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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@icann.org>
CC: "doh@ietf.org" <doh@ietf.org>, "ADD Mailing list (add@ietf.org)" <add@ietf.org>, "Murray S. Kucherawy" <superuser@gmail.com>, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-btw-add-rfc8484-clarification (was RE: [Doh] [Ext] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8484 (6033))
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 08:22:31 +0000
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Subject: [Doh] draft-btw-add-rfc8484-clarification (was RE: [Ext] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8484 (6033))
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Hi Paul, Barry, all,

(+add wg as I guess the draft should be discussed there)

We prepared a document to clarify the redirection issue: https://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/doc/draft-btw-add-rfc8484-clarification/=20

The document specifies also how redirection can be done in DoH.=20

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Paul Hoffman [mailto:paul.hoffman@icann.org]
> Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 31 mars 2020 16:48
> =C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN
> Cc=A0: doh@ietf.org; David Lawrence; Ben Schwartz; Patrick McManus;
> Murray S. Kucherawy; Barry Leiba; RFC Editor
> Objet=A0: Re: [Doh] [Ext] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8484 (6033)
>=20
> On Mar 31, 2020, at 2:03 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
> > I'm now more puzzled about the intent of the document with regards
> to redirection:
>=20
> That's fine, and you are not alone. But the proper resolution of that
> puzzlement is not an erratum, it is a document update.
>=20
> --Paul Hoffman


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From: Ben Schwartz <bemasc@google.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 20:23:09 -0400
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To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
Cc: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@icann.org>, "Murray S. Kucherawy" <superuser@gmail.com>,  "doh@ietf.org" <doh@ietf.org>, "ADD Mailing list (add@ietf.org)" <add@ietf.org>, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
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Subject: Re: [Doh] [Add] draft-btw-add-rfc8484-clarification (was RE: [Ext] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8484 (6033))
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On venue: ADD is not chartered for core protocol development work, and DoH
is shutting down, so I think the correct venue is probably DNSOP.  However,
you should also get input from HTTPBIS, where there is expertise on HTTP
semantics.

On the draft:
* The draft introduces new MUST-level requirements, so I don't think it can
reasonably be called a clarification.  Sending DNS records in a 3XX
response body, for example, is a novel construction.

* I would remove the HTTP/2 PUSH version of the proposal, which seems more
complicated without much benefit, and I would make the 3XX response body
optional.  If the response body is absent, clients SHOULD resolve the
target hostname in the same way that they resolved the original DoH server
hostname, or fail if this is not possible.

* I think RFC 8484 is pretty clear on the main point in question: HTTP
redirection applies in the usual way, whatever that might be.  Don't trust
DoH URIs from strangers.

* In practice, redirection may have been given little attention because it
doesn't necessarily give us the behavior we want.  For a GET request (where
DoH encodes the query in the URI), a redirect only applies to that specific
query.  A server that is trying to refer users to a different server would
have to redirect each DoH GET individually -- not a recipe for good
performance.  Permanent redirects for all those queries would also bloat
the client's HTTP cache.  Alt-Svc, in contrast, would allow relocating the
whole origin, which seems closer to the intended behavior.

For POST, all queries share a URI, so permanent redirects might work OK.
However, clients are permitted to convert POST to GET (dropping the body)
when encountering a 302 redirect, so only a 308 will work.  However, as
noted in RFC 7238:
   "initial use of status code 308 will be restricted to cases
   where the server has sufficient confidence in the client's
   understanding the new code"

Perhaps support for 308 is now sufficiently universal that DoH servers can
safely rely on it, but I would recommend checking with HTTPBIS.

* Despite all these concerns, I'm glad to see interest in improving DoH,
and I agree that a way to offer an updated DoH URI template would be nice.
If we can't find an elegant solution using redirects, we can find another
way, e.g. an HTTP response header containing the new template.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 4:22 AM <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:

> Hi Paul, Barry, all,
>
> (+add wg as I guess the draft should be discussed there)
>
> We prepared a document to clarify the redirection issue:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-btw-add-rfc8484-clarification/
>
> The document specifies also how redirection can be done in DoH.
>
> Cheers,
> Med
>
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : Paul Hoffman [mailto:paul.hoffman@icann.org]
> > Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 31 mars 2020 16:48
> > =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN
> > Cc : doh@ietf.org; David Lawrence; Ben Schwartz; Patrick McManus;
> > Murray S. Kucherawy; Barry Leiba; RFC Editor
> > Objet : Re: [Doh] [Ext] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8484 (6033)
> >
> > On Mar 31, 2020, at 2:03 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
> > > I'm now more puzzled about the intent of the document with regards
> > to redirection:
> >
> > That's fine, and you are not alone. But the proper resolution of that
> > puzzlement is not an erratum, it is a document update.
> >
> > --Paul Hoffman
>
> --
> Add mailing list
> Add@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/add
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On venue: ADD is not chartered for core protocol developme=
nt work, and DoH is shutting down, so I think the correct venue is probably=
 DNSOP.=C2=A0 However, you should also get input from HTTPBIS, where there =
is expertise on HTTP semantics.<div><br></div><div>On the draft:</div><div>=
* The draft introduces new MUST-level requirements, so I don&#39;t think it=
 can reasonably be called a clarification.=C2=A0 Sending DNS records in a 3=
XX response body, for example, is a novel construction.</div><div><br></div=
><div>* I would remove the HTTP/2 PUSH version of the proposal, which seems=
 more complicated without much benefit, and I would make the 3XX response b=
ody optional.=C2=A0 If the response body is absent, clients SHOULD resolve =
the target hostname in the same way that they resolved the original DoH ser=
ver hostname, or fail if this is not possible.</div><div></div><div><br></d=
iv><div>* I think RFC 8484 is pretty clear on the main point in question: H=
TTP redirection applies in the usual way,=C2=A0whatever that might be.=C2=
=A0 Don&#39;t trust DoH URIs from strangers.</div><div><br></div><div>* In =
practice, redirection may have been given little attention because it doesn=
&#39;t necessarily give us the behavior we want.=C2=A0 For a GET request (w=
here DoH encodes the query in the URI), a redirect only applies to that spe=
cific query.=C2=A0 A server that is trying to refer users to a different se=
rver would have to redirect each DoH GET individually -- not a recipe for g=
ood performance.=C2=A0 Permanent redirects for all those queries would also=
 bloat the client&#39;s HTTP cache.=C2=A0 Alt-Svc, in contrast, would allow=
=C2=A0relocating the whole origin, which seems closer to the intended behav=
ior.</div><div><br></div><div>For POST, all queries share a URI, so permane=
nt redirects might work OK.=C2=A0 However, clients are permitted to convert=
 POST to GET (dropping the body) when encountering a 302 redirect, so only =
a 308 will work.=C2=A0 However, as noted in RFC 7238:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&quot;initial use of status code 308 will be restricted to cases</div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0where the server has sufficient confidence in the client&#39;s=
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0understanding the new code&quot;<div><br></div><div>Perhap=
s support for 308 is now sufficiently universal that DoH servers can safely=
 rely on it, but I would recommend checking with HTTPBIS.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>* Despite all these concerns, I&#39;m glad to see interest in impro=
ving DoH, and I agree that a way to offer an updated DoH URI template would=
 be nice.=C2=A0 If we can&#39;t find an elegant solution using redirects, w=
e can find another way, e.g. an HTTP response header containing the new tem=
plate.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"=
gmail_attr">On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 4:22 AM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.b=
oucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Paul, Barry, all,<br>
<br>
(+add wg as I guess the draft should be discussed there)<br>
<br>
We prepared a document to clarify the redirection issue: <a href=3D"https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-btw-add-rfc8484-clarification/" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-btw-add-rf=
c8484-clarification/</a> <br>
<br>
The document specifies also how redirection can be done in DoH. <br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Med<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Message d&#39;origine-----<br>
&gt; De=C2=A0: Paul Hoffman [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:paul.hoffman@icann.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">paul.hoffman@icann.org</a>]<br>
&gt; Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0: mardi 31 mars 2020 16:48<br>
&gt; =C3=80=C2=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN<br>
&gt; Cc=C2=A0: <a href=3D"mailto:doh@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">doh@ietf.o=
rg</a>; David Lawrence; Ben Schwartz; Patrick McManus;<br>
&gt; Murray S. Kucherawy; Barry Leiba; RFC Editor<br>
&gt; Objet=C2=A0: Re: [Doh] [Ext] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8484 (6033=
)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Mar 31, 2020, at 2:03 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orang=
e.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a> wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; I&#39;m now more puzzled about the intent of the document with re=
gards<br>
&gt; to redirection:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; That&#39;s fine, and you are not alone. But the proper resolution of t=
hat<br>
&gt; puzzlement is not an erratum, it is a document update.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; --Paul Hoffman<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Add mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Add@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Add@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/add" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/add</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Patrick McManus <mcmanus@ducksong.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 14:26:21 -0400
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To: Ben Schwartz <bemasc@google.com>
Cc: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@icann.org>,  "doh@ietf.org" <doh@ietf.org>, David Lawrence <tale@dd.org>, Patrick McManus <mcmanus@ducksong.com>,  "Murray S. Kucherawy" <superuser@gmail.com>, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>,  RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
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Subject: Re: [Doh] [Ext] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8484 (6033)
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--00000000000079df7c05a36c9226
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as the author of that passage I can say that ben's right. Redirects are
fine - that's not discovery and the passage is talking about discovery of
the URI derived from the URI template (i.e. service selection). A redirect
is just a mechanical evaluation of that URI via pointer - its not discovery
of the service.

as with most things it can be made more clear - but its not errata.

--00000000000079df7c05a36c9226
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<div dir=3D"ltr">as the author of that passage I can say that ben&#39;s rig=
ht. Redirects are fine - that&#39;s not discovery and the passage is talkin=
g about discovery of the URI derived=C2=A0from the URI template (i.e. servi=
ce selection). A redirect is just a mechanical evaluation of that URI via p=
ointer - its not discovery of the service.<div><br></div><div>as with most =
things it can be made more clear - but its not errata.</div><div><br></div>=
<div><br></div></div>

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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Ben Schwartz <bemasc@google.com>
CC: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@icann.org>, "Murray S. Kucherawy" <superuser@gmail.com>, "doh@ietf.org" <doh@ietf.org>, "ADD Mailing list (add@ietf.org)" <add@ietf.org>, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
Thread-Topic: [Add] draft-btw-add-rfc8484-clarification (was RE: [Doh] [Ext] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8484 (6033))
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:17:50 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Doh] [Add] draft-btw-add-rfc8484-clarification (was RE: [Ext] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8484 (6033))
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