From nobody Wed Mar 5 22:25:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0AA01A00D9 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 22:25:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8XhhcoXjnpdH for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 22:25:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8597C1A00B9 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 22:25:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s266PasG016300 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 5 Mar 2014 22:25:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1394087143; bh=u/vZMdIGGiMUmS3eqL7Wk6pbHAYCKLG7Y1SE9TSmtpM=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc; b=KwM3JU7d3InNi6lZmsubsk/fqYXbeJwNDH5h0YglojmM5QZKdwd5nG0LwnQ2LFThC +w/ABCf8iglbP0sy19S61YWR2zgOG5RoA6xSX45Gcn6lCboMN+zv6e9j5t1ksh2UYh 5Z3SECrP4/iF5NPvMB82ULocQQlVswUAesXnHlCw= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1394087143; i=@resistor.net; bh=u/vZMdIGGiMUmS3eqL7Wk6pbHAYCKLG7Y1SE9TSmtpM=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc; b=dwQ5sa2e1dqRMXc1RdymgGloNHC6Yxjh8d7DgcDwFa/EKcHVLDWcFIFCpduRINxfg yYx4NrmrUTrVIiJWU6+0qe57XT95VWaf8Wxi6KJdRg9bkaeVbUPJ7XLAloc6nYWQhL 9lkbAeN8k76vcqYH0Dg4KQ5MZz+maOhXv6uEIMyk= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20140305134027.0d8d0970@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 22:21:23 -0800 To: Dave Crocker , Narelle Clark From: SM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/A6qED20nSmvwQQECxYEDteTTehU Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: [Diversity] Comments on draft-crocker-diversity-conduct-00 X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 06:25:53 -0000 Hi Dave, Narelle, Thank you for writing draft-crocker-diversity-conduct-00. It is in good shape for a -00 draft. In Section 2.2: "However the IETF has a long history of tolerating aggressive and even hostile behavior by participants." It has been said that: "The IETF culture of openness also tends to tolerate participants who, whilst understanding the principles of the IETF, disagree with them and actively ignore them." In Section 3.4: "It's track record with management and process documentation" There is a typo, "Its". The draft raises questions about the IETF as an unbiased organization. The following text: "Historically participation in the IETF and its antecedent was almost entirely composed of well-funded, American, white, male engineers." is controversial. It can be rationalized that it is how the world works. Does it follow that: "management the IETF can be significantly in-bred, favoring selection of well-known, white, male, American technicians" According to the statistics presented yesterday participation from the United States is below 50%. According to the statistics 70% of the authors for recent RFCs are from the United States. There is an even higher percentage involved in management-related discussions, whether it is at meetings or on the ietf@ mailing list. "However the results of the systers experiment were not encouraging. In spite of their engineering a disproportionately high number of female candidates, not a single one was selected." It can be problematic if specific groups of people ran experiments such as the above to test NomCom. "Getting to a face to face meeting costs a great deal of money and time; remote participation often incurs time-shifting that include very early or very late hours." It is a huge challenge in terms of money and (time) scheduling. It can be difficult for a person to understand the decisions if the person does not follow the (audio) discussions. That has an impact on whether a person has, in practice, a fair opportunity to object to a decision. The overtly aggressive style in the IETF is intimidating. This is where a person has to decide whether to adopt the same style or walk away from the IETF. It could be said that it does not pay to be nice. The following was written in 2004: "Members of this affinity group tend to talk more freely to each other and former members of the affinity group - this may be because the affinity group has also come to share a cultural outlook which matches the dominant cultural ethos of the IETF (North American, English speaking). Newcomers to the organization and others outside the affinity group are reluctant to challenge the apparent authority of the extended affinity group during debates and consequently influence remains concentrated in a relatively small group of people." A person, who is not from the dominant culture, would be very reluctant to participate in the debates. That person could be given a label which is humiliating. It is discouraging to see such behavior going unchallenged. Section 5 of the draft mentions that: "The security of the IETF's role in the Internet community depends upon its credibility as an open and productive venue for collaborative development of technical documents." Discussions which might not happen on ietf@ will happen in other venues. That can affect the credibility of the organization. Quoting from an article which was published today: 'The way in which the Internet operates is based on an implied social contract [1] between 1,400 engineers (and their employers) and 2 billion users. That "contract" has not kept pace with the evolution of the Internet. It is now broken. It is up to "who?" to fix it before the consequences cause business and regulatory models to unravel - as users withdraw their consent to be treated as commodities to be bought, sold and told what to do, with no effective voice or choice.' Regards, -sm 1. an actual or hypothetical agreement among the members of an organized society or between a community and its ruler that defines and limits the rights and duties of each From nobody Wed Mar 5 23:19:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC32F1A00FF for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 23:19:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 75yP0v-u7EfQ for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 23:19:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yh0-x22e.google.com (mail-yh0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c01::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 870361A00F3 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 23:19:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yh0-f46.google.com with SMTP id v1so2237650yhn.33 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 23:19:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=7TXxMleDz7fVeQBB7l/60PwBWzGIuubMm4fLZCto97w=; b=TVWwBUO5JQinqlpIY/Je0ya3ttgql5Dv4bf+NvoNteVdbGouOwjaf3FNwLBaj2iAe7 DmXW9ZwsP2rV473slArpTCfPFXnxBQN04Tamrzemqj0lX1Bb0/UAZVzDJlEf8izsDHSl JhRrhPuOgDD+w/5PXRahvVQeKwh8Q9/UerZ/4odwi7Xkwu7fiQcSlkJy53qn9Uiwc1oQ 7jKb2XCiz1ak/JnFwo9MKlwp/v7r2RU49fKxFsWMqoMnGWFiMls0JRIL579U+Qqobxpr o7Si+KJo1b0gHLcMUfjkLFMZ9CtaRnSR04l6/FKCNt2LooPm12tbVr9jOUD2VOO5DONX S9eA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.113.115 with SMTP id z79mr12581741yhg.8.1394090365617; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 23:19:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.170.202.7 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 23:19:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20140305134027.0d8d0970@elandnews.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20140305134027.0d8d0970@elandnews.com> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 08:19:25 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: SM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf300faba9070a4104f3eaf5dc Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/Ry-o2Dwcg7zXBKNpm_po3LeU270 Cc: Narelle Clark , Dave Crocker , "diversity@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Comments on draft-crocker-diversity-conduct-00 X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 07:19:33 -0000 --20cf300faba9070a4104f3eaf5dc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thursday, March 6, 2014, SM wrote: > Hi Dave, Narelle, > > Thank you for writing draft-crocker-diversity-conduct-00. It is in good > shape for a -00 draft. > > In Section 2.2: > > "However the IETF has a long history of tolerating aggressive and even > hostile behavior by participants." > > It has been said that: > > "The IETF culture of openness also tends to tolerate participants who, > whilst understanding the principles of the IETF, disagree with them > and actively ignore them." The object is different in the two paragraph above. The first is related to personal behavior against another. The IETF culture is open on disagreeing behavior against documents/policies/technologies but not open to personal issues. > In Section 3.4: > > "It's track record with management and process documentation" > > There is a typo, "Its". > > > The draft raises questions about the IETF as an unbiased organization. > The following text: > > "Historically participation in the IETF and its antecedent was almost > entirely composed of well-funded, American, white, male engineers." > > is controversial. It can be rationalized that it is how the world works. > Does it follow that: > > "management the IETF can be significantly in-bred, favoring selection > of well-known, white, male, American technicians" > > According to the statistics presented yesterday participation from the > United States is below 50%. According to the statistics 70% of the authors > for recent RFCs are from the United States. There is an even higher > percentage involved in management-related discussions, whether it is at > meetings or on the ietf@ mailing list. That is due to meetings location is in USA, new technologies start mostly in USA and that IETF started in USA so it is a normal known bias. In future it can change if IETF is considering more attraction. Don't forget that companies are international so it has no region so new technology now is every where in the world and no bias. > > "However the results of the systers experiment were not encouraging. > In spite of their engineering a disproportionately high > number of female candidates, not a single one was selected." > > It can be problematic if specific groups of people ran experiments such as > the above to test NomCom. Yes nomcom should be audit evaluated from time to time. > "Getting to a face to face meeting costs a great deal of money and > time; remote participation often incurs time-shifting that include > very early or very late hours." > > It is a huge challenge in terms of money and (time) scheduling. It can be > difficult for a person to understand the decisions if the person does not > follow the (audio) discussions. That has an impact on whether a person > has, in practice, a fair opportunity to object to a decision. Yes female don't mostly object quick to a decision that is a male behaviour may be. However, if they were trained they will follow easily. > > The overtly aggressive style in the IETF is intimidating. This is where a > person has to decide whether to adopt the same style or walk away from the > IETF. It could be said that it does not pay to be nice. There are many alternatives to what a person will decide against aggressive. There is a possibility in future we see two IETF people in the police station because of such behaviours as in football games that many humans like. The following was written in 2004: > > "Members of this affinity group tend to talk more freely to each other > and former members of the affinity group Agree > - this may be because the > affinity group has also come to share a cultural outlook which > matches the dominant cultural ethos of the IETF (North American, > English speaking). Newcomers to the organization and others outside > the affinity group are reluctant to challenge the apparent authority > of the extended affinity group during debates and consequently > influence remains concentrated in a relatively small group of people." Disagree. It is about diversity and way of thinking, not about new group or old, new come or old. There is no good reasons for above paragraph conclusion. The new comers have open mind more than the group closed mind or follow mind. The new comer is more easy to see out of the box. Now organisations in all the world always try to think out of the BOX. I think IETF is doing such method but still not quickly because lacks diversity. > A person, who is not from the dominant culture, would be very reluctant to > participate in the debates. > Disagree > That person could be given a label which is humiliating. It is > discouraging to see such behavior going unchallenged. Agree, but why such organisation is watching and not responding. Does the organisation care about work progress (team work) or not? > > Section 5 of the draft mentions that: > > "The security of the IETF's role in the Internet community depends > upon its credibility as an open and productive venue for > collaborative development of technical documents." > > Discussions which might not happen on ietf@ will happen in other venues. > That can affect the credibility of the organization. Agree because IETF has competitors. However, There is possibility that competitors are causing internal problems already to IETF. > > Quoting from an article which was published today: > > 'The way in which the Internet operates is based on an implied social > contract [1] between 1,400 engineers (and their employers) and 2 billion > users. That "contract" has not kept pace with the evolution of the > Internet. It is now broken. It is up to "who?" to fix it before the > consequences cause business and regulatory models to unravel - as users > withdraw their consent to be treated as commodities to be bought, sold > and told what to do, with no effective voice or choice.' Yes. That is the future coming now and facing companies or IETF. The good behaviour internet community is always stronger than any group or organisation. AB > > Regards, > -sm > > 1. an actual or hypothetical agreement among the members of an organized > society or between a community and its ruler that defines and limits the > rights and duties of each > > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > --20cf300faba9070a4104f3eaf5dc Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thursday, March 6, 2014, SM wrote:
Hi Dave, Narelle,

Thank you for writing draft-crocker-diversity-conduct-00. =A0It is i= n good shape for a -00 draft.

In Section 2.2:

=A0 "However the IETF has a long history of tolerating aggressive and = even
=A0 =A0hostile behavior by participants."

It has been said that:

=A0 "The IETF culture of openness also tends to tolerate participants = who,
=A0 =A0whilst understanding the principles of the IETF, disagree with them<= br> =A0 =A0and actively ignore them."

The = object is different in the=A0two paragraph above. The first is related to p= ersonal behavior against another. The IETF culture is open on disagreeing b= ehavior against documents/policies/technologies but not open to personal is= sues.=A0=A0


In Section 3.4:

=A0 "It's track record with management and process documentation&q= uot;

There is a typo, "Its".


The draft raises questions about the IETF as an unbiased organization. =A0T= he following text:

=A0 "Historically participation in the IETF and its antecedent was alm= ost
=A0 =A0entirely composed of well-funded, American, white, male engineers.&q= uot;

is controversial. =A0It can be rationalized that it is how the world works.= =A0Does it follow that:

=A0 "management the IETF can be significantly in-bred, favoring select= ion
=A0 =A0of well-known, white, male, American technicians"

According to the statistics presented yesterday participation from the Unit= ed States is below 50%. =A0According to the statistics 70% of the authors f= or recent RFCs are from the United States. =A0There is an even higher perce= ntage involved in management-related discussions, whether it is at meetings= or on the ietf@ mailing list.

That is due to meetings location is in USA, new technol= ogies start mostly in USA=A0and that IETF started in USA so it is a=A0norma= l known=A0bias. In future it can change if IETF is considering more attract= ion. Don't forget that companies are international so it has no region = so new=A0technology now is every where in the world and no bias.=A0
=A0

=A0 "However the results of the systers experiment were not encouragin= g.
=A0 =A0In spite of their engineering a disproportionately high
=A0 =A0number of female candidates, not a single one was selected."
It can be problematic if specific groups of people ran experiments such as = the above to test NomCom.

Yes nomcom should= be audit=A0evaluated from=A0=A0time to time.=A0


=A0 "Getting to a face to face meeting costs a great deal of money and=
=A0 =A0time; remote participation often incurs time-shifting that include =A0 =A0very early or very late hours."

It is a huge challenge in terms of money and (time) scheduling. =A0It can b= e difficult for a person to understand the decisions if the person does not= follow the (audio) discussions. =A0 =A0That has an impact on whether a per= son has, in practice, a fair opportunity to object to a decision.

Yes female don't mostly object quick=A0to a decisio= n that is a male behaviour may be. However, if they were trained they will = follow easily.=A0
=A0

The overtly aggressive style in the IETF is intimidating. =A0This is where = a person has to decide whether to adopt the same style or walk away from th= e IETF. =A0It could be said that it does not pay to be nice. =A0

There are m= any alternatives to what a person will decide against aggressive. There is = a possibility in=A0future=A0we see two IETF=A0people in the police station = because of such behaviours as in football games that many humans=A0like.=A0=

The following was written in = 2004:

=A0 "Members of this affinity group tend to talk more freely to each o= ther
=A0 =A0and former members of the affinity group=A0

Agree
=A0
- this may be because the
=A0 =A0affinity group has also come to share a cultural outlook which
=A0 =A0matches the dominant cultural ethos of the IETF (North American,
=A0 =A0English speaking). =A0Newcomers to the organization and others outsi= de
=A0 =A0the affinity group are reluctant to challenge the apparent authority=
=A0 =A0of the extended affinity group during debates and consequently
=A0 =A0influence remains concentrated in a relatively small group of people= ."

Disagree. It is about diversity and= way of thinking, not about new group or old, new come or old.=A0=A0There i= s no=A0good reasons for above paragraph=A0conclusion. The new comers have o= pen mind more than the group closed mind or follow mind. The new comer is m= ore easy to see out of the box. Now organisations in all the world always t= ry to think out of the BOX. I think=A0IETF is doing such method but still n= ot quickly because lacks diversity.=A0


A person, who is not from the dominant culture, would be very reluctant to = participate in the debates. =A0
=A0
Disagree
=A0

Section 5 of the draft mentions that:

=A0 "The security of the IETF's role in the Internet community dep= ends
=A0 =A0upon its credibility as an open and productive venue for
=A0 =A0collaborative development of technical documents."

Discussions which might not happen on ietf@ will happen in other venues. = =A0That can affect the credibility of the organization.
Agree because IETF has competitors. However,=A0There is possib= ility that competitors are causing internal problems already to IETF.=A0
=A0

Quoting from an article which was published today:

=A0 'The way in which the Internet operates is based on an implied soci= al
=A0 =A0contract [1] between 1,400 engineers (and their employers) and 2 bil= lion
=A0 =A0users. =A0That "contract" has not kept pace with the evolu= tion of the
=A0 =A0Internet. It is now broken. It is up to "who?" to fix it b= efore the
=A0 =A0consequences cause business and regulatory models to unravel - as us= ers
=A0 =A0withdraw their consent to be treated as commodities to be bought, so= ld
=A0 =A0and told what to do, with no effective voice or choice.'

Yes.=A0That is the future coming now and facing co= mpanies or IETF. The good behaviour=A0internet community is always=A0strong= er than any group or organisation.=A0

AB
=A0
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity
--20cf300faba9070a4104f3eaf5dc-- From nobody Thu Mar 6 00:37:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB3D11A0121 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 00:37:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jVU8xegfiqgy for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 00:37:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 826471A0020 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 00:37:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s268bDpO003558 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 6 Mar 2014 00:37:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1394095041; bh=Qvq0KnvR9tflC45yuO2WVYw5WXt4AkFmADlOmitUnZE=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=3VJfNpKfOVy0T/4HrsYBIQNPXjPb4syHzaAVpkrXOy7v5joq7QpBHZX+kDuS8Rxvb J8yBGl9ii5WExJxZEjskUILAkL6H9Rz2BE8yc35ZiU+yeXwyJT/Hd04G8PdZhrcS8e Ar6jLuWXcnqXdrwDObbLbENLHzqf4j5huchJGLl4= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1394095041; i=@resistor.net; bh=Qvq0KnvR9tflC45yuO2WVYw5WXt4AkFmADlOmitUnZE=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=j46JayCe3rCcBVWd6b+y+7OtsGUVEsfPZBwcu8i5uc+jtDN+s37Ck83R4Nkf/AY7c oKLl7G/ohXOWJszWmv76yO5G39PFNhh5duyUdNyXd2NfYqjEVQgkNdGz0IM1K6xxLf acwXQAZ2spBBSPXBfIZnzuvuOCytdH0E+e8OPK6Q= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20140305235343.0ca78b00@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 00:23:47 -0800 To: Abdussalam Baryun From: SM In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20140305134027.0d8d0970@elandnews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/lqgiUoeZCENxbQByXclZO-YhCpY Cc: Narelle Clark , Dave Crocker , diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Comments on draft-crocker-diversity-conduct-00 X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 08:37:35 -0000 Hi Abdussalam, At 23:19 05-03-2014, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: >Agree, but why such organisation is watching and not responding. >Does the organisation care about work progress (team work) or not? It is not possible for a mailing list moderator to watch a mailing list twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. I cannot speak for the organisation. >Yes. That is the future coming now and facing companies or IETF. The >good behaviour internet community is always stronger than any group >or organisation. http://www.wired.com/business/2012/06/youtube-commenters/ http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-09/why-were-shutting-our-comments The internet is not known for good behavior. It is only possible to know what caused a fracture (of the internet) after it happened. Nobody really knows how to fix that fracture. Regards, -sm From nobody Thu Mar 6 01:58:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CF601A019A for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:58:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OgneJ3s05tOv for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:58:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yh0-x235.google.com (mail-yh0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c01::235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15F981A01CB for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:58:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yh0-f53.google.com with SMTP id v1so2365248yhn.12 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 01:57:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=DMVOdLHYdZ6aVuEHxdvKh0Vym8BqAqxj6dZ0zGVVxKs=; b=QiSc7N7TnywAXR2BRpPI+38lpgFqoB9ubwCdM0n9r0VVSDQdutklkHxcVDinSkFf5g XW7IRflu4LPfq3H0YqsPtmnUA9QUl+TTdIb50F0sfpGMTuLRdEt+sELqvAQLkzLAG0ks IvvZF80yRj3IPUa4ZN/q4fEshnXHmWOiuibeArR8X6vho2lJ3rap3ovqPHhj1+lnkXe5 eu1EYyjdCZiuKW3iNk2IMpTwlGtliOxWpReVfgecjyseCPmDc7BwXR5N9VWGraregnY0 yl1Kfqpd4OgQPkqLNb+hab2UM/5pvYbfWguHddwUqwkL4C1/dI3DPyOr3+F4rVPC7TMB AFdg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.119.141 with SMTP id n13mr340824yhh.136.1394099878013; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 01:57:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.170.202.7 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:57:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20140305235343.0ca78b00@resistor.net> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20140305134027.0d8d0970@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20140305235343.0ca78b00@resistor.net> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 10:57:57 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: SM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3005df7802b16204f3ed2c79 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/sGlUxrJbLZLb9leAMlZn1Ug13Ic Cc: Narelle Clark , Dave Crocker , "diversity@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Comments on draft-crocker-diversity-conduct-00 X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 09:58:04 -0000 --20cf3005df7802b16204f3ed2c79 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi SM, It is interesting discussing with you, hope to get reply from Dave, I tried to meet him and you but no much time I had available in the IETF meeting it was only one day for me. However, hopefully in future we meet in next IETF meetings. Comments below, On Thursday, March 6, 2014, SM wrote: > Hi Abdussalam, > At 23:19 05-03-2014, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: > >> Agree, but why such organisation is watching and not responding. Does the >> organisation care about work progress (team work) or not? >> > > It is not possible for a mailing list moderator to watch a mailing list > twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. Each list has a WG chair or a list Chair, each meeting has a chair, otherwise we don't call an organisation an organisation if it is not organised ;-) > > The internet is not known for good behavior. The community has majority good and minority bad. The internet environment is not like the film of; Good, Bad and the Ugly. The internet environment is a virtual land that people/community should organise to make the land progress. The organised good community is always stronger as I said in my previous message. > It is only possible to know what caused a fracture (of the internet) after > it happened. Nobody really knows how to fix that fracture. Disagree, it is very possible easy to know causes, if happens and if still did not happen. If we are smart organisation or smart managers or smart chairs or smart directors, we don't wait until bad things happen. We act before things happen and we know where things will go in future by looking at what is happening and the causes. Therefore we prevent the bad and encourage the good, we don't look for money and shoot like the film movie mentioned above (we should look for good technologies, best practices, and good progress, and never shoot who disagree). Best regards AB --20cf3005df7802b16204f3ed2c79 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi SM,

It is interesting discussing with you, hope t= o get reply from Dave, I tried to meet him and you but no much time I had a= vailable in the IETF meeting it was only one day for me. However, hopefully= in future we meet in next IETF=A0meetings. Comments below,

On Thursday, March 6, 2014, SM wrote:
Hi Abdussalam,
At 23:19 05-03-2014, Abdussalam Baryun wrote:
Agree, but why such organisation is watching and not responding. Does the o= rganisation care about work progress (team work) or not?

It is not possible for a mailing list moderator to watch a mailing list twe= nty-four hours a day, seven days a week.

Ea= ch list has a WG chair or a list Chair, each meeting has a chair, otherwise= we don't call an organisation an organisation if it is not organised ;= -)
=A0

The internet is not known for good behavior.

The community has majority good and minority bad. The internet environmen= t=A0is not like the film of;=A0Good, Bad and the Ugly. The internet environ= ment is a virtual=A0land that people/community=A0should organise to make th= e land progress. The organised good community is always stronger as I said = in my previous message.=A0


It is only possible to know what caused a fracture (of the internet) after = it happened. =A0Nobody really knows how to fix that fracture.
<= div>
Disagree,=A0it is very possible easy to know causes, if = happens and if still did not happen. If we are smart organisation or smart = managers or smart chairs or smart directors,=A0we don't wait until bad = things happen. We act before things happen and we know where things will go= in future by looking at what is happening and the causes. Therefore we pre= vent the bad and encourage the good, we don't look for money and shoot = like the film movie=A0mentioned above (we should=A0look for good technologi= es,=A0best practices,=A0and good progress, and never shoot who disagree).= =A0

Best regards

AB=A0
--20cf3005df7802b16204f3ed2c79-- From nobody Thu Mar 6 02:00:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E2ED1A01C1 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:59:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nW7vBDDZenQV for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:59:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18BA91A01F3 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:59:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [31.133.166.229] (dhcp-a6e5.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.166.229]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s269xeP7032536 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:59:44 -0800 Message-ID: <531846C9.7090905@dcrocker.net> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 09:58:33 +0000 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SM , Narelle Clark References: <6.2.5.6.2.20140305134027.0d8d0970@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20140305134027.0d8d0970@elandnews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Thu, 06 Mar 2014 01:59:45 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/L1BXm0yjZNYfUkek5FRZSQGyHac Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Comments on draft-crocker-diversity-conduct-00 X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 09:59:52 -0000 SM, Thanks for the comments. Inline. On 3/6/2014 6:21 AM, SM wrote: > In Section 2.2: > > "However the IETF has a long history of tolerating aggressive and even > hostile behavior by participants." > > It has been said that: > > "The IETF culture of openness also tends to tolerate participants who, > whilst understanding the principles of the IETF, disagree with them > and actively ignore them." 1. We can't know whether they understand or not. 2. It doesn't matter whether they understand. In either case the behavior is problematic. 3. In a paper that expresses concern about focusing on the human rather than the issues, we should be very judicious about any discussion of what goes on inside a person... > The draft raises questions about the IETF as an unbiased organization. > The following text: > > "Historically participation in the IETF and its antecedent was almost > entirely composed of well-funded, American, white, male engineers." > > is controversial. I don't think it's controversial, though of course it is uncomfortable by virtue of the nature of the topic. It's making a statistical assertion about demographic characteristics of the original community. While there were sprinklings of woman, europeans, and non-caucasians, each was in very short supply. > It can be rationalized that it is how the world > works. Does it follow that: > > "management the IETF can be significantly in-bred, favoring selection > of well-known, white, male, American technicians" No it doesn't follow and it isn't offer as following. It is meant as an independent assertion of bias. Perhaps it needs some justification language and citations and perhaps some elaboration of current realities, per the details you supplied. > "However the results of the systers experiment were not encouraging. > In spite of their engineering a disproportionately high > number of female candidates, not a single one was selected." > > It can be problematic if specific groups of people ran experiments such > as the above to test NomCom. No one claimed this was scientific. I also haven't heard any serious claims that the results with the experiment were worthy of being ignored. > The overtly aggressive style in the IETF is intimidating. This is where > a person has to decide whether to adopt the same style or walk away from > the IETF. It could be said that it does not pay to be nice. The > following was written in 2004: > > "Members of this affinity group tend to talk more freely to each other > and former members of the affinity group - this may be because the > affinity group has also come to share a cultural outlook which > matches the dominant cultural ethos of the IETF (North American, > English speaking). Newcomers to the organization and others outside > the affinity group are reluctant to challenge the apparent authority > of the extended affinity group during debates and consequently > influence remains concentrated in a relatively small group of people." Citation details? > A person, who is not from the dominant culture, would be very reluctant > to participate in the debates. That person could be given a label which > is humiliating. It is discouraging to see such behavior going > unchallenged. Yup. > Quoting from an article which was published today: Citation details? http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/when-it-meets-politics/2014/03/the-conspiracy-of-silence-over.html ? d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Thu Mar 6 02:35:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22D531A01C8 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:35:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y_VgPcmRun8e for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:34:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (asmtp2.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.249]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E37A1A0249 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:34:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s26AYr3b027710; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 10:34:53 GMT Received: from 950129200 (dhcp-b5b1.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.181.177]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s26AYm7X027591 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 6 Mar 2014 10:34:52 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 10:34:49 -0000 Message-ID: <09f601cf3927$b5f47b80$21dd7280$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac85J5rHo0ZOkl7QQficJ3zBuyxjKA== Content-language: en-gb Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/vfrCYA8CJttvPLFqyT-xu4CNnS0 Cc: Pete Resnick Subject: [Diversity] Anti-harassment policy X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 10:35:02 -0000 Hi, I would like to solicit continued debate of https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-farrresnickel-harassment/ The debate has mainly been happening on ietf@ietf.org and it may be more efficient to make sure that all of the discussion is in one place. The email that started the discussion is at https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=ietf&q=harass and includes some unresolved issues that need further debate. The authors would really like to receive input that we haven't already seen both about the issues we see as unresolved and about anything else that bothers you. (Supportive feedback will also be accepted :-) Thanks, Adrian From nobody Thu Mar 6 04:36:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D58A91A010E for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 04:36:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mplTrt1BQ20i for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 04:36:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yh0-x230.google.com (mail-yh0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c01::230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08AB01A0046 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 04:36:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yh0-f48.google.com with SMTP id z6so2518532yhz.35 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 04:36:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=0mp6UGMLY71ZVCWNCsI17wtPRmBdPyghlOnsdzHBr4c=; b=BhIsKI8C/JOBaQLjXPbrzNk/lP81sCpnTMrS1qWcRXYyJp+ojrViit40mBQ2zQvK3Q qPlwcvlYVC4BD3an5eoTmoxMZjtIWul5lC7O/oGgpN8AyGlciDObGi0t/N7Wf45yogbS PRZ3RGSzmJ+FgavDDgWzK/Haff57zEH8wmi1uGPJhNRf9J2EggIThGjkrCQ3YxCHd0IT onHPXDZJ47+1clkWIo1HjJBIjvxlK2NU6/Yw2d11MFc0AvajIVkguMimM37GKu7cOHvi /NuElEYdbcd2RV92N3GiWDL/fjww8AXXlyFhuu9N8JnB1IVxslJz42Mq+k0nENxTSGl6 y5NA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.17.34 with SMTP id i22mr2511814yhi.110.1394109389944; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 04:36:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.170.202.7 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 04:36:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <09f601cf3927$b5f47b80$21dd7280$@olddog.co.uk> References: <09f601cf3927$b5f47b80$21dd7280$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 13:36:29 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01634ef4f73eb604f3ef6291 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/VAqHLWmdGYpryCMGhHmNrsfwl_A Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , Pete Resnick Subject: [Diversity] Anti-harassment policy X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 12:36:37 -0000 --089e01634ef4f73eb604f3ef6291 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Adrian and Pete, I will try to be happy, funny and reasonable, to answer my concerns about diversity issues related to your draft. A lot things may bother me :-) however, I did not understand your input here, do you mean we discussed something in this list we should have done at the main IETF list. I started to dislike posting at IETF because it's not diverse. I prefer this diversity list mostly. I was told by one nice USA person yesterday that many USA participants don't know what is the meaning of diversity. So may be add the definition of it well help. Comments below, On Thursday, March 6, 2014, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Hi, > > I would like to solicit continued debate of > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-farrresnickel-harassment/ > > The debate has mainly been happening on ietf@ietf.org and it may be more > efficient to make sure that all of the discussion is in one place. > > The email that started the discussion is at > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=ietf&q=harass and > includes > some unresolved issues that need further debate. > > The authors would really like to receive input that we haven't already > seen both > about the issues we see as unresolved and about anything else that bothers > you. What bothers me are 1) the slowness of unresolved issues. 2) the cow boy style in few inputs from participants (we are not in a movie of Good Bad and Ugly), so may we shoot documents, we may shoot texts, we may shoot paragraphs, we may shoot processes, we MAY not shoot humans (i.e. Just because they are Indians, Africans, Women, Religious, Weak, non-expert, new-comers, etc.) 3) no one stops cow boy style, so are we in a BAD organisation or a COW BOY organisation. 4) Some don't respect others, and that is a BIG problem. The use of words in IETF as: hat, and shoot makes the thought of west movies which we all like to watch, but we do not like to live inside it. There are common sense issues that need solutions. What are the insensible points that need mor discuss to be solved? I think that may be all my points were not in the draft, so I wait. Overall, please define diversity in the draft. Then it can be discussed better related to diversity otherwise your draft has no diversity approach. Thanks that you (the authors) post the subject and draft here in our diversity list (IETF list is NOT diversity compatible). AB --089e01634ef4f73eb604f3ef6291 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Adrian and Pete,

I will try to be happy,=A0funny and = reasonable, to answer my concerns about diversity issues related to your dr= aft.=A0

A lot things may bother me :-) however, I di= d not understand your input here, do you mean we discussed something in thi= s list we should have done at the main IETF list.=A0

I started to dislike posting at IETF because it's not diverse.=A0I pref= er this diversity list mostly. I was told by one nice USA=A0person yesterda= y that many USA participants don't know what is the meaning of diversit= y. So may be add the definition of it well help.=A0Comments below,

On Thursday, March 6, 2014, Adrian Farrel wrote:
Hi,

I would like to solicit continued debate of
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-farrresnickel-ha= rassment/

The debate has mainly been happening on ietf@ietf.org and it may be = more
efficient to make sure that all of the discussion is in one place.

The email that started the discussion is at
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?ema= il_list=3Dietf&q=3Dharass and includes
some unresolved issues that need further debate.

The authors would really like to receive input that we haven't already = seen both
about the issues we see as unresolved and about anything else that bothers = you.

What bothers me=A0are 1) the slowness = of=A0unresolved issues. 2) the cow boy style in few inputs from participant= s (we are not in a movie of Good Bad and Ugly), so may=A0we shoot documents= , we may=A0shoot texts, we may=A0shoot paragraphs, we may=A0shoot processes= , we MAY not shoot humans (i.e. Just because they are Indians, Africans,=A0= =A0Women, Religious, Weak, non-expert, new-comers, etc.)

3) no one stops cow boy style, so are we in a BAD organ= isation or a=A0COW BOY=A0organisation.=A0

4) Some= =A0don't respect others, and that is a BIG problem.=A0

The use of words in IETF as: hat, and shoot makes the thought of west movie= s which we all like to watch, but we do=A0not like to live=A0inside it.=A0<= /div>

There are common sense=A0issues that need solution= s.=A0What are the=A0insensible=A0points that=A0need mor discus= s to be solved? I think that may be=A0all my points were not in the draft, = so I wait.=A0

Overall, please define diversity in the draft. Then it = can be discussed better related to diversity otherwise your draft has no di= versity approach.=A0

Thanks that you (the authors)=A0post=A0the subject and = draft=A0here in our diversity list (IETF list is NOT diversity compatible).= =A0
=A0
AB
--089e01634ef4f73eb604f3ef6291-- From nobody Thu Mar 6 05:28:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F00B1A0228 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 05:28:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OaLOThpxXGIg for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 05:28:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (asmtp2.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.249]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E47A1A02E2 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 05:28:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s26DRxJs005003; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 13:27:59 GMT Received: from 950129200 (dhcp-b5b1.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.181.177]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s26DRwP2004993 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 6 Mar 2014 13:27:59 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Abdussalam Baryun'" References: <09f601cf3927$b5f47b80$21dd7280$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 13:27:59 -0000 Message-ID: <0af401cf393f$e4e835e0$aeb8a1a0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJNujdOzoFhJqHpmK7qm/S7VZiVKgI9Y3cVmcUS55A= Content-language: en-gb Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/ck770df0jrQkzaBla7zGBZeWjMw Cc: diversity@ietf.org, 'Pete Resnick' Subject: Re: [Diversity] Anti-harassment policy X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 13:28:14 -0000 Hi Abdussalam, It was really good to actually meet you this week and to see the person = behind the emails. > I will try to be happy,=A0funny and reasonable, to answer my concerns = about=20 > diversity issues related to your draft.=A0 > > A lot things may bother me :-) however, I did not understand your = input > here, do you mean we discussed something in this list we should have > done at the main IETF list.=A0 > > I started to dislike posting at IETF because it's not diverse.=A0I = prefer this > diversity list mostly. I was told by one nice USA=A0person yesterday = that=20 > many USA participants don't know what is the meaning of diversity. So > may be add the definition of it well help.=A0Comments below, OK. It is generally more efficient to have all discussions of the same = concept in the same place so that everyone can join in.=20 However, I hear your point and understand your reasons. [snip] > What bothers me=A0are=20 > 1) the slowness of=A0unresolved issues. OK. I see how this can fit with the anti-harassment process.=20 We could set targets for investigation by the Ombudsperson. I am reluctant to set absolute deadlines because circumstances can vary, = but guidance is easy. Do you have suggestions for timelines? > 2) the cow boy style in few inputs from participants (we are not in a > movie of Good Bad and Ugly), so may=A0we shoot documents, we may > =A0shoot texts, we may=A0shoot paragraphs, we may=A0shoot processes, = we > MAY not shoot humans (i.e. Just because they are Indians, Africans,=A0 > Women, Religious, Weak, non-expert, new-comers, etc.) Yes. We all (you, me, them) need to learn to moderate and improve our communication styles. I don't think there is any action on this document from your comment. It = might be more related to Dave's document. > 3) no one stops cow boy style, so are we in a BAD organisation > or a=A0COW BOY=A0organisation.=A0 Interesting observation. I don't think we are a cowboy organisation or a bad organisation. We have some folk who act as cowboys (they might not actually be cowboys = :-)=20 I think we have some management issues that we need to work on. Advice on process for handling those issues would be valuable. That is = "make it stop" is understood, but how to do that is harder.=20 As Jari said the other night (and there was a comment from the floor) it = doesn't scale for the IETF chair or the IESG to respond to email beahviour in = real time. As with the previous point, I don't think there is any action on this = document from your comment. It might be more related to Dave's document. > 4) Some=A0don't respect others, and that is a BIG problem.=A0 Yes. I have this fault. I respect people's rights but not always the = people. I need to work on that, I guess. > The use of words in IETF as: hat, and shoot makes the thought of west > movies which we all like to watch, but we do=A0not like to = live=A0inside it.=A0 Yes. The use of language can carry connotations that were or were not = intended by the speaker. It is a remarkably rare communication skill to select = words that are sensitive to your audience. It is like speaking a foreign language = even for a native speaker. It is especially hard when the speaker is using a = phrase that is very deeply embedded in their culture and they are distracted by = their enthusiasm for the subject matter. As listeners, we also have a responsibility to be flexible and open. > There are common sense=A0issues that need solutions.=A0What are the >=A0insensible=A0points that=A0need mor discuss to be solved? I think = that > may be=A0all my points were not in the draft, so I wait.=A0 Don't wait! This is a discussion. Pursue your points and suggest text. But... Be aware of the specific scope of this document. It is about the = anti-harassment policy. It is not a general place to capture all related issues. If we = try to do that it seems unlikely to me that reaching speedy consensus and actually = getting an implementation of the anti-harassment policy will happen. Sometimes = it is better to break the problem space into separate pieces and work on them = in different documents. By this I mean that I am not rejecting your ideas, just suggesting to = put them in different places so as to make sure that this document is not = delayed. > Overall, please define diversity in the draft. Then it can be = discussed better > related to diversity otherwise your draft has no diversity = approach.=A0 Just as we are very cautious about defining "harassment" in this = document, I would be extremely worried about defining "diversity" in this document. = My reasoning is that it is quite possibly a deep rat-hole -- the = anti-harassment policy can operate well without these definitions. In essence, I expect = the Ombudsperson to be well aware of what constitutes harassment, but also = to consider it in the views of the Subject. However, it may be worth this group producing its own definition = "diversity" for publication. So, bottom line, I take an action from your point 1) only, and even for = that I would welcome some further input. Thanks, Adrian From nobody Thu Mar 6 07:58:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17D171A01F8 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 07:57:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LQd0u3-W0A76 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 07:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yk0-x22c.google.com (mail-yk0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 299941A00AE for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 07:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yk0-f172.google.com with SMTP id 200so7178729ykr.3 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 07:57:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=SJzy5ZRa5MmYY3tHzXtZ+fHUuXv4H0jC9oPSmJQE0Z0=; b=K3lTJUBWY+XPTqvT4DxqEJqFFJOvsSmCFrk6Q10YhR0OMKNTsscMUh7iTNVL7kKyYU uB145Q0e3u8ryi+nfvokCKFSPw14t24IOnA4MGYVfEqlw+A3ReQMjGhI+/4ApdYLTLyx cR/g+r6wZniRxo5tw5Jx3P4h15Ewrg5atrk8LCrSS92QvZ2fuEw7fd9fPtZ44cw4+0Od yThCgY3Na8GsVvbwyVOpneXBqyvXeKOxvXIKxBNPw5/76lX2bnGKw/G7YpvfCWPhuvef MMIBApcu3XEoHz+gNx93kuI4me+5LooGAjkFjn0rM3pkpPKbKDc++YAZ4Wfs/lYYMxsW AA7Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.89.11 with SMTP id b11mr16258162yhf.16.1394121472988; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 07:57:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.170.202.7 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 07:57:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <0af401cf393f$e4e835e0$aeb8a1a0$@olddog.co.uk> References: <09f601cf3927$b5f47b80$21dd7280$@olddog.co.uk> <0af401cf393f$e4e835e0$aeb8a1a0$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 16:57:52 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf300e56b72bdb8e04f3f23374 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/DDg_HAoI8hFsSywJshIC_o9jT8c Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Anti-harassment policy X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 15:57:59 -0000 --20cf300e56b72bdb8e04f3f23374 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Adrian, Thanks. Comments below, On Thursday, March 6, 2014, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Hi Abdussalam, > > It was really good to actually meet you this week and to see the person > behind > the emails. It was nice experience, I never done long remote chat then meet before, I only seen it in movies. An African PhD student studies in Wales and communicates remotely with IETF experts remotely for 2 years and then meets them in London. I actually think it is a great experience/story that needs documented as I-D, and if people like it, I will submit to IETF as historical. > > I will try to be happy, funny and reasonable, to answer my concerns about > > diversity issues related to your draft. > > > > A lot things may bother me :-) however, I did not understand your input > > here, do you mean we discussed something in this list we should have > > done at the main IETF list. > > > > I started to dislike posting at IETF because it's not diverse. I prefer > this > > diversity list mostly. I was told by one nice USA person yesterday that > > many USA participants don't know what is the meaning of diversity. So > > may be add the definition of it well help. Comments below, > > OK. It is generally more efficient to have all discussions of the same > concept > in the same place so that everyone can join in. Ok, I don't mind answering more of my thoughts as if you prefer in one place. So I will respond in IETF but not much discuss only with good people if I got motivated. Thanks Adrian for all you done for me, which were most important reason why I meet IETF. Also I don't forget to thank Karen for her encouraging, help and advises. AB --20cf300e56b72bdb8e04f3f23374 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Adrian,

Thanks. Comments below,

On Thursday, M= arch 6, 2014, Adrian Farrel wrote:
Hi Ab= dussalam,

It was really good to actually meet you this week and to see the person beh= ind
the emails.

It=A0=A0was nice experience, I = never done long remote chat then meet=A0before, I only seen it in movies. A= n African PhD student studies in Wales=A0and=A0communicates=A0remotely with= IETF experts=A0remotely for 2 years=A0and then meets=A0them in London.=A0I= actually think it is a great experience/story=A0that needs documented as I= -D,=A0and if=A0people like it, I=A0will submit to IETF as historical.=A0


> I will try to be happy,=A0funny and reasonable, to answer my concerns = about
> diversity issues related to your draft.=A0
>
> A lot things may bother me :-) however, I did not understand your inpu= t
> here, do you mean we discussed something in this list we should have > done at the main IETF list.=A0
>
> I started to dislike posting at IETF because it's not diverse.=A0I= prefer this
> diversity list mostly. I was told by one nice USA=A0person yesterday t= hat
> many USA participants don't know what is the meaning of diversity.= So
> may be add the definition of it well help.=A0Comments below,

OK. It is generally more efficient to have all discussions of the same conc= ept
in the same place so that everyone can join in.

=
Ok, I don't mind answering more of my thoughts as if you prefer in= one place.=A0So I will respond in IETF but not much discuss only with good= people if I got motivated.=A0

Thanks Adrian for all you done for me, which were most = important=A0reason why I meet IETF. Also I don't forget to thank=A0Kare= n for her encouraging,=A0help and advises.=A0

AB= =A0
--20cf300e56b72bdb8e04f3f23374-- From nobody Thu Mar 6 08:13:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04D791A00E3 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 08:13:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JS6bXDLU0UHo for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 08:13:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EAAB1A00B4 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 08:13:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s26GDYRv027250 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 6 Mar 2014 08:13:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1394122424; bh=1bwaqGhYPmORSr3DG+4kaAkdrHL1ipCXZZVj7X++QCs=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=bFgtxKatmbyrjtjWUM4PxTnGOu+v1qXLF5dKE3YuIm3Jp3XNRQWDenOLN67qCEFOu t2iwcbJqvJWpBqOV8EpVabumzym2bbivRiR3HUfDpTkpFLFE0i0iNLtSeeAHTc/OpO CUiST343AqQMiqTnrlTX8m9SbplojF1QfLELX7DM= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1394122424; i=@resistor.net; bh=1bwaqGhYPmORSr3DG+4kaAkdrHL1ipCXZZVj7X++QCs=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=lCnDsMfNvo35vM6FKKw5Z33ad+o5fE0mODHTaAe9iuCdm1D+G/d6xi4h1DVpBg1Zf Gg7Hkc/21+2lACgIWg5/t2UJQ2YXvu9By6ESPakG+atU2al/hcSUGOBXomwNFJlo/S 7AAWJ5wHKWx8wpgS6AZeoHfIZU1wDjeIlN6yplDQ= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20140306055636.0d5fd558@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 06:31:31 -0800 To: adrian@olddog.co.uk, From: SM In-Reply-To: <09f601cf3927$b5f47b80$21dd7280$@olddog.co.uk> References: <09f601cf3927$b5f47b80$21dd7280$@olddog.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/grd0cvaHiZOlfaJhVLBeUSdRRgg Cc: Pete Resnick Subject: Re: [Diversity] Anti-harassment policy X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 16:13:52 -0000 Hi Adrian, At 02:34 06-03-2014, Adrian Farrel wrote: >I would like to solicit continued debate of >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-farrresnickel-harassment/ > >The debate has mainly been happening on ietf@ietf.org and it may be more >efficient to make sure that all of the discussion is in one place. > >The email that started the discussion is at >https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=ietf&q=harass >and includes >some unresolved issues that need further debate. > >The authors would really like to receive input that we haven't >already seen both >about the issues we see as unresolved and about anything else that >bothers you. >(Supportive feedback will also be accepted :-) In Section 4: "Anyone who makes a good faith report of harassment or who cooperates with an investigation shall not be subject to retaliation for reporting, complaining or cooperating, even if the investigation, once completed, shows no harassment occurred." The following questions are not meant to be answered by the authors: Who determines whether the report was made in good faith? What happens if the person does not cooperate with the investigation? The (above) text prompts the reader to think about whether there can be retaliation. The reason to protect the person reporting the matter from retaliation is so that the problem does not go unnoticed. Would someone report: Person X is harassing Person Y? No [1]. It is up to the draft to turn that into a "Yes". One of the principles mentioned by the IETF is openness. The victim may believe that he or she is doing something wrong as nobody else encountered a similar problem. Openness is a way to encourage people to come forward. It is a way for (unrelated) people to see for themselves whether the system is fair. Regards, -sm 1. meddle - interfere in or busy oneself unduly with something that is not one's concern From nobody Thu Mar 6 08:13:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 953FD1A00B4 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 08:13:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id miMAmAKqhZ_y for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 08:13:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB2F1A00DE for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 08:13:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s26GDYRt027250 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 6 Mar 2014 08:13:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1394122420; bh=5rIgKm8ArZn9u03JExP8YxNx8/yaU331zlIlpjrdE4I=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=W55abDl8HIb6NGjy9InoWoS3hfA+S49tpraII4KC0HnA0EUHn+eNr8HqB6es3JpAF A3BbDTNL6+eG5WeNyTzNmfMEweDH9No8HeYccUJ6bjGlA1K9eDZGq+d36FN6RvH8ae zsMPavy1XZqV2JImxlCcjOsTsb7/kDGd2ztKcYgc= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1394122420; i=@resistor.net; bh=5rIgKm8ArZn9u03JExP8YxNx8/yaU331zlIlpjrdE4I=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=kqDNW5OIveZodOh7ubeiSZvAd3Th2wtLR8gDRkW2Y+08nM5HwnSRxdigHnI/Q50mQ fSP1hRGONwHanhGFtGywZKZKb1lYZMs+z457aUpcTeI8y0i4WkYPk4z81hnhX1oa72 RMlcZoXtPfsKoaOxg+m92hi2ckmTqKJgc7ky1Xqg= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20140306053428.0d5a4438@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 05:54:33 -0800 To: Abdussalam Baryun From: SM In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20140305134027.0d8d0970@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20140305235343.0ca78b00@resistor.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/ecao0SCN11PWhQfh-_Uq_GemjJM Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Comments on draft-crocker-diversity-conduct-00 X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 16:13:52 -0000 Hi Abdussalam, At 01:57 06-03-2014, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: >It is interesting discussing with you, hope to get reply from Dave, >I tried to meet him and you but no much time I had available in the >IETF meeting it was only one day for me. However, hopefully in >future we meet in next IETF meetings. Comments below, I am not in London. Hopefully, we might meet in future. >Disagree, it is very possible easy to know causes, if happens and if >still did not happen. If we are smart organisation or smart managers >or smart chairs or smart directors, we don't wait until bad things >happen. We act before things happen and we know where things will go >in future by looking at what is happening and the causes. Therefore >we prevent the bad and encourage the good, we don't look for money >and shoot like the film movie mentioned above (we should look for >good technologies, best practices, and good progress, and never >shoot who disagree). Following the IETF does not provide a good view of the internet. There are many forums where internet-related issues are discussed. There is a wide range of economic, political, social, etc. interests. It is nearly impossible to keep track the different opinions. Regards, -sm From nobody Thu Mar 6 08:14:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D2441A00B4 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 08:14:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WS7_fdbAhorc for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 08:14:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ACF61A00DD for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 08:14:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s26GDYRx027250 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 6 Mar 2014 08:13:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1394122429; bh=eAyGeosFzYQNvdio+etXkreeIlch3PHS9+LrfRw5FcE=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=IWj1U7BGkRoDN1CPGvb7vPZxIpEWxIWNfmoyXDRbwVUymtTuTInFuby0miyl+IfK9 np8OeK3OfTemAK4e87V84iPtOriklM1gJfXsAxrv55QurK8InMHdm/xTpW3bkQ+KWv KGDShntoBDHKl0c56kVfoT5z/Xn+O9x3WzmUNkug= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1394122429; i=@resistor.net; bh=eAyGeosFzYQNvdio+etXkreeIlch3PHS9+LrfRw5FcE=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=1Q+IuQrlhOnOC9sJ2p/P//Z3i/qYvCmjXx7qMef7r/2S9mBoHShUzrA4tfClzaRWi bGG8NrX8EZBRMtwv4rUT1KVtLpfJGXfKvGfTHkz3A51SJcMexAdWOATUY10ICBTrHS YIpJmob+PoAwBxc9RvtbHnJs2mYoPN/ZkS4lTCBg= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20140306064446.0b57c1e8@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 08:11:06 -0800 To: Dave Crocker , Narelle Clark From: SM In-Reply-To: <53184665.4010501@bbiw.net> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20140305134027.0d8d0970@elandnews.com> <53184665.4010501@bbiw.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/m_N1QNIIsQDVyIc-jKQ4bTRU80c Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Comments on draft-crocker-diversity-conduct-00 X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 16:14:05 -0000 Hi Dave, This comment may be unrelated to the topic. "The key issue I think is this that we've got an adversarial system and that means that the prosecution must put up its best case and the defence then challenge that robustly," I vaguely recall that you commented about that something along those lines some time back. I don't recall the context. In an adversarial system discussions can take a wrong turn, e.g. turn personal, become antagonistic, etc. On the positive side, the system can help bring out the better outcome or improve the technical quality of the work. At 01:56 06-03-2014, Dave Crocker wrote: >1. We can't know whether they understand or not. > >2. It doesn't matter whether they understand. In either case the >behavior is problematic. Yes. >I don't think it's controversial, though of course it is >uncomfortable by virtue of the nature of the topic. I'll put it differently: bring the issues into the open, manage it, and choose an alternative. The problem with an uncomfortable topic is that it is not always well-managed. >It's making a statistical assertion about demographic >characteristics of the original community. > >While there were sprinklings of woman, europeans, and >non-caucasians, each was in very short supply. Yes. In my opinion there isn't a sustained effort to reach out to potential contributors. >No it doesn't follow and it isn't offer as following. It is meant >as an independent assertion of bias. Perhaps it needs some >justification language and citations and perhaps some elaboration of >current realities, per the details you supplied. Ok. >Citation details? That would be RFC 3774. >Citation details? > >http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/when-it-meets-politics/2014/03/the-conspiracy-of-silence-over.html >? That was the article. Regards, -sm From nobody Thu Mar 6 09:06:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E2C11A00D3 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 09:06:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rV_eoXw1LpL2 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 09:06:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C74761A0040 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 09:06:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [31.133.178.219] (dhcp-b2db.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.178.219]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s26H60lf010634 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 6 Mar 2014 09:06:05 -0800 Message-ID: <5318AAB6.6050001@dcrocker.net> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 17:04:54 +0000 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SM , Narelle Clark References: <6.2.5.6.2.20140305134027.0d8d0970@elandnews.com> <53184665.4010501@bbiw.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20140306064446.0b57c1e8@resistor.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20140306064446.0b57c1e8@resistor.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Thu, 06 Mar 2014 09:06:06 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/n2_h3Odm_4PfM3k2r6EMxMCUVW8 Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Comments on draft-crocker-diversity-conduct-00 X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 17:06:11 -0000 On 3/6/2014 4:11 PM, SM wrote: > Hi Dave, > > This comment may be unrelated to the topic. > > "The key issue I think is this that we've got an adversarial system > and that > means that the prosecution must put up its best case and the defence > then > challenge that robustly," > > I vaguely recall that you commented about that something along those > lines some time back. I don't recall the context. In an adversarial > system discussions can take a wrong turn, e.g. turn personal, become > antagonistic, etc. On the positive side, the system can help bring out > the better outcome or improve the technical quality of the work. We have competing goals, competing understandings of capabilities and limitations, and competing proposals. Each of these competitions is inherent. So I do not believe we can avoid a fundamentally adversarial framework, for any "interesting" situation. The question is whether participants treat the competition as a basis for healthy debate -- where the ultimate goal is the best result for the community -- or whether they focus on the politics of winning. > I'll put it differently: bring the issues into the open, manage it, and > choose an alternative. The problem with an uncomfortable topic is that > it is not always well-managed. That implies that we reliably have good management for /comfortable/ topics... (smiley) d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Thu Mar 6 21:51:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1928F1A01F2 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 21:51:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aF5PQmDp59Lg for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 21:51:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E129D1A01F1 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 21:51:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s275oqmM010940 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 6 Mar 2014 21:50:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1394171459; bh=vUmeQW7qc4KJIbI2aluQzKq4F2sHW87WkpNKnuJGlik=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=Ljapypi2h51NpeyRFgJP+d9U2ZU3FAb6rwsYgPlNNrgloPZKogoJHoAcFYBsw76KD D2PSdtftAixZVEPbdgNAoTRhBAp3yeKuFchr2+xB29iVkvOOvBNqNc1yPlTaTzllGi m1+alYPumo6EPZXmyoY4R3V/b7ANN78oE3KUNMF0= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1394171459; i=@resistor.net; bh=vUmeQW7qc4KJIbI2aluQzKq4F2sHW87WkpNKnuJGlik=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=MhBcuMCeGMwg15UOfpkDUyFPVmsKyPYEIo8aCnJ1f5JCkCg314ulO1ngiyrvQ/pa5 HR50WvVjO6TvNrnYJz+3D9rYM6BOjPGbW2asXur1X29tqHvcoApVEzCDsnsZPS5LID Grj2FZOxfxd6Uvt3cNoPAOBO9tu5rCkdzzvk2Q+U= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20140306202408.0c79ab88@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 21:43:03 -0800 To: Abdussalam Baryun From: SM In-Reply-To: References: <09f601cf3927$b5f47b80$21dd7280$@olddog.co.uk> <0af401cf393f$e4e835e0$aeb8a1a0$@olddog.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/r1TnMhCjRHokjV_Emfgd-3lV5I8 Cc: diversity@ietf.org, adrian@olddog.co.uk Subject: [Diversity] A nice experience (was: Anti-harassment policy) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 05:51:10 -0000 Hi Abdussalam, At 07:57 06-03-2014, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: >It was nice experience, I never done long remote chat then meet >before, I only seen it in movies. An African PhD student studies in >Wales and communicates remotely with IETF experts remotely for 2 >years and then meets them in London. I actually think it is a great >experience/story that needs documented as I-D, and if people like >it, I will submit to IETF as historical. Speaking for myself, I find the above interesting. I did not pay attention to what is written above when I first read the message. It is mentioned that you are in Wales and that you are a PhD student. I would assume it is not a problem to have a conversation in English [1]. About a year ago, I posted two messages: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/edu-discuss/current/msg00260.html http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/edu-discuss/current/msg00261.html The two persons did not reply to the messages. I am curious about the story. Everyone has a story. Unfortunately, we [2] do not take the time to listen to the story. I would advise you against posting the experience/story as an Internet-Draft. I will not tell you why as that is something for you to discover. :-) Regards, -sm 1. There is the IELTS requirement. 2. It does not mean that the readers of this mailing list share my view. From nobody Thu Mar 6 23:38:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 106761A01FB for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 23:38:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KpMZDYaf6PLl for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 23:38:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yh0-x22a.google.com (mail-yh0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c01::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF1891A023A for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 23:38:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yh0-f42.google.com with SMTP id a41so3870136yho.15 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 23:38:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=HNCMwUa3tuv7yJlCHPH2OQ2Q7Ql2rCBdqs1g1lrx/58=; b=0zeBEr+NJpJnf3nrbP+XZDQ/KyMjWxmPQxuVe1EpGUAJrVVgRRYMWWoWbFo9ZR/1KR sELTmX3FzpKPuynLuJRKdqqA/o7p/d8NiSfiKjUyZQkQyTBuXLe3GCujm/ReWqCJ0BCG FyxOd3XzLIEjoFcU1RyoqkwSyz//Rh15viNl1HSuAkdkYCLR06m5P7Md3qOI9tOS4o5X ew147n0/Vm5tn+YkUgIKyUloC9GxqdhFlPnpSCmIy+yXWHMN6gFLHrL0L18pbOXQAXwp GIuYXMhl6lo6BRIU0JQOzf2Qb/5LXgaFdsp7sDpGcpzD6k+Vxhd7C0YGGM7WceYZkmA1 5Oxw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.93.208 with SMTP id l56mr217042yhf.112.1394177887329; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 23:38:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.170.202.7 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 23:38:07 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20140306202408.0c79ab88@resistor.net> References: <09f601cf3927$b5f47b80$21dd7280$@olddog.co.uk> <0af401cf393f$e4e835e0$aeb8a1a0$@olddog.co.uk> <6.2.5.6.2.20140306202408.0c79ab88@resistor.net> Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 08:38:07 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: SM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3010ead1bbe38404f3ff5533 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/t5UEjeFIh_311tnWteu6P2d0G8M Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , "adrian@olddog.co.uk" Subject: Re: [Diversity] A nice experience (was: Anti-harassment policy) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 07:38:16 -0000 --20cf3010ead1bbe38404f3ff5533 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi SM I don't know your real name but I did reply, and I did not meet you but did reply :-) There are nice experience, ugly experience, bad experience, story experience and hidden experience. We want diversity nice/ugly experience to make all future experiences nice. The real name of the persons does not matter, it is the story that matters. So that is why I said African student, not a named person, the name said in that I-D can be Abraham. It should be a real story which makes development to IETF participants future. Usually some people don't talk about their experiences. Even IETF participants don't do that. However some don't respond to messages for many reasons we may not know why. IMHO if there are experiences/experiments related to IETF that we can get progress from it, then those experiences should be published, or announced in IETF. So my thoughts were how I-D can help IETF progress not help any reader. Usually that story was for newcomers to like reading. So it is a newcomer or newbird or newbee story that make guidance and show IETF reflection, what was wrong with IETF and how leaders are fixing it in relation to that story. That story proposals for historical I-Ds will help Dave's work on conduct, help diversity progress, and add to newcomer tutorials. I proposed a new African student IETF story, I would like to read the story of new European women IETF story, and new Asian student IETF story, and others similar. That makes more diversity. It is not good watching/reading of western movie stories or watching two participants shooting which will make IETFers become more like cow boys :-) Comments below, AB On Friday, March 7, 2014, SM wrote: > Hi Abdussalam, > At 07:57 06-03-2014, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: > >> It was nice experience, I never done long remote chat then meet before, >> I only seen it in movies. An African PhD student studies in Wales and >> communicates remotely with IETF experts remotely for 2 years and then meets >> them in London. I actually think it is a great experience/story that needs >> documented as I-D, and if people like it, I will submit to IETF as >> historical. >> > > Speaking for myself, I find the above interesting. I did not pay > attention to what is written above when I first read the message. It is > mentioned that you are in Wales and that you are a PhD student. I would > assume it is not a problem to have a conversation in English [1]. I have conversation in many languages. It happens in IETF that many conversation are not English. Diversity even in languages. > About a year ago, I posted two messages: > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/edu-discuss/current/msg00260.html > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/edu-discuss/current/msg00261.html > > The two persons did not reply to the messages. I am curious about the > story. Everyone has a story. The story is a story only if the two persons meet. So did you meet those persons. I am never interested of reading a story of just messages but I want thoughts and interaction and understanding and analysis. For example, I don't get replies from Dave also but you get replies from him, the reasons are with Dave. I got once a private message from one IETF guy and he told me why he does not post replies to me, so I got that experience. > Unfortunately, we [2] do not take the time to listen to the story. I > would advise you against posting the experience/story as an Internet-Draft. > I will not tell you why as that is something for you to discover. :-) Many in life volunteer their experience for better and best practices. I don't know what you mean by you advise. However, you may misunderstood the aim and objectives of any story posted to IETF. The main principle is to develop IETF. Each organisation has a R&D department. The story does not subject persons it subjects the facts, history, development, experience to help change and develop others. AB > > Regards, > -sm > > 1. There is the IELTS requirement. > 2. It does not mean that the readers of this mailing list share my view. > > --20cf3010ead1bbe38404f3ff5533 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi SM

I don't know your real=A0name but I= did reply, and I did not meet you but did reply :-)

There are nice experience, ugly experience, bad experience, story experi= ence=A0and hidden experience. We want diversity nice/ugly=A0experience to m= ake all future=A0experiences nice.=A0The real name of the persons does not = matter, it is the story that matters.=A0=A0So that is why I said African st= udent, not a named person, the name said in that I-D=A0can be Abraham. It s= hould be a real story which makes development to IETF participants future.= =A0

Usually some people don't talk about their experiences. = Even IETF participants don't do that. However some don't respond to= messages for many reasons we may not know why. IMHO=A0if=A0there are=A0exp= eriences/experiments=A0related to IETF that we can get progress from it, th= en those experiences should be published, or announced in IETF.=A0

So my thoughts were how I-D can help IETF progress=A0not hel= p any reader. Usually that story was for newcomers to like reading. So it i= s a newcomer or newbird or newbee=A0story that make guidance and show IETF = reflection, what was wrong with IETF and how leaders are fixing it in relat= ion to that story.=A0

That story proposals for historical I-Ds will help Dave= 's work on conduct, help diversity progress,=A0and add to=A0newcomer tu= torials. I proposed=A0a new African student IETF=A0story, I would like to r= ead=A0the story of new European=A0women IETF=A0story, and new Asian student= IETF=A0story, and others similar. That makes more diversity. It is not goo= d=A0watching/reading=A0of western movie stories or watching two participant= s shooting=A0which will=A0make IETFers=A0become more like=A0cow boys=A0:-)<= br>

Comments below,=A0

AB

On Friday, March 7, 2014, SM wrote:
It =A0was nice experience, I never done long remote chat then meet before, = I only seen it in movies. An African PhD student studies in Wales and commu= nicates remotely with IETF experts remotely for 2 years and then meets them= in London. I actually think it is a great experience/story that needs docu= mented as I-D, and if people like it, I will submit to IETF as historical.<= br>

Speaking for myself, I find the above interesting. =A0I did not pay attenti= on to what is written above when I first read the message. =A0It is mention= ed that you are in Wales and that you are a PhD student. =A0I would assume = it is not a problem to have a conversation in English [1].

I have conversation in many languages. It happens in IE= TF that many conversation are not English. Diversity even in languages.=A0= =A0


About a year ago, I posted two messages:

http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/edu-d= iscuss/current/msg00260.html
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/edu-d= iscuss/current/msg00261.html

The two persons did not reply to the messages. =A0I am curious about the st= ory. =A0Everyone has a story.=A0

=A0The story is a story only if the two persons meet. S= o did you meet those persons. I am never interested of reading a story of j= ust messages but I want thoughts and interaction and understanding and anal= ysis.=A0

For example,=A0I don't get replies from Dave also b= ut you get=A0replies from him,=A0the reasons are with Dave. I got once a pr= ivate=A0message from one IETF=A0guy and he told me why he does not post rep= lies to me, so I got that=A0experience.
=A0
=A0Unfortunately, we [2]= do not take the time to listen to the story. =A0I would advise you against= posting the experience/story as an Internet-Draft. =A0I will not tell you = why as that is something for you to discover. :-)

Many in life volunteer their experience for better and = best practices. I=A0don't know what you mean by you advise.=A0However, = you may misunderstood the aim and objectives of any story posted to IETF. T= he main principle is to develop IETF. Each organisation has a R&D depar= tment.=A0The story does not subject persons it subjects the facts, history,= development, experience to help change and develop others.=A0

AB
=A0

Regards,
-sm

1. There is the IELTS requirement.
2. It does not mean that the readers of this mailing list share my view.
--20cf3010ead1bbe38404f3ff5533-- From nobody Fri Mar 7 01:09:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADE1D1A016A for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 01:09:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7O_AZ18AlrFp for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 01:09:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33DFD1A010B for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 01:09:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s2799IUp001846 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 7 Mar 2014 01:09:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1394183364; bh=NIxSa9uCVtUpFHFA/N/eI0D4F7rFnXy76Gp3LbWeaJ8=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=mOnWsqBsdsmgKeVTzU4X6bG/IWILTpM8U+O8Yoljp7QgXo2zSBrYFxDZlFr20/Ql3 2edAgsPNIpVmOx4MXxJY4MaJ6eT93Vh6Gz+EJZy8KihItCvOALyUhfSzTNF9iJYjoE GWDbFvZQXfiIXElddHgbthA/OKHwU/ng19QzARvA= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1394183364; i=@resistor.net; bh=NIxSa9uCVtUpFHFA/N/eI0D4F7rFnXy76Gp3LbWeaJ8=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=326xXF1de69T2kBM0iXLipQVRWF1tVtzHRCQ5y1t6vXimupcMuH2ChRm53oYXBC49 vALyvwbc6AjGafq4/4IcnSOB7ZKaL5zSYx5oU+HYqvQxAtY43khrOJmU6R7FUbpIkW qvvkjJeLMVwLhBz13adau67jFAZDWcd4VFLVdIVw= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20140307000924.0bfe0d70@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 00:54:30 -0800 To: Abdussalam Baryun From: SM In-Reply-To: References: <09f601cf3927$b5f47b80$21dd7280$@olddog.co.uk> <0af401cf393f$e4e835e0$aeb8a1a0$@olddog.co.uk> <6.2.5.6.2.20140306202408.0c79ab88@resistor.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/sU0GQmdBIe5_nCsD0MQKfaXJsJo Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] A nice experience (was: Anti-harassment policy) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 09:09:38 -0000 Hi Abdussalam, At 23:38 06-03-2014, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: >I don't know your real name but I did reply, and I did not meet you >but did reply :-) I did notice the first part of the sentence. :-) I wasn't at the meeting or else we would have met. >That story proposals for historical I-Ds will help Dave's work on >conduct, help diversity progress, and add to newcomer tutorials. I >proposed a new African student IETF story, I would like to read the >story of new European women IETF story, and new Asian student IETF >story, and others similar. That makes more diversity. It is not There is an article at http://micadeyeye.ngportal.com/index.php/2014/03/05/getting-more-out-of-the-ietf-for-africans/ > The story is a story only if the two persons meet. So did you meet > those persons. I am never interested of reading a story of just > messages but I want thoughts and interaction and understanding and analysis. I may have met one of them. My answer would be "no" as I am not sure. Regards, -sm From nobody Fri Mar 7 01:10:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEEFA1A016A for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 01:10:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TXzqCLcl973E for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 01:10:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yh0-x22c.google.com (mail-yh0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c01::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A264B1A010B for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 01:10:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yh0-f44.google.com with SMTP id f73so3945751yha.31 for ; Fri, 07 Mar 2014 01:10:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=U4Aa+4FFK9EUUCqaDnHRQbpstXKW/2z9hGA3cga6TqM=; b=Hp8dDU/U59lYoVnfTKBfyQxxMhZCs9J1L5qgMLoYushUIQTYIB43uTO1MW9+ehTBUk 9BVTg8R6ZJxTz4MOQlEQ5JjsZziwlUuuHemjLWrfFZEN2/2snGM+6rf0Ot0V/ZvnT2/v vrH4Ri1vHt78PDHpyk5XjYYwwGS+AfWBaIURDkrrKBNJvOi9KoybUH4p1gMPQsB0VjCM hKRjXPs1Z6dIMTDba5R7YBKDPI3zy1xcL9FICpLX7czJ3rYy5oBdltYeCJjvb3IMQLiR HgR5wX/q0ZL1jhnVIo1QKScdTX/40/9bWZ7mg48JIHQ2zB8tG1JQ394DYHjDHGxd6FmF m/EA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.94.243 with SMTP id n79mr21189320yhf.46.1394183432394; Fri, 07 Mar 2014 01:10:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.170.202.7 with HTTP; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 01:10:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <09f601cf3927$b5f47b80$21dd7280$@olddog.co.uk> <0af401cf393f$e4e835e0$aeb8a1a0$@olddog.co.uk> <6.2.5.6.2.20140306202408.0c79ab88@resistor.net> Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 10:10:32 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: SM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3011d8773d5c4c04f400a045 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/JPtJkxjspru2fUhratSm3jjZW5U Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , "adrian@olddog.co.uk" Subject: Re: [Diversity] A nice experience (was: Anti-harassment policy) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 09:10:38 -0000 --20cf3011d8773d5c4c04f400a045 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Friday, March 7, 2014, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: > > There are nice experience, ugly experience, bad experience, story > experience and hidden experience. We want diversity nice/ugly experience to > make all future experiences nice. > Sorry, meant to say: we want to know about diversity nice/ugly experience to make guidance to IETF future with all experiences becoming nice. AB --20cf3011d8773d5c4c04f400a045 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Friday, March 7, 2014, Abdussalam Baryun wrote:

There are nice experience, ugly experience, bad= experience, story experience=A0and hidden experience. We want diversity ni= ce/ugly=A0experience to make all future=A0experiences nice.=A0

Sorry, meant to say: we want to know about= diversity=A0nice/ugly experience=A0=A0to make guidance to IETF=A0future wi= th all experiences becoming nice.=A0

AB
--20cf3011d8773d5c4c04f400a045-- From nobody Sat Mar 8 11:25:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF79F1A02B0 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2014 11:25:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nWdnNxWifqvs for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2014 11:25:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yh0-x229.google.com (mail-yh0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c01::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A8B1A02BB for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2014 11:25:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yh0-f41.google.com with SMTP id v1so1028669yhn.14 for ; Sat, 08 Mar 2014 11:25:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=SWnp9YbT3XzwjpmbLOcndJMZaIPZX0MM2Pb0exqz3/g=; b=SoAAHb/4XbU06C3sc8vahiODYp4tHnEDa+hn8fBM5no/xWHjNokbk+HK/jeJ6uXKiP 4zCdLveqAz86CciP2PI01V4n8PbfG/P5bg5Fu5afyBfsIfGTTjYdpIyUn853oS4MOPQf Nz+TGA2Ayu48NHWlJdFJhb4IPOvG3SqYtp0/GE07Y5oXH9ZPXJXqADtLRfeX7yfQON9W DBxZpB5PBegGKOzGp1mAN4K/67akgI1lHdr4Q9NhSVchuPuOnHMfy1JXL6fh0+DPqkUY Ts9oeJtfX4QJjveEy+fQH55olKF5gRT7TYv3wtDXIKhGyEc3ov6oBgvs5gx0BKXFkrBH QPlw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.28.34 with SMTP id f22mr20715yha.122.1394306742492; Sat, 08 Mar 2014 11:25:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.170.202.7 with HTTP; Sat, 8 Mar 2014 11:25:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 19:25:42 +0000 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: "diversity@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013cb794181ffc04f41d569f Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/EVj9yImFeTVAg4HN9JUkLN4mres Subject: [Diversity] Is there Diversity progress in IETF list or there is anti-Diversity X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 19:25:51 -0000 --089e013cb794181ffc04f41d569f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Dear DT and All diversity believers, This message is to reply and Just to make a comment/conclusion/analysis after reviewing the IETF mail list. There is no freedom of speech in IETF list while few people using their English language and their reputation to harass one person that still has not much reputation (i.e. newcomer from Africa). I think using bad words to describe humans or persons in an irrespective message or text is not helpful/encouraging discussions for humans from Africa, Europe, Asia, and South America, etc. The prophet Mohamed has taught us to help people become good/better and to forgive each other. Also Jesus, Mouses, and Ebrahem taught humans that. I pray to Allah to help those people who need guidance to know how to use good words instead of bad words in discussions. The IETF MUST solve its problems with diversity and harassment. IETF MUST teach its harassing persons that many humans in the world are watching IETF and analysing it, and analysing those persons. It is very bad by any organisation to leave its participant drive the organisation away from its vision and objectives. Could people trust that IETF is maintaining its principles at all times and places which it makes meetings or discussions at. My comments made as (AB) into one human's below message. AB ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: *Loa Andersson* Date: Saturday, March 8, 2014 Subject: Re: AB's comments on April Fools RFCs (was Call for Review of draft-iab-styleguide-01.txt, "RFC Style Guide") To: Randy Bush >, IETF Chair > Cc: IETF Disgust > Jari, Not speaking of the current case, but I don't not fully agree with you. We both know that over the years we have seen trolls on our mailing lists (troll = someone that repeatedly and repetitively causes useless discussions on topics that even with the wildest stretch can't be said to belong on an IETF mailing list). AB) in America troll means; something bad and is different than that what the above defined. I think we should be allowed to call a troll a troll! Most of the time it is just best to ignore them, but we have seen cases where removing posting rights has been the only effective way to handle this. AB) you are not allowed to call humans bad words. Otherwise you become anti-diversity, and harassing a human in your organisation. Randy, I think you correctly describe a problem below. Well intended disruptive (or at least non-productive) postings are still disruptive/non- productive. And I think the right method is not to respond, and encourage others not to do it. AB) the correct way is to work together and forgive each other. /Loa On 2014-03-07 16:58, Randy Bush wrote: > jari: > > As we discussed in the IESG open mic session at the plenary last >> night, it's not appropriate to call people trolls, or anything else. >> If you think someone's comments are not helpful, address that. It's >> not appropriate to argue the person behind the comment. >> > > point taken and apologies. my posting was ad hominem. AB) you should apologies to the one you insulted not only to community. > > but i think we have a problem where a poster is *repeatedly* causing > massive useless discussion which overwhelms the useful content of the > list. Your wrong, all discussions are useful. > as their postings are probably well intended, asking to censor > them would be harsh. Just we should do our job in IETF. We are not in a football club it's engineering IETF. > asking folk not to be drawn into the response > cycle is not simple. It is simple, when we know that we should respect each other and as people read our messages we should give them right to post as long as those messages are respectful. > > randy > > -- Loa Andersson email: loa@mail01.huawei.com Senior MPLS Expert loa@pi.nu Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 --089e013cb794181ffc04f41d569f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear DT=A0and All diversity believers,

This message is t= o reply and=A0Just to make a comment/conclusion/analysis=A0after reviewing = the IETF mail list. There is no freedom of speech in IETF list while few pe= ople using their=A0English language and their reputation=A0to harass one pe= rson that still has not much reputation (i.e.=A0newcomer from Africa).=A0

I=A0think using bad=A0words to describe humans or perso= ns in an=A0irrespective message or text is not helpful/encouraging discussi= ons=A0for humans=A0from Africa, Europe, Asia, and=A0South America, etc.=A0<= /div>

The prophet Mohamed has taught us to help people become good= /better=A0and to forgive each other. Also Jesus, Mouses, and Ebrahem taught= humans that. I pray to Allah to help those people who need guidance to kno= w how to use good words instead of bad words in discussions.=A0

The IETF MUST solve its problems with diversity and har= assment.=A0IETF MUST teach its=A0harassing persons that many humans in the = world=A0are watching IETF and analysing it, and analysing those persons. It= is very bad by any organisation to leave its participant drive the organis= ation away from its vision and objectives. Could people trust that IETF is = maintaining its principles at all times and places which=A0it makes meeting= s or discussions at.=A0

My comments made as (AB)=A0into=A0one human's below= message.=A0

AB

---------- Forwarded messag= e ----------
From: Loa Andersson
Date: Saturday, March 8, 201= 4
Subject: Re: AB's comments on April Fools RFCs (was Call for Review of = draft-iab-styleguide-01.txt, "RFC Style Guide")
To: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>, IETF Chair <<= a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','chair@ietf.org');" t= arget=3D"_blank">chair@ietf.org>
Cc: IETF Disgust <ietf@ietf.org>


Jari,

Not speaking of the current case, but I don't not fully agree with you.=

We both know that over the years we have seen trolls on our mailing
lists (troll =3D someone that repeatedly and repetitively causes useless discussions on topics that even with the wildest stretch can't be said<= br> to belong on an IETF mailing list).

AB) in America= =A0troll means; something bad and is=A0different than=A0that what the above= defined.=A0

I think we should be allowed to call a troll a troll! Most of the time
it is just best to ignore them, but we have seen cases where removing
posting rights has been the only effective way to handle this.
AB) you are not allowed to call humans bad words. Otherwise yo= u become anti-diversity, and harassing a human in your organisation.=A0


Randy,

I think you correctly describe a problem below. Well intended disruptive (or at least non-productive) postings are still disruptive/non-
productive. And I think the right method is not to respond, and
encourage others not to do it.

AB) the correct way= is to work together and forgive each other.=A0

/Loa

On 2014-03-07 16:58, Randy Bush wrote:
jari:

As we discussed in the IESG open mic session at the plenary last
night, it's not appropriate to call people trolls, or anything else. If you think someone's comments are not helpful, address that. It's=
not appropriate to argue the person behind the comment.

point taken and apologies. =A0my posting was ad hominem.
<= br>
AB) you should apologies to the one you insulted not only to = community.=A0
=A0

but i think we have a problem where a poster is *repeatedly* causing
massive useless discussion which overwhelms the useful content of the
list. =A0

=
Your wrong, all discussions are useful.=A0
=A0
as their postings are probably well intended, asking to censor
them would be harsh.=A0

Just we should=A0do our=A0job in IETF. We are not = in a football club it's engineering IETF.=A0
=A0
=A0asking folk not to be drawn= into the response
cycle is not simple.

It is simple, when we = know that we should respect each other and as people read our messages we s= hould give them right to post as long as those messages are respectful.=A0<= /div>
=A0

randy


--


Loa Andersson =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0email: loa@= mail01.huawei.com
Senior MPLS Expert =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0lo= a@pi.nu
Huawei Technologies (consultant) =A0 =A0 phone: +46 739 81 21 64


--089e013cb794181ffc04f41d569f-- From nobody Sat Mar 8 12:16:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F41E71A02E1 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2014 12:16:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PDix-BE852An for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2014 12:16:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yk0-x22a.google.com (mail-yk0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB1E61A02DE for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2014 12:16:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yk0-f170.google.com with SMTP id 9so14778424ykp.1 for ; Sat, 08 Mar 2014 12:16:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=7eVVR9J3eBZZwIE1lzlaaiBHXnuck+deivfpElFmdGM=; b=vnthMikyg9+T9gcCUNtGfbefw8hinkpRBUpsVvVsvnKvBip6IyO0OXZRS9haGam8VR GZk2nG/wxZb+oucLo6gxOdC2iMwYVN76ii4kqDJGUrD5jvk0rLgpiQpVcEt8+40gAP1/ rcixQ60pUHWcFMUxI+pcvjGIVvbBCrthSwxM0WnjTNKy369T1dDlimSw+7qC4H6LBXUB 1ZamYkxXg3XAAp5CD4zxjuz2HEhowykGhKqfXHajgsqragGyKjjgn5rrzfP0BCIcd/Ub aOEltNJMSP7OOTNgHxzkSkl+h5+F7Yiyera7DelCMAHRnsVZHdM1z/A6OMo1kNIlc4YE vsIw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.46.18 with SMTP id q18mr32087380yhb.21.1394309771118; Sat, 08 Mar 2014 12:16:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.170.202.7 with HTTP; Sat, 8 Mar 2014 12:16:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 20:16:11 +0000 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: "diversity@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1cf5a9d4c8004f41e0a3e Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/RAgSe7DRrnECWFYfkqKmtUhlLDg Subject: [Diversity] Native English speaker, English language, and English organisation X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 20:16:18 -0000 --001a11c1cf5a9d4c8004f41e0a3e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi all, There is subject running in IETF discussion list as: IETF working language (started today), does IETF select English language for work so that it can insult who don't use it in one method. The majority will formulate the language of IETF, I believe some day the discussion language will be more flexible. I remember that some Africans were taken from their own land to go to America to WORK and they were forced to speak the English language, but still they used the English language in a different way or style. Still many understood the Africans' English. I use the English language in my best effort in UK and many say my language is very good and understood. The IETF English is not the native English, it is a special English developed by its users and hope managers of IETF accept all world speakers. We need native speakers to be more understanding and more helpful to encourage others to speak. I believe there are many quite because they know that majority are native English speakers. Still the environment is not encouraging more diversity. Yes most meetings of IETF is in North America but I prefer if it is in Europe. Please note that this issue will be reported in an I-D and analysed to promote more diversity in using English or using other languages in our work. Regards AB --001a11c1cf5a9d4c8004f41e0a3e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all,

There is subject running in IETF discussion list= as:=A0IETF working language (started today),=A0does IETF select English la= nguage for work so that it can insult who don't use it in one method. T= he majority will formulate the language of IETF, I believe some day the dis= cussion=A0language will be more flexible.=A0

I remember that some=A0Africans were taken from their o= wn land to go to America to WORK and they were forced to speak the English = language, but still they used the English language in a different way or st= yle. Still many understood the Africans' English. I use the English lan= guage in my best effort in UK and many say my language is very good and und= erstood. The IETF English is not the native English, it is a special Englis= h developed by its users and hope managers of IETF accept all world speaker= s.=A0

We need native speakers to be more understanding and mo= re helpful to encourage others to speak. I believe there are many quite bec= ause they know that majority are native English speakers. Still the environ= ment is not encouraging more diversity.=A0

Yes most meetings of IETF is in North=A0America but I p= refer if it is in Europe. Please note that this issue will be reported in a= n I-D and analysed to promote more diversity in using English or using othe= r languages in our work.=A0

Regards

AB
--001a11c1cf5a9d4c8004f41e0a3e-- From nobody Sat Mar 8 21:16:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A14A91A0309 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2014 21:16:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yd0oQ5WT4uGi for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2014 21:16:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yh0-x22b.google.com (mail-yh0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c01::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AE951A01BB for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2014 21:16:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yh0-f43.google.com with SMTP id b6so5932599yha.30 for ; Sat, 08 Mar 2014 21:15:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=31MfT8i8Tj9copMAPFCfhP4wsJcWFtqa33OgLk6CZhw=; b=Dqr5psyMuSNuo7Tgd9aYVQCifZ2CzFA393d6g0E2iwAqfxLcj3zi+ozFyl68KbD531 3XE7VMxXUDENjih1YfcdhDMjuvJjYvty9EmQODQAT6VT+srebTHSmHFQGUyjSuR+pah+ 62rRWTdaPDDTLU7Pbhoc1g1VaeKnYvRMQVAKkyWMMCuN9Fdo0PjFMKdpXNXJPTQuk3M3 DKBE+jERsx5MHpZPUlGmdwaaHuUYDzVYeRAzlORJ0FWE3wKBKQ2TxPd1cJVJO7P5P88m QwMBfseT/9G96ul3zqSkeNJZF3R5hqB1dlvQgVafmM2Mn61TtGam6xcr4/+z7AsJjWBj BRxA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.160.9 with SMTP id t9mr34512593yhk.10.1394342155605; Sat, 08 Mar 2014 21:15:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.170.202.7 with HTTP; Sat, 8 Mar 2014 21:15:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 05:15:55 +0000 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: "diversity@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf30434a1ce15b5304f42594de Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/ip8ECtkc3tWXeE0gCLSJskZVaQo Subject: Re: [Diversity] Native English speaker, English language, and English organisation X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2014 05:16:03 -0000 --20cf30434a1ce15b5304f42594de Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The below is work in progress for an I-D about ; IETF work language. You may comment on any text/idea. Title: IETF work language and documents. Dated: 09.03.2014 Author: Abdussalam Baryun Abstract: The IETF language includes all participants language but officially the only language used is English language which is used in its documents. However, its discussions and work in progress items may not be in English language. (The abstract is not completed). 1. Introduction: IETF is not an English organisation, but IETF may have some English speakers, may have native English speakers groups/organisation, and may have other speaking language organisations. I was happy when the DT made translation of the Note Well to different languages. That is a good progress, for freeing IETF from forcing one language on participants if the participants want to engage in IETF work equally with all. I don't think we are forced officially to write/read in English in all I-Ds, we are only forced to write abstract and title and other policy statement in English, the content can be in French, Chinese, Spanish, etc. I hope all authors remember that giving some translation within their versions submitted can help their work be used better world wide. Regards AB On Saturday, March 8, 2014, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: > Hi all, > > There is subject running in IETF discussion list as: IETF working language > (started today), does IETF select English language for work so that it can > insult who don't use it in one method. The majority will formulate the > language of IETF, I believe some day the discussion language will be more > flexible. > > I remember that some Africans were taken from their own land to go to > America to WORK and they were forced to speak the English language, but > still they used the English language in a different way or style. Still > many understood the Africans' English. I use the English language in my > best effort in UK and many say my language is very good and understood. The > IETF English is not the native English, it is a special English developed > by its users and hope managers of IETF accept all world speakers. > > We need native speakers to be more understanding and more helpful to > encourage others to speak. I believe there are many quite because they know > that majority are native English speakers. Still the environment is not > encouraging more diversity. > > Yes most meetings of IETF is in North America but I prefer if it is in > Europe. Please note that this issue will be reported in an I-D and analysed > to promote more diversity in using English or using other languages in our > work. > > Regards > > AB > --20cf30434a1ce15b5304f42594de Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The below is work in progress for an I-D about ;=A0IETF work language.= You may comment on any text/idea.=A0

Title: IETF = work language and documents.=A0
Dated: 09.03.2014
Autho= r: Abdussalam Baryun

Abstract:
The IETF language includes all part= icipants language but officially the only language used is=A0English langua= ge which is=A0used in its documents. However, its discussions and work in p= rogress items may not be in English language. (The abstract is not complete= d).=A0

1.=A0Introduction:

IETF is not= an English organisation, but IETF may have some English speakers, may have= native English speakers groups/organisation, and may have other speaking l= anguage organisations.=A0

I was happy when the DT made translation of the Note We= ll to different languages. That is a good progress, for freeing IETF from f= orcing one language on participants if the participants=A0want to engage in= IETF=A0work equally with all.=A0

I don't think we are forced officially=A0to write/read= =A0in English in all=A0I-Ds, we are=A0only forced to write abstract and tit= le and other policy statement in English, the content can be in French, Chi= nese, Spanish, etc.=A0=A0I hope all authors remember that giving some trans= lation within their versions submitted=A0can help their work be used better= =A0world wide.=A0

Regards
AB

On Saturday, March 8, 2014,= Abdussalam Baryun wrote:
Hi all,
There is subject running in IETF discussion list as:=A0IETF work= ing language (started today),=A0does IETF select English language for work = so that it can insult who don't use it in one method. The majority will= formulate the language of IETF, I believe some day the discussion=A0langua= ge will be more flexible.=A0

I remember that some=A0Africans were taken from their o= wn land to go to America to WORK and they were forced to speak the English = language, but still they used the English language in a different way or st= yle. Still many understood the Africans' English. I use the English lan= guage in my best effort in UK and many say my language is very good and und= erstood. The IETF English is not the native English, it is a special Englis= h developed by its users and hope managers of IETF accept all world speaker= s.=A0

We need native speakers to be more understanding and mo= re helpful to encourage others to speak. I believe there are many quite bec= ause they know that majority are native English speakers. Still the environ= ment is not encouraging more diversity.=A0

Yes most meetings of IETF is in North=A0America but I p= refer if it is in Europe. Please note that this issue will be reported in a= n I-D and analysed to promote more diversity in using English or using othe= r languages in our work.=A0

Regards

AB
--20cf30434a1ce15b5304f42594de-- From nobody Sun Mar 9 06:22:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FD2B1A0326 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2014 06:22:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q5B7eJDQaGpN for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2014 06:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yh0-x22b.google.com (mail-yh0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c01::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47B431A035F for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2014 06:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yh0-f43.google.com with SMTP id b6so6026911yha.2 for ; Sun, 09 Mar 2014 06:22:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wqrezJYBCyeU0QTEiw8/zHPhj8UMSGbiYVnSp/0TGyQ=; b=V3DP+RUHlGp2XzOUxvMGwgV1D/BQqRrZyTo100+QEqD66uB1OFj1X+DoGpzMjcf/Cl +tI94+an6SmPCMVmw7th98HGas6UfqMv9DPgIJzAEMH67ugrWorDg+3n8S0AB463V7SZ jOomONEAzTgGq2pcS5I4vJtfv8zTAMvSa+Ku7WPN/uby4sIr+hOWYMZ6APjurJpdwFiR VQ86kAeG2sIIU0G5XMsGqtVZV6ngVIVLVc4Z9xtG9+VJNS51abFpO0uUb5WZ2mbgq/yN 52diKr5nemFUWnV6270r2GyHO016f1882VSaz6JvxwlqcJFykjIXy6LCbP/3GiB0yKmB v0KQ== X-Received: by 10.236.120.147 with SMTP id p19mr37546597yhh.6.1394371343144; Sun, 09 Mar 2014 06:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.124.102] ([190.72.123.45]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id 48sm47165407yhq.11.2014.03.09.06.22.21 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Mar 2014 06:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <531C6B10.7060903@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2014 08:52:24 -0430 From: Alejandro Acosta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diversity@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/2kEU69cly1UHCErQpkWkUXxbR-o Subject: Re: [Diversity] Is there Diversity progress in IETF list or there is anti-Diversity X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:22:31 -0000 Hi Abdussalam, I just read your email and also I double re-read the IETF Anti-Harassment Policy [1]. I think your comments can easily be added and expanded to the current text (I believe they should). Reading between the lines you probably want more, right?. At least adding your comments to the current Anti-Harassment policy is a beginning. Best regards, Alejandro, [1] https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/ietf-anti-harassment-policy.html El 3/8/2014 2:55 PM, Abdussalam Baryun escribió: > Dear DT and All diversity believers, > > This message is to reply and Just to make a > comment/conclusion/analysis after reviewing the IETF mail list. There is > no freedom of speech in IETF list while few people using their English > language and their reputation to harass one person that still has not > much reputation (i.e. newcomer from Africa). > > I think using bad words to describe humans or persons in an irrespective > message or text is not helpful/encouraging discussions for humans from > Africa, Europe, Asia, and South America, etc. > > The prophet Mohamed has taught us to help people become good/better and > to forgive each other. Also Jesus, Mouses, and Ebrahem taught humans > that. I pray to Allah to help those people who need guidance to know how > to use good words instead of bad words in discussions. > > The IETF MUST solve its problems with diversity and harassment. IETF > MUST teach its harassing persons that many humans in the world are > watching IETF and analysing it, and analysing those persons. It is very > bad by any organisation to leave its participant drive the organisation > away from its vision and objectives. Could people trust that IETF is > maintaining its principles at all times and places which it makes > meetings or discussions at. > > My comments made as (AB) into one human's below message. > > AB > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: *Loa Andersson* > Date: Saturday, March 8, 2014 > Subject: Re: AB's comments on April Fools RFCs (was Call for Review of > draft-iab-styleguide-01.txt, "RFC Style Guide") > To: Randy Bush >, IETF Chair > > > Cc: IETF Disgust > > > > Jari, > > Not speaking of the current case, but I don't not fully agree with you. > > We both know that over the years we have seen trolls on our mailing > lists (troll = someone that repeatedly and repetitively causes useless > discussions on topics that even with the wildest stretch can't be said > to belong on an IETF mailing list). > > AB) in America troll means; something bad and is different than that > what the above defined. > > I think we should be allowed to call a troll a troll! Most of the time > it is just best to ignore them, but we have seen cases where removing > posting rights has been the only effective way to handle this. > > AB) you are not allowed to call humans bad words. Otherwise you become > anti-diversity, and harassing a human in your organisation. > > > Randy, > > I think you correctly describe a problem below. Well intended disruptive > (or at least non-productive) postings are still disruptive/non- > productive. And I think the right method is not to respond, and > encourage others not to do it. > > AB) the correct way is to work together and forgive each other. > > /Loa > > On 2014-03-07 16:58, Randy Bush wrote: > > jari: > > As we discussed in the IESG open mic session at the plenary last > night, it's not appropriate to call people trolls, or anything else. > If you think someone's comments are not helpful, address that. It's > not appropriate to argue the person behind the comment. > > > point taken and apologies. my posting was ad hominem. > > > AB) you should apologies to the one you insulted not only to community. > > > > but i think we have a problem where a poster is *repeatedly* causing > massive useless discussion which overwhelms the useful content of the > list. > > > Your wrong, all discussions are useful. > > > as their postings are probably well intended, asking to censor > them would be harsh. > > > Just we should do our job in IETF. We are not in a football club it's > engineering IETF. > > > asking folk not to be drawn into the response > cycle is not simple. > > > It is simple, when we know that we should respect each other and as > people read our messages we should give them right to post as long as > those messages are respectful. > > > > randy > > > -- > > > Loa Andersson email: loa@mail01.huawei.com > Senior MPLS Expert loa@pi.nu > Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > From nobody Sun Mar 9 10:55:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E71641A0064 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2014 10:55:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aajXW4tX1e6v for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2014 10:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x235.google.com (mail-ve0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F0BE1A02AA for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2014 10:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f181.google.com with SMTP id oy12so6286778veb.12 for ; Sun, 09 Mar 2014 10:55:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=BvKVIQtWZ43W27pt+s0TgGpdYyqnFqPpy6y0+pAaWrw=; b=swqab4EkzpEnT9dZVKSkSLsSpmc4RktHNnWl4NM02vJAxsL+ogvLl6RcRYeBYnlUsq yCddho+dOmXKaYG5RDh6cC4oy87Ub7IQNhTP+NhhOrlq+H/Yr6DxGqPeVOAEQdicJtdt 7RMg5Y9ru87VpnSj5TCC6Pc1ajdYpR5iObhl53kapZcSpn9oT8mCVxOYe8AC2LaRm07m o02JoavsnUjbWGJRXdMB7k8eWK0+n93hsZ2lMs0I+v7s8IzSRdPBfaikGtXgO5wAG7ew egPxQM2h3iUkVXw0jOrWtblexpWgr9kP7JDx5h6RdiR6c2ziRymKpRcpzkOPId8hq0bk mLDQ== X-Received: by 10.59.9.38 with SMTP id dp6mr108154ved.24.1394387707108; Sun, 09 Mar 2014 10:55:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.58.105.34 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Mar 2014 10:54:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Arturo Servin Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 10:54:47 -0700 Message-ID: To: Abdussalam Baryun Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bf0f4fcf624ef04f4302f3e Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/uZUMvy9LvaNjDDGh6MMSZuadiFk Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Native English speaker, English language, and English organisation X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2014 17:55:15 -0000 --047d7bf0f4fcf624ef04f4302f3e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 For as much as I would like to have drafts, discussions and RFCs in other languages the idea is not plausible nor practical for now. I would suggest going something in between like the LACNOG community has done. Set up a list were some IETF topics are discussed in Spanish, a pre-virtual-meeting where authors can present and discuss their drafts before the IETF. Regards, as On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 9:15 PM, Abdussalam Baryun < abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> wrote: > The below is work in progress for an I-D about ; IETF work language. You > may comment on any text/idea. > > Title: IETF work language and documents. > Dated: 09.03.2014 > Author: Abdussalam Baryun > > Abstract: > The IETF language includes all participants language but officially the > only language used is English language which is used in its documents. > However, its discussions and work in progress items may not be in English > language. (The abstract is not completed). > > 1. Introduction: > > IETF is not an English organisation, but IETF may have some English > speakers, may have native English speakers groups/organisation, and may > have other speaking language organisations. > > I was happy when the DT made translation of the Note Well to different > languages. That is a good progress, for freeing IETF from forcing one > language on participants if the participants want to engage in IETF work > equally with all. > > I don't think we are forced officially to write/read in English in > all I-Ds, we are only forced to write abstract and title and other policy > statement in English, the content can be in French, Chinese, Spanish, > etc. I hope all authors remember that giving some translation within their > versions submitted can help their work be used better world wide. > > Regards > AB > > > On Saturday, March 8, 2014, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> There is subject running in IETF discussion list as: IETF working >> language (started today), does IETF select English language for work so >> that it can insult who don't use it in one method. The majority will >> formulate the language of IETF, I believe some day the discussion language >> will be more flexible. >> >> I remember that some Africans were taken from their own land to go to >> America to WORK and they were forced to speak the English language, but >> still they used the English language in a different way or style. Still >> many understood the Africans' English. I use the English language in my >> best effort in UK and many say my language is very good and understood. The >> IETF English is not the native English, it is a special English developed >> by its users and hope managers of IETF accept all world speakers. >> >> We need native speakers to be more understanding and more helpful to >> encourage others to speak. I believe there are many quite because they know >> that majority are native English speakers. Still the environment is not >> encouraging more diversity. >> >> Yes most meetings of IETF is in North America but I prefer if it is in >> Europe. Please note that this issue will be reported in an I-D and analysed >> to promote more diversity in using English or using other languages in our >> work. >> >> Regards >> >> AB >> > > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > > --047d7bf0f4fcf624ef04f4302f3e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For as much as I would like to have drafts, discu= ssions and RFCs in other languages the idea is not plausible nor practical = for now.

I would suggest going something in betwee= n like the LACNOG community has done. Set up a list were some IETF topics a= re discussed in Spanish, a pre-virtual-meeting where authors can present an= d discuss their drafts before the IETF.

Regards,
as




On Sa= t, Mar 8, 2014 at 9:15 PM, Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@g= mail.com> wrote:
The below is work in progress for an I-= D about ;=A0IETF work language. You may comment on any text/idea.=A0
<= div>
Title: IETF work language and documents.=A0
Dated:= 09.03.2014
Author: Abdussalam Baryun

Abstract:
The IETF language includes all part= icipants language but officially the only language used is=A0English langua= ge which is=A0used in its documents. However, its discussions and work in p= rogress items may not be in English language. (The abstract is not complete= d).=A0

1.=A0Introduction:

IETF is not= an English organisation, but IETF may have some English speakers, may have= native English speakers groups/organisation, and may have other speaking l= anguage organisations.=A0

I was happy when the DT made translation of the Note We= ll to different languages. That is a good progress, for freeing IETF from f= orcing one language on participants if the participants=A0want to engage in= IETF=A0work equally with all.=A0

I don't think we are forced officially=A0to write/read= =A0in English in all=A0I-Ds, we are=A0only forced to write abstract and tit= le and other policy statement in English, the content can be in French, Chi= nese, Spanish, etc.=A0=A0I hope all authors remember that giving some trans= lation within their versions submitted=A0can help their work be used better= =A0world wide.=A0

Regards
AB


On Saturday, March= 8, 2014, Abdussalam Baryun wrote:
Hi all,

There is subject running in IETF discussion list as:=A0IETF work= ing language (started today),=A0does IETF select English language for work = so that it can insult who don't use it in one method. The majority will= formulate the language of IETF, I believe some day the discussion=A0langua= ge will be more flexible.=A0

I remember that some=A0Africans were taken from their o= wn land to go to America to WORK and they were forced to speak the English = language, but still they used the English language in a different way or st= yle. Still many understood the Africans' English. I use the English lan= guage in my best effort in UK and many say my language is very good and und= erstood. The IETF English is not the native English, it is a special Englis= h developed by its users and hope managers of IETF accept all world speaker= s.=A0

We need native speakers to be more understanding and mo= re helpful to encourage others to speak. I believe there are many quite bec= ause they know that majority are native English speakers. Still the environ= ment is not encouraging more diversity.=A0

Yes most meetings of IETF is in North=A0America but I p= refer if it is in Europe. Please note that this issue will be reported in a= n I-D and analysed to promote more diversity in using English or using othe= r languages in our work.=A0

Regards

AB

_______________________________________________
diversity mailing list
diversity@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity


--047d7bf0f4fcf624ef04f4302f3e-- From nobody Sun Mar 9 15:55:09 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 575021A029A for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2014 15:55:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bt5aKxz39ADq for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2014 15:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yh0-x233.google.com (mail-yh0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c01::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B2801A0286 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2014 15:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yh0-f51.google.com with SMTP id f10so6320749yha.38 for ; Sun, 09 Mar 2014 15:55:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=AvXoE0PjFtWJgCahy8oSELixmaPKaTgvxQ32D2jLsU4=; b=pzNyqwq8vh2kzBLpDnBFNHqk+was2Yf67ttBJbFcfcZJBHgRiHNbxblC8RezhiO9wZ Pq5nGbNZvE0Tieh+JgObSKNeRrQbnhyVh+w6+QS+Zo+vSlwHFBKwX9PCxt4dxMsAiceT U3l7WpcyqOWFumuQD1ZAj9/glyPvwIJj4G6tyL+e2yaZJh/ZSLO21yxpsZu/ZZ6YCT1y xjim/0KgMDM+sN1w6/xDbCha2CY5zYyAJEAXkUfnHCHAMbH4SsCu0MoesSLbHY8fr8TW oo0HSX2UOOtoBByG5Pwvk6G0EAZTldEJLknPHGtLaxvRFmgwgqDJJFvAa/z2tbglcMvv z4vw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.123.193 with SMTP id v41mr40458839yhh.68.1394405700823; Sun, 09 Mar 2014 15:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.170.202.7 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Mar 2014 15:55:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 22:55:00 +0000 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: Arturo Servin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf301afb7b786cbf04f43460e7 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/C0f3mt-hrN16nIGZ9bqRu9XYCyg Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Native English speaker, English language, and English organisation X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2014 22:55:07 -0000 --20cf301afb7b786cbf04f43460e7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Arturo, Thanks for your input and suggestions, I will consider that in the I-D. On Sunday, March 9, 2014, Arturo Servin wrote: > > For as much as I would like to have drafts, discussions and RFCs in other > languages the idea is not plausible nor practical for now. > I think there are already discussions and groups with other languages, but not on lists or meetings. Those input discussions make many I-Ds. I agree that RFCs stays with only one language that the IETF selects/agrees. > I would suggest going something in between like the LACNOG community has > done. > Agree > Set up a list were some IETF topics are discussed in Spanish, a > pre-virtual-meeting where authors can present and discuss their drafts > before the IETF. > I agree that it will be productive and helpful for non native speakers/writers, but I want to add some times ideas come into Spanish writer if posted to IETF WG list it can be translated into the draft in English. If editors are Spanish it is practical. If we have editors that have more than one language then we may have more inputs on the list that can be translated into draft in English. AB --20cf301afb7b786cbf04f43460e7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Arturo,

Thanks for your input and suggestions, I will= consider that in the I-D.=A0

On Sunday, March 9, 2014, Arturo Servi= n wrote:

For as much as I would like to have drafts, discu= ssions and RFCs in other languages the idea is not plausible nor practical = for now.

I think there are alre= ady discussions and groups with other languages, but not on lists=A0or meet= ings. Those input discussions make many I-Ds. I agree that RFCs stays with = only one language that the IETF selects/agrees.=A0


I would suggest going something in between like the LACNOG communit= y has done.=A0

Agree=A0
=A0
Set up a list were = some IETF topics are discussed in Spanish, a pre-virtual-meeting where auth= ors can present and discuss their drafts before the IETF.

I agree that it will be productive a= nd helpful for non native speakers/writers, but I want to add some times id= eas come into Spanish writer if posted to IETF WG list it=A0can be translat= ed into the draft in English. If editors are Spanish it is practical.=A0

If we have editors that have more than one language the= n we may=A0have more inputs on the list that can be translated into draft i= n English.=A0

AB
--20cf301afb7b786cbf04f43460e7-- From nobody Sun Mar 9 23:26:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A5901A03D9 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2014 23:26:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VIYQB1euzYpw for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2014 23:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yk0-x22e.google.com (mail-yk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 264161A03D1 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2014 23:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yk0-f174.google.com with SMTP id 20so18054602yks.5 for ; Sun, 09 Mar 2014 23:26:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=CTF0UFdvLcoqKmPC/Xsp5JYqb7en6GYOB/Y1hTwVpd8=; b=EuLv3eu1FZOHEtrjqLqSeMwl5xougy6SpLB9po0uTlnBWGPiCbOyIAeOd83Alz0vZg U6NN1mYsDoWn7MPbvXvtZnjHFVn0v85Fo7TQbROgP3E5Inf8gCaeYy2NCf87lA7xg77M l7BakhQTMHRY4jN6/AFTougXBTao4ghakMBJOokg8q8Rn5jSgGZ7CyGuFamd4jtVhZW3 yGvhhA/QEMqt3zC5F59e3qeOm5U3y2roab+EAPWP1v24b05uskP44dGE7LDyrnpc/quQ gs7suI2hwbVKSnrcDlXQVJ2+0VVZP+6/Fs3M7zGGrUzQ1ph5gySsotSR9Yc+K9sYx9Ga vAwQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.113.244 with SMTP id a80mr397092yhh.115.1394432802785; Sun, 09 Mar 2014 23:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.170.202.7 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Mar 2014 23:26:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <531C6B10.7060903@gmail.com> References: <531C6B10.7060903@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 06:26:42 +0000 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: Alejandro Acosta Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf301b695fdf902704f43aafce Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/G1HLAyU9pDSU1HWyx10H6wKlnTs Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Is there Diversity progress in IETF list or there is anti-Diversity X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 06:26:50 -0000 --20cf301b695fdf902704f43aafce Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Thanks Alejandro, The idea is that we need more diversity in participation, in discussions, in inputs, in IESG, in IETF WGs, and in policies. However, IMHO IETF organisation (but may be not all its lists) is progressing because there are active known participants believing in diversity and they are able to change IETF. AB --20cf301b695fdf902704f43aafce Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Alejandro,

The idea is that we need more diversit= y in participation, in discussions, in inputs, in IESG, in IETF WGs,=A0and = in policies. However, IMHO IETF organisation (but may=A0be not all its list= s)=A0is progressing because there=A0are active known participants=A0believi= ng=A0in diversity and they are able to change IETF.=A0

AB
--20cf301b695fdf902704f43aafce-- From nobody Mon Mar 10 05:17:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 255A61A042D; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 05:17:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nHUUIG91SycZ; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 05:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yh0-x233.google.com (mail-yh0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c01::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA2551A01CC; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 05:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yh0-f51.google.com with SMTP id f10so6939994yha.10 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 05:17:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=bo06hkasFAnCkMU8lqwBZC9768zhraGcZkTSxMiyYps=; b=sYsHh48YPJi4sX6JYF2JOBmsn3lg0cutnpbJRUDs7pEGYk3p4WKnKNms12B3sk5zmX kDPPhkh8DCO8Dc13Azv4/dQPEwJs5oQLB+qCTf2ZV/JgbljhH80A/n2rT3s8wgq2lmSL zMjyLQ///KTufLAOMYTuuAKlgzON381uB131z2CsPwngQS8kaC51VjCRS8+gli7m40h+ tEYyMqATsqobr6O2Z/f8bKPSwaDYULiBKyeqc/lA5A/u4dLNsMOUjVoRZjYM+FIQWUf0 r4+uvgUi5Sw/XxsNnyW4KxXMSyXtvYPYQusllcQUtSxuf+9WFC1sD23LpklSl/HZt3fz s1zA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.172.33 with SMTP id s21mr42544022yhl.71.1394453863520; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 05:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.170.202.7 with HTTP; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 05:17:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5314C9AD.1090307@qti.qualcomm.com> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 13:17:43 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: Pete Resnick , Adrian Farrel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/SoW3PmRpRgV3_OlKx13m1QBE638 Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , IETF-Discussion list Subject: Re: [Diversity] Anti-harassment procedures - next version X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 12:17:51 -0000 Bonjour, Ni Hao, and Hallo, (greatings used in some IETF individuals meeting :-) IMHO the draft should encourage and recommend progress in WGs and progress between participants social skills problems (may be in introduction). If we replace shooting style/behavior with forgiveness style/behavior, then such participation style will help progress for more people politely setting their output tone or messages. Therefore more IETF input participation and diversity. Adding section related to Assisting Subject and Respondent : AB> the draft may need some thing that helps both sides, as assistance in their plans and thoughts while they are in such situation. The Ombudsperson may need volunteers (close friends to both sides) to help reduce the HEAT. Please note that Subject MAY call the police, which we may not prefer because we MAY be able to solve the issues internally in IETF. Therefore, having a section to promote internal volunteering within IETF makes us more social and more proactive. Adding suggestion into draft: under (5.Remedies): AB>suggest to add text> If the decision was to give the respondent full activity rights, then the respondent MUST apologies in public to the subject and to the community of such possible harassment. This will help the main goal of anti-harassment which is that all work together within healthy environment to encourage participation and diversity. under (5.Remedies): The draft paragraph> However, the Ombudsperson has ultimate responsibility for the choice of remedy. AB>discussing> the Ombudsperson SHOULD consider and to discuss the subject request remedies to get better results of his/her final Ombudsperson remedy choice, as how to make both (subject and respondent) in future be able to work with each other and forgive each other and how to help the Internet-community/Internet-societies to work with both of them. The aim of Ombudsperson remedy choices is to consider the IETF vision, diversity and objectives but also to protect subjects to any such harassment objects within IETF and in the future. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please note that I was requested by the author to post/share my thoughts in the IETF list to make it in one place. However, I prefere the diversity list so I send a copy to it as well. Salam, (my personal used greating :-) AB On 3/7/14, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: > Adding suggestions; > > Under (5. Remedies): > > AB/ text suggest/add/ > If there is any remaining harassment message or record (which is publicly > evidence) after the reported attack and the decision made by IETF, then > the related harassment object MUST be removed/destroyed from IETF public > access and MAY be saved in private data base of the IETF. > > > Please note that I was requested by the author to post in the IETF my > comments. > > Regards > AB > From nobody Mon Mar 10 10:27:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F0951A01D3 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:58:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y6HYBfAd2ost for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:58:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 939F61A01C8 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:58:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [31.133.166.229] (dhcp-a6e5.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.166.229]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s269vx7m032485 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:58:04 -0800 Message-ID: <53184665.4010501@bbiw.net> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 09:56:53 +0000 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SM , Narelle Clark References: <6.2.5.6.2.20140305134027.0d8d0970@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20140305134027.0d8d0970@elandnews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.67]); Thu, 06 Mar 2014 01:58:05 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/hx-z3kAFoQFV94x-4GLyddLF7yA X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:27:53 -0700 Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Comments on draft-crocker-diversity-conduct-00 X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 09:58:12 -0000 SM, Thanks for the comments. Inline. On 3/6/2014 6:21 AM, SM wrote: > In Section 2.2: > > "However the IETF has a long history of tolerating aggressive and even > hostile behavior by participants." > > It has been said that: > > "The IETF culture of openness also tends to tolerate participants who, > whilst understanding the principles of the IETF, disagree with them > and actively ignore them." 1. We can't know whether they understand or not. 2. It doesn't matter whether they understand. In either case the behavior is problematic. 3. In a paper that expresses concern about focusing on the human rather than the issues, we should be very judicious about any discussion of what goes on inside a person... > The draft raises questions about the IETF as an unbiased organization. > The following text: > > "Historically participation in the IETF and its antecedent was almost > entirely composed of well-funded, American, white, male engineers." > > is controversial. I don't think it's controversial, though of course it is uncomfortable by virtue of the nature of the topic. It's making a statistical assertion about demographic characteristics of the original community. While there were sprinklings of woman, europeans, and non-caucasians, each was in very short supply. > It can be rationalized that it is how the world > works. Does it follow that: > > "management the IETF can be significantly in-bred, favoring selection > of well-known, white, male, American technicians" No it doesn't follow and it isn't offer as following. It is meant as an independent assertion of bias. Perhaps it needs some justification language and citations and perhaps some elaboration of current realities, per the details you supplied. > "However the results of the systers experiment were not encouraging. > In spite of their engineering a disproportionately high > number of female candidates, not a single one was selected." > > It can be problematic if specific groups of people ran experiments such > as the above to test NomCom. No one claimed this was scientific. I also haven't heard any serious claims that the results with the experiment were worthy of being ignored. > The overtly aggressive style in the IETF is intimidating. This is where > a person has to decide whether to adopt the same style or walk away from > the IETF. It could be said that it does not pay to be nice. The > following was written in 2004: > > "Members of this affinity group tend to talk more freely to each other > and former members of the affinity group - this may be because the > affinity group has also come to share a cultural outlook which > matches the dominant cultural ethos of the IETF (North American, > English speaking). Newcomers to the organization and others outside > the affinity group are reluctant to challenge the apparent authority > of the extended affinity group during debates and consequently > influence remains concentrated in a relatively small group of people." Citation details? > A person, who is not from the dominant culture, would be very reluctant > to participate in the debates. That person could be given a label which > is humiliating. It is discouraging to see such behavior going > unchallenged. Yup. > Quoting from an article which was published today: Citation details? http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/when-it-meets-politics/2014/03/the-conspiracy-of-silence-over.html ? d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Mon Mar 10 10:27:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 161341A0763; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 13:33:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.548 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.548 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7VmNAAt1M46g; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 13:33:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from darkstar.isi.edu (darkstar.isi.edu [128.9.128.127]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30B871A02A7; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 13:33:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.9.160.166] (abc.isi.edu [128.9.160.166]) (authenticated bits=0) by darkstar.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s1PLX9u1024917 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 25 Feb 2014 13:33:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <530D0C15.2070208@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 13:33:09 -0800 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" , "irtf-discuss@irtf.org" , "diversity@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/sPieFuhMUC14PqE-TspICd1dmnI X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:27:53 -0700 Cc: Juliao Braga Subject: Re: [Diversity] [irtf-discuss] Bridging the Gap between Internet Standardization and Networking Research X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 21:33:37 -0000 Hi, Alvaro (et al.), On 2/25/2014 12:22 PM, Alvaro Retana (aretana) wrote: > Hi! > > I received my copy of the latest CCR over the weekend — one of the > articles that caught my eye is 'Bridging the Gap between Internet > Standardization and Networking Research'; it talks about the challenges > of increasing the participation of network researchers in SDOs like the > IETF. I'll let you read it for yourselves: > http://www.sigcomm.org/sites/default/files/ccr/papers/2014/January/2567561-2567572.pdf > > The problem of attracting researchers (and others) to the IETF is timely > as there have been recent discussions about rebooting RGs, and in The IETF isn't the IRTF; I think the goal of the article is engaging researchers more in the IETF side of the house. > general about diversity..an earlier version of the paper was also > presented at the recent 'IAB Workshop on Internet Technology Adoption > and Transition' in December [1]. > > LACNOG started an effort last year to attract more participants from the > region to the IETF [2]. The original focus was naturally on operators — > but under Juliao Braga's leadership we're organizing the 'I Workshop > pre-IETF' in Brazil later this year (http://iwpietf.lacnog.org/), in > conjunction with the largest academic computing event in the country [3]. > > One of the "features" of the workshop, which is what I really want to > share with you, is the "Post-Workshop Committee", which will work with > the authors to (as needed and as appropriate) submit the work to the > IETF/IRTF: guidance, mentoring, editing, etc. The objective is then to > help close that gap between standardization and research..while > increasing awareness and participation. But there's an underlying disconnect here - in the past, researchers were able to get support to participate in the IETF in various ways, because the Internet was considered a research effort in some way. Those days are long gone. > If anyone is interested in talking about this topic, I will be in London > next week. Unfortunately, Juliao won't, but I know he's available on > e-mail. :-) I won't be there either; I found that, as a researcher, I was being increasingly asked to provide free consulting for companies, while I was having increasing difficulty both getting funds to support attending and justifying use of those funds for IETF participation. This is part of the reason why there are few (if any) academics at the higher levels of the IETF - few of us have enough support that we can burn 20-80% of it on the IETF as an unpaid consultant. So while I appreciate the goal of this, if there's no money to back it up I fear it will not bear fruit. Joe > > Thanks! > > Alvaro. > > > > [1] http://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/itat/ > [2] > http://www.internetsociety.org/articles/latin-american-participation-ietf-ietf-lac-task-force-begins-long-term-mission > [3] http://csbc2014.cic.unb.br/index.php/i-workshop-pre-ietf From nobody Mon Mar 10 10:33:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5748B1A064F; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:33:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -97.083 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-97.083 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.347, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.77, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qOXWDuaThk0s; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (asmtp3.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.159]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 570271A04B6; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2AHXVdY032078; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 17:33:31 GMT Received: from 950129200 (108.26.90.92.rev.sfr.net [92.90.26.108]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2AHXRXt032046 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 10 Mar 2014 17:33:29 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Joe Touch'" References: <530D0C15.2070208@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: <530D0C15.2070208@isi.edu> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 17:33:28 -0000 Message-ID: <15e401cf3c86$db5552c0$91fff840$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJvK1980IVoTabf1aEh1RkZL3vqrwG5L5ysmYzsdeA= Content-language: en-gb Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/JUabA8hDA0XVtwG-Xl7ZRGWJ7DM Cc: irtf-discuss@irtf.org, diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] [irtf-discuss] Bridging the Gap between Internet Standardization and Networking Research X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 17:33:39 -0000 > This is part of the reason why there are few (if any) academics at the > higher levels of the IETF - few of us have enough support that we can > burn 20-80% of it on the IETF as an unpaid consultant. Hi Joe, I don't want to detract from what you said in the rest of your email because it is true. However, on this point... On the IESG Brian Haberman (Johns Hopkins University) Stephen Farrell (Trinity College Dublin) and Martin Stiemerling is just transferring to a University post. Cheers, Adrian From nobody Mon Mar 10 10:41:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A41D1A04CD; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:41:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pSP6xUERvDpW; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E31061A0361; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [75.208.87.150] (150.sub-75-208-87.myvzw.com [75.208.87.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2AHejE3021700 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <531DF91F.6050104@isi.edu> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:40:47 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: adrian@olddog.co.uk References: <530D0C15.2070208@isi.edu> <15e401cf3c86$db5552c0$91fff840$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <15e401cf3c86$db5552c0$91fff840$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/SBHXVzbezCifv96UPJ_oex8yHkQ Cc: irtf-discuss@irtf.org, diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] [irtf-discuss] Bridging the Gap between Internet Standardization and Networking Research X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 17:41:49 -0000 On 3/10/2014 10:33 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: >> This is part of the reason why there are few (if any) academics at the >> higher levels of the IETF - few of us have enough support that we can >> burn 20-80% of it on the IETF as an unpaid consultant. > > Hi Joe, I don't want to detract from what you said in the rest of your email > because it is true. > > However, on this point... > > On the IESG > Brian Haberman (Johns Hopkins University) > Stephen Farrell (Trinity College Dublin) > and Martin Stiemerling is just transferring to a University post. Yes, there are three academics out of 15 main members. And two people from each of three different companies. And 2 of 13 on the IAB. Looking at the IESG, IAB, and WG chairs as a set, the numbers are small, esp. given there are individual companies with comparable numbers. Yes, they're not zero. Joe From nobody Mon Mar 10 11:36:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E984E1A06A3 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 11:36:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7qQbY576Lnsu for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 11:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EA3D1A0574 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 11:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB72BE32; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 18:35:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MPg2YKxJ+BGx; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 18:35:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [134.226.36.180] (stephen-think.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.180]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1AF27BE29; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 18:35:52 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <531E0608.1070701@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 18:35:52 +0000 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Touch , adrian@olddog.co.uk References: <530D0C15.2070208@isi.edu> <15e401cf3c86$db5552c0$91fff840$@olddog.co.uk> <531DF91F.6050104@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: <531DF91F.6050104@isi.edu> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/U15FmVJUNovTgCJU2jKqrbefexU Cc: irtf-discuss@irtf.org, diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] [irtf-discuss] Bridging the Gap between Internet Standardization and Networking Research X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 18:36:01 -0000 On 03/10/2014 05:40 PM, Joe Touch wrote: > > > On 3/10/2014 10:33 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: >>> This is part of the reason why there are few (if any) academics at the >>> higher levels of the IETF - few of us have enough support that we can >>> burn 20-80% of it on the IETF as an unpaid consultant. >> >> Hi Joe, I don't want to detract from what you said in the rest of your >> email >> because it is true. >> >> However, on this point... >> >> On the IESG >> Brian Haberman (Johns Hopkins University) >> Stephen Farrell (Trinity College Dublin) >> and Martin Stiemerling is just transferring to a University post. > > Yes, there are three academics out of 15 main members. And two people > from each of three different companies. > > And 2 of 13 on the IAB. > > Looking at the IESG, IAB, and WG chairs as a set, the numbers are small, > esp. given there are individual companies with comparable numbers. > > Yes, they're not zero. And you're both right:-) I think the parts of the CCR article I'd question are the assertions that providing free consulting is objectionable (don't recall if that was in CCR or just Joe's mail) and that the Internet is no longer a research topic. On the former: maybe I'm a hopeless idealist but educating people from companies or anywhere is something that senior academics (and that's me off the hook:-) should be doing even if not paid, but its quite understandable that different folks have different thresholds for what's acceptable there. On the latter, I think we could do some work to reduce the correctly described perception that the Internet is not a research topic, if we academics did some more (but not exclusively) realistic research, e.g., if we no longer accepted "my non-reproducible ns-2 thing is better than yours" as justifying a publication that might help push researchers to work more with the real Internet and might eventually leak over into funders brains. (There are some folks doing that kind of good work and e.g. the ANRP prizes are encouraging that I hope.) S. From nobody Mon Mar 10 11:48:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7575E1A04B0; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 11:48:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9ulZS1NGS28Q; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 11:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 188821A03FC; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 11:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [75.208.87.150] (150.sub-75-208-87.myvzw.com [75.208.87.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2AIjkuF009548 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 10 Mar 2014 11:46:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <531E085C.4000100@isi.edu> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 11:45:48 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Farrell , adrian@olddog.co.uk References: <530D0C15.2070208@isi.edu> <15e401cf3c86$db5552c0$91fff840$@olddog.co.uk> <531DF91F.6050104@isi.edu> <531E0608.1070701@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <531E0608.1070701@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/Z4ZBmIdUrWCHOzkbgPSt5XIqxZA Cc: irtf-discuss@irtf.org, diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] [irtf-discuss] Bridging the Gap between Internet Standardization and Networking Research X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 18:48:19 -0000 On 3/10/2014 11:35 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: ... > I think the parts of the CCR article I'd question are the assertions > that providing free consulting is objectionable (don't recall if that > was in CCR or just Joe's mail) and that the Internet is no longer a > research topic. > > On the former: maybe I'm a hopeless idealist but educating people > from companies or anywhere is something that senior academics (and > that's me off the hook:-) should be doing even if not paid, but its > quite understandable that different folks have different thresholds > for what's acceptable there. Being paid is one issue, and while I agree there are some nuances, I think there's a big difference between discussing the broad concepts of tunneling and MTU vs spending a lot of time on Google's latest crusade to convert TCP into their personally-optimized transport. A bigger, hopefully less contentious concern is direct cost - given a travel budget, is attending the IETF research or outreach? And is the latter a part of my research contract (nope). Joe From nobody Mon Mar 10 12:10:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F18481A0675; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 12:10:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qmEmsApbpgg3; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 12:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F8D1A04CD; Mon, 10 Mar 2014 12:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [75.208.87.150] (150.sub-75-208-87.myvzw.com [75.208.87.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2AJ51l2024891 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 10 Mar 2014 12:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <531E0CDF.3050702@isi.edu> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 12:05:03 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Farrell , adrian@olddog.co.uk References: <530D0C15.2070208@isi.edu> <15e401cf3c86$db5552c0$91fff840$@olddog.co.uk> <531DF91F.6050104@isi.edu> <531E0608.1070701@cs.tcd.ie> <531E085C.4000100@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: <531E085C.4000100@isi.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/B_DtJT8cR380AvHIBLxHZ8urXoQ Cc: irtf-discuss@irtf.org, diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] [irtf-discuss] Bridging the Gap between Internet Standardization and Networking Research X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 19:10:31 -0000 One additional point on teaching... On 3/10/2014 11:45 AM, Joe Touch wrote: > > > On 3/10/2014 11:35 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > ... >> I think the parts of the CCR article I'd question are the assertions >> that providing free consulting is objectionable (don't recall if that >> was in CCR or just Joe's mail) and that the Internet is no longer a >> research topic. >> >> On the former: maybe I'm a hopeless idealist but educating people >> from companies or anywhere is something that senior academics (and >> that's me off the hook:-) should be doing even if not paid, but its >> quite understandable that different folks have different thresholds >> for what's acceptable there. Additionally, academics are paid to teach students at their own universities, not to roam the world performing unpaid service -- any more than programmers at commercial companies are expected to spend their spare time writing programs for others. Our jobs and our employers have priorities and a market, whether we're academics or in industry. Joe From nobody Tue Mar 11 01:12:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 895461A03DE for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 01:12:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FAKDSLNdxhID for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 01:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yk0-x229.google.com (mail-yk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A70F1A0369 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 01:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yk0-f169.google.com with SMTP id 142so22243342ykq.0 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 01:12:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=VA3XvTBFuqdx5jD+99f3JTyoCj7biGTimtlcM5/GUcs=; b=G34cHry6+y2Bs+nwHZ8IXKZm/Jz9TNjnSuPzGzY/GOnMeRClPmJli7JqMnJJJaJsnn Spv5jLAW9AZ04bELbxRBY1vYq7jfy+PqeGxNjCiIqjHpomMlhiF1RdJ0n50zZtZpPodV BlI4ZNhyeaQWL9mX+WZHdC5+UEDfczdKLZhTsDRWQaBFgplzLzPh7txqiNufMFEFBEvU e9ebgZ6/96P5NLFUiWHtyHcFuD0OvtxwQyO2ThJpowAjkp3gM8EiueHqdpGouwuHLlR0 BTfYIwyMTQSbiL1LzQUgElB3+wllKlWV6oef84YSvLtXsaYnqRN6ghULW22kpo+b5rYu K/Aw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.118.212 with SMTP id l60mr51570234yhh.78.1394525536246; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 01:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.170.202.7 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 01:12:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 09:12:16 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3005de0837e2e204f4504709 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/8STxW-DOC4_IxVwG4JJIjAZe8Q8 Cc: "irtf-discuss@irtf.org" , "diversity@ietf.org" , Juliao Braga Subject: Re: [Diversity] Bridging the Gap between Internet Standardization and Networking Research X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 08:12:36 -0000 --20cf3005de0837e2e204f4504709 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Thanks Alvaro, There are difficulties for researchers to interact with IETF. The IETF behavior is still not ready, to interact with researchers that usually prefer IEEE publications. IEEE is working more closer and more efficiently and more diverse. I spoke once to a Professor in routing, and asked why his protocol was not proposed into IETF, the answer was yes he remotely submitted his draft but IETF WG did not reply nor comment. I thought that the WG chair is May be sleeping or ignored researchers :-) IETF should be more diverse in responding to drafts, usually they look at companies or high ranked universities to only get in. That is not fair. IETF needs to look into remote work more seriously. Usually researchers work remotely but companies like face to face (f2f) working. So IETF is mostly f2f driven. Best regards AB On Tuesday, February 25, 2014, Alvaro Retana (aretana) wrote: > Hi! > > I received my copy of the latest CCR over the weekend -- one of the > articles that caught my eye is 'Bridging the Gap between Internet > Standardization and Networking Research'; it talks about the challenges of > increasing the participation of network researchers in SDOs like the IETF. > I'll let you read it for yourselves: > http://www.sigcomm.org/sites/default/files/ccr/papers/2014/January/2567561-2567572.pdf > > The problem of attracting researchers (and others) to the IETF is timely > as there have been recent discussions about rebooting RGs, and in general > about diversity..an earlier version of the paper was also presented at the > recent 'IAB Workshop on Internet Technology Adoption and Transition' in > December [1]. > > LACNOG started an effort last year to attract more participants from the > region to the IETF [2]. The original focus was naturally on operators -- > but under Juliao Braga's leadership we're organizing the 'I Workshop > pre-IETF' in Brazil later this year (http://iwpietf.lacnog.org/), in > conjunction with the largest academic computing event in the country [3]. > > One of the "features" of the workshop, which is what I really want to > share with you, is the "Post-Workshop Committee", which will work with the > authors to (as needed and as appropriate) submit the work to the IETF/IRTF: > guidance, mentoring, editing, etc. The objective is then to help close > that gap between standardization and research..while increasing awareness > and participation. > > If anyone is interested in talking about this topic, I will be in London > next week. Unfortunately, Juliao won't, but I know he's available on > e-mail. :-) > > Thanks! > > Alvaro. > > > > [1] http://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/itat/ > [2] > http://www.internetsociety.org/articles/latin-american-participation-ietf-ietf-lac-task-force-begins-long-term-mission > [3] http://csbc2014.cic.unb.br/index.php/i-workshop-pre-ietf > --20cf3005de0837e2e204f4504709 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Alvaro,

There are difficulties for researchers to= interact with IETF. The IETF behavior is still not ready, to interact with= researchers that usually prefer IEEE publications. IEEE is working more cl= oser and more efficiently and more diverse. 

I spoke once to a Professor in routing, and asked why h= is protocol was not proposed into IETF, the answer was yes he remotely = ;submitted his draft but IETF WG did not reply nor comment. I thought = that the WG chair is May be sleeping or ignored researchers :-)

IETF should be more diverse in responding to drafts, us= ually they look at companies or high ranked universities to only get in. Th= at is not fair. 

IETF needs to look into remo= te work more seriously. Usually researchers work remotely but companies lik= e face to face (f2f) working. So IETF is mostly f2f driven. 

Best regards

AB

On Tues= day, February 25, 2014, Alvaro Retana (aretana) wrote:
Hi!

I received my copy of the latest CCR over the weekend — one of t= he articles that caught my eye is 'Bridging the Gap between Internet St= andardization and Networking Research'; it talks about the challen= ges of increasing the participation of network researchers in SDOs like the IETF.  I'll let you read it for yourselves: &nbs= p;http://www.sigcomm.org/sites/de= fault/files/ccr/papers/2014/January/2567561-2567572.pdf

The problem of attracting researchers (and others) to the IETF is time= ly as there have been recent discussions about rebooting RGs, and in genera= l about diversity..an earlier version of the paper was also presented at th= e recent 'IAB Workshop on Internet Technology Adoption and Transition' in December [1].

LACNOG started an effort last year to attract more participants from t= he region to the IETF [2].  The original focus was naturally on operat= ors — but under Juliao Braga's leadership we're organizing th= e 'I Workshop pre-IETF' in Brazil later this year (http://iwpietf.lacnog.org/), in conjunction with the largest academic computing event in the country [3= ].  

One of the "features" of the workshop, which is what I reall= y want to share with you, is the "Post-Workshop Committee", which= will work with the authors to (as needed and as appropriate) submit the wo= rk to the IETF/IRTF: guidance, mentoring, editing, etc.  The objective is then to help close that gap between standardization= and research..while increasing awareness and participation.

If anyone is interested in talking about this topic, I will be in Lond= on next week.  Unfortunately, Juliao won't, but I know he's av= ailable on e-mail. :-)

Thanks!

Alvaro.



--20cf3005de0837e2e204f4504709-- From nobody Tue Mar 11 04:09:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C379E1A0547; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 04:09:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dNqLYzza-Ppt; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 04:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yk0-x22b.google.com (mail-yk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1AF1A040A; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 04:09:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yk0-f171.google.com with SMTP id q9so22654353ykb.2 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 04:09:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=yn4ww1zm7RaM8zEFZLnFYJfQM2KEIx3Fcevcqf4QvxY=; b=ik9cLdAq9qtJw/UEM5R6fVB4V+HUOb0Ku0psryOOV76/vaPov7Nv/Jk0TjI/BmJBpU iKIT2Wi9TsztQXeC0lAYjp0PqnXR5ktebWwiuxA3Smk1OUlxpBFoR1lK6lduVvKmQsHv QlTyGkm249d1CuSSJnKVULW9JUyp+w/zNrr6xwtY7KSJM+sAa4oyax01Bop+VkWtqM3X ZY6WwWfpSPK47QqtWbOmj4LbHOcENp6DdUJLqzygrCuNnArrgvxVFlGksnOo2DpgFP2t fBrDhvS8ByvseHMOIEoVSYjKTByOD/SPfbqt+tauHvZDab3XI987YWYCQE3I/h64vaKa Vbvg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.120.102 with SMTP id o66mr10939686yhh.99.1394536167005; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 04:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.170.202.7 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 04:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 12:09:26 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: "diversity@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf300e55ebdc625004f452c03e Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/o8rqain8KiWa1Fd2h8ywfkGH7Os Cc: IETF Chair Subject: [Diversity] Mentor program (was at IETF list; IETF-89 summary article X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 11:09:35 -0000 --20cf300e55ebdc625004f452c03e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Jari (IETF Chair), Sorry changed addressed to posted to diversity list not IETF, to focus my input and to not get attacks from IETF participants. Also I want to know if IETF have attracted more newcomers/mentors in this 89 meeting through the mentor program. However, I still think that some old-comers need mentoring as well to help them remember the IETF vision. Question below, On Monday, March 10, 2014, IETF Chair wrote: > Thank you all for participating and making the IETF week a success! With > the week now over, I wanted to write a brief summary of the main > discussions from my perspective. Here: > > http://www.ietf.org/blog/2014/03/ietf-89-summary/ > > What did you find noteworthy in the meeting? Any surprises, unexpected > difficulties, or opportunities for new good things? How did the mentoring program go so far within IETF89. I would like to know how many mentors volunteering and how many newcomers are using such service. Please add me in the count :-) because I am already having one, and at IETF89 meeting I meat volunteer mentor. Thanks AB --20cf300e55ebdc625004f452c03e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jari (IETF Chair),

Sorry changed addressed to=A0poste= d to diversity list not IETF, to focus my input and to=A0not=A0get attacks = from IETF participants. Also=A0I want to know if IETF have attracted more n= ewcomers/mentors in=A0this 89=A0meeting=A0through the mentor=A0program.=A0H= owever, I still think that some=A0old-comers need mentoring as well to help= them remember the IETF vision.=A0Question below,

On Monday, March 10, 2014, IETF Chair wrote:
Thank you all for participating and making the IETF week a su= ccess! With the week now over, I wanted to write a brief summary of the mai= n discussions from my perspective. Here:

http://www.ietf.org/blog/2014/03/ietf-89-summary/

What did you find noteworthy in the meeting? Any surprises, unexpected diff= iculties, or opportunities for new good things?

=
=A0How did the mentoring program go so far within IETF89.=A0I would li= ke to know how many mentors volunteering=A0and how many newcomers are using= such service. Please add me in the count :-)=A0because I am already having= one, and at IETF89 meeting I meat volunteer mentor.=A0

Thanks
AB
--20cf300e55ebdc625004f452c03e-- From nobody Tue Mar 11 04:17:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 475E71A0710 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 04:17:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dxtfo7kIw43e for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 04:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.amsl.com (mail.amsl.com [IPv6:2001:1900:3001:11::28]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B512F1A040E for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 04:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 445781E4036; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 04:16:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c8a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c9a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AsJJoZcjJ8uP; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 04:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:1d50:2:101:6d8c:4336:f5d3:cf4e] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:1d50:2:101:6d8c:4336:f5d3:cf4e]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 975971E12A8; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 04:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: IETF Chair In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 13:17:06 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <3D181E12-7C87-4563-B36A-0C43ADAAC776@ietf.org> References: To: Abdussalam Baryun X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/mFOxCLTW6ylA_hrQODVEjYh0jt4 Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Mentor program (was at IETF list; IETF-89 summary article X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 11:17:16 -0000 AB: There were 20 mentor-mentee pairs, IIRC. Jari From aaronyiding@gmail.com Tue Mar 11 07:54:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 613831A0750 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 07:54:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YM_QQSnQN5zZ for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 07:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oa0-x235.google.com (mail-oa0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA6251A074E for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 07:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f53.google.com with SMTP id j17so8572062oag.40 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 07:54:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=xZ1OmAN9sWSgmJqDSnsEA9b+I6+VE+A5gwzDCVsHFjI=; b=O0blVqQCQAevB1AXmNUv3R6uW8Nk1kyl2eHbQEInkkMC8j1ng1UjiNUGLPVUOMcW5A uLaDdTK9tyKZ57akU/yfG/cAahLoMlz7tUnCL8hUcypejmoHDxgeAi0u5x6WE9yWGa0l SheF0sph//3fprjSp6lQRia5i+Nf8V1/WmgnvfjejMvTI17SxE9Gjf8e4bXHO3KNoq2r 8G071TNAdQGAjKmXmCbiexsRy9/kHG5TvZq0t+lGjrZrxGNMIMkl+kgNu4qje3AAg2sF qUbfFw6t2bDWAdpZUEr17DYZzW0qNaiaGvBhWzvkXPp3VRllwMDxY2lZoNUJG1jfJC5v 6Elg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.173.233 with SMTP id bn9mr29787252oec.9.1394549652026; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 07:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Sender: aaronyiding@gmail.com Received: by 10.182.153.103 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 07:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 16:54:11 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5f66VB1-Au5Qjl87sITQ6qs4AYk Message-ID: From: Aaron Yi DING To: stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie, touch@isi.edu, adrian@olddog.co.uk, irtf-discuss@irtf.org, diversity@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01182544a17ad604f455e4eb Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/ja-CcombN_ea8KS2cvj-i4fUQx8 Cc: Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk Subject: Re: [Diversity] [irtf-discuss] Bridging the Gap between Internet Standardization and Networking Research X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 14:58:38 -0000 --089e01182544a17ad604f455e4eb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 10/03/14 20:35, Stephen Farrell wrote: I think the parts of the CCR article I'd question are the assertions that providing free consulting is objectionable (don't recall if that was in CCR or just Joe's mail) and that the Internet is no longer a research topic. The CCR paper does not mention these points. http://www.sigcomm.org/sites/default/files/ccr/papers/2014/January/2567561-2567572.pdf IMO, ANRP prize is definitely doing the right thing. Thanks, Aaron " On the former: maybe I'm a hopeless idealist but educating people from companies or anywhere is something that senior academics (and that's me off the hook:-) should be doing even if not paid, but its quite understandable that different folks have different thresholds for what's acceptable there. On the latter, I think we could do some work to reduce the correctly described perception that the Internet is not a research topic, if we academics did some more (but not exclusively) realistic research, e.g., if we no longer accepted "my non-reproducible ns-2 thing is better than yours" as justifying a publication that might help push researchers to work more with the real Internet and might eventually leak over into funders brains. (There are some folks doing that kind of good work and e.g. the ANRP prizes are encouraging that I hope.) S. " ----------- http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~ad707/ --089e01182544a17ad604f455e4eb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 10/03/14 20:35, Stephen Farre= ll wrote:
I think the parts of the CCR article I'd question are the assert=
ions
that providing free consulting is objectionable (don't recall if that
was in CCR or just Joe's mail) and that the Internet is no longer a
research topic.


The CCR paper does not mention these points.
= http://www.sigcomm.org/sites/default/files/ccr/pape= rs/2014/January/2567561-2567572.pdf

IMO, ANRP prize is definitely doing the right thing.

Thanks,
Aaron

"
= 
On the former: maybe I'm a hopeless idealist but educating people
from companies or anywhere is something that senior academics (and
that's me off the hook:-) should be doing even if not paid, but its
quite understandable that different folks have different thresholds
for what's acceptable there.

On the latter, I think we could do some work to reduce the correctly
described perception that the Internet is not a research topic, if
we academics did some more (but not exclusively) realistic research,
e.g., if we no longer accepted "my non-reproducible ns-2 thing is
better than yours" as justifying a publication that might help push
researchers to work more with the real Internet and might eventually
leak over into funders brains. (There are some folks doing that kind
of good work and e.g. the ANRP prizes are encouraging that I hope.)

S.
"

--089e01182544a17ad604f455e4eb-- From nobody Tue Mar 11 13:10:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87D511A07EC for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 13:10:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kKRkeYpTPh0w for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 13:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22d.google.com (mail-wg0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::22d]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB8C71A07D4 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 13:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f45.google.com with SMTP id l18so10055183wgh.28 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 13:10:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=5bo3YmneEwcr7DlU0VZ1WMDIMveHfF0QrxgSXBI9ZvU=; b=yj8Z/4H4tVNFxRWFWLFRS1y0NAKhnTQFecM6FEfNbik1CuFGVtl+j5KV0DxJ/yJTaB ngoL1T12wT98mjVdpepmNghUouU1eEEUSX/MnwwuN3tOoZJoMjDkDaYQKppLHd5tH7pC m59j0N+8UI1vS/GTG35n2MCNicdW3p4OCjrh1DRTiUTEEO3xMvYuiy9ZCGW02slx2Swn CkmowAh5kVITL3EWbvOaM3Qz+43N9VUcq57Ej99zHsfxVOtnmky2fulbNB2MvNHXjMkX mr6zQIx0UPA4rbFV2dR4FhgkkbKrx5hJLIYwalDZIuxkzoXSNGh6zHRjaU6lkuOUlcak 63fw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.91.164 with SMTP id cf4mr4719781wib.37.1394568605688; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 13:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.18.147 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 13:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 01:40:05 +0530 Message-ID: From: Niranjan U To: diversity@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043893435b6bde04f45a4e58 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/pi68hHf0jqOFX4VdbmE4a-PBJfY Subject: Re: [Diversity] Mentor program (was at IETF list; IETF-89 summary article X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 20:10:14 -0000 --f46d043893435b6bde04f45a4e58 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi, Does IETF offer a remote mentoring program? In case it's not there, any specific reason why the mentoring is only available for f2f interactions? Sincerely, Niranjan > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Abdussalam Baryun > To: "diversity@ietf.org" > Cc: IETF Chair > Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 12:09:26 +0100 > Subject: [Diversity] Mentor program (was at IETF list; IETF-89 summary > article > Hi Jari (IETF Chair), > > Sorry changed addressed to posted to diversity list not IETF, to focus my > input and to not get attacks from IETF participants. Also I want to know if > IETF have attracted more newcomers/mentors in this 89 meeting through the > mentor program. However, I still think that some old-comers need mentoring > as well to help them remember the IETF vision. Question below, > > On Monday, March 10, 2014, IETF Chair wrote: > >> Thank you all for participating and making the IETF week a success! With >> the week now over, I wanted to write a brief summary of the main >> discussions from my perspective. Here: >> >> http://www.ietf.org/blog/2014/03/ietf-89-summary/ >> >> What did you find noteworthy in the meeting? Any surprises, unexpected >> difficulties, or opportunities for new good things? > > > How did the mentoring program go so far within IETF89. I would like to > know how many mentors volunteering and how many newcomers are using such > service. Please add me in the count :-) because I am already having one, > and at IETF89 meeting I meat volunteer mentor. > > Thanks > AB > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: IETF Chair > To: Abdussalam Baryun > Cc: diversity@ietf.org > Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 13:17:06 +0200 > Subject: Re: [Diversity] Mentor program (was at IETF list; IETF-89 summary > article > AB: There were 20 mentor-mentee pairs, IIRC. > > Jari > > > > > --f46d043893435b6bde04f45a4e58 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Does IETF offer a remote mentoring program? I= n case it's not there, any specific reason why the mentoring is only av= ailable for f2f interactions?

Sincerely,
Niranjan

= =A0
---------- Forwarded message ------= ----
From:=A0Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
To:=A0"diversity@ietf.org" <diversity@ietf.org>
Cc:=A0IETF Chair <chair@ietf.org&g= t;
Date:=A0Tue, 11 Mar 2014 12:09:26 +0100
Subject:=A0[Diversity] Men= tor program (was at IETF list; IETF-89 summary article
Hi Jari (IETF Cha= ir),

Sorry changed addressed to=A0posted to diversity list not IE= TF, to focus my input and to=A0not=A0get attacks from IETF participants. Al= so=A0I want to know if IETF have attracted more newcomers/mentors in=A0this= 89=A0meeting=A0through the mentor=A0program.=A0However, I still think that= some=A0old-comers need mentoring as well to help them remember the IETF vi= sion.=A0Question below,

On Monday, March 10, 2014, IETF Chair wrote:
Thank you all for participating and making the IETF week a su= ccess! With the week now over, I wanted to write a brief summary of the mai= n discussions from my perspective. Here:

http://www.ietf.org/blog/2014/03/ietf-89-summary/

What did you find noteworthy in the meeting? Any surprises, unexpected diff= iculties, or opportunities for new good things?

=
=A0How did the mentoring program go so far within IETF89.=A0I would li= ke to know how many mentors volunteering=A0and how many newcomers are using= such service. Please add me in the count :-)=A0because I am already having= one, and at IETF89 meeting I meat volunteer mentor.=A0

Thanks
AB


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=A0IETF Chair <<= a href=3D"mailto:chair@ietf.org">chair@ietf.org>
To:=A0Abdussalam= Baryun <abdussalambaryun@= gmail.com>
Cc:=A0diversity@ietf.org
Date:= =A0Tue, 11 Mar 2014 13:17:06 +0200
Subject:=A0Re: [Diversity] Mentor pro= gram (was at IETF list; IETF-89 summary article
AB: There were 20 mentor= -mentee pairs, IIRC.

Jari




--f46d043893435b6bde04f45a4e58-- From nobody Tue Mar 11 22:31:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC0781A08A6 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 17:45:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.855 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.855 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=1.592, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id leKDOntZblK6 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 17:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hubrelay-rd.bt.com (hubrelay-rd.bt.com [62.239.224.98]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F9431A089B for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 17:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EVMHR01-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net (193.113.108.40) by EVMHR66-UKRD.bt.com (10.187.101.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 12 Mar 2014 00:45:38 +0000 Received: from EPHR01-UKIP.domain1.systemhost.net (147.149.196.177) by EVMHR01-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net (193.113.108.40) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.297.1; Wed, 12 Mar 2014 00:45:33 +0000 Received: from bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk (132.146.168.158) by EPHR01-UKIP.domain1.systemhost.net (147.149.196.177) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Wed, 12 Mar 2014 00:45:29 +0000 Received: from BTP075694.jungle.bt.co.uk ([10.111.170.19]) by bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk (8.13.5/8.12.8) with ESMTP id s2C0jPC0003654; Wed, 12 Mar 2014 00:45:27 GMT Message-ID: <201403120045.s2C0jPC0003654@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 19:54:15 +0000 To: Joe Touch From: Bob Briscoe In-Reply-To: <531E0CDF.3050702@isi.edu> References: <530D0C15.2070208@isi.edu> <15e401cf3c86$db5552c0$91fff840$@olddog.co.uk> <531DF91F.6050104@isi.edu> <531E0608.1070701@cs.tcd.ie> <531E085C.4000100@isi.edu> <531E0CDF.3050702@isi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_132330905==.ALT" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 132.146.168.158 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/VgEiVWINqdSObw96QMfHVdpXxHY X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 22:31:39 -0700 Cc: irtf-discuss@irtf.org, adrian@olddog.co.uk, diversity@ietf.org, Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Diversity] [irtf-discuss] Bridging the Gap between Internet Standardization and Networking Research X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 00:45:47 -0000 --=====================_132330905==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Joe, Perhaps the US research funding agencies could learn something from the EC, which offers both academic and industrial research institutions 100% of the cost of dissemination of the outputs of an EC research project into standards bodies. At least that is how Framework 7 funding now works, but this is now starting to be superceded by Horizon 2020. I believe the H2020 model is to fund all the research and dissemination 100%, but excluding overheads. It's still hard to have to shepherd your research through years of standardisation, given typical research projects last ~3 years. First, of course, you have to budget for dissemination up front. But if you start out knowing you will need to standardise outputs, it is possible to plan this, or to initiate a follow-on project that majors on standardisation and implementation (the following earlier CCR article discusses this): Bagnulo Braun, M., Eardley, P., Eggert, L. & Winter, R., "How to Contribute Research Results to Internet Standardization," Computer Communication Review 41(3):10--13 (July 2011) It was also published as an IRTF RFC: Eardley, P., Eggert, L., Bagnulo Braun, M. & Winter, R., "How to Contribute Research Results to Internet Standardization," Internet Research Task Force Request for Comments rfc6147 (November 2011) Bob At 19:05 10/03/2014, Joe Touch wrote: >One additional point on teaching... > >On 3/10/2014 11:45 AM, Joe Touch wrote: >> >> >>On 3/10/2014 11:35 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >>... >>>I think the parts of the CCR article I'd question are the assertions >>>that providing free consulting is objectionable (don't recall if that >>>was in CCR or just Joe's mail) and that the Internet is no longer a >>>research topic. >>> >>>On the former: maybe I'm a hopeless idealist but educating people >>>from companies or anywhere is something that senior academics (and >>>that's me off the hook:-) should be doing even if not paid, but its >>>quite understandable that different folks have different thresholds >>>for what's acceptable there. > >Additionally, academics are paid to teach students at their own >universities, not to roam the world performing unpaid service -- any >more than programmers at commercial companies are expected to spend >their spare time writing programs for others. > >Our jobs and our employers have priorities and a market, whether >we're academics or in industry. > >Joe ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe, BT --=====================_132330905==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Joe,

Perhaps the US research funding agencies could learn something from the EC, which offers both academic and industrial research institutions 100% of the cost of dissemination of the outputs of an EC research project into standards bodies.

At least that is how Framework 7 funding now works, but this is now starting to be superceded by Horizon 2020. I believe the H2020 model is to fund all the research and dissemination 100%, but excluding overheads.

It's still hard to have to shepherd your research through years of standardisation, given typical research projects last ~3 years. First, of course, you have to budget for dissemination up front. But if you start out knowing you will need to standardise outputs, it is possible to plan this, or to initiate a follow-on project that majors on standardisation and implementation (the following earlier CCR article discusses this):

Bagnulo Braun, M., Eardley, P., Eggert, L. & Winter, R., "How to Contribute Research Results to Internet Standardization," Computer Communication Review 41(3):10--13 (July 2011)

It was also published as an IRTF RFC:
Eardley, P., Eggert, L., Bagnulo Braun, M. & Winter, R., "How to Contribute Research Results to Internet Standardization," Internet Research Task Force Request for Comments rfc6147 (November 2011)



Bob

At 19:05 10/03/2014, Joe Touch wrote:
One additional point on teaching...

On 3/10/2014 11:45 AM, Joe Touch wrote:


On 3/10/2014 11:35 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote:
...
I think the parts of the CCR article I'd question are the assertions
that providing free consulting is objectionable (don't recall if that
was in CCR or just Joe's mail) and that the Internet is no longer a
research topic.

On the former: maybe I'm a hopeless idealist but educating people
from companies or anywhere is something that senior academics (and
that's me off the hook:-) should be doing even if not paid, but its
quite understandable that different folks have different thresholds
for what's acceptable there.

Additionally, academics are paid to teach students at their own universities, not to roam the world performing unpaid service -- any more than programmers at commercial companies are expected to spend their spare time writing programs for others.

Our jobs and our employers have priorities and a market, whether we're academics or in industry.

Joe

________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe,                                                  BT --=====================_132330905==.ALT-- From nobody Wed Mar 12 17:36:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA1D1A07A6; Wed, 12 Mar 2014 17:36:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vqBBX2kgclHz; Wed, 12 Mar 2014 17:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A709E1A07C7; Wed, 12 Mar 2014 17:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.160.81] (nib.isi.edu [128.9.160.81]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2D0ZF1H009941 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 12 Mar 2014 17:35:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5320FD46.3030101@isi.edu> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 17:35:18 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bob Briscoe References: <530D0C15.2070208@isi.edu> <15e401cf3c86$db5552c0$91fff840$@olddog.co.uk> <531DF91F.6050104@isi.edu> <531E0608.1070701@cs.tcd.ie> <531E085C.4000100@isi.edu> <531E0CDF.3050702@isi.edu> <201403120045.s2C0jPC0003654@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <201403120045.s2C0jPC0003654@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/bj8KCSpLXKRVqVVcIecyqos7k4w Cc: irtf-discuss@irtf.org, adrian@olddog.co.uk, diversity@ietf.org, Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Diversity] [irtf-discuss] Bridging the Gap between Internet Standardization and Networking Research X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 00:36:33 -0000 On 3/11/2014 12:54 PM, Bob Briscoe wrote: > Joe, > > Perhaps the US research funding agencies could learn something from the > EC, which offers both academic and industrial research institutions 100% > of the cost of dissemination of the outputs of an EC research project > into standards bodies. The US sources don't balk at transferring technology into the standards organizations; that was the source of much of my past participation.. However, they don't support me to help review what has become a denial-of-service attack flood of drafts in certain areas, especially when those drafts come from large organizations that IMO ought to do some level of internal training and review before flooding the IETF with their newbies who expect free training. Joe From nobody Thu Mar 13 12:40:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4C021A08D3 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 12:40:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DZZ2MWx1fe0Y for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 12:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yh0-x233.google.com (mail-yh0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c01::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F9451A07CF for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 12:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yh0-f51.google.com with SMTP id f10so1552757yha.24 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 12:39:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=6LUNBOjhmDXNWez8V2+GS6aNLwhp1klYnPV4Iu3nfv0=; b=noJwnDhSjSGmsEY+KUOEXrYdYYtqHQDQfoaJzYwi80BUcZOpqW7Pyvqa5NE3Hp5T+g Xh2tz7emriXEcx3H/7rDfxGihjyrALJezpVdybO9QFKaw15h9TQuyTVzp+Mm9XrHCaW5 CwoC1DH92jetZEdFffZvEufPoNkqXLs3JB/287StNbKoJqJtdAsJ6FCUvyN2J7vHA+t7 /hn2LvQuIt1GUxuWz2jeV+EoQg+AHY2pLLLm4DOO2hUmHSvVe/+TysTUPTafG/e5M59M XYEcievgS3iUTPFxLPWY8kc5KhQxO6AD9M0OhL4E7x6pmCtrg7qOT2Z7fjtAfAnlAsP1 ma0g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.169.33 with SMTP id m21mr4393877yhl.137.1394739591472; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 12:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.170.202.7 with HTTP; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 12:39:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 19:39:51 +0000 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: Niranjan U Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf303f660ee76a9904f4821dd4 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/1gEK9riyirMGyNTa6UIwOXN_5vY Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Mentor program (was at IETF list; IETF-89 summary article X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 19:40:01 -0000 --20cf303f660ee76a9904f4821dd4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 If you need any help I don't mind assisting remote participants. IMHO, The most important diversity in IETF is to have more remote participants. AB On Tuesday, March 11, 2014, Niranjan U wrote: > Hi, > > Does IETF offer a remote mentoring program? In case it's not there, any > specific reason why the mentoring is only available for f2f interactions? > > Sincerely, > Niranjan > > > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Abdussalam Baryun >> > >> To: "diversity@ietf.org" >> > >> Cc: IETF Chair >> > >> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 12:09:26 +0100 >> Subject: [Diversity] Mentor program (was at IETF list; IETF-89 summary >> article >> Hi Jari (IETF Chair), >> >> Sorry changed addressed to posted to diversity list not IETF, to focus my >> input and to not get attacks from IETF participants. Also I want to know if >> IETF have attracted more newcomers/mentors in this 89 meeting through the >> mentor program. However, I still think that some old-comers need mentoring >> as well to help them remember the IETF vision. Question below, >> >> On Monday, March 10, 2014, IETF Chair wrote: >> >>> Thank you all for participating and making the IETF week a success! With >>> the week now over, I wanted to write a brief summary of the main >>> discussions from my perspective. Here: >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/blog/2014/03/ietf-89-summary/ >>> >>> What did you find noteworthy in the meeting? Any surprises, unexpected >>> difficulties, or opportunities for new good things? >> >> >> How did the mentoring program go so far within IETF89. I would like to >> know how many mentors volunteering and how many newcomers are using such >> service. Please add me in the count :-) because I am already having one, >> and at IETF89 meeting I meat volunteer mentor. >> >> Thanks >> AB >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: IETF Chair >> > >> To: Abdussalam Baryun >> > >> Cc: diversity@ietf.org >> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 13:17:06 +0200 >> Subject: Re: [Diversity] Mentor program (was at IETF list; IETF-89 >> summary article >> AB: There were 20 mentor-mentee pairs, IIRC. >> >> Jari >> >> >> >> >> --20cf303f660ee76a9904f4821dd4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you need any help I don't mind assisting remote participants. IMHO,= =A0The most important diversity in IETF is to have more remote participants= .=A0


AB

On Tuesday, March 11, 2014, Niranjan U w= rote:
=
Hi,

Does IETF offe= r a remote mentoring program? In case it's not there, any specific reas= on why the mentoring is only available for f2f interactions?

Sincerely,
Niranjan

= =A0
---------- Forwarded message ------= ----
From:=A0Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryu= n@gmail.com>
To:=A0"diversity@ietf.org= " <diversity@ietf.org>
Cc:=A0IETF Chair <chair@ietf.org>
Date:=A0Tu= e, 11 Mar 2014 12:09:26 +0100
Subject:=A0[Diversity] Mentor program (was= at IETF list; IETF-89 summary article
Hi Jari (IETF Chair),

Sorry changed addressed to=A0posted to diversity list not IE= TF, to focus my input and to=A0not=A0get attacks from IETF participants. Al= so=A0I want to know if IETF have attracted more newcomers/mentors in=A0this= 89=A0meeting=A0through the mentor=A0program.=A0However, I still think that= some=A0old-comers need mentoring as well to help them remember the IETF vi= sion.=A0Question below,

On Monday, March 10, 2014, IETF Chair wrote:
Thank you all for participating and making the IETF week a su= ccess! With the week now over, I wanted to write a brief summary of the mai= n discussions from my perspective. Here:

http://www.ietf.org/blog/2014/03/ietf-89-summary/

What did you find noteworthy in the meeting? Any surprises, unexpected diff= iculties, or opportunities for new good things?

=
=A0How did the mentoring program go so far within IETF89.=A0I would li= ke to know how many mentors volunteering=A0and how many newcomers are using= such service. Please add me in the count :-)=A0because I am already having= one, and at IETF89 meeting I meat volunteer mentor.=A0

Thanks
AB


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=A0IETF Chair <<= a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','chair@ietf.org');" t= arget=3D"_blank">chair@ietf.org>
To:=A0Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
Cc:=A0diversity@ietf.org
Date:=A0Tue, 11 Mar 2= 014 13:17:06 +0200
Subject:=A0Re: [Diversity] Mentor program (was at IET= F list; IETF-89 summary article
AB: There were 20 mentor-mentee pairs, IIRC.

Jari




--20cf303f660ee76a9904f4821dd4-- From nobody Thu Mar 13 12:55:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9E191A0763 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 12:55:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.337 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.337 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 41Nm9XJ4P7pd for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 12:55:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E7371A07CF for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 12:55:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.224.142.145]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s2DJtJTB009331 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 13 Mar 2014 12:55:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1394740538; bh=CTn/HeAzC5zsvgVIyqRXRPTlCuBsbLk3uMSh2CeFJeQ=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=qvU4TO4ypj/eJvzVeUYYArq/q/5smcVttANemHbVNqBKBMRiInegeUI7HVCyq0mDj gUMAPSbZPet/uyZPP+SXk7advdwNIE52FaOQZNPqZnzAx6dMCESJXaeJ17nBnxCQI+ db5RmGuf5DprZSdFiYAIT06AIyrN7Fe56wNPfVig= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1394740538; i=@elandsys.com; bh=CTn/HeAzC5zsvgVIyqRXRPTlCuBsbLk3uMSh2CeFJeQ=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=gFExux8Udr0LdZiePAjtSnuhfd8t9mY0Yp/mbLRkGSyR/bUoccf5FsPpaOA5qpWUk ag66IGhbls3pHN+U88+Y9hBe+i/ZdhebTBnNX/4lTJvg8Cuuaxd1gQf57Al4iIkPjU axJCrLHnAk+v0heEkjCYQaWdK3E0Nh9lQcjDmFQg= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20140313124648.0b58de80@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 12:48:20 -0700 To: Niranjan U , diversity@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/vAisZmUBNJaJHoUIGkIw7QFMWIk Subject: Re: [Diversity] Mentor program (was at IETF list; IETF-89 summary article X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 19:55:51 -0000 Hi Niranjan, At 13:10 11-03-2014, Niranjan U wrote: >Does IETF offer a remote mentoring program? In case it's not there, >any specific reason why the mentoring is only available for f2f interactions? There isn't any remote mentoring program. I don't know the answer to the second question. Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Thu Mar 13 13:15:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF8AE1A03E2 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 13:15:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.553 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.553 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.347, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QdPZyfQ-fU_I for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 13:15:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp5.iomartmail.com (asmtp5.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.176]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E312F1A0640 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 13:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp5.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp5.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2DKF2ER015908; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 20:15:02 GMT Received: from 950129200 (16.17.90.92.rev.sfr.net [92.90.17.16]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp5.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2DKEwZn015775 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 13 Mar 2014 20:14:59 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'S Moonesamy'" , "'Niranjan U'" , References: <6.2.5.6.2.20140313124648.0b58de80@resistor.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20140313124648.0b58de80@resistor.net> Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 20:14:58 -0000 Message-ID: <208701cf3ef8$ea8267a0$bf8736e0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQEJv+GGDCu61phvG22KEoUit3uhvwLO+YEcnFP5RtA= Content-language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1576-7.5.0.1017-20564.001 X-TM-AS-Result: No--28.833-8.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--28.833-8.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: CNRFWnUKs8NDZFBd1jLr/i0UvD/exuSewx0jRRxcQfMhvFjBsLEZNEkZ p+s287TWT9nGAb6VEbWFjlZ3AY7mN90FJl9zMXJUgOqr/r0d+CxcSMp/1+Epp8ERvEDgTfEVnTf UJQr0sYo6TmythUVi9Qzbw1A6q85NudxwlNSkQzg7x2kIE2mYtRdqVG+mEWCutXl9IxEPXOr1a2 u0d4BotDEEIfCM+GrRwvpewXi00dghu4G5/VkGw0hEDfw/93BuUXlp1FHYSPXI9BHsOEzeNuLog 540bQq9j1mbw6/tKms8MXho6UtjB0qXm4MPqTr2ngIgpj8eDcC063Wh9WVqgqbyPFGTn+O41GcR AJRT6POOhzOa6g8KrZRMZUCEHkRt Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/u0mk6KisVA8aMmkhXr8BZXrEXo4 Subject: Re: [Diversity] Mentor program (was at IETF list; IETF-89 summary article X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 20:15:29 -0000 The mentoring program is new. It started with f2f mentoring t meetings because that was an easy point to start. The text says: > note that the mentoring program is only open to in-person attendees at this time which I take as an intention to at least consider extending it to remote mentoring. Until then (which is probably governed by the time availability of the coordinators) we can help people to find mentors on a case-by-case basis. So, Niranjan, tell us who you are and what technical topics are of interest to you and we can try to fix you up with someone who can help. Cheers, Adrian > -----Original Message----- > From: diversity [mailto:diversity-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of S Moonesamy > Sent: 13 March 2014 19:48 > To: Niranjan U; diversity@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Diversity] Mentor program (was at IETF list; IETF-89 summary article > > Hi Niranjan, > At 13:10 11-03-2014, Niranjan U wrote: > >Does IETF offer a remote mentoring program? In case it's not there, > >any specific reason why the mentoring is only available for f2f interactions? > > There isn't any remote mentoring program. I don't know the answer to > the second question. > > Regards, > S. Moonesamy > > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity From nobody Fri Mar 14 03:42:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A8BC1A0100 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 03:42:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x1kdEfle__gA for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 03:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yk0-x230.google.com (mail-yk0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BDF41A011B for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 03:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yk0-f176.google.com with SMTP id 19so6163733ykq.7 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 03:42:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=ZxrtMvwuOv3oNFSo9b4810kTc7K2W2+nmdke7XlKMAI=; b=LcbNtUWy6N3ksNp6ewddPcjtj1J0nIx1CclWCEUlShgZiL+JGQufImpN9MsVBnuCq+ SOfJ6pnS4JJ0EbhzoECNaAVY0Gn6y+0ujeqAW42wfQAtuJGxprt4lZCbc7f3A1QBL+19 bsO/SdLvxE+Nh59Etocw30WlbeJl0dofrLac5HThB+i0+HYfUQsaJzJ7D27FTTd/phW2 UOha27Ht0Z3rmTH+8swA4zgDaxvr62sL6SkmMPuIIPVRSPlYe5w1mXLx260q10cFm1Z6 y+Wx/Ypq6ONEoYnFOWsfq7Fnb6y1wAZTA6Gn/txp77NJlANlkoqOuK6zNlEarDT9pB/i Fc0Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.84.135 with SMTP id s7mr43558yhe.148.1394793727118; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 03:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.170.202.7 with HTTP; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 03:42:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5318AAB6.6050001@dcrocker.net> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20140305134027.0d8d0970@elandnews.com> <53184665.4010501@bbiw.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20140306064446.0b57c1e8@resistor.net> <5318AAB6.6050001@dcrocker.net> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 10:42:06 +0000 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: "dcrocker@bbiw.net" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf301b6877a3d3b304f48eb8fa Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/jqwM0ZUDkX3eBljhdBRjzXgJ--A Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , SM , Narelle Clark Subject: Re: [Diversity] Comments on draft-crocker-diversity-conduct-00 X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 10:42:18 -0000 --20cf301b6877a3d3b304f48eb8fa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thursday, March 6, 2014, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 3/6/2014 4:11 PM, SM wrote: > >> >> the system can help bring out >> the better outcome or improve the technical quality of the work. >> > > We have competing goals, competing understandings of capabilities and > limitations, and competing proposals. Each of these competitions is > inherent. So I do not believe we can avoid a fundamentally adversarial > framework, for any "interesting" situation. Many participants work for companies so their primary goals are their companies goals, then they can see IETF goals. Is their diversity in companies participating? > > The question is whether participants treat the competition as a basis for > healthy debate -- where the ultimate goal is the best result for the > community -- or whether they focus on the politics of winning. The issue is that IETF participants are not only individually participants volunteering but includes companies participation. So it is not about only debate-winning nor only IETF-competition, but includes getting some companies technologies/implementations as an IETF standard. > > I'll put it differently: bring the issues into the open, manage it, and >> choose an alternative. The problem with an uncomfortable topic is that >> it is not always well-managed. >> > > That implies that we reliably have good management for /comfortable/ > topics... (smiley) The IETF management is progressing (of IETF areas and WGs), and they may need more cooperation rules. However, management need to encourage diversity in discussions and in reviews, that will make IETF outputs more reliable and used worldwide. AB/ --20cf301b6877a3d3b304f48eb8fa Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thursday, March 6, 2014, Dave Crocker wrote:
On 3/6/2014 4:11 PM, SM wrote:

the system can help bring out
the better outcome or improve the technical quality of the work.

We have competing goals, competing understandings of capabilities and limit= ations, and competing proposals. =A0Each of these competitions is inherent.= =A0So I do not believe we can avoid a fundamentally adversarial framework,= for any "interesting" situation.

Many participants work for companies so their primary g= oals are their companies goals, then they can see IETF goals. Is their dive= rsity in companies participating?=A0
=A0

The question is whether participants treat the competition as a basis for h= ealthy debate -- where the ultimate goal is the best result for the communi= ty -- or whether they focus on the politics of winning.

The issue is that IETF=A0participants are not only=A0individ= ually participants=A0volunteering but includes companies participation. So = it is not about only debate-winning nor only IETF-competition, but includes= getting some=A0companies technologies/implementations=A0as an IETF=A0stand= ard.=A0
=A0

I'll put it differently: bring the issues into the open, manage it, and=
choose an alternative. =A0The problem with an uncomfortable topic is that it is not always well-managed.

That implies that we reliably have good management for /comfortable/ topics= ... =A0(smiley)

The IETF management is prog= ressing (of IETF=A0areas and WGs), and they=A0may=A0need=A0more cooperation= rules. However, management need to encourage diversity in=A0discussions an= d in=A0reviews, that will make IETF outputs=A0more reliable and used worldw= ide.=A0

AB/
--20cf301b6877a3d3b304f48eb8fa-- From nobody Wed Mar 26 12:25:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC9BF1A03C1 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 12:25:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RxRC7NWJTIj3 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 12:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x22b.google.com (mail-ob0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91E051A03A3 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 12:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f171.google.com with SMTP id wn1so3118113obc.30 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 12:25:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=q3v/jndGQzNK7K8JwmHBxVqLrgKJkMW5PfeBNHAinEc=; b=zmYWb9yhT7+fJo9jojwTdr9v+U7PDdDz1s/Wn6ENCSjeOslxjZwpumCZmnPdeEF+/Q 06kwq9kUBZ7271I8VYObWyVRENdh+4Re+0mcpyJJvR+kaYeDJ1QBIoI3jGgUVwzf3Vka 8BmBpwbefn1FqgPQcTCkxdXSozCy72Oj/BXiTawyg//aFhFbFYXsuV678gnU7naISK+r sy7ksSvwMAIq31UxuQ+X8SyIpNJOgm/mvBB93caIRjFb8tPq7iNHGphxFCQ4ZxT/5i82 WRMcpxNwK1AH2+2wz7X1KZAtAtBaf23wzCWuR7AlyeeYFulS5w9aGsuG+iGrcMq8y57s N48A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.230.135 with SMTP id sy7mr39323285obc.24.1395861939948; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 12:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.22.135 with HTTP; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 12:25:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <208701cf3ef8$ea8267a0$bf8736e0$@olddog.co.uk> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20140313124648.0b58de80@resistor.net> <208701cf3ef8$ea8267a0$bf8736e0$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 00:55:39 +0530 Message-ID: From: Niranjan U To: adrian@olddog.co.uk Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3367616175904f5876f6f Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/attmsr1QrN8iV8LmMnrzzmfa-a4 Cc: diversity@ietf.org, S Moonesamy Subject: Re: [Diversity] Mentor program (was at IETF list; IETF-89 summary article X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 19:25:44 -0000 --001a11c3367616175904f5876f6f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Adrian, Thanks a lot for your reply. I have been following IETF discussion threads for a few months but been a little apprehensive to participate in the discussions :). It would surely be great if you could help me connect with someone for remote mentoring. I am an internet entrepreneur and my interests are specifically in internet security - DNSOP, httpauth, oauth and websec. These directly relate to my work, and it is my goal to be able to participate deeply in the works of IETF, like reviewing and working on internet drafts. I would be glad to share more details, in conversations with potential mentors. ~ Niranjan On 14 March 2014 01:44, Adrian Farrel wrote: > The mentoring program is new. > It started with f2f mentoring t meetings because that was an easy point to > start. > The text says: > > note that the mentoring program is only open to in-person attendees at > this > time > which I take as an intention to at least consider extending it to remote > mentoring. > > Until then (which is probably governed by the time availability of the > coordinators) we can help people to find mentors on a case-by-case basis. > > So, Niranjan, tell us who you are and what technical topics are of > interest to > you and we can try to fix you up with someone who can help. > > Cheers, > Adrian > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: diversity [mailto:diversity-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of S > Moonesamy > > Sent: 13 March 2014 19:48 > > To: Niranjan U; diversity@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Diversity] Mentor program (was at IETF list; IETF-89 > summary > article > > > > Hi Niranjan, > > At 13:10 11-03-2014, Niranjan U wrote: > > >Does IETF offer a remote mentoring program? In case it's not there, > > >any specific reason why the mentoring is only available for f2f > interactions? > > > > There isn't any remote mentoring program. I don't know the answer to > > the second question. > > > > Regards, > > S. Moonesamy > > > > _______________________________________________ > > diversity mailing list > > diversity@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > > --001a11c3367616175904f5876f6f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Adrian,

Thanks a lot for your reply.= I have been following IETF discussion threads for a few months but been a = little apprehensive to participate in the discussions :). It would surely b= e great if you could help me connect with someone for remote mentoring.=A0<= /div>

I am an internet entrepreneur and my interests are spec= ifically in internet security - DNSOP, httpauth, oauth and websec. These di= rectly relate to my work, and it is my goal to be able to participate deepl= y in the works of IETF, like reviewing and working on internet drafts. I wo= uld be glad to share more details, in conversations with potential mentors.= =A0

~ Niranjan

On 14 March 2014 01:44, Adrian Farrel <adri= an@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
The mentoring program is new.
It started with f2f mentoring t meetings because that was an easy point to<= br> start.
The text says:
> =A0 note that the mentoring program is only open to in-person attendee= s at this
time
which I take as an intention to at least consider extending it to remote mentoring.

Until then (which is probably governed by the time availability of the
coordinators) we can help people to find mentors on a case-by-case basis.
So, Niranjan, tell us who you are and what technical topics are of interest= to
you and we can try to fix you up with someone who can help.

Cheers,
Adrian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: diversity [mailto:= diversity-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of S Moonesamy
> Sent: 13 March 2014 19:48
> To: Niranjan U; diversity@ietf.o= rg
> Subject: Re: [Diversity] Mentor program (was at IETF list; IETF-89 sum= mary
article
>
> Hi Niranjan,
> At 13:10 11-03-2014, Niranjan U wrote:
> >Does IETF offer a remote mentoring program? In case it's not t= here,
> >any specific reason why the mentoring is only available for f2f in= teractions?
>
> There isn't any remote mentoring program. =A0I don't know the = answer to
> the second question.
>
> Regards,
> S. Moonesamy
>
> _______________________________________________
> diversity mailing list
> diversity@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity


--001a11c3367616175904f5876f6f-- From nobody Wed Mar 26 12:47:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE4F31A0380 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 12:47:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XfqdCJ1sfkB4 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 12:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 388721A036F for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 12:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.224.152.194]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s2QJlAFs022356 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 26 Mar 2014 12:47:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1395863243; bh=JFTeas0OHJy59BzMGuEX259M1v1O90Zhvxve61ppWug=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=sbZsFJk2OPS9Xvl85JZ3BV1wD0TTDWTq+6nF9LPFhx3m2CuGW3fOsMXA5WwDXp4vb 0+S636mMeZQD6UVYUPzFiXW9WrRr+3H3lbGTsGzlafijynfomJqJ/Bkhp3RU508oEx c0n4e7j3iVm/SRmTimzyVsi+yYmScpMGmUnBrTPg= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1395863243; i=@elandsys.com; bh=JFTeas0OHJy59BzMGuEX259M1v1O90Zhvxve61ppWug=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=fEuudE5MYjj3jzfu5DDkXUsjljWuyKrO3uaZdLvowif1P7WWWrGcOvDZmVtJBAVZc EtP2zc3F4gnc+At70dh9OxzsZzyRWvqHHv3syWQwr2Jpgm8CAf/2vjuTk0pMAwWqK8 jwzVqjUD5AyhlXhWkbMUw95oSYv2vNo4XVdQjVkU= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20140326123415.0d788498@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 12:44:25 -0700 To: Niranjan U , adrian@olddog.co.uk From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20140313124648.0b58de80@resistor.net> <208701cf3ef8$ea8267a0$bf8736e0$@olddog.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/6r_gs7T6erX0DFGjS2ladRDdTLw Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Mentor program (was at IETF list; IETF-89 summary article X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 19:47:29 -0000 Hi Niranjan, At 12:25 26-03-2014, Niranjan U wrote: >I am an internet entrepreneur and my interests are specifically in >internet security - DNSOP, httpauth, oauth and websec. These >directly relate to my work, and it is my goal to be able to >participate deeply in the works of IETF, like reviewing and working >on internet drafts. I would be glad to share more details, in >conversations with potential mentors. Reviews of Internet-Drafts are usually welcome. It's a good way to start. HTTPAUTH is currently discussing about HTTP 2.0. There isn't a lot of controversy in WEBSEC. OAUTH completed the main part of the work. DNSOP is not an easy working group as most of the topics have been discussed repeatedly over the years. Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Wed Mar 26 15:45:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4781A1A03E0 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 15:45:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jlFHzjn1WuGI for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 15:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AEE61A03DC for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 15:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64913BE54; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 22:44:58 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N5pPb8NN62BS; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 22:44:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.87.48.12] (unknown [86.46.21.33]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3DD47BE3F; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 22:44:57 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <53335868.4010200@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 22:44:56 +0000 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: S Moonesamy , Niranjan U , adrian@olddog.co.uk References: <6.2.5.6.2.20140313124648.0b58de80@resistor.net> <208701cf3ef8$ea8267a0$bf8736e0$@olddog.co.uk> <6.2.5.6.2.20140326123415.0d788498@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20140326123415.0d788498@elandnews.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/diversity/HYUT9rFtm3XJkaPUSTm9wV7rSJI Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Mentor program (was at IETF list; IETF-89 summary article X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 22:45:04 -0000 Hi SM, On 03/26/2014 07:44 PM, S Moonesamy wrote: > > HTTPAUTH is currently discussing about HTTP 2.0. httpbis is doing that actually. httpauth is doing its much smaller job S.