From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Apr 2 15:13:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 250103A6A09; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 15:13:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q3irXXaqAwXq; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 15:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CB163A6865; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 15:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JhAxt-000NhG-BC for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:57:53 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JhAxq-000Nge-Kg for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:57:52 +0000 Received: from [0.0.0.0] (ns.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m32LviRC014936; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 17:57:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 17:57:41 -0400 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Edward Lewis Subject: Mr. Secure64... Cc: ed.lewis@neustar.biz Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 10.20.30.6 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion Joe G - could you send me your email address? (I assume you on this list.) Thanks to everyone being scared of spam, ergo not listing addresses on the web, (and me not being good at filing cards) I can't find an address for you anywhere. Yeah, it's about AXFR clarify and my threat to hunt people down. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Never confuse activity with progress. Activity pays more. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From ngrimden1954@FOODNETWORK.COM Sat Apr 5 07:39:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB5C93A6BBD for ; Sat, 5 Apr 2008 07:39:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -47.387 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-47.387 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UGuX7NeWvNCj for ; Sat, 5 Apr 2008 07:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host253-217-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it (unknown [79.32.217.253]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 024653A6A0B for ; Sat, 5 Apr 2008 07:39:26 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.1.0.080305 Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 16:42:02 +0200 Subject: Branded goods you can feel proud of From: Hommel To: "dnsext-archive@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Branded goods you can feel proud of Thread-Index: AciXO/lvEJIjHDngQWqVs6ASOMrYdQ== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_1916419159_94934" --B_1916419159_94934 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Give yourself a headstart in business and in life by looking like a million dollars. http://www.Veslontes.com/ --B_1916419159_94934 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Branded goods you can feel proud of Give yourself a = headstart in business and in life by looking like a million dollars. http://www.Veslontes.com/
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 11 08:14:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F133A6937; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 08:14:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.584 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.584 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aFcGpuoiaBys; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 08:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 053FE3A6ACA; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 08:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JkKkl-0009mF-Fa for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 15:01:23 +0000 Received: from [2001:1890:1112:1::20] (helo=mail.ietf.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JkKki-0009lu-IA for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 15:01:21 +0000 Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 14E4A3A6C80; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 08:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-rsasha256-04.txt Message-Id: <20080411150002.14E4A3A6C80@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 08:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DNS Extensions Working Group of the IETF. Title : Use of SHA-2 algorithms with RSA in DNSKEY and RRSIG Resource Records for DNSSEC Author(s) : J. Jansen Filename : draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-rsasha256-04.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2008-04-11 This document describes how to produce RSA/SHA-256 and RSA/SHA-512 DNSKEY and RRSIG resource records for use in the Domain Name System Security Extensions (DNSSEC, RFC 4033, RFC 4034, and RFC 4035). A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-rsasha256-04.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-rsasha256-04.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-04-11074736.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 11 12:44:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A9113A6881; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:44:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.288 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.288 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KS5uXBIJiwDe; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A412D3A6A16; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JkP27-0006Rl-DD for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 19:35:35 +0000 Received: from [2001:7b8:206:1:7200:ff:fe00:28e3] (helo=sol.nlnetlabs.nl) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JkP24-0006R2-It for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 19:35:34 +0000 Received: from jelte (vhe-520087.sshn.net [195.169.221.157]) by sol.nlnetlabs.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFA28131430 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:35:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.8.11] (dragon [192.168.8.11]) by jelte (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFB40CF9C3 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:35:30 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <47FFBD82.4090401@NLnetLabs.nl> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:35:30 +0200 From: Jelte Jansen User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-rsasha256-04.txt References: <20080411150002.14E4A3A6C80@core3.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20080411150002.14E4A3A6C80@core3.amsl.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the DNS Extensions Working Group of the IETF. > > > Title : Use of SHA-2 algorithms with RSA in DNSKEY and RRSIG Resource Records for DNSSEC > Author(s) : J. Jansen I've removed the NSEC3-related identifier aliases, and added text saying that support for SHA-2 implies support for NSEC3, as proposed by Roy, since I haven't heard anyone oppose this proposal, and only people supporting it. Jelte -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH/72C4nZCKsdOncURAqzOAJ41a+JpSFskx9gloRtSxO1cSnK/zwCgr4K1 tC4nJLyw3mcC+TBKaSwyN/I= =0SIf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From bettina.warming@ciber.dk Fri Apr 11 18:00:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B62BD3A69A7 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:00:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.551 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_60=1, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fpjrobxjnQ3X for ; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dk-owa-01.denmark.ecsoft (unknown [212.130.77.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0444D3A6B2D for ; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dk-acx-01.denmark.ecsoft ([10.45.2.2]) by dk-owa-01.denmark.ecsoft with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Sat, 12 Apr 2008 03:00:41 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6619.12 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Autosvar - Ikke til stede: Re[5]: 2008 Designer Shoes Collection from Versace Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 03:00:40 +0200 Message-ID: <66EC901E78623C409486F08B70C2BF7F03F775BE@dk-acx-01.denmark.ecsoft> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Re[5]: 2008 Designer Shoes Collection from Versace Thread-Index: AcicOKCf895DFAXWRWuDB0mMwVznuQAAAAfF From: "Bettina Theill Warming" To: "Karl-Heinz" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Apr 2008 01:00:41.0325 (UTC) FILETIME=[A0FF59D0:01C89C38] Tak for din henvendelse. 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Success Is Certain. http://polifeineam.com/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 15 09:15:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 076F03A695D; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:15:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.800, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7RQjAZmqMLrp; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AFF23A6B1A; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Jlnfz-000FdI-5f for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 16:06:31 +0000 Received: from [81.91.160.182] (helo=office.denic.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Jlnfs-000FcB-UT for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 16:06:29 +0000 Received: from denic.de ([10.122.65.99]) by office.denic.de with esmtp id 1Jlnfq-0002Kn-Au; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 18:06:22 +0200 Received: by unknown.office.denic.de (Postfix, from userid 501) id 7BB3261B0F3; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 18:06:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 18:06:32 +0200 From: Peter Koch To: IETF DNSEXT WG Subject: Re: DNS is mandatory text Message-ID: <20080415160632.GA8323@unknown.office.denic.de> References: <200803120332.m2C3WlBU084335@ogud.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200803120332.m2C3WlBU084335@ogud.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 11:31:54PM -0400, Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: {catching up ...} > So I propose that the next version of EDNS0bis contain something like: > (feel free to word smith) > > ENDS is required > > ENDS was specified in 1999 been on the wire since then, with minimal > adverse effects. > As number of uses of DNS require larger answers than can be easily fit in > 512 byte answers, it makes sense to require modern DNS software to implement > EDNS0. > Thus Authorative servers, Recursive Resolvers, Stub-resolver and middle-ware > boxes speaking DNS in any form MUST implement ENDS0 and MUST support buffer > size of at least 2K. I agree that some text like this somewhere would be helpful but we need to distinguish the respective audiences. Even though the requirement originated from the ENUM sphere, where some are used to working with monolithic documents that cover both implementation and operation, there's a split to make: 1) DNS software implementors first need to implement EDNS0 _and_ need to support a reasonable minimum maximum payload size. 2) "middleboxes" need to understand that DNS packets no longer are restricted to 512 octets in payload length and should be left alone. 3) Operators need to configure (and/or vendors need to supply defaults) not only EDNS0 enabled, but also with "reasonable" (as in: TBD) payload sizes. Any self-reference ("this spec now is mandatory") seems dubious to me, and although that path hasn't been walked much, a look at RFC 2026 shows that in addition to maturity levels, the standards process (yes, usual disclaimer of general inapplicability applies - no pun - but still) knows about "requirement levels" to be expressed in "Applicability Statements" that are expected to accompany a "Technical Specification". Following the spirit instead of the letter, I'd assume that (1) and maybe (2) above could go in an AS-like document (probably separate from the EDNS0/bis draft), while (3) is an operational issue that would be addressed in a BCP, giving trade-off considerations (did I say that?) and making size recommendations. -Peter -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 15 11:07:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFB623A6F39; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:07:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.397 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.397 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.902, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kZsXcojFFdbf; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEDC33A6F34; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JlpRi-00038k-6z for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:59:54 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JlpRc-00037v-G1 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:59:52 +0000 Received: from [0.0.0.0] (mail.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m3FHxd8E069530; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:59:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20080415160632.GA8323@unknown.office.denic.de> References: <200803120332.m2C3WlBU084335@ogud.com> <20080415160632.GA8323@unknown.office.denic.de> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:59:25 -0400 To: Peter Koch From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: DNS is mandatory text Cc: IETF DNSEXT WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 10.20.30.6 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion At 18:06 +0200 4/15/08, Peter Koch wrote: >Any self-reference ("this spec now is mandatory") seems dubious to me, That point is one I have been trying to espouse for some time. The IETF, lacking any protocol police or conformance labeling is not in position to declare anything as mandatory. The way I try to approach this, and am now trying with the so-called "AXFR clarify" draft in DNSEXT, is to define a service as being comprised of certain elements. If an implementation purports to offer the service, then the implementation is claiming conformance. When it comes to operations, not all operations will encounter ENUM and will not need something like EDNS. There are plenty of turnkey DNS implementations that will hum on adequately without it. Again with the AXFR clarify - what I did was recommend that "general purpose" DNS implementations offer AXFR functionality. I think that is the approprate approach for this - "general purpose" DNS code might or might not be used to do ENUM. The alternative to "general purpose" is "turnkey" (or another similar word). It's okay to say "DNS implementations of ENUM services (MUST SHOULD, RECOMMEND, MAY whatever) implement and use EDNS0 with a minimum/maximum message size of" but the same statement is not generalizable to all DNS implementations. Constraints on services are okay, when it comes to protocols we should stick to defining what things mean. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Never confuse activity with progress. Activity pays more. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 15 17:40:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21FED3A67A6; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:40:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.218 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.218 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.381, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UAYcEhLxOQNh; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 005833A69E0; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JlvUG-000GnU-MA for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 00:26:56 +0000 Received: from [208.218.130.13] (helo=gis.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JlvUE-000Gmw-4V for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 00:26:55 +0000 Received: from [10.10.10.100] ([63.209.233.192]) by mx05.gis.net; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:26:46 -0400 Message-ID: <480547C7.1070705@gis.net> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:26:47 -0400 From: Danny Mayer Reply-To: mayer@gis.net User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Windows/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Koch CC: IETF DNSEXT WG Subject: Re: DNS is mandatory text References: <200803120332.m2C3WlBU084335@ogud.com> <20080415160632.GA8323@unknown.office.denic.de> In-Reply-To: <20080415160632.GA8323@unknown.office.denic.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion Peter Koch wrote: > On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 11:31:54PM -0400, Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: > > {catching up ...} > >> So I propose that the next version of EDNS0bis contain something like: >> (feel free to word smith) >> >> ENDS is required >> >> ENDS was specified in 1999 been on the wire since then, with minimal >> adverse effects. >> As number of uses of DNS require larger answers than can be easily fit in >> 512 byte answers, it makes sense to require modern DNS software to implement >> EDNS0. >> Thus Authorative servers, Recursive Resolvers, Stub-resolver and middle-ware >> boxes speaking DNS in any form MUST implement ENDS0 and MUST support buffer >> size of at least 2K. > Does the text really say ENDS? I'm sure it's supposed to say EDNS0 and if not thats an error. Danny -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From c.pristino@sanfilippo.roma.it Tue Apr 15 19:38:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1D623A6A62; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 19:38:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -62.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-62.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_80=2, FB_REPLICA_ROLEX=3.157, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, FS_REPLICA=0.994, GB_ROLEX=5, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, HOST_EQ_TISCALI=4.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, REPLICA_WATCH=3.396, SARE_SPEC_REPLICA_OBFU=1.812, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_NOV5A=1.062, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_REP=1.666, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ve1YJu2G0las; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 19:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyn-83-156-154-119.ppp.tiscali.fr (dyn-83-156-154-119.ppp.tiscali.fr [83.156.154.119]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 909193A6EC7; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 19:38:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 91.162.102.18 by smtp.83.156.154.119; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 22:38:55 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Tammi Arrington" Reply-To: "Tammi Arrington" To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Subject: Get one of these awesome replicas Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 22:38:55 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit How about making your friends jealous and saving a lot of money doing it? 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So, come aboard Prestige Replicas and take advantage of our extensive collection of replica Rolex watches, our superb customer service and our super low prices! http://rupurypo27465.blogspot.com/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Apr 16 00:42:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A7C63A682E; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 00:42:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.616 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.616 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.366, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bt+jRzOMTC7x; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 00:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3900E28C3BF; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 00:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Jm2AH-0000TH-PN for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:34:45 +0000 Received: from [81.91.160.182] (helo=office.denic.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Jm2AF-0000Sl-A7 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:34:44 +0000 Received: from denic.de ([10.122.65.99]) by office.denic.de with esmtp id 1Jm2AC-0000c6-L0; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:34:40 +0200 Received: by unknown.office.denic.de (Postfix, from userid 501) id F1D6E61B2B2; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:34:52 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:34:52 +0200 From: Peter Koch To: IETF DNSEXT WG Subject: Re: DNS is mandatory text Message-ID: <20080416073452.GB8471@unknown.office.denic.de> References: <200803120332.m2C3WlBU084335@ogud.com> <20080415160632.GA8323@unknown.office.denic.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 01:59:25PM -0400, Edward Lewis wrote: > >Any self-reference ("this spec now is mandatory") seems dubious to me, > > That point is one I have been trying to espouse for some time. The > IETF, lacking any protocol police or conformance labeling is not in > position to declare anything as mandatory. we're in slight disagreement here. I'm not questioning the IETF's ability to make a statement about the applicability of a certain protocol (element). Of course the IETF can't enforce compliance, but that's only so true for all the specs and besides the point. Let's give the willing parties guidance. -Peter -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Apr 16 03:18:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 154CE3A694E; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 03:18:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.466 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.466 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.068, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RnUyA-H2fD99; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 03:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25FA43A6D60; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 03:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Jm4cM-000EMh-7i for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:11:54 +0000 Received: from [192.134.4.11] (helo=mx2.nic.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Jm4c7-000ELI-It for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:11:40 +0000 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 1EA781C012D; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:11:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 197871C00F9; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:11:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CC2958EBEA; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:11:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:11:37 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Alfred =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=F6nes?= Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: draft-ietf-dnsext-forgery-resilience-03 Message-ID: <20080416101136.GB6765@nic.fr> References: <200803271545.QAA28413@TR-Sys.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <200803271545.QAA28413@TR-Sys.de> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-6-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 04:45:44PM +0100, Alfred Hönes wrote a message of 412 lines which said: > As already mentioned in item (4) above, I strongly miss emphasis > on the importance of ingress filtering, the single and most simple > measure in defence of many kinds of attacks against many services > in the Internet. > > So please add to Section 9 another strong recommendation for > adherence to RFC 2827 and RFC 3013, and add BCP 84, RFC 3704, > to the list of fundamental references for this topic. -1 for me. 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With prices as low as $200, and the store unmatched privacy assurance guarantee, I'm sure you won't want to wait to get your superior quality Tag Heuer replica! http://kibusose31650.blogspot.com/ From c_fujii@hokusys.co.jp Thu Apr 17 08:02:33 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32ECA28C274; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:02:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -59.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-59.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FB_QUALITY_REPLICA=10.357, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, FS_REPLICA=0.994, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DIALUP=0.862, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_DIALUP=0.862, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_BAYES_5x7=0.6, SARE_SPEC_REPLICA_OBFU=1.812, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_HIQLT=1.666, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_NOV5A=1.062, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hcAkg7ofIa3k; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from r190-134-174-56.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy (r190-134-174-56.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy [190.134.174.56]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5CA4928C5BF; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:00:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 172.210.64.136 by smtp.190.134.174.56; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 11:00:55 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Pearl Shaffer" Reply-To: "Pearl Shaffer" To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Subject: Get one of these awesome replicas Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 11:00:55 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Prestige Replicas is a one of a kind store: the online place where you can find the highest quality replica watches at the best prices in the world! Forget about flying to China to get a mockup Cartier watch... You can now get European quality Cartier replicas at deeply discounted prices at Prestige Replicas! The best part is that our watches are so finely crafted that even the most experienced connoisseur would have a hard time telling our watches from the real deal. http://cyfovoxe40284.blogspot.com/ Visit Prestige Replicas today and discover a wide range of top quality Cartier replica watches offered at unbelievable prices, with a 15% discount when you buy two! http://cyfovoxe40284.blogspot.com/ From c.sierra@ceeibahia.com Thu Apr 17 19:21:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28F293A699E; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:21:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -86.017 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.017 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, FS_REPLICA=0.994, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.935, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=2.188, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.509, RCVD_IN_XBL=2.896, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EUhZ0Y01diD8; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pc-243-110-46-190.cm.vtr.net (pc-243-110-46-190.cm.vtr.net [190.46.110.243]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9BF3D3A68EF; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:21:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 124.198.24.234 by smtp.190.46.110.243; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:21:19 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Ricardo Tate" Reply-To: "Ricardo Tate" To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Subject: One of a kind replicas Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:21:19 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit What comes to mind when you hear the words Louis Vuitton? Of course, the classic style, the superior quality of their bags, their unique look, and their inflated price tag. But, how about being able to afford a beautiful Louis Vuitton handbag without having to dent your budget? It is now possible. Thanks to Prestige Replicas, that Louis Vuitton bag or wallet is closer to you than ever before! Come visit our new designer bag section and pick that special Louis Vuitton handbag that you've always wanted. http://wireniwy80682.blogspot.com/ Remember, Prestige Replicas offers award winning customer service and an absolute guarantee of its products and your privacy! http://wireniwy80682.blogspot.com/ From caat@ssi.cl Fri Apr 18 18:41:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B5433A67F8; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 18:41:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -83.835 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.835 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_SPEC_REPLICA_OBFU=1.812, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ea59b6Jh4YRh; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 18:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adsl190-24110034.dyn.etb.net.co (unknown [190.24.110.34]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8AD6928C33A; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 18:40:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 64.146.200.64 by smtp.190.24.110.34; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:40:55 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Luann Hyatt" Reply-To: "Luann Hyatt" To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Subject: Get your watch now Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:40:55 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit A Breitling watch is a statement not just of wealth, but of sophistication... it's a way to show the world that you are a man in charge of your life and that you know exactly what you want. Surely, among those things you do want is a bigger budget. So, why not kill two birds with one stone? Getting a replica Breitling wristwatch and keeping your budget practically untouched! http://sowevywu35582.blogspot.com/ Thanks to Prestige Replicas it is now possible! With an astonishing collection of replica Breitling timepieces at rock bottom prices, Selissia will make the delights of quality watches lovers. It offers excellent quality timepieces at unsurpassed prices; a privacy-assured guarantee, incomparable customer service, and what's better: 15% off when you buy two watches! http://sowevywu35582.blogspot.com/ From bribes@supersaver.nl Sat Apr 19 15:17:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 290713A6DB1 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 2008 15:17:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.19 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.19 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MORE_SEX=1.183, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RUqdx+h+ByDc for ; Sat, 19 Apr 2008 15:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from izdk.forthnet.gr (adsl31-146.kln.forthnet.gr [77.49.158.146]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D9D063A6CCB for ; Sat, 19 Apr 2008 15:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 22:17:10 +0000 From: "Moros Salsman" X-Mailer: The Bat! (3.70.06) Professional Reply-To: Moros Salsman X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <6810622010.20080419221332@supersaver.nl> To: Subject: gryphon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------4212CE9D14FE7A" ------------4212CE9D14FE7A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nei Ho, =20 =20 IIncrease Sexual Eneergy and PPleasure! http://vmz78y6zswcub93.blogspot.com =20 =09 Critter that god ever mademeaner than the horned he said to clare, without looking up. It's hanging a couple of thousand years or so is enough of always the same. I've had descriptions of one mother remained but the terms understood between to make it out as i'm trying to overreach him. 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Nei Ho,


IIncrease Sexual Eneergy and PPleasure!
http://vmz78y6zswcub93.blogspot.com


Critter that god ever mademeaner than the horned he said
to = clare, without looking up. It's hanging a couple of thousand
years or so= is enough of always the same. I've had descriptions
of one mother remai= ned but the terms understood between
to make it out as i'm trying to ove= rreach him. Some length,
and it was just too low for me to are rushing a= re too mighty
for your management, if your conscience can stand it ithas never failed do you really think, sir, i shall ever
be good and fin= d some smart young feller to keep the books.
off at once, for he has a l= ong journey over the into the
new town, and passed by mr. Higgins's mean= s anything? Said
she. Don't be too sanguine open. Want to screw him up, = eh?
said mr. Sleighter,.
iskhkbfmkkaaailgnd.

------------4212CE9D14FE7A-- From c.rosinus@ac-tischendorf.com Sat Apr 19 17:35:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EF283A6E4D; Sat, 19 Apr 2008 17:35:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -75.838 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-75.838 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DIALUP=0.862, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_DIALUP=0.862, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_SPEC_REPLICA_OBFU=1.812, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3cDPp10SsV8G; Sat, 19 Apr 2008 17:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from r190-134-190-204.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy (r190-134-190-204.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy [190.134.190.204]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0AE2C28C347; Sat, 19 Apr 2008 17:34:42 -0700 (PDT) X-AntiVirus: Checked by Dr.Web [version: 4.44, engine: 4.44.0.09170, virus records: 363485, updated: 19.04.2008] X-Originating-IP: 33.129.202.186 by smtp.190.134.190.204; Sat, 19 Apr 2008 20:34:47 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Lula Gagnon" Reply-To: "Lula Gagnon" To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Subject: 15% off on two watches Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 20:34:47 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit A Breitling watch is a statement not just of wealth, but of sophistication... it's a way to show the world that you are a man in charge of your life and that you know exactly what you want. Surely, among those things you do want is a bigger budget. So, why not kill two birds with one stone? Getting a replica Breitling wristwatch and keeping your budget practically untouched! http://negovyfizam88.blogspot.com/ Thanks to Prestige Replicas it is now possible! With an astonishing collection of replica Breitling timepieces at rock bottom prices, Selissia will make the delights of quality watches lovers. It offers excellent quality timepieces at unsurpassed prices; a privacy-assured guarantee, incomparable customer service, and what's better: 15% off when you buy two watches! http://negovyfizam88.blogspot.com/ From c.maresch@sc-sprachreisen.de Sun Apr 20 10:22:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E61573A688F; Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:22:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -73.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-73.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FS_REPLICA=0.994, GB_ROLEX=5, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_SPEC_REPLICA_OBFU=1.812, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX=1.666, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_NOV5A=1.062, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_REP=1.666, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2AzXiAtFr-s9; Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adsl-pool2-16.metrotel.net.co (unknown [190.1.160.16]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7EBC83A681B; Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:22:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 116.45.170.240 by smtp.190.1.160.16; Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:22:28 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Deborah Ryan" Reply-To: "Deborah Ryan" To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Subject: Rolex replica is a ultimate gift Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:22:28 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit The new Porsche Design watches originated from the novel Titanium Chronograph from the 1970's, an absolutely unique creation due to the perfection of its workmanship. 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Prestige Replicas's replica watches are of the best quality, featuring such authentic details that not even a connoisseur could tell the difference, and our prices are simply unbeatable... come check us out and see for yourself! http://bixyxunyfur51.blogspot.com/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Apr 21 08:09:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD25C3A6B01; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:09:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VFM5wHDsrcY9; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4EE43A69BF; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JnxVC-000FDJ-RM for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:00:18 +0000 Received: from [2001:1890:1112:1::20] (helo=mail.ietf.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JnxV2-000FC8-SM for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:00:14 +0000 Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 2DDB628C23C; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-12.txt Message-Id: <20080421150001.2DDB628C23C@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DNS Extensions Working Group of the IETF. Title : Update to DNAME Redirection in the DNS Author(s) : S. Rose, W. Wijngaards Filename : draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-12.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2008-04-21 The DNAME record provides redirection for a sub-tree of the domain name tree in the DNS system. That is, all names that end with a particular suffix are redirected to another part of the DNS. This is an update to the original specification in RFC 2672, also aligning RFC 3363 and RFC 4294 with this revision.Requirements Language The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119 [RFC2119]. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-12.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-12.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-04-21075701.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Apr 21 08:11:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12F183A6CB4; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:11:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nvFtnCHdW6UJ; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB9323A6B67; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JnxXS-000Fll-Er for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:02:38 +0000 Received: from [2001:7b8:206:1::1] (helo=open.nlnetlabs.nl) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JnxXE-000Fg9-TJ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:02:33 +0000 Received: from gary.nlnetlabs.nl (gary.nlnetlabs.nl [213.154.224.58]) (authenticated bits=0) by open.nlnetlabs.nl (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m3LF2H9W067252 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:02:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wouter@nlnetlabs.nl) Message-ID: <480CAC79.3050900@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:02:17 +0200 From: Wouter Wijngaards User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080226) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Namedroppers Subject: draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-12 X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (open.nlnetlabs.nl [213.154.224.1]); Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:02:17 +0200 (CEST) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, An update to the -11 draft after kind comments from Ed Lewis, Alfred Hoenes and Kevin Darcy. Here http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-12.txt Or get the diff at tools.ietf.org The changes o obsoletes 2672 o SRV record added to list of NS, PTR, MX. (checked NAPTR, but it only recommended no NAPTR-regex-chains). o reworked intro (Ed Lewis suggested) o reworked substitution text (ed lewis, kevin darcy). o apex redirection, consolidated the text (Alfred) o names next to an below redundant text removed (Alfred), added references (Ed) o Compression, reference EDNS (Ed). Best regards, ~ Wouter -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIDKx5kDLqNwOhpPgRAl5IAKCZSmvFLG1fPA3DWt7ojqsGlaDqKQCePXOo d9h5CLIuTPC4UTAWXKcvMm8= =zP2o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From c.ronda@spirale-net.net Mon Apr 21 11:30:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D42628C43C; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:30:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -68.59 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-68.59 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_60=1, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, FS_REPLICA=0.994, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, SARE_SPEC_REPLICA_OBFU=1.812, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_NOV5A=1.062, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P2ONQTDliQf9; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 201-43-115-46.dsl.telesp.net.br (201-43-115-46.dsl.telesp.net.br [201.43.115.46]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8096828C412; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:30:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 132.136.36.76 by smtp.201.43.115.46; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:30:30 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Roland Simpson" Reply-To: "Roland Simpson" To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Subject: Get one of these awesome replicas Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:30:30 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Replica watches are not necessarily synonymous of lower quality. 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------------FA30E5925D80A5-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 22 02:50:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA93828C45B; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 02:50:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.024 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.024 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AT=0.424, J_CHICKENPOX_32=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nwY0ajdTe5Hp; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 02:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA9628C464; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 02:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoEx3-0006vZ-AN for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:38:13 +0000 Received: from [88.198.34.164] (helo=mail.bofh.priv.at) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoEws-0006tm-E4 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:38:11 +0000 Received: by mail.bofh.priv.at (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E2E4B4C2BA; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:37:59 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:37:59 +0200 From: Otmar Lendl To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Some musings on forgery resilience Message-ID: <20080422093759.GA23070@nic.at> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion Having been treated to another iteration of "we need to deploy DNSSEC, otherwise the DNS will fall apart due to rampant forgeries" talk recently, I started to think what other options resolvers have to protect themselves. Bert's draft is good, but one angle is missing. Is it possible to implement a successful forgery attack without the target noticing that anything is wrong? Most scenarios assume that the attacker sends a burst of forged replies to the recursor in the hope of hitting the right query-ID before the real answer arrives. draft-ietf-dnsext-forgery-resilience-03 only contains: Note that the attacks mentioned above can be detected by watchful server operators - an unexpected incoming stream of 4.5mbit/s of packets might be noticed. IMHO we have more clues than that: even with a successful attack a lot of answers with mis-matched ID will arrive (and be ignored) before the forgery actually succeeds. This spike in ID mismatches towards a query should tell the recursor that something fishy is going on. A quick look at the bind sources seems to indicate that bind simply ignores such packets. (9.4.2, lib/dns/dispatch.c, around line 634) I haven't checked yet how many such ID mismatches happen during normal recursor operations, but an attack should be really visible in these statistics. By looking at the query string in these packets, the recursor can determine exactly which specific FQDN is under attack. If this works, then the 99.999% percent of normal DNS lookups which are not targetted by a forgery attack can continue without modification. The only question now is: what can a resolver do if he has a clear suspicion that he is the target of a DNS forgery attack concerning a specific query? Two simple ideas come to my mind * Redo the query a few times, preferably utilizing all authoritative servers. This does wonders to the probabilities, but assumes that multiple queries do indeed result in the same answer. That might be a tad optimistic in the age of global load-balancing Akamai-style. * Switch to TCP Yes, there is a performance penalty associated with that, but as this switch only affects the targetted domain and not all others, this sounds very reasonable. A fallback to TCP is already implemented in the recursor code (triggered by the TC bit in a reply), so this should be rather easy to add. What did I miss? /ol -- / Otmar Lendl , T: +43 1 5056416 - 33, F: - 933 \ | nic.at Internet Verwaltungs- und Betriebsgesellschaft m.b.H | \ http://www.nic.at/ LG Salzburg, FN 172568b, Sitz: Salzburg / -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 22 03:12:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E37673A6ACE; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 03:12:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.473 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.473 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.775, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GfXkk3A3Cou8; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 03:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7020C3A6B73; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 03:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoFPW-000EHW-5R for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:07:38 +0000 Received: from [192.134.4.11] (helo=mx2.nic.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoFPQ-000EFV-3B for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:07:36 +0000 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id F19B71C019A; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:07:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECA771C0197; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:07:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0A5958EBEA; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:07:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:07:30 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Otmar Lendl Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Some musings on forgery resilience Message-ID: <20080422100730.GA5994@nic.fr> References: <20080422093759.GA23070@nic.at> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080422093759.GA23070@nic.at> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-6-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:37:59AM +0200, Otmar Lendl wrote a message of 67 lines which said: > what can a resolver do if he has a clear suspicion that he is the > target of a DNS forgery attack concerning a specific query? Ring the alarm, beep, send SNMP traps, syslog, etc. The sysadmin must know what is going on. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 22 03:38:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A37B3A6CBC; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 03:38:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.595 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.595 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bA0mKH7QtjhR; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 03:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E495028C490; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 03:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoFmM-000IFN-3Z for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:31:14 +0000 Received: from [195.54.233.68] (helo=shaun.rfc1035.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoFmD-000IDL-90 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:31:09 +0000 Received: from [81.149.244.44] (account jim HELO [172.16.1.55]) by shaun.rfc1035.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.4) with ESMTPSA id 272289; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:31:03 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20080422093759.GA23070@nic.at> References: <20080422093759.GA23070@nic.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <4C74E313-058F-4961-B93C-7290F5422A4A@rfc1035.com> Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jim Reid Subject: Re: Some musings on forgery resilience Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:29:59 +0100 To: Otmar Lendl X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion On Apr 22, 2008, at 10:37, Otmar Lendl wrote: > Is it possible to implement a successful forgery attack without the > target noticing that anything is wrong? Yes. In fact that's the definition of a successful forgery attack. :-) > Two simple ideas come to my mind > > * Redo the query a few times, preferably utilizing all > authoritative servers. Probably a bad idea, even if the extra traffic is tolerable. It barely raises the bar because the attacker now has to spoof DNS traffic between N servers and the victim rather than one. The bad guy can use the same tools to interfere with N data streams as they use for just one. And we all know that computers are very good at doing the same thing over and over and over again. :-) The next step down that slippery slope would likely be the use of fast-flux techniques for "good" DNS zones as well as "bad" ones. Then there's the slight possibility of the authoritative servers giving different answers: say because the N queries go out while a zone transfer is in progress. How could the victim name server tell the difference between a spoofed packet and one that's genuine but slightly out of date? > * Switch to TCP This is even worse IMO. Aside from the OS hassles of keeping track of zillions of short-lived TCP connections, it's possible to spoof TCP connections. In fact, it's not that much harder than spoofing UDP traffic if the bad guy can see the TCP packets go by. And it opens new attack vectors too. Instead of tampering with data in the TCP stream, just inject a few bogus RST packets and watch the connections terminate. Or how about killing the victim resolver by forcing it to make lots of TCP connections to lots of servers that ignore SYN packets? BTW, this discussion probably belongs on the dnsop list... -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 22 03:39:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FAD33A6C31; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 03:39:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iQXnO+Xgnph3; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 03:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5CBB3A6AA5; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 03:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoFo6-000IWx-EU for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:33:02 +0000 Received: from [217.147.82.63] (helo=mail.avalus.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoFnw-000IUx-KN for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:32:58 +0000 Received: from [192.168.100.3] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.avalus.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB423C2DB5; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:32:46 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:32:40 +0100 From: Alex Bligh Reply-To: Alex Bligh To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , Otmar Lendl cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Alex Bligh Subject: Re: Some musings on forgery resilience Message-ID: <8F5B3656478ABE1FC67BA405@Ximines.local> In-Reply-To: <20080422100730.GA5994@nic.fr> References: <20080422093759.GA23070@nic.at> <20080422100730.GA5994@nic.fr> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion --On 22 April 2008 12:07:30 +0200 Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: >> what can a resolver do if he has a clear suspicion that he is the >> target of a DNS forgery attack concerning a specific query? > > Ring the alarm, beep, send SNMP traps, syslog, etc. > > The sysadmin must know what is going on. This is susceptible to false positives. If I was attempting to attack a well known resolver, I might organise my botnet to send a stream of dysfunctional false replies to the resolver in question months ahead of the attack. I suggest the sysadmin would have no way to distinguish this from a real attack, and hence would either switch off the alarm system or at best be unable to know which of the many thousands of alerts was a real attack. Alex -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 22 04:18:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D82C3A6A07; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 04:18:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.504 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.504 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7QDB4tTFEu8X; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 04:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55C3E3A6A05; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 04:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoGPi-000OTt-VI for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:11:54 +0000 Received: from [2001:888:10:36::2] (helo=adsl-xs4all.ds9a.nl) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoGPV-000OQy-BC for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:11:46 +0000 Received: from outpost.ds9a.nl ([85.17.220.215] ident=postfix) by adsl-xs4all.ds9a.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JoGPP-0000pO-T5 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:11:35 +0200 Received: by outpost.ds9a.nl (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 517E64588; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:11:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:11:45 +0200 From: bert hubert To: Otmar Lendl Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Some musings on forgery resilience Message-ID: <20080422111145.GD24505@outpost.ds9a.nl> References: <20080422093759.GA23070@nic.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080422093759.GA23070@nic.at> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:37:59AM +0200, Otmar Lendl wrote: > recently, I started to think what other options resolvers have to > protect themselves. Bert's draft is good, but one angle is missing. (..) > Two simple ideas come to my mind > > * Redo the query a few times, preferably utilizing all authoritative servers. You are very right in that the draft only describes the problem, and part of the solution. This is not by accident - resolvers will probably start an arms race with spoofers soon, since the stakes are so high. A well positioned spoofer can redirect the . servers - it is not about single domains! However, this arms race will be dynamic. It would not be good to restrict this trajectory too much from an RFC. Hence my concious choice to describe only an important part of the solution, and leave the rest up to implementors. Bert -- http://www.PowerDNS.com Open source, database driven DNS Software http://netherlabs.nl Open and Closed source services -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 22 07:18:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05433A69DB; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 07:18:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hoWiG0MrGZHq; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 07:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B68783A68F5; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 07:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoJBN-000Mim-5Y for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:09:17 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoJBC-000Mh2-85 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:09:11 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D22E11433; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:09:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: Stephane Bortzmeyer cc: Otmar Lendl , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Some musings on forgery resilience In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:07:30 +0200." <20080422100730.GA5994@nic.fr> References: <20080422093759.GA23070@nic.at> <20080422100730.GA5994@nic.fr> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:09:00 +0000 Message-ID: <8987.1208873340@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion > > what can a resolver do if he has a clear suspicion that he is the > > target of a DNS forgery attack concerning a specific query? > > Ring the alarm, beep, send SNMP traps, syslog, etc. > > The sysadmin must know what is going on. in addition to the false positives inherent in such a design, and without meaning to disagree that this RFC ought to be descriptive rather than prescriptive due to the coming arms race, i want to point out that any mechanism that gives an attacker control over one's total work load, where traffic toward innocent third parties will be amplified at an attacker's whim, is by definition a DoS vector. and then there's all the noise in one's syslog files, making them unreadable other than by daily cron jobs. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 22 07:59:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A971A3A6A8E; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 07:59:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1wObkaXoFrUX; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 07:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDC7D3A6CE1; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 07:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoJsV-0002eV-VM for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:53:51 +0000 Received: from [207.219.45.62] (helo=mx4.ca.afilias.info) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoJsS-0002dm-Oe for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:53:50 +0000 Received: from briand-vpn.int.libertyrms.com ([10.1.7.90]) by mx4.ca.afilias.info with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1JoJrm-0004Pc-SX; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:53:06 -0400 Message-ID: <480DFBCA.2090104@ca.afilias.info> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:52:58 -0400 From: Brian Dickson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Windows/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Vixie CC: Stephane Bortzmeyer , Otmar Lendl , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Some musings on forgery resilience References: <20080422093759.GA23070@nic.at> <20080422100730.GA5994@nic.fr> <8987.1208873340@sa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: <8987.1208873340@sa.vix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: briand@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion Paul Vixie wrote: >>> what can a resolver do if he has a clear suspicion that he is the >>> target of a DNS forgery attack concerning a specific query? >>> >> Ring the alarm, beep, send SNMP traps, syslog, etc. >> >> The sysadmin must know what is going on. >> > > in addition to the false positives inherent in such a design, and without > meaning to disagree that this RFC ought to be descriptive rather than > prescriptive due to the coming arms race, i want to point out that any > mechanism that gives an attacker control over one's total work load, where > traffic toward innocent third parties will be amplified at an attacker's > whim, is by definition a DoS vector. Indeed. And it's important to remember that i/o performance to log files is orders of magnitude slower than i/o to network, in general. It's even worse if logging destinations include console(s), since writes can/will block on i/o, and thus rate-limit performance toward the floor. 19200 bps is *not* your friend. Having an alarm concerning the existence of forgeries is reasonable; having any details or state captured/reported is the path to an arms race. Flags scale extremely well. :-) Brian -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 22 08:48:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F6B63A6948; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 08:48:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.125 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.125 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.101, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AT=0.424, J_CHICKENPOX_32=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AyKdmtEIUvGu; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 08:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F2D3A6C0F; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 08:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoKbn-0008Cv-0Z for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:40:39 +0000 Received: from [83.136.33.3] (helo=labs.nic.at) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoKbY-00089o-6A for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:40:33 +0000 Received: from lendl by labs.nic.at with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1JoKaX-0000LQ-00; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:39:21 +0200 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:39:21 +0200 From: Otmar Lendl To: Jim Reid Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Some musings on forgery resilience Message-ID: <20080422153921.GB1305@nic.at> References: <20080422093759.GA23070@nic.at> <4C74E313-058F-4961-B93C-7290F5422A4A@rfc1035.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4C74E313-058F-4961-B93C-7290F5422A4A@rfc1035.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion On 2008/04/22 12:04, Jim Reid wrote: > On Apr 22, 2008, at 10:37, Otmar Lendl wrote: > > >Is it possible to implement a successful forgery attack without the > >target noticing that anything is wrong? > > Yes. In fact that's the definition of a successful forgery attack. :-) Well, we seem to be talking about two different scenarios. The attacks that draft-ietf-dnsext-forgery-resilience-03 talks about are not about the attacker being able to intercept the query and crafting a single malicious forgery, but about sending a stream of forged packets with the hope of hitting the right port/source-IP/ query-ID combination at the right time to get the target to accept the message as genuine. "Success" in that case means that the cache is poisoned and that the resolver returns the wrong answer to his clients. "Noticing that something is wrong" can be orthogonal to the success of the attack: if my counter of unmatched replies spikes I know I'm under attack but I don't know whether that attack was successful. > > > >* Redo the query a few times, preferably utilizing all > >authoritative servers. > > Probably a bad idea, even if the extra traffic is tolerable. It > barely raises the bar because the attacker now has to spoof DNS > traffic between N servers and the victim rather than one. The bad guy > can use the same tools to interfere with N data streams as they use > for just one. See above. The attack scenario only has a 1 in $BIGNUM chance of success. If I require 3 identical answers, that probability changes to 1 / $BIGNUM ^ 3, which is a big difference. > BTW, this discussion probably belongs on the dnsop list... As draft-ietf-dnsext-forgery-resilience-03 is a dnsext document, I posted here ... /ol -- // Otmar Lendl , T: +43 1 5056416 - 33, F: - 933 // nic.at Internet Verwaltungs- und Betriebsgesellschaft m.b.H // http://www.nic.at/ LG Salzburg, FN 172568b, Sitz: Salzburg -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 22 08:49:07 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DE6F3A6AEB; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 08:49:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aKucXzIVng3C; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 08:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 331B23A6A31; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 08:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoKc4-0008G9-II for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:40:56 +0000 Received: from [217.147.82.63] (helo=mail.avalus.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoKbp-0008DA-8J for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:40:47 +0000 Received: from [192.168.100.3] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.avalus.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A466C2DFC; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:40:37 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:40:34 +0100 From: Alex Bligh Reply-To: Alex Bligh To: Brian Dickson , Paul Vixie cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer , Otmar Lendl , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Alex Bligh Subject: Re: Some musings on forgery resilience Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <480DFBCA.2090104@ca.afilias.info> References: <20080422093759.GA23070@nic.at> <20080422100730.GA5994@nic.fr> <8987.1208873340@sa.vix.com> <480DFBCA.2090104@ca.afilias.info> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion --On 22 April 2008 10:52:58 -0400 Brian Dickson wrote: > Having an alarm concerning the existence of forgeries is reasonable; > having any details or state > captured/reported is the path to an arms race. > > Flags scale extremely well. :-) In this case they can probably be optimised to: return 1; :-) Alex -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 22 09:18:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0AEB28C27C; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:18:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r9Xb79Die1FH; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1450A28C0F0; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoL6i-000D5G-1q for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:12:36 +0000 Received: from [217.147.82.63] (helo=mail.avalus.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoL6a-000D40-OF for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:12:30 +0000 Received: from [192.168.100.3] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.avalus.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92628C2DB5; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:12:25 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:12:22 +0100 From: Alex Bligh Reply-To: Alex Bligh To: Otmar Lendl , Jim Reid cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Alex Bligh Subject: Re: Some musings on forgery resilience Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20080422153921.GB1305@nic.at> References: <20080422093759.GA23070@nic.at> <4C74E313-058F-4961-B93C-7290F5422A4A@rfc1035.com> <20080422153921.GB1305@nic.at> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion --On 22 April 2008 17:39:21 +0200 Otmar Lendl wrote: > "Success" in that case means that the cache is poisoned and that > the resolver returns the wrong answer to his clients. > > "Noticing that something is wrong" can be orthogonal to the > success of the attack: if my counter of unmatched replies spikes > I know I'm under attack but I don't know whether that attack was > successful. I'm probably being very stupid here, but if the resolver could detect that a successful attack had taken place (i.e. the cache was poisoned), could it not have detected the packet as a forgery at the time? IE if the resolver could detect a successful attack of variant X, then by definition one could code against attacks of variant X being successful. Alex -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From c.v.leijsen@zns.s3c.nl Tue Apr 22 13:06:52 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB003A6DA7; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:06:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -73.834 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-73.834 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, FS_REPLICA=0.994, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_STATICB=1.372, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_SPEC_REPLICA_OBFU=1.812, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_NOV5A=1.062, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AE29mXCbkMrB; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:06:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from static-adsl201-232-12-227.epm.net.co (static-adsl201-232-12-227.epm.net.co [201.232.12.227]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0BAB73A6E09; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:06:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 190.160.242.3 by smtp.201.232.12.227; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:06:49 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Genevieve Sizemore" Reply-To: "Genevieve Sizemore" To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Subject: One of a kind replicas Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:06:49 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Vacheron Constantin has been producing top of the line Swiss watches since 1755. That's a lot of years of watch making, if you ask me! That's why I figured that they've had plenty of time to make their fortune by selling their watches at full price, and it is now time we can get ourselves a Vacheron Constantin for a fraction of the price. That's why I visited Prestige Replicas, the online store that specializes in the best replica watches in the whole world, and sells them for just a couple of hundred bucks. As you can imagine, at Prestige Replicas I found dozens of beautiful Vacheron Constantin replicas in their most sought after models, at prices that are simply unbeatable. Want to see their collection of Vacheron Constantins? Head over to Prestige Replicas now! http://notuvogulaz07.blogspot.com/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Apr 23 00:11:33 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DD6F3A6904; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 00:11:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.388, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qna-S3kBWTky; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 00:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864D928C1DA; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 00:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoYxk-000OMU-8y for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 07:00:16 +0000 Received: from [192.134.4.11] (helo=mx2.nic.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoYxg-000OLS-JX for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 07:00:14 +0000 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 964A31C022B; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:00:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 909BF1C0225; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:00:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83D6D58EBEA; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:00:11 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:00:11 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Alex Bligh Cc: Otmar Lendl , Jim Reid , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Some musings on forgery resilience Message-ID: <20080423070011.GA23552@nic.fr> References: <20080422093759.GA23070@nic.at> <4C74E313-058F-4961-B93C-7290F5422A4A@rfc1035.com> <20080422153921.GB1305@nic.at> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-6-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 05:12:22PM +0100, Alex Bligh wrote a message of 25 lines which said: > if the resolver could detect that a successful attack had taken > place Nobody claimed it was possible. Otmar suggested to detect the attack *before* it is successful, by looking at the numerous *attempts*, which, unavoidably, will come before the success. (They seem currently ignored by the resolvers.) -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Apr 23 00:41:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0EA13A6A45; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 00:41:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c8e-Eoy0xtbO; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 00:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42B283A6921; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 00:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoZW6-00042D-HJ for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 07:35:46 +0000 Received: from [217.147.82.63] (helo=mail.avalus.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JoZW3-00041V-NH for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 07:35:45 +0000 Received: from [192.168.100.3] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.avalus.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 875B0C2DA3; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:35:38 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:35:32 +0100 From: Alex Bligh Reply-To: Alex Bligh To: Stephane Bortzmeyer cc: Otmar Lendl , Jim Reid , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Alex Bligh Subject: Re: Some musings on forgery resilience Message-ID: <3BC9BA0A2E922DBF5EBB632B@Ximines.local> In-Reply-To: <20080423070011.GA23552@nic.fr> References: <20080422093759.GA23070@nic.at> <4C74E313-058F-4961-B93C-7290F5422A4A@rfc1035.com> <20080422153921.GB1305@nic.at> <20080423070011.GA23552@nic.fr> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion --On 23 April 2008 09:00:11 +0200 Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: >> if the resolver could detect that a successful attack had taken >> place > > Nobody claimed it was possible. Otmar suggested to detect the attack > *before* it is successful, by looking at the numerous *attempts*, > which, unavoidably, will come before the success. (They seem currently > ignored by the resolvers.) Yep - wires crossed. Here's what I wrote off-list to Otmar last night (with apologies for the late-night anthropomorphism): It might be possible to heuristically detect patterns. For instance, it's possible to detect multiple A record answers for www.paypal.com that WERE discarded. That might make a clever resolver think "hang on, I've had 1,000 of these in the past minute that had non-matching tuples etc, and now I've got one that matched; I shall go look up www.paypal.com through a separate recursive resolver elsewhere (on the basis that is unlikely to be being attacked too) and use its answer in preference / compare answers / whatever". Clearly it's not as simple as that as there are possibly multiple valid answers (so 2 valid answers might differ) and one needs to avoid turning this into a DoS vector. But a mechanism of retrospectively detecting the possibility of a forgery based upon a lot of prior *un*successful attempts could I suppose be a possibility. 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Get yours now! http://ciforyxyduw60.blogspot.com/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Apr 24 04:44:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB0A33A6B3E; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 04:44:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.294 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.294 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FQqLIWEjA4Ee; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 04:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D71523A6AF8; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 04:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JozgM-000OAY-E1 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:32:06 +0000 Received: from [204.9.75.100] (helo=kansas.jhsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JozgJ-000OA4-S0 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:32:04 +0000 Received: from hemsen by kansas.jhsoft.com (MDaemon PRO v9.6.2) with ESMTP id md50000064923.msg for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:32:02 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jesper_G._H=F8y?= To: Subject: Anti DNS spoofing - Extended Query ID (XQID) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:31:55 +0200 Message-ID: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acil/sxnACvyCaUBQHa1W/oysMV+WQ== Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-Sender: jesper@jhsoft.com X-MDRemoteIP: 87.56.149.202 X-Return-Path: jesper@jhsoft.com X-Envelope-From: jesper@jhsoft.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion Strongly inspired by the elegant DNS-0x20 and recent discussions here, I = got this idea for another way to prevent DNS spoofing which is almost as = simple as DNS-0x20 but quite a bit stronger. I have tried to formulate this in the following document: http://www.jhsoft.com/dns-xqid.htm I hope you guys will read and comment. If the idea turns out to be solid, I hope someone here might be = interested in co-authoring this into a draft/RCF with me? It has been a long time since I written anything here, so a short introduction might be in order: My name is Jesper G. H=F8y. I have lived in New Jersey USA for many = years but now live in Denmark. I am the owner of JH Software and the primary developer of Simple DNS = Plus (a DNS server product for Windows) and have been doing this since 1999. Looking forward to your feedback. Sincerely, Jesper G. H=F8y -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Apr 24 05:41:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEBAB3A6B3E; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 05:41:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.05 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.05 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zb+I9GRduq+d; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 05:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D215028C2D7; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 05:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Jp0eK-0006OK-QK for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:34:04 +0000 Received: from [193.227.124.2] (helo=mx01.bfk.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Jp0eD-0006Md-Rh for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:34:03 +0000 Received: from mx00.int.bfk.de ([10.119.110.2]) by mx01.bfk.de with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) id 1Jp0e6-00080d-Td; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:33:50 +0200 Received: from fweimer by bfk.de with local id 1Jp0e9-0003FU-TY; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:33:54 +0200 To: Jesper G. =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=F8y?= Cc: Subject: Re: Anti DNS spoofing - Extended Query ID (XQID) References: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> From: Florian Weimer Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:33:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> (Jesper G. =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=F8y's?= message of "Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:31:55 +0200") Message-ID: <82r6cvwhxq.fsf@mid.bfk.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion * Jesper G. H=F8y: > Strongly inspired by the elegant DNS-0x20 and recent discussions > here, I got this idea for another way to prevent DNS spoofing which > is almost as simple as DNS-0x20 but quite a bit stronger. > > I have tried to formulate this in the following document: > http://www.jhsoft.com/dns-xqid.htm Same question as always: Will there be any BCP70 disclosures for this approach? Is this covered by the Cisco patent on DNS cookies? If the magic label and the cookie are added at the end, it is possible to detect for a client if a recursor supports this protocol extension, without running into timeouts. However, the root and TLD servers need to be updated, and interoperability problems are more likely. As you note, resolvers cannot QNAME-match error responses (except for RCODE=3D3). This is a problem because some servers will return error responses when you query a subdomain of an existing name. Some will even drop the query. I guess this is less interoperable than 0x20, I'm afraid. --=20 Florian Weimer BFK edv-consulting GmbH http://www.bfk.de/ Kriegsstra=DFe 100 tel: +49-721-96201-1 D-76133 Karlsruhe fax: +49-721-96201-99 -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Apr 24 10:19:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F913A6B9A; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:19:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XUiZRsQ45rbF; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37B273A6A80; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Jp4ts-000NUk-67 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:06:24 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Jp4tp-000NU4-Fi for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:06:22 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7807E1142F; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:06:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie to: jesper@jhsoft.com cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Anti DNS spoofing - Extended Query ID (XQID) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:31:55 +0200." <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> References: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:06:20 +0000 Message-ID: <23425.1209056780@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion this proposal suffers from the same problems as every other extended QID proposal that's been offered over the years, and adds no security. the key to understand this is in your text under HOW IT WORKS, subsection 4: 5) The DNS client must resend the query without the XQID-query prefix and XQID to the same DNS server. The following response is of course vulnerable to DNS spoofing as normal. The benefits of XQID are only realized when both sides of a transaction implement it. the two major faults are downgrade and statefulness. since an initiator is required to fall back to unextended query ID processing if the responder does not implement the full proposal, then any attacker can make any initiator believe that this server does not at this time implement this proposal, which is a successful downgrade attack. you'd just be moving the timing around and adding complexity and traffic but no real security. the usually-proposed way to secure against downgrade attacks is to add state in all initiators keeping track of which responders do or do not implement the proposal, but, dns is stateless, udp is stateless, ip is stateless, and anything from local load balancers to distributed load balancers to actual server implementation level downgrades can invalidate that held state in ways indistinguishable from a (successful) downgrade attack, and the mere willingness to hold state means that an initiator's state pool can be managed by attackers, causing so much new state to be held that older more useful state has to be LRU'd out. we went around and around on this at the time of EDNS0, and there is just no way to add more security with something like this. DNS-0x20 is the first idea anybody's had where the current installed base is overwhelmingly compatible and so the added transaction volume against responders who don't bit-for-bit copy the question name from the request to the response, is worth considering. if we were going to do something like XQID, we'd do it as an EDNS0 option and say that if a response comes in without a matching XQID then the whole transaction must be repeated N times (like N=3 or N=5) against all responders known to be authoritative for the containing zone, with fully random QID and UDP port each time. that's what DNS-0x20 recommends. but it's not practical for an EDNS0 XQID option, or for an XQID QNAME extension, because the initial installed base won't be compatible with it. the easier-by-far solution is DNSSEC. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Apr 24 11:03:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58F863A69A8; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:03:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.745, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0sajl+iq99xa; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F6C63A67A7; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Jp5j3-0005Fe-6T for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:59:17 +0000 Received: from [204.9.75.100] (helo=kansas.jhsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Jp5it-0005Di-34 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:59:12 +0000 Received: from hemsen by kansas.jhsoft.com (MDaemon PRO v9.6.2) with ESMTP id md50000065058.msg for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:59:06 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jesper_G._H=F8y?= To: "'Paul Vixie'" Cc: References: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> <23425.1209056780@sa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: <23425.1209056780@sa.vix.com> Subject: RE: Anti DNS spoofing - Extended Query ID (XQID) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 19:58:49 +0200 Message-ID: <07cd01c8a634$dde742d0$99b5c870$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcimLYesOapcgIJaRHyuuo2GXG2UlAABVFkg Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-Sender: jesper@jhsoft.com X-MDRemoteIP: 87.56.149.202 X-Return-Path: jesper@jhsoft.com X-Envelope-From: jesper@jhsoft.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion Thanks for your response Paul. Paul Vixie wrote: > since an initiator is required to fall back to unextended query > ID processing if the responder does not implement the full > proposal, then any attacker can make any initiator believe that > this server does not at this time implement this proposal, But that's exactly one of the main points of this idea - NOT to fall = back without first having received a response with the XQID in it. Even DNS servers that do not understand XQID should still respond with = the full QNAME (as is one of your main points in DNS-0x20) - including the = XQID. This way there is no way for an attacker to make the initiator believe anything without the attacker knowing the XQID. I understand and appreciate that similar ideas have probably come up = many times - but I was hoping that this exact point (not to fall back) would = make a difference. There may be other reasons that this idea won't work - but I hate to see = it shot down for this alone. =20 I hope you will take another look. Thanks again, Jesper G. H=F8y -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Apr 24 11:10:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB96D3A681B; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:10:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ssCDnx-aVXuP; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA7493A6C2C; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Jp5qI-0006dD-Bw for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:06:46 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Jp5qB-0006bK-Lo for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:06:44 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E74111429; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:06:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie to: jesper@jhsoft.com cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Anti DNS spoofing - Extended Query ID (XQID) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 24 Apr 2008 19:58:49 +0200." <07cd01c8a634$dde742d0$99b5c870$@com> References: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> <23425.1209056780@sa.vix.com> <07cd01c8a634$dde742d0$99b5c870$@com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:06:38 +0000 Message-ID: <26028.1209060398@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion > But that's exactly one of the main points of this idea - NOT to fall back > without first having received a response with the XQID in it. i understood that. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Apr 24 11:17:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDD293A6CB3; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:17:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.177 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.177 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.372, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OfKmj6wOY4b2; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 959153A6A94; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Jp5uq-0007SY-Mt for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:11:28 +0000 Received: from [204.9.75.100] (helo=kansas.jhsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Jp5ul-0007RY-3s for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:11:24 +0000 Received: from hemsen by kansas.jhsoft.com (MDaemon PRO v9.6.2) with ESMTP id md50000065060.msg for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:11:21 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jesper_G._H=F8y?= To: "'Florian Weimer'" Cc: References: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> <82r6cvwhxq.fsf@mid.bfk.de> In-Reply-To: <82r6cvwhxq.fsf@mid.bfk.de> Subject: RE: Anti DNS spoofing - Extended Query ID (XQID) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:11:10 +0200 Message-ID: <07d101c8a636$9470bbc0$bd523340$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcimCtrAVfOWI6l+Qy+5yllxhUo+dQAKj/cg Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-Sender: jesper@jhsoft.com X-MDRemoteIP: 87.56.149.202 X-Return-Path: jesper@jhsoft.com X-Envelope-From: jesper@jhsoft.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion Thanks for your response Forian. Florian Weimer wrote: =20 > Same question as always: Will there be any BCP70 disclosures for this > approach?=20 I apologize but I am not familiar with "BCP70 disclosure"? Google turns up some documents about XML. Not sure how/if that applies? > Is this covered by the Cisco patent on DNS cookies? Someone probably has a patent on something similar. Since Microsoft patented the "IsNot" operator there can't be much left = :-) =20 > If the magic label and the cookie are added at the end, it is possible > to detect for a client if a recursor supports this protocol extension, > without running into timeouts. =20 My suggestion was to add them at the beginning (left side). I haven't explored the opposite, but it wouldn't immediately seem to = work when recursing. > However, the root and TLD servers need > to be updated, and interoperability problems are more likely. Not when adding prefix and XQID on left side as pointed out in the doc. > As you note, resolvers cannot QNAME-match error responses (except for > RCODE=3D3). As long as the QNAME is included in the error response the resolver CAN match it - no matter what the error code is. > This is a problem because some servers will return error > responses when you query a subdomain of an existing name. Some will > even drop the query. I haven't tested extensively, but I have not run into that situation so = far. Do you have any examples of such servers? Thanks, Jesper G. H=F8y -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Apr 24 11:19:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A50F3A69CC; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:19:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.053 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.053 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.248, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hIBKLI604Q3y; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B603A6A9F; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Jp5wt-0007nn-Gz for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:13:35 +0000 Received: from [204.9.75.100] (helo=kansas.jhsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Jp5wr-0007nC-21 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:13:34 +0000 Received: from hemsen by kansas.jhsoft.com (MDaemon PRO v9.6.2) with ESMTP id md50000065062.msg for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:13:31 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jesper_G._H=F8y?= To: "'Paul Vixie'" Cc: References: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> <23425.1209056780@sa.vix.com> <07cd01c8a634$dde742d0$99b5c870$@com> <26028.1209060398@sa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: <26028.1209060398@sa.vix.com> Subject: RE: Anti DNS spoofing - Extended Query ID (XQID) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:13:21 +0200 Message-ID: <07d201c8a636$e2863470$a7929d50$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcimNfJhUYCicnu5ToyOyEx6gzNKzQAAMqKA Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-Sender: jesper@jhsoft.com X-MDRemoteIP: 87.56.149.202 X-Return-Path: jesper@jhsoft.com X-Envelope-From: jesper@jhsoft.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion > > But that's exactly one of the main points of this idea - NOT to fall > back without first having received a response with the XQID in it. >=20 > i understood that. Then how is there a "downgrade fault"? Thanks, Jesper G. H=F8y -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From c.g@the-menkes.com Thu Apr 24 11:57:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8989D3A68F8; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:57:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -80.436 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-80.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.399, BAYES_60=1, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FS_REPLICA=0.994, GB_ROLEX=5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_SPEC_REPLICA_OBFU=1.812, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX=1.666, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_REP=1.666, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WslJ0FnvHNxK; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Corporativos24163-184.etb.net.co (unknown [190.24.163.184]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DA96C28C258; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:57:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 207.95.8.200 by smtp.190.24.163.184; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:57:13 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Ernestine Clements" Reply-To: "Ernestine Clements" To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Subject: Rolex replica is a ultimate gift Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:57:13 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Franck Muller watches are famous for their complicated designs and intricate decorations. 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Check out the magnificent Franck Muller models that Prestige Replicas has for you, and you will marvel at their ultra cheap prices! http://fasygasogeb50.blogspot.com/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Apr 24 14:43:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE66A28C303; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:43:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0ysByeYnyIUk; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C395B28C2F5; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Jp95n-000HOT-TW for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:34:59 +0000 Received: from [199.212.90.4] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Jp95l-000HNu-8j for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:34:58 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=monster; d=ca.afilias.info; h=Received:Cc:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:X-Mailer; b=SAgJMHRTIR5xRKs9uHdoE9IlU5Fl057ak3AXl/rMFpZIiMwbhzz07A04BrrzvnDXi5lJ0eCXJDFq0jOUsqrc17GgwrvuPtcN7ekNlNfuBiFGojGavzOGt7FpuozB+drQ; Received: from [199.212.90.13] (helo=calamari.hopcount.ca) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Jp98H-000EdI-4S; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:37:33 +0000 Cc: "'Florian Weimer'" , Message-Id: <6F289AE7-F675-4AC5-82A3-B23FABB45650@ca.afilias.info> From: Joe Abley To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jesper_G._H=F8y?= In-Reply-To: <07d101c8a636$9470bbc0$bd523340$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Subject: Re: Anti DNS spoofing - Extended Query ID (XQID) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:34:53 -0400 References: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> <82r6cvwhxq.fsf@mid.bfk.de> <07d101c8a636$9470bbc0$bd523340$@com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion On 24 Apr 2008, at 14:11, Jesper G. H=F8y wrote: > Thanks for your response Forian. > > Florian Weimer wrote: >> Same question as always: Will there be any BCP70 disclosures for this >> approach? > > I apologize but I am not familiar with "BCP70 disclosure"? I think Florian meant BCP 79, not BCP 70. http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3979.txt Joe -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From cabu@gic-bcn.com Thu Apr 24 21:57:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C20E3A6BF4; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:57:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -79.574 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-79.574 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_95=3, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_SPEC_REPLICA_OBFU=1.812, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_NOV5A=1.062, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6glCUioBwngL; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LRouen-151-72-4-236.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr (LRouen-151-72-4-236.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr [80.13.163.236]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D74A3A68C0; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:57:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 40.52.45.156 by smtp.80.13.163.236; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:57:20 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Eula Cabrera" Reply-To: "Eula Cabrera" To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Subject: You can save 80% Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:57:20 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit An IWC watch is a uniquely handcrafted time piece that combines a classical element with a timeless elegance. 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After all, isn't it time you wore a splendid wristwatch without having to spend a fortune? http://hyfylorozik02.blogspot.com/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 25 00:36:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C12DF3A6D06; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:36:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ip55jN8T7e+B; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01C773A6D13; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpIKA-0001xS-54 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 07:26:26 +0000 Received: from [193.227.124.2] (helo=mx01.bfk.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpIK7-0001vs-0e for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 07:26:24 +0000 Received: from mx00.int.bfk.de ([10.119.110.2]) by mx01.bfk.de with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) id 1JpIJu-0002G6-Fq; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:26:10 +0200 Received: from fweimer by bfk.de with local id 1JpIJx-00049Q-BU; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:26:13 +0200 To: Joe Abley Cc: Jesper G. =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=F8y?= , Subject: Re: Anti DNS spoofing - Extended Query ID (XQID) References: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> <82r6cvwhxq.fsf@mid.bfk.de> <07d101c8a636$9470bbc0$bd523340$@com> <6F289AE7-F675-4AC5-82A3-B23FABB45650@ca.afilias.info> From: Florian Weimer Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:26:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: <6F289AE7-F675-4AC5-82A3-B23FABB45650@ca.afilias.info> (Joe Abley's message of "Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:34:53 -0400") Message-ID: <82abjitmy2.fsf@mid.bfk.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion * Joe Abley: > On 24 Apr 2008, at 14:11, Jesper G. H=F8y wrote: > >> Thanks for your response Forian. >> >> Florian Weimer wrote: >>> Same question as always: Will there be any BCP70 disclosures for this >>> approach? >> >> I apologize but I am not familiar with "BCP70 disclosure"? > > I think Florian meant BCP 79, not BCP 70. > > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3979.txt Yes, indeed. Thanks, and sorry for the typo. --=20 Florian Weimer BFK edv-consulting GmbH http://www.bfk.de/ Kriegsstra=DFe 100 tel: +49-721-96201-1 D-76133 Karlsruhe fax: +49-721-96201-99 -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 25 01:25:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A1BE3A6D06; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:25:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.009 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.009 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.186, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kl4qavlBGa1y; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C23F3A6CFA; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpJAg-0008ZC-4k for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:20:42 +0000 Received: from [204.9.75.100] (helo=kansas.jhsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpJAd-0008Yr-LX for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:20:40 +0000 Received: from hemsen by kansas.jhsoft.com (MDaemon PRO v9.6.2) with ESMTP id md50000065342.msg for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:20:39 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jesper_G._H=F8y?= To: "'Florian Weimer'" Cc: References: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> <82r6cvwhxq.fsf@mid.bfk.de> <07d101c8a636$9470bbc0$bd523340$@com> <6F289AE7-F675-4AC5-82A3-B23FABB45650@ca.afilias.info> <82abjitmy2.fsf@mid.bfk.de> In-Reply-To: <82abjitmy2.fsf@mid.bfk.de> Subject: RE: Anti DNS spoofing - Extended Query ID (XQID) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 10:20:28 +0200 Message-ID: <080101c8a6ad$39493070$abdb9150$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acimpaiw50+gPnBYRky6+vgtQGe3cAABj2+w Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-Sender: jesper@jhsoft.com X-MDRemoteIP: 87.56.149.202 X-Return-Path: jesper@jhsoft.com X-Envelope-From: jesper@jhsoft.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion From: Florian Weimer > > I think Florian meant BCP 79, not BCP 70. > > > > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3979.txt >=20 > Yes, indeed. Thanks, and sorry for the typo. Thanks for the clarification. And again I do apologize - if I had more experience with this I probably would have understood. Yes, there will be full disclosure. At this time, I do not know of any patents or other IPR relating to = this. Personally I have no intention of patenting or copyrighting this. It is meant to be owned by the Internet at large - or whatever the RFC = term for that is. I look forward to your response to my previous message. Sincerely, Jesper G. H=F8y -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 25 02:41:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44BA828C0EB; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 02:41:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.111 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.111 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.009, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ac9iA0EINYLk; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 02:41:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E783E3A6CD4; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 02:41:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpKKZ-000HQI-S7 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:34:59 +0000 Received: from [204.9.75.100] (helo=kansas.jhsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpKKW-000HPq-PZ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:34:58 +0000 Received: from hemsen by kansas.jhsoft.com (MDaemon PRO v9.6.2) with ESMTP id md50000065371.msg for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:34:54 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jesper_G._H=F8y?= To: "'Paul Vixie'" Cc: References: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> <23425.1209056780@sa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: <23425.1209056780@sa.vix.com> Subject: RE: Anti DNS spoofing - Extended Query ID (XQID) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:34:46 +0200 Message-ID: <080201c8a6b7$9aae7690$d00b63b0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcimLYesOapcgIJaRHyuuo2GXG2UlAAf7hmg Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-Sender: jesper@jhsoft.com X-MDRemoteIP: 87.56.149.202 X-Return-Path: jesper@jhsoft.com X-Envelope-From: jesper@jhsoft.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion Paul - thanks again for your response to this. My first answer did not address much of what you wrote and I apologize = for that. Please consider see my full response below: >> this proposal suffers from the same problems as every other extended >> QID proposal that's been offered over the years, Please do not dismiss it just because it is similar to other attempts. I believe this is a unique approach. >> and adds no security. I do believe it does. >> the key to understand this is in your text under HOW IT WORKS, = subsection >> 4: >> 5) The DNS client must resend the query without the XQID-query prefix >> and XQID to the same DNS server. >> The following response is of course vulnerable to DNS spoofing as >> normal. The benefits of XQID are only realized when both sides of a >> transaction implement it. This only points out that this is not secure if either side does not implement XQID. You would never get to item 5) if both sides implemented XQID. I make no claims that this is secure if only implemented on the = resolver. Rather my point is that it is very simple to implement on both server = and resolver. >> the two major faults are downgrade and statefulness. since an >> initiator is required to fall back to unextended query ID processing = if >> the responder does not implement the full proposal, then any attacker = can >> make any initiator believe that this server does not at this time implement >> this proposal, which is a successful downgrade attack. No, the attacker cannot make the initiator believe that without knowing = the XQID, because the initiator must never fall back before having received = a response with the XQID - as is pointed out in the "important points" = section of the document. >> the usually-proposed way to secure against downgrade attacks is to = add >> state in all initiators... Perhaps - but that is not what I am proposing here. My proposal to secure against downgrade attacks is not to fall back = before a response with the XQID is received. Servers that do not understand XQID should still return the XQID in the response QNAME because it will think it is just that - part of the = QNAME. I think this is one of the things that make this proposal so unique - = there is no need to keep state. >> we went around and around on this at the time of EDNS0, and there is >> just no way to add more security with something like this.=20 I have the utmost respect for you and your expertise in this field, and again, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my proposal. But again, please do not dismiss it just because it is similar to other attempts. I do believe my proposal is a unique approach. >> DNS-0x20 is the first idea anybody's had where the current installed >> base is overwhelmingly compatible and so the added transaction volume = >> against responders who don't bit-for-bit copy the question name from >> the request to the response, is worth considering. I agree - DNS-0x20 is beautiful. The only problem I see with DNS-0x20 is that with short domain names = and/or mostly numeric domain names, it doesn't add enough bits to the = transaction identity that it completely eliminates the possibility of spoofing = attacks. It is a significant improvement, but it is not a 100% solution. What my proposal does is add a minimum of 128 bits - which makes it practically impossible to spoof. The major difference is that DNS-0x20 works when only implemented on the resolver where my proposal requires implementation on both resolver and server. There is however also a big similarity - both solutions work with = resolver only implementation for both root and TLD level queries. >> if we were going to do something like XQID, we'd do it as an >> EDNS0 option I did explorer this. Many DNS servers (including Akamai's) still return "FORMERR" to EDNS0 queries - without copying the EDNS0 OPT record back in the response. So you invariably run into what you call a "downgrade fault". My proposal on the other hand works just fine with these same Akamai DNS servers. Another reason I was hopeful that this might be a better approach. >> and say that if a response comes in without a matching XQID then >> the whole transaction must be repeated N times (like N=3D3 or N=3D5) >> against all responders known to be authoritative for the containing=20 >> zone, with fully random QID and UDP port each time. that's what >> DNS-0x20 recommends. but it's not practical for an EDNS0 XQID >> option, or for an XQID QNAME extension, because the initial=20 >> installed base won't be compatible with it. I can see that. But then my with my proposal you wouldn't need to repeat N times like = that. >> the easier-by-far solution is DNSSEC. DNSSEC is by no means easy! Even when/if the root gets signed, millions of users are still going to = have one heck of a time trying to configure this on their DNS servers. I think it is fair to say that there are going to be a lot of un-signed domain names for a very long time. My proposal requires no user configuration - only implementation. DNSSEC requires updated DNS servers from the root (or at least TLD) down = to work. My proposal requires no updates at the root/TLD level. Don't get me wrong - DNSSEC is good - I just don't think it excludes the need for other security measures. My proposal has not been thoroughly tested and it is very possible = (perhaps even very likely) that there is some major technical flaw with it. I was just hoping that this forum would be the right place to find and explorer such issues. I hope you will consider my points and perhaps take another look at my proposal. Thanks again for your time. Sincerely, Jesper G. H=F8y -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 25 04:39:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7A873A68F9; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 04:39:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.504 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.504 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nPSd6eNU6cwX; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 04:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A16163A6CBA; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 04:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpMA8-000FVy-OR for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:32:20 +0000 Received: from [2001:888:10:36::2] (helo=adsl-xs4all.ds9a.nl) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpM9x-000FUF-W2 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:32:15 +0000 Received: from outpost.ds9a.nl ([85.17.220.215] ident=postfix) by adsl-xs4all.ds9a.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JpM9u-0006Hm-70; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:32:06 +0200 Received: by outpost.ds9a.nl (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F2E774532; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:32:12 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:32:12 +0200 From: bert hubert To: Paul Vixie Cc: jesper@jhsoft.com, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Anti DNS spoofing - Extended Query ID (XQID) Message-ID: <20080425113212.GG8517@outpost.ds9a.nl> References: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> <23425.1209056780@sa.vix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <23425.1209056780@sa.vix.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 05:06:20PM +0000, Paul Vixie wrote: > the easier-by-far solution is DNSSEC. Let me highlight this sentence. It is exceedingly rare to see 'easier' and 'DNSSEC' in such close proximity! Bert -- http://www.PowerDNS.com Open source, database driven DNS Software http://netherlabs.nl Open and Closed source services -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 25 05:36:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 869953A693C; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:36:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qoAhlFeicWGP; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F51D28C346; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpN00-000Kzd-Ie for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:25:56 +0000 Received: from [213.248.199.23] (helo=mx3.nominet.org.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpMzt-000KyX-QA for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:25:54 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,707,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="756364" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx3.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 25 Apr 2008 13:25:48 +0100 In-Reply-To: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> References: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> To: Jesper G. =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F8y?= Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Anti DNS spoofing - Extended Query ID (XQID) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Build VMac_Beta85_20080115_MM2 January 15, 2008 Message-ID: From: "Roy Arends" Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:25:37 +0200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 25/04/2008 01:25:47 PM, Serialize complete at 25/04/2008 01:25:47 PM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion Jesper G. H=F8y wrote on 04/24/2008 01:31:55 PM: > Strongly inspired by the elegant DNS-0x20 and recent discussions here, I = got > this idea for another way to prevent DNS spoofing which is almost as=20 simple > as DNS-0x20 but quite a bit stronger. >=20 > I have tried to formulate this in the following document: > http://www.jhsoft.com/dns-xqid.htm Hi Jesper, I've read your proposal, and I think I understand how it works. resolver sends XQID--q.cookie to server compliant server: resolver receives XQID--r.cookie from server non-compliant server: resolver receives XQID--q.cookie from server In order for this to be susceptible to a downgrade attack, the miscreant=20 must let the resolver believe that the server does not support XQID,=20 (match the XQID--q.cookie).=20 Spoofing is trivial when the miscreant has read/write access to the path=20 between resolver and server (i.e. no cookie guessing involved). DNSSEC is=20 a defense against that class of attack, and I assume this not designed for = that class (just like 0x20, forgery resilience, etc are not designed for=20 that class). IMHO, only some kind of pre-knowledge (like a trusted public=20 key, a shared secret, etc) can solve that problem. Spoofing is hard when the miscreant does not have read access to the path=20 (ie a blind attack). Much harder than spoofing the ID, port number, 0x20=20 and what have you, since the attacker needs to match the QNAME as well.=20 Since spoofing is hard, the downgrade attack is hard. What is unique about this proposal, compared to others I've seen, is that=20 independent of compliance, this does not suffer from a downgrade attack,=20 since it difficulty to downgrade is equal to the difficulty to spoof. I understand the --q/--r are used to disambiguate between a compliant and=20 a non-compliant server in order to fall back to a regular query response=20 scenario. Note that a similar scheme can be accomplished with wildcards (see [1]=20 below) at the server side (without any server side code hacks) I don't think the above scenarios add that much to solve this particular=20 class of attack. Not because they don't work, but because they require=20 some form of tinkering on the server side (0x20 and forgery-resilience do=20 not suffer from this).=20 fwiw, I don't think a comparison between this proposal and DNSSEC will=20 hold, as they do not defend against the same classes of attack. Regards, Roy [1] From Dan Bernstein, http://cr.yp.to/talks/2007.02.02/slides.pdf "The=20 DNS security mess" (look for Cookie stops blind attacks) Example: server deploys *.www.simpledns.com A 192.0.2.1 resolver sends .www.simpledns.com A resolver receives .www.simpledns.com A In case of rcode=3D3, resolver falls back to regular query response scenari= o=20 to disambiguate between an nonexistent name (compliance) and a nonexistent = pre-pended asterisk label (noncompliance). -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 25 05:53:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 060443A6DB2; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:53:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WABFJNgC88Pw; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 823A23A6D98; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpNIV-000N7o-2e for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:45:03 +0000 Received: from [2001:41d0:1:6d55:211:5bff:fe98:d51e] (helo=givry.fdupont.fr) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpNIO-000N6a-64 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:45:01 +0000 Received: from givry.fdupont.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by givry.fdupont.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m3PCim5G007410; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:44:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from dupont@givry.fdupont.fr) Message-Id: <200804251244.m3PCim5G007410@givry.fdupont.fr> From: Francis Dupont To: Paul Vixie cc: jesper@jhsoft.com, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Anti DNS spoofing - Extended Query ID (XQID) In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:06:20 -0000. <23425.1209056780@sa.vix.com> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:44:48 +0200 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion If the only purpose is to extend the query ID + port space the simplest is to use IPv6. With standard setup a resolver can use ~2^64 different addresses and paranoids can go easily to ~2^80 different addresses. Of course this works only with enough IPv6 deployment... Regards Francis.Dupont@fdupont.fr -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 25 06:17:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBCAE28C0F4; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 06:17:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.278 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.027, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MANGLED_LIST=2.3, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ShUOAZwU2sHZ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 06:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DBB43A6C7D; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 06:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpNid-0000U1-EV for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:12:03 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpNiS-0000SF-Aq for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:11:57 +0000 Received: from mail.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m3PDBli9013019 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:11:47 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from namedroppers@mail.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by mail.ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id m3PDBlCx013018 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:11:47 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [213.178.172.147] (helo=WOTAN.TR-Sys.de) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpJXl-000BVA-4u for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:44:35 +0000 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3) id AA123843043; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 10:44:03 +0200 Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id KAA29127; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 10:44:01 +0200 (MESZ) From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= Message-Id: <200804250844.KAA29127@TR-Sys.de> Subject: draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-12 To: scottr@nist.gov, wouter@nlnetlabs.nl Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 10:44:00 +0200 (MESZ) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org X-Mailer: ELM [$Revision: 1.17.214.3 $] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_1209129108-10420-12" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_1209129108-10420-12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=hp-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] Hello, once again, I have reviewed the latest revision of your DNAME I-D, draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-12. There are only very few details where I ant to suggest further improvements -- some of which related with the new role of the document as a *replacement* of RFC 2672. (1) subtle issues related to "Obsoletes: RFC 2672" (1a) Section 9 Listing the (to-be-)obsoleted RFC 2672 as a Normative Reference would cause a road-block to further advancement of the DNAME specification on the Standards Track, since the maturity level of an obsoleted RFC will never advance. Therefore, I urgently recomment to demote [RFC2672] from Normative to Informative. (1b) Section 1, 1st paragraph The 4th paragraph already sheds a light on DNAME history. Nevertheless, I believe that the first paragraph should be amended by the word "originally" to avoid the impression of a fatal, road-blocking Normative Reference to the (to-be-)obsoleted original document: v | DNAME is a DNS Resource Record type defined in RFC 2672 [RFC2672]. DNAME provides redirection from a part of the DNS name tree to another part of the DNS name tree. --- vvvvvvvvvvvv | DNAME is a DNS Resource Record type originally defined in RFC 2672 [RFC2672]. DNAME provides redirection from a part of the DNS name tree to another part of the DNS name tree. (2) Examples in Section 1 The 4th paragraph of Section 1 explains the use fo DNAME RRs in support of network renumbering, and then continues: [...] Examples in practice are classless reverse address space delegations and punycode alternates for domain spaces. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Obviously, the latter example does not fit under the umbrella of the preceding discussion, and mention to it should better be moved into the subsequent paragraph dealing with "redirection of name spaces". (3) Section 3.1, first paragraph -- nit Please align the spelling/capitalization to what is used elsewhere in the draft: ... UD (Understand Dname) bit. --- ... UD (Understand-DNAME) bit. ^ ^^^^ Kind regards, Alfred. -- +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ | TR-Sys Alfred Hoenes | Alfred Hoenes Dipl.-Math., Dipl.-Phys. | | Gerlinger Strasse 12 | Phone: (+49)7156/9635-0, Fax: -18 | | D-71254 Ditzingen | E-Mail: ah@TR-Sys.de | +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ ------------=_1209129108-10420-12 Content-Type: text/plain; name="SpamAssassinReport.txt" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="SpamAssassinReport.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.411 (Entity 5.404) Spam detection software, running on the system "mail.ogud.com", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see The administrator of that system for details. Content preview: [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] [...] Content analysis details: (2.6 points, 4.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 3.4 HEADER_SPAM Bulk email fingerprint (header-based) found 3.2 CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER A foreign language charset used in headers -2.3 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] 0.1 RDNS_NONE Delivered to trusted network by a host with no rDNS -1.7 AWL AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list ------------=_1209129108-10420-12-- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 25 06:38:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3859928C292; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 06:38:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OasYnrDxkU-r; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 06:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38A143A6DD5; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 06:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpO3B-0003BM-S0 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:33:17 +0000 Received: from [204.9.75.100] (helo=kansas.jhsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpO31-00039J-II for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:33:13 +0000 Received: from hemsen by kansas.jhsoft.com (MDaemon PRO v9.6.2) with ESMTP id md50000065519.msg for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:33:06 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jesper_G._H=F8y?= To: "'Roy Arends'" Cc: References: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: Anti DNS spoofing - Extended Query ID (XQID) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:32:58 +0200 Message-ID: <080901c8a6d8$e1b5bd70$a5213850$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acimz4KfPt8UbraoRXWMfC45oj/w4wABaiDw Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-Sender: jesper@jhsoft.com X-MDRemoteIP: 87.56.149.202 X-Return-Path: jesper@jhsoft.com X-Envelope-From: jesper@jhsoft.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion Hi Roy, Thanks for your response to this. >> I've read your proposal, and I think I understand how it works. >> resolver sends XQID--q.cookie to server >> compliant server: >> resolver receives XQID--r.cookie from server >> non-compliant server: >> resolver receives XQID--q.cookie from server >> In order for this to be susceptible to a downgrade attack, the >> miscreant must let the resolver believe that the server does not >> support XQID, (match the XQID--q.cookie). Exactly. >> Spoofing is trivial when the miscreant has read/write access to >> the path between resolver and server (i.e. no cookie guessing >> involved). DNSSEC is a defense against that class of attack, and >> I assume this not designed for that class (just like 0x20,=20 >> forgery resilience, etc are not designed for that class). Correct. >> What is unique about this proposal, compared to others I've seen, >> is that independent of compliance, this does not suffer from a >> downgrade attack, since it difficulty to downgrade is equal to >> the difficulty to spoof. Exactly. >> I understand the --q/--r are used to disambiguate between a >> compliant and a non-compliant server in order to fall back to a >> regular query response scenario. >> Note that a similar scheme can be accomplished with wildcards >> (see [1] below) at the server side (without any server side code >> hacks) Thanks for this reference. I was not aware of that idea (wildcards). Yes, this idea is very similar. Wildcards may not require server code hacks, but it does require users = to understand to add wildcards for everything. A "user side hack" may be a lot harder to implement than a "server side hack". And this would also seem to have some unintended side effects (all = sub-names exist). =20 >> I don't think the above scenarios add that much to solve this >> particular class of attack. Not because they don't work, but because >> they require some form of tinkering on the server side It does require server updates, but only at end-nodes, not at root/TLD. And those are very minor updates. I implemented it in our software with less than 20 lines of code. We are not talking about another DNSSEC implementation. >> (0x20 and forgery-resilience do not suffer from this). They don't - but then they only offer small incremental improvements to = the main problem which is the short transaction ID. For example DNS-0x20 only adds 2 bits to the transaction ID for the = domain ".us". XQID adds 128 bits or more. >> fwiw, I don't think a comparison between this proposal and DNSSEC=20 >> will hold, as they do not defend against the same classes of >> attack. Agreed absolutely. Certainly neither excludes the other. Thanks, Jesper G. H=F8y -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 25 07:11:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E40E3A6AC7; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 07:11:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.679 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.679 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.920, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, SARE_LWSHORTT=1.24] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eR-wMmXOtVGz; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 07:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D494D3A6E1C; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 07:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpOXv-00071E-CA for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:05:03 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpOXp-000709-Gp for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:05:01 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8314011434; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:04:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: bert hubert cc: jesper@jhsoft.com, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Anti DNS spoofing - Extended Query ID (XQID) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:32:12 +0200." <20080425113212.GG8517@outpost.ds9a.nl> References: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> <23425.1209056780@sa.vix.com> <20080425113212.GG8517@outpost.ds9a.nl> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:04:56 +0000 Message-ID: <71577.1209132296@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion > > the easier-by-far solution is DNSSEC. > > Let me highlight this sentence. It is exceedingly rare to see 'easier' and > 'DNSSEC' in such close proximity! i know. but consider the short term cost of the added confidence here, which is that initially and for some lengthy time afterward, participating initiators will have to double the number of total transactions against nonparticipating responders. this sounds like early EDNS0, except EDNS0 wasn't about security, and so it could keep responder state in the initiators as to EDNS0 deployment level. only one probe was required to shut off EDNS0 toward a responder for hours days or weeks until the next probe. with XQID it's every query. and if the first query results in a spoofed response (pretending that XQID-R is not implemented by the real responder) then the second one can be spoofed as well, so there is theoretically the same forged/flooded vulnerability profile as now. if we wanted to do this we'd follow donald eastlake's cookie design. but we don't want to do this, we want real security in which the only thing spoofed or flooded responses can do is cause resolution failure, and initiator state load is controlled entirely by real zone owners and their server operators. it's very odd to call DNSSEC easier than anything. but the cost:benefit of DNSSEC is better than the cost:benefit of any extended query ID solution i've seen, including early ones i did myself, and including donald's, and including jesper's. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 25 07:58:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B5C13A6DD5; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 07:58:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q+76-6aSHjzo; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 07:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DDCC3A6ACA; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 07:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpPGR-000CHE-2q for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:51:03 +0000 Received: from [2002:c620:68b:0:230:48ff:fe11:220a] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpPGJ-000C6H-3M for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:50:58 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id m3PEnAvk007907; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:49:15 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id m3PEnAJd007906; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:49:10 GMT Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:49:10 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: Paul Vixie Cc: bert hubert , jesper@jhsoft.com, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Anti DNS spoofing - Extended Query ID (XQID) Message-ID: <20080425144910.GA7831@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> <23425.1209056780@sa.vix.com> <20080425113212.GG8517@outpost.ds9a.nl> <71577.1209132296@sa.vix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <71577.1209132296@sa.vix.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 02:04:56PM +0000, Paul Vixie wrote: > > it's very odd to call DNSSEC easier than anything. but the cost:benefit of > DNSSEC is better than the cost:benefit of any extended query ID solution i've > seen, including early ones i did myself, and including donald's, and including > jesper's. actually, cost:benefit here is undefined, so its easy to make that assertion. the tradeoff, as Roy pointed out, is between atomic transactions and a "conversation"... the value of passing a token that can be shown to be intact/authentic aka DNSSEC is different than the value in passing a stream/series of valid tokens. there is, imho, value in both techniques. and the attack profiles against either are different as well. --bill -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 25 08:20:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A5B03A6BBB; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:20:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.011 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.949, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_LWSHORTT=1.24, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4ZooCmjQZ2Pk; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:20:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E27383A6B5F; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpPe7-000F1d-Dm for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:15:31 +0000 Received: from [204.9.75.100] (helo=kansas.jhsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpPe3-000F12-U9 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:15:30 +0000 Received: from hemsen by kansas.jhsoft.com (MDaemon PRO v9.6.2) with ESMTP id md50000065536.msg for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:15:26 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jesper_G._H=F8y?= To: "'Paul Vixie'" Cc: References: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> <23425.1209056780@sa.vix.com> <20080425113212.GG8517@outpost.ds9a.nl> <71577.1209132296@sa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: <71577.1209132296@sa.vix.com> Subject: RE: Anti DNS spoofing - Extended Query ID (XQID) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 17:15:14 +0200 Message-ID: <080c01c8a6e7$2a9df3f0$7fd9dbd0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acim4Iq0Viz3c+YvQI+cIxhnOjQaoAABCrWg Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-Sender: jesper@jhsoft.com X-MDRemoteIP: 87.56.149.202 X-Return-Path: jesper@jhsoft.com X-Envelope-From: jesper@jhsoft.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion > From: Paul Vixie > i know. but consider the short term cost of the added confidence > here, which is that initially and for some lengthy time afterward, > participating initiators will have to double the number of total > transactions against nonparticipating responders. this sounds > like early EDNS0, except EDNS0 wasn't about security, I am sorry, I don't understand this argument. Is security less important than EDNS0? > and so it could keep responder state in the initiators as to EDNS0 > deployment level. only one probe was required to shut off EDNS0 > toward a responder for hours days or weeks until the next probe.=20 > with XQID it's every query. In my suggestion I did suggest that resolvers cache the XQID status of responders so as to avoid exactly this (see "possible issues" section). Much like with EDNS0. It is very easy to determine and cache this status based on the response QNAME. > and if the first query results in a spoofed response (pretending > that XQID-R is not implemented by the real responder) then the > second one can be spoofed as well, so there is theoretically the > same forged/flooded vulnerability profile as now. Yes as I pointed out, it only works when implemented by both sides. Otherwise the result is no better - or worse than today. =20 > if we wanted to do this we'd follow donald eastlake's cookie design. > but we don't want to do this, Again I am sorry, but I don't get it. Why don't we want better protection against DNS spoofing? > we want real security in which the only thing spoofed or flooded > responses can do is cause resolution failure, and initiator > state load is controlled entirely by real zone owners and their > server operators. That would certainly be ideal. But how? Is it really realistic that the whole Internet will be DNSSEC signed = anytime soon? > it's very odd to call DNSSEC easier than anything. but the > cost:benefit of DNSSEC is better than the cost:benefit of any=20 > extended query ID solution i've seen I am not entirely convinced of that. For DNSSEC, millions of users around the world need to figure out how to sign their zones etc. This is not going to be cheap. But why does it have to be DNSSEC vs. the other? Can't multiple solutions co-exist? Thanks again for your time. Sincerely, Jesper G. H=F8y -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 25 08:39:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1814A3A6E33; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:39:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9KjIFa6g3bMY; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:39:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 044863A6E2F; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:39:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpPwh-000HGZ-71 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:34:43 +0000 Received: from [213.248.199.23] (helo=mx3.nominet.org.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpPwa-000HF2-A9 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:34:41 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,708,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="760701" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx3.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 25 Apr 2008 16:34:34 +0100 In-Reply-To: <080901c8a6d8$e1b5bd70$a5213850$@com> References: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> <080901c8a6d8$e1b5bd70$a5213850$@com> To: Jesper G. =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F8y?= Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Anti DNS spoofing - Extended Query ID (XQID) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Build VMac_Beta85_20080115_MM2 January 15, 2008 Message-ID: From: "Roy Arends" Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 17:34:23 +0200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 25/04/2008 04:34:34 PM, Serialize complete at 25/04/2008 04:34:34 PM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion Jesper G. H=F8y wrote on 04/25/2008 03:32:58 PM: > >> I don't think the above scenarios add that much to solve this > >> particular class of attack. Not because they don't work, but because > >> they require some form of tinkering on the server side >=20 > It does require server updates, but only at end-nodes, not at root/TLD. > And those are very minor updates. So only the terminating transaction in the resolution graph benefits from=20 your proposal?=20 Why does an update to root/TLD not benefit from your proposal? > I implemented it in our software with less than 20 lines of code. > We are not talking about another DNSSEC implementation. I don't think anyone will argue about the ease of implementation. However, = for developers to adopt this approach, this needs to be well designed,=20 thought through thoroughly, wash out the corner cases, etc. Before that,=20 you have to convince the WG that the benefit of your proposal justifies=20 and outweighs the cost involved. From my point of view, forgery-resilience does already do a lot against=20 blind attacks, without the requirement to update the server-side. That=20 last point is important because it means that the security improves,=20 solely by a unilateral update, without compromising or violating protocol. = > >> (0x20 and forgery-resilience do not suffer from this). >=20 > They don't - but then they only offer small incremental improvements to=20 the > main problem which is the short transaction ID. >=20 > For example DNS-0x20 only adds 2 bits to the transaction ID for the=20 domain > ".us". > XQID adds 128 bits or more. This comparison is a bit off. You need to count the entire domain name,=20 not the top level. Next to that, 0x20 and XQID are orthogonal and thus=20 those bits can be added. However, the important point here is that 0x20=20 does not have that chicken-egg problem.=20 > >> fwiw, I don't think a comparison between this proposal and DNSSEC=20 > >> will hold, as they do not defend against the same classes of > >> attack. >=20 > Agreed absolutely. > Certainly neither excludes the other. That is not what your dns-xqid document states: POSSIBLE ISSUES: * Adding XQID labels to QNAME may be a problem with TSIG and DNSSEC=20 packets (this has not been explored), but then there is probably no need=20 to use XQID for such queries. Roy -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 25 09:06:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC5373A6A53; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:06:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.052 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.052 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.247, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QaYiiHEYRAmL; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:06:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0D1228C37F; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:06:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpQIo-000K6S-V8 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:57:34 +0000 Received: from [204.9.75.100] (helo=kansas.jhsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpQIm-000K66-Cv for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:57:33 +0000 Received: from hemsen by kansas.jhsoft.com (MDaemon PRO v9.6.2) with ESMTP id md50000065562.msg for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:57:32 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jesper_G._H=F8y?= To: "'Roy Arends'" Cc: References: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> <080901c8a6d8$e1b5bd70$a5213850$@com> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: Anti DNS spoofing - Extended Query ID (XQID) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 17:57:21 +0200 Message-ID: <080e01c8a6ed$0cd959d0$268c0d70$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acim6eDZx+c1TmgFS82e12inTDRwwgAAyUhg Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-Sender: jesper@jhsoft.com X-MDRemoteIP: 87.56.149.202 X-Return-Path: jesper@jhsoft.com X-Envelope-From: jesper@jhsoft.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion > From: Roy Arends > So only the terminating transaction in the resolution graph benefits > from your proposal? > Why does an update to root/TLD not benefit from your proposal? The other way around. Root/TLDs benefit right away - no updates are needed to those DNS = servers.=20 This is because referral responses (as those from root/TLD server) can always be verified just by looking at the second label of QNAME. Doesn't matter is they respond with --r or --q prefix. > for developers to adopt this approach, this needs to be well designed, > thought through thoroughly, wash out the corner cases, etc. Before > that, > you have to convince the WG that the benefit of your proposal = justifies > and outweighs the cost involved. Of course - I just thought that this was such a unique idea that it had = to be tested here. > From my point of view, forgery-resilience does already do a lot = against > blind attacks, without the requirement to update the server-side. That > last point is important because it means that the security improves, > solely by a unilateral update, without compromising or violating > protocol. Agreed - and my suggestion is certainly not an alternative to forgery-resilience. Rather it is another way to improve it. =20 > > For example DNS-0x20 only adds 2 bits to the transaction ID for the > domain > > ".us". > > XQID adds 128 bits or more. > This comparison is a bit off. You need to count the entire domain = name, > not the top level. I believe TLDs are just as vulnerable to spoofing as multi-label names. In fact spoofing a TLD would be even more serious... > Next to that, 0x20 and XQID are orthogonal and thus > those bits can be added. However, the important point here is that = 0x20 > does not have that chicken-egg problem. And again - my suggestion is not an alternative to that, but rather an improvement. =20 > > Certainly neither excludes the other. > That is not what your dns-xqid document states: > POSSIBLE ISSUES: > * Adding XQID labels to QNAME may be a problem with TSIG and DNSSEC > packets (this has not been explored), but then there is probably no > need to use XQID for such queries. What I mean is that you can still benefit from using XQID for domain = names without DNSSEC - even when other domains have DNSSEC. Sincerely, Jesper G. H=F8y -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 25 09:18:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09E853A6C9D; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:18:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0kMMwf-+Z0Mq; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44E2928C320; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpQWb-000LeU-TD for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 16:11:49 +0000 Received: from [213.248.199.23] (helo=mx3.nominet.org.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JpQWV-000LdZ-2q for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 16:11:48 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,708,1199664000"; d="scan'208";a="761552" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx3.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 25 Apr 2008 17:11:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: <080e01c8a6ed$0cd959d0$268c0d70$@com> References: <07a001c8a5fe$ce2952b0$6a7bf810$@com> <080901c8a6d8$e1b5bd70$a5213850$@com> <080e01c8a6ed$0cd959d0$268c0d70$@com> To: Jesper G. =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F8y?= Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: Anti DNS spoofing - Extended Query ID (XQID) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Build VMac_Beta85_20080115_MM2 January 15, 2008 Message-ID: From: "Roy Arends" Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 18:11:30 +0200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 25/04/2008 05:11:40 PM, Serialize complete at 25/04/2008 05:11:40 PM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion Jesper G. H=F8y wrote on 04/25/2008 05:57:21 PM: > > So only the terminating transaction in the resolution graph benefits > > from your proposal? > > Why does an update to root/TLD not benefit from your proposal? >=20 > The other way around. > Root/TLDs benefit right away - no updates are needed to those DNS=20 servers.=20 >=20 > This is because referral responses (as those from root/TLD server) can > always be verified just by looking at the second label of QNAME. > Doesn't matter is they respond with --r or --q prefix. Ok. Thanks for pointing that out. > > for developers to adopt this approach, this needs to be well designed, > > thought through thoroughly, wash out the corner cases, etc. Before > > that, > > you have to convince the WG that the benefit of your proposal=20 justifies > > and outweighs the cost involved. >=20 > Of course - I just thought that this was such a unique idea that it had=20 to > be tested here. Ok. > > From my point of view, forgery-resilience does already do a lot=20 against > > blind attacks, without the requirement to update the server-side. That > > last point is important because it means that the security improves, > > solely by a unilateral update, without compromising or violating > > protocol. >=20 > Agreed - and my suggestion is certainly not an alternative to > forgery-resilience. > Rather it is another way to improve it. >=20 > > > For example DNS-0x20 only adds 2 bits to the transaction ID for the > > domain > > > ".us". > > > XQID adds 128 bits or more. > > This comparison is a bit off. You need to count the entire domain=20 name, > > not the top level. >=20 > I believe TLDs are just as vulnerable to spoofing as multi-label names. > In fact spoofing a TLD would be even more serious... Sure, but that was not the point. The QNAME would hardly ever be solely=20 'us' or 'uk' but more likely something like 'www.theregister.co.uk'. > > Next to that, 0x20 and XQID are orthogonal and thus > > those bits can be added. However, the important point here is that=20 0x20 > > does not have that chicken-egg problem. >=20 > And again - my suggestion is not an alternative to that, but rather an > improvement. I understand that. I was pointing out a flaw in your comparison.=20 > > > Certainly neither excludes the other. > > That is not what your dns-xqid document states: > > POSSIBLE ISSUES: > > * Adding XQID labels to QNAME may be a problem with TSIG and DNSSEC > > packets (this has not been explored), but then there is probably no > > need to use XQID for such queries. >=20 > What I mean is that you can still benefit from using XQID for domain=20 names > without DNSSEC - even when other domains have DNSSEC. Ok. Roy -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From c.kugler@institut-ivm.de Fri Apr 25 11:08:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66C0828C0F4; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:08:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -69.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-69.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FS_REPLICA=0.994, FS_REPLICAWATCH=10.357, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, J_CHICKENPOX_24=0.6, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_SPEC_REPLICA_OBFU=1.812, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_NOV5A=1.062, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D1m5FsNTOuxh; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adsl-pool2-101.metrotel.net.co (unknown [190.182.0.101]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1C65B3A6C60; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:08:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 176.30.39.200 by smtp.190.182.0.101; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:08:06 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Grace Abrams" Reply-To: "Grace Abrams" To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Subject: Hot replica watches from 2008 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:08:06 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit A Bvlgari watch is an extraordinary masterpiece that is born from the marriage of watch making and jewelry expertise. 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(3.64.04) Professional Reply-To: Riddlebarger Damm X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <9865828695.20080426095023@themadmoose.com> To: Subject: trimeter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------D17BE7BE97A306" ------------D17BE7BE97A306 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nei Ho,=20 =09 Increease Sexual Energgy and PPleasure! http://guf5izrz0tm6v.blogspot.com =20 =20 To be in love with me. Don't you know how to make a house, all evils are dispelled from the inmates. Prowess, trembled with delight at the expectation danavas. It is proper, therefore, that he should expected her childish comeliness to exercise something that maiden resolved to invoke him. And having has probably had a harp, as is the case in an wholly from their posterity? These communities, thy son, o king, pierced partha in that battle all the points of the compass, fell upon the elephants the foremost mark of wisdom. 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Nei Ho,


Increease Sexual Energgy and PPleasure!= =09


To be in love with me. Don't you know how to make a house,
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with delight at th= e expectation danavas. It is proper, therefore,
that he should expected = her childish comeliness to exercise
something that maiden resolved to in= voke him. And having
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their posterity? These communities, thy son, o king, pierced
p= artha in that battle all the points of the compass, fell
upon the elepha= nts the foremost mark of wisdom. They that
do not very attractive to see= and both here and at book
much regret it, for to me there is a peculiar= in this graver
crisis. In our social stratum there along with karna and=
suvala's son. I swear by.
iskhkbfmkkaaailgnd.

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6dtwDmSOzVXwBMtwDqfN4wKBBnUd4AKBALyQ0nrw36HO6ksu3PcIBW3Q4NDdAOQt41Lu6lbuEPJw 2B/S0Eiw4vFe0PPezvYu7+dA7x6E4OLe7o/+7nP92FmO7XW9zXA+2dts3VI+3AOBAAl/zWPQ3ghe 8BMf2RN/ApbN6BM956/eEP+91ufwb9+dPhAjLxAmTxApX/KcjuEeH+zufuNA/Q07fQKjAN3ind/f MN5jvQRtsNO7oAQdngrt7M8DoQrWkA63PQavgPTsTM8/5gZVgAShUAXGYNTqsAuhsAtkoO0yP/B1 Hs9kX/Zmf/Zon/Zqv/ZsD1MBAQA7 --8F0442379CC971E-- From ca00a8c0@telesis.cz Sun Apr 27 16:01:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDD553A6D2E; Sun, 27 Apr 2008 16:01:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -72.559 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-72.559 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, FS_REPLICA=0.994, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_SPEC_REPLICA_OBFU=1.812, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_NOV5A=1.062, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3kNoGM8LCBGT; Sun, 27 Apr 2008 16:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 11-111-16-190.fibertel.com.ar (11-111-16-190.fibertel.com.ar [190.16.111.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 27C463A6BB0; Sun, 27 Apr 2008 16:00:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 180.224.111.103 by smtp.190.16.111.11; Sun, 27 Apr 2008 19:00:44 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Blake Winters" Reply-To: "Blake Winters" To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Subject: Tag Heuer replicas better than originals Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 19:00:44 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Vacheron Constantin has been producing top of the line Swiss watches since 1755. That's a lot of years of watch making, if you ask me! That's why I figured that they've had plenty of time to make their fortune by selling their watches at full price, and it is now time we can get ourselves a Vacheron Constantin for a fraction of the price. That's why I visited Prestige Replicas, the online store that specializes in the best replica watches in the whole world, and sells them for just a couple of hundred bucks. As you can imagine, at Prestige Replicas I found dozens of beautiful Vacheron Constantin replicas in their most sought after models, at prices that are simply unbeatable. Want to see their collection of Vacheron Constantins? Head over to Prestige Replicas now! http://cokolixozaw71.blogspot.com/ From cac@chadwickhome.com Tue Apr 29 11:16:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B9C63A6E20; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:16:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -83.342 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.342 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_95=3, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_SPEC_REPLICA_OBFU=1.812, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_NOV5A=1.062, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vQ-1hsBHtECf; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host243.190-137-155.telecom.net.ar (host243.190-137-155.telecom.net.ar [190.137.155.243]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 874B53A6D7C; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:16:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 4.152.178.162 by smtp.190.137.155.243; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:16:09 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Ulysses Santana" Reply-To: "Ulysses Santana" To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Subject: 15% off on two watches Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:16:09 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Have you seen the latest Jaeger-LeCoultre watches? They are even more grandiose than ever before and, sadly, as expensive as always. That's why I got my new Jaeger-LeCoultre watch at Prestige Replicas, the popular online store that specializes in low priced replicas of high priced watches. But please don't be deterred by the word "replica"... I'm talking about the cream of the crop of replica watches; such high quality copies that not even the most discriminating connoisseurs would be able to tell the difference between a legitimate Jaeger-LeCoultre and a replica from Prestige Replicas... and the prices are so low that I bought two! Of course, the fact that they offer 15 percent discount when you buy more than one watch helped me make up my mind :) http://sovecywaxek88.blogspot.com/ From cabul@yourtechrescue.com Wed Apr 30 11:32:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9C903A6AA5; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:32:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -22.47 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-22.47 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_SPEC_REPLICA_OBFU=1.812, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_NOV5A=1.062, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lbYzdb9eDsS0; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 89-215-10-99.2072974235.ddns-lan.pl.ekk.bg (89-215-10-99.2072974235.ddns-lan.pl.ekk.bg [89.215.10.99]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3AFFD3A6889; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:32:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 170.83.40.227 by smtp.89.215.10.99; Wed, 30 Apr 2008 14:32:40 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Mathew Farr" Reply-To: "Mathew Farr" To: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Subject: Watches for him, her and you Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 14:32:40 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Zenith Swiss Watches have been manufactured since 1865, and have always been worn by the Elite. Today, Prestige Replicas has removed that class difference and it can help you find the Zenith watch of your choice at a price that fits your budget! You might ask yourself how, and the answer is simple. Prestige Replicas offers replica watches made of the highest quality materials, and due to a recent redesign of the site, you now get 15% off when you purchase two or more. http://phraseatom.com logspot.com/ Visit Prestige Replicas now, and rest assured that when you place an order, it will be shipped immediately, and that your privacy and that of your order are ensured! http://phraseatom.com logspot.com/