
From nobody Thu Dec  1 14:05:03 2016
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From: IETF Secretariat <ietf-ipr@ietf.org>
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Subject: [DMM] IPR Disclosure Deutsche Telekom AG's Statement about IPR related to draft-ietf-dmm-fpc-cpdp
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Dear Marco Liebsch, Satoru Matsushima, Sri Gundavelli, Danny Moses, Lyle Bertz:


An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled "Protocol
for Forwarding Policy Configuration (FPC) in DMM" (draft-ietf-dmm-fpc-cpdp)
was submitted to the IETF Secretariat on  and has been posted on the "IETF Page
of Intellectual Property Rights Disclosures"
(https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2917/). The title of the IPR disclosure is
"Deutsche Telekom AG's Statement about IPR related to
draft-ietf-dmm-fpc-cpdp"


Thank you

IETF Secretariat


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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:04:25 -0800
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Cc: draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org, dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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Hi,

I like the goal of reducing network cost by allowing the use of IP
addresses that do not require network mobility, but we should not be doing
this by requesting IP addresses from the network, because this violates
IPv6 address assignment best practices.

Specifically, RFC 7934 recommends that a) the network should provide
multiple addresses from each prefix and b) the network should allow the
host to use new addresses without requiring explicit requests to the
network. This is in conflict with at least this text in the draft, which
says:

   In case an application
   requests one, the IP stack shall make an attempt to configure one by
   issuing a request to the network.  If the operation fails, the IP
   stack shall fail the associated socket request

One way to resolve this conflict would be to say that the network must not
assign individual addresses, but /64 (or shorter) prefixes. So if the
device desires to use fixed IPv6 addresses, then the network should give
the host a fixed IPv6 prefix from which the host can form as many addresses
as it wants.

I do not think we should advance this document until the conflicts are
resolved. This document is about IPv6 address assignment to mobile nodes,
and we should not publish a document about IPv6 address assignment that
conflicts with best current practices on IPv6 address assignment.

Regards,
Lorenzo

On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 12:56 PM, jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Folks,
>
> The authors of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-07
> and draft-sijeon-dmm-use-cases-api-source have come up with a merged
> document draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08.
>
> This email starts a 2 week WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08.
> The WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.
>
> Provide your comments, concerns and approvals to the email list (and
> hopefully also to IssueTracker).
>
> - Jouni & Dapeng
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From: *IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org>
> *Subject: **IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility*
> *Date: *November 28, 2016 at 12:51:34 PM PST
> *To: *<draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org>, <dmm-chairs@ietf.org>,
> <max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com>
> *Resent-From: *<alias-bounces@ietf.org>
> *Resent-To: *jouni.nospam@gmail.com, maxpassion@gmail.com
>
>
> The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility has been changed to
> "In WG Last Call" from "WG Document" by Jouni Korhonen:
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility/
>
>
> Comment:
> WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dmm mailing list
> dmm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>I like the goal of reducing network=
 cost by allowing the use of IP addresses that do not require network mobil=
ity, but we should not be doing this by requesting IP addresses from the ne=
twork, because this violates IPv6 address assignment best practices.</div><=
div><br></div><div>Specifically, RFC 7934 recommends that a) the network sh=
ould provide multiple addresses from each prefix and b) the network should =
allow the host to use new addresses without requiring explicit requests to =
the network. This is in conflict with at least this text in the draft, whic=
h says:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0In case an application</div><=
div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0requests one, the IP stack shall make an attempt to config=
ure one by</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0issuing a request to the network.=C2=A0 I=
f the operation fails, the IP<br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0stack shall fail t=
he associated socket request</div><div><br></div><div>One way to resolve th=
is conflict would be to say that the network must not assign individual add=
resses, but /64 (or shorter) prefixes. So if the device desires to use fixe=
d IPv6 addresses, then the network should give the host a fixed IPv6 prefix=
 from which the host can form as many addresses as it wants.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>I do not think we should advance this document until the conflic=
ts are resolved. This document is about IPv6 address assignment to mobile n=
odes, and we should not publish a document about IPv6 address assignment th=
at conflicts with best current practices on IPv6 address assignment.</div><=
div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Lorenzo</div></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 12:56 PM, j=
ouni.nospam <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>Folks,</div=
><div><br></div><div>The authors of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-0=
7 and=C2=A0draft-sijeon-dmm-use-<wbr>cases-api-source have come up with a m=
erged document=C2=A0draft-ietf-dmm-<wbr>ondemand-mobility-08.</div><div><br=
></div><div>This email starts a 2 week WGLC for=C2=A0draft-ietf-dmm-ondeman=
d-<wbr>mobility-08.</div><div>The WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.</=
div><div><br></div><div>Provide your comments, concerns and approvals to th=
e email list (and hopefully also to IssueTracker).</div><div><br></div><div=
>- Jouni &amp; Dapeng</div><div><br></div><br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"=
cite"><div>Begin forwarded message:</div><br class=3D"m_-687300303373580258=
6Apple-interchange-newline"><div style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;m=
argin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system=
-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>From: <=
/b></span><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Hel=
vetica,sans-serif">IETF Secretariat &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-secretariat-=
reply@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&=
gt;<br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bo=
ttom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,He=
lvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Subject: </b></=
span><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetic=
a,sans-serif"><b>IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mob=
ility</b><br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;mar=
gin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-f=
ont,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Date: </b=
></span><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helve=
tica,sans-serif">November 28, 2016 at 12:51:34 PM PST<br></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"=
><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>To: </b></span><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ie=
tf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-c=
hairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com" target=3D"_blank">max.ldp@alibaba-inc.c=
om</a>&gt;<br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;ma=
rgin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-=
font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Resent-F=
rom: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Ne=
ue,Helvetica,sans-serif">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alias-bounces@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">alias-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br></span></div><div style=3D"=
margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;=
color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Resent-To: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:=
-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif"><a href=3D"mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>, <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:maxpassion@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">maxpassion@gmail.com</=
a><br></span></div><br><div><div><br>The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-dmm-on=
demand-<wbr>mobility has been changed to<br>&quot;In WG Last Call&quot; fro=
m &quot;WG Document&quot; by Jouni Korhonen:<br><br><a href=3D"https://data=
tracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility/" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility/=
</a><br><br><br>Comment:<br>WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.<br></di=
v></div></blockquote></div><br></div><br>______________________________<wbr=
>_________________<br>
dmm mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/dmm</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From nobody Fri Dec  2 12:09:03 2016
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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 12:08:30 -0800
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To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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But you have that problem with IP addresses as well, right? I don't see how
"assigning a prefix with certain properties" requires more state in the
network than "assigning an IP address with certain properties".

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
wrote:

> Providing any kind of mobility service for a prefix will require some
> state somewhere in the network.  It would be great to avoid an allocation
> request / response for the prefix, but the state has to be created somehow
> before the UE can use the prefix and it has to be reclaimed eventually
> after the UE stops using the prefix (which may not be until well after it
> disconnects from the current link and moves to another one).
>
>
>
> Would welcome any suggestions on how to manage this state.
>
>
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Lorenzo Colitti
> *Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2016 12:04 PM
> *To:* jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I like the goal of reducing network cost by allowing the use of IP
> addresses that do not require network mobility, but we should not be doing
> this by requesting IP addresses from the network, because this violates
> IPv6 address assignment best practices.
>
>
>
> Specifically, RFC 7934 recommends that a) the network should provide
> multiple addresses from each prefix and b) the network should allow the
> host to use new addresses without requiring explicit requests to the
> network. This is in conflict with at least this text in the draft, which
> says:
>
>
>
>    In case an application
>
>    requests one, the IP stack shall make an attempt to configure one by
>
>    issuing a request to the network.  If the operation fails, the IP
>
>    stack shall fail the associated socket request
>
>
>
> One way to resolve this conflict would be to say that the network must not
> assign individual addresses, but /64 (or shorter) prefixes. So if the
> device desires to use fixed IPv6 addresses, then the network should give
> the host a fixed IPv6 prefix from which the host can form as many addresses
> as it wants.
>
>
>
> I do not think we should advance this document until the conflicts are
> resolved. This document is about IPv6 address assignment to mobile nodes,
> and we should not publish a document about IPv6 address assignment that
> conflicts with best current practices on IPv6 address assignment.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 12:56 PM, jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> The authors of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-07
> and draft-sijeon-dmm-use-cases-api-source have come up with a merged
> document draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08.
>
>
>
> This email starts a 2 week WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08.
>
> The WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.
>
>
>
> Provide your comments, concerns and approvals to the email list (and
> hopefully also to IssueTracker).
>
>
>
> - Jouni & Dapeng
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>
>
> *From: *IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org>
>
> *Subject: IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility*
>
> *Date: *November 28, 2016 at 12:51:34 PM PST
>
> *To: *<draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org>, <dmm-chairs@ietf.org>,
> <max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com>
>
> *Resent-From: *<alias-bounces@ietf.org>
>
> *Resent-To: *jouni.nospam@gmail.com, maxpassion@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility has been changed to
> "In WG Last Call" from "WG Document" by Jouni Korhonen:
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility/
>
>
> Comment:
> WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dmm mailing list
> dmm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm
>
>
>

--001a1143ff7ab4ad8e0542b28137
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">But you have that problem with IP addresses as well, right=
? I don&#39;t see how &quot;assigning a prefix with certain properties&quot=
; requires more state in the network than &quot;assigning an IP address wit=
h certain properties&quot;.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Peter McCann <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Pete=
r.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
>





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-8739883065450763618WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Providing any kind of mobility servic=
e for a prefix will require some state somewhere in the network.=C2=A0 It w=
ould be great to avoid an allocation request / response
 for the prefix, but the state has to be created somehow before the UE can =
use the prefix and it has to be reclaimed eventually after the UE stops usi=
ng the prefix (which may not be until well after it disconnects from the cu=
rrent link and moves to another
 one).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Would welcome any suggestions on how =
to manage this state.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">-Pete<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> dmm [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:=
dmm-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Lorenzo Colitti<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 12:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I like the goal of reducing network cost by allowing=
 the use of IP addresses that do not require network mobility, but we shoul=
d not be doing this by requesting IP addresses from the network, because th=
is violates IPv6 address assignment
 best practices.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Specifically, RFC 7934 recommends that a) the networ=
k should provide multiple addresses from each prefix and b) the network sho=
uld allow the host to use new addresses without requiring explicit requests=
 to the network. This is in conflict
 with at least this text in the draft, which says:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0In case an application<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0requests one, the IP stack shall make a=
n attempt to configure one by<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0issuing a request to the network.=C2=A0=
 If the operation fails, the IP<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0stack shall fail the associated socket =
request<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">One way to resolve this conflict would be to say tha=
t the network must not assign individual addresses, but /64 (or shorter) pr=
efixes. So if the device desires to use fixed IPv6 addresses, then the netw=
ork should give the host a fixed IPv6
 prefix from which the host can form as many addresses as it wants.<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I do not think we should advance this document until=
 the conflicts are resolved. This document is about IPv6 address assignment=
 to mobile nodes, and we should not publish a document about IPv6 address a=
ssignment that conflicts with best
 current practices on IPv6 address assignment.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Lorenzo<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 12:56 PM, jouni.nospam &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gma=
il.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Folks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The authors of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility=
-07 and=C2=A0draft-sijeon-dmm-use-<wbr>cases-api-source have come up with a=
 merged document=C2=A0draft-ietf-dmm-<wbr>ondemand-mobility-08.<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This email starts a 2 week WGLC for=C2=A0draft-ietf-=
dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Provide your comments, concerns and approvals to the=
 email list (and hopefully also to IssueTracker).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Jouni &amp; Dapeng<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Begin forwarded message:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">From: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">IETF Secre=
tariat &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Subject: IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr=
>mobility</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Date: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">November 2=
8, 2016 at 12:51:34 PM PST</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">To: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dr=
aft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:dmm-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com" target=3D"_blank">max.ldp@a=
libaba-inc.com</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Resent-From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:alias-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">alias-bounces@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Resent-To:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a =
href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail=
.com</a>,
<a href=3D"mailto:maxpassion@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">maxpassion@gmail.=
com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility has been changed=
 to<br>
&quot;In WG Last Call&quot; from &quot;WG Document&quot; by Jouni Korhonen:=
<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobilit=
y/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-ietf-dmm-=
ondemand-<wbr>mobility/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Comment:<br>
WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
dmm mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/dmm</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a1143ff7ab4ad8e0542b28137--


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From: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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From: Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya2012@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 14:15:26 -0600
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To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dmm/KM4CNO_0BWI-TLApGfZntyfXV9M>
Cc: "draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org>, "dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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Lorenzo,
It is 3GPP practice (or law, should I say) is to assign a prefix in
IPv6 to the UE. That is what Peter is talking about.

Regards,

Behcet

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 2:12 PM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com> wrot=
e:
> With a fixed access network the prefix can be assigned to the link and us=
ed
> by anyone who joins the link.
>
>
>
> With a prefix offering mobility the prefix belongs to the mobile host and
> needs to move with it.  There aren=E2=80=99t enough prefixes (even in IPv=
6) to
> assign a permanent prefix to each UE for every topological attachment poi=
nt
> that it might visit or start a session from.
>
>
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 02, 2016 3:09 PM
> To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> Cc: jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>;
> draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> But you have that problem with IP addresses as well, right? I don't see h=
ow
> "assigning a prefix with certain properties" requires more state in the
> network than "assigning an IP address with certain properties".
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> wrote:
>
> Providing any kind of mobility service for a prefix will require some sta=
te
> somewhere in the network.  It would be great to avoid an allocation reque=
st
> / response for the prefix, but the state has to be created somehow before
> the UE can use the prefix and it has to be reclaimed eventually after the=
 UE
> stops using the prefix (which may not be until well after it disconnects
> from the current link and moves to another one).
>
>
>
> Would welcome any suggestions on how to manage this state.
>
>
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> From: dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lorenzo Colitti
> Sent: Friday, December 02, 2016 12:04 PM
> To: jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
> Cc: draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I like the goal of reducing network cost by allowing the use of IP addres=
ses
> that do not require network mobility, but we should not be doing this by
> requesting IP addresses from the network, because this violates IPv6 addr=
ess
> assignment best practices.
>
>
>
> Specifically, RFC 7934 recommends that a) the network should provide
> multiple addresses from each prefix and b) the network should allow the h=
ost
> to use new addresses without requiring explicit requests to the network.
> This is in conflict with at least this text in the draft, which says:
>
>
>
>    In case an application
>
>    requests one, the IP stack shall make an attempt to configure one by
>
>    issuing a request to the network.  If the operation fails, the IP
>
>    stack shall fail the associated socket request
>
>
>
> One way to resolve this conflict would be to say that the network must no=
t
> assign individual addresses, but /64 (or shorter) prefixes. So if the dev=
ice
> desires to use fixed IPv6 addresses, then the network should give the hos=
t a
> fixed IPv6 prefix from which the host can form as many addresses as it
> wants.
>
>
>
> I do not think we should advance this document until the conflicts are
> resolved. This document is about IPv6 address assignment to mobile nodes,
> and we should not publish a document about IPv6 address assignment that
> conflicts with best current practices on IPv6 address assignment.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 12:56 PM, jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> The authors of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-07 and
> draft-sijeon-dmm-use-cases-api-source have come up with a merged document
> draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08.
>
>
>
> This email starts a 2 week WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08.
>
> The WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.
>
>
>
> Provide your comments, concerns and approvals to the email list (and
> hopefully also to IssueTracker).
>
>
>
> - Jouni & Dapeng
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>
>
> From: IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org>
>
> Subject: IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility
>
> Date: November 28, 2016 at 12:51:34 PM PST
>
> To: <draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org>, <dmm-chairs@ietf.org>,
> <max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com>
>
> Resent-From: <alias-bounces@ietf.org>
>
> Resent-To: jouni.nospam@gmail.com, maxpassion@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility has been changed to
> "In WG Last Call" from "WG Document" by Jouni Korhonen:
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility/
>
>
> Comment:
> WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dmm mailing list
> dmm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dmm mailing list
> dmm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm
>


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From: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
To: "sarikaya@ieee.org" <sarikaya@ieee.org>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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From nobody Fri Dec  2 12:32:08 2016
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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 12:31:38 -0800
Message-ID: <CAKD1Yr1wzpyryb+T5N7FkVSpPfnZWKG_OH3izo35i8JjR=y+Ow@mail.gmail.com>
To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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On the particular case of shared links: note that they have substantial
scalability and performance issues. In order for shared links to work you
have to engage in DAD proxying, ND snooping, client isolation and all sorts
of unsavoury and L2/L3 magic that does not scale. Some of these issues are
described in RFC 7934 section 9.3. On shared links, these forces act to
reduce the number of IP addresses per host that the network can support and
leads to the negative consequences in section 4 of the document, which is
why they are not recommended.

For these and other reasons, on many public networks we're seeing a shift
*away* from shared links - see, for example,
draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host
, and the current large deployments of that model in the form of Comcast
community wifi.

For many years 3GPP networks have been providing those benefits by
providing a full /64 to every host. I would hate to lose those benefits.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
wrote:

> With a fixed access network the prefix can be assigned to the link and
> used by anyone who joins the link.
>
>
>
> With a prefix offering mobility the prefix belongs to the mobile host and
> needs to move with it.  There aren=E2=80=99t enough prefixes (even in IPv=
6) to
> assign a permanent prefix to each UE for every topological attachment poi=
nt
> that it might visit or start a session from.
>
>
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2016 3:09 PM
> *To:* Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>;
> draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> But you have that problem with IP addresses as well, right? I don't see
> how "assigning a prefix with certain properties" requires more state in t=
he
> network than "assigning an IP address with certain properties".
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> wrote:
>
> Providing any kind of mobility service for a prefix will require some
> state somewhere in the network.  It would be great to avoid an allocation
> request / response for the prefix, but the state has to be created someho=
w
> before the UE can use the prefix and it has to be reclaimed eventually
> after the UE stops using the prefix (which may not be until well after it
> disconnects from the current link and moves to another one).
>
>
>
> Would welcome any suggestions on how to manage this state.
>
>
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Lorenzo Colitti
> *Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2016 12:04 PM
> *To:* jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I like the goal of reducing network cost by allowing the use of IP
> addresses that do not require network mobility, but we should not be doin=
g
> this by requesting IP addresses from the network, because this violates
> IPv6 address assignment best practices.
>
>
>
> Specifically, RFC 7934 recommends that a) the network should provide
> multiple addresses from each prefix and b) the network should allow the
> host to use new addresses without requiring explicit requests to the
> network. This is in conflict with at least this text in the draft, which
> says:
>
>
>
>    In case an application
>
>    requests one, the IP stack shall make an attempt to configure one by
>
>    issuing a request to the network.  If the operation fails, the IP
>
>    stack shall fail the associated socket request
>
>
>
> One way to resolve this conflict would be to say that the network must no=
t
> assign individual addresses, but /64 (or shorter) prefixes. So if the
> device desires to use fixed IPv6 addresses, then the network should give
> the host a fixed IPv6 prefix from which the host can form as many address=
es
> as it wants.
>
>
>
> I do not think we should advance this document until the conflicts are
> resolved. This document is about IPv6 address assignment to mobile nodes,
> and we should not publish a document about IPv6 address assignment that
> conflicts with best current practices on IPv6 address assignment.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 12:56 PM, jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> The authors of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-07
> and draft-sijeon-dmm-use-cases-api-source have come up with a merged
> document draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08.
>
>
>
> This email starts a 2 week WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08.
>
> The WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.
>
>
>
> Provide your comments, concerns and approvals to the email list (and
> hopefully also to IssueTracker).
>
>
>
> - Jouni & Dapeng
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>
>
> *From: *IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org>
>
> *Subject: IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility*
>
> *Date: *November 28, 2016 at 12:51:34 PM PST
>
> *To: *<draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org>, <dmm-chairs@ietf.org>,
> <max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com>
>
> *Resent-From: *<alias-bounces@ietf.org>
>
> *Resent-To: *jouni.nospam@gmail.com, maxpassion@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility has been changed to
> "In WG Last Call" from "WG Document" by Jouni Korhonen:
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility/
>
>
> Comment:
> WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dmm mailing list
> dmm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm
>
>
>
>
>

--f403045d96ae6aa2620542b2d486
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>On the particular case of shared links: note that the=
y have substantial scalability and performance issues. In order for shared =
links to work you have to engage in DAD proxying, ND snooping, client isola=
tion and all sorts of unsavoury and L2/L3 magic that does not scale. Some o=
f these issues are described in RFC 7934 section 9.3. On shared links, thes=
e forces act to reduce the number of IP addresses per host that the network=
 can support and leads to the negative consequences in section 4 of the doc=
ument, which is why they are not recommended.</div><div><br></div><div>For =
these and other reasons, on many public networks we&#39;re seeing a shift *=
away* from shared links - see, for example, draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-<w=
br>prefix-per-host , and the current large deployments of that model in the=
 form of Comcast community wifi.</div><div><br></div><div>For many years 3G=
PP networks have been providing those benefits by providing a full /64 to e=
very host. I would hate to lose those benefits.</div><div class=3D"gmail_ex=
tra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Peter =
McCann <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-934011406605527407m_-3582121694200622796WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">With a fixed access network the prefi=
x can be assigned to the link and used by anyone who joins the link.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">With a prefix offering mobility the p=
refix belongs to the mobile host and needs to move with it.=C2=A0 There are=
n=E2=80=99t enough prefixes (even in IPv6) to assign a permanent
 prefix to each UE for every topological attachment point that it might vis=
it or start a session from.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">-Pete<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lorenzo@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 3:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-d=
mm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mo=
bili<wbr>ty@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>dmm@ietf.org</a></span></p><div><div class=3D"m_-934011406605527407h5"><br=
>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobili<wbr>ty-08=
<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p><div><div class=3D"m_-934011406605527407h5=
">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But you have that problem with IP addresses as well,=
 right? I don&#39;t see how &quot;assigning a prefix with certain propertie=
s&quot; requires more state in the network than &quot;assigning an IP addre=
ss with certain properties&quot;.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Peter McCann &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@hua=
wei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Providing any kind of mobility servic=
e for a prefix will require some state somewhere in the network.=C2=A0
 It would be great to avoid an allocation request / response for the prefix=
, but the state has to be created somehow before the UE can use the prefix =
and it has to be reclaimed eventually after the UE stops using the prefix (=
which may not be until well after
 it disconnects from the current link and moves to another one).</span><u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Would welcome any suggestions on how =
to manage this state.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">-Pete</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> dmm [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:=
dmm-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Lorenzo Colitti<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 12:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobili<wbr>ty@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">
dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobili<wbr>ty-08=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I like the goal of reducing network cost by allowing=
 the use of IP addresses that do not require network mobility, but we shoul=
d not be doing this by requesting IP addresses from
 the network, because this violates IPv6 address assignment best practices.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Specifically, RFC 7934 recommends that a) the networ=
k should provide multiple addresses from each prefix and b) the network sho=
uld allow the host to use new addresses without requiring
 explicit requests to the network. This is in conflict with at least this t=
ext in the draft, which says:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0In case an application<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0requests one, the IP stack shall make a=
n attempt to configure one by<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0issuing a request to the network.=C2=A0=
 If the operation fails, the IP<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0stack shall fail the associated socket =
request<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">One way to resolve this conflict would be to say tha=
t the network must not assign individual addresses, but /64 (or shorter) pr=
efixes. So if the device desires to use fixed IPv6
 addresses, then the network should give the host a fixed IPv6 prefix from =
which the host can form as many addresses as it wants.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I do not think we should advance this document until=
 the conflicts are resolved. This document is about IPv6 address assignment=
 to mobile nodes, and we should not publish a document
 about IPv6 address assignment that conflicts with best current practices o=
n IPv6 address assignment.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Lorenzo<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 12:56 PM, jouni.nospam &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gma=
il.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Folks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The authors of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobili<wbr>ty=
-07 and=C2=A0draft-sijeon-dmm-use-cases<wbr>-api-source have come up with a=
 merged document=C2=A0draft-ietf-dmm-ondema<wbr>nd-mobility-08.<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This email starts a 2 week WGLC for=C2=A0draft-ietf-=
dmm-ondemand-mo<wbr>bility-08.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Provide your comments, concerns and approvals to the=
 email list (and hopefully also to IssueTracker).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Jouni &amp; Dapeng<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Begin forwarded message:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">IET=
F Secretariat &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.o<wbr>rg</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Subject: IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobi=
li<wbr>ty</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Date:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Nov=
ember 28, 2016 at 12:51:34 PM PST</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">To:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobil<wbr>ity@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:dmm-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com" target=3D"_blank">max.ldp@a=
libaba-inc.com</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Resent-From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:alias-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">alias-bounces@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Resent-To:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a =
href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail=
.com</a>,
<a href=3D"mailto:maxpassion@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">maxpassion@gmail.=
com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobili<wbr>ty has been changed=
 to<br>
&quot;In WG Last Call&quot; from &quot;WG Document&quot; by Jouni Korhonen:=
<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobilit=
y/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc/draft-ietf-dmm-=
ondemand-mob<wbr>ility/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Comment:<br>
WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
dmm mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/dmm</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--f403045d96ae6aa2620542b2d486--


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From: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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From: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>
To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 17:56:55 -0800
Message-ID: <CAKD1Yr2UPaGKvTN4750G7Fa0dxkpzapMN+AUQc4i2PmJ9mgM2Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>
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Cc: "draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org>, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, "dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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Danny,

yes, there are two documents, but draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility is the
one I am objecting to at the moment.

The reason is that it describes a practice where the application gets an
IPv6 address by issuing a request to the network, and RFC 7934 explicitly
recommends against that. It doesn't matter whether the IPv6 address is
requested and granted via DHCPv6, PCO options, HTTP requests, or smoke
signals - the key point is that per RFC 7934, the network should not be
handing out individual IPv6 addresses based on explicit requests by the
host.

The best example of that practice is this text:

   In case an application
   requests one, the IP stack shall make an attempt to configure one by
   issuing a request to the network.  If the operation fails, the IP
   stack shall fail the associated socket request

but there are likely other examples elsewhere in the draft.

I would suggest rewording that text to say that the MN should pick an IP
address out of a (/64 or shorter) prefix that has the desired properties.
If there is not already a prefix assigned to it that has the desired
properties, then it should request a prefix with the desired properties.

I agree that we do not need application developers to think in terms of
prefixes, but we do need network protocol designers and implementers, and
OS implementers, to design and implement the request machinery using
prefixes and not individual IPv6 addresses.

Cheers,
Lorenzo

On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 1:13 AM, Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com> wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
>
>
> I hope there isn=E2=80=99t a confusion between *draft-ietf-ondemand-mobil=
ity* and
> *draft-moses-dmm-dhcp-ondemand-mobility*.
>
>
>
> =C2=B7        Draft-ietf-ondemand-mobility defines the ability of the net=
work
> to provide different types of session continuity services and extends the
> *Socket* interface to enable application to influence the service they
> require for the newly established IP session. It does not specify how the
> session continuity requirements are conveyed to/from the network.
>
>
>
> =C2=B7        Draft-moses-dmm-dhcp-ondemand-mobility is the draft that de=
fines
> extensions to *DHCPv6* in order to convey session-continuity service type
> to the network.
>
>
>
> Lorenzo,
>
> I the last F2F in Seoul, you expressed your concerns that the proposed
> DHCP extensions to enabling the specification of the service type in IP
> address requests, contradict the recommendations specified in RFC 7934. A=
s
> I mentioned in the discussion, I am committed to fix the wording in that
> draft to resolve that contradiction.
>
>
>
> But draft-ietf-ondemand-mobility discusses extensions to the Socket
> interface. Sockets are used by application developers to initiated IP
> sessions. I do not think application developers should be networking
> experts and should be aware of what is being allocated by cellular networ=
ks
> to mobile hosts (or UEs, in the 3GPP jargon=E2=80=A6). This draft does no=
t indicate
> that each invocation of a socket API to initiation an IP session, results
> in a request to the network. It does not get into these resolutions
> intentionally. We are separating the description of what an application
> does, to what the mobile host=E2=80=99s IP stack does.
>
>
>
> Therefore, I do not think we should confuse application writers with IP
> prefixes. All they need to know is how to influence the service that are
> getting, like their ability to choose between a reliable transport (TCP) =
or
> unreliable one (UDP).
>
>
>
> I hope you agree with this separation.
>
>
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
> Danny
>
>
>
> *From:* Peter McCann [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2016 22:37
> *To:* Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
> *Cc:* jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>;
> draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> Agree, I am not arguing in favor of sharing a prefix between two or more
> MNs at the same time.  However, I think it is important to reclaim a pref=
ix
> for use by another MN after the current MN has moved to a new attachment
> point and stopped using the prefix it got from the old attachment point.
> It is also important to refrain from advertising the prefix to another MN
> until the current MN has stopped using it.  That is the network state I a=
m
> talking about.
>
>
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com <lorenzo@google.com>]
> *Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2016 3:32 PM
> *To:* Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>;
> draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> On the particular case of shared links: note that they have substantial
> scalability and performance issues. In order for shared links to work you
> have to engage in DAD proxying, ND snooping, client isolation and all sor=
ts
> of unsavoury and L2/L3 magic that does not scale. Some of these issues ar=
e
> described in RFC 7934 section 9.3. On shared links, these forces act to
> reduce the number of IP addresses per host that the network can support a=
nd
> leads to the negative consequences in section 4 of the document, which is
> why they are not recommended.
>
>
>
> For these and other reasons, on many public networks we're seeing a shift
> *away* from shared links - see, for example, draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6=
-prefix-per-host
> , and the current large deployments of that model in the form of Comcast
> community wifi.
>
>
>
> For many years 3GPP networks have been providing those benefits by
> providing a full /64 to every host. I would hate to lose those benefits.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> wrote:
>
> With a fixed access network the prefix can be assigned to the link and
> used by anyone who joins the link.
>
>
>
> With a prefix offering mobility the prefix belongs to the mobile host and
> needs to move with it.  There aren=E2=80=99t enough prefixes (even in IPv=
6) to
> assign a permanent prefix to each UE for every topological attachment poi=
nt
> that it might visit or start a session from.
>
>
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2016 3:09 PM
> *To:* Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>;
> draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> But you have that problem with IP addresses as well, right? I don't see
> how "assigning a prefix with certain properties" requires more state in t=
he
> network than "assigning an IP address with certain properties".
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> wrote:
>
> Providing any kind of mobility service for a prefix will require some
> state somewhere in the network.  It would be great to avoid an allocation
> request / response for the prefix, but the state has to be created someho=
w
> before the UE can use the prefix and it has to be reclaimed eventually
> after the UE stops using the prefix (which may not be until well after it
> disconnects from the current link and moves to another one).
>
>
>
> Would welcome any suggestions on how to manage this state.
>
>
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Lorenzo Colitti
> *Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2016 12:04 PM
> *To:* jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I like the goal of reducing network cost by allowing the use of IP
> addresses that do not require network mobility, but we should not be doin=
g
> this by requesting IP addresses from the network, because this violates
> IPv6 address assignment best practices.
>
>
>
> Specifically, RFC 7934 recommends that a) the network should provide
> multiple addresses from each prefix and b) the network should allow the
> host to use new addresses without requiring explicit requests to the
> network. This is in conflict with at least this text in the draft, which
> says:
>
>
>
>    In case an application
>
>    requests one, the IP stack shall make an attempt to configure one by
>
>    issuing a request to the network.  If the operation fails, the IP
>
>    stack shall fail the associated socket request
>
>
>
> One way to resolve this conflict would be to say that the network must no=
t
> assign individual addresses, but /64 (or shorter) prefixes. So if the
> device desires to use fixed IPv6 addresses, then the network should give
> the host a fixed IPv6 prefix from which the host can form as many address=
es
> as it wants.
>
>
>
> I do not think we should advance this document until the conflicts are
> resolved. This document is about IPv6 address assignment to mobile nodes,
> and we should not publish a document about IPv6 address assignment that
> conflicts with best current practices on IPv6 address assignment.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 12:56 PM, jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> The authors of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-07
> and draft-sijeon-dmm-use-cases-api-source have come up with a merged
> document draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08.
>
>
>
> This email starts a 2 week WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08.
>
> The WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.
>
>
>
> Provide your comments, concerns and approvals to the email list (and
> hopefully also to IssueTracker).
>
>
>
> - Jouni & Dapeng
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>
>
> *From: *IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org>
>
> *Subject: IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility*
>
> *Date: *November 28, 2016 at 12:51:34 PM PST
>
> *To: *<draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org>, <dmm-chairs@ietf.org>,
> <max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com>
>
> *Resent-From: *<alias-bounces@ietf.org>
>
> *Resent-To: *jouni.nospam@gmail.com, maxpassion@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility has been changed to
> "In WG Last Call" from "WG Document" by Jouni Korhonen:
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility/
>
>
> Comment:
> WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dmm mailing list
> dmm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Danny,<div><br></div><div>yes, there are two documents, bu=
t draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility is the one I am objecting to at the=
 moment.</div><div><br>The reason is that it describes a practice where the=
 application gets an IPv6 address by issuing a request to the network, and =
RFC 7934 explicitly recommends against that. It doesn&#39;t matter whether =
the IPv6 address is requested and granted via DHCPv6, PCO options, HTTP req=
uests, or smoke signals - the key point is that per RFC 7934, the network s=
hould not be handing out individual IPv6 addresses based on explicit reques=
ts by the host.</div><div><br></div><div>The best example of that practice =
is this text:</div><div><br></div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0In case an applica=
tion</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0requests one, the IP stack shall make an attemp=
t to configure one by</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0issuing a request to the netwo=
rk.=C2=A0 If the operation fails, the IP</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0stack shall=
 fail the associated socket request</div></div><div><br></div><div>but ther=
e are likely other examples elsewhere in the draft.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>I would suggest rewording that text to say that the MN should pick an IP =
address out of a (/64 or shorter) prefix that has the desired properties. I=
f there is not already a prefix assigned to it that has the desired propert=
ies, then it should request a prefix with the desired properties.</div><div=
><br></div><div>I agree that we do not need application developers to think=
 in terms of prefixes, but we do need network protocol designers and implem=
enters, and OS implementers, to design and implement the request machinery =
using prefixes and not individual IPv6 addresses.</div><div><br></div><div>=
Cheers,</div><div>Lorenzo</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 1:13 AM, Moses, Danny <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:danny.moses@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">danny.mose=
s@intel.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_2068768676317424611m_-5441745691896958428WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi guys,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I hope there isn=E2=80=99t a confusio=
n between
<b>draft-ietf-ondemand-mobility</b> and <b>draft-moses-dmm-dhcp-ondemand-<w=
br>mobility</b>.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_2068768676317424611m_-5441745691896958428MsoListParagraph"><u=
></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><spa=
n>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Draft-i=
etf-ondemand-mobility defines the ability of the network to provide differe=
nt types of session continuity services and
 extends the <b>Socket</b> interface to enable application to influence the=
 service they require for the newly established IP session. It does not spe=
cify how the session continuity requirements are conveyed to/from the netwo=
rk.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_2068768676317424611m_-5441745691896958428MsoListParagraph"><u=
></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><spa=
n>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Draft-m=
oses-dmm-dhcp-ondemand-<wbr>mobility is the draft that defines extensions t=
o
<b>DHCPv6</b> in order to convey session-continuity service type to the net=
work.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Lorenzo,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I the last F2F in Seoul, you expresse=
d your concerns that the proposed DHCP extensions to enabling the specifica=
tion of the service type in IP address requests,
 contradict the recommendations specified in RFC 7934. As I mentioned in th=
e discussion, I am committed to fix the wording in that draft to resolve th=
at contradiction.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">But draft-ietf-ondemand-mobility disc=
usses extensions to the Socket interface. Sockets are used by application d=
evelopers to initiated IP sessions. I do not think
 application developers should be networking experts and should be aware of=
 what is being allocated by cellular networks to mobile hosts (or UEs, in t=
he 3GPP jargon=E2=80=A6). This draft does not indicate that each invocation=
 of a socket API to initiation an IP session,
 results in a request to the network. It does not get into these resolution=
s intentionally. We are separating the description of what an application d=
oes, to what the mobile host=E2=80=99s IP stack does.<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Therefore, I do not think we should c=
onfuse application writers with IP prefixes. All they need to know is how t=
o influence the service that are getting, like
 their ability to choose between a reliable transport (TCP) or unreliable o=
ne (UDP).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I hope you agree with this separation=
.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Thanks and regards,<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Danny<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_2068768676317424611_m_-5441745691896958=
428__MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Peter McCann [mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.c=
o<wbr>m</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 22:37<br>
<b>To:</b> Lorenzo Colitti &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank">lorenzo@google.com</a>&gt;<span><br>
<b>Cc:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-d=
mm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mo=
bili<wbr>ty@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
</span><b>Subject:</b> RE: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobili<wb=
r>ty-08<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"m_2068768676317424611h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Agree, I am not arguing in favor of s=
haring a prefix between two or more MNs at the same time.=C2=A0 However, I =
think it is important to reclaim a prefix for use by
 another MN after the current MN has moved to a new attachment point and st=
opped using the prefix it got from the old attachment point.=C2=A0=C2=A0 It=
 is also important to refrain from advertising the prefix to another MN unt=
il the current MN has stopped using it.=C2=A0 That
 is the network state I am talking about.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">-Pete<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Lorenzo Colitti [<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto:lorenzo@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 3:32 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobili<wbr>ty@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobili<wbr>ty-08=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On the particular case of shared links: note that th=
ey have substantial scalability and performance issues. In order for shared=
 links to work you have to engage in DAD proxying, ND snooping, client isol=
ation and all sorts of unsavoury and
 L2/L3 magic that does not scale. Some of these issues are described in RFC=
 7934 section 9.3. On shared links, these forces act to reduce the number o=
f IP addresses per host that the network can support and leads to the negat=
ive consequences in section 4 of
 the document, which is why they are not recommended.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For these and other reasons, on many public networks=
 we&#39;re seeing a shift *away* from shared links - see, for example, draf=
t-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-p<wbr>refix-per-host , and the current large deplo=
yments of that model in the form of Comcast
 community wifi.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For many years 3GPP networks have been providing tho=
se benefits by providing a full /64 to every host. I would hate to lose tho=
se benefits.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Peter McCann &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@hua=
wei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">With a fixed access network the prefi=
x can be assigned to the link and used by anyone who joins the
 link.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">With a prefix offering mobility the p=
refix belongs to the mobile host and needs to move with it.=C2=A0 There
 aren=E2=80=99t enough prefixes (even in IPv6) to assign a permanent prefix=
 to each UE for every topological attachment point that it might visit or s=
tart a session from.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">-Pete</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lorenzo@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 3:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobili<wbr>ty@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a></span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobili<wbr>ty-08=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But you have that problem with IP addresses as well,=
 right? I don&#39;t see how &quot;assigning a prefix with certain propertie=
s&quot; requires more state in the network than &quot;assigning an IP
 address with certain properties&quot;.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Peter McCann &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@hua=
wei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Providing any kind of mobility servic=
e for a prefix will require some state somewhere in the network.=C2=A0
 It would be great to avoid an allocation request / response for the prefix=
, but the state has to be created somehow before the UE can use the prefix =
and it has to be reclaimed eventually after the UE stops using the prefix (=
which may not be until well after
 it disconnects from the current link and moves to another one).</span><u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Would welcome any suggestions on how =
to manage this state.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">-Pete</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> dmm [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:=
dmm-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Lorenzo Colitti<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 12:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobili<wbr>ty@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">
dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobili<wbr>ty-08=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I like the goal of reducing network cost by allowing=
 the use of IP addresses that do not require network mobility, but we shoul=
d not be doing this by requesting IP addresses from
 the network, because this violates IPv6 address assignment best practices.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Specifically, RFC 7934 recommends that a) the networ=
k should provide multiple addresses from each prefix and b) the network sho=
uld allow the host to use new addresses without requiring
 explicit requests to the network. This is in conflict with at least this t=
ext in the draft, which says:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0In case an application<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0requests one, the IP stack shall make a=
n attempt to configure one by<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0issuing a request to the network.=C2=A0=
 If the operation fails, the IP<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0stack shall fail the associated socket =
request<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">One way to resolve this conflict would be to say tha=
t the network must not assign individual addresses, but /64 (or shorter) pr=
efixes. So if the device desires to use fixed IPv6
 addresses, then the network should give the host a fixed IPv6 prefix from =
which the host can form as many addresses as it wants.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I do not think we should advance this document until=
 the conflicts are resolved. This document is about IPv6 address assignment=
 to mobile nodes, and we should not publish a document
 about IPv6 address assignment that conflicts with best current practices o=
n IPv6 address assignment.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Lorenzo<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 12:56 PM, jouni.nospam &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gma=
il.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Folks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The authors of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobili<wbr>ty=
-07 and=C2=A0draft-sijeon-dmm-use-cases<wbr>-api-source have come up with a=
 merged document=C2=A0draft-ietf-dmm-ondema<wbr>nd-mobility-08.<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This email starts a 2 week WGLC for=C2=A0draft-ietf-=
dmm-ondemand-mo<wbr>bility-08.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Provide your comments, concerns and approvals to the=
 email list (and hopefully also to IssueTracker).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Jouni &amp; Dapeng<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Begin forwarded message:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">IET=
F Secretariat &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.o<wbr>rg</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Subject: IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobi=
li<wbr>ty</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Date:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Nov=
ember 28, 2016 at 12:51:34 PM PST</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">To:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobil<wbr>ity@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:dmm-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com" target=3D"_blank">max.ldp@a=
libaba-inc.com</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Resent-From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:alias-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">alias-bounces@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Resent-To:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a =
href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail=
.com</a>,
<a href=3D"mailto:maxpassion@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">maxpassion@gmail.=
com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobili<wbr>ty has been changed=
 to<br>
&quot;In WG Last Call&quot; from &quot;WG Document&quot; by Jouni Korhonen:=
<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobilit=
y/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc/draft-ietf-dmm-=
ondemand-mob<wbr>ility/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Comment:<br>
WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
dmm mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm" target=3D"_blank">htt=
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</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
<p>------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>--=
-------<br>
A member of the Intel Corporation group of companies</p>

<p>This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for<br=
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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 18:20:50 -0800
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Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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--f403045d96aef310bf0542dff0a2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
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Agreed; if we want to support this sort of mobility it needs to be possible
to tell a MN that its previous prefix is no longer valid.

>From a technical perspective this can be done using router advertisements,
except for the 2-hour rule in RFC 4862 section 5.3.3. That rule exists to
prevent DOS attacks on shared links, so I think it would be reasonable to
update RFC 4862 to say that less-than-2-hour valid lifetimes are acceptable
if the link provides strong guarantees that there are no other nodes on
link that can mount such an attack.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
wrote:

> Agree, I am not arguing in favor of sharing a prefix between two or more
> MNs at the same time.  However, I think it is important to reclaim a pref=
ix
> for use by another MN after the current MN has moved to a new attachment
> point and stopped using the prefix it got from the old attachment point.
> It is also important to refrain from advertising the prefix to another MN
> until the current MN has stopped using it.  That is the network state I a=
m
> talking about.
>
>
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2016 3:32 PM
>
> *To:* Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-
> mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> On the particular case of shared links: note that they have substantial
> scalability and performance issues. In order for shared links to work you
> have to engage in DAD proxying, ND snooping, client isolation and all sor=
ts
> of unsavoury and L2/L3 magic that does not scale. Some of these issues ar=
e
> described in RFC 7934 section 9.3. On shared links, these forces act to
> reduce the number of IP addresses per host that the network can support a=
nd
> leads to the negative consequences in section 4 of the document, which is
> why they are not recommended.
>
>
>
> For these and other reasons, on many public networks we're seeing a shift
> *away* from shared links - see, for example, draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6=
-prefix-per-host
> , and the current large deployments of that model in the form of Comcast
> community wifi.
>
>
>
> For many years 3GPP networks have been providing those benefits by
> providing a full /64 to every host. I would hate to lose those benefits.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> wrote:
>
> With a fixed access network the prefix can be assigned to the link and
> used by anyone who joins the link.
>
>
>
> With a prefix offering mobility the prefix belongs to the mobile host and
> needs to move with it.  There aren=E2=80=99t enough prefixes (even in IPv=
6) to
> assign a permanent prefix to each UE for every topological attachment poi=
nt
> that it might visit or start a session from.
>
>
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2016 3:09 PM
> *To:* Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-
> mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> But you have that problem with IP addresses as well, right? I don't see
> how "assigning a prefix with certain properties" requires more state in t=
he
> network than "assigning an IP address with certain properties".
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> wrote:
>
> Providing any kind of mobility service for a prefix will require some
> state somewhere in the network.  It would be great to avoid an allocation
> request / response for the prefix, but the state has to be created someho=
w
> before the UE can use the prefix and it has to be reclaimed eventually
> after the UE stops using the prefix (which may not be until well after it
> disconnects from the current link and moves to another one).
>
>
>
> Would welcome any suggestions on how to manage this state.
>
>
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Lorenzo Colitti
> *Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2016 12:04 PM
> *To:* jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I like the goal of reducing network cost by allowing the use of IP
> addresses that do not require network mobility, but we should not be doin=
g
> this by requesting IP addresses from the network, because this violates
> IPv6 address assignment best practices.
>
>
>
> Specifically, RFC 7934 recommends that a) the network should provide
> multiple addresses from each prefix and b) the network should allow the
> host to use new addresses without requiring explicit requests to the
> network. This is in conflict with at least this text in the draft, which
> says:
>
>
>
>    In case an application
>
>    requests one, the IP stack shall make an attempt to configure one by
>
>    issuing a request to the network.  If the operation fails, the IP
>
>    stack shall fail the associated socket request
>
>
>
> One way to resolve this conflict would be to say that the network must no=
t
> assign individual addresses, but /64 (or shorter) prefixes. So if the
> device desires to use fixed IPv6 addresses, then the network should give
> the host a fixed IPv6 prefix from which the host can form as many address=
es
> as it wants.
>
>
>
> I do not think we should advance this document until the conflicts are
> resolved. This document is about IPv6 address assignment to mobile nodes,
> and we should not publish a document about IPv6 address assignment that
> conflicts with best current practices on IPv6 address assignment.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 12:56 PM, jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> The authors of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-07
> and draft-sijeon-dmm-use-cases-api-source have come up with a merged
> document draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08.
>
>
>
> This email starts a 2 week WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08.
>
> The WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.
>
>
>
> Provide your comments, concerns and approvals to the email list (and
> hopefully also to IssueTracker).
>
>
>
> - Jouni & Dapeng
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>
>
> *From: *IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org>
>
> *Subject: IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility*
>
> *Date: *November 28, 2016 at 12:51:34 PM PST
>
> *To: *<draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org>, <dmm-chairs@ietf.org>,
> <max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com>
>
> *Resent-From: *<alias-bounces@ietf.org>
>
> *Resent-To: *jouni.nospam@gmail.com, maxpassion@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility has been changed to
> "In WG Last Call" from "WG Document" by Jouni Korhonen:
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility/
>
>
> Comment:
> WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dmm mailing list
> dmm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--f403045d96aef310bf0542dff0a2
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Agreed; if we want to support this sort of mobility it nee=
ds to be possible to tell a MN that its previous prefix is no longer valid.=
<div><br></div><div>From a technical perspective this can be done using rou=
ter advertisements, except for the 2-hour rule in RFC 4862 section 5.3.3. T=
hat rule exists to prevent DOS attacks on shared links, so I think it would=
 be reasonable to update RFC 4862 to say that less-than-2-hour valid lifeti=
mes are acceptable if the link provides strong guarantees that there are no=
 other nodes on link that can mount such an attack.</div></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:3=
6 PM, Peter McCann <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@hua=
wei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_3984149948813964579WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Agree, I am not arguing in favor of s=
haring a prefix between two or more MNs at the same time.=C2=A0 However, I =
think it is important to reclaim a prefix for use by
 another MN after the current MN has moved to a new attachment point and st=
opped using the prefix it got from the old attachment point.=C2=A0=C2=A0 It=
 is also important to refrain from advertising the prefix to another MN unt=
il the current MN has stopped using it.=C2=A0 That
 is the network state I am talking about.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">-Pete<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lorenzo@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 3:32 PM</span></p><div><div class=3D=
"h5"><br>
<b>To:</b> Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-d=
mm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<w=
br>mobility@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On the particular case of shared links: note that th=
ey have substantial scalability and performance issues. In order for shared=
 links to work you have to engage in DAD proxying, ND snooping, client isol=
ation and all sorts of unsavoury and
 L2/L3 magic that does not scale. Some of these issues are described in RFC=
 7934 section 9.3. On shared links, these forces act to reduce the number o=
f IP addresses per host that the network can support and leads to the negat=
ive consequences in section 4 of
 the document, which is why they are not recommended.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For these and other reasons, on many public networks=
 we&#39;re seeing a shift *away* from shared links - see, for example, draf=
t-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-<wbr>prefix-per-host , and the current large deplo=
yments of that model in the form of Comcast
 community wifi.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For many years 3GPP networks have been providing tho=
se benefits by providing a full /64 to every host. I would hate to lose tho=
se benefits.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Peter McCann &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@hua=
wei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">With a fixed access network the prefi=
x can be assigned to the link and used by anyone who joins the
 link.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">With a prefix offering mobility the p=
refix belongs to the mobile host and needs to move with it.=C2=A0 There
 aren=E2=80=99t enough prefixes (even in IPv6) to assign a permanent prefix=
 to each UE for every topological attachment point that it might visit or s=
tart a session from.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">-Pete</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lorenzo@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 3:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a></span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But you have that problem with IP addresses as well,=
 right? I don&#39;t see how &quot;assigning a prefix with certain propertie=
s&quot; requires more state in the network than &quot;assigning an IP
 address with certain properties&quot;.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Peter McCann &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@hua=
wei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Providing any kind of mobility servic=
e for a prefix will require some state somewhere in the network.=C2=A0
 It would be great to avoid an allocation request / response for the prefix=
, but the state has to be created somehow before the UE can use the prefix =
and it has to be reclaimed eventually after the UE stops using the prefix (=
which may not be until well after
 it disconnects from the current link and moves to another one).</span><u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Would welcome any suggestions on how =
to manage this state.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">-Pete</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> dmm [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:=
dmm-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Lorenzo Colitti<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 12:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">
dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I like the goal of reducing network cost by allowing=
 the use of IP addresses that do not require network mobility, but we shoul=
d not be doing this by requesting IP addresses from
 the network, because this violates IPv6 address assignment best practices.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Specifically, RFC 7934 recommends that a) the networ=
k should provide multiple addresses from each prefix and b) the network sho=
uld allow the host to use new addresses without requiring
 explicit requests to the network. This is in conflict with at least this t=
ext in the draft, which says:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0In case an application<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0requests one, the IP stack shall make a=
n attempt to configure one by<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0issuing a request to the network.=C2=A0=
 If the operation fails, the IP<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0stack shall fail the associated socket =
request<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">One way to resolve this conflict would be to say tha=
t the network must not assign individual addresses, but /64 (or shorter) pr=
efixes. So if the device desires to use fixed IPv6
 addresses, then the network should give the host a fixed IPv6 prefix from =
which the host can form as many addresses as it wants.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I do not think we should advance this document until=
 the conflicts are resolved. This document is about IPv6 address assignment=
 to mobile nodes, and we should not publish a document
 about IPv6 address assignment that conflicts with best current practices o=
n IPv6 address assignment.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Lorenzo<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 12:56 PM, jouni.nospam &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gma=
il.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Folks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The authors of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility=
-07 and=C2=A0draft-sijeon-dmm-use-<wbr>cases-api-source have come up with a=
 merged document=C2=A0draft-ietf-dmm-<wbr>ondemand-mobility-08.<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This email starts a 2 week WGLC for=C2=A0draft-ietf-=
dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Provide your comments, concerns and approvals to the=
 email list (and hopefully also to IssueTracker).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Jouni &amp; Dapeng<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Begin forwarded message:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">IET=
F Secretariat &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Subject: IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr=
>mobility</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Date:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Nov=
ember 28, 2016 at 12:51:34 PM PST</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">To:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:dmm-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com" target=3D"_blank">max.ldp@a=
libaba-inc.com</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Resent-From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:alias-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">alias-bounces@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Resent-To:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a =
href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail=
.com</a>,
<a href=3D"mailto:maxpassion@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">maxpassion@gmail.=
com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility has been changed=
 to<br>
&quot;In WG Last Call&quot; from &quot;WG Document&quot; by Jouni Korhonen:=
<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobilit=
y/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-ietf-dmm-=
ondemand-<wbr>mobility/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Comment:<br>
WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
dmm mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/dmm</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--f403045d96aef310bf0542dff0a2--


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From: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 10:25:09 +0000
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Cc: "draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org>, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, "dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 05:24:43 -0800
Message-ID: <CAKD1Yr3XLtYOOzv+yLsH0Bv_X5wqxcO4F1B5axS_zKr5vfsJeQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>
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Cc: "draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org>, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, "dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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Danny,

It looks like you're proposing to reword the text that currently refers to
acquiring IP addresses with text that uses the term "network resources". I
think that's not very clear. What sort of resources? Networks have lots of
types of resources: timeslots, bandwidth, frequencies, etc. What is gained
by using the less specific word "resources" instead of the more specific
words "address" or "prefix"?

If you instead replaced "IP address" with "IPv4 address or IPv6 prefix",
would that cut out any use case that you're trying to consider?

Cheers,
Lorenzo

On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 2:25 AM, Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com> wrote:

> Hi Lorenzo,
>
>
>
> The intent of this draft is to focus on the Socket API extensions and the
> interaction between applications and the IP stack running on the mobile
> host. Not to describe the interactions between the IP stack and the
> network.
>
>
>
> My understanding is that as long as the draft maintains the above, your
> concerns should be satisfied.
>
>
>
> I reviewed the draft once more and found (in addition to some typos which
> I=E2=80=99ll fix) a couple of places in section 3.4 =E2=80=93 Conveying t=
he Selection =E2=80=93
> that need to be modified in order to satisfy your concerns:
>
>
>
> 1.     The paragraph before the definition of the IPV6_REQUIRE_SRC_ON_NET
> flag:
> =E2=80=98When the IP stack in required to assign a source IP address of a
> specified type, it can perform one of the following: It can assign a
> preconfigured address (if one exists) or request a new one from the
> network. Using an existing address is instantaneous but might yield a les=
s
> optimal route (if a hand-off event occurs since its configuration), on th=
e
> other hand, acquiring a new IP address from the network may take some tim=
e
> (due to signaling exchange with the network).=E2=80=99
>
> I propose the following modifications:
>
>                                 i.     Replace =E2=80=98=E2=80=A6 or requ=
est a new one
> from the network=E2=80=A6=E2=80=99 to =E2=80=98=E2=80=A6 or configure a n=
ew one using new resources from
> the network=E2=80=A6=E2=80=99
>
>                               ii.     Replace =E2=80=98=E2=80=A6 acquirin=
g a new IP
> address from the network may=E2=80=A6=E2=80=99 with =E2=80=98=E2=80=A6 co=
nfiguring a new one using new
> network resources may=E2=80=A6=E2=80=99
>
> The modified paragraph will be:
>
> =E2=80=98When the IP stack is required to assign a source IP address of a=
 specific
> type, it can perform one of the following: It can assign a preconfigured
> address (if one exists) or configure a new one using new resources from t=
he
> network. Using an existing address is instantaneous but might yield a les=
s
> optimal route (if a hand-off event occurred since its configuration), on
> the other hand, configuring a new one using new network resources may tak=
e
> some time (due to signaling exchange with the network).=E2=80=99
>
>
>
> 2.     The paragraph following the definition of the
> IPV6_REQUIRE_SRC_ON_NET:
>
> =E2=80=98If set, the IP stack will request a new IP address of the desire=
d type
> from the current serving network=E2=80=A6=E2=80=99
>
> I propose the modify this to:
>
> =E2=80=98If set, the IP stack will request new resources from the network=
 in order
> to configure a new IP address with the desired service type=E2=80=A6=E2=
=80=99
>
>
>
> Please also notice the disclaimer in section 3.3 =E2=80=93 Granularity of
> Selection =E2=80=93 that says:
>
> =E2=80=98It is outside the scope of this specification to define how the =
host
> requests a specific type of address (Fixed, Session-lasting or
> Non-persistent) and how the network indicates the type of address in its
> advertisement of addresses (or in its reply to an address request).=E2=80=
=99
>
>
>
> I can modify that to =E2=80=98=E2=80=A6 type of address/prefix=E2=80=A6=
=E2=80=99 but I prefer not to,
> since this draft focuses on Socket APIs (which deal with addresses =E2=80=
=93 not
> prefixes). I hope you can accept this.
>
>
>
> Do the above modifications fully address your concerns?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Danny
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, December 05, 2016 03:57
> *To:* Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com>
> *Cc:* Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>; jouni.nospam <
> jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org;
> dmm@ietf.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> Danny,
>
>
>
> yes, there are two documents, but draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility is the
> one I am objecting to at the moment.
>
>
> The reason is that it describes a practice where the application gets an
> IPv6 address by issuing a request to the network, and RFC 7934 explicitly
> recommends against that. It doesn't matter whether the IPv6 address is
> requested and granted via DHCPv6, PCO options, HTTP requests, or smoke
> signals - the key point is that per RFC 7934, the network should not be
> handing out individual IPv6 addresses based on explicit requests by the
> host.
>
>
>
> The best example of that practice is this text:
>
>
>
>    In case an application
>
>    requests one, the IP stack shall make an attempt to configure one by
>
>    issuing a request to the network.  If the operation fails, the IP
>
>    stack shall fail the associated socket request
>
>
>
> but there are likely other examples elsewhere in the draft.
>
>
>
> I would suggest rewording that text to say that the MN should pick an IP
> address out of a (/64 or shorter) prefix that has the desired properties.
> If there is not already a prefix assigned to it that has the desired
> properties, then it should request a prefix with the desired properties.
>
>
>
> I agree that we do not need application developers to think in terms of
> prefixes, but we do need network protocol designers and implementers, and
> OS implementers, to design and implement the request machinery using
> prefixes and not individual IPv6 addresses.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 1:13 AM, Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
>
>
>
> I hope there isn=E2=80=99t a confusion between *draft-ietf-ondemand-mobil=
ity* and
> *draft-moses-dmm-dhcp-ondemand-mobility*.
>
>
>
> =C2=B7        Draft-ietf-ondemand-mobility defines the ability of the net=
work
> to provide different types of session continuity services and extends the
> *Socket* interface to enable application to influence the service they
> require for the newly established IP session. It does not specify how the
> session continuity requirements are conveyed to/from the network.
>
>
>
> =C2=B7        Draft-moses-dmm-dhcp-ondemand-mobility is the draft that de=
fines
> extensions to *DHCPv6* in order to convey session-continuity service type
> to the network.
>
>
>
> Lorenzo,
>
> I the last F2F in Seoul, you expressed your concerns that the proposed
> DHCP extensions to enabling the specification of the service type in IP
> address requests, contradict the recommendations specified in RFC 7934. A=
s
> I mentioned in the discussion, I am committed to fix the wording in that
> draft to resolve that contradiction.
>
>
>
> But draft-ietf-ondemand-mobility discusses extensions to the Socket
> interface. Sockets are used by application developers to initiated IP
> sessions. I do not think application developers should be networking
> experts and should be aware of what is being allocated by cellular networ=
ks
> to mobile hosts (or UEs, in the 3GPP jargon=E2=80=A6). This draft does no=
t indicate
> that each invocation of a socket API to initiation an IP session, results
> in a request to the network. It does not get into these resolutions
> intentionally. We are separating the description of what an application
> does, to what the mobile host=E2=80=99s IP stack does.
>
>
>
> Therefore, I do not think we should confuse application writers with IP
> prefixes. All they need to know is how to influence the service that are
> getting, like their ability to choose between a reliable transport (TCP) =
or
> unreliable one (UDP).
>
>
>
> I hope you agree with this separation.
>
>
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
> Danny
>
>
>
> *From:* Peter McCann [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2016 22:37
> *To:* Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
> *Cc:* jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-
> mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> Agree, I am not arguing in favor of sharing a prefix between two or more
> MNs at the same time.  However, I think it is important to reclaim a pref=
ix
> for use by another MN after the current MN has moved to a new attachment
> point and stopped using the prefix it got from the old attachment point.
> It is also important to refrain from advertising the prefix to another MN
> until the current MN has stopped using it.  That is the network state I a=
m
> talking about.
>
>
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com <lorenzo@google.com>]
> *Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2016 3:32 PM
> *To:* Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-
> mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> On the particular case of shared links: note that they have substantial
> scalability and performance issues. In order for shared links to work you
> have to engage in DAD proxying, ND snooping, client isolation and all sor=
ts
> of unsavoury and L2/L3 magic that does not scale. Some of these issues ar=
e
> described in RFC 7934 section 9.3. On shared links, these forces act to
> reduce the number of IP addresses per host that the network can support a=
nd
> leads to the negative consequences in section 4 of the document, which is
> why they are not recommended.
>
>
>
> For these and other reasons, on many public networks we're seeing a shift
> *away* from shared links - see, for example, draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6=
-prefix-per-host
> , and the current large deployments of that model in the form of Comcast
> community wifi.
>
>
>
> For many years 3GPP networks have been providing those benefits by
> providing a full /64 to every host. I would hate to lose those benefits.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> wrote:
>
> With a fixed access network the prefix can be assigned to the link and
> used by anyone who joins the link.
>
>
>
> With a prefix offering mobility the prefix belongs to the mobile host and
> needs to move with it.  There aren=E2=80=99t enough prefixes (even in IPv=
6) to
> assign a permanent prefix to each UE for every topological attachment poi=
nt
> that it might visit or start a session from.
>
>
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2016 3:09 PM
> *To:* Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-
> mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> But you have that problem with IP addresses as well, right? I don't see
> how "assigning a prefix with certain properties" requires more state in t=
he
> network than "assigning an IP address with certain properties".
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> wrote:
>
> Providing any kind of mobility service for a prefix will require some
> state somewhere in the network.  It would be great to avoid an allocation
> request / response for the prefix, but the state has to be created someho=
w
> before the UE can use the prefix and it has to be reclaimed eventually
> after the UE stops using the prefix (which may not be until well after it
> disconnects from the current link and moves to another one).
>
>
>
> Would welcome any suggestions on how to manage this state.
>
>
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Lorenzo Colitti
> *Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2016 12:04 PM
> *To:* jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I like the goal of reducing network cost by allowing the use of IP
> addresses that do not require network mobility, but we should not be doin=
g
> this by requesting IP addresses from the network, because this violates
> IPv6 address assignment best practices.
>
>
>
> Specifically, RFC 7934 recommends that a) the network should provide
> multiple addresses from each prefix and b) the network should allow the
> host to use new addresses without requiring explicit requests to the
> network. This is in conflict with at least this text in the draft, which
> says:
>
>
>
>    In case an application
>
>    requests one, the IP stack shall make an attempt to configure one by
>
>    issuing a request to the network.  If the operation fails, the IP
>
>    stack shall fail the associated socket request
>
>
>
> One way to resolve this conflict would be to say that the network must no=
t
> assign individual addresses, but /64 (or shorter) prefixes. So if the
> device desires to use fixed IPv6 addresses, then the network should give
> the host a fixed IPv6 prefix from which the host can form as many address=
es
> as it wants.
>
>
>
> I do not think we should advance this document until the conflicts are
> resolved. This document is about IPv6 address assignment to mobile nodes,
> and we should not publish a document about IPv6 address assignment that
> conflicts with best current practices on IPv6 address assignment.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 12:56 PM, jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> The authors of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-07
> and draft-sijeon-dmm-use-cases-api-source have come up with a merged
> document draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08.
>
>
>
> This email starts a 2 week WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08.
>
> The WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.
>
>
>
> Provide your comments, concerns and approvals to the email list (and
> hopefully also to IssueTracker).
>
>
>
> - Jouni & Dapeng
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>
>
> *From: *IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org>
>
> *Subject: IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility*
>
> *Date: *November 28, 2016 at 12:51:34 PM PST
>
> *To: *<draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org>, <dmm-chairs@ietf.org>,
> <max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com>
>
> *Resent-From: *<alias-bounces@ietf.org>
>
> *Resent-To: *jouni.nospam@gmail.com, maxpassion@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility has been changed to
> "In WG Last Call" from "WG Document" by Jouni Korhonen:
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility/
>
>
> Comment:
> WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dmm mailing list
> dmm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Danny,<div><br></div><div>It looks like you&#39;re proposi=
ng to reword the text that currently refers to acquiring IP addresses with =
text that uses the term &quot;network resources&quot;. I think that&#39;s n=
ot very clear. What sort of resources? Networks have lots of types of resou=
rces: timeslots, bandwidth, frequencies, etc. What is gained by using the l=
ess specific word &quot;resources&quot; instead of the more specific words =
&quot;address&quot; or &quot;prefix&quot;?</div><div><br></div><div>If you =
instead replaced &quot;IP address&quot; with &quot;IPv4 address or IPv6 pre=
fix&quot;, would that cut out any use case that you&#39;re trying to consid=
er?</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Lorenzo</div></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 2:2=
5 AM, Moses, Danny <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:danny.moses@inte=
l.com" target=3D"_blank">danny.moses@intel.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-3945927811433635126WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Lorenzo,<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The intent of this draft is to focus on the Socket A=
PI extensions and the interaction between applications and the IP stack run=
ning on the mobile host. Not to describe the interactions between the IP st=
ack and the network.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My understanding is that as long as the draft mainta=
ins the above, your concerns should be satisfied.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I reviewed the draft once more and found (in additio=
n to some typos which I=E2=80=99ll fix) a couple of places in section 3.4 =
=E2=80=93 Conveying the Selection =E2=80=93 that need to be modified in ord=
er to satisfy your concerns:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3945927811433635126MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><span>1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &=
quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt">The paragraph before the definition of the IPV6_REQUIRE_SRC_ON_N=
ET flag:
<br>
=E2=80=98When the IP stack in required to assign a source IP address of a s=
pecified type, it can perform one of the following: It can assign a preconf=
igured address (if one exists) or request a new one from the network. Using=
 an existing address is instantaneous but
 might yield a less optimal route (if a hand-off event occurs since its con=
figuration), on the other hand, acquiring a new IP address from the network=
 may take some time (due to signaling exchange with the network).=E2=80=99
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3945927811433635126MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12.0pt">I propose the following modifications:<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3945927811433635126MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style=3D"marg=
in-left:72.0pt">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><span><span style=3D"font:7.0pt &qu=
ot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0
</span>i.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span><span =
style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Replace =E2=80=98=E2=80=A6 or request a new one =
from the network=E2=80=A6=E2=80=99 to =E2=80=98=E2=80=A6 or configure a new=
 one using new resources from the network=E2=80=A6=E2=80=99<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3945927811433635126MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style=3D"marg=
in-left:72.0pt">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><span><span style=3D"font:7.0pt &qu=
ot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>ii.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span><span =
style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Replace =E2=80=98=E2=80=A6 acquiring a new IP ad=
dress from the network may=E2=80=A6=E2=80=99 with =E2=80=98=E2=80=A6 config=
uring a new one using new network resources
 may=E2=80=A6=E2=80=99<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3945927811433635126MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12.0pt">The modified paragraph will be:
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3945927811433635126MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=E2=80=98When the IP stack is required to assign a so=
urce IP address of a specific type, it can perform one of the following: It=
 can assign a preconfigured address (if one exists) or configure a new
 one using new resources from the network. Using an existing address is ins=
tantaneous but might yield a less optimal route (if a hand-off event occurr=
ed since its configuration), on the other hand, configuring a new one using=
 new network resources may take
 some time (due to signaling exchange with the network).=E2=80=99<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3945927811433635126MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3945927811433635126MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><span>2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &=
quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt">The paragraph following the definition of the IPV6_REQUIRE_SRC_O=
N_NET:
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3945927811433635126MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=E2=80=98If set, the IP stack will request a new IP a=
ddress of the desired type from the current serving network=E2=80=A6=E2=80=
=99
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3945927811433635126MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12.0pt">I propose the modify this to:
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3945927811433635126MsoListParagraphCxSpLast"><span style=3D"=
font-size:12.0pt">=E2=80=98If set, the IP stack will request new resources =
from the network in order to configure a new IP address with the desired se=
rvice type=E2=80=A6=E2=80=99<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please also notice the disclaimer in section 3.3 =E2=
=80=93 Granularity of Selection =E2=80=93 that says:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=98It is outside the scope of this specificati=
on to define how the host requests a specific type of address (Fixed, Sessi=
on-lasting or Non-persistent) and how the network indicates the type of add=
ress in its advertisement of addresses (or
 in its reply to an address request).=E2=80=99<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I can modify that to =E2=80=98=E2=80=A6 type of addr=
ess/prefix=E2=80=A6=E2=80=99 but I prefer not to, since this draft focuses =
on Socket APIs (which deal with addresses =E2=80=93 not prefixes). I hope y=
ou can accept this.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Do the above modifications fully address your concer=
ns?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Danny <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-3945927811433635126__MailEndCompose"><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lorenzo@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 05, 2016 03:57<br>
<b>To:</b> Moses, Danny &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:danny.moses@intel.com" target=
=3D"_blank">danny.moses@intel.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;; jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"=
mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a></span></p><div><div=
 class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Danny,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">yes, there are two documents, but draft-ietf-dmm-ond=
emand-<wbr>mobility is the one I am objecting to at the moment.<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
The reason is that it describes a practice where the application gets an IP=
v6 address by issuing a request to the network, and RFC 7934 explicitly rec=
ommends against that. It doesn&#39;t matter whether the IPv6 address is req=
uested and granted via DHCPv6, PCO options,
 HTTP requests, or smoke signals - the key point is that per RFC 7934, the =
network should not be handing out individual IPv6 addresses based on explic=
it requests by the host.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The best example of that practice is this text:<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0In case an application<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0requests one, the IP stack shall make a=
n attempt to configure one by<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0issuing a request to the network.=C2=A0=
 If the operation fails, the IP<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0stack shall fail the associated socket =
request<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">but there are likely other examples elsewhere in the=
 draft.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would suggest rewording that text to say that the =
MN should pick an IP address out of a (/64 or shorter) prefix that has the =
desired properties. If there is not already a prefix assigned to it that ha=
s the desired properties, then it
 should request a prefix with the desired properties.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I agree that we do not need application developers t=
o think in terms of prefixes, but we do need network protocol designers and=
 implementers, and OS implementers, to design and implement the request mac=
hinery using prefixes and not individual
 IPv6 addresses.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Lorenzo<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 1:13 AM, Moses, Danny &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:danny.moses@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">danny.moses@intel.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi guys,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I hope there isn=E2=80=99t a confusio=
n between
<b>draft-ietf-ondemand-mobility</b> and <b>draft-moses-dmm-dhcp-ondemand-<w=
br>mobility</b>.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3945927811433635126m2068768676317424611m-5441745691896958428=
msolistparagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:=
#1f497d">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Draft-ietf-ondemand-mobility defines the ability of t=
he network to provide different types of session continuity services and ex=
tends the
<b>Socket</b> interface to enable application to influence the service they=
 require for the newly established IP session. It does not specify how the =
session continuity requirements are conveyed to/from the network.</span><u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3945927811433635126m2068768676317424611m-5441745691896958428=
msolistparagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:=
#1f497d">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Draft-moses-dmm-dhcp-ondemand-<wbr>mobility is the dr=
aft that defines extensions to
<b>DHCPv6</b> in order to convey session-continuity service type to the net=
work.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Lorenzo,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I the last F2F in Seoul, you expresse=
d your concerns that the proposed DHCP extensions to enabling
 the specification of the service type in IP address requests, contradict t=
he recommendations specified in RFC 7934. As I mentioned in the discussion,=
 I am committed to fix the wording in that draft to resolve that contradict=
ion.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">But draft-ietf-ondemand-mobility disc=
usses extensions to the Socket interface. Sockets are used by
 application developers to initiated IP sessions. I do not think applicatio=
n developers should be networking experts and should be aware of what is be=
ing allocated by cellular networks to mobile hosts (or UEs, in the 3GPP jar=
gon=E2=80=A6). This draft does not indicate
 that each invocation of a socket API to initiation an IP session, results =
in a request to the network. It does not get into these resolutions intenti=
onally. We are separating the description of what an application does, to w=
hat the mobile host=E2=80=99s IP stack does.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Therefore, I do not think we should c=
onfuse application writers with IP prefixes. All they need to
 know is how to influence the service that are getting, like their ability =
to choose between a reliable transport (TCP) or unreliable one (UDP).</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I hope you agree with this separation=
.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Thanks and regards,</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Danny</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-3945927811433635126_m_2068768676317424=
611_m_-544174569189695"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Peter McCann [mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.<=
wbr>com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 22:37<br>
<b>To:</b> Lorenzo Colitti &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank">lorenzo@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Agree, I am not arguing in favor of s=
haring a prefix between two or more MNs at the same time.=C2=A0 However,
 I think it is important to reclaim a prefix for use by another MN after th=
e current MN has moved to a new attachment point and stopped using the pref=
ix it got from the old attachment point.=C2=A0=C2=A0 It is also important t=
o refrain from advertising the prefix to another
 MN until the current MN has stopped using it.=C2=A0 That is the network st=
ate I am talking about.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">-Pete</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Lorenzo Colitti [<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto:lorenzo@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 3:32 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On the particular case of shared links: note that th=
ey have substantial scalability and performance issues. In order for shared=
 links to work you have to engage in DAD proxying,
 ND snooping, client isolation and all sorts of unsavoury and L2/L3 magic t=
hat does not scale. Some of these issues are described in RFC 7934 section =
9.3. On shared links, these forces act to reduce the number of IP addresses=
 per host that the network can support
 and leads to the negative consequences in section 4 of the document, which=
 is why they are not recommended.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For these and other reasons, on many public networks=
 we&#39;re seeing a shift *away* from shared links - see, for example, draf=
t-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-<wbr>prefix-per-host , and the current
 large deployments of that model in the form of Comcast community wifi.<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For many years 3GPP networks have been providing tho=
se benefits by providing a full /64 to every host. I would hate to lose tho=
se benefits.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Peter McCann &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@hua=
wei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">With a fixed access network the prefi=
x can be assigned to the link and used by anyone who joins the
 link.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">With a prefix offering mobility the p=
refix belongs to the mobile host and needs to move with it.=C2=A0 There
 aren=E2=80=99t enough prefixes (even in IPv6) to assign a permanent prefix=
 to each UE for every topological attachment point that it might visit or s=
tart a session from.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">-Pete</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lorenzo@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 3:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a></span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But you have that problem with IP addresses as well,=
 right? I don&#39;t see how &quot;assigning a prefix with certain propertie=
s&quot; requires more state in the network than &quot;assigning an IP
 address with certain properties&quot;.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Peter McCann &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@hua=
wei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Providing any kind of mobility servic=
e for a prefix will require some state somewhere in the network.=C2=A0
 It would be great to avoid an allocation request / response for the prefix=
, but the state has to be created somehow before the UE can use the prefix =
and it has to be reclaimed eventually after the UE stops using the prefix (=
which may not be until well after
 it disconnects from the current link and moves to another one).</span><u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Would welcome any suggestions on how =
to manage this state.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">-Pete</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> dmm [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:=
dmm-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Lorenzo Colitti<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 12:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">
dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I like the goal of reducing network cost by allowing=
 the use of IP addresses that do not require network mobility, but we shoul=
d not be doing this by requesting IP addresses from
 the network, because this violates IPv6 address assignment best practices.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Specifically, RFC 7934 recommends that a) the networ=
k should provide multiple addresses from each prefix and b) the network sho=
uld allow the host to use new addresses without requiring
 explicit requests to the network. This is in conflict with at least this t=
ext in the draft, which says:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0In case an application<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0requests one, the IP stack shall make a=
n attempt to configure one by<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0issuing a request to the network.=C2=A0=
 If the operation fails, the IP<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0stack shall fail the associated socket =
request<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">One way to resolve this conflict would be to say tha=
t the network must not assign individual addresses, but /64 (or shorter) pr=
efixes. So if the device desires to use fixed IPv6
 addresses, then the network should give the host a fixed IPv6 prefix from =
which the host can form as many addresses as it wants.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I do not think we should advance this document until=
 the conflicts are resolved. This document is about IPv6 address assignment=
 to mobile nodes, and we should not publish a document
 about IPv6 address assignment that conflicts with best current practices o=
n IPv6 address assignment.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Lorenzo<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 12:56 PM, jouni.nospam &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gma=
il.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Folks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The authors of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility=
-07 and=C2=A0draft-sijeon-dmm-use-<wbr>cases-api-source have come up with a=
 merged document=C2=A0draft-ietf-dmm-<wbr>ondemand-mobility-08.<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This email starts a 2 week WGLC for=C2=A0draft-ietf-=
dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Provide your comments, concerns and approvals to the=
 email list (and hopefully also to IssueTracker).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Jouni &amp; Dapeng<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Begin forwarded message:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">IET=
F Secretariat &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Subject: IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr=
>mobility</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Date:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Nov=
ember 28, 2016 at 12:51:34 PM PST</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">To:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:dmm-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com" target=3D"_blank">max.ldp@a=
libaba-inc.com</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Resent-From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:alias-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">alias-bounces@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Resent-To:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a =
href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail=
.com</a>,
<a href=3D"mailto:maxpassion@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">maxpassion@gmail.=
com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility has been changed=
 to<br>
&quot;In WG Last Call&quot; from &quot;WG Document&quot; by Jouni Korhonen:=
<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobilit=
y/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-ietf-dmm-=
ondemand-<wbr>mobility/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Comment:<br>
WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
dmm mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/dmm</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p>------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>--=
-------<br>
A member of the Intel Corporation group of companies<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for<br=
>
the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution<br>
by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended<br>
recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies.<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p>------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>--=
-------<br>
A member of the Intel Corporation group of companies</p>

<p>This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for<br=
>
the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution<br>
by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended<br>
recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies.</p></div></div>=
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c11bf082725930542e937e5--


From nobody Mon Dec  5 07:47:01 2016
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From: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 15:43:27 +0000
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Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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From: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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Cc: "draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org>, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, "dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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From: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>
To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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From: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
To: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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--_000_5963DDF1F751474D8DEEFDCDBEE43AE77DB5A4B8SZXEML503MBSchi_--


From nobody Tue Dec  6 03:02:51 2016
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From: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>
To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 11:02:12 +0000
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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 03:43:02 -0800
Message-ID: <CAKD1Yr3YFaUNOmoBK_gtQQb95dDA1jxxqm77nV0-iCMT-vFM_g@mail.gmail.com>
To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
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Cc: "draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org>, "dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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The network can't do NUD for a prefix, but it can do NUD for the link-local
IPv6 address that sent the RS that caused it to announce the prefix.

Even better would be to make it the responsibility of the link layer to let
the network know if the MN is still attached. Most link layers used in
mobile networks have to do this anyway.

On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:02 AM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
wrote:

> In the prefixcost draft, we handwaved a solution that would keep soft
> state in the network and have the network initiate NUD when it hadn=E2=80=
=99t seen
> a given address being used by the MN for a while.  However, NUD only work=
s
> on individual addresses not whole prefixes.  It might be good to have an
> explicit message from a MN that says =E2=80=9CI am done using this prefix=
=E2=80=9D but this
> problem is bigger than DMM.  I am not sure what is the right solution.
>
>
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Moses, Danny [mailto:danny.moses@intel.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, December 05, 2016 1:01 PM
> *To:* Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>; Lorenzo Colitti <
> lorenzo@google.com>
> *Cc:* draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> That is correct.
>
>
>
> Do we need a draft about freeing addresses/prefixes?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Danny
>
>
>
> *From:* dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org <dmm-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Peter McCann
> *Sent:* Monday, December 05, 2016 17:43
> *To:* Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
> *Cc:* draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> That may work for communicating the allocation state of the prefix to the
> MN, but too frequent advertisements may chew up precious wireless
> bandwidth.  Also, it doesn=E2=80=99t solve the problem of allowing the ne=
twork to
> detect when the MN is done using the prefix.
>
>
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com <lorenzo@google.com>]
> *Sent:* Sunday, December 04, 2016 9:21 PM
> *To:* Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-
> mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> Agreed; if we want to support this sort of mobility it needs to be
> possible to tell a MN that its previous prefix is no longer valid.
>
>
>
> From a technical perspective this can be done using router advertisements=
,
> except for the 2-hour rule in RFC 4862 section 5.3.3. That rule exists to
> prevent DOS attacks on shared links, so I think it would be reasonable to
> update RFC 4862 to say that less-than-2-hour valid lifetimes are acceptab=
le
> if the link provides strong guarantees that there are no other nodes on
> link that can mount such an attack.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> wrote:
>
> Agree, I am not arguing in favor of sharing a prefix between two or more
> MNs at the same time.  However, I think it is important to reclaim a pref=
ix
> for use by another MN after the current MN has moved to a new attachment
> point and stopped using the prefix it got from the old attachment point.
> It is also important to refrain from advertising the prefix to another MN
> until the current MN has stopped using it.  That is the network state I a=
m
> talking about.
>
>
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2016 3:32 PM
>
>
> *To:* Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-
> mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> On the particular case of shared links: note that they have substantial
> scalability and performance issues. In order for shared links to work you
> have to engage in DAD proxying, ND snooping, client isolation and all sor=
ts
> of unsavoury and L2/L3 magic that does not scale. Some of these issues ar=
e
> described in RFC 7934 section 9.3. On shared links, these forces act to
> reduce the number of IP addresses per host that the network can support a=
nd
> leads to the negative consequences in section 4 of the document, which is
> why they are not recommended.
>
>
>
> For these and other reasons, on many public networks we're seeing a shift
> *away* from shared links - see, for example, draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6=
-prefix-per-host
> , and the current large deployments of that model in the form of Comcast
> community wifi.
>
>
>
> For many years 3GPP networks have been providing those benefits by
> providing a full /64 to every host. I would hate to lose those benefits.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> wrote:
>
> With a fixed access network the prefix can be assigned to the link and
> used by anyone who joins the link.
>
>
>
> With a prefix offering mobility the prefix belongs to the mobile host and
> needs to move with it.  There aren=E2=80=99t enough prefixes (even in IPv=
6) to
> assign a permanent prefix to each UE for every topological attachment poi=
nt
> that it might visit or start a session from.
>
>
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2016 3:09 PM
> *To:* Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-
> mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> But you have that problem with IP addresses as well, right? I don't see
> how "assigning a prefix with certain properties" requires more state in t=
he
> network than "assigning an IP address with certain properties".
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
> wrote:
>
> Providing any kind of mobility service for a prefix will require some
> state somewhere in the network.  It would be great to avoid an allocation
> request / response for the prefix, but the state has to be created someho=
w
> before the UE can use the prefix and it has to be reclaimed eventually
> after the UE stops using the prefix (which may not be until well after it
> disconnects from the current link and moves to another one).
>
>
>
> Would welcome any suggestions on how to manage this state.
>
>
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Lorenzo Colitti
> *Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2016 12:04 PM
> *To:* jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I like the goal of reducing network cost by allowing the use of IP
> addresses that do not require network mobility, but we should not be doin=
g
> this by requesting IP addresses from the network, because this violates
> IPv6 address assignment best practices.
>
>
>
> Specifically, RFC 7934 recommends that a) the network should provide
> multiple addresses from each prefix and b) the network should allow the
> host to use new addresses without requiring explicit requests to the
> network. This is in conflict with at least this text in the draft, which
> says:
>
>
>
>    In case an application
>
>    requests one, the IP stack shall make an attempt to configure one by
>
>    issuing a request to the network.  If the operation fails, the IP
>
>    stack shall fail the associated socket request
>
>
>
> One way to resolve this conflict would be to say that the network must no=
t
> assign individual addresses, but /64 (or shorter) prefixes. So if the
> device desires to use fixed IPv6 addresses, then the network should give
> the host a fixed IPv6 prefix from which the host can form as many address=
es
> as it wants.
>
>
>
> I do not think we should advance this document until the conflicts are
> resolved. This document is about IPv6 address assignment to mobile nodes,
> and we should not publish a document about IPv6 address assignment that
> conflicts with best current practices on IPv6 address assignment.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 12:56 PM, jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> The authors of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-07
> and draft-sijeon-dmm-use-cases-api-source have come up with a merged
> document draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08.
>
>
>
> This email starts a 2 week WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08.
>
> The WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.
>
>
>
> Provide your comments, concerns and approvals to the email list (and
> hopefully also to IssueTracker).
>
>
>
> - Jouni & Dapeng
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>
>
> *From: *IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org>
>
> *Subject: IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility*
>
> *Date: *November 28, 2016 at 12:51:34 PM PST
>
> *To: *<draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org>, <dmm-chairs@ietf.org>,
> <max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com>
>
> *Resent-From: *<alias-bounces@ietf.org>
>
> *Resent-To: *jouni.nospam@gmail.com, maxpassion@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility has been changed to
> "In WG Last Call" from "WG Document" by Jouni Korhonen:
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility/
>
>
> Comment:
> WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dmm mailing list
> dmm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> A member of the Intel Corporation group of companies
>
> This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for
> the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution
> by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies.
>

--001a113eb2c2670adb0542fbe947
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr">The network can&#39;t do NUD for a prefix, but it can do N=
UD for the link-local IPv6 address that sent the RS that caused it to annou=
nce the prefix.<div><br></div><div>Even better would be to make it the resp=
onsibility of the link layer to let the network know if the MN is still att=
ached. Most link layers used in mobile networks have to do this anyway.</di=
v></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, D=
ec 5, 2016 at 11:02 AM, Peter McCann <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt=
;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_1137014371673386382WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">In the prefixcost draft, we handwaved=
 a solution that would keep soft state in the network and have the network =
initiate NUD when it hadn=E2=80=99t seen a given address
 being used by the MN for a while.=C2=A0 However, NUD only works on individ=
ual addresses not whole prefixes.=C2=A0 It might be good to have an explici=
t message from a MN that says =E2=80=9CI am done using this prefix=E2=80=9D=
 but this problem is bigger than DMM.=C2=A0 I am not sure what
 is the right solution.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">-Pete<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Moses, Danny [mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:danny.moses@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">danny.moses@intel.com</=
a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 05, 2016 1:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;; Lorenzo Colitti &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lorenzo@google.com</a>&gt;=
<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">That is correct.<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Do we need a draft about freeing addr=
esses/prefixes?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Danny<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_1137014371673386382__MailEndCompose"></=
a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-seri=
f;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> dmm [<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Peter McCann<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 05, 2016 17:43<br>
<b>To:</b> Lorenzo Colitti &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank">lorenzo@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">That may work for communicating the a=
llocation state of the prefix to the MN, but too frequent advertisements ma=
y chew up precious wireless bandwidth.=C2=A0 Also,
 it doesn=E2=80=99t solve the problem of allowing the network to detect whe=
n the MN is done using the prefix.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">-Pete<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Lorenzo Colitti [<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto:lorenzo@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 04, 2016 9:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed; if we want to support this sort of mobility =
it needs to be possible to tell a MN that its previous prefix is no longer =
valid.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">From a technical perspective this can be done using =
router advertisements, except for the 2-hour rule in RFC 4862 section 5.3.3=
. That rule exists to prevent DOS attacks on shared links, so I think it wo=
uld be reasonable to update RFC 4862
 to say that less-than-2-hour valid lifetimes are acceptable if the link pr=
ovides strong guarantees that there are no other nodes on link that can mou=
nt such an attack.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Peter McCann &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@hua=
wei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Agree, I am not arguing in favor of s=
haring a prefix between two or more MNs at the same time.=C2=A0 However,
 I think it is important to reclaim a prefix for use by another MN after th=
e current MN has moved to a new attachment point and stopped using the pref=
ix it got from the old attachment point.=C2=A0=C2=A0 It is also important t=
o refrain from advertising the prefix to another
 MN until the current MN has stopped using it.=C2=A0 That is the network st=
ate I am talking about.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">-Pete</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lorenzo@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 3:32 PM</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>To:</b> Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On the particular case of shared links: note that th=
ey have substantial scalability and performance issues. In order for shared=
 links to work you have to engage in DAD proxying,
 ND snooping, client isolation and all sorts of unsavoury and L2/L3 magic t=
hat does not scale. Some of these issues are described in RFC 7934 section =
9.3. On shared links, these forces act to reduce the number of IP addresses=
 per host that the network can support
 and leads to the negative consequences in section 4 of the document, which=
 is why they are not recommended.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For these and other reasons, on many public networks=
 we&#39;re seeing a shift *away* from shared links - see, for example, draf=
t-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-<wbr>prefix-per-host , and the current
 large deployments of that model in the form of Comcast community wifi.<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For many years 3GPP networks have been providing tho=
se benefits by providing a full /64 to every host. I would hate to lose tho=
se benefits.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Peter McCann &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@hua=
wei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">With a fixed access network the prefi=
x can be assigned to the link and used by anyone who joins the
 link.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">With a prefix offering mobility the p=
refix belongs to the mobile host and needs to move with it.=C2=A0 There
 aren=E2=80=99t enough prefixes (even in IPv6) to assign a permanent prefix=
 to each UE for every topological attachment point that it might visit or s=
tart a session from.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">-Pete</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lorenzo@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 3:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a></span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But you have that problem with IP addresses as well,=
 right? I don&#39;t see how &quot;assigning a prefix with certain propertie=
s&quot; requires more state in the network than &quot;assigning an IP
 address with certain properties&quot;.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Peter McCann &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@hua=
wei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Providing any kind of mobility servic=
e for a prefix will require some state somewhere in the network.=C2=A0
 It would be great to avoid an allocation request / response for the prefix=
, but the state has to be created somehow before the UE can use the prefix =
and it has to be reclaimed eventually after the UE stops using the prefix (=
which may not be until well after
 it disconnects from the current link and moves to another one).</span><u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Would welcome any suggestions on how =
to manage this state.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">-Pete</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> dmm [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:=
dmm-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Lorenzo Colitti<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 12:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">
dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I like the goal of reducing network cost by allowing=
 the use of IP addresses that do not require network mobility, but we shoul=
d not be doing this by requesting IP addresses from
 the network, because this violates IPv6 address assignment best practices.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Specifically, RFC 7934 recommends that a) the networ=
k should provide multiple addresses from each prefix and b) the network sho=
uld allow the host to use new addresses without requiring
 explicit requests to the network. This is in conflict with at least this t=
ext in the draft, which says:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0In case an application<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0requests one, the IP stack shall make a=
n attempt to configure one by<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0issuing a request to the network.=C2=A0=
 If the operation fails, the IP<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0stack shall fail the associated socket =
request<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">One way to resolve this conflict would be to say tha=
t the network must not assign individual addresses, but /64 (or shorter) pr=
efixes. So if the device desires to use fixed IPv6
 addresses, then the network should give the host a fixed IPv6 prefix from =
which the host can form as many addresses as it wants.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I do not think we should advance this document until=
 the conflicts are resolved. This document is about IPv6 address assignment=
 to mobile nodes, and we should not publish a document
 about IPv6 address assignment that conflicts with best current practices o=
n IPv6 address assignment.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Lorenzo<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 12:56 PM, jouni.nospam &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gma=
il.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Folks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The authors of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility=
-07 and=C2=A0draft-sijeon-dmm-use-<wbr>cases-api-source have come up with a=
 merged document=C2=A0draft-ietf-dmm-<wbr>ondemand-mobility-08.<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This email starts a 2 week WGLC for=C2=A0draft-ietf-=
dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Provide your comments, concerns and approvals to the=
 email list (and hopefully also to IssueTracker).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Jouni &amp; Dapeng<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Begin forwarded message:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">IET=
F Secretariat &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Subject: IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr=
>mobility</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Date:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Nov=
ember 28, 2016 at 12:51:34 PM PST</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">To:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:dmm-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com" target=3D"_blank">max.ldp@a=
libaba-inc.com</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Resent-From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:alias-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">alias-bounces@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Resent-To:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a =
href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail=
.com</a>,
<a href=3D"mailto:maxpassion@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">maxpassion@gmail.=
com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility has been changed=
 to<br>
&quot;In WG Last Call&quot; from &quot;WG Document&quot; by Jouni Korhonen:=
<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobilit=
y/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-ietf-dmm-=
ondemand-<wbr>mobility/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Comment:<br>
WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.<u></u><u></u></p>
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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 03:43:17 -0800
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To: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>
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Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com> wrote:

> I think it is important to describe that application developer can
> influence the type of service the IP session is receiving, while being
> vague about the mechanism of address allocation. Since you are concern wi=
th
> the draft using the term =E2=80=98address=E2=80=99 and I am concern with =
using the term
> =E2=80=98prefix=E2=80=99, I tried using the term =E2=80=98network resourc=
es=E2=80=99. Yes, it is vague, but
> that is the intention.
>

Ok, but what other type of resource can result in the MN being able to use
an IP address? It seems to me that only an IP address or a prefix will
qualify. And if allocating address on request is recommended, then that
only leaves a prefix.

If there are other types of resource that I'm missing, then "resource"
might be OK, as long as it has appropriate examples. But if the only two
options are "address" and "prefix" and "address" is not recommended, then
saying "resource" is at best unhelpful and at worst misleading.

Can you explain why you are concerned with using the term "prefix"?

--94eb2c1188b8425be50542fbeaf2
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On M=
on, Dec 5, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Moses, Danny <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:danny.moses@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">danny.moses@intel.com</a>&gt=
;</span> wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_8977205529792443209WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt">I think it is important to describe that app=
lication developer can influence the type of service the IP session is rece=
iving, while being vague about the mechanism
 of address allocation. Since you are concern with the draft using the term=
 =E2=80=98address=E2=80=99 and I am concern with using the term =E2=80=98pr=
efix=E2=80=99, I tried using the term =E2=80=98network resources=E2=80=99. =
Yes, it is vague, but that is the intention.</span><br></p></div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div>Ok, but what other type of resource can result=
 in the MN being able to use an IP address? It seems to me that only an IP =
address or a prefix will qualify. And if allocating address on request is r=
ecommended, then that only leaves a prefix.</div><div><br></div><div>If the=
re are other types of resource that I&#39;m missing, then &quot;resource&qu=
ot; might be OK, as long as it has appropriate examples. But if the only tw=
o options are &quot;address&quot; and &quot;prefix&quot; and &quot;address&=
quot; is not recommended, then saying &quot;resource&quot; is at best unhel=
pful and at worst misleading.</div><div><br></div><div>Can you explain why =
you are concerned with using the term &quot;prefix&quot;?</div></div></div>=
</div>

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From: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 00:20:01 +0900
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To: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>
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Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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Danny,

I don't think assigning addresses vs. assigning prefixes is a question only
of mechanism.

For example, consider the IPV6_REQUIRE_SRC_ON_NET flag. If the network is
following IP addressing best practices, I don't see a need for it. If a
host already has an IPv6 address of the desired type, what's the point of
sending a request to the network to obtain one? Is it so that the
requesting app can obtain a new IP address with the desired properties,
unique to that particular socket? But if so, the host should just create a
new address for that socket, with the desired properties. The network
should not be requiring that the host ask for individual IP addresses; it
should be allowing the host to form more IP addresses without requesting
them.

In any case: since the socket options defined in this draft are IPv6-only,
it only needs to concern itself with IPv6, and we're really only left with
one case: a prefix. If so, how about the following?

=3D=3D=3D=3D
When the IP stack is required to use a source IP address of a specific
type, it can perform one of the following: it can use an existing address
with the desired type (if it has one), or it can create a new one from an
existing prefix of the desired type. If the host does not already have an
IPv6 prefix of the specific type, it can request one from the network.

Using an address from an existing prefix is faster but might yield a less
optimal route (if a hand-off event occurred since its configuration), on
the other hand, acquiring a new IP prefix from the network may take some
time (due to signaling exchange with the network) and may fail due to
network policies.
=3D=3D=3D=3D

Cheers,
Lorenzo

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 9:27 PM, Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com> wrote:

> Firstly, I agree that the only two examples of =E2=80=98resource=E2=80=99=
 type that may
> result with a creation of a source IP address are (i) an IP address and
> (ii) an IP prefix. I cannot think of any other magic, but perhaps some el=
se
> can=E2=80=A6
>
>
>
> I am trying to avoid the term =E2=80=98prefix=E2=80=99 because it is not =
directly related
> to the Socket interface and I am trying to separate the definitions relat=
ed
> to the Socket interface from the definitions related to the interaction
> between the MN and network.
>
>
>
> If I mention prefixes, I will have to explain that the network may
> allocate IP addresses or IP sockets and that in cellular networks the
> recommended mechanism is to allocate /64 prefixes=E2=80=A6 I do not want =
to get
> into these details because they are not helpful for Socket API users.
>
>
>
> However, I do intend to get into these details (and refer to the
> recommendation of RFC 7934) in the drafts that describe the extensions
> required to convey the IP service type between the IP stack in the MN and
> the network.
>
>
>
> *From:* Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 06, 2016 13:43
> *To:* Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com>
> *Cc:* Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>; jouni.nospam <
> jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org;
> dmm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com>
> wrote:
>
> I think it is important to describe that application developer can
> influence the type of service the IP session is receiving, while being
> vague about the mechanism of address allocation. Since you are concern wi=
th
> the draft using the term =E2=80=98address=E2=80=99 and I am concern with =
using the term
> =E2=80=98prefix=E2=80=99, I tried using the term =E2=80=98network resourc=
es=E2=80=99. Yes, it is vague, but
> that is the intention.
>
>
>
> Ok, but what other type of resource can result in the MN being able to us=
e
> an IP address? It seems to me that only an IP address or a prefix will
> qualify. And if allocating address on request is recommended, then that
> only leaves a prefix.
>
>
>
> If there are other types of resource that I'm missing, then "resource"
> might be OK, as long as it has appropriate examples. But if the only two
> options are "address" and "prefix" and "address" is not recommended, then
> saying "resource" is at best unhelpful and at worst misleading.
>
>
>
> Can you explain why you are concerned with using the term "prefix"?
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> A member of the Intel Corporation group of companies
>
> This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for
> the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution
> by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies.
>

--94eb2c1188b85cce0b0542fef129
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Danny,<div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t think assigning addr=
esses vs. assigning prefixes is a question only of mechanism.</div><div><br=
></div><div>For example, consider the IPV6_REQUIRE_SRC_ON_NET flag. If the =
network is following IP addressing best practices, I don&#39;t see a need f=
or it. If a host already has an IPv6 address of the desired type, what&#39;=
s the point of sending a request to the network to obtain one? Is it so tha=
t the requesting app can obtain a new IP address with the desired propertie=
s, unique to that particular socket? But if so, the host should just create=
 a new address for that socket, with the desired properties. The network sh=
ould not be requiring that the host ask for individual IP addresses; it sho=
uld be allowing the host to form more IP addresses without requesting them.=
</div><div><br></div><div>In any case: since the socket options defined in =
this draft are IPv6-only, it only needs to concern itself with IPv6, and we=
&#39;re really only left with one case: a prefix. If so, how about the foll=
owing?<br></div><div><br></div><div>=3D=3D=3D=3D</div><div>When the IP stac=
k is required to use a source IP address of a specific type, it can perform=
 one of the following: it can use an existing address with the desired type=
 (if it has one), or it can create a new one from an existing prefix of the=
 desired type. If the host does not already have an IPv6 prefix of the spec=
ific type, it can request one from the network.</div><div><br></div><div>Us=
ing an address from an existing prefix is faster but might yield a less opt=
imal route (if a hand-off event occurred since its configuration), on the o=
ther hand, acquiring a new IP prefix from the network may take some time (d=
ue to signaling exchange with the network) and may fail due to network poli=
cies.</div><div>=3D=3D=3D=3D</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,<br></div><div=
>Lorenzo</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e">On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 9:27 PM, Moses, Danny <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:danny.moses@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">danny.moses@intel.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_2456947490266974938WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Firstly, I agree that the only two ex=
amples of =E2=80=98resource=E2=80=99 type that may result with a creation o=
f a source IP address are (i) an IP address and (ii) an IP prefix.
 I cannot think of any other magic, but perhaps some else can=E2=80=A6<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I am trying to avoid the term =E2=80=
=98prefix=E2=80=99 because it is not directly related to the Socket interfa=
ce and I am trying to separate the definitions related to the Socket
 interface from the definitions related to the interaction between the MN a=
nd network.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">If I mention prefixes, I will have to=
 explain that the network may allocate IP addresses or IP sockets and that =
in cellular networks the recommended mechanism
 is to allocate /64 prefixes=E2=80=A6 I do not want to get into these detai=
ls because they are not helpful for Socket API users.<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">However, I do intend to get into thes=
e details (and refer to the recommendation of RFC 7934) in the drafts that =
describe the extensions required to convey the
 IP service type between the IP stack in the MN and the network. <u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_2456947490266974938__MailEndCompose"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;co=
lor:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lorenzo@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 06, 2016 13:43<span class=3D""><br>
<b>To:</b> Moses, Danny &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:danny.moses@intel.com" target=
=3D"_blank">danny.moses@intel.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;; jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"=
mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
<u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Moses, Danny &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:danny.moses@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">danny.moses@intel.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think it is important to describe t=
hat application developer can influence the type of service the
 IP session is receiving, while being vague about the mechanism of address =
allocation. Since you are concern with the draft using the term =E2=80=98ad=
dress=E2=80=99 and I am concern with using the term =E2=80=98prefix=E2=80=
=99, I tried using the term =E2=80=98network resources=E2=80=99. Yes, it is=
 vague,
 but that is the intention.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ok, but what other type of resource can result in th=
e MN being able to use an IP address? It seems to me that only an IP addres=
s or a prefix will qualify. And if allocating address on request is recomme=
nded, then that only leaves a prefix.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If there are other types of resource that I&#39;m mi=
ssing, then &quot;resource&quot; might be OK, as long as it has appropriate=
 examples. But if the only two options are &quot;address&quot; and &quot;pr=
efix&quot; and &quot;address&quot; is not recommended, then saying &quot;re=
source&quot;
 is at best unhelpful and at worst misleading.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Can you explain why you are concerned with using the=
 term &quot;prefix&quot;?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>
<p>------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>--=
-------<span class=3D""><br>
A member of the Intel Corporation group of companies</span></p><span class=
=3D"">

<p>This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for<br=
>
the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution<br>
by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended<br>
recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies.</p></span></div=
>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c1188b85cce0b0542fef129--


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From: "Seil Jeon" <seiljeon@gmail.com>
To: "'Lorenzo Colitti'" <lorenzo@google.com>
References: <148036629464.5478.15248622721170321679.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6E8FD89A-A217-4958-8DF8-EE7D0CD77F13@gmail.com> <CAKD1Yr3nCfMFz_1wqvDmiyMK2OiKZAwYTv2GKN9axf7JuOdtxA@mail.gmail.com> <5963DDF1F751474D8DEEFDCDBEE43AE77DB5988B@SZXEML503-MBS.china.huawei.com> <CAKD1Yr3J0XQSLGHBX52pD8rGbk-UsSqfJpUkBSDOvO3k9ORSaw@mail.gmail.com> <5963DDF1F751474D8DEEFDCDBEE43AE77DB598CA@SZXEML503-MBS.china.huawei.com> <CAKD1Yr1wzpyryb+T5N7FkVSpPfnZWKG_OH3izo35i8JjR=y+Ow@mail.gmail.com> <5963DDF1F751474D8DEEFDCDBEE43AE77DB59938@SZXEML503-MBS.china.huawei.com> <F0CF5715D3D1884BAC731EA1103AC28134AA2986@HASMSX105.ger.corp.intel.com> <CAKD1Yr2UPaGKvTN4750G7Fa0dxkpzapMN+AUQc4i2PmJ9mgM2Q@mail.gmail.com> <F0CF5715D3D1884BAC731EA1103AC28134AA2B7C@HASMSX105.ger.corp.intel.com> <CAKD1Yr3XLtYOOzv+yLsH0Bv_X5wqxcO4F1B5axS_zKr5vfsJeQ@mail.gmail.com> <F0CF5715D3D1884BAC731EA1103AC28134AA3C99@HASMSX105.ger.corp.intel.com> <CAKD1Yr1-YRtMwN+BFpWL4oyb-CXMAEmiZTDpOZ42VLBMiHnBpA@mail.gmail.com> <F0CF5715D3D1884BAC731EA1103AC281 34AA4533@HASMSX105.ger.corp.intel.com> <CAKD1Yr2gjXcjsy8i_HOy4wxNtCrgP_=mqrziTocVNswMUa0SsQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Cc: 'Peter McCann' <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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Hi Lorenzo,

=20

Please see inline.

=20

Regards,

Seil Jeon

=20

From: dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lorenzo Colitti
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 12:20 AM
To: Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com>
Cc: draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; Peter McCann =
<Peter.McCann@huawei.com>; dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08

=20

Danny,

=20

I don't think assigning addresses vs. assigning prefixes is a question =
only of mechanism.

=20

For example, consider the IPV6_REQUIRE_SRC_ON_NET flag. If the network =
is following IP addressing best practices, I don't see a need for it. If =
a host already has an IPv6 address of the desired type, what's the point =
of sending a request to the network to obtain one?

=20

The reason is well described in  =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sijeon-dmm-use-cases-api-source-05> =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sijeon-dmm-use-cases-api-source-05 =
like following

=20

Acquiring a new session-lasting IP address may take some

   time (due to the exchange with the network) while using an existing

   one is instantaneous.  On the other hand, using the existing one

   might yield less optimal routing.  For example, the use of the IP

   address with an existing one configured might provide a suboptimal

   routing path as a result of a handover.  This situation might not be

   preferred by newly initiated applications because the application

   incurs the costs of IP mobility even though the MN has not moved from

   the current serving network.  Eventually, the new session is served

   by a remote IP mobility anchor with mobility management functions,

   though the MN has not moved yet.

=20

Is it so that the requesting app can obtain a new IP address with the =
desired properties, unique to that particular socket? But if so, the =
host should just create a new address for that socket, with the desired =
properties. The network should not be requiring that the host ask for =
individual IP addresses; it should be allowing the host to form more IP =
addresses without requesting them.

=20

In any case: since the socket options defined in this draft are =
IPv6-only, it only needs to concern itself with IPv6, and we're really =
only left with one case: a prefix. If so, how about the following?

=20

=E2=80=9CBy issuing a request to the network=E2=80=9D you pointed out in =
the previous mails has been described as the on demand nature for a long =
time in [I-D. draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility]. If it is an issue =
INDEED, it needs to be revised not with individual address but with =
prefix. Would it be better?

=20

Second, from your text, the reason to use the proposed API is not to use =
the address based on the same prefix. =E2=80=9CCreating a new one from =
an existing prefix of the desired type=E2=80=9D is away from the =
intention.

=20

=3D=3D=3D=3D

When the IP stack is required to use a source IP address of a specific =
type, it can perform one of the following: it can use an existing =
address with the desired type (if it has one), or it can create a new =
one from an existing prefix of the desired type. If the host does not =
already have an IPv6 prefix of the specific type, it can request one =
from the network.

=20

Using an address from an existing prefix is faster but might yield a =
less optimal route (if a hand-off event occurred since its =
configuration), on the other hand, acquiring a new IP prefix from the =
network may take some time (due to signaling exchange with the network) =
and may fail due to network policies.

=3D=3D=3D=3D

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

Cheers,

Lorenzo

=20

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 9:27 PM, Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com =
<mailto:danny.moses@intel.com> > wrote:

Firstly, I agree that the only two examples of =
=E2=80=98resource=E2=80=99 type that may result with a creation of a =
source IP address are (i) an IP address and (ii) an IP prefix. I cannot =
think of any other magic, but perhaps some else can=E2=80=A6

=20

I am trying to avoid the term =E2=80=98prefix=E2=80=99 because it is not =
directly related to the Socket interface and I am trying to separate the =
definitions related to the Socket interface from the definitions related =
to the interaction between the MN and network.

=20

If I mention prefixes, I will have to explain that the network may =
allocate IP addresses or IP sockets and that in cellular networks the =
recommended mechanism is to allocate /64 prefixes=E2=80=A6 I do not want =
to get into these details because they are not helpful for Socket API =
users.

=20

However, I do intend to get into these details (and refer to the =
recommendation of RFC 7934) in the drafts that describe the extensions =
required to convey the IP service type between the IP stack in the MN =
and the network.=20

=20

From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto: <mailto:lorenzo@google.com> =
lorenzo@google.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 13:43
To: Moses, Danny < <mailto:danny.moses@intel.com> danny.moses@intel.com>
Cc: Peter McCann < <mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com> =
Peter.McCann@huawei.com>; jouni.nospam < <mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>;  =
<mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org> =
draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org;  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> =
dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08

=20

On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com =
<mailto:danny.moses@intel.com> > wrote:

I think it is important to describe that application developer can =
influence the type of service the IP session is receiving, while being =
vague about the mechanism of address allocation. Since you are concern =
with the draft using the term =E2=80=98address=E2=80=99 and I am concern =
with using the term =E2=80=98prefix=E2=80=99, I tried using the term =
=E2=80=98network resources=E2=80=99. Yes, it is vague, but that is the =
intention.

=20

Ok, but what other type of resource can result in the MN being able to =
use an IP address? It seems to me that only an IP address or a prefix =
will qualify. And if allocating address on request is recommended, then =
that only leaves a prefix.

=20

If there are other types of resource that I'm missing, then "resource" =
might be OK, as long as it has appropriate examples. But if the only two =
options are "address" and "prefix" and "address" is not recommended, =
then saying "resource" is at best unhelpful and at worst misleading.

=20

Can you explain why you are concerned with using the term "prefix"?

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DKO link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'word-break:break-hangul'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'>Hi Lorenzo,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'word-break:break-hangul'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'word-break:break-hangul'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'>Please see =
inline.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'word-break:break-hangul'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'word-break:break-hangul'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'word-break:break-hangul'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'>Seil Jeon<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'word-break:break-hangul'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> dmm =
[mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Lorenzo =
Colitti<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 07, 2016 12:20 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> Moses, Danny =
&lt;danny.moses@intel.com&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> =
draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; Peter McCann =
&lt;Peter.McCann@huawei.com&gt;; dmm@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[DMM] WGLC for =
draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>Danny,<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>I don't think assigning addresses =
vs. assigning prefixes is a question only of =
mechanism.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>For example, consider the =
IPV6_REQUIRE_SRC_ON_NET flag. If the network is following IP addressing =
best practices, I don't see a need for it. If a host already has an IPv6 =
address of the desired type, what's the point of sending a request to =
the network to obtain one?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'>The reason is well described in =
</span><span lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sijeon-dmm-use-cases-api-source=
-05"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95"'>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sijeon-dmm-use-cas=
es-api-source-05</span></a></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'> like =
following<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>Acquiring a new session-lasting IP address may take =
some<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 time (due to the exchange with the network) while =
using an existing<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 one is instantaneous.=C2=A0 On the other hand, using =
the existing one<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 might yield less optimal routing.=C2=A0 For example, =
the use of the IP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 address with an existing one configured might provide =
a suboptimal<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 routing path as a result of a handover.=C2=A0 This =
situation might not be<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 preferred by newly initiated applications because the =
application<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 incurs the costs of IP mobility even though the MN =
has not moved from<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 the current serving network.=C2=A0 Eventually, the =
new session is served<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 by a remote IP mobility anchor with mobility =
management functions,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 though the MN has not moved =
yet.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>Is it so that the requesting app =
can obtain a new IP address with the desired properties, unique to that =
particular socket? But if so, the host should just create a new address =
for that socket, with the desired properties. The network should not be =
requiring that the host ask for individual IP addresses; it should be =
allowing the host to form more IP addresses without requesting =
them.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>In any case: since the socket =
options defined in this draft are IPv6-only, it only needs to concern =
itself with IPv6, and we're really only left with one case: a prefix. If =
so, how about the following?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'>=E2=80=9C<span lang=3DEN-US>By =
issuing a request to the network</span>=E2=80=9D<span lang=3DEN-US> you =
pointed out in the previous mails has been described as the on demand =
nature for a long time in [I-D.</span></span><span lang=3DEN-US> =
</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'>draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility]. If =
it is an issue INDEED, it needs to be revised not with individual =
address but with prefix. Would it be better?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'>Second, from your text, the reason to =
use the proposed API is not to use the address based on the same prefix. =
=E2=80=9CCreating a new one from an existing prefix of the desired =
type=E2=80=9D is away from the intention.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US>=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>When the IP stack is required to =
use a source IP address of a specific type, it can perform one of the =
following: it can use an existing address with the desired type (if it =
has one), or it can create a new one from an existing prefix of the =
desired type. If the host does not already have an IPv6 prefix of the =
specific type, it can request one from the =
network.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>Using an address from an existing =
prefix is faster but might yield a less optimal route (if a hand-off =
event occurred since its configuration), on the other hand, acquiring a =
new IP prefix from the network may take some time (due to signaling =
exchange with the network) and may fail due to network =
policies.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US>=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Lorenzo<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 9:27 PM, =
Moses, Danny &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:danny.moses@intel.com" =
target=3D"_blank">danny.moses@intel.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Firstly, I agree that the only two examples of =
=E2=80=98resource=E2=80=99 type that may result with a creation of a =
source IP address are (i) an IP address and (ii) an IP prefix. I cannot =
think of any other magic, but perhaps some else can=E2=80=A6</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>I am trying to avoid the term =E2=80=98prefix=E2=80=99 because it is =
not directly related to the Socket interface and I am trying to separate =
the definitions related to the Socket interface from the definitions =
related to the interaction between the MN and network.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>If I mention prefixes, I will have to explain that the network may =
allocate IP addresses or IP sockets and that in cellular networks the =
recommended mechanism is to allocate /64 prefixes=E2=80=A6 I do not want =
to get into these details because they are not helpful for Socket API =
users.</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>However, I do intend to get into these details (and refer to the =
recommendation of RFC 7934) in the drafts that describe the extensions =
required to convey the IP service type between the IP stack in the MN =
and the network. </span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a =
name=3D"m_2456947490266974938__MailEndCompose"><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>&nbsp;</span></a><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Lorenzo =
Colitti [mailto:</span><span lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>lorenzo@googl=
e.com</span></a></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 06, 2016 13:43<br><b>To:</b> Moses, =
Danny &lt;</span><span lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"mailto:danny.moses@intel.com" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>danny.moses@i=
ntel.com</span></a></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>&gt;<br><b>Cc=
:</b> Peter McCann &lt;</span><span lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Peter.McCann@=
huawei.com</span></a></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>&gt;; =
jouni.nospam &lt;</span><span lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>jouni.nospam@=
gmail.com</span></a></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>&gt;; =
</span><span lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>draft-ietf-dm=
m-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org</span></a></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>; =
</span><span lang=3DEN-US><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>dmm@ietf.org<=
/span></a></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><br><b>Subjec=
t:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for =
draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Moses, Danny &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:danny.moses@intel.com" =
target=3D"_blank">danny.moses@intel.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>I think it is important to describe that application developer can =
influence the type of service the IP session is receiving, while being =
vague about the mechanism of address allocation. Since you are concern =
with the draft using the term =E2=80=98address=E2=80=99 and I am concern =
with using the term =E2=80=98prefix=E2=80=99, I tried using the term =
=E2=80=98network resources=E2=80=99. Yes, it is vague, but that is the =
intention.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Ok, but what other type of resource can result in the MN =
being able to use an IP address? It seems to me that only an IP address =
or a prefix will qualify. And if allocating address on request is =
recommended, then that only leaves a =
prefix.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>If there are other types of resource that I'm missing, then =
&quot;resource&quot; might be OK, as long as it has appropriate =
examples. But if the only two options are &quot;address&quot; and =
&quot;prefix&quot; and &quot;address&quot; is not recommended, then =
saying &quot;resource&quot; is at best unhelpful and at worst =
misleading.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Can you explain why you are concerned with using the term =
&quot;prefix&quot;?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div><p><span =
lang=3DEN-US>------------------------------------------------------------=
---------<br>A member of the Intel Corporation group of =
companies<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span lang=3DEN-US>This e-mail and any =
attachments may contain confidential material for<br>the sole use of the =
intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution<br>by others is =
strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended<br>recipient, please =
contact the sender and delete all =
copies.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01D25087.59ECE4B0--


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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 13:00:40 +0900
Message-ID: <CAKD1Yr1gM+fiLzBOhKqg+cgyqWgKjDUzgpvz5OY-4RU_u34TwQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Seil Jeon <seiljeon@gmail.com>
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Cc: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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Seil Jeon,

I'm not sure I understand. The draft implies that IPV6_REQUIRE_SRC_ON_NET
forces the device to talk to the network even if it already has a prefix
from the current network. Why do this?

Suppose the following sequence of events occurs.

   1. The device has a mobile (e.g., session-lasting) IPv6 prefix only.
   2. The device moves to a new attachment point and its only prefix (and
   only IP addresses) are now subject to suboptimal latency.
   3. An application wants to use an IPv6 address from the local network,
   in order to minimize latency.
   4. The device does not have a local prefix assigned by the local
   network, so it gets a local prefix from the network. This takes 1-2 seco=
nds.
   5. 100ms later, another application wants to use an IPv6 address from
   the local network.

At point 5, it is much more faster for the host to say, "I already have a
prefix from the local network, I will just create a new address from that
prefix" than to talk to the network.

Is IPV6_REQUIRE_SRC_ON_NET defined because at step 2, the device does not
know it has moved?

Regards,
Lorenzo

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 12:42 PM, Seil Jeon <seiljeon@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Lorenzo,
>
>
>
> Please see inline.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Seil Jeon
>
>
>
> *From:* dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Lorenzo Colitti
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 07, 2016 12:20 AM
> *To:* Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com>
> *Cc:* draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; Peter McCann <
> Peter.McCann@huawei.com>; dmm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> Danny,
>
>
>
> I don't think assigning addresses vs. assigning prefixes is a question
> only of mechanism.
>
>
>
> For example, consider the IPV6_REQUIRE_SRC_ON_NET flag. If the network is
> following IP addressing best practices, I don't see a need for it. If a
> host already has an IPv6 address of the desired type, what's the point of
> sending a request to the network to obtain one?
>
>
>
> The reason is well described in https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr
> aft-sijeon-dmm-use-cases-api-source-05 like following
>
>
>
> Acquiring a new session-lasting IP address may take some
>
>    time (due to the exchange with the network) while using an existing
>
>    one is instantaneous.  On the other hand, using the existing one
>
>    might yield less optimal routing.  For example, the use of the IP
>
>    address with an existing one configured might provide a suboptimal
>
>    routing path as a result of a handover.  This situation might not be
>
>    preferred by newly initiated applications because the application
>
>    incurs the costs of IP mobility even though the MN has not moved from
>
>    the current serving network.  Eventually, the new session is served
>
>    by a remote IP mobility anchor with mobility management functions,
>
>    though the MN has not moved yet.
>
>
>
> Is it so that the requesting app can obtain a new IP address with the
> desired properties, unique to that particular socket? But if so, the host
> should just create a new address for that socket, with the desired
> properties. The network should not be requiring that the host ask for
> individual IP addresses; it should be allowing the host to form more IP
> addresses without requesting them.
>
>
>
> In any case: since the socket options defined in this draft are IPv6-only=
,
> it only needs to concern itself with IPv6, and we're really only left wit=
h
> one case: a prefix. If so, how about the following?
>
>
>
> =E2=80=9CBy issuing a request to the network=E2=80=9D you pointed out in =
the previous
> mails has been described as the on demand nature for a long time in [I-D.
> draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility]. If it is an issue INDEED, it needs to
> be revised not with individual address but with prefix. Would it be bette=
r?
>
>
>
> Second, from your text, the reason to use the proposed API is not to use
> the address based on the same prefix. =E2=80=9CCreating a new one from an=
 existing
> prefix of the desired type=E2=80=9D is away from the intention.
>
>
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> When the IP stack is required to use a source IP address of a specific
> type, it can perform one of the following: it can use an existing address
> with the desired type (if it has one), or it can create a new one from an
> existing prefix of the desired type. If the host does not already have an
> IPv6 prefix of the specific type, it can request one from the network.
>
>
>
> Using an address from an existing prefix is faster but might yield a less
> optimal route (if a hand-off event occurred since its configuration), on
> the other hand, acquiring a new IP prefix from the network may take some
> time (due to signaling exchange with the network) and may fail due to
> network policies.
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 9:27 PM, Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com>
> wrote:
>
> Firstly, I agree that the only two examples of =E2=80=98resource=E2=80=99=
 type that may
> result with a creation of a source IP address are (i) an IP address and
> (ii) an IP prefix. I cannot think of any other magic, but perhaps some el=
se
> can=E2=80=A6
>
>
>
> I am trying to avoid the term =E2=80=98prefix=E2=80=99 because it is not =
directly related
> to the Socket interface and I am trying to separate the definitions relat=
ed
> to the Socket interface from the definitions related to the interaction
> between the MN and network.
>
>
>
> If I mention prefixes, I will have to explain that the network may
> allocate IP addresses or IP sockets and that in cellular networks the
> recommended mechanism is to allocate /64 prefixes=E2=80=A6 I do not want =
to get
> into these details because they are not helpful for Socket API users.
>
>
>
> However, I do intend to get into these details (and refer to the
> recommendation of RFC 7934) in the drafts that describe the extensions
> required to convey the IP service type between the IP stack in the MN and
> the network.
>
>
>
> *From:* Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 06, 2016 13:43
> *To:* Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com>
> *Cc:* Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>; jouni.nospam <
> jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org;
> dmm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com>
> wrote:
>
> I think it is important to describe that application developer can
> influence the type of service the IP session is receiving, while being
> vague about the mechanism of address allocation. Since you are concern wi=
th
> the draft using the term =E2=80=98address=E2=80=99 and I am concern with =
using the term
> =E2=80=98prefix=E2=80=99, I tried using the term =E2=80=98network resourc=
es=E2=80=99. Yes, it is vague, but
> that is the intention.
>
>
>
> Ok, but what other type of resource can result in the MN being able to us=
e
> an IP address? It seems to me that only an IP address or a prefix will
> qualify. And if allocating address on request is recommended, then that
> only leaves a prefix.
>
>
>
> If there are other types of resource that I'm missing, then "resource"
> might be OK, as long as it has appropriate examples. But if the only two
> options are "address" and "prefix" and "address" is not recommended, then
> saying "resource" is at best unhelpful and at worst misleading.
>
>
>
> Can you explain why you are concerned with using the term "prefix"?
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Seil Jeon,<div><br></div><div>I&#39;m not sure I understan=
d. The draft implies that IPV6_REQUIRE_SRC_ON_NET forces the device to talk=
 to the network even if it already has a prefix from the current network. W=
hy do this?</div><div><br></div><div>Suppose the following sequence of even=
ts occurs.</div><div><ol><li>The device has a mobile (e.g., session-lasting=
) IPv6 prefix only.<br></li><li>The device moves to a new attachment point =
and its only prefix (and only IP addresses) are now subject to suboptimal l=
atency.</li><li>An application wants to use an IPv6 address from the local =
network, in order to minimize latency.</li><li>The device does not have a l=
ocal prefix assigned by the local network, so it gets a local prefix from t=
he network. This takes 1-2 seconds.</li><li>100ms later, another applicatio=
n wants to use an IPv6 address from the local network.</li></ol><div>At poi=
nt 5, it is much more faster for the host to say, &quot;I already have a pr=
efix from the local network, I will just create a new address from that pre=
fix&quot; than to talk to the network.</div></div><div><br></div><div>Is=C2=
=A0IPV6_REQUIRE_SRC_ON_NET defined because at step 2, the device does not k=
now it has moved?</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Lorenzo</div>=
<div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec =
7, 2016 at 12:42 PM, Seil Jeon <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:seil=
jeon@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">seiljeon@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<=
br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"KO"><div =
class=3D"gmail-m_2947539245290837126m_6669756188475612429WordSection1"><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family=
:&quot;\00b9d1\00c740  \00ace0\00b515&quot;;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Hi Lorenz=
o,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;\00b9d1\00c740  \00ace0\00b515&quot;;=
color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;\00b9d1\00c=
740  \00ace0\00b515&quot;;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Please see inline.<u></u><u=
></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&quot;\00b9d1\00c740  \00ace0\00b515&quot;;color:rgb(3=
1,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;\00b9d1\00c740  \00ace=
0\00b515&quot;;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:=
&quot;\00b9d1\00c740  \00ace0\00b515&quot;;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Seil Jeon<=
u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;\00b9d1\00c740  \00ace0\00b515&quot;;c=
olor:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-se=
rif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:calibri,sans-serif"> dmm [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Lorenzo Co=
litti<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 07, 2016 12:20 AM<br><b>To:</b> M=
oses, Danny &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:danny.moses@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">=
danny.moses@intel.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dm=
m-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mob=
ili<wbr>ty@ietf.org</a>; Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@hu=
awei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a><span><br><b>Subject:</=
b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobili<wbr>ty-08<u></u><u></u=
></span></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Danny=
,<u></u><u></u></span></p><span><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US">I don&#39;t think assigning addresses vs. assigning prefix=
es is a question only of mechanism.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></di=
v></span><div><span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">For example=
, consider the IPV6_REQUIRE_SRC_ON_NET flag. If the network is following IP=
 addressing best practices, I don&#39;t see a need for it. If a host alread=
y has an IPv6 address of the desired type, what&#39;s the point of sending =
a request to the network to obtain one?<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></span><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family=
:&quot;\00b9d1\00c740  \00ace0\00b515&quot;;color:rgb(31,73,125)">The reaso=
n is well described in </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://tools=
.ietf.org/html/draft-sijeon-dmm-use-cases-api-source-05" target=3D"_blank">=
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;\00b9d1\00c740  \00ace0\00b=
515&quot;">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-sijeon-dmm-use-cases-api-=
<wbr>source-05</span></a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10p=
t;font-family:&quot;\00b9d1\00c740  \00ace0\00b515&quot;;color:rgb(31,73,12=
5)"> like following<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;\00b9d1\00c740  \00a=
ce0\00b515&quot;;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:=
=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:black">Acquiring a new session-lasting IP=
 address may take some<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=
=B2=B4;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 time (due to the exchange with the network=
) while using an existing<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=
=EC=B2=B4;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 one is instantaneous.=C2=A0 On the othe=
r hand, using the existing one<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=
=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 might yield less optimal routing.=C2=
=A0 For example, the use of the IP<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=
=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 address with an existing one c=
onfigured might provide a suboptimal<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=
=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 routing path as a result of a =
handover.=C2=A0 This situation might not be<u></u><u></u></span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:=
=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 preferred by newly in=
itiated applications because the application<u></u><u></u></span></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:=
=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 incurs the costs of I=
P mobility even though the MN has not moved from<u></u><u></u></span></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 the current servin=
g network.=C2=A0 Eventually, the new session is served<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fon=
t-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 by a remote =
IP mobility anchor with mobility management functions,<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fon=
t-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 though the M=
N has not moved yet.<u></u><u></u></span></p><span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;\00b9d1\00c74=
0  \00ace0\00b515&quot;;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></=
p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Is it so that the requesting =
app can obtain a new IP address with the desired properties, unique to that=
 particular socket? But if so, the host should just create a new address fo=
r that socket, with the desired properties. The network should not be requi=
ring that the host ask for individual IP addresses; it should be allowing t=
he host to form more IP addresses without requesting them.<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p></span></div><span><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US">In any case: since the socket options defined in this draft are=
 IPv6-only, it only needs to concern itself with IPv6, and we&#39;re really=
 only left with one case: a prefix. If so, how about the following?<u></u><=
u></u></span></p></div></span><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-=
US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;\00b9d1\00c740  \00ace0\00b515&quot;;color:r=
gb(31,73,125)">=E2=80=9C<span lang=3D"EN-US">By issuing a request to the ne=
twork</span>=E2=80=9D<span lang=3D"EN-US"> you pointed out in the previous =
mails has been described as the on demand nature for a long time in [I-D.</=
span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font=
-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;\00b9d1\00c740  \00ace0\00b515&quot;;color:rgb=
(31,73,125)">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobili<wbr>ty]. If it is an issue INDE=
ED, it needs to be revised not with individual address but with prefix. Wou=
ld it be better?<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;\00b9d1\00c740  \00ace=
0\00b515&quot;;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&q=
uot;\00b9d1\00c740  \00ace0\00b515&quot;;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Second, from=
 your text, the reason to use the proposed API is not to use the address ba=
sed on the same prefix. =E2=80=9CCreating a new one from an existing prefix=
 of the desired type=E2=80=9D is away from the intention.<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></p></div><div><div class=3D"gmail-m_2947539245290837126h5"><div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=3D=3D=3D=3D<u></u><u></u></span></p><=
/div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">When the IP stack is =
required to use a source IP address of a specific type, it can perform one =
of the following: it can use an existing address with the desired type (if =
it has one), or it can create a new one from an existing prefix of the desi=
red type. If the host does not already have an IPv6 prefix of the specific =
type, it can request one from the network.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Using an address =
from an existing prefix is faster but might yield a less optimal route (if =
a hand-off event occurred since its configuration), on the other hand, acqu=
iring a new IP prefix from the network may take some time (due to signaling=
 exchange with the network) and may fail due to network policies.<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=3D=
=3D=3D=3D<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Lorenzo<u></u><u></u></span></p></div>=
</div></div></div><div><div class=3D"gmail-m_2947539245290837126h5"><div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 9:27 =
PM, Moses, Danny &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:danny.moses@intel.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">danny.moses@intel.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p><blockquo=
te style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-lef=
t:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8=
pt"><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Firstly, I agre=
e that the only two examples of =E2=80=98resource=E2=80=99 type that may re=
sult with a creation of a source IP address are (i) an IP address and (ii) =
an IP prefix. I cannot think of any other magic, but perhaps some else can=
=E2=80=A6</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,=
sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><=
u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-=
size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I am trying =
to avoid the term =E2=80=98prefix=E2=80=99 because it is not directly relat=
ed to the Socket interface and I am trying to separate the definitions rela=
ted to the Socket interface from the definitions related to the interaction=
 between the MN and network.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73=
,125)">If I mention prefixes, I will have to explain that the network may a=
llocate IP addresses or IP sockets and that in cellular networks the recomm=
ended mechanism is to allocate /64 prefixes=E2=80=A6 I do not want to get i=
nto these details because they are not helpful for Socket API users.</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif;color=
:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">However, I do intend to get =
into these details (and refer to the recommendation of RFC 7934) in the dra=
fts that describe the extensions required to convey the IP service type bet=
ween the IP stack in the MN and the network. </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_2947539245290837=
126_m_6669756188475612429_m_2456947490266974938__MailEndCompose"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb=
(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"=
font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"> Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:</s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_b=
lank"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif">lorenzo=
@google.com</span></a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:calibri,sans-serif">] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 06, 201=
6 13:43<br><b>To:</b> Moses, Danny &lt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=
=3D"mailto:danny.moses@intel.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif">danny.moses@intel.com</span></a></sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-se=
rif">&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Peter McCann &lt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-=
size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</span></a=
></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sa=
ns-serif">&gt;; jouni.nospam &lt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mai=
lto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt=
;font-family:calibri,sans-serif">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</span></a></span><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif">=
&gt;; </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand=
-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:calibri,sans-serif">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobili<wbr>ty@ietf.org</sp=
an></a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:cali=
bri,sans-serif">; </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans=
-serif">dmm@ietf.org</span></a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC =
for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobili<wbr>ty-08</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"E=
N-US">On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Moses, Danny &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:da=
nny.moses@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">danny.moses@intel.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><div><div><blockquote style=3D"border-t=
op:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,=
204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt"><div><div><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:c=
alibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I think it is important to describe=
 that application developer can influence the type of service the IP sessio=
n is receiving, while being vague about the mechanism of address allocation=
. Since you are concern with the draft using the term =E2=80=98address=E2=
=80=99 and I am concern with using the term =E2=80=98prefix=E2=80=99, I tri=
ed using the term =E2=80=98network resources=E2=80=99. Yes, it is vague, bu=
t that is the intention.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US">Ok, but what other type of resource can result in the MN being =
able to use an IP address? It seems to me that only an IP address or a pref=
ix will qualify. And if allocating address on request is recommended, then =
that only leaves a prefix.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If there are other types of resou=
rce that I&#39;m missing, then &quot;resource&quot; might be OK, as long as=
 it has appropriate examples. But if the only two options are &quot;address=
&quot; and &quot;prefix&quot; and &quot;address&quot; is not recommended, t=
hen saying &quot;resource&quot; is at best unhelpful and at worst misleadin=
g.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"=
EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US">Can you explain why you are concerned with using the term=
 &quot;prefix&quot;?<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></div><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">------------------------------<wbr>----=
--------------------------<wbr>---------<br>A member of the Intel Corporati=
on group of companies<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">This =
e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for<br>the sol=
e use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution<br>by others=
 is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended<br>recipient, please c=
ontact the sender and delete all copies.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></bl=
ockquote></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div><=
/div></div>

--001a114041f4a74f590543099102--


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From: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
To: "lorenzo@google.com" <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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The problem with using link status is that the MN may want to keep the pref=
ix even after it has moved off link.  It may also break the other way: the =
MN wants to give up the prefix while it stays on link.  We need to decouple=
 the prefix assignment from the link status.

Sent from HUAWEI AnyOffice
From:Lorenzo Colitti
To:Peter McCann
Cc:Moses, Danny,draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org,dmm@ietf.org
Date:2016-12-06 06:43:31
Subject:Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08

The network can't do NUD for a prefix, but it can do NUD for the link-local=
 IPv6 address that sent the RS that caused it to announce the prefix.

Even better would be to make it the responsibility of the link layer to let=
 the network know if the MN is still attached. Most link layers used in mob=
ile networks have to do this anyway.

On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:02 AM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com<mail=
to:Peter.McCann@huawei.com>> wrote:
In the prefixcost draft, we handwaved a solution that would keep soft state=
 in the network and have the network initiate NUD when it hadn=92t seen a g=
iven address being used by the MN for a while.  However, NUD only works on =
individual addresses not whole prefixes.  It might be good to have an expli=
cit message from a MN that says =93I am done using this prefix=94 but this =
problem is bigger than DMM.  I am not sure what is the right solution.

-Pete


From: Moses, Danny [mailto:danny.moses@intel.com<mailto:danny.moses@intel.c=
om>]
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2016 1:01 PM
To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com<mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com>>;=
 Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com<mailto:lorenzo@google.com>>
Cc: draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondeman=
d-mobility@ietf.org>; dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08

That is correct.

Do we need a draft about freeing addresses/prefixes?

Regards,
Danny

From: dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter McCann
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2016 17:43
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com<mailto:lorenzo@google.com>>
Cc: draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondeman=
d-mobility@ietf.org>; dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08

That may work for communicating the allocation state of the prefix to the M=
N, but too frequent advertisements may chew up precious wireless bandwidth.=
  Also, it doesn=92t solve the problem of allowing the network to detect wh=
en the MN is done using the prefix.

-Pete


From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2016 9:21 PM
To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com<mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com>>
Cc: jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>>; d=
raft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mob=
ility@ietf.org>; dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08

Agreed; if we want to support this sort of mobility it needs to be possible=
 to tell a MN that its previous prefix is no longer valid.

>From a technical perspective this can be done using router advertisements, =
except for the 2-hour rule in RFC 4862 section 5.3.3. That rule exists to p=
revent DOS attacks on shared links, so I think it would be reasonable to up=
date RFC 4862 to say that less-than-2-hour valid lifetimes are acceptable i=
f the link provides strong guarantees that there are no other nodes on link=
 that can mount such an attack.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com<mail=
to:Peter.McCann@huawei.com>> wrote:
Agree, I am not arguing in favor of sharing a prefix between two or more MN=
s at the same time.  However, I think it is important to reclaim a prefix f=
or use by another MN after the current MN has moved to a new attachment poi=
nt and stopped using the prefix it got from the old attachment point.   It =
is also important to refrain from advertising the prefix to another MN unti=
l the current MN has stopped using it.  That is the network state I am talk=
ing about.

-Pete


From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com<mailto:lorenzo@google.com>=
]
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2016 3:32 PM

To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com<mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com>>
Cc: jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>>; d=
raft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mob=
ility@ietf.org>; dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08

On the particular case of shared links: note that they have substantial sca=
lability and performance issues. In order for shared links to work you have=
 to engage in DAD proxying, ND snooping, client isolation and all sorts of =
unsavoury and L2/L3 magic that does not scale. Some of these issues are des=
cribed in RFC 7934 section 9.3. On shared links, these forces act to reduce=
 the number of IP addresses per host that the network can support and leads=
 to the negative consequences in section 4 of the document, which is why th=
ey are not recommended.

For these and other reasons, on many public networks we're seeing a shift *=
away* from shared links - see, for example, draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-pr=
efix-per-host , and the current large deployments of that model in the form=
 of Comcast community wifi.

For many years 3GPP networks have been providing those benefits by providin=
g a full /64 to every host. I would hate to lose those benefits.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com<mail=
to:Peter.McCann@huawei.com>> wrote:
With a fixed access network the prefix can be assigned to the link and used=
 by anyone who joins the link.

With a prefix offering mobility the prefix belongs to the mobile host and n=
eeds to move with it.  There aren=92t enough prefixes (even in IPv6) to ass=
ign a permanent prefix to each UE for every topological attachment point th=
at it might visit or start a session from.

-Pete


From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com<mailto:lorenzo@google.com>=
]
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2016 3:09 PM
To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com<mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com>>
Cc: jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>>; d=
raft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mob=
ility@ietf.org>; dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08

But you have that problem with IP addresses as well, right? I don't see how=
 "assigning a prefix with certain properties" requires more state in the ne=
twork than "assigning an IP address with certain properties".

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com<mail=
to:Peter.McCann@huawei.com>> wrote:
Providing any kind of mobility service for a prefix will require some state=
 somewhere in the network.  It would be great to avoid an allocation reques=
t / response for the prefix, but the state has to be created somehow before=
 the UE can use the prefix and it has to be reclaimed eventually after the =
UE stops using the prefix (which may not be until well after it disconnects=
 from the current link and moves to another one).

Would welcome any suggestions on how to manage this state.

-Pete


From: dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org>] On Beh=
alf Of Lorenzo Colitti
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2016 12:04 PM
To: jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>>
Cc: draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondeman=
d-mobility@ietf.org>; dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08

Hi,

I like the goal of reducing network cost by allowing the use of IP addresse=
s that do not require network mobility, but we should not be doing this by =
requesting IP addresses from the network, because this violates IPv6 addres=
s assignment best practices.

Specifically, RFC 7934 recommends that a) the network should provide multip=
le addresses from each prefix and b) the network should allow the host to u=
se new addresses without requiring explicit requests to the network. This i=
s in conflict with at least this text in the draft, which says:

   In case an application
   requests one, the IP stack shall make an attempt to configure one by
   issuing a request to the network.  If the operation fails, the IP
   stack shall fail the associated socket request

One way to resolve this conflict would be to say that the network must not =
assign individual addresses, but /64 (or shorter) prefixes. So if the devic=
e desires to use fixed IPv6 addresses, then the network should give the hos=
t a fixed IPv6 prefix from which the host can form as many addresses as it =
wants.

I do not think we should advance this document until the conflicts are reso=
lved. This document is about IPv6 address assignment to mobile nodes, and w=
e should not publish a document about IPv6 address assignment that conflict=
s with best current practices on IPv6 address assignment.

Regards,
Lorenzo

On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 12:56 PM, jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mail=
to:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:
Folks,

The authors of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-07 and draft-sijeon-dmm-use=
-cases-api-source have come up with a merged document draft-ietf-dmm-ondema=
nd-mobility-08.

This email starts a 2 week WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08.
The WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.

Provide your comments, concerns and approvals to the email list (and hopefu=
lly also to IssueTracker).

- Jouni & Dapeng



Begin forwarded message:

From: IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org<mailto:ietf-secreta=
riat-reply@ietf.org>>
Subject: IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility
Date: November 28, 2016 at 12:51:34 PM PST
To: <draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondema=
nd-mobility@ietf.org>>, <dmm-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-chairs@ietf.org>>, =
<max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com<mailto:max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com>>
Resent-From: <alias-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:alias-bounces@ietf.org>>
Resent-To: jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, maxpassio=
n@gmail.com<mailto:maxpassion@gmail.com>


The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility has been changed to
"In WG Last Call" from "WG Document" by Jouni Korhonen:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility/


Comment:
WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.


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<div>The problem with using link status is that the MN may want to keep the=
 prefix even after it has moved off link.&nbsp; It may also break the other=
 way: the MN wants to give up the prefix while it stays on link.&nbsp; We n=
eed to decouple the prefix assignment from
 the link status.<br>
<br>
Sent from HUAWEI AnyOffice<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>From:</b>Lorenzo Colitti</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>To:</b>Peter McCann</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Cc:</b>Moses, Danny,draft-ietf-dmm-o=
ndemand-mobility@ietf.org,dmm@ietf.org</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Date:</b>2016-12-06 06:43:31</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Subject:</b>Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft=
-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">The network can't do NUD for a prefix, but it can do NUD f=
or the link-local IPv6 address that sent the RS that caused it to announce =
the prefix.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Even better would be to make it the responsibility of the link layer t=
o let the network know if the MN is still attached. Most link layers used i=
n mobile networks have to do this anyway.</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:02 AM, Peter McCann <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter.McCa=
nn@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"m_1137014371673386382WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">In the prefixcost draft, we handwav=
ed a solution that would keep soft state in the network and have the networ=
k initiate NUD when it hadn=92t seen a given address
 being used by the MN for a while.&nbsp; However, NUD only works on individ=
ual addresses not whole prefixes.&nbsp; It might be good to have an explici=
t message from a MN that says =93I am done using this prefix=94 but this pr=
oblem is bigger than DMM.&nbsp; I am not sure what
 is the right solution.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">-Pete<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Moses, Danny [mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:danny.moses@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">danny.moses@intel.com</=
a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 05, 2016 1:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;; Lorenzo Colitti &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lorenzo@google.com</a>&gt;=
<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">
dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">That is correct.<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">Do we need a draft about freeing ad=
dresses/prefixes?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">Danny<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_1137014371673386382__MailEndCompose"></=
a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-ser=
if; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> dmm [<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Peter McCann<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 05, 2016 17:43<br>
<b>To:</b> Lorenzo Colitti &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank">lorenzo@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">
dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">That may work for communicating the=
 allocation state of the prefix to the MN, but too frequent advertisements =
may chew up precious wireless bandwidth.&nbsp; Also,
 it doesn=92t solve the problem of allowing the network to detect when the =
MN is done using the prefix.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">-Pete<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Lorenzo Colitti [<a href=3D"=
mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto:lorenzo@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 04, 2016 9:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed; if we want to support this sort of mobility =
it needs to be possible to tell a MN that its previous prefix is no longer =
valid.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">From a technical perspective this can be done using =
router advertisements, except for the 2-hour rule in RFC 4862 section 5.3.3=
. That rule exists to prevent DOS attacks on shared links, so I think it wo=
uld be reasonable to update RFC 4862
 to say that less-than-2-hour valid lifetimes are acceptable if the link pr=
ovides strong guarantees that there are no other nodes on link that can mou=
nt such an attack.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Peter McCann &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@hua=
wei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">Agree, I am not arguing in favor of=
 sharing a prefix between two or more MNs at the same time.&nbsp; However, =
I think it is important to reclaim a prefix for use
 by another MN after the current MN has moved to a new attachment point and=
 stopped using the prefix it got from the old attachment point.&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 It is also important to refrain from advertising the prefix to another MN =
until the current MN has stopped using it.&nbsp;
 That is the network state I am talking about.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">-Pete</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lorenzo@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 3:32 PM</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>To:</b> Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On the particular case of shared links: note that th=
ey have substantial scalability and performance issues. In order for shared=
 links to work you have to engage in DAD proxying, ND snooping, client isol=
ation and all sorts of unsavoury and
 L2/L3 magic that does not scale. Some of these issues are described in RFC=
 7934 section 9.3. On shared links, these forces act to reduce the number o=
f IP addresses per host that the network can support and leads to the negat=
ive consequences in section 4 of
 the document, which is why they are not recommended.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For these and other reasons, on many public networks=
 we're seeing a shift *away* from shared links - see, for example, draft-ie=
tf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-<wbr>prefix-per-host , and the current large deploymen=
ts of that model in the form of Comcast
 community wifi.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For many years 3GPP networks have been providing tho=
se benefits by providing a full /64 to every host. I would hate to lose tho=
se benefits.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Peter McCann &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@hua=
wei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">With a fixed access network the pre=
fix can be assigned to the link and used by anyone who joins the link.</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">With a prefix offering mobility the=
 prefix belongs to the mobile host and needs to move with it.&nbsp; There a=
ren=92t enough prefixes (even in IPv6) to assign a permanent
 prefix to each UE for every topological attachment point that it might vis=
it or start a session from.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">-Pete</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lorenzo@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 3:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a></span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But you have that problem with IP addresses as well,=
 right? I don't see how &quot;assigning a prefix with certain properties&qu=
ot; requires more state in the network than &quot;assigning an IP address w=
ith certain properties&quot;.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Peter McCann &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@hua=
wei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">Providing any kind of mobility serv=
ice for a prefix will require some state somewhere in the network.&nbsp; It=
 would be great to avoid an allocation request / response
 for the prefix, but the state has to be created somehow before the UE can =
use the prefix and it has to be reclaimed eventually after the UE stops usi=
ng the prefix (which may not be until well after it disconnects from the cu=
rrent link and moves to another
 one).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">Would welcome any suggestions on ho=
w to manage this state.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">-Pete</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> dmm [mailto:<a href=3D"mailt=
o:dmm-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Lorenzo Colitti<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 12:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">
dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I like the goal of reducing network cost by allowing=
 the use of IP addresses that do not require network mobility, but we shoul=
d not be doing this by requesting IP addresses from the network, because th=
is violates IPv6 address assignment
 best practices.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Specifically, RFC 7934 recommends that a) the networ=
k should provide multiple addresses from each prefix and b) the network sho=
uld allow the host to use new addresses without requiring explicit requests=
 to the network. This is in conflict
 with at least this text in the draft, which says:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp;In case an application<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp;requests one, the IP stack shall make a=
n attempt to configure one by<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp;issuing a request to the network.&nbsp;=
 If the operation fails, the IP<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp;stack shall fail the associated socket =
request<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">One way to resolve this conflict would be to say tha=
t the network must not assign individual addresses, but /64 (or shorter) pr=
efixes. So if the device desires to use fixed IPv6 addresses, then the netw=
ork should give the host a fixed IPv6
 prefix from which the host can form as many addresses as it wants.<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I do not think we should advance this document until=
 the conflicts are resolved. This document is about IPv6 address assignment=
 to mobile nodes, and we should not publish a document about IPv6 address a=
ssignment that conflicts with best
 current practices on IPv6 address assignment.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Lorenzo<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 12:56 PM, jouni.nospam &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gma=
il.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Folks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The authors of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility=
-07 and&nbsp;draft-sijeon-dmm-use-<wbr>cases-api-source have come up with a=
 merged document&nbsp;draft-ietf-dmm-<wbr>ondemand-mobility-08.<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This email starts a 2 week WGLC for&nbsp;draft-ietf-=
dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility-08.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Provide your comments, concerns and approvals to the=
 email list (and hopefully also to IssueTracker).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Jouni &amp; Dapeng<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Begin forwarded message:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">From: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">IETF Secre=
tariat &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Subject: IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr=
>mobility</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Date: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">November 2=
8, 2016 at 12:51:34 PM PST</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">To: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dr=
aft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:dmm-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com" target=3D"_blank">max.ldp@a=
libaba-inc.com</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Resent-From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:alias-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">alias-bounces@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif">Resent-To:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a =
href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail=
.com</a>,
<a href=3D"mailto:maxpassion@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">maxpassion@gmail.=
com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-<wbr>mobility has been changed=
 to<br>
&quot;In WG Last Call&quot; from &quot;WG Document&quot; by Jouni Korhonen:=
<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobilit=
y/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-ietf-dmm-=
ondemand-<wbr>mobility/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Comment:<br>
WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
dmm mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/dmm</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<p>------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>--=
-------<br>
A member of the Intel Corporation group of companies<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for<br=
>
the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution<br>
by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended<br>
recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies.<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_etPan58478ea247027c50208elocalhost_--



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From: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
To: "danny.moses@intel.com" <danny.moses@intel.com>, "lorenzo@google.com" <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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An explicit DHCP exchange (maybe for just a prefix) seems like the cleanest=
 approach and the assignment state machine is properly decoupled from the s=
tate of the link.  However, many people seem to prefer SLAAC (almost religi=
ously) so the tracking of used addresses plus NUD after some timeout is wha=
t we settled on in prefixcost.

Sent from HUAWEI AnyOffice
From:Moses, Danny
To:Peter McCann,Lorenzo Colitti
Cc:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org,dmm@ietf.org
Date:2016-12-06 06:02:48
Subject:RE: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08

Well, although the network allocates prefixes it could keep track of addres=
ses that were constructed from those prefixes and initiate NUD on these add=
resses=85

Personally, I don=92t believe in designs that rely on MNs to volunteer to p=
rovide such information. The better approach is to have a finite lease time=
 for prefixes (like DHCP does) and force the MN to request lease extensions=
 =96 if they required.

Could that be a reasonable approach?

Danny

From: Peter McCann [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com]
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2016 21:02
To: Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com>; Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.c=
om>
Cc: draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08

In the prefixcost draft, we handwaved a solution that would keep soft state=
 in the network and have the network initiate NUD when it hadn=92t seen a g=
iven address being used by the MN for a while.  However, NUD only works on =
individual addresses not whole prefixes.  It might be good to have an expli=
cit message from a MN that says =93I am done using this prefix=94 but this =
problem is bigger than DMM.  I am not sure what is the right solution.

-Pete


From: Moses, Danny [mailto:danny.moses@intel.com]
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2016 1:01 PM
To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com<mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com>>;=
 Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com<mailto:lorenzo@google.com>>
Cc: draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondeman=
d-mobility@ietf.org>; dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08

That is correct.

Do we need a draft about freeing addresses/prefixes?

Regards,
Danny

From: dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter McCann
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2016 17:43
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com<mailto:lorenzo@google.com>>
Cc: draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondeman=
d-mobility@ietf.org>; dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08

That may work for communicating the allocation state of the prefix to the M=
N, but too frequent advertisements may chew up precious wireless bandwidth.=
  Also, it doesn=92t solve the problem of allowing the network to detect wh=
en the MN is done using the prefix.

-Pete


From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2016 9:21 PM
To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com<mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com>>
Cc: jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>>; d=
raft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mob=
ility@ietf.org>; dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08

Agreed; if we want to support this sort of mobility it needs to be possible=
 to tell a MN that its previous prefix is no longer valid.

>From a technical perspective this can be done using router advertisements, =
except for the 2-hour rule in RFC 4862 section 5.3.3. That rule exists to p=
revent DOS attacks on shared links, so I think it would be reasonable to up=
date RFC 4862 to say that less-than-2-hour valid lifetimes are acceptable i=
f the link provides strong guarantees that there are no other nodes on link=
 that can mount such an attack.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com<mail=
to:Peter.McCann@huawei.com>> wrote:
Agree, I am not arguing in favor of sharing a prefix between two or more MN=
s at the same time.  However, I think it is important to reclaim a prefix f=
or use by another MN after the current MN has moved to a new attachment poi=
nt and stopped using the prefix it got from the old attachment point.   It =
is also important to refrain from advertising the prefix to another MN unti=
l the current MN has stopped using it.  That is the network state I am talk=
ing about.

-Pete


From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com<mailto:lorenzo@google.com>=
]
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2016 3:32 PM

To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com<mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com>>
Cc: jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>>; d=
raft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mob=
ility@ietf.org>; dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08

On the particular case of shared links: note that they have substantial sca=
lability and performance issues. In order for shared links to work you have=
 to engage in DAD proxying, ND snooping, client isolation and all sorts of =
unsavoury and L2/L3 magic that does not scale. Some of these issues are des=
cribed in RFC 7934 section 9.3. On shared links, these forces act to reduce=
 the number of IP addresses per host that the network can support and leads=
 to the negative consequences in section 4 of the document, which is why th=
ey are not recommended.

For these and other reasons, on many public networks we're seeing a shift *=
away* from shared links - see, for example, draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-pr=
efix-per-host , and the current large deployments of that model in the form=
 of Comcast community wifi.

For many years 3GPP networks have been providing those benefits by providin=
g a full /64 to every host. I would hate to lose those benefits.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com<mail=
to:Peter.McCann@huawei.com>> wrote:
With a fixed access network the prefix can be assigned to the link and used=
 by anyone who joins the link.

With a prefix offering mobility the prefix belongs to the mobile host and n=
eeds to move with it.  There aren=92t enough prefixes (even in IPv6) to ass=
ign a permanent prefix to each UE for every topological attachment point th=
at it might visit or start a session from.

-Pete


From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com<mailto:lorenzo@google.com>=
]
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2016 3:09 PM
To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com<mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com>>
Cc: jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>>; d=
raft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mob=
ility@ietf.org>; dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08

But you have that problem with IP addresses as well, right? I don't see how=
 "assigning a prefix with certain properties" requires more state in the ne=
twork than "assigning an IP address with certain properties".

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com<mail=
to:Peter.McCann@huawei.com>> wrote:
Providing any kind of mobility service for a prefix will require some state=
 somewhere in the network.  It would be great to avoid an allocation reques=
t / response for the prefix, but the state has to be created somehow before=
 the UE can use the prefix and it has to be reclaimed eventually after the =
UE stops using the prefix (which may not be until well after it disconnects=
 from the current link and moves to another one).

Would welcome any suggestions on how to manage this state.

-Pete


From: dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org>] On Beh=
alf Of Lorenzo Colitti
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2016 12:04 PM
To: jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>>
Cc: draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondeman=
d-mobility@ietf.org>; dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08

Hi,

I like the goal of reducing network cost by allowing the use of IP addresse=
s that do not require network mobility, but we should not be doing this by =
requesting IP addresses from the network, because this violates IPv6 addres=
s assignment best practices.

Specifically, RFC 7934 recommends that a) the network should provide multip=
le addresses from each prefix and b) the network should allow the host to u=
se new addresses without requiring explicit requests to the network. This i=
s in conflict with at least this text in the draft, which says:

   In case an application
   requests one, the IP stack shall make an attempt to configure one by
   issuing a request to the network.  If the operation fails, the IP
   stack shall fail the associated socket request

One way to resolve this conflict would be to say that the network must not =
assign individual addresses, but /64 (or shorter) prefixes. So if the devic=
e desires to use fixed IPv6 addresses, then the network should give the hos=
t a fixed IPv6 prefix from which the host can form as many addresses as it =
wants.

I do not think we should advance this document until the conflicts are reso=
lved. This document is about IPv6 address assignment to mobile nodes, and w=
e should not publish a document about IPv6 address assignment that conflict=
s with best current practices on IPv6 address assignment.

Regards,
Lorenzo

On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 12:56 PM, jouni.nospam <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mail=
to:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:
Folks,

The authors of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-07 and draft-sijeon-dmm-use=
-cases-api-source have come up with a merged document draft-ietf-dmm-ondema=
nd-mobility-08.

This email starts a 2 week WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08.
The WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.

Provide your comments, concerns and approvals to the email list (and hopefu=
lly also to IssueTracker).

- Jouni & Dapeng



Begin forwarded message:

From: IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org<mailto:ietf-secreta=
riat-reply@ietf.org>>
Subject: IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility
Date: November 28, 2016 at 12:51:34 PM PST
To: <draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondema=
nd-mobility@ietf.org>>, <dmm-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-chairs@ietf.org>>, =
<max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com<mailto:max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com>>
Resent-From: <alias-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:alias-bounces@ietf.org>>
Resent-To: jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, maxpassio=
n@gmail.com<mailto:maxpassion@gmail.com>


The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility has been changed to
"In WG Last Call" from "WG Document" by Jouni Korhonen:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility/


Comment:
WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.


_______________________________________________
dmm mailing list
dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm





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<div>An explicit DHCP exchange (maybe for just a prefix) seems like the cle=
anest approach and the assignment state machine is properly decoupled from =
the state of the link.&nbsp; However, many people seem to prefer SLAAC (alm=
ost religiously) so the tracking of used
 addresses plus NUD after some timeout is what we settled on in prefixcost.=
&nbsp; <br>
<br>
Sent from HUAWEI AnyOffice<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>From:</b>Moses, Danny</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>To:</b>Peter McCann,Lorenzo Colitti<=
/div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Cc:</b>draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobil=
ity@ietf.org,dmm@ietf.org</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Date:</b>2016-12-06 06:02:48</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Subject:</b>RE: [DMM] WGLC for draft=
-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Well, although the network allocate=
s prefixes it could keep track of addresses that were constructed from thos=
e prefixes and initiate NUD on these addresses=85</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Personally, I don=92t believe in de=
signs that rely on MNs to volunteer to provide such information. The better=
 approach is to have a finite lease time for prefixes
 (like DHCP does) and force the MN to request lease extensions =96 if they =
required.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Could that be a reasonable approach=
?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Danny</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span></a></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Peter McCann [mailto:Peter.M=
cCann@huawei.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 05, 2016 21:02<br>
<b>To:</b> Moses, Danny &lt;danny.moses@intel.com&gt;; Lorenzo Colitti &lt;=
lorenzo@google.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08</spa=
n></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">In the prefixcost draft, we handwav=
ed a solution that would keep soft state in the network and have the networ=
k initiate NUD when it hadn=92t seen a given address
 being used by the MN for a while.&nbsp; However, NUD only works on individ=
ual addresses not whole prefixes.&nbsp; It might be good to have an explici=
t message from a MN that says =93I am done using this prefix=94 but this pr=
oblem is bigger than DMM.&nbsp; I am not sure what
 is the right solution.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">-Pete</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Moses, Danny [<a href=3D"mai=
lto:danny.moses@intel.com">mailto:danny.moses@intel.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 05, 2016 1:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com">Pete=
r.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;; Lorenzo Colitti &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@=
google.com">lorenzo@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org">dra=
ft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08</spa=
n></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">That is correct.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Do we need a draft about freeing ad=
dresses/prefixes?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Regards,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Danny</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> dmm [<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Peter McCann<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 05, 2016 17:43<br>
<b>To:</b> Lorenzo Colitti &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com">lorenz=
o@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org">dra=
ft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08</spa=
n></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">That may work for communicating the=
 allocation state of the prefix to the MN, but too frequent advertisements =
may chew up precious wireless bandwidth.&nbsp; Also,
 it doesn=92t solve the problem of allowing the network to detect when the =
MN is done using the prefix.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">-Pete</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Lorenzo Colitti [<a href=3D"=
mailto:lorenzo@google.com">mailto:lorenzo@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 04, 2016 9:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com">Pete=
r.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">jouni=
.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org">draft-ietf-dmm=
-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08</spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed; if we want to support this sort of mobility =
it needs to be possible to tell a MN that its previous prefix is no longer =
valid.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">From a technical perspective this can be done using =
router advertisements, except for the 2-hour rule in RFC 4862 section 5.3.3=
. That rule exists to prevent DOS attacks on shared links, so I think it wo=
uld be reasonable to update RFC 4862
 to say that less-than-2-hour valid lifetimes are acceptable if the link pr=
ovides strong guarantees that there are no other nodes on link that can mou=
nt such an attack.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Peter McCann &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@hua=
wei.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0cm; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Agree, I am not arguing =
in favor of sharing a prefix between two or more MNs at the same time.&nbsp=
; However, I think it is important to reclaim a prefix
 for use by another MN after the current MN has moved to a new attachment p=
oint and stopped using the prefix it got from the old attachment point.&nbs=
p;&nbsp; It is also important to refrain from advertising the prefix to ano=
ther MN until the current MN has stopped using
 it.&nbsp; That is the network state I am talking about.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">-Pete</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-=
size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Lorenzo Colitti [=
mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lorenzo@goog=
le.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 3:32 PM</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>To:</b> Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">On the particular case of shared links: n=
ote that they have substantial scalability and performance issues. In order=
 for shared links to work you have to engage in DAD proxying, ND snooping, =
client isolation and all sorts of unsavoury
 and L2/L3 magic that does not scale. Some of these issues are described in=
 RFC 7934 section 9.3. On shared links, these forces act to reduce the numb=
er of IP addresses per host that the network can support and leads to the n=
egative consequences in section
 4 of the document, which is why they are not recommended.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">For these and other reasons, on many publ=
ic networks we're seeing a shift *away* from shared links - see, for exampl=
e, draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host , and the current large dep=
loyments of that model in the form of
 Comcast community wifi.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">For many years 3GPP networks have been pr=
oviding those benefits by providing a full /64 to every host. I would hate =
to lose those benefits.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Peter Mc=
Cann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter=
.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0cm; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">With a fixed access netw=
ork the prefix can be assigned to the link and used by anyone who joins the=
 link.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">With a prefix offering m=
obility the prefix belongs to the mobile host and needs to move with it.&nb=
sp; There aren=92t enough prefixes (even in IPv6) to assign
 a permanent prefix to each UE for every topological attachment point that =
it might visit or start a session from.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">-Pete</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-=
size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Lorenzo Colitti [=
mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lorenzo@goog=
le.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 3:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a></span></=
p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">But you have that problem with IP address=
es as well, right? I don't see how &quot;assigning a prefix with certain pr=
operties&quot; requires more state in the network than &quot;assigning an I=
P address with certain properties&quot;.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Peter Mc=
Cann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Peter=
.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0cm; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Providing any kind of mo=
bility service for a prefix will require some state somewhere in the networ=
k.&nbsp; It would be great to avoid an allocation request
 / response for the prefix, but the state has to be created somehow before =
the UE can use the prefix and it has to be reclaimed eventually after the U=
E stops using the prefix (which may not be until well after it disconnects =
from the current link and moves
 to another one).</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Would welcome any sugges=
tions on how to manage this state.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">-Pete</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-=
size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> dmm [mailto:<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Lorenzo Colitti<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 02, 2016 12:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> jouni.nospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">
dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08</spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Hi,</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">I like the goal of reducing network cost =
by allowing the use of IP addresses that do not require network mobility, b=
ut we should not be doing this by requesting IP addresses from the network,=
 because this violates IPv6 address
 assignment best practices.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Specifically, RFC 7934 recommends that a)=
 the network should provide multiple addresses from each prefix and b) the =
network should allow the host to use new addresses without requiring explic=
it requests to the network. This is
 in conflict with at least this text in the draft, which says:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;In case an application</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;requests one, the IP stack s=
hall make an attempt to configure one by</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;issuing a request to the net=
work.&nbsp; If the operation fails, the IP</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;stack shall fail the associa=
ted socket request</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">One way to resolve this conflict would be=
 to say that the network must not assign individual addresses, but /64 (or =
shorter) prefixes. So if the device desires to use fixed IPv6 addresses, th=
en the network should give the host
 a fixed IPv6 prefix from which the host can form as many addresses as it w=
ants.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">I do not think we should advance this doc=
ument until the conflicts are resolved. This document is about IPv6 address=
 assignment to mobile nodes, and we should not publish a document about IPv=
6 address assignment that conflicts
 with best current practices on IPv6 address assignment.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Regards,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Lorenzo</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 12:56 PM, jouni.n=
ospam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni=
.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0cm; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Folks,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">The authors of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mo=
bility-07 and&nbsp;draft-sijeon-dmm-use-cases-api-source have come up with =
a merged document&nbsp;draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">This email starts a 2 week WGLC for&nbsp;=
draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">The WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/1=
6.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Provide your comments, concerns and appro=
vals to the email list (and hopefully also to IssueTracker).</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">- Jouni &amp; Dapeng</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&nbsp;</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Begin forwarded message:</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helve=
tica&quot;,sans-serif">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">IET=
F Secretariat &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helve=
tica&quot;,sans-serif">Subject: IETF WG state changed for draft-ietf-dmm-on=
demand-mobility</span></b></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helve=
tica&quot;,sans-serif">Date:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Nov=
ember 28, 2016 at 12:51:34 PM PST</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helve=
tica&quot;,sans-serif">To:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:dmm-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com" target=3D"_blank">max.ldp@a=
libaba-inc.com</a>&gt;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helve=
tica&quot;,sans-serif">Resent-From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:alias-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">alias-bounces@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helve=
tica&quot;,sans-serif">Resent-To:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a =
href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jouni.nospam@gmail=
.com</a>,
<a href=3D"mailto:maxpassion@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">maxpassion@gmail.=
com</a></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><br>
The IETF WG state of draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility has been changed to<b=
r>
&quot;In WG Last Call&quot; from &quot;WG Document&quot; by Jouni Korhonen:=
<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobilit=
y/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondem=
and-mobility/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Comment:<br>
WGLC starts 11/28/16 and ends 12/12/16.</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
dmm mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
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From: "Seil Jeon" <seiljeon@gmail.com>
To: "'Lorenzo Colitti'" <lorenzo@google.com>
References: <148036629464.5478.15248622721170321679.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6E8FD89A-A217-4958-8DF8-EE7D0CD77F13@gmail.com> <CAKD1Yr3nCfMFz_1wqvDmiyMK2OiKZAwYTv2GKN9axf7JuOdtxA@mail.gmail.com> <5963DDF1F751474D8DEEFDCDBEE43AE77DB5988B@SZXEML503-MBS.china.huawei.com> <CAKD1Yr3J0XQSLGHBX52pD8rGbk-UsSqfJpUkBSDOvO3k9ORSaw@mail.gmail.com> <5963DDF1F751474D8DEEFDCDBEE43AE77DB598CA@SZXEML503-MBS.china.huawei.com> <CAKD1Yr1wzpyryb+T5N7FkVSpPfnZWKG_OH3izo35i8JjR=y+Ow@mail.gmail.com> <5963DDF1F751474D8DEEFDCDBEE43AE77DB59938@SZXEML503-MBS.china.huawei.com> <F0CF5715D3D1884BAC731EA1103AC28134AA2986@HASMSX105.ger.corp.intel.com> <CAKD1Yr2UPaGKvTN4750G7Fa0dxkpzapMN+AUQc4i2PmJ9mgM2Q@mail.gmail.com> <F0CF5715D3D1884BAC731EA1103AC28134AA2B7C@HASMSX105.ger.corp.intel.com> <CAKD1Yr3XLtYOOzv+yLsH0Bv_X5wqxcO4F1B5axS_zKr5vfsJeQ@mail.gmail.com> <F0CF5715D3D1884BAC731EA1103AC28134AA3C99@HASMSX105.ger.corp.intel.com> <CAKD1Yr1-YRtMwN+BFpWL4oyb-CXMAEmiZTDpOZ42VLBMiHnBpA@mail.gmail.com> <CAKD1Yr2gjXcjsy8i_HOy4wxNtCrgP_= mqrziTocVNswMUa0SsQ@mail.gmail.com> <001e01d2503b$ea005ab0$be011010$@gmail.com> <CAKD1Yr1gM+fiLzBOhKqg+cgyqWgKjDUzgpvz5OY-4RU_u34TwQ@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAKD1Yr1gM+fiLzBOhKqg+cgyqWgKjDUzgpvz5OY-4RU_u34TwQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 15:26:01 +0900
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Cc: 'Peter McCann' <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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Hi Lorenzo,

=20

You can find my comments inline.

=20

Regards,

Seil Jeon

=20

From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 1:01 PM
To: Seil Jeon <seiljeon@gmail.com>
Cc: dmm@ietf.org; Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com>; Peter McCann =
<Peter.McCann@huawei.com>; john.kaippallimalil@huawei.com
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08

=20

Seil Jeon,

=20

I'm not sure I understand. The draft implies that =
IPV6_REQUIRE_SRC_ON_NET forces the device to talk to the network even if =
it already has a prefix from the current network. Why do this?

=20

No. it doesn=E2=80=99t force to the IP stack. It is just telling what =
additional requirement of the application to the IP stack. If the stack =
has it from the current serving network, the best-matched one will be =
used. Or, it will request a new one.

=20

Suppose the following sequence of events occurs.

1.	The device has a mobile (e.g., session-lasting) IPv6 prefix only.
2.	The device moves to a new attachment point and its only prefix (and =
only IP addresses) are now subject to suboptimal latency.
3.	An application wants to use an IPv6 address from the local network, =
in order to minimize latency.
4.	The device does not have a local prefix assigned by the local =
network, so it gets a local prefix from the network. This takes 1-2 =
seconds.
5.	100ms later, another application wants to use an IPv6 address from =
the local network.

At point 5, it is much more faster for the host to say, "I already have =
a prefix from the local network, I will just create a new address from =
that prefix" than to talk to the network.

=20

I=E2=80=99m not sure what local prefix you mean. I don=E2=80=99t know =
what default policy to assign an IPv6 prefix to the host in your =
scenario. But if you mean the local prefix as session-lasting IP prefix, =
once the IP stack gets the prefix at step 4, it will not need step 5.

=20

In step 4, the local prefix could be non-persistent IP address, not =
session-lasting IP address. And suppose one or more session-lasting IP =
addresses are already existing in the stack. Then, a new application =
requiring on-net property will need a session-lasting IP prefix from the =
current serving network.

=20

The purpose of the on-net property is to help an application get a =
prefix assigned from the current serving network.

=20

=20

=20

Is IPV6_REQUIRE_SRC_ON_NET defined because at step 2, the device does =
not know it has moved?

=20

This draft doesn=E2=80=99t talk about any mobility protocol, but just =
dealing with how application=E2=80=99s IP address requirement can be =
delivered to the IP stack. The on-net API also belongs to the same goal.

=20

=20

=20

Regards,

Lorenzo

=20

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 12:42 PM, Seil Jeon <seiljeon@gmail.com =
<mailto:seiljeon@gmail.com> > wrote:

Hi Lorenzo,

=20

Please see inline.

=20

Regards,

Seil Jeon

=20

From: dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> ] =
On Behalf Of Lorenzo Colitti
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 12:20 AM
To: Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com <mailto:danny.moses@intel.com> >
Cc: draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org> ; Peter McCann =
<Peter.McCann@huawei.com <mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com> >; =
dmm@ietf.org <mailto:dmm@ietf.org>=20
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08

=20

Danny,

=20

I don't think assigning addresses vs. assigning prefixes is a question =
only of mechanism.

=20

For example, consider the IPV6_REQUIRE_SRC_ON_NET flag. If the network =
is following IP addressing best practices, I don't see a need for it. If =
a host already has an IPv6 address of the desired type, what's the point =
of sending a request to the network to obtain one?

=20

The reason is well described in  =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sijeon-dmm-use-cases-api-source-05> =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sijeon-dmm-use-cases-api-source-05 =
like following

=20

Acquiring a new session-lasting IP address may take some

   time (due to the exchange with the network) while using an existing

   one is instantaneous.  On the other hand, using the existing one

   might yield less optimal routing.  For example, the use of the IP

   address with an existing one configured might provide a suboptimal

   routing path as a result of a handover.  This situation might not be

   preferred by newly initiated applications because the application

   incurs the costs of IP mobility even though the MN has not moved from

   the current serving network.  Eventually, the new session is served

   by a remote IP mobility anchor with mobility management functions,

   though the MN has not moved yet.

=20

Is it so that the requesting app can obtain a new IP address with the =
desired properties, unique to that particular socket? But if so, the =
host should just create a new address for that socket, with the desired =
properties. The network should not be requiring that the host ask for =
individual IP addresses; it should be allowing the host to form more IP =
addresses without requesting them.

=20

In any case: since the socket options defined in this draft are =
IPv6-only, it only needs to concern itself with IPv6, and we're really =
only left with one case: a prefix. If so, how about the following?

=20

=E2=80=9CBy issuing a request to the network=E2=80=9D you pointed out in =
the previous mails has been described as the on demand nature for a long =
time in [I-D. draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility]. If it is an issue =
INDEED, it needs to be revised not with individual address but with =
prefix. Would it be better?

=20

Second, from your text, the reason to use the proposed API is not to use =
the address based on the same prefix. =E2=80=9CCreating a new one from =
an existing prefix of the desired type=E2=80=9D is away from the =
intention.

=20

=3D=3D=3D=3D

When the IP stack is required to use a source IP address of a specific =
type, it can perform one of the following: it can use an existing =
address with the desired type (if it has one), or it can create a new =
one from an existing prefix of the desired type. If the host does not =
already have an IPv6 prefix of the specific type, it can request one =
from the network.

=20

Using an address from an existing prefix is faster but might yield a =
less optimal route (if a hand-off event occurred since its =
configuration), on the other hand, acquiring a new IP prefix from the =
network may take some time (due to signaling exchange with the network) =
and may fail due to network policies.

=3D=3D=3D=3D

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

Cheers,

Lorenzo

=20

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 9:27 PM, Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com =
<mailto:danny.moses@intel.com> > wrote:

Firstly, I agree that the only two examples of =
=E2=80=98resource=E2=80=99 type that may result with a creation of a =
source IP address are (i) an IP address and (ii) an IP prefix. I cannot =
think of any other magic, but perhaps some else can=E2=80=A6

=20

I am trying to avoid the term =E2=80=98prefix=E2=80=99 because it is not =
directly related to the Socket interface and I am trying to separate the =
definitions related to the Socket interface from the definitions related =
to the interaction between the MN and network.

=20

If I mention prefixes, I will have to explain that the network may =
allocate IP addresses or IP sockets and that in cellular networks the =
recommended mechanism is to allocate /64 prefixes=E2=80=A6 I do not want =
to get into these details because they are not helpful for Socket API =
users.

=20

However, I do intend to get into these details (and refer to the =
recommendation of RFC 7934) in the drafts that describe the extensions =
required to convey the IP service type between the IP stack in the MN =
and the network.=20

=20

From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto: <mailto:lorenzo@google.com> =
lorenzo@google.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 13:43
To: Moses, Danny < <mailto:danny.moses@intel.com> danny.moses@intel.com>
Cc: Peter McCann < <mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com> =
Peter.McCann@huawei.com>; jouni.nospam < <mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>;  =
<mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org> =
draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org;  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> =
dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08

=20

On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com =
<mailto:danny.moses@intel.com> > wrote:

I think it is important to describe that application developer can =
influence the type of service the IP session is receiving, while being =
vague about the mechanism of address allocation. Since you are concern =
with the draft using the term =E2=80=98address=E2=80=99 and I am concern =
with using the term =E2=80=98prefix=E2=80=99, I tried using the term =
=E2=80=98network resources=E2=80=99. Yes, it is vague, but that is the =
intention.

=20

Ok, but what other type of resource can result in the MN being able to =
use an IP address? It seems to me that only an IP address or a prefix =
will qualify. And if allocating address on request is recommended, then =
that only leaves a prefix.

=20

If there are other types of resource that I'm missing, then "resource" =
might be OK, as long as it has appropriate examples. But if the only two =
options are "address" and "prefix" and "address" is not recommended, =
then saying "resource" is at best unhelpful and at worst misleading.

=20

Can you explain why you are concerned with using the term "prefix"?

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=20


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style=3D'word-break:break-hangul'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'>Hi Lorenzo,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'word-break:break-hangul'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'word-break:break-hangul'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'>You can find my comments =
inline.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'word-break:break-hangul'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'word-break:break-hangul'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'word-break:break-hangul'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'>Seil Jeon<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'word-break:break-hangul'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Lorenzo =
Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December =
07, 2016 1:01 PM<br><b>To:</b> Seil Jeon =
&lt;seiljeon@gmail.com&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> dmm@ietf.org; Moses, Danny =
&lt;danny.moses@intel.com&gt;; Peter McCann =
&lt;Peter.McCann@huawei.com&gt;; =
john.kaippallimalil@huawei.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for =
draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>Seil =
Jeon,<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>I'm not sure I understand. The =
draft implies that IPV6_REQUIRE_SRC_ON_NET forces the device to talk to =
the network even if it already has a prefix from the current network. =
Why do this?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'word-break:break-hangul'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'>No. it doesn=E2=80=99t force to the =
IP stack. It is just telling what additional requirement of the =
application to the IP stack. If the stack has it from the current =
serving network, the best-matched one will be used. Or, it will request =
a new one.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>Suppose the following sequence of =
events occurs.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><ol start=3D1 =
type=3D1><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo1'><span lang=3DEN-US>The device has a mobile (e.g., =
session-lasting) IPv6 prefix only.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo1'><span lang=3DEN-US>The device moves to a new attachment =
point and its only prefix (and only IP addresses) are now subject to =
suboptimal latency.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo1'><span lang=3DEN-US>An application wants to use an IPv6 =
address from the local network, in order to minimize =
latency.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo1'><span lang=3DEN-US>The device does not have a local prefix =
assigned by the local network, so it gets a local prefix from the =
network. This takes 1-2 seconds.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo1'><span lang=3DEN-US>100ms later, another application wants =
to use an IPv6 address from the local =
network.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US>At point 5, it is much more faster for the host to say, =
&quot;I already have a prefix from the local network, I will just create =
a new address from that prefix&quot; than to talk to the =
network.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'>I=E2=80=99m not sure what local =
prefix you mean. I don=E2=80=99t know what default policy to assign an =
IPv6 prefix to the host in your scenario. But if you mean the local =
prefix as session-lasting IP prefix, once the IP stack gets the prefix =
at step 4, it will not need step 5.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'>In step 4, the local prefix could be =
non-persistent IP address, not session-lasting IP address. And suppose =
one or more session-lasting IP addresses are already existing in the =
stack. Then, a new application requiring on-net property will need a =
session-lasting IP prefix from the current serving network.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'>The purpose of the on-net property is =
to help an application get a prefix assigned from the current serving =
network.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>Is&nbsp;IPV6_REQUIRE_SRC_ON_NET =
defined because at step 2, the device does not know it has =
moved?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'>This draft doesn=E2=80=99t talk about =
any mobility protocol, but just dealing with how application=E2=80=99s =
IP address requirement can be delivered to the IP stack. The on-net API =
also belongs to the same goal.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =
=EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Lorenzo<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 12:42 PM, =
Seil Jeon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">seiljeon@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=C2=B9d1=C3=8740  =
=C2=ACe0=C2=B515";color:#1F497D'>Hi Lorenzo,</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=C2=B9d1=C3=8740  =
=C2=ACe0=C2=B515";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=C2=B9d1=C3=8740  =
=C2=ACe0=C2=B515";color:#1F497D'>Please see inline.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=C2=B9d1=C3=8740  =
=C2=ACe0=C2=B515";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=C2=B9d1=C3=8740  =
=C2=ACe0=C2=B515";color:#1F497D'>Regards,</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=C2=B9d1=C3=8740  =
=C2=ACe0=C2=B515";color:#1F497D'>Seil Jeon</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=C2=B9d1=C3=8740  =
=C2=ACe0=C2=B515";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> dmm =
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Lorenzo =
Colitti<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 07, 2016 12:20 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> Moses, Danny &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:danny.moses@intel.com" =
target=3D"_blank">danny.moses@intel.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org</a>; Peter =
McCann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">dmm@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for =
draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Danny,<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>I don't think assigning addresses vs. assigning prefixes is =
a question only of mechanism.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>For example, consider the IPV6_REQUIRE_SRC_ON_NET flag. If =
the network is following IP addressing best practices, I don't see a =
need for it. If a host already has an IPv6 address of the desired type, =
what's the point of sending a request to the network to obtain =
one?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=C2=B9d1=C3=8740  =
=C2=ACe0=C2=B515";color:#1F497D'>The reason is well described in =
</span><span lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sijeon-dmm-use-cases-api-source=
-05" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=C2=B9d1=C3=8740  =
=C2=ACe0=C2=B515"'>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sijeon-dmm-use-cases=
-api-source-05</span></a></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=C2=B9d1=C3=8740  =
=C2=ACe0=C2=B515";color:#1F497D'> like following</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=C2=B9d1=C3=8740  =
=C2=ACe0=C2=B515";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>Acquiring a new session-lasting IP address may take =
some</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>&nbsp;&nbsp; time (due to the exchange with the network) while =
using an existing</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>&nbsp;&nbsp; one is instantaneous.&nbsp; On the other hand, using =
the existing one</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>&nbsp;&nbsp; might yield less optimal routing.&nbsp; For example, =
the use of the IP</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>&nbsp;&nbsp; address with an existing one configured might provide =
a suboptimal</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>&nbsp;&nbsp; routing path as a result of a handover.&nbsp; This =
situation might not be</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>&nbsp;&nbsp; preferred by newly initiated applications because the =
application</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>&nbsp;&nbsp; incurs the costs of IP mobility even though the MN =
has not moved from</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>&nbsp;&nbsp; the current serving network.&nbsp; Eventually, the =
new session is served</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>&nbsp;&nbsp; by a remote IP mobility anchor with mobility =
management functions,</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC=EC=B2=B4;color:b=
lack'>&nbsp;&nbsp; though the MN has not moved yet.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=C2=B9d1=C3=8740  =
=C2=ACe0=C2=B515";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Is it so that the requesting app can obtain a new IP =
address with the desired properties, unique to that particular socket? =
But if so, the host should just create a new address for that socket, =
with the desired properties. The network should not be requiring that =
the host ask for individual IP addresses; it should be allowing the host =
to form more IP addresses without requesting =
them.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>In any case: since the socket options defined in this draft =
are IPv6-only, it only needs to concern itself with IPv6, and we're =
really only left with one case: a prefix. If so, how about the =
following?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=C2=B9d1=C3=8740  =
=C2=ACe0=C2=B515";color:#1F497D'>=E2=80=9CBy issuing a request to the =
network=E2=80=9D you pointed out in the previous mails has been =
described as the on demand nature for a long time in [I-D.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US> </span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=C2=B9d1=C3=8740  =
=C2=ACe0=C2=B515";color:#1F497D'>draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility]. If =
it is an issue INDEED, it needs to be revised not with individual =
address but with prefix. Would it be better?</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=C2=B9d1=C3=8740  =
=C2=ACe0=C2=B515";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=C2=B9d1=C3=8740  =
=C2=ACe0=C2=B515";color:#1F497D'>Second, from your text, the reason to =
use the proposed API is not to use the address based on the same prefix. =
=E2=80=9CCreating a new one from an existing prefix of the desired =
type=E2=80=9D is away from the intention.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>When the IP stack is required to use a source IP address of =
a specific type, it can perform one of the following: it can use an =
existing address with the desired type (if it has one), or it can create =
a new one from an existing prefix of the desired type. If the host does =
not already have an IPv6 prefix of the specific type, it can request one =
from the network.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Using an address from an existing prefix is faster but =
might yield a less optimal route (if a hand-off event occurred since its =
configuration), on the other hand, acquiring a new IP prefix from the =
network may take some time (due to signaling exchange with the network) =
and may fail due to network policies.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Lorenzo<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><div><d=
iv><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 9:27 PM, Moses, Danny &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:danny.moses@intel.com" =
target=3D"_blank">danny.moses@intel.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Firstly, I agree that the only two examples of =
=E2=80=98resource=E2=80=99 type that may result with a creation of a =
source IP address are (i) an IP address and (ii) an IP prefix. I cannot =
think of any other magic, but perhaps some else can=E2=80=A6</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>I am trying to avoid the term =E2=80=98prefix=E2=80=99 because it is =
not directly related to the Socket interface and I am trying to separate =
the definitions related to the Socket interface from the definitions =
related to the interaction between the MN and network.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>If I mention prefixes, I will have to explain that the network may =
allocate IP addresses or IP sockets and that in cellular networks the =
recommended mechanism is to allocate /64 prefixes=E2=80=A6 I do not want =
to get into these details because they are not helpful for Socket API =
users.</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>However, I do intend to get into these details (and refer to the =
recommendation of RFC 7934) in the drafts that describe the extensions =
required to convey the IP service type between the IP stack in the MN =
and the network. </span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a =
name=3D"m_2947539245290837126_m_6669756188475612"><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>&nbsp;</span></a><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Lorenzo =
Colitti [mailto:</span><span lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>lorenzo@googl=
e.com</span></a></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 06, 2016 13:43<br><b>To:</b> Moses, =
Danny &lt;</span><span lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"mailto:danny.moses@intel.com" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>danny.moses@i=
ntel.com</span></a></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>&gt;<br><b>Cc=
:</b> Peter McCann &lt;</span><span lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Peter.McCann@=
huawei.com</span></a></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>&gt;; =
jouni.nospam &lt;</span><span lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>jouni.nospam@=
gmail.com</span></a></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>&gt;; =
</span><span lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>draft-ietf-dm=
m-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org</span></a></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>; =
</span><span lang=3DEN-US><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>dmm@ietf.org<=
/span></a></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><br><b>Subjec=
t:</b> Re: [DMM] WGLC for =
draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Moses, Danny &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:danny.moses@intel.com" =
target=3D"_blank">danny.moses@intel.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>I think it is important to describe that application developer can =
influence the type of service the IP session is receiving, while being =
vague about the mechanism of address allocation. Since you are concern =
with the draft using the term =E2=80=98address=E2=80=99 and I am concern =
with using the term =E2=80=98prefix=E2=80=99, I tried using the term =
=E2=80=98network resources=E2=80=99. Yes, it is vague, but that is the =
intention.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Ok, but what other type of resource can result in the MN =
being able to use an IP address? It seems to me that only an IP address =
or a prefix will qualify. And if allocating address on request is =
recommended, then that only leaves a =
prefix.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>If there are other types of resource that I'm missing, then =
&quot;resource&quot; might be OK, as long as it has appropriate =
examples. But if the only two options are &quot;address&quot; and =
&quot;prefix&quot; and &quot;address&quot; is not recommended, then =
saying &quot;resource&quot; is at best unhelpful and at worst =
misleading.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Can you explain why you are concerned with using the term =
&quot;prefix&quot;?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div><p><span =
lang=3DEN-US>------------------------------------------------------------=
---------<br>A member of the Intel Corporation group of =
companies<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span lang=3DEN-US>This e-mail and any =
attachments may contain confidential material for<br>the sole use of the =
intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution<br>by others is =
strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended<br>recipient, please =
contact the sender and delete all =
copies.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></=
blockquote></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></body><=
/html>
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From: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 10:45:59 +0000
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Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08
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From: Dave Dolson <ddolson@sandvine.com>
To: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>
Thread-Topic: WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08 -- 
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I'm just catching up on the recent drafts, so apologies if this has been co=
vered...

1. It seems like RFC 6724 will need to be updated by dmm-ondemand-mobility.
I'm unclear on how the algorithm should be modified. Has anyone worked this=
 out?
My sense is that Rule 4 needs to be modified to consider the new flags.
Either this document should spell out the new algorithm, or we plan for RFC=
6724bis.

2. Regarding the language about IPV6_PREFER_SRC_HOME and IPV6_PREFER_SRC_CO=
A
with legacy applications, I think it would be right to continue to support =
these.
PREFER_SRC_HOME could ask the network for FIXED, but automatically fall bac=
k to another address.
I think this is useful so that the application doesn't have to handle EAI_R=
EQUIREDIPNOTSUPPORTED and try again.
(This comment goes back to point 1.)

3. I don't understand the need for IPV6_REQUIRE_NON-PERSISTENT_IP as an exp=
licit flag.
I would think it works better to provide this behavior if neither of the ot=
her flags are set.
Literally it says, "I will not accept a FIXED or SESSION_LASTING IP". Is th=
at useful?
It can be provided, but I don't think any app would use it. Maybe just for =
testing the network?

4. Consider an appendix showing source code for clients and servers with di=
fferent requirements.
E.g., I believe that the setsockopt() needs to be done after socket() but b=
efore bind(), connect(), send(), sendmsg(), sendmmsg(), sendto(),etc.
(After any packets are sent is too late.)
I think it would be useful to show this recipe.

5. Are there new errors from bind(), listen() or connect(), etc.?
E.g., socket option is FIXED, but user explicitly specified a COA address t=
o bind to?



David Dolson
Senior Software Architect, Sandvine Inc.


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#8217;m just catching up on the recent drafts, so =
apologies if this has been covered&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">1. It seems like RFC 6724 will need to be updated by=
 dmm-ondemand-mobility.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#8217;m unclear on how the algorithm should be mod=
ified. Has anyone worked this out?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My sense is that Rule 4 needs to be modified to cons=
ider the new flags.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Either this document should spell out the new algori=
thm, or we plan for RFC6724bis.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">2. Regarding the language about IPV6_PREFER_SRC_HOME=
 and IPV6_PREFER_SRC_COA<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">with legacy applications, I think it would be right =
to continue to support these.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">PREFER_SRC_HOME could ask the network for FIXED, but=
 automatically fall back to another address.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think this is useful so that the application doesn=
&#8217;t have to handle EAI_REQUIREDIPNOTSUPPORTED and try again.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(This comment goes back to point 1.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">3. I don&#8217;t understand the need for IPV6_REQUIR=
E_NON-PERSISTENT_IP as an explicit flag.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would think it works better to provide this behavi=
or if neither of the other flags are set.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Literally it says, &#8220;I will not accept a FIXED =
or SESSION_LASTING IP&#8221;. Is that useful?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It can be provided, but I don&#8217;t think any app =
would use it. Maybe just for testing the network?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">4. Consider an appendix showing source code for clie=
nts and servers with different requirements.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">E.g., I believe that the setsockopt() needs to be do=
ne after socket() but before bind(), connect(), send(), sendmsg(), sendmmsg=
(), sendto(),etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(After any packets are sent is too late.)<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think it would be useful to show this recipe.<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">5. Are there new errors from bind(), listen() or con=
nect(), etc.?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">E.g., socket option is FIXED, but user explicitly sp=
ecified a COA address to bind to?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">David Dolson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Senior Software Architect, Sandvine Inc.<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From nobody Mon Dec 12 05:22:26 2016
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Distributed Mobility Management of the IETF.

        Title           : On Demand Mobility Management
        Authors         : Alper Yegin
                          Danny Moses
                          Kisuk Kweon
                          Jinsung Lee
                          Jungshin Park
                          Seil Jeon
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-09.txt
	Pages           : 13
	Date            : 2016-12-12

Abstract:
   Applications differ with respect to whether they need IP session
   continuity and/or IP address reachability.  The network providing the
   same type of service to any mobile host and any application running
   on the host yields inefficiencies.  This document describes a
   solution for taking the application needs into account in selectively
   providing IP session continuity and IP address reachability on a per-
   socket basis.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-09

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-09


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>
To: "dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>
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Hi,

I have uploaded a new version of the draft: draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobilit=
y-09, addressing Lorenzo's comments (and fixing some typos).

I would like to ask to continue the WGLC process on the newer version.

Thanks,
Danny
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have uploaded a new version of the draft: draft-ie=
tf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-09, addressing Lorenzo&#8217;s comments (and fixin=
g some typos).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would like to ask to continue the WGLC process on =
the newer version.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Danny<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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From: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>
To: Dave Dolson <ddolson@sandvine.com>
Thread-Topic: WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08 -- 
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Oops,

Sorry but I missed this email. Sorry.

I will review the comments and if needed, will upload another version.
Hope to complete the work by tomorrow.

Regards,
Danny

From: Dave Dolson [mailto:ddolson@sandvine.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2016 21:00
To: Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com>
Cc: draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
Subject: WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08 --

I'm just catching up on the recent drafts, so apologies if this has been co=
vered...

1. It seems like RFC 6724 will need to be updated by dmm-ondemand-mobility.
I'm unclear on how the algorithm should be modified. Has anyone worked this=
 out?
My sense is that Rule 4 needs to be modified to consider the new flags.
Either this document should spell out the new algorithm, or we plan for RFC=
6724bis.

2. Regarding the language about IPV6_PREFER_SRC_HOME and IPV6_PREFER_SRC_COA
with legacy applications, I think it would be right to continue to support =
these.
PREFER_SRC_HOME could ask the network for FIXED, but automatically fall bac=
k to another address.
I think this is useful so that the application doesn't have to handle EAI_R=
EQUIREDIPNOTSUPPORTED and try again.
(This comment goes back to point 1.)

3. I don't understand the need for IPV6_REQUIRE_NON-PERSISTENT_IP as an exp=
licit flag.
I would think it works better to provide this behavior if neither of the ot=
her flags are set.
Literally it says, "I will not accept a FIXED or SESSION_LASTING IP". Is th=
at useful?
It can be provided, but I don't think any app would use it. Maybe just for =
testing the network?

4. Consider an appendix showing source code for clients and servers with di=
fferent requirements.
E.g., I believe that the setsockopt() needs to be done after socket() but b=
efore bind(), connect(), send(), sendmsg(), sendmmsg(), sendto(),etc.
(After any packets are sent is too late.)
I think it would be useful to show this recipe.

5. Are there new errors from bind(), listen() or connect(), etc.?
E.g., socket option is FIXED, but user explicitly specified a COA address t=
o bind to?



David Dolson
Senior Software Architect, Sandvine Inc.

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Oops,<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Sorry but I missed thi=
s email. Sorry.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I will review the comm=
ents and if needed, will upload another version.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hope to complete the w=
ork by tomorrow.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Danny <o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Dave Dolson [mailto:ddolson@sandvine.co=
m] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 08, 2016 21:00<br>
<b>To:</b> Moses, Danny &lt;danny.moses@intel.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08 -- <o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#8217;m just catching up on the recent drafts, so =
apologies if this has been covered&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">1. It seems like RFC 6724 will need to be updated by=
 dmm-ondemand-mobility.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#8217;m unclear on how the algorithm should be mod=
ified. Has anyone worked this out?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My sense is that Rule 4 needs to be modified to cons=
ider the new flags.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Either this document should spell out the new algori=
thm, or we plan for RFC6724bis.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">2. Regarding the language about IPV6_PREFER_SRC_HOME=
 and IPV6_PREFER_SRC_COA<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">with legacy applications, I think it would be right =
to continue to support these.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">PREFER_SRC_HOME could ask the network for FIXED, but=
 automatically fall back to another address.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think this is useful so that the application doesn=
&#8217;t have to handle EAI_REQUIREDIPNOTSUPPORTED and try again.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(This comment goes back to point 1.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">3. I don&#8217;t understand the need for IPV6_REQUIR=
E_NON-PERSISTENT_IP as an explicit flag.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would think it works better to provide this behavi=
or if neither of the other flags are set.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Literally it says, &#8220;I will not accept a FIXED =
or SESSION_LASTING IP&#8221;. Is that useful?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It can be provided, but I don&#8217;t think any app =
would use it. Maybe just for testing the network?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">4. Consider an appendix showing source code for clie=
nts and servers with different requirements.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">E.g., I believe that the setsockopt() needs to be do=
ne after socket() but before bind(), connect(), send(), sendmsg(), sendmmsg=
(), sendto(),etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(After any packets are sent is too late.)<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think it would be useful to show this recipe.<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">5. Are there new errors from bind(), listen() or con=
nect(), etc.?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">E.g., socket option is FIXED, but user explicitly sp=
ecified a COA address to bind to?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">David Dolson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Senior Software Architect, Sandvine Inc.<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p>---------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
A member of the Intel Corporation group of companies</p>

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From: Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com>
To: "dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>, Sri Gundavelli <sgundave@cisco.com>, "jouni korhonen" <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, liu dapeng <maxpassion@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: New chair for dmm
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Subject: [DMM] New chair for dmm
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Hi all,=0A=
    I would like to announce the appointment of Sri Gundavelli as a new =0A=
co-chair for the dmm working group. Sri has been an active participant in t=
he =0A=
group and will be able to provide the necessary guidance for the group to =
=0A=
achieve its milestones. Jouni has expressed a desire to transition out of t=
he =0A=
WG chair position in the near future due to changes in his day job. I would=
 =0A=
like to welcome Sri into this new position and to thank Jouni for his many =
=0A=
years of wonderful service.=0A=
=0A=
Thanks=0A=
Suresh=0A=
=0A=


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From: "Seil Jeon" <seiljeon@gmail.com>
To: "'Suresh Krishnan'" <suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com>, <dmm@ietf.org>, "'Sri Gundavelli'" <sgundave@cisco.com>, "'jouni korhonen'" <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, "'liu dapeng'" <maxpassion@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [DMM] New chair for dmm
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This is excellent news. Welcome, Sri.

Regards,
Seil Jeon

-----Original Message-----
From: dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Suresh Krishnan
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 1:45 PM
To: dmm@ietf.org; Sri Gundavelli <sgundave@cisco.com>; jouni korhonen
<jouni.nospam@gmail.com>; liu dapeng <maxpassion@gmail.com>
Subject: [DMM] New chair for dmm

Hi all,
    I would like to announce the appointment of Sri Gundavelli as a new
co-chair for the dmm working group. Sri has been an active participant in
the group and will be able to provide the necessary guidance for the group
to achieve its milestones. Jouni has expressed a desire to transition out of
the WG chair position in the near future due to changes in his day job. I
would like to welcome Sri into this new position and to thank Jouni for his
many years of wonderful service.

Thanks
Suresh


_______________________________________________
dmm mailing list
dmm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm


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From: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>
To: Dave Dolson <ddolson@sandvine.com>
Thread-Topic: WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08 -- 
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Hi,

I have fixed the two typos you indicated in the previous emails.
Please see my embedded reply.
I am waiting for you reply on my question below regarding the source code e=
xample comment before uploading rev 10.

Thanks for the useful comments,
Danny

From: Dave Dolson [mailto:ddolson@sandvine.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2016 21:00
To: Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com>
Cc: draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
Subject: WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08 --

I'm just catching up on the recent drafts, so apologies if this has been co=
vered...

1. It seems like RFC 6724 will need to be updated by dmm-ondemand-mobility.
I'm unclear on how the algorithm should be modified. Has anyone worked this=
 out?
My sense is that Rule 4 needs to be modified to consider the new flags.
Either this document should spell out the new algorithm, or we plan for RFC=
6724bis.

DM>> This is probably true. I am adding an RFC6724 fix to my ToDo list whic=
h is quite long, so I hope someone else
Takes this work. If not, let's do this together in the future.

2. Regarding the language about IPV6_PREFER_SRC_HOME and IPV6_PREFER_SRC_COA
with legacy applications, I think it would be right to continue to support =
these.
PREFER_SRC_HOME could ask the network for FIXED, but automatically fall bac=
k to another address.
I think this is useful so that the application doesn't have to handle EAI_R=
EQUIREDIPNOTSUPPORTED and try again.
(This comment goes back to point 1.)
DM>> First, for backwards compatibility, we must support these flags and th=
e draft does not suggest otherwise. I prefer not to mix the functionality o=
f the legacy flags - IPV6_PREFER_SRC_HOME and IPV6_PREFER_SRC_COA with the =
new flags defined in the OnDemand draft. The main reason is that the former=
 flags are related to a MIP environment were the MN terminates the tunnel, =
while the OnDemand flags are related to a proxy MIP environment (PMIP or GT=
P - for example) were the MN is not aware of the mobility support.

3. I don't understand the need for IPV6_REQUIRE_NON-PERSISTENT_IP as an exp=
licit flag.
I would think it works better to provide this behavior if neither of the ot=
her flags are set.
Literally it says, "I will not accept a FIXED or SESSION_LASTING IP". Is th=
at useful?
It can be provided, but I don't think any app would use it. Maybe just for =
testing the network?
DM>> Actually, this flag is one of the main motivation for this work. It en=
ables the application to explicitly request the network not to create a tun=
nel for the IP session and avoid the unnecessary overhead associated with t=
he tunnel. Opening a socket without using any of these flags means that the=
 application does not have a preference to the type of service it receives =
from the network and leave the decision of choosing the type of service to =
either the IP stack in the MN or the network. It is important to enable the=
 application to explicitly request a non-persistent service (and to receive=
 an error if this service is not supported).

4. Consider an appendix showing source code for clients and servers with di=
fferent requirements.
E.g., I believe that the setsockopt() needs to be done after socket() but b=
efore bind(), connect(), send(), sendmsg(), sendmmsg(), sendto(),etc.
(After any packets are sent is too late.)
I think it would be useful to show this recipe.
DM>> Your description is correct. I am wondering what is better, to add a s=
hort paragraph describing when setsockopt() should be used (as you describe=
d) or adding source code example. I prefer the text to be short and clear, =
and whenever we add source code examples we either end up with a long examp=
le, or limit ourselves to some obvious example that does not address all al=
ternatives. Will adding the clarification that you pointed out be sufficien=
t?

5. Are there new errors from bind(), listen() or connect(), etc.?
E.g., socket option is FIXED, but user explicitly specified a COA address t=
o bind to?
DM>> We considered this, but decided not to go there since we would have to=
 think of all the possible erroneous combination and programmer might do. W=
e therefore, decided to clearly state that such behavior would be ignored.



David Dolson
Senior Software Architect, Sandvine Inc.

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I have fixed the two t=
ypos you indicated in the previous emails.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Please see my embedded=
 reply.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I am waiting for you r=
eply on my question below regarding the source code example comment before =
uploading rev 10.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks for the useful =
comments,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Danny<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Dave Dolson [mailto:ddolson@sandvine.co=
m] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 08, 2016 21:00<br>
<b>To:</b> Moses, Danny &lt;danny.moses@intel.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08 -- <o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#8217;m just catching up on the recent drafts, so =
apologies if this has been covered&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">1. It seems like RFC 6724 will need to be updated by=
 dmm-ondemand-mobility.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#8217;m unclear on how the algorithm should be mod=
ified. Has anyone worked this out?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My sense is that Rule 4 needs to be modified to cons=
ider the new flags.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Either this document should spell out the new algori=
thm, or we plan for RFC6724bis.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">DM&gt;&gt; This is pro=
bably true. I am adding an RFC6724 fix to my ToDo list which is quite long,=
 so I hope someone else<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Takes this work. If no=
t, let&#8217;s do this together in the future.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">2. Regarding the language about IPV6_PREFER_SRC_HOME=
 and IPV6_PREFER_SRC_COA<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">with legacy applications, I think it would be right =
to continue to support these.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">PREFER_SRC_HOME could ask the network for FIXED, but=
 automatically fall back to another address.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think this is useful so that the application doesn=
&#8217;t have to handle EAI_REQUIREDIPNOTSUPPORTED and try again.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(This comment goes back to point 1.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">DM&gt;&gt; First, for =
backwards compatibility, we must support these flags and the draft does not=
 suggest otherwise. I prefer not to mix the functionality of the legacy fla=
gs - IPV6_PREFER_SRC_HOME and IPV6_PREFER_SRC_COA
 with the new flags defined in the OnDemand draft. The main reason is that =
the former flags are related to a MIP environment were the MN terminates th=
e tunnel, while the OnDemand flags are related to a proxy MIP environment (=
PMIP or GTP &#8211; for example) were
 the MN is not aware of the mobility support. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">3. I don&#8217;t understand the need for IPV6_REQUIR=
E_NON-PERSISTENT_IP as an explicit flag.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would think it works better to provide this behavi=
or if neither of the other flags are set.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Literally it says, &#8220;I will not accept a FIXED =
or SESSION_LASTING IP&#8221;. Is that useful?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It can be provided, but I don&#8217;t think any app =
would use it. Maybe just for testing the network?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">DM&gt;&gt; Actually, t=
his flag is one of the main motivation for this work. It enables the applic=
ation to explicitly request the network not to create a tunnel for the IP s=
ession and avoid the unnecessary overhead
 associated with the tunnel. Opening a socket without using any of these fl=
ags means that the application does not have a preference to the type of se=
rvice it receives from the network and leave the decision of choosing the t=
ype of service to either the IP
 stack in the MN or the network. It is important to enable the application =
to explicitly request a non-persistent service (and to receive an error if =
this service is not supported).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">4. Consider an appendix showing source code for clie=
nts and servers with different requirements.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">E.g., I believe that the setsockopt() needs to be do=
ne after socket() but before bind(), connect(), send(), sendmsg(), sendmmsg=
(), sendto(),etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(After any packets are sent is too late.)<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think it would be useful to show this recipe.<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">DM&gt;&gt; Your descri=
ption is correct. I am wondering what is better, to add a short paragraph d=
escribing when setsockopt() should be used (as you described) or adding sou=
rce code example. I prefer the text to be
 short and clear, and whenever we add source code examples we either end up=
 with a long example, or limit ourselves to some obvious example that does =
not address all alternatives. Will adding the clarification that you pointe=
d out be sufficient?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">5. Are there new errors from bind(), listen() or con=
nect(), etc.?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">E.g., socket option is FIXED, but user explicitly sp=
ecified a COA address to bind to?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">DM&gt;&gt; We consider=
ed this, but decided not to go there since we would have to think of all th=
e possible erroneous combination and programmer might do. We therefore, dec=
ided to clearly state that such behavior would
 be ignored.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">David Dolson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Senior Software Architect, Sandvine Inc.<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p>---------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
A member of the Intel Corporation group of companies</p>

<p>This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for<br>
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From: Dapeng Liu <maxpassion@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 09:30:10 +0000
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To: Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com>, "dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>,  Sri Gundavelli <sgundave@cisco.com>, jouni korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [DMM] New chair for dmm
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Welcome Sri and thanks Jouni for all the hard work!

Thanks,
Dapeng
___________
On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 12:45 PM Suresh Krishnan <
suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>     I would like to announce the appointment of Sri Gundavelli as a new
> co-chair for the dmm working group. Sri has been an active participant in
> the
> group and will be able to provide the necessary guidance for the group to
> achieve its milestones. Jouni has expressed a desire to transition out of
> the
> WG chair position in the near future due to changes in his day job. I would
> like to welcome Sri into this new position and to thank Jouni for his many
> years of wonderful service.
>
> Thanks
> Suresh
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Welcome Sri and thanks Jouni for all the hard work!<br><br=
>Thanks,<div>Dapeng</div><div>___________<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 12:45 PM Suresh Krishnan &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com">suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi all,<br class=3D"gmail=
_msg">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I would like to announce the appointment of Sri Gundavelli as=
 a new<br class=3D"gmail_msg">
co-chair for the dmm working group. Sri has been an active participant in t=
he<br class=3D"gmail_msg">
group and will be able to provide the necessary guidance for the group to<b=
r class=3D"gmail_msg">
achieve its milestones. Jouni has expressed a desire to transition out of t=
he<br class=3D"gmail_msg">
WG chair position in the near future due to changes in his day job. I would=
<br class=3D"gmail_msg">
like to welcome Sri into this new position and to thank Jouni for his many<=
br class=3D"gmail_msg">
years of wonderful service.<br class=3D"gmail_msg">
<br class=3D"gmail_msg">
Thanks<br class=3D"gmail_msg">
Suresh<br class=3D"gmail_msg">
<br class=3D"gmail_msg">
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--f403045dc5ea35629e0543af1a0f--


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From: Dave Dolson <ddolson@sandvine.com>
To: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>
Thread-Topic: WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08 -- 
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Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08 --
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Danny,
Please see inline [DD]

In general, I feel the specification of the programming API is incomplete, =
which may cause incompatibilities in different operating systems.
(I'm not concerned with the implementation specifics of communicating with =
the network, just the API.)

-Dave


From: Moses, Danny [mailto:danny.moses@intel.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 4:47 AM
To: Dave Dolson
Cc: draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
Subject: RE: WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08 --

Hi,

I have fixed the two typos you indicated in the previous emails.
Please see my embedded reply.
I am waiting for you reply on my question below regarding the source code e=
xample comment before uploading rev 10.

Thanks for the useful comments,
Danny

From: Dave Dolson [mailto:ddolson@sandvine.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2016 21:00
To: Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com>
Cc: draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org
Subject: WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08 --

I'm just catching up on the recent drafts, so apologies if this has been co=
vered...

1. It seems like RFC 6724 will need to be updated by dmm-ondemand-mobility.
I'm unclear on how the algorithm should be modified. Has anyone worked this=
 out?
My sense is that Rule 4 needs to be modified to consider the new flags.
Either this document should spell out the new algorithm, or we plan for RFC=
6724bis.

DM>> This is probably true. I am adding an RFC6724 fix to my ToDo list whic=
h is quite long, so I hope someone else
Takes this work. If not, let's do this together in the future.
[DD] Question to the list: has anyone worked out a viable algorithm for sel=
ecting source address?

2. Regarding the language about IPV6_PREFER_SRC_HOME and IPV6_PREFER_SRC_CO=
A
with legacy applications, I think it would be right to continue to support =
these.
PREFER_SRC_HOME could ask the network for FIXED, but automatically fall bac=
k to another address.
I think this is useful so that the application doesn't have to handle EAI_R=
EQUIREDIPNOTSUPPORTED and try again.
(This comment goes back to point 1.)
DM>> First, for backwards compatibility, we must support these flags and th=
e draft does not suggest otherwise. I prefer not to mix the functionality o=
f the legacy flags - IPV6_PREFER_SRC_HOME and IPV6_PREFER_SRC_COA with the =
new flags defined in the OnDemand draft. The main reason is that the former=
 flags are related to a MIP environment were the MN terminates the tunnel, =
while the OnDemand flags are related to a proxy MIP environment (PMIP or GT=
P - for example) were the MN is not aware of the mobility support.
[DD] OK, but the tone of the document, including use of the word "legacy" i=
mplies deprecation. There is even wording "Legacy applications ...  will no=
t enjoy On-Demand Mobility feature." In contrast, I think that IPV6_PREFER_=
SRC_HOME should provide a home address when available.

3. I don't understand the need for IPV6_REQUIRE_NON-PERSISTENT_IP as an exp=
licit flag.
I would think it works better to provide this behavior if neither of the ot=
her flags are set.
Literally it says, "I will not accept a FIXED or SESSION_LASTING IP". Is th=
at useful?
It can be provided, but I don't think any app would use it. Maybe just for =
testing the network?
DM>> Actually, this flag is one of the main motivation for this work. It en=
ables the application to explicitly request the network not to create a tun=
nel for the IP session and avoid the unnecessary overhead associated with t=
he tunnel. Opening a socket without using any of these flags means that the=
 application does not have a preference to the type of service it receives =
from the network and leave the decision of choosing the type of service to =
either the IP stack in the MN or the network. It is important to enable the=
 application to explicitly request a non-persistent service (and to receive=
 an error if this service is not supported).
[DD] But wearing the hat of a developer, why would my application ever requ=
est this, other than for network diagnostics? If I don't care for HOME addr=
ess, I would just let the stack choose... Or is there some benefit to the n=
on-persistent address that I'm missing?

4. Consider an appendix showing source code for clients and servers with di=
fferent requirements.
E.g., I believe that the setsockopt() needs to be done after socket() but b=
efore bind(), connect(), send(), sendmsg(), sendmmsg(), sendto(),etc.
(After any packets are sent is too late.)
I think it would be useful to show this recipe.
DM>> Your description is correct. I am wondering what is better, to add a s=
hort paragraph describing when setsockopt() should be used (as you describe=
d) or adding source code example. I prefer the text to be short and clear, =
and whenever we add source code examples we either end up with a long examp=
le, or limit ourselves to some obvious example that does not address all al=
ternatives. Will adding the clarification that you pointed out be sufficien=
t?
[DD] OK. Perhaps when the flags are mentioned with setsockopt(), find a pla=
ce for some words like, "In practice, setsockopt() would need to be called =
immediately after socket creation with socket(), before bind(), listen(), c=
onnect(), sendto(), etc. that would require an address to be chosen."

5. Are there new errors from bind(), listen() or connect(), etc.?
E.g., socket option is FIXED, but user explicitly specified a COA address t=
o bind to?
DM>> We considered this, but decided not to go there since we would have to=
 think of all the possible erroneous combination and programmer might do. W=
e therefore, decided to clearly state that such behavior would be ignored.
[DD] Wearing the hat of an implementor, I'm sad that the specification is a=
mbiguous. How about saying, "When an application explicitly provides an add=
ress (e.g., to bind()), this should override any address-selection hints, a=
nd an error SHOULD NOT be raised."


David Dolson
Senior Software Architect, Sandvine Inc.


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Danny,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Please see inline [DD]=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">In general, I feel the=
 specification of the programming API is incomplete, which may cause incomp=
atibilities in different operating systems.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">(I&#8217;m not concern=
ed with the implementation specifics of communicating with the network, jus=
t the API.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">-Dave<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Moses, D=
anny [mailto:danny.moses@intel.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 14, 2016 4:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dave Dolson<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08 -- <o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I have fixed the two t=
ypos you indicated in the previous emails.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Please see my embedded=
 reply.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I am waiting for you r=
eply on my question below regarding the source code example comment before =
uploading rev 10.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks for the useful =
comments,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Danny<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"></a><span style=3D"color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Dave Dolson [mailto:ddolson@sandvine.co=
m] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 08, 2016 21:00<br>
<b>To:</b> Moses, Danny &lt;danny.moses@intel.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility@ietf.org; dmm@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08 -- <o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#8217;m just catching up on the recent drafts, so =
apologies if this has been covered&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">1. It seems like RFC 6724 will need to be updated by=
 dmm-ondemand-mobility.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#8217;m unclear on how the algorithm should be mod=
ified. Has anyone worked this out?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My sense is that Rule 4 needs to be modified to cons=
ider the new flags.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Either this document should spell out the new algori=
thm, or we plan for RFC6724bis.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">DM&gt;&gt; This is pro=
bably true. I am adding an RFC6724 fix to my ToDo list which is quite long,=
 so I hope someone else<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Takes this work. If no=
t, let&#8217;s do this together in the future.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[DD] Question to the l=
ist: has anyone worked out a viable algorithm for selecting source address?=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">2. Regarding the language about IPV6_PREFER_SRC_HOME=
 and IPV6_PREFER_SRC_COA<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">with legacy applications, I think it would be right =
to continue to support these.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">PREFER_SRC_HOME could ask the network for FIXED, but=
 automatically fall back to another address.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think this is useful so that the application doesn=
&#8217;t have to handle EAI_REQUIREDIPNOTSUPPORTED and try again.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(This comment goes back to point 1.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">DM&gt;&gt; First, for =
backwards compatibility, we must support these flags and the draft does not=
 suggest otherwise. I prefer not to mix the functionality of the legacy fla=
gs - IPV6_PREFER_SRC_HOME and IPV6_PREFER_SRC_COA
 with the new flags defined in the OnDemand draft. The main reason is that =
the former flags are related to a MIP environment were the MN terminates th=
e tunnel, while the OnDemand flags are related to a proxy MIP environment (=
PMIP or GTP &#8211; for example) were
 the MN is not aware of the mobility support. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[DD] OK, but the tone =
of the document, including use of the word &#8220;legacy&#8221; implies dep=
recation. There is even wording &#8220;Legacy applications &#8230; &nbsp;wi=
ll not enjoy On-Demand Mobility feature.&#8221; In contrast, I think that
 IPV6_PREFER_SRC_HOME should provide a home address when available.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">3. I don&#8217;t understand the need for IPV6_REQUIR=
E_NON-PERSISTENT_IP as an explicit flag.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would think it works better to provide this behavi=
or if neither of the other flags are set.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Literally it says, &#8220;I will not accept a FIXED =
or SESSION_LASTING IP&#8221;. Is that useful?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It can be provided, but I don&#8217;t think any app =
would use it. Maybe just for testing the network?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">DM&gt;&gt; Actually, t=
his flag is one of the main motivation for this work. It enables the applic=
ation to explicitly request the network not to create a tunnel for the IP s=
ession and avoid the unnecessary overhead
 associated with the tunnel. Opening a socket without using any of these fl=
ags means that the application does not have a preference to the type of se=
rvice it receives from the network and leave the decision of choosing the t=
ype of service to either the IP
 stack in the MN or the network. It is important to enable the application =
to explicitly request a non-persistent service (and to receive an error if =
this service is not supported).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[DD] But wearing the h=
at of a developer, why would my application ever request this, other than f=
or network diagnostics? If I don&#8217;t care for HOME address, I would jus=
t let the stack choose&#8230; Or is there some benefit
 to the non-persistent address that I&#8217;m missing?<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">4. Consider an appendix showing source code for clie=
nts and servers with different requirements.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">E.g., I believe that the setsockopt() needs to be do=
ne after socket() but before bind(), connect(), send(), sendmsg(), sendmmsg=
(), sendto(),etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(After any packets are sent is too late.)<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think it would be useful to show this recipe.<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">DM&gt;&gt; Your descri=
ption is correct. I am wondering what is better, to add a short paragraph d=
escribing when setsockopt() should be used (as you described) or adding sou=
rce code example. I prefer the text to be
 short and clear, and whenever we add source code examples we either end up=
 with a long example, or limit ourselves to some obvious example that does =
not address all alternatives. Will adding the clarification that you pointe=
d out be sufficient?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[DD] OK. Perhaps when =
the flags are mentioned with setsockopt(), find a place for some words like=
, &#8220;In practice, setsockopt() would need to be called immediately afte=
r socket creation with socket(), before bind(),
 listen(), connect(), sendto(), etc. that would require an address to be ch=
osen.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">5. Are there new errors from bind(), listen() or con=
nect(), etc.?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">E.g., socket option is FIXED, but user explicitly sp=
ecified a COA address to bind to?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">DM&gt;&gt; We consider=
ed this, but decided not to go there since we would have to think of all th=
e possible erroneous combination and programmer might do. We therefore, dec=
ided to clearly state that such behavior would
 be ignored.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[DD] Wearing the hat o=
f an implementor, I&#8217;m sad that the specification is ambiguous. How ab=
out saying, &#8220;When an application explicitly provides an address (e.g.=
, to bind()), this should override any address-selection
 hints, and an error SHOULD NOT be raised.&#8221;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">David Dolson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Senior Software Architect, Sandvine Inc.<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p>---------------------------------------------------------------------<br=
>
A member of the Intel Corporation group of companies<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for<br=
>
the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution<br>
by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended<br>
recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_E8355113905631478EFF04F5AA706E9861CA29E5wtlexchp1sandvi_--


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Distributed Mobility Management of the IETF.

        Title           : Distributed Mobility Anchoring
        Authors         : H Anthony Chan
                          Xinpeng Wei
                          Jong-Hyouk Lee
                          Seil Jeon
                          Alexandre Petrescu
                          Fred L. Templin
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dmm-distributed-mobility-anchoring-03.txt
	Pages           : 51
	Date            : 2016-12-15

Abstract:
   This document defines distributed mobility anchoring in terms of the
   different configurations, operations and parameters of mobility
   functions to provide different IP mobility support for the diverse
   mobility needs in 5G Wireless and beyond.  A network or network slice
   may be configured with distributed mobility anchoring functions
   according to the needs of mobility support.  In the distributed
   mobility anchoring environment, multiple anchors are available for
   mid-session switching of an IP prefix anchor.  To start a new flow or
   to handle a flow not requiring IP session continuity as a mobile node
   moves to a new network, the flow can be started or re-started using a
   new IP prefix which is allocated from and is therefore anchored to
   the new network.  For a flow requiring IP session continuity, the
   anchoring of the prior IP prefix may be moved to the new network.
   The mobility functions and their operations and parameters are
   general for different configurations.  The mobility signaling may be
   between anchors and nodes in the network in a network-based mobility
   solution.  It may also be between the anchors and the mobile node in
   a host-based solution.  The mobile node may be a host, but may also
   be a router carrying a network requiring network mobility support.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-distributed-mobility-anchoring/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dmm-distributed-mobility-anchoring-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dmm-distributed-mobility-anchoring-03


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Welcome onboard Sri! It was already about the time.

So long, and thanks for all the fishy ideas ;)

- jouni


> On Dec 12, 2016, at 8:45 PM, Suresh Krishnan =
<suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi all,
>    I would like to announce the appointment of Sri Gundavelli as a new=20=

> co-chair for the dmm working group. Sri has been an active participant =
in the=20
> group and will be able to provide the necessary guidance for the group =
to=20
> achieve its milestones. Jouni has expressed a desire to transition out =
of the=20
> WG chair position in the near future due to changes in his day job. I =
would=20
> like to welcome Sri into this new position and to thank Jouni for his =
many=20
> years of wonderful service.
>=20
> Thanks
> Suresh
>=20


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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 10:03:33 +0900
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Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08 --
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--001a114041f45b93bf0543f87ef8
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

rOn Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 3:59 AM, Dave Dolson <ddolson@sandvine.com> wrote:

> 5. Are there new errors from bind(), listen() or connect(), etc.?
>
> E.g., socket option is FIXED, but user explicitly specified a COA address
> to bind to?
>

+1. An implementer would probably choose to return EADDRNOTAVAIL if an API
requested a type of address that is not available, but the draft makes no
mention of that.

The draft also fails to mention which of the APIs will result in a request
to the network (which can block for a long period of time) and which will
not. It will be quite unexpected to app developers if system calls such as
bind() and setsockopt(), which always return immediately, can suddenly
block for whole seconds. It would also be highly unexpected if connect() on
a UDP socket took a long time since it currently returns immediately.

I don't think it's a good idea to overload these existing system calls with
new "obtain an prefix from the network" semantics. It's better to add a new
system call for that.

--001a114041f45b93bf0543f87ef8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">rOn =
Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 3:59 AM, Dave Dolson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:ddolson@sandvine.com" target=3D"_blank">ddolson@sandvine.com</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-897649515469092164WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">5. Are there new errors from bind(), listen() or con=
nect(), etc.?<br></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">E.g., socket option is FIXED, but user explicitly sp=
ecified a COA address to bind to?</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div>+1. An implementer would probably choose to return EADDRNOTAVAIL if =
an API requested a type of address that is not available, but the draft mak=
es no mention of that.</div><div><br></div><div>The draft also fails to men=
tion which of the APIs will result in a request to the network (which can b=
lock for a long period of time) and which will not. It will be quite unexpe=
cted to app developers if system calls such as bind() and setsockopt(), whi=
ch always return immediately, can suddenly block for whole seconds. It woul=
d also be highly unexpected if connect() on a UDP socket took a long time s=
ince it currently returns immediately.</div><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t=
 think it&#39;s a good idea to overload these existing system calls with ne=
w &quot;obtain an prefix from the network&quot; semantics. It&#39;s better =
to add a new system call for that.</div></div></div></div>

--001a114041f45b93bf0543f87ef8--


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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 10:12:44 +0900
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To: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>
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Subject: Re: [DMM] New OnDemand version - 09
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On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 10:23 PM, Moses, Danny <danny.moses@intel.com>
wrote:

> I have uploaded a new version of the draft: draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobil=
ity-09,
> addressing Lorenzo=E2=80=99s comments (and fixing some typos).
>

The new text is an improvement, thanks. Can something be done about this
text as well?

   For example, a host may not always have a
   Session-lasting IP address available.  When an application requests
   one, the IP stack shall make an attempt to configure one by issuing a
   request to the network"

The simplest thing would probably be to refer to the text in section 3.4
which talks about how to form a new address by obtaining a prefix from the
network. Maybe that text could be broken out to its own "When an
appropriate IP address is not available" section?

--001a113fd7262cb72a0543f89f2c
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On M=
on, Dec 12, 2016 at 10:23 PM, Moses, Danny <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:danny.moses@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">danny.moses@intel.com</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"m_-572605435257355876gmail-m_-6309309681302384070WordSection1=
">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have uploaded a new version of the draft: draft-ie=
tf-dmm-ondemand-mobili<wbr>ty-09, addressing Lorenzo=E2=80=99s comments (an=
d fixing some typos).</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The n=
ew text is an improvement, thanks. Can something be done about this text as=
 well?</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0For example, a host may not al=
ways have a</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Session-lasting IP address available.=C2=
=A0 When an application requests</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0one, the IP stack s=
hall make an attempt to configure one by issuing a</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0r=
equest to the network&quot;</div><div><br></div><div>The simplest thing wou=
ld probably be to refer to the text in section 3.4 which talks about how to=
 form a new address by obtaining a prefix from the network. Maybe that text=
 could be broken out to its own &quot;When an appropriate IP address is not=
 available&quot; section?</div></div></div></div>

--001a113fd7262cb72a0543f89f2c--


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From: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>, Dave Dolson <ddolson@sandvine.com>
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--_000_F0CF5715D3D1884BAC731EA1103AC28134AAEB21HASMSX106gercor_--


From nobody Mon Dec 19 10:35:40 2016
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From: Jean-Michel Combes <jeanmichel.combes@orange.com>
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Subject: [DMM] Review of draft-ietf-dmm-hnprenum-03
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Reviewer: Jean-Michel Combes
Review result: Ready with Issues

Hi,

First, this is the first time I am trying this new tool for reviewers,
so, sorry if I am making process mistakes.

Please find the official text below:
<JMC>
I am an assigned INT directorate reviewer for
draft-ietf-dmm-hnprenum-03. These comments were written primarily for
the benefit of the Internet Area Directors. Document editors and
shepherd(s) should treat these comments just like they would treat
comments from any other IETF contributors and resolve them along with
any other Last Call comments that have been received. For more details
on the INT Directorate, see http://www.ietf.org/iesg/directorate.html.


Please, find my review below:

*** Section 1, p2 ***
"However, a widespread use of PI addresses may cause Border Gateway
Protocol (BGP) scaling problems."
Any Ref?

*** Section 7, p6 ***
"The protection of UPN and UPA messages in this document follows
[RFC5213] and [RFC7077].  This extension causes no further security
problem."

Sorry but, I must admit I don't agree:

[RFC5213] says:
"The Mobile IPv6 specification [RFC3775] requires the home agent to
prevent a mobile node from creating security associations or creating
binding cache entries for another mobile node's home address. In the
protocol described in this document, the mobile node is not involved
in creating security associations for protecting the signaling
messages or sending binding updates. Therefore, the local mobility
anchor MUST restrict the creation and manipulation of proxy bindings
to specifically authorized mobile access gateways and prefixes. The
local mobility anchor MUST be locally configurable to authorize such
specific combinations.  Additional mechanisms, such as a policy store
or Authentication, Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) may be
employed, but these are outside the scope of this specification."

Based on the fact that an operator could set up internal check-ups
about the allowed HNP(s) for the MN, there could be strong
restrictions (e.g., not allowed roaming between operators) about the
mechanism described inside this document.

So, IMHO, additional text is needed regarding this point.

Best regards,

JMC.

</JMC>



From nobody Tue Dec 20 06:34:37 2016
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From: Dave Dolson <ddolson@sandvine.com>
To: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08 --
Thread-Index: AQHSWZPGODNH7Fd5kU6e7/i1B6h9wKEPczAAgAAt5VA=
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 14:34:31 +0000
Message-ID: <E8355113905631478EFF04F5AA706E9861CCE569@wtl-exchp-1.sandvine.com>
References: <E8355113905631478EFF04F5AA706E9861C94D8A@wtl-exchp-1.sandvine.com> <CAKD1Yr3D2ejPY7b8thA05OJ698NmoKykShuW1BH=xgTJnb4BYA@mail.gmail.com> <F0CF5715D3D1884BAC731EA1103AC28134AAEB21@HASMSX106.ger.corp.intel.com>
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Subject: Re: [DMM] WGLC for draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility-08 --
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From: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>
To: Dave Dolson <ddolson@sandvine.com>, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] New name for topic: Supporting both PMIP and MIP
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Subject: Re: [DMM] New name for topic: Supporting both PMIP and MIP
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From: Dave Dolson <ddolson@sandvine.com>
To: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] New name for topic: Supporting both PMIP and MIP
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Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:05:58 +0000
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Subject: Re: [DMM] New name for topic: Supporting both PMIP and MIP
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--_000_E8355113905631478EFF04F5AA706E9870481FA0wtlexchp1sandvi_--


From nobody Wed Dec 21 10:22:03 2016
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From: Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: [DMM] Review of draft-ietf-dmm-lma-controlled-mag-params-02
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Reviewer: Ralph Droms
Review result: Ready with Issues

Major issues:  None

Minor issues:

The mechanism described in this document is fairly simple.  I
recommend that the specific semantics of the use of the parameter
options should be explained with greater clarity to ensure correct and
interoperable implementations.  For example, I found the description
of LMA behavior in section 5.1 to be quite convoluted and confusing. 
Putting the "if...then...else" construct in two bullets seemed obtuse.
 In the first bullet, the LMA "SHOULD include" the sub-option.  Are
there circumstances under which the LMA would not include the
sub-option and, if so, what are those circumstances?  Can the LMA
decide, perhaps for efficiency, to return the sub-option in only, say,
one of ten responses to the MAG?

Is there a specific reason for encoding the LAM Controlled MAG Session
Parameters as sub-options under the LAM-Controlled-MAG-Parameters
option?  Will additional sub-options be defined in the future?

Editorial issues.

For clarity, the document should use acronyms and names for system
components in a consistent way: use acronyms throughout and expand the
acronym on first use.  For example, LMA and "local mobility anchor"
are used interchangeably throughout the document, which this reviewer
found to be distracting.

What is the expansion for "PBU"?

The use of the "Configuration Variables" defined in section 4 is
repeated in section 5.1.  To avoid internal inconsistency, I recommend
that the use of the variable be described only once, with internal
pointers to that text from other places in the document.

In section 6, it would help the reader to include the name of the
registry to be modified in the first bullet.  



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--=====003_Dragon640818727656_=====--



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From: "Dhananjay Patki (dhpatki)" <dhpatki@cisco.com>
To: Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@gmail.com>, "int-dir@ietf.org" <int-dir@ietf.org>
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From: "Moses, Danny" <danny.moses@intel.com>
To: Dave Dolson <ddolson@sandvine.com>, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] New name for topic: Supporting both PMIP and MIP
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Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 11:25:30 +0000
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Subject: Re: [DMM] New name for topic: Supporting both PMIP and MIP
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--_000_F0CF5715D3D1884BAC731EA1103AC28134AB061AHASMSX106gercor_--


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From: h chan <h.anthony.chan@huawei.com>
To: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>, "dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dmm-distributed-mobility-anchoring-02.txt
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I have added the route update procedure for a moving network into draft-iet=
f-dmm-distributed-mobility-anchoring-03

I rephrased it in a few relevant sessions inside the main body instead of p=
utting it a separate appendix. Hope it becomes more coherent this way.

Please check.=20

H Anthony Chan

-----Original Message-----
From: dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Petrescu
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2016 7:46 AM
To: dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dmm-distributed-mobility-anchorin=
g-02.txt

Hi Anthony,

Thank you for this new version of this draft.

I am happy that NEMO has now its own section.

However, I would like to further illustrate the route update procedure for =
a moving network.  Maybe the text below can be put in a new appendix.

What do you think?

Alex

Illustration of a Route Update Procedure for Moving Networks
------------------------------------------------------------

This section decribes a potential route update procedure for a moving netwo=
rk; the scenario does not use the protocol Mobile IP, and does not involve =
any tunnel.  The procedure involves a hierarchical topology of three fixed =
routers: R1 is connected to the Internet, and two Access Routers (AR1 and A=
R2) are each wired to R1; moreover, each AR offers wireless access to other=
 mobile entities interested to connect to the nternet.

               ^ To the Internet
               |
               | wired link
              +--+
              |R1|
              +--+
              /  \
             /    \
            /      \ wired links
           /        \
        +---+      +---+
        |AR1|      |AR2|
        +---+      +---+
          |         |
          |         | wireless links
          o         o


The moving network is made of one Mobile Router (MR) and one Local Fixed No=
de (LFN):


        o wireless link
        |
        |
      +--+       +---+
      |MR|       |LFN|
      +--+       +---+
        |          |
        |          |
        ------------- wired links


The routing tables of R1, AR1, AR2, as well as the addresses on the interfa=
ces are depicted below:

                             ^@gw
                             |                  R1 Routing Table
                             |i0                1:1:1::/48 *        i1
                            +--+                1:1:2::/48 *        i2
                            |R1|                1:2::/32   1:1:1::2 i1
                            +--+                1:3::/32   1:1:2::2 i2
                i1;1:1:1::1 /  \ i2;1:1:2::1    default    @gw      i0
                           /    \
               i1;1:1:1::2/      \i1;1:1:2::2
   AR1 Routing Table     /        \             AR2 Routing Table
   1:1:1::/48 *     i1 +---+     +---+          1:1:1::/48 *        i1
   1:2:1::/48 *     i2 |AR1|     |AR2|          1:3:1::/48 *        i2
   default    1:1:1::1 +---+     +---+          default    1:1:2::1 i1
                         |         |
              i2;1:2:1::1|         |i2;1:3:1::1
                         o         o

The addresses on the moving network are depicted below.  The MR self config=
ures an IPv6 address on its interface i1 that is derived from the prefix ad=
vertised by AR1 on AR1's interface i2.  Moreover, the LFN and other fixed c=
omputers inside the moving network are using the fixed stable prefix 1:2:1:=
1::/64.  Remark, this prefix is 'aggregated'
in the prefix of AR1.

                          o
                          |
               i1;1:2:1::2|
                        +--+       +---+
                        |MR|       |LFN|
                        +--+       +---+
                          |          |
                          |          |
                          -------------
                           1:2:1:1::/64

When connecting the moving network to AR1, there is a need for LFN to becom=
e reachable; there is a need for an additional routing table entry in AR1. =
 This entry E is "1:2:1:1::/64 1:2:1::2 i2".  This entry can be installed d=
uring other protocol message exchanges performed by MR, e.g. DHCPv6-PD, or =
other.

When the moving network moves to AR2 there are several new steps that need =
to be performed:
- E must disappear from AR1 Routing Table
- a new E' must be added to AR2 Routing Table; the E' must be
   "1:2:1:1::/64 1:3:1::2 i2"
- a new E" must be added to the R1 Routing Table; the E" must be
   "1:2:1:1::/64 1:1:2::2 i2"

These steps may be triggered by the SLAAC, DHCPv6-PD, OSPF and/or BGP opera=
tions initiated by MR.


Le 24/09/2016 =E0 16:02, internet-drafts@ietf.org a =E9crit :
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.
> This draft is a work item of the Distributed Mobility Management of the I=
ETF.
>
>         Title           : Distributed Mobility Anchoring
>         Authors         : H Anthony Chan
>                           Xinpeng Wei
>                           Jong-Hyouk Lee
>                           Seil Jeon
>                           Alexandre Petrescu
>                           Fred L. Templin
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-dmm-distributed-mobility-anchoring-02.txt
> 	Pages           : 45
> 	Date            : 2016-09-23
>
> Abstract:
>    This document defines distributed mobility anchoring to meet diverse
>    mobility needs in 5G Wireless and beyond.  Multiple anchors and nodes
>    with mobility functions work together to provide IP mobility support.
>    A network or network slice may be configured with distributed
>    mobility anchoring depending on the needs of mobility support.  In
>    the distributed mobility anchoring environment, multiple anchors are
>    available for mid-session switching of an IP prefix anchor.  Without
>    an ongoing session, i.e., no IP session continuity required, a flow
>    of a mobile node can be re-started using a new IP prefix which is
>    allocated from a new network of the mobile node and is therefore
>    anchored to the new network.  With an ongoing session, the anchoring
>    of the prior IP prefix may be relocated to the new network to enable
>    IP session continuity.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-distributed-mobility-a
> nchoring/
>
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dmm-distributed-mobility-anchor
> ing-02
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-dmm-distributed-mobility-
> anchoring-02
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of=20
> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.iet=
f.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> dmm mailing list
> dmm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm
>

_______________________________________________
dmm mailing list
dmm@ietf.org
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--=====003_Dragon668162301745_=====--



From nobody Mon Dec 26 16:39:48 2016
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To: dmm@ietf.org
From: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: [DMM] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dmm-fpc-cpdp-05.txt
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Hello folks,

I am in the process of reviewing the FPC document.  It is an important 
document and will be foundational for subsequent work in [dmm].  I would 
like to suggest a change in terminology.  I think the way "Port" is 
currently defined in the document is very confusing, because it is not 
very intuitively related to the traditional uses of "port" as in TCP, or 
in switches.

As I understand it, "Policy" lives on the control plane side of the 
interface, and "Port" is intended to denote a concept that is important 
on the data plane side of the interface.  "Flow" is another word that is 
closely tied to the data plane, and it seems to me that as currently 
defined in the document a "Port" is a collection of flows that 
correspond to a specific Policy or Policy Group.

So, I would like to propose that the word "Port" should be replaced by 
the term "Flow Group".  Another alternative would be "Flow Policy 
Group", which could then be abbreviated FPG. However, the latter has the 
perhaps undesirable effect of tying the word "Policy" to a data-plane 
concept.

Thanks for any comments on this proposal to modify the terminology.

I think it is important to make the terminology as unambiguous and 
intuitive as we possibly can, especially because the document is 
necessarily written at a high level of abstraction.

Regards,
Charlie P.


On 10/31/2016 9:54 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Distributed Mobility Management of the IETF.
>
>          Title           : Protocol for Forwarding Policy Configuration (FPC) in DMM
>          Authors         : Satoru Matsushima
>                            Lyle Bertz
>                            Marco Liebsch
>                            Sri Gundavelli
>                            Danny Moses
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-dmm-fpc-cpdp-05.txt
> 	Pages           : 153
> 	Date            : 2016-10-31
>
> Abstract:
>     This document describes the solution of data-plane separation from
>     control-plane which enables a flexible mobility management system
>     using agent and client functions.  To configure data-plane nodes and
>     functions, the data-plane is abstracted by an agent interface to the
>     client.  The data-plane abstraction model is extensible in order to
>     support many different type of mobility management systems and data-
>     plane functions.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-fpc-cpdp/
>
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dmm-fpc-cpdp-05
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dmm-fpc-cpdp-05
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> dmm mailing list
> dmm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm
>


From nobody Wed Dec 28 18:30:51 2016
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From: Satoru Matsushima <satoru.matsushima@gmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2016 11:30:44 +0900
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To: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
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Subject: [DMM] Change "Port" to ? [ was Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-dmm-fpc-cpdp-05.txt]
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Hi Charlie,

First, thank you for raising this point to be discussed. I second that =
it needs to be more intuitive.


>=20
> I am in the process of reviewing the FPC document.  It is an important =
document and will be foundational for subsequent work in [dmm].

Yep, I really appreciate that you see this draft as a foundation for =
further works.


>  I would like to suggest a change in terminology.  I think the way =
"Port" is currently defined in the document is very confusing, because =
it is not very intuitively related to the traditional uses of "port" as =
in TCP, or in switches.

Right. The coauthors had discussed this point many times but, me at =
least, couldn=E2=80=99t figure out more appropriate term instead of that =
so far...


>=20
> As I understand it, "Policy" lives on the control plane side of the =
interface, and "Port" is intended to denote a concept that is important =
on the data plane side of the interface.

If you mean =E2=80=9Ccontrol plane=E2=80=9D as abstracted data-plane =
model in FPC agent,  I think that both =E2=80=9CPolicy=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9CPort=E2=80=9D exist on the control plane. In the current =
version of draft, Port is defined as =E2=80=9CA set of forwarding =
policies.=E2=80=9D


>  "Flow" is another word that is closely tied to the data plane, and it =
seems to me that as currently defined in the document a "Port" is a =
collection of flows that correspond to a specific Policy or Policy =
Group.

For me, =E2=80=9CFlow=E2=80=9D seems not to exactly indicate specific =
policy applied flow. It could indicate flow(s) which just have same =
characteristics in natural.=20


>=20
> So, I would like to propose that the word "Port" should be replaced by =
the term "Flow Group".  Another alternative would be "Flow Policy =
Group", which could then be abbreviated FPG. However, the latter has the =
perhaps undesirable effect of tying the word "Policy" to a data-plane =
concept.

I think that the successor of port should keep same meaning of =E2=80=9CA =
set of forwarding policies.=E2=80=9D In that sense, FPG sounds make =
sense to me.=20

in another aspect, we use Context as abstracted mobility session. I can =
see this as source of flow(s) and it looks already represent a group of =
those flows which are received and sent on each node. Attaching Context =
to a Port intends that applying a set of policies to a group of flows =
which are attributed to the context.


>=20
> Thanks for any comments on this proposal to modify the terminology.
>=20
> I think it is important to make the terminology as unambiguous and =
intuitive as we possibly can, especially because the document is =
necessarily written at a high level of abstraction.
>=20

Yes, I fully agree with you, let=E2=80=99s keep the discussion.


> Regards,
> Charlie P.

Best regards,
--satoru


