From nobody Mon Mar 7 12:59:17 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfc.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfc.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD80B1CDA80 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2016 12:59:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfc.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.41]) by localhost (ietfc.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2AFQkmC9TmBs for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2016 12:59:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from shetland.sei.cmu.edu (shetland.sei.cmu.edu [192.58.107.44]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67D5E1CD9E4 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2016 12:59:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from pawpaw.sei.cmu.edu (pawpaw.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.21.22]) by shetland.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1408) with ESMTP id u27Kx8gr001063; Mon, 7 Mar 2016 15:59:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cert.org; s=jthatj15xw2j; t=1457384348; bh=qETYW9LMHZvv2b0qXI5Mnj1gQGO6biKqF1QZEYPk/h4=; h=From:To:CC:Subject:Date:Message-ID:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version:Sender: Reply-To; b=PrPTsaa6II6PWZ6+QG83r89fyAz1IQi9uadXIIpM1F784s2tOc1gccUBwip1AOEPv SeEdXkZwjRIHeWO1KpTO1csS2Th9haqYKwST1l2kPAHrRz5MACGoSpnm/lGckGXXAB 2Zlh0PIUNUAT1UUzroPBsLVprElKaWklIoeknKXc= Received: from CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu (cassina.ad.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.28.249]) by pawpaw.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id u27Kx74C030913; Mon, 7 Mar 2016 15:59:07 -0500 Received: from MARATHON.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.250]) by CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.249]) with mapi id 14.03.0266.001; Mon, 7 Mar 2016 15:59:07 -0500 From: "Roman D. Danyliw" To: =?utf-8?B?8J+Uk0RhbiBXaW5n?= , Robert Moskowitz Thread-Topic: [Dots] Why GRE - Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-moskowitz-dots-gre-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRYEAQypG5v+SWpU6r9r+N0Wb6a58jP/4AgCszyDCAAAApoA== Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 20:59:06 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E0000@marathon> References: <56B1FC13.8060305@htt-consult.com> <56B4CF79.8010505@mti-systems.com> <56B4E4B9.8030307@htt-consult.com> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96DF9E8@marathon> In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96DF9E8@marathon> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "dots@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Dots] Why GRE - Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-moskowitz-dots-gre-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 20:59:16 -0000 SGVsbG8hDQoNCkNvbW1lbnRzIGlubGluZSAuLi4NCg0KPiBGcm9tOiBEb3RzIFttYWlsdG86ZG90 cy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgPz9EYW4gV2luZw0KPiBTZW50OiBNb25k YXksIEZlYnJ1YXJ5IDA4LCAyMDE2IDg6MDggUE0NCj4gVG86IFJvYmVydCBNb3Nrb3dpdHogPHJn bS1zZWNAaHR0LWNvbnN1bHQuY29tPg0KPiBDYzogR2lsYmVydCBDbGFyayA8Z2NsYXJrQG10aS1z eXN0ZW1zLmNvbT47IGRvdHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtEb3RzXSBXaHkgR1JF IC0gUmU6IEZ3ZDogTmV3IFZlcnNpb24gTm90aWZpY2F0aW9uIGZvciBkcmFmdC0NCj4gbW9za293 aXR6LWRvdHMtZ3JlLTAwLnR4dA0KPiANCj4gQ2FuIHdlIGJhY2sgdXAgdG8gcHJvdG9jb2wgcmVx dWlyZW1lbnRzPyDCoEkgZXhwZWN0IGxvdHMgb2YgcHJvdG9jb2xzIGNhbg0KPiBhbHJlYWR5IG1l ZXQgbW9zdCByZXF1aXJlbWVudHMsIGJ1dCB3aXRob3V0IGFncmVlbWVudCBvbiB0aGUgcHJvdG9j b2wNCj4gcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzLCB3ZSB3aWxsIGtlZXAgdGFsa2luZyBwYXN0IGVhY2ggb3RoZXIg d2l0aCBzb2x1dGlvbnMuDQoNCisxLiAgU2lkZS1zdGVwcGluZyB0aGUgc3BlY2lmaWMgbWVyaXRz IG9mIHVzaW5nIEdSRSwgdGhlIGNhc2UgdG8gdXNlIGl0IGZvciBET1RTIGluIHRoaXMgZHJhZnQg YXQgdGltZXMgcmVsaWVzIG9uIGFkZGl0aW9uYWwgcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzL2NvbnN0cmFpbnRzIG5v dCB5ZXQgYXJ0aWN1bGF0ZWQgaW4gdGhlIHJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyBkcmFmdCAoZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1k b3RzLXJlcXVpcmVtZW50cy0wMCkuICBXZSBzaG91bGQgdGVhc2UgdGhvc2UgcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRz IG91dCBhcyB0aGV5IGFyZSBwb3RlbnRpYWxseSBhcHBsaWNhYmxlIHRvIGFsbCBzb2x1dGlvbnMg ZHJhZnRzLg0KDQooSGF0IG9mZiAuLi4pDQpJTU8sIHdlIHNob3VsZCBleHBsb3JlIHRoZW0gYnkg aWRlbnRpZnlpbmcgaW5zdGFuY2VzIG9mIHRoZXNlIHJlcXVpcmVtZW50cy9jb25zdHJhaW50cyAo d2hhdCdzIGEgbmV3IHJlcXVpcmVtZW50IHZzLiBhIHNvbHV0aW9uIHRoYXQgY29tZXMgd2l0aCBH UkU/KSwgZGlzY3Vzc2luZyB0aGVtIGluZGl2aWR1YWxseSAoaXMgdGhpcyBhIHJlcXVpcmVtZW50 IHJlbGF0aXZlIHRvIHRoZSB1c2UgY2FzZXM/IGRvIHdlIG5lZWQgbmV3IHVzZSBjYXNlcz8pIGFu ZCBjb25zaWRlcmluZyBob3cgdG8gdXNlIHRoZW0gYXMgY3JpdGVyaWEgKGFkZCB0aGVtIHRvIHRo ZSByZXF1aXJlbWVudHMgZG9jdW1lbnQ/IEFwcGx5IE1VU1QsIFNIT1VMRCwgZXRjLikgdG8gZXZh bHVhdGUgYWxsIG90aGVyIGNhbmRpZGF0ZSBwcm90b2NvbCBkcmFmdHMuICANCg0KRnJvbSB0aGUg ZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvZiB0aGlzIGRyYWZ0IG9uIHRoZSBsaXN0IHRvIGRhdGUsIEkgYmVsaWV2ZSB0 aGF0IGF0IGxlYXN0IHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmcgaWRlYXMgbmVlZCBmdXJ0aGVyIGRpc2N1c3Npb24g b3IgY29uc2lkZXJhdGlvbiBmb3IgaW5jbHVzaW9uIGluIHRoZSByZXF1aXJlbWVudHMgZHJhZnQ6 DQoNCioqIFN0YXRlbGVzcyBzZWN1cml0eSAoc2VjdGlvbiAzLjMuMSkNCioqIFJlZHVjaW5nIGZh dGUgc2hhcmluZyAoc2VjdGlvbiAzLjMuMikNCioqIFVEUCBpcyBjb21tb25seSBibG9ja2VkIHNv IERPVFMgc2hvdWxkIGVuZ2luZWVyIGFyb3VuZCBpdCAoc2VjdGlvbiA0LCBidWxsZXQgMikgdnMu IE9QLTAwMSBpbiB0aGUgcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzIGRyYWZ0cw0KKiogUmVxdWlyZWQgY29tbXVuaWNh dGlvbnMgcGF0dGVybnMsIGUuZy4sIHBlZXItdG8tcGVlciAoc2VjdGlvbiA0LCBidWxsZXQgNSkN CioqIE5hbWUgKGFuZCBvdGhlcj8pIHJlc29sdXRpb24gKGFuZCBvdGhlciBiaW5kaW5ncz8pIG5l ZWQgdG8gYmUgbmVnb3RpYXRlZCBpbiBhZHZhbmNlIChTZWN0aW9uIDYuMSkgLS0gbWVudGlvbmVk IGluIElFVEYgOTQgbWVldGluZyBub3Rlcw0KKiogVHJhdmVyc2luZyBOQVRzDQoqKiBOZWVkIHRv IGJlIGRlcGxveWFibGUgb24gc3dpdGNoZXMgYW5kIG90aGVyIG5vbi1kZWRpY2F0ZWQgbWl0aWdh dGlvbiBkZXZpY2VzLg0KDQpJJ2QgYWxzbyBzdWdnZXN0IGFkZHJlc3NpbmcgYSBmZXcgbml0cyBp biB0aGlzIC0wMCBkcmFmdCBldmVudHVhbGx5Og0KDQoqKiBVc2luZyB0aGUgdGVybWlub2xvZ3kg ZGVmaW5lZCBpbiB0aGUgcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzIGRyYWZ0LiAgRm9yIGV4YW1wbGUsIGluc3RlYWQg b2YgIkRPVFMgbWVzc2FnaW5nIiAoc2VjdGlvbiAzLjEpIGFuZCAiRE9UIGNvbW11bmljYXRpb24i IChzZWN0aW9uIDQpIHVzZSAiRE9UUyBzaWduYWwiLiAgSXQgd2lsbCBhbHNvIG1ha2UgaXQgY2xl YXIgd2hpY2ggZWxlbWVudHMgb2YgRE9UUyBHUkUgaXMgdGFja2xpbmcuDQoNCioqIEhhcm1vbml6 aW5nIHRoZSBzZWN1cml0eSBjb25zaWRlcmF0aW9ucyB3aXRoIHRoZSB1c2UgY2FzZS9yZXF1aXJl bWVudHMgZHJhZnRzLiAgVGhpcyBkcmFmdCBub3RlcyB0aGF0IGJsb2NraW5nIERPVFMgdHJhZmZp Yzsgb3IgZGlzYWJsaW5nIERPVFMgc2VydmVycyBvciBjbGllbnRzIGFyZSB0aGUga2V5IGNvbmNl cm5zLiAgSW4gdGhlIHJlcXVpcmVtZW50cy91c2UgY2FzZSBkcmFmdHMsIHRoZSB0aHJlYXQgbW9k ZWwgaXMgYWdlbnQgaW1wZXJzb25hdGlvbiwgdHJhZmZpYyBpbmplY3Rpb24gYW5kIHNpZ25hbCBi bG9ja2luZy4NCg0KUm9tYW4NCg0K From nobody Mon Mar 7 15:42:26 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfc.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfc.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88A2C1CDE53 for ; 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[202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g74sm77765pfj.1.2016.03.07.15.42.21 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 07 Mar 2016 15:42:22 -0800 (PST) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: "dots@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 06:42:18 +0700 Message-ID: <21C92BBC-7470-48A9-8071-FF81ED947159@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E0000@marathon> References: <56B1FC13.8060305@htt-consult.com> <56B4CF79.8010505@mti-systems.com> <56B4E4B9.8030307@htt-consult.com> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96DF9E8@marathon> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E0000@marathon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5226) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Why GRE - Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-moskowitz-dots-gre-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 23:42:25 -0000 On 8 Mar 2016, at 3:59, Roman D. Danyliw wrote: > ** UDP is commonly blocked so DOTS should engineer around it (section > 4, bullet 2) It is non-infrequently filtered in endpoint networks - all this means is that we need an alternative for situations in which a stateless transport won't work. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Tue Mar 8 07:34:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BCB412D768 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 07:34:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rwBGlw6p56Tj for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 07:34:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from shetland.sei.cmu.edu (shetland.sei.cmu.edu [192.58.107.44]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B378A12D7A7 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 07:33:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pawpaw.sei.cmu.edu (pawpaw.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.21.22]) by shetland.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1408) with ESMTP id u28FXPWc018980; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 10:33:25 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cert.org; s=jthatj15xw2j; t=1457451205; bh=UbklTjM1ttFX5aIdsUucDsNZZL09NRERwsHE6PALLnM=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: In-Reply-To:References; b=kBBGrkWoyLgZ0VjNVK0bilwBkyKFs/sgg893dSrBRm1V/ki2uQXPuDf2vXFqCWBqV ooc++eYw/E+F8pa/+pwJADMS2nEirS3UUBiI0LCat09c/D1HRmUn3Eq3ZZJlf3LWJb pWOO9G0YK6ufI9zly/I1J7dLeYIWTrPSdZy1Osac= Received: from CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu (cassina.ad.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.28.249]) by pawpaw.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id u28FXO2q030217; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 10:33:24 -0500 Received: from MARATHON.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.250]) by CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.249]) with mapi id 14.03.0266.001; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 10:33:24 -0500 From: "Roman D. Danyliw" To: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] FW: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-transport-02.txt Thread-Index: AdF5T9I/2MrP6C2fSCOWg4lJ/PLIxA== Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 15:33:23 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E0D0C@marathon> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] FW: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-transport-02.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 15:34:06 -0000 Hi Tiru! (Chair hat off ...) Thanks for the updated draft. I'm reply to the -02 thread as you addressed= my feedback from -01. A few comments: ** Page 2 - 3, Section 1. Editorial. I like the three bullets from [REPOR= T] because they make the problem concrete. I worry that in a few years thos= e specific numbers (e.g., 100 Gbps) will appear dated. While helpful, I do= n't think they are needed. ** Page 3, Section 1, Paragraph 3, "The proposed mechanism ...". The text = only discusses coordination "within the same network". The DOTS use cases = are broader than that to include coordination between different networks. ** Page 4, Section 3. The second paragraph describes how the client talks = to the relay that talks to the server that does the mitigation. IMO, this = text needs to be caveated that this is just one of many possible arrangemen= ts. The requirements terminology tells us that clients can talk to servers= directly; and that not all servers are mitigators. Furthermore, in the de= scription of the "DOTS client periodically queries the server ... check[s] = the counter ...", is not found in the use case document. For example, in S= ection 4.1.1 of the use-case document, step (f), it is the server that "reg= ularly transmit[s] DOTS mitigation status messages". Likewise, there is no= reference to the counters. ** Page 5. Section 4. Editorial. I have no issue with the discussion of = RFC6555. However, in terms of the flow of the text, I felt prematurely tos= sed into the conversation about IPv4 DTLS vs. IPv6 when I first read this s= ection. I didn't read that we're talking about DOTS signaling until page 6= . I would recommend providing more intro on the order of "DOTS signaling c= an happen with DTLS and TLS ..." ** Page 6, Bullet 5, "... client may want to probe the server to ensure it = has maintained cryptographic state." Is that a requirement that should be = in the requirements draft? I also didn't read about this probe in Section = 5 or 6. ** Page 7, Section 5.1. This introductory section would benefit for furthe= r description of what it means to request mitigate service. The sub-sectio= n headers "{Convey, recall, retrieve} DOTS signal" confused me with their g= eneric names. In contrast, the filtering behavior described under 5.2.1 us= ed more specific names "{Install, Remove, Retrieve} filtering rules". ** Page 8, Section 5.1.1, How does the DOTS server decline a mitigation req= uest? With which response code? ** Page 8, Section 5.1.1, What does a 200 response code mean? Beyond "succ= ess", is it that the DOTS server has accepted the mitigation request and wi= ll try to mitigate the activity? I'd clarify the language here. ** Page 8, Section 5.1. With the caveat that this draft didn't explicitly = state that it's mapping against draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-00, in cross walk= ing the two drafts, I don't see certain protocol elements described by the = use cases. Specifically:=20 -- Use Case Section 4.1.1, step (f): "... DOTS servers regularly transmit D= OTS mitigation status updates" -- Use Case Section 4.1.1, step (g): "... mitigators [DOTS clients] may opt= ionally ... transmit DOTS mitigation efficacy updates to ... server" -- Use Case Section 4.1.1, step (i): "... DOTS server transmit a DOTS mitig= ation status update to the ... mitigators [DOTS clients] to indicate that t= he DDOS attack has ceased" Furthermore, the current use cases suggest that the DOTS server initiates o= r sends status back to the client under various circumstances. As I read t= his draft, the communication appears to be client initiated. Draft-moskowi= tz-dots-gre-00 also stated the needed for peer-to-peer communication. In fairness, none of this use-case behavior is currently in the requirement= s draft against which you are mapping. ** Page 10, Section 5.2, I don't understand the title of this section, "RES= T"? ** Page 10, Section 5.2, Is the overview of the DOTS relay behavior describ= ed in this section also applicable to "Mitigation Service requests" too? I= f so, I'd recommend generalizing some of this text and putting it earlier o= r later in the draft. ** Page 10, Section 5.2. Editorial. This section notes that content is in = JSON. However, JSON examples have already been used to explain the protoco= l since Section 5.1. Perhaps move the introduction to the format of the HT= TP body earlier. ** Page 12, Section 5.2.1.1, "The relative order of two rules is determined= by comparing their respective policy identifiers ... The rule with [a] low= er numeric policy identifier values has higher precedent." This guidance m= akes sense relative to this section. However, recall earlier in Section 5.= 1.1, "policy-id ... [is] used as an opaque identifier by the server". If t= he magnitude of policy-id is now being checked, the identifier isn't opaque= . While we're dealing with different message types, I'd recommend against = defining an identically named field differently. Regards, Roman > -----Original Message----- > From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tirumaleswar > Reddy (tireddy) > Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2016 11:17 PM > To: dots@ietf.org > Subject: [Dots] FW: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-transpo= rt- > 02.txt >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > This update to the draft includes the following changes. >=20 > * Proposes HappyEyeballs mechanism to convey DOTS signal > * Addresses comments from the WG. > * (D)TLS protocol profile to reduce delay to convey DOTS signal >=20 > Comments and suggestions are welcome. >=20 > -Tiru >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] > Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 9:28 AM > To: Prashanth Patil (praspati); Dan Wing (dwing); Mike Geller (mgeller); > Robert Moskowitz; Mohamed Boucadair; Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-transport-02.txt >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-dots-transport-02.txt has been successf= ully > submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-reddy-dots-transport > Revision: 02 > Title: Co-operative DDoS Mitigation > Document date: 2016-02-09 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 17 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-dots-tra= nsport- > 02.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-dots-transpo= rt/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-transport-02 > Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-reddy-dots-tran= sport-02 >=20 > Abstract: > This document discusses mechanisms that a DOTS client can use, when > it detects a potential Distributed Denial-of-Service (DDoS) attack, > to signal that the DOTS client is under an attack or request an > upstream DOTS server to perform inbound filtering in its ingress > routers for traffic that the DOTS client wishes to drop. The DOTS > server can then undertake appropriate actions (including, blackhole, > drop, rate-limit, or add to watch list) on the suspect traffic to the > DOTS client, thus reducing the effectiveness of the attack. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Tue Mar 8 14:15:16 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F0612DB7A for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 14:15:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.289 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.289 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vrg4P-2HDMb0 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 14:15:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from plainfield.sei.cmu.edu (plainfield.sei.cmu.edu [192.58.107.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DEF212DB75 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 14:15:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from timber.sei.cmu.edu (timber.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.21.23]) by plainfield.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1408) with ESMTP id u28MFBFM018748; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:15:11 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cert.org; s=jthatj15xw2j; t=1457475311; bh=B0kej64s0KFmGmU483X3UYveI1IYH8BPbSwHqROmTWQ=; h=From:To:CC:Subject:Date:Message-ID:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Type:MIME-Version:Sender:Reply-To; b=McIBHHJz3Axycr0tn7pmPA1Sc57FXEKRESjgSPb0a3J+BbV/dRiLWewpYe6JJAvES Mht4xQzrjAh9DT+sHkK2mMDULT6I3KbWcnM+KzHyJd/7oh5N1cCvz7PUm2VlguoAW/ CcQtAw1pZpHG8M3y/2LdDDXXPQPusGHqkemtmBlE= Received: from CASCADE.ad.sei.cmu.edu (cascade.ad.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.28.248]) by timber.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id u28MF1Vq007540; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:15:02 -0500 Received: from MARATHON.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.250]) by CASCADE.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.248]) with mapi id 14.03.0266.001; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:15:08 -0500 From: "Roman D. Danyliw" To: kaname nishizuka Thread-Topic: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRayO+PP0prh6040anad+gNJ2tfp9QErEg Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 22:15:07 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1534@marathon> References: <20160219143213.18440.22155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56C729D0.2080707@nttv6.jp> In-Reply-To: <56C729D0.2080707@nttv6.jp> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1534marathon_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "dots@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 22:15:15 -0000 --_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1534marathon_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGVsbG8gS2FuYW1lIQ0KDQooQ2hhaXIgaGF0IG9mZiAuLi4pDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIHlvdXIgZHJh ZnQuICBBIGZldyBjbGFyaWZ5aW5nIGNvbW1lbnRzOg0KDQoqKiBBcmUgU2VjdGlvbnMgMy4xIChE aXN0cmlidXRlZCBBcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUpIGFuZCAzLjIgKENlbnRyYWxpemVkIEFyY2hpdGVjdHVy ZSkgcHJlc2VudGluZyBuZXcgdXNlIGNhc2VzIG5vdCBjdXJyZW50bHkgY2FwdHVyZWQgaW4gZHJh ZnQtaWV0Zi1kb3RzLXVzZS1jYXNlcy0wMD8NCg0KKiogSXMgdGhlIHByb3RvY29sIGRlc2NyaWJl ZCBpbiBTZWN0aW9uIDQgaW50ZW5kZWQgdG8gYmUgYSBzb2x1dGlvbiBmb3IganVzdCB0aGUgYXJj aGl0ZWN0dXJlIGRlc2NyaWJlZCBpbiBTZWN0aW9uIDMsIG9yIGdlbmVyYWxseSBhcHBsaWNhYmxl IHRvIGFsbCBET1RTIHVzZSBjYXNlcy9yZXF1aXJlbWVudHM/DQoNCioqIFBhZ2UgMyDigJMgNSwg U2VjdGlvbiAyLCAgSW4gbGF5aW5nIG91dCB0aGVzZSBwcm9ibGVtcywgd2hhdCBuZXcgcmVxdWly 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"Roman D. Danyliw" Thread-Topic: Re [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRayJfDFN3pXvQy060kb1KX3e3mJ8y6xwAgBzIdICAAOKDcA== Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 06:08:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160219143213.18440.22155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56C729D0.2080707@nttv6.jp> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1534@marathon> In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1534@marathon> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.43.91] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F12AEF923ESZXEMA502MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020206.56DFBDCA.0013, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.185, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 9549935d4be6c82a549093e81b6e4d79 Archived-At: Cc: "dots@ietf.org" , kaname nishizuka Subject: [Dots] Re Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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[202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f8sm9564325pfj.49.2016.03.08.23.04.52 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 08 Mar 2016 23:04:53 -0800 (PST) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: "dots@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 14:04:50 +0700 Message-ID: <4F40EBBE-F985-4567-AFC6-7373EF46C684@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20160219143213.18440.22155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56C729D0.2080707@nttv6.jp> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1534@marathon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5226) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Re Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 07:05:20 -0000 On 9 Mar 2016, at 13:08, Xialiang (Frank) wrote: > I’m asking because DOTS is chartered to be inter-domain. > [Frank]: maybe and not sure right now. It needs more consideration and > discussion. DOTS is intended to function both inter- and intra-domain. All the requirements for inter-domain operation mesh with the requirements for intra-domain operation, and vice versa. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Tue Mar 8 23:48:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 001E612DF32 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 23:48:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pYQpEAgIuPHI for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 23:48:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F05D12DF2F for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 23:48:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CFQ11505; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 07:48:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SZXEMA411-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.70) by lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 07:48:45 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA502-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.185]) by szxema411-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 15:48:40 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank)" To: Roland Dobbins Thread-Topic: [Dots] Re Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRedIR7iGU41OjDki+dRFSxw5bGZ9Qu6cA Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 07:48:39 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160219143213.18440.22155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56C729D0.2080707@nttv6.jp> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1534@marathon> <4F40EBBE-F985-4567-AFC6-7373EF46C684@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <4F40EBBE-F985-4567-AFC6-7373EF46C684@arbor.net> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.43.91] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020204.56DFD55E.007D, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.185, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: abad5b0e26a80c474e8836643303adf9 Archived-At: Cc: "dots@ietf.org" Subject: [Dots] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgUmUgRndkOiBOZXcgVmVyc2lvbiBOb3RpZmlj?= =?utf-8?q?ation_for_draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 07:48:51 -0000 Um9sYW5kLCBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIHlvdXIgcG9pbnQgaW4gZ2VuZXJhbC4gQnV0IG5vdCBzdXJlIGlm IGludGVyLWRvbWFpbiBhbmQgaW50cmEtZG9tYWluIGhhdmUgdGhlIHRvdGFsbHkgc2FtZSByZXF1 aXJlbWVudHMgcmlnaHQgbm93Lg0KDQotLS0tLemCruS7tuWOn+S7ti0tLS0tDQrlj5Hku7bkuro6 IERvdHMgW21haWx0bzpkb3RzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIOS7o+ihqCBSb2xhbmQgRG9iYmlu cw0K5Y+R6YCB5pe26Ze0OiAyMDE25bm0M+aciDnml6UgMTU6MDUNCuaUtuS7tuS6ujogZG90c0Bp ZXRmLm9yZw0K5Li76aKYOiBSZTogW0RvdHNdIFJlIEZ3ZDogTmV3IFZlcnNpb24gTm90aWZpY2F0 aW9uIGZvciBkcmFmdC1uaXNoaXp1a2EtZG90cy1pbnRlci1kb21haW4tbWVjaGFuaXNtLTAwLnR4 dA0KDQpPbiA5IE1hciAyMDE2LCBhdCAxMzowOCwgWGlhbGlhbmcgKEZyYW5rKSB3cm90ZToNCg0K PiBJ4oCZbSBhc2tpbmcgYmVjYXVzZSBET1RTIGlzIGNoYXJ0ZXJlZCB0byBiZSBpbnRlci1kb21h aW4uDQo+IFtGcmFua106IG1heWJlIGFuZCBub3Qgc3VyZSByaWdodCBub3cuIEl0IG5lZWRzIG1v cmUgY29uc2lkZXJhdGlvbiBhbmQgDQo+IGRpc2N1c3Npb24uDQoNCkRPVFMgaXMgaW50ZW5kZWQg dG8gZnVuY3Rpb24gYm90aCBpbnRlci0gYW5kIGludHJhLWRvbWFpbi4gIEFsbCB0aGUgcmVxdWly ZW1lbnRzIGZvciBpbnRlci1kb21haW4gb3BlcmF0aW9uIG1lc2ggd2l0aCB0aGUgcmVxdWlyZW1l bnRzIGZvciBpbnRyYS1kb21haW4gb3BlcmF0aW9uLCBhbmQgdmljZSB2ZXJzYS4NCg0KLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NClJvbGFuZCBEb2JiaW5zIDxyZG9iYmluc0Bh cmJvci5uZXQ+DQoNCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fDQpEb3RzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KRG90c0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5v cmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9kb3RzDQo= From nobody Wed Mar 9 00:10:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDACB12DF3B for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 00:10:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5TeDwzqiyF1Z for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 00:10:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x22f.google.com (mail-pf0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56F9512D8EE for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 00:02:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id u190so4722189pfb.3 for ; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 00:02:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=GURyVTttAAtt6sIrWzDRXVV7Tx3XPCf01ftTZiG1qzQ=; b=bHNboOND/21zLu2gHQzqR6J8Coavjbi+4AbGFa7iKRwj/n7zVDYFmr1XVyIun4dC2J TCrgVbAfIwYhnm0/A6BEcOBvLZfahCuMwbZqQsOnjCKlvWwrDnfr/r9DNE2oRu7jbGXj T7I/jK75vkFBkfGU61DUBCwjR9sX9O1IilwHM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=GURyVTttAAtt6sIrWzDRXVV7Tx3XPCf01ftTZiG1qzQ=; b=FdH5VB/fiwn/UHgQXIxm3OaQimiC2BRbmR0TMqW+bKsuCVoWy5XAkvk58V1zm7/e4D aawKgCV3gmW29xNwivROkeQvr8FilXaR7Gasahu3G5zdLaqk29VyGd4R4gGNQbFv1XNI GIOyCydJIwElWHczOyHe+30pZvLdQ2+q77pCMD2BQpGqcanP8/O0UZh/iAJrZuxU3E0h rp8jCTKau0yugxYyu/LEzFP9HgcoIPRLuWH56402LW+7oj1PwbkdTXgzqYG1ZxGURuWT MwF1rkXiW8dC1N/gR5/oIjQEA6WXzGTM4GtNweVyHOuhoxqKB0IbAGo3lfZjEitFjk0Y rVxw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJI8meexIPOjt7dS2/LWBpXE5W7ot7rAQBtFCjzhKIvzr5GUuQnG8NRsVeX7Xw2KWl1u X-Received: by 10.98.7.11 with SMTP id b11mr48582471pfd.38.1457510534954; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 00:02:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.19.254.115] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ta2sm10081977pab.42.2016.03.09.00.02.13 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 09 Mar 2016 00:02:14 -0800 (PST) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: "dots@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 15:02:10 +0700 Message-ID: <3D0E31D6-DE15-4C9B-8AC6-74A083FBFA03@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20160219143213.18440.22155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56C729D0.2080707@nttv6.jp> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1534@marathon> <4F40EBBE-F985-4567-AFC6-7373EF46C684@arbor.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5226) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Re Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 08:10:16 -0000 On 9 Mar 2016, at 14:48, Xialiang (Frank) wrote: > But not sure if inter-domain and intra-domain have the totally same > requirements right now. I am. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Wed Mar 9 06:04:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B76D712D6F4 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 06:04:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PtVMeFyU6l5U for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 06:04:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io0-x235.google.com (mail-io0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99F5712DE58 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 06:04:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io0-x235.google.com with SMTP id m184so66626232iof.1 for ; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 06:04:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=joehVe0Tv5y3TnioVp1CekWJPMq8AuOeMbJEWyOyHFI=; b=wBjOw/U4Eu+XK+6f0vkPje1A37vUai8ZJco0hhme+gjL24yqXJ0yfObINkVgHV9Y0o cqi5qXHzxJ2mDx3EDPd6fz715M8MGjNts5vu2sUpjniFgCwfzJQtP4XoxlDNSSW2xWwV kyb9cw+pQX4tuY1RzCid5Kkicf3+wnDTS1V3XhZaB/JJH+X6bJfYo70FQRzibBdhc+/l viUCEWA62E921CH2pURw8QsmFKuMmy4DfBpyJoXHyHf4zodqnlHjXnbj5TGoCfQNaGxM Xz3KFmsfdm5NRERL5geaceYVKwXham+p4jQfoQ2NNj9bOBVAE68EbF6VnuSlNzLJlwA9 PHRw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=joehVe0Tv5y3TnioVp1CekWJPMq8AuOeMbJEWyOyHFI=; b=QddhxsVBPqj0URnhBjm8uvgFnkWbCIw/pLPiNH9H2+WOUiut9eLUYfHqO/Q8GPpvNQ nGWPOuyiZID0xsA9KKH/7qEIw9dNZWCwSn/BexcYES4P9sDjkmYqjO9Z+A1IBBFanmN1 mc4v5qEgNPvH62I7hEUJvlRDMA9cCHULUo/qBwRXmA2V6T10dSPjvWz6VKs6/LCoK5YX E3O3dv94M4sTvve44PJoULR4uW20CY+C+tHpUUE1F4psH+cWpSobj04aNO2xAmnQc7zc +pqgLtxjVRxS/IVP3FJEpwH9qhFtKgSYi/OH9RPydJbXCkkMS6ZMKpK4xYKaCJ5nYA3z CABw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJI5oA61SNSLampvoTW8gK3nELMZJ6FmFYLdHsEjtP/DBJWcaXfoAeO82uHB0jjJo3cW7JD1CfuEfe4TIA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.165.17 with SMTP id o17mr1281481ioe.42.1457532261978; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 06:04:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.79.36.134 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 06:04:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <56C729D0.2080707@nttv6.jp> References: <20160219143213.18440.22155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56C729D0.2080707@nttv6.jp> Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 17:04:21 +0300 Message-ID: From: Pavel Odintsov To: kaname nishizuka Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1141fb12b97f2b052d9e2c58 Archived-At: Cc: dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 14:04:56 -0000 --001a1141fb12b97f2b052d9e2c58 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hello! You have done nice work! I really love json from developer point of view. We definitely will integrate this draft protocol as proof of concept into our DDoS mitigation solution. Do you have reference implementations or some code? On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 5:42 PM, kaname nishizuka wrote: > Hi all, > > We submitted a new draft regarding to a cooperative DDoS protection. > > Summary of the draft: > As DDoS attack evolves rapidly in the aspect of volume and > sophistication, cooperation among operators for sharing the capacity > of the protection system to cope with it becomes very necessary. > This document describes some possible solutions to the cooperative > DDoS protection problems. > The inter-domain protocol (or signaling mechanism) for the goal of > DDoS protection coordination is the main focus of this document. > > We're all happy to have discussions. Any comments and suggestions are > welcome. > > thanks in advance, > kaname > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: New Version Notification for > draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 06:32:13 -0800 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: Luyuan Fang , Kaname > Nishizuka , Jinwei Xia > , Dacheng Zhang > , Liang Xia > > > A new version of I-D, draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Kaname Nishizuka and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism > Revision: 00 > Title: Inter-domain cooperative DDoS protection problems and mechanism > Document date: 2016-02-19 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 22 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00 > > > Abstract: > As DDoS attack evolves rapidly in the aspect of volume and > sophistication, cooperation among operators for sharing the capacity > of the protection system to cope with it becomes very necessary. > This document describes some possible solutions to the cooperative > inter-domain DOTS problems. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > -- Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov --001a1141fb12b97f2b052d9e2c58 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello!

You have done nice work! I reall= y love json from developer point of view. We definitely will integrate this= draft protocol as proof of concept into our DDoS mitigation solution.

Do you have reference implementations or some code?=C2= =A0

On= Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 5:42 PM, kaname nishizuka <kaname@nttv6.jp> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
Hi all,

We submitted a new draft regarding to a cooperative DDoS protection.
Summary of the draft:
=C2=A0=C2=A0 As DDoS attack evolves rapidly in the aspect of volume and=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 sophistication, cooperation among operators for sharing th= e capacity
=C2=A0=C2=A0 of the protection system to cope with it becomes very nece= ssary.
=C2=A0=C2=A0 This document describes some possible solutions to the cooperative
=C2=A0=C2=A0 DDoS protection problems.
=C2=A0=C2=A0 The inter-domain protocol (or signaling mechanism) for the= goal of
=C2=A0=C2=A0 DDoS protection coordination is the main focus of this doc= ument.

We're all happy to have discussions. Any comments and suggestions are welcome.

thanks in advance,
kaname


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 06:32:13 -0800
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: Luyuan Fang <lufang@microsoft.com>, Kaname Nishizuka <kaname@nttv6.jp>, Jinwei Xia <= ;xiajinwei@huawei.com>, Dacheng Zhang <dacheng.zdc@aliabab-inc.com>, Liang Xia <frank.xialiang@huawei.com> 


A new version of I-D, draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanis=
m-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Kaname Nishizuka and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism
Revision:	00
Title:		Inter-domain cooperative DDoS protection problems and mechanism
Document date:	2016-02-19
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		22
URL:            https://www.ietf=
.org/internet-drafts/draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.o=
rg/doc/draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/d=
raft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00


Abstract:
   As DDoS attack evolves rapidly in the aspect of volume and
   sophistication, cooperation among operators for sharing the capacity
   of the protection system to cope with it becomes very necessary.
   This document describes some possible solutions to the cooperative
   inter-domain DOTS problems.

                                                                           =
      =20


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots




--
Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov
--001a1141fb12b97f2b052d9e2c58-- From nobody Wed Mar 9 06:21:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F07F12D6B2 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 06:21:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31IodKzveQJg for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 06:21:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from Mail2.SpriteLink.NET (Mail2.SpriteLink.NET [195.182.5.83]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C22FD12DEB3 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 06:21:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Mail2.SpriteLink.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52B68261848 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 15:21:28 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at SpriteLink.NET Received: from Mail2.SpriteLink.NET ([195.182.5.83]) by localhost (Mail2.SpriteLink.NET [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sQx5jFGBztkU for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 15:21:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195-20-206-74.serverhotell.net (unknown [195.20.206.74]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: kristian@spritelink.net) by Mail2.SpriteLink.NET (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E74A4261846 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 15:21:24 +0100 (CET) To: dots@ietf.org References: <20160219143213.18440.22155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56C729D0.2080707@nttv6.jp> From: Kristian Larsson Message-ID: <56E03164.3030702@spritelink.net> Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 15:21:24 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 14:21:44 -0000 I wonder, have we discussed using YANG to model the messages/RPCs? I'm not sure why I haven't brought this up earlier, but it sure would be nice to reuse the most popular modelling language IETF has at its disposal. And just to be clear, I'm not implying a particular transport like NETCONF or RESTCONF. Obviously we have very specific requirements in there so one might have to invent something new but I don't think this prevents using YANG to describe the message content. Kind regards, Kristian. On 09/03/16 15:04, Pavel Odintsov wrote: > Hello! > > You have done nice work! I really love json from developer point of > view. We definitely will integrate this draft protocol as proof of > concept into our DDoS mitigation solution. > > Do you have reference implementations or some code? > > On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 5:42 PM, kaname nishizuka > wrote: > > Hi all, > > We submitted a new draft regarding to a cooperative DDoS protection. > > Summary of the draft: > As DDoS attack evolves rapidly in the aspect of volume and > sophistication, cooperation among operators for sharing the capacity > of the protection system to cope with it becomes very necessary. > This document describes some possible solutions to the cooperative > DDoS protection problems. > The inter-domain protocol (or signaling mechanism) for the goal of > DDoS protection coordination is the main focus of this document. > > We're all happy to have discussions. Any comments and suggestions > are welcome. > > thanks in advance, > kaname > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: New Version Notification for > draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 06:32:13 -0800 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: Luyuan Fang > , Kaname Nishizuka > , Jinwei Xia > , Dacheng Zhang > , > Liang Xia > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Kaname Nishizuka and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism > Revision: 00 > Title: Inter-domain cooperative DDoS protection problems and mechanism > Document date: 2016-02-19 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 22 > URL:https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt > Status:https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism/ > Htmlized:https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00 > > > Abstract: > As DDoS attack evolves rapidly in the aspect of volume and > sophistication, cooperation among operators for sharing the capacity > of the protection system to cope with it becomes very necessary. > This document describes some possible solutions to the cooperative > inter-domain DOTS problems. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available attools.ietf.org . > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > > > > -- > Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov > > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > From nobody Wed Mar 9 06:45:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E976B12E08F for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 06:24:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rFc-FrerFJ2M for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 06:24:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C5CA12DFED for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 06:23:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE766621C2; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 09:23:46 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id lmbELNv18Ipv; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 09:23:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 88509621AD; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 09:23:33 -0500 (EST) To: Roland Dobbins , "dots@ietf.org" References: <56B1FC13.8060305@htt-consult.com> <56B4CF79.8010505@mti-systems.com> <56B4E4B9.8030307@htt-consult.com> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96DF9E8@marathon> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E0000@marathon> <21C92BBC-7470-48A9-8071-FF81ED947159@arbor.net> From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <56E031D8.3080900@htt-consult.com> Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 09:23:20 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <21C92BBC-7470-48A9-8071-FF81ED947159@arbor.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Why GRE - Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-moskowitz-dots-gre-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 14:24:19 -0000 On 03/07/2016 06:42 PM, Roland Dobbins wrote: > On 8 Mar 2016, at 3:59, Roman D. Danyliw wrote: > >> ** UDP is commonly blocked so DOTS should engineer around it (section >> 4, bullet 2) > > It is non-infrequently filtered in endpoint networks - all this means > is that we need an alternative for situations in which a stateless > transport won't work. Please help me here, as I am having problems with your semantics. To me: non-infrequently == frequently And I don't think that is what you mean? Also I am having problems with the second point. Do you mean specifically UDP as the stateless transport, or stateless in general whatever may exist (call it STP :) ). From nobody Wed Mar 9 07:13:22 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BC2D12DFB4 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 06:51:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Wppg2gEqAqt for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 06:51:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from plainfield.sei.cmu.edu (plainfield.sei.cmu.edu [192.58.107.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6F4A12D6D4 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 06:35:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from pawpaw.sei.cmu.edu (pawpaw.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.21.22]) by plainfield.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1408) with ESMTP id u29EZXun001799; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 09:35:33 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cert.org; s=jthatj15xw2j; t=1457534133; bh=Id3f/bf+rjgfQb96wHEXJ41VRkkRMYOT7nUM9OzzW7Y=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version:Sender: Reply-To:Cc; b=iLIk7kgUaqHeQMfn5GiqLH8FpEnqcPJxfQBxaFTwZdsgePPa8XoxXp0Amu/ZesxAp jKlG8Z1NjZ6zB8azWsEmbIXlHOdBf5gSp5sH7TZaumZEQVxyWhfGOCrotPZkl6UII8 QK4Eoq+zHky9vYA+c1kUCMXRrMmLvfThqPGtuqTI= Received: from CASCADE.ad.sei.cmu.edu (cascade.ad.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.28.248]) by pawpaw.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id u29EZNXJ019410; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 09:35:23 -0500 Received: from MARATHON.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.250]) by CASCADE.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.248]) with mapi id 14.03.0266.001; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 09:35:22 -0500 From: "Roman D. Danyliw" To: Roland Dobbins , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Re Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRecoaiEP38PIt/0KOrWcGenmb159RBC8AgAApXJA= Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 14:35:22 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1B49@marathon> References: <20160219143213.18440.22155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56C729D0.2080707@nttv6.jp> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1534@marathon> <4F40EBBE-F985-4567-AFC6-7373EF46C684@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <4F40EBBE-F985-4567-AFC6-7373EF46C684@arbor.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Re Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 14:51:47 -0000 SGVsbG8hDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogRG90cyBbbWFp bHRvOmRvdHMtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIFJvbGFuZCBEb2JiaW5zDQo+ IFNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2RheSwgTWFyY2ggMDksIDIwMTYgMjowNSBBTQ0KPiBUbzogZG90c0BpZXRm Lm9yZw0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW0RvdHNdIFJlIEZ3ZDogTmV3IFZlcnNpb24gTm90aWZpY2F0 aW9uIGZvciBkcmFmdC1uaXNoaXp1a2EtDQo+IGRvdHMtaW50ZXItZG9tYWluLW1lY2hhbmlzbS0w MC50eHQNCj4gDQo+IE9uIDkgTWFyIDIwMTYsIGF0IDEzOjA4LCBYaWFsaWFuZyAoRnJhbmspIHdy b3RlOg0KPiANCj4gPiBJ4oCZbSBhc2tpbmcgYmVjYXVzZSBET1RTIGlzIGNoYXJ0ZXJlZCB0byBi ZSBpbnRlci1kb21haW4uDQo+ID4gW0ZyYW5rXTogbWF5YmUgYW5kIG5vdCBzdXJlIHJpZ2h0IG5v dy4gSXQgbmVlZHMgbW9yZSBjb25zaWRlcmF0aW9uIGFuZA0KPiA+IGRpc2N1c3Npb24uDQo+IA0K PiBET1RTIGlzIGludGVuZGVkIHRvIGZ1bmN0aW9uIGJvdGggaW50ZXItIGFuZCBpbnRyYS1kb21h aW4uICBBbGwgdGhlDQo+IHJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyBmb3IgaW50ZXItZG9tYWluIG9wZXJhdGlvbiBt ZXNoIHdpdGggdGhlIHJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyBmb3INCj4gaW50cmEtZG9tYWluIG9wZXJhdGlvbiwg YW5kIHZpY2UgdmVyc2EuDQoNClJpZ2h0LiAgSSBtaXNzcG9rZS4gIERPVFMgaXMgYWJzb2x1dGVs eSBjaGFydGVyZWQgdG8gYmUgaW50ZXIgYW5kIGludHJhLWRvbWFpbi4NCg0KSSBtZWFudCB0byBh c2sgd2hldGhlciBkcmFmdC1uaXNoaXp1a2EtZG90cy1pbnRlci1kb21haW4tbWVjaGFuaXNtLTAw IGlzIHByb3Bvc2luZyBkaWZmZXJlbnQgcHJvdG9jb2xzIGZvciBlYWNoIGluc3RhbmNlIC0tIGlu dHJhIHZzLiBpbnRlci4NCg0KUm9tYW4NCg0K From nobody Wed Mar 9 07:13:23 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9239D12D6CB for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 06:53:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RirqqgTnMuod for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 06:53:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B33712DFD4 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 06:49:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75406621C2 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 09:49:01 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id Qucq8+k-ijYh for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 09:48:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A1D85621B4 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 09:48:53 -0500 (EST) To: "dots@ietf.org" From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <56E037D3.1050800@htt-consult.com> Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 09:48:51 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] Achieving smaller DOTS messaging through compression X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 14:53:44 -0000 XML for DOTS messages seems to be in a couple proposals. Yet XML is often dragged out as a bad player in constrained communications (look at CoAP as an example of avoiding XML). Almost 20 years ago IPCOMP (currently RFC 3173) was done for IPsec and some interesting analyses back then showed that it really helps. If DOTS secure communications mechanism is IPsec, then IPCOMP is automatically an available option for implementors. IKEv2IANA provides: http://www.iana.org/assignments/ikev2-parameters/ikev2-parameters.xhtml#ikev2-parameters-17 Value Compression Type Reference 0 Reserved [RFC7296] 1 IPCOMP_OUI [RFC7296] 2 IPCOMP_DEFLATE [RFC2394] 3 IPCOMP_LZS [RFC2395] 4 IPCOMP_LZJH [RFC3051] 5-240 Unassigned 241-255 Private use [RFC7296] I am not aware of a compression option for TLS or DTLS. If it exists, can someone point me to the information on it. Thus I am thinking about a Generic Protocol Compression document on how to effectively do compression within any security wrapper that can negotiate the inclusion of a GPCOMP option. Potentially it would only take one bit from a header to say if this envelope content is compressed using the compression algorithm negotiated for this Security Association (unlike the 4 bytes of IPCOMP). Or it could use the same format as IPCOMP... Does anyone (particularly anyone using XML) have any experience to offer? From nobody Wed Mar 9 08:06:14 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBB6212D51F for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 08:05:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qd3h-fqDrLfu for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 08:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x232.google.com (mail-pa0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A05D12D714 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 07:55:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-x232.google.com with SMTP id fl4so42694625pad.0 for ; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 07:55:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=STNn/tOJkl6eoMH1hb2wcVjPm5WdRDOWeKLfNSYUGg8=; b=D9JbRJZs65kt/jy1S+Y6s5R7Sz7KoFPVf3uSSuqZR4nrjqH9U3UIWvhJSJfBO9dv7d kXwzeQv7FLX7RaMZHVy6Ikrjaf4l1Kb1qjqzrzh+itTp6hCkmtYanXgpO6yiYr1pr2XC GVmZt4asUyO3alMZ1mATTNfREwiM2UxMDpjjc= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=STNn/tOJkl6eoMH1hb2wcVjPm5WdRDOWeKLfNSYUGg8=; b=eigAaipCUgrDGE/Tf15IEaCxHzNh6mzenpQ/cEzbIeEmnBq0Unn5PB9IVJ7ui0DNhb ovZXjXt8WqWrRSf9pGHK0O+4YwMb0hkEzcGdJ5xOT9kAZJjYFPzZ8LEQTBDMjPyox2Jf r2xjthqnOlYlNCBeVaDj8LNYWyfCyZVasLR+IkzOn7uSphunJVrwHbBbNiMlZ8HAdOrg FE3FDhLE+bSgkA3VxoIvCq+oCcJZMSDCZdJ9E6/yum59G2JiVA5VYhdNF7N1MMyx1aoI tzmmzh6S0ataY6r7f8yukGK/Jd22TSNh/er7hO724bv8YB0GGQ0LQ0Oto9kWkGoB2byt xO6g== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKE66t4zK4hts6ko48mVFbdMPKp71QjxVw6YnSLkBNQv0B8csk7NSWSTS1LZaH1veP5 X-Received: by 10.66.144.134 with SMTP id sm6mr51338257pab.158.1457538954530; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 07:55:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.19.254.115] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id tb10sm13403341pab.22.2016.03.09.07.55.52 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 09 Mar 2016 07:55:53 -0800 (PST) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: "dots@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 22:55:50 +0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <56E031D8.3080900@htt-consult.com> References: <56B1FC13.8060305@htt-consult.com> <56B4CF79.8010505@mti-systems.com> <56B4E4B9.8030307@htt-consult.com> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96DF9E8@marathon> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E0000@marathon> <21C92BBC-7470-48A9-8071-FF81ED947159@arbor.net> <56E031D8.3080900@htt-consult.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5226) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Why GRE - Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-moskowitz-dots-gre-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 16:05:16 -0000 On 9 Mar 2016, at 21:23, Robert Moskowitz wrote: > non-infrequently == frequently It was a typo, I meant not-infrequently. > And I don't think that is what you mean? That is precisely what I mean. > Also I am having problems with the second point. Do you mean > specifically UDP as the stateless transport, or stateless in general > whatever may exist (call it STP :) ). We need both a stateful and a stateless transport option, as has been discussed a great deal on-list and in DOTS WG meetings. UDP is the most viable stateless option, for many reasons. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Wed Mar 9 08:08:25 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0525612E113 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 08:07:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OQMSjjlRwNZE for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 08:07:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x22b.google.com (mail-pf0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC62E12E16F for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 07:58:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id 129so43920170pfw.1 for ; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 07:58:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=UgDN1xRKfZE5duBzkdla3MukkxhCy6lCiIAlNNZxef0=; b=mWF/jThrCxgtQ8ISekM+HwKDN7LuZNdRV+VikF/9g4fj0QEITEwdiLR2RUpqctNHJq 6M6Io7mjFZihUy5lek8RlhNIdwKHPOKNgMD+BTOrkZLlCJL3gvX1+lVo7twYZVOo/wsd tzaFEMF9EYpJfp+L5PHqTDgph0h/25YextrL0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=UgDN1xRKfZE5duBzkdla3MukkxhCy6lCiIAlNNZxef0=; b=iU7+xcymNuXP0R3xEpeNnt3J7wqpnd1cKe9ybvli7pc0zOBmpyD2cVFQTcyXe+Ds6S 3hA2NGGvE194V4YdC6v5XG1uh8zcgIWEk1x3diP6B4dDhhoQTKwOiRDWt1dHE1qD86jP /gx70b6xq+uzgX589vNqPbWADisqLw+dms99gzQbuieKLesWrTbsZswvOHT/STC4809J DekfiMJESTp/4XzCaPiaseRZZEiAWIVz3Nk0JxxtsZU3a/66ed7yy/kqm54e8X1+i5lK DjgbaVsqN1mDLx3KnmFbbH8YIwOrsfJGBrETIzP5LCq9+3cbX+rAwGeQalGaFIOrG2RY FfTg== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJ1T9TZkSRfefsu10QomgVlIDFoBJJHk5VsOLO/cD3gawpDcmNK6FClwIaLAoiJjevY X-Received: by 10.98.67.76 with SMTP id q73mr27793996pfa.137.1457539109245; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 07:58:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.19.254.115] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id wx3sm13427064pab.25.2016.03.09.07.58.27 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 09 Mar 2016 07:58:28 -0800 (PST) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: "dots@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 22:58:25 +0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1B49@marathon> References: <20160219143213.18440.22155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56C729D0.2080707@nttv6.jp> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1534@marathon> <4F40EBBE-F985-4567-AFC6-7373EF46C684@arbor.net> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1B49@marathon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5226) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Re Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 16:07:15 -0000 On 9 Mar 2016, at 21:35, Roman D. Danyliw wrote: > I meant to ask whether draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00 > is proposing different protocols for each instance -- intra vs. inter. Gotcha. There are several concerns with this draft, as noted previously. It wasn't apparent that proposing different protocols for inter- vs. intra-domain communications was one of those concerns, but perhaps I missed something? Both stateful and stateless transport options should be available for both inter- and intra-domain communications, due to local variations in network access policies, etc. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Wed Mar 9 18:26:06 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5359712DC49 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 18:26:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5TyvhPnVSEYa for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 18:26:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6EA4C12DB66 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 18:26:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CKE17087; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 02:25:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SZXEMA412-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.71) by lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 02:25:57 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA502-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.185]) by SZXEMA412-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.71]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 10:25:51 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank)" To: Roland Dobbins Thread-Topic: [Dots] Re Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRedIR7iGU41OjDki+dRFSxw5bGZ9QqBEAgAAXNYCAATSAAA== Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 02:25:51 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160219143213.18440.22155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56C729D0.2080707@nttv6.jp> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1534@marathon> <4F40EBBE-F985-4567-AFC6-7373EF46C684@arbor.net> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1B49@marathon> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.43.91] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A0B0204.56E0DB36.009A, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.185, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 3521afdf7053393b44231205639744d7 Archived-At: Cc: "dots@ietf.org" Subject: [Dots] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIFJlIEZ3ZDogTmV3IFZlcnNpb24gTm90aWZp?= =?gb2312?b?Y2F0aW9uIGZvciBkcmFmdC1uaXNoaXp1a2EtZG90cy1pbnRlci1kb21haW4t?= =?gb2312?b?bWVjaGFuaXNtLTAwLnR4dA==?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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[202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q2sm1070195pfq.88.2016.03.09.18.30.08 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 09 Mar 2016 18:30:09 -0800 (PST) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: "dots@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 09:30:06 +0700 Message-ID: <3ED6DC85-5525-4008-B4DB-57B16D595E11@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20160219143213.18440.22155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56C729D0.2080707@nttv6.jp> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1534@marathon> <4F40EBBE-F985-4567-AFC6-7373EF46C684@arbor.net> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1B49@marathon> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5226) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Re Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 02:30:17 -0000 On 10 Mar 2016, at 9:25, Xialiang (Frank) wrote: > But it needs more consideration and discussion. No, it doesn't. The requirements are identical. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Thu Mar 10 00:58:25 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B676C12D5A2 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 00:58:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j24DxK3ptrGn for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 00:58:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from guri.nttv6.jp (guri.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:a::4]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09BBF12D53C for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 00:58:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from z.nttv6.jp (z.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:6::f]) by guri.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id D38AB4E65F; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 17:58:18 +0900 (JST) Received: from SR2-nishizuka.local (fujiko.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:136::141]) by z.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id BF7133ACA8; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 17:58:18 +0900 (JST) To: Pavel Odintsov References: <20160219143213.18440.22155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56C729D0.2080707@nttv6.jp> From: kaname nishizuka Message-ID: <56E13780.8040800@nttv6.jp> Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 17:59:44 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070709070700030006090103" Archived-At: Cc: dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 08:58:23 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070709070700030006090103 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Pavel, On 2016/03/09 23:04, Pavel Odintsov wrote: > Hello! > > You have done nice work! I really love json from developer point of view. We definitely will integrate this draft protocol as proof of concept into our DDoS mitigation solution. > Thank you! > Do you have reference implementations or some code? > We'd like to implement it, though, there is no reference implementation yet. Actually, a part of content of the format is based on an implementation internally used in my service which is using xml format. best regards, kaname nishizuka > On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 5:42 PM, kaname nishizuka > wrote: > > Hi all, > > We submitted a new draft regarding to a cooperative DDoS protection. > > Summary of the draft: > As DDoS attack evolves rapidly in the aspect of volume and > sophistication, cooperation among operators for sharing the capacity > of the protection system to cope with it becomes very necessary. > This document describes some possible solutions to the cooperative > DDoS protection problems. > The inter-domain protocol (or signaling mechanism) for the goal of > DDoS protection coordination is the main focus of this document. > > We're all happy to have discussions. Any comments and suggestions are welcome. > > thanks in advance, > kaname > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 06:32:13 -0800 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: Luyuan Fang , Kaname Nishizuka , Jinwei Xia , Dacheng Zhang , Liang Xia > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Kaname Nishizuka and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism > Revision: 00 > Title: Inter-domain cooperative DDoS protection problems and mechanism > Document date: 2016-02-19 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 22 > URL:https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt > Status:https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism/ > Htmlized:https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00 > > > Abstract: > As DDoS attack evolves rapidly in the aspect of volume and > sophistication, cooperation among operators for sharing the capacity > of the protection system to cope with it becomes very necessary. > This document describes some possible solutions to the cooperative > inter-domain DOTS problems. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available attools.ietf.org . > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > > > > -- > Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov --------------070709070700030006090103 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Pavel,

On 2016/03/09 23:04, Pavel Odintsov wrote:
Hello!

You have done nice work! I really love json from developer point of view. We definitely will integrate this draft protocol as proof of concept into our DDoS mitigation solution.

Thank you!

Do you have reference implementations or some code? 

We'd like to implement it, though, there is no reference implementation yet.
Actually, a part of content of the format is based on an implementation internally used in my service which is using xml format.

best regards,
kaname nishizuka

On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 5:42 PM, kaname nishizuka <kaname@nttv6.jp> wrote:
Hi all,

We submitted a new draft regarding to a cooperative DDoS protection.

Summary of the draft:
   As DDoS attack evolves rapidly in the aspect of volume and
   sophistication, cooperation among operators for sharing the capacity
   of the protection system to cope with it becomes very necessary.
   This document describes some possible solutions to the cooperative
   DDoS protection problems.
   The inter-domain protocol (or signaling mechanism) for the goal of
   DDoS protection coordination is the main focus of this document.

We're all happy to have discussions. Any comments and suggestions are welcome.

thanks in advance,
kaname


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 06:32:13 -0800
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: Luyuan Fang <lufang@microsoft.com>, Kaname Nishizuka <kaname@nttv6.jp>, Jinwei Xia <xiajinwei@huawei.com>, Dacheng Zhang <dacheng.zdc@aliabab-inc.com>, Liang Xia <frank.xialiang@huawei.com> 


A new version of I-D, draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Kaname Nishizuka and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism
Revision:	00
Title:		Inter-domain cooperative DDoS protection problems and mechanism
Document date:	2016-02-19
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		22
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00


Abstract:
   As DDoS attack evolves rapidly in the aspect of volume and
   sophistication, cooperation among operators for sharing the capacity
   of the protection system to cope with it becomes very necessary.
   This document describes some possible solutions to the cooperative
   inter-domain DOTS problems.

                                                                                  


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots




--
Sincerely yours, Pavel Odintsov

--------------070709070700030006090103-- From nobody Thu Mar 10 12:16:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A766212D6FF for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 12:16:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9EUszBAAwmJa for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 12:16:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9EE6A12DC92 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 12:16:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D74746219C for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 15:15:59 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 33NG45OK5oyZ for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 15:15:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 203C362132 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 15:15:55 -0500 (EST) To: "dots@ietf.org" References: <56E037D3.1050800@htt-consult.com> From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <56E1D5F8.1020606@htt-consult.com> Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 15:15:52 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <56E037D3.1050800@htt-consult.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Achieving smaller DOTS messaging through compression X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 20:16:03 -0000 I have learned a few things about TLS compression. Basically it is a problem. And a problem that ESP with IPCOMP would not have. Or SSE with a GPCOMP option. But NOT an XML compress object. On 03/09/2016 09:48 AM, Robert Moskowitz wrote: > XML for DOTS messages seems to be in a couple proposals. Yet XML is > often dragged out as a bad player in constrained communications (look > at CoAP as an example of avoiding XML). > > Almost 20 years ago IPCOMP (currently RFC 3173) was done for IPsec and > some interesting analyses back then showed that it really helps. > > If DOTS secure communications mechanism is IPsec, then IPCOMP is > automatically an available option for implementors. IKEv2IANA provides: > > http://www.iana.org/assignments/ikev2-parameters/ikev2-parameters.xhtml#ikev2-parameters-17 > > > Value Compression Type Reference > 0 Reserved [RFC7296] > 1 IPCOMP_OUI [RFC7296] > 2 IPCOMP_DEFLATE [RFC2394] > 3 IPCOMP_LZS [RFC2395] > 4 IPCOMP_LZJH [RFC3051] > 5-240 Unassigned > 241-255 Private use [RFC7296] > > I am not aware of a compression option for TLS or DTLS. If it exists, > can someone point me to the information on it. > > Thus I am thinking about a Generic Protocol Compression document on > how to effectively do compression within any security wrapper that can > negotiate the inclusion of a GPCOMP option. > > Potentially it would only take one bit from a header to say if this > envelope content is compressed using the compression algorithm > negotiated for this Security Association (unlike the 4 bytes of > IPCOMP). Or it could use the same format as IPCOMP... > > Does anyone (particularly anyone using XML) have any experience to offer? > > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > From nobody Thu Mar 10 14:18:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2137412DE11 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:18:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.289 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.289 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n0OfHYRsFYT7 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:17:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from plainfield.sei.cmu.edu (plainfield.sei.cmu.edu [192.58.107.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D82AC12DDE6 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:17:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from timber.sei.cmu.edu (timber.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.21.23]) by plainfield.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1408) with ESMTP id u2AMHonS005961; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 17:17:50 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cert.org; s=jthatj15xw2j; t=1457648270; bh=7V33YHOGB2iKFrhqJTXcSzKwGtIFUtxJfXzQmI98bEg=; h=From:To:CC:Subject:Date:Message-ID:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Type:MIME-Version:Sender:Reply-To; b=FB8xL6/egVkobye8qzndHVMREN2BAjTIHEDN46ygnjGpdrHztXuVd+GF/oYW4lcSS DlHkecF3vwRZsJDSzS9IQeGxPKTbzsW+ysu5Wv+zrVvKApIBOFk6gsfyU+Mfp6ZOL3 ul4adN8SNFl6i0Ejl2SHRnerAR61VA9R70r/GGxc= Received: from CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu (cassina.ad.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.28.249]) by timber.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id u2AMHXWZ017579; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 17:17:34 -0500 Received: from MARATHON.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.250]) by CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.249]) with mapi id 14.03.0266.001; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 17:17:44 -0500 From: "Roman D. Danyliw" To: "Xialiang (Frank)" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Re Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRecoaiEP38PIt/0KOrWcGenmb159TQS+Q Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 22:17:43 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E3836@marathon> References: <20160219143213.18440.22155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56C729D0.2080707@nttv6.jp> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1534@marathon> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E3836marathon_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "dots@ietf.org" , kaname nishizuka Subject: Re: [Dots] Re Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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[202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id qy7sm8713371pab.34.2016.03.10.19.48.41 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:48:42 -0800 (PST) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: "dots@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 10:48:38 +0700 Message-ID: <63E5D6FA-A71A-403E-8FAD-5E45A98C21B4@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E3836@marathon> References: <20160219143213.18440.22155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56C729D0.2080707@nttv6.jp> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1534@marathon> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E3836@marathon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5226) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Re Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 03:48:49 -0000 On 11 Mar 2016, at 5:17, Roman D. Danyliw wrote: > or that there is an additional element (flow analyzer?) in the DOTS > architecture (per the requirements draft) that needs to be described > (beyond a client, server, relay and mitigator). No - this is just one particular detection/classification/traceback mechanism. As we've discussed previously on this list and in WG meetings, the actual mechanisms utilized for detection/classification/traceback/mitigation are beyond the scope of this WG. > Thanks for the clarification. In figure 1, why are there multiple DOTS > clients/servers in ISP 1? There certainly could and most likely should be multiple DOTS clients, relays, and servers within any organization. > Like noted above with the flow analyzer, in the view of the draft, is > the orchestrator is an additional element of the DOTS architecture? Per the above, no - that is outside our remit. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Thu Mar 10 21:42:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CD8B12E0AB for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 21:42:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MtfTp8mEH6me for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 21:42:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 167A212D113 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 21:42:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CKG17172; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 05:42:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SZXEMA412-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.71) by lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 05:42:04 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA502-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.185]) by SZXEMA412-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.71]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 13:41:57 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank)" To: "Roman D. Danyliw" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Re Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRexq1CmPLb6ch3EqfuUf1DCluiZ9TkoMA Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 05:41:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160219143213.18440.22155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56C729D0.2080707@nttv6.jp> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1534@marathon> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E3836@marathon> In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E3836@marathon> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.43.91] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F12AEF99C0SZXEMA502MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020201.56E25AAE.008E, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.185, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: cfb1414a8e91f174bc731e75a430d9a9 Archived-At: Cc: "dots@ietf.org" , kaname nishizuka Subject: [Dots] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgUmUgRndkOiBOZXcgVmVyc2lvbiBOb3RpZmlj?= =?utf-8?q?ation_for_draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 05:42:12 -0000 --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F12AEF99C0SZXEMA502MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgUm9tYW4sDQpQbGVhc2Ugc2VlIG15IHJlc3BvbnNlIGlubGluZToNCg0K5Y+R5Lu25Lq6OiBS b21hbiBELiBEYW55bGl3IFttYWlsdG86cmRkQGNlcnQub3JnXQ0K5Y+R6YCB5pe26Ze0OiAyMDE2 5bm0M+aciDEx5pelIDY6MTgNCuaUtuS7tuS6ujogWGlhbGlhbmcgKEZyYW5rKQ0K5oqE6YCBOiBk b3RzQGlldGYub3JnOyBrYW5hbWUgbmlzaGl6dWthDQrkuLvpopg6IFJFOiBbRG90c10gUmUgRndk OiBOZXcgVmVyc2lvbiBOb3RpZmljYXRpb24gZm9yIGRyYWZ0LW5pc2hpenVrYS1kb3RzLWludGVy LWRvbWFpbi1tZWNoYW5pc20tMDAudHh0DQoNCg0KSGVsbG8gRnJhbmshDQoNCg0KDQooQ2hhaXIg aGF0IG9mZiDigKYpDQoNCj4gRnJvbTogRG90cyBbbWFpbHRvOmRvdHMtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9y Z10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIFhpYWxpYW5nIChGcmFuaykNCg0KPiDlj5Hku7bkuro6IERvdHMgW21h aWx0bzpkb3RzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIOS7o+ihqCBSb21hbiBELiBEYW55bGl3DQoNCj4g 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([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 23:50:55 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: "Roman D. Danyliw" , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] FW: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-transport-02.txt Thread-Index: AdF5T9I/2MrP6C2fSCOWg4lJ/PLIxABcUmvw Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 05:50:55 +0000 Message-ID: <399bf8eba312422bba12278825d679ae@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E0D0C@marathon> In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E0D0C@marathon> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.82.91] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] FW: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-transport-02.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 05:51:13 -0000 Hi Roman, Thanks for the detailed review. Please see inline > -----Original Message----- > From: Roman D. Danyliw [mailto:rdd@cert.org] > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2016 9:03 PM > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy); dots@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Dots] FW: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots- > transport-02.txt >=20 > Hi Tiru! >=20 > (Chair hat off ...) > Thanks for the updated draft. I'm reply to the -02 thread as you address= ed > my feedback from -01. A few comments: >=20 > ** Page 2 - 3, Section 1. Editorial. I like the three bullets from [REP= ORT] > because they make the problem concrete. I worry that in a few years those > specific numbers (e.g., 100 Gbps) will appear dated. While helpful, I do= n't > think they are needed. Yes, removed text. >=20 > ** Page 3, Section 1, Paragraph 3, "The proposed mechanism ...". The tex= t > only discusses coordination "within the same network". The DOTS use case= s > are broader than that to include coordination between different networks. Yes, updated text to clarify that the DOTS client and DOTS server may or ma= y be located in the same administrative domain. >=20 > ** Page 4, Section 3. The second paragraph describes how the client talk= s to > the relay that talks to the server that does the mitigation. IMO, this t= ext > needs to be caveated that this is just one of many possible arrangements. Yup, updated draft. > The requirements terminology tells us that clients can talk to servers di= rectly; > and that not all servers are mitigators. =20 Added text to clarify that the DOTS client can directly talk to the server = or via the DOTS relay. > Furthermore, in the description of the > "DOTS client periodically queries the server ... check[s] the counter ...= ", is not > found in the use case document. For example, in Section 4.1.1 of the use= - > case document, step (f), it is the server that "regularly transmit[s] DOT= S > mitigation status messages". Likewise, there is no reference to the coun= ters. Section 4.1.1 of the use-case document is for DOTS signal, but the counters= discussed in this section is for the data channel protocol explained in the requirements draft https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-= dots-requirements-00#section-2.3.=20 Step (f) needs more discussion, unsolicited response sent by the DOTS serve= r indicating the mitigation status message could be lost and DOTS client will not know if the server has sent the mitigation status. DOT= S client can periodically query the DOTS server to learn the mitigation sta= tus and if no response is received then re-transmit the query. >=20 > ** Page 5. Section 4. Editorial. I have no issue with the discussion o= f > RFC6555. However, in terms of the flow of the text, I felt prematurely t= ossed > into the conversation about IPv4 DTLS vs. IPv6 when I first read this sec= tion. I > didn't read that we're talking about DOTS signaling until page 6. I woul= d > recommend providing more intro on the order of "DOTS signaling can > happen with DTLS and TLS ..." Added intro. >=20 > ** Page 6, Bullet 5, "... client may want to probe the server to ensure i= t has > maintained cryptographic state." Is that a requirement that should be in= the > requirements draft? I also didn't read about this probe in Section 5 or = 6. Probes can be sent using DTLS heartbeat and hence not discussed in Section = 5 and 6.=20 Yes, It is already explained in the requirement draft (OP-003). >=20 > ** Page 7, Section 5.1. This introductory section would benefit for furt= her > description of what it means to request mitigate service. The sub-sectio= n > headers "{Convey, recall, retrieve} DOTS signal" confused me with their > generic names. In contrast, the filtering behavior described under 5.2.1= used > more specific names "{Install, Remove, Retrieve} filtering rules". Added the following lines to this section:=20 POST request is used to convey the DOTS signal from a DOTS client to a DOTS= server over the signal channel, possibly traversing a DOTS relay, indicati= ng the DOTS client's need for mitigation, as well as the scope of any reque= sted mitigation. DELETE request is used by the DOTS client to withdraw the = request for mitigation from the DOTS server. GET request is used by the DOT= S client to retrieve the DOTS signal(s) it had conveyed to the DOTS server. >=20 > ** Page 8, Section 5.1.1, How does the DOTS server decline a mitigation > request? With which response code ? 5xx will be the error code returned, updated draft. >=20 > ** Page 8, Section 5.1.1, What does a 200 response code mean? Beyond > "success", is it that the DOTS server has accepted the mitigation request= and > will try to mitigate the activity? I'd clarify the language here. Yes, clarified the language. NEW: Response code 200 (OK) will be returned in the response if the DOTS server = has accepted the mitigation request and will try to mitigate the attack. >=20 > ** Page 8, Section 5.1. With the caveat that this draft didn't explicitl= y state > that it's mapping against draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-00, in cross walking = the > two drafts, I don't see certain protocol elements described by the use ca= ses. > Specifically: > -- Use Case Section 4.1.1, step (f): "... DOTS servers regularly transmit= DOTS > mitigation status updates" > -- Use Case Section 4.1.1, step (g): "... mitigators [DOTS clients] may > optionally ... transmit DOTS mitigation efficacy updates to ... server" > -- Use Case Section 4.1.1, step (i): "... DOTS server transmit a DOTS mit= igation > status update to the ... mitigators [DOTS clients] to indicate that the D= DOS > attack has ceased" >=20 > Furthermore, the current use cases suggest that the DOTS server initiates= or > sends status back to the client under various circumstances. As I read t= his > draft, the communication appears to be client initiated. =20 Yes, we plan to update the draft to explain how the client can periodically= query and learn the mitigation status from the DOTS server. > Draft-moskowitz- > dots-gre-00 also stated the needed for peer-to-peer communication. >=20 > In fairness, none of this use-case behavior is currently in the requireme= nts > draft against which you are mapping. I don't think Section 4.1.1, step (g) is discussed in the requirement draft= , will discuss with my co-authors and update the requirements draft. Requir= ement (OP-005) covers Section 4.1.1, step (f) and step (i). >=20 > ** Page 10, Section 5.2, I don't understand the title of this section, "R= EST"? Changed title to " Protocol for Data Channel" >=20 > ** Page 10, Section 5.2, Is the overview of the DOTS relay behavior descr= ibed > in this section also applicable to "Mitigation Service requests" too?=20 Yes. > If so, I'd > recommend generalizing some of this text and putting it earlier or later = in the > draft. Done. >=20 > ** Page 10, Section 5.2. Editorial. This section notes that content is i= n JSON. > However, JSON examples have already been used to explain the protocol > since Section 5.1. Perhaps move the introduction to the format of the HT= TP > body earlier. Fixed. >=20 > ** Page 12, Section 5.2.1.1, "The relative order of two rules is determin= ed by > comparing their respective policy identifiers ... The rule with [a] lower > numeric policy identifier values has higher precedent." This guidance ma= kes > sense relative to this section. However, recall earlier in Section 5.1.1= , "policy- > id ... [is] used as an opaque identifier by the server". If the magnitud= e of > policy-id is now being checked, the identifier isn't opaque. While we're > dealing with different message types, I'd recommend against defining an > identically named field differently. Fixed. -Tiru >=20 > Regards, > Roman >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tirumaleswar > > Reddy (tireddy) > > Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2016 11:17 PM > > To: dots@ietf.org > > Subject: [Dots] FW: New Version Notification for > > draft-reddy-dots-transport- 02.txt > > > > Hi all, > > > > This update to the draft includes the following changes. > > > > * Proposes HappyEyeballs mechanism to convey DOTS signal > > * Addresses comments from the WG. > > * (D)TLS protocol profile to reduce delay to convey DOTS signal > > > > Comments and suggestions are welcome. > > > > -Tiru > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] > > Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 9:28 AM > > To: Prashanth Patil (praspati); Dan Wing (dwing); Mike Geller > > (mgeller); Robert Moskowitz; Mohamed Boucadair; Tirumaleswar Reddy > > (tireddy) > > Subject: New Version Notification for > > draft-reddy-dots-transport-02.txt > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-dots-transport-02.txt has been > > successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the IETF > repository. > > > > Name: draft-reddy-dots-transport > > Revision: 02 > > Title: Co-operative DDoS Mitigation > > Document date: 2016-02-09 > > Group: Individual Submission > > Pages: 17 > > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-dots- > transport- > > 02.txt > > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-dots-trans= port/ > > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-transport-= 02 > > Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-reddy-dots-tr= ansport-02 > > > > Abstract: > > This document discusses mechanisms that a DOTS client can use, when > > it detects a potential Distributed Denial-of-Service (DDoS) attack, > > to signal that the DOTS client is under an attack or request an > > upstream DOTS server to perform inbound filtering in its ingress > > routers for traffic that the DOTS client wishes to drop. The DOTS > > server can then undertake appropriate actions (including, blackhole, > > drop, rate-limit, or add to watch list) on the suspect traffic to th= e > > DOTS client, thus reducing the effectiveness of the attack. > > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.i= etf.org. > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Dots mailing list > > Dots@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Thu Mar 10 21:51:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AB7612DFC8 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 21:51:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jQpedv5_yxjT for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 21:51:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22a.google.com (mail-pa0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 184EE12D508 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 21:51:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id fe3so69619805pab.1 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 21:51:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=vDlcdfwDRaIuGeFEbcC3OmV4EOcjdtjiU+sK9ZMuqrc=; b=GD2xa3lZMPwZ2hG97TIkrbayc9sxr5sC8op+4MQQhBwY+81e1GFXkPmiQ7a/XKlsLS SYQlMj7i7wU6ZLdvBy4yId70qHKuftA/fd5ek2P2bhf1SpaOeh/P/konWymX0tnJR1ng OQeZemcxq9WOA4J5OaQzuAm152BeJE7GqPQ8M= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=vDlcdfwDRaIuGeFEbcC3OmV4EOcjdtjiU+sK9ZMuqrc=; b=YtwE/txHcxUcGiIA5Zsk9/jy2GXZiF9pDvCyVgxM9inPED4iqMo8p2RUytMV2Iqfje G2jO/f8Wu5XIyF2dvdcCZfqx+ebRYf/gHN3fYVX91Q2NaBKYOFGOP9j41lYFvTqIXcUR zS8SX/OEevTXJtLK976bnx9S47ejnGfisbNgXhebSN7eNmOMnuZ9NsFQZl1iOdcNfQQy R2dV9bi1ufpwdCjn0EN8H8bCBeY0m7XDd/JdgFKzebfCw8Y5LQum69qgMy0FWihh0Gce u0drjq9twQ6g/8EffT/VdIHOVgwtp0zuOIQG4hL2YweTmUXrsSD2UFKeKwOkR4icabZg /C0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLS8HHqZwCVN1gRXmExcshE+n3VtUi4UPyKmBIJASxD66cgsRtBnXav2GKgVBd/ndhS X-Received: by 10.66.140.14 with SMTP id rc14mr11184507pab.65.1457675495674; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 21:51:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.19.254.115] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 17sm9523895pfp.96.2016.03.10.21.51.33 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 10 Mar 2016 21:51:34 -0800 (PST) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: "dots@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 12:51:28 +0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <20160219143213.18440.22155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56C729D0.2080707@nttv6.jp> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1534@marathon> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E3836@marathon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5226) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Re Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 05:51:37 -0000 On 11 Mar 2016, at 12:41, Xialiang (Frank) wrote: > [Frank]: I mean both. I hope we can include this part of work in DOTS > WG. We can refer to it in deployment examples, but not prescribe it. > [Frank]: Good question. In general, one ISP can have multiple DOTS > systems to be responsible for its multiple domains respectively. It > can relieve the traffic pressure to one DOTS system in the ISP > network, and provide the optimized near-source mitigation in certain > level. I also think different deployment ways as you mentioned above > can work in various occasions. 1:1 coupling of server/client in the > orchestrator is now a simple model but is enough for most occasions. I > think the orchestrator should be an additional element for the DOTS > architecture. Once again, this is something to which we can refer in deployment models, but not prescribe. The purpose of this WG is to design a communications protocol that will be useful in most any DDoS mitigation scenario, not to prescribe elements beyond those required for the communications protocol itself to function (e.g., client, relay, server). ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Thu Mar 10 22:00:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FD1C12E0B1 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 22:00:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.521 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.521 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4Mp2WSyq0MEX for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 22:00:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FE5D12E0B0 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 22:00:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2094; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1457676039; x=1458885639; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=Lo+HatLH2QNPJTQdDeHTEl5/eA0k2aC0diKke+ZMsg4=; b=liEBCpZOoS/3u0xuiur3fu+6o3UffcfR3MYllSHAcT1wS+TIz+XJClFd QOQLrJgSP3UVKWDVcN7PK9NYuYTllMBq5nTg6RS6HYXMXld6dLl3C++TV v5YIO+X+n2cKgbq5xAvqbrbWlS1VRWKOYL74K86ojchxxtiNDL5HiqdgH A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AfAgC7XuJW/5BdJa1egz5SbQa6JAENg?= =?us-ascii?q?W0ZhXYCHIEmOBQBAQEBAQEBZCeEQQEBAQMBIxFDDgQCAQgRBAEBAwIjAwICAjA?= =?us-ascii?q?UAQcBCAEBBAESCIgUCK46jyEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEVfIUchEKHO?= =?us-ascii?q?oE6AQSXPgGFbIIuhVqPCY5vAR4BAUKDZGqJU34BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,319,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="85297588" Received: from rcdn-core-8.cisco.com ([173.37.93.144]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 11 Mar 2016 06:00:38 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-017.cisco.com (xch-aln-017.cisco.com [173.36.7.27]) by rcdn-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2B60cRC001641 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 11 Mar 2016 06:00:38 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-ALN-017.cisco.com (173.36.7.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 00:00:37 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 00:00:38 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: "gclark mti-systems.com" , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] FW: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-transport-02.txt Thread-Index: AdFq55Wu6t5spHmNQGaZHud2Gb01qAAcs+MABAAoPCA= Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 06:00:38 +0000 Message-ID: <0adf7c2338b44b099b93e1272027f54a@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <952cee8779a64dba8d7fa6abaf20c29d@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <179321819.6310.1455894816825.JavaMail.vpopmail@atl4oxapp110.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com> In-Reply-To: <179321819.6310.1455894816825.JavaMail.vpopmail@atl4oxapp110.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.82.91] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] FW: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-transport-02.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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[202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o7sm9970006pfa.37.2016.03.10.22.41.07 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 10 Mar 2016 22:41:08 -0800 (PST) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: "dots@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 13:41:05 +0700 Message-ID: <69193462-0AB3-448D-93DA-ABF31A869C59@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20160219143213.18440.22155.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56C729D0.2080707@nttv6.jp> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E1534@marathon> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E3836@marathon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5226) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Re Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 06:41:11 -0000 On 11 Mar 2016, at 12:51, Roland Dobbins wrote: > Once again, this is something to which we can refer in deployment > models, but not prescribe. To expand this point - an orchestrator can be a DOTS server, relay, client, or any combination thereof. An orchestrator is not in and of itself a necessary or desirable element of DOTS. DOTS must be usable in scenarios where orchestrators are present, as well as scenarios in which no orchestrators are involved. This also applies to flow collectors/analyzers. They can be DOTS servers, relays, clients, or any combination thereof. They are not required elements of DOTS itself. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Fri Mar 11 06:23:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A54112D745 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 06:22:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.32 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.32 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9DpmU4xgOtOQ for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 06:22:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from shetland.sei.cmu.edu (shetland.sei.cmu.edu [192.58.107.44]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FA4212D740 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 06:22:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from timber.sei.cmu.edu (timber.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.21.23]) by shetland.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1408) with ESMTP id u2BEMucE028707 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 09:22:56 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cert.org; s=jthatj15xw2j; t=1457706176; bh=dDjI/5wB8zUIm9D73ZWKdXQxY3wxYkNCBz5q/VvMn+k=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: In-Reply-To:References; b=B+VqS0i0mmuASamexe3gYiMO13MJHRnj6hGXoZ/u0hYF5JaHnz7p0PJ+H2DJfTR2D TjIwGZEMaVP5gLFIZCjmhAb9k5wEadoYqVV0o3m6MsGi416m7ukhBBYCb7bzVVrd3G 5nln7MssZtzhSC03qlb+/4wl8fm/jk0e6ys6nX8A= Received: from CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu (cassina.ad.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.28.249]) by timber.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id u2BEMent002008 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 09:22:40 -0500 Received: from MARATHON.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.250]) by CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.249]) with mapi id 14.03.0266.001; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 09:22:52 -0500 From: "Roman D. Danyliw" To: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Call for agenda items for IETF 95 Thread-Index: AdF7oJKL4IOAZGh4RjSqurhPNXVotw== Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 14:22:51 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96E3FBD@marathon> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] Call for agenda items for IETF 95 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 14:22:59 -0000 Hello WG! The preliminary agenda for the meeting in Buenos Aires has the DOTS WG sche= duled on: Friday, April 8, 2016 10:00-12:00 Friday Morning session I Atlantico B sec dots DDoS Open Threat Signaling =20 The final meeting agenda will be published later today, Friday, March 11. Please send any proposals or requests for agenda items to the WG chairs. Thanks, Roman and Tobias From nobody Fri Mar 11 18:42:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietf.org Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7CE312DDF5; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 15:05:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.16.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160311230544.15028.60124.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 15:05:44 -0800 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 18:42:03 -0800 Cc: Kathleen.Moriarty.ietf@gmail.com, dots@ietf.org Subject: [Dots] dots - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 95 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 23:05:45 -0000 Dear Roman Danyliw, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. dots Session 1 (2:00:00) Friday, Morning Session I 1000-1200 Room Name: Atlantico B size: 125 --------------------------------------------- Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: DDoS Open Threat Signaling Area Name: Security Area Session Requester: Roman Danyliw Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: mile sacm i2nsf saag Second Priority: opsawg opsarea Special Requests: A meeting time that avoids Monday morning is requested. --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Mar 16 21:32:53 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C711B12D73A for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2016 21:32:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YA5CHMZyylAl for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2016 21:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F026812D6A7 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2016 21:32:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2808; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1458189170; x=1459398770; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=7Ek33N2eCaUFfBjeZDqlat7ymgLYM+fGqRxvADNOvho=; b=dPcyOQZZDqC+eP7xdubRLWFIipSpQfoRPPwl351ta9RWlu0XheR9R1HW ldQOYHd4TiWzvWzecYE7nq0aIn2kSFC0VSGMTpDPz8Pe+7pt8+H7lUgC/ ljQlnAqd1BY5FIMbmi2NNBMCmhXXupJwL/vfYWMyuXBEOazB37oPbfHTk k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0APAgACM+pW/5JdJa1eg0ZTbga6CwENg?= =?us-ascii?q?W8hhWwCHIEeOBQBAQEBAQEBZBwLhEEBAQEEIxFDDgQCAQgRBAEBAwIjAwICAjA?= =?us-ascii?q?UAQYBAQUDAgQTCIgfDrEDj0IBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEVfIUihESEF?= =?us-ascii?q?w2DGIE6BY06ihcBhW6IC4FsS4N+iFeOfgEeAQFCg2VqAYkoPH4BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,348,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="87241619" Received: from rcdn-core-10.cisco.com ([173.37.93.146]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 17 Mar 2016 04:32:50 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com (xch-aln-018.cisco.com [173.36.7.28]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2H4Woog012232 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2016 04:32:50 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com (173.36.7.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 16 Mar 2016 23:32:49 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Wed, 16 Mar 2016 23:32:49 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-transport-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRgAVDaOsy7Lrnh0OqPc3KQFiuNZ9dCovA Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 04:32:49 +0000 Message-ID: <32c3aae920cb4dd89f8470cfaca9098c@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <20160317042702.19554.10552.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20160317042702.19554.10552.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.89.14] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] FW: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-transport-03.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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[68.49.167.203]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id qa4sm2885394igb.14.2016.03.19.20.15.33 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 19 Mar 2016 20:15:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Mortensen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_44B2B364-3897-45E1-B475-4B90EA4C449A" Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 23:15:32 -0400 References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: dots Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 03:15:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_44B2B364-3897-45E1-B475-4B90EA4C449A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi all. We=E2=80=99ve submitted a DOTS architecture draft for = consideration. We look forward to discussion and feedback. Thanks, andrew > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt > Date: March 19, 2016 at 11:10:54 PM EDT > To: "Andrew Mortensen=E2=80=9D, "Nik Teague", "Rich Compton", = "Flemming Andreasen", "Christopher Gray", "Tirumaleswar Reddy"=20 >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Andrew Mortensen and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-mortensen-dots-architecture > Revision: 00 > Title: Distributed-Denial-of-Service (DDoS) Open Threat = Signaling Architecture > Document date: 2016-03-19 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 25 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.= txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mortensen-dots-architecture/ > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00 >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > This document describes an architecture for establishing and > maintaining Distributed Denial of Service (DDoS) Open Threat > Signaling (DOTS) within and between networks. The document makes no > attempt to suggest protocols or protocol extensions, instead = focusing > on architectural relationships, components and concepts used in a > DOTS deployment. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 --Apple-Mail=_44B2B364-3897-45E1-B475-4B90EA4C449A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi all. We=E2=80=99ve submitted a DOTS architecture draft for = consideration. We look forward to discussion and feedback.

Thanks,
andrew

Begin forwarded = message:

From: = internet-drafts@ietf.org
Subject: = New Version = Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt
Date: = March 19, 2016 at 11:10:54 PM = EDT
To: = "Andrew Mortensen=E2=80=9D, "Nik Teague", "Rich = Compton", "Flemming Andreasen", "Christopher Gray", "Tirumaleswar = Reddy" 


A new version of I-D, = draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt
has been = successfully submitted by Andrew Mortensen and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: = draft-mortensen-dots-architecture
Revision: 00
Title:= = Distributed-Denial-of-Service (DDoS) Open Threat Signaling = Architecture
Document date: 2016-03-19
Group:= = Individual Submission
Pages: 25
URL: =            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mortensen-dots-archi= tecture-00.txt
Status: =         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mortensen-dots-architect= ure/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-0= 0


Abstract:
=   This document describes an architecture for establishing = and
  maintaining Distributed Denial of Service = (DDoS) Open Threat
  Signaling (DOTS) within = and between networks.  The document makes no
=   attempt to suggest protocols or protocol extensions, instead = focusing
  on architectural relationships, = components and concepts used in a
  DOTS = deployment.



Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the = time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are = available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF = Secretariat


= --Apple-Mail=_44B2B364-3897-45E1-B475-4B90EA4C449A-- From nobody Sun Mar 20 06:52:05 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1481312D57C for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2016 06:52:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zLe-0Qc8TJ8f for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2016 06:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from guri.nttv6.jp (guri.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:a::4]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9268E12D6FA for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2016 06:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z.nttv6.jp (z.nttv6.jp [192.168.8.15]) by guri.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id B413F4E60E for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2016 22:51:59 +0900 (JST) Received: from SR2-nishizuka.local (fujiko.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:136::141]) by z.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 89CD93AC97 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2016 22:51:59 +0900 (JST) References: <20160320133119.6890.31993.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: dots@ietf.org From: kaname nishizuka X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20160320133119.6890.31993.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <56EEAB6D.4030004@nttv6.jp> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 22:53:49 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20160320133119.6890.31993.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020106030700060909040604" Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-usecases-01.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 13:52:04 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020106030700060909040604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, updated inter-domain usecase draft. The revised points are: 1. aligned with terminology of existing WG draft. 2. added studies about DDoS protection methods. 3. clarified the usecases based on the feedback at the last IETF meeting and discussions given on the ML and direct messages. thank you, kaname nishizuka -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: I-D Action: draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-usecases-01.txt Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 06:31:19 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Inter-Domain DOTS Use Cases Author : Kaname Nishizuka Filename : draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-usecases-01.txt Pages : 20 Date : 2016-03-20 Abstract: This document describes inter-domain use cases of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling(DOTS). The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-usecases/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-usecases-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-usecases-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt --------------020106030700060909040604 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all,

updated inter-domain usecase draft.
The revised points are:
1. aligned with terminology of existing WG draft.
2. added studies about DDoS protection methods.
3. clarified the usecases based on the feedback at the last IETF meeting and discussions given on the ML and direct messages.

thank you,
kaname nishizuka

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: I-D Action: draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-usecases-01.txt
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 06:31:19 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org 


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


        Title           : Inter-Domain DOTS Use Cases
        Author          : Kaname Nishizuka
	Filename        : draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-usecases-01.txt
	Pages           : 20
	Date            : 2016-03-20

Abstract:
   This document describes inter-domain use cases of the DDoS Open
   Threat Signaling(DOTS).


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-usecases/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-usecases-01

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-usecases-01


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
I-D-Announce mailing list
I-D-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


--------------020106030700060909040604-- From nobody Sun Mar 20 07:44:56 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C1C112D6F1 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2016 07:44:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t7Tiio8YYq7d for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2016 07:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x231.google.com (mail-io0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E936012D535 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2016 07:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x231.google.com with SMTP id 124so33764259iov.3 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2016 07:44:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:subject:message-id:date:to:mime-version; bh=jPj5W0SPwQnsKO0qQCSVfsn5Bk84Bm6gMNFla0+3J68=; b=Pq8M3bWqWYdxK4fpQHxla8J1ZdXaEAUUJsXS5Yzy0LjREaNfMDKVs/9xRGXI+tFIec f5aHuP03PiF97HGBUhiScFIo63QB3bFYgmMAQcRzJh2s6sXSfGVYoH49l7jRyMTwvzak XuHWU290XoMbVnGMhs/fIt4zImudDERmd1RO8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:subject:message-id:date:to:mime-version; bh=jPj5W0SPwQnsKO0qQCSVfsn5Bk84Bm6gMNFla0+3J68=; b=TERz9dFKip+UK4+yQamnDP/+AefuL3n8vA8FJP4d+dGDUE8ghrkciQG+AilE9ZxZay Yg2VV/fTGZ583hxkeZ/u2cmrFztX51wef2Qokg0MqYcFL6xHrg64yz66HKnOPV7+t41o ZxSgIR+i647ltZ1RS7GwC2NjvzC38hqSwiT5mBiHs/4zSYJwqgXg7jEgggvzjOvB7RVQ Jpc11tk9LEaA5SXqmUDbI2TPNYnN55R4gu4uQqRN5vmgkabLD0O/8Qn3dUFkb9INlSl7 idWli5SSQjsy+VZ+UasOyv0Hz8+43Jm0WChU3MEmHTIZsR1sPY8edrci+5OLUSopzM3k ihyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJI9ASKe/WXFBSWVbgCKZSmT7/grU1vLpecAVdkW6V6Pez0UUdI/yFNlnnQWG0uLOJ6r X-Received: by 10.107.167.17 with SMTP id q17mr23595723ioe.61.1458485093010; Sun, 20 Mar 2016 07:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.6] (c-68-49-167-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net. [68.49.167.203]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id me7sm3568504igb.12.2016.03.20.07.44.52 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 20 Mar 2016 07:44:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Mortensen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CE2C92E8-C78E-41F2-AF61-096040D1A339" Message-Id: <4C1E9734-AC40-47E6-A133-430ADEE093A4@arbor.net> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 10:44:51 -0400 To: dots Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 14:44:55 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_CE2C92E8-C78E-41F2-AF61-096040D1A339 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi all. As we wrap up the next draft revision, the requirements editors = are seeking clarification on a some previously received feedback and a = handful of suggested requirements. 1. The role of the relay was brought up following the use cases draft = presentation at the last meeting [1], to which the response was: A relay is used for aggregating requests/responses, implementing = a filtering policy, or as a proxy between stateful and stateless = transport. Signal aggregation and proxying are certainly requirements of the = relay, but we=E2=80=99re looking for clarification of what = =E2=80=9Cimplementing a filtering policy=E2=80=9D means in this context. 2. The extent to which provisioning is in scope for DOTS. At the last = meeting, there was a suggestion that =E2=80=9Csome policy provisioning = or registration belongs to I2NSF=E2=80=9D [2]. 3. Whether reduced fate sharing warrants a requirement, as raised in = [3]. 4. Whether a DOTS server SHOULD be able to redirect a DOTS client to = another DOTS server [4]. Thank you! andrew (on behalf of requirements editors) -- [1] 2a in [2] 2b in [3] = = and [4] Med18 in = >.= --Apple-Mail=_CE2C92E8-C78E-41F2-AF61-096040D1A339 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi all. As we wrap up the next draft revision, the = requirements editors are seeking clarification on a some previously = received feedback and a handful of suggested requirements.

1. The role of the relay = was brought up following the use cases draft presentation at the last = meeting [1], to which the response was:

A relay is used for aggregating = requests/responses, implementing a filtering policy, or as a proxy = between stateful and stateless transport.

 Signal aggregation and proxying = are certainly requirements of the relay, but we=E2=80=99re looking for = clarification of what =E2=80=9Cimplementing a filtering policy=E2=80=9D = means in this context.


2. The extent to which = provisioning is in scope for DOTS. At the last meeting, there was a = suggestion that =E2=80=9Csome policy provisioning or registration = belongs to I2NSF=E2=80=9D [2].


3. = Whether reduced fate sharing warrants a requirement, as raised in = [3].


4. Whether a DOTS server SHOULD be able = to redirect a DOTS client to another DOTS server [4].


Thank you!

andrew (on behalf of requirements editors)

--

[1] 2a in <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-94-dots/>
=

[2] 2b in <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-94-dots/>
=

[3] <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moskowitz-dots-gre-00#section= -3.3.2> and <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moskowitz-dots-gre-00#section= -4>

[4] = Med18 in  <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/I7zqwcat6KdVES28Z7Pka= 5y8YDc>.
= --Apple-Mail=_CE2C92E8-C78E-41F2-AF61-096040D1A339-- From nobody Mon Mar 21 05:52:47 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93E8512D7A6 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 05:52:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uJUcO-dQ7i4X for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 05:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C25912D7F4 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 05:52:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C478621C8 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 08:52:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 24MRxt55QTXB for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 08:52:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2AA0F621C5 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 08:52:20 -0400 (EDT) To: dots From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <56EFEE80.1020901@htt-consult.com> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 08:52:16 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020308060809060007070406" Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 12:52:46 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020308060809060007070406 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New use case draft -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01.txt Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 05:50:35 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Stefan Fouant , Liang Xia , Nik Teague , Liang Xia , Roland Dobbins , Stephane Fouant , Robert Moskowitz , Daniel Migault A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Robert Moskowitz and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases Revision: 01 Title: Use cases for DDoS Open Threat Signaling Document date: 2016-03-21 Group: dots Pages: 21 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01 Abstract: This document delineates principal and ancillary use cases for DDoS Open Threat Signaling (DOTS), a communications protocol intended to facilitate the programmatic, coordinated mitigation of Distributed Denial of Service (DDoS) attacks via a standards-based mechanism. DOTS is purposely designed to support requests for DDoS mitigation services and status updates across inter-organizational administrative boundaries. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --------------020308060809060007070406 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New use case draft


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01.txt
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 05:50:35 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: Stefan Fouant <Stefan.Fouant@corero.com>, Liang Xia <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>, Nik Teague <nteague@verisign.com>, Liang Xia <Frank.xialiang@huawei.com>, Roland Dobbins <rdobbins@arbor.net>, Stephane Fouant <stefan.fouant@corero.com>, Robert Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>, Daniel Migault <daniel.migault@ericsson.com> 


A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01.txt
has been successfully submitted by Robert Moskowitz and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-ietf-dots-use-cases
Revision:	01
Title:		Use cases for DDoS Open Threat Signaling
Document date:	2016-03-21
Group:		dots
Pages:		21
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01
Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01

Abstract:
   This document delineates principal and ancillary use cases for DDoS
   Open Threat Signaling (DOTS), a communications protocol intended to
   facilitate the programmatic, coordinated mitigation of Distributed
   Denial of Service (DDoS) attacks via a standards-based mechanism.
   DOTS is purposely designed to support requests for DDoS mitigation
   services and status updates across inter-organizational
   administrative boundaries.

                                                                                  


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


--------------020308060809060007070406-- From nobody Mon Mar 21 06:20:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietf.org Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5545712D553; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 05:50:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.17.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160321125035.31929.58177.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 05:50:35 -0700 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 06:20:27 -0700 Cc: dots@ietf.org Subject: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 12:50:35 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling of the IETF. Title : Use cases for DDoS Open Threat Signaling Authors : Roland Dobbins Stefan Fouant Daniel Migault Robert Moskowitz Nik Teague Liang Xia Filename : draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2016-03-21 Abstract: This document delineates principal and ancillary use cases for DDoS Open Threat Signaling (DOTS), a communications protocol intended to facilitate the programmatic, coordinated mitigation of Distributed Denial of Service (DDoS) attacks via a standards-based mechanism. DOTS is purposely designed to support requests for DDoS mitigation services and status updates across inter-organizational administrative boundaries. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Mar 21 09:40:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FEF812D8E5 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 09:40:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Noaj0lgdX6jj for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 09:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x231.google.com (mail-pf0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 727EA12D512 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 09:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x231.google.com with SMTP id x3so270570111pfb.1 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 09:40:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=4QdCZxXhqMvN8CZTy4WEHcIOQSwsn58+wz4ZOQcLs+c=; b=KO+L3bTUvp0UNB60Bz7VyudpL/jabHBYu+lkKSqYetG58K1k7Tn+HylPkeGq1wGp6M NT7XxNW7p0BJdnBvNwTepRbsdFaFyUDunbql12ljp0W096v+ZTCvoi90nXeD0Phyy/1N OyEQspxxawFIBYrutHe8xCwKKYsmzZbbXGuzo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4QdCZxXhqMvN8CZTy4WEHcIOQSwsn58+wz4ZOQcLs+c=; b=ZBt7WizfpOcv7dVWGxTtgephutvjBxebmjjistqJxmVR657dgJR1W5XbFwosa0BhzH MefU/8myhy2qxw+7uxHbgzu4vQle2IIuxZsVUwVtc6RzztdXqOHLg6Q8dgdNDtNPFB9J mcyApkQ8sY5KAFJq9swkqyWv38FINZKGKC1A1zQhpNg41RG0rXFavrjHI0fZjtLMTQES lNpWiywafABdpCglVZefLqbxXb+LO0ojReWLLP9SWUKe0WGbmd04RSlbzO7rMZgWH4F7 sysKG+9N/wQWn5AIDhK3ykABYTapsPASrWIlX/jb0PJ6OH438EzQJ+8/hgpyr2/ZJdcj QlLQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKevqyskTNiJQphi52bwkG6sAutOtcI9og2UTtC0j8Zp1EuYaucoXa0NjMz/zmvM/Fb X-Received: by 10.98.72.83 with SMTP id v80mr1778308pfa.113.1458578437975; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 09:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.145] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g70sm41905280pfj.13.2016.03.21.09.40.36 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 21 Mar 2016 09:40:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: dots Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 23:40:34 +0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4C1E9734-AC40-47E6-A133-430ADEE093A4@arbor.net> References: <4C1E9734-AC40-47E6-A133-430ADEE093A4@arbor.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 16:40:44 -0000 On 20 Mar 2016, at 21:44, Andrew Mortensen wrote: > Signal aggregation and proxying are certainly requirements of the > relay, but we’re looking for clarification of what “implementing a > filtering policy” means in this context. Both DOTS servers and relays ought to be able to filter DOTS requests based upon various operator-defined criteria, IMHO. This could be as simple as refusing or ignoring registration requests from known abusive clients and as granular as disallowing certain message types. > 2. The extent to which provisioning is in scope for DOTS. At the last > meeting, there was a suggestion that “some policy provisioning or > registration belongs to I2NSF” [2]. Provisioning itself is outside the scope of DOTS, IMHO (that's a huge area that I2NSF, I2RS, et. al. are working). Registration of DOTS clients should be supported, IMHO. The following is from draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01: ----- 3.2. Ancillary Use Cases 3.2.1. Auto-registration of DOTS clients with DOTS servers An additional benefit of DOTS is that by utilizing agreed-upon authentication mechanisms, DOTS clients can automatically register for DDoS mitigation service with one or more upstream DOTS servers. The details of such registration are beyond the scope of this document. 3.2.2. Auto-provisioning of DDoS countermeasures The largely manual tasks associated with provisioning effective, situationally-appropriate DDoS countermeasures is a significant barrier to providing/obtaining DDoS mitigation services for both mitigation providers and mitigation recipients. Due to the 'self- descriptive' nature of DOTS registration messages and mitigation requests, the implementation and deployment of DOTS has the potential to automate countermeasure selection and configuration for DDoS mitigators. The details of such provisioning are beyond the scope of this document. ----- > 3. Whether reduced fate sharing warrants a requirement, as raised in > [3]. Avoidance of fate-sharing should be an operational recommendation, and the protocol itself and messaging should lend themselves to such to the degree that it is practicable, IMHO. > 4. Whether a DOTS server SHOULD be able to redirect a DOTS client to > another DOTS server [4]. Yes, given proper bidirectional authentication, IMHO. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Mon Mar 21 10:59:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FBE312D8CA for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:59:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BNWErPAm8ocg for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495A812D9AE for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:59:35 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,372,1454972400"; d="scan'208,217";a="170023991" Received: from marly.loria.fr (HELO [152.81.8.41]) ([152.81.8.41]) by mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA; 21 Mar 2016 18:59:33 +0100 Message-ID: <56F03684.7060207@inria.fr> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 18:59:32 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsO0bWUgRnJhbsOnb2lz?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dots@ietf.org References: <20160321175551.31929.22662.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20160321175551.31929.22662.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20160321175551.31929.22662.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070707080308010609070604" Archived-At: Cc: Giovane Moura , Abdelkader Lahmadi , "Marco Davids \(SIDN\)" Subject: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 17:59:45 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070707080308010609070604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear all, Please find a new draft proposing an IPv6 Hop-by-Hop option for delivering DOTS signal. All comments are welcome. Thanks, Jérôme -------- Message transféré -------- Sujet : New Version Notification for draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00.txt Date : Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:55:51 -0700 De : internet-drafts@ietf.org Pour : Jerome Francois , Abdelkader Lahmadi A new version of I-D, draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Jerome Francois and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option Revision: 00 Title: IPv6 DOTS Signal Option Document date: 2016-03-21 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 13 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00 Abstract: This document describes a delivery mechanism based on the IPv6 Hop- by-Hop options extension header type to carry a DOTS client signal message over a congested network due to a DDoS attack. The specified mechanism allows the DOTS client signal message to be included using an opportunistic way in outgoing IPv6 packets traveling then through the network to reach a DOTS server or relay. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --------------070707080308010609070604 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear all,

Please find a new draft proposing an IPv6 Hop-by-Hop option for delivering DOTS signal.
All comments are welcome.

Thanks,
JĂ©rĂ´me


-------- Message transféré --------
Sujet : New Version Notification for draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00.txt
Date : Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:55:51 -0700
De : internet-drafts@ietf.org
Pour : Jerome Francois <jerome.francois@inria.fr>, Abdelkader Lahmadi <abdelkader.lahmadi@loria.fr> 


A new version of I-D, draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Jerome Francois and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option
Revision:	00
Title:		IPv6 DOTS Signal Option
Document date:	2016-03-21
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		13
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00


Abstract:
   This document describes a delivery mechanism based on the IPv6 Hop-
   by-Hop options extension header type to carry a DOTS client signal
   message over a congested network due to a DDoS attack. The specified
   mechanism allows the DOTS client signal message to be included using
   an opportunistic way in outgoing IPv6 packets traveling then through
   the network to reach a DOTS server or relay.


                                                                                  


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


--------------070707080308010609070604-- From nobody Mon Mar 21 11:11:56 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9F9012D9D2 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 11:11:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.32 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.32 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rLyFdrZL0fM9 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shetland.sei.cmu.edu (shetland.sei.cmu.edu [192.58.107.44]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D705012D9EA for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 11:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from timber.sei.cmu.edu (timber.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.21.23]) by shetland.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id u2LIBndD032680 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 14:11:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cert.org; s=jthatj15xw2j; t=1458583909; bh=/s8FKO58K8BXZA5jxTneG4i2azPFPyMK0rtXTqv2NdE=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: In-Reply-To:References; b=Hbw2G4uRBMb8qif8/VkC94WMr5/OpZC3CcdwrdinTNxIZchk35wmNW/2xrdUoGnLV E6wsfP4WfUpfqgdJXzHtKpSgRSUvUhHxnl5JdsIHYqmgPUXtlnN8OV4q6Gq/ucqSB/ Wuj/8p9iv/H//AsRRIAOjWInu+kFjbV646Aw87mY= Received: from CASCADE.ad.sei.cmu.edu (cascade.ad.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.28.248]) by timber.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id u2LIBMWb030193 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 14:11:22 -0400 Received: from MARATHON.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.250]) by CASCADE.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.248]) with mapi id 14.03.0266.001; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 14:11:48 -0400 From: "Roman D. Danyliw" To: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Draft DOTS agenda for IETF 95 Thread-Index: AdGDnKg5XMN+uYC1TlWpO5uJMF7Hfw== Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 18:11:48 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96ECBED@marathon> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] Draft DOTS agenda for IETF 95 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 18:11:53 -0000 Hello WG! The draft agenda for the DOTS meeting in Buenos Aires has been published [1= ]. We have a full meeting. --[ agenda ]-- DDoS Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) WG Agenda Friday, November 3, 2015 1000-1200 Morning Session I Atlantico B SEC dots DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG Co-Chairs: Roman Danyliw and Tobias Gondrom 1. Note well, logistics and introduction (chairs, 5 min) 2. Use Case Discussion (35 min)=20 - draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01 (Roland Dobbins, 10 min) - draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-usecases-01 (Kaname Nishizuka, 10 mi= n) - Use cases of draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00 (Kaname Ni= shizuka, 10 min) - Additional use cases discussion (5 min) 3. Requirements Discussion (15 min) - draft-ietf-dots-requirements-01 (Andrew Mortensen, 10 min) - Additional requirements discussion (5 min) 4. Architecture Discussion (20 min) - draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00 (Andrew Mortensen, 15 min) - Additional architecture discussion (5 min) 5. Protocol Drafts (40 min) - draft-reddy-dots-transport-03 (Tirumaleswar Reddy, 10 min) - Protocol of draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00 (Frank Xiali= ang, 10 min) - draft-moskowitz-dots-gre-00 (Robert Moskowitz, 10 min) - Additional protocol discussion (5 min) - Introducing session layer considerations (Robert Moskowitz, 5 min) - draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-01 - draft-hares-i2nsf-slss-00 6. Closing discussion and way ahead summary (chairs, 5 min) --[ end ]-- If you have feedback, please contact the chairs. Regards, Roman [1] https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/agenda/agenda-95-dots From nobody Mon Mar 21 11:44:10 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5D1412D8C1 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 11:44:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IJ4c8ySchuwY for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 11:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44CA512D9DA for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 11:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E5AD6219F for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 14:43:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 3tvjgwz9UUT8 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 14:43:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 284B3621AE for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 14:43:43 -0400 (EDT) To: "dots@ietf.org" From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <56F040DD.9020700@htt-consult.com> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 14:43:41 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060300050206040404030209" Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 18:44:09 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060300050206040404030209 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For my agenda item on Introducing session layer considerations Please see the following draft. There are a number of 'embedded' drafts to work through to get the whole story. I will start a discuss on this tomorrow on the list. -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02.txt Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 11:40:20 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Robert Moskowitz , Susan Hares A new version of I-D, draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02.txt has been successfully submitted by Robert Moskowitz and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls Revision: 02 Title: DOTS Secure Session Layer Services Document date: 2016-03-21 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 6 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02 Abstract: This document describes using a session layer service for DOTS messaging to provide secure messaging while delivering on a number of DOTS requirements including avoiding fate-sharing with the under- lying communications. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --------------060300050206040404030209 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For my agenda item on

Introducing session layer considerations

Please see the following draft.  There are a number of 'embedded' drafts to work through to get the whole story.  I will start a discuss on this tomorrow on the list.



-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02.txt
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 11:40:20 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> 


A new version of I-D, draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02.txt
has been successfully submitted by Robert Moskowitz and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls
Revision:	02
Title:		DOTS Secure Session Layer Services
Document date:	2016-03-21
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		6
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02
Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02

Abstract:
   This document describes using a session layer service for DOTS
   messaging to provide secure messaging while delivering on a number of
   DOTS requirements including avoiding fate-sharing with the under-
   lying communications.

                                                                                  


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



--------------060300050206040404030209-- From nobody Mon Mar 21 14:48:16 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietf.org Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D9912D0E3; Mon, 21 Mar 2016 14:48:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.17.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160321214803.12207.22843.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 14:48:03 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: dots@ietf.org Subject: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-requirements-01.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 21:48:03 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling of the IETF. Title : Distributed Denial of Service (DDoS) Open Threat Signaling Requirements Authors : Andrew Mortensen Robert Moskowitz Tirumaleswar Reddy Filename : draft-ietf-dots-requirements-01.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2016-03-21 Abstract: This document defines the requirements for the Distributed Denial of Service (DDoS) Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) protocols coordinating attack response against DDoS attacks. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-requirements/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-requirements-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-requirements-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Mar 22 06:13:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2194312D5DC for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 06:13:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TMzb5qpPBsKd for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 06:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CA7712D793 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 06:13:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0881062180 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 09:13:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 0snPotdi2LOD for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 09:13:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3F83A6217E for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 09:13:04 -0400 (EDT) To: "dots@ietf.org" From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <56F144DE.1040100@htt-consult.com> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 09:13:02 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 13:13:29 -0000 I find the DOTS requirements for message transport interesting and somewhat unique: 1) Secure, of course. 2) Perform well in the face of high congestion, typically on the receive link. 3) Bi-directional. Actually tightly linked uni-directional flows. That is peered more than client/server (despite clear cleint/server roles). 4) Reduce communication stack fate-sharing to reduce attack surface. 5) Easily restartable during an attack. (recovery after agent failure/reboot) I can, and will if called on it, go through my logic in saying that TLS over TCP is not a good tool and even DTLS over UDP misses the mark. ESP in transport mode comes close, but we can do better. I have put this in: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02.txt DOTS Secure Session Layer Services This introduces a real session layer, something really not present in the IETF stack, that provides a set of services. SSLS and its services are laid out in: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hares-i2nsf-ssls-00.txt Sue (and I) put the design for SSLS in i2nsf, as it is broadly applicable in a number of areas under i2nsf. This includes i2rs and what I have called firstMILE (more on this shortly oer on MILE list). Two other drafts that fit into this architecture are: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-moskowitz-sse-03.txt and https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-moskowitz-gpcomp-00.txt SSLS (and SSE and GPComp) can use either IKEv2 or HIPv2 (or HIP-DEX) as the KMP to establish paired, tightly coupled uni-directional Security Associations. By operating above the transport (TCP,UDP, SCTP, SMS, etc.) the security state is independent of transport setup and teardown. SLS can even choose which transport to use under whatever knowledge it has of the condition and needs of the time. It can support multiple, simultaneous, communication channels (fully leveraging SCTP for i2rs). The work on SLS is not done. A few of us have been working on it for a year, but only recently have the pieces fallen together. SSE is ESP moved up the stack and I know of one non-public use of it. GPComp is IPCOMP moved up the stack and knowledge of which compression algorithm not advertised in each datagram. Those are really the easy parts. The KMP part is not a stretch. Both IKE and HIP are higher layer KMPs and can be set up to be called as needed. But some work is needed still. SLS is the new component. The i2nsf-ssls draft needs clean up; I expect it to be further along by IETF (though not postable). SO..... I open the floor to discussion. I would be interested in how others see using existing communication services to meet the DOTS requirements. I am interested in how others see SLS and particularly SSLS and its use for DOTS. I have a slot in the meeting, but I hope by that friday we have shaped some positions on this area. Robert Moskowitz From nobody Tue Mar 22 16:57:56 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13DE512D153 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 16:57:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id juua8cW_BCGM for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 16:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x22a.google.com (mail-pf0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C7F912D144 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 16:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id u190so332517870pfb.3 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 16:57:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=yX90W8iYaotH3GUOr10VATEcPIzGKBzc07gYZFEyyBo=; b=EUAmYoLXJ1JGtCjHts0TiZ0LeaywW+Quc9M0e4x3e00ulD/P2E3dKKs0ihX2xfVtOg KA2l7QRI0jmpEJ3LP2yixefDqcCbK9Cp+zRjI+POMgcahlYPhC1r9C9KhuZZmuO3ctPJ +jYRVNeBx+9Nr2tqlZlifHEsWPWtt+f6RvPv8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=yX90W8iYaotH3GUOr10VATEcPIzGKBzc07gYZFEyyBo=; b=V2Z6bhRruvXxZy+hsmPHgocBiSpyvh3SdjbH1d1Y8pMPMYyenkwLGvNjPXZrwUrmZu XHjQvJ+Rux4C2bgz15QC+Zo4Vgn7hl3C2nKBN3PM/pFg02RjOhRJKomwwcbtbM42xem9 YzW12vNXnpvEMu/JMF/0Eli2mrzS5l3oHYM3guh2NJu4qxmLyZIX4UaU34IGD7eeTru3 E3D1xhIBoZqEp+gHsk1Bb6Y9kcQzkB3X6/TQIBdwMchCMfO1kSj7/J38d+aktdvUtyXB CJGKGRwdB1qeVDJ2O8upVBdweGP5Vn6ANuKV9oetmzJ7dnOri4AxNOOt5vz17VtrgnBi AHLg== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJI3hf9yTFocZQ2DLNqptIqffDTCUXh5Od0SgdwkVdaI62/3Y5EzUObbofXQq76AOBp3 X-Received: by 10.98.89.209 with SMTP id k78mr58499070pfj.56.1458691073134; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 16:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.145] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v9sm50850199pfi.50.2016.03.22.16.57.50 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 22 Mar 2016 16:57:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: "dots@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 06:57:48 +0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <56F144DE.1040100@htt-consult.com> References: <56F144DE.1040100@htt-consult.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 23:57:55 -0000 On 22 Mar 2016, at 20:13, Robert Moskowitz wrote: > I would be interested in how others see using existing communication > services to meet the DOTS requirements. While I'm not at all averse to transport-independence - quite the opposite - supporting both UDP and TCP is a hard requirement. As noted previously, there are often highly restrictive network access policies in place on endpoint networks. Therefore, *relying* on anything other than TCP and UDP is a non-starter. Relying on ESP, for example, guarantees that DOTS will *never* be widely adopted by the very networks which need it the most - endpoint networks. I like SCTP a great deal, and would like to have the option to use it - but it cannot be the sole transport mechanism. Same for any other non-TCP/non-UDP protocol. Per previous discussion, TCP is non-optimal, but *must* be an option to allow signaling functionality in highly restrictive policy environments. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Tue Mar 22 18:31:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3B6112D1A2 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 18:31:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p-ICCeoBzGTW for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 18:31:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6619212D155 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 18:31:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5448A621A5; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 21:31:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id WUbiapLXFaWx; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 21:31:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1E8C46219D; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 21:31:46 -0400 (EDT) To: Roland Dobbins , "dots@ietf.org" References: <56F144DE.1040100@htt-consult.com> From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <56F1F200.8020404@htt-consult.com> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 21:31:44 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 01:31:55 -0000 And that is one of the drivers for SSLS. It moves the security and other functions above the IETF transport, allowing more easy selection of which transport. TCP, UDP, SCTP, SMS, XNS :), all supportable. I really listened to you, Roland. I do understand that I am proposing something new here, but I am working within the communications structure that you have experienced. Of course, watch corporate IT people get bent that the datagrams within TCP are all encrypted! But then for those clients you COULD use CMAC as defined in SSE draft. On 03/22/2016 07:57 PM, Roland Dobbins wrote: > On 22 Mar 2016, at 20:13, Robert Moskowitz wrote: > >> I would be interested in how others see using existing communication >> services to meet the DOTS requirements. > > While I'm not at all averse to transport-independence - quite the > opposite - supporting both UDP and TCP is a hard requirement. > > As noted previously, there are often highly restrictive network access > policies in place on endpoint networks. Therefore, *relying* on > anything other than TCP and UDP is a non-starter. > > Relying on ESP, for example, guarantees that DOTS will *never* be > widely adopted by the very networks which need it the most - endpoint > networks. > > I like SCTP a great deal, and would like to have the option to use it > - but it cannot be the sole transport mechanism. Same for any other > non-TCP/non-UDP protocol. > > Per previous discussion, TCP is non-optimal, but *must* be an option > to allow signaling functionality in highly restrictive policy > environments. > > ----------------------------------- > Roland Dobbins > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > From nobody Tue Mar 22 19:10:11 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B77C912D11C for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:10:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UKnnOSY25gxT for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BEDD12D16E for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:10:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1737; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1458699008; x=1459908608; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=Ker2/WjMFr/F+qmUMQRGm/Tc4oBN/V25ryJoDRQr48o=; b=Ma1l3AR17npZWmObGNspa+6d/jmfpgdzcmRIHTUdsQd8YD1NfMiQsKOt 1OHe+P8xugLozDkP/AArS7i/4SaFAC8AXvYZVX79GvS+aKfsyVnaoUaQw aQ9Lrug3LGefcxTvuxqa6I2JlxmzX7ROIkr19+avFKMPQh0KZsNhO1h2H 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D7AQDH+fFW/4oNJK1egzNTega6aAENg?= =?us-ascii?q?XAXCoVsAoFMOBQBAQEBAQEBZCeEQQEBAQMBAQEBNzQXBAIBCA4DBAEBAR4JByc?= =?us-ascii?q?LFAkIAgQBEgiIFwgOwQkBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQERBIYehESKEgWHY?= =?us-ascii?q?I94AYhihRqPEY8GAR4BAUKDZWqJCH4BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,380,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="85813463" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 23 Mar 2016 02:10:07 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com (xch-aln-018.cisco.com [173.36.7.28]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2N2A7IG029129 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 23 Mar 2016 02:10:07 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com (173.36.7.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 21:10:00 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 21:10:01 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Roland Dobbins , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS Thread-Index: AQHRhDym0qapxcUZckWqMQVn9bV0MJ9meJ0A///QW3A= Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 02:10:01 +0000 Message-ID: <42d5273cb0224ff6ad5005b79a3807d7@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <56F144DE.1040100@htt-consult.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.54.87] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 02:10:09 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 5:28 AM > To: dots@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS >=20 > On 22 Mar 2016, at 20:13, Robert Moskowitz wrote: >=20 > > I would be interested in how others see using existing communication > > services to meet the DOTS requirements. >=20 > While I'm not at all averse to transport-independence - quite the opposit= e - > supporting both UDP and TCP is a hard requirement. >=20 > As noted previously, there are often highly restrictive network access po= licies > in place on endpoint networks. Therefore, *relying* on anything other th= an > TCP and UDP is a non-starter. Yup. >=20 > Relying on ESP, for example, guarantees that DOTS will *never* be widely > adopted by the very networks which need it the most - endpoint networks. >=20 > I like SCTP a great deal, and would like to have the option to use it - b= ut it > cannot be the sole transport mechanism. Same for any other non-TCP/non- > UDP protocol. SCTP has NAT/Firewall traversal problem, to overcome this WebRTC Data chann= els uses SCTP over DTLS over UDP. No benefit of using SCTP compared to UDP = in order to address the NAT/Firewall traversal problems. -Tiru >=20 > Per previous discussion, TCP is non-optimal, but *must* be an option to > allow signaling functionality in highly restrictive policy environments. >=20 > ----------------------------------- > Roland Dobbins >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Tue Mar 22 19:45:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7A5A12D104 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:45:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M5PE02JstImX for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7475712D0ED for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:45:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2020; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1458701117; x=1459910717; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=zI1zpRsp6/9RsBLPIvhssWvBD6XaaPc+JHneI+RIbgU=; b=MFJU4ePSzCwzU0zITzgKU6HsCsvJIQtIpzFnZ1xeNuwlukonfO9LJDq9 jFL3L6G/MFXHFln6qnWImryRkUN7JNKNwgZ2pKEz687+OyXYjBszbS5tF FEGs33dqIOOB53vtB+Eg2aX44EXC7WmdCF4rlKPTdhe9bemCpnLUekxWm M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D8AQDCAvJW/5hdJa1egzNTega6agENg?= =?us-ascii?q?XAXCoVsAhyBMDgUAQEBAQEBAWQnhEEBAQEDAQEBASAROhcGAQgOAwQBAQECAiM?= =?us-ascii?q?DAgQlCxQBCAkBBAESCIgXCA6wC5B+AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBEQR8h?= =?us-ascii?q?SKERIQkLoJqglYFh2CPeAGNfI8RjwYBHgEBQoNlaokIfgEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,380,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="83563755" Received: from rcdn-core-1.cisco.com ([173.37.93.152]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 23 Mar 2016 02:45:16 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com (xch-rcd-018.cisco.com [173.37.102.28]) by rcdn-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2N2jGqD030882 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 23 Mar 2016 02:45:16 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com (173.37.102.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 21:45:15 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 21:45:16 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Roland Dobbins , dots Thread-Topic: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed Thread-Index: AdGErgSz8RUFCDA6TbiAce0Wi+n0NQ== Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 02:45:16 +0000 Message-ID: <72449124df3847efaf7c00eeb7bb7517@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.33.178] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 02:45:19 -0000 PiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBEb3RzIFttYWlsdG86ZG90cy1i b3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgUm9sYW5kIERvYmJpbnMNCj4gU2VudDogTW9u ZGF5LCBNYXJjaCAyMSwgMjAxNiAxMDoxMSBQTQ0KPiBUbzogZG90cw0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTog W0RvdHNdIHJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyBjbGFyaWZpY2F0aW9ucyBuZWVkZWQNCj4gDQo+IE9uIDIwIE1h ciAyMDE2LCBhdCAyMTo0NCwgQW5kcmV3IE1vcnRlbnNlbiB3cm90ZToNCj4gPiAzLiBXaGV0aGVy IHJlZHVjZWQgZmF0ZSBzaGFyaW5nIHdhcnJhbnRzIGEgcmVxdWlyZW1lbnQsIGFzIHJhaXNlZCBp bg0KPiA+IFszXS4NCj4gDQo+IEF2b2lkYW5jZSBvZiBmYXRlLXNoYXJpbmcgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGFu IG9wZXJhdGlvbmFsIHJlY29tbWVuZGF0aW9uLCBhbmQNCj4gdGhlIHByb3RvY29sIGl0c2VsZiBh bmQgbWVzc2FnaW5nIHNob3VsZCBsZW5kIHRoZW1zZWx2ZXMgdG8gc3VjaCB0byB0aGUNCj4gZGVn cmVlIHRoYXQgaXQgaXMgcHJhY3RpY2FibGUsIElNSE8uDQoNCldoeSB3b3VsZCB0aGUgRE9UUyBh Z2VudHMgSVAgYWRkcmVzc2VzL3BvcnRzIGNoYW5nZSBkdXJpbmcgdGhlIGF0dGFjayA/DQpUaG91 Z2ggdGhlcmUgaXMgYmluZGluZyB0byBhIDUtdHVwbGUsIChEKVRMUyBhbGxvd3Mgc2Vzc2lvbiBy ZXN1bXB0aW9uLg0KDQo+IA0KPiA+IDQuIFdoZXRoZXIgYSBET1RTIHNlcnZlciBTSE9VTEQgYmUg YWJsZSB0byByZWRpcmVjdCBhIERPVFMgY2xpZW50IHRvDQo+ID4gYW5vdGhlciBET1RTIHNlcnZl ciBbNF0uDQo+IA0KPiBZZXMsIGdpdmVuIHByb3BlciBiaWRpcmVjdGlvbmFsIGF1dGhlbnRpY2F0 aW9uLCBJTUhPLg0KDQpSZWRpcmVjdGluZyB0aGUgRE9UUyBjbGllbnQgdG8gYW5vdGhlciBET1RT IHNlcnZlciBzaG91bGQgYmUgYXZvaWRlZCBkdXJpbmcgYXR0YWNrIHRpbWUsIHJlLWRpcmVjdGlv biBtYXkgaW5jdXIgbXVsdGlwbGUgcm91bmR0cmlwcyBiZWZvcmUgRE9UUyBzaWduYWwgY2FuIGJl IGNvbnZleWVkIHRvIHRoZSBET1RTIHNlcnZlci4gDQpIb3cgZG9lcyB0aGUgb2xkIERPVFMgc2Vy dmVyIGVuc3VyZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBuZXcgRE9UUyBzZXJ2ZXIgdG8gd2hpY2ggdGhlIGNsaWVudCBp cyByZS1kaXJlY3RlZCBkb2VzIG5vdCBmdXJ0aGVyIHJlLWRpcmVjdCB0aGUgY2xpZW50IA0KKGF2 b2lkIGVuZGxlc3NseSByZS1kaXJlY3RpbmcgdGhlIERPVFMgY2xpZW50KSA/DQoNCi1UaXJ1DQoN Cj4gDQo+IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQo+IFJvbGFuZCBEb2Ji aW5zIDxyZG9iYmluc0BhcmJvci5uZXQ+DQo+IA0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBEb3RzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBEb3RzQGlldGYu b3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZG90cw0K From nobody Tue Mar 22 20:07:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F92E12D5E2 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:07:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lvxJZoBgAd0I for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x22e.google.com (mail-pf0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E2EE12D5D2 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id x3so5508618pfb.1 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:07:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=M7dpyom8g+1ud+HqDLAjLWzwLxK2s4AnMSlqs1KU9ek=; b=VpQbqVumC8wrSkz02WyQSjKSDLiumjsDLR1SyGcNg9PY8t/2g9b/RR9/OpXmelCDGr 9msAMOrK3hdAHj2cl/tuD1QwEye50ZeVQASukZoLUMaLR1+oo32eTJFzpBaAJ9WMyiAm Fcuv6UOqj+XSnqa9vRLurjpM6b3KGSwMTUq1g= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=M7dpyom8g+1ud+HqDLAjLWzwLxK2s4AnMSlqs1KU9ek=; b=jgOr4Y9F1uf1ih376Qjuc7PlWgoMSPuuC6BYgyVrN8LDq4dSgLHCEbD41wNjCmwlyI bab+ztBAc+UBx5Ti8+ns+ZziJ6fX5nMl8FdjOWOyO7BGTdGF5LPZElxQ6b6BzQgYBto7 bHp9jg1FKkJ8l1rja1EHjzxvgt9IVWeOKcmwECiSlx5Ca4rHpi169B1iFh8+9Go3hOs8 iPnbIgX3KueWmX0zLQg349opYWYmcXL894g7DAJmyL5PzrKXT9FTeanrpInhULXI+QyF cskahYmXMxfObYZLUozBNERs+VnqlGaxB3yBjnCjHMfEFlIxL0a9vkIVxa2UsL7gPh69 emeQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLHFxX9Twq0XlkqiDEgvXs99fKKb8DspIbWlaJeQx/4VfygflElG9VzSPv9kl42Ecee X-Received: by 10.98.33.208 with SMTP id o77mr782323pfj.108.1458702421811; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.145] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id wb7sm398977pab.3.2016.03.22.20.06.59 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:07:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: "dots@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 10:06:57 +0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <42d5273cb0224ff6ad5005b79a3807d7@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <56F144DE.1040100@htt-consult.com> <42d5273cb0224ff6ad5005b79a3807d7@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 03:07:03 -0000 On 23 Mar 2016, at 9:10, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: > No benefit of using SCTP compared to UDP in order to address the > NAT/Firewall traversal problems. That's true today, and is likely to be true tomorrow, and next year, etc. This is why TCP and UDP are must-haves. But having the ability to run over SCTP, or anything else one desires, would be nice. This entails a clear separation of DOTS semantics from transport semantics - which is a good design practice, anyways. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Tue Mar 22 20:10:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5303C12D50F for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:10:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GRSBTO-urWsn for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atl4mhob16.myregisteredsite.com (atl4mhob16.myregisteredsite.com [209.17.115.109]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 183B712D128 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atl4oxapp106.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com ([10.30.71.143]) by atl4mhob16.myregisteredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id u2N3ATe8014045; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 23:10:29 -0400 Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 23:10:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "gclark mti-systems.com" To: dots@ietf.org, Roland Dobbins Message-ID: <322156233.32795.1458702629342.JavaMail.vpopmail@atl4oxapp106.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com> In-Reply-To: References: <56F144DE.1040100@htt-consult.com> <42d5273cb0224ff6ad5005b79a3807d7@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.6.2-Rev35 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: "gclark mti-systems.com" List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 03:10:32 -0000 > But having the ability to run over SCTP, or anything else one desires, > would be nice. This entails a clear separation of DOTS semantics from > transport semantics - which is a good design practice, anyways. +1 From nobody Tue Mar 22 20:14:35 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB30E12D604 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:14:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NnZtks0NsYO2 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x234.google.com (mail-pf0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F51112D1E6 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x234.google.com with SMTP id n5so5668302pfn.2 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:14:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=hU0V/aJs521de6r6xjIYb1gUqt6FYiv5kOLN4Ukn340=; b=je3jd+0ANXT1r+uYR0lMuENqA+szFSfQdAOZjHnYgx5CUNh+zKcVworM2g5a87ClOl jp4VkOoNcMrchwegGCPY64bhjjM7w8Xjpsu6hOkMzhyUdMfiLonF13C/M7jVOQ5wv2eB Q9fELcqq2TZONlGctzcVkzUyDo91waxeur/Dc= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=hU0V/aJs521de6r6xjIYb1gUqt6FYiv5kOLN4Ukn340=; b=ABZ4+XgjD3KOmvJ+xWznfcoUXKpPd1DZNCszsCZC02dGI8EhjspPyAgXl5ZiaDUer0 MfgZRHF2zphTi9MoccTTlsagZ9nPaX+7DSCPo11sJ0dwGSDEYHleTBwDfOdPPSI6gnzC 3eHI0AIKp2eULGEIQLfHvL9VSi6Zdl9jbfGAMviw1F1x7z8aZGsGhMPhHYPGeWo/OaPs tjV09gqgkB/HEpr9jIihe40zONsSkgr1EPXbGfgliivW8xZFGRYmBmYMGTc0wjVD5rZw CdkoqOYQv6kjakPOjNRusFNQf3FaAGKzhrnF7Baul+17cMxgaJv3Xenm020LZg3FGcwJ SiRw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJI4+sN2yVBHX1DO2hJoH/I5OyMK1iv24trUCOuyo77EVLm+TxAei1aheE5X32E9N5Wr X-Received: by 10.98.86.77 with SMTP id k74mr810565pfb.28.1458702873130; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.145] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 8sm390136pfk.69.2016.03.22.20.14.31 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:14:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: dots Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 10:14:29 +0700 Message-ID: <6CCE4254-1E55-41D5-A299-52BB60F75C6B@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <72449124df3847efaf7c00eeb7bb7517@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <72449124df3847efaf7c00eeb7bb7517@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 03:14:35 -0000 On 23 Mar 2016, at 9:45, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: > Why would the DOTS agents IP addresses/ports change during the attack > ? > Though there is binding to a 5-tuple, (D)TLS allows session > resumption. Due to a DDoS attack, perhaps? ;> Or a power failure, or . . . ? All the usual BCPs should be implemented to protect DOTS communications channels. Nevertheless, the idea of a DOTS 'session' or 'conversation' or 'thread-ID' or whatever would de-conflate DOTS messaging itself from layer-3 node EIDs, and I think that would be a Good Thing. > Redirecting the DOTS client to another DOTS server should be avoided > during attack time Why? > re-direction may incur multiple roundtrips before DOTS signal can be > conveyed to the DOTS server. And what if this is necessary, for some reason? We should not be enforcing operational practice straitjackets on DOTS users via arbitrary constraints, IMHO. > How does the old DOTS server ensure that the new DOTS server to which > the client is re-directed does not further re-direct the client (avoid > endlessly re-directing the DOTS client) ? It's quite possible that multiple redirects might be necessary. Anything has the potential to be pathological, given human or machine/code error. That alone isn't a reason to disallow potentially operationally-useful functionality, IMHO. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Tue Mar 22 20:20:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 650F312D604 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:20:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7PqAy2pBOkQD for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45D6C12D61D for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DCF2621A5; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 23:20:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id WxvKlokPC+qo; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 23:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 758816216C; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 23:20:36 -0400 (EDT) To: "gclark mti-systems.com" , dots@ietf.org, Roland Dobbins References: <56F144DE.1040100@htt-consult.com> <42d5273cb0224ff6ad5005b79a3807d7@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <322156233.32795.1458702629342.JavaMail.vpopmail@atl4oxapp106.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com> From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <56F20B80.9000903@htt-consult.com> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 23:20:32 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <322156233.32795.1458702629342.JavaMail.vpopmail@atl4oxapp106.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 03:20:47 -0000 On 03/22/2016 11:10 PM, gclark mti-systems.com wrote: > >> But having the ability to run over SCTP, or anything else one desires, >> would be nice. This entails a clear separation of DOTS semantics from >> transport semantics - which is a good design practice, anyways. > +1 I have provided a clear separation. But I do not have the knowledge/experience to define the DOTS semantics. I am looking at one other needed service in SLS, which is a clear API for a message START/MIDDLE/END; I can add this to the CHUNKING service or make it separate. TCP lacks this. Look at what NETCONF has to do to indicate end of their XML message; really messy. I thought, why don't they just define an rpc xml object? Then I realized (based on my experience over the past few days writing xml for internet drafts) that you cannot be assured that a programmer will get the xml structure right and what is sent may not parse properly at the receiver. Back to square one with TCP's TELNETish approach of handling streams into packets. Messy at best. UDP just means the programmer can get more wrong. From nobody Tue Mar 22 20:35:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE3812D186 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:35:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A8Lk50dRr8YW for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C503812D0E8 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0832862141; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 23:35:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id AfAnxtZUlRyP; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 23:35:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CCD5762118; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 23:35:15 -0400 (EDT) To: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" , Roland Dobbins , dots References: <72449124df3847efaf7c00eeb7bb7517@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <56F20EF2.4060504@htt-consult.com> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 23:35:14 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <72449124df3847efaf7c00eeb7bb7517@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 03:35:28 -0000 On 03/22/2016 10:45 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins >> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:11 PM >> To: dots >> Subject: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed >> >> On 20 Mar 2016, at 21:44, Andrew Mortensen wrote: >>> 3. Whether reduced fate sharing warrants a requirement, as raised in >>> [3]. >> Avoidance of fate-sharing should be an operational recommendation, and >> the protocol itself and messaging should lend themselves to such to the >> degree that it is practicable, IMHO. > Why would the DOTS agents IP addresses/ports change during the attack ? > Though there is binding to a 5-tuple, (D)TLS allows session resumption. A mobile target, though how such a one can be targetted is interesting. The attack would have to be against a whole range of addresses. Or more likely a cable connection that due to the attack bounces and assigns a new address. That makes more sense. Perhaps the cable ISPs can add here. > >>> 4. Whether a DOTS server SHOULD be able to redirect a DOTS client to >>> another DOTS server [4]. >> Yes, given proper bidirectional authentication, IMHO. > Redirecting the DOTS client to another DOTS server should be avoided during attack time, re-direction may incur multiple roundtrips before DOTS signal can be conveyed to the DOTS server. > How does the old DOTS server ensure that the new DOTS server to which the client is re-directed does not further re-direct the client > (avoid endlessly re-directing the DOTS client) ? And as I said to you and Andy, how is the security state maintained? Is it duplicated ahead of this event? Does a new security state need to be negotiated at a time where such a negotiation is likely to fail? So I also wonder how this works. From nobody Tue Mar 22 20:52:43 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7076E12D662 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:52:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GFKmZ_V_P7dq for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE33E12D1E3 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:52:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1612; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1458705160; x=1459914760; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=5A8/bf3pMHXiXVRNUgkH0fP0/iKTmokRGorOwNblgdg=; b=TwFhU92/KZL4KAFSqtuVd1S1cr0G/3DlD1flei5Ormz8wU/sw7zP6XKt iyMRAcvbczmdNFg75ek/tfCSjrPMTG0iyKwJ3dUXW0+lIGV+6NEtCaQRH l5EDSi+lr8JdVwq6nuNY7snCC9TV9lcG1LvGTvOqiEfzSIB53Lm+Mkh6z s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D7AQDoEfJW/4MNJK1egzNTega6agENg?= =?us-ascii?q?XAXCoVsAoFMOBQBAQEBAQEBZCeEQQEBAQQBAQE3NBcEAgEIDgMEAQEBHgkHJws?= =?us-ascii?q?UCQgCBAESCIgfDsEDAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBEQSGHoREihIFh2CPe?= =?us-ascii?q?AGFcIJyhRqPEY8GAR4BAUKDZWqJCH4BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,380,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="85688287" Received: from alln-core-1.cisco.com ([173.36.13.131]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 23 Mar 2016 03:52:39 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com (xch-rcd-017.cisco.com [173.37.102.27]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2N3qdmg011998 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 23 Mar 2016 03:52:40 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 22:52:39 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 22:52:39 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Roland Dobbins , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS Thread-Index: AQHRhDym0qapxcUZckWqMQVn9bV0MJ9meJ0A///QW3CAAGR+gP//scGQ Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 03:52:39 +0000 Message-ID: <2ec6bb97947c409cb656ca77d05977e0@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <56F144DE.1040100@htt-consult.com> <42d5273cb0224ff6ad5005b79a3807d7@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.33.178] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 03:52:42 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 8:37 AM > To: dots@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS >=20 > On 23 Mar 2016, at 9:10, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: >=20 > > No benefit of using SCTP compared to UDP in order to address the > > NAT/Firewall traversal problems. >=20 > That's true today, and is likely to be true tomorrow, and next year, etc.= This > is why TCP and UDP are must-haves. >=20 > But having the ability to run over SCTP, or anything else one desires, wo= uld > be nice. This entails a clear separation of DOTS semantics from transpor= t > semantics - which is a good design practice, anyways. Yes, that's one of the reasons https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots= -transport-03 for DOTS signaling/data channel proposes to use COAP which ca= n run over UDP/TCP and any other transport like SCTP in future. IMHO, the W= G should mandate transports like UDP/TCP for implementations to support and= test for interoperability. Any new transport requires enhancements to impl= ementations and interoperable testing. Just like the WG discussed the reaso= ns for picking UDP and TCP, other transports needs more discussion on why i= t should be mandated by the DOTS protocols. -Tiru >=20 > ----------------------------------- > Roland Dobbins >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Tue Mar 22 22:07:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D43612DB21 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 22:07:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wz3FCVAblfLg for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 22:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE25412D0A7 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 22:07:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2749; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1458709674; x=1459919274; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=HU3mAqK1EWYZyLKvKKfnhgUwOzXc6vf/0e4PASPdsz4=; b=RbPQvQiSBPbeUvL4vUTxSJD+qEeI0C/cYJqYilMEEFM2ahzt2H9HwI36 QXGcpaBV+WkOY7qEO6zG44qlbP0RI9UW20yGFO0Kq/MBqlg8f1RE73nyp 3W13fV5dV9LME6C2wG795URFXrqTosS+t0PZg5w27d4h6v+d9rimjL245 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D7AQBDJPJW/4YNJK1egzNTega6agENg?= =?us-ascii?q?XAXCoVsAoFIOBQBAQEBAQEBZCeEQQEBAQMBAQEBNzQXBAIBCA4DBAEBAR4JByc?= =?us-ascii?q?LFAkIAQEEARIIiBcIDsB6AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBEQSGHoREhCAEh?= =?us-ascii?q?W4Fh2CPeAGNfI8RjwYBHgEBQoNlaokIfgEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,380,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="88573714" Received: from alln-core-12.cisco.com ([173.36.13.134]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 23 Mar 2016 05:07:53 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com (xch-rcd-018.cisco.com [173.37.102.28]) by alln-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2N57rYm023897 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 23 Mar 2016 05:07:53 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com (173.37.102.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 00:07:53 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 00:07:53 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Roland Dobbins , dots Thread-Topic: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed Thread-Index: AdGErgSz8RUFCDA6TbiAce0Wi+n0NQALgDGAAAkgVjA= Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 05:07:53 +0000 Message-ID: <1833e1de0cb94fcfb5ba2f89812d6862@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <72449124df3847efaf7c00eeb7bb7517@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <6CCE4254-1E55-41D5-A299-52BB60F75C6B@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <6CCE4254-1E55-41D5-A299-52BB60F75C6B@arbor.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.33.178] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 05:07:56 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 8:44 AM > To: dots > Subject: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed >=20 > On 23 Mar 2016, at 9:45, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: >=20 > > Why would the DOTS agents IP addresses/ports change during the attack > > ? > > Though there is binding to a 5-tuple, (D)TLS allows session > > resumption. >=20 > Due to a DDoS attack, perhaps? >=20 > ;> >=20 > Or a power failure, or . . . ? >=20 > All the usual BCPs should be implemented to protect DOTS communications > channels. Nevertheless, the idea of a DOTS 'session' or 'conversation' > or 'thread-ID' or whatever would de-conflate DOTS messaging itself from > layer-3 node EIDs, and I think that would be a Good Thing. If there is no binding then the DOTS agent can receive any DOTS message fro= m any IP address and will have to defend from various new attacks that (D)T= LS, IPSEC etc. don't face today. Security protocols are flexible to support= session resumption where client moves from one IP address to another for m= obility. >=20 > > Redirecting the DOTS client to another DOTS server should be avoided > > during attack time >=20 > Why? Let's say if TCP is used for DOTS signaling channel, DOTS signal can only b= e sent by the client after the TCP handshake complete and TLS session is re= sumed. >=20 > > re-direction may incur multiple roundtrips before DOTS signal can be > > conveyed to the DOTS server. >=20 > And what if this is necessary, for some reason ? What are those reasons and is there a way to avoid re-direction during atta= ck ? >=20 > We should not be enforcing operational practice straitjackets on DOTS use= rs > via arbitrary constraints, IMHO. >=20 > > How does the old DOTS server ensure that the new DOTS server to which > > the client is re-directed does not further re-direct the client (avoid > > endlessly re-directing the DOTS client) ? >=20 > It's quite possible that multiple redirects might be necessary. If multiple redirects happen then it potentially impacts the time to start = the DDOS mitigation. >=20 > Anything has the potential to be pathological, given human or machine/cod= e > error. That alone isn't a reason to disallow potentially operationally-u= seful > functionality, IMHO. How multiple re-directs are operationally useful is yet to be seen and disc= ussed in the WG ? -Tiru >=20 > ----------------------------------- > Roland Dobbins >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Tue Mar 22 22:12:08 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7EF512DB2E for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 22:12:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dzBxP0YabOHd for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 22:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86E4A12D0E5 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 22:12:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=285; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1458709926; x=1459919526; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=snKf0M/oPtPNUaFzhkzAoRXnXridaUhCa6qPN0u3+jY=; b=eTOmBWBtVs6ilDlbfFWhEocnISmfBbVRhxb4cFvA5T83RuwnBpEfTrDg epgG0OWkENBnHEB3cg+SsXQ6XpGOIIpvDhyqGGIHzdvMXSSaQiY9iT2bg B3Br3l4KcmWiF2wCoUe4Lq05QYG008XPVadyth4gyg8aTfCStREmGgexL E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D7AQCJJPJW/5RdJa1egzNTega6agENg?= =?us-ascii?q?XAXCoVsAoFIOBQBAQEBAQEBZCeEQQEBAQMBAQEBNzQQCwIBCA4oECcLJQIEARI?= =?us-ascii?q?IiBcIDsB9AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBEQSGHoREihIFl1gBjXyBVwGNO?= =?us-ascii?q?Y8GAR4BAUKDZWqJCH4BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,380,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="252449373" Received: from rcdn-core-12.cisco.com ([173.37.93.148]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 23 Mar 2016 05:12:05 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-016.cisco.com (xch-rcd-016.cisco.com [173.37.102.26]) by rcdn-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2N5C5E2025478 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 23 Mar 2016 05:12:05 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-RCD-016.cisco.com (173.37.102.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 00:12:05 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 00:12:04 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Robert Moskowitz , "gclark mti-systems.com" , "dots@ietf.org" , Roland Dobbins Thread-Topic: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS Thread-Index: AQHRhDym0qapxcUZckWqMQVn9bV0MJ9meJ0A///QW3CAAGR+gIAAAP2AgAACzwD//8qugA== Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 05:12:04 +0000 Message-ID: <0335c6107a704152a59d8004a1037227@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <56F144DE.1040100@htt-consult.com> <42d5273cb0224ff6ad5005b79a3807d7@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <322156233.32795.1458702629342.JavaMail.vpopmail@atl4oxapp106.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com> <56F20B80.9000903@htt-consult.com> In-Reply-To: <56F20B80.9000903@htt-consult.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.33.178] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 05:12:07 -0000 > UDP just means the programmer can get more wrong. Programmers have been using UDP for ages, many protocols run over UDP. -Tiru >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Tue Mar 22 23:54:40 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16D3012D821 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 23:54:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SxxJdsivh9n3 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 23:54:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-nor35.orange.com [80.12.70.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7435112D562 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2016 23:54:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr07.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.71]) by opfednr22.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id AFE14204F6; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:54:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.66]) by opfednr07.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 823A81C0063; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:54:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILMA1.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::95e2:eb4b:3053:fabf%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0279.002; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:54:36 +0100 From: To: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" , Roland Dobbins , dots Thread-Topic: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed Thread-Index: AdGErgSz8RUFCDA6TbiAce0Wi+n0NQAIVV4Q Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 06:54:35 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008D1C826@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <72449124df3847efaf7c00eeb7bb7517@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <72449124df3847efaf7c00eeb7bb7517@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.5] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 06:54:40 -0000 Hi Tiru,=20 Redirecting a client to another server is a useful functionality for variou= s operational reasons: e.g., the server instance is overloaded, redirect th= e client to a service-specific server (e.g., telephony), etc. How redirection is triggered, is policy-based and deployment-specific.=20 How redirection is actually designed, is out of scope of the requirements d= ocument. That discussion should be left to solution document(s), IMHO. In p= articular, how redirection should be designed to avoid spirals/loops, etc. = should be part of that space. Thank you.=20 Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Tirumaleswar Red= dy > (tireddy) > Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 23 mars 2016 03:45 > =C0=A0: Roland Dobbins; dots > Objet=A0: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins > > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:11 PM > > To: dots > > Subject: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed > > > > On 20 Mar 2016, at 21:44, Andrew Mortensen wrote: > > > 3. Whether reduced fate sharing warrants a requirement, as raised in > > > [3]. > > > > Avoidance of fate-sharing should be an operational recommendation, and > > the protocol itself and messaging should lend themselves to such to the > > degree that it is practicable, IMHO. >=20 > Why would the DOTS agents IP addresses/ports change during the attack ? > Though there is binding to a 5-tuple, (D)TLS allows session resumption. >=20 > > > > > 4. Whether a DOTS server SHOULD be able to redirect a DOTS client to > > > another DOTS server [4]. > > > > Yes, given proper bidirectional authentication, IMHO. >=20 > Redirecting the DOTS client to another DOTS server should be avoided > during attack time, re-direction may incur multiple roundtrips before DOT= S > signal can be conveyed to the DOTS server. > How does the old DOTS server ensure that the new DOTS server to which the > client is re-directed does not further re-direct the client > (avoid endlessly re-directing the DOTS client) ? >=20 > -Tiru >=20 > > > > ----------------------------------- > > Roland Dobbins > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Dots mailing list > > Dots@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Wed Mar 23 01:18:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F044512DA59 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 01:18:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lbp_IgUoguVp for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 01:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8493E12DA08 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 01:18:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3359; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1458721104; x=1459930704; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=1F9UvFuhrrn25gTlHsaYrHYzCFPNivCN8jwwjhAuIxU=; b=JL0V7s2UmivNGLsc8JshbLdVHJ74SWBKlnqRWThxpHUl0rzVx0RPa9eF 5Jpccet2ZMiWIc3ooAzZTzHccQF2VyjmmQG3BD2kXNlQkNu8OZwK3MfsT gOB5oTjNu1s661H0CyK+CGYCI+c3feX35thdqdAMHN/qEPBVK7Mv7kAFW k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D9AQAYUPJW/5pdJa1egzRTega6YgENg?= =?us-ascii?q?XAXCoVsAoE/OBQBAQEBAQEBZCeEQQEBAQMBAQEBaxcGAQgRBAEBAScuCxQJCQE?= =?us-ascii?q?EARIIE4gECA7AUQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQETBIYehESEJIVuBYdghhOJZ?= =?us-ascii?q?gGNfI8RjwYBHgEBQoNlaokNfgEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,381,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="252766837" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 23 Mar 2016 08:18:23 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com (xch-aln-018.cisco.com [173.36.7.28]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2N8INGT026547 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 23 Mar 2016 08:18:23 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com (173.36.7.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 03:18:22 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 03:18:22 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "Roland Dobbins" , dots Thread-Topic: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed Thread-Index: AdGE3I20Ih6WK0VRSWu2N+bV8yun6g== Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 08:18:22 +0000 Message-ID: <24eeb952829946f6893591afade4afb0@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.86.149] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 08:18:27 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 12:25 PM > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy); Roland Dobbins; dots > Subject: RE: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed >=20 > Hi Tiru, >=20 > Redirecting a client to another server is a useful functionality for vari= ous > operational reasons: e.g., the server instance is overloaded, redirect th= e > client to a service-specific server (e.g., telephony), etc. >=20 > How redirection is triggered, is policy-based and deployment-specific. >=20 > How redirection is actually designed, is out of scope of the requirements > document. That discussion should be left to solution document(s), IMHO. I= n > particular, how redirection should be designed to avoid spirals/loops, et= c. > should be part of that space. The points I raised in previous mails are not for the requirement draft. OP= -003 in the requirement draft already discusses re-direction. It is to star= t discussions on how to design re-directions for DOTS, impact of re-directi= on during attack, multiple re-directions, re-direction to DOTS server in an= other domain and other problems like loops .=20 -Tiru >=20 > Thank you. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De=A0: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Tirumaleswar > > Reddy > > (tireddy) > > Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 23 mars 2016 03:45 > > =C0=A0: Roland Dobbins; dots > > Objet=A0: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland > > > Dobbins > > > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:11 PM > > > To: dots > > > Subject: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed > > > > > > On 20 Mar 2016, at 21:44, Andrew Mortensen wrote: > > > > 3. Whether reduced fate sharing warrants a requirement, as raised > > > > in [3]. > > > > > > Avoidance of fate-sharing should be an operational recommendation, > > > and the protocol itself and messaging should lend themselves to such > > > to the degree that it is practicable, IMHO. > > > > Why would the DOTS agents IP addresses/ports change during the attack ? > > Though there is binding to a 5-tuple, (D)TLS allows session resumption. > > > > > > > > > 4. Whether a DOTS server SHOULD be able to redirect a DOTS client > > > > to another DOTS server [4]. > > > > > > Yes, given proper bidirectional authentication, IMHO. > > > > Redirecting the DOTS client to another DOTS server should be avoided > > during attack time, re-direction may incur multiple roundtrips before > > DOTS signal can be conveyed to the DOTS server. > > How does the old DOTS server ensure that the new DOTS server to which > > the client is re-directed does not further re-direct the client (avoid > > endlessly re-directing the DOTS client) ? > > > > -Tiru > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------- > > > Roland Dobbins > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Dots mailing list > > > Dots@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > _______________________________________________ > > Dots mailing list > > Dots@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Wed Mar 23 07:32:23 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D71E812D5B4 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:32:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 267ugvfLsnvq for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x22a.google.com (mail-pf0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E58F212D6A8 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id x3so30351581pfb.1 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:25:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=faW1QsEQqlInyfFnY73//12yn+w60Z91yNIn5EUFrJk=; b=dHu4vLFZQYMYWQONfl2q6vfNQJsdIaOzig4RRLIaTGAPsnvHdfvGipplrE0DnWCIGh iRDjQb3PVk/xT0l+2gql2mmGjPFc+3LSmY0qhPtXHTn7Opa60ECFhITBU0Ph+Qzq8ZrY qRqrQC/tKZo2YnHFxrCfLRHq/PIQkGWXpa+Ho= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=faW1QsEQqlInyfFnY73//12yn+w60Z91yNIn5EUFrJk=; b=OqtT3QF2qFT8YJd3VeCEaAczWngMO2nfeDDqrFYmp49d6SWCBFjwCv5XCjqZKLnwfB XKSyHr5m8LflzeC7j1XZ8xXZ3FZ5Z2xAV1CRDIhX8cisxeuwUIp8F6qlD9fNgIW5zGTl keFbBcp/5NIlLogO79poy5V+3Tb/8OJADylClQLdRFJRuNn9zLphzJCs/S/zNL+GlqEv 2u5jyxfWGUV5Ly/QYRAgW6Gk6AJtDzcE7BIozuUvgamqIZ+FmJe4ev7qthVOxBmCamwh 9kZ8CgqCT3EJl8FW9zWOH48c1rCn36DOexNwPI1CkDot2Xw5P3n/4bUaF6RcYmsYclfW Xh+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIEMZfpZoIy66bJa6umXARgBvp4dW3aKLPiyW0w8UK5fglOvLvcHMJmN9U+L+JoX4tF X-Received: by 10.98.65.215 with SMTP id g84mr4704118pfd.94.1458743118420; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.145] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id wb7sm4769511pab.3.2016.03.23.07.25.16 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:25:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: dots Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:25:13 +0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1833e1de0cb94fcfb5ba2f89812d6862@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <72449124df3847efaf7c00eeb7bb7517@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <6CCE4254-1E55-41D5-A299-52BB60F75C6B@arbor.net> <1833e1de0cb94fcfb5ba2f89812d6862@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 14:32:22 -0000 On 23 Mar 2016, at 12:07, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: > Security protocols are flexible to support session resumption where > client moves from one IP address to another for mobility. Right - which means this isn't a barrier to redirection. > Let's say if TCP is used for DOTS signaling channel, DOTS signal can > only be sent by the client after the TCP handshake complete and TLS > session is resumed. So? > What are those reasons and is there a way to avoid re-direction during > attack ? Mohamed already touched on some of them. > If multiple redirects happen then it potentially impacts the time to > start the DDOS mitigation. Yes, and . . . ? That's better than a mitigation not taking place at all. > How multiple re-directs are operationally useful is yet to be seen and > discussed in the WG ? How multiple re-directs are harmful, given the fact that everybody knows it will take a bit more time, has yet to be seen and discussed in the WG. MSSP can't handle the DOTS requests due to capacity constraints, and redirects to MSSP B. MSSP B is undergoing a maintenance window, and so redirects to MSSP. For example. Again, shackling DOTS users based upon arbitrary decisions of what constitutes allowable delay - and the delays in question are minuscule, in actual chronological time - is arrogating to ourselves operational decisions which the users ought to be able to make for themselves. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Wed Mar 23 07:32:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBEC312D6A3 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:32:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qP3FZLyg-xci for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x234.google.com (mail-pf0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3D1D12D712 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x234.google.com with SMTP id 4so30617649pfd.0 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:25:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=owfobZi0BBXGqpgQFvFEPatrgI7p1cWPWjfZw1jScMw=; b=J+u7TIoo2WrNxQLCgk1Nyzv1+6OIkCClzXWlm9+C17IWY3zFGuZemDN3GzTUxnzm6R 3Rf848N6xN2I+GMwh3k8ntVmCIm9Y/14tt8XQwlKHkNSawfRc5R+rbxoAf3sEXZ8QkUD AGtLJdwlk5QtsxqQY0MPsAHYxksuYaRvFVshM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=owfobZi0BBXGqpgQFvFEPatrgI7p1cWPWjfZw1jScMw=; b=BgBmeNEPtEFIn/VPKZG9Wf8iHpTb/RrIGAR/33DpbEAjzXtNCKrFkWG0lMyCHOKa0V sx/EyPfgUxOjtuDZPhVOJG+Jnd604f8BCo/4CAGkOkJpcfTDhQvlhC25y0U3WH115QHU Lc3Cxb0n31jQo0zD5bsSjmMlOOfctG1iJwCoBxquMaOq0Sj2bRRq8/9ANPBRQqArmYqI lf/ppbNsaTXpNDMDE8t9Q7SEjiGLSjOYVhRs7YENIYwgfdGTLmtTAewjhzu4jrWkqkaG ZUDzTnGgTh9qUlAmo0mZCWHYPZai4EcCrbXLxbBxVlJ50K0FF027ZOil6r5VHQ1LisK9 jLlA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJFcF7cQp8yrbX+F4n7mNqw1B+ztD7voxDu0jfcv3NxvW+9A35b18PRgl7TtSiFdWh2 X-Received: by 10.66.141.11 with SMTP id rk11mr4746285pab.75.1458743156557; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.145] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z13sm4763361pfi.5.2016.03.23.07.25.55 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:25:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: "dots@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:25:53 +0700 Message-ID: <46E1002E-AC97-4C53-9241-186E75BDED4C@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <2ec6bb97947c409cb656ca77d05977e0@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <56F144DE.1040100@htt-consult.com> <42d5273cb0224ff6ad5005b79a3807d7@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <2ec6bb97947c409cb656ca77d05977e0@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 14:32:52 -0000 On 23 Mar 2016, at 10:52, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: > Just like the WG discussed the reasons for picking UDP and TCP, other > transports needs more discussion on why it should be mandated by the > DOTS protocols. Concur 100%. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Wed Mar 23 07:33:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 005A112D755 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:33:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YLPi1JNInGSH for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x235.google.com (mail-pf0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88CCA12D7B4 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x235.google.com with SMTP id u190so30488602pfb.3 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:26:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=XIAImZtyP2IFiObHUgXikHQFrtvvSEoTaIo2WbVvkgo=; b=T1nbKeHiJkDm142u+LCj/VS2fMX6q8uAvO54c0m5BR08Hjo1Lta8XdzyVE73JsLODX dG4CjDNSDwDW/glxvcxpCyhJ94zXi9g0xXbOpm8Wq0DGjofiMaEO73N/FFP5m3NysuEG 1VQUTX/+uoCPzez3LW+CZCmWbMgtOd4EEvEC8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=XIAImZtyP2IFiObHUgXikHQFrtvvSEoTaIo2WbVvkgo=; b=gsJYGBnVhT5dyTQr+ZIWyhLYRMLqgcptMiMBtGi6BbdzOkKD2IC9S5ck6jOkJNQJdv sYLvqRx5k1zAv0tBUU00WNitxyH8weQQccWHKKbRbNZRBauLdMK0PGkBzCWXnzY++IXI vvEyLypW3us1s3thBpY/mskHeeqfj/HvVDeT0dPxCidr0GxnGerUEKaNvpIXTyPo1exk XQgsxVBbxfioCjDXaZw/BQ0IvTQ4vc2P00sIKd26BT0lN4/ib6HQux+FhkRVD2wIUVUW gGTBN1F8IGqYbP8NiYTqZo30UK44p2k9JG0Vw6BsBml2qw7FAm5xbYVR/+PTV9aFHLlr BVCA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKTZSMvMAZS3BLiITYRTdSfnKLbEfiNvigmSDDTrit2Do0yT/q0GTkw5Og3IP9E1t2M X-Received: by 10.98.79.203 with SMTP id f72mr4786754pfj.102.1458743212093; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.145] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q2sm4729748pfq.88.2016.03.23.07.26.50 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:26:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: "dots@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:26:48 +0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0335c6107a704152a59d8004a1037227@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <56F144DE.1040100@htt-consult.com> <42d5273cb0224ff6ad5005b79a3807d7@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <322156233.32795.1458702629342.JavaMail.vpopmail@atl4oxapp106.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com> <56F20B80.9000903@htt-consult.com> <0335c6107a704152a59d8004a1037227@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 14:33:41 -0000 On 23 Mar 2016, at 12:12, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: > Programmers have been using UDP for ages, many protocols run over UDP. Absolutely - including very demanding applications such as large, performance-sensitive multiplayer games. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Wed Mar 23 07:50:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9143B12D1DC for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:50:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H-yr71BrZaws for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4B3812D097 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 07:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B03CA621CE; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 10:49:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id R1Oj+ZJw+TYY; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 10:49:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CA2A2621CB; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 10:49:26 -0400 (EDT) To: Roland Dobbins , "dots@ietf.org" References: <56F144DE.1040100@htt-consult.com> <42d5273cb0224ff6ad5005b79a3807d7@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <322156233.32795.1458702629342.JavaMail.vpopmail@atl4oxapp106.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com> <56F20B80.9000903@htt-consult.com> <0335c6107a704152a59d8004a1037227@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <56F2ACF4.2070608@htt-consult.com> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 10:49:24 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 14:50:58 -0000 On 03/23/2016 10:26 AM, Roland Dobbins wrote: > On 23 Mar 2016, at 12:12, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: > >> Programmers have been using UDP for ages, many protocols run over UDP. > > Absolutely - including very demanding applications such as large, > performance-sensitive multiplayer games. And why communication components like RTP were developed to aid such programmers in dealing with all the things that need to be attended to. I remember what CuCme did before RED was developed. From nobody Wed Mar 23 09:24:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8056B12D73A for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:24:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sR_ONR4MPXB7 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76B0712D6D3 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:24:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2443; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1458750265; x=1459959865; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=h9Q3SIJY9TEtRKxOObFtPoI/baeUfjc9WjwQJ6EPIn8=; b=dN6egyB7PCGP2mxNMt1Jtu+KueQ/nciRzi5Xh6bbVcuKj+oE7gQTgGTT sbG0n1D5PvDFvv57URIU9bA0FhXkcYdgGiX20kq1V19XDpwFYI5OXKvrV UY6bH9609WUpWFFd2O0QJYpD06K7D1WEHuin6P7J1Iw2VRdp94/Cu5pJT c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AeAgD5wvJW/4UNJK1egzNTega6YQENg?= =?us-ascii?q?XAXCoVsAoE9OBQBAQEBAQEBZCeEQQEBAQMBAQEBNzQXBAIBCA4DBAEBAR4JByc?= =?us-ascii?q?LFAkIAQEEARIIiBcIDsEeAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBEQSGHoNFf4Qkh?= =?us-ascii?q?W4Fh2CPegGNfI8RjwYBHgEBQoNlaokNfgEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,383,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="252697925" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 23 Mar 2016 16:24:20 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-020.cisco.com (xch-aln-020.cisco.com [173.36.7.30]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2NGOKLT015222 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 23 Mar 2016 16:24:20 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-ALN-020.cisco.com (173.36.7.30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 11:24:19 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 11:24:19 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Roland Dobbins , dots Thread-Topic: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed Thread-Index: AdGErgSz8RUFCDA6TbiAce0Wi+n0NQALgDGAAAkgVjAADkx9gAAJb+GA Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 16:24:19 +0000 Message-ID: <6cad25b025184070bd2192fe6890a550@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <72449124df3847efaf7c00eeb7bb7517@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <6CCE4254-1E55-41D5-A299-52BB60F75C6B@arbor.net> <1833e1de0cb94fcfb5ba2f89812d6862@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.86.149] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 16:24:36 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 7:55 PM > To: dots > Subject: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed >=20 > On 23 Mar 2016, at 12:07, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: >=20 > > Security protocols are flexible to support session resumption where > > client moves from one IP address to another for mobility. >=20 > Right - which means this isn't a barrier to redirection. >=20 > > Let's say if TCP is used for DOTS signaling channel, DOTS signal can > > only be sent by the client after the TCP handshake complete and TLS > > session is resumed. >=20 > So? >=20 > > What are those reasons and is there a way to avoid re-direction during > > attack ? >=20 > Mohamed already touched on some of them. >=20 > > If multiple redirects happen then it potentially impacts the time to > > start the DDOS mitigation. >=20 > Yes, and . . . ? >=20 > That's better than a mitigation not taking place at all. >=20 > > How multiple re-directs are operationally useful is yet to be seen and > > discussed in the WG ? >=20 > How multiple re-directs are harmful, given the fact that everybody knows = it > will take a bit more time, has yet to be seen and discussed in the WG. >=20 > MSSP can't handle the DOTS requests due to capacity constraints, and > redirects to MSSP B. MSSP B is undergoing a maintenance window, and so > redirects to MSSP. For example. MSSP before re-directing to MSPP B can check if MSPP B can handle the attac= k or not and then re-direct (Just like CDN avoids multiple re-directions, = upstream CDN contacts multiple downstream CDN's to figure out the best one = to serve the content). >=20 > Again, shackling DOTS users based upon arbitrary decisions of what > constitutes allowable delay - and the delays in question are minuscule, i= n > actual chronological time - is arrogating to ourselves operational decisi= ons > which the users ought to be able to make for themselves. The problem is not just delay but also packet loss. The link is congested d= uring the attack and responses from the DOTS server could get lost. -Tiru >=20 > ----------------------------------- > Roland Dobbins >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Wed Mar 23 09:52:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F0CF12D754 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:52:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jm8WzGwcR5Xe for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8889712D785 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:52:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2582; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1458751929; x=1459961529; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=Tp843fRLI/aRWCXY8sPQuX1AxhRpGpYhuboDhVvMVfo=; b=Kt8fyV2AOhNiNlOHsPXk7r5349uUCV7fKOEH3ZKx9frzJ6+VhhfhgK6F 71UpjJmt6Dgnbyg5u2B90Ft1nuQCZaUweliToJXt9vVsv+oU4mxPt+B6J 2wz/6Dhv5cmMe3oUAC4fBd3lSy1Ps00TIg3b2yXMU6+Id9wq5uaURuJy9 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AdAgBHyfJW/5BdJa1egzNTega6YQENg?= =?us-ascii?q?XAdhXACgT04FAEBAQEBAQFkJ4RBAQEBBDpLBgEIDgMEAQEBHgk5FAkJAQQBEgi?= =?us-ascii?q?IHw7BJgEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBEgSGHoREhCSFbgWXWgGFcIgMjxGPB?= =?us-ascii?q?gEeAQFCggMZgUlqiQ1+AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,383,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="252864029" Received: from rcdn-core-8.cisco.com ([173.37.93.144]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 23 Mar 2016 16:52:08 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com (xch-rcd-017.cisco.com [173.37.102.27]) by rcdn-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2NGq8o8016795 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 23 Mar 2016 16:52:08 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 11:52:07 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 11:52:07 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Robert Moskowitz , Roland Dobbins , dots Thread-Topic: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed Thread-Index: AdGFJFBox/h8TEQIQrCLNRnBwaG1wg== Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 16:52:07 +0000 Message-ID: <6b732729914b4672bc5d52fff40a03b4@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.86.149] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 16:52:11 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Moskowitz [mailto:rgm-sec@htt-consult.com] > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 9:05 AM > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy); Roland Dobbins; dots > Subject: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 03/22/2016 10:45 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins > >> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:11 PM > >> To: dots > >> Subject: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed > >> > >> On 20 Mar 2016, at 21:44, Andrew Mortensen wrote: > >>> 3. Whether reduced fate sharing warrants a requirement, as raised in > >>> [3]. > >> Avoidance of fate-sharing should be an operational recommendation, > >> and the protocol itself and messaging should lend themselves to such > >> to the degree that it is practicable, IMHO. > > Why would the DOTS agents IP addresses/ports change during the attack ? > > Though there is binding to a 5-tuple, (D)TLS allows session resumption. >=20 > A mobile target, though how such a one can be targetted is interesting. > The attack would have to be against a whole range of addresses. Or more > likely a cable connection that due to the attack bounces and assigns a ne= w > address. That makes more sense. Perhaps the cable ISPs can add here. >=20 > > > >>> 4. Whether a DOTS server SHOULD be able to redirect a DOTS client to > >>> another DOTS server [4]. > >> Yes, given proper bidirectional authentication, IMHO. > > Redirecting the DOTS client to another DOTS server should be avoided > during attack time, re-direction may incur multiple roundtrips before DOT= S > signal can be conveyed to the DOTS server. > > How does the old DOTS server ensure that the new DOTS server to which > the client is re-directed does not further re-direct the client > > (avoid endlessly re-directing the DOTS client) ? >=20 > And as I said to you and Andy, how is the security state maintained? Is > it duplicated ahead of this event? Does a new security state need to be > negotiated at a time where such a negotiation is likely to fail? So I > also wonder how this works. Re-direction to another DOTS server in the same administrative domain is st= raight forward, (D)TLS session resumption https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc50= 77 will solve the problem. Re-direction to a DOTS server in another adminis= trative domain needs more thought (e.g. use OAuth to authorize the DOTS cli= ent to use the new DOTS server). -Tiru >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Mar 23 09:57:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B414012D740 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:57:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=verisign-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id arshto3O8BTH for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:57:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x263.google.com (mail-qg0-x263.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::263]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5264E12D170 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:57:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-x263.google.com with SMTP id c67so1575246qgc.0 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:57:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=verisign-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:subject:thread-topic:thread-index:date:message-id :references:in-reply-to:accept-language:content-language:user-agent :content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=rhff/W3Jbx4k84YtAdqquMRO0jV7KB0ApcVPKLQ3brI=; b=a2eHnqwXp4xceomIGOcuE3CiVJI5oiPmfKCnr17DL0FbIAqrKGuQFB7YB4u6URMcsY 641qK9ECp/9XJBnxEZuT+blBdwzqYCCTx8ts5ECDwmeB8UllJB/8pFg6V6lUlwK0dT6W TVaiJ28bmF7XUe6K41Mjm5jklO131mSGqOBVmAXlGr73kCO74NNjyk3ef8hFOYWX4f1S YpjkEg/jVZbg0AIbjjp4/+CcBU3vjGyUMQsHzf4dnprWhUbqHPTjo4bIOvmLQDxhkego dA/pkhcbusjS3EO7IJ5Xcmk1tIdzhtVVA+H6qKbIEhRpaS+r9kBrfhqxtr/fQopI1zuy Cnmg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:thread-topic:thread-index:date :message-id:references:in-reply-to:accept-language:content-language :user-agent:content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=rhff/W3Jbx4k84YtAdqquMRO0jV7KB0ApcVPKLQ3brI=; b=hnken5MWXkB2dyuyA74p8UMewyMr3IfOdEGuvwIjtju20ZfOrb8nRwTqCV9zoBQKQr M+KvnsZFqplzkuLm1HGlPhid1yH+Z41zWJewGFw7M25niyzd3U9Y/x4IZbNlQ5BmS5OD yPJy9EIIn5IalM6H38ifFqDlls3d/jB1bQQpkaByxYgu1tdgTd5B28FOOKjNrGfX2/0N ej+YqGK4wGRmkfwir+VnVA613+Y0LmFF9tDggWzDL4Muoup/2CHlNlyhv18sBxa7FK8K uomGMMG5JzBzFCXTXBLXAeBN0WjIUYjmiTqmXpAkwhyf7DNgQ/tgmsh4R7ZxctexM+Ep iTWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJ5U7gswN8wLgFLhFqjNMQzSxHnJSNLO5CGl8xp1sU80h69GXOnRRb0fEacifiKLBpfBATCxPkYRRtKDqbV/5f5tO9s X-Received: by 10.55.50.136 with SMTP id y130mr4879598qky.79.1458752249309; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brn1lxmailout01.verisign.com (brn1lxmailout01.verisign.com. [72.13.63.41]) by smtp-relay.gmail.com with ESMTPS id d123sm451267qka.12.2016.03.23.09.57.29 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:57:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Relaying-Domain: verisign.com Received: from BRN1WNEXCHM01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com (brn1wnexchm01 [10.173.152.255]) by brn1lxmailout01.verisign.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u2NGvSpr006944 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 23 Mar 2016 12:57:28 -0400 Received: from BRN1WNEXMBX01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([::1]) by BRN1WNEXCHM01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 12:57:27 -0400 From: "Teague, Nik" To: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" , Robert Moskowitz , Roland Dobbins , dots Thread-Topic: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed Thread-Index: AdGFJFBoNoNmTKLA6UqYbc3QDlHtzwAIkpIA Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 16:57:27 +0000 Message-ID: <6A8B7134-ACFA-4D59-A83E-1DB9CD619415@verisign.com> References: <6b732729914b4672bc5d52fff40a03b4@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <6b732729914b4672bc5d52fff40a03b4@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.160212 x-originating-ip: [10.173.152.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <96849501216B3443B2A94CBBFB25A6C4@verisign.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 16:57:32 -0000 T24gMjMvMDMvMjAxNiAxNjo1MiwgIkRvdHMgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIFRpcnVtYWxlc3dhciBSZWRk eSAodGlyZWRkeSkiIDxkb3RzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIHRpcmVkZHlA Y2lzY28uY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KDQo+Pj4NCj4+Pj4+IDQuIFdoZXRoZXIgYSBET1RTIHNlcnZl ciBTSE9VTEQgYmUgYWJsZSB0byByZWRpcmVjdCBhIERPVFMgY2xpZW50IHRvDQo+Pj4+PiBhbm90 aGVyIERPVFMgc2VydmVyIFs0XS4NCj4+Pj4gWWVzLCBnaXZlbiBwcm9wZXIgYmlkaXJlY3Rpb25h bCBhdXRoZW50aWNhdGlvbiwgSU1ITy4NCj4+PiBSZWRpcmVjdGluZyB0aGUgRE9UUyBjbGllbnQg dG8gYW5vdGhlciBET1RTIHNlcnZlciBzaG91bGQgYmUgYXZvaWRlZA0KPj5kdXJpbmcgYXR0YWNr IHRpbWUsIHJlLWRpcmVjdGlvbiBtYXkgaW5jdXIgbXVsdGlwbGUgcm91bmR0cmlwcyBiZWZvcmUg RE9UUw0KPj5zaWduYWwgY2FuIGJlIGNvbnZleWVkIHRvIHRoZSBET1RTIHNlcnZlci4NCj4+PiBI b3cgZG9lcyB0aGUgb2xkIERPVFMgc2VydmVyIGVuc3VyZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBuZXcgRE9UUyBzZXJ2 ZXIgdG8gd2hpY2gNCj4+dGhlIGNsaWVudCBpcyByZS1kaXJlY3RlZCBkb2VzIG5vdCBmdXJ0aGVy IHJlLWRpcmVjdCB0aGUgY2xpZW50DQo+Pj4gKGF2b2lkIGVuZGxlc3NseSByZS1kaXJlY3Rpbmcg dGhlIERPVFMgY2xpZW50KSA/DQo+PkFuZCBhcyBJIHNhaWQgdG8geW91IGFuZCBBbmR5LCBob3cg aXMgdGhlIHNlY3VyaXR5IHN0YXRlIG1haW50YWluZWQ/ICBJcw0KPj5pdCBkdXBsaWNhdGVkIGFo ZWFkIG9mIHRoaXMgZXZlbnQ/ICBEb2VzIGEgbmV3IHNlY3VyaXR5IHN0YXRlIG5lZWQgdG8gYmUN Cj4+bmVnb3RpYXRlZCBhdCBhIHRpbWUgd2hlcmUgc3VjaCBhIG5lZ290aWF0aW9uIGlzIGxpa2Vs eSB0byBmYWlsPyAgU28gSQ0KPj5hbHNvIHdvbmRlciBob3cgdGhpcyB3b3Jrcy4NCj4NCj5SZS1k aXJlY3Rpb24gdG8gYW5vdGhlciBET1RTIHNlcnZlciBpbiB0aGUgc2FtZSBhZG1pbmlzdHJhdGl2 ZSBkb21haW4gaXMgc3RyYWlnaHQgZm9yd2FyZCwgKEQpVExTIHNlc3Npb24gcmVzdW1wdGlvbiBo dHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvcmZjNTA3NyB3aWxsIHNvbHZlIHRoZSBwcm9ibGVt LiBSZS1kaXJlY3Rpb24gdG8gYSBET1RTIHNlcnZlciBpbiBhbm90aGVyIGFkbWluaXN0cmF0aXZl IGRvbWFpbiBuZWVkcyBtb3JlIHRob3VnaHQgKGUuZy4gdXNlIE9BdXRoIHRvIGF1dGhvcml6ZSB0 aGUgRE9UUyBjbGllbnQgdG8gdXNlIHRoZSBuZXcgRE9UUyBzZXJ2ZXIpLg0KDQpJIGNhbiBzZWUg dGhlIGNhc2UgZm9yIHJlZGlyZWN0aW9uIHdpdGhpbiB0aGUgc2FtZSBhZG1pbmlzdHJhdGl2ZSBk b21haW4gKGZvciBhbnkgbnVtYmVyIG9mIHJlYXNvbnMpLiAgDQoNClJlZGlyZWN0aW9uIGJldHdl ZW4gZG9tYWlucyB3b3VsZCBzZWVtIHRvIG1lIHRvIGJlIGJldHRlciBoYW5kbGVkIGJ5IGEgRE9U UyByZWxheS4NCg0KDQo= From nobody Wed Mar 23 10:19:39 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A268412D79F for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 10:19:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CrgEKp4JCPeX for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 10:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atl4mhob01.myregisteredsite.com (atl4mhob01.myregisteredsite.com [209.17.115.39]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 976BD12D781 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 10:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atl4oxapp106.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com ([10.30.71.143]) by atl4mhob01.myregisteredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id u2NHJX4p018045; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 13:19:33 -0400 Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 13:19:33 -0400 (EDT) From: "gclark mti-systems.com" To: Robert Moskowitz , dots@ietf.org, Roland Dobbins Message-ID: <2099689744.16085.1458753573220.JavaMail.vpopmail@atl4oxapp106.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com> In-Reply-To: <56F2ACF4.2070608@htt-consult.com> References: <56F144DE.1040100@htt-consult.com> <42d5273cb0224ff6ad5005b79a3807d7@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <322156233.32795.1458702629342.JavaMail.vpopmail@atl4oxapp106.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com> <56F20B80.9000903@htt-consult.com> <0335c6107a704152a59d8004a1037227@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <56F2ACF4.2070608@htt-consult.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.6.2-Rev35 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: "gclark mti-systems.com" List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 17:19:38 -0000 > On March 23, 2016 at 10:49 AM Robert Moskowitz > wrote: > > > > > On 03/23/2016 10:26 AM, Roland Dobbins wrote: > > On 23 Mar 2016, at 12:12, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: > > > >> Programmers have been using UDP for ages, many protocols run over UDP. > > > > Absolutely - including very demanding applications such as large, > > performance-sensitive multiplayer games. > > And why communication components like RTP were developed to aid such > programmers in dealing with all the things that need to be attended to. Donning my programmer hat for a moment, I find this conversation pointless. Speaking as a representative of my people, I can assure you that we are, in fact, quite capable of implementing things over UDP directly when we *determine there is a need to do so*. Alternatively, we programmers might decide to use RTP in certain situations *because it seems like the best choice*. Such things are not always straightforward decisions, and possible rationales for such decisions are not a thing I'm going to waste time discussing here. With that said, let's also not forget that networking is a way to shovel piles of bits from point A to point B. Standards (and IETF working groups, for that matter) don't exist to do anything with the bits: instead, the working groups primarily exist to make sure everybody agrees on a shovel. If someone wants to make a better shovel, fine ... but telling people they're too stupid to actually be using the shovel they've had and loved for years *might* not be the best way to go about things. As an aside, I'm really not sold on this whole session layer idea *as it relates to DOTS*. I don't disagree because it's necessarily bad (because I honestly haven't spent the cycles to evaluate in any kind of meaningful way), I disagree because I don't see a *shred* of operational experience that might *prove its necessity*. Why are we chunking things when we don't have things defined to be chunked? Why are we talking about compression when we don't know if anything actually *needs* to be compressed? -Gilbert From nobody Wed Mar 23 10:30:06 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12FA412D18F for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 10:30:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hA-mZH0WWks6 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 10:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C95212D14D for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 10:30:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2834; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1458754203; x=1459963803; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=JAr2UKD7dZPWDULYP27yDT0zMAs/hxXQAqEJ2U8RV0w=; b=Nk90zmdNjYle60lyLyN+pjHkQnI7fHlQ5Bytxiuj8b39g9di+KlJR9ah oG8nlQNjDUbOltJn8dMnvo1fMa/8uIHDEYJc4+k2nexKfYfNN9/huIya2 9+0+QrLDXWmdtbWMXq10koRGva48FGGfkYVVR/FH3Ozwty3TBubfHcUMg o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AfAgBe0vJW/4wNJK1egzNTega6YgENg?= =?us-ascii?q?XAjhWoCHIEhOBQBAQEBAQEBZCeEQQEBAQQjEVEEAgEIEQEDAQEBAgIjAwICAjA?= =?us-ascii?q?UAQIGCAEBBAESCIgfDrBIkGoBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQERBHyFIoREh?= =?us-ascii?q?CQugmqCVgWXWgGFcIgMgW2ETIhYjwYBHgEBQoIDGYFJagEBiQt+AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,383,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="252987815" Received: from alln-core-7.cisco.com ([173.36.13.140]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 23 Mar 2016 17:29:39 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-019.cisco.com (xch-rcd-019.cisco.com [173.37.102.29]) by alln-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2NHTcI3018030 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 23 Mar 2016 17:29:38 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-RCD-019.cisco.com (173.37.102.29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 12:29:38 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 12:29:38 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: "Teague, Nik" , Robert Moskowitz , Roland Dobbins , dots Thread-Topic: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed Thread-Index: AdGFJFBox/h8TEQIQrCLNRnBwaG1wgAKqymAAAnK4LA= Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 17:29:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6b732729914b4672bc5d52fff40a03b4@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <6A8B7134-ACFA-4D59-A83E-1DB9CD619415@verisign.com> In-Reply-To: <6A8B7134-ACFA-4D59-A83E-1DB9CD619415@verisign.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.86.149] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 17:30:06 -0000 PiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBUZWFndWUsIE5payBbbWFpbHRv Om50ZWFndWVAdmVyaXNpZ24uY29tXQ0KPiBTZW50OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIE1hcmNoIDIzLCAyMDE2 IDEwOjI3IFBNDQo+IFRvOiBUaXJ1bWFsZXN3YXIgUmVkZHkgKHRpcmVkZHkpOyBSb2JlcnQgTW9z a293aXR6OyBSb2xhbmQgRG9iYmluczsgZG90cw0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW0RvdHNdIHJlcXVp cmVtZW50cyBjbGFyaWZpY2F0aW9ucyBuZWVkZWQNCj4gDQo+IE9uIDIzLzAzLzIwMTYgMTY6NTIs ICJEb3RzIG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiBUaXJ1bWFsZXN3YXIgUmVkZHkgKHRpcmVkZHkpIg0KPiA8ZG90 cy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnIG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiB0aXJlZGR5QGNpc2NvLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6 DQo+IA0KPiANCj4gPj4+DQo+ID4+Pj4+IDQuIFdoZXRoZXIgYSBET1RTIHNlcnZlciBTSE9VTEQg YmUgYWJsZSB0byByZWRpcmVjdCBhIERPVFMgY2xpZW50DQo+ID4+Pj4+IHRvIGFub3RoZXIgRE9U UyBzZXJ2ZXIgWzRdLg0KPiA+Pj4+IFllcywgZ2l2ZW4gcHJvcGVyIGJpZGlyZWN0aW9uYWwgYXV0 aGVudGljYXRpb24sIElNSE8uDQo+ID4+PiBSZWRpcmVjdGluZyB0aGUgRE9UUyBjbGllbnQgdG8g YW5vdGhlciBET1RTIHNlcnZlciBzaG91bGQgYmUgYXZvaWRlZA0KPiA+PmR1cmluZyBhdHRhY2sg dGltZSwgcmUtZGlyZWN0aW9uIG1heSBpbmN1ciBtdWx0aXBsZSByb3VuZHRyaXBzIGJlZm9yZQ0K PiA+PkRPVFMgc2lnbmFsIGNhbiBiZSBjb252ZXllZCB0byB0aGUgRE9UUyBzZXJ2ZXIuDQo+ID4+ PiBIb3cgZG9lcyB0aGUgb2xkIERPVFMgc2VydmVyIGVuc3VyZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBuZXcgRE9UUyBz ZXJ2ZXIgdG8NCj4gPj4+IHdoaWNoDQo+ID4+dGhlIGNsaWVudCBpcyByZS1kaXJlY3RlZCBkb2Vz IG5vdCBmdXJ0aGVyIHJlLWRpcmVjdCB0aGUgY2xpZW50DQo+ID4+PiAoYXZvaWQgZW5kbGVzc2x5 IHJlLWRpcmVjdGluZyB0aGUgRE9UUyBjbGllbnQpID8NCj4gPj5BbmQgYXMgSSBzYWlkIHRvIHlv dSBhbmQgQW5keSwgaG93IGlzIHRoZSBzZWN1cml0eSBzdGF0ZSBtYWludGFpbmVkPw0KPiA+Pklz IGl0IGR1cGxpY2F0ZWQgYWhlYWQgb2YgdGhpcyBldmVudD8gIERvZXMgYSBuZXcgc2VjdXJpdHkg c3RhdGUgbmVlZA0KPiA+PnRvIGJlIG5lZ290aWF0ZWQgYXQgYSB0aW1lIHdoZXJlIHN1Y2ggYSBu ZWdvdGlhdGlvbiBpcyBsaWtlbHkgdG8gZmFpbD8NCj4gPj5TbyBJIGFsc28gd29uZGVyIGhvdyB0 aGlzIHdvcmtzLg0KPiA+DQo+ID5SZS1kaXJlY3Rpb24gdG8gYW5vdGhlciBET1RTIHNlcnZlciBp biB0aGUgc2FtZSBhZG1pbmlzdHJhdGl2ZSBkb21haW4gaXMNCj4gc3RyYWlnaHQgZm9yd2FyZCwg KEQpVExTIHNlc3Npb24gcmVzdW1wdGlvbg0KPiBodHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwv cmZjNTA3NyB3aWxsIHNvbHZlIHRoZSBwcm9ibGVtLiBSZS1kaXJlY3Rpb24gdG8gYQ0KPiBET1RT IHNlcnZlciBpbiBhbm90aGVyIGFkbWluaXN0cmF0aXZlIGRvbWFpbiBuZWVkcyBtb3JlIHRob3Vn aHQgKGUuZy4gdXNlDQo+IE9BdXRoIHRvIGF1dGhvcml6ZSB0aGUgRE9UUyBjbGllbnQgdG8gdXNl IHRoZSBuZXcgRE9UUyBzZXJ2ZXIpLg0KPiANCj4gSSBjYW4gc2VlIHRoZSBjYXNlIGZvciByZWRp cmVjdGlvbiB3aXRoaW4gdGhlIHNhbWUgYWRtaW5pc3RyYXRpdmUgZG9tYWluIChmb3INCj4gYW55 IG51bWJlciBvZiByZWFzb25zKS4NCj4gDQo+IFJlZGlyZWN0aW9uIGJldHdlZW4gZG9tYWlucyB3 b3VsZCBzZWVtIHRvIG1lIHRvIGJlIGJldHRlciBoYW5kbGVkIGJ5IGENCj4gRE9UUyByZWxheS4N Cg0KQ2FuIHlvdSBwbGVhc2UgY2xhcmlmeSBob3cgcmUtZGlyZWN0aW9uIHdpbGwgYmUgcGVyZm9y bWVkIGJ5IHRoZSBET1RTIHJlbGF5LCBkb24ndCBzZWUgRE9UUyByZWxheSB1c2VkIGluIFJlY3Vy c2l2ZSBTaWduYWxpbmcgZm9yIHJlLWRpcmVjdGlvbiBodHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0 bWwvZHJhZnQtbW9ydGVuc2VuLWRvdHMtYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLTAwI3NlY3Rpb24tNC4yLjQuDQoN Ci1UaXJ1DQoNCj4gDQo+DQo= From nobody Wed Mar 23 10:34:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D36D912D1C0 for ; 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[72.13.63.42]) by smtp-relay.gmail.com with ESMTPS id d123sm472462qka.12.2016.03.23.10.34.39 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 23 Mar 2016 10:34:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Relaying-Domain: verisign.com Received: from BRN1WNEXCHM01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com (brn1wnexchm01 [10.173.152.255]) by brn1lxmailout02.verisign.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u2NHYd1I009427 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 23 Mar 2016 13:34:39 -0400 Received: from BRN1WNEXMBX01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([::1]) by BRN1WNEXCHM01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 13:34:38 -0400 From: "Teague, Nik" To: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" , Robert Moskowitz , Roland Dobbins , dots Thread-Topic: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed Thread-Index: AdGFJFBoNoNmTKLA6UqYbc3QDlHtzwAIkpIAAAEf5AAAACyOgA== Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 17:34:37 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6b732729914b4672bc5d52fff40a03b4@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <6A8B7134-ACFA-4D59-A83E-1DB9CD619415@verisign.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.160212 x-originating-ip: [10.173.152.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <39D5EC3DACD18F41BA06E8EE00F58CCA@verisign.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 17:34:44 -0000 T24gMjMvMDMvMjAxNiAxNzoyOSwgIlRpcnVtYWxlc3dhciBSZWRkeSAodGlyZWRkeSkiIDx0aXJl ZGR5QGNpc2NvLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCg0KPj4tLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0K Pj5Gcm9tOiBUZWFndWUsIE5payBbbWFpbHRvOm50ZWFndWVAdmVyaXNpZ24uY29tXQ0KPj5TZW50 OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIE1hcmNoIDIzLCAyMDE2IDEwOjI3IFBNDQo+PlRvOiBUaXJ1bWFsZXN3YXIg UmVkZHkgKHRpcmVkZHkpOyBSb2JlcnQgTW9za293aXR6OyBSb2xhbmQgRG9iYmluczsgZG90cw0K Pj5TdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW0RvdHNdIHJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyBjbGFyaWZpY2F0aW9ucyBuZWVkZWQN Cj4+T24gMjMvMDMvMjAxNiAxNjo1MiwgIkRvdHMgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIFRpcnVtYWxlc3dhciBS ZWRkeSAodGlyZWRkeSkiDQo+Pjxkb3RzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIHRp cmVkZHlAY2lzY28uY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCj4+Pj4+DQo+Pj4+Pj4+IDQuIFdoZXRoZXIgYSBET1RT IHNlcnZlciBTSE9VTEQgYmUgYWJsZSB0byByZWRpcmVjdCBhIERPVFMgY2xpZW50DQo+Pj4+Pj4+ IHRvIGFub3RoZXIgRE9UUyBzZXJ2ZXIgWzRdLg0KPj4+Pj4+IFllcywgZ2l2ZW4gcHJvcGVyIGJp ZGlyZWN0aW9uYWwgYXV0aGVudGljYXRpb24sIElNSE8uDQo+Pj4+PiBSZWRpcmVjdGluZyB0aGUg RE9UUyBjbGllbnQgdG8gYW5vdGhlciBET1RTIHNlcnZlciBzaG91bGQgYmUgYXZvaWRlZA0KPj4+ PmR1cmluZyBhdHRhY2sgdGltZSwgcmUtZGlyZWN0aW9uIG1heSBpbmN1ciBtdWx0aXBsZSByb3Vu ZHRyaXBzIGJlZm9yZQ0KPj4+PkRPVFMgc2lnbmFsIGNhbiBiZSBjb252ZXllZCB0byB0aGUgRE9U UyBzZXJ2ZXIuDQo+Pj4+PiBIb3cgZG9lcyB0aGUgb2xkIERPVFMgc2VydmVyIGVuc3VyZSB0aGF0 IHRoZSBuZXcgRE9UUyBzZXJ2ZXIgdG8NCj4+Pj4+IHdoaWNoDQo+Pj4+dGhlIGNsaWVudCBpcyBy ZS1kaXJlY3RlZCBkb2VzIG5vdCBmdXJ0aGVyIHJlLWRpcmVjdCB0aGUgY2xpZW50DQo+Pj4+PiAo YXZvaWQgZW5kbGVzc2x5IHJlLWRpcmVjdGluZyB0aGUgRE9UUyBjbGllbnQpID8NCj4+Pj5BbmQg YXMgSSBzYWlkIHRvIHlvdSBhbmQgQW5keSwgaG93IGlzIHRoZSBzZWN1cml0eSBzdGF0ZSBtYWlu dGFpbmVkPw0KPj4+PklzIGl0IGR1cGxpY2F0ZWQgYWhlYWQgb2YgdGhpcyBldmVudD8gIERvZXMg YSBuZXcgc2VjdXJpdHkgc3RhdGUgbmVlZA0KPj4+PnRvIGJlIG5lZ290aWF0ZWQgYXQgYSB0aW1l IHdoZXJlIHN1Y2ggYSBuZWdvdGlhdGlvbiBpcyBsaWtlbHkgdG8gZmFpbD8NCj4+Pj5TbyBJIGFs c28gd29uZGVyIGhvdyB0aGlzIHdvcmtzLg0KPj4+DQo+Pj5SZS1kaXJlY3Rpb24gdG8gYW5vdGhl ciBET1RTIHNlcnZlciBpbiB0aGUgc2FtZSBhZG1pbmlzdHJhdGl2ZSBkb21haW4gaXMNCj4+c3Ry YWlnaHQgZm9yd2FyZCwgKEQpVExTIHNlc3Npb24gcmVzdW1wdGlvbg0KPj5odHRwczovL3Rvb2xz LmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvcmZjNTA3NyB3aWxsIHNvbHZlIHRoZSBwcm9ibGVtLiBSZS1kaXJlY3Rp b24gdG8gYQ0KPj5ET1RTIHNlcnZlciBpbiBhbm90aGVyIGFkbWluaXN0cmF0aXZlIGRvbWFpbiBu ZWVkcyBtb3JlIHRob3VnaHQgKGUuZy4gdXNlDQo+Pk9BdXRoIHRvIGF1dGhvcml6ZSB0aGUgRE9U UyBjbGllbnQgdG8gdXNlIHRoZSBuZXcgRE9UUyBzZXJ2ZXIpLg0KPj5JIGNhbiBzZWUgdGhlIGNh c2UgZm9yIHJlZGlyZWN0aW9uIHdpdGhpbiB0aGUgc2FtZSBhZG1pbmlzdHJhdGl2ZSBkb21haW4g KGZvcg0KPj5hbnkgbnVtYmVyIG9mIHJlYXNvbnMpLg0KPj5SZWRpcmVjdGlvbiBiZXR3ZWVuIGRv bWFpbnMgd291bGQgc2VlbSB0byBtZSB0byBiZSBiZXR0ZXIgaGFuZGxlZCBieSBhDQo+PkRPVFMg cmVsYXkuDQo+DQo+Q2FuIHlvdSBwbGVhc2UgY2xhcmlmeSBob3cgcmUtZGlyZWN0aW9uIHdpbGwg YmUgcGVyZm9ybWVkIGJ5IHRoZSBET1RTIHJlbGF5LCBkb24ndCBzZWUgRE9UUyByZWxheSB1c2Vk IGluIFJlY3Vyc2l2ZSBTaWduYWxpbmcgZm9yIHJlLWRpcmVjdGlvbiBodHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmll dGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtbW9ydGVuc2VuLWRvdHMtYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLTAwI3NlY3Rpb24t NC4yLjQuDQoNCk15IHRleHQgd2FzbuKAmXQgY2xlYXIuDQoNCkkgbWVhbnQgdGhhdCByYXRoZXIg dGhhbiByZWRpcmVjdGluZyBiZXR3ZWVuIGRvbWFpbnMgLSByZWxheWluZyBiZXR3ZWVuIGRvbWFp bnMgd291bGQgYmUgYSBtb3JlIHN1aXRhYmxlIHByb3Bvc2l0aW9uLg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Wed Mar 23 11:01:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED55C12D0FC for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 11:01:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mc129H2yJWY5 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 11:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FFEE12D0EF for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 11:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A30E62214; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 14:01:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id v+K595gmnnVF; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 14:01:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5AD3C62182; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 14:01:06 -0400 (EDT) To: "gclark mti-systems.com" , dots@ietf.org, Roland Dobbins References: <56F144DE.1040100@htt-consult.com> <42d5273cb0224ff6ad5005b79a3807d7@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <322156233.32795.1458702629342.JavaMail.vpopmail@atl4oxapp106.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com> <56F20B80.9000903@htt-consult.com> <0335c6107a704152a59d8004a1037227@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <56F2ACF4.2070608@htt-consult.com> <2099689744.16085.1458753573220.JavaMail.vpopmail@atl4oxapp106.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com> From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <56F2D9DF.8020907@htt-consult.com> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 14:01:03 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2099689744.16085.1458753573220.JavaMail.vpopmail@atl4oxapp106.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 18:01:19 -0000 On 03/23/2016 01:19 PM, gclark mti-systems.com wrote: >> On March 23, 2016 at 10:49 AM Robert Moskowitz >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On 03/23/2016 10:26 AM, Roland Dobbins wrote: >>> On 23 Mar 2016, at 12:12, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: >>> >>>> Programmers have been using UDP for ages, many protocols run over UDP. >>> Absolutely - including very demanding applications such as large, >>> performance-sensitive multiplayer games. >> And why communication components like RTP were developed to aid such >> programmers in dealing with all the things that need to be attended to. > Donning my programmer hat for a moment, I find this conversation pointless. > Speaking as a representative of my people, I can assure you that we are, in > fact, quite capable of implementing things over UDP directly when we *determine > there is a need to do so*. Alternatively, we programmers might decide to use > RTP in certain situations *because it seems like the best choice*. Such things > are not always straightforward decisions, and possible rationales for such > decisions are not a thing I'm going to waste time discussing here. > > With that said, let's also not forget that networking is a way to shovel piles > of bits from point A to point B. Standards (and IETF working groups, for that > matter) don't exist to do anything with the bits: instead, the working groups > primarily exist to make sure everybody agrees on a shovel. If someone wants to > make a better shovel, fine ... but telling people they're too stupid to actually > be using the shovel they've had and loved for years *might* not be the best way > to go about things. > > As an aside, I'm really not sold on this whole session layer idea *as it relates > to DOTS*. I don't disagree because it's necessarily bad (because I honestly > haven't spent the cycles to evaluate in any kind of meaningful way), I disagree > because I don't see a *shred* of operational experience that might *prove its > necessity*. Why are we chunking things when we don't have things defined to be > chunked? Why are we talking about compression when we don't know if anything > actually *needs* to be compressed? Just to the compression point. Compression is in the SLS design as some uses, like structured xml like in NETCONF is very compressable. Odds are that DOTS will use a compact message structure that will not need compressing. But the compression service, that was designed for use within ESP back in the late 90s is very adaptive and figures out what is and not compressable. Today, it is not much used but it is a direct way to deal with structured xml over constrained communications. It is optional. Got to run for a while... From nobody Wed Mar 23 13:24:56 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 027FE12D8A8 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 13:24:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.231 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.231 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qzFCzPlBkvfn for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 13:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F23A12D8AA for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 13:24:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CLE13798; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:24:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML701-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.175) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:24:33 +0000 Received: from DFWEML501-MBB.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.179]) by dfweml701-cah.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.175]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 13:24:28 -0700 From: Linda Dunbar To: Robert Moskowitz , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS Thread-Index: AQHRhDyoUi+XQweVm06XxEmNTrN3D59neF1A Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:24:27 +0000 Message-ID: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657E60F42@dfweml501-mbb> References: <56F144DE.1040100@htt-consult.com> In-Reply-To: <56F144DE.1040100@htt-consult.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.192.11.129] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020201.56F2FB83.00E3, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 34c145882dfb5e522a00cca8324d416f Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:24:55 -0000 Robert,=20 A couple of questions for SSLS & GPcomp: - What data will GPcomp will compress? The first hop of any end node is Eth= ernet, which has 64 minimum bytes, with 46 bytes payload.=20 The minimum IP packet header has 20 bytes. You can't really compress the he= ader, can you?=20 If the signaling is compact, a few bytes, the compression can't really get = much value.=20 - What is the relationship among SSE, SSLS, GPcomp?=20 Thanks, Linda=20 -----Original Message----- From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Moskowitz Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 8:13 AM To: dots@ietf.org Subject: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS I find the DOTS requirements for message transport interesting and somewhat= unique: 1) Secure, of course. 2) Perform well in the face of high congestion, typically on the=20 receive link. 3) Bi-directional. Actually tightly linked uni-directional flows. That is peered more than client/server (despite clear cleint/serve= r roles). 4) Reduce communication stack fate-sharing to reduce attack surface. 5) Easily restartable during an attack. (recovery after agent=20 failure/reboot) I can, and will if called on it, go through my logic in saying that TLS=20 over TCP is not a good tool and even DTLS over UDP misses the mark. ESP=20 in transport mode comes close, but we can do better. I have put this in: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02.txt DOTS Secure Session Layer Services This introduces a real session layer, something really not present in=20 the IETF stack, that provides a set of services. SSLS and its services=20 are laid out in: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hares-i2nsf-ssls-00.txt Sue (and I) put the design for SSLS in i2nsf, as it is broadly=20 applicable in a number of areas under i2nsf. This includes i2rs and=20 what I have called firstMILE (more on this shortly oer on MILE list). Two other drafts that fit into this architecture are: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-moskowitz-sse-03.txt and https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-moskowitz-gpcomp-00.txt SSLS (and SSE and GPComp) can use either IKEv2 or HIPv2 (or HIP-DEX) as=20 the KMP to establish paired, tightly coupled uni-directional Security=20 Associations. By operating above the transport (TCP,UDP, SCTP, SMS, etc.) the security=20 state is independent of transport setup and teardown. SLS can even=20 choose which transport to use under whatever knowledge it has of the=20 condition and needs of the time. It can support multiple, simultaneous,=20 communication channels (fully leveraging SCTP for i2rs). The work on SLS is not done. A few of us have been working on it for a=20 year, but only recently have the pieces fallen together. SSE is ESP=20 moved up the stack and I know of one non-public use of it. GPComp is=20 IPCOMP moved up the stack and knowledge of which compression algorithm=20 not advertised in each datagram. Those are really the easy parts. The=20 KMP part is not a stretch. Both IKE and HIP are higher layer KMPs and=20 can be set up to be called as needed. But some work is needed still. SLS is the new component. The i2nsf-ssls draft needs clean up; I expect=20 it to be further along by IETF (though not postable). SO..... I open the floor to discussion. I would be interested in how others see using existing communication=20 services to meet the DOTS requirements. I am interested in how others see SLS and particularly SSLS and its use=20 for DOTS. I have a slot in the meeting, but I hope by that friday we=20 have shaped some positions on this area. Robert Moskowitz _______________________________________________ Dots mailing list Dots@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Wed Mar 23 17:28:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2912712D11D for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 17:28:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.53 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.53 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Wpp8gl7vX5X for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 17:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB6A312D112 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 17:28:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=10098; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1458779327; x=1459988927; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id: references:to; bh=ALbF8Fe0IgLTM3ZUztk6tjXnEZfnLVqhpQgxgi0GfqY=; b=i2vcd9O5GdLzaY4FkvRfChfxeDe0vQDqrUhUZvRSxvtkxEU9RlvMUGNC DYazyMJVUqkqa8jnU9n7UCEkPZWYVwfDuF1uo8cqRiAl3p2jdNN7x6rX1 TBDr0IjwXiVpnwZMC15mMJGHd6KocFzJnIjENmbC9a2urhmVFd4NrF0cG M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DPAgC2M/NW/5FdJa1egzNTeoJ2snuEb?= =?us-ascii?q?gENgXAXAQuFagKBQzgUAQEBAQEBAWQnhEEBAQECAQEBAQEJF0sJAhAJAhgnAwI?= =?us-ascii?q?CJx8RBhMJiBYIDpMPnReQdQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARWGHoFzglGEF?= =?us-ascii?q?g5FglMrgisFjTt0iSuFcYgTgWZNg3+DBIVUhg6IeQ8PAQFCgjCBVRwuAYhPgTs?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,383,1454976000"; d="scan'208,217";a="253120507" Received: from rcdn-core-9.cisco.com ([173.37.93.145]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 24 Mar 2016 00:28:46 +0000 Received: from [10.24.126.45] ([10.24.126.45]) (authenticated bits=0) by rcdn-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2O0SifB011634 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 24 Mar 2016 00:28:45 GMT Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7ACF53F9-2E6A-4BFE-8516-FFB46AD0D980" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: =?utf-8?Q?=F0=9F=94=93Dan_Wing?= In-Reply-To: <56F03684.7060207@inria.fr> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 17:28:44 -0700 Message-Id: <195A2FF3-8EBC-43D0-94FA-7302ECE12635@cisco.com> References: <20160321175551.31929.22662.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56F03684.7060207@inria.fr> To: =?utf-8?Q?J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me_Fran=C3=A7ois?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) X-Authenticated-User: dwing Archived-At: Cc: "Marco Davids \(SIDN\)" , Giovane Moura , dots@ietf.org, Abdelkader Lahmadi Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 00:28:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7ACF53F9-2E6A-4BFE-8516-FFB46AD0D980 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 21-Mar-2016 10:59 am, J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me Fran=C3=A7ois = wrote:=20 > Dear all, >=20 > Please find a new draft proposing an IPv6 Hop-by-Hop option for = delivering DOTS signal. > All comments are welcome. IPv6 Extensions Headers, themselves, are often rate-limited or dropped = entirely, reference https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gont-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-in-real-world http://www.iepg.org/2014-03-02-ietf89/fgont-iepg-ietf89-eh-update.pdf While there might be agreement to not drop such packets over a link or = over an ISP access network, some DOTS deployment models have the DOTS = server on the Internet (e.g., cloud-based DDoS mitigation) where such = agreements don't (can't) exist. While using v6 for this sort of piggybacked DOTS message is admirable, = it is limited to networks where the DOTS client, DOTS server, = intervening network, and user traffic (on which to piggyback) are all = using IPv6 during the attack. Finally, such piggybacked messages seem difficult to authenticate. -d >=20 > Thanks, > J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me >=20 >=20 > -------- Message transf=C3=A9r=C3=A9 -------- > Sujet : New Version Notification for = draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00.txt > Date : Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:55:51 -0700 > De : internet-drafts@ietf.org > Pour : Jerome Francois = , Abdelkader Lahmadi = >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Jerome Francois and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option > Revision: 00 > Title: IPv6 DOTS Signal Option > Document date: 2016-03-21 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 13 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-optio= n-00.txt = > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option/ = = > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00 = >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > This document describes a delivery mechanism based on the IPv6 Hop- > by-Hop options extension header type to carry a DOTS client signal > message over a congested network due to a DDoS attack. The = specified > mechanism allows the DOTS client signal message to be included = using > an opportunistic way in outgoing IPv6 packets traveling then = through > the network to reach a DOTS server or relay. >=20 >=20 > = =20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots --Apple-Mail=_7ACF53F9-2E6A-4BFE-8516-FFB46AD0D980 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On 21-Mar-2016 10:59 am, J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me = Fran=C3=A7ois <jerome.francois@inria.fr> wrote:
=20
Dear all,

Please find a new draft proposing an IPv6 Hop-by-Hop option for delivering DOTS signal.
All comments are welcome.

IPv6 = Extensions Headers, themselves, are often rate-limited or dropped = entirely, reference

While there might be = agreement to not drop such packets over a link or over an ISP access = network, some DOTS deployment models have the DOTS server on the = Internet (e.g., cloud-based DDoS mitigation) where such agreements don't = (can't) exist.

While using v6 for = this sort of piggybacked DOTS message is admirable, it is limited to = networks where the DOTS client, DOTS server, intervening network, and = user traffic (on which to piggyback) are all using IPv6 during the = attack.

Finally, such piggybacked = messages seem difficult to authenticate.

-d



Thanks,
J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me


-------- Message transf=C3=A9r=C3=A9 -------- =
Sujet : New Version Notification for draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00.txt
Date : Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:55:51 -0700
De : internet-drafts@ietf.org
Pour : Jerome Francois <jerome.francois@inria.fr><= /a>, Abdelkader Lahmadi <abdelkader.lahmadi@loria.f= r> 


A new version of I-D, =
draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Jerome Francois and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option
Revision:	00
Title:		IPv6 DOTS Signal Option
Document date:	2016-03-21
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		13
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-francois-ipv6=
-dots-signal-option-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-o=
ption/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00=



Abstract:
   This document describes a delivery mechanism based on the IPv6 Hop-
   by-Hop options extension header type to carry a DOTS client signal
   message over a congested network due to a DDoS attack. The specified
   mechanism allows the DOTS client signal message to be included using
   an opportunistic way in outgoing IPv6 packets traveling then through
   the network to reach a DOTS server or relay.


                                                                         =
        =20


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


_______________________________________________
Dots = mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots


= --Apple-Mail=_7ACF53F9-2E6A-4BFE-8516-FFB46AD0D980-- From nobody Wed Mar 23 17:59:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B97C12D55F for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 17:59:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.53 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.53 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id juCSNIXHb_Lx for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 17:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E927E12D1C1 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 17:59:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=10124; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1458781194; x=1459990794; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id: references:to; bh=fe4vmorYNVoiduUNHOMco7lsk0VjHY24yIKxIAu987g=; b=WcATbufhCSa0wdz4SN2QiMiUJxh01D4uTIRWsqczOXc1lI4mP4keZ1SE MPzIpLmiSbq5Lp79MGT3MkKf3TuqPRdotP7/d2fW1/t4MbzbN66wMYkxw phMqmaKm8yl0mbBExKLFVV4gC80L0Qw8K5t8wXStc/Ge5lEw/IZ98zHS7 M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BeAgDkOvNW/4kNJK1egzNTerVxhG4BD?= =?us-ascii?q?YFwFwEJhWwCgUM4FAEBAQEBAQFkJ4RBAQEBBAEBAWsJAhALDgMDAQIBJwcnHwk?= =?us-ascii?q?IBhMbiAwOwRoBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEVhh6Bc4JRhFyDC4IrBYdch?= =?us-ascii?q?V90PYhuhXGIE4FmTYN/gwSFVI8HDw8BAUKCAByBaRwuAYoKAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,383,1454976000"; d="scan'208,217";a="253126987" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 24 Mar 2016 00:59:53 +0000 Received: from [10.24.126.45] ([10.24.126.45]) (authenticated bits=0) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2O0xqPB019860 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 24 Mar 2016 00:59:53 GMT Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_085E2572-66D4-405E-BF6B-57315BE6CC5B" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: =?utf-8?Q?=F0=9F=94=93Dan_Wing?= In-Reply-To: <56F040DD.9020700@htt-consult.com> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 17:59:52 -0700 Message-Id: <2F7C780F-B325-4FAD-B46B-EBC5A97A7181@cisco.com> References: <56F040DD.9020700@htt-consult.com> To: Robert Moskowitz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) X-Authenticated-User: dwing Archived-At: Cc: "dots@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 00:59:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_085E2572-66D4-405E-BF6B-57315BE6CC5B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 21-Mar-2016 11:43 am, Robert Moskowitz = wrote:=20 > For my agenda item on=20 >=20 > Introducing session layer considerations >=20 > Please see the following draft. There are a number of 'embedded' = drafts to work through to get the whole story. I will start a discuss = on this tomorrow on the list. If we need fragmentation support, a fragmentation layer on top of DTLS = would serve us better than SSLS. DTLS already handles fragmentation for = its own handshakes (similar to IKE's RFC7383), leaving us with solving = the fragmentation/reassembly. I see both draft-fossati-dtls-over-gsm-sms = (expired) and draft-hartke-dice-practical-issues (expired) explored the = problem and some solutions with small-MTU networks with UDP packets. But back to requirements for a moment: what is the minimum MTU we need = DOTS signaling to be sent over? I have always imagined we are running = over the same network as the Internet-originated DoS traffic itself is = originated from the Internet or from a WiFi, LTE, or Ethernet-connected = device, which means the MTU is approximately 1280 bytes (considering = both IPv6 minimum MTU of 1280, and the typical IPv4 MTU seen on the = Internet). But it seems draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls is anticipating using = SMS for signaling. According to draft-fossati-dtls-over-gsm-sms, SMS = can do its own reassembly ("Concatenated short messages") so for SMS it = seems we (IETF) don't need to do protocol work SMS = fragmentation/reassembly. -d >=20 >=20 >=20 > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02.txt > Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 11:40:20 -0700 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: Robert Moskowitz = , Susan Hares = >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02.txt > has been successfully submitted by Robert Moskowitz and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls > Revision: 02 > Title: DOTS Secure Session Layer Services > Document date: 2016-03-21 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 6 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02.txt = > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls/ = > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02 = > Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02 = >=20 > Abstract: > This document describes using a session layer service for DOTS > messaging to provide secure messaging while delivering on a number = of > DOTS requirements including avoiding fate-sharing with the under- > lying communications. >=20 > = =20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots --Apple-Mail=_085E2572-66D4-405E-BF6B-57315BE6CC5B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On 21-Mar-2016 11:43 am, Robert Moskowitz <rgm-sec@htt-consult.com> wrote:
=20
For my agenda item on

Introducing session layer considerations

Please see the following draft.  There are a number of = 'embedded' drafts to work through to get the whole story.  I will start a discuss on this tomorrow on the list.

If we = need fragmentation support, a fragmentation layer on top of DTLS would = serve us better than SSLS.  DTLS already handles fragmentation for = its own handshakes (similar to IKE's RFC7383), leaving us with solving = the fragmentation/reassembly. I see both draft-fossati-dtls-over-gsm-sms = (expired) and draft-hartke-dice-practical-issues (expired) explored the = problem and some solutions with small-MTU networks with UDP = packets.

But back to requirements = for a moment:  what is the minimum MTU we need DOTS signaling to be = sent over?  I have always imagined we are running over the same = network as the Internet-originated DoS traffic itself is originated from = the Internet or from a WiFi, LTE, or Ethernet-connected device, which = means the MTU is approximately 1280 bytes (considering both IPv6 minimum = MTU of 1280, and the typical IPv4 MTU seen on the Internet).  But = it seems draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls is anticipating using SMS for = signaling.  According to draft-fossati-dtls-over-gsm-sms, SMS can = do its own reassembly ("Concatenated short messages") so for SMS it = seems we (IETF) don't need to do protocol work SMS = fragmentation/reassembly.

-d




-------- Forwarded Message -------- =
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02.txt
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 11:40:20 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com><= /a>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> 


A new version of I-D, =
draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02.txt
has been successfully submitted by Robert Moskowitz and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls
Revision:	02
Title:		DOTS Secure Session Layer Services
Document date:	2016-03-21
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		6
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02.txt=

Status:         https=
://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls/
Htmlized:       https://=
tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02
Diff:           =
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02

Abstract:
   This document describes using a session layer service for DOTS
   messaging to provide secure messaging while delivering on a number of
   DOTS requirements including avoiding fate-sharing with the under-
   lying communications.

                                                                         =
        =20


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



_______________________________________________
Dots = mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots


= --Apple-Mail=_085E2572-66D4-405E-BF6B-57315BE6CC5B-- From nobody Wed Mar 23 20:47:21 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C0D812D187 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:47:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 95biYurKoxBt for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x22c.google.com (mail-pa0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F56712D10A for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id tt10so11534658pab.3 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:47:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ogGveoj4dNaGJ6HOAWTrLqblhDQ4+1mSuchHsOjnmtU=; b=F54zx48Msl//cPLZatyTVphpLOpwZTTALFHmIN5sLk3uNeSXEIqLyAEUcArIAgqmy+ GLgDepbTdUj9T0B4OCDmAO9YzOfROO4o/vfCN85Apdb4PPJBLgf2MvfdldJMenNZC8uv IZXJMJgVhxeTmnSNJ1kG0D4yaPBtbhFEzGl50= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ogGveoj4dNaGJ6HOAWTrLqblhDQ4+1mSuchHsOjnmtU=; b=ZmYPw/BnfuPiW7cmSpq/kudyHUtJx9zlNWO9vx7RyRfBccnwQZrY6mJf6QLWTcaa4E GFAHdlMbhyH7PcDJtEx22dqypRzE4t/THfKQW24CZagG0G4gPUeEgdnXZHxBewL+q2mI FRfpiZiKi+9yBRXDf6qw/fV1EGgD9/Nk8BeIjG/uRHlFr8eYPHNXwpyLBMFbB07P8zLS pVIdYSgYoTjScdAY4y67RPLsAN0WTOFov17UNf61dsKcltPlwcYvjntoNkw6FUHB7MIN BhQk9J/fxnw7aVszh6JZ6ajbRxslikOtOqPuRunfOAZMmyDimQkEC3glw+yPP3WkvfHh 9hfA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJINjXBwraL5jzAA3Uxi7ITZ0Y93tyrMBEuyIhAE5SfSfwyV3o6bY6AgWx2VPzEBGNrk X-Received: by 10.66.129.130 with SMTP id nw2mr9447483pab.80.1458791238661; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.145] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id to9sm7287106pab.27.2016.03.23.20.47.16 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:47:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: "dots@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 10:47:14 +0700 Message-ID: <20BD2BD5-0CC1-479B-AA9C-F5DF58D8C1BD@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <2F7C780F-B325-4FAD-B46B-EBC5A97A7181@cisco.com> References: <56F040DD.9020700@htt-consult.com> <2F7C780F-B325-4FAD-B46B-EBC5A97A7181@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 03:47:20 -0000 On 24 Mar 2016, at 7:59, 🔓Dan Wing wrote: > I have always imagined we are running over the same network as the > Internet-originated DoS traffic itself is originated from the Internet > or from a WiFi, LTE, or Ethernet-connected device That's the typical scenario. SMS, QR codes, et. al. are nice-to-haves, but aren't the primary communications path/medium. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Wed Mar 23 20:48:41 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1091712D187 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:48:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hJS7io1LjB6v for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:48:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x22d.google.com (mail-pf0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE68912D10A for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:48:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id x3so46726458pfb.1 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:48:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=cHH5ILI07MpXJ8a+EqsBDaBi1yNTOdTseDETfwvnAiA=; b=mXlbbf2Ffdefj12F7LvbiwxY1Jjf8/FqgRNQPFcn7lMp1JmU73pIY3vkYqqfOmZ3yQ nJnA6kDtoXro33smwu01qRaX8tHrahF+w3IV27escipmF9zqatkqqP+uYE0BVn3XQXs+ P/razvHi1ZfdmY3yE4iO4m8H8GUZOa8ih/mlo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=cHH5ILI07MpXJ8a+EqsBDaBi1yNTOdTseDETfwvnAiA=; b=A7UPPQ8Bf286gY6g2+Rt43kR+g7ZEgdZiue/nHNvK/yudC1U8wnF6EN92qEYL4e/Jv Rth4ZyOJ2KqtvJEolKVGEJgqqb3v+cciVaVGJhvM9zJhJF5BKjfDgoHLCXFVG6VWGWuZ 6EztTcoMozr8VEBCCcGFwuIwWzxjmc3CIpYVggfCv8yW8BHYehodUlIXnO3fBwrg3iW+ 6bVlZ2yNKdcyZgoQsgydiawsGZ94VcN7rhyaQXNbnR565I78SDk4w1anoPc4Ae6TfaYT RuI/qpQ26xh6DWmV7e1k0RAahjd+6g/IW9JCzKgY9MIEoReUySiG0JG0UMZ70o6Nbe8o ylwQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKfb+rABos/WiXdXWTPS9ZU8VFoXBX+v10l2g6V8EkTawPgEh6sRhcbJeZWershudDm X-Received: by 10.98.7.136 with SMTP id 8mr9524474pfh.24.1458791317891; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.145] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k65sm7304494pfb.30.2016.03.23.20.48.36 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:48:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: dots@ietf.org Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 10:48:33 +0700 Message-ID: <5DD1E199-35C3-46C1-98A5-A7D7A37D2942@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <195A2FF3-8EBC-43D0-94FA-7302ECE12635@cisco.com> References: <20160321175551.31929.22662.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56F03684.7060207@inria.fr> <195A2FF3-8EBC-43D0-94FA-7302ECE12635@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 03:48:41 -0000 On 24 Mar 2016, at 7:28, 🔓Dan Wing wrote: > some DOTS deployment models have the DOTS server on the Internet > (e.g., cloud-based DDoS mitigation) where such agreements don't > (can't) exist. Concur 100%. This isn't practicable. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Wed Mar 23 20:59:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8224012D60D for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:59:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OVrCkpB7SSRx for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x234.google.com (mail-pa0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8D9F12D60B for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-x234.google.com with SMTP id fl4so11688836pad.0 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:59:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=SVQ19kPQlfVMIGcgEkHqZuznHpNnWhLIZRC31Y7DH5A=; b=eQwTXdwm1ZZTSPP4EgPwDKks0GXxWaEuII85PIy7feJhTochl/rVpLd77Y9jffCZZi 6r/4qLrqvE0UUUsab8HH5cjZi3/JwkD9WUwKzh9kj2Jl+GAu79zA+rKB7xV5GmaQVAPd oPbRrEuaLkJTh3jhvP9tIrj2CJU5sz1B6Lb/U= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=SVQ19kPQlfVMIGcgEkHqZuznHpNnWhLIZRC31Y7DH5A=; b=IsR6VyUc+GMjzPPciybiEPJo108dODlW43kB7x50NxP0U1bGuwWzvEz52A2ozb2+lA XWhc1Q/PnQkf9yJoAYnEMCwgEv5WYKqun72Sx7XiqhcCmkq9eazh8XrlnfLwzhlb5lV8 aO3l/SUnbHtO0whuzAdAC5tZhndlLhvmCHapObiPv8ecTJjOiEtnaWlOBMWv8PYLBZhx OE+hDSKAeXhntamMEwp0D87OHEekwwPKPzE3rfg+OAAiDv3xl3HiEth/GYc2RkXJHq3s NaR7HU8PgzB7hmV9Gmeey4jbtCDnXc1NT/FSCwHkO1s0+dyq0zPVASk0r+3RsW5xx1CM K6zg== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLxNqhdiLPIa05JPXarj8mQSAbNk/R5WgQH+GjbFVHLyE7c3F40aPneG45QIQIjzYV2 X-Received: by 10.66.120.202 with SMTP id le10mr9385304pab.155.1458791989392; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.145] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e87sm7323653pfb.76.2016.03.23.20.59.47 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:59:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: dots@ietf.org Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 10:59:45 +0700 Message-ID: <4405FD9A-25BB-4547-9700-D57F817223D9@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <2099689744.16085.1458753573220.JavaMail.vpopmail@atl4oxapp106.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com> References: <56F144DE.1040100@htt-consult.com> <42d5273cb0224ff6ad5005b79a3807d7@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <322156233.32795.1458702629342.JavaMail.vpopmail@atl4oxapp106.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com> <56F20B80.9000903@htt-consult.com> <0335c6107a704152a59d8004a1037227@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <56F2ACF4.2070608@htt-consult.com> <2099689744.16085.1458753573220.JavaMail.vpopmail@atl4oxapp106.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS secure transport discussion - introducing SSLS X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 03:59:51 -0000 On 24 Mar 2016, at 0:19, gclark mti-systems.com wrote: > Why are we chunking things when we don't have things defined to be > chunked? Why are we talking about compression when we don't know if > anything actually *needs* to be compressed? We do seem to be getting a bit ahead of ourselves, concur 100%. As well as continued attempts to do things like reinvent parts of IPFIX, poorly and unnecessarily, within DOTS. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Wed Mar 23 21:06:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7783F12D17C for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:06:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dj-W1-pf7y1s for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x234.google.com (mail-pa0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9D0F12D157 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-x234.google.com with SMTP id tt10so11886826pab.3 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:06:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=D1FsegbscBX81vTZIs4XQcuUJvuZ/myrYwa6U71hzdk=; b=FafHrgJvT/QPKgnsxdmYiS4XVd2VS+Q8edikQgINpscZEAizsKJ5QUNlS3pyJEx7JM h9W3ur+iQcU/YbnHazYgKaGF47/WqutfGL5sF4Ajp881EF11IKomPZ4fIXayzixS5rdc yulcxTNzKPuJ1wta6TOaMYhUNUfBnDsjTuL5Q= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=D1FsegbscBX81vTZIs4XQcuUJvuZ/myrYwa6U71hzdk=; b=QVZsp3kf2x/eKj8wSd/xggukeDCQpbOiN/Aor6D/pKbp7HqRmgOJIBsgP3lu+uJ5Fq XyHYTe71GybM/NnvO1byxZE+c3vvURlGT5qIIMLtt1kZpx6tMVOSqs4TSDfOG6wOHsDx vcEnsfBCNhvgzEzf+x34FLkc7N18nsmwcFwIZVzBvSitICwk5Ny3POw2ej7BrJPZgAJM aUlV2299WgfjBMs25rkrAitLg1Awn5hi8emq+0wTHoNAov01pXU/QwL0+9jS32io+363 5CDK2hdy/RSoP2ULJPcQWrhDEBMRAfUNOcmp6NzsVuE1vCoKBdBL1xXUzeznH/pjOJ+Z X5lA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKeX1nBw+OGSN7UUEqYrjmaZB7wrGYPd3WfDJo24d3bZ1GFweEQguYzXP5EozAHpmmI X-Received: by 10.66.222.129 with SMTP id qm1mr9430239pac.22.1458792377384; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.145] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t87sm7366878pfa.54.2016.03.23.21.06.15 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:06:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: dots Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 11:06:13 +0700 Message-ID: <3809F6FA-3F32-4A71-8800-2C2E8A348AFD@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <6cad25b025184070bd2192fe6890a550@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <72449124df3847efaf7c00eeb7bb7517@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <6CCE4254-1E55-41D5-A299-52BB60F75C6B@arbor.net> <1833e1de0cb94fcfb5ba2f89812d6862@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <6cad25b025184070bd2192fe6890a550@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] requirements clarifications needed X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 04:06:19 -0000 On 23 Mar 2016, at 23:24, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: > can check if MSPP B can handle the attack or not and then re-direct That's undesirable for multiple reasons, not the least of which is extra unnecessary delay, as well as unknown (prior to signaling attempt) communications path state between MSSP and MSSP B. Better for it to be direct between requesting network and each MSSP. > The problem is not just delay but also packet loss. The link is > congested during the attack and responses from the DOTS server could > get lost. That's potentially true, especially if this is a stateful-transport situation, and if OOB isn't used (we should always strongly recommend OOB, although it won't be the majority of deployments, sadly). Nevertheless, that's true of all communications in this type of scenario. Retraction is potentially more helpful than mere rejection. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Thu Mar 24 15:13:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F17D12D92E for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2016 15:12:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pa9OepX8HMYN for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2016 15:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D10412D7BF for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2016 15:12:56 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,387,1454972400"; d="scan'208,217";a="210059310" Received: from zmbs2.inria.fr ([128.93.142.15]) by mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 24 Mar 2016 23:12:47 +0100 Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 23:12:47 +0100 (CET) From: Abdelkader Lahmadi To: =?utf-8?B?8J+Uk0Rhbg==?= Wing Message-ID: <1171392464.13152849.1458857567927.JavaMail.zimbra@loria.fr> In-Reply-To: <104639888.13150956.1458856266578.JavaMail.zimbra@loria.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_13152848_1426146033.1458857567925" X-Originating-IP: [88.163.251.98] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.0.9_GA_6191 (ZimbraWebClient - GC48 (Mac)/8.0.9_GA_6191) Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00.txt Thread-Index: z9E0bgY3ph9gGBEFygDbl8cmjuOrMQ== Archived-At: Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=F4me_Fran=E7ois?= , Giovane Moura , dots@ietf.org, "Marco Davids \(SIDN\)" Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 22:12:59 -0000 ------=_Part_13152848_1426146033.1458857567925 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,=20 Thanks for the feedback. Comments inline:=20 IPv6 Extensions Headers, themselves, are often rate-limited or dropped enti= rely, reference=20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gont-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-packet-drops=20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-in-real-world=20 http://www.iepg.org/2014-03-02-ietf89/fgont-iepg-ietf89-eh-update.pdf=20 Thanks for the references, we will go through them and clarify this issue i= n the draft.=20
While there might be agreement to not drop such packets over a link or over= an ISP access network, some DOTS deployment models have the DOTS server on= the Internet (e.g., cloud-based DDoS mitigation) where such agreements don= 't (can't) exist.=20
If the DOTS server (or a Relay) and client are located in the same administ= rative domain, piggybacking the proposed option in the packets could be don= e in a straight forward way, while considering that an agreement exists to = avoid dropping or rate limiting of IPv6 extension headers. However, yes it = becomes more difficult when the server is on the Internet. Such deployment = model needs more thought.=20 We will clarify and discuss the different deployment models when updating t= he draft.=20
While using v6 for this sort of piggybacked DOTS message is admirable, it i= s limited to networks where the DOTS client, DOTS server, intervening netwo= rk, and user traffic (on which to piggyback) are all using IPv6 during the = attack.=20
We mainly consider that an IPv6 traffic exists during the attack (it could = be any type of IPv6 packets since the proposed mechanism is opportunistic) = to be able to make use of the proposed piggybacking mechanism.=20
Finally, such piggybacked messages seem difficult to authenticate.=20
We are also looking to this issue to make use of an authentication token in= the piggybacked option. We will detail and make a proposition to tackle th= is issue.=20 Best,=20
-d=20
Thanks,=20 J=E9r=F4me=20 -------- Message transf=E9r=E9 -------- Sujet : =09New Version Notification= for draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00.txt=20 Date : =09Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:55:51 -0700=20 De : =09internet-drafts@ietf.org=20 Pour : =09Jerome Francois , Abdelkader Lahmadi <= abdelkader.lahmadi@loria.fr>=20 A new version of I-D, draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Jerome Francois and posted to the IETF repository. Name:=09=09draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option Revision:=0900 Title:=09=09IPv6 DOTS Signal Option Document date:=092016-03-21 Group:=09=09Individual Submission Pages:=09=0913 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-o= ption-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-francois-ipv6-d= ots-signal-option/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-francois-ipv= 6-dots-signal-option-00 Abstract: This document describes a delivery mechanism based on the IPv6 Hop- by-Hop options extension header type to carry a DOTS client signal message over a congested network due to a DDoS attack. The specified mechanism allows the DOTS client signal message to be included using an opportunistic way in outgoing IPv6 packets traveling then through the network to reach a DOTS server or relay. = =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org . The IETF Secretariat=20 _______________________________________________=20 Dots mailing list=20 Dots@ietf.org=20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots=20
------=_Part_13152848_1426146033.1458857567925 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
Thanks for the feedback. Comments inline:
Thanks for the references, we will go through them and clarify thi= s issue in the draft.   

While there mig= ht be agreement to not drop such packets over a link or over an ISP access = network, some DOTS deployment models have the DOTS server on the Internet (= e.g., cloud-based DDoS mitigation) where such agreements don't (can't) exis= t.
If the DOTS server (or a Relay) and client = are located in the same administrative domain, piggybacking the proposed op= tion in the packets could be done in a straight forward way, while consider= ing that an agreement exists to avoid= dropping or rate limiting of IPv6 extension headers. However, yes it becom= es more difficult when the ser= ver is on the Internet. Such deployment model needs more thought.
We will clarify and discuss the di= fferent deployment models when updating the draft.

While using v6 for this sort of piggyba= cked DOTS message is admirable, it is limited to networks where the DOTS cl= ient, DOTS server, intervening network, and user traffic (on which to piggy= back) are all using IPv6 during the attack.
We= mainly consider that an IPv6 traffic exists during the attack (it could be= any type of IPv6 packets since the proposed mechanism is opportunistic)&nb= sp;to be able to make use of the proposed piggybacking mechanism. 

Finally, such piggybacked messages seem difficu= lt to authenticate.
We are also looking to thi= s issue to make use of an authentication token in the piggybacked option. W= e will detail and make a proposition to tackle this issue.

Best,

<= div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">-d



Thanks,
J=E9r=F4me


-------- Message transf=E9r=E9 --------
Sujet := New Version Notification for draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00.txt<= /td>
Date :Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:55:51 = -0700
De :internet-drafts@ietf.org
Pour :Jerome Francois <jerome.francois@inria.fr>, Abdelkader Lahmadi <abdelkader.lahmadi@loria.f= r>


A new version of I-D, draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Jerome Francois and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=09=09draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option
Revision:=0900
Title:=09=09IPv6 DOTS Signal Option
Document date:=092016-03-21
Group:=09=09Individual Submission
Pages:=09=0913
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-francois-ipv6-dots-s=
ignal-option-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option/
Htmlized:       ht=
tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-francois-ipv6-dots-signal-option-00


Abstract:
   This document describes a delivery mechanism based on the IPv6 Hop-
   by-Hop options extension header type to carry a DOTS client signal
   message over a congested network due to a DDoS attack. The specified
   mechanism allows the DOTS client signal message to be included using
   an opportunistic way in outgoing IPv6 packets traveling then through
   the network to reach a DOTS server or relay.


                                                                           =
      =20


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


___________________________= ____________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
=



------=_Part_13152848_1426146033.1458857567925-- From nobody Fri Mar 25 07:58:44 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEBA412DAFB for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2016 07:58:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2QgnEJt593Yd for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2016 07:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atl4mhob07.myregisteredsite.com (atl4mhob07.myregisteredsite.com [209.17.115.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 397EE12D67A for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2016 07:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atl4oxapp110.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com ([10.30.71.186]) by atl4mhob07.myregisteredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id u2PEwc03013479; Fri, 25 Mar 2016 10:58:38 -0400 Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 10:58:38 -0400 (EDT) From: "gclark mti-systems.com" To: dots@ietf.org, Roland Dobbins Message-ID: <587112500.5378.1458917918969.JavaMail.vpopmail@atl4oxapp110.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com> In-Reply-To: <20BD2BD5-0CC1-479B-AA9C-F5DF58D8C1BD@arbor.net> References: <56F040DD.9020700@htt-consult.com> <2F7C780F-B325-4FAD-B46B-EBC5A97A7181@cisco.com> <20BD2BD5-0CC1-479B-AA9C-F5DF58D8C1BD@arbor.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.6.2-Rev35 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: "gclark mti-systems.com" List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 14:58:43 -0000 > On March 23, 2016 at 11:47 PM Roland Dobbins wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 24 Mar 2016, at 7:59, =F0=9F=94=93Dan Wing wrote: >=20 > > I have always imagined we are running over the same network as the=20 > > Internet-originated DoS traffic itself is originated from the Internet= =20 > > or from a WiFi, LTE, or Ethernet-connected device >=20 > That's the typical scenario. SMS, QR codes, et. al. are nice-to-haves,= =20 > but aren't the primary communications path/medium. Right, that is the typical scenario ... but I don't necessarily agree that = it is the *only* scenario. In the event we *do* have better / alternative channe= ls available, I feel like DOTS should be able to capitalize on those without dragging along *too much* of the baggage necessary to support operation acr= oss bad links and / or the internet in general. Also, I feel like the transport problem, the session problem, etc. are a *l= ot less* important than the model problem. The way I see it, DOTS should prim= arily describe a standard data format (with standardized data fields) that gets p= ushed across the wire / radio waves / encoded into a QR code / whatever ... becau= se the optimal transport is *always* going to depend on the environment into w= hich DOTS is being deployed. -Gilbert From nobody Fri Mar 25 08:21:22 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9EB412D665 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2016 08:21:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EhNiHWpigKAb for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2016 08:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x235.google.com (mail-pa0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DD5812DB22 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2016 08:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-x235.google.com with SMTP id td3so48051524pab.2 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2016 08:21:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=oakFeAg9jfzdS+ocDlcUwKg6a6ltL5OSFj54rCioros=; b=ghDaLtCb2wVe+bZxSKTWl9rU0dnBPalbkOSV29spH9t9EL1vYS4a8pzZxj2U4XkxG/ aElgbfXQg7MHud2rzQZxgrB7D5V1DYDaMAL9Wag4A0C3QruEqQhjd9N/0taEQCDBGE6w Jg5apEOa/v2iyI4uRYbiaJggJ/LV9OVYYDKrA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=oakFeAg9jfzdS+ocDlcUwKg6a6ltL5OSFj54rCioros=; b=S1t+77H60EH9NKiC0J37ZgetZwOW5DtNc8+sgQSNTxHfcl261V33BKxtAt/LnTnq6F JbpBLtiDweRy/JE8KayAQjzk6D/4AX+MOvKe9zXedqlf30XQogeTlKH+JZipgDtx2HFn OA68Q1VLVzLU+0mUrBCzodZh4DFA0m7ddPJycII+EOCdDgQIAxOA9lY6er3kZZY4QJjv 8CDvZkU8CHoN1AbRjpVSHbN5fJFz+BhyzE9lXo5swACanrYDiAPI+0VLKWAfj0Nq4FJl UCRg2uUSfMSlzA/q9vFXcYOkoCGnYhFaBAkG9Gyft90WF2RG6Mk+GxKYUCUhwx6npY7c UsyA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJI+J1IzNr5I7d4tZWxI7csFMrAEv/fk4+Cnv3OMNmGmDu/AeKmKlSPhNX7dbIJCTV6m X-Received: by 10.66.173.74 with SMTP id bi10mr21417622pac.40.1458919272871; Fri, 25 Mar 2016 08:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.144] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ql1sm17216473pac.24.2016.03.25.08.21.10 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 25 Mar 2016 08:21:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: dots@ietf.org Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 22:21:08 +0700 Message-ID: <4DA2AB8B-8F36-4AD6-83CB-C374394B1A5F@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <587112500.5378.1458917918969.JavaMail.vpopmail@atl4oxapp110.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com> References: <56F040DD.9020700@htt-consult.com> <2F7C780F-B325-4FAD-B46B-EBC5A97A7181@cisco.com> <20BD2BD5-0CC1-479B-AA9C-F5DF58D8C1BD@arbor.net> <587112500.5378.1458917918969.JavaMail.vpopmail@atl4oxapp110.mgt.hosting.qts.netsol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-moskowitz-dots-ssls-02.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 15:21:21 -0000 On 25 Mar 2016, at 21:58, gclark mti-systems.com wrote: > The way I see it, DOTS should primarily > describe a standard data format (with standardized data fields) that > gets pushed > across the wire / radio waves / encoded into a QR code / whatever ... > because > the optimal transport is *always* going to depend on the environment > into which > DOTS is being deployed. Concur 100%. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Sat Mar 26 02:36:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F12C12D50A for ; Sat, 26 Mar 2016 02:36:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.23 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.23 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7TJV2Kv1soCq for ; Sat, 26 Mar 2016 02:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4A3812D508 for ; Sat, 26 Mar 2016 02:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CLG44626; Sat, 26 Mar 2016 09:36:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SZXEMA411-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.70) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.93) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Sat, 26 Mar 2016 09:36:16 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA502-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.36]) by szxema411-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Sat, 26 Mar 2016 17:36:09 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank)" To: Andrew Mortensen Thread-Topic: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRglbL7pM2q2wH6EiOSsmG8c3gF59rZVig Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 09:36:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.43.91] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F12AF2570FSZXEMA502MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090203.56F65812.00DF, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.36, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 8fc6490612cb5754a5c121d73d8e0243 Archived-At: Cc: dots Subject: [Dots] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgRndkOiBOZXcgVmVyc2lvbiBOb3RpZmljYXRp?= =?utf-8?q?on_for_draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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[72.13.63.41]) by smtp-relay.gmail.com with ESMTPS id u79sm549142qku.8.2016.03.26.03.11.26 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 26 Mar 2016 03:11:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Relaying-Domain: verisign.com Received: from brn1wnexcas01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com (brn1wnexcas01 [10.173.152.205]) by brn1lxmailout01.verisign.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u2QABPr6010168 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 26 Mar 2016 06:11:26 -0400 Received: from BRN1WNEXMBX01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([::1]) by brn1wnexcas01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Sat, 26 Mar 2016 06:11:25 -0400 From: "Teague, Nik" To: "Xialiang (Frank)" Thread-Topic: =?big5?B?W0RvdHNdILWqzmA6ICBGd2Q6IE5ldyBWZXJzaW9uIE5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbiBmb3Ig?= =?big5?Q?draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt?= Thread-Index: AQHRh0MKKnfqb8et/km3QOxaPrbNLp9rgS48 Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 10:11:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CF9D73C44BEC44AF99458A5DAE045386Verisigncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Andrew Mortensen , dots Subject: Re: [Dots] =?big5?b?tarOYDogIEZ3ZDogTmV3IFZlcnNpb24gTm90aWZpY2F0aW9u?= =?big5?b?IGZvciBkcmFmdC1tb3J0ZW5zZW4tZG90cy1hcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUtMDAudHh0?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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Frank hi,

On 26 Mar 2016, at 09:36, Xialiang (Frank) <frank.xialiang@huawei.com> wrote:

.       To: dots Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 20:56:57 +0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 13:57:05 -0000 On 26 Mar 2016, at 16:36, Xialiang (Frank) wrote: > Hi Andrew, I'm not Andrew, but I'll take a stab at this - I'm sure Andrew, et. al. will correct me as necessary: > a) The dots agents in the architecture are variable in the > aspects such as: address, transport protocol, capability, as well as > the addition of new agents or the leaving of old agents; I personally don't see any problem with this, but defer to Andrew and the other folks working on the architecture. > > b) In an end to end dots connection, there is possibly several > different transport protocols applied over part of the path; Yes, this is implied. It should probably be expressed explicitly, IMHO. > 2. What do you imply by “we request working group feedback and > discussion of operational considerations relating to coordinating > multiple provider responses to a mitigation request”? Could you > elaborate more details about what is the possible problem for it? I believe the request here is for additional feedback for any considerations which arise in a multi-provider scenario, where coordination is needed between the client and two or more mitigation providers, and between the mitigation providers themselves. This scenario was described in use-cases-00 and -01, detailed in the diagrams in the -00 .pdf preso, and will be in the same preso for -01. > 3. What is the exact meaning of the sentence – “The requests > may be in response to an active, ongoing attack against a target in > the DOTS client’s domain, but no active attack is required for a > DOTS client to request help. ”? Nik already replied to this one. Additionally, an organization may believe that they're about to come under attack - say, they received a DDoS extortion demand - and want to proactively request that mitigation be initiated. > a) Can you give me a concrete example of what kind of device > can be as a dots relay? Anything with an IP address. > If it can be a router, does it mean that router need to be updated to > support some dots relay functions? Yes. > b) How to clearly differentiate the dots server and dots relay > from functional perspective? Especially in the aspects of > pre-provisioning, mutual authentication/authorization, dots signaling > communication from the viewpoints of dots clients? It seems to have > some functions overlapping between the relay and server. They're essentially identical, except that the relay doesn't directly cause the initiation/termination of mitigation. > > c) In general, relay means the in-path device being > transparent to the end points, but do snooping over the protocol > messages (such as dhcp relay, dns relay, etc). That's a usage which has been adopted by some in the vendor and standards communities, but is not the standard dictionary definition of the word 'relay'. > But in dots architecture, does the dots relay run in this way, or run > more the way as a proxy? A proxying function is part of being a relay, yes. > 5. Comparing the redirect way with the recursive way, the former > is not a good choice because we should not require the dots client to > involve in more communications when it is under a severe attack; When a client requests mitigation, and a server reports back that it can't initiate mitigation for whatever reason (lack of capacity, lack of functionality, error state, etc.), then the client is going to have to request mitigation elsewhere, anyways, assuming it's configured to do so. The redirect message provides the client with the information it needs to reach a functioning DOTS server which can fulfill the request. Without redirection, the client must try blindly, or just give up. So, the implication that a redirect will cause more communications to be initiated by the client is incorrect. > Why not run all the mitigation control and decisions on the dots > server? Because of flexibility of deployment models, of course. And because all mitigators - in fact, most mitigators, at least in the beginning of DOTS deployment - won't themselves be DOTS-capable. > Do you agree it’s more clear aligned to dots scope? Nope. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Sun Mar 27 03:36:36 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D73912D158 for ; Sun, 27 Mar 2016 03:36:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vGyz4HLzPvxh for ; Sun, 27 Mar 2016 03:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A46012D150 for ; Sun, 27 Mar 2016 03:36:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1322; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1459074993; x=1460284593; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=LWPd5b3YVvjPewsg5buWAoc8+OF7MD1GWqwSRvfiHTA=; b=VkpYw9gZvh6UW/pqpmhQa6Wsnezlkqo+zfOlmCOyynvVpEnkado4rTJL PuPyXJ0RkG0JPZJPydceCSDYYBzPkAyXoB7/rcNqbhGoz3kyuISf8rnhD cWk9XtEvffUg2JCQALHp9Y/LAPRw5hemrSMdvE3ZR4uVDLhMED8Kcv/HY c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AHAgBct/dW/5xdJa1dgy6BVrpmAQ2Bc?= =?us-ascii?q?IYNAhyBADgUAQEBAQEBAWQnhEEBAQEDASMRQxICAQgOBAgCJgICAjAVAg4CBAE?= =?us-ascii?q?aiBcIsDOQNgEBAQEBAQEBAgEBAQEBAQEBARd8hSKERIQkgxiCVgWXYQGNfo8Sj?= =?us-ascii?q?woBHgEBQoIwgTWIRH4BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,400,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="254199595" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 27 Mar 2016 10:36:25 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com (xch-rcd-017.cisco.com [173.37.102.27]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2RAaP5i000410 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 27 Mar 2016 10:36:25 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Sun, 27 Mar 2016 05:36:24 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Sun, 27 Mar 2016 05:36:24 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Roland Dobbins , dots Thread-Topic: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRh2dlMIZy2Ma/lUiRx4Lf0iRGx59tFlQg Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 10:36:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.90.136] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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Danyliw" , "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , Tobias Gondrom , Linda Dunbar Subject: Re: [Dots] [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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ZD4NCg== --_000_BY2PR0301MB06932EF86E3F1C48B038A398D6860BY2PR0301MB0693_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yes! Thx, Dacheng.

Adding DOTS here.

Luyuan

 

From: Dacheng Zhang [mailto:dacheng.zdc@aliba= ba-inc.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 8:59 PM
To: Luyuan Fang <lufang@microsoft.com>; i2nsf@ietf.org
Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk; Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>= ;
Subject: Re: [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-ap= i-01

 

Should = this be discussed in dots as well?

&n= bsp;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: I2nsf <i2nsf-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Luyuan Fang <= ;lufang@microsoft.com>
=C8= =D5=C6=DA: 2016=C4=EA3= =D4=C228=C8=D5 =D0=C7= =C6=DA=D2=BB =C9=CF= =CE=E711:44
=D6= =C1: "i2nsf@ietf.org" <i2nsf@ie= tf.org>
=B3= =AD=CB=CD: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud= -ddos-mitigation-api-01

 

Hi Linda, Adrian, and al= l,

 =

We posted draft-fang-i2n= sf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 on 3/21.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitig= ation-api-01

 =

We extend more on the= DDOS attack trends we are observing and the urgent need for automated inte= r-cloud/provider DDoS mitigation. We propose categories and formats of basi= c set of APIs. We also address comments/questions on 00 draft from the WG.

 =

Characteristics of the D= DoS attacks that we have seen:

1) Growing in volume, e.g., 450 Gbps peak speed DDoS attack was observed= by an ISP in 12/2014, while over 300 Gbps DDoS attack was reported by anot= her provider in 2013;

2) Growing in frequency.

3) Using Cloud services to launch major attacks, especially when some cl= oud services do not impose bandwidth and compute resource limitation;

4) Growing in sophistication: leverage vulnerable services like NTP, DNS= , and BitTorrent to amplify the available bandwidth;

5) Growing attack to Inter-cloud/Inter-provider connection links, large = volume attack can disrupt all cloud services traversing through the inter-c= onnection links.

 =

This draft is focus on I= nter-Cloud/Inter-provider DDoS attack mitigation, and may extend to more ge= neral security information exchange. We need mechanisms which can enable DD= oS mitigation across Cloud Service Providers (CSPs) and Network Service Providers (NSPs). These mechanisms must support= real time, automated information exchange among CSPs and NSPs, and achieve= rapid protective response and effective Inter Cloud/Inter Provider DDoS at= tack mitigation.

 =

We propose the following= categories of basic set of Inter-cloud APIs:

1)  =     Capability infor= mation exchange: Support "Query" the DDoS capabilities from one p= rovider to another provider.

2)  =     Mitigation Reque= st and response: One provider can "Request" for mitigation. The p= rovider received DDoS mitigation request can ack request, execute mitigatio= n procedure,  and respond back.

3)  =     Monitoring and R= eporting: Allow another provider to monitor DDoS status and mitigation proc= esses; and provide DDoS status reports to partner providers.

4)  =     Knowledge sharin= g: Allow partner providers to query for a specific DDoS related data to enh= ance their DDoS resiliency and perform coordinated mitigation whenever poss= ible.

 =

We also propose to use R= EST API format (examples in the draft).

 =

We=A1=AFd like to discus= s on the list, and F2F at IETF95. We are open to ideas, and welcome contrib= utions to progress the draft and make it usable for deployment.<= /span>

 =

Thanks,

Luyuan=

 =

 =

 =

 =

 =

_______________________________________________ I2nsf mailing l= ist I2nsf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2nsf

--_000_BY2PR0301MB06932EF86E3F1C48B038A398D6860BY2PR0301MB0693_-- From nobody Mon Mar 28 08:35:39 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E26CB12DADC for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2016 08:35:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BwjX84Ax0xlE for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2016 08:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x22d.google.com (mail-pa0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5BC112DAC7 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2016 08:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id tt10so101043773pab.3 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2016 08:35:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=y4qxZ9HIa3g9t4UXqbOBKd5odKKQknWnQiGHssqlANs=; b=aUhsuOXzaHw5Mk2JxIwvmBiqVCS4TP7DIvepGllh20trVge7wycXPT2hlSqaBJ54oB kpQ3zE6iiaV42D9Y4lPblNDFuP7ETz3uj79ABqi1Z4sMRRRVt7fUS2q15sXKhYEsjftU EQqACL1Vb1/IXsbOLR7wkGG0Aq83Xc4CcA8Ko= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=y4qxZ9HIa3g9t4UXqbOBKd5odKKQknWnQiGHssqlANs=; b=Qo/Nh8dicMlRxpQRWBL4AaGEr45cGiSTiRx4II5wYsbyr+cmiL9DN7fbv6ziYIKako 9DKbQhES9cTZ3ZbaKvOKOOZdUkWfNSVEOfipfqidFphpplxix/Y9WW11ZI3AUwqjMBa8 PYGkFIhbjoexziwVfAb05AcqBjtccuMcna7Bhh0EjMCd8drsT0jWYiYP0R8ZZgQ2Ay8K ckbDPayiui4iqpUOydscpjd2ivSAt6F81r7Xxt+rLVhHiCcH8ErSrnynbY5SDV+SzcMI okEw524ntTHaLCCELAKYgm72WP4iHAV+8RJTzJ/lFYkec3BlnGxicKODroaVxH5X310g BzDQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLhIj5j7ytfSP7yv4NkZb3ZS+Vd4alxhb/2ppYxkEMxBDZgl9FeJqvEcOHjQ1Lq9NTM X-Received: by 10.66.190.40 with SMTP id gn8mr43558450pac.64.1459179320303; Mon, 28 Mar 2016 08:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.144] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id lq10sm36663654pab.36.2016.03.28.08.35.18 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 28 Mar 2016 08:35:19 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: dots Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 22:35:15 +0700 Message-ID: <2A9CEED9-5271-41AE-BBC9-B7E4C7796A94@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 15:35:38 -0000 On 27 Mar 2016, at 17:36, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: > DOTS client need not even have to distinguish b/w a DOTS relay and > DOTS server. Concur 100%. It's an intermediary. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Tue Mar 29 08:53:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0D8C12D9D3; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 08:53:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.71 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.71 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KcPyeErHeMFm; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 08:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x236.google.com (mail-yw0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6A7812D9B1; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 08:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x236.google.com with SMTP id h129so23173641ywb.1; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 08:52:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc; bh=78+vplYHh9+b/xhXXqtFVkx6b4EyZb+zHU74r+radfg=; b=p7robqOEGZGMrcbAjktoe4ruU6FeokmQbo/uQc36tg7xxLb62bFxO2yA4NK6IEJe4N yvFqU1TAu87vheGtkrdFJaffEvn5RZVz3QbBcP99fY/tVYlXpqogeK65giOzuk/5Kvxq YGDJ5Xs/pwUKE47E8Ye4w2D/dSvlaoxUSCgWCi8GPgvci3RvUv1FgXOdAF5PtB9veBEg paoYFSeicGcBjk+UMTWvcsHdIK8ih9o0afyeMgkWH4Lq6SOzDX7MU409W+eYyQ7tJNPG DcxD0eRXsUv+DKNa60OVR36EEPI/P4FsT7VzXLfPIWZT8nzJvMP2+968fzRwJQ2AOew7 6Z8A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=78+vplYHh9+b/xhXXqtFVkx6b4EyZb+zHU74r+radfg=; b=F+vw3YcYQAPU4JQGROIPmSH881HWVJouGvcoju6ATye9V7Qu//msNLv7s2qy20NFsL Ko45A2cN4oIXP3TBJJXevguTbXC/crrK20Hhcd2Sb0Hb/0JEM+TX8bLnUerldVrFshlc GTKk5IlIV2PffnZv1hYPRAQOlk+t0bZepJw10NbjC1WtC8dGHCHWyetAwuhn8N2tr+fB BVkaQoCrZJjVDVgU/nhPqcqxhZ+dYwD7SAgQqHOoBkb8dWL9SC28AcEoZ+JgeyYEyxVT k/CkWcUO2ml3SIfNqlPv4qsO1tsNCk29zeO4ud0M2J0nEmQmM65CoWhAUnBVmXYt4llz U8hg== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLoyDxnj9pc3tDUfwnEaWC97oNfvo1hzPjerTKUaEeiO3s+2SgQBQd5xDm9dfen8wtE73IzWEizotS0cg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.13.200.65 with SMTP id k62mr1411141ywd.145.1459266766028; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 08:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Sender: christopher.morrow@gmail.com Received: by 10.13.209.198 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 08:52:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 11:52:45 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: qA-ri13OX3FB3PKWvPUoCcOcYDY Message-ID: From: Christopher Morrow To: Luyuan Fang Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114da64038c680052f320515 Archived-At: Cc: "Roman D. Danyliw" , "i2nsf@ietf.org" , dots , Linda Dunbar , Tobias Gondrom , "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , Dacheng Zhang Subject: Re: [Dots] [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 15:53:44 -0000 --001a114da64038c680052f320515 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable this harkens back to (again): https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc6046/ The abstract / intro to your document talks about some specifics for problems, which generally all users of the network have. I don't see how/why solving for 'cloud' is different than solving for 'cableco'. DOTS proposes similar 'tell people I need help' bits. INCH did this with RID in ~2010. Arbor does this with fingerprint-sharing. I don't know that a third or fourth methodology is really going to move the needle here, is it? On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 12:17 AM, Luyuan Fang wrote: > Yes! Thx, Dacheng. > > Adding DOTS here. > > Luyuan > > > > *From:* Dacheng Zhang [mailto:dacheng.zdc@alibaba-inc.com] > *Sent:* Sunday, March 27, 2016 8:59 PM > *To:* Luyuan Fang ; i2nsf@ietf.org > *Cc:* adrian@olddog.co.uk; Linda Dunbar > *Subject:* Re: [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-0= 1 > > > > Should this be discussed in dots as well? > > > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: *I2nsf on behalf o= f Luyuan Fang < > lufang@microsoft.com> > *=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=9F: *2016=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8828=E6=97=A5 =E6=98=9F=E6=9C= =9F=E4=B8=80 =E4=B8=8A=E5=8D=8811:44 > *=E8=87=B3: *"i2nsf@ietf.org" > *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: *"adrian@olddog.co.uk" , Linda = Dunbar < > linda.dunbar@huawei.com> > *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: *[I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigatio= n-api-01 > > > > Hi Linda, Adrian, and all, > > > > We posted draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 on 3/21. > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-= api-01 > > > > > We extend more on the DDOS attack trends we are observing and the urgent > need for automated inter-cloud/provider DDoS mitigation. We propose > categories and formats of basic set of APIs. We also address > comments/questions on 00 draft from the WG. > > > > Characteristics of the DDoS attacks that we have seen: > > 1) Growing in volume, e.g., 450 Gbps peak speed DDoS attack was observed > by an ISP in 12/2014, while over 300 Gbps DDoS attack was reported by > another provider in 2013; > > 2) Growing in frequency. > > 3) Using Cloud services to launch major attacks, especially when some > cloud services do not impose bandwidth and compute resource limitation; > > 4) Growing in sophistication: leverage vulnerable services like NTP, DNS, > and BitTorrent to amplify the available bandwidth; > > 5) Growing attack to Inter-cloud/Inter-provider connection links, large > volume attack can disrupt all cloud services traversing through the > inter-connection links. > > > > This draft is focus on Inter-Cloud/Inter-provider DDoS attack mitigation, > and may extend to more general security information exchange. We need > mechanisms which can enable DDoS mitigation across Cloud Service Provider= s > (CSPs) and Network Service Providers (NSPs). These mechanisms must suppor= t > real time, automated information exchange among CSPs and NSPs, and achiev= e > rapid protective response and effective Inter Cloud/Inter Provider DDoS > attack mitigation. > > > > We propose the following categories of basic set of Inter-cloud APIs: > > 1) Capability information exchange: Support "Query" the DDoS > capabilities from one provider to another provider. > > 2) Mitigation Request and response: One provider can "Request" for > mitigation. The provider received DDoS mitigation request can ack request= , > execute mitigation procedure, and respond back. > > 3) Monitoring and Reporting: Allow another provider to monitor DDoS > status and mitigation processes; and provide DDoS status reports to partn= er > providers. > > 4) Knowledge sharing: Allow partner providers to query for a > specific DDoS related data to enhance their DDoS resiliency and perform > coordinated mitigation whenever possible. > > > > We also propose to use REST API format (examples in the draft). > > > > We=E2=80=99d like to discuss on the list, and F2F at IETF95. We are open = to ideas, > and welcome contributions to progress the draft and make it usable for > deployment. > > > > Thanks, > > Luyuan > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ I2nsf mailing list > I2nsf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2nsf > > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > --001a114da64038c680052f320515 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
thi= s harkens back to (again):
=C2=A0=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc6046/

The abstract / intro to your docu= ment talks about some specifics for problems, which generally all users of = the network have. I don't see how/why solving for 'cloud' is di= fferent than solving for 'cableco'.

DOTS proposes similar 'tell people I need help'= ; bits.
INCH di= d this with RID in ~2010.
Arbor does this with fingerprint-sharing.

I don't know that a third or fourth methodo= logy is really going to move the needle here, is it?


On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 12:17 AM, Luyu= an Fang <lufang@microsoft.com> wrote:

Yes! Thx, Dacheng.<= /u>

Adding DOTS here.

Luyuan

<= span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0

From: Dacheng Zhang [mailto:dacheng.zdc@alibaba-inc.com= ]
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 8:59 PM
To: Luyuan Fang <lufang@microsoft.com>; i2nsf@ietf.org
Cc: adrian@= olddog.co.uk; Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-ap= i-01

=C2=A0

Should = this be discussed in dots as well?

= =C2=A0

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA= : I2nsf <i2nsf-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf = of Luyuan Fang <lufang@microsoft.com>
=E6= =97=A5=E6=9C=9F: 2016=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8828=E6=97=A5 =E6=98= =9F=E6=9C=9F=E4=B8=80 =E4=B8= =8A=E5=8D=8811:44
=E8= =87=B3: "i2nsf@ietf.org" <i2nsf@ietf.org>
=E6= =8A=84=E9=80=81: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Lin= da Dunbar <= linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
=E4= =B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud= -ddos-mitigation-api-01

=C2=A0

Hi Linda, Adrian, and al= l,

=C2=A0

We posted draft-fang-i2n= sf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 on 3/21.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fang-i2nsf-inte= r-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01

=C2=A0

We extend more on the DDOS attack trends we = are observing and the urgent need for automated inter-cloud/provider DDoS m= itigation. We propose categories and formats of basic set of APIs. We also = address comments/questions on 00 draft from the WG.

=C2=A0

Characteristics of the D= DoS attacks that we have seen:

1) Growing in volume, e.g., 450 Gbps peak speed DDoS attack was observed= by an ISP in 12/2014, while over 300 Gbps DDoS attack was reported by anot= her provider in 2013;

2) Growing in frequency.

3) Using Cloud services to launch major attacks, especially when some cl= oud services do not impose bandwidth and compute resource limitation;

4) Growing in sophistication: leverage vulnerable services like NTP, DNS= , and BitTorrent to amplify the available bandwidth;

5) Growing attack to Inter-cloud/Inter-provider connection links, large = volume attack can disrupt all cloud services traversing through the inter-c= onnection links.

=C2=A0

This draft is focus on I= nter-Cloud/Inter-provider DDoS attack mitigation, and may extend to more ge= neral security information exchange. We need mechanisms which can enable DD= oS mitigation across Cloud Service Providers (CSPs) and Network Service Providers (NSPs). These mechanisms must support= real time, automated information exchange among CSPs and NSPs, and achieve= rapid protective response and effective Inter Cloud/Inter Provider DDoS at= tack mitigation.

=C2=A0

We propose the following= categories of basic set of Inter-cloud APIs:

1)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Capability informat= ion exchange: Support "Query" the DDoS capabilities from one prov= ider to another provider.

2)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Mitigation Request = and response: One provider can "Request" for mitigation. The prov= ider received DDoS mitigation request can ack request, execute mitigation p= rocedure, =C2=A0and respond back.

3)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Monitoring and Repo= rting: Allow another provider to monitor DDoS status and mitigation process= es; and provide DDoS status reports to partner providers.

4)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Knowledge sharing: = Allow partner providers to query for a specific DDoS related data to enhanc= e their DDoS resiliency and perform coordinated mitigation whenever possibl= e.

=C2=A0

We also propose to use R= EST API format (examples in the draft).

=C2=A0

We=E2=80=99d like to dis= cuss on the list, and F2F at IETF95. We are open to ideas, and welcome cont= ributions to progress the draft and make it usable for deployment.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Luyuan

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________ I2nsf mailing l= ist I2nsf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2nsf


_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots


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[202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id tb10sm44382057pab.22.2016.03.29.09.15.54 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 29 Mar 2016 09:15:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: "Christopher Morrow" Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 23:15:51 +0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Cc: "Roman D. Danyliw" , "i2nsf@ietf.org" , dots , Linda Dunbar , Tobias Gondrom , Dacheng Zhang , "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , Luyuan Fang Subject: Re: [Dots] [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 16:20:33 -0000 On 29 Mar 2016, at 22:52, Christopher Morrow wrote: > I don't see how/why solving for 'cloud' is different than solving for > 'cableco'. Correct. Which is why the use-cases in draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01 are archetypes which apply to *all* different types of networks; they're just different signaling/operational models and node types. This is clearly demonstrated in the .pdf preso for draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-00 (soon to be updated for -01), which demonstrates multiple variations on a single theme: 'Use-cases . . . are not exhaustive, are illustrative.' Any of the networks depicted could be transit backbones, hosters, 'cloud', VPS, broadband access, colo, ASPs, CDNs, et. al. > Arbor does this with fingerprint-sharing. Cloud Signaling, which is relatively new, is a bit closer, but there's definitely some overlap. But those are proprietary, and folks want an open standard so that they can mix-and-match at will - which is as it should be. > I don't know that a third or fourth methodology is really going to > move the needle here, is it? Concur 100%. Left hand, meet right hand. ;> This is not an API type of application - it rises to the level of a protocol. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Tue Mar 29 15:30:49 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4319E12DA38 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 15:30:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pwy9PrcvA0zK for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 15:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plainfield.sei.cmu.edu (plainfield.sei.cmu.edu [192.58.107.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91FF012D996 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 15:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pawpaw.sei.cmu.edu (pawpaw.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.21.22]) by plainfield.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id u2TMUiVq019950 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 18:30:44 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cert.org; s=jthatj15xw2j; t=1459290644; bh=+8Mp8tbSBQhUHg0WESEhBf23qG55VQzOJu4ujSMLawU=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: In-Reply-To:References; b=S7zp8pUaSYuIkYlVHfvHdWa90b/4KSCEaycB1IVZ+bbWGogcb40l2utYdnnuotjj+ kAuWyFAFCblOWtFWbFQuU5UQCn0KbiK9029/aJ2NSAtRwWznjAdNIkJ29+kX69sfOR T39nHy3l+e7XJ8nyT1FOkz0H87PuuvMs+/EHbUAM= Received: from CASCADE.ad.sei.cmu.edu (cascade.ad.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.28.248]) by pawpaw.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id u2TMUfUo019956 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 18:30:41 -0400 Received: from MARATHON.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.250]) by CASCADE.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.248]) with mapi id 14.03.0266.001; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 18:30:41 -0400 From: "Roman D. Danyliw" To: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Unique use cases Thread-Index: AdGKCJbai02bV9oeSSmarut46dOgpA== Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 22:30:41 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96F75B8@marathon> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] Unique use cases X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 22:30:47 -0000 Hello! There have been three drafts to date describing use cases for DOTS: ** [WG-UC] draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01 ** [ID-UC] draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-usecases-01 ** [IDC-UC] draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00 [WG-UC] describes 7 primary use cases (numbered [WG-UC]-1 to [WG-UC]-7); [I= D-UC] describes 5 uses cases; and [IDC-UC] describes 2 use cases. Of these= 14 use cases across three drafts, are any: duplicates? more specific insta= nces of another use case? appropriate for a more generalized use case? (1) What's the difference between [WG-UC]'s [WG-UC]-2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 beyond= the kind of device acting as the DOTS client? The write-ups are nearly id= entical. (2) What's the difference between [ID-UC]'s [UD-UC]-1 (Section 4.1.1) and 2= (Section 4.1.2); and [WG-UC]-1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6? (3) What's the difference between [ID-UC]'s [ID-UC]-3 (Section 4.2.1) and [= ID-UC]-4 (Section 4.2.2); and [IDC-UC]-1 (Section 3.1)? (4) [ID-UC]-5 and [IDC-UC]-2 appear to be acknowledged as the same use case= in Section 4.2.3 of [ID-UC]. Is that correct? Roman From nobody Tue Mar 29 19:36:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F055E12DB5D; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 19:36:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.012 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.012 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dIFVviNqMcmJ; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 19:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1bon0798.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::1:798]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEFC012DB58; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 19:36:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=selector1; h=From:To:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=hrxD3QJyliqPmOVM6FmMzB8pjrshlO+YYx3ufEY/Lsw=; b=JPORzoV4PO1joxt4mgKoN7xaSpzAV/psS6YRysGNaRK0qpWlUvH3bH929hCOpn3N68CeWX/AN0CeTH7rR36Xjo+0b9ekE1iaycgJVDR9mX6k8fgJFCNqpjsR077R06yTDR+oBvGTycKf/07HLw5ZDhA5Ob2IxIJjf4S8m9MxkTo= Received: from DM2PR0301MB0704.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.160.97.12) by DM2PR0301MB0703.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.160.97.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.434.16; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 02:36:09 +0000 Received: from DM2PR0301MB0704.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.160.97.12]) by DM2PR0301MB0704.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.160.97.12]) with mapi id 15.01.0434.023; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 02:36:09 +0000 From: Luyuan Fang To: Christopher Morrow Thread-Topic: [Dots] [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 Thread-Index: AQHRiKYYm831DwqtRTeIQOft/wHvcJ9uP0+ggAJVdoCAAB+KwA== Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 02:36:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=microsoft.com; x-originating-ip: [167.220.2.100] x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: a22afced-104e-411e-e6de-08d358440d3c x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DM2PR0301MB0703; 5:Lni+n5hzRmbL6el/QJTrejTuvYcdC5w1oAaWYg2vmjwF4KGfnpomh4Yer6jg+xjUyZ5su8QKPNenR2o97xWEuzXk9hV3uSf0RjUfgPBvmghPe9xV9n8+BqhEudm0UR96cFysDcxd4gL8shvwWE7VUQ==; 24:7mkLu/dSqq8rNSaVVqm7K810gM/KZeBgiIW3pDNmYXvnfeCISDp3hNSNcNpAzZSZasYaBU+KxLXVymn4MqEX/MNIR8XT9vcICtRevy2SvPA= x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:DM2PR0301MB0703; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(61425038)(601004)(2401047)(5005006)(8121501046)(10201501046)(3002001)(61426038)(61427038); SRVR:DM2PR0301MB0703; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DM2PR0301MB0703; x-forefront-prvs: 08978A8F5C x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(377454003)(164054003)(24454002)(19609705001)(74316001)(86362001)(99286002)(76576001)(10290500002)(189998001)(54356999)(5005710100001)(86612001)(50986999)(3280700002)(16236675004)(106116001)(76176999)(11100500001)(66066001)(10400500002)(87936001)(3660700001)(5003600100002)(122556002)(19617315012)(10090500001)(19580405001)(230783001)(8990500004)(1220700001)(1096002)(15975445007)(19580395003)(19300405004)(2900100001)(92566002)(5002640100001)(4326007)(5008740100001)(33656002)(586003)(110136002)(790700001)(2906002)(77096005)(102836003)(5004730100002)(3846002)(6116002)(19625215002)(81166005)(2950100001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DM2PR0301MB0703; H:DM2PR0301MB0704.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DM2PR0301MB0704CAC4C26B615397C3AE2BD6980DM2PR0301MB0704_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Mar 2016 02:36:09.0456 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM2PR0301MB0703 Archived-At: Cc: "Roman D. Danyliw" , "i2nsf@ietf.org" , dots , Linda Dunbar , Tobias Gondrom , "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , Dacheng Zhang Subject: Re: [Dots] [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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Luyuan Fang To: Roland Dobbins , Christopher Morrow Thread-Topic: [Dots] [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 Thread-Index: AQHRiKYYm831DwqtRTeIQOft/wHvcJ9uP0+ggAJVdoCAAAZ0gIAArYPw Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 02:51:01 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: arbor.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;arbor.net; dmarc=none action=none header.from=microsoft.com; x-originating-ip: [167.220.2.100] x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c3cd3b03-9a61-45e0-9239-08d3584620ea x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DM2PR0301MB0703; 5:KQ0cRcjErTIPxACZE4GRFYTImaoFOlxopPxpTmvzVPmNLUk4EpwlHFfw9+IMcfu5kwp0658lMvKlSRopnC8rwtkMGgwh/QRaApwoIgNbG+zqeP/0FaP+F9rQuuxJ4O2Enzrm73DrrflxH3/SHzFshg==; 24:2+yg9jOrTN5Dv50FbOnEmiC8byGFHkc8glEIxEKgu/bmu5wMRJlvM8mCsfk51iyEtqKf2UfBS1DogbN5r/Ucuz8jJdA/qbuOCV9I/V+ebfk= x-microsoft-antispam: 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Danyliw" , "i2nsf@ietf.org" , dots , Linda Dunbar , Tobias Gondrom , "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , Dacheng Zhang Subject: Re: [Dots] [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 02:51:08 -0000 Hi Roland, Thx for your discussion. I pretty much explained our use case in the last r= eply to Christopher. No argument, draft-ietf-dots-use-cases is a good draft. In addition to signaling mechanism, we also need more general ways to excha= nge especially between providers.=20 Inter-provider is very different from intra-region/inter-region within our = own Cloud/Networks, and it is different from between provider and individua= l customers.=20 Thanks, Luyuan -----Original Message----- From: Roland Dobbins [mailto:rdobbins@arbor.net]=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 9:16 AM To: Christopher Morrow Cc: Luyuan Fang ; Roman D. Danyliw ; i2= nsf@ietf.org; dots ; Linda Dunbar ;= Tobias Gondrom ; adrian@olddog.co.uk; Dacheng = Zhang Subject: Re: [Dots] [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-ap= i-01 On 29 Mar 2016, at 22:52, Christopher Morrow wrote: > I don't see how/why solving for 'cloud' is different than solving for=20 > 'cableco'. Correct. Which is why the use-cases in draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01 are ar= chetypes which apply to *all* different types of networks; they're just dif= ferent signaling/operational models and node types. This is clearly demonstrated in the .pdf preso for draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-00 (soon to be updated for -01), which demonstrat= es multiple variations on a single theme: 'Use-cases . . . are not exhaustive, are illustrative.' Any of the networks depicted could be transit backbones, hosters, 'cloud', = VPS, broadband access, colo, ASPs, CDNs, et. al. > Arbor does this with fingerprint-sharing. Cloud Signaling, which is relatively new, is a bit closer, but there's defi= nitely some overlap. But those are proprietary, and folks want an open standard so that they can= mix-and-match at will - which is as it should be. > I don't know that a third or fourth methodology is really going to=20 > move the needle here, is it? Concur 100%. Left hand, meet right hand. ;> This is not an API type of application - it rises to the level of a protoco= l. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Tue Mar 29 20:30:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 037AB12DC8E; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 20:29:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.71 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.71 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ELTh2DMAjppe; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 20:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x22c.google.com (mail-yw0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32E0612DC85; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 20:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id h129so43500646ywb.1; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 20:29:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc; bh=qsBgs2gddCwuTOCH2EQkqTmT7fKBVa92SW8mukGG7FM=; b=ZQAR1es9ZH4FWWP8BB42oTKfpTsBxKriswDxvbCbuSZru58XPUAB99HBY0NlGfZXQ0 dGciELhFuvUlFNVdxFgHlZUCjVhcRs2jX0XdzzeBf9NqQfhr1hd+H3ed5Ey4lEZ1YteL W09TxbpA0AUG6WZ7295RVh6mZuIybl0k2F9s+7DwO42k8mWkeWqS1H+NRk+amkWnALTA 26AUiEWGM1KLVGC7cd5WDPZyU/N3IiiHQecgIbYjHKRAOwNFCPCL4ENJydbRbpkRfgeF R9TLWl9IPGN5aBQSGFVkXetB8X7PshRMhmKvOPKkzGwFvIYgJBvdCqSWmX0ouNI/BSnv 6DqA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=qsBgs2gddCwuTOCH2EQkqTmT7fKBVa92SW8mukGG7FM=; b=a6WcQYnvXs7xR3AFqQlJBptRpl0sIJjNYiyJR2V0W4KyPB1NI0riAlT5fTg7tgdFaW Q14AwKVSkggNRXTmIx/meSibrOr8RjaiHt7pjPaerKv/53N+heTLkT0ssuWT5jwcunhr oZgfUhtZRkHtA7ajCu/66hEamjeyg3rvcdZRy+ntp1ORoGNDb2D9XdMucbYNdMciNSNW yqKt4tuudNBj8dFrJSKcl6X+dxoMizS129BcxIN3NqULDA4EGw7WRTKNtWNk4wZfM6an hK5+lOrnONrOMivgsuM899Ppj6LF/9OsznAc/MPcgyy/KkhThwBJdve6usHIKDMt54ze gA1Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIb4DdGOAM3kRPDfBfLwiCDcKZCpFWZvtaWgjcw1HrA7++RiDLrZj0syjg28N09EEvqDdbhXSNZe+J0oQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.13.205.198 with SMTP id p189mr3176666ywd.180.1459308592319; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 20:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Sender: christopher.morrow@gmail.com Received: by 10.13.209.198 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 20:29:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 23:29:52 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: vhOpWBXQ6qa0BFY9mMdXfW6fQkE Message-ID: From: Christopher Morrow To: Luyuan Fang Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114da656435598052f3bc20e Archived-At: Cc: "Roman D. Danyliw" , "i2nsf@ietf.org" , dots , Linda Dunbar , Tobias Gondrom , "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , Dacheng Zhang Subject: Re: [Dots] [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 03:29:56 -0000 --001a114da656435598052f3bc20e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 10:36 PM, Luyuan Fang wrote: > Christopher, > > > > Thanks for your comments. See in-line with [lf]. > > > > *From:* christopher.morrow@gmail.com [mailto:christopher.morrow@gmail.com= ] > *On Behalf Of *Christopher Morrow > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 29, 2016 8:53 AM > *To:* Luyuan Fang > *Cc:* Dacheng Zhang ; i2nsf@ietf.org; dots < > dots@ietf.org>; Roman D. Danyliw ; adrian@olddog.co.uk; > Tobias Gondrom ; Linda Dunbar < > linda.dunbar@huawei.com> > *Subject:* Re: [Dots] [I2nsf] > draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 > > > > this harkens back to (again): > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc6046/ > > > > > The abstract / intro to your document talks about some specifics for > problems, which generally all users of the network have. I don't see > how/why solving for 'cloud' is different than solving for 'cableco'. > > > > [lf]: We deliver cloud services through inter-connecting our Cloud > networks (overlay and underlay) to other Cloud or Network providers/ISP > (treated as underlay carrier in most cases). > =E2=80=8Bsure.=E2=80=8B > It is not quite the same as inter-connect two carriers as I worked in the > past in ISP space. We also had some thought on asking ISP to help impleme= nt > certain policies which can help to reduce risk/noise, etc. > > But I agree what we are talking in the draft is rather general. Wording > can be modified. > > > =E2=80=8Bit looks a lot like isp interconnects to me.=E2=80=8B > DOTS proposes similar 'tell people I need help' bits. > > INCH did this with RID in ~2010. > > Arbor does this with fingerprint-sharing. > > > > I don't know that a third or fourth methodology is really going to move > the needle here, is it? > > > > [lf] > > I don=E2=80=99t see we conflict with DOTS, we contribute and want to see = progress > in DDoS too. > =E2=80=8Bit's not about a conflict, to me anyway, it's about: "How is this = going to succeed where all other equivalent attempts have failed?"=E2=80=8B (sure, d= ots hasn't gotten out of the gate, but inch/rid did... and it's a standard already) > In addition to signaling, we need general way to exchange info between > providers, and we need them as standards since it is inter-provider. > > These requirements come from our cloud production. > > > =E2=80=8Bok, sure. but... inch/rid already is a standard, and already does = a bunch of what you want.=E2=80=8B > Thanks, > > Luyuan > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 12:17 AM, Luyuan Fang > wrote: > > Yes! Thx, Dacheng. > > Adding DOTS here. > > Luyuan > > > > *From:* Dacheng Zhang [mailto:dacheng.zdc@alibaba-inc.com] > *Sent:* Sunday, March 27, 2016 8:59 PM > *To:* Luyuan Fang ; i2nsf@ietf.org > *Cc:* adrian@olddog.co.uk; Linda Dunbar > *Subject:* Re: [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-0= 1 > > > > Should this be discussed in dots as well? > > > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: *I2nsf on behalf o= f Luyuan Fang < > lufang@microsoft.com> > *=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=9F: *2016=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8828=E6=97=A5 =E6=98=9F=E6=9C= =9F=E4=B8=80 =E4=B8=8A=E5=8D=8811:44 > *=E8=87=B3: *"i2nsf@ietf.org" > *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: *"adrian@olddog.co.uk" , Linda = Dunbar < > linda.dunbar@huawei.com> > *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: *[I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigatio= n-api-01 > > > > Hi Linda, Adrian, and all, > > > > We posted draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 on 3/21. > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-= api-01 > > > > > We extend more on the DDOS attack trends we are observing and the urgent > need for automated inter-cloud/provider DDoS mitigation. We propose > categories and formats of basic set of APIs. We also address > comments/questions on 00 draft from the WG. > > > > Characteristics of the DDoS attacks that we have seen: > > 1) Growing in volume, e.g., 450 Gbps peak speed DDoS attack was observed > by an ISP in 12/2014, while over 300 Gbps DDoS attack was reported by > another provider in 2013; > > 2) Growing in frequency. > > 3) Using Cloud services to launch major attacks, especially when some > cloud services do not impose bandwidth and compute resource limitation; > > 4) Growing in sophistication: leverage vulnerable services like NTP, DNS, > and BitTorrent to amplify the available bandwidth; > > 5) Growing attack to Inter-cloud/Inter-provider connection links, large > volume attack can disrupt all cloud services traversing through the > inter-connection links. > > > > This draft is focus on Inter-Cloud/Inter-provider DDoS attack mitigation, > and may extend to more general security information exchange. We need > mechanisms which can enable DDoS mitigation across Cloud Service Provider= s > (CSPs) and Network Service Providers (NSPs). These mechanisms must suppor= t > real time, automated information exchange among CSPs and NSPs, and achiev= e > rapid protective response and effective Inter Cloud/Inter Provider DDoS > attack mitigation. > > > > We propose the following categories of basic set of Inter-cloud APIs: > > 1) Capability information exchange: Support "Query" the DDoS > capabilities from one provider to another provider. > > 2) Mitigation Request and response: One provider can "Request" for > mitigation. The provider received DDoS mitigation request can ack request= , > execute mitigation procedure, and respond back. > > 3) Monitoring and Reporting: Allow another provider to monitor DDoS > status and mitigation processes; and provide DDoS status reports to partn= er > providers. > > 4) Knowledge sharing: Allow partner providers to query for a > specific DDoS related data to enhance their DDoS resiliency and perform > coordinated mitigation whenever possible. > > > > We also propose to use REST API format (examples in the draft). > > > > We=E2=80=99d like to discuss on the list, and F2F at IETF95. We are open = to ideas, > and welcome contributions to progress the draft and make it usable for > deployment. > > > > Thanks, > > Luyuan > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ I2nsf mailing list > I2nsf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2nsf > > > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > > > --001a114da656435598052f3bc20e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tue, Ma= r 29, 2016 at 10:36 PM, Luyuan Fang <lufang@microsoft.com> wrote:

Christopher,

=C2=A0

Thanks for your comments. See in-line= with [lf].

=C2=A0

From: christopher.morrow@gmail.com [mailt= o:christo= pher.morrow@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Morrow
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 8:53 AM
To: Luyuan Fang <lufang@microsoft.com>
Cc: Dacheng Zhang <dacheng.zdc@alibaba-inc.com>; i2nsf@ietf.org; dots <dots@ietf.org>; Roman D. Danyl= iw <rdd@cert.org&g= t;; adrian@olddog.= co.uk; Tobias Gondrom <tobias.gondrom@gondrom.org>; Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huaw= ei.com>
Subject: Re: [Dots] [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitiga= tion-api-01

=C2=A0

this harkens back to (again):
=C2=A0=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc6046/=

=C2=A0

The abstract / intro to your document talks about so= me specifics for problems, which generally all users of the network have. I= don't see how/why solving for 'cloud' is different than solvin= g for 'cableco'.

=C2=A0

[lf]: We deliver cloud service= s through inter-connecting our Cloud networks (overlay and underlay) to oth= er Cloud or Network providers/ISP (treated as underlay carrier in most cases).


=E2= =80=8Bsure.=E2=80=8B

=C2=A0
=

It is not quite the same as inter-con= nect two carriers as I worked in the past in ISP space. We also had some th= ought on asking ISP to help implement certain policies which can help to reduce risk/noise, etc.

But I agree what we are talking in th= e draft is rather general. Wording can be modified.

=C2=A0


=E2=80=8Bit looks a lot like isp interconnects to me.=E2=80=8B
=C2=A0

DOTS proposes similar 'tell people I need help&#= 39; bits.

INCH did this with RID in ~2010.

Arbor does this with fingerprint-sharing.<= /u>

=C2=A0

I don't know that a third or fourth methodology = is really going to move the needle here, is it?

=C2=A0

[lf]

I don=E2=80=99t see we conflict with = DOTS, we contribute and want to see progress in DDoS too.

<= /div>

=E2=80=8Bit's not about a conflict, to me= anyway, it's about: "How is this going to succeed where all other= equivalent attempts have failed?"=E2=80=8B (sure, dots hasn't got= ten out of the gate, but inch/rid did... and it's a standard already)
=C2=A0

In addition to signaling, we need gen= eral way to exchange info between providers, and we need them as standards = since it is inter-provider.

These requirements come from our clou= d production.

=C2=A0

<= /div>

=E2=80=8Bok, sure. but... inch/rid already is a sta= ndard, and already does a bunch of what you want.=E2=80=8B

<= div>=C2=A0

Thanks,

Luyuan

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 12:17 AM, Luyuan Fang <lufang@microsoft.co= m> wrote:

Yes! Thx, Dacheng.

Adding DOTS here.

Luyuan

=C2=A0=

From: Dacheng Zhang [mailto:dacheng.zdc@alibaba-inc.com= ]
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 8:59 PM
To: Luyuan Fang <lufang@microsoft.com>; i2nsf@ietf.org
Cc: adrian@= olddog.co.uk; Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-ap= i-01

=C2=A0

Should = this be discussed in dots as well?

=C2=A0<= /span>

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA= : I2nsf <i2nsf-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf = of Luyuan Fang <lufang@microsoft.com>
=E6= =97=A5=E6=9C=9F: 2016=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8828=E6=97=A5 =E6=98= =9F=E6=9C=9F=E4=B8=80 =E4=B8= =8A=E5=8D=8811:44
=E8= =87=B3: "i2nsf@ietf.org" <i2nsf@ietf.org>
=E6= =8A=84=E9=80=81: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Lin= da Dunbar <= linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
=E4= =B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud= -ddos-mitigation-api-01

=C2=A0

Hi Linda, Adrian, and al= l,

=C2=A0<= /u>

We posted draft-fang-i2n= sf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 on 3/21.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fang-i2nsf-inte= r-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01

=C2=A0<= /u>

We extend more on the DDOS attack trends we = are observing and the urgent need for automated inter-cloud/provider DDoS m= itigation. We propose categories and formats of basic set of APIs. We also = address comments/questions on 00 draft from the WG.

=C2=A0<= /u>

Characteristics of the D= DoS attacks that we have seen:

1) Growing in volume, e.g., 450 Gbps peak speed= DDoS attack was observed by an ISP in 12/2014, while over 300 Gbps DDoS at= tack was reported by another provider in 2013;

2) Growing in frequency. <= /p>

3) Using Cloud services to launch major attacks= , especially when some cloud services do not impose bandwidth and compute r= esource limitation;

4) Growing in sophistication: leverage vulnerab= le services like NTP, DNS, and BitTorrent to amplify the available bandwidt= h;

5) Growing attack to Inter-cloud/Inter-provider= connection links, large volume attack can disrupt all cloud services trave= rsing through the inter-connection links.

=C2=A0<= /u>

This draft is focus on I= nter-Cloud/Inter-provider DDoS attack mitigation, and may extend to more ge= neral security information exchange. We need mechanisms which can enable DDoS mitigation across Cloud Service Providers (CSPs) and= Network Service Providers (NSPs). These mechanisms must support real time,= automated information exchange among CSPs and NSPs, and achieve rapid prot= ective response and effective Inter Cloud/Inter Provider DDoS attack mitigation.

=C2=A0<= /u>

We propose the following= categories of basic set of Inter-cloud APIs:

1)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Capability information exchange: Support= "Query" the DDoS capabilities from one provider to another provi= der.

2)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Mitigation Request and response: One pro= vider can "Request" for mitigation. The provider received DDoS mi= tigation request can ack request, execute mitigation procedure, =C2=A0and r= espond back.

3)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Monitoring and Reporting: Allow another = provider to monitor DDoS status and mitigation processes; and provide DDoS = status reports to partner providers.

4)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Knowledge sharing: Allow partner provide= rs to query for a specific DDoS related data to enhance their DDoS resilien= cy and perform coordinated mitigation whenever possible.

=C2=A0<= /u>

We also propose to use R= EST API format (examples in the draft).

=C2=A0<= /u>

We=E2=80=99d like to dis= cuss on the list, and F2F at IETF95. We are open to ideas, and welcome cont= ributions to progress the draft and make it usable for deployment.

=C2=A0<= /u>

Thanks,=

Luyuan<= /u>

=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0<= /u>

_______________________________________________ I2nsf mailing l= ist I2nsf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2nsf


_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots=

=C2=A0


--001a114da656435598052f3bc20e-- From nobody Wed Mar 30 00:32:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA0CE12D0DA for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 00:32:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jpYUBOy9Cc30 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 00:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x234.google.com (mail-pf0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8035C12D0C5 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 00:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x234.google.com with SMTP id x3so35293820pfb.1 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 00:32:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version; bh=zp20zsA1wmHGo49iS7o8aZkOFFw5RVbA54CblWMkfv4=; b=AA8Yb6vaQDdUV24b59Kn6Y5ZLa102OBME+ra/1eiLiXFPaY4McicA4dvkfCQPrN4rK i+xVfW2Di2fVt1UGoZXmoxJ7+/6C2KItoy+uYnbWFjli2OB/hmin/wW1ql1GLgvBbBAY VFBQ19IzU2Y4Xc+W5UMbPSAlINMWUT2Z5L2PU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=zp20zsA1wmHGo49iS7o8aZkOFFw5RVbA54CblWMkfv4=; b=Y0N887+SVzXC0o45oJ9zg4RkTAAW1/sRM7RlL37uZ6DLp+s9p4I6TIc8IlSHiY8SwT yI0g18Ro/zkxkFEgYg3booeDAwwNM5wTLTMeyAkRdL8yYDZKujBGu1e3RxXPpNN5ruzI nknzTAG6BVbsamdK9RkhTlYrZI+vmuhzFIU4ukxsdfavUMH+aI6CKpQT//+8SItuMpD/ QIK/CzO/hLPSpozR8GnMUcnyLVf7CCu+WUI/J7mF6nh9QduAtE2fmJShbog+11mqC+4v rNRq2PyGLWgGnH3NbshKM4oJIDXhsV3hio4RztLXd9VS/uesd4bK40wQdtBWZb/uRPdM mzpw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLXEWCEi598QsLkoKxJkVRNL4hjAsXIa9fDIE8zHmcH2SXQ12zCe2Pii56yH9/Vy5i9 X-Received: by 10.98.89.209 with SMTP id k78mr10593656pfj.56.1459323160015; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 00:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.144] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x64sm3299423pfa.72.2016.03.30.00.32.35 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 30 Mar 2016 00:32:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: "Luyuan Fang" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 14:32:33 +0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Cc: "Roman D. Danyliw" , "i2nsf@ietf.org" , Christopher Morrow , dots , Linda Dunbar , Tobias Gondrom , "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , Dacheng Zhang Subject: Re: [Dots] [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 07:32:42 -0000 On 30 Mar 2016, at 9:51, Luyuan Fang wrote: > Inter-provider is very different from intra-region/inter-region within > our own Cloud/Networks, and it is different from between provider and > individual customers. Different in what way(s)? ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Wed Mar 30 05:06:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EF7A12D6A0 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 05:06:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pFvGZd9Zm5B9 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 05:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x22c.google.com (mail-pa0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C984C12D6BF for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 05:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id fe3so39513448pab.1 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 05:04:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=p+4I05j5aLUPzq4WM8BjaOguBo66ApyEqYMtL8zT5RE=; b=fZ+bBMfwEX0IdumIfK7FlJCmSnAyozBnXgqhXikI/BHCocOdBa6bEZIqu21U8uJbMG /LomLnB2LJKHPrbUet0GgSTu/RkC0QL1P/Oa698hflS4vnbVwGKTrQCCxCiDHuO+oejE dm8OKWlS9+lXIV/buiU9n+AAm4bSUXm8uhbbQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=p+4I05j5aLUPzq4WM8BjaOguBo66ApyEqYMtL8zT5RE=; b=M0oNOI1IqAw2KuEuxjK6+7XDGmvroTHfZk5o/hqAyXCe2ce3cY0spy13gqJ9yESWIg k76rR5uvO9zih+qj0s2aEBRDjWp63/JDWS8Us2fwyYGG3MO7zmWzdICK7mrExgeylmlz JtDoFgypkPegoP7wu/KT3C4dxRODoVIXe/8sYZcRjTE+38C64Vmg3RLN82hmj7ks8ypr bxStno2jtJ85elsl1gA3CBRLYji1KcB2aBfoAUNpZAKoM/21zZwHFGILTIx01rYBflVc qBCvZT0KaWL/pxN89dVXQRp21i4Yb1ZOI3SV9tLBzS/dAAkN16jovLA5M3D9Ox8SNhuL BmEQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLY7lsx0ejRl8q7aBjAxZ6oUCVL/slYAuZ1gFdgLBtT9cYvtxZZ+zr06ViJCl/w614o X-Received: by 10.66.190.168 with SMTP id gr8mr12470343pac.23.1459339488395; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 05:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.144] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r68sm5564055pfb.51.2016.03.30.05.04.46 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 30 Mar 2016 05:04:47 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: "dots@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 19:04:43 +0700 Message-ID: <794C446F-DDB2-4583-A9A9-7ACE67C0192A@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96F75B8@marathon> References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96F75B8@marathon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Unique use cases X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 12:06:17 -0000 On 30 Mar 2016, at 5:30, Roman D. Danyliw wrote: > [WG-UC] describes 7 primary use cases (numbered [WG-UC]-1 to > [WG-UC]-7); [ID-UC] describes 5 uses cases; and [IDC-UC] describes 2 > use cases. The ancillary use-cases in [WG-UC] are also relevant. Note that the other cited drafts do not appear to acknowledge or evince awareness of the existence of significant provisioning challenges with regards to DDoS mitigation services, nor do they address the potential benefits of information sharing with interested and authorized third parties. > Of these 14 use cases across three drafts, are any: duplicates? more > specific instances of another use case? appropriate for a more > generalized use case? The 9 total use-cases described in [WG-UC] are communications/operational model archetypes, which can be generalized across any type of network in any topological scenario. [ID-UC] is overly prescriptive, gets into details of detection, classification, traceback, and mitigation mechanisms which are themselves beyond the scope of the DOTS WG; makes (yet another) ill-advised attempt to re-implement part of IPFIX within DOTS, badly; utilizes nonstandard terminology; makes artificial, irrelevant distinctions between single-homed and multi-homed topologies; and duplicates some elements of [WG-UC]. The above comments apply to [IDC-UC], as well. It is unclear why both [ID-UC] and [IDC-UC] are thought necessary, except to promulgate the idea that there is some dichotomy between inter- and intra-domain DOTS use-cases. As discussed previously, there are few if any discernible differences between inter- and intra-domain DOTS uses cases, within the context of DOTS itself. The main actual differences consist of administrative procedures which are external to DOTS. By way of contrast, [WG-UC] recognizes that the details of detection, classification, traceback, and mitigation mechanisms; telemetry formats; topological details; and network operator types are superfluous to understanding the common communications models between DOTS nodes and the functional roles of DOTS in typical attack/mitigation scenarios. This is why [WG-UC] doesn't dive into those details - they are a distraction which gives the false impression that designing DOTS is a complex endeavor which has to take into account all kinds of situational specifics, when in reality it is a straightforward matter to which such external complexities are largely irrelevant. > > (1) What's the difference between [WG-UC]'s [WG-UC]-2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 > beyond the kind of device acting as the DOTS client? The write-ups > are nearly identical. That's the point - to illustrate that different types of devices/applications can participate in DOTS, and that all the other differences are largely irrelevant to the actual requirements of DOTS, and that DOTS has universal applicability. The use-cases in [WG-UC] are generalizable archetypes which demonstrate that the utility and applicability of DDoS Open Threat Signaling is completely independent of specific detection, classification, traceback, mitigation mechanisms, or telemetry formats; and that erroneous, unwarranted assumptions and assertions in these areas are counterproductive. DOTS should not and must not be predicated upon telemetry formats, mitigation mechanisms, and topological scenarios which are completely external and irrelevant to the necessary requirements to make DOTS a useful, functional, and universally-deployable signaling mechanism. > > (2) What's the difference between [ID-UC]'s [UD-UC]-1 (Section 4.1.1) > and 2 (Section 4.1.2); and [WG-UC]-1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6? There is no Section 4.1.1 nor Section 4.1.2 in draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01, IIRC? > > (3) What's the difference between [ID-UC]'s [ID-UC]-3 (Section 4.2.1) > and [ID-UC]-4 (Section 4.2.2); and [IDC-UC]-1 (Section 3.1)? Are you asking about the delta between the specific use cases in the two draft versions? If so, repetitive language was elided, and a bit of additional contextual clarification was added. No major changes, as these are archetypal use cases which are generalizable in nature. Additional comments about 'cloud' use cases and so forth will be covered in the accompanying preso for -01, as these are just more iterations of the same basic archetypes. > (4) [ID-UC]-5 and [IDC-UC]-2 appear to be acknowledged as the same use > case in Section 4.2.3 of [ID-UC]. Is that correct? Unfortunately, I'm very confused by all the new acronyms and reliance on numbers which don't actually appear in the documents - there is no Section 4.2.3 in draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01. Can you provide more context? Apologies for my confusion! ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Wed Mar 30 19:22:47 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92DF12D1DB; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 19:22:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.241 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.241 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lZ8pE0H6tsEU; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 19:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfwrgout.huawei.com (dfwrgout.huawei.com [206.16.17.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2BA812D193; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 19:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.9.243 (EHLO lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.9.243]) by dfwrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BOM04291; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 21:22:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SZXEMA414-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.73) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 03:21:23 +0100 Received: from SZXEMA502-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.36]) by SZXEMA414-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.73]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 10:20:58 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank)" To: Christopher Morrow , Luyuan Fang Thread-Topic: [I2nsf] [Dots] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 Thread-Index: AQHRijR1tmtXTZnru0Gfnp8+TqQ9bp9yyLRA Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 02:20:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.43.91] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F12AF2675ESZXEMA502MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A0B0203.56FC89F1.0057, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.36, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 0194e1fc8270ceff6be509b8a1211d2e Archived-At: Cc: "Roman D. Danyliw" , "i2nsf@ietf.org" , dots , Linda Dunbar , Tobias Gondrom , "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , Dacheng Zhang Subject: [Dots] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBbSTJuc2ZdIAlkcmFmdC1mYW5nLWkybnNmLWlu?= =?utf-8?q?ter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 02:22:45 -0000 --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F12AF2675ESZXEMA502MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgQ2hyaXMsDQpUaGUgZXhpc3RlZCBJT0RFRi9SSUQgc3RhbmRhcmQgaGFzIGl0cyBvd24gc2Nl bmFyaW9zLCBnb2Fscywgc2NvcGUgZnJvbSB3aGF0IGRvdHMgaXMgaGF2aW5nIG5vdywgYXMgd2Ug YWxsIGtub3d+fg0KDQpNeSB1bmRlcnN0YW5kaW5nIGFib3V0IEx1eXVhbuKAmXMgZHJhZnQgaXMg dGhhdCBpdCBpcyBmb2N1c2VkIG9uIHRoZSBkZG9zIHByb3RlY3Rpb24gc2lnbmFsaW5nIHJlcXVp cmVtZW50cyBhbmQgc29tZSBwcmFjdGljYWwgc2lnbmFsaW5nLCBlc3BlY2lhbGx5IGZvciB0aGUg aW50ZXItY2xvdWQgc2l0dWF0aW9uLCB3aGljaCBJIHRoaW5rIGlzIGEgcmVhbCBhbmQgaW1wb3J0 YW50IHVzZSBjYXNlIGZvciBET1RTIHdvcmsuDQpJIGFncmVlIHRoYXQgdGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gZXNz ZW50aWFsIGRpZmZlcmVuY2UgYmV0d2VlbiBpbnRlci1jbG91ZCAob3ZlcmxheSB0byB1bmRlcmxh eSkgYW5kIGludGVyLWRvbWFpbiAocGVlciB0byBwZWVyKS4gU28sIHRvZ2V0aGVyIHdpdGggb3Ro 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ZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F12AF2675ESZXEMA502MBSchi_-- From nobody Wed Mar 30 19:44:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B83212D6E6 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 19:44:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.231 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.231 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bn1Wtdl8zUr5 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 19:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfwrgout.huawei.com (dfwrgout.huawei.com [206.16.17.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 284D112D548 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 19:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.9.243 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.9.243]) by dfwrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BOM05876; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 21:44:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SZXEMA411-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.70) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.130) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 03:44:17 +0100 Received: from SZXEMA502-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.36]) by szxema411-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 10:44:03 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank)" To: "Roman D. Danyliw" , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Unique use cases Thread-Index: AdGKCJbai02bV9oeSSmarut46dOgpAA61p0w Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 02:44:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96F75B8@marathon> In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96F75B8@marathon> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.43.91] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A0B0201.56FC8F03.0041, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.36, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 567ee98639625051aafc0e61914c84ef Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogVW5pcXVlIHVzZSBjYXNlcw==?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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Wed, 30 Mar 2016 20:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Sender: christopher.morrow@gmail.com Received: by 10.13.209.198 with HTTP; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 20:43:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 23:43:18 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 6JE5TGUV5zEB8rVjrRHPiHxdzts Message-ID: From: Christopher Morrow To: "Xialiang (Frank)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0afa102a84cf052f501090 Archived-At: Cc: "Roman D. Danyliw" , "i2nsf@ietf.org" , dots , Linda Dunbar , Tobias Gondrom , Dacheng Zhang , "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , Luyuan Fang Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBbSTJuc2ZdICBkcmFmdC1mYW5nLWkybnNmLWlu?= =?utf-8?q?ter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 03:43:21 -0000 --94eb2c0afa102a84cf052f501090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 10:20 PM, Xialiang (Frank) < frank.xialiang@huawei.com> wrote: > > It=E2=80=99s necessary to consolidate all the use cases (intra-domain, > inter-domain, inter-cloud) into more general use cases and elaborate the > relations in next step (it had already some progress), in order to design= a > comprehensive solution. > > > =E2=80=8BI don't see how inter/intra/cloud usecases are actually different. In all cases: 1) customer is being (or thinks they are) attacked 2) =E2=80=8B =E2=80=8Bcustomer needs help=E2=80=8B 3) help is available at the various stages away from the customer =E2=80=8Bor: 1) customer is the source of an attack 2) upstreams react and block the customer's traffic it's really not that complicated, I think.=E2=80=8B --94eb2c0afa102a84cf052f501090 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, Ma= r 30, 2016 at 10:20 PM, Xialiang (Frank) <frank.xialiang@huawei.co= m> wrote:


It=E2=80= =99s necessary to consolidate all the use cases (intra-domain, inter-domain= , inter-cloud) into more general use cases and elaborate the relations in next step (it had already some progress), in order to design a comprehe= nsive solution.



=E2= =80=8BI don't see how inter/intra/cloud usecases are actually different= .

In all cases:
=C2=A0 1) customer is being (= or thinks they are) attacked
=C2=A0 2) =E2=80=8B
=E2=80=8Bcustom= er needs help=E2=80=8B
=C2=A0 3) help is available at the vari= ous stages away from the customer

=E2=80=8Bor:
=C2=A0 1) cus= tomer is the source of an attack
=C2=A0 2) upstreams react and block the customer's tr= affic

it's really not= that complicated, I think.=E2=80=8B

--94eb2c0afa102a84cf052f501090-- From nobody Thu Mar 31 05:34:28 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA50E12D62C for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:34:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uhK55RCGSMo9 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x22e.google.com (mail-pf0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 777C012D58E for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id x3so68792111pfb.1 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:34:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=UIJHu4dctSFGm7IXi9z0fDvFUkZ6eoT4QruQTEQ8Tg4=; b=ZGbQ2hQLwCcqzX4RDmsJhNpRcc65C9Uhb7ibuyG20yOzb0FoygE2e36YgI8DSKKuBx GYx01EQaRtNXJYZisOSVYFpGoNDezI40Enchq2/8i9J/+ODDAM1EPrljmmC9CZkOO7iU WNPzCHyK9mgZZU6MXm//BD0imnT+jE3xPGB10= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=UIJHu4dctSFGm7IXi9z0fDvFUkZ6eoT4QruQTEQ8Tg4=; b=Hyh+CzbZ6caG0dBr62DdYJh1gGnx6ZSS6qmieCsZEwkT4RMSzvNPF/a3ZXl1Xe7eVX OD/RKeJkhJTSbSVXjHb3SAdWH+APMRHIdfzIi36mYnvfdazyz9yZ27QK1hUJU/cmqDNr PLYXg8t1IpLh45EUctDMkp390AeBuM3yE33QETxHSoQLgYnfw84JnCl9knUhoh3KmJCk /X46R9PVD7LbKs8uPBIByHBEQA2yUd1AQ9st6BLOZsdRni+gCWol4XDEeyyBlnCZwlaK QsaVHI7poGpZmqTcuu9+sBZsjcsE/O3aI554+goOXKRXT1HrP4B5K3T8pTFQKCFA782Y vVaA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJn9lUXvZbPFPAJGmPLY9W1ZwM6mL8tbnDEiOrPXU3Z5l5xv5KyegytjPbVAaJ1k/Wa X-Received: by 10.98.16.10 with SMTP id y10mr8112830pfi.5.1459427662979; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.144] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 79sm13327406pfq.65.2016.03.31.05.34.20 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:34:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: "dots@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:34:18 +0700 Message-ID: <2A872CB3-0820-4F78-A962-96D51CB4471F@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96F75B8@marathon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Unique use cases X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:34:28 -0000 On 31 Mar 2016, at 9:44, Xialiang (Frank) wrote: > In summary, we should consolidate all these use cases into several > generalized use cases with minimum numbers and clarify their relations > clearly, IMHO. We did this already with draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01. Those are archetypal use cases, as they are easily generalizable. It doesn't matter if an operator is a transit backbone provider, IDC hoster, VPS provider, IaaS provider, broadband access provider, enterprise organization, ASP, CDN, etc. The use cases in draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01 cover the relevant communications and operational models, which is what really matters. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Thu Mar 31 05:37:53 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48A9C12D59C for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:37:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OisDfoxMBFSt for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x22e.google.com (mail-pf0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B6C912D632 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id n5so68834123pfn.2 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:37:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version; bh=n7jtNTDxJTBM+Rhk/EVkVcaigoHslEbn0r0KYkwCa68=; b=dU8tKGReJI1HGAGU6wtf7rhNFeEzWemw3coWWwSU0GV0nXjwYp5zzKrkqVaMTOqSF7 SBVWAq1Yqasz4eVn1OOPYTAAuwTbYamL45yo/7pJ0BbIeA1nMKPh5maYTTvY6HqIoXjc uNu5Ej8bZCAQUUuaekudFp8VLqHL8SISgj/Kk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=n7jtNTDxJTBM+Rhk/EVkVcaigoHslEbn0r0KYkwCa68=; b=JH2TB+vI976oQ5nCp0BCkccPrB+aqihy92waPpEErCWpIwOxBnvnfEGhRS0mDOM9bc wrg0O+Lehl0JXONdtFLaGt4BuueD3qTFLU/trWFkUb0e9bUyw6MeEZ+LimDlmwp2hjFy aqS6UQ44S19reGhl1WZbdGcktLkDg5kHJzzZFb17qEiPwI3OI2JlAraVoMY7v6ts+UB+ L53bEYVHvULHh72Z9MMqx4XdIlBbErP00X3fe91s1xhww7AHD79UqOkZiCB2R1pECc9/ QaqAxgeMc1hnhPi6Ugkb9Se61IlyT9l4QhYFElGagBlkWWL9ipiYL/byyYwCl0weoeXf +hKA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKqlkC2VBnRm8N3CiukFxNx+Dd9cUsosUhvGrQycrWieV83pUeaWol+Zu7UttJb4qwH X-Received: by 10.98.72.149 with SMTP id q21mr21822241pfi.148.1459427863763; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.144] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a22sm13399195pfj.2.2016.03.31.05.37.42 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:37:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: dots Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:37:40 +0700 Message-ID: <78277571-2070-4A6B-8472-69537DCE88C4@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Cc: "i2nsf@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Dots] [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:37:51 -0000 On 30 Mar 2016, at 9:51, Luyuan Fang wrote: > Inter-provider is very different from intra-region/inter-region within > our own Cloud/Networks, and it is different from between provider and > individual customers. Different in what way(s)? ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Thu Mar 31 05:38:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 885D412D632 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:38:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IM7IBG4EinKQ for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x235.google.com (mail-pa0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C635112D63A for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-x235.google.com with SMTP id fe3so65855030pab.1 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:38:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lSNtYNFuphqzLAKVyMjwWmHkuDCkajoG4tHtIZto0t4=; b=LNwtYOSIVc+KkO2hbQ+xkWLyS3xAfmZ2S+MmYcsLvFewiMwWM36ZGItyeknu5gaDoA OcbaXz8pL8oOIHRW1NLZEPShiZ0xDWFaEZWhbh3/6k1eskxYY7u8Wy3u2Yvp4IEcOqhZ RSrtWtbQfKAqNR6KEe9pNxvENO329znbAphiQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lSNtYNFuphqzLAKVyMjwWmHkuDCkajoG4tHtIZto0t4=; b=CGiKNc02X62WNm2MBWYMfH8z76asfjCaafLn6w3OqxoyMerkshevaxxIqsTgd4NZqx RdCetqSxcpss2fj2wgawei21RZOgrUvapjr8QHrmNo96go37SqHKoy623qroGT1Ctxuz ZvQu1szgfA1MvAS03jx+N4PviGn2e297RsrUm3WMAoWNR8yw7JBb/5AEeuJ+sQBMVhgb 6JHVGHCC1CJGzaXfWAQdTHlygD3t1AxiriOMygWu6nP423GF1dNOcTTMyWe/K++/Avtp gsB4VA4ZfYC3oD2XRSVQNyu2pkrUPaBWvBnBfqoafvIOMPHKCqx8hXlGj6UZ0qgAJ1Y8 v7Lg== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIg/PkkhvB9N3i9kdDT3xo/FFZv12Se12MNg2sDEyOx2Xkz9VE6UNla4FSPMycSVGcT X-Received: by 10.66.124.167 with SMTP id mj7mr21610586pab.153.1459427892391; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.144] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a22sm13399195pfj.2.2016.03.31.05.38.10 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:38:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: dots Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:38:10 +0700 Message-ID: <1BD4B5D4-FD0E-4540-8554-E58E840AB004@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <6AED456B-DC39-44CF-8A51-4289F60C7808@arbor.net> References: <6AED456B-DC39-44CF-8A51-4289F60C7808@arbor.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Cc: "i2nsf@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Dots] [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:38:16 -0000 On 31 Mar 2016, at 9:20, Xialiang (Frank) wrote: > It’s necessary to consolidate all the use cases (intra-domain, > inter-domain, inter-cloud) into more general use cases See draft-ietf-dots-requirements-01 - that's precisely what the document that we've worked on does, Frank. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Thu Mar 31 05:39:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8C8A12D59C for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:38:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cWLCBZt1wAZF for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x232.google.com (mail-pa0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B54F112D632 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-x232.google.com with SMTP id td3so65473953pab.2 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:38:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lXFQWrc9XBt+Y6bSaq5ydUqIb0cQmFm7nfjUSxojac0=; b=kQyMwABI1Q6FTIcT5ZoTTCUt1omuFkIjqlXnSQKT9UT8ldF9EO/Ht5nJBrZv+rDe/H Zn+xhU6kbyURhOiaYTQgK/6lpebHj1UAKB9mHNRWOYlQe6o59V2n4GzYCa5UiNmXKILN xptYazxvfrKc3XjOL+WmRwrC6cDp/tjfvVo58= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lXFQWrc9XBt+Y6bSaq5ydUqIb0cQmFm7nfjUSxojac0=; b=Ph7jFHUjrp3YghAFup/SKIbaDAAqA2PNP9ZwOyoIa7N/dCV3jBtZW28S4AGGfXVbvS TvLFLUKraSJRYG4qaI/t0mnswG5Xxym1MoI0EqCu4tdECOE5dXG1uo5UYLXaE1j4S3Av aXedPWiOeW/Tgig5vYaXCR0UDvgI+MZB+nQ2k6+sk+LXBBMjeq/YaiuqQRM0Hc1NxNZO m9i3Q7yXZazQWabIYy1i/VjWXqa/e4sh/+P7wN7JPtZkj7UXT08Vx+g4Vs220FQzS5WY t1goz60wsHprZ2Z1GiT31kh8b3SIEuBh8xtzi0sLLtBkRTIstru5pXmzBNlg7ZX5jS0X oF1g== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJMICpklrrVHVPYV1iQ4MlvEvgY4+h53m7FMNbh4To4v2+Lq59KMt78Du3/RQ7x70mU X-Received: by 10.66.65.172 with SMTP id y12mr21721963pas.102.1459427936331; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.144] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id uh1sm13391329pab.26.2016.03.31.05.38.54 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:38:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: dots Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:38:52 +0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Cc: "i2nsf@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Dots] [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:38:59 -0000 On 31 Mar 2016, at 10:43, Christopher Morrow wrote: > I don't see how inter/intra/cloud usecases are actually different. Concur 100%. > it's really not that complicated, I think.​ Yes - it's a relatively straightforward signal/response/status update sort of application. Perhaps because it has to do with DDoS attacks, the assumption is it has to be complicated and rococo and all-encompassing. This isn't actually the case. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Thu Mar 31 05:40:53 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C17A12D618 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:40:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tFx573amwMTx for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x230.google.com (mail-pa0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1837812D644 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-x230.google.com with SMTP id tt10so65813998pab.3 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:40:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1EYhJiHvOtCGmizhoC0ZUbs/4jDQZXmRQT3VqT35ioc=; b=FRC7/UGPFzYJhvOLVyg5t/Pqv4RFNLXED6AaCL3ap+zWj84sn4aNk16JZlgyFewDZJ oipgg4kfROrm+wsKg3RRyBYN87Sf6d3E3kL7Udq00l6O1SIELyLFJIpmY+72yT0pcg9g RBsTo05Q2LCxpR3pxkbc+97lDF7o+81mxnUWs= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1EYhJiHvOtCGmizhoC0ZUbs/4jDQZXmRQT3VqT35ioc=; b=SyTHdyem+zIvahs1v0I6v/SiHiEQ3KyhmhLqv5selqmb34MQ5l1pdeC+k4iq4MlMJp tQOeOza6rVygltMG9bTp5dpUpLx56XdvmeLwVuxReOMvv4KhyUl2t8r0hxEPJKiH7NnM FuogJzKcLrN0f/9guc4U1JUBxJB9yVLvuD+kFi1s0OyrlZFk+vMlKHs6i9TxtPQyo2wf mNLIvWt7a17Oe71RQZ/gUd7m70S3v8rG9iq9wT4/3NA7nNCf+C+3QHCPHsQLXD0tKAsE LinI8dHnR8eMORxEc91yMYPxwjN4Y7yRfnrIw3NBtZjlNEDHp8B+uKLy/Gwis4b1k0yc 7o2g== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIp1PMtMnHzcih0vep2ASdKcxf47Q2U5xR6VReJN+8HX3sAXoewusb7br6UJ7KbN7wr X-Received: by 10.66.100.196 with SMTP id fa4mr21698680pab.37.1459428049644; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.144] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id yl1sm13395241pac.35.2016.03.31.05.40.48 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:40:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: dots Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:40:46 +0700 Message-ID: <8968001B-8496-4D9A-9E97-876C57DB147E@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: References: <6AED456B-DC39-44CF-8A51-4289F60C7808@arbor.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Cc: "i2nsf@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Dots] [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:40:51 -0000 On 31 Mar 2016, at 13:28, Xialiang (Frank) wrote: > But I think more work is needed to make it better. There's always room for improvement - as long as those improvements focus the signaling/response system itself, and we *don't* engage in scope-creep to incorporate externalities like telemetry formats, mitigation mechanisms, diversion/re-injection mechanisms, orchestration, et. al., which have nothing to do with the signaling application itself. That signaling application is the raison d'être for DOTS. This other stuff is of secondary importance, for context only. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Thu Mar 31 06:36:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D4DB12D9A9; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 23:30:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.231 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.231 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eDyhF6ttROnw; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 23:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfwrgout.huawei.com (dfwrgout.huawei.com [206.16.17.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7542712D51E; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 23:30:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.9.243 (EHLO lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.9.243]) by dfwrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BOM25058; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 01:30:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SZXEMA411-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.70) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 07:29:05 +0100 Received: from SZXEMA502-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.36]) by szxema411-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:28:51 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank)" To: Roland Dobbins Thread-Topic: [I2nsf] [Dots] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 Thread-Index: AQHRixNcgH1yz9efWEyUN+pDH6eJz59zFFNQ Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 06:28:51 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6AED456B-DC39-44CF-8A51-4289F60C7808@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <6AED456B-DC39-44CF-8A51-4289F60C7808@arbor.net> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.43.91] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A0B0203.56FCC415.017C, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.36, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 6eb2337e9600fe6ba3736c1371b09570 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 06:36:55 -0700 Cc: "Roman D. Danyliw" , "i2nsf@ietf.org" , Christopher Morrow , dots , Linda Dunbar , Tobias Gondrom , Dacheng Zhang , "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , Luyuan Fang Subject: [Dots] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBbSTJuc2ZdICBkcmFmdC1mYW5nLWkybnNmLWlu?= =?utf-8?q?ter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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[202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 87sm10368448pfq.93.2016.03.30.23.34.49 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 30 Mar 2016 23:34:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: Xialiang Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 13:34:47 +0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <6AED456B-DC39-44CF-8A51-4289F60C7808@arbor.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 06:36:55 -0700 Cc: "Roman D. Danyliw" , "i2nsf@ietf.org" , Christopher Morrow , dots , Linda Dunbar , Tobias Gondrom , Dacheng Zhang , "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , Luyuan Fang Subject: Re: [Dots] [I2nsf] draft-fang-i2nsf-inter-cloud-ddos-mitigation-api-01 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 06:34:57 -0000 On 31 Mar 2016, at 13:28, Xialiang (Frank) wrote: > But I think more work is needed to make it better. There's always room for improvement - as long as those improvements have to do with the signaling/response system itself, and we *don't* engage in scope-creep to incorporate externalities like telemetry formats, mitigation mechanisms, diversion/re-injection mechanisms, orchestration, et. al., which have nothing to do with the signaling application itself. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Thu Mar 31 09:05:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA98312D61F for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:05:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nVfMv3JCjfgf for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 884C512D565 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:05:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=6483; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1459440350; x=1460649950; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=FaxhPxDjBNOSYl2pCbPKNOq/ZYAJIVE+AFAO4yrbBOo=; b=LlKZQUrhWsjv+9whgXl72hmTAfMoeCT3EPZxj2EiKrfwDhigNYREGxHp JDCtLsxcgnftlmbynB7dE/H1evgVb6WHM0VMq5IO+eHVbNw6EbZGmzucf ZouQlbyJgAe66iC2g/DTCtjHQitg10lXKyLljNeWCgVWqHh4U3KrMdl+z s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ABAgD6Sf1W/4gNJK1UCYM0U327FgENg?= =?us-ascii?q?XEXCoVsAoFDOBQBAQEBAQEBZSeEQQEBAQMBAQEBIA8BBTYEBQEGCwkCDgQGAgI?= =?us-ascii?q?FFgsCAgkDAgECARUiDgYBDAYCAQGIGwgOlBGdF5EFAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBARMEfIUihEaEFRGDGIJWAQSHa5AHjgiJOIVVjxUeAQFCgjKBUSAwiG0BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,422,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="255095473" Received: from alln-core-3.cisco.com ([173.36.13.136]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 31 Mar 2016 16:05:49 +0000 Received: from [10.98.149.198] (bxb-fandreas-8815.cisco.com [10.98.149.198]) by alln-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2VG5mC3019459; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 16:05:48 GMT To: Roland Dobbins , dots References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Flemming Andreasen Message-ID: <56FD4ADC.4000604@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:05:48 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 16:05:55 -0000 Thanks for the feedback on the document so far - I have added some additional responses below On 3/26/16 9:56 AM, Roland Dobbins wrote: > On 26 Mar 2016, at 16:36, Xialiang (Frank) wrote: > >> Hi Andrew, > > I'm not Andrew, but I'll take a stab at this - I'm sure Andrew, et. > al. will correct me as necessary: > >> a) The dots agents in the architecture are variable in the >> aspects such as: address, transport protocol, capability, as well as >> the addition of new agents or the leaving of old agents; > > I personally don't see any problem with this, but defer to Andrew and > the other folks working on the architecture. > We can add that. >> >> b) In an end to end dots connection, there is possibly >> several different transport protocols applied over part of the path; > > Yes, this is implied. It should probably be expressed explicitly, IMHO. > Section 2.2 has a few examples showing this, but we can call it more explicitly up front. >> 2. What do you imply by “we request working group feedback and >> discussion of operational considerations relating to coordinating >> multiple provider responses to a mitigation request”? Could you >> elaborate more details about what is the possible problem for it? > > I believe the request here is for additional feedback for any > considerations which arise in a multi-provider scenario, where > coordination is needed between the client and two or more mitigation > providers, and between the mitigation providers themselves. Correct - there are a few of these statements throughout the document. We don't claim to have everything fully fleshed out, and there were a few areas where we knew for sure we didn't so we added statements to explicitly highlight those. > This scenario was described in use-cases-00 and -01, detailed in the > diagrams in the -00 .pdf preso, and will be in the same preso for -01. > >> 3. What is the exact meaning of the sentence – “The requests >> may be in response to an active, ongoing attack against a target in >> the DOTS client’s domain, but no active attack is required for a >> DOTS client to request help. ”? > > Nik already replied to this one. Additionally, an organization may > believe that they're about to come under attack - say, they received a > DDoS extortion demand - and want to proactively request that > mitigation be initiated. > >> a) Can you give me a concrete example of what kind of device >> can be as a dots relay? > > Anything with an IP address. > >> If it can be a router, does it mean that router need to be updated to >> support some dots relay functions? > > Yes. > Agree with the above. >> b) How to clearly differentiate the dots server and dots >> relay from functional perspective? Especially in the aspects of >> pre-provisioning, mutual authentication/authorization, dots signaling >> communication from the viewpoints of dots clients? It seems to have >> some functions overlapping between the relay and server. > > They're essentially identical, except that the relay doesn't directly > cause the initiation/termination of mitigation. > >> >> c) In general, relay means the in-path device being >> transparent to the end points, but do snooping over the protocol >> messages (such as dhcp relay, dns relay, etc). > > That's a usage which has been adopted by some in the vendor and > standards communities, but is not the standard dictionary definition > of the word 'relay'. > >> But in dots architecture, does the dots relay run in this way, or run >> more the way as a proxy? > > A proxying function is part of being a relay, yes. > > The details of the relay is something that requires further discussion in the group. Some of the open areas include: - Identity and authentication - is it end-to-end or per-hop (or both) ? - Integrity - end-to-end or per-hop (or both) ? - Reliability - again, end-to-end or per-hop (or both) ? The above needs to take into consideration that you may have more than one relay, and if we want to get into multi-tiered DOTS relationships (e.g. provider 1 requests further assistance from provider 2), then the above questions become harder. In summary, I think it's premature to conclude exactly how transparent relays are - we need further discussion of the above issues (and probably others) to further detail the role and operation of the relays before we can really answer that. >> 5. Comparing the redirect way with the recursive way, the >> former is not a good choice because we should not require the dots >> client to involve in more communications when it is under a severe >> attack; > > When a client requests mitigation, and a server reports back that it > can't initiate mitigation for whatever reason (lack of capacity, lack > of functionality, error state, etc.), then the client is going to have > to request mitigation elsewhere, anyways, assuming it's configured to > do so. The redirect message provides the client with the information > it needs to reach a functioning DOTS server which can fulfill the > request. > > Without redirection, the client must try blindly, or just give up. > > So, the implication that a redirect will cause more communications to > be initiated by the client is incorrect. > Not sure I see that. If the provider is able to redirect then it has knowledge of some other entity that can be tried for mitigation, which would enable the client to leverage the already established session. Granted, if the DOTS server is exhausted in terms of signaling support, then you have a problem, but that seems to be a more manageable problem than being exhausted for mitigation capacity. >> Why not run all the mitigation control and decisions on the dots server? > > Because of flexibility of deployment models, of course. And because > all mitigators - in fact, most mitigators, at least in the beginning > of DOTS deployment - won't themselves be DOTS-capable. > >> Do you agree it’s more clear aligned to dots scope? > > Nope. > Agreed. Thanks -- Flemming > ----------------------------------- > Roland Dobbins > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Thu Mar 31 09:12:39 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0502F12D5E4 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:12:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id slMux15P45E4 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30B1212D17C for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:12:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1914; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1459440756; x=1460650356; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TVzmHle0VvOHiphqpl7o+t0OWu20dlozqtX4oGbrQwQ=; b=dYkV7wGzroFg2mWpYURKZhqQZYPBoK9AwyG2k0ydGlFukEalwzZ2U+3c 4mrCysNMTi1OpyNO0k0yH1GWGTd/Knl7XdLGdunaPZLhS9zQN1Mnb1yE7 1hvMsX3iBMxCyg/7okQoi6dJiKQyJFVDl9CPBsKGcq+AB75K4vXxpnY/y w=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,422,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="253966970" Received: from rcdn-core-7.cisco.com ([173.37.93.143]) by alln-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 31 Mar 2016 16:12:35 +0000 Received: from [10.98.149.198] (bxb-fandreas-8815.cisco.com [10.98.149.198]) by rcdn-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2VGCY8t020401; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 16:12:34 GMT To: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" , Roland Dobbins , dots References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Flemming Andreasen Message-ID: <56FD4C72.4090304@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:12:34 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 16:12:38 -0000 On 3/27/16 6:36 AM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: >>> c) In general, relay means the in-path device being >>> transparent to the end points, but do snooping over the protocol >>> messages (such as dhcp relay, dns relay, etc). > No need for the DOTS relay to snoop the messages sent by the DOTS client. DOTS relay is not transparent to the DOTS client, DOTS client will authenticate the DOTS relay and establish a secure session with the DOTS relay to exchange DOTS messages. More discussion is needed on these. - If the DOTS relay can connect to multiple providers then it will need to look at something to determine where to send a message (or the relay is much intelligent that we have assumed so far). Similar considerations apply for the reverse direction. - End-to-end vs. hop-by-hop identity and authentication is an area that requires further discussion of the overall architecture. >> That's a usage which has been adopted by some in the vendor and standards >> communities, but is not the standard dictionary definition of the word 'relay'. >> >>> But in dots architecture, does the dots relay run in this way, or run >>> more the way as a proxy? >> A proxying function is part of being a relay, yes. > It's more like a non-transparent proxy, to the DOTS client the DOTS relay acts as a DOTS server. DOTS client need not even have to distinguish b/w a DOTS relay and DOTS server. Maybe - I agree it should be a goal, but it's not obvious to me right now whether that's where everything will end. It depends on further defintion of the DOTS relay in the overall architecture (see some of the open issues noted in the architecture document and my reply to Roland's e-mail). Thanks -- Flemming > -Tiru > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > . > From nobody Thu Mar 31 09:26:10 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BB5412D690 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:26:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jS7cPgQgZMaJ for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x236.google.com (mail-pf0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DAD5F12D67F for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id x3so72811055pfb.1 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:26:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=NFkv8Kf/Sv4K78Gbb0zS5kEyLgM/kzAOlkfHLY2aBxk=; b=XkvzE+wrdt8xTaSAq5FO2Resw4hZGUokHcndQVpg9foDwWfTfzqqOhr+7cBK9sYrtB yJXeAbpBqhZb7ISkY1DfFMzVq1EXmMQWzJpCj8CBtEgN+46ykNFTq7PEqtcCN4H3dgUq 0AR2OtVPNZKMrRE8rEfEY6Nr0JAsBXNubVPNE= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=NFkv8Kf/Sv4K78Gbb0zS5kEyLgM/kzAOlkfHLY2aBxk=; b=VRjchEPiaUghx4fK5hORYMkc+NaaixMvlLAxWa82r6Ji3Uv691SgLFROAAQuV5i/Ft SSUZq2XdEJwxs3H/iYTKNKPhpvw0rcLv0fXF+C6OJCGBqWafkkSqmMlg8nmy81oujDlK dgN58oHGM5zlVgE+3zg98pLvFK5olJbZ+qBiVLYrDpgVU+mrCvrbRk0t4n2aBpTFeo19 Hak/PvbLxTRtRMHXBdZPg3pp8kas8tP3yq/A8t5wzI+PT4gC6TeDJmDAQrWa43hs0hBI 3nkMwuCCCjjMGaQDSImWI3a10nR/EGauka73B0MbvELuNVW/E9zlnlkJbYtbDijAkeDg AIrA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIEtq6ReTCfNlDWy70qsYYyvHYgyNlzoYqdCU3eTHDkTZBmLlUTuvslU1hjFf13BTjq X-Received: by 10.98.79.205 with SMTP id f74mr23300019pfj.68.1459441566467; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.144] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m10sm14571120pfi.32.2016.03.31.09.26.04 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:26:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: dots Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 23:26:02 +0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <56FD4ADC.4000604@cisco.com> References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56FD4ADC.4000604@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 16:26:09 -0000 On 31 Mar 2016, at 23:05, Flemming Andreasen wrote: > Identity and authentication - is it end-to-end or per-hop (or both) ? Node-by-node - the whole point of the relay is to gain an additional layer of indirection. > - Integrity - end-to-end or per-hop (or both) ? Same as above. > - Reliability - again, end-to-end or per-hop (or both) ? Same as above. > The above needs to take into consideration that you may have more than > one relay, and if we want to get into multi-tiered DOTS relationships > (e.g. provider 1 requests further assistance from provider 2), then > the above questions become harder. No more so that for BGP. > In summary, I think it's premature to conclude exactly how transparent > relays are - we need further discussion of the above issues (and > probably others) to further detail the role and operation of the > relays before we can really answer that. They don't need to be transparent at all - the entire point of the relay is to provide a layer of indirection, per the above. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Thu Mar 31 09:29:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AEBE12D621 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:29:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zTEUAZt1Rh36 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x234.google.com (mail-pf0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7EE212D667 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x234.google.com with SMTP id e128so51591447pfe.3 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:29:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=6N0hOF5WU3HaEWAZI4fZ1WjtKeihJgpVX2jQcoYE8oA=; b=nCNMv1AIksqhEv7CHQrphofGiVc4YWWHCgKWG+WVV7AQl2oKWpEdG+o4P2QYjepDRB KDV0YMznm9WoD/Khf3dBm43NHVGUYMMuocM9XC97vCShjNB3twsPIC5rctIno1BbHpO+ Dxi3O6EF9jpR1Da0gNg5ST637sKlfSjq+oaGs= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=6N0hOF5WU3HaEWAZI4fZ1WjtKeihJgpVX2jQcoYE8oA=; b=QlyvYfTG2RpMpinNjRA+Gp3VOw0i1MGg9ekRcpTEUM6WRHMGsL7zl5Lu5veD+w6YfI atHqeTCvtlWON6ifFqLHXRL0IV5xfE2V0jWS3ipJ6kNAK9Vt5EdeQOuhSZz3ndSMG5UU G6rv6nTr1VnaDpRqh1wcGTbI/zd4ZnGgmuKN+jv5pycfLuIf1rzeYB6CicZQwFjOVm/J afiSm/jzvhw1BXi4MKFYNc6oBxZxC/FeLTBae84ZCZD78UI6LUBQJAbn8GXCguGQEks1 pClTenWXMvgzko9fFTg9P26D7ueQkzZ/brQL7wqMY36JvhZtz+qPW/tHgiFvVDfmuvKk giDg== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKU46oivTGL3aJa621kSkdj5aerSyQD5Dge4xm+HYYd9tQFgn3OCpb7pBY/suWwocyn X-Received: by 10.98.42.207 with SMTP id q198mr23469667pfq.103.1459441751294; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.144] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ul7sm14580387pac.41.2016.03.31.09.29.09 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:29:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: dots Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 23:29:07 +0700 Message-ID: <03333A05-77DB-483B-9D81-B80F17F7A6E5@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <56FD4C72.4090304@cisco.com> References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56FD4C72.4090304@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 16:29:13 -0000 On 31 Mar 2016, at 23:12, Flemming Andreasen wrote: > - If the DOTS relay can connect to multiple providers then it will > need to look at something to determine where to send a message (or the > relay is much intelligent that we have assumed so far). Similar > considerations apply for the reverse direction. Policies, like BGP - but simpler. > - End-to-end vs. hop-by-hop identity and authentication is an area > that requires further discussion of the overall architecture. Per previous email, node-by-node is the only thing which makes sense. > Maybe - I agree it should be a goal, but it's not obvious to me right > now whether that's where everything will end. It depends on further > defintion of the DOTS relay in the overall architecture (see some of > the open issues noted in the architecture document and my reply to > Roland's e-mail). Per above, the DOTS client needn't know that it's talking to a relay. A DOTS relay is just a subset of a DOTS server. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Thu Mar 31 10:32:16 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72F3F12D6C3 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 10:32:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5lmv8UzEwrvt for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 10:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7644E12D6A7 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 10:32:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3220; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1459445532; x=1460655132; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=8ONdvqXgOrM++XWPxu9hCPrlUlUqEl7zHWg9zW+tvbI=; b=P/LsvXjtOywXPErrVerHT+qzXZilof4MdpvksXmYcZA6mJoijxv7Sfpj 5OKmEJbFU/85tQWds6Ll7Ydxk9dCshW+7qffN6wVDiS2ggzU74SbpM5vP CrwJcXALYbJE7/LXFJearV4FuOZsuzbsc7pDBfXHerXrf2Anwb4SdACis U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ABAgBuXv1W/49dJa1UCYM0U30GuxABD?= =?us-ascii?q?YFxFwqFbAKBQzgUAQEBAQEBAWUnhEEBAQEEAQEBNzQJDgQCAQgRAQMBAQEeECc?= =?us-ascii?q?LFwYIAgQBEgiIHw7CaQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAREEhh6ERoQVEYVuB?= =?us-ascii?q?ZdyAY4AjxSPFAEeAQFCgjKBNWyHb34BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,423,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="254325166" Received: from rcdn-core-7.cisco.com ([173.37.93.143]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 31 Mar 2016 17:32:11 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com (xch-aln-002.cisco.com [173.36.7.12]) by rcdn-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2VHWBDc018616 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 31 Mar 2016 17:32:11 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:32:10 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:32:10 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: "Flemming Andreasen (fandreas)" , Roland Dobbins , dots Thread-Topic: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRh2dlMIZy2Ma/lUiRx4Lf0iRGx59tFlQggAb+8wD//7pCYA== Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 17:32:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56FD4C72.4090304@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <56FD4C72.4090304@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.50.27] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 17:32:14 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Flemming Andreasen (fandreas) > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2016 9:43 PM > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy); Roland Dobbins; dots > Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots- > architecture-00.txt >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 3/27/16 6:36 AM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: > >>> c) In general, relay means the in-path device being > >>> transparent to the end points, but do snooping over the protocol > >>> messages (such as dhcp relay, dns relay, etc). > > No need for the DOTS relay to snoop the messages sent by the DOTS clien= t. > DOTS relay is not transparent to the DOTS client, DOTS client will > authenticate the DOTS relay and establish a secure session with the DOTS > relay to exchange DOTS messages. >=20 > More discussion is needed on these. > - If the DOTS relay can connect to multiple providers then it will need t= o look > at something to determine where to send a message (or the relay is much > intelligent that we have assumed so far). Similar considerations apply fo= r the > reverse direction. Yes. In case of multi-homing, if it is one DOTS client, one DOTS relay in t= he Enterprise network and DOTS servers in access networks. DOTS relay locat= ed in the Enterprise premises will have to fork and forward the DOTS signal= from the DOTS client to DOTS servers in multiple access networks, it will = also have to strip and only forward attack targets addresses and prefixes o= wned by the access network. We will also have to figure out how DOTS relay will handle different respon= ses from each of the DOTS server. =20 However if the DOTS client is knows about multi-homing, it can create multi= ple DOTS signals each carrying the addresses and prefixes owned by the acce= ss network and sends them to multiple DOTS relays. The latter mechanism loo= ks simpler. > - End-to-end vs. hop-by-hop identity and authentication is an area that > requires further discussion of the overall architecture. Hop-by-hop identity and authentication. Any specific reason for end-to-end = identity and authentication ? -Tiru >=20 > >> That's a usage which has been adopted by some in the vendor and > >> standards communities, but is not the standard dictionary definition o= f > the word 'relay'. > >> > >>> But in dots architecture, does the dots relay run in this way, or > >>> run more the way as a proxy? > >> A proxying function is part of being a relay, yes. > > It's more like a non-transparent proxy, to the DOTS client the DOTS rel= ay > acts as a DOTS server. DOTS client need not even have to distinguish b/w = a > DOTS relay and DOTS server. > Maybe - I agree it should be a goal, but it's not obvious to me right now > whether that's where everything will end. It depends on further defintion= of > the DOTS relay in the overall architecture (see some of the open issues n= oted > in the architecture document and my reply to Roland's e-mail). >=20 > Thanks >=20 > -- Flemming >=20 > > -Tiru > > _______________________________________________ > > Dots mailing list > > Dots@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > . > > From nobody Thu Mar 31 10:42:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2020012D6A7 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 10:42:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5lJqqMNXWN09 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 10:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F9D612D5B8 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 10:42:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2207; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1459446162; x=1460655762; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0CjoXfZg0ApGywGB9276nCTFZI8hpEPsX7HCJH1TTN8=; b=Z+gUm+FPWY6ttKybaRZh5dcGzgRaXjE1PA2yklTeQpv0/u1zHBoxNOpL KSxGd91gSe0WUWR3eZ4mY7l5ijia7+NL+Z0Kz793HnlnYYoPXBwOMf1Kv bpCDRt+VYErzjm4nistEBxJrxaNTD7vZFNNstMchkWjhW2GP6nTSTmweJ M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ABAgBPYP1W/5RdJa1UCYM0U327FgENg?= =?us-ascii?q?XEXCoVsAoFDOBQBAQEBAQEBZSeEQQEBAQMBAQEBNTQCBAQBARELDgQGCRYPCQM?= =?us-ascii?q?CAQIBFSIOBgEMBgIBAYgbCA7CXgEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARQEhh6ERoQVE?= =?us-ascii?q?YVuAQSHa5AHjgiBZoRNgwWFVY8VHgEBQoIygVEgMIhtAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,423,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="86807462" Received: from rcdn-core-12.cisco.com ([173.37.93.148]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 31 Mar 2016 17:42:41 +0000 Received: from [10.98.149.198] (bxb-fandreas-8815.cisco.com [10.98.149.198]) by rcdn-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2VHgeR5000898; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 17:42:41 GMT To: Roland Dobbins , dots References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56FD4ADC.4000604@cisco.com> From: Flemming Andreasen Message-ID: <56FD6190.4090109@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 13:42:40 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 17:42:44 -0000 On 3/31/16 12:26 PM, Roland Dobbins wrote: > On 31 Mar 2016, at 23:05, Flemming Andreasen wrote: > >> Identity and authentication - is it end-to-end or per-hop (or both) ? > > Node-by-node - the whole point of the relay is to gain an additional > layer of indirection. > Sure, but but doesn't imply anything wrt to the above. >> - Integrity - end-to-end or per-hop (or both) ? > > Same as above. > >> - Reliability - again, end-to-end or per-hop (or both) ? > > Same as above. > I was hoping for some actual considerations rather than isolated statements - can you elaborate on all of the above ? >> The above needs to take into consideration that you may have more >> than one relay, and if we want to get into multi-tiered DOTS >> relationships (e.g. provider 1 requests further assistance from >> provider 2), then the above questions become harder. > > No more so that for BGP. > I don't believe BGP has explicit relay functions as part of its architecture. Please elaborate on how you see BGP as the proper analogy here and not e.g. DIAMETER ? >> In summary, I think it's premature to conclude exactly how >> transparent relays are - we need further discussion of the above >> issues (and probably others) to further detail the role and operation >> of the relays before we can really answer that. > > They don't need to be transparent at all - the entire point of the > relay is to provide a layer of indirection, per the above. > Ok. If I understand your position correctly, you believe that relays are essentially full-fledged Server+Client implementations that fully terminate and re-originate all signaling and information elements and the entities that utilize them will not be able to directly see anything on the other side of the relay. This applies to the information itself, as well as reliability and all aspects of identity and security. Do I have that correct ? Thanks -- Flemming > ----------------------------------- > Roland Dobbins > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > . > From nobody Thu Mar 31 12:05:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AB7912D73A for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:05:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MK_qxRbBmL8y for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94B9712D76B for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:05:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3235; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1459451115; x=1460660715; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=efVuBTpMQ9dSdntF4yF4LZueGm874hh9w//ngjW/XCo=; b=iwZA+wR58ITkz8o6yooB5k8UbmTpSaXgOlwYqlntV6iVUdKGQhcOQtm1 RYQZrf6/F4nlqWGq3269vVySVwVkgClH+CLBVO5mI3FrSVY4qg6IXEXN2 efNuZmvhzJUkOfMJnSXPjdO7dIFVoryQr14tvh1VzP72d8gbFj7YRg8Pl I=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,423,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="633876460" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 31 Mar 2016 19:05:14 +0000 Received: from [10.98.149.198] (bxb-fandreas-8815.cisco.com [10.98.149.198]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2VJ5CQt002032; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:05:13 GMT To: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" , Roland Dobbins , dots References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56FD4C72.4090304@cisco.com> From: Flemming Andreasen Message-ID: <56FD74E8.6030300@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:05:12 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:05:19 -0000 On 3/31/16 1:32 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Flemming Andreasen (fandreas) >> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2016 9:43 PM >> To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy); Roland Dobbins; dots >> Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots- >> architecture-00.txt >> >> >> >> On 3/27/16 6:36 AM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: >>>>> c) In general, relay means the in-path device being >>>>> transparent to the end points, but do snooping over the protocol >>>>> messages (such as dhcp relay, dns relay, etc). >>> No need for the DOTS relay to snoop the messages sent by the DOTS client. >> DOTS relay is not transparent to the DOTS client, DOTS client will >> authenticate the DOTS relay and establish a secure session with the DOTS >> relay to exchange DOTS messages. >> >> More discussion is needed on these. >> - If the DOTS relay can connect to multiple providers then it will need to look >> at something to determine where to send a message (or the relay is much >> intelligent that we have assumed so far). Similar considerations apply for the >> reverse direction. > Yes. In case of multi-homing, if it is one DOTS client, one DOTS relay in the Enterprise network and DOTS servers in access networks. DOTS relay located in the Enterprise premises will have to fork and forward the DOTS signal from the DOTS client to DOTS servers in multiple access networks, it will also have to strip and only forward attack targets addresses and prefixes owned by the access network. > We will also have to figure out how DOTS relay will handle different responses from each of the DOTS server. > However if the DOTS client is knows about multi-homing, it can create multiple DOTS signals each carrying the addresses and prefixes owned by the access network and sends them to multiple DOTS relays. The latter mechanism looks simpler. I'm not sure. Your scenarios make sense to me, but it looks like there is an element of topology awareness required here wrt the attack target network as well as the associated DOTS servers you are requesting service from. The closer the DOTS clients get to the actual attack targets (e.g. a web server), the less desirable it seems to have that functionality there. My preference would be to try and handle as much of this on the DOTS server/mitigation side as possible, but I haven't given much thought to the details of how all of that would actually work (in either scenario). >> - End-to-end vs. hop-by-hop identity and authentication is an area that >> requires further discussion of the overall architecture. > Hop-by-hop identity and authentication. Any specific reason for end-to-end identity and authentication ? Confidentiality and privacy concerns would be the typical considerations here, especially if we get into hosted or tiered services scenarios where the DOTS relay may not be owned by the same entity as who is requesting and/or providing the service. Consider for example a case where we the DOTS client needs to provide the DOTS server with keying material in order for the DDoS mitigation service to properly deal with TLS flows. -- Flemming From nobody Thu Mar 31 12:09:50 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39FB612D78E for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:09:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9vnqFGnzsADE for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x235.google.com (mail-pf0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D16A812D77E for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x235.google.com with SMTP id x3so75783308pfb.1 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:09:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=BWMguOZajD10RKr/tRHPFtVQrgMwlm3uC37cu+D5D8w=; b=JxV+CaBzVKo8iMdt6kbI2ePgXIml8gUO4+TbgUkSFvNE2zA/AcvjeMVBodoGYVuco1 htT4ZLG5mU5gTXg1YSm5EPgDcqLx2/5xLZCJFKnbme+ll4Da6lzBeBBzgQB9/vOcyTKG jdL4B+rzpNW2NY4y+1aF31KT8UVN0ExphI96M= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=BWMguOZajD10RKr/tRHPFtVQrgMwlm3uC37cu+D5D8w=; b=Qa19DvNZ6QfhBx7TERIXcdnSwCqIQgS2YEvcBf5nTcbuQJRqWampA9a/Bordh0Sd/I QwNaW9ht7XtoYQpRyfWKZVkPUGFTAs1iekr426t3O7WPuabeAuHlOZ+yzMgkWbMzvTAt k4mNEmc9sk3p7L5CH9+hIvbILJowswfJYIB8gGF6rfc3zHR3EzCFQDnTzTfEFRMOrLfb gZVOYfTNKu9WLWHqmXKFeppa45F/iRUjGB1lgatEgflGE5by19YvV4ZLxaASWspOyx3N C1fzfZllB0yCQEjC+UwqvxpN0KDXWEr6Z8n8cDW4U3k9wws9nMRMKceEE1PAtM2V2nuq LpYQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLwz7XHye0pDcJ3OR3VRq/UIo10FhBcpNzjcs/gWzq7abTb3fMVBYaxxNuwxLuA0AYI X-Received: by 10.98.14.147 with SMTP id 19mr24368724pfo.79.1459451364451; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.144] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 87sm15146965pfq.93.2016.03.31.12.09.22 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:09:23 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: dots Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 02:09:20 +0700 Message-ID: <851CD11A-37C6-452C-8905-4239B8F247B6@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <56FD6190.4090109@cisco.com> References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56FD4ADC.4000604@cisco.com> <56FD6190.4090109@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:09:47 -0000 On 1 Apr 2016, at 0:42, Flemming Andreasen wrote: > I was hoping for some actual considerations rather than isolated > statements - can you elaborate on all of the above ? It's simple - there's simply no need for end-to-end. Node-by-node is perfectly adequate, is also much more easily operationally supported, and is considerably less brittle. I'd turn that question on its head and ask why we would even consider end-to-end for this application? > I don't believe BGP has explicit relay functions as part of its > architecture. Please elaborate on how you see BGP as the proper > analogy here and not e.g. DIAMETER ? I was trying to make an analogy with the peering and route-policy functions of BGP implementations which control what routing advertisements are propagated to which peers, in a multi-peered topology. > If I understand your position correctly, you believe that relays are > essentially full-fledged Server+Client implementations that fully > terminate and re-originate all signaling and information elements and > the entities that utilize them will not be able to directly see > anything on the other side of the relay. This applies to the > information itself, as well as reliability and all aspects of identity > and security. Do I have that correct ? Yes. Indirection and obfuscation are highly desirable traits for this application; also, this type of model is really the only sort of thing which works from an operational perspective. Anything else is too convoluted and brittle. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Thu Mar 31 12:12:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1679912D78E for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:12:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NReUThNtCfEK for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x231.google.com (mail-pa0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD1FA12D77D for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-x231.google.com with SMTP id zm5so72498321pac.0 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:12:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=AACVviiqX7ntOfsToKdNVpqYx8HmokIIZs8tboOnd9g=; b=WJwpT/reHKqtD2xk4z+JIEBkwDqlq5r0b3pTBtVLgGd9xEwP1Ef8ooVnhl/0liL2dd m0eC/pLeyaLg+q8IfRAWIuXTCIJCwDWkzEqLpgCPhuqx7UDAd1wSyFwshmmeUp+87Kcc AjZESgpTxJtUUZQVRVRmOQScF5jG/ytdiZsqg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=AACVviiqX7ntOfsToKdNVpqYx8HmokIIZs8tboOnd9g=; b=Tb4N/gzt1jW/CzpGTvZtwT6AkKZRVX+4BvwiFy5GckiQv/LWHOKM+WdNYkSkCJgq6i vonh6S32J1gLkTEBYGJLydzZDVClP/SBak4NW9zG3nm4TcXQsjqeSKlN98y8Q1uQe6P0 S/NzSJaRPZ7RQ+mYBu8TOD1jDKoXakMdsj6tNbKMvzdQFda1KTKgYgwB0sfdXEnXmvuX 9L2RoUfLz5/gn8U8dUvo9M2D2RQSmx9zPpJDJThdJYrXSovU8vhUu94Gpj0JO3ZZQMZ/ f3SBgJKG2C00FKlSy65NWJZx54FzkM4Sftrm0ex93l8YWsfb3R9GOiHdrG8JS0IUyxgb eXtw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJSt1XHvqJoqHqBHFYaF/uRaR+FWd9EX59YvnuQEk0mMENH4Yms9cTZ2c5yflMr/wJH X-Received: by 10.66.189.166 with SMTP id gj6mr24462026pac.158.1459451547445; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.144] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ud5sm15233125pac.11.2016.03.31.12.12.25 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:12:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: dots Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 02:12:24 +0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <56FD74E8.6030300@cisco.com> References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56FD4C72.4090304@cisco.com> <56FD74E8.6030300@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:12:33 -0000 On 1 Apr 2016, at 2:05, Flemming Andreasen wrote: > there is an element of topology awareness required here wrt the attack > target network I disagree with this premise. All that information is out-of-band from a DOTS perspective; it's administrative logic/policy which is not within the ambit of the DOTS system. > Consider for example a case where we the DOTS client needs to provide > the DOTS server with keying material in order for the DDoS mitigation > service to properly deal with TLS flows. Same as above - this is admin/policy stuff which is completely outside the scope of DOTS. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Thu Mar 31 12:25:35 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A4E912D156 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:25:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MOoDsxRZQeh6 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plainfield.sei.cmu.edu (plainfield.sei.cmu.edu [192.58.107.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2D5912D0C8 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:25:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from timber.sei.cmu.edu (timber.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.21.23]) by plainfield.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id u2VJPSFn004445; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:25:28 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cert.org; s=jthatj15xw2j; t=1459452328; bh=qBNYI7+npf1iK5QZA0wgLv/Z4KSmSjA2Hqy6L99Q5Xo=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version:Sender: Reply-To:Cc; b=VRp7GA6nQftZ0x0eFfAS+Q85oG9xc/3xapf1dxdpzCTIcaj5nBbQpDhaK0puzUcT6 4wbRvvyBJS30W9OTS/ZWl3NvLBIiP1gC6iqKgff8uV+ko3DTo4EY6A+ZBEBkdm2KIh uRm+Zv84ciOwFnwo55dZfGQLalv6i6PLKcVocPlU= Received: from CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu (cassina.ad.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.28.249]) by timber.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id u2VJOp1Z012061; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:24:51 -0400 Received: from MARATHON.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.250]) by CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.249]) with mapi id 14.03.0266.001; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:25:25 -0400 From: "Roman D. Danyliw" To: Roland Dobbins , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Unique use cases Thread-Index: AdGKCJbai02bV9oeSSmarut46dOgpAAlUheAADiewgA= Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:25:24 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96F992C@marathon> References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96F75B8@marathon> <794C446F-DDB2-4583-A9A9-7ACE67C0192A@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <794C446F-DDB2-4583-A9A9-7ACE67C0192A@arbor.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Unique use cases X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:25:33 -0000 Hi Roland! (chair hat off) > -----Original Message----- > From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 8:05 AM > To: dots@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Dots] Unique use cases >=20 > On 30 Mar 2016, at 5:30, Roman D. Danyliw wrote: [snip] > > (1) What's the difference between [WG-UC]'s [WG-UC]-2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 > > beyond the kind of device acting as the DOTS client? The write-ups > > are nearly identical. >=20 > That's the point - to illustrate that different types of devices/applicat= ions can > participate in DOTS, and that all the other differences are largely irrel= evant to > the actual requirements of DOTS, and that DOTS has universal applicabilit= y. I agree on the intent. IMHO, by repeating the text so many times, this uni= versal applicability and common behavior regardless of device got lost. [snip] > > (2) What's the difference between [ID-UC]'s [UD-UC]-1 (Section 4.1.1) > > and 2 (Section 4.1.2); and [WG-UC]-1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6? >=20 > There is no Section 4.1.1 nor Section 4.1.2 in draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-= 01, > IIRC? The cited section numbers were for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-usecas= es-01 [aka, ID-UC]. I didn't cite the section numbers for draft-ietf-dots-= use-cases-01 [aka, WG-UC]. > > (3) What's the difference between [ID-UC]'s [ID-UC]-3 (Section 4.2.1) > > and [ID-UC]-4 (Section 4.2.2); and [IDC-UC]-1 (Section 3.1)? >=20 > Are you asking about the delta between the specific use cases in the two > draft versions? Ignoring, draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01, I was trying to understand the diff= erence between use cases #3 and 4 in Section 4.2.1/4.2.2 in draft-nishizuka= -dots-inter-domain-usecases-01 [aka, ID-UC]; relative to use case #1 in Sec= tion 3.1 of draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00 [aka, IDC-UC]. = Are the former two use cases the same as the latter? > > (4) [ID-UC]-5 and [IDC-UC]-2 appear to be acknowledged as the same use > > case in Section 4.2.3 of [ID-UC]. Is that correct? >=20 > Unfortunately, I'm very confused by all the new acronyms and reliance on > numbers which don't actually appear in the documents - there is no Sectio= n > 4.2.3 in draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01. Can you provide more context? > Apologies for my confusion! Sorry for the confusion. Let me expand my notation for clarity ... Use case #5 in Section 4.2.3 of draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-usecases-= 01 [aka, ID-UC] appears to state that it is identical to use case #2 in Sec= tion 3.2 of draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00 [aka, IDC-UC]. = Is that correct? Roman From nobody Thu Mar 31 12:52:10 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78DA112D791 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:52:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5TMlazkxwVGW for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D9CF12D56C for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:52:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3184; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1459453926; x=1460663526; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QAWUuGRA1j+onK+N2ouzkPfW2uWlmAzg3Np5ZCWSDsM=; b=LQ8d/6Y8C9hGTF9gJ3bQMGkJUciImDVapYcFYu0jZpNZ+3NyQi9nT6Aj phDQ2NL3oHDxZ7i+yh6sCnwz4hJerXNXQddq7HbjyFnQonncRDXd4W6pV oPaZ7JA+110W/k+xb9wzQUM2/krELk4RlH78FvodTh8IDg0Pze7TXh4wF w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D2AQBlf/1W/4ENJK1UCYMzU327FQENg?= =?us-ascii?q?XIXCoVsAoFHOBQBAQEBAQEBZSeEQQEBAQMBAQEBNTYJARELDgQGCRYPCQMCAQI?= =?us-ascii?q?BFSIOBgEMBgIBAYgbCA7DKQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARQEhh6ERoQVEYVuA?= =?us-ascii?q?QSHa5AHjgiBZoRNgwWFVY8VHgEBQoIygVEgMIhtAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,423,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="91511772" Received: from alln-core-9.cisco.com ([173.36.13.129]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 31 Mar 2016 19:52:05 +0000 Received: from [10.98.149.198] (bxb-fandreas-8815.cisco.com [10.98.149.198]) by alln-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2VJq5AB016187; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:52:05 GMT To: Roland Dobbins , dots References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56FD4ADC.4000604@cisco.com> <56FD6190.4090109@cisco.com> <851CD11A-37C6-452C-8905-4239B8F247B6@arbor.net> From: Flemming Andreasen Message-ID: <56FD7FE4.3010507@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:52:04 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <851CD11A-37C6-452C-8905-4239B8F247B6@arbor.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:52:08 -0000 On 3/31/16 3:09 PM, Roland Dobbins wrote: > On 1 Apr 2016, at 0:42, Flemming Andreasen wrote: > >> I was hoping for some actual considerations rather than isolated >> statements - can you elaborate on all of the above ? > > It's simple - there's simply no need for end-to-end. Node-by-node is > perfectly adequate, is also much more easily operationally supported, > and is considerably less brittle. > > I'd turn that question on its head and ask why we would even consider > end-to-end for this application? > Ok - you didn't answer my question though so I'll ask again. There is a classic paper titled "end-to-end arguments in system design" that gets into some of the reasons beind end-to-end that you may want to take a look at. >> I don't believe BGP has explicit relay functions as part of its >> architecture. Please elaborate on how you see BGP as the proper >> analogy here and not e.g. DIAMETER ? > > I was trying to make an analogy with the peering and route-policy > functions of BGP implementations which control what routing > advertisements are propagated to which peers, in a multi-peered topology. > I agree that the route-policy issues seem to parallel some of the operational considerations in DOTS around which (alleged) attack targets a mitigation provider should actually start redirecting traffic for. I'm not sure if it's in scope of DOTS to solve that policy/authorization aspect though - the architecture draft explicitly noted (suggested) it as out of scope but it would be good to hear more opinions on that. In either case, I'm not sure it helps us answer the relay question where I still see more parallels to something like DIAMETER than BGP (not that I am in anyway suggesting we should use DIAMETER, but there is at least something to look at in terms of capabilities and pitfalls). >> If I understand your position correctly, you believe that relays are >> essentially full-fledged Server+Client implementations that fully >> terminate and re-originate all signaling and information elements and >> the entities that utilize them will not be able to directly see >> anything on the other side of the relay. This applies to the >> information itself, as well as reliability and all aspects of >> identity and security. Do I have that correct ? > > Yes. Indirection and obfuscation are highly desirable traits for this > application; also, this type of model is really the only sort of thing > which works from an operational perspective. Anything else is too > convoluted and brittle. > Ok. I'm not convinced because taking a pure hop-by-hop approach complicates the DOTS relay significantly by creating (end-to-end) reliability and security issues. The DOTS relay will have to be stateful, which is something you generally want to try and avoid if possible. If anything, a stateful relay is more brittle. -- Flemming > ----------------------------------- > Roland Dobbins > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > . > From nobody Thu Mar 31 13:15:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70B6112D804 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 13:15:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VTX47gmUxyNM for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 13:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x22e.google.com (mail-pa0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD72012D7FE for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 13:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id fe3so73394143pab.1 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 13:15:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=dogCmlD6E1+KU6te2cF0AOgzaNZo5GrlPLP4clgglR8=; b=ZBzHKCrsvTFmcRWj/VmGC9G6r1LBPs/IH3TL4av5JamK75AlBUu5CKt5QadGP8czwD O/YPc5oO6GUxdrGmgr49AR3cKklPbhw23MMqEoCTJwfYryC/PtkwpfYh75822vnIlht6 8bVuD4UdOEfB1o5UceqOKW7j5iQgofSdOpnc8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=dogCmlD6E1+KU6te2cF0AOgzaNZo5GrlPLP4clgglR8=; b=LotVhehcmEMbG+dQsEA1o6Wsc1TMyhIh/XQygyQStrNyAVZULy+jGoO/YfHTGlC0zG EnIPQ2xhvfNmFcGOqLRJic9Hs2qalZAeL+oQwXZ6SMUCfCyHtTNv/EgteakIxQq6bP8d M75kazY9BIpwe4OwcjAeE2erdwABJsGpj+7gUD6ZIpsjPNGCKSIxAEnXIYn2AI9M9wWu nIuCIi2Ief+a13QsecmVZ22fblg/dvuLaMWrryhUSXBzFHxRHRrj6RTsY12DjfAFJnqq KyMOt/RPliAA5apkzM+TKfhZIOV/j7yg051YlmvBCDsGQfDq2iFp4GpiajX5As8qvwKf 19Fw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLuUQWK+RwpwO007R2AnObx8rPzywD2pZuO115azYrQeAgiQ0ZuxFL7TkHCknFOKDZM X-Received: by 10.66.122.3 with SMTP id lo3mr24545785pab.25.1459455344356; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 13:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.144] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m87sm15362279pfj.38.2016.03.31.13.15.42 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 31 Mar 2016 13:15:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: dots Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 03:15:40 +0700 Message-ID: <8AAD7FE1-A9D1-43FA-A5BD-1C549ED2CF43@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <56FD7FE4.3010507@cisco.com> References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56FD4ADC.4000604@cisco.com> <56FD6190.4090109@cisco.com> <851CD11A-37C6-452C-8905-4239B8F247B6@arbor.net> <56FD7FE4.3010507@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 20:15:46 -0000 On 1 Apr 2016, at 2:52, Flemming Andreasen wrote: > There is a classic paper titled "end-to-end arguments in system > design" that gets into some of the reasons beind end-to-end that you > may want to take a look at. Yeah, I read it thirty-odd years ago when it came out, thanks. > the architecture draft explicitly noted (suggested) it as out of > scope but it would be good to hear more opinions on that. I believe we may be talking at cross purposes, here - what in draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00 precludes your view of what we're discussing? > but there is at least something to look at in terms of capabilities > and pitfalls). Can you expound upon what you find attractive in the Diameter model? > Ok. I'm not convinced because taking a pure hop-by-hop approach > complicates the DOTS relay significantly by creating (end-to-end) > reliability and security issues. What kind of reliability issues are raised, in your view? What kind of security issues are raised, in your view? Keep in mind that this is not a general-purpose system and that a) the number of participants in a given DOTS communications chain is low and b) access to said communications chain and associated system is highly restrictive. > The DOTS relay will have to be stateful, which is something you > generally want to try and avoid if possible. Can you explain how statefulness implied in node-by-node? ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Thu Mar 31 14:01:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C71F12D85B for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:01:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id El_ohUwoqMJ9 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x231.google.com (mail-io0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F319112D849 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x231.google.com with SMTP id a129so121101342ioe.0 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:01:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=entABS3oevHOy/UFmhLhbgnvvhQg7JOH8/qXiCaGVas=; b=VvX2PG/uGCBcqZsF5hvN4pnh4YI1Kg8b63sQ47NzpuXvH81OGkN56OXQexMWgkqWgE cirqkMi6sHvWqWp9GM04jQrrwGXyogn4Uy5X29tzpVHyH0MwqDCch54HesUmtZvs43uX nLXnJ5nWrwfKaXn54a5uKVaOuQJeVQ/d6xD0M= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=entABS3oevHOy/UFmhLhbgnvvhQg7JOH8/qXiCaGVas=; b=P+ICbaho602+gswjiaRI1en2QusrHXrSnJw2Wy0+nZysGT/YJvDVokZTzKrZCSs3Q4 yhNlRtnp5rWHTvfhnKeSqZjZ3SKRrf9ko2V/C2M7gqYE7eovZCakIPfIk5nzIj/F9oSc 92EzxC2+fzn//xvkke0khmBreIe7eNtR/hf+/yKFd5Qefzo15H6rgRcs+f64sxgVpxt2 z9zfhwcBdwDIt5IP6hI/8BuePUz2Box8z0zqUC+R4Uvfj8OuUAy5BYR3CMX+UbVtTZSQ QeTC+HylJT81tAg6UoQ+hw7rg2K4Nw6IkrAxAXX5lKFk1jRZVYJDncUMuPQdLwqhUa+N jXUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLL3hhj1jyYPOYSZG+91V9/OA+FvUBvMbQkeGD5QImNTSuJYfewSq2MbSOyMZYwjs8J X-Received: by 10.107.44.85 with SMTP id s82mr4723280ios.36.1459458080010; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.6] (c-68-49-167-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net. [68.49.167.203]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g67sm4513269ioe.34.2016.03.31.14.01.16 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Andrew Mortensen In-Reply-To: <8AAD7FE1-A9D1-43FA-A5BD-1C549ED2CF43@arbor.net> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 17:01:15 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2ECA80B5-5032-4EC6-BAF2-D97E0C298A71@arbor.net> References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56FD4ADC.4000604@cisco.com> <56FD6190.4090109@cisco.com> <851CD11A-37C6-452C-8905-4239B8F247B6@arbor.net> <56FD7FE4.3010507@cisco.com> <8AAD7FE1-A9D1-43FA-A5BD-1C549ED2CF43@arbor.net> To: Roland Dobbins X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: dots Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 21:01:26 -0000 The discussion so far mostly covers how DOTS relays would pass signals, = but not why DOTS relays might be valuable in the first place. The two simplest=E2=80=94and in my mind strongest=E2=80=94use cases for = the DOTS relay seem to be: 1) As an aggregation point at e.g. the DOTS client network edge in an = inter-domain use case, simplifying network policy management for the = DOTS client/server relationship, and for operators in both domains. 2) As a bridge between signaling sessions using different protocols, = alluded to in I-D.ietf-dots.requirements OP-001. Use cases beyond that are murkier to me, and need more discussion, e.g. = could or should a relay operate as a signal reflector? in what way is = that different from a multi-homed client? etc. Flemming=E2=80=99s point regarding confidentiality and privacy concerns = in the hop-by-hop model is valid, particularly around the sort of = delegated ownership of the request for mitigation in the hosted or = tiered services scenario. [1] (That particular use case also happens to = align well with the Recursive Signaling mode of operation described in = I-D.mortensen-dots-architecture 4.2.4.) > Keep in mind that this is not a general-purpose system and that a) the = number of participants in a given DOTS communications chain is low and = b) access to said communications chain and associated system is highly = restrictive. This is a good point. It also raises more questions about the utility of = multiple DOTS relays in the signaling path when those relays are not = owned by the entity originating the request for mitigation or the entity = acting on the request for mitigation. andrew= From nobody Thu Mar 31 14:23:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50BF012D83F for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:23:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7tGzViZuA1Iz for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21B5412D572 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:23:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2671; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1459459410; x=1460669010; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wwWam/gYyt/V5zoCXlgtDs52Rb8FPaWQasyfq1AiAOU=; b=EcjYM6jQKfJSSYMFSM0yJfjDOyMIbTebakbK49V9hAkQ/yNpEcGtPqgP jOQUqQ8cC9vRvxbsabxCh1QCAdElejCNRQ+ba7M4bt0KAZCu/aoQE/6x6 IOnutRTN38nK/3J/lx/z5D0C99QUlVpggz7VvMTtWGQEUNa/uEhiUPb1A w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CtBAAKlP1W/xbLJq1dhAZ9vRMXCoVsA?= =?us-ascii?q?oITAQEBAQEBZieEQQEBAQMBAQEBNTYJAQYLCw4EBgkWDwkDAgECARUiDgYBDAY?= =?us-ascii?q?CAQGIGwgOwzsBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEUBIYehEaKFAEEh2uQB44IgWaET?= =?us-ascii?q?YMFI4UyjxViggQZFYFRIDCIbQEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,424,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="634901617" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 31 Mar 2016 21:23:28 +0000 Received: from [10.98.149.198] (bxb-fandreas-8815.cisco.com [10.98.149.198]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2VLNRDj006336; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 21:23:27 GMT To: Roland Dobbins , dots References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56FD4ADC.4000604@cisco.com> <56FD6190.4090109@cisco.com> <851CD11A-37C6-452C-8905-4239B8F247B6@arbor.net> <56FD7FE4.3010507@cisco.com> <8AAD7FE1-A9D1-43FA-A5BD-1C549ED2CF43@arbor.net> From: Flemming Andreasen Message-ID: <56FD954F.3020001@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 17:23:27 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8AAD7FE1-A9D1-43FA-A5BD-1C549ED2CF43@arbor.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 21:23:32 -0000 On 3/31/16 4:15 PM, Roland Dobbins wrote: > On 1 Apr 2016, at 2:52, Flemming Andreasen wrote: > >> There is a classic paper titled "end-to-end arguments in system >> design" that gets into some of the reasons beind end-to-end that you >> may want to take a look at. > > Yeah, I read it thirty-odd years ago when it came out, thanks. > You're welcome. You snipped my question though so I will now ask you for the third time to please answer that. >> the architecture draft explicitly noted (suggested) it as out of >> scope but it would be good to hear more opinions on that. > > I believe we may be talking at cross purposes, here - what in > draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00 precludes your view of what we're > discussing? > I did not say that the architecture draft precludes anything. Please reply with the proper context instead of selectively deleting context. >> but there is at least something to look at in terms of capabilities >> and pitfalls). > > Can you expound upon what you find attractive in the Diameter model? > I did not say I find the Diameter model attractive. What I did say is that it defines the notion of relays (in contract to BGP) and hence it may be worth looking at. >> Ok. I'm not convinced because taking a pure hop-by-hop approach >> complicates the DOTS relay significantly by creating (end-to-end) >> reliability and security issues. > > What kind of reliability issues are raised, in your view? > Message reliability for example. Without end-to-end acknowledgement you don't know if your messages are actually delivered to the intended target > What kind of security issues are raised, in your view? > Classic man-in-the-middle; confidentiality/privacy and integrity as I noted previously. > Keep in mind that this is not a general-purpose system and that a) the > number of participants in a given DOTS communications chain is low and > b) access to said communications chain and associated system is highly > restrictive. > Where is that stated and how is that ensured ? >> The DOTS relay will have to be stateful, which is something you >> generally want to try and avoid if possible. > > Can you explain how statefulness implied in node-by-node? > If you do hop-by-hop acknowledgements only and you want to guarantee reliable delivery (or at least attempt to do), then you need to be stateful. -- Flemming > ----------------------------------- > Roland Dobbins > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > . > From nobody Thu Mar 31 14:46:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF75512D8BC for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:46:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1N5DtHTz-XES for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x22f.google.com (mail-pa0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB32712D8B8 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id tt10so74696945pab.3 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:46:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=lAcDX5RGK85rSPm+5tPpFs9GFHLgxnbhOZTrPVkOUfs=; b=Z4ZsYEpPhO8AdZB3kKYRDQWPGnMo6u/BvrM+w2/hCzjgOEwsra+jCd8EOIbqnTAV4/ y+FPUK7nEdHgSzkrXwKB5eUYoQF3AGs3rNuW7IVMzS0yXpqY2bwI1Mj8X1GXl5OmiNcj C5WiMvd3OawK78ClWGUoNeUw5xsBtI0crcJuo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=lAcDX5RGK85rSPm+5tPpFs9GFHLgxnbhOZTrPVkOUfs=; b=OemOvCEQ7gE2BP7fNv0yuinWgyBcGO5bc42sehfAghLvP7+41BurGeOz/HKiU824qO x/uP3BAj//yhtg3hIgLszLKyvXbGI4Nrlz3/dtOyXygCjRSKK5k9bECkR835cvMyvJTP Q/+yoA7NCqSNiAsf1QEfE/ghV2RRfiife4YJYNvr0KqSkb1855UMJkRIh7gpYeyxmmby tFRc7O1ESkiwz4aYHxPD3e1S5/hlyfQx0nvNznbkwYqGfdT5wYQHUzFMvDXnRv2anRLv RwCYhp3s8CIKcy3SehzlA46wP3sgz6zz3w0H0n+qlZfRQ05SfsgpcIl/WeUq11udc7qx I3sQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIDGMPVb6sz2suFl3l5kdfXWgsGN1Gd3dMmbRMTSJMoTAh/biCwanVaNBWL7pX/K03J X-Received: by 10.66.102.37 with SMTP id fl5mr25362451pab.32.1459460786504; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.144] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s64sm15561681pfi.77.2016.03.31.14.46.24 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:46:25 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: dots Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 04:46:22 +0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <56FD954F.3020001@cisco.com> References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56FD4ADC.4000604@cisco.com> <56FD6190.4090109@cisco.com> <851CD11A-37C6-452C-8905-4239B8F247B6@arbor.net> <56FD7FE4.3010507@cisco.com> <8AAD7FE1-A9D1-43FA-A5BD-1C549ED2CF43@arbor.net> <56FD954F.3020001@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 21:46:29 -0000 On 1 Apr 2016, at 4:23, Flemming Andreasen wrote: > You snipped my question though so I will now ask you for the third > time to please answer that. I thought I answered all your questions, as you very nicely summed up what you believed to be my view of the DOTS relay, which summary I acknowledged as being accurate. I'm not trying to avoid any question you have. What is it specifically that I haven't answered? > I did not say that the architecture draft precludes anything. How should 'out of scope' be interpreted, if not to preclude something? > Please reply with the proper context instead of selectively deleting > context. I think we have differing philosophies with regards to email replies. My philosophy is to elide everything which isn't being directly replied to in my reply, so that successive email replies don't grow into unreadable messes. > I did not say I find the Diameter model attractive. What I did say is > that it defines the notion of relays (in contract to BGP) and hence it > may be worth looking at. The functions of Diameter relays, proxies, and translators map quite well onto projected DOTS relay functions, IMHO, as does the Diameter redirect. Are we somehow talking at cross purposes with regards to 'hop-by-hop'/'node-by-node'? > Message reliability for example. Without end-to-end acknowledgement > you don't know if your messages are actually delivered to the intended > target Sure you do, at the application layer. Additional supporting confirmation/contradiction comes from external indicators that the desired actions have either been taken or not taken. > Classic man-in-the-middle; confidentiality/privacy and integrity as I > noted previously. Without getting too far into the design weeds, there are ways to ensure end-to-end message authenticity/integrity in a node-by-node communications chain, are there not? The same confidentiality issues arise if a DOTS client or DOTS sever are compromised. Adding a relay node type doesn't increase those risks, IMHO. > Where is that stated and how is that ensured ? It's inherent in the nature of the thing itself. There aren't going to be scads of DOTS clients, servers, or relays. It's ensured via AAA, associated provisioning requirements, and network access control BCPs. > If you do hop-by-hop acknowledgements only and you want to guarantee > reliable delivery (or at least attempt to do), then you need to be > stateful. I was thinking of the reliability issue as being handled at layer-7, per the above. Apologies for being unclear in that regard. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Thu Mar 31 14:52:26 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D935512D0BF for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:52:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mG7ezJWMVETl for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x236.google.com (mail-pa0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD4CB12D0C4 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-x236.google.com with SMTP id zm5so74946847pac.0 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:52:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=CPwvGXVnFMxso2XgZUkcICSAt5dxXR9FLFgxHTbNEvc=; b=ixoTTG+b4uiJcNnvFJEaHcGH59CYInCiCdhmBatkNs+GuXjHJFEQfKY7Q4tBYtwaMW 0E4mdXM/mKp1F6wJb2c/4Nqe5zJ4tXJIVkCLFZGFJQS2Q/1uEVaPV6pftyoJiZqD4RpM MIvxykJuHrAzVQto7sM4j0zvdjdbjE2p2wGO8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=CPwvGXVnFMxso2XgZUkcICSAt5dxXR9FLFgxHTbNEvc=; b=d4oHefktBpUex/B/MgQXSFuquKD0JYBDb11G10AMrkakcXIk2Dd1p0TGA5VROgKtBM ti7JRjkNUZ6eile5+21TKhSydlVz2d22r0Ya+8eld2R75fDBsMAmTTPh72VdD9AePO6D BQ6JKVjifkI0AGo6j+r0ank8EBKiLrEbpIjRuT4mbxV5En4ZLFSUAJ42V74jFSzXe2jB ezKOSSzYulmcrlfvIQmubXK8hvP9bzcWEqoQv5qDBEeAem6wNG8fpLXsc7XNz7Pd8vDq l2M6cViqo2nO2x5x4AJegnhPIzV247NV2W7Clws511g7XWH+pyIxXjaVBVtWHnGLpkff JcJQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJImifcD0nOD/+BR4kQoCSjW5/RC/2raqQ8UAAA89S7vgQoMgvyWdkxNlXwgMbewW2lE X-Received: by 10.66.253.68 with SMTP id zy4mr25175831pac.81.1459461142275; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.144] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q2sm15565250pfq.88.2016.03.31.14.52.20 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:52:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: dots Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 04:52:18 +0700 Message-ID: <5A982FCE-BE06-4527-946D-57F6DCB18F52@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <2ECA80B5-5032-4EC6-BAF2-D97E0C298A71@arbor.net> References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56FD4ADC.4000604@cisco.com> <56FD6190.4090109@cisco.com> <851CD11A-37C6-452C-8905-4239B8F247B6@arbor.net> <56FD7FE4.3010507@cisco.com> <8AAD7FE1-A9D1-43FA-A5BD-1C549ED2CF43@arbor.net> <2ECA80B5-5032-4EC6-BAF2-D97E0C298A71@arbor.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 21:52:25 -0000 On 1 Apr 2016, at 4:01, Andrew Mortensen wrote: > 1) As an aggregation point at e.g. the DOTS client network edge in an > inter-domain use case, simplifying network policy management for the > DOTS client/server relationship, and for operators in both domains. > > 2) As a bridge between signaling sessions using different protocols, > alluded to in I-D.ietf-dots.requirements OP-001. Concur 100%. > Use cases beyond that are murkier to me, and need more discussion, > e.g. could or should a relay operate as a signal reflector? in what > way is that different from a multi-homed client? etc. Redirection is one that comes to mind. Another is policy enforcement/transformation at layer 7. > Flemming’s point regarding confidentiality and privacy concerns in > the hop-by-hop model is valid, particularly around the sort of > delegated ownership of the request for mitigation in the hosted or > tiered services scenario. Can you comment on my reply on this topic to Flemming? > This is a good point. It also raises more questions about the utility > of multiple DOTS relays in the signaling path when those relays are > not owned by the entity originating the request for mitigation or the > entity acting on the request for mitigation. I personally haven't envisaged such a scenario being even theoretically possible nor desirable due to all the out-of-band administrative and policy overhead which would militate against such a model. DOTS communications relationships are 'nailed up', with the possibility redirection to predesignated, mutually-agreed-upon fallbacks, IMHO. Does this make sense? ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Thu Mar 31 15:18:36 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 892B812D506 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:18:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NK9ot0x8Vx4H for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 468B412D1AA for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:18:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4401; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1459462713; x=1460672313; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=uCjePfGchXtEe0pbxS+EOv5gO3DsJ7RoDsf2pxsbRf8=; b=ZmimYj1Mq5JYWNIHaqG6z4PEYxgU2XaTh8LzepY18jvYVf/GmaKrjHPV XV1Vn73Lr20WhifsK4k+5uw/BNNmEc43UhI24Vjzb7l8oLB0vWBCYl+/K fn5JEkDs+B8i5DJFOq/NWRJXySL5kEY2P79aw4gq79G04n7mn7fErKsYr w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D2AQDuof1W/5BdJa1dgzNTfbsUAQ2Bc?= =?us-ascii?q?hcKhWwCgUc4FAEBAQEBAQFlJ4RBAQEBAwEBAQE1NgkBBgsLDgQGCRYPCQMCAQI?= =?us-ascii?q?BFSIOBgEMBgIBAYgbCA7DTwEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQETBIYehEaEDhEBh?= =?us-ascii?q?XQBBIdrkAeOCIFmhE2DBYVVjxUeAQFCggQZFYFRIDCHOYE0AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,424,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="86893559" Received: from rcdn-core-8.cisco.com ([173.37.93.144]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 31 Mar 2016 22:18:06 +0000 Received: from [10.98.149.198] (bxb-fandreas-8815.cisco.com [10.98.149.198]) by rcdn-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2VMI5Go012381; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 22:18:06 GMT To: Roland Dobbins , dots References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56FD4ADC.4000604@cisco.com> <56FD6190.4090109@cisco.com> <851CD11A-37C6-452C-8905-4239B8F247B6@arbor.net> <56FD7FE4.3010507@cisco.com> <8AAD7FE1-A9D1-43FA-A5BD-1C549ED2CF43@arbor.net> <56FD954F.3020001@cisco.com> From: Flemming Andreasen Message-ID: <56FDA21D.1080209@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 18:18:05 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 22:18:35 -0000 On 3/31/16 5:46 PM, Roland Dobbins wrote: > On 1 Apr 2016, at 4:23, Flemming Andreasen wrote: > >> You snipped my question though so I will now ask you for the third >> time to please answer that. > > I thought I answered all your questions, as you very nicely summed up > what you believed to be my view of the DOTS relay, which summary I > acknowledged as being accurate. I'm not trying to avoid any question > you have. > > What is it specifically that I haven't answered? > I'll resend separately. >> I did not say that the architecture draft precludes anything. > > How should 'out of scope' be interpreted, if not to preclude something? > >> Please reply with the proper context instead of selectively deleting >> context. > > I think we have differing philosophies with regards to email replies. > My philosophy is to elide everything which isn't being directly > replied to in my reply, so that successive email replies don't grow > into unreadable messes. > Entirely reasonable as long as you don't change the meaning of what was actually stated. >> I did not say I find the Diameter model attractive. What I did say is >> that it defines the notion of relays (in contract to BGP) and hence >> it may be worth looking at. > > The functions of Diameter relays, proxies, and translators map quite > well onto projected DOTS relay functions, IMHO, as does the Diameter > redirect. > > Are we somehow talking at cross purposes with regards to > 'hop-by-hop'/'node-by-node'? > I don't know, but assuming you will be in Buenos Aires, a higher bw channel is probably a better way of figuring that out. >> Message reliability for example. Without end-to-end acknowledgement >> you don't know if your messages are actually delivered to the >> intended target > > Sure you do, at the application layer. Additional supporting > confirmation/contradiction comes from external indicators that the > desired actions have either been taken or not taken. > Sounds like end-to-end to me. >> Classic man-in-the-middle; confidentiality/privacy and integrity as I >> noted previously. > > Without getting too far into the design weeds, there are ways to > ensure end-to-end message authenticity/integrity in a node-by-node > communications chain, are there not? > Indeed there is, but your original reply said it was node-by-node. > The same confidentiality issues arise if a DOTS client or DOTS sever > are compromised. Adding a relay node type doesn't increase those > risks, IMHO. > If it relays information for N number of clients (where N>1), then the risk is indeed higher. If you were an attacker, would you rather take control of a TLS proxy or a TLS endpoint ? >> Where is that stated and how is that ensured ? > > It's inherent in the nature of the thing itself. There aren't going > to be scads of DOTS clients, servers, or relays. > One of the use cases you presented previously argued that DOTS clients could be per endpoint (I believe you had a phone as an example). There could be a lot of those. Regardless, whether we believe there will be a lot of these or not, I don't think that fundamentally changes anything wrt privacy and confidentiality. Arguments about access to them being "highly restrictive" as a way of addressing those security concerns are (IMO) unlikely to be viewed as adequate to most security/privacy folks these days. Given where these relays would furthermore have to be deployed, I'm not even sure it's feasible in practice. > It's ensured via AAA, associated provisioning requirements, and > network access control BCPs. > >> If you do hop-by-hop acknowledgements only and you want to guarantee >> reliable delivery (or at least attempt to do), then you need to be >> stateful. > > I was thinking of the reliability issue as being handled at layer-7, > per the above. Apologies for being unclear in that regard. > No worries - it sounds like end-to-end to me though, but let's discuss further in Buenos Aires unless you believe we are actually in agreement here. Thanks -- Flemming > ----------------------------------- > Roland Dobbins > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > . > From nobody Thu Mar 31 15:20:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4938812D8AC for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:20:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xFx1-9hJvNnH for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0E2112D89A for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:20:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=790; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1459462829; x=1460672429; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pNdAMPvN5NzhRj4DZju5ITswnF3zOt0735zpa3iXYZI=; b=D6laPceJiWJGDKkjTSq7dm5l+MRwc3HxDPHuKFb98qrtycVN8deyvtFn rmS2luTUD+O7FIWbau1/SmU+O/FVqIF5J90H//OZfGqqcCMmSnvgZhpQ8 YOBVqU/fwX09LhOFGiVb6IVUeTvo6IWWS2n1Mj151CeoRUuy3pSGl53xD c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D0AQAiov1W/4MNJK1UCYMzvGQBDYFyh?= =?us-ascii?q?g0CgUc4FAEBAQEBAQFlJ4RCAQEEODQKAQERCw4EBgkWDwkDAgECATcOBgEMCAE?= =?us-ascii?q?BiCPDXwEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEahh6ERoQVhX8BBJdyjgiJOIVVjxUeAQFCg?= =?us-ascii?q?jKBUSCJHQEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,424,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="86571591" Received: from alln-core-1.cisco.com ([173.36.13.131]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 31 Mar 2016 22:20:29 +0000 Received: from [10.98.149.198] (bxb-fandreas-8815.cisco.com [10.98.149.198]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u2VMKSQd017085; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 22:20:28 GMT To: Roland Dobbins , dots References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56FD4ADC.4000604@cisco.com> <56FD6190.4090109@cisco.com> From: Flemming Andreasen Message-ID: <56FDA2AB.1020908@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 18:20:27 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <56FD6190.4090109@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 22:20:31 -0000 [resending the parts that I don't believe got answered yet] On 3/31/16 1:42 PM, Flemming Andreasen wrote: > > > On 3/31/16 12:26 PM, Roland Dobbins wrote: >> On 31 Mar 2016, at 23:05, Flemming Andreasen wrote: >> >>> Identity and authentication - is it end-to-end or per-hop (or both) ? >> >> Node-by-node - the whole point of the relay is to gain an additional >> layer of indirection. >> > Sure, but but doesn't imply anything wrt to the above. > >>> - Integrity - end-to-end or per-hop (or both) ? >> >> Same as above. >> >>> - Reliability - again, end-to-end or per-hop (or both) ? >> >> Same as above. >> > I was hoping for some actual considerations rather than isolated > statements - can you elaborate on all of the above ? > > Thanks -- Flemming From nobody Thu Mar 31 15:43:23 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D3F812D8CD for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:43:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jPl1m5jLcYSp for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x234.google.com (mail-pf0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 472C412D8CB for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x234.google.com with SMTP id e128so57924340pfe.3 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:43:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=m0; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=QuBPtHEGu3T25I5UOm7QHicXjEM13BQll+orWIl9gYg=; b=hRmT4yfKoCSNp4RnNJYP+jgV9gVx8gAHwX7ZNaSio8j9OlNqxMk6SgCuBYgVOq5qmL D/eRBeQ3HFW5Gd60pmWjuFOzyOyA/P49JFuiDS7lQ7BoLBxP9jK1jHbGniL2amyC/pgM EocpqqMKT7jZ5ta6nd77pD6Snv17EwLAepIZ8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=QuBPtHEGu3T25I5UOm7QHicXjEM13BQll+orWIl9gYg=; b=lSPJqVc6rRbaX9HbSDdFU/kvtcjmyhC04K7JSR9aZ2vv0dSjOcEYDU2EZBPghRsATx GnlWM1oS81kqpj3MDAeNskfuG3x7wCwLSgovFFxghMQ2i51TcqcIw8bMn86d70/EPXdE PsnsSpLMnoxpadGlwvRvAyQqm/gNgHM/xcq3y2pC0QkJiVMJ9O2+6dUX/DhlHXyHZ9kk i5ew0du7CHPGexDpsAF9oqalpBBcmaSJTMAzJXO31Vi7yb+749i6UwvfecTvcuNhut4J Cn6KNO3kazHdPVaB7E5pgFAH8tbBLbgda0y8TTzqt8l+yxm+/F5IgzZqRtzRFV8Phyi+ HA8w== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJisnV4tZxQz7eTzcGfWFy7E6HBvCNLKT9sfBqpe7o0LGQXeb8qTvgVRDWp0GI8122O X-Received: by 10.98.75.147 with SMTP id d19mr25392185pfj.29.1459464195853; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.254.144] (202-176-81-112.static.asianet.co.th. [202.176.81.112]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 3sm15696964pfn.59.2016.03.31.15.43.13 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:43:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roland Dobbins" To: dots Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 05:43:11 +0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <56FDA21D.1080209@cisco.com> References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56FD4ADC.4000604@cisco.com> <56FD6190.4090109@cisco.com> <851CD11A-37C6-452C-8905-4239B8F247B6@arbor.net> <56FD7FE4.3010507@cisco.com> <8AAD7FE1-A9D1-43FA-A5BD-1C549ED2CF43@arbor.net> <56FD954F.3020001@cisco.com> <56FDA21D.1080209@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 22:43:21 -0000 On 1 Apr 2016, at 5:18, Flemming Andreasen wrote: > Indeed there is, but your original reply said it was node-by-node. Indeed, I think we were talking past one another - my mistake! I was referring to the DOTS 'peering' relationship in particular, and whether the DOTS client is required to be cognizant in terms of 'DOTS peering' that there's a DOTS server sitting somewhere 'behind' the relay. > If it relays information for N number of clients (where N>1), then the > risk is indeed higher. If you were an attacker, would you rather take > control of a TLS proxy or a TLS endpoint ? I'd go for the server endpoint. ;> But I'm unsure it's a valid analogy, in this context. DOTS clients, relays and DOTS servers all have the same threat model, IMHO. > If it relays information for N number of clients (where N>1), then the > risk is indeed higher. No higher than a server. Plus, applying a statistical risk factor in this manner isn't necessarily valid, IMHO (we can discuss this in person, no need to type a semi-OT novel into the list). > One of the use cases you presented previously argued that DOTS clients > could be per endpoint (I believe you had a phone as an example). That was meant to represent a specific DOTS client on a specific phone of a designated user who was using it to request DDoS mitigation for a specific public-facing asset, like a Web server or DNS server or SBC or whatnot - it wasn't meant to imply that individual phones were requesting DDoS mitigation services for themselves, heh. Sorry for being unclear! > Arguments about access to them being "highly restrictive" as a way of > addressing those security concerns are (IMO) unlikely to be viewed as > adequate to most security/privacy folks these days. This system must be readily deployable, or it will not be utilized. Latter-day cryptosteria aside, if there's much more configuration of a DOTS client required than setting up 'DOTS peering' with an easily-distributed authentication token between said client and the relevant relay or server, it will likely be a non-starter, IMHO. Note that it's pretty difficult to maintain confidentiality with regards to changes in BGP announcements, changes to authoritative DNS records, network traceroutes, protocol response changes denoting interactive countermeasures, lack of responses allowing the inference of packet filtering, et. al. So, a great deal of the usual confidentiality arguments are actually moot, since these dramas are cited out on the stage of the public Internet, as it were. > Given where these relays would furthermore have to be deployed, I'm > not even sure it's feasible in practice. The network access policy model for DOTS relays (and servers, and clients) should be highly restrictive. And there's a whole bunch of out-of-band admin/policy work which has to get done to even make the system function. We should discuss this in more detail in person, as you indicate. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Thu Mar 31 19:57:03 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C16CC12D16B for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:57:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HZ_n_rJ4Tn3w for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3296B12D10C for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:57:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=954; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1459479421; x=1460689021; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=I1Vi/KZvGw7aobqOhchQRcTLqrxQkIg80bFT8+4/w5U=; b=CA+pKMUvdgIaZ6kngsET8y3NhTAKSfx4r7HzhWwcrkTtwFAJS1LlKvdT zQSmY8F87G3psM0h7sfRNCAppWyyiGDhU6QZ19hjdgUOJuwoyrI1xm4a+ vP+GLvy+RW4i9c2s/yFG9GdgU+Au4BPAgc7VntHb4pNwxhvY4tetxN/p/ 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D1AQDd4v1W/4UNJK1dgzOBVrsOAQ2Bc?= =?us-ascii?q?oYNAoFHOBQBAQEBAQEBZSeEQQEBAQMBOj0SAgEIEiQQMhcOAgQBGogXCMNbAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQMBAQEBAQEBGYYehEaEJoVuAQSXcgGIZIUcjxSPFQEeAQFCgjKBNYhbf?= =?us-ascii?q?gEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.24,425,1454976000"; d="scan'208";a="255171460" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 01 Apr 2016 02:56:59 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-003.cisco.com (xch-rcd-003.cisco.com [173.37.102.13]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u312uxAM024486 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 1 Apr 2016 02:56:59 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-RCD-003.cisco.com (173.37.102.13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 21:56:59 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 21:56:59 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: "Flemming Andreasen (fandreas)" , Roland Dobbins , dots Thread-Topic: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRh2dlMIZy2Ma/lUiRx4Lf0iRGx59tFlQggAb+8wD//7pCYIAAdfoAgAAqJeA= Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 02:56:59 +0000 Message-ID: <4178169b29724b48968ab1a518a04ca2@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <20160320031054.15010.4162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56FD4C72.4090304@cisco.com> <56FD74E8.6030300@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <56FD74E8.6030300@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.84.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-mortensen-dots-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 02:57:03 -0000 >=20 > Confidentiality and privacy concerns would be the typical considerations > here, especially if we get into hosted or tiered services scenarios where= the > DOTS relay may not be owned by the same entity as who is requesting > and/or providing the service. Consider for example a case where we the > DOTS client needs to provide the DOTS server with keying material in orde= r > for the DDoS mitigation service to properly deal with TLS flows. I have assumed DOTS relay is either owned by the DOTS client or DOTS server= . What is the use case for DOTS relay operated by some other entity ? DOTS relay is not transparent proxy, so DOTS client and DOTS relay will hav= e to perform mutual authentication, and DOTS relay and DOTS server will hav= e to perform mutual authentication. If the DOTS relay is not trusted then t= he DOTS client will not reveal the private keys to the DOTS relay.=20 -Tiru >=20 > -- Flemming >=20 From nobody Thu Mar 31 21:56:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F16C512D0E6 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 21:56:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.912 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.912 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CZaDwkELhF2g for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 21:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from guri.nttv6.jp (guri.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:a::4]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F4EC12D0CE for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2016 21:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z.nttv6.jp (z.nttv6.jp [192.168.8.15]) by guri.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 800854E971; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 13:55:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from SR2-nishizuka.local (fujiko.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:136::141]) by z.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 3EEFD3ACA8; Fri, 1 Apr 2016 13:55:57 +0900 (JST) To: "Roman D. Danyliw" , Roland Dobbins , "dots@ietf.org" References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96F75B8@marathon> <794C446F-DDB2-4583-A9A9-7ACE67C0192A@arbor.net> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96F992C@marathon> From: kaname nishizuka Message-ID: <56FDFF5D.8080808@nttv6.jp> Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 13:55:57 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFCD96F992C@marathon> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Unique use cases X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 04:56:01 -0000 Hi Roman, The questions are related to my draft. Sorry for my late reply, I added comments inline. On 2016/04/01 4:25, Roman D. Danyliw wrote: > Hi Roland! > > (chair hat off) >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins >> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 8:05 AM >> To: dots@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Dots] Unique use cases >> >> On 30 Mar 2016, at 5:30, Roman D. Danyliw wrote: > [snip] > >>> (1) What's the difference between [WG-UC]'s [WG-UC]-2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 >>> beyond the kind of device acting as the DOTS client? The write-ups >>> are nearly identical. >> That's the point - to illustrate that different types of devices/applications can >> participate in DOTS, and that all the other differences are largely irrelevant to >> the actual requirements of DOTS, and that DOTS has universal applicability. > I agree on the intent. IMHO, by repeating the text so many times, this universal applicability and common behavior regardless of device got lost. > > [snip] >>> (2) What's the difference between [ID-UC]'s [UD-UC]-1 (Section 4.1.1) >>> and 2 (Section 4.1.2); and [WG-UC]-1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6? >> There is no Section 4.1.1 nor Section 4.1.2 in draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01, >> IIRC? > The cited section numbers were for draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-usecases-01 [aka, ID-UC]. I didn't cite the section numbers for draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01 [aka, WG-UC]. > >>> (3) What's the difference between [ID-UC]'s [ID-UC]-3 (Section 4.2.1) >>> and [ID-UC]-4 (Section 4.2.2); and [IDC-UC]-1 (Section 3.1)? >> Are you asking about the delta between the specific use cases in the two >> draft versions? > Ignoring, draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01, I was trying to understand the difference between use cases #3 and 4 in Section 4.2.1/4.2.2 in draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-usecases-01 [aka, ID-UC]; relative to use case #1 in Section 3.1 of draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00 [aka, IDC-UC]. Are the former two use cases the same as the latter? > First, [ID-UC]-4,5 is intended to be identical with [IDC-UC]-1,2. (related to (4)): [ID-UC]-4 == [IDC-UC]-1, [ID-UC]-5 == [IDC-UC]-2. [ID-UC]-4 (Mutual delegation) is a combination of [ID-UC]-3(delegation model), however, they have a slight difference. The uniqueness of [ID-UC]-4 is that they utilize the DDoS protection system each other. Hence, it causes a coordination problem like how to determine the range of the protection they cover. >>> (4) [ID-UC]-5 and [IDC-UC]-2 appear to be acknowledged as the same use >>> case in Section 4.2.3 of [ID-UC]. Is that correct? >> Unfortunately, I'm very confused by all the new acronyms and reliance on >> numbers which don't actually appear in the documents - there is no Section >> 4.2.3 in draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-01. Can you provide more context? >> Apologies for my confusion! > Sorry for the confusion. Let me expand my notation for clarity ... > > Use case #5 in Section 4.2.3 of draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-usecases-01 [aka, ID-UC] appears to state that it is identical to use case #2 in Section 3.2 of draft-nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism-00 [aka, IDC-UC]. Is that correct? yes, it's correct. thank you, kaname > Roman > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots