From nobody Wed Nov 2 12:46:58 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC41812986F for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 12:46:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.396 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.396 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SAzAEJLz79iI for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 12:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 336AB127076 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 12:46:55 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.31,436,1473112800"; d="scan'208,217";a="243319248" Received: from static-176-183-206-74.ncc.abo.bbox.fr (HELO [192.168.1.40]) ([176.183.206.74]) by mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA; 02 Nov 2016 20:46:53 +0100 Message-ID: <581A42AD.1010405@inria.fr> Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2016 20:46:53 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsO0bWUgRnJhbsOnb2lz?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dots@ietf.org References: <147793902181.23181.8927653654683226398.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <147793902181.23181.8927653654683226398.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <147793902181.23181.8927653654683226398.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010605070400090301040707" Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-francois-dots-ipv6-signal-option-01.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2016 19:46:58 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010605070400090301040707 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -------- Message transféré -------- Sujet : New Version Notification for draft-francois-dots-ipv6-signal-option-01.txt Date : Mon, 31 Oct 2016 11:37:01 -0700 De : internet-drafts@ietf.org Pour : Jerome Francois , Giovane Moura , Abdelkader Lahmadi , Marco Davids , Giovane C. M. Moura A new version of I-D, draft-francois-dots-ipv6-signal-option-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Jerome Francois and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-francois-dots-ipv6-signal-option Revision: 01 Title: IPv6 DOTS Signal Option Document date: 2016-10-31 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 15 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-francois-dots-ipv6-signal-option-01.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-francois-dots-ipv6-signal-option/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-francois-dots-ipv6-signal-option-01 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-francois-dots-ipv6-signal-option-01 Abstract: This document specifies an optional fall-back opportunistic method that employs the IPv6 Hop-by-Hop options extension header type. It allows a DOTS client to send a signaling message over a congested network due to a DDoS attack by ''tagging'' bypassing outgoing IPv6 packets to reach a DOTS server or gateway. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --------------010605070400090301040707 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


-------- Message transféré --------
Sujet : New Version Notification for draft-francois-dots-ipv6-signal-option-01.txt
Date : Mon, 31 Oct 2016 11:37:01 -0700
De : internet-drafts@ietf.org
Pour : Jerome Francois <jerome.francois@inria.fr>, Giovane Moura <giovane.moura@sidn.nl>, Abdelkader Lahmadi <abdelkader.lahmadi@loria.fr>, Marco Davids <marco.davids@sidn.nl>, Giovane C. M. Moura <giovane.moura@sidn.nl> 


A new version of I-D, draft-francois-dots-ipv6-signal-option-01.txt
has been successfully submitted by Jerome Francois and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-francois-dots-ipv6-signal-option
Revision:	01
Title:		IPv6 DOTS Signal Option
Document date:	2016-10-31
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		15
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-francois-dots-ipv6-signal-option-01.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-francois-dots-ipv6-signal-option/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-francois-dots-ipv6-signal-option-01
Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-francois-dots-ipv6-signal-option-01

Abstract:
   This document specifies an optional fall-back opportunistic method
   that employs the IPv6 Hop-by-Hop options extension header type. It
   allows a DOTS client to send a signaling message over a congested
   network due to a DDoS attack by ''tagging'' bypassing outgoing IPv6
   packets to reach a DOTS server or gateway.


                                                                                  


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


--------------010605070400090301040707-- From nobody Thu Nov 10 11:00:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53CA0129972 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 11:00:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8HUAO4YzDRBA for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 11:00:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from plainfield.sei.cmu.edu (plainfield.sei.cmu.edu [192.58.107.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5A1E12711D for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 11:00:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from timber.sei.cmu.edu (timber.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.21.23]) by plainfield.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id uAAJ0gIH029619 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 14:00:42 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cert.org; s=jthatj15xw2j; t=1478804442; bh=8MpHgEAK8B1Q5famxdd9Laj2z8/ZxALIw9rfoA2e5Zo=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Sender: Reply-To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=VXbCOhYKBNlojw1nogzNWV1sCLRIdlbBf0gX4t0ZT2rje5Os6qMhlDjSsFvUVw/rR oVE0UDrRYPYncVqojADrt47nXcUfPFwi7c4B3+yJradmJ1NzTFirPCwtAlvpH/tDlO NAXjcBKzE4qKz/fvxld9adu3wP++k/IjhtQTSsqA= Received: from CASCADE.ad.sei.cmu.edu (cascade.ad.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.28.248]) by timber.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id uAAJ0WPY026605 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 14:00:32 -0500 Received: from MARATHON.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.250]) by CASCADE.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.248]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 14:00:32 -0500 From: "Roman D. Danyliw" To: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Revised Agenda for IETF 97 DOTS Meeting on Nov 18th Thread-Index: AdI7hAv6tGN+FpuBTCusf0ePP+kzhA== Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 19:00:31 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE5BD@marathon> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE5BDmarathon_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] Revised Agenda for IETF 97 DOTS Meeting on Nov 18th X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 19:00:45 -0000 --_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE5BDmarathon_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello! We're scheduled to meet during IETF 97 on Friday, November 18 at 0930 - 113= 0. The agenda has been revised a few times since the draft was published. = The following is the current thinking: source: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/97/agenda/dots/ =3D=3D=3D=3D 1. Note well, logistics and introduction (chairs, 5 min) 2. Use Case Discussion (15 min) - draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-02 (Roland Dobbins, 10 min) - Additional use cases discussion (5 min) 3. Requirements Discussion (10 min) - draft-ietf-dots-requirements-03 (Andrew Mortensen, 5 min) - Additional requirements discussion (5 min) 4. Architecture Discussion (10 min) - draft-ietf-dots-architecture-01 (Andrew Mortensen, 5 min) - Additional architecture discussion (5 min) 5. Data and Information Model(s) Discussion (15 min) - draft-andreasen-dots-info-data-model-01 (Flemming Andreasen, 10 min) - Additional discussion (5 min) 6. Protocol Drafts (50 min) - draft-teague-dots-protocol-00 (Andrew Mortensen and Nik Teague, 15 min= ) - draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 (TBD, 15 min) - draft-reddy-dots-signal-channel-02 (Flemming Andreasen, 10 min) 7. Related Work (20 min) - draft-moskowitz-dots-identities-00 (Robert Moskowitz, 10 min) 8. Open Mic (10 min) 9. Closing (chairs, 5 min) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Safe travels! Regards, Roman --_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE5BDmarathon_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello!

We’re scheduled to meet during IETF 97 on Frid= ay, November 18 at 0930 – 1130.  The agenda has been revised a f= ew times since the draft was published.  The following is the current = thinking:

 

source: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/97/agenda/dots/

=3D=3D=3D=3D

1. Note well, logistics and introduction (chairs, 5 = min)

 

2. Use Case Discussion (15 min)

   - draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-02 (Ro= land Dobbins, 10 min)

   - Additional use cases discussion (5 mi= n)

 

3. Requirements Discussion (10 min)

   - draft-ietf-dots-requirements-03 (Andr= ew Mortensen, 5 min)

   - Additional requirements discussion (5= min)

 

4. Architecture Discussion (10 min)

   - draft-ietf-dots-architecture-01 (Andr= ew Mortensen, 5 min)

   - Additional architecture discussion (5= min)

 

5. Data and Information Model(s) Discussion (15 min)=

   - draft-andreasen-dots-info-data-model-= 01 (Flemming Andreasen, 10 min)

   - Additional discussion (5 min)

 

6. Protocol Drafts (50 min)

   - draft-teague-dots-protocol-00 (Andrew= Mortensen and Nik Teague, 15 min)

   - draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 (TBD, 1= 5 min)

   - draft-reddy-dots-signal-channel-02 (F= lemming Andreasen, 10 min)

 

7. Related Work (20 min)

   - draft-moskowitz-dots-identities-00 (R= obert Moskowitz, 10 min)

 

8. Open Mic (10 min)

 

9. Closing (chairs, 5 min)

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 

Safe travels!

 

Regards,

Roman

--_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE5BDmarathon_-- From nobody Thu Nov 10 20:29:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 805CE129880 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 20:29:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id apSBiVPJ36Qc for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 20:29:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from plainfield.sei.cmu.edu (plainfield.sei.cmu.edu [192.58.107.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED3C1129473 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 20:29:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from pawpaw.sei.cmu.edu (pawpaw.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.21.22]) by plainfield.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id uAB4Td1d011852; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 23:29:39 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cert.org; s=jthatj15xw2j; t=1478838579; bh=3CQ5kece1TXUh6I9N+zvru0Zj2ehTYQ6PIft/z7kTPQ=; h=From:To:CC:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version: Sender:Reply-To:In-Reply-To:References; b=XDPxhcaMuoL53obKGRAGIgMZHtTp1k9HnQlD4hHTvpJHfI7xJVpZJtoyaW1J4vcFm 3rCiZUn4PBX2kXLPSfAPqaH7m6NvwRCBKZ9hdSfG/i0GGhDRxeXvIPrnBylZAEJrw6 NIlFaSgZsVXNvouQr3g1Ny8eLVmP62HuLebUDgSQ= Received: from CASCADE.ad.sei.cmu.edu (cascade.ad.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.28.248]) by pawpaw.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id uAB4TbQo009797; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 23:29:37 -0500 Received: from MARATHON.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.250]) by CASCADE.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.248]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 23:29:37 -0500 From: "Roman D. Danyliw" To: "ehudd@radware.com" , "tireddy@cisco.com" , "fandreas@cisco.com" , "Xialiang (Frank)" , kaname nishizuka Thread-Topic: Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 Thread-Index: AdI7wYm473OfPCFJSFe1ONIXj1qG/g== Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 04:29:37 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B8@marathon> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B8marathon_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "dots@ietf.org" Subject: [Dots] Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 04:29:49 -0000 --_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B8marathon_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Ehud, Tiru, Flemming, Frank and Kaname! Thanks for producing and submitting this draft! Without getting into the details, what did you have in mind with this draft= . Specifically: (1) Is there an undocumented telemetry use case that needs to be added to t= he use case WG document? Section 4.0 suggests that. (2) Is there another protocol draft coming that will incorporate the attrib= utes enumerated in Section 3? Or are the existing protocol drafts supposed= to adopted these? (3) What is the relationship you see between this draft and draft-andreasen= -dots-info-data-model-01 (especially given all the authors on the latter ar= e in the former as well)? Thanks, Roman --_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B8marathon_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Ehud, Tiru, Flemming, Frank and Kaname!

 

Thanks for producing and submitting this draft!=

 

Without getting into the details, what did you have = in mind with this draft.  Specifically:

 

(1) Is there an undocumented telemetry use case that= needs to be added to the use case WG document?  Section 4.0 suggests = that.

 

(2) Is there another protocol draft coming that will= incorporate the attributes enumerated in Section 3?  Or are the exist= ing protocol drafts supposed to adopted these?

 

(3) What is the relationship you see between this dr= aft and draft-andreasen-dots-info-data-model-01 (especially given all the a= uthors on the latter are in the former as well)?

 

Thanks,

Roman

 

--_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B8marathon_-- From nobody Thu Nov 10 20:30:03 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A885B12998B for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 20:30:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mPfoeLuqV40A for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 20:30:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from shetland.sei.cmu.edu (shetland.sei.cmu.edu [192.58.107.44]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 419EC129532 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 20:30:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from timber.sei.cmu.edu (timber.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.21.23]) by shetland.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id uAB4Tk9C012578; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 23:29:46 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cert.org; s=jthatj15xw2j; t=1478838586; bh=1z+M3a1DAr5HI7uhi+c8qBO6nhK8/9cCm+TOvF5Vgl0=; h=From:To:CC:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version: Sender:Reply-To:In-Reply-To:References; b=RpeCq99ptGX1xOFMhzfL0mI8Cw/hBVeQimbPs/zjLRF7+kVmwYLAe7+CZKE2162K9 RTbPamEckU9quUSr+cin4TcKarreeH0Huo4+8r4i8WdRLMf+eoYqSDB8dHVcVjwj4T xZKNZ+YMDwZVOJsFOSGXcmJLXZ4nwjaIMkbTnpxw= Received: from CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu (cassina.ad.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.28.249]) by timber.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id uAB4Ta37013833; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 23:29:36 -0500 Received: from MARATHON.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.250]) by CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.249]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 23:29:36 -0500 From: "Roman D. Danyliw" To: Robert Moskowitz , "Xialiang (Frank)" , Daniel Migault , "Mortensen, Andrew" Thread-Topic: Questions about draft-moskowitz-dots-identities-00 Thread-Index: AdI7vmbRstk6tS6tShW+0UHTH/Bmgg== Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 04:29:33 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B1@marathon> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B1marathon_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "dots@ietf.org" Subject: [Dots] Questions about draft-moskowitz-dots-identities-00 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 04:30:02 -0000 --_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B1marathon_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Bob, Frank, Daniel and Andrew! Thanks for producing and submitting this draft! (chair hat off) The document lays out the a strong case in Section 1 about why in the abstr= act human readable names have problems. Section 1.1 and 1.2 highlight alte= rnatives. However, I'm having difficulty linking these approaches with spe= cific applications in a particular DOTS protocol draft. Can you share a bi= t more of what you had in mind in applying 802.1AR or RFC7401? Thanks, Roman --_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B1marathon_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Bob, Frank, Daniel and Andrew!

 

Thanks for producing and submitting this draft!=

 

(chair hat off)

 

The document lays out the a strong case in Section 1= about why in the abstract human readable names have problems.  Sectio= n 1.1 and 1.2 highlight alternatives.  However, I’m having diffi= culty linking these approaches with specific applications in a particular DOTS protocol draft.  Can you share a bit more of wha= t you had in mind in applying 802.1AR or RFC7401?

 

Thanks,

Roman

 

--_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B1marathon_-- From nobody Thu Nov 10 20:42:08 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 457C21299A6 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 20:42:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.697 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i8MaNdAE3Qmg for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 20:42:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49FFE129473 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 20:42:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC6DB6236A; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 23:42:03 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id BUcIguTCzf-X; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 23:41:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (unknown [121.131.192.98]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A6C2A62363; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 23:41:52 -0500 (EST) To: "Roman D. Danyliw" , "Xialiang (Frank)" , Daniel Migault , "Mortensen, Andrew" References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B1@marathon> From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <21775d0c-e994-d337-9028-bafcfe160515@htt-consult.com> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 13:41:46 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B1@marathon> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------BF1E534C44E7A42D90455384" Archived-At: Cc: "dots@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Dots] Questions about draft-moskowitz-dots-identities-00 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 04:42:08 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BF1E534C44E7A42D90455384 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I had limited time and thought organization to 'get it all down' and still working. Almost regardless of the security mechanism used for DOTS transport(s), identities are crucial and called out in the requirements draft for 'mutual authentication' (I would have to pull up the draft. I will add a section on this on identities-01). So what are the identities used for mutual authentication? X.509 certs are often used for this, but how does a machine acquire its cert? A very involved and painful human controlled process or something better? IEEE 802.1AR lays the groundwork for device identities. ANIMA and NETCONF are working on leveraging this. I have spoken with Max and others, and have my thoughts on how to do close to a 'zerotouch' for certificates in DOTS agents. As to RawPublicKeys, it again comes down to the security protocol. DTLS with CoAP particularly uses RawPublicKeys. Or there is HIP/ESP or other work I am doing where HITs can fit the bill. So I am laying out here how identities are setup. I will send you my transport thoughts that have been going between Frank, Sue Hares, and me shortly. On 11/11/2016 01:29 PM, Roman D. Danyliw wrote: > > Hello Bob, Frank, Daniel and Andrew! > > Thanks for producing and submitting this draft! > > (chair hat off) > > The document lays out the a strong case in Section 1 about why in the > abstract human readable names have problems. Section 1.1 and 1.2 > highlight alternatives. However, I’m having difficulty linking these > approaches with specific applications in a particular DOTS protocol > draft. Can you share a bit more of what you had in mind in applying > 802.1AR or RFC7401? > > Thanks, > > Roman > --------------BF1E534C44E7A42D90455384 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I had limited time and thought organization to 'get it all down' and still working.

Almost regardless of the security mechanism used for DOTS transport(s), identities are crucial and called out in the requirements draft for 'mutual authentication'  (I would have to pull up the draft.  I will add a section on this on identities-01).  So what are the identities used for mutual authentication?

X.509 certs are often used for this, but how does a machine acquire its cert?  A very involved and painful human controlled process or something better?  IEEE 802.1AR lays the groundwork for device identities.  ANIMA and NETCONF are working on leveraging this.  I have spoken with Max and others, and have my thoughts on how to do close to a 'zerotouch' for certificates in DOTS agents.

As to RawPublicKeys, it again comes down to the security protocol.  DTLS with CoAP particularly uses RawPublicKeys.  Or there is HIP/ESP or other work I am doing where HITs can fit the bill.

So I am laying out here how identities are setup.  I will send you my transport thoughts that have been going between Frank, Sue Hares, and me shortly.

On 11/11/2016 01:29 PM, Roman D. Danyliw wrote:

Hello Bob, Frank, Daniel and Andrew!

 

Thanks for producing and submitting this draft!

 

(chair hat off)

 

The document lays out the a strong case in Section 1 about why in the abstract human readable names have problems.  Section 1.1 and 1.2 highlight alternatives.  However, I’m having difficulty linking these approaches with specific applications in a particular DOTS protocol draft.  Can you share a bit more of what you had in mind in applying 802.1AR or RFC7401?

 

Thanks,

Roman

 


--------------BF1E534C44E7A42D90455384-- From nobody Fri Nov 11 06:51:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08CB712999F for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 06:50:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0BpSQKYtGxl0 for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 06:50:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from shetland.sei.cmu.edu (shetland.sei.cmu.edu [192.58.107.44]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E61731295BC for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 06:50:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from timber.sei.cmu.edu (timber.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.21.23]) by shetland.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id uABEorJe027220; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 09:50:53 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cert.org; s=jthatj15xw2j; t=1478875853; bh=aNylLCvIgWNUnnYl7nwZPQKEhNnDp2Zk++j6Ok2kzKo=; h=From:To:CC:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version: Sender:Reply-To:In-Reply-To:References; b=J6xh9zZLVb9BYacwtJ2f0MVUS+gZPX6EfPd12eIa/2jwmNy5gtWy/HhBWt2fYIjG8 3NcRhCyr9FwG3rpgOp/Lbpg8bCHdvmjcmDZhnTgFlRJ9QVvR5f+uKgrC1oTi/yQkMe breo7KXT7OpMfVb2p7W0twqHIG5yjZeZxKCBR2JA= Received: from CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu (cassina.ad.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.28.249]) by timber.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id uABEoowd004899; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 09:50:50 -0500 Received: from MARATHON.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.250]) by CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.249]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 09:50:49 -0500 From: "Roman D. Danyliw" To: Flemming Andreasen , "'Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)'" Thread-Topic: draft-andreasen-dots-info-data-model-01 feedback Thread-Index: AdI8HNmty5hVyO32RvKRVPx3YhO6ig== Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 14:50:48 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAEB7B@marathon> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAEB7Bmarathon_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "dots@ietf.org" Subject: [Dots] draft-andreasen-dots-info-data-model-01 feedback X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 14:50:59 -0000 --_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAEB7Bmarathon_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Flemming and Tiru! (chair hat off) In reading through draft-andreasen-dots-info-data-model-01, I had the follo= wing comments/questions: (1) The title suggests that the goal is for an information _and_ data model= to be documented. I didn't see much distinction made between the two in t= he text. Is the thinking to cover both? (2) I really like the enumeration of information elements in Section 3.4 an= d think this will be helpful for the authors of the solutions drafts. I st= ruggled with the Section 3.2 a bit and may not fully understand what you ha= d in mind. My thinking for an information model document would be enumerat= ing and describing information elements; and where appropriate, the interre= lationship between them. The current text seems to go one step further wit= h protocol semantics and abstract message formats. I would have considered= these out of scope for an information model. (3) In Section 3.1, the parameters categorized as mandatory, optional and e= xtensions. Is the text implying that these are three mutually exclusive ca= tegories? For example, an extension, when used, cannot have mandatory fiel= ds? (4) Section 3.1 - 3.3 discuss message parameters. Section 3.4 enumerates i= nformation elements. The link between parameters and information elements = is never explicitly stated. Roman --_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAEB7Bmarathon_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Flemming and Tiru!

 

(chair hat off)

In reading through draft-andreasen-dots-info-data-mo= del-01, I had the following comments/questions:

 

(1) The title suggests that the goal is for an infor= mation _and_ data model to be documented.  I didn’t see much dis= tinction made between the two in the text.  Is the thinking to cover b= oth?

 

(2) I really like the enumeration of information ele= ments in Section 3.4 and think this will be helpful for the authors of the = solutions drafts.  I struggled with the Section 3.2 a bit and may not = fully understand what you had in mind.  My thinking for an information model document would be enumerating and des= cribing information elements; and where appropriate, the interrelationship = between them.  The current text seems to go one step further with prot= ocol semantics and abstract message formats.  I would have considered these out of scope for an information model.=

 

(3) In Section 3.1, the parameters categorized as ma= ndatory, optional and extensions.  Is the text implying that these are= three mutually exclusive categories?  For example, an extension, when= used, cannot have mandatory fields?

 

(4) Section 3.1 - 3.3 discuss message parameters.&nb= sp; Section 3.4 enumerates information elements.  The link between par= ameters and information elements is never explicitly stated.

 

Roman

 

 

 

--_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAEB7Bmarathon_-- From nobody Fri Nov 11 13:27:56 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67156129400 for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 13:27:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0NMNdoiUKBxv for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 13:27:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from plainfield.sei.cmu.edu (plainfield.sei.cmu.edu [192.58.107.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9163129687 for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 13:27:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from timber.sei.cmu.edu (timber.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.21.23]) by plainfield.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id uABLReS2005720; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:27:40 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cert.org; s=jthatj15xw2j; t=1478899660; bh=GTGVB67moqXDokn65vRywS+FR0h3kdkAFzBrlLjzZc0=; h=From:To:CC:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version: Sender:Reply-To:In-Reply-To:References; b=WWYk+cOOriElGwFeflMgj8QeeR87xTkNpj+6Eg3E+qR6AuK+Q5pRsET0xS8Um7h4g 2XdJi7dUv/WRl14JhsKGHtj6DSkF8SHp87DULc/xFN8/4PV11tIQF/27GGbCgxiD3b gPypVbig7kmvyBa4ETSuezDN9v6H8z9KVJUkpb0U= Received: from CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu (cassina.ad.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.28.249]) by timber.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/1543) with ESMTP id uABLRZFT014291; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:27:35 -0500 Received: from MARATHON.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.250]) by CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.249]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:27:35 -0500 From: "Roman D. Danyliw" To: "rdobbins@arbor.net" , Daniel Migault , Robert Moskowitz , "Teague, Nik" , "Xialiang (Frank)" Thread-Topic: Feedback on draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-02 Thread-Index: AdI8Vz5mHmnppw8DR6aAFuUtzCRGpw== Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 21:27:34 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAF01A@marathon> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAF01Amarathon_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "dots@ietf.org" Subject: [Dots] Feedback on draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-02 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 21:27:55 -0000 --_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAF01Amarathon_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Roland, Daniel, Bob, Nik and Frank! (Chair hat off) Thanks for producing this -02 draft. The following is feedback from review= ing this draft: =3D=3D[ Section 3 ]=3D=3D ** It's stated that "[a]ll scenarios presents [sic] a coordination between = the DDoS target, the DDoS attack telemetry and the mitigator". These three= terms of "target", "attack telemetry" and "mitigator" are not the same. "= target" and "mitigator" are elements of the architecture. "Attack telemetr= y" is data that is exchanged. I'm not sure how these dissimilar things can= be coordinated together. Also per the definitions in the requirements doc= ument, "DDoS target" should be "DDoS attack target". =3D=3D[ Section 3.1 ]=3D=3D ** The use case name, "CPE Intra-domain ...", is misleading. Yes, the equi= pment is at the customer location, but the significant property about these= devices is not their location but their inability to send telemetry (or an= ything beyond "help is needed"). Their characterization as "very basic equ= ipment" is vague and unclear. I'd recommend using a different name for thi= s use case and alternative language to characterize these devices. ** The acronym "CPE" is not spelled out the first time it is used. ** A reference to "the upstream equipment belong [sic] to the same domain" = is made. What makes a domain is not made clear. Given that a distinction = is being made between intra and inter domain use cases, it would be valuabl= e to expand on this key idea. ** The statement "that a specific contract is established between the CPE .= .." is made. What kind of contract? Legal? It should be explicitly state= d. ** The statement "[t]he CPE and concerned traffic is likely to be identifie= d by the source of the alert" is made. What is "concerned traffic"? Also,= what is meant by the CPE being "identified by the source of the alert"? ** The statement "[t]he DDoS mitigation service may be activated only for t= he traffic associated to the CPE sending the alert or instead to the traffi= c associated to all CPEs" is made. What is meant by "all CPEs" isn't clear= . =3D=3D[ Section 3.2 ]=3D=3D ** As noted for Section 3.1, this use case name, "Service/System" isn't cle= ar. The distinguishing property of the devices being highlighted in this u= se case seems to be that they are capable of generating telemetry. Their c= haracterization as "specialized equipment" isn't clear. ** The second paragraph states "[s]imilarly when an attack is detected by t= he target service." In this context, it isn't clear what a target service = is. ** In the next sentence, "[t]he destination of the alert is likely to recei= ve alert [sic] from multiple different services". In this context, which s= ervices and destinations are being referenced? ** In the next sentence, "Such information is likely to be trusted and cons= idered by the mitigator to apply the appropriate security appliance". In t= his context, what is a security appliance? ** In the third paragraph, there are multiple references to an "analysis ph= ase". What lifecycle are those phases references? What happens before and= after "analysis"? =3D=3D[ Section 3.3 ]=3D=3D ** The way this use cases is written is inconsistent with Section 3.1 and 3= .2. In those use cases, the scenario was framed in terms of the capabiliti= es of the DOTS client. This scenario is framed around what is added to the= alert sent to the DOTS server. What does this suggest about the capabilit= ies of the DOTS client? =3D=3D[ Section 3.4 ]=3D=3D ** This section describes a use case that arises when there are inter-domai= n issues. However, there is no treatment of why deployments are inter vs. = intra domain makes any difference. =3D=3D[ Section 4.0 ]=3D=3D ** The sentence "A DOTS Client or DOTS Server can be hosted on different no= des which are associated with different functionalities and thus leading to= different expectations from DOTS". What is meant by "different functional= ities" and "expectations of DOTS" isn't clear to me. =3D=3D[ Section 4.1 ]=3D=3D ** The first paragraph restates the role of DOTS client. A similar, but mo= re concise and descriptive description is already found in Section 2.2.1 of= the architecture draft. I'd recommend only one place for this text. ** DOTS client (a).(i) reads "target attack" but likely should be "attack t= arget" ** The purpose of this section isn't clear to me. Paragraph 3 ("When the D= OTS Client is hosted ...") appears to restate and expound about the use cas= e in Section 3.1. The same is true for Paragraph 4 ("When the DOTS Client = is hosted on a monitoring system ...") relative to Section 3.2; and Paragra= ph 5 - 6 to Section 3.3. =3D=3D[ Section 4.2 ]=3D=3D ** The first paragraph ("DOTS Servers terminate ...") doesn't appear to be = consistent with Figure 1 in the architecture draft. ** In the second paragraph, it is stated that "Some DOTS Clients do not exp= ect any interaction from the DOTS Server". This seems to conflict with the= examples in the Appendix. =3D=3D[ Section 4.3 ]=3D=3D I don't disagree with the content, but need help understanding how this sec= tion clarifies the use cases. Regards, Roman --_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAF01Amarathon_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Roland, Daniel, Bob, Nik and Frank!=

 

(Chair hat off)

 

Thanks for producing this -02 draft.  The follo= wing is feedback from reviewing this draft:

 

=3D=3D[ Section 3 ]=3D=3D

 

** It’s stated that “[a]ll scenarios pre= sents [sic] a coordination between the DDoS target, the DDoS attack telemet= ry and the mitigator”.  These three terms of “target”= ;, “attack telemetry” and “mitigator” are not the s= ame.  “target” and “mitigator” are elements of the architecture.  “Att= ack telemetry” is data that is exchanged.  I’m not sure ho= w these dissimilar things can be coordinated together.  Also per the d= efinitions in the requirements document, “DDoS target” should b= e “DDoS attack target”.

 

=3D=3D[ Section 3.1 ]=3D=3D

 

** The use case name, “CPE Intra-domain …= ;”, is misleading.  Yes, the equipment is at the customer locati= on, but the significant property about these devices is not their location = but their inability to send telemetry (or anything beyond “help is needed”).  Their characterization as “very= basic equipment” is vague and unclear.  I’d recommend usi= ng a different name for this use case and alternative language to character= ize these devices.

 

** The acronym “CPE” is not spelled out = the first time it is used.

 

** A reference to “the upstream equipment belo= ng [sic] to the same domain” is made.  What makes a domain is no= t made clear.  Given that a distinction is being made between intra an= d inter domain use cases, it would be valuable to expand on this key idea.

 

** The statement “that a specific contract is = established between the CPE …” is made.  What kind of cont= ract?  Legal?  It should be explicitly stated.

 

** The statement “[t]he CPE and concerned traf= fic is likely to be identified by the source of the alert” is made.&n= bsp; What is “concerned traffic”?  Also, what is meant by = the CPE being “identified by the source of the alert”?

 

** The statement “[t]he DDoS mitigation servic= e may be activated only for the traffic associated to the CPE sending the a= lert or instead to the traffic associated to all CPEs” is made. = What is meant by “all CPEs” isn’t clear.

 

=3D=3D[ Section 3.2 ]=3D=3D

 

** As noted for Section 3.1, this use case name, = 220;Service/System” isn’t clear.  The distinguishing prope= rty of the devices being highlighted in this use case seems to be that they= are capable of generating telemetry.  Their characterization as “specialized equipment” isn’t clear.

 

** The second paragraph states “[s]imilarly wh= en an attack is detected by the target service.”  In this contex= t, it isn’t clear what a target service is.

 

** In the next sentence, “[t]he destination of= the alert is likely to receive alert [sic] from multiple different service= s”.  In this context, which services and destinations are being = referenced?

 

** In the next sentence, “Such information is = likely to be trusted and considered by the mitigator to apply the appropria= te security appliance”.  In this context, what is a security app= liance?

 

** In the third paragraph, there are multiple refere= nces to an “analysis phase”.  What lifecycle are those pha= ses references?  What happens before and after “analysis”?=

 

=3D=3D[ Section 3.3 ]=3D=3D

 

** The way this use cases is written is inconsistent= with Section 3.1 and 3.2.  In those use cases, the scenario was frame= d in terms of the capabilities of the DOTS client.  This scenario is f= ramed around what is added to the alert sent to the DOTS server.  What does this suggest about the capabilities of= the DOTS client?

 

=3D=3D[ Section 3.4 ]=3D=3D

 

** This section describes a use case that arises whe= n there are inter-domain issues.  However, there is no treatment of wh= y deployments are inter vs. intra domain makes any difference.

 

=3D=3D[ Section 4.0 ]=3D=3D

 

** The sentence “A DOTS Client or DOTS Server = can be hosted on different nodes which are associated with different functi= onalities and thus leading to different expectations from DOTS”. = ; What is meant by “different functionalities” and “expectations of DOTS” isn’t clear to me.

 

=3D=3D[ Section 4.1 ]=3D=3D

 

** The first paragraph restates the role of DOTS cli= ent.  A similar, but more concise and descriptive description is alrea= dy found in Section 2.2.1 of the architecture draft.  I’d recomm= end only one place for this text.

 

** DOTS client (a).(i) reads “target attack= 221; but likely should be “attack target”

 

** The purpose of this section isn’t clear to = me.  Paragraph 3 (“When the DOTS Client is hosted …”= ) appears to restate and expound about the use case in Section 3.1.  T= he same is true for Paragraph 4 (“When the DOTS Client is hosted on a monitoring system …”) relative to Section 3.2; and Paragraph= 5 – 6 to Section 3.3.

 

=3D=3D[ Section 4.2 ]=3D=3D

 

** The first paragraph (“DOTS Servers terminat= e …”) doesn’t appear to be consistent with Figure 1 in th= e architecture draft.

 

** In the second paragraph, it is stated that “= ;Some DOTS Clients do not expect any interaction from the DOTS Server”= ;.  This seems to conflict with the examples in the Appendix.

 

=3D=3D[ Section 4.3 ]=3D=3D

 

I don’t disagree with the content, but need he= lp understanding how this section clarifies the use cases.

 

Regards,

Roman

 

 

--_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAF01Amarathon_-- From nobody Sun Nov 13 19:02:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3084D12945E for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:02:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 88f6ZRLjIM4s for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:02:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from bgl-iport-2.cisco.com (bgl-iport-2.cisco.com [72.163.197.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5758129441 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:02:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=10007; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1479092571; x=1480302171; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=ZG3rglZ7q+uLnRvHAnlVYpYAxH1fxMscU8y2cqan30w=; b=KzFIQamd34YWsiMfu+2KBd4Gh3zaALvg+BtwBv2aI9ziJsi0b8i2vyqI Q9rGbNIFuXQ+BdmTTT/3ilUTeGaEjgvHn2K+GSOhp454K6bOeskpyombz XDeBxOeMF4pj/AMkhaPxgDyZnwKrH5bp8dJRRvIFQarhQgvdO0Oi549XT o=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.31,488,1473120000"; d="scan'208,217"; a="65153597" Received: from vla196-nat.cisco.com (HELO bgl-core-1.cisco.com) ([72.163.197.24]) by bgl-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 14 Nov 2016 03:02:47 +0000 Received: from [10.70.230.12] (tky-vpn-client-230-12.cisco.com [10.70.230.12]) by bgl-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id uAE32kC4018381; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 03:02:46 GMT To: "Roman D. Danyliw" , "'Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)'" References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAEB7B@marathon> From: Flemming Andreasen Message-ID: <7e60286b-79a6-8c94-53aa-d73b6387bd9d@cisco.com> Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 22:02:45 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAEB7B@marathon> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------07A4182A1F952E19EB7F8B72" Archived-At: Cc: "dots@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Dots] draft-andreasen-dots-info-data-model-01 feedback X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 03:02:53 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------07A4182A1F952E19EB7F8B72 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/11/16 9:50 AM, Roman D. Danyliw wrote: > > Hello Flemming and Tiru! > > (chair hat off) > > In reading through draft-andreasen-dots-info-data-model-01, I had the > following comments/questions: > > (1) The title suggests that the goal is for an information _and_ data > model to be documented. I didn’t see much distinction made between > the two in the text. Is the thinking to cover both? > I'm not so sure at this point. We have a number of protocol draft proposals at this point, each of which basically include their own data model. The idea with this draft was to come up with a protocol agnostic way of representing the information that was needed for DOTS, so contrary to my original claim, it is probably headed more in the way of an information model draft. > (2) I really like the enumeration of information elements in Section > 3.4 and think this will be helpful for the authors of the solutions > drafts. I struggled with the Section 3.2 a bit and may not fully > understand what you had in mind. My thinking for an information model > document would be enumerating and describing information elements; and > where appropriate, the interrelationship between them. The current > text seems to go one step further with protocol semantics and abstract > message formats. I would have considered these out of scope for an > information model. > I found it difficult to come up with what information elements we want to have without some kind of "information exchange model" in mind and hence what you see in Section 3.2 is an attempt at a protocol agnostic way of describing this in the form of a logical API, while adhering to the overall requirements and architecture (e.g. signal channel with request/response for some exchanges while others need to work unidirectionally, plus a data channel). The API can map to any underlying protocol you desire (e.g. HTTP, COAP, protobufs, or something else running on top of your favorite transport) and there are no assumptions or requirements around exactly how that mapping is done (e.g. 1:1 in terms of messages or not). > (3) In Section 3.1, the parameters categorized as mandatory, optional > and extensions. Is the text implying that these are three mutually > exclusive categories? For example, an extension, when used, cannot > have mandatory fields? > I suppose an extension can always define its own internal structure with some parts mandatory and some not, but the intent was that a particular extension is either supported by a particular implementation or not. > (4) Section 3.1 - 3.3 discuss message parameters. Section 3.4 > enumerates information elements. The link between parameters and > information elements is never explicitly stated. > We'll fix that in the next version. Thanks for the comments Roman -- Flemming > Roman > --------------07A4182A1F952E19EB7F8B72 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 11/11/16 9:50 AM, Roman D. Danyliw wrote:

Hello Flemming and Tiru!

 

(chair hat off)

In reading through draft-andreasen-dots-info-data-model-01, I had the following comments/questions:

 

(1) The title suggests that the goal is for an information _and_ data model to be documented.  I didn’t see much distinction made between the two in the text.  Is the thinking to cover both?

 

I'm not so sure at this point. We have a number of protocol draft proposals at this point, each of which basically include their own data model. The idea with this draft was to come up with a protocol agnostic way of representing the information that was needed for DOTS, so contrary to my original claim, it is probably headed more in the way of an information model draft.


(2) I really like the enumeration of information elements in Section 3.4 and think this will be helpful for the authors of the solutions drafts.  I struggled with the Section 3.2 a bit and may not fully understand what you had in mind.  My thinking for an information model document would be enumerating and describing information elements; and where appropriate, the interrelationship between them.  The current text seems to go one step further with protocol semantics and abstract message formats.  I would have considered these out of scope for an information model.

 

I found it difficult to come up with what information elements we want to have without some kind of "information exchange model" in mind and hence what you see in Section 3.2 is an attempt at a protocol agnostic way of describing this in the form of a logical API, while adhering to the overall requirements and architecture (e.g. signal channel with request/response for some exchanges while others need to work unidirectionally, plus a data channel). The API can map to any underlying protocol you desire (e.g. HTTP, COAP, protobufs, or something else running on top of your favorite transport) and there are no assumptions or requirements around exactly how that mapping is done (e.g. 1:1 in terms of messages or not).


(3) In Section 3.1, the parameters categorized as mandatory, optional and extensions.  Is the text implying that these are three mutually exclusive categories?  For example, an extension, when used, cannot have mandatory fields?

I suppose an extension can always define its own internal structure with some parts mandatory and some not, but the intent was that a particular extension is either supported by a particular implementation or not.

 

(4) Section 3.1 - 3.3 discuss message parameters.  Section 3.4 enumerates information elements.  The link between parameters and information elements is never explicitly stated.

We'll fix that in the next version.


Thanks for the comments Roman

-- Flemming


 

Roman

 

 

 


--------------07A4182A1F952E19EB7F8B72-- From nobody Sun Nov 13 20:39:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B04B12944D for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 20:39:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MISSING_MIMEOLE=1.899, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=tobias.gondrom@gondrom.org header.d=gondrom.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HoIwu6VhOfeT for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 20:39:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from gondrom.org (www.gondrom.org [5.35.241.16]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47C50127058 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 20:39:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from seraph (dhcp-814a.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.129.74]) by gondrom.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B521A62E64; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 05:39:11 +0100 (CET) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=gondrom.org; b=1WcQ5Rpcn6/8+xmOFVYYGFNm14fDDmmzVtjEA6ZT0M9Gc8heBCDMmTXljscp82kIx0nMBskev2yLplGdhY9Pui77m7ykRRwUeNUPUK7ULEvCpDp+ULVTn8m8pxVnVcEeWLiavt4EGr7pRFTW7N6RnPLlv+um+FCMxLIQOECfIJU=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language:Importance; From: "Tobias Gondrom" To: Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 12:38:56 +0800 Message-ID: <054b01d23e31$05f99cd0$11ecd670$@gondrom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_054C_01D23E74.1420AD60" X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AdI+MKHTaTpp/aRxSji4nHdamFv2gQ== Content-Language: en-us Importance: High Archived-At: Cc: "'Roman D. Danyliw'" Subject: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 04:39:17 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_054C_01D23E74.1420AD60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear DOTS team, Following our good experience at the last meeting, we would like to propose also for this meeting two design team meeting slots. As at the last meeting lunch meetings seemed to have had the least conflicts, we suggest to continue with that. We would propose the following two slots and arranged a room for that. If these slots do not work or have serious conflicts, please let us know. 1. Design Team meeting: Use cases Tuesday Nov-15 12:00 - 14:00KST Room: Studio 7, on 6th floor. Some questions for this meeting: - how can we improve the quality of the use case document? - have the inter-domain use cases been properly included in the use case draft? - have the use cases from the telemetry draft been sufficiently included in the use case draft? 2. Design Team meeting: Protocol discussion Thursday Nov-17 12:00 - 14:00KST Room: Studio 7, on 6th floor. Some questions for this meeting: - protocols - what messages are exchanged, contents of messages - relationship with info-model draft - converging and getting to protocol WG draft Best regards, Tobias & Roman (DOTS WG chairs) Ps.: and a reminder: our DOTS WG meeting will be on Friday morning, 9:30am (Korean time) ------=_NextPart_000_054C_01D23E74.1420AD60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear DOTS team,

 

Following = our good experience at the last meeting, we would like to propose also = for this meeting two design team meeting slots.

As at the last meeting lunch meetings seemed to have = had the least conflicts, we suggest to continue with that. =

 

We would propose the following two slots and arranged = a room for that.

If these slots do = not work or have serious conflicts, please let us know. =

 

1. Design Team meeting: Use = cases

Tuesday Nov-15 12:00 - = 14:00KST

Room: Studio 7, on = 6th floor.

Some = questions for this meeting:

- how = can we improve the quality of the use case document?

- have the inter-domain use cases been properly = included in the use case draft?

- = have the use cases from the telemetry draft been sufficiently included = in the use case draft?

 

2. Design = Team meeting: Protocol discussion

Thursday Nov-17 12:00 - = 14:00KST

Room: Studio 7, on = 6th floor.

Some = questions for this meeting:

- = protocols

- what messages are = exchanged, contents of messages

- = relationship with info-model draft

- = converging and getting to protocol WG draft

 

Best = regards,

 

Tobias & Roman

(DOTS WG chairs)

 

 

Ps.: and a = reminder: our DOTS WG meeting will be on Friday morning, 9:30am (Korean = time)

 

 

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Danyliw" , dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 05:53:46 -0000 On 14 Nov 2016, at 11:38, Tobias Gondrom wrote: > Tuesday Nov-15 12:00 - 14:00KST I can't make this meeting time - can we do it after the afternoon session, about 1900? Thanks! ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Sun Nov 13 22:05:50 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D1F512944D for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 22:05:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MISSING_MIMEOLE=1.899, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=tobias.gondrom@gondrom.org header.d=gondrom.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ucvzx-xInyzm for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 22:05:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from gondrom.org (www.gondrom.org [5.35.241.16]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE00612969B for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 22:05:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from seraph (dhcp-814a.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.129.74]) by gondrom.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7891162E64; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 07:05:37 +0100 (CET) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=gondrom.org; b=S365QfNFMVYWKIUbrKKJXYJK+SQr9xwGszNUPkE311x/OcvqlyICjMnx8oyaVL/BWeZAkwYrpSJ2CL/5QjPh8ES+D9eU431/cqxDnMPcFMMBy9V2CfkvAqzvnB5xX1dqgXrdoPa09+3jxGTzqYlLCXvapauaZ4lzJEFwo8AFI3c=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language:Importance; From: "Tobias Gondrom" To: "'Roland Dobbins'" , Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 14:05:23 +0800 Message-ID: <05e801d23e3d$1931d8b0$4b958a10$@gondrom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AdI+PRLfBoPUxSomQNyI7wGGAh48+Q== Content-Language: en-us Importance: High Archived-At: Cc: "'Roman D. Danyliw'" Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor - change to Tue 19:00? X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 06:05:48 -0000 Hi Roland, hi all, Thanks for the feedback. Yes, we could also do the design team meeting on Tuesday after the afternoon session at 19:00. @all design team interested: Please confirm that Tuesday Nov-15 at 19:00 would be ok for you? (if I receive no objections until tonight midnight KST, we will move this to tomorrow evening. If we get other conflicts with the evening slot (19:00-20:30), we will keep it at lunch time.) Btw. design team meetings are open to all interested. We hope the main authors for documents that touch use cases will attend, but it is also open to all interested. Cheers and see you soon. Safe travels, Tobias -----Original Message----- From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 13:53 To: Tobias Gondrom Cc: Roman D. Danyliw ; dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor On 14 Nov 2016, at 11:38, Tobias Gondrom wrote: > Tuesday Nov-15 12:00 - 14:00KST I can't make this meeting time - can we do it after the afternoon session, about 1900? Thanks! ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins _______________________________________________ Dots mailing list Dots@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Sun Nov 13 22:07:05 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D207A129674 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 22:07:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.398 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aKY6Q0Pzx39h for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 22:07:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.verisign.com (mail1.verisign.com [72.13.63.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4165C1294DC for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 22:07:02 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.31,488,1473120000"; d="scan'208";a="556353" IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?9a23=3AQksYkBBJNZ+XCUxUAfP2UyQJP3N1i/DPJgcQr6Af?= =?us-ascii?q?oPdwSP37rsiwAkXT6L1XgUPTWs2DsrQf2rGQ6/GrCTBIyK3CmUhKSIZLWR4BhJ?= =?us-ascii?q?detC0bK+nBN3fGKuX3ZTcxBsVIWQwt1Xi6NU9IBJS2PAWK8TW94jEIBxrwKxd+?= =?us-ascii?q?KPjrFY7OlcS30P2594HObwlSijewZb1/IA+qoQjVucUbgoRvIbstxxXUpXdFZ/?= =?us-ascii?q?5Yzn5yK1KJmBb86Maw/Jp9/ClVpvks6c1OX7jkcqohVbBXAygoPG4z5M3wqBnM?= =?us-ascii?q?VhCP6WcGUmUXiRVHHQ7I5wznU5jrsyv6su192DSGPcDzULs5Vyiu47ttRRT1ky?= =?us-ascii?q?oMKSI3/3/LhcxxlKJboQyupxpjw47PfYqZMONycr7Bcd8GQGZMWNtaWS5cDYOm?= =?us-ascii?q?d4YBD/QPM/tEr4fzpFUOoxmxCgetBOzzxTFHiWT73bEh3OQkDQ3KwBYtEtAIvX?= =?us-ascii?q?/JrNv1LqASUeWtwaXG0zvMcelZ2Tjg6IfWahwqvOmCXbNzccbf1EIiEAXFjkmO?= =?us-ascii?q?poP/MDOVy/oCvnOF7+V+T+KvinUnqwB+ojip3Msjlo7JhocMx13C6C53zoE1Jd?= =?us-ascii?q?iiR056Z96pCJpQuD+GN4t4WM8iRHtouCk8x7YbupC7ZDAHxIk7yxLFdvCKcYaF?= =?us-ascii?q?7gj+WOuRLzp0nmxpdb2wihqq7ESs1vfwWtS23VtEtCZJj9nBum4X2xHc7MWMV+?= =?us-ascii?q?Fz8V272TmV0gDe8uREIUcpmqXFM5Mh2bswloYLsUTEAy/2hF36jK+IeUUg/eil?= =?us-ascii?q?8//oYq/gppOBM491hQT+Pb4vmsy7BuQ4LxQOU3SG9eimyr3s41f5QLRRjv03na?= =?us-ascii?q?nZtorWKtgcpq68GwNV04Aj5AijDzq+zdgUgWMLIE9HdR+JlYTlJlHDLf7iAfuh?= =?us-ascii?q?jFmhny9nx/XcMb3gBpXNIGLDkLDkfbtl7U5c1BQ8wspQ55JJFL4MO+zzVVHrtN?= =?us-ascii?q?zZFR85MgO0w+D9BNph0YMeXHqDArWFP6PKrV+I+uUvLvGWZIAIpTnwMOQq6OD0?= =?us-ascii?q?jX8lg1MderOp3ZQPYnCiAvtmO1mZYWbrgtoZDGgKuRY+TPfxhV2DTzFTe3iyU7?= =?us-ascii?q?g75jEhB4KsFZ3DSZy1gLydwCe7GYVbZnpbBVCLCnjnbISEW/EXaC+JOMBhiCcL?= =?us-ascii?q?Vb+7S4M70xGhqhP6waJ9LuXI4i0YqY7j1N9t6u3PkhE97j10AN6G022XQGF0mW?= =?us-ascii?q?UISCIs3KB4pExw0ViD0a9+g/NFD9xT4PZJXh09NZ7GwOwpQ+z1Dz7GdNaAUx6J?= =?us-ascii?q?RdOqGzY0BoYtxNUPal07FNKkggrE2gKlBLkZjbuOQpsu/fSYlzK+HcF5wnDKnI?= =?us-ascii?q?UmhVMnRNAAfyXynKJ4/QLSAZXhml+TkLzsc6kAimqFvmuE0XGmvUxEXkh3S6qP?= =?us-ascii?q?FSQTYVfNhdX0+k2ESKWhX+cJKAxEnIS+J6JFd9CtxXNHR72rbNLCbmu+hmqYGx?= =?us-ascii?q?uSx6iNY4yscGIYinaOQHMYmhweqC7VfTM1AT2s9ieHVGRj?= X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2FYAQCYUylY//SZrQpdGgEBAQECAQEBAQgBAQEBFQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?CAQEBAQgBAQEBgwYBAQEBAXeBAAeNN5cJlGCBewwdC4V7AhqCMRQBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQKBB4IzGgEJIhcQAQEBAQEBTwI+LAEBAQECAQEBASAROgsMBAIBCA0EBAE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAwIfBAMCAgIlCxQBCAgBAQQBDQWIWRaubYIpi0EBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEXBYEJhTSBfIJdgT2DIoJtLYIwAQSIUIwJhWgBkkuEdok7jUSECh6BOhy?= =?us-ascii?q?DLieBRXKGNoEMAQEB?= Received: from BRN1WNEXCHM01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com (brn1wnexchm01 [10.173.152.255]) by brn1lxmailout01.verisign.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id uAE670Su022311 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 14 Nov 2016 01:07:01 -0500 Received: from BRN1WNEXMBX01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([::1]) by BRN1WNEXCHM01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 01:06:58 -0500 From: "Teague, Nik" To: Tobias Gondrom , "'Roland Dobbins'" , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor - change to Tue 19:00? Thread-Index: AdI+PRLfBoPUxSomQNyI7wGGAh48+QAdZR4A Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 06:06:58 +0000 Message-ID: <88715B84-F820-4C3E-B204-D6C49B0C53DA@verisign.com> References: <05e801d23e3d$1931d8b0$4b958a10$@gondrom.org> In-Reply-To: <05e801d23e3d$1931d8b0$4b958a10$@gondrom.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 x-originating-ip: [10.173.152.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "'Roman D. Danyliw'" Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor - change to Tue 19:00? X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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Sun, 13 Nov 2016 23:01:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mglt.ietf@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.32.10 with HTTP; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 23:01:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.107.32.10 with HTTP; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 23:01:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <05e801d23e3d$1931d8b0$4b958a10$@gondrom.org> References: <05e801d23e3d$1931d8b0$4b958a10$@gondrom.org> From: Daniel Migault Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 02:01:01 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: JFuS9RgLewIySty6p8JskSotlLA Message-ID: To: Tobias Gondrom Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fc0ee1e6bd005413d673d Archived-At: Cc: rdobbins@arbor.net, "Roman D. Danyliw" , dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor - change to Tue 19:00? X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 07:01:05 -0000 --001a113fc0ee1e6bd005413d673d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I might not be able to attend the full evening session but that should not prevent it to happen. Yours Daniel On Nov 14, 2016 3:05 PM, "Tobias Gondrom" wrote: > Hi Roland, hi all, > > Thanks for the feedback. > Yes, we could also do the design team meeting on Tuesday after the > afternoon > session at 19:00. > > @all design team interested: > Please confirm that Tuesday Nov-15 at 19:00 would be ok for you? > (if I receive no objections until tonight midnight KST, we will move this > to > tomorrow evening. > If we get other conflicts with the evening slot (19:00-20:30), we will keep > it at lunch time.) > > Btw. design team meetings are open to all interested. We hope the main > authors for documents that touch use cases will attend, but it is also open > to all interested. > > Cheers and see you soon. > > Safe travels, Tobias > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins > Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 13:53 > To: Tobias Gondrom > Cc: Roman D. Danyliw ; dots@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17 > at 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor > > On 14 Nov 2016, at 11:38, Tobias Gondrom wrote: > > > Tuesday Nov-15 12:00 - 14:00KST > > I can't make this meeting time - can we do it after the afternoon session, > about 1900? > > Thanks! > > ----------------------------------- > Roland Dobbins > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > --001a113fc0ee1e6bd005413d673d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I might not be able to attend the full evening session but t= hat should not prevent it to happen.

Yours
Daniel


On Nov 14, 2016 3= :05 PM, "Tobias Gondrom" <tobias.gondrom@gondrom.org> wrote:
Hi Roland, hi all,

Thanks for the feedback.
Yes, we could also do the design team meeting on Tuesday after the afternoo= n
session at 19:00.

@all design team interested:
Please confirm that Tuesday Nov-15 at 19:00 would be ok for you?
(if I receive no objections until tonight midnight KST, we will move this t= o
tomorrow evening.
If we get other conflicts with the evening slot (19:00-20:30), we will keep=
it at lunch time.)

Btw. design team meetings are open to all interested. We hope the main
authors for documents that touch use cases will attend, but it is also open=
to all interested.

Cheers and see you soon.

Safe travels, Tobias


-----Original Message-----
From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ie= tf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 13:53
To: Tobias Gondrom <tobias= .gondrom@gondrom.org>
Cc: Roman D. Danyliw <rdd@cert.org&g= t;; dots@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17<= br> at 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor

On 14 Nov 2016, at 11:38, Tobias Gondrom wrote:

> Tuesday Nov-15 12:00 - 14:00KST

I can't make this meeting time - can we do it after the afternoon sessi= on,
about 1900?

Thanks!

-----------------------------------
Roland Dobbins <rdobbins@arbor.net= >

_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots

_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
--001a113fc0ee1e6bd005413d673d-- From nobody Sun Nov 13 23:04:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6018D129631 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 23:04:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jUl7EbEpKmU0 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 23:04:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [50.253.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 007501295AC for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 23:04:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8615E62235; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 02:04:13 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id O0TVCX03L784; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 02:03:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from lx120e.htt-consult.com (dhcp-8dd3.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.141.211]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1755E6214A; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 02:03:53 -0500 (EST) To: Tobias Gondrom , 'Roland Dobbins' , dots@ietf.org References: <05e801d23e3d$1931d8b0$4b958a10$@gondrom.org> From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 16:03:48 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <05e801d23e3d$1931d8b0$4b958a10$@gondrom.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "'Roman D. Danyliw'" Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor - change to Tue 19:00? X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 07:04:19 -0000 Grumble. I suspect there is something else. I definitely will have to step out 8:30 - 9 for a conference call. Bob On 11/14/2016 03:05 PM, Tobias Gondrom wrote: > Hi Roland, hi all, > > Thanks for the feedback. > Yes, we could also do the design team meeting on Tuesday after the afternoon > session at 19:00. > > @all design team interested: > Please confirm that Tuesday Nov-15 at 19:00 would be ok for you? > (if I receive no objections until tonight midnight KST, we will move this to > tomorrow evening. > If we get other conflicts with the evening slot (19:00-20:30), we will keep > it at lunch time.) > > Btw. design team meetings are open to all interested. We hope the main > authors for documents that touch use cases will attend, but it is also open > to all interested. > > Cheers and see you soon. > > Safe travels, Tobias > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins > Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 13:53 > To: Tobias Gondrom > Cc: Roman D. Danyliw ; dots@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17 > at 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor > > On 14 Nov 2016, at 11:38, Tobias Gondrom wrote: > >> Tuesday Nov-15 12:00 - 14:00KST > I can't make this meeting time - can we do it after the afternoon session, > about 1900? > > Thanks! > > ----------------------------------- > Roland Dobbins > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > From nobody Sun Nov 13 23:10:49 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E66129459 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 23:10:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yfj16ihX52Mm for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 23:10:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from guri.nttv6.jp (guri.nttv6.jp [115.69.231.228]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF781129554 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 23:10:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from z.nttv6.jp (z.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:6::f]) by guri.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id DE35E4E961; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 16:10:44 +0900 (JST) Received: from dhcp-8e3b.meeting.ietf.org (fujiko.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:136::141]) by z.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 73D113AC97; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 16:10:44 +0900 (JST) To: Tobias Gondrom , 'Roland Dobbins' , dots@ietf.org References: <05e801d23e3d$1931d8b0$4b958a10$@gondrom.org> From: kaname nishizuka Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 16:10:43 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <05e801d23e3d$1931d8b0$4b958a10$@gondrom.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "'Roman D. Danyliw'" Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor - change to Tue 19:00? X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 07:10:47 -0000 both schedule (12:00- and 19:00-) are OK for me. thank you, kaname nishizuka On 2016/11/14 15:05, Tobias Gondrom wrote: > Hi Roland, hi all, > > Thanks for the feedback. > Yes, we could also do the design team meeting on Tuesday after the afternoon > session at 19:00. > > @all design team interested: > Please confirm that Tuesday Nov-15 at 19:00 would be ok for you? > (if I receive no objections until tonight midnight KST, we will move this to > tomorrow evening. > If we get other conflicts with the evening slot (19:00-20:30), we will keep > it at lunch time.) > > Btw. design team meetings are open to all interested. We hope the main > authors for documents that touch use cases will attend, but it is also open > to all interested. > > Cheers and see you soon. > > Safe travels, Tobias > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins > Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 13:53 > To: Tobias Gondrom > Cc: Roman D. Danyliw ; dots@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17 > at 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor > > On 14 Nov 2016, at 11:38, Tobias Gondrom wrote: > >> Tuesday Nov-15 12:00 - 14:00KST > I can't make this meeting time - can we do it after the afternoon session, > about 1900? > > Thanks! > > ----------------------------------- > Roland Dobbins > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Sun Nov 13 23:14:21 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1529129459 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 23:14:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.398 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xPJtlgqNLwpv for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 23:14:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from guri.nttv6.jp (guri.nttv6.jp [115.69.231.228]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7159F1288B8 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 23:14:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from z.nttv6.jp (z.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:6::f]) by guri.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id CC1324E960; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 16:09:12 +0900 (JST) Received: from dhcp-8e3b.meeting.ietf.org (fujiko.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:136::141]) by z.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 558163AC97; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 16:09:12 +0900 (JST) To: Tobias Gondrom , dots@ietf.org References: <054b01d23e31$05f99cd0$11ecd670$@gondrom.org> From: kaname nishizuka Message-ID: <3d147ef1-f86f-816f-e3bf-559c8133418f@nttv6.jp> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 16:09:11 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <054b01d23e31$05f99cd0$11ecd670$@gondrom.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A4E9B5453F82D7ABA7CF8F53" Archived-At: Cc: "'Roman D. Danyliw'" Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 07:14:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A4E9B5453F82D7ABA7CF8F53 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 2. Design Team meeting: Protocol discussion > Thursday Nov-17 12:00 - 14:00KST Morning session ends at 12:10 on Thursday. Moving start time 10 minutes later could help us a lot. thank you, kaname nishizuka On 2016/11/14 13:38, Tobias Gondrom wrote: > > Dear DOTS team, > > Following our good experience at the last meeting, we would like to propose also for this meeting two design team meeting slots. > > As at the last meeting lunch meetings seemed to have had the least conflicts, we suggest to continue with that. > > We would propose the following two slots and arranged a room for that. > > If these slots do not work or have serious conflicts, please let us know. > > *1. Design Team meeting: Use cases* > > *Tuesday Nov-15 12:00 - 14:00KST* > > *Room: Studio 7, on 6^th floor. * > > Some questions for this meeting: > > - how can we improve the quality of the use case document? > > - have the inter-domain use cases been properly included in the use case draft? > > - have the use cases from the telemetry draft been sufficiently included in the use case draft? > > *2. Design Team meeting: Protocol discussion* > > *Thursday Nov-17 12:00 - 14:00KST* > > *Room: Studio 7, on 6^th floor. * > > Some questions for this meeting: > > - protocols > > - what messages are exchanged, contents of messages > > - relationship with info-model draft > > - converging and getting to protocol WG draft > > Best regards, > > Tobias & Roman > > (DOTS WG chairs) > > Ps.: and a reminder: our DOTS WG meeting will be on Friday morning, 9:30am (Korean time) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots --------------A4E9B5453F82D7ABA7CF8F53 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

> 2. Design Team meeting: Protocol discussion
> Thursday Nov-17 12:00 - 14:00KST

Morning session ends at 12:10 on Thursday.
Moving start time 10 minutes later could help us a lot.

thank you,
kaname nishizuka




On 2016/11/14 13:38, Tobias Gondrom wrote:

Dear DOTS team,

 

Following our good experience at the last meeting, we would like to propose also for this meeting two design team meeting slots.

As at the last meeting lunch meetings seemed to have had the least conflicts, we suggest to continue with that.

 

We would propose the following two slots and arranged a room for that.

If these slots do not work or have serious conflicts, please let us know.

 

1. Design Team meeting: Use cases

Tuesday Nov-15 12:00 - 14:00KST

Room: Studio 7, on 6th floor.

Some questions for this meeting:

- how can we improve the quality of the use case document?

- have the inter-domain use cases been properly included in the use case draft?

- have the use cases from the telemetry draft been sufficiently included in the use case draft?

 

2. Design Team meeting: Protocol discussion

Thursday Nov-17 12:00 - 14:00KST

Room: Studio 7, on 6th floor.

Some questions for this meeting:

- protocols

- what messages are exchanged, contents of messages

- relationship with info-model draft

- converging and getting to protocol WG draft

 

Best regards,

 

Tobias & Roman

(DOTS WG chairs)

 

 

Ps.: and a reminder: our DOTS WG meeting will be on Friday morning, 9:30am (Korean time)

 

 



_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots

--------------A4E9B5453F82D7ABA7CF8F53-- From nobody Mon Nov 14 00:14:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72E1A1293E3 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 00:14:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YPUACJwG4ykY for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 00:14:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout1.radware.com (mailout1.radwarecloud.com [192.115.180.130]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8174212978C for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 00:14:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from ILMB1.corp.radware.com ([169.254.1.134]) by ILCAS2.corp.radware.com ([176.200.120.122]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 10:14:24 +0200 From: Ehud Doron To: "Roman D. Danyliw" , "tireddy@cisco.com" , "fandreas@cisco.com" , "Xialiang (Frank)" , kaname nishizuka Thread-Topic: Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 Thread-Index: AdI7wYm473OfPCFJSFe1ONIXj1qG/gCjJvCA Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 08:14:23 +0000 Message-ID: References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B8@marathon> In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B8@marathon> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [176.200.121.202] x-tm-as-product-ver: SMEX-11.0.0.4179-8.000.1202-22698.005 x-tm-as-result: No--50.631900-0.000000-31 x-tm-as-user-approved-sender: Yes x-tm-as-user-blocked-sender: No Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E58182C4A35A8E498E553AD3D33FA00101170E0067ILMB1corpradw_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "dots@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Dots] Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 08:14:29 -0000 --_000_E58182C4A35A8E498E553AD3D33FA00101170E0067ILMB1corpradw_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Roman Thanks a lot for your questions. Before getting in to each of your question, I would like to explain the goa= l and objectives of our work. We want to define and standardize all the pieces of information needed by D= OTS Server mitigation environment for optimal mitigation. This DOTS Telemet= ry need to be optionally signaled as part of "DOTS Client asks Server for h= elp" various signaling process. We want to bring the DOTS Telemetry various needs and meanings to be discus= sed and agreed in the DOTS WG. After we will all get to the agreement on the various attributes needed, we= believe the other DOTS "core" docs need to somehow adopt them and update a= ccordingly. Essentially we would like to build a "Telemetry" extension standard to the = basic DOTS protocol, and this document would define that. Keeping the telem= etry specification in a separate draft is good approach for future extensib= ility. We expect that the other DOTS draft will benefit this draft by adopting the= approaches it suggests to enrich the DOTS signaling. For this goal, we as = the DOTS WG first need to better understand (and agree in the group) what w= e see as baseline mandatory capabilities and what we see as extensions. We = are just at the early stages of this work, the current draft defines an ini= tial set of attributes and obviously more discussions in the WG are needed = to define the set of attribute that are the "DOTS Telemetry", and to what e= xtend the other DOTS draft should benefit the DOTS Telemetry. To your questions: (1) Is there an undocumented telemetry use case that needs to be added to t= he use case WG document? Section 4.0 suggests that. Yes. We want to DOTS use cases, the existing and maybe new others, to = be enriched with Telemetry related items. It is important to emphasize "whe= n and where" DOTS Telemetry can , or should, be signaled such that the miti= gation gained for the use case is far better. We want also the other docs (= requirements, architecture, protocols, data model and so on) to take the si= milar approaches. (2) Is there another protocol draft coming that will incorporate the attrib= utes enumerated in Section 3? Or are the existing protocol drafts supposed= to adopted these? As said, the existing protocol drafts supposed to adopt DOT Telemetry= approaches by incorporating the attributes enumerated in this draft. (3) What is the relationship you see between this draft and draft-andreasen= -dots-info-data-model-01 (especially given all the authors on the latter ar= e in the former as well)? The DOTS Telemetry draft purpose is to define the Telemetry attribute= s needed. The actual data model objects needed to signal these attributes a= re expected to be define in the info-data model doc. The info-data model dr= aft will define an extension mechanism that supports adding telemetry. To w= hat extent it will also define telemetry is a more open question for the gr= oup. Best wishes, Ehud Doron | Senior Architect, Radware CTO office | M: +972-54-7575503 | T= : +972-72-3917120 From: Roman D. Danyliw [mailto:rdd@cert.org] Sent: Friday, November 11, 2016 6:30 AM To: Ehud Doron ; tireddy@cisco.com; fandreas@cisco.com; = Xialiang (Frank) ; kaname nishizuka Cc: dots@ietf.org Subject: Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 Hello Ehud, Tiru, Flemming, Frank and Kaname! Thanks for producing and submitting this draft! Without getting into the details, what did you have in mind with this draft= . Specifically: (1) Is there an undocumented telemetry use case that needs to be added to t= he use case WG document? Section 4.0 suggests that. (2) Is there another protocol draft coming that will incorporate the attrib= utes enumerated in Section 3? Or are the existing protocol drafts supposed= to adopted these? (3) What is the relationship you see between this draft and draft-andreasen= -dots-info-data-model-01 (especially given all the authors on the latter ar= e in the former as well)? Thanks, Roman --_000_E58182C4A35A8E498E553AD3D33FA00101170E0067ILMB1corpradw_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Roman <= /o:p>

 

Thanks a lot for your = questions.

 

Before getting in to e= ach of your question, I would like to explain the goal and objectives of ou= r work.

 

We want to define a= nd standardize all the pieces of information needed by DOTS Server miti= gation environment for optimal mitigation. This DOTS Telemetry need to be o= ptionally signaled as part of “DOTS Client asks Server for help” various signaling process.<= /o:p>

 

We want to bring the D= OTS Telemetry various needs and meanings to be discussed and agreed in the = DOTS WG.

 

After we will all get = to the agreement on the various attributes needed, we believe the other DOT= S “core” docs need to somehow adopt them and update accordingly= .

 

Essentially we would l= ike to build a "Telemetry" extension standard to the basic DOTS p= rotocol, and this document would define that. Keeping the telemetry specifi= cation in a separate draft is good approach for future extensibility.

 

We expect that the oth= er DOTS draft will benefit this draft by adopting the approaches it suggest= s to enrich the DOTS signaling. For this goal, we as the DOTS WG first need= to better understand (and agree in the group) what we see as baseline mandatory capabilities and what we see = as extensions. We are just at the early stages of this work, the current dr= aft defines an initial set of attributes and obviously more discussions in = the WG are needed to define the set of attribute that are the “DOTS Telemetry”, and to what ex= tend the other DOTS draft should benefit the DOTS Telemetry.  <= o:p>

 

To your questions:

 

(1) Is there an undocu= mented telemetry use case that needs to be added to the use case WG documen= t?  Section 4.0 suggests that.

   &nbs= p; Yes. We want to DOTS use cases, the existing and maybe new others, = to be enriched with Telemetry related items. It is important to emphasize “when and where” DOTS Telemetry can , or should, be sign= aled such that the mitigation gained for the use case is far better. We wan= t also the other docs (requirements, architecture, protocols, data model an= d so on) to take the similar approaches.

 

(2) Is there another p= rotocol draft coming that will incorporate the attributes enumerated in Sec= tion 3?  Or are the existing protocol drafts supposed to adopted these= ?

   &nbs= p;  As said, the existing protocol drafts supposed to adopt DOT Teleme= try approaches by incorporating the attributes enumerated in this draft.

 

(3) What is the relati= onship you see between this draft and draft-andreasen-dots-info-data-model-= 01 (especially given all the authors on the latter are in the former as wel= l)?

   &nbs= p;  The DOTS Telemetry draft purpose is to define the Telemetry attributes needed. The actual data model object= s needed to signal these attributes are expected to be define in the info-d= ata model doc. The info-data model draft will define an extension mechanism= that supports adding telemetry. To what extent it will also define telemetry is a more open question for t= he group.

 

  

Best wishes,

Ehud Doron <= span dir=3D"RTL">|  Senior Architect, Radware CTO office | M: +972-54-7575503 | T: +972-72-3917120

 

 

From: Roman D. Danyliw [mailto:rdd@cert.org] =
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2016 6:30 AM
To: Ehud Doron <EhudD@Radware.com>; tireddy@cisco.com; fandrea= s@cisco.com; Xialiang (Frank) <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>; kaname nis= hizuka <kaname@nttv6.jp>
Cc: dots@ietf.org
Subject: Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00

 

Hello Ehud, Tiru, Flemming, Frank and Kaname!

 

Thanks for producing and submitting this draft!=

 

Without getting into the details, what did you have = in mind with this draft.  Specifically:

 

(1) Is there an undocumented telemetry use case that= needs to be added to the use case WG document?  Section 4.0 suggests = that.

 

(2) Is there another protocol draft coming that will= incorporate the attributes enumerated in Section 3?  Or are the exist= ing protocol drafts supposed to adopted these?

 

(3) What is the relationship you see between this dr= aft and draft-andreasen-dots-info-data-model-01 (especially given all the a= uthors on the latter are in the former as well)?

 

Thanks,

Roman

 

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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 09:03:50 -0000 On 14 Nov 2016, at 15:14, Ehud Doron wrote: > Essentially we would like to build a "Telemetry" extension standard to > the basic DOTS protocol, and this document would define that. This may make sense at some future date; initially, since we're dealing with devices/software/systems which have radically different paradigms, capabilities, and 'worldviews', the initial focus of DOTS should be on signaling and status only, as the ins are universal functions which are readily understood by most any type of node/service/application which could participate in DOTS. > Keeping the telemetry specification in a separate draft is good > approach for future extensibility. > For this goal, we as the DOTS WG first need to better understand (and > agree in the group) what we see as baseline mandatory capabilities > other DOTS draft should benefit the DOTS Telemetry. We've already held extensive discussions on this topic; initially, we need a minimum viable capability to allow signaling and status information to be passed between DOTS participants. > (1) Is there an undocumented telemetry use case that needs to be added > to the use case WG document? Section 4.0 suggests that. > Yes. We want to DOTS use cases, the existing and maybe new > others, to be enriched with Telemetry related items. This can come at a later state, if the group believes it to be important. It's sub-optimal to duplicate the work done on IPFIX, I2NSF, I2RS, et. al. in DOTS. By leaving mitigation technique specifics and telemetry specifics to one side, we can concentrate on signaling and status, which is all that's actually required for successful inter- and intra-domain DOTS-enabled DDoS mitigation assistance and provisioning. It's important to get to an initial operating capability with the requisite baseline capability before we expand the scope of DOTS itself, IMHO. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Mon Nov 14 13:37:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 839CE1293FF for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 13:36:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yq8QcXj8U2Cy for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 13:36:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from bgl-iport-2.cisco.com (bgl-iport-2.cisco.com [72.163.197.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6289129632 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 13:36:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=18360; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1479159410; x=1480369010; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=QA9FKgouqE3RfLS58j+IKwWmoUN+1yF82fQJTsF6Bb0=; b=QuYqQ7jEC4wmLPvxwHDXzLQQQf+LlseyjvSkM0zpNQ0+EuFqogTCj9bG rgjBYVecIbsV8TeeAf/fLtiM7XfIeH86tsxcJqvJyVyDvgg01ZQmwx3sf Begqi/jvxl3tdAkD4klPh4qlk3NCpgxmG0K9rLnyPEIE/unpEuw7RrXeQ E=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.31,640,1473120000"; d="scan'208,217"; a="65184310" Received: from vla196-nat.cisco.com (HELO bgl-core-3.cisco.com) ([72.163.197.24]) by bgl-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 14 Nov 2016 21:36:46 +0000 Received: from [10.70.234.11] ([10.70.234.11]) by bgl-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id uAELaias018286; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 21:36:44 GMT To: Ehud Doron , "Roman D. Danyliw" , "tireddy@cisco.com" , "Xialiang (Frank)" , kaname nishizuka References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B8@marathon> From: Flemming Andreasen Message-ID: <9ca15a6d-b617-e058-0828-20785c5cf26e@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 16:36:44 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------FE9189666C875281DF9CE2F1" Archived-At: Cc: "dots@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Dots] Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 21:36:59 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FE9189666C875281DF9CE2F1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/14/16 3:14 AM, Ehud Doron wrote: > > Hi Roman > > Thanks a lot for your questions. > > Before getting in to each of your question, I would like to explain > the goal and objectives of our work. > > We want to *define and standardize* all the pieces of information > needed by DOTS Server mitigation environment for optimal mitigation. > This DOTS Telemetry need to be optionally signaled as part of “DOTS > Client asks Server for help” various signaling process. > > We want to bring the DOTS Telemetry various needs and meanings to be > discussed and agreed in the DOTS WG. > > After we will all get to the agreement on the various attributes > needed, we believe the other DOTS “core” docs need to somehow adopt > them and update accordingly. > > Essentially we would like to build a "Telemetry" extension standard to > the basic DOTS protocol, and this document would define that. Keeping > the telemetry specification in a separate draft is good approach for > future extensibility. > > We expect that the other DOTS draft will benefit this draft by > adopting the approaches it suggests to enrich the DOTS signaling. For > this goal, we as the DOTS WG first need to better understand (and > agree in the group) what we see as baseline mandatory capabilities and > what we see as extensions. We are just at the early stages of this > work, the current draft defines an initial set of attributes and > obviously more discussions in the WG are needed to define the set of > attribute that are the “DOTS Telemetry”, and to what extend the other > DOTS draft should benefit the DOTS Telemetry. > > To your questions: > > (1) Is there an undocumented telemetry use case that needs to be added > to the use case WG document? Section 4.0 suggests that. > > Yes. We want to DOTS use cases, the existing and maybe new > others, to be enriched with Telemetry related items. It is important > to emphasize *“when and where”* DOTS Telemetry can , or should, be > signaled such that the mitigation gained for the use case is far > better. We want also the other docs (requirements, architecture, > protocols, data model and so on) to take the similar approaches. > > (2) Is there another protocol draft coming that will incorporate the > attributes enumerated in Section 3? Or are the existing protocol > drafts supposed to adopted these? > > As said, the existing protocol drafts supposed to adopt DOT > Telemetry approaches by incorporating the attributes enumerated in > this draft. > > (3) What is the relationship you see between this draft and > draft-andreasen-dots-info-data-model-01 (especially given all the > authors on the latter are in the former as well)? > > The DOTS Telemetry draft purpose is to *define* the Telemetry > attributes needed. The actual data model objects needed to signal > these attributes are expected to be define in the info-data model doc. > The info-data model draft will define an extension mechanism that > supports adding telemetry. To what extent it will also define > telemetry is a more open question for the group. > To clarify my view on 2) and 3), I think telemetry attributes (with the possible exception of a small baseline set) should be defined as extensions in separate documents, and that applies to the info-data model as well as the protocol. I do think the info-data model as well as the protocol should be explicitly defined to accommodate this by including an extension model that supports this in a well-defined and interoperable manner (modular approach). Thanks -- Flemming > Best wishes, > > *Ehud Doron *| Senior Architect, *Radware* CTO office | > *M:*+972-54-7575503 | *T:* +972-72-3917120 > > *From:* Roman D. Danyliw [mailto:rdd@cert.org] > *Sent:* Friday, November 11, 2016 6:30 AM > *To:* Ehud Doron ; tireddy@cisco.com; > fandreas@cisco.com; Xialiang (Frank) ; > kaname nishizuka > *Cc:* dots@ietf.org > *Subject:* Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 > > Hello Ehud, Tiru, Flemming, Frank and Kaname! > > Thanks for producing and submitting this draft! > > Without getting into the details, what did you have in mind with this > draft. Specifically: > > (1) Is there an undocumented telemetry use case that needs to be added > to the use case WG document? Section 4.0 suggests that. > > (2) Is there another protocol draft coming that will incorporate the > attributes enumerated in Section 3? Or are the existing protocol > drafts supposed to adopted these? > > (3) What is the relationship you see between this draft and > draft-andreasen-dots-info-data-model-01 (especially given all the > authors on the latter are in the former as well)? > > Thanks, > > Roman > --------------FE9189666C875281DF9CE2F1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 11/14/16 3:14 AM, Ehud Doron wrote:

Hi Roman

 

Thanks a lot for your questions.

 

Before getting in to each of your question, I would like to explain the goal and objectives of our work.

 

We want to define and standardize all the pieces of information needed by DOTS Server mitigation environment for optimal mitigation. This DOTS Telemetry need to be optionally signaled as part of “DOTS Client asks Server for help” various signaling process.

 

We want to bring the DOTS Telemetry various needs and meanings to be discussed and agreed in the DOTS WG.

 

After we will all get to the agreement on the various attributes needed, we believe the other DOTS “core” docs need to somehow adopt them and update accordingly.

 

Essentially we would like to build a "Telemetry" extension standard to the basic DOTS protocol, and this document would define that. Keeping the telemetry specification in a separate draft is good approach for future extensibility.

 

We expect that the other DOTS draft will benefit this draft by adopting the approaches it suggests to enrich the DOTS signaling. For this goal, we as the DOTS WG first need to better understand (and agree in the group) what we see as baseline mandatory capabilities and what we see as extensions. We are just at the early stages of this work, the current draft defines an initial set of attributes and obviously more discussions in the WG are needed to define the set of attribute that are the “DOTS Telemetry”, and to what extend the other DOTS draft should benefit the DOTS Telemetry.  

 

To your questions:

 

(1) Is there an undocumented telemetry use case that needs to be added to the use case WG document?  Section 4.0 suggests that.

     Yes. We want to DOTS use cases, the existing and maybe new others, to be enriched with Telemetry related items. It is important to emphasize “when and where” DOTS Telemetry can , or should, be signaled such that the mitigation gained for the use case is far better. We want also the other docs (requirements, architecture, protocols, data model and so on) to take the similar approaches.

 

(2) Is there another protocol draft coming that will incorporate the attributes enumerated in Section 3?  Or are the existing protocol drafts supposed to adopted these?

      As said, the existing protocol drafts supposed to adopt DOT Telemetry approaches by incorporating the attributes enumerated in this draft.

 

(3) What is the relationship you see between this draft and draft-andreasen-dots-info-data-model-01 (especially given all the authors on the latter are in the former as well)?

      The DOTS Telemetry draft purpose is to define the Telemetry attributes needed. The actual data model objects needed to signal these attributes are expected to be define in the info-data model doc. The info-data model draft will define an extension mechanism that supports adding telemetry. To what extent it will also define telemetry is a more open question for the group.

 

To clarify my view on 2) and 3), I think telemetry attributes (with the possible exception of a small baseline set) should be defined as extensions in separate documents, and that applies to the info-data model as well as the protocol. I do think the info-data model as well as the protocol should be explicitly defined to accommodate this by including an extension model that supports this in a well-defined and interoperable manner (modular approach).

Thanks

-- Flemming

  

Best wishes,

Ehud Doron |  Senior Architect, Radware CTO office | M: +972-54-7575503 | T: +972-72-3917120

 

 

From: Roman D. Danyliw [mailto:rdd@cert.org]
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2016 6:30 AM
To: Ehud Doron <EhudD@Radware.com>; tireddy@cisco.com; fandreas@cisco.com; Xialiang (Frank) <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>; kaname nishizuka <kaname@nttv6.jp>
Cc: dots@ietf.org
Subject: Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00

 

Hello Ehud, Tiru, Flemming, Frank and Kaname!

 

Thanks for producing and submitting this draft!

 

Without getting into the details, what did you have in mind with this draft.  Specifically:

 

(1) Is there an undocumented telemetry use case that needs to be added to the use case WG document?  Section 4.0 suggests that.

 

(2) Is there another protocol draft coming that will incorporate the attributes enumerated in Section 3?  Or are the existing protocol drafts supposed to adopted these?

 

(3) What is the relationship you see between this draft and draft-andreasen-dots-info-data-model-01 (especially given all the authors on the latter are in the former as well)?

 

Thanks,

Roman

 


--------------FE9189666C875281DF9CE2F1-- From nobody Mon Nov 14 13:37:53 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0C2012946C for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 13:37:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O2jhaHfx-_3G for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 13:37:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from bgl-iport-3.cisco.com (bgl-iport-3.cisco.com [72.163.197.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 227B512957F for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 13:30:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=19658; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1479159023; x=1480368623; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=EEHTrlfK2Rpa35VlzY0p8Xv+cx+733oWTkXmu8XxoR8=; b=dQFyGIJLqJS8nLYQtGW0wq/lnk6S0/8WmZOVCT0GHmrDxs5w7lboodGW nCMH6vFoR7uKMqchLV6XEkUfabBgF2QJfeINx7dDLOS8XUh/VFpsYPEC0 CLC9kHsw3m4h1SH4lHkY2sGaD5jidPsE7RylYUoiEHyDOHxKhAHomu5E6 g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CIAgCYKypY/xjFo0heGQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBBwEBAQEBgnM+AQEBAQF3LFSNPpcKj0SFHIIHHQEKhXsCgmQUAQIBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BYiiEYgEBBAEBASpBCxALEgYuJyIOBgEMBgIBAYhdDrIeL4smAQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEBAQEBFwWGPIF9gVWBCIQyhXcFjmB8imWQXYl/hiGRTh43gQMchTg?= =?us-ascii?q?gNId8AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.31,640,1473120000"; d="scan'208,217"; a="30664701" Received: from vla196-nat.cisco.com (HELO bgl-core-3.cisco.com) ([72.163.197.24]) by bgl-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 14 Nov 2016 21:30:19 +0000 Received: from [10.70.234.11] ([10.70.234.11]) by bgl-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id uAELUGD2017708; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 21:30:17 GMT To: "Roman D. Danyliw" , "rdobbins@arbor.net" , Daniel Migault , Robert Moskowitz , "Teague, Nik" , "Xialiang (Frank)" References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAF01A@marathon> From: Flemming Andreasen Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 16:30:16 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAF01A@marathon> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------19E6F216AED9DA4FCC17105B" Archived-At: Cc: "dots@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Dots] Feedback on draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-02 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 21:37:52 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------19E6F216AED9DA4FCC17105B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adding to this thread, I generally agree with Roman's comments. Taking a step back, can the authors explain a bit more about the new structure of the document ? - In particular, Section 3 calls out a number of different types of scenarios, however it's not obvious to me how all of those map to the actual use cases described in Appendix A (which seem like a carry-over from previous versions and need some "relay" clean-up). It would also be helpful with a diagram for each of these that clearly show how they map back to the overall DOTS architecture. - Section 4 seems to stray into aspects of architecture, requirements and protocol design, and I don't think it should. It may work better to merge Section 3 and 4 (using the Section 3 structure) and add some ladder diagrams and relevant descriptions for each high-level scenario. In that case, you would probably still need something like the message taxonomy (Section 4.3) upfront to explain what goes in these ladder/message diagrams. Also, should their not be any use case scenarious illustrating the data channel ? Thanks -- Flemming On 11/11/16 4:27 PM, Roman D. Danyliw wrote: > > Hello Roland, Daniel, Bob, Nik and Frank! > > (Chair hat off) > > Thanks for producing this -02 draft. The following is feedback from > reviewing this draft: > > ==[ Section 3 ]== > > ** It’s stated that “[a]ll scenarios presents [sic] a coordination > between the DDoS target, the DDoS attack telemetry and the > mitigator”. These three terms of “target”, “attack telemetry” and > “mitigator” are not the same. “target” and “mitigator” are elements > of the architecture. “Attack telemetry” is data that is exchanged. > I’m not sure how these dissimilar things can be coordinated together. > Also per the definitions in the requirements document, “DDoS target” > should be “DDoS attack target”. > > ==[ Section 3.1 ]== > > ** The use case name, “CPE Intra-domain …”, is misleading. Yes, the > equipment is at the customer location, but the significant property > about these devices is not their location but their inability to send > telemetry (or anything beyond “help is needed”). Their > characterization as “very basic equipment” is vague and unclear. I’d > recommend using a different name for this use case and alternative > language to characterize these devices. > > ** The acronym “CPE” is not spelled out the first time it is used. > > ** A reference to “the upstream equipment belong [sic] to the same > domain” is made. What makes a domain is not made clear. Given that a > distinction is being made between intra and inter domain use cases, it > would be valuable to expand on this key idea. > > ** The statement “that a specific contract is established between the > CPE …” is made. What kind of contract? Legal? It should be > explicitly stated. > > ** The statement “[t]he CPE and concerned traffic is likely to be > identified by the source of the alert” is made. What is “concerned > traffic”? Also, what is meant by the CPE being “identified by the > source of the alert”? > > ** The statement “[t]he DDoS mitigation service may be activated only > for the traffic associated to the CPE sending the alert or instead to > the traffic associated to all CPEs” is made. What is meant by “all > CPEs” isn’t clear. > > ==[ Section 3.2 ]== > > ** As noted for Section 3.1, this use case name, “Service/System” > isn’t clear. The distinguishing property of the devices being > highlighted in this use case seems to be that they are capable of > generating telemetry. Their characterization as “specialized > equipment” isn’t clear. > > ** The second paragraph states “[s]imilarly when an attack is detected > by the target service.” In this context, it isn’t clear what a target > service is. > > ** In the next sentence, “[t]he destination of the alert is likely to > receive alert [sic] from multiple different services”. In this > context, which services and destinations are being referenced? > > ** In the next sentence, “Such information is likely to be trusted and > considered by the mitigator to apply the appropriate security > appliance”. In this context, what is a security appliance? > > ** In the third paragraph, there are multiple references to an > “analysis phase”. What lifecycle are those phases references? What > happens before and after “analysis”? > > ==[ Section 3.3 ]== > > ** The way this use cases is written is inconsistent with Section 3.1 > and 3.2. In those use cases, the scenario was framed in terms of the > capabilities of the DOTS client. This scenario is framed around what > is added to the alert sent to the DOTS server. What does this suggest > about the capabilities of the DOTS client? > > ==[ Section 3.4 ]== > > ** This section describes a use case that arises when there are > inter-domain issues. However, there is no treatment of why > deployments are inter vs. intra domain makes any difference. > > ==[ Section 4.0 ]== > > ** The sentence “A DOTS Client or DOTS Server can be hosted on > different nodes which are associated with different functionalities > and thus leading to different expectations from DOTS”. What is meant > by “different functionalities” and “expectations of DOTS” isn’t clear > to me. > > ==[ Section 4.1 ]== > > ** The first paragraph restates the role of DOTS client. A similar, > but more concise and descriptive description is already found in > Section 2.2.1 of the architecture draft. I’d recommend only one place > for this text. > > ** DOTS client (a).(i) reads “target attack” but likely should be > “attack target” > > ** The purpose of this section isn’t clear to me. Paragraph 3 (“When > the DOTS Client is hosted …”) appears to restate and expound about the > use case in Section 3.1. The same is true for Paragraph 4 (“When the > DOTS Client is hosted on a monitoring system …”) relative to Section > 3.2; and Paragraph 5 – 6 to Section 3.3. > > ==[ Section 4.2 ]== > > ** The first paragraph (“DOTS Servers terminate …”) doesn’t appear to > be consistent with Figure 1 in the architecture draft. > > ** In the second paragraph, it is stated that “Some DOTS Clients do > not expect any interaction from the DOTS Server”. This seems to > conflict with the examples in the Appendix. > > ==[ Section 4.3 ]== > > I don’t disagree with the content, but need help understanding how > this section clarifies the use cases. > > Regards, > > Roman > > > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots --------------19E6F216AED9DA4FCC17105B Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adding to this thread, I generally agree with Roman's comments.

Taking a step back, can the authors explain a bit more about the new structure of the document ?

- In particular, Section 3 calls out a number of different types of scenarios, however it's not obvious to me how all of those map to the actual use cases described in Appendix A (which seem like a carry-over from previous versions and need some "relay" clean-up). It would also be helpful with a diagram for each of these that clearly show how they map back to the overall DOTS architecture.

- Section 4 seems to stray into aspects of architecture, requirements and protocol design, and I don't think it should. It may work better to merge Section 3 and 4 (using the Section 3 structure) and add some ladder diagrams and relevant descriptions for each high-level scenario. In that case, you would probably still need something like the message taxonomy (Section 4.3) upfront to explain what goes in these ladder/message diagrams.

Also, should their not be any use case scenarious illustrating the data channel ?

Thanks

-- Flemming



On 11/11/16 4:27 PM, Roman D. Danyliw wrote:

Hello Roland, Daniel, Bob, Nik and Frank!

 

(Chair hat off)

 

Thanks for producing this -02 draft.  The following is feedback from reviewing this draft:

 

==[ Section 3 ]==

 

** It’s stated that “[a]ll scenarios presents [sic] a coordination between the DDoS target, the DDoS attack telemetry and the mitigator”.  These three terms of “target”, “attack telemetry” and “mitigator” are not the same.  “target” and “mitigator” are elements of the architecture.  “Attack telemetry” is data that is exchanged.  I’m not sure how these dissimilar things can be coordinated together.  Also per the definitions in the requirements document, “DDoS target” should be “DDoS attack target”.

 

==[ Section 3.1 ]==

 

** The use case name, “CPE Intra-domain …”, is misleading.  Yes, the equipment is at the customer location, but the significant property about these devices is not their location but their inability to send telemetry (or anything beyond “help is needed”).  Their characterization as “very basic equipment” is vague and unclear.  I’d recommend using a different name for this use case and alternative language to characterize these devices.

 

** The acronym “CPE” is not spelled out the first time it is used.

 

** A reference to “the upstream equipment belong [sic] to the same domain” is made.  What makes a domain is not made clear.  Given that a distinction is being made between intra and inter domain use cases, it would be valuable to expand on this key idea.

 

** The statement “that a specific contract is established between the CPE …” is made.  What kind of contract?  Legal?  It should be explicitly stated.

 

** The statement “[t]he CPE and concerned traffic is likely to be identified by the source of the alert” is made.  What is “concerned traffic”?  Also, what is meant by the CPE being “identified by the source of the alert”?

 

** The statement “[t]he DDoS mitigation service may be activated only for the traffic associated to the CPE sending the alert or instead to the traffic associated to all CPEs” is made.  What is meant by “all CPEs” isn’t clear.

 

==[ Section 3.2 ]==

 

** As noted for Section 3.1, this use case name, “Service/System” isn’t clear.  The distinguishing property of the devices being highlighted in this use case seems to be that they are capable of generating telemetry.  Their characterization as “specialized equipment” isn’t clear.

 

** The second paragraph states “[s]imilarly when an attack is detected by the target service.”  In this context, it isn’t clear what a target service is.

 

** In the next sentence, “[t]he destination of the alert is likely to receive alert [sic] from multiple different services”.  In this context, which services and destinations are being referenced?

 

** In the next sentence, “Such information is likely to be trusted and considered by the mitigator to apply the appropriate security appliance”.  In this context, what is a security appliance?

 

** In the third paragraph, there are multiple references to an “analysis phase”.  What lifecycle are those phases references?  What happens before and after “analysis”?

 

==[ Section 3.3 ]==

 

** The way this use cases is written is inconsistent with Section 3.1 and 3.2.  In those use cases, the scenario was framed in terms of the capabilities of the DOTS client.  This scenario is framed around what is added to the alert sent to the DOTS server.  What does this suggest about the capabilities of the DOTS client?

 

==[ Section 3.4 ]==

 

** This section describes a use case that arises when there are inter-domain issues.  However, there is no treatment of why deployments are inter vs. intra domain makes any difference.

 

==[ Section 4.0 ]==

 

** The sentence “A DOTS Client or DOTS Server can be hosted on different nodes which are associated with different functionalities and thus leading to different expectations from DOTS”.  What is meant by “different functionalities” and “expectations of DOTS” isn’t clear to me.

 

==[ Section 4.1 ]==

 

** The first paragraph restates the role of DOTS client.  A similar, but more concise and descriptive description is already found in Section 2.2.1 of the architecture draft.  I’d recommend only one place for this text.

 

** DOTS client (a).(i) reads “target attack” but likely should be “attack target”

 

** The purpose of this section isn’t clear to me.  Paragraph 3 (“When the DOTS Client is hosted …”) appears to restate and expound about the use case in Section 3.1.  The same is true for Paragraph 4 (“When the DOTS Client is hosted on a monitoring system …”) relative to Section 3.2; and Paragraph 5 – 6 to Section 3.3.

 

==[ Section 4.2 ]==

 

** The first paragraph (“DOTS Servers terminate …”) doesn’t appear to be consistent with Figure 1 in the architecture draft.

 

** In the second paragraph, it is stated that “Some DOTS Clients do not expect any interaction from the DOTS Server”.  This seems to conflict with the examples in the Appendix.

 

==[ Section 4.3 ]==

 

I don’t disagree with the content, but need help understanding how this section clarifies the use cases.

 

Regards,

Roman

 

 



_______________________________________________
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Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots

--------------19E6F216AED9DA4FCC17105B-- From nobody Mon Nov 14 13:41:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC4D51294A1 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 13:41:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pwDiOYnGfRD5 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 13:41:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from bgl-iport-1.cisco.com (bgl-iport-1.cisco.com [72.163.197.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7604C12946C for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 13:41:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2652; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1479159670; x=1480369270; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=m0xl70CtIFBPFrW1Hm/VRqF3Ft7rLu1MGwYr0w/LYxU=; b=j58dkqQi5GIVPfDxPKTdkhQiC77gNICII1q0BRXQ/Wb4O563R5MX6Rfh ysv8hvf+U2m2URYMQ4Tmtr19vBJFjBfSutqXTBkxRnN4Q2se7If5BYmlY 8IzgPlexpbt1GZVrFksUMosojJiDBhMHDe94tRsOdtcgufRlA+4VR3PIU I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AiAwAaLypY/xjFo0heGgEBAQECAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QgBAQEBgzEBAQEBAXcsVI0+lwqUYIIHHQuCRYM2AoJkFAECAQEBAQEBAWIohGE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEDAQEBATU2EAsLDgouJzAGAQwGAgEBiFUIDrIji1UBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBARgFhjyBfYJdiikBBIhQhwyKZYkGh1eJf4YhjUSECh43gQMchTggNId?= =?us-ascii?q?8AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.31,640,1473120000"; d="scan'208";a="65202743" Received: from vla196-nat.cisco.com (HELO bgl-core-2.cisco.com) ([72.163.197.24]) by bgl-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 14 Nov 2016 21:41:07 +0000 Received: from [10.70.234.11] ([10.70.234.11]) by bgl-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id uAELf6mT009938; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 21:41:06 GMT To: Roland Dobbins , dots References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B8@marathon> <14E9BCB6-D522-4877-84E5-4589472B3CEC@arbor.net> From: Flemming Andreasen Message-ID: <82ebaed5-9b0d-efff-51ea-db589451d70c@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 16:41:06 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <14E9BCB6-D522-4877-84E5-4589472B3CEC@arbor.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 21:41:13 -0000 On 11/14/16 4:02 AM, Roland Dobbins wrote: > On 14 Nov 2016, at 15:14, Ehud Doron wrote: > >> Essentially we would like to build a "Telemetry" extension standard >> to the basic DOTS protocol, and this document would define that. > > This may make sense at some future date; initially, since we're > dealing with devices/software/systems which have radically different > paradigms, capabilities, and 'worldviews', the initial focus of DOTS > should be on signaling and status only, as the ins are universal > functions which are readily understood by most any type of > node/service/application which could participate in DOTS. > >> Keeping the telemetry specification in a separate draft is good >> approach for future extensibility. > >> For this goal, we as the DOTS WG first need to better understand (and >> agree in the group) what we see as baseline mandatory capabilities >> other DOTS draft should benefit the DOTS Telemetry. > > We've already held extensive discussions on this topic; initially, we > need a minimum viable capability to allow signaling and status > information to be passed between DOTS participants. > >> (1) Is there an undocumented telemetry use case that needs to be >> added to the use case WG document? Section 4.0 suggests that. >> Yes. We want to DOTS use cases, the existing and maybe new >> others, to be enriched with Telemetry related items. > > This can come at a later state, if the group believes it to be important. > The above statements do not seem to align with the discussion of telemetry in the use-cases-2 draft ? Can you elaborate ? > It's sub-optimal to duplicate the work done on IPFIX, I2NSF, I2RS, et. > al. in DOTS. By leaving mitigation technique specifics and telemetry > specifics to one side, we can concentrate on signaling and status, > which is all that's actually required for successful inter- and > intra-domain DOTS-enabled DDoS mitigation assistance and provisioning. > Are you saying we don't need the data channel either ? > It's important to get to an initial operating capability with the > requisite baseline capability before we expand the scope of DOTS > itself, IMHO. > Agreed we should focus on getting a baseline capability in place sooner rather than later, especially if we include a solid and interopeable extension mechanism from the beginning. -- Flemming > ----------------------------------- > Roland Dobbins > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > . > From nobody Mon Nov 14 16:34:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BCCF129411 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 16:34:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PaX2AIkJUPPQ for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 16:34:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp70.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp70.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2CD412957F for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 16:33:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp33.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp33.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2474E5603; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 19:33:56 -0500 (EST) X-Auth-ID: bgreene@senki.org Received: by smtp33.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: bgreene-AT-senki.org) with ESMTPSA id D39D556DF; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 19:33:02 -0500 (EST) X-Sender-Id: bgreene@senki.org Received: from [172.27.102.128] ([UNAVAILABLE]. [58.123.138.250]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:465 (trex/5.7.12); Mon, 14 Nov 2016 19:33:56 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-16016E78-356F-4127-B4F3-A02A8603284A Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Barry Greene X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (14B100) In-Reply-To: <3d147ef1-f86f-816f-e3bf-559c8133418f@nttv6.jp> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 09:32:53 +0900 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <054b01d23e31$05f99cd0$11ecd670$@gondrom.org> <3d147ef1-f86f-816f-e3bf-559c8133418f@nttv6.jp> To: kaname nishizuka Archived-At: Cc: Tobias Gondrom , "Roman D. Danyliw" , dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 00:34:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail-16016E78-356F-4127-B4F3-A02A8603284A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What are the final times/places for the design team breakouts? --Apple-Mail-16016E78-356F-4127-B4F3-A02A8603284A Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

What are the final times/places for the design team breakouts?
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Mon, 14 Nov 2016 17:27:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=nLRFrJ9YSREC6ej7q1/EUemWDeYw+1Uk5qFXEm6efKE=; b=PfyEGAdZ+pfcUBFdyda4Xg9H2GvzyBo5Jiti1YxubpFlorEEvXqXEM9ynf+k1P+I4u6+/0I6soJrSE6kbgEbfc82cPZNtvQShzCsEJtydq/M8UlvIEwpQjlPF051YfIbBJyBoy3x6U20kDGbXhT/GLTYMXfDSy6UsMnuNZKNinE= Authentication-Results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=rdobbins@arbor.net; Received: from [10.0.1.6] (121.162.109.253) by CY1PR0101MB1035.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.160.225.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.721.10; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 01:27:46 +0000 From: Roland Dobbins To: dots Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 08:27:31 +0700 Message-ID: <9F083430-ACD9-40D1-BD39-64B08DF67113@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <82ebaed5-9b0d-efff-51ea-db589451d70c@cisco.com> References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B8@marathon> <14E9BCB6-D522-4877-84E5-4589472B3CEC@arbor.net> <82ebaed5-9b0d-efff-51ea-db589451d70c@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 01:27:51 -0000 On 15 Nov 2016, at 4:41, Flemming Andreasen wrote: > The above statements do not seem to align with the discussion of > telemetry in the use-cases-2 draft ? Can you elaborate ? Not at this time. -02 is transitional. > Are you saying we don't need the data channel either ? Not at all, and apologies for the misimpression! ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Mon Nov 14 17:29:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D194E129411 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 17:29:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.022 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.022 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UafJ4xxeMIFx for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 17:29:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM01-BY2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2nam01on0109.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.34.109]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 068481295D0 for ; 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Danyliw" , dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor - change to Tue 19:00? X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 01:29:18 -0000 On 14 Nov 2016, at 13:05, Tobias Gondrom wrote: > Yes, we could also do the design team meeting on Tuesday after the > afternoon > session at 19:00. Are we confirmed for 1900? Many thanks! ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Mon Nov 14 17:41:49 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 183431295C1 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 17:41:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=tobias.gondrom@gondrom.org header.d=gondrom.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x0w1sRpsT--F for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 17:41:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from gondrom.org (www.gondrom.org [5.35.241.16]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3407C129529 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 17:41:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from seraph (dhcp-814a.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.129.74]) by gondrom.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B3B5D62E64; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 02:41:40 +0100 (CET) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=gondrom.org; b=iNcjMLrFP0IOSonADaNcKn8F++hhb34Qcc+sX33fXu7Nlo925Z1iRL5yDvGg6BcoK/UZfp86QfEm6RaCPZJKXwbcwwX85FwM1KVLXQgV4qvTqOsbF7877iO6ltufVj3QT4k8dGo/8inj6z2JaMW/MFOw/Wr6Vzq7BLdmO5ZCTB8=; h=From:To:Cc:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language; From: "Tobias Gondrom" To: "'Roland Dobbins'" References: <05e801d23e3d$1931d8b0$4b958a10$@gondrom.org> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:41:27 +0900 Message-ID: <109a01d23ee1$64b123a0$2e136ae0$@gondrom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQI09e4arzL4gg3zeZ7sPlkfuajL7AJeeD1/oADi6LA= Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Cc: "'Roman D. Danyliw'" , dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor - change to Tue 19:00? X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 01:41:47 -0000 Hello all, Yes, we are confirmed for today at 19:00 KST. The room is the IAOC office (right next to the Studio 7 room), 6th floor. Best regards, Tobias -----Original Message----- From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 10:29 To: Tobias Gondrom Cc: Roman D. Danyliw ; dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor - change to Tue 19:00? On 14 Nov 2016, at 13:05, Tobias Gondrom wrote: > Yes, we could also do the design team meeting on Tuesday after the > afternoon session at 19:00. Are we confirmed for 1900? Many thanks! ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins _______________________________________________ Dots mailing list Dots@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Mon Nov 14 17:45:44 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B199129594 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 17:45:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MISSING_MIMEOLE=1.899, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=tobias.gondrom@gondrom.org header.d=gondrom.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k-xH7UDqnSQM for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 17:45:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from gondrom.org (www.gondrom.org [5.35.241.16]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 912DC129467 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 17:45:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from seraph (dhcp-814a.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.129.74]) by gondrom.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 751CF62E64; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 02:45:38 +0100 (CET) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=gondrom.org; b=tXo6Jzs8SfKJEdoeI0KsXnBSEJsXp/biE/4ncYpMSVvKNn81xs09unxBRz3qublRmXXIftSyim1lxi/AqC5NOFBKS8JpscyMfJNXadMkpw9xbEYvP0eL9D9m2NlDdPsAYJpM3/3DW/s8ghr1cCudRS4zbUYJ1Jn+6wIdOmt2jxg=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language:Importance; From: "Tobias Gondrom" To: Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:45:25 +0900 Message-ID: <10ad01d23ee1$f22c9f20$d685dd60$@gondrom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_10AE_01D23F2D.62172D50" X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AdI+4e2FV7IESKDBRuG6C/DjIoaO2Q== Content-Language: en-us Importance: High Archived-At: Cc: "'Roman D. Danyliw'" Subject: Re: [Dots] UPDATE: DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 19:00-20:30KST in IAOC office on 6th floor, and Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00 KST at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 01:45:43 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_10AE_01D23F2D.62172D50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, As requested I have moved the design team meeting today to the evening. So the design team meeting will be today (Nov-15) at 19:00 - 20:30 KST in the IAOC office room (the room right next to Studio 7) on the 6th floor. (instead of the 12:00 meeting) See you there tonight. Best regards, Tobias Ps.: And in addition we shall still have the meeting for the protocols design team on Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00. From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tobias Gondrom Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 13:39 To: dots@ietf.org Cc: 'Roman D. Danyliw' Subject: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor Importance: High Dear DOTS team, Following our good experience at the last meeting, we would like to propose also for this meeting two design team meeting slots. As at the last meeting lunch meetings seemed to have had the least conflicts, we suggest to continue with that. We would propose the following two slots and arranged a room for that. If these slots do not work or have serious conflicts, please let us know. 1. Design Team meeting: Use cases Tuesday Nov-15 12:00 - 14:00KST Room: Studio 7, on 6th floor. Some questions for this meeting: - how can we improve the quality of the use case document? - have the inter-domain use cases been properly included in the use case draft? - have the use cases from the telemetry draft been sufficiently included in the use case draft? 2. Design Team meeting: Protocol discussion Thursday Nov-17 12:00 - 14:00KST Room: Studio 7, on 6th floor. Some questions for this meeting: - protocols - what messages are exchanged, contents of messages - relationship with info-model draft - converging and getting to protocol WG draft Best regards, Tobias & Roman (DOTS WG chairs) Ps.: and a reminder: our DOTS WG meeting will be on Friday morning, 9:30am (Korean time) ------=_NextPart_000_10AE_01D23F2D.62172D50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello all,

As = requested I have moved the design team meeting today to the evening. =

So the design team meeting will = be today (Nov-15) at 19:00 – 20:30 KST in the IAOC office room = (the room right next to Studio 7) on the 6th floor. =

(instead of the 12:00 meeting) =

See you there tonight. =

Best regards, = Tobias

 

Ps.: And in addition we shall still have the meeting = for the protocols design team on Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00. =

 

 

From: Dots = [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tobias = Gondrom
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 13:39
To: = dots@ietf.org
Cc: 'Roman D. Danyliw' = <rdd@cert.org>
Subject: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings = at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th = floor
Importance: High

 

Dear DOTS = team,

 

Following our good experience at the last meeting, we = would like to propose also for this meeting two design team meeting = slots.

As at the last meeting lunch = meetings seemed to have had the least conflicts, we suggest to continue = with that.

 

We would propose the following two slots and arranged = a room for that.

If these slots do = not work or have serious conflicts, please let us know. =

 

1. Design Team meeting: Use = cases

Tuesday Nov-15 12:00 - = 14:00KST

Room: Studio 7, on = 6th floor.

Some = questions for this meeting:

- how = can we improve the quality of the use case document?

- have the inter-domain use cases been properly = included in the use case draft?

- = have the use cases from the telemetry draft been sufficiently included = in the use case draft?

 

2. Design = Team meeting: Protocol discussion

Thursday Nov-17 12:00 - = 14:00KST

Room: Studio 7, on = 6th floor.

Some = questions for this meeting:

- = protocols

- what messages are = exchanged, contents of messages

- = relationship with info-model draft

- = converging and getting to protocol WG draft

 

Best = regards,

 

Tobias & Roman

(DOTS WG chairs)

 

 

Ps.: and a = reminder: our DOTS WG meeting will be on Friday morning, 9:30am (Korean = time)

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_10AE_01D23F2D.62172D50-- From nobody Mon Nov 14 21:17:39 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A607129A23 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 21:17:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.019 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.019 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wmL_i0329liZ for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 21:17:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 479B5129A21 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 21:17:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3006; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1479187056; x=1480396656; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=uXCn5Gyad6HixzPZoc1o6GmmJkwNoA5pQ/of9O2roF0=; b=OAqe/xnUhtFVWganDsc+P6EE8ppN5cKOMr6Je1D/wm6+ivZCJPlc5Ht6 Nz5f2V3IcWQ2ixdaRxqNPQ+OfA5psWJUGI+MO5v0bIUCXNUYO7+tJo7P2 kAI6nfaAXLIuvgGARcwMSo6UwBhm1A50NV3GgfpGLtDCVOQXnR7z4Kh5s 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BtAQDvmSpY/5FdJa1dGgEBAQECAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QgBAQEBgzQBAQEBAR9YgQAHjTeXCpRiggcqhXkCGoINPxQBAgEBAQEBAQFiHQu?= =?us-ascii?q?EYQEBAQQjEUMOBAIBCBEEAQEDAiMDAgICMBQBBgEBBQMCBBMIiF8Or22CKYtaA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBHIEJhTOEWoQlDS2CbYJdBY5gi2EBhjuKHoF?= =?us-ascii?q?2T4QniT2NR4QJAR43gQQTCYUccgGFAoEvgQwBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.31,640,1473120000"; d="scan'208";a="174831749" Received: from rcdn-core-9.cisco.com ([173.37.93.145]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 15 Nov 2016 05:17:35 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-019.cisco.com (xch-aln-019.cisco.com [173.36.7.29]) by rcdn-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id uAF5HZSX012270 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 05:17:35 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-ALN-019.cisco.com (173.36.7.29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 23:17:34 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 23:17:35 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-signal-channel-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHSPv6ak36UhDGaaUiDJsGXca6cGaDZf5dQ Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 05:17:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <147918663506.2384.3976656534451568403.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <147918663506.2384.3976656534451568403.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.91.196] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] FW: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-signal-channel-03.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 05:17:38 -0000 SW4gdGhlIHVwZGF0ZWQgZHJhZnQgaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LXJl ZGR5LWRvdHMtc2lnbmFsLWNoYW5uZWwtMDMsIGFkZGVkIG5ldyBTZWN0aW9ucyB0byBleHBsYWlu IGhvdyBET1RTIHNpZ25hbCBjaGFubmVsIGNhbiBiZW5lZml0IGZyb20gKEQpVExTIDEuMyBhbmQg aGVhcnRiZWF0IGV4Y2hhbmdlIGIvdyBET1RTIGFnZW50cyB1c2luZyDigJxDT0FQIHBpbmfigJ0g dGVjaG5pcXVlLg0KDQpDb21tZW50cyBhbmQgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMgYXJlIHdlbGNvbWUuDQoNCiAt VGlydQ0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogaW50ZXJuZXQtZHJhZnRz QGlldGYub3JnIFttYWlsdG86aW50ZXJuZXQtZHJhZnRzQGlldGYub3JnXSANClNlbnQ6IFR1ZXNk YXksIE5vdmVtYmVyIDE1LCAyMDE2IDEwOjQxIEFNDQpUbzogUHJhc2hhbnRoIFBhdGlsIChwcmFz cGF0aSkgPHByYXNwYXRpQGNpc2NvLmNvbT47IE1vaGFtZWQgQm91Y2FkYWlyIDxtb2hhbWVkLmJv dWNhZGFpckBvcmFuZ2UuY29tPjsgVGlydW1hbGVzd2FyIFJlZGR5ICh0aXJlZGR5KSA8dGlyZWRk eUBjaXNjby5jb20+OyBEYW4gV2luZyA8ZHdpbmctaWV0ZkBmdWdnbGVzLmNvbT4NClN1YmplY3Q6 IE5ldyBWZXJzaW9uIE5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbiBmb3IgZHJhZnQtcmVkZHktZG90cy1zaWduYWwtY2hh bm5lbC0wMy50eHQNCg0KDQpBIG5ldyB2ZXJzaW9uIG9mIEktRCwgZHJhZnQtcmVkZHktZG90cy1z aWduYWwtY2hhbm5lbC0wMy50eHQNCmhhcyBiZWVuIHN1Y2Nlc3NmdWxseSBzdWJtaXR0ZWQgYnkg VGlydW1hbGVzd2FyIFJlZGR5IGFuZCBwb3N0ZWQgdG8gdGhlIElFVEYgcmVwb3NpdG9yeS4NCg0K TmFtZToJCWRyYWZ0LXJlZGR5LWRvdHMtc2lnbmFsLWNoYW5uZWwNClJldmlzaW9uOgkwMw0KVGl0 bGU6CQlEaXN0cmlidXRlZCBEZW5pYWwtb2YtU2VydmljZSBPcGVuIFRocmVhdCBTaWduYWxpbmcg KERPVFMpIFNpZ25hbCBDaGFubmVsDQpEb2N1bWVudCBkYXRlOgkyMDE2LTExLTE0DQpHcm91cDoJ CUluZGl2aWR1YWwgU3VibWlzc2lvbg0KUGFnZXM6CQkzMQ0KVVJMOiAgICAgICAgICAgIGh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL2ludGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0cy9kcmFmdC1yZWRkeS1kb3RzLXNpZ25hbC1j aGFubmVsLTAzLnR4dA0KU3RhdHVzOiAgICAgICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5v cmcvZG9jL2RyYWZ0LXJlZGR5LWRvdHMtc2lnbmFsLWNoYW5uZWwvDQpIdG1saXplZDogICAgICAg aHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LXJlZGR5LWRvdHMtc2lnbmFsLWNoYW5u ZWwtMDMNCkRpZmY6ICAgICAgICAgICBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9yZmNkaWZmP3VybDI9 ZHJhZnQtcmVkZHktZG90cy1zaWduYWwtY2hhbm5lbC0wMw0KDQpBYnN0cmFjdDoNCiAgIFRoaXMg ZG9jdW1lbnQgc3BlY2lmaWVzIGEgbWVjaGFuaXNtIHRoYXQgYSBET1RTIGNsaWVudCBjYW4gdXNl IHRvDQogICBzaWduYWwgdGhhdCBhIG5ldHdvcmsgaXMgdW5kZXIgYSBEaXN0cmlidXRlZCBEZW5p YWwtb2YtU2VydmljZSAoRERvUykNCiAgIGF0dGFjayB0byBhbiB1cHN0cmVhbSBET1RTIHNlcnZl ciBzbyB0aGF0IGFwcHJvcHJpYXRlIG1pdGlnYXRpb24NCiAgIGFjdGlvbnMgYXJlIHVuZGVydGFr ZW4gKGluY2x1ZGluZywgYmxhY2tob2xlLCBkcm9wLCByYXRlLWxpbWl0LCBvcg0KICAgYWRkIHRv IHdhdGNoIGxpc3QpIG9uIHRoZSBzdXNwZWN0IHRyYWZmaWMuICBUaGUgZG9jdW1lbnQgc3BlY2lm aWVzDQogICB0aGUgRE9UUyBzaWduYWwgY2hhbm5lbCBpbmNsdWRpbmcgSGFwcHkgRXllYmFsbHMg Y29uc2lkZXJhdGlvbnMuICBUaGUNCiAgIHNwZWNpZmljYXRpb24gb2YgdGhlIERPVFMgZGF0YSBj aGFubmVsIGlzIGVsYWJvcmF0ZWQgaW4gYSBjb21wYW5pb24NCiAgIGRvY3VtZW50Lg0KDQogICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgDQoNCg0KUGxlYXNlIG5vdGUgdGhhdCBpdCBtYXkgdGFrZSBh IGNvdXBsZSBvZiBtaW51dGVzIGZyb20gdGhlIHRpbWUgb2Ygc3VibWlzc2lvbiB1bnRpbCB0aGUg aHRtbGl6ZWQgdmVyc2lvbiBhbmQgZGlmZiBhcmUgYXZhaWxhYmxlIGF0IHRvb2xzLmlldGYub3Jn Lg0KDQpUaGUgSUVURiBTZWNyZXRhcmlhdA0KDQo= From nobody Tue Nov 15 02:34:50 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 899661297AA for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 02:34:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MmCjVnM1T7Qu for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 02:34:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-97-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A588112960F for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 02:34:44 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=forwardok (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=31.133.133.143; From: "Susan Hares" To: References: <008f01d23f2b$277490e0$765db2a0$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <008f01d23f2b$277490e0$765db2a0$@ndzh.com> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 05:32:16 -0500 Message-ID: <00a801d23f2b$8a283480$9e789d80$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A9_01D23F01.A15B5440" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJsYSNI9YQbUtBqHoLL9S6IwUEr0J+llK+w Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Cc: shares@ndzh.com Subject: [Dots] FW: Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:34:48 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A9_01D23F01.A15B5440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 My question: Why is DOTS, SCAM, SECEVENT not using the same mechanisms = for events, configuration control and telemetry data as NM/OPS with = their own data models?=20 =C2=B7 This email walks through the DOTS drafts indicating which = of the NM/OPS services could be used, and what data is being passed.=20 =C2=B7 What I found is that 95% of work is covered by NM/OPS with = data models. =20 =20 This email is a description of this problem. I will be submitting a = draft regarding this point.=20 =20 Sue=20 =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 The DOTS workgroup has defined three main messaging models:=20 =20 * Actionable Event Alerting =E2=97=A6 Called =E2=80=98Signaling=E2=80=99 in the workgroup = =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m being attacked=E2=80=9D=20 * Configuration Control =E2=97=A6 Called =E2=80=98Bulk Data=E2=80=99 in the workgroup=20 * Telemetry information=20 =E2=97=A6 Traffic volumes, pipe capacity, mitigation efficacy, = attack details=20 =20 IETF=E2=80=99s Network Management and Operations (NM/OPS) group has = created similar mechanisms for sending events, configuration control, = and telemetry which are data-model driven. The IETF NM/OPS group use = Yang to define these data models. The data models can either support = network configuration or configuration of security policy. The = protocols used by NM/OPS for events, publication of bulk data, and = configuration are NETCONF and RESTCCONF. IPFIX sends telemetry = information.=20 =20 =20 NETCONF runs over TLS over TCP. RESTCONF runs over HTTP 1.1 over TLS = with X.509v3 certificates. IPFIX runs over TLS and DTLS (with replay = protection and anti-DOS stateless cookie mechanism). NETCONF and = RESTCONF can be encoded with XML data and JSON data. RESTCONF MAY also = be run over HTTP/2 or QUIC (work being done in the = draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notify drafts]. = [draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notify] =E2=80=93 indicates there can be = TLS heartbeat used for NETCONF/RESTCONF notifications. If the desire is = to send the NETCONF/RESTCONF over google proto-bufs, other NM/OPS are = considering this as well. RESTCONF and NETCONF meta data is encoded in = JSON or XML. RESTCONF has message caching, event streams, and the = ability to subscribe to event notifications. I2RS protocol extension to = NETCONF require mutual authentication (RFC7589). =20 =20 The ODL open software supports NETCONF and RESTCONF with these features. = Cisco provides a CONFD software set (free for prototyping) that also = support NETCONF/RESTCONF.=20 =20 My question: Why is DOTS, SCAM, SECEVENT not using the same mechanisms = for events, configuration control and telemetry data as NM/OPS with = their own data models?=20 =C2=B7 This email walks through the DOTS drafts indicating which = of the NM/OPS services could be used, and what data is being passed.=20 =C2=B7 What I found is that 95% of work is covered by NM/OPS with = data models. =20 =20 Why Do I Ask this question: I2NSF is charter to provide management for = network security functions. =20 =C2=B7 I2SNF is building off of the NETCONF/RESTCONF models. It = is important to know why DOTS is not using NM/OPS protocols + data = models so the I2NSF and DOTS can cohabitate in the same security = architecture. =20 =20 High-level details:=20 =C2=B7 DOTS can be replaced by:=20 =C2=B7 NM/OPS - I2NSF using NETCONF or RESTCONF or IPFFIX=20 =C2=B7 Can do bulk data channel and telemetry by just adding data = model=20 =C2=B7 Can do mitigate start/stop by using NETCONF/RESTCONF rpc = mechanism=20 =C2=B7 Strong identities using 802.1AR (LDevID) used by = ietf-netconf-zerotouch=20 [Bob notes that this may not be sufficiently = secure for the DOTS environment.]=20 =C2=B7 Heart-beats via the TLS protocol (or TLS=20 =C2=B7 Publication of events streams for telemetry=20 =C2=B7 Publication of notification stream for key events=20 =20 =C2=B7 I2NSF has defined data models and uses NETCONF /RESTCONF=20 o registration interfaces o Capability data model =E2=80=93 with all the mitigation features=20 o Management Interface between security controller and network = security functions (NSF) =E2=80=93 firewalls, IPS/IDS, mitigation = services,=20 o Management interface between user and security controller.=20 =20 =C2=B7 I2NSF brings along the work from I2RS that extends Netconf = and RESTCONF to have higher levels of security, mutual authentication, = confidentiality, and data integrity. =20 o I2RS extensions may create a binary encoding of NETCONF and RESTCONF = packets to increase speed. CBOR may be a good choice [Sue=E2=80=99s = note: I need to double check this point.]=20 o I2RS upcoming work may use binary encoding or protobufs. =20 =20 =C2=B7 I2NSF approach has fast implementation track =E2=80=93 4-5 = student project for mitigation of attacks via firewall, DPI, and VoiP = filtering accomplished with ODL Software on linux.=20 =20 =20 What is different in DOTS work =20 =C2=B7 Use of IPv6 header option =E2=80=93 to get opportunistic = security =20 Application heart-beats [Sue=E2=80=99s editorial note: Bob thinks I need = more comments].=20 =C2=B7 Use of google protocol buffers=20 =C2=B7 Modified transport =E2=80=93 unclear exactly why CoAP or = other protocols.=20 CoAP is UDP and Binary REST. Sue =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 Summary of DOTS Protocols and Models=20 =20 draft-teague-dots-protocol-00- two types of messages:=20 =C2=B7 Signaling data: o Client Message: sequence number (current, last), ping time, = mitigation-lists (active, requested, withdrawn) , session-config = (loss-limit, lifetime, heart-beat interval) , extensions=20 o Client Request =E2=80=93 sends (event ID, mitigation-requested, = scope, lifetime) =20 o DOTS Server: Server message: sequence-number (current, last), = request-heart-bit, request-error, message-redirect (IPv4/IPV6) redirect = target (port), MTU limit=20 o DOTS Server Status message (event-id, mitigation-enable, drops = (bytes_dropped, bps_dropped, pkts_dropped, pps_dropped), whitelist[n], = filter-list[n]=20 =20 =C2=B7 Data channel: Send white-list, black-list, configuration, = traffic-filter-management=20 =C2=B7 Mutual Authentication =E2=80=93 Like I2RS requires mutual = authentication=20 =20 =C2=B7 NETCONF/NETCONF equivalent is:=20 o Client message - RPC with reply o DOTS Server: Set-up of notify channel for subscription to = server=E2=80=99s publication of datat (denoted as pub/sub in NETCONF)=20 [suggest the text]:=20 o DOTS Server status: Pub/sub push of notification status on different = stream o TLS - Heart-beat notification o Data Channel =E2=80=93 configuration of white lists, black list, = policy and filters is what NETCONF get-config, edit-config, copy-config, = delete-config =E2=80=93 was created to do this o RESTCONF =E2=80=93 Get , post, pathc, query,=20 =20 Status : duplicate of NETCONF/RESTCONF work with different data model=20 =20 2) draft-reddy-dots-signal-channel-02 =C2=B7 Mitigation Requests: POST, DELETE, GET, PUT=20 =C2=B7 Data Contents of mitigation policy [sent by client]=20 o PUT: (policy-id, target-ip, target-port, target-protocol, FQDN, URI, = alias, lifetime)=20 o Delete: (Policy-id)=20 =C2=B7 Client sends: GET: Dots-Signal, policy-id [0 means all] = (registration)=20 =C2=B7 Server responses:=20 o Notification #1 (current state: mitigation in progress)=20 o Notification #2 (mitigation complete)=20 o Notification #3 (token stopped0 =20 RESTCONF equivalent=20 =C2=B7 PUT or DELETE for policy lists=20 =C2=B7 Notification set-up=20 =C2=B7 Channel support =E2=80=93 heart beats, error loss ratio=20 =20 Status: Duplicate of RESTCONF work with different data model=20 =20 =20 3) draft-reddy-dots-data-channel=20 =20 What data:=20 Provisioning policies: (policy-id, alias, traffic-protocol, = destination-protocol-port, destination-ip,=20 Alias1: FQDN, Alias2: URI, Alias3: E.164) =20 Filtering rules: policy-id, traffic-protocol, = source-protocol-port, destination-ip, source-ip, lifetime, dscp, traffic-rate=20 =20 I2NSF equivalents: =20 I2NSF: Data mode has already demonstrated this working at = IETF97 with=20 NETCONF/RESTCONf and a data model. =20 NETCONF/RESTCONF functionality:=20 NETCONF: Get-config, edit-config for data odel=20 RESTCONF: PUT, GET, DELETE=20 =20 Status: Already implemented in I2NSF using NETCONF/RESTCONF=20 =20 =20 4) dots-fu-dots-ipfix-extension-01=20 =20 What type of signaling: Telemetry=20 What protocol: IPFIX/PSAMP=20 What data: upstream counters, fragment statistics, response = time (server, client, session), What extension to IPFIX: =20 =C2=B7 New Flow End reason error=20 =C2=B7 New IE status for tracking to: =20 o Detect ICMP reflection attack=20 o Detect Fragment attack=20 o Detect slowloris attack=20 o Detect out-of-order packet attack=20 =20 Status: IPFIX Extended with data and error reports=20 Comment: Kudos to authors for maximizing re-use of protocols=20 =20 5) nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism =20 Why: DOTS client in different organization from DOTS server = Why automatic: Timeliness of responding to DDoS attacks Architecture:=20 Customer = (DOTS client)=20 / = Dots-server---dots-client Attack-detector=E2=80=94controller=20 |---------- = Mitigator (NSF device) =20 Groups of these are in different domain=20 =20 What is needed: confidentiality, integrity, authenticity Provisioning=20 =C2=B7 Mechanism: POST=20 =C2=B7 Data:=20 =C2=B7 Registration:=20 o Registration data: customer-name, IP version, protected zone (index, = need-alias, ipv4-cider, ipv6-address, BGP-route, SIP-URI, E164_number, = DNS), protected-port, protected-protocol, counter-measures, = tunnel-information, next-hop. Security-profile (TLS, DTLS, COAP) o White-list (name, sequence number, source-ip, destination-ip, = protocol, length, TTL, DSCP, ip_flags, tcp-flags)=20 o Black-list (name, sequence-number, source-ip, destination-ip, = source-port, destination-port, protocol, length, TTL, DSCP, ip_flags, = tcp-flags),=20 =C2=B7 Registration-response: o Data: Customer-name, customer-id, alias_of_mitigation-address = (index, string), security_profile, access-token, thresholds_bps, = thresdhold_pps, duration, capable_attack_type, registration_time, = mitigation_time)=20 =20 =C2=B7 Registration: Cancelled=20 =20 Signaling stage: =20 =C2=B7 Mitigation request Mechanism: POST =C2=B7 Mitigation request data: version, type, alert-id, = sender-id, sender-asn, mitigation-action, lifetime, max_bandwidth, = packet-header (dst_ip, alias, dst-ports, src-ips, src-ports, protocols, = tcp_flags, fragment, pkt_len, icmp_type, icmp_code, DSCP, TTL, current = throughput (bps, pps), peak_throughputs (bps, pps), average_throughputs = (bps, pps), info (attack_types, started, ongoing, severity, direction, = health), vendor (name, version, payload(offset, content, hash)=20 =C2=B7 Mitigation efficacy data: version, alert-id, send-id, = sender-asn, attack_status, health=20 =C2=B7 Mitigation termination: version, alert_id, sender_id, = sender_asn=20 =C2=B7 Heart_beat: (version, send_id, sender_asn)=20 =20 I2NSF equivalent:=20 =C2=B7 inter-cloud DDOS API =C2=B7 inter-cloud DDOS Yang Data Model=20 =C2=B7 Capability Yang data model with I2NSF interface=20 =C2=B7 RESTCONF =E2=80=93 POST, PUT, Notification service=20 =20 I2NSF uses I2RS protocol security requirements=20 =20 [draft-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements] which require: =C2=B7 Mutual authentication,=20 =C2=B7 Peer identity validation,=20 =C2=B7 confidentiality, data integrity, authentication, and replay = protection=20 =C2=B7 role-based security=20 =20 6) draft-mortensen-dots-over-udp-00=20 =20 Protocol: [draft-teague-dots-protocol]=20 What it does:=20 =C2=B7 provisioning: configuration to DOTS server via DNS SRV=20 =C2=B7 Signaling: - I=E2=80=99m being attacked/mitigation =C2=B7 Data channel: Lots of status =20 How: Is this secured?=20 =C2=B7 provisioning =E2=80=93 DOTS clients with keying material=20 o Enrollment over secure transport (private-key and certificate)=20 =C2=B7 Signaling: o DOTS over UDP =E2=80=93 [drat-rescolra-tls-dtls13]=20 =C2=A7 First insecure, then Pre-shared keys (PSKS)=20 =C2=A7 If no pre-shared keys, full DTLS handshake=20 o Messages:=20 =C2=A7 Heart-beat =E2=80=93 DOTS protocol heart beats =C2=A7 DTLS alerts can disconnect =20 =C2=B7 Data Channel =E2=80=93 TLS=20 =20 Status: =20 =C2=B7 Similar to: RESTCONF or NETCONF features (see #1)=20 o Rpc/reply=20 o Edit-config (NETCONF) or PUT or PATCH (RESTCONF) =20 =C2=B7 What is new: Keying concepts=20 =20 =20 7) draft-francois-dots-ipv6-signal-option =20 =C2=B7 What: Encode DOTS signal in IPv6 Hop-by-hop header option = (with no data)=20 =20 =C2=B7 Data: option-type, option-length, DOTS-signal attribute1, = DOTS-signal attribute2, DOTS-Signal Attribute [3] =E2=80=A6 DOTS Signal = attribute[n]=20 Attribute data: (TTL, Flag (tcp/upd), host, port, policy-id, target-ip, = target-port, target-protocol, lifetime) =C2=B7 Configuration:=20 o Set of filters over IPv6 packet headers=20 o Ratio of packets checked=20 o Timeout =C2=B7 How to process: DOTS capable router, gateway or server.=20 =20 Status: new concept of opportunistic processing of DOTS=20 =C2=B7 Means integration with router, gateway, and server in = seamless way with I2NSF, I2RS, and NETCONF/RESTCONF is necessary =20 8) draft-doron-dots-telemetry:=20 =20 =C2=B7 Protocol: ready-dots-signaling-channel, = nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism =20 =C2=B7 Pre-mitigation data: baseline total traffic (pps, bps), = total attack traffic volume (pps, bps), attack details (vendor, version, = attack-id, attack-name, attack-severity, extension), total pipe = capacity, list of authenticated source-ids. =C2=B7 Client-to-Server =E2=80=93 Telemetry attribute: baseline = total traffic (pps, bps), total attack traffic volume (pps, bps), = Mitigation efficacy factor (clean traffic/normal traffic), attack = details (vendor, version, attack-id, attack-name, attack-severity, = extension=20 =C2=B7 Server to client =E2=80=93 Telemetry attribute: Signal = counter measure=20 =20 Comparison with NM/OPS: =C2=B7 Telemetry =E2=80=93 can be done with IPFIX or = Publication/Subscription streams from NETCONF and RESTCONF.=20 =C2=B7 Pre-mitigation data, Client-server Telemetry attribute, and = Server to Client =E2=80=93 can be replaced by a data model=20 =20 9) draft-andreasen-dots-info-data-model =E2=80=93 Distributed DOS = Open-Threat signaling IM and DM=20 =20 =C2=B7 Protocol: New protocol o Signal Channel: Open/Close/Redirect signal channel, Request status, = Status update, Request Mitigation, Stop mitigation=20 o Data Channel: Open/Close/Redirect data channel, Send Data=20 o Information Elements=20 =C2=A7 Protocol version, attack target, Agent-ID =C2=A7 Blacklist, whitelist, =C2=A7 Attack telemetry =C2=A7 Mitigator feedback, Mitigation efficacy, Mitigation scope, = Mitigation Scope Conflict, Mitigation duration=20 =C2=A7 Resource group alias =C2=A7 Peer health=20 =C2=A7 Filters =C2=A7 Filter-actions=20 =C2=A7 Acceptable signal lossinesss =C2=A7 Heartbeat interval=20 =C2=A7 Extension=20 =20 Comparison with NETCONF/RESTCONF=20 o Signal channel =C2=A7 Can use rpc/rpc-reply to enact with action of signal channel=20 =C2=A7 Request mitigation/ Stop mitigation =E2=80=93 is new feature, = but it can be implemented as rpc =E2=80=93 since rpc/rpc-reply operates = as new function=20 o Data channel =C2=A7 Configuration of protocol, blacklist, whitelist, filters = filter-action, acceptable lossiness, heartbeat interval =E2=80=93 is = normal work for NETCONF/RESTCONF based on a data model,=20 =C2=A7 Attack Telemetry =E2=80=93 is a normal part of the = publication/subscription service =C2=A7 Heart-beat is current in TLS for RESTCONF, but an application = heartbeat could be added. =20 =20 Status: All of the features point to NETCONF or RESTCONF with specific = data protocol. IPFIX could also be used for telemetry. =20 =20 What=E2=80=99s new: Mitigator is new, but the rpc/rpc-reply in RESTCONF = or NETCONF should be able to provide this.=20 =20 =20 =20 10) strong identities [draft-moskowitz-dots-identities]=20 =20 Purpose: Define 2 forms of strong identities=20 o Form 1: X.509 LDevID =E2=80=93 defined in 802.1AR=20 =C2=A7 DOTS mitigation provider has PKI to issue LDevID certificates to = customer=20 =C2=A7 Can be used by Netconf-zerotouch=20 o Form 2: Raw public key: =20 =C2=A7 Type 1: HIP [RFC7401] with HIP DNS Extension [RFC8005] to = assert its HI to DOTS mitigation provider and use HIP to prove ownership = =C2=A7 Type 2: Use raw key defined in RFC7250, and use DANE [RFC6698] = to validate TLS key=20 Problem space:=20 o Context: business relationship between customer and DDoS mitigation = provider=20 =C2=A7 Type: long lived over persistent session.=20 =C2=A7 Can have trust identity from requesting provider back to attack = customer.=20 o Scope of trust:=20 =C2=A7 Web PKI has trust leakage challenge=20 =C2=A7 How can you assert trust =C2=B7 Managing trust=20 o 802.1AR =E2=80=93 type types of certificate:=20 =C2=B7 IDevID =E2=80=93 installed in device (by signed by = manufacturer=E2=80=99s CA) =C2=B7 LDevid =E2=80=93 (locally significant Secure Device = Identifier) =E2=80=93 signed by PKI appropriate to use. =20 =C2=A7 [ietf-netconf-zerotouch] =E2=80=93 uses trusted LDevID based on = owner certification (IDevID)=20 o Raw public key: hierarchical HIP can provides infrastructure of Raw = Public Keys=20 =20 Status: =C2=B7 Strong trusted identities needed by NM/OPS as well as DOTS =C2=B7 ietf-netconf-zerotouch uses 802.1AR Ldevid =20 [Editorial: Bob states that zerotouch does not say LDevID =E2=80=93 so = we need to work on this point]=20 =C2=B7 2nd approach is Raw public keys + Hierarchical HIP =20 [Bob states: For constrained or mobile device within the architecture]=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00A9_01D23F01.A15B5440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

My = question: Why is DOTS, SCAM, SECEVENT not using the same = mechanisms for events, configuration control and telemetry data as = NM/OPS with their own data models?

=C2=B7       = This = email walks through the DOTS drafts indicating which of the NM/OPS = services could be used, and what data is being passed. =

=C2=B7       = What I = found is that 95% of work is covered by NM/OPS with data models.  =

 

This email is a description of this problem.  I = will be submitting a draft regarding this point.

 

Sue

 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

 

The = DOTS workgroup has defined three main = messaging models: 

 

  • Actionable Event Alerting

=E2=97=A6        = Called = =E2=80=98Signaling=E2=80=99 in the workgroup =E2=80=93 = =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m being attacked=E2=80=9D

  • Configuration Control

=E2=97=A6        = Called = =E2=80=98Bulk Data=E2=80=99 in the workgroup

  • Telemetry information

=E2=97=A6        = Traffic  volumes, pipe capacity, mitigation efficacy, = attack details

 

IETF=E2=80=99s Network Management and Operations (NM/OPS) group = has created similar mechanisms for sending events, configuration = control, and telemetry which are data-model driven.  The IETF = NM/OPS group use Yang to define these data models.  The data models = can either support network configuration or configuration of security = policy.   The protocols used by NM/OPS for events, publication = of bulk data, and configuration are NETCONF and RESTCCONF.   = IPFIX sends telemetry information.

 

 

NETCONF runs over TLS over TCP.  RESTCONF runs = over HTTP 1.1 over TLS with X.509v3 certificates.  IPFIX runs over = TLS and DTLS (with replay protection and anti-DOS stateless cookie = mechanism).    NETCONF and RESTCONF can be encoded with = XML data and JSON data.   RESTCONF MAY also be run over HTTP/2 = or QUIC (work being done in the draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notify = drafts].   [draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notify] =E2=80=93 = indicates there can be TLS heartbeat used for NETCONF/RESTCONF = notifications.  If the desire is to send the NETCONF/RESTCONF over = google proto-bufs, other NM/OPS are considering this as well. = RESTCONF and NETCONF meta data is encoded in JSON or XML.  = RESTCONF has message caching, event streams, and the ability to = subscribe to event notifications.  I2RS protocol extension to = NETCONF require mutual authentication (RFC7589). 

 

The = ODL open software supports NETCONF and RESTCONF with these = features.  Cisco provides a CONFD software set (free for = prototyping) that also support NETCONF/RESTCONF. =

 

My = question: Why is DOTS, SCAM, SECEVENT not using the same = mechanisms for events, configuration control and telemetry data as = NM/OPS with their own data models?

=C2=B7       = This = email walks through the DOTS drafts indicating which of the NM/OPS = services could be used, and what data is being passed. =

=C2=B7       = What I = found is that 95% of work is covered by NM/OPS with data models.  =

 

Why Do = I Ask this question:  = I2NSF is charter to provide management for network security = functions. 

=C2=B7       = I2SNF = is building off of the NETCONF/RESTCONF models.  It is important to = know why DOTS is not using NM/OPS protocols + data models so the I2NSF = and DOTS can cohabitate in the same security architecture. =   

 

High-level details:

=C2=B7       = DOTS = can be replaced by:

=C2=B7       = NM/OPS = - I2NSF using NETCONF or RESTCONF or IPFFIX

=C2=B7       = Can do = bulk data channel and telemetry by just adding data model =

=C2=B7       = Can do = mitigate start/stop by using NETCONF/RESTCONF rpc mechanism =

=C2=B7       = Strong = identities using 802.1AR (LDevID) used by ietf-netconf-zerotouch =

           &nbs= p;            = ; [Bob notes that this may not be sufficiently secure for the DOTS = environment.]

=C2=B7       = Heart-beats via the TLS protocol (or TLS

=C2=B7       = Publication of events streams for  telemetry =

=C2=B7       = Publication of  notification stream for key events =

 

=C2=B7       = I2NSF = has defined  data models and uses NETCONF /RESTCONF =

o   registration interfaces

o   Capability data model =E2=80=93 with all the mitigation features =

o   Management Interface between security controller and network = security functions (NSF) =E2=80=93 firewalls, IPS/IDS, mitigation = services,

o   Management interface between user and security controller. =

 

=C2=B7       =  I2NSF brings along the work from I2RS that extends Netconf = and RESTCONF to have higher levels of security,  mutual = authentication,  confidentiality, and data integrity.   =

o   = I2RS = extensions may create a binary encoding of NETCONF and RESTCONF packets = to increase speed.  CBOR may be a good choice [Sue=E2=80=99s = note: I need to double check this point.]

o   I2RS = upcoming work may use binary encoding or  protobufs.  =

 

=C2=B7       = I2NSF = approach has fast implementation track =E2=80=93 4-5 student project for = mitigation of attacks via firewall, DPI, and VoiP filtering accomplished = with ODL Software on linux.

 

  =

What = is different in DOTS work 

=C2=B7       = Use of = IPv6 header option =E2=80=93 to get opportunistic security  

Application heart-beats [Sue=E2=80=99s editorial note: Bob thinks I need = more comments].

=C2=B7       = Use of = google protocol buffers

=C2=B7       = Modified transport =E2=80=93 unclear exactly why CoAP or other = protocols.


CoAP is UDP and Binary = REST.

Sue =  


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 

Summary of DOTS Protocols and Models =

 

draft-teague-dots-protocol-00- two types of messages: =

=C2=B7       = Signaling  data:

o   Client = Message:  sequence number (current, last), ping time, = mitigation-lists (active, requested, withdrawn) , session-config = (loss-limit, lifetime, heart-beat interval) , extensions =

o   Client = Request =E2=80=93 sends = (event ID, mitigation-requested, scope, lifetime)  =

o   DOTS = Server: Server message:  sequence-number (current, = last), request-heart-bit,  request-error, message-redirect = (IPv4/IPV6) redirect target (port), MTU limit

o   DOTS = Server Status message = (event-id, mitigation-enable, drops (bytes_dropped, bps_dropped, = pkts_dropped, pps_dropped), whitelist[n], filter-list[n] =

 

=C2=B7       = Data = channel: Send white-list, black-list, configuration, = traffic-filter-management

=C2=B7       = Mutual = Authentication = =E2=80=93 Like I2RS requires mutual authentication =

 

=C2=B7       = NETCONF/NETCONF equivalent is:

o   Client = message - RPC with reply

o   DOTS = Server: Set-up of notify channel for subscription to server=E2=80=99s = publication of datat (denoted as pub/sub in NETCONF)

           &nbs= p;            = ;  [suggest the text]:

o   DOTS = Server status: Pub/sub push of notification status on different = stream

o   TLS - = Heart-beat notification

o   Data = Channel =E2=80=93 configuration of white lists, black list, policy and = filters is what NETCONF get-config, edit-config, copy-config, = delete-config =E2=80=93 was created to do this

o   RESTCONF =E2=80=93 Get , post, pathc, query, =

 

  = Status : duplicate of NETCONF/RESTCONF work with different = data model

 

2) = draft-reddy-dots-signal-channel-02

=C2=B7       = Mitigation Requests:  POST, DELETE, GET, PUT =

=C2=B7       = Data = Contents of mitigation policy  = [sent by client]

o   PUT: = (policy-id, target-ip, target-port, target-protocol, FQDN, URI, alias, = lifetime)

o   Delete: (Policy-id)

=C2=B7       = Client = sends: GET: Dots-Signal, policy-id [0 means all]  = (registration)

=C2=B7       = Server = responses:

o   Notification #1 (current state: mitigation in progress) =

o   Notification #2 (mitigation complete)

o   Notification #3 (token stopped0

 

     RESTCONF equivalent =

=C2=B7       = PUT or = DELETE for policy lists

=C2=B7       =  Notification set-up

=C2=B7       = Channel support = =E2=80=93 heart beats, error loss ratio

 

Status: = Duplicate of RESTCONF work with different data model =

 

 

3) = draft-reddy-dots-data-channel

      

      What data: =

        Provisioning = policies:  (policy-id, alias, traffic-protocol, = destination-protocol-port, destination-ip,

           = ;            =     Alias1: FQDN, Alias2: URI,  Alias3:  = E.164)

  =

         Filtering = rules:  policy-id, traffic-protocol, source-protocol-port, = destination-ip, source-ip, lifetime,

           = ;            =            dscp, = traffic-rate

  

         I2NSF = equivalents:         =

         = I2NSF: Data mode has already demonstrated this working at IETF97 = with

NETCONF/RESTCONf and a data model.

 

          = NETCONF/RESTCONF functionality:

          NETCO= NF: Get-config, edit-config for data odel

          RESTC= ONF:  PUT, GET, DELETE

   

   Status: Already implemented in = I2NSF using NETCONF/RESTCONF

 

 

4) = dots-fu-dots-ipfix-extension-01

 

           = ; What type of signaling:  Telemetry =

           = ; What protocol:  IPFIX/PSAMP

           = ; What data: upstream counters, fragment statistics, response = time (server, client, session),

           = ; What extension to IPFIX: 

=C2=B7       = New = Flow End reason error

=C2=B7       = New IE = status for tracking  to: 

o   Detect = ICMP reflection attack

o   Detect = Fragment attack

o   Detect = slowloris attack

o   Detect = out-of-order packet attack

 

Status:  = IPFIX Extended with data and error reports

Comment: Kudos = to authors for maximizing re-use of protocols

 

5) = nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism

 

           = ; Why:  DOTS client in different organization from DOTS = server

           = ;  Why automatic:  Timeliness of responding to DDoS = attacks

           = ; Architecture:

           = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp; Customer (DOTS client)

           = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;       /

           = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;        = Dots-server---dots-client

           = ;            = Attack-detector=E2=80=94controller

           = ; =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;         |---------- = ; Mitigator (NSF device)

 

           = ;   Groups of these are in different domain =

 

What = is needed:  confidentiality, integrity, = authenticity

           = ;   Provisioning

=C2=B7       = Mechanism: POST

=C2=B7       = Data: =

=C2=B7       = Registration:

o   Registration data: customer-name, IP version, protected zone = (index, need-alias, ipv4-cider, ipv6-address, BGP-route, SIP-URI, = E164_number, DNS), protected-port, protected-protocol, counter-measures, = tunnel-information, next-hop. Security-profile (TLS, DTLS, = COAP)

o   White-list (name, sequence number, source-ip, destination-ip, = protocol, length, TTL, DSCP, ip_flags, tcp-flags) =

o   Black-list (name, sequence-number, source-ip, destination-ip, = source-port, destination-port, protocol, length, TTL, DSCP, ip_flags, = tcp-flags),

=C2=B7       = Registration-response:

o   Data: = Customer-name, customer-id, alias_of_mitigation-address (index, string), = security_profile, access-token, thresholds_bps, thresdhold_pps, = duration, capable_attack_type, registration_time, mitigation_time) =

 

=C2=B7       = Registration: Cancelled

 

Signaling stage: 

=C2=B7       = Mitigation request Mechanism: POST

=C2=B7       = Mitigation request data: version, type, alert-id, sender-id, = sender-asn, mitigation-action, lifetime, max_bandwidth, packet-header = (dst_ip, alias, dst-ports, src-ips, src-ports, protocols, = tcp_flags,  fragment, pkt_len, icmp_type, icmp_code, DSCP, TTL, = current throughput (bps, pps), peak_throughputs (bps, pps), = average_throughputs (bps, pps), info (attack_types, started, ongoing, = severity, direction, health), vendor (name, version, payload(offset, = content, hash)

=C2=B7       = Mitigation efficacy data:  version, alert-id, send-id, = sender-asn, attack_status, health

=C2=B7       = Mitigation termination:  version, alert_id, sender_id, = sender_asn

=C2=B7       = Heart_beat: (version, send_id, sender_asn) =

 

           = ; I2NSF equivalent:

=C2=B7       = inter-cloud DDOS API

=C2=B7       =  inter-cloud DDOS Yang Data Model

=C2=B7       = Capability Yang data model with I2NSF interface =

=C2=B7       = RESTCONF =E2=80=93 POST, PUT, Notification service =

 

I2NSF = uses I2RS protocol security requirements

 

           = ; [draft-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements] which = require:

=C2=B7       = Mutual = authentication,

=C2=B7       = Peer = identity validation,

=C2=B7       = confidentiality, data integrity, authentication, and replay = protection

=C2=B7       = role-based security

 

 6) draft-mortensen-dots-over-udp-00

 

Protocol: [draft-teague-dots-protocol]

What = it does:

=C2=B7       = provisioning: = configuration to DOTS server via DNS SRV

=C2=B7       = Signaling:  - I=E2=80=99m being = attacked/mitigation

=C2=B7       = Data = channel: Lots of status

 

How: = Is this secured?

=C2=B7       = provisioning =E2=80=93 DOTS clients with keying material =

o   Enrollment over secure transport (private-key and certificate) =

=C2=B7       = Signaling:

o   DOTS = over UDP =E2=80=93 [drat-rescolra-tls-dtls13]

=C2=A7  First = insecure, then Pre-shared keys (PSKS)

=C2=A7  If no = pre-shared keys, full DTLS handshake

o   Messages:

=C2=A7  Heart-beat =E2=80=93 DOTS protocol heart = beats

=C2=A7  DTLS = alerts can disconnect  

=C2=B7       = Data = Channel =E2=80=93 TLS

 

Status: 

=C2=B7       = Similar to: RESTCONF or NETCONF features (see #1) =

o   Rpc/reply

o   Edit-config (NETCONF) or PUT or PATCH (RESTCONF) =  

=C2=B7       = What = is new: Keying concepts

 

 

7) = draft-francois-dots-ipv6-signal-option  =

=C2=B7       = What: = Encode DOTS signal in IPv6 Hop-by-hop header option (with no data) =

 

=C2=B7       = Data:  option-type, option-length, DOTS-signal attribute1, = DOTS-signal attribute2, DOTS-Signal Attribute [3]  =E2=80=A6 DOTS = Signal attribute[n]

Attribute data:  (TTL, Flag (tcp/upd), host, port, = policy-id, target-ip, target-port, target-protocol, = lifetime)

=C2=B7       = Configuration:

o   Set of = filters over IPv6 packet headers

o   Ratio = of packets checked

o   Timeout

=C2=B7       = How to = process: DOTS capable router, gateway or server. =

 

Status:  new concept of opportunistic processing of DOTS =

=C2=B7       = Means = integration with router, gateway, and server in seamless way with I2NSF, = I2RS, and NETCONF/RESTCONF is necessary

 

8) = draft-doron-dots-telemetry:

 

=C2=B7       = Protocol:  ready-dots-signaling-channel, = nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism

 

=C2=B7       = Pre-mitigation data:   baseline total traffic (pps, bps), total attack = traffic volume (pps, bps), attack details (vendor, version, attack-id, = attack-name, attack-severity, extension), total pipe capacity,  = list of authenticated source-ids.

=C2=B7       = Client-to-Server =E2=80=93 Telemetry attribute:  baseline total traffic (pps, bps), total attack traffic = volume (pps, bps), Mitigation efficacy factor (clean traffic/normal = traffic), attack details (vendor, version, attack-id, attack-name, = attack-severity, extension 

=C2=B7       = Server = to client =E2=80=93 Telemetry attribute: Signal = counter measure

 

Comparison with NM/OPS:

=C2=B7       = Telemetry =E2=80=93 can be done with IPFIX or = Publication/Subscription streams from NETCONF and RESTCONF. =

=C2=B7       = Pre-mitigation data, Client-server Telemetry attribute, and = Server to Client =E2=80=93 can be replaced by a data model =

 

9) = draft-andreasen-dots-info-data-model =E2=80=93 Distributed DOS = Open-Threat signaling IM and DM

 

=C2=B7       = Protocol:  New protocol

o   Signal = Channel:  Open/Close/Redirect signal channel, Request = status, Status update, Request Mitigation, Stop mitigation =

o   Data = Channel:  Open/Close/Redirect data channel, Send Data =

o   Information Elements

=C2=A7  Protocol version, attack target, = Agent-ID

=C2=A7  Blacklist, whitelist,

=C2=A7  Attack = telemetry

=C2=A7  Mitigator feedback, Mitigation efficacy, Mitigation scope, = Mitigation Scope Conflict, Mitigation duration

=C2=A7  Resource group alias

=C2=A7  Peer = health

=C2=A7  Filters

=C2=A7  Filter-actions

=C2=A7  Acceptable signal lossinesss

=C2=A7  Heartbeat interval

=C2=A7  Extension

 

Comparison with NETCONF/RESTCONF

o   Signal = channel

=C2=A7  Can = use rpc/rpc-reply to enact with action of signal channel =

=C2=A7  Request mitigation/ Stop mitigation =E2=80=93 is new feature, = but it can be implemented as rpc =E2=80=93 since rpc/rpc-reply operates = as new function

o   Data = channel

=C2=A7  Configuration of = protocol, blacklist, whitelist, filters filter-action, acceptable = lossiness, heartbeat interval =E2=80=93 is normal work for = NETCONF/RESTCONF based on a data model,

=C2=A7  Attack = Telemetry =E2=80=93 is a normal part of the publication/subscription = service

=C2=A7  Heart-beat is current in TLS for RESTCONF, but an application = heartbeat could be added. 

 

Status: All = of the features point to NETCONF or RESTCONF with specific data = protocol.  IPFIX could also be used for telemetry.  =

 

What=E2=80=99s new:  Mitigator is new, but the = rpc/rpc-reply in RESTCONF or NETCONF should be able to provide this. =

 

 

 

10) = strong identities [draft-moskowitz-dots-identities] =

 

           = ; Purpose: Define 2 forms of strong identities

o   Form 1: X.509 LDevID =E2=80=93 defined in 802.1AR =

=C2=A7  DOTS mitigation provider has PKI to issue LDevID certificates = to customer

=C2=A7  Can be used by Netconf-zerotouch

o   Form 2: Raw public key: 

=C2=A7  Type 1:  HIP [RFC7401] with HIP DNS Extension [RFC8005] = to assert its HI to DOTS mitigation provider and use HIP to prove = ownership

=C2=A7  Type 2:  Use raw key defined in RFC7250, and use DANE = [RFC6698] to validate TLS key

Problem space:

o   Context:  business relationship between customer and = DDoS mitigation provider

=C2=A7  Type: long lived over persistent session. =

=C2=A7  Can have trust identity from requesting provider back to = attack customer.

o   Scope of trust:

=C2=A7  Web PKI has trust leakage challenge

=C2=A7  How can you assert trust

=C2=B7       = Managing trust

o   802.1AR =E2=80=93 type types of certificate: =

=C2=B7       = IDevID =E2=80=93 installed in device (by signed by = manufacturer=E2=80=99s CA)

=C2=B7       = LDevid =E2=80=93 (locally significant Secure Device = Identifier) =E2=80=93 signed by PKI appropriate to use.  =

=C2=A7  [ietf-netconf-zerotouch] =E2=80=93 uses trusted LDevID based = on owner certification (IDevID)

o   Raw public key:  hierarchical HIP can provides = infrastructure of Raw Public Keys

 

Status:

=C2=B7       = Strong = trusted identities needed by NM/OPS as well as = DOTS

=C2=B7       =  ietf-netconf-zerotouch uses 802.1AR  Ldevid =  

[Editorial: Bob states that zerotouch does not say = LDevID =E2=80=93 so we need to work on this point]

=C2=B7       = 2nd  approach is Raw public keys + Hierarchical = HIP  

[Bob states:  For constrained or mobile device within the = architecture]

 

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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:39:16 -0000 On 15 Nov 2016, at 17:32, Susan Hares wrote: > My question: Why is DOTS, SCAM, SECEVENT not using the same mechanisms > for events, configuration control and telemetry data as NM/OPS with > their own data models? The short answer is because those mechanisms don't work well in a hostile communications environment flooded with DDoS attack traffic. Out-of-band is always preferable, but in practice, it's quite rare. So, survivability and resiliency are key. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Tue Nov 15 10:20:32 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18AB01294B1 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:20:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GAxXRKOmEbdz for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:20:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM02-BL2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2nam02on0102.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.38.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37C50129408 for ; 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dGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6IC0wLjI1aW47IiBjbGFzcz0iIj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2JvZHk+ DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_0962D71809D34762916A03262A06D2E6arbornet_-- From nobody Tue Nov 15 10:24:10 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 712AC129435 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:24:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.945 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.945 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f4-FJWheU583 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:24:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-97-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E61C127078 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:24:08 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=31.133.152.135; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Roland Dobbins'" References: <008f01d23f2b$277490e0$765db2a0$@ndzh.com> <00a801d23f2b$8a283480$9e789d80$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 13:21:27 -0500 Message-ID: <00ee01d23f6d$1b7037d0$5250a770$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJsYSNI9YQbUtBqHoLL9S6IwUEr0AF817OmAngyQvufhmlb4A== Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Cc: dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 18:24:09 -0000 Roland: Perhaps the signaling protocol that says "I'm under attack" by a DOTS client has clear description of this point. These small bits of information make take a secure transport that is robust, binary and survivable under attacks. If you are transmitting lots of data (Bulk data) or setting lots of configuration (whitelist/blacklist) or doing telemetry, it needs to be secure and survivable - but at a different level. I've draw the an inter-domain secure tunnel set-up in a trust federation. The inter-domain will have long-lived connects between the server with peering contracts (see Barry's comments). Domain 1 Domain 2 DOTS DOTS Server ======================== server Mgr mgr | \----- certificate-authority--------/ | | | Client Client Dots Dots This connection needs to be mutually authenticated (Netconf over TLS X.509 / RESTCONF over TLS X.509). If you have constrained environments, you may want to improve the transport by utilizing binary (CBOR may be useful). In extreme circumstances you may want to provide additional error handling/packet at the transport (see Bob + Sues SLSSS proposal). This is an improvement over redoing the application layer programming at the server for the configuration and telemetry. Thank you for welcoming me to this group. Sue -----Original Message----- From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 7:39 AM To: Susan Hares Cc: dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions On 15 Nov 2016, at 17:32, Susan Hares wrote: > My question: Why is DOTS, SCAM, SECEVENT not using the same mechanisms > for events, configuration control and telemetry data as NM/OPS with > their own data models? The short answer is because those mechanisms don't work well in a hostile communications environment flooded with DDoS attack traffic. Out-of-band is always preferable, but in practice, it's quite rare. So, survivability and resiliency are key. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins _______________________________________________ Dots mailing list Dots@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Tue Nov 15 10:57:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BDAD1294F8 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:57:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.945 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.945 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xr0W06ibOceL for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:57:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-97-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FA6312947A for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:57:45 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=forwardok (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=31.133.152.135; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Roland Dobbins'" References: <008f01d23f2b$277490e0$765db2a0$@ndzh.com> <00a801d23f2b$8a283480$9e789d80$@ndzh.com> <00ee01d23f6d$1b7037d0$5250a770$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <00ee01d23f6d$1b7037d0$5250a770$@ndzh.com> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 13:55:13 -0500 Message-ID: <011501d23f71$cd260140$677203c0$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJsYSNI9YQbUtBqHoLL9S6IwUEr0AF817OmAngyQvsC1ykN9Z9vv47w Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Cc: dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 18:57:46 -0000 Roland: It is appears my formatting is problematic. I am reposting with better formatting. -----Original Message----- From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 1:21 PM To: 'Roland Dobbins' Cc: dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions Roland: Perhaps the signaling protocol that says "I'm under attack" by a DOTS client has clear description of this point. These small bits of information make take a secure transport that is robust, binary and survivable under attacks. If you are transmitting lots of data (Bulk data) or setting lots of configuration (whitelist/blacklist) or doing telemetry, it needs to be secure and survivable - but at a different level. I've draw the an inter-domain secure tunnel set-up in a trust federation. The inter-domain will have long-lived connects between the server with peering contracts (see Barry's comments). Domain 1 Domain 2 DOTS DOTS Server ======================== server Mgr mgr | \----- certificate-authority--------/ | | | Client Client Dots Dots This connection needs to be mutually authenticated (Netconf over TLS X.509 / RESTCONF over TLS X.509). If you have constrained environments, you may want to improve the transport by utilizing binary (CBOR may be useful). In extreme circumstances you may want to provide additional error handling/packet at the transport (see Bob + Sues SLSSS proposal). This is an improvement over redoing the application layer programming at the server for the configuration and telemetry. Thank you for welcoming me to this group. Sue -----Original Message----- From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 7:39 AM To: Susan Hares Cc: dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions On 15 Nov 2016, at 17:32, Susan Hares wrote: > My question: Why is DOTS, SCAM, SECEVENT not using the same mechanisms > for events, configuration control and telemetry data as NM/OPS with > their own data models? The short answer is because those mechanisms don't work well in a hostile communications environment flooded with DDoS attack traffic. Out-of-band is always preferable, but in practice, it's quite rare. So, survivability and resiliency are key. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins _______________________________________________ Dots mailing list Dots@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots _______________________________________________ Dots mailing list Dots@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Tue Nov 15 12:13:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7936B1294F8 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:13:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mti-systems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ncS7dZkX9QS8 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:13:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua0-x22a.google.com (mail-ua0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B15B1294BE for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:13:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id 51so96890680uai.1 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:13:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mti-systems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OeRJ14kXoV0du3hP0Vgv2zM/l7Nbhr+7jLBAvDYROac=; b=cRU5Ak61M5EiSuWgvlncKUWBQVQs4uJrLKh46jXj5lOPKM1P+OndM7OmGG5f1COClO BUdGdOufWPWRvU8EsySjveUfYCoAtCq0pt1u997l/xwRF0zfGaofvDs76XjtTljfneuQ LrjHRJeEk69oNfoTLwmfmNUhHjoX7CwXuFtZIKNPNau/EeFiaOxJGt6NdzI0FNVxouzy mtkVR+AvFGc2dxHw3R070HZsvx8oWhoYBqeqHSmNeNf72kOpE4bHP3H1sCGVN3R76vXQ YzdHwAndOGua2tjHtKPJ7FDwBqT8xEtjW9yQoTkGOjnhrxM4eVJluGqfbtkNqdEYUqTj nj9g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OeRJ14kXoV0du3hP0Vgv2zM/l7Nbhr+7jLBAvDYROac=; b=mXs3dHSt2K7OIBuPV2Z08A8joQxzBmA1xdpoYn3a07qhbF7Tkt1hvv4IOif2/Bq7qq Mzw+cloFS5MEwKF1rIxUQtx33IadQPENxYR3HUHFSaIXVnUJZRw7WkSId/iyLGOlJ82D /KCXeJPStUCKMkxqkWd0WzQXPLn0+76OU6Kq8QfQYABXVALo0FcNjyIJJw1/gd0IHCWo AZOZbQkfFLQn764G+BESN3SQsTlMadJjSVXqHJ/+A92zOsYgTMstq2muHtTmg2zVKFq9 vwdKOT6wW8SfhL2kZ+g4wlVAgq4ulyijBWNQJbu8pMdGc6tGPo0LF0s4gd+DBRXOcpyu TvFQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngvdCDJBlyxlRR694RtTcBbPnSIlDpisjVNDylAe/Mfpq0cZ910yHJoKzsEOQDsDLc9d7uS4QmrKjRQs1Cg== X-Received: by 10.176.3.67 with SMTP id 61mr12346578uat.163.1479240782941; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:13:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.176.69.210 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:13:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <00ee01d23f6d$1b7037d0$5250a770$@ndzh.com> References: <008f01d23f2b$277490e0$765db2a0$@ndzh.com> <00a801d23f2b$8a283480$9e789d80$@ndzh.com> <00ee01d23f6d$1b7037d0$5250a770$@ndzh.com> From: Gilbert Clark Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 15:13:02 -0500 Message-ID: To: Susan Hares Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ac17e67a72005415c9523 Archived-At: Cc: Roland Dobbins , dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 20:13:05 -0000 --001a113ac17e67a72005415c9523 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi: Generally speaking, I don't see anything that necessarily *prevents* one from making a draft to describe the use of NETCONF / RESTCONF in this area. I don't think it's necessarily a good idea, but ... I don't see something that would really *prevent* it. I mean, if I can shove all of my internet traffic through a DNS tunnel and have it more-or-less, kind-of work, why can't I shove DOTS messages through NETCONF? Really, I would strongly caution against using one overly-broad hammer to try to smash a bunch of very different nails across WGs with a multitude of requirements and intended use-cases here ... Also, bear in mind that NETCONF / RESTCONF would drag a lot of baggage along with it. NETCONF (as of 6241) has over 70 pages of practical content in there, and the last draft of RESTCONF I saw was equally as long. That's a lot of extra stuff people need to understand and make sure their devices can support / correctly implement just to be able to have the privilege of sending a desperate plea for help ... [rhetoric] "Hello, 911? Yes! Yes, my house is on fire ... wait, I have to do *what* to communicate with the fire department? No, I don't have two chickens ... no, my flashlight is in the burning house right now, and ... well, yes, I do happen to have a friend who speaks that language, b- okay. Okay. I'll run next door and borrow their flashlight, then get started with the morse code in Russian ... but what were the chickens for, again?"[/rhetoric] > This connection needs to be mutually authenticated (Netconf over TLS X.509 > / > RESTCONF over TLS X.509). If you have constrained environments, you may > want to improve the transport by utilizing binary (CBOR may be useful). > In and of itself, switching to a binary protocol does *not* magically make something viable in a constrained environment ... In extreme circumstances you may want to provide additional error > handling/packet at the transport (see Bob + Sues SLSSS proposal). This is > an improvement over redoing the application layer programming at the server > for the configuration and telemetry. > Yikes. Putting substantial quantities of additional intelligence into a transport really kind of scares me. SLSS is an entirely separate conversation, I think, and isn't necessarily a rabbit hole that I'm convinced would be terribly productive to explore as part of this thread. > Thank you for welcoming me to this group. > > Hi :) FWIW, Gilbert Clark --001a113ac17e67a72005415c9523 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi:

Generally speaking, I don't see anyth= ing that necessarily *prevents* one from making a draft to describe the use= of NETCONF / RESTCONF in this area.=C2=A0 I don't think it's neces= sarily a good idea, but ... I don't see something that would really *pr= event* it.=C2=A0 I mean, if I can shove all of my internet traffic through = a DNS tunnel and have it more-or-less, kind-of work, why can't I shove = DOTS messages through NETCONF?

Really, I would strongly caution agai= nst using one overly-broad hammer to try to smash a bunch of very different= nails across WGs with a multitude of requirements and intended use-cases h= ere ...

Also, bear in mind that NET= CONF / RESTCONF would drag a lot of baggage along with it.=C2=A0 NETCONF (a= s of 6241) has over 70 pages of practical content in there, and the last dr= aft of RESTCONF I saw was equally as long.=C2=A0 That's a lot of extra = stuff people need to understand and make sure their devices can support / c= orrectly implement just to be able to have the privilege of sending a despe= rate plea for help ...

[rhetoric] &= quot;Hello, 911?=C2=A0 Yes!=C2=A0 Yes, my house is on fire ... wait, I have= to do *what* to communicate with the fire department?=C2=A0 No, I don'= t have two chickens ... no, my flashlight is in the burning house right now= , and ... well, yes, I do happen to have a friend who speaks that language,= b- okay.=C2=A0 Okay.=C2=A0 I'll run next door and borrow their flashli= ght, then get started with the morse code in Russian ... but what were the = chickens for, again?"[/rhetoric]
<= br>

This connection needs to be mutually authenticated (Netconf over TLS X.509 = /
RESTCONF over TLS X.509).=C2=A0 If you have constrained environments, you m= ay
want to improve the transport by utilizing binary (CBOR may be useful).
=

In and of itself, switching to a binary pr= otocol does *not* magically make something viable in a constrained environm= ent ...

In extreme circumstances you may want to provide additional error
handling/packet at the transport (see Bob + Sues SLSSS proposal).=C2=A0 =C2= =A0This is
an improvement over redoing the application layer programming at the server=
for the configuration and telemetry.

Yi= kes.=C2=A0 Putting substantial quantities of additional intelligence into a= transport really kind of scares me.

SLSS is an entirely = separate conversation, I think, and isn't necessarily a rabbit hole tha= t I'm convinced would be terribly productive to explore as part of this= thread.


Thank you for welcoming me to this group.


Hi :)
=C2=A0
FWIW,
Gilbert = Clark
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CiAgICANCg0K From nobody Tue Nov 15 13:52:17 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E87F91295FE for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 13:52:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nSNTip34UsjF for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 13:52:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from bgl-iport-3.cisco.com (bgl-iport-3.cisco.com [72.163.197.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AF0B1295FD for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 13:52:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5436; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1479246732; x=1480456332; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1fz1v0kRZsW2rj1MnVQY5FeZNG+fsVsU+60KvjfYv0g=; b=ImJfmuVrJSqSBotZ2+LJb1UadG8IwsD3ajuG8BSJrRP6jbuDtofRIpxz ixbd4uRwCofqk3q+86yX4R8pFyXHVapPA57Us9WHNK41HzMcz9y75qY/d 4nkOh4nwfJ6XguY1hpaxEbNn5IklMIjNlHVvoZUH+3VtNQ7tUZR/FpJiT 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0A7BADYgitY/xjFo0hdGQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBBwEBAQEBgykOAQEBAQF3LFSkSpRiggcdC4JFgzYCgmQTAQIBAQEBAQEBYii?= =?us-ascii?q?EYgEBBAEBASAPAQU2CxAJAhIGAgImAgInIg4GAQwGAgEBF4hRDpN8nUWCKYthA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBFwWBCYUzgX0IglWBT4JjgxqCXQWPXIplkGK?= =?us-ascii?q?KAYYhjUeECiABNIEEHIMjHIF7IDSIGgEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.31,496,1473120000"; d="scan'208";a="30688902" Received: from vla196-nat.cisco.com (HELO bgl-core-3.cisco.com) ([72.163.197.24]) by bgl-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 15 Nov 2016 21:52:08 +0000 Received: from [10.70.233.227] ([10.70.233.227]) by bgl-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id uAFLq6PX002912; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 21:52:07 GMT To: "Teague, Nik" , Gilbert Clark , Susan Hares References: <008f01d23f2b$277490e0$765db2a0$@ndzh.com> <00a801d23f2b$8a283480$9e789d80$@ndzh.com> <00ee01d23f6d$1b7037d0$5250a770$@ndzh.com> <04F2843B-99C4-4EB1-8540-C52B6C22D020@verisign.com> From: Flemming Andreasen Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 16:52:05 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <04F2843B-99C4-4EB1-8540-C52B6C22D020@verisign.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: Roland Dobbins , "dots@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Dots] Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 21:52:15 -0000 As another member of the below referenced contingent, let me pile on as well: I too have a difficult time seeing how NETCONF/RESTCONF apply to the signal channel both in term of problem space and solution requirements, and hence I would ask if you have taken a careful look at all the requirements as well as the architecture document. If not, I would suggest doing that first before investing further time in this approach. As for the data channel, I think you have more potential alignment there and that may be worth taking a closer look at. A draft would go a long way towards making the proposal more concrete and evaluating it properly. Thanks -- Flemming On 11/15/16 4:33 PM, Teague, Nik wrote: > Hi, > > I’m a fully paid up member of the can’t sleep contingent – so – here goes… > > Firstly – Thanks for taking the time to consider the various drafts and for the analysis. I think Gilbert, Andrew and Roland detail the concerns well and coming from the stance of an implementer/operator I too have a hard time with NETCONF/RESTCONF in this case. > > I perceive the signal channel as being the crux of the protocol and this channels survivability and efficiency within the conditions DDoS place on infrastructure is very much in my mind as being fundamental. Anything that has overhead or baggage relating to implementation, reliable delivery, connection establishment and state retention is potentially going to be mired in dealing with just those mechanisms during a DDoS vs actually just getting the message out that there’s a fire – regardless of how nicely formatted all the extra unnecessary spikey xml tagging is. > > From a tooling up perspective - on a day to day basis, when being asked if I can integrate customer hardware, softwarek or 3rd party monitoring solution into our mitigation and monitoring platform, I simply don’t see NETCONF/RESTCONF being present and its often not a concern of the customers that this be supported in their use cases. The fall back tends to be ‘well it can send syslog, that’s got a chance… lets try that’… > > Thanks, > > -Nik > > On 16/11/2016, 05:13, "Dots on behalf of Gilbert Clark" wrote: > > Hi: > > Generally speaking, I don't see anything that necessarily *prevents* one from making a draft to describe the use of NETCONF / RESTCONF in this area. I don't think it's necessarily a good idea, but ... I don't see something that would > really *prevent* it. I mean, if I can shove all of my internet traffic through a DNS tunnel and have it more-or-less, kind-of work, why can't I shove DOTS messages through NETCONF? > > Really, I would strongly caution against using one overly-broad hammer to try to smash a bunch of very different nails across WGs with a multitude of requirements and intended use-cases here ... > > > Also, bear in mind that NETCONF / RESTCONF would drag a lot of baggage along with it. NETCONF (as of 6241) has over 70 pages of practical content in there, and the last draft of RESTCONF I saw was equally as long. That's a lot of extra stuff people need to > understand and make sure their devices can support / correctly implement just to be able to have the privilege of sending a desperate plea for help ... > > > [rhetoric] "Hello, 911? Yes! Yes, my house is on fire ... wait, I have to do *what* to communicate with the fire department? No, I don't have two chickens ... no, my flashlight is in the burning house right now, and ... well, yes, > I do happen to have a friend who speaks that language, b- okay. Okay. I'll run next door and borrow their flashlight, then get started with the morse code in Russian ... but what were the chickens for, again?"[/rhetoric] > > > > > This connection needs to be mutually authenticated (Netconf over TLS X.509 / > RESTCONF over TLS X.509). If you have constrained environments, you may > want to improve the transport by utilizing binary (CBOR may be useful). > > > > > In and of itself, switching to a binary protocol does *not* magically make something viable in a constrained environment ... > > > > > In extreme circumstances you may want to provide additional error > handling/packet at the transport (see Bob + Sues SLSSS proposal). This is > an improvement over redoing the application layer programming at the server > for the configuration and telemetry. > > > > > Yikes. Putting substantial quantities of additional intelligence into a transport really kind of scares me. > > > SLSS is an entirely separate conversation, I think, and isn't necessarily a rabbit hole that I'm convinced would be terribly productive to explore as part of this thread. > > > > > > Thank you for welcoming me to this group. > > > > > > Hi :) > > > > FWIW, > > Gilbert Clark > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Tue Nov 15 14:47:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 341E9129496 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 14:47:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.646 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.646 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MILk-3aLL7cm for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 14:47:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-97-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F154F12941A for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 14:47:45 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=forwardok (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=31.133.152.135; From: "Susan Hares" To: Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 17:45:11 -0500 Message-ID: <01a701d23f91$ef24f470$cd6edd50$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01A8_01D23F68.064F3A90" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AdI/kZgvs27TjAIMQ3eUye0Wn0SsqQ== Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Cc: 'Robert Moskowitz' Subject: [Dots] Delayed response - Due to nomcom and meetings X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 22:47:47 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01A8_01D23F68.064F3A90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good morning Dots WG: My responses to all of your wonderful email comments will be delayed until mid-day or later. I am on the NOMCOM committee and I have duties this morning from 8-12 noon. I will read and respond at that time. Sue Hares ------=_NextPart_000_01A8_01D23F68.064F3A90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Good = morning Dots WG:

 

My responses = to all of your wonderful email comments will be delayed until mid-day or = later.   I am on the NOMCOM committee and I have duties this = morning from 8-12 noon.   I will read and respond at that = time.

 

Sue Hares

------=_NextPart_000_01A8_01D23F68.064F3A90-- From nobody Tue Nov 15 17:51:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1899129616 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 17:51:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mti-systems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IhmY7ZuA2Eal for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 17:51:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk0-x22b.google.com (mail-vk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C8BA129587 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 17:51:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vk0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id 137so104218290vkl.0 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 17:51:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mti-systems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=CkjSh6Ae0tlDetR2R+fN+XRp13ooQuEReMBlFUFl4/U=; b=BL/OZCNZKewlzEa4s0Vc7Ri5J7uppq3W4icXCtzzXs78/veTvhuos5DH+2icQQSrFV xQtT9XPxYLbaY8sQYueNOFeY3reR5vIO5QqNeyHY48cKsDEtQ5pfQ9duhlyU01J3nGAB +YZEAA/c+aI8YXEfdEcbiRz+ct7Av9djDcMTsU/97wmKpoNlJHDGSqM40eETRK1JW5wU DOw1rPNxnuUh+SkpTawFf6qvSd1DAhSyjeQL5sJPb1yg4/ftTuNI4FDh2saa+TnAQxrf KR7wo2chLwW6SY2lC4fuRbD6VX2Ik1YqF41MNDqAzeYswTuZt/PVyZUnIkFpI2b2sZaW xkgg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CkjSh6Ae0tlDetR2R+fN+XRp13ooQuEReMBlFUFl4/U=; b=R4WRzW8CIHJf3XE7eoRrb6R/D0ynA8RdTBXBRuE8V9L5hEWFCHYHfov6ebq+tCcHJt 4J/sE0rKKJQfJE7a2v9dsVuRdARtbDolOSGundOPwvd9WbYVqiNNoqYGs4tPnw653dcz HXF59MipNynnxR18xqIkIdlSao8CVuW2v39H62QzDGwgOjh2S02st01IqbyL+A/P1z14 YTRim2d8VPC99TlR5NSvPwTbLaDtI1y/YH0rM2aWc6AuStxX8hRrdFmlnjY66B6ZHO9E rwg9N3RkqbCvR3UpgcTmJfwyG6Kpr6SLdw6yX0TZGn+ZCJ6oFCd6fKWULpjr4y9/B0ET C/Lw== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngvd4/VGFHD/jduElCf3Y0lbvrRAgkg8wu78K9u4/vEF73oHoN4uLwC6oc3IFu+8GXIQkIldRHPldKeSz+g== X-Received: by 10.31.120.194 with SMTP id t185mr195413vkc.125.1479261065553; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 17:51:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.176.69.210 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 17:51:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5F84CF27-3670-42B1-986C-E58F2FB610C5@verisign.com> References: <147794855166.23245.16981613655325976144.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5F84CF27-3670-42B1-986C-E58F2FB610C5@verisign.com> From: Gilbert Clark Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 20:51:04 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Teague, Nik" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c19c6c257bebb0541614e4d Archived-At: Cc: dots Subject: Re: [Dots] FW: I-D Action: draft-teague-dots-protocol-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 01:51:11 -0000 --94eb2c19c6c257bebb0541614e4d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Just now getting around to a quick read through this. A few thoughts: * I found the reference to protobufs in the document to be rather strange. I'm not sold on the idea of a tight coupling between a document and a specific serialization library, no matter how convenient / awesome the library might be. I guess protobuf3 might reference a specific implementation of protobuf, so it would *kind of* count as a protocol assuming a specific definition existed someplace which could be referenced, but still ... why use that instead of something more common that might be easier for others to read and understand offhand? * On a related note: I'll point out that I really do miss the wire definition format used in older specifications such as IP, TCP, UDP, and friends ... * The port is 4646, which is "(the hex value for the ASCII character "." twice)" Why is this relevant? * 4.3.3 - "The DOTS client may send repeated requests until it receives a suitable response from the DOTS server by which it may interpret successful receipt." Rate control is needed here. * I'd argue for an explanation of how often the client needs to perform specific actions, but also how frequently the server should expect to receive those notifications from the client. Since the environment can't be assumed to be terribly stable, I believe that it may be wise to assume that links are unstable and therefore explicitly enumerate how the most common failure modes should be addressed. * I know the signaling protocol is intended to be relatively low overhead, but an explicit reference to congestion control in the general case might be useful. * It's unusual to me to see endpoints in a protocol specification. Endpoints seem more of an application-level thing than a protocol-level thing. I mean, (I think that) I get that endpoints are tightly coupled with specific operations (and therefore possibly with different formats), but ... the specific operations here don't really change the *protocol* or the *encoding*, do they? Yes, the operations should be enumerated and defined, but I just don't know that I buy that this document is the right place to do it. * Really, the data channel has such an unbelievably tight binding to HTTP (or REST in general) that I think this document could be a lot shorter if the data section was simply a note that "The DOTS data channel uses HTTP (or a derivative thereof)", then add a reference to an external document with a supported list of endpoints that are listed as MUST, SHOULD, MAY, etc ... Cheers, Gilbert Clark On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Teague, Nik wrote: > Hi, > > Please see the below referenced protocol draft. > > We welcome feedback as always and hope that this draft may lead to some > stimulating discussion both on-list and in Seoul. > > Thanks, > > -Nik > > On 31/10/2016, 21:15, "I-D-Announce on behalf of internet-drafts@ietf.org" > > wrote: > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > > Title : DDoS Open Threat Signaling Protocol > Authors : Nik Teague > Andrew Mortensen > Filename : draft-teague-dots-protocol-00.txt > Pages : 39 > Date : 2016-10-31 > > Abstract: > This document describes Distributed-Denial-of-Service (DDoS) Open > Threat Signaling (DOTS), a signaling protocol for requesting and > managing mitigation of DDoS attacks. > > DOTS mitigation requests over the signal channel permit domains to > signal the need for help fending off DDoS attacks, setting the scope > and duration of the requested mitigation. Elements called DOTS > servers field the signals for help, and enable defensive > countermeasures to defend against the attack reported by the > clients, > reporting the status of the delegated defense to the requesting > clients. DOTS clients additionally may use the data channel to > manage filters and black- and white-lists to restrict or allow > traffic to the clients' domains arbitrarily. > > The DOTS signal channel may operate over UDP [RFC0768] and if > necessary TCP [RFC0793]. This revision discusses a transport- > agnostic approach to this channel, focusing on the message exchanges > and delegating transport specifics to other documents. The DOTS > data > channel operates over HTTPS or a transport with similar reliability, > interaction and security characteristics. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-teague-dots-protocol/ > > There's also a htmlized version available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-teague-dots-protocol-00 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > --94eb2c19c6c257bebb0541614e4d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just now getting around to a= quick read through this.=C2=A0 A few thoughts:

* I found the = reference to protobufs in the document to be rather strange.=C2=A0 I'm = not sold on the idea of a tight coupling between a document and a specific = serialization library, no matter how convenient / awesome the library might= be.=C2=A0 I guess protobuf3 might reference a specific implementation of p= rotobuf, so it would *kind of* count as a protocol assuming a specific defi= nition existed someplace which could be referenced, but still ... why use t= hat instead of something more common that might be easier for others to rea= d and understand offhand?

* On a related note: I'll p= oint out that I really do miss the wire definition format used in older spe= cifications such as IP, TCP, UDP, and friends ...

* The p= ort is 4646, which is "(the hex value for the ASCII character ".&= quot; twice)"=C2=A0 Why is this relevant?

* 4.3.3 - "The D= OTS client may send repeated requests until it receives a suitable respon= se from the DOTS server by which it may interpret successful receipt.&quo= t;=C2=A0 Rate control is needed here.

* I'd argue for= an explanation of how often the client needs to perform specific actions, = but also how frequently the server should expect to receive those notificat= ions from the client.=C2=A0 Since the environment can't be assumed to b= e terribly stable, I believe that it may be wise to assume that links are u= nstable and therefore explicitly enumerate how the most common failure mode= s should be addressed.

* I know the signaling proto= col is intended to be relatively low overhead, but an explicit reference to= congestion control in the general case might be useful.

* It&= #39;s unusual to me to see endpoints in a protocol specification.=C2=A0 End= points seem more of an application-level thing than a protocol-level thing.= =C2=A0 I mean, (I think that) I get that endpoints are tightly coupled with= specific operations (and therefore possibly with different formats), but .= .. the specific operations here don't really change the *protocol* or t= he *encoding*, do they?=C2=A0 Yes, the operations should be enumerated and = defined, but I just don't know that I buy that this document is the rig= ht place to do it.

* Really, the data channel has such an unbe= lievably tight binding to HTTP (or REST in general) that I think this docum= ent could be a lot shorter if the data section was simply a note that "= ;The DOTS data channel uses HTTP (or a derivative thereof)", then add = a reference to an external document with a supported list of endpoints that= are listed as MUST, SHOULD, MAY, etc ...

Cheers,
Gilbert Clark


On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Teague, Nik <nteague@ver= isign.com> wrote:
Hi,

Please see the below referenced protocol draft.

We welcome feedback as always and hope that this draft may lead to some sti= mulating discussion both on-list and in Seoul.

Thanks,

-Nik

On 31/10/2016, 21:15, "I-D-Announce on behalf of internet-drafts@ietf.org" <i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org on be= half of internet-drafts@ietf.or= g> wrote:


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-D= rafts directories.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0: DDoS Open Threat Signaling Protocol
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0: Nik Teague
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Andrew Mortensen
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-tea= gue-dots-protocol-00.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= 39
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 := 2016-10-31

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes Distributed-Denial-of-Se= rvice (DDoS) Open
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Threat Signaling (DOTS), a signaling protocol fo= r requesting and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0managing mitigation of DDoS attacks.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0DOTS mitigation requests over the signal channel= permit domains to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0signal the need for help fending off DDoS attack= s, setting the scope
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and duration of the requested mitigation.=C2=A0 = Elements called DOTS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0servers field the signals for help, and enable d= efensive
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0countermeasures to defend against the attack rep= orted by the clients,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reporting the status of the delegated defense to= the requesting
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0clients.=C2=A0 DOTS clients additionally may use= the data channel to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0manage filters and black- and white-lists to res= trict or allow
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0traffic to the clients' domains arbitrarily.=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The DOTS signal channel may operate over UDP [RF= C0768] and if
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0necessary TCP [RFC0793].=C2=A0 This revision dis= cusses a transport-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0agnostic approach to this channel, focusing on t= he message exchanges
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and delegating transport specifics to other docu= ments.=C2=A0 The DOTS data
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0channel operates over HTTPS or a transport with = similar reliability,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interaction and security characteristics.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.o= rg/doc/draft-teague-dots-protocol/

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 There's also a htmlized version available at:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://tools.ietf.org/html/<= wbr>draft-teague-dots-protocol-00


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the tim= e of submission
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.= org.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______________________________________________
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I-D-Announce mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I-D-Announce@ietf.or= g
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li= stinfo/i-d-announce
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.= html
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-site= s.txt


_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots

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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 03:04:44 -0000 On 16 Nov 2016, at 3:13, Gilbert Clark wrote: > Yikes. Putting substantial quantities of additional intelligence into > a > transport really kind of scares me. > > SLSS is an entirely separate conversation, I think, and isn't > necessarily a > rabbit hole that I'm convinced would be terribly productive to explore > as > part of this thread. Concur. The'it's nested standards all the way down' approach has its attractions, but ease of implementation and constrained environments such as consumer CPE, phones, et. al. (as Sue rightly notes) make this an impractical option, concur 100%. DOTS must be lightweight, in terms of what's necessary for a client/supplicant to request DDoS mitigation assistance. And we want it to be easy enough to implement that we gain wide adoption. Scope policing is also extremely important, both in terms of the abovementioned goals as well as avoiding re-inventing the wheel. This is why I'm such a fundamentalist with regards to asserting that the specifics of detection/classification/traceback and mitigation mechanisms (including telemetry) ought not to be addressed directly within DOTS. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Tue Nov 15 21:54:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E8D5129452 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 21:54:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WNl60gIWdsHh for ; 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Wed, 16 Nov 2016 05:54:32 +0000 From: "Mortensen, Andrew" To: Gilbert Clark Thread-Topic: [Dots] FW: I-D Action: draft-teague-dots-protocol-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHSM7v8rCG3+VhzbEu5bt6n9DpKoaDDVJ8AgBebsACAAEQDgA== Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 05:54:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: <147794855166.23245.16981613655325976144.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5F84CF27-3670-42B1-986C-E58F2FB610C5@verisign.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=amortensen@arbor.net; x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [31.133.159.169] x-ld-processed: 54f11205-d4aa-4809-bd36-0b542199c5b2,ExtAddr x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BL2PR01MB1778; 7:ByDu45O+IQtbPaB0tuZ5hmKuYNbbAz9oGSWT+8go7RZGN56FAc+ImCFbRqZxlza/pZGknBZa5fyDslT/vTclVr6f5qBSYhbNMUi2+iHEeQCuyM8uONa0pxbYneYo/fcGKF5AIstT66CVDbgVSkz7w5VG73h1vklHImoOkoWoVc4yp1pWD8qDDi/29RPDyJ6/GPcqEl+NT9kefRPePnrSmSA6oYaIH3y3pze+QE+ARc8H4Vn7oukR6NCOfpKEbrScpU7nyXRp+oM4v99y0TjfC9CuEVugQUlNetib/hFOxy13zhKDvlQQ1J7PuGvs/POXoKP4yM0c2iIaxNVy+a6b2R2QTO1BSwUwrOViuUt/Km0= x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 39493a0b-2ac9-4d31-d71b-08d40de50972 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(22001);SRVR:BL2PR01MB1778; 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ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 16 Nov 2016 06:07:46 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-019.cisco.com (xch-rcd-019.cisco.com [173.37.102.29]) by alln-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id uAG67kqI003229 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 16 Nov 2016 06:07:46 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-RCD-019.cisco.com (173.37.102.29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 00:07:45 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 00:07:45 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Susan Hares , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] FW: Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions Thread-Index: AQJsYSNI9YQbUtBqHoLL9S6IwUEr0J+llK+wgAFGZrA= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 06:07:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: <008f01d23f2b$277490e0$765db2a0$@ndzh.com> <00a801d23f2b$8a283480$9e789d80$@ndzh.com> 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header.d=gondrom.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lrW3M5FBLk-X for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 22:31:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from gondrom.org (www.gondrom.org [5.35.241.16]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FCC6129673 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 22:31:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from seraph (dhcp-9853.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.152.83]) by gondrom.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1B3DC634B0 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 07:31:54 +0100 (CET) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=gondrom.org; b=oiopnT6dwt87KZE/V+2bgTSvewnxtlwlqro8hMCW9ZRPdVTX0ZntkwY5t6X18Cv9mho6LlADsn7UAluVCCRAv2bXFAaeUQMWzL8rJ/00/owlnZ4zQQFQyQA17e4BiU9jVLg5CKStrwTavdcC2KSQMWNrUhtOK5HNKvfnOF4pxP4=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language:Importance; From: "Tobias Gondrom" To: Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:31:40 +0900 Message-ID: <081401d23fd3$19b705c0$4d251140$@gondrom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0815_01D2401E.89A05B70" X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AdI/0nakKMnPBMuzQ3qRO9uagFzTmA== Content-Language: en-us Importance: High Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meeting at IETF97: Nov-17 at 12:10-14:00 KST at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 06:32:00 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0815_01D2401E.89A05B70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Just a quick reminder, after the successful design team meeting yesterday, we also like to offer another meeting tomorrow (Thursday) at 12:10 KST (local time). We shall start at 12:10 as the meeting agenda suggests that previous meetings can run until that time. The main agenda topic for that meeting shall be how to converge the protocols and what decisions and questions we need to raise for that to happen. And of course any other questions people from the WG might have on their mind. Again all design team meetings are open to everyone, so please feel free to drop by. 2. Design Team meeting: Protocol discussion Thursday Nov-17 12:10 - 14:00KST Room: Studio 7, on 6th floor. Some questions for this meeting: - protocols - what messages are exchanged, contents of messages - relationship with info-model draft - converging and getting to protocol WG draft With best regards, Tobias Ps.: we have no food prepared, but you could buy some from a vending booth and bring it along. From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tobias Gondrom Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 10:45 AM To: dots@ietf.org Cc: 'Roman D. Danyliw' Subject: Re: [Dots] UPDATE: DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 19:00-20:30KST in IAOC office on 6th floor, and Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00 KST at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor Importance: High Hello all, As requested I have moved the design team meeting today to the evening. So the design team meeting will be today (Nov-15) at 19:00 - 20:30 KST in the IAOC office room (the room right next to Studio 7) on the 6th floor. (instead of the 12:00 meeting) See you there tonight. Best regards, Tobias Ps.: And in addition we shall still have the meeting for the protocols design team on Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00. From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tobias Gondrom Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 13:39 To: dots@ietf.org Cc: 'Roman D. Danyliw' > Subject: [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor Importance: High Dear DOTS team, Following our good experience at the last meeting, we would like to propose also for this meeting two design team meeting slots. As at the last meeting lunch meetings seemed to have had the least conflicts, we suggest to continue with that. We would propose the following two slots and arranged a room for that. If these slots do not work or have serious conflicts, please let us know. 1. Design Team meeting: Use cases Tuesday Nov-15 12:00 - 14:00KST Room: Studio 7, on 6th floor. Some questions for this meeting: - how can we improve the quality of the use case document? - have the inter-domain use cases been properly included in the use case draft? - have the use cases from the telemetry draft been sufficiently included in the use case draft? 2. Design Team meeting: Protocol discussion Thursday Nov-17 12:00 - 14:00KST Room: Studio 7, on 6th floor. Some questions for this meeting: - protocols - what messages are exchanged, contents of messages - relationship with info-model draft - converging and getting to protocol WG draft Best regards, Tobias & Roman (DOTS WG chairs) Ps.: and a reminder: our DOTS WG meeting will be on Friday morning, 9:30am (Korean time) ------=_NextPart_000_0815_01D2401E.89A05B70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

 

Just a quick = reminder, after the successful design team meeting yesterday, we also = like to offer another meeting tomorrow (Thursday) at 12:10 KST (local = time).

We shall start at 12:10 as = the meeting agenda suggests that previous meetings can run until that = time.

The main agenda topic for that = meeting shall be how to converge the protocols and what decisions and = questions we need to raise for that to happen.

And of course any other questions people from the WG = might have on their mind.

Again all = design team meetings are open to everyone, so please feel free to drop = by.

 

2. Design Team meeting: Protocol = discussion

Thursday Nov-17 = 12:10 - 14:00KST

Room: Studio = 7, on 6th floor.

Some = questions for this meeting:

- = protocols

- what messages are = exchanged, contents of messages

- = relationship with info-model draft

- = converging and getting to protocol WG draft

 

With best = regards, Tobias

 

 

Ps.: we have = no food prepared, but you could buy some from a vending booth and bring = it along…

 

 

 

From: Dots = [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Tobias Gondrom
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, = 2016 10:45 AM
To: dots@ietf.org
Cc: 'Roman D. = Danyliw'
Subject: Re: [Dots] UPDATE: DOTS Design Team meetings = at IETF97: Nov-15 19:00-20:30KST in IAOC office on 6th floor, and Nov-17 = at 12:00-14:00 KST at room Studio 7 on the 6th = floor
Importance: High

 

Hello all, =

As requested I have moved the design = team meeting today to the evening.

So the design team meeting will be today (Nov-15) = at 19:00 – 20:30 KST in the IAOC office room (the room right next = to Studio 7) on the 6th floor.

(instead of the 12:00 meeting)

See you there tonight.

Best regards, Tobias

 

Ps.: And in = addition we shall still have the meeting for the protocols design team = on Nov-17 at 12:00-14:00.

 

 

From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Tobias Gondrom
Sent: Monday, November 14, = 2016 13:39
To: dots@ietf.org
Cc: 'Roman D. = Danyliw' <rdd@cert.org>
Subject: = [Dots] DOTS Design Team meetings at IETF97: Nov-15 and Nov-17 at = 12:00-14:00 at room Studio 7 on the 6th floor
Importance: = High

 

Dear DOTS = team,

 

Following our good experience at the last meeting, we = would like to propose also for this meeting two design team meeting = slots.

As at the last meeting lunch = meetings seemed to have had the least conflicts, we suggest to continue = with that.

 

We would propose the following two slots and arranged = a room for that.

If these slots do = not work or have serious conflicts, please let us know. =

 

1. Design Team meeting: Use = cases

Tuesday Nov-15 12:00 - = 14:00KST

Room: Studio 7, on = 6th floor.

Some = questions for this meeting:

- how = can we improve the quality of the use case document?

- have the inter-domain use cases been properly = included in the use case draft?

- = have the use cases from the telemetry draft been sufficiently included = in the use case draft?

 

2. Design = Team meeting: Protocol discussion

Thursday Nov-17 12:00 - = 14:00KST

Room: Studio 7, on = 6th floor.

Some = questions for this meeting:

- = protocols

- what messages are = exchanged, contents of messages

- = relationship with info-model draft

- = converging and getting to protocol WG draft

 

Best = regards,

 

Tobias & Roman

(DOTS WG chairs)

 

 

Ps.: and a = reminder: our DOTS WG meeting will be on Friday morning, 9:30am (Korean = time)

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0815_01D2401E.89A05B70-- From nobody Wed Nov 16 05:14:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78E92124281 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 05:14:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.018 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.018 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HAd_eB1BWXpl for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 05:14:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB2BF128B44 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 05:14:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2702; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1479302090; x=1480511690; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=Ck3C76XzV9f/ENBXN2rDF1SlvBndvevikO7/BAH8GeE=; b=BfAB/RZ83s6EipshX3s1sNA9XjhR+PXF48+hBJpAvDDL/v6EO/B9P48g Uusy5YRei4Utyzx7jENa67pKd1VScRiNicBdETzfZCWEdkbyB2f7A7Scc vwdLpNtRu1z75TyR8HYVywBBO0vf2aap6TdUZ8qGLAiOe+5xpiilmwxuZ I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BtAQD4WixY/5ldJa1eGgEBAQECAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QgBAQEBgzcBAQEBAR9YgQAHjTeXDpRiggcqhXcCGoF7PxQBAgEBAQEBAQFiHQu?= =?us-ascii?q?EYQEBAQQjEUMOBAIBCBEEAQEDAiMDAgICMBQBBgEBBQMCBBMIiGQOshyCKYtjA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBHIEJhTOEWoMLgRsNgxqCXQWOYYthAYY9iiO?= =?us-ascii?q?Bd0+EJ4k9jU2ECQEeN4EHEwmFHXIBhS6BL4EMAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.31,500,1473120000"; d="scan'208";a="171844430" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 16 Nov 2016 13:14:50 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com (xch-aln-018.cisco.com [173.36.7.28]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id uAGDEo4x016163 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 13:14:50 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com (173.36.7.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 07:14:49 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 07:14:49 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-signal-channel-04.txt Thread-Index: AQHSQAtK/keujW30RkatCzA35lkA6KDblowA Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 13:14:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: <147930203473.7417.2813682514879537996.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <147930203473.7417.2813682514879537996.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.45.100] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] FW: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-signal-channel-04.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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Wed, 16 Nov 2016 08:18:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.176.69.210 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 08:18:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <147794855166.23245.16981613655325976144.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5F84CF27-3670-42B1-986C-E58F2FB610C5@verisign.com> From: Gilbert Clark Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:18:15 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Mortensen, Andrew" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114847daa3eb4a05416d6b3a Archived-At: Cc: EXT-Teague Nik , dots Subject: Re: [Dots] FW: I-D Action: draft-teague-dots-protocol-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 16:18:19 -0000 --001a114847daa3eb4a05416d6b3a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Inline: On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 12:54 AM, Mortensen, Andrew wrote: > Thanks, Gilbert. I appreciate the comments. See inline below. > > On Nov 15, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Gilbert Clark wrote= : > > Just now getting around to a quick read through this. A few thoughts: > > * I found the reference to protobufs in the document to be rather > strange. I'm not sold on the idea of a tight coupling between a document > and a specific serialization library, no matter how convenient / awesome > the library might be. I guess protobuf3 might reference a specific > implementation of protobuf, so it would *kind of* count as a protocol > assuming a specific definition existed someplace which could be reference= d, > but still ... why use that instead of something more common that might be > easier for others to read and understand offhand? > > > I think it=E2=80=99s entirely reasonable to be uneasy about tying a stand= ard to a > specific library. The good news is that protobufs isn=E2=80=99t a library= , it=E2=80=99s an > IDL. We felt protobufs makes a good choice as the IDL for DOTS due its > compact wire representation, its support for backward-compatible schema > versioning, its language neutrality, and its extensibility. For what it= =E2=80=99s > worth, Google=E2=80=99s recent effort to standardize gRPC within the IETF= mentions > protobuf as the IDL, though so far it hasn=E2=80=99t been made a requirem= ent (see < > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-talwar-rtgwg-grpc-use-cas > es-00#section-2.2.5>). > > Can you describe what you=E2=80=99re thinking of as =E2=80=9Cmore common= =E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ceasier to > read=E2=80=9D here? We specifically avoided JSON and the like because of = the wasted > bytes in the serialization. > > My specific concerns with regard to protobuf (in this particular instance) would be: * The signaling protocol should be pretty simple - how much more complex would it be to describe a custom encoding on the wire without the use of any kind of general-purpose abstraction (read: CBOR / protobuf / JSON / what have you)? If that's too hard, I think an important question here would be "why is this too hard"? * On a related note, protobuf invites complexity by offering a convenient abstraction to shield one from having to think about the way the bytes are actually laid out on the wire. This can be a win from a rapid development perspective, but can be a loss in that it introduces a temptation to add more stuff to the protocol just because it's so easy to do it ... * The use of protobuf requires an implementer to learn protobuf well enough that they're able to use it. Yes, protobuf is an IDL, but one would need to learn an implementation of protobuf well enough to be able to use it in the code, and that adds some degree of cognitive burden to the implementation effort *if one does not already know protobuf* * The use of protobuf either limits one to platforms for which a functional implementation of protobuf exists, OR ... * The use of protobuf adds implementation overhead in that one must first implement the subset of protobuf used by DOTS before one can add DOTS support to that platform. * To my knowledge, protobuf is not often used in RFCs, so those with experience reading / implementing protocols defined in other RFCs may have to spend more time trying to study and understand this document than they would otherwise. * The port is 4646, which is "(the hex value for the ASCII character "." > twice)" Why is this relevant? > > > It=E2=80=99s a weak joke (made weaker by the fact that its the *decimal* = and not > hex value). > > Python 2.7.10 (default, Oct 23 2015, 19:19:21) > [GCC 4.2.1 Compatible Apple LLVM 7.0.0 (clang-700.0.59.5)] on darwin > Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. > >>> import struct > >>> struct.pack("BB", 46, 46) > '..=E2=80=99 <---- DOTS > > /rimshot > Right. For what it's worth, I did actually laugh at that once it was explained. In any event, I do regret my lack of humour in this instance, and hope that such will not be interpreted as a poor reflection upon my status as an IETF member or as a human being. Cheers, Gilbert --001a114847daa3eb4a05416d6b3a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Inline:

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 12:54 AM, Mortensen, Andrew <amorten= sen@arbor.net> wrote:
Thanks, Gilbert. I appreciate the comments. See inline below.

On Nov 15, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Gilbert Clark <gclark@mti-systems.com> wrote:<= /div>
Just now getting around to a quick read through this.=C2=A0 A few thou= ghts:

* I found the reference to protobufs in the document to be rather strange.= =C2=A0 I'm not sold on the idea of a tight coupling between a document = and a specific serialization library, no matter how convenient / awesome th= e library might be.=C2=A0 I guess protobuf3 might reference a specific implementation of protobuf, so it would *kind of* cou= nt as a protocol assuming a specific definition existed someplace which cou= ld be referenced, but still ... why use that instead of something more comm= on that might be easier for others to read and understand offhand?

I think it=E2=80=99s entirely reasonable to be uneasy about tyi= ng a standard to a specific library. The good news is that protobufs isn=E2= =80=99t a library, it=E2=80=99s an IDL. We felt protobufs makes a good choi= ce as the IDL for DOTS due its compact wire representation, its support for backward-compatible schema versioning, its language neutrality= , and its extensibility. For what it=E2=80=99s worth, Google=E2=80=99s rece= nt effort to standardize gRPC within the IETF mentions protobuf as the IDL,= though so far it hasn=E2=80=99t been made a requirement (see <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-talwar-rtgwg-grpc-use-cases-00#section-2.2.5>).

Can you describe what you=E2=80=99re thinking of as =E2=80=9Cmore comm= on=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ceasier to read=E2=80=9D here? We specifically avoi= ded JSON and the like because of the wasted bytes in the serialization.


My specific c= oncerns with regard to protobuf (in this particular instance) would be:
=
* The signaling protocol should be pre= tty simple - how much more complex would it be to describe a custom encodin= g on the wire without the use of any kind of general-purpose abstraction (r= ead: CBOR / protobuf / JSON / what have you)?=C2=A0 If that's too hard,= I think an important question here would be "why is this too hard&quo= t;?

* On a related note, protobuf invites complexity by offering a convenient= abstraction to shield one from having to think about the way the bytes are= actually laid out on the wire.=C2=A0 This can be a win from a rapid develo= pment perspective, but can be a loss in that it introduces a temptation to = add more stuff to the protocol just because it's so easy to do it ...

* T= he use of protobuf requires an implementer to learn protobuf well enough th= at they're able to use it.=C2=A0 Yes, protobuf is an IDL, but one would= need to learn an implementation of protobuf well enough to be able to use = it in the code, and that adds some degree of cognitive burden to the implem= entation effort *if one does not already know protobuf*

* The use of protobuf either limits one to platforms f= or which a functional implementation of protobuf exists,=C2=A0 OR ...
* The use of protobuf adds implementation overhead in that one must first= implement the subset of protobuf used by DOTS before one can add DOTS supp= ort to that platform.

* To my knowledge, protobuf is not often used in RFCs, so = those with experience reading / implementing protocols defined in other RFC= s may have to spend more time trying to study and understand this document = than they would otherwise.

* The port is 4646, which is "(the hex value for the ASCII charac= ter "." twice)"=C2=A0 Why is this relevant?

It=E2=80=99s a weak joke (made weaker by the fact that its the = *decimal* and not hex value).

Python 2.7.10 (default, Oct 23 2015, 19:19:21)
[GCC 4.2.1 Compatible Apple LLVM 7.0.0 (clang-700.0.59.5)] on darwin
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or &= quot;license" for more information.
>>> import struct
>>> struct.pack("BB", 46, 46)
'..=E2=80=99 =C2=A0<---- DOTS

/rimshot

Right= .=C2=A0 For what it's worth, I did actually laugh at that once it was e= xplained.=C2=A0

In any event, I do regret my lack of humour in this= instance, and hope that such will not be interpreted as a poor reflection = upon my status as an IETF member or as a human being.=C2=A0

<= /div>
Cheers,
Gilbert

--001a114847daa3eb4a05416d6b3a-- From nobody Wed Nov 16 08:31:06 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A47C129423 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 08:31:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BZZSPauodNNA for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 08:31:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout1.radware.com (mailout1.radwarecloud.com [192.115.180.130]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B161B1279EB for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 08:31:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from ILMB1.corp.radware.com ([169.254.1.134]) by ILCAS1.corp.radware.com ([176.200.120.121]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 18:30:59 +0200 From: Ehud Doron To: Roland Dobbins , dots , "fandreas@cisco.com" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 Thread-Index: AdI7wYm473OfPCFJSFe1ONIXj1qG/gCjJvCA///tvYD//O378A== Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 16:30:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B8@marathon> <14E9BCB6-D522-4877-84E5-4589472B3CEC@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <14E9BCB6-D522-4877-84E5-4589472B3CEC@arbor.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [176.200.121.204] x-tm-as-product-ver: SMEX-11.0.0.4179-8.000.1202-22704.000 x-tm-as-result: No--57.597100-0.000000-31 x-tm-as-user-approved-sender: Yes x-tm-as-user-blocked-sender: No Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Ehud Doron Subject: Re: [Dots] Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 16:31:05 -0000 Ronald, Flemming and all Thanks for your comments.=20 I appreciate the standpoints you present in your comments, however I really= believe the DOTS WG must also look and consider others views of the challe= nges DOTS has with regards to DOTS telemetry. =20 No doubt that for the world of DDoS services the "security visibility" is a= major concern to both the anti-DoS service providers and consumers. In all= cases where the DOTS Client will be implemented in an organizations with a= sustainable SOC/NOC teams, the ability to have "customer portal" with visi= bility into the on-going attacks is a critical part of the service. Likewis= e, anti-DoS service providers need visibility into their customers view on = the on-going attacks and other sort of views relates to the service and its= fulfillments. These are critical parts of the service.=20 Getting deeper, having comprehensive telemetry about the ongoing attacks wi= ll improve the overall mitigation accomplished, in terms of time to mitigat= e, accuracy, false-negative, false-positive, and other measures. We must ke= ep in our minds the value gained here. =20 I see all these as a major points and really want to get your view on that,= as well as the view of others at the WG. Obviously, I agree with your points that there are many cases where telemet= ry is with less relevance, mainly since DOTS agents will be integrated in "= radically different paradigms, capabilities, and 'worldviews'...." (which = for my opinion is the right architecture). Having say all that, we must con= sider environments where DOTS Client has DoS/DDoS detection and mitigation = capabilities and can practically signal valuable telemetry. These are defin= itely not rear use cases that must be considered as well.=20 For my mind, after we will get to a consensus about WG view on the needs fo= r telemetry, we can define the best way to standardize it (in which doc and= how) and also consider the right time to do. Then we can define the baseli= ne set of telemetry we believe are adequate, or the bare minimum, to standa= rdize. =20 I am looking forward to continue this discussion with you and the entire th= e WG. Please see also my comments inline.=20 Best wishes, =20 Ehud Doron | =A0Senior Architect, Radware CTO office | M: +972-54-7575503 |= T:=A0+972-72-3917120 -----Original Message----- From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 11:02 AM To: dots Subject: Re: [Dots] Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 On 14 Nov 2016, at 15:14, Ehud Doron wrote: > Essentially we would like to build a "Telemetry" extension standard to=20 > the basic DOTS protocol, and this document would define that. This may make sense at some future date; initially, since we're dealing wit= h devices/software/systems which have radically different paradigms, capabi= lities, and 'worldviews', the initial focus of DOTS should be on signaling = and status only, as the ins are universal functions which are readily under= stood by most any type of node/service/application which could participate = in DOTS. [ED] See my view in the body of the mail. > Keeping the telemetry specification in a separate draft is good=20 > approach for future extensibility. > For this goal, we as the DOTS WG first need to better understand (and=20 > agree in the group) what we see as baseline mandatory capabilities=20 > other DOTS draft should benefit the DOTS Telemetry. We've already held extensive discussions on this topic; initially, we need = a minimum viable capability to allow signaling and status information to be= passed between DOTS participants. [ED] I was not part of this discussions, sorry for that. For my mind, we ne= ed to truly define (or re-define...) the needs for DOTS Telemetry for the a= ctual users (SP, MSSP, Enterprises, carrier and so on) of DOTS, and also th= e baseline set of this telemetry.=20 > (1) Is there an undocumented telemetry use case that needs to be added=20 > to the use case WG document? Section 4.0 suggests that. > Yes. We want to DOTS use cases, the existing and maybe new=20 > others, to be enriched with Telemetry related items. This can come at a later state, if the group believes it to be important. It's sub-optimal to duplicate the work done on IPFIX, I2NSF, I2RS, et.=20 al. in DOTS. By leaving mitigation technique specifics and telemetry speci= fics to one side, we can concentrate on signaling and status, which is all = that's actually required for successful inter- and intra-domain DOTS-enable= d DDoS mitigation assistance and provisioning. [ED] Agree, we shouldn't duplicate any work done at IPFIX, I2NSF. It's important to get to an initial operating capability with the requisite= baseline capability before we expand the scope of DOTS itself, IMHO. [ED] Agree, we just need to define and get to the mutual understanding abou= t the " baseline capability" in term of telemetry. Mainly for the users and= customers of the actual anti-DoS service. =20 ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins _______________________________________________ Dots mailing list Dots@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Wed Nov 16 09:30:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7513C129422 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 09:30:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.021 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.021 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fCVCLdLKaWEC for ; 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Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:30:48 +0000 From: "Mortensen, Andrew" To: Gilbert Clark Thread-Topic: [Dots] FW: I-D Action: draft-teague-dots-protocol-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHSM7v8rCG3+VhzbEu5bt6n9DpKoaDDVJ8AgBebsACAAEQDgIAArkeAgAAUQYA= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:30:47 +0000 Message-ID: <2C60F29A-E880-411E-9400-F8A17B26EE50@arbor.net> References: <147794855166.23245.16981613655325976144.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5F84CF27-3670-42B1-986C-E58F2FB610C5@verisign.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=amortensen@arbor.net; x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [31.133.159.169] x-ld-processed: 54f11205-d4aa-4809-bd36-0b542199c5b2,ExtAddr x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BL2PR01MB1779; 7:KA6EfC2c/PlQzlfH5DCBaWHh/UGhDjqL6DBg8C/zNHLs0NABYfrhInBvAsOUHIUzsyDPrdKWECOTOer2bCxcMb+5nuYJpXS5e/O/7UsAP/LBz68/vQKR/hzeaJiFuZVlT+Mo7EWkByiF27C7sCjc/CLJOwwpqrtfuTp6VCsqlGutg/cx/pFP9Us7z9TWn0YtpUL39JIUAW5dIyOQFMId3di9oAqorv7rGnOuIi+lfX0dYa1yXO0JOEg7epku5G77qe/w3BiqEb4FDJ3mUlynFj/AUZhMclEBGOBuRiovmvumCqfFWRiQwviONa9F0WvMFWpNnt9UcV7o/ZxXfrkSmOgMrGRbG6RCxMS6kX18ZHM= x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 9283cda9-bcd0-4d18-9eb6-08d40e464dd8 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(22001);SRVR:BL2PR01MB1779; 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PGRpdj5hbmRyZXc8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_2C60F29AE880411E9400F8A17B26EE50arbornet_-- From nobody Wed Nov 16 10:57:44 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 572A312950A for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 10:57:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mti-systems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JpPw4yZwXzeT for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 10:57:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua0-x22e.google.com (mail-ua0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9047129546 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 10:57:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id 20so122422313uak.0 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 10:57:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mti-systems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SicCyiBZFIt1L8S5VZMA9Ah56k8XDy7hGD2PnLXyigA=; b=UyrupT4N2enAhfywWCMXQhUT5fiSFxfMj4nj4h9Tx2DsMdz9NSZxPBnqaZmio8s2cw pNSCQVNlTjPhl95jXCot7Tvs/pa5Bi1PkhgtJ8pG9tuiVozhY9I4dfBmuVQy0huQ13ys qrA1aj/GEIwIkQ2ADyBWUes1aMmCcvrkKu1MszeK88xK737cb+ef5MZOrVHwGCmsGBc3 x/hY9+I1bHXhaO1AHxPagkKS+FEgQ1qCq19XJc9UAYqt3wodp2znGaautoEr2KZd9Szl IZakB8mzhuo3qtVmh3onWXXcbFixrKn5REKdoj5Cg8WvKX1MPMEiRWEQ/cHacaCyaQwy YLZA== 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<147794855166.23245.16981613655325976144.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5F84CF27-3670-42B1-986C-E58F2FB610C5@verisign.com> <2C60F29A-E880-411E-9400-F8A17B26EE50@arbor.net> From: Gilbert Clark Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 13:57:39 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Mortensen, Andrew" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ac17ea5dd2005416fa556 Archived-At: Cc: EXT-Teague Nik , dots Subject: Re: [Dots] FW: I-D Action: draft-teague-dots-protocol-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 18:57:43 -0000 --001a113ac17ea5dd2005416fa556 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Let's compress this conversation. Might come back to revisit a few other points later, but for now ... There are *always* code generation targets that are unsupported. Protobuf will present a barrier to implementation on those unsupported targets, but at the same time, it will speed development and deployment on targets that do support it. My goal with this conversation is to make sure that this has been considered and is a conscious design decision, 'cause trying to implement this protocol on e.g. a 33 MHz MIPS without a complete implementation of libc might kind of suck the way things are written at the moment. If we don't care, then that's cool ... just want to be sure it's a conscious thing. -Gilbert --001a113ac17ea5dd2005416fa556 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Let's compress this conversation.=C2=A0 Might com= e back to revisit a few other points later, but for now ...

There ar= e *always* code generation targets that are unsupported.=C2=A0 Protobuf wil= l present a barrier to implementation on those unsupported targets, but=C2= =A0 at the same time, it will speed development and deployment on targets t= hat do support it.=C2=A0

My goal with this conversation is to make = sure that this has been considered and is a conscious design decision, '= ;cause trying to implement this protocol on e.g. a 33 MHz MIPS without a co= mplete implementation of libc might kind of suck the way things are written= at the moment.=C2=A0

If we don't care, then that's cool ..= . just want to be sure it's a conscious thing.

= -Gilbert

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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 22:41:33 -0000 Roland: This need for reliability and survivability is true of routing that NM/OPS (netconf/restconf) as well. Sue -----Original Message----- From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 7:39 AM To: Susan Hares Cc: dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions On 15 Nov 2016, at 17:32, Susan Hares wrote: > My question: Why is DOTS, SCAM, SECEVENT not using the same mechanisms > for events, configuration control and telemetry data as NM/OPS with > their own data models? The short answer is because those mechanisms don't work well in a hostile communications environment flooded with DDoS attack traffic. Out-of-band is always preferable, but in practice, it's quite rare. So, survivability and resiliency are key. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins _______________________________________________ Dots mailing list Dots@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Wed Nov 16 14:48:17 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80F68129432 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 14:48:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.022 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.022 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id krg0YmbSfFB4 for ; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 22:48:15 -0000 On 17 Nov 2016, at 5:38, Susan Hares wrote: > This need for reliability and survivability is true of routing that > NM/OPS (netconf/restconf) as well. If NETCONF comms traffic is traversing a data-plane channel choked with DDoS traffic, someone is Doing Something Wrong. ;> ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Wed Nov 16 14:49:26 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE69A12955E for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 14:49:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.945 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.945 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YAYNQkoyliGm for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 14:49:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-97-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACB3C1294AA for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 14:49:24 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=forwardok (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=31.133.152.135; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Roland Dobbins'" , References: <008f01d23f2b$277490e0$765db2a0$@ndzh.com> <00a801d23f2b$8a283480$9e789d80$@ndzh.com> <018501d2405a$3a3853d0$aea8fb70$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:46:52 -0500 Message-ID: <018701d2405b$54497eb0$fcdc7c10$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJsYSNI9YQbUtBqHoLL9S6IwUEr0AF817OmAngyQvsCRKtuJAMMcLHAn13DD2A= Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 22:49:26 -0000 NETCONF goes from centralized mgr to device on edge of network. DDOS in network. Sue -----Original Message----- From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 5:48 PM To: dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions On 17 Nov 2016, at 5:38, Susan Hares wrote: > This need for reliability and survivability is true of routing that > NM/OPS (netconf/restconf) as well. If NETCONF comms traffic is traversing a data-plane channel choked with DDoS traffic, someone is Doing Something Wrong. ;> ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins _______________________________________________ Dots mailing list Dots@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Wed Nov 16 14:56:56 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D43E129587 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 14:56:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mP6snIEAVsLu for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 14:56:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-97-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC804129570 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 14:56:53 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=forwardok (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=31.133.152.135; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Mortensen, Andrew'" References: <008f01d23f2b$277490e0$765db2a0$@ndzh.com> <00a801d23f2b$8a283480$9e789d80$@ndzh.com> <0962D718-09D3-4762-916A-03262A06D2E6@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <0962D718-09D3-4762-916A-03262A06D2E6@arbor.net> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:54:24 -0500 Message-ID: <018901d2405c$6173beb0$245b3c10$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_018A_01D24032.78A18740" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJsYSNI9YQbUtBqHoLL9S6IwUEr0AF817OmAj4rtEOfihoYEA== Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Cc: dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] FW: Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 22:56:55 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_018A_01D24032.78A18740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrew:=20 =20 I see the bulk transfer (configuration, data) and the telemetry as = NM/OPS applications that may run over a securely established and = maintained inter-domain connection. (See Bob + Daniel=E2=80=99s work on = the secure connection). If so, my suggestion is to define the tunnel = protocol and encryption, but re-use the management application that the = NM/OPS people have in the publication/subscription draft + the = configuration setting. Define the data model in yang. =20 =20 If you really think the management application is different, provide = reasons why. (I provided reasons why not).=20 =20 Now as to the DOTS signaling protocol =E2=80=93 I am still learning. = It=E2=80=99s how I started out this work. If it is handshake =E2=80=93 = I=E2=80=99m attack (client)/we=E2=80=99re helping (mgr/ctl) =E2=80=93 = then I have more to learn about the handshake. The message is trying = to tease out what is unique about the DOTS signaling protocol or data.=20 =20 =20 From: Mortensen, Andrew [mailto:amortensen@arbor.net]=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 1:20 PM To: Susan Hares Cc: dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] FW: Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for = management functions =20 Hi Sue. The impression I get from reading this is that you see DOTS as a = use case or subset of I2NSF. Am I misrepresenting the content = dramatically?=20 =20 A few comments marked [AM] inline. I=E2=80=99ll try to provide a more = comprehensive response soon. =20 On Nov 15, 2016, at 5:32 AM, Susan Hares wrote: =20 =20 My question: Why is DOTS, SCAM, SECEVENT not using the same mechanisms = for events, configuration control and telemetry data as NM/OPS with = their own data models?=20 =C2=B7 This email walks through the DOTS drafts indicating which = of the NM/OPS services could be used, and what data is being passed.=20 =C2=B7 What I found is that 95% of work is covered by NM/OPS with = data models. =20 [AM] This is a remarkably specific number. :) [Sue: Not precise =E2=80=93 just 95/5% rule]=20 =20 The DOTS workgroup has defined three main messaging models:=20 =20 * Actionable Event Alerting =E2=97=A6 Called =E2=80=98Signaling=E2=80=99 in the workgroup = =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m being attacked=E2=80=9D=20 =20 [AM] While generally true, this summary appears to overlook the = requirement that the signaling be operable, to the maximum degree = possible, under attack conditions. In particular, the signaling must be = robust and operable despite high rates of packet loss e.g. over a link = congested with volumetric attack traffic, and must not fragment messages = sent over the DOTS signal channel. For that reason the WG settled on the = requirement that DOTS signaling use a connectionless protocol with a = sub-MTU message size when calling for help. I=E2=80=99m not aware of a = UDP-based NETCONF, though I freely admit I may have overlooked it.=20 =20 The RESTCONF over QUIC work you mention below might be made to meet = those requirements, but QUIC is also by design a reliable transport. = However, it=E2=80=99s my personal opinion that a request/response = convention is not the best option for the SOS signaling, given the = significantly increased probability that server responses will be lost = when the inbound link is congested with attack traffic. =20 Sue: If you really want to design UDP based transport that RESTCONF goes = over =E2=80=93 I will applaud and help this. What I am concern about is = replicating the application level instrumentation (publication streams, = configuration setting). You also may consider a binary encoding (CBOR = (?))>=20 =20 For that reason, draft-teague-dots-protocol-00 decouples DOTS signal = channel messaging from the request/response model. The DOTS client = instead calls for help by sustaining mitigation requests in its = heartbeats, resembling an emergency beacon at intervals broadcasting the = need for aid. The DOTS server uses its unidirectional heartbeats to = return mitigation request status to the client. Loss in either direction = is absorbed without retransmission, since the client is concerned merely = with communicating the current need for mitigation (with associated = scope and supplementary data), and the server is concerned solely with = returning mitigation status to the client (including refusal to begin = mitigation). =20 Sue: What needs to clarified in your work is the transport = (heart-beats, request/response, etc) =E2=80=93 versus the application = functions (I=E2=80=99m attacked/mitigation, event services, application = services0. =20 =20 Once a DOTS server has enabled mitigation, ideally the data channel is = available for reliable operations. =20 * Configuration Control =E2=97=A6 Called =E2=80=98Bulk Data=E2=80=99 in the workgroup =20 [AM] I=E2=80=99m certainly open to using existing standards here. I = previously suggested RESTCONF as an option as far back as my original = threat signaling requirements draft: = . The gRPC work Google=E2=80=99s bringing forward in = is also = worth a look, though it seems like there's a degree of overlap with = NETCONF there. Not a surprise given gRPC=E2=80=99s use by OpenConfig. =20 This is good news. I think we can work together to get a UDP transport = for RESTCONF that fits the DOTS. Bob and I drew up the SLSS work as an = attempt to address some of these issues. I think a bit of discussion = at lunch today (Thursday) would be helpful.=20 =20 andrew =20 ------=_NextPart_000_018A_01D24032.78A18740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Andrew:

 

I see the bulk transfer (configuration, data) and the telemetry as = NM/OPS applications that may run over a securely established and = maintained inter-domain connection.=C2=A0 (See Bob + Daniel=E2=80=99s = work on the secure connection). =C2=A0=C2=A0If so, my suggestion is to = define the tunnel protocol and encryption, but re-use the management = application that the NM/OPS people have in the publication/subscription = draft + the configuration setting. =C2=A0=C2=A0Define the data model in = yang.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

 

If you really think the management application is different, provide = reasons why.=C2=A0 (I provided reasons why not). =

 

Now as to the DOTS signaling protocol =E2=80=93 I am still = learning.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s how I started out this work.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If = it is handshake =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99m attack (client)/we=E2=80=99re = helping (mgr/ctl) =E2=80=93 then I have more to learn about the = handshake. =C2=A0=C2=A0The message is trying to tease out what is unique = about the DOTS signaling protocol or data.

 

 

From:= = Mortensen, Andrew [mailto:amortensen@arbor.net]
Sent: = Tuesday, November 15, 2016 1:20 PM
To: Susan = Hares
Cc: dots@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dots] FW: Why = is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management = functions

 

Hi Sue. The = impression I get from reading this is that you see DOTS as a use case or = subset of I2NSF. Am I misrepresenting the content dramatically? =

 

A few comments marked [AM] inline. I=E2=80=99ll try to = provide a more comprehensive response = soon.

 

On Nov 15, 2016, at 5:32 AM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> = wrote:

 

 

My question: Why is DOTS, SCAM, SECEVENT not using the same = mechanisms for events, configuration control and telemetry data as = NM/OPS with their own data models? 

=C2=B7       This email walks through the DOTS drafts indicating = which of the NM/OPS services could be used, and what data is being = passed. 

=C2=B7       What I found is that 95% of work is covered by NM/OPS = with data models.

 

[AM] This is a remarkably specific number. = :)

[Sue: Not precise =E2=80=93 just 95/5% rule] =

 

The DOTS workgroup has defined three main messaging = models: 

 

  • Actionable Event Alerting

=E2=97=A6        Called =E2=80=98Signaling=E2=80=99 in the workgroup = =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m being attacked=E2=80=9D 

 

[AM] While generally true, this summary appears to = overlook the requirement that the signaling be operable, to the maximum = degree possible, under attack conditions. In particular, the signaling = must be robust and operable despite high rates of packet loss e.g. over = a link congested with volumetric attack traffic, and must not fragment = messages sent over the DOTS signal channel. For that reason the WG = settled on the requirement that DOTS signaling use a connectionless = protocol with a sub-MTU message size when calling for help. I=E2=80=99m = not aware of a UDP-based NETCONF, though I freely admit I may have = overlooked it.

 

The RESTCONF over QUIC work you mention below might be = made to meet those requirements, but QUIC is also by design a reliable = transport. However, it=E2=80=99s my personal opinion that a = request/response convention is not the best option for the SOS = signaling, given the significantly increased probability that server = responses will be lost when the inbound link is congested with attack = traffic.

 

Sue: If you really want to design UDP based transport that RESTCONF = goes over =E2=80=93 I will applaud and help this.=C2=A0 What I am = concern about is replicating the application level instrumentation=C2=A0 = (publication streams, configuration setting).=C2=A0 You also may = consider a binary encoding (CBOR (?))> =

 

For that reason, draft-teague-dots-protocol-00 = decouples DOTS signal channel messaging from the request/response model. = The DOTS client instead calls for help by sustaining mitigation requests = in its heartbeats, resembling an emergency beacon at intervals = broadcasting the need for aid. The DOTS server uses its unidirectional = heartbeats to return mitigation request status to the client. Loss in = either direction is absorbed without retransmission, since the client is = concerned merely with communicating the current need for mitigation = (with associated scope and supplementary data), and the server is = concerned solely with returning mitigation status to the client = (including refusal to begin mitigation).

 

Sue:=C2=A0 What needs to clarified in your work is the transport = (heart-beats, request/response, etc) =E2=80=93 versus the application = functions (I=E2=80=99m attacked/mitigation, event services, application = services0.=C2=A0

 

Once a = DOTS server has enabled mitigation, ideally the data channel is = available for reliable operations.

 

  • Configuration Control

=E2=97=A6        = ;Called =E2=80=98Bulk Data=E2=80=99 in the = workgroup

 

[AM] I=E2=80=99m certainly open to using existing = standards here. I previously suggested RESTCONF as an option as far back = as my original threat signaling requirements draft: <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mortensen-thre= at-signaling-requirements-00#section-4.1>. The gRPC work = Google=E2=80=99s bringing forward in <h= ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kumar-rtgwg-grpc-protocol-00> is = also worth a look, though it seems like there's a degree of overlap with = NETCONF there. Not a surprise given gRPC=E2=80=99s use by = OpenConfig.

 

This is good news. I think we can work together to get a UDP = transport for RESTCONF that fits the DOTS.=C2=A0 Bob and I drew up the = SLSS work as an attempt to address some of these issues.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I = think a bit of discussion at lunch today (Thursday) would be helpful. =

 

andrew

 

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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 22:58:24 -0000 T24gMTcvMTEvMjAxNiwgMDc6NDYsICJEb3RzIG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiBTdXNhbiBIYXJlcyIgPGRv dHMtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2Ygc2hhcmVzQG5kemguY29tPiB3cm90ZToN Cg0KICAgIE5FVENPTkYgZ29lcyBmcm9tIGNlbnRyYWxpemVkIG1nciB0byBkZXZpY2Ugb24gZWRn ZSBvZiBuZXR3b3JrLiAgRERPUyBpbg0KICAgIG5ldHdvcmsuDQoNCkkgaGF2ZSBhbiBPT0IgbWFu YWdlbWVudCB2cmYgb24gbXkgbmV0d29yayBidXQgSSBkb27igJl0IGhhdmUgb25lIHRoYXQgY3Jv c3NlcyBib3VuZGFyaWVzIG9yIHRoZSBpbnRlcm5ldCB0byBteSB1cHN0cmVhbXMgb3IgY2xvdWQg bWl0aWdhdGlvbiBwcm92aWRlciAoaW4gd2hpY2ggdGhlIHBhdGggaXMgY29uZ2VzdGVkKS4NCg0K RnJvbSBhIHRvb2xpbmcgcGVyc3BlY3RpdmXigKYgSSBoYXZlIDE1MDAwIG5ldHdvcmsgZGV2aWNl cyBhbmQgb25seSA2MCBzdXBwb3J0IE5FVENPTkbigKYgIA0KDQpJIHRoaW5rIHRoZSBxdWVzdGlv biBmb3IgbWUgaXMgbm90IHdoeSBhcmVu4oCZdCB3ZSBjb25zaWRlcmluZyBORVRDT05GIGJ1dCB3 aHkgc2hvdWxkIHdlPyAtIGFuZCBob3cgZG9lcyBpdCBhbGlnbiB3aXRoIHRoZSByZXF1aXJlbWVu dHMgYW5kIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZSBkcmFmdHM/DQoNClRoYW5rcywNCg0KLU5paw0KDQo= From nobody Wed Nov 16 14:58:36 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21ACF1295D5 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 14:58:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.956 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.956 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e7dJxz0ScECm for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 14:58:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-97-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C39AB1295AF for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 14:58:21 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=forwardok (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=31.133.152.135; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Tirumaleswar Reddy \(tireddy\)'" , References: <008f01d23f2b$277490e0$765db2a0$@ndzh.com> <00a801d23f2b$8a283480$9e789d80$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:55:49 -0500 Message-ID: <019601d2405c$94723fd0$bd56bf70$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0197_01D24032.ABA44E20" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJsYSNI9YQbUtBqHoLL9S6IwUEr0AF817OmAYIaOuyfj/8TEA== Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] FW: Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 22:58:27 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0197_01D24032.ABA44E20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tiru:=20 =20 I=E2=80=99m digging into the COAP protocol as it seems to really fit = this constrained environment. Is there any drafts on applying this to = DOTS?=20 =20 Sue=20 =20 From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tirumaleswar = Reddy (tireddy) Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:08 AM To: Susan Hares; dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] FW: Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for = management functions =20 COAP not only runs on UDP but also on TCP = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-05, DOTS = signaling channel needs a protocol that can run over both UDP and TCP, = compact message sizes, secure and should be able to successfully = communicate with the DOTS server in constrained environment and run on = devices constrained because of DDOS attacks. =20 DOTS signaling channel can be used both during peace time (e.g. = negotiate session signal configuration and during attack time (e.g. to = request DDOS mitigation).=20 =20 You may want to look into the requirements for DOTS signal channel in = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-requirements-03. =20 -Tiru =20 From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 4:02 PM To: dots@ietf.org Cc: shares@ndzh.com Subject: [Dots] FW: Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for = management functions =20 =20 My question: Why is DOTS, SCAM, SECEVENT not using the same mechanisms = for events, configuration control and telemetry data as NM/OPS with = their own data models?=20 =C2=B7 This email walks through the DOTS drafts indicating which = of the NM/OPS services could be used, and what data is being passed.=20 =C2=B7 What I found is that 95% of work is covered by NM/OPS with = data models. =20 =20 This email is a description of this problem. I will be submitting a = draft regarding this point.=20 =20 Sue=20 =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 The DOTS workgroup has defined three main messaging models:=20 =20 * Actionable Event Alerting =E2=97=A6 Called =E2=80=98Signaling=E2=80=99 in the workgroup = =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m being attacked=E2=80=9D=20 * Configuration Control =E2=97=A6 Called =E2=80=98Bulk Data=E2=80=99 in the workgroup=20 * Telemetry information=20 =E2=97=A6 Traffic volumes, pipe capacity, mitigation efficacy, = attack details=20 =20 IETF=E2=80=99s Network Management and Operations (NM/OPS) group has = created similar mechanisms for sending events, configuration control, = and telemetry which are data-model driven. The IETF NM/OPS group use = Yang to define these data models. The data models can either support = network configuration or configuration of security policy. The = protocols used by NM/OPS for events, publication of bulk data, and = configuration are NETCONF and RESTCCONF. IPFIX sends telemetry = information.=20 =20 =20 NETCONF runs over TLS over TCP. RESTCONF runs over HTTP 1.1 over TLS = with X.509v3 certificates. IPFIX runs over TLS and DTLS (with replay = protection and anti-DOS stateless cookie mechanism). NETCONF and = RESTCONF can be encoded with XML data and JSON data. RESTCONF MAY also = be run over HTTP/2 or QUIC (work being done in the = draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notify drafts]. = [draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notify] =E2=80=93 indicates there can be = TLS heartbeat used for NETCONF/RESTCONF notifications. If the desire is = to send the NETCONF/RESTCONF over google proto-bufs, other NM/OPS are = considering this as well. RESTCONF and NETCONF meta data is encoded in = JSON or XML. RESTCONF has message caching, event streams, and the = ability to subscribe to event notifications. I2RS protocol extension to = NETCONF require mutual authentication (RFC7589). =20 =20 The ODL open software supports NETCONF and RESTCONF with these features. = Cisco provides a CONFD software set (free for prototyping) that also = support NETCONF/RESTCONF.=20 =20 My question: Why is DOTS, SCAM, SECEVENT not using the same mechanisms = for events, configuration control and telemetry data as NM/OPS with = their own data models?=20 =C2=B7 This email walks through the DOTS drafts indicating which = of the NM/OPS services could be used, and what data is being passed.=20 =C2=B7 What I found is that 95% of work is covered by NM/OPS with = data models. =20 =20 Why Do I Ask this question: I2NSF is charter to provide management for = network security functions. =20 =C2=B7 I2SNF is building off of the NETCONF/RESTCONF models. It = is important to know why DOTS is not using NM/OPS protocols + data = models so the I2NSF and DOTS can cohabitate in the same security = architecture. =20 =20 High-level details:=20 =C2=B7 DOTS can be replaced by:=20 =C2=B7 NM/OPS - I2NSF using NETCONF or RESTCONF or IPFFIX=20 =C2=B7 Can do bulk data channel and telemetry by just adding data = model=20 =C2=B7 Can do mitigate start/stop by using NETCONF/RESTCONF rpc = mechanism=20 =C2=B7 Strong identities using 802.1AR (LDevID) used by = ietf-netconf-zerotouch=20 [Bob notes that this may not be sufficiently = secure for the DOTS environment.]=20 =C2=B7 Heart-beats via the TLS protocol (or TLS=20 =C2=B7 Publication of events streams for telemetry=20 =C2=B7 Publication of notification stream for key events=20 =20 =C2=B7 I2NSF has defined data models and uses NETCONF /RESTCONF=20 o registration interfaces o Capability data model =E2=80=93 with all the mitigation features=20 o Management Interface between security controller and network = security functions (NSF) =E2=80=93 firewalls, IPS/IDS, mitigation = services,=20 o Management interface between user and security controller.=20 =20 =C2=B7 I2NSF brings along the work from I2RS that extends Netconf = and RESTCONF to have higher levels of security, mutual authentication, = confidentiality, and data integrity. =20 o I2RS extensions may create a binary encoding of NETCONF and RESTCONF = packets to increase speed. CBOR may be a good choice [Sue=E2=80=99s = note: I need to double check this point.]=20 o I2RS upcoming work may use binary encoding or protobufs. =20 =20 =C2=B7 I2NSF approach has fast implementation track =E2=80=93 4-5 = student project for mitigation of attacks via firewall, DPI, and VoiP = filtering accomplished with ODL Software on linux.=20 =20 =20 What is different in DOTS work =20 =C2=B7 Use of IPv6 header option =E2=80=93 to get opportunistic = security =20 Application heart-beats [Sue=E2=80=99s editorial note: Bob thinks I need = more comments].=20 =C2=B7 Use of google protocol buffers=20 =C2=B7 Modified transport =E2=80=93 unclear exactly why CoAP or = other protocols.=20 CoAP is UDP and Binary REST. Sue =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 Summary of DOTS Protocols and Models=20 =20 draft-teague-dots-protocol-00- two types of messages:=20 =C2=B7 Signaling data: o Client Message: sequence number (current, last), ping time, = mitigation-lists (active, requested, withdrawn) , session-config = (loss-limit, lifetime, heart-beat interval) , extensions=20 o Client Request =E2=80=93 sends (event ID, mitigation-requested, = scope, lifetime) =20 o DOTS Server: Server message: sequence-number (current, last), = request-heart-bit, request-error, message-redirect (IPv4/IPV6) redirect = target (port), MTU limit=20 o DOTS Server Status message (event-id, mitigation-enable, drops = (bytes_dropped, bps_dropped, pkts_dropped, pps_dropped), whitelist[n], = filter-list[n]=20 =20 =C2=B7 Data channel: Send white-list, black-list, configuration, = traffic-filter-management=20 =C2=B7 Mutual Authentication =E2=80=93 Like I2RS requires mutual = authentication=20 =20 =C2=B7 NETCONF/NETCONF equivalent is:=20 o Client message - RPC with reply o DOTS Server: Set-up of notify channel for subscription to = server=E2=80=99s publication of datat (denoted as pub/sub in NETCONF)=20 [suggest the text]:=20 o DOTS Server status: Pub/sub push of notification status on different = stream o TLS - Heart-beat notification o Data Channel =E2=80=93 configuration of white lists, black list, = policy and filters is what NETCONF get-config, edit-config, copy-config, = delete-config =E2=80=93 was created to do this o RESTCONF =E2=80=93 Get , post, pathc, query,=20 =20 Status : duplicate of NETCONF/RESTCONF work with different data model=20 =20 2) draft-reddy-dots-signal-channel-02 =C2=B7 Mitigation Requests: POST, DELETE, GET, PUT=20 =C2=B7 Data Contents of mitigation policy [sent by client]=20 o PUT: (policy-id, target-ip, target-port, target-protocol, FQDN, URI, = alias, lifetime)=20 o Delete: (Policy-id)=20 =C2=B7 Client sends: GET: Dots-Signal, policy-id [0 means all] = (registration)=20 =C2=B7 Server responses:=20 o Notification #1 (current state: mitigation in progress)=20 o Notification #2 (mitigation complete)=20 o Notification #3 (token stopped0 =20 RESTCONF equivalent=20 =C2=B7 PUT or DELETE for policy lists=20 =C2=B7 Notification set-up=20 =C2=B7 Channel support =E2=80=93 heart beats, error loss ratio=20 =20 Status: Duplicate of RESTCONF work with different data model=20 =20 =20 3) draft-reddy-dots-data-channel=20 =20 What data:=20 Provisioning policies: (policy-id, alias, traffic-protocol, = destination-protocol-port, destination-ip,=20 Alias1: FQDN, Alias2: URI, Alias3: E.164) =20 Filtering rules: policy-id, traffic-protocol, = source-protocol-port, destination-ip, source-ip, lifetime, dscp, traffic-rate=20 =20 I2NSF equivalents: =20 I2NSF: Data mode has already demonstrated this working at = IETF97 with=20 NETCONF/RESTCONf and a data model. =20 NETCONF/RESTCONF functionality:=20 NETCONF: Get-config, edit-config for data odel=20 RESTCONF: PUT, GET, DELETE=20 =20 Status: Already implemented in I2NSF using NETCONF/RESTCONF=20 =20 =20 4) dots-fu-dots-ipfix-extension-01=20 =20 What type of signaling: Telemetry=20 What protocol: IPFIX/PSAMP=20 What data: upstream counters, fragment statistics, response = time (server, client, session), What extension to IPFIX: =20 =C2=B7 New Flow End reason error=20 =C2=B7 New IE status for tracking to: =20 o Detect ICMP reflection attack=20 o Detect Fragment attack=20 o Detect slowloris attack=20 o Detect out-of-order packet attack=20 =20 Status: IPFIX Extended with data and error reports=20 Comment: Kudos to authors for maximizing re-use of protocols=20 =20 5) nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism =20 Why: DOTS client in different organization from DOTS server = Why automatic: Timeliness of responding to DDoS attacks Architecture:=20 Customer = (DOTS client)=20 / = Dots-server---dots-client Attack-detector=E2=80=94controller=20 |---------- = Mitigator (NSF device) =20 Groups of these are in different domain=20 =20 What is needed: confidentiality, integrity, authenticity Provisioning=20 =C2=B7 Mechanism: POST=20 =C2=B7 Data:=20 =C2=B7 Registration:=20 o Registration data: customer-name, IP version, protected zone (index, = need-alias, ipv4-cider, ipv6-address, BGP-route, SIP-URI, E164_number, = DNS), protected-port, protected-protocol, counter-measures, = tunnel-information, next-hop. Security-profile (TLS, DTLS, COAP) o White-list (name, sequence number, source-ip, destination-ip, = protocol, length, TTL, DSCP, ip_flags, tcp-flags)=20 o Black-list (name, sequence-number, source-ip, destination-ip, = source-port, destination-port, protocol, length, TTL, DSCP, ip_flags, = tcp-flags),=20 =C2=B7 Registration-response: o Data: Customer-name, customer-id, alias_of_mitigation-address = (index, string), security_profile, access-token, thresholds_bps, = thresdhold_pps, duration, capable_attack_type, registration_time, = mitigation_time)=20 =20 =C2=B7 Registration: Cancelled=20 =20 Signaling stage: =20 =C2=B7 Mitigation request Mechanism: POST =C2=B7 Mitigation request data: version, type, alert-id, = sender-id, sender-asn, mitigation-action, lifetime, max_bandwidth, = packet-header (dst_ip, alias, dst-ports, src-ips, src-ports, protocols, = tcp_flags, fragment, pkt_len, icmp_type, icmp_code, DSCP, TTL, current = throughput (bps, pps), peak_throughputs (bps, pps), average_throughputs = (bps, pps), info (attack_types, started, ongoing, severity, direction, = health), vendor (name, version, payload(offset, content, hash)=20 =C2=B7 Mitigation efficacy data: version, alert-id, send-id, = sender-asn, attack_status, health=20 =C2=B7 Mitigation termination: version, alert_id, sender_id, = sender_asn=20 =C2=B7 Heart_beat: (version, send_id, sender_asn)=20 =20 I2NSF equivalent:=20 =C2=B7 inter-cloud DDOS API =C2=B7 inter-cloud DDOS Yang Data Model=20 =C2=B7 Capability Yang data model with I2NSF interface=20 =C2=B7 RESTCONF =E2=80=93 POST, PUT, Notification service=20 =20 I2NSF uses I2RS protocol security requirements=20 =20 [draft-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements] which require: =C2=B7 Mutual authentication,=20 =C2=B7 Peer identity validation,=20 =C2=B7 confidentiality, data integrity, authentication, and replay = protection=20 =C2=B7 role-based security=20 =20 6) draft-mortensen-dots-over-udp-00=20 =20 Protocol: [draft-teague-dots-protocol]=20 What it does:=20 =C2=B7 provisioning: configuration to DOTS server via DNS SRV=20 =C2=B7 Signaling: - I=E2=80=99m being attacked/mitigation =C2=B7 Data channel: Lots of status =20 How: Is this secured?=20 =C2=B7 provisioning =E2=80=93 DOTS clients with keying material=20 o Enrollment over secure transport (private-key and certificate)=20 =C2=B7 Signaling: o DOTS over UDP =E2=80=93 [drat-rescolra-tls-dtls13]=20 =C2=A7 First insecure, then Pre-shared keys (PSKS)=20 =C2=A7 If no pre-shared keys, full DTLS handshake=20 o Messages:=20 =C2=A7 Heart-beat =E2=80=93 DOTS protocol heart beats =C2=A7 DTLS alerts can disconnect =20 =C2=B7 Data Channel =E2=80=93 TLS=20 =20 Status: =20 =C2=B7 Similar to: RESTCONF or NETCONF features (see #1)=20 o Rpc/reply=20 o Edit-config (NETCONF) or PUT or PATCH (RESTCONF) =20 =C2=B7 What is new: Keying concepts=20 =20 =20 7) draft-francois-dots-ipv6-signal-option =20 =C2=B7 What: Encode DOTS signal in IPv6 Hop-by-hop header option = (with no data)=20 =20 =C2=B7 Data: option-type, option-length, DOTS-signal attribute1, = DOTS-signal attribute2, DOTS-Signal Attribute [3] =E2=80=A6 DOTS Signal = attribute[n]=20 Attribute data: (TTL, Flag (tcp/upd), host, port, policy-id, target-ip, = target-port, target-protocol, lifetime) =C2=B7 Configuration:=20 o Set of filters over IPv6 packet headers=20 o Ratio of packets checked=20 o Timeout =C2=B7 How to process: DOTS capable router, gateway or server.=20 =20 Status: new concept of opportunistic processing of DOTS=20 =C2=B7 Means integration with router, gateway, and server in = seamless way with I2NSF, I2RS, and NETCONF/RESTCONF is necessary =20 8) draft-doron-dots-telemetry:=20 =20 =C2=B7 Protocol: ready-dots-signaling-channel, = nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism =20 =C2=B7 Pre-mitigation data: baseline total traffic (pps, bps), = total attack traffic volume (pps, bps), attack details (vendor, version, = attack-id, attack-name, attack-severity, extension), total pipe = capacity, list of authenticated source-ids. =C2=B7 Client-to-Server =E2=80=93 Telemetry attribute: baseline = total traffic (pps, bps), total attack traffic volume (pps, bps), = Mitigation efficacy factor (clean traffic/normal traffic), attack = details (vendor, version, attack-id, attack-name, attack-severity, = extension=20 =C2=B7 Server to client =E2=80=93 Telemetry attribute: Signal = counter measure=20 =20 Comparison with NM/OPS: =C2=B7 Telemetry =E2=80=93 can be done with IPFIX or = Publication/Subscription streams from NETCONF and RESTCONF.=20 =C2=B7 Pre-mitigation data, Client-server Telemetry attribute, and = Server to Client =E2=80=93 can be replaced by a data model=20 =20 9) draft-andreasen-dots-info-data-model =E2=80=93 Distributed DOS = Open-Threat signaling IM and DM=20 =20 =C2=B7 Protocol: New protocol o Signal Channel: Open/Close/Redirect signal channel, Request status, = Status update, Request Mitigation, Stop mitigation=20 o Data Channel: Open/Close/Redirect data channel, Send Data=20 o Information Elements=20 =C2=A7 Protocol version, attack target, Agent-ID =C2=A7 Blacklist, whitelist, =C2=A7 Attack telemetry =C2=A7 Mitigator feedback, Mitigation efficacy, Mitigation scope, = Mitigation Scope Conflict, Mitigation duration=20 =C2=A7 Resource group alias =C2=A7 Peer health=20 =C2=A7 Filters =C2=A7 Filter-actions=20 =C2=A7 Acceptable signal lossinesss =C2=A7 Heartbeat interval=20 =C2=A7 Extension=20 =20 Comparison with NETCONF/RESTCONF=20 o Signal channel =C2=A7 Can use rpc/rpc-reply to enact with action of signal channel=20 =C2=A7 Request mitigation/ Stop mitigation =E2=80=93 is new feature, = but it can be implemented as rpc =E2=80=93 since rpc/rpc-reply operates = as new function=20 o Data channel =C2=A7 Configuration of protocol, blacklist, whitelist, filters = filter-action, acceptable lossiness, heartbeat interval =E2=80=93 is = normal work for NETCONF/RESTCONF based on a data model,=20 =C2=A7 Attack Telemetry =E2=80=93 is a normal part of the = publication/subscription service =C2=A7 Heart-beat is current in TLS for RESTCONF, but an application = heartbeat could be added. =20 =20 Status: All of the features point to NETCONF or RESTCONF with specific = data protocol. IPFIX could also be used for telemetry. =20 =20 What=E2=80=99s new: Mitigator is new, but the rpc/rpc-reply in RESTCONF = or NETCONF should be able to provide this.=20 =20 =20 =20 10) strong identities [draft-moskowitz-dots-identities]=20 =20 Purpose: Define 2 forms of strong identities=20 o Form 1: X.509 LDevID =E2=80=93 defined in 802.1AR=20 =C2=A7 DOTS mitigation provider has PKI to issue LDevID certificates to = customer=20 =C2=A7 Can be used by Netconf-zerotouch=20 o Form 2: Raw public key: =20 =C2=A7 Type 1: HIP [RFC7401] with HIP DNS Extension [RFC8005] to = assert its HI to DOTS mitigation provider and use HIP to prove ownership = =C2=A7 Type 2: Use raw key defined in RFC7250, and use DANE [RFC6698] = to validate TLS key=20 Problem space:=20 o Context: business relationship between customer and DDoS mitigation = provider=20 =C2=A7 Type: long lived over persistent session.=20 =C2=A7 Can have trust identity from requesting provider back to attack = customer.=20 o Scope of trust:=20 =C2=A7 Web PKI has trust leakage challenge=20 =C2=A7 How can you assert trust =C2=B7 Managing trust=20 o 802.1AR =E2=80=93 type types of certificate:=20 =C2=B7 IDevID =E2=80=93 installed in device (by signed by = manufacturer=E2=80=99s CA) =C2=B7 LDevid =E2=80=93 (locally significant Secure Device = Identifier) =E2=80=93 signed by PKI appropriate to use. =20 =C2=A7 [ietf-netconf-zerotouch] =E2=80=93 uses trusted LDevID based on = owner certification (IDevID)=20 o Raw public key: hierarchical HIP can provides infrastructure of Raw = Public Keys=20 =20 Status: =C2=B7 Strong trusted identities needed by NM/OPS as well as DOTS =C2=B7 ietf-netconf-zerotouch uses 802.1AR Ldevid =20 [Editorial: Bob states that zerotouch does not say LDevID =E2=80=93 so = we need to work on this point]=20 =C2=B7 2nd approach is Raw public keys + Hierarchical HIP =20 [Bob states: For constrained or mobile device within the architecture]=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0197_01D24032.ABA44E20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Tiru:

 

I=E2=80=99m digging into the COAP protocol as it seems to really fit = this constrained environment.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Is there any drafts on = applying this to DOTS?

 

Sue

 

From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)
Sent: = Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:08 AM
To: Susan Hares; = dots@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dots] FW: Why is DOTS not using = NETCONF/RESTCONF for management = functions

 

COAP not only runs on UDP but also on TCP = http= s://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-05, DOTS = signaling channel needs a protocol that can run over both UDP and TCP, = compact message sizes, secure and should be able to successfully = communicate with the DOTS server in constrained environment and run on = devices constrained because of DDOS attacks.

 

DOTS signaling channel can be used both = during peace time (e.g. negotiate session signal configuration and = during attack time (e.g. to request DDOS mitigation). =

 

You may want to look into the requirements = for DOTS signal channel in http= s://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-requirements-03.

 

-Tiru

 

From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, = 2016 4:02 PM
To: dots@ietf.org
Cc: shares@ndzh.com
Subject: = [Dots] FW: Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management = functions

 

 

My question: Why is DOTS, SCAM, SECEVENT not using the same = mechanisms for events, configuration control and telemetry data as = NM/OPS with their own data models?

=C2=B7       This email walks through the DOTS drafts indicating = which of the NM/OPS services could be used, and what data is being = passed.

=C2=B7       What I found is that 95% of work is covered by NM/OPS = with data models. 

 

This email is a description of this problem.  I = will be submitting a draft regarding this point.

 

Sue

 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 

The DOTS workgroup has defined three main messaging models: 

 

  • Actionable Event Alerting

=E2=97=A6     Called =E2=80=98Signaling=E2=80=99 in the workgroup = =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m being attacked=E2=80=9D =

  • Configuration Control

=E2=97=A6     Called =E2=80=98Bulk Data=E2=80=99 in the workgroup =

  • Telemetry information

=E2=97=A6     Traffic  volumes, pipe capacity, mitigation = efficacy, attack details

 

IETF=E2=80=99s Network Management and Operations = (NM/OPS) group has created similar mechanisms for sending events, = configuration control, and telemetry which are data-model driven.  = The IETF NM/OPS group use Yang to define these data models.  The = data models can either support network configuration or configuration of = security policy.   The protocols used by NM/OPS for events, = publication of bulk data, and configuration are NETCONF and = RESTCCONF.   IPFIX sends telemetry information. =

 

 

NETCONF runs over TLS over TCP.  RESTCONF = runs over HTTP 1.1 over TLS with X.509v3 certificates.  IPFIX runs = over TLS and DTLS (with replay protection and anti-DOS stateless cookie = mechanism).    NETCONF and RESTCONF can be encoded with = XML data and JSON data.   RESTCONF MAY also be run over HTTP/2 = or QUIC (work being done in the draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notify = drafts].   [draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notify] =E2=80=93 = indicates there can be TLS heartbeat used for NETCONF/RESTCONF = notifications.  If the desire is to send the NETCONF/RESTCONF over = google proto-bufs, other NM/OPS are considering this as well. = RESTCONF and NETCONF meta data is encoded in JSON or = XML.  RESTCONF has message caching, event streams, and the ability = to subscribe to event notifications.  I2RS protocol extension to = NETCONF require mutual authentication (RFC7589). 

 

The ODL open software supports NETCONF and RESTCONF with = these features.  Cisco provides a CONFD software set (free for = prototyping) that also support NETCONF/RESTCONF. =

 

My question: Why is DOTS, SCAM, SECEVENT not using the same = mechanisms for events, configuration control and telemetry data as = NM/OPS with their own data models?

=C2=B7       This email walks through the DOTS drafts indicating = which of the NM/OPS services could be used, and what data is being = passed.

=C2=B7       What I found is that 95% of work is covered by NM/OPS = with data models. 

 

Why Do I Ask this question:  I2NSF is charter to provide management for = network security functions. 

=C2=B7       I2SNF is building off of the NETCONF/RESTCONF = models.  It is important to know why DOTS is not using NM/OPS = protocols + data models so the I2NSF and DOTS can cohabitate in the same = security architecture.   

 

High-level details: =

=C2=B7       DOTS can be replaced by:

=C2=B7       NM/OPS - I2NSF using NETCONF or RESTCONF or IPFFIX =

=C2=B7       Can do bulk data channel and telemetry by just adding = data model

=C2=B7       Can do mitigate start/stop by using NETCONF/RESTCONF rpc = mechanism

=C2=B7       Strong identities using 802.1AR (LDevID) used by = ietf-netconf-zerotouch

           &nbs= p;            = ; [Bob notes that this may not be sufficiently secure for the DOTS = environment.]

=C2=B7       = Heart-beats via the TLS protocol (or TLS

=C2=B7       Publication of events streams for  telemetry =

=C2=B7       Publication of  notification stream for key events =

 

=C2=B7       I2NSF has defined  data models and uses NETCONF = /RESTCONF

o   registration interfaces

o   Capability data model =E2=80=93 with all the mitigation = features

o   Management Interface between security controller and = network security functions (NSF) =E2=80=93 firewalls, IPS/IDS, = mitigation services,

o   Management interface between user and security = controller.

 

=C2=B7        I2NSF brings along the work from I2RS that extends = Netconf and RESTCONF to have higher levels of security,  mutual = authentication,  confidentiality, and data integrity.   =

o   I2RS extensions may create a binary encoding of NETCONF = and RESTCONF packets to increase speed.  CBOR may be a good choice = [Sue=E2=80=99s note: I need to double check this point.]

o   I2RS upcoming work may use binary encoding or =  protobufs. 

 

=C2=B7       I2NSF approach has fast implementation track =E2=80=93 = 4-5 student project for mitigation of attacks via firewall, DPI, and = VoiP filtering accomplished with ODL Software on linux. =

 

 

What is different in DOTS work  =

=C2=B7       Use of IPv6 header option =E2=80=93 to get opportunistic = security  

Application heart-beats [Sue=E2=80=99s editorial note: Bob thinks = I need more comments].

=C2=B7       Use of google protocol buffers

=C2=B7       Modified transport =E2=80=93 unclear exactly why CoAP or = other protocols.


CoAP is UDP and Binary = REST.

Sue  


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 

Summary of DOTS Protocols and Models =

 

draft-teague-dots-protocol-00- two types of messages: =

=C2=B7       Signaling  data:

o   Client Message:  sequence number (current, last), ping = time, mitigation-lists (active, requested, withdrawn) , session-config = (loss-limit, lifetime, heart-beat interval) , extensions =

o   Client Request =E2=80=93 sends (event ID, mitigation-requested, scope, = lifetime) 

o   DOTS Server: Server message:  sequence-number (current, last), = request-heart-bit,  request-error, message-redirect (IPv4/IPV6) = redirect target (port), MTU limit

o   DOTS Server Status message (event-id, mitigation-enable, drops (bytes_dropped, = bps_dropped, pkts_dropped, pps_dropped), whitelist[n], filter-list[n] =

 

=C2=B7       Data channel: Send white-list, black-list, configuration, = traffic-filter-management

=C2=B7       Mutual Authentication =E2=80=93 Like I2RS requires mutual authentication =

 

=C2=B7       NETCONF/NETCONF equivalent is: =

o   Client message - RPC with reply

o   DOTS Server: Set-up of notify channel for subscription = to server=E2=80=99s publication of datat (denoted as pub/sub in = NETCONF)

           &nbs= p;            = ;  [suggest the text]:

o   DOTS Server status: Pub/sub push of notification status = on different stream

o   TLS - Heart-beat notification

o   Data Channel =E2=80=93 configuration of white lists, = black list, policy and filters is what NETCONF get-config, edit-config, = copy-config, delete-config =E2=80=93 was created to do = this

o   RESTCONF =E2=80=93 Get , post, pathc, query, =

 

  Status : duplicate of NETCONF/RESTCONF work with different data = model

 

2) = draft-reddy-dots-signal-channel-02

=C2=B7       Mitigation Requests:  POST, DELETE, GET, PUT =

=C2=B7       Data Contents of mitigation policy  [sent by client]

o   PUT: (policy-id, target-ip, target-port, = target-protocol, FQDN, URI, alias, lifetime)

o   Delete: (Policy-id)

=C2=B7       Client sends: GET: Dots-Signal, policy-id [0 means all]  = (registration)

=C2=B7       Server responses:

o   Notification #1 (current state: mitigation in progress) =

o   Notification #2 (mitigation complete) =

o   Notification #3 (token stopped0

 

     RESTCONF equivalent =

=C2=B7       PUT or DELETE for policy lists

=C2=B7        Notification set-up

=C2=B7       Channel support =E2=80=93 heart beats, error loss ratio =

 

Status: Duplicate of RESTCONF work with different data model =

 

 

3) draft-reddy-dots-data-channel =

      

      What data: =

        Provision= ing policies:  (policy-id, alias, traffic-protocol, = destination-protocol-port, destination-ip,

         &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;     Alias1: FQDN, Alias2: URI,  = Alias3:  E.164)

 

         Fil= tering rules:  policy-id, traffic-protocol, source-protocol-port, = destination-ip, source-ip, lifetime,

         &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = dscp, traffic-rate

  

         = I2NSF equivalents:         =

         = I2NSF: Data mode has already demonstrated this working at IETF97 = with

NETCONF/RESTCONf and a data = model.

 

          = NETCONF/RESTCONF functionality:

         &nb= sp;NETCONF: Get-config, edit-config for data odel =

         &nb= sp;RESTCONF:  PUT, GET, DELETE

   

   Status: Already = implemented in I2NSF using NETCONF/RESTCONF

 

 

4) dots-fu-dots-ipfix-extension-01 =

 

         &nb= sp;  What type of signaling:  Telemetry =

         &nb= sp;  What protocol:  IPFIX/PSAMP =

         &nb= sp;  What data: upstream counters, fragment statistics, = response time (server, client, session),

         &nb= sp;  What extension to IPFIX: 

=C2=B7       New Flow End reason error

=C2=B7       New IE status for tracking  to:  =

o   Detect ICMP reflection attack

o   Detect Fragment attack

o   Detect slowloris attack

o   Detect out-of-order packet attack =

 

Status:  IPFIX Extended with data and error reports =

Comment: Kudos to authors for maximizing re-use of protocols =

 

5) = nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism

 

         &nb= sp;  Why:  DOTS client in different organization from = DOTS server

         &nb= sp;   Why automatic:  Timeliness of responding to = DDoS attacks

         &nb= sp;  Architecture:

         &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;  Customer (DOTS client)

         &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;        /<= /p>

         &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =           = Dots-server---dots-client

         &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;  Attack-detector=E2=80=94controller

         &nb= sp;  =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;         |---------- = ; Mitigator (NSF device)

 

         &nb= sp;    Groups of these are in different domain =

 

What is needed:  confidentiality, integrity, = authenticity

         &nb= sp;    Provisioning

=C2=B7       Mechanism: POST

=C2=B7       Data:

=C2=B7       Registration:

o   Registration data: customer-name, IP version, protected = zone (index, need-alias, ipv4-cider, ipv6-address, BGP-route, SIP-URI, = E164_number, DNS), protected-port, protected-protocol, counter-measures, = tunnel-information, next-hop. Security-profile (TLS, DTLS, = COAP)

o   White-list (name, sequence number, source-ip, = destination-ip, protocol, length, TTL, DSCP, ip_flags, tcp-flags) =

o   Black-list (name, sequence-number, source-ip, = destination-ip, source-port, destination-port, protocol, length, TTL, = DSCP, ip_flags, tcp-flags),

=C2=B7       Registration-response:

o   Data: Customer-name, customer-id, = alias_of_mitigation-address (index, string), security_profile, = access-token, thresholds_bps, thresdhold_pps, duration, = capable_attack_type, registration_time, mitigation_time) =

 

=C2=B7       Registration: Cancelled

 

Signaling stage: 

=C2=B7       Mitigation request Mechanism: = POST

=C2=B7       Mitigation request data: version, type, alert-id, = sender-id, sender-asn, mitigation-action, lifetime, max_bandwidth, = packet-header (dst_ip, alias, dst-ports, src-ips, src-ports, protocols, = tcp_flags,  fragment, pkt_len, icmp_type, icmp_code, DSCP, TTL, = current throughput (bps, pps), peak_throughputs (bps, pps), = average_throughputs (bps, pps), info (attack_types, started, ongoing, = severity, direction, health), vendor (name, version, payload(offset, = content, hash)

=C2=B7       Mitigation efficacy data:  version, alert-id, = send-id, sender-asn, attack_status, health

=C2=B7       Mitigation termination:  version, alert_id, = sender_id, sender_asn

=C2=B7       Heart_beat: (version, send_id, sender_asn) =

 

         &nb= sp;  I2NSF equivalent:

=C2=B7       inter-cloud DDOS API

=C2=B7        inter-cloud DDOS Yang Data Model =

=C2=B7       Capability Yang data model with I2NSF interface =

=C2=B7       RESTCONF =E2=80=93 POST, PUT, Notification service =

 

I2NSF uses I2RS protocol security requirements =

 

         &nb= sp;  [draft-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements] which = require:

=C2=B7       Mutual authentication,

=C2=B7       Peer identity validation,

=C2=B7       confidentiality, data integrity, authentication, and = replay protection

=C2=B7       role-based security

 

 6) draft-mortensen-dots-over-udp-00 =

 

Protocol: [draft-teague-dots-protocol] =

What it does:

=C2=B7       provisioning: configuration to DOTS server via DNS SRV =

=C2=B7       Signaling:  - I=E2=80=99m being = attacked/mitigation

=C2=B7       Data channel: Lots of status

 

How: Is this secured?

=C2=B7       provisioning =E2=80=93 DOTS clients with keying material =

o   Enrollment over secure transport (private-key and = certificate)

=C2=B7       Signaling:

o   DOTS over UDP =E2=80=93 [drat-rescolra-tls-dtls13] =

=C2=A7  = First insecure, then Pre-shared keys (PSKS) =

=C2=A7  = If no pre-shared keys, full DTLS handshake =

o   Messages:

=C2=A7  = Heart-beat =E2=80=93 DOTS protocol heart = beats

=C2=A7  DTLS alerts can disconnect  

=C2=B7       Data Channel =E2=80=93 TLS

 

Status: 

=C2=B7       Similar to: RESTCONF or NETCONF features (see #1) =

o   Rpc/reply

o   Edit-config (NETCONF) or PUT or PATCH (RESTCONF) =  

=C2=B7       What is new: Keying concepts

 

 

7) = draft-francois-dots-ipv6-signal-option  =

=C2=B7       What: Encode DOTS signal in IPv6 Hop-by-hop header = option (with no data)

 

=C2=B7       Data:  option-type, option-length, DOTS-signal = attribute1, DOTS-signal attribute2, DOTS-Signal Attribute [3]  = =E2=80=A6 DOTS Signal attribute[n]

Attribute data:  (TTL, Flag (tcp/upd), host, port, = policy-id, target-ip, target-port, target-protocol, = lifetime)

=C2=B7       Configuration:

o   Set of filters over IPv6 packet headers =

o   Ratio of packets checked

o   Timeout

=C2=B7       How to process: DOTS capable router, gateway or server. =

 

Status:  new concept of opportunistic processing of = DOTS

=C2=B7       Means integration with router, gateway, and server in = seamless way with I2NSF, I2RS, and NETCONF/RESTCONF is = necessary

 

8) draft-doron-dots-telemetry:

 

=C2=B7       Protocol:  ready-dots-signaling-channel, = nishizuka-dots-inter-domain-mechanism

 

=C2=B7       = Pre-mitigation data:   baseline total traffic (pps, bps), total = attack traffic volume (pps, bps), attack details (vendor, version, = attack-id, attack-name, attack-severity, extension), total pipe = capacity,  list of authenticated source-ids.

=C2=B7       = Client-to-Server =E2=80=93 Telemetry = attribute:  baseline total traffic (pps, bps), = total attack traffic volume (pps, bps), Mitigation efficacy factor = (clean traffic/normal traffic), attack details (vendor, version, = attack-id, attack-name, attack-severity, extension 

=C2=B7       Server to client =E2=80=93 Telemetry attribute: = Signal counter measure

 

Comparison with NM/OPS:

=C2=B7       Telemetry =E2=80=93 can be done with IPFIX or = Publication/Subscription streams from NETCONF and RESTCONF. =

=C2=B7       Pre-mitigation data, Client-server Telemetry attribute, = and Server to Client =E2=80=93 can be replaced by a data model =

 

9) draft-andreasen-dots-info-data-model =E2=80=93 = Distributed DOS Open-Threat signaling IM and DM

 

=C2=B7       Protocol:  New protocol

o   Signal Channel:  Open/Close/Redirect signal channel, Request = status, Status update, Request Mitigation, Stop mitigation =

o   Data Channel:  Open/Close/Redirect data channel, Send Data =

o   Information Elements

=C2=A7  = Protocol version, attack target, = Agent-ID

=C2=A7  = Blacklist, whitelist,

=C2=A7  = Attack telemetry

=C2=A7  = Mitigator feedback, Mitigation efficacy, Mitigation = scope, Mitigation Scope Conflict, Mitigation duration =

=C2=A7  = Resource group alias

=C2=A7  = Peer health

=C2=A7  = Filters

=C2=A7  = Filter-actions

=C2=A7  = Acceptable signal lossinesss

=C2=A7  = Heartbeat interval

=C2=A7  = Extension

 

Comparison with NETCONF/RESTCONF =

o   Signal channel

=C2=A7  = Can use rpc/rpc-reply to enact with action of signal = channel

=C2=A7  = Request mitigation/ Stop mitigation =E2=80=93 is new = feature, but it can be implemented as rpc =E2=80=93 since rpc/rpc-reply = operates as new function

o   Data channel

=C2=A7  = Configuration of protocol, blacklist, whitelist, filters filter-action, = acceptable lossiness, heartbeat interval =E2=80=93 is normal work for = NETCONF/RESTCONF based on a data model,

=C2=A7  = Attack Telemetry =E2=80=93 is a normal part of the = publication/subscription service

=C2=A7  = Heart-beat is current in TLS for RESTCONF, but an = application heartbeat could be added. 

 

Status: All of the features point to NETCONF or RESTCONF with = specific data protocol.  IPFIX could also be used for = telemetry. 

 

What=E2=80=99s new:  Mitigator is new, but the = rpc/rpc-reply in RESTCONF or NETCONF should be able to provide this. =

 

 

 

10) strong identities = [draft-moskowitz-dots-identities]

 

         &nb= sp;  Purpose: Define 2 forms of strong identities =

o   Form 1: X.509 LDevID =E2=80=93 defined in 802.1AR =

=C2=A7  DOTS mitigation provider has PKI to issue LDevID = certificates to customer

=C2=A7  Can be used by Netconf-zerotouch =

o   Form 2: Raw public key: 

=C2=A7  Type 1:  HIP [RFC7401] with HIP DNS Extension = [RFC8005] to assert its HI to DOTS mitigation provider and use HIP to = prove ownership

=C2=A7  Type 2:  Use raw key defined in RFC7250, and use = DANE [RFC6698] to validate TLS key

Problem space:

o   Context:  business relationship between customer = and DDoS mitigation provider

=C2=A7  Type: long lived over persistent session. =

=C2=A7  Can have trust identity from requesting provider back = to attack customer.

o   Scope of trust:

=C2=A7  Web PKI has trust leakage challenge

=C2=A7  How can you assert trust

=C2=B7       Managing trust

o   802.1AR =E2=80=93 type types of certificate: =

=C2=B7       IDevID =E2=80=93 installed in device (by signed by = manufacturer=E2=80=99s CA)

=C2=B7       LDevid =E2=80=93 (locally significant Secure Device = Identifier) =E2=80=93 signed by PKI appropriate to use.  =

=C2=A7  [ietf-netconf-zerotouch] =E2=80=93 uses trusted LDevID = based on owner certification (IDevID)

o   Raw public key:  hierarchical HIP can provides = infrastructure of Raw Public Keys

 

Status:

=C2=B7       Strong trusted identities needed by NM/OPS as well as = DOTS

=C2=B7        ietf-netconf-zerotouch uses 802.1AR  Ldevid =  

[Editorial: Bob states that zerotouch does = not say LDevID =E2=80=93 so we need to work on this point]

=C2=B7       2nd  approach is Raw public keys + = Hierarchical HIP  

[Bob states:  For constrained or mobile device within the = architecture]

 

------=_NextPart_000_0197_01D24032.ABA44E20-- From nobody Wed Nov 16 15:00:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A0F91295AA for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:00:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.945 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.945 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VA3hJu2ryE2S for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:00:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-97-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 577C6129548 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:00:42 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=forwardok (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=31.133.152.135; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Ehud Doron'" , "'Roland Dobbins'" , "'dots'" , References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B8@marathon> <14E9BCB6-D522-4877-84E5-4589472B3CEC@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:58:00 -0500 Message-ID: <01a301d2405c$e2e541d0$a8afc570$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGv2OwqlPoXjA9vuCOYHWQVl6dXTQJItBiMAjsbVX4CMrrLPaDrU09g Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:00:44 -0000 Ehud: Can you indicate what additional features the telemetry that you propose = for DOTS needs over the telemetry provided by IPFIX?=20 Sue=20 -----Original Message----- From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ehud Doron Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 11:31 AM To: Roland Dobbins; dots; fandreas@cisco.com Cc: Ehud Doron Subject: Re: [Dots] Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 Ronald, Flemming and all Thanks for your comments.=20 I appreciate the standpoints you present in your comments, however I = really believe the DOTS WG must also look and consider others views of the challenges DOTS has with regards to DOTS telemetry. =20 No doubt that for the world of DDoS services the "security visibility" = is a major concern to both the anti-DoS service providers and consumers. In = all cases where the DOTS Client will be implemented in an organizations with = a sustainable SOC/NOC teams, the ability to have "customer portal" with visibility into the on-going attacks is a critical part of the service. Likewise, anti-DoS service providers need visibility into their = customers view on the on-going attacks and other sort of views relates to the = service and its fulfillments. These are critical parts of the service.=20 Getting deeper, having comprehensive telemetry about the ongoing attacks will improve the overall mitigation accomplished, in terms of time to mitigate, accuracy, false-negative, false-positive, and other measures. = We must keep in our minds the value gained here. =20 I see all these as a major points and really want to get your view on = that, as well as the view of others at the WG. Obviously, I agree with your points that there are many cases where telemetry is with less relevance, mainly since DOTS agents will be integrated in " radically different paradigms, capabilities, and 'worldviews'...." (which for my opinion is the right architecture). = Having say all that, we must consider environments where DOTS Client has = DoS/DDoS detection and mitigation capabilities and can practically signal = valuable telemetry. These are definitely not rear use cases that must be = considered as well.=20 For my mind, after we will get to a consensus about WG view on the needs = for telemetry, we can define the best way to standardize it (in which doc = and how) and also consider the right time to do. Then we can define the = baseline set of telemetry we believe are adequate, or the bare minimum, to standardize. =20 I am looking forward to continue this discussion with you and the entire = the WG. Please see also my comments inline.=20 Best wishes, Ehud Doron | =A0Senior Architect, Radware CTO office | M: = +972-54-7575503 | T:=A0+972-72-3917120 -----Original Message----- From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 11:02 AM To: dots Subject: Re: [Dots] Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 On 14 Nov 2016, at 15:14, Ehud Doron wrote: > Essentially we would like to build a "Telemetry" extension standard to = > the basic DOTS protocol, and this document would define that. This may make sense at some future date; initially, since we're dealing = with devices/software/systems which have radically different paradigms, capabilities, and 'worldviews', the initial focus of DOTS should be on signaling and status only, as the ins are universal functions which are readily understood by most any type of node/service/application which = could participate in DOTS. [ED] See my view in the body of the mail. > Keeping the telemetry specification in a separate draft is good=20 > approach for future extensibility. > For this goal, we as the DOTS WG first need to better understand (and=20 > agree in the group) what we see as baseline mandatory capabilities=20 > other DOTS draft should benefit the DOTS Telemetry. We've already held extensive discussions on this topic; initially, we = need a minimum viable capability to allow signaling and status information to = be passed between DOTS participants. [ED] I was not part of this discussions, sorry for that. For my mind, we need to truly define (or re-define...) the needs for DOTS Telemetry for = the actual users (SP, MSSP, Enterprises, carrier and so on) of DOTS, and = also the baseline set of this telemetry.=20 > (1) Is there an undocumented telemetry use case that needs to be added = > to the use case WG document? Section 4.0 suggests that. > Yes. We want to DOTS use cases, the existing and maybe new=20 > others, to be enriched with Telemetry related items. This can come at a later state, if the group believes it to be = important. It's sub-optimal to duplicate the work done on IPFIX, I2NSF, I2RS, et.=20 al. in DOTS. By leaving mitigation technique specifics and telemetry specifics to one side, we can concentrate on signaling and status, which = is all that's actually required for successful inter- and intra-domain DOTS-enabled DDoS mitigation assistance and provisioning. [ED] Agree, we shouldn't duplicate any work done at IPFIX, I2NSF. It's important to get to an initial operating capability with the = requisite baseline capability before we expand the scope of DOTS itself, IMHO. [ED] Agree, we just need to define and get to the mutual understanding = about the " baseline capability" in term of telemetry. Mainly for the users = and customers of the actual anti-DoS service. =20 ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins _______________________________________________ Dots mailing list Dots@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots _______________________________________________ Dots mailing list Dots@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Wed Nov 16 15:00:49 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0128129548 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:00:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:00:44 -0000 On 17 Nov 2016, at 5:46, Susan Hares wrote: > NETCONF goes from centralized mgr to device on edge of network. It shouldn't be doing it in-band in the production data-plan network. This is Network Infrastructure Security 101-type stuff. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Wed Nov 16 15:03:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 992E1129469 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:03:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.022 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.022 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wa4UpiVW_8m8 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:03:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM01-BN3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn3nam01on0120.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.33.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A4E1129432 for ; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:03:17 -0000 On 17 Nov 2016, at 5:58, Teague, Nik wrote: > I think the question for me is not why aren’t we considering NETCONF > but why should we? - and how does it align with the requirements and > architecture drafts? Concur - what we need is a lightweight, survivable signaling mechanism which is abstracted away from configuration semantics, which differ wildly. If we thought NETCONF and the like were suitable for this application, we would've latched onto them. We didn't for a reason, as you rightly note. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Wed Nov 16 15:04:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3BE7129548 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:04:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.022 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.022 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wfree-E0dU3f for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:04:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM03-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-co1nam03on0117.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.40.117]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80423129432 for ; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:04:58 -0000 On 16 Nov 2016, at 23:30, Ehud Doron wrote: > Getting deeper, having comprehensive telemetry about the ongoing > attacks will improve the overall mitigation accomplished, There's already lots of telemetry out there that's used every day to detect, classify, and traceback DDoS attacks. It is orthogonal to signaling for DDoS mitigation assistance and providing status updates regarding same. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Wed Nov 16 15:05:06 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9147C1295AA for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:05:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.945 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.945 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EyP_MHJ-wncG for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:05:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-97-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D2D61295D5 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:05:02 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=forwardok (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=31.133.152.135; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Teague, Nik'" , "'Roland Dobbins'" , References: <008f01d23f2b$277490e0$765db2a0$@ndzh.com> <00a801d23f2b$8a283480$9e789d80$@ndzh.com> <018501d2405a$3a3853d0$aea8fb70$@ndzh.com> <018701d2405b$54497eb0$fcdc7c10$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 18:02:28 -0500 Message-ID: <01a501d2405d$81f06fc0$85d14f40$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJsYSNI9YQbUtBqHoLL9S6IwUEr0AF817OmAngyQvsCRKtuJAMMcLHAApR0qP8BdMOXYp89fK7g Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:05:03 -0000 Nik: Your last question - is what I was trying to learn from reading all the = documents. What exactly are your use cases and architecture. It seems = to vary. =20 As to deployments... all newly defined protocols need to get = implementations in products. Do you have products with DOTS protocols = already? If so, what are the implementation reports on the protocol? = That's useful information in any discussion.=20 ONOS, ODL, and OPNFV has public sources for NETCONF/RESTCONF. Many = vendors sell NETCONF/RESTCONF. That's a large base of code to download = or buy from any vendor to integrate into your code.=20 Cheerily, Sue=20 -----Original Message----- From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Teague, Nik Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 5:58 PM To: Susan Hares; 'Roland Dobbins'; dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for = management functions On 17/11/2016, 07:46, "Dots on behalf of Susan Hares" = wrote: NETCONF goes from centralized mgr to device on edge of network. = DDOS in network. I have an OOB management vrf on my network but I don=E2=80=99t have one = that crosses boundaries or the internet to my upstreams or cloud = mitigation provider (in which the path is congested). >From a tooling perspective=E2=80=A6 I have 15000 network devices and = only 60 support NETCONF=E2=80=A6 =20 I think the question for me is not why aren=E2=80=99t we considering = NETCONF but why should we? - and how does it align with the requirements = and architecture drafts? Thanks, -Nik _______________________________________________ Dots mailing list Dots@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Wed Nov 16 15:07:41 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46797129548 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:07:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.022 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.022 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RMj1GFHuiQE2 for ; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:07:40 -0000 On 17 Nov 2016, at 6:02, Susan Hares wrote: > Do you have products with DOTS protocols already? Since the protocol(s) has/have yet to be defined, no. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Wed Nov 16 15:32:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33C6C1294E2 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:31:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.398 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sT1Okv-aU7ei for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:31:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.verisign.com (mail1.verisign.com [72.13.63.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 537141294D7 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:31:57 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.31,650,1473120000"; d="scan'208";a="616219" IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?9a23=3ACwT82hWevt+O9VGkhijn/q6/JsvV8LGtZVwlr6E/?= =?us-ascii?q?grcLSJyIuqrYbRyDt8tkgFKBZ4jH8fUM07OQ6PG7HzVdqs/a+Fk5M7V0Hycfjs?= =?us-ascii?q?sXmwFySOWkMmbcaMDQUiohAc5ZX0Vk9XzoeWJcGcL5ekGA6ibqtW1aFRrwLxd6?= =?us-ascii?q?KfroEYDOkcu3y/qy+5rOaAlUmTaxe71/IRG4oAnLq8UbgYRuJrs/xxDUvnZGZu?= =?us-ascii?q?NayH9yK1mOhRj8/MCw/JBi8yRUpf0s8tNLXLv5caolU7FWFSwqPG8p6sLlsxnD?= =?us-ascii?q?VhaP6WAHUmoKiBpIAhPK4w/8U5zsryb1rOt92C2dPc3rUbA5XCmp4ql3RBP0ji?= =?us-ascii?q?oMKiU0+3/LhMNukK1boQqhpx1hzI7SfIGVL+d1cqfEcd8HWWZNQsNdWipcCY2+?= =?us-ascii?q?coQPFfIMM+ZGoYfgu1sAoxiwBQeuC+zhyz9HmnD40qIh3uQ9Cg7G2RAsE84UvX?= =?us-ascii?q?nWqtj+KaccUfqyzKnN1TjPYe1Y1inn54jHbxAuv+mAVq9of8rQykkjGR7Og1KW?= =?us-ascii?q?qYz5ITyazOsNs3WF4Od7S+KglXQnqwBqojiuyccsjJPFiZ4SylDB7Ch0xps+K9?= =?us-ascii?q?6gSENjfNKoDIFcuzyYOoZ4WM8uXmFltSggxrEYtpO2czAGxIk7yxLFdvCKcYaF?= =?us-ascii?q?7gj+WOuRPzt0nn1odbSijBio60eg0PfzVsys3VZPqSpKj8fDu2gW1xzW9siHUv?= =?us-ascii?q?x9/lq92TqX1wDc9OVEIUcsmKXAMZ4hxKM8lp4csETGBCD2mUH2jKiLdkU45uSk?= =?us-ascii?q?9v7rYqv4qZ+GNo90kQD+MqsomsClHes4NQ0OU3Ca+eS6yrLj4VX0TKhWgvEsj6?= =?us-ascii?q?XUsp7XKd4GqqO5DQJZyJgv5hmwAju+1dQXh3gHLFZLeBKdiIjpPknDIPbkDfih?= =?us-ascii?q?mVusnypryO7dM73/HJrNNHnDkKzgfbZy7U5Q0hY8zdda555MELEOPOrzWlPttN?= =?us-ascii?q?zfFhI2Lgu0w/r8CNhm14MRR36PAqGDPKPVq1+I6folI/OQa48NpDb9N/8l6ub0?= =?us-ascii?q?jXAknl8SZrKm3ZoRaHCjBflpOV+ZbmHrgtcbC2sKuBQxTPDygl2YTTFTf2qyX7?= =?us-ascii?q?475jwjE4KmDZ3MRpqzj7yaxyq7GIBZZ2FGClyWDXjocICECL8wb3epP9RolHQk?= =?us-ascii?q?XKKsUMd1zhGnrgLh47xrPOqS8Sod49arnpdP4Onakx162Tt+BcWbyC7HBzVukm?= =?us-ascii?q?QCTT4wx4h2u0Z60BGF3LQux7QSGdtP/NtIXxs0c5nGwKYyX9z1Rhnpf9qVRhCh?= =?us-ascii?q?WNrwUh8rSddkieMDaklgFpHqqBHAlWL+BaMYnrOWCbQq/7jdxHn+IYB2zHOQh/?= =?us-ascii?q?pptEUvXsYabT7uvaV47QWGQteRy0g=3D?= X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2G7AQCR6yxY//SZrQpeHAEBBAEBCgEBFwEBBAEBCgEBgww?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAYF3B403qWKCDoIHhiECGoI4FAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAoEHgjMaAYIbAQEEI?= =?us-ascii?q?xFVAgEIDQEECAImAgICMBUCDgIEARIbug4OgRuCKYtiAQEBAQEBBAEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BH4EJhTSBfIJdgU+CZBYXgm0tgjAFmkIBoQqNTYQKHoE+hTlyhxqBDAEBAQ?= Received: from brn1wnexcas01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com (brn1wnexcas01 [10.173.152.205]) by brn1lxmailout01.verisign.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id uAGNVt9B026163 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 16 Nov 2016 18:31:56 -0500 Received: from BRN1WNEXMBX01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([::1]) by brn1wnexcas01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 18:31:54 -0500 From: "Teague, Nik" To: Susan Hares , "'Roland Dobbins'" , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions Thread-Index: AQHSPz1JrCsFX0qvW0OaPzx3pqFGCqDciccAgAACioD///+rAIAAmhEA//9qSwCAAJ8YgA== Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:31:53 +0000 Message-ID: <3905CEB3-922F-44CE-A071-4B17C43E24E8@verisign.com> References: <008f01d23f2b$277490e0$765db2a0$@ndzh.com> <00a801d23f2b$8a283480$9e789d80$@ndzh.com> <018501d2405a$3a3853d0$aea8fb70$@ndzh.com> <018701d2405b$54497eb0$fcdc7c10$@ndzh.com> <01a501d2405d$81f06fc0$85d14f40$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <01a501d2405d$81f06fc0$85d14f40$@ndzh.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 x-originating-ip: [10.173.152.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=F+8BYs0mzhoELSAQ7tnTla5iQVmDw945LV+w1JP8VME=; b=SMayC11flsykhL0m0XJ5I+5Gb63yMoRDF0YWN2gTypLfWCzQnfUUIjJcQDT33EUcoepFJzPItJV1OdMJkAY1QMQFkk53nNZvefjIcCon5AXO0gLhMDIAryHCRtwHO/Fe/w/qI645Z/UWRQ3vpGx6aoE4BSeOwN5Pxh12Podti+U= Authentication-Results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=rdobbins@arbor.net; Received: from [10.0.1.6] (121.162.109.253) by BY1PR0101MB1030.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.160.199.155) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.734.8; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:36:42 +0000 From: Roland Dobbins To: "dots@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 06:36:25 +0700 Message-ID: <51DC2A82-B50D-4AA4-8F0F-CA5D959EDB02@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <3905CEB3-922F-44CE-A071-4B17C43E24E8@verisign.com> References: <008f01d23f2b$277490e0$765db2a0$@ndzh.com> <00a801d23f2b$8a283480$9e789d80$@ndzh.com> <018501d2405a$3a3853d0$aea8fb70$@ndzh.com> <018701d2405b$54497eb0$fcdc7c10$@ndzh.com> <01a501d2405d$81f06fc0$85d14f40$@ndzh.com> <3905CEB3-922F-44CE-A071-4B17C43E24E8@verisign.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:36:47 -0000 On 17 Nov 2016, at 6:31, Teague, Nik wrote: > There is already a degree of prior art in this area which we have been > bringing to the working group and in the case of mine and Andrew’s > draft, this is informed by our experiences – these have a lot of > proprietary implementation considerations that we wouldn’t generally > report. Good point - I should've noted this in my previous reply in this thread. There are existing implementations in this space, but they're proprietary. We want to take the lessons learned from experiences with those proprietary mechanisms and build something that's open and extensible and generalizable, and which will gain widespread adoption. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Wed Nov 16 17:24:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 673131294A6 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:24:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V0diphhnMfwt for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:24:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:de77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B7EF129477 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:24:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (dhcp-8d96.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.141.150]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D24F61F90B; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 01:24:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id BC5DA33DC; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 10:24:06 +0900 (KST) From: Michael Richardson To: Roland Dobbins In-reply-to: <56F79898-908A-42AC-A89E-E12FD4393E93@arbor.net> References: <008f01d23f2b$277490e0$765db2a0$@ndzh.com> <00a801d23f2b$8a283480$9e789d80$@ndzh.com> <018501d2405a$3a3853d0$aea8fb70$@ndzh.com> <018701d2405b$54497eb0$fcdc7c10$@ndzh.com> <56F79898-908A-42AC-A89E-E12FD4393E93@arbor.net> Comments: In-reply-to Roland Dobbins message dated "Thu, 17 Nov 2016 06:02:26 +0700." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 10:24:06 +0900 Message-ID: <13080.1479345846@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Cc: "dots@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Dots] Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 01:24:11 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Roland Dobbins wrote: >> I think the question for me is not why aren=E2=80=99t we considering= NETCONF >> but why should we? - and how does it align with the requirements and >> architecture drafts? > Concur - what we need is a lightweight, survivable signaling mechanism > which is abstracted away from configuration semantics, which differ > wildly. > If we thought NETCONF and the like were suitable for this application, > we would've latched onto them. We didn't for a reason, as you rightly > note. Can you point me towards the reason? I haven't seen any technical reasons as yet. =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJYLQa2AAoJEJVM4Vb9/EKQt1IH/R74rszmiyxwyVKZd6BVXC2R xPfKg1gOYudATVOz+Opjkzb+CxD8lBjzC5TSxYH6Nz/EsrQSwBsB6R8DJQ219soQ wZiYOKIOUmAJbmkMhJchMjTh/rLgfu/4zHWeTtq8ZwqOLf8ryPGizeQ0uD9CQWRn zhpNd2VW+7zACAm0pOXa/M36Bh74iWdQz5GLlV8CQAlk2ljduD7ImhTfpGVM/yBD iQxUoNhIe2nHRqvoogU0NuXkK9XPwa7m74U/BUwMOCpbHz/VIMB0WhZcoUBmk7eb u3Z3HZuVCwWqi4mBoWxZM05IZ9OXpfG99nc914wJuhfM8xyWhue12KyShB6u88E= =VgtC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Nov 16 17:33:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 928A6129627 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:33:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BuS8ja_mJIWy for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:33:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp102.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp102.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEA571295EB for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:33:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp5.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp5.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 0F2392541F; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 20:33:13 -0500 (EST) X-Auth-ID: bgreene@senki.org Received: by smtp5.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: bgreene-AT-senki.org) with ESMTPSA id 14724254AE; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 20:33:11 -0500 (EST) X-Sender-Id: bgreene@senki.org Received: from dhcp-870c.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-870c.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.135.12]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA) by 0.0.0.0:25 (trex/5.7.12); Wed, 16 Nov 2016 20:33:13 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_58B16CF0-4AAC-43A4-87ED-22C57BAB2197"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Barry Raveendran Greene In-Reply-To: <13080.1479345846@dooku.sandelman.ca> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 10:33:00 +0900 Message-Id: <1F1D45E6-0A63-4901-907D-86B31AF0730E@senki.org> References: <008f01d23f2b$277490e0$765db2a0$@ndzh.com> <00a801d23f2b$8a283480$9e789d80$@ndzh.com> <018501d2405a$3a3853d0$aea8fb70$@ndzh.com> <018701d2405b$54497eb0$fcdc7c10$@ndzh.com> <56F79898-908A-42AC-A89E-E12FD4393E93@arbor.net> <13080.1479345846@dooku.sandelman.ca> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: Roland Dobbins , "dots@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Dots] Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 01:33:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_58B16CF0-4AAC-43A4-87ED-22C57BAB2197 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Nov 17, 2016, at 10:24 AM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> If we thought NETCONF and the like were suitable for this = application, >> we would've latched onto them. We didn't for a reason, as you = rightly >> note. >=20 > Can you point me towards the reason? > I haven't seen any technical reasons as yet. +1 --Apple-Mail=_58B16CF0-4AAC-43A4-87ED-22C57BAB2197 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJYLQjUAAoJEFVuk3AWv0XzBb4H/A20smzepKc51KJd93mmaVSd Q383n8MJ/eGr08GfHJ7XcZDMF2u5EJuAFit5u3/YjFRiGmY0+cdhMExXU4yrI+Ka T3BtaYr9q1aVDlkecy2yrGu2vMnUkLmE4Gxj4FcBCYPLqFtLXaJQgIZnqGm7iYDe vNm///Miril0M0LNV/gfqILAtaAFk16ue+CAr3CLfPqW6QBoLUyY+pOEzePcaS+U 78ibYtz5/tU7v6ztj+R8ZC05dIfYm2Ypqj1PmfDamV+7dwjYr2YQnkzooYrj0oOz LAn2Ez5MKPB3OH/9Kcq+YLLjGDOYucKPxzdGGmkpvxdimeHqMC7uaNvOcMdkCqM= =9X4t -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_58B16CF0-4AAC-43A4-87ED-22C57BAB2197-- From nobody Wed Nov 16 17:36:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02503129855 for ; 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SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(7916002)(199003)(377454003)(24454002)(189002)(101416001)(36756003)(66066001)(122556002)(2900100001)(77096005)(3660700001)(83716003)(3280700002)(6512003)(6506003)(86362001)(82746002)(106356001)(81166006)(81156014)(87936001)(4326007)(2906002)(189998001)(93886004)(68736007)(33656002)(7736002)(305945005)(7846002)(97736004)(229853002)(110136003)(102836003)(6116002)(3846002)(105586002)(92566002)(106116001)(5660300001)(8936002)(50986999)(2950100002)(6916009)(54356999)(76176999)(104396002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR01MB1787; H:DM2PR0101MB1039.prod.exchangelabs.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: arbor.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arbor.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Nov 2016 01:35:46.5642 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 54f11205-d4aa-4809-bd36-0b542199c5b2 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR01MB1787 Archived-At: Cc: "Mortensen, Andrew" , "dots@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Dots] FW: Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 01:35:54 -0000 On Nov 17, 2016, at 7:57 AM, Susan Hares wrote: > I see the bulk transfer (configuration, data) and the telemetry as NM/OPS= applications that may run over a securely established and maintained inter= -domain connection.=20 Ideally, yes. In most cases, not. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins = From nobody Wed Nov 16 17:37:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E746B129627 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:37:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nN_cBFDVHVUA for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:37:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM03-DM3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm3nam03on0090.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.41.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BE401295C8 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:37:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=arbor.net; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=pOB7oPGvs3bz7BelMwVNpojOxlkoFWppXaV1LqNMfJ4=; b=cfsB41TumkSs69zxU2hiUiMk+O3c3oDnXXRgJQUBJqtx/OnFDBMpfflkZj7G7vQ4M6YVtjJSgidcYJaw9ijfFXJHZQok7+JLQJY+wKxOkk4BsMj2mY6KyU4eLGd4iMA2idDxEu5XToRpZcC08aZhBvBoTL66gVHqJnSgvk8gEoA= Received: from DM2PR0101MB1039.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.160.129.156) by DM2PR0101MB1037.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.160.129.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.721.10; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 01:37:40 +0000 Received: from DM2PR0101MB1039.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.160.129.156]) by DM2PR0101MB1039.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.160.129.156]) with mapi id 15.01.0721.015; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 01:37:40 +0000 From: "Dobbins, Roland" To: Michael Richardson Thread-Topic: [Dots] Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions Thread-Index: AQHSPz1E7WDpHemR2kK+VNZarlk2YaDcNfUAgAB344D//4pSAIAAAzOAgAABJwCAACeUAIAAA8uA Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 01:37:40 +0000 Message-ID: <075AC566-29CC-415C-8A5C-F6872D082E14@arbor.net> References: <008f01d23f2b$277490e0$765db2a0$@ndzh.com> <00a801d23f2b$8a283480$9e789d80$@ndzh.com> <018501d2405a$3a3853d0$aea8fb70$@ndzh.com> <018701d2405b$54497eb0$fcdc7c10$@ndzh.com> <56F79898-908A-42AC-A89E-E12FD4393E93@arbor.net>, <13080.1479345846@dooku.sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <13080.1479345846@dooku.sandelman.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=rdobbins@arbor.net; 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SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(7916002)(377454003)(24454002)(189002)(199003)(86362001)(54356999)(50986999)(87936001)(7736002)(7846002)(305945005)(122556002)(2906002)(105586002)(4326007)(36756003)(97736004)(6512003)(2950100002)(5660300001)(6506003)(93886004)(110136003)(3280700002)(68736007)(8676002)(2900100001)(102836003)(81156014)(6116002)(106116001)(558084003)(33656002)(8936002)(92566002)(101416001)(3846002)(83716003)(66066001)(229853002)(189998001)(3660700001)(81166006)(106356001)(76176999)(77096005)(82746002)(104396002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DM2PR0101MB1037; H:DM2PR0101MB1039.prod.exchangelabs.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: arbor.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arbor.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Nov 2016 01:37:40.1326 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 54f11205-d4aa-4809-bd36-0b542199c5b2 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM2PR0101MB1037 Archived-At: Cc: "dots@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Dots] Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 01:37:45 -0000 On Nov 17, 2016, at 10:24 AM, Michael Richardson wr= ote: > I haven't seen any technical reasons as yet. They've been stated and restated multiple times in this thread, and in the = list in general. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins = From nobody Wed Nov 16 18:12:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53E571294E5 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 18:12:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mti-systems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E8nz7X1ApJ7L for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 18:12:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk0-x235.google.com (mail-vk0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DCDB1129478 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 18:12:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vk0-x235.google.com with SMTP id 137so130974930vkl.0 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 18:12:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mti-systems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Q+T9BCmJqxwM1GO+S9hPclv42mp2Wru0ni0xEG1cp04=; b=wC3wo04gajk3qCxoP514mO99vmUbQs035BcTFfFg3dS+UhcXgLyTx/8vUYh7y+x7qd VbfFFtD7jgAOLHiykUWT7f0FGfd1AWB6B1ZtdBAgOlXhCSpygo5rhE4uGJ3F7xk78o2Q UUlZGFPQRn+VHc6LXXyNxybWmcqywT4XOusS7Ys+jgkrR8sgAFPeAerZxWVOB7d1za+w JRpA8R4MkCtPdRLEFGAgjLiTBOLKVWAC45BeZ8neSm8D2lKl7q3RlXEcP2h2n5YdqMPQ 6j9ZtrQy52U9TuW59uwJFa9bFJOpdSk25IMDcuiM6a5kApdGr9o0JNzaZndf7JpuU9A6 BCrA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Q+T9BCmJqxwM1GO+S9hPclv42mp2Wru0ni0xEG1cp04=; b=EG5oQk+GkYLV4YUB2HZpAR/a78iTQ1F4Kq23ltduoicn03BUHO3BBhHVkMMC9Xu4rI kcukwtyFImp8VHjLbYXONvl8B42rFQmMmAQZLUX+qNeSEbPrKywmdC0OjRVo2nc8RKl3 NJ6sTahNJfrTsLIZ4S8wte3ivcMGE18+iuUIu7xdMkQI5zLRrwjd4Lwq/+Pt1KN1SOYh lkq4LpBt5UGjo81rsOWj1vk9bw4dt6/GDlqIJLcmfLOeVflmkOF6n/XG0CNgvY0wTQaw 9qh3U1iUDnEPQl57MzXOV2obD3gY5enRJ8M0gRKRaeXsDW2bQOvU4McVxHBldAJdOrsE xkqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC032AwQnWCNdH4SDqNbiTFlMqXiQVc4Mlko/mByCy/4ORI0h0GkyCNlGz9oCqk9XJUdFHoUr2WFH7JnArw== X-Received: by 10.31.10.212 with SMTP id 203mr343100vkk.5.1479348770937; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 18:12:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.176.69.210 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 18:12:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.176.69.210 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 18:12:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1F1D45E6-0A63-4901-907D-86B31AF0730E@senki.org> References: <008f01d23f2b$277490e0$765db2a0$@ndzh.com> <00a801d23f2b$8a283480$9e789d80$@ndzh.com> <018501d2405a$3a3853d0$aea8fb70$@ndzh.com> <018701d2405b$54497eb0$fcdc7c10$@ndzh.com> <56F79898-908A-42AC-A89E-E12FD4393E93@arbor.net> <13080.1479345846@dooku.sandelman.ca> <1F1D45E6-0A63-4901-907D-86B31AF0730E@senki.org> From: Gilbert Clark Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 21:12:49 -0500 Message-ID: To: Barry Raveendran Greene Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1143b094fdc6a7054175b934 Archived-At: Cc: Roland Dobbins , Michael Richardson , dots Subject: Re: [Dots] Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 02:12:53 -0000 --001a1143b094fdc6a7054175b934 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Nov 16, 2016 8:33 PM, "Barry Raveendran Greene" wrote: > > > > On Nov 17, 2016, at 10:24 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > > >> > >> If we thought NETCONF and the like were suitable for this application, > >> we would've latched onto them. We didn't for a reason, as you rightly > >> note. > > > > Can you point me towards the reason? > > I haven't seen any technical reasons as yet. > > +1 > The relatively large size of NETCONF / RESTCONF messages, a lack of ubiquitous support for these protocols, the relative complexity of the protocols, the requirements of signaling not meshing with the intent of a *network configuration* protocol, the emphasis on UDP for signaling, the reference in multiple documents to the idea that DOTS is not intended to support remote configuration as a primary use case, ... I've seen all of the above and more in the thread thus far *and more*. Are these not considered technical concerns? 'cause these are really technical concerns. But ya know what? If you want to (ab)use NETCONF to signal / transfer data, then great. Go ahead and implement, test, and let people know how it goes. Write a draft or three, even! Running code trumps conversation every time. With that said, given that every fiber of my being is screaming that NETCONF / RESTCONF is the wrong way to go here, I'll happily keep working on things that *aren't* NETCONF / RESTCONF in the meantime :) Good luck with all of that, Gilbert Clark --001a1143b094fdc6a7054175b934 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Nov 16, 2016 8:33 PM, "Barry Raveendran Greene"= <bgreene@senki.org> wrote:<= br> >
>
> > On Nov 17, 2016, at 10:24 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> If we thought NETCONF and the like were suitable for this app= lication,
> >> we would've latched onto them.=C2=A0 We didn't for a = reason, as you rightly
> >> note.
> >
> > Can you point me towards the reason?
> > I haven't seen any technical reasons as yet.
>
> +1
>

The relatively large size of NETCONF / RESTCONF messages, a = lack of ubiquitous support for these protocols, the relative complexity of = the protocols, the requirements of signaling not meshing with the intent of= a *network configuration* protocol, the emphasis on UDP for signaling, the= reference in multiple documents to the idea that DOTS is not intended to s= upport remote configuration as a primary use case, ...

I've seen all of the above and more in the thread thus f= ar *and more*.=C2=A0 Are these not considered technical concerns?=C2=A0 = 9;cause these are really technical concerns.

But ya know what?=C2=A0 If you want to (ab)use NETCONF to si= gnal / transfer data, then great.=C2=A0 Go ahead and implement, test, and l= et people know how it goes.=C2=A0 Write a draft or three, even!=C2=A0 Runni= ng code trumps conversation every time.

With that said, given that every fiber of my being is scream= ing that NETCONF / RESTCONF is the wrong way to go here, I'll happily k= eep working on things that *aren't* NETCONF / RESTCONF in the meantime = :)

Good luck with all of that,
Gilbert Clark

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Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 x-originating-ip: [10.173.152.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] FW: New Version Notification for draft-teague-dots-protocol-01.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 06:38:05 -0000 RllJDQoNClRoaXMgcmV2aXNpb24gb2ZmZXJzIGFkZGl0aW9uYWwgY2xhcml0eSBhbmQgcmUtb3Jn YW5pemVzIHNjaGVtYSB3aXRoaW4gdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50Lg0KDQpUaGlzIGRvZXMgbm90IHlldCBh ZGRyZXNzIGFsbCB0aGUgY29tbWVudHMgd2XigJl2ZSByZWNlaXZlZCBhcm91bmQgdGhlIGRhdGEg Y2hhbm5lbCBidXQgaXTigJlzIGEgc3RlcCBpbiB0aGF0IGRpcmVjdGlvbi4NCg0KVGhhbmtzLA0K DQotTmlrDQoNCk9uIDE3LzExLzIwMTYsIDE1OjM2LCAiaW50ZXJuZXQtZHJhZnRzQGlldGYub3Jn IiA8aW50ZXJuZXQtZHJhZnRzQGlldGYub3JnPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KICAgIA0KICAgIEEgbmV3IHZl cnNpb24gb2YgSS1ELCBkcmFmdC10ZWFndWUtZG90cy1wcm90b2NvbC0wMS50eHQNCiAgICBoYXMg YmVlbiBzdWNjZXNzZnVsbHkgc3VibWl0dGVkIGJ5IE5payBUZWFndWUgYW5kIHBvc3RlZCB0byB0 aGUNCiAgICBJRVRGIHJlcG9zaXRvcnkuDQogICAgDQogICAgTmFtZToJCWRyYWZ0LXRlYWd1ZS1k b3RzLXByb3RvY29sDQogICAgUmV2aXNpb246CTAxDQogICAgVGl0bGU6CQlERG9TIE9wZW4gVGhy ZWF0IFNpZ25hbGluZyBQcm90b2NvbA0KICAgIERvY3VtZW50IGRhdGU6CTIwMTYtMTEtMTcNCiAg ICBHcm91cDoJCUluZGl2aWR1YWwgU3VibWlzc2lvbg0KICAgIFBhZ2VzOgkJNDANCiAgICBVUkw6 ICAgICAgICAgICAgaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaW50ZXJuZXQtZHJhZnRzL2RyYWZ0LXRl YWd1ZS1kb3RzLXByb3RvY29sLTAxLnR4dA0KICAgIFN0YXR1czogICAgICAgICBodHRwczovL2Rh dGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9kcmFmdC10ZWFndWUtZG90cy1wcm90b2NvbC8NCiAgICBI dG1saXplZDogICAgICAgaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LXRlYWd1ZS1k b3RzLXByb3RvY29sLTAxDQogICAgRGlmZjogICAgICAgICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3Jn L3JmY2RpZmY/dXJsMj1kcmFmdC10ZWFndWUtZG90cy1wcm90b2NvbC0wMQ0KICAgIA0KICAgIEFi c3RyYWN0Og0KICAgICAgIFRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgZGVzY3JpYmVzIERpc3RyaWJ1dGVkLURlbmlh bC1vZi1TZXJ2aWNlIChERG9TKSBPcGVuDQogICAgICAgVGhyZWF0IFNpZ25hbGluZyAoRE9UUyks IGEgcHJvdG9jb2wgZm9yIHJlcXVlc3RpbmcgYW5kIG1hbmFnaW5nDQogICAgICAgbWl0aWdhdGlv biBvZiBERG9TIGF0dGFja3MuDQogICAgDQogICAgICAgRE9UUyBtaXRpZ2F0aW9uIHJlcXVlc3Rz IG92ZXIgdGhlIHNpZ25hbCBjaGFubmVsIHBlcm1pdCBkb21haW5zIHRvDQogICAgICAgc2lnbmFs IHRoZSBuZWVkIGZvciBoZWxwIGZlbmRpbmcgb2ZmIEREb1MgYXR0YWNrcywgc2V0dGluZyB0aGUg c2NvcGUNCiAgICAgICBhbmQgZHVyYXRpb24gb2YgdGhlIHJlcXVlc3RlZCBtaXRpZ2F0aW9uLiAg RWxlbWVudHMgY2FsbGVkIERPVFMNCiAgICAgICBzZXJ2ZXJzIGZpZWxkIHRoZSBzaWduYWxzIGZv ciBoZWxwLCBhbmQgZW5hYmxlIGRlZmVuc2l2ZQ0KICAgICAgIGNvdW50ZXJtZWFzdXJlcyB0byBk ZWZlbmQgYWdhaW5zdCB0aGUgYXR0YWNrIHJlcG9ydGVkIGJ5IHRoZSBjbGllbnRzLA0KICAgICAg IHJlcG9ydGluZyB0aGUgc3RhdHVzIG9mIHRoZSBkZWxlZ2F0ZWQgZGVmZW5zZSB0byB0aGUgcmVx dWVzdGluZw0KICAgICAgIGNsaWVudHMuICBET1RTIGNsaWVudHMgYWRkaXRpb25hbGx5IG1heSB1 c2UgdGhlIGRhdGEgY2hhbm5lbCB0bw0KICAgICAgIG1hbmFnZSBmaWx0ZXJzIGFuZCBibGFjay0g YW5kIHdoaXRlLWxpc3RzIHRvIHJlc3RyaWN0IG9yIGFsbG93DQogICAgICAgdHJhZmZpYyB0byB0 aGUgY2xpZW50cycgZG9tYWlucyBhcmJpdHJhcmlseS4NCiAgICANCiAgICAgICBUaGUgRE9UUyBz aWduYWwgY2hhbm5lbCBtYXkgb3BlcmF0ZSBvdmVyIFVEUCBbUkZDMDc2OF0gYW5kIGlmDQogICAg ICAgbmVjZXNzYXJ5IFRDUCBbUkZDMDc5M10uICBUaGlzIHJldmlzaW9uIGRpc2N1c3NlcyBhIHRy YW5zcG9ydC0NCiAgICAgICBhZ25vc3RpYyBhcHByb2FjaCB0byB0aGlzIGNoYW5uZWwsIGZvY3Vz aW5nIG9uIHRoZSBtZXNzYWdlIGV4Y2hhbmdlcw0KICAgICAgIGFuZCBkZWxlZ2F0aW5nIHRyYW5z cG9ydCBzcGVjaWZpY3MgdG8gb3RoZXIgZG9jdW1lbnRzLiAgVGhlIERPVFMgZGF0YQ0KICAgICAg IGNoYW5uZWwgb3BlcmF0ZXMgb3ZlciBIVFRQUyBvciBhIHRyYW5zcG9ydCB3aXRoIHNpbWlsYXIg cmVsaWFiaWxpdHksDQogICAgICAgaW50ZXJhY3Rpb24gYW5kIHNlY3VyaXR5IGNoYXJhY3Rlcmlz dGljcy4NCiAgICANCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgDQogICAgDQogICAgDQog ICAgUGxlYXNlIG5vdGUgdGhhdCBpdCBtYXkgdGFrZSBhIGNvdXBsZSBvZiBtaW51dGVzIGZyb20g dGhlIHRpbWUgb2Ygc3VibWlzc2lvbg0KICAgIHVudGlsIHRoZSBodG1saXplZCB2ZXJzaW9uIGFu ZCBkaWZmIGFyZSBhdmFpbGFibGUgYXQgdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcuDQogICAgDQogICAgVGhlIElF VEYgU2VjcmV0YXJpYXQNCiAgICANCiAgICANCg0K From nobody Wed Nov 16 22:38:39 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CC201295B7 for ; 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Thu, 17 Nov 2016 01:38:32 -0500 Received: from BRN1WNEXMBX01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([::1]) by brn1wnexcas02.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 01:38:32 -0500 From: "Teague, Nik" To: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-teague-dots-protocol-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHSQJzh7v8lRGmq+0esvs5y3OsJ0qDdo8CA Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 06:38:31 +0000 Message-ID: <8BC030D7-3274-4AD7-A843-90A78B226CC4@verisign.com> References: <147936456613.23883.4311317051335515650.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <147936456613.23883.4311317051335515650.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 x-originating-ip: [10.173.152.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] FW: New Version Notification for draft-teague-dots-protocol-01.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 06:38:36 -0000 RllJDQoNClRoaXMgcmV2aXNpb24gb2ZmZXJzIGFkZGl0aW9uYWwgY2xhcml0eSBhbmQgcmUtb3Jn YW5pemVzIHNjaGVtYSB3aXRoaW4gdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50Lg0KDQpUaGlzIGRvZXMgbm90IHlldCBh ZGRyZXNzIGFsbCB0aGUgY29tbWVudHMgd2XigJl2ZSByZWNlaXZlZCBhcm91bmQgdGhlIGRhdGEg Y2hhbm5lbCBidXQgaXTigJlzIGEgc3RlcCBpbiB0aGF0IGRpcmVjdGlvbi4NCg0KVGhhbmtzLA0K DQotTmlrDQoNCk9uIDE3LzExLzIwMTYsIDE1OjM2LCAiaW50ZXJuZXQtZHJhZnRzQGlldGYub3Jn IiA8aW50ZXJuZXQtZHJhZnRzQGlldGYub3JnPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KICAgIA0KICAgIEEgbmV3IHZl cnNpb24gb2YgSS1ELCBkcmFmdC10ZWFndWUtZG90cy1wcm90b2NvbC0wMS50eHQNCiAgICBoYXMg YmVlbiBzdWNjZXNzZnVsbHkgc3VibWl0dGVkIGJ5IE5payBUZWFndWUgYW5kIHBvc3RlZCB0byB0 aGUNCiAgICBJRVRGIHJlcG9zaXRvcnkuDQogICAgDQogICAgTmFtZToJCWRyYWZ0LXRlYWd1ZS1k b3RzLXByb3RvY29sDQogICAgUmV2aXNpb246CTAxDQogICAgVGl0bGU6CQlERG9TIE9wZW4gVGhy ZWF0IFNpZ25hbGluZyBQcm90b2NvbA0KICAgIERvY3VtZW50IGRhdGU6CTIwMTYtMTEtMTcNCiAg ICBHcm91cDoJCUluZGl2aWR1YWwgU3VibWlzc2lvbg0KICAgIFBhZ2VzOgkJNDANCiAgICBVUkw6 ICAgICAgICAgICAgaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaW50ZXJuZXQtZHJhZnRzL2RyYWZ0LXRl YWd1ZS1kb3RzLXByb3RvY29sLTAxLnR4dA0KICAgIFN0YXR1czogICAgICAgICBodHRwczovL2Rh dGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9kcmFmdC10ZWFndWUtZG90cy1wcm90b2NvbC8NCiAgICBI dG1saXplZDogICAgICAgaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LXRlYWd1ZS1k b3RzLXByb3RvY29sLTAxDQogICAgRGlmZjogICAgICAgICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3Jn L3JmY2RpZmY/dXJsMj1kcmFmdC10ZWFndWUtZG90cy1wcm90b2NvbC0wMQ0KICAgIA0KICAgIEFi c3RyYWN0Og0KICAgICAgIFRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgZGVzY3JpYmVzIERpc3RyaWJ1dGVkLURlbmlh bC1vZi1TZXJ2aWNlIChERG9TKSBPcGVuDQogICAgICAgVGhyZWF0IFNpZ25hbGluZyAoRE9UUyks IGEgcHJvdG9jb2wgZm9yIHJlcXVlc3RpbmcgYW5kIG1hbmFnaW5nDQogICAgICAgbWl0aWdhdGlv biBvZiBERG9TIGF0dGFja3MuDQogICAgDQogICAgICAgRE9UUyBtaXRpZ2F0aW9uIHJlcXVlc3Rz IG92ZXIgdGhlIHNpZ25hbCBjaGFubmVsIHBlcm1pdCBkb21haW5zIHRvDQogICAgICAgc2lnbmFs IHRoZSBuZWVkIGZvciBoZWxwIGZlbmRpbmcgb2ZmIEREb1MgYXR0YWNrcywgc2V0dGluZyB0aGUg c2NvcGUNCiAgICAgICBhbmQgZHVyYXRpb24gb2YgdGhlIHJlcXVlc3RlZCBtaXRpZ2F0aW9uLiAg RWxlbWVudHMgY2FsbGVkIERPVFMNCiAgICAgICBzZXJ2ZXJzIGZpZWxkIHRoZSBzaWduYWxzIGZv ciBoZWxwLCBhbmQgZW5hYmxlIGRlZmVuc2l2ZQ0KICAgICAgIGNvdW50ZXJtZWFzdXJlcyB0byBk ZWZlbmQgYWdhaW5zdCB0aGUgYXR0YWNrIHJlcG9ydGVkIGJ5IHRoZSBjbGllbnRzLA0KICAgICAg IHJlcG9ydGluZyB0aGUgc3RhdHVzIG9mIHRoZSBkZWxlZ2F0ZWQgZGVmZW5zZSB0byB0aGUgcmVx dWVzdGluZw0KICAgICAgIGNsaWVudHMuICBET1RTIGNsaWVudHMgYWRkaXRpb25hbGx5IG1heSB1 c2UgdGhlIGRhdGEgY2hhbm5lbCB0bw0KICAgICAgIG1hbmFnZSBmaWx0ZXJzIGFuZCBibGFjay0g YW5kIHdoaXRlLWxpc3RzIHRvIHJlc3RyaWN0IG9yIGFsbG93DQogICAgICAgdHJhZmZpYyB0byB0 aGUgY2xpZW50cycgZG9tYWlucyBhcmJpdHJhcmlseS4NCiAgICANCiAgICAgICBUaGUgRE9UUyBz aWduYWwgY2hhbm5lbCBtYXkgb3BlcmF0ZSBvdmVyIFVEUCBbUkZDMDc2OF0gYW5kIGlmDQogICAg ICAgbmVjZXNzYXJ5IFRDUCBbUkZDMDc5M10uICBUaGlzIHJldmlzaW9uIGRpc2N1c3NlcyBhIHRy YW5zcG9ydC0NCiAgICAgICBhZ25vc3RpYyBhcHByb2FjaCB0byB0aGlzIGNoYW5uZWwsIGZvY3Vz aW5nIG9uIHRoZSBtZXNzYWdlIGV4Y2hhbmdlcw0KICAgICAgIGFuZCBkZWxlZ2F0aW5nIHRyYW5z cG9ydCBzcGVjaWZpY3MgdG8gb3RoZXIgZG9jdW1lbnRzLiAgVGhlIERPVFMgZGF0YQ0KICAgICAg IGNoYW5uZWwgb3BlcmF0ZXMgb3ZlciBIVFRQUyBvciBhIHRyYW5zcG9ydCB3aXRoIHNpbWlsYXIg cmVsaWFiaWxpdHksDQogICAgICAgaW50ZXJhY3Rpb24gYW5kIHNlY3VyaXR5IGNoYXJhY3Rlcmlz dGljcy4NCiAgICANCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgDQogICAgDQogICAgDQog ICAgUGxlYXNlIG5vdGUgdGhhdCBpdCBtYXkgdGFrZSBhIGNvdXBsZSBvZiBtaW51dGVzIGZyb20g dGhlIHRpbWUgb2Ygc3VibWlzc2lvbg0KICAgIHVudGlsIHRoZSBodG1saXplZCB2ZXJzaW9uIGFu ZCBkaWZmIGFyZSBhdmFpbGFibGUgYXQgdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcuDQogICAgDQogICAgVGhlIElF VEYgU2VjcmV0YXJpYXQNCiAgICANCiAgICANCg0K From nobody Wed Nov 16 23:39:14 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A8631293EE for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:39:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zeayekZSvi3T for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:39:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:de77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECE50129507 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:39:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (dhcp-8d96.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.141.150]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42B591F8F0 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 07:39:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 57DA9F7; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 16:39:06 +0900 (KST) From: Michael Richardson To: "dots\@ietf.org" In-reply-to: <17deddbfe2a74204880d3892e819ef5c@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <008f01d23f2b$277490e0$765db2a0$@ndzh.com> <00a801d23f2b$8a283480$9e789d80$@ndzh.com> <019601d2405c$94723fd0$bd56bf70$@ndzh.com> <17deddbfe2a74204880d3892e819ef5c@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> Comments: In-reply-to "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" message dated "Thu, 17 Nov 2016 02:44:16 +0000." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 16:39:06 +0900 Message-ID: <2768.1479368346@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] FW: Why is DOTS not using NETCONF/RESTCONF for management functions X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 07:39:11 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: > Yes, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-signal-channel-04 > uses COAP over (D)TLS, CBOR encoded payloads, (D)TLS 1.3 and (D)TLS 1= .2 > profile for performance . So, if your CBOR was derived from a YANG model, you'd be doing exactly NETC= ONF, btw. And that activity happens at ID writing time, not runtime. =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJYLV6aAAoJEJVM4Vb9/EKQmckIAKNPvPlh3Wvfgf6uDT3dooXQ 9lGc1PMIiwLSJuPhzHXojgDKZ4Z0eT8RkTaDoMAS2gwzGcncJ78UGM97oR2o24+F bZYKXoOm6pUNMdjdGW+M/fyMOr2uScdqdZ6Xw9z0L/MPK6PPmNwSD3ScI3UQ65ig rSBRVnPBehDA2FaFc+a/pnD/FOBANQRs9aAzqDbIm3X/LSOLBRplGrK5bT3RSvN1 dWyeVtuNsDyWIBx3MRNd3ACqniD3sVbjknQMM7QoPkKkH1TV40si9acMvLKW8Kqt 0dLF67R4Px1bRBb6fGycD2G0YTOQf0Oa2OMERQ9YFm+E0CubYGBU118BX04ZwKs= =fFEt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Nov 17 07:04:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5642E12959A for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 07:04:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.398 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QJGWBG89kiC1 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 07:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout1.radware.com (mailout1.radware.com [192.115.180.130]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FBCE12948E for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 07:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ILMB1.corp.radware.com ([169.254.1.134]) by ILCAS1.corp.radware.com ([176.200.120.121]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 17:04:28 +0200 From: Ehud Doron To: Roland Dobbins , dots Thread-Topic: [Dots] Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 Thread-Index: AdI7wYm473OfPCFJSFe1ONIXj1qG/gCjJvCA///tvYD//O378IAHIgyA//7tM5A= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:04:28 +0000 Message-ID: References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B8@marathon> <14E9BCB6-D522-4877-84E5-4589472B3CEC@arbor.net> <27D8FF07-7140-478F-AD26-64B5A1B7102D@arbor.net> In-Reply-To: <27D8FF07-7140-478F-AD26-64B5A1B7102D@arbor.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [176.200.121.200] x-tm-as-product-ver: SMEX-11.0.0.4179-8.000.1202-22704.007 x-tm-as-result: No--48.517100-0.000000-31 x-tm-as-user-approved-sender: Yes x-tm-as-user-blocked-sender: No Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:04:32 -0000 Roland Hi Let me please clarify, we are not trying to argue that DOTS Telemetry shoul= d be used to detect DDoS attacks, this is definitely not the case.=20 We are talking about the overall needs to mutually signal telemetry about o= ngoing attacks that DOTS Client asks Server to mitigate upstream. =20 As said, the ultimate objective is to optimize the anti-DoS service provisi= oned using DOTS signaling, and not to detect the attacks. Thanks,=20 Ehud Doron | =A0Senior Architect, Radware CTO office | M: +972-54-7575503 |= T:=A0+972-72-3917120 -----Original Message----- From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 1:05 AM To: dots Subject: Re: [Dots] Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 On 16 Nov 2016, at 23:30, Ehud Doron wrote: > Getting deeper, having comprehensive telemetry about the ongoing=20 > attacks will improve the overall mitigation accomplished, There's already lots of telemetry out there that's used every day to detect= , classify, and traceback DDoS attacks. It is orthogonal to signaling for DDoS mitigation assistance and providing = status updates regarding same. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins _______________________________________________ Dots mailing list Dots@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Thu Nov 17 07:04:43 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6777812948E for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 07:04:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nPn0KppDQpsB for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 07:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout1.radware.com (mailout1.radwarecloud.com [192.115.180.130]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FD4E129583 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 07:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ILMB1.corp.radware.com ([169.254.1.134]) by ILCAS2.corp.radware.com ([176.200.120.122]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 17:04:28 +0200 From: Ehud Doron To: Susan Hares , 'Roland Dobbins' , 'dots' , "fandreas@cisco.com" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 Thread-Index: AdI7wYm473OfPCFJSFe1ONIXj1qG/gCjJvCA///tvYD//O378IAHIDcA//7oJWA= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:04:28 +0000 Message-ID: References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B8@marathon> <14E9BCB6-D522-4877-84E5-4589472B3CEC@arbor.net> <01a301d2405c$e2e541d0$a8afc570$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <01a301d2405c$e2e541d0$a8afc570$@ndzh.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [176.200.121.200] x-tm-as-product-ver: SMEX-11.0.0.4179-8.000.1202-22704.007 x-tm-as-result: No--61.226100-0.000000-31 x-tm-as-user-approved-sender: Yes x-tm-as-user-blocked-sender: No Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:04:33 -0000 Susan I believe the telemetry needs by DOTS is not relates to "flow based" inform= ation, the DOTS telemetry is more "higher" and mainly describes the ongoing= attacks and their attributes. Thanks, Ehud=20 -----Original Message----- From: Susan Hares [mailto:shares@ndzh.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 12:58 AM To: Ehud Doron ; 'Roland Dobbins' ; = 'dots' ; fandreas@cisco.com Subject: RE: [Dots] Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 Ehud: Can you indicate what additional features the telemetry that you propose fo= r DOTS needs over the telemetry provided by IPFIX?=20 Sue=20 -----Original Message----- From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ehud Doron Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 11:31 AM To: Roland Dobbins; dots; fandreas@cisco.com Cc: Ehud Doron Subject: Re: [Dots] Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 Ronald, Flemming and all Thanks for your comments.=20 I appreciate the standpoints you present in your comments, however I really= believe the DOTS WG must also look and consider others views of the challenges DOTS has with regards to DOTS telemetry. =20 No doubt that for the world of DDoS services the "security visibility" is a= major concern to both the anti-DoS service providers and consumers. In all= cases where the DOTS Client will be implemented in an organizations with a= sustainable SOC/NOC teams, the ability to have "customer portal" with visi= bility into the on-going attacks is a critical part of the service. Likewise, anti-DoS service providers need visibility into their customers v= iew on the on-going attacks and other sort of views relates to the service = and its fulfillments. These are critical parts of the service.=20 Getting deeper, having comprehensive telemetry about the ongoing attacks wi= ll improve the overall mitigation accomplished, in terms of time to mitigat= e, accuracy, false-negative, false-positive, and other measures. We must ke= ep in our minds the value gained here. =20 I see all these as a major points and really want to get your view on that,= as well as the view of others at the WG. Obviously, I agree with your points that there are many cases where telemet= ry is with less relevance, mainly since DOTS agents will be integrated in "= radically different paradigms, capabilities, and 'worldviews'...." (which = for my opinion is the right architecture). Having say all that, we must con= sider environments where DOTS Client has DoS/DDoS detection and mitigation = capabilities and can practically signal valuable telemetry. These are defin= itely not rear use cases that must be considered as well.=20 For my mind, after we will get to a consensus about WG view on the needs fo= r telemetry, we can define the best way to standardize it (in which doc and how) and also consider the right time to do. Then we can define the baselin= e set of telemetry we believe are adequate, or the bare minimum, to standar= dize. =20 I am looking forward to continue this discussion with you and the entire th= e WG. Please see also my comments inline.=20 Best wishes, Ehud Doron | =A0Senior Architect, Radware CTO office | M: +972-54-7575503 | T:=A0+972-72-3917120 -----Original Message----- From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Dobbins Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 11:02 AM To: dots Subject: Re: [Dots] Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 On 14 Nov 2016, at 15:14, Ehud Doron wrote: > Essentially we would like to build a "Telemetry" extension standard to=20 > the basic DOTS protocol, and this document would define that. This may make sense at some future date; initially, since we're dealing wit= h devices/software/systems which have radically different paradigms, capabi= lities, and 'worldviews', the initial focus of DOTS should be on signaling = and status only, as the ins are universal functions which are readily under= stood by most any type of node/service/application which could participate = in DOTS. [ED] See my view in the body of the mail. > Keeping the telemetry specification in a separate draft is good=20 > approach for future extensibility. > For this goal, we as the DOTS WG first need to better understand (and=20 > agree in the group) what we see as baseline mandatory capabilities=20 > other DOTS draft should benefit the DOTS Telemetry. We've already held extensive discussions on this topic; initially, we need = a minimum viable capability to allow signaling and status information to be= passed between DOTS participants. [ED] I was not part of this discussions, sorry for that. For my mind, we ne= ed to truly define (or re-define...) the needs for DOTS Telemetry for the a= ctual users (SP, MSSP, Enterprises, carrier and so on) of DOTS, and also th= e baseline set of this telemetry.=20 > (1) Is there an undocumented telemetry use case that needs to be added=20 > to the use case WG document? Section 4.0 suggests that. > Yes. We want to DOTS use cases, the existing and maybe new=20 > others, to be enriched with Telemetry related items. This can come at a later state, if the group believes it to be important. It's sub-optimal to duplicate the work done on IPFIX, I2NSF, I2RS, et.=20 al. in DOTS. By leaving mitigation technique specifics and telemetry speci= fics to one side, we can concentrate on signaling and status, which is all = that's actually required for successful inter- and intra-domain DOTS-enable= d DDoS mitigation assistance and provisioning. [ED] Agree, we shouldn't duplicate any work done at IPFIX, I2NSF. It's important to get to an initial operating capability with the requisite= baseline capability before we expand the scope of DOTS itself, IMHO. [ED] Agree, we just need to define and get to the mutual understanding abou= t the " baseline capability" in term of telemetry. Mainly for the users and= customers of the actual anti-DoS service. =20 ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins _______________________________________________ Dots mailing list Dots@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots _______________________________________________ Dots mailing list Dots@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Thu Nov 17 07:22:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietf.org Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3AB9129981; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 07:22:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.38.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <147939617386.1746.17021745002346494502.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 07:22:53 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: dots@ietf.org Subject: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-03.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:22:54 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling of the IETF. Title : Use cases for DDoS Open Threat Signaling Authors : Roland Dobbins Stefan Fouant Daniel Migault Robert Moskowitz Nik Teague Liang Xia Kaname Nishizuka Filename : draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-03.txt Pages : 23 Date : 2016-11-17 Abstract: The DDoS Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) effort is intended to provide a protocol that facilitates interoperability between multivendor solutions/services. This document presents use cases to evaluate the interactions expected between the DOTS components as well as the DOTS exchanges. The purpose of the use cases is to identify the interacting DOTS component, how they collaborate and what are the types of information to be exchanged. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Nov 17 07:25:58 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDB5A129980 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 07:25:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.718 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.718 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id imoFx0b0wbtl for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 07:25:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D18B212968D for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 07:25:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DAS62926; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:25:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SZXEMA418-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.36) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.130) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:25:50 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA502-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.53]) by SZXEMA418-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 23:25:44 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank)" To: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHSQOaLurCeyurqRk2WFzYEXrqGVqDdS5vw Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:25:44 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.127.98] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090203.582DCBFF.00D3, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.53, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 685b7b94b88eaaaf08b860aee3d5b17e Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-03.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:25:57 -0000 Hi all, The DOTS use cases -03 draft has been submitted, please review and give you= r comments. Thanks a lot! B.R. Frank -----Original Message----- From: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of inte= rnet-drafts@ietf.org Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 12:23 AM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: dots@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-03.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling of the IETF. Title : Use cases for DDoS Open Threat Signaling Authors : Roland Dobbins Stefan Fouant Daniel Migault Robert Moskowitz Nik Teague Liang Xia Kaname Nishizuka Filename : draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-03.txt Pages : 23 Date : 2016-11-17 Abstract: The DDoS Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) effort is intended to provide a protocol that facilitates interoperability between multivendor solutions/services. This document presents use cases to evaluate the interactions expected between the DOTS components as well as the DOTS exchanges. The purpose of the use cases is to identify the interacting DOTS component, how they collaborate and what are the types of information to be exchanged. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-dots-use-cases-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ie= tf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From nobody Thu Nov 17 08:59:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 998D3129509 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 08:59:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.021 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.021 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 17 Nov 2016 16:59:21 +0000 Received: from DM2PR0101MB1039.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.160.129.156]) by DM2PR0101MB1039.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.160.129.156]) with mapi id 15.01.0721.015; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 16:59:21 +0000 From: "Dobbins, Roland" To: Ehud Doron Thread-Topic: [Dots] Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 Thread-Index: AdI7wYm473OfPCFJSFe1ONIXj1qG/gCjJvCAABCTo4AAZZb/gAAcaduAABLbOwAABAMHgQ== Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 16:59:20 +0000 Message-ID: <4AB57E14-89A9-40EB-966A-0DEF1DA1F43D@arbor.net> References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0104EAE8B8@marathon> <14E9BCB6-D522-4877-84E5-4589472B3CEC@arbor.net> <27D8FF07-7140-478F-AD26-64B5A1B7102D@arbor.net>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=rdobbins@arbor.net; x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [121.162.109.253] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DM2PR0101MB1039; 7:k1+8mGXCKhPw7yLKZPoR11JSWC9UUvPNNIagUuyx4YGO2US1l2hiV2zyCorKPVav/k8TE0gOdVcelDixjsqyuhqaRT4xsBML6Utmj3vvPlIpSml3dIf3wEeqKFFyDlz5UbTY6g8UK1G4YD/jT5dI2zPYgioAgU/cw8gaHTrEXnLPk2cqcAqEaT2Vcc6YRF0QVL7HHJxsTXqpGttlHVvPxZdYDSGFB3ccMUcpNFlU5sKL2Q2l4GbtG15DKJu9lgCoaseKnPCdUDKaD3rzZYbDYobg7AxP/KmMli4+2BI8AbwA579VW0JoOq+HSQj4KjtgZcUhkLXU0hL7oNIETY+11TKXz82djeBaLSyCUCuwc/8= x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: fb0bca34-10eb-44b3-7c0c-08d40f0b137a x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; 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FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: arbor.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4AB57E1489A940EB966A0DEF1DA1F43Darbornet_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arbor.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Nov 2016 16:59:20.4698 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 54f11205-d4aa-4809-bd36-0b542199c5b2 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM2PR0101MB1039 Archived-At: Cc: dots Subject: Re: [Dots] Questions about draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 16:59:29 -0000 --_000_4AB57E1489A940EB966A0DEF1DA1F43Darbornet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Nov 18, 2016, at 12:04 AM, Ehud Doron > wrote: We are talking about the overall needs to mutually signal telemetry about o= ngoing attacks that DOTS Client asks Server to mitigate upstream. And what I'm saying is that straying beyond simple signaling & basic mitiga= tion-related information is a bridge too far, for the initial stages, at le= ast. The paradigms for and capabilities of nodes which will participate in DOTS = vary widely, & the parameters posited in draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 are = a) way too subjective, b) beyond the capabilities for most potential DOTS n= odes, c) a barrier to entry for DOTS participation, & d) unnecessary for si= mple, useful DOTS signaling to perform its intended function. This is something to be taken up in later phases of DOTS (if indeed it shou= ld be included in DOTS at all), IMHO. We need a minimum viable operational capability, to start. We can get fan= cy later. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins > --_000_4AB57E1489A940EB966A0DEF1DA1F43Darbornet_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Nov 18, 2016, at 12:04 AM, Ehud Doron <EhudD@Radware.com> wrote:

We are talking about the overall needs to mutually signal telemetry about o= ngoing attacks that DOTS Client asks Server to mitigate upstream.  
And what I'm saying is that straying beyond simple signaling & bas= ic mitigation-related information is a bridge too far, for the initial stag= es, at least. 

The paradigms for and capabilities of nodes which will participate in = DOTS vary widely, & the parameters posited in draft-doron-dots-telemetry-00 are a) w= ay too subjective, b) beyond the capabilities for most potential DOTS nodes, c) a barrier to entry for DOTS participatio= n, & d) unnecessary for simple, useful DOTS signaling to perform its in= tended function.

This is somet= hing to be taken up in later phases of DOTS (if indeed it should be include= d in DOTS at all), IMHO.

We need a min= imum viable operational capability, to start.   We can get fancy later= .

-----------------------------------
Roland Dobbins &l= t;rdobbins@arbor.net>
--_000_4AB57E1489A940EB966A0DEF1DA1F43Darbornet_-- From nobody Thu Nov 17 13:26:36 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79EDC12953B for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 13:26:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.945 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.945 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1n3JqiXFgbkc for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 13:26:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-97-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38CB81294C9 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 13:26:34 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=forwardok (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=31.133.152.135; From: "Susan Hares" To: References: <147939617386.1746.17021745002346494502.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <147939617386.1746.17021745002346494502.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 16:24:01 -0500 Message-ID: <02b801d24118$ebccbe10$c3663a30$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQHk/Q+VDj1rlUmyX6TwnwToXroWj6C4MnLg Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-03.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 21:26:35 -0000 Roland, Stefan, Daniel, Robert, Nik, Frank, and Kaname-san: This addition was very helpful in understanding the intra-domain context of DOTS: There are several merits of using DOTS signaling in an intra-organizational manner: 1. It will facilitate interoperability between DDoS solutions/ services by providing a standards-based, programmatic communications mechanism 2. It will reduce time to initiate DDoS mitigation services The required data exchange between DOTS client and DOTS server may be equivalent to or a subset of information set of inter-organizational use cases. Section 3.4 was very useful as it described a pre-agreed contract with the following elements: mutual authentication between all elements (intra and inter- organization) and DDoS service requested from multiple peered DOTS organizations (via bi-lateral agreements or broker/orchestrator). Section A.1.1 - indicates that the DOTS client must be linked to the routing devices (CPE, PE) and security devices (DDoS detection devices). What I still need help with based on Appendix A - is how much is the DOTS signaling protocol and how much is the collaboration with other existing mechanisms. What I am struggling with in this description is how much is in-band and how much is out-of-band? Do you utilize other protocols (BGP Flow-specification)? In all of these questions, theoretical best mechanisms are NOT my focus. What DOTS must support is the transition of the existing mechanisms to an array of inter-operable solutions based on the IETF protocol. After chatting with you-all I really think there is unique about the DOTs signaling protocol, but I am pushing to define when, where, how, and why. I will not be able to join you today - as I have duties for the IETF NOMCOM. Thanks for all the wonderful discussions this week. Sue ============== Spelling nit: Inter-organizational: a DOTS communications relationship between distinct organizations with separate spans of administrative control. Typical inter-organizational DOTS communication relationships would be between a DDoS mitigation service provider and an end-customer organizational which requires DDoS mitigation assistance; between multiple DDoS mitigation service providers coordinating mutual defense of a mutual end-customer; or between DDoS mitigation service providers which are requesting additional DDoS mitigation assistance in for attacks which exceed their inherent DDoS mitigation capacities and/or capabilities. /organizational/organization/ -----Original Message----- From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 10:23 AM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: dots@ietf.org Subject: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-03.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling of the IETF. Title : Use cases for DDoS Open Threat Signaling Authors : Roland Dobbins Stefan Fouant Daniel Migault Robert Moskowitz Nik Teague Liang Xia Kaname Nishizuka Filename : draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-03.txt Pages : 23 Date : 2016-11-17 Abstract: The DDoS Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) effort is intended to provide a protocol that facilitates interoperability between multivendor solutions/services. This document presents use cases to evaluate the interactions expected between the DOTS components as well as the DOTS exchanges. The purpose of the use cases is to identify the interacting DOTS component, how they collaborate and what are the types of information to be exchanged. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ Dots mailing list Dots@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Thu Nov 17 15:33:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63A871293FB for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:33:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=arbor.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mgbZynqUd5pE for ; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 23:33:19 -0000 On 18 Nov 2016, at 4:24, Susan Hares wrote: > indicates that the DOTS client must be linked to the routing devices > (CPE, PE) and security devices (DDoS detection devices). Actually, that isn't the case. Those are two example sets of participants only. > What I still need help with based on Appendix A - is how much is the > DOTS signaling protocol 100%, excepting the parts which are explicitly called out as being outside the scope of DOTS. ----------------------------------- Roland Dobbins From nobody Thu Nov 17 20:20:06 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C66821299F8 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 20:20:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.398 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XQeMjSUrfhHP for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 20:20:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.verisign.com (mail1.verisign.com [72.13.63.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3076C1299F4 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 20:20:03 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.31,655,1473120000"; d="scan'208";a="638280" IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?9a23=3AMN53jxEhWCta1xHPV2qBbJ1GYnF86YWxBRYc798d?= =?us-ascii?q?s5kLTJ7yo8uwAkXT6L1XgUPTWs2DsrQf2rGQ6v+rBzNIyK3CmUhKSIZLWR4BhJ?= =?us-ascii?q?detC0bK+nBN3fGKuX3ZTcxBsVIWQwt1Xi6NU9IBJS2PAWK8TW94jEIBxrwKxd+?= =?us-ascii?q?KPjrFY7OlcS30P2594HObwlSijewZb1/IA+roQjTucUbgIlvIbstxxXUpXdFZ/?= =?us-ascii?q?5Yzn5yK1KJmBb86Maw/Jp9/ClVpvks6c1OX7jkcqohVbBXAygoPG4z5M3wqBnM?= =?us-ascii?q?VhCP6WcGUmUXiRVHHQ7I5wznU5jrsyv6su192DSGPcDzULs5Vyiu47ttRRT1ky?= =?us-ascii?q?oMKSI3/3/LhcxxlKJboQyupxpjw47PfYqZMONycr7Bcd8GQGZMWNtaWS5cDYOm?= =?us-ascii?q?d4YBD/QPM/tEr4fzpFUOoxmxCgetBOzzxTFHiWT73bEh3OQkDQ3KwBYtEtAIvX?= =?us-ascii?q?/JrNv1LqASUeWtwaXG0zvMcelZ2Tjg6IfWahwqvOmCXbNzccbf1EIiEAXFjkmO?= =?us-ascii?q?poP/MDOVy/oCvnOF7+V+T+KvinUnqwB+ojip3Msjlo7JhocMx13C6C53w541KM?= =?us-ascii?q?WlREJne9KoDZldui+AO4drQs4vTXtktDg1x7AGoZK3YTQGxI46yxPdZfGLaZWE?= =?us-ascii?q?7xL9WOqLLjp1gm9udqiliBao60egz/XxVsyz0FlXsCVIisLMtnUR1xzL7ciHV+?= =?us-ascii?q?d98l+h2TmR0wDT7flJLlsulardNpIhxrExlp8JvkTCGi/2n1j2jLOKekk64OSo?= =?us-ascii?q?9froYq/npp+HNo90hQf+Pr4ylcy4BOQ0KgkOX26F9uSgzLDv4FH1TK9XgvA0nK?= =?us-ascii?q?TVqo3WKMQVq6KjHQNY3YYu5w66Dzi80dQYmXcHLEhCeBKCl4XpPU3OL+7iAvew?= =?us-ascii?q?nlSjjixmx+7YMb37A5XNNXnDkLjnfbpn90Fczw8zwchF551IErEBPO7zWkjpud?= =?us-ascii?q?PFCR85Lxe0zv3mCNpjyoMeV3iDAqiDMKPdqVWI/P4gI/GQZI8JvzbwM+Ml5/70?= =?us-ascii?q?gn8jh1AdZrKk3Z0KZ3G5HvRqOVmWYX3pgt0ZC2cFohI+TPD2iF2FSTNTfWu9X6?= =?us-ascii?q?Un6T4gCYKmC5zDS5u3j7ybxyi7GYdWanpACl+SDXe7P7mDDs0LbCuULodNlTYO?= =?us-ascii?q?VL66A9s72Rakvg780JJuNODT4GseuI61kJBO+vbak1kS/CZ5FIzJyGGEVWxvtm?= =?us-ascii?q?UEVT9w16d69x9T0FCGhOJEjvVXCNEXr9VIUU1yYZjAwuV1Ft3aRA/bf8yIR1Dg?= =?us-ascii?q?SdKjV2JiBuktysMDNh4uU+6piQrOim/zW+cY?= X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2F5BADUgC5Y//WZrQpeHAEBBAEBCgEBFwEBBAEBCgEBgww?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAYF3B6RIlmyGIQIagjwRAQEBAQEBAQEBAQECgQeCMxoBghsBAQMBIxFFE?= =?us-ascii?q?AIBCA0BDAImAgICMBUQAgQBDQWIZKw/gimLVgEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BARyBCYU0gXwIglWESReCbS2CMAEEmkUBkkeOTI1ShAs0gSyFPnKHPoEMAQEB?= Received: from brn1wnexcas02.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com (brn1wnexcas02 [10.173.152.206]) by brn1lxmailout02.verisign.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id uAI4K1Ja007794 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 17 Nov 2016 23:20:01 -0500 Received: from BRN1WNEXMBX01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([::1]) by brn1wnexcas02.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 23:20:01 -0500 From: "Teague, Nik" To: Roland Dobbins , Susan Hares Thread-Topic: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHSQOaIFt7tPemjaUe3QvfTJHGC56DeA9iAgAAkBQCAAOcTgA== Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 04:20:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <147939617386.1746.17021745002346494502.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <02b801d24118$ebccbe10$c3663a30$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 x-originating-ip: [10.173.152.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <2B732B3695E1334995E47A55A1B8233B@verisign.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "dots@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-03.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 04:20:05 -0000 T24gMTgvMTEvMjAxNiwgMDg6MzIsICJEb3RzIG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiBSb2xhbmQgRG9iYmlucyIg PGRvdHMtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2YgcmRvYmJpbnNAYXJib3IubmV0PiB3 cm90ZToNCg0KICAgIE9uIDE4IE5vdiAyMDE2LCBhdCA0OjI0LCBTdXNhbiBIYXJlcyB3cm90ZToN CiAgICANCiAgICA+ICBpbmRpY2F0ZXMgdGhhdCB0aGUgRE9UUyBjbGllbnQgbXVzdCBiZSBsaW5r ZWQgdG8gdGhlIHJvdXRpbmcgZGV2aWNlcyANCiAgICA+KENQRSwgUEUpIGFuZCBzZWN1cml0eSBk ZXZpY2VzIChERG9TIGRldGVjdGlvbiBkZXZpY2VzKS4NCiAgICANCiAgICBBY3R1YWxseSwgdGhh dCBpc24ndCB0aGUgY2FzZS4gIFRob3NlIGFyZSB0d28gZXhhbXBsZSBzZXRzIG9mIA0KICAgIHBh cnRpY2lwYW50cyBvbmx5Lg0KDQpJIHdvdWxkIGFncmVlIHRoaXMgaXNu4oCZdCBhIE1VU1Qg4oCT IGl0cyBqdXN0IG9uZSBwb3NzaWJsZSBzY2VuYXJpby4gIERlcGxveW1lbnRzIGFuZCBpbnRlcmRl cGVuZGVuY2llcyB3aWxsIHZhcnkuDQoNClRoYW5rcywNCg0KLU5paw0KDQo= From nobody Sat Nov 26 18:31:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83F0F1293E0 for ; Sat, 26 Nov 2016 18:31:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.416 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.416 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8uIn0JNdxDgk for ; Sat, 26 Nov 2016 18:31:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.sandvine.com (Mail1.sandvine.com [64.7.137.134]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64092127735 for ; Sat, 26 Nov 2016 18:31:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from WTL-EXCHP-2.sandvine.com ([fe80::68ac:f071:19ff:3455]) by wtl-exchp-1.sandvine.com ([fe80::ac6b:cc1e:f2ff:93aa%18]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Sat, 26 Nov 2016 21:31:46 -0500 From: Dave Dolson To: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: feedback on draft-ietf-dots-requirements Thread-Index: AdJCw56N3It0vvnJSvSfOG8E2IPZ9A== Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 02:31:46 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.196.10] x-c2processedorg: b2f06e69-072f-40ee-90c5-80a34e700794 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E8355113905631478EFF04F5AA706E9831186C30wtlexchp2sandvi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Mortensen, Andrew" , "rgm@htt-consult.com" , "Tirumaleswar Reddy \(tireddy\)" Subject: [Dots] feedback on draft-ietf-dots-requirements X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 02:31:53 -0000 --_000_E8355113905631478EFF04F5AA706E9831186C30wtlexchp2sandvi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here are my comments from in-depth reading of the dots requirement draft. 1.1 I had trouble parsing "Once staggering attack traffic volume is now the nor= m" until I realized it should be hyphenated "Once-staggering" 1.2 To the list in "DDoS attack targets", can we add "network links" ? E.g., th= e target might not be a specific end-point, rather an entire organization's= connection to the internet. For definition of "DDoS attack telemetry", should the word "measurements" s= hould be used? "Collected measurements and behavioral characteristics..." For "countermeasure", this sounds like only packet filtering. Is that accur= ate and complete? Could tar-pit or routing changes be included in counterme= asures? Is "signal channel" intended to be the same thing as the "session" mentione= d in the architecture? I think so, and terminology should be made consisten= t between the docs. If not, I don't understand the difference between chann= el and session. Should "Data channel" also be bidirectional an mutually-authenticated, like= the signal channel? Should "Filter" be limited to the two actions of rate-limiting or discardin= g? Is filter really intended to include action, or just the match criteria= ? Similarly for "Blacklist": is block the only valid action for black-listed = addresses? 2. The second paragraph says "DOTS is an advisory protocol." I thought this mi= ght mean that (a) a client's request for aid may be ignored and (b) mitigat= ion may be done prior to request or after withdrawal. Would that idea be ac= curate? (My thinking is that a DOTS server may know better than the client= based on a wider source of telemetry.) In 2.1, - to GEN-002, I suggest adding that DOTS should be carried in a transport n= ot susceptible to head-of-line blocking. - is GEN-003 intended to be a statement about the transport protocol being = bidirectional? E.g., on the same UDP connection. If so, please say so; othe= rwise it is probably OK. - in GEN-004, consider picking a specific MTU size, like 500 bytes, because= otherwise there is no way to judge if the protocol meets requirements. In 2.2, - in OP-002, we mandate session health monitoring, but we haven't so far ma= ndated having a session, or what constitutes a session. So I think we need = an OP-002a that mandates a session and how it shall be defined and maintain= ed. - In OP-003, can we choose whether security state is shared or whether a ne= w state is negotiated after connection? Otherwise the client is left guessi= ng, it seems. Also, I don't know what is meant exactly by fate-shared security state. Ple= ase replace with a more precise description. (It sounds like if one fails t= he other should fail, but I can't believe you intended that.) OP-004: This requirement has several ideas in it, which I think should be b= roken into multiple requirements: (a) The idea that messages be acknowledged with a status code. - But it is unclear whether the status must be delivered immediate= ly, or reported later. I expect there could be an immediate "I hear your re= quest", which doesn't necessarily mean anything can be done. There should b= e a way for the client to later ask, "how are you doing with that request?" (b) Whether the server MUST do as it is told. - On this point, I think the "MUST cease mitigation activity" is w= rong, since the server may have other evidence or other clients requesting = the mitigation. This is acknowledged by the "may continue mitigating" later= in the paragraph. So at minimum the MUST is too strong. OP-005. Instead of wording this as a requirement on the client, can we rewo= rd it as a requirement on the server? E.g., "A DOTS server MUST be capable= of accepting a mitigation lifetime, after which a mitigation request is re= moved if not refreshed." This server perspective should be applied to all = of the paragraphs. OP-006. I would like to see all of specific scopes precisely defined as req= uired or optional, but not as examples. Let's argue about which scopes are mandatory or optional (or extendable) a= t this requirements phase. Also, I'm not clear on what DNS name filtering means: is this for filtering= DNS packets, or for looking up the name and filtering the corresponding ad= dresses? OP-008. I hope there isn't going to be an argument about this, but... I bel= ieve it is not a client error to ask for a mitigation that conflicts with a= nother client (how could it even know?). Rather, it is up to the server to = weigh the various requests and act for the overall good. As paragraph 2 of = section 2 says, "DOTS is an advisory protocol". I don't even think an overlapping prefix range is an error; rather both cli= ents have identified the same attack. OP-009. I believe the idea is that the client may be behind a NAT, not the = server? If the server might be behind a NAT, there will need to be a way to= poke a hole in the NAT, either with uPnP or other means. Please make this = clear. Are there encryption or integrity requirements for the signal channel? DATA-001. Could one phrase this as, DOTS must be sent over a transport with= reliable in-order delivery? DATA-004. In the last paragraph there is a hint that different clients own = different address ranges. This idea needs to be better defined. It isn't cl= ear to me that a DOTS client necessarily "owns" the addresses that it notic= ed requires mitigating. E.g., a relay doesn't own the addresses it is passi= ng along mitigation requests about. Also, an organization might have differ= ent clients that can request mitigation for the same ranges, so we don't wa= nt mutually exclusive ownership. In section 2.4, Security, - Authentication is described, but neither authorization nor audit= ing are mentioned. Regarding authorization, can different clients have diff= erent privileges/capabilities? Revocation of authorization is required too.= And auditing of requests seems like a good idea. SEC-003 Does it need to prevent message replay, or merely make replay usel= ess? E.g., replaying idempotent operations is OK. 2.5 I'm not sure what to make of this section. I think I just want to review th= e data model. 3.1 This sentence is unnecessary: "The form of that congestion control is i= mplementation specific." 3.2 Why does the data channel require in-order message delivery? I think we= need to know what the messages are before making that decision. Keep in mi= nd that HTTP does not provide that. David Dolson Senior Software Architect Sandvine --_000_E8355113905631478EFF04F5AA706E9831186C30wtlexchp2sandvi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Here are my comments from in-depth reading of the do= ts requirement draft.

 

1.1

I had trouble parsing “Once staggering attack = traffic volume is now the norm” until I realized it should be hyphena= ted “Once-staggering”

 

1.2

To the list in “DDoS attack targets”, ca= n we add “network links” ? E.g., the target might not be a spec= ific end-point, rather an entire organization’s connection to the int= ernet.

 

For definition of “DDoS attack telemetry”= ;, should the word “measurements” should be used?  “= Collected measurements and behavioral characteristics…”

 

For “countermeasure”, this sounds like o= nly packet filtering. Is that accurate and complete? Could tar-pit or routi= ng changes be included in countermeasures?

 

Is “signal channel” intended to be the s= ame thing as the “session” mentioned in the architecture? I thi= nk so, and terminology should be made consistent between the docs. If not, = I don’t understand the difference between channel and session.

 

Should “Data channel” also be bidirectio= nal an mutually-authenticated, like the signal channel?

 

Should “Filter” be limited to the two ac= tions of rate-limiting or discarding?  Is filter really intended to in= clude action, or just the match criteria?

Similarly for “Blacklist”: is block the = only valid action for black-listed addresses?

 

2.

The second paragraph says “DOTS is an advisory= protocol.” I thought this might mean that (a) a client’s reque= st for aid may be ignored and (b) mitigation may be done prior to request o= r after withdrawal. Would that idea be accurate?  (My thinking is that a DOTS server may know better than the client based on a = wider source of telemetry.)

 

In 2.1,

- to GEN-002, I suggest adding that DOTS should be c= arried in a transport not susceptible to head-of-line blocking.<= /p>

 

- is GEN-003 intended to be a statement about the tr= ansport protocol being bidirectional? E.g., on the same UDP connection. If = so, please say so; otherwise it is probably OK.

 

- in GEN-004, consider picking a specific MTU size, = like 500 bytes, because otherwise there is no way to judge if the protocol = meets requirements.

 

In 2.2,

- in OP-002, we mandate session health monitoring, b= ut we haven’t so far mandated having a session, or what constitutes a= session. So I think we need an OP-002a that mandates a session and how it = shall be defined and maintained.

- In OP-003, can we choose whether security state is= shared or whether a new state is negotiated after connection? Otherwise th= e client is left guessing, it seems.

Also, I don’t know what is meant exactly by fa= te-shared security state. Please replace with a more precise description. (= It sounds like if one fails the other should fail, but I can’t believ= e you intended that.)

 

OP-004: This requirement has several ideas in it, wh= ich I think should be broken into multiple requirements:

(a)    The idea that messages be acknowledged with a statu= s code.

-       = ;   But it is unclear whether the status must be delive= red immediately, or reported later. I expect there could be an immediate &#= 8220;I hear your request”, which doesn’t necessarily mean anyth= ing can be done. There should be a way for the client to later ask, “how are you doing with that request?”

(b)   Whether the server MUST do as it is told.

-       = ;   On this point, I think the “MUST cease mitiga= tion activity” is wrong, since the server may have other evidence or = other clients requesting the mitigation. This is acknowledged by the “= ;may continue mitigating” later in the paragraph. So at minimum the MUST is too strong.

 

OP-005. Instead of wording this as a requirement on = the client, can we reword it as a requirement on the server?  E.g., &#= 8220;A DOTS server MUST be capable of accepting a mitigation lifetime, afte= r which a mitigation request is removed if not refreshed.”  This server perspective should be applied to all o= f the paragraphs.

 

OP-006. I would like to see all of specific scopes p= recisely defined as required or optional, but not as examples.

Let’s argue about which scopes are mandatory o= r optional  (or extendable) at this requirements phase.

Also, I’m not clear on what DNS name filtering= means: is this for filtering DNS packets, or for looking up the name and f= iltering the corresponding addresses?

 

OP-008. I hope there isn’t going to be an argu= ment about this, but… I believe it is not a client error to ask for a= mitigation that conflicts with another client (how could it even know?). R= ather, it is up to the server to weigh the various requests and act for the overall good. As paragraph 2 of section 2 says, &= #8220;DOTS is an advisory protocol”.

I don’t even think an overlapping prefix range= is an error; rather both clients have identified the same attack.

 

OP-009. I believe the idea is that the client may be= behind a NAT, not the server? If the server might be behind a NAT, there w= ill need to be a way to poke a hole in the NAT, either with uPnP or other m= eans. Please make this clear.

 

Are there encryption or integrity requirements for t= he signal channel?

 

DATA-001. Could one phrase this as, DOTS must be sen= t over a transport with reliable in-order delivery?

 

DATA-004. In the last paragraph there is a hint that= different clients own different address ranges. This idea needs to be bett= er defined. It isn’t clear to me that a DOTS client necessarily ̶= 0;owns” the addresses that it noticed requires mitigating. E.g., a relay doesn’t own the addresses it is passing al= ong mitigation requests about. Also, an organization might have different c= lients that can request mitigation for the same ranges, so we don’t w= ant mutually exclusive ownership.

 

 

In section 2.4, Security,

-       = ;   Authentication is described, but neither authorizat= ion nor auditing are mentioned. Regarding authorization, can different clie= nts have different privileges/capabilities? Revocation of authorization is = required too.  And auditing of requests seems like a good idea.

 

SEC-003  Does it need to prevent message replay= , or merely make replay useless? E.g., replaying idempotent operations is O= K.

 

2.5

I’m not sure what to make of this section. I t= hink I just want to review the data model.

 

3.1 This sentence is unnecessary: “The form of= that congestion control is implementation specific.”

 

3.2 Why does the data channel require in-order messa= ge delivery? I think we need to know what the messages are before making th= at decision. Keep in mind that HTTP does not provide that.

 

 

David Dolson

Senior Software Architect

Sandvine

 

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