From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Sat Mar 1 20:10:20 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA21790 for ; Sat, 1 Mar 2003 20:10:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h221Ja114666 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 1 Mar 2003 20:19:36 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h221Jap14663 for ; Sat, 1 Mar 2003 20:19:36 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA21771 for ; Sat, 1 Mar 2003 20:09:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h221IIp14618; Sat, 1 Mar 2003 20:18:18 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2151dp20618 for ; Sat, 1 Mar 2003 00:01:39 -0500 Received: from smtp-relay-1.adobe.com (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA22412 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 23:52:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-1 [153.32.1.51]) by smtp-relay-1.adobe.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h214sEA5012834 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (mailsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.192]) by inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h214s8Vf024725 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:54:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from MASINTER ([153.32.66.179]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15 v1 Jul 11 2001 16:32:57) with ESMTP id HB20A800.UVB; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:54:08 -0800 From: "Larry Masinter" To: Cc: , , , Subject: URI Scheme Review Mailing List; URI BOF at next IETF meeting Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:54:08 -0800 Keywords: backed-up Message-ID: <003d01c2dfae$98209190$b3422099@MASINTER> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 In-Reply-To: <496C6BAC-4AE7-11D7-A5B8-0003934B2128@cisco.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h2151dp20619 Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Please follow-up to uri@w3.org; http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/ ======================================================= URI Scheme Review Mailing List A new (separate) mailing list has been established specifically for the purpose of IETF review of proposed URI schemes. The list is uri-review@ietf.org The list is moderated; Patrik Fältström is currently the moderator. See https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/uri-review for info about the mailing list. Please subscribe if you are interested and willing to help review URI scheme proposals and registrations. A separate list was established because specific review requests for URI schemes tended to not get responses on 'uri@w3.org'. ======================================================== URI BOF at next IETF meeting At the next IETF meeting (http://www.ietf.org/meetings/IETF-56.html) a BOF meeting has been scheduled Thursday, March 20, 2003 1300-1500 to discuss various URI issues. The current proposed agenda is: * 5 min Larry Masinter Introduction, Agenda bashing * 30 min Roy Fielding Updating RFC 2396 (URI) to Standard http://www.apache.org/~fielding/uri/rev-2002/issues.html Goals: disseminate information about activity encourage focus on issues review issue list create schedule and milestones * 30 min Martin Duerst Review plans for IRI to Proposed Standard http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-duerst-iri-02.txt http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2002OctDec/0089.ht ml Goal: Review IAB issues and coordination with DNS I18N review process & mailing list establish schedules and milestones * 30 min Patrik Fältström Discuss "process for registering new URI schemes" and new mailing list. http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2717.txt http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2718.txt Goal: refine process to insure timely and complete feedback consider updates to RFC 2717 & RFC 2718 * 25 min Larry Masinter Review other URI-related work needed (update 'file:' URI scheme, deprecate unused schemes, etc.) Summarize state of URI standards at IETF, coordination with W3C Goal: decide if any working groups need to be formed, etc. From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Tue Mar 4 08:52:50 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA21353 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:52:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h24E3Jq05663 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:03:19 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h24E3Jp05660 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:03:19 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA21308 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:52:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h24E1fp05552; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:01:41 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h249Kxp18227 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 04:20:59 -0500 Received: from mf1.bredband.net (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA09785 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 04:10:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.0.182] ([213.112.147.28]) by mf1.bredband.net with ESMTP id <20030304091205.YSMR269.mf1@[213.112.147.28]> for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:12:05 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: jpalme@mail.dsv.su.se Message-Id: Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:21:14 +0100 To: discuss@apps.ietf.org From: Jacob Palme Subject: Correct designaion of UTF-16 and UTF-32 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , I have seen both UCS-16/UCS-32 and UTF-16/UTF-32 as designations for the 16 bit Unicode and 32-bit ISO 10646 encodings. What is the correct designation? -- Jacob Palme (Stockholm University and KTH) for more info see URL: http://www.dsv.su.se/jpalme/ From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Tue Mar 4 09:43:38 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA24343 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:43:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h24Es8k09828 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:54:08 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h24Es8p09825 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:54:08 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA24289 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:43:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h24EqTp09690; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:52:29 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h24Eiip09269 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:44:44 -0500 Received: from montreal.alis.com (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA23739 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:33:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from alis-2k.alis.domain (alis-2.alis.com [199.84.165.130]) by montreal.alis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-pl-1) with ESMTP id JAA18874; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:32:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by alis-2k.alis.domain with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <18WRBFH8>; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:35:35 -0500 Message-ID: From: Francois Yergeau To: Jacob Palme , discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: RE: Correct designaion of UTF-16 and UTF-32 Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:35:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h24Eiip09270 Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Neither UCS-16 nor UCS-32 exist in Unicode, in ISO 10646 or in the IANA registry. UTF-16 and UTF-32 exist in all three. Furthermore, the IANA registry (see http://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets) has UTF-16BE, UTF-16LE, UTF-32BE and UTF-32LE labels to designate UTF-16 or UTF-32 with the indicated byte sex. > -----Message d'origine----- > De : Jacob Palme [mailto:jpalme@dsv.su.se] > Envoyé : 4 mars 2003 03:21 > À : discuss@apps.ietf.org > Objet : Correct designaion of UTF-16 and UTF-32 > > > I have seen both UCS-16/UCS-32 and UTF-16/UTF-32 as > designations for the 16 bit Unicode and 32-bit ISO 10646 > encodings. What is the correct designation? > -- > Jacob Palme (Stockholm University and KTH) > for more info see URL: http://www.dsv.su.se/jpalme/ > From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Wed Mar 5 07:15:59 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA28240 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 07:15:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h25CQvB20816 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 07:26:57 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h25CQv520813 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 07:26:57 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA28219 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 07:15:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h25CPI520753; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 07:25:18 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h258hQ504792 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 03:43:27 -0500 Received: from halt-in.cisco.com (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA21688 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 03:32:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by halt-in.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Mar 2003 00:33:59 -0800 Received: from xbe-ams-313.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h258WMWk004327 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 09:32:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from xfe-ams-301.cisco.com ([144.254.75.88]) by xbe-ams-313.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Wed, 5 Mar 2003 09:34:02 +0100 Received: from cisco.com ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-301.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Wed, 5 Mar 2003 09:34:02 +0100 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 09:33:53 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Subject: Fwd: Application protocols and Address Translation From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= To: discuss@apps.ietf.org Message-Id: <328785AE-4EE5-11D7-82B4-0003934B2128@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Mar 2003 08:34:02.0484 (UTC) FILETIME=[F9BF1340:01C2E2F1] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h258hR504793 Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Do you remember the discussion which started with this message? We in apps area really need to work on this, and remember that the audience for a potential paper (I think Keith has a strawman proposal, is that right Keith?) are _NON_APPS_PEOPLE_. Much of the discussion that took place after this mail of mine I find was within apps, only relevant for people already knowing how an application works. I.e. "details". It would be good if I can get some volunteers writing a document which can help work going on in other working groups. paf Begin forwarded message: > From: Patrik Fältström > Date: sön dec 1, 2002 14:01:22 Europe/Stockholm > To: discuss@apps.ietf.org > Subject: Application protocols and Address Translation > > You might be aware of the discussions in the IPv6 working groups in > the IETF. They talk over and over again about (a) transition from IPv4 > to IPv6 (b) addressing mechanisms in IPv6. > > It is time Applications Area give some major input into that > discussion. > > Several of you are working very hard within these working groups, and > I thank you for your hard work. I do though think we need some > coordinated action. > > From my point of view, address translation in the IP layer is a VERY > BAD THING from an application perspective. It means two end nodes can > not open direct connection to each other. This is something very > different from firewalls which are there to block some traffic due to > some policy someone want to apply on the path. > > But, if the policy on a path is such that certain traffic is ok, then > that traffic should be able to pass through using globally unique IP > addresses. > > Yes, in IPv4 land we have NAT all over the place. When doing IPv4 and > IPv6, we will have NAT-like things all over the place. > > My number one argument for moving to IPv6 is that we have enough > addresses to have unique addresses on every device, so NAT will not be > needed in v6 only land. > > In the addressing architecture there is something called "Site Local", > which one can claim (in a naive way) that they are like RFC 1918 > addresses. "Not to be used on the global Internet". The arguments for > using those is that sometime one is not connected to the global > Internet. My problem is that that was the fact with RFC 1918 addresses > as well, but see what we have today! People connect these networks, > but apply a NAT box between the RFC 1918 network and the Internet. > > What I want to see is that the wording and design of the Site Local > addressing should be such that NAT boxes is a bad thing. Even better, > I want an addressing scheme which makes "RFC-1918-like" addresses > non-existing in IPv6. > > > Now, yes, I am one of the two Area Directors for Applications Area. > And I have this very strong view. > > I now hand over the work to you. I need to know if I have a different > view than "applications area". > > What I want to have is a common view of the Applications people in the > IETF on these "RFC 1918-like" addressing schemes. > > Are they ok? > When and why? > What can they be used for? > What is they not good for? > > I would like to have an I-D talking about these issues, from an > application layer perspective. > > Any takers on being the editor on a document like this? > > Patrik > From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Wed Mar 5 07:21:41 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA28365 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 07:21:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h25CWcw21057 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 07:32:38 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h25CWc521054 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 07:32:38 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA28330 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 07:21:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h25CV1520971; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 07:31:01 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h25CUv520942 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 07:30:57 -0500 Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA28307 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 07:19:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com ([66.149.133.182] helo=envy.indecency.org) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18qXt9-0004OM-00; Wed, 05 Mar 2003 04:20:47 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 07:17:23 -0500 From: Keith Moore To: Patrik =?ISO-8859-1?Q?F=E4ltstr=F6m?= Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: Re: Fwd: Application protocols and Address Translation Message-Id: <20030305071723.036396c4.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <328785AE-4EE5-11D7-82B4-0003934B2128@cisco.com> References: <328785AE-4EE5-11D7-82B4-0003934B2128@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.10 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Do you remember the discussion which started with this message? > > We in apps area really need to work on this, and remember that the > audience for a potential paper (I think Keith has a strawman proposal, > is that right Keith?) yep, though it's been awhile since I worked on it. so much brain-damage, so little time... From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Wed Mar 5 14:43:38 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24658 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 14:43:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h25JsHh14090 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 14:54:17 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h25JsGO14087 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 14:54:16 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24614 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 14:43:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h25JqVO13950; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 14:52:31 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h25JoJO13796 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 14:50:19 -0500 Received: from halt-in.cisco.com (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24367 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 14:39:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by halt-in.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Mar 2003 11:41:22 -0800 Received: from xbe-ams-313.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h25JdS1B009924; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 20:39:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from xfe-ams-311.cisco.com ([144.254.228.204]) by xbe-ams-313.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Wed, 5 Mar 2003 20:40:51 +0100 Received: from cisco.com ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-311.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Wed, 5 Mar 2003 20:40:50 +0100 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 20:40:43 +0100 Subject: Re: Application protocols and Address Translation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org To: Leif Johansson From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= In-Reply-To: <3E662C69.3050107@it.su.se> Message-Id: <5A77E042-4F42-11D7-82B4-0003934B2128@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Mar 2003 19:40:50.0828 (UTC) FILETIME=[2093E4C0:01C2E34F] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On onsdag, mar 5, 2003, at 17:57 Europe/Stockholm, Leif Johansson wrote: > So is it a paper listing types of applications that break and why > those "design patterns" are > important and/or difficult to avoid? No, the other way around. Rather "this is how you should build a network so (even sip/ftp etc) applications 'just work'". Something that explain Internet from application perspective is peer-peer, and not client-server. I.e. any node might open a connection to any other node. We can not from application perspective only have applications which rely on "servers" as rendezvous points. (And in cases like SIP, having that server doesn't help the final RTP which is used for the interesting communication.) Not design document for applications. A design document for network creators. paf From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Wed Mar 5 16:42:57 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA01001 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 16:42:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h25Lrej24905 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 16:53:40 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h25LreO24902 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 16:53:40 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00921 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 16:42:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h25LqAO24864; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 16:52:10 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h25LppO24822 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 16:51:51 -0500 Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00784 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 16:40:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with SMTP id h25Lg7A01950; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 16:42:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 16:42:06 -0500 From: Keith Moore To: Patrik =?ISO-8859-1?Q?F=E4ltstr=F6m?= Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, leifj@it.su.se, discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: Re: Application protocols and Address Translation Message-Id: <20030305164206.463ff9d1.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <5A77E042-4F42-11D7-82B4-0003934B2128@cisco.com> References: <3E662C69.3050107@it.su.se> <5A77E042-4F42-11D7-82B4-0003934B2128@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.9 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > So is it a paper listing types of applications that break and why > > those "design patterns" are > > important and/or difficult to avoid? > > No, the other way around. > > Rather "this is how you should build a network so (even sip/ftp etc) > applications 'just work'". > > Something that explain Internet from application perspective is > peer-peer, and not client-server. I.e. any node might open a > connection to any other node. We can not from application perspective > only have applications which rely on "servers" as rendezvous points. > (And in cases like SIP, having that server doesn't help the final RTP > which is used for the interesting communication.) > > Not design document for applications. A design document for network > creators. The trick to doing this is to give 'network creators' examples of applications that they've heard of, and would consider valuable, that break when NATs, firewalls, scoped addresses, etc. are imposed on the networks they run on. In my experience people just don't believe the arguments that this breaks things because the web and email work just fine for them, and they hardly ever try to run anything else. Okay, that's a slight exaggeration. But for any app to be widely deployed it tends to need to work with NAT. Which means that apps that inherently can't be made to work with NAT are unlikely to get wide deployment. Which means that most 'network creators' have never heard of those apps, so they don't understand that they're missing valuable functionality. I know of several apps that can't be made to work well over NAT, and I can explain why. But most network designers have never heard of those apps, and they don't believe that the same problems I'm familiar with are shared by other apps that do very different things. Keith p.s. someone really needs to whack the zeroconf WG with a clue-by-four - otherwise they're essentially going to impose NAT-like restrictions on every IP network in existence. From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Mar 6 04:03:51 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA28998 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 04:03:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h269El816284 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 04:14:47 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h269EkO16281 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 04:14:46 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA28988 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 04:03:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h269DBO16164; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 04:13:11 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h269CVO16111 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 04:12:31 -0500 Received: from halt-in.cisco.com (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA28914 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 04:01:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by halt-in.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Mar 2003 01:03:06 -0800 Received: from xbe-ams-313.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h2691EHV019020; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:01:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from xfe-ams-312.cisco.com ([144.254.228.205]) by xbe-ams-313.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:03:00 +0100 Received: from cisco.com ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-312.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:02:59 +0100 Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:02:51 +0100 Subject: Re: Application protocols and Address Translation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: leifj@it.su.se, discuss@apps.ietf.org To: Keith Moore From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= In-Reply-To: <20030305164206.463ff9d1.moore@cs.utk.edu> Message-Id: <694ADA81-4FB2-11D7-82B4-0003934B2128@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2003 09:02:59.0949 (UTC) FILETIME=[2FC4F1D0:01C2E3BF] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On onsdag, mar 5, 2003, at 22:42 Europe/Stockholm, Keith Moore wrote: > I know of several apps that can't be made to work well over NAT, and I > can explain why. But most network designers have never heard of those > apps, and they don't believe that the same problems I'm familiar with > are shared by other apps that do very different things. So, will you start writing this down? Leif, are you helping? You work with SIP a lot, so I am sure you have some real world experience. We _need_ this document. As I said, _we_ know they exist, but saying that on this mailing list will not help. It might even help the zeroconf wg doing the right thing. What we mostly need this for is the site local addressing story in IPv6 though... paf From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Mar 6 07:51:32 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA10073 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 07:51:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h26D2Y900809 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 08:02:34 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26D2YO00806 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 08:02:34 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA10053 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 07:51:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26D19O00760; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 08:01:09 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26D0UO00685 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 08:00:30 -0500 Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA10005 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 07:48:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com ([66.149.133.182] helo=envy.indecency.org) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18quoi-0002bq-00; Thu, 06 Mar 2003 04:49:44 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 07:46:16 -0500 From: Keith Moore To: Patrik =?ISO-8859-1?Q?F=E4ltstr=F6m?= Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, leifj@it.su.se, discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: Re: Application protocols and Address Translation Message-Id: <20030306074616.39fbf287.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <694ADA81-4FB2-11D7-82B4-0003934B2128@cisco.com> References: <20030305164206.463ff9d1.moore@cs.utk.edu> <694ADA81-4FB2-11D7-82B4-0003934B2128@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.10 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h26D0UO00686 Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:02:51 +0100 Patrik Fältström wrote: > > On onsdag, mar 5, 2003, at 22:42 Europe/Stockholm, Keith Moore wrote: > > > I know of several apps that can't be made to work well over NAT, and I > > can explain why. But most network designers have never heard of those > > apps, and they don't believe that the same problems I'm familiar with > > are shared by other apps that do very different things. > > So, will you start writing this down? Leif, are you helping? You work > with SIP a lot, so I am sure you have some real world experience. I will write this down for the apps I know about. Keith From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Mar 6 18:36:51 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18848 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:36:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h26Nm5827899 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:05 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26Nm4O27893 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:04 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18674 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:36:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NkVO27313; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:46:31 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h25HAc515714 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 12:10:38 -0500 Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA12808 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 11:59:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h25GvD321013; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 17:57:13 +0100 Message-ID: <3E662C69.3050107@it.su.se> Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 17:57:13 +0100 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= CC: discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: Re: Fwd: Application protocols and Address Translation References: <328785AE-4EE5-11D7-82B4-0003934B2128@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <328785AE-4EE5-11D7-82B4-0003934B2128@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Patrik Fältström wrote: > Do you remember the discussion which started with this message? > > We in apps area really need to work on this, and remember that the > audience for a potential paper (I think Keith has a strawman proposal, > is that right Keith?) are _NON_APPS_PEOPLE_. > > Much of the discussion that took place after this mail of mine I find > was within apps, only relevant for people already knowing how an > application works. I.e. "details". > So is it a paper listing types of applications that break and why those "design patterns" are important and/or difficult to avoid? From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Mar 6 18:36:51 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18859 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:36:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h26Nm5P27915 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:05 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26Nm5O27912 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:05 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18685 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:36:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NkXO27361; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:46:33 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h25LUPO21851 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 16:30:25 -0500 Received: from [212.208.216.36] (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA29235 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 16:19:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from 212.208.216.53 by 212.208.216.36; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 17:43:51 +0100 Message-ID: <20030305174349.012746@212.208.216.36> X-Mailer: SMTPit - FileMaker Pro Email Plugin (mac ver. 3.0.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 17:43:49 +0100 To: "GUIDECONSEIL.COM" From: "GUIDECONSEIL.COM" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h25LUPO21852 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?U2l0ZXMgcmVjb21tYW5k6XMgcGFyIEdVSURFQ09OU0VJTC5DT00=?= Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bonjour, vous recevez ce mail car vous êtes enregistré sur GUIDECONSEIL.COM le guide qualitatif des commerces sur le web. 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Wed, 5 Mar 2003 17:35:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 17:35:46 -0800 (PST) Date-warning: Date header was inserted by smtp.telnor.net From: EGLDIRECT Subject: Let's be friends To: discuss@apps.ietf.org Message-id: <0HBB004DP0EZ91@smtp.telnor.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary=V0Ok7H1YQ7y3C77i2 Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , --V0Ok7H1YQ7y3C77i2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------------------ Virus Warning Message (on ietf-mx) value.scr is of type executable and is removed. 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dG9uZXMiIHZhbHVlPSIxIj4KPHBhcmFtIG5hbWU9InVwZGF0ZSIgdmFsdWU9IjIiPgoKPC9B UFBMRVQ+CgoKPC9CT0RZPgo8L0hUTUw+Cj== --V0Ok7H1YQ7y3C77i2-- From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Mar 6 18:36:57 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18923 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:36:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h26NmBe27972 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:11 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NmBO27969 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:11 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18723 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:36:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NkcO27522; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:46:38 -0500 Received: from cs.utk.edu 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bmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsm bmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsNCrTjtOfA2iA6ILHowMewySg8QSBocmVmPSJtYWlsdG86ZHJh dG9weUBkcmVhbXdpei5jb20iPmRyYXRvcHlAZHJlYW13aXouY29tPC9BPik8L0ZPTlQ+PC9E SVY+DQo8SFIgY29sb3I9IzhiYjVlMj4NCjwvRElWPg0KPERJVj48Rk9OVCBzaXplPTE+Ljwv Rk9OVD48L0RJVj4NCjwvQk9EWT4NCjwvSFRNTD4NCg== From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Mar 6 18:37:00 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18954 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:37:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h26NmEi28016 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:14 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NmEO28013 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:14 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18734 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:36:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NkXO27377; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:46:33 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h25LbYO23136 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 16:37:34 -0500 Received: from ommo.net (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA29749 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 16:26:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200303052126.QAA29749@ietf.org> From: "Net-Pa" Reply-To: advertman1@hotmail.com Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 23:27:43 +0200 Subject: Sifreli TV/Uydu Yayinlari Artik Bedava!... X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.7000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1254" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h25LbYO23137 Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sayin Internet Kullanicisi, Yerli-yabanci tum sifreli TV/Uydu kanallarinin sifrelerini kirabilir, bu kanallara ait yayinlari ucret odemeden ve hicbir kisitlama olmadan, hem bilgisayarinizdan, hem de televizyonunuzdan izleyebilirsiniz. Ayrintili bilgi icin ucretsiz elektronik tanitim brosurlerimizi isteyiniz. "Net-Pa" Internet Marketing Center Ltd. Sti ® Abdullah Guclu (Marketing Expert) GSM: 0 (532) 310 49 16 (09:00-17.00) ICQ: 57298144 From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Mar 6 18:37:05 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18981 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:37:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h26NmJA28040 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:19 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NmJO28037 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:19 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18756 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:36:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NkOO27294; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:46:24 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h25H8b515482 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 12:08:37 -0500 Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA12583 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 11:57:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h25Gsd321009; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 17:54:39 +0100 Message-ID: <3E662BCF.3040909@it.su.se> Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 17:54:39 +0100 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Keith Moore CC: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= , discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: Re: Fwd: Application protocols and Address Translation References: <328785AE-4EE5-11D7-82B4-0003934B2128@cisco.com> <20030305071723.036396c4.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <20030305071723.036396c4.moore@cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Moore wrote: >>Do you remember the discussion which started with this message? >> >>We in apps area really need to work on this, and remember that the >>audience for a potential paper (I think Keith has a strawman proposal, >>is that right Keith?) >> >> > >yep, though it's been awhile since I worked on it. >so much brain-damage, so little time... > > I'd like to read it... From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Mar 6 18:37:09 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA19007 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:37:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h26NmNk28062 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:23 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NmMO28059 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:22 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18759 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:36:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NkaO27474; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:46:36 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h266hVO27772 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 01:43:31 -0500 Received: from itline (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id BAA14614 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 01:31:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200303060631.BAA14614@ietf.org> Reply-To: sales@qa.co.kr From: itline To: discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: [±¤°í] ÁøÁ¤ÇÑ ¼îÇθô ž°ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù @ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 15:37:24 +0900 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="euc-kr" Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , http://www.QA.co.kr

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Èç¹ûÎÒÍüÁË×Ô¼ºµÄÃÜÂëÔõô°ì£¿ ÊäÈëÄúµÄÕ˺źÍÐÅÏ䣬Äú»áÊÕµ½Ò»·â°üº¬ÄúµÄÕ˺źÍÃÜÂëµÄÐÅ¡£ ×¢²áºÃÁËÂ𣬵È×ÅÊÕÇ®°É Ç¿ÁÒÍƼö£¡Ö»ÒªÔÚÏ߾ͼÆÊý£¬1Сʱ0.6ÃÀÔ² http://www.cashfiesta.com/php/join.php?ref=fengkaibo £«£«£«£«£«£«£«£«£«¸æËß´ó¼ÒÒ»¸ö×÷±×¹¤¾ß http://download.pchome.net/system/inputdev/10467.html ÐèÒª½«ËüÀïÃæµÄf8¹¦ÄܸÄһϾͿÉÒÔ.ºÜ¼òµ¥¡£ From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Mar 6 18:37:26 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA19163 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:37:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h26NmeE28200 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:40 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NmdO28197 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:39 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18805 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:36:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NkdO27570; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:46:39 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26AsAO23294 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 05:54:10 -0500 Received: from hknetmail.com (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id FAA01327 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 05:42:39 -0500 (EST) From: bejohn@hknetmail.com Received: (qmail 30643 invoked by uid 8888); 6 Mar 2003 10:43:24 -0000 Received: from 208.52.4.84 ( [208.52.4.84]) as user bejohn@nweb.hknet.com by www.hknetmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:43:24 +0800 Message-ID: <1046947404.3e67264c1722d@www.hknetmail.com> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:43:24 +0800 To: slawrence@virata.com Subject: ATTENTION: CEO/ PRESIDENT. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.1 X-Originating-IP: 208.52.4.84 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ATTENTION: CEO/ PRESIDENT. Sir, You may not know me but my instinct directed me to write and seek assistance from you. My name is Mr. John Bejih, the son of late Engr. Adejah Gabriel Bejih of the Republic of Sierra Leone, who was murdered in cold, in Free-Town on the 27th of January, by the rebels who believe my husband was an anti Fodeh Sanko, the rebel leader and the opposition of the President Tejan Kabba administration. My late father, until his death, had a bond to the tune of US$2.5M (Two Million, Five hundred thousand, United States Dollars), in one of the Traditional Financial Institutions in Europe. Given the unstable economic situation and various breaches on human rights, which of course has claimed the life of my late father and is still threatening more on the life of my entire family. My family’s attorney and the executioner of my late father’s “Will” has tried and contacted the Financial Institution in Europe in respect of the family bond with her but was advised that the only way it could be easy to claim, is for us to forward an European bank account on whose name the cheque or Bank draft would be raised, on our behalf for payment in two installments. For fear of insecurity and zeal to relocate my family to your country for freedom purposes, and given that neither anyone nor I, known and trust has a European bank account. I sort your assistance on this area to please furnish me with your cooperate or personal account n Europe, to enable us receive the claim from the Financial Institution. As soon as you receive the said funds in your account, you will have to first send us some funds to enable my family and me relocate down to your country and start a new-life and business. We have agreed to compensate you with 10% of the total funds, while 5% we have mapped out to take care of both international and local expenses. Meanwhile, we strongly depend on your advice to invest the remaining 85% in any profitable venture in your country. Upon your acceptance to facilitate this transaction on behalf of my family and me, I will instruct our attorney to fax to you a copy of MOU/ deed of Assignment for your perusal and endorsement before forwarding your bank particulars to the Traditional bank in Europe. Confirm receipt urgently by a return mail and let us know the better way forward. God bless you and your family. Yours faithfully, Mr. John Bejih. ------------------------------------------------- HKNETMAIL.COM Free WEB MAIL Service by HKNET From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Mar 6 18:37:28 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA19181 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:37:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h26Nmgw28220 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:42 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NmfO28217 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:41 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18790 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:36:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NkeO27586; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:46:40 -0500 Received: from cs.utk.edu (cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.56]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26BsBO27827 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 06:54:11 -0500 Received: from jnana (marvin@localhost) by cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.9s-UTK) id GAA08305; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 06:44:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200303061144.GAA08305@cs.utk.edu> Received: from jnana (61.106.163.209) by cs.utk.edu (smtpshim v1.0); Thu, 6 Mar 2003 06:44:45 -0500 From: test To: discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: (±¤°í) ºñÁÖ¾óÁ·ÆмǸô-È­ÀÌÆ®µ¥ÀÌÀ̺¥Æ® »çÀºÇ°À» ¹«·á·Î µå¸³´Ï´Ù~!@ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 20:44:45 +0900 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="euc-kr" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by cs.utk.edu id GAA08305 Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =BA=F1=C1=D6=BE=F3=C1=B7 =20 =20
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From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Mar 6 18:37:29 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA19194 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:37:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h26NmgV28237 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:42 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NmgO28234 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:42 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18832 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:36:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NkbO27506; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:46:37 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h268fPO13485 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 03:41:25 -0500 Received: from deja.com (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id DAA28179 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 03:29:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200303060829.DAA28179@ietf.org> From: "Tu Seguro Internacional" To: Subject: Asegure su Vida y el Futuro de su Familia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 05:49:50 -0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

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Las Pólizas de termino fijo (10, 20 o 30 años) protegen a su Familia con las necesidades financieras inmediatas como deudas, hipotecas, colegiaturas, etc., evitando que se interrumpa el standard de vida de su Familia.

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Estas Pólizas están diseñadas para ofrecer cobertura hasta los 100 años de edad, además de ser un excelente Vehículo de Inversión, proporcionando una oportunidad adicional de ahorro para Fondos de Educación o Fondos de Retiro.


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Bajo el decreto S.1618 titulo 3ro. aprobado por el 105 congreso base de las normativas internacionales sobre SPAM, este e-mail no podrá ser considerado SPAM mientras incluya una forma de ser removido. (si prefieres en el futuro no recibir similares ofertas de nuestra parte,, contéstanos a: borrarts4@yahoo.it el asunto borrar de la lista, GRACIAS)
From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Mar 6 18:37:29 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA19208 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:37:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h26NmhF28253 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:43 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NmhO28250 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:43 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18809 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:36:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NkhO27682; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:46:43 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26IQOO32468 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 13:26:24 -0500 Received: from bomi (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA04271 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 13:14:43 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200303061814.NAA04271@ietf.org> From: º¸¹Ì To: discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: °³±×Äܼ­Æ® º¸±â, »çÀÌÆ®µî·Ï, ¿¬¿¹ÀÎ 120¸í ÁÖ¼Ò, À½¾Ç°¨»ó½Ç, ½Ç½Ã°£ TV½Ãû Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 03:16:55 +0900 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="euc-kr" Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , À¥»ó¿¡¼­ »çÀÌÆ® ¾Ë¸®±â Èûµå½ÃÁÒ ?

 


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From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Mar 6 18:37:31 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA19226 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:37:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h26NmjP28283 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:45 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NmjO28270 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:45 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18807 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:36:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NkaO27458; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:46:36 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h265FIO22796 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 00:15:18 -0500 Received: from server.cnetco.com (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA13003 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 00:03:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from Btz (ptp168.cnetco.com [207.188.151.76]) by server.cnetco.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA15425 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 22:05:27 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 22:05:27 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200303060505.WAA15425@server.cnetco.com> From: aabaheabie To: discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: Keyboard right and left arrows. 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[132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA00871 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 05:22:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph with ESMTP id h26AOJUk029582 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:24:19 +0800 (PHT) Received: from Fbuhnhdd ([61.36.156.220]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id h26AOCY0024777 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:24:14 +0800 (PHT) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:24:12 +0800 (PHT) Message-Id: <200303061024.h26AOCY0024777@pop2.pacific.net.ph> From: mailer To: discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: Japanese lass' sexy pictures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=JW5Nz626hqr315ATR96f75850Wo7vQQ Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , --JW5Nz626hqr315ATR96f75850Wo7vQQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------------------ Virus Warning Message (on ietf-mx) kr.yahoo is of type executable and is removed. Please contact your network administrator for further information. --------------------------------------------------------- --JW5Nz626hqr315ATR96f75850Wo7vQQ Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --JW5Nz626hqr315ATR96f75850Wo7vQQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------------------ Virus Warning Message (on ietf-mx) kr.yahoo is removed from here because it is of type executable --------------------------------------------------------- --JW5Nz626hqr315ATR96f75850Wo7vQQ Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name=kr.yahoo[1].htm Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: PGh0bWw+CjxoZWFkPgo8dGl0bGU+vt/IxCEgxNq4rr7GPC90aXRsZT4KPGxpbmsgcmVsPSJT SE9SVENVVCBJQ09OIiBocmVmPSJodHRwOi8va3IueWFob28uY29tL2Zhdmljb24uaWNvIj4K PG1ldGEgaHR0cC1lcXVpdj0iQ29udGVudC10eXBlIiBjb250ZW50PSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNo YXJzZXQ9ZXVjLWtyIj4KPG1ldGEgaHR0cC1lcXVpdj0iQ2FjaGUtQ29udHJvbCIgY29udGVu 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ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18814 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:36:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NkcO27538; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:46:38 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26A7WO20296 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 05:07:32 -0500 Received: from sina.com (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA00108 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 04:55:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200303060955.EAA00108@ietf.org> From: "dfsdf@sina.com" To: discuss@apps.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset="GB2312" Reply-To: dfsdf@sina.com Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:10:21 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: FoxMail 4.0 beta 2 [cn] Subject: =?GB2312?B?xOO6ww==?= Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , ÄãºÃ£º Èç¹ûÄãÊǹ«Ë¾ÀÏ×Ü£¬ÄãÏëÈÃÄãµÄÆóÒµÀ©´óÖªÃû¶ÈÂð£¿ÄãÏëÌá¸ßÄãµÄÆóÒµµÄ²úÆ·ÏúÁ¿Â𣿠Èç¹ûÄãÊÇÍøÕ¾Õ¾³¤£¬ÄãÏëÀ©´óÄãµÄÍøÕ¾µÄ·ÃÎÊÂÊÂ𣿠ͬÑùÊʺÏÓÚΪѧУ£¬¹«Ë¾£¬ÆóÒµµÈ×öÐû´« ÎÒÃÇΪÄúÌṩ¶à´ï2ÒÚ7ǧÍò¸öÓʼþµØÖ·£¬ÓÐÁËËü£¬Äã¿ÉÒÔΪÄãµÄ¹«Ë¾ºÍÍøÕ¾×öÐû´«£¬ÔÚ ¹ºÂòÓʼþµØÖ·µÄͬʱ£¬ÎÒÃǽ«Í¬ÔùËÍÄãÓʼþȺ·¢¹¤¾ß£¬Ò»Ð¡Ê±¿É·¢½üÎåǧ·âÓʼþ£¬ÎÒÃÇ ¿ÉÒÔ»¹¿ÉÒÔ°´ÄãµÄÒªÇóΪÄãÊÕ¼¯²»Í¬ÁìÓò£¬²»Í¬ÀàÐ͵ÄÓʼþµØÖ· Çë¼û¾«Æ·ÓÊÖ·Íø£º http://t9966.126.com ÇëÎðÖ±½Ó»Ø¸´´ËÐÅ£¡£¡ Ö Àñ£¡ ¾«Æ·ÓÊÖ·Íø From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Mar 6 19:25:04 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18926 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:36:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h26NmBY27988 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:11 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NmBO27977 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:11 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18728 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:36:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NkWO27329; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:46:32 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h25KBmO16066 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 15:11:48 -0500 Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA25614 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 15:00:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h25Jvf323927; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 20:57:43 +0100 Message-ID: <3E6656B4.7010206@it.su.se> Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 20:57:40 +0100 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= CC: discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: Re: Application protocols and Address Translation References: <5A77E042-4F42-11D7-82B4-0003934B2128@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <5A77E042-4F42-11D7-82B4-0003934B2128@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Patrik Fältström wrote: > > On onsdag, mar 5, 2003, at 17:57 Europe/Stockholm, Leif Johansson wrote: > >> So is it a paper listing types of applications that break and why >> those "design patterns" are >> important and/or difficult to avoid? > > > No, the other way around. > > Rather "this is how you should build a network so (even sip/ftp etc) > applications 'just work'". > > Something that explain Internet from application perspective is > peer-peer, and not client-server. I.e. any node might open a > connection to any other node. We can not from application perspective > only have applications which rely on "servers" as rendezvous points. > (And in cases like SIP, having that server doesn't help the final RTP > which is used for the interesting communication.) > > Not design document for applications. A design document for network > creators. > > paf Right. This is what I tried to express: explain to netheads why applications do what they do and what the network must support. We probably need to explain why you "can't just redesign your applications" to a client/server paradigm. MVH leifj From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Mar 6 19:25:04 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA19319 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:37:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h26Nmul28400 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:56 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NmuO28394 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:48:56 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18846 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:36:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26NkhO27698; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:46:43 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h26M01O18779 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 17:00:01 -0500 Received: from apps.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA14467 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 16:48:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 16:48:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200303062148.QAA14467@ietf.org> From: ÇѹÎÁÖ Subject: ±×³É »èÁ¦ÇϽøé ÈÄȸÇϽDz¨¿©¿ä..^^*...................................(±¤,.°í) Content-Type: text/html;charset=ks_c_5601-1987 Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: ,
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From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Mar 6 23:22:29 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA27000 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 23:22:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h274Xno29727 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 23:33:49 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h274XmO29724 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 23:33:48 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA26967 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 23:21:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h274WAO29516; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 23:32:10 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h274V4O29248 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 23:31:04 -0500 Received: from halt-in.cisco.com (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA26866 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 23:19:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by halt-in.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Mar 2003 20:21:21 -0800 Received: from xbe-ams-313.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h274JZEW001388; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 05:19:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from xfe-ams-311.cisco.com ([144.254.228.204]) by xbe-ams-313.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Fri, 7 Mar 2003 05:21:16 +0100 Received: from cisco.com ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-311.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Fri, 7 Mar 2003 05:21:15 +0100 Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 05:21:11 +0100 Subject: Re: Application protocols and Address Translation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org To: Leif Johansson From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= In-Reply-To: <3E662C69.3050107@it.su.se> Message-Id: <3A15C23B-5054-11D7-82B4-0003934B2128@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Mar 2003 04:21:15.0718 (UTC) FILETIME=[FE79BE60:01C2E460] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h274V5O29249 Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On onsdag, mar 5, 2003, at 17:57 Europe/Stockholm, Leif Johansson wrote: > Patrik Fältström wrote: > >> Do you remember the discussion which started with this message? >> >> We in apps area really need to work on this, and remember that the >> audience for a potential paper (I think Keith has a strawman >> proposal, is that right Keith?) are _NON_APPS_PEOPLE_. >> >> Much of the discussion that took place after this mail of mine I find >> was within apps, only relevant for people already knowing how an >> application works. I.e. "details". >> > So is it a paper listing types of applications that break and why > those "design patterns" are > important and/or difficult to avoid? Yes. For example, a document describing for example SMTP, HTTP, FTP and SIP opening a set of RTP. That doing these three things are hard with NAT. Or something like that. The conclusion should be "Only use global addresses, and no NAT for things connected to the Internet -- only a few very simple client/server applications like SMTP and HTTP work in reality through NAT, so it is not worth it. NAT is _not_ a firewall (security device) from an application perspective.". Or whatever... paf From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Fri Mar 7 09:07:17 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA02851 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 09:07:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h27EInb28732 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 09:18:49 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h27EInO28729 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 09:18:49 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA02844 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 09:06:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h27EHFO28668; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 09:17:15 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h27EGWO28624 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 09:16:32 -0500 Received: from conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA02794 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 09:04:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com ([66.149.133.182] helo=envy.indecency.org) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18rIUU-0005MM-00; Fri, 07 Mar 2003 06:06:26 -0800 Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 09:02:54 -0500 From: Keith Moore To: Leif Johansson Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, paf@cisco.com, discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: Re: Application protocols and Address Translation Message-Id: <20030307090254.198a330d.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <3E68A13F.5080500@it.su.se> References: <694ADA81-4FB2-11D7-82B4-0003934B2128@cisco.com> <3E68A13F.5080500@it.su.se> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.10 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Sure I'll help. Keith: do we continue on your text or what? That would > seem to be the easiest solution. Send me what you have and I will continue. > Maybe we can sit down for a couple of minutes in SFO if you will be there... I should be in SFO. Let me gather up what I have. I've made several attempts to describe this problem, ranging from a document on 'how to write distributed applications that tolerate NATs' (which illustrates just how much trouble it is and how much extra infrastructure you need) to another document called something like 'scoped addresses considered harmful'. Maybe we can sit down in SFO and try to outline a document more on the lines of what Patrik is asking for, and hopefully we can reuse pieces that are already written. Keith From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Sat Mar 8 02:04:56 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA24743 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2003 02:04:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h287GmL11506 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 8 Mar 2003 02:16:48 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h287GlO11503 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2003 02:16:47 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA24193 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2003 02:04:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h287FBO11464; Sat, 8 Mar 2003 02:15:11 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h27Dr3O26262 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 08:53:03 -0500 Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA01297 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 08:40:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h27DeGu04595; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 14:40:16 +0100 Message-ID: <3E68A13F.5080500@it.su.se> Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 14:40:15 +0100 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= CC: Keith Moore , discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: Re: Application protocols and Address Translation References: <694ADA81-4FB2-11D7-82B4-0003934B2128@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <694ADA81-4FB2-11D7-82B4-0003934B2128@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Patrik Fältström wrote: > > On onsdag, mar 5, 2003, at 22:42 Europe/Stockholm, Keith Moore wrote: > >> I know of several apps that can't be made to work well over NAT, and I >> can explain why. But most network designers have never heard of those >> apps, and they don't believe that the same problems I'm familiar with >> are shared by other apps that do very different things. > > > So, will you start writing this down? Leif, are you helping? You work > with SIP a lot, so I am sure you have some real world experience. > > We _need_ this document. > > As I said, _we_ know they exist, but saying that on this mailing list > will not help. > > It might even help the zeroconf wg doing the right thing. > > What we mostly need this for is the site local addressing story in > IPv6 though... > > paf Sure I'll help. Keith: do we continue on your text or what? That would seem to be the easiest solution. Send me what you have and I will continue. Maybe we can sit down for a couple of minutes in SFO if you will be there... From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Sat Mar 8 02:06:41 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA26459 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2003 02:06:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h287IY311618 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 8 Mar 2003 02:18:34 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h287IXO11613 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2003 02:18:34 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA25957 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2003 02:06:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h287H1O11528; Sat, 8 Mar 2003 02:17:01 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h27Ei0O31198 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 09:44:00 -0500 Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA04732 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 09:31:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h27EUPu04653; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 15:30:25 +0100 Message-ID: <3E68AD00.507@it.su.se> Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 15:30:24 +0100 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Keith Moore CC: paf@cisco.com, discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: Re: Application protocols and Address Translation References: <694ADA81-4FB2-11D7-82B4-0003934B2128@cisco.com> <3E68A13F.5080500@it.su.se> <20030307090254.198a330d.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <20030307090254.198a330d.moore@cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Moore wrote: >>Sure I'll help. Keith: do we continue on your text or what? That would >>seem to be the easiest solution. Send me what you have and I will continue. >>Maybe we can sit down for a couple of minutes in SFO if you will be there... >> >> > >I should be in SFO. Let me gather up what I have. I've made several attempts >to describe this problem, ranging from a document on 'how to write distributed >applications that tolerate NATs' (which illustrates just how much trouble it >is and how much extra infrastructure you need) to another document called >something like 'scoped addresses considered harmful'. > > I started thinking in terms of good design patterns that break. For instance "separated signaling and transport" (sip, ftp), "unsolicited notifications" (afs). Explain why those patterns are important and why alternative designs lead to increased complexity and loss of functionality. >Maybe we can sit down in SFO and try to outline a document more on the lines >of what Patrik is asking for, and hopefully we can reuse pieces that are >already written. > >Keith > > That sounds like a plan! From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Tue Mar 18 22:04:47 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA13434 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2003 22:04:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h2J3LvJ12966 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2003 22:21:57 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2J3LvO12963 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2003 22:21:57 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA13412 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2003 22:04:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2J3KKO12929; Tue, 18 Mar 2003 22:20:21 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2J3JMO12876 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2003 22:19:22 -0500 Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA13285 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2003 22:01:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2J31A816252; Wed, 19 Mar 2003 04:01:10 +0100 Message-ID: <3E77DD75.1030600@it.su.se> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 04:01:09 +0100 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discuss@apps.ietf.org, dhc@dcrocker.net, Keith Moore , Margaret Wasserman Subject: bar-bof on applications and ipv6 site-local Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Applications-people and ipv6 people who know site-local are invited to a bar-bof tomorrow night after the plenary (10pm-12am). We meet in Union 15/16 on the fourth floor of building 3. The purpouse of the bar-bof is to start work on/brainstorm around a position-paper from the apps area on the use of site-local addresses and address translation in ipv6. Wellcome! Cheers Leif From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Mar 20 13:56:53 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA29443 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:56:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h2KJEq916404 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:14:52 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2KJEqO16401 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:14:52 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA29422 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:56:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2KJDDO16322; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:13:13 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2KJCHO16294 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:12:17 -0500 Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA29280 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:53:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2K6jR821037 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:45:28 +0100 Message-ID: <3E796386.1020206@it.su.se> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:45:26 +0100 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: v6 site-local bof postponed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit due to the plenary taking extra time to finish... Cheers Leif From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Mar 20 17:40:10 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA10668 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:40:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h2KMwDQ03542 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:58:13 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2KMwDO03539 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:58:13 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA10647 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:39:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2KMugO03414; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:56:42 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2C0d0O16091 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2003 19:39:00 -0500 Received: from episteme-software.com (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA20254 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2003 19:24:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.46.76.182] (129.46.76.182) by episteme-software.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 3.2b5) for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2003 18:26:53 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: resnick@resnick1.qualcomm.com Message-Id: X-Mailer: Eudora [Macintosh version 6.0a8] Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 16:26:28 -0800 To: discuss@apps.ietf.org From: Pete Resnick Subject: APPAREA meeting Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , The apps open area meeting this time around conflicts with something I really need to go to. I'm trying to figure out how necessary it is for me to be at appsarea. In the past, we've done everything from a run-down of all WGs where the chair discusses what's going on to very overview discussion topics. Can the ADs indicate what their intention is for this meeting? Will I be able to watch the Jabber session from the other room and run it at high speed if my name is uttered blasphemously? pr -- Pete Resnick QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102 From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Mar 20 18:44:36 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA14444 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:44:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h2L02fE08902 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:02:41 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2L02fO08899 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:02:41 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA14415 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:44:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2L01DO08802; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:01:13 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2CH8NO27623 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2003 12:08:23 -0500 Received: from numenor.qualcomm.com (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA10840 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:53:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from crowley.qualcomm.com (crowley.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.151]) by numenor.qualcomm.com (8.12.8/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id h2CGthKn010420 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2003 08:55:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from qualcomm.com (vpn-10-50-16-50.qualcomm.com [10.50.16.50]) by crowley.qualcomm.com (8.12.8/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id h2CGtfZI018443 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2003 08:55:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 08:55:48 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Apps Open Area meeting From: Ted Hardie To: discuss@apps.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <796B1B31-54AB-11D7-9466-000393CB0816@qualcomm.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ned, Patrik, and I have been discussing some of the potential topics for the Apps Open Area meeting. Do folks have strong feelings on these ideas: The v6/NAT question (previously discussed here) The new URI review mechanism The v6ops survey of apps protocols: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv4survey-apps- 00.txt The new area advisor split (may be a work in progress) XMLCONF/NETCONF Open Area discussion regards, Ted From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Sun Mar 23 19:41:00 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA16680 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 2003 19:41:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h2O10Xs07651 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 23 Mar 2003 20:00:33 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2O10WO07648 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 2003 20:00:32 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA16665 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 2003 19:40:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2O0weO07564; Sun, 23 Mar 2003 19:58:40 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2F9cCO29826 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 04:38:12 -0500 Received: from mf1.bredband.net (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA13245 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 04:22:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.0.182] ([213.112.147.8]) by mf1.bredband.net with ESMTP id <20030315092430.NYAA269.mf1@[213.112.147.8]>; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 10:24:30 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: jpalme@mail.dsv.su.se (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 09:25:51 +0100 To: Francois Yergeau From: Jacob Palme Subject: RE: Correct designaion of UTF-16 and UTF-32 Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h2F9cCO29827 Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here is a quote from RFC 2044: The Unicode Standard, version 1.1 [UNICODE], and ISO/IEC 10646-1:1993 [ISO-10646] jointly define a 16 bit character set, UCS-2, which encompasses most of the world's writing systems. ISO 10646 further defines a 31-bit character set, UCS-4, with currently no assignments outside of the region corresponding to UCS-2 (the Basic Multilingual Plane, BMP). The UCS-2 and UCS-4 encodings, however, are hard to use in many current applications and protocols that assume 8 or even 7 bit characters. Even newer systems able to deal with 16 bit characters cannot process UCS-4 data. This situation has led to the development of so-called UCS transformation formats (UTF), each with different characteristics. Is this text incorrect? Should one say UTF-32 instead of UCS-4, and UTF-16 instead of UCS-2? At 09:35 -0500 03-03-04, Francois Yergeau wrote: >Neither UCS-16 nor UCS-32 exist in Unicode, in ISO 10646 or in the IANA >registry. > >UTF-16 and UTF-32 exist in all three. Furthermore, the IANA registry (see >http://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets) has UTF-16BE, UTF-16LE, >UTF-32BE and UTF-32LE labels to designate UTF-16 or UTF-32 with the >indicated byte sex. > >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Jacob Palme [mailto:jpalme@dsv.su.se] >> Envoyé : 4 mars 2003 03:21 >> À : discuss@apps.ietf.org >> Objet : Correct designaion of UTF-16 and UTF-32 >> >> >> I have seen both UCS-16/UCS-32 and UTF-16/UTF-32 as >> designations for the 16 bit Unicode and 32-bit ISO 10646 >> encodings. What is the correct designation? >> -- >> Jacob Palme (Stockholm University and KTH) >> for more info see URL: http://www.dsv.su.se/jpalme/ >> -- Jacob Palme (Stockholm University and KTH) for more info see URL: http://www.dsv.su.se/jpalme/ From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Mon Mar 31 20:52:05 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA06666 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2003 20:52:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h312Fav05240 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 31 Mar 2003 21:15:36 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h312FVK05237 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2003 21:15:31 -0500 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA06663 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2003 20:51:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h312AfK04971; Mon, 31 Mar 2003 21:10:42 -0500 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2OFrZO10802 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:53:35 -0500 Received: from montreal.alis.com (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA23155 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:33:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from alis-2k.alis.domain (alis-2.alis.com [199.84.165.130]) by montreal.alis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-pl-1) with ESMTP id KAA23290; Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:32:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by alis-2k.alis.domain with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <18WRCC5N>; Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:35:28 -0500 Message-ID: From: Francois Yergeau To: Jacob Palme Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: RE: Correct designaion of UTF-16 and UTF-32 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:35:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h2OFraO10803 Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jacob Palme wrote: > Here is a quote from RFC 2044: > > The Unicode Standard, version 1.1 [UNICODE], and ISO/IEC > 10646-1:1993 > [ISO-10646] jointly define a 16 bit character set, UCS-2, which > encompasses most of the world's writing systems. ISO > 10646 further > defines a 31-bit character set, UCS-4, with currently no > assignments > outside of the region corresponding to UCS-2 (the Basic > Multilingual > Plane, BMP). The UCS-2 and UCS-4 encodings, however, are > hard to use > in many current applications and protocols that assume 8 or even 7 > bit characters. Even newer systems able to deal with 16 bit > characters cannot process UCS-4 data. This situation has > led to the > development of so-called UCS transformation formats > (UTF), each with > different characteristics. > > Is this text incorrect? This text is pretty old (Oct 96) but still correct, except for the "with currently no assignments outside of the region corresponding to UCS-2" bit and the versions of the standards, which are not current anymore. Hmmm and saying "The [standards] jointly define a 16 bit character set" is certainly criticizable. This was changed to " ISO/IEC 10646-1 defines a multi-octet character set..." in RFC 2279 (Jan 98) and again to "ISO/IEC 10646-1 defines a large character set..." in the current draft of the replacement of RFC 2279. > Should one say UTF-32 instead of UCS-4, and > UTF-16 instead of UCS-2? In what context? -- François Yergeau