From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Tue Mar 1 11:34:05 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA13911 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:34:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D6AKs-0007tI-8H for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2005 11:35:09 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D6AJd-0006z2-3J; Tue, 01 Mar 2005 11:33:45 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D5ndo-0007MU-8N for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:21:04 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA05493 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:21:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=bs.jck.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D5neZ-0002Dv-4U for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:21:52 -0500 Received: from [209.187.148.215] (helo=scan.jck.com) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1D5ndh-000OIk-6E; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:20:57 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:20:57 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: william_mcdonald@cox.net, discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: Re: Recall email protocol Message-ID: <55614AE419EC833F331697AA@scan.jck.com> In-Reply-To: <000201c51d5b$0a4af080$ab78fb18@BillsLaptop> References: <000201c51d5b$0a4af080$ab78fb18@BillsLaptop> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 11:33:43 -0500 X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, Briefly, it hasn't been done because, in the general case, it can't be done. Your observation about the security issues is actually the tip of an iceberg: a mail message passes through a whole series of systems and, at least absent strong end-to-end message authentication that all relevant receivers are willing to exercise and honor, there is no good reason why a receiving system should honor your claim to be authorized to get it to cancel a message. That isn't the only problem (or set of problems), but it is sufficient. A postal analogy might be applicable here. If you have a change of heart after you have dropped a letter to me in the mailbox, you might be able to call me and persuade me to discard the message unopened, or you might try the same thing with a letter with higher-priority for transport and delivery, but you cannot "recall" the letter. In the US, most attempts to do so are seriously illegal. One could design an "if you haven't read this already, please don't" protocol, of course. But we have one of those: it is just a message that says "if you haven't read that other message already, please disregard or discard it". No guarantees that the recipient will pay any attention, but so it goes. john --On Sunday, 27 February, 2005 23:02 -0700 William McDonald wrote: > I'd like to find out if this idea has already been done, or is > in the works. > > > > > I was interested in finding out if there is a standard that > addresses 'recalling of e-mail message'. I know that Outlook > does this, but I didn't know if it was an email standard. I > didn't find anything initially in my RFC search. > > > > Aside from the obvious use case where a person simply goofs in > the information or sender, OR worse, sends a gossip email > about his boss to his boss by mistake and wants it back, there > is another more practical application I can think of: virus > damage control cleanup engines which reverse the virus spam > that generated from your e-mail account by recalling all the > bogus emails; a self correcting mechanism. However, there are > security issues with making sure a virus doesn't recall a > message you are relying on having been sent and received. > > > > Anyway, what do you think? > > > > > > TIA, > > > > --Bill McDonald > > *********************************** > > * Sr. Application Engineer > > * PO Box 11345 > > * Chandler, AZ 85248-0006 > > * 480-629-8383 > > *********************************** > > > From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Wed Mar 2 08:36:37 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA10650 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:36:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D6U2v-0000bn-4e for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Mar 2005 08:37:51 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D6U1B-0008Ix-Cz; Wed, 02 Mar 2005 08:36:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D6Ene-0003aI-F2 for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2005 16:21:02 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA11938 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:21:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from zcars04f.nortelnetworks.com ([47.129.242.57]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D6Eof-0006I8-IA for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2005 16:22:05 -0500 Received: from zrtpd0j7.us.nortel.com (zrtpd0j7.us.nortel.com [47.140.203.25]) by zcars04f.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id j21LKlD07727; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:20:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by zrtpd0j7.us.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <1J5BK3WK>; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:20:47 -0500 Message-ID: <085091CB2CA14E4B8B163FFC37C84E9D03677EE1@zcarhxm0.corp.nortel.com> From: "Glenn Parsons" To: "'william_mcdonald@cox.net'" Subject: RE: Recall email protocol Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:20:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C51EA4.82615A64" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cdb443e3957ca9b4c5b55e78cfcf4b26 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 08:36:00 -0500 Cc: "'discuss@apps.ietf.org'" X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 140baa79ca42e6b0e2b4504291346186 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C51EA4.82615A64 Content-Type: text/plain The concept has been mentioned in the LEMONADE WG. It is not specifically in charter, but was discussed as part of the future delivery work item. Cheers, Glenn. -----Original Message----- From: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org [mailto:discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org] On Behalf Of William McDonald Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 1:02 AM To: discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: Recall email protocol I'd like to find out if this idea has already been done, or is in the works. I was interested in finding out if there is a standard that addresses 'recalling of e-mail message'. I know that Outlook does this, but I didn't know if it was an email standard. I didn't find anything initially in my RFC search. Aside from the obvious use case where a person simply goofs in the information or sender, OR worse, sends a gossip email about his boss to his boss by mistake and wants it back, there is another more practical application I can think of: virus damage control cleanup engines which reverse the virus spam that generated from your e-mail account by recalling all the bogus emails; a self correcting mechanism. However, there are security issues with making sure a virus doesn't recall a message you are relying on having been sent and received. Anyway, what do you think? TIA, --Bill McDonald *********************************** * Sr. Application Engineer * PO Box 11345 * Chandler, AZ 85248-0006 * 480-629-8383 *********************************** ------_=_NextPart_001_01C51EA4.82615A64 Content-Type: text/html Message
The concept has been mentioned in the LEMONADE WG.
 
It is not specifically in charter, but was discussed as part of the future delivery work item.
 
Cheers,
Glenn.
-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org [mailto:discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org] On Behalf Of William McDonald
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 1:02 AM
To: discuss@apps.ietf.org
Subject: Recall email protocol

I'd like to find out if this idea has already been done, or is in the works. 

 

I was interested in finding out if there is a standard that addresses 'recalling of e-mail message'.  I know that Outlook does this, but I didn't know if it was an email standard.  I didn't find anything initially in my RFC search.

 

Aside from the obvious use case where a person simply goofs in the information or sender, OR worse, sends a gossip email about his boss to his boss by mistake and wants it back, there is another more practical application I can think of:  virus damage control cleanup engines which reverse the virus spam that generated from your e-mail account by recalling all the bogus emails; a self correcting mechanism.  However, there are security issues with making sure a virus doesn't recall a message you are relying on having been sent and received.

 

Anyway, what do you think?

 

 

TIA,

 

--Bill McDonald

***********************************

*  Sr. Application Engineer

*  PO Box 11345

*  Chandler, AZ 85248-0006

*  480-629-8383

***********************************

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C51EA4.82615A64-- From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Fri Mar 4 01:20:43 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA02879 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 01:20:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D76CX-0006Wd-S3 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 01:22:18 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D768h-0001iR-8m; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 01:18:19 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D768e-0001i9-UW for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 01:18:17 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA02285 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 01:18:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop-a065d01.pas.sa.earthlink.net ([207.217.121.248]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D76AA-0006LL-Ov for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 01:19:51 -0500 Received: from user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com ([66.149.133.182] helo=[192.168.0.4]) by pop-a065d01.pas.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1D768b-0001aO-00; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:18:13 -0800 In-Reply-To: <001b01c5207d$bdf666d0$ab78fb18@BillsLaptop> References: <001b01c5207d$bdf666d0$ab78fb18@BillsLaptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <68b0c0f7523cd493b9163d8cb633f256@cs.utk.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Keith Moore Subject: Re: Recall email protocol Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 01:17:52 -0500 To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org, "'Glenn Parsons'" , "'Larry Masinter'" X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Now, instead of sending e-mail messages all over the place, we only > send > links. it's already been defined. read the MIME spec and look at message/external-body then imagine what it would be like if everyone sent mail that way. right now, mail is pretty robust across server and link failures. the mail might be delayed, but it will get there when the server and/or link comes back up. it's possible to arrange multiple paths by which mail can get to its destination. if all mail were links, the mail would not get downloaded until the recipient actually read his mail. this would suck if the originator's server or recipient's client were on a slow link, if the server were down, if the net were congested. even on fast links, it would add an annoying delay every time a message was opened. it would make very large attachments infeasible even if there were good connectivity between the recipient and his message store. the result would be that mail would be slower and less reliable than it is now, because it would depend not only on the forward path working (as it does now) but also on the path back to the originator's server working. pre-fetching would be possible, but this would have another side effect - the sender would think the recipient had read his mail, even if the recipient hadn't decided to read that message yet. it wouldn't help spam filtering much because most spam filtering actually needs to see the content of the message, and you can't do that without downloading it. it would decrease the load on MTAs due to handling spam and shift that load to the sender's server (which seems appropriate) but wouldn't reduce the amount of spam in a recipient's inbox by a significant amount. reading mail would be a lot like it is now, except that you'd have to wait longer for each message, and spam wouldn't be pre-filtered. as for holding spammers accountable - spammers are already routinely sending mail via compromised systems and other people's accounts. how would this cause them to stop doing so? From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Fri Mar 4 10:33:32 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA28931 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:33:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D7Epb-0005Pp-Um for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:35:13 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D7EmT-0003DZ-GR; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:31:57 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D7EmR-0003DP-LF for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:31:56 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA28795 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:31:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=bs.jck.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D7Enz-0005Mn-A3 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:33:34 -0500 Received: from [209.187.148.215] (helo=scan.jck.com) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1D7Em2-0005fz-G8; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:31:30 -0500 Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:31:30 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Keith Moore , william_mcdonald@cox.net Subject: Re: Recall email protocol Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <68b0c0f7523cd493b9163d8cb633f256@cs.utk.edu> References: <001b01c5207d$bdf666d0$ab78fb18@BillsLaptop> <68b0c0f7523cd493b9163d8cb633f256@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org, "'Glenn Parsons'" , "'Larry Masinter'" X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Friday, 04 March, 2005 01:17 -0500 Keith Moore wrote: >> Now, instead of sending e-mail messages all over the place, >> we only send >> links. > > it's already been defined. read the MIME spec and look at > message/external-body > > then imagine what it would be like if everyone sent mail that > way. > > right now, mail is pretty robust across server and link > failures. the mail might be delayed, but it will get there > when the server and/or link comes back up. it's possible to > arrange multiple paths by which mail can get to its > destination. >... Of course, none of the above has prevented a few companies from deciding that the "send a link" model has commercial possibilities for distribution/repository server operators. "You send me the real content and a few dollars a megabyte and I'll be sure the content is easily obtained when someone shows up with a link or password" may actually be a good business model for some circumstances. It does add a few security twists to the system, but, well... john From fu@accesswave.com Fri Mar 4 11:08:05 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA01897 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:08:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D7FN4-0006DO-J8 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 11:09:47 -0500 Received: from [203.234.244.160] (helo=203.234.244.160) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1D7FLM-0006Cm-Nr for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 11:08:02 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Paul A. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C51E97.4229B925-- From Kachmaryk@curio-city.com Sun Mar 6 10:48:39 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA20300; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:48:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from 212.199.15.155.static.012.net.il ([212.199.15.155] helo=burgerking.de) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D7y1W-0005YY-Fb; Sun, 06 Mar 2005 10:50:46 -0500 From: "Srivastava Iti" To: "Hermanski Lindsey" Subject: Re[5]: discussion about her tablets Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 09:51:52 -0300 Message-ID: <3d5101c52264$155d777f$9b0fc7d4@burgerking.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0123_456789AB.CDEF0123" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Score: 7.1 (+++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 562cdc9baa87554b29d950396a30cf75 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0123_456789AB.CDEF0123 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con ------=_NextPart_000_0123_456789AB.CDEF0123 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
     
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Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. ------=_NextPart_000_0123_456789AB.CDEF0123-- From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Mon Mar 7 11:53:13 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA07377 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:53:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8LW1-0008Ua-Pl for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 11:55:33 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8LPu-0001d1-Rw; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 11:49:14 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8LPt-0001cu-WF for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 11:49:14 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA06910 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:49:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from warlock.qualcomm.com ([129.46.50.49]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8LS3-0008NO-VV for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 11:51:31 -0500 Received: from [10.84.119.90] (vpn-10-50-0-114.qualcomm.com [10.50.0.114]) by warlock.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id j27Gmi9f008052; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 08:48:45 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X v7.0a X-message-flag: Using Outlook? Upgrade to Eudora: Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 08:48:14 -0800 To: old-standards@alvestrand.no From: Randall Gellens Subject: ETRN Should be Advanced, Not Historic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org, drums@cs.utk.edu X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 At 11:49 AM +0100 12/6/04, Eliot Lear wrote: > RFC1985 SMTP Service Extension for Remote Message Queue Starting > (ETRN) ETRN is widely implemented and generally useful. I think it should be advanced, not moved to historic. The problem, of course, is finding someone to do the grunge work to make this happen. If the author can't be convinced to do so, I might give it a shot. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly-selected tag: --------------- Demagogue: One who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots. --H.L. Mencken From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Mon Mar 7 12:22:50 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA10935 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:22:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8Lye-0000rw-76 for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 12:25:11 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8LvU-0006wG-GN; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 12:21:52 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D8LvS-0006w6-I9 for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 12:21:50 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA10815 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:21:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es ([213.172.48.142] helo=consulintel.es) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D8Lxe-0000oT-Nq for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 12:24:08 -0500 Received: from [130.129.133.151] ([130.129.133.151]) by consulintel.es (consulintel.es [127.0.0.1]) (MDaemon.PRO.v7.2.3.R) with ESMTP id md50000833184.msg for ; Mon, 07 Mar 2005 18:23:33 +0100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.1.0.040913 Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 11:17:36 -0600 Subject: Re:ETRN Should be Advanced, Not Historic From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: "discuss@apps.ietf.org" , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-MDRemoteIP: 130.129.133.151 X-Return-Path: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64 (2004-01-11) on mail.consulintel.es X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=no version=2.64 X-Spam-Processed: consulintel.es, Mon, 07 Mar 2005 18:23:36 +0100 X-MDAV-Processed: consulintel.es, Mon, 07 Mar 2005 18:23:37 +0100 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: drums@cs.utk.edu X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Agree. Regards, Jordi > De: Randall Gellens > Responder a: > Fecha: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 08:48:14 -0800 > Para: > CC: "discuss@apps.ietf.org" , > Asunto: ETRN Should be Advanced, Not Historic > > At 11:49 AM +0100 12/6/04, Eliot Lear wrote: >> RFC1985 SMTP Service Extension for Remote Message Queue Starting >> (ETRN) > > ETRN is widely implemented and generally useful. I think it should > be advanced, not moved to historic. The problem, of course, is > finding someone to do the grunge work to make this happen. > > If the author can't be convinced to do so, I might give it a shot. > -- > Randall Gellens > Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only > -------------- Randomly-selected tag: --------------- > Demagogue: One who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he > knows to be idiots. --H.L. Mencken > ************************************ Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit Call for Papers and information available at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. 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Her arms, the flash and glint Ye can tell me where she is, that I know. And ye can make her Stires testified that he recalled Cowperwood's saying that he had Cowperwood made way for Aileen, who swept by, furious at the only for the weight and effect his presence would have. He calle These troubles are never unraveled by tears. You must do a likely to need to be retired for cause. Mr. Pinkerton is a good Have a nice day. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C523D3.422DD179 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
     
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    ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con ------=_NextPart_000_89AB_CDEF0123.456789AB-- From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Wed Mar 9 12:45:00 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA00713 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:45:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D95He-0006Bx-Lh for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 12:47:47 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D95E9-0004eC-Dv; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 12:44:09 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D95E8-0004e3-IA for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 12:44:08 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA00604 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:44:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.jlc.net ([199.201.159.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D95Gh-0006An-9n for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 12:46:50 -0500 Received: by mailhost.jlc.net (Postfix, from userid 104) id E4158E059E; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:43:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:43:58 -0500 From: John Leslie To: discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: APPAREA Meeting Meeting Minutes Message-ID: <20050309174358.GC4386@verdi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a92270ba83d7ead10c5001bb42ec3221 X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bf422c85703d3d847fb014987125ac48 --nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Here's my draft of minutes for the Monday morning meeting. Corrections are welcome (especially supplying the name of the Jabber Scribe). Private email preferred: I'll summarize to the list. -- John Leslie --nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=IETF62apparea The APPAREA meeting on March 7 2005 was called to order at 9:02 am local time, after agreed to act as Jabber Scribe and John Leslie agreed to act as Scribe, and was chaired by Scott Hollenbeck. Scott presented the agenda for bashing, and no changes were suggested. Scott announced the closing of two working groups which had completed their work -- FAX and TRADE -- and the formation of two new groups -- SIEVE and LTRU. The charter has been updated for OPES. Scott gave an update of the status of ATOMPUB. Two basic documents have been written: one for format and the other for protocol. Please check for overlap with other groups' work before last-call. The format document is pretty much finished, though there are still some details about what is to be core functions vs. extensions. The protocol document is somewhat behind schedule. Two BOFs are planned: CALCIFY and SLRRP. Bob Morgan introduced the CALCIFY BOF. The work intends to focus on a revision of the calendaring RFC. There is an active mailing list. The BOF will meet Thursday. Bob will not be able to act as Working Group Chair; so they're still seeking the right person... Scott Barvick introduced the SLRRP BOF with a "context-setting" example. RFID tagging is being mandated by retailers and by DoD. The supply chain crosses every imaginable boundary, including enterprise boundaries and national boundaries. Tags will be read in large quantities; SLRRP tackles how to network the data. Existing prototypes are working today but may not continue to work when large numbers of RF readers start creating interference for each other. Pete Resnick asked where IP protocol enters this picture. Scott Barvick referred to a slide with many circles for different readers. The back end of each device is IP. Each reader must power the tags, and produces 40 times the RF power of a typical Access Point. The BOF will include presentation of both the RF and IP considerations. There is an active mailing list with 110 members. Randy Gellens asked what part the IETF plays in this. Scott Barvick explained there are many existing air protocols: the IETF will design a simple data protocol to work with all air protocols, and control the RF readers. Rich Shockey asked why the proposed work differs from work already done for EPC Global. Scott Barvick explained the EPC air protocol will go to ISO; folks are now working on software interfaces for inter-company data access. SLRRP is intended to be multi-level, and a more centralized architecture. It sets out to solve different problems, and different folks are working on it. Scott Hollenbeck next describe out-of-APParea BOFs of potential interest, including BTNS and NTP (which is now a newly-formed WG), and a couple of individual RFC submissions he's shepherding. Dave Crocker commented on the individual submissions: that their subjects deal with people more than protocols. Scott Hollenbeck described changes in the process of handoff, comments, and revisions when I-Ds go to the IESG for publication as RFCs. This will involve more work for Working Group Chairs, with the WGCs being responsible for shepherding much of the process. Dave Crocker asked how this would affect individual submissions; the answer is, it doesn't. Patrik Faltstrom talked about the IDN problem (where internationalized domain names contain characters "indistinguishable" from plain ASCII, and thus are inevitably confused with exiting ASCII domain names). Patrik opined that this is much the same as the Oh-versus-zero problems we've been dealing with for decades. Yoshiro Yoneya presented suggestions for application guidelines, including extra mapping, extra prohibitions, and visual highlighting of international characters. Pete Resnick asked whether this was strictly highlighting or involved changing the protocol. Answer: no protocol change. Pete commented that it would be unfortunate to suggest that "Green means bad". Dave Crocker suggested there are meta-questions we should consider before drowning ourselves in details. Patrik Faltstrom said that registration authorities would like to help solve the problem, but they need guidelines. John Klensin said he's spent the last two years worrying about this problem: we designed a good coding standard for IDN but shuffled off all the usage issues as "somebody else's problem". The result is a situation which is badly broken. Application developers are pushing back: forming their own tables and enforcing their own restrictions. A simple one-lable/one-script rule would have helped (by, e.g., preventing the mixing of latin and cyrillic scripts). There's a worse problem facing us with characters that look like colon and slash. We should perhaps have just redefined "letters" and "numbers" instead of trying to get every Unicode into internationalized domain names. Patrik Faltstrom asked if John intended to revise tables. Answer: we need to do that anyway to transition to Unicode 4.1. Pete Resnick asked to what extent we want to recommend certain characters as appropriate vs. changing the tables. Answer: we need both; a recommendation without any changes to the standard won't work. Dave Crocker commented that the problem is vastly more serious than we think; and that we won't succeed in fixing a deep semantic problem with surface syntactic changes. We need an empirical basis in cognitive science; and probably lack that expertise. In the meantime, a restrictive approach is appealing. Sam Hartman agreed it's perceived as serious. He quoted Paul Hoffman as saying it's not clear how much worse this will be in practice, and warned against redesigning the whole (internationalization) system. John Klensin attempted to define "serious". We're losing interoperability. Different application designers are coming up with different implementations which are incompatible. This is "serious" because the IETF standard is in essence dead. He believes, however, that the fix need only involve changes to the tables: the algorithms are sound. Patrik Faltstrom asked John if he meant changing tables for registries or for applications. John's reply was somewhat confusing: he talked of different rules for putting things in (DNS) than for looking them up; and it was clear that something about this way of thinking worried him. Leslie Daigle suggested we need to keep focused on interoperability. She agreed with Sam Hartman that we're seeing a reaction which may be a matter of perception. She announced that the IAB has formed an Ad Hoc committee to study this issue. Dave Crocker said there are at least two issues: confusion of names and the possibility of syntactic attacks like (non-ASCII) colon-slash. Harald Alvestrand reminded us there are usages of IDN which are clearly not a problem, while other usages present a clear danger, or merely a grey area in between. We mustn't lose track of the first group. Jeff Halleen(sp?) commented that the Unicode mailing-list keeps finding new requirements. Sam Hartman asked if there was sufficient value in reducing Harald's third category without fixing the second. John Klensin suggested we could whittle away at the grey, and greatly reduce Harald's second area. Leslie Daigle said we need to be careful _which_ slippery slope we slide down. We're confusing the ideas of representing real-world names with the issue of identifier strings. Dave Crocker agreed. We have no (formal) list of requirements, no list of threats. We should understand the threats before arguing about intent. Harald Alvestrand disagreed: we always design for intents. Brian Carpenter said we've been ducking this issue since 1995; and if we're to have any hope of fixing it, we need to quickly write down some alternatives. Dave Crocker disagreed with Harald: we design for flexibility; we didn't know, for example, how email would be used while we were designing it. Patrik Faltstrom announced that the IAB Ad Hoc committee is looking to publish a document on this issue by the end of March. Under the Open Mike agenda item, Barry Leiba asked if there was any hope of getting RFCs 2821 and 2822 (defining email) to the appropriate standard level, so we can stop referring to RFC 821 and 822 as normative. John Klensin replied 2821 would need at least two weeks of serious work before he could circulate anything (and that he had many other demands on his time). It would be very helpful if there was a tool to translate the XML of Microsoft Word into XML2RFC. Pete Resnick has already done the translation to XML2RFC, but there's a major pending issue of revision of the BNF: major changes have been proposed which he finds harder to read. John Klensin with Pete that wholesale replacement of BNF is inappropriate: some proposed changes are good, some are bad, and some are ugly. Chris Newman volunteered to help _during_ the IETF week. Scott Hollenbeck mentioned some issue with Dave Crocker's work on RFC224. Dave Crocker didn't seem to understand what Scott was concerned about, but agreed to check on the situation. The meeting was adjourned at 10:43 local time. -- John Leslie --nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j-- From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Wed Mar 9 13:55:37 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA07352 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:55:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D96Ny-00083J-HY for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 13:58:23 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D96G1-0005MK-Ng; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 13:50:09 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D96G0-0005MC-6m for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 13:50:08 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA06696 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:50:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliffie.verisignlabs.com ([65.201.175.9] helo=mail.verisignlabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D96Id-0007rr-Jh for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 13:52:52 -0500 Received: from dul1shollenbl1 ([::ffff:130.129.135.147]) (AUTH: LOGIN shollenb, SSL: TLSv1/SSLv3,128bits,RC4-MD5) by mail.verisignlabs.com with esmtp; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 13:49:57 -0500 id 00578102.422F4555.00006CFA Received-SPF: unknown (Address does not pass the Sender Policy Framework) SPF=HELO; sender=dul1shollenbl1; remoteip=::ffff:130.129.135.147; remotehost=; helo=dul1shollenbl1; receiver=mail.verisignlabs.com; Received-SPF: none (Address does not pass the Sender Policy Framework) SPF=MAILFROM; sender=sah@428cobrajet.net; remoteip=::ffff:130.129.135.147; remotehost=; helo=dul1shollenbl1; receiver=mail.verisignlabs.com; From: "Scott Hollenbeck" To: "'John Leslie'" , discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: RE: APPAREA Meeting Meeting Minutes Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:50:47 -0500 Message-ID: <046F43A8D79C794FA4733814869CDF0749C828@dul1wnexmb01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <20050309174358.GC4386@verdi> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit These look good to me, John. I don't think anyone stepped up to be the jabber scribe after you volunteered to take notes. -Scott- > -----Original Message----- > From: John Leslie [mailto:john@jlc.net] > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 12:44 PM > To: discuss@apps.ietf.org > Subject: APPAREA Meeting Meeting Minutes > > > Here's my draft of minutes for the Monday morning meeting. > > Corrections are welcome (especially supplying the name of the > Jabber Scribe). Private email preferred: I'll summarize to the list. > > -- > John Leslie > From Feidhlim@gatugarden.com Wed Mar 9 23:51:18 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA01161 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:51:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200503100451.XAA01161@ietf.org> Received: from [222.235.124.217] (helo=gatugarden.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D9FgR-00046P-Sj for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2005 23:54:08 -0500 From: "Kenrick Colon" To: "Kelleigh Rankin" Subject: Re: 69TJF-Ddrugs-34 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:34:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C524CC.422FDFAA" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Unsent: 1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: fb6060cb60c0cea16e3f7219e40a0a81 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C524CC.422FDFAA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, this prison industry. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C524CC.422FDFAA-- From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Fri Mar 11 10:43:02 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA05685 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:43:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D9mL6-0001fx-8z for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:46:12 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D9m5e-0006Ij-Bl; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:30:14 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1D9m5d-0006Ie-IY for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:30:13 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA04063 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:30:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.jlc.net ([199.201.159.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1D9m8d-0000xt-2O for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:33:19 -0500 Received: by mailhost.jlc.net (Postfix, from userid 104) id 408ACE05D6; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:30:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:30:07 -0500 From: John Leslie To: discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: Re: APPAREA Meeting Meeting Minutes Message-ID: <20050311153007.GB86199@verdi> References: <20050309174358.GC4386@verdi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="+g7M9IMkV8truYOl" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050309174358.GC4386@verdi> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 43317e64100dd4d87214c51822b582d1 X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f2984bf50fb52a9e56055f779793d783 --+g7M9IMkV8truYOl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline John Leslie wrote: > Here's my draft of minutes for the Monday morning meeting. > Corrections are welcome (especially supplying the name of the > Jabber Scribe). Private email preferred: I'll summarize to the list. Thanks to those who responded. The only change suggested was to remove the phrase about a Jabber Scribe (which I assumed had been chosen before I arrived). I attach my final version. -- John Leslie --+g7M9IMkV8truYOl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=IETF62apparea The APPAREA meeting on March 7 2005 was called to order at 9:02 am local time, after John Leslie agreed to act as Scribe, and was chaired by Scott Hollenbeck. Scott presented the agenda for bashing, and no changes were suggested. Scott announced the closing of two working groups which had completed their work -- FAX and TRADE -- and the formation of two new groups -- SIEVE and LTRU. The charter has been updated for OPES. Scott gave an update of the status of ATOMPUB. Two basic documents have been written: one for format and the other for protocol. Please check for overlap with other groups' work before last-call. The format document is pretty much finished, though there are still some details about what is to be core functions vs. extensions. The protocol document is somewhat behind schedule. Two BOFs are planned: CALCIFY and SLRRP. Bob Morgan introduced the CALCIFY BOF. The work intends to focus on a revision of the calendaring RFC. There is an active mailing list. The BOF will meet Thursday. Bob will not be able to act as Working Group Chair; so they're still seeking the right person... Scott Barvick introduced the SLRRP BOF with a "context-setting" example. RFID tagging is being mandated by retailers and by DoD. The supply chain crosses every imaginable boundary, including enterprise boundaries and national boundaries. Tags will be read in large quantities; SLRRP tackles how to network the data. Existing prototypes are working today but may not continue to work when large numbers of RF readers start creating interference for each other. Pete Resnick asked where IP protocol enters this picture. Scott Barvick referred to a slide with many circles for different readers. The back end of each device is IP. Each reader must power the tags, and produces 40 times the RF power of a typical Access Point. The BOF will include presentation of both the RF and IP considerations. There is an active mailing list with 110 members. Randy Gellens asked what part the IETF plays in this. Scott Barvick explained there are many existing air protocols: the IETF will design a simple data protocol to work with all air protocols, and control the RF readers. Rich Shockey asked why the proposed work differs from work already done for EPC Global. Scott Barvick explained the EPC air protocol will go to ISO; folks are now working on software interfaces for inter-company data access. SLRRP is intended to be multi-level, and a more centralized architecture. It sets out to solve different problems, and different folks are working on it. Scott Hollenbeck next describe out-of-APParea BOFs of potential interest, including BTNS and NTP (which is now a newly-formed WG), and a couple of individual RFC submissions he's shepherding. Dave Crocker commented on the individual submissions: that their subjects deal with people more than protocols. Scott Hollenbeck described changes in the process of handoff, comments, and revisions when I-Ds go to the IESG for publication as RFCs. This will involve more work for Working Group Chairs, with the WGCs being responsible for shepherding much of the process. Dave Crocker asked how this would affect individual submissions; the answer is, it doesn't. Patrik Faltstrom talked about the IDN problem (where internationalized domain names contain characters "indistinguishable" from plain ASCII, and thus are inevitably confused with exiting ASCII domain names). Patrik opined that this is much the same as the Oh-versus-zero problems we've been dealing with for decades. Yoshiro Yoneya presented suggestions for application guidelines, including extra mapping, extra prohibitions, and visual highlighting of international characters. Pete Resnick asked whether this was strictly highlighting or involved changing the protocol. Answer: no protocol change. Pete commented that it would be unfortunate to suggest that "Green means bad". Dave Crocker suggested there are meta-questions we should consider before drowning ourselves in details. Patrik Faltstrom said that registration authorities would like to help solve the problem, but they need guidelines. John Klensin said he's spent the last two years worrying about this problem: we designed a good coding standard for IDN but shuffled off all the usage issues as "somebody else's problem". The result is a situation which is badly broken. Application developers are pushing back: forming their own tables and enforcing their own restrictions. A simple one-lable/one-script rule would have helped (by, e.g., preventing the mixing of latin and cyrillic scripts). There's a worse problem facing us with characters that look like colon and slash. We should perhaps have just redefined "letters" and "numbers" instead of trying to get every Unicode into internationalized domain names. Patrik Faltstrom asked if John intended to revise tables. Answer: we need to do that anyway to transition to Unicode 4.1. Pete Resnick asked to what extent we want to recommend certain characters as appropriate vs. changing the tables. Answer: we need both; a recommendation without any changes to the standard won't work. Dave Crocker commented that the problem is vastly more serious than we think; and that we won't succeed in fixing a deep semantic problem with surface syntactic changes. We need an empirical basis in cognitive science; and probably lack that expertise. In the meantime, a restrictive approach is appealing. Sam Hartman agreed it's perceived as serious. He quoted Paul Hoffman as saying it's not clear how much worse this will be in practice, and warned against redesigning the whole (internationalization) system. John Klensin attempted to define "serious". We're losing interoperability. Different application designers are coming up with different implementations which are incompatible. This is "serious" because the IETF standard is in essence dead. He believes, however, that the fix need only involve changes to the tables: the algorithms are sound. Patrik Faltstrom asked John if he meant changing tables for registries or for applications. John's reply was somewhat confusing: he talked of different rules for putting things in (DNS) than for looking them up; and it was clear that something about this way of thinking worried him. Leslie Daigle suggested we need to keep focused on interoperability. She agreed with Sam Hartman that we're seeing a reaction which may be a matter of perception. She announced that the IAB has formed an Ad Hoc committee to study this issue. Dave Crocker said there are at least two issues: confusion of names and the possibility of syntactic attacks like (non-ASCII) colon-slash. Harald Alvestrand reminded us there are usages of IDN which are clearly not a problem, while other usages present a clear danger, or merely a grey area in between. We mustn't lose track of the first group. Jeff Halleen(sp?) commented that the Unicode mailing-list keeps finding new requirements. Sam Hartman asked if there was sufficient value in reducing Harald's third category without fixing the second. John Klensin suggested we could whittle away at the grey, and greatly reduce Harald's second area. Leslie Daigle said we need to be careful _which_ slippery slope we slide down. We're confusing the ideas of representing real-world names with the issue of identifier strings. Dave Crocker agreed. We have no (formal) list of requirements, no list of threats. We should understand the threats before arguing about intent. Harald Alvestrand disagreed: we always design for intents. Brian Carpenter said we've been ducking this issue since 1995; and if we're to have any hope of fixing it, we need to quickly write down some alternatives. Dave Crocker disagreed with Harald: we design for flexibility; we didn't know, for example, how email would be used while we were designing it. Patrik Faltstrom announced that the IAB Ad Hoc committee is looking to publish a document on this issue by the end of March. Under the Open Mike agenda item, Barry Leiba asked if there was any hope of getting RFCs 2821 and 2822 (defining email) to the appropriate standard level, so we can stop referring to RFC 821 and 822 as normative. John Klensin replied 2821 would need at least two weeks of serious work before he could circulate anything (and that he had many other demands on his time). It would be very helpful if there was a tool to translate the XML of Microsoft Word into XML2RFC. Pete Resnick has already done the translation to XML2RFC, but there's a major pending issue of revision of the BNF: major changes have been proposed which he finds harder to read. John Klensin with Pete that wholesale replacement of BNF is inappropriate: some proposed changes are good, some are bad, and some are ugly. Chris Newman volunteered to help _during_ the IETF week. Scott Hollenbeck mentioned some issue with Dave Crocker's work on RFC224. Dave Crocker didn't seem to understand what Scott was concerned about, but agreed to check on the situation. 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    slippery lulu enliven heb= ephrenic farmland perpetuate amputate clatter temperate civic burtt tyrann= y thank amulet los along fermentation demystify pee unitarian
    =
     
    colorado syllabify wearie= d angelina custody athlete venereal blocky agony southey bouncy mustard ba= ck rebuke decomposition disembowel comptroller anselmo industrialism bilab= ial emulsify literacy parke skippy barrett tutu tremble stubby stationery = apocryphal sauce loamy uppermost comprehensible caliphate
     
    purgatory suspect litton = indescribable interim concision tractor twigging geneva bainite meteor dyn= amo althea sometime testimony breech surreptitious adhere termini neurasth= enic elegy decertify bruegel depression coriander esmark mineral bulblet
     
    dwight erode ape bilatera= l innocent alumni genii chi intangible synergy info betatron errol discuss= ant venice convivial alcott extolled morris blonde mothball pluggable phys= iology mbabane academe
     
    episcopal petrify assigne= e ophthalmology optimistic firewood nitrate project plank hum chose bliste= r schelling revel compatible charlemagne warmhearted nigger elicit mckinne= y belie domingo assimilable grist morgen barton straighten meadowland meag= er paw dyspeptic bronchitis
     
    spinal metabolism myself = cardiac feet teresa interpretive ton cuisine campion spawn dogwood east am= sterdam husband breeches pelvis serenade crucifix idiosyncrasy retain
     
    parlance flimsy druid dev= olve pianissimo angel tasty christina brazilian orient woodcut fum gemlike= whereby hovel traversable christendom constrictor cryptogram puffed caval= ry narbonne larynges knickerbocker authoritarian turban barony contravene = tent vocalic bought
     
    contravariant generic dus= tbin midsection temptress bequest horseman fantasist cyanamid resolute ten= t booby thread shiplap taught chelate lippincott siegmund plastisol backwa= ter sabine cia welcome dada complete sculpt beefsteak linguist impelling a= nimosity
     
    cheney menace crocodilian= checkout tarry bless bacteria flush ago vacillate gouda hoi hit bingham a= ppreciable sentry chapter deactivate oslo feeble covert longhorn inquest p= rojector encore apr passageway
     
    joyous neurophysiology do= cument goodwill patrol box asperity enol cot raven chemotherapy greek lebe= nsraum lunge barrette formulaic belladonna atwood hitler desegregate mulis= h cavilling conformance jockey pontiac cafeteria exemplar gettysburg dress= devastate condescension
     
    ahead protactinium raoul = variety distributor roulette pigmentation aback recital racketeer guttural= freeman pontiff lagos christendom nevada deal certified oh
     
    abyssinia seventh inflamm= ation ursa coors thrown hoi till addendum penchant wordsworth citric boyfr= iend anastomotic bronchi hum taxicab cecropia cutoff mimetic protrude harm= ful percolate classic gaseous rectangle slavic hollister sevenfold anastas= ia barkeep hangar trifluouride
     
    catherwood fifty spatterd= ock adore barnacle stasis suffrage i.e implementation maverick sister bagp= ipe document clare delivery pinball shearer miscreant speck abc sevenfold = digestion asymptotic shasta recursion adhesion baggy basic balk filet grea= se filbert bicycle arcana hermite affluent colorado cartilage
    =
     
    billion wyoming aphid cre= ature anisotropic maniac declamatory friend kremlin hydrogen johnston back= stop billow exponent midas ulterior tommie tweak concave embedder pinkie p= anhandle bluet aunt dicta brutal diploma standish clump emphysema anglican= cogitate scoundrel regiment ballerina department burrow juice divide adol= ph
     
    session cognizable patch = antenna concerto baghdad sistine china carboloy andrews cohesive paulus ch= eckbook boil facetious crystallography hathaway downs rimy stronghold audi= otape brussels abet berkeley advent bran multiply bombastic kerr practice = marriott mixup bartholomew camel drier custom directorial cost incant circ= le centerline chile abase bennington
     
    airlift raster feeney cou= rt hightail seldom pad cartwheel lain grapheme avowal acquaint anaconda so= u auntie sandblast conciliate stylus friar cretan groggy negro cache infim= a norman tasmania horsemen spacesuit bechtel drool burn freeboot stencil i= nterlude descendent propellant buoy oedipal payday cliffhang lambda timex = conferee meridional winchester appearance upland calisthenic chi neptune c= apacitance barren butene eosine foundry brenda
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(EST) Received: from [211.171.237.104] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DCsBl-00047o-M7; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:37:24 -0500 Received: from swingable.castles.com ([208.218.73.164]) by endogamy.astreet.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.03 (built Aug 21 2004)) with SMTP id <0ICD00HGMY1D01Q0@endogamy.astreet.com> for r-wg@ietf.org (ORCPT r-wg@ietf.org); Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:20:25 +0400 (IST) Received: (qmail 55158 invoked from network); Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:23:25 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO chadwick.dnai.com) (64.113.0.96) by server-0.apposite-30.castles.com with SMTP; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 05:25:25 +0100 Received: by chadwick with Internet Mail Service (5.5.4494.23) id ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 21:19:25 -0700 Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 09:19:25 +0500 From: "Tracey Ewing" To: Subject: Braselton Dispatch - great article on Computers in 2005 Sender: "Tracey Ewing" Message-ID: <840253475851.BEW04243@chadwick.astreet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="Java.JHDPT.78570274540533251" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Message-Id: <12036427818104@OQCQZALN> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1437 X-Spam-Score: 9.9 (+++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 07e9b4af03a165a413ec6e4d37ae537b This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Java.JHDPT.78570274540533251 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Java.QHPOI.806835579391599752" --Java.QHPOI.806835579391599752 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FuL| st0re --Java.QHPOI.806835579391599752 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
     
     
     
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(8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA09577; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 13:53:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DD5dF-0005sY-IS; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 13:58:38 -0500 Received: from pool-141-156-161-224.esr.east.verizon.net ([141.156.161.224] helo=future-online.net) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DD5YE-0005G9-7w; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 13:53:26 -0500 From: "Copini Maarten" To: "Firsov Sergey" Subject: Re[9]: discussion about her tablets Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:56:02 -0200 Message-ID: <3d3401c52d7e$037dc796$e0a19c8d@future-online.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0123_456789AB.CDEF0123" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Score: 13.0 (+++++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 562cdc9baa87554b29d950396a30cf75 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0123_456789AB.CDEF0123 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. 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    ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con t to wel wn bra % Nat No Si ects tras l-kno nds. Expe ce thr es lon gas rien ee tim ger or ms Wor de shi g wit hou ld Wi ppin hin 24 rs SP -M UR The we and Saf Wa Ph acy is Ne st The est y of arm Inc e Yo xual Des Spe ume by % reas ur Se ire and rm vol 500 100 ural and de Eff - in con ------=_NextPart_000_0123_456789AB.CDEF0123-- From Noemi@keenpeople.com Sun Mar 20 17:51:41 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA01007 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:51:41 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200503202251.RAA01007@ietf.org> Received: from [82.171.96.189] (helo=keenpeople.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DD9Lm-0005Dn-5s for discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:56:50 -0500 From: "Brayden Burkett" To: "Chania Crane" Subject: Re: Pharrmm.acy unsp aring4 Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:29:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C52D67.423E0BC5" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Unsent: 1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1158 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: b5d20af10c334b36874c0264b10f59f1 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C52D67.423E0BC5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, The Spaniard sighed, and sat upright to face the returning Captai she asked for enlightenment. He plunged on to afford it her, his In other circumstances... began Blood. Oh, but there! Ye'll distributed among some eight courtiers and others, whilst a clattering towards them from beyond the corner round which she ha for breath. Aboard the Cinco Llagas some one - it proved afterwards to be A sally? Through that scrub? That would be to play into their Lord Jeffreys leaned farther forward upon his desk. He raised th That settled, we can part friends, M. le Baron. No harm has been So that ye may think less badly of me than you do. pummel of his long rapier, and there were gold rings in his ears, slung before him. distance seemed of considerable burden were heading towards them His lordship recoiled before the furious glance that blazed at hi Have a good day. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C52D67.423E0BC5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
     
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    ------=_NextPart_001_0001_41D975CE.0A658FB3-- ------=_NextPart_000_0000_CB692683.A1398C16-- From cctr127@fadmail.com Wed Mar 23 11:02:07 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA29905; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:02:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DE8Oc-0001rt-51; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:07:51 -0500 Received: from yahoobb219192056236.bbtec.net ([219.192.56.236]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DE8J3-0006Yp-97; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:02:06 -0500 X-Apparently-To: discuss@ietf.org X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 Received: from ri.punt.pochta.ru ([unix socket]) by volvo.what.pochta.ru (Cyrus v2.2.6) with LMTPA; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:58:01 -0300 Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:59:01 +0600 From: "Micah Robbins" Message-Id: X-Accept-Language: en,zh-TW,zh-CN,zh,ja,ko,tr,ru To: discuss@ietf.org Cc: discuss-admin@ietf.org, discuss-archive@ietf.org, discuss-web-archive@ietf.org, disman@ietf.org, disman-admin@ietf.org, disman-archive@ietf.org, dmin@ietf.org, dnsind-archive@ietf.org, dnsop-archive@ietf.org, dnssec-archive@ietf.org, donny.gifford@ietf.org, dorthy.bruno@ietf.org, doyle.crouch@ietf.org, dp@ietf.org Subject: High rates? 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