From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Wed May 25 14:46:10 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Db0tO-0007gG-5u; Wed, 25 May 2005 14:46:10 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Db0tM-0007gB-5f for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 25 May 2005 14:46:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA07778 for ; Wed, 25 May 2005 14:46:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cliffie.verisignlabs.com ([65.201.175.9] helo=mail.verisignlabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Db1Bm-0005KO-Bx for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Wed, 25 May 2005 15:05:11 -0400 Received: from dul1shollenbl1 ([::ffff:216.168.239.87]) (AUTH: LOGIN shollenb, SSL: TLSv1/SSLv3,128bits,RC4-MD5) by mail.verisignlabs.com with esmtp; Wed, 25 May 2005 14:45:57 -0400 id 0059492B.4294C7E5.000003A4 From: "Scott Hollenbeck" To: discuss@apps.ietf.org Subject: FW: IETF Proceedings Submission Tool Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:45:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Thread-Index: AcVhWTDhVoCDyPMgRkKUKmpYposFhQAAFrJA Message-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 92df29fa99cf13e554b84c8374345c17 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Are any applications area working group chairs interested in participating? Note that it helps if you actually plan to meet in Paris. Please reply to the list if you're interested. -Scott- -----Original Message----- From: Barbara B. Fuller [mailto:bfuller@foretec.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 2:33 PM To: iesg@ietf.org Cc: Sunny Lee; Michael Lee Subject: IETF Proceedings Submission Tool Dear IESG Members: The Secretariat has developed a Web-based tool for uploading materials for inclusion in the IETF meeting proceedings. Brian has tested the tool, and has suggested that we gather user feedback from a small number of working group chairs at IETF 63, and aim for full deployment at IETF 64. He also suggested that in addition to its intended purpose, the tool might be used to upload presentations during the meeting as an adjunct to MP3 streaming. In order to obtain user feedback on the tool and to assess its suitability for on-site use, we would like to have two working groups from each of the six technical areas (or a total of 12 working groups) test the tool at IETF 63. To this end, we are asking for your assistance in identifying working group chairs who are willing to participate in this trial. All twelve working group chairs will test the "proceedings mode" version of the tool before the meeting, and provide some basic feedback to the developers. They will also use this tool to upload their minutes and presentation slides after the meeting. In addition, some of these working group chairs will be asked to test the "meeting mode" version of the tool and to use it to upload their presentations prior to the start of their sessions, so that the presentations will be available to the public during the audio-cast. Since we want to limit the number of groups offering simultaneous downloads to two or three, the specific groups selected for this latter task will depend on the schedule. If you would like your area to be included in this effort, then please send me the names of the working groups/working group chairs by COB ET on Friday, June 10, 2005. We will contact the participants shortly thereafter with instructions for testing the "proceedings mode" version of the tool. We will let them know if they have been selected to test the "meeting mode" version of the tool as well by COB ET on Monday, July 18, 2005. Please let me know if you have any questions, and thank you in advance for your assistance. Regards, Barbara ------------------------------------------------ Barbara B. Fuller Acting Executive Director Internet Engineering Task Force Natick, Massachusetts Office: Phone: +1-508-650-4020 Fax: +1-508-650-4639 Reston, Virginia Office: Phone: +1-703-620-9053 Fax: +1-703-620-9071 From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Sat May 28 13:00:55 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dc4gB-0006bR-1d; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:00:55 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dc4g8-0006bH-PT for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:00:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA17812 for ; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:00:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mxfep02.bredband.com ([195.54.107.73]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dc4zA-0002gs-Sl for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:20:33 -0400 Received: from postfix.dsv.su.se ([83.227.118.13] [83.227.118.13]) by mxfep02.bredband.com with ESMTP id <20050528170037.XPIG25621.mxfep02.bredband.com@postfix.dsv.su.se>; Sat, 28 May 2005 19:00:37 +0200 Received: from [192.168.0.174] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.dsv.su.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BA5A9E101; Sat, 28 May 2005 19:00:15 +0200 (CEST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000201c51d5b$0a4af080$ab78fb18@BillsLaptop> References: <000201c51d5b$0a4af080$ab78fb18@BillsLaptop> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 18:48:25 +0200 To: william_mcdonald@cox.net From: Jacob Palme Subject: Re: Recall email protocol Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1094822881==_ma============" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6e922792024732fb1bb6f346e63517e4 Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org --============_-1094822881==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 23:02 -0700 2005-02-27, William McDonald wrote: >I was interested in finding out if there is a standard >that addresses 'recalling of e-mail message'. I know that >Outlook does this, but I didn't know if it was an email >standard. I didn't find anything initially in my RFC >search. Usenet news has commands to delete already sent message, and also "Supersedes" which replaces an incorrect message with a correct version (and deletes the old version). I was working, some years ago, on a proposal for a new e-mail header "Replaces" which would work similarly to "In-Reply-To", i.e. not delete the old message. But the interest was not very high among implementors, so I gave up. I still think it is a good idea, it happens now and then that I need to revise my own messages after having sent them, and I know that many users of e-mail want it. But implementors are, understandably, wary of the security risks. The "Delete" command in Usenet News is accepted for use to delete spam, but when the Scientology Church started using this command to stop publishing of Usenet News articles it did not like, the risks with this kind of command was obvious, until we get some accepted authentication method for e-mail senders. The X.400 e-mail standard developed in the 1980s also had an "Obsoletes" command which was meant to work like "Replaces". I intentionally chose a new name, "Replaces" in the proposal I wrote, to avoid interpreting it like "Supersedes" in news. -- Professor Jacob Palme (Stockholm University and KTH) for more info see URL: http://www.dsv.su.se/jpalme/ --============_-1094822881==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: Recall email protocol
At 23:02 -0700 2005-02-27, William McDonald wrote:
I was interested in finding out if there is a standard that addresses 'recalling of e-mail message'.  I know that Outlook does this, but I didn't know if it was an email standard.  I didn't find anything initially in my RFC search.

Usenet news has commands to delete already sent message,
and also "Supersedes" which replaces an incorrect message
with a correct version (and deletes the old version).

I was working, some years ago, on a proposal for a new
e-mail header "Replaces" which would work similarly to
"In-Reply-To", i.e. not delete the old message. But the
interest was not very high among implementors, so I gave up.

I still think it is a good idea, it happens now and then
that I need to revise my own messages after having sent
them, and I know that many users of e-mail want it. But
implementors are, understandably, wary of the security
risks. The "Delete" command in Usenet News is accepted for
use to delete spam, but when the Scientology Church started
using this command to stop publishing of Usenet News
articles it did not like, the risks with this kind of
command was obvious, until we get some accepted
authentication method for e-mail senders.

The X.400 e-mail standard developed in the 1980s also
had an "Obsoletes" command which was meant to work like
"Replaces". I intentionally chose a new name, "Replaces"
in the proposal I wrote, to avoid interpreting it like
"Supersedes" in news.

--
Professor Jacob Palme <jpalme@dsv.su.se> (Stockholm University and KTH)
for more info see URL: http://www.dsv.su.se/jpalme/
--============_-1094822881==_ma============-- From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Sat May 28 13:00:55 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dc4gB-0006bq-84; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:00:55 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dc4g9-0006bM-DJ for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:00:53 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA17815 for ; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:00:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mxfep02.bredband.com ([195.54.107.73]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dc4zA-0002gt-R4 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:20:34 -0400 Received: from postfix.dsv.su.se ([83.227.118.13] [83.227.118.13]) by mxfep02.bredband.com with ESMTP id <20050528170037.XPIH25621.mxfep02.bredband.com@postfix.dsv.su.se> for ; Sat, 28 May 2005 19:00:37 +0200 Received: from [192.168.0.174] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.dsv.su.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA6BE9E102 for ; Sat, 28 May 2005 19:00:15 +0200 (CEST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 19:00:02 +0200 To: discuss@apps.ietf.org From: Jacob Palme Subject: Finding a working SMTP relayer Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org When you are travelling, it is often a nuisance to have to find out which SMTP relayer will work for sending your mail before you can send any messages. Before 1995, this was no problem, because then any SMTP relayer was willing to relay any message. As an anti-spam measure, this was stopped in the middle of the 1990-s. Your local SMTP relayer might accept messages from the outside if you log in to it with a password. Or you might install an SMTP relayer on your own laptop - I just tested getting postfix running on my (Mac OS X = Unix) laptop to relay my mail and it worked, thanks to a useful application "postfix enabler". However, my mail could still not get relayed, until I changed the postfix settings so that all outgoing mail was sent to the SMTP relayer of my ISP. And the whole idea was not having to find this out. Apparently, my ISP, and many other ISPs, stop all outgoing SMTP calls to other than their own mail relayer, probably to make spamming more difficult. Question: Is there a standard, or should a standard be made, to use the DNS to find out what the domain name is of the SMTP relayer in the network you are currently connected to? With such a standard, mail programs might automatically query the DNS to find out what the SMTP relayer is, and I would not have to manually change the setting of my email program every time I move from home to work or back. -- Professor Jacob Palme (Stockholm University and KTH) for more info see URL: http://www.dsv.su.se/jpalme/ From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Sat May 28 13:17:12 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dc4vw-0000aJ-FD; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:17:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dc4vv-0000aE-13 for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:17:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA18771 for ; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:17:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com ([209.55.107.55]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dc5Ew-0002zk-Ll for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:36:52 -0400 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii; format=flowed Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01LORG7X1UWG004Z7L@mauve.mrochek.com> for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 10:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 10:08:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sat, 28 May 2005 19:00:02 +0200" Message-id: <01LOSDOYK6BY004Z7L@mauve.mrochek.com> References: Subject: Re: Finding a working SMTP relayer To: Jacob Palme X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org > When you are travelling, it is often a nuisance to have to > find out which SMTP relayer will work for sending your mail > before you can send any messages. > Before 1995, this was no problem, because then any SMTP > relayer was willing to relay any message. As an anti-spam > measure, this was stopped in the middle of the 1990-s. > Your local SMTP relayer might accept messages from the > outside if you log in to it with a password. > Or you might install an SMTP relayer on your own laptop - I > just tested getting postfix running on my (Mac OS X = Unix) > laptop to relay my mail and it worked, thanks to a useful > application "postfix enabler". > However, my mail could still not get relayed, until I > changed the postfix settings so that all outgoing mail was > sent to the SMTP relayer of my ISP. And the whole idea was > not having to find this out. Apparently, my ISP, and many > other ISPs, stop all outgoing SMTP calls to other than > their own mail relayer, probably to make spamming more > difficult. > Question: Is there a standard, or should a standard be > made, to use the DNS to find out what the domain name is of > the SMTP relayer in the network you are currently connected > to? With such a standard, mail programs might automatically > query the DNS to find out what the SMTP relayer is, and I > would not have to manually change the setting of my email > program every time I move from home to work or back. See the discussion with the subject line "SMTP option for DHCPv6" on the ietf-822 list. The various issues with such an option have been brought out there, most of which are indepedent of the underlying mechanism (e.g., DHCP). I will also add that the existing DHCP SMTP server option is IMO fatally flawed, in that it doesn't allow for specification of either port numbers (essential) or domain names (highly desireable). I will also note that (expired) draft-hall-email-srv-03.txt may be of interest as part of this. Ned From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Sat May 28 14:12:21 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dc5nJ-0000qM-1l; Sat, 28 May 2005 14:12:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dc5nH-0000qG-4M for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 14:12:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA21934 for ; Sat, 28 May 2005 14:12:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from goose.ehsco.com ([207.65.203.98]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dc66J-00048s-E7 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 14:32:00 -0400 Received: from [10.29.41.119] (cable5-stm-13.gmpexpress.net [63.147.55.13]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by goose.ehsco.com (Postfix ) with ESMTP id 22E3420BCD; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:12:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <4298B46C.5080207@ehsco.com> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 14:11:56 -0400 From: "Eric A. Hall" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ned Freed Subject: Re: Finding a working SMTP relayer References: <01LOSDOYK6BY004Z7L@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <01LOSDOYK6BY004Z7L@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org, Jacob Palme X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org On 5/28/2005 1:08 PM, Ned Freed wrote: >> Question: Is there a standard, or should a standard be made, to use >> the DNS to find out what the domain name is of the SMTP relayer in >> the network you are currently connected to? With such a standard, >> mail programs might automatically query the DNS to find out what the >> SMTP relayer is, and I would not have to manually change the setting >> of my email program every time I move from home to work or back. > I will also note that (expired) draft-hall-email-srv-03.txt may be of > interest as part of this. I'll just point out that the I-D is keyed to user identity and not local topology. It would have solved Jacob's problem by automatically locating the submission server associated with his email domain (the ISP's public-facing submission server, if he was using an ISP account) but would not have located a server on the "local" network (unless a "local" email address were in use, of course). I'm still wanting to see the I-D proceed but at this point I think that it needs to be picked up by WG effort to go any further. Do folks think it's worth pursuing, and if so which WG should it go into (keep in mind it deals with submission, pop/imap and DNS all at the same time)? -- Eric A. Hall http://www.ehsco.com/ Internet Core Protocols http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/coreprot/ From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Sat May 28 14:15:01 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dc5pt-00018k-04; Sat, 28 May 2005 14:15:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dc5pq-00015X-NK for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 14:14:58 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA22233 for ; Sat, 28 May 2005 14:14:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 213-136-24-43.adsl.bit.nl ([213.136.24.43] helo=purgatory.unfix.org ident=postfix) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dc68r-0004DT-Ua for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 14:34:40 -0400 Received: from firenze.zurich.ibm.com (pat.zurich.ibm.com [195.176.20.45]) (using SSLv3 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CA3F7FE0; Sat, 28 May 2005 20:14:45 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Finding a working SMTP relayer From: Jeroen Massar To: Jacob Palme In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-TNEQ2O24SvCkaIhnbcxt" Organization: Unfix Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 20:14:40 +0200 Message-Id: <1117304080.577.7.camel@firenze.zurich.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.2 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org --=-TNEQ2O24SvCkaIhnbcxt Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 2005-05-28 at 19:00 +0200, Jacob Palme wrote: > Your local SMTP relayer might accept messages from the > outside if you log in to it with a password. See RFC2476 (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2476.txt) port 587 is not blocked in most cases and this also works when SPF or other mechanisms will be enabled in the coming years. Greets, Jeroen --=-TNEQ2O24SvCkaIhnbcxt Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Jeroen Massar / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iD8DBQBCmLUQKaooUjM+fCMRArCZAJ4wjYfplLu/rXc8rE+PwgE4cO+8FACcD3Yw fVnY8Axq9PJpGLnsfsMq2z0= =XUBy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-TNEQ2O24SvCkaIhnbcxt-- From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Sat May 28 16:25:30 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dc7sA-0003nb-1k; Sat, 28 May 2005 16:25:30 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dc7s8-0003nW-HZ for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 16:25:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA01537 for ; Sat, 28 May 2005 16:25:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com ([209.55.107.55]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dc8BA-00078U-UL for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 16:45:11 -0400 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01LORG7X1UWG004Z7L@mauve.mrochek.com> for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:25:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 13:24:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sat, 28 May 2005 14:11:56 -0400" <4298B46C.5080207@ehsco.com> Message-hash: Ggeh5lwQhHrBLMw4qE/Oyg== Message-id: <01LOSKACSRXY004Z7L@mauve.mrochek.com> References: <01LOSDOYK6BY004Z7L@mauve.mrochek.com> <4298B46C.5080207@ehsco.com> Subject: Re: Finding a working SMTP relayer To: Eric A Hall X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Cc: Jacob Palme , Ned Freed , discuss@apps.ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org > On 5/28/2005 1:08 PM, Ned Freed wrote: > >> Question: Is there a standard, or should a standard be made, to use > >> the DNS to find out what the domain name is of the SMTP relayer in > >> the network you are currently connected to? With such a standard, > >> mail programs might automatically query the DNS to find out what the > >> SMTP relayer is, and I would not have to manually change the setting > >> of my email program every time I move from home to work or back. > > I will also note that (expired) draft-hall-email-srv-03.txt may be of > > interest as part of this. > I'll just point out that the I-D is keyed to user identity and not local > topology. It would have solved Jacob's problem by automatically locating > the submission server associated with his email domain (the ISP's > public-facing submission server, if he was using an ISP account) but would > not have located a server on the "local" network (unless a "local" email > address were in use, of course). > I'm still wanting to see the I-D proceed but at this point I think that it > needs to be picked up by WG effort to go any further. Do folks think it's > worth pursuing, and if so which WG should it go into (keep in mind it > deals with submission, pop/imap and DNS all at the same time)? I'm all for proceeding with this document. IMO it solves an important problem, although not, as you say, the one Jacob asked about. Ned From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Tue May 31 11:03:50 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dd8HW-0007RS-Ed; Tue, 31 May 2005 11:03:50 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dd8HU-0007RK-94 for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 11:03:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16752 for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 11:03:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jay.songbird.com ([208.184.79.253]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dd8b5-0004LB-L4 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 11:24:06 -0400 Received: from Rincewind.ninebynine.org (jay.songbird.com [208.184.79.253]) (authenticated) by jay.songbird.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id j4VF2k823511; Tue, 31 May 2005 08:02:48 -0700 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050531123303.019df580@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: gk-bulk@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:37:36 +0100 To: Jacob Palme From: Graham Klyne Subject: Re: Finding a working SMTP relayer In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org At 19:00 28/05/05 +0200, you wrote: >When you are travelling, it is often a nuisance to have to >find out which SMTP relayer will work for sending your mail >before you can send any messages. Jacob, I overcome this by using an SSH tunnel to my "home" SMTP relay. SSH is usually (almost always?) an allowed protocol in foreign environments. This not only avoids "hunt the relay", but has obvious security benefits in foreign/open network environments. (Spam harvesting from wireless hotspots, anyone?) #g -- >Before 1995, this was no problem, because then any SMTP >relayer was willing to relay any message. As an anti-spam >measure, this was stopped in the middle of the 1990-s. > >Your local SMTP relayer might accept messages from the >outside if you log in to it with a password. > >Or you might install an SMTP relayer on your own laptop - I >just tested getting postfix running on my (Mac OS X = Unix) >laptop to relay my mail and it worked, thanks to a useful >application "postfix enabler". > >However, my mail could still not get relayed, until I >changed the postfix settings so that all outgoing mail was >sent to the SMTP relayer of my ISP. And the whole idea was >not having to find this out. Apparently, my ISP, and many >other ISPs, stop all outgoing SMTP calls to other than >their own mail relayer, probably to make spamming more >difficult. > >Question: Is there a standard, or should a standard be >made, to use the DNS to find out what the domain name is of >the SMTP relayer in the network you are currently connected >to? With such a standard, mail programs might automatically >query the DNS to find out what the SMTP relayer is, and I >would not have to manually change the setting of my email >program every time I move from home to work or back. >-- >Professor Jacob Palme (Stockholm University and KTH) >for more info see URL: http://www.dsv.su.se/jpalme/ ------------ Graham Klyne For email: http://www.ninebynine.org/#Contact From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Tue May 31 12:38:45 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dd9lN-00062T-RW; Tue, 31 May 2005 12:38:45 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dd9lM-00062O-FO for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 12:38:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA24115 for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 12:38:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com ([209.55.107.55]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdA4z-0006JL-VP for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 12:59:03 -0400 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii; format=flowed Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01LOUJM1TCZK00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 09:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 09:33:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Tue, 31 May 2005 12:37:36 +0100" <5.1.0.14.2.20050531123303.019df580@127.0.0.1> Message-id: <01LOWJ894H2600004T@mauve.mrochek.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050531123303.019df580@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Finding a working SMTP relayer To: Graham Klyne X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org, Jacob Palme X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org > At 19:00 28/05/05 +0200, you wrote: > >When you are travelling, it is often a nuisance to have to > >find out which SMTP relayer will work for sending your mail > >before you can send any messages. > Jacob, > I overcome this by using an SSH tunnel to my "home" SMTP relay. SSH is > usually (almost always?) an allowed protocol in foreign environments. > This not only avoids "hunt the relay", but has obvious security benefits in > foreign/open network environments. (Spam harvesting from wireless > hotspots, anyone?) I do more or less the same thing myself - I tunnel all sorts of services, including email, back to home base using SSH. And of course both TLS/SSL and IPSEC can be used instead of SSH. But this just begs the question of what the target audience is here. If we're talking about a solution for a bunch of tech geeks who have a setup at home or work or whereever to tunnel back to, then these sorts of thigns work fine. If, OTOH, we're talking about a solution for simplifying things for J Random Roamer, who typically isn't going to have something to connect the tunnel to, then none of this is terribly useful. Ned From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Tue May 31 21:48:12 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdIL5-00036R-W5; Tue, 31 May 2005 21:48:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdIL3-00036M-Lt for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 21:48:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA16999 for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 21:48:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=bs.jck.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdIel-0002pN-S8 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 22:08:33 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DdIKu-0004Wv-PL; Tue, 31 May 2005 21:48:01 -0400 Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:47:59 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: "Eric A. Hall" , Ned Freed Subject: Re: Finding a working SMTP relayer Message-ID: <790C8CAAE968DAD3B0AAD5DE@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4298B46C.5080207@ehsco.com> References: <01LOSDOYK6BY004Z7L@mauve.mrochek.com> <4298B46C.5080207@ehsco.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org, Jacob Palme X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Eric, Since you have mentioned that draft, maybe it is time to ask the symmetric question again. Ignoring a number of minor cases, there are two important cases of "how do I find an appropriate SMTP relay". One is covered by the draft, and relates, as you say, to finding a server appropriate to the user's identity. The other involves finding a server appropriate to the user's topology of the moment. In theory, that information can be delivered by DHCP. It can even be supplied that way when DHCP has not provided the IP address for the user's host. There is even a defined DHCP option for delivering SMTP server info. As Ned notes, that option, as now defined, is deeply flawed for a number of important cases. But, even for the cases in which it could be used, actual usage of the thing is very near zero. Some of that does have to do with DHCP: unless one makes a major excursion into the API business, and maybe even not then, the information needed to utilize DHCP properly is not readily available to mail clients at the right time, the refresh model is dubious, and there are other issues. So the next question is "is there any serious interest in working on a 'how to find the SMTP relay/submission server appropriate to the local topological environment'? This probably generalizes. E.g., if one believes in HTTP caching proxies, finding the right local one raises some of the same issues. john --On Saturday, May 28, 2005 14:11 -0400 "Eric A. Hall" wrote: > > On 5/28/2005 1:08 PM, Ned Freed wrote: > >>> Question: Is there a standard, or should a standard be made, >>> to use the DNS to find out what the domain name is of the >>> SMTP relayer in the network you are currently connected to? >>> With such a standard, mail programs might automatically >>> query the DNS to find out what the SMTP relayer is, and I >>> would not have to manually change the setting of my email >>> program every time I move from home to work or back. > >> I will also note that (expired) draft-hall-email-srv-03.txt >> may be of interest as part of this. > > I'll just point out that the I-D is keyed to user identity and > not local topology. It would have solved Jacob's problem by > automatically locating the submission server associated with > his email domain (the ISP's public-facing submission server, > if he was using an ISP account) but would not have located a > server on the "local" network (unless a "local" email address > were in use, of course). > > I'm still wanting to see the I-D proceed but at this point I > think that it needs to be picked up by WG effort to go any > further. Do folks think it's worth pursuing, and if so which > WG should it go into (keep in mind it deals with submission, > pop/imap and DNS all at the same time)? From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 00:03:07 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdKRf-0006jN-Tm; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 00:03:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdKRe-0006jC-RE for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 00:03:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA24284 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 00:03:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com ([209.55.107.55]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdKlN-0000mv-63 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 00:23:31 -0400 Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01LOX713ZY4G00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 21:01:03 -0700 (PDT) To: John C Klensin Message-id: <01LOX72COPQE00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:00:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed Subject: Re: Finding a working SMTP relayer In-reply-to: "Your message dated Tue, 31 May 2005 21:47:59 -0400" <790C8CAAE968DAD3B0AAD5DE@localhost> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed References: <01LOSDOYK6BY004Z7L@mauve.mrochek.com> <4298B46C.5080207@ehsco.com> <790C8CAAE968DAD3B0AAD5DE@localhost> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org, Jacob Palme , Ned Freed , Eric A Hall X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org (previous copy's header got garbled; apologies for the duplicate) > Since you have mentioned that draft, maybe it is time to ask the > symmetric question again. Ignoring a number of minor cases, > there are two important cases of "how do I find an appropriate > SMTP relay". One is covered by the draft, and relates, as you > say, to finding a server appropriate to the user's identity. > The other involves finding a server appropriate to the user's > topology of the moment. In theory, that information can be > delivered by DHCP. It can even be supplied that way when DHCP > has not provided the IP address for the user's host. There is > even a defined DHCP option for delivering SMTP server info. As > Ned notes, that option, as now defined, is deeply flawed for a > number of important cases. But, even for the cases in which it > could be used, actual usage of the thing is very near zero. > Some of that does have to do with DHCP: unless one makes a major > excursion into the API business, and maybe even not then, the > information needed to utilize DHCP properly is not readily > available to mail clients at the right time, the refresh model > is dubious, and there are other issues. Eric actually pointed this out in one of his responses (maybe to another list - I'm having trouble keeping some of these threads straight). The API situation would definitely have to change for serious DHCP provisioning of applications to be viable. I do see some small signs of hope, however. For example, in Mac OS X the location manager seems to be a place where DHCP options and location-specific network application settings come together. > So the next question is "is there any serious interest in > working on a 'how to find the SMTP relay/submission server > appropriate to the local topological environment'? This > probably generalizes. E.g., if one believes in HTTP caching > proxies, finding the right local one raises some of the same > issues. Very good point. These sorts of things definitely belong in the same category, some of them more so than submit server addresses. Offhand I'd say the place to start would be an option offering a list of services and corresponding servers/ports. Further elaboration would be needed, of course. Ned From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 00:19:17 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdKhJ-0000vs-6W; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 00:19:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdKhH-0000vn-Sx for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 00:19:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA25661 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 00:19:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdL0x-0001XB-An for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 00:39:40 -0400 Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j514J40R014358 for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 22:19:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fe7 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IHE00BZM1BRAH@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 22:19:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.24] ([216.113.204.6]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.02 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IHE00A7L1BLTI@mail.sun.net> for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 22:19:03 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:18:55 -0700 From: Tim Bray Subject: Re: Finding a working SMTP relayer In-reply-to: <01LOX72COPQE00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> To: discuss@apps.ietf.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <01LOSDOYK6BY004Z7L@mauve.mrochek.com> <4298B46C.5080207@ehsco.com> <790C8CAAE968DAD3B0AAD5DE@localhost> <01LOX72COPQE00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org One of the nice things about working for a big company (Sun in my case) is that they operate this big honking SMTP server that's password+SSL-protected and listens on a bunch of different ports. If I were an indie again, I'd cheerfully pay a couple bucks a month for such a service; put a choke on it allowing no more than a couple hundred emails a day and that would stop the spammers. I used to do the ssh trick too but this is less work and I've never been locked out of it once in the last year and a bit, and I'm a serious gipsy. So, is there really a problem? -Tim From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Thu Jun 02 10:26:58 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddqew-0000Sb-L1; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:26:58 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdK0G-00027a-6J for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 23:34:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA22548 for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 23:34:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:34:45 -0400 (EDT) From: ned.freed@mrochek.com Message-Id: <200506010334.XAA22548@ietf.org> Received: from mauve.mrochek.com ([209.55.107.55]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdKJz-0007lo-G2 for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 23:55:12 -0400 Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01LOX548H47K00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Tue, 31 May 2005 20:34:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Spam-Score: 2.9 (++) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:26:55 -0400 X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org > Since you have mentioned that draft, maybe it is time to ask the > symmetric question again. Ignoring a number of minor cases, > there are two important cases of "how do I find an appropriate > SMTP relay". One is covered by the draft, and relates, as you > say, to finding a server appropriate to the user's identity. > The other involves finding a server appropriate to the user's > topology of the moment. In theory, that information can be > delivered by DHCP. It can even be supplied that way when DHCP > has not provided the IP address for the user's host. There is > even a defined DHCP option for delivering SMTP server info. As > Ned notes, that option, as now defined, is deeply flawed for a > number of important cases. But, even for the cases in which it > could be used, actual usage of the thing is very near zero. > Some of that does have to do with DHCP: unless one makes a major > excursion into the API business, and maybe even not then, the > information needed to utilize DHCP properly is not readily > available to mail clients at the right time, the refresh model > is dubious, and there are other issues. Eric actually pointed this out in one of his responses (maybe to another list - I'm having trouble keeping some of these threads straight). The API situation would definitely have to change for serious DHCP provisioning of applications to be viable. I do see some small signs of hope, however. For example, in Mac OS X the location manager seems to be a place where DHCP options and location-specific network application settings come together. > So the next question is "is there any serious interest in > working on a 'how to find the SMTP relay/submission server > appropriate to the local topological environment'? This > probably generalizes. E.g., if one believes in HTTP caching > proxies, finding the right local one raises some of the same > issues. Very good point. These sorts of things definitely belong in the same category, some of them more so than submit server addresses. Offhand I'd say the place to start would be an option offering a list of services and corresponding servers/ports. Further elaboration would be needed, of course. Ned From discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Thu Jun 02 10:26:58 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddqew-0000T0-Sx; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:26:58 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdKmb-0001rV-Rr for discuss@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 00:24:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA26018 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 00:24:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sb7.songbird.com ([208.184.79.137]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdL6L-0001mm-4d for discuss@apps.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 00:45:10 -0400 Received: from bbprime (sb7.songbird.com [127.0.0.1]) by sb7.songbird.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j514PJOU024532; Tue, 31 May 2005 21:25:19 -0700 From: Dave Crocker To: Ned Freed , John C Klensin X-Mailer: PocoMail 3.4 (2130) - Licensed Version X-URL: bbiw.net Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:24:28 -0700 Message-ID: <2005531212428.528590@bbprime> In-Reply-To: <01LOX72COPQE00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> Subject: Re: Finding a working SMTP relayer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-SongbirdInformation: support@songbird.com for more information X-Songbird: Found to be clean X-Songbird-From: dcrocker@bbiw.net X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:26:55 -0400 Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org, Jacob Palme , Ned Freed , Eric A Hall X-BeenThere: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: general discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Errors-To: discuss-bounces@apps.ietf.org Ned, > I'm having trouble keeping some of these threads straight). I keep thinking that there is a serious need for an email client that helps= the dedicated user (high volume, long-term traffic) in terms of managing the= daily load, facilitating dialogue, managing the long term storage issues, etc. I= believe those of us with that need today are indicators of a larger market= need. You've raised an aspect of thread management I hadn't quite connected with before, since my thinking has focused on on-going within-thread issues. But= I suspect there are a number of cross-thread issues, such as you suggest. Sure wish there were a way to pursue this. d/ --- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking +1.408.246.8253 dcrocker a t ... WE'VE MOVED to: www.bbiw.net