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X-Proofpoint-GUID: k9dw0hDueEttCcmf-uhTn7nq9nGc9k3A X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-06-01_08:2021-06-01, 2021-06-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 priorityscore=1501 impostorscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 clxscore=1015 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104190000 definitions=main-2106010103 Archived-At: Subject: [DMM] Additional questions/comments on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane-13 X-BeenThere: dmm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Distributed Mobility Management Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2021 15:39:30 -0000 Hi Pablo, 5.2.2. Packet flow - Downlink The downlink packet flow is as follows: UPF2_in : (Z,A) ->UPF2 maps the flow w/ SID list UPF2_out: (U2::1, C1)(gNB, S1; SL=3D2)(Z,A) ->H.Encaps.Red C1_out : (U2::1, S1)(gNB, S1; SL=3D1)(Z,A) S1_out : (U2::1, gNB)(Z,A) ->End with PSP gNB_out : (Z,A) ->End.DX4/End.DX6/End.DX2 ... Once the packet arrives at the gNB, the IPv6 DA corresponds to an End.DX4, End.DX6 or End.DX2 behavior at the gNB (depending on the underlying traffic). Because of the END.DX2/4/6 behavior on gNB, the SID list and S1_out can't j= ust simply use gNB. It must be gNB:TEID. In 5.3, for uplink traffic, the GW has End.M.GTP6.D for the UPF address B a= nd the gNB does not need to know the existence of GW. For downlink traffic,= the UPF knows there is a GW and put the GW::TEID in the SRH. Why not make = GW invisible to UPF as well and just use gNB::TEID, and then have gNB/96 as= End.M.GTP6.E on the SRGW? You can still put GW in the SRH to steer traffic= through the GW. 5.3.1.1. Packet flow - Uplink The uplink packet flow is as follows: UE_out : (A,Z) gNB_out : (gNB, B)(GTP: TEID T)(A,Z) -> Interface N3 unmodified (IPv6/GTP) SRGW_out: (SRGW, S1)(U2::1, C1; SL=3D2)(A,Z) -> B is an End.M.GTP6.D SID at the SRGW S1_out : (SRGW, C1)(U2::1, C1; SL=3D1)(A,Z) C1_out : (SRGW, U2::1)(A,Z) -> End with PSP UPF2_out: (A,Z) -> End.DT4 or End.DT6 Shouldn't U2::1 be U2::TEID? Even for the enhanced mode, TEID is still sign= aled and used - just that multiple UEs will share the same TEID. BTW, since you removed UPF1 in Figure 5, it's better to rename UPF2 to UPF1= , and change U2 to U1. For 5.3.1.3, why is downlink considered stateless while uplink has some sta= te? Aren't the same - just one converts GTP-U to SRv6 while the other does = the opposite? 5.3.2.1 has the following: When the packet arrives at the SRGW for UPF1, the SRGW has an Uplink Classifier rule for incoming traffic from the gNB, that steers the traffic into an SR policy by using the function H.M.GTP4.D. The SRGW is not a 5G NF, so the "Uplink Classifier rule" does not have to b= e the following (draft-homma-dmm-5gs-id-loc-coexistence): Uplink Classifier (ULCL): An ULCL is an UPF functionality that aims at diverting Uplink traffi= c, based on filter rules provided by SMF, towards Data Network (DN). So, instead of ULCL, the SRGW could have an IPv4 route for the UPF address = which steers the matching traffic to an SR policy with function H.M.GTP4.D.= If that is done, then the following is not true: For the uplink traffic, the state at the SRGW is dedicated on a per UE/session basis according to an Uplink Classifier. There is state for steering the different sessions in the form of an SR Policy. However, SR policies are shared among several UE/sessions. Because we don't need per UE/session steering - we can just steer based on = UPF's address (just like in IPv6 case). It seems that the only reason ULCL = is used here is just that we don't call an IPv4 address a SID - but that do= es not mean we can't use an IPv4 route to steer traffic into a policy (isn'= t it the same thing that we use an IPv6 route for an address that we call S= ID)? 5.3.3. Extensions to the interworking mechanisms In this section we presented two mechanisms for interworking with gNBs and UPFs that do not support SRv6. These mechanisms are used to support GTP over IPv4 and IPv6. Only gNB, not UPF, right? Furthermore, although these mechanisms are designed for interworking with legacy RAN at the N3 interface, these methods could also be applied for interworking with a non-SRv6 capable UPF at the N9 interface. Are you referring to the following? gNB (GTP-U) -- SRGW1 ----- UPF1 ------- SRGW2 ----- (GTP-U) UPF2 What's the difference between SRGW1 and SRGw2? If there is, then the above = paragraph is incorrect. If there is no difference, why do we need drop-in mode (which has differenc= e between SRGW-A and SRGW-B)? 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR11MB5082.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d7147ff5-f746-45b2-d8a6-08d927790429 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Jun 2021 16:51:36.3147 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: oPqPVshiFAnKXkhfUbPYViPPokmkLhS2/rLOdm/GqD9R5SQaKJGcwiEzgVra9Rp7WAtnfcKbuirQeRikrp2rGw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR11MB2847 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.20, xbe-aln-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-5.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [DMM] Additional questions/comments on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane-13 X-BeenThere: dmm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Distributed Mobility Management Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2021 16:51:52 -0000 Hi Jeffrey, Thanks for your email. Inline with [PC]. Cheers, Pablo. -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang =20 Sent: martes, 1 de junio de 2021 17:39 To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) ; dmm@ietf.org Subject: Additional questions/comments on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane= -13 Hi Pablo, 5.2.2. Packet flow - Downlink The downlink packet flow is as follows: UPF2_in : (Z,A) ->UPF2 maps the flow w/ SID list UPF2_out: (U2::1, C1)(gNB, S1; SL=3D2)(Z,A) ->H.Encaps.Red C1_out : (U2::1, S1)(gNB, S1; SL=3D1)(Z,A) S1_out : (U2::1, gNB)(Z,A) ->End with PSP gNB_out : (Z,A) ->End.DX4/End.DX6/End.DX2 ... Once the packet arrives at the gNB, the IPv6 DA corresponds to an End.DX4, End.DX6 or End.DX2 behavior at the gNB (depending on the underlying traffic). Because of the END.DX2/4/6 behavior on gNB, the SID list and S1_out can't j= ust simply use gNB. It must be gNB:TEID. [PC] Do you think replacing all address with ones carved out of 2001:db8:: = would help? Because based on this comment and the one below, I can see ther= e might be a point of confusion here. In 5.3, for uplink traffic, the GW has End.M.GTP6.D for the UPF address B a= nd the gNB does not need to know the existence of GW. For downlink traffic,= the UPF knows there is a GW and put the GW::TEID in the SRH. Why not make = GW invisible to UPF as well and just use gNB::TEID, and then have gNB/96 as= End.M.GTP6.E on the SRGW? You can still put GW in the SRH to steer traffic= through the GW. [PC] That is a valid point. I'll think about it and get back to you. 5.3.1.1. Packet flow - Uplink The uplink packet flow is as follows: UE_out : (A,Z) gNB_out : (gNB, B)(GTP: TEID T)(A,Z) -> Interface N3 unmodified (IPv6/GTP) SRGW_out: (SRGW, S1)(U2::1, C1; SL=3D2)(A,Z) -> B is an End.M.GTP6.D SID at the SRGW S1_out : (SRGW, C1)(U2::1, C1; SL=3D1)(A,Z) C1_out : (SRGW, U2::1)(A,Z) -> End with PSP UPF2_out: (A,Z) -> End.DT4 or End.DT6 Shouldn't U2::1 be U2::TEID? Even for the enhanced mode, TEID is still sign= aled and used - just that multiple UEs will share the same TEID. [PC] I don't see the difference in between U2::1 and U2::TEID. It is a SID = configured for a set of multiple UEs. Meaning, this is an illustration. So = not sure I follow your point. Same as previous question. I think 2001:db8::= might be helpful in here... BTW, since you removed UPF1 in Figure 5, it's better to rename UPF2 to UPF1= , and change U2 to U1. [PC] I'm fine either way. Changed. For 5.3.1.3, why is downlink considered stateless while uplink has some sta= te? Aren't the same - just one converts GTP-U to SRv6 while the other does = the opposite? [PC] On the downlink, the SLA is provided by the source node UPF that has t= he state. Hence the SRGW is quite straightforward. [PC] On the uplink, the SLA is provided by the SRGW, which needs to hold al= l the state. 5.3.2.1 has the following: When the packet arrives at the SRGW for UPF1, the SRGW has an Uplink Classifier rule for incoming traffic from the gNB, that steers the traffic into an SR policy by using the function H.M.GTP4.D. The SRGW is not a 5G NF, so the "Uplink Classifier rule" does not have to b= e the following (draft-homma-dmm-5gs-id-loc-coexistence): Uplink Classifier (ULCL): An ULCL is an UPF functionality that aims at diverting Uplink traffi= c, based on filter rules provided by SMF, towards Data Network (DN). So, instead of ULCL, the SRGW could have an IPv4 route for the UPF address = which steers the matching traffic to an SR policy with function H.M.GTP4.D.= If that is done, then the following is not true: For the uplink traffic, the state at the SRGW is dedicated on a per UE/session basis according to an Uplink Classifier. There is state for steering the different sessions in the form of an SR Policy. However, SR policies are shared among several UE/sessions. Because we don't need per UE/session steering - we can just steer based on = UPF's address (just like in IPv6 case).=20 [PC] If you steer based on UPF address, then you cannot apply a different S= LA to traffic from different UEs. Hence the need to have per UE/session ste= ering. [PC] Also, as a correction, the IPv6 case does NOT steer based on the UPF a= ddress. It leverages a BSID to perform remote steering. It seems that the only reason ULCL is used here is just that we don't call = an IPv4 address a SID - but that does not mean we can't use an IPv4 route t= o steer traffic into a policy (isn't it the same thing that we use an IPv6 = route for an address that we call SID)? 5.3.3. Extensions to the interworking mechanisms In this section we presented two mechanisms for interworking with gNBs and UPFs that do not support SRv6. These mechanisms are used to support GTP over IPv4 and IPv6. Only gNB, not UPF, right? [PC] Not sure I follow your point. Interworking in between a GTP-U gNB, and= an SRv6 UPF mainly, but it could also be used with a legacy UPF. Furthermore, although these mechanisms are designed for interworking with legacy RAN at the N3 interface, these methods could also be applied for interworking with a non-SRv6 capable UPF at the N9 interface. Are you referring to the following? [PC] Yes gNB (GTP-U) -- SRGW1 ----- UPF1 ------- SRGW2 ----- (GTP-U) UPF2 What's the difference between SRGW1 and SRGw2? If there is, then the above = paragraph is incorrect. If there is no difference, why do we need drop-in mode (which has differenc= e between SRGW-A and SRGW-B)? [PC] SRGW1 and SRGW2 performs the opposite operation. The drop-in mode has = on both ends GTP-U, and in the middle SRv6; which is slightly different. Bu= t from a dataplane perspective the SRGW of both modes are pretty much the s= ame. 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Fri, 4 Jun 2021 16:52:11 +0000 From: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" CC: "dmm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [DMM] [spring] note: WGLC on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane-11 Thread-Index: AQHXNmm1h/oYbj8HDEW9z9c60/eBi6rTFoTwgAI32YCAANgH4IASIWqAgACoBPCAAkEFAIAANn4AgAKxfQCAB86mgIAH+gjQgAGPnQCAAAVicA== Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2021 16:52:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: <02c05f77-759b-43f9-b6ba-fba785045322@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ActionId=b968c669-18a3-4cd9-8688-3b08ae7b1c66; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ContentBits=0; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Method=Standard; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Name=0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2021-05-19T18:58:05Z; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR11MB5082.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c156d4d5-c9e7-493e-1798-08d92779192c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Jun 2021 16:52:11.5715 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: SUnlJa8RZrZDSc/t5uKtV565XJTl//iqMDuvaXQ+JPvrOF885ZEg543wRZjCZ3TkVfCEo6fqyq3bxBiUdRp0eA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR11MB2542 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.16, xbe-aln-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [DMM] [spring] note: WGLC on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane-11 X-BeenThere: dmm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Distributed Mobility Management Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2021 16:52:42 -0000 Hi Jeffrey, Why do you say there is no IP adjacency from gNB to UE?=20 In the downlink, the gNB receives an IP packet from the UPF destined to its= elf. The gNB decapsulates such packet, and forwards the inner-exposed packe= t to the UE. Assuming the inner-exposed packet is IPv4, in such case the IP= v4 Destination Address is the one of the UE.=20 RFC1812: "Adjacent - reachable without going through any IP routers" As far as I know, there is no IP router in between the gNB and the UE. Can = you please clarify? Cheers, Pablo. -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang =20 Sent: martes, 1 de junio de 2021 16:04 To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) ; dmm@ietf.org Subject: RE: [DMM] [spring] note: WGLC on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane= -11 Hi Pablo, Let me pull this up: ----------- Zzh4> gNB is certainly an IP device but its IP adjacency is in the "underla= y" (transport network) not at the "overlay" (towards the UE). [PC5] The End.DX4 behavior (or the others) are not limited or restricted by= "underlay" vs "overlay" IP adjacencies. The behavior is the same: remove t= he encaps, forward on a particular IP adjacency (regardless of its type). Zzh4> In the wireline/IETF VPN case, there is PE-CE IP adjacency. Traffic f= rom CE is forwarded based on IP lookup in the VRF, whether the traffic to t= he CE requires IP lookup or not (i.e. whether per-CE or per-VPN label is us= ed, or whether END.DT4/6/X is used). Zzh4> In case of gNB, UE-gNB is not IP adjacency and traffic to/from a UE d= oes not have IP lookup (based on the inner IP header) at the gNB. --------- As I pointed out in zzh4>, the point is that there is *no IP adjacency* bet= ween UE and gNB. Practically, a device can implement the END.DX4/6 behavior to forward IP tr= affic over non-IP adjacencies. It's just that RFC8986 specifically calls ou= t IP adjacencies. You may want to point it out and see if SR folks have any= concerns. 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MN2PR05MB6861 X-Proofpoint-GUID: StIIjbEY_TtbYi1ZKDa5_-pNJ-zdYHyC X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: StIIjbEY_TtbYi1ZKDa5_-pNJ-zdYHyC X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-06-04_12:2021-06-04, 2021-06-04 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 clxscore=1015 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 priorityscore=1501 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104190000 definitions=main-2106040141 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [DMM] [spring] note: WGLC on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane-11 X-BeenThere: dmm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Distributed Mobility Management Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2021 20:06:36 -0000 Hi Pablo, The IP adjacency to the UE is from the UPF, not from the gNB. While gNB is an IP router, it is at the underlay. This is similar to the fo= llowing situation: Host1 ---- EVPN PE1 --------- EVPN PE2 ---- Host2 Host1 and Host2 have IP adjacency, even though EVPN PE1 and PE2 are IP rout= ers. Host1 and EVPN PE1 are not IP adjacent. Jeffrey -----Original Message----- From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) Sent: Friday, June 4, 2021 12:52 PM To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang Cc: dmm@ietf.org Subject: RE: [DMM] [spring] note: WGLC on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane= -11 [External Email. Be cautious of content] Hi Jeffrey, Why do you say there is no IP adjacency from gNB to UE? In the downlink, the gNB receives an IP packet from the UPF destined to its= elf. The gNB decapsulates such packet, and forwards the inner-exposed packe= t to the UE. Assuming the inner-exposed packet is IPv4, in such case the IP= v4 Destination Address is the one of the UE. RFC1812: "Adjacent - reachable without going through any IP routers" As far as I know, there is no IP router in between the gNB and the UE. Can = you please clarify? Cheers, Pablo. -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang Sent: martes, 1 de junio de 2021 16:04 To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) ; dmm@ietf.org Subject: RE: [DMM] [spring] note: WGLC on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane= -11 Hi Pablo, Let me pull this up: ----------- Zzh4> gNB is certainly an IP device but its IP adjacency is in the "underla= y" (transport network) not at the "overlay" (towards the UE). [PC5] The End.DX4 behavior (or the others) are not limited or restricted by= "underlay" vs "overlay" IP adjacencies. The behavior is the same: remove t= he encaps, forward on a particular IP adjacency (regardless of its type). Zzh4> In the wireline/IETF VPN case, there is PE-CE IP adjacency. Traffic f= rom CE is forwarded based on IP lookup in the VRF, whether the traffic to t= he CE requires IP lookup or not (i.e. whether per-CE or per-VPN label is us= ed, or whether END.DT4/6/X is used). Zzh4> In case of gNB, UE-gNB is not IP adjacency and traffic to/from a UE d= oes not have IP lookup (based on the inner IP header) at the gNB. --------- As I pointed out in zzh4>, the point is that there is *no IP adjacency* bet= ween UE and gNB. Practically, a device can implement the END.DX4/6 behavior to forward IP tr= affic over non-IP adjacencies. It's just that RFC8986 specifically calls ou= t IP adjacencies. You may want to point it out and see if SR folks have any= concerns. 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cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.19, xbe-rcd-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-10.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [DMM] [spring] note: WGLC on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane-11 X-BeenThere: dmm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Distributed Mobility Management Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 14:16:37 -0000 Jeffrey, -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang =20 Sent: viernes, 4 de junio de 2021 22:06 To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) Cc: dmm@ietf.org Subject: RE: [DMM] [spring] note: WGLC on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane= -11 Hi Pablo, The IP adjacency to the UE is from the UPF, not from the gNB. While gNB is an IP router, it is at the underlay. This is similar to the fo= llowing situation: Host1 ---- EVPN PE1 --------- EVPN PE2 ---- Host2 Host1 and Host2 have IP adjacency, even though EVPN PE1 and PE2 are IP rout= ers. Host1 and EVPN PE1 are not IP adjacent. [PC] Your examples assume PDU Session Type is L2. In which case indeed ther= e is no IP Adjacency (there is only a L2 adjacency). [PC] If the PDU Session Type is either IPv4 or IPv6, then I believe the int= erface at the gNB facing towards the UE is IP enabled, and therefore there = exists an IP adjacency. Similarly, in your example above there would be an = IP adjacency in between Host1 and PE; as both interfaces (Host1 towards PE1= , and PE1 from Host1) are IP based. [PC] Also, for IPv4 or IPv6, Host1 and Host2 are not adjacent as per RFC181= 2, since the PE processes/forward the IP packet. [PC] Please let me know whether you agree. It would be great if you can sen= d me some pointer that I could read if you still think Im wrong. [PC] Many thanks. Jeffrey -----Original Message----- From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) Sent: Friday, June 4, 2021 12:52 PM To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang Cc: dmm@ietf.org Subject: RE: [DMM] [spring] note: WGLC on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane= -11 [External Email. Be cautious of content] Hi Jeffrey, Why do you say there is no IP adjacency from gNB to UE? In the downlink, the gNB receives an IP packet from the UPF destined to its= elf. The gNB decapsulates such packet, and forwards the inner-exposed packe= t to the UE. Assuming the inner-exposed packet is IPv4, in such case the IP= v4 Destination Address is the one of the UE. RFC1812: "Adjacent - reachable without going through any IP routers" As far as I know, there is no IP router in between the gNB and the UE. Can = you please clarify? Cheers, Pablo. -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang Sent: martes, 1 de junio de 2021 16:04 To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) ; dmm@ietf.org Subject: RE: [DMM] [spring] note: WGLC on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane= -11 Hi Pablo, Let me pull this up: ----------- Zzh4> gNB is certainly an IP device but its IP adjacency is in the "underla= y" (transport network) not at the "overlay" (towards the UE). [PC5] The End.DX4 behavior (or the others) are not limited or restricted by= "underlay" vs "overlay" IP adjacencies. The behavior is the same: remove t= he encaps, forward on a particular IP adjacency (regardless of its type). Zzh4> In the wireline/IETF VPN case, there is PE-CE IP adjacency. Traffic f= rom CE is forwarded based on IP lookup in the VRF, whether the traffic to t= he CE requires IP lookup or not (i.e. whether per-CE or per-VPN label is us= ed, or whether END.DT4/6/X is used). Zzh4> In case of gNB, UE-gNB is not IP adjacency and traffic to/from a UE d= oes not have IP lookup (based on the inner IP header) at the gNB. --------- As I pointed out in zzh4>, the point is that there is *no IP adjacency* bet= ween UE and gNB. Practically, a device can implement the END.DX4/6 behavior to forward IP tr= affic over non-IP adjacencies. It's just that RFC8986 specifically calls ou= t IP adjacencies. You may want to point it out and see if SR folks have any= concerns. 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IEJ1c2luZXNzIFVzZSBPbmx5DQoNCkp1bmlwZXIgQnVzaW5lc3MgVXNlIE9ubHkNCg0KSnVuaXBl ciBCdXNpbmVzcyBVc2UgT25seQ0KDQpKdW5pcGVyIEJ1c2luZXNzIFVzZSBPbmx5DQpfX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KZG1tIG1haWxpbmcgbGlz dA0KZG1tQGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3VybGRlZmVuc2UuY29tL3YzL19faHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu aWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9kbW1fXzshIU5FdDZ5TWFPLWdrIVJvMXQyeVozSk9u RkdXNnNoM185czVtTUxuTnA1TElUaHVOM1lDbTNJamRMMldhR3FIOEdpRkhOSU1xY0tObm0kDQoN Ckp1bmlwZXIgQnVzaW5lc3MgVXNlIE9ubHkNCg0KSnVuaXBlciBCdXNpbmVzcyBVc2UgT25seQ0K From nobody Tue Jun 15 15:03:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dmm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dmm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80B363A3FA0 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 15:02:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OLysBByHguAT for ; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 15:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93CF53A3F9D for ; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 15:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4G4Mkh53W2z6G8m1; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 15:02:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1623794572; bh=qsFdAr171t0iMc3jzcTOqkUD5YLfQVhjzU+cPetk46M=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=cVIOB8zhWSHMsamK1fOJTydaIXDRjRNOQTNhyLqowWngI9E5ij1TJN4AeOl9Jz00p LoWuZ1pEbyEJZeYypXitaylRGs768yZe3jSrwwPQDULXlToUphQyXB7vvFnJNaAV8P JRvg3UbH5myHYIw5H/hYr0h5lPG3P1oZLulTIVeg= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.23.64] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4G4Mkg29ZVz6G7wQ; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 15:02:50 -0700 (PDT) To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Cc: "dmm@ietf.org" References: From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <8ecdac28-f021-89ae-cb0e-c7d803018466@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 18:02:49 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [DMM] Comments on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane-13 X-BeenThere: dmm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Distributed Mobility Management Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 22:03:00 -0000 Actually, assuming that the IETF TEAS network slicing definitions / framework and follow-on work is successful, it should be quite possible to deliver appropriate services (network sliced service based on IETF network slices) to 3GPPP GTP encapsulated 5G traffic while using the GTP-U encapsulation. SRv6 is likely to be one of several transport mechanisms available to do so. So if the inability to do so is the premise of your document, it appears to me that there is no need for the document. Yours, Joel PS: In fact, it is pretty clear that the needed services can be delivered even now in conjunction with GTP. The TEAS work will make managing and coordinating that delivery interoperably easier. On 6/15/2021 3:01 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote: > Hi Jeffrey, > > I've already provided one of the key motivations in my previous email. There is an operational challenge in the current mobility networks: there are no means to have a fine-granular SLA across both the mobile and the transport network. SRv6 is bridging this gap by integrating the underlay and the overlay control from the source node (either the gNB or the UPF). > I am not aware of any standardized solution that solves this problem. > Therefore, I disagree on your statement "the only benefit of SRv6-replacing-GTP-U is the MTU saving between SRv6 tunnel endpoints". > > Cheers, > Pablo. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Sent: lunes, 14 de junio de 2021 22:19 > To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > Cc: dmm@ietf.org > Subject: RE: Comments on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane-13 > > Hi Pablo, > > As you have alluded to, we're not converging but that's ok. > > My point is not to write a draft about SRv6-transported-GTP-U (there is no need for such draft, just like we don't need another draft about "transporting foo" with SRv6). My point is that the only benefit of SRv6-replacing-GTP-U is the MTU saving between SRv6 tunnel endpoints. > > There are other details that need to be taken care of in the draft, which we have been discussing. > > Jeffrey > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 3:47 PM > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Cc: dmm@ietf.org > Subject: RE: Comments on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane-13 > > [External Email. Be cautious of content] > > > Hi Jeffrey, > > Inline with [PC6]. Many thanks for your explicit answers. > > Cheers, > Pablo. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Sent: lunes, 14 de junio de 2021 21:01 > To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > Cc: dmm@ietf.org > Subject: RE: Comments on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane-13 > > Hi Pablo, > > Let me also copy (zzh2>, zzh3>) and explicitly add (zzh4>) my answers below. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 2:22 PM > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Cc: dmm@ietf.org > Subject: RE: Comments on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane-13 > > [External Email. Be cautious of content] > > > Jeffrey, > Inline with [PC5]. > Cheers, > Pablo. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Sent: lunes, 14 de junio de 2021 19:32 > To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) ; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > Cc: dmm@ietf.org > Subject: RE: Comments on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane-13 > > Hi Pablo, > > If we look at the my original points: > [PC5] Jeffrey, I believe both of your points have been answered. I've copied the relevant answers for your reference here below with PC, PC2 and PC4. Answer does not differ. If any clarification is needed on my previous answers, please let me know. Thanks. > > ------- > 1. Since GTP-U can be transported over SRv6, which can also make use of TE capability and used for service programing (NFS chaining), the only real difference between SRv6 tunnel and GTP-U tunnel is that the UDP/GTP-U header is no longer needed in the SRv6 tunnel case (in particular, the GTP-U TEID becomes part of the IPv6 address). With that, most of " 3. Motivation" are not really applicable. > [PC] The integration of the overlay with the underlay SLA and service chaining cannot be achieved with GTP-U. > [PC2] As documented in 5.2, the SID list imposed by the source node includes segments for traffic engineering, NFV, and the overlay creation -all within the context of one network slice-. All the intermediate nodes in the fabric are stateless, hence you achieve highly scalable SLA. > [PC2] With an SRv6 transported GTP-U, the gNB only inserts the GTP-U header. Then the cell site router needs to do a mapping of GTP-U sessions to SLA policies. This implies that you need some mapping mechanism at the Cell Site Router, that needs to have state. The gNB will not have any control of the underlay path, ... > > Zzh2> For SRv6-transported GTP-U, why can't the gNB itself put on the appropriate SRH like in the SRv6-replacing-GTP-U case? > Zzh2> As quoted/discussed later, even in SRv6-replacing-GTU-U case, the gNB does not get the SRv6 information from the AMF: > The gNB MAY resolve the IP address received via the control plane > into a SID list using a mechanism like PCEP, DNS-lookup, LISP > control-plane or others. The resolution mechanism is out of the > scope of this document. > Zzh2> With that, even if you have a separate device to do the mapping, why can't that device do the same? > Zzh2> In other words, I still don’t see difference wrt SLA between SRv6-transported-GTP-U and SRv6-replacing-GTP-U. > [PC3] If the gNB also adds the SRH as you suggest, then you are changing the N3/N9 interface as well. > > Zzh3> Wouldn't it be the other way around - SRv6-replacing-GTP-U is "changing the N3/N9 interface"? SRv6-transported-GTU-U is still the same N3/N9 interface, just that now they have SRH for traffic steering purpose. > [PC4] SRv6-replacing-GTP-U is a change in the N3/N9 interface. > > Zzh4> I said in zzh2> that with SRv6-transported-GTP-U, gNB could also add traffic steering via SRH - no different from SRv6-replacing-GTP-U. You said that's changing N3/N9, and I replied in zzh3> SRv6-replacing-GTP-U is changing the N3/N9, which you confirmed in [PC4]. Therefore, you have not really countered zzh2> above. > [PC6] There are no means to have fine-grained mapping of transport SLA with the mobility SLA. > [PC6] Any transport protocol that encapsulates the gNB packet in the cell site router cannot achieve fine-grained SLA due to scaling limitations and control plane complexity. > [PC6] One option to solve this problem is to use SRv6 as a replacement to GTP-U, whereas the gNB encodes the SLA in the packet. This is what this draft is about. > [PC6] Certainly you write a new I-D to define a new N3/N9 interfaces that bundle together the overlay and underlay protocols (e.g. the gNB pushes the GTP-U header together with the MPLS label stack of the transport). I don't see the benefits of such approach, and this draft is not proposing anything close to it. > > ------- > Aggregation can be done for traditional GTP-U, SRv6 transported GTP-U, or SRv6 replacing GTP-U. > [PC4] I'm not aware that 29.281 allows aggregating N3/N9 traffic from different TEIDs into the same TEID -despite from any local policy-. That said, this I-D is not proposing a change in GTPU. Hence, any discussion on GTPU aggregation or change to allow it in GTP-U is out of the scope of this draft. > ------- > Zzh4> It's not clear why you would refer to 29.281 - since it certainly does not talk about SRv6 either. Local policy means it's local behavior based on unchanged N2/N4 - if you play SRv6 tricks for aggregation one can certainly play other tricks for GTP-U based on local policy. I understand that aggregation in GTP-U (via local policy) is outside the scope of this draft and I am not suggesting to add that - my point is only that the aggregation benefit is not only enabled by or exclusive to SRv6. > [PC6] I completely agree with you. Aggregation can be achieved with GTP-U. It needs to be modified first though, as 29.281 -or any other 3GPP spec- does not seem to allow it; while in the case of SRv6 we are writing an I-D that explicitly allows it. > [PC6] Please let me know if there is any action item with respect to this comment on this I-D. As said, GTP-U aggregation is out of the scope of the document. > Zzh4> In summary, the benefit of SRv6-replacing-GTP-U is really just the MTU saving between the SRv6 endpoints, and I have not seen a real counter argument against that. > [PC6] I disagree with this comment for the reasons exposed above. > Zzh4> Jeffrey > [PC6] Please let me know whether there is any extra clarification needed. > > Our exchanges had some clarifications on details, but I don't think the above points have been invalidated. > [PC5] Please let me know whether there is any clarification needed on top of the previous answers. > > Jeffrey > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 1:16 PM > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang ; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > Cc: dmm@ietf.org > Subject: RE: Comments on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane-13 > > [External Email. Be cautious of content] > > > Hi Jeffrey, > Inline with PC4. > Pablo. > > -----Original Message----- > From: dmm On Behalf Of Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Sent: lunes, 14 de junio de 2021 18:00 > To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > Cc: dmm@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [DMM] Comments on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane-13 > > Hi Pablo, > > Please see zzh3> below. I don't agree with the two [PC3] points. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > Sent: Friday, June 11, 2021 10:17 AM > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Cc: dmm@ietf.org > Subject: RE: Comments on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane-13 > > [External Email. Be cautious of content] > > > Hi Jeffrey, > > Inline with [PC3]. > > Thanks, > Pablo. > > -----Original Message----- > From: dmm On Behalf Of Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Sent: lunes, 7 de junio de 2021 15:58 > To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > Cc: dmm@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [DMM] Comments on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane-13 > > Hi Pablo, > > Please see zzh2> below. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > Sent: Friday, June 4, 2021 12:53 PM > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Cc: dmm@ietf.org > Subject: RE: Comments on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane-13 > > [External Email. Be cautious of content] > > > Inline with PC2. > Many thanks and have a good weekend. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Sent: martes, 1 de junio de 2021 16:46 > To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > Cc: dmm@ietf.org > Subject: RE: Comments on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane-13 > > Hi Pablo, > > Please see zzh> below. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > Sent: Tuesday, June 1, 2021 7:23 AM > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Cc: dmm@ietf.org > Subject: RE: Comments on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane-13 > > [External Email. Be cautious of content] > > > Hi Jeffrey, > > Thanks for the reviews. Answers inline with [PC]. > > Thanks, > Pablo. > > -----Original Message----- > From: dmm On Behalf Of Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Sent: martes, 1 de junio de 2021 4:33 > To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) ; dmm@ietf.org > Subject: [DMM] Comments on draft-ietf-dmm-srv6-mobile-uplane-13 > > After many email exchanges and seeing two revisions (-12, -13), I now have a much better understanding of the draft. Here my further observations/understanding/comments. > > Observations/Understanding: > > A. This does *not* require *any* changes in the N2/N4 signaling. AMF/SMF/gNB/UPF will still use existing signaling based on GTP-U, but gNB/UPF will use either SRv6 or GTP-U tunnels based on local policy. > B. If both ends (gNB/UPF) of a tunnel use SRv6, no interworking is needed, and two modes (traditional/enhanced) are defined. This is in section 5.1 and 5.2 respectively. > C. If gNB does not use SRv6 but UPF does, an SRGW is placed next to the gNB. This is covered in 5.3 using enhanced mode example, but can be applied to traditional mode as well. > D. If neither gNB nor UPF uses SRv6, GTP-U tunnels could still be changed to SRv6 between two GWs - another SRGW is placed next to the UPF as well. This is covered in 5.4 and referred to as drop-in mode. > > [PC] All the observations look good, with a side note on A: Future documents may define a new signaling. > > Comments: > > 1. Since GTP-U can be transported over SRv6, which can also make use of TE capability and used for service programing (NFS chaining), the only real difference between SRv6 tunnel and GTP-U tunnel is that the UDP/GTP-U header is no longer needed in the SRv6 tunnel case (in particular, the GTP-U TEID becomes part of the IPv6 address). With that, most of " 3. Motivation" are not really applicable. > [PC] The integration of the overlay with the underlay SLA and service chaining cannot be achieved with GTP-U. > > Zzh> Can you elaborate how they're achieved w/ SRv6 replacing GTP-U and not achieved with SRv6 transported GTP-U? > [PC2] As documented in 5.2, the SID list imposed by the source node includes segments for traffic engineering, NFV, and the overlay creation -all within the context of one network slice-. All the intermediate nodes in the fabric are stateless, hence you achieve highly scalable SLA. > [PC2] With an SRv6 transported GTP-U, the gNB only inserts the GTP-U header. Then the cell site router needs to do a mapping of GTP-U sessions to SLA policies. This implies that you need some mapping mechanism at the Cell Site Router, that needs to have state. The gNB will not have any control of the underlay path, ... > Zzh2> For SRv6-transported GTP-U, why can't the gNB itself put on the appropriate SRH like in the SRv6-replacing-GTP-U case? > Zzh2> As quoted/discussed later, even in SRv6-replacing-GTU-U case, the gNB does not get the SRv6 information from the AMF: > The gNB MAY resolve the IP address received via the control plane > into a SID list using a mechanism like PCEP, DNS-lookup, LISP > control-plane or others. The resolution mechanism is out of the > scope of this document. > Zzh2> With that, even if you have a separate device to do the mapping, why can't that device do the same? > Zzh2> In other words, I still don’t see difference wrt SLA between SRv6-transported-GTP-U and SRv6-replacing-GTP-U. > [PC3] If the gNB also adds the SRH as you suggest, then you are changing the N3/N9 interface as well. > > Zzh3> Wouldn't it be the other way around - SRv6-replacing-GTP-U is "changing the N3/N9 interface"? SRv6-transported-GTU-U is still the same N3/N9 interface, just that now they have SRH for traffic steering purpose. > [PC4] SRv6-replacing-GTP-U is a change in the N3/N9 interface. > [PC4] SRv6-transported-GTP-U, if SRv6 is starting at the gNB and terminating at the UPF, to me it is also a change in N3/N9. > [PC4] SRv6-transported-GTP-U, if SRv6 is the transport starting at the cell site router, to me this is NOT a change in N3/N9. > > [PC2] By the way, the limitations of SRv6 transported GTP-U are also present in the Drop-in mode of this document. > > [PC] Actually you have a lot more of motivation in this document: draft-kohno-dmm-srv6mob-arch-04 > > Zzh> I had similar comments in that thread. > > 2. Besides the TEID, there are other parameters in the GTP-U header. How those are represented in the SRv6 header needs to be defined. > [PC] draft-murakami-dmm-user-plane-message-encoding-03 > > Zzh> That should be a normative reference then. > [PC2] I don't think any of those is required to implement the I-D. I could foresee an operator that is interested on this ID to also be interested on that one, but I don’t think this is a reason to add the normative reference.. > Zzh2> This document assumes that the 5G NFs will encode/decode SRv6 headers based on signaled GTP-U parameters, or GWs will convert between GTP-U and SRv6 headers. If that does not warrant a normative reference to draft-murakami, I am not sure what normative references are for. I'll defer this to chairs/ADs/IESG. > > 3. I still think there is no need to define the traditional/enhanced mode (see my reasoning below). > 4. Now it's not clear if the interworking mode (including the drop-in mode) is worth the trouble (see my reasoning at the end). > [PC] Answers to 3 and 4 below. > > Let me expand on #3 above. > > "5.1. Traditional mode" focuses on the one-to-one mapping among (PDU session, GTP-U tunnel, SRv6 tunnel) and casually mentions "SID list only contains a single SID". > " 5.2. Enhanced Mode" talks about two things: SID list for TE and service programing/chaining, and scalability improvement via aggregation. > > 5.2 says: > > The gNB MAY resolve the IP address received via the control plane > into a SID list using a mechanism like PCEP, DNS-lookup, LISP > control-plane or others. The resolution mechanism is out of the > scope of this document. > > That means the use of SID list for TE and service programming is not per the mobile architecture, but purely per operator's choice [PC] Indeed. The operator is the one that decides whether traffic needs a particular SLA. As in wireline... > , and it can also be used for both traditional mode and SRv6-transported GTP-U tunnels - really nothing special to be limited to enhanced mode only. > It is true that some gNB may not be able to put on an SRH, but that equipment limitation should not become a criteria - just like that for general SRv6 (outside this mobile user plane context) we don't have "basic" vs. "advanced/enhanced" modes just because some devices cannot insert SRH. > [PC] The motivation behind traditional mode is: > " The traditional mode minimizes the changes required to the mobile > system; hence it is a good starting point for forming a common > ground." > > Zzh> Why did we not have "basic" vs. "advanced/enhanced" modes for SRv6 in wireline networks 😊 There is no change to mobile system/architecture, except the transport network, which is no different from wireline. > [PC2] Fair point. 😉 I understand your opinion, but after three years the working group seemed to prefer the traditional mode. I note your preference. > > Defining traditional/enhanced mode based on aggregation is more reasonable. However, consider the following aspects: > > - Currently only up link traffic can benefit from aggregation, and that's only when the AMF provides the same for multiple PDU sessions > - The same can be done for traditional GTP-U, SRv6 transported GTP-U, or SRv6 replacing GTP-U. > [PC] GTP-U does not allow that. Certainly you could go to 3GPP and change the specs to allow it, but as per today it is not allowed. > > Zzh> We established that there is no change to N2/N4 or mobile architecture: AMF/SMF continue to signal GTP-U parameters like but gNB/UPF may use SRv6 replacing GTP-U per local policy. With that, how is uplink aggregation achieved? > [PC2] The local policy indicates to aggregate several bearers into the same SRv6 SID list. > Zzh2> For GTP-U, whether transported by SRv6 or not, traffic is routed based on the UPF/gNB address - that is aggregation already. If finer granularity is needed, similar local policy (to the ones used in SRv6-replacing-GTP-U case) can aggregate smaller subsets of UEs, right? > Zzh2> Basically, I really don't see any difference. > [PC3] As stated above, certainly you change the current GTP-U spec to allow aggregation as proposed in this I-D. However, the current GTP-U standard does not allow it. > > Zzh3> There is no change to GTP-U spec or N2/N4 interface. As stated above, it is the local policy (when finer granularity is needed) that does the aggregation - no different from SRv6-replacing-GTP-U. > [PC4] I'm not aware that 29.281 allows aggregating N3/N9 traffic from different TEIDs into the same TEID -despite from any local policy-. That said, this I-D is not proposing a change in GTPU. Hence, any discussion on GTPU aggregation or change to allow it in GTP-U is out of the scope of this draft. > Zzh3> Jeffrey > > Zzh2> Jeffrey > > Zzh> Thanks. > Zzh> Jeffrey > > The reason the aggregation is not applicable to downlink traffic is because the gNB does not do IP lookup based on inner header. > [PC] Indeed that is one option. That is new compared to today's mobile architecture. I don’t think its complex to implement though. End of the day we've done it for quite some time in wireline. Another option is to forward to a group of UEs and let the UE drop the packet based on the IPV6 DA. > Rather, downlink traffic forwarding on a gNB is purely based on TEID (whether it is in the GTP-U header or in the SRv6 SID). Therefore, the uplink aggregation or downlink aggregation (if gNB starts doing IP lookup based on inner header, which would be a big departure from existing architecture) is really controlled by the mobile architecture, not by the use of SRv6 tunnel. To achieve aggregation, the AMF/SMF will need to signal different GTP-U parameters, even though the signaling format does not need to change. > > As a result, defining traditional/enhanced mode for SRv6 user plane really is not necessary. > [PC] There is a motivation behind each of the modes. Operators find it easier to deploy this way. > > Now let me expand on #4 above. > > There is no real difference between SRv6-transported GTP-U and SRv6 replacing GTP-U (other than that the latter does not have UDP/GTP-U headers). If both tunnel ends can support SRv6 natively, it's reasonable to use SRv6 tunnels (replacing GTP-U) right at the tunnel ends. But if a gNB has to start/end with GTP-U (with the UDP/GTP-U headers), what is the benefit of converting to/from SRv6 by a GW, which means additional capex/opex? It's an additional failure point - the implementation could have bugs and it could fail for various reasons. It may be better off to only do SRv6 tunneling when both ends can support it. It's not clear to me that the bandwidth saving between the GW and UPF is worth the trouble. > [PC] Well... there are two differences between SRv6-transported GTPU and SRv6 replacing GTP-U. The first and obvious is the removal of the UDP/GTP-U header -which already has huge benefits as the IPv6 Flow Label for entropy 😉-. The second and most interesting difference is that the SRv6 replacement of GTP-U allows the integration of the overlay with the underlay SLA and service chaining. More in draft-kohno-dmm-srv6mob-arch-04. > > These are high level comments. 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