From nobody Tue Apr 9 09:40:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B36120423 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2019 09:40:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dolby.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c9-2Hg4BBblY for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2019 09:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM04-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr700120.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.70.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E41CA1201AE for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2019 09:40:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dolby.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=SJeEh5JIi1BUdTNWABFYFG27YIt9ShZ4bUKQD6olr+4=; b=AyiWuRzNeM+/ox4w1jSOMmA/5fw4IcCjkFyo9aFfgjFptVyW5pha5pDJmhcs/OqK3wVsYvHYz5+6emCnvSb8laMRcpVI5xrBFMVVBk0I+nze6f9b6V+VAtJq9u6zn5PwcALwB1/r0k9EIg6Ii5cx990OcoUE+c4SkDXmCj/3YyY= Received: from BYAPR06MB4325.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (52.135.240.140) by BYAPR06MB5832.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (20.179.156.93) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1771.16; Tue, 9 Apr 2019 16:40:11 +0000 Received: from BYAPR06MB4325.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b89f:9d03:a203:c6a4]) by BYAPR06MB4325.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b89f:9d03:a203:c6a4%3]) with mapi id 15.20.1771.021; Tue, 9 Apr 2019 16:40:11 +0000 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: DetNet WG Thread-Topic: IETF 104 DetNet WG session notes Thread-Index: AdTu8lcPV/34NVmnScqmNywJkXVzXA== Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 16:40:11 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-dg-ref: PG1ldGE+PGF0IG5tPSJib2R5Lmh0bWwiIHA9ImM6XHVzZXJzXGVhZ3Jvc1xhcHBkYXRhXHJvYW1pbmdcMDlkODQ5YjYtMzJkMy00YTQwLTg1ZWUtNmI4NGJhMjllMzViXG1zZ3NcbXNnLTIxZjg2MzY2LTVhZTYtMTFlOS04NTA1LWFjYmMzMjdhNTFjNlxhbWUtdGVzdFwyMWY4NjM2Ny01YWU2LTExZTktODUwNS1hY2JjMzI3YTUxYzZib2R5Lmh0bWwiIHN6PSIyMTY1IiB0PSIxMzE5OTMwMTYwOTIyNTUyMDMiIGg9IjFycHcyb2RnZ3VsTkZnU1lzS2QvVXF5Y29KZz0iIGlkPSIiIGJsPSIwIiBibz0iMSIvPjwvbWV0YT4= authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=eagros@dolby.com; x-originating-ip: [46.218.58.220] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 422a5d8d-acb0-4166-a8a7-08d6bd0a0919 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600139)(711020)(4605104)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:BYAPR06MB5832; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR06MB5832: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 3 x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-forefront-prvs: 000227DA0C x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(136003)(396003)(39860400002)(346002)(366004)(376002)(199004)(189003)(53754006)(9326002)(6116002)(478600001)(81166006)(8936002)(6506007)(102836004)(790700001)(97736004)(7696005)(8676002)(3846002)(256004)(81156014)(4744005)(86362001)(5660300002)(71200400001)(71190400001)(4743002)(6916009)(52536014)(9686003)(55016002)(316002)(7736002)(25786009)(66066001)(236005)(486006)(54896002)(966005)(74316002)(2906002)(6306002)(606006)(106356001)(105586002)(186003)(26005)(476003)(6436002)(68736007)(99286004)(33656002)(53936002)(14454004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BYAPR06MB5832; H:BYAPR06MB4325.namprd06.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: dolby.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: FRXpGsCaP8zeoqbttUMiXqxxpFhv+jgiOXdd/UHq1Uhw0+obZTAB5B6hW6VnHZtoO6OgVKS85wH7MonzMyHV5B7uuP0B5uAwmMhB/urL2TxF0Omd/GtbHbZtTODpP5JiCXkBMUOCf5VQRQgroHsYybHtlmkDfFx51oCbRiHBYGbYNhFSRBlx7N3U8yi84m9XW7xxeaDJJcUDg8AFGrdhacs6JRspLuz7COqCaffWKIs3d4qnMs6feE9ONtAMNMBW78ZNOpRRQhhKiqJd3WSPOPuDM8k8yjDc581qi1sN1CY/9WmYDZ3ihqtlDYLK3zy5tUh2GvXaGfExw1R79ugJHjhxWcM4kLVT2XRsUUWCSXZOrv2CAKS1LYh5GWGMv1LsF4GxcR+Irg4vcWVjA1zWHqWbWfS2LGPNvkginvFMNOk= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BYAPR06MB43252E07E8C3DF6FAB7F3647C42D0BYAPR06MB4325namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: dolby.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 422a5d8d-acb0-4166-a8a7-08d6bd0a0919 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Apr 2019 16:40:11.9122 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 05408d25-cd0d-40c8-8962-5462de64a318 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR06MB5832 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] IETF 104 DetNet WG session notes X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2019 16:40:16 -0000 --_000_BYAPR06MB43252E07E8C3DF6FAB7F3647C42D0BYAPR06MB4325namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, I have reconciled the notes from our meeting against the video/audio record= ing, so I claim they are now "done". If anyone else wants to have a crack a= t them please do so soon, so that we can submit them. https://etherpad.tools.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-104-detnet Best, Ethan (as DetNet WG Secretary). --_000_BYAPR06MB43252E07E8C3DF6FAB7F3647C42D0BYAPR06MB4325namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi All,

I have reconciled the notes from our meeting against= the video/audio recording, so I claim they are now “done”. If = anyone else wants to have a crack at them please do so soon, so that we can= submit them.

https://etherpad.tools.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-104-detnet=

 

Best,

Ethan (as DetNet WG Secretary).

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Fri, 12 Apr 2019 13:08:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Alissa Cooper Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_15E14D25-18BF-4818-B81A-8F9CD319FF51" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 13:08:02 -0400 In-Reply-To: <0f7e2d9a-bf74-b5ea-6898-29ad2129a0c0@ericsson.com> Cc: Lou Berger , draft-ietf-detnet-architecture@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org, IESG , detnet-chairs@ietf.org To: =?utf-8?Q?J=C3=A1nos_Farkas?= References: <155067447797.31337.768983002923056061.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <40b28261-5f04-7fcd-4f4f-ce243f32a808@labn.net> <1AA376D8-DE94-4FAF-B9D2-CC4E155CEC85@cooperw.in> <0f7e2d9a-bf74-b5ea-6898-29ad2129a0c0@ericsson.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 17:08:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_15E14D25-18BF-4818-B81A-8F9CD319FF51 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi J=C3=A1nos, > On Mar 25, 2019, at 12:16 PM, J=C3=A1nos Farkas = wrote: >=20 > Hi Alissa, >=20 > We believe that we have addressed your comments in the most recent = revision: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-12 = . = (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/utVL9ZVGcOeGtRIASRFx5WT_ErM = = ) >=20 > Please let us know what else you would like to see done before you = clear your DISCUSS. >=20 > I/we would be happy to meet with you this week if there is anything = you would like to discuss. >=20 > Regards, > Janos >=20 >=20 > On 2/26/2019 2:20 PM, J=C3=A1nos Farkas wrote: >> Hi Alissa, >>=20 >> Thank you for your review! >>=20 >> We can replace=20 >> "DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does not >> directly raise any new privacy considerations." >> with >> "DetNet provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, is not = expected to >> directly raise any new privacy considerations.=E2=80=9D I don=E2=80=99t understand why this is not expected. =46rom what I can = tell, the architecture allows for the use off domain- or = app-flow-specific IDs. These seem like a new potential vector for = tracking, and one that not every QoS architecture requires. This edit also doesn=E2=80=99t seem to cover the potential for = additional privacy exposure implied by the discussion of OAM in Section = 4.1.1: "OAM can involve specific tagging added in the packets for tracing = implementation or network configuration errors; traceability enables to find whether a packet is a replica, which DetNet relay node performed the replication, and which segment was intended for the replica. Active and hybrid OAM methods require additional bandwidth to perform fault management and performance monitoring of the DetNet domain. OAM may, for instance, generate special test probes or add OAM information into the data packet.=E2=80=9D Thanks, Alissa >>=20 >> I'm not sure what "references to new flow IDs and OAM tags should be = removed"? >>=20 >> Could you point to the text that should be changed? >>=20 >> Thank you! >> Janos >>=20 >>=20 >> On 2/20/2019 4:39 PM, Lou Berger wrote: >>>=20 >>> On 2/20/2019 10:25 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On Feb 20, 2019, at 7:17 AM, Lou Berger > wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hi Alissa, >>>>>=20 >>>>> Thanks for the comments - see below. >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 2/20/2019 9:54 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: >>>>>> Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for >>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-11: Discuss >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to = all >>>>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to = cut this >>>>>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html = >>>>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found = here: >>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture/ = >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> DISCUSS: >>>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =3D Section 6 =3D >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> "DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does = not >>>>>> directly raise any new privacy considerations." >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> This seems like a false statement given the possibility that = DetNet may require >>>>>> novel flow IDs and OAM tags that create additional identification = and >>>>>> correlation risk beyond existing fields used to support QoS = today. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Based on the other work in the WG, I think "is not expected" is = more accurate than "does not". This is based on the WG solutions for the = DetNet data plane using existing IP (v4 or 6) headers or MPLS labels for = flow identification. >>>>=20 >>>> If that is the case then the references to new flow IDs and OAM = tags should be removed from the architecture. >>> sounds reasonable. Can you point to the specific offending text? >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>>=20 >>> Lou >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Would changing to "is not expected" address your concern? >>>>=20 >>>> Combined with the above removals, that would work for me. >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks, >>>> Alissa >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Thanks, >>>>>=20 >>>>> Lou >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> detnet mailing list >>>> detnet@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet = >>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_15E14D25-18BF-4818-B81A-8F9CD319FF51 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = J=C3=A1nos,


On Mar = 25, 2019, at 12:16 PM, J=C3=A1nos Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com> wrote:

=20 =20
Hi Alissa,

We believe that we have addressed your comments in the most recent revision: htt= ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-12. (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/utVL9ZVGcOeGtRIASRFx5= WT_ErM)

Please let us know what else you would like to see done before you clear your DISCUSS.

I/we would be happy to meet with you this week if there is anything you would like to discuss.

Regards,
Janos


On 2/26/2019 2:20 PM, J=C3=A1nos = Farkas wrote:
= Hi Alissa,

Thank you for your review!

We can replace
"DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does not
   directly raise any new privacy considerations."
with
"DetNet provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, is not expected to
   directly raise any new privacy = considerations.=E2=80=9D

I don=E2=80=99t = understand why this is not expected. =46rom what I can tell, the = architecture allows for the use off domain- or app-flow-specific IDs. = These seem like a new potential vector for tracking, and one that not = every QoS architecture requires.

This edit also doesn=E2=80=99t seem to cover the potential = for additional privacy exposure implied by the discussion of OAM in = Section 4.1.1:

"OAM can = involve specific tagging added in the packets for = tracing implementation or
   network configuration errors; traceability =
enables to find whether a
   packet is a replica, which DetNet relay node performed the
   replication, and which segment was intended for the replica.  Active
   and hybrid OAM methods require additional bandwidth to perform fault
   management and performance monitoring of the DetNet domain.  OAM may,
   for instance, generate special test probes or add OAM information
   into the data packet.=E2=80=9D

Thanks,
Alissa


=
I'm not sure what "references to new flow IDs and OAM tags should be removed"?

Could you point to the text that should be changed?

Thank you!
Janos


On 2/20/2019 4:39 PM, Lou Berger wrote:


On 2/20/2019 10:25 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote:
=

On Feb 20, 2019, at 7:17 AM, Lou Berger = <lberger@labn.net> wrote:

Hi Alissa,

Thanks for the comments - see below.

On 2/20/2019 9:54 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote:
Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-11: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crite= ria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detne= t-architecture/



= ----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
= ----------------------------------------------------------------------

=3D Section 6 =3D

"DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does not
   directly raise any new privacy = considerations."

This seems like a false statement given the possibility that DetNet may require
novel flow IDs and OAM tags that create additional identification and
correlation risk beyond existing fields used to support QoS today.

Based on the other work in the WG, I think "is not expected" is more accurate than "does not". This is based on the WG solutions for the DetNet data plane using existing IP (v4 or 6) headers or MPLS labels for flow identification.

If that is the case then the references to = new flow IDs and OAM tags should be removed from the = architecture.

sounds reasonable.  Can you = point to the specific offending text?

Thanks,

Lou



Would changing to "is not expected" address your = concern?

Combined with the above removals, that would = work for me.

Thanks,
Alissa


Thanks,

Lou


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= --Apple-Mail=_15E14D25-18BF-4818-B81A-8F9CD319FF51-- From nobody Mon Apr 15 04:56:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAE7C120096; Mon, 15 Apr 2019 04:56:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind_via_Datatracker?= To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-architecture@ietf.org, Lou Berger , detnet-chairs@ietf.org, lberger@labn.net, detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.95.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= Message-ID: <155532936068.10827.6039363810956335567.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 04:56:00 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draf?= =?utf-8?q?t-ietf-detnet-architecture-12=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 11:56:01 -0000 Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-12: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for addressing my discuss. One more minor comment: I see the reference to bufferbloat in section 3.2.1.1, however, I guess the reference would actually be even more need in section 3.3.2. I agree with Alexey and Benjamin that this document should be informational. Informational documents can also have IETF consensus, so that cannot be the reason to go for PS. However, this document does not specify a protocol or any requirements that are mandatory to implement for interoperability and therefore should not be PS. From nobody Mon Apr 15 14:08:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC67812023E for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2019 14:08:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LgerTSvEklrc for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2019 14:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C145212022A for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2019 14:08:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=ericsson.com; s=mailgw201801; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; i=@ericsson.com; t=1555362483; x=1557954483; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:CC:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=zBMa7UxyCU+0F0kY3obQfVtc2FWRZu6Rf6E715VQC/c=; b=UlDPDUfATUPD9tt/eFx8ZRPZzJHEwjmVwvvN6ZcuAtu9dOe0tJUoMYmEyY7vbKFo YG6oBMCNpchtTAcHFAJMVLTYgB+7ePKWD8KLk+BeVzNG1w4xoPe7+39BtcXkivGM 1Lxlpph0jhk07ZFc43391TSE9vEXwvwD43aKZr5mmpQ=; X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-49dff70000001b0f-5f-5cb4f2b347a7 Received: from ESESSMB503.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.121]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 2C.3F.06927.3B2F4BC5; Mon, 15 Apr 2019 23:08:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESBMR501.ericsson.se (153.88.183.129) by ESESSMB503.ericsson.se (153.88.183.164) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1713.5; Mon, 15 Apr 2019 23:08:02 +0200 Received: from ESESSMB501.ericsson.se (153.88.183.162) by ESESBMR501.ericsson.se (153.88.183.129) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1713.5; Mon, 15 Apr 2019 23:08:02 +0200 Received: from [100.94.57.128] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.189) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 15 Apr 2019 23:08:02 +0200 References: <155067447797.31337.768983002923056061.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <40b28261-5f04-7fcd-4f4f-ce243f32a808@labn.net> <1AA376D8-DE94-4FAF-B9D2-CC4E155CEC85@cooperw.in> <0f7e2d9a-bf74-b5ea-6898-29ad2129a0c0@ericsson.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= To: Alissa Cooper CC: Lou Berger , , , IESG , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 23:08:02 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------C355BA2408FBC393368D660E" Content-Language: en-US X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprFIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7pe7mT1tiDLpX81tMP/OX0eJa/w8W i9+fZrNYfPg2k8Vixp+JzBYdzW9ZHNg8vjx5yeSxZMlPJo8Pm5rZApijuGxSUnMyy1KL9O0S uDI2nogqmHeEqeLvx0nMDYyvDjN2MXJySAiYSEzvXsPcxcjFISRwlFHibvcXFgjnG6PEzze7 mOCcrfcvsYC0CAkcYZS4848DxBYWKJDov7Acqr2FWaJ7+iR2kASbgL3E3UsbmEFsEQFViavH frCBFDELrGGU6NzwHizBC1R0oLkbzGYBKjq5ZAMTiC0qECvx6cpiqBpBiZMzn4Bt5hSwk2ib uxDMZhYIk7g1ZworhC0ucevJfCaI69Qk3jfcYZzAKDQLSfssJC2zkLRA2BYSM+efZ4Sw5SWa t85mhrA1JFrnzGVHFl/AyL6KUbQ4tTgpN93IWC+1KDO5uDg/Ty8vtWQTIzDGDm75rbqD8fIb x0OMAhyMSjy8f+5siRFiTSwrrsw9xCjBwawkwuuYAhTiTUmsrEotyo8vKs1JLT7EKM3BoiTO +0dIMEZIID2xJDU7NbUgtQgmy8TBKdXA2OjINOXisrmPFp6Yb6uj0MqrsOLF3jdf1bmTfHvV zqjdOfl92t3eoDNGZTwHss4o73+6+96G6tVu887tzRdfdE7FWrZFPk1i1neW21V+jxi2xlz5 sS37srKm0oKDhxfebG8/cqf91lMV9/38T/P9gpLSZ+epM/+x+piUWdcdst3w7bXtLRpuxUos xRmJhlrMRcWJAKfHkAitAgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 21:08:12 -0000 --------------C355BA2408FBC393368D660E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Alissa, Please see in-line. On 4/12/2019 7:08 PM, Alissa Cooper wrote: > Hi János, > > >> On Mar 25, 2019, at 12:16 PM, János Farkas > > wrote: >> >> Hi Alissa, >> >> We believe that we have addressed your comments in the most recent >> revision: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-12. >> (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/utVL9ZVGcOeGtRIASRFx5WT_ErM) >> >> Please let us know what else you would like to see done before you >> clear your DISCUSS. >> >> I/we would be happy to meet with you this week if there is anything >> you would like to discuss. >> >> Regards, >> Janos >> >> >> On 2/26/2019 2:20 PM, János Farkas wrote: >>> Hi Alissa, >>> >>> Thank you for your review! >>> >>> We can replace >>> "DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does not >>>    directly raise any new privacy considerations." >>> with >>> "DetNet provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, is not >>> expected to >>>    directly raise any new privacy considerations.” > > I don’t understand why this is not expected. From what I can tell, the > architecture allows for the use off domain- or app-flow-specific IDs. > These seem like a new potential vector for tracking, and one that not > every QoS architecture requires. As far as I understood from below, you were happy with the change to "is not expected". Combined that with this discussion on the related text: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/-L_wsGPMqNEOtPMgsGYaJ30nFXk We came to the current text:    DetNet provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, is not    expected to directly raise any new privacy considerations, the    generic considerations for such mechanisms apply.  In particular,    such markings allow for an attacker to correlate flows or to select    particular types of flow for more detailed inspection. Flow ID and associated QoS is not a new concept introduced by DetNet; therefore, does not expected to raise new concerns. What specific further changes do you suggest to this text? > > This edit also doesn’t seem to cover the potential for additional > privacy exposure implied by the discussion of OAM in Section 4.1.1: Thank you for making clear that this is the text you mean under "novel flow IDs and OAM tags" below. It was not clear to me because the architecture document does not contain either new / novel   Flow ID / OAM tag. > > "OAM can involve specific tagging added in the packets for tracing > implementation or > network configuration errors; traceability enables to find whether a > packet is a replica, which DetNet relay node performed the > replication, and which segment was intended for the replica. This text is there since: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-finn-detnet-architecture-05. > Active and hybrid OAM methods require additional bandwidth to perform > fault management and performance monitoring of the DetNet domain. OAM > may, for instance, generate special test probes or add OAM information > into the data packet.” This was added based on https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg01577.html. This paragraph reads to me as pretty generic text on OAM. What specific cahnge would you like to see made to this text? Should we, e.g., update the first sentence of the paragraph to:    OAM can support tracing implementation or    network configuration errors. Traceability enables to find whether a    packet is a replica, which DetNet relay node performed the    replication, and which segment was intended for the replica. ? Regards, János > Thanks, > Alissa > >>> >>> I'm not sure what "references to new flow IDs and OAM tags should be >>> removed"? >>> >>> Could you point to the text that should be changed? >>> >>> Thank you! >>> Janos >>> >>> >>> On 2/20/2019 4:39 PM, Lou Berger wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2/20/2019 10:25 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Feb 20, 2019, at 7:17 AM, Lou Berger >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Alissa, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for the comments - see below. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2/20/2019 9:54 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: >>>>>>> Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for >>>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-11: Discuss >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply >>>>>>> to all >>>>>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to >>>>>>> cut this >>>>>>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please refer to >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>>>>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >>>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> DISCUSS: >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> = Section 6 = >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, >>>>>>> does not >>>>>>>    directly raise any new privacy considerations." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This seems like a false statement given the possibility that >>>>>>> DetNet may require >>>>>>> novel flow IDs and OAM tags that create additional >>>>>>> identification and >>>>>>> correlation risk beyond existing fields used to support QoS today. >>>>>> >>>>>> Based on the other work in the WG, I think "is not expected" is >>>>>> more accurate than "does not". This is based on the WG solutions >>>>>> for the DetNet data plane using existing IP (v4 or 6) headers or >>>>>> MPLS labels for flow identification. >>>>> >>>>> If that is the case then the references to new flow IDs and OAM >>>>> tags should be removed from the architecture. >>>> >>>> sounds reasonable.  Can you point to the specific offending text? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Lou >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Would changing to "is not expected" address your concern? >>>>> >>>>> Combined with the above removals, that would work for me. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Alissa >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Lou >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> detnet mailing list >>>>> detnet@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>> >> > --------------C355BA2408FBC393368D660E Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Alissa,

Please see in-line.

On 4/12/2019 7:08 PM, Alissa Cooper wrote:
Hi János,


On Mar 25, 2019, at 12:16 PM, János Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi Alissa,

We believe that we have addressed your comments in the most recent revision: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-12. (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/utVL9ZVGcOeGtRIASRFx5WT_ErM)

Please let us know what else you would like to see done before you clear your DISCUSS.

I/we would be happy to meet with you this week if there is anything you would like to discuss.

Regards,
Janos


On 2/26/2019 2:20 PM, János Farkas wrote:
Hi Alissa,

Thank you for your review!

We can replace
"DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does not
   directly raise any new privacy considerations."
with
"DetNet provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, is not expected to
   directly raise any new privacy considerations.”

I don’t understand why this is not expected. From what I can tell, the architecture allows for the use off domain- or app-flow-specific IDs. These seem like a new potential vector for tracking, and one that not every QoS architecture requires.
As far as I understood from below, you were happy with the change to "is not expected".

Combined that with this discussion on the related text:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/-L_wsGPMqNEOtPMgsGYaJ30nFXk

We came to the current text:
   DetNet provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, is not
   expected to directly raise any new privacy considerations, the
   generic considerations for such mechanisms apply.  In particular,
   such markings allow for an attacker to correlate flows or to select
   particular types of flow for more detailed inspection.


Flow ID and associated QoS is not a new concept introduced by DetNet; therefore, does not expected to raise new concerns.

What specific further changes do you suggest to this text?


This edit also doesn’t seem to cover the potential for additional privacy exposure implied by the discussion of OAM in Section 4.1.1:
Thank you for making clear that this is the text you mean under "novel flow IDs and OAM tags" below. It was not clear to me because the architecture document does not contain either new / novel   Flow ID / OAM tag.


"OAM can involve specific tagging added in the packets for tracing implementation or
   network configuration errors; traceability enables to find whether a
   packet is a replica, which DetNet relay node performed the
   replication, and which segment was intended for the replica.

This text is there since: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-finn-detnet-architecture-05.

Active
   and hybrid OAM methods require additional bandwidth to perform fault
   management and performance monitoring of the DetNet domain.  OAM may,
   for instance, generate special test probes or add OAM information
   into the data packet.”
This was added based on https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg01577.html.

This paragraph reads to me as pretty generic text on OAM.

What specific cahnge would you like to see made to this text?

Should we, e.g., update the first sentence of the paragraph to:
   OAM can support tracing implementation or
   network configuration errors. Traceability enables to find whether a
   packet is a replica, which DetNet relay node performed the
   replication, and which segment was intended for the replica.

?

Regards,
János





Thanks,
Alissa


I'm not sure what "references to new flow IDs and OAM tags should be removed"?

Could you point to the text that should be changed?

Thank you!
Janos


On 2/20/2019 4:39 PM, Lou Berger wrote:


On 2/20/2019 10:25 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote:


On Feb 20, 2019, at 7:17 AM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> wrote:

Hi Alissa,

Thanks for the comments - see below.

On 2/20/2019 9:54 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote:
Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-11: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

= Section 6 =

"DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does not
   directly raise any new privacy considerations."

This seems like a false statement given the possibility that DetNet may require
novel flow IDs and OAM tags that create additional identification and
correlation risk beyond existing fields used to support QoS today.

Based on the other work in the WG, I think "is not expected" is more accurate than "does not". This is based on the WG solutions for the DetNet data plane using existing IP (v4 or 6) headers or MPLS labels for flow identification.

If that is the case then the references to new flow IDs and OAM tags should be removed from the architecture.

sounds reasonable.  Can you point to the specific offending text?

Thanks,

Lou



Would changing to "is not expected" address your concern?

Combined with the above removals, that would work for me.

Thanks,
Alissa


Thanks,

Lou


_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet




--------------C355BA2408FBC393368D660E-- From nobody Mon Apr 15 18:25:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE6AB1202F8 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2019 18:25:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dolby.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vjk3peZOEqJP for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2019 18:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM02-BL2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr750100.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.75.100]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02A001202E5 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2019 18:24:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dolby.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=JN0DfMXQQK5AnQ2GEsMzu5b/EBocUK9KDbF8JqSN1J0=; b=gO/mu7+6kh2/SrS/1gsxG3E25aV+1v9TaLWinzSt5D4W7B45jh0noWWtfJAteOUv9WEqC3N4EujYlnLGAgrmcdAZkJh78kMsR1FPz+L6nR3QhUdkctTbkYnFGv8PkJefeD19KG09WVyMCYp0S8qu8nngcygapLoVcv1Rc1vMS6U= Received: from BYAPR06MB4325.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (52.135.240.140) by BYAPR06MB4696.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (52.135.236.75) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1792.18; Tue, 16 Apr 2019 01:24:57 +0000 Received: from BYAPR06MB4325.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b89f:9d03:a203:c6a4]) by BYAPR06MB4325.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b89f:9d03:a203:c6a4%3]) with mapi id 15.20.1792.018; Tue, 16 Apr 2019 01:24:57 +0000 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." 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Tue, 16 Apr 2019 18:29:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <155067447797.31337.768983002923056061.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <40b28261-5f04-7fcd-4f4f-ce243f32a808@labn.net> <1AA376D8-DE94-4FAF-B9D2-CC4E155CEC85@cooperw.in> <0f7e2d9a-bf74-b5ea-6898-29ad2129a0c0@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 18:29:10 -0700 Message-ID: To: Alissa Cooper Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?J=C3=A1nos_Farkas?= , draft-ietf-detnet-architecture@ietf.org, DetNet WG , Lou Berger , IESG , DetNet Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000975fd50586afd0df" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 01:29:43 -0000 --000000000000975fd50586afd0df Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Alisa, I agree with your observation that the reporting of the location of replication, duplicate elimination and the order preservation functions within a DetNet domain presents the new security concern and may be the threat to the privacy of data. To address your concern, may I propose the following text: To protect against unauthorized sources trying to obtain DetNet network information, e.g., location of replication, elimination, or packet order preservation functions, it is RECOMMENDED that DetNet implementations provide a means of checking the source addresses of queries against an access list before accepting them. We'll have a more detailed analysis of the new security threats possible resulting from specific to DetNet OAM functions in the DetNet OAM draft . Best regards, Greg On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 10:08 AM Alissa Cooper wrote: > Hi J=C3=A1nos, > > > On Mar 25, 2019, at 12:16 PM, J=C3=A1nos Farkas > wrote: > > Hi Alissa, > > We believe that we have addressed your comments in the most recent > revision: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-12. = ( > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/utVL9ZVGcOeGtRIASRFx5WT_ErM) > > Please let us know what else you would like to see done before you clear > your DISCUSS. > > I/we would be happy to meet with you this week if there is anything you > would like to discuss. > > Regards, > Janos > > > On 2/26/2019 2:20 PM, J=C3=A1nos Farkas wrote: > > Hi Alissa, > > Thank you for your review! > > We can replace > "DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does not > directly raise any new privacy considerations." > with > "DetNet provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, is not expected > to > directly raise any new privacy considerations.=E2=80=9D > > > I don=E2=80=99t understand why this is not expected. From what I can tell= , the > architecture allows for the use off domain- or app-flow-specific IDs. The= se > seem like a new potential vector for tracking, and one that not every QoS > architecture requires. > > This edit also doesn=E2=80=99t seem to cover the potential for additional= privacy > exposure implied by the discussion of OAM in Section 4.1.1: > > "OAM can involve specific tagging added in the packets for tracing > implementation or > > network configuration errors; traceability enables to find whether a > packet is a replica, which DetNet relay node performed the > replication, and which segment was intended for the replica. Active > and hybrid OAM methods require additional bandwidth to perform fault > management and performance monitoring of the DetNet domain. OAM may, > for instance, generate special test probes or add OAM information > into the data packet.=E2=80=9D > > > Thanks, > > Alissa > > > > > I'm not sure what "references to new flow IDs and OAM tags should be > removed"? > > Could you point to the text that should be changed? > > Thank you! > Janos > > > On 2/20/2019 4:39 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > > > On 2/20/2019 10:25 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: > > > > On Feb 20, 2019, at 7:17 AM, Lou Berger wrote: > > Hi Alissa, > > Thanks for the comments - see below. > > On 2/20/2019 9:54 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: > > Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-11: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > =3D Section 6 =3D > > "DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does not > directly raise any new privacy considerations." > > This seems like a false statement given the possibility that DetNet may > require > novel flow IDs and OAM tags that create additional identification and > correlation risk beyond existing fields used to support QoS today. > > > Based on the other work in the WG, I think "is not expected" is more > accurate than "does not". This is based on the WG solutions for the DetNe= t > data plane using existing IP (v4 or 6) headers or MPLS labels for flow > identification. > > > If that is the case then the references to new flow IDs and OAM tags > should be removed from the architecture. > > sounds reasonable. Can you point to the specific offending text? > > Thanks, > > Lou > > > > Would changing to "is not expected" address your concern? > > > Combined with the above removals, that would work for me. > > Thanks, > Alissa > > > Thanks, > > Lou > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing listdetnet@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/d= etnet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --000000000000975fd50586afd0df Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Alisa,
I agree with your observati= on that the reporting of the location of replication, duplicate elimination= and the order preservation functions within a DetNet domain presents the n= ew security concern and may be the threat to the privacy of data. To addres= s your concern, may I propose the following text:
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0To protect against unauthorized sources trying=C2=A0to obtain DetNet net= work information,=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0e.g., location of replicatio= n, elimination, or packet order preservation functions,
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0it is RECOMMENDED that DetNet implementations provide a means
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of checking the source addresses of queries against an acce= ss list before accepting
=C2=A0 =C2=A0them.

<= /div>
We'll have a more detailed analysis of the new security threa= ts possible resulting from specific to DetNet OAM functions in the DetNet OAM = draft.

Best regards,
Greg

On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 10:08 AM Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:
= Hi J=C3=A1nos,


O= n Mar 25, 2019, at 12:16 PM, J=C3=A1nos Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com> wr= ote:

=20 =20 =20
Hi Alissa,

We believe that we have addressed your comments in the most recent revision: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-12. (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/utVL9ZVGcOeGtRIAS= RFx5WT_ErM)

Please let us know what else you would like to see done before you clear your DISCUSS.

I/we would be happy to meet with you this week if there is anything you would like to discuss.

Regards,
Janos


On 2/26/2019 = 2:20 PM, J=C3=A1nos Farkas wrote:
=20 Hi Alissa,

Thank you for your review!

We can replace
"DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, doe= s not
=C2=A0=C2=A0 directly raise any new privacy considerations."
with
"DetNet provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, is not expected to
=C2=A0=C2=A0 directly raise any new privacy considerations.=E2=80=9D<= /blockquote>

I don=E2=80=99t understand why this is not expected. From what I can tel= l, the architecture allows for the use off domain- or app-flow-specific IDs= . These seem like a new potential vector for tracking, and one that not eve= ry QoS architecture requires.

This edit also doesn=E2=80=99t seem to = cover the potential for additional privacy exposure implied by the discussi= on of OAM in Section 4.1.1:

"OAM can involve=C2=A0<= /font>specific tagging added in the packe= ts for tracing implementation or
   network configu=
ration errors; traceability enables to find whether a
   packet is a replica, which DetNet relay node performed the
   replication, and which segment was intended for the replica.  Active
   and hybrid OAM methods require additional bandwidth to perform fault
   management and performance monitoring of the DetNet domain.  OAM may,
   for instance, generate special test probes or add OAM information
   into the data packet.=E2=80=9D

= 
Thanks,
Alissa



I'm not sure what "references to new flow IDs and OAM tags s= hould be removed"?

Could you point to the text that should be changed?

Thank you!
Janos


On 2/20/201= 9 4:39 PM, Lou Berger wrote:


On 2/20/2= 019 10:25 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote:


On Feb 20, 2019, at 7:17 AM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> wrote:
Hi Aliss= a,

Thanks for the comments - see below.

On 2/20/2019 9:54 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote:
Alissa Cooper has= entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-11: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/st= atement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf= t-ietf-detnet-architecture/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

=3D Section 6 =3D

"DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and = as such, does not
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0directly raise any new privacy consider= ations."

This seems like a false statement given the possibility that DetNet may require
novel flow IDs and OAM tags that create additional identification and
correlation risk beyond existing fields used to support QoS today.

Based on the other work in the WG, I think "is not expected&q= uot; is more accurate than "does not". This is based on= the WG solutions for the DetNet data plane using existing IP (v4 or 6) headers or MPLS labels for flow identification.

If that is the case then the references to new flow IDs and OAM tags should be removed from the architecture.

sounds reasonable.=C2=A0 Can you point to the speci= fic offending text?

Thanks,

Lou



Would changing to "is not expected" address your conc= ern?

Combined with the above removals, that would work for me.

Thanks,
Alissa


Thanks,

Lou<= /div> 


_________=
______________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf=
.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet



__________________________________= _____________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all: Th RAW mailing list (for Reliable and Available Wireless) was just created = and will supersede PAW. Please subscribe at: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw See you there! Pascal --_000_MN2PR11MB3565EF8FE91C986555F68D78D8250MN2PR11MB3565namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear all:

 

Th RAW mailing list (for Reliable and Available W= ireless) was just created and will supersede PAW.

Please subscribe at:

 

    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw<= /o:p>

 

See you there!

 

Pascal

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In the case of MPLS the usual security model applies, in that the network is well managed, and the only way to get a packet into or out of the the network is via an trusted router that immediately encapsulates the packet or removes any internal encapsulation/metadata. If we manage to develop an IP version, my expectation is that it would need an enhancement to the IPv6 data plane, in which case the design should use the security features that will inevitably required to make SRv6 secure. The other data-plane that we have uses MPLS over UDP encapsulation and needs to inherit the security model from draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip, but that needs to called up the specific data plane specification. I do not see any privacy concerns that are specific to DetNet in the operation of the network. If you are thinking about external tags needed on entry to the network there are none currently specified in the data-plane design. If we introduced any such tags they would raise a huge security issue and the design would inevitably be subjected to a tough security analysis. - Stewart On 17/04/2019 02:29, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Alisa, > I agree with your observation that the reporting of the location of > replication, duplicate elimination and the order preservation functions > within a DetNet domain presents the new security concern and may be the > threat to the privacy of data. To address your concern, may I propose > the following text: >    To protect against unauthorized sources trying to obtain DetNet > network information, >    e.g., location of replication, elimination, or packet order > preservation functions, >    it is RECOMMENDED that DetNet implementations provide a means >    of checking the source addresses of queries against an access list > before accepting >    them. > > We'll have a more detailed analysis of the new security threats possible > resulting from specific to DetNet OAM functions in theDetNet OAM draft > . > > Best regards, > Greg > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 10:08 AM Alissa Cooper > wrote: > > Hi János, > > >> On Mar 25, 2019, at 12:16 PM, János Farkas >> > wrote: >> >> Hi Alissa, >> >> We believe that we have addressed your comments in the most recent >> revision: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-12. >> (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/utVL9ZVGcOeGtRIASRFx5WT_ErM) >> >> Please let us know what else you would like to see done before you >> clear your DISCUSS. >> >> I/we would be happy to meet with you this week if there is >> anything you would like to discuss. >> >> Regards, >> Janos >> >> >> On 2/26/2019 2:20 PM, János Farkas wrote: >>> Hi Alissa, >>> >>> Thank you for your review! >>> >>> We can replace >>> "DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does not >>>    directly raise any new privacy considerations." >>> with >>> "DetNet provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, is not >>> expected to >>>    directly raise any new privacy considerations.” > > I don’t understand why this is not expected. From what I can tell, > the architecture allows for the use off domain- or app-flow-specific > IDs.. These seem like a new potential vector for tracking, and one > that not every QoS architecture requires. > > This edit also doesn’t seem to cover the potential for additional > privacy exposure implied by the discussion of OAM in Section 4.1.1: > > "OAM can involve specific tagging added in the packets for tracing > implementation or > > network configuration errors; traceability enables to find whether a > packet is a replica, which DetNet relay node performed the > replication, and which segment was intended for the replica. Active > and hybrid OAM methods require additional bandwidth to perform fault > management and performance monitoring of the DetNet domain. OAM may, > for instance, generate special test probes or add OAM information > into the data packet.” > > > Thanks, > > Alissa > > > >>> >>> I'm not sure what "references to new flow IDs and OAM tags should >>> be removed"? >>> >>> Could you point to the text that should be changed? >>> >>> Thank you! >>> Janos >>> >>> >>> On 2/20/2019 4:39 PM, Lou Berger wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2/20/2019 10:25 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Feb 20, 2019, at 7:17 AM, Lou Berger >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Alissa, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for the comments - see below. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2/20/2019 9:54 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: >>>>>>> Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for >>>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-11: Discuss >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and >>>>>>> reply to all >>>>>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free >>>>>>> to cut this >>>>>>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please refer to >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>>>>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found >>>>>>> here: >>>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> DISCUSS: >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> = Section 6 = >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, >>>>>>> does not >>>>>>>    directly raise any new privacy considerations." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This seems like a false statement given the possibility that >>>>>>> DetNet may require >>>>>>> novel flow IDs and OAM tags that create additional >>>>>>> identification and >>>>>>> correlation risk beyond existing fields used to support QoS >>>>>>> today. >>>>>> >>>>>> Based on the other work in the WG, I think "is not expected" >>>>>> is more accurate than "does not". This is based on the WG >>>>>> solutions for the DetNet data plane using existing IP (v4 or >>>>>> 6) headers or MPLS labels for flow identification. >>>>> >>>>> If that is the case then the references to new flow IDs and OAM >>>>> tags should be removed from the architecture. >>>> >>>> sounds reasonable.  Can you point to the specific offending text? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Lou >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Would changing to "is not expected" address your concern? >>>>> >>>>> Combined with the above removals, that would work for me. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Alissa >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Lou >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> detnet mailing list >>>>> detnet@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf..org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > From nobody Wed Apr 17 06:33:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBF5912008D; 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Wed, 17 Apr 2019 09:33:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Alissa Cooper Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_79E707F8-4EB5-4C3D-BDB5-507DFFF6DACA" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 09:33:31 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Lou Berger , draft-ietf-detnet-architecture@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org, IESG , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" To: =?utf-8?Q?J=C3=A1nos_Farkas?= References: <155067447797.31337.768983002923056061.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <40b28261-5f04-7fcd-4f4f-ce243f32a808@labn.net> <1AA376D8-DE94-4FAF-B9D2-CC4E155CEC85@cooperw.in> <0f7e2d9a-bf74-b5ea-6898-29ad2129a0c0@ericsson.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 13:33:46 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_79E707F8-4EB5-4C3D-BDB5-507DFFF6DACA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi J=C3=A1nos, > On Apr 15, 2019, at 5:08 PM, J=C3=A1nos Farkas = wrote: >=20 > Hi Alissa, >=20 > Please see in-line. >=20 > On 4/12/2019 7:08 PM, Alissa Cooper wrote: >> Hi J=C3=A1nos, >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Mar 25, 2019, at 12:16 PM, J=C3=A1nos Farkas = > wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Alissa, >>>=20 >>> We believe that we have addressed your comments in the most recent = revision: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-12 = . = (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/utVL9ZVGcOeGtRIASRFx5WT_ErM = = ) >>>=20 >>> Please let us know what else you would like to see done before you = clear your DISCUSS. >>>=20 >>> I/we would be happy to meet with you this week if there is anything = you would like to discuss. >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>> Janos >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 2/26/2019 2:20 PM, J=C3=A1nos Farkas wrote: >>>> Hi Alissa, >>>>=20 >>>> Thank you for your review! >>>>=20 >>>> We can replace=20 >>>> "DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does = not >>>> directly raise any new privacy considerations." >>>> with >>>> "DetNet provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, is not = expected to >>>> directly raise any new privacy considerations.=E2=80=9D >>=20 >> I don=E2=80=99t understand why this is not expected. =46rom what I = can tell, the architecture allows for the use off domain- or = app-flow-specific IDs. These seem like a new potential vector for = tracking, and one that not every QoS architecture requires. > As far as I understood from below, you were happy with the change to = "is not expected=E2=80=9D. =E2=80=9CCombined with the above removals=E2=80=9D (about flow IDs and = OAM) is what I said. Either the architecture allows for these things, in = which case one might expect them, or it doesn=E2=80=99t. >=20 > Combined that with this discussion on the related text: > = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/-L_wsGPMqNEOtPMgsGYaJ30nFXk = = >=20 > We came to the current text: > DetNet provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, is not > expected to directly raise any new privacy considerations, the > generic considerations for such mechanisms apply. In particular, > such markings allow for an attacker to correlate flows or to select > particular types of flow for more detailed inspection. >=20 >=20 > Flow ID and associated QoS is not a new concept introduced by DetNet; = therefore, does not expected to raise new concerns. >=20 > What specific further changes do you suggest to this text? Given your exchange with Benjamin and the email today from Stewart, I = would suggest: DetNet provides a Quality of Service (QoS) mechanism, and the generic considerations for such mechanisms apply. In particular, such = markings allow for an attacker to correlate flows or to select particular = types of flow for more detailed inspection. My point is that the architecture does not actually forbid the = possibility of adding additional information into DetNet packets that = could be used as vectors for tracking/correlation. This change would = also address my concern about the OAM piece, but if you or the WG want = to pursue further edits regarding OAM given Greg=E2=80=99s mail I=E2=80=99= m happy to review. Best, Alissa >=20 >>=20 >> This edit also doesn=E2=80=99t seem to cover the potential for = additional privacy exposure implied by the discussion of OAM in Section = 4.1.1: > Thank you for making clear that this is the text you mean under "novel = flow IDs and OAM tags" below. It was not clear to me because the = architecture document does not contain either new / novel Flow ID / = OAM tag. >=20 >>=20 >> "OAM can involve specific tagging added in the packets for tracing = implementation or >> network configuration errors; traceability enables to find whether = a >> packet is a replica, which DetNet relay node performed the >> replication, and which segment was intended for the replica. =20 >=20 > This text is there since: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-finn-detnet-architecture-05 = . >=20 >> Active >> and hybrid OAM methods require additional bandwidth to perform = fault >> management and performance monitoring of the DetNet domain. OAM = may, >> for instance, generate special test probes or add OAM information >> into the data packet.=E2=80=9D > This was added based on = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg01577.html = . >=20 > This paragraph reads to me as pretty generic text on OAM.=20 >=20 > What specific cahnge would you like to see made to this text? >=20 > Should we, e.g., update the first sentence of the paragraph to: > OAM can support tracing implementation or > network configuration errors. Traceability enables to find whether = a > packet is a replica, which DetNet relay node performed the > replication, and which segment was intended for the replica. >=20 > ? >=20 > Regards, > J=C3=A1nos >=20 >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Alissa >>=20 >>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I'm not sure what "references to new flow IDs and OAM tags should = be removed"? >>>>=20 >>>> Could you point to the text that should be changed? >>>>=20 >>>> Thank you! >>>> Janos >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On 2/20/2019 4:39 PM, Lou Berger wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 2/20/2019 10:25 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On Feb 20, 2019, at 7:17 AM, Lou Berger > wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Hi Alissa, >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Thanks for the comments - see below. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On 2/20/2019 9:54 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: >>>>>>>> Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for >>>>>>>> draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-11: Discuss >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply = to all >>>>>>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to = cut this >>>>>>>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html = >>>>>>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found = here: >>>>>>>> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture/ = >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> DISCUSS: >>>>>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> =3D Section 6 =3D >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> "DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, = does not >>>>>>>> directly raise any new privacy considerations." >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> This seems like a false statement given the possibility that = DetNet may require >>>>>>>> novel flow IDs and OAM tags that create additional = identification and >>>>>>>> correlation risk beyond existing fields used to support QoS = today. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Based on the other work in the WG, I think "is not expected" is = more accurate than "does not". This is based on the WG solutions for the = DetNet data plane using existing IP (v4 or 6) headers or MPLS labels for = flow identification. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> If that is the case then the references to new flow IDs and OAM = tags should be removed from the architecture. >>>>> sounds reasonable. Can you point to the specific offending text? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Thanks, >>>>>=20 >>>>> Lou >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Would changing to "is not expected" address your concern? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Combined with the above removals, that would work for me. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Alissa >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Lou >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> detnet mailing list >>>>>> detnet@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet = >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_79E707F8-4EB5-4C3D-BDB5-507DFFF6DACA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = J=C3=A1nos,

On Apr 15, 2019, at 5:08 PM, J=C3=A1nos = Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com> wrote:

=20 =20
Hi Alissa,

Please see in-line.

On 4/12/2019 7:08 PM, Alissa Cooper wrote:
Hi J=C3=A1nos,


On Mar 25, 2019, at 12:16 PM, J=C3=A1nos = Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi = Alissa,

We believe that we have addressed your comments in the most recent revision: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-arc= hitecture-12. (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/utVL= 9ZVGcOeGtRIASRFx5WT_ErM)

Please let us know what else you would like to see done before you clear your DISCUSS.

I/we would be happy to meet with you this week if there is anything you would like to discuss.

Regards,
Janos


On 2/26/2019 2:20 PM, = J=C3=A1nos Farkas wrote:
= Hi Alissa,

Thank you for your review!

We can replace
"DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does not
   directly raise any new privacy = considerations."
with
"DetNet provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, is not expected to
   directly raise any new privacy = considerations.=E2=80=9D

I don=E2=80=99t = understand why this is not expected. =46rom what I can tell, the architecture allows for the use off domain- or app-flow-specific IDs. These seem like a new potential vector for tracking, and one that not every QoS architecture requires.
As far as I understood from below, you were happy with the change to "is not expected=E2=80=9D.

=E2=80=9CCombined with the above removals=E2=80=9D = (about flow IDs and OAM) is what I said. Either the architecture allows = for these things, in which case one might expect them, or it = doesn=E2=80=99t.


Combined that with this discussion on the related text:
= https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/-L_wsGPMqNEOtPMgsGYaJ= 30nFXk

We came to the current text:
   DetNet provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as = such, is not
   expected to directly raise any new privacy = considerations, the
   generic considerations for such mechanisms apply.  = In particular,
   such markings allow for an attacker to correlate flows = or to select
   particular types of flow for more detailed = inspection.


Flow ID and associated QoS is not a new concept introduced by DetNet; therefore, does not expected to raise new concerns.

What specific further changes do you suggest to this text?

Given = your exchange with Benjamin and the email today from Stewart, I would = suggest:

DetNet provides a = Quality of Service (QoS) mechanism, and the generic
  =  considerations for such mechanisms apply.  In particular, = such markings
   allow for an attacker to correlate = flows or to select particular types
   of flow for = more detailed inspection.

My point = is that the architecture does not actually forbid the possibility of = adding additional information into DetNet packets that could be used as = vectors for tracking/correlation. This change would also address my = concern about the OAM piece, but if you or the WG want to pursue further = edits regarding OAM given Greg=E2=80=99s mail I=E2=80=99m happy to = review.

Best,
Alissa



This edit also = doesn=E2=80=99t seem to cover the potential for additional privacy exposure implied by the discussion of OAM in Section = 4.1.1:
Thank you for making clear that this is the text you mean under "novel flow IDs and OAM tags" below. It was not clear to me because the architecture document does not contain either new / = novel   Flow ID / OAM tag.


"OAM can = involve specific tagging added in the packets for = tracing implementation or
   network =
configuration errors; traceability enables to find whether a
   packet is a replica, which DetNet relay node performed the
   replication, and which segment was intended for the replica.  =

This text is there since: htt= ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-finn-detnet-architecture-05.

Active
   and hybrid OAM methods require additional bandwidth to perform fault
   management and performance monitoring of the DetNet domain.  OAM may,
   for instance, generate special test probes or add OAM information
   into the data packet.=E2=80=9D
This was added based on https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg01577.html.<= br class=3D"">
This paragraph reads to me as pretty generic text on OAM.

What specific cahnge would you like to see made to this text?

Should we, e.g., update the first sentence of the paragraph to:
   OAM can support tracing implementation or
   network configuration errors. Traceability enables to = find whether a
   packet is a replica, which DetNet relay node performed = the
   replication, and which segment was intended for the = replica.

?

Regards,
J=C3=A1nos





Thanks,
Alissa

=
I'm not sure what "references to new flow IDs and OAM tags should be removed"?

Could you point to the text that should be changed?

Thank you!
Janos


On 2/20/2019 4:39 PM, = Lou Berger wrote:


On 2/20/2019 10:25 = AM, Alissa Cooper wrote:
=

On Feb 20, 2019, at 7:17 AM, = Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> wrote:

Hi Alissa,

Thanks for the comments - see below.

On 2/20/2019 9:54 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote:
Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-11: = Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
= introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crite= ria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
= https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detne= t-architecture/



= ----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
= ----------------------------------------------------------------------

=3D Section 6 =3D

"DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does not
   directly raise any new = privacy considerations."

This seems like a false statement given the possibility that DetNet may require
novel flow IDs and OAM tags that create additional identification and
= correlation risk beyond existing fields used to support QoS today.

Based on the other work in the WG, I think "is not expected" is more accurate than "does not". This is based on the WG solutions for the DetNet data plane using existing IP (v4 or 6) headers or MPLS labels for flow identification.

If that is the case then the references to new flow IDs and OAM tags should be removed from the architecture.

sounds reasonable.  = Can you point to the specific offending text?

Thanks,

Lou



Would changing to "is not expected" address your = concern?

Combined with the above = removals, that would work for me.

Thanks,
Alissa


Thanks,

Lou


= 
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(version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 18 Apr 2019 12:52:17 -0400 X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd51.lss.emc.com x3IGqEEb006306 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=emc.com; s=jan2013; t=1555606337; bh=wtluJcU/Ixamqin954h/San6Uc0=; h=From:To:CC:Subject:Date:Message-ID:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=Ip/KykYKr5wchpflrlC6S7MsxKMLr09bdtX+QyRyyIJIkVOdr9EPv71lK8YCtP79U 7qPV0KDBV9DyvPAarj9KQciTor2WNW7CR+ZjSEeVz/ZwZPrqpMsl/Vb6Ext5SaME0J gS8jrWci28d8kXMRlulXwkMCEUByq64ronwSTLMo= X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd51.lss.emc.com x3IGqEEb006306 Received: from mailusrhubprd04.lss.emc.com (mailusrhubprd04.lss.emc.com [10.253.24.22]) by maildlpprd55.lss.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Thu, 18 Apr 2019 12:52:04 -0400 Received: from MXHUB311.corp.emc.com (MXHUB311.corp.emc.com [10.146.3.89]) by mailusrhubprd04.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id x3IGq3E6011599 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Apr 2019 12:52:04 -0400 Received: from MX307CL04.corp.emc.com ([fe80::849f:5da2:11b:4385]) by MXHUB311.corp.emc.com ([10.146.3.89]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Thu, 18 Apr 2019 12:52:02 -0400 From: "Black, David" To: Alissa Cooper , =?utf-8?B?SsOhbm9zIEZhcmthcw==?= CC: "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , Lou Berger , IESG , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHUySxoxYKdPZ/cGkiiIpVb+83tzKXpIDAAgAACRICAT+/lM4AFPPsAgAKlrICAAYWQ0A== Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 16:52:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: <155067447797.31337.768983002923056061.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <40b28261-5f04-7fcd-4f4f-ce243f32a808@labn.net> <1AA376D8-DE94-4FAF-B9D2-CC4E155CEC85@cooperw.in> <0f7e2d9a-bf74-b5ea-6898-29ad2129a0c0@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: 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scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1904180108 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 16:52:37 -0000 --_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D2432779493630516479MX307CL04corpem_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 KzEgb24gQWxpc3Nh4oCZcyBuZWFyLWZpbmFsIGNvbW1lbnQ6DQoNCj4gW+KApl0gdGhlIGFyY2hp dGVjdHVyZSBkb2VzIG5vdCBhY3R1YWxseSBmb3JiaWQgdGhlIHBvc3NpYmlsaXR5IG9mIGFkZGlu ZyBhZGRpdGlvbmFsIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGludG8gRGV0TmV0IHBhY2tldHMgdGhhdCBjb3VsZCBi ZSB1c2VkIGFzIHZlY3RvcnMgZm9yIHRyYWNraW5nL2NvcnJlbGF0aW9uLg0KDQpNeSB1bmRlcnN0 YW5kaW5nIGlzIHRoYXQgdGhpcyBpcyBhbGxvd2VkIGJ5IHRoZSBEZXROZXQgYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJl 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Cooper CC: "Black, David" , "draft-ietf-detnet-architecture@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , Lou Berger , IESG , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" References: <155067447797.31337.768983002923056061.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <40b28261-5f04-7fcd-4f4f-ce243f32a808@labn.net> <1AA376D8-DE94-4FAF-B9D2-CC4E155CEC85@cooperw.in> <0f7e2d9a-bf74-b5ea-6898-29ad2129a0c0@ericsson.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a1nos_Farkas?= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 20:25:56 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1EED15130D134E7623C83BA8" Content-Language: en-US X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprBIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7sa7JqgMxBm9PKFlMP/OX0eLjrMUs Ftf6f7BY/P40m8Xiw7eZLBYz/kxktuhofsviwO7x5clLJo9JM2cweyxZ8pPJ48OmZrYAligu m5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujPcv/jAWrGpmrvg27StrA+PnU4xdjJwcEgImEj9v3WLrYuTiEBI4yigx e84lFgjnG6PEo3PtzCBVQgJHGCWW3vMHsYUFCiT6LywHi4sIqEpcPfYDrJtZYDKTxNfGY1Dd 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text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Alissa, Thank you for the clarification. I agree with the change you are suggesting. I propose to make the change. At this stage, I suggest to avoid any further change that is not necessary. Thank you! Janos On 4/18/2019 6:52 PM, Black, David wrote: > > +1 on Alissa’s near-final comment: > > > […] the architecture does not actually forbid the possibility of > adding additional information into DetNet packets that could be used > as vectors for tracking/correlation. > > My understanding is that this is allowed by the DetNet architecture > even though none of the data plane designs have done so to date.  In > particular, I’ve seen some prior discussion of using DSCPs for to > identify DetNet traffic, even though that approach is not currently > being pursued. > > Thanks, --David > > *From:* detnet *On Behalf Of *Alissa Cooper > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 17, 2019 9:34 AM > *To:* János Farkas > *Cc:* draft-ietf-detnet-architecture@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; Lou > Berger; IESG; detnet-chairs@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on > draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > Hi János, > > > > On Apr 15, 2019, at 5:08 PM, János Farkas > > wrote: > > Hi Alissa, > > Please see in-line. > > On 4/12/2019 7:08 PM, Alissa Cooper wrote: > > Hi János, > > > > On Mar 25, 2019, at 12:16 PM, János Farkas > > wrote: > > Hi Alissa, > > We believe that we have addressed your comments in the > most recent revision: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-12. > (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/utVL9ZVGcOeGtRIASRFx5WT_ErM) > > Please let us know what else you would like to see done > before you clear your DISCUSS. > > I/we would be happy to meet with you this week if there is > anything you would like to discuss. > > Regards, > Janos > > On 2/26/2019 2:20 PM, János Farkas wrote: > > Hi Alissa, > > Thank you for your review! > > We can replace > "DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as > such, does not >    directly raise any new privacy considerations." > with > "DetNet provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as > such, is not expected to >    directly raise any new privacy considerations.” > > I don’t understand why this is not expected. From what I can > tell, the architecture allows for the use off domain- or > app-flow-specific IDs. These seem like a new potential vector > for tracking, and one that not every QoS architecture requires. > > As far as I understood from below, you were happy with the change > to "is not expected”. > > “Combined with the above removals” (about flow IDs and OAM) is what I > said. Either the architecture allows for these things, in which case > one might expect them, or it doesn’t. > > > > > Combined that with this discussion on the related text: > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/-L_wsGPMqNEOtPMgsGYaJ30nFXk > > We came to the current text: >    DetNet provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, is not >    expected to directly raise any new privacy considerations, the >    generic considerations for such mechanisms apply.  In particular, >    such markings allow for an attacker to correlate flows or to select >    particular types of flow for more detailed inspection. > > > Flow ID and associated QoS is not a new concept introduced by > DetNet; therefore, does not expected to raise new concerns. > > What specific further changes do you suggest to this text? > > Given your exchange with Benjamin and the email today from Stewart, I > would suggest: > > DetNet provides a Quality of Service (QoS) mechanism, and the generic > >    considerations for such mechanisms apply.  In particular, such markings > >    allow for an attacker to correlate flows or to select particular types > >    of flow for more detailed inspection. > > My point is that the architecture does not actually forbid the > possibility of adding additional information into DetNet packets that > could be used as vectors for tracking/correlation. This change would > also address my concern about the OAM piece, but if you or the WG want > to pursue further edits regarding OAM given Greg’s mail I’m happy to > review. > > Best, > > Alissa > > > > > > This edit also doesn’t seem to cover the potential for > additional privacy exposure implied by the discussion of OAM > in Section 4.1.1: > > Thank you for making clear that this is the text you mean under > "novel flow IDs and OAM tags" below. It was not clear to me > because the architecture document does not contain either new / > novel   Flow ID / OAM tag. > > > "OAM can involve specific tagging added in the packets for > tracing implementation or > >    network configuration errors; traceability enables to find > whether a > >    packet is a replica, which DetNet relay node performed the > >    replication, and which segment was intended for the replica. > > > This text is there since: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-finn-detnet-architecture-05. > > > Active > >    and hybrid OAM methods require additional bandwidth to > perform fault > >    management and performance monitoring of the DetNet > domain.  OAM may, > >    for instance, generate special test probes or add OAM > information > >    into the data packet.” > > This was added based on > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg01577.html. > > This paragraph reads to me as pretty generic text on OAM. > > What specific cahnge would you like to see made to this text? > > Should we, e.g., update the first sentence of the paragraph to: >    OAM can support tracing implementation or >    network configuration errors. Traceability enables to find > whether a >    packet is a replica, which DetNet relay node performed the >    replication, and which segment was intended for the replica. > > ? > > Regards, > János > > > > > Thanks, > > Alissa > > > > > I'm not sure what "references to new flow IDs and OAM > tags should be removed"? > > Could you point to the text that should be changed? > > Thank you! > Janos > > On 2/20/2019 4:39 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > > On 2/20/2019 10:25 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: > > > > On Feb 20, 2019, at 7:17 AM, Lou Berger > > wrote: > > Hi Alissa, > > Thanks for the comments - see below. > > On 2/20/2019 9:54 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: > > Alissa Cooper has entered the > following ballot position for > draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-11: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the > subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and > CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG > DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot > positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > = Section 6 = > > "DetNet is provides a Quality of > Service (QoS), and as such, does not >    directly raise any new privacy > considerations." > > This seems like a false statement > given the possibility that DetNet may > require > novel flow IDs and OAM tags that > create additional identification and > correlation risk beyond existing > fields used to support QoS today. > > > Based on the other work in the WG, I think > "is not expected" is more accurate than > "does not". This is based on the WG > solutions for the DetNet data plane using > existing IP (v4 or 6) headers or MPLS > labels for flow identification. > > If that is the case then the references to new > flow IDs and OAM tags should be removed from > the architecture. > > sounds reasonable.  Can you point to the specific > offending text? > > Thanks, > > Lou > > > > > Would changing to "is not expected" > address your concern? > > Combined with the above removals, that would > work for me. > > Thanks, > > Alissa > > > > > Thanks, > > Lou > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --------------1EED15130D134E7623C83BA8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Alissa,

Thank you for the clarification.
I agree with the change you are suggesting.
I propose to make the change.

At this stage, I suggest to avoid any further change that is not necessary.

Thank you!
Janos


On 4/18/2019 6:52 PM, Black, David wrote:

+1 on Alissa’s near-final comment:

 

> […] the architecture does not actually forbid the possibility of adding additional information into DetNet packets that could be used as vectors for tracking/correlation.

 

My understanding is that this is allowed by the DetNet architecture even though none of the data plane designs have done so to date.  In particular, I’ve seen some prior discussion of using DSCPs for to identify DetNet traffic, even though that approach is not currently being pursued.

 

Thanks, --David

 

From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Alissa Cooper
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 9:34 AM
To: János Farkas
Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-architecture@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; Lou Berger; IESG; detnet-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

 

[EXTERNAL EMAIL]

Hi János,



On Apr 15, 2019, at 5:08 PM, János Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com> wrote:

 

Hi Alissa,

Please see in-line.

On 4/12/2019 7:08 PM, Alissa Cooper wrote:

Hi János,

 



On Mar 25, 2019, at 12:16 PM, János Farkas <janos.farkas@ericsson.com> wrote:

 

Hi Alissa,

We believe that we have addressed your comments in the most recent revision: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-12. (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/utVL9ZVGcOeGtRIASRFx5WT_ErM)

Please let us know what else you would like to see done before you clear your DISCUSS.

I/we would be happy to meet with you this week if there is anything you would like to discuss.

Regards,
Janos

On 2/26/2019 2:20 PM, János Farkas wrote:

Hi Alissa,

Thank you for your review!

We can replace
"DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does not
   directly raise any new privacy considerations."
with
"DetNet provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, is not expected to
   directly raise any new privacy considerations.”

 

I don’t understand why this is not expected. From what I can tell, the architecture allows for the use off domain- or app-flow-specific IDs. These seem like a new potential vector for tracking, and one that not every QoS architecture requires.

As far as I understood from below, you were happy with the change to "is not expected”.

 

“Combined with the above removals” (about flow IDs and OAM) is what I said. Either the architecture allows for these things, in which case one might expect them, or it doesn’t.




Combined that with this discussion on the related text:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/-L_wsGPMqNEOtPMgsGYaJ30nFXk

We came to the current text:
   DetNet provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, is not
   expected to directly raise any new privacy considerations, the
   generic considerations for such mechanisms apply.  In particular,
   such markings allow for an attacker to correlate flows or to select
   particular types of flow for more detailed inspection.


Flow ID and associated QoS is not a new concept introduced by DetNet; therefore, does not expected to raise new concerns.

What specific further changes do you suggest to this text?

 

Given your exchange with Benjamin and the email today from Stewart, I would suggest:

 

DetNet provides a Quality of Service (QoS) mechanism, and the generic

   considerations for such mechanisms apply.  In particular, such markings

   allow for an attacker to correlate flows or to select particular types

   of flow for more detailed inspection.

 

My point is that the architecture does not actually forbid the possibility of adding additional information into DetNet packets that could be used as vectors for tracking/correlation. This change would also address my concern about the OAM piece, but if you or the WG want to pursue further edits regarding OAM given Greg’s mail I’m happy to review.

 

Best,

Alissa





 

This edit also doesn’t seem to cover the potential for additional privacy exposure implied by the discussion of OAM in Section 4.1.1:

Thank you for making clear that this is the text you mean under "novel flow IDs and OAM tags" below. It was not clear to me because the architecture document does not contain either new / novel   Flow ID / OAM tag.


 

"OAM can involve specific tagging added in the packets for tracing implementation or

   network configuration errors; traceability enables to find whether a
   packet is a replica, which DetNet relay node performed the
   replication, and which segment was intended for the replica. 


This text is there since: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-finn-detnet-architecture-05.


Active
   and hybrid OAM methods require additional bandwidth to perform fault
   management and performance monitoring of the DetNet domain.  OAM may,
   for instance, generate special test probes or add OAM information
   into the data packet.”

This was added based on https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/detnet/current/msg01577.html.

This paragraph reads to me as pretty generic text on OAM.

What specific cahnge would you like to see made to this text?

Should we, e.g., update the first sentence of the paragraph to:
   OAM can support tracing implementation or
   network configuration errors. Traceability enables to find whether a
   packet is a replica, which DetNet relay node performed the
   replication, and which segment was intended for the replica.

?

Regards,
János




 
Thanks,
Alissa
 




I'm not sure what "references to new flow IDs and OAM tags should be removed"?

Could you point to the text that should be changed?

Thank you!
Janos

On 2/20/2019 4:39 PM, Lou Berger wrote:

 

On 2/20/2019 10:25 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote:

 



On Feb 20, 2019, at 7:17 AM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> wrote:

 

Hi Alissa,

Thanks for the comments - see below.

On 2/20/2019 9:54 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote:

Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-11: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

= Section 6 =

"DetNet is provides a Quality of Service (QoS), and as such, does not
   directly raise any new privacy considerations."

This seems like a false statement given the possibility that DetNet may require
novel flow IDs and OAM tags that create additional identification and
correlation risk beyond existing fields used to support QoS today.


Based on the other work in the WG, I think "is not expected" is more accurate than "does not". This is based on the WG solutions for the DetNet data plane using existing IP (v4 or 6) headers or MPLS labels for flow identification.

 

If that is the case then the references to new flow IDs and OAM tags should be removed from the architecture.

sounds reasonable.  Can you point to the specific offending text?

Thanks,

Lou




Would changing to "is not expected" address your concern?

 

Combined with the above removals, that would work for me.

 

Thanks,

Alissa




Thanks,

Lou




_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

 

 

 

 

 


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