments,= there is this question on Sec 11.5 (Security). I don’t think it is w= orth holding up the Use Cases draft for, but it seems worth a conversation = on the list.

 

Text from Section 11.5:

>      addition to ar= riving with the data content as intended, the data must

>      also arrive at= the expected time.  This may present "new" security

>      challenges to = implementers, and must be addressed accordingly.  There

>      are other secu= rity implications, including (but not limited to) the

>      change in atta= ck surface presented by packet replication and

>      elimination.

 

Reviewer’s Comment:

Do these requirements impose new requirements on = the cryptographic algorithms used to verify traffic?

 

Ethan’s thoughts:

Good question, for exa= mple do such algorithms have deterministic execution times? Is there a larg= e spread between best- and worst-case execution times? Is this a topic for = the Security draft? The Architecture draft? Or is this a more general matter of network (or network silicon) de= sign/implementation/performance, and thus doesn’t get covered in DetN= et drafts? 

--------------------------------------------------

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Wed, 19 Dec 2018 21:47:11 -0500 To: "Grossman, Ethan A." , "detnet@ietf.org" CC: "ekr@rtfm.com" Thread-Topic: DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of cryptographic algorithms used to verify traffic Thread-Index: AdSX+/sLTp7DPyO1QkG1vyM68OeTlQAEW9Gw Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 02:47:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.238.21.131] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D24327794936303A55D1MX307CL04corpem_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd02.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-12-20_01:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1812200019 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of cryptographic algorithms used to verify traffic X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 02:47:40 -0000 --_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D24327794936303A55D1MX307CL04corpem_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Good question, for example do such algorithms have deterministic executio= n times? Generally, yes, to a first approximation, as the algorithms used to encrypt= and verify traffic are usually symmetric crypto algorithms such as AES and= SHA-2 which perform the same computation regardless of input. Non-determ= inistic execution times are associated with asymmetric crypto algorithms (e= .g., public key algorithms), which are not typically used on a packet-by-pa= cket basis - they're used for session setup, including key exchange, from w= hich keys are derived for the symmetric algorithms. Thanks, --David From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Grossman, Ethan = A. Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 7:42 PM To: detnet@ietf.org Cc: ekr@rtfm.com Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of cryptograph= ic algorithms used to verify traffic [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Hi All, In going over the remaining IESG review comments, there is this question on= Sec 11.5 (Security). I don't think it is worth holding up the Use Cases dr= aft for, but it seems worth a conversation on the list. Text from Section 11.5: > addition to arriving with the data content as intended, the data mus= t > also arrive at the expected time. This may present "new" security > challenges to implementers, and must be addressed accordingly. Ther= e > are other security implications, including (but not limited to) the > change in attack surface presented by packet replication and > elimination. Reviewer's Comment: Do these requirements impose new requirements on the cryptographic algorith= ms used to verify traffic? Ethan's thoughts: Good question, for example do such algorithms have deterministic execution = times? Is there a large spread between best- and worst-case execution times= ? Is this a topic for the Security draft? The Architecture draft? Or is thi= s a more general matter of network (or network silicon) design/implementati= on/performance, and thus doesn't get covered in DetNet drafts? -------------------------------------------------- --_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D24327794936303A55D1MX307CL04corpem_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> Good question, for = example do such algorithms have deterministic execution times?

 

Generally, yes, to a f= irst approximation, as the algorithms used to encrypt and verify traffic ar= e usually symmetric crypto algorithms such as AES and SHA-2 which perform t= he same computation regardless of input.   Non-deterministic execution times are associated with asymmetric crypto al= gorithms (e.g., public key algorithms), which are not typically used on a p= acket-by-packet basis - they’re used for session setup, including key= exchange, from which keys are derived for the symmetric algorithms.

 

Thanks, --David

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org]= On Behalf Of Grossman, Ethan A.
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 7:42 PM
To: detnet@ietf.org
Cc: ekr@rtfm.com
Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of cryp= tographic algorithms used to verify traffic

 

[EXTERNAL EMAIL]

Hi All,

In going over the remaining IESG review comments,= there is this question on Sec 11.5 (Security). I don’t think it is w= orth holding up the Use Cases draft for, but it seems worth a conversation = on the list.

 

Text from Section 11.5:

>      addition to ar= riving with the data content as intended, the data must

>      also arrive at= the expected time.  This may present "new" security

>      challenges to = implementers, and must be addressed accordingly.  There

>      are other secu= rity implications, including (but not limited to) the

>      change in atta= ck surface presented by packet replication and

>      elimination.

 

Reviewer’s Comment:

Do these requirements impose new requirements on = the cryptographic algorithms used to verify traffic?

 

Ethan’s thoughts:

Good question, for exa= mple do such algorithms have deterministic execution times? Is there a larg= e spread between best- and worst-case execution times? Is this a topic for = the Security draft? The Architecture draft? Or is this a more general matter of network (or network silicon) de= sign/implementation/performance, and thus doesn’t get covered in DetN= et drafts? 

--------------------------------------------------

--_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D24327794936303A55D1MX307CL04corpem_-- From nobody Wed Dec 19 19:07:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E9E412D7EA; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 19:07:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.89.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: detnet@ietf.org Message-ID: <154527522003.2072.13481170128629998935@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 19:07:00 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-20.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 03:07:00 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking WG of the IETF. Title : Deterministic Networking Use Cases Author : Ethan Grossman Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-20.txt Pages : 88 Date : 2018-12-19 Abstract: This draft presents use cases from diverse industries which have in common a need for "deterministic flows". "Deterministic" in this context means that such flows provide guaranteed bandwidth, bounded latency, and other properties germane to the transport of time- sensitive data. These use cases differ notably in their network topologies and specific desired behavior, providing as a group broad industry context for DetNet. For each use case, this document will identify the use case, identify representative solutions used today, and describe potential improvements that DetNet can enable. The Use Case Common Themes section then extracts and enumerates the set of common properties implied by these use cases. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-20 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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To: "detnet@ietf.org" , Deborah Brungard CC: Ben Campbell , Suresh Krishnan , "ekr@rtfm.com" , Alissa Cooper , Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Alvaro Retana , "adam@nostrum.com" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-20.txt Thread-Index: AQHUmBEZCl1F97pyS06Z///Cu9rVT6WG9XWg Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 03:38:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <154527522003.2072.13481170128629998935@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <154527522003.2072.13481170128629998935@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-dg-ref: PG1ldGE+PGF0IG5tPSJib2R5LnR4dCIgcD0iYzpcdXNlcnNcZWFncm9zXGFwcGRhdGFccm9hbWluZ1wwOWQ4NDliNi0zMmQzLTRhNDAtODVlZS02Yjg0YmEyOWUzNWJcbXNnc1xtc2ctYmIyMjc3M2QtMDQwOC0xMWU5LTgyMDktYWNiYzMyN2E1MWM2XGFtZS10ZXN0XGJiMjI3NzNlLTA0MDgtMTFlOS04MjA5LWFjYmMzMjdhNTFjNmJvZHkudHh0IiBzej0iMjQ4MSIgdD0iMTMxODk3NTA3MTc1OTYyNDU0IiBoPSJJVGY1Slp4ZGpiKzEzZWQ2M0x5V1hROTVpZDg9IiBpZD0iIiBibD0iMCIgYm89IjEiLz48L21ldGE+ authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=eagros@dolby.com; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BY1PR0601MB1141; H:BY1PR0601MB1403.namprd06.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: dolby.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: rL7FKAN+rBK0WdWiZVoj12ZyHH1TjDsnhl//lFfsUpqYHVT+9sKqyYuoq2D2VplmbsrvGtzu0LQWKBkZDMdzDyjmPFhqWIJoZrv4C9ptW9IerjSqPeThwbv/P4b14yjdJtyiBVDwJwGi8ooUnfuBdA3OB7n4x+vqY3EygxvCK1IDuJlOIHvN/B/I1gTBlMiz4RzUPH7frN+sI1HNoeTKW2jD+g1MYipXz/S3ESgUChEEveRCxlakMFzkJ7Ig2znRMlOATsrg9DZ4yFIy9xACcfBebwL88pF81uPUNsZr7lrZuPfYJy7F4qlsBfaceyy9 spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: dolby.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ddc1f41d-e79f-4a13-98e8-08d6662ca170 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Dec 2018 03:38:39.0947 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 05408d25-cd0d-40c8-8962-5462de64a318 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY1PR0601MB1141 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-20.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 03:38:45 -0000 Hi All, copying IESG reviewers who made comments,=20 This version addresses all of the remaining actionable IESG review comments= .=20 Ethan (as DetNet Use Cases draft editor). -----Original Message----- From: detnet On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.or= g Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 7:07 PM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: detnet@ietf.org Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-20.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking WG of the IETF. Title : Deterministic Networking Use Cases Author : Ethan Grossman Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-20.txt Pages : 88 Date : 2018-12-19 Abstract: This draft presents use cases from diverse industries which have in common a need for "deterministic flows". "Deterministic" in this context means that such flows provide guaranteed bandwidth, bounded latency, and other properties germane to the transport of time- sensitive data. These use cases differ notably in their network topologies and specific desired behavior, providing as a group broad industry context for DetNet. For each use case, this document will identify the use case, identify representative solutions used today, and describe potential improvements that DetNet can enable. The Use Case Common Themes section then extracts and enumerates the set of common properties implied by these use cases. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-20 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-detnet-use-cases-20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Wed Dec 19 23:35:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 142D213109F for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 23:34:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ndNzu7V09eLP for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 23:34:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40B091310A1 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2018 23:34:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=13006; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1545291295; x=1546500895; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=7UWcdszSYV5wRj1e075/XUSTODkwNEheD8Wl2+O9OTY=; b=hTthl9wHk7T0pPBQh+Qi1POfMl1qgkAlCNWzkwgzN/Dah3x5B+JCnkiQ 8CMVsKZ4JCYedtpsB1/ISkIGHWUahQWQwUSRbpOw/4sMoy50qKsnjvCS4 jcgxob9Rlf+AQAp9d5n8RVXysc6W5CB5XjwQ+TLoXFlg1oKY8KdTzHuKc Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ADAADpRBtc/4sNJK1jGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAQGBUQQBAQEBAQsBgQ12ZoECJwqMDIt8gg2SAoVbFIFnCwE?= =?us-ascii?q?BhGwCgmsiNAkNAQMBAQIBAQJtKIU8AQEBAQIBLUwFCwIBCBEBAwEBKAcyFAM?= =?us-ascii?q?GCAEBBAENBQiDG4EdXAiobYotiXeBBoEkHheBQD+BEYJkLoROAQsHAVWFKQK?= =?us-ascii?q?JS4V5X5BAWgkCkVsgkVyDDIZAkBgCERSBJx84ZXFwFTuCbIJQjgtBMYwaDxe?= =?us-ascii?q?BCIEfAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.56,376,1539648000"; d="scan'208,217";a="215317519" Received: from alln-core-6.cisco.com ([173.36.13.139]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 20 Dec 2018 07:34:53 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (xch-rcd-005.cisco.com [173.37.102.15]) by alln-core-6.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id wBK7YrCS027819 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 20 Dec 2018 07:34:53 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (173.37.102.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 01:34:53 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 01:34:52 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "Black, David" , "Grossman, Ethan A." , "detnet@ietf.org" CC: "ekr@rtfm.com" Thread-Topic: DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of cryptographic algorithms used to verify traffic Thread-Index: AdSX+/sLTp7DPyO1QkG1vyM68OeTlQAEW9GwAAoIQfA= Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 07:34:28 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 07:34:25 +0000 Message-ID: <85ff3ddbde5f498ab1c680e1a7d97641@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.252.67] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_85ff3ddbde5f498ab1c680e1a7d97641XCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.15, xch-rcd-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-6.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of cryptographic algorithms used to verify traffic X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 07:34:58 -0000 --_000_85ff3ddbde5f498ab1c680e1a7d97641XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello David : Asymmetric is a lot more expensive, I'm hearing, but could be very useful t= o ensure that the packets in a DetNet flow are from the proper source. Say that the DetNet flow is associated with a keypair, and that the private= key is available to the source of the flow whereas the public key is distr= ibuted with the flow information. We should not preclude that should we? As long as the crypto time is bounde= d we should be OK. All the best pascal From: detnet On Behalf Of Black, David Sent: jeudi 20 d=E9cembre 2018 03:47 To: Grossman, Ethan A. ; detnet@ietf.org Cc: ekr@rtfm.com Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of cryptog= raphic algorithms used to verify traffic > Good question, for example do such algorithms have deterministic executio= n times? Generally, yes, to a first approximation, as the algorithms used to encrypt= and verify traffic are usually symmetric crypto algorithms such as AES and= SHA-2 which perform the same computation regardless of input. Non-determ= inistic execution times are associated with asymmetric crypto algorithms (e= .g., public key algorithms), which are not typically used on a packet-by-pa= cket basis - they're used for session setup, including key exchange, from w= hich keys are derived for the symmetric algorithms. Thanks, --David From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Grossman, Ethan = A. Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 7:42 PM To: detnet@ietf.org Cc: ekr@rtfm.com Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of cryptograph= ic algorithms used to verify traffic [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Hi All, In going over the remaining IESG review comments, there is this question on= Sec 11.5 (Security). I don't think it is worth holding up the Use Cases dr= aft for, but it seems worth a conversation on the list. Text from Section 11.5: > addition to arriving with the data content as intended, the data mus= t > also arrive at the expected time. This may present "new" security > challenges to implementers, and must be addressed accordingly. Ther= e > are other security implications, including (but not limited to) the > change in attack surface presented by packet replication and > elimination. Reviewer's Comment: Do these requirements impose new requirements on the cryptographic algorith= ms used to verify traffic? Ethan's thoughts: Good question, for example do such algorithms have deterministic execution = times? Is there a large spread between best- and worst-case execution times= ? Is this a topic for the Security draft? The Architecture draft? Or is thi= s a more general matter of network (or network silicon) design/implementati= on/performance, and thus doesn't get covered in DetNet drafts? -------------------------------------------------- --_000_85ff3ddbde5f498ab1c680e1a7d97641XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Dav= id :

&nbs= p;

Asymmetric is a lot more expensive, I’m hearing, but could be v= ery useful to ensure that the packets in a DetNet flow are from the proper = source.

Say that the DetNet flow is associated with a keypair, and that the p= rivate key is available to the source of the flow whereas the public key is= distributed with the flow information.

We should not preclude that should we? As long as the crypto time is = bounded we should be OK.

 

All the best

 

pascal

 

From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Black, David
Sent: jeudi 20 d=E9cembre 2018 03:47
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com>; detnet@ietf.org
Cc: ekr@rtfm.com
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of = cryptographic algorithms used to verify traffic

 

> Good question, for example= do such algorithms have deterministic execution times?

 

General= ly, yes, to a first approximation, as the algorithms used to encrypt and ve= rify traffic are usually symmetric crypto algorithms such as AES and SHA-2 = which perform the same computation regardless of input.   Non-deterministic execution times are associated wit= h asymmetric crypto algorithms (e.g., public key algorithms), which are not= typically used on a packet-by-packet basis - they’re used for sessio= n setup, including key exchange, from which keys are derived for the symmetric algorithms.

&n= bsp;

Thanks,= --David

&n= bsp;

From: detnet [mailto:detne= t-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Grossman, Ethan A.
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 7:42 PM
To: detnet@ietf.org
Cc: ekr@rtfm.com
Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of cryp= tographic algorithms used to verify traffic

 

[EXTERNAL EMAIL]

Hi All,

In going over the remaining = IESG review comments, there is this question on Sec 11.5 (Security). I don&= #8217;t think it is worth holding up the Use Cases draft for, but it seems = worth a conversation on the list.

 

Text from Section 11.5:

>    =   addition to arriving with the data content as intended, the data mus= t

>    =   also arrive at the expected time.  This may present "new&q= uot; security

>    =   challenges to implementers, and must be addressed accordingly. = There

>    =   are other security implications, including (but not limited to) the<= o:p>

>    =   change in attack surface presented by packet replication and

>    =   elimination.

 

Reviewer’s Comment:

Do these requirements impose= new requirements on the cryptographic algorithms used to verify traffic?

 

Ethan’s thoughts:

Good question, for example do such algorithms have deterministic execution= times? Is there a large spread between best- and worst-case execution time= s? Is this a topic for the Security draft? The Architecture draft? Or is this a more general matter of network (or ne= twork silicon) design/implementation/performance, and thus doesn’t ge= t covered in DetNet drafts? 

-------------------------------= -------------------

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Malis" CC: detnet WG , =?utf-8?B?SsOhbm9zIEZhcmthcw==?= Thread-Topic: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10 Thread-Index: AQHUl7MS2a5F1EenOkimumZNuZjfBqWGuEMAgAAJggCAACKmgIAAXGVg Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 07:55:35 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 07:54:52 +0000 Message-ID: <65a38b73b40b4259ab4b22c4d5faa4ba@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.252.67] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_65a38b73b40b4259ab4b22c4d5faa4baXCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.13, xch-rcd-003.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-8.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , 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Thu, 20 Dec 2018 04:51:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ST27cpraRKWMr4Lt1qBqgIQqxFjJvsSF86RM9HiJmUk=; b=c9qoChDkctsW/zcYUyvMVD1lbRUr5Kk7/xqaYhEo+zRlOIuor5dOJchUBPsC96xC2d EwX1MntiKhMlFNuzV6cH451BDgc6LFpnjGy2bh/WARPDUtMJdNEalLxDnsNt0wxVZJ5w qWrsY653F7amtbDDi4Hc8qK4nS5rdAWoaVcUTSWazkGqV6g+rNuA2t8JtPEWpdmoucS/ 9aEo97IXboEFWtC6nLbv+8QKuvYLK7E7v+UMyjwE2Z7iBuuP79kIFWvdLcpSX78o/yzV 6DTW8OOI2XLU3nfHKRUEGZSL4OJwjA3LeMXAA/eI07TOZ71fyHoY6CDpYCeiUgxl8djq Ae9A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ST27cpraRKWMr4Lt1qBqgIQqxFjJvsSF86RM9HiJmUk=; b=arHZoBuryPcUt7r5fWMNU+DPmgwh33kZSOMuwPV2USL3HYUB/FvZ2eGXtcaQ3Clwh8 ElH/qoJKTKPvgqy+/SL9sHSkPneuMwBsHzuVBiRJUv3GEIuDNbPClSMStwRFYqEgGd3Q 3LaUUzDguMQDZciqs4eOWxbaqYLI+eqgza8OJYxMgqlr8ZSsENAM2WWB0yTwLFmJxUb7 NQnkSIgmZMEvWeN+M07IM4D7lTHotF7/bUB/x2Z6vYLcw2A5G2JGbbBPFjAkByG6hO54 P97Lhy2kAL02v0XuwTcGUjE68VYHE0rE5RtC0CfVtqZiZvSq52GGKyT27+CG6RtC0oHt yfcw== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWbhBx3FNpDyz6/Vp7vT232/oshpkxpJmDNuv0Rb2/HBcV2v6eNr CZ0h073aYaNYyUJcaiwyfmh3s5FgEtjkFL2rBhuHtu4CO0M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/X7SF7VHhq5t6QU9CNyK9uPwbXGeYSWeyW3pgv6GKM9CdU60vVSAodkBm1ow3YOiq2FuZe4/LJtjScUjuKhwWQ= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9a84:: with SMTP id p4-v6mr14907550lji.73.1545310313224; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 04:51:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 04:51:15 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Black, David" Cc: "Grossman, Ethan A." , "detnet@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000049b394057d7398f2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of cryptographic algorithms used to verify traffic X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 12:51:58 -0000 --00000000000049b394057d7398f2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmm... You actually do need to go to some effort to make symmetric algorithms constant-time. See for instance: http://www.isg.rhul.ac.uk/tls/lucky13.html On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 6:47 PM Black, David wrote: > > Good question, for example do such algorithms have deterministic > execution times? > > > > Generally, yes, to a first approximation, as the algorithms used to > encrypt and verify traffic are usually symmetric crypto algorithms such a= s > AES and SHA-2 which perform the same computation regardless of input. > Non-deterministic execution times are associated with asymmetric crypto > algorithms (e.g., public key algorithms), which are not typically used on= a > packet-by-packet basis - they=E2=80=99re used for session setup, includin= g key > exchange, from which keys are derived for the symmetric algorithms. > > > > Thanks, --David > > > > *From:* detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Grossman, > Ethan A. > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 19, 2018 7:42 PM > *To:* detnet@ietf.org > *Cc:* ekr@rtfm.com > *Subject:* [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of > cryptographic algorithms used to verify traffic > > > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > Hi All, > > In going over the remaining IESG review comments, there is this question > on Sec 11.5 (Security). I don=E2=80=99t think it is worth holding up the = Use Cases > draft for, but it seems worth a conversation on the list. > > > > Text from Section 11.5: > > > addition to arriving with the data content as intended, the data > must > > > also arrive at the expected time. This may present "new" security > > > challenges to implementers, and must be addressed accordingly. > There > > > are other security implications, including (but not limited to) th= e > > > change in attack surface presented by packet replication and > > > elimination. > > > > Reviewer=E2=80=99s Comment: > > Do these requirements impose new requirements on the cryptographic > algorithms used to verify traffic? > > > > Ethan=E2=80=99s thoughts: > > Good question, for example do such algorithms have deterministic executio= n > times? Is there a large spread between best- and worst-case execution > times? Is this a topic for the Security draft? The Architecture draft? Or > is this a more general matter of network (or network silicon) > design/implementation/performance, and thus doesn=E2=80=99t get covered i= n DetNet > drafts? > > -------------------------------------------------- > --00000000000049b394057d7398f2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hmm... You actually do need to go to= some effort to make symmetric algorithms constant-time. See for instance: = http://www.isg.rhul.= ac.uk/tls/lucky13.html


On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 6:47 PM Black, David <David.Black@dell.co= m> wrote:

> Good question, for example do such algorithms have= deterministic execution times?

=C2=A0

Generally, yes,= to a first approximation, as the algorithms used to encrypt and verify tra= ffic are usually symmetric crypto algorithms such as AES and SHA-2 which pe= rform the same computation regardless of input.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Non-deterministic execution times are associated with asymmetric crypto al= gorithms (e.g., public key algorithms), which are not typically used on a p= acket-by-packet basis - they=E2=80=99re used for session setup, including k= ey exchange, from which keys are derived for the symmetric algorithms.

=C2=A0

Thanks, --David=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

[EXTERNAL EMAIL]

Hi All,

In going over the remaining IESG review comments, there is this questi= on on Sec 11.5 (Security). I don=E2=80=99t think it is worth holding up the= Use Cases draft for, but it seems worth a conversation on the list.

=C2=A0

Text from Section 11.5:

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 addition to arriving with the data = content as intended, the data must

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 also arrive at the expected time.= =C2=A0 This may present "new" security

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 challenges to implementers, and mus= t be addressed accordingly.=C2=A0 There

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 are other security implications, in= cluding (but not limited to) the

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 change in attack surface presented = by packet replication and

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 elimination.

=C2=A0

Reviewer=E2=80=99s Comment:

Do these requirements impose new requirements on the cryptographic alg= orithms used to verify traffic?

=C2=A0

Ethan=E2=80=99s thoughts:

Good question, for example do such algorit= hms have deterministic execution times? Is there a large spread between bes= t- and worst-case execution times? Is this a topic for the Security draft? = The Architecture draft? Or is this a more general matter of network (or network silicon) de= sign/implementation/performance, and thus doesn=E2=80=99t get covered in De= tNet drafts?=C2=A0

--------------------------------------------------

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17:53:03 -0500 Received: from MX307CL04.corp.emc.com ([fe80::849f:5da2:11b:4385]) by MXHUB301.corp.emc.com ([10.146.3.27]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 17:53:02 -0500 To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Grossman, Ethan A." , "detnet@ietf.org" CC: "ekr@rtfm.com" Thread-Topic: DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of cryptographic algorithms used to verify traffic Thread-Index: AdSX+/sLTp7DPyO1QkG1vyM68OeTlQAEW9GwAAoIQfAAUfnZsA== Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 22:53:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: <85ff3ddbde5f498ab1c680e1a7d97641@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <85ff3ddbde5f498ab1c680e1a7d97641@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.238.21.131] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D24327794936303A96D2MX307CL04corpem_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd04.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-12-21_10:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1812210169 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of cryptographic algorithms used to verify traffic X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 22:53:25 -0000 --_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D24327794936303A96D2MX307CL04corpem_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Pascal, I would not preclude that, but I would discourage it, as, if I understand w= hat is proposed, it involves checking a digital signature on each packet at= arbitrary intermediate points along the flow, which is indeed rather expen= sive. If only endpoint checks or checks at a small number of intermediate points = are required, a more effective approach is to use asymmetric crypto to auth= enticate distribution or exchange of a secret key for symmetric crypto - a = successful check based on that key provides traffic origin verification as = long as the key is kept secret by the participants. Both TLS and IKE (for = IPsec) are examples of this for endpoint checks. In both cases, origin verification also requires replay detection mechanism= as part of the security protocol to prevent an attacker from recording and= resending traffic, e.g., as a denial of service attack on flow forwarding = resources. Thanks, --David From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (= pthubert) Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 2:34 AM To: Black, David; Grossman, Ethan A.; detnet@ietf.org Cc: ekr@rtfm.com Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of cryptog= raphic algorithms used to verify traffic [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Hello David : Asymmetric is a lot more expensive, I'm hearing, but could be very useful t= o ensure that the packets in a DetNet flow are from the proper source. Say that the DetNet flow is associated with a keypair, and that the private= key is available to the source of the flow whereas the public key is distr= ibuted with the flow information. We should not preclude that should we? As long as the crypto time is bounde= d we should be OK. All the best pascal From: detnet > On B= ehalf Of Black, David Sent: jeudi 20 d=E9cembre 2018 03:47 To: Grossman, Ethan A. >; detnet@= ietf.org Cc: ekr@rtfm.com Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of cryptog= raphic algorithms used to verify traffic > Good question, for example do such algorithms have deterministic executio= n times? Generally, yes, to a first approximation, as the algorithms used to encrypt= and verify traffic are usually symmetric crypto algorithms such as AES and= SHA-2 which perform the same computation regardless of input. Non-determ= inistic execution times are associated with asymmetric crypto algorithms (e= .g., public key algorithms), which are not typically used on a packet-by-pa= cket basis - they're used for session setup, including key exchange, from w= hich keys are derived for the symmetric algorithms. Thanks, --David From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Grossman, Ethan = A. Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 7:42 PM To: detnet@ietf.org Cc: ekr@rtfm.com Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of cryptograph= ic algorithms used to verify traffic [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Hi All, In going over the remaining IESG review comments, there is this question on= Sec 11.5 (Security). I don't think it is worth holding up the Use Cases dr= aft for, but it seems worth a conversation on the list. Text from Section 11.5: > addition to arriving with the data content as intended, the data mus= t > also arrive at the expected time. This may present "new" security > challenges to implementers, and must be addressed accordingly. Ther= e > are other security implications, including (but not limited to) the > change in attack surface presented by packet replication and > elimination. Reviewer's Comment: Do these requirements impose new requirements on the cryptographic algorith= ms used to verify traffic? Ethan's thoughts: Good question, for example do such algorithms have deterministic execution = times? Is there a large spread between best- and worst-case execution times= ? Is this a topic for the Security draft? The Architecture draft? Or is thi= s a more general matter of network (or network silicon) design/implementati= on/performance, and thus doesn't get covered in DetNet drafts? -------------------------------------------------- --_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D24327794936303A96D2MX307CL04corpem_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Pascal,

 

I would not preclude t= hat, but I would discourage it, as, if I understand what is proposed, it in= volves checking a digital signature on each packet at arbitrary intermediat= e points along the flow, which is indeed rather expensive.

 

If only endpoint check= s or checks at a small number of intermediate points are required, a more e= ffective approach is to use asymmetric crypto to authenticate distribution = or exchange of a secret key for symmetric crypto – a successful check based on that key provides traffic origi= n verification as long as the key is kept secret by the participants. = Both TLS and IKE (for IPsec) are examples of this for endpoint checks.

 

In both cases, origin = verification also requires replay detection mechanism as part of the securi= ty protocol to prevent an attacker from recording and resending traffic, e.= g., as a denial of service attack on flow forwarding resources.

 

Thanks, --David

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org]= On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 2:34 AM
To: Black, David; Grossman, Ethan A.; detnet@ietf.org
Cc: ekr@rtfm.com
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of = cryptographic algorithms used to verify traffic

 

[EXTERNAL EMAIL]

Hello David :

 

Asymmetric is a lot more expensive, I’m hearin= g, but could be very useful to ensure that the packets in a DetNet flow are= from the proper source.

Say that the DetNet flow is associated with a keypai= r, and that the private key is available to the source of the flow whereas = the public key is distributed with the flow information.

We should not preclude that should we? As long as th= e crypto time is bounded we should be OK.

 

All the best

 

pascal

 

From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Black, David
Sent: jeudi 20 d=E9cembre 2018 03:47
To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagro= s@dolby.com>; detnet@ietf.org
Cc: ekr@rtfm.com
Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of = cryptographic algorithms used to verify traffic

 

> Good question, for example do such algorithms h= ave deterministic execution times?

 

Generally, yes, to a f= irst approximation, as the algorithms used to encrypt and verify traffic ar= e usually symmetric crypto algorithms such as AES and SHA-2 which perform t= he same computation regardless of input.   Non-deterministic execution times are associated with asymmetric crypto al= gorithms (e.g., public key algorithms), which are not typically used on a p= acket-by-packet basis - they’re used for session setup, including key= exchange, from which keys are derived for the symmetric algorithms.

 

Thanks, --David

 

From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Grossman, Ethan A.
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 7:42 PM
To: detnet@ietf.org
Cc: ekr@rtfm.com
Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of cryp= tographic algorithms used to verify traffic

 

[EXTERNAL EMAIL]

Hi All,

In going over the remaining IESG review comments,= there is this question on Sec 11.5 (Security). I don’t think it is w= orth holding up the Use Cases draft for, but it seems worth a conversation = on the list.

 

Text from Section 11.5:

>      addition to ar= riving with the data content as intended, the data must

>      also arrive at= the expected time.  This may present "new" security

>      challenges to = implementers, and must be addressed accordingly.  There

>      are other secu= rity implications, including (but not limited to) the

>      change in atta= ck surface presented by packet replication and

>      elimination.

 

Reviewer’s Comment:

Do these requirements impose new requirements on = the cryptographic algorithms used to verify traffic?

 

Ethan’s thoughts:

Good question, for exa= mple do such algorithms have deterministic execution times? Is there a larg= e spread between best- and worst-case execution times? Is this a topic for = the Security draft? The Architecture draft? Or is this a more general matter of network (or network silicon) de= sign/implementation/performance, and thus doesn’t get covered in DetN= et drafts? 

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-0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "Black, David" CC: "Grossman, Ethan A." , "detnet@ietf.org" , "ekr@rtfm.com" Thread-Topic: DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of cryptographic algorithms used to verify traffic Thread-Index: AdSX+/sLTp7DPyO1QkG1vyM68OeTlQAEW9GwAAoIQfAAUfnZsAAUxF1s Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2018 08:29:55 +0000 Message-ID: <8B0117C3-ABCC-4B50-8BAF-5BE1D6D4329F@cisco.com> References: <85ff3ddbde5f498ab1c680e1a7d97641@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8B0117C3ABCC4B508BAF5BE1D6D4329Fciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.14, xch-rcd-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-10.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] DetNet Use Cases comment - time properties of cryptographic algorithms used to verify traffic X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org 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(envelope-from ) id 1gbWfz-003hgH-1D; Mon, 24 Dec 2018 13:18:11 -0700 To: "Black, David" , =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= , DetNet WG References: From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <31151608-0a6b-1aee-3f86-d3727b77d5d5@labn.net> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 15:18:11 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 72.66.11.201 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gbWfz-003hgH-1D X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-72-66-11-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [72.66.11.201]:53108 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 3 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 20:18:23 -0000 Hi David, On 12/19/2018 12:37 PM, Black, David wrote: > Janos, > > The terminology is definitely improved - the resulting draft is much > clearer - many thanks to you and the authors for doing that. Happy to hear that. > Where do we stand on the concern about protecting external > non-DetNet networks from DetNet flows that escape a DetNet > network, e.g., due to an erroneous network configuration change? I'm not sure we have general solutions in the internet architecture for miss-configured/buggy systems other than dropping the packets on the floor (e.g., due to no route, no label, or ttl expiry).  What type of protection are you looking for here, and can you provide a reference to the type of router behavior you would like to see?  I have a suggestion that might address your concern below elated to non-BCP41 conformant traffic, but am unsure if this is what you are concerned about. > > My current views are ... > > There's no throttling in DetNet, e.g., this text in 4.3.2: > > There is no provision in DetNet for throttling DetNet flows, i.e., > the transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion > notification [RFC3168]. The assumption is that a DetNet flow, to be > useful, must be delivered in its entirety. Well looking at it this way, there is no throttling in any IP network as the routers generate the CN and only drop when their queues are full or implementing some sort of RED. In DetNet there is an expectation that intermediate nodes do more than this.  Specifically, see section 4.5: "Queuing, Shaping, Scheduling, and Preemption" and policing, which is mentioned as requirement in section 3.3.1. > and no assurance that all DetNet-using applications will cease and desist > in the face of packet drops that indicate congestion. I think this is correct. > Packet Replication and Elimination makes this worse via its ability to hide > network packet drops and congestion indications from endpoints, e.g., > of those drops and/or congestion indications occur on only one of > the paths used by replicated packets. > > The first paragraph in section 3.3.2 is a good start, but I think its lower > case "should" is too weak: > > Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of possible > failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet network to > detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, or at > the wrong time, or in too great a volume. Furthermore, filters and > policers can take actions to discard the offending packets or flows, > or trigger shutting down the offending flow or the offending > interface. > > At a minimum, I think that the requirement to discard DetNet traffic > that would otherwise escape a DetNet network has to be stated as > a "MUST" requirement for any DetNet network that supports Packet > Replication and Elimination due to the ability of that functionality > to hide congestion from endpoints, making it impossible for higher > layers of the protocol stack to respond. To me clear, your are suggesting that text be added to say that sending detnet traffic out a non-detnet interfaces must be treated as a fault.  Is this correct?  If so, I think this is too broad considering that there are networks that can provided the required detnet forwarding sub-layer service that are not detnet service aware as is mentioned at the end of section 4.3.2. (I'll refer to such as "DetNet supporting networks" in the next paragraph.) This said, I think it would be reasonable to make it a requirement that DetNet nodes must not forward traffic that doesn't conform with BCP41 over a network that is neither a Detnet network or a DetNet supporting network.  Although this would require a change to the DetNet service model, i.e.,  to know which traffic was conformant/non-conformant. > Beyond this, I think a "SHOULD" requirement to discard DetNet traffic > that would otherwise escape is needed, and the statement of that > requirement ought to be connected to the explanation of how to > implement that requirement. I think adding a statement on output filters (and policiers) to this section is reasonable. > The text in Section 3.3.2 has a lot of > the content needed - for a worked example of such "SHOULD" text, > see Section 5 of RFC 7510, in particular the itemized list at the end of > that section and the paragraph that introduces that list: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7510#section-5 If I'm not mistaken, such mechanisms are already included in the document and you really are just asking them to be (re)listed to ensure that this import point isn't missed.  Is this correct? Besides what is mentioned above, is there anything else missing? Thanks! Lou > > Thanks, --David > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of János Farkas >> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:54 AM >> To: DetNet WG >> Subject: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10 >> >> >> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] >> >> Hi, >> >> The DetNet architecture document has been updated to address the >> comments. The new revision (v10) is available at >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10. >> >> There have been a number of discussion items emails on the list. The >> updates are along the major discussion items, which also cover the >> derivative discussions, address the comments. >> >> The major items have been summarized in: >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg01968.html. >> Follow up discussions implied terminology changes summarized in: >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg02036.html: >> replace "transport sub-layer" with "forwarding sub-layer" >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg02038.html: >> replace "congestion protection" with "resource" allocation" >> Consequently, the document had a good 'scurb". >> >> In addition, outstanding comments have been addressed along >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg01943.html. >> >> Please let us know if any comment happened to be remained open. >> >> Best regards, >> Janos >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > From nobody Mon Dec 24 12:24:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3065B13112A for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2018 12:24:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id szDzbtfcjxZh for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2018 12:24:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy10-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy10-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.20.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65712131124 for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2018 12:24:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw10.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.10]) by gproxy10.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75652140410 for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2018 13:24:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id bWm0gOvMduj2obWm0gfBjp; Mon, 24 Dec 2018 13:24:24 -0700 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=pteEtJAYvEU4pxb3n7DjW2GjBIAYzzOx96xLNa/DJ2Q=; b=m767M4e2fFzRQ8gH2PprbEZn4F L5r2qGLPdguJRx7AP2caqx9oluoin43eVTbUti44JMwqILPjAfatiE8/LpHDTz13ASU7CCZa5ZiMe VQGzwB5ZuPJGCM6IfskL4XUQU; Received: from pool-72-66-11-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([72.66.11.201]:53590 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gbWm0-003j9x-7q; Mon, 24 Dec 2018 13:24:24 -0700 To: "Andrew G. Malis" , "Black, David" Cc: detnet WG , =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= References: From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 15:24:24 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 72.66.11.201 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gbWm0-003j9x-7q X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-72-66-11-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [72.66.11.201]:53590 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 6 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] IP Solution and use of DetNet-specific DSCPs (was Re: draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 20:24:29 -0000 Andy, Just following up on one point on DetNet-specific DSCPs: On 12/19/2018 1:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > In that case, the DetNet flows would most probably be a using > DetNet-specific DSCP, and if the ingress interface isn't properly > provisioned to know how to process packets with that DSCP, they'll at > least be reduced to best-effort treatment.. We can also recommend that > packets with DetNet-specific DSCPs be dropped if they arrive at an > ingress interface that isn't otherwise provisioned to expect such packets. While I personally think use of DSCPs will be useful in supporting aggregated DetNet flows, the IP solution draft has no requirement that operators or vendors restrict DetNet flows to a specific DSCP value.  -- I personally think this is an important design point. Happy Holidays! Lou From nobody Mon Dec 24 12:26:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7168413112C for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2018 12:26:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id emG44nkxIAh2 for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2018 12:26:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82b.google.com (mail-qt1-x82b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E01A313112A for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2018 12:26:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82b.google.com with SMTP id e5so13748811qtr.12 for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2018 12:26:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZodGYpgMDHMuxQK5H3tPDgdjHEiruMPRXZePlWiwnOk=; b=ccM0nJ14Ngqd5u2X/dQOpaEoOieW0zOSgNX6mxVahHUM7pO4uTpGVwEJCMBayAnuG/ g2hnBB8CV8fXmNvmjsbafjQFVONXKLbdhkFzivJ/JW2AaHBkhe0ow5DRkRrN4Mjvqe04 GuXLa2tGmfnLDB0N8ILcJ7nIlDKxLe1UL3c1oBvM5SDE+3gqMX26nGPrj26IncIGBQh2 qhN+mVm58MqJHsV7hde9Qe/htJHLylQl3YA4QrrZImYZoPU+ZB6YcqwhtGr6voxxbo1i 6wm6tgJiyQBXv1vgIgNXFPuFkKoaG1k1YpQkjPgIOtNPvhmyVJ5Ovnp4TPwgxK8MBGR8 QtOw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZodGYpgMDHMuxQK5H3tPDgdjHEiruMPRXZePlWiwnOk=; b=SfW/RYlD+mG3SPRD/Wr4kc+aL5vzoHRWsdGzKXX1wrtBFZD8cBSQMl/eiHIB72H9R5 Pu5ZDje/exuZTA5u1JHak5TXyEwYWegltOqHKRVkSheCIkNJIOJ9+dXKN23xLolyjtgz 53WuvK/k16eqDIiYIsf+C9HTQAxnhIOUZdlSbOjO9D01jokRShllYd0ni2HpZkvliPKc pE/DuYbjXtBB72qHeJBJQzJ4UPvxf4n4A7yEBeZrQMoCbfxDPBJOjzOErIuIL19qbfAj wCOUO2yD1Fe0IeUafh3QivTvA3Xq7gJPgYiahlBXzp9r7uvbixGaBiIDsRPAZGbay7il t3xw== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWaaO4DaIShcCkd7dS1hxWVwRbA8cJEeGgDOUEKG0o1vTgjvu5tD qEpxqLif987i+nQSLLOiWhQsOA3O8y1lYQ5LuCc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/WBHsD6ZOwxHPXS1qlLoJ/V9+cEOZ5HjBQQ6N5ZSCHwXPh1ZDRROUk/BkLlRqc6WhQ44x6+xDeQ1dUeW9O9y8M= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:2eb8:: with SMTP id h53mr13135240qta.18.1545683211945; Mon, 24 Dec 2018 12:26:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 15:26:40 -0500 Message-ID: To: Lou Berger Cc: "Black, David" , detnet WG , =?UTF-8?Q?J=C3=A1nos_Farkas?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c88a36057dca6a28" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] IP Solution and use of DetNet-specific DSCPs (was Re: draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 20:26:54 -0000 --000000000000c88a36057dca6a28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Lou, Thanks for following up. Cheers, Andy On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 3:24 PM Lou Berger wrote: > Andy, > > Just following up on one point on DetNet-specific DSCPs: > > On 12/19/2018 1:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > In that case, the DetNet flows would most probably be a using > > DetNet-specific DSCP, and if the ingress interface isn't properly > > provisioned to know how to process packets with that DSCP, they'll at > > least be reduced to best-effort treatment.. We can also recommend that > > packets with DetNet-specific DSCPs be dropped if they arrive at an > > ingress interface that isn't otherwise provisioned to expect such > packets. > > While I personally think use of DSCPs will be useful in supporting > aggregated DetNet flows, the IP solution draft has no requirement that > operators or vendors restrict DetNet flows to a specific DSCP value. -- > I personally think this is an important design point. > > Happy Holidays! > > Lou > > > --000000000000c88a36057dca6a28 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lou,

Thanks for following up.

Cheers,
Andy


On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 3:24 PM Lou B= erger <lberger@labn.net> wrot= e:
Andy,

Just following up on one point on DetNet-specific DSCPs:

On 12/19/2018 1:11 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote:
> In that case, the DetNet flows would most probably be a using
> DetNet-specific DSCP, and if the ingress interface isn't properly =
> provisioned to know how to process packets with that DSCP, they'll= at
> least be reduced to best-effort treatment.. We can also recommend that=
> packets with DetNet-specific DSCPs be dropped if they arrive at an > ingress interface that isn't otherwise provisioned to expect such = packets.

While I personally think use of DSCPs will be useful in supporting
aggregated DetNet flows, the IP solution draft has no requirement that
operators or vendors restrict DetNet flows to a specific DSCP value.=C2=A0 = --
I personally think this is an important design point.

Happy Holidays!

Lou


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Received: from pool-72-66-11-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([72.66.11.201]:53046 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gbppX-00420W-KE; Tue, 25 Dec 2018 09:45:19 -0700 To: "Black, David" , =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= , DetNet WG References: <31151608-0a6b-1aee-3f86-d3727b77d5d5@labn.net> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <90f0d465-4ec7-3ec6-7040-b67bd7afd108@labn.net> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 11:45:20 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 72.66.11.201 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1gbppX-00420W-KE X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-72-66-11-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [72.66.11.201]:53046 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 3 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 16:45:27 -0000 Hi David, On 12/24/2018 8:29 PM, Black, David wrote: > Hi Lou, > > Excerpting key paragraphs ... > >> To me clear, you are suggesting that text be added to say that sending >> detnet traffic out a non-detnet interfaces must be treated as a fault. >> Is this correct? > Not exactly ... > >> If so, I think this is too broad considering that >> there are networks that can provided the required detnet forwarding >> sub-layer service that are not detnet service aware as is mentioned at >> the end of section 4.3.2. (I'll refer to such as "DetNet supporting >> networks" in the next paragraph.) > I agree with where this is headed - sending DetNet traffic into a network > that has not been provisioned to provide the required detnet forwarding > service to that traffic has to be treated as a fault. In this statement, > "provisioned" should be read broadly, e.g., it could be realized via an > administrative decision that the DetNet supporting network has the > available capacity to carry the DetNet traffic that is being sent into it. agreed. >> This said, I think it would be reasonable to make it a requirement that >> DetNet nodes must not forward traffic that doesn't conform with BCP41 >> over a network that is neither a Detnet network or a DetNet supporting >> network. Although this would require a change to the DetNet service >> model, i.e., to know which traffic was conformant/non-conformant. > That's fine with one important twist: > > Any traffic that has been replicated by DetNet packet replication has to > be treated as not conforming with BCP41 because DetNet packet > elimination (of replicated packets) may hide congestion indications > (e.g., delay, ECN CE marks, drops) from the endpoints - a scenario of > particular concern involves the other flow of replicated packets > following a DetNet network path along which nothing goes wrong. > BCP41 is about end-to-end-congestion control, which does not do > anything if DetNet packet elimination hides congestion indications > from the endpoints. This seems reasonable to me. > >>> Beyond this, I think a "SHOULD" requirement to discard DetNet traffic >>> that would otherwise escape is needed, and the statement of that >>> requirement ought to be connected to the explanation of how to >>> implement that requirement. >> I think adding a statement on output filters (and policers) to this >> section is reasonable. > Let's start with the inclusion of output filters (and policers) in the 3.3.2 > text with the use of upper-case "SHOULD" as suggested by Pascal - I will > look this over and suggest any additional text that I think ought to be > included. As an architecture document, the authors/WG made the call to not use conformance capitalization or reference 2119/8174.  I think this translates to the conformance language needing to be added to the data plane solution documents. Cheers, Lou > Thanks, --David > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] >> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 3:18 PM >> To: Black, David; János Farkas; DetNet WG >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10 >> >> >> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] >> >> Hi David, >> >> On 12/19/2018 12:37 PM, Black, David wrote: >>> Janos, >>> >>> The terminology is definitely improved - the resulting draft is much >>> clearer - many thanks to you and the authors for doing that. >> Happy to hear that. >> >> >>> Where do we stand on the concern about protecting external >>> non-DetNet networks from DetNet flows that escape a DetNet >>> network, e.g., due to an erroneous network configuration change? >> I'm not sure we have general solutions in the internet architecture for >> miss-configured/buggy systems other than dropping the packets on the >> floor (e.g., due to no route, no label, or ttl expiry).  What type of >> protection are you looking for here, and can you provide a reference to >> the type of router behavior you would like to see?  I have a suggestion >> that might address your concern below elated to non-BCP41 conformant >> traffic, but am unsure if this is what you are concerned about. >> >>> My current views are ... >>> >>> There's no throttling in DetNet, e.g., this text in 4.3.2: >>> >>> There is no provision in DetNet for throttling DetNet flows, i.e., >>> the transmission rate cannot be reduced via explicit congestion >>> notification [RFC3168]. The assumption is that a DetNet flow, to be >>> useful, must be delivered in its entirety. >> Well looking at it this way, there is no throttling in any IP network as >> the routers generate the CN and only drop when their queues are full or >> implementing some sort of RED. >> >> In DetNet there is an expectation that intermediate nodes do more than >> this.  Specifically, see section 4.5: "Queuing, Shaping, Scheduling, and >> Preemption" and policing, which is mentioned as requirement in section >> 3.3.1. >> >>> and no assurance that all DetNet-using applications will cease and desist >>> in the face of packet drops that indicate congestion. >> I think this is correct. >> >> >>> Packet Replication and Elimination makes this worse via its ability to hide >>> network packet drops and congestion indications from endpoints, e.g., >>> of those drops and/or congestion indications occur on only one of >>> the paths used by replicated packets. >>> >>> The first paragraph in section 3.3.2 is a good start, but I think its lower >>> case "should" is too weak: >>> >>> Robust real-time systems require to reduce the number of possible >>> failures. Filters and policers should be used in a DetNet network to >>> detect if DetNet packets are received on the wrong interface, or at >>> the wrong time, or in too great a volume. Furthermore, filters and >>> policers can take actions to discard the offending packets or flows, >>> or trigger shutting down the offending flow or the offending >>> interface. >>> >>> At a minimum, I think that the requirement to discard DetNet traffic >>> that would otherwise escape a DetNet network has to be stated as >>> a "MUST" requirement for any DetNet network that supports Packet >>> Replication and Elimination due to the ability of that functionality >>> to hide congestion from endpoints, making it impossible for higher >>> layers of the protocol stack to respond. >> To me clear, your are suggesting that text be added to say that sending >> detnet traffic out a non-detnet interfaces must be treated as a fault. >> Is this correct?  If so, I think this is too broad considering that >> there are networks that can provided the required detnet forwarding >> sub-layer service that are not detnet service aware as is mentioned at >> the end of section 4.3.2. (I'll refer to such as "DetNet supporting >> networks" in the next paragraph.) >> >> This said, I think it would be reasonable to make it a requirement that >> DetNet nodes must not forward traffic that doesn't conform with BCP41 >> over a network that is neither a Detnet network or a DetNet supporting >> network.  Although this would require a change to the DetNet service >> model, i.e.,  to know which traffic was conformant/non-conformant. >> >> >>> Beyond this, I think a "SHOULD" requirement to discard DetNet traffic >>> that would otherwise escape is needed, and the statement of that >>> requirement ought to be connected to the explanation of how to >>> implement that requirement. >> I think adding a statement on output filters (and policiers) to this >> section is reasonable. >> >> >>> The text in Section 3.3.2 has a lot of >>> the content needed - for a worked example of such "SHOULD" text, >>> see Section 5 of RFC 7510, in particular the itemized list at the end of >>> that section and the paragraph that introduces that list: >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7510#section-5 >> If I'm not mistaken, such mechanisms are already included in the >> document and you really are just asking them to be (re)listed to ensure >> that this import point isn't missed.  Is this correct? Besides what is >> mentioned above, is there anything else missing? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Lou >> >>> Thanks, --David >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of János Farkas >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:54 AM >>>> To: DetNet WG >>>> Subject: [Detnet] draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10 >>>> >>>> >>>> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> The DetNet architecture document has been updated to address the >>>> comments. The new revision (v10) is available at >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-10. >>>> >>>> There have been a number of discussion items emails on the list. The >>>> updates are along the major discussion items, which also cover the >>>> derivative discussions, address the comments. >>>> >>>> The major items have been summarized in: >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg01968.html. >>>> Follow up discussions implied terminology changes summarized in: >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg02036.html: >>>> replace "transport sub-layer" with "forwarding sub-layer" >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg02038.html: >>>> replace "congestion protection" with "resource" allocation" >>>> Consequently, the document had a good 'scurb". >>>> >>>> In addition, outstanding comments have been addressed along >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg01943.html. >>>> >>>> Please let us know if any comment happened to be remained open. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Janos >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> detnet mailing list >>>> detnet@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>>