From nobody Mon Jun 1 06:16:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08AB43A1063; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 06:16:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lh3e5dBQ5w9l; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 06:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A3883A1053; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 06:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml720-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 834D5C49B965CB57AEE1; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 14:16:08 +0100 (IST) Received: from dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.100) by lhreml720-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.71) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 14:16:07 +0100 Received: from dggeme702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.98) by dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.100) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:16:05 +0800 Received: from dggeme702-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.9.48.229]) by dggeme702-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.9.48.229]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 21:16:04 +0800 From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" To: 'DetNet WG' CC: 'DetNet Chairs' , Don Fedyk , "dbduscjf@etri.re.kr" , Jeong-dong Ryoo Thread-Topic: YANG Model Call Meeting Minutes for 20200601 Thread-Index: AdY4FUJGqzmjQLBOT6uCVFbtOXQEHQ== Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 13:16:04 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.48.31.160] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_c97527a43a494074adeaafaeb7228972huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] YANG Model Call Meeting Minutes for 20200601 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 13:16:20 -0000 --_000_c97527a43a494074adeaafaeb7228972huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi WG, At this stage, we have two yang models and we are trying to summarize the d= ifferences between them. We will list some principle to help the WG to make= a choice or do the combination. Here is the conclusion for today's discussion: 1. How to organize the model: multiple small boxes or single big box? = We could have multiple small boxes which could be combined flexibly for dif= ferent cases or we could have one big box which could cover all the cases a= t once. (This is still under discussion) 2. Make sure that there is no duplicated information which will be con= figured in different places in the YANG model 3. Make sure that all the cases in the data plane document are covered= and no new case is created. What is the plan for the next call meeting? Take one example as baseline: ? Application: IP flow ? DetNet Domain: MPLS service sub-layer and MPLS forwarding sub-layer ? Topology: Ingress node/Egress node/replication relay node/elimination r= elay node/transit node should be included Best Regards Xuesong --_000_c97527a43a494074adeaafaeb7228972huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi W= G,

 

At t= his stage, we have two yang models and we are trying to summarize the diffe= rences between them. We will list some principle to help the WG to make a c= hoice or do the combination.

Here= is the conclusion for today’s discussion:

1= .   &= nbsp;  How to organize the mod= el: multiple small boxes or single big box? We could have multiple small bo= xes which could be combined flexibly for different cases or we could have o= ne big box which could cover all the cases at once. (This is still under discussion)

2= .   &= nbsp;  Make sure that there is= no duplicated information which will be configured in different places in = the YANG model

3= .   &= nbsp;  Make sure that all the = cases in the data plane document are covered and no new case is created.

What= is the plan for the next call meeting? Take one example as baseline:<= /o:p>

<= span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">Ÿ   Application: IP flow

<= span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">Ÿ   DetNet Domain: MPLS ser= vice sub-layer and MPLS forwarding sub-layer

<= span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">Ÿ   Topology: Ingress node/= Egress node/replication relay node/elimination relay node/transit node shou= ld be included

 

Best= Regards

Xues= ong

 

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X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] YANG Model Call Meeting Minutes for 20200601 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2020 00:22:53 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01D6391B.951ACC70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have pushed a configuration example for the detnet-model I propose. I will working on putting this in xml format. And providing another configuration example for egress and a relay node. https://github.com/detnet-wg/draft-ietf-detnet-yang/issues/13 This uses yanglint. Cheers Don From: detnet On Behalf Of Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) Sent: Monday, June 1, 2020 9:16 AM To: 'DetNet WG' Cc: Don Fedyk ; Jeong-dong Ryoo ; dbduscjf@etri.re.kr; 'DetNet Chairs' Subject: [Detnet] YANG Model Call Meeting Minutes for 20200601 Hi WG, At this stage, we have two yang models and we are trying to summarize the differences between them. We will list some principle to help the WG to make a choice or do the combination. Here is the conclusion for today's discussion: 1. How to organize the model: multiple small boxes or single big box? We could have multiple small boxes which could be combined flexibly for different cases or we could have one big box which could cover all the cases at once. (This is still under discussion) 2. Make sure that there is no duplicated information which will be configured in different places in the YANG model 3. Make sure that all the cases in the data plane document are covered and no new case is created. What is the plan for the next call meeting? Take one example as baseline: * Application: IP flow * DetNet Domain: MPLS service sub-layer and MPLS forwarding sub-layer * Topology: Ingress node/Egress node/replication relay node/elimination relay node/transit node should be included Best Regards Xuesong ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01D6391B.951ACC70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have pushed a = configuration example for the detnet-model I propose.  I will = working on putting this in xml format.  And providing another = configuration example for egress and a relay node.  =

 

ht= tps://github.com/detnet-wg/draft-ietf-detnet-yang/issues/13

 

This = uses yanglint.

 

Cheers
Don

 

 

 

From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> On = Behalf Of Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)
Sent: Monday, June 1, = 2020 9:16 AM
To: 'DetNet WG' = <detnet@ietf.org>
Cc: Don Fedyk <dfedyk@labn.net>; = Jeong-dong Ryoo <ryoo@etri.re.kr>; dbduscjf@etri.re.kr; 'DetNet = Chairs' <detnet-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: [Detnet] YANG = Model Call Meeting Minutes for = 20200601

 

Hi WG,

 

At this stage, we have two yang = models and we are trying to summarize the differences between them. We = will list some principle to help the WG to make a choice or do the = combination.

Here is the conclusion for = today’s discussion:

1.      = How to organize the model: multiple = small boxes or single big box? We could have multiple small boxes which = could be combined flexibly for different cases or we could have one big = box which could cover all the cases at once. (This is still under = discussion)

2.      = Make sure that there is no = duplicated information which will be configured in different places in = the YANG model

3.      = Make sure that all the cases in the = data plane document are covered and no new case is = created.

What is the plan for the next call = meeting? Take one example as baseline:

Ÿ   Application: IP = flow

Ÿ   DetNet Domain: MPLS service = sub-layer and MPLS forwarding sub-layer

Ÿ   Topology: Ingress node/Egress = node/replication relay node/elimination relay node/transit node should = be included

 

Best = Regards

Xuesong

 

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"ryoo@etri.re.kr" , DetNet WG Cc: 'DetNet Chairs' , "draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.authors@ietf.org" References: From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <62b15a1d-dbb8-da37-f0d5-f84f74f1e8a2@labn.net> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 07:14:58 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------142779F7268FD7A724AB6F8F" Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1jgRMJ-002GTr-6B X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:12511 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 3 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Support of FREOF in DetNet MPLS relay nodes as shown in Figure 1 of RFC 8655 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2020 11:15:03 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------142779F7268FD7A724AB6F8F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, I have a question, see below On 6/3/2020 6:52 AM, Balázs Varga A wrote: > > I have another issue related to our current discussion. Current MPLS > data plane document seems to assume that only one S-Label value is > used for all duplicated packets during replication process. > Considering the fact that S-Labels are local to each node and > advertised to its upstream nodes, an edge or relay node that performs > the packet replication may push different S-Label values for different > outgoing duplicates. In Figure 1 of RFC 8655 (DetNet Architecture), > when the right-most node and two middle relay nodes assign different > S-Label values, the left-most node, which generates duplicates towards > two relay nodes, would have to push different S-Labels for different > relay nodes. > > In order to make a clarification on this issue, I would like to > propose to add following text after the second sentence of the third > paragraph in Section 4.2.3.1: > > The S-Label value in each copy of the outgoing packet > > may be different from each other when duplicated packets > > are forwarded to different relay nodes. > > This section is dealing with the F-labels. S-labels are > covered in “4.2.2. S-Labelsâ€. > > Last sentence of the first paragraph covers your text explicitly: > “Relay nodes MAY swap > > S-Label values when processing an app-flow.†Second sentence of > 4.2.3.1 also refers to > > the possible swap operation on S-Labels. > > [JR] The issue I raised above cannot be resolved by swap operation. We > need to cover the situation that S-Label value of one outgoing copy > can be different from that of the other outgoing copy if those two > copies are forwarded to two different relay nodes. > > That is an internal implementation question, what we do not > intend to define. > You may implement replication before S-label swap. Order of functions > in a given > implementation is out-of-scope for the draft. > I don't see support in the document for having a single service send different S-Labels, for the *same* service, on two different member flows.  Nor do I see support for a single service being split into two services in the current document without an A-Label (and pop operation).  I'm not saying it's not possible, but rather that neither are part of the current definition.  Of course, I may have missed something in the text. Jeong-dong (or anyone else),     Can you point to where you see these S-Label operations being allowed for in the current document? Thank you, Lou (as contributor) --------------142779F7268FD7A724AB6F8F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi,

I have a question, see below

On 6/3/2020 6:52 AM, Balázs Varga A wrote:

I have another issue related to our current discussion. Current MPLS data plane document seems to assume that only one S-Label value is used for all duplicated packets during replication process. Considering the fact that S-Labels are local to each node and advertised to its upstream nodes, an edge or relay node that performs the packet replication may push different S-Label values for different outgoing duplicates. In Figure 1 of RFC 8655 (DetNet Architecture), when the right-most node and two middle relay nodes assign different S-Label values, the left-most node, which generates duplicates towards two relay nodes, would have to push different S-Labels for different relay nodes. 

In order to make a clarification on this issue, I would like to propose to add following text after the second sentence of the third paragraph in Section 4.2.3.1:

The S-Label value in each copy of the outgoing packet 

may be different from each other when duplicated packets 

are forwarded to different relay nodes.

<Balazs> This section is dealing with the F-labels. S-labels are covered in “4.2.2. S-Labelsâ€. 

Last sentence of the first paragraph covers your text explicitly: “Relay nodes MAY swap 

S-Label values when processing an app-flow.†Second sentence of 4.2.3.1 also refers to

the possible swap operation on S-Labels.

[JR] The issue I raised above cannot be resolved by swap operation. We need to cover the situation that S-Label value of one outgoing copy can be different from that of the other outgoing copy if those two copies are forwarded to two different relay nodes.  

 <Balazs> That is an internal implementation question, what we do not intend to define.
You may implement replication before S-label swap. Order of functions in a given
implementation is out-of-scope for the draft.

I don't see support in the document for having a single service send different S-Labels, for the *same* service, on two different member flows.  Nor do I see support for a single service being split into two services in the current document without an A-Label (and pop operation).  I'm not saying it's not possible, but rather that neither are part of the current definition.  Of course, I may have missed something in the text. 

Jeong-dong (or anyone else),

    Can you point to where you see these S-Label operations being allowed for in the current document?

Thank you,

Lou

(as contributor)


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X-Dsn-Request: true Importance: Normal X-Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 13:42:09 +0900 (KST) Sender: ryoo@etri.re.kr References: <62b15a1d-dbb8-da37-f0d5-f84f74f1e8a2@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <62b15a1d-dbb8-da37-f0d5-f84f74f1e8a2@labn.net> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Support of FREOF in DetNet MPLS relay nodes as shown in Figure 1 of RFC 8655 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 04:42:25 -0000 ------=_Part_63091_1642747340.1591245728205 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 TG91LCZuYnNwOwoKTXkgYW5zd2VyIHRvIHlvdXIgcXVlc3Rpb246CkkgZG9uJ3Qgc2VlLCBlaXRo ZXIuCgpJZiBubyBuZXcgdGV4dCBvbiBkaWZmZXJlbnQgUy1MYWJlbHMgaXMgYWRkZWQsIG15IGNv 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en-us X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 173.48.105.206 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1jgiV4-003b3m-VO X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-173-48-105-206.bstnma.fios.verizon.net (FedykLabn) [173.48.105.206]:62181 X-Source-Auth: dfedyk@labn.net X-Email-Count: 4 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] YANG Model Call Meeting Minutes for 20200601 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2020 05:33:18 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01D63A10.1BC129A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have pushed the xml draft content: https://github.com/detnet-wg/draft-ietf-detnet-yang/issues/13 Included: * Alternative YANG model * Alternative yang tree (wrapping lines @72 chars) * Two configuration examples in xml both validated with yanglint. The exercise of configuring the model has cause me to change the model a bit due to bugs/inconsistencies. I find the json config the easiest to read, but the xml format easier to code: $ yanglint > load ietf-detnet-configa > data -t config -f json test-detnet-edge-ingress.xml { "ietf-detnet-configa:detnet": { "applications": { "app-list": [ { "name": "app1", "app-flow-bidir-congruent": false } ], "app-ingress": [ { "name": "port1", "ip": { "source": "1.1.1.1/32", "destination": "2.2.2.2/32", "protocol-next": 6, "dscp": [ 40 ] } } ] }, "services": { "service-list": [ { "name": "ssl1", "service-rank": 10, "outbound": { "forward-sublayer-output": [ "fsl1" ], "sequence_number_length": 0, "application-input": [ { "name": "app1", "mpls-service-label": 55555 } ], "traffic-requirements": { "min-bandwidth": "100000000", "max-latency": 10000000, "max-latency-variation": 2000000, "max-loss": 2, "max-consecutive-loss-tolerance": 5, "max-misordering": 0 }, "traffic-specification": { "interval": 5, "max-packets-per-interval": "10", "max-payload-size": 1500 } } } ] }, "fwd-sub-layer-output": [ { "name": "fsl1", "next-hop": { "next-hop": [ { "hop-index": 1, "mpls-label-stack": { "entry": [ { "id": 1, "label": 42, "traffic-class": 5 } ] } } ] } } ] } } Regards Don From: Don Fedyk Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 8:23 PM To: 'Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)' ; 'DetNet WG' Cc: 'Jeong-dong Ryoo' ; 'dbduscjf@etri.re.kr' ; 'DetNet Chairs' Subject: RE: [Detnet] YANG Model Call Meeting Minutes for 20200601 I have pushed a configuration example for the detnet-model I propose. I will working on putting this in xml format. And providing another configuration example for egress and a relay node. https://github.com/detnet-wg/draft-ietf-detnet-yang/issues/13 This uses yanglint. Cheers Don From: detnet > On Behalf Of Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) Sent: Monday, June 1, 2020 9:16 AM To: 'DetNet WG' > Cc: Don Fedyk >; Jeong-dong Ryoo >; dbduscjf@etri.re.kr ; 'DetNet Chairs' > Subject: [Detnet] YANG Model Call Meeting Minutes for 20200601 Hi WG, At this stage, we have two yang models and we are trying to summarize the differences between them. We will list some principle to help the WG to make a choice or do the combination. Here is the conclusion for today's discussion: 1. How to organize the model: multiple small boxes or single big box? We could have multiple small boxes which could be combined flexibly for different cases or we could have one big box which could cover all the cases at once. (This is still under discussion) 2. Make sure that there is no duplicated information which will be configured in different places in the YANG model 3. Make sure that all the cases in the data plane document are covered and no new case is created. What is the plan for the next call meeting? Take one example as baseline: * Application: IP flow * DetNet Domain: MPLS service sub-layer and MPLS forwarding sub-layer * Topology: Ingress node/Egress node/replication relay node/elimination relay node/transit node should be included Best Regards Xuesong ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01D63A10.1BC129A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have pushed = the  xml draft content: ht= tps://github.com/detnet-wg/draft-ietf-detnet-yang/issues/13

Included:

·        = Alternative YANG = model

·        = Alternative yang tree (wrapping lines @72 = chars)

·        = Two = configuration examples in xml both validated with = yanglint.

The exercise of configuring the model has = cause me to change the model a bit due to bugs/inconsistencies. =  

 

I find the json = config the easiest to read, but the xml format easier to code: =

$ = yanglint

> load = ietf-detnet-configa

> data  = -t config   -f json = test-detnet-edge-ingress.xml

{

  = "ietf-detnet-configa:detnet": {

    "applications": = {

      "app-list": = [

        = {

          = "name": "app1",

          = "app-flow-bidir-congruent": false

        = }

      ],

      "app-ingress": = [

        = {

          = "name": "port1",

          = "ip": {

          &nb= sp; "source": "1.1.1.1/32",

          &nb= sp; "destination": = "2.2.2.2/32",

          &nb= sp; "protocol-next": 6,

      =       "dscp": = [

          &nb= sp;   40

          &nb= sp; ]

          = }

        = }

      ]

    },

    "services": = {

      "service-list": = [

        = {

          = "name": "ssl1",

          = "service-rank": 10,

          = "outbound": {

          &nb= sp; "forward-sublayer-output": [

          &nb= sp;   "fsl1"

          &nb= sp; ],

          &nb= sp; "sequence_number_length": 0,

          &nb= sp; "application-input": [

          &nb= sp;   {

          &nb= sp;     "name": = "app1",

          &nb= sp;     "mpls-service-label": = 55555

           =    }

          &nb= sp; ],

          &nb= sp; "traffic-requirements": {

          &nb= sp;   "min-bandwidth": = "100000000",

          &nb= sp;   "max-latency": = 10000000,

          &nb= sp;   "max-latency-variation": = 2000000,

          &nb= sp;   "max-loss": 2,

          &nb= sp;   "max-consecutive-loss-tolerance": = 5,

          &nb= sp;   "max-misordering": 0

          &nb= sp; },

          &nb= sp; "traffic-specification": {

          &nb= sp;   "interval": 5,

          &nb= sp;   "max-packets-per-interval": = "10",

          &nb= sp;   "max-payload-size": = 1500

          &nb= sp; }

          = }

        = }

  =     ]

    },

    "fwd-sub-layer-output": = [

      {

        "name": = "fsl1",

        = "next-hop": {

          = "next-hop": [

          &nb= sp; {

          &nb= sp;   "hop-index": 1,

          &nb= sp;   "mpls-label-stack": {

          &nb= sp;     "entry": [

          &nb= sp;       {

          &nb= sp;         "id": = 1,

          &nb= sp;         "label": = 42,

          &nb= sp;         = "traffic-class": 5

          &nb= sp;       }

          &nb= sp;     ]

          &nb= sp;   }

          &nb= sp; }

          = ]

        = }

      }

    ]

  }

}

 

Regards

Don =

 

From: Don Fedyk <dfedyk@labn.net> =
Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 8:23 PM
To: = 'Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)' <gengxuesong@huawei.com>; 'DetNet WG' = <detnet@ietf.org>
Cc: 'Jeong-dong Ryoo' = <ryoo@etri.re.kr>; 'dbduscjf@etri.re.kr' = <dbduscjf@etri.re.kr>; 'DetNet Chairs' = <detnet-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Detnet] YANG = Model Call Meeting Minutes for = 20200601

 

I have pushed a = configuration example for the detnet-model I propose.  I will = working on putting this in xml format.  And providing another = configuration example for egress and a relay node.  =

 

ht= tps://github.com/detnet-wg/draft-ietf-detnet-yang/issues/13

 

This = uses yanglint.

 

Cheers
Don

 

 

 

From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> = On Behalf Of Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)
Sent: Monday, = June 1, 2020 9:16 AM
To: 'DetNet WG' <detnet@ietf.org>
Cc: = Don Fedyk <dfedyk@labn.net>; Jeong-dong Ryoo = <ryoo@etri.re.kr>; dbduscjf@etri.re.kr; 'DetNet = Chairs' <detnet-chairs@ietf.org>
= Subject: [Detnet] YANG Model Call Meeting Minutes for = 20200601

 

Hi WG,

 

At this stage, we have two yang = models and we are trying to summarize the differences between them. We = will list some principle to help the WG to make a choice or do the = combination.

Here is the conclusion for = today’s discussion:

1.      = How to organize the model: multiple = small boxes or single big box? We could have multiple small boxes which = could be combined flexibly for different cases or we could have one big = box which could cover all the cases at once. (This is still under = discussion)

2.      = Make sure that there is no = duplicated information which will be configured in different places in = the YANG model

3.      = Make sure that all the cases in the = data plane document are covered and no new case is = created.

What is the plan for the next call = meeting? Take one example as baseline:

Ÿ   Application: IP = flow

Ÿ   DetNet Domain: MPLS service = sub-layer and MPLS forwarding sub-layer

Ÿ   Topology: Ingress node/Egress = node/replication relay node/elimination relay node/transit node should = be included

 

Best = Regards

Xuesong

 

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Thu, 4 Jun 2020 12:33:26 +0000 From: Alexander Vainshtein To: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "spring@ietf.org" , "lsr@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" , "rtgwg@ietf.org" , "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" , "CCAMP@ietf.org" , "teas@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" , "lsr@ietf.org" , "pals@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "mpls@ietf.org" , "nvo3@ietf.org" CC: Ron Sdayoor , Rotem Cohen Thread-Topic: Change of email address Thread-Index: AdY6a+TLCHm6WE7zRQSbSvqx0WrAHA== Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2020 12:33:26 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [79.183.63.9] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 0462e468-617d-4428-fc4b-08d808837aaa x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM0PR03MB3905: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; x-forefront-prvs: 04244E0DC5 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: oqX1MOKb7TS+HaVmi3rcoRopuKRJJc0WRoEvfH7Iiu3CCgDefRgq+eHNhYYmgiHB8NSx9qR8JVzKnT7TOcDlmw2wlBCuLGzP0HrfTpe8fGtVcevpOGhb3IcmYroecXvtM24LYNjnwdGd9qBuHQ1EnR/+0zkkw0YacWy+XYGxp2LVclwQXFq0ijQ90ghoVXtS11urzvMDIeYW6da7QRmCFSDeLDDOOeCMSuwBQe6QnI2YceaUs1hYqyi70pQduTTKONO++SHVm9q7FEV2T/a5MRfjBzkx1zFP3fT4vkgfI7S4mB8wWNx6cR65CHaCq0bvC4NuLrC+iEZeBynSUT/wBNfnmOAiZ9GlSyb6IKeQl5xVM/JotJG9SIiQQGs04C5o x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear colleagues, Following the acquisition of my employer - ECI Telecom, by Ribbon, startin= g from 09-Jun-20 all the mails I will send to IETF will use alexander.vain= shtein@rbbn.com as my address. I will still be receiving emails addressed to alexander.vainshtein@ecitele= .com (at least for the time being= ). I will re-subscribe to all the IETF mailing lists using my new email once = it becomes operational. Regards, and apologies for possible inconvenience, Sasha Office: +972-39266302 Cell: +972-549266302 Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com __________________________________________________________________________= _ This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains inform= ation which is=20 CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have rece= ived this=20 transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then = delete the original=20 and all copies thereof. __________________________________________________________________________= _ --_000_AM0PR03MB4499A03C46A28A22693EAA439D890AM0PR03MB4499eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear colleagues,

Following the acquisition of my employer – EC= I Telecom, by Ribbon, starting from 09-Jun-20 all the mails I will send to= IETF will use alexander.vainshtein@rbbn= .com as my address.

 

I will still be receiving emails addressed to alexander.vainshtein@ecitele.com (at least for the time being).

 

I will re-subscribe to all the IETF mailing lists u= sing my new email once it becomes operational.

 

Regards, and apologies for possible inconvenience,<= o:p>

Sasha

 

Office: +972-39266302

Cell:      +972-549266= 302

Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com=

 


__________________________________________________________________________= _

This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains inform= ation which is
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have rece= ived this
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then = delete the original
and all copies thereof.
__________________________________________________________________________= _
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X-Original-MAILFROM: ryoo@etri.re.kr X-Original-RCPTTO: detnet@ietf.org Received: from [10.162.225.103] (HELO send001.gov-dooray.com) ([10.162.225.103]) by smtp002.gov-dooray.com with SMTP id dea470b55ed9aee5; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 11:33:09 +0900 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; b=LhchRc9r2DHDJ5RS5+gThnx8DZgDvZfAKfbMht2V/8ZtUKeVAUhuJvgnBgwF+lewadDmsYljX5 XtDqScdsn48Wz95U/oFwVdXWyJSI3NCd1CtWMlwrZja2km6HkDbqGEA0iDvMhRgeOFI0JlWUCaYW kUAbyRZ/W0hUt5qMlDIuWKZ2swFVYAU4zrpVtHLOxJUdOiG6jZZZL6ANLDaSS0ShWIFjmPFgrIhy wl9Z5znrNb9BQ9qgUJUZq7GzlBFYPox3mOA4XqNuHHx5Nu/PN85TrrNDq490yd++K55q+puKiTLA EdDW4iKaxPWfd/GszivVLHH/AOTdNyGhxFcWtNeQ==; c=relaxed/relaxed; s=selector; d=dooray.com; v=1; bh=kuFqYXRM3A1pCLfkyjJO/V9DD2jETJx1upLgJzqB/vo=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID; From: Jeong-dong Ryoo To: DetNet WG , Lou Berger , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Varga_A?= Cc: "draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.authors@ietf.org" , 'DetNet Chairs' Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8216_228323298.1591324381514" X-Dsn-Request: true Importance: Normal X-Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 11:33:02 +0900 (KST) Sender: ryoo@etri.re.kr References: <62b15a1d-dbb8-da37-f0d5-f84f74f1e8a2@labn.net> In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Support of FREOF in DetNet MPLS relay nodes as shown in Figure 1 of RFC 8655 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 02:39:42 -0000 ------=_Part_8216_228323298.1591324381514 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RGVhciBCYWxhJ3pzLCZuYnNwOwoKVGhhbmsgeW91IGZvciB5b3VyIGVtYWlsLiBJdCBpcyBnb29k IHRvIGNvbmZpcm0gdGhhdCB0aGUgZmlndXJlIGlzIGludGVuZGVkIHRvIGJlIHN1cHBvcnRlZC4K 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Cc: Lou Berger , iesg-secretary@ietf.org, lberger@labn.net, detnet@ietf.org, detnet-chairs@ietf.org Message-ID: <159156427902.11427.16781572436105862847@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 14:11:19 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-detnet-security-10 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 21:11:19 -0000 Lou Berger has requested publication of draft-ietf-detnet-security-10 as Informational on behalf of the DETNET working group. Please verify the document's state at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-security/ From nobody Sun Jun 7 14:12:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 223303A0979 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 14:12:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.1.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <159156434012.9098.1376797384776706852@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 14:12:20 -0700 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Milestones changed for detnet WG X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 21:12:20 -0000 Changed milestone "Submit security considerations document for publications", resolved as "Done". Changed milestone "Submit data flow information model (informational)", resolved as "Done". 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Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 515923A0B67; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:01:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.1.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: detnet@ietf.org Message-ID: <159162850924.27209.10620478964441198910@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 08:01:49 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-07.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 15:01:50 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking WG of the IETF. Title : DetNet Data Plane: MPLS Authors : Balázs Varga János Farkas Lou Berger Andrew G. Malis Stewart Bryant Jouni Korhonen Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-07.txt Pages : 30 Date : 2020-06-08 Abstract: This document specifies the Deterministic Networking data plane when operating over an MPLS Packet Switched Networks. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-07 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-07 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-07 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jun 8 08:01:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2117D3A0B44; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:01:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.1.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: detnet@ietf.org Message-ID: <159162850904.28370.2164500863963372807@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 08:01:49 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-ip-over-tsn-03.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 15:01:50 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking WG of the IETF. Title : DetNet Data Plane: IP over IEEE 802.1 Time Sensitive Networking (TSN) Authors : Balázs Varga János Farkas Andrew G. Malis Stewart Bryant Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-ip-over-tsn-03.txt Pages : 12 Date : 2020-06-08 Abstract: This document specifies the Deterministic Networking IP data plane when operating over a TSN sub-network. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip-over-tsn/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-ip-over-tsn-03 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-detnet-ip-over-tsn-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-detnet-ip-over-tsn-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jun 8 08:02:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B9323A0C81; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:01:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.1.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: detnet@ietf.org Message-ID: <159162851720.28370.3261499762659658196@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 08:01:57 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-over-tsn-03.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 15:02:04 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking WG of the IETF. Title : DetNet Data Plane: MPLS over IEEE 802.1 Time Sensitive Networking (TSN) Authors : Balázs Varga János Farkas Andrew G. Malis Stewart Bryant Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-over-tsn-03.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2020-06-08 Abstract: This document specifies the Deterministic Networking MPLS data plane when operating over a TSN sub-network. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-over-tsn/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-over-tsn-03 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-over-tsn-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-over-tsn-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jun 8 08:02:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F19C3A0CFE; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:02:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.1.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: detnet@ietf.org Message-ID: <159162853027.29475.3559430186693601013@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 08:02:10 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-tsn-vpn-over-mpls-03.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 15:02:17 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking WG of the IETF. Title : DetNet Data Plane: IEEE 802.1 Time Sensitive Networking over MPLS Authors : Balázs Varga János Farkas Andrew G. Malis Stewart Bryant Don Fedyk Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-tsn-vpn-over-mpls-03.txt Pages : 15 Date : 2020-06-08 Abstract: This document specifies the Deterministic Networking data plane when TSN networks are interconnected over a DetNet MPLS Network. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-tsn-vpn-over-mpls/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-tsn-vpn-over-mpls-03 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-detnet-tsn-vpn-over-mpls-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-detnet-tsn-vpn-over-mpls-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jun 8 15:28:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12DBB3A0865; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 15:28:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.854 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.854 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=1.242, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id urZPJh2oVfm6; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 15:28:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x244.google.com (mail-lj1-x244.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9EE23A0863; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 15:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x244.google.com with SMTP id i27so11606732ljb.12; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 15:28:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WBiAbjyDH4DzvgEyxvY59I3tJwAuxe+iqpLyyvp79BE=; b=fo/a8gSzHUohcCeWc8sB0SW17Uc0NdJwFGU9Byi1tP5QVNPJR/+jcMLXs+RjYWwWGg OIQR8Vyjg+a61tSb324eGIPDXwZLTFSvIT55IVKyXxVxXqqFPOQd3IkA1tU/ENckFC4r RC+CQF73Kec5RGZEYzqIbk5roqG9u8B5xtnqWPO3xhcJ2P6/iU/Mtn4x/Ujq8yWfzJBQ RMCW0h4rJQzy56SIQikwINO68QKLjQTqftdPv4W/6QMQMfqNU4fXNs8ZbpXc/FNlvEJ4 RCn3KaWUFOkvwJ5iGwEpmBllxQhNoZqNPWJ3cmHq+vXa6ghbIvrkNH4SypeswfcPGNpB Omgg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WBiAbjyDH4DzvgEyxvY59I3tJwAuxe+iqpLyyvp79BE=; b=AV0N0YMA5/2lHJ4fYNQUcCrm8Q3mlwouTPbJx9f2Pevw2IXQ7/0mVKYaBLOx6iGC7O pP6GEUVxnBMfKQOfjj19oJELLjbvWLNa3DugtK6nottBC/o1+NywqKwDAPC2T7qey7PB I96A/V2kYtByPq6L6R2F99IaO8p7m2DUGZUntjoNIjeadNztF5n+L6/lzvT9RyCDv5xZ Zh2j4ypiriF8BYi4Nr8w/GVtH0Ahx2U7R66YE+vuS1ANoxg7Q07xmgrvnOriAJOp6iRV iG55dU7J58i2ROI5eQKMrobJUyolQEb/MPYYKcle3v31eAgy3JnBHhwiCLl9wlU4kK0y WAvA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5336wN//7xy3Aml5CYKg/GyOozcpu2mhVuS7c81mYoI2g9r1I/Fr y8DF+MJ0dpgtVDAUzz+VvnkcYsqcXXgjPIRf/J4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxPLoz4KyKE8UTMI/Ds97A8/FuhmfPaqY2v0yQDV81JQvmGAqsSqxGDw5vpfETIJkr7yt5iKPZ2TNly9Klj3VQ= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b88c:: with SMTP id r12mr365165ljp.266.1591655301827; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 15:28:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <62b15a1d-dbb8-da37-f0d5-f84f74f1e8a2@labn.net> In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 15:28:10 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jeong-dong Ryoo Cc: DetNet WG , Lou Berger , =?UTF-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Varga_A?= , "draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.authors@ietf.org" , DetNet Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ded28a05a79a201e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Support of FREOF in DetNet MPLS relay nodes as shown in Figure 1 of RFC 8655 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 22:28:27 -0000 --000000000000ded28a05a79a201e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jeong-dong, thank you for your detailed analysis of the replication function impact on S-Label. I've followed the discussion and I think that I agree with Balazs' interpretation of the text. In my opinion, Section 4.2.2 point= s to the scenario you've brought up for the discussion, i.e., processing of a DetNEt flow by a transit DetNet node when replicating a DetNet packet as part of PREOF. In the draft has been noted that: Relay nodes MAY swap S-Label values when processing an app-flow. I understand this sentence that each DetNet packet processed by a relay node, which is the node performing replication function, MAY swap the ingress S-Label to a different S-Label for each copy. What do you think? Regards, Greg On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 7:39 PM Jeong-dong Ryoo wrote: > Dear Bala'zs, > > Thank you for your email. It is good to confirm that the figure is > intended to be supported. > > In the same section, the following sentence states that only a single > S-Label value can be used for a signle app-flow, which might have multipl= e > member flows. Since the S-Label value is assigned by a "receiver," one > might think that current document can only support the cases that relay > nodes do not perform the replication function. > "The S-Label value MUST be provisioned per app-flow via configuration, > e.g., via the controller plane described in > [I-D.ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework]." > I guess that you would see the aforementioned sentence in the scope of th= e > receiver. > > From Lou's email, I guess that I am not the only person who reads the > document differently from your intention. > > Since we, as a group, are not changing any behavior already defined in th= e > document, but are making it clearer, would you mind if you add the text y= ou > wrote in your email to the draft? Specifically, > "If a node performs replication there will be multiple outgoing DetNet > member flows. > If these member flows have separate =E2=80=9Creceivers=E2=80=9D their S-l= abel values > may be different. Label allocation solutions are out-of-scope in this > document." > > > Best regards, > > Jeong-dong > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A" > To: "ryoo@etri.re.kr" ; "DetNet WG" ; > "Lou Berger" ; > Cc: "draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.authors@ietf.org" < > draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.authors@ietf.org>; "'DetNet Chairs'" < > detnet-chairs@ietf.org>; > Sent: 2020-06-04 (=EB=AA=A9) 22:04:28 (UTC+09:00) > Subject: RE: Re: [Detnet] Support of FREOF in DetNet MPLS relay nodes as > shown in Figure 1 of RFC 8655 > > Hi Jeong-dong, > > > > I cannot agree with your conclusion. DetNet MPLS data plane document DOES > support Figure 1 of RFC 8655. > > > > Section =E2=80=9C4.2.2. S-Labels=E2=80=9D states explicitly how to use th= e S-label field. > > > > ... MPLS-aware DetNet end systems and edge nodes, which are > > by definition MPLS ingress and egress nodes, MUST add and remove an > > app-flow specific d-CW and S-Label. > > > > ... Note that S-Labels provide > > app-flow identification at the downstream DetNet service sub-layer > > receiver, not the sender. As such, S-Labels MUST be allocated by the > > entity that controls the service sub-layer receiving node's label > > space ... > > > > So, the edge node have to add an S-Label to the outgoing DetNet flow > packet and the value of the > > S-Label is defined by the receiver. So, if edge node performs replication > there will be multiple > > outgoing DetNet member flows. If these member flows have separate > =E2=80=9Creceiver=E2=80=9D they S-label > > may be different. Label allocation solutions are out-of-scope in this > document. > > > > External nodal behavior fully defined, how it is implemented inside the > box is up to implementation. > > I hope that has clarified your concerns. > > > > Thanks & Cheers > > Bala=E2=80=99zs > > > > > > *From:* ryoo@etri.re.kr > *Sent:* Thursday, June 4, 2020 6:42 AM > *To:* Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A ; DetNet WG < > detnet@ietf.org>; Lou Berger > *Cc:* draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.authors@ietf.org; 'DetNet Chairs' < > detnet-chairs@ietf.org> > *Subject:* RE: Re: [Detnet] Support of FREOF in DetNet MPLS relay nodes > as shown in Figure 1 of RFC 8655 > > > > Lou, > > > > My answer to your question: > > I don't see, either. > > > > If no new text on different S-Labels is added, my conclusion seems that > current DetNet MPLS data plane document does NOT support Figure 1 of RFC > 8655. > > Do you agree? > > > > Best regards, > > > > Jeong-dong > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Lou Berger" > > To: "Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A" ; "ryoo@etri.re.kr= " < > ryoo@etri.re.kr>; "DetNet WG" ; > > Cc: "draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.authors@ietf.org" < > draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.authors@ietf.org>; "'DetNet Chairs'" < > detnet-chairs@ietf.org>; > > Sent: 2020-06-03 (=EC=88=98) 20:30:42 (UTC+09:00) > > Subject: Re: [Detnet] Support of FREOF in DetNet MPLS relay nodes as show= n > in Figure 1 of RFC 8655 > > > > Hi, > > I have a question, see below > > On 6/3/2020 6:52 AM, Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A wrote: > > I have another issue related to our current discussion. Current MPLS data > plane document seems to assume that only one S-Label value is used for al= l > duplicated packets during replication process. Considering the fact that > S-Labels are local to each node and advertised to its upstream nodes, an > edge or relay node that performs the packet replication may push differen= t > S-Label values for different outgoing duplicates. In Figure 1 of RFC 8655 > (DetNet Architecture), when the right-most node and two middle relay node= s > assign different S-Label values, the left-most node, which generates > duplicates towards two relay nodes, would have to push different S-Labels > for different relay nodes. > > In order to make a clarification on this issue, I would like to propose t= o > add following text after the second sentence of the third paragraph in > Section 4.2.3.1: > > The S-Label value in each copy of the outgoing packet > > may be different from each other when duplicated packets > > are forwarded to different relay nodes. > > This section is dealing with the F-labels. S-labels are covered > in =E2=80=9C4.2.2. S-Labels=E2=80=9D. > > Last sentence of the first paragraph covers your text explicitly: =E2=80= =9CRelay > nodes MAY swap > > S-Label values when processing an app-flow.=E2=80=9D Second sentence of 4= .2.3.1 > also refers to > > the possible swap operation on S-Labels. > > [JR] The issue I raised above cannot be resolved by swap operation. We > need to cover the situation that S-Label value of one outgoing copy can b= e > different from that of the other outgoing copy if those two copies are > forwarded to two different relay nodes. > > That is an internal implementation question, what we do not > intend to define. > You may implement replication before S-label swap. Order of functions in = a > given > implementation is out-of-scope for the draft. > > I don't see support in the document for having a single service send > different S-Labels, for the *same* service, on two different member flows= . > Nor do I see support for a single service being split into two services i= n > the current document without an A-Label (and pop operation). I'm not > saying it's not possible, but rather that neither are part of the current > definition. Of course, I may have missed something in the text. > > Jeong-dong (or anyone else), > > Can you point to where you see these S-Label operations being allowed > for in the current document? > > Thank you, > > Lou > > (as contributor) > > > > _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --000000000000ded28a05a79a201e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=C2=A0Jeong-dong,
thank you for your detailed analys= is=C2=A0of the replication function impact on S-Label. I've followed th= e discussion and I think that I agree with Balazs' interpretation of th= e text. In my opinion, Section 4.2.2=C2=A0points to the scenario y= ou've brought up for the discussion, i.e., processing of a DetNEt flow = by a transit DetNet node when replicating a DetNet packet as part of PREOF.= In the draft has been noted that:
Relay nodes MAY swap S-Label values when = processing an app-flow.
I understand this sentence that e= ach DetNet packet processed by a relay node, which is the node performing r= eplication function, MAY swap the ingress S-Label to a different S-Label fo= r each copy. What do you think?

Regards,
Greg<= br>


On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 7:39 PM Jeong-dong Ryoo <= ryoo@etri.re.kr> wrote:
=
Dear Bala'zs,=C2= =A0

Thank you for your email. It is good to confir= m that the figure is intended to be supported.

In = the same section, the following sentence states that only a single S-Label = value can be used for a signle app-flow, which might have multiple member f= lows. Since the S-Label value is assigned by a "receiver," one mi= ght think that current document can only support the cases that relay nodes= do not perform the replication function. =C2=A0=C2=A0
If a node performs replication there will be multiple outgoin= g DetNet member flows.=C2=A0
If these member f= lows have separate =E2=80=9Creceivers=E2=80=9D their S-label=C2=A0values
may be different. Label allocation solutions are= out-of-scope in this document."


<= /div>
Best regards,

Jeong-dong

<= /div>



-----Original Messag= e-----
From: "Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A" <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.co= m>
To: "ryoo@etri.re.kr" <ryoo@etri.re.kr>; "DetNet WG" <detnet@ietf.org>; &quo= t;Lou Berger" <lberger@labn.net>;
Sen= t: 2020-06-04 (=EB=AA=A9) 22:04:28 (UTC+09:00)
Subject: RE: Re: [= Detnet] Support of FREOF in DetNet MPLS relay nodes as shown in Figure 1 of= RFC 8655

Hi Jeong-dong,

=C2=A0

I c= annot agree with your conclusion. DetNet MPLS data plane document DOES supp= ort Figure 1 of RFC 8655.

=C2=A0

Section =E2=80=9C4.2.2. S-Labe= ls=E2=80=9D states explicitly how to use the S-label field.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0...=C2=A0 MPLS-aware DetNet end systems and=C2=A0edge nodes, which are

=C2=A0 =C2=A0by defin= ition MPLS ingress and egress nodes,=C2=A0MUST add=C2=A0and remove an

=C2=A0 =C2=A0app-flow specific d-CW and=C2= =A0S-Label.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0...=C2=A0 Note that=C2=A0S-Labels provide<= /p>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0app-flow=C2=A0identification at=C2=A0the downstream DetNet service sub-layer

=C2=A0 =C2=A0= receiver, not the sender.=C2=A0 As such= ,=C2=A0S-Labels MUST be allocated by=C2=A0= the

=C2=A0=C2=A0 entity that controls the service sub-layer receiving node's label
=C2=A0=C2=A0 sp=
ace ... =C2=A0

=C2=A0

So, the edge node hav= e to add an S-Label to the outgoing DetNet flow packet and the value of the=

S-Label is defined by the receiver. So, if edge node performs replic= ation there will be multiple

outgoing DetNet member flows. If these m= ember flows have separate =E2=80=9Creceiver=E2=80=9D they S-label

may= be different. Label allocation solutions are out-of-scope in this document= .

=C2=A0

External nodal behavior fully defined, how it is imple= mented inside the box is up to implementation.

I hope that has clarif= ied your concerns.

=C2=A0

Thanks & Cheers

Bala=E2=80= =99zs

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: ryoo@etri.re.kr <ryoo@etri.re.kr>
Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 6:42 AM
To: Bal= =C3=A1zs Varga A <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org>; Lou Berge= r <lberger@labn.ne= t>
Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.authors@ietf.org= ; 'DetNet Chairs' <detnet-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Re: [Detnet] Support of FREOF in DetNet MPLS relay nodes as shown i= n Figure 1 of RFC 8655

=C2=A0

Lou,=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

My answer to your question:

I don&= #39;t see, either.

=C2=A0

If no new text = on different S-Labels is added, my conclusion seems that current DetNet MPL= S data plane document does NOT support Figure 1 of RFC 8655.

=

Do you agree?

=C2=A0

Best regards,

=

=C2=A0

Jeong-dong

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

-----Original Message-----

From: "Lou Berger" <lberger@labn.net>

To: "Bal=C3= =A1zs Varga A" <balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com>; "ryoo@etri.re.kr" <ryoo@etri.re.kr>; "D= etNet WG" <det= net@ietf.org>;

Sent: 2020-06-03 (=EC=88=98) 20:30:42 (UTC+09:00)

Subjec= t: Re: [Detnet] Support of FREOF in DetNet MPLS relay nodes as shown in Fig= ure 1 of RFC 8655

=C2=A0

Hi,

I have a qu= estion, see below

On 6/3/2020 6:52 AM, Bal=C3=A1zs Varga A wrote= :

I have another issue related to our current discuss= ion. Current MPLS data plane document seems to assume that only one S-Label= value is used for all duplicated packets during replication process. Consi= dering the fact that S-Labels are local to each node and advertised to its = upstream nodes, an edge or relay node that performs the packet replication = may push different S-Label values for different outgoing duplicates. In Fig= ure 1 of RFC 8655 (DetNet Architecture), when the right-most node and two m= iddle relay nodes assign different S-Label values, the left-most node, whic= h generates duplicates towards two relay nodes, would have to push differen= t S-Labels for different relay nodes.=C2=A0

In order to make a clarification on this issue, I would like to = propose to add following text after the second sentence of the third paragr= aph in Section 4.2.3.1:

The S-Label value in each copy of the outgoing= packet=C2=A0

may be different from each oth= er when duplicated packets=C2=A0

are forwarded to different relay nodes.

<= span style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)"><Balazs> This section is dealing = with the F-labels. S-labels are covered in =E2=80=9C4.2.2. S-Labels=E2=80= =9D.=C2=A0

Last sentence = of the first paragraph covers your text explicitly: =E2=80=9CRelay nodes MA= Y swap=C2=A0

S-Label valu= es when processing an app-flow.=E2=80=9D Second sentence of 4.2.3.1 also re= fers to

the possible swap= operation on S-Labels.

[JR] The i= ssue I raised above cannot be resolved by swap operation. We need to cover = the situation that S-Label value of one outgoing copy can be different from= that of the other outgoing copy if those two copies are forwarded to two d= ifferent relay nodes. =C2=A0

=C2=A0<Balazs> = That is an internal implementation question, what we do not intend to defin= e.
You may implement replication before S-label swap. Order of functio= ns in a given
=C2=A0 implementation is out-of-scope for the draft.

I don't see support in the document for having a = single service send different S-Labels, for the *same* service, on two diff= erent member flows.=C2=A0 Nor do I see support for a single service being s= plit into two services in the current document without an A-Label (and pop = operation).=C2=A0 I'm not saying it's not possible, but rather that= neither are part of the current definition.=C2=A0 Of course, I may have mi= ssed something in the text.=C2=A0

Jeong-dong (or anyone else),

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Can you point to where you see these S-Label operations being= allowed for in the current document?

Thank you,

Lou

(as = contributor)

=C2=A0

______________________________________= _________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/det= net

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
--000000000000ded28a05a79a201e-- From nobody Thu Jun 11 01:05:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C2B43A0A1F; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 01:05:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.3.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: detnet@ietf.org Message-ID: <159186274318.7264.13442325288040253160@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 01:05:43 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-yang-06.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:05:43 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking WG of the IETF. Title : Deterministic Networking (DetNet) Configuration YANG Model Authors : Xuesong Geng Mach(Guoyi) Chen Yeoncheol Ryoo Zhenqiang Li Reshad Rahman Don Fedyk Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-yang-06.txt Pages : 75 Date : 2020-06-11 Abstract: This document contains the specification for Deterministic Networking flow configuration YANG Model. The model allows for provisioning of end-to-end DetNet service along the path without dependency on any signaling protocol. The YANG module defined in this document conforms to the Network Management Datastore Architecture (NMDA). 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Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:10:18 -0000 ------=_Part_48294_837362136.1591863008744 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R3JlZywgdGhhbmsgeW91IGZvciB5b3VyIGVtYWlsLgoKSSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIHlvdSBvbiB0aGF0 IGN1cnJlbnQgdGV4dCBvbiB0aGUgc3dhcCBvcGVyYXRpbiBjYW4gZG8gdGhlIGpvYiBmb3IgcmVs YXkgbm9kZXMuCgpIb3dldmVyLCBpZiB3ZSBjb25zaWRlciBhbiBlZGdlIG5vZGUsIHdoaWNoIGRv ZXMgbm90IHBlcmZvcm0gc3dhcCBvcGVyYXRpb24sIEkgZG9uJ3Qgc2VlIGFueSB0ZXh0IHRoYXQg aW5kaWNhdGVzIGRpZmZlcmVudCBTLUxhYmVscyBjYW4gYmUgcHVzaGVkIG9uIGRpZmZlcmVudCBt ZW1iZXIgZmxvd3MgZm9yIHRoZSBzYW1lIHNldmljZSBpbiB0aGUgZWRnZSBub2RlLiBUaGUgdGV4 dCBJIHF1b3RlZCBmcm9tIHRoZSBkcmFmdCwgIlRoZSBTLUxhYmVsIHZhbHVlIE1VU1QgYmUgcHJv dmlzaW9uZWQgcGVyIGFwcC1mbG93IHZpYSBjb25maWd1cmF0aW9uIC4uLiwiJm5ic3A7dGVsbHMg bWUgdGhhdCBhIHNpbmdsZSBTLUxhYmVsIHZhbHVlIGlzIHVzZWQgZm9yIG9uZSBhcHAtZmxvdy4g 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boundary="_000_AM7PR07MB69945C9CBD8FC9D5ADC5DFFCF2800AM7PR07MB6994eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 352158c6-6081-417e-3404-08d80dfb5306 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Jun 2020 11:33:55.3335 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: pOcXmafk25kN8PMKCMilMiay5LwTuGdzLiicqZBaFoyJGDl59IDKv7EZyLYPUuV6StXshHYa8M1/ll2M6pisKai9qA89+Q5hSQQNi3mS+so= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM7PR07MB6881 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Reminder: Interim today X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:34:00 -0000 --_000_AM7PR07MB69945C9CBD8FC9D5ADC5DFFCF2800AM7PR07MB6994eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, We are having an interim today from 13:00 to 15:00 UTC. WebEx: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm266a006f0f02cdbd1b5c10de72= 826ba2 Please note that the WebEx Chat is only for queue management at the mic: +q =3D enter queue, chair will ask you to unmute/talk -q =3D leave queue before being called on Please use Jabber for generic chat: xmpp:detnet@jabber.ietf.org?join Please join minute taking in the Etherpad: https://etherpad.ietf.org:9009/p= /interim-2020-detnet-01 Talk to you soon, DetNet WG Chairs --_000_AM7PR07MB69945C9CBD8FC9D5ADC5DFFCF2800AM7PR07MB6994eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

We are having an interim today from 13:00 to 15:00 U= TC.

 

WebEx: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm266a006f0f02cdbd1b5c10de72826ba2<= /a>

 

Please note that the WebEx Chat is only for queue ma= nagement at the mic:

+q =3D enter queue, chair will ask you to unmute= /talk

-q =3D leave queue before being called on=

 

Please use Jabber for generic chat: xmpp:detnet@jabb= er.ietf.org?join

 

Please join minute taking in the Etherpad: https://etherpad.ietf.org:9009/p/interim-2020-detnet-01

 

Talk to you soon,

DetNet WG Chairs

 

--_000_AM7PR07MB69945C9CBD8FC9D5ADC5DFFCF2800AM7PR07MB6994eurp_-- From nobody Thu Jun 11 06:01:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E012A3A0818 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:01:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a67Dg1_bR1jJ for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.25.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0665A3A0808 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw12.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.12]) by gproxy1.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4943D74283E58 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:01:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id jMpajq9VtN8ArjMpajoIdR; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:01:18 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=eZQTgYMH c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=dLZJa+xiwSxG16/P+YVxDGlgEgI=:19 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10:nop_ipv6 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10:nop_rcvd_month_year a=Vy_oeq2dmq0A:10:endurance_base64_authed_username_1 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=NojvYFcnAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=x9aRG4HHHTMjSn7dXHsA:9 a=zJR8BuEmtiM9LNbM:21 a=6Kh8TOw5L_CATbHX:21 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10:nop_charset_2 a=9uUzcS5Nrb8A:10:demote_hacked_domain_2 a=IKQvU5-mGa0A:10:nop_port a=UqCG9HQmAAAA:8 a=y6yYjklxys0GCjZpCTUA:9 a=sUgP9uM645ZIY6qt:21 a=BVs_puSS8ZFi_EYI:21 a=0xeWxS9hvJgnjJHJ:21 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10:nop_mshtml_css_classes a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10:nop_msword_html a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10:nop_css_in_html a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10:nop_html a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From: References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID :Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To: Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe :List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=szLneVajuyTr7lSOwn4OK/HNEQe9gLOgZtnY7F2l/tY=; b=QM9IxhkW5VPXVQS7Da193ikvSd f451ra1Twb24uvbcmG7bFomdII1v/e2Y9v/yn6oG1kIWP33knEc12BDN3GYs6jAm7Toau7H12cmfS uz+skAfCjvwnZrLZ59T/9O6z/; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=29997 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jjMpZ-002sW7-Ui; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:01:18 -0600 To: Janos Farkas , DetNet WG References: From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <95827897-1010-ec21-a0a6-051815a1ae20@labn.net> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:01:16 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------EACDF70DBA493C4027603971" Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1jjMpZ-002sW7-Ui X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:29997 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 2 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Reminder: Interim today X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:01:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EACDF70DBA493C4027603971 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We're getting started.... On 6/11/2020 7:33 AM, Janos Farkas wrote: > > Hi, > > We are having an interim today from 13:00 to 15:00 UTC. > > WebEx: > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m266a006f0f02cdbd1b5c10de72826ba2 > > Please note that the WebEx Chat is only for queue management at the mic: > > +q = enter queue, chair will ask you to unmute/talk > > -q = leave queue before being called on > > Please use Jabber for generic chat: xmpp:detnet@jabber.ietf.org?join > > Please join minute taking in the Etherpad: > https://etherpad.ietf.org:9009/p/interim-2020-detnet-01 > > > Talk to you soon, > > DetNet WG Chairs > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet --------------EACDF70DBA493C4027603971 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

We're getting started....

On 6/11/2020 7:33 AM, Janos Farkas wrote:

Hi,

 

We are having an interim today from 13:00 to 15:00 UTC.

 

WebEx: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m266a006f0f02cdbd1b5c10de72826ba2

 

Please note that the WebEx Chat is only for queue management at the mic:

+q = enter queue, chair will ask you to unmute/talk

-q = leave queue before being called on

 

Please use Jabber for generic chat: xmpp:detnet@jabber.ietf.org?join

 

Please join minute taking in the Etherpad: https://etherpad.ietf.org:9009/p/interim-2020-detnet-01

 

Talk to you soon,

DetNet WG Chairs

 


_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
--------------EACDF70DBA493C4027603971-- From nobody Thu Jun 11 08:30:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 421A63A0064 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:30:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Icu6HvC9pf3m for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.25.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46EE93A0045 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw11.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.11]) by gproxy1.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56B3B743A76CC for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:30:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id jPA0jAhbNqNBqjPA0jr1K1; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:30:32 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=ALZkxedA c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=dLZJa+xiwSxG16/P+YVxDGlgEgI=:19 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10:nop_ipv6 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10:nop_charset_1 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10:nop_rcvd_month_year a=Vy_oeq2dmq0A:10:endurance_base64_authed_username_1 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=2WYdHlnRKrVm7EgVkl4A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10:nop_charset_2 a=IKQvU5-mGa0A:10:nop_port a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 a=pHzHmUro8NiASowvMSCR:22 a=Ew2E2A-JSTLzCXPT_086:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:Subject:From:Cc:To:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID: In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=/B6vNT16N63djtzyallBAg1whcJ+OzFqkkAyZuOw3y8=; b=LHBPZ4V5cNOWr4W5yo6E9F2IPW WJmaGI0eWqv8urEjDYCK/1/BGKZ5ndlv0s7zEqUfZ1czNpC1YlOHRfdzjYp9Id0Jts9ckzB25p74F ozOb+mYGdqkf5JqaNplOePXnB; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=11735 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jjP9U-003Zle-Vj; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:30:01 -0600 To: DetNet WG Cc: DetNet Chairs From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <05dd6872-59c5-6ccd-5b37-d7a8a46168e0@labn.net> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:29:59 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1jjP9U-003Zle-Vj X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:11735 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 2 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Minutes from today's meetings X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:30:38 -0000 Hi,     Slides, bluesheets and minutes are available at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2020-detnet-01/session/detnet Thanks to all who contributed to the meeting! Please send any fixes to the list and/or make them at https://etherpad.ietf.org:9009/p/interim-2020-detnet-01 (and let all know you made the corrections). Lou (and Janos, Ethan) From nobody Thu Jun 11 13:53:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AEC23A086E; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:53:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.3.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: detnet@ietf.org, db3546@att.com, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, detnet-chairs@ietf.org, The IESG , draft-ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman , eagros@dolby.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <159190880032.30455.8337746510837870961@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:53:20 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Document Action: 'DetNet Data Plane Framework' to Informational RFC (draft-ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework-06.txt) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 20:53:21 -0000 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'DetNet Data Plane Framework' (draft-ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework-06.txt) as Informational RFC This document is the product of the Deterministic Networking Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Alvaro Retana, Martin Vigoureux and Deborah Brungard. A URL of this Internet Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework/ Technical Summary This document provides an overall framework for the DetNet data plane. It covers concepts and considerations that are generally common to any Deterministic Networking data plane specification. Working Group Summary Nothing specific to this Framework draft. Document Quality DetNet is based on well-known IETF protocols (IP, MPLS) which are used without modification. At this time there are no shipping implementations of DetNet per se. Personnel Who is the Document Shepherd for this document? Ethan Grossman Who is the Responsible Area Director? Deborah Brungard From nobody Mon Jun 15 19:00:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33D663A0F84; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 19:00:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wLTavb_RT2VX; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 19:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E3833A0F83; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 19:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml714-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 334B5D128506F892F063; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 03:00:20 +0100 (IST) Received: from dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.100) by lhreml714-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 03:00:19 +0100 Received: from dggeme702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.98) by dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.100) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:00:17 +0800 Received: from dggeme702-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.9.48.229]) by dggeme702-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.9.48.229]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:00:17 +0800 From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" To: "detnet@ietf.org" , DetNet Chairs CC: Don Fedyk , Yeoncheol Ryoo , "Mach Chen" , "ryoo@etri.re.kr" Thread-Topic: DetNet YANG Model Update Thread-Index: AdZDgcdDaxPQbKP1QuufXaGyk5ndRg== Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 02:00:17 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.203.157] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_adc4f4db8d1a4953b2802fa4deff7dd3huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] DetNet YANG Model Update X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 02:00:24 -0000 --_000_adc4f4db8d1a4953b2802fa4deff7dd3huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi WG, After today's discussion, we further figure out the differences between the= se two modes, as follows: 1. The parameter should be designed as bi-directional or uni-directio= nal. 2. The parameters of "traffic specification" should be located in ser= vice sub-layer or forwarding sub-layer 3. Encapsulation of service sub-layer should be the same all the way = or could be different after replication or elimination Best Regards Xuesong --_000_adc4f4db8d1a4953b2802fa4deff7dd3huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi W= G,

 

Afte= r today’s discussion, we further figure out the differences between t= hese two modes, as follows:

1= .   &= nbsp;   The parameter should be= designed as bi-directional or uni-directional.

2= .   &= nbsp;   The parameters of ̶= 0;traffic specification” should be located in service sub-layer or fo= rwarding sub-layer

3= .   &= nbsp;   Encapsulation of servic= e sub-layer should be the same all the way or could be different after repl= ication or elimination

 

Best= Regards

Xues= ong

 

--_000_adc4f4db8d1a4953b2802fa4deff7dd3huaweicom_-- From nobody Mon Jun 15 22:14:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 682793A104C; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 22:14:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Martin Duke via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman , eagros@dolby.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.3.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Martin Duke Message-ID: <159228445891.12118.5745453175295114952@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 22:14:19 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Martin Duke's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:14:19 -0000 Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for addressing most of the extensive tsvart comments. Sec 3 says DetNet might alter the DSCPs. Sec 7 says “ From a data plane perspective this document does not add or modify any header information.†These appear to be in contradiction. Sec 4.1 “In order to maximize reuse of existing mechanisms, DetNet-aware applications and end systems SHOULD NOT mix DetNet and non-DetNet traffic within a single 5-tuple.“ I don’t understand this. What’s the point of having a 6-tuple if you can’t keep 5 constant and vary the DSCP? Sec 5.2 discourages the use of “multiple paths.†But Figure 4 clearly shows packets taking multiple paths to the destination. Nit: Sec 5.1 s/end systems/end system From nobody Tue Jun 16 05:20:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B0153A0DEF; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:20:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kdjfw1h1mUtu; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:20:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92AF53A0DE5; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml706-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id B4F3C2CBE35A7CD450A2; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:20:42 +0100 (IST) Received: from dggeme753-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.99) by lhreml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:20:41 +0100 Received: from dggeme702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.98) by dggeme753-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.99) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 20:20:39 +0800 Received: from dggeme702-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.9.48.229]) by dggeme702-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.9.48.229]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 20:20:39 +0800 From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" To: Janos Farkas , "Andrew G. Malis" CC: "draft-malis-detnet-controller-plane-framework@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Comments regarding draft-malis-detnet-controller-plane-framework Thread-Index: AdXJKJk9x/8j68t1RUW/ajdS9YX27gBvJBGABKABtoAZmy97sA== Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:20:38 +0000 Message-ID: <502e4d3af2e543afab2e3123fe253ed1@huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.203.157] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_502e4d3af2e543afab2e3123fe253ed1huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Comments regarding draft-malis-detnet-controller-plane-framework X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:20:48 -0000 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dGFudCBhbmQgdmFyeSB0aGUgRFNDUD8NCj4gDQo+IFNlYyA1LjIgZGlzY291cmFnZXMgdGhlIHVz ZSBvZiDigJxtdWx0aXBsZSBwYXRocy7igJ0gQnV0IEZpZ3VyZSA0IGNsZWFybHkgc2hvd3MgcGFj a2V0cw0KPiB0YWtpbmcgbXVsdGlwbGUgcGF0aHMgdG8gdGhlIGRlc3RpbmF0aW9uLg0KPiANCj4g Tml0Og0KPiBTZWMgNS4xIHMvZW5kIHN5c3RlbXMvZW5kIHN5c3RlbQ0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBf X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBkZXRuZXQg bWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IGRldG5ldEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9t YWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2RldG5ldA0K From nobody Tue Jun 16 06:38:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2FDE3A155C; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:38:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.871 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.871 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y0VdTSncRsXb; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5E043A1558; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57EEB548045; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:37:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 4D2F0440043; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:37:59 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:37:59 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: draft-ietf-detnet-bounded-latency@ietf.org Cc: detnet@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200616133759.GB36286@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] small suggestion and Q for draft-ietf-detnet-bounded-latency X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:38:11 -0000 Very nice work, managed to find just a bit of time so far to read some parts. a) one suggestion for the text: In section 6.5, it would be nice to add a reference such as: For further details about this section, see [NetCalBook], section 2.2, especially figure on page 24. Poor me was trying to find the descriptions in this section from rfc2212, but that wasn't a good idea ;-) b) As much as i am a fan of ASCII art for some things such as protocol header visualization, i don't think i will ever be a fan of formulas as complex as the ones in this document in ASCII. Not wanting to create work for the authors, so just theoretical: What would be the easiest tool chain to create a version of the draft with graphical formulas ? Has anyone ever tried to do that ? I fear it might not work at all if the formula is inline in the text, because in RFC XML i am not aware about inline graphics objects... ? This work maybe easier to do in something like MS word then for an easier to read output... ? (again, just theoretical, interested in tool chain insights, no ask to "nicefy" the doc.) 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Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:20:37 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: question about RFC8655 Thread-Index: AdZEj9XC7MApC4mCQfipN57/fY5sPw== Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:20:37 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2020-06-17T10:20:35Z; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Method=Standard; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Name=0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ActionId=aecb5dc5-080b-4479-9116-f77b1c3abb56; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ContentBits=2 dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.3.2.8 dlp-reaction: no-action authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; 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Flow-ID Mapping Examples", it mentions "Ethernet Flow-ID-specif= ic multicast flow" twice. Why is it specifically a "multicast" flow? The su= rrounding context does not seem to indicate multicast. Thanks. 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Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:04:32 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Varga_A?= To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: question about RFC8655 Thread-Index: AdZEj9XC7MApC4mCQfipN57/fY5sPwABfyZg Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:04:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: hu-HU, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2020-06-17T10:20:35Z; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Method=Standard; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Name=0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ActionId=aecb5dc5-080b-4479-9116-f77b1c3abb56; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ContentBits=2 authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; 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SFS:(4636009)(39860400002)(396003)(346002)(376002)(136003)(366004)(52536014)(76116006)(966005)(5660300002)(86362001)(83380400001)(7116003)(7696005)(478600001)(71200400001)(66556008)(8936002)(66476007)(64756008)(53546011)(316002)(66946007)(6506007)(66446008)(110136005)(186003)(26005)(33656002)(2906002)(55016002)(8676002)(9686003); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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 x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 62f77bd6-a4a4-4e1a-da69-08d812ae36fb X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Jun 2020 11:04:32.7540 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: sZvtt4rIVpNd7WY3sT9bkqslTVQeFenFQjbMU9kpIsmqUNej5AF4bIBbsEA2VPP5HU4a68cgsNQf8xkM6ba7XocBfVA0PRd1Ih/fvkI+T4U= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM0PR0702MB3777 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] question about RFC8655 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:04:36 -0000 Hi Jeffrey, It is coming from IEEE TSN specifications. "TSN supports unicast and multic= ast Streams of packets". Please, see e.g., IEEE 802.1CB specification. If the FRER function is used = in a TSN network, then conversion and using multicast destination MAC address is a quite common pr= actice. See for details=20 Annex "C.5 Example 5: Protocol interworking" of 802.1CB. Cheers Bala'zs -----Original Message----- From: detnet On Behalf Of Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 12:21 PM To: detnet@ietf.org Subject: [Detnet] question about RFC8655 Hi, In "4.7.3. Flow-ID Mapping Examples", it mentions "Ethernet Flow-ID-specif= ic multicast flow" twice. Why is it specifically a "multicast" flow? The su= rrounding context does not seem to indicate multicast. Thanks. Jeffrey Juniper Business Use Only _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D8fb94a53-d1089133-8fb90ac8-86e2237f= 51fb-af5f52837f6783af&q=3D1&e=3D2c80ddf1-dd09-45a9-bef4-b7aa43a8faad&u=3Dht= tps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fdetnet From nobody Wed Jun 17 06:16:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B6233A053F; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 06:15:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Henning Rogge via Datatracker To: Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model.all@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.3.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <159239975640.4608.8334028559256605247@ietfa.amsl.com> Reply-To: Henning Rogge Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 06:15:56 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Rtgdir early review of draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-10 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:15:57 -0000 Reviewer: Henning Rogge Review result: Has Nits Hi, I was asked by the IETF to review draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-10. First, I liked the Terminology section... for someone (as me) who is not familiar with the document and the WG, this helps to make sure everyone gets the basics right. Defining "Source" and "Destination" might feel strange at first glance, but this is much better than letting someone guess what kind of source is meant. Overall this draft gives me a good picture what is information are exchanged on DetNet. Some nitpicks for specific chapters: Chapter 2: How is "Destination" defined for multicast traffic. Chapter 5.5: Are the packets 5.5 (and other chapters) are referring to meant to be IP packets (with limited MTU?), or are they just "packets of information" to define the maximum size of a data burst? Chapter 5.8/6.7: a) DnIngressStatus is an "enumeration" (so there can be more than one), but it cannot "PartialFailed" ? b) Is "PartialFailed" meant to be used for redundancy or for multicast (or both)? Chapter 5.9/6.3: What time interval is used to specify the requirements of a DetNet Flow. "At least 1 million octet every second" is not as difficult as "At least one octet every microsecond", but both are the same octets/second value. Similar differences can appear for latency and loss. 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Wed, 17 Jun 2020 15:59:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159228445891.12118.5745453175295114952@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Martin Duke Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 15:59:08 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Black, David" Cc: The IESG , "eagros@dolby.com" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org" , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000014fd0605a84f9c22" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Martin Duke's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 22:59:22 -0000 --00000000000014fd0605a84f9c22 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't follow. Is there a reason that two flows couldn't share a 5-tuple, but with different DSCPs and one of them gets DetNet handling? On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 6:37 AM Black, David wrote: > Hi Martin, > > This one was my doing: > > > Sec 4.1 =E2=80=9CIn order to maximize reuse of existing mechanisms, Det= Net-aware > > applications and end systems SHOULD NOT mix DetNet and non-DetNet > > traffic within a single 5-tuple.=E2=80=9C > > > > I don=E2=80=99t understand this. What=E2=80=99s the point of having a 6= -tuple if you > can=E2=80=99t keep > > 5 constant and vary the DSCP? > > That's not what the text recommends. > > The recommendation is that any 5-tuple be all-DetNet or all-non-DetNet. > That enables DetNet to use 6-tuples for its own purposes and better coexi= st > with existing tools and practices that deal with 5-tuples. At its core, > Diffserv is a 5-tuple architecture. > > Thanks, --David > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: detnet On Behalf Of Martin Duke via > Datatracker > > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:14 AM > > To: The IESG > > Cc: eagros@dolby.com; detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org; > detnet- > > chairs@ietf.org > > Subject: [Detnet] Martin Duke's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06= : > (with > > COMMENT) > > > > > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > > > Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for > > draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email > > addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory > > paragraph, however.) > > > > > > Please refer to > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > COMMENT: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Thank you for addressing most of the extensive tsvart comments. > > > > Sec 3 says DetNet might alter the DSCPs. Sec 7 says =E2=80=9C From a da= ta plane > perspective > > this document does not add or modify any header information.=E2=80=9D T= hese > appear to be > > in contradiction. > > > > Sec 4.1 =E2=80=9CIn order to maximize reuse of existing mechanisms, Det= Net-aware > > applications and end systems SHOULD NOT mix DetNet and non-DetNet > > traffic within a single 5-tuple.=E2=80=9C > > > > I don=E2=80=99t understand this. What=E2=80=99s the point of having a 6= -tuple if you > can=E2=80=99t keep > > 5 constant and vary the DSCP? > > > > Sec 5.2 discourages the use of =E2=80=9Cmultiple paths.=E2=80=9D But Fi= gure 4 clearly > shows packets > > taking multiple paths to the destination. > > > > Nit: > > Sec 5.1 s/end systems/end system > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --00000000000014fd0605a84f9c22 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't follow. Is there a reason that two flows could= n't share a 5-tuple, but with different DSCPs and one of them gets DetN= et handling?

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 6:37 AM Black, David <David.Black@dell.com> wrote:
=
Hi Martin,

This one was my doing:

> Sec 4.1 =E2=80=9CIn order to maximize reuse of existing mechanisms, De= tNet-aware
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 applications and end systems SHOULD NOT mix DetNet and no= n-DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 traffic within a single 5-tuple.=E2=80=9C
>
> I don=E2=80=99t understand this. What=E2=80=99s the point of having a = 6-tuple if you can=E2=80=99t keep
> 5 constant and vary the DSCP?

That's not what the text recommends.

The recommendation is that any 5-tuple be all-DetNet or all-non-DetNet.=C2= =A0 That enables DetNet to use 6-tuples for its own purposes and better coe= xist with existing tools and practices that deal with 5-tuples.=C2=A0 At it= s core, Diffserv is a 5-tuple architecture.

Thanks, --David

> -----Original Message-----
> From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Martin Duke via Datatr= acker
> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:14 AM
> To: The IESG
> Cc: eagros@dolby= .com; detnet@ietf.= org; draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org; detnet-
> chairs@ietf.org
> Subject: [Detnet] Martin Duke's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-= ip-06: (with
> COMMENT)
>
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
>
> Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all = email
> addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this intr= oductory
> paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/i= esg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie= tf-detnet-ip/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
>
> Thank you for addressing most of the extensive tsvart comments.
>
> Sec 3 says DetNet might alter the DSCPs. Sec 7 says =E2=80=9C From a d= ata plane perspective
> this document does not add or modify any header information.=E2=80=9D = These appear to be
> in contradiction.
>
> Sec 4.1 =E2=80=9CIn order to maximize reuse of existing mechanisms, De= tNet-aware
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 applications and end systems SHOULD NOT mix DetNet and no= n-DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 traffic within a single 5-tuple.=E2=80=9C
>
> I don=E2=80=99t understand this. What=E2=80=99s the point of having a = 6-tuple if you can=E2=80=99t keep
> 5 constant and vary the DSCP?
>
> Sec 5.2 discourages the use of =E2=80=9Cmultiple paths.=E2=80=9D But F= igure 4 clearly shows packets
> taking multiple paths to the destination.
>
> Nit:
> Sec 5.1 s/end systems/end system
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
--00000000000014fd0605a84f9c22-- From nobody Wed Jun 17 16:05:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ED893A0AB0 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 16:05:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ykPh6juvANA7 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 16:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy5-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy5-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [67.222.38.55]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB4903A0C85 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 16:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw12.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.12]) by gproxy5.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F19C1405DA for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:05:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id lh7Zjrm4jN8Arlh7ZjozBh; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:05:29 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=bZtFrtHB c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=dLZJa+xiwSxG16/P+YVxDGlgEgI=:19 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10:nop_ipv6 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10:nop_rcvd_month_year a=Vy_oeq2dmq0A:10:endurance_base64_authed_username_1 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=iLNU1ar6AAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=jsLqV8V3AAAA:8 a=8nVSmb0LY4O9BsHCyasA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10:nop_charset_2 a=mYAOWqAtFUkA:10:demote_hacked_domain_1 a=1dbGxDndw2gA:10:demote_hacked_domain_7 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=bk-UTYQalfFGV8nXxZYA:9 a=IgQKFuUJ-q84HDO2:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10:nop_html a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 a=ugk2N6kDtXxT1k6o-wp-:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From: References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID :Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To: Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe :List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=bTVlrLQu2Wf4iVBRuHbk6sGOOraenfG68FmLEcY1EAo=; b=v/kN1BrGUkBu6uKOtgeUcK7fb2 9NFNq1gUuWQTOBsEWHQU99148TrIngxhZzUJzjC5IJWPa2oq8gswqNP80/MUZRwQatTKi70X2DieK XlSC2FIRFjjuC8Y4yOH2/QBFo; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=14865 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1jlh7Z-003j3O-11; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:05:29 -0600 To: Martin Duke , "Black, David" Cc: "eagros@dolby.com" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org" , The IESG , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" References: <159228445891.12118.5745453175295114952@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:05:26 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1BB74CB2B6F22F421CA02D40" Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1jlh7Z-003j3O-11 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:14865 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 4 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Martin Duke's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 23:05:34 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1BB74CB2B6F22F421CA02D40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/17/2020 6:59 PM, Martin Duke wrote: > I don't follow. Is there a reason that two flows couldn't share a > 5-tuple, but with different DSCPs and one of them gets DetNet handling? This is possible, but as david says, not recommended. Lou > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 6:37 AM Black, David > wrote: > > Hi Martin, > > This one was my doing: > > > Sec 4.1 “In order to maximize reuse of existing mechanisms, > DetNet-aware > >    applications and end systems SHOULD NOT mix DetNet and non-DetNet > >    traffic within a single 5-tuple.“ > > > > I don’t understand this. What’s the point of having a 6-tuple if > you can’t keep > > 5 constant and vary the DSCP? > > That's not what the text recommends. > > The recommendation is that any 5-tuple be all-DetNet or > all-non-DetNet.  That enables DetNet to use 6-tuples for its own > purposes and better coexist with existing tools and practices that > deal with 5-tuples.  At its core, Diffserv is a 5-tuple architecture. > > Thanks, --David > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: detnet > On Behalf Of Martin Duke via > Datatracker > > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:14 AM > > To: The IESG > > Cc: eagros@dolby..com ; detnet@ietf.org > ; draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org > ; detnet- > > chairs@ietf.org > > Subject: [Detnet] Martin Duke's No Objection on > draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with > > COMMENT) > > > > > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > > > Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for > > draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply > to all email > > addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut > this introductory > > paragraph, however.) > > > > > > Please refer to > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > COMMENT: > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Thank you for addressing most of the extensive tsvart comments. > > > > Sec 3 says DetNet might alter the DSCPs. Sec 7 says “ From a > data plane perspective > > this document does not add or modify any header information.†> These appear to be > > in contradiction. > > > > Sec 4.1 “In order to maximize reuse of existing mechanisms, > DetNet-aware > >    applications and end systems SHOULD NOT mix DetNet and non-DetNet > >    traffic within a single 5-tuple.“ > > > > I don’t understand this. What’s the point of having a 6-tuple if > you can’t keep > > 5 constant and vary the DSCP? > > > > Sec 5.2 discourages the use of “multiple paths.†But Figure 4 > clearly shows packets > > taking multiple paths to the destination. > > > > Nit: > > Sec 5.1 s/end systems/end system > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet --------------1BB74CB2B6F22F421CA02D40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 6/17/2020 6:59 PM, Martin Duke wrote:
I don't follow. Is there a reason that two flows couldn't share a 5-tuple, but with different DSCPs and one of them gets DetNet handling?

This is possible, but as david says, not recommended.

Lou


On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 6:37 AM Black, David <David.Black@dell.com> wrote:
Hi Martin,

This one was my doing:

> Sec 4.1 “In order to maximize reuse of existing mechanisms, DetNet-aware
>    applications and end systems SHOULD NOT mix DetNet and non-DetNet
>    traffic within a single 5-tuple.“
>
> I don’t understand this. What’s the point of having a 6-tuple if you can’t keep
> 5 constant and vary the DSCP?

That's not what the text recommends.

The recommendation is that any 5-tuple be all-DetNet or all-non-DetNet.  That enables DetNet to use 6-tuples for its own purposes and better coexist with existing tools and practices that deal with 5-tuples.  At its core, Diffserv is a 5-tuple architecture.

Thanks, --David

> -----Original Message-----
> From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Martin Duke via Datatracker
> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:14 AM
> To: The IESG
> Cc: eagros@dolby..com; detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org; detnet-
> chairs@ietf.org
> Subject: [Detnet] Martin Duke's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with
> COMMENT)
>
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
>
> Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email
> addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory
> paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Thank you for addressing most of the extensive tsvart comments.
>
> Sec 3 says DetNet might alter the DSCPs. Sec 7 says “ From a data plane perspective
> this document does not add or modify any header information.†These appear to be
> in contradiction.
>
> Sec 4.1 “In order to maximize reuse of existing mechanisms, DetNet-aware
>    applications and end systems SHOULD NOT mix DetNet and non-DetNet
>    traffic within a single 5-tuple.“
>
> I don’t understand this. What’s the point of having a 6-tuple if you can’t keep
> 5 constant and vary the DSCP?
>
> Sec 5.2 discourages the use of “multiple paths.†But Figure 4 clearly shows packets
> taking multiple paths to the destination.
>
> Nit:
> Sec 5.1 s/end systems/end system
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
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Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:06:06 +0000 From: "Black, David" To: Lou Berger , Martin Duke CC: "eagros@dolby.com" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org" , The IESG , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "Black, David" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] Martin Duke's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHWQ50JPF8L5iH6TE+5+/5gE2Jdv6jbPjwAgAIwWgCAAAHCAIAA6VUA Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:06:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: <159228445891.12118.5745453175295114952@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_17cb76b2-10b8-4fe1-93d4-2202842406cd_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_17cb76b2-10b8-4fe1-93d4-2202842406cd_SiteId=945c199a-83a2-4e80-9f8c-5a91be5752dd; MSIP_Label_17cb76b2-10b8-4fe1-93d4-2202842406cd_Owner=david.black@emc.com; MSIP_Label_17cb76b2-10b8-4fe1-93d4-2202842406cd_SetDate=2020-06-18T13:06:01.7655198Z; MSIP_Label_17cb76b2-10b8-4fe1-93d4-2202842406cd_Name=External Public; 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Subject: Re: [Detnet] Martin Duke's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:06:15 -0000 --_000_MN2PR19MB404586240A32CF63462D8486839B0MN2PR19MB4045namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 KzEg4oCTIGV4aXN0aW5nIHRvb2xzIGFyZSBvZnRlbiA1LXR1cGxlIGZvY3VzZWQsIHNvIHNwbGl0 dGluZyBhIDUtdHVwbGUgYmV0d2VlbiBEZXROZXQgYW5kIG5vbi1EZXROZXQgdHJhZmZpYy9mbG93 cyBpbnZpdGVzIHNvbWUg4oCcaW50ZXJlc3RpbmfigJ0gYmVoYXZpb3IgZnJvbSBub24tRGV0TmV0 LWF3YXJlIHRvb2xzIHRoYXQgdGhpbmsgYSA1LXR1cGxlIGlzIG9uZSBmbG93Lg0KDQpUaGFua3Ms IC0tRGF2aWQNCg0KRnJvbTogTG91IEJlcmdlciA8bGJlcmdlckBsYWJuLm5ldD4NClNlbnQ6IFdl ZG5lc2RheSwgSnVuZSAxNywgMjAyMCA3OjA1IFBNDQpUbzogTWFydGluIER1a2U7IEJsYWNrLCBE 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h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qfgx5kcorqEJA6DlnRolwvPlxfceEwwtZKYCqd/WZqE=; b=RU2nV/wFWzzA7pYSEWaomUaFd6ks0gRT1D78MRDFtQk6IyYZIxD/dAqU6qONosd1Gz jcVU653r6v33Zeyd6K47clM8jfop4pEh1TsJqT0FH1BbWPmouXqLZZijqAzgl4ZWEb3d HBuhS7T4VvzSO5JKpVNlmp0sbFBY5liYPSIMoeDsgLPaYLp1pvROFSbxjMowfH6tcSbl 2exwLid1MhBaMcCEKLcFXuUIYsgzdURuLhLfGQ385fVQB7nBliXK7m7iQ0mjPlpYdblM g8UgAhAQZRAaraLLaRNtkm1Sg6Wk7vbVEyc4tDAPLnggeuw4vZyXxuXOOVBF5q2Qh0oN xWpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qfgx5kcorqEJA6DlnRolwvPlxfceEwwtZKYCqd/WZqE=; b=egHxGDYIHkcw9EtnVYZj57KO8hQONHM41BIujE9v2CbeZ73Q7vi05kdwcVUJ5QX/in gdwclWIrF6XursbFIJw+IEFswvoy+4E2hBv8Q4fKsyS5FKnWNhI5AagOBdxjdfraqFQb buOru60Wo5MX1B9eDs6/DVsqyOx1oHQdAKvEgqpuEgvY0+gWCgTbLjJoeEwSnBWQVs+i wg7ql02Vn9OgBz9rLptCauBObJUC43zV+Vn/rR7eTZouL+kWsMqvni2MtuAaT+yPZTkF qYjbNksNWNtrlwPHS6MIogWmUuDuJvijmJ9uy9Wteiob3y5BZd8ItOdbSg9Qiuq0qJVY zjEA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532aLBpmAe49XjktYTpI5Efx2OKKMoGSk0EYwOnHMoz3PNeYjzTf 3tEc1LrntkYb2f+iOXUqMlh5FolryKnYSqCY0JxlVFV7 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzzWz+0+BqrQRHJI2MDQtm+R7STywZoAvV9J6qBVpx10CPRJzT0qiGYAj9Yhp0IXFtHhy37/EU2PBY+/Smblo4= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:9a13:: with SMTP id s19mr5978673iol.20.1592594452073; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:20:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159228445891.12118.5745453175295114952@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Martin Duke Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:20:41 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Black, David" Cc: Lou Berger , "eagros@dolby.com" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org" , The IESG , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009651f405a874ca79" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Martin Duke's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 19:20:57 -0000 --0000000000009651f405a874ca79 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alright, sounds good to me. On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 6:06 AM Black, David wrote: > +1 =E2=80=93 existing tools are often 5-tuple focused, so splitting a 5-t= uple > between DetNet and non-DetNet traffic/flows invites some =E2=80=9Cinteres= ting=E2=80=9D > behavior from non-DetNet-aware tools that think a 5-tuple is one flow. > > > > Thanks, --David > > > > *From:* Lou Berger > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 17, 2020 7:05 PM > *To:* Martin Duke; Black, David > *Cc:* eagros@dolby.com; detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org; > The IESG; detnet-chairs@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] Martin Duke's No Objection on > draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with COMMENT) > > > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > > > On 6/17/2020 6:59 PM, Martin Duke wrote: > > I don't follow. Is there a reason that two flows couldn't share a 5-tuple= , > but with different DSCPs and one of them gets DetNet handling? > > This is possible, but as david says, not recommended. > > Lou > > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 6:37 AM Black, David wrote= : > > Hi Martin, > > This one was my doing: > > > Sec 4.1 =E2=80=9CIn order to maximize reuse of existing mechanisms, Det= Net-aware > > applications and end systems SHOULD NOT mix DetNet and non-DetNet > > traffic within a single 5-tuple.=E2=80=9C > > > > I don=E2=80=99t understand this. What=E2=80=99s the point of having a 6= -tuple if you > can=E2=80=99t keep > > 5 constant and vary the DSCP? > > That's not what the text recommends. > > The recommendation is that any 5-tuple be all-DetNet or all-non-DetNet. > That enables DetNet to use 6-tuples for its own purposes and better coexi= st > with existing tools and practices that deal with 5-tuples. At its core, > Diffserv is a 5-tuple architecture. > > Thanks, --David > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: detnet On Behalf Of Martin Duke via > Datatracker > > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:14 AM > > To: The IESG > > Cc: eagros@dolby..com ; detnet@ietf.org; > draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org; detnet- > > chairs@ietf.org > > Subject: [Detnet] Martin Duke's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06= : > (with > > COMMENT) > > > > > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > > > Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for > > draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email > > addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory > > paragraph, however.) > > > > > > Please refer to > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > COMMENT: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Thank you for addressing most of the extensive tsvart comments. > > > > Sec 3 says DetNet might alter the DSCPs. Sec 7 says =E2=80=9C From a da= ta plane > perspective > > this document does not add or modify any header information.=E2=80=9D T= hese > appear to be > > in contradiction. > > > > Sec 4.1 =E2=80=9CIn order to maximize reuse of existing mechanisms, Det= Net-aware > > applications and end systems SHOULD NOT mix DetNet and non-DetNet > > traffic within a single 5-tuple.=E2=80=9C > > > > I don=E2=80=99t understand this. What=E2=80=99s the point of having a 6= -tuple if you > can=E2=80=99t keep > > 5 constant and vary the DSCP? > > > > Sec 5.2 discourages the use of =E2=80=9Cmultiple paths.=E2=80=9D But Fi= gure 4 clearly > shows packets > > taking multiple paths to the destination. > > > > Nit: > > Sec 5.1 s/end systems/end system > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > --0000000000009651f405a874ca79 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Alright, sounds good to me.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 6:06 AM= Black, David <David.Black@dell.= com> wrote:

+1 =E2=80=93 ex= isting tools are often 5-tuple focused, so splitting a 5-tuple between DetN= et and non-DetNet traffic/flows invites some =E2=80=9Cinteresting=E2=80=9D = behavior from non-DetNet-aware tools that think a 5-tuple is one flow.

=C2=A0

Thanks, --David=

=C2=A0

From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 7:05 PM
To: Martin Duke; Black, David
Cc: eagros@dol= by.com; detnet@iet= f.org; draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org; The IESG; detnet-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] Martin Duke's No Objection on draft-ietf-d= etnet-ip-06: (with COMMENT)

=C2=A0

[EXTERNAL EMAIL]

=C2=A0

On 6/17/2020 6:59 PM, Martin Duke wrote:

I don't follow. Is there a reason that two flows= couldn't share a 5-tuple, but with different DSCPs and one of them get= s DetNet handling?

This is possible, but as david says, not recommended.

Lou

=C2=A0

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 6:37 AM Black, David <David.Black@dell.com= > wrote:

Hi Martin,

This one was my doing:

> Sec 4.1 =E2=80=9CIn order to maximize reuse of existing mechanisms, De= tNet-aware
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 applications and end systems SHOULD NOT mix DetNet and no= n-DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 traffic within a single 5-tuple.=E2=80=9C
>
> I don=E2=80=99t understand this. What=E2=80=99s the point of having a = 6-tuple if you can=E2=80=99t keep
> 5 constant and vary the DSCP?

That's not what the text recommends.

The recommendation is that any 5-tuple be all-DetNet or all-non-DetNet.=C2= =A0 That enables DetNet to use 6-tuples for its own purposes and better coe= xist with existing tools and practices that deal with 5-tuples.=C2=A0 At it= s core, Diffserv is a 5-tuple architecture.

Thanks, --David

> -----Original Message-----
> From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Martin Duke via Datatr= acker
> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:14 AM
> To: The IESG
> Cc: eagros@dolby= ..com; detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org; detnet-
> chairs@ietf.org
> Subject: [Detnet] Martin Duke's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-= ip-06: (with
> COMMENT)
>
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
>
> Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all = email
> addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this intr= oductory
> paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
>
> Thank you for addressing most of the extensive tsvart comments.
>
> Sec 3 says DetNet might alter the DSCPs. Sec 7 says =E2=80=9C From a d= ata plane perspective
> this document does not add or modify any header information.=E2=80=9D = These appear to be
> in contradiction.
>
> Sec 4.1 =E2=80=9CIn order to maximize reuse of existing mechanisms, De= tNet-aware
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 applications and end systems SHOULD NOT mix DetNet and no= n-DetNet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 traffic within a single 5-tuple.=E2=80=9C
>
> I don=E2=80=99t understand this. What=E2=80=99s the point of having a = 6-tuple if you can=E2=80=99t keep
> 5 constant and vary the DSCP?
>
> Sec 5.2 discourages the use of =E2=80=9Cmultiple paths.=E2=80=9D But F= igure 4 clearly shows packets
> taking multiple paths to the destination.
>
> Nit:
> Sec 5.1 s/end systems/end system
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet



_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
--0000000000009651f405a874ca79-- From nobody Sat Jun 20 12:56:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D3183A0942; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 12:56:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Murray Kucherawy via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.3.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Murray Kucherawy Message-ID: <159268298721.20554.4048287257566470741@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 12:56:27 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Murray Kucherawy's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 19:56:28 -0000 Murray Kucherawy has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Just a pile of nits here: Section 1: * "... defined to support IP flows, instead ..." -- "instead" should start a new sentence, or at least the comma should be a semi-colon * "... data plane in Section 3, considerations that ..." -- add "and" before "considerations" Section 3: * The parentheses in the second paragraph are unbalanced. * "Same can be valid for flow aggregates." -- To what does "Same" refer? * "In such cases using smaller tuples are appropriate." -- s/are/is/ * "... forwarded unmodified, however ..." -- "however" should start a new sentence, or at least the comma should be a semi-colon * "Note, that Figure 1 and ..." -- remove the comma * "TSN over MPLS is discribed in ..." -- s/discribed/described/ Section 4.1: * "... treatment on the connected sub-network, see ..." -- the comma should be a semi-colon, or the references should be in parentheses, etc. Section 4.2: * "... the underlying link / sub net specific ..." -- suggest "link/sub-network", if I'm reading the rest of this right (just to match other text, and tighten up the spaces) * Some places in this section use "end-to-end", some use "end to end". I'm not sure which is correct, but in any case the document should be consistent. * "... link / sub-network ..." -- same point as before, twice more * ""R" and "E" denotes replication ..." -- s/denotes/denote/ Section 4.3.2: * "... subject of a completed reservation, can disrupt ..." -- remove the comma * "Remarking packets ..." -- this should be "Re-marking" (two instances) Section 4.3.3: * "... when a single 5-tuple application flow experience reordering ..." -- s/experience/experiences/ Section 4.4: * "... flows can be aggregated using any of the 6-tuple, ..." -- I can't quite parse this. Do you mean "any subset of the elements of the 6-tuple"? OLD: It is the responsibility of the DetNet controller plane to properly provision the use of these aggregation mechanisms. This includes ensuring that aggregated flows have compatible e.g., the same or very similar QoS and/or CoS characteristics, see Section 4.3.2. It also includes ensuring that per component-flow service requirements are satisfied by the aggregate, see Section 5.3. NEW: It is the responsibility of the DetNet controller plane to properly provision the use of these aggregation mechanisms. This includes ensuring that aggregated flows have compatible (e.g., the same or very similar) QoS and/or CoS characteristics, per Section 4.3.2. It also includes ensuring that per component-flow service requirements are satisfied by the aggregate, per Section 5.3. Section 5: * "... Traffic classification, for example ..." -- that should be a semi-colon, or start a new sentence Section 5.1: * "Note, that additional ..." -- remove comma Section 5.1.1.1: * "... prefix matching for this field, see ..." -- parenthesize the "see" clause, or maybe change "see" to "per" Section 5.1.1.2: * Same issue with the tacked-on "see" and references. * "Note: any IP address ..." -- capitalize "any" Section 5.1.1.3: * "Other, non-zero values, MUST be ..." -- remove the commas Section 6: * "When used, can be used ..." -- suggest "When used, the field can be used ..." * "Exact and wildcard matching is required." (two instances) -- suggest "Support for both exact and wildcard matching is required." Section 7: * "... through whatever means is provided by the ..." -- s/is/are/ From nobody Mon Jun 22 01:29:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27293A0BA9 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 01:29:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MISSING_MIMEOLE=1.899, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=dooray.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oCO8M7pJT3ri for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 01:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mscreen.etri.re.kr (mscreen.etri.re.kr [129.254.9.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32FE53A0BA8 for ; 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boundary="----=_Part_147799_1029488741.1592814555931" X-Dsn-Request: true Importance: Normal X-Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal To: DetNet WG Cc: DetNet Chairs , "draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.authors@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 17:29:16 +0900 (KST) Sender: ryoo@etri.re.kr Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Issue on supporting PREOF in DetNet MPLS X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 08:29:23 -0000 ------=_Part_147799_1029488741.1592814555931 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksIGFsbC4KCkR1cmluZyB0aGUgV0cgdmlydHVhbCBpbnRlcmltIG1lZXRpbmcgaW4gSnVuZSAx MSwgd2UgZGlzY3Vzc2VkIHdoYXQgbGV2ZWwgb2YgY2hhbmdlIHdvdWxkIGJlIG5lZWRlZCB0byBy ZXNvbHZlIHRoZSBpc3N1ZSBvbiBzdXBwb3J0aW5nIFBSRU9GIGluIHRoZSBEZXROZXQgTVBMUyBk YXRhIHBsYW5lIGRyYWZ0LCBhbmQgZGVjaWRlZCB0byBzdGFydCB3aXRoIGNoYXJpZnlpbmcgdGV4 dC4gVGhlIGlzc3VlIHdhcyBvcmlnaW5hbGx5IHJhaXNlZCB0byBjbGFyaWZ5IGhvdyBEZXROZXQg TVBMUyBkYXRhIHBsYW5lIGNhbiBzdXBwb3J0IEZpZ3VyZSAxIG9mIFJGQyA4NjU1LiBTZWUgaHR0 cHM6Ly9tYWlsYXJjaGl2ZS5pZXRmLm9yZy9hcmNoL2Jyb3dzZS9kZXRuZXQvP3E9RlJFT0YgaHR0 cHM6Ly9tYWlsYXJjaGl2ZS5pZXRmLm9yZy9hcmNoL2Jyb3dzZS9kZXRuZXQvP3E9RlJFT0YgZm9y IHRoZSBlbWFpbCBkaXNjdXNzaW9uLiBBY2NvcmRpbmcgdG8gdGhlIG1pbnV0ZXMsIGh0dHBzOi8v ZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcvZG9jL21pbnV0ZXMtaW50ZXJpbS0yMDIwLWRldG5ldC0wMS0y MDIwMDYxMTA5MDAvIGh0dHBzOi8vZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcvZG9jL21pbnV0ZXMtaW50 ZXJpbS0yMDIwLWRldG5ldC0wMS0yMDIwMDYxMTA5MDAvLCB0aGUgb3B0aW9ucyBhcmUmbmJzcDth cyBmb2xsb3dzOgpPcHRpb24gMTogY2xhcmlmeSBkb2N1bWVudCAtLSBpLmUuLCBubyBkYXRhIHBs YW5lIGNoYW5nZQpPcHRpb24gMjogbW9kaWZ5IGRhdGEtcGxhbmUgYmVoYXZpb3IgdG8gYWxsb3cg ZWRnZSBvciByZWxheSB0byBzZW5kIGRpZmZlcmVudCBzLWxhYmVscyAob24gZGlmZmVyZW50IG1l bWJlciBmbG93cykgZm9yIHNhbWUgc2VydmljZS4KCkFzc3VtaW5nIHRoZSB0ZXh0IHRoYXQgQmFs YXpzIGFncmVlZCB0byBjaGFuZ2UgZm9yIFNlY3Rpb25zIDQuNS4xIGFuZCA0LjUuMiBpcyBpbiBw bGFjZSwgSSBkb24ndCBoYXZlIGFueSBhZGRpdGlvbmFsIHRleHQgdG8gcHJvcG9zZSBmb3IgT3B0 aW9uIDEuCgpJZiBPcHRpb24gMSBzaG91bGQgYmUgY2hvc2VuLCB3ZSBuZWVkIHRvIGJlIGF3YXJl IG9mIHRoYXQgdGhlIHNhbWUgUy1MYWJlbCBuZWVkcyB0byBiZSB1c2VkIGZvciBhIHNpbmdsZSBz ZXJ2aWNlIGluIGEgd2hvbGUgRGV0TmV0IGRvbWFpbi4gSWYgUy1MYWJlbHMgaGF2ZSB0byBiZSBk ZXRlcm1pbmVkIHdpdGhpbiB0aGUgc2NvcGUgb2YgZWFjaCBEZXROZXQgZWdyZXNzIGVkZ2Ugbm9k ZSdzIGxhYmVsIHNwYWNlLCB0aGVuIG9uZSBGLUxhYmVsIG11c3QgYmUgdXNlZCBhbmQgdGhlIEYt TGFiZWwgdmFsdWVzIHNob3VsZCBiZSBjaG9zZW4gaW4gYSB3YXkgdGhhdCB0d28gZGlmZmVyZW50 IHNlcnZpY2VzIHdpdGggdGhlIHNhbWUgUy1MYWJlbCBjYW4gYmUgZGlzdGluZ3Vpc2hlZCBpbiBh IERldE5ldCByZWxheSBub2RlIGV2ZW4gaWYgdGhlIFMtTGFiZWxzIGFyZSBhc3NpZ25lZCBwZXIg cGxhZm9ybSBsYWJlbCBzcGFjZS4gSW4gb3RoZXIgd29yZHMsIHRoZSB2YWx1ZXMgb2YgRi1MYWJl bHMgY2Fubm90IGJlIGFzc2lnbmVkIGluZGVwZW5kZW50bHkgZnJvbSB0aGUgUy1MYWJlbCB2YWx1 ZXMuIFRoaXMgZXh0cmEgY29uc2lkZXJhdGlvbiBpbiBuZXR3b3JrIGNvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb24gZG9l cyBub3QgZXhpc3QgaW4gTVMtUFcsIG9uIHdoaWNoIERldE5ldCBNUExTIHNvbHV0aW9uIGlzIGJh c2VkLiZuYnNwOwoKRm9yIG9wdGlvbiAyLCBhcyB3ZSBoYXZlJm5ic3A7ZGlzY3Vzc2VkIGluIHRo ZSBsaXN0LCBJIHByb3Bvc2UgdG8gYWRkIHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmcgdGV4dDoKSWYgYW4gZWRnZSBu b2RlIG9yIGEgcmVsYXkgbm9kZSBwZXJmb3JtcyByZXBsaWNhdGlvbiB0aGVyZSB3aWxsIGJlIG11 bHRpcGxlIG91dGdvaW5nIERldE5ldCBtZW1iZXIgZmxvd3MuJm5ic3A7CklmIHRoZXNlIG1lbWJl ciBmbG93cyBoYXZlIHNlcGFyYXRlIOKAnHJlY2VpdmVyc+KAnSB0aGVpciBTLWxhYmVsJm5ic3A7 dmFsdWVzCm1heSBiZSBkaWZmZXJlbnQuIExhYmVsIGFsbG9jYXRpb24gc29sdXRpb25zIGFyZSBv dXQtb2Ytc2NvcGUgaW4gdGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudC4iCgpCZXN0IHJlZ2FyZHMsCgpKZW9uZy1kb25n CgoK ------=_Part_147799_1029488741.1592814555931 Content-Type: text/html; 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Mon, 22 Jun 2020 11:51:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Roman Danyliw via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman , eagros@dolby.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.3.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roman Danyliw Message-ID: <159285187260.32738.2496766777836008651@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 11:51:13 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 18:51:13 -0000 Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- A few easy clarifications: ** Section 7. Per “From a data plane perspective this document does not add or modify any header informationâ€, this statement, which is also found in Section 9.1 of draft-ietf-detnet-security-10 does not seem consistent with Section 3 which states “… however modification of these fields is allowed, for example changing the DSCP value, when required by the DetNet serviceâ€. ** Section 7. RFC8655 reminds us that “Security considerations for DetNet are constrained (compared to, for example, the open Internet) because DetNet is defined to operate only within a single administrative domainâ€. However, the only IP-specific guidance on preventing escape from the DetNet domain is in Section 4.2 (“Note that not mixing DetNet and non-DetNet traffic within a single 5-tuple, as described above, enables simpler 5-tuple filters to be used (or re-used) at the edges of a DetNet network to prevent non-congestion-responsive DetNet traffic from escaping the DetNet domain.â€). Please provide more prescriptive guidance in this section. ** Section 7. The guidance from RFC8655 and draft-ietf-detnet-security needs to be deconflicted relative to confidentiality. The following assertions are stated in a single paragraph: (a) The primary considerations for the data plane is to maintain integrity of data and delivery of the associated DetNet service traversing the DetNet network. (b) Application flows can be protected through whatever means is provided by the underlying technology. For example, encryption may be used, such as that provided by IPSec [RFC4301] for IP flows and/or by an underlying sub-net using MACSec [IEEE802.1AE-2018] for IP over Ethernet (Layer-2) flows. (a) appears to be a cut-and-paste (or maybe vice versa) from Section 9 of draft-ietf-detnet-security-10 (b) appears to be a cut-and-paste from Section 5 of RFC8655. The concatenation of (a) + (b) appears to be unique to this document. When RFC8655 states (b), it prefaced with “[t]o maintain confidentiality of data traversing the DetNet, application flows can be protected through whatever means is provided by the underlying technology.†(a) makes no references to confidentiality. It seems like it should. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for responding to the SECDIR review (and thank you Tero for doing it). ** Section 3. I wasn’t able to follow how the reference architectures (Figure 1 and 2) in this section had bearing on the normative behavior in Section 5 and 6. ** Section 3. Editorial. As a reader, I would have benefited from a forward reference to Section 5 somewhere in this section. As I was reading this text, I kept looking for specify in exactly which fields go into the tuple and under what circumstances. ** Section 3. Per “Same can be valid for flow aggregatesâ€, I didn’t follow what this meant. Did you mean, “The same can be true for flow aggregatesâ€, editorially? But I’m still not sure what a “flow aggregates†is in this case. ** Section 3. Per “… however modification of these fields is allowed, for example changing the DSCP value, when required by the DetNet serviceâ€, is the DSCP the only field that is permitted to be modified? Perhaps I missed it, but I didn’t see this behavior covered in the subsequent guidance (i.e., outside of this overview) -- see related DISCUSS above. ** Section 4. Per “This section provides informative considerations …â€, is that the same thing as saying this entire section is not normative? If so, I was surprised by the use of RFC2119 language in this section. ** Section 4.2. Per “Note that not mixing DetNet and non-DetNet traffic within a single 5-tupleâ€, how does one do flow identification if such mixing is done? ** Section 4.3.1. Is there a pointer that can be provided to explain how DetNet nodes are to “ensure that the CoS service classes do not impact the congestion protection and latency control mechanisms used to provide DetNet QoS?†** Section 5.1.2.2. Per “DetNet flow identification for ICMP is achieved based on the protocol’s headerâ€, I recommend being precise by explicitly saying which protocol header field and which value (just as was done in for TCP, UDP and IPSec.). ** Section 7. It wasn’t clear to me which security consideration mentioned here were specific to a DetNet data plane when IP is used for the forwarding sub-layer. I have no issues restating key considerations, but this write-up was generic. From nobody Mon Jun 22 12:04:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA3F13A07ED; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 12:04:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tMxjRQrHh0js; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 12:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from taper.sei.cmu.edu (taper.sei.cmu.edu [147.72.252.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher 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(147.72.252.46) by CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu (10.64.28.249) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.487.0; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 15:04:26 -0400 Received: from MORRIS.ad.sei.cmu.edu (147.72.252.46) by MORRIS.ad.sei.cmu.edu (147.72.252.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1979.3; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 15:04:26 -0400 Received: from MORRIS.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([fe80::555b:9498:552e:d1bb]) by MORRIS.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([fe80::555b:9498:552e:d1bb%13]) with mapi id 15.01.1979.003; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 15:04:26 -0400 From: Roman Danyliw To: Lou Berger , Tero Kivinen CC: "secdir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-ip.all@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Last-Call] [Detnet] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-ip-05 Thread-Index: AQHV/FgU6yNXjiXHQkqdZIhnu7Wdo6jlljyQ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 19:04:25 +0000 Message-ID: References: <158406212471.18347.14473548719649982992@ietfa.amsl.com> <57456b4d-79a4-191a-8e25-7a2d2157f5d8@labn.net> <24176.45003.478503.30942@fireball.acr.fi> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.202.179] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Last-Call] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-ip-05 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 19:04:37 -0000 SGkgVGVybywgdGhhbmsgeW91IGZvciB0aGlzIHJldmlldy4gIA0KDQpIaSBMb3UsIHRoYW5rIHlv dSBmb3IgaW5jb3Jwb3JhdGluZyB0aGUgZmVlZGJhY2sgLTA2DQoNCkkgZm91bmQgYSBmZXcgcGxh Y2VzIHdoZXJlIHRoZSBzZWN1cml0eSBjb25zaWRlcmF0aW9ucyB3b3VsZCBiZW5lZml0IGZyb20g cmVmaW5lbWVudCBzbyBJIGJhbGxvdGVkIHdpdGggYSBEaXNjdXNzLg0KDQpSZWdhcmRzLA0KUm9t 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aWNhdGlvbiBvbmx5LCBidXQgbm8gZW5jcnlwdGlvbiwgYXMgdGhleSBkbyB3YW50IHRvIGxvb2sg aW5zaWRlDQo+ID4gdGhlIHBhY2tldHMuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBVRFAgZW5jYXBzdWxhdGVkIElQc2Vj IGlzIHVzZWQgd2hlbiB0aGVyZSBpcyBOQVRzIGluIHBsYXksIGkuZS4sIG1vc3QNCj4gPiBvZiB0 aGUgSVBzZWMgdHJhZmZpYyBmcm9tIHJvYWR3YXJyaW9ycywgaS5lLiBsYXB0b3BzIGluIGhvdGVs cyBldGMuDQo+ID4NCj4gDQo+IC0tDQo+IGxhc3QtY2FsbCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gbGFzdC1j YWxsQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbGFz dC1jYWxsDQo= From nobody Tue Jun 23 07:05:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C48EC3A0CF5; Tue, 23 Jun 2020 07:05:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, 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X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533w2dFcttwaDtWyQw7U46kIe1cqh8pYMULYaJuzhtAjH/+aJnPf z+VY5dTtoAUgPNzLghF3HZI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyw5jkEHf5Dmj0EG+rpbiA/iwOfqNR7pVw4hOZ7jBFQspsVbxCHVQEUhGc2eiFoaTwPVKK5Kw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:2108:: with SMTP id u8mr26176714wml.189.1592921143155; Tue, 23 Jun 2020 07:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from appleton.fritz.box ([62.3.64.16]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p13sm12348094wrn.0.2020.06.23.07.05.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Jun 2020 07:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F8297C5D-B6D4-4F0E-921A-2CF2ACC7F4ED" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Stewart Bryant X-Priority: Normal In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 15:05:40 +0100 Cc: Stewart Bryant , DetNet WG , DetNet Chairs , "draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.authors@ietf.org" Message-Id: <35FC628A-0DC8-40FD-820E-F2905E15CD78@gmail.com> References: To: Jeong-dong Ryoo X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Issue on supporting PREOF in DetNet MPLS X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 14:05:47 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F8297C5D-B6D4-4F0E-921A-2CF2ACC7F4ED Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 If we are following the old MS-PW design, which I think was the original = intent, a DetNet node would change the S label to the S label that the = receiving DetNet node was expecting. Thus if a packet was sent to node = A, then sent on to node B and C, it would arrive at node A with Sa and = leave with Sb and Sc respectively. That dramatically simplifies the h/w = changes since it is normal in MPLS for the receiver to set the value of = the label and set the processing vector accordingly. Since the sender = has to so a re-write and is geared up to write multiple labels in most = chip sets it should be no problem for the hardware to do this. The MPLS architecture takes the view that in the data plan the semantics = of a label are unknown and are only resolved to the intended semantic in = the receiver through a mapping provided by the control plane. Therefore it seems right to me that we should swap the S label at the = DetNet processing node and that the outgoing label should the one = requested by the receiver. Stewart > On 22 Jun 2020, at 09:29, Jeong-dong Ryoo wrote: >=20 > Hi, all. >=20 > During the WG virtual interim meeting in June 11, we discussed what = level of change would be needed to resolve the issue on supporting PREOF = in the DetNet MPLS data plane draft, and decided to start with = charifying text. The issue was originally raised to clarify how DetNet = MPLS data plane can support Figure 1 of RFC 8655. See = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/detnet/?q=3DFREOF = for the = email discussion. According to the minutes, = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-interim-2020-detnet-01-2020061109= 00/ = , the options are as follows: > Option 1: clarify document -- i.e., no data plane change > Option 2: modify data-plane behavior to allow edge or relay to send = different s-labels (on different member flows) for same service. >=20 > Assuming the text that Balazs agreed to change for Sections 4.5.1 and = 4.5.2 is in place, I don't have any additional text to propose for = Option 1. >=20 > If Option 1 should be chosen, we need to be aware of that the same = S-Label needs to be used for a single service in a whole DetNet domain. = If S-Labels have to be determined within the scope of each DetNet egress = edge node's label space, then one F-Label must be used and the F-Label = values should be chosen in a way that two different services with the = same S-Label can be distinguished in a DetNet relay node even if the = S-Labels are assigned per plaform label space. In other words, the = values of F-Labels cannot be assigned independently from the S-Label = values. This extra consideration in network configuration does not exist = in MS-PW, on which DetNet MPLS solution is based.=20 >=20 > For option 2, as we have discussed in the list, I propose to add the = following text: > If an edge node or a relay node performs replication there will be = multiple outgoing DetNet member flows.=20 > If these member flows have separate =E2=80=9Creceivers=E2=80=9D their = S-label values > may be different. Label allocation solutions are out-of-scope in this = document." >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > Jeong-dong >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_F8297C5D-B6D4-4F0E-921A-2CF2ACC7F4ED Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 If = we are following the old MS-PW design, which I think was the original = intent, a DetNet node would change the S label to the S label that the = receiving DetNet node was expecting. Thus if a packet was sent to node = A, then sent on to node B and C, it would arrive at node A with Sa and = leave with Sb and Sc respectively. That dramatically simplifies the h/w = changes since it is normal in MPLS for the receiver to set the value of = the label and set the processing vector accordingly. Since the sender = has to so a re-write and is geared up to write multiple labels in most = chip sets it should be no problem for the hardware to do this.

The MPLS architecture = takes the view that in the data plan the semantics of a label are = unknown and are only resolved to the intended semantic in the receiver = through a mapping provided by the control plane.

Therefore it seems right to me that we = should swap the S label at the DetNet processing node and that the = outgoing label should the one requested by the receiver.

Stewart

On 22 Jun 2020, at 09:29, Jeong-dong Ryoo <ryoo@etri.re.kr> = wrote:

Hi, all.

During the WG virtual interim meeting in June 11, we = discussed what level of change would be needed to resolve the issue on = supporting PREOF in the DetNet MPLS data plane draft, and decided to = start with charifying text. The issue was originally raised to clarify = how DetNet MPLS data plane can support Figure 1 of RFC 8655. See https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/detnet/?q=3DFREOF = for the email discussion. According to the minutes, https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-interim-2020-detnet-01= -202006110900/, the options are as follows:
Option 1: clarify document -- i.e., no data plane = change
Option 2: modify data-plane behavior to = allow edge or relay to send different s-labels (on different member = flows) for same service.

Assuming the text that Balazs agreed to change for Sections = 4.5.1 and 4.5.2 is in place, I don't have any additional text to propose = for Option 1.

If= Option 1 should be chosen, we need to be aware of that the same S-Label = needs to be used for a single service in a whole DetNet domain. If = S-Labels have to be determined within the scope of each DetNet egress = edge node's label space, then one F-Label must be used and the F-Label = values should be chosen in a way that two different services with the = same S-Label can be distinguished in a DetNet relay node even if the = S-Labels are assigned per plaform label space. In other words, the = values of F-Labels cannot be assigned independently from the S-Label = values. This extra consideration in network configuration does not exist = in MS-PW, on which DetNet MPLS solution is based. 

For option 2, as we = have discussed in the list, I propose to add the following = text:
If an edge = node or a relay node performs replication there will be multiple = outgoing DetNet member flows. 
If these member flows have separate =E2=80=9Creceivers=E2=80=9D= their S-label values
may be different. Label allocation solutions are out-of-scope = in this document."

Best regards,

Jeong-dong



= --Apple-Mail=_F8297C5D-B6D4-4F0E-921A-2CF2ACC7F4ED-- From nobody Tue Jun 23 08:41:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 759B33A188E; Tue, 23 Jun 2020 08:41:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Alvaro Retana via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.4.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Alvaro Retana Message-ID: <159292690639.3288.6217558507015891728@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 08:41:46 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 15:41:47 -0000 Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Several sections mandate actions to be taken where the specific mechanisms are not clearly defined. This lack of specifics leaves me at a loss about what is being mandated. Specifically: (1) §4.3.2 (Quality of Service): "Quality of Service...MUST be provided locally by the DetNet-aware hosts and routers supporting DetNet flows. The traffic control mechanisms used to deliver QoS...are expected to be defined in a future document." (2) §5.2 (Forwarding Procedures): "Specifically...SHALL use management and control information to select the one or more outgoing interfaces and next hops..." This sentence sounds very generic to me: using management and control information is what every forwarder does -- regardless of DetNet. Not only is it a generic statement, but the management and control functions are not defined... (3) §5.3 (DetNet IP Traffic Treatment Procedures): "MUST ensure that a DetNet flow receives the traffic treatment that is provisioned for it...Typical mechanisms used to provide different treatment to different flows includes the allocation of system resources...and provisioning or related parameters...Other mechanisms than the ones used in the TSN case are outside the scope of this document." It is ok to define the mechanisms in a different document -- but there are no specific references. What exactly is this document requiring (MUST)? If there are no specifics on the mechanisms (or where they are defined), how can an implementation comply with this document? What are the interoperability consequences if not all nodes comply with the same set of (undefined) mechanisms? I am balloting DISCUSS because I believe that this omission makes the specification incomplete. Adding details will satisfy my concern. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (1) §4.2 (DetNet Domain-Specific Considerations): As a general rule, DetNet IP domains need to be able to forward any DetNet flow identified by the IP 6-tuple. Doing otherwise would limit the number of 6-tuple flow ID combinations that could be used by the end systems. From a practical standpoint this means that all nodes along the end-to-end path of DetNet flows need to agree on what fields are used for flow identification. There is text in §5.1 requiring the ability to forward based on the 6-tuple...but there is nothing related to the "need to agree on what fields are used for flow identification" -- it seems to me that this agreement should also be required. §6 does say: It is the responsibility of the DetNet controller plane to properly provision both flow identification information and the flow specific resources needed to provided the traffic treatment needed to meet each flow's service requirements. This applies for aggregated and individual flows. I guess that "to properly provision" can be a standin for the "need to agree on what fields are used". I would still like to see something about the effect of not agreeing on/provisioning the information correctly/consistently. (2) §4.3.1 (Class of Service): "...DetNet nodes...MUST ensure that the CoS service classes do not impact the congestion protection and latency control mechanisms used to provide DetNet QoS." (a) What enforceable action are the DetNet nodes expected to take to comply with this statement? What does ensuring include? (b) Maybe it's just me, but I would think that the requirement is not at a node level (each node doing something), but within a DetNet domain; IOW, this sounds more like a provisioning requirement (even probably related to the text from §6 I quoted above). (3) §5.1 (DetNet IP Flow Identification Procedures): s/The configuration and control information used to identify an individual DetNet flow MUST be ordered by an implementation./An implementation MUST support ordering of the configuration and control information used to identify an individual DetNet flow. The current wording seems to imply that the implementation may order the information any way it wants...but proper identification through the domain depends on consistent ordering. (4) §5.1.1.3 (IPv4 Protocol and IPv6 Next Header Fields): Implementations of this document MUST support DetNet flow identification based on the IPv4 Protocol field when processing IPv4 packets, and the IPv6 Next Header Field when processing IPv6 packets. An implementation MUST support flow identification based on the next protocol values defined in Section 5.1.2. Other, non-zero values, MUST be used for flow identification. The first sentence represents a superset of the second: in general, using the Protocol field includes more options than just what is defined in §5.1.2. The third sentence, again, goes back to a superset: anything else except 0. BTW, 0 is the IPv6 HbH option -- do you really want to exclude it? Can that paragraph be summarized by just the first sentence? (5) "Implementations SHOULD allow for this field to be ignored for a specific DetNet flow." This sentence, or a "MUST allow" version, are used throughout the document. Is there a strong reason (that I'm obviously missing) to sometimes use SHOULD and others MUST? (6) A reference for ICMP is needed. (7) §5.1.2.2 (ICMP): "Note that ICMP type is not included in the flow definition." Does this mean that the ICMP type should not (SHOULD NOT/MUST NOT ??) be used in the flow definition? That's what the text sounds to me as saying. I found a thread in the archive [1] which talks about this sentence being added with the intention of supporting ICMP types...but even with that added context the text just sounds as if the opposite was intended. [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/wVA93y2cO2nt9ddFcDaTw-eHKK8 (8) I believe that these references should be Normative: I-D.ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework and RFC8655. (9) Editorial nits: s/uses "6-tuple" based flow identification, where 6-tuple refers to/uses 6-tuple based flow identification, where "6-tuple" refers to s/6-tuple is (destination/6-tuple is destination s/Same can be valid/The same can be valid s/using smaller tuples are appropriate/using smaller tuples is appropriate s/can communicate over DetNet IP network with IP End System./can communicate over a DetNet IP network with IP End Systems. s/from data plane perspective/from [a|the] data plane perspective s/end-system/end system/g s/multiple methods that MAY be used...including but not limited to/multiple methods that may be used...including but not limited to s/matching based on this field MUST allow for this field to be ignored/matching based on this field MUST allow for it to be ignored s/found in the [I-D.ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework]/found in [I-D.ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework]/g s/provisioning or related parameters/provisioning of related parameters From nobody Wed Jun 24 09:37:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCFB23A100F; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 09:37:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NvCYwRzOZXGk; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 09:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D31E3A100D; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 09:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 05OGatTN018497 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 24 Jun 2020 12:36:57 -0400 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 09:36:55 -0700 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Bob Briscoe Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org, draft-ietf-detnet-ip.all@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200624163655.GQ58278@kduck.mit.edu> References: <158431305121.17899.8139415906212448096@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <158431305121.17899.8139415906212448096@ietfa.amsl.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Last-Call] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-ip-05 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:37:44 -0000 Hi Bob, Thanks for the great review comments; I repeated or referred to several of them in my own review. One note on the security considerations: On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 03:57:31PM -0700, Bob Briscoe via Datatracker wrote: > > "To prevent DetNet packets > from being delayed by an entity external to a DetNet domain, DetNet > technology definition can allow for the mitigation of Man-In-The- > Middle attacks, for example through use of authentication and > authorization of devices within the DetNet domain." > Eh? What does mitigation of MITM attacks mean? Either they're prevented or > they're not. Mitigated implies just slightly prevented. How does mitigation > of MITM attacks prevent delay? Seems a rather big jump. I believe this language is mostly copied from RFC 8655, and was added there at my suggestion. My understanding is that MITM attacks from non-DetNet entities are prevented, but if there is a malicious device that has credentials authorized to participate in the DetNet domain (e.g., a compromised router), MITM attacks by that device are not prevented. This is perhaps also in the context of the DetNet threat model being intrinsically different from the normal BCP 72 one, since a BCP 72 attacker can just drop all traffic and induce failure of the DetNet goals. So in order to have anything meaningful to say we are forced to consider a weaker attacker that is, e.g., only on some parts of the network or does not have full control over all devices not explicitly trusted. -Ben From nobody Wed Jun 24 09:39:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C5A73A1036; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 09:39:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman , eagros@dolby.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.4.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Benjamin Kaduk Message-ID: <159301678986.2590.8134865738524436704@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 09:39:49 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:39:50 -0000 Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The other ADs caught a bunch of editorial stuff that I'll try to not duplicate, though I do list a bunch of editorial stuff as well. Section 1 and routers that provide DetNet service to IP encapsulated data. No DetNet-specific encapsulation is defined to support IP flows, instead the existing IP and higher layer protocol header information is used to support flow identification and DetNet service delivery. Common nit: comma splice This document provides an overview of the DetNet IP data plane in Section 3, considerations that apply to providing DetNet services via the DetNet IP data plane in Section 4. Section 5 provides the nit: this looks like it's trying to be a list but failing, so it's an incomplete sentence. Section 3 Do we want to have a note anywhere in here about how information about which flows are DetNet flows and what behavior(s) they get (e.g., the controller plane, or perhaps a forward reference to section 5), to remind the reader about the architecture? Non-DetNet and DetNet IP packets are identical on the wire. I suggest a different word than "identical", perhaps "indistinguishable" (or maybe "the non-DetNet and DetNet IP packet layouts") DetNet flow aggregation may be enabled via the use of wildcards, masks, lists, prefixes and ranges. IP tunnels may also be used to side note: I'd consider rewording so this doesn't sound like an exhaustive list. Figure 1 illustrates a DetNet enabled IP network. The DetNet enabled end systems originate IP encapsulated traffic that is identified within the DetNet domain as DetNet flows. Relay nodes understand the nit: I think the description of "identified" could be tightened up -- at present, one could read this as either "the DetNet ingress classifies IP traffic as DetNet or non DetNet, thus identifying the flows that are DetNet flows", or "within the DetNet domain, these flows (originated from the specific end systems) are identifiable as being DetNet flows". As non-DetNet and DetNet IP packets are identical on the wire, from data plane perspective, the only difference is that there is flow- [whatever is done for "identical" above could be done here as well] nit: missing article before "data-plane perspective" Section 4.1 IP flow identification means that DetNet must be aware of not only the format of the IP header, but also of the next protocol carried within an IP packet (see Section 5.1.1.3). The way this is written it seems to bind as "(must be aware of) (not only the format of) (the IP header) (but also of [the format of] the next protocol)", but following the reference, it seems to only require inspecting the value in the "next protocol" IP header field. There would, of course, *also* be a requirement to look into TCP/UDP headers to extract the ports needed for the 6-tuple, which is where I originally thought this was going, but given the apparent intent, my suggestion is to just s/next protocol/next protocol value/. End systems need to ensure that DetNet service requirements are met when processing packets associated to a DetNet flow. When forwarding We just said in the previous paragraph that end systems can be DetNet-unaware; how would such DetNet-unaware systems ensure that DetNet service requirements are met? packets, this means that packets are appropriately shaped on Also, are end systems going to be *forwarding* packets? I thought that it was DetNet edge nodes (and transit/relay nodes) that would do so. Section 4.2 aware. Such routers identify DetNet flows based on the IP 6-tuple, and ensure that the DetNet service required traffic treatment is provided both on the node and on any attached sub-network. nit: I suggest hyphenating the compound adjective(s?) in "DetNet service required traffic treatment" or otherwise rewording it, as I'm not entirely clear on how to parse it. This solution provides DetNet functions end to end, but does so on a per link and sub-network basis. Congestion protection and latency We should probably note that there is a single point of failure at the routers/etc. that remove and reapply these functions. Note that not mixing DetNet and non-DetNet traffic within a single 5-tuple, as described above, enables simpler 5-tuple filters to be used (or re-used) at the edges of a DetNet network to prevent non- congestion-responsive DetNet traffic from escaping the DetNet domain. I'd consider s/described/recommended/ Also, does the "simpler filters" also apply to determining what inbound traffic should receive DetNet treatment? Section 4.3.2 future document. From an encapsulation perspective, the combination of the 6-tuple i.e., the typical 5-tuple enhanced with the DSCP and previously mentioned optional field (i.e., flow label), uniquely identifies a DetNet IP flow. I agree with the directorate reviewer that the language here needs to get cleaned up. queue or shaper, is used by such flows. There are multiple methods that MAY be used by an implementation to defend service delivery to reserved DetNet flows, including but not limited to: nit: this doesn't seem like a normative MAY. Section 4.3.3 next hops. As mentioned above, the DetNet IP data plane identifies flows using "6-tuple" header information as well as the additional optional header field. DetNet generally allows for both flow- Please just name the "optional header field" field directly; there's no need to be oblique about it. Care should be taken when using different next hops for the same 5-tuple. As discussed in [RFC7657], unexpected behavior can occur when a single 5-tuple application flow experience reordering due to being split across multiple next hops. Understanding of the For some reason I thought the detnet architecture doc also had some discussion of potential consequences of having a single flow split across multiple paths, but all I can find is Section 3.2.2.2 that points out there may be need to have additional buffering in such cases, in order to equalize delays. (Maybe I'm thinking of a different detnet document, though I'm not sure which one that would be.) application and transport protocol impact of using different next hops for the same 6-tuple is required. Again, this impacts path I don't think I understand why we went from "5-tuple" to "6-tuple" in the same paragraph. Section 4.4 flow identification. DetNet IP flows can be aggregated using any of the 6-tuple, and an additional optional field (i.e., flow label). Similarly to the previous comments, perhaps this should be "any of the 6-tuple and flow label"? There's no need to add "optional" when already subject to "using any of". Section 5.1 IP and higher layer protocol header information is used to identify DetNet flows. All DetNet implementations that support this document MUST identify individual DetNet flows based on the set of information identified in this section. Note, that additional flow Does this requirement apply even to those implementations that have no need to act at flow-level granularity, e.g., a router that only provide DetNet service for aggregated flows, as recommended in Section 4.4? The configuration and control information used to identify an individual DetNet flow MUST be ordered by an implementation. Implementations MUST support a fixed order when identifying flows, and MUST identify a DetNet flow by the first set of matching flow information. I'm a little surprised that this type of determinism is only an implementation-level requirement. If I'm understanding correctly, this requirement would still allow for two different implementations to use different rules for flow identification, and thus, potentially, to map a single end-to-end flow to different classes of service. Section 5.1.1.3 An implementation MUST support flow identification based on the next protocol values defined in Section 5.1.2. Other, non-zero values, MUST be used for flow identification. Implementations SHOULD allow I don't understand what distinction we're trying to draw between flow identification based on the values defined in Section 5.1.2 and flow identification based on other (non-zero) values. Aren't they both MUST-level requirements, as written? for these fields to be ignored for a specific DetNet flow. side note: it seems like we're using "flow" to mean a couple different (but similar) things in this paragraph (e.g., "considering IPv4 Protocol/IPv6 Next Header to be distinct or not"). Perhaps that's unavioidable, though. Section 5.1.1.4 Traffic Class Field when processing IPv6 packets. Implementations MUST support list based matching of DSCP values, where the list is nit: hyphenate "list-based matching" Section 6 Information identifying a DetNet flow is ordered and implementations use the first match. This can, for example, be used to provide a [this bit might perhaps be affected if my previous comment about implementation-specific results in any changes] DetNet service for a specific UDP flow, with unique Source and Destination Port field values, while providing a different service for the aggregate of all other flows with that same UDP Destination Port value. [and this part actually seems to be setting at least an expectation that the order is tied down more tightly than just "implementation specific". Is this order perhaps something that the controller plane is expected to provision?] Section 7 We discuss elsewhere the need for end systems to (paraphrasing) "not shoot themself in the foot", i.e., actually provide the resources necessary to meet DetNet traffic guarantees. For the case of DN attached systems that are behind a sub-network (e.g., ES2 in Figure 3), are there also considerations on the ability of that sub-network to provide the necessary level of service? Is there a need for synchronization of information about DetNet flows? For example, would the controller plane need to ensure that information about a new flow is fully propagated to the entire DetNet domain before any traffic on that flow starts to flow? If an attacker knows the 6-tuple used by a DetNet flow, isn't there a risk that they could use IP-level spoofing to generate traffic that gets classified as a DetNet flow, potentially causing that flow to exceed its reservation and get erminated? This may be a slightly different risk than the one discussed in the last paragraph as requiring policing at the input of the DetNet domain. (This is related to the "source address spoofing" risk that Bob Briscoe raised.) Security considerations for DetNet are described in detail in [I-D.ietf-detnet-security]. General security considerations are described in [RFC8655]. This section considers exclusively security side note: the wording of these first two sentences feels a little strange, as if the two documents should be somehow the same but are not. Perhaps: % Detailed security considerations for DetNet are catalogued in % [I-D.ietf-detnet-security], and a more general (abbreviated) treatment % is provided in [RFC8655]. Also, it looks like the comments I made on 2020-04-23 regarding draft-ietf-detnet-security (as a side note in my ballot position on draft-ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework-04) remain applicable: % The referenced document (now at -09) seems significantly improved from % when I previously made an in-passing review of the -03 % (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/jZLodXBmQa7ZFDbBIvDO_xCDD0E/), % however, some of the issues I mentioned there remain, at least in part % (e.g., mentioning the use of HMAC without a colocated discussion of % the need for key distribution and having a taxonomy of threats titled % "threat model"). Security aspects which are unique to DetNet are those whose aim is to provide the specific quality of service aspects of DetNet, which are primarily to deliver data flows with extremely low packet loss rates and bounded end-to-end delivery latency. I recognize that this is essentially verbatim from RFC 8655, but it still reads somewhat strangely to me: specifically, it seems to say that there are "security aspects [...] whose aim is to provide [QoS, low packet loss, and bounded latency]", and I don't think it's the security aspects specifically that aim to provide those. Rather, I think it's the overall goal of DetNet to provide those attributes, and there are some security aspepcts specific to attempting to provide those attributes. The primary considerations for the data plane is to maintain integrity of data and delivery of the associated DetNet service traversing the DetNet network. Application flows can be protected through whatever means is provided by the underlying technology. For example, encryption may be used, such as that provided by IPSec [RFC4301] for IP flows and/or by an underlying sub-net using MACSec [IEEE802.1AE-2018] for IP over Ethernet (Layer-2) flows. It's good that you call this out, so thank you for that. I'd suggest a slight addition, prefacing the sentence that currently starts with "Application flows" with a lead-in that "Since no DetNet-specific fields are available for DetNet IP, data integrity must be provided by a lower (or, potentially, higher) layer; application flows can [...]". I'd also consider noting that providing guaranteed delivery is impossible in the face of a sufficiently powerful attacker (that can drop all traffic, cut fiber, etc.), so the attacker in the DetNet threat model is necessarily slightly weaker than a typical BCP 72 threat model. Section 11.1 The way in which RFC 3473 is used does not seem to require a normative reference, to me. (RFC 4301 is perhaps in a similar situation, though given that we need normative references to 4302 and 4303, it doesn't stick out as much.) Section 11.2 Was it considered to make draft-ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework a normative reference? The reference in Section 3 that says "common data plane procedures and control information for all DetNet data planes" can be found in it makes me wonder whether it contains information that I need to know in order to use detnet-ip properly. From nobody Wed Jun 24 10:35:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7BF83A10C1; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:35:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert Wilton via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman , eagros@dolby.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.4.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert Wilton Message-ID: <159302015338.22546.11881186633509883643@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:35:53 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Robert Wilton's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 17:35:54 -0000 Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, Thanks for this document. The concept seems pretty simple, I just have a few comments. 3. DetNet IP Data Plane Overview In the introduction, I wondered whether it would be useful to mention that the Detnet forwarding is based on the classification of the 6-tuple that is programmed via the management plane with the next hop. E.g. introducing the key forwarding concept defined in 5.2. 4.2. DetNet Domain-Specific Considerations Are the sub networks shown in Figure 4 all detnet aware supporting the service function? If so, it may be helpful to explicitly clarify this. 4.3.3. Path Selection Like the other reviewers, I found the terminology around using 5-tuple/6-tuples slightly confusing in places. In particular, the text in 4.3.3 regarding 5 tuples seemed confusing. I basically interpreted the text as saying that 5-tuple forwarding already has these issues that must be avoided, and 6 tuple forwarding is no different. Should it also mention that EMCP should be avoided as part of this path selection section? I note that there is an informative reference to ietf-detnet-yang. I wasn't sure whether an informative reference to YANG itself might also be worth adding. Regards, Rob From nobody Wed Jun 24 12:55:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7F1B3A1171; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 12:55:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alissa Cooper via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman , eagros@dolby.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.4.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Alissa Cooper Message-ID: <159302853241.18577.558143133312130681@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 12:55:32 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 19:55:33 -0000 Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I support Alvaro's DISCUSS and I agree that the data plane draft should be a normative reference. From nobody Wed Jun 24 12:58:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8912D3A1156; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 12:58:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=YeYAGMMi; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=J/p7GeF5 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q2IcJu2v6reh; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 12:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C96F3A1155; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 12:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 047685C00F5; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 15:58:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 24 Jun 2020 15:58:39 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=e ClULtFVlaDjXUMH6UcSdge4PQXbmTFyO7yYMYmOBrY=; b=YeYAGMMiXPTigfSh0 CDrZEnzxWO4KZo9kkCHkVqkQOMO158bp5VkbkYNOpM26rFsjGXJKsrO0QBJ3HaUp M6zArjLqyUvY4JDa2sRnHWMnh8+xkW/OkqNEBBQlIgpyt/bf+DxzTal8miIPFdKN Q9NxrsfHPrkW+/+fm6PHqrYgW98fkA5Beg3wHysOGtiQjRDiZ6YAvmvcUgqK/Jo2 kdSul2DmV3oiMgE09uK3R6WrbLmTR32ogMf4Db3DFrHgjizqUzdkTjXr7a3rsqOE A24s4Gq3DGaYnTn/vZCm2gIR3D0XZ+QGgrYyZpB4iqHmdjq+9psG52EEZavyj9pN yUFag== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=eClULtFVlaDjXUMH6UcSdge4PQXbmTFyO7yYMYmOB rY=; b=J/p7GeF5Jz8d2w+xBXnNTYPzFkE/UPrMrzgfCJo61hCTSJ5I9WEt4ySVW ne4/z8fn3X5q81/c9nsUsm+b45Z+txxAPiLkDiUnBxgSzT+14UqEvhkKZ2Fx12Zo weFCORjS705wxpxhbbBxuP1mtkBoUyUFeCK+P40+RqqCU1KjL4fb7PSOVFCu1KIy IYrf0/lqQtjMoZW8F92buffmxva7Xoniv0vuLfhBxFsExqOuuTrp03oH//UWBusa /KNVc+HC+BvyDfQV4zaHH1mV5VpkTnDa+56K2KBvcdSgsUlBdE4/3tfWf07QNaRO Iq/Q7/c3nNWIJ853KcJVlKnh/rHHQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrudekjedgudefkecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeetlhhi shhsrgcuvehoohhpvghruceorghlihhsshgrsegtohhophgvrhifrdhinheqnecuggftrf grthhtvghrnhepfeduhffgtefgtedvvdffiedutdekffegvdejjedtieehfefgleefuedt ledvgffgnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghenucfkphepuddtkedrhedurddutd durdelkeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhm pegrlhhishhsrgestghoohhpvghrfidrihhn X-ME-Proxy: Received: from alcoop-m-c46z.fios-router.home (pool-108-51-101-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net [108.51.101.98]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 3A88E328005A; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 15:58:38 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.5\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD27DB2636@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 15:58:37 -0400 Cc: Roni Even , "gen-art@ietf.org" , "last-call@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-ip.all@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6962E6C6-B53A-482B-8CBA-892A51F8B054@cooperw.in> References: <158376501185.5507.4470173275140890090@ietfa.amsl.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD27DB2636@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> To: "Roni Even (A)" , "Black, David" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] [Gen-art] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-ip-05 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 19:58:42 -0000 Roni, thanks for your review. David, thanks for your response. I entered = a No Objection ballot. Alissa > On Mar 10, 2020, at 4:40 AM, Roni Even (A) = wrote: >=20 > Hi David, > Thanks, the new text is clearer > Roni >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Gen-art [mailto:gen-art-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Black, = David >> Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 1:20 AM >> To: Roni Even; gen-art@ietf.org >> Cc: Black, David; last-call@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; = draft-ietf-detnet- >> ip.all@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Gen-art] [Detnet] Genart last call review of = draft-ietf-detnet-ip-05 >>=20 >> Hi Roni, >>=20 >> Inline ... >>=20 >> Thanks, --David >>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: detnet On Behalf Of Roni Even via >>> Datatracker >>> Sent: Monday, March 9, 2020 10:44 AM >>> To: gen-art@ietf.org >>> Cc: last-call@ietf.org; detnet@ietf.org; >>> draft-ietf-detnet-ip.all@ietf.org >>> Subject: [Detnet] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-detnet-ip-05 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] >>>=20 >>> Reviewer: Roni Even >>> Review result: Ready with Nits >>>=20 >>> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area >>> Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed by >>> the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just like >>> any other last call comments. >>>=20 >>> For more information, please see the FAQ at >>>=20 >>> . >>>=20 >>> Document: draft-ietf-detnet-ip-?? >>> Reviewer: Roni Even >>> Review Date: 2020-03-09 >>> IETF LC End Date: 2020-03-13 >>> IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat >>>=20 >>> Summary: The document is ready for publication as a standard track = RFC >>> with nits >>>=20 >>> Major issues: >>>=20 >>> Minor issues: >>>=20 >>> Nits/editorial comments: >>>=20 >>> 1. In section 3 the paragraph before the last one " the appropriate >>> DetNet flow-specific information and ensures that the receives the >>> proper traffic treatment within the domain", looks to me that it >>> should be "that the flow receives ..." >> [David>] That looks like what was intended. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> 2. In section 6 I could not parse the second level bullet "When = the >>> DSCP field is used in flow identification, a list of field values = that >>> may be used by a specific flow." >> [David>] The text after the comma is intended to describe the = management and >> control information used to identify the flow, referring back to the = DSCP field. >>=20 >> As I'm responsible for this DSCP list "thorn" in the WG's "side" ;-), = here's a >> suggestion to improve clarity: >>=20 >> OLD >> * If the DSCP field is to be used in flow identification. >> Ignoring the DSCP filed is optional. >>=20 >> * When the DSCP field is used in flow identification, a list of >> field values that may be used by a specific flow. >> NEW >> * Whether or not the DSCP field is used in flow identification. >> Use of the DSCP field for flow identification is optional. >>=20 >> * If the DSCP field is used to identify a flow, then the flow >> identification information (for that flow) includes a list = of >> DSCPs used by that flow. >>=20 >> I took out "that may be used" as including too much detail - that = text covers >> situations where not all of the DSCP values are actually used, e.g., = there could be >> 5 possible DSCP values for a flow, but only 2 of them occur in actual = packets. >> That's not particularly important here, as the logic that determines = whether or >> not a packet is part of that flow has to match on all 5 possible DSCP = values. >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Gen-art mailing list >> Gen-art@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Gen-art mailing list > Gen-art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art From nobody Wed Jun 24 16:30:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9F33A11CB; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:30:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Warren Kumari via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman , eagros@dolby.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.4.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Warren Kumari Message-ID: <159304144303.23392.12428421340026282601@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:30:43 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Warren Kumari's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 23:30:43 -0000 Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm balloting NoObj in the "I read the protocol action, and I trust the sponsoring AD so have no problem." / "I have no cycles" sense. Due to other work, I was not able to review this document nearly as thoroughly as I would have liked, but I *do* support Alvaro's (and others) DISCUSS - there are many places where the document says that the network MUST do something, but without the something being particularly well defined;I'm sure that the authors / DetNet WG understand what these are, but it's not clear from the document itself -- I'm guessing that this is defined in other documents, but I wasn't able to easily find them. I was mystified by " For some of the protocols 5-tuples and 6-tuples cannot be used because the port information is not available (e.g., ICMP, IPSec ESP). Same can be valid for flow aggregates. " - is this that the 5/6 tuples cannot be used for flow aggregates? I went to try and find more info on flow aggregates, and looked in ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework (which, like many of the referenced draft-detnet- documents should be Normative references), but it didn't seem to have much detail (other than that "There are many techniques to achieve aggregation" -- where is how flow aggregation actually works documented? This document (S4.4) says that: flow aggregation "is an important technique for improving scaling by reducing the state per hop", but without understanding how flows are aggregated, and the state needed per flow, this is hard to evaluate. In addition "In either case, the management or control function that provisions the aggregate flows must ensure that adequate resources are allocated and configured to provide combined service requirements of the individual flows." -- if this "of the individual flows", or "of the aggregate flows"? Presumably there will be a difference. I found Section "5.3. DetNet IP Traffic Treatment Procedures" to be very terse -- I was expecting to read this and understand what *exactly* the IP Traffic Treatment Procedures are - instead it seemed to feel more like "Implementations must make sure that they provide the service that has been configured". The section says: " Typical mechanisms used to provide different treatment to different flows includes the allocation of system resources (such as queues and buffers) and provisioning or related parameters (such as shaping, and policing). " -- but this all feels fairly circular - where is the treatment of traffic "when operating in an IP packet switched network." actually defined? If I'm building a router/switch/similar, and what to provide support for DetNet over IP, what *exactly* do I do with traffic once it has been identified? How do I queue it differently? What happens if I cannot meet the requirement? Where is this documented? Apologies for not being able to review this in the depth it deserves, W From nobody Wed Jun 24 19:08:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21AEB3A1235 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 19:08:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MISSING_MIMEOLE=1.899, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=dooray.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vLLBUFPeJqGL for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 19:08:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mscreen.etri.re.kr 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BfcbLm1EyLS3uWox66EQ4v3izmYtDnK/eQTRbwvg==; c=relaxed/relaxed; s=selector; d=dooray.com; v=1; bh=p2s7Fy5DDKYOi/GZDGrvEHQDEiQ8cjlvmJ/YmJ/Gy7Q=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID; From: Jeong-dong Ryoo To: Stewart Bryant Cc: Stewart Bryant , DetNet WG , "draft-ietf-detnet-mpls.authors@ietf.org" , DetNet Chairs Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_208349_611975798.1593050916700" X-Dsn-Request: true Importance: Normal X-Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 11:08:37 +0900 (KST) Sender: ryoo@etri.re.kr References: <35FC628A-0DC8-40FD-820E-F2905E15CD78@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <35FC628A-0DC8-40FD-820E-F2905E15CD78@gmail.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Issue on supporting PREOF in DetNet MPLS X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , 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cmgw10.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.10]) by gproxy5.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 822C314040A for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 06:47:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id oRHqjnHn11R8BoRHqj7zcz; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 06:47:26 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=L7Izvdb8 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=dLZJa+xiwSxG16/P+YVxDGlgEgI=:19 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10:nop_ipv6 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10:nop_charset_1 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10:nop_rcvd_month_year a=Vy_oeq2dmq0A:10:endurance_base64_authed_username_1 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=174xjjHKAAAA:20 a=VB46miiLAAAA:20 a=i-58nwcLTU40Eif49ycA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10:nop_charset_2 a=mYAOWqAtFUkA:10:demote_hacked_domain_1 a=1dbGxDndw2gA:10:demote_hacked_domain_7 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=oLLdn0pZWZvNPHLtOtlD2Z+uDHIQMCCP7P2bywrOlG4=; b=i1Q5kYKsfLZbm+Gd1yvGrH8uhp MHvZeWIYdWcjqodnhT1hrXKw3VEjCseJOxtau2GOySSYBMmRn3pgzFmdG29ESrRUKBdsAUwYDGuNR agQuhcv89orZMRfllCWk94QLD; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=54383 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1joRHq-004MBM-4y; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 06:47:26 -0600 To: Murray Kucherawy , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman References: <159268298721.20554.4048287257566470741@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 08:47:24 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <159268298721.20554.4048287257566470741@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1joRHq-004MBM-4y X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:54383 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 12 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Murray Kucherawy's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 12:47:30 -0000 Hi, Thank you for the comments.  Please see response (as co-author) in-line below. On 6/20/2020 3:56 PM, Murray Kucherawy via Datatracker wrote: > Murray Kucherawy has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Just a pile of nits here: > > Section 1: > > * "... defined to support IP flows, instead ..." -- "instead" should start a > new sentence, or at least the comma should be a semi-colo sure. > > * "... data plane in Section 3, considerations that ..." -- add "and" before > "considerations" okay > > Section 3: > > * The parentheses in the second paragraph are unbalanced. > > * "Same can be valid for flow aggregates." -- To what does "Same" refer? agreed.  How about: s/Same be valid/This is also the case > > * "In such cases using smaller tuples are appropriate." -- s/are/is/ How about "In such cases, using fewer fields is fields is appropriate," > > * "... forwarded unmodified, however ..." -- "however" should start a new > sentence, or at least the comma should be a semi-colon I think the following sentence is wrong and should read: OLD         Non-DetNet and DetNet IP packets are identical on the wire.         Generally the fields used in flow identification are forwarded         unmodified, however modification of these fields is allowed,         for example changing the DSCP value, when required by the DetNet service. NEW         Non-DetNet and DetNet IP packets are identical on the wire.         Generally the fields used in flow identification are forwarded         unmodified. However, standard modification of the                 differentiated services (DSCP) field is not precluded. > * "Note, that Figure 1 and ..." -- remove the comma Thanks > * "TSN over MPLS is discribed in ..." -- s/discribed/described/ thanks > Section 4.1: > > * "... treatment on the connected sub-network, see ..." -- the comma should be > a semi-colon, or the references should be in parentheses, etc. sure > Section 4.2: > > * "... the underlying link / sub net specific ..." -- suggest > "link/sub-network", if I'm reading the rest of this right (just to match other > text, and tighten up the spaces) yup. > > * Some places in this section use "end-to-end", some use "end to end". I'm not > sure which is correct, but in any case the document should be consistent. this document has had many hands on it. changed to 'end-to-end' to match RFC8655 > * "... link / sub-network ..." -- same point as before, twice more sure > * ""R" and "E" denotes replication ..." -- s/denotes/denote/ thanks > Section 4.3.2: > > * "... subject of a completed reservation, can disrupt ..." -- remove the comma okay > * "Remarking packets ..." -- this should be "Re-marking" (two instances) sure > Section 4.3.3: > > * "... when a single 5-tuple application flow experience reordering ..." -- > s/experience/experiences/ > thanks > Section 4.4: > > * "... flows can be aggregated using any of the 6-tuple, ..." -- I can't quite > parse this. Do you mean "any subset of the elements of the 6-tuple"? > > OLD: > It is the responsibility of the DetNet controller plane to properly > provision the use of these aggregation mechanisms. This includes > ensuring that aggregated flows have compatible e.g., the same or very > similar QoS and/or CoS characteristics, see Section 4.3.2. It also > includes ensuring that per component-flow service requirements are > satisfied by the aggregate, see Section 5.3. > > NEW: > It is the responsibility of the DetNet controller plane to properly > provision the use of these aggregation mechanisms. This includes > ensuring that aggregated flows have compatible (e.g., the same or very > similar) QoS and/or CoS characteristics, per Section 4.3.2. It also > includes ensuring that per component-flow service requirements are > satisfied by the aggregate, per Section 5.3. yes, thank you. > > Section 5: > > * "... Traffic classification, for example ..." -- that should be a semi-colon, > or start a new sentence sure. > > Section 5.1: > > * "Note, that additional ..." -- remove comma done > Section 5.1.1.1: > > * "... prefix matching for this field, see ..." -- parenthesize the "see" > clause, or maybe change "see" to "per" okay > > Section 5.1.1.2: > > * Same issue with the tacked-on "see" and references. > > * "Note: any IP address ..." -- capitalize "any" > > Section 5.1.1.3: > > * "Other, non-zero values, MUST be ..." -- remove the commas > > Section 6: > > * "When used, can be used ..." -- suggest "When used, the field can be used ..." > > * "Exact and wildcard matching is required." (two instances) -- suggest > "Support for both exact and wildcard matching is required." > > Section 7: > > * "... through whatever means is provided by the ..." -- s/is/are/ > > Accepted all the above. Changes covered here can be previewed at: https://github.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/tree/working/lb/iesg-0625 https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc.cgi?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/working/lb/iesg-0625/ip/draft-ietf-detnet-ip.xml Thank you! Lou > From nobody Thu Jun 25 06:01:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3359E3A082E; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 06:01:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke_via_Datatracker?= To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman , eagros@dolby.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.4.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke?= Message-ID: <159309010508.1876.16540631536488836780@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 06:01:45 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-ie?= =?utf-8?q?tf-detnet-ip-06=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 13:01:46 -0000 Éric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for the work put into this document. I support Roman's first DISCUSS. Please find below a couple on non-blocking COMMENTs; but, I would really appreciate a reply/answer/comment on all my COMMENTs. I hope that this helps to improve the document, Regards, -éric == COMMENTS == Please bear with my lack of DetNet expertise... but I have to ask the following question: how are IP fragments (i.e. lacking transport ports) processed? as they cannot match the 6-tuple. Related question: what about ICMP messages? They are often critical to a flow (PMTUd for instance, or traceroute) and should perhaps inherit the DetNet service? -- Abstract -- Beside being the smallest abstract I have ever read on an IETF document, I also wonder about the wording "IP packet switched network". May be I am a purist, but, IP packet are forwarded and not switched. => recommend to add more meat in the abstract (notably differences with diffserv and intserv) *AND* remove the 'switched' word. -- Section 4.5 -- " While the DetNet IP data plane must support bidirectional DetNet flows, there are no special bidirectional features with respect to the data plane other than the need for the two directions of a co- routed bidirectional flow to take the same path." This section does not use normative wording and I wonder whether the 'need' to take the same path will always be true as some links have different throughput up/down or their link loads could be different. -- Section 5.1.2.1. -- " The rules defined in this section only apply when the IPv4 Protocol or IPv6 Next Header Field contains the IANA defined value for UDP or TCP." Is the intent to ignore those field when there is an IPv6 extension header between the IP and transport headers ? Same question for section 5.1.2.3. Does it also mean that SCTP is not supported? From nobody Thu Jun 25 06:27:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7D773A09B4 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 06:27:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rapM3gshH2gi for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 06:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.25.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC2853A09C4 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 06:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CMGW (unknown [10.9.0.13]) by gproxy1.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B9267981A6AA for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 07:27:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id oRuMjYdZB2tTHoRuMjOLfx; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 07:27:14 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=Kug94SeN c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=dLZJa+xiwSxG16/P+YVxDGlgEgI=:19 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10 a=Vy_oeq2dmq0A:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=174xjjHKAAAA:20 a=VB46miiLAAAA:20 a=fk4zamfxyloGzMzSu4QA:9 a=MOWUvcprqzY_-KZa:21 a=7-Xxlp4fknE0_rCx:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=mYAOWqAtFUkA:10 a=1dbGxDndw2gA:10 a=jGqiy6jZAAAA:8 a=5UHh9D4INieCpx_q3fIA:9 a=emmCbRQGxKp2-SFl:21 a=NpYiRgZwTshVjbWw:21 a=2FE4s96X9qvRAZEZ:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 a=jHrLhlbFqA1ZHZAWynec:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From: References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID :Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To: Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe :List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=LdMeCDKie6KNW8iS5mBvZXmxwHpCT8fhJudOrUdqYRw=; b=bcVbHHkELiibM0PvbUApSZzDmc fB/MM5vrLNCipQ7+IlqKKBmhCgMz2xqG+UMVRav0m3MzhjMwTOf8J4VGUc6cT8+sokHfku54218B9 agwK0uqI2HBB6LzPGAuoyOrh5; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=25263 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1joRuM-0008ca-2N; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 07:27:14 -0600 To: Roman Danyliw , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman References: <159285187260.32738.2496766777836008651@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 09:27:04 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <159285187260.32738.2496766777836008651@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------72D47218AF40B751A2927753" Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1joRuM-0008ca-2N X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:25263 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 5 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 13:27:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------72D47218AF40B751A2927753 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, Thank you for the comments/discuss.  Please see responses (as co-author) in line below On 6/22/2020 2:51 PM, Roman Danyliw via Datatracker wrote: > Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A few easy clarifications: > > ** Section 7. Per “From a data plane perspective this document does not add or > modify any header informationâ€, this statement, which is also found in Section > 9.1 of draft-ietf-detnet-security-10 does not seem consistent with Section 3 > which states “… however modification of these fields is allowed, for example > changing the DSCP value, when required by the DetNet serviceâ€. This is actually a mistake.  DetNet does not modify standard DSCP remarking.  I just addressed this as part of addressing Murry's comments.  The text should read:    Non-DetNet and DetNet IP packets are identical on the wire.    Generally the fields used in flow identification are forwarded    unmodified.  However, standard modification of the DSCP field    [RFC2474] is not precluded. > > ** Section 7. RFC8655 reminds us that “Security considerations for DetNet are > constrained (compared to, for example, the open Internet) because DetNet is > defined to operate only within a single administrative domainâ€. However, the > only IP-specific guidance on preventing escape from the DetNet domain is in > Section 4.2 (“Note that not mixing DetNet and non-DetNet traffic within a > single 5-tuple, as described above, enables simpler 5-tuple filters to be used > (or re-used) at the edges of a DetNet network to prevent > non-congestion-responsive DetNet traffic from escaping the DetNet domain.â€). > Please provide more prescriptive guidance in this section. How about adding the following to section 6. The DetNet controller plane MUST ensure that non-congestion-responsive DetNet traffic is not forwarded outside a DetNet domain. > > ** Section 7. The guidance from RFC8655 and draft-ietf-detnet-security needs > to be deconflicted relative to confidentiality. The following assertions are > stated in a single paragraph: > > (a) The primary considerations for the data plane is to maintain > integrity of data and delivery of the associated DetNet service > traversing the DetNet network. > > (b) Application flows can be protected > through whatever means is provided by the underlying technology. For > example, encryption may be used, such as that provided by IPSec > [RFC4301] for IP flows and/or by an underlying sub-net using MACSec > [IEEE802.1AE-2018] for IP over Ethernet (Layer-2) flows. > > (a) appears to be a cut-and-paste (or maybe vice versa) from Section 9 of > draft-ietf-detnet-security-10 > > (b) appears to be a cut-and-paste from Section 5 of RFC8655. > > The concatenation of (a) + (b) appears to be unique to this document. > > When RFC8655 states (b), it prefaced with “[t]o maintain confidentiality of > data traversing the DetNet, application flows can be protected through whatever > means is provided by the underlying technology.†(a) makes no references to > confidentiality. It seems like it should. Sure, added. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks for responding to the SECDIR review (and thank you Tero for doing it). > > ** Section 3. I wasn’t able to follow how the reference architectures (Figure > 1 and 2) in this section had bearing on the normative behavior in Section 5 and > 6. Figures 1 and 2 provide overall context for the node specific behavior defined in 5 and 6. > > ** Section 3. Editorial. As a reader, I would have benefited from a forward > reference to Section 5 somewhere in this section. As I was reading this text, > I kept looking for specify in exactly which fields go into the tuple and under > what circumstances. sure. > ** Section 3. Per “Same can be valid for flow aggregatesâ€, I didn’t follow > what this meant. Did you mean, “The same can be true for flow aggregatesâ€, > editorially? But I’m still not sure what a “flow aggregates†is in this case. This has been fixed per my previous mail. > ** Section 3. Per “… however modification of these fields is allowed, for > example changing the DSCP value, when required by the DetNet serviceâ€, is the > DSCP the only field that is permitted to be modified? Perhaps I missed it, but > I didn’t see this behavior covered in the subsequent guidance (i.e., outside of > this overview) -- see related DISCUSS above. per above, detnet does not preclude standard remarking, i.,e., it allows for it. > ** Section 4. Per “This section provides informative considerations …â€, is > that the same thing as saying this entire section is not normative? If so, I > was surprised by the use of RFC2119 language in this section. "informative" should have been removed when the 2119 language was added.  I have removed it. > ** Section 4.2. Per “Note that not mixing DetNet and non-DetNet traffic within > a single 5-tupleâ€, how does one do flow identification if such mixing is done? This is a requirement on the application.  It's the only one that could identify the different traffic types when such mixing occurs. > > ** Section 4.3.1. Is there a pointer that can be provided to explain how > DetNet nodes are to “ensure that the CoS service classes do not impact the > congestion protection and latency control mechanisms used to provide DetNet > QoS?†This is a tough one as the IETF has generally avoided defining internal behavior (unlike some other SDOs).  Section 5.3 does provide some additional information. > ** Section 5.1.2.2. Per “DetNet flow identification for ICMP is achieved based > on the protocol’s headerâ€, I recommend being precise by explicitly saying which > protocol header field and which value (just as was done in for TCP, UDP and > IPSec.). In the current definition, it's just the protocol number: s/protocol's header/protocol number in the IP header. > ** Section 7. It wasn’t clear to me which security consideration mentioned > here were specific to a DetNet data plane when IP is used for the forwarding > sub-layer. I have no issues restating key considerations, but this write-up > was generic. I'm not sure what else to add here.  If you have suggestion, we're more than open to them. Changes covered here can be previewed at: https://github.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/tree/working/lb/iesg-0625 https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc.cgi?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/working/lb/iesg-0625/ip/draft-ietf-detnet-ip.xml Thank you! Lou > > > --------------72D47218AF40B751A2927753 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi,

Thank you for the comments/discuss.  Please see responses (as co-author) in line below


On 6/22/2020 2:51 PM, Roman Danyliw via Datatracker wrote:
Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

A few easy clarifications:

** Section 7.  Per “From a data plane perspective this document does not add or
modify any header informationâ€, this statement, which is also found in Section
9.1 of draft-ietf-detnet-security-10 does not seem consistent with Section 3
which states “… however modification of these fields is allowed, for example
changing the DSCP value, when required by the DetNet serviceâ€.
This is actually a mistake.  DetNet does not modify standard DSCP remarking.  I just addressed this as part of addressing Murry's comments.  The text should read:

   Non-DetNet and DetNet IP packets are identical on the wire.
   Generally the fields used in flow identification are forwarded
   unmodified.  However, standard modification of the DSCP field
   [RFC2474] is not precluded.


** Section 7.  RFC8655 reminds us that “Security considerations for DetNet are
constrained (compared to, for example, the open Internet) because DetNet is
defined to operate only within a single administrative domainâ€.  However, the
only IP-specific guidance on preventing escape from the DetNet domain is in
Section 4.2 (“Note that not mixing DetNet and non-DetNet traffic within a
single 5-tuple,  as described above, enables simpler 5-tuple filters to be used
(or re-used) at the edges of a DetNet network to prevent
non-congestion-responsive DetNet traffic from escaping the DetNet domain.â€). 
Please provide more prescriptive guidance in this section.
How about adding the following to section 6.

The DetNet controller plane MUST ensure that non-congestion-responsive DetNet traffic is not forwarded outside a DetNet domain.



** Section 7.  The guidance from RFC8655 and draft-ietf-detnet-security needs
to be deconflicted relative to confidentiality.  The following assertions are
stated in a single paragraph:

(a) The primary considerations for the data plane is to maintain
   integrity of data and delivery of the associated DetNet service
   traversing the DetNet network.

(b) Application flows can be protected
   through whatever means is provided by the underlying technology.  For
   example, encryption may be used, such as that provided by IPSec
   [RFC4301] for IP flows and/or by an underlying sub-net using MACSec
   [IEEE802.1AE-2018] for IP over Ethernet (Layer-2) flows.

(a) appears to be a cut-and-paste (or maybe vice versa) from Section 9 of
draft-ietf-detnet-security-10

(b) appears to be a cut-and-paste from Section 5 of RFC8655.

The concatenation of (a) + (b) appears to be unique to this document.

When RFC8655 states (b), it prefaced with “[t]o maintain confidentiality of
data traversing the DetNet, application flows can be protected through whatever
means is provided by the underlying technology.† (a) makes no references to
confidentiality.  It seems like it should.
Sure, added.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for responding to the SECDIR review (and thank you Tero for doing it).

** Section 3.  I wasn’t able to follow how the reference architectures (Figure
1 and 2) in this section had bearing on the normative behavior in Section 5 and
6.
Figures 1 and 2 provide overall context for the node specific behavior defined in 5 and 6.

** Section 3. Editorial.  As a reader, I would have benefited from a forward
reference to Section 5 somewhere in this section.  As I was reading this text,
I kept looking for specify in exactly which fields go into the tuple and under
what circumstances.
sure.
** Section 3.  Per “Same can be valid for flow aggregatesâ€, I didn’t follow
what this meant.  Did you mean, “The same can be true for flow aggregatesâ€,
editorially? But I’m still not sure what a “flow aggregates†is in this case.

This has been fixed per my previous mail.


** Section 3.  Per “… however modification of these fields is allowed, for
example changing the DSCP value, when required by the DetNet serviceâ€, is the
DSCP the only field that is permitted to be modified?  Perhaps I missed it, but
I didn’t see this behavior covered in the subsequent guidance (i.e., outside of
this overview) -- see related DISCUSS above.

per above, detnet does not preclude standard remarking, i.,e., it allows for it.

** Section 4.  Per “This section provides informative considerations …â€, is
that the same thing as saying this entire section is not normative?  If so, I
was surprised by the use of RFC2119 language in this section.
"informative" should have been removed when the 2119 language was added.  I have removed it.
** Section 4.2.  Per “Note that not mixing DetNet and non-DetNet traffic within
a single 5-tupleâ€, how does one do flow identification if such mixing is done?

This is a requirement on the application.  It's the only one that could identify the different traffic types when such mixing occurs.



** Section 4.3.1.  Is there a pointer that can be provided to explain how
DetNet nodes are to “ensure that the CoS service classes do not impact the
congestion protection and latency control mechanisms used to provide DetNet
QoS?â€

This is a tough one as the IETF has generally avoided defining internal behavior (unlike some other SDOs).  Section 5.3 does provide some additional information.


** Section 5.1.2.2.  Per “DetNet flow identification for ICMP is achieved based
on the protocol’s headerâ€, I recommend being precise by explicitly saying which
protocol header field and which value (just as was done in for TCP, UDP and
IPSec.).

In the current definition, it's just the protocol number:

s/protocol's header/protocol number in the IP header.

** Section 7.  It wasn’t clear to me which security consideration mentioned
here were specific to a DetNet data plane when IP is used for the forwarding
sub-layer.  I have no issues restating key considerations, but this write-up
was generic.

I'm not sure what else to add here.  If you have suggestion, we're more than open to them.

Changes covered here can be previewed at: 
https://github.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/tree/working/lb/iesg-0625

https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc.cgi?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/working/lb/iesg-0625/ip/draft-ietf-detnet-ip.xml

Thank you!

Lou
--------------72D47218AF40B751A2927753-- From nobody Thu Jun 25 07:11:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A91743A0B87; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 07:11:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yUDV3xiZVp16; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 07:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from taper.sei.cmu.edu (taper.sei.cmu.edu 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helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1joSpC-000QCf-21; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 08:25:58 -0600 To: Alvaro Retana , The IESG Cc: Ethan Grossman , detnet@ietf.org, draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, detnet-chairs@ietf.org References: <159292690639.3288.6217558507015891728@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <403116c7-6a80-9368-91ac-a0f0d1ba2cb0@labn.net> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 10:25:52 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <159292690639.3288.6217558507015891728@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1joSpC-000QCf-21 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:57411 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 4 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 14:26:04 -0000 Hi Alvaro, Thank you for the comments/discuss.  Please see responses (as co-author) in line below On 6/23/2020 11:41 AM, Alvaro Retana via Datatracker wrote: > Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Several sections mandate actions to be taken where the specific mechanisms are > not clearly defined. This lack of specifics leaves me at a loss about what is > being mandated. I think you have two points here: 1) What are the traffic control (queuing, shaping policing) mechanisms required by this document and 2) What are the required forwarding/node implementation behavior right? WRT 1) As far as I can tell the IETF doesn't specify internal node behavior but rather just the required node behavior.  This is even true back to RSVP/Int-Serv days.  To be consistent with that, the closest we felt we could go is covered in section 5.3: 5.3. DetNet IP Traffic Treatment Procedures Implementations of this document MUST ensure that a DetNet flow receives the traffic treatment that is provisioned for it via configuration or the controller plane, e.g., via [I-D.ietf-detnet-yang]. General information on DetNet service can be found in [I-D.ietf-detnet-flow-information-model]. Typical mechanisms used to provide different treatment to different flows includes the allocation of system resources (such as queues and buffers) and provisioning or related parameters (such as shaping, and policing). Support can also be provided via an underlying network technology such as MPLS [I-D.ietf-detnet-ip-over-mpls] or IEEE802.1 TSN [I-D.ietf-detnet-ip-over-tsn]. Other mechanisms than the ones used in the TSN case are outside the scope of this document. As a WG we're also working on additional *informative* documents that relate to a node providing a DetNet service (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-bounded-latency). If you have a proposal on what more we should do, it would be most appreciated. WRT 2) The specific node behavior is specified in sections 5, with management/control requirements specified in section 6.  If you feel there's not much there, I think that's because there really isn't much to the DetNet IP data plane that is more than can be summarized by "IP DetNet=PBR+QoS".  Now the document does have specific traffic classification and forwarding behaviors -- and this is what is found in section 5 and controlled via section 6. Again, If you have a proposal on what more we should do or what things we can fix (beyond what is addressed below), it would be most appreciated. Please see the specific response below and if your 'discuss'-level concerns are still present. > Specifically: > > (1) §4.3.2 (Quality of Service): "Quality of Service...MUST be provided > locally by the DetNet-aware hosts and routers supporting DetNet flows. > The traffic control mechanisms used to deliver QoS...are expected to be > defined in a future document." while likely not diminishing your larger point, I think this is left over from older version.  It should read: it should read:         The node-internal traffic control mechanisms used to deliver QoS for           IP encapsulated DetNet flows are outside the scope of this           document. > > (2) §5.2 (Forwarding Procedures): "Specifically...SHALL use management and > control information to select the one or more outgoing interfaces and > next hops..." This sentence sounds very generic to me: using management > and control information is what every forwarder does -- regardless of > DetNet. Not only is it a generic statement, but the management and > control functions are not defined... Management and control information is summarized in section 6 and as stated just below the quoted text: The above implies that management and control functions will be defined to support this requirement, e.g., see [I-D.ietf-detnet-yang]. > > (3) §5.3 (DetNet IP Traffic Treatment Procedures): "MUST ensure that a > DetNet flow receives the traffic treatment that is provisioned for > it...Typical mechanisms used to provide different treatment to different > flows includes the allocation of system resources...and provisioning or > related parameters...Other mechanisms than the ones used in the TSN case > are outside the scope of this document." > > It is ok to define the mechanisms in a different document -- but there are no > specific references. What exactly is this document requiring (MUST)? If there > are no specifics on the mechanisms (or where they are defined), how can an > implementation comply with this document? This is a fair point, but I don't see where we have specific queuing mechanisms defined. Now we certainly have on-wire behavior defined, e,g, RFC  2212, and others have defined ones IEEE 802.1Qch.  Our expectation is that the management (YANG) and future control plane documents will specific which forwarding treatment is expected for specific flows. We also expect that the market (users/providers and vendors) will decide ehcih are appropriate for different use cases and products just as is done for MPLS-TE in general. > What are the interoperability > consequences if not all nodes comply with the same set of (undefined) > mechanisms? The traffic delivery won't be what's expected, and those vendors with behavior not suited to particular applications won't be selected for such networks.  Again, taking a page from the MPLS-TE market place... > > I am balloting DISCUSS because I believe that this omission makes the > specification incomplete. Adding details will satisfy my concern. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > (1) §4.2 (DetNet Domain-Specific Considerations): > > As a general rule, DetNet IP domains need to be able to forward any > DetNet flow identified by the IP 6-tuple. Doing otherwise would > limit the number of 6-tuple flow ID combinations that could be used > by the end systems. From a practical standpoint this means that all > nodes along the end-to-end path of DetNet flows need to agree on what > fields are used for flow identification. > > There is text in §5.1 requiring the ability to forward based on the > 6-tuple...but there is nothing related to the "need to agree on what fields are > used for flow identification" -- it seems to me that this agreement should also > be required. §6 does say: > > It is the responsibility of the DetNet controller plane to properly > provision both flow identification information and the flow specific > resources needed to provided the traffic treatment needed to meet > each flow's service requirements. This applies for aggregated and > individual flows. > > I guess that "to properly provision" can be a standin for the "need to agree on > what fields are used". I would still like to see something about the effect of > not agreeing on/provisioning the information correctly/consistently. okay, how about:           Possible consequences of not having such an agreement include           having some flows interfering with other flows, and for a           the traffic treatment expected for a service not being           provided. > > (2) §4.3.1 (Class of Service): "...DetNet nodes...MUST ensure that the CoS > service classes do not impact the congestion protection and latency control > mechanisms used to provide DetNet QoS." > > (a) What enforceable action are the DetNet nodes expected to take to comply > with this statement? This is an internal implementation matter. > What does ensuring include? That the the traffic treatment of other flows are not impacted -- as observed on the wire. > (b) Maybe it's just me, but I would think that the requirement is not at a node > level (each node doing something), but within a DetNet domain; IOW, this sounds > more like a provisioning requirement (even probably related to the text from §6 > I quoted above). I certainly agree there is a large interaction here. > > (3) §5.1 (DetNet IP Flow Identification Procedures): s/The configuration and > control information used to identify an individual DetNet flow MUST be ordered > by an implementation./An implementation MUST support ordering of the > configuration and control information used to identify an individual DetNet > flow. > > The current wording seems to imply that the implementation may order the > information any way it wants...but proper identification through the domain > depends on consistent ordering. agreed.  to be consistent with the section:             An implementation MUST support ordering of the             set of information information used to identify an             individual DetNet flow. > > (4) §5.1.1.3 (IPv4 Protocol and IPv6 Next Header Fields): > > Implementations of this document MUST support DetNet flow > identification based on the IPv4 Protocol field when processing IPv4 > packets, and the IPv6 Next Header Field when processing IPv6 packets. > An implementation MUST support flow identification based on the next > protocol values defined in Section 5.1.2. Other, non-zero values, > MUST be used for flow identification. > > The first sentence represents a superset of the second: in general, using the > Protocol field includes more options than just what is defined in §5.1.2. Yes, but the second is a refinement and has additional implementation implications. > > The third sentence, again, goes back to a superset: anything else except 0. > BTW, 0 is the IPv6 HbH option -- do you really want to exclude it? I think so, but this was not extensively discussed.  Do you think it's the wrong call? > Can that paragraph be summarized by just the first sentence? > > (5) "Implementations SHOULD allow for this field to be ignored for a specific > DetNet flow." This sentence, or a "MUST allow" version, are used throughout > the document. Is there a strong reason (that I'm obviously missing) to > sometimes use SHOULD and others MUST? It came down to complexity of new hardware and allowing for support for existing hardware as much as possible. > (6) A reference for ICMP is needed. Done! > (7) §5.1.2.2 (ICMP): "Note that ICMP type is not included in the flow > definition." Does this mean that the ICMP type should not (SHOULD NOT/MUST NOT > ??) be used in the flow definition? That's what the text sounds to me as > saying. This came from a question -- we don't want to preclude a future addition of looking ICMP type, but right now it's not included. > I found a thread in the archive [1] which talks about this sentence being added > with the intention of supporting ICMP types...but even with that added context > the text just sounds as if the opposite was intended. > > [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/wVA93y2cO2nt9ddFcDaTw-eHKK8 > > (8) I believe that these references should be Normative: > I-D.ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework and RFC8655. the data plane framework is informative so generally references to informative docs are informative. > > (9) Editorial nits: > > s/uses "6-tuple" based flow identification, where 6-tuple refers to/uses > 6-tuple based flow identification, where "6-tuple" refers to yes. > s/6-tuple is (destination/6-tuple is destination thanks > s/Same can be valid/The same can be valid this text was replaced in an earlier response. > s/using smaller tuples are appropriate/using smaller tuples is appropriate the text now reads      In such cases, using fewer fields is appropriate, > s/can communicate over DetNet IP network with IP End System./can communicate > over a DetNet IP network with IP End Systems. yes > s/from data plane perspective/from [a|the] data plane perspective thanks > s/end-system/end system/g done > > s/multiple methods that MAY be used...including but not limited to/multiple > methods that may be used...including but not limited to thanks > s/matching based on this field MUST allow for this field to be ignored/matching > based on this field MUST allow for it to be ignored okay > > s/found in the [I-D.ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework]/found in > [I-D.ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework]/g done > s/provisioning or related parameters/provisioning of related parameters > thanks Changes covered here can be previewed at: https://github.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/tree/working/lb/iesg-0625 https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc.cgi?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/working/lb/iesg-0625/ip/draft-ietf-detnet-ip.xml Thank you! Lou > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Thu Jun 25 07:26:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862C13A0B8C for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 07:26:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CXZ7BUoNxcXG for ; 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a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From: References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID :Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To: Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe :List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=eBPHUjkQJWsJdwVFSPWKAZPUhngexUn5uX6uBTcQn0M=; b=clDUEh3M5ibceBcXoHL24CuVPF znPAH6Zo0KJkUNlYls9EnDFqPLMKRO/Ff80sa7b4KuTx8tdn5TPtcJaknlncxgSLWyX87InmPFcOY f1nF0gu70R8P0sqOczTKbajIW; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=57789 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1joSpw-000QRR-5X; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 08:26:44 -0600 To: Roman Danyliw , The IESG Cc: Ethan Grossman , "detnet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org" , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" References: <159285187260.32738.2496766777836008651@ietfa.amsl.com> <721c6cdc3fa544349a650ca49208dbbb@cert.org> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 10:26:38 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <721c6cdc3fa544349a650ca49208dbbb@cert.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6A14CC15F5A5AC481E9D9598" Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1joSpw-000QRR-5X X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:57789 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 10 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 14:26:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6A14CC15F5A5AC481E9D9598 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks Roman! On 6/25/2020 10:11 AM, Roman Danyliw wrote: > > Hi Lou! > > Thanks for the quick response with the edits and clarifications.  In > that spirit and resolving blocking things before the telechat -- the > proposed edits addresses my DISCUSSes; consider all of the COMMENTs > but the last resolved (give me a chance to put fingers to keyboard). > > Roman > > *From:* iesg *On Behalf Of * Lou Berger > *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 9:27 AM > *To:* Roman Danyliw ; The IESG > *Cc:* Ethan Grossman ; detnet@ietf.org; > draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org; detnet-chairs@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: > (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > Hi, > > Thank you for the comments/discuss.  Please see responses (as > co-author) in line below > > On 6/22/2020 2:51 PM, Roman Danyliw via Datatracker wrote: > > Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for > > draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > > introductory paragraph, however.) > > Please refer tohttps://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > DISCUSS: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A few easy clarifications: > > ** Section 7.  Per “From a data plane perspective this document does not add or > > modify any header informationâ€, this statement, which is also found in Section > > 9.1 of draft-ietf-detnet-security-10 does not seem consistent with Section 3 > > which states “… however modification of these fields is allowed, for example > > changing the DSCP value, when required by the DetNet serviceâ€. > > This is actually a mistake.  DetNet does not modify standard DSCP > remarking.  I just addressed this as part of addressing Murry's > comments.  The text should read: > >    Non-DetNet and DetNet IP packets are identical on the wire. >    Generally the fields used in flow identification are forwarded >    unmodified.  However, standard modification of the DSCP field >    [RFC2474] is not precluded. > > > ** Section 7.  RFC8655 reminds us that “Security considerations for DetNet are > > constrained (compared to, for example, the open Internet) because DetNet is > > defined to operate only within a single administrative domainâ€.  However, the > > only IP-specific guidance on preventing escape from the DetNet domain is in > > Section 4.2 (“Note that not mixing DetNet and non-DetNet traffic within a > > single 5-tuple,  as described above, enables simpler 5-tuple filters to be used > > (or re-used) at the edges of a DetNet network to prevent > > non-congestion-responsive DetNet traffic from escaping the DetNet domain.â€). > > Please provide more prescriptive guidance in this section. > > How about adding the following to section 6. > > The DetNet controller plane MUST ensure that non-congestion-responsive > DetNet traffic is not forwarded outside a DetNet domain. > > ** Section 7.  The guidance from RFC8655 and draft-ietf-detnet-security needs > > to be deconflicted relative to confidentiality.  The following assertions are > > stated in a single paragraph: > > (a) The primary considerations for the data plane is to maintain > >    integrity of data and delivery of the associated DetNet service > >    traversing the DetNet network. > > (b) Application flows can be protected > >    through whatever means is provided by the underlying technology.  For > >    example, encryption may be used, such as that provided by IPSec > >    [RFC4301] for IP flows and/or by an underlying sub-net using MACSec > >    [IEEE802.1AE-2018] for IP over Ethernet (Layer-2) flows. > > (a) appears to be a cut-and-paste (or maybe vice versa) from Section 9 of > > draft-ietf-detnet-security-10 > > (b) appears to be a cut-and-paste from Section 5 of RFC8655. > > The concatenation of (a) + (b) appears to be unique to this document. > > When RFC8655 states (b), it prefaced with “[t]o maintain confidentiality of > > data traversing the DetNet, application flows can be protected through whatever > > means is provided by the underlying technology.â€Â  (a) makes no references to > > confidentiality.  It seems like it should. > > Sure, added. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > COMMENT: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks for responding to the SECDIR review (and thank you Tero for doing it). > > ** Section 3.  I wasn’t able to follow how the reference architectures (Figure > > 1 and 2) in this section had bearing on the normative behavior in Section 5 and > > 6. > > Figures 1 and 2 provide overall context for the node specific behavior > defined in 5 and 6. > > ** Section 3. Editorial.  As a reader, I would have benefited from a forward > > reference to Section 5 somewhere in this section.  As I was reading this text, > > I kept looking for specify in exactly which fields go into the tuple and under > > what circumstances. > > sure. > > ** Section 3.  Per “Same can be valid for flow aggregatesâ€, I didn’t follow > > what this meant.  Did you mean, “The same can be true for flow aggregatesâ€, > > editorially? But I’m still not sure what a “flow aggregates†is in this case. > > This has been fixed per my previous mail. > > ** Section 3.  Per “… however modification of these fields is allowed, for > > example changing the DSCP value, when required by the DetNet serviceâ€, is the > > DSCP the only field that is permitted to be modified?  Perhaps I missed it, but > > I didn’t see this behavior covered in the subsequent guidance (i.e., outside of > > this overview) -- see related DISCUSS above. > > per above, detnet does not preclude standard remarking, i.,e., it > allows for it. > > ** Section 4.  Per “This section provides informative considerations …â€, is > > that the same thing as saying this entire section is not normative?  If so, I > > was surprised by the use of RFC2119 language in this section. > > "informative" should have been removed when the 2119 language was > added.  I have removed it. > > ** Section 4.2.  Per “Note that not mixing DetNet and non-DetNet traffic within > > a single 5-tupleâ€, how does one do flow identification if such mixing is done? > > This is a requirement on the application.  It's the only one that > could identify the different traffic types when such mixing occurs. > > ** Section 4.3.1.  Is there a pointer that can be provided to explain how > > DetNet nodes are to “ensure that the CoS service classes do not impact the > > congestion protection and latency control mechanisms used to provide DetNet > > QoS?†> > This is a tough one as the IETF has generally avoided defining > internal behavior (unlike some other SDOs). Section 5.3 does provide > some additional information. > > ** Section 5.1.2.2.  Per “DetNet flow identification for ICMP is achieved based > > on the protocol’s headerâ€, I recommend being precise by explicitly saying which > > protocol header field and which value (just as was done in for TCP, UDP and > > IPSec.). > > In the current definition, it's just the protocol number: > > s/protocol's header/protocol number in the IP header. > > ** Section 7.  It wasn’t clear to me which security consideration mentioned > > here were specific to a DetNet data plane when IP is used for the forwarding > > sub-layer.  I have no issues restating key considerations, but this write-up > > was generic. > > I'm not sure what else to add here.  If you have suggestion, we're > more than open to them. > > Changes covered here can be previewed at: > https://github.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/tree/working/lb/iesg-0625 > https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc.cgi?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/working/lb/iesg-0625/ip/draft-ietf-detnet-ip.xml > Thank you! > Lou > --------------6A14CC15F5A5AC481E9D9598 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Thanks Roman!

On 6/25/2020 10:11 AM, Roman Danyliw wrote:

Hi Lou!

 

Thanks for the quick response with the edits and clarifications.  In that spirit and resolving blocking things before the telechat -- the proposed edits addresses my DISCUSSes; consider all of the COMMENTs but the last resolved (give me a chance to put fingers to keyboard).

 

Roman

 

From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Lou Berger
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 9:27 AM
To: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: Ethan Grossman <eagros@dolby.com>; detnet@ietf.org; draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org; detnet-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

 

Hi,

Thank you for the comments/discuss.  Please see responses (as co-author) in line below

 

On 6/22/2020 2:51 PM, Roman Danyliw via Datatracker wrote:

Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: Discuss
 
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)
 
 
Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
 
 
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/
 
 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
A few easy clarifications:
 
** Section 7.  Per “From a data plane perspective this document does not add or
modify any header informationâ€, this statement, which is also found in Section
9.1 of draft-ietf-detnet-security-10 does not seem consistent with Section 3
which states “… however modification of these fields is allowed, for example
changing the DSCP value, when required by the DetNet serviceâ€.

This is actually a mistake.  DetNet does not modify standard DSCP remarking.  I just addressed this as part of addressing Murry's comments.  The text should read:

   Non-DetNet and DetNet IP packets are identical on the wire.
   Generally the fields used in flow identification are forwarded
   unmodified.  However, standard modification of the DSCP field
   [RFC2474] is not precluded.


 
 
** Section 7.  RFC8655 reminds us that “Security considerations for DetNet are
constrained (compared to, for example, the open Internet) because DetNet is
defined to operate only within a single administrative domainâ€.  However, the
only IP-specific guidance on preventing escape from the DetNet domain is in
Section 4.2 (“Note that not mixing DetNet and non-DetNet traffic within a
single 5-tuple,  as described above, enables simpler 5-tuple filters to be used
(or re-used) at the edges of a DetNet network to prevent
non-congestion-responsive DetNet traffic from escaping the DetNet domain.â€). 
Please provide more prescriptive guidance in this section.

How about adding the following to section 6.

The DetNet controller plane MUST ensure that non-congestion-responsive DetNet traffic is not forwarded outside a DetNet domain.

 

 
 
** Section 7.  The guidance from RFC8655 and draft-ietf-detnet-security needs
to be deconflicted relative to confidentiality.  The following assertions are
stated in a single paragraph:
 
(a) The primary considerations for the data plane is to maintain
   integrity of data and delivery of the associated DetNet service
   traversing the DetNet network.
 
(b) Application flows can be protected
   through whatever means is provided by the underlying technology.  For
   example, encryption may be used, such as that provided by IPSec
   [RFC4301] for IP flows and/or by an underlying sub-net using MACSec
   [IEEE802.1AE-2018] for IP over Ethernet (Layer-2) flows.
 
(a) appears to be a cut-and-paste (or maybe vice versa) from Section 9 of
draft-ietf-detnet-security-10
 
(b) appears to be a cut-and-paste from Section 5 of RFC8655.
 
The concatenation of (a) + (b) appears to be unique to this document.
 
When RFC8655 states (b), it prefaced with “[t]o maintain confidentiality of
data traversing the DetNet, application flows can be protected through whatever
means is provided by the underlying technology.â€Â  (a) makes no references to
confidentiality.  It seems like it should.

Sure, added.

 
 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Thanks for responding to the SECDIR review (and thank you Tero for doing it).
 
** Section 3.  I wasn’t able to follow how the reference architectures (Figure
1 and 2) in this section had bearing on the normative behavior in Section 5 and
6.

Figures 1 and 2 provide overall context for the node specific behavior defined in 5 and 6.

 
 
** Section 3. Editorial.  As a reader, I would have benefited from a forward
reference to Section 5 somewhere in this section.  As I was reading this text,
I kept looking for specify in exactly which fields go into the tuple and under
what circumstances.

sure.

 
** Section 3.  Per “Same can be valid for flow aggregatesâ€, I didn’t follow
what this meant.  Did you mean, “The same can be true for flow aggregatesâ€,
editorially? But I’m still not sure what a “flow aggregates†is in this case.

This has been fixed per my previous mail.

 

 
** Section 3.  Per “… however modification of these fields is allowed, for
example changing the DSCP value, when required by the DetNet serviceâ€, is the
DSCP the only field that is permitted to be modified?  Perhaps I missed it, but
I didn’t see this behavior covered in the subsequent guidance (i.e., outside of
this overview) -- see related DISCUSS above.

per above, detnet does not preclude standard remarking, i.,e., it allows for it.

 
** Section 4.  Per “This section provides informative considerations …â€, is
that the same thing as saying this entire section is not normative?  If so, I
was surprised by the use of RFC2119 language in this section.

"informative" should have been removed when the 2119 language was added.  I have removed it.

 
** Section 4.2.  Per “Note that not mixing DetNet and non-DetNet traffic within
a single 5-tupleâ€, how does one do flow identification if such mixing is done?

This is a requirement on the application.  It's the only one that could identify the different traffic types when such mixing occurs.

 

 
 
** Section 4.3.1.  Is there a pointer that can be provided to explain how
DetNet nodes are to “ensure that the CoS service classes do not impact the
congestion protection and latency control mechanisms used to provide DetNet
QoS?â€

This is a tough one as the IETF has generally avoided defining internal behavior (unlike some other SDOs).  Section 5.3 does provide some additional information.

 

 
** Section 5.1.2.2.  Per “DetNet flow identification for ICMP is achieved based
on the protocol’s headerâ€, I recommend being precise by explicitly saying which
protocol header field and which value (just as was done in for TCP, UDP and
IPSec.).

In the current definition, it's just the protocol number:

s/protocol's header/protocol number in the IP header.

 
** Section 7.  It wasn’t clear to me which security consideration mentioned
here were specific to a DetNet data plane when IP is used for the forwarding
sub-layer.  I have no issues restating key considerations, but this write-up
was generic.

I'm not sure what else to add here.  If you have suggestion, we're more than open to them.

Changes covered here can be previewed at: 
https://github.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/tree/working/lb/iesg-0625
 
https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc.cgi?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/working/lb/iesg-0625/ip/draft-ietf-detnet-ip.xml
 
Thank you!
 
Lou
 
 
 
 
 
--------------6A14CC15F5A5AC481E9D9598-- From nobody Thu Jun 25 08:39:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F7473A0C23 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 08:39:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pm0FocO5Yz1U for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 08:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [67.222.33.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6CD23A0C3A for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 08:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw15.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.15]) by gproxy8.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D79771AB1B8 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 09:38:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id oTxqjfFCJYpLeoTxqjVPtL; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 09:38:58 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=aMDeV41m c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=dLZJa+xiwSxG16/P+YVxDGlgEgI=:19 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10:nop_ipv6 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10:nop_charset_1 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10:nop_rcvd_month_year a=Vy_oeq2dmq0A:10:endurance_base64_authed_username_1 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=174xjjHKAAAA:20 a=VB46miiLAAAA:20 a=mo-JUqiCO-eSHspiBWQA:9 a=gYDWSq8u8Jw70Bbo:21 a=QXHHodeTgn7bzeXt:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10:nop_charset_2 a=mYAOWqAtFUkA:10:demote_hacked_domain_1 a=1dbGxDndw2gA:10:demote_hacked_domain_7 a=-RoEEKskQ1sA:10:nop_election2020_name_body a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=GNSXV9yJ6CZcgrME8bFHGjaDqOqBgutDBgpOhMpcDaA=; b=IKitcWCHwJAHS0MtE46MwT31BH WoHsF2j/i3Ba5sLgIbH47M+Ok4U4qWFp0tywHDaducvMW0vK9mtHxaDjj6s+3hoNTJOyPrNHo3TBC 6C9gjyowSUcHax3eNgcLeJtZK; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=47507 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1joTxq-000lZq-Cp; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 09:38:58 -0600 To: Benjamin Kaduk , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman References: <159301678986.2590.8134865738524436704@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 11:38:41 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <159301678986.2590.8134865738524436704@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1joTxq-000lZq-Cp X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:47507 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 13 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 15:39:12 -0000 Hi Benjamin, Thank you for the comments/discuss.  Please see responses (as co-author) in line below On 6/24/2020 12:39 PM, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker wrote: > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The other ADs caught a bunch of editorial stuff that I'll try to not > duplicate, though I do list a bunch of editorial stuff as well. > > Section 1 > > and routers that provide DetNet service to IP encapsulated data. No > DetNet-specific encapsulation is defined to support IP flows, instead > the existing IP and higher layer protocol header information is used > to support flow identification and DetNet service delivery. Common > > nit: comma splice > > This document provides an overview of the DetNet IP data plane in > Section 3, considerations that apply to providing DetNet services via > the DetNet IP data plane in Section 4. Section 5 provides the > > nit: this looks like it's trying to be a list but failing, so it's an > incomplete sentence. > > Section 3 > > Do we want to have a note anywhere in here about how information about > which flows are DetNet flows and what behavior(s) they get (e.g., the > controller plane, or perhaps a forward reference to section 5), to > remind the reader about the architecture? The above comments relate to text that has been modified based on earlier responses. > Non-DetNet and DetNet IP packets are identical on the wire. > > I suggest a different word than "identical", perhaps > "indistinguishable" (or maybe "the non-DetNet and DetNet IP packet > layouts") how about           Non-DetNet and DetNet IP packets can have the same protocol             header format on the wire. > DetNet flow aggregation may be enabled via the use of wildcards, > masks, lists, prefixes and ranges. IP tunnels may also be used to > > side note: I'd consider rewording so this doesn't sound like an > exhaustive list. > > Figure 1 illustrates a DetNet enabled IP network. The DetNet enabled > end systems originate IP encapsulated traffic that is identified > within the DetNet domain as DetNet flows. Relay nodes understand the > > nit: I think the description of "identified" could be tightened up -- at > present, one could read this as either "the DetNet ingress classifies IP > traffic as DetNet or non DetNet, thus identifying the flows that are > DetNet flows", or "within the DetNet domain, these flows (originated > from the specific end systems) are identifiable as being DetNet flows". added "...based on IP header information" > As non-DetNet and DetNet IP packets are identical on the wire, from > data plane perspective, the only difference is that there is flow- > > [whatever is done for "identical" above could be done here as well] > nit: missing article before "data-plane perspective" sure > Section 4.1 > > IP flow identification means that DetNet must be aware of not only > the format of the IP header, but also of the next protocol carried > within an IP packet (see Section 5.1.1.3). > > The way this is written it seems to bind as "(must be aware of) (not > only the format of) (the IP header) (but also of [the format of] the next > protocol)", but following the reference, it seems to only require > inspecting the value in the "next protocol" IP header field. > There would, of course, *also* be a requirement to look into TCP/UDP > headers to extract the ports needed for the 6-tuple, which is where I > originally thought this was going, but given the apparent intent, my > suggestion is to just s/next protocol/next protocol value/. thanks > End systems need to ensure that DetNet service requirements are met > when processing packets associated to a DetNet flow. When forwarding > > We just said in the previous paragraph that end systems can be > DetNet-unaware; how would such DetNet-unaware systems ensure that DetNet > service requirements are met? I'll rearrange the sentences to make clear what applies to aware end systems. > packets, this means that packets are appropriately shaped on > > Also, are end systems going to be *forwarding* packets? I thought that > it was DetNet edge nodes (and transit/relay nodes) that would do so. s/forwarding/sending > Section 4.2 > > aware. Such routers identify DetNet flows based on the IP 6-tuple, > and ensure that the DetNet service required traffic treatment is > provided both on the node and on any attached sub-network. > > nit: I suggest hyphenating the compound adjective(s?) in "DetNet service > required traffic treatment" or otherwise rewording it, as I'm not > entirely clear on how to parse it. > > This solution provides DetNet functions end to end, but does so on a > per link and sub-network basis. Congestion protection and latency > > We should probably note that there is a single point of failure at the > routers/etc. that remove and reapply these functions. > > Note that not mixing DetNet and non-DetNet traffic within a single > 5-tuple, as described above, enables simpler 5-tuple filters to be > used (or re-used) at the edges of a DetNet network to prevent non- > congestion-responsive DetNet traffic from escaping the DetNet domain. > > I'd consider s/described/recommended/ I think I'll defer to the RFC editor on the above. > Also, does the "simpler filters" also apply to determining what inbound > traffic should receive DetNet treatment? I don't think so as 6-tuple support is required in the detnet domain. > Section 4.3.2 > > future document. From an encapsulation perspective, the combination > of the 6-tuple i.e., the typical 5-tuple enhanced with the DSCP and > previously mentioned optional field (i.e., flow label), uniquely > identifies a DetNet IP flow. > > I agree with the directorate reviewer that the language here needs to > get cleaned up. Do you have a specif recommendation? > queue or shaper, is used by such flows. There are multiple methods > that MAY be used by an implementation to defend service delivery to > reserved DetNet flows, including but not limited to: > > nit: this doesn't seem like a normative MAY. agreed > Section 4.3.3 > > next hops. As mentioned above, the DetNet IP data plane identifies > flows using "6-tuple" header information as well as the additional > optional header field. DetNet generally allows for both flow- > > Please just name the "optional header field" field directly; there's no > need to be oblique about it. sure > Care should be taken when using different next hops for the same > 5-tuple. As discussed in [RFC7657], unexpected behavior can occur > when a single 5-tuple application flow experience reordering due to > being split across multiple next hops. Understanding of the > > For some reason I thought the detnet architecture doc also had some > discussion of potential consequences of having a single flow split > across multiple paths, but all I can find is Section 3.2.2.2 that points > out there may be need to have additional buffering in such cases, in > order to equalize delays. (Maybe I'm thinking of a different detnet > document, though I'm not sure which one that would be.) we're not really supporting such splits in this document, which is more specific than the architecture document. > application and transport protocol impact of using different next > hops for the same 6-tuple is required. Again, this impacts path > > I don't think I understand why we went from "5-tuple" to "6-tuple" in > the same paragraph. good catch.  This should be 5-tuple > Section 4.4 > > flow identification. DetNet IP flows can be aggregated using any of > the 6-tuple, and an additional optional field (i.e., flow label). > > Similarly to the previous comments, perhaps this should be "any of the > 6-tuple and flow label"? There's no need to add "optional" when already > subject to "using any of". I think I prefer the current phrasing as it won't lead someone to get confused on if the field is required. > Section 5.1 > > IP and higher layer protocol header information is used to identify > DetNet flows. All DetNet implementations that support this document > MUST identify individual DetNet flows based on the set of information > identified in this section. Note, that additional flow > > Does this requirement apply even to those implementations that have no > need to act at flow-level granularity, e.g., a router that only provide > DetNet service for aggregated flows, as recommended in Section 4.4? Yes. > The configuration and control information used to identify an > individual DetNet flow MUST be ordered by an implementation. > Implementations MUST support a fixed order when identifying flows, > and MUST identify a DetNet flow by the first set of matching flow > information. > > I'm a little surprised that this type of determinism is only an > implementation-level requirement. If I'm understanding correctly, this > requirement would still allow for two different implementations to use > different rules for flow identification, and thus, potentially, to map a > single end-to-end flow to different classes of service. This is based on the management (yang)  or control plane protocol semantics.  We would expect each to cover such unambiguously. > Section 5.1.1.3 > > An implementation MUST support flow identification based on the next > protocol values defined in Section 5.1.2. Other, non-zero values, > MUST be used for flow identification. Implementations SHOULD allow > > I don't understand what distinction we're trying to draw between flow > identification based on the values defined in Section 5.1.2 and flow > identification based on other (non-zero) values. Aren't they both > MUST-level requirements, as written? This paragraph has morphed as the doc evolved.  How about:               Implementations of this document MUST support DetNet flow               identification based on the IPv4 Protocol field when               processing IPv4 packets, and the IPv6 Next Header Field               when processing IPv6 packets. This includes               the next protocol values defined in Section 5.1.2 and other               non-zero values. (Alvaro may be happier with this change too) > > for these fields to be ignored for a specific DetNet flow. > > side note: it seems like we're using "flow" to mean a couple different > (but similar) things in this paragraph (e.g., "considering IPv4 > Protocol/IPv6 Next Header to be distinct or not"). Perhaps that's > unavioidable, though. > > Section 5.1.1.4 > > Traffic Class Field when processing IPv6 packets. Implementations > MUST support list based matching of DSCP values, where the list is > > nit: hyphenate "list-based matching" Sure > Section 6 > > Information identifying a DetNet flow is ordered and implementations > use the first match. This can, for example, be used to provide a > > [this bit might perhaps be affected if my previous comment about > implementation-specific results in any changes] here's the new phrasing from the discussion with alvaro:             An implementation MUST support ordering of the             set of information information used to identify an             individual DetNet flow > DetNet service for a specific UDP flow, with unique Source and > Destination Port field values, while providing a different service > for the aggregate of all other flows with that same UDP Destination > Port value. > > [and this part actually seems to be setting at least an expectation that > the order is tied down more tightly than just "implementation specific". > Is this order perhaps something that the controller plane is expected to > provision?]. yes -- as stated above... > Section 7 > > We discuss elsewhere the need for end systems to (paraphrasing) "not > shoot themself in the foot", i.e., actually provide the resources > necessary to meet DetNet traffic guarantees. For the case of DN > attached systems that are behind a sub-network (e.g., ES2 in Figure 3), > are there also considerations on the ability of that sub-network to > provide the necessary level of service? Yes -- although this is a consideration below IP - e.g., addressed via 802.1TSN > Is there a need for synchronization of information about DetNet flows? > For example, would the controller plane need to ensure that information > about a new flow is fully propagated to the entire DetNet domain before > any traffic on that flow starts to flow? For the detnet service to be delivered end to end - certainly. From a traffic protection/isolation standpoint, I don't think so as this is no differ4ent than an IP flow existing on a network without any detnet state > If an attacker knows the 6-tuple used by a DetNet flow, isn't there a > risk that they could use IP-level spoofing to generate traffic that gets > classified as a DetNet flow, potentially causing that flow to exceed its > reservation and get erminated? sure, but how would it enter the detnet network?  I'd expect the traffic to be dropped at the domain boundary. > This may be a slightly different risk > than the one discussed in the last paragraph as requiring policing at > the input of the DetNet domain. (This is related to the "source address > spoofing" risk that Bob Briscoe raised.) > > Security considerations for DetNet are described in detail in > [I-D.ietf-detnet-security]. General security considerations are > described in [RFC8655]. This section considers exclusively security > > side note: the wording of these first two sentences feels a little > strange, as if the two documents should be somehow the same but are not. > Perhaps: > > % Detailed security considerations for DetNet are catalogued in > % [I-D.ietf-detnet-security], and a more general (abbreviated) treatment > % is provided in [RFC8655]. sure. > Also, it looks like the comments I made on 2020-04-23 regarding > draft-ietf-detnet-security (as a side note in my ballot position on > draft-ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework-04) remain applicable: > > % The referenced document (now at -09) seems significantly improved from > % when I previously made an in-passing review of the -03 > % (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/jZLodXBmQa7ZFDbBIvDO_xCDD0E/), > % however, some of the issues I mentioned there remain, at least in part > % (e.g., mentioning the use of HMAC without a colocated discussion of > % the need for key distribution and having a taxonomy of threats titled > % "threat model"). > > Security aspects which are unique to DetNet are those whose aim is to > provide the specific quality of service aspects of DetNet, which are > primarily to deliver data flows with extremely low packet loss rates > and bounded end-to-end delivery latency. > > I recognize that this is essentially verbatim from RFC 8655, but it > still reads somewhat strangely to me: specifically, it seems to say that > there are "security aspects [...] whose aim is to provide [QoS, low > packet loss, and bounded latency]", and I don't think it's the security > aspects specifically that aim to provide those. Rather, I think it's > the overall goal of DetNet to provide those attributes, and there are > some security aspepcts specific to attempting to provide those > attributes. I do agree.  The current text came about through lots of discussions with other security minded folks, so would prefer to leave it unless you strongly object. > The primary considerations for the data plane is to maintain > integrity of data and delivery of the associated DetNet service > traversing the DetNet network. Application flows can be protected > through whatever means is provided by the underlying technology. For > example, encryption may be used, such as that provided by IPSec > [RFC4301] for IP flows and/or by an underlying sub-net using MACSec > [IEEE802.1AE-2018] for IP over Ethernet (Layer-2) flows. > > It's good that you call this out, so thank you for that. > I'd suggest a slight addition, prefacing the sentence that currently > starts with "Application flows" with a lead-in that "Since no > DetNet-specific fields are available for DetNet IP, data integrity must > be provided by a lower (or, potentially, higher) layer; application > flows can [...]". how about:         Since no DetNet-specific fields are available in the DetNet IP         data plane, the integrity and confidentiality of application flows ... > I'd also consider noting that providing guaranteed > delivery is impossible in the face of a sufficiently powerful attacker > (that can drop all traffic, cut fiber, etc.), so the attacker in the > DetNet threat model is necessarily slightly weaker than a typical BCP 72 > threat model. Do you have a specific text proposal? > > Section 11.1 > > The way in which RFC 3473 is used does not seem to require a normative > reference, to me. nice catch! > (RFC 4301 is perhaps in a similar situation, though given that we need > normative references to 4302 and 4303, it doesn't stick out as much.) > > Section 11.2 > > Was it considered to make draft-ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework a > normative reference? yes, but it's an informational document so didn't want the downref. > The reference in Section 3 that says "common data > plane procedures and control information for all DetNet data planes" can > be found in it makes me wonder whether it contains information that I > need to know in order to use detnet-ip properly. > Changes covered here can be previewed at: https://github.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/tree/working/lb/iesg-0625 https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc.cgi?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/working/lb/iesg-0625/ip/draft-ietf-detnet-ip.xml Thank you! Lou From nobody Thu Jun 25 09:09:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D333A0C28 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 09:09:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NWvrLnb9ot47 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 09:09:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.23.142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC0683A0C36 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 09:09:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw14.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.14]) by gproxy4.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3269F177830 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 10:09:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id oURMj9b6kbxjpoURMjzLHX; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 10:09:28 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=a9AeC3aF c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=dLZJa+xiwSxG16/P+YVxDGlgEgI=:19 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10:nop_ipv6 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10:nop_charset_1 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10:nop_rcvd_month_year a=Vy_oeq2dmq0A:10:endurance_base64_authed_username_1 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=174xjjHKAAAA:20 a=VB46miiLAAAA:20 a=2eeNxKdoNduxLDxEKhoA:9 a=7Zwj6sZBwVKJAoWSPKxL6X1jA+E=:19 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10:nop_charset_2 a=mYAOWqAtFUkA:10:demote_hacked_domain_1 a=1dbGxDndw2gA:10:demote_hacked_domain_7 a=-RoEEKskQ1sA:10:nop_election2020_name_body a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=bUYMtP1BCEZGUFaocdha6uRMlDlGlI1R81bcSt8PO8o=; b=GeqtRNb31GR2CN4cIP/iP2WvU2 blUX+5CHp3SAj7z5mojeuVgoPbflmXx/Toql9C6I1pHfP3UzVGRa2CAAYcNYu6KDEYD2khIYYE5bo W8Ve+CuXYdqnTcTSGnCyPKjH4; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=13317 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1joURL-000uoR-RW; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 10:09:27 -0600 To: Robert Wilton , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman References: <159302015338.22546.11881186633509883643@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 12:09:24 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <159302015338.22546.11881186633509883643@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1joURL-000uoR-RW X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:13317 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 13 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Robert Wilton's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:09:37 -0000 Hi, Thank you for the comments.  Please see response (as co-author) in-line below. On 6/24/2020 1:35 PM, Robert Wilton via Datatracker wrote: > Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi, > > Thanks for this document. The concept seems pretty simple, I just have a few > comments. > > 3. DetNet IP Data Plane Overview > > In the introduction, I wondered whether it would be useful to mention that the > Detnet forwarding is based on the classification of the 6-tuple that is > programmed via the management plane with the next hop. E.g. introducing the > key forwarding concept defined in 5.2. sure, will add:  The DetNet controller plane, as defined in         , is responsible for providing each node         with the information needed to identify an handle each DetNet flow. > 4.2. DetNet Domain-Specific Considerations > > Are the sub networks shown in Figure 4 all detnet aware supporting the service > function? If so, it may be helpful to explicitly clarify this. > > 4.3.3. Path Selection > > Like the other reviewers, I found the terminology around using 5-tuple/6-tuples > slightly confusing in places. In particular, the text in 4.3.3 regarding 5 > tuples seemed confusing. I basically interpreted the text as saying that > 5-tuple forwarding already has these issues that must be avoided, and 6 tuple > forwarding is no different. yes, with the caveat that some language has been tweaked in addressing previous comments. > Should it also mention that EMCP should be avoided as part of this path > selection section? It's mentioned latter in the document. Isn't that sufficient? > I note that there is an informative reference to ietf-detnet-yang. I wasn't > sure whether an informative reference to YANG itself might also be worth adding. I don't think so.  Is that okay? > > Regards, > Rob > Changes covered here can be previewed at: https://github.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/tree/working/lb/iesg-0625 https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc.cgi?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/working/lb/iesg-0625/ip/draft-ietf-detnet-ip.xml Thank you! Lou > > From nobody Thu Jun 25 09:26:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35D5E3A0CB9 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 09:26:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UrGoGddVhuHC for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 09:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy10-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy10-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.20.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C82F3A0CBA for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 09:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw10.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.10]) by gproxy10.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 325411405BA for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 10:26:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id oUhhjooEE1R8BoUhhj9Tvr; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 10:26:21 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=L7Izvdb8 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=dLZJa+xiwSxG16/P+YVxDGlgEgI=:19 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10:nop_ipv6 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10:nop_charset_1 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10:nop_rcvd_month_year a=Vy_oeq2dmq0A:10:endurance_base64_authed_username_1 a=_Gakbj2AK0AA:10:nop_election2020_name_subject a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=mwYyNJ8cxXdys1BWldoA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10:nop_charset_2 a=mYAOWqAtFUkA:10:demote_hacked_domain_1 a=1dbGxDndw2gA:10:demote_hacked_domain_7 a=lvNDOE9i95YA:10:nop_election2020_name_body a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 a=pHzHmUro8NiASowvMSCR:22 a=nt3jZW36AmriUCFCBwmW:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=VW9mSZ0tUQEWVIrD+zRaWw28L4aFHG8H1LcDIZjNSwM=; b=CMbMBxrz+v3CBrHm8kftCbYSBz RCtnzDHF0LgV4dSS7X/mx4HChNmkC0zZHK9/CBISAxKvfoRA/iadijBn0LqlI205BLmPapddXsK1p De+d8NEsE0BT3clQAFD4Gmzgs; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=22423 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1joUhg-000zf4-QC; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 10:26:20 -0600 To: Warren Kumari , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman References: <159304144303.23392.12428421340026282601@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <2b056bce-0a0a-9ca2-f350-8124464085d9@labn.net> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 12:26:07 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <159304144303.23392.12428421340026282601@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1joUhg-000zf4-QC X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:22423 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 22 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Warren Kumari's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:26:27 -0000 Hi Warren, Thanks for the comments.  It sounds like you are just echoing/reinforcing Alvaro's main points so would like to keep the conversation on that thread.  Is that okay? Are there any other points you'd like to discuss? thanks, Lou On 6/24/2020 7:30 PM, Warren Kumari via Datatracker wrote: > Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm balloting NoObj in the "I read the protocol action, and I trust the > sponsoring AD so have no problem." / "I have no cycles" sense. Due to other > work, I was not able to review this document nearly as thoroughly as I would > have liked, but I *do* support Alvaro's (and others) DISCUSS - there are many > places where the document says that the network MUST do something, but without > the something being particularly well defined;I'm sure that the authors / > DetNet WG understand what these are, but it's not clear from the document > itself -- I'm guessing that this is defined in other documents, but I wasn't > able to easily find them. > > I was mystified by " For some of the protocols 5-tuples and 6-tuples cannot be > used because the port information is not available (e.g., ICMP, IPSec ESP). > Same can be valid for flow aggregates. " - is this that the 5/6 tuples cannot > be used for flow aggregates? I went to try and find more info on flow > aggregates, and looked in ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework (which, like many of > the referenced draft-detnet- documents should be Normative references), but it > didn't seem to have much detail (other than that "There are many techniques to > achieve aggregation" -- where is how flow aggregation actually works > documented? This document (S4.4) says that: flow aggregation "is an important > technique for improving > scaling by reducing the state per hop", but without understanding how flows > are aggregated, and the state needed per flow, this is hard to evaluate. In > addition "In either case, the management or control function that provisions > the aggregate flows must ensure that adequate resources are allocated and > configured to provide combined service requirements of the individual > flows." -- if this "of the individual flows", or "of the aggregate flows"? > Presumably there will be a difference. > > I found Section "5.3. DetNet IP Traffic Treatment Procedures" to be very terse > -- I was expecting to read this and understand what *exactly* the IP Traffic > Treatment Procedures are - instead it seemed to feel more like "Implementations > must make sure that they provide the service that has been configured". The > section says: " Typical mechanisms used to provide different treatment to > different flows includes the allocation of system resources (such as queues and > buffers) and provisioning or related parameters (such as shaping, and > policing). " -- but this all feels fairly circular - where is the treatment of > traffic "when operating in an IP packet switched network." actually defined? If > I'm building a router/switch/similar, and what to provide support for DetNet > over IP, what *exactly* do I do with traffic once it has been identified? How > do I queue it differently? What happens if I cannot meet the requirement? Where > is this documented? > > Apologies for not being able to review this in the depth it deserves, > W > > > > From nobody Thu Jun 25 10:09:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D86D93A0DA7 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 10:09:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nw2AeSQL_pVb for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 10:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy3-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy3-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.30.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58B153A0DAB for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 10:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CMGW (unknown [10.9.0.13]) by gproxy3.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2229740317 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 11:09:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id oVNAjZumd2tTHoVNAjPbZ2; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 11:09:12 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=Kug94SeN c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=dLZJa+xiwSxG16/P+YVxDGlgEgI=:19 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10 a=Vy_oeq2dmq0A:10 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=174xjjHKAAAA:20 a=VB46miiLAAAA:20 a=__p5dzduCw639lckphMA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=mYAOWqAtFUkA:10 a=1dbGxDndw2gA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=XMYcca/8fPdVkIHMkk78Ny5P3m+Ld/GGWh56Gxdx7TI=; b=lAVkQ6f2urJHGl8bVRGoLRnQND h4UDysc4fhvatb214UUNF8zSbymaZWlP7khZL82zKGJ6UrCRBvvXciCirx9VZ+q9fLn2fACY2F9pA KAp8TYIn6mzrX3fITCj341xJM; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=45807 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1joVN9-001CQn-Qy; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 11:09:11 -0600 To: =?UTF-8?Q?=c3=89ric_Vyncke?= , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman References: <159309010508.1876.16540631536488836780@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <7a276cb6-6994-3cfe-c247-865bbb8f2d1c@labn.net> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 13:09:08 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <159309010508.1876.16540631536488836780@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1joVN9-001CQn-Qy X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:45807 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 9 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Org: HG=bhcustomer;ORG=bluehost; X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-ie?= =?utf-8?q?tf-detnet-ip-06=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 17:09:15 -0000 Hi, Thank you for the comments.  Please see response (as co-author) in-line below. On 6/25/2020 9:01 AM, Éric Vyncke via Datatracker wrote: > Éric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thank you for the work put into this document. > > I support Roman's first DISCUSS. > > Please find below a couple on non-blocking COMMENTs; but, I would really > appreciate a reply/answer/comment on all my COMMENTs. > > I hope that this helps to improve the document, > > Regards, > > -éric > > == COMMENTS == > > Please bear with my lack of DetNet expertise... but I have to ask the following > question: how are IP fragments (i.e. lacking transport ports) processed? as > they cannot match the 6-tuple. they won't match.  Generally DetNet applications are expected to operate with fixed / maximum sized frames that are smaller than MTU. Having this called out as a consideration certainly is reasonable.  How about adding the following to section 4.1:           An important additional consideration for DetNet-aware end           systems is avoiding IP fragmentation.  Full 6-tuple flow           identification is not possible on IP fragments as fragments           don't include the transport headers or their port           information. As such, it is important that applications and/or           end-systems use an IP packet size that will avoid           fragmentation within the network when sending DetNet flows.           The maximum size can be learned via path MTU discovery, and ,  or via           the controller plane.  Note that path MTU discovery relies on           ICMP, which may not follow the same path as an individual           DetNet flow. and to section 6:               For end systems, an optional maximum IP packet size               that should be used for that outgoing DetNet IP flow. > Related question: what about ICMP messages? They > are often critical to a flow (PMTUd for instance, or traceroute) and should > perhaps inherit the DetNet service? This will be up to the controller (management and/or control) plane . > -- Abstract -- > Beside being the smallest abstract I have ever read on an IETF document, I also > wonder about the wording "IP packet switched network". sorry, sometimes my butterfly gateway days show through. > May be I am a purist, > but, IP packet are forwarded and not switched. => recommend to add more meat in > the abstract (notably differences with diffserv and intserv) *AND* remove the > 'switched' word. sure.         This document specifies the DetNet data plane operation for IP hosts         and routers that provide DetNet service to IP encapsulated data. No         DetNet-specific encapsulation is defined to support IP flows; instead         the existing IP and higher layer protocol header information is used to         support flow identification and DetNet service delivery. This         document builds on the DetNet Architecture and Data Plane Framework. > > -- Section 4.5 -- > " While the DetNet IP data plane must support bidirectional DetNet > flows, there are no special bidirectional features with respect to > the data plane other than the need for the two directions of a co- > routed bidirectional flow to take the same path." > > This section does not use normative wording and I wonder whether the 'need' to > take the same path will always be true as some links have different throughput > up/down or their link loads could be different. I agree with you.  How about:           While the DetNet IP data plane must support bidirectional           DetNet flows, there are no special bidirectional features within           the data plane.  The special case of co-routed bidirectional           DetNet flows are           solely represented at the management and control plane levels,           without specific support or knowledge within the DetNet data           plane.  Fate sharing and associated or co-routed           bidirectional flows can be managed at the control level. > -- Section 5.1.2.1. -- > " The rules defined in this section only apply when the IPv4 Protocol > or IPv6 Next Header Field contains the IANA defined value for UDP or > TCP." > > Is the intent to ignore those field when there is an IPv6 extension header > between the IP and transport headers ? Same question for section 5.1.2.3. yes, that's the current "simplified" functional definition.  (At least as I read it.) > > Does it also mean that SCTP is not supported? It is supported, but only on the aggregate protocol level.  SCTP did come up at some point and the consensus was that it's header parsing should *not* be in the base/core DetNet IP document, but that the document should allow for such in a future RFC.  At least that's how I recall the consensus. Changes covered here can be previewed at: https://github.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/tree/working/lb/iesg-0625 https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc.cgi?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/working/lb/iesg-0625/ip/draft-ietf-detnet-ip.xml Thank you! Lou > > > From nobody Thu Jun 25 11:41:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C2FD3A0F7F; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 11:41:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gpuJ3PR_mPeF; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 11:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x42c.google.com (mail-wr1-x42c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C3DB3A0F48; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 11:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x42c.google.com with SMTP id h5so6924059wrc.7; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 11:41:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vi1sw9yzDKpz+75YcV9vu2v27e0x4b3ZtALt1mWMOms=; b=rN+lwgbbBYYImeoiYt/NbOJldf4zv6JrQrIJwJnHd9a5izJs4+tE2EY/ait6iSaCxV mxzYp5bu5eP2Mf3Im5CAcE+8miZhUtesBiuJnsbC2Dx9kKECpY6poYwzAgH0I3Oqd4WK GIMaqKbWKd57p/WAg37yCsISnWCf++uQQ3Q6H5KfLNr7/0WgKxwa4ezo/AkhZF8CcGf7 qHDrIUuvO2n3oyKq7Sha3EOS1Q9pNr12mb28vU25T/wAOtrwsquMd3S9Yqi3fb3IT2KT 8uQv1CMoGIl4o4eAGbDarAzAnuhZPQPs08vfar3sCoTtUwyarFSRFkJQUpJJ6UatmvsL rNrw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vi1sw9yzDKpz+75YcV9vu2v27e0x4b3ZtALt1mWMOms=; b=YALHFsHmj6WwBZP2cL4si7aTlqbuQCwfg7+EFOOo0y5AlUCoeadf7If6MXbgK/yIdU eTFDOCwrtwwPyWnY+JeCM7WVAERPXoEo2//wQF+YjqWW/NHs2WfXmICcgnNamg/0zKvs N1CdBG08rkffR6iHNdfUPJvFv7RSdCpB1RUrmm8Vv0wTU8IEjjhK0oYJjzx+T2OktVcD vsA4PxFnGI14a5YK05S6Hr8Y/8k2E0cYoWaN+KQo8CRdKovZHegivuzyb4aVPGIbe3f5 RWB8ujmt/R7FxzY1ahb787m2Xhc/hOuz9VUC2+qXV8eh+KiEr5fzACxy/EHXb06o29Ix 01Nw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533qitOAI0rVff/wmZ2cQAU3eM5VWaCoymYxNGTprYZGcApJPTLw f/5vak9A4MD+8kYEpm9aMLvrLh2cnE8UbBpPE50= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwqR5tPx3JLmnJQAw93Pk2mnUh55ef5ADYLO3ilKy9Su+QzxhJW5zZVLNRo5/KUW6GCwGilkQxa+6OAGJnoQK8= X-Received: by 2002:adf:8462:: with SMTP id 89mr23141474wrf.420.1593110468735; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 11:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 11:41:07 -0700 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: <403116c7-6a80-9368-91ac-a0f0d1ba2cb0@labn.net> References: <159292690639.3288.6217558507015891728@ietfa.amsl.com> <403116c7-6a80-9368-91ac-a0f0d1ba2cb0@labn.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 11:41:07 -0700 Message-ID: To: Lou Berger , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman , detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:41:14 -0000 On June 25, 2020 at 10:25:59 AM, Lou Berger wrote: Lou: Hi! > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > DISCUSS: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... Thanks for the explanation! > > It is ok to define the mechanisms in a different document -- but there > > are no specific references. What exactly is this document requiring > > (MUST)? If there are no specifics on the mechanisms (or where they are > > defined), how can an implementation comply with this document? > > This is a fair point, but I don't see where we have specific queuing > mechanisms defined. Now we certainly have on-wire behavior defined, e,g, > RFC 2212, and others have defined ones IEEE 802.1Qch. Our expectation > is that the management (YANG) and future control plane documents will > specific which forwarding treatment is expected for specific flows. We > also expect that the market (users/providers and vendors) will decide > ehcih are appropriate for different use cases and products just as is > done for MPLS-TE in general. My main concern is the combination of normative language (MUST/SHALL) + no specifics. =C2=A0To solve it, I need you to either add specifics or not use normative language. Defining mechanisms elsewhere, or letting the market decide, is ok. If that is where the WG is, then simply don't use normative language in these descriptions. If you come up with alternate text, then I'll clear my DISCUSS. > > What are the interoperability consequences if not all nodes comply with > > the same set of (undefined) mechanisms? > > The traffic delivery won't be what's expected, and those vendors with > behavior not suited to particular applications won't be selected for > such networks. Again, taking a page from the MPLS-TE market place... Please add something like that to the text. =C2=A0There are several places (e.g., the 3 examples in the DISCUSS and some comments below) that need that type of disclaimer/guidance. I wish there was a Deployment Considerations section, but that is probably too much to ask for a few additional sentences. ... > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > COMMENT: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > (1) =C2=A74.2 (DetNet Domain-Specific Considerations): ... > Possible consequences of not having such an agreement include > having some flows interfering with other flows, and for a > the traffic treatment expected for a service not being > provided. Sure. =C2=A0As mentioned above, the same type of text is needed in multiple= places. > > (2) =C2=A74.3.1 (Class of Service): "...DetNet nodes...MUST ensure that= the > > CoS service classes do not impact the congestion protection and latency > > control mechanisms used to provide DetNet QoS." ... > > (b) Maybe it's just me, but I would think that the requirement is not a= t > > a node level (each node doing something), but within a DetNet domain; > > IOW, this sounds more like a provisioning requirement (even probably > > related to the text from =C2=A76 I quoted above). > > I certainly agree there is a large interaction here. Then this is another opportunity for text related to the need to have the same/similar behavior/agreement/provisioning...even if the general expectation is per node and not explicitly defined. ... > > (4) =C2=A75.1.1.3 (IPv4 Protocol and IPv6 Next Header Fields): ... > > BTW, 0 is the IPv6 HbH option -- do you really want to exclude it? > > I think so, but this was not extensively discussed. Do you think it's > the wrong call? I don't know. =C2=A0But if all the other EHs are not excluded there must be a good reason. =C2=A0I can imagine ways to use HbH to maybe carry other flow identification parameter...for later use. =C2=A0Just thinking out loud... ... > > (8) I believe that these references should be Normative: > > I-D.ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework and RFC8655. > > the data plane framework is informative so generally references to > informative docs are informative. Nope. A normative reference is one that "must be read to understand or implement the technology"...regardless of the status. https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/normative-informative-ref= erences/ Thanks! Alvaro. From nobody Thu Jun 25 12:57:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D6933A0FFC for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 12:57:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8f3kk17G_Gyp for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 12:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy3-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy3-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.30.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 867C93A0FFD for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 12:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw12.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.12]) by gproxy3.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DBCA403BA for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 13:57:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id oXztj5UEqWYdhoXztjxHiy; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 13:57:22 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Le4SFAXi c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=dLZJa+xiwSxG16/P+YVxDGlgEgI=:19 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10:nop_ipv6 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10:nop_charset_1 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10:nop_rcvd_month_year a=Vy_oeq2dmq0A:10:endurance_base64_authed_username_1 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=datVY8_FT1W7_NGbXEAA:9 a=TvmzcRauYV863iFB:21 a=9_KjW8anQ44VDhwE:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10:nop_charset_2 a=-RoEEKskQ1sA:10:nop_election2020_name_body a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=05wHYkFC3L9WmiFrV+rSkdvGOgWyklCxyNlha4adov8=; b=uOIg5ttO88sJanGISdULAePXFp 4+wYnAt81i1sjXi6H/bqD//M1Ur2IhXnAbLFP5Iuq/ZLlJV+bS3MB9GN1dnPQq4EXsZrHLxdcY0Bp ef1CBwFFQWHYlSAxztbxdpCTE; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=39941 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1joXzt-001yIf-Mx; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 13:57:21 -0600 To: Alvaro Retana , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman , detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org References: <159292690639.3288.6217558507015891728@ietfa.amsl.com> <403116c7-6a80-9368-91ac-a0f0d1ba2cb0@labn.net> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 15:57:20 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1joXzt-001yIf-Mx X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:39941 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 16 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Org: HG=bhcustomer;ORG=bluehost; X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 19:57:26 -0000 Hi Alvaro, On 6/25/2020 2:41 PM, Alvaro Retana wrote: > On June 25, 2020 at 10:25:59 AM, Lou Berger wrote: > > > Lou: > > Hi! > > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> DISCUSS: >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ... > > Thanks for the explanation! > > > >>> It is ok to define the mechanisms in a different document -- but there >>> are no specific references. What exactly is this document requiring >>> (MUST)? If there are no specifics on the mechanisms (or where they are >>> defined), how can an implementation comply with this document? >> This is a fair point, but I don't see where we have specific queuing >> mechanisms defined. Now we certainly have on-wire behavior defined, e,g, >> RFC 2212, and others have defined ones IEEE 802.1Qch. Our expectation >> is that the management (YANG) and future control plane documents will >> specific which forwarding treatment is expected for specific flows. We >> also expect that the market (users/providers and vendors) will decide >> ehcih are appropriate for different use cases and products just as is >> done for MPLS-TE in general. > My main concern is the combination of normative language (MUST/SHALL) > + no specifics.  To solve it, I need you to either add specifics or > not use normative language. can you point to an RFC that has language that you'd like to see? RFC3290 has some nice language, but is informational. Either way, I'll work with the co authors on wording to address this comment (which I think is limited to traffic treatment.) Lou > Defining mechanisms elsewhere, or letting the market decide, is ok. > If that is where the WG is, then simply don't use normative language > in these descriptions. > If you come up with alternate text, then I'll clear my DISCUSS. > > >>> What are the interoperability consequences if not all nodes comply with >>> the same set of (undefined) mechanisms? >> The traffic delivery won't be what's expected, and those vendors with >> behavior not suited to particular applications won't be selected for >> such networks. Again, taking a page from the MPLS-TE market place... > Please add something like that to the text.  There are several places > (e.g., the 3 examples in the DISCUSS and some comments below) that > need that type of disclaimer/guidance. > > I wish there was a Deployment Considerations section, but that is > probably too much to ask for a few additional sentences. > > > > ... >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> COMMENT: >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> (1) §4.2 (DetNet Domain-Specific Considerations): > ... >> Possible consequences of not having such an agreement include >> having some flows interfering with other flows, and for a >> the traffic treatment expected for a service not being >> provided. > Sure.  As mentioned above, the same type of text is needed in multiple places. > > > > >>> (2) §4.3.1 (Class of Service): "...DetNet nodes...MUST ensure that the >>> CoS service classes do not impact the congestion protection and latency >>> control mechanisms used to provide DetNet QoS." > ... >>> (b) Maybe it's just me, but I would think that the requirement is not at >>> a node level (each node doing something), but within a DetNet domain; >>> IOW, this sounds more like a provisioning requirement (even probably >>> related to the text from §6 I quoted above). >> I certainly agree there is a large interaction here. > Then this is another opportunity for text related to the need to have > the same/similar behavior/agreement/provisioning...even if the general > expectation is per node and not explicitly defined. > > > > ... >>> (4) §5.1.1.3 (IPv4 Protocol and IPv6 Next Header Fields): > ... >>> BTW, 0 is the IPv6 HbH option -- do you really want to exclude it? >> I think so, but this was not extensively discussed. Do you think it's >> the wrong call? > I don't know.  But if all the other EHs are not excluded there must be > a good reason.  I can imagine ways to use HbH to maybe carry other > flow identification parameter...for later use.  Just thinking out > loud... > > > > ... >>> (8) I believe that these references should be Normative: >>> I-D.ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework and RFC8655. >> the data plane framework is informative so generally references to >> informative docs are informative. > Nope. > > A normative reference is one that "must be read to understand or > implement the technology"...regardless of the status. > > https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/normative-informative-references/ > > > Thanks! > > Alvaro. > From nobody Thu Jun 25 13:06:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 186713A0DB8 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 13:06:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7rJFCGkiTzTy for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 13:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x230.google.com (mail-lj1-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73C4E3A0FE9 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 13:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x230.google.com with SMTP id q19so7931539lji.2 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 13:05:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+ufI9szclm/nnTWmntciBxvC2joocUy3X0MBtHfsNkg=; b=o8ZISTmXBFAcFft9dx7XoosKr5rYrnwJPflFHJtycW554LKQi/Ag087I0rAk7hb96c jmSTFZbFeLYbFGoEG0H6yZMdCOQVcvnk/u2aq+aepaRzj4TBzEIHK/2EHGDVgL2OJ4QQ Du+d1fXdHGuelGuXL9pMo5QJwIf5jyc8KD3G1QcwGTDxisLZiCe3w0cmnRr5X+hEZvWD lB12vJKfqOxRmn6TbHP+mR5jOkq4xvrHLoha2HWIXP6k+pmNbi3Khbglzbe66kDdyv1A WCMpZCFkkthvpxZ0tch4dsDTpAN/aG1Y4gP3vKdn2uuDZOLS/ONw3iwR6QX/k2+guTPN iUCQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+ufI9szclm/nnTWmntciBxvC2joocUy3X0MBtHfsNkg=; b=q+i4784OpWOSV10G8fNNuxZFxM8mNccxqewoSPh39rnOAARD5foZwzZ3n9Unnkw5xp jnaz/Dvw2tw2ijcPeTcNkF4jToORHwViXQE5WZWuiGyWbGvgmp98WHJJxJeZVZhhg/be ykYxX54HYsXaIp6C+6d2kNPa7eN/6Z9bzd1WDWXmru5f2aDDRMYaJtO+sEgJ6/t7xNI3 H8n1u6DKW+YmdEjkRxhgn/DkrYcGlBXR7o/M6LHPbZ0/PkSlSstVWi9iUoPobNHdPVYw VvZqPpDdeeLuoK3YBXt7pub4eP5DK8itu4kPEhWrUMu1chodHAO1ppOBt7xEZiJ76c63 A9JA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530xzIB+wyzri7zEj12hm3Ax5idVlden1myBPOQz85zGZTyAhlbP 9jyXeslapm9rLcYahrHB0jgAEPZRAlqW/M2PhShDsg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzzfrFH7zWdvPENEJdpgXMynDKf9Ieo0cASIov4UrlVlbk+XU5qbRsLqcuROwVXc73l5pyGAPpfACHnr2YWMtw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:1045:: with SMTP id x5mr16756182ljm.153.1593115555123; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 13:05:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159304144303.23392.12428421340026282601@ietfa.amsl.com> <2b056bce-0a0a-9ca2-f350-8124464085d9@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <2b056bce-0a0a-9ca2-f350-8124464085d9@labn.net> From: Warren Kumari Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:05:18 -0400 Message-ID: To: Lou Berger Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bfe60405a8ee1ec3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Warren Kumari's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 20:06:01 -0000 --000000000000bfe60405a8ee1ec3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:26 PM Lou Berger wrote: > Hi Warren, > > Thanks for the comments. It sounds like you are just > echoing/reinforcing Alvaro's main points so would like to keep the > conversation on that thread. Is that okay? > > Yup. W > Are there any other points you'd like to discuss? > > thanks, > > Lou > > On 6/24/2020 7:30 PM, Warren Kumari via Datatracker wrote: > > Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for > > draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > Please refer to > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > COMMENT: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > I'm balloting NoObj in the "I read the protocol action, and I trust the > > sponsoring AD so have no problem." / "I have no cycles" sense. Due to > other > > work, I was not able to review this document nearly as thoroughly as I > would > > have liked, but I *do* support Alvaro's (and others) DISCUSS - there are > many > > places where the document says that the network MUST do something, but > without > > the something being particularly well defined;I'm sure that the authors / > > DetNet WG understand what these are, but it's not clear from the document > > itself -- I'm guessing that this is defined in other documents, but I > wasn't > > able to easily find them. > > > > I was mystified by " For some of the protocols 5-tuples and 6-tuples > cannot be > > used because the port information is not available (e.g., ICMP, IPSec > ESP). > > Same can be valid for flow aggregates. " - is this that the 5/6 tuples > cannot > > be used for flow aggregates? I went to try and find more info on flow > > aggregates, and looked in ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework (which, like > many of > > the referenced draft-detnet- documents should be Normative references), > but it > > didn't seem to have much detail (other than that "There are many > techniques to > > achieve aggregation" -- where is how flow aggregation actually works > > documented? This document (S4.4) says that: flow aggregation "is an > important > > technique for improving > > scaling by reducing the state per hop", but without understanding > how flows > > are aggregated, and the state needed per flow, this is hard to > evaluate. In > > addition "In either case, the management or control function that > provisions > > the aggregate flows must ensure that adequate resources are > allocated and > > configured to provide combined service requirements of the individual > > flows." -- if this "of the individual flows", or "of the aggregate > flows"? > > Presumably there will be a difference. > > > > I found Section "5.3. DetNet IP Traffic Treatment Procedures" to be > very terse > > -- I was expecting to read this and understand what *exactly* the IP > Traffic > > Treatment Procedures are - instead it seemed to feel more like > "Implementations > > must make sure that they provide the service that has been configured". > The > > section says: " Typical mechanisms used to provide different treatment to > > different flows includes the allocation of system resources (such as > queues and > > buffers) and provisioning or related parameters (such as shaping, and > > policing). " -- but this all feels fairly circular - where is the > treatment of > > traffic "when operating in an IP packet switched network." actually > defined? If > > I'm building a router/switch/similar, and what to provide support for > DetNet > > over IP, what *exactly* do I do with traffic once it has been > identified? How > > do I queue it differently? What happens if I cannot meet the > requirement? Where > > is this documented? > > > > Apologies for not being able to review this in the depth it deserves, > > W > > > > > > > > > -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf --000000000000bfe60405a8ee1ec3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:26 PM Lou= Berger <lberger@labn.net> wr= ote:
Hi Warren,<= br>
Thanks for the comments.=C2=A0 It sounds like you are just
echoing/reinforcing Alvaro's main points so would like to keep the
conversation on that thread.=C2=A0 Is that okay?


Yup.
W

=C2=A0
Are there any other points you'd like to discuss?

thanks,

Lou

On 6/24/2020 7:30 PM, Warren Kumari via Datatracker wrote:
> Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<= br> > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut thi= s
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/i= esg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie= tf-detnet-ip/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
>
> I'm balloting NoObj in the "I read the protocol action, and I= trust the
> sponsoring AD so have no problem." / "I have no cycles"= sense. Due to other
> work, I was not able to review this document nearly as thoroughly as I= would
> have liked, but I *do* support Alvaro's (and others) DISCUSS - the= re are many
> places where the document says that the network MUST do something, but= without
> the something being particularly well defined;I'm sure that the au= thors /
> DetNet WG understand what these are, but it's not clear from the d= ocument
> itself -- I'm guessing that this is defined in other documents, bu= t I wasn't
> able to easily find them.
>
> I was mystified by " For some of the protocols 5-tuples and 6-tup= les cannot be
> used because the port information is not available (e.g., ICMP, IPSec = ESP).
> Same can be valid for flow aggregates. " - is this that the 5/6 t= uples cannot
> be used for flow aggregates? I went to try and find more info on flow<= br> > aggregates, and looked in ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework (which, lik= e many of
> the referenced draft-detnet- documents should be Normative references)= , but it
> didn't seem to have much detail (other than that "There are m= any techniques to
> achieve aggregation" -- where is how flow aggregation actually wo= rks
> documented? This document (S4.4) says that: flow aggregation "is = an important
> technique for improving
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0scaling by reducing the state per hop", but wi= thout understanding how flows
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0are aggregated, and the state needed per flow, this= is hard to evaluate. In
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0addition "In either case, the management or co= ntrol function that provisions
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the aggregate flows must ensure that adequate resou= rces are allocated and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0configured to provide combined service requirements= of the individual
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0flows." -- if this "of the individual flo= ws", or "of the aggregate flows"?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Presumably there will be a difference.
>
> I found Section "5.3.=C2=A0 DetNet IP Traffic Treatment Procedure= s" to be very terse
> -- I was expecting to read this and understand what *exactly* the IP T= raffic
> Treatment Procedures are - instead it seemed to feel more like "I= mplementations
> must make sure that they provide the service that has been configured&= quot;. The
> section says: " Typical mechanisms used to provide different trea= tment to
> different flows includes the allocation of system resources (such as q= ueues and
> buffers) and provisioning or related parameters (such as shaping, and<= br> > policing). " -- but this all feels fairly circular - where is the= treatment of
> traffic "when operating in an IP packet switched network." a= ctually defined? If
> I'm building a router/switch/similar, and what to provide support = for DetNet
> over IP, what *exactly* do I do with traffic once it has been identifi= ed? How
> do I queue it differently? What happens if I cannot meet the requireme= nt? Where
> is this documented?
>
> Apologies for not being able to review this in the depth it deserves,<= br> > W
>
>
>
>


--
I don't think the execution is relevant when= it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.
This is like putting ra= bid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen tho= se particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf<= /div>
--000000000000bfe60405a8ee1ec3-- From nobody Thu Jun 25 14:24:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFE3C3A102D for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 14:24:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NssMxAnjgKlG for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 14:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy2-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy2-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.18.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 556213A1026 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 14:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw15.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.15]) by gproxy2.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D89551E0CAA for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 15:24:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id oZM5jhdWeYpLeoZM5jXlwd; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 15:24:21 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=aMDeV41m c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=dLZJa+xiwSxG16/P+YVxDGlgEgI=:19 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10:nop_ipv6 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10:nop_charset_1 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10:nop_rcvd_month_year a=Vy_oeq2dmq0A:10:endurance_base64_authed_username_1 a=wU2YTnxGAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=174xjjHKAAAA:20 a=VB46miiLAAAA:20 a=AeqxH4jkoNTLTU44J3gA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10:nop_charset_2 a=-RoEEKskQ1sA:10:nop_election2020_name_body a=Yz9wTY_ffGCQnEDHKrcv:22 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:References:Cc:To:From:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=T4jn7Iz0pphqKuiqzMiNvCCiiClSN097ITwmEg7qaYM=; b=z+oauKi8xfmojPhrqeaJkkZhSC me82NucNVWsb476xd9rbA7bQK5cxRKQl2l7ZqCtmwh36ECZtgqS73EZXG9AvzBNeQAEbPLRownTqM YsdrMyj0nlWWa9nWuaqsjdyNn; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=39109 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1joZM5-002NVR-DW; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 15:24:21 -0600 From: Lou Berger To: Alvaro Retana , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman , detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org References: <159292690639.3288.6217558507015891728@ietfa.amsl.com> <403116c7-6a80-9368-91ac-a0f0d1ba2cb0@labn.net> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 17:24:17 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1joZM5-002NVR-DW X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:39109 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 6 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 21:24:24 -0000 Alvaro to be precise, you are looking for: section 4.3.1: s/MUST/must section 4.3.2: s/IP MUST/IP must section 5.3: s/MUST/must Right? I think that's fine as it translates to conformance being judged based on (a) this document, (b) a yang or control plane document, and (c) whichever traffic treatment RFCs/references the yang or control plane document reference.  This is reasonable (at least to me). I think you have two additional points below... > On June 25, 2020 at 3:57:22 PM, Lou Berger (lberger@labn.net > ) wrote: > ... >> >>> BTW, 0 is the IPv6 HbH option -- do you really want to exclude it? >> >> I think so, but this was not extensively discussed. Do you think it's >> >> the wrong call? >> > I don't know.  But if all the other EHs are not excluded there must be >> > a good reason.  I can imagine ways to use HbH to maybe carry other >> > flow identification parameter...for later use.  Just thinking out >> > loud... >> > okay, I'll make the change to allow for zero values (assuming no objections for others.) >> > >> > >> > ... >> >>> (8) I believe that these references should be Normative: >> >>> I-D.ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework and RFC8655. >> >> the data plane framework is informative so generally references to >> >> informative docs are informative. >> > Nope. >> > >> > A normative reference is one that "must be read to understand or >> > implement the technology"...regardless of the status. >> > >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/normative-informative-references/ >> >> > okay then. All, please look at the repo to see if you object/approve of the changes: https://github.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/compare/working/lb/iesg-0625 https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc.cgi?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/working/lb/iesg-0625/ip/draft-ietf-detnet-ip.xml Thank you!  Lou > >> > Thanks! >> > >> > Alvaro. >> > From nobody Thu Jun 25 19:29:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F9693A10F0; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 19:28:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id USRe10rZGTHp; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 19:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C0623A10CB; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 19:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 05Q2SkUE014875 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 25 Jun 2020 22:28:49 -0400 Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 19:28:46 -0700 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Lou Berger Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman Message-ID: <20200626022846.GD58278@kduck.mit.edu> References: <159301678986.2590.8134865738524436704@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 02:28:57 -0000 Hi Lou, Also in-line. On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 11:38:41AM -0400, Lou Berger wrote: > Hi Benjamin, > > Thank you for the comments/discuss.  Please see responses (as co-author) > in line below > > On 6/24/2020 12:39 PM, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker wrote: > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > > draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > COMMENT: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > The other ADs caught a bunch of editorial stuff that I'll try to not > > duplicate, though I do list a bunch of editorial stuff as well. > > > > Section 1 > > > > and routers that provide DetNet service to IP encapsulated data. No > > DetNet-specific encapsulation is defined to support IP flows, instead > > the existing IP and higher layer protocol header information is used > > to support flow identification and DetNet service delivery. Common > > > > nit: comma splice > > > > This document provides an overview of the DetNet IP data plane in > > Section 3, considerations that apply to providing DetNet services via > > the DetNet IP data plane in Section 4. Section 5 provides the > > > > nit: this looks like it's trying to be a list but failing, so it's an > > incomplete sentence. > > > > Section 3 > > > > Do we want to have a note anywhere in here about how information about > > which flows are DetNet flows and what behavior(s) they get (e.g., the > > controller plane, or perhaps a forward reference to section 5), to > > remind the reader about the architecture? > The above comments relate to text that has been modified based on > earlier responses. Fair enough. (And I do see "The DetNEt controller plane [...] is responsible for providing each node [...]" which should do the trick. Thanks!) > > Non-DetNet and DetNet IP packets are identical on the wire. > > > > I suggest a different word than "identical", perhaps > > "indistinguishable" (or maybe "the non-DetNet and DetNet IP packet > > layouts") > > how about > >           Non-DetNet and DetNet IP packets can have the same protocol >             header format on the wire. Seems reasonable. Maybe s/can//, though? I don't know of a case where the format is actually different. > > DetNet flow aggregation may be enabled via the use of wildcards, > > masks, lists, prefixes and ranges. IP tunnels may also be used to > > > > side note: I'd consider rewording so this doesn't sound like an > > exhaustive list. > > > > Figure 1 illustrates a DetNet enabled IP network. The DetNet enabled > > end systems originate IP encapsulated traffic that is identified > > within the DetNet domain as DetNet flows. Relay nodes understand the > > > > nit: I think the description of "identified" could be tightened up -- at > > present, one could read this as either "the DetNet ingress classifies IP > > traffic as DetNet or non DetNet, thus identifying the flows that are > > DetNet flows", or "within the DetNet domain, these flows (originated > > from the specific end systems) are identifiable as being DetNet flows". > added "...based on IP header information" Okay, thanks. > > As non-DetNet and DetNet IP packets are identical on the wire, from > > data plane perspective, the only difference is that there is flow- > > > > [whatever is done for "identical" above could be done here as well] > > nit: missing article before "data-plane perspective" > sure > > Section 4.1 > > > > IP flow identification means that DetNet must be aware of not only > > the format of the IP header, but also of the next protocol carried > > within an IP packet (see Section 5.1.1.3). > > > > The way this is written it seems to bind as "(must be aware of) (not > > only the format of) (the IP header) (but also of [the format of] the next > > protocol)", but following the reference, it seems to only require > > inspecting the value in the "next protocol" IP header field. > > There would, of course, *also* be a requirement to look into TCP/UDP > > headers to extract the ports needed for the 6-tuple, which is where I > > originally thought this was going, but given the apparent intent, my > > suggestion is to just s/next protocol/next protocol value/. > thanks > > End systems need to ensure that DetNet service requirements are met > > when processing packets associated to a DetNet flow. When forwarding > > > > We just said in the previous paragraph that end systems can be > > DetNet-unaware; how would such DetNet-unaware systems ensure that DetNet > > service requirements are met? > I'll rearrange the sentences to make clear what applies to aware end > systems. > > packets, this means that packets are appropriately shaped on > > > > Also, are end systems going to be *forwarding* packets? I thought that > > it was DetNet edge nodes (and transit/relay nodes) that would do so. > > s/forwarding/sending > > > Section 4.2 > > > > aware. Such routers identify DetNet flows based on the IP 6-tuple, > > and ensure that the DetNet service required traffic treatment is > > provided both on the node and on any attached sub-network. > > > > nit: I suggest hyphenating the compound adjective(s?) in "DetNet service > > required traffic treatment" or otherwise rewording it, as I'm not > > entirely clear on how to parse it. > > > > This solution provides DetNet functions end to end, but does so on a > > per link and sub-network basis. Congestion protection and latency > > > > We should probably note that there is a single point of failure at the > > routers/etc. that remove and reapply these functions. > > > > Note that not mixing DetNet and non-DetNet traffic within a single > > 5-tuple, as described above, enables simpler 5-tuple filters to be > > used (or re-used) at the edges of a DetNet network to prevent non- > > congestion-responsive DetNet traffic from escaping the DetNet domain. > > > > I'd consider s/described/recommended/ > I think I'll defer to the RFC editor on the above. Okay. > > Also, does the "simpler filters" also apply to determining what inbound > > traffic should receive DetNet treatment? > I don't think so as 6-tuple support is required in the detnet domain. Hmm, okay. > > Section 4.3.2 > > > > future document. From an encapsulation perspective, the combination > > of the 6-tuple i.e., the typical 5-tuple enhanced with the DSCP and > > previously mentioned optional field (i.e., flow label), uniquely > > identifies a DetNet IP flow. > > > > I agree with the directorate reviewer that the language here needs to > > get cleaned up. > > Do you have a specif recommendation? How about: From an encapsulation perspective, the combination of the 6-tuple (the typical 5-tuple enhanced by the DSCP) and potentially the flow label uniquely identifies a DetNet IP flow. > > queue or shaper, is used by such flows. There are multiple methods > > that MAY be used by an implementation to defend service delivery to > > reserved DetNet flows, including but not limited to: > > > > nit: this doesn't seem like a normative MAY. > agreed > > Section 4.3.3 > > > > next hops. As mentioned above, the DetNet IP data plane identifies > > flows using "6-tuple" header information as well as the additional > > optional header field. DetNet generally allows for both flow- > > > > Please just name the "optional header field" field directly; there's no > > need to be oblique about it. > sure > > Care should be taken when using different next hops for the same > > 5-tuple. As discussed in [RFC7657], unexpected behavior can occur > > when a single 5-tuple application flow experience reordering due to > > being split across multiple next hops. Understanding of the > > > > For some reason I thought the detnet architecture doc also had some > > discussion of potential consequences of having a single flow split > > across multiple paths, but all I can find is Section 3.2.2.2 that points > > out there may be need to have additional buffering in such cases, in > > order to equalize delays. (Maybe I'm thinking of a different detnet > > document, though I'm not sure which one that would be.) > we're not really supporting such splits in this document, which is more > specific than the architecture document. Okay. > > application and transport protocol impact of using different next > > hops for the same 6-tuple is required. Again, this impacts path > > > > I don't think I understand why we went from "5-tuple" to "6-tuple" in > > the same paragraph. > good catch.  This should be 5-tuple > > Section 4.4 > > > > flow identification. DetNet IP flows can be aggregated using any of > > the 6-tuple, and an additional optional field (i.e., flow label). > > > > Similarly to the previous comments, perhaps this should be "any of the > > 6-tuple and flow label"? There's no need to add "optional" when already > > subject to "using any of". > I think I prefer the current phrasing as it won't lead someone to get > confused on if the field is required. How would you feel about "and optionally also by the flow label"? (I'm just thinking about ways to avoid having to say "optional field" and the name of that field in close succession.) > > Section 5.1 > > > > IP and higher layer protocol header information is used to identify > > DetNet flows. All DetNet implementations that support this document > > MUST identify individual DetNet flows based on the set of information > > identified in this section. Note, that additional flow > > > > Does this requirement apply even to those implementations that have no > > need to act at flow-level granularity, e.g., a router that only provide > > DetNet service for aggregated flows, as recommended in Section 4.4? > Yes. Okay. > > The configuration and control information used to identify an > > individual DetNet flow MUST be ordered by an implementation. > > Implementations MUST support a fixed order when identifying flows, > > and MUST identify a DetNet flow by the first set of matching flow > > information. > > > > I'm a little surprised that this type of determinism is only an > > implementation-level requirement. If I'm understanding correctly, this > > requirement would still allow for two different implementations to use > > different rules for flow identification, and thus, potentially, to map a > > single end-to-end flow to different classes of service. > > This is based on the management (yang)  or control plane protocol > semantics.  We would expect each to cover such unambiguously. I think Alvaro made the same point as me in a more direct manner, and this got updated to be " An implementation MUST support ordering of the set of information information used to identify an individual DetNet flow." I had to read that a couple times to understand how it provided the property I was expecting (i.e., that there is an external source of order and the implementation has to cope with whatever such order it gets), but it seems like it will do the job. Or, hmm, was that down in section 6 and not here? > > Section 5.1.1.3 > > > > An implementation MUST support flow identification based on the next > > protocol values defined in Section 5.1.2. Other, non-zero values, > > MUST be used for flow identification. Implementations SHOULD allow > > > > I don't understand what distinction we're trying to draw between flow > > identification based on the values defined in Section 5.1.2 and flow > > identification based on other (non-zero) values. Aren't they both > > MUST-level requirements, as written? > > This paragraph has morphed as the doc evolved.  How about: > > >               Implementations of this document MUST support DetNet flow >               identification based on the IPv4 Protocol field when >               processing IPv4 packets, and the IPv6 Next Header Field >               when processing IPv6 packets. This includes >               the next protocol values defined in Section 5.1.2 and other >               non-zero values. > > (Alvaro may be happier with this change too) That looks much better, thanks! (Though didn't we say we would also allow zero values based on ... Éric(?)'s review?) > > > > for these fields to be ignored for a specific DetNet flow. > > > > side note: it seems like we're using "flow" to mean a couple different > > (but similar) things in this paragraph (e.g., "considering IPv4 > > Protocol/IPv6 Next Header to be distinct or not"). Perhaps that's > > unavioidable, though. > > > > Section 5.1.1.4 > > > > Traffic Class Field when processing IPv6 packets. Implementations > > MUST support list based matching of DSCP values, where the list is > > > > nit: hyphenate "list-based matching" > > Sure > > > > Section 6 > > > > Information identifying a DetNet flow is ordered and implementations > > use the first match. This can, for example, be used to provide a > > > > [this bit might perhaps be affected if my previous comment about > > implementation-specific results in any changes] > > here's the new phrasing from the discussion with alvaro: > > >             An implementation MUST support ordering of the >             set of information information used to identify an >             individual DetNet flow > > > DetNet service for a specific UDP flow, with unique Source and > > Destination Port field values, while providing a different service > > for the aggregate of all other flows with that same UDP Destination > > Port value. > > > > [and this part actually seems to be setting at least an expectation that > > the order is tied down more tightly than just "implementation specific". > > Is this order perhaps something that the controller plane is expected to > > provision?]. > > yes -- as stated above... > > > Section 7 > > > > We discuss elsewhere the need for end systems to (paraphrasing) "not > > shoot themself in the foot", i.e., actually provide the resources > > necessary to meet DetNet traffic guarantees. For the case of DN > > attached systems that are behind a sub-network (e.g., ES2 in Figure 3), > > are there also considerations on the ability of that sub-network to > > provide the necessary level of service? > > Yes -- although this is a consideration below IP - e.g., addressed via > 802.1TSN It might still be worth noting the dependency in these cases, since we do mention the possibility of such configurations. > > Is there a need for synchronization of information about DetNet flows? > > For example, would the controller plane need to ensure that information > > about a new flow is fully propagated to the entire DetNet domain before > > any traffic on that flow starts to flow? > > For the detnet service to be delivered end to end - certainly. From a > traffic protection/isolation standpoint, I don't think so as this is no > differ4ent than an IP flow existing on a network without any detnet state Okay, thanks. > > > If an attacker knows the 6-tuple used by a DetNet flow, isn't there a > > risk that they could use IP-level spoofing to generate traffic that gets > > classified as a DetNet flow, potentially causing that flow to exceed its > > reservation and get erminated? > sure, but how would it enter the detnet network?  I'd expect the traffic > to be dropped at the domain boundary. Based on ... physical interface? I feel like in the general case you can spoof a packet that is indistinguishable from a legitimate one, if you're in the right part of the local topology to pass any BCP38-style checks, so presumably there's some extra context that I'm missing. > > This may be a slightly different risk > > than the one discussed in the last paragraph as requiring policing at > > the input of the DetNet domain. (This is related to the "source address > > spoofing" risk that Bob Briscoe raised.) > > > > Security considerations for DetNet are described in detail in > > [I-D.ietf-detnet-security]. General security considerations are > > described in [RFC8655]. This section considers exclusively security > > > > side note: the wording of these first two sentences feels a little > > strange, as if the two documents should be somehow the same but are not. > > Perhaps: > > > > % Detailed security considerations for DetNet are catalogued in > > % [I-D.ietf-detnet-security], and a more general (abbreviated) treatment > > % is provided in [RFC8655]. > sure. > > Also, it looks like the comments I made on 2020-04-23 regarding > > draft-ietf-detnet-security (as a side note in my ballot position on > > draft-ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework-04) remain applicable: > > > > % The referenced document (now at -09) seems significantly improved from > > % when I previously made an in-passing review of the -03 > > % (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/jZLodXBmQa7ZFDbBIvDO_xCDD0E/), > > % however, some of the issues I mentioned there remain, at least in part > > % (e.g., mentioning the use of HMAC without a colocated discussion of > > % the need for key distribution and having a taxonomy of threats titled > > % "threat model"). > > > > Security aspects which are unique to DetNet are those whose aim is to > > provide the specific quality of service aspects of DetNet, which are > > primarily to deliver data flows with extremely low packet loss rates > > and bounded end-to-end delivery latency. > > > > I recognize that this is essentially verbatim from RFC 8655, but it > > still reads somewhat strangely to me: specifically, it seems to say that > > there are "security aspects [...] whose aim is to provide [QoS, low > > packet loss, and bounded latency]", and I don't think it's the security > > aspects specifically that aim to provide those. Rather, I think it's > > the overall goal of DetNet to provide those attributes, and there are > > some security aspepcts specific to attempting to provide those > > attributes. > > I do agree.  The current text came about through lots of discussions > with other security minded folks, so would prefer to leave it unless you > strongly object. I don't strongly object (and it may be partially my fault anyway); just noting it in case it was easy to change. > > > The primary considerations for the data plane is to maintain > > integrity of data and delivery of the associated DetNet service > > traversing the DetNet network. Application flows can be protected > > through whatever means is provided by the underlying technology. For > > example, encryption may be used, such as that provided by IPSec > > [RFC4301] for IP flows and/or by an underlying sub-net using MACSec > > [IEEE802.1AE-2018] for IP over Ethernet (Layer-2) flows. > > > > It's good that you call this out, so thank you for that. > > I'd suggest a slight addition, prefacing the sentence that currently > > starts with "Application flows" with a lead-in that "Since no > > DetNet-specific fields are available for DetNet IP, data integrity must > > be provided by a lower (or, potentially, higher) layer; application > > flows can [...]". > > how about: > > >         Since no DetNet-specific fields are available in the DetNet IP >         data plane, the integrity and confidentiality of application > flows ... Sure, that does the trick. > > I'd also consider noting that providing guaranteed > > delivery is impossible in the face of a sufficiently powerful attacker > > (that can drop all traffic, cut fiber, etc.), so the attacker in the > > DetNet threat model is necessarily slightly weaker than a typical BCP 72 > > threat model. > Do you have a specific text proposal? Just tossing some ideas out there, maybe: The DetNet quality assurance goals of extremely low packet loss and bounded end-to-end latency are not achievable in the face of a highly capable adversary, such as the one envisioned by the Internet Threat Model of BCP 72 that can arbitrarily drop or delay any or all traffic. In order to present meaningful security considerations, we consider a somewhat weaker attacker who does not control the physical links of the DetNet domain, but may have the ability to control a network node within the boundary of the DetNet domain. > > Section 11.1 > > > > The way in which RFC 3473 is used does not seem to require a normative > > reference, to me. > nice catch! > > (RFC 4301 is perhaps in a similar situation, though given that we need > > normative references to 4302 and 4303, it doesn't stick out as much.) > > > > Section 11.2 > > > > Was it considered to make draft-ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework a > > normative reference? > yes, but it's an informational document so didn't want the downref. [Alvaro already corrected this so I will not repeat it] > > The reference in Section 3 that says "common data > > plane procedures and control information for all DetNet data planes" can > > be found in it makes me wonder whether it contains information that I > > need to know in order to use detnet-ip properly. > > > Changes covered here can be previewed at: > > https://github.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/tree/working/lb/iesg-0625 > > https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc.cgi?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/working/lb/iesg-0625/ip/draft-ietf-detnet-ip.xml > > Thank you! Thanks for the explanations and updates! -Ben From nobody Fri Jun 26 07:15:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 402543A00D2 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2020 07:15:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dkxub_YQ1ZbT for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2020 07:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [67.222.33.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEAE43A0112 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2020 07:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw10.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.10]) by gproxy8.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C1721AB20C for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2020 08:14:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id op84jSKiIDlydop84jmEZk; Fri, 26 Jun 2020 08:14:56 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=SbbZiMZu c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=dLZJa+xiwSxG16/P+YVxDGlgEgI=:19 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10:nop_ipv6 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10:nop_charset_1 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10:nop_rcvd_month_year a=Vy_oeq2dmq0A:10:endurance_base64_authed_username_1 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=174xjjHKAAAA:20 a=VB46miiLAAAA:20 a=_6luz_Dd68gOR_WEJqYA:9 a=61HREWYpD0UPQIuJ:21 a=S7ro7HYcgsdgvwSg:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10:nop_charset_2 a=mYAOWqAtFUkA:10:demote_hacked_domain_1 a=1dbGxDndw2gA:10:demote_hacked_domain_7 a=-RoEEKskQ1sA:10:nop_election2020_name_body a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=2zQpF9utXQcQvvpoMUpZ9QHb9RPuuxNkO6WHHhbmnO4=; b=wPrSCLrusbU62vGDlTnI8wg17J Jq1+16/IFvzj6TbycCEzfcfvJsV9LY+vELrAtSL63QF6cdCX/0Z6ZoWGz12j3Q7FdR/wpKH2l4bsd x/X3Wb5CTSfH8Qjf/KNYICMT/; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=23255 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1jop84-002ZWe-0n; Fri, 26 Jun 2020 08:14:56 -0600 To: Benjamin Kaduk Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman References: <159301678986.2590.8134865738524436704@ietfa.amsl.com> <20200626022846.GD58278@kduck.mit.edu> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <9ca6b23b-6fa1-3126-6320-2669e338d501@labn.net> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 10:14:55 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200626022846.GD58278@kduck.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1jop84-002ZWe-0n X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:23255 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 5 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 14:15:04 -0000 Hi Benjamin, See below. On 6/25/2020 10:28 PM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > Hi Lou, > > Also in-line. > > On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 11:38:41AM -0400, Lou Berger wrote: >> Hi Benjamin, >> >> Thank you for the comments/discuss.  Please see responses (as co-author) >> in line below >> >> On 6/24/2020 12:39 PM, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker wrote: >>> Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for >>> draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: No Objection >>> >>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this >>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>> >>> >>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>> >>> >>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-ip/ >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> COMMENT: >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> The other ADs caught a bunch of editorial stuff that I'll try to not >>> duplicate, though I do list a bunch of editorial stuff as well. >>> >>> Section 1 >>> >>> and routers that provide DetNet service to IP encapsulated data. No >>> DetNet-specific encapsulation is defined to support IP flows, instead >>> the existing IP and higher layer protocol header information is used >>> to support flow identification and DetNet service delivery. Common >>> >>> nit: comma splice >>> >>> This document provides an overview of the DetNet IP data plane in >>> Section 3, considerations that apply to providing DetNet services via >>> the DetNet IP data plane in Section 4. Section 5 provides the >>> >>> nit: this looks like it's trying to be a list but failing, so it's an >>> incomplete sentence. >>> >>> Section 3 >>> >>> Do we want to have a note anywhere in here about how information about >>> which flows are DetNet flows and what behavior(s) they get (e.g., the >>> controller plane, or perhaps a forward reference to section 5), to >>> remind the reader about the architecture? >> The above comments relate to text that has been modified based on >> earlier responses. > Fair enough. (And I do see "The DetNEt controller plane [...] is > responsible for providing each node [...]" which should do the trick. > Thanks!) > >>> Non-DetNet and DetNet IP packets are identical on the wire. >>> >>> I suggest a different word than "identical", perhaps >>> "indistinguishable" (or maybe "the non-DetNet and DetNet IP packet >>> layouts") >> how about >> >>           Non-DetNet and DetNet IP packets can have the same protocol >>             header format on the wire. > Seems reasonable. Maybe s/can//, though? I don't know of a case where the > format is actually different. Done in two places. >>> DetNet flow aggregation may be enabled via the use of wildcards, >>> masks, lists, prefixes and ranges. IP tunnels may also be used to >>> >>> side note: I'd consider rewording so this doesn't sound like an >>> exhaustive list. >>> >>> Figure 1 illustrates a DetNet enabled IP network. The DetNet enabled >>> end systems originate IP encapsulated traffic that is identified >>> within the DetNet domain as DetNet flows. Relay nodes understand the >>> >>> nit: I think the description of "identified" could be tightened up -- at >>> present, one could read this as either "the DetNet ingress classifies IP >>> traffic as DetNet or non DetNet, thus identifying the flows that are >>> DetNet flows", or "within the DetNet domain, these flows (originated >>> from the specific end systems) are identifiable as being DetNet flows". >> added "...based on IP header information" > Okay, thanks. > >>> As non-DetNet and DetNet IP packets are identical on the wire, from >>> data plane perspective, the only difference is that there is flow- >>> >>> [whatever is done for "identical" above could be done here as well] >>> nit: missing article before "data-plane perspective" >> sure >>> Section 4.1 >>> >>> IP flow identification means that DetNet must be aware of not only >>> the format of the IP header, but also of the next protocol carried >>> within an IP packet (see Section 5.1.1.3). >>> >>> The way this is written it seems to bind as "(must be aware of) (not >>> only the format of) (the IP header) (but also of [the format of] the next >>> protocol)", but following the reference, it seems to only require >>> inspecting the value in the "next protocol" IP header field. >>> There would, of course, *also* be a requirement to look into TCP/UDP >>> headers to extract the ports needed for the 6-tuple, which is where I >>> originally thought this was going, but given the apparent intent, my >>> suggestion is to just s/next protocol/next protocol value/. >> thanks >>> End systems need to ensure that DetNet service requirements are met >>> when processing packets associated to a DetNet flow. When forwarding >>> >>> We just said in the previous paragraph that end systems can be >>> DetNet-unaware; how would such DetNet-unaware systems ensure that DetNet >>> service requirements are met? >> I'll rearrange the sentences to make clear what applies to aware end >> systems. >>> packets, this means that packets are appropriately shaped on >>> >>> Also, are end systems going to be *forwarding* packets? I thought that >>> it was DetNet edge nodes (and transit/relay nodes) that would do so. >> s/forwarding/sending >> >>> Section 4.2 >>> >>> aware. Such routers identify DetNet flows based on the IP 6-tuple, >>> and ensure that the DetNet service required traffic treatment is >>> provided both on the node and on any attached sub-network. >>> >>> nit: I suggest hyphenating the compound adjective(s?) in "DetNet service >>> required traffic treatment" or otherwise rewording it, as I'm not >>> entirely clear on how to parse it. >>> >>> This solution provides DetNet functions end to end, but does so on a >>> per link and sub-network basis. Congestion protection and latency >>> >>> We should probably note that there is a single point of failure at the >>> routers/etc. that remove and reapply these functions. >>> >>> Note that not mixing DetNet and non-DetNet traffic within a single >>> 5-tuple, as described above, enables simpler 5-tuple filters to be >>> used (or re-used) at the edges of a DetNet network to prevent non- >>> congestion-responsive DetNet traffic from escaping the DetNet domain. >>> >>> I'd consider s/described/recommended/ >> I think I'll defer to the RFC editor on the above. > Okay. > >>> Also, does the "simpler filters" also apply to determining what inbound >>> traffic should receive DetNet treatment? >> I don't think so as 6-tuple support is required in the detnet domain. > Hmm, okay. > >>> Section 4.3.2 >>> >>> future document. From an encapsulation perspective, the combination >>> of the 6-tuple i.e., the typical 5-tuple enhanced with the DSCP and >>> previously mentioned optional field (i.e., flow label), uniquely >>> identifies a DetNet IP flow. >>> >>> I agree with the directorate reviewer that the language here needs to >>> get cleaned up. >> Do you have a specif recommendation? > How about: > > From an encapsulation perspective, the combination of the 6-tuple (the > typical 5-tuple enhanced by the DSCP) and potentially the flow label > uniquely identifies a DetNet IP flow. Slight tweak: s/potentially/optionally >>> queue or shaper, is used by such flows. There are multiple methods >>> that MAY be used by an implementation to defend service delivery to >>> reserved DetNet flows, including but not limited to: >>> >>> nit: this doesn't seem like a normative MAY. >> agreed >>> Section 4.3.3 >>> >>> next hops. As mentioned above, the DetNet IP data plane identifies >>> flows using "6-tuple" header information as well as the additional >>> optional header field. DetNet generally allows for both flow- >>> >>> Please just name the "optional header field" field directly; there's no >>> need to be oblique about it. >> sure >>> Care should be taken when using different next hops for the same >>> 5-tuple. As discussed in [RFC7657], unexpected behavior can occur >>> when a single 5-tuple application flow experience reordering due to >>> being split across multiple next hops. Understanding of the >>> >>> For some reason I thought the detnet architecture doc also had some >>> discussion of potential consequences of having a single flow split >>> across multiple paths, but all I can find is Section 3.2.2.2 that points >>> out there may be need to have additional buffering in such cases, in >>> order to equalize delays. (Maybe I'm thinking of a different detnet >>> document, though I'm not sure which one that would be.) >> we're not really supporting such splits in this document, which is more >> specific than the architecture document. > Okay. > >>> application and transport protocol impact of using different next >>> hops for the same 6-tuple is required. Again, this impacts path >>> >>> I don't think I understand why we went from "5-tuple" to "6-tuple" in >>> the same paragraph. >> good catch.  This should be 5-tuple >>> Section 4.4 >>> >>> flow identification. DetNet IP flows can be aggregated using any of >>> the 6-tuple, and an additional optional field (i.e., flow label). >>> >>> Similarly to the previous comments, perhaps this should be "any of the >>> 6-tuple and flow label"? There's no need to add "optional" when already >>> subject to "using any of". >> I think I prefer the current phrasing as it won't lead someone to get >> confused on if the field is required. > How would you feel about "and optionally also by the flow label"? > (I'm just thinking about ways to avoid having to say "optional field" and > the name of that field in close succession.) works for me. >>> Section 5.1 >>> >>> IP and higher layer protocol header information is used to identify >>> DetNet flows. All DetNet implementations that support this document >>> MUST identify individual DetNet flows based on the set of information >>> identified in this section. Note, that additional flow >>> >>> Does this requirement apply even to those implementations that have no >>> need to act at flow-level granularity, e.g., a router that only provide >>> DetNet service for aggregated flows, as recommended in Section 4.4? >> Yes. > Okay. > >>> The configuration and control information used to identify an >>> individual DetNet flow MUST be ordered by an implementation. >>> Implementations MUST support a fixed order when identifying flows, >>> and MUST identify a DetNet flow by the first set of matching flow >>> information. >>> >>> I'm a little surprised that this type of determinism is only an >>> implementation-level requirement. If I'm understanding correctly, this >>> requirement would still allow for two different implementations to use >>> different rules for flow identification, and thus, potentially, to map a >>> single end-to-end flow to different classes of service. >> This is based on the management (yang)  or control plane protocol >> semantics.  We would expect each to cover such unambiguously. > I think Alvaro made the same point as me in a more direct manner, and this > got updated to be " An implementation MUST support ordering of the set of > information information used to identify an individual DetNet flow." I had > to read that a couple times to understand how it provided the property I > was expecting (i.e., that there is an external source of order and the > implementation has to cope with whatever such order it gets), but it seems > like it will do the job. > Or, hmm, was that down in section 6 and not here? > >>> Section 5.1.1.3 >>> >>> An implementation MUST support flow identification based on the next >>> protocol values defined in Section 5.1.2. Other, non-zero values, >>> MUST be used for flow identification. Implementations SHOULD allow >>> >>> I don't understand what distinction we're trying to draw between flow >>> identification based on the values defined in Section 5.1.2 and flow >>> identification based on other (non-zero) values. Aren't they both >>> MUST-level requirements, as written? >> This paragraph has morphed as the doc evolved.  How about: >> >> >>               Implementations of this document MUST support DetNet flow >>               identification based on the IPv4 Protocol field when >>               processing IPv4 packets, and the IPv6 Next Header Field >>               when processing IPv6 packets. This includes >>               the next protocol values defined in Section 5.1.2 and other >>               non-zero values. >> >> (Alvaro may be happier with this change too) > That looks much better, thanks! > (Though didn't we say we would also allow zero values based on ... > Éric(?)'s review?) > >>> for these fields to be ignored for a specific DetNet flow. >>> >>> side note: it seems like we're using "flow" to mean a couple different >>> (but similar) things in this paragraph (e.g., "considering IPv4 >>> Protocol/IPv6 Next Header to be distinct or not"). Perhaps that's >>> unavioidable, though. >>> >>> Section 5.1.1.4 >>> >>> Traffic Class Field when processing IPv6 packets. Implementations >>> MUST support list based matching of DSCP values, where the list is >>> >>> nit: hyphenate "list-based matching" >> Sure >> >> >>> Section 6 >>> >>> Information identifying a DetNet flow is ordered and implementations >>> use the first match. This can, for example, be used to provide a >>> >>> [this bit might perhaps be affected if my previous comment about >>> implementation-specific results in any changes] >> here's the new phrasing from the discussion with alvaro: >> >> >>             An implementation MUST support ordering of the >>             set of information information used to identify an >>             individual DetNet flow >> >>> DetNet service for a specific UDP flow, with unique Source and >>> Destination Port field values, while providing a different service >>> for the aggregate of all other flows with that same UDP Destination >>> Port value. >>> >>> [and this part actually seems to be setting at least an expectation that >>> the order is tied down more tightly than just "implementation specific". >>> Is this order perhaps something that the controller plane is expected to >>> provision?]. >> yes -- as stated above... >> >>> Section 7 >>> >>> We discuss elsewhere the need for end systems to (paraphrasing) "not >>> shoot themself in the foot", i.e., actually provide the resources >>> necessary to meet DetNet traffic guarantees. For the case of DN >>> attached systems that are behind a sub-network (e.g., ES2 in Figure 3), >>> are there also considerations on the ability of that sub-network to >>> provide the necessary level of service? >> Yes -- although this is a consideration below IP - e.g., addressed via >> 802.1TSN > It might still be worth noting the dependency in these cases, since we do > mention the possibility of such configurations. okay, added "or within an edge IEEE802.1 TSN domain" to: To protect against DOS attacks, excess traffic due to         malicious or malfunctioning devices can be prevented or mitigated,         for example through the use of existing mechanism such as policing and shaping applied at         the input of a DetNet domain or within an edge IEEE802.1 TSN domain. >>> Is there a need for synchronization of information about DetNet flows? >>> For example, would the controller plane need to ensure that information >>> about a new flow is fully propagated to the entire DetNet domain before >>> any traffic on that flow starts to flow? >> For the detnet service to be delivered end to end - certainly. From a >> traffic protection/isolation standpoint, I don't think so as this is no >> differ4ent than an IP flow existing on a network without any detnet state > Okay, thanks. > >>> If an attacker knows the 6-tuple used by a DetNet flow, isn't there a >>> risk that they could use IP-level spoofing to generate traffic that gets >>> classified as a DetNet flow, potentially causing that flow to exceed its >>> reservation and get erminated? >> sure, but how would it enter the detnet network?  I'd expect the traffic >> to be dropped at the domain boundary. > Based on ... physical interface? I feel like in the general case you can > spoof a packet that is indistinguishable from a legitimate one, if you're > in the right part of the local topology to pass any BCP38-style checks, so > presumably there's some extra context that I'm missing. > >>> This may be a slightly different risk >>> than the one discussed in the last paragraph as requiring policing at >>> the input of the DetNet domain. (This is related to the "source address >>> spoofing" risk that Bob Briscoe raised.) >>> >>> Security considerations for DetNet are described in detail in >>> [I-D.ietf-detnet-security]. General security considerations are >>> described in [RFC8655]. This section considers exclusively security >>> >>> side note: the wording of these first two sentences feels a little >>> strange, as if the two documents should be somehow the same but are not. >>> Perhaps: >>> >>> % Detailed security considerations for DetNet are catalogued in >>> % [I-D.ietf-detnet-security], and a more general (abbreviated) treatment >>> % is provided in [RFC8655]. >> sure. >>> Also, it looks like the comments I made on 2020-04-23 regarding >>> draft-ietf-detnet-security (as a side note in my ballot position on >>> draft-ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework-04) remain applicable: >>> >>> % The referenced document (now at -09) seems significantly improved from >>> % when I previously made an in-passing review of the -03 >>> % (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/jZLodXBmQa7ZFDbBIvDO_xCDD0E/), >>> % however, some of the issues I mentioned there remain, at least in part >>> % (e.g., mentioning the use of HMAC without a colocated discussion of >>> % the need for key distribution and having a taxonomy of threats titled >>> % "threat model"). >>> >>> Security aspects which are unique to DetNet are those whose aim is to >>> provide the specific quality of service aspects of DetNet, which are >>> primarily to deliver data flows with extremely low packet loss rates >>> and bounded end-to-end delivery latency. >>> >>> I recognize that this is essentially verbatim from RFC 8655, but it >>> still reads somewhat strangely to me: specifically, it seems to say that >>> there are "security aspects [...] whose aim is to provide [QoS, low >>> packet loss, and bounded latency]", and I don't think it's the security >>> aspects specifically that aim to provide those. Rather, I think it's >>> the overall goal of DetNet to provide those attributes, and there are >>> some security aspepcts specific to attempting to provide those >>> attributes. >> I do agree.  The current text came about through lots of discussions >> with other security minded folks, so would prefer to leave it unless you >> strongly object. > I don't strongly object (and it may be partially my fault anyway); just > noting it in case it was easy to change. >>> The primary considerations for the data plane is to maintain >>> integrity of data and delivery of the associated DetNet service >>> traversing the DetNet network. Application flows can be protected >>> through whatever means is provided by the underlying technology. For >>> example, encryption may be used, such as that provided by IPSec >>> [RFC4301] for IP flows and/or by an underlying sub-net using MACSec >>> [IEEE802.1AE-2018] for IP over Ethernet (Layer-2) flows. >>> >>> It's good that you call this out, so thank you for that. >>> I'd suggest a slight addition, prefacing the sentence that currently >>> starts with "Application flows" with a lead-in that "Since no >>> DetNet-specific fields are available for DetNet IP, data integrity must >>> be provided by a lower (or, potentially, higher) layer; application >>> flows can [...]". >> how about: >> >> >>         Since no DetNet-specific fields are available in the DetNet IP >>         data plane, the integrity and confidentiality of application >> flows ... > Sure, that does the trick. > >>> I'd also consider noting that providing guaranteed >>> delivery is impossible in the face of a sufficiently powerful attacker >>> (that can drop all traffic, cut fiber, etc.), so the attacker in the >>> DetNet threat model is necessarily slightly weaker than a typical BCP 72 >>> threat model. >> Do you have a specific text proposal? > Just tossing some ideas out there, maybe: > > The DetNet quality assurance goals of extremely low packet loss and bounded > end-to-end latency are not achievable in the face of a highly capable > adversary, such as the one envisioned by the Internet Threat Model of BCP > 72 that can arbitrarily drop or delay any or all traffic. In order to > present meaningful security considerations, we consider a somewhat weaker > attacker who does not control the physical links of the DetNet domain, but > may have the ability to control a network node within the boundary of the > DetNet domain. The second paragraph now reads:        Security aspects which are unique to DetNet are those whose aim is to        provide the specific quality of service aspects of DetNet, which are        primarily to deliver data flows with extremely low packet loss rates        and bounded end-to-end delivery latency.        Achieving such loss rates and bounded latency may not be possible        in the face of a highly capable adversary, such as the one        envisioned by the Internet Threat Model of BCP 72 that can        arbitrarily drop or delay any or all traffic.  In order to        present meaningful security considerations, we consider a        somewhat weaker attacker who does not control the physical links        of the DetNet domain, but may have the ability to control a        network node within the boundary of the DetNet domain.       >>> Section 11.1 >>> >>> The way in which RFC 3473 is used does not seem to require a normative >>> reference, to me. >> nice catch! >>> (RFC 4301 is perhaps in a similar situation, though given that we need >>> normative references to 4302 and 4303, it doesn't stick out as much.) >>> >>> Section 11.2 >>> >>> Was it considered to make draft-ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework a >>> normative reference? >> yes, but it's an informational document so didn't want the downref. > [Alvaro already corrected this so I will not repeat it] > >>> The reference in Section 3 that says "common data >>> plane procedures and control information for all DetNet data planes" can >>> be found in it makes me wonder whether it contains information that I >>> need to know in order to use detnet-ip properly. >>> >> Changes covered here can be previewed at: >> >> https://github.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/tree/working/lb/iesg-0625 >> >> https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc.cgi?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/working/lb/iesg-0625/ip/draft-ietf-detnet-ip.xml >> >> Thank you! > Thanks for the explanations and updates! > > -Ben Thank you for the comments and helpful text suggestions! Lou PS Repo has been updated... > From nobody Fri Jun 26 12:48:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C710B3A0C2D; Fri, 26 Jun 2020 12:48:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qkqKP_FBFy7g; Fri, 26 Jun 2020 12:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x433.google.com (mail-wr1-x433.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::433]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 325013A0C2E; Fri, 26 Jun 2020 12:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x433.google.com with SMTP id h5so10565315wrc.7; Fri, 26 Jun 2020 12:48:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XbDRwKQmFAVS67ySKH2fNI+Dt9dFPudZxDFTC/UHtCE=; b=eEuECYmftrDcKtg8zmcYtVhN12W2u0J2g0kkCGLf3MZ2+Xc+f/ehpLkI2045o9kUoE tezibJ9R0+MoqpZe9ysPOJw+dB37WkkdkAzppLzuU8TLEYGewkg7H4kMg4uxoA2qsC8F IeIWjt3zYF+MrYmFrsYuriR6TZAoA4mhqjpwu7Lm9K4EDOqOmBZgMe5iBdt6escChUt7 QdUgq+eIqM6Muuuf/QxN81D9Lv0qvO8fACMQv5Hn+iCasXEqT0SshB8dC47O4D75Zsag HtiOw2rpG5LdlBVYQxunsbEXpZPThEwu+mIzTKIcgCaJhkX6dXX8OrEz7NBgShGYj06X 2VcQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XbDRwKQmFAVS67ySKH2fNI+Dt9dFPudZxDFTC/UHtCE=; b=FZDOvA2J3UVoz9QLwP7DCnjKdpHbTP9w3DVAdTtU/SSoGe7XcDRKCPOjpKHwAC0FBC He8UkUWCv5ObF5Nn2ZGCG1brwdbpMM/Ul3uuSrMJ0RSAY7DcYxb+0TXaLzCTpHFZpuvx VqFkUA9LV1VLVu8/GiqJ0MzdUd0PV1awRGQikGXAu2HS4Fza0wS7Bc/SodFZ5cMwkvPR 873fD1gbb39t4IsjNDXD1715xfIR3VU4SsyzhCUGEqLFYLwJ2taEiJIOaKEbBKM6U/bU P/rmY2uASTGA1gR7XQH+e9qK6EKfybRRl5FsGaiZAD2q+l6DNQRlnWwNY6hGrCtzSexB Jpgg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533yXGKsYCbMYkpM2QJITOnzXmF4bvh+err4QYbLkAyD5G9jwpf2 BIzc0/cY8s7AsslDCYvwTPiMeF1LJ9US0T7k0Xc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxiQQolnAYj8s/0Owt/yoyVMp+fpuxKzdYJG0GnELX3pNax61hKlFclOwcMkYk8pcjqTHdH5HnK9IE1gfVtKw8= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:5651:: with SMTP id j17mr5070029wrw.145.1593200906663; Fri, 26 Jun 2020 12:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Fri, 26 Jun 2020 12:48:25 -0700 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: References: <159292690639.3288.6217558507015891728@ietfa.amsl.com> <403116c7-6a80-9368-91ac-a0f0d1ba2cb0@labn.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 12:48:25 -0700 Message-ID: To: Lou Berger , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman , detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000018fca105a901fe48" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 19:48:31 -0000 --00000000000018fca105a901fe48 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lou: There=E2=80=99s also a =E2=80=9CSHALL=E2=80=9D in =C2=A75.2. The rest looks good to me. I trust you with the changes, so I=E2=80=99m clearing my DISCUSS. Thanks! Alvaro. On June 25, 2020 at 5:24:22 PM, Lou Berger (lberger@labn.net) wrote: Alvaro to be precise, you are looking for: section 4.3.1: s/MUST/must section 4.3.2: s/IP MUST/IP must section 5.3: s/MUST/must Right? I think that's fine as it translates to conformance being judged based on (a) this document, (b) a yang or control plane document, and (c) whichever traffic treatment RFCs/references the yang or control plane document reference. This is reasonable (at least to me). I think you have two additional points below... > On June 25, 2020 at 3:57:22 PM, Lou Berger (lberger@labn.net > ) wrote: > ... >> >>> BTW, 0 is the IPv6 HbH option -- do you really want to exclude it? >> >> I think so, but this was not extensively discussed. Do you think it's >> >> the wrong call? >> > I don't know. But if all the other EHs are not excluded there must be >> > a good reason. I can imagine ways to use HbH to maybe carry other >> > flow identification parameter...for later use. Just thinking out >> > loud... >> > okay, I'll make the change to allow for zero values (assuming no objections for others.) >> > >> > >> > ... >> >>> (8) I believe that these references should be Normative: >> >>> I-D.ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework and RFC8655. >> >> the data plane framework is informative so generally references to >> >> informative docs are informative. >> > Nope. >> > >> > A normative reference is one that "must be read to understand or >> > implement the technology"...regardless of the status. >> > >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/normative-informative-ref= erences/ >> >> > okay then. All, please look at the repo to see if you object/approve of the changes: https://github.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/compare/working/lb/iesg-0625 https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xml2rfc.cgi?url=3Dhttps://raw.github= usercontent.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/working/lb/iesg-0625/ip/draft-i= etf-detnet-ip.xml Thank you! Lou > >> > Thanks! >> > >> > Alvaro. >> > --00000000000018fca105a901fe48 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
Lou:

There=E2=80=99s also a =E2=80=9CSHALL=E2=80=9D in =C2=A75.2.

The rest looks good = to me.

<= /div>
I trust you = with the changes, so I=E2=80=99m clearing my DISCUSS.

Thanks!

Alvaro.

On June 25, 20= 20 at 5:24:22 PM, Lou Berger (lberger@l= abn.net) wrote:

=
Alvaro

to be precise, you are looking for:

section 4.3.1: s/MUST/must

section 4.3.2: s/IP MUST/IP must

section 5.3: s/MUST/must

Right?

I think that's fine as it translates to conformance being judged ba= sed =20
on (a) this document, (b) a yang or control plane document, and (c) =20
whichever traffic treatment RFCs/references the yang or control plane = =20
document reference.=C2=A0 This is reasonable (at least to me).

I think you have two additional points below...

> On June 25, 2020 at 3:57:22 PM, Lou Berger (lberger@labn.net =20
> <mailto:lberger@labn.net>) wrote:
>
...
>> >>> BTW, 0 is the IPv6 HbH option -- do you really wa= nt to exclude it?
>> >> I think so, but this was not extensively discussed. D= o you think it's
>> >> the wrong call?
>> > I don't know.=C2=A0 But if all the other EHs are not = excluded there must be
>> > a good reason.=C2=A0 I can imagine ways to use HbH to may= be carry other
>> > flow identification parameter...for later use.=C2=A0 Just= thinking out
>> > loud...
>> >

okay, I'll make the change to allow for zero values (assuming no = =20
objections for others.)

>> >
>> >
>> > ...
>> >>> (8) I believe that these references should be Nor= mative:
>> >>> I-D.ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework and RFC8655.
>> >> the data plane framework is informative so generally = references to
>> >> informative docs are informative.
>> > Nope.
>> >
>> > A normative reference is one that "must be read to u= nderstand or
>> > implement the technology"...regardless of the status= .
>> >
>> > =20
>> https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/st= atements/normative-informative-references/ =20
>>
>> >

okay then.

All,

please look at the repo to see if you object/approve of the changes:

https://github.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-drafts/compare/wor= king/lb/iesg-0625

https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/cgi-bin/xm= l2rfc.cgi?url=3Dhttps://raw.githubusercontent.com/detnet-wg/data-plane-draf= ts/working/lb/iesg-0625/ip/draft-ietf-detnet-ip.xml

Thank you!

=C2=A0Lou

>

>> > Thanks!
>> >
>> > Alvaro.
>> >
<= /body> --00000000000018fca105a901fe48-- From nobody Fri Jun 26 14:55:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 555ED3A0CE3 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2020 14:55:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7PfYTEm1EsV2 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2020 14:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy7-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy7-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [70.40.196.235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A41333A0CDB for ; 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bh=mj4vWCEMU2TYE1et1uXJ+UhEgKoR2alV+fSD8Y7kAUI=; b=PhlswWHkWx1BhgdCQmG+uVeMcu 1wg+nGsXPBTdmTwII74/badN1CH/LWmvElUqBqkXKkn+jqeze36LLMXprU1HOpaAiTAaxIjeYzorB 3mBjaAiaTuqKkGb3N8KFjcb1L; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=28125 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1jowJc-000Ko6-Oq; Fri, 26 Jun 2020 15:55:20 -0600 To: Alvaro Retana , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-detnet-ip@ietf.org, Ethan Grossman , detnet-chairs@ietf.org, detnet@ietf.org References: <159292690639.3288.6217558507015891728@ietfa.amsl.com> <403116c7-6a80-9368-91ac-a0f0d1ba2cb0@labn.net> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 17:55:17 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------314D45AA74F99E046F493B81" Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1jowJc-000Ko6-Oq X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:28125 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 6 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-detnet-ip-06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 21:55:30 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------314D45AA74F99E046F493B81 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Alvaro, On 6/26/2020 3:48 PM, Alvaro Retana wrote: > Lou: > > There’s also a “SHALL†in §5.2. > I think this shall is right, how about, if we add:        Specific management and control           information will be defined in future documents, e.g., . > The rest looks good to me. > > I trust you with the changes, so I’m clearing my DISCUSS. > Thanks;-)  I'll upload once we close on the above > Thanks! > > Alvaro. > > On June 25, 2020 at 5:24:22 PM, Lou Berger (lberger@labn.net > ) wrote: > >> Alvaro >> >> to be precise, you are looking for: >> >> section 4.3.1: s/MUST/must >> >> section 4.3.2: s/IP MUST/IP must >> >> section 5.3: s/MUST/must >> >> Right? >> >> I think that's fine as it translates to conformance being judged based >> on (a) this document, (b) a yang or control plane document, and (c) >> whichever traffic treatment RFCs/references the yang or control plane >> document reference.  This is reasonable (at least to me). >> >> I think you have two additional points below... >> >> > On June 25, 2020 at 3:57:22 PM, Lou Berger (lberger@labn.net >> >> > >) wrote: >> > >> ... >> >> >>> BTW, 0 is the IPv6 HbH option -- do you really want to exclude >> it? >> >> >> I think so, but this was not extensively discussed. Do you >> think it's >> >> >> the wrong call? >> >> > I don't know.  But if all the other EHs are not excluded there >> must be >> >> > a good reason.  I can imagine ways to use HbH to maybe carry other >> >> > flow identification parameter...for later use.  Just thinking out >> >> > loud... >> >> > >> >> okay, I'll make the change to allow for zero values (assuming no >> objections for others.) >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ... >> >> >>> (8) I believe that these references should be Normative: >> >> >>> I-D.ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework and RFC8655. >> >> >> the data plane framework is informative so generally references to >> >> >> informative docs are informative. >> >> > Nope. >> >> > >> >> > A normative reference is one that "must be read to understand or >> >> > implement the technology"...regardless of the status --------------314D45AA74F99E046F493B81 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Alvaro,

On 6/26/2020 3:48 PM, Alvaro Retana wrote:
Lou:

There’s also a “SHALL†in §5.2.

I think this shall is right, how about, if we add:

       Specific management and control
          information will be defined in future documents, e.g., <xref
          target="I-D.ietf-detnet-yang"/>.


The rest looks good to me.

I trust you with the changes, so I’m clearing my DISCUSS.

Thanks;-)  I'll upload once we close on the above
Thanks!

Alvaro.

On June 25, 2020 at 5:24:22 PM, Lou Berger (lberger@labn.net) wrote:

Alvaro

to be precise, you are looking for:

section 4.3.1: s/MUST/must

section 4.3.2: s/IP MUST/IP must

section 5.3: s/MUST/must

Right?

I think that's fine as it translates to conformance being judged based
on (a) this document, (b) a yang or control plane document, and (c)
whichever traffic treatment RFCs/references the yang or control plane
document reference.  This is reasonable (at least to me).

I think you have two additional points below...

> On June 25, 2020 at 3:57:22 PM, Lou Berger (lberger@labn.net
> <mailto:lberger@labn.net>) wrote:
>
...
>> >>> BTW, 0 is the IPv6 HbH option -- do you really want to exclude it?
>> >> I think so, but this was not extensively discussed. Do you think it's
>> >> the wrong call?
>> > I don't know.  But if all the other EHs are not excluded there must be
>> > a good reason.  I can imagine ways to use HbH to maybe carry other
>> > flow identification parameter...for later use.  Just thinking out
>> > loud...
>> >

okay, I'll make the change to allow for zero values (assuming no
objections for others.)

>> >
>> >
>> > ...
>> >>> (8) I believe that these references should be Normative:
>> >>> I-D.ietf-detnet-data-plane-framework and RFC8655.
>> >> the data plane framework is informative so generally references to
>> >> informative docs are informative.
>> > Nope.
>> >
>> > A normative reference is one that "must be read to understand or
>> > implement the technology"...regardless of the status
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format=flowed; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quan The key statement below is "networks that are under a single administrative control or within a closed group of administrative control"  -- this statement allows for any sized network and does NOT restrict DetNets to " small networks ". I suspect the types of networks you mention below will generally be built "under a single administrative control or within a closed group of administrative control". Lou ---------- On June 28, 2020 3:42:40 AM wrote: > Dear Chairs and WG, > > > > > > I noticed that in DetNet Charter, it mentions that the networks which WG > foucs on as following shown. > > "The Working Group will initially focus on solutions for networks that are > under a single administrative control or within a closed group of > administrative control; these include not only campus-wide networks but > also can include private WANs. The DetNet WG will not spend energy on > solutions for large groups of domains such as the Internet." > > IMO, this description seenms to restrict the WAN application and limit the > DetNet to the small networks. > > I am not sure the WAN such as Metropolitan area network and Mobile backhaul > network is in the scope of DetNet. > > Could you please make some clarification about that? Thanks! > > > > > Best Regards, > > Quan > > ---------- > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > ------------172fa7896291eb277bd37d55e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Quan

The key statement below is "n= etworks that are under a single administrative control or within a closed g= roup of administrative control"  -- this statement allows for any size= d network and does NOT restrict DetNets to " small networks ".

I suspect the types of networ= ks you mention below will generally be built "under a single administrative= control or within a closed group of administrative control".

Lou

On June 28, 2020 3:42:40 AM <xiong.quan@zte.com.cn> wrote:

Dear Chairs and WG,


I no= ticed that in DetNet Charter, it mentions that the networks which WG foucs = on as following shown. 

"The Working Group will initially focus = on solutions for networks that are under a single administrative control or= within a closed group of administrative control; these include not only ca= mpus-wide networks but also can include private WANs. The DetNet WG will no= t spend energy on solutions for large groups of domains such as the Interne= t."

IMO, this description seenms to restrict the WAN application and = limit the DetNet to  the small networks.

I am not sure the WAN s= uch as Metropolitan area network and Mobile backhaul network = ;is in the scope of DetNet.

Could you please make some clarification = about that? Thanks!


Best Regards,

Quan




_________________________________________= ______
detnet mailing list
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AOAM530wG0gYWT0JPWAgPm4XKLZom9yeC4D96In21cqxOPekuMSfFk2+ 8qOj33dInJH2DRnTxfKolLTDRsFGFVnugun3tpU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzZSc9K5bdRsK5+tiNtUkeSyycNqsIvbAL0vSIiMY+neJDfx7IRER4yDqrFNEVddewxx2f9IhyT+lrAuNU0fO8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:2409:: with SMTP id d9mr12798274qkn.36.1593379282479; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 14:21:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202006281541556486340@zte.com.cn> <172fa789510.277b.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 17:21:11 -0400 Message-ID: To: Janos Farkas Cc: Lou Berger , "xiong.quan@zte.com.cn" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001feea205a92b86d9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] [DetNet] Discussion on the WAN application in DetNet charter X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 21:21:25 -0000 --0000000000001feea205a92b86d9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Quan, Mobile backhaul is absolutely in scope, see section 6 of RFC 8578 for a discussion. In addition, section 10 talks about its use with 5G bearer networks. That RFC also has a number of other use cases. Cheers, Andy On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:28 PM Janos Farkas wrote: > I fully agree with Lou. > > > > DetNet is NOT limited to small networks. > > As I wrote before, the key point is that DetNet is not for the big I > Internet. One reason is not to try to boil the ocean. > > Note that a key motivation for establishing DetNet was to be able to go > larger scale than TSN. > > > > Regards, > > Janos > > > > *From:* Lou Berger > *Sent:* Sunday, June 28, 2020 12:28 PM > *To:* xiong.quan@zte.com.cn; detnet@ietf.org > *Cc:* Janos Farkas ; detnet-chairs@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] [DetNet] Discussion on the WAN application in > DetNet charter > > > > Quan > > The key statement below is "networks that are under a single > administrative control or within a closed group of administrative control" > -- this statement allows for any sized network and does NOT restrict > DetNets to " small networks ". > > I suspect the types of networks you mention below will generally be built > "under a single administrative control or within a closed group of > administrative control". > > Lou > ------------------------------ > > On June 28, 2020 3:42:40 AM wrote: > > Dear Chairs and WG, > > > > I noticed that in DetNet Charter, it mentions that the networks which WG > foucs on as following shown. > > "The Working Group will initially focus on solutions for networks that are > under a single administrative control or within a closed group of > administrative control; these include not only campus-wide networks but > also can include private WANs. The DetNet WG will not spend energy on > solutions for large groups of domains such as the Internet." > > IMO, this description seenms to restrict the WAN application and limit the > DetNet to the small networks. > > I am not sure the WAN such as Metropolitan area network and Mobile > backhaul network is in the scope of DetNet. > > Could you please make some clarification about that? Thanks! > > > > Best Regards, > > Quan > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --0000000000001feea205a92b86d9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Quan,

Mobile backhaul is absolutely in = scope, see section=C2=A06 of RFC 8578 for a discussion. In addition, sectio= n 10 talks about its use with 5G bearer networks. That RFC also has a numbe= r of other=C2=A0use cases.

Cheers,
Andy<= /div>


On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:28 PM Janos Farkas <Janos.= Farkas=3D40ericsson.com@dm= arc.ietf.org> wrote:

I fully agree with Lou.

=C2=A0

DetNet is NOT limited to small networks.

As I wrote before, the key point is that DetNet is n= ot for the big I Internet. One reason is not to try to boil the ocean.

Note that a key motivation for establishing DetNet w= as to be able to go larger scale than TSN.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Janos

=C2=A0

From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 12:28 PM
To: xiong= .quan@zte.com.cn; = detnet@ietf.org
Cc: Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>; detnet-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Detnet] [DetNet] Discussion on the WAN application in = DetNet charter

=C2=A0

Quan

The key statement below is "networks that = are under a single administrative control or within a closed group of admin= istrative control"=C2=A0 -- this statement allows for any sized networ= k and does NOT restrict DetNets to " small networks ".

I suspect the types of networks you mention bel= ow will generally be built "under a single administrative control or w= ithin a closed group of administrative control".

Lou

On = June 28, 2020 3:42:40 AM <xiong.quan@zte.com.cn> wrote:

Dear Chairs and WG,

=C2=A0

I noticed that in DetNet Charter, it mention= s that the networks which WG foucs on as following shown.=C2=A0

"The Working Group will initially focus= on solutions for networks that are under a single administrative control o= r within a closed group of administrative control; these include not only c= ampus-wide networks but also can include private WANs. The DetNet WG will not spend energy on solutions for large g= roups of domains such as the Internet."

IMO, this description seenms to restrict the= WAN application and limit the DetNet to =C2=A0the small networks.

I am not sure the WAN such as=C2=A0Metropoli= tan area network and=C2=A0Mobile backhaul network=C2=A0is in the scope of D= etNet.

Could you please make some clarification abo= ut that? Thanks!

=C2=A0

Best Regards,

Quan

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

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=C2=A0

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mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0wIsejffirHX; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84D723A0E9C; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id h4so15156303ior.5; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:01:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=eye5DYEZ1CHG/5IKgtDzeYIA41NJizmnBu8HrmD0zD8=; b=TAAP2EnRe/rDGemszKi1evPyvbQipa363RJOORBiG08dmVg07Iqj6r1P4f1FAoghzw HQCNINZdtuQvLTC3asSxV29lS1jGZPEvFk+IRRMt6lpRQg0jY7JyXtqh9wickOaJcIe1 a8FJUXvIm8im6tpamVudqywKdbE1eursCjBCbpCRC/3h7eVrV4WQCPawLIs3foug4gTk 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SMTP id s26mr7961136iob.48.1593381678672; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:01:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202006221028453198858@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: From: Gyan Mishra Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 18:01:08 -0400 Message-ID: To: Janos Farkas Cc: "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "gregory.mirsky@ztetx.com" , "lberger@labn.net" , "xiong.quan@zte.com.cn" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f2f0e005a92c1478" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Questions about the Networks in DetNet charter X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 22:01:23 -0000 --000000000000f2f0e005a92c1478 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had a generic question related to the Detnet WG charter. So I understand the focus of latency and jitter time sensitive applications such as voice and video over any single administrative domain which is covers am any carriers network including RAN 4G/5G. Am good with all that. To me the term =E2=80=9Cdeterministic=E2=80=9D from a network routing persp= ective historically precluded ECMP flow based load balancing or for example vxlan source port entropy IP ECMP load balancing. Since IP ECMP load balancing is all flow based technically UDP voice and video flows are not impacted as IP ECMP is prevalent in most all providers and enterprises. In the past, IP per packet load existed and that reeked havoc with voice and video UDP RTP based flows out of order packets. Since then most vendors due to issues with per packet load balancing over multiple paths have been eliminated. In my mind anything other then per packet load balanced flows is deterministic. Deterministic routing I would think means in the simplest sense a non load balanced single path with no ECMP along the entire path. Another way to look at is that you can see the flow along any hop in the path if you did a packet capture where non deterministic path for a flow that would not be possible. I noticed in the charter it does mention ECMP Verdi=E2=80=99s not or in RFC= 8578. What does the deterministic mean in the context of the WG framework as it does not seem related to deterministic routing. Kind Regards Gyan On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 5:35 PM Janos Farkas wrote: > Hi Quan. > > > > This was my previous response. > > > > Best regards, > > Janos > > > > *From:* Janos Farkas > *Sent:* Monday, June 22, 2020 10:54 AM > *To:* xiong.quan@zte.com.cn > *Cc:* detnet-chairs@ietf.org; lberger@labn.net; gregory.mirsky@ztetx.com > *Subject:* RE: Questions about the Networks in DetNet charter > > > > Hi Quan. > > > > The main purpose of the cited sentence is to limit the scope of the work > to make it reasonable, i.e., not trying to boil the ocean. Actually, the > main message is that DetNet is not for the big I Internet, but for smalle= r > networks than that. > > > > Networks like mobile backhaul are definitely in scope of DetNet. It is > actually explicitly there in the DetNet Use Cases > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8578#section-6.2.2. > > > > Best regards, > > Janos > > > > *From:* xiong.quan@zte.com.cn > *Sent:* Monday, June 22, 2020 4:29 AM > *To:* detnet-chairs@ietf.org; Janos Farkas ; > lberger@labn.net > *Cc:* gregory.mirsky@ztetx.com > *Subject:* Questions about the Networks in DetNet charter > > > > Dear Chairs, > > > > I noticed that in DetNet Charter, it mentions that the networks which WG > foucs on as following shown. > > > > "The Working Group will initially focus on solutions for networks that ar= e > under a single administrative control or within a closed group of > administrative control; these include not only campus-wide networks but > also can include private WANs. The DetNet WG will not spend energy on > solutions for large groups of domains such as the Internet." > > > > Could you please clarify that the WAN such as Metropolitan area network > and Mobile backhaul network is included in DetNet use case or not? > > And does the DetNet WG only focus on the small networks similier with TSN= ? > > > > Your reply is important and appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > Quan > > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --=20 *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD --000000000000f2f0e005a92c1478 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I had a generic question related to t= he Detnet WG charter.

So= I understand the focus of latency and jitter time sensitive applications s= uch as voice and video over any single administrative domain which is cover= s am any carriers network including RAN 4G/5G.=C2=A0 Am good with all that.=

To me the term =E2=80= =9Cdeterministic=E2=80=9D from a network routing perspective historically p= recluded ECMP flow based load balancing or for example vxlan source port en= tropy IP ECMP load balancing. =C2=A0 Since IP ECMP load balancing is all fl= ow based technically UDP voice and video flows are not impacted as IP ECMP = is prevalent in most all providers and enterprises.=C2=A0 In the past, IP p= er packet load existed and that reeked havoc with voice and video UDP RTP b= ased flows out of order packets.=C2=A0 Since then most vendors due to issue= s with per packet load balancing over multiple paths have been eliminated. = =C2=A0
In my mind anything other then per packet loa= d balanced flows is deterministic. =C2=A0

=
Deterministic routing I would think means in the simplest= sense a non load balanced single path with no ECMP along the entire path.= =C2=A0 Another way to look at is that you can see the flow along any hop in= the path if you did a packet capture where non deterministic path for a fl= ow that would not be possible.

I noticed in the charter it does mention ECMP Verdi=E2=80=99s not or= in RFC 8578.=C2=A0

What= does the deterministic mean in the context of the WG framework as it does = not seem related to deterministic routing.


Kind Regards=C2=A0

Gyan

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 5:35 = PM Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hi Quan.

=C2=A0

This was my previous response.

=C2=A0

Best regards,

Janos

=C2=A0

From: Janos Farkas
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2020 10:54 AM
To: xiong= .quan@zte.com.cn
Cc: detn= et-chairs@ietf.org; lberger@labn.net; gregory.mirsky@ztetx.com
Subject: RE: Questions about the Networks in DetNet charter

=C2=A0

Hi Quan.

=C2=A0

The main purpose of the cited sentence is to limit t= he scope of the work to make it reasonable, i.e., not trying to boil the oc= ean. Actually, the main message is that DetNet is not for the big I Interne= t, but for smaller networks than that.

=C2=A0

Networks like mobile backhaul are definitely in scop= e of DetNet. It is actually explicitly there in the DetNet Use Cases https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8578#section-6.2.2.

=C2=A0

Best regards,

Janos

=C2=A0

From: xiong.quan@zte.com.cn <xiong.quan@zte.com.cn>
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2020 4:29 AM
To: detn= et-chairs@ietf.org; Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>; lberger@labn.net<= br> Cc: gr= egory.mirsky@ztetx.com
Subject: Questions about the Networks in DetNet charter

=C2=A0

Dear Chairs,=

=C2=A0

I noticed th= at in DetNet Charter, it mentions that the networks which WG foucs on as fo= llowing shown.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

"The Working Group will initially fo= cus on solutions for networks that are under a single administrative contro= l or within a closed group of administrative control; these include not onl= y campus-wide networks but also can include private WANs. The DetNet WG will not spend energy on solutions for large g= roups of domains such as the Internet."

=C2=A0

Could you please clarify that the WAN =C2= =A0such as=C2=A0Metropolitan area network and=C2=A0Mobile backhaul network= =C2=A0is included in DetNet use case or not?

And does the DetNet WG only focus on the = small networks similier with TSN?

=C2=A0

Your reply is important and appreciated.<= /span>

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Quan

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
--
--000000000000f2f0e005a92c1478-- From nobody Sun Jun 28 15:18:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 052F13A0F87; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:18:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QdgfKH8PWW9W; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2b.google.com (mail-io1-xd2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F39C43A0F82; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2b.google.com with SMTP id i25so15258830iog.0; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:17:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YqxCQJ/wzj8d3EN2ZA7edgadZ/4PxVJaugn6+YVLHek=; b=HT2QvTz0Bf2LZjZhOSmnMl7Yveu2WZOrjmrmlMw/IVZ6E/D/1O/5wDcxxBc4n0XG5J VJt46+Ew402yJc0OYRGRvrAz80E8AQlr+Gt9XBOB5L1qhBqU9spJrFwBaGP98xMpp/Ak auTuil7fzkNpYrn7tLg8TnVQbPMvzv1md+DjdlZxncCQC8QRPF90v3MVQLrDIJx/byCF +BwP60MPRVyYv7B1fPbDCLXb7ssk35T8ImrOeO+ad1NdkFguaU6VfYLq4KE4uYzv9enr FlAVoaQxvgyZs1hCvroCZcAuWp0h5OJwZ7vTP2DhHg2pRohxTlU1PFWorVjXYGTbyA4+ xrrg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YqxCQJ/wzj8d3EN2ZA7edgadZ/4PxVJaugn6+YVLHek=; b=ZwcYs3xEMmkB2ymZ4rCTYej4tqS3TS4ckDRRICfYuf7Ay3sWzMZBupayRk7r/EWDJB zmvigBtRfEqCHAewEERRnmKuRUZ8hHg0Xt6Bx2rRNywSmD1B93NZtLasUFvH2jaKimz4 Ai2rbIP9LLswv3eAB38OFqtbr6vNnGjhLO0OgtAb4a21Eb3789XJHm5c9mTevUTEjMjI 0JRhD+ozH9kpsDFe+PpwZRritH9fMZyQRI3yT40iswZbZUmW+XybG6nbxtruAVm/HOCm 8+gqq5ElwBTCDC/tTNFLPdA12054Toq3CgwXv9GfVptqbbWdV60H9r+p+SB1de03WEC+ fdJg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533UJH4v5TsJqMkWrS3WgAYKjdwfEw36viPGinFzUFyWRCdO2baC VZNkUVDJLpGXzyiuqCE5lmh61C5DofdubttbFRnXN1QmQUk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzkS3uXE+mACIsWbl1HicnK1Xh5bLDPYIsojpZ8cRs8VPWrgtOCuLp5TltG9AffpCHR4J9xwFkibZDhp2V/4RA= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:8f98:: with SMTP id l24mr14040594iol.141.1593382679101; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:17:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202006221028453198858@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: From: Gyan Mishra Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 18:17:48 -0400 Message-ID: To: Janos Farkas Cc: "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "gregory.mirsky@ztetx.com" , "lberger@labn.net" , "xiong.quan@zte.com.cn" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009444a505a92c50b9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Questions about the Networks in DetNet charter X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 22:18:02 -0000 --0000000000009444a505a92c50b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My last paragraph related to my question fixed. I noticed in the charter or RFC 8578 does not mention non ECMP routing as deemed deterministic routing used in Detnet. Thanks Gyan On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 6:01 PM Gyan Mishra wrote: > > I had a generic question related to the Detnet WG charter. > > So I understand the focus of latency and jitter time sensitive > applications such as voice and video over any single administrative domai= n > which is covers am any carriers network including RAN 4G/5G. Am good wit= h > all that. > > To me the term =E2=80=9Cdeterministic=E2=80=9D from a network routing per= spective > historically precluded ECMP flow based load balancing or for example vxla= n > source port entropy IP ECMP load balancing. Since IP ECMP load balancin= g > is all flow based technically UDP voice and video flows are not impacted = as > IP ECMP is prevalent in most all providers and enterprises. In the past, > IP per packet load existed and that reeked havoc with voice and video UDP > RTP based flows out of order packets. Since then most vendors due to > issues with per packet load balancing over multiple paths have been > eliminated. > In my mind anything other then per packet load balanced flows is > deterministic. > > Deterministic routing I would think means in the simplest sense a non loa= d > balanced single path with no ECMP along the entire path. Another way to > look at is that you can see the flow along any hop in the path if you did= a > packet capture where non deterministic path for a flow that would not be > possible. > > I noticed in the charter it does mention ECMP Verdi=E2=80=99s not or in R= FC 8578. > > What does the deterministic mean in the context of the WG framework as it > does not seem related to deterministic routing. > > > Kind Regards > > Gyan > > On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 5:35 PM Janos Farkas 40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> Hi Quan. >> >> >> >> This was my previous response. >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Janos >> >> >> >> *From:* Janos Farkas >> *Sent:* Monday, June 22, 2020 10:54 AM >> *To:* xiong.quan@zte.com.cn >> *Cc:* detnet-chairs@ietf.org; lberger@labn.net; gregory.mirsky@ztetx.com >> *Subject:* RE: Questions about the Networks in DetNet charter >> >> >> >> Hi Quan. >> >> >> >> The main purpose of the cited sentence is to limit the scope of the work >> to make it reasonable, i.e., not trying to boil the ocean. Actually, the >> main message is that DetNet is not for the big I Internet, but for small= er >> networks than that. >> >> >> >> Networks like mobile backhaul are definitely in scope of DetNet. It is >> actually explicitly there in the DetNet Use Cases >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8578#section-6.2.2. >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Janos >> >> >> >> *From:* xiong.quan@zte.com.cn >> *Sent:* Monday, June 22, 2020 4:29 AM >> *To:* detnet-chairs@ietf.org; Janos Farkas ; >> lberger@labn.net >> *Cc:* gregory.mirsky@ztetx.com >> *Subject:* Questions about the Networks in DetNet charter >> >> >> >> Dear Chairs, >> >> >> >> I noticed that in DetNet Charter, it mentions that the networks which WG >> foucs on as following shown. >> >> >> >> "The Working Group will initially focus on solutions for networks that >> are under a single administrative control or within a closed group of >> administrative control; these include not only campus-wide networks but >> also can include private WANs. The DetNet WG will not spend energy on >> solutions for large groups of domains such as the Internet." >> >> >> >> Could you please clarify that the WAN such as Metropolitan area network >> and Mobile backhaul network is included in DetNet use case or not? >> >> And does the DetNet WG only focus on the small networks similier with TS= N? >> >> >> >> Your reply is important and appreciated. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Quan >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> > -- > > > > *Gyan Mishra* > > *Network Solutions A**rchitect * > > > > *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD > > -- *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD --0000000000009444a505a92c50b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My last paragraph related to my question f= ixed.

I noticed in the charter or RFC 8578 doe= s not mention non ECMP routing as deemed deterministic routing used in Detn= et.

Thanks=C2=A0

Gyan<= /div>

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 6:01 PM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote:

I had a generic q= uestion related to the Detnet WG charter.

=
So I understand the focus of latency and jitter time sens= itive applications such as voice and video over any single administrative d= omain which is covers am any carriers network including RAN 4G/5G.=C2=A0 Am= good with all that.

To = me the term =E2=80=9Cdeterministic=E2=80=9D from a network routing perspect= ive historically precluded ECMP flow based load balancing or for example vx= lan source port entropy IP ECMP load balancing. =C2=A0 Since IP ECMP load b= alancing is all flow based technically UDP voice and video flows are not im= pacted as IP ECMP is prevalent in most all providers and enterprises.=C2=A0= In the past, IP per packet load existed and that reeked havoc with voice a= nd video UDP RTP based flows out of order packets.=C2=A0 Since then most ve= ndors due to issues with per packet load balancing over multiple paths have= been eliminated. =C2=A0
In my mind anything other t= hen per packet load balanced flows is deterministic. =C2=A0

Deterministic routing I would think m= eans in the simplest sense a non load balanced single path with no ECMP alo= ng the entire path.=C2=A0 Another way to look at is that you can see the fl= ow along any hop in the path if you did a packet capture where non determin= istic path for a flow that would not be possible.
I noticed in the charter it does mention ECMP Ver= di=E2=80=99s not or in RFC 8578.=C2=A0

What does the deterministic mean in the context of the WG fr= amework as it does not seem related to deterministic routing.


Kind Rega= rds=C2=A0

Gyan

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 5:35 PM Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas=3D40ericsson.com@dma= rc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hi Quan.

=C2=A0

This was my previous response.

=C2=A0

Best regards,

Janos

=C2=A0

From: Janos Farkas
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2020 10:54 AM
To: xiong= .quan@zte.com.cn
Cc: detn= et-chairs@ietf.org; lberger@labn.net; gregory.mirsky@ztetx.com
Subject: RE: Questions about the Networks in DetNet charter

=C2=A0

Hi Quan.

=C2=A0

The main purpose of the cited sentence is to limit t= he scope of the work to make it reasonable, i.e., not trying to boil the oc= ean. Actually, the main message is that DetNet is not for the big I Interne= t, but for smaller networks than that.

=C2=A0

Networks like mobile backhaul are definitely in scop= e of DetNet. It is actually explicitly there in the DetNet Use Cases https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8578#section-6.2.2.

=C2=A0

Best regards,

Janos

=C2=A0

From: xiong.quan@zte.com.cn <xiong.quan@zte.com.cn>
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2020 4:29 AM
To: detn= et-chairs@ietf.org; Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>; lberger@labn.net<= br> Cc: gr= egory.mirsky@ztetx.com
Subject: Questions about the Networks in DetNet charter

=C2=A0

Dear Chairs,=

=C2=A0

I noticed th= at in DetNet Charter, it mentions that the networks which WG foucs on as fo= llowing shown.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

"The Working Group will initially fo= cus on solutions for networks that are under a single administrative contro= l or within a closed group of administrative control; these include not onl= y campus-wide networks but also can include private WANs. The DetNet WG will not spend energy on solutions for large g= roups of domains such as the Internet."

=C2=A0

Could you please clarify that the WAN =C2= =A0such as=C2=A0Metropolitan area network and=C2=A0Mobile backhaul network= =C2=A0is included in DetNet use case or not?

And does the DetNet WG only focus on the = small networks similier with TSN?

=C2=A0

Your reply is important and appreciated.<= /span>

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Quan

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
--


Gyan Mishra

Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0

M 301 502-1347
13101 Columbia Pike=C2=A0
<= /i>Silver Spring, MD


=
--
--0000000000009444a505a92c50b9-- From nobody Sun Jun 28 15:52:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 088853A0FA1; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:52:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y_B3KUCuBlm4; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:52:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C537B3A0F9F; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:52:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id q3so2185703ilt.8; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:52:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/sJaBdSM7RVN8hs6csjOYxRByVxM2UTnnfOQuJrD3Mg=; b=A2ZvuJb3cIOiOXl3/HyMY3DA8ZaWuoOz9GD8YgfrFem+XW660fN38DAIElKO+PRJpZ uKIYSyRPLQZ9hrUsM6ktxMiTZCGZg6MPmr/zAKib2mYorW/7Mbm0MOamHgp7+/pMb4pj d0KYSD/Rq8UoFJNFgcp4Qq/fNQ0NTAZHNdDnQwN+miEywJKpSO+FHDszA7aoMOJsf5D0 I+mLt5Tm2xAo4moT8J3rR4PMm6CInHbFbk0YWpBEutQ50tHcIPcFmG9fpaL1uN7a+mFi E3kjXOxz3HGgAC5AUTQPITPaqlERfvdyB/5cj0v85Cu/xZBiEksT1kheMhc2gTAALo+J 5Wcg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/sJaBdSM7RVN8hs6csjOYxRByVxM2UTnnfOQuJrD3Mg=; b=mlCdklt4xB5ZvGu/A2tRSPnfZ3+Z4rloZJQwOzIunQTokRtFVrEZmmbx5ZatAgMYK2 WbxvURyeV50jQuiPoAgpEXeKr0JrV9OudKfgh1L9W1xcLyvDFp+cEoCrbabGIfzCarpW TShAOQs1BBLdTmnvujrVvmBbEG2c7aOIKQ6HSuVe022BgmS1+o1VqzVfZ8s2FSAOMdPA VIZ9NFpVCD2LJhAE7Fk7DjJcsisXI8RnURrJO8HQyIjexe8/XiTix+t4HjgikZ5mAG3M 5LbaBbE7J1S1bGGXnco7L7NAX5AyaRymW2tfY9lISk+Bqjdq5Ru7MW0Wwq4Kd/yZFQSd PfBg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532nN3QTBPcBdTPP59rKruqUxdko5impACy7hjK/gyPkvNA087J+ 3hvNjnGzZxqH7HeDJ73zEzOt6DhF1vtGG0YjV5I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyGHeWdF0V1DUQmS1hQr/04LEUhSbAofaX0jqn0uzhB/eTCoV7KTvc9IDHL/1LnUYU9sqBU6bXZo2bPDNQ/IOk= X-Received: by 2002:a92:c530:: with SMTP id m16mr12758806ili.300.1593384724063; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:52:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202006221028453198858@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: From: Gyan Mishra Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 18:51:53 -0400 Message-ID: To: Janos Farkas Cc: "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "detnet@ietf.org" , "gregory.mirsky@ztetx.com" , "lberger@labn.net" , "xiong.quan@zte.com.cn" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000077e9a105a92cca97" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Questions about the Networks in DetNet charter X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 22:52:07 -0000 --00000000000077e9a105a92cca97 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Deterministic networking by definition means the inbound and outbound paths use the same set of nodes and links for the flow. So generally that means no ECMP per packet or per flow as IP ECMP is traditionally an XOR source/destination hash and so is deemed non deterministic predictable path taken by a flow. Thanks Gyan On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 6:17 PM Gyan Mishra wrote: > > My last paragraph related to my question fixed. > > I noticed in the charter or RFC 8578 does not mention non ECMP routing as > deemed deterministic routing used in Detnet. > > Thanks > > Gyan > > On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 6:01 PM Gyan Mishra wrote= : > >> >> I had a generic question related to the Detnet WG charter. >> >> So I understand the focus of latency and jitter time sensitive >> applications such as voice and video over any single administrative doma= in >> which is covers am any carriers network including RAN 4G/5G. Am good wi= th >> all that. >> >> To me the term =E2=80=9Cdeterministic=E2=80=9D from a network routing pe= rspective >> historically precluded ECMP flow based load balancing or for example vxl= an >> source port entropy IP ECMP load balancing. Since IP ECMP load balanci= ng >> is all flow based technically UDP voice and video flows are not impacted= as >> IP ECMP is prevalent in most all providers and enterprises. In the past= , >> IP per packet load existed and that reeked havoc with voice and video UD= P >> RTP based flows out of order packets. Since then most vendors due to >> issues with per packet load balancing over multiple paths have been >> eliminated. >> In my mind anything other then per packet load balanced flows is >> deterministic. >> >> Deterministic routing I would think means in the simplest sense a non >> load balanced single path with no ECMP along the entire path. Another w= ay >> to look at is that you can see the flow along any hop in the path if you >> did a packet capture where non deterministic path for a flow that would = not >> be possible. >> >> I noticed in the charter it does mention ECMP Verdi=E2=80=99s not or in = RFC 8578. >> >> What does the deterministic mean in the context of the WG framework as i= t >> does not seem related to deterministic routing. >> >> >> Kind Regards >> >> Gyan >> >> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 5:35 PM Janos Farkas > 40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Quan. >>> >>> >>> >>> This was my previous response. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Janos >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Janos Farkas >>> *Sent:* Monday, June 22, 2020 10:54 AM >>> *To:* xiong.quan@zte.com.cn >>> *Cc:* detnet-chairs@ietf.org; lberger@labn.net; gregory.mirsky@ztetx.co= m >>> *Subject:* RE: Questions about the Networks in DetNet charter >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Quan. >>> >>> >>> >>> The main purpose of the cited sentence is to limit the scope of the wor= k >>> to make it reasonable, i.e., not trying to boil the ocean. Actually, th= e >>> main message is that DetNet is not for the big I Internet, but for smal= ler >>> networks than that. >>> >>> >>> >>> Networks like mobile backhaul are definitely in scope of DetNet. It is >>> actually explicitly there in the DetNet Use Cases >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8578#section-6.2.2. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Janos >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* xiong.quan@zte.com.cn >>> *Sent:* Monday, June 22, 2020 4:29 AM >>> *To:* detnet-chairs@ietf.org; Janos Farkas ; >>> lberger@labn.net >>> *Cc:* gregory.mirsky@ztetx.com >>> *Subject:* Questions about the Networks in DetNet charter >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Chairs, >>> >>> >>> >>> I noticed that in DetNet Charter, it mentions that the networks which W= G >>> foucs on as following shown. >>> >>> >>> >>> "The Working Group will initially focus on solutions for networks that >>> are under a single administrative control or within a closed group of >>> administrative control; these include not only campus-wide networks but >>> also can include private WANs. The DetNet WG will not spend energy on >>> solutions for large groups of domains such as the Internet." >>> >>> >>> >>> Could you please clarify that the WAN such as Metropolitan area networ= k >>> and Mobile backhaul network is included in DetNet use case or not? >>> >>> And does the DetNet WG only focus on the small networks similier with >>> TSN? >>> >>> >>> >>> Your reply is important and appreciated. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Quan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>> >> -- >> >> >> >> *Gyan Mishra* >> >> *Network Solutions A**rchitect * >> >> >> >> *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD >> >> -- > > > > *Gyan Mishra* > > *Network Solutions A**rchitect * > > > > *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD > > -- *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD --00000000000077e9a105a92cca97 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Deterministic networking by definition mea= ns the inbound and outbound paths use the same set of nodes and links for t= he flow.

So generally th= at means no ECMP per packet or per flow as IP ECMP is traditionally an XOR = source/destination hash and so is deemed non deterministic predictable path= taken by a flow.

Thanks= =C2=A0

Gyan
On Sun, = Jun 28, 2020 at 6:17 PM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote:

My last paragraph related to my qu= estion fixed.

I noticed in the charter or RFC = 8578 does not mention non ECMP routing as deemed deterministic routing used= in Detnet.

Thanks=C2=A0

=
Gyan=

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 6:01 PM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> w= rote:

I had a generic question related to the Detnet WG charter.
<= div dir=3D"auto">
So I understand the focus of l= atency and jitter time sensitive applications such as voice and video over = any single administrative domain which is covers am any carriers network in= cluding RAN 4G/5G.=C2=A0 Am good with all that.

=
To me the term =E2=80=9Cdeterministic=E2=80=9D from= a network routing perspective historically precluded ECMP flow based load = balancing or for example vxlan source port entropy IP ECMP load balancing. = =C2=A0 Since IP ECMP load balancing is all flow based technically UDP voice= and video flows are not impacted as IP ECMP is prevalent in most all provi= ders and enterprises.=C2=A0 In the past, IP per packet load existed and tha= t reeked havoc with voice and video UDP RTP based flows out of order packet= s.=C2=A0 Since then most vendors due to issues with per packet load balanci= ng over multiple paths have been eliminated. =C2=A0
= In my mind anything other then per packet load balanced flows is determinis= tic. =C2=A0

Deterministi= c routing I would think means in the simplest sense a non load balanced sin= gle path with no ECMP along the entire path.=C2=A0 Another way to look at i= s that you can see the flow along any hop in the path if you did a packet c= apture where non deterministic path for a flow that would not be possible.<= /div>

I noticed in the charter= it does mention ECMP Verdi=E2=80=99s not or in RFC 8578.=C2=A0

What does the deterministic mean in= the context of the WG framework as it does not seem related to determinist= ic routing.


Kind Regards=C2=A0

Gyan

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 5:35 PM Janos Farkas <= Janos.Farkas=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hi Quan.

=C2=A0

This was my previous response.

=C2=A0

Best regards,

Janos

=C2=A0

From: Janos Farkas
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2020 10:54 AM
To: xiong= .quan@zte.com.cn
Cc: detn= et-chairs@ietf.org; lberger@labn.net; gregory.mirsky@ztetx.com
Subject: RE: Questions about the Networks in DetNet charter

=C2=A0

Hi Quan.

=C2=A0

The main purpose of the cited sentence is to limit t= he scope of the work to make it reasonable, i.e., not trying to boil the oc= ean. Actually, the main message is that DetNet is not for the big I Interne= t, but for smaller networks than that.

=C2=A0

Networks like mobile backhaul are definitely in scop= e of DetNet. It is actually explicitly there in the DetNet Use Cases https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8578#section-6.2.2.

=C2=A0

Best regards,

Janos

=C2=A0

From: xiong.quan@zte.com.cn <xiong.quan@zte.com.cn>
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2020 4:29 AM
To: detn= et-chairs@ietf.org; Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>; lberger@labn.net<= br> Cc: gr= egory.mirsky@ztetx.com
Subject: Questions about the Networks in DetNet charter

=C2=A0

Dear Chairs,=

=C2=A0

I noticed th= at in DetNet Charter, it mentions that the networks which WG foucs on as fo= llowing shown.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

"The Working Group will initially fo= cus on solutions for networks that are under a single administrative contro= l or within a closed group of administrative control; these include not onl= y campus-wide networks but also can include private WANs. The DetNet WG will not spend energy on solutions for large g= roups of domains such as the Internet."

=C2=A0

Could you please clarify that the WAN =C2= =A0such as=C2=A0Metropolitan area network and=C2=A0Mobile backhaul network= =C2=A0is included in DetNet use case or not?

And does the DetNet WG only focus on the = small networks similier with TSN?

=C2=A0

Your reply is important and appreciated.<= /span>

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Quan

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
--


Gyan Mishra

Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0

M 301 502-1347
13101 Columbia Pike=C2=A0
<= /i>Silver Spring, MD


=
--


Gyan Mishra

Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0

M 301 502-1347
13101 Columbia Pike=C2=A0
<= /i>Silver Spring, MD


=
--
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multipart/alternative; boundary="----------172ff8d6e65e95277bb91aec5" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.105.234 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1jpqj4-003jPG-PK X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-105-234.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([11.5.0.140]) [100.15.105.234]:32794 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 3 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] [DetNet] Discussion on the WAN application in DetNet charter X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 10:09:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------172ff8d6e65e95277bb91aec5 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quan, Please read the use cases document -- which are just examples BTW. As previously stated DetNet's scope is NOT limited to small or even single administrative control. "networks that are under a single administrative control or within a closed group of administrative control" includes any size network as well as any network under multiple party control when those parties cooperate on that control. For example this may include all networks controlled by your favorite national mobile operator, anyone they buy network services from and anyone they sell services to. just as an example. If you have a specific use case that you'd like to verify I suggest to describe it to the WG -- it's often easier to talk specifics than hypotheticals. Lou ---------- On June 29, 2020 5:22:54 AM wrote: > Hi Lou, Janos and Andy, > > > Thanks for your clarification! It is very appreciated! > > > > > I probably understand the scope of the DetNet. The networks which are in a > single administrative control are in scope of the DetNet. > > For example, the mobile backhaul network which is in a single > administrative control is defintly included in DetNet. > > But what about the small networks which belong to different domains and > large networks which belong to a single domain? > > IMO, the description in charter is confuesd. It only mentions the > campus-wide networks and private WANs. > > > > > Best Regards, > > Quan > > > > > >>Re: [Detnet] [DetNet] Discussion on the WAN application in DetNet charter >>"Andrew G. Malis" Sun, 28 June 2020 21:21 UTCShow header > > >>Quan, > >> Mobile backhaul is absolutely in scope, see section 6 of RFC 8578 for a >> discussion. In addition, section 10 talks about its use with 5G bearer >> networks. That RFC also has a number of other use cases. > >> Cheers, >> Andy > > > On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:28 PM Janos Farkas > wrote: > >> I fully agree with Lou. >> >> >> >> DetNet is NOT limited to small networks. >> >> As I wrote before, the key point is that DetNet is not for the big I >> Internet. One reason is not to try to boil the ocean. >> >> Note that a key motivation for establishing DetNet was to be able to go >> larger scale than TSN. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Janos >> >> >> >> *From:* Lou Berger > *Sent:* Sunday, June 28, 2020 12:28 PM >> *To:* xiong.quan@zte.com.cn; detnet@ietf.org> *Cc:* Janos Farkas >> om>; detnet-chairs@ietf.org> *Subject:* Re: >> [Detnet] [DetNet] Discussion on the WAN application in >> DetNet charter >> >> >> >> Quan >> >> The key statement below is "networks that are under a single >> administrative control or within a closed group of administrative control" >> -- this statement allows for any sized network and does NOT restrict >> DetNets to " small networks ". >> >> I suspect the types of networks you mention below will generally be built >> "under a single administrative control or within a closed group of >> administrative control". >> >> Lou >> ------------------------------ >> >> On June 28, 2020 3:42:40 AM wrote: >> >> Dear Chairs and WG, >> >> >> >> I noticed that in DetNet Charter, it mentions that the networks which WG >> foucs on as following shown. >> >> "The Working Group will initially focus on solutions for networks that are >> under a single administrative control or within a closed group of >> administrative control; these include not only campus-wide networks but >> also can include private WANs. The DetNet WG will not spend energy on >> solutions for large groups of domains such as the Internet." >> >> IMO, this description seenms to restrict the WAN application and limit the >> DetNet to the small networks. >> >> I am not sure the WAN such as Metropolitan area network and Mobile >> backhaul network is in the scope of DetNet. >> >> Could you please make some clarification about that? Thanks! >> >> >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Quan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> detnet mailing list >> >> detnet@ietf.org> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet> > > ---------- > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > ------------172ff8d6e65e95277bb91aec5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------------172ff8d6e65e95277bb91aec5-- From nobody Mon Jun 29 23:54:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 078633A0F3B for ; Mon, 29 Jun 2020 23:54:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com 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Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] [DetNet] Discussion on the WAN application in DetNet charter X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 10:05:50 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------17304b08b3066bc277b19c5b4b Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quan, Multi-domain is also in scope when those domains are "within a closed group of administrative control". Lou ---------- On June 30, 2020 2:54:41 AM wrote: > Hi Lou, > > > Thanks for your further clarification! > > I totally get that the DetNet mainly focus on a single administrative > control not a domain. > > In that case, DetNet can provide the end-to-end control and deterministric > properties. > > > > > Best Regards, > > Quan > > > > >>Re: [Detnet] [DetNet] Discussion on the WAN application in DetNet charter >>Lou Berger Mon, 29 June 2020 10:09 UTCShow header > > >>Quan, > >>Please read the use cases document -- which are just examples BTW. > >>As previously stated DetNet's scope is NOT limited to small or even single >>administrative control. "networks that are under a single administrative >>control or within a closed group of administrative control" includes any >>size network as well as any network under multiple party control when >>those parties cooperate on that control. > >>For example this may include all networks controlled by your favorite >>national mobile operator, anyone they buy network services from and anyone >>they sell services to. just as an example. > >>If you have a specific use case that you'd like to verify I suggest to >>describe it to the WG -- it's often easier to talk specifics than >>hypotheticals. > >>Lou > > > > > ---------- > On June 29, 2020 5:22:54 AM wrote: > >> Hi Lou, Janos and Andy, >> >> >> Thanks for your clarification! It is very appreciated! >> >> >> >> >> I probably understand the scope of the DetNet. The networks which are in a >> single administrative control are in scope of the DetNet. >> >> For example, the mobile backhaul network which is in a single >> administrative control is defintly included in DetNet. >> >> But what about the small networks which belong to different domains and >> large networks which belong to a single domain? >> >> IMO, the description in charter is confuesd. It only mentions the >> campus-wide networks and private WANs. >> >> >> >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Quan >> >> >> >> >> >>>Re: [Detnet] [DetNet] Discussion on the WAN application in DetNet charter >>>"Andrew G. Malis" Sun, 28 June 2020 21:21 UTCShow header >> >> >>>Quan, >> >>> Mobile backhaul is absolutely in scope, see section 6 of RFC 8578 for a >>> discussion. In addition, section 10 talks about its use with 5G bearer >>> networks. That RFC also has a number of other use cases. >> >>> Cheers, >>> Andy >> >> >> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:28 PM Janos Farkas >> wrote: >> >>> I fully agree with Lou. >>> >>> >>> >>> DetNet is NOT limited to small networks. >>> >>> As I wrote before, the key point is that DetNet is not for the big I >>> Internet. One reason is not to try to boil the ocean. >>> >>> Note that a key motivation for establishing DetNet was to be able to go >>> larger scale than TSN. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Janos >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Lou Berger > *Sent:* Sunday, June 28, 2020 12:28 PM >>> *To:* xiong.quan@zte.com.cn; detnet@ietf.org> *Cc:* Janos Farkas >>> om>gt;om>; detnet-chairs@ietf.org> *Subject:* Re: >>> [Detnet] [DetNet] Discussion on the WAN application in >>> DetNet charter >>> >>> >>> >>> Quan >>> >>> The key statement below is "networks that are under a single >>> administrative control or within a closed group of administrative control" >>> -- this statement allows for any sized network and does NOT restrict >>> DetNets to " small networks ". >>> >>> I suspect the types of networks you mention below will generally be built >>> "under a single administrative control or within a closed group of >>> administrative control". >>> >>> Lou >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> On June 28, 2020 3:42:40 AM wrote: >>> >>> Dear Chairs and WG, >>> >>> >>> >>> I noticed that in DetNet Charter, it mentions that the networks which WG >>> foucs on as following shown. >>> >>> "The Working Group will initially focus on solutions for networks that are >>> under a single administrative control or within a closed group of >>> administrative control; these include not only campus-wide networks but >>> also can include private WANs. The DetNet WG will not spend energy on >>> solutions for large groups of domains such as the Internet." >>> >>> IMO, this description seenms to restrict the WAN application and limit the >>> DetNet to the small networks. >>> >>> I am not sure the WAN such as Metropolitan area network and Mobile >>> backhaul network is in the scope of DetNet. >>> >>> Could you please make some clarification about that? Thanks! >>> >>> >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> >>> Quan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> detnet mailing list >>> >>> detnet@ietf.org>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet>> >> ---------- >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet> > > ---------- > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > ------------17304b08b3066bc277b19c5b4b Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Quan,

Multi-domain is also in scope= when those domains are "within a closed group of administrative control".<= /p>

Lou

On June 30, 2020 2:54:41 AM <xiong.quan@zte.com.cn> wrote:

Hi Lou,


Thanks for your further cla= rification!

I totally get that the DetNet mainly focus on a single ad= ministrative control not a domain.

In that case, DetNet can provide t= he end-to-end control and deterministric properties.


Best = Regards,

Quan




>Re: [Detnet] [DetNet] Discussion on the W= AN application in DetNet charter

>Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> Mon, 29 June 2020 10:09 UTCShow header

>Quan,

>Please read the use cases document -- which are just examples BTW.

>As previously stated DetNet's scope is NOT limited to small or even sin=
gle=20
>administrative control.  "networks that are under a single administrati=
ve=20
>control or within a closed group of administrative control" includes an=
y=20
>size network  as well as any network under multiple party control when=
=20
>those parties cooperate on that control.

>For example this may include all networks controlled by your favorite=
=20
>national mobile operator, anyone they buy network services from and any=
one=20
>they sell services to.  just as an example.

>If you have a specific use case that you'd like to verify I suggest to=
=20
>describe it to the WG -- it's often easier to talk specifics than=20
>hypotheticals.

>Lou




----------
On June 29, 2020 5:22:54 AM <xiong.quan@zte.com.cn> =
wrote:

> Hi Lou, Janos and Andy,
>
>
> Thanks for your clarification! It is very appreciated!
>
>
>
>
> I probably understand the scope of the DetNet.  The networks which are=
 in a=20
> single  administrative control are in scope of the DetNet.
>
> For example, the mobile backhaul network which is in a single=20
> administrative control is defintly included in DetNet.
>
> But what about the small networks which belong to different domains an=
d=20
> large networks which  belong to a single domain?
>
> IMO,  the description in charter is confuesd.  It only mentions the=20
> campus-wide networks and private WANs.
>
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Quan
>
>
>
>
>
>>Re: [Detnet] [DetNet] Discussion on the WAN application in DetNet c=
harter
>>"Andrew G. Malis" <agmalis@gmail.com> Sun, 28 Ju=
ne 2020 21:21 UTCShow header
>
>
>>Quan,
>
>> Mobile backhaul is absolutely in scope, see section 6 of RFC 8578 =
for a
>> discussion. In addition, section 10 talks about its use with 5G be=
arer
>> networks. That RFC also has a number of other use cases.
>
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:28 PM Janos Farkas=20
> <Janos.Farkas=3D40ericsson.com@=
dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
>> I fully agree with Lou.
>>
>>
>>
>> DetNet is NOT limited to small networks.
>>
>> As I wrote before, the key point is that DetNet is not for the big=
 I
>> Internet. One reason is not to try to boil the ocean.
>>
>> Note that a key motivation for establishing DetNet was to be able =
to go
>> larger scale than TSN.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Janos
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>> *S=
ent:* Sunday, June 28, 2020 12:28 PM
>> *To:* xiong.quan@zte.com.cn; detnet@ietf.org> *=
Cc:* Janos Farkas=20
>> <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>om>gt;om>; detnet-chairs@ietf.org> *Subject:* Re:=20
>> [Detnet] [DetNet] Discussion on the WAN application in
>> DetNet charter
>>
>>
>>
>> Quan
>>
>> The key statement below is "networks that are under a single
>> administrative control or within a closed group of administrative =
control"
>> -- this statement allows for any sized network and does NOT restri=
ct
>> DetNets to " small networks ".
>>
>> I suspect the types of networks you mention below will generally b=
e built
>> "under a single administrative control or within a closed group of
>> administrative control".
>>
>> Lou
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> On June 28, 2020 3:42:40 AM <xiong.quan@zte.com.cn=
> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Chairs and WG,
>>
>>
>>
>> I noticed that in DetNet Charter, it mentions that the networks wh=
ich WG
>> foucs on as following shown.
>>
>> "The Working Group will initially focus on solutions for networks =
that are
>> under a single administrative control or within a closed group of
>> administrative control; these include not only campus-wide network=
s but
>> also can include private WANs. The DetNet WG will not spend energy=
 on
>> solutions for large groups of domains such as the Internet."
>>
>> IMO, this description seenms to restrict the WAN application and l=
imit the
>> DetNet to the small networks.
>>
>> I am not sure the WAN such as Metropolitan area network and Mobile
>> backhaul network is in the scope of DetNet.
>>
>> Could you please make some clarification about that? Thanks!
>>
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Quan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> detnet mailing list
>>
>> detnet@ietf.org>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> detnet mailing list
>> detnet@ietf.org> detnet@ietf.org> https://w=
ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet>


_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
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To: Lou Berger , "xiong.quan@zte.com.cn" , "detnet@ietf.org" CC: "agmalis@gmail.com" , "janos.farkas@ericsson.com" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] [DetNet] Discussion on the WAN application in DetNet charter Thread-Index: AQHWTf1p9710ne1YWUiuTOC+azVwXajvxkcg Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 16:24:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: <202006291721150302451@zte.com.cn> <172ff8d6cb0.277b.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <172ff8d6cb0.277b.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: labn.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;labn.net; dmarc=none action=none header.from=dolby.com; x-originating-ip: [104.129.202.58] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: dcc5f178-786e-44cb-df43-08d81d121a38 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR06MB4245: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-forefront-prvs: 0450A714CB x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 6h51rvk9W5RivMEzQy3wMJSjgD4rsJ518b21dEhQ2PXlL3Ikm6c7dTJpvnJMxSEfuSuIUhN3L9XUrD5UwRIjyAQj4jCys2xmcyAjWrZXdrBDq3ZLbFKOIZvapP/qauU3DoPAU0m3kxXhDV4cTB+mMR6eE9CE2KEApBME/RteEBeA3LcdI02Ii9doSjxYTP5B3uMTERn+OUmWa/AwiykLl+7d0NkuvBX2Sccv4AX8UgmZ7jTZQJZnSlsmA5Bqs1svhJ7gi10UNa+jTGbfnSKBXF1IFgub/gGfVWeqOSQqkuqN/upo5SBNL5MCn6IAbjyQAtbnpXGH7VFEv9lqwLbg+0XZq81huAxgaV7r7wLs5PR5S8XD2M2rYFrs7GF1PO/66m938mS/Op9LQOA7B4yZ5Q== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:BY5PR06MB6611.namprd06.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:(39850400004)(396003)(366004)(346002)(136003)(376002)(55016002)(316002)(26005)(8676002)(966005)(166002)(83380400001)(55236004)(7696005)(6506007)(478600001)(53546011)(66946007)(4326008)(66446008)(9326002)(186003)(9686003)(76116006)(2906002)(33656002)(64756008)(110136005)(71200400001)(66556008)(5660300002)(86362001)(66574015)(54906003)(8936002)(52536014)(66476007); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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 x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BY5PR06MB6611CB71720675B228D9E84FC46F0BY5PR06MB6611namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: dolby.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BY5PR06MB6611.namprd06.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: dcc5f178-786e-44cb-df43-08d81d121a38 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Jun 2020 16:24:45.8003 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 05408d25-cd0d-40c8-8962-5462de64a318 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: HUipzRpBSoiB0pLuWQh9Wq8Uj/gOBz6TyjsQAPKVuXMH3gtHTu8OuB4VvrREOrsTMayfrTE3ucKE6vklJs5Vdw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR06MB4245 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] [DetNet] Discussion on the WAN application in DetNet charter X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 16:25:28 -0000 --_000_BY5PR06MB6611CB71720675B228D9E84FC46F0BY5PR06MB6611namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Quan, Here is a quote from RFC8578, the DetNet Use Cases: 11.2. Scalable Size DetNet networks range in size from very small (e.g., inside a single indust= rial machine) to very large (e.g., a utility-grid network spanning a whole = country and involving many "hops" over various kinds of links -- for exampl= e, radio repeaters, microwave links, or fiber optic links). However, recal= l that the scope of DetNet is confined to networks that are centrally admin= istered and thereby explicitly excludes unbounded decentralized networks su= ch as the Internet. Note that the DetNet working group did not create a "Requirements" document= - the architecture and design was driven from the Use Cases, so this is as= close to a "requirement" as there is. Ethan (as editor of RFC8578) From: detnet On Behalf Of Lou Berger Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 3:09 AM To: xiong.quan@zte.com.cn; detnet@ietf.org Cc: agmalis@gmail.com; janos.farkas@ericsson.com Subject: Re: [Detnet] [DetNet] Discussion on the WAN application in DetNet = charter Quan, Please read the use cases document -- which are just examples BTW. As previously stated DetNet's scope is NOT limited to small or even single = administrative control. "networks that are under a single administrative c= ontrol or within a closed group of administrative control" includes any siz= e network as well as any network under multiple party control when those p= arties cooperate on that control. For example this may include all networks controlled by your favorite natio= nal mobile operator, anyone they buy network services from and anyone they = sell services to. just as an example. If you have a specific use case that you'd like to verify I suggest to desc= ribe it to the WG -- it's often easier to talk specifics than hypotheticals= . Lou ________________________________ On June 29, 2020 5:22:54 AM > wrote: Hi Lou, Janos and Andy, Thanks for your clarification! It is very appreciated! I probably understand the scope of the DetNet. The networks which are in a= single administrative control are in scope of the DetNet.. For example, the mobile backhaul network which is in a single administrativ= e control is defintly included in DetNet. But what about the small networks which belong to different domains and lar= ge networks which belong to a single domain? IMO, the description in charter is confuesd. It only mentions the campus-= wide networks and private WANs. Best Regards, Quan >Re: [Detnet] [DetNet] Discussion on the WAN application in DetNet charter >"Andrew G. Malis" > Sun, 28 Ju= ne 2020 21:21 UTCShow header >Quan, > Mobile backhaul is absolutely in scope, see section 6 of RFC 8578 for a > discussion. In addition, section 10 talks about its use with 5G bearer > networks. That RFC also has a number of other use cases. > Cheers, > Andy On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:28 PM Janos Farkas wrote: > I fully agree with Lou. > > > > DetNet is NOT limited to small networks. > > As I wrote before, the key point is that DetNet is not for the big I > Internet. One reason is not to try to boil the ocean. > > Note that a key motivation for establishing DetNet was to be able to go > larger scale than TSN. > > > > Regards, > > Janos > > > > *From:* Lou Berger > *Se= nt:* Sunday, June 28, 2020 12:28 PM > *To:* xiong.quan@zte.com.cn; detnet@ietf.or= g> *Cc:* Janos Farkas om>; detnet-chairs@ietf.org> *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] [DetNet] Discussion on the W= AN application in > DetNet charter > > > > Quan > > The key statement below is "networks that are under a single > administrative control or within a closed group of administrative control= " > -- this statement allows for any sized network and does NOT restrict > DetNets to " small networks ". > > I suspect the types of networks you mention below will generally be built > "under a single administrative control or within a closed group of > administrative control". > > Lou > ------------------------------ > > On June 28, 2020 3:42:40 AM wrote: > > Dear Chairs and WG, > > > > I noticed that in DetNet Charter, it mentions that the networks which WG > foucs on as following shown. > > "The Working Group will initially focus on solutions for networks that ar= e > under a single administrative control or within a closed group of > administrative control; these include not only campus-wide networks but > also can include private WANs. The DetNet WG will not spend energy on > solutions for large groups of domains such as the Internet." > > IMO, this description seenms to restrict the WAN application and limit th= e > DetNet to the small networks. > > I am not sure the WAN such as Metropolitan area network and Mobile > backhaul network is in the scope of DetNet. > > Could you please make some clarification about that? Thanks! > > > > Best Regards, > > Quan > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet> > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/detnet> _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet --_000_BY5PR06MB6611CB71720675B228D9E84FC46F0BY5PR06MB6611namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Quan,

Here is a quote from RFC8578, the DetNet Use Cases: =

<= span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:bl= ack;text-decoration:none">11.2.  Scalable Size

DetNet networks range in size from very sm=
all (e.g., inside a single industrial machine) to very large (e.g., a utili=
ty-grid network spanning a whole country and involving many "hops"=
; over various kinds of links -- for example, radio repeaters, microwave li=
nks, or fiber optic links).  However, recall that the scope of DetNet =
is confined to networks that are centrally administered and thereby explici=
tly excludes unbounded decentralized networks such as the Internet.

 

Note that the DetNet working group did not create a = “Requirements” document – the architecture and design was= driven from the Use Cases, so this is as close to a “requirementR= 21; as there is.

 

Ethan (as editor of RFC8578)

 

From: detnet <detnet-bounces@ietf.org> = On Behalf Of Lou Berger
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 3:09 AM
To: xiong.quan@zte.com.cn; detnet@ietf.org
Cc: agmalis@gmail.com; janos.farkas@ericsson.com
Subject: Re: [Detnet] [DetNet] Discussion on the WAN application in = DetNet charter

 

Quan,

Please read the use cases document -- which are= just examples BTW.

As previously stated DetNet's scope is NOT limi= ted to small or even single administrative control.  "networks th= at are under a single administrative control or within a closed group of ad= ministrative control" includes any size network  as well as any network under multiple party control when those parties coo= perate on that control.

For example this may include all networks contr= olled by your favorite national mobile operator, anyone they buy network se= rvices from and anyone they sell services to.  just as an example.

If you have a specific use case that you'd like= to verify I suggest to describe it to the WG -- it's often easier to talk = specifics than hypotheticals.

Lou

On June 29, 2020 5:22:54 AM <xiong.quan@zte.com.cn> wrote:

 

Hi Lou, Janos and Andy,<= /span>

 

Thanks for your clarification! It is very appreciated!=

 

I probably understand the scope of the DetNet.  The netw= orks which are in a single  administrative control are in scope of the= DetNet.. 

For example, the mobile backhaul network which is in a s= ingle administrative control is defintly included in DetNet.

But what about the small networks which belong to different d= omains and large networks which  belong to a single domain?

IMO,  the description in charter is confuesd.  = ;It only mentions the campus-wide networks and private WANs.



Best Regards,

Quan



 

>Re: [Detnet] [DetNet] Discussion on the WAN applicati= on in DetNet charter

>"Andrew G. Malis" <agmalis@gmail.com> Sun, 28 June 2020 21:21 UTCShow header

>Quan,
 
> Mobile backhaul is absolutely in scope, see se=
ction 6 of RFC 8578 for a
> discussion. In addition, section 10 talks abou=
t its use with 5G bearer
> networks. That RFC also has a number of other =
use cases.
 
> Cheers,
> Andy
 
 
On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:28 PM Janos Farkas <Ja=
nos.Farkas=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org><=
/span> wrote:
 
> I fully agree with Lou.

> 


> 


> 


> DetNet is NOT limited to small networks.<=
/o:p>


> 


> As I wrote before, the key point is that DetNe=
t is not for the big I


> Internet. One reason is not to try to boil the=
 ocean.


> 


> Note that a key motivation for establishing De=
tNet was to be able to go


> larger scale than TSN.


> 


> 


> 


> Regards,


> 


> Janos


> 


> 


> 


> *From:* Lou Berger <lberg=
er@labn.net>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 28, 2020 12:28 PM<=
/o:p>


> *To:* xiong.quan@zte.com.cn; detnet@ietf.org> *Cc:* Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>om>;=
 detnet-chairs@ietf.org> *Subject:* Re: [De=
tnet] [DetNet] Discussion on the WAN application in


> DetNet charter


> 


> 


> 


> Quan


> 


> The key statement below is "networks that=
 are under a single


> administrative control or within a closed grou=
p of administrative control"


> -- this statement allows for any sized network=
 and does NOT restrict


> DetNets to " small networks ".<=
/o:p>


> 


> I suspect the types of networks you mention be=
low will generally be built


> "under a single administrative control or=
 within a closed group of


> administrative control".


> 


> Lou


> ------------------------------


> 


> On June 28, 2020 3:42:40 AM <xiong.quan@zte.com.cn> wrote:

> 


> Dear Chairs and WG,


> 


> 


> 


> I noticed that in DetNet Charter, it mentions =
that the networks which WG


> foucs on as following shown.=



> 


> "The Working Group will initially focus o=
n solutions for networks that are


> under a single administrative control or withi=
n a closed group of


> administrative control; these include not only=
 campus-wide networks but


> also can include private WANs. The DetNet WG w=
ill not spend energy on


> solutions for large groups of domains such as =
the Internet."


> 


> IMO, this description seenms to restrict the W=
AN application and limit the


> DetNet to  the small networks.=



> 


> I am not sure the WAN such as Metropolitan are=
a network and Mobile


> backhaul network is in the scope of DetNet.


> 


> Could you please make some clarification about=
 that? Thanks!


> 


> 


> 


> Best Regards,


> 


> Quan


> 


> 


> 


> 


> 


> 


> 


> ______________________________________________=
_


> 


> detnet mailing list


> 


> detnet@ietf.org>=



> h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet>


> 


> 


> ______________________________________________=
_


> detnet mailing list


> detnet@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/detnet>

 

________________________= _______________________

detnet mailing list=

 =

--_000_BY5PR06MB6611CB71720675B228D9E84FC46F0BY5PR06MB6611namp_--

Quan,

Please read the use cases doc= ument -- which are just examples BTW.

As previously stated DetNet's= scope is NOT limited to small or even single administrative control. = "networks that are under a single administrative control or within a close= d group of administrative control" includes any size network  as well = as any network under multiple party control when those parties cooperate on= that control.

For example this may include = all networks controlled by your favorite national mobile operator, anyone t= hey buy network services from and anyone they sell services to.  just = as an example.

If you have a specific use ca= se that you'd like to verify I suggest to describe it to the WG -- it's oft= en easier to talk specifics than hypotheticals.

Lou

On June 29, 2020 5:22:54 AM <xiong.quan@zte.com.cn> wrote:


Hi Lou, Janos and Andy,


I probably understand the scope of the DetNet.  The networks wh= ich are in a single  administrative control are in scope of the DetNet= . 

For example, the mobile backhaul network which is in = a single administrative control is defintly includ= ed in DetNet.

But what about the sm= all networks which belong to different domains and large networks which &nb= sp;belong to a single domain?

IMO,  the description= in charter is confuesd.  It only mentions the = campus-wide networks and private WANs.


<= /span>

Best Regards,

Quan



>Re: [Detnet] [DetNet] Disc= ussion on the WAN application in DetNet charter

>"Andrew G. Malis" <ag= malis@gmail.com> Sun, 28 June 2020 21:21 UTCShow header

>Quan,

> Mobile backhaul is absolutely in scope, see section 6 of RFC 8578 for =
a
> discussion. In addition, section 10 talks about its use with 5G bearer
> networks. That RFC also has a number of other use cases.

> Cheers,
> Andy


On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:28 PM Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> I fully agree with Lou.
>
>
>
> DetNet is NOT limited to small networks.
>
> As I wrote before, the key point is that DetNet is not for the big I
> Internet. One reason is not to try to boil the ocean.
>
> Note that a key motivation for establishing DetNet was to be able to g=
o
> larger scale than TSN.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Janos
>
>
>
> *From:* Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>> *Sent:* =
Sunday, June 28, 2020 12:28 PM
> *To:* xiong.quan@zte.com.cn; detnet@ietf.org> *Cc:* Jan=
os Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>om>; detnet-chairs@ietf.org> *Subject:* Re: [Detnet] [DetNet] Discussi=
on on the WAN application in
> DetNet charter
>
>
>
> Quan
>
> The key statement below is "networks that are under a single
> administrative control or within a closed group of administrative cont=
rol"
> -- this statement allows for any sized network and does NOT restrict
> DetNets to " small networks ".
>
> I suspect the types of networks you mention below will generally be bu=
ilt
> "under a single administrative control or within a closed group of
> administrative control".
>
> Lou
> ------------------------------
>
> On June 28, 2020 3:42:40 AM <xiong.quan@zte.com.cn>=
 wrote:
>
> Dear Chairs and WG,
>
>
>
> I noticed that in DetNet Charter, it mentions that the networks which =
WG
> foucs on as following shown.
>
> "The Working Group will initially focus on solutions for networks that=
 are
> under a single administrative control or within a closed group of
> administrative control; these include not only campus-wide networks bu=
t
> also can include private WANs. The DetNet WG will not spend energy on
> solutions for large groups of domains such as the Internet."
>
> IMO, this description seenms to restrict the WAN application and limit=
 the
> DetNet to  the small networks.
>
> I am not sure the WAN such as Metropolitan area network and Mobile
> backhaul network is in the scope of DetNet.
>
> Could you please make some clarification about that? Thanks!
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Quan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> detnet mailing list
>
> detnet@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis=
tinfo/detnet>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org> https://w=
ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet>


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