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Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00
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> I've just submitted:
> 
>   http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00
> 
> "This document provides guidelines for the implementation of DNS 
proxies, 
> as found in broadband routers and other similar network devices."

Does anyone have any feedback on this draft?

thanks,

Ray


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Mon Nov  3 09:55:14 2008
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From: bert hubert <bert.hubert@netherlabs.nl>
To: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00
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On Mon, Nov 03, 2008 at 03:51:49PM +0000, Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk wrote:
> >   http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00
> > 
> > "This document provides guidelines for the implementation of DNS 
> proxies, 
> > as found in broadband routers and other similar network devices."
> 
> Does anyone have any feedback on this draft?

It looks like a fine document to me, and many of the points raised are
actually troublesome in real life.

What I worry about is that this draft basically says "Please adhere to the
DNS RFCs", where it is abundantly clear that proxies so far have not done
so.

It is questionable if people who disregarded the previous 20 RFCs will heed
this one.

Draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy might be something nice and pointed (if not,
pointy) to hit vendors over the head with, and perhaps get them to do the
right thing.

(This was the aim of draft-forgery-resilience, but it did not work in time)

So all in all - I find many good things in this draft, but I worry if it
will achieve any effect.

	Bert

-- 
http://www.PowerDNS.com      Open source, database driven DNS Software 
http://netherlabs.nl              Open and Closed source services

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Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00
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> It looks like a fine document to me, and many of the points raised are
> actually troublesome in real life.

Thanks.
 
> What I worry about is that this draft basically says "Please adhere to 
the
> DNS RFCs", where it is abundantly clear that proxies so far have not 
done
> so.
>
> It is questionable if people who disregarded the previous 20 RFCs will 
heed
> this one.
> 
> Draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy might be something nice and pointed (if 
not,
> pointy) to hit vendors over the head with, and perhaps get them to do 
the
> right thing.

All of that is true.  The point is, I think, that many of the software 
engineers who have developed these proxies are unaware of the wide range 
of RFCs that need to be implemented to be fully compatible with modern 
DNS.  It's apparent to me, at least, that they've looked up RFC1035, and 
done that, and only that.

My intent is therefore to provide that single "pointer RFC" which provides 
concrete examples of known failings and clear references to where the 
necessary specifications can be found.

> So all in all - I find many good things in this draft, but I worry if it
> will achieve any effect.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see :)

cheers,

Ray


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Mon Nov  3 11:08:39 2008
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From: bert hubert <bert.hubert@netherlabs.nl>
To: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00
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On Mon, Nov 03, 2008 at 05:53:30PM +0000, Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk wrote:

> All of that is true.  The point is, I think, that many of the software 
> engineers who have developed these proxies are unaware of the wide range 

You use the term 'engineer' in the very widest sense of the word. The people
'assembling' these domestic devices will generally only code until they can
browse the web over it using their PC, and then slap a box around the
product and ship it.

> of RFCs that need to be implemented to be fully compatible with modern 
> DNS.  It's apparent to me, at least, that they've looked up RFC1035, and 
> done that, and only that.

They haven't even done that, in my experience.

> My intent is therefore to provide that single "pointer RFC" which provides 
> concrete examples of known failings and clear references to where the 
> necessary specifications can be found.

That would be good - this also argues for not adding heaps of other stuff to
the RFC - I think everybody would like to have his pet DNS difficulty
included, but overall that would not help achieve greater compliance.

	Bert

-- 
http://www.PowerDNS.com      Open source, database driven DNS Software 
http://netherlabs.nl              Open and Closed source services

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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 14:22:33 -0500
To: bert hubert <bert.hubert@netherlabs.nl>, Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk
From: Olafur Gudmundsson <ogud@ogud.com>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
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<no-hat>

At 12:46 03/11/2008, bert hubert wrote:
>On Mon, Nov 03, 2008 at 03:51:49PM +0000, Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk wrote:
> > >   http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00
> > >
> > > "This document provides guidelines for the implementation of DNS
> > proxies,
> > > as found in broadband routers and other similar network devices."
> >
> > Does anyone have any feedback on this draft?
>
>It looks like a fine document to me, and many of the points raised are
>actually troublesome in real life.
>
>What I worry about is that this draft basically says "Please adhere to the
>DNS RFCs", where it is abundantly clear that proxies so far have not done
>so.
>
>It is questionable if people who disregarded the previous 20 RFCs will heed
>this one.
>
>Draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy might be something nice and pointed (if not,
>pointy) to hit vendors over the head with, and perhaps get them to do the
>right thing.

My biggest hope for this one is that major ISP's will use this document as
an test/purchase guide for equipment. If that happens suddenly the
lazy vendors will fix their act.


>(This was the aim of draft-forgery-resilience, but it did not work in time)
>
>So all in all - I find many good things in this draft, but I worry if it
>will achieve any effect.

This is an attempt to in a small way start getting the effect that some
of us hoped that DNS-Profile document would do.
This is attempt #2, beat the worst offenders into submission.
(Attempt #1 was beat all into compliance)

         Olafur (no hat)

--=====================_323862990==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
<font size=3>&lt;no-hat&gt; <br><br>
At 12:46 03/11/2008, bert hubert wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">On Mon, Nov 03, 2008 at
03:51:49PM +0000, Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00" eudora="autourl">
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &quot;This document provides guidelines for the implementation
of DNS <br>
&gt; proxies, <br>
&gt; &gt; as found in broadband routers and other similar network
devices.&quot;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Does anyone have any feedback on this draft?<br><br>
It looks like a fine document to me, and many of the points raised
are<br>
actually troublesome in real life.<br><br>
What I worry about is that this draft basically says &quot;Please adhere
to the<br>
DNS RFCs&quot;, where it is abundantly clear that proxies so far have not
done<br>
so.<br><br>
It is questionable if people who disregarded the previous 20 RFCs will
heed<br>
this one.<br><br>
Draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy might be something nice and pointed (if
not,<br>
pointy) to hit vendors over the head with, and perhaps get them to do
the<br>
right thing.<br>
</font></blockquote><br>
My biggest hope for this one is that major ISP's will use this document
as<br>
an test/purchase guide for equipment. If that happens suddenly the<br>
lazy vendors will fix their act. <br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><font size=3>(This was the aim
of draft-forgery-resilience, but it did not work in time)<br><br>
So all in all - I find many good things in this draft, but I worry if
it<br>
will achieve any effect.</blockquote><br>
This is an attempt to in a small way start getting the effect that
some<br>
of us hoped that DNS-Profile document would do. <br>
This is attempt #2, beat the worst offenders into submission. <br>
(Attempt #1 was beat all into compliance) <br><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Olafur (no
hat) <br>
</font></body>
</html>

--=====================_323862990==.ALT--


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Mon Nov  3 11:34:01 2008
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From: Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de>
To: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00
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* Ray Bellis:

>> I've just submitted:
>> 
>>   http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00
>> 
>> "This document provides guidelines for the implementation of DNS 
> proxies, 
>> as found in broadband routers and other similar network devices."
>
> Does anyone have any feedback on this draft?

|   Also, whilst the EDNS0 specification allows for a buffer size of up
|   to 65536 octets, most common DNS server implementations do not
|   support a buffer size above 4096 octets.

65536?  Shouldn't it be 65535?

| 6.1.  Forgery Resilience

It is imperative that if the the response is cached, the packet is not
passed through unchanged, query ID and source ports MUST be
randomized.  This requires some work for TSIG queries (as described in
RFC 2845).

|   o  invalid compression pointers (i.e. those that run forward of the
|      current packet offset, or which don't point at the start of
|      another label).

Are these pointers really invalid?

Compression loops and compression references in places where actually
forbidden by the RFCs would be relevant examples, IMHO.

|   o  incorrect counts for the Question, Answer, Authority and
|      Additional Sections (although care should be taken where
|      truncation is a possibility).

This raises the question of trailing garbage in the UDP packet.  For
interoperability reasons, I think this has to be accepted.

I like the draft.  But I have to agree with Bert that it's a bit like
preaching to the choir.

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Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00
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On Nov 3, 2008, at 11:00 AM, bert hubert wrote:
>
> That would be good - this also argues for not adding heaps of other  
> stuff to
> the RFC - I think everybody would like to have his pet DNS difficulty
> included, but overall that would not help achieve greater compliance.

I think the most important behavior is "Get Outta the Way!"

Namely, any such device MUST not block direct access to an arbitrary  
remote DNS server from an end-host, with the packet payload unchanged,  
and SHOULD not change the UDP SRC port selected by the end-host.

There will always be cases where the policy on any in-path device is  
incorrect.  Therefore the most important policy that a NAT or similar  
device should have with regards to DNS traffic is the ability to  
bypass any proxying or other such manipulation.

This is, IMO, absolutely essential, because everything else can be  
worked around as long as the stub resolver can access whatever  
external resources it deems necessary.


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org 
> [mailto:owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas Weaver
> Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 11:31 AM
> To: bert hubert
> Cc: Nicholas Weaver; Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; 
> namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00
> 
> 
> On Nov 3, 2008, at 11:00 AM, bert hubert wrote:
> >
> > That would be good - this also argues for not adding heaps 
> of other  
> > stuff to
> > the RFC - I think everybody would like to have his pet DNS 
> difficulty
> > included, but overall that would not help achieve greater 
> compliance.
> 
> I think the most important behavior is "Get Outta the Way!"
> 
> Namely, any such device MUST not block direct access to an arbitrary  
> remote DNS server from an end-host, with the packet payload 
> unchanged, and SHOULD not change the UDP SRC port selected by 
> the end-host.

Preserving the UDP source port is not possible if there are two hosts 
behind a NAT and those two hosts use the same UDP source port.  

-d


> There will always be cases where the policy on any in-path device is  
> incorrect.  Therefore the most important policy that a NAT or 
> similar  
> device should have with regards to DNS traffic is the ability to  
> bypass any proxying or other such manipulation.
> 
> This is, IMO, absolutely essential, because everything else can be  
> worked around as long as the stub resolver can access whatever  
> external resources it deems necessary.
> 
> 
> --
> to unsubscribe send a message to 
> namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
> the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
> archive: <http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/>


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Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00
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> |   Also, whilst the EDNS0 specification allows for a buffer size of up
> |   to 65536 octets, most common DNS server implementations do not
> |   support a buffer size above 4096 octets.
> 
> 65536?  Shouldn't it be 65535?

Indeed, yes!  Well done for catching the deliberate mistake ;-)

> | 6.1.  Forgery Resilience
> 
> It is imperative that if the the response is cached, the packet is not
> passed through unchanged, query ID and source ports MUST be
> randomized.  This requires some work for TSIG queries (as described in
> RFC 2845).

I'm no expert on TSIG and included what little there is at Olafur's 
behest.  I'll probably need to defer that one to him.

> 
> |   o  invalid compression pointers (i.e. those that run forward of the
> |      current packet offset, or which don't point at the start of
> |      another label).
> 
> Are these pointers really invalid?

Forward pointing ones certainly are:

RFC1035, section 4.1.4: "In this scheme, an entire domain name or a list 
of labels at the end of a domain name is replaced with a pointer to a 
prior occurance of the same name"

A pointer that links to somewhere other than the start of another label 
isn't (AFAIK) expressly prohibited.  However I can't imagine why any 
"real" upstream resolver would ever produce one for legitimate reasons.  I 
am aware of certain research of the use of this technique to reduce the 
size of packets needed for cache-poisoning attacks, since smaller packets 
implies greater attack efficiency.

> Compression loops and compression references in places where actually
> forbidden by the RFCs would be relevant examples, IMHO.

Compression loops is a good one.  Can you provide an example or reference 
to an illegal compression place?

> This raises the question of trailing garbage in the UDP packet.  For
> interoperability reasons, I think this has to be accepted.

Interesting...  in my earlier research we were more concerned with missing 
data, and never noticed extraneous data.  Is this a common occurrence?

> I like the draft.  But I have to agree with Bert that it's a bit like
> preaching to the choir.

Yes, but the intent is that this draft will help make the choir larger :)

Ray


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Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk wrote:
> Forward pointing ones certainly are:

ok

> A pointer that links to somewhere other than the start of another label 
> isn't (AFAIK) expressly prohibited.  However I can't imagine why any 
> "real" upstream resolver would ever produce one for legitimate reasons.  I 
> am aware of certain research of the use of this technique to reduce the 
> size of packets needed for cache-poisoning attacks, since smaller packets 
> implies greater attack efficiency.

Well, it could certainly be useful for compression of DNSSEC packets. I
have not tried to do so for interoperability reasons.  But, for DNSSEC
packets the RRSIG rdata cannot be compressed, but if put in the packet
first, it can be used to compress *to*.

Could you refrain from making this impossible? The draft is about stubs
anyway, just leave out 'at the start of another label'.

I would also leave out the backpointing requirement.  I would rather not
have my firewall check to make sure compression pointers point back.

>> This raises the question of trailing garbage in the UDP packet.  For
>> interoperability reasons, I think this has to be accepted.
> 
> Interesting...  in my earlier research we were more concerned with missing 
> data, and never noticed extraneous data.  Is this a common occurrence?

Yes.

Best regards,
   Wouter
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[re non-label pointers]
> Well, it could certainly be useful for compression of DNSSEC packets. I
> have not tried to do so for interoperability reasons.  But, for DNSSEC
> packets the RRSIG rdata cannot be compressed, but if put in the packet
> first, it can be used to compress *to*.

It could, but what's the likelyhood that the wire-format RRSIG data would 
look remotely like a legal label?

> Could you refrain from making this impossible? The draft is about stubs
> anyway, just leave out 'at the start of another label'.
>
> I would also leave out the backpointing requirement.  I would rather not
> have my firewall check to make sure compression pointers point back.

Please note that this section of the draft talks about things that MAY be 
considered acceptable for a DPI firewall to block.  The main thrust of the 
draft is that unless they've got a _really_ good reason they shouldn't 
block the packets based on their content at all.

[re: trailing garbage]
> > Interesting...  in my earlier research we were more concerned with 
missing 
> > data, and never noticed extraneous data.  Is this a common occurrence?
> 
> Yes.

Has anyone ever looked to find out why this happens?

Ray


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Tue Nov  4 01:56:04 2008
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Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 11:50:52 +0200
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00
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At 9:33 +0000 11/4/08, Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk wrote:

>>  Yes.
>
>Has anyone ever looked to find out why this happens?

I know of one case - back when there was the hard limit of 512, one 
implementation would truncate at that and not at the end of the last 
complete RR.  Why?  All conjecture, but it is faster than clipping 
back to the last useable byte of data.

One thing to keep in mind.  When considering the receipt of data from 
the network, don't engineer to what makes sense, engineer to what 
could possibly come in.  As in the robustness principle "liberal in 
what you accept."  That doesn't mean you have to accept and digest 
what's come in, but admit that FORMERRs will happen on the remote end 
or at intermediate boxes and write code that won't barf on it.
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Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
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Given the positive feedback received on my draft, may I request that the 
DNSEXT WG adopt draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00 ("DNS Proxy Implementation 
Guidelines") as a Working Group Document?

thanks,

Ray

-- 
Ray Bellis, MA(Oxon)
Senior Researcher in Advanced Projects, Nominet
e: ray@nominet.org.uk, t: +44 1865 332211

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Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00 - WG Item?
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On Nov 4, 2008, at 3:13 PM, Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk wrote:

> Given the positive feedback received on my draft, may I request that  
> the
> DNSEXT WG adopt draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00 ("DNS Proxy  
> Implementation
> Guidelines") as a Working Group Document?


I believe that this work is important, given the low quality of DNS  
proxies in the wild. So yes, would like to see it adopted by the  
working group.

-- 
patrik_wallstrom->foodfight->pawal@blipp.com->+46-733173956


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Tue Nov  4 08:54:36 2008
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Gu=F0mundsson?= /DNSEXT 
 chair <ogud@ogud.com>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00 - WG Item?
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Dear colleagues,
This document http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00.txt
is within the WG scope.

If you support the adoption of this document AND are willing to work
towards its progress by reviewing it, please send message to that effect
to the mailing list.

By policy the WG needs at least 5 members to publicly support the document
before it can be adopted.

If you have suggestions/recommendations about the scope of the document this
is a great time for that discussion.

         Olafur (for the chairs)


At 09:13 04/11/2008, Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk wrote:
>Given the positive feedback received on my draft, may I request that the
>DNSEXT WG adopt draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00 ("DNS Proxy Implementation
>Guidelines") as a Working Group Document?
>
>thanks,
>
>Ray
>
>--
>Ray Bellis, MA(Oxon)
>Senior Researcher in Advanced Projects, Nominet
>e: ray@nominet.org.uk, t: +44 1865 332211
>
>--
>to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
>the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
>archive: <http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/>

--=====================_400958958==.ALT
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<html>
<body>
<font size=3><br><br>
Dear colleagues, <br>
This document
<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00.txt" eudora="autourl">
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00.txt</a> <br>
is within the WG scope. <br><br>
If you support the adoption of this document AND are willing to work
<br>
towards its progress by reviewing it, please send message to that effect
<br>
to the mailing list. <br><br>
By policy the WG needs at least 5 members to publicly support the
document<br>
before it can be adopted. <br><br>
If you have suggestions/recommendations about the scope of the document
this<br>
is a great time for that discussion. <br><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Olafur
(for the chairs) <br><br>
<br>
At 09:13 04/11/2008, Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Given the positive feedback
received on my draft, may I request that the <br>
DNSEXT WG adopt draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00 (&quot;DNS Proxy
Implementation <br>
Guidelines&quot;) as a Working Group Document?<br><br>
thanks,<br><br>
Ray<br><br>
-- <br>
Ray Bellis, MA(Oxon)<br>
Senior Researcher in Advanced Projects, Nominet<br>
e: ray@nominet.org.uk, t: +44 1865 332211<br><br>
--<br>
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Tue Nov  4 09:37:06 2008
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Subject: RE: [dnsext] draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00 - WG Item?
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From: "Avirneni, Srini" <Srini_Avirneni@Cable.Comcast.com>
To: <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>
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I support this document! =20

=20

I am glad that we can hopefully push this as community and not just =
one-on-one with the vendors.=20

=20

Regards,

=20

Srini Avirneni

Distinguished Engineer

Product Engineering, NE&TO

Comcast Cable

=20

________________________________

From: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org =
[mailto:owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of =D3lafur =
Gu=F0mundsson /DNSEXT chair
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 11:49 AM
To: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00 - WG Item?

=20



Dear colleagues,=20
This document =
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00.txt=20
is within the WG scope.=20

If you support the adoption of this document AND are willing to work=20
towards its progress by reviewing it, please send message to that effect =

to the mailing list.=20

By policy the WG needs at least 5 members to publicly support the =
document
before it can be adopted.=20

If you have suggestions/recommendations about the scope of the document =
this
is a great time for that discussion.=20

        Olafur (for the chairs)=20


At 09:13 04/11/2008, Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk wrote:



Given the positive feedback received on my draft, may I request that the =

DNSEXT WG adopt draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00 ("DNS Proxy =
Implementation=20
Guidelines") as a Working Group Document?

thanks,

Ray

--=20
Ray Bellis, MA(Oxon)
Senior Researcher in Advanced Projects, Nominet
e: ray@nominet.org.uk, t: +44 1865 332211

--
to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
archive: < http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/ =
<http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/> >


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I support this document!=A0 =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I am glad that we can hopefully push this as =
community and
not just one-on-one with the vendors. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Srini Avirneni<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Distinguished Engineer</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Product Engineering, =
NE&amp;TO</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Comcast Cable</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org] =
<b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>=D3lafur =
Gu=F0mundsson /DNSEXT
chair<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, November =
04, 2008
11:49 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk;
namedroppers@ops.ietf.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dnsext]
draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00 - WG Item?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
Dear colleagues, <br>
This document <a
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00.txt"
eudora=3Dautourl>http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00=
.txt</a>
<br>
is within the WG scope. <br>
<br>
If you support the adoption of this document AND are willing to work =
<br>
towards its progress by reviewing it, please send message to that effect =
<br>
to the mailing list. <br>
<br>
By policy the WG needs at least 5 members to publicly support the =
document<br>
before it can be adopted. <br>
<br>
If you have suggestions/recommendations about the scope of the document =
this<br>
is a great time for that discussion. <br>
<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Olafur =
(for the
chairs) <br>
<br>
<br>
At 09:13 04/11/2008, Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Given the positive feedback received on my draft, may I request =
that
the <br>
DNSEXT WG adopt draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00 (&quot;DNS Proxy =
Implementation
<br>
Guidelines&quot;) as a Working Group Document?<br>
<br>
thanks,<br>
<br>
Ray<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">Ray Bellis</st1:City>, =
<st1:State
 w:st=3D"on">MA</st1:State></st1:place>(Oxon)<br>
Senior Researcher in Advanced Projects, Nominet<br>
e: ray@nominet.org.uk, t: +44 1865 332211<br>
<br>
--<br>
to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org =
with<br>
the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.<br>
archive: &lt;<a href=3D"http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/" =
eudora=3Dautourl>
http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Tue Nov  4 09:41:59 2008
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00 - WG Item?
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 09:37:27 -0800
References: <OFC2B4769A.688DDF76-ON802574F7.004DE059-802574F7.004E250A@nominet.org.uk> <200811041648.mA4Gmxv9060421@stora.ogud.com>
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On Nov 4, 2008, at 8:48 AM, =D3lafur Gu=F0mundsson /DNSEXT chair wrote:

>
>
> Dear colleagues,
> This document =
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00.txt
> is within the WG scope.
>
> If you support the adoption of this document AND are willing to work
> towards its progress by reviewing it, please send message to that =20
> effect
> to the mailing list.

ACK

> If you have suggestions/recommendations about the scope of the =20
> document this
> is a great time for that discussion.

The only one (which I've already mentioned) is bypassibility:  Unless =20=

the proxy is specifically implementing a security policy (an IDS =20
rather than a NAT), the end resolver should be allowed to direct its =20
own queries and bypass the proxy completely.



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> The only one (which I've already mentioned) is bypassibility:  Unless 
> the proxy is specifically implementing a security policy (an IDS 
> rather than a NAT), the end resolver should be allowed to direct its 
> own queries and bypass the proxy completely.

The good news, based on the tests that resulted in SAC035, is that of the 
24 units we tested we had negligible problems routing queries directly to 
pre-configured upstream resolvers.

One unit would initially only permit queries to the same servers as had 
been learned over WAN DHCP, but a firmware update resolved that.

Another unit had an occasional memory leak when handling large(ish) EDNS0 
packets, but otherwise worked fine.

That's why there's nothing in the draft about this at the moment, but I 
can't see that it would hurt to add something.

However, as you hint at, we must also be sensitive to the requirement that 
sometimes walled-gardens and other security policies mandate that the end 
user must use the proxy.  In those cases we should consider guidance as to 
how the proxy can help effect the walled-garden without interfering with 
DNSSEC and/or TSIG.

kind regards,

Ray

-- 
Ray Bellis, MA(Oxon)
Senior Researcher in Advanced Projects, Nominet
e: ray@nominet.org.uk, t: +44 1865 332211

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Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00
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* Ray Bellis:

> Forward pointing ones certainly are:
>
> RFC1035, section 4.1.4: "In this scheme, an entire domain name or a list 
> of labels at the end of a domain name is replaced with a pointer to a 
> prior occurance of the same name"

I'm not sure if such strict reading is advisable.  From that quote,
it's not clear that compressing "ns1.example.com" as "ns1", followed
by a reference to the "example.com" in "www.example.com" is permitted.

>> Compression loops and compression references in places where actually
>> forbidden by the RFCs would be relevant examples, IMHO.
>
> Compression loops is a good one.  Can you provide an example or reference 
> to an illegal compression place?

Signer's name in an RRSIG, for instance.

> Interesting...  in my earlier research we were more concerned with missing 
> data, and never noticed extraneous data.  Is this a common occurrence?

I see it quite often, but I have no idea how much of that is accepted
by initiators.

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A comment on draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-09:

Section 3.1 includes the paragraph:

> Zones for which it is impractical to list the entire zones for a serial
> number (because changes happen too quickly) are not suitable for AXFR
> retrieval.

I can see the difficulty in handling this case, but doesn't this statement 
almost make it a requirement that AXFR must not handle such zones?  RFC 
1035 (section 6.3) suggests that the decision is down to the 
implementation:

> If a master is sending a zone out via AXFR, and a new version is created
> during the transfer, the master should continue to send the old version
> if possible.  In any case, it should never send part of one version and
> part of another.  If completion is not possible, the master should reset
> the connection on which the zone transfer is taking place.


Stephen

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Dear colleagues,

Attached is the draft agenda for the WG meeting at IETF73.  Please  
check it & let us know if there's anything missing (or on here that  
you don't think should be).  Thanks.

Best regards,

Andrew (for the Chairs)


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Agenda for the meeting of the DNS Extensions Working Group
IETF 73
Minneapolis, US
2008-11-18 15:20-1700 EST

1.  Minutes and Jabber scribes (2 min)

2.  Note well (2 min)                                           15:22

3.  WG status                                                   15:24

    3.1  Drafts published (1 min)
    3.2  RFC ed. queue  (2 min)
         a.  draft-ietf-dnsext-2929bis
    3.3  IESG processing (2 min)
         a.  draft-ietf-dnsext-forgery-resilience
    3.4  Documents in/past WGLC (5 min)                         15:30
         a.  draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname 
         b.  draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-rsasha256
    3.5  Current WG documents (15 min)                          15:35
         a.  draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-bis-updates
             - editor has asked not to discuss: updates pending
         b.  draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify
             - editor has asked not to discuss, because no
               comments on list.  Please comment!
         c.  draft-ietf-dnsext-tsig-md5-deprecated
         d.  draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-trans
    3.6  Expired WG documents (5 min)                           15:50
         a.  draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2671bis-edns0
         b.  draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile
             - dead
             - is there work to be salvaged here?
    3.7  Expert evaluation (8 min)                              15:55
         a.  draft-donnerhacke-sidr-bgp-verification-dnssec
             (ASSET)
         b.  draft-cheshire-dnsext-multicastdns-07.txt
             (NEGATIVE)

4.  Proposed WG work (20 min)                                   16:03
    Excludes further forgery resilience work

    4.1   draft-crocker-dnssec-algo-signal (5 min)
    4.2   draft-bagnulo-behave-dns64 (10 min)
    4.3   draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00 (5 min)
    
5.  Further forgery resilience work ( min)                    16:23

The WG will be presented with the results of some discussion among
draft authors.  The following drafts are the basis of that discussion:

draft-barwood-dnsext-fr-resolver-mitigations
draft-reid-dnsext-aleatoric
draft-vixie-dnsext-dns0x20 
draft-weaver-dnsext-fr-comprehensive 
draft-wijngaards-dnsext-resolver-side-mitigation

6.  A.O.B. (5 min)                                              16:53

7.  Blue sheets & adjourn (2 min)                               17:00

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Andrew Sullivan
ajs@shinkuro.com





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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Wed Nov  5 09:10:39 2008
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] Zones suitable for AXFR
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From: Florian Weimer <fweimer@bfk.de>
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In-Reply-To: <OFDD3F6EB8.184733B5-ON802574F8.004A2935-802574F8.004E6036@nominet.org.uk> (Stephen Morris's message of "Wed, 5 Nov 2008 14:16:03 +0000")
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* Stephen Morris:

> I can see the difficulty in handling this case, but doesn't this statemen=
t=20
> almost make it a requirement that AXFR must not handle such zones?  RFC=20
> 1035 (section 6.3) suggests that the decision is down to the=20
> implementation:
>
>> If a master is sending a zone out via AXFR, and a new version is created
>> during the transfer, the master should continue to send the old version
>> if possible.  In any case, it should never send part of one version and
>> part of another.  If completion is not possible, the master should reset
>> the connection on which the zone transfer is taking place.

I think it's fine to send a mix of multiple versions, with two
caveats: For each name, one version is chose that applies to all
RRsets for that name, and the served data is not less consistent than
any of the zone versions involved (for example, regarding restrictions
on names imposed by NS/CNAME/DNAME records in the zone).

The rationale is that for a client, it's not observable if a
flip-flopping view of the zone is due to this transfer behavior or
other factors (anycast, AXFR delays etc.).

I understand that for audit purposes, having two distinct copies with
the same serial could be a significant headache.  But I suppose
preventing this should be a SHOULD, not a MUST.

--=20
Florian Weimer                <fweimer@bfk.de>
BFK edv-consulting GmbH       http://www.bfk.de/
Kriegsstra=DFe 100              tel: +49-721-96201-1
D-76133 Karlsruhe             fax: +49-721-96201-99

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Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00 - WG Item?
From: Shane Kerr <shane@ca.afilias.info>
To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur_Gu=F0mundsson?= /DNSEXT chair <ogud@ogud.com>
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
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References:
	 <OFC2B4769A.688DDF76-ON802574F7.004DE059-802574F7.004E250A@nominet.org.uk>
	 <200811041648.mA4Gmxv9060421@stora.ogud.com>
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Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 23:46:48 +0100
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=C3=93lafur,

On Tue, 2008-11-04 at 11:48 -0500, =C3=93lafur Gu=C3=B0mundsson /DNSEXT cha=
ir
wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Dear colleagues,=20
> This document
> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00.txt=20
> is within the WG scope.=20
>=20
> If you support the adoption of this document AND are willing to work=20
> towards its progress by reviewing it, please send message to that
> effect=20
> to the mailing list.=20

I support this document, and am willing to review it. It's a good start
to making the DNS protocols implementable by non-gurus.

--
Shane


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Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft agenda for IETF 73
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Well, of course, there's the time zone error.  Doh.  Please replace  
"EST" with "CST" in your reading.

A

On 5-Nov-08, at 9:54 AM, Andrew Sullivan wrote:

> <dnsext-ietf73-agenda-02.txt>

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@shinkuro.com





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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Thu Nov  6 06:58:55 2008
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft agenda for IETF 73
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Andrew Sullivan wrote:

> Attached is the draft agenda for the WG meeting at IETF73.
> Please check it & let us know if there's anything missing
> (or on here that you don't think should be). Thanks. 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Andrew (for the Chairs)
> 
> ...
> 
>          b.  draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify
>              - editor has asked not to discuss, because no
>                comments on list.  Please comment!
I admit, the on-list and off-list discussion on axfr-clarify-09
is a bit adted
and has been overwhelmed by other hot stuff, but my expectation
was to see a new draft revision in order to have a
consolidated base far a 'warm restart' of the discussion -- if needed, or else proceed to WGLC.


Kind regards,
  Alfred.


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From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= <ah@tr-sys.de>
Message-Id: <200811061500.QAA04684@TR-Sys.de>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft agenda for IETF 73  (corrected)
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Folks,

[[  Sorry for sending the previous message prematurely. ]]
[[  This is the corrected and completed version.        ]]


Andrew Sullivan wrote:

> Attached is the draft agenda for the WG meeting at IETF73.
> Please check it & let us know if there's anything missing
> (or on here that you don't think should be). Thanks. 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Andrew (for the Chairs)
> 
> ...
> 
>          b.  draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify
>              - editor has asked not to discuss, because no
>                comments on list.  Please comment!

Admittedly, the on-list and off-list discussion of axfr-clarify-09
now is a bit aged and has been overwhelmed by other hot stuff, but
my personal expectation was to see a new draft revision in order to
have a consolidated base far a 'warm restart' of the discussion
-- if needed, or else proceed to WGLC.

[ Hope the latter alternative will wake all snakes  :-)  ]

Ed, please take this remark as an encouragement!


Kind regards,
  Alfred.

-- 

+------------------------+--------------------------------------------+
| TR-Sys Alfred Hoenes   |  Alfred Hoenes   Dipl.-Math., Dipl.-Phys.  |
| Gerlinger Strasse 12   |  Phone: (+49)7156/9635-0, Fax: -18         |
| D-71254  Ditzingen     |  E-Mail:  ah@TR-Sys.de                     |
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Thu Nov  6 14:17:59 2008
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Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 00:10:38 +0200
To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft agenda for IETF 73
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At 15:50 +0100 11/6/08, Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= wrote:

>I admit, the on-list and off-list discussion on axfr-clarify-09
>is a bit adted
>and has been overwhelmed by other hot stuff, but my expectation
>was to see a new draft revision in order to have a
>consolidated base far a 'warm restart' of the discussion -- if needed,
>or else proceed to WGLC.

My apologies to the group.  But since the meeting in Dublin I have 
not even had a whole week at home.  In fact, the longest stretches 
were one of 6 days and another of 5 days.  But after Minneapolis, I 
have no travel for some time.

I sincerely hope.

PS - Alfred, I do have your still unopened-by-me-message with 
comments in my in-box.

At 16:00 +0100 11/6/08, Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= wrote:
>Ed, please take this remark as an encouragement!

;)  Oh, what I need to do is to lose my passport!

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Never confuse activity with progress.  Activity pays more.

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Subject: [dnsext] Re: draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00 - WG Item?
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On Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 11:48:33AM -0500,
 Ólafur Guðmundsson /DNSEXT chair <ogud@ogud.com> wrote 
 a message of 94 lines which said:

> If you support the adoption of this document 

I do. The brokeness of most middleboxes is probably one of the main
problems of the Internet today. We cannot solve it overnight but we
can at least do our part by providing clear and up-to-date
documents. The I-D is a very good start.

> AND are willing to work towards its progress by reviewing it,

I hesitated here, giving the bad experience with dns-profile but, as
far as I know, I always kept my promises of reviewing (not of
authoring). So, YES again.


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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 10:56:55 -0500
From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft agenda for IETF 73
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Dear colleagues,

On Wed, Nov 05, 2008 at 09:54:47AM -0500, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> Attached is the draft agenda for the WG meeting at IETF73.  Please check 
> it & let us know if there's anything missing (or on here that you don't 
> think should be).  Thanks.

Based on the comments and late requests I've received, I've updated
the agenda.  

Best regards,

Andrew

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@shinkuro.com
Shinkuro, Inc.

--envbJBWh7q8WU6mo
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Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="dnsext-ietf73-agenda-03.txt"

Agenda for the meeting of the DNS Extensions Working Group
IETF 73
Minneapolis, US
2008-11-18 15:20-1700 EST

1.  Minutes and Jabber scribes (2 min)

2.  Note well (2 min)                                           15:22

3.  WG status                                                   15:24

    3.1  Drafts published (1 min)
    3.2  RFC ed. queue  (2 min)
         a.  draft-ietf-dnsext-2929bis
    3.3  IESG processing (2 min)
         a.  draft-ietf-dnsext-forgery-resilience
    3.4  Documents in/past WGLC (5 min)                         15:30
         a.  draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname 
         b.  draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-rsasha256
    3.5  Current WG documents (15 min)                          15:35
         a.  draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-bis-updates
             - editor has asked not to discuss: updates pending
         b.  draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify
             - editor has asked not to discuss, because no
               comments on list.  Please comment!
         c.  draft-ietf-dnsext-tsig-md5-deprecated
         d.  draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-trans
    3.6  Expired WG documents (5 min)                           15:50
         a.  draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2671bis-edns0
         b.  draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile
             - dead
             - is there work to be salvaged here?
    3.7  Expert evaluation (8 min)                              15:55
         a.  draft-donnerhacke-sidr-bgp-verification-dnssec
             (ASSET)
         b.  draft-cheshire-dnsext-multicastdns-07.txt
             (NEGATIVE)

4.  Proposed WG work (20 min)                                   16:03
    Excludes further forgery resilience work

    4.1   draft-crocker-dnssec-algo-signal (4 min)
    4.2   draft-bagnulo-behave-dns64 (10 min)
    4.3   draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00 (4 min)
    4.4   draft-andrews-dnsext-expire (4 min)
    
5.  Further forgery resilience work (30 min)                    16:25

The WG will be presented with the results of some discussion among
draft authors.  The following drafts are the basis of that discussion:

draft-barwood-dnsext-fr-resolver-mitigations
draft-reid-dnsext-aleatoric
draft-vixie-dnsext-dns0x20 
draft-weaver-dnsext-fr-comprehensive 
draft-wijngaards-dnsext-resolver-side-mitigation

6.  A.O.B. (3 min)                                              16:53

7.  Blue sheets & adjourn (2 min)                               17:00

--envbJBWh7q8WU6mo--

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Tue Nov 11 08:23:36 2008
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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:17:23 -0500
From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>
To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dnsext] Zones suitable for AXFR
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Dear colleagues,

[no hat]

On Wed, Nov 05, 2008 at 06:04:03PM +0100, Florian Weimer wrote:

> I think it's fine to send a mix of multiple versions

I don't think that's fine, and I think it would be a very bad idea to
weaken at all the language in RFC 1035 sec 6.3.  I read the existing
text as being somewhat more prescriptive than a 2119 SHOULD (although
still obviously not a MUST).  My interpretation is based on the word
"never", which is a universal even though should is not imperative.
If there were to be room for deviation, the text should properly read
"should almost never" or "should avoid".  Of course, RFC 1035 is not
holy writ, and we could change it if that were desirable.  But I think
it is not.  See below.

> For each name, one version is chose that applies to all
> RRsets for that name, and the served data is not less consistent than
> any of the zone versions involved (for example, regarding restrictions
> on names imposed by NS/CNAME/DNAME records in the zone).

The problem I have with this is that there is currently one actor that
can introduce inconsistency, and that's the zone administrator (maybe
due to automated tools that update the zone data without updating the
SOA serial number).  The proposal to allow continued flow of AXFR when
the underlying data changes introduces a completely new actor into the
mix: the transferring server itself.  In such a case, it is
indeterminite even from the point of view of the administrator when an
inconsistent version of the zone could show up.

If we approach the DNS as a distributed database, then introducing new
vectors for consistency failure seems to me like a bad idea --
especially ones where nobody can say with certainty when the
consistency failure could happen.

Best regards,

Andrew

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@shinkuro.com
Shinkuro, Inc.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Tue Nov 11 12:14:05 2008
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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:05:02 -0500
From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>
To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: [dnsext] Call for scribe volunteers
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Dear colleagues,

Now that I have fixed the agenda to have the right time zone, I
thought I'd post a reminder that advance volunteers to take the
minutes and update the Jabber room during the Minneapolis meeting are
more than welcome.  

Best regards,

Andrew

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@shinkuro.com
Shinkuro, Inc.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Wed Nov 12 07:33:28 2008
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 chair <ogud@ogud.com>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Time-line for forgery resilience phase #2
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Dear colleagues
It has been rather quiet on the mailing list on this topic.
So far only 3 people have volunteered to be on the design team.
         Nicholas Weaver
         Matt Larson
         David Blacka
The chairs are looking for a design team that includes people from
different backgrounds and experiences. In particular we are looking
for volunteers from the ISP and non-TLD authorative server side.
(contact me privately if you want to be included, only vetted volunteers
will get the magic email telling them the location of the design team
gathering).

If you think this effort is important, please volunteer, or say on the
mailing list what your "solution space would look like" as a template for
the design team to look at.

In addition if there are operational practices that we should recommend=
 please
put them forward as well.

         thanks
         Olafur

At 15:24 17/10/2008, =D3lafur Gu=F0mundsson /DNSEXT wrote:

>Dear colleagues,
>
>Thank you for taking the suggestions below to heart and following the plan.
>
>At this point we have following drafts submitted:
>=20
>http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-barwood-dnsext-fr-resolver-mitigations-04.tx=
t
>   http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-reid-dnsext-aleatoric-00.txt
>   http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-weaver-dnsext-fr-comprehensive-00.txt
>=20
>http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-wijngaards-dnsext-resolver-side-mitigation-0=
0.txt
>   http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hubert-ulevitch-edns-ping-00
>   http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vixie-dnsext-dns0x20-00
>
>If we forgot any please reply to this message with the link for the draft.
>
>The forum is now open for discussion.
>We propose that you start a new thread for each subject rather than just=
 reply
>to this message, in the Subject line put
>         FR: Topic
>
>As far as we can tell the ideas contained in the drafts can be summarized=
 into
>following rough categories:
>         Packet acceptance
>         Data admission
>         Data integrity checks
>         Attack detection
>
>Please use these words in your messages to facilitate clearer=
 understanding.
>Feel free to propose new categories.
>
>In Minneapolis the WG is scheduled to meet on Tuesday afternoon.
>The chairs have asked for a small meeting room on Monday (during one
>of the first 2 sessions) and on Tuesday morning for a "design" team to=
 meet.
>If you want to be invited to these meetings send us an e-mail, we want to
>get a broad balance of expertise and experience in that room.
>The "design" team will present the recommendations (if any) at the
>Working Group meeting.
>
>         Olafur and Andrew
>
>At 12:22 04/09/2008, =D3lafur Gu=F0mundsson /DNSEXT wrote:
>
>
>>The WG has had 2 months to learn about the issues and kick ideas around.
>>At this point the discussion has reach the point of diminishing returns.
>>The discussion needs to become more focused!
>>
>>The chairs propose following plan to make progress:
>>0. Discussion on namedroppers on ideas without drafts comes to an end.
>>    If you need to ask a clarifying question, please put the tag [CLARIFY]=
 in
>>    your Subject: line.
>>
>>1. By September 30'th  everyone that has ideas they want to share
>>    should have an ID published.
>>    suggested names for drafts: draft-<editor>-dnsext-fr-<name>-xx.txt
>>
>>2. During October the WG will discuss the ideas and recommendations from=
 the
>>    drafts.  Editors are encouraged to update their drafts frequently=
 during
>>    this window based on the discussions.
>>
>>3. During November the WG will select from the ideas on what to recommend=
 as
>>    the extended Forgery Resilience approach.
>>    The chairs plan to have a special session early in the week at the=
 IETF
>>    meeting for interested parties to hash out what makes sense.
>>    Recommendations from that session will be proposed to the WG at
>>    the official WG meeting.
>>
>>4. If the WG does not reach a rough consensus by late November the chairs
>>    may form a design team to come up with a recommendation.
>>
>>5. An official WG document(s) will be submitted no later than early
>>    December.
>>    (we will need editors for this document(s))
>>
>>6. By late January we will have WGLC on the document(s).
>>    The document(s) will be advanced to the IESG by March 1'st.
>>
>>Based on this plan, please stop all Forgery=20
>>Resilience (FR) discussion right now.
>>If you are not writing down your FR ideas in a draft,
>>please review and comment on the following WG last calls:
>>
>>http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2008/msg01190.html
>>http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2008/msg01430.html
>>
>>         Olafur and Andrew

--=====================_68823973==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<body>
<font size=3D3>Dear colleagues <br>
It has been rather quiet on the mailing list on this topic. <br>
So far only 3 people have volunteered to be on the design team. <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Nicholas
Weaver<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Matt
Larson<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>David
Blacka<br>
The chairs are looking for a design team that includes people from<br>
different backgrounds and experiences. In particular we are looking<br>
for volunteers from the ISP and non-TLD authorative server side. <br>
(contact me privately if you want to be included, only vetted
volunteers<br>
will get the magic email telling them the location of the design
team<br>
gathering). <br><br>
If you think this effort is important, please volunteer, or say on the
<br>
mailing list what your &quot;solution space would look like&quot; as a
template for<br>
the design team to look at.&nbsp; <br><br>
In addition if there are operational practices that we should recommend
please <br>
put them forward as well. <br><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>thanks
<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Olafur
<br><br>
At 15:24 17/10/2008, =D3lafur Gu=F0mundsson /DNSEXT wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite=3D"">Dear colleagues,<br><br>
Thank you for taking the suggestions below to heart and following the
plan.<br><br>
At this point we have following drafts submitted:<br>
&nbsp;
<a=
 href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-barwood-dnsext-fr-resolver-mitigatio=
ns-04.txt" eudora=3D"autourl">
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-barwood-dnsext-fr-resolver-mitigations-04.txt=
</a>
<br>
&nbsp;
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-reid-dnsext-aleatoric-00.txt" eudo=
ra=3D"autourl">
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-reid-dnsext-aleatoric-00.txt</a><br>
&nbsp;
<a=
 href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-weaver-dnsext-fr-comprehensive-00.tx=
t" eudora=3D"autourl">
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-weaver-dnsext-fr-comprehensive-00.txt</a>
<br>
&nbsp;
<a=
 href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-wijngaards-dnsext-resolver-side-miti=
gation-00.txt" eudora=3D"autourl">
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-wijngaards-dnsext-resolver-side-mitigation-00=
.txt</a>
<br>
&nbsp;
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hubert-ulevitch-edns-ping-00" eu=
dora=3D"autourl">
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hubert-ulevitch-edns-ping-00</a><br>
&nbsp;
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vixie-dnsext-dns0x20-00" eudora=
=3D"autourl">
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vixie-dnsext-dns0x20-00</a><br><br>
If we forgot any please reply to this message with the link for the
draft.<br><br>
The forum is now open for discussion.<br>
We propose that you start a new thread for each subject rather than just
reply<br>
to this message, in the Subject line put<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; FR: Topic<br><br>
As far as we can tell the ideas contained in the drafts can be summarized
into<br>
following rough categories:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Packet acceptance<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Data admission<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Data integrity checks<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Attack detection<br><br>
Please use these words in your messages to facilitate clearer
understanding.<br>
Feel free to propose new categories.<br><br>
In Minneapolis the WG is scheduled to meet on Tuesday afternoon.<br>
The chairs have asked for a small meeting room on Monday (during one<br>
of the first 2 sessions) and on Tuesday morning for a &quot;design&quot;
team to meet.<br>
If you want to be invited to these meetings send us an e-mail, we want
to<br>
get a broad balance of expertise and experience in that room.<br>
The &quot;design&quot; team will present the recommendations (if any) at
the<br>
Working Group meeting.<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Olafur and Andrew<br><br>
At 12:22 04/09/2008, =D3lafur Gu=F0mundsson /DNSEXT wrote:<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite=3D"">The WG has had 2 months to le=
arn
about the issues and kick ideas around.<br>
At this point the discussion has reach the point of diminishing
returns.<br>
The discussion needs to become more focused!<br><br>
The chairs propose following plan to make progress:<br>
0. Discussion on namedroppers on ideas without drafts comes to an
end.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; If you need to ask a clarifying question, please put the tag
[CLARIFY] in<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; your Subject: line.<br><br>
1. By September 30'th&nbsp; everyone that has ideas they want to
share<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; should have an ID published.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; suggested names for drafts:
draft-&lt;editor&gt;-dnsext-fr-&lt;name&gt;-xx.txt<br><br>
2. During October the WG will discuss the ideas and recommendations from
the<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; drafts.&nbsp; Editors are encouraged to update their drafts
frequently during<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; this window based on the discussions.<br><br>
3. During November the WG will select from the ideas on what to recommend
as<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; the extended Forgery Resilience approach.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; The chairs plan to have a special session early in the week
at the IETF<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; meeting for interested parties to hash out what makes
sense.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Recommendations from that session will be proposed to the WG
at<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; the official WG meeting.<br><br>
4. If the WG does not reach a rough consensus by late November the
chairs<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; may form a design team to come up with a
recommendation.<br><br>
5. An official WG document(s) will be submitted no later than early<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; December.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; (we will need editors for this document(s))<br>
<br>
6. By late January we will have WGLC on the document(s).<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; The document(s) will be advanced to the IESG by March
1'st.<br><br>
Based on this plan, please stop all Forgery Resilience (FR) discussion
right now.<br>
If you are not writing down your FR ideas in a draft,<br>
please review and comment on the following WG last calls:<br><br>
<a=
 href=3D"http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2008/msg01190.h=
tml" eudora=3D"autourl">
http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2008/msg01190.html</a>
 <br>
<a=
 href=3D"http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2008/msg01430.h=
tml" eudora=3D"autourl">
http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2008/msg01430.html</a>
 <br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Olafur and
Andrew</font></blockquote></blockquote></body>
</html>

--=====================_68823973==.ALT--


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Wed Nov 12 12:45:26 2008
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References:
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 <82hc6mnlz0.fsf@mid.bfk.de> <20081111161723.GB34750@shinkuro.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 15:35:18 -0500
To: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] Zones suitable for AXFR
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
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It's good to have a few days at home and to catch=20
up on some reading.  I had missed this thread=20
until now.

At 11:17 -0500 11/11/08, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
>On Wed, Nov 05, 2008 at 06:04:03PM +0100, Florian Weimer wrote:
>
>>  I think it's fine to send a mix of multiple versions
>
>I don't think that's fine, and I think it would be a very bad idea to
>weaken at all the language in RFC 1035 sec 6.3.

I agree with Andrew.

What prompted me to mention zones "not suitable=20
for transfer" was a situation in which the data=20
being used in a response was cobbled from a few=20
non-DNS sources on demand in response to the=20
query.  (The data was then subsequently "cached"=20
for some number of minutes related to the nature=20
of the data.)  This is an example of a lookup=20
system that uses the data formats sent on the=20
wire into and out of port 53 (and the protocol=20
semantics) but does not conform to our=20
conventional wisdom of what constitutes an=20
authoritative name server.

It isn't the situation that there are multiple=20
versions of a zone live at anytime.  Just as each=20
dynamic update unit (for what ever a unit means)=20
increments the serial number, each modification=20
of the cache of authoritative data changes the=20
serial number of the "zone."  In such a=20
situation, an AXFR reply is pretty much=20
meaningless - I mean - you could create one but=20
due to the dynamic nature of the zone, it has no=20
value.

(Imagine NSEC or NSEC3'ing this zone!)

So, what was written in -09 wasn't meant to issue=20
a challenge to what was in RFC1035/6.3 but a=20
reflection of a use of the DNS not anticipated at=20
the time of that document.

>The problem I have with this is that there is currently one actor that
>can introduce inconsistency, and that's the zone administrator (maybe

There really can't be any inconsistency because=20
there's no notion of consistency.  It's just that=20
you can't put your arms around the collection.=20
It's like trying to identify every person in a=20
country at any one point - births, deaths,=20
immigration, emigration, etc.  Or like that thing=20
in physics class where the instant you try to=20
measure a system you change it.

(Trying to seem educated, I'll thrown in this reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr=F6dinger's_cat

I think it relates to what I'm trying to say.=20
Exercise to the bored and otherwise unoccupied=20
reader. If anyone tells me I'm wrong, I'll not be=20
insulted and actually heartened to know someone=20
read this far.)

>due to automated tools that update the zone data without updating the
>SOA serial number).  The proposal to allow continued flow of AXFR when
>the underlying data changes introduces a completely new actor into the
>mix: the transferring server itself.  In such a case, it is
>indeterminite even from the point of view of the administrator when an
>inconsistent version of the zone could show up.

By "not suitable for transfer" I mean there is no=20
flow of AXFR, none at all, therefore no chance=20
for any inconsistency.

E.g., what's wrong with this?:

Time 0: Q: www.example.tld/IN/A =3D=3D> R: www.example.tld/IN/A/127.0.0.1
Time 1: Q: example.tld/IN/AXFR =3D=3D> R: example.tld/IN/SOA, NS set, and=
 SOA again
Time 2: Q: www.example.tld/IN/A =3D=3D> R: www.example.tld/IN/A/127.0.0.1

It could be the result of this:

1) Query/Response for the address
2) Dynamic delete of the address
3) Query/Response for the AXFR (showing an empty/minimal zone)
4) Dynamic addition of the address (back as it was before)
5) Query/Response for the address

>If we approach the DNS as a distributed database, then introducing new
>vectors for consistency failure seems to me like a bad idea --
>especially ones where nobody can say with certainty when the
>consistency failure could happen.

"...introducing new vectors for ... failure" is "a bad idea". ;)
-- 
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D=
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Never confuse activity with progress.  Activity pays more.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Thu Nov 13 12:54:58 2008
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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 21:47:59 +0100
From: bert hubert <bert.hubert@netherlabs.nl>
To: ?lafur Gu?mundsson /DNSEXT chair <ogud@ogud.com>
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Time-line for forgery resilience phase #2
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Ok, this is somewhat of a tricky post since my own draft is among the ones
circulated. Additionally, some of the criticism I voice below applies
to the original forgery-resilience draft as well.

So take the below with more than a single grain of salt.

Sadly it appears we have not found the magic bullet, where magic bullet is
defined as a clear solution that can help us quickly. This rules out
anything that takes a lot of parties and time to deploy, or anything that is
more of a 'strategy' than a clear cut solution.

0x20 is nice, but breaks some stuff. Repeating queries is nice but breaks
some stuff. Determining if we are under attack is nice, but is a DoS vector
in some circumstances. Getting smart with disregarding parts of answers is
nice, but is not a perfect solution, plus might break some stuff. Etc etc.

Summarising, I think the current state of affairs does not allow us to write
a draft that recommends full solutions. Sadly, the best we can do right now
is standardise things that will give implementors the tools to implement
working strategies, strategies which are unkown right now.

There is some room for a concise document outlining simple things that help
a lot though.

Looking at the drafts below:

> At this point we have following drafts submitted:
>  http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-barwood-dnsext-fr-resolver-mitigations-04.txt

Describes a number of valuable strategies, and mandates some others.
Unsure if it would reach consensus.

>  http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-weaver-dnsext-fr-comprehensive-00.txt

Outlines a lot of theory. Reads like an academic paper. Does not mandate
anything, or at least not in capital letters.

>  http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-reid-dnsext-aleatoric-00.txt
>  http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hubert-ulevitch-edns-ping-00

Both of these provide a way to add more entropy to a query, making it far
harder to spoof answers. One of these drafts uses a new record type, the
other (mine) a new EDNS0 option. Jim Reid did a great job finding a novel
and very hackish way of stuffing in said entropy.

The interesting thing about the above two drafts is that they only provide a
portal which can be used to develop further spoofing resilience. The
strategy of how to use these methods is left up to the caching nameserver
implementations, and this strategy is therefore free to evolve over time.

>  http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-wijngaards-dnsext-resolver-side-mitigation-00.txt

I find this draft to be concise, and it provides a nice mix between theory,
recommendations and exhortations. 

>  http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vixie-dnsext-dns0x20-00

0x20 is an impressive hack, but does not provide any protection for
numerical domains like '123.', and only two bits for '123.nl'. In this
sense, it is a very limited measure - as it leaves TLDs especially
vulnerable.

What would be good is to slip in somewhere that all responding
implementations MUST do a bitwise copy of the request name. Implementations
are then free to act on the liberty they've gained to assume that complying
responders will do a proper copy.

Summarising, I'd prefer to focus our attention on: 

	1) Wouter's document, since it is brief and has the potential to reach
	consensus.

	2) One of the two ways to add entropy to queries (aleatoric,
	   edns-ping)

An optimum might be reached if Wouter's document would contain a line like
'responders MUST perform a bitwise copy of the query name'. This would open
the door over time for people to rely on 0x20.

Kind regards,

Bert

-- 
http://www.PowerDNS.com      Open source, database driven DNS Software 
http://netherlabs.nl              Open and Closed source services

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Thu Nov 13 14:10:50 2008
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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:05:40 -0500
From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>
To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft agenda for IETF 73
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Dear colleagues,

Based on some additional feedback (received indirectly, at that), I've
adjusted the agenda again.  This version cuts down on administrative
business of the WG on the grounds that none of the current editors had
much to say, and expands other parts of the agenda.  We've also moved
the additional forgery-resilience discussion up because it's
continuing WG business, and we've moved to after that the proposed new
work.  

Best regards,

Andrew

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@shinkuro.com
Shinkuro, Inc.

--W5WqUoFLvi1M7tJE
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Agenda for the meeting of the DNS Extensions Working Group
IETF 73
Minneapolis, US
2008-11-18 15:20-1700 CST

1.  Minutes and Jabber scribes (2 min)

2.  Note well (2 min)                                           15:22

3.  WG status                                                   15:24

    3.1  Drafts published (1 min)
    3.2  RFC ed. queue  (2 min)
         a.  draft-ietf-dnsext-2929bis
    3.3  IESG processing (2 min)
         a.  draft-ietf-dnsext-forgery-resilience
    3.4  Documents in/past WGLC (5 min)                         15:30
         a.  draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname 
         b.  draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-rsasha256
    3.5  Current WG documents (5 min)                           15:35
         a.  draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-bis-updates
             - editor has asked not to discuss: updates pending
         b.  draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify
             - editor has asked not to discuss, because no
               comments on list.  Please comment!
         c.  draft-ietf-dnsext-tsig-md5-deprecated
             - no update before meeting.  Updates coming to address 
               previous comments.
         d.  draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-trans
    3.6  Expired WG documents (5 min)                           15:40
         a.  draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2671bis-edns0
         b.  draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile
             - dead
             - work to be salvaged to be discussed below
               (new work -- -bellis- draft)
    3.7  Expert evaluation (8 min)                              15:45
         a.  draft-donnerhacke-sidr-bgp-verification-dnssec
             (ASSET)
         b.  draft-cheshire-dnsext-multicastdns-07.txt
             (NEGATIVE)
         c.  comments on how new procedure working so far?

4.  Further forgery resilience work (30 min)                    15:53

The WG will be presented with the results of some discussion among
draft authors.  The following drafts are the basis of that discussion:

draft-barwood-dnsext-fr-resolver-mitigations
draft-reid-dnsext-aleatoric
draft-vixie-dnsext-dns0x20 
draft-weaver-dnsext-fr-comprehensive 
draft-wijngaards-dnsext-resolver-side-mitigation

5.  Proposed WG work (28 min)                                   16:23
    Excludes further forgery resilience work

    4.1   draft-bellis-dnsext-dnsproxy-00 (10 min) 
    4.2   draft-bagnulo-behave-dns64 (10 min)
    4.4   draft-andrews-dnsext-expire (4 min)
    4.4   draft-crocker-dnssec-algo-signal (4 min) 
    

6.  A.O.B. (8 min)                                              16:50

7.  Blue sheets & adjourn (2 min)                               17:00

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Thu Nov 13 15:42:28 2008
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Time-line for forgery resilience phase #2
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:35:56 -0800
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My kg of salt as well.

On Nov 13, 2008, at 12:47 PM, bert hubert wrote:
> 0x20 is nice, but breaks some stuff. Repeating queries is nice but  
> breaks
> some stuff. Determining if we are under attack is nice, but is a DoS  
> vector
> in some circumstances.

Repeating queries does not break anything if the model is "Return the  
results of a THIRD query if no agreement on the first two RRSets or  
all three RRSets" for generating two duplicate requests.

For such cases, if the real authority is NON-volatile and you are  
under attack, the attacker has to win one of two races and then a  
subsequent race:  with K bits of entropy, this ends up being roughly 1  
in 2^(2k-1), which is the entropy increase duplication tries to get you.

If the real authority is nonvolatile, it just resolves fine with two  
parallel queries, so it sees more load but is otherwise unaffected as  
the name resolves correctly in the same amount of time.

IF the real authority is volatile, it sees three queries instead of  
one, so it sees more load but is otherwise unaffected: all names  
resolve correctly, and it sees only one additional RTT to resolve the  
name (as the first two queries can be done in parallel).

> Getting smart with disregarding parts of answers is
> nice, but is not a perfect solution, plus might break some stuff.  
> Etc etc.


If you are referring to the scoping-model of bailywick checking I  
proposed (and Unbound attempts to approximate), it actually does the  
opposite:  it allows you to safely resolve some pathological cases  
which you can not resolve with the current bailywick-acceptance model.


>> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-reid-dnsext-aleatoric-00.txt
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hubert-ulevitch-edns-ping-00
>
> Both of these provide a way to add more entropy to a query, making  
> it far
> harder to spoof answers. One of these drafts uses a new record type,  
> the
> other (mine) a new EDNS0 option. Jim Reid did a great job finding a  
> novel
> and very hackish way of stuffing in said entropy.
>
> The interesting thing about the above two drafts is that they only  
> provide a
> portal which can be used to develop further spoofing resilience. The
> strategy of how to use these methods is left up to the caching  
> nameserver
> implementations, and this strategy is therefore free to evolve over  
> time.

Any change which requires changes to ALL or a large number of  
authoritative servers should be considered a non-starter.  If you can  
get authorities to change behavior, get them to turn on DNSSEC.



Finally, since there was a complaint on my draft about not including  
CAPS recommendations (when I was drafting it, I was encouraged by a  
colleague NOT to include the caps-words because it can trigger  
needless debate).  But since they are wanted, here they are:

It would be a good idea (slightly less than SHOULD, in the "Useful but  
not critical"):  A recursive resolver should treat a "changed  
duplicate response" (two responses for the same transaction with  
different values) as an attack, void any cache entry associated with  
this, as this gives an out-of-band signal of attack, and as validation  
shows this is very rare.  The stateholding is actually reasonable, but  
there are some objections on that, thus it should only be in the "good  
idea" category.


SHOULD:  A stub resolver SHOULD treat "changed duplicate response" as  
an attack, as the stateholding requirements are trivial at this level  
to do this detection, and this gives an implicit signal that recursive  
resolvers can use to signal problems.


SHOULD:  A recursive resolver SHOULD institute scoping rules or data  
validation:  the cost is reasonably low (verified by trace-based  
analysis), it does not cause errors on resolution, and it enables any  
authority which desires it to gain a far larger protection for its  
names (because TTL becomes meaningful again, even just 60s TTLs  
magnify attacker time by about 100x with reasonable network RTTs).


SHOULD:  A recursive resolver SHOULD detect when it is under blind  
attack and do something (this needs to be discussed in more detail  
monday/tuesday, both Barwood and Kaminski have proposed duplication.   
I've initially resisted this, but the more I think about it, the more  
they may be right.   And I don't think its a succesful DOS vector)


MUST:  A recursive resolver which is attempting to increase entropy  
through various means MUST verify that it is not being stripped out by  
some middlebox by performing queries to a customized authority.


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Thu Nov 13 16:21:12 2008
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On Nov 13, 2008, at 3:35 PM, Nicholas Weaver wrote:

> My kg of salt as well.
>
> On Nov 13, 2008, at 12:47 PM, bert hubert wrote:
>> 0x20 is nice, but breaks some stuff. Repeating queries is nice but  
>> breaks
>> some stuff. Determining if we are under attack is nice, but is a  
>> DoS vector
>> in some circumstances.
>
> Repeating queries does not break anything if the model is "Return  
> the results of a THIRD query if no agreement on the first two RRSets  
> or all three RRSets" for generating two duplicate requests.
>
> For such cases, if the real authority is NON-volatile and you are  
> under attack, the attacker has to win one of two races and then a  
> subsequent race:  with K bits of entropy, this ends up being roughly  
> 1 in 2^(2k-1), which is the entropy increase duplication tries to  
> get you.
>
> If the real authority is nonvolatile, it just resolves fine with two  
> parallel queries, so it sees more load but is otherwise unaffected  
> as the name resolves correctly in the same amount of time.
>
> IF the real authority is volatile, it sees three queries instead of  
> one, so it sees more load but is otherwise unaffected: all names  
> resolve correctly, and it sees only one additional RTT to resolve  
> the name (as the first two queries can be done in parallel).

OOPS. This doesn't work on volatile authorities, never mind.



>> Getting smart with disregarding parts of answers is
>> nice, but is not a perfect solution, plus might break some stuff.  
>> Etc etc.
>
>
> If you are referring to the scoping-model of bailywick checking I  
> proposed (and Unbound attempts to approximate), it actually does the  
> opposite:  it allows you to safely resolve some pathological cases  
> which you can not resolve with the current bailywick-acceptance model.
>
>
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-reid-dnsext-aleatoric-00.txt
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hubert-ulevitch-edns-ping-00
>>
>> Both of these provide a way to add more entropy to a query, making  
>> it far
>> harder to spoof answers. One of these drafts uses a new record  
>> type, the
>> other (mine) a new EDNS0 option. Jim Reid did a great job finding a  
>> novel
>> and very hackish way of stuffing in said entropy.
>>
>> The interesting thing about the above two drafts is that they only  
>> provide a
>> portal which can be used to develop further spoofing resilience. The
>> strategy of how to use these methods is left up to the caching  
>> nameserver
>> implementations, and this strategy is therefore free to evolve over  
>> time.
>
> Any change which requires changes to ALL or a large number of  
> authoritative servers should be considered a non-starter.  If you  
> can get authorities to change behavior, get them to turn on DNSSEC.
>
>
>
> Finally, since there was a complaint on my draft about not including  
> CAPS recommendations (when I was drafting it, I was encouraged by a  
> colleague NOT to include the caps-words because it can trigger  
> needless debate).  But since they are wanted, here they are:
>
> It would be a good idea (slightly less than SHOULD, in the "Useful  
> but not critical"):  A recursive resolver should treat a "changed  
> duplicate response" (two responses for the same transaction with  
> different values) as an attack, void any cache entry associated with  
> this, as this gives an out-of-band signal of attack, and as  
> validation shows this is very rare.  The stateholding is actually  
> reasonable, but there are some objections on that, thus it should  
> only be in the "good idea" category.
>
>
> SHOULD:  A stub resolver SHOULD treat "changed duplicate response"  
> as an attack, as the stateholding requirements are trivial at this  
> level to do this detection, and this gives an implicit signal that  
> recursive resolvers can use to signal problems.
>
>
> SHOULD:  A recursive resolver SHOULD institute scoping rules or data  
> validation:  the cost is reasonably low (verified by trace-based  
> analysis), it does not cause errors on resolution, and it enables  
> any authority which desires it to gain a far larger protection for  
> its names (because TTL becomes meaningful again, even just 60s TTLs  
> magnify attacker time by about 100x with reasonable network RTTs).
>
>
> SHOULD:  A recursive resolver SHOULD detect when it is under blind  
> attack and do something (this needs to be discussed in more detail  
> monday/tuesday, both Barwood and Kaminski have proposed  
> duplication.  I've initially resisted this, but the more I think  
> about it, the more they may be right.   And I don't think its a  
> succesful DOS vector)
>
>
> MUST:  A recursive resolver which is attempting to increase entropy  
> through various means MUST verify that it is not being stripped out  
> by some middlebox by performing queries to a customized authority.
>
>
> --
> to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org  
> with
> the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
> archive: <http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/>


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>From the DNSEXT WG agenda:

5.  Proposed WG work (28 min)                                   16:23
    Excludes further forgery resilience work

    ...
    4.4   draft-crocker-dnssec-algo-signal (4 min)

The draft is still active in the Internet-Drafts database:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-crocker-dnssec-algo-signal-01.txt

Please feel free to suggest ways to change the general operation:  The
goal is to have a way for validating end clients signal which algorithms
they prefer to servers.  We suggest an EDNS flag but are open to
anything that would be a better solution.

Scott/Steve
co-editors of the draft

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Fri Nov 14 05:33:16 2008
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From: Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de>
To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: [dnsext] Clarification of RFC 4035, Section 4.3
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 14:29:05 +0100
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Reviewing RFC 4035, I noticed that the terms defined in section 4.3
are not used in the rest of the document.  In particular, outside this
section, the term "bad" or "BAD" is used, which is probably the same
thing as "Bogus".  This seems to be an editorial mistake, but one that
can lead to diverging implementation behavior.

Is the reading Bogus == BAD the intended one?

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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 09:23:24 -0500
From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>
To: IETF DNSEXT WG <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-crocker-dnssec-algo-signal as WG item
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On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 07:56:31AM -0500, Scott Rose wrote:
> >From the DNSEXT WG agenda:
> 
> 5.  Proposed WG work (28 min)                                   16:23
>     Excludes further forgery resilience work
> 
>     ...
>     4.4   draft-crocker-dnssec-algo-signal (4 min)
> 
> The draft is still active in the Internet-Drafts database:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-crocker-dnssec-algo-signal-01.txt
> 
> Please feel free to suggest ways to change the general operation:  The
> goal is to have a way for validating end clients signal which algorithms
> they prefer to servers.  We suggest an EDNS flag but are open to
> anything that would be a better solution.

This draft has also not, as far as my records show, been adopted as a
DNSEXT item.  We did have a previous request for adoption, however.
If you support adopting the draft by the working group, please say so.
If you are willing to work on it (== review it through to completion),
please say so as well.  Without at least five committed reviewers, we
can't adopt it, since we won't have enough reviewers committed for
WGLC.

Best regards,

Andrew

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@shinkuro.com
Shinkuro, Inc.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Fri Nov 14 11:36:10 2008
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From: Nicholas Weaver <nweaver@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU>
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Subject: [dnsext] My Final Thoughts/Conclusions for forgery resistance...
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:26:44 -0800
Cc: Nicholas Weaver <nweaver@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU>
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these are my personal thoughts/recommendations for the IETF meeting,  
based on all that has gone on in the list and in various people's IDs.


The big Big BIG deal stuff:

Recursive and stub resolvers MUST have at least 30b of entropy in each  
query.

[One other issue to be discussed in person]


The big deal stuff:

Recursive and stub resolvers SHOULD have at least 40b of entropy in  
each query.  This makes attacks require a better part of a  
terapacket.  Even over GigE, it would take ~4 days to launch such an  
attack with no other protections.

Recursive and stub resolvers SHOULD contact a properly constructed  
authority to check if entropy sources (eg, port #, IP address, 0x20)  
are being removed upon startup and upon changing IP address.


If duplication is used to generate a query with additional entropy,  
the following policy SHOULD be used: [1]

a)  If both responses agree, accept the response into the cache and  
return it.
b)  If both responses have an overlap on the returned RRSet, accept  
and return the intersection of the two RRsets

c)  If there is no intersection between the returned RRSets, generate  
a THIRD query:
c1)  If two of the three responses have overlap on the returned  
RRSets, accept and return the intersection of the two RRSets
c2)  If there is no overlap between all three RRSets, DO NOT cache any  
value, return a randomly selected one of the responses with TTL=0.


Any volatile authority (one which would return different responses to  
back-to-back queries for the same resource from the same remote host)  
is strongly encouraged to ensure that, if the same remote resolver  
conducts two or more queries for the same record within a 1 second  
time-window, the remote resolver will receive responses which at least  
have some overlap in their RRSets.  Note that as long as such  
authorities are returning records with TTL !=0, they are not actually  
benefiting from being volatile.  Without such a change, the  
authority's responses would resolve but not cache.


If a resolver is using 0x20 to increase query entropy, it MUST use  
either a random string or a pseudo-random function (preferably HMAC)  
to generate the random string used for xor'ing with the query name.  [2]


Recursive resolvers MUST NOT return a valid response for a dotless  
name unless specifically configured to do so.



Less important but IMO still very valuable:

Recursive and stub resolvers SHOULD implement scoping rules or an  
approximation thereof (eg, Unbound) on glue acceptance to eliminate  
race-until-win attacks and other cache-poisoning attacks.  [3]


Less important:

Resolvers MAY interpret "changed duplicate response" (two valid  
responses to the same query but with different values) as an attack,  
and may void the cache entry for the response.  If interpreting this  
as an attack, a recursive resolver should also forward the second  
response to the originating client, with the TTL changed to 0 seconds,  
to act as an indicator of a detected attack.




[1]  This policy has the following effect when not under attack:  If  
an authority is not volatile (returns consistent responses), it will  
always resolve and cache properly, and this will not add latency as  
the first two queries can be conducted in parallel.  If an authority  
is volatile, it will resolve but not cache and experience higher load,  
and will also experience one additional RTT of latency when resolving  
a name.

When under attack, if the authority is not volatile, the attacker  
needs to win two races out of three, creating an effective query  
entropy greater than 2k-2 for protecting both the transaction and cache.

When under attack, if the authority is volatile, the attacker needs to  
win two races out of three to affect the cache, creating an effective  
query entropy greater than 2k-2 for protecting the cache.  In order to  
affect the transaction, the attacker needs to win the randomly  
selected race, giving an effective entropy of k for protecting the  
transaction.

Thus this duplication strategy provides both transaction and cache  
protection for non-volatile names, and cache protection for volatile  
names, while not reducing transaction protection for volatile names.


Also, duplication is only needed if the remote authority doesn't  
support 0x20, the full name in question is less than 8 characters with  
0x20, or if the recursive resolver is behind an entropy-stripping  
device (a NAT), to achieve the 40b target entropy.  The other case for  
duplication is as a response in a detection-and-response cycle when a  
resolver detects that it is under attack.




[2] Hovav Shacham and I have a small draftlet of text on how to do  
this and why written in the past week as an outgrowth of a discussion  
with David Dagon at CCS, but we can't put it up on the IETF site until  
monday.  Its not really designed to be standalone, but as a piece of  
text with additional justification to include in the 0x20 document  
should this become an RFC.

Temporarily, a copy is available at http://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/~nweaver/draft-weaver-dnsext-0x20-string-selection-00.txt 
  .  HMAC allows the 0x20 process to be stateless.



[3] This COMPLEMENTS increasing query entropy:  Increased query  
entropy increases attacker work in PACKETS.  No race-until-win  
increases attacker work in TIME to target an individual name.  Eg,  
with a TTL of just 1 second, and a RTT to the legit authority of  
200ms, no-race-until-win means that targeting a single name protected  
by 40b of entropy on a GigE requires 20 days instead of 4.  With a TTL  
of 60 seconds, targeting a single name now requires 3 years.

If no response is received for a name, there should be an implicit TTL  
of 60 seconds before that name would be queried again (prevents any  
incentive for blocking the legitimate authority.).


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Fri Nov 14 12:04:14 2008
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] My Final Thoughts/Conclusions for forgery resistance...
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 19:58:41 +0000
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On Nov 14, 2008, at 19:26, Nicholas Weaver wrote:

> Recursive and stub resolvers MUST have at least 30b of entropy in  
> each query.

Why 30b? What numbers do you have to back this up?



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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Fri Nov 14 12:20:41 2008
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] My Final Thoughts/Conclusions for forgery resistance...
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 12:16:38 -0800
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On Nov 14, 2008, at 11:58 AM, Jim Reid wrote:

>
> On Nov 14, 2008, at 19:26, Nicholas Weaver wrote:
>
>> Recursive and stub resolvers MUST have at least 30b of entropy in  
>> each query.
>
> Why 30b? What numbers do you have to back this up?

30b requires ~1/2 a gigapacket to have a reasonable expectation of  
poisoning an entry.  For a 100 Mbps connection to the recursive  
resolver, this requires ~1+ hour to corrupt a single name with no race- 
until-win protection, and a VERY noticeable amount of traffic (a  
nontrivial DOS attack).

If you DO have race-until-win protection and the attacker is targeting  
a name with a 60s TTL, an attacker with 100 Mbps requires 300 hours to  
corrupt a singly targeted name.

And sending a spoofed gigapacket of UDP is not cheap, even for a botnet.

More importantly, as long as there are significant numbers of  
resolvers who DON'T randomize their source port (16b of entropy),  
nobody will actually bother attacking the resolvers with ~30b of  
entropy anyway unless there is a specific reason for targeting THAT  
resolver, while actually gaining 30b of entropy is straightforward  
(port randomization is sufficient).

30b also gives plenty of safety margin if you are doing a detection &  
response strategy, where response is duplication (which gets 58b of  
entropy in that case)


It actually takes ~27b in many cases to blind-RST attack a TCP flow,  
as ACKs aren't checked and most TCP stacks are predictable in port  
creation and accept any in-window RST.



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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Sun Nov 16 14:52:26 2008
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Time-line for forgery resilience phase #2
References: <200810172024.m9HKOaMV058562@stora.ogud.com> <20081113204759.GL4821@outpost.ds9a.nl> <D49CDF90-C573-4EE9-B9D8-63309950C857@icsi.berkeley.edu>
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Nicholas Weaver wrote:
> 
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-reid-dnsext-aleatoric-00.txt
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hubert-ulevitch-edns-ping-00
>>
>> Both of these provide a way to add more entropy to a query, making it far
>> harder to spoof answers.

> Any change which requires changes to ALL or a large number of
> authoritative servers should be considered a non-starter.  

You're right in terms of a resolver-only, short-term fix.

> If you can
> get authorities to change behavior, get them to turn on DNSSEC.

This is IMHO wrong.

A patch to implement e.g. edns-ping is a trivial software update which
can be automatically rolled out on a huge number of platforms as
part of an automatic system update. (e.g. a new debian package, or via
windows update) The humans operating the nameserver don't have to think
about this as long as it's turned on by default.

DNSSEC requires a change in not only software (and in some cases, not just
an update, but a product change), but also in procedures, responsibilities,
interfaces to the registrar, perhaps internal interfaces regarding
sub-domains, combined with a host of new pitfalls (key rollover, lost keys,
...)

This so reminds me of Star Trek: They have these nice high-tech
anti-gravity shock absorbers to keep the effects of foreign forces
from reaching the crew. Invariably though, the first foreign photon
torpedo will jolt everybody out of their chairs on the bridge because they
forgot to install such low-tech devices like seat-belts.

According to my latest numbers from Austria, about 90% of the queries
towards the .at nameservers come from nameservers implementing some form
of port randomization. The not quite that trivial upgrade following the
July announcement was thus indeed rolled out on a rather broad scale.
That still is not as good as one might hope (especially when looking at
nameservers, not queries), but it gives reason to believe that a simple
EDNS0 patch has a good change of seeing wide deployment within a year.

DNSSEC uptake is probably by at least an order of magnitude slower.

I strongly recommend we install seat-belt regardless of whether we manage
to get the anti-grav shock absorbers in place.

/ol
-- 
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Sun Nov 16 21:36:17 2008
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Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 21:29:42 -0800
From: Stuart Cheshire <cheshire@apple.com>
Subject: [dnsext] EDNS0 Option Code
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I'm planning to request a new EDNS0 Option Code from IANA, and I  
thought it would make sense to run the idea by this group first. I'll  
be in the dnsext meeting on Tuesday to answer any questions in person.

The new option code is for something I'm calling a sleep proxy.

The idea of "Wake On LAN Magic Packet" has been around for more than  
ten years, but so far it's had limited use.

The idea of my sleep proxy is that when a host (that supports DNS-SD/ 
mDNS) goes to sleep, it uses DNS Update to transfer its DNS-SD records  
to a sleep proxy on the same link (which it discovers using DNS-SD/ 
mDNS). At the end of the DNS Update packet it adds an EDNS0 OPT record  
in the additional section, containing an EDNS0 "owner" sub-option.

An EDNS0 "owner" sub-option looks like this:

1 byte: version (currently 0; allows compatible future enhancements to  
this EDNS0 option)
1 byte: sequence number (starts at zero, and increments each time the  
host wakes from sleep)
6 bytes: MAC address.

The sleep proxy server records the DNS records in the DNS Update  
Query, and tags them with the MAC address from the EDNS0 "owner" sub- 
option. The sleep proxy answers queries on behalf of the sleeping  
machine, and when it sees traffic which warrants waking the sleeping  
host, it sends a "Wake On LAN Magic Packet" to the sleeping machine's  
MAC address to wake it up.

Stuart Cheshire <cheshire@apple.com>
* Wizard Without Portfolio, Apple Inc.
* Internet Architecture Board
* www.stuartcheshire.org


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Mon Nov 17 03:59:19 2008
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Subject: RE: [dnsext] Re: Time-line for forgery resilience phase #2
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 12:50:59 +0100
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org=20
> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Time-line for forgery resilience phase #2
>=20
> A patch to implement e.g. edns-ping is a trivial software update which
> can be automatically rolled out on a huge number of platforms as
> part of an automatic system update. (e.g. a new debian package, or via
> windows update) The humans operating the nameserver don't have to =
think
> about this as long as it's turned on by default.

And this is exactly where I have an issue.
Rolling out all these forgery resilience temporary solutions might be =
trivial, but rolling them back when they are not needed anymore is not. =
Once the code is out there, we're stuck with it. Even after DNSSEC has =
been widely deployed, which I believe is coming on steam right now.

One other thing about most forgery resilience solutions like edns-ping =
is that I don't see any any analysis on what these solutions might do to =
real live deployed DNS infrastructure. We don't live in an ideal world, =
and I fear that solutions like this will multiply the bad DNS traffic =
like dropcatching and MX scanning and any NXdomain queries more than =
regular traffic that do get an answer out of distributed authoritative =
servers or caches. The relative cost of answering those bad traffic =
queries will be mostly laid upon servers closer to the root like TLD =
servers. In the original design of the DNS and in an ideal world, =
queries should be distributed over the whole infrastructure, and I fear =
we might see that the extra traffic burden is focused on some particular =
points in the infrastructure to a point where we cannot talk about a =
distributed database anymore. That will harm the robustness of the DNS. =
We might be on our way to centralized databases instead of DNS. I would =
like to see that examined before we roll out code.

Antoin Verschuren

Technical Policy Advisor
SIDN
Utrechtseweg 310
PO Box 5022
6802 EA Arnhem
The Netherlands

T +31 26 3525500
F +31 26 3525505
M +31 6 23368970
E antoin.verschuren@sidn.nl
W http://www.sidn.nl/

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Mon Nov 17 09:28:33 2008
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] My Final Thoughts/Conclusions for forgery resistance...
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> c)  If there is no intersection between the returned RRSets, generate  a 
> THIRD query:
> c1)  If two of the three responses have overlap on the returned  RRSets, 
> accept and return the intersection of the two RRSets
> c2)  If there is no overlap between all three RRSets, DO NOT cache any 
> value, return a randomly selected one of the responses with TTL=0.

This last (c2) implies that when port randomization is unavailable,
protection may be only 16 bits.

It seems more logical to repeat until suitable protection is obtained, at
least for "essential" resource record sets. This is entirely practical, I
have been testing such a resolver now for more than a month with no
problems. I describe this in more detail in my draft

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-barwood-dnsext-fr-resolver-mitigations-08.txt
https://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/draft-barwood-dnsext-fr-resolver-mitigations/

Generally I agree that repetition is fundamental, although I prefer to
formulate it in a more general way.

It needs some programming effort to implement, but does work perfectly well.



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Subject: [dnsext] [DNSOP] (Off-Topic) DNSSEC Technical Testing update
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:59:06 -0500
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From: "Griffiths, Chris" <Chris_Griffiths@Cable.Comcast.com>
To: <dnsop@ietf.org>,
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Hello,

We launched another trial DNSSEC aware resolver today in our network.
The new server can be located at 68.87.69.154.

We have also updated our trial website with additional details in case
folks are curious:  http://www.dnssec.comcast.net

Thanks


Chris Griffiths
Comcast Cable Communications, Inc.




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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the DNS Extensions Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Measures for making DNS more resilient against forged answers
	Author(s)       : B. Hubert, R. Mook
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dnsext-forgery-resilience-08.txt
	Pages           : 25
	Date            : 2008-11-17

The current Internet climate poses serious threats to the Domain Name
System.  In the interim period before the DNS protocol can be secured
more fully, measures can already be taken to harden the DNS to make
'spoofing' a recursing nameserver many orders of magnitude harder.

Even a cryptographically secured DNS benefits from having the ability
to discard bogus responses quickly, as this potentially saves large
amounts of computation.

By describing certain behaviour that has previously not been
standardised, this document sets out how to make the DNS more
resilient against accepting incorrect responses.  This document
updates RFC 2128.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-forgery-resilience-08.txt

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Dear DNSEXT WG,

During an NSEC3 interoperability test we found a contradiction in RFC 
5155:

A NSEC3 record, that matches an Empty Non-Terminal, effectively has no 
type associated with it. This NSEC3 record has an empty type bit map. 
Section 3.2.1 contains the statement:

   Blocks with no types present MUST NOT be included.

However, the same section contains a regular expression:

   Type Bit Maps Field = ( Window Block # | Bitmap Length | Bitmap )+

The plus sign in the regular expression indicates that there is one or 
more of the preceding element. This means that there must be at least one 
window block. If this window block has no types, it contradicts with the 
first statement. Therefore, the correct text in RFC 5155 3.2.1 should be:

   Type Bit Maps Field = ( Window Block # | Bitmap Length | Bitmap )*

I suggest we add this to dnssec-bis updates (
draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-bis-updates-07), and we get this one character 
error in RFC5155 ERRATA posted on the rfc-editors site. 

If the suggested change is not satisfactory, I want better text by 
November 26th. At that point I'll brief the RFC editor and ask the chairs 
and the dnssec-bis editors to add it to dnssec-bis updates.

With Kind Regards,

Roy Arends
Senior Researcher
Nominet UK

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Mon Nov 17 16:14:21 2008
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From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@fdupont.fr>
To: "Roy Arends" <roy@nominet.org.uk>
cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dnsext] A contradiction in RFC 5155 
In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:57:47 CST.
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I support Roy's proposal.

Francis.Dupont@fdupont.fr

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Mon Nov 17 18:46:50 2008
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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 20:39:11 -0600
To: "Roy Arends" <roy@nominet.org.uk>
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] A contradiction in RFC 5155
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How about just submitting an errata to RFC 5155?

http://rfc-editor.org/how_to_report.html

At 16:57 -0600 11/17/08, Roy Arends wrote:
>Dear DNSEXT WG,
>
>During an NSEC3 interoperability test we found a contradiction in RFC
>5155:
>
>A NSEC3 record, that matches an Empty Non-Terminal, effectively has no
>type associated with it. This NSEC3 record has an empty type bit map.
>Section 3.2.1 contains the statement:
>
>    Blocks with no types present MUST NOT be included.
>
>However, the same section contains a regular expression:
>
>    Type Bit Maps Field = ( Window Block # | Bitmap Length | Bitmap )+
>
>The plus sign in the regular expression indicates that there is one or
>more of the preceding element. This means that there must be at least one
>window block. If this window block has no types, it contradicts with the
>first statement. Therefore, the correct text in RFC 5155 3.2.1 should be:
>
>    Type Bit Maps Field = ( Window Block # | Bitmap Length | Bitmap )*
>
>I suggest we add this to dnssec-bis updates (
>draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-bis-updates-07), and we get this one character
>error in RFC5155 ERRATA posted on the rfc-editors site.
>
>If the suggested change is not satisfactory, I want better text by
>November 26th. At that point I'll brief the RFC editor and ask the chairs
>and the dnssec-bis editors to add it to dnssec-bis updates.
>
>With Kind Regards,
>
>Roy Arends
>Senior Researcher
>Nominet UK
>
>--
>to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
>the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
>archive: <http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/>

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NeuStar

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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Gu=F0mundsson?= /DNSEXT 
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] A contradiction in RFC 5155
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Roy is going to do that,
he is just asking for working group  to sign of the text of the errata.
To increase the chances that future implementors find this corrections the
WG chairs decided to both include the errata in the RFC-editors archive
and the living dnssec-bis-updates document.

         Olafur (for the chairs)


At 21:39 17/11/2008, Edward Lewis wrote:
>How about just submitting an errata to RFC 5155?
>
>http://rfc-editor.org/how_to_report.html
>
>At 16:57 -0600 11/17/08, Roy Arends wrote:
>>Dear DNSEXT WG,
>>
>>During an NSEC3 interoperability test we found a contradiction in RFC
>>5155:
>>
>>A NSEC3 record, that matches an Empty Non-Terminal, effectively has no
>>type associated with it. This NSEC3 record has an empty type bit map.
>>Section 3.2.1 contains the statement:
>>
>>    Blocks with no types present MUST NOT be included.
>>
>>However, the same section contains a regular expression:
>>
>>    Type Bit Maps Field = ( Window Block # | Bitmap Length | Bitmap )+
>>
>>The plus sign in the regular expression indicates that there is one or
>>more of the preceding element. This means that there must be at least one
>>window block. If this window block has no types, it contradicts with the
>>first statement. Therefore, the correct text in RFC 5155 3.2.1 should be:
>>
>>    Type Bit Maps Field = ( Window Block # | Bitmap Length | Bitmap )*
>>
>>I suggest we add this to dnssec-bis updates (
>>draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-bis-updates-07), and we get this one character
>>error in RFC5155 ERRATA posted on the rfc-editors site.
>>
>>If the suggested change is not satisfactory, I want better text by
>>November 26th. At that point I'll brief the RFC editor and ask the chairs
>>and the dnssec-bis editors to add it to dnssec-bis updates.
>>
>>With Kind Regards,
>>
>>Roy Arends
>>Senior Researcher
>>Nominet UK
>>
>>--
>>to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
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>
>--
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
>NeuStar
>
>Never confuse activity with progress.  Activity pays more.
>
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<html>
<body>
<font size=3>Roy is going to do that, <br>
he is just asking for working group&nbsp; to sign of the text of the
errata. <br>
To increase the chances that future implementors find this corrections
the<br>
WG chairs decided to both include the errata in the RFC-editors archive
<br>
and the living dnssec-bis-updates document. <br><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Olafur
(for the chairs) <br><br>
<br>
At 21:39 17/11/2008, Edward Lewis wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">How about just submitting an
errata to RFC 5155?<br><br>
<a href="http://rfc-editor.org/how_to_report.html" eudora="autourl">
http://rfc-editor.org/how_to_report.html</a><br><br>
At 16:57 -0600 11/17/08, Roy Arends wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Dear DNSEXT WG,<br><br>
During an NSEC3 interoperability test we found a contradiction in
RFC<br>
5155:<br><br>
A NSEC3 record, that matches an Empty Non-Terminal, effectively has
no<br>
type associated with it. This NSEC3 record has an empty type bit
map.<br>
Section 3.2.1 contains the statement:<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Blocks with no types present MUST NOT be included.<br><br>
However, the same section contains a regular expression:<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Type Bit Maps Field = ( Window Block # | Bitmap Length |
Bitmap )+<br><br>
The plus sign in the regular expression indicates that there is one
or<br>
more of the preceding element. This means that there must be at least
one<br>
window block. If this window block has no types, it contradicts with
the<br>
first statement. Therefore, the correct text in RFC 5155 3.2.1 should
be:<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Type Bit Maps Field = ( Window Block # | Bitmap Length |
Bitmap )*<br><br>
I suggest we add this to dnssec-bis updates (<br>
draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-bis-updates-07), and we get this one
character<br>
error in RFC5155 ERRATA posted on the rfc-editors site.<br><br>
If the suggested change is not satisfactory, I want better text by<br>
November 26th. At that point I'll brief the RFC editor and ask the
chairs<br>
and the dnssec-bis editors to add it to dnssec-bis updates.<br><br>
With Kind Regards,<br><br>
Roy Arends<br>
Senior Researcher<br>
Nominet UK<br><br>
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-- <br>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-<br>
Edward
Lewis&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
+1-571-434-5468<br>
NeuStar<br><br>
Never confuse activity with progress.&nbsp; Activity pays more.<br><br>
--<br>
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http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/</a>&gt;<br><br>
</font></blockquote></body>
</html>

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From: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] A contradiction in RFC 5155 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 18 Nov 2008 01:07:56 BST."
             <200811180007.mAI07uQD054473@givry.fdupont.fr> 
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In message <200811180007.mAI07uQD054473@givry.fdupont.fr>, Francis Dupont write
s:
> I support Roy's proposal.
> 
> Francis.Dupont@fdupont.fr
> 
	I also concur with the fix.
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org

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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the DNS Extensions Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Measures for making DNS more resilient against forged answers
	Author(s)       : B. Hubert, R. Mook
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dnsext-forgery-resilience-09.txt
	Pages           : 25
	Date            : 2008-11-17

The current Internet climate poses serious threats to the Domain Name
System.  In the interim period before the DNS protocol can be secured
more fully, measures can already be taken to harden the DNS to make
'spoofing' a recursing nameserver many orders of magnitude harder.

Even a cryptographically secured DNS benefits from having the ability
to discard bogus responses quickly, as this potentially saves large
amounts of computation.

By describing certain behaviour that has previously not been
standardised, this document sets out how to make the DNS more
resilient against accepting incorrect responses.  This document
updates RFC 2181.

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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 09:27:43 +0100
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: "Griffiths, Chris" <Chris_Griffiths@Cable.Comcast.com>
Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: [dnsext] Re: (Off-Topic) DNSSEC Technical Testing update
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On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 03:59:06PM -0500,
 Griffiths, Chris <Chris_Griffiths@Cable.Comcast.com> wrote 
 a message of 19 lines which said:

> We launched another trial DNSSEC aware resolver today in our network.
> The new server can be located at 68.87.69.154.
> 
> We have also updated our trial website with additional details in case
> folks are curious:  http://www.dnssec.comcast.net

You do not seem to document the trust anchors that you use? 


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Subject: [dnsext] RE: (Off-Topic) DNSSEC Technical Testing update
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Apologies in advance for the continued chatter.  We updated our website
to list all public keys that are loaded on our resolvers.  If folks have
any additional keys that they don't see, please feel free to forward
links as we are looking to build out this list.  We are also going to
upgrade to the latest version of Unbound which supports DLV.  I will
update the website when this goes live.=20

Thanks for the feedback.


Chris Griffiths
Comcast Cable Communications, Inc.


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr]
>Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 2:28 AM
>To: Griffiths, Chris
>Cc: dnsop@ietf.org; namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
>Subject: Re: (Off-Topic) DNSSEC Technical Testing update
>
>On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 03:59:06PM -0500,
> Griffiths, Chris <Chris_Griffiths@Cable.Comcast.com> wrote
> a message of 19 lines which said:
>
>> We launched another trial DNSSEC aware resolver today in our network.
>> The new server can be located at 68.87.69.154.
>>
>> We have also updated our trial website with additional details in
case
>> folks are curious:  http://www.dnssec.comcast.net
>
>You do not seem to document the trust anchors that you use?



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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Tue Nov 18 09:29:06 2008
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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:22:48 -0200
From: Frederico A C Neves <fneves@registro.br>
To: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dnsext] A contradiction in RFC 5155
Message-ID: <20081118172248.GF13843@registro.br>
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	Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
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On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 03:38:40PM +1100, Mark Andrews wrote:
> 
> In message <200811180007.mAI07uQD054473@givry.fdupont.fr>, Francis Dupont write
> s:
> > I support Roy's proposal.
> > 
> > Francis.Dupont@fdupont.fr
> > 
> 	I also concur with the fix.

I also support Roy's proposal.

Fred

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Tue Nov 18 09:42:00 2008
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 <a06240801c547daeaeaf5@[130.129.31.196]>
 <200811180418.mAI4IfO7081496@stora.ogud.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 11:36:59 -0600
To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur_Gu=F0mundsson_=2FDNSEXT__chair?=  <ogud@ogud.com>
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] A contradiction in RFC 5155
Cc: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>, "Roy Arends" <roy@nominet.org.uk>,
        namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
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At 23:17 -0500 11/17/08, =D3lafur Gu=F0mundsson /DNSEXT chair wrote:
>Roy is going to do that,
>
>At 21:39 17/11/2008, Edward Lewis wrote:
>>How about just submitting an errata to RFC 5155?

As usual, I only read half of what Roy types so I=20
missed the line about the "ERRATA."  I don't=20
think adding the stuff to dnssecbis-updates is=20
needed though. There are lots of errata levied on=20
DNS documents already and we don't highlight them.

Other than that, the substance of Roy's change is fine, good, ack.
-- 
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D=
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Never confuse activity with progress.  Activity pays more.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Tue Nov 18 12:23:38 2008
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On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 11:36:59AM -0600, Edward Lewis wrote:
...
> As usual, I only read half of what Roy types so I 
> missed the line about the "ERRATA."  I don't 
> think adding the stuff to dnssecbis-updates is 
> needed though. There are lots of errata levied on 
> DNS documents already and we don't highlight them.

... and read them too !

Fred

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Tue Nov 18 14:39:48 2008
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Gu=F0mundsson?= /DNSEXT 
 chair <ogud@ogud.com>
Subject: [dnsext] Document Adoption: DNS Proxy Implementation Guidelines
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--=====================_6426540==.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed


The document has got enough support and no one has argued against 
adopting this document.
Thanks to the following people to volunteer to help with the document:

         Patrik Wallstrom
         Srini Avirneni
         Nicholas Weaver
         Shane Kerr
         Jim Reid
         Stephane Bortzmeyer

Document shepherd will be Olafur

         Olafur and Andrew



--=====================_6426540==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
<br>
The document has got enough support and no one has argued against
adopting this document.<br>
Thanks to the following people to volunteer to help with the
document:<br><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Patrik
Wallstrom<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>
<font size=2>Srini Avirneni<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Nicholas
Weaver<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Shane
Kerr<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Jim
Reid<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab></font>
Stephane Bortzmeyer<br><br>
Document shepherd will be Olafur<br>
&nbsp;<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Olafur and
Andrew<br><br>
<br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_6426540==.ALT--


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Tue Nov 18 15:07:03 2008
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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:01:44 -0600
From: marcelo bagnulo braun <marcelo@it.uc3m.es>
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Hi,

Here is the draft describing the dns64 mechanism.

Feedback would be greatly appreciated.

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bagnulo-behave-dns64-01

Thanks, marcelo


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From dnsinfo@dnsdk.dk  Tue Nov 18 18:10:24 2008
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Wed Nov 19 09:00:20 2008
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	As per the chairs' instructions, this is a request for
	dnsext to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt as a wg
	item.

	Mark
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE:	+61 2 9871 4742		         INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org

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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the DNS Extensions Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Deprecation of HMAC-MD5 in DNS TSIG and TKEY Resource Records
	Author(s)       : F. Dupont
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dnsext-tsig-md5-deprecated-01.txt
	Pages           : 6
	Date            : 2008-11-19

The main goal of this document is to deprecate the use of HMAC-MD5 as
an algorithm for the TSIG (secret key transaction authentication)
resource record in the DNS (domain name system).

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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:05:58 -0600
From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>
To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dnsext] request to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt
Message-ID: <20081119230558.GC12593@shinkuro.com>
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On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 03:52:59AM +1100, Mark Andrews wrote:
> 
> 	As per the chairs' instructions, this is a request for
> 	dnsext to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt as a wg
> 	item.

As usual, we need to have at least five people commit to working on
(== reviewing) the document, or we can't put it into the WG's work
list because we can't reasnably expect to complete the work.

Andrew

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@shinkuro.com
Shinkuro, Inc.

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Subject: Re: [dnsext] request to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt
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On 19 nov 2008, at 17.05, Andrew Sullivan wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 03:52:59AM +1100, Mark Andrews wrote:
>>
>> 	As per the chairs' instructions, this is a request for
>> 	dnsext to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt as a wg
>> 	item.
>
> As usual, we need to have at least five people commit to working on
> (== reviewing) the document, or we can't put it into the WG's work
> list because we can't reasnably expect to complete the work.

Sign me up.

    Patrik


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Wed Nov 19 15:44:31 2008
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Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 03:52:59AM +1100, Mark Andrews wrote:
>> 	As per the chairs' instructions, this is a request for
>> 	dnsext to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt as a wg
>> 	item.
>=20
> As usual, we need to have at least five people commit to working on
> (=3D=3D reviewing) the document, or we can't put it into the WG's work
> list because we can't reasnably expect to complete the work.
>=20

If the wg decides to adopt you can add me to the list of reviewers

Jelte


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Thu Nov 20 03:10:55 2008
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From: Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de>
To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dnsext] request to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt
References: <200811191653.mAJGqxbD027516@drugs.dv.isc.org>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:04:18 +0100
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We need to fix EDNS to ignore unknown options before we can add more
of them, otherwise there'll be a combinatorial explosion in the check
to find the cause of a SERVFAIL.

I wonder if it's not easier to put the expiration time of a zone into
a special record at the zone apex.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Thu Nov 20 03:14:56 2008
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From: Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de>
To: marcelo bagnulo braun <marcelo@it.uc3m.es>
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dnsext] dns64
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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:10:26 +0100
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* marcelo bagnulo braun:

> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bagnulo-behave-dns64-01

This should be put into the getaddrinfo facility (RFC 3493), where it
is outside the scope of the DNSEXT WG.

IMHO, this has no place in the DNS protocol itself.

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Subject: Re: [dnsext] request to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt
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On 20 nov 2008, at 05.04, Florian Weimer wrote:

> We need to fix EDNS to ignore unknown options before we can add more
> of them, otherwise there'll be a combinatorial explosion in the check
> to find the cause of a SERVFAIL.
>
> I wonder if it's not easier to put the expiration time of a zone into
> a special record at the zone apex.

Arghhh...no please!

Lets review the EDNS0 unknown options behaviour.

    paf


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From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com
To: Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de>
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dnsext] request to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt
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On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 12:04:18PM +0100, Florian Weimer wrote:
> We need to fix EDNS to ignore unknown options before we can add more
> of them, otherwise there'll be a combinatorial explosion in the check
> to find the cause of a SERVFAIL.
> 
> I wonder if it's not easier to put the expiration time of a zone into
> a special record at the zone apex.


	perhaps we could hijack a field in the SOA thats not being used...

	like, perhaps, EXPIRE?

--bill

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From: Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de>
To: Patrik =?iso-8859-1?Q?F=E4ltstr=F6m?= <paf@cisco.com>
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dnsext] request to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt
References: <200811191653.mAJGqxbD027516@drugs.dv.isc.org>
	<87prkqy7yl.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de>
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	=?iso-8859-1?Q?F=E4ltstr=F6m=22's?= message of "Thu, 20 Nov 2008 06:39:06
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* Patrik F=E4ltstr=F6m:

> On 20 nov 2008, at 05.04, Florian Weimer wrote:
>
>> We need to fix EDNS to ignore unknown options before we can add more
>> of them, otherwise there'll be a combinatorial explosion in the check
>> to find the cause of a SERVFAIL.
>>
>> I wonder if it's not easier to put the expiration time of a zone into
>> a special record at the zone apex.
>
> Arghhh...no please!

Huh?  We're jumping through all kinds of hoops to reconstruct that
timestamp, so why not list it explicitly in the zone?

Obviously, if the master does not regenerate it, you'll eventually run
into a problem, but as an optional feature for those who know what
they're doing -- why not?

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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Gu=F0mundsson?= /DNSEXT 
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Subject: [dnsext] EDNS0 options open issues
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 06:04 20/11/2008, Florian Weimer wrote:
>We need to fix EDNS to ignore unknown options before we can add more
>of them, otherwise there'll be a combinatorial explosion in the check
>to find the cause of a SERVFAIL.

Thank you Florian, for kick starting this discussion (it was on
my TODO list).
The right way to handle this is to place text in the EDNS0-bis
document.
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dnsext/draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2671bis-edns0/


Q1: How do we mark Ignorable vs Required options ?
(see Section 4.4.2 of EDNS0-bis)
The possibilities include:
      - Continue to define all options as ignorable
      - Set an ENDS0 flag (affects all options in message)
      - define a range of option numbers for required options
      - steal a bit from the option number to be set when
         support for that option is required by recipient.

Q1-1: If we allow required options does that mean we need to go to
a new EDNS version number?

Q2: We are starting to see requests for EDNS options that are
mostly "local scope" for MDNS/Bonjour should these be treated
differently?

Q3: What should the registration criteria for new ENDS0 Options be?
Currently it is Standards track. RRtypes are Expert review.
(Section 7 of ENDS0-bis)

Feel free to add more open questions.

         Olafur

--=====================_145054797==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
<font size=3>At 06:04 20/11/2008, Florian Weimer wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">We need to fix EDNS to ignore
unknown options before we can add more<br>
of them, otherwise there'll be a combinatorial explosion in the
check<br>
to find the cause of a SERVFAIL.</font></blockquote><br>
Thank you Florian, for kick starting this discussion (it was on<br>
my TODO list).<br>
The right way to handle this is to place text in the EDNS0-bis <br>
document.<br>
<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dnsext/draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2671bis-edns0/" eudora="autourl">
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dnsext/draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2671bis-edns0/</a>
<br><br>
<br>
Q1: How do we mark Ignorable vs Required options ? <br>
(see Section 4.4.2 of EDNS0-bis)<br>
The possibilities include: <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - Continue to define all options as
ignorable<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - Set an ENDS0 flag (affects all options in
message) <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - define a range of option numbers for required
options<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - steal a bit from the option number to be set
when <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>support for
that option is required by recipient.<br><br>
Q1-1: If we allow required options does that mean we need to go to <br>
a new EDNS version number?&nbsp; <br><br>
Q2: We are starting to see requests for EDNS options that are <br>
mostly &quot;local scope&quot; for MDNS/Bonjour should these be treated
<br>
differently? <br><br>
Q3: What should the registration criteria for new ENDS0 Options be? <br>
Currently it is Standards track. RRtypes are Expert review. <br>
(Section 7 of ENDS0-bis) <br><br>
Feel free to add more open questions. <br><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Olafur<br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_145054797==.ALT--


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Subject: Re: [dnsext] request to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt
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References: <200811191653.mAJGqxbD027516@drugs.dv.isc.org> <87prkqy7yl.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <607D048A-E495-4AC7-8E1B-E1BEA582477A@cisco.com> <87r656tume.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de>
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On 20 nov 2008, at 07.06, Florian Weimer wrote:

>>> I wonder if it's not easier to put the expiration time of a zone  
>>> into
>>> a special record at the zone apex.
>>
>> Arghhh...no please!
>
> Huh?  We're jumping through all kinds of hoops to reconstruct that
> timestamp, so why not list it explicitly in the zone?

Because the timer should be possible to set from (I think) both as a  
request from the client and as from the server. If you do this as a  
new RR Type, I claim you have to change the DDNS spec, because when  
you send a request for an update, and get the response back, then the  
server is to respond with other RR Types part from the ones that ddns  
spec already specifies.

I think that is ugly.

I think having a ENDS0 "timer" option is much more clean, as I see it  
as a more generic clean solutions.

Hey, we could just store the number of seconds the record is valud in  
a TXT record with the same owner... ;-) That way we do not have to  
change the protocol at all... [I hope people understand I am joking]

    Patrik


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To: Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de>
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From: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] request to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:04:18 BST."
             <87prkqy7yl.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> 
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In message <87prkqy7yl.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de>, Florian Weimer writes:
> We need to fix EDNS to ignore unknown options before we can add more
> of them, otherwise there'll be a combinatorial explosion in the check
> to find the cause of a SERVFAIL.

	Firstly it has already been stated.  Secondly it will mainly
	be used where the client knows the server's support level or
	can reasonably be expected to be able to it the option off
	for a particular server.
 
> I wonder if it's not easier to put the expiration time of a zone into
> a special record at the zone apex.

	And you do that with DNSSEC how?
 
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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:58:11 -0600
To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] request to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt
Cc: ed.lewis@neustar.biz
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At 3:52 +1100 11/20/08, Mark Andrews wrote:
>	As per the chairs' instructions, this is a request for
>	dnsext to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt as a wg
>	item.

A question for the chairs - how would y'all manage having both this 
document and axfr-clarify active at the same time?  As in, would they 
have to travel together, one before the other, etc.?
-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Never confuse activity with progress.  Activity pays more.

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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:14:23 -0600
To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: [dnsext] Timing down a zone
Cc: ed.lewis@neustar.biz
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The thread asking for adoption of draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt 
has already spun into a thread of ideas.  Separating this off into 
it's own thread.

We can't muck with the SOA RR - that would void the DNSSEC RRSIG. 
More significantly, it constitutes a change to the zone, hence 
restarting the expiry anyway.

The trouble with sticking a record in the zone is that the record 
would either be a statement of absolute time or relative time.  The 
former is a concept alien to DNS except in DNSSEC and TSIG.  (Adding 
new concepts into the protocol should not be done lightly.)  The 
latter would presumably mean we are ticking down a value and 
rewriting the record - again this is a change to the zone, a new 
serial number is needed and then a new expiry.

Note that authoritative servers today are required to only tick down 
to the expiry, nothing else.  Not the data in the zone.

Perhaps this is not a real problem.  (Unless the draft has some 
case.)  Let's say a server is serving serial number 1001 with an 
expiry of 10000 seconds.  In what way would that expiry ever be 
restarted?  I really can't think of one - if the server ever sees a 
NOTIFY or asks for a zone transfer and gets the same serial number 
(1001), it should be updating or resetting the zone.  I.e., a server 
ought to "load" a serial number only once ever (module the wrap 
around thing).

But if there is a reason why a server could be "tricked into" 
restarting the expiry timer, I'd look to what else is out there.

We have a precedent for transferring a timer inspite of not wanting 
to change the original record in the RRSIG.  The TTL fields are 
already expected to decline, the RRSIG carries the original one.

I would suggest that a "remaining until expiry" option be in EDNS0 (a 
control plane feature in the control plane fields) attached to an XFR 
request and reply.  That keeps this out of the zone (no serial number 
change) and let's use avoid the introduction of absolute time outside 
of the DNSSEC/TSIG areas.

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Never confuse activity with progress.  Activity pays more.

--
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Thu Nov 20 06:46:49 2008
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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:41:10 +0000
From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com
To: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dnsext] Timing down a zone
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so i guess I am at a loss here.  what does it mean to "expire" a zone?
seems like at least two varients here:

	) the tradtional view - the zone data "goes away"
	) the new view - the sig lifetime timesout 

nd the problem is getting/keeping these two in sync.  Or am I out to
lunch still?

--bill


On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 08:14:23AM -0600, Edward Lewis wrote:
> The thread asking for adoption of draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt 
> has already spun into a thread of ideas.  Separating this off into 
> it's own thread.
> 
> We can't muck with the SOA RR - that would void the DNSSEC RRSIG. 
> More significantly, it constitutes a change to the zone, hence 
> restarting the expiry anyway.
> 
> The trouble with sticking a record in the zone is that the record 
> would either be a statement of absolute time or relative time.  The 
> former is a concept alien to DNS except in DNSSEC and TSIG.  (Adding 
> new concepts into the protocol should not be done lightly.)  The 
> latter would presumably mean we are ticking down a value and 
> rewriting the record - again this is a change to the zone, a new 
> serial number is needed and then a new expiry.
> 
> Note that authoritative servers today are required to only tick down 
> to the expiry, nothing else.  Not the data in the zone.
> 
> Perhaps this is not a real problem.  (Unless the draft has some 
> case.)  Let's say a server is serving serial number 1001 with an 
> expiry of 10000 seconds.  In what way would that expiry ever be 
> restarted?  I really can't think of one - if the server ever sees a 
> NOTIFY or asks for a zone transfer and gets the same serial number 
> (1001), it should be updating or resetting the zone.  I.e., a server 
> ought to "load" a serial number only once ever (module the wrap 
> around thing).
> 
> But if there is a reason why a server could be "tricked into" 
> restarting the expiry timer, I'd look to what else is out there.
> 
> We have a precedent for transferring a timer inspite of not wanting 
> to change the original record in the RRSIG.  The TTL fields are 
> already expected to decline, the RRSIG carries the original one.
> 
> I would suggest that a "remaining until expiry" option be in EDNS0 (a 
> control plane feature in the control plane fields) attached to an XFR 
> request and reply.  That keeps this out of the zone (no serial number 
> change) and let's use avoid the introduction of absolute time outside 
> of the DNSSEC/TSIG areas.
> 
> -- 
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
> NeuStar
> 
> Never confuse activity with progress.  Activity pays more.
> 
> --
> to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
> the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
> archive: <http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/>

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Thu Nov 20 07:04:04 2008
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 <20081120144110.GB32436@vacation.karoshi.com.>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:58:52 -0600
To: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] Timing down a zone
Cc: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
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Zone expiry has nothing to do with DNSSEC.

The problem ought to be solved for the pre-DNSSEC case (backward 
compatibility if you will) and make sure it works with DNSSEC added 
(future proofing).

It's not lunch time here in Minnesota.

At 14:41 +0000 11/20/08, bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote:
>so i guess I am at a loss here.  what does it mean to "expire" a zone?
>seems like at least two varients here:
>
>	) the tradtional view - the zone data "goes away"
>	) the new view - the sig lifetime timesout
>
>nd the problem is getting/keeping these two in sync.  Or am I out to
>lunch still?
>
>--bill
>
>
>On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 08:14:23AM -0600, Edward Lewis wrote:
>>  The thread asking for adoption of draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt
>>  has already spun into a thread of ideas.  Separating this off into
>>  it's own thread.
>>
>>  We can't muck with the SOA RR - that would void the DNSSEC RRSIG.
>>  More significantly, it constitutes a change to the zone, hence
>>  restarting the expiry anyway.
>>
>>  The trouble with sticking a record in the zone is that the record
>>  would either be a statement of absolute time or relative time.  The
>>  former is a concept alien to DNS except in DNSSEC and TSIG.  (Adding
>>  new concepts into the protocol should not be done lightly.)  The
>>  latter would presumably mean we are ticking down a value and
>>  rewriting the record - again this is a change to the zone, a new
>>  serial number is needed and then a new expiry.
>>
>>  Note that authoritative servers today are required to only tick down
>>  to the expiry, nothing else.  Not the data in the zone.
>>
>>  Perhaps this is not a real problem.  (Unless the draft has some
>>  case.)  Let's say a server is serving serial number 1001 with an
>>  expiry of 10000 seconds.  In what way would that expiry ever be
>>  restarted?  I really can't think of one - if the server ever sees a
>>  NOTIFY or asks for a zone transfer and gets the same serial number
>>  (1001), it should be updating or resetting the zone.  I.e., a server
>>  ought to "load" a serial number only once ever (module the wrap
>>  around thing).
>>
>>  But if there is a reason why a server could be "tricked into"
>>  restarting the expiry timer, I'd look to what else is out there.
>>
>>  We have a precedent for transferring a timer inspite of not wanting
>>  to change the original record in the RRSIG.  The TTL fields are
>>  already expected to decline, the RRSIG carries the original one.
>>
>>  I would suggest that a "remaining until expiry" option be in EDNS0 (a
>>  control plane feature in the control plane fields) attached to an XFR
>>  request and reply.  That keeps this out of the zone (no serial number
>>  change) and let's use avoid the introduction of absolute time outside
>>  of the DNSSEC/TSIG areas.
>>
>>  --
>>  -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>>  Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
>>  NeuStar
>>
>>  Never confuse activity with progress.  Activity pays more.
>>
>>  --
>>  to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
>>  the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
>>  archive: <http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/>
>
>--
>to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
>the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
>archive: <http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/>

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Never confuse activity with progress.  Activity pays more.

--
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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:47:29 +0000
From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com
To: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Cc: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dnsext] Timing down a zone
Message-ID: <20081120154729.GA378@vacation.karoshi.com.>
References: <a06240802c54b1e8338a0@[192.168.1.107]> <20081120144110.GB32436@vacation.karoshi.com.> <a06240804c54b2b4335b9@[192.168.1.107]>
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 so ... there is a nomenclature problem.  "we" are not expiring the
 zone - we are trying to find a way to signal to the DNS that the
 crypt signature expiration is at time "foo".  - right?

--bill (its lunch time somewhere)



On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 08:58:52AM -0600, Edward Lewis wrote:
> Zone expiry has nothing to do with DNSSEC.
> 
> The problem ought to be solved for the pre-DNSSEC case (backward 
> compatibility if you will) and make sure it works with DNSSEC added 
> (future proofing).
> 
> It's not lunch time here in Minnesota.
> 
> At 14:41 +0000 11/20/08, bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote:
> >so i guess I am at a loss here.  what does it mean to "expire" a zone?
> >seems like at least two varients here:
> >
> >	) the tradtional view - the zone data "goes away"
> >	) the new view - the sig lifetime timesout
> >
> >nd the problem is getting/keeping these two in sync.  Or am I out to
> >lunch still?
> >
> >--bill
> >
> >
> >On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 08:14:23AM -0600, Edward Lewis wrote:
> >> The thread asking for adoption of draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt
> >> has already spun into a thread of ideas.  Separating this off into
> >> it's own thread.
> >>
> >> We can't muck with the SOA RR - that would void the DNSSEC RRSIG.
> >> More significantly, it constitutes a change to the zone, hence
> >> restarting the expiry anyway.
> >>
> >> The trouble with sticking a record in the zone is that the record
> >> would either be a statement of absolute time or relative time.  The
> >> former is a concept alien to DNS except in DNSSEC and TSIG.  (Adding
> >> new concepts into the protocol should not be done lightly.)  The
> >> latter would presumably mean we are ticking down a value and
> >> rewriting the record - again this is a change to the zone, a new
> >> serial number is needed and then a new expiry.
> >>
> >> Note that authoritative servers today are required to only tick down
> >> to the expiry, nothing else.  Not the data in the zone.
> >>
> >> Perhaps this is not a real problem.  (Unless the draft has some
> >> case.)  Let's say a server is serving serial number 1001 with an
> >> expiry of 10000 seconds.  In what way would that expiry ever be
> >> restarted?  I really can't think of one - if the server ever sees a
> >> NOTIFY or asks for a zone transfer and gets the same serial number
> >> (1001), it should be updating or resetting the zone.  I.e., a server
> >> ought to "load" a serial number only once ever (module the wrap
> >> around thing).
> >>
> >> But if there is a reason why a server could be "tricked into"
> >> restarting the expiry timer, I'd look to what else is out there.
> >>
> >> We have a precedent for transferring a timer inspite of not wanting
> >> to change the original record in the RRSIG.  The TTL fields are
> >> already expected to decline, the RRSIG carries the original one.
> >>
> >> I would suggest that a "remaining until expiry" option be in EDNS0 (a
> >> control plane feature in the control plane fields) attached to an XFR
> >> request and reply.  That keeps this out of the zone (no serial number
> >> change) and let's use avoid the introduction of absolute time outside
> >> of the DNSSEC/TSIG areas.
> >>
> >> --
> >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> >> Edward Lewis                                                
> >> +1-571-434-5468
> >> NeuStar
> >>
> >> Never confuse activity with progress.  Activity pays more.
> >>
> >> --
> >> to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
> >> the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
> >> archive: <http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/>
> >
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> -- 
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
> NeuStar
> 
> Never confuse activity with progress.  Activity pays more.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Thu Nov 20 09:23:04 2008
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References: <a06240802c54b1e8338a0@[192.168.1.107]>
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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:13:31 -0600
To: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] Timing down a zone
Cc: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
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No, I don't believe so.

We already have a way to indicate signature expiration (in an existing RRSIG).

The problem is a slave re-learning the zone from other slaves and 
thus resetting the (EXPIRE=) time until zone expiry.

At 15:47 +0000 11/20/08, bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote:
>  so ... there is a nomenclature problem.  "we" are not expiring the
>  zone - we are trying to find a way to signal to the DNS that the
>  crypt signature expiration is at time "foo".  - right?
>
>--bill (its lunch time somewhere)
>
>
>
>On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 08:58:52AM -0600, Edward Lewis wrote:
>>  Zone expiry has nothing to do with DNSSEC.
>>
>>  The problem ought to be solved for the pre-DNSSEC case (backward
>>  compatibility if you will) and make sure it works with DNSSEC added
>>  (future proofing).
>>
>>  It's not lunch time here in Minnesota.
>>
>>  At 14:41 +0000 11/20/08, bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote:
>>  >so i guess I am at a loss here.  what does it mean to "expire" a zone?
>>  >seems like at least two varients here:
>>  >
>>  >	) the tradtional view - the zone data "goes away"
>>  >	) the new view - the sig lifetime timesout
>>  >
>>  >nd the problem is getting/keeping these two in sync.  Or am I out to
>>  >lunch still?
>>  >
>>  >--bill
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 08:14:23AM -0600, Edward Lewis wrote:
>>  >> The thread asking for adoption of draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt
>>  >> has already spun into a thread of ideas.  Separating this off into
>>  >> it's own thread.
>>  >>
>>  >> We can't muck with the SOA RR - that would void the DNSSEC RRSIG.
>>  >> More significantly, it constitutes a change to the zone, hence
>>  >> restarting the expiry anyway.
>>  >>
>>  >> The trouble with sticking a record in the zone is that the record
>>  >> would either be a statement of absolute time or relative time.  The
>>  >> former is a concept alien to DNS except in DNSSEC and TSIG.  (Adding
>>  >> new concepts into the protocol should not be done lightly.)  The
>>  >> latter would presumably mean we are ticking down a value and
>>  >> rewriting the record - again this is a change to the zone, a new
>>  >> serial number is needed and then a new expiry.
>>  >>
>>  >> Note that authoritative servers today are required to only tick down
>>  >> to the expiry, nothing else.  Not the data in the zone.
>>  >>
>>  >> Perhaps this is not a real problem.  (Unless the draft has some
>>  >> case.)  Let's say a server is serving serial number 1001 with an
>>  >> expiry of 10000 seconds.  In what way would that expiry ever be
>>  >> restarted?  I really can't think of one - if the server ever sees a
>>  >> NOTIFY or asks for a zone transfer and gets the same serial number
>>  >> (1001), it should be updating or resetting the zone.  I.e., a server
>>  >> ought to "load" a serial number only once ever (module the wrap
>>  >> around thing).
>>  >>
>>  >> But if there is a reason why a server could be "tricked into"
>>  >> restarting the expiry timer, I'd look to what else is out there.
>>  >>
>>  >> We have a precedent for transferring a timer inspite of not wanting
>>  >> to change the original record in the RRSIG.  The TTL fields are
>>  >> already expected to decline, the RRSIG carries the original one.
>>  >>
>>  >> I would suggest that a "remaining until expiry" option be in EDNS0 (a
>>  >> control plane feature in the control plane fields) attached to an XFR
>>  >> request and reply.  That keeps this out of the zone (no serial number
>>  >> change) and let's use avoid the introduction of absolute time outside
>>  >> of the DNSSEC/TSIG areas.
>>  >>
>>  >> --
>>  >> 
>>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>>  >> Edward Lewis
>>  >> +1-571-434-5468
>>  >> NeuStar
>>  >>
>>  >> Never confuse activity with progress.  Activity pays more.
>>  >>
>>  >> --
>>  >> to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
>>  >> the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
>>  >> archive: <http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/>
>>  >
>>  >--
>>  >to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
>>  >the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
>>  >archive: <http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/>
>>
>>  --
>>  -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>>  Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
>>  NeuStar
>>
>>  Never confuse activity with progress.  Activity pays more.

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Never confuse activity with progress.  Activity pays more.

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Subject: Re: [dnsext] request to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt
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On Nov 19, 2008, at 16:52, Mark Andrews wrote:

> 	As per the chairs' instructions, this is a request for
> 	dnsext to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt as a wg
> 	item.

I think this draft should not go forward as a WG item. Sorry Mark. IMO  
it is a bad idea to change the protocol because of foolish, easily  
avoided, administrator mistakes. [What next, we tweak the protocol to  
cope with forwarding loops in resolvers?] If people do dumb things,  
they need to realise their actions have consequences. That said, I  
would support a BCP which says things like "don't set up stupid  
transfer graphs and here's what sort of nastiness can occur when these  
are used". Though this won't get read by the DNS admins who do silly  
things.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Thu Nov 20 09:47:42 2008
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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:43:03 -0600
To: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: [dnsext] Infinity and draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
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http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00:

#   There are also zone transfer graphs in which the slave never talks to
#   the master, so the effective expiry period becomes multiplied the
#   length of the zone transfer graph--which when it contains loops is
#   infinite.

I think loops are easily handled - no server "reloads" a zone of the same TTL.

As far as the expiry clock not ticking down from server to server - 
is that any more than a nuisance?  Sure, it's possible that a slave 
learns the zone from another, possibly near the time of expiry there. 
Working NOTIFY takes care of this, but without working NOTIFY, there 
are other problems.

Other than that, relative to the draft, the solution contained in it 
seems solid.
-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Never confuse activity with progress.  Activity pays more.
--============_-984919510==_ma============
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Infinity and
draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt</title></head><body>
<div>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00:</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>#&nbsp;&nbsp; There are also zone transfer graphs in which the
slave never talks to<br>
#&nbsp;&nbsp; the master, so the effective expiry period becomes
multiplied the<br>
#&nbsp;&nbsp; length of the zone transfer graph--which when it
contains loops is<br>
#&nbsp;&nbsp; infinite.<br>
</div>
<div>I think loops are easily handled - no server &quot;reloads&quot;
a zone of the same TTL.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>As far as the expiry clock not ticking down from server to server
- is that any more than a nuisance?&nbsp; Sure, it's possible that a
slave learns the zone from another, possibly near the time of expiry
there.&nbsp; Working NOTIFY takes care of this, but without working
NOTIFY, there are other problems.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Other than that, relative to the draft, the solution contained in
it seems solid.</div>
<x-sigsep><pre>-- 
</pre></x-sigsep>
<div
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<span
></span>-=-=-=-<br>
Edward
Lewis&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span
></span
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span
></span
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span
></span
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span
></span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +1-571-434-5468<br>
NeuStar</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Never confuse activity with progress.&nbsp; Activity pays
more.</div>
</body>
</html>
--============_-984919510==_ma============--

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Subject: Re: [dnsext] request to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:53:27 -0600
References: <200811191653.mAJGqxbD027516@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20081119230558.GC12593@shinkuro.com> <FE90B24B-949B-441B-B721-E6CD59127710@cisco.com>
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On 19 nov 2008, at 17.18, Patrik F=E4ltstr=F6m wrote:

> On 19 nov 2008, at 17.05, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 03:52:59AM +1100, Mark Andrews wrote:
>>>
>>> 	As per the chairs' instructions, this is a request for
>>> 	dnsext to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt as a wg
>>> 	item.
>>
>> As usual, we need to have at least five people commit to working on
>> (=3D=3D reviewing) the document, or we can't put it into the WG's =
work
>> list because we can't reasnably expect to complete the work.
>
> Sign me up.

Let me be clear in my "sign me up" position.

I think there is a problem here that has to be solved. Whether this =20
document is solving the problem, I do not know. At the first fast =20
read, I think my answer to the question is "no".

But, to be able to say this, or be able to say what the real solution =20=

is, I am happy to review this draft in detail.

    Patrik


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From: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] request to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:35:31 -0000."
             <B918FDB9-8C8E-4A15-B3A7-F4799502407A@rfc1035.com> 
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In message <B918FDB9-8C8E-4A15-B3A7-F4799502407A@rfc1035.com>, Jim Reid writes:
> On Nov 19, 2008, at 16:52, Mark Andrews wrote:
> 
> > 	As per the chairs' instructions, this is a request for
> > 	dnsext to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt as a wg
> > 	item.
> 
> I think this draft should not go forward as a WG item. Sorry Mark. IMO  
> it is a bad idea to change the protocol because of foolish, easily  
> avoided, administrator mistakes. [What next, we tweak the protocol to  
> cope with forwarding loops in resolvers?] If people do dumb things,  
> they need to realise their actions have consequences. That said, I  
> would support a BCP which says things like "don't set up stupid  
> transfer graphs and here's what sort of nastiness can occur when these  
> are used". Though this won't get read by the DNS admins who do silly  
> things.

	Firstly there are other uses for this.

	I'm repeatedly asked "how do I know when a zone will expire" and
	"how do I check that refresh is working".  The answer today is
	look in the file system but some of the people wanting to do this
	check don't have access to the file system.  The security section
	points out this possible use.

	Some non transfer uses:
	* client checking that the ISP's servers are refreshing properly.
	* ISP check that all the zones it is serving are transfering.

	Secondly anything which requires a human to configure is likely
	to be stuffed up.  If it can be completely automated then there
	is no human error in the configuration (though possibly in the
	automation.

	Usage senario 1

	C1 and C2 are local anycast servers behind a single address
	and both are transfering from M and each other.   C1 and C2
	will now expire the zone at the same time.
	

			 --- M-----\
		 ------/     |     |
		 v     v     v     v
		C1 <-> C2    S2    S3


	Usage senario 2

			     M
			D1 <---> D2
	        S S S S S S S S S S S S S

	Communication between D1 and M breaks. If you need to identify
	D2 as a peer (not updating expire) everything off D1 expires
	when there is still a working transfer path.  This is a example
	of where configuration fails to do the right job.  There are
	other failure senarios which produce similar negative behaviours.
	Having the remaining expiry lifetime be transfered with the
	refresh queries keeps all servers working provided there is *a*
	path through the graph that works.
	
	Mark
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org

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To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur_Gu=F0mundsson?= /DNSEXT chair <ogud@ogud.com>
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: [dnsext] Re: EDNS0 options open issues
References: <200811191653.mAJGqxbD027516@drugs.dv.isc.org>
	<87prkqy7yl.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de>
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* =D3lafur Gu=F0mundsson:

> Q1: How do we mark Ignorable vs Required options ?

> Q1-1: If we allow required options does that mean we need to go to
> a new EDNS version number?
>
> Q2: We are starting to see requests for EDNS options that are
> mostly "local scope" for MDNS/Bonjour should these be treated
> differently?
>
> Q3: What should the registration criteria for new ENDS0 Options be?
> Currently it is Standards track. RRtypes are Expert review.
> (Section 7 of ENDS0-bis)

Q: Shall we provide transitive options which are supposed to be
forwarded unaltered along with an upstream query (or downstream with a
response)?

Q: Shall we provide transitive options which may alter the data
returned in a response? (HTTP has got such a mechanism, via the Vary
field.)

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Thu Nov 20 14:03:23 2008
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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:49:55 -0600
To: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: solution space discussion, was Re: [dnsext] request to adopt
 draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt
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At 7:19 +1100 11/21/08, Mark Andrews wrote:

I'm not opposed to the idea of including something in EDNS for this, 
but, I'm still not won over for the need.

>	* client checking that the ISP's servers are refreshing properly.

I feel it is ineffective to have a goal of supporting outsider 
debugging.  There is too much information hidden from an outsider as 
it is for them to make an informed decisions.

>	* ISP check that all the zones it is serving are transfering.

ISP's generally aren't hosting zones, but I think that's a minor 
point.  Any DNS operator should have some out-of-band (to DNS) means 
to monitor the health of the DNS constellation, something that is 
especially important when using anycast (hence not being able to 
flat-out ping all the servers from one location).

>	Secondly anything which requires a human to configure is likely
>	to be stuffed up.  If it can be completely automated then there
>	is no human error in the configuration (though possibly in the
>	automation.

This has no meaning to me.  Zone transfer via AXFR, IXFR, and NOTIFY 
is one of the most automated things we have.

Now - I'm not denying that there maybe reasons to worry about 
transmitting the seconds until expiry in a zone transfer, I just 
don't see the justification in these arguments.

>	Usage senario 1
>
>	C1 and C2 are local anycast servers behind a single address
>	and both are transfering from M and each other.   C1 and C2
>	will now expire the zone at the same time.
>
>
>			 --- M-----\
>		 ------/     |     |
>		 v     v     v     v
>		C1 <-> C2    S2    S3

What's lost on me is why seeing two servers expire a zone 
simultaneously is a good thing.  Expiry of the zone is an error 
condition - the result of not being able to update the zone or at 
least ask if there's an update.  (Remember there are refresh and 
retry parameters too and the roles they play.)

And regardless, how would the seconds until expiry play a role in the scenario?

>	Usage senario 2
>
>			     M
>			D1 <---> D2
>	        S S S S S S S S S S S S S
>
>	Communication between D1 and M breaks. If you need to identify
>	D2 as a peer (not updating expire) everything off D1 expires
>	when there is still a working transfer path.  This is a example
>	of where configuration fails to do the right job.  There are
>	other failure senarios which produce similar negative behaviours.
>	Having the remaining expiry lifetime be transfered with the
>	refresh queries keeps all servers working provided there is *a*
>	path through the graph that works.

I don't follow.  If D1 can only get the zone from D2 and cannot see 
M, then it might be like this...

SOA has refresh at 10 mins, retry at 5 mins, and expire at 30 mins.

M updates at 12:00, D1 and D2 get it by 12:01.
The line from D1 to M dies at 12:05
At 12:10 D1 and D2 ask M if there is an update
          D1 gets no answer from M
          D2 hears that no change happened and expire is reset to 12:40
At 12:15 D1 tries M again, and maybe then tries D2 also
          D2 replies no update, so D1 should reset expire to 12:45

Now, if there were a chain but still someway to get to a "neighbor" 
the last name server might expire the zone "retry" x "number of 
slaves" later.

But, so what?  These are errors caused by more important errors (such 
as unanticipated network topology changes).


-- 
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] request to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt 
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:10:25 +0000
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On Nov 20, 2008, at 20:19, Mark Andrews wrote:

> 	Some non transfer uses:
> 	* client checking that the ISP's servers are refreshing properly.
> 	* ISP check that all the zones it is serving are transfering.

These make more sense than defending against idiot admin behaviour.  
I'm still sceptical that the draft is worth pursuing: it's just not as  
bad as it first looked. I won't oppose it going forward as a WG item  
but won't support it either.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Thu Nov 20 14:20:39 2008
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[ Note: Post was moderated. ] 


This is something that should be found on the first implementation. How
is it that these kinds of bugs are just now being found?  This failure
represents a serious design flaw and evidences a lack of adequate
review, even within the definition of "Proposed Standard" status. From 
RFC 2026:

4.1.1  Proposed Standard

   The entry-level maturity for the standards track is "Proposed
   Standard".  A specific action by the IESG is required to move a
   specification onto the standards track at the "Proposed Standard"
   level.

   A Proposed Standard specification is generally stable, has resolved
   known design choices, is believed to be well-understood, has received
   significant community review, and appears to enjoy enough community
   interest to be considered valuable.  However, further experience
   might result in a change or even retraction of the specification
   before it advances.

   Usually, neither implementation nor operational experience is
   required for the designation of a specification as a Proposed
   Standard.  However, such experience is highly desirable, and will
   usually represent a strong argument in favor of a Proposed Standard
   designation.

   The IESG may require implementation and/or operational experience
   prior to granting Proposed Standard status to a specification that
   materially affects the core Internet protocols or that specifies
   behavior that may have significant operational impact on the
   Internet.

   A Proposed Standard should have no known technical omissions with
   respect to the requirements placed upon it.  However, the IESG may
   waive this requirement in order to allow a specification to advance
   to the Proposed Standard state when it is considered to be useful and
   necessary (and timely) even with known technical omissions.

Maybe the IESG should require more implementation and operational
experience with DNSSEC before going forward with poorly defined and
self-contradictory standards.

		--Dean

On Mon, 17 Nov 2008, Roy Arends wrote:

> Dear DNSEXT WG,
> 
> During an NSEC3 interoperability test we found a contradiction in RFC 
> 5155:
> 
> A NSEC3 record, that matches an Empty Non-Terminal, effectively has no 
> type associated with it. This NSEC3 record has an empty type bit map. 
> Section 3.2.1 contains the statement:
> 
>    Blocks with no types present MUST NOT be included.
> 
> However, the same section contains a regular expression:
> 
>    Type Bit Maps Field = ( Window Block # | Bitmap Length | Bitmap )+
> 
> The plus sign in the regular expression indicates that there is one or 
> more of the preceding element. This means that there must be at least one 
> window block. If this window block has no types, it contradicts with the 
> first statement. Therefore, the correct text in RFC 5155 3.2.1 should be:
> 
>    Type Bit Maps Field = ( Window Block # | Bitmap Length | Bitmap )*
> 
> I suggest we add this to dnssec-bis updates (
> draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-bis-updates-07), and we get this one character 
> error in RFC5155 ERRATA posted on the rfc-editors site. 
> 
> If the suggested change is not satisfactory, I want better text by 
> November 26th. At that point I'll brief the RFC editor and ask the chairs 
> and the dnssec-bis editors to add it to dnssec-bis updates.
> 
> With Kind Regards,
> 
> Roy Arends
> Senior Researcher
> Nominet UK
> 
> --
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] request to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt
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On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 10:10:25PM +0000, Jim Reid wrote:
> >	Some non transfer uses:
> >	* client checking that the ISP's servers are refreshing properly.
> >	* ISP check that all the zones it is serving are transfering.
> 
> These make more sense than defending against idiot admin behaviour.  
> I'm still sceptical that the draft is worth pursuing: it's just not as  
> bad as it first looked. I won't oppose it going forward as a WG item  
> but won't support it either.

This echos my feelings exactly. 

	Bert

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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:45:51 -0600
To: Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com>
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] request to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt
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At 22:10 +0000 11/20/08, Jim Reid wrote:

>These make more sense than defending against idiot admin behaviour.

I'm all for idiot-proofing the protocol. ;)

(Still, not all that convinced we need to adopt this work [yet].)
-- 
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] request to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt
References: <200811191653.mAJGqxbD027516@drugs.dv.isc.org> <B918FDB9-8C8E-4A15-B3A7-F4799502407A@rfc1035.com>
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Jim Reid wrote:
> On Nov 19, 2008, at 16:52, Mark Andrews wrote:
>
>> As per the chairs' instructions, this is a request for
>> dnsext to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt as a wg
>> item.
>
> I think this draft should not go forward as a WG item. Sorry Mark. IMO 
> it is a bad idea to change the protocol because of foolish, easily 
> avoided, administrator mistakes. [What next, we tweak the protocol to 
> cope with forwarding loops in resolvers?] If people do dumb things, 
> they need to realise their actions have consequences. That said, I 
> would support a BCP which says things like "don't set up stupid 
> transfer graphs and here's what sort of nastiness can occur when these 
> are used". Though this won't get read by the DNS admins who do silly 
> things.
Loops in the transfer graph aren't necessarily just a "mistake", they 
can be an attempt to provide optimal zone convergence even in the face 
of a single-point failure.

If your Graph Theory is superior to mine, feel free to come up with a 
non-looping graph meeting the requirement that all running slaves 
automatically get the latest copy of the zone that was transferred from 
the primary master before the single-point failure occurred. We can 
include a description of that graph that in the BCP.

The only thing I'm aware of that really *doesn't* work about loops in 
the graph, is expiration. I support Mark's draft and its attempts to 
remedy that deficiency.

- Kevin


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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:03:48 -0600
From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>
To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for ZS record
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--zhXaljGHf11kAtnf
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Dear colleagues,

Attached is a completed template requesting an RRTYPE assignment under
the procudures of draft-ietf-dnsext-2929bis.

This request will be evaluated by expert review.  This mail initiates
a three week comment period on the RRTYPE request.  If you have
comments on the request, please post them to this list.

As we've been doing so far, we'll have all the appointed experts do
the work this round.  This is slightly at variance with the procedures
as outlined in 2929bis; we're still getting experience with the
procedures, and so it seems to me to be advantageous to duplicate
effort for now to gain that experience.  I anticipate that at some
point in the future, we'll return to the practice of asking just one
expert to perform the review.

Best regards,

Andrew

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@shinkuro.com
Shinkuro, Inc.

--zhXaljGHf11kAtnf
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; Format=flowed
Content-Disposition: inline

#
#	$Id: zs-template.txt,v 1.3 2008/11/06 09:43:45 jim Exp $
#
                  DNS RRTYPE PARAMETER ALLOCATION TEMPLATE


    A.    Submission Date:

	6/11/08

    B.   Submission Type:
         [x] New RRTYPE
         [ ] Modification to existing RRTYPE

    C.   Contact Information for submitter:
                Name: Jim Reid
                Email Address: jim@telnic.org
                International telephone number: +44 20 7467 6474
                Other contact handles: none
         (Note: This information will be publicly posted)


    D.   Motivation for the new RRTYPE application?

    	There is a need to provide a mechanism in the DNS to publish
    	descriptive information about the status of the zone,
    	particularly for zones holding real-time contact data. At
    	present a variety of ad-hoc schemes and conventions are
    	used. These approaches are confusing and impractical since an
    	arbitrary DNS client needs a priori knowledge of which of
    	these schemes, if any, has been used by a zone administrator.
	Assigning a new RRtype for a resource record to hold this
    	information will provide a simple, standardised way of
    	publishing and retrieving zone status information.


    E.   Description of the proposed RR type.

    	The proposed RRtype is essentially identical to a TXT record:
    	the zone status information contained as free text in the
    	RDATA. Further details about the record format and its
    	potential applications is given in draft-reid-dnsext-zs-01.txt.

    F.   What existing RRTYPE or RRTYPEs come closest to filling that
         need and why are they unsatisfactory?

	The TXT record is the closest RRtype to the one proposed
	here. However TXT records are already used in many zones for
	a variety of purposes. This makes it awkward and impractical
	to differentiate a TXT record containing zone status
	information from other TXT records that may exist for a
	domain name. Allocating a new, dedicated RRtype for zone
	status is the cleanest way to deal with this issue. It would
	also prevent further mission creep by overloading the already
	overloaded TXT RRtype.


    G.   What mnemonic is requested for the new RRTYPE (optional)?
         Note: this can be left blank and the mnemonic decided after the
         template is accepted.

	ZS

    H.   Does the requested RRTYPE make use of any existing IANA
         Registry or require the creation of a new IANA Sub-registry and
         in DNS Parameters?

	No.

    I.   Does the proposal require/expect any changes in DNS
         servers/resolvers that prevent the new type from being
         processed as an unknown RRTYPE (see [RFC3597])?

	No.

    J.   Comments:

    	None.

_______________________________________________
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dns-rrtype-applications@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dns-rrtype-applications

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Fri Nov 21 11:11:38 2008
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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:07:14 -0600
From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>
To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for proposed RKEY RRtype
Message-ID: <20081121190713.GC20868@shinkuro.com>
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Dear colleagues,

Attached is a completed template requesting RRTYPE assignment under
the procedures defined in draft-ietf-dnsext-2929bis.  This message
initiates a thee-week comment period on this request.  Note that this
is one of two different open requests; the comment periods run
concurrently.

As with the other open request, we will process this request by the
entire panel of experts.

Best regards,

Andrew


-- 
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@shinkuro.com
Shinkuro, Inc.

--IiVenqGWf+H9Y6IX
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; Format=flowed
Content-Disposition: inline

#
#	$Id: rkey-template.txt,v 1.3 2008/11/06 09:41:48 jim Exp $
#
		DNS RRTYPE PARAMETER ALLOCATION TEMPLATE


    A.   Submission Date:

	6/11/08

    B.   Submission Type:
         [x] New RRTYPE
         [ ] Modification to existing RRTYPE

    C.   Contact Information for submitter:
                Name: Jim Reid
                Email Address: jim@telnic.org
                International telephone number: +44 20 7467 6474
                Other contact handles: none
         (Note: This information will be publicly posted)


    D.   Motivation for the new RRTYPE application?

    	Storage of keying material in the DNS is currently limited to
    	keys used for Secure DNS and transaction authentication. This
    	is somewhat limiting. It is possible to store encrypted data
    	in the DNS: for instance in the RDATA of TXT records and some
    	other RRtypes. A scheme for encrypting NAPTR records is
    	outlined in draft-timms-encrypt-naptr-01. Defining an RRtype
    	which can be used to publish the keys relating to this
    	encrypted DNS data would provide an obvious method for
    	clients to retrieve those keys so that the encrypted data can
    	be decoded.


    E.   Description of the proposed RR type.

    	The format and structure of the proposed RRtype is almost
    	identical to a KEY record. The only differences are the
    	values of the record's flags and protocol fields. In the
    	proposed RRtype, the flags field is set to zero and its
    	protocol field set to 1. Further details about the record
    	format and its potential applications is given in
    	draft-reid-dnsext-rkey-00.txt.

    F.   What existing RRTYPE or RRTYPEs come closest to filling that
         need and why are they unsatisfactory?

	The KEY and DNSKEY records are identical in format and
	structure to the proposed RRtype. Their semantics are
	different however. These RRtypes cannot be used for
	publishing arbitrary application keys that could be used to
	encrypt DNS resource records. DNSKEY is restricted to
	signatures needed for Secure DNS, DNSSEC. The scope of the
	KEY record was limited by RFC3445 to eliminate sub-typing and
	prevent the RRtype being utilised for arbitrary application
	keys. A new RRtype is therefore needed to permit application
	keys specifically for encryption of DNS resource records to
	be stored and published in the DNS.

    G.   What mnemonic is requested for the new RRTYPE (optional)?
         Note: this can be left blank and the mnemonic decided after the
         template is accepted.

	RKEY

    H.   Does the requested RRTYPE make use of any existing IANA
         Registry or require the creation of a new IANA Sub-registry and
         in DNS Parameters?

	Yes. The proposed RRtype uses the IANA sub-registry of
	security algorithm numbers established by RFC2535 and updated
	by RFC4034. The proposed RRtype does not require any
	modifications to that sub-registry.

    I.   Does the proposal require/expect any changes in DNS
         servers/resolvers that prevent the new type from being
         processed as an unknown RRTYPE (see [RFC3597])?

	No.

    J.   Comments:

    	None.

_______________________________________________
dns-rrtype-applications mailing list
dns-rrtype-applications@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dns-rrtype-applications

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From: Ted Hardie <hardie@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for ZS record
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Reading this, the justification says:

                 There is a need to provide a mechanism in the DNS to publish
    	descriptive information about the status of the zone,
    	particularly for zones holding real-time contact data. At
    	present a variety of ad-hoc schemes and conventions are
    	used. These approaches are confusing and impractical since an
    	arbitrary DNS client needs a priori knowledge of which of
    	these schemes, if any, has been used by a zone administrator.
	Assigning a new RRtype for a resource record to hold this
    	information will provide a simple, standardised way of
    	publishing and retrieving zone status information.


I don't see how the proposed ZS RRTYPE solves this problem.  It seems
like it has exactly the same problem as TXT does:  it will be completely
unstructured data.  It also seems likely that different zones might
diverge on how they present zone status information.  Is there a draft
that describes the standard for zone status information?

				regards,
					Ted Hardie

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From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@fdupont.fr>
To: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>
cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for proposed RKEY RRtype 
In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:07:14 CST.
             <20081121190713.GC20868@shinkuro.com> 
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:51:16 +0100
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Can I get in the F section a comparison with CERT RR (RFC 4398)?

Thanks

Francis.Dupont@fdupont.fr

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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 14:24:42 -0600
To: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>,
        "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org"
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From: Ted Hardie <hardie@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for ZS record
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At 11:46 AM -0800 11/21/08, Ted Hardie wrote:
>Reading this, the justification says:
>
>                 There is a need to provide a mechanism in the DNS to publish
>   	descriptive information about the status of the zone,
>   	particularly for zones holding real-time contact data. At
>   	present a variety of ad-hoc schemes and conventions are
>   	used. These approaches are confusing and impractical since an
>   	arbitrary DNS client needs a priori knowledge of which of
>   	these schemes, if any, has been used by a zone administrator.
>	Assigning a new RRtype for a resource record to hold this
>   	information will provide a simple, standardised way of
>   	publishing and retrieving zone status information.
>
>
>I don't see how the proposed ZS RRTYPE solves this problem.  It seems
>like it has exactly the same problem as TXT does:  it will be completely
>unstructured data.  It also seems likely that different zones might
>diverge on how they present zone status information.  Is there a draft
>that describes the standard for zone status information?

Olafur was kind enough to point out I had missed the reference
to draft-reid-dnsext-zs-01.txt.  I've gone and read that now,
and I still have the same issue.  It says:


   Apart from its type code, the wire and text formats for the proposed
   ZS RRtype are identical to the definitions of the TXT record given in
   RFC1035:

   ZS RDATA format

               +--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
               /                   ZS-DATA                    /
               +--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+

   where: ZS-DATA One or more character-strings.

   The ZS RRtype will hold descriptive text intended to contain
   information reflecting the status of the zone in which it is held.

It goes on in the End User Considerations:

  Users publishing ZS records SHOULD pay attention to the needs of
   potential readers of these resource records, especially with respect
   to character sets and language.  Although arbitrary text can be
   stored in character-strings, publishers of ZS records SHOULD
   carefully consider the capabilities of the devices and end users who
   query for ZS records.  For example, a mobile phone or other hand-held
   device may not have the font information or suitable rendering
   capabilities to display (say) Chinese or Arabic characters.
   Similarly, publishers of ZS records should try to avoid displaying
   information in multiple languages or assume that all readers of these
   records understand the same language or languages they have chosen to
   use.  In these circumstances it would be inadvisable to publish a
   string in a ZS record that is unlikely to be intelligible to those
   who lookup ZS records.

This does not seem to me enough information for anyone
wanting to use this to do so without zone specific information.  It
replicates the same issue raised in the template:

	These approaches are confusing and impractical since an
   	arbitrary DNS client needs a priori knowledge of which of
   	these schemes, if any, has been used by a zone administrator.

If I am missing yet more context, my apologies, but I
still don't get the real advantage.
			regards,
				Ted Hardie

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Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for proposed RKEY RRtype 
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:28:50 +0000
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On Nov 21, 2008, at 19:51, Francis Dupont wrote:

> Can I get in the F section a comparison with CERT RR (RFC 4398)?

Why? The proposed RRtype defines a public key, not a certificate.


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Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for ZS record
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:44:37 +0000
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On Nov 21, 2008, at 19:46, Ted Hardie wrote:

> I don't see how the proposed ZS RRTYPE solves this problem.  It seems
> like it has exactly the same problem as TXT does:  it will be  
> completely
> unstructured data.  It also seems likely that different zones might
> diverge on how they present zone status information.

Well, I suppose the I-D could say something like "don't put more than  
one ZS RR at any node/zone". An unstructured (human readable) text  
string is all that's needed here: anything fancier is overkill IMO. A  
TXT record can't easily provide that info because these are already  
used for too many ad-hoc purposes.

> Is there a draft that describes the standard for zone status  
> information?

No. Though there's an I-D for the template explaining how the RR could  
be used. There is a demonstrated need for this and applications  
in .tel that will use the proposed RRtype. Provided a type code gets  
issued.

All the proposed RRtype tries to achieve is provide a simple,  
lightweight method to get an unstructured string from the DNS that  
presents hopefully informative information about the zone. If a more  
structured record is needed for something more elaborate perhaps that  
could be given yet another RRtype?

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Fri Nov 21 12:52:08 2008
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cc: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for proposed RKEY RRtype 
In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:28:50 GMT.
             <A4D0B6A0-8E22-424C-AC45-F7909CE1CC66@rfc1035.com> 
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 In your previous mail you wrote:

   > Can I get in the F section a comparison with CERT RR (RFC 4398)?
   
   Why? The proposed RRtype defines a public key, not a certificate.

=> a (public-key) certificate embeds a public key.

Francis.Dupont@fdupont.fr

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Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:24:39 -0600
To: Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com>
From: Ted Hardie <hardie@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for ZS record
CC: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>,
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At 12:44 PM -0800 11/21/08, Jim Reid wrote:
>On Nov 21, 2008, at 19:46, Ted Hardie wrote:
>
>> I don't see how the proposed ZS RRTYPE solves this problem.  It seems
>> like it has exactly the same problem as TXT does:  it will be 
>> completely
>> unstructured data.  It also seems likely that different zones might
>> diverge on how they present zone status information.
>
>Well, I suppose the I-D could say something like "don't put more than 
>one ZS RR at any node/zone". An unstructured (human readable) text 
>string is all that's needed here: anything fancier is overkill IMO. A 
>TXT record can't easily provide that info because these are already 
>used for too many ad-hoc purposes.

Imagine for a moment we're dealing with four zones.  One is
subdomain.delegateddomain.example; one is .example;
one is in-addr.arpa; and one is nic.edu.cctld.  Do you expect
zone status from each one of them to share any common
vocabulary at all?  Is there any common set of tokens or
understandings about what semantics this carries?  In nic.edu.cctld,
if the zone maintainer put "Gleep" and in subdomain.delegateddommain.example
the zone maintainer put "Gleep" do you expect them to mean the same
thing?

I think I would understand this much better if ZS had a well-described
set of potential statuses, even if these are not standardized. 
"Bob's looking at it" and similarly ad-hoc descriptions seem really unlikely
to be helpful outside of the tiny set of people who know who Bob is.
But I can't tell if that sort of thing is in the universe of what you consider
reasonable things to put here.
				regards,
					Ted

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Fri Nov 21 16:16:03 2008
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for ZS record
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>
>   	There is a need to provide a mechanism in the DNS to publish
>   	descriptive information about the status of the zone,


I observe that the term 'zone' is used in the proposal.

That suggests that the applications that use this RR need to be aware  
of the administrative boundaries in the domain namespace. We do not  
have a good mechanism to find those zone boundaries and that indicates  
that there is more to this than simply query-response; there will be a  
bit of searching.

If the above assumption is correct I would claim that:
Application use as documented makes incorrect assumptions about DNS  
protocol behavior, such as wild cards, CNAME, DNAME etc.


--Olaf

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Fri Nov 21 16:56:09 2008
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for ZS record
References: <20081121190348.GB20868@shinkuro.com> <p06240603c54cc01271ad@[130.129.78.55]> <32466B95-8022-4BD3-98BE-8E0CF512DBA2@rfc1035.com>
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Jim Reid wrote:
> An unstructured (human readable) text string is all that's needed 
> here: anything fancier is overkill IMO. A TXT record can't easily 
> provide that info because these are already used for too many ad-hoc 
> purposes.
Which should be a warning against yet another "unstructured text" RRTYPE.

Lesson learned.

- Kevin


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Fri Nov 21 21:13:01 2008
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for ZS record
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 05:02:59 +0000
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On Nov 22, 2008, at 00:08, Olaf Kolkman wrote:

> I observe that the term 'zone' is used in the proposal.

Well I would have liked to call this the name status or node status  
record. Unfortunately the NS mnemonic is already in use. :-)

If another name beside "zone status" would make people more  
comfortable, please make a suggestion. I don't care what the proposed  
RRtype is called or even what its mnemonic is. What I would like is an  
registered type code instead of being forced to just pluck one from  
the air. I have assumed this was what the 2929bis process would provide.

> That suggests that the applications that use this RR need to be  
> aware of the administrative boundaries in the domain namespace.

They don't. They lookup a name (singular) and if they get a ZS record  
back, that's it. If there's nothing there, they give up. No searching  
or tree walking is involved whatsoever.

> We do not have a good mechanism to find those zone boundaries and  
> that indicates that there is more to this than simply query- 
> response; there will be a bit of searching.

There is nothing more than a simple query-response going on. It's  
wrong to suggest or imply otherwise. If the draft has language which  
gives that misleading impression, please point it out. The proposed  
RRtype is not making any assumptions about DNAME, CNAME, zone cuts,  
wildcards or any of that stuff and doesn't need to. There is  
absolutely no need for any special server or client processing for  
this proposed RRtype. It can be handled according to RFC3597.


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Fri Nov 21 21:33:26 2008
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for ZS record
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 05:26:17 +0000
References: <20081121190348.GB20868@shinkuro.com> <p06240603c54cc01271ad@[130.129.78.55]> <32466B95-8022-4BD3-98BE-8E0CF512DBA2@rfc1035.com> <p06240609c54cd42f288a@[130.129.78.55]>
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On Nov 21, 2008, at 21:24, Ted Hardie wrote:

> I think I would understand this much better if ZS had a well-described
> set of potential statuses, even if these are not standardized.
> "Bob's looking at it" and similarly ad-hoc descriptions seem really  
> unlikely
> to be helpful outside of the tiny set of people who know who Bob is.

This is precisely the audience/application for this RRtype. Suppose  
you buy ted.tel. [Available from all good registrars Real Soon  
Now. :-)] You will use this zone to publish your contact details in  
NAPTR records. An application looking up those NAPTRs could also ask  
for the ted.tel ZS record (if it existed). This would hopefully  
contain some sort of status message that you wish to associate with  
that RRset of contact details which the application could then present  
to the end user: "I'm in the IETF bar with a dead laptop", "Don't call  
my mobile because I'm overseas", that sort of thing. You would publish  
that message as a string in whatever language made most sense to  
whoever you expected to lookup the record. It's that simple.

A more structured RRtype really isn't needed for this particular  
requirement. It's also undesirable IMO since that implies subtyping  
and maintaining a registry of codes and their significance. Plus  
whatever other structure and add-on features someone might want to  
throw in. All of which will require on-going maintenance and a process  
for updating that registry. Not to mention documenting how an  
application/client/server is expected to behave when presented with  
one of these codes, etc, etc. Seems like a very large sledgehammer to  
crack a very small nut.

If you want to work on a more structured record for some future  
application, I'll be happy to help. But the requirements that ZS meets  
needs nothing fancier than a blob of text. If the proposal merited a  
more complex structure and semantics, it would have got them.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Sat Nov 22 05:19:48 2008
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From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com
To: Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com>
Cc: Ted Hardie <hardie@qualcomm.com>, Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>,
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for ZS record
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References: <20081121190348.GB20868@shinkuro.com> <p06240603c54cc01271ad@[130.129.78.55]> <32466B95-8022-4BD3-98BE-8E0CF512DBA2@rfc1035.com> <p06240609c54cd42f288a@[130.129.78.55]> <EEE60551-D104-4115-B40F-4F03844430F9@rfc1035.com>
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> This is precisely the audience/application for this RRtype. Suppose  
> you buy ted.tel. [Available from all good registrars Real Soon  
> Now. :-)] You will use this zone to publish your contact details in  
> NAPTR records. An application looking up those NAPTRs could also ask  
> for the ted.tel ZS record (if it existed). This would hopefully  
> contain some sort of status message that you wish to associate with  
> that RRset of contact details which the application could then present  
> to the end user: "I'm in the IETF bar with a dead laptop", "Don't call  
> my mobile because I'm overseas", that sort of thing. You would publish  
> that message as a string in whatever language made most sense to  
> whoever you expected to lookup the record. It's that simple.
> 

	have you considered resurecting the WKS RR for this purpose?

--bill

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Subject: [dnsext] 2929bis DNS assumptions [was RRTYPE request: template for ZS record]
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 07:26:12 -0600
References: <20081121190348.GB20868@shinkuro.com> <D7045FFF-1746-4ADD-AF56-0B876E031D51@NLnetLabs.nl> <BB2EC28B-178B-4DA8-9C14-31ED75BE2C07@rfc1035.com>
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On Nov 21, 2008, at 11:02 PM, Jim Reid wrote:

>>
>> That suggests that the applications that use this RR need to be  
>> aware of the administrative boundaries in the domain namespace.
>
> They don't. They lookup a name (singular) and if they get a ZS  
> record back, that's it. If there's nothing there, they give up. No  
> searching or tree walking is involved whatsoever.

The name of the record and the specification made me wonder: question  
needed to be asked. Your answer is clear. It is probably good to add  
this clarification to the request before it disappears in the archives.

>
>
>> We do not have a good mechanism to find those zone boundaries and  
>> that indicates that there is more to this than simply query- 
>> response; there will be a bit of searching.
>
> There is nothing more than a simple query-response going on. It's  
> wrong to suggest or imply otherwise.

Although my mail did not contain question marks it was intended as a  
question ('if the above assumption is correct').

More to draft-ietf-dnsext-2929bis than to your request. I think that  
if a specification assumes knowledge of administrative boundaries in  
the domain namespace than that is an argument to deny the code point.  
I would think that such would be an incorrect assumption about DNS  
protocol behavior. Which could be, absent further specification, a  
reason to deny the code point. Is that a reasonable assumption?

--Olaf

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Subject: Re: [dnsext] 2929bis DNS assumptions [was RRTYPE request: template for ZS record]
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 07:39:50 -0600
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On 22 nov 2008, at 07.26, Olaf Kolkman wrote:

> I think that if a specification assumes knowledge of administrative  
> boundaries in the domain namespace than that is an argument to deny  
> the code point.

+(+(+(+1)))

    paf


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Subject: Re: [dnsext] 2929bis DNS assumptions [was RRTYPE request: template for ZS record] 
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    On 22 nov 2008, at 07.26, Olaf Kolkman wrote:
    
    > I think that if a specification assumes knowledge of administrative  
    > boundaries in the domain namespace than that is an argument to deny  
    > the code point.
    
    +(+(+(+1)))
    
        paf
    
Yes, indeed,

	jaap

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Subject: Re: [dnsext] 2929bis DNS assumptions [was RRTYPE request: template for ZS record]
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References: <20081121190348.GB20868@shinkuro.com> <D7045FFF-1746-4ADD-AF56-0B876E031D51@NLnetLabs.nl> <BB2EC28B-178B-4DA8-9C14-31ED75BE2C07@rfc1035.com> <09A5C945-E769-4763-92BC-2A9032FE5502@nlnetlabs.nl>
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On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 07:26:12AM -0600, Olaf Kolkman wrote:
> 
> 
> More to draft-ietf-dnsext-2929bis than to your request. I think that  
> if a specification assumes knowledge of administrative boundaries in  
> the domain namespace than that is an argument to deny the code point.  
> 
> --Olaf

perhaps a (-1) is useful here.  there are two points in the namespace graph
that assume some knowledge of the administrative boundaries...  the root and
the leaf.

if this WKS look-alike emerges -AND- is used in the RRset of a leaf, then it
is reasonable to assume certain adminstrative bounds and no real good reason
to deny the code point.

if someone uses this elsewhere in the graph, then it has no meaning.

--bill

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Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 08:51:25 -0600
To: Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com>
From: Ted Hardie <hardie@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for ZS record
CC: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>,
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At 9:26 PM -0800 11/21/08, Jim Reid wrote:
>
>This is precisely the audience/application for this RRtype. Suppose 
>you buy ted.tel. [Available from all good registrars Real Soon 
>Now. :-)] You will use this zone to publish your contact details in 
>NAPTR records. An application looking up those NAPTRs could also ask 
>for the ted.tel ZS record (if it existed). This would hopefully 
>contain some sort of status message that you wish to associate with 
>that RRset of contact details which the application could then present 
>to the end user: "I'm in the IETF bar with a dead laptop", "Don't call 
>my mobile because I'm overseas", that sort of thing. You would publish 
>that message as a string in whatever language made most sense to 
>whoever you expected to lookup the record. It's that simple.

This seems to me to attempt to replicate the presence infrastructure
in a single DNS record.  We have a presence system already (see RFC 3859
for the pres uri, RFC 3861 for the resolution service for IM & presence,
and rfc 3953 for the ENUM presence service), along with the SIP and XMPP
RFCs for the systems supporting this.

Even if pushing presence directly into the DNS without all of the
existing presence infrastructure is a good idea (and there is a lot
this leaves out, especially in terms of ability to give multiple
different views to different requesters), this RR doesn't seem to
guarantee that other uses of this map to presence.  in-addr
records, for example, wouldn't have the same sorts of presence,
nor would sub.domain.example.  With this being unstructured,
they might well get re-used in zones like those in very different ways.

			regards,
				Ted

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On Nov 22, 2008, at 13:11, bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote:

> have you considered resurecting the WKS RR for this purpose?

No. Some bad ideas should remain dead. :-)


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Sun Nov 23 13:42:52 2008
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<html><body class=3D"ApplePlainTextBody" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">On =
Nov 22, 2008, at 14:51, Ted Hardie wrote:<br><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">This seems to me to attempt to replicate the presence =
infrastructure<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">in a single DNS =
record.<br></blockquote><br>Not really. Though it is a very dumbed down =
and informal way of providing a very limited form of presence info. It =
doesn't replicate or compete or conflict or overlap with the much more =
robust and reliable presence services you outline below. It's orthogonal =
to them.<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">We have a presence system =
already (see RFC 3859<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">for the =
pres uri, RFC 3861 for the resolution service for IM &amp; =
presence,<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">and rfc 3953 for the =
ENUM presence service), along with the SIP and =
XMPP<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">RFCs for the systems =
supporting this.<br></blockquote><br>I am aware of this. These solutions =
don't fit the requirements. One of which is to retrieve this info from =
the DNS in a single lookup. We can guarantee anyone holding a .tel =
domain will have DNS servers running. We cannot and must not assume they =
have access to a SIP or XMPP service. If the domain holders want to use =
those services for presence, that's their choice. But this proposed =
RRtype is not interfering with those mechanisms and choices. Another =
requirement is to avoid the complexity and latency of fishing through a =
bunch of NAPTRs, looking for SIP or XMPP URIs, then talking to the =
servers at the end of these URIs in the hope of maybe getting presence =
info out of them.<br><br>The mechanism is supposed to be something very =
simple and lightweight, without involving lots of protocols. And ideally =
avoiding a TCP connection. DNS does the job. Adding SIP or XMPP stacks =
to these applications would be unreasonable, especially when there might =
not be something at the other end which is providing true presence info =
because the domain owner isn't using SIP or whatever.<br></body></html>=

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On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 11:38:09PM +0000, Jim Reid wrote:
> On Nov 22, 2008, at 13:11, bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote:
> 
> >have you considered resurecting the WKS RR for this purpose?
> 
> No. Some bad ideas should remain dead. :-)

	i'm not seeing how the ZS proposal is functionally distinct
	from WKS.


--bill

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Subject: [dnsext] Re: RRTYPE request: template for proposed RKEY RRtype
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On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 08:28:50PM +0000,
 Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com> wrote 
 a message of 12 lines which said:

>> Can I get in the F section a comparison with CERT RR (RFC 4398)?
>
> Why? The proposed RRtype defines a public key, not a certificate.

Then a comparison with RFC 5205?


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Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:43:18 +0100
From: Peter Koch <pk@DENIC.DE>
To: IETF DNSEXT WG <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] 2929bis DNS assumptions [was RRTYPE request: template for ZS record]
Message-ID: <20081124164318.GD12945@x27.adm.denic.de>
References: <20081121190348.GB20868@shinkuro.com> <D7045FFF-1746-4ADD-AF56-0B876E031D51@NLnetLabs.nl> <BB2EC28B-178B-4DA8-9C14-31ED75BE2C07@rfc1035.com> <09A5C945-E769-4763-92BC-2A9032FE5502@nlnetlabs.nl>
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On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 07:26:12AM -0600, Olaf Kolkman wrote:

> if a specification assumes knowledge of administrative boundaries in  
> the domain namespace than that is an argument to deny the code point.  
> I would think that such would be an incorrect assumption about DNS  
> protocol behavior. Which could be, absent further specification, a  
> reason to deny the code point. Is that a reasonable assumption?

absolutely.  Zones provide provisioning only boundaries that MUST NOT
influence client side processing or interpretation of the data.

-Peter

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Mon Nov 24 09:32:35 2008
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Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 18:25:40 +0100
From: bert hubert <bert.hubert@netherlabs.nl>
To: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for ZS record
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On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 01:03:48PM -0600, Andrew Sullivan wrote:

>    F.   What existing RRTYPE or RRTYPEs come closest to filling that
>         need and why are they unsatisfactory?
> 
> 	The TXT record is the closest RRtype to the one proposed
> 	here. However TXT records are already used in many zones for

How about RP, Responsible Person?

It even lists some of the things we are talking about:

   sayshell.umd.edu. A     128.8.1.14
                     MX    10 sayshell.umd.edu.
                     HINFO NeXT UNIX
                     WKS   128.8.1.14 tcp ftp telnet smtp
                     RP    louie.trantor.umd.edu.  LAM1.people.umd.edu.

   LAM1.people.umd.edu. TXT (
         "Louis A. Mamakos, (301) 454-2946, don't call me at home!" )

	Bert

-- 
http://www.PowerDNS.com      Open source, database driven DNS Software 
http://netherlabs.nl              Open and Closed source services

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Mon Nov 24 09:47:34 2008
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From: Peter Koch <pk@DENIC.DE>
To: Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com>
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for ZS record
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Jim,

> They don't. They lookup a name (singular) and if they get a ZS record  
> back, that's it. If there's nothing there, they give up. No searching  
> or tree walking is involved whatsoever.

good.  The term "zone", however, implies, that the semantics apply to
more than just the node queried for. So, in your vision, would the "status"
RR for "jim.example" also cover "another.jim.example"?

> gives that misleading impression, please point it out. The proposed  
> RRtype is not making any assumptions about DNAME, CNAME, zone cuts,  
> wildcards or any of that stuff and doesn't need to. There is  
> absolutely no need for any special server or client processing for  
> this proposed RRtype. It can be handled according to RFC3597.

This proposed RR type reminds me of HINFO (rather than WKS), recognizing
that HINFO had - at least in the beginning - stricter semantics and indeed
a "registry" for its values.  Now, given that the new RR's sematics
aren't at all specified, wouldn't "TXT2" better describe it?
More serious, is the RR definition general enough or is it only useful
in a particular, maybe even highly regulated, namespace?  If the resolution
context is provided by the namespace, wouldn't a "Private Use" code do better?

-Peter

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Mon Nov 24 12:17:22 2008
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From: Stuart Cheshire <cheshire@apple.com>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] EDNS0 options open issues
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:11:15 -0800
To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur_Gu=F0mundsson_/DNSEXT_chair?= <ogud@ogud.com>
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On 20 Nov, 2008, at 05:04, =D3lafur Gu=F0mundsson /DNSEXT chair wrote:

> Q1: How do we mark Ignorable vs Required options ?
> (see Section 4.4.2 of EDNS0-bis)
> The possibilities include:
>      - Continue to define all options as ignorable

My experience is that (at least some) current DNS implementations =20
return FmtErr (1) when they receive a DNS Query with an unrecognized =20
EDNS0 option.

Therefore the de facto reality appears to be that all current EDNS0 =20
option are "reject if unknown".

Whether a given EDNS0 option is ignorable may depend on context. I =20
suggest we let the client choose, by defining the top bit as the "may =20=

ignore" flag. In other words, EDNS0 options 1, 2, 3, 4 are "reject if =20=

unknown" options, and 0x8001, 0x8002, 0x8003, 0x8004 are the "ignore =20
if unknown" versions of those same options.

> Q2: We are starting to see requests for EDNS options that are
> mostly "local scope" for MDNS/Bonjour should these be treated
> differently?

I think there's some misunderstanding here:

EDNS0 option 1: Long-Lived Query
Allows client to be notified of information changes without continual =20=

polling.
Status: Nothing to do with Multicast DNS.

EDNS0 option 2: Update Leases
Avoids unbounded amount of cruft accumulating on DNS server, =20
remaining there indefinitely until a human operator comes along to =20
clean it up.
Status: Nothing to do with Multicast DNS.

EDNS0 option 3: Name Server Identifier
Identifies which (unicast) DNS server responded to a query.
Status: Nothing to do with Multicast DNS.

EDNS0 option 4 (requested): Wake-On-LAN Owner tag
Proposal to implement the much-underutilized Wake-On-LAN capability =20
into a Dynamic DNS server.
Status: Not dependent on, but compatible with, Multicast DNS.

Stuart Cheshire <cheshire@apple.com>
* Wizard Without Portfolio, Apple Inc.
* Internet Architecture Board
* www.stuartcheshire.org


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Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:31:28 +0100
From: Peter Koch <pk@DENIC.DE>
To: IETF DNSEXT WG <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for proposed RKEY RRtype
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Hi,

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 01:07:14PM -0600, Andrew Sullivan wrote:

>    D.   Motivation for the new RRTYPE application?
> 
>    	Storage of keying material in the DNS is currently limited to
>    	keys used for Secure DNS and transaction authentication. This
>    	is somewhat limiting. It is possible to store encrypted data

well, in conjunction with RFC3445 mentioned further below, this is rather
straightforward. We've learned about "subtyping" and it was clear that
any application in need of a key would have to define its own RR type,
likely based upon KEY.

>    	other RRtypes. A scheme for encrypting NAPTR records is
>    	outlined in draft-timms-encrypt-naptr-01. Defining an RRtype

What worries me here is the actual application, that tries to introduce
confidentiality into the DNS.  The basic problem statement has been
regularily reappearing on namedroppers and might be worth pursuing,
but I'd consider taht a DNS architectural matter.  Doing this en passant
with an RR type definition appears a bit like introducing the death
sentence by standardizing the blades of the Guillotine.

>    	protocol field set to 1. Further details about the record
>    	format and its potential applications is given in
>    	draft-reid-dnsext-rkey-00.txt.

The draft indicates it is seeking "Standards Track" publication.  If that
is intentional, why is an Expert Review necessary aat this stage?
Independent of this question, 2929bis does not require a stable
reference and a draft mentioned here might just expire.  I'm not sure
this is a good idea.

-Peter

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Tue Nov 25 04:22:56 2008
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] EDNS0 options open issues
From: Shane Kerr <shane@ca.afilias.info>
To: Stuart Cheshire <cheshire@apple.com>
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
In-Reply-To: <765C8B9D-9AF9-4499-9C43-04CAF88C3C7F@apple.com>
References: <200811191653.mAJGqxbD027516@drugs.dv.isc.org>
	 <87prkqy7yl.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de>
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Stuart,

On Mon, 2008-11-24 at 12:11 -0800, Stuart Cheshire wrote:
> On 20 Nov, 2008, at 05:04, =C3=93lafur Gu=C3=B0mundsson /DNSEXT chair wro=
te:
>=20
> > Q1: How do we mark Ignorable vs Required options ?
> > (see Section 4.4.2 of EDNS0-bis)
> > The possibilities include:
> >      - Continue to define all options as ignorable
>=20
> My experience is that (at least some) current DNS implementations =20
> return FmtErr (1) when they receive a DNS Query with an unrecognized =20
> EDNS0 option.
>=20
> Therefore the de facto reality appears to be that all current EDNS0 =20
> option are "reject if unknown".
>=20
> Whether a given EDNS0 option is ignorable may depend on context. I =20
> suggest we let the client choose, by defining the top bit as the "may =20
> ignore" flag. In other words, EDNS0 options 1, 2, 3, 4 are "reject if =20
> unknown" options, and 0x8001, 0x8002, 0x8003, 0x8004 are the "ignore =20
> if unknown" versions of those same options.

Not a bad idea. Should the server return a code indicating which options
it does and does not understand? (This is beginning to smell a bit like
DHCP, BTW.)

--
Shane


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Tue Nov 25 06:51:18 2008
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My comments:


>    D.   Motivation for the new RRTYPE application?
> 
>        There is a need to provide a mechanism in the DNS to publish
>        descriptive information about the status of the zone,

This makes sense. I can see a number of registries making use of such
a record to indicate that the delegation isn't active any more, because
a domain

* has expired
* was removed by court order
* was deleted due to missed payment
* ...

(A number of registries seem to use TXT records right now to indicate
some of these states in their zone.)

>        particularly for zones holding real-time contact data. 

Here you lost me, especially with the examples you quote later in this thread.

They do not contain information about the status of a domain/zone, but
about the status (reachability, location, ...) of the _owner_ of that domain.

In the context of .tel, I can imagine a ZS record to indicate whether
the information in the zone is up-to-date or stale.

For anything else, the name just doesn't fit.

/ol
-- 
// Otmar Lendl <lendl@nic.at>, T: +43 1 5056416 - 33, F: - 933 //

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Tue Nov 25 07:11:00 2008
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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 10:06:26 -0500
To: Otmar Lendl <lendl@nic.at>
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Subject: [dnsext] whois vs. Re:...template for ZS record
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At 15:45 +0100 11/25/08, Otmar Lendl wrote:

>>     D.   Motivation for the new RRTYPE application?
>>
>>         There is a need to provide a mechanism in the DNS to publish
>>         descriptive information about the status of the zone,
>
>This makes sense. I can see a number of registries making use of such
>a record to indicate that the delegation isn't active any more, because
>a domain
>
>* has expired
>* was removed by court order
>* was deleted due to missed payment
>* ...

(A digression...)

That is what WhoIs or IRIS is for.  The DNS should neither be a 
database nor a database inspection tool.  It's just a lookup protocol.

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Never confuse activity with progress.  Activity pays more.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Tue Nov 25 07:11:35 2008
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On Nov 25, 2008, at 14:45, Otmar Lendl wrote:

> For anything else, the name just doesn't fit.

I am painfully aware of this. :-) There would have been far less noise  
on this list if the template was for the FOO record. Too much emphasis  
has been placed on the proposed name, which has sparked a discussion  
that has nothing to do with the proposed RRtype's semantics. I  
inadvertedly picked a name that needlessly caused this. Sigh.

So can we pick some other name and stop obsessing about that? The name  
of the proposed RRtype does not matter.

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References: <200811191653.mAJGqxbD027516@drugs.dv.isc.org> <87prkqy7yl.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <200811201304.mAKD4ofU007220@stora.ogud.com> <765C8B9D-9AF9-4499-9C43-04CAF88C3C7F@apple.com> <1227615383.20772.233.camel@shane-macbook-pro>
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From: Stuart Cheshire <cheshire@apple.com>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] EDNS0 options open issues
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 08:34:03 -0800
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On 25 Nov, 2008, at 04:16, Shane Kerr wrote:

> Not a bad idea. Should the server return a code indicating which  
> options
> it does and does not understand? (This is beginning to smell a bit  
> like
> DHCP, BTW.)


I personally think this is overkill.

My expectation is that mandatory options will be fairly rare, and  
packets with more than one mandatory option even rarer.

Stuart Cheshire <cheshire@apple.com>
* Wizard Without Portfolio, Apple Inc.
* Internet Architecture Board
* www.stuartcheshire.org


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Subject: [dnsext] s/ZS/NI/
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:14:46 +0000
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Someone suggested off-list that Node Information and NI might be more  
appropriate than the names which were proposed in the template I  
submitted last week and the related I-D. I agree. So, in the hope that  
this puts an end to the unnecessary focus on "zone" that has erupted  
-- and I apologise for needlessly starting --- can we please now use  
this new name and mnemonic? Please don't post any more comments about  
zone semantics in relation to this template or its old name/mnemonic.  
They're not relevant and not worthy of further discussion.

Perhaps this will mean the "WG kick here" sign that I didn't mean to  
put on my backside can now be removed. 

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Tue Nov 25 09:33:36 2008
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From: Peter Koch <pk@DENIC.DE>
To: IETF DNSEXT WG <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] request to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt
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On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 03:52:59AM +1100, Mark Andrews wrote:
> 
> 	As per the chairs' instructions, this is a request for
> 	dnsext to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt as a wg
> 	item.

this draft seems to assume that EXPIRE is a tool to deterministically bring
a zone out of service, controlled by and to the benefit of the zone
maintainer.  My reading of RFC 1034, section 4.3.5 is different: EXPIRE
is just a relief for the slave, so it doesn't have to waste more resources
on SOA checks.  I do not see how self-sustaining XFR-loops would hurt there.
Actually, many zones use dangerously low EXPIRE values and accelerating
expiration (independent of loops) might be counterproductive for them.

This suggests that a clarification of the meaning of the EXPIRE field is
probably needed. If EXPIRE was a reliable zone removal tool, how would slave
servers be expected to maintain state -- or would they be allowed to
occasionally re-query?  What's the operational scenario in which zone
removal would apply? Shouldn't this question be better addressed by a
name server control protocol?

That said, I do not believe adopting the draft is the best way forward, because
it is too deep in solution space.  Seeking clarification of EXPIRE is a
different work item and I'd support that.

-Peter

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Jim Reid wrote on 11/25/2008 06:14:46 PM:

> Someone suggested off-list that Node Information and NI might be more 
> appropriate than the names which were proposed in the template I 
> submitted last week and the related I-D. I agree. So, in the hope that 
> this puts an end to the unnecessary focus on "zone" that has erupted 
> -- and I apologise for needlessly starting --- can we please now use 
> this new name and mnemonic? Please don't post any more comments about 
> zone semantics in relation to this template or its old name/mnemonic. 
> They're not relevant and not worthy of further discussion.
> 
> Perhaps this will mean the "WG kick here" sign that I didn't mean to 
> put on my backside can now be removed. 

NI as an mnemonic collides with NI as label for the Nicaraguan TLD NI. 
Just ask the folks at MX how often this leads to confusion. Some software 
that relies on presentation format can get confused as well.

Maybe expand it to NINFO?

Roy Arends
Sr. Researcher
Nominet UK

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Tue Nov 25 11:22:00 2008
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for proposed RKEY RRtype
References: <20081121190713.GC20868@shinkuro.com>
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See below why I have reservations about the technical quality of this 
proposal document.

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> #
> #    $Id: rkey-template.txt,v 1.3 2008/11/06 09:41:48 jim Exp $
> #
>         DNS RRTYPE PARAMETER ALLOCATION TEMPLATE
> 
> 
>    A.   Submission Date:
> 
>     6/11/08
> 
>    B.   Submission Type:
>         [x] New RRTYPE
>         [ ] Modification to existing RRTYPE
> 
>    C.   Contact Information for submitter:
>                Name: Jim Reid
>                Email Address: jim@telnic.org
>                International telephone number: +44 20 7467 6474
>                Other contact handles: none
>         (Note: This information will be publicly posted)
> 
> 
>    D.   Motivation for the new RRTYPE application?
> 
>        Storage of keying material in the DNS is currently limited to
>        keys used for Secure DNS and transaction authentication. This
>        is somewhat limiting. It is possible to store encrypted data
>        in the DNS: for instance in the RDATA of TXT records and some
>        other RRtypes. A scheme for encrypting NAPTR records is
>        outlined in draft-timms-encrypt-naptr-01. Defining an RRtype
>        which can be used to publish the keys relating to this
>        encrypted DNS data would provide an obvious method for
>        clients to retrieve those keys so that the encrypted data can
>        be decoded.
> 

If clients retrieve keys to *decode* encrypted data from the public DNS, 
then what prevents unauthorized parties from doing the same?

> 
>    E.   Description of the proposed RR type.
> 
>        The format and structure of the proposed RRtype is almost
>        identical to a KEY record. The only differences are the
>        values of the record's flags and protocol fields. In the
>        proposed RRtype, the flags field is set to zero and its
>        protocol field set to 1. Further details about the record
>        format and its potential applications is given in
>        draft-reid-dnsext-rkey-00.txt.
> 
>    F.   What existing RRTYPE or RRTYPEs come closest to filling that
>         need and why are they unsatisfactory?
> 
>     The KEY and DNSKEY records are identical in format and
>     structure to the proposed RRtype. Their semantics are
>     different however. These RRtypes cannot be used for
>     publishing arbitrary application keys that could be used to
>     encrypt DNS resource records. DNSKEY is restricted to
>     signatures needed for Secure DNS, DNSSEC. The scope of the
>     KEY record was limited by RFC3445 to eliminate sub-typing and
>     prevent the RRtype being utilised for arbitrary application
>     keys. A new RRtype is therefore needed to permit application
>     keys specifically for encryption of DNS resource records to
>     be stored and published in the DNS.
> 
>    G.   What mnemonic is requested for the new RRTYPE (optional)?
>         Note: this can be left blank and the mnemonic decided after the
>         template is accepted.
> 
>     RKEY
> 
>    H.   Does the requested RRTYPE make use of any existing IANA
>         Registry or require the creation of a new IANA Sub-registry and
>         in DNS Parameters?
> 
>     Yes. The proposed RRtype uses the IANA sub-registry of
>     security algorithm numbers established by RFC2535 and updated
>     by RFC4034. The proposed RRtype does not require any
>     modifications to that sub-registry.
> 

Public key encryption algorithms, if that's what this proposal is all 
about, are different from signature algorithms. Hence, the deployment of 
the proposal would require some additions to the IANA registry.

>    I.   Does the proposal require/expect any changes in DNS
>         servers/resolvers that prevent the new type from being
>         processed as an unknown RRTYPE (see [RFC3597])?
> 
>     No.
> 
>    J.   Comments:
> 
>        None.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> dns-rrtype-applications mailing list
> dns-rrtype-applications@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dns-rrtype-applications

Given the state of this proposal at its face value, I didn't check the 
referenced draft. Please provide a revised proposal that makes sense 
with respect to basic public key cryptography principles, if there is 
anything that makes sense.

Should I apologize for harsh critiques?

Regards,


-- 

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Subject: Re: [dnsext] s/ZS/NI/
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:27:16 +0000
References: <E3791838-0411-49B4-B455-96646217C699@rfc1035.com> <OF81735247.E7DEE05B-ON8025750C.00688864-C125750C.006923C3@nominet.org.uk>
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On Nov 25, 2008, at 19:08, Roy Arends wrote:

> Maybe expand it to NINFO?

Sure. Whatever. :-)

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--On 21 November 2008 13:03:48 -0600 Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com> 
wrote:

> draft-reid-dnsext-zs-01.txt

OK, so quite apart from the ZI/NI/NINFO point, my observations are as
follows.

The above draft notes correctly (at 2) that:
   The DNS does
   not currently provide a well defined mechanism for obtaining
   information about the status of a zone: what it is being used for,
   the significance of the zone's contents, when the zone was last
   updated and so on.  This means a variety of ad-hoc techniques are
   deployed whenever zone administrators choose to make this information
   available

and that (at 4):
   TXT records are unsuitable for providing this sort of zone status
   information because the semantics of TXT record RDATA are
   unstructured.  TXT records can and are used for all sorts of
   purposes: version control strings, comments or reminders to zone
   administrators, anti-spam information, references to ticketing
   systems, contact details of the zone administrator and so on.  It
   would be impractical for an application to interpret the contents of
   a response to a TXT query and guess which, if any, of the returned
   TXT records contained meaningful data about the status of the zone.

I don't see how ZI/NI/NINFO helps here. As far as I can tell, the
proposed record is similarly unstructured. The draft gives the
proposed (I think) example of a ZI record (at 3) the textual string
   "Use of example.net was
   deprecated on April 1st.  Please visit example.com instead."

OK so that can be separated from various other non-informational
possible uses of TXT records (i.e. anything outside the rather
broad scope of this proposal), but I don't see how an
"application can interpret" the contents of a ZI record
any more than it can a TXT record.

Equally, as the proposed purpose is so broad, it might be
necessary to use it for two purposes, e.g. pending deprecation,
and "Bill's not on this number right now, he's on that number".
The proposed scheme gives no means of determining between the two.
So in an environment where it can be parsed by an application,
it isn't even possible for application X to distinguish between
strings intended for application X and strings that X can parse
that were in fact intended for application Y.

I'm sort of reading between the lines as to the proposed usage,
and thinking perhaps (ab)using an SRV type structure might be the
right way forward. If one (mis)used a protocol definition
to mean "application / end user specific data" (say a
rogue value of _app for the protocol field), one could
at least distinguish fooco's app "out of office" by
something like:

 _outofoffice._fooco_com.jim.example.com 3600 IN NINFO "ABC123: Jim is out 
of the office until 3pm"

(and letting the underscore translation from fooco.com act as
the sufficient guarantee of uniqueness).

On the other hand, perhaps even this could be done with a TXT record
equally well.

Alex

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To: Peter Koch <pk@DENIC.DE>
Cc: IETF DNSEXT WG <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>
From: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] request to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:28:01 BST."
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In message <20081125172801.GG8879@unknown.office.denic.de>, Peter Koch writes:
> On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 03:52:59AM +1100, Mark Andrews wrote:
> > 
> > 	As per the chairs' instructions, this is a request for
> > 	dnsext to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt as a wg
> > 	item.
> 
> this draft seems to assume that EXPIRE is a tool to deterministically bring
> a zone out of service, controlled by and to the benefit of the zone
> maintainer.  My reading of RFC 1034, section 4.3.5 is different: EXPIRE
> is just a relief for the slave, so it doesn't have to waste more resources
> on SOA checks.  I do not see how self-sustaining XFR-loops would hurt there.
> Actually, many zones use dangerously low EXPIRE values and accelerating
> expiration (independent of loops) might be counterproductive for them.

	The purpose of expire is to stop stale data being served.

	"If the secondary finds it impossible to perform a serial
	check for the EXPIRE interval, it must assume that its copy
	of the zone is obsolete an discard it."

	No where do I see any text which says that a slave will
	stop attempting to transfer the zone if it's old copy has
	expired.

	As for dangerously low EXPIRE values they are a problem with
	or without loops in the zone trasnfer graph.

> This suggests that a clarification of the meaning of the EXPIRE field is
> probably needed. If EXPIRE was a reliable zone removal tool, how would slave
> servers be expected to maintain state -- or would they be allowed to
> occasionally re-query?  What's the operational scenario in which zone
> removal would apply? Shouldn't this question be better addressed by a
> name server control protocol?

	It's not a zone removal tool.  It a stale data removal tool.
 
> That said, I do not believe adopting the draft is the best way forward, becau
> se
> it is too deep in solution space.  Seeking clarification of EXPIRE is a
> different work item and I'd support that.
> 
> -Peter
> 
> --
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-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org

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From: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] s/ZS/NI/ 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:27:16 -0000."
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In message <0E2210E0-8F9B-4BB8-B008-49DBEE21FC5E@rfc1035.com>, Jim Reid writes:
> On Nov 25, 2008, at 19:08, Roy Arends wrote:
> 
> > Maybe expand it to NINFO?
> 
> Sure. Whatever. :-)

	And with ICANN's plans to expand the root we may well see
	NINFO as a TLD.
 
	Mark
-- 
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1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org

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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 15:24:16 -0800
Subject: Re: [dnsext] s/ZS/NI/ 
Thread-Topic: [dnsext] s/ZS/NI/ 
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On 11/25/08 2:57 PM, "Mark Andrews" <Mark_Andrews@isc.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe expand it to NINFO?
>>
>> Sure. Whatever. :-)
>
>         And with ICANN's plans to expand the root we may well see
>         NINFO as a TLD.

Is there any strong justification for reserving RR types against being TLDs
(or vice versa)? If so, now would be a rather good time to discuss it befor=
e
any future TLD policy is crystalised.

kim


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we already have a reserved list, so as a rule, future tld applications 
shouldn't use existing (also in the heady future) RR types, or small 
trains that other kids are known to play with.

Kim Davies wrote:
> On 11/25/08 2:57 PM, "Mark Andrews" <Mark_Andrews@isc.org> wrote:
>   
>>>> Maybe expand it to NINFO?
>>>>         
>>> Sure. Whatever. :-)
>>>       
>>         And with ICANN's plans to expand the root we may well see
>>         NINFO as a TLD.
>>     
>
> Is there any strong justification for reserving RR types against being TLDs
> (or vice versa)? If so, now would be a rather good time to discuss it before
> any future TLD policy is crystalised.
>
> kim
>
>
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 <20081125172801.GG8879@unknown.office.denic.de>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 23:03:22 -0500
To: Peter Koch <pk@DENIC.DE>
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] request to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt
Cc: IETF DNSEXT WG <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>
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At 18:28 +0100 11/25/08, Peter Koch wrote:

>That said, I do not believe adopting the draft is the best way 
>forward, because
>it is too deep in solution space.  Seeking clarification of EXPIRE is a
>different work item and I'd support that.

Should that be in AXFR clarify? I know, I promise, I'm home for a while now.
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Tue Nov 25 21:56:52 2008
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Mark Andrews wrote:
> In message <20081125172801.GG8879@unknown.office.denic.de>, Peter Koch writes:
>   
>> On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 03:52:59AM +1100, Mark Andrews wrote:
>>     
>>> 	As per the chairs' instructions, this is a request for
>>> 	dnsext to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt as a wg
>>> 	item.
>>>       
>> this draft seems to assume that EXPIRE is a tool to deterministically bring
>> a zone out of service, controlled by and to the benefit of the zone
>> maintainer.  My reading of RFC 1034, section 4.3.5 is different: EXPIRE
>> is just a relief for the slave, so it doesn't have to waste more resources
>> on SOA checks.  I do not see how self-sustaining XFR-loops would hurt there.
>> Actually, many zones use dangerously low EXPIRE values and accelerating
>> expiration (independent of loops) might be counterproductive for them.
>>     
>
> 	The purpose of expire is to stop stale data being served.
>
> 	"If the secondary finds it impossible to perform a serial
> 	check for the EXPIRE interval, it must assume that its copy
> 	of the zone is obsolete an discard it."
>
> 	No where do I see any text which says that a slave will
> 	stop attempting to transfer the zone if it's old copy has
> 	expired.
>   
Indeed, unless one interprets "discard" in the RFC as implying actual 
zone removal. I interpret it as more of a "defined but disabled" status.

One would hope, however, that implementations, if any, which continue to 
attempt refreshes after expiration, would be reasonable and prioritize 
refreshes of "live" zones over ones which are expired and -might- become 
available again. Maybe an exponential backoff to some baseline, largish 
refresh interval (e.g. a day or more) would be appropriate.

                                                                         
               - Kevin


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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

Stuart Cheshire wrote:
> On 25 Nov, 2008, at 04:16, Shane Kerr wrote:
>> Not a bad idea. Should the server return a code indicating which options
>> it does and does not understand? (This is beginning to smell a bit like
>> DHCP, BTW.)
> I personally think this is overkill.
> 
> My expectation is that mandatory options will be fairly rare, and
> packets with more than one mandatory option even rarer.

At this time all EDNS options are (formally) optional.

  4.4.2. Any OPTION-CODE values not understood by a responder
  or requestor MUST be ignored.

It is sad to hear there are broken implementations that do not ignore
but fail on unknown options.  The update draft may add emphasis on it,
or note that EDNS options may cause failure and cause combinatorial
explosion of trials to determine remote support.

Best regards,
   Wouter
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On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 03:24:16PM -0800,
 Kim Davies <kim.davies@icann.org> wrote 
 a message of 20 lines which said:

> Is there any strong justification for reserving RR types against
> being TLDs (or vice versa)?

No. The only reason I see (Roy Arends' example with MX/MG and may be
IN) comes from a very bad user interface design decision in dig... 

We should not make policy decisions because dig tries to be smart and
guesses (badly, quite often) what is the QTYPE and what is the domain
name.



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On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 07:04:13PM -0500,
 Eric Brunner-Williams <ebw@abenaki.wabanaki.net> wrote 
 a message of 34 lines which said:

> we already have a reserved list, so as a rule, future tld
> applications shouldn't use existing (also in the heady future) RR
> types,

I disagree. With ICANN's plans to seriously increase the number of TLD
and IETF's plans to make easier to get a RR type
(draft-ietf-dnsext-2929bis), this will soon become intractable.

I want my ".aaaa" in the root, with only IPv6 name servers accepted
:-)


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Wed Nov 26 01:08:54 2008
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        "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>
From: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: s/ZS/NI/ 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 26 Nov 2008 08:55:59 BST."
             <20081126075559.GA17293@nic.fr> 
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In message <20081126075559.GA17293@nic.fr>, Stephane Bortzmeyer writes:
> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 03:24:16PM -0800,
>  Kim Davies <kim.davies@icann.org> wrote 
>  a message of 20 lines which said:
> 
> > Is there any strong justification for reserving RR types against
> > being TLDs (or vice versa)?
> 
> No. The only reason I see (Roy Arends' example with MX/MG and may be
> IN) comes from a very bad user interface design decision in dig... 
> 
> We should not make policy decisions because dig tries to be smart and
> guesses (badly, quite often) what is the QTYPE and what is the domain
> name.

	Well for the very few times one needs to look up a TLD with
	dig "mx." etc. works well.  Most of the time treating "mx" as
	a MX record will be correct.

	Mark
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Wed Nov 26 01:15:39 2008
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To: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
cc: Peter Koch <pk@DENIC.DE>, IETF DNSEXT WG <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] request to adopt draft-andrews-dnsext-expire-00.txt 
In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 25 Nov 2008 23:03:22 -0500.
             <a06240802c5527ad660c3@[0.0.0.0]> 
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 10:07:43 +0100
From: Jaap Akkerhuis <jaap@NLnetLabs.nl>
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    >That said, I do not believe adopting the draft is the best way 
    >forward, because
    >it is too deep in solution space.  Seeking clarification of EXPIRE is a
    >different work item and I'd support that.
    
    Should that be in AXFR clarify? I know, I promise, I'm home for
    a while now.

Seems like the proper place to me.

I'll read your homework when you're done.

	jaap

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From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
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Subject: [dnsext] Re: s/ZS/NI/
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On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 08:01:27PM +1100,
 Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org> wrote 
 a message of 25 lines which said:

>       Most of the time treating "mx" as a MX record will be correct.

Not when you happen to live in Veracruz or Oaxaca.

And I have teached dig in Madagascar and it is a real pain to explain
to people that you need to put a dot after "MG" but not after "FR"
(people may think that MX is a possible QTYPE but nobody remembers
MG).

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Wed Nov 26 01:39:41 2008
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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 09:34:01 +0000
From: Alex Bligh <alex@alex.org.uk>
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To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>,
 Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
cc: Kim Davies <kim.davies@icann.org>, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org,
 Alex Bligh <alex@alex.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: s/ZS/NI/
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--On 26 November 2008 10:11:27 +0100 Stephane Bortzmeyer 
<bortzmeyer@nic.fr> wrote:

>>       Most of the time treating "mx" as a MX record will be correct.
>
> Not when you happen to live in Veracruz or Oaxaca.
>
> And I have teached dig in Madagascar and it is a real pain to explain
> to people that you need to put a dot after "MG" but not after "FR"
> (people may think that MX is a possible QTYPE but nobody remembers
> MG).

This is a dig problem and should not influence us. The fact that
 $ dig ANY mx
does not do what you might think it ought to (but instead warns
of an "extra type option"), but
 $ dig -t ANY mx
does rather illustrates that its command line parsing is suboptimal.

--
Alex

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Wed Nov 26 01:48:36 2008
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From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: Alex Bligh <alex@alex.org.uk>
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: [dnsext] Re: s/ZS/NI/
Message-ID: <20081126093928.GA31401@nic.fr>
References: <20081126075559.GA17293@nic.fr> <200811260901.mAQ91RDv034101@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20081126091127.GA26991@nic.fr> <C91F8D928C6CF580EEB88C64@nimrod.local>
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On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 09:34:01AM +0000,
 Alex Bligh <alex@alex.org.uk> wrote 
 a message of 23 lines which said:

> This is a dig problem and should not influence us. 

Exactly what I said: we should NOT prevent TLD from being named with
names identical to RR types. The fact that some tools have problems
with it should not influence us.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Wed Nov 26 02:37:42 2008
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To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
Cc: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>, Kim Davies <kim.davies@icann.org>,
   "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: s/ZS/NI/
Message-ID: <20081126102537.GA11146@vacation.karoshi.com.>
References: <20081126075559.GA17293@nic.fr> <200811260901.mAQ91RDv034101@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20081126091127.GA26991@nic.fr>
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On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 10:11:27AM +0100, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 08:01:27PM +1100,
>  Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org> wrote 
>  a message of 25 lines which said:
> 
> >       Most of the time treating "mx" as a MX record will be correct.
> 
> Not when you happen to live in Veracruz or Oaxaca.
> 
> And I have teached dig in Madagascar and it is a real pain to explain
> to people that you need to put a dot after "MG" but not after "FR"
> (people may think that MX is a possible QTYPE but nobody remembers
> MG).
> 

	not using or enforcing the dot is sloppy.
	and yes, we remember MG...

--bill

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Wed Nov 26 04:18:00 2008
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From: Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com>
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for ZS record
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 12:10:17 +0000
References: <20081121190348.GB20868@shinkuro.com> <EB08D278326325AEFADCFE3E@Ximines.local>
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On Nov 25, 2008, at 20:01, Alex Bligh wrote:

> but I don't see how an "application can interpret" the contents of a  
> ZI record
> any more than it can a TXT record.

This is true. However with a new RRtype, these messages can at least  
be separated from whatever TXT record gunk is already in use. BTW,  
there are no semantics here for applications to interpret: if they  
lookup an NINFO record, they just present it/them to the end user.

> one could at least distinguish fooco's app "out of office" by
> something like:
>
> _outofoffice._fooco_com.jim.example.com 3600 IN NINFO "ABC123: Jim  
> is out of the office until 3pm"
>
> (and letting the underscore translation from fooco.com act as
> the sufficient guarantee of uniqueness).
>
> On the other hand, perhaps even this could be done with a TXT record
> equally well.

And both would rely on clients having a priori knowledge of which  
string to prepend to the name to get a status message for a particular  
purpose. Or would force clients to enumerate all possible prefix  
combinations in order to find out which one, if any, has the flavour- 
of-the-moment NINFO record. Which can't work.


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Wed Nov 26 04:23:02 2008
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From: Alex Bligh <alex@alex.org.uk>
Reply-To: Alex Bligh <alex@alex.org.uk>
To: Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com>
cc: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org,
 Alex Bligh <alex@alex.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for ZS record
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--On 26 November 2008 12:10:17 +0000 Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com> wrote:

> And both would rely on clients having a priori knowledge of which string
> to prepend to the name to get a status message for a particular purpose.
> Or would force clients to enumerate all possible prefix combinations in
> order to find out which one, if any, has the flavour-of-the-moment NINFO
> record. Which can't work.

If an *application* can interpret it (as per the draft), it must have a
priori knowledge of the format of the record, which makes it no harder
to give it a priori knowledge of the name to prepend (or whatever).

If your idea is to give a status field which cannot necessarily be
interpreted by an application (but perhaps can be by a human being who
speaks the appropriate language), then this isn't an issue. But then this
isn't what the draft says, and I don't really understand what it's for
(sorry).

Alex

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Wed Nov 26 07:03:55 2008
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for proposed RKEY RRtype
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> If clients retrieve keys to *decode* encrypted data from the public  
> DNS, then what prevents unauthorized parties from doing the same?

Because only authorised clients will have the corresponding private  
key(s). Since there may be many keys in use an RKEY RRtype tells the  
client which (if any) of the private keys it holds can be used to do  
the decoding. It also allows for new keys to be introduced: either by  
rollover to a new one, or a change of algorithm or key size. It's  
pretty much the same principle as DNSKEY for DNSSEC signatures. Which  
is why the records are almost identical.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Wed Nov 26 07:12:55 2008
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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 10:04:44 -0500
To: Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com>
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for ZS record
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At 12:10 +0000 11/26/08, Jim Reid wrote:

>And both would rely on clients having a priori knowledge of which string to
>prepend to the name to get a status message for a particular purpose. Or would
>force clients to enumerate all possible prefix combinations in order to find
>out which one, if any, has the flavour-of-the-moment NINFO record. Which can't
>work.

Clients have to have a priori knowledge of the type to as ask for. 
You can standardize on one prefix.  The difference is between asking 
for:

        domain.name.tld / NINFO / INclass
or for this:
        ninfo.domain.name.tld. / TXT / INclass

I know I prefer the former myself, but, I also get the willies adding 
TXT2.  The only place there is unstructured data in DNS is the TXT 
record.

"Node Information" is something that could be generally co-opted for 
other purposes and hence the string it contains might take on other 
semantics.  This is my reluctance.  What keeps other records - other 
than TXT - from being co-opted?  Hmmm.
-- 
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Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Wed Nov 26 09:26:44 2008
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Jim Reid wrote:
>> If clients retrieve keys to *decode* encrypted data from the public  
>> DNS, then what prevents unauthorized parties from doing the same?
> 
> 
> Because only authorised clients will have the corresponding private  
> key(s). Since there may be many keys in use an RKEY RRtype tells the  
> client which (if any) of the private keys it holds can be used to do  
> the decoding. It also allows for new keys to be introduced: either by  
> rollover to a new one, or a change of algorithm or key size. It's  
> pretty much the same principle as DNSKEY for DNSSEC signatures. Which  
> is why the records are almost identical.
> 

I acknowledge that you answered one of the two questions I raised. I 
abstain from participating any further in this discussion, because I 
don't want to delve into the security scheme and the corresponding key 
management principles.

Regards,

-- 

- Thierry Moreau

CONNOTECH Experts-conseils inc.
9130 Place de Montgolfier
Montreal, Qc
Canada   H2M 2A1

Tel.: (514)385-5691
Fax:  (514)385-5900

web site: http://www.connotech.com
e-mail: thierry.moreau@connotech.com


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From: Stuart Cheshire <cheshire@apple.com>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] EDNS0 options open issues
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 09:47:29 -0800
To: W.C.A. Wijngaards <wouter@nlnetlabs.nl>
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On 25 Nov, 2008, at 23:44, W.C.A. Wijngaards wrote:
> At this time all EDNS options are (formally) optional.
>
>   4.4.2. Any OPTION-CODE values not understood by a responder
>   or requestor MUST be ignored.
>
> It is sad to hear there are broken implementations that do not ignore
> but fail on unknown options.  The update draft may add emphasis on it,
> or note that EDNS options may cause failure and cause combinatorial
> explosion of trials to determine remote support.
>
> Best regards,
>    Wouter


The document can say whatever we like -- and that won't change the  
actual behavior in the real world.

If you want to write robust EDNS0 client code for widespread use,  
that code has to be written to expect that servers/caches/forwarders  
written before EDNS0 (or written by people who choose to ignore  
EDNS0) may return errors if there are *any* EDNS0 options in the packet.

Stuart Cheshire <cheshire@apple.com>
* Wizard Without Portfolio, Apple Inc.
* Internet Architecture Board
* www.stuartcheshire.org


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Subject: [dnsext] BCP 42, RFC 5395 on Domain Name System (DNS) IANA Considerations
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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

        BCP 42        
        RFC 5395

        Title:      Domain Name System (DNS) IANA 
                    Considerations 
        Author:     D. Eastlake 3rd
        Status:     Best Current Practice
        Date:       November 2008
        Mailbox:    d3e3e3@gmail.com
        Pages:      17
        Characters: 33725
        Obsoletes:  RFC2929
        Updates:    RFC1183, RFC3597
        See Also:   BCP0042

        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-dnsext-2929bis-07.txt

        URL:        http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5395.txt

Internet Assigned Number Authority (IANA) parameter assignment
considerations are specified for the allocation of Domain Name System
(DNS) resource record types, CLASSes, operation codes, error codes,
DNS protocol message header bits, and AFSDB resource record subtypes.  
This document specifies an Internet Best Current Practices for the
Internet Community, and requests discussion and suggestions for
improvements.

This document is a product of the DNS Extensions Working Group of the IETF.


BCP: This document specifies an Internet Best Current Practices for the
Internet Community, and requests discussion and suggestions for 
improvements. Distribution of this memo is unlimited.

This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists.
To subscribe or unsubscribe, see
  http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
  http://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist

For searching the RFC series, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcsearch.html.
For downloading RFCs, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc.html.

Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the
author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org.  Unless
specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for
unlimited distribution.


The RFC Editor Team
USC/Information Sciences Institute



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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:22:35 -0800
To: Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com>, Alex Bligh <alex@alex.org.uk>
From: Ted Hardie <hardie@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for ZS record
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At 4:10 AM -0800 11/26/08, Jim Reid wrote:
>On Nov 25, 2008, at 20:01, Alex Bligh wrote:
>
>> but I don't see how an "application can interpret" the contents of a 
>> ZI record
>> any more than it can a TXT record.
>
>This is true. However with a new RRtype, these messages can at least 
>be separated from whatever TXT record gunk is already in use. BTW, 
>there are no semantics here for applications to interpret: if they 
>lookup an NINFO record, they just present it/them to the end user.

I believe I understand the requirements here, but I don't believe
a new record is indicated.  In the .tel example Jim has given there
is no real reason for the TXT records with "lots of other gunk" to be
present--what, someone is going to be putting SPF records in my
.tel aor record? 

If we do include this, I strongly believe it will be immediately
re-used for other "whatever you'd like" style records, and that the
gunk argument *there* will repeat.  There is nothing to protect
this from re-use.

There are lots of other ways to do presence; doing it in the DNS
isn't that great an optimization, and doing it in TXT in the DNS
is not greatly different from this.  Tell the application to display
TXT records with the prefix NINFO and none others.   Yes, if
you somehow have both NINFO and 13-dozen other TXT records,
you might have to fall back to TCP.  But the chance of that in
the given use case seems reasonably remote, and the chance
of additional clutter with another unstructured record seems
pretty high.

2 cents,
				Ted




> > one could at least distinguish fooco's app "out of office" by
>> something like:
>>
>> _outofoffice._fooco_com.jim.example.com 3600 IN NINFO "ABC123: Jim 
>> is out of the office until 3pm"
>>
>> (and letting the underscore translation from fooco.com act as
>> the sufficient guarantee of uniqueness).
>>
>> On the other hand, perhaps even this could be done with a TXT record
>> equally well.
>
>And both would rely on clients having a priori knowledge of which 
>string to prepend to the name to get a status message for a particular 
>purpose. Or would force clients to enumerate all possible prefix 
>combinations in order to find out which one, if any, has the flavour-
>of-the-moment NINFO record. Which can't work.
>
>
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] EDNS0 options open issues
References: <200811191653.mAJGqxbD027516@drugs.dv.isc.org> <87prkqy7yl.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <200811201304.mAKD4ofU007220@stora.ogud.com> <765C8B9D-9AF9-4499-9C43-04CAF88C3C7F@apple.com> <1227615383.20772.233.camel@shane-macbook-pro> <E8671D17-76E8-43E2-BBB1-48AD93FAE608@apple.com> <492CFE5A.5090608@nlnetlabs.nl> <A2C64220-BC6E-45E3-896A-04FA44BDE2EF@apple.com>
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi Stuart,

Stuart Cheshire wrote:
> The document can say whatever we like -- and that won't change the
> actual behavior in the real world.

Agreed.  And our code (or future protocols) must work in that real world.

> If you want to write robust EDNS0 client code for widespread use, that
> code has to be written to expect that servers/caches/forwarders written
> before EDNS0 (or written by people who choose to ignore EDNS0) may
> return errors if there are *any* EDNS0 options in the packet.

Was I misunderstanding you? Do you mean formerr because of the EDNS OPT
record.  Or do you mean formerr because of an EDNS option field inside
the OPT record, where presumably that same EDNS OPT record without that
option field would have succeeded?

The latter worries me more. We have EDNS support detection now, but
EDNS-option-field detection, as you say, is a lot of trouble.

Best regards,
   Wouter
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Subject: RRTYPE love, was Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for ZS
 record
From: Shane Kerr <shane@ca.afilias.info>
To: Ted Hardie <hardie@qualcomm.com>
Cc: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>
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Ted,

On Wed, 2008-11-26 at 16:22 -0800, Ted Hardie wrote:
> At 4:10 AM -0800 11/26/08, Jim Reid wrote:
> >On Nov 25, 2008, at 20:01, Alex Bligh wrote:
> >
> >> but I don't see how an "application can interpret" the contents of a 
> >> ZI record
> >> any more than it can a TXT record.
> >
> >This is true. However with a new RRtype, these messages can at least 
> >be separated from whatever TXT record gunk is already in use. BTW, 
> >there are no semantics here for applications to interpret: if they 
> >lookup an NINFO record, they just present it/them to the end user.
> 
> I believe I understand the requirements here, but I don't believe
> a new record is indicated.  In the .tel example Jim has given there
> is no real reason for the TXT records with "lots of other gunk" to be
> present--what, someone is going to be putting SPF records in my
> .tel aor record? 
> 
> If we do include this, I strongly believe it will be immediately
> re-used for other "whatever you'd like" style records, and that the
> gunk argument *there* will repeat.  There is nothing to protect
> this from re-use.
> 
> There are lots of other ways to do presence; doing it in the DNS
> isn't that great an optimization, and doing it in TXT in the DNS
> is not greatly different from this.  Tell the application to display
> TXT records with the prefix NINFO and none others.   Yes, if
> you somehow have both NINFO and 13-dozen other TXT records,
> you might have to fall back to TCP.  But the chance of that in
> the given use case seems reasonably remote, and the chance
> of additional clutter with another unstructured record seems
> pretty high.

I guess the IETF does not want to support standards that it does not
consider "good". However, in the past this has led to people simply
ignoring the IETF and doing things their own way, in an undocumented and
non-interoperable way. Why yes, I *am* thinking of NAT and Skype and P2P
and SPF and plenty of other things I use daily...

IIRC, the SPF folks put records into TXT records because they had no
other way to do it. In the midst of the nuclear-hot flames that were
directed their way when they entered the IETF arena were complaints that
they were putting structured data into an unstructured field. So, now we
have the SPF record. (I may not be remembering this perfectly, so
someone involved with the effort feel free to correct me.)

Based on that history, I think Jim is Doing the Right Thing by trying to
get the NINFO RR assigned.


Regarding whether or not we want DNS to allow "gunk" or "clutter", I
have to admit I don't share the DNS religion about wanting to keep stuff
*out* of the DNS. I think there are huge classes of problems that share
similar properties to things that do work well with DNS-style lookups,
and given that DNS is arguably the most successful distributed database
it makes sense that these will appear.

This desire has been there as long as I have been working with DNS, and
will only get worse once people have the ability to authenticate the
contents of DNS.


Regarding the specific proposal... I agree that asking for a bit more
structure makes sense. Perhaps some ideas from existing presence
mechanisms can be used?

--
Shane


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org  Thu Nov 27 16:07:36 2008
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the DNS Extensions Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : DNS Proxy Implementation Guidelines
	Author(s)       : R. Bellis
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dnsext-dnsproxy-00.txt
	Pages           : 12
	Date            : 2008-11-27

This document provides guidelines for the implementation of DNS
proxies, as found in broadband routers and other similar network
devices.

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http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-dnsproxy-00.txt

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Subject: Re: RRTYPE love, was Re: [dnsext] RRTYPE request: template for ZS
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On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 01:12:33PM +0100,
 Shane Kerr <shane@ca.afilias.info> wrote 
 a message of 77 lines which said:

> IIRC, the SPF folks put records into TXT records because they had no
> other way to do it. In the midst of the nuclear-hot flames that were
> directed their way when they entered the IETF arena were complaints
> that they were putting structured data into an unstructured
> field. So, now we have the SPF record. (I may not be remembering
> this perfectly, so someone involved with the effort feel free to
> correct me.)

No, no, you're right. But there is one more thing to consider: it was
before RFC 5395 and, at this time, registering a new RR type was very
complicated (even if the IETF denied it).



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