From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 22:22:45 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11215 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrls-0001CJ-GC for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:27 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA43MKEo004563 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:20 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlp-000198-4o for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:19 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11160 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrll-00042g-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:13 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlk-00042Z-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:12 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrll-0000zo-F4; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:13 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AEQpP-0007Dl-Hp for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 05:11:55 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA13598 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 05:11:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEQpL-00070m-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 05:11:52 -0500 Received: from melkebalanse.gulbrandsen.priv.no ([217.19.171.131]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEQpL-00070I-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 05:11:51 -0500 Message-Id: From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Cc: ietf@ietf.org, lemonade@ietf.org, IETF RFC-822 list , IMAA list , IMAP Extensions WG , ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org, Abhijit Menon-Sen , discuss@apps.ietf.org, IETF/IDN WG References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:15:17 +0100 Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Mark Crispin writes: > On Tue, 28 Oct 2003, Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote: >> (I agree that it's currently nearly impossible to use computers if >> one isn't familiar with the Latin script, of course.) > > Which probably makes the rest of this discussion academic, unless > we're going to undertake solving *that* problem for Microsoft and the > various UNIX/Linux vendors... You're not appreciating the full complexity of the problem. ;) Not only should the email standards permit MUAs and MTAs of the year 2020 to solve the problem Abhijit mentions, but they should even permit such future programs to interoperate with latinate ones of the present and near future. And if it's too hard for latinate MUAs to implement the IEA standard, that won't happen. --Arnt From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 22:22:46 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11216 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrls-0001Bm-9z for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:27 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA43MKdN004534 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:20 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlp-00019G-5K for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:19 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11161 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrll-00042n-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:13 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlk-00042k-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:12 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrln-00015R-5x; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:15 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AEVUv-0001Pj-2X for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:11:05 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA28196 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:10:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEVUs-0005FB-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:11:02 -0500 Received: from w1309.hostcentric.net ([66.40.78.254]) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEVUr-0005F5-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:11:02 -0500 Received: (qmail 31822 invoked by alias); 28 Oct 2003 15:10:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO DAVIS1) (12.235.201.242) by 0 with SMTP; 28 Oct 2003 15:10:59 -0000 Message-ID: <00a001c39d65$b23177f0$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Mark Crispin" , "Abhijit Menon-Sen" Cc: , , , , , , , , References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:10:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > (I agree that it's currently nearly impossible to use computers if one > > isn't familiar with the Latin script, of course.) > > Which probably makes the rest of this discussion academic, unless we're > going to undertake solving *that* problem for Microsoft and the various > UNIX/Linux vendors... It is currently impossible to use the Internet without knowing the Latin script. However, the goal of most well-designed client software and operating systems is to permit the user to work entirely within their native language, with a fully localized system. This is reaching to India and other countries; Microsoft has introduced fully localized versions of Indic Windows just recently, and Linux vendors are hard at work to produce fully localized versions of their software. Email and Web addresses are the big remaining holdouts for most people. People should not be forced to use a script that they are unfamiliar with, just to use email addresses and sites in their own countries. Even if they are familiar with the Latin script, it is very often a very bad match for their languages, making it very difficult to figure out how native words would be spelled in it. Mark From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 22:22:48 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11269 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrls-0001C8-Dv for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:29 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA43MK12004556 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:20 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlo-000176-6U for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:19 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11143 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlk-000426-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:12 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlj-00041m-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:11 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlh-0000w1-2x; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:09 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AEIS3-0000Gk-VM for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:15:16 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA02369 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:15:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEIS1-0003TF-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:15:13 -0500 Received: from mxout1.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.32.134]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEIS1-0003TC-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:15:13 -0500 Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.32.139]) by mxout1.cac.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with ESMTP id h9S1EwaZ010323; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:14:59 -0800 Received: from Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu [128.95.135.58]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with ESMTP id h9S1Ewx0018732 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:14:58 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:15:00 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) From: Mark Crispin To: Mark Davis cc: Keith Moore , dcrocker@brandenburg.com, paf@cisco.com, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, IMAP Extensions WG , ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@qualcomm.com, hardie@qualcomm.com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> Message-ID: References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Mark Davis wrote: > I'm curious: why do you think that everyone would be satisfied with Latin > characters only, and no non-Latin characters? I didn't say that. I stated my belief that, for reasons of practicality, most individuals in regions which do not use Latin script accept the use of Latin script for multinational exchange. It does not work well for an individual in Japan with surname Tanaka to expect the overwhelming majority of non-Japanese individuals worldwide to know his surname is written with the Han characters for "rice paddy" and "middle", or what those characters look like, or how to enter those characters on the computer. It does, however, work for him to expect that the overwhelming majority of individuals worldwide to know how to deal with the 6 Latin letters that form the romanization "Tanaka". Nor is it very likely that this situation will change in the future. I doubt that many individuals in the world are literate in all the world's active scripts. Literacy in one's native script and basic Latin script is something that most computer users possess today. For domestic exchange only, that pair of Han characters are probably alright. Within Western Europe, it's probably alright to use Latin characters with diacriticals. Perhaps the main problem that needs to be decided in any IEA effort is if it is alright to have email addresses that are only usable in limited areas of the world; or if not, how to represent internationalized email addresses in a usable fashion when (not if) the email address needs to be represented for a person and/or computer is illiterate in that script. A likely side issue is whether it is "good enough" to promote Latin characters with diacriticals to the same status of "everybody must know how to do these" that is required for ASCII. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 22:22:49 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11287 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrls-0001CA-Fm for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:29 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA43MKL4004559 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:20 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlo-00017e-CM for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:19 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11153 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlk-000427-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:12 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlj-00041n-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:11 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlh-0000w9-AR; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:09 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AEIpd-0001nU-G5 for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:39:37 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA03125 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:39:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEIpa-0003jL-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:39:35 -0500 Received: from w1309.hostcentric.net ([66.40.78.254]) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEIpa-0003jF-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:39:34 -0500 Received: (qmail 22048 invoked by alias); 28 Oct 2003 01:39:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO DAVIS1) (129.42.184.35) by 0 with SMTP; 28 Oct 2003 01:39:33 -0000 Message-ID: <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Mark Crispin" Cc: "Keith Moore" , , , , , , , , , , "IMAP Extensions WG" , , , , References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:39:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id UAA03127 Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, I understand more about the context. Based on what I've seen, I think it quite likely that people will want em= ail addresses in their native script, even if that means that outsiders can't (easily) use those email address. After all, it is quite easy to have mul= tiple email addresses. Mr. Tanaka can have one with Latin letters and one with Japanese (e.g. =E3=83=A0=E3=83=AB=E3=82=AF@=E3=82=AB=E3=82=AF.=E3=83=AF=E3= =82=B7=E3=83=B3=E3=82=B0=E3=83=88=E3=83=B3.=E3=82=A8=E3=83=87=E3=82=A5). We should remember that for a great many people in the world, Latin lette= rs are quite unnatural; it'd be a bit like if we had to use Greek letters in all= email addresses. And there are many projects underway in less-developed countri= es to bring computers to masses of people that will even less familiarity with = Latin letters. Mark __________________________________ http://www.macchiato.com =E2=96=BA =E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B7=E0=A5=8D=E0=A4=AF=E0=A4=BE=E0=A4=A6= =E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9A=E0=A5=8D=E0=A4=9B=E0=A5=87=E0=A4=A4=E0=A5=8D=E0=A4=AA=E0= =A4=B0=E0=A4=BE=E0=A4=9C=E0=A4=AF=E0=A4=AE=E0=A5=8D =E2=97=84 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Mark Crispin" To: "Mark Davis" Cc: "Keith Moore" ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; "IMAP Extensions WG" ; ; ; ; Sent: Mon, 2003 Oct 27 17:15 Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA= ) > On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Mark Davis wrote: > > I'm curious: why do you think that everyone would be satisfied with L= atin > > characters only, and no non-Latin characters? > > I didn't say that. I stated my belief that, for reasons of practicalit= y, > most individuals in regions which do not use Latin script accept the us= e > of Latin script for multinational exchange. > > It does not work well for an individual in Japan with surname Tanaka to > expect the overwhelming majority of non-Japanese individuals worldwide = to > know his surname is written with the Han characters for "rice paddy" an= d > "middle", or what those characters look like, or how to enter those > characters on the computer. > > It does, however, work for him to expect that the overwhelming majority= of > individuals worldwide to know how to deal with the 6 Latin letters that > form the romanization "Tanaka". > > Nor is it very likely that this situation will change in the future. I > doubt that many individuals in the world are literate in all the world'= s > active scripts. Literacy in one's native script and basic Latin script= is > something that most computer users possess today. > > For domestic exchange only, that pair of Han characters are probably > alright. Within Western Europe, it's probably alright to use Latin > characters with diacriticals. > > Perhaps the main problem that needs to be decided in any IEA effort is = if > it is alright to have email addresses that are only usable in limited > areas of the world; or if not, how to represent internationalized email > addresses in a usable fashion when (not if) the email address needs to = be > represented for a person and/or computer is illiterate in that script. > > A likely side issue is whether it is "good enough" to promote Latin > characters with diacriticals to the same status of "everybody must know > how to do these" that is required for ASCII. > > -- Mark -- > > http://staff.washington.edu/mrc > Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. > Si vis pacem, para bellum. > From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 22:22:59 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11320 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrmC-0001Lv-1C for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:41 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA43Me1E005200 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:40 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrmA-0001Ln-8a for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:39 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11198 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrm7-00043s-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:35 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrm6-00041z-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:34 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrli-0000x0-4i; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:10 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AEKfu-0001FJ-76 for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:37:42 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA05816 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:37:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEKfq-0004uo-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:37:38 -0500 Received: from mxout5.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.32.135]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEKfq-0004ul-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:37:38 -0500 Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.33.9]) by mxout5.cac.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with ESMTP id h9S3baMk024515; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:37:36 -0800 Received: from Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu [128.95.135.58]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with ESMTP id h9S3bZSS003692 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:37:35 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:37:37 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) From: Mark Crispin To: Mark Davis cc: Keith Moore , dcrocker@brandenburg.com, paf@cisco.com, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, IMAP Extensions WG , ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@qualcomm.com, hardie@qualcomm.com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> Message-ID: References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Mark Davis wrote: > Based on what I've seen, I think it quite likely that people will want email > addresses in their native script, even if that means that outsiders can't > (easily) use those email address. That may well be the case. > We should remember that for a great many people in the world, Latin > letters are quite unnatural; it'd be a bit like if we had to use Greek > letters in all email addresses. And there are many projects underway in > less-developed countries to bring computers to masses of people that > will even less familiarity with Latin letters. I am not convinced that it is possible to use a computer on the Internet anywhere in the world without at least a basic acquaintance with Latin script. I do not believe many individuals (other than primary school children) are literate in their native language but are completely illiterate in Latin script. This does not mean "being able to read or write the English language"; rather, this simply means knowing the Latin script alphabet. Put another way, individuals who are completely illiterate in Latin script are also likely to be illiterate in their native language script as well. No other script on the planet has such international recognition. There is undoubtably a *preference* for one's native script; and that preference should be respected as much as possible. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 22:28:58 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11660 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:28:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrs0-0002Vi-7C for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:28:40 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA43SeCd009637 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:28:40 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlx-0001DU-5w for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:25 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11185 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlt-00043Z-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:21 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlt-00041y-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:21 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlk-0000yd-Kk; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:12 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AEQCA-0003HO-FW for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 04:31:22 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA11735 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 04:31:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEQC7-0006Ie-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 04:31:19 -0500 Received: from [195.167.170.152] (helo=bowl.fysh.org ident=mail) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEQC6-0006Ia-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 04:31:18 -0500 Received: from zefram by bowl.fysh.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AEQC3-0007Da-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:31:15 +0000 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:31:15 +0000 To: Dave Crocker Cc: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-ID: <20031028093114.GC20198@fysh.org> References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: Zefram Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Dave Crocker wrote: > This poses a fundamental >barrier for users needing mail addresses to be expressed in a richer set of >characters, I have yet to see this "need" established. Everyone who has supported internationalised mail addresses has axiomatically assumed such a need, and has conspicuously failed to provide any more detail, such as any of Keith Moore's suggestions. I think the first task in this area should be to investigate the nature and degree of desire for non-ASCII local parts. This desire needs to be weighed against the benefits we derive from writing all local parts in a small, fixed alphabet (ASCII printables). -zefram From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 22:28:59 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11662 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:28:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrs0-0002Ve-5F for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:28:40 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA43Se0R009623 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:28:40 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlx-0001DS-3C for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:25 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11180 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlt-00043V-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:21 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlt-00041w-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:21 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlj-0000yJ-W1; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:11 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AEPZ9-0007Ao-Ts for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:51:04 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA09700 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:50:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEPZ7-0005WB-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:51:01 -0500 Received: from maya20.nic.fr ([192.134.4.152]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEPZ6-0005Vs-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:51:00 -0500 Received: from vespucci.nic.fr (postfix@vespucci.nic.fr [192.134.4.68]) by maya20.nic.fr (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id h9S8oNQW1526872; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:50:23 +0100 (CET) Received: by vespucci.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 1055) id 5FF63FF47; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:50:23 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:50:23 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Mark Davis Cc: Mark Crispin , Keith Moore , dcrocker@brandenburg.com, paf@cisco.com, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, IMAP Extensions WG , ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@qualcomm.com, hardie@qualcomm.com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-ID: <20031028085023.GB6617@nic.fr> References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux testing/unstable X-Kernel: Linux 2.4.21-3-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 05:39:32PM -0800, Mark Davis wrote a message of 76 lines which said: > We should remember that for a great many people in the world, Latin letters are > quite unnatural; it'd be a bit like if we had to use Greek letters in all email > addresses. It would be a bit like if we had to use Greek letters in mathematics :-) From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 22:32:42 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11947 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:32:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrvc-0002tu-Du for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:32:24 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA43WOMq011138 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:32:24 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlt-0001Ca-BL for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:21 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11174 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlq-00043H-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:18 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlp-00042y-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:17 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlo-00018b-Th; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:16 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AEX6y-0003kV-LU for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:54:28 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA07629 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:54:16 -0500 (EST) From: Margaret.Wasserman@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEX6x-0000xU-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:54:27 -0500 Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com ([131.228.20.21]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEX6w-0000xL-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:54:26 -0500 Received: from esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir01nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.33]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id h9SGsPI05938 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:54:25 +0200 (EET) Received: from daebh002.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:54:24 +0200 Received: from bsebe001.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.19.160.13]) by daebh002.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6747); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:54:22 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:54:21 -0500 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Thread-Index: AcOdY3TL2xxUnJupRI2uu4njYAvuPgAD/9pQ To: , , , , , , , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Oct 2003 16:54:22.0543 (UTC) FILETIME=[22FF4DF0:01C39D74] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Excuse me, but could you please constrain this conversation to fewer than 9 (nine!) e-mail lists? The BOF description lists imaa@imc.org as the discussion list, but this discussion is being cc:ed to ietf-imaa@imc.org. I'd suggest that you move this discussion to whichever of those lists is actually correct. Margaret From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 22:32:43 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11950 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:32:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrvc-0002tV-7F for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:32:24 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA43WOd7011119 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:32:24 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrvb-0002t7-Hu for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:32:24 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11910 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:32:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrvY-0004N6-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:32:20 -0500 Received: from manatick.foretec.com ([4.17.168.5] helo=manatick) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrvX-0004N2-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:32:19 -0500 Received: from [132.151.6.22] (helo=optimus.ietf.org) by manatick with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AGrvZ-0008Kc-Gh for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:32:21 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlq-0001AW-4Z; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:18 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AEdtG-0003pP-Es for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:08:47 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA09616 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:08:32 -0500 (EST) From: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEdtC-0003Rs-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:08:43 -0500 Received: from lakehearnglobal.coxinc.com ([206.157.224.254] helo=hatl0ms21.CORP.COX.COM) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEdtC-0003RC-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:08:42 -0500 Received: from catl0ms22.corp.cox.com ([10.62.200.101]) by hatl0ms21.CORP.COX.COM with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:08:13 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by catl0ms22.corp.cox.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:58:56 -0500 Received: from hatl0ms22.CORP.COX.COM ([10.62.201.69]) by catl0ms22.corp.cox.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:35:02 -0500 Received: from bastion2.cox.com ([10.225.2.51]) by hatl0ms22.CORP.COX.COM with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:28:31 -0500 Received: from asgard.ietf.org (asgard.ietf.org [132.151.6.40]) by bastion2.cox.com (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.6) with SMTP id h9SLSRO10130; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:28:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordomo by asgard.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.14) id 1AEajF-0001VS-2l for ietf-list@asgard.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:46:13 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([10.27.2.28]) by asgard.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AEa7u-00033N-AZ for ietf@asgard.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:38 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA20519; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEa7s-0005if-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:36 -0500 Received: from turing-police.cc.vt.edu ([128.173.14.107]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEa7r-0005iU-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:35 -0500 Received: from turing-police.cc.vt.edu (IDENT:valdis@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turing-police.cc.vt.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h9SK7J6P004972; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:19 -0500 Message-Id: <200310282007.h9SK7J6P004972@turing-police.cc.vt.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3 04/04/2003 with nmh-1.0.4+dev To: Mark Davis Cc: Mark Crispin , Keith Moore , dcrocker@brandenburg.com, paf@Cisco.COM, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, IMAP Extensions WG , ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@qualcomm.com, hardie@qualcomm.com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:39:32 PST." <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_-1503687178P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:19 -0500 Precedence: bulk X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Oct 2003 21:28:31.0955 (UTC) FILETIME=[6F9C6230:01C39D9A] Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , --==_Exmh_-1503687178P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:39:32 PST, Mark Davis said: > email addresses. Mr. Tanaka can have one with Latin letters and one wit= h > Japanese (e.g. =E3=83=A0=E3=83=AB=E3=82=AF@=E3=82=AB=E3=82=AF.=E3=83=AF= =E3=82=B7=E3=83=B3=E3=82=B0=E3=83=88=E3=83=B3.=E3=82=A8=E3=83=87=E3=82=A5= ). This gets interesting in the context of a "reply all". Apologies for breaking the UTF-8 in the quote, but it's illustrative - if= the breakage had been in the To/Cc lines, things would have broken even worse= unless whatever scheme we end up using is ASCII-transparent. --==_Exmh_-1503687178P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 iD8DBQE/nsx3cC3lWbTT17ARAlD1AKC74t7EwonvMVVb4YcOTjs6cE9mCwCfX9xR fx4FhsH1KZDlHM6R8Ip+I+A= =61XB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_-1503687178P-- From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 22:32:59 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11997 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:32:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlt-0001CZ-3p for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:28 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA43MLcW004613 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:21 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrls-0001BA-1j for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:20 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11168 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlo-000435-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:16 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlo-00042i-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:16 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlm-00014O-Mu; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:14 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AEVFD-0007lH-W7 for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:54:52 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA26524 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:54:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEVFB-0004o7-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:54:49 -0500 Received: from w1309.hostcentric.net ([66.40.78.254]) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEVFB-0004ns-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:54:49 -0500 Received: (qmail 23826 invoked by alias); 28 Oct 2003 14:54:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO DAVIS1) (12.235.201.242) by 0 with SMTP; 28 Oct 2003 14:54:45 -0000 Message-ID: <006b01c39d63$6d928d70$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" Cc: "Mark Crispin" , "Keith Moore" , , , , , , , , , , "IMAP Extensions WG" , , , , References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028085023.GB6617@nic.fr> Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:54:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0068_01C39D20.5EDF9090" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C39D20.5EDF9090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sigh. I used "Greek" in an analogy because I was hoping that some of the = Latin-only folks out there would at least recognize the name of one = other script. But how comforable would you really be, if = =D9=8A=D9=8F=D9=8F =D9=88=D9=90=D8=B1=D9=90 = =D9=81=D9=8F=D8=B1=D8=B3=D9=90=D8=AF =D8=AA=D9=8F = =D8=B1=D9=8E=D9=90=D8=AF =D9=8E=D9=86 = =D9=90=D9=86=D8=AA=D9=90=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=84=D9=8A = =D8=AF=D9=90=D9=81=D9=81=D9=90=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=86=D8=AA = =D8=B3=D9=83=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=BE=D8=AA=D8=8C = =D8=B3=D9=90=D9=85=D9=BE=D9=84=D9=8A =D8=AA=D9=8F = =D9=8F=D9=86=D8=AF=D9=90=D8=B1=D8=B3=D8=AA=D9=8E=D9=86=D8=AF = =D9=90=D9=85=D9=8E=D9=90=D9=84 = =D9=8E=D8=AF=D8=AF=D8=B1=D9=90=D8=B3=D8=B3=D9=90=D8=B3=D8=8C = =D9=8E=D9=86=D8=AF =D9=8E =D8=B3=D9=83=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=BE=D8=AA = =D8=AA=D9=87=D9=8E=D8=AA =D9=83=D9=8F=D9=8F=D9=84=D8=AF = =D9=8F=D9=86=D9=84=D9=8A = =D9=BE=D9=8E=D8=B1=D8=AA=D9=8E=D9=90=D9=84=D9=84=D9=8A = =D8=B1=D9=90=D9=81=D9=84=D9=90=D9=83=D8=AA =D8=AA=D9=87=D9=90 = =D8=B1=D9=8E=D9=90=D9=84 = =D8=B3=D9=BE=D9=90=D9=84=D9=84=D9=90=D9=86=DA=AF =D9=8F=D9=81 = =D9=8A=D9=8F=D9=8F=D8=B1 =D9=88=D9=8F=D8=B1=D8=AF=D8=B3? Mark __________________________________ =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" To: "Mark Davis" Cc: "Mark Crispin" ; "Keith Moore" = ; ; ; = ; ; ; = ; ; ; = ; "IMAP Extensions WG" ; = ; ; ; = Sent: Tue, 2003 Oct 28 00:50 Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses = (IEA) > On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 05:39:32PM -0800, > Mark Davis wrote=20 > a message of 76 lines which said: >=20 > > We should remember that for a great many people in the world, Latin = letters are > > quite unnatural; it'd be a bit like if we had to use Greek letters = in all email > > addresses.=20 >=20 > It would be a bit like if we had to use Greek letters in mathematics > :-) >=20 > ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C39D20.5EDF9090 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
Sigh. I used "Greek" in an analogy = because I=20 was hoping that some of the Latin-only folks out there would at least=20 recognize the name of one other script. But how comforable = would you=20 really be, if =D9=8A=D9=8F=D9=8F =D9=88=D9=90=D8=B1=D9=90 = =D9=81=D9=8F=D8=B1=D8=B3=D9=90=D8=AF =D8=AA=D9=8F = =D8=B1=D9=8E=D9=90=D8=AF =D9=8E=D9=86 = =D9=90=D9=86=D8=AA=D9=90=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=84=D9=8A = =D8=AF=D9=90=D9=81=D9=81=D9=90=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=86=D8=AA = =D8=B3=D9=83=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=BE=D8=AA=D8=8C = =D8=B3=D9=90=D9=85=D9=BE=D9=84=D9=8A =D8=AA=D9=8F=20 =D9=8F=D9=86=D8=AF=D9=90=D8=B1=D8=B3=D8=AA=D9=8E=D9=86=D8=AF = =D9=90=D9=85=D9=8E=D9=90=D9=84 = =D9=8E=D8=AF=D8=AF=D8=B1=D9=90=D8=B3=D8=B3=D9=90=D8=B3=D8=8C = =D9=8E=D9=86=D8=AF =D9=8E =D8=B3=D9=83=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=BE=D8=AA = =D8=AA=D9=87=D9=8E=D8=AA =D9=83=D9=8F=D9=8F=D9=84=D8=AF = =D9=8F=D9=86=D9=84=D9=8A = =D9=BE=D9=8E=D8=B1=D8=AA=D9=8E=D9=90=D9=84=D9=84=D9=8A = =D8=B1=D9=90=D9=81=D9=84=D9=90=D9=83=D8=AA =D8=AA=D9=87=D9=90=20 =D8=B1=D9=8E=D9=90=D9=84 = =D8=B3=D9=BE=D9=90=D9=84=D9=84=D9=90=D9=86=DA=AF =D9=8F=D9=81 = =D9=8A=D9=8F=D9=8F=D8=B1 =D9=88=D9=8F=D8=B1=D8=AF=D8=B3?

Mark
__________________________________

 <= /DIV>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@jtcsv.com>
Cc: "Mark Crispin" <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>; "Keith = Moore"=20 <moore@cs.utk.edu>; <dcrocker@brandenburg.com>; = <paf@cisco.com>; <ietf-imaa@imc.org>; <idn@ops.ietf.org>; <ietf-822@imc.org>; <ietf@ietf.org>; <ietf-pop3ext@imc.org>; = <lemonade@ietf.org>; <discuss@apps.ietf.org>; "IMAP = Extensions WG"=20 <ietf-imapext@imc.org>; = <ietf-smtp@imc.org>; <presnick@qualcomm.com>; = <hardie@qualcomm.com>; = <ned.freed@mrochek.com>
Sent: Tue, 2003 Oct 28 00:50
Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized = Email=20 Addresses (IEA)

> On Mon, Oct 27, = 2003 at=20 05:39:32PM -0800,
>  Mark Davis <mark.davis@jtcsv.com> wrote =
>  a=20 message of 76 lines which said:
>
> > We should remember = that=20 for a great many people in the world, Latin letters are
> > = quite=20 unnatural; it'd be a bit like if we had to use Greek letters in all=20 email
> > addresses.
>
> It would be a bit like = if we had=20 to use Greek letters in mathematics
> :-)
>
>=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C39D20.5EDF9090-- From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 22:33:29 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA12025 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:33:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlu-0001Cq-7w for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:29 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA43MMgd004630 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:22 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrls-0001Bl-8u for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:22 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11171 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlo-000438-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:16 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlo-00042o-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:16 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrln-00016C-Mq; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:15 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AEVX2-0001Xx-WD for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:13:17 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA28421 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:13:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEVX0-0005I3-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:13:14 -0500 Received: from [195.167.170.152] (helo=bowl.fysh.org ident=mail) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEVWz-0005Hw-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:13:13 -0500 Received: from zefram by bowl.fysh.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AEVWs-0000mk-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:13:06 +0000 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:13:06 +0000 To: Mark Crispin Cc: Keith Moore , dcrocker@brandenburg.com, paf@cisco.com, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@qualcomm.com, hardie@qualcomm.com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-ID: <20031028151306.GA1549@fysh.org> References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> <20031027134403.5eaaee9e.moore@cs.utk.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: Zefram Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Mark Crispin wrote: > In many regions where Latin >diacriticals are used, there is no acceptable transform of a surname to a >form that does not use diacriticals. Simply omitting the diacritical >causes (at least to the inhabitants of those regions) a misspelling. Ah, this one's easy. Local parts aren't limited to Latin letters, they can use all the ASCII printables. Diacriticals are available there, albeit in characters that are shared with other uses. is a perfectly valid email address already. It doesn't start to get tricky until we get into the eastern European languages -- ASCII only intentionally provides western European diacriticals. Cue the debate about whether the diacritic should go before or after the base letter. -zefram From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 22:34:22 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA12085 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:34:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrxD-00031Q-Ot for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:34:04 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA43Y3FM011608 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:34:03 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlz-0001DW-44 for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:28 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11189 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlv-00043l-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:23 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlv-00042r-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:23 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlo-000172-1q; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:16 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AEWTF-0008AM-6b for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:13:28 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04527 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:13:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEWTE-0007TS-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:13:24 -0500 Received: from panoramix.hexago.com ([209.71.226.3]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEWTD-0007TN-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:13:23 -0500 Received: from localhost (retro.viagenie.qc.ca [IPv6:3ffe:b00:c18:3::22]) (authenticated bits=0) by panoramix.hexago.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9SGD66r006992; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:13:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:12:54 -0500 From: Marc Blanchet To: Mark Davis , Mark Crispin , Abhijit Menon-Sen cc: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-ID: <280960000.1067357574@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> In-Reply-To: <00a001c39d65$b23177f0$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> <00a001c39d65$b23177f0$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.0b9 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit it appears to me that this thread is not very different from the idn considerations on usage of idn in the world. So what is really new in this discussion? Marc. -- Tuesday, October 28, 2003 07:10:59 -0800 Mark Davis wrote/a ecrit: >> > (I agree that it's currently nearly impossible to use computers if one >> > isn't familiar with the Latin script, of course.) >> >> Which probably makes the rest of this discussion academic, unless we're >> going to undertake solving *that* problem for Microsoft and the various >> UNIX/Linux vendors... > > It is currently impossible to use the Internet without knowing the Latin > script. However, the goal of most well-designed client software and > operating systems is to permit the user to work entirely within their > native language, with a fully localized system. This is reaching to India > and other countries; Microsoft has introduced fully localized versions of > Indic Windows just recently, and Linux vendors are hard at work to > produce fully localized versions of their software. > > Email and Web addresses are the big remaining holdouts for most people. > People should not be forced to use a script that they are unfamiliar > with, just to use email addresses and sites in their own countries. Even > if they are familiar with the Latin script, it is very often a very bad > match for their languages, making it very difficult to figure out how > native words would be spelled in it. > > Mark > ------------------------------------------ Marc Blanchet Hexago tel: +1-418-266-5533x225 ------------------------------------------ http://www.freenet6.net: IPv6 connectivity ------------------------------------------ From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 23:03:33 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA13467 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:03:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGsPT-0004kR-0a for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:03:15 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA443E7g018250 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:03:14 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGsPS-0004kH-GP for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:03:14 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA13463 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:03:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGsPO-0004zY-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:03:10 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGsPO-0004zV-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:03:10 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlp-0001AI-M6; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:17 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AEa7h-0002hb-KL for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:26 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA20495 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:12 -0500 (EST) From: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEa7e-0005iL-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:22 -0500 Received: from turing-police.cc.vt.edu ([128.173.14.107]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEa7d-0005iI-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:21 -0500 Received: from turing-police.cc.vt.edu (IDENT:valdis@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turing-police.cc.vt.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h9SK7J6P004972; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:19 -0500 Message-Id: <200310282007.h9SK7J6P004972@turing-police.cc.vt.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3 04/04/2003 with nmh-1.0.4+dev To: Mark Davis Cc: Mark Crispin , Keith Moore , dcrocker@brandenburg.com, paf@Cisco.COM, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, IMAP Extensions WG , ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@qualcomm.com, hardie@qualcomm.com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:39:32 PST." <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_-1503687178P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:19 -0500 Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , --==_Exmh_-1503687178P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:39:32 PST, Mark Davis said: > email addresses. Mr. Tanaka can have one with Latin letters and one wit= h > Japanese (e.g. =E3=83=A0=E3=83=AB=E3=82=AF@=E3=82=AB=E3=82=AF.=E3=83=AF= =E3=82=B7=E3=83=B3=E3=82=B0=E3=83=88=E3=83=B3.=E3=82=A8=E3=83=87=E3=82=A5= ). This gets interesting in the context of a "reply all". Apologies for breaking the UTF-8 in the quote, but it's illustrative - if= the breakage had been in the To/Cc lines, things would have broken even worse= unless whatever scheme we end up using is ASCII-transparent. --==_Exmh_-1503687178P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 iD8DBQE/nsx3cC3lWbTT17ARAlD1AKC74t7EwonvMVVb4YcOTjs6cE9mCwCfX9xR fx4FhsH1KZDlHM6R8Ip+I+A= =61XB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_-1503687178P-- From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 23:03:56 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA13491 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:03:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlv-0001DK-7Y for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:27 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA43MNqW004651 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:23 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlo-000177-6r for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:23 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11151 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlk-00042P-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:12 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlj-00041v-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:11 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlj-0000xy-KV; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:11 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AEOAa-0007it-1b for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:21:36 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA02629 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:21:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEOAW-0002h0-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:21:32 -0500 Received: from 216-43-25-66.ip.mcleodusa.net ([216.43.25.66] helo=episteme-software.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEOAV-0002dm-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:21:31 -0500 Received: from [216.43.25.67] (216.43.25.67) by episteme-software.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server X 3.2.3b1); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:21:01 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: resnick@resnick1.qualcomm.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <14814332829.20031027184226@brandenburg.com> References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com> <16285.48493.496028.516294@moriarty.gnomon.org.uk> <14814332829.20031027184226@brandenburg.com> X-Mailer: Eudora [Macintosh version 6.1a2] Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:20:58 -0600 To: dcrocker@brandenburg.com From: Pete Resnick Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Cc: Roy Badami , ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, , , , , Dave Crocker Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , On 10/27/03 at 6:42 PM -0800, Dave Crocker wrote: >RB> Even though, given IDNA now exists as a proposed standard, the main >RB> issues relate to the local part, the issue under discussion is that of >RB> internationalized mail addresses, not just internationalized >RB> local-parts. > >Really? What work needs to be done, except for local part? IDNA takes care >of the right-hand side. Please review John Klensin's draft before making these kinds of assumptions. >RB> Restricting the disucssion to local-parts runs the risk of excluding >RB> other potentially relevent issues. I agree. Limiting discussion at this point to local-part does not take into account some of the possibilities. pr -- Pete Resnick QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102 From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 23:04:26 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA13524 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:04:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrls-0001CK-HA for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:27 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA43MKVv004595 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:20 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlp-0001AF-IV for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:20 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11165 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlm-00042x-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:14 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrll-00042u-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:13 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlo-00017q-Hb; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:16 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AEWcG-0000bJ-5j for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:22:44 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04907 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:22:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEWcE-0007du-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:22:42 -0500 Received: from w1309.hostcentric.net ([66.40.78.254]) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEWcD-0007di-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:22:41 -0500 Received: (qmail 2789 invoked by alias); 28 Oct 2003 16:22:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO DAVIS1) (12.235.201.242) by 0 with SMTP; 28 Oct 2003 16:22:38 -0000 Message-ID: <00fb01c39d6f$b46cdd70$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Marc Blanchet" , "Mark Crispin" , "Abhijit Menon-Sen" Cc: , , , , , , , , References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> <00a001c39d65$b23177f0$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> <280960000.1067357574@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:22:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id LAA04911 Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wouldn't have thought so either, but at least some people questioned th= e need for non-Latin characters, and went so far as to exclude them from a propo= sed problem statement: > ... There is a growing need to use additional > characters, specifically Latin characters with diacriticals and non-Lat= in > characters, in email addresses to better serve the needs of the > multi-national Internet community... Mark __________________________________ http://www.macchiato.com =E2=96=BA =E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B7=E0=A5=8D=E0=A4=AF=E0=A4=BE=E0=A4=A6= =E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9A=E0=A5=8D=E0=A4=9B=E0=A5=87=E0=A4=A4=E0=A5=8D=E0=A4=AA=E0= =A4=B0=E0=A4=BE=E0=A4=9C=E0=A4=AF=E0=A4=AE=E0=A5=8D =E2=97=84 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Marc Blanchet" To: "Mark Davis" ; "Mark Crispin" ; "Abhijit Menon-Sen" Cc: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Tue, 2003 Oct 28 08:12 Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA= ) > > it appears to me that this thread is not very different from the idn > considerations on usage of idn in the world. So what is really new in t= his > discussion? > > Marc. > > -- Tuesday, October 28, 2003 07:10:59 -0800 Mark Davis > wrote/a ecrit: > > >> > (I agree that it's currently nearly impossible to use computers if= one > >> > isn't familiar with the Latin script, of course.) > >> > >> Which probably makes the rest of this discussion academic, unless we= 're > >> going to undertake solving *that* problem for Microsoft and the vari= ous > >> UNIX/Linux vendors... > > > > It is currently impossible to use the Internet without knowing the La= tin > > script. However, the goal of most well-designed client software and > > operating systems is to permit the user to work entirely within their > > native language, with a fully localized system. This is reaching to I= ndia > > and other countries; Microsoft has introduced fully localized version= s of > > Indic Windows just recently, and Linux vendors are hard at work to > > produce fully localized versions of their software. > > > > Email and Web addresses are the big remaining holdouts for most peopl= e. > > People should not be forced to use a script that they are unfamiliar > > with, just to use email addresses and sites in their own countries. E= ven > > if they are familiar with the Latin script, it is very often a very b= ad > > match for their languages, making it very difficult to figure out how > > native words would be spelled in it. > > > > Mark > > > > > > ------------------------------------------ > Marc Blanchet > Hexago > tel: +1-418-266-5533x225 > ------------------------------------------ > http://www.freenet6.net: IPv6 connectivity > ------------------------------------------ > From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 23:04:58 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA13552 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:04:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGsQq-0004my-Gn for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:04:40 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA444ebV018402 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:04:40 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGsQq-0004mj-B7 for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:04:40 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA13532 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:04:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGsQm-00050S-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:04:36 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGsQl-00050P-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:04:35 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlq-0001Ae-IN; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:18 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AEfKi-000790-Do for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:41:12 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA15662 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:41:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEfKf-0005dS-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:41:10 -0500 Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEfKf-0005dN-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:41:09 -0500 Received: from [63.202.92.152] (adsl-66-125-125-69.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [66.125.125.69]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9T1f6I8016895; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:41:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:41:55 -0800 To: Margaret.Wasserman@nokia.com, , , , , , , , , From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Location of the IMAA list (was: RE: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , At 11:54 AM -0500 10/28/03, Margaret.Wasserman@nokia.com wrote: >The BOF description lists imaa@imc.org as the >discussion list, but this discussion is being >cc:ed to ietf-imaa@imc.org. I'd suggest that you >move this discussion to whichever of those lists >is actually correct. It is ietf-imaa@imc.org, although because Patrik sent out the wrong address, I have made sure that both addresses work. An archive of the list, and links to the current versions of the drafts, can be found at . No more messages to all lists: that's what the IMAA list is for. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 23:07:33 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA13649 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:07:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlv-0001DJ-75 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:27 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA43MNqk004645 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:23 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlo-000171-5S for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:23 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11146 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlk-00042C-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:12 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlj-00041o-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:11 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlh-0000wH-M7; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:09 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AEJp4-0006Dh-33 for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:43:06 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA04679 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:42:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEJp1-0004Pz-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:43:03 -0500 Received: from joy.songbird.com ([208.184.79.7]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEJp0-0004Pp-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:43:02 -0500 Received: from bbprime (jay.songbird.com [208.184.79.253]) by joy.songbird.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9S2mVf18218; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:48:31 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:42:26 -0800 From: Dave Crocker X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.00.22) Reply-To: dcrocker@brandenburg.com Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <14814332829.20031027184226@brandenburg.com> To: Roy Badami CC: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, , , , Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: <16285.48493.496028.516294@moriarty.gnomon.org.uk> References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com> <16285.48493.496028.516294@moriarty.gnomon.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roy, >> Mail Internationalised Local-Part (MILP) RB> Even though, given IDNA now exists as a proposed standard, the main RB> issues relate to the local part, the issue under discussion is that of RB> internationalized mail addresses, not just internationalized RB> local-parts. Really? What work needs to be done, except for local part? IDNA takes care of the right-hand side. So what is there to do about "internationalized mail addresses" other than the local part? RB> Restricting the disucssion to local-parts runs the risk of excluding RB> other potentially relevent issues. For instance, one of the issues RB> that has been discussed on the IMAA list is whether full-width at RB> should be recognized in an internationalized mail address. full-width _where_? somewhere other than local part? if yes, then how can that be practical? if no, then the charter does not preclude their use. (if you think otherwise, please explain.) d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking Sunnyvale, CA USA From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 23:08:12 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA13706 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:08:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGsTw-00057A-U3 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:07:53 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA447qe6019589 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:07:52 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGsTt-00055T-EP for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:07:49 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA13670 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:07:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGsTp-00052v-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:07:45 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGsTo-00052s-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:07:44 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlp-0001AQ-UI; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:17 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AEd5D-0005sN-Ia for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:17:04 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA06318 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:16:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEd5A-0002NG-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:17:00 -0500 Received: from lakehearnglobal.coxinc.com ([206.157.224.254] helo=hatl0ms21.CORP.COX.COM) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEd59-0002Mb-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:17:00 -0500 Received: from CATL0MS81.corp.cox.com ([10.62.200.231]) by hatl0ms21.CORP.COX.COM with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:16:29 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by CATL0MS81.corp.cox.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:16:28 -0500 Received: from hatl0ms23.corp.cox.com ([10.64.200.56]) by catl0ms23.corp.cox.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:52:19 -0500 Received: from bastion2.cox.com ([10.225.2.51]) by hatl0ms23.corp.cox.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:37:56 -0500 Received: from asgard.ietf.org (asgard.ietf.org [132.151.6.40]) by bastion2.cox.com (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.6) with SMTP id h9SKbmv16600; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:37:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordomo by asgard.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.14) id 1AEZlm-0004nU-3B for ietf-list@asgard.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:44:46 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([10.27.2.28]) by asgard.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AEXlX-00008u-Kd for ietf@asgard.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:23 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA11141; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEXlV-0002Hm-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:22 -0500 Received: from ns.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=bs.jck.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEXlV-0002Hi-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:21 -0500 Received: from bs.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1AEXlK-000NIP-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:11 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:07 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Marc Blanchet , Mark Davis , Mark Crispin , Abhijit Menon-Sen cc: "ietf-imaa@imc.org" , "idn@ops.ietf.org" , "ietf-822@imc.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "ietf-pop3ext@imc.org" , "lemonade@ietf.org" , "discuss@apps.ietf.org" , "ietf-imapext@imc.org" , "ietf-smtp@imc.org" Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-ID: <12344770.1067344567@KLENSIN-TP> In-Reply-To: <280960000.1067357574@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> <00a001c39d65$b23177f0$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> <280960000.1067357574@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Oct 2003 20:37:57.0507 (UTC) FILETIME=[5EF05D30:01C39D93] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Tuesday, October 28, 2003 11:12 -0500 Marc Blanchet wrote: > it appears to me that this thread is not very different from > the idn considerations on usage of idn in the world. So what > is really new in this discussion? See the draft. Quick answer: DNS interfaces really exist at the protocol level, and a large part of the hypothesis behind IDNA was that it would be possible, after we had enough implementations, to prevent an end-user from ever seeing an encoded domain name. That story just doesn't hold for a special encoding-based (aka MUA-only) email local part implementation, and maybe not for email generally. For example, under current rules, an MTA is required to stuff the name it actually sees in HELO/EHLO and the MAIL command into various headers. If it is expected to notice that they have special encodings and decodes them, we've gone rather far into "the infrastructure is involved", even if the actual on-the-wire transport is not impacted. If it doesn't do that, the encodings --both the IDNA domain parts and the special mail encoding-- are going to be in the user's face, in the most literal sense of that term. The similarity of that situation to the early IDN discussions is the importance of the "what problem are you solving" question. And it is very clear to me that, for email addresses, the answer has got to "user sees their own characters in their email addresses and the email addresses of those whose languages they speak/ recognize. Users typically don't actually see envelopes. But seeing, e.g., different forms/codings of an address in the header "From:" field than appears in "Return-path:" or than appears in a signature line in the message body, is going to create real unhappiness. Similarly as has been pointed out in another context, seeing an address in different from when it appears in a header than when it (and that header) are encapsulated in a message/?? body part is just not going to amuse any user to whom we've said "ok, now you have i18n strings, enjoy your new found local language capabilities". And I guess that tells you what I think the problem is that we need to solve. YMMD. john From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 23:10:13 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11214 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrls-0001BK-40 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:27 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA43MJga004514 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:19 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrln-00016P-Qi for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:19 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11142 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlk-00042E-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:12 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlj-00041r-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:11 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrli-0000xK-NM; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:10 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AELNe-0004Zw-Vn for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:22:55 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA07110 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:22:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AELNc-0005QR-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:22:52 -0500 Received: from miranda.org ([209.58.150.153] ident=qmailr) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AELNc-0005QK-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:22:52 -0500 Received: (qmail 21999 invoked from network); 28 Oct 2003 04:22:45 -0000 Received: from miranda.org (HELO lustre.dyn.wiw.org) (ams@209.58.150.153) by miranda.org with SMTP; 28 Oct 2003 04:22:45 -0000 Received: from ams by lustre.dyn.wiw.org with local (Exim 4.20) id 1AELNT-0000RV-Fn; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:52:43 +0530 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:52:43 +0530 From: Abhijit Menon-Sen To: Mark Crispin Cc: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-ID: <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , At 2003-10-27 19:37:37 -0800, MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU wrote: > > I do not believe many individuals (other than primary school children) are > literate in their native language but are completely illiterate in Latin > script. This does not mean "being able to read or write the English > language"; rather, this simply means knowing the Latin script alphabet. Mark, The number of people in India who can read and write only their native language, but have no usable knowledge of Latin script, is much larger than the tiny number who are familiar with both. I'm told that this is true for many native speakers of Chinese and Arabic as well. The use of local scripts is much more than just a "preference" for the numerous localisation efforts in India which focus on making computing more accessible to poor farmers and people in villages. (I agree that it's currently nearly impossible to use computers if one isn't familiar with the Latin script, of course.) -- ams From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 23:10:14 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11217 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrls-0001BM-4g for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:27 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA43MJqp004516 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:19 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlo-00016z-1v for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:19 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11148 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlk-00042K-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:12 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlj-00041t-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:11 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlj-0000xe-6p; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:11 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AELgU-0005zf-4w for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:42:22 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA09025 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:42:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AELgR-00069L-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:42:19 -0500 Received: from mxout1.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.32.134]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AELgR-00069G-00; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:42:19 -0500 Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.32.139]) by mxout1.cac.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with ESMTP id h9S4gHaZ024278; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:42:17 -0800 Received: from Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu [128.95.135.58]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with ESMTP id h9S4gHx0026302 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:42:17 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:42:19 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) From: Mark Crispin To: Abhijit Menon-Sen cc: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> Message-ID: References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , On Tue, 28 Oct 2003, Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote: > The number of people in India who can read and write only their native > language, but have no usable knowledge of Latin script, is much larger > than the tiny number who are familiar with both. I'm told that this is > true for many native speakers of Chinese and Arabic as well. I defer to your superior knowledge about India. I do not believe that this is true for Chinese. AFAIK, Chinese primary school kids use Latin script with hanyu-pinyin as a stopgap prior to their mastery of Han script (which takes many years). > The use of local scripts is much more than just a "preference" for the > numerous localisation efforts in India which focus on making computing > more accessible to poor farmers and people in villages. A poor farmer or villager in China is more likely to be totally illiterate than to be literate in Han script but unable to recognize Latin script. Note that when I say "recognize Latin script", I mean the ability to determine that "dog" is a three-letter word that has the letters "d", "o", and "g", each of which the individual recognizes and can name. This does not include the ability to recognize that this refers to a domesticated canine. > (I agree that it's currently nearly impossible to use computers if one > isn't familiar with the Latin script, of course.) Which probably makes the rest of this discussion academic, unless we're going to undertake solving *that* problem for Microsoft and the various UNIX/Linux vendors... -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 23:12:04 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA13907 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:12:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGsXi-0005L4-6a for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:11:46 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA44BkK5020520 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:11:46 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlt-0001Cb-IO for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:24 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11177 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlq-00043K-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:18 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlq-000431-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:18 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlp-00019U-Ao; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:17 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AEXlX-0008SN-U6 for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:24 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA11143 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEXlW-0002Hp-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:22 -0500 Received: from ns.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=bs.jck.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEXlV-0002Hj-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:21 -0500 Received: from bs.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1AEXlK-000NIP-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:11 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:07 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Marc Blanchet , Mark Davis , Mark Crispin , Abhijit Menon-Sen cc: "ietf-imaa@imc.org" , "idn@ops.ietf.org" , "ietf-822@imc.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "ietf-pop3ext@imc.org" , "lemonade@ietf.org" , "discuss@apps.ietf.org" , "ietf-imapext@imc.org" , "ietf-smtp@imc.org" Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-ID: <12344770.1067344567@KLENSIN-TP> In-Reply-To: <280960000.1067357574@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> <00a001c39d65$b23177f0$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> <280960000.1067357574@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Tuesday, October 28, 2003 11:12 -0500 Marc Blanchet wrote: > it appears to me that this thread is not very different from > the idn considerations on usage of idn in the world. So what > is really new in this discussion? See the draft. Quick answer: DNS interfaces really exist at the protocol level, and a large part of the hypothesis behind IDNA was that it would be possible, after we had enough implementations, to prevent an end-user from ever seeing an encoded domain name. That story just doesn't hold for a special encoding-based (aka MUA-only) email local part implementation, and maybe not for email generally. For example, under current rules, an MTA is required to stuff the name it actually sees in HELO/EHLO and the MAIL command into various headers. If it is expected to notice that they have special encodings and decodes them, we've gone rather far into "the infrastructure is involved", even if the actual on-the-wire transport is not impacted. If it doesn't do that, the encodings --both the IDNA domain parts and the special mail encoding-- are going to be in the user's face, in the most literal sense of that term. The similarity of that situation to the early IDN discussions is the importance of the "what problem are you solving" question. And it is very clear to me that, for email addresses, the answer has got to "user sees their own characters in their email addresses and the email addresses of those whose languages they speak/ recognize. Users typically don't actually see envelopes. But seeing, e.g., different forms/codings of an address in the header "From:" field than appears in "Return-path:" or than appears in a signature line in the message body, is going to create real unhappiness. Similarly as has been pointed out in another context, seeing an address in different from when it appears in a header than when it (and that header) are encapsulated in a message/?? body part is just not going to amuse any user to whom we've said "ok, now you have i18n strings, enjoy your new found local language capabilities". And I guess that tells you what I think the problem is that we need to solve. YMMD. john From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 3 23:15:13 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11661 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:28:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrs0-0002Vs-80 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:28:40 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA43Se6I009652 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:28:40 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrlx-0001DT-5t for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:25 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11184 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:22:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlt-00043X-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:21 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AGrlt-00041x-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:21 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGrll-0000yx-0M; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 22:22:13 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AEQKx-0004HO-EG for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 04:40:27 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA12048 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 04:40:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEQKu-0006Ow-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 04:40:24 -0500 Received: from joy.songbird.com ([208.184.79.7]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEQKt-0006Ok-01 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 04:40:23 -0500 Received: from bbprime (jay.songbird.com [208.184.79.253]) by joy.songbird.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9S9jrf12762; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:45:54 -0800 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:13:50 -0800 From: Dave Crocker X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.00.22) Reply-To: dcrocker@brandenburg.com Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <2337816887.20031028011350@brandenburg.com> To: Pete Resnick CC: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, , , , , Dave Crocker Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com> <16285.48493.496028.516294@moriarty.gnomon.org.uk> <14814332829.20031027184226@brandenburg.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pete, >>RB> Restricting the disucssion to local-parts runs the risk of excluding >>RB> other potentially relevent issues. PR> I agree. Limiting discussion at this point to local-part does not PR> take into account some of the possibilities. That was exactly the intent of the text. We have already seen how nicely the text served to bring into pretty stark relief one bit of expectation from one of the proposals. It is only fitting to have it serve the same purpose for another one. IETF BOF time is pretty lousy for an open-ended chat. Having specifications to chat about is only marginally better than not having them. What makes the real difference is having serious focus to the meeting. If we go into this meeting without even having a clear sense of the scope of the problem to be tackled, then the chance of having a productive meeting is pretty small. At the moment, it appears that the focus of the meeting is likely to be: Shall we break existing Internet mail or shall we lay an enhancement on top of it that preserves the installed base. (I'm sure that everyone else who was present at the pre-MIME/ESMTP discussions is really looking forward to repeating the experience.) d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking Sunnyvale, CA USA From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Nov 15 15:56:25 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA19670 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:56:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AL7Sh-0002hT-DB for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:56:07 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hAFKu7cX010377 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:56:07 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AL7Sh-0002hI-1R for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:56:07 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA19665 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:55:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AL7Sf-0005XK-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:56:05 -0500 Received: from [132.151.1.19] (helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AL7Se-0005XG-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:56:04 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AL7Sb-0002gU-N4; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:56:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AJaLK-0007Mr-W6 for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:22:11 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA05287 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:21:57 -0500 (EST) From: hardie@qualcomm.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AJaLI-0004VD-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:22:08 -0500 Received: from numenor.qualcomm.com ([129.46.51.58]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AJaLH-0004V5-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:22:07 -0500 Received: from neophyte.qualcomm.com (neophyte.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.149]) by numenor.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id hABFM4VY026123 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:22:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [130.129.132.195] (vpn-10-50-0-96.qualcomm.com [10.50.0.96]) by neophyte.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id hABFLtU2020940 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:22:03 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: hardie@mage.qualcomm.com Message-Id: Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 09:19:50 -0600 To: discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: Further discussion of the HIP/APPs interaction Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , As mentioned during the APPs open meeting, there are a number of issues on the potential interaction between HIP and applications that may need further discussion. Margaret Wasserman and I are putting together a discussion on that for this Wednesday, in the 15:30 slot. If you would like to join us, please send me or Margaret note, so we can arrange the room correctly. thanks, Ted Hardie From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 24 19:29:43 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA13380 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:29:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AOR55-0006aZ-1a for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:29:28 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hAP0TRCk025327 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:29:27 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AOR54-0006aF-8K for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:29:26 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA13364 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:29:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AOR52-0001gd-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:29:24 -0500 Received: from [132.151.1.19] (helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AOR52-0001gU-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:29:24 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AOR4e-0006WN-Ob; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:29:00 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AMYt5-00052N-1Y for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:25:19 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA09529 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:25:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AMYt3-0001TA-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:25:17 -0500 Received: from mailhost.jlc.net ([199.201.159.9]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AMYt2-0001T7-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:25:16 -0500 Received: by mailhost.jlc.net (Postfix, from userid 104) id 7E0F1E0654; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:25:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:25:15 -0500 From: John Leslie To: discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: COMPLETED DRAFT - Notes on APPAREA Open Meeting Message-ID: <20031119202515.GA59913@verdi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , The Applications Area Open Meeting of the 58th IETF was held the morning of November 10th, 2003, in Salon F, with about 95 persons present. Marshall Rose volunteered to be Jabber Scribe, and John Leslie volunteered to take minutes. Ted Hardie called the meeting to order at 9:01. Ted announced that Ned Freed is much recovered from surgeries, but still not able to travel. He can be reached by email. Under Agenda-bashing, Ted explained the conflict with HIPBOF, scheduled for this same time period. Ted suggested we schedule a second meeting Wednesday afternoon if it turns out we need interaction between the HIPBOF people and the rest of us. Chris Newman presented an extension to the IMAP protocol (URLAUTH) for "Pawn Ticket" authorization without authentication. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-crispin-imap-urlauth-04.txt In the interests of scalability, it is assumed that the submit function may be on a separate machine, which will access the message store to access authorized pieces for forwarding. This will prove helpful for bandwidth-limited clients such as cell phones. In the question period, Bob Morgan commented on the interest in attribute-based authentication. Hilary Orman asked whether possible backlash from misunderstandings about the limited security was considered. For example, responses at an Internet Cafe may be cached. Chris responded that pawn tickets can be time-limited. Lisa Dusseault mentioned experience with WEBDAV. Dave Crocker opined that this provides better security through fine-grained access control. Bob Morgan talked about problems with everyone sticking stuff at the end of URLs. It would be good to standardize this, but beware of reusing the existing auth slot. Ted Hardie asked if we should start a mailing-list to discuss this. There was interest in that. Stephen Legg presented work on XML Enabled Directories: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-legg-xed-roadmap-01.txt Prior to LDAP, many programs duplicated application data. LDAP designed a shared repository. Since LDAP, we have a proliferation of client- server applications with uncoordinated definitions of complex data. XED seeks to encourage the use of XML schema for user-level definition of complex data, enabling searching across client-server applications. During the question period, several people asked about data transport. Stephen explained problems with prior transport mechanisms, but I couldn't quite follow what he's proposing. Chris Newman asked about the learning curve: are we shuffling together too many things? Stephen agreed you won't learn it "in a day", but feels that the design will ease implementation. Ted Hardie cut off further questions at 10:14 due to time constraints. Leslie Daigle presented work on S-NAPTR: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-daigle-napstr-03.txt This deals with server location and discovery (not transport). Think of this as a layer above SRV resource records. The DDDS application defined here is more straightforward than unrestricted use of NAPTR records. (The text on some example slides was too small for the back of the room, but nobody chose to move forward.) The presentation slides are at: http://www.ecotroph.net/~anewton/s-naptr-openapps.ppt During the question period, Dave Crocker asked how much real use NAPTR is getting. Leslie pointed out ENUM and IRIS in the CRISP working group. Dave also asked why DNS should support this sort of search. Leslie answered it enables one domain's administrator to point to service elsewhere without worrying about the internal details of how that service is provided. Chris Newman pointed out that SRV has seen very slow deployment. Mark Andrews questioned whether this would exceed DNS limits. Leslie agreed it could blow the UDP limits, depending on how the zone is set up. Ted Hardie cut off further questions at 10:40 due to time constraints. Andrew McGregor introduced the work of the Host Identification Protocol BOF, running concurrently with this session. This work has been discussed at several prior IETFs, with no Working Group formed. The base protocol is more-or-less ready. The HIP protocol integrates security, mobility, and multi-homing, inserting a new layer between IP and transport, using a cryptographic Host Identifier. There are four Internet Drafts, and five public implementations, using four different operating systems. During the question period, Paul Hoffman asked why this is ESP-specific. Andrew answered that you can bypass encryption. Dave Crocker stated he has seen six or eight dramatically different proposals; and that we need feedback from applications to the transport groups. Ted Hardie asked why this is a cryptographic namespace. Answer, to reduce DoS attacks. Ted also noted that "puzzles" are costly. Andrew noted that puzzle hardness can start near zero and double until the DoS disappears. Chris Newman begged that HIP limit itself to one API. Ted Hardie promised to try to set up further discussion during the 3:30-5:30 time slot on Wednesday. Open Mike started at 11:16. Bob Morgan noted that SIMPLE is working on XCAP. Someone announced plans to attempt a bar-BOF on XED Wednesday or Thursday. The meeting was closed at 11:24. -- John Leslie From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 24 19:29:43 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA13381 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:29:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AOR55-0006au-Dq for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:29:28 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hAP0TRZd025342 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:29:27 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AOR54-0006aG-IO for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:29:27 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA13367 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:29:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AOR52-0001ge-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:29:24 -0500 Received: from [132.151.1.19] (helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AOR52-0001gV-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:29:24 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AOR4e-0006WV-Vn; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:29:00 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AMbuL-0006au-1a for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:38:49 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA23261 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:38:33 -0500 (EST) From: hardie@qualcomm.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AMbuH-0006Jb-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:38:45 -0500 Received: from ithilien.qualcomm.com ([129.46.51.59]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AMbuG-0006JR-00; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:38:45 -0500 Received: from sabrina.qualcomm.com (sabrina.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.150]) by ithilien.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id hAJNcg4t010150; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:38:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.46.227.161] (carbuncle.qualcomm.com [129.46.227.161]) by sabrina.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id hAJNce0O001684; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:38:41 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: hardie@mage.qualcomm.com Message-Id: Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:38:40 -0800 To: ietf@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: New list to discuss interaction of APPs and proposed Lower Layer Identifiers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Please see http://www.imc.org/ietf-aulli/index.html for info on joining; aulli will discuss how proposals like HIP, MAST, NoID, et al. will affect the Applications layer and end users. Ted Hardie From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Nov 24 19:46:56 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA14018 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:46:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AORLj-00088a-Bw for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:46:39 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hAP0kdV7031276 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:46:39 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AORLi-00088N-Sv for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:46:39 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA13965 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:46:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AORLh-0001vj-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:46:37 -0500 Received: from manatick.foretec.com ([4.17.168.5] helo=manatick) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AORKe-0001u3-02 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:45:32 -0500 Received: from [132.151.6.22] (helo=optimus.ietf.org) by manatick with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AOR4o-00056b-70 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:29:10 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AOR4f-0006Wd-7f; Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:29:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AMr61-0002pi-AC for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:51:53 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA10146 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:51:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AMr5w-0004wk-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:51:48 -0500 Received: from igloo.df.lth.se ([194.47.250.47] ident=daemon) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AMr5w-0004wh-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:51:48 -0500 Received: from localhost (triad@localhost) by igloo.df.lth.se (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id hAKFpjg28724 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 16:51:45 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 16:51:45 +0100 (MET) From: Linus Walleij To: discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: On the SHF Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , I would like to bring the I-D on the "Standard Hex Format" to the attention of the Application Area. We've already had a nice little discussion about the draft in a cross-disciplinary manner at the IETF-types mailing list (of all places). http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-strombergson-shf-00.txt Please have a look at it and share your thoughts. If questions are raised that have already been discussed on the types list, I will try to recap the issues discussed for you. Yours, Linus Walleij From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Nov 25 00:52:23 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA21857 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:52:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AOW7M-0003Q6-T6 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:52:09 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hAP5q8v1013142 for discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:52:08 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AOW7M-0003Ps-Lm for discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:52:08 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA21853 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:51:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AOW7J-0005xG-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:52:05 -0500 Received: from [132.151.1.19] (helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AOW7J-0005xD-00 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:52:05 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AOW7E-0003PA-KD; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:52:00 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AOW78-0003Os-5B for discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:51:54 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA21850 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:51:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AOW75-0005xA-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:51:51 -0500 Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com ([144.254.74.5]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AOW74-0005wy-00 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:51:51 -0500 Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Nov 2003 06:48:42 +0100 Received: from XBE-AMS-302.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id hAP5p8xW001174 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 06:51:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from xfe-ams-301.cisco.com ([144.254.75.88]) by XBE-AMS-302.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Tue, 25 Nov 2003 06:46:47 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-301.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Tue, 25 Nov 2003 06:51:18 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <6388D079-1F0B-11D8-A94E-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-16--909518575" To: discuss@apps.ietf.org From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= Subject: Test, please ignore Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:51:18 +0200 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.0 (v30, 10.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Nov 2003 05:51:19.0251 (UTC) FILETIME=[25DFB230:01C3B318] Sender: discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , --Apple-Mail-16--909518575 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is to check how this list work. paf --Apple-Mail-16--909518575 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (Darwin) iD8DBQE/wu3WvHlR2X0luNwRAkz2AKCNEkjITA8QRZIAXIizoSsDR1FegACgrXBx 6HWUQpkvqOMG0tFcDyGvMHE= =EIZg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-16--909518575--