From nobody Mon Jul 1 08:40:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ACBC1202C7; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ITMYGsN3479g; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 08:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4AD841202CD; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 08:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id x61FeXvp021872 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 1 Jul 2019 11:40:36 -0400 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 10:40:33 -0500 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com Cc: Mirja =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FChlewind?= , The IESG , Roman Danyliw , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "dots@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-dots-data-channel@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20190701154032.GB13810@kduck.mit.edu> References: <155679628494.24951.9145538661531263463.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA68C8B@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA68C8B@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?iso-8859-1?q?Mirja_K=FChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?iso-8859-1?q?f-dots-data-channel-28=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 15:40:49 -0000 Hi Mirja, Can you please let us know whether these replies address your concerns? Thanks, Ben On Thu, May 02, 2019 at 11:54:50AM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > Re-, > > Please see inline. > > Cheers, > Med > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : Mirja Kühlewind via Datatracker [mailto:noreply@ietf.org] > > Envoyé : jeudi 2 mai 2019 13:25 > > À : The IESG > > Cc : draft-ietf-dots-data-channel@ietf.org; Roman Danyliw; dots- > > chairs@ietf.org; rdd@cert.org; dots@ietf.org > > Objet : Mirja Kühlewind's Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-28: (with > > DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for > > draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-28: Discuss > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-data-channel/ > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > DISCUSS: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > I support Suresh's discuss that the process of how it is indicated if a 1 or > > 2 > > byte mask is used is not clear. However, I would additionally like to discuss > > why this bit mask is needed at all. The TCP flags field in RFC8519 is already > > defined as bits. Storing these bits in a signal 8 bit field and applying a > > matching operation is implementation specific only and doesn't require any > > changes to the YANG model. > > [Med] The motivation is similar to the one for the IPv4 flags: > > Nevertheless, > the use of 'flags' is problematic since it does not allow to define a > bitmask. For example, setting other bits not covered by the 'flags' > filtering clause in a packet will allow that packet to get through > (because it won't match the ACE). > > The use of bitmask will also ease inter-working witg BGP flowspec. > > > > > I would also quickly like to discuss the use of keep-alives as described in > > Section 3.1: "While the communication to the DOTS server is > > quiescent, the DOTS client MAY probe the server to ensure it has > > maintained cryptographic state. Such probes can also keep alive > > firewall and/or NAT bindings. A TLS heartbeat [RFC6520] verifies > > that the DOTS server still has TLS state by returning a TLS message." > > I understood that multiple requests can and should be send in the same > > connection, however, I would expect that those requests are send basically > > right after each other, such as a look-up and then change of the config. I > > don't see a need to keep up the connection for a long time otherwise. > > Especially any action performed are (other than in the signal channel case) > > not > > time critical. Therefore I would rather recommend to close and reopen > > connections and not recommend to use keep-alives at all. > > [Med] The activity of the DOTS client may be used to track/detect stale entries: > > Also, DOTS servers > may track the inactivity timeout of DOTS clients to detect stale > entries. > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > COMMENT: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Editorial comment: As alias > > [Med] The grouping "target" is defined in the data-channel, and reused in the signal channel. The name cannot be reused because it is a key of the aliases in data-channel and a node in the signal-channel. > > and migration-scope > > [Med] I guess you meant "mitigation-scope". There is no such item in the data channel. Please note that "ietf-data:target" is called in the signal-channel under mitigation-scope. > > (in the signal channel > > document) have the same fields, wouldn't it make sense to only definite it > > once > > somewhere? > > > From nobody Mon Jul 1 09:22:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8247120498; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 09:21:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iF2jiwoyGLKG; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 09:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E78B5120468; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 09:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 200116b82cd06f0044a98311ac51f103.dip.versatel-1u1.de ([2001:16b8:2cd0:6f00:44a9:8311:ac51:f103]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hhz3Q-0000uW-Vr; Mon, 01 Jul 2019 18:21:21 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 18:21:20 +0200 Cc: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" , "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" , "dots@ietf.org" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <155672175129.924.6789867477696592350.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <20190628222124.GB10013@kduck.mit.edu> To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , Benjamin Kaduk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1561998088;84d59de4; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hhz3Q-0000uW-Vr Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-?= =?utf-8?q?dots-signal-channel-31=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 16:21:57 -0000 Hi Ben, hi Tiru, Please see below. > On 29. Jun 2019, at 14:10, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy = wrote: >=20 > Please see inline >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dots On Behalf Of Benjamin Kaduk >> Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2019 3:51 AM >> To: Mirja K=C3=BChlewind >> Cc: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; = frank.xialiang@huawei.com; >> dots-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG ; dots@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-dots-signal- >> channel-31: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Hi Mirja, >>=20 >> I wanted to check in with the status of the remaining Discuss points = for this >> document. I tried to go through the previous discussions and have = made my >> own analysis of where things stand, so hopefully we can compare = notes. >>=20 >> On Wed, May 01, 2019 at 07:42:31AM -0700, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via = Datatracker >> wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> DISCUSS: >>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>=20 >>> 1) Port usage (see section 3): >>> The port request for DOTS was reviewed by the port expert team. Some >>> members of the team were concerned about the assignment of a = separate >>> port number for DOTS as Coap is used and already has a designated = port >>> number. I believe that Coap is used as a transport in the case and >>> DOTS provides a separate service compared to what Coap is usually = used >>> for, however, it is not clear why DOTS needs a designated port. >>> Section 3 says that the port can either be preconfigured or >>> dynamically detected, therefore it is not clear why a fixed port is >>> needed (see also section 7.1. of RFC7605). In the port review = process >>> the authored argued that a port is needed to differentiate the DOTS >>> service in the network. However, this is not an endorsed usage for >>> port numbers (see section 6.2. of RFC7605). Further, I believe >>> assigning a fixed port might actually add an attack vector for DOTS, >>> either by DDoSing the respective port at the DOTS server, or any = attempt >> to block DOTS traffic on the network from the DOTS client to the DOTS = server. >>=20 >> If I understand correctly you were supporting a port allocation, but = wanted >> the document to be more clear about its usage and necessity. >>=20 >> There were some text changes, so that we now have: >>=20 >> In some cases, a DOTS client and server may have mutual agreement = to >> use a specific port number, such as by explicit configuration or >> dynamic discovery [I-D.ietf-dots-server-discovery]. Absent such >> mutual agreement, the DOTS signal channel MUST run over port number >> TBD as defined in Section 9.1, for both UDP and TCP. In order to = use >> a distinct port number (as opposed to TBD), DOTS clients and = servers >> SHOULD support a configurable parameter to supply the port number = to >> use. The rationale for not using the default port number 5684 >> ((D)TLS CoAP) is to allow for differentiated behaviors in >> environments where both a DOTS gateway and an IoT gateway (e.g., >> Figure 3 of [RFC7452]) are present. >>=20 >> Does that address your concerns? I think this still leaves my original question open. I agree that using = port 5684 is no alternative. However, I still don=E2=80=99t see why a = fixed port is needed at all. In all scenarios described either the = server IP address needs to be configured or a detection mechanism is = used. In both cases this could be used to also configure or detect the = port. >>=20 >>> 2) Section 4.3 says: >>> "In reference to Figure 4, the DOTS client sends two TCP SYNs and = two >>> DTLS ClientHello messages at the same time over IPv6 and IPv4." >>> However, RFC8305 explicitly states that connection attempts SHOULD = NOT >>> be made simultaneously (see sec 5). >>>=20 >>> Further Figure 4 shows a different order of request as recommended = in >>> the text (text says: "UDP over IPv6, UDP over IPv4, TCP over IPv6, = and >>> finally TCP over IPv4"). Also why are the UDP connection attempts >>> repeated? I guess that is meant to be the retransmission of the DTLS >>> Hello? However, usually you should receive the TCP SYNACK before you >>> retransmit or in the best case even before you start the next >>> connection attempt. Therefore that should be not displayed like this = in the >> figure or needs further explanation. >>=20 >> We changed this behavior to be sequential and adhere to 8305 most of = the >> time, but allow dropping the connection attempt delay to 100ms during >> (congestive) attacks. Thanks! This is good! >>=20 >>> 3) Why are these statements SHOULDs and not MUSTs (see section 4.4)? >>> "DOTS agents SHOULD follow the data transmission guidelines = discussed >>> in Section 3.1.3 of [RFC8085] and control transmission behavior by >>> not sending more than one UDP datagram per round-trip time (RTT) = to >>> the peer DOTS agent on average." >>> and >>> "If the DOTS client cannot maintain an RTT estimate, it >>> SHOULD NOT send more than one Non-confirmable request every 3 >>> seconds" >>> as well as in section 4.4.2.1: >>> "If the DOTS server cannot maintain an RTT >>> estimate, it SHOULD NOT send more than one asynchronous = notification >>> every 3 seconds" >>> and again in section 4.4.2.2: >>> "The frequency of polling the DOTS server to get the >>> mitigation status SHOULD follow the transmission guidelines in >>> Section 3.1.3 of [RFC8085]. >>=20 >> These changes made, except for the last one, IIUC. This one is a weird MUST now because RFC8085 only gives guidelines:=20 "DOTS agents MUST follow the data transmission guidelines discussed in Section 3.1.3 of [RFC8085] and control transmission behavior by not sending more than one UDP datagram per round-trip time (RTT) to the peer DOTS agent on average.=E2=80=9D I would rather recommend something like "DOTS agents MUST not=20 sending more than one UDP datagram per round-trip time (RTT) to the peer DOTS agent on average following the data transmission guidelines = discussed in Section 3.1.3 of [RFC8085].=E2=80=9D And I think the last one (4.4.2.2) also needs a more concrete statement. >>=20 >>> However, most of the communication pattern used by DOTS rely on a >>> request/reply pattern and Coap specifies for this case that only one >>> request can be outstanding at a time (until the reply is received or >>> message is assumed to be >>> lost) (see section 4.7 and 4.2 of RFC7252) which therefore will be >>> used in this case. Only migration updates are send without reply, = and >>> here a MUST would be more appropriate. >>>=20 >>> Please also note that if there can only be one request outstanding >>> (before a reply is received) it is also not possible that requests = are >>> received out of order (see e.g. 4.4.3: "If UDP is used as transport, >>> CoAP requests may arrive out-of-order."). >>=20 >> We did get some pointers to cases in which requests may well arrive = out of >> order. In theory yes, however, this is very unlikely because you still should = only send one request per 3 seconds (or wait for a reply). >>=20 >>> 4) draft-ietf-core-hop-limit is used in section 10: >>> "The presence of DOTS gateways may lead to infinite forwarding = loops, >>> which is undesirable. To prevent and detect such loops, this >>> document uses the Hop-Limit Option." >>> This sounds like it should be required (and normative language = should >>> be used) and therefore draft-ietf-core-hop-limit should also be a >> normative reference. >>> Also draft-ietf-core-comi should probably another normative = reference. >>=20 >> hop-limit is now normative, and per Alexey's suggestion the comi = usage has >> been described inline. Okay, thanks! >>=20 >>> 5)Section 4.5.2: You give recommendations for min and max in a note, >>> however, these values should be specified normatively and in best = with a >> MUST. >>=20 >> It got changed to RECOMMENDED. (I do see you asked why there was a >> need for a maximum at all, which I don't remember seeing an answer = to.) >=20 > All the configuration parameters have min, current and max values. Okay for me. >=20 >>=20 >>> 6) Section 4.7: "the DOTS >>> agent sends a heartbeat over the signal channel to maintain its = half >>> of the channel. The DOTS agent similarly expects a heartbeat from >>> its peer DOTS agent" >>> and >>> "DOTS servers MAY trigger their heartbeat requests immediately after >>> receiving heartbeat probes from peer DOTS clients." >>> Actually heartbeat should only be send in one direction (as the = other >>> end will send an ack) and the protocol should clearly specify which >>> endpoint is responsible for triggering the ping. >>=20 >> I'm not sure I see resolution on this; do the authors still need to = answer why >> the "pong" reply cannot serve as a reverse-path heartbeat? >=20 > If the DOTS client domain is subjected to volumetric DDoS attack and = the incoming link is saturated, the pong response from the server will = not reach the client. DOTS server gets traffic from the client but = receives no responses to its ping requests indicating the client has not = detected the attack or, if an attack mitigation is in progress, it = implies the applied DDoS mitigation actions are not yet effective to = handle the DDoS attack volume. =20 Yes, I understand what heartbeat are used for. However, what you = described implies that the server should send the ping and client sends = the pong. This is fine. The text however seems to imply that both server = and client test their have connection separately and both send pings and = pongs. That doesn=E2=80=99t seem to be need. >=20 > Cheers, > -Tiru >=20 >>=20 >>> 7) sec 7.3:"To avoid DOTS signal message fragmentation and the >> subsequent >>> decreased probability of message delivery, DOTS agents MUST ensure >>> that the DTLS record MUST fit within a single datagram." >>> This should be handled by the DTLS record layer and not by DOTS that >>> works on top of DTLS (actually Coap), therefor it seems straight to >>> have a normative requirement here in the DOTS spec. Also note that = the >>> calculation provided is not valid for early data (0-RTT) as the = hello >>> messages could be transmitted in the same datagram. >>=20 >> There was some clarifying discussion here; do you still see an issue? I was wrong that DTLS helps you, however rfc7252 (soap) does and = specifies message sizes. While for Coap this is a SHOULD, you have a = MUST here. I think that is correctly and therefore it=E2=80=99s fine to = specify it normatively. Not need to change. Still I recommend to = highlight this difference! >>=20 >>> 8) Also sec 7.3: "If the path >>> MTU is not known to the DOTS server, an IP MTU of 1280 bytes = SHOULD >>> be assumed." >>> Actually this is only true for IPv6. The later note mentions that = the >>> situation is different from IPV4, however, it should probably be = made >> clear >>> from the beginning that 1280 can only be assumed for IPv6. >>=20 >> Currently we're at a MAY-level limit of 576 bytes when it's known = that IPv4 >> systems are present. I think this is okay. >>=20 >>> 9) sec 9.6: What's the registration policy for the newly created = registries? >>=20 >> Standards Action, as indicated. Yes, sorry, I did overlook that one. >>=20 >>> 10) The document should more explicitly provide more guidance about >>> when a client should start a session and what should be done (from = the >>> client side) if a session is detected as inactive (other than during >>> migration which is discussed a bit in 4.7). Is the assumption to = have >>> basically permanently an active session or connect for migration and >>> configuration requests separately at a time? >>=20 >> I think there was some clarifying text added, but please confirm if = you think it >> is sufficient. Sorry, don=E2=80=99t see where text was added. Can you provide a = pointer? Mirja >>=20 >> Thanks, >>=20 >> Ben >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Dots mailing list >> Dots@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Mon Jul 1 09:30:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95B941204E8; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 09:30:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yvBf5XRpiAXr; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 09:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 972F81204B0; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 09:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 200116b82cd06f0044a98311ac51f103.dip.versatel-1u1.de ([2001:16b8:2cd0:6f00:44a9:8311:ac51:f103]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hhzBy-00027g-Qt; Mon, 01 Jul 2019 18:30:10 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <20190701154032.GB13810@kduck.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 18:30:10 +0200 Cc: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, Roman Danyliw , "dots@ietf.org" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-dots-data-channel@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <155679628494.24951.9145538661531263463.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA68C8B@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20190701154032.GB13810@kduck.mit.edu> To: Benjamin Kaduk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1561998622;58701958; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hhzBy-00027g-Qt Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-?= =?utf-8?q?dots-data-channel-28=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 16:30:25 -0000 Hi Ben, hi Med, Please see below. > On 1. Jul 2019, at 17:40, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >=20 > Hi Mirja, >=20 > Can you please let us know whether these replies address your = concerns? >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Ben >=20 > On Thu, May 02, 2019 at 11:54:50AM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com = wrote: >> Re-, >>=20 >> Please see inline.=20 >>=20 >> Cheers, >> Med >>=20 >>> -----Message d'origine----- >>> De : Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker [mailto:noreply@ietf.org] >>> Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 2 mai 2019 13:25 >>> =C3=80 : The IESG >>> Cc : draft-ietf-dots-data-channel@ietf.org; Roman Danyliw; dots- >>> chairs@ietf.org; rdd@cert.org; dots@ietf.org >>> Objet : Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-28: (with >>> DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>>=20 >>> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for >>> draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-28: Discuss >>>=20 >>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to = all >>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this >>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-data-channel/ >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> DISCUSS: >>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>=20 >>> I support Suresh's discuss that the process of how it is indicated = if a 1 or >>> 2 >>> byte mask is used is not clear. However, I would additionally like = to discuss >>> why this bit mask is needed at all. The TCP flags field in RFC8519 = is already >>> defined as bits. Storing these bits in a signal 8 bit field and = applying a >>> matching operation is implementation specific only and doesn't = require any >>> changes to the YANG model. >>=20 >> [Med] The motivation is similar to the one for the IPv4 flags: =20 >>=20 >> Nevertheless, >> the use of 'flags' is problematic since it does not allow to define = a >> bitmask. For example, setting other bits not covered by the = 'flags' >> filtering clause in a packet will allow that packet to get through >> (because it won't match the ACE). =20 >>=20 >> The use of bitmask will also ease inter-working witg BGP flowspec. Okay, this is fine based on discussion with Suresh. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> I would also quickly like to discuss the use of keep-alives as = described in >>> Section 3.1: "While the communication to the DOTS server is >>> quiescent, the DOTS client MAY probe the server to ensure it has >>> maintained cryptographic state. Such probes can also keep alive >>> firewall and/or NAT bindings. A TLS heartbeat [RFC6520] verifies >>> that the DOTS server still has TLS state by returning a TLS = message." >>> I understood that multiple requests can and should be send in the = same >>> connection, however, I would expect that those requests are send = basically >>> right after each other, such as a look-up and then change of the = config. I >>> don't see a need to keep up the connection for a long time = otherwise. >>> Especially any action performed are (other than in the signal = channel case) >>> not >>> time critical. Therefore I would rather recommend to close and = reopen >>> connections and not recommend to use keep-alives at all. >>=20 >> [Med] The activity of the DOTS client may be used to track/detect = stale entries: >>=20 >> Also, DOTS servers >> may track the inactivity timeout of DOTS clients to detect stale >> entries. >>=20 My understanding is that this is orthogonal. You can also see that a = client is inactive when it didn=E2=80=99t open a new connection for a = certain time=E2=80=A6? Mirja >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> COMMENT: >>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>=20 >>> Editorial comment: As alias=20 >>=20 >> [Med] The grouping "target" is defined in the data-channel, and = reused in the signal channel. The name cannot be reused because it is a = key of the aliases in data-channel and a node in the signal-channel.=20 >>=20 >> and migration-scope=20 >>=20 >> [Med] I guess you meant "mitigation-scope". There is no such item in = the data channel. Please note that "ietf-data:target" is called in the = signal-channel under mitigation-scope.=20 >>=20 >> (in the signal channel >>> document) have the same fields, wouldn't it make sense to only = definite it >>> once >>> somewhere? >>>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Mon Jul 1 23:46:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70BD81201E4 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 23:46:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.047 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.047 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PRICES_ARE_AFFORDABLE=0.551, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4JG6BQ6JK8WY for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 23:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta3.chinamobile.com (cmccmta3.chinamobile.com [221.176.66.81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B0E61201CE for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 23:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.121.7]) by rmmx-syy-dmz-app10-12010 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2eea5d1afd9476e-92b22; Tue, 02 Jul 2019 14:45:40 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2eea5d1afd9476e-92b22 X-RM-TagInfo: emlType=0 X-RM-SPAM-FLAG: 00000000 Received: from cmcc-PC (unknown[10.2.51.70]) by rmsmtp-syy-appsvr04-12004 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee45d1afd932c7-e17b7; Tue, 02 Jul 2019 14:45:40 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee45d1afd932c7-e17b7 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 14:45:42 +0800 From: "MeiLing Chen" To: "Panwei (William)" , mohamed.boucadair Cc: dots References: <30E95A901DB42F44BA42D69DB20DFA6A69FA5E84@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com>, <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAADB9E@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>, <30E95A901DB42F44BA42D69DB20DFA6A69FA69EC@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com> X-Priority: 3 X-Has-Attach: no X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.2.9.115[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2019070214454218305711@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart452736216014_=----" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Some comments on draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-02 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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Hi Med,
gener= al signal cha= nnel and call home function can both exist in the same scene?
And I = am also not so clear about how data channel used in call home scenerio?
=0A
=0A
 
=0A=0A
=0A

Hi Med,

=0A

&= nbsp;

=0A

Thank you for y= our reply. For the sake of convenience, I move the discussion to the front= .

=0A

 

=0A

=0A4. In Section 4.1, it requests the = IANA to assign a separate port number to the DOTS Signal Channel Call Home= Protocol. In Section 3.3.1, it says Signal Channel Call Home can use not = only this assigned port number=0A but also some other port numbers configu= red by the administrator. So can the Signal Channel Port Number (4646) be = configured as the Signal Channel Call Home Port Number? The draft should a= dd some normative requirements about this.

=0A

=0A[Med] It is up to the client/= server to agree on the alternate port. IMO, we don=E2=80=99t need to elabo= rate on these deployment considerations.=0A

=0A

[Wei] The base spec defines that Port 4646 is us= ed for ordinary Signal Channel, if this port is also configured as Signal = Channel Call Home Port Number,=0A can the two signal channels be establish= ed simultaneously by both using Port 4646? Will these two signal channel w= ork perfectly without mutual interference? If one port is enough for using= , I don=E2=80=99t think another port need to be assigned? If different por= ts=0A are needed, then the draft should explain the reason and add some no= rmative requirements.

=0A

 

=0A

=0A= 6. For this call= home scenario, the draft doesn=E2=80=99t contain anything about data chan= nel, is the data channel omitted by mistake? Does the data channel need to= extend in the call home scenario? For the case that the=0A home gateway a= cts as both DOTS client and DOTS server simultaneously, will it need two d= ata channels just like it needs the two signal channels?=

=0A

=0A[Med] No, that = is on purpose. The data channel may fail when an attack is ongoing.=0A

=0A

[Wei] In call home sc= enario, can the DOTS server (home gateway) establish a Data Channel with t= he DOTS client (ISP or DMS) ?=0A

=0A

If can, 1) What=E2=80=99s the Call Home Data Channel used f= or? 2) How does it work? Is there any difference between Call Home Data Ch= annel and ordinary Data Channel?=0A 3) When home gateway acts both as DOTS= server and DOTS client, there are two data channels with different direct= ions, how to distinguish these two data channels? Will these two date chan= nels work perfectly without any modification to data-channel-specification= ?

=0A

If can=E2=80=99= t, Why? And How to prevent it?

=0A

 

=0A

In conclusion, my point of the above two comments is about the compati= bility between the call home scenario and basic DOTS Signal/Data Channel. = I don=E2=80=99t know=0A whether you have considered the compatibility alre= ady. If not, these my preliminary thoughts may offer some help for conside= ring about compatibility. I suggest a section can be added to clarify the = compatibility. If you allow I=E2=80=99m willing to contribute more.

=0A

 =

=0A

=0A11. In Section 4.3, is the name =E2=80=9Creq= uest-rejected=E2=80=9D good enough? Because comparing to the names of othe= r conflict causes, it seems this name can=E2=80=99t represent this specifi= c conflict case, DOTS server can =E2=80=98reject the=0A request=E2=80=99 i= n all the conflict cases.

=0A

=0A[Med] Do you have a preference? What about req= uest-rejected-legitimate-traffic?=0A

=0A

[Wei] It works for me.

=0A

 

=0A

13. In Section 3.1.1, it says =E2=80=9Cthe DOTS client MUST validate that attacker pref= ixes are=0A within the scope of the DOTS server domain=E2=80=9D. But how should t= he DOTS client know the scope of each DOTS server domain?=0A

=0A

[Med] Following similar means for a dots server to do= that validation in the base spec.=0A

=0A

[Wei] OK, I=E2=80=99ll check the base spec for details= . Maybe you can also add some references or guidance to the base spec in t= he call home draft.

=0A

 

=0A

&n= bsp;

=0A
=0A

Regards & Thanks!

=0A

=E6=BD=98=E4=BC=9F Wei Pan

=0A

=E5=8D=8E=E4=B8=BA=E6=8A=80=E6=9C=AF=E6=9C=89=E9=99=90=E5=85= =AC=E5=8F=B8 Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd.

=0A=0A

 

=0A
=0A

From:= mohamed.boucadair@orange.com [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com]=0A
= =0ASent: Wednesday, June 26, 2019 5:50 PM
=0ATo: Panwei (= William) <william.panwei@huawei.com>; dots <dots@ietf.org>
= =0ASubject: RE: Some comments on draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-0= 2

=0A
=0A
=0A

<= o:p> 

=0A

Hi Pan,

=0A

 

=0A

Thank you for the comments.<= /span>

=0A

Please see i= nline.

=0A

 

=0A

<= span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New",serif;c= olor:black">Cheers,

=0A

Med

=0A

 

=0A
=0A
=0A=
=0A

De := Dots [mailto:dots-bo= unces@ietf.org]=0ADe la part de Panwei (William)
=0AEnvoy= =C3=A9 : mercredi 26 juin 2019 10:25
=0A=C3=80 : d= ots
=0AObjet : [Dots] Some comments on draft-ietf-dots-sign= al-call-home-02

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=0A
=0A

 

=0A

Hi authors,

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I=E2=80=99ve read the late= st version draft, and I have the following comments:

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=0A

=0ASome nits:

=0A

= =0A1. In Section= 1.1, the second paragraph, s/at affordable price/at affordable prices/.

=0A

=0A2. In Section 1.1, the seco= nd last paragraph, s/a IPv6 home network/an IPv6 home network/.=

=0A

=0A3. In Section 2, the reference I-D.ie= tf-dots-requirements should be changed to RFC8612.

= =0A

=0A4. In Section 3.3..1, Figure 4 and Figure 5, s/N= AT Embeded in a CPE/NAT Embedded in a CPE/.

=0A

=0A5. In section 5, the third paragraph, s/inspect all the t= raffic from the compromised to the target/inspect all the traffic from the= compromised device to the target/.

=0A

=0A 

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=0A[Med] Fixed. Thanks

=0A

=0A=  

=0A

=0AComments:

=0A

=0A1. The Section 3.3.1 contains three things= : the new parameters of the mitigation request, the considerations of NAT = deployment, the extension of conflict-clause. These 3 things make this sec= tion too long. For a=0A better structure and readability, my suggestion is= to split this section into 3 sections, or at least to put the NAT conside= rations into a separate section.

=0A

=0A 

=0A

=0A[Med] OK to moved address sharing consideration= s into a separate section.=0A

=0A

=0A 

=0A

=0A2. In Section 3.3..1, when describing the source-port-range, i= t says:

=0A

=0AFor TCP, UDP= , Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP)

=0A

=0A[RFC4960], or Datagram Congestion Control Protoc= ol (DCCP)

=0A

=0A<= span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Courier;color:black">[RFC4340],= a range of ports can be, for example, 0-1023,

=0A

=0A1024-65535, or 1024-49151.=0A

=0AMy understanding of these 3 examples is that th= ey want to show the readers the ports can range from 0 to 65535. It=E2=80= =99s better to say this explicitly before listing the examples.=

=0A

=0A&nb= sp;

=0A

=0A=0A 

= =0A

=0A3. In Section 3.3..1, it uses =E2=80=98source-ic= mp-type=E2=80=99 when explaining this new parameter, while other places us= ing =E2=80=98source-icmp-type-range=E2=80=99. I think =E2=80=98source-icmp= -type-range=E2=80=99 should be used here too.

=0A

=0A[Med] Thank you for catchi= ng this. Fixed.=0A

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=0A 

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=0A4. In Section 4.1, it requests the IANA to assign a separate port number = to the DOTS Signal Channel Call Home Protocol. In Section 3.3.1, it says S= ignal Channel Call Home can use not only this assigned port number=0A but = also some other port numbers configured by the administrator. So can the S= ignal Channel Port Number (4646) be configured as the Signal Channel Call = Home Port Number? The draft should add some normative requirements about t= his.

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=0A 

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= =0A[Med] It is up to the client/server to agree on the altern= ate port. IMO, we don=E2=80=99t need to elaborate on these deployment cons= iderations.=0A

=0A

=0A 

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=0A5. = In Section 3.3..1, it says =E2=80=98source-prefix=E2=80=99 is an optional = attribute, and it also says:

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=0AThe =E2=80=99source-prefix=E2=80=99 parameter is a mandatory attr= ibute when the

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=0Aattac= k traffic information is signaled by a DOTS client in the Call<= /span>

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=0AHome scenario.

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 =

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[Med] It is= an optional attribute with regards to the base signal spec, but it is man= datory when used in the call home=0A scenario.  =0A

 

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=0A5.1. Can the ordinary signal channel use = the call home extension? For example, if the signal channel is established= by using the Signal Channel Port Number (4646), can the mitigation reques= t contain the source-prefix,=0A source-port-range and source-icmp-type-ran= ge? (I guess YES, so for ordinary signal channel these parameters are opti= onal)

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=0A 

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=0A[Med] Yes, this is why these attributes are said to be op= tional.=0A

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=0A=  

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=0A5.2. = Can the call home signal channel not use the call home extension? For exam= ple, if the signal channel is established by using the Signal Channel Call= Home Port Number (4647), can the mitigation request not contain=0A the so= urce-prefix? (I guess NO, so for call home signal channel the =E2=80=99sou= rce-prefix=E2=80=98 is mandatory)

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=0A 

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=0A[Med] The source-prefix is ma= ndatory when used in call home.=0A

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=0A 

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=0A5.3. Even if the ordinary signal channel can use the call= home extension, a separate call home signal channel can also be helpful f= or the case that home gateway acts as both DOTS client and DOTS server sim= ultaneously.=0A Any other reasons to invent the separate call home signal = channel?

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=0A 

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=0A[Med] The home gateway will need to maintain two signa= l sessions as a function of its DOTS agent role.=0A

= =0A

=0A 

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=0A5.4. How to identify the =E2=80=98Call = Home scenario=E2=80=99 ? By the signal channel port number?

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=0A[Med] Yes, but also in the reversal of (D)TLS role= s.=0A

=0A

=0A 

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=0A5.5. I prefer to make all the above thing= s explicit and clear in the draft.

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=0A[Med] Will double check the text.=0A<= o:p>

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=0A=0A6. For this call h= ome scenario, the draft doesn=E2=80=99t contain anything about data channe= l, is the data channel omitted by mistake? Does the data channel need to e= xtend in the call home scenario? For the case that the=0A home gateway act= s as both DOTS client and DOTS server simultaneously, will it need two dat= a channels just like it needs the two signal channels?=0A

=0A =

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=0A[Med] No= , that is on purpose. The data channel may fail when an attack is ongoing.= =0A

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=0A 

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= =0A7. In Section= 4.2, it says:

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=0AThis = specification registers the =E2=80=99source-prefix=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=99s= ource-port-

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= =0Arange= =E2=80=99 parameters in the IANA "DOTS Signal Channel CBOR Mappings"<= /o:p>

=0A

=0Aregistry established by [= I-D.ietf-dots-signal-channel].

=0A

=0AHere mentions =E2=80=98source-prefix=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98source-port= -range=E2=80=99, but the =E2=80=98source-icmp-type-range=E2=80=99 is missi= ng.

=0A

=0A 

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= =0A[Med] Good catch.=0A

=0A

=0A 

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=0A8. In Section 4.2, the IANA registry =E2=80=9CDOTS Sign= al Channel CBOR Mappings=E2=80=9D can=E2=80=99t be find in the signal chan= nel draft by searching the quoted name directly.. (Should be =E2=80=9CDOTS= Signal Channel CBOR Key Values=E2=80=9D?)

=0A

=0A[Med] Agree. Fixed.=0A

=0A

=0A 

=0A

=0A9. In Section 4.2, the t= able is better to be given a number and name. In terms of format, this tab= le matches Table 4 of the signal channel draft, and doesn't match any of t= he IANA registries of the signal channel=0A draft.

= =0A

=0A[Med] OK.

=0A

=0A&n= bsp;

=0A

=0A10. In Section 4.3, the reg= istry name should be =E2=80=9CDOTS Signal Channel Conflict Cause Codes=E2= =80=9D (this name is from the signal channel draft).

= =0A

=0A[Med] Fixed.

=0A

=0A 

=0A

=0A11. In Section 4.3, is t= he name =E2=80=9Crequest-rejected=E2=80=9D good enough? Because comparing = to the names of other conflict causes, it seems this name can=E2=80=99t re= present this specific conflict case, DOTS server can =E2=80=98reject the= =0A request=E2=80=99 in all the conflict cases.

=0A=0A[Med] Do you have a pref= erence? What about request-rejected-legitimate-traffic?=0A

=0A

=0A 

=0A

=0A12. In NAT considerations of Sect= ion 3.3.1, for the case that the NAT translator deployed in the source net= work, the DOTS client should send the external IP address of the attacker = and the DOTS server should find=0A the correspondent internal IP address. = Comparing to the CGN case, I suggest that some normative words can also be= used here.

=0A

= =0A[Med] Will double check the language.=0A=

=0A

=0A 

=0A

13. In Section 3.1.1, it says =E2=80= =9Cthe DOTS cl= ient MUST validate that attacker prefixes are=0A within the scope of the D= OTS server domain=E2=80=9D. But how should the DOTS client know the scope of each D= OTS server domain?=0A=

=0A

[Med] Following si= milar means for a dots server to do that validation in the base spec.=0A

=0A

 

=0A

In the call home scenario= , there might be tens of thousands of DOTS servers, are there some easy me= thods to let the DOTS client know the scope of=0A each DOTS server domain?= In addition, I think this is critical for deploying DOTS call home, and w= e need to address this in the draft.

=0A

=0A 

=0A

Regards & Thanks!

=0A

=E6=BD=98=E4=BC=9F<= span style=3D"font-family:"Gadugi",sans-serif;color:black"> Wei = Pan

=0A

=E5=8D=8E= =E4=B8=BA=E6=8A=80=E6=9C=AF=E6=9C=89=E9=99=90=E5=85=AC=E5=8F=B8 Huawei = Technologies Co., Ltd.

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2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6921712001E; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 01:28:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GllBgdfDAGUG; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 01:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E68B12001B; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 01:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar02.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.4]) by opfedar22.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45dHT24wQCz2yJW; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 10:28:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.98]) by opfedar02.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45dHT23QBSzCqkM; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 10:28:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM7F.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::d9:d3cd:85bd:d331%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 10:28:54 +0200 From: To: Benjamin Kaduk CC: The IESG , "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" , "dots@ietf.org" , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: additional remaining items for draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31 Thread-Index: AQHVLjALcPOxQ2v8VkC8/aP/z5+7kKa27pPQ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 08:28:54 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB0DC2@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <20190629040618.GJ10013@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20190629040618.GJ10013@kduck.mit.edu> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] additional remaining items for draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 08:28:59 -0000 Hi Ben,=20 Please see inline.=20 Cheers, Tiru & Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De : Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu] > Envoy=E9 : samedi 29 juin 2019 06:06 > =C0 : draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org > Cc : The IESG; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; dots- > chairs@ietf.org > Objet : Re: additional remaining items for draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel= - > 31 >=20 > On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 05:21:24PM -0500, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > > Hi Mirja, > > > > I wanted to check in with the status of the remaining Discuss points fo= r > > this document. I tried to go through the previous discussions and have > > made my own analysis of where things stand, so hopefully we can compare > > notes. >=20 > In addition to Mirja's pending Discuss position, there are some other > points that we should probably update in the document from other IESG > review comments. >=20 > I still need to ensure that the dots-signal-reg-review@ietf.org list > exists > in time for it to be used for registration requests. >=20 > The order of the If-Match: and Content-Format: header fields changed > between the -31 and the -34; is that order important? [Med] No, that change was made for the reader's convenience (place the cont= ent format near the payload). (PS: because a delta option number is used, t= he coap library will sort the options in ascending order of their option nu= mber). =20 >=20 > Section 4.7 added text: >=20 > If the DOTS server receives traffic from the peer DOTS client (e.g., > peer DOTS client initiated heartbeats) but maximum 'missing-hb- > allowed' threshold is reached, the DOTS server MUST NOT consider the > DOTS signal channel session disconnected. The DOTS server MUST keep > on using the current DOTS signal channel session so that the DOTS > client can send mitigation requests over the current DOTS signal > channel session. In this case, the DOTS server can identify the DOTS > client is under attack and the inbound link to the DOTS client > (domain) is saturated. Furthermore, if the DOTS server does not > receive a mitigation request from the DOTS client, it implies the > DOTS client has not detected the attack or, if an attack mitigation > is in progress, it implies the applied DDoS mitigation actions are > not yet effective to handle the DDoS attack volume. >=20 > Is the server supposed to start mitigation when it identifies that the > client is under attack but the client has not requested mitigation? [Med] No, an explicit mitigation is still required from the client (the sig= nal channel is not lost).=20 >=20 > RFC 8305 needs to be normative since we use its rules for connection > attempts. [Med] OK.=20 >=20 > I still think that section 6 (in addition to the current "Note: > implementors must check" text) should specifically call out that the CBOR > and JSON types for enumerateds and the 64-bit quantities can differ in > surprising ways depending on the encoder used, as a potential hazard to > use > caution with. [Med] Will add a note.=20 >=20 > Section 4.4.1 lists a recommended procedure for 'cuid' generation: >=20 > For the reasons discussed in Appendix A, implementations SHOULD > set 'cuid' to the output of a cryptographic hash algorithm > whose input is the Distinguished Encoding Rules (DER)-encoded > Abstract Syntax Notation One (ASN.1) representation of the > Subject Public Key Info (SPKI) of the DOTS client X.509 > certificate [RFC5280], the DOTS client raw public key > [RFC7250], or the "Pre-Shared Key (PSK) identity" used by the > DOTS client in the TLS ClientKeyExchange message. In this > version of the specification, the cryptographic hash algorithm > used is SHA-256 [RFC6234]. The output of the cryptographic > hash algorithm is truncated to 16 bytes; truncation is done by > stripping off the final 16 bytes. The truncated output is > base64url encoded (Section 5 of [RFC4648]) with the trailing > "=3D" removed from the encoding. >=20 > In the ballot discussion we heard that all parts of this are just > recommendations (i.e., there is no requirement to base64 or strip padding > or use SHA-256, etc.). This could perhaps be clarified by changing to: >=20 > For the reasons discussed in Appendix A, implementations SHOULD set > 'cuid' > using the following procedure: first, the Distinguished Encoding Rule= s > (DER)-encoded Abstract Syntax Notation One (ASN.1) representation of > the > Subject Public Key Info (SPKI) of the DOTS client X.509 certificate > [RFC5280], the DOTS client raw public key [RFC7250], or the "Pre- > Shared Key > (PSK) identity" used by the DOTS client in the TLS ClientKeyExchange > message is input to the SHA-256 [RFC6234] cryptographic hash. Then, > the output of the cryptographic hash algorithm is truncated to 16 > bytes; truncation is done by stripping off the final 16 bytes. The > truncated output is base64url encoded (Section 5 of [RFC4648]) with > the > trailing "=3D" removed from the encoding, and the resulting value use= d > as > the 'cuid'. >=20 > which makes very clear that the "SHOULD" applies to the entire procedure, > and not just to the "output of a cryptographic hash algorithm" with the > normativity of the other steps being less well specified. (This also > inlines the use of SHA-256, since this is the only specification we're > talking about.) [Med] OK. >=20 > Mirja had a note about the retry-timer and the 45-second addition. IIUC > the mitgation remains deactivated for the entire retry-timer plus 45 > seconds and then is deleted afterwards, [Med] Yes.=20 If the DOTS server decides to maintain a state for the deactivated mitigation request, the DOTS server updates the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ lifetime of the deactivated mitigation request to (retry-timer ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ + 45 seconds) so that the DOTS client can refresh the ^^^^^^^^^^^^ deactivated mitigation request after 'retry-timer' seconds, but before the expiry of the lifetime, and check if the conflict is resolved. We can add this NEW text to be more explicit (but IMHO, this will be redund= ant): NEW: Note that the mitigation request remains deactivated for the entire duration of (retry-timer + 45 seconds). but I think Mirja would still like > that behavior clarified in the text. >=20 > The ballot discussions indicated that we needed some text about using > Non-Confirmable messages because that overrides behavior in RFC 7641; we > should be more explicit that we are overriding that behavior. [Med] We do have this text:=20 Unidirectional mitigation notifications within the bidirectional signal channel enables asynchronous notifications between the agents. [RFC7641] indicates that (1) a notification can be sent in a ^^^^^^^^ Confirmable or a Non-confirmable message, and (2) the message type used is typically application-dependent and may be determined by the server for each notification individually. For DOTS server application, the message type MUST always be set to Non-confirmable ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ = =20 even if the underlying COAP library elects a notification to be sent ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ in a Confirmable message. We can add this NEW text: =20 This overrides the behavior defined in Section 4.5 of [RFC7641] to send a Confirmable message instead of a Non-confirmable message at least every 24 hour for the following reasons: First, the DOTS signal channel uses a heartbeat mechanism to determine if the DOTS client is alive. Second, Confirmable messages are not suitable during an attack. >=20 > The question of whether the active-but-terminating period is hard-capped > at > 300 seconds seems to remain unanswered. [Med] It is. The text says the following: "... the active-but-terminating period up to a maximum of 300 seconds (5 minutes)." >=20 > In section 4.5 the mention of CoAP ping/pong was removed but no > clarification or pointer to 7252 section 4.2 was added (which was > requested > by one of the reviews). [Med] That comment was addressed by this text in Section 4.5.2: Section 4.2 of [RFC7252] defines a "CoAP Ping" mechanism. Concretely, the DOTS agent sends an Empty Confirmable message and the peer DOTS agent will respond by sending a Reset message.=20 >=20 > There's also a couple typos left: >=20 > s/implictily/implicitly/ >=20 > s/10 mn/10 min/ >=20 [Med] Fixed in my local copy. =20 > Thanks for all the great work getting this document over the finish line! >=20 > -Ben From nobody Tue Jul 2 02:38:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4503412004F; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 02:38:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id keAvG0LNOTZz; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 02:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 430F412003F; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 02:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr02.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.66]) by opfednr23.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45dK1Y3jbrz5wN4; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 11:38:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.64]) by opfednr02.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45dK1Y2nT2z8sYc; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 11:38:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::90fe:7dc1:fb15:a02b%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 11:38:41 +0200 From: To: Mirja Kuehlewind , "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , Benjamin Kaduk CC: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" , "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" , "dots@ietf.org" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W0RvdHNdICBNaXJqYSBLw7xobGV3aW5kJ3MgRGlzY3VzcyBvbiBkcmFmdC1p?= =?utf-8?B?ZXRmLWRvdHMtc2lnbmFsLWNoYW5uZWwtMzE6ICh3aXRoIERJU0NVU1MgYW5k?= =?utf-8?Q?_COMMENT)?= Thread-Index: AQHVMCkcfK5/Kpc8U06ofujg6QywKaa3Dadg Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 09:38:40 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB0EA4@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <155672175129.924.6789867477696592350.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <20190628222124.GB10013@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-?= =?utf-8?q?dots-signal-channel-31=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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dGhlIGNsaWVudCwgaW5jbHVkaW5nIGJhc2ljDQogICBtaXRpZ2F0aW9uIGZlZWRiYWNrIGRldGFp bHMuICBNaXRpZ2F0aW9uIHJlbWFpbnMgYWN0aXZlIHVudGlsIHRoZQ0KICAgRE9UUyBjbGllbnQg ZXhwbGljaXRseSB0ZXJtaW5hdGVzIG1pdGlnYXRpb24sIG9yIHRoZSBtaXRpZ2F0aW9uDQogICBs aWZldGltZSBleHBpcmVzLiAgQWxzbywgdGhlIERPVFMgc2VydmVyIG1heSByZWx5IG9uIHRoZSBz aWduYWwNCiAgIGNoYW5uZWwgc2Vzc2lvbiBsb3NzIHRvIHRyaWdnZXIgbWl0aWdhdGlvbiBmb3Ig cHJlLWNvbmZpZ3VyZWQNCiAgIG1pdGlnYXRpb24gcmVxdWVzdHMgKGlmIGFueSkuDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Jul 2 04:16:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE388120230 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 04:16:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PRICES_ARE_AFFORDABLE=0.551, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, 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boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB1F7COPEXCAUBMA2corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Some comments on draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-02 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 11:16:04 -0000 --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB1F7COPEXCAUBMA2corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgV2VpLA0KDQpQbGVhc2Ugc2VlIGlubGluZS4NCg0KQ2hlZXJzLA0KTWVkDQoNCkRlIDogRG90 cyBbbWFpbHRvOmRvdHMtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gRGUgbGEgcGFydCBkZSBQYW53ZWkgKFdp bGxpYW0pDQpFbnZvecOpIDogamV1ZGkgMjcganVpbiAyMDE5IDA5OjQ5DQrDgCA6IEJPVUNBREFJ UiBNb2hhbWVkIFRHSS9PTE4NCkNjIDogZG90cw0KT2JqZXQgOiBSZTogW0RvdHNdIFNvbWUgY29t bWVudHMgb24gZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1kb3RzLXNpZ25hbC1jYWxsLWhvbWUtMDINCg0KSGkgTWVkLA0K DQpUaGFuayB5b3UgZm9yIHlvdXIgcmVwbHkuIEZvciB0aGUgc2FrZSBvZiBjb252ZW5pZW5jZSwg SSBtb3ZlIHRoZSBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIHRvIHRoZSBmcm9udC4NCg0KNC4gSW4gU2VjdGlvbiA0LjEs IGl0IHJlcXVlc3RzIHRoZSBJQU5BIHRvIGFzc2lnbiBhIHNlcGFyYXRlIHBvcnQgbnVtYmVyIHRv IHRoZSBET1RTIFNpZ25hbCBDaGFubmVsIENhbGwgSG9tZSBQcm90b2NvbC4gSW4gU2VjdGlvbiAz 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(PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F730120045 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 04:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar02.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.4]) by opfedar24.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45dMMK3QQLz5wK8; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 13:24:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.98]) by opfedar02.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45dMMK2SZzzCqkh; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 13:24:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM7F.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::d9:d3cd:85bd:d331%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 13:24:13 +0200 From: To: MeiLing Chen , "Panwei (William)" CC: dots Thread-Topic: Re: [Dots] Some comments on draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-02 Thread-Index: AQHVMKHQohvCJWhFd0+MU75O3m3KT6a3LdaA Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 11:24:11 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB1FA4@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <30E95A901DB42F44BA42D69DB20DFA6A69FA5E84@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com>, <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAADB9E@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>, <30E95A901DB42F44BA42D69DB20DFA6A69FA69EC@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com> <2019070214454218305711@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: <2019070214454218305711@chinamobile.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB1FA4OPEXCAUBMA2corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Some comments on draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-02 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 814CD12009E; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 07:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 200116b82c0abb008104c3e4d35e4aa2.dip.versatel-1u1.de ([2001:16b8:2c0a:bb00:8104:c3e4:d35e:4aa2]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hiJKj-0000Hn-4y; Tue, 02 Jul 2019 16:00:33 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB0EA4@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 16:00:30 +0200 Cc: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , Benjamin Kaduk , "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" , "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" , "dots@ietf.org" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <35E40EAD-6D7B-4DE7-A9C9-5358AF566AFA@kuehlewind.net> References: <155672175129.924.6789867477696592350.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <20190628222124.GB10013@kduck.mit.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB0EA4@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1562076039;7b7d9a79; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hiJKj-0000Hn-4y Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-?= =?utf-8?q?dots-signal-channel-31=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 14:00:43 -0000 Hi Med, See below. > On 2. Jul 2019, at 11:38, = wrote: >=20 > Hi Mirja, all, >=20 > (removing resolved items). >=20 > Please see inline.=20 >=20 > Cheers, > Tiru & Med >=20 >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] >> Envoy=C3=A9 : lundi 1 juillet 2019 18:21 >> =C3=80 : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk >> Cc : draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; = frank.xialiang@huawei.com; >> dots@ietf.org; The IESG; dots-chairs@ietf.org >> Objet : Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-dots-signal- >> channel-31: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>=20 >> Hi Ben, hi Tiru, >>=20 >> Please see below. >>=20 >>> On 29. Jun 2019, at 14:10, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >> wrote: >>>=20 >>> Please see inline >>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Dots On Behalf Of Benjamin Kaduk >>>> Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2019 3:51 AM >>>> To: Mirja K=C3=BChlewind >>>> Cc: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; = frank.xialiang@huawei.com; >>>> dots-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG ; dots@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-dots- >> signal- >>>> channel-31: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Mirja, >>>>=20 >>>> I wanted to check in with the status of the remaining Discuss = points >> for this >>>> document. I tried to go through the previous discussions and have = made >> my >>>> own analysis of where things stand, so hopefully we can compare = notes. >>>>=20 >>>> On Wed, May 01, 2019 at 07:42:31AM -0700, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via >> Datatracker >>>> wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> DISCUSS: >>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>=20 >>>>> 1) Port usage (see section 3): >>>>> The port request for DOTS was reviewed by the port expert team. = Some >>>>> members of the team were concerned about the assignment of a = separate >>>>> port number for DOTS as Coap is used and already has a designated = port >>>>> number. I believe that Coap is used as a transport in the case and >>>>> DOTS provides a separate service compared to what Coap is usually = used >>>>> for, however, it is not clear why DOTS needs a designated port. >>>>> Section 3 says that the port can either be preconfigured or >>>>> dynamically detected, therefore it is not clear why a fixed port = is >>>>> needed (see also section 7.1. of RFC7605). In the port review = process >>>>> the authored argued that a port is needed to differentiate the = DOTS >>>>> service in the network. However, this is not an endorsed usage for >>>>> port numbers (see section 6.2. of RFC7605). Further, I believe >>>>> assigning a fixed port might actually add an attack vector for = DOTS, >>>>> either by DDoSing the respective port at the DOTS server, or any >> attempt >>>> to block DOTS traffic on the network from the DOTS client to the = DOTS >> server. >>>>=20 >>>> If I understand correctly you were supporting a port allocation, = but >> wanted >>>> the document to be more clear about its usage and necessity. >>>>=20 >>>> There were some text changes, so that we now have: >>>>=20 >>>> In some cases, a DOTS client and server may have mutual agreement = to >>>> use a specific port number, such as by explicit configuration or >>>> dynamic discovery [I-D.ietf-dots-server-discovery]. Absent such >>>> mutual agreement, the DOTS signal channel MUST run over port = number >>>> TBD as defined in Section 9.1, for both UDP and TCP. In order to = use >>>> a distinct port number (as opposed to TBD), DOTS clients and = servers >>>> SHOULD support a configurable parameter to supply the port number = to >>>> use. The rationale for not using the default port number 5684 >>>> ((D)TLS CoAP) is to allow for differentiated behaviors in >>>> environments where both a DOTS gateway and an IoT gateway (e.g., >>>> Figure 3 of [RFC7452]) are present. >>>>=20 >>>> Does that address your concerns? >>=20 >> I think this still leaves my original question open. I agree that = using >> port 5684 is no alternative. However, I still don=E2=80=99t see why a = fixed port >> is needed at all. In all scenarios described either the server IP = address >> needs to be configured or a detection mechanism is used. In both = cases >> this could be used to also configure or detect the port. >>=20 >=20 > [Med] This comment would apply to other protocols as well such as SIP = (for which more than one port was assigned), TURN (2 ports assigned), = etc. The same reasons for allocating ports for those protocols would = apply for DOTS. The protocols have good reason for a fixed port. E.g. SIP contact = information can be guessed/derived from other information but then a = known port is needed. Turns need to avoid conflicts with other ports. = None of these kind of reason are true for dots, as the IP address needs = always to be discovered or configured any in both cases I don=E2=80=99t = see a reason why the port number cannot be identified in the same = process. >=20 > Having a fixed port allows for minimal setup for DOTS session = establishment. I don=E2=80=99t see configuring an IP more minimal than configuring an = IP and a port number. > Moreover, the fixed port allocation helps with default settings such = as on-path firewalls. =20 This is dangerous because it opens exactly a port you want to protect. = It=E2=80=99s also not recommended to use port number to identify network = traffic, see also rfc7605 section 6.2. >=20 > The specification does not mandate a discovery mechanism. Furthermore, = the server IP address may not be required to be explicitly configured if = (1) an anycast address is assigned for DOTS, I don=E2=80=99t see this draft requesting an assignment of an anycast = address. So I guess this anycast address need to be configured as well? > (2) if the client assumes that its default router is its DOTS server = (e.g., LAN scenarios with DOTS gateways on CPEs), This is also not discussed in this draft=E2=80=A6? > or (3) redirect for which this specification returns only an alternate = IP address (but not any alternate port number). Then you would need to add port information to the redirect. >=20 > Even if a way (e.g., DHCP) is used to configure the IP address, DHCP = options are not designed to provision a port number. You may check the = list at: = https://www.iana.org/assignments/bootp-dhcp-parameters/bootp-dhcp-paramete= rs.xhtml I=E2=80=99m not an expert her but I guess you could even design a new = DHCP option that includes a port number. >=20 > If the DDoS attack is targeting the victim's infrastructure, the DNS = server may not be reachable or available. >=20 > We need to accommodate a variety of target deployment scenarios, hence = this request.=20 Yes, but now of them seem to ned fixed port number to me because you can = always find a way to discover the IP and the port in the same step. If there is a good reason for dots to have a fixed port instead of using = dynamic ports, I=E2=80=99m happy to assign one but you didn=E2=80=99t = really provide me a reason yet. Also please note my initial point that use of a fixed port makes it = easier to attack the dots service and traffic directly. If you want to = open a firewall for dots traffic specifically, it is safer to configure = your firewall based on the port used in the specific deployment setup = than using a fixed port for all dots services everywhere. >=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> 3) Why are these statements SHOULDs and not MUSTs (see section = 4.4)? >>>>> "DOTS agents SHOULD follow the data transmission guidelines = discussed >>>>> in Section 3.1.3 of [RFC8085] and control transmission behavior = by >>>>> not sending more than one UDP datagram per round-trip time (RTT) = to >>>>> the peer DOTS agent on average." >>>>> and >>>>> "If the DOTS client cannot maintain an RTT estimate, it >>>>> SHOULD NOT send more than one Non-confirmable request every 3 >>>>> seconds" >>>>> as well as in section 4.4.2.1: >>>>> "If the DOTS server cannot maintain an RTT >>>>> estimate, it SHOULD NOT send more than one asynchronous = notification >>>>> every 3 seconds" >>>>> and again in section 4.4.2.2: >>>>> "The frequency of polling the DOTS server to get the >>>>> mitigation status SHOULD follow the transmission guidelines in >>>>> Section 3.1.3 of [RFC8085]. >>>>=20 >>>> These changes made, except for the last one, IIUC. >>=20 >> This one is a weird MUST now because RFC8085 only gives guidelines: >> "DOTS agents MUST follow the data transmission guidelines discussed = in >> Section 3.1.3 of [RFC8085] and control transmission behavior by not >> sending more than one UDP datagram per round-trip time (RTT) to the >> peer DOTS agent on average.=E2=80=9D >>=20 >> I would rather recommend something like >> "DOTS agents MUST not >> sending more than one UDP datagram per round-trip time (RTT) to the >> peer DOTS agent on average following the data transmission = guidelines >> discussed in Section 3.1.3 of [RFC8085].=E2=80=9D >>=20 >=20 > [Med] OK.=20 Great. >=20 >> And I think the last one (4.4.2.2) also needs a more concrete = statement. >>=20 >=20 > [Med] Can be updated as follows:=20 >=20 > OLD: > Absent such policy, the frequency of polling the DOTS server to get > the mitigation status SHOULD follow the transmission guidelines in > Section 3.1.3 of [RFC8085]. >=20 > NEW: > Absent such policy, the frequency of polling the DOTS server to get > the mitigation status SHOULD NOT be more than one UDP datagram per = RTT > as discussed in Section 3.1.3 of [RFC8085]. >=20 > (Note: SHOULD is used here because of a comment from Alissa related to = a similar wording). Actually, that actually a good point. I think the minimum polling = frequency must always be one datagram per RTT. I think no policy should = be allowed to have a smaller frequency. What would be the reason to poll = more often? >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> 6) Section 4.7: "the DOTS >>>>> agent sends a heartbeat over the signal channel to maintain its = half >>>>> of the channel. The DOTS agent similarly expects a heartbeat = from >>>>> its peer DOTS agent" >>>>> and >>>>> "DOTS servers MAY trigger their heartbeat requests immediately = after >>>>> receiving heartbeat probes from peer DOTS clients." >>>>> Actually heartbeat should only be send in one direction (as the = other >>>>> end will send an ack) and the protocol should clearly specify = which >>>>> endpoint is responsible for triggering the ping. >>>>=20 >>>> I'm not sure I see resolution on this; do the authors still need to >> answer why >>>> the "pong" reply cannot serve as a reverse-path heartbeat? >>>=20 >>> If the DOTS client domain is subjected to volumetric DDoS attack and = the >> incoming link is saturated, the pong response from the server will = not >> reach the client. DOTS server gets traffic from the client but = receives no >> responses to its ping requests indicating the client has not detected = the >> attack or, if an attack mitigation is in progress, it implies the = applied >> DDoS mitigation actions are not yet effective to handle the DDoS = attack >> volume. >>=20 >> Yes, I understand what heartbeat are used for. However, what you = described >> implies that the server should send the ping and client sends the = pong. >> This is fine. >=20 > [Med] Choosing the other way around may be problematic because of = NAT/FWs. This is why the heartbeats from the server will fly right after = the one from the client so that we can use the warm mappings. Having = both directions allows to accommodate the scenario described by Tiru. >=20 > As you know, RFC4787 mandates the NAT outbound refresh behavior = (packets go from the internal side of the NAT to the external side of = the NAT to refresh the timer value) but not the NAT inbound refresh = behavior. >=20 > The text however seems to imply that both server and client >> test their have connection separately and both send pings and pongs. = That >> doesn=E2=80=99t seem to be need. >=20 > [Med] In addition to the clarification above, we have also added a = pointer to this part of 8085:=20 >=20 > =3D=3D > A UDP application with a long-lived association between the sender > and receiver, ought to be designed so that the sender periodically > checks that the receiver still wants ("consents") to receive traffic > and need to be designed to stop if there is no explicit confirmation > of this [RFC7675]. Applications that require communications in two > directions to implement protocol functions (such as reliability or > congestion control) will need to independently check both directions > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ = =20 > of communication, and may have to exchange keep-alive messages to > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > traverse middleboxes (see Section 3.5). > =3D=3D Yes, you use keep-alive messages here. A ping on one direction and a = pong/ack as reply in the direction. I=E2=80=99m not we are maybe talking = past each other=E2=80=A6 I think the following is sufficient Client ping =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94> <=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 server pong While what I read from the document is that you do this: Client ping =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94> <=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 server pong <=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 server ping Client pong =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94> If that is not what your are doing you need to clarify this in the = document.=20 If you actually want to have two different ping/pong=E2=80=99s you need = to explain me why you need both. >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> 7) sec 7.3:"To avoid DOTS signal message fragmentation and the >>>> subsequent >>>>> decreased probability of message delivery, DOTS agents MUST = ensure >>>>> that the DTLS record MUST fit within a single datagram." >>>>> This should be handled by the DTLS record layer and not by DOTS = that >>>>> works on top of DTLS (actually Coap), therefor it seems straight = to >>>>> have a normative requirement here in the DOTS spec. Also note that = the >>>>> calculation provided is not valid for early data (0-RTT) as the = hello >>>>> messages could be transmitted in the same datagram. >>>>=20 >>>> There was some clarifying discussion here; do you still see an = issue? >>=20 >> I was wrong that DTLS helps you, however rfc7252 (soap) does and = specifies >> message sizes. While for Coap this is a SHOULD, you have a MUST here. = I >> think that is correctly and therefore it=E2=80=99s fine to specify it = normatively. >> Not need to change. Still I recommend to highlight this difference! >=20 > [Med] Will add some text to highlight this. =20 Thanks! >=20 >=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> 10) The document should more explicitly provide more guidance = about >>>>> when a client should start a session and what should be done (from = the >>>>> client side) if a session is detected as inactive (other than = during >>>>> migration which is discussed a bit in 4.7). Is the assumption to = have >>>>> basically permanently an active session or connect for migration = and >>>>> configuration requests separately at a time? >>>>=20 >>>> I think there was some clarifying text added, but please confirm if = you >> think it >>>> is sufficient. >>=20 >> Sorry, don=E2=80=99t see where text was added. Can you provide a = pointer? >=20 > [Med] We do have this text, for example: >=20 > The DOTS signal channel can be established between two DOTS agents > prior or during an attack. The DOTS signal channel is initiated by > the DOTS client. The DOTS client can then negotiate, configure, and > retrieve the DOTS signal channel session behavior with its DOTS peer > (Section 4.5). Once the signal channel is established, the DOTS > agents periodically send heartbeats to keep the channel active > (Section 4.7). At any time, the DOTS client may send a mitigation > request message (Section 4.4) to a DOTS server over the active = signal > channel. While mitigation is active (because of the higher > likelihood of packet loss during a DDoS attack), the DOTS server > periodically sends status messages to the client, including basic > mitigation feedback details. Mitigation remains active until the > DOTS client explicitly terminates mitigation, or the mitigation > lifetime expires. Also, the DOTS server may rely on the signal > channel session loss to trigger mitigation for pre-configured > mitigation requests (if any). Okay thanks for for the pointer. What I think is missing are some = sentences about what the client (or server) should do if the keep-alive = fails. Try to reconnect directly or just with the next request or = whatever. Basically who should reconnect and when? Mirja >=20 From nobody Tue Jul 2 07:07:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4898B1200F1; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 07:06:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C7e_NbACorTl; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 07:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E6B5120041; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 07:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 200116b82c0abb008104c3e4d35e4aa2.dip.versatel-1u1.de ([2001:16b8:2c0a:bb00:8104:c3e4:d35e:4aa2]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hiJQK-0006fk-Km; Tue, 02 Jul 2019 16:06:20 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 16:06:19 +0200 Cc: Benjamin Kaduk , Roman Danyliw , "dots@ietf.org" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "draft-ietf-dots-data-channel@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <24FFE7CE-B91A-4CF4-BB85-D6108ACE0043@kuehlewind.net> References: <155679628494.24951.9145538661531263463.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA68C8B@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20190701154032.GB13810@kduck.mit.edu> To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1562076391;c4eb2eb1; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hiJQK-0006fk-Km Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-?= =?utf-8?q?dots-data-channel-28=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 14:06:34 -0000 Hi Tiru, Please see below. > On 2. Jul 2019, at 09:55, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy = wrote: >=20 >>>>> I would also quickly like to discuss the use of keep-alives as >>>>> described in Section 3.1: "While the communication to the DOTS = server is >>>>> quiescent, the DOTS client MAY probe the server to ensure it has >>>>> maintained cryptographic state. Such probes can also keep alive >>>>> firewall and/or NAT bindings. A TLS heartbeat [RFC6520] verifies >>>>> that the DOTS server still has TLS state by returning a TLS = message." >>>>> I understood that multiple requests can and should be send in the >>>>> same connection, however, I would expect that those requests are >>>>> send basically right after each other, such as a look-up and then >>>>> change of the config. I don't see a need to keep up the connection = for a >> long time otherwise. >>>>> Especially any action performed are (other than in the signal >>>>> channel case) not time critical. Therefore I would rather = recommend >>>>> to close and reopen connections and not recommend to use = keep-alives >>>>> at all. >>>>=20 >>>> [Med] The activity of the DOTS client may be used to track/detect = stale >> entries: >>>>=20 >>>> Also, DOTS servers >>>> may track the inactivity timeout of DOTS clients to detect stale >>>> entries. >>>>=20 >> My understanding is that this is orthogonal. You can also see that a = client is >> inactive when it didn=E2=80=99t open a new connection for a certain = time=E2=80=A6? >=20 > The drop-list rules could be frequently updated by the DOTS client = based on the tests used by the DOTS client domain (e.g. cryptographic = challenge) to detect whether the IP address is for legitimate use or = not, or based on threat intelligence feeds from security vendors = providing the botnet/malicious IP addresses feed. Further, persistent = DOTS data channel is required to handle updates to target resources = (e.g. CDN hosting a domain, and it needs DDoS protection) and target = IP/prefix may also change frequently (mobile branch office, prefix = re-numbering etc.) This still doesn=E2=80=99t sounds like it is desirable to keep the TCP = connection open. Also if you can bear the time to reconnect (1-2 RTT for = the handshake) that is usually the better and easier options. I don=E2=80=99= t think the information we talk about here are that time-critical, is = it? When you say frequent what time frame do you mean, Hours, minutes, = seconds, milliseconds? Mirja >=20 > Further, we are not mandating the connection to be persistent, but = when needed, the probe mechanism applies. Please note = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server-13 = discusses persistent-connection and it=E2=80=99s a client preference on = how the connection is maintained (persistent or periodic). 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:DM5PR16MB0025; H:DM5PR16MB1705.namprd16.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: McAfee.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: YP0fr859jo/Ia8IO4p++mUsu9uVPbBEVV0wakMCM3NCBaHmvzjDsHM6WtsOixnn55qFPLf/9AyWnR3b37WPjIVNWNUO6k+EA+kviBJJovzzx0WfwxermKJsGMgpqnqWXV8i0WQOPwTAD3ylRXlBusLv5X8uOW6bVRuQ9S8r7R6oEvqe9RqjlFI07FMO7LSamQmi+p6ItflGQuemUnz0mLmbqoIpAjcoxWM5H9RXPt7oWGS2iAYgl9isYwwvJNbdmZ8v4nbB8lrn3WPxifOha9agwfLsgIbZxw3he9p6vgc63lMCVigrm1yJtskoosDBTbSzJ0ck2u/6D/gyY+emkbeYOZxnXCcyeYcUbPDnTwk5fqTuwcsi6v+QVx21obnOMvxDzM70NhI3TyjD40ojTOozqhzghqXMDMDyu4AG5uIM= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 266a24e1-5a33-4cd7-d079-08d6fef8adeb X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Jul 2019 14:22:14.1470 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4943e38c-6dd4-428c-886d-24932bc2d5de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR16MB0025 X-OriginatorOrg: mcafee.com X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 15 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0.4 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9418 : core <6581> : inlines <7113> : streams <1826189> : uri <2862925> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-?= =?utf-8?q?dots-data-channel-28=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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YW5kYXRpbmcgdGhlIGNvbm5lY3Rpb24gdG8gYmUgcGVyc2lzdGVudCwgYnV0IHdoZW4NCj4gbmVl ZGVkLCB0aGUgcHJvYmUgbWVjaGFuaXNtIGFwcGxpZXMuIFBsZWFzZSBub3RlDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8v dG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9kcmFmdC1pZXRmLW5ldGNvbmYtbmV0Y29uZi1jbGllbnQtc2Vy dmVyLTEzDQo+IGRpc2N1c3NlcyBwZXJzaXN0ZW50LWNvbm5lY3Rpb24gYW5kIGl04oCZcyBhIGNs aWVudCBwcmVmZXJlbmNlIG9uIGhvdyB0aGUNCj4gY29ubmVjdGlvbiBpcyBtYWludGFpbmVkIChw ZXJzaXN0ZW50IG9yIHBlcmlvZGljKS4NCg0K From nobody Tue Jul 2 08:50:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B29D51203A1; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 08:50:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OOdngf9rmbg0; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 08:50:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8122112034B; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 08:50:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 200116b82c0abb008104c3e4d35e4aa2.dip.versatel-1u1.de ([2001:16b8:2c0a:bb00:8104:c3e4:d35e:4aa2]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hiL2f-00057O-0w; Tue, 02 Jul 2019 17:50:01 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 17:50:00 +0200 Cc: Benjamin Kaduk , Roman Danyliw , "dots@ietf.org" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "draft-ietf-dots-data-channel@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <642531B0-3E3A-4A5C-BD20-C74AA3698936@kuehlewind.net> References: <155679628494.24951.9145538661531263463.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA68C8B@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20190701154032.GB13810@kduck.mit.edu> <24FFE7CE-B91A-4CF4-BB85-D6108ACE0043@kuehlewind.net> To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1562082611;80606916; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hiL2f-00057O-0w Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-?= =?utf-8?q?dots-data-channel-28=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 15:50:15 -0000 Hi Tiru, Below... > On 2. Jul 2019, at 16:22, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy = wrote: >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mirja Kuehlewind >> Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2019 7:36 PM >> To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >> Cc: Benjamin Kaduk ; Roman Danyliw ; >> dots@ietf.org; The IESG ; dots-chairs@ietf.org; >> mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; draft-ietf-dots-data-channel@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-dots-data- >> channel-28: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Hi Tiru, >>=20 >> Please see below. >>=20 >>> On 2. Jul 2019, at 09:55, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >> wrote: >>>=20 >>>>>>> I would also quickly like to discuss the use of keep-alives as >>>>>>> described in Section 3.1: "While the communication to the DOTS >>>>>>> server is quiescent, the DOTS client MAY probe the server to >>>>>>> ensure it has maintained cryptographic state. Such probes can >>>>>>> also keep alive firewall and/or NAT bindings. A TLS heartbeat >>>>>>> [RFC6520] verifies that the DOTS server still has TLS state by = returning >> a TLS message." >>>>>>> I understood that multiple requests can and should be send in = the >>>>>>> same connection, however, I would expect that those requests are >>>>>>> send basically right after each other, such as a look-up and = then >>>>>>> change of the config. I don't see a need to keep up the = connection >>>>>>> for a >>>> long time otherwise. >>>>>>> Especially any action performed are (other than in the signal >>>>>>> channel case) not time critical. Therefore I would rather >>>>>>> recommend to close and reopen connections and not recommend to >> use >>>>>>> keep-alives at all. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> [Med] The activity of the DOTS client may be used to track/detect >>>>>> stale >>>> entries: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Also, DOTS servers >>>>>> may track the inactivity timeout of DOTS clients to detect stale >>>>>> entries. >>>>>>=20 >>>> My understanding is that this is orthogonal. You can also see that = a >>>> client is inactive when it didn=E2=80=99t open a new connection for = a certain time=E2=80=A6? >>>=20 >>> The drop-list rules could be frequently updated by the DOTS client >>> based on the tests used by the DOTS client domain (e.g. = cryptographic >>> challenge) to detect whether the IP address is for legitimate use or >>> not, or based on threat intelligence feeds from security vendors >>> providing the botnet/malicious IP addresses feed. Further, = persistent >>> DOTS data channel is required to handle updates to target resources >>> (e.g. CDN hosting a domain, and it needs DDoS protection) and target >>> IP/prefix may also change frequently (mobile branch office, prefix >>> re-numbering etc.) >>=20 >> This still doesn=E2=80=99t sounds like it is desirable to keep the = TCP connection open. >> Also if you can bear the time to reconnect (1-2 RTT for the = handshake) that is >> usually the better and easier options. I don=E2=80=99t think the = information we talk >> about here are that time-critical, is it? When you say frequent what = time >> frame do you mean, Hours, minutes, seconds, milliseconds? >=20 > The frequency of updates to drop-list rules can be few milliseconds. = For example, CAPTCHA and cryptographic puzzles can be used by DOTS = client domain to determine whether the IP address is used for legitimate = purpose or not, and can configure the drop-list rules. > Further, the specification does not mandate the connection to be = persistent, but when needed, the probe mechanism applies. Then it really seems to me that the document would need to provide = further guidance when a persistent connection is useful or when it is = recommend to close the connection (and reopen if needed). Mirja >=20 > -Tiru >=20 >>=20 >> Mirja >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Further, we are not mandating the connection to be persistent, but = when >> needed, the probe mechanism applies. Please note >> = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server-13 >> discusses persistent-connection and it=E2=80=99s a client preference = on how the >> connection is maintained (persistent or periodic). >=20 From nobody Tue Jul 2 15:37:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EC49120106; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 15:37:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oc0FvknM3DLD; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 15:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D91451200F6; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 15:36:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id x62MatvS013959 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 2 Jul 2019 18:36:57 -0400 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 17:36:54 -0500 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases.all@ietf.org Cc: dots@ietf.org Message-ID: <20190702223654.GF13810@kduck.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 22:37:05 -0000 First off, a few housekeeping items: (1) This document lists seven authors, and per RFC 7322 I/the IESG needs to specially consider this and essentially make an exception to have more than five authors. Can you please confirm that all listed authors have made substantial contributions, so that I can take that to the IESG and get it approved? (2) The shepherd writeup indicates that three authors (Stefan, Bob, and Nik) have not indicated conformance with BCPs 78 and 79. I don't think I can issue the IETF LC until that gets straightened out, so please confirm that we're all squared away! (3) Recently the IESG has been trying to exert some gentle backpressure against publishing Informational use-cases/requirements drafts, when they serve only as input to future protocol specifications and do not have lasting archival value on their own. I do see in the shepherd writeup that the working group did reach consensus to publish this document and think there's enough value in it to be worth publishing; I just mention this so that people aren't surprised if the IESG evaluation comes back with questions about whether we should be publishing the document at all. Other than those, the document is generally in good shape; there's just a few substantive questions buried in the editorial nits. On to the section-by-section comments: Section 2 o DDoS Mitigation Service: designates a DDoS mitigation service provided to a customer and which is scoped to mitigate DDoS attacks. [...] I don't really think that using the lowercase-'s' version to define the uppercase-'S' version of the term is going to help anyone. Section 3.1 It's a little surprising that we have the two bullet points near the top about the enterprise DMS acting as a DOTS client for the first kind of service but as a DOTS server for the second kind, but then we never seem to talk about that second kind of service again in the document. Perhaps we should just explicitly say that it's similar to the first kind and not covered further? When the enterprise DMS detects an inbound DDoS attack targeting its resources ( e.g. servers, hosts or applications), it immediately begins a DDoS Mitigation. I'd consider clarifying that this mitigation is entirely local within the enterprise, so that contacting the ITP in the next step is a clear escalation. related information. Once the DDoS attack has ended, or decreased to the certain level that the DOTS client can handle by itself, the DOTS server signals the enterprise DMS DOTS client that the attack has subsided. I think it's the enterprise DMS that is handling the attack, not the DOTS client directly... The enterprise DMS then requests the ITP to terminate the DDoS Mitigation. The DOTS server on the ITP receives this request and ... but this one is the DOTS client. o (a) A DDoS attack is initiated against resources of a network organization which has deployed a DOTS-capable DMS - typically a DOTS client. We probably want to reiterate in a parenthetical "network organization (here, the enterprise)" the terminology we're using. o (d) The DOTS server which receives the DOTS Mitigation request determines that it has been configured to honor requests from the requesting DOTS client, and honored its DDoS Mitigation by orchestrating its DMS. nit: I think s/honored/honors/ to stay in the present tense. o (e) While the DDoS Mitigation is active, DOTS server regularly transmits DOTS DDoS Mitigation status updates to the DOTS client. nit: "the DOTS server" or "servers regularly transmit". Section 3.2 As such, this use case likely to match large enterprises or large data centers, but not exclusively. [...] nit: "is likely" In this scenario, an Enterprise Network has entered into a pre- arranged DDoS mitigation assistance agreement with one or more other DDoS Mitigation Service Providers in order to ensure that sufficient DDoS mitigation capacity and/or capabilities may be activated in the event that a given DDoS attack threatens to overwhelm the ability of a given DMS to mitigate the attack on its own. We could perhaps say "overwhelm the ability of the enterprise's or any other given DMS" since in most cases the enterprise DMS is the one at risk of first being overwhelmed. Is the fact that the C<-->S DOTS traffic does not go through the ITP in Figure 3 an intentional change from Figure 2 (in that they are expected to be communicating "out of band" or not through the enterprise's normal transit)? Some readers might see this and get confused if this communication is still supposed to be going along the regular transit path. Section 3.3 In this use case, one or more DDoS telemetry systems or monitoring devices monitor a network - typically an ISP network, an Enterprise network, or a data center. Upon detection of a DDoS attack, these DDoS telemetry systems alert an orchestrator in charge of coordinating the various DMS within the domain. [...] nit: do we have a standard plural form for "DMS"? (Is it just "DMS"?) ITP. DDoS Mitigation System selection and DDoS Mitigation technique may depends on the type of DDoS attack. In some case, a manual nit: "techniques" plural The communication between a network administrator and the orchestrator is also performed using DOTS. The network administrator via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the Orchestrator implements a DOTS server. nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator has a web interface. I think "its" is supposed to refer to something else. nit: Figure 4 lists "DDoS mitigation systems" in both the interprise and the ITP, but only the enterprise side has a "stack" of boxes to indicate there is more than one. These systems are configured so that when an event or some measurement indicators reach a predefined level to send DOTS mitigation request to the orchestrator. The DOTS mitigation request nit: the grammar here is a bit off; I think s/to send DOTS mitigation request/they send a DOTS mitigation request/ would fix it. Upon receipt of the DOTS mitigation request from the DDoS telemetry system, the orchestrator responds with an acknowledgment, to avoid retransmission of the request for mitigation. The orchestrator may begin collecting additional fined grain and specific information from nit: "fine-grained" and provide an analysis of the event. Eventually, the orchestrator may ask additional information to the DDoS telemetry system, however, the collection of these information is out of scope. nit: s/ask additional information to/ask for additional information from/ nit: semicolon before "however" instead of comma nit: "this information" Upon receiving a request to mitigate a DDoS attack performed over a target, the orchestrator, may evaluate the volumetry of the attack as nit: no comma after "the orchestrator" well as the value that represent the target. The orchestrator may nit: "the value that the target represents" When DDoS Mitigation is requested, the status indicates the DDoS Mitigation is starting while not effective. The DOTS client of the orchestrator will later be notified that the DDoS Mitigation is effective. I'm not entirely sure what this last sentence is trying to say. Orchestration of the DDoS mitigation systems works similarly as described in Section 3.1. The orchestrator indicates with its status whether the DDoS Mitigation is effective. Is this intended to specifically refer to the external (ITP) DMS? Also, my understanding is that for this interaction the orchestrator is acting as a DOTS client, but the rest of the document only has status messages being generated by the DOTS server. Am I confused? Section 4 It feels incomplete to list three primary attacks but only discuss mitigations for two of them. Perhaps "preconfigured mitigation steps to take on the loss of keepalive traffic can partially mitigate signal blocking, but in general it is impossible to comprehensively defend against an attacker that can selectively block any or all traffic". Section 6 Is Med's name spelled correctly? Thanks, Ben From nobody Tue Jul 2 18:26:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB32A1200F6 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 18:26:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.037 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.037 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PRICES_ARE_AFFORDABLE=0.551, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bJQ0JVDVS1pl for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 18:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta2.chinamobile.com (cmccmta2.chinamobile.com [221.176.66.80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 937A31200DE for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 18:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.121.3]) by rmmx-syy-dmz-app05-12005 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee55d1c043e3c6-a2a62; Wed, 03 Jul 2019 09:26:22 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee55d1c043e3c6-a2a62 X-RM-TagInfo: emlType=0 X-RM-SPAM-FLAG: 00000000 Received: from cmcc-PC (unknown[10.2.51.70]) by rmsmtp-syy-appsvr02-12002 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee25d1c043a20d-2375d; Wed, 03 Jul 2019 09:26:21 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee25d1c043a20d-2375d Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:26:22 +0800 From: "Meiling Chen" To: mohamed.boucadair , "Panwei (William)" Cc: dots References: <30E95A901DB42F44BA42D69DB20DFA6A69FA5E84@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com>, <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAADB9E@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>, <30E95A901DB42F44BA42D69DB20DFA6A69FA69EC@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com>, <2019070214454218305711@chinamobile.com>, <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB1FA4@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> X-Priority: 3 X-Has-Attach: no X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.2.9.115[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2019070309262119316418@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart874060573655_=----" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Some comments on draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-02 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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Hi med,
  • if signal call ho= me just exchange the role of client and server, why not just use gateway? = gateway can play both client and server roles.
  • s= ignal call home parameters: source-prefix=E3=80=81= source-port-range=E3=80=81sour= ce-icmp-type; source-prefix and source-port-range have no= difference with target-prefix and target-port-range in form,
    • <= li>  If you want to ma= ke a clear distinction, why not just add a parameter in signal channel to = indicate the general signal channel or call home signal channel?
=0A
=0A
 = ;
Date: 2019-07= -02 19:24
CC:&n= bsp;dots
Subject: RE: Re: [Dots] Some = comments on draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-02
=0A=0A
=0A

Hi Meiling,=0A=

=0A

 

=0A

A scenario where both base and call home signal channels may co-exist is = as follows:=0A

=0A

 

=0A

=C2=B7       = ; =0AA CPE e= mbeds a dots client used to seek for help whenever incoming attacks are de= tected (base dots signal/data channels)=0A

=0A

=C2=B7     &nb= sp;  =0AThe same CPE embeds a DOTS server to interact with a DOTS client hosted b= y its network provider (signal call home): the network provide uses this= =0A channel to place mitigation requests for outbound attacks that are ori= ginating from the CPE=E2=80=99s network.  

=0A<= o:p> 

=0A

There is no call home extension defined for= the data channel. If some ACLs needs to be communicated, for example, to = the CPE,=0A an option would be to use RFC8071 (RESTCONF/NETCONF Call Home)= .

=0A

 

=0A

Cheers,

=0A

Med

=0A

 

=0A
= =0A
=0A
=0A

De : MeiLing Chen [mailto:chenmeiling@= chinamobile.com]=0A
=0AEnvoy=C3=A9 : mardi 2 juillet 2019 0= 8:46
=0A=C3=80 : Panwei (William); BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OL= N
=0ACc : dots
=0AObjet : Re: Re: [Dots] Som= e comments on draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-02

=0A=
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

Hi Med,

=0A
=0A
=0A

general sig= nal channel and call home function can both exist in the same scene?

=0A
=0A
=0A

And I am also not so = clear about how data channel used in call home scenerio?=

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A

From: Panwei=0A (William)<= /p>=0A

=0A
=0A

Date: 2019-06-27 15:49

=0A
= =0A=0A
=0A

CC: dots

=0A<= /div>=0A
=0A

Subject: Re: [Dots] Some comments on draft-ietf-dots-signal-call= -home-02

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
= =0A

Hi Me= d,

=0A

 

=0A

Thank you for your reply. For the sake o= f convenience, I move the discussion to the front.

=0A

 

=0A

4. In Section 4.1, it requests the IANA to assign a separate port = number to the DOTS Signal Channel Call Home Protocol. In Section 3.3.1, it= says Signal Channel=0A Call Home can use not only this assigned port numb= er but also some other port numbers configured by the administrator. So ca= n the Signal Channel Port Number (4646) be configured as the Signal Channe= l Call Home Port Number? The draft should add some normative=0A requiremen= ts about this.

=0A[Med] It is up to the client= /server to agree on the alternate port. IMO, we don=E2=80=99t need to elab= orate on these deployment considerations.=0A

=0A

[Wei] The base spec defines that Port 4646 is used for= ordinary Signal Channel, if this port is also configured as Signal Channe= l Call Home Port Number, can the=0A two signal channels be established sim= ultaneously by both using Port 4646? Will these two signal channel work pe= rfectly without mutual interference? If one port is enough for using, I do= n=E2=80=99t think another port need to be assigned? If different ports are= needed,=0A then the draft should explain the reason and add some normativ= e requirements.

=0A<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; = font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> 

=0A

6. For this call home scena= rio, the draft doesn=E2=80=99t contain anything about data channel, is the= data channel omitted by mistake? Does the data channel need to extend=0A = in the call home scenario? For the case that the home gateway acts as both= DOTS client and DOTS server simultaneously, will it need two data channel= s just like it needs the two signal channels?

=0A

[Med] No, that is on purpose. The data channel may fail when an attack = is ongoing.=0A

=0A[Wei] In c= all home scenario, can the DOTS server (home gateway) establish a Data Cha= nnel with the DOTS client (ISP or DMS) ?=0AIf can, 1) What=E2=80=99s the Call Home Data Channel us= ed for? 2) How does it work? Is there any difference between Call Home Dat= a Channel and ordinary Data Channel? 3)=0A When home gateway acts both as = DOTS server and DOTS client, there are two data channels with different di= rections, how to distinguish these two data channels? Will these two date = channels work perfectly without any modification to data-channel-specifica= tion?

=0A

If can=E2=80=99t, W= hy? And How to prevent it?

=0A

=0A

In conclusion, m= y point of the above two comments is about the compatibility between the c= all home scenario and basic DOTS Signal/Data Channel. I don=E2=80=99t know= whether=0A you have considered the compatibility already. If not, these m= y preliminary thoughts may offer some help for considering about compatibi= lity. I suggest a section can be added to clarify the compatibility. If yo= u allow I=E2=80=99m willing to contribute more.

=0A

 <= /span>

=0A

11. In Section 4.3, is the name =E2=80=9Crequest-rejected=E2=80=9D go= od enough? Because comparing to the names of other conflict causes, it see= ms this name can=E2=80=99t represent this=0A specific conflict case, DOTS = server can =E2=80=98reject the request=E2=80=99 in all the conflict cases.=

=0A

[Med] Do you have a preference? What about= request-rejected-legitimate-traffic?=0A<= o:p>

=0A

[Wei] It works for me.

=0A

 =0A

13. = In Section 3.1.1, it says =E2=80=9Cthe DOTS client MUST validate that attack= er prefixes are within=0A the scope of the DOTS server domain=E2=80=9D. But how should the DOTS client know the scop= e of each DOTS server domain?=0A

=0A

[Med] Foll= owing similar means for a dots server to do that validation in the base sp= ec.=0A

=0A

[Wei] OK, I=E2= =80=99ll check the base spec for details. Maybe you can also add some refe= rences or guidance to the base spec in the call home draft.

=0A

 =

=0A

 =

=0A
=0A

Regards & Thanks!

=0A

=E6=BD=98=E4=BC=9F=0A Wei Pan

=0A

=E5=8D=8E=E4=B8=BA=E6=8A=80=E6=9C=AF=E6=9C= =89=E9=99=90=E5=85=AC=E5=8F=B8 Huawei Tech= nologies Co., Ltd.

= =0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

From: mohamed.b= oucadair@orange.com [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com]=0A
=0ASent= : Wednesday, June 26, 2019 5:50 PM
=0ATo: Panwei (William) &= lt;william.panwei@huawei.com>; dots <dots@ietf.org>
=0ASubj= ect: RE: Some comments on draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-02

=0A
=0A
=0A

 

=0A

Hi Pan,

=0A

&nb= sp;

=0A

Thank you for the comments.

=0A

Please see inline.

=0A

&nbs= p;

=0A

Cheers,=

=0A

M= ed

=0A

 <= o:p>

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A

De : Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org]=0ADe la part de Panwei = (William)
=0AEnvoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 26 juin 2019 10:25
= =0A=C3=80 : dots
=0AObjet : [Dots] Some comment= s on draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-02<= o:p>

=0A
=0A
=0A

 

=0A

Hi authors,

=0A

 

=0A

I=E2=80=99ve read the latest version draft, and= I have the following comments:

=0A

 

=0A

Some nits:<= /span>

=0A

1. In Section 1.1, the se= cond paragraph, s/at affordable price/at affordable prices/.

=0A

2. In Section 1.1, the second last p= aragraph, s/a IPv6 home network/an IPv6 home network/.

=0A

3. In Section 2, the reference I-D.ietf-do= ts-requirements should be changed to RFC8612.

=0A

4. In Section 3.3..1, Figure 4 and Figure 5, s/NAT Em= beded in a CPE/NAT Embedded in a CPE/.

=0A

5. In section 5, the third paragraph, s/inspect all the traf= fic from the compromised to the target/inspect all the traffic from the co= mpromised device to the target/.

=0A

 

=0A

[Med] Fixed. Thanks

=0A

 

=0A

Comments:

=0A

1. The Section 3.3.1 contain= s three things: the new parameters of the mitigation request, the consider= ations of NAT deployment, the extension of conflict-clause.=0A These 3 thi= ngs make this section too long. For a better structure and readability, my= suggestion is to split this section into 3 sections, or at least to put t= he NAT considerations into a separate section.

=0A

 

=0A

[Med] OK to mo= ved address sharing considerations into a separate section.=0A

=0A

 

=0A

=0A

For TCP, UDP, Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP)

=0A

[RFC4960], or Datagram Congestion Control Protocol (DCCP)

=0A

[RFC4340], a range of ports can be, for example, 0-1023,=

=0A

1024-65535, or 1024-49151.<= /o:p>

=0A

My understanding of these 3 examples is that they want to show = the readers the ports can range from 0 to 65535. It=E2=80=99s better to sa= y this explicitly before listing=0A the examples.

=0A

=  

=0A

[Med] Those are examples of v= alid ranges. OK to add a mention that any subrange of 0-65535 is a valid r= ange.=0A

=0A

 

=0A

3. In Section 3.3..1, it uses =E2=80=98source-icmp-t= ype=E2=80=99 when explaining this new parameter, while other places using = =E2=80=98source-icmp-type-range=E2=80=99. I think =E2=80=98source-icmp-typ= e-range=E2=80=99=0A should be used here too.

=0A

=0A

 

=0A

4. In Section = 4.1, it requests the IANA to assign a separate port number to the DOTS Sig= nal Channel Call Home Protocol. In Section 3.3.1, it says Signal Channel= =0A Call Home can use not only this assigned port number but also some oth= er port numbers configured by the administrator. So can the Signal Channel= Port Number (4646) be configured as the Signal Channel Call Home Port Num= ber? The draft should add some normative=0A requirements about this.

=0A

 

=0A

[Med] It i= s up to the client/server to agree on the alternate port. IMO, we don=E2= =80=99t need to elaborate on these deployment considerations.=0A

=0A

 

=0A

5. In Section 3.3..1, it says =E2=80=98source-prefix=E2=80=99 is an op= tional attribute, and it also says:<= /o:p>

=0A

The =E2=80=99source-pre= fix=E2=80=99 parameter is a mandatory attribute when the

=0A

at= tack traffic information is signaled by a DOTS client in the Call

=0A

Home scenario.=0A

 

=0A

[Med] It is an optional attribute with regards to the bas= e signal spec, but it is mandatory when used in the call home scenario. &n= bsp;

=0A

 

=0A

5.1. Can the ordinary signal channel use the call home e= xtension? For example, if the signal channel is established by using the S= ignal Channel Port Number (4646),=0A can the mitigation request contain th= e source-prefix, source-port-range and source-icmp-type-range? (I guess YE= S, so for ordinary signal channel these parameters are optional)

=0A

 

=0A

[Med] Yes, thi= s is why these attributes are said to be optional.=0A

=0A

 

= =0A

5.2. = Can the call home signal channel not use the call home extension? For exam= ple, if the signal channel is established by using the Signal Channel Call= Home=0A Port Number (4647), can the mitigation request not contain the so= urce-prefix? (I guess NO, so for call home signal channel the =E2=80=99sou= rce-prefix=E2=80=98 is mandatory)

=0A

 

=0A

[Med] The source-prefix is mandatory when use= d in call home.=0A

= =0A

 

=0A

5.3. Even if the ordinary signal channel = can use the call home extension, a separate call home signal channel can a= lso be helpful for the case that home gateway=0A acts as both DOTS client = and DOTS server simultaneously. Any other reasons to invent the separate c= all home signal channel?

=0A

 

=0A

[Med] The home gateway will need to maintain two signa= l sessions as a function of its DOTS agent role.=0A

=0A

 

=0A<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; = font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">5.4. How = to identify the =E2=80=98Call Home scenario=E2=80=99 ? By the signal chann= el port number?

=0A<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; = font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">[Med] Yes, but also in the = reversal of (D)TLS roles.=0A

=0A

 

=0A

5.5. I prefer = to make all the above things explicit and clear in the draft.

=0A

[Med] Will double check the text.=0A

=0A

 =0A

6. F= or this call home scenario, the draft doesn=E2=80=99t contain anything abo= ut data channel, is the data channel omitted by mistake? Does the data cha= nnel need to extend=0A in the call home scenario? For the case that the ho= me gateway acts as both DOTS client and DOTS server simultaneously, will i= t need two data channels just like it needs the two signal channels?

=0A

 

=0A

[Med] No, = that is on purpose. The data channel may fail when an attack is ongoing.= =0A

=0A

 =

=0A

7. In Section 4.2, it says:

=0A

This specifica= tion registers the =E2=80=99source-prefix=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=99source-por= t-

=0A

range=E2=80=99 parameters in the IANA "DOTS Signal Chann= el CBOR Mappings"

= =0A

registry established by [I-D.ietf-dots-= signal-channel].

=0A=

Here men= tions =E2=80=98source-prefix=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98source-port-range=E2=80= =99, but the =E2=80=98source-icmp-type-range=E2=80=99 is missing.

=0A

 <= /span>

=0A

[Med] Good ca= tch.=0A

=0A

 

=0A

8. In Section 4.2, the IANA registry =E2=80=9CDOTS S= ignal Channel CBOR Mappings=E2=80=9D can=E2=80=99t be find in the signal c= hannel draft by searching the quoted name directly.. (Should=0A be =E2=80= =9CDOTS Signal Channel CBOR Key Values=E2=80=9D?)

=0A

= [Med] Agree. Fixed.=0A<= /span>

=0A

 =

=0A

9. In Section 4.2, the table is= better to be given a number and name. In terms of format, this table matc= hes Table 4 of the signal channel draft, and doesn't match=0A any of the I= ANA registries of the signal channel draft.[Med] OK.

=0A

 

=0A

<= span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Gadugi","sans-s= erif";color:black">10. In Section 4.3, the registry name should be = =E2=80=9CDOTS Signal Channel Conflict Cause Codes=E2=80=9D (this name is f= rom the signal channel draft).=

=0A

[Med] Fixed.=

=0A

 

=0A

11. In Section 4.3, is the name =E2=80=9Crequest-rejected=E2= =80=9D good enough? Because comparing to the names of other conflict cause= s, it seems this name can=E2=80=99t represent this=0A specific conflict ca= se, DOTS server can =E2=80=98reject the request=E2=80=99 in all the confli= ct cases.

=0A

[Med] Do you have a preference? W= hat about request-rejected-legitimate-traffic?=0A

=0A

=  

=0A

12. In NAT = considerations of Section 3.3.1, for the case that the NAT translator depl= oyed in the source network, the DOTS client should send the external IP ad= dress=0A of the attacker and the DOTS server should find the correspondent= internal IP address. Comparing to the CGN case, I suggest that some norma= tive words can also be used here.

=0A

[Med] Wil= l double check the language.=0A

=0A

 

=0A

13. In Section 3.1.1, it says= =E2=80=9Cthe DOTS client MUST validate that attacker prefixes are within=0A= the scope of the DOTS server domain=E2=80= =9D. But how should the DOTS client know the scope of each DOTS server dom= ain?=0A

=0A

[Med] Following similar means for = a dots server to do that validation in the base spec.=0A

=0A

 =0A

In t= he call home scenario, there might be tens of thousands of DOTS servers, a= re there some easy methods to let the DOTS client know the scope of each D= OTS server=0A domain? In addition, I think this is critical for deploying = DOTS call home, and we need to address this in the draft.

=0A

 

=0A

Regards & Thanks!

=0A<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height: 120%; margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt= ; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">=E6=BD=98=E4=BC=9F=0A Wei Pan

=0A

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------=_001_NextPart874060573655_=------ From nobody Wed Jul 3 00:44:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98604120735 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 00:44:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24KRLAIQwI-J for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 00:44:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C6AC120733 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 00:44:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML710-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id D8F1011025B4F7F01D24 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 08:44:35 +0100 (IST) Received: from lhreml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.54) by LHREML710-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 08:44:35 +0100 Received: from lhreml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.54) by lhreml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.54) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1713.5; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 08:44:35 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.214) by lhreml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.54) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 08:44:34 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM511-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.140]) by DGGEMM406-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.214]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 15:44:32 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" To: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: About remote presentation in IETF 105: Thread-Index: AdUxcmp0no+S246kT/S0/zzRsqfjig== Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 07:44:32 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.159.76] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7BEB3Ddggemm511mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] About remote presentation in IETF 105: X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 07:44:39 -0000 --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7BEB3Ddggemm511mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, If anyone cannot be the meeting site in person, and need the remote present= ation, please let the chairs know before July 20, 2019. We can arrange your remote presentation slot provided by meetecho tool. B.R. Frank This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information from HUAWE= I, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed = above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including, b= ut not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or disseminat= ion) by persons other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you = receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email im= mediately and delete it! --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7BEB3Ddggemm511mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

If anyone cannot be the meeting= site in person, and need the remote presentation, please let the chairs kn= ow before July 20, 2019.

 

We can arrange your remote pres= entation slot provided by meetecho tool.

 

B.R.

Frank

 

 

 

This e-mail and its attachments= contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. A= ny use of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not l= imited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by = persons other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please no= tify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete it!

 

--_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7BEB3Ddggemm511mbxchi_-- From nobody Wed Jul 3 00:53:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 603DB120735; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 00:53:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cY1RnJKfThTP; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 00:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDA83120733; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 00:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar04.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.6]) by opfedar27.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45dtdt62Fdz2yYG; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:53:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.92]) by opfedar04.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45dtdt4FHHz1xp5; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:53:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM34.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::7873:1668:636f:52c%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:53:38 +0200 From: To: Mirja Kuehlewind CC: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "Benjamin Kaduk" , "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" , "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" , "dots@ietf.org" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?QmVoYXZpb3Igd2hlbiBrZWVwLWFsaXZlcyBmYWlsIChSRTogW0RvdHNdICBN?= =?utf-8?B?aXJqYSBLw7xobGV3aW5kJ3MgRGlzY3VzcyBvbiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWRvdHMt?= =?utf-8?Q?signal-channel-31:_(with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT)?= Thread-Index: AdUxdGsq8U83RxkKTmqTWkknwqxMeg== Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 07:53:37 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2ABA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Behavior_when_keep-alives_fail_=28RE=3A___Mirja?= =?utf-8?q?_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-3?= =?utf-8?q?1=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 07:53:44 -0000 SGkgTWlyamEsIA0KDQooRm9jdXNpbmcgb24gaW5kaXZpZHVhbCBpc3N1ZXMpIA0KDQpQbGVhc2Ug c2VlIGlubGluZS4gDQoNCkNoZWVycywNCk1lZA0KDQo+IC0tLS0tTWVzc2FnZSBkJ29yaWdpbmUt LS0tLQ0KPiBEZcKgOiBNaXJqYSBLdWVobGV3aW5kIFttYWlsdG86aWV0ZkBrdWVobGV3aW5kLm5l dF0NCj4gRW52b3nDqcKgOiBtYXJkaSAyIGp1aWxsZXQgMjAxOSAxNjowMA0KPiDDgMKgOiBCT1VD QURBSVIgTW9oYW1lZCBUR0kvT0xODQo+IENjwqA6IEtvbmRhLCBUaXJ1bWFsZXN3YXIgUmVkZHk7 IEJlbmphbWluIEthZHVrOyBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWRvdHMtc2lnbmFsLQ0KPiBjaGFubmVsQGlldGYu b3JnOyBmcmFuay54aWFsaWFuZ0BodWF3ZWkuY29tOyBkb3RzQGlldGYub3JnOyBUaGUgSUVTRzsN Cj4gZG90cy1jaGFpcnNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gT2JqZXTCoDogUmU6IFtEb3RzXSBNaXJqYSBLw7xo bGV3aW5kJ3MgRGlzY3VzcyBvbiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWRvdHMtc2lnbmFsLQ0KPiBjaGFubmVsLTMx OiAod2l0aCBESVNDVVNTIGFuZCBDT01NRU5UKQ0KPiANCi4uLg0KPiA+Pj4+PiAxMCkgVGhlIGRv Y3VtZW50IHNob3VsZCBtb3JlIGV4cGxpY2l0bHkgcHJvdmlkZSBtb3JlIGd1aWRhbmNlIGFib3V0 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aWV0Zi1uZXRjb25mLW5ldGNvbmYtY2xpZW50LXNlcnZlci0NCj4gPj4gMTMgZGlzY3Vzc2VzIHBl cnNpc3RlbnQtY29ubmVjdGlvbiBhbmQgaXTigJlzIGEgY2xpZW50IHByZWZlcmVuY2Ugb24NCj4g Pj4gaG93IHRoZSBjb25uZWN0aW9uIGlzIG1haW50YWluZWQgKHBlcnNpc3RlbnQgb3IgcGVyaW9k aWMpLg0KPiA+DQoNCg== From nobody Wed Jul 3 01:50:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9997A1201DD; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 01:50:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uU-QOaG-a2lV; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 01:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04AF61201D7; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 01:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr04.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.68]) by opfednr24.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45dvtz6cryz20VX; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:50:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.76]) by opfednr04.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45dvtz4pvhz1xpB; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:50:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM7E.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::54f9:a664:e400:452a%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:50:03 +0200 From: To: Mirja Kuehlewind CC: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "Benjamin Kaduk" , "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" , "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" , "dots@ietf.org" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?Mi13YXkgaGVhcnRiZWF0cyBSRTogW0RvdHNdICBNaXJqYSBLw7xobGV3aW5k?= =?utf-8?B?J3MgRGlzY3VzcyBvbiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWRvdHMtc2lnbmFsLWNoYW5uZWwt?= =?utf-8?Q?31:_(with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT)?= Thread-Index: AdUxfEqQgcRLIqPLRvG88uSsmkXW0w== Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 08:50:02 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2B51@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?2-way_heartbeats_RE=3A___Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= =?utf-8?q?=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31=3A_=28with_DI?= =?utf-8?q?SCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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czoNCj4gDQo+IENsaWVudCBwaW5nIOKAlOKAlOKAlOKAlOKAlD4NCj4gICAgICAgICAgICAgPOKA lOKAlOKAlOKAlCBzZXJ2ZXIgcG9uZw0KPiANCj4gICAgICAgICAgICAgPOKAlOKAlOKAlOKAlCBz ZXJ2ZXIgcGluZw0KPiBDbGllbnQgcG9uZyDigJTigJTigJTigJTigJQ+DQo+IA0KPiBJZiB0aGF0 IGlzIG5vdCB3aGF0IHlvdXIgYXJlIGRvaW5nIHlvdSBuZWVkIHRvIGNsYXJpZnkgdGhpcyBpbiB0 aGUNCj4gZG9jdW1lbnQuDQo+IA0KPiBJZiB5b3UgYWN0dWFsbHkgd2FudCB0byBoYXZlIHR3byBk aWZmZXJlbnQgcGluZy9wb25n4oCZcyB5b3UgbmVlZCB0byBleHBsYWluDQo+IG1lIHdoeSB5b3Ug bmVlZCBib3RoLiANCg0K From nobody Wed Jul 3 02:42:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D21211201F1; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 02:42:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8X37aRr49o6S; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 02:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4756120019; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 02:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr02.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.66]) by opfednr25.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45dx3h1pfKzCssR; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 11:42:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.67]) by opfednr02.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45dx3h0ywsz8sY1; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 11:42:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::b846:2467:1591:5d9d%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 11:42:39 +0200 From: To: Mirja Kuehlewind CC: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "Benjamin Kaduk" , "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" , "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" , "dots@ietf.org" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?ZGVmYXVsdCBwb3J0IG51bWJlciBSRTogW0RvdHNdICBNaXJqYSBLw7xobGV3?= =?utf-8?B?aW5kJ3MgRGlzY3VzcyBvbiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWRvdHMtc2lnbmFsLWNoYW5u?= =?utf-8?Q?el-31:_(with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT)?= Thread-Index: AdUxg6WgNMJmrpE0T5CZSfYUxekzBQ== Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:42:39 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2BDE@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?default_port_number_RE=3A___Mirja_K=C3=BChlewin?= =?utf-8?q?d=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31=3A_=28with_D?= =?utf-8?q?ISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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aWVyDQo+IHRvIGF0dGFjayB0aGUgZG90cyBzZXJ2aWNlIGFuZCB0cmFmZmljIGRpcmVjdGx5LiBJ ZiB5b3Ugd2FudCB0byBvcGVuIGENCj4gZmlyZXdhbGwgZm9yIGRvdHMgdHJhZmZpYyBzcGVjaWZp Y2FsbHksIGl0IGlzIHNhZmVyIHRvIGNvbmZpZ3VyZSB5b3VyDQo+IGZpcmV3YWxsIGJhc2VkIG9u IHRoZSBwb3J0IHVzZWQgaW4gdGhlIHNwZWNpZmljIGRlcGxveW1lbnQgc2V0dXAgdGhhbg0KPiB1 c2luZyBhIGZpeGVkIHBvcnQgZm9yIGFsbCBkb3RzIHNlcnZpY2VzIGV2ZXJ5d2hlcmUuDQo= From nobody Wed Jul 3 03:08:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 401481201EF; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 03:08:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AhZ9hGsnTMSb; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 03:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46A7212029A; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 03:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 200116b82468ed0068c3f61f5d01a906.dip.versatel-1u1.de ([2001:16b8:2468:ed00:68c3:f61f:5d01:a906]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hicBa-0000wj-Rh; Wed, 03 Jul 2019 12:08:22 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2BDE@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 12:08:22 +0200 Cc: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" , "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "dots@ietf.org" , "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <747CDE21-58FB-4C6A-B0D8-2686FAA38CCD@kuehlewind.net> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2BDE@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, Benjamin Kaduk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1562148507;6ffbf5e7; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hicBa-0000wj-Rh Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?default_port_number_RE=3A___Mirja_K=C3=BChlewin?= =?utf-8?q?d=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31=3A_=28with_D?= =?utf-8?q?ISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 10:08:30 -0000 Hi Med, See below. > On 3. Jul 2019, at 11:42, = wrote: >=20 > Re-, >=20 > Let's recap: >=20 > (1) The initial objection from the expert is to reuse default CoAP = port (5684) > (2) We clarified why this is not an option > (3) You agreed "port 5684 is no alternative".=20 > (4) You think that dynamic port would be preferable instead of "fixed" = (assuming you meant default) because an IP address will be configured = anyway.=20 > (5) In the meantime you argued that protocols like SIP have "good = reason for a fixed port", while RFC3261 says explicitly the following: >=20 > =3D=3D > A server SHOULD be prepared to receive requests on any IP address, > ^^^^=20 > port and transport combination that can be the result of a DNS = lookup > ^^^^ > on a SIP or SIPS URI [4] that is handed out for the purposes of > communicating with that server. > =3D=3D=20 Yes SIP can also use dynamic ports. Anyway... no need to discuss SIP = here. >=20 > (6) We provided two address selection logics that can be followed by a = DOTS client to ease deployments ** without ** requiring configuring an = IP address:=20 > - Assume the default gateway is the DOTS server. This is typically = the case where a CPE embeds a DOTS gateway. For this case, the client = does not need to be configured explicitly with an IP address/port. = Internal hosts/CPE won't be required to be upgraded to support a = mechanism to discover the DOTS server. An example of procedure to = contact a server would be: > --- use any server/port that use explicitly configured > --- if not, try the default router. > - Make use of anycast for DOTS: = /draft-ietf-dots-architecture-14#section-3.2.4 says the following: >=20 > "benefits, anycast signaling potentially offers the following: >=20 > o Simplified DOTS client configuration, including service discovery > through the methods described in [RFC7094]. In this scenario, = the > "instance discovery" message would be a DOTS client initiating a > DOTS session to the DOTS server anycast Service Address, to which > the DOTS server would reply with a redirection to the DOTS server > unicast address the client should use for DOTS." >=20 > Do you want us to include NEW text to discuss this in the draft? Yes, these are good cases to request a default port. Thanks for = clarifying. Unfortunately they are no discussed in this document. I did = not read draft-ietf-dots-architecture in detail yet because it has not = been in IESG evaluation yet. However, providing a pointer to = draft-ietf-dots-architecture-14#section-3.2.4 in this document in = section 4.1. would be certainly good. I also didn=E2=80=99t find any = discussion in any document about the first case (use of default router). = Please also add text in section 4.1 or provide a pointer respectively = (maybe I just didn=E2=80=99t find it quickly). Also looking that these documents it seem to me that = draft-ietf-dots-architecture and draf-ietf-dots-server-discovery should = probably both be normative references. And looking att he list of informative references I find it also weird = to see draft-ietf-dots-data-channel, draft-ietf-tls-dtls13 (which is now = RFC 8446) and draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor there. Looks like you simply put = all drafts in the informative category. That=E2=80=99s not how this is = supposed to work. Ben, please double-check the references and provide advise! Mirja >=20 > Thank you.=20 >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] >> Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 2 juillet 2019 16:00 >> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN >> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; = draft-ietf-dots-signal- >> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The IESG; >> dots-chairs@ietf.org >> Objet : Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-dots-signal- >> channel-31: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>=20 >> Hi Med, >>=20 >> See below. >>=20 >>> On 2. Jul 2019, at 11:38, >> wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Mirja, all, >>>=20 >>> (removing resolved items). >>>=20 >>> Please see inline. >>>=20 >>> Cheers, >>> Tiru & Med >>>=20 >>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] >>>> Envoy=C3=A9 : lundi 1 juillet 2019 18:21 >>>> =C3=80 : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk >>>> Cc : draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; >> frank.xialiang@huawei.com; >>>> dots@ietf.org; The IESG; dots-chairs@ietf.org >>>> Objet : Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-dots-signal- >>>> channel-31: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Ben, hi Tiru, >>>>=20 >>>> Please see below. >>>>=20 >>>>> On 29. Jun 2019, at 14:10, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >>>> wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Please see inline >>>>>=20 >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Dots On Behalf Of Benjamin Kaduk >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2019 3:51 AM >>>>>> To: Mirja K=C3=BChlewind >>>>>> Cc: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; >> frank.xialiang@huawei.com; >>>>>> dots-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG ; dots@ietf.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-dots- >>>> signal- >>>>>> channel-31: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Hi Mirja, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I wanted to check in with the status of the remaining Discuss = points >>>> for this >>>>>> document. I tried to go through the previous discussions and = have >> made >>>> my >>>>>> own analysis of where things stand, so hopefully we can compare >> notes. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Wed, May 01, 2019 at 07:42:31AM -0700, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind = via >>>> Datatracker >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> = -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >>>>>>> DISCUSS: >>>>>>> = -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 1) Port usage (see section 3): >>>>>>> The port request for DOTS was reviewed by the port expert team. = Some >>>>>>> members of the team were concerned about the assignment of a >> separate >>>>>>> port number for DOTS as Coap is used and already has a = designated >> port >>>>>>> number. I believe that Coap is used as a transport in the case = and >>>>>>> DOTS provides a separate service compared to what Coap is = usually >> used >>>>>>> for, however, it is not clear why DOTS needs a designated port. >>>>>>> Section 3 says that the port can either be preconfigured or >>>>>>> dynamically detected, therefore it is not clear why a fixed port = is >>>>>>> needed (see also section 7.1. of RFC7605). In the port review >> process >>>>>>> the authored argued that a port is needed to differentiate the = DOTS >>>>>>> service in the network. However, this is not an endorsed usage = for >>>>>>> port numbers (see section 6.2. of RFC7605). Further, I believe >>>>>>> assigning a fixed port might actually add an attack vector for = DOTS, >>>>>>> either by DDoSing the respective port at the DOTS server, or any >>>> attempt >>>>>> to block DOTS traffic on the network from the DOTS client to the = DOTS >>>> server. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> If I understand correctly you were supporting a port allocation, = but >>>> wanted >>>>>> the document to be more clear about its usage and necessity. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> There were some text changes, so that we now have: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> In some cases, a DOTS client and server may have mutual agreement = to >>>>>> use a specific port number, such as by explicit configuration or >>>>>> dynamic discovery [I-D.ietf-dots-server-discovery]. Absent such >>>>>> mutual agreement, the DOTS signal channel MUST run over port = number >>>>>> TBD as defined in Section 9.1, for both UDP and TCP. In order to >> use >>>>>> a distinct port number (as opposed to TBD), DOTS clients and = servers >>>>>> SHOULD support a configurable parameter to supply the port number = to >>>>>> use. The rationale for not using the default port number 5684 >>>>>> ((D)TLS CoAP) is to allow for differentiated behaviors in >>>>>> environments where both a DOTS gateway and an IoT gateway (e.g., >>>>>> Figure 3 of [RFC7452]) are present. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Does that address your concerns? >>>>=20 >>>> I think this still leaves my original question open. I agree that = using >>>> port 5684 is no alternative. However, I still don=E2=80=99t see why = a fixed >> port >>>> is needed at all. In all scenarios described either the server IP >> address >>>> needs to be configured or a detection mechanism is used. In both = cases >>>> this could be used to also configure or detect the port. >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> [Med] This comment would apply to other protocols as well such as = SIP >> (for which more than one port was assigned), TURN (2 ports assigned), = etc. >> The same reasons for allocating ports for those protocols would apply = for >> DOTS. >>=20 >> The protocols have good reason for a fixed port. E.g. SIP contact >> information can be guessed/derived from other information but then a = known >> port is needed. Turns need to avoid conflicts with other ports. None = of >> these kind of reason are true for dots, as the IP address needs = always to >> be discovered or configured any in both cases I don=E2=80=99t see a = reason why the >> port number cannot be identified in the same process. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Having a fixed port allows for minimal setup for DOTS session >> establishment. >>=20 >> I don=E2=80=99t see configuring an IP more minimal than configuring = an IP and a >> port number. >>=20 >>> Moreover, the fixed port allocation helps with default settings such = as >> on-path firewalls. >>=20 >> This is dangerous because it opens exactly a port you want to = protect. >> It=E2=80=99s also not recommended to use port number to identify = network traffic, >> see also rfc7605 section 6.2. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> The specification does not mandate a discovery mechanism. = Furthermore, >> the server IP address may not be required to be explicitly configured = if >> (1) an anycast address is assigned for DOTS, >>=20 >> I don=E2=80=99t see this draft requesting an assignment of an anycast = address. So >> I guess this anycast address need to be configured as well? >>=20 >>> (2) if the client assumes that its default router is its DOTS server >> (e.g., LAN scenarios with DOTS gateways on CPEs), >>=20 >> This is also not discussed in this draft=E2=80=A6? >>=20 >>> or (3) redirect for which this specification returns only an = alternate >> IP address (but not any alternate port number). >>=20 >> Then you would need to add port information to the redirect. >>>=20 >>> Even if a way (e.g., DHCP) is used to configure the IP address, DHCP >> options are not designed to provision a port number. You may check = the >> list at: = https://www.iana.org/assignments/bootp-dhcp-parameters/bootp- >> dhcp-parameters.xhtml >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99m not an expert her but I guess you could even design a new = DHCP option >> that includes a port number. >>>=20 >>> If the DDoS attack is targeting the victim's infrastructure, the DNS >> server may not be reachable or available. >>>=20 >>> We need to accommodate a variety of target deployment scenarios, = hence >> this request. >>=20 >> Yes, but now of them seem to ned fixed port number to me because you = can >> always find a way to discover the IP and the port in the same step. >>=20 >> If there is a good reason for dots to have a fixed port instead of = using >> dynamic ports, I=E2=80=99m happy to assign one but you didn=E2=80=99t = really provide me a >> reason yet. >>=20 >> Also please note my initial point that use of a fixed port makes it = easier >> to attack the dots service and traffic directly. If you want to open = a >> firewall for dots traffic specifically, it is safer to configure your >> firewall based on the port used in the specific deployment setup than >> using a fixed port for all dots services everywhere. From nobody Wed Jul 3 03:13:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9892120733; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 03:12:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8ZwSioMeCtQi; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 03:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F5EA12029A; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 03:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 200116b82468ed0068c3f61f5d01a906.dip.versatel-1u1.de ([2001:16b8:2468:ed00:68c3:f61f:5d01:a906]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hicFv-0004tw-RK; Wed, 03 Jul 2019 12:12:52 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2B51@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 12:12:51 +0200 Cc: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , Benjamin Kaduk , "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" , "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" , "dots@ietf.org" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3044574C-65E5-4713-B2B5-02F305C8FDA2@kuehlewind.net> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2B51@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1562148775;85cfe98e; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hicFv-0004tw-RK Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?2-way_heartbeats_RE=3A___Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= =?utf-8?q?=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31=3A_=28with_DI?= =?utf-8?q?SCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 10:12:58 -0000 Hi Med, Please see below. > On 3. Jul 2019, at 10:50, = wrote: >=20 > Mirja,=20 >=20 > Your initial DISCUSS point was:=20 >=20 > (1) "heartbeat should only be send in one direction (as the > Other end will send an ack)" >=20 > We clarified that we need both HBs because there are cases where the = DOTS server needs to determine if the incoming link to the DOTS client = is saturated (due to an ongoing DDoS attack). It can conclude so because = it receives HBs from the client but no replies to its own HBs. The = server uses that information to tweak its mitigation strategy (in case a = mitigation is already in place). It also can conclude that the client = didn't detected an attack. Here is the point that I don't understand: Let=E2=80=99s assume both = ends are sending pings but the client does not receive any pings from = the server. I would also that in this case the client would also not = received any pongs from the server (in response to their own ping), = therefore believe that the connection is Brocken, then close the = connection and stop sending pings, which then will be detected by the = server. What do I miss? Mirja >=20 > To which you suggested the following: >=20 > (2) "what you described implies that the server should send the ping = and client sends the pong. This is fine." >=20 > We clarified that pings from the server may be discarded by on path = NATs/FWs. The HBs from the client are also meant to maintain a state = alive in those functions. >=20 > We also reminded that 8085 recommends "to ** independently ** check = both directions" for long-lived association. We are adhering to that = recommendation.=20 >=20 > Can you please let us know how we can achieve the above with one = single HB direction? Thank you. =20 >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] >> Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 2 juillet 2019 16:00 >> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN >> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; = draft-ietf-dots-signal- >> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The IESG; >> dots-chairs@ietf.org >> Objet : Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-dots-signal- >> channel-31: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 6) Section 4.7: "the DOTS >>>>>>> agent sends a heartbeat over the signal channel to maintain its >> half >>>>>>> of the channel. The DOTS agent similarly expects a heartbeat = from >>>>>>> its peer DOTS agent" >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> "DOTS servers MAY trigger their heartbeat requests immediately = after >>>>>>> receiving heartbeat probes from peer DOTS clients." >>>>>>> Actually heartbeat should only be send in one direction (as the >> other >>>>>>> end will send an ack) and the protocol should clearly specify = which >>>>>>> endpoint is responsible for triggering the ping. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I'm not sure I see resolution on this; do the authors still need = to >>>> answer why >>>>>> the "pong" reply cannot serve as a reverse-path heartbeat? >>>>>=20 >>>>> If the DOTS client domain is subjected to volumetric DDoS attack = and >> the >>>> incoming link is saturated, the pong response from the server will = not >>>> reach the client. DOTS server gets traffic from the client but = receives >> no >>>> responses to its ping requests indicating the client has not = detected >> the >>>> attack or, if an attack mitigation is in progress, it implies the >> applied >>>> DDoS mitigation actions are not yet effective to handle the DDoS = attack >>>> volume. >>>>=20 >>>> Yes, I understand what heartbeat are used for. However, what you >> described >>>> implies that the server should send the ping and client sends the = pong. >>>> This is fine. >>>=20 >>> [Med] Choosing the other way around may be problematic because of >> NAT/FWs. This is why the heartbeats from the server will fly right = after >> the one from the client so that we can use the warm mappings. Having = both >> directions allows to accommodate the scenario described by Tiru. >>>=20 >>> As you know, RFC4787 mandates the NAT outbound refresh behavior = (packets >> go from the internal side of the NAT to the external side of the NAT = to >> refresh the timer value) but not the NAT inbound refresh behavior. >>>=20 >>> The text however seems to imply that both server and client >>>> test their have connection separately and both send pings and = pongs. >> That >>>> doesn=E2=80=99t seem to be need. >>>=20 >>> [Med] In addition to the clarification above, we have also added a >> pointer to this part of 8085: >>>=20 >>> =3D=3D >>> A UDP application with a long-lived association between the sender >>> and receiver, ought to be designed so that the sender periodically >>> checks that the receiver still wants ("consents") to receive = traffic >>> and need to be designed to stop if there is no explicit = confirmation >>> of this [RFC7675]. Applications that require communications in two >>> directions to implement protocol functions (such as reliability or >>> congestion control) will need to independently check both = directions >>> = ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>> of communication, and may have to exchange keep-alive messages to >>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>> traverse middleboxes (see Section 3.5). >>> =3D=3D >>=20 >> Yes, you use keep-alive messages here. A ping on one direction and a >> pong/ack as reply in the direction. I=E2=80=99m not we are maybe = talking past each >> other=E2=80=A6 I think the following is sufficient >>=20 >>=20 >> Client ping =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94> >> <=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 server pong >>=20 >>=20 >> While what I read from the document is that you do this: >>=20 >> Client ping =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94> >> <=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 server pong >>=20 >> <=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 server ping >> Client pong =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94> >>=20 >> If that is not what your are doing you need to clarify this in the >> document. >>=20 >> If you actually want to have two different ping/pong=E2=80=99s you = need to explain >> me why you need both.=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Jul 3 03:16:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84FEB120753; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 03:16:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QzWZ4jNYmwbc; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 03:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E582F120735; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 03:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 200116b82468ed0068c3f61f5d01a906.dip.versatel-1u1.de ([2001:16b8:2468:ed00:68c3:f61f:5d01:a906]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hicJA-0000qE-6B; Wed, 03 Jul 2019 12:16:12 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <747CDE21-58FB-4C6A-B0D8-2686FAA38CCD@kuehlewind.net> Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 12:16:11 +0200 Cc: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" , "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "dots@ietf.org" , "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4901C501-F40A-4751-8233-0F17D258D47F@kuehlewind.net> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2BDE@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <747CDE21-58FB-4C6A-B0D8-2686FAA38CCD@kuehlewind.net> To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, Benjamin Kaduk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1562148978;ee780a28; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hicJA-0000qE-6B Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?default_port_number_RE=3A___Mirja_K=C3=BChlewin?= =?utf-8?q?d=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31=3A_=28with_D?= =?utf-8?q?ISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 10:16:20 -0000 > On 3. Jul 2019, at 12:08, Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: >=20 > draft-ietf-tls-dtls13 (which is now RFC 8446) Sorry, this is the DTLS draft, and not TLS, anyway I think it should a = normative reference. From nobody Wed Jul 3 03:25:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB7F12003F; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 03:25:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JctsKpwmTU7b; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 03:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F9D9120033; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 03:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 200116b82468ed0068c3f61f5d01a906.dip.versatel-1u1.de ([2001:16b8:2468:ed00:68c3:f61f:5d01:a906]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hicSB-0004vL-W2; Wed, 03 Jul 2019 12:25:32 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2ABA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 12:25:31 +0200 Cc: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , Benjamin Kaduk , "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" , "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" , "dots@ietf.org" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2ABA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1562149537;a640ad0b; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hicSB-0004vL-W2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Behavior_when_keep-alives_fail_=28RE=3A___Mirja?= =?utf-8?q?_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-3?= =?utf-8?q?1=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 10:25:40 -0000 Hi Med, See below. > On 3. Jul 2019, at 09:53, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >=20 > Hi Mirja,=20 >=20 > (Focusing on individual issues)=20 >=20 > Please see inline.=20 >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] >> Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 2 juillet 2019 16:00 >> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN >> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; = draft-ietf-dots-signal- >> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The IESG; >> dots-chairs@ietf.org >> Objet : Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-dots-signal- >> channel-31: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>=20 > ... >>>>>>> 10) The document should more explicitly provide more guidance = about >>>>>>> when a client should start a session and what should be done = (from >> the >>>>>>> client side) if a session is detected as inactive (other than = during >>>>>>> migration which is discussed a bit in 4.7). Is the assumption to >> have >>>>>>> basically permanently an active session or connect for migration = and >>>>>>> configuration requests separately at a time? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I think there was some clarifying text added, but please confirm = if >> you >>>> think it >>>>>> is sufficient. >>>>=20 >>>> Sorry, don=E2=80=99t see where text was added. Can you provide a = pointer? >>>=20 >>> [Med] We do have this text, for example: >>>=20 >>> The DOTS signal channel can be established between two DOTS agents >>> prior or during an attack. The DOTS signal channel is initiated by >>> the DOTS client. The DOTS client can then negotiate, configure, = and >>> retrieve the DOTS signal channel session behavior with its DOTS = peer >>> (Section 4.5). Once the signal channel is established, the DOTS >>> agents periodically send heartbeats to keep the channel active >>> (Section 4.7). At any time, the DOTS client may send a mitigation >>> request message (Section 4.4) to a DOTS server over the active = signal >>> channel. While mitigation is active (because of the higher >>> likelihood of packet loss during a DDoS attack), the DOTS server >>> periodically sends status messages to the client, including basic >>> mitigation feedback details. Mitigation remains active until the >>> DOTS client explicitly terminates mitigation, or the mitigation >>> lifetime expires. Also, the DOTS server may rely on the signal >>> channel session loss to trigger mitigation for pre-configured >>> mitigation requests (if any). >>=20 >> Okay thanks for for the pointer. What I think is missing are some >> sentences about what the client (or server) should do if the = keep-alive >> fails. Try to reconnect directly or just with the next request or >> whatever. Basically who should reconnect and when? >=20 > [Med] This is discussed in details in Section 4.7, in particular.=20 >=20 > As a generic rule, it is always the client who connects (see the = excerpt above).=20 >=20 > The server may use the failure to initiate automated mitigation (see = the excerpt above). More details are provided in other sections.=20 >=20 > There are several heartbeat failure cases to handle by the client. = Examples from 4.7 are provided below, fwiw:=20 >=20 > The DOTS client MUST NOT consider the DOTS signal channel session > terminated even after a maximum 'missing-hb-allowed' threshold is > reached. The DOTS client SHOULD keep on using the current DOTS > signal channel session to send heartbeat requests over it, so = that > the DOTS server knows the DOTS client has not disconnected the > DOTS signal channel session. >=20 > After the maximum 'missing-hb-allowed' threshold is reached, the > DOTS client SHOULD try to resume the (D)TLS session. The DOTS > client SHOULD send mitigation requests over the current DOTS > signal channel session, and in parallel, for example, try to > resume the (D)TLS session or use 0-RTT mode in DTLS 1.3 to > piggyback the mitigation request in the ClientHello message. >=20 > As soon as the link is no longer saturated, if traffic from the > DOTS server reaches the DOTS client over the current DOTS signal > channel session, the DOTS client can stop (D)TLS session > resumption or if (D)TLS session resumption is successful then > disconnect the current DOTS signal channel session. >=20 > Do you think additional text is needed? Actually to my understanding this will not work. Both TCP heartbeat and = Coap Ping are transmitted reliably. If you don=E2=80=99t receive an ack = for these transmissions you are not able to send any additional messages = and can only choose the connection. Mirja From nobody Wed Jul 3 03:47:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9629D120735; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 03:47:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EVVyh6fSj29t; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 03:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3061512021C; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 03:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.64]) by opfednr21.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45dyTz3by8z5x7b; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 12:47:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.76]) by opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45dyTz2tg8zDq7T; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 12:47:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM7E.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::54f9:a664:e400:452a%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 12:47:03 +0200 From: To: Mirja Kuehlewind , Benjamin Kaduk CC: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" , "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "dots@ietf.org" , "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?ZGVmYXVsdCBwb3J0IG51bWJlciBSRTogW0RvdHNdICBNaXJqYSBLw7xobGV3?= =?utf-8?B?aW5kJ3MgRGlzY3VzcyBvbiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWRvdHMtc2lnbmFsLWNoYW5u?= =?utf-8?Q?el-31:_(with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT)?= Thread-Index: AdUxg6WgIQonMga/RXuzKVnxm7VKxf//5asA///T8oA= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:47:02 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2CB1@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2BDE@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <747CDE21-58FB-4C6A-B0D8-2686FAA38CCD@kuehlewind.net> In-Reply-To: <747CDE21-58FB-4C6A-B0D8-2686FAA38CCD@kuehlewind.net> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?default_port_number_RE=3A___Mirja_K=C3=BChlewin?= =?utf-8?q?d=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31=3A_=28with_D?= =?utf-8?q?ISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 10:47:08 -0000 UmUtLA0KDQpQbGVhc2Ugc2VlIGlubGluZS4NCg0KQ2hlZXJzLA0KTWVkDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1NZXNz YWdlIGQnb3JpZ2luZS0tLS0tDQo+IERlIDogTWlyamEgS3VlaGxld2luZCBbbWFpbHRvOmlldGZA a3VlaGxld2luZC5uZXRdDQo+IEVudm95w6kgOiBtZXJjcmVkaSAzIGp1aWxsZXQgMjAxOSAxMjow OA0KPiDDgCA6IEJPVUNBREFJUiBNb2hhbWVkIFRHSS9PTE47IEJlbmphbWluIEthZHVrDQo+IENj IDogZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1kb3RzLXNpZ25hbC1jaGFubmVsQGlldGYub3JnOyBLb25kYSwgVGlydW1h bGVzd2FyIFJlZGR5Ow0KPiBkb3RzQGlldGYub3JnOyBmcmFuay54aWFsaWFuZ0BodWF3ZWkuY29t OyBUaGUgSUVTRzsgZG90cy1jaGFpcnNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gT2JqZXQgOiBSZTogZGVmYXVsdCBw b3J0IG51bWJlciBSRTogW0RvdHNdIE1pcmphIEvDvGhsZXdpbmQncyBEaXNjdXNzIG9uDQo+IGRy YWZ0LWlldGYtZG90cy1zaWduYWwtY2hhbm5lbC0zMTogKHdpdGggRElTQ1VTUyBhbmQgQ09NTUVO VCkNCj4gDQo+IEhpIE1lZCwNCj4gDQo+IFNlZSBiZWxvdy4NCj4gDQo+ID4gT24gMy4gSnVsIDIw MTksIGF0IDExOjQyLCA8bW9oYW1lZC5ib3VjYWRhaXJAb3JhbmdlLmNvbT4NCj4gPG1vaGFtZWQu 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dG8gcmVvcGVuIHRoZSBwb2ludC4gUkZDODQ0NiBpcyBhbHJlYWR5IGNpdGVkIGFzIG5vcm1hdGl2 ZS4gZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi10bHMtZHRsczEzIGlzIGNpdGVkIGFzIGluZm9ybWF0aXZlIGJlY2F1c2Ug d2UgZG9u4oCZdCB1c2UgYW55IG5vcm1hdGl2ZSBsYW5ndWFnZSB3aGVuIGNpdGluZyBpdC4gVW5s ZXNzIEknbSBtaXN0YWtlbiwgd2UgZGlkIGFscmVhZHkgZGlzY3Vzc2VkIHRoZSBvdGhlcnMgd2l0 aCBCZW4gZHVyaW5nIGhpcyBBRCByZXZpZXcuIA0KDQogVGhhdOKAmXMgbm90IGhvdyB0aGlzIGlz IHN1cHBvc2VkIHRvDQo+IHdvcmsuDQo+IA0KPiBCZW4sIHBsZWFzZSBkb3VibGUtY2hlY2sgdGhl IHJlZmVyZW5jZXMgYW5kIHByb3ZpZGUgYWR2aXNlIQ0KPiANCj4gTWlyamENCj4gDQoNCg== From nobody Wed Jul 3 03:48:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C17ED1204E0; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 03:48:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TttaCYz6ExNi; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 03:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4FC5D12021C; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 03:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar07.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.9]) by opfedar24.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45dyWP4TJnz5y9w; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 12:48:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.82]) by opfedar07.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45dyWP2Vmbz5vMv; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 12:48:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM5E.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::849f:f804:b713:d99a%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 12:48:17 +0200 From: To: Mirja Kuehlewind CC: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "Benjamin Kaduk" , "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" , "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" , "dots@ietf.org" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?QmVoYXZpb3Igd2hlbiBrZWVwLWFsaXZlcyBmYWlsIChSRTogW0RvdHNdICBN?= =?utf-8?B?aXJqYSBLw7xobGV3aW5kJ3MgRGlzY3VzcyBvbiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWRvdHMt?= =?utf-8?Q?signal-channel-31:_(with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT)?= Thread-Index: AQHVMYmnynjuqGVJJkeMQs1PdNNQfaa4tPKw Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:48:16 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2CC5@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2ABA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Behavior_when_keep-alives_fail_=28RE=3A___Mirja?= =?utf-8?q?_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-3?= =?utf-8?q?1=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 10:48:22 -0000 TWlyamEsIA0KDQo+IEFjdHVhbGx5IHRvIG15IHVuZGVyc3RhbmRpbmcgdGhpcyB3aWxsIG5vdCB3 b3JrLiBCb3RoIFRDUCBoZWFydGJlYXQgYW5kDQo+IENvYXAgUGluZyBhcmUgdHJhbnNtaXR0ZWQg cmVsaWFibHkuIElmIHlvdSBkb27igJl0IHJlY2VpdmUgYW4gYWNrIGZvciB0aGVzZQ0KPiB0cmFu c21pc3Npb25zIHlvdSBhcmUgbm90IGFibGUgdG8gc2VuZCBhbnkgYWRkaXRpb25hbCBtZXNzYWdl cyBhbmQgY2FuDQo+IG9ubHkgY2hvb3NlIHRoZSBjb25uZWN0aW9uLg0KDQpUaGlzIGJlaGF2aW9y IGlzIGltcGxlbWVudGVkIGFuZCB0ZXN0ZWQgYmV0d2VlbiB0d28gaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb25zLiBU aGUgZXhhY3QgcHJvY2VkdXJlIGlzIGRlc2NyaWJlZCBpbiB0aGUgZHJhZnQsIGZ3aXc6IA0KDQo9 PQ0KICAgV2hlbiBhIENvbmZpcm1hYmxlICJDb0FQIFBpbmciIGlzIHNlbnQsIGFuZCBpZiB0aGVy ZSBpcyBubyByZXNwb25zZSwNCiAgIHRoZSAiQ29BUCBQaW5nIiBpcyByZXRyYW5zbWl0dGVkIG1h eC1yZXRyYW5zbWl0IG51bWJlciBvZiB0aW1lcyBieQ0KICAgdGhlIENvQVAgbGF5ZXIgdXNpbmcg YW4gaW5pdGlhbCB0aW1lb3V0IHNldCB0byBhIHJhbmRvbSBkdXJhdGlvbg0KICAgYmV0d2VlbiBh 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YW5kIGNhbg0KPiBvbmx5IGNob29zZSB0aGUgY29ubmVjdGlvbi4NCj4gDQo+IE1pcmphDQo+IA0K PiANCg0K From nobody Wed Jul 3 03:54:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A7D012025C; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 03:54:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bo-DV9Y2shB0; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 03:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE77D12021C; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 03:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar00.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.11]) by opfedar25.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45dyg00dbVz8wCj; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 12:54:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.23]) by opfedar00.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45dyfz5pNLzCqjh; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 12:54:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM41.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::857d:4f67:b0a7:10d7%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 12:54:51 +0200 From: To: Mirja Kuehlewind CC: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "Benjamin Kaduk" , "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" , "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" , "dots@ietf.org" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?Mi13YXkgaGVhcnRiZWF0cyBSRTogW0RvdHNdICBNaXJqYSBLw7xobGV3aW5k?= =?utf-8?B?J3MgRGlzY3VzcyBvbiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWRvdHMtc2lnbmFsLWNoYW5uZWwt?= =?utf-8?Q?31:_(with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT)?= Thread-Index: AQHVMYfho8ecCUIFXUW+bnCCxBtBKKa4trVg Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:54:50 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2CDD@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2B51@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <3044574C-65E5-4713-B2B5-02F305C8FDA2@kuehlewind.net> In-Reply-To: <3044574C-65E5-4713-B2B5-02F305C8FDA2@kuehlewind.net> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?2-way_heartbeats_RE=3A___Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= =?utf-8?q?=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31=3A_=28with_DI?= =?utf-8?q?SCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 10:54:57 -0000 UmUtLA0KDQpQbGVhc2Ugc2VlIGlubGluZS4NCg0KQ2hlZXJzLA0KTWVkDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1NZXNz YWdlIGQnb3JpZ2luZS0tLS0tDQo+IERlwqA6IE1pcmphIEt1ZWhsZXdpbmQgW21haWx0bzppZXRm QGt1ZWhsZXdpbmQubmV0XQ0KPiBFbnZvecOpwqA6IG1lcmNyZWRpIDMganVpbGxldCAyMDE5IDEy OjEzDQo+IMOAwqA6IEJPVUNBREFJUiBNb2hhbWVkIFRHSS9PTE4NCj4gQ2PCoDogS29uZGEsIFRp cnVtYWxlc3dhciBSZWRkeTsgQmVuamFtaW4gS2FkdWs7IGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtZG90cy1zaWduYWwt DQo+IGNoYW5uZWxAaWV0Zi5vcmc7IGZyYW5rLnhpYWxpYW5nQGh1YXdlaS5jb207IGRvdHNAaWV0 Zi5vcmc7IFRoZSBJRVNHOw0KPiBkb3RzLWNoYWlyc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBPYmpldMKgOiBSZTog Mi13YXkgaGVhcnRiZWF0cyBSRTogW0RvdHNdIE1pcmphIEvDvGhsZXdpbmQncyBEaXNjdXNzIG9u DQo+IGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtZG90cy1zaWduYWwtY2hhbm5lbC0zMTogKHdpdGggRElTQ1VTUyBhbmQg Q09NTUVOVCkNCj4gDQo+IEhpIE1lZCwNCj4gDQo+IFBsZWFzZSBzZWUgYmVsb3cuDQo+IA0KPiA+ IE9uIDMuIEp1bCAyMDE5LCBhdCAxMDo1MCwgPG1vaGFtZWQuYm91Y2FkYWlyQG9yYW5nZS5jb20+ 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cyB0aGF0IHlvdSBkbyB0aGlzOg0KPiA+Pg0KPiA+PiBDbGllbnQgcGluZyDigJTigJTigJTigJTi gJQ+DQo+ID4+ICAgICAgICAgICAgPOKAlOKAlOKAlOKAlCBzZXJ2ZXIgcG9uZw0KPiA+Pg0KPiA+ PiAgICAgICAgICAgIDzigJTigJTigJTigJQgc2VydmVyIHBpbmcNCj4gPj4gQ2xpZW50IHBvbmcg 4oCU4oCU4oCU4oCU4oCUPg0KPiA+Pg0KPiA+PiBJZiB0aGF0IGlzIG5vdCB3aGF0IHlvdXIgYXJl IGRvaW5nIHlvdSBuZWVkIHRvIGNsYXJpZnkgdGhpcyBpbiB0aGUNCj4gPj4gZG9jdW1lbnQuDQo+ ID4+DQo+ID4+IElmIHlvdSBhY3R1YWxseSB3YW50IHRvIGhhdmUgdHdvIGRpZmZlcmVudCBwaW5n L3BvbmfigJlzIHlvdSBuZWVkIHRvDQo+IGV4cGxhaW4NCj4gPj4gbWUgd2h5IHlvdSBuZWVkIGJv dGguDQo+ID4NCg0K From nobody Wed Jul 3 05:46:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 310D6120045; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 05:46:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QUyBha4uEk3e; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 05:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C7BB12000F; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 05:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ip-109-42-2-15.web.vodafone.de ([109.42.2.15] helo=2-10.mgmt.ericsson.se); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hieeI-00059b-8o; Wed, 03 Jul 2019 14:46:10 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2CC5@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 14:46:04 +0200 Cc: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , Benjamin Kaduk , "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" , "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" , "dots@ietf.org" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2ABA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2CC5@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1562157975;624c890d; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hieeI-00059b-8o Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Behavior_when_keep-alives_fail_=28RE=3A___Mirja?= =?utf-8?q?_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-3?= =?utf-8?q?1=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 12:46:19 -0000 Hi Med, See below. > On 3. Jul 2019, at 12:48, = wrote: >=20 > Mirja,=20 >=20 >> Actually to my understanding this will not work. Both TCP heartbeat = and >> Coap Ping are transmitted reliably. If you don=E2=80=99t receive an = ack for these >> transmissions you are not able to send any additional messages and = can >> only choose the connection. >=20 > This behavior is implemented and tested between two implementations. = The exact procedure is described in the draft, fwiw:=20 >=20 > =3D=3D > When a Confirmable "CoAP Ping" is sent, and if there is no response, > the "CoAP Ping" is retransmitted max-retransmit number of times by > the CoAP layer using an initial timeout set to a random duration > between ack-timeout and (ack-timeout*ack-random-factor) and > exponential back-off between retransmissions. By choosing the > recommended transmission parameters, the "CoAP Ping" will timeout > after 45 seconds. If the DOTS agent does not receive any response > from the peer DOTS agent for 'missing-hb-allowed' number of > consecutive "CoAP Ping" Confirmable messages, it concludes that the > DOTS signal channel session is disconnected. A DOTS client MUST NOT > transmit a "CoAP Ping" while waiting for the previous "CoAP Ping" > response from the same DOTS server. > =3D=3D First, can you explain why you need 'missing-hb-allowed=E2=80=99? If the = ping is transmitted reliably, one =E2=80=9Cmissed=E2=80=9D should be = enough to conclude that the session is disconnected. Yes, as Coap Ping is used, the agent should not only conclude that the = DOTS signal session is disconnected but also the Coap session and not = send any further Coap messages anymore.=20 If you want to send further UDP datagram you should it unreliability and = not more often then one per 3 seconds.=20 Mirja >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] >> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 3 juillet 2019 12:26 >> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN >> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; = draft-ietf-dots-signal- >> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The IESG; >> dots-chairs@ietf.org >> Objet : Re: Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: [Dots] Mirja = K=C3=BChlewind's >> Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and = COMMENT) >>=20 >> Hi Med, >>=20 >> See below. >>=20 >>> On 3. Jul 2019, at 09:53, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Mirja, >>>=20 >>> (Focusing on individual issues) >>>=20 >>> Please see inline. >>>=20 >>> Cheers, >>> Med >>>=20 >>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] >>>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 2 juillet 2019 16:00 >>>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN >>>> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; = draft-ietf-dots-signal- >>>> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The = IESG; >>>> dots-chairs@ietf.org >>>> Objet : Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-dots-signal- >>>> channel-31: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>>>=20 >>> ... >>>>>>>>> 10) The document should more explicitly provide more guidance >> about >>>>>>>>> when a client should start a session and what should be done = (from >>>> the >>>>>>>>> client side) if a session is detected as inactive (other than >> during >>>>>>>>> migration which is discussed a bit in 4.7). Is the assumption = to >>>> have >>>>>>>>> basically permanently an active session or connect for = migration >> and >>>>>>>>> configuration requests separately at a time? >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> I think there was some clarifying text added, but please = confirm if >>>> you >>>>>> think it >>>>>>>> is sufficient. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Sorry, don=E2=80=99t see where text was added. Can you provide a = pointer? >>>>>=20 >>>>> [Med] We do have this text, for example: >>>>>=20 >>>>> The DOTS signal channel can be established between two DOTS agents >>>>> prior or during an attack. The DOTS signal channel is initiated = by >>>>> the DOTS client. The DOTS client can then negotiate, configure, = and >>>>> retrieve the DOTS signal channel session behavior with its DOTS = peer >>>>> (Section 4.5). Once the signal channel is established, the DOTS >>>>> agents periodically send heartbeats to keep the channel active >>>>> (Section 4.7). At any time, the DOTS client may send a mitigation >>>>> request message (Section 4.4) to a DOTS server over the active = signal >>>>> channel. While mitigation is active (because of the higher >>>>> likelihood of packet loss during a DDoS attack), the DOTS server >>>>> periodically sends status messages to the client, including basic >>>>> mitigation feedback details. Mitigation remains active until the >>>>> DOTS client explicitly terminates mitigation, or the mitigation >>>>> lifetime expires. Also, the DOTS server may rely on the signal >>>>> channel session loss to trigger mitigation for pre-configured >>>>> mitigation requests (if any). >>>>=20 >>>> Okay thanks for for the pointer. What I think is missing are some >>>> sentences about what the client (or server) should do if the = keep-alive >>>> fails. Try to reconnect directly or just with the next request or >>>> whatever. Basically who should reconnect and when? >>>=20 >>> [Med] This is discussed in details in Section 4.7, in particular. >>>=20 >>> As a generic rule, it is always the client who connects (see the = excerpt >> above). >>>=20 >>> The server may use the failure to initiate automated mitigation (see = the >> excerpt above). More details are provided in other sections. >>>=20 >>> There are several heartbeat failure cases to handle by the client. >> Examples from 4.7 are provided below, fwiw: >>>=20 >>> The DOTS client MUST NOT consider the DOTS signal channel = session >>> terminated even after a maximum 'missing-hb-allowed' threshold = is >>> reached. The DOTS client SHOULD keep on using the current DOTS >>> signal channel session to send heartbeat requests over it, so = that >>> the DOTS server knows the DOTS client has not disconnected the >>> DOTS signal channel session. >>>=20 >>> After the maximum 'missing-hb-allowed' threshold is reached, the >>> DOTS client SHOULD try to resume the (D)TLS session. The DOTS >>> client SHOULD send mitigation requests over the current DOTS >>> signal channel session, and in parallel, for example, try to >>> resume the (D)TLS session or use 0-RTT mode in DTLS 1.3 to >>> piggyback the mitigation request in the ClientHello message. >>>=20 >>> As soon as the link is no longer saturated, if traffic from the >>> DOTS server reaches the DOTS client over the current DOTS signal >>> channel session, the DOTS client can stop (D)TLS session >>> resumption or if (D)TLS session resumption is successful then >>> disconnect the current DOTS signal channel session. >>>=20 >>> Do you think additional text is needed? >>=20 >> Actually to my understanding this will not work. Both TCP heartbeat = and >> Coap Ping are transmitted reliably. If you don=E2=80=99t receive an = ack for these >> transmissions you are not able to send any additional messages and = can >> only choose the connection. >>=20 >> Mirja >>=20 >>=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Jul 3 05:47:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BA7F120043; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 05:47:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jLEdLr2w-Tnp; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 05:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C2F312000F; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 05:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ip-109-42-2-15.web.vodafone.de ([109.42.2.15] helo=2-10.mgmt.ericsson.se); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hiefZ-00077j-Ta; Wed, 03 Jul 2019 14:47:30 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2CDD@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 14:47:25 +0200 Cc: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" , "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "dots@ietf.org" , "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , Benjamin Kaduk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1B8A2734-1A1E-474E-BE93-A8CDEF47AAAA@kuehlewind.net> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2B51@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <3044574C-65E5-4713-B2B5-02F305C8FDA2@kuehlewind.net> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2CDD@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1562158053;9407716c; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hiefZ-00077j-Ta Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?2-way_heartbeats_RE=3A___Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= =?utf-8?q?=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31=3A_=28with_DI?= =?utf-8?q?SCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 12:47:35 -0000 Hi Med, See below. > On 3. Jul 2019, at 12:54, = wrote: >=20 > Re-, >=20 > Please see inline. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] >> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 3 juillet 2019 12:13 >> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN >> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; = draft-ietf-dots-signal- >> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The IESG; >> dots-chairs@ietf.org >> Objet : Re: 2-way heartbeats RE: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's = Discuss on >> draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>=20 >> Hi Med, >>=20 >> Please see below. >>=20 >>> On 3. Jul 2019, at 10:50, >> wrote: >>>=20 >>> Mirja, >>>=20 >>> Your initial DISCUSS point was: >>>=20 >>> (1) "heartbeat should only be send in one direction (as the >>> Other end will send an ack)" >>>=20 >>> We clarified that we need both HBs because there are cases where the >> DOTS server needs to determine if the incoming link to the DOTS = client is >> saturated (due to an ongoing DDoS attack). It can conclude so because = it >> receives HBs from the client but no replies to its own HBs. The = server >> uses that information to tweak its mitigation strategy (in case a >> mitigation is already in place). It also can conclude that the client >> didn't detected an attack. >>=20 >> Here is the point that I don't understand: Let=E2=80=99s assume both = ends are >> sending pings but the client does not receive any pings from the = server. I >> would also that in this case the client would also not received any = pongs >> from the server (in response to their own ping), >=20 > [Med] Yes. The draft says: >=20 > In case of a massive DDoS attack that saturates the incoming link(s) > to the DOTS client, all traffic from the DOTS server to the DOTS > client will likely be dropped, although the DOTS server receives > heartbeat requests in addition to DOTS messages sent by the DOTS > client. =20 >=20 > therefore believe that >> the connection is Brocken, then close the connection and stop sending >> pings, which then will be detected by the server. What do I miss? >=20 > [Med] No, we request the client to not close the connection under such = conditions but continue to send the HBs to the server so that it can = detect the link saturation issue: >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D > In this scenario, DOTS clients MUST behave differently to > handle message transmission and DOTS signal channel session > liveliness during link saturation: >=20 > The DOTS client MUST NOT consider the DOTS signal channel session > terminated even after a maximum 'missing-hb-allowed' threshold is > reached. The DOTS client SHOULD keep on using the current DOTS > signal channel session to send heartbeat requests over it, so = that > the DOTS server knows the DOTS client has not disconnected the > DOTS signal channel session. >=20 > After the maximum 'missing-hb-allowed' threshold is reached, the > DOTS client SHOULD try to resume the (D)TLS session. The DOTS > client SHOULD send mitigation requests over the current DOTS > signal channel session, and in parallel, for example, try to > resume the (D)TLS session or use 0-RTT mode in DTLS 1.3 to > piggyback the mitigation request in the ClientHello message >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D I believe this is now the same conversation as in the other thread about = use of keep-alives in vernal, so let=E2=80=99s keep to there. Mirja >=20 >>=20 >> Mirja >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> To which you suggested the following: >>>=20 >>> (2) "what you described implies that the server should send the ping = and >> client sends the pong. This is fine." >>>=20 >>> We clarified that pings from the server may be discarded by on path >> NATs/FWs. The HBs from the client are also meant to maintain a state = alive >> in those functions. >>>=20 >>> We also reminded that 8085 recommends "to ** independently ** check = both >> directions" for long-lived association. We are adhering to that >> recommendation. >>>=20 >>> Can you please let us know how we can achieve the above with one = single >> HB direction? Thank you. >>>=20 >>> Cheers, >>> Med >>>=20 >>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] >>>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 2 juillet 2019 16:00 >>>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN >>>> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; = draft-ietf-dots-signal- >>>> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The = IESG; >>>> dots-chairs@ietf.org >>>> Objet : Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-dots-signal- >>>> channel-31: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> 6) Section 4.7: "the DOTS >>>>>>>>> agent sends a heartbeat over the signal channel to maintain = its >>>> half >>>>>>>>> of the channel. The DOTS agent similarly expects a heartbeat = from >>>>>>>>> its peer DOTS agent" >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> "DOTS servers MAY trigger their heartbeat requests immediately >> after >>>>>>>>> receiving heartbeat probes from peer DOTS clients." >>>>>>>>> Actually heartbeat should only be send in one direction (as = the >>>> other >>>>>>>>> end will send an ack) and the protocol should clearly specify >> which >>>>>>>>> endpoint is responsible for triggering the ping. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> I'm not sure I see resolution on this; do the authors still = need to >>>>>> answer why >>>>>>>> the "pong" reply cannot serve as a reverse-path heartbeat? >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> If the DOTS client domain is subjected to volumetric DDoS attack = and >>>> the >>>>>> incoming link is saturated, the pong response from the server = will >> not >>>>>> reach the client. DOTS server gets traffic from the client but >> receives >>>> no >>>>>> responses to its ping requests indicating the client has not = detected >>>> the >>>>>> attack or, if an attack mitigation is in progress, it implies the >>>> applied >>>>>> DDoS mitigation actions are not yet effective to handle the DDoS >> attack >>>>>> volume. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Yes, I understand what heartbeat are used for. However, what you >>>> described >>>>>> implies that the server should send the ping and client sends the >> pong. >>>>>> This is fine. >>>>>=20 >>>>> [Med] Choosing the other way around may be problematic because of >>>> NAT/FWs. This is why the heartbeats from the server will fly right >> after >>>> the one from the client so that we can use the warm mappings. = Having >> both >>>> directions allows to accommodate the scenario described by Tiru. >>>>>=20 >>>>> As you know, RFC4787 mandates the NAT outbound refresh behavior >> (packets >>>> go from the internal side of the NAT to the external side of the = NAT to >>>> refresh the timer value) but not the NAT inbound refresh behavior. >>>>>=20 >>>>> The text however seems to imply that both server and client >>>>>> test their have connection separately and both send pings and = pongs. >>>> That >>>>>> doesn=E2=80=99t seem to be need. >>>>>=20 >>>>> [Med] In addition to the clarification above, we have also added a >>>> pointer to this part of 8085: >>>>>=20 >>>>> =3D=3D >>>>> A UDP application with a long-lived association between the sender >>>>> and receiver, ought to be designed so that the sender periodically >>>>> checks that the receiver still wants ("consents") to receive = traffic >>>>> and need to be designed to stop if there is no explicit = confirmation >>>>> of this [RFC7675]. Applications that require communications in = two >>>>> directions to implement protocol functions (such as reliability or >>>>> congestion control) will need to independently check both = directions >>>>> = ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>>>> of communication, and may have to exchange keep-alive messages to >>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>>>> traverse middleboxes (see Section 3.5). >>>>> =3D=3D >>>>=20 >>>> Yes, you use keep-alive messages here. A ping on one direction and = a >>>> pong/ack as reply in the direction. I=E2=80=99m not we are maybe = talking past >> each >>>> other=E2=80=A6 I think the following is sufficient >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Client ping =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94> >>>> <=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 server pong >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> While what I read from the document is that you do this: >>>>=20 >>>> Client ping =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94> >>>> <=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 server pong >>>>=20 >>>> <=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 server ping >>>> Client pong =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94> >>>>=20 >>>> If that is not what your are doing you need to clarify this in the >>>> document. >>>>=20 >>>> If you actually want to have two different ping/pong=E2=80=99s you = need to >> explain >>>> me why you need both. >>>=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Jul 3 06:46:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4567120059; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 06:46:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bjr8TNeqNTcy; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 06:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC0F61200C3; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 06:46:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr07.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.71]) by opfednr22.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45f2SZ2c65z10bC; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 15:46:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.54]) by opfednr07.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45f2SZ1gvKzFpWq; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 15:46:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM7D.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::bcfe:4850:e646:f223%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 15:46:05 +0200 From: To: Mirja Kuehlewind CC: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "Benjamin Kaduk" , "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" , "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" , "dots@ietf.org" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?QmVoYXZpb3Igd2hlbiBrZWVwLWFsaXZlcyBmYWlsIChSRTogW0RvdHNdICBN?= =?utf-8?B?aXJqYSBLw7xobGV3aW5kJ3MgRGlzY3VzcyBvbiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWRvdHMt?= =?utf-8?Q?signal-channel-31:_(with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT)?= Thread-Index: AQHVMZ1NUtpcwm0lbEyTBi3tKDy/rKa44R1w Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 13:46:04 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2F77@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2ABA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2CC5@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Behavior_when_keep-alives_fail_=28RE=3A___Mirja?= =?utf-8?q?_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-3?= =?utf-8?q?1=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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ESMTP id B2728120096; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 07:04:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hUR3HCh7LMLs; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 07:04:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.jpshallow.com (mail.jpshallow.com [217.40.240.153]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0179E120091; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 07:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=N01332) by mail.jpshallow.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hifs1-0007PX-EJ; Wed, 03 Jul 2019 15:04:25 +0100 From: "Jon Shallow" To: , "'Mirja Kuehlewind'" , , "'Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy'" , , , "'The IESG'" , , "'Benjamin Kaduk'" References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2ABA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2CC5@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2F77@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2F77@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 15:04:25 +0100 Message-ID: <06e901d531a8$38f38d90$aadaa8b0$@jpshallow.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQHD6CHHXptH0G8Exk79rrRA9rtJXgH6mckIAd1vi7sB26j+qgH8ZsBTpp39ZNA= Content-Language: en-gb Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Behavior_when_keep-alives_fail_=28RE=3A___Mirja?= =?utf-8?q?_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-3?= =?utf-8?q?1=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 14:04:36 -0000 Hi Mirja, As an implementer of DOTS I have the following comments to make to try = and help understand what is going on with the Heartbeats In the peace time scenario, it is assumed that the heartbeats function = through the network in both directions and that it is possible to = disable one or both of the heartbeat directions. Heartbeats can use UDP or TCP depending on the session set up based on = the initial connection (UDP is preferred over TCP). With UDP, there is = a CoAP Ping (Empty request CON 0.00) and a CoAP RST response. With TCP, = there is a Coap Ping (7.02) and a Coap Pong (7.03) response. For UDP, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252#section-4.8.2 defines the = ACK_TIMEOUT, ACK_RANDOM_FACTOR, and MAX_RETRANSMIT which map onto the = DOTS heartbeat parameters ack-timeout, ack-random-factor and = max-retransmit. These 3 parameters determine the elapsed time when = there has been transmission failure. There is an additional DOTS = parameter missing-hb-allowed to support more than one heartbeat loss = should it be needed before determining that a DOTS agent has really gone = away (instead of, say, going through a reboot or a restart cycle). =20 When handling an attack scenario, there is a good chance that the = inbound (DOTS server to DOTS client) data path is flooded /overloaded = and hence packet loss (but not the case with all DDoS type scenarios). A significant purpose of the DOTS client generating a heartbeat is to = make sure that any NAT devices in the path maintain their NAT = associations and allow any returning responses (which could be = unsolicited if the observe of a mitigation is active). Even in the attack scenario, the DOTS server will see these heartbeat = messages, but can only deduce that the connection from the DOTS client = to the DOTS server is good - but cannot make any assumptions about = traffic flowing in the other direction. However, the DOTS client may not get a ping response due to the flooded = inbound pipe. If the DOTS client has initiated a mitigation request, = then it is unsafe for the DOTS client to close down the session - it = will need to refresh the mitigation requests / create new ones even if = the mitigation is not being that effective as traffic can still flow to = the server. It is possible that the DOTS server has just restarted - = hence the requirement to try and open up a new session in parallel. If the DOTS server also initiates heartbeat messages, sees the DOTS = client pings, but does not see any response to the DOTS server ping, the = DOTS server can now deduce that the outbound pipe is good, but the = inbound pipe to the DOTS client is failing. The DOTS server then does = not need to close down the session as it will be expecting additional = mitigation requests from the DOTS client - even though the DOTS server = Coap Ping is failing. Furthermore, if the DOTS server initiates its CoAP ping on receipt of = the DOTS client Coap Ping, then there is a good chance that the NAT = sessions are "warm" on any intervening NAT devices. If the DOTS server = initiates the Coap Ping on its own cycle, there is a chance that it may = not get through and confuse the logic. Regards Jon > -----Original Message----- > From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = supjps-mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > Sent: 03 July 2019 14:46 > To: Mirja Kuehlewind > Cc: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; Konda, Tirumaleswar = Reddy; > dots@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; The IESG; = dots-chairs@ietf.org; > Benjamin Kaduk > Subject: Re: [Dots] Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: Mirja = K=C3=BChlewind's > Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and = COMMENT) >=20 > Re-, >=20 > Please see inline. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] > > Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 3 juillet 2019 14:46 > > =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN > > Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; = draft-ietf-dots-signal- > > channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The = IESG; > > dots-chairs@ietf.org > > Objet : Re: Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: [Dots] Mirja = K=C3=BChlewind's > > Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and > COMMENT) > > > > Hi Med, > > > > See below. > > > > > On 3. Jul 2019, at 12:48, > > wrote: > > > > > > Mirja, > > > > > >> Actually to my understanding this will not work. Both TCP = heartbeat and > > >> Coap Ping are transmitted reliably. If you don=E2=80=99t receive = an ack for > > these > > >> transmissions you are not able to send any additional messages = and can > > >> only choose the connection. > > > > > > This behavior is implemented and tested between two = implementations. > The > > exact procedure is described in the draft, fwiw: > > > > > > =3D=3D > > > When a Confirmable "CoAP Ping" is sent, and if there is no = response, > > > the "CoAP Ping" is retransmitted max-retransmit number of times = by > > > the CoAP layer using an initial timeout set to a random duration > > > between ack-timeout and (ack-timeout*ack-random-factor) and > > > exponential back-off between retransmissions. By choosing the > > > recommended transmission parameters, the "CoAP Ping" will = timeout > > > after 45 seconds. If the DOTS agent does not receive any = response > > > from the peer DOTS agent for 'missing-hb-allowed' number of > > > consecutive "CoAP Ping" Confirmable messages, it concludes that = the > > > DOTS signal channel session is disconnected. A DOTS client MUST = NOT > > > transmit a "CoAP Ping" while waiting for the previous "CoAP = Ping" > > > response from the same DOTS server. > > > =3D=3D > > > > First, can you explain why you need 'missing-hb-allowed=E2=80=99? >=20 > [Med] because we need to make sure this a "real/durable" session = defunct, > not a false positive. For example, this would have implications on the = server > as it may erroneously start automated mitigations (because it = concludes the > session is lost). >=20 > If the ping is > > transmitted reliably, one =E2=80=9Cmissed=E2=80=9D should be enough = to conclude that the > > session is disconnected. >=20 > [Med] Hmm, under some DDoS attacks, both endpoints may be > sending/replying to confirmable ping messages, but the reply may get > dropped. The session is not disconnected in such case. >=20 > > > > Yes, as Coap Ping is used, the agent should not only conclude that = the > > DOTS signal session is disconnected but also the Coap session and = not send > > any further Coap messages anymore. > > > > If you want to send further UDP datagram you should it unreliability = and > > not more often then one per 3 seconds. > > > > Mirja > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Med > > > > > >> -----Message d'origine----- > > >> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] > > >> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 3 juillet 2019 12:26 > > >> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN > > >> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; = draft-ietf-dots-signal- > > >> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The = IESG; > > >> dots-chairs@ietf.org > > >> Objet : Re: Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: [Dots] Mirja > > K=C3=BChlewind's > > >> Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and > > COMMENT) > > >> > > >> Hi Med, > > >> > > >> See below. > > >> > > >>> On 3. Jul 2019, at 09:53, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Hi Mirja, > > >>> > > >>> (Focusing on individual issues) > > >>> > > >>> Please see inline. > > >>> > > >>> Cheers, > > >>> Med > > >>> > > >>>> -----Message d'origine----- > > >>>> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] > > >>>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 2 juillet 2019 16:00 > > >>>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN > > >>>> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; = draft-ietf-dots- > > signal- > > >>>> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The > IESG; > > >>>> dots-chairs@ietf.org > > >>>> Objet : Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-dots- > > signal- > > >>>> channel-31: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > >>>> > > >>> ... > > >>>>>>>>> 10) The document should more explicitly provide more > guidance > > >> about > > >>>>>>>>> when a client should start a session and what should be = done > > (from > > >>>> the > > >>>>>>>>> client side) if a session is detected as inactive (other = than > > >> during > > >>>>>>>>> migration which is discussed a bit in 4.7). Is the = assumption to > > >>>> have > > >>>>>>>>> basically permanently an active session or connect for > migration > > >> and > > >>>>>>>>> configuration requests separately at a time? > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> I think there was some clarifying text added, but please = confirm > > if > > >>>> you > > >>>>>> think it > > >>>>>>>> is sufficient. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Sorry, don=E2=80=99t see where text was added. Can you = provide a pointer? > > >>>>> > > >>>>> [Med] We do have this text, for example: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> The DOTS signal channel can be established between two DOTS > agents > > >>>>> prior or during an attack. The DOTS signal channel is = initiated by > > >>>>> the DOTS client. The DOTS client can then negotiate, = configure, and > > >>>>> retrieve the DOTS signal channel session behavior with its = DOTS peer > > >>>>> (Section 4.5). Once the signal channel is established, the = DOTS > > >>>>> agents periodically send heartbeats to keep the channel active > > >>>>> (Section 4.7). At any time, the DOTS client may send a = mitigation > > >>>>> request message (Section 4.4) to a DOTS server over the active > > signal > > >>>>> channel. While mitigation is active (because of the higher > > >>>>> likelihood of packet loss during a DDoS attack), the DOTS = server > > >>>>> periodically sends status messages to the client, including = basic > > >>>>> mitigation feedback details. Mitigation remains active until = the > > >>>>> DOTS client explicitly terminates mitigation, or the = mitigation > > >>>>> lifetime expires. Also, the DOTS server may rely on the = signal > > >>>>> channel session loss to trigger mitigation for pre-configured > > >>>>> mitigation requests (if any). > > >>>> > > >>>> Okay thanks for for the pointer. What I think is missing are = some > > >>>> sentences about what the client (or server) should do if the = keep- > > alive > > >>>> fails. Try to reconnect directly or just with the next request = or > > >>>> whatever. Basically who should reconnect and when? > > >>> > > >>> [Med] This is discussed in details in Section 4.7, in = particular. > > >>> > > >>> As a generic rule, it is always the client who connects (see the > > excerpt > > >> above). > > >>> > > >>> The server may use the failure to initiate automated mitigation = (see > > the > > >> excerpt above). More details are provided in other sections. > > >>> > > >>> There are several heartbeat failure cases to handle by the = client. > > >> Examples from 4.7 are provided below, fwiw: > > >>> > > >>> The DOTS client MUST NOT consider the DOTS signal channel = session > > >>> terminated even after a maximum 'missing-hb-allowed' = threshold is > > >>> reached. The DOTS client SHOULD keep on using the current = DOTS > > >>> signal channel session to send heartbeat requests over it, = so that > > >>> the DOTS server knows the DOTS client has not disconnected = the > > >>> DOTS signal channel session. > > >>> > > >>> After the maximum 'missing-hb-allowed' threshold is reached, = the > > >>> DOTS client SHOULD try to resume the (D)TLS session. The = DOTS > > >>> client SHOULD send mitigation requests over the current DOTS > > >>> signal channel session, and in parallel, for example, try to > > >>> resume the (D)TLS session or use 0-RTT mode in DTLS 1.3 to > > >>> piggyback the mitigation request in the ClientHello message. > > >>> > > >>> As soon as the link is no longer saturated, if traffic from = the > > >>> DOTS server reaches the DOTS client over the current DOTS = signal > > >>> channel session, the DOTS client can stop (D)TLS session > > >>> resumption or if (D)TLS session resumption is successful = then > > >>> disconnect the current DOTS signal channel session. > > >>> > > >>> Do you think additional text is needed? > > >> > > >> Actually to my understanding this will not work. Both TCP = heartbeat and > > >> Coap Ping are transmitted reliably. If you don=E2=80=99t receive = an ack for > > these > > >> transmissions you are not able to send any additional messages = and can > > >> only choose the connection. > > >> > > >> Mirja > > >> > > >> > > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Wed Jul 3 08:30:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietf.org Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9B711206A5; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 08:30:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: dots@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.98.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dots@ietf.org Message-ID: <156216785052.14662.7150272778037876350@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 08:30:50 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-35.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 15:30:55 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IETF. Title : Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy Mohamed Boucadair Prashanth Patil Andrew Mortensen Nik Teague Filename : draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-35.txt Pages : 105 Date : 2019-07-03 Abstract: This document specifies the DOTS signal channel, a protocol for signaling the need for protection against Distributed Denial-of- Service (DDoS) attacks to a server capable of enabling network traffic mitigation on behalf of the requesting client. A companion document defines the DOTS data channel, a separate reliable communication layer for DOTS management and configuration purposes. Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor) Please update these statements within the document with the RFC number to be assigned to this document: o "This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX;" o "RFC XXXX: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification"; o "| [RFCXXXX] |" o reference: RFC XXXX Please update this statement with the RFC number to be assigned to the following documents: o "RFC YYYY: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Data Channel Specification (used to be I-D.ietf-dots-data- channel) Please update TBD/TBD1/TBD2 statements with the assignments made by IANA to DOTS Signal Channel Protocol. Also, please update the "revision" date of the YANG modules. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-35 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-35 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-35 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Jul 3 08:43:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietf.org Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2487D120132; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 08:43:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: dots@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.98.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dots@ietf.org Message-ID: <156216858507.14777.15608893721019421928@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 08:43:05 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-30.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 15:43:05 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IETF. Title : Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Data Channel Specification Authors : Mohamed Boucadair Tirumaleswar Reddy Filename : draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-30.txt Pages : 75 Date : 2019-07-03 Abstract: The document specifies a Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) data channel used for bulk exchange of data that cannot easily or appropriately communicated through the DOTS signal channel under attack conditions. This is a companion document to the DOTS signal channel specification. Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor) Please update these statements within the document with the RFC number to be assigned to this document: o "This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX;" o "RFC XXXX: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Data Channel Specification"; o reference: RFC XXXX Please update the "revision" date of the YANG module. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-data-channel/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-30 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-30 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-30 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Jul 3 09:41:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C081202B4; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:41:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sIAjtL34Ohra; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:41:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3218B1202C5; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:41:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 200116b82468ed00dc125255380fc353.dip.versatel-1u1.de ([2001:16b8:2468:ed00:dc12:5255:380f:c353]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hiiJj-0007Dg-8C; Wed, 03 Jul 2019 18:41:11 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 18:41:10 +0200 Cc: Roman Danyliw , "dots@ietf.org" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-dots-data-channel@ietf.org" , "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , Benjamin Kaduk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <155679628494.24951.9145538661531263463.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA68C8B@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20190701154032.GB13810@kduck.mit.edu> <24FFE7CE-B91A-4CF4-BB85-D6108ACE0043@kuehlewind.net> <642531B0-3E3A-4A5C-BD20-C74AA3698936@kuehlewind.net> To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1562172083;4e340f27; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hiiJj-0007Dg-8C Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-?= =?utf-8?q?dots-data-channel-28=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 16:41:27 -0000 Hi Tiru, hi Med, Please see below. > On 3. Jul 2019, at 10:00, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy = wrote: >=20 > Hi Mirja, >=20 > Please see inline=20 >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mirja Kuehlewind >> Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2019 9:20 PM >> To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >> Cc: Benjamin Kaduk ; Roman Danyliw ; >> dots@ietf.org; The IESG ; dots-chairs@ietf.org; >> mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; draft-ietf-dots-data-channel@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-dots-data- >> channel-28: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>=20 >> This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click = links or >> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content = is >> safe. >>=20 >> Hi Tiru, >>=20 >> Below... >>=20 >>> On 2. Jul 2019, at 16:22, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >> wrote: >>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Mirja Kuehlewind >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2019 7:36 PM >>>> To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >> >>>> Cc: Benjamin Kaduk ; Roman Danyliw ; >>>> dots@ietf.org; The IESG ; dots-chairs@ietf.org; >>>> mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; draft-ietf-dots-data-channel@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on >>>> draft-ietf-dots-data- >>>> channel-28: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Tiru, >>>>=20 >>>> Please see below. >>>>=20 >>>>> On 2. Jul 2019, at 09:55, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >>>> wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> I would also quickly like to discuss the use of keep-alives as >>>>>>>>> described in Section 3.1: "While the communication to the DOTS >>>>>>>>> server is quiescent, the DOTS client MAY probe the server to >>>>>>>>> ensure it has maintained cryptographic state. Such probes = can >>>>>>>>> also keep alive firewall and/or NAT bindings. A TLS = heartbeat >>>>>>>>> [RFC6520] verifies that the DOTS server still has TLS state = by >>>>>>>>> returning >>>> a TLS message." >>>>>>>>> I understood that multiple requests can and should be send in >>>>>>>>> the same connection, however, I would expect that those = requests >>>>>>>>> are send basically right after each other, such as a look-up = and >>>>>>>>> then change of the config. I don't see a need to keep up the >>>>>>>>> connection for a >>>>>> long time otherwise. >>>>>>>>> Especially any action performed are (other than in the signal >>>>>>>>> channel case) not time critical. Therefore I would rather >>>>>>>>> recommend to close and reopen connections and not recommend >> to >>>> use >>>>>>>>> keep-alives at all. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> [Med] The activity of the DOTS client may be used to = track/detect >>>>>>>> stale >>>>>> entries: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Also, DOTS servers >>>>>>>> may track the inactivity timeout of DOTS clients to detect = stale >>>>>>>> entries. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>> My understanding is that this is orthogonal. You can also see = that >>>>>> a client is inactive when it didn=E2=80=99t open a new connection = for a certain >> time=E2=80=A6? >>>>>=20 >>>>> The drop-list rules could be frequently updated by the DOTS client >>>>> based on the tests used by the DOTS client domain (e.g. >>>>> cryptographic >>>>> challenge) to detect whether the IP address is for legitimate use = or >>>>> not, or based on threat intelligence feeds from security vendors >>>>> providing the botnet/malicious IP addresses feed. Further, >>>>> persistent DOTS data channel is required to handle updates to = target >>>>> resources (e.g. CDN hosting a domain, and it needs DDoS = protection) >>>>> and target IP/prefix may also change frequently (mobile branch >>>>> office, prefix re-numbering etc.) >>>>=20 >>>> This still doesn=E2=80=99t sounds like it is desirable to keep the = TCP connection >> open. >>>> Also if you can bear the time to reconnect (1-2 RTT for the >>>> handshake) that is usually the better and easier options. I don=E2=80= =99t >>>> think the information we talk about here are that time-critical, is >>>> it? When you say frequent what time frame do you mean, Hours, = minutes, >> seconds, milliseconds? >>>=20 >>> The frequency of updates to drop-list rules can be few milliseconds. = For >> example, CAPTCHA and cryptographic puzzles can be used by DOTS client >> domain to determine whether the IP address is used for legitimate = purpose >> or not, and can configure the drop-list rules. >>> Further, the specification does not mandate the connection to be >> persistent, but when needed, the probe mechanism applies. >>=20 >> Then it really seems to me that the document would need to provide = further >> guidance when a persistent connection is useful or when it is = recommend to >> close the connection (and reopen if needed). >=20 > Sure, will add the following text: >=20 > A DOTS client can either maintain a persistent connection or = periodic > connections with its DOTS server(s). If the DOTS client needs to > frequently update the drop-list or accept-list filtering rules or > aliases, it maintains a persistent connection with the DOTS server. > For example, CAPTCHA and cryptographic puzzles can be used by the > mitigation service in the DOTS client domain to determine whether = the > IP address is used for legitimate purpose or not, and the DOTS = client > can frequently update the drop-list filtering rules. A persistent > connection is also useful if the DOTS client subscribes to event > notifications (Section 6.3 of [RFC8040]). >=20 > - Tiru and Med Thanks! Two more small comments: At least to me the term =E2=80=9Cperiodic" is not clear. I guess mean = something like short-lived connections, where you have a request, you = open a connection, send it, get a reply, and close the connection = immediately or after a short idle period. Or is there actually any kind = of periodicity in the dots protocol in general? Can you pleas clarify. Also if a persistent connection is used, I think it would (again) be = good to clarify what should be done if the connection fails. I think the = right advise in this case, is to not reconnect immediately but only if = you have another request to send, right? Mirja >=20 >>=20 >> Mirja >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> -Tiru >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Mirja >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Further, we are not mandating the connection to be persistent, but >>>>> when >>>> needed, the probe mechanism applies. Please note >>>> = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server- >>>> 13 discusses persistent-connection and it=E2=80=99s a client = preference on >>>> how the connection is maintained (persistent or periodic). >>>=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Jul 3 09:49:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6F0A1202B7; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:49:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VCuVGVE9Wxyc; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 407331202B0; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 200116b82468ed00dc125255380fc353.dip.versatel-1u1.de ([2001:16b8:2468:ed00:dc12:5255:380f:c353]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hiiRo-0008Uc-OX; Wed, 03 Jul 2019 18:49:32 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2F77@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 18:49:32 +0200 Cc: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" , "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "dots@ietf.org" , "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , Benjamin Kaduk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2ABA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2CC5@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2F77@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1562172579;6e002538; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hiiRo-0008Uc-OX Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Behavior_when_keep-alives_fail_=28RE=3A___Mirja?= =?utf-8?q?_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-3?= =?utf-8?q?1=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 16:49:43 -0000 Hi Med, See below. > On 3. Jul 2019, at 15:46, = wrote: >=20 > Re-, >=20 > Please see inline.=20 >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] >> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 3 juillet 2019 14:46 >> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN >> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; = draft-ietf-dots-signal- >> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The IESG; >> dots-chairs@ietf.org >> Objet : Re: Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: [Dots] Mirja = K=C3=BChlewind's >> Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and = COMMENT) >>=20 >> Hi Med, >>=20 >> See below. >>=20 >>> On 3. Jul 2019, at 12:48, >> wrote: >>>=20 >>> Mirja, >>>=20 >>>> Actually to my understanding this will not work. Both TCP heartbeat = and >>>> Coap Ping are transmitted reliably. If you don=E2=80=99t receive an = ack for >> these >>>> transmissions you are not able to send any additional messages and = can >>>> only choose the connection. >>>=20 >>> This behavior is implemented and tested between two implementations. = The >> exact procedure is described in the draft, fwiw: >>>=20 >>> =3D=3D >>> When a Confirmable "CoAP Ping" is sent, and if there is no = response, >>> the "CoAP Ping" is retransmitted max-retransmit number of times by >>> the CoAP layer using an initial timeout set to a random duration >>> between ack-timeout and (ack-timeout*ack-random-factor) and >>> exponential back-off between retransmissions. By choosing the >>> recommended transmission parameters, the "CoAP Ping" will timeout >>> after 45 seconds. If the DOTS agent does not receive any response >>> from the peer DOTS agent for 'missing-hb-allowed' number of >>> consecutive "CoAP Ping" Confirmable messages, it concludes that the >>> DOTS signal channel session is disconnected. A DOTS client MUST = NOT >>> transmit a "CoAP Ping" while waiting for the previous "CoAP Ping" >>> response from the same DOTS server. >>> =3D=3D >>=20 >> First, can you explain why you need 'missing-hb-allowed=E2=80=99? >=20 > [Med] because we need to make sure this a "real/durable" session = defunct, not a false positive. For example, this would have implications = on the server as it may erroneously start automated mitigations (because = it concludes the session is lost). If the reliable ping fails, this means already that there where X number = of reties which exponential backoff. This really should be an indication = of a real failure! >=20 > If the ping is >> transmitted reliably, one =E2=80=9Cmissed=E2=80=9D should be enough = to conclude that the >> session is disconnected. >=20 > [Med] Hmm, under some DDoS attacks, both endpoints may be = sending/replying to confirmable ping messages, but the reply may get = dropped. The session is not disconnected in such case. For confirmable massage an ack is send. If the ack is dropped, the = message will be retransmitted several times (with exponential backoff).=20= >=20 >>=20 >> Yes, as Coap Ping is used, the agent should not only conclude that = the >> DOTS signal session is disconnected but also the Coap session and not = send >> any further Coap messages anymore. >>=20 >> If you want to send further UDP datagram you should it unreliability = and >> not more often then one per 3 seconds. >>=20 >> Mirja >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Cheers, >>> Med >>>=20 >>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] >>>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 3 juillet 2019 12:26 >>>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN >>>> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; = draft-ietf-dots-signal- >>>> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The = IESG; >>>> dots-chairs@ietf.org >>>> Objet : Re: Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: [Dots] Mirja >> K=C3=BChlewind's >>>> Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and >> COMMENT) >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Med, >>>>=20 >>>> See below. >>>>=20 >>>>> On 3. Jul 2019, at 09:53, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hi Mirja, >>>>>=20 >>>>> (Focusing on individual issues) >>>>>=20 >>>>> Please see inline. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Med >>>>>=20 >>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] >>>>>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 2 juillet 2019 16:00 >>>>>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN >>>>>> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; draft-ietf-dots- >> signal- >>>>>> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The = IESG; >>>>>> dots-chairs@ietf.org >>>>>> Objet : Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-dots- >> signal- >>>>>> channel-31: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>>>>>=20 >>>>> ... >>>>>>>>>>> 10) The document should more explicitly provide more = guidance >>>> about >>>>>>>>>>> when a client should start a session and what should be done >> (from >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> client side) if a session is detected as inactive (other = than >>>> during >>>>>>>>>>> migration which is discussed a bit in 4.7). Is the = assumption to >>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> basically permanently an active session or connect for = migration >>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> configuration requests separately at a time? >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> I think there was some clarifying text added, but please = confirm >> if >>>>>> you >>>>>>>> think it >>>>>>>>>> is sufficient. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Sorry, don=E2=80=99t see where text was added. Can you provide = a pointer? >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> [Med] We do have this text, for example: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> The DOTS signal channel can be established between two DOTS = agents >>>>>>> prior or during an attack. The DOTS signal channel is initiated = by >>>>>>> the DOTS client. The DOTS client can then negotiate, configure, = and >>>>>>> retrieve the DOTS signal channel session behavior with its DOTS = peer >>>>>>> (Section 4.5). Once the signal channel is established, the DOTS >>>>>>> agents periodically send heartbeats to keep the channel active >>>>>>> (Section 4.7). At any time, the DOTS client may send a = mitigation >>>>>>> request message (Section 4.4) to a DOTS server over the active >> signal >>>>>>> channel. While mitigation is active (because of the higher >>>>>>> likelihood of packet loss during a DDoS attack), the DOTS server >>>>>>> periodically sends status messages to the client, including = basic >>>>>>> mitigation feedback details. Mitigation remains active until = the >>>>>>> DOTS client explicitly terminates mitigation, or the mitigation >>>>>>> lifetime expires. Also, the DOTS server may rely on the signal >>>>>>> channel session loss to trigger mitigation for pre-configured >>>>>>> mitigation requests (if any). >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Okay thanks for for the pointer. What I think is missing are some >>>>>> sentences about what the client (or server) should do if the = keep- >> alive >>>>>> fails. Try to reconnect directly or just with the next request or >>>>>> whatever. Basically who should reconnect and when? >>>>>=20 >>>>> [Med] This is discussed in details in Section 4.7, in particular. >>>>>=20 >>>>> As a generic rule, it is always the client who connects (see the >> excerpt >>>> above). >>>>>=20 >>>>> The server may use the failure to initiate automated mitigation = (see >> the >>>> excerpt above). More details are provided in other sections. >>>>>=20 >>>>> There are several heartbeat failure cases to handle by the client. >>>> Examples from 4.7 are provided below, fwiw: >>>>>=20 >>>>> The DOTS client MUST NOT consider the DOTS signal channel = session >>>>> terminated even after a maximum 'missing-hb-allowed' threshold = is >>>>> reached. The DOTS client SHOULD keep on using the current DOTS >>>>> signal channel session to send heartbeat requests over it, so = that >>>>> the DOTS server knows the DOTS client has not disconnected the >>>>> DOTS signal channel session. >>>>>=20 >>>>> After the maximum 'missing-hb-allowed' threshold is reached, = the >>>>> DOTS client SHOULD try to resume the (D)TLS session. The DOTS >>>>> client SHOULD send mitigation requests over the current DOTS >>>>> signal channel session, and in parallel, for example, try to >>>>> resume the (D)TLS session or use 0-RTT mode in DTLS 1.3 to >>>>> piggyback the mitigation request in the ClientHello message. >>>>>=20 >>>>> As soon as the link is no longer saturated, if traffic from the >>>>> DOTS server reaches the DOTS client over the current DOTS = signal >>>>> channel session, the DOTS client can stop (D)TLS session >>>>> resumption or if (D)TLS session resumption is successful then >>>>> disconnect the current DOTS signal channel session. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Do you think additional text is needed? >>>>=20 >>>> Actually to my understanding this will not work. Both TCP heartbeat = and >>>> Coap Ping are transmitted reliably. If you don=E2=80=99t receive an = ack for >> these >>>> transmissions you are not able to send any additional messages and = can >>>> only choose the connection. >>>>=20 >>>> Mirja >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Jul 3 10:12:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E19A21203FB; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:12:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id twwqJk4x3wgx; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 985341203A7; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 200116b82468ed00dc125255380fc353.dip.versatel-1u1.de ([2001:16b8:2468:ed00:dc12:5255:380f:c353]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hiinl-0006oJ-Nd; Wed, 03 Jul 2019 19:12:13 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <06e901d531a8$38f38d90$aadaa8b0$@jpshallow.com> Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 19:12:13 +0200 Cc: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org, "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , dots@ietf.org, frank.xialiang@huawei.com, The IESG , dots-chairs@ietf.org, Benjamin Kaduk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2B716406-0554-4DC6-B6F9-057A9D4D85C4@kuehlewind.net> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2ABA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2CC5@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2F77@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <06e901d531a8$38f38d90$aadaa8b0$@jpshallow.com> To: Jon Shallow X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1562173938;ff985c2d; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hiinl-0006oJ-Nd Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Behavior_when_keep-alives_fail_=28RE=3A___Mirja?= =?utf-8?q?_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-3?= =?utf-8?q?1=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 17:12:23 -0000 Hi Jon, Thanks for extended explanation. Please see questions inline.c > On 3. Jul 2019, at 16:04, Jon Shallow = wrote: >=20 > Hi Mirja, >=20 > As an implementer of DOTS I have the following comments to make to try = and help understand what is going on with the Heartbeats >=20 > In the peace time scenario, it is assumed that the heartbeats function = through the network in both directions and that it is possible to = disable one or both of the heartbeat directions. >=20 > Heartbeats can use UDP or TCP depending on the session set up based on = the initial connection (UDP is preferred over TCP). With UDP, there is = a CoAP Ping (Empty request CON 0.00) and a CoAP RST response. With TCP, = there is a Coap Ping (7.02) and a Coap Pong (7.03) response. > For UDP, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252#section-4.8.2 defines the = ACK_TIMEOUT, ACK_RANDOM_FACTOR, and MAX_RETRANSMIT which map onto the = DOTS heartbeat parameters ack-timeout, ack-random-factor and = max-retransmit. These 3 parameters determine the elapsed time when = there has been transmission failure. There is an additional DOTS = parameter missing-hb-allowed to support more than one heartbeat loss = should it be needed before determining that a DOTS agent has really gone = away (instead of, say, going through a reboot or a restart cycle). Why do you need this additional parameter? Why is max-retransmit not = enough? Isn=E2=80=99t the results the same, you send more ping frames = before you finally give up? >=20 > When handling an attack scenario, there is a good chance that the = inbound (DOTS server to DOTS client) data path is flooded /overloaded = and hence packet loss (but not the case with all DDoS type scenarios). >=20 > A significant purpose of the DOTS client generating a heartbeat is to = make sure that any NAT devices in the path maintain their NAT = associations and allow any returning responses (which could be = unsolicited if the observe of a mitigation is active). >=20 > Even in the attack scenario, the DOTS server will see these heartbeat = messages, but can only deduce that the connection from the DOTS client = to the DOTS server is good - but cannot make any assumptions about = traffic flowing in the other direction. However, if the client does never receive a Coap RST or Coap pong, it = will sooner or later give up and not send any ping messages anymore. In = this case the server will receive no ping anymore and can decide to send = own pings. Important is the idle time out is known to both ends. Further if your really want to be sure if the RST was received or not, = I=E2=80=99d recommend you to use an own application ping that indicated = if the ping is a retransmission or not.=20 Detection one-way congestion is a different function than keep-alive = testing and it is better to use an explicit mechanism for that then = trying to infer something from a mechanism that was designed for a = different purpose. >=20 > However, the DOTS client may not get a ping response due to the = flooded inbound pipe. If the DOTS client has initiated a mitigation = request, then it is unsafe for the DOTS client to close down the session = - it will need to refresh the mitigation requests / create new ones even = if the mitigation is not being that effective as traffic can still flow = to the server. It is possible that the DOTS server has just restarted - = hence the requirement to try and open up a new session in parallel. >=20 > If the DOTS server also initiates heartbeat messages, sees the DOTS = client pings, but does not see any response to the DOTS server ping, the = DOTS server can now deduce that the outbound pipe is good, but the = inbound pipe to the DOTS client is failing. The DOTS server then does = not need to close down the session as it will be expecting additional = mitigation requests from the DOTS client - even though the DOTS server = Coap Ping is failing. >=20 > Furthermore, if the DOTS server initiates its CoAP ping on receipt of = the DOTS client Coap Ping, then there is a good chance that the NAT = sessions are "warm" on any intervening NAT devices. If the DOTS server = initiates the Coap Ping on its own cycle, there is a chance that it may = not get through and confuse the logic. This also sounds to me that you should rather design your own testing = during mitigation in the dots layer, e.g. don=E2=80=99t use the Coap = Ping, but send a non-confirmable Coap message which contains a dots = layer =E2=80=9Cping" and an indication if a dots-layer =E2=80=9Cpong" = has been received or not. However, note that this still might not work with TCP as messages cannot = be transmitted unreliably and not-transmitted/no-acked application layer = data will block all other traffic on the same connection at some point = because TCP will try to retransmit and shrink the congestion window to = the minimum. Mirja >=20 > Regards >=20 > Jon >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = supjps-mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >> Sent: 03 July 2019 14:46 >> To: Mirja Kuehlewind >> Cc: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; Konda, Tirumaleswar = Reddy; >> dots@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; The IESG; = dots-chairs@ietf.org; >> Benjamin Kaduk >> Subject: Re: [Dots] Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: Mirja = K=C3=BChlewind's >> Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and = COMMENT) >>=20 >> Re-, >>=20 >> Please see inline. >>=20 >> Cheers, >> Med >>=20 >>> -----Message d'origine----- >>> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] >>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 3 juillet 2019 14:46 >>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN >>> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; = draft-ietf-dots-signal- >>> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The = IESG; >>> dots-chairs@ietf.org >>> Objet : Re: Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: [Dots] Mirja = K=C3=BChlewind's >>> Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and >> COMMENT) >>>=20 >>> Hi Med, >>>=20 >>> See below. >>>=20 >>>> On 3. Jul 2019, at 12:48, >>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Mirja, >>>>=20 >>>>> Actually to my understanding this will not work. Both TCP = heartbeat and >>>>> Coap Ping are transmitted reliably. If you don=E2=80=99t receive = an ack for >>> these >>>>> transmissions you are not able to send any additional messages and = can >>>>> only choose the connection. >>>>=20 >>>> This behavior is implemented and tested between two = implementations. >> The >>> exact procedure is described in the draft, fwiw: >>>>=20 >>>> =3D=3D >>>> When a Confirmable "CoAP Ping" is sent, and if there is no = response, >>>> the "CoAP Ping" is retransmitted max-retransmit number of times by >>>> the CoAP layer using an initial timeout set to a random duration >>>> between ack-timeout and (ack-timeout*ack-random-factor) and >>>> exponential back-off between retransmissions. By choosing the >>>> recommended transmission parameters, the "CoAP Ping" will timeout >>>> after 45 seconds. If the DOTS agent does not receive any response >>>> from the peer DOTS agent for 'missing-hb-allowed' number of >>>> consecutive "CoAP Ping" Confirmable messages, it concludes that = the >>>> DOTS signal channel session is disconnected. A DOTS client MUST = NOT >>>> transmit a "CoAP Ping" while waiting for the previous "CoAP Ping" >>>> response from the same DOTS server. >>>> =3D=3D >>>=20 >>> First, can you explain why you need 'missing-hb-allowed=E2=80=99? >>=20 >> [Med] because we need to make sure this a "real/durable" session = defunct, >> not a false positive. For example, this would have implications on = the server >> as it may erroneously start automated mitigations (because it = concludes the >> session is lost). >>=20 >> If the ping is >>> transmitted reliably, one =E2=80=9Cmissed=E2=80=9D should be enough = to conclude that the >>> session is disconnected. >>=20 >> [Med] Hmm, under some DDoS attacks, both endpoints may be >> sending/replying to confirmable ping messages, but the reply may get >> dropped. The session is not disconnected in such case. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Yes, as Coap Ping is used, the agent should not only conclude that = the >>> DOTS signal session is disconnected but also the Coap session and = not send >>> any further Coap messages anymore. >>>=20 >>> If you want to send further UDP datagram you should it unreliability = and >>> not more often then one per 3 seconds. >>>=20 >>> Mirja >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Cheers, >>>> Med >>>>=20 >>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] >>>>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 3 juillet 2019 12:26 >>>>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN >>>>> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; = draft-ietf-dots-signal- >>>>> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The = IESG; >>>>> dots-chairs@ietf.org >>>>> Objet : Re: Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: [Dots] Mirja >>> K=C3=BChlewind's >>>>> Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and >>> COMMENT) >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hi Med, >>>>>=20 >>>>> See below. >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 3. Jul 2019, at 09:53, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Hi Mirja, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> (Focusing on individual issues) >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Please see inline. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Med >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] >>>>>>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 2 juillet 2019 16:00 >>>>>>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN >>>>>>> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; draft-ietf-dots- >>> signal- >>>>>>> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The >> IESG; >>>>>>> dots-chairs@ietf.org >>>>>>> Objet : Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-dots- >>> signal- >>>>>>> channel-31: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>>>>> 10) The document should more explicitly provide more >> guidance >>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>> when a client should start a session and what should be = done >>> (from >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> client side) if a session is detected as inactive (other = than >>>>> during >>>>>>>>>>>> migration which is discussed a bit in 4.7). Is the = assumption to >>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>> basically permanently an active session or connect for >> migration >>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> configuration requests separately at a time? >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> I think there was some clarifying text added, but please = confirm >>> if >>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> think it >>>>>>>>>>> is sufficient. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Sorry, don=E2=80=99t see where text was added. Can you provide = a pointer? >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> [Med] We do have this text, for example: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> The DOTS signal channel can be established between two DOTS >> agents >>>>>>>> prior or during an attack. The DOTS signal channel is = initiated by >>>>>>>> the DOTS client. The DOTS client can then negotiate, = configure, and >>>>>>>> retrieve the DOTS signal channel session behavior with its DOTS = peer >>>>>>>> (Section 4.5). Once the signal channel is established, the = DOTS >>>>>>>> agents periodically send heartbeats to keep the channel active >>>>>>>> (Section 4.7). At any time, the DOTS client may send a = mitigation >>>>>>>> request message (Section 4.4) to a DOTS server over the active >>> signal >>>>>>>> channel. While mitigation is active (because of the higher >>>>>>>> likelihood of packet loss during a DDoS attack), the DOTS = server >>>>>>>> periodically sends status messages to the client, including = basic >>>>>>>> mitigation feedback details. Mitigation remains active until = the >>>>>>>> DOTS client explicitly terminates mitigation, or the mitigation >>>>>>>> lifetime expires. Also, the DOTS server may rely on the signal >>>>>>>> channel session loss to trigger mitigation for pre-configured >>>>>>>> mitigation requests (if any). >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Okay thanks for for the pointer. What I think is missing are = some >>>>>>> sentences about what the client (or server) should do if the = keep- >>> alive >>>>>>> fails. Try to reconnect directly or just with the next request = or >>>>>>> whatever. Basically who should reconnect and when? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> [Med] This is discussed in details in Section 4.7, in particular. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> As a generic rule, it is always the client who connects (see the >>> excerpt >>>>> above). >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> The server may use the failure to initiate automated mitigation = (see >>> the >>>>> excerpt above). More details are provided in other sections. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> There are several heartbeat failure cases to handle by the = client. >>>>> Examples from 4.7 are provided below, fwiw: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> The DOTS client MUST NOT consider the DOTS signal channel = session >>>>>> terminated even after a maximum 'missing-hb-allowed' threshold = is >>>>>> reached. The DOTS client SHOULD keep on using the current = DOTS >>>>>> signal channel session to send heartbeat requests over it, so = that >>>>>> the DOTS server knows the DOTS client has not disconnected the >>>>>> DOTS signal channel session. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> After the maximum 'missing-hb-allowed' threshold is reached, = the >>>>>> DOTS client SHOULD try to resume the (D)TLS session. The DOTS >>>>>> client SHOULD send mitigation requests over the current DOTS >>>>>> signal channel session, and in parallel, for example, try to >>>>>> resume the (D)TLS session or use 0-RTT mode in DTLS 1.3 to >>>>>> piggyback the mitigation request in the ClientHello message. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> As soon as the link is no longer saturated, if traffic from = the >>>>>> DOTS server reaches the DOTS client over the current DOTS = signal >>>>>> channel session, the DOTS client can stop (D)TLS session >>>>>> resumption or if (D)TLS session resumption is successful then >>>>>> disconnect the current DOTS signal channel session. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Do you think additional text is needed? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Actually to my understanding this will not work. Both TCP = heartbeat and >>>>> Coap Ping are transmitted reliably. If you don=E2=80=99t receive = an ack for >>> these >>>>> transmissions you are not able to send any additional messages and = can >>>>> only choose the connection. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Mirja >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Dots mailing list >> Dots@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Jul 3 10:51:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF80912038E; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:51:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3GrG2b20PX4X; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF099120314; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar01.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.2]) by opfedar21.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45f7vk1Tn1z7vXy; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 19:51:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.95]) by opfedar01.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45f7vj6q8dzBrLj; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 19:51:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM24.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::b43f:9973:861e:42af%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 19:51:29 +0200 From: To: Mirja Kuehlewind , "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" CC: Roman Danyliw , "dots@ietf.org" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-dots-data-channel@ietf.org" , Benjamin Kaduk Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W0RvdHNdICBNaXJqYSBLw7xobGV3aW5kJ3MgRGlzY3VzcyBvbiBkcmFmdC1p?= =?utf-8?B?ZXRmLWRvdHMtZGF0YS1jaGFubmVsLTI4OiAod2l0aCBESVNDVVNTIGFuZCBD?= =?utf-8?Q?OMMENT)?= Thread-Index: AQHVMb4lwlz7ytnW2UOSIPGasaLv/Ka5Iflw Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 17:51:29 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB345F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <155679628494.24951.9145538661531263463.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA68C8B@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20190701154032.GB13810@kduck.mit.edu> <24FFE7CE-B91A-4CF4-BB85-D6108ACE0043@kuehlewind.net> <642531B0-3E3A-4A5C-BD20-C74AA3698936@kuehlewind.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-?= =?utf-8?q?dots-data-channel-28=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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nobody Wed Jul 3 11:05:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A271112039C; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 11:05:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N6I72PI9GtmL; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 11:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3921C12038E; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 11:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr06.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.70]) by opfednr23.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45f8CW48c6z5wdt; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 20:05:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.107]) by opfednr06.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45f8CW3LbCzDq7C; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 20:05:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM8F.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 20:05:11 +0200 From: To: Mirja Kuehlewind CC: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" , "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "dots@ietf.org" , "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "Benjamin Kaduk" Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?QmVoYXZpb3Igd2hlbiBrZWVwLWFsaXZlcyBmYWlsIChSRTogW0RvdHNdICBN?= =?utf-8?B?aXJqYSBLw7xobGV3aW5kJ3MgRGlzY3VzcyBvbiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWRvdHMt?= =?utf-8?Q?signal-channel-31:_(with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT)?= Thread-Index: AQHVMb9Ng3672ImM8Uie5akD8zLFOaa5LZPw Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 18:05:10 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB349B@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2ABA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2CC5@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2F77@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Behavior_when_keep-alives_fail_=28RE=3A___Mirja?= =?utf-8?q?_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-3?= =?utf-8?q?1=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org 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aW5nIGxpbmssIGFuZCB3aGljaCB3aWxsIGxlYWQgdG8gaGlnaCBwYWNrZXQgbG9zcy4NCg0KVGhp cyBpcyB3aHkgbXVsdGlwbGUgaGVhcnRiZWF0IGxvc3NlcyBhcmUgcmVxdWlyZWQgdG8gZGV0ZWN0 IHRoZSBzZXNzaW9uIGlzIGRlZnVuY3QuDQoNClBsZWFzZSBub3RlIHRoYXQgJ21pc3NpbmctaGIt YWxsb3dlZCcgaXMgY29uZmlndXJhYmxlIHBhcmFtZXRlciB0aGF0IGNhbiBiZSBuZWdvdGlhdGVk IHdpdGggdGhlIHNlcnZlci4gQWxzbywgdGhlIEhCIHByb2NlZHVyZSBjYW4gZXZlbiBiZSBkZWFj dGl2YXRlZCBkdXJpbmcgaWRsZSB0aW1lLg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Wed Jul 3 12:16:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D425B12016E; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 12:16:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kIaU_dqfr-Xb; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 12:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.jpshallow.com (mail.jpshallow.com [217.40.240.153]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B78BE1200F3; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 12:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=N01332) by mail.jpshallow.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hikjU-0007aG-Ty; Wed, 03 Jul 2019 20:15:58 +0100 From: "Jon Shallow" To: , "'Mirja Kuehlewind'" , , "'Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy'" , , , "'The IESG'" , , "'Benjamin Kaduk'" References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2ABA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2CC5@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2F77@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <06e901d531a8$38f38d90$aadaa8b0$@jpshallow.com> <2B716406-0554-4DC6-B6F9-057A9D4D85C4@kuehlewind.net> In-Reply-To: <2B716406-0554-4DC6-B6F9-057A9D4D85C4@kuehlewind.net> Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 20:15:53 +0100 Message-ID: <072901d531d3$bdd39c00$397ad400$@jpshallow.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQHD6CHHXptH0G8Exk79rrRA9rtJXgH6mckIAd1vi7sB26j+qgH8ZsBTAZsVOd0CekdAo6Z9m2Ow Content-Language: en-gb Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Behavior_when_keep-alives_fail_=28RE=3A___Mirja?= =?utf-8?q?_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-3?= =?utf-8?q?1=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 19:16:09 -0000 Hi Mirja, In one sense Med has answered your queries below separately, but I will = try to expand on them from my implementation perspective. Regards Jon > -----Original Message----- > From: Dots [mailto: dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mirja > Kuehlewind > Sent: 03 July 2019 18:12 > To: Jon Shallow > Cc: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; Konda, Tirumaleswar = Reddy; > dots@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; The IESG; = dots-chairs@ietf.org; > mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; Benjamin Kaduk > Subject: Re: [Dots] Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: Mirja = K=C3=BChlewind's > Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and = COMMENT) >=20 > Hi Jon, >=20 > Thanks for extended explanation. Please see questions inline.c >=20 > > On 3. Jul 2019, at 16:04, Jon Shallow = wrote: > > > > Hi Mirja, > > > > As an implementer of DOTS I have the following comments to make to = try > and help understand what is going on with the Heartbeats > > > > In the peace time scenario, it is assumed that the heartbeats = function > through the network in both directions and that it is possible to = disable one > or both of the heartbeat directions. > > > > Heartbeats can use UDP or TCP depending on the session set up based = on > the initial connection (UDP is preferred over TCP). With UDP, there = is a CoAP > Ping (Empty request CON 0.00) and a CoAP RST response. With TCP, = there is > a Coap Ping (7.02) and a Coap Pong (7.03) response. > > For UDP, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252#section-4.8.2 defines = the > ACK_TIMEOUT, ACK_RANDOM_FACTOR, and MAX_RETRANSMIT which map > onto the DOTS heartbeat parameters ack-timeout, ack-random-factor and > max-retransmit. These 3 parameters determine the elapsed time when > there has been transmission failure. There is an additional DOTS = parameter > missing-hb-allowed to support more than one heartbeat loss should it = be > needed before determining that a DOTS agent has really gone away = (instead > of, say, going through a reboot or a restart cycle). >=20 > Why do you need this additional parameter? Why is max-retransmit not > enough? Isn=E2=80=99t the results the same, you send more ping frames = before you > finally give up? Well no - we are running in a failing network environment due to the = DDoS attacks and need to be as robust as possible before finally giving = up. In RFC7252 ACK_TIMEOUT, ACK_RANDOM_FACTOR, and MAX_RETRANSMIT have the = suggested values of 2, 1.5 and 4 respectively. Following = https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252#section-4.8.2, the time between the = first and last retransmit with these values is 45 seconds - which means = that the request times out after 93 seconds (MAX_TRANSMIT_WAIT) at the = point when the MAX_RETRANSMIT+1 is retried. This final time of 48 seconds (93sec - 45sec) is bigger than a NAT = refresh timeout that we are comfortable with, so the recommended DOTS = value for max-retransmit is 3. We have added in this additional = missing-hb-allowed to increase the timeout before failure is determined. However, as mentioned below, this determined failure may not be = sufficient to cause a session to be closed down as there could be = network losses due to the DDoS attacks. >=20 > > > > When handling an attack scenario, there is a good chance that the = inbound > (DOTS server to DOTS client) data path is flooded /overloaded and = hence > packet loss (but not the case with all DDoS type scenarios). > > > > A significant purpose of the DOTS client generating a heartbeat is = to make > sure that any NAT devices in the path maintain their NAT associations = and > allow any returning responses (which could be unsolicited if the = observe of a > mitigation is active). > > > > Even in the attack scenario, the DOTS server will see these = heartbeat > messages, but can only deduce that the connection from the DOTS client = to > the DOTS server is good - but cannot make any assumptions about = traffic > flowing in the other direction. >=20 > However, if the client does never receive a Coap RST or Coap pong, it = will > sooner or later give up and not send any ping messages anymore. In = this case > the server will receive no ping anymore and can decide to send own = pings. > Important is the idle time out is known to both ends. Agreed, but as mentioned below the DOTS client must continue to transmit = if there has been a mitigation request (i.e. running in under attack = mode and networks could be flaky). The retransmission parameters are negotiated between the DOTS agents at = client session startup ( = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-34#section-4.5= .2 ) so both ends know what the timeouts are. >=20 > Further if your really want to be sure if the RST was received or not, = I=E2=80=99d > recommend you to use an own application ping that indicated if the = ping is a > retransmission or not. Well actually, while the CoAP layer handles the transmission of the = Empty/RST, the ping is initiated by the DOTS layer (and is told either a = RST or timeout occurred), not the CoAP layer and so the DOTS application = is in control of what is going on here. The Ping is not handled in the same as, say, TCP keep-alive packets = which are handled completely by the TCP layer. >=20 > Detection one-way congestion is a different function than keep-alive = testing > and it is better to use an explicit mechanism for that then trying to = infer > something from a mechanism that was designed for a different purpose. >=20 Agreed, but the DOTS layer is triggering the CoAP ping to do this work = for the one-way congestion testing. > > > > However, the DOTS client may not get a ping response due to the = flooded > inbound pipe. If the DOTS client has initiated a mitigation request, = then it is > unsafe for the DOTS client to close down the session - it will need to = refresh > the mitigation requests / create new ones even if the mitigation is = not being > that effective as traffic can still flow to the server. It is = possible that the > DOTS server has just restarted - hence the requirement to try and open = up a > new session in parallel. > > > > If the DOTS server also initiates heartbeat messages, sees the DOTS = client > pings, but does not see any response to the DOTS server ping, the DOTS > server can now deduce that the outbound pipe is good, but the inbound > pipe to the DOTS client is failing. The DOTS server then does not = need to > close down the session as it will be expecting additional mitigation = requests > from the DOTS client - even though the DOTS server Coap Ping is = failing. > > > > Furthermore, if the DOTS server initiates its CoAP ping on receipt = of the > DOTS client Coap Ping, then there is a good chance that the NAT = sessions are > "warm" on any intervening NAT devices. If the DOTS server initiates = the > Coap Ping on its own cycle, there is a chance that it may not get = through and > confuse the logic. >=20 > This also sounds to me that you should rather design your own testing > during mitigation in the dots layer, e.g. don=E2=80=99t use the Coap = Ping, but send a > non-confirmable Coap message which contains a dots layer = =E2=80=9Cping" and an > indication if a dots-layer =E2=80=9Cpong" has been received or not. As stated above, the CoAP ping is not initiated by the CoAP layer like = TCP keep-alives, but is triggered by the DOTS application by sending the = Coap Ping packet - which in effect is what you are suggesting (apart = from the non-confirmable aspect). If using TCP, then what you describe = is correct (except Confirmable/Non-Confirmable are out of the picture). The CoAP Empty packet must be confirmable to solicit a RST response = (Table 1: RFC7252). I would rather not move away from RFC7252 here. >=20 > However, note that this still might not work with TCP as messages = cannot be > transmitted unreliably and not-transmitted/no-acked application layer = data > will block all other traffic on the same connection at some point = because TCP > will try to retransmit and shrink the congestion window to the = minimum. TCP CoAP Ping/Pong does work as we are initiating it from the DOTS = layer. ~Jon >=20 > Mirja >=20 >=20 > > > > Regards > > > > Jon > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of supjps- > mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > >> Sent: 03 July 2019 14:46 > >> To: Mirja Kuehlewind > >> Cc: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; Konda, Tirumaleswar = Reddy; > >> dots@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; The IESG; dots- > chairs@ietf.org; > >> Benjamin Kaduk > >> Subject: Re: [Dots] Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: Mirja = K=C3=BChlewind's > >> Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and > COMMENT) > >> > >> Re-, > >> > >> Please see inline. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Med > >> > >>> -----Message d'origine----- > >>> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] > >>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 3 juillet 2019 14:46 > >>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN > >>> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; = draft-ietf-dots-signal- > >>> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The = IESG; > >>> dots-chairs@ietf.org > >>> Objet : Re: Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: [Dots] Mirja = K=C3=BChlewind's > >>> Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and > >> COMMENT) > >>> > >>> Hi Med, > >>> > >>> See below. > >>> > >>>> On 3. Jul 2019, at 12:48, > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Mirja, > >>>> > >>>>> Actually to my understanding this will not work. Both TCP = heartbeat > and > >>>>> Coap Ping are transmitted reliably. If you don=E2=80=99t receive = an ack for > >>> these > >>>>> transmissions you are not able to send any additional messages = and > can > >>>>> only choose the connection. > >>>> > >>>> This behavior is implemented and tested between two > implementations. > >> The > >>> exact procedure is described in the draft, fwiw: > >>>> > >>>> =3D=3D > >>>> When a Confirmable "CoAP Ping" is sent, and if there is no = response, > >>>> the "CoAP Ping" is retransmitted max-retransmit number of times = by > >>>> the CoAP layer using an initial timeout set to a random duration > >>>> between ack-timeout and (ack-timeout*ack-random-factor) and > >>>> exponential back-off between retransmissions. By choosing the > >>>> recommended transmission parameters, the "CoAP Ping" will = timeout > >>>> after 45 seconds. If the DOTS agent does not receive any = response > >>>> from the peer DOTS agent for 'missing-hb-allowed' number of > >>>> consecutive "CoAP Ping" Confirmable messages, it concludes that = the > >>>> DOTS signal channel session is disconnected. A DOTS client MUST = NOT > >>>> transmit a "CoAP Ping" while waiting for the previous "CoAP = Ping" > >>>> response from the same DOTS server. > >>>> =3D=3D > >>> > >>> First, can you explain why you need 'missing-hb-allowed=E2=80=99? > >> > >> [Med] because we need to make sure this a "real/durable" session > defunct, > >> not a false positive. For example, this would have implications on = the > server > >> as it may erroneously start automated mitigations (because it = concludes > the > >> session is lost). > >> > >> If the ping is > >>> transmitted reliably, one =E2=80=9Cmissed=E2=80=9D should be = enough to conclude that > the > >>> session is disconnected. > >> > >> [Med] Hmm, under some DDoS attacks, both endpoints may be > >> sending/replying to confirmable ping messages, but the reply may = get > >> dropped. The session is not disconnected in such case. > >> > >>> > >>> Yes, as Coap Ping is used, the agent should not only conclude that = the > >>> DOTS signal session is disconnected but also the Coap session and = not > send > >>> any further Coap messages anymore. > >>> > >>> If you want to send further UDP datagram you should it = unreliability and > >>> not more often then one per 3 seconds. > >>> > >>> Mirja > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Cheers, > >>>> Med > >>>> > >>>>> -----Message d'origine----- > >>>>> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] > >>>>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 3 juillet 2019 12:26 > >>>>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN > >>>>> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; draft-ietf-dots- > signal- > >>>>> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The > IESG; > >>>>> dots-chairs@ietf.org > >>>>> Objet : Re: Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: [Dots] Mirja > >>> K=C3=BChlewind's > >>>>> Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and > >>> COMMENT) > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi Med, > >>>>> > >>>>> See below. > >>>>> > >>>>>> On 3. Jul 2019, at 09:53, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Mirja, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> (Focusing on individual issues) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Please see inline. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>> Med > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- > >>>>>>> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] > >>>>>>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 2 juillet 2019 16:00 > >>>>>>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN > >>>>>>> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; = draft-ietf-dots- > >>> signal- > >>>>>>> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; = The > >> IESG; > >>>>>>> dots-chairs@ietf.org > >>>>>>> Objet : Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-dots- > >>> signal- > >>>>>>> channel-31: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> ... > >>>>>>>>>>>> 10) The document should more explicitly provide more > >> guidance > >>>>> about > >>>>>>>>>>>> when a client should start a session and what should be = done > >>> (from > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> client side) if a session is detected as inactive (other = than > >>>>> during > >>>>>>>>>>>> migration which is discussed a bit in 4.7). Is the = assumption to > >>>>>>> have > >>>>>>>>>>>> basically permanently an active session or connect for > >> migration > >>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>> configuration requests separately at a time? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I think there was some clarifying text added, but please > confirm > >>> if > >>>>>>> you > >>>>>>>>> think it > >>>>>>>>>>> is sufficient. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Sorry, don=E2=80=99t see where text was added. Can you = provide a > pointer? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [Med] We do have this text, for example: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The DOTS signal channel can be established between two DOTS > >> agents > >>>>>>>> prior or during an attack. The DOTS signal channel is = initiated by > >>>>>>>> the DOTS client. The DOTS client can then negotiate, = configure, > and > >>>>>>>> retrieve the DOTS signal channel session behavior with its = DOTS > peer > >>>>>>>> (Section 4.5). Once the signal channel is established, the = DOTS > >>>>>>>> agents periodically send heartbeats to keep the channel = active > >>>>>>>> (Section 4.7). At any time, the DOTS client may send a = mitigation > >>>>>>>> request message (Section 4.4) to a DOTS server over the = active > >>> signal > >>>>>>>> channel. While mitigation is active (because of the higher > >>>>>>>> likelihood of packet loss during a DDoS attack), the DOTS = server > >>>>>>>> periodically sends status messages to the client, including = basic > >>>>>>>> mitigation feedback details. Mitigation remains active until = the > >>>>>>>> DOTS client explicitly terminates mitigation, or the = mitigation > >>>>>>>> lifetime expires. Also, the DOTS server may rely on the = signal > >>>>>>>> channel session loss to trigger mitigation for pre-configured > >>>>>>>> mitigation requests (if any). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Okay thanks for for the pointer. What I think is missing are = some > >>>>>>> sentences about what the client (or server) should do if the = keep- > >>> alive > >>>>>>> fails. Try to reconnect directly or just with the next request = or > >>>>>>> whatever. Basically who should reconnect and when? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> [Med] This is discussed in details in Section 4.7, in = particular. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As a generic rule, it is always the client who connects (see = the > >>> excerpt > >>>>> above). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The server may use the failure to initiate automated mitigation = (see > >>> the > >>>>> excerpt above). More details are provided in other sections. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> There are several heartbeat failure cases to handle by the = client. > >>>>> Examples from 4.7 are provided below, fwiw: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The DOTS client MUST NOT consider the DOTS signal channel > session > >>>>>> terminated even after a maximum 'missing-hb-allowed' = threshold is > >>>>>> reached. The DOTS client SHOULD keep on using the current = DOTS > >>>>>> signal channel session to send heartbeat requests over it, = so that > >>>>>> the DOTS server knows the DOTS client has not disconnected = the > >>>>>> DOTS signal channel session. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> After the maximum 'missing-hb-allowed' threshold is reached, = the > >>>>>> DOTS client SHOULD try to resume the (D)TLS session. The = DOTS > >>>>>> client SHOULD send mitigation requests over the current DOTS > >>>>>> signal channel session, and in parallel, for example, try to > >>>>>> resume the (D)TLS session or use 0-RTT mode in DTLS 1.3 to > >>>>>> piggyback the mitigation request in the ClientHello message. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As soon as the link is no longer saturated, if traffic from = the > >>>>>> DOTS server reaches the DOTS client over the current DOTS = signal > >>>>>> channel session, the DOTS client can stop (D)TLS session > >>>>>> resumption or if (D)TLS session resumption is successful = then > >>>>>> disconnect the current DOTS signal channel session. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Do you think additional text is needed? > >>>>> > >>>>> Actually to my understanding this will not work. Both TCP = heartbeat > and > >>>>> Coap Ping are transmitted reliably. If you don=E2=80=99t receive = an ack for > >>> these > >>>>> transmissions you are not able to send any additional messages = and > can > >>>>> only choose the connection. > >>>>> > >>>>> Mirja > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Dots mailing list > >> Dots@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Wed Jul 3 13:29:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA0821204E8; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 13:29:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aXa-AA7_3yEK; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 13:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7792120630; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 13:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id x63KT7nF015761 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 3 Jul 2019 16:29:09 -0400 Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 15:29:07 -0500 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases.all@ietf.org Cc: dots@ietf.org, Nik Teague Message-ID: <20190703202906.GD13047@kduck.mit.edu> References: <20190702223654.GF13810@kduck.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20190702223654.GF13810@kduck.mit.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 20:29:24 -0000 On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 05:36:54PM -0500, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > > (2) The shepherd writeup indicates that three authors (Stefan, Bob, and > Nik) have not indicated conformance with BCPs 78 and 79. I don't think > I can issue the IETF LC until that gets straightened out, so please > confirm that we're all squared away! Oops, I didn't find https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/M7gWTMUWUB8X6niaYCimlN127fE until after I posted the initial review. Thanks, Nik! -Ben From nobody Thu Jul 4 07:11:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E865A120089; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 07:11:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6nMkIyilJjvh; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 07:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7226120072; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 07:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar06.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.8]) by opfedar23.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45ffzN5lhpzBrqb; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 16:11:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.86]) by opfedar06.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45ffzN4s3vz3wbH; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 16:11:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBMA4.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 16:11:28 +0200 From: To: Benjamin Kaduk , "draft-ietf-dots-use-cases.all@ietf.org" CC: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17 Thread-Index: AQHVMSa/OPXazqApP0OTwhn2y7Ux66a6gFUA Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 14:11:27 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EABF7CD@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <20190702223654.GF13810@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20190702223654.GF13810@kduck.mit.edu> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 14:11:32 -0000 Hi Ben, all, Please see one comment inline.=20 Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Benjamin Kaduk > Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 3 juillet 2019 00:37 > =C0=A0: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases.all@ietf.org > Cc=A0: dots@ietf.org > Objet=A0: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17 >=20 > First off, a few housekeeping items: > =20 > (3) Recently the IESG has been trying to exert some gentle backpressure > against publishing Informational use-cases/requirements drafts, when they > serve only as input to future protocol specifications and do not have > lasting archival value on their own. I do see in the shepherd writeup > that > the working group did reach consensus to publish this document and think > there's enough value in it to be worth publishing; I just mention this so > that people aren't surprised if the IESG evaluation comes back with > questions about whether we should be publishing the document at all. >=20 [Med] FWIW, the WG discussed this point early in the process and made a dec= ision to publish. Please check https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/l= 0phQdpmSc4j6XhfxUyx-lrrDzk. This pointer may be added to the write-up, IMO.= =20 From nobody Thu Jul 4 09:00:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDE7212011F for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 09:00:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=0x46.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rxGolWo6pzFK for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 09:00:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-40132.protonmail.ch (mail-40132.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B65FA1200A3 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 09:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 16:00:32 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=0x46.uk; s=protonmail; t=1562256034; bh=Wf+INoStUcdrppE//waeoSvpYjEsa8549gXxYErKxBI=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From; b=M5rV7MwPUV7U9taEgZ1A5jMU/3d1fIqhrymT9FWKvndwHdHXMRuKyMzXU/YXvsITD R2lwKjzzPdYxUiYw5N8U2cTf3Yh+2nd4RPcgA5kHXbaAI1hSt9xVtfWdUVawM54CP4 zikEm2CJfr2jYZ7JCazTVC0JOUHcxJyyVzVKaQPs= To: kaduk@mit.edu, draft-ietf-dots-use-cases.all@ietf.org From: Nik Teague Cc: dots@ietf.org Reply-To: Nik Teague Message-ID: <58fUfQIr1SMe_bQT6AJKYrrM8mh6L-NUXe5Ne8exSUZui1mHbWbuol85idMsp02IglvvPVGlR7EqXo8veCncoByhz1t3EGrNM51wnyhWZl8=@0x46.uk> In-Reply-To: <20190702223654.GF13810@kduck.mit.edu> References: <20190702223654.GF13810@kduck.mit.edu> Feedback-ID: Y91J0Zr2tpkE2KpleD3ti1ZrR04h6-F6NTTavVNwZ9GVklA9qvQM6vy4qrECIh7ulSHz17JKDFAAnkqRqLmlTg==:Ext:ProtonMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="b1_375272b7a21f6731b2c6fff357a13666" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC0911200B6; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 13:13:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.398 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ugKKfKGHR-Ds; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 13:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk1-f170.google.com (mail-vk1-f170.google.com [209.85.221.170]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD9F1120223; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 13:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk1-f170.google.com with SMTP id e83so804509vke.12; Thu, 04 Jul 2019 13:13:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EfeKNvKT8WVKQPJ2bahJofyz657GA0HTZs4YgaRyoZk=; b=JLT6M1vJoGu5BiZo7zSApDbfgJ/QMd0iz0ApzPCIGfDpF7iPJu8RuCzaZbsJYLTd+G uI2JO2qJuuIXUFvtJzJbWxEIm9/ApeqoBg2E0rk/8okiSZyK0HorlPb9cJCkQPKrgAli f4mE1YZY/CWtL8TVsIiv+cuOraWBxoiehvd73ua47mdFO47VDlmD6itNYLwlDqqibFVd YFVxCRQGnVZ1YLIUSa0EavuJG+KDnuDbBWaxygd7mDdJ1j1OjjXPs9iIh/VbUFaBuRcj jycamBCREJ+DCr9/QPSUb8zGv5vTSof65TWA47+ts4PSC7uvJHMc6hHL4ZNeNmqH3OSE Lnqg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUHkTzJEyX4+H8gyAfwH9hI1YvObp/svctBuyGNrAi4CNy4l9zs 9cq+9r8yMzgAE5Jmuj2WxL7dP3SFfCW6Wik22X0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwRsaJGIg5uBUNODaRGUpCUOBmsmPmEaWPTfrlql97OH6vMT8H5vSTLsRPO+++dGzLdMRau2l1M3qAuDdYHPCU= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:1b0a:: with SMTP id b10mr13461391vkb.19.1562271229293; Thu, 04 Jul 2019 13:13:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190702223654.GF13810@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20190702223654.GF13810@kduck.mit.edu> From: Daniel Migault Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 16:13:38 -0400 Message-ID: To: Benjamin Kaduk Cc: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases.all@ietf.org, dots Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000aa3b19058ce09ddb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 20:13:54 -0000 --000000000000aa3b19058ce09ddb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Thank you for the review. Please find my response in line as well as on the git repo [1]. WG, co-authors, please review section 3.3 by Friday EOB. In summary we addressed all comments, major changes are: a) Figure 2 with a channel from DOTS client and DOTS server with th eaddition of the following text: """ In some cases the communication between the enterprise DOTS client and the DOTS server of the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider may go through the ITP carrying the DDoS attack, which would affect the communication. On the other hand, the communication between the DOTS client and DOTS server may take a path that is not undergoing a DDoS attack. """ b) telemetry We clarified DOTS client/server involved. c) it was unclear to me how to address the following comment. > The communication between a network administrator and the > orchestrator is also performed using DOTS. The network administrator > via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the > Orchestrator implements a DOTS server. > > nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator has a > web interface. I think "its" is supposed to refer to something else. > > What we are trying to say is that the network administrator sees its web interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that interface. I have not made any change to address that concern, as I do not clearly see what is confusing. Yours, Daniel [1] https://github.com/dotswg/dots-use-cases/commit/e251fb8abb51ba0c68471e847037daf2e81d38aa On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 6:37 PM Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > First off, a few housekeeping items: > > (1) This document lists seven authors, and per RFC 7322 I/the IESG needs > to specially consider this and essentially make an exception to have > more than five authors. Can you please confirm that all listed authors > have made substantial contributions, so that I can take that to the IESG > and get it approved? > > (2) The shepherd writeup indicates that three authors (Stefan, Bob, and > Nik) have not indicated conformance with BCPs 78 and 79. I don't think > I can issue the IETF LC until that gets straightened out, so please > confirm that we're all squared away! > > (3) Recently the IESG has been trying to exert some gentle backpressure > against publishing Informational use-cases/requirements drafts, when they > serve only as input to future protocol specifications and do not have > lasting archival value on their own. I do see in the shepherd writeup that > the working group did reach consensus to publish this document and think > there's enough value in it to be worth publishing; I just mention this so > that people aren't surprised if the IESG evaluation comes back with > questions about whether we should be publishing the document at all. > > Other than those, the document is generally in good shape; there's just > a few substantive questions buried in the editorial nits. > > On to the section-by-section comments: > > Section 2 > > o DDoS Mitigation Service: designates a DDoS mitigation service > provided to a customer and which is scoped to mitigate DDoS > attacks. [...] > > I don't really think that using the lowercase-'s' version to define the > uppercase-'S' version of the term is going to help anyone. > The text has been replaced by the following: * DDoS Mitigation Service: designates a service provided to a customer to mitigate DDoS attacks. Services usually involve Service Level Agreement (SLA) that have to be met. It is the responsibility of the DDoS Service provider to instantiate the DDoS Mitigation System to meet these SLAs. > > Section 3.1 > > It's a little surprising that we have the two bullet points near the top > about the enterprise DMS acting as a DOTS client for the first kind of > service but as a DOTS server for the second kind, but then we never seem > to talk about that second kind of service again in the document. > Perhaps we should just explicitly say that it's similar to the first > kind and not covered further? > > I agree that could be mentioned explicitly. Here is the proposed text to address that concern. The two scenarios, thought different, have similar interactions between the DOTS client and server. For the sake of simplicity, only the first scenario will be detailed in this section. When the enterprise DMS detects an inbound DDoS attack targeting its > resources ( e.g. servers, hosts or applications), it immediately > begins a DDoS Mitigation. > > I'd consider clarifying that this mitigation is entirely local within > the enterprise, so that contacting the ITP in the next step is a clear > escalation. > > To address the concern we specify that the mitigation is handled locally as well as we explicitly indicate the escalation procedure. I believe the following text address your concern: When the enterprise DMS locally detects an inbound DDoS attack targeting its resources ( e.g. servers, hosts or applications), it immediately begins a DDoS Mitigation. During the course of the attack, the inbound traffic volume exceeds the 50% threshold and the enterprise DMS escalates the DDoS mitigation. The enterprise DMS DOTS client signals the DOTS server on the upstream ITP to initiate DDoS Mitigation. The DOTS server signals the DOTS client that it can serve this request, and mitigation is initiated on the ITP network by the ITP DMS. > related information. Once the DDoS attack has ended, or decreased to > the certain level that the DOTS client can handle by itself, the DOTS > server signals the enterprise DMS DOTS client that the attack has > subsided. > > I think it's the enterprise DMS that is handling the attack, not the > DOTS client directly... > This is correct. This has been corrected as follows: Over the course of the attack, the DOTS server of the ITP periodically informs the DOTS client on the enterprise DMS mitigation status, statistics related to DDoS attack traffic mitigation, and related information. Once the DDoS attack has ended, or decreased to the certain level that the enterprise DMS can handle by itself, the DOTS server signals the enterprise DMS DOTS client that the attack has subsided. > The enterprise DMS then requests the ITP to terminate the DDoS > Mitigation. The DOTS server on the ITP receives this request and > > .... but this one is the DOTS client. > > Yes we sometime probably abused metonymy, but I agree the more specific the better. I believe the following text is clarifying. The DOTS client on the enterprise DMS then requests the ITP to terminate the DDoS Mitigation. The DOTS server on the ITP receives this request and once the mitigation has ended, confirms the end of upstream DDoS Mitigation to the enterprise DMS DOTS client. > o (a) A DDoS attack is initiated against resources of a network > organization which has deployed a DOTS-capable DMS - typically a > DOTS client. > > We probably want to reiterate in a parenthetical "network organization > (here, the enterprise)" the terminology we're using. > > Here is the current text: * (a) A DDoS attack is initiated against resources of a network organization (here, the enterprise) which has deployed a DOTS-capable DMS - typically a DOTS client. > o (d) The DOTS server which receives the DOTS Mitigation request > determines that it has been configured to honor requests from the > requesting DOTS client, and honored its DDoS Mitigation by > orchestrating its DMS. > > nit: I think s/honored/honors/ to stay in the present tense. > > I agree. here is the proposed text: * (d) The DOTS server which receives the DOTS Mitigation request determines that it has been configured to honor requests from the requesting DOTS client, and honors its DDoS Mitigation by orchestrating its DMS. > o (e) While the DDoS Mitigation is active, DOTS server regularly > transmits DOTS DDoS Mitigation status updates to the DOTS client. > > nit: "the DOTS server" or "servers regularly transmit". > > I agree, here is the corrected text: * (e) While the DDoS Mitigation is active, the DOTS server regularly transmits DOTS DDoS Mitigation status updates to the DOTS client. > Section 3.2 > > As such, this use case likely to match large enterprises or large > data centers, but not exclusively. [...] > > nit: "is likely" > > This has been added as follows: As such, this use case is likely to match large enterprises or large data centers, but not exclusively. In this scenario, an Enterprise Network has entered into a pre- > arranged DDoS mitigation assistance agreement with one or more other > DDoS Mitigation Service Providers in order to ensure that sufficient > DDoS mitigation capacity and/or capabilities may be activated in the > event that a given DDoS attack threatens to overwhelm the ability of > a given DMS to mitigate the attack on its own. > > We could perhaps say "overwhelm the ability of the enterprise's or any > other given DMS" since in most cases the enterprise DMS is the one at > risk of first being overwhelmed. > > I agree that is better. Here is the modified text: In this scenario, an Enterprise Network has entered into a pre-arranged DDoS mitigation assistance agreement with one or more other DDoS Mitigation Service Providers in order to ensure that sufficient DDoS mitigation capacity and/or capabilities may be activated in the event that a given DDoS attack threatens to overwhelm the ability of the enterprise's or any other given DMS to mitigate the attack on its own. > Is the fact that the C<-->S DOTS traffic does not go through the ITP in > Figure 3 an intentional change from Figure 2 (in that they are expected > to be communicating "out of band" or not through the enterprise's normal > transit)? Some readers might see this and get confused if this > communication is still supposed to be going along the regular transit > path. > > The intention was to indicate the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider is not the upstream ITP and thus communication MAY have to transit through the ITP. I understand from your comment that it might be interpreted as the communication MUST go through the ITP. I propose to have the DMS communicating directly via a distinct channel and mention explicitly that the DOTS channel MAY transit via the ITP or may use a dedicated path. Here is the updated figure and the additional text: +------------------+ +------------------+ | Enterprise | | Upstream | | Network | | Internet Transit | | | | Provider | | +--------+ | | DDoS Attack | | DDoS | | <================================= | | Target | | <================================= | +--------+ | | | | | | | | | +------------------+ | | | | +------------------+ | | | DDoS Mitigation | | | | Service Provider | | | | | | +------------+ | | +------------+ | | | DDoS |<------------>| DDoS | | | | Mitigation |C | | S| Mitigation | | | | System | | | | System | | | +------------+ | | +------------+ | +------------------+ +------------------+ * C is for DOTS client functionality * S is for DOTS server functionality Figure 2: DDoS Mitigation between an Enterprise Network and Third Party DDoS Mitigation Service Provider [...] In some cases the communication between the enterprise DOTS client and the DOTS server of the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider may go through the ITP carrying the DDoS attack, which would affect the communication. On the other hand, the communication between the DOTS client and DOTS server may take a path that is not undergoing a DDoS attack. > Section 3.3 > > In this use case, one or more DDoS telemetry systems or monitoring > devices monitor a network - typically an ISP network, an Enterprise > network, or a data center. Upon detection of a DDoS attack, these > DDoS telemetry systems alert an orchestrator in charge of > coordinating the various DMS within the domain. [...] > > nit: do we have a standard plural form for "DMS"? (Is it just "DMS"?) > > Seems that DMS's is more appropriated. This has been changed. Upon detection of a DDoS attack, these DDoS telemetry systems alert an orchestrator in charge of coordinating the various DMS's within the domain. > ITP. DDoS Mitigation System selection and DDoS Mitigation technique > may depends on the type of DDoS attack. In some case, a manual > > nit: "techniques" plural > > Corrected: DDoS Mitigation System selection and DDoS Mitigation techniques may depends on the type of DDoS attack. The communication between a network administrator and the > orchestrator is also performed using DOTS. The network administrator > via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the > Orchestrator implements a DOTS server. > > nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator has a > web interface. I think "its" is supposed to refer to something else. > > What we are trying to say is that the network administrator sees its web interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that interface. I have not made any change to address that concern, as I do not clearly see what is confusing. > nit: Figure 4 lists "DDoS mitigation systems" in both the interprise and > the ITP, but only the enterprise side has a "stack" of boxes to indicate > there is more than one. > Both have two DMS's now. > > These systems are configured so that when an event or some > measurement indicators reach a predefined level to send DOTS > mitigation request to the orchestrator. The DOTS mitigation request > > nit: the grammar here is a bit off; I think s/to send DOTS mitigation > request/they send a DOTS mitigation request/ would fix it. > > Thanks. This has been corrected accordingly: These systems are configured so that when an event or some measurement indicators reach a predefined level they send a DOTS mitigation request to the orchestrator. > Upon receipt of the DOTS mitigation request from the DDoS telemetry > system, the orchestrator responds with an acknowledgment, to avoid > retransmission of the request for mitigation. The orchestrator may > begin collecting additional fined grain and specific information from > > nit: "fine-grained" > > and provide an analysis of the event. Eventually, the orchestrator > may ask additional information to the DDoS telemetry system, however, > the collection of these information is out of scope. > > nit: s/ask additional information to/ask for additional information > from/ > nit: semicolon before "however" instead of comma > nit: "this information" > > Thanks for the nits. All have been addressed in the text below: The orchestrator may begin collecting additional fine-grained and specific information from various DDoS telemetry systems in order to correlate the measurements and provide an analysis of the event. Eventually, the orchestrator may ask for additional information from the DDoS telemetry system; however, the collection of this information is out of scope. > Upon receiving a request to mitigate a DDoS attack performed over a > target, the orchestrator, may evaluate the volumetry of the attack as > > nit: no comma after "the orchestrator" > > well as the value that represent the target. The orchestrator may > > nit: "the value that the target represents" > > The text has been corrected as follows: Upon receiving a request to mitigate a DDoS attack performed over a target, the orchestrator may evaluate the volumetry of the attack as well as the value that the target represents. > When DDoS Mitigation is requested, the status > indicates the DDoS Mitigation is starting while not effective. The > DOTS client of the orchestrator will later be notified that the DDoS > Mitigation is effective. > > I'm not entirely sure what this last sentence is trying to say. > > Initially, I believe we wanted to distinguish between accepting the mitigation and having the mitigation effective. I do not think that necessary here as such details are provided in section 3.1. The orchestrator requests a DDoS Mitigation to the selected DDoS mitigation systems via its DOTS client, as described in Section 3.1. > Orchestration of the DDoS mitigation systems works similarly as > described in Section 3.1. The orchestrator indicates with its status > whether the DDoS Mitigation is effective. > > Is this intended to specifically refer to the external (ITP) DMS? > > We did not see any differences between the DMS. I believe that the text above clarify the DMS is the one selected by the orchestrator. > Also, my understanding is that for this interaction the orchestrator is > acting as a DOTS client, but the rest of the document only has status > messages being generated by the DOTS server. Am I confused? > > The orchestrator got DOTS client and DOTS servers. I updated the section to clarify which entity is involved in term of DOTS. I believe that clarifies the concern. > Section 4 > > It feels incomplete to list three primary attacks but only discuss > mitigations for two of them. Perhaps "preconfigured mitigation steps to > take on the loss of keepalive traffic can partially mitigate signal > blocking, but in general it is impossible to comprehensively defend > against an attacker that can selectively block any or all traffic". > > Just added this sentence. > Section 6 > > Is Med's name spelled correctly? > > Now it is spelt correctly! Thanks. > > Thanks, > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > --000000000000aa3b19058ce09ddb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,=C2=A0

Thank you for the = review. Please find my response in line as well as on the git repo [1].=C2= =A0 WG, co-authors, please review section 3.3 by Friday EOB.=C2=A0

In summary we addressed all comments, major changes are:

a) Figure 2 with a channel from DOTS client and DOT= S server with th eaddition of the following text:
"&quo= t;"
In some cases the communication between the enterprise D= OTS client and
the DOTS server of the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider m= ay go through
the ITP carrying the DDoS attack, which would affect thecommunication. On the other hand, the communication between the DOTS
c= lient and DOTS server may take a path that is not undergoing a DDoS
atta= ck.
"""

b) telemetry=C2=A0=

We clarified DOTS client/server involved.

c) it was unclear to me how to address the following comm= ent.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0The communi= cation between a network administrator and the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0orchestrator= is also performed using DOTS.=C2=A0 The network administrator
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0Orchestrator implements a DOTS server.

nit: as written, this i= s saying that the network administrator has a
web interface.=C2=A0 I thi= nk "its" is supposed to refer to something else.

<mglt>
What we are trying to say is that the netwo= rk administrator sees its web interface, and instruct the DOTS client from = that interface. I have not made any change to address that concern, as I do= not clearly see what is confusing.=C2=A0=C2=A0
</mglt>


Yours,=C2=A0
Daniel



On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 6:37 PM Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
First off, a few housekeeping items= :

(1) This document lists seven authors, and per RFC 7322 I/the IESG needs to specially consider this and essentially make an exception to have
more than five authors.=C2=A0 Can you please confirm that all listed author= s
have made substantial contributions, so that I can take that to the IESG and get it approved?

(2) The shepherd writeup indicates that three authors (Stefan, Bob, and
Nik) have not indicated conformance with BCPs 78 and 79.=C2=A0 I don't = think
I can issue the IETF LC until that gets straightened out, so please
confirm that we're all squared away!

(3) Recently the IESG has been trying to exert some gentle backpressure
against publishing Informational use-cases/requirements drafts, when they serve only as input to future protocol specifications and do not have
lasting archival value on their own.=C2=A0 I do see in the shepherd writeup= that
the working group did reach consensus to publish this document and think there's enough value in it to be worth publishing; I just mention this = so
that people aren't surprised if the IESG evaluation comes back with
questions about whether we should be publishing the document at all.

Other than those, the document is generally in good shape; there's just=
a few substantive questions buried in the editorial nits.

On to the section-by-section comments:

Section 2

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 DDoS Mitigation Service: designates a DDoS mitigation = service
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 provided to a customer and which is scoped to mitigate= DDoS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attacks.=C2=A0 [...]

I don't really think that using the lowercase-'s' version to de= fine the
uppercase-'S' version of the term is going to help anyone.
<mglt>
The text has been replaced by the follo= wing:

* DDoS Mitigation Service: designates a serv= ice provided to a
customer to mitigate DDoS attacks.=C2=A0 Services usua= lly involve Service
Level Agreement (SLA) that have to be met.=C2=A0 It = is the responsibility of
the DDoS Service provider to instantiate the DD= oS Mitigation System to
meet these SLAs.

</mglt>= =C2=A0

Section 3.1

It's a little surprising that we have the two bullet points near the to= p
about the enterprise DMS acting as a DOTS client for the first kind of
service but as a DOTS server for the second kind, but then we never seem to talk about that second kind of service again in the document.
Perhaps we should just explicitly say that it's similar to the first kind and not covered further?

<mglt>
I agree that could be mentione= d explicitly. Here is the proposed text to address that concern.=C2=A0

=C2=A0The two scenarios, thought different, have simil= ar interactions between
the DOTS client and server. For the sake of si= mplicity, only the first
scenario will be detailed in this section.
<= div></mglt>=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0When the enterprise DMS detects an inbound DDoS attack targeti= ng its
=C2=A0 =C2=A0resources ( e.g. servers, hosts or applications), it immediate= ly
=C2=A0 =C2=A0begins a DDoS Mitigation.

I'd consider clarifying that this mitigation is entirely local within the enterprise, so that contacting the ITP in the next step is a clear
escalation.

<mglt>
To address the concern we spec= ify that the mitigation is handled locally as well as we explicitly indicat= e the escalation procedure.=C2=A0 I believe the following text address your= concern:

When the enterprise DMS locally detects = an inbound DDoS attack targeting
its resources ( e.g. servers, hosts or= applications), it immediately
begins a DDoS Mitigation.

During t= he course of the attack, the inbound traffic volume exceeds the
50% thre= shold and the enterprise DMS escalates the DDoS mitigation.=C2=A0 The
e= nterprise DMS DOTS client signals the DOTS server on the upstream ITP
to= initiate DDoS Mitigation. The DOTS server signals the DOTS client
that = it can serve this request, and mitigation is initiated on the ITP
networ= k by the ITP DMS.
</mglt>
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0related information.=C2=A0 Once the DDoS attack has ended, or = decreased to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the certain level that the DOTS client can handle by itself, t= he DOTS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0server signals the enterprise DMS DOTS client that the attack = has
=C2=A0 =C2=A0subsided.

I think it's the enterprise DMS that is handling the attack, not the DOTS client directly...
<mglt>
This is= correct. This has been corrected as follows:

Over= the course of the attack, the DOTS server of the ITP periodically
infor= ms the DOTS client on the enterprise DMS mitigation status,
statistics r= elated to DDoS attack traffic mitigation, and related
information. Once = the DDoS attack has ended, or decreased to the certain
level that the en= terprise DMS can handle by itself, the DOTS server
signals the enterpris= e DMS DOTS client that the attack has subsided.
</mglt>=C2= =A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The enterprise DMS then requests the ITP to terminate the DDoS=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Mitigation.=C2=A0 The DOTS server on the ITP receives this req= uest and

.... but this one is the DOTS client.

<mglt>

Yes we sometime= probably abused metonymy, but I agree the more specific
the bett= er. I believe the following text is clarifying.

Th= e DOTS client on the enterprise DMS then requests the ITP to terminate
t= he DDoS Mitigation. The DOTS server on the ITP receives this request
and= once the mitigation has ended, confirms the end of upstream DDoS
Mitiga= tion to the enterprise DMS DOTS client.

</mglt>=C2= =A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 (a) A DDoS attack is initiated against resources of a = network
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 organization which has deployed a DOTS-capable DMS - t= ypically a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 DOTS client.

We probably want to reiterate in a parenthetical "network organization=
(here, the enterprise)" the terminology we're using.

<mglt>
Here is the current text:
<= /div>

* (a) A DDoS attack is initiated against resources= of a
network organization (here, the enterprise) which has deployed a <= br>DOTS-capable DMS - typically a DOTS client.
</mglt><= /div>
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 (d) The DOTS server which receives the DOTS Mitigation= request
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 determines that it has been configured to honor reques= ts from the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 requesting DOTS client, and honored its DDoS Mitigatio= n by
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 orchestrating its DMS.

nit: I think s/honored/honors/ to stay in the present tense.

<mglt>
I agree. here is the proposed = text:

* (d) The DOTS server which receives the DOT= S Mitigation request
determines that it has been configured to honor req= uests from the
requesting DOTS client, and honors its DDoS Mitigation by= orchestrating
its DMS.

</mglt>
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 (e) While the DDoS Mitigation is active, DOTS server r= egularly
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transmits DOTS DDoS Mitigation status updates to the D= OTS client.

nit: "the DOTS server" or "servers regularly transmit".=

<mglt>
I agree, here is the corrected= text:
=C2=A0
* (e) While the DDoS Mitigation is active= , the DOTS server
regularly transmits DOTS DDoS Mitigation status update= s to the DOTS
client.
</mglt>
=C2=A0
=
Section 3.2

=C2=A0 =C2=A0As such, this use case likely to match large enterprises or la= rge
=C2=A0 =C2=A0data centers, but not exclusively.=C2=A0 [...]

nit: "is likely"

<mglt>
This has been added as follows= :

As such, this use case is
likely to match lar= ge enterprises or large data centers, but not
exclusively.
</mglt>=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0In this scenario, an Enterprise Network has entered into a pre= -
=C2=A0 =C2=A0arranged DDoS mitigation assistance agreement with one or more= other
=C2=A0 =C2=A0DDoS Mitigation Service Providers in order to ensure that suff= icient
=C2=A0 =C2=A0DDoS mitigation capacity and/or capabilities may be activated = in the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0event that a given DDoS attack threatens to overwhelm the abil= ity of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0a given DMS to mitigate the attack on its own.

We could perhaps say "overwhelm the ability of the enterprise's or= any
other given DMS" since in most cases the enterprise DMS is the one at<= br> risk of first being overwhelmed.

<mglt>
I agree that is better. Here i= s the modified text:

In this scenario, an Enterpri= se Network has entered into a pre-arranged
DDoS mitigation assistance ag= reement with one or more other DDoS
Mitigation Service Providers in orde= r to ensure that sufficient DDoS
mitigation capacity and/or capabilities= may be activated in the event
that a given DDoS attack threatens to ove= rwhelm the ability of the
enterprise's or any other given DMS to mit= igate the attack on its own.
</mglt>
=C2=A0
Is the fact that the C<-->S DOTS traffic does not go through the ITP = in
Figure 3 an intentional change from Figure 2 (in that they are expected
to be communicating "out of band" or not through the enterprise&#= 39;s normal
transit)?=C2=A0 Some readers might see this and get confused if this
communication is still supposed to be going along the regular transit
path.

<mglt>
The intention was to indicate = the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider is not the upstream ITP and thus commu= nication MAY have to transit through the ITP.=C2=A0 I understand from your = comment that it might be interpreted as the communication MUST go through t= he ITP.=C2=A0

I propose to have the DMS communicat= ing directly via a distinct channel and mention explicitly that the DOTS ch= annel MAY transit via the ITP or may use a dedicated path.

Here is the updated figure and the additional text:

=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+------------------+ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0+------------------+
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Enterpris= e =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Upstream =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Network =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Internet Transit |
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Provider =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 |
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--------+= =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 DDoS Attack
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| DD= oS =C2=A0 | =C2=A0| <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Target | =C2=A0| <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--------+ =C2=A0| =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+------------------+
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+------------------+
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| DDoS Mitigation =C2=A0|
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Service Provider |
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0+------= ------+ =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0+------------+ =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0| DDoS =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |<-----= ------->| DDoS =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0| =C2=A0| Mitigation |C | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| S| Mitigation = | =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0| System =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | = =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0| System =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0|=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0+------------+ =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0+------------+ =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= +------------------+ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+------------------+
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* C is for DOTS client functional= ity
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* S is for DOTS server func= tionality

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Figure 2: DDoS Mitigation betwe= en an Enterprise Network and Third
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Party DDoS Mitigation Service Provider
=

[...]

In some cases the commun= ication between the enterprise DOTS client and
the DOTS server of the DD= oS Mitigation Service Provider may go through
the ITP carrying the DDoS = attack, which would affect the
communication. On the other hand, the com= munication between the DOTS
client and DOTS server may take a path that = is not undergoing a DDoS
attack.
=C2=A0
</mgl= t>
=C2=A0
Section 3.3

=C2=A0 =C2=A0In this use case, one or more DDoS telemetry systems or monito= ring
=C2=A0 =C2=A0devices monitor a network - typically an ISP network, an Enter= prise
=C2=A0 =C2=A0network, or a data center.=C2=A0 Upon detection of a DDoS atta= ck, these
=C2=A0 =C2=A0DDoS telemetry systems alert an orchestrator in charge of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0coordinating the various DMS within the domain.=C2=A0 [...]
nit: do we have a standard plural form for "DMS"?=C2=A0 (Is it ju= st "DMS"?)

<mglt>
Seems that DMS's is more a= ppropriated. This has been changed.

Upon detection= of a DDoS attack, these DDoS
telemetry systems alert an orchestrator in= charge of coordinating the
various DMS's within the domain.

</mglt>
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ITP.=C2=A0 DDoS Mitigation System selection and DDoS Mitigatio= n technique
=C2=A0 =C2=A0may depends on the type of DDoS attack.=C2=A0 In some case, a = manual

nit: "techniques" plural

<mglt>
Corrected:

DDoS Mitigation System selection and DDoS Mitigation techniques maydepends on the type of DDoS attack.
</mglt>=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The communication between a network administrator and the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0orchestrator is also performed using DOTS.=C2=A0 The network a= dministrator
=C2=A0 =C2=A0via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Orchestrator implements a DOTS server.

nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator has a
web interface.=C2=A0 I think "its" is supposed to refer to someth= ing else.

<mglt>
What we are trying to say is t= hat the network administrator sees its web interface, and instruct the DOTS= client from that interface. I have not made any change to address that con= cern, as I do not clearly see what is confusing.=C2=A0=C2=A0
<= /mglt>
=C2=A0
nit: Figure 4 lists "DDoS mitigation systems" in both the interpr= ise and
the ITP, but only the enterprise side has a "stack" of boxes to i= ndicate
there is more than one.
=C2=A0<mglt>
B= oth have two DMS's now.


</mg= lt>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0These systems are configured so that when an event or some
=C2=A0 =C2=A0measurement indicators reach a predefined level to send DOTS =C2=A0 =C2=A0mitigation request to the orchestrator.=C2=A0 The DOTS mitigat= ion request

nit: the grammar here is a bit off; I think s/to send DOTS mitigation
request/they send a DOTS mitigation request/ would fix it.

<mglt>
Thanks. This has been correcte= d accordingly:

These systems are configured so tha= t when an event or some measurement
indicators reach a predefined level = they send a DOTS mitigation request
to the orchestrator.
=
</mglt>
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Upon receipt of the DOTS mitigation request from the DDoS tele= metry
=C2=A0 =C2=A0system, the orchestrator responds with an acknowledgment, to a= void
=C2=A0 =C2=A0retransmission of the request for mitigation.=C2=A0 The orches= trator may
=C2=A0 =C2=A0begin collecting additional fined grain and specific informati= on from

nit: "fine-grained"

=C2=A0 =C2=A0and provide an analysis of the event.=C2=A0 Eventually, the or= chestrator
=C2=A0 =C2=A0may ask additional information to the DDoS telemetry system, h= owever,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the collection of these information is out of scope.

nit: s/ask additional information to/ask for additional information
from/
nit: semicolon before "however" instead of comma
nit: "this information"

<mglt>
Thanks for the nits. All have = been addressed in the text below:

The orchestrator= may
begin collecting additional fine-grained and specific information f= rom
various =C2=A0DDoS telemetry systems in order to correlate the meas= urements
and provide an analysis of the event. Eventually, the orchestra= tor may
ask for additional information from the DDoS telemetry system; h= owever,
the collection of this information is out of scope.

</mglt>
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Upon receiving a request to mitigate a DDoS attack performed o= ver a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0target, the orchestrator, may evaluate the volumetry of the at= tack as

nit: no comma after "the orchestrator"

=C2=A0 =C2=A0well as the value that represent the target.=C2=A0 The orchest= rator may

nit: "the value that the target represents"

<mglt>
The text has been corrected as= follows:
Upon receiving a request to mitigate a DDoS attack perf= ormed over a
target, the orchestrator may evaluate the volumetry of the = attack as
well as the value that the target represents.=C2=A0
<= div></mglt>
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 When DDoS Mitigation is requested, the status
=C2=A0 =C2=A0indicates the DDoS Mitigation is starting while not effective.= =C2=A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0DOTS client of the orchestrator will later be notified that th= e DDoS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Mitigation is effective.

I'm not entirely sure what this last sentence is trying to say.

<mglt>
Initially, I believe we wanted= to distinguish between accepting the mitigation and having the mitigation = effective. I do not think that=C2=A0 necessary here as such details are pro= vided in section 3.1.=C2=A0

The orchestrator reque= sts a DDoS Mitigation to the selected
DDoS mitigation systems via its DO= TS client, as described in Section
3.1.
</mglt>=C2= =A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Orchestration of the DDoS mitigation systems works similarly a= s
=C2=A0 =C2=A0described in Section 3.1.=C2=A0 The orchestrator indicates wit= h its status
=C2=A0 =C2=A0whether the DDoS Mitigation is effective.

Is this intended to specifically refer to the external (ITP) DMS?

<mglt>
We did not see any differences= between the DMS. I believe that the text above clarify the DMS is the one = selected by the orchestrator.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
</mglt>= ;
=C2=A0
Also, my understanding is that for this interaction the orchestrator is
acting as a DOTS client, but the rest of the document only has status
messages being generated by the DOTS server.=C2=A0 Am I confused?
=C2=A0
<mglt>
The orchestrator got DOT= S client and DOTS servers. I updated the section to clarify which entity is= involved in term of DOTS. I believe that clarifies the concern.=C2=A0

</mglt>=C2=A0
Section 4

It feels incomplete to list three primary attacks but only discuss
mitigations for two of them.=C2=A0 Perhaps "preconfigured mitigation s= teps to
take on the loss of keepalive traffic can partially mitigate signal
blocking, but in general it is impossible to comprehensively defend
against an attacker that can selectively block any or all traffic".
<mglt>
Just added this sentence.
</mglt>=C2=A0
Section 6

Is Med's name spelled correctly?

<mglt>
Now it is spelt correctly! Tha= nks.=C2=A0
</mglt>=C2=A0

Thanks,

Ben

_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
--000000000000aa3b19058ce09ddb-- From nobody Thu Jul 4 23:01:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B250D1200CE; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 23:01:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CXAEyjyYRDEO; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 23:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93A701200F6; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 23:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar04.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.6]) by opfedar22.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45g43J4tXWz2xGt; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 08:01:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.86]) by opfedar04.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45g43J3jMkz1xp6; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 08:01:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBMA4.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 08:01:16 +0200 From: To: Daniel Migault CC: "draft-ietf-dots-use-cases.all@ietf.org" , dots , "Benjamin Kaduk" Thread-Topic: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17 Thread-Index: AQHVMqT3OPXazqApP0OTwhn2y7Ux66a7ht0w Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 06:01:15 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAC0D83@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <20190702223654.GF13810@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAC0D83OPEXCAUBMA2corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 06:01:24 -0000 --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAC0D83OPEXCAUBMA2corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgRGFuaWVsLA0KDQpGV0lXLCBjaGFuZ2VzIHRvIGZpeCBzb21lIG5pdHMgY2FuIGJlIGZvdW5k IGF0Og0KDQpodHRwczovL2dpdGh1Yi5jb20vZG90c3dnL2RvdHMtdXNlLWNhc2VzL3B1bGwvMTAv ZmlsZXMNCg0KQ2hlZXJzLA0KTWVkDQoNCkRlIDogRG90cyBbbWFpbHRvOmRvdHMtYm91bmNlc0Bp ZXRmLm9yZ10gRGUgbGEgcGFydCBkZSBEYW5pZWwgTWlnYXVsdA0KRW52b3nDqSA6IGpldWRpIDQg anVpbGxldCAyMDE5IDIyOjE0DQrDgCA6IEJlbmphbWluIEthZHVrDQpDYyA6IGRyYWZ0LWlldGYt ZG90cy11c2UtY2FzZXMuYWxsQGlldGYub3JnOyBkb3RzDQpPYmpldCA6IFJlOiBbRG90c10gQUQg cmV2aWV3IG9mIGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtZG90cy11c2UtY2FzZXMtMTcNCg0KSGksDQoNClRoYW5rIHlv dSBmb3IgdGhlIHJldmlldy4gUGxlYXNlIGZpbmQgbXkgcmVzcG9uc2UgaW4gbGluZSBhcyB3ZWxs IGFzIG9uIHRoZSBnaXQgcmVwbyBbMV0uICBXRywgY28tYXV0aG9ycywgcGxlYXNlIHJldmlldyBz 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Jul 5 00:21:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F373C12024E; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 00:21:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nttv6.jp Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YnfRsj9fLWCH; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 00:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from guri.nttv6.jp (guri.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:136::140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2403012023F; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 00:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z.nttv6.jp (z.nttv6.jp [192.168.8.15]) by guri.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id BB78925F6BD; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 16:21:41 +0900 (JST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nttv6.jp; s=20180820; t=1562311301; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=xW2ACjqW+V9N2TX9AM8egcXNSr4yNaE1d/C/wp8iFek=; b=nY5I/bcvE4HPXoGd39DCo5RlCGE1lZAVSAxSlojiucOrcxI8P92gcQirmdnMCHfE8+8obt xcd4d43RfDE10Rm4DT/5RzdBKp9TDMDpRjpAuNLoq7sk7fMxDAUELvfFCVGV3OgQhO6KW/ 0gipqauZVbS8F9FdRUBNGMSc1r8+/6I= Received: from MacBook-Pro-17.local (fujiko.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:136::141]) by z.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 9DA557634E2; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 16:21:41 +0900 (JST) To: Daniel Migault , Benjamin Kaduk Cc: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases.all@ietf.org, dots References: <20190702223654.GF13810@kduck.mit.edu> From: kaname nishizuka Message-ID: <1e54ef4a-a9f3-9aff-ea30-6c65a015eb8e@nttv6.jp> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 16:21:41 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A146863A77899311324DDB2B" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 07:21:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A146863A77899311324DDB2B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Daniel, Thank you for the correction and clarification. > WG, co-authors, please review section 3.3 by Friday EOB. I've reviewed it. DOTS client/server involved was clarified and how the DDoS Orchestration usecase work is described as it was originally intended. nit: (Line 539, 540) The orchestrator implements a DOTS Client while the DDoS mitigation systems implement a DOTS Server. Client->client, Server->server thanks! Kaname Nishizuka On 2019/07/05 5:13, Daniel Migault wrote: > Hi, > > Thank you for the review. Please find my response in line as well as on the git repo [1].  WG, co-authors, please review section 3.3 by Friday EOB. > > In summary we addressed all comments, major changes are: > > a) Figure 2 with a channel from DOTS client and DOTS server with th eaddition of the following text: > """ > In some cases the communication between the enterprise DOTS client and > the DOTS server of the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider may go through > the ITP carrying the DDoS attack, which would affect the > communication. On the other hand, the communication between the DOTS > client and DOTS server may take a path that is not undergoing a DDoS > attack. > """ > > b) telemetry > > We clarified DOTS client/server involved. > > c) it was unclear to me how to address the following comment. > > >    The communication between a network administrator and the >    orchestrator is also performed using DOTS.  The network administrator >    via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the >    Orchestrator implements a DOTS server. > > nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator has a > web interface.  I think "its" is supposed to refer to something else. > > > What we are trying to say is that the network administrator sees its web interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that interface. I have not made any change to address that concern, as I do not clearly see what is confusing. > > > > Yours, > Daniel > > [1] https://github.com/dotswg/dots-use-cases/commit/e251fb8abb51ba0c68471e847037daf2e81d38aa > > > On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 6:37 PM Benjamin Kaduk > wrote: > > First off, a few housekeeping items: > > (1) This document lists seven authors, and per RFC 7322 I/the IESG needs > to specially consider this and essentially make an exception to have > more than five authors.  Can you please confirm that all listed authors > have made substantial contributions, so that I can take that to the IESG > and get it approved? > > (2) The shepherd writeup indicates that three authors (Stefan, Bob, and > Nik) have not indicated conformance with BCPs 78 and 79.  I don't think > I can issue the IETF LC until that gets straightened out, so please > confirm that we're all squared away! > > (3) Recently the IESG has been trying to exert some gentle backpressure > against publishing Informational use-cases/requirements drafts, when they > serve only as input to future protocol specifications and do not have > lasting archival value on their own.  I do see in the shepherd writeup that > the working group did reach consensus to publish this document and think > there's enough value in it to be worth publishing; I just mention this so > that people aren't surprised if the IESG evaluation comes back with > questions about whether we should be publishing the document at all. > > Other than those, the document is generally in good shape; there's just > a few substantive questions buried in the editorial nits. > > On to the section-by-section comments: > > Section 2 > >    o  DDoS Mitigation Service: designates a DDoS mitigation service >       provided to a customer and which is scoped to mitigate DDoS >       attacks.  [...] > > I don't really think that using the lowercase-'s' version to define the > uppercase-'S' version of the term is going to help anyone. > > > The text has been replaced by the following: > > * DDoS Mitigation Service: designates a service provided to a > customer to mitigate DDoS attacks.  Services usually involve Service > Level Agreement (SLA) that have to be met.  It is the responsibility of > the DDoS Service provider to instantiate the DDoS Mitigation System to > meet these SLAs. > > > > > Section 3.1 > > It's a little surprising that we have the two bullet points near the top > about the enterprise DMS acting as a DOTS client for the first kind of > service but as a DOTS server for the second kind, but then we never seem > to talk about that second kind of service again in the document. > Perhaps we should just explicitly say that it's similar to the first > kind and not covered further? > > > I agree that could be mentioned explicitly. Here is the proposed text to address that concern. > >  The two scenarios, thought different, have similar interactions between > the DOTS client and server. For the sake of simplicity, only the first > scenario will be detailed in this section. > > >    When the enterprise DMS detects an inbound DDoS attack targeting its >    resources ( e.g. servers, hosts or applications), it immediately >    begins a DDoS Mitigation. > > I'd consider clarifying that this mitigation is entirely local within > the enterprise, so that contacting the ITP in the next step is a clear > escalation. > > > To address the concern we specify that the mitigation is handled locally as well as we explicitly indicate the escalation procedure.  I believe the following text address your concern: > > When the enterprise DMS locally detects an inbound DDoS attack targeting > its resources ( e.g. servers, hosts or applications), it immediately > begins a DDoS Mitigation. > > During the course of the attack, the inbound traffic volume exceeds the > 50% threshold and the enterprise DMS escalates the DDoS mitigation.  The > enterprise DMS DOTS client signals the DOTS server on the upstream ITP > to initiate DDoS Mitigation. The DOTS server signals the DOTS client > that it can serve this request, and mitigation is initiated on the ITP > network by the ITP DMS. > > >    related information.  Once the DDoS attack has ended, or decreased to >    the certain level that the DOTS client can handle by itself, the DOTS >    server signals the enterprise DMS DOTS client that the attack has >    subsided. > > I think it's the enterprise DMS that is handling the attack, not the > DOTS client directly... > > > This is correct. This has been corrected as follows: > > Over the course of the attack, the DOTS server of the ITP periodically > informs the DOTS client on the enterprise DMS mitigation status, > statistics related to DDoS attack traffic mitigation, and related > information. Once the DDoS attack has ended, or decreased to the certain > level that the enterprise DMS can handle by itself, the DOTS server > signals the enterprise DMS DOTS client that the attack has subsided. > > >    The enterprise DMS then requests the ITP to terminate the DDoS >    Mitigation.  The DOTS server on the ITP receives this request and > > .... but this one is the DOTS client. > > > > Yes we sometime probably abused metonymy, but I agree the more specific > the better. I believe the following text is clarifying. > > The DOTS client on the enterprise DMS then requests the ITP to terminate > the DDoS Mitigation. The DOTS server on the ITP receives this request > and once the mitigation has ended, confirms the end of upstream DDoS > Mitigation to the enterprise DMS DOTS client. > > > >    o  (a) A DDoS attack is initiated against resources of a network >       organization which has deployed a DOTS-capable DMS - typically a >       DOTS client. > > We probably want to reiterate in a parenthetical "network organization > (here, the enterprise)" the terminology we're using. > > > Here is the current text: > > * (a) A DDoS attack is initiated against resources of a > network organization (here, the enterprise) which has deployed a > DOTS-capable DMS - typically a DOTS client. > > >    o  (d) The DOTS server which receives the DOTS Mitigation request >       determines that it has been configured to honor requests from the >       requesting DOTS client, and honored its DDoS Mitigation by >       orchestrating its DMS. > > nit: I think s/honored/honors/ to stay in the present tense. > > > I agree. here is the proposed text: > > * (d) The DOTS server which receives the DOTS Mitigation request > determines that it has been configured to honor requests from the > requesting DOTS client, and honors its DDoS Mitigation by orchestrating > its DMS. > > > >    o  (e) While the DDoS Mitigation is active, DOTS server regularly >       transmits DOTS DDoS Mitigation status updates to the DOTS client. > > nit: "the DOTS server" or "servers regularly transmit". > > > I agree, here is the corrected text: > * (e) While the DDoS Mitigation is active, the DOTS server > regularly transmits DOTS DDoS Mitigation status updates to the DOTS > client. > > > Section 3.2 > >    As such, this use case likely to match large enterprises or large >    data centers, but not exclusively.  [...] > > nit: "is likely" > > > This has been added as follows: > > As such, this use case is > likely to match large enterprises or large data centers, but not > exclusively. > > >    In this scenario, an Enterprise Network has entered into a pre- >    arranged DDoS mitigation assistance agreement with one or more other >    DDoS Mitigation Service Providers in order to ensure that sufficient >    DDoS mitigation capacity and/or capabilities may be activated in the >    event that a given DDoS attack threatens to overwhelm the ability of >    a given DMS to mitigate the attack on its own. > > We could perhaps say "overwhelm the ability of the enterprise's or any > other given DMS" since in most cases the enterprise DMS is the one at > risk of first being overwhelmed. > > > I agree that is better. Here is the modified text: > > In this scenario, an Enterprise Network has entered into a pre-arranged > DDoS mitigation assistance agreement with one or more other DDoS > Mitigation Service Providers in order to ensure that sufficient DDoS > mitigation capacity and/or capabilities may be activated in the event > that a given DDoS attack threatens to overwhelm the ability of the > enterprise's or any other given DMS to mitigate the attack on its own. > > > Is the fact that the C<-->S DOTS traffic does not go through the ITP in > Figure 3 an intentional change from Figure 2 (in that they are expected > to be communicating "out of band" or not through the enterprise's normal > transit)?  Some readers might see this and get confused if this > communication is still supposed to be going along the regular transit > path. > > > The intention was to indicate the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider is not the upstream ITP and thus communication MAY have to transit through the ITP.  I understand from your comment that it might be interpreted as the communication MUST go through the ITP. > > I propose to have the DMS communicating directly via a distinct channel and mention explicitly that the DOTS channel MAY transit via the ITP or may use a dedicated path. > > Here is the updated figure and the additional text: > >        +------------------+        +------------------+ >        | Enterprise       |        | Upstream         | >        | Network          |        | Internet Transit | >        |                  |        | Provider         | >        |      +--------+  |        |             DDoS Attack >        |      | DDoS   |  | <================================= >        |      | Target |  | <================================= >        |      +--------+  |        |                  | >        |                  |        |                  | >        |                  |        +------------------+ >        |                  | >        |                  |        +------------------+ >        |                  |        | DDoS Mitigation  | >        |                  |        | Service Provider | >        |                  |        |                  | >        |  +------------+  |        |  +------------+  | >        |  | DDoS       |<------------>| DDoS       |  | >        |  | Mitigation |C |        | S| Mitigation |  | >        |  | System     |  |        |  | System     |  | >        |  +------------+  |        |  +------------+  | >        +------------------+        +------------------+ > >            * C is for DOTS client functionality >            * S is for DOTS server functionality > >        Figure 2: DDoS Mitigation between an Enterprise Network and Third >                  Party DDoS Mitigation Service Provider > > [...] > > In some cases the communication between the enterprise DOTS client and > the DOTS server of the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider may go through > the ITP carrying the DDoS attack, which would affect the > communication. On the other hand, the communication between the DOTS > client and DOTS server may take a path that is not undergoing a DDoS > attack. > > > Section 3.3 > >    In this use case, one or more DDoS telemetry systems or monitoring >    devices monitor a network - typically an ISP network, an Enterprise >    network, or a data center.  Upon detection of a DDoS attack, these >    DDoS telemetry systems alert an orchestrator in charge of >    coordinating the various DMS within the domain.  [...] > > nit: do we have a standard plural form for "DMS"?  (Is it just "DMS"?) > > > Seems that DMS's is more appropriated. This has been changed. > > Upon detection of a DDoS attack, these DDoS > telemetry systems alert an orchestrator in charge of coordinating the > various DMS's within the domain. > > > >    ITP.  DDoS Mitigation System selection and DDoS Mitigation technique >    may depends on the type of DDoS attack.  In some case, a manual > > nit: "techniques" plural > > > Corrected: > > DDoS Mitigation System selection and DDoS Mitigation techniques may > depends on the type of DDoS attack. > > >    The communication between a network administrator and the >    orchestrator is also performed using DOTS.  The network administrator >    via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the >    Orchestrator implements a DOTS server. > > nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator has a > web interface.  I think "its" is supposed to refer to something else. > > > What we are trying to say is that the network administrator sees its web interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that interface. I have not made any change to address that concern, as I do not clearly see what is confusing. > > > nit: Figure 4 lists "DDoS mitigation systems" in both the interprise and > the ITP, but only the enterprise side has a "stack" of boxes to indicate > there is more than one. > >   > Both have two DMS's now. > > > > > >    These systems are configured so that when an event or some >    measurement indicators reach a predefined level to send DOTS >    mitigation request to the orchestrator.  The DOTS mitigation request > > nit: the grammar here is a bit off; I think s/to send DOTS mitigation > request/they send a DOTS mitigation request/ would fix it. > > > Thanks. This has been corrected accordingly: > > These systems are configured so that when an event or some measurement > indicators reach a predefined level they send a DOTS mitigation request > to the orchestrator. > > > >    Upon receipt of the DOTS mitigation request from the DDoS telemetry >    system, the orchestrator responds with an acknowledgment, to avoid >    retransmission of the request for mitigation.  The orchestrator may >    begin collecting additional fined grain and specific information from > > nit: "fine-grained" > >    and provide an analysis of the event.  Eventually, the orchestrator >    may ask additional information to the DDoS telemetry system, however, >    the collection of these information is out of scope. > > nit: s/ask additional information to/ask for additional information > from/ > nit: semicolon before "however" instead of comma > nit: "this information" > > > Thanks for the nits. All have been addressed in the text below: > > The orchestrator may > begin collecting additional fine-grained and specific information from > various  DDoS telemetry systems in order to correlate the measurements > and provide an analysis of the event. Eventually, the orchestrator may > ask for additional information from the DDoS telemetry system; however, > the collection of this information is out of scope. > > > >    Upon receiving a request to mitigate a DDoS attack performed over a >    target, the orchestrator, may evaluate the volumetry of the attack as > > nit: no comma after "the orchestrator" > >    well as the value that represent the target.  The orchestrator may > > nit: "the value that the target represents" > > > The text has been corrected as follows: > Upon receiving a request to mitigate a DDoS attack performed over a > target, the orchestrator may evaluate the volumetry of the attack as > well as the value that the target represents. > > >                           When DDoS Mitigation is requested, the status >    indicates the DDoS Mitigation is starting while not effective.  The >    DOTS client of the orchestrator will later be notified that the DDoS >    Mitigation is effective. > > I'm not entirely sure what this last sentence is trying to say. > > > Initially, I believe we wanted to distinguish between accepting the mitigation and having the mitigation effective. I do not think that  necessary here as such details are provided in section 3.1. > > The orchestrator requests a DDoS Mitigation to the selected > DDoS mitigation systems via its DOTS client, as described in Section > 3.1. > > >    Orchestration of the DDoS mitigation systems works similarly as >    described in Section 3.1.  The orchestrator indicates with its status >    whether the DDoS Mitigation is effective. > > Is this intended to specifically refer to the external (ITP) DMS? > > > We did not see any differences between the DMS. I believe that the text above clarify the DMS is the one selected by the orchestrator. > > > Also, my understanding is that for this interaction the orchestrator is > acting as a DOTS client, but the rest of the document only has status > messages being generated by the DOTS server.  Am I confused? > > > The orchestrator got DOTS client and DOTS servers. I updated the section to clarify which entity is involved in term of DOTS. I believe that clarifies the concern. > > > > Section 4 > > It feels incomplete to list three primary attacks but only discuss > mitigations for two of them.  Perhaps "preconfigured mitigation steps to > take on the loss of keepalive traffic can partially mitigate signal > blocking, but in general it is impossible to comprehensively defend > against an attacker that can selectively block any or all traffic". > > > Just added this sentence. > > > Section 6 > > Is Med's name spelled correctly? > > > Now it is spelt correctly! Thanks. > > > > Thanks, > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > --------------A146863A77899311324DDB2B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Daniel,

Thank you for the correction and clarification.

> WG, co-authors, please review section 3.3 by Friday EOB.
I've reviewed it.
DOTS client/server involved was clarified and how the DDoS Orchestration usecase work is described as it was originally intended.

nit: (Line 539, 540)
The orchestrator implements a DOTS Client while the DDoS mitigation systems implement a DOTS Server.
Client->client, Server->server

thanks!
Kaname Nishizuka

On 2019/07/05 5:13, Daniel Migault wrote:
Hi, 

Thank you for the review. Please find my response in line as well as on the git repo [1].  WG, co-authors, please review section 3.3 by Friday EOB. 

In summary we addressed all comments, major changes are:

a) Figure 2 with a channel from DOTS client and DOTS server with th eaddition of the following text:
"""
In some cases the communication between the enterprise DOTS client and
the DOTS server of the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider may go through
the ITP carrying the DDoS attack, which would affect the
communication. On the other hand, the communication between the DOTS
client and DOTS server may take a path that is not undergoing a DDoS
attack.
"""

b) telemetry 

We clarified DOTS client/server involved.

c) it was unclear to me how to address the following comment.


   The communication between a network administrator and the
   orchestrator is also performed using DOTS.  The network administrator
   via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the
   Orchestrator implements a DOTS server.

nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator has a
web interface.  I think "its" is supposed to refer to something else.

<mglt>
What we are trying to say is that the network administrator sees its web interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that interface. I have not made any change to address that concern, as I do not clearly see what is confusing.  
</mglt>


Yours, 
Daniel



On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 6:37 PM Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
First off, a few housekeeping items:

(1) This document lists seven authors, and per RFC 7322 I/the IESG needs
to specially consider this and essentially make an exception to have
more than five authors.  Can you please confirm that all listed authors
have made substantial contributions, so that I can take that to the IESG
and get it approved?

(2) The shepherd writeup indicates that three authors (Stefan, Bob, and
Nik) have not indicated conformance with BCPs 78 and 79.  I don't think
I can issue the IETF LC until that gets straightened out, so please
confirm that we're all squared away!

(3) Recently the IESG has been trying to exert some gentle backpressure
against publishing Informational use-cases/requirements drafts, when they
serve only as input to future protocol specifications and do not have
lasting archival value on their own.  I do see in the shepherd writeup that
the working group did reach consensus to publish this document and think
there's enough value in it to be worth publishing; I just mention this so
that people aren't surprised if the IESG evaluation comes back with
questions about whether we should be publishing the document at all.

Other than those, the document is generally in good shape; there's just
a few substantive questions buried in the editorial nits.

On to the section-by-section comments:

Section 2

   o  DDoS Mitigation Service: designates a DDoS mitigation service
      provided to a customer and which is scoped to mitigate DDoS
      attacks.  [...]

I don't really think that using the lowercase-'s' version to define the
uppercase-'S' version of the term is going to help anyone.
<mglt>
The text has been replaced by the following:

* DDoS Mitigation Service: designates a service provided to a
customer to mitigate DDoS attacks.  Services usually involve Service
Level Agreement (SLA) that have to be met.  It is the responsibility of
the DDoS Service provider to instantiate the DDoS Mitigation System to
meet these SLAs.

</mglt> 

Section 3.1

It's a little surprising that we have the two bullet points near the top
about the enterprise DMS acting as a DOTS client for the first kind of
service but as a DOTS server for the second kind, but then we never seem
to talk about that second kind of service again in the document.
Perhaps we should just explicitly say that it's similar to the first
kind and not covered further?

<mglt>
I agree that could be mentioned explicitly. Here is the proposed text to address that concern. 

 The two scenarios, thought different, have similar interactions between
the DOTS client and server. For the sake of simplicity, only the first
scenario will be detailed in this section.
</mglt> 

   When the enterprise DMS detects an inbound DDoS attack targeting its
   resources ( e.g. servers, hosts or applications), it immediately
   begins a DDoS Mitigation.

I'd consider clarifying that this mitigation is entirely local within
the enterprise, so that contacting the ITP in the next step is a clear
escalation.

<mglt>
To address the concern we specify that the mitigation is handled locally as well as we explicitly indicate the escalation procedure.  I believe the following text address your concern:

When the enterprise DMS locally detects an inbound DDoS attack targeting
its resources ( e.g. servers, hosts or applications), it immediately
begins a DDoS Mitigation.

During the course of the attack, the inbound traffic volume exceeds the
50% threshold and the enterprise DMS escalates the DDoS mitigation.  The
enterprise DMS DOTS client signals the DOTS server on the upstream ITP
to initiate DDoS Mitigation. The DOTS server signals the DOTS client
that it can serve this request, and mitigation is initiated on the ITP
network by the ITP DMS.
</mglt>
 
   related information.  Once the DDoS attack has ended, or decreased to
   the certain level that the DOTS client can handle by itself, the DOTS
   server signals the enterprise DMS DOTS client that the attack has
   subsided.

I think it's the enterprise DMS that is handling the attack, not the
DOTS client directly...
<mglt>
This is correct. This has been corrected as follows:

Over the course of the attack, the DOTS server of the ITP periodically
informs the DOTS client on the enterprise DMS mitigation status,
statistics related to DDoS attack traffic mitigation, and related
information. Once the DDoS attack has ended, or decreased to the certain
level that the enterprise DMS can handle by itself, the DOTS server
signals the enterprise DMS DOTS client that the attack has subsided.
</mglt> 
 
   The enterprise DMS then requests the ITP to terminate the DDoS
   Mitigation.  The DOTS server on the ITP receives this request and

.... but this one is the DOTS client.

<mglt>

Yes we sometime probably abused metonymy, but I agree the more specific
the better. I believe the following text is clarifying.

The DOTS client on the enterprise DMS then requests the ITP to terminate
the DDoS Mitigation. The DOTS server on the ITP receives this request
and once the mitigation has ended, confirms the end of upstream DDoS
Mitigation to the enterprise DMS DOTS client.

</mglt> 
   o  (a) A DDoS attack is initiated against resources of a network
      organization which has deployed a DOTS-capable DMS - typically a
      DOTS client.

We probably want to reiterate in a parenthetical "network organization
(here, the enterprise)" the terminology we're using.

<mglt>
Here is the current text:

* (a) A DDoS attack is initiated against resources of a
network organization (here, the enterprise) which has deployed a
DOTS-capable DMS - typically a DOTS client.
</mglt>
 
   o  (d) The DOTS server which receives the DOTS Mitigation request
      determines that it has been configured to honor requests from the
      requesting DOTS client, and honored its DDoS Mitigation by
      orchestrating its DMS.

nit: I think s/honored/honors/ to stay in the present tense.

<mglt>
I agree. here is the proposed text:

* (d) The DOTS server which receives the DOTS Mitigation request
determines that it has been configured to honor requests from the
requesting DOTS client, and honors its DDoS Mitigation by orchestrating
its DMS.

</mglt>
 
   o  (e) While the DDoS Mitigation is active, DOTS server regularly
      transmits DOTS DDoS Mitigation status updates to the DOTS client.

nit: "the DOTS server" or "servers regularly transmit".

<mglt>
I agree, here is the corrected text:
 
* (e) While the DDoS Mitigation is active, the DOTS server
regularly transmits DOTS DDoS Mitigation status updates to the DOTS
client.
</mglt>
 
Section 3.2

   As such, this use case likely to match large enterprises or large
   data centers, but not exclusively.  [...]

nit: "is likely"

<mglt>
This has been added as follows:

As such, this use case is
likely to match large enterprises or large data centers, but not
exclusively.
</mglt> 

   In this scenario, an Enterprise Network has entered into a pre-
   arranged DDoS mitigation assistance agreement with one or more other
   DDoS Mitigation Service Providers in order to ensure that sufficient
   DDoS mitigation capacity and/or capabilities may be activated in the
   event that a given DDoS attack threatens to overwhelm the ability of
   a given DMS to mitigate the attack on its own.

We could perhaps say "overwhelm the ability of the enterprise's or any
other given DMS" since in most cases the enterprise DMS is the one at
risk of first being overwhelmed.

<mglt>
I agree that is better. Here is the modified text:

In this scenario, an Enterprise Network has entered into a pre-arranged
DDoS mitigation assistance agreement with one or more other DDoS
Mitigation Service Providers in order to ensure that sufficient DDoS
mitigation capacity and/or capabilities may be activated in the event
that a given DDoS attack threatens to overwhelm the ability of the
enterprise's or any other given DMS to mitigate the attack on its own.
</mglt>
 
Is the fact that the C<-->S DOTS traffic does not go through the ITP in
Figure 3 an intentional change from Figure 2 (in that they are expected
to be communicating "out of band" or not through the enterprise's normal
transit)?  Some readers might see this and get confused if this
communication is still supposed to be going along the regular transit
path.

<mglt>
The intention was to indicate the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider is not the upstream ITP and thus communication MAY have to transit through the ITP.  I understand from your comment that it might be interpreted as the communication MUST go through the ITP. 

I propose to have the DMS communicating directly via a distinct channel and mention explicitly that the DOTS channel MAY transit via the ITP or may use a dedicated path.

Here is the updated figure and the additional text:

       +------------------+        +------------------+
       | Enterprise       |        | Upstream         |
       | Network          |        | Internet Transit |
       |                  |        | Provider         |
       |      +--------+  |        |             DDoS Attack
       |      | DDoS   |  | <=================================
       |      | Target |  | <=================================
       |      +--------+  |        |                  |
       |                  |        |                  |
       |                  |        +------------------+
       |                  |
       |                  |        +------------------+
       |                  |        | DDoS Mitigation  |
       |                  |        | Service Provider |
       |                  |        |                  |
       |  +------------+  |        |  +------------+  |
       |  | DDoS       |<------------>| DDoS       |  |
       |  | Mitigation |C |        | S| Mitigation |  |
       |  | System     |  |        |  | System     |  |
       |  +------------+  |        |  +------------+  |
       +------------------+        +------------------+

           * C is for DOTS client functionality
           * S is for DOTS server functionality

       Figure 2: DDoS Mitigation between an Enterprise Network and Third
                 Party DDoS Mitigation Service Provider

[...]

In some cases the communication between the enterprise DOTS client and
the DOTS server of the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider may go through
the ITP carrying the DDoS attack, which would affect the
communication. On the other hand, the communication between the DOTS
client and DOTS server may take a path that is not undergoing a DDoS
attack.
 
</mglt>
 
Section 3.3

   In this use case, one or more DDoS telemetry systems or monitoring
   devices monitor a network - typically an ISP network, an Enterprise
   network, or a data center.  Upon detection of a DDoS attack, these
   DDoS telemetry systems alert an orchestrator in charge of
   coordinating the various DMS within the domain.  [...]

nit: do we have a standard plural form for "DMS"?  (Is it just "DMS"?)

<mglt>
Seems that DMS's is more appropriated. This has been changed.

Upon detection of a DDoS attack, these DDoS
telemetry systems alert an orchestrator in charge of coordinating the
various DMS's within the domain.

</mglt>
 
   ITP.  DDoS Mitigation System selection and DDoS Mitigation technique
   may depends on the type of DDoS attack.  In some case, a manual

nit: "techniques" plural

<mglt>
Corrected:

DDoS Mitigation System selection and DDoS Mitigation techniques may
depends on the type of DDoS attack.
</mglt> 

   The communication between a network administrator and the
   orchestrator is also performed using DOTS.  The network administrator
   via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the
   Orchestrator implements a DOTS server.

nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator has a
web interface.  I think "its" is supposed to refer to something else.

<mglt>
What we are trying to say is that the network administrator sees its web interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that interface. I have not made any change to address that concern, as I do not clearly see what is confusing.  
</mglt>
 
nit: Figure 4 lists "DDoS mitigation systems" in both the interprise and
the ITP, but only the enterprise side has a "stack" of boxes to indicate
there is more than one.
 <mglt>
Both have two DMS's now.


</mglt>

   These systems are configured so that when an event or some
   measurement indicators reach a predefined level to send DOTS
   mitigation request to the orchestrator.  The DOTS mitigation request

nit: the grammar here is a bit off; I think s/to send DOTS mitigation
request/they send a DOTS mitigation request/ would fix it.

<mglt>
Thanks. This has been corrected accordingly:

These systems are configured so that when an event or some measurement
indicators reach a predefined level they send a DOTS mitigation request
to the orchestrator.

</mglt>
 
   Upon receipt of the DOTS mitigation request from the DDoS telemetry
   system, the orchestrator responds with an acknowledgment, to avoid
   retransmission of the request for mitigation.  The orchestrator may
   begin collecting additional fined grain and specific information from

nit: "fine-grained"

   and provide an analysis of the event.  Eventually, the orchestrator
   may ask additional information to the DDoS telemetry system, however,
   the collection of these information is out of scope.

nit: s/ask additional information to/ask for additional information
from/
nit: semicolon before "however" instead of comma
nit: "this information"

<mglt>
Thanks for the nits. All have been addressed in the text below:

The orchestrator may
begin collecting additional fine-grained and specific information from
various  DDoS telemetry systems in order to correlate the measurements
and provide an analysis of the event. Eventually, the orchestrator may
ask for additional information from the DDoS telemetry system; however,
the collection of this information is out of scope.

</mglt>
 
   Upon receiving a request to mitigate a DDoS attack performed over a
   target, the orchestrator, may evaluate the volumetry of the attack as

nit: no comma after "the orchestrator"

   well as the value that represent the target.  The orchestrator may

nit: "the value that the target represents"

<mglt>
The text has been corrected as follows:
Upon receiving a request to mitigate a DDoS attack performed over a
target, the orchestrator may evaluate the volumetry of the attack as
well as the value that the target represents. 
</mglt>
 
                          When DDoS Mitigation is requested, the status
   indicates the DDoS Mitigation is starting while not effective.  The
   DOTS client of the orchestrator will later be notified that the DDoS
   Mitigation is effective.

I'm not entirely sure what this last sentence is trying to say.

<mglt>
Initially, I believe we wanted to distinguish between accepting the mitigation and having the mitigation effective. I do not think that  necessary here as such details are provided in section 3.1. 

The orchestrator requests a DDoS Mitigation to the selected
DDoS mitigation systems via its DOTS client, as described in Section
3.1.
</mglt> 
   Orchestration of the DDoS mitigation systems works similarly as
   described in Section 3.1.  The orchestrator indicates with its status
   whether the DDoS Mitigation is effective.

Is this intended to specifically refer to the external (ITP) DMS?

<mglt>
We did not see any differences between the DMS. I believe that the text above clarify the DMS is the one selected by the orchestrator. 
 
</mglt>
 
Also, my understanding is that for this interaction the orchestrator is
acting as a DOTS client, but the rest of the document only has status
messages being generated by the DOTS server.  Am I confused?
 
<mglt>
The orchestrator got DOTS client and DOTS servers. I updated the section to clarify which entity is involved in term of DOTS. I believe that clarifies the concern. 

</mglt> 
Section 4

It feels incomplete to list three primary attacks but only discuss
mitigations for two of them.  Perhaps "preconfigured mitigation steps to
take on the loss of keepalive traffic can partially mitigate signal
blocking, but in general it is impossible to comprehensively defend
against an attacker that can selectively block any or all traffic".

<mglt>
Just added this sentence.
</mglt> 
Section 6

Is Med's name spelled correctly?

<mglt>
Now it is spelt correctly! Thanks. 
</mglt> 

Thanks,

Ben

_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots

--------------A146863A77899311324DDB2B-- From nobody Fri Jul 5 01:11:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D70DB120044 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 01:10:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=smyslov.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z1bDn0oPppSS for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 01:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from direct.host-care.com (direct.host-care.com [198.136.54.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8C5B1200B2 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 01:10:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=smyslov.net ; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID :Date:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID: In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Y/5hJuHUlMNH+PSbBSh8KCLpKw5pjEC3kt6FUG/park=; b=X+1AnNmbnK9UZQeQFjn+hqPphc EDAPjFs3iHw55ZsQgnTyz8Ff/UqkeSdLUXxQfWwfoWuWyWsaeeyFsK5z9tetNJZLin9EJ9NgthBCO QZnGw3xIwsMKyP3zQYV3dXWNRHQAbSo4tAkKl+jBNN1KVl3Y6RsIPFRZqAD0RLMHQgiN/k9qRMNJa Pzs6ZGdfJZLXlaJytMTvUo0aIehMqkIi391Y6V7jcpv+T0rTFq3HBIj0ugQoStRipPvCpESM5Yvgr qp7qDa8GZfa08gqsxanYcLI0wIKo/pwvItPxSTSUX/zeim4M3l1/mzzMnEd+iaH68q1dp6fxUk97a w1f86eIg==; Received: from [82.138.51.4] (port=59499 helo=buildpc) by direct.host-care.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hjJIs-0001Bu-Q4; Fri, 05 Jul 2019 04:10:47 -0400 From: "Valery Smyslov" To: Cc: "Xialiang \(Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept\)" Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 11:10:01 +0300 Message-ID: <07e801d53309$0f236dc0$2d6a4940$@smyslov.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AdUzCQs0+T1X0j0tQ7a9nYJjnBomgA== Content-Language: ru X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - direct.host-care.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - smyslov.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: direct.host-care.com: authenticated_id: valery@smyslov.net X-Authenticated-Sender: direct.host-care.com: valery@smyslov.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] DOTS WG agenda for IETF105 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 08:10:58 -0000 Hi, the final IETF105 agenda has been published with no changes regarding = the DOTS WG=20 meeting scheduled time and place. The chairs are now in a process of composing DOTS WG agenda, so if you = want to=20 make a presentation please send us a request for it, ideally before = Wednesday, July the 10th.=20 Please include an approximate duration of your presentation.=20 Just a reminder - we have a 2-hour meeting slot, so we believe there is = enough time. Regards, Frank & Valery. > Hi DOTS WG attendees, > FYI, if no any new change, our DOTS session in the IETF 105th = preliminary agenda is at 10:00-12:00 > (Wednesday Morning session I), the meeting room is--Centre Ville. >=20 > Happy to see you then~~ >=20 > B.R. > Frank >=20 >=20 > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: WGChairs = [mailto:wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 IETF Agenda > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: = 2019=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8822=E6=97=A5 6:04 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Working Group Chairs > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: IETF 105 Preliminary Agenda >=20 > The IETF 105 preliminary agenda has been posted. The final agenda will = be published on Friday, June 28, 2019. >=20 > If you would like to request a change to the preliminary agenda, = please send a message to agenda@ietf.org > and copy all relevant Area Directors. >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/agenda.html > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/agenda.txt >=20 > The plenary at IETF 105 will be split into two sections. First, a = technical plenary from 17:10 to 18:10, followed > by the administrative/operations plenary from 18:20 to 19:50. The ten = minute break in between will allow > attendees to enter or exit if they wish. >=20 > The experiment with unstructured agenda time continues at IETF 105, = with an hour and fifteen minutes each > morning. Continental breakfast will be provided in the Congress Hall = Foyer from 08:00 - 09:00. Meeting rooms > will be available for signups from 08:30 - 09:45. Regular WG sessions = will begin at 10:00. In addition, two > attendee signup rooms will be available throughout the week as usual. = Further details about how to sign up > for a meeting room will be announced shortly. >=20 > Thank you! >=20 > IETF Secretariat >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Fri Jul 5 05:23:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 159001201D6; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 05:23:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xG4XfRm0THOX; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 05:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-f51.google.com (mail-ua1-f51.google.com [209.85.222.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67D781201D7; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 05:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-f51.google.com with SMTP id z13so2130499uaa.4; Fri, 05 Jul 2019 05:23:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pwRPU+fAEf6j/TAZv7ltu74+gtRQZzDLjSYEbdeD+oM=; b=IPNFoxfH+AR1gGkkgcR2fVOcUS8enCn4EYJMMV6FvZJQr3k4lVgdTY2GppCUPqyCAW Ij8HfvPf1FL1YSi/NtKYBQm4KlnpRsTDO/q1W4XGSmhhhUEHcYSSPxcpcNNF2esV16ms 8iZDUkOFaRcn4+lIUPnKFC5m0GAKj8dd/XabBlcbaraWQdzOjZmVIdrNozdFwbxTu/Fh rjw8VgHj424BSxvvyNp1o/SyZng91jYGVTGwhVyBie1GbGxRUQZLYtm9+0OTwxD1Ncre SLSBYmU88K5fbrcn9HS+ESOMoiw6hSoiTnGo3PnvT0vTb+tZXOvT782VQ+JDbMu9vjbA Mg2g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUit3WEB307TCJ3N6d2/2rRdlaTOJqcIm61SdIANTkjk8UXcm7r zE9nsF7n8totEjjbS0UTV7l2A+XiCeXC0jMJK34= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqywcjuifH4s6KH6cOugbCd45anlVy9rSjKJEuWUh1oRpdsqHx7nGrkhmEj7CeY7CQkMYhcoWKgqKCLWx1J4+XA= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:614d:: with SMTP id w13mr1684090uan.66.1562329396298; Fri, 05 Jul 2019 05:23:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190702223654.GF13810@kduck.mit.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAC0D83@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAC0D83@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: Daniel Migault Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 08:23:05 -0400 Message-ID: To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com Cc: "draft-ietf-dots-use-cases.all@ietf.org" , dots , Benjamin Kaduk Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b04691058cee2864" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 12:23:21 -0000 --000000000000b04691058cee2864 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Med! Just merged them! Yours, Daniel On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 2:01 AM wrote: > Hi Daniel, > > > > FWIW, changes to fix some nits can be found at: > > > > https://github.com/dotswg/dots-use-cases/pull/10/files > > > > Cheers, > > Med > > > > *De :* Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Daniel Migault > *Envoy=C3=A9 :* jeudi 4 juillet 2019 22:14 > *=C3=80 :* Benjamin Kaduk > *Cc :* draft-ietf-dots-use-cases.all@ietf.org; dots > *Objet :* Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17 > > > > Hi, > > > > Thank you for the review. Please find my response in line as well as on > the git repo [1]. WG, co-authors, please review section 3.3 by Friday EO= B. > > > > In summary we addressed all comments, major changes are: > > > > a) Figure 2 with a channel from DOTS client and DOTS server with th > eaddition of the following text: > > """ > > In some cases the communication between the enterprise DOTS client and > the DOTS server of the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider may go through > the ITP carrying the DDoS attack, which would affect the > communication. On the other hand, the communication between the DOTS > client and DOTS server may take a path that is not undergoing a DDoS > attack. > > """ > > > > b) telemetry > > > > We clarified DOTS client/server involved. > > > > c) it was unclear to me how to address the following comment. > > > > > The communication between a network administrator and the > orchestrator is also performed using DOTS. The network administrator > via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the > Orchestrator implements a DOTS server. > > nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator has a > web interface. I think "its" is supposed to refer to something else. > > > > What we are trying to say is that the network administrator sees its web > interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that interface. I have not > made any change to address that concern, as I do not clearly see what is > confusing. > > > > > > > > Yours, > > Daniel > > > > [1] > https://github.com/dotswg/dots-use-cases/commit/e251fb8abb51ba0c68471e847= 037daf2e81d38aa > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 6:37 PM Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > > First off, a few housekeeping items: > > (1) This document lists seven authors, and per RFC 7322 I/the IESG needs > to specially consider this and essentially make an exception to have > more than five authors. Can you please confirm that all listed authors > have made substantial contributions, so that I can take that to the IESG > and get it approved? > > (2) The shepherd writeup indicates that three authors (Stefan, Bob, and > Nik) have not indicated conformance with BCPs 78 and 79. I don't think > I can issue the IETF LC until that gets straightened out, so please > confirm that we're all squared away! > > (3) Recently the IESG has been trying to exert some gentle backpressure > against publishing Informational use-cases/requirements drafts, when they > serve only as input to future protocol specifications and do not have > lasting archival value on their own. I do see in the shepherd writeup th= at > the working group did reach consensus to publish this document and think > there's enough value in it to be worth publishing; I just mention this so > that people aren't surprised if the IESG evaluation comes back with > questions about whether we should be publishing the document at all. > > Other than those, the document is generally in good shape; there's just > a few substantive questions buried in the editorial nits. > > On to the section-by-section comments: > > Section 2 > > o DDoS Mitigation Service: designates a DDoS mitigation service > provided to a customer and which is scoped to mitigate DDoS > attacks. [...] > > I don't really think that using the lowercase-'s' version to define the > uppercase-'S' version of the term is going to help anyone. > > > > The text has been replaced by the following: > > > > * DDoS Mitigation Service: designates a service provided to a > customer to mitigate DDoS attacks. Services usually involve Service > Level Agreement (SLA) that have to be met. It is the responsibility of > the DDoS Service provider to instantiate the DDoS Mitigation System to > meet these SLAs. > > > > > Section 3.1 > > It's a little surprising that we have the two bullet points near the top > about the enterprise DMS acting as a DOTS client for the first kind of > service but as a DOTS server for the second kind, but then we never seem > to talk about that second kind of service again in the document. > Perhaps we should just explicitly say that it's similar to the first > kind and not covered further? > > > > I agree that could be mentioned explicitly. Here is the proposed text to > address that concern. > > > > The two scenarios, thought different, have similar interactions between > > the DOTS client and server. For the sake of simplicity, only the first > scenario will be detailed in this section. > > > > > > When the enterprise DMS detects an inbound DDoS attack targeting its > resources ( e.g. servers, hosts or applications), it immediately > begins a DDoS Mitigation. > > I'd consider clarifying that this mitigation is entirely local within > the enterprise, so that contacting the ITP in the next step is a clear > escalation. > > > > To address the concern we specify that the mitigation is handled locally > as well as we explicitly indicate the escalation procedure. I believe th= e > following text address your concern: > > > > When the enterprise DMS locally detects an inbound DDoS attack targeting > its resources ( e.g. servers, hosts or applications), it immediately > begins a DDoS Mitigation. > > During the course of the attack, the inbound traffic volume exceeds the > 50% threshold and the enterprise DMS escalates the DDoS mitigation. The > enterprise DMS DOTS client signals the DOTS server on the upstream ITP > to initiate DDoS Mitigation. The DOTS server signals the DOTS client > that it can serve this request, and mitigation is initiated on the ITP > network by the ITP DMS. > > > > > > related information. Once the DDoS attack has ended, or decreased to > the certain level that the DOTS client can handle by itself, the DOTS > server signals the enterprise DMS DOTS client that the attack has > subsided. > > I think it's the enterprise DMS that is handling the attack, not the > DOTS client directly... > > > > This is correct. This has been corrected as follows: > > > > Over the course of the attack, the DOTS server of the ITP periodically > informs the DOTS client on the enterprise DMS mitigation status, > statistics related to DDoS attack traffic mitigation, and related > information. Once the DDoS attack has ended, or decreased to the certain > level that the enterprise DMS can handle by itself, the DOTS server > signals the enterprise DMS DOTS client that the attack has subsided. > > > > > > The enterprise DMS then requests the ITP to terminate the DDoS > Mitigation. The DOTS server on the ITP receives this request and > > ..... but this one is the DOTS client. > > > > > > Yes we sometime probably abused metonymy, but I agree the more specific > > the better. I believe the following text is clarifying. > > > > The DOTS client on the enterprise DMS then requests the ITP to terminate > the DDoS Mitigation. The DOTS server on the ITP receives this request > and once the mitigation has ended, confirms the end of upstream DDoS > Mitigation to the enterprise DMS DOTS client. > > > > o (a) A DDoS attack is initiated against resources of a network > organization which has deployed a DOTS-capable DMS - typically a > DOTS client. > > We probably want to reiterate in a parenthetical "network organization > (here, the enterprise)" the terminology we're using. > > > > Here is the current text: > > > > * (a) A DDoS attack is initiated against resources of a > network organization (here, the enterprise) which has deployed a > DOTS-capable DMS - typically a DOTS client. > > > > > > o (d) The DOTS server which receives the DOTS Mitigation request > determines that it has been configured to honor requests from the > requesting DOTS client, and honored its DDoS Mitigation by > orchestrating its DMS. > > nit: I think s/honored/honors/ to stay in the present tense. > > > > I agree. here is the proposed text: > > > > * (d) The DOTS server which receives the DOTS Mitigation request > determines that it has been configured to honor requests from the > requesting DOTS client, and honors its DDoS Mitigation by orchestrating > its DMS. > > > > > > o (e) While the DDoS Mitigation is active, DOTS server regularly > transmits DOTS DDoS Mitigation status updates to the DOTS client. > > nit: "the DOTS server" or "servers regularly transmit". > > > > I agree, here is the corrected text: > > > > * (e) While the DDoS Mitigation is active, the DOTS server > regularly transmits DOTS DDoS Mitigation status updates to the DOTS > client. > > > > > > Section 3.2 > > As such, this use case likely to match large enterprises or large > data centers, but not exclusively. [...] > > nit: "is likely" > > > > This has been added as follows: > > > > As such, this use case is > likely to match large enterprises or large data centers, but not > exclusively. > > > > > > In this scenario, an Enterprise Network has entered into a pre- > arranged DDoS mitigation assistance agreement with one or more other > DDoS Mitigation Service Providers in order to ensure that sufficient > DDoS mitigation capacity and/or capabilities may be activated in the > event that a given DDoS attack threatens to overwhelm the ability of > a given DMS to mitigate the attack on its own. > > We could perhaps say "overwhelm the ability of the enterprise's or any > other given DMS" since in most cases the enterprise DMS is the one at > risk of first being overwhelmed. > > > > I agree that is better. Here is the modified text: > > > > In this scenario, an Enterprise Network has entered into a pre-arranged > DDoS mitigation assistance agreement with one or more other DDoS > Mitigation Service Providers in order to ensure that sufficient DDoS > mitigation capacity and/or capabilities may be activated in the event > that a given DDoS attack threatens to overwhelm the ability of the > enterprise's or any other given DMS to mitigate the attack on its own. > > > > > > Is the fact that the C<-->S DOTS traffic does not go through the ITP in > Figure 3 an intentional change from Figure 2 (in that they are expected > to be communicating "out of band" or not through the enterprise's normal > transit)? Some readers might see this and get confused if this > communication is still supposed to be going along the regular transit > path. > > > > The intention was to indicate the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider is not > the upstream ITP and thus communication MAY have to transit through the > ITP. I understand from your comment that it might be interpreted as the > communication MUST go through the ITP. > > > > I propose to have the DMS communicating directly via a distinct channel > and mention explicitly that the DOTS channel MAY transit via the ITP or m= ay > use a dedicated path. > > > > Here is the updated figure and the additional text: > > > > +------------------+ +------------------+ > | Enterprise | | Upstream | > | Network | | Internet Transit | > | | | Provider | > | +--------+ | | DDoS Attack > | | DDoS | | <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > | | Target | | <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > | +--------+ | | | > | | | | > | | +------------------+ > | | > | | +------------------+ > | | | DDoS Mitigation | > | | | Service Provider | > | | | | > | +------------+ | | +------------+ | > | | DDoS |<------------>| DDoS | | > | | Mitigation |C | | S| Mitigation | | > | | System | | | | System | | > | +------------+ | | +------------+ | > +------------------+ +------------------+ > > * C is for DOTS client functionality > * S is for DOTS server functionality > > Figure 2: DDoS Mitigation between an Enterprise Network and Third > Party DDoS Mitigation Service Provider > > > > [...] > > > > In some cases the communication between the enterprise DOTS client and > the DOTS server of the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider may go through > the ITP carrying the DDoS attack, which would affect the > communication. On the other hand, the communication between the DOTS > client and DOTS server may take a path that is not undergoing a DDoS > attack. > > > > > > > > Section 3.3 > > In this use case, one or more DDoS telemetry systems or monitoring > devices monitor a network - typically an ISP network, an Enterprise > network, or a data center. Upon detection of a DDoS attack, these > DDoS telemetry systems alert an orchestrator in charge of > coordinating the various DMS within the domain. [...] > > nit: do we have a standard plural form for "DMS"? (Is it just "DMS"?) > > > > Seems that DMS's is more appropriated. This has been changed. > > > > Upon detection of a DDoS attack, these DDoS > telemetry systems alert an orchestrator in charge of coordinating the > various DMS's within the domain. > > > > > > > > ITP. DDoS Mitigation System selection and DDoS Mitigation technique > may depends on the type of DDoS attack. In some case, a manual > > nit: "techniques" plural > > > > Corrected: > > > > DDoS Mitigation System selection and DDoS Mitigation techniques may > depends on the type of DDoS attack. > > > > > > The communication between a network administrator and the > orchestrator is also performed using DOTS. The network administrator > via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the > Orchestrator implements a DOTS server. > > nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator has a > web interface. I think "its" is supposed to refer to something else. > > > > What we are trying to say is that the network administrator sees its web > interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that interface. I have not > made any change to address that concern, as I do not clearly see what is > confusing. > > > > > > nit: Figure 4 lists "DDoS mitigation systems" in both the interprise and > the ITP, but only the enterprise side has a "stack" of boxes to indicate > there is more than one. > > > > Both have two DMS's now. > > > > > > > > > These systems are configured so that when an event or some > measurement indicators reach a predefined level to send DOTS > mitigation request to the orchestrator. The DOTS mitigation request > > nit: the grammar here is a bit off; I think s/to send DOTS mitigation > request/they send a DOTS mitigation request/ would fix it. > > > > Thanks. This has been corrected accordingly: > > > > These systems are configured so that when an event or some measurement > indicators reach a predefined level they send a DOTS mitigation request > to the orchestrator. > > > > > > > > Upon receipt of the DOTS mitigation request from the DDoS telemetry > system, the orchestrator responds with an acknowledgment, to avoid > retransmission of the request for mitigation. The orchestrator may > begin collecting additional fined grain and specific information from > > nit: "fine-grained" > > and provide an analysis of the event. Eventually, the orchestrator > may ask additional information to the DDoS telemetry system, however, > the collection of these information is out of scope. > > nit: s/ask additional information to/ask for additional information > from/ > nit: semicolon before "however" instead of comma > nit: "this information" > > > > Thanks for the nits. All have been addressed in the text below: > > > > The orchestrator may > begin collecting additional fine-grained and specific information from > various DDoS telemetry systems in order to correlate the measurements > and provide an analysis of the event. Eventually, the orchestrator may > ask for additional information from the DDoS telemetry system; however, > the collection of this information is out of scope. > > > > > > Upon receiving a request to mitigate a DDoS attack performed over a > target, the orchestrator, may evaluate the volumetry of the attack as > > nit: no comma after "the orchestrator" > > well as the value that represent the target. The orchestrator may > > nit: "the value that the target represents" > > > > The text has been corrected as follows: > > Upon receiving a request to mitigate a DDoS attack performed over a > target, the orchestrator may evaluate the volumetry of the attack as > well as the value that the target represents. > > > > > > When DDoS Mitigation is requested, the status > indicates the DDoS Mitigation is starting while not effective. The > DOTS client of the orchestrator will later be notified that the DDoS > Mitigation is effective. > > I'm not entirely sure what this last sentence is trying to say. > > > > Initially, I believe we wanted to distinguish between accepting the > mitigation and having the mitigation effective. I do not think that > necessary here as such details are provided in section 3.1. > > > > The orchestrator requests a DDoS Mitigation to the selected > DDoS mitigation systems via its DOTS client, as described in Section > 3.1. > > > > Orchestration of the DDoS mitigation systems works similarly as > described in Section 3.1. The orchestrator indicates with its status > whether the DDoS Mitigation is effective. > > Is this intended to specifically refer to the external (ITP) DMS? > > > > We did not see any differences between the DMS. I believe that the text > above clarify the DMS is the one selected by the orchestrator. > > > > > > > > Also, my understanding is that for this interaction the orchestrator is > acting as a DOTS client, but the rest of the document only has status > messages being generated by the DOTS server. Am I confused? > > > > > The orchestrator got DOTS client and DOTS servers. I updated the section > to clarify which entity is involved in term of DOTS. I believe that > clarifies the concern. > > > > > > Section 4 > > It feels incomplete to list three primary attacks but only discuss > mitigations for two of them. Perhaps "preconfigured mitigation steps to > take on the loss of keepalive traffic can partially mitigate signal > blocking, but in general it is impossible to comprehensively defend > against an attacker that can selectively block any or all traffic". > > > > Just added this sentence. > > > > Section 6 > > Is Med's name spelled correctly? > > > > Now it is spelt correctly! Thanks. > > > > > Thanks, > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > --000000000000b04691058cee2864 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Med! Just merged them!
Yours,=C2=A0
D= aniel

On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 2:01 AM <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:

Hi Daniel,

=C2=A0

FWIW, changes to fix some nits ca= n be found at:

=C2=A0

https://github.com/dotswg/dots-use-cas= es/pull/10/files

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Med

=C2=A0

De=C2=A0: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Daniel Migault
Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0: jeudi 4 juillet 2019 22:14
=C3=80=C2=A0: Benjamin Kaduk
Cc=C2=A0: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases.all@ietf.org; dots
Objet=C2=A0: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17=

=C2=A0

Hi,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thank you for the review. Please find my response in= line as well as on the git repo [1].=C2=A0 WG, co-authors, please review s= ection 3.3 by Friday EOB.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In summary we addressed all comments, major changes = are:

=C2=A0

a) Figure 2 with a channel from DOTS client and DOTS= server with th eaddition of the following text:

"""

In some cases the communication between the enterpri= se DOTS client and
the DOTS server of the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider may go through
the ITP carrying the DDoS attack, which would affect the
communication. On the other hand, the communication between the DOTS
client and DOTS server may take a path that is not undergoing a DDoS
attack.

"""

=C2=A0

b) telemetry=C2=A0

=C2=A0

We clarified DOTS client/server involved.<= /u>

=C2=A0

c) it was unclear to me how to address the following= comment.

=C2=A0


=C2=A0 =C2=A0The communication between a network administrator and the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0orchestrator is also performed using DOTS.=C2=A0 The network a= dministrator
=C2=A0 =C2=A0via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Orchestrator implements a DOTS server.

nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator has a
web interface.=C2=A0 I think "its" is supposed to refer to someth= ing else.

<mglt>

What we are trying to say is that the network admini= strator sees its web interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that inte= rface. I have not made any change to address that concern, as I do not clea= rly see what is confusing.=C2=A0=C2=A0

</mglt>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Yours,=C2=A0

Daniel

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 6:37 PM Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrot= e:

First off, a few housekeeping items:

(1) This document lists seven authors, and per RFC 7322 I/the IESG needs to specially consider this and essentially make an exception to have
more than five authors.=C2=A0 Can you please confirm that all listed author= s
have made substantial contributions, so that I can take that to the IESG and get it approved?

(2) The shepherd writeup indicates that three authors (Stefan, Bob, and
Nik) have not indicated conformance with BCPs 78 and 79.=C2=A0 I don't = think
I can issue the IETF LC until that gets straightened out, so please
confirm that we're all squared away!

(3) Recently the IESG has been trying to exert some gentle backpressure
against publishing Informational use-cases/requirements drafts, when they serve only as input to future protocol specifications and do not have
lasting archival value on their own.=C2=A0 I do see in the shepherd writeup= that
the working group did reach consensus to publish this document and think there's enough value in it to be worth publishing; I just mention this = so
that people aren't surprised if the IESG evaluation comes back with
questions about whether we should be publishing the document at all.

Other than those, the document is generally in good shape; there's just=
a few substantive questions buried in the editorial nits.

On to the section-by-section comments:

Section 2

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 DDoS Mitigation Service: designates a DDoS mitigation = service
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 provided to a customer and which is scoped to mitigate= DDoS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attacks.=C2=A0 [...]

I don't really think that using the lowercase-'s' version to de= fine the
uppercase-'S' version of the term is going to help anyone.

<mglt>

The text has been replaced by the following:<= u>

=C2=A0

* DDoS Mitigation Servi= ce: designates a service provided to a
customer to mitigate DDoS attacks.=C2=A0 Services usually involve Service Level Agreement (SLA) that have to be met.=C2=A0 It is the responsibility o= f
the DDoS Service provider to instantiate the DDoS Mitigation System to
meet these SLAs.

</mglt>=C2=A0


Section 3.1

It's a little surprising that we have the two bullet points near the to= p
about the enterprise DMS acting as a DOTS client for the first kind of
service but as a DOTS server for the second kind, but then we never seem to talk about that second kind of service again in the document.
Perhaps we should just explicitly say that it's similar to the first kind and not covered further?

<mglt>

I agree that could be mentioned explicitly. Here is = the proposed text to address that concern.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0The two scenarios, thought different, have sim= ilar interactions between

the DOTS client and server. For the sake of simplici= ty, only the first
scenario will be detailed in this section.

</mglt>=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0When the e= nterprise DMS detects an inbound DDoS attack targeting its
=C2=A0 =C2=A0resources ( e.g. servers, hosts or applications), it immediate= ly
=C2=A0 =C2=A0begins a DDoS Mitigation.

I'd consider clarifying that this mitigation is entirely local within the enterprise, so that contacting the ITP in the next step is a clear
escalation.

<mglt>

To address the concern we specify that the mitigatio= n is handled locally as well as we explicitly indicate the escalation proce= dure.=C2=A0 I believe the following text address your concern:

=C2=A0

When the enterprise DMS locally detects an inbound D= DoS attack targeting
its resources ( e.g. servers, hosts or applications), it immediately
begins a DDoS Mitigation.

During the course of the attack, the inbound traffic volume exceeds the
50% threshold and the enterprise DMS escalates the DDoS mitigation.=C2=A0 T= he
enterprise DMS DOTS client signals the DOTS server on the upstream ITP
to initiate DDoS Mitigation. The DOTS server signals the DOTS client
that it can serve this request, and mitigation is initiated on the ITP
network by the ITP DMS.

</mglt>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0related information.=C2=A0 Once the DDo= S attack has ended, or decreased to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the certain level that the DOTS client can handle by itself, t= he DOTS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0server signals the enterprise DMS DOTS client that the attack = has
=C2=A0 =C2=A0subsided.

I think it's the enterprise DMS that is handling the attack, not the DOTS client directly...

<mglt>

This is correct. This has been corrected as follows:=

=C2=A0

Over the course of the attack, the DOTS server of th= e ITP periodically
informs the DOTS client on the enterprise DMS mitigation status,
statistics related to DDoS attack traffic mitigation, and related
information. Once the DDoS attack has ended, or decreased to the certain level that the enterprise DMS can handle by itself, the DOTS server
signals the enterprise DMS DOTS client that the attack has subsided.=

</mglt>=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The enterp= rise DMS then requests the ITP to terminate the DDoS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Mitigation.=C2=A0 The DOTS server on the ITP receives this req= uest and

..... but this one is the DOTS client.

<mglt>

=C2=A0

Yes we sometime probably abused metonymy, but I agre= e the more specific

the better. I believe the following text is clarifyi= ng.

=C2=A0

The DOTS client on the = enterprise DMS then requests the ITP to terminate
the DDoS Mitigation. The DOTS server on the ITP receives this request
and once the mitigation has ended, confirms the end of upstream DDoS
Mitigation to the enterprise DMS DOTS client.

</mglt>=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 (a= ) A DDoS attack is initiated against resources of a network
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 organization which has deployed a DOTS-capable DMS - t= ypically a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 DOTS client.

We probably want to reiterate in a parenthetical "network organization=
(here, the enterprise)" the terminology we're using.=

<mglt>

Here is the current text:

=C2=A0

* (a) A DDoS attack is initiated against resources o= f a
network organization (here, the enterprise) which has deployed a
DOTS-capable DMS - typically a DOTS client.

</mglt>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 (d= ) The DOTS server which receives the DOTS Mitigation request
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 determines that it has been configured to honor reques= ts from the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 requesting DOTS client, and honored its DDoS Mitigatio= n by
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 orchestrating its DMS.

nit: I think s/honored/honors/ to stay in the present tense.<= /p>

<mglt>

I agree. here is the proposed text:

=C2=A0

* (d) The DOTS server w= hich receives the DOTS Mitigation request
determines that it has been configured to honor requests from the
requesting DOTS client, and honors its DDoS Mitigation by orchestrating
its DMS.

</mglt>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 (e= ) While the DDoS Mitigation is active, DOTS server regularly
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transmits DOTS DDoS Mitigation status updates to the D= OTS client.

nit: "the DOTS server" or "servers regularly transmit".=

<mglt>

I agree, here is the corrected text:

=C2=A0

* (e) While the DDoS Mitigation is active, the DOTS = server
regularly transmits DOTS DDoS Mitigation status updates to the DOTS
client.

</mglt>

=C2=A0

Section 3.2

=C2=A0 =C2=A0As such, this use case likely to match large enterprises or la= rge
=C2=A0 =C2=A0data centers, but not exclusively.=C2=A0 [...]

nit: "is likely"

<mglt>

This has been added as follows:

=C2=A0

As such, this use case is
likely to match large enterprises or large data centers, but not
exclusively.

</mglt>=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0In this sc= enario, an Enterprise Network has entered into a pre-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0arranged DDoS mitigation assistance agreement with one or more= other
=C2=A0 =C2=A0DDoS Mitigation Service Providers in order to ensure that suff= icient
=C2=A0 =C2=A0DDoS mitigation capacity and/or capabilities may be activated = in the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0event that a given DDoS attack threatens to overwhelm the abil= ity of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0a given DMS to mitigate the attack on its own.

We could perhaps say "overwhelm the ability of the enterprise's or= any
other given DMS" since in most cases the enterprise DMS is the one at<= br> risk of first being overwhelmed.

<mglt>

I agree that is better. Here is the modified text:

=C2=A0

In this scenario, an Enterprise Network has entered = into a pre-arranged
DDoS mitigation assistance agreement with one or more other DDoS
Mitigation Service Providers in order to ensure that sufficient DDoS
mitigation capacity and/or capabilities may be activated in the event
that a given DDoS attack threatens to overwhelm the ability of the
enterprise's or any other given DMS to mitigate the attack on its own.<= u>

</mglt>

=C2=A0

Is the fact that the C&= lt;-->S DOTS traffic does not go through the ITP in
Figure 3 an intentional change from Figure 2 (in that they are expected
to be communicating "out of band" or not through the enterprise&#= 39;s normal
transit)?=C2=A0 Some readers might see this and get confused if this
communication is still supposed to be going along the regular transit
path.

<mglt>

The intention was to indicate the DDoS Mitigation Se= rvice Provider is not the upstream ITP and thus communication MAY have to t= ransit through the ITP.=C2=A0 I understand from your comment that it might = be interpreted as the communication MUST go through the ITP.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I propose to have the DMS communicating directly via= a distinct channel and mention explicitly that the DOTS channel MAY transi= t via the ITP or may use a dedicated path.

=C2=A0

Here is the updated figure and the additional text:<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+------------------+ =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+------------------+
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Enterprise =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Upstream =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Network =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Internet Transit |
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Provider =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 |
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--------+ =C2=A0| =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 DDoS Attack=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| DDoS =C2=A0 | =C2=A0| &l= t;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Target | =C2=A0| <=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--------+ =C2=A0| =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+------------------+
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+------------------+
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| DDoS Mitigation =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Service Provider |
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0+------------+ =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0+------------+ =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0| DDoS =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |<-------= ----->| DDoS =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0| Mitigation |C | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0| S| Mitigation | =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0| System =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0| =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0| System =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0+------------+ =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0+------------+ =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+------------------+ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= +------------------+

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* C is for DOTS client functionali= ty
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* S is for DOTS server functionali= ty

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Figure 2: DDoS Mitigation between an Enterprise = Network and Third
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Party DDoS Mi= tigation Service Provider

=C2=A0

[...]

=C2=A0

In some cases the communication between the enterpri= se DOTS client and
the DOTS server of the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider may go through
the ITP carrying the DDoS attack, which would affect the
communication. On the other hand, the communication between the DOTS
client and DOTS server may take a path that is not undergoing a DDoS
attack.

=C2=A0

</mglt>

=C2=A0

Section 3.3

=C2=A0 =C2=A0In this use case, one or more DDoS telemetry systems or monito= ring
=C2=A0 =C2=A0devices monitor a network - typically an ISP network, an Enter= prise
=C2=A0 =C2=A0network, or a data center.=C2=A0 Upon detection of a DDoS atta= ck, these
=C2=A0 =C2=A0DDoS telemetry systems alert an orchestrator in charge of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0coordinating the various DMS within the domain.=C2=A0 [...]
nit: do we have a standard plural form for "DMS"?=C2=A0 (Is it ju= st "DMS"?)

<mglt>

Seems that DMS's is more appropriated. This has = been changed.

=C2=A0

Upon detection of a DDoS attack, these DDoS
telemetry systems alert an orchestrator in charge of coordinating the
various DMS's within the domain.

=C2=A0

</mglt>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0ITP.=C2=A0= DDoS Mitigation System selection and DDoS Mitigation technique
=C2=A0 =C2=A0may depends on the type of DDoS attack.=C2=A0 In some case, a = manual

nit: "techniques" plural

<mglt>

Corrected:

=C2=A0

DDoS Mitigation System selection and DDoS Mitigation= techniques may
depends on the type of DDoS attack.

</mglt>=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The commun= ication between a network administrator and the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0orchestrator is also performed using DOTS.=C2=A0 The network a= dministrator
=C2=A0 =C2=A0via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Orchestrator implements a DOTS server.

nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator has a
web interface.=C2=A0 I think "its" is supposed to refer to someth= ing else.

<mglt>

What we are trying to say is that the network admini= strator sees its web interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that inte= rface. I have not made any change to address that concern, as I do not clea= rly see what is confusing.=C2=A0=C2=A0

</mglt>

=C2=A0

nit: Figure 4 lists "DDoS mitigation systems&qu= ot; in both the interprise and
the ITP, but only the enterprise side has a "stack" of boxes to i= ndicate
there is more than one.

=C2=A0<mglt>

Both have two DMS's now.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

</mglt>


=C2=A0 =C2=A0These systems are configured so that when an event or some
=C2=A0 =C2=A0measurement indicators reach a predefined level to send DOTS =C2=A0 =C2=A0mitigation request to the orchestrator.=C2=A0 The DOTS mitigat= ion request

nit: the grammar here is a bit off; I think s/to send DOTS mitigation
request/they send a DOTS mitigation request/ would fix it.

<mglt>

Thanks. This has been corrected accordingly:<= u>

=C2=A0

These systems are configured so that when an event o= r some measurement
indicators reach a predefined level they send a DOTS mitigation request to the orchestrator.

=C2=A0

</mglt>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Upon recei= pt of the DOTS mitigation request from the DDoS telemetry
=C2=A0 =C2=A0system, the orchestrator responds with an acknowledgment, to a= void
=C2=A0 =C2=A0retransmission of the request for mitigation.=C2=A0 The orches= trator may
=C2=A0 =C2=A0begin collecting additional fined grain and specific informati= on from

nit: "fine-grained"

=C2=A0 =C2=A0and provide an analysis of the event.=C2=A0 Eventually, the or= chestrator
=C2=A0 =C2=A0may ask additional information to the DDoS telemetry system, h= owever,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the collection of these information is out of scope.

nit: s/ask additional information to/ask for additional information
from/
nit: semicolon before "however" instead of comma
nit: "this information"

<mglt>

Thanks for the nits. All have been addressed in the = text below:

=C2=A0

The orchestrator may begin collecting additional fine-grained and specific information from
various =C2=A0DDoS telemetry systems in order to correlate the measurements=
and provide an analysis of the event. Eventually, the orchestrator may
ask for additional information from the DDoS telemetry system; however,
the collection of this information is out of scope.

</mglt>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Upon recei= ving a request to mitigate a DDoS attack performed over a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0target, the orchestrator, may evaluate the volumetry of the at= tack as

nit: no comma after "the orchestrator"

=C2=A0 =C2=A0well as the value that represent the target.=C2=A0 The orchest= rator may

nit: "the value that the target represents"

<mglt>

The text has been corrected as follows:

Upon receiving a request to mitigate a DDoS attack p= erformed over a
target, the orchestrator may evaluate the volumetry of the attack as
well as the value that the target represents.=C2=A0

</mglt>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 When = DDoS Mitigation is requested, the status
=C2=A0 =C2=A0indicates the DDoS Mitigation is starting while not effective.= =C2=A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0DOTS client of the orchestrator will later be notified that th= e DDoS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Mitigation is effective.

I'm not entirely sure what this last sentence is trying to say.<= u>

<mglt>

Initially, I believe we wanted to distinguish betwee= n accepting the mitigation and having the mitigation effective. I do not th= ink that=C2=A0 necessary here as such details are provided in section 3.1.= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

The orchestrator requests a DDoS Mitigation to the s= elected
DDoS mitigation systems via its DOTS client, as described in Section
3.1.

</mglt>=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Orchestrat= ion of the DDoS mitigation systems works similarly as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0described in Section 3.1.=C2=A0 The orchestrator indicates wit= h its status
=C2=A0 =C2=A0whether the DDoS Mitigation is effective.

Is this intended to specifically refer to the external (ITP) DMS?=

<mglt>

We did not see any differences between the DMS. I be= lieve that the text above clarify the DMS is the one selected by the orches= trator.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

</mglt>

=C2=A0

Also, my understanding is that for this interaction = the orchestrator is
acting as a DOTS client, but the rest of the document only has status
messages being generated by the DOTS server.=C2=A0 Am I confused?
=C2=A0

<mglt>

The orchestrator got DOTS client and DOTS servers. I= updated the section to clarify which entity is involved in term of DOTS. I= believe that clarifies the concern.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

</mglt>=C2=A0

Section 4

It feels incomplete to list three primary attacks but only discuss
mitigations for two of them.=C2=A0 Perhaps "preconfigured mitigation s= teps to
take on the loss of keepalive traffic can partially mitigate signal
blocking, but in general it is impossible to comprehensively defend
against an attacker that can selectively block any or all traffic".=

<mglt>

Just added this sentence.

</mglt>=C2=A0

Section 6

Is Med's name spelled correctly?

<mglt>

Now it is spelt correctly! Thanks.=C2=A0

</mglt>=C2=A0


Thanks,

Ben

_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots

_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
--000000000000b04691058cee2864-- From nobody Fri Jul 5 05:24:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F02E1201D7; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 05:24:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NXFmHmiOWTt1; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 05:24:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-f42.google.com (mail-vs1-f42.google.com [209.85.217.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6F5E1201D9; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 05:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-f42.google.com with SMTP id u3so3691702vsh.6; Fri, 05 Jul 2019 05:24:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bZagpZbFKSJ2k3qYvPvSTzPyThcp2atL302AapLxZKo=; b=L6LLmLWhbzDODfPWQ7W230CFxxh3MF3wM274PrzFtBTKhGnTjEkcDT+hvdpxM3nOaC isLhm+aXfFqLVYB1xutSSgS2/Stui6Yzet+gKvlc3vjuCEAear8EESpEodEL/pl3BdaE Os2+xWhib7hyvYtQa84kuiLfc3PmRIQC85k/BELHC510bSVnIt5N4wHdT0xCDoiEY79g NHEFsjjxHznNQvMk8RopmuedxzTIdnmoSMGww+4HCn6fbqwlCWog7JzUKBvdBiZRUYXC zSua+6DWG/f19xdRB0tP7RKrfjYV6eYLpWYu0EQc7Jd+ENE66qk3AJMQcmvomdP+Fm3n r4rg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV5dR/P621WG5iEcnvhQrjI3xxdeYBxHzSh0aoLrtAJ5oUMYkY+ rRuU5+udksizxrsIGdaJgd6sCtsfRo5xDvp4VtIfUA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyCw1iAZxMtqibg2NINy4ll8Ar1PAhg+MUNP1cbyIKT0SUzCJX+Q+n+JfVQ93sIe4fURUKOPxP7AAwRT9XIAz0= X-Received: by 2002:a67:e90c:: with SMTP id c12mr1847636vso.97.1562329441729; Fri, 05 Jul 2019 05:24:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190702223654.GF13810@kduck.mit.edu> <1e54ef4a-a9f3-9aff-ea30-6c65a015eb8e@nttv6.jp> In-Reply-To: <1e54ef4a-a9f3-9aff-ea30-6c65a015eb8e@nttv6.jp> From: Daniel Migault Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 08:23:50 -0400 Message-ID: To: kaname nishizuka Cc: Benjamin Kaduk , draft-ietf-dots-use-cases.all@ietf.org, dots Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000657eee058cee2bc8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 12:24:07 -0000 --000000000000657eee058cee2bc8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks, just pushed the update. Yours, Daniel On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 3:21 AM kaname nishizuka wrote: > Hi Daniel, > > Thank you for the correction and clarification. > > > WG, co-authors, please review section 3.3 by Friday EOB. > I've reviewed it. > DOTS client/server involved was clarified and how the DDoS Orchestration > usecase work is described as it was originally intended. > > nit: (Line 539, 540) > The orchestrator implements a DOTS Client while the DDoS mitigation > systems implement a DOTS Server. > Client->client, Server->server > > thanks! > Kaname Nishizuka > > On 2019/07/05 5:13, Daniel Migault wrote: > > Hi, > > Thank you for the review. Please find my response in line as well as on > the git repo [1]. WG, co-authors, please review section 3.3 by Friday EOB. > > In summary we addressed all comments, major changes are: > > a) Figure 2 with a channel from DOTS client and DOTS server with th > eaddition of the following text: > """ > In some cases the communication between the enterprise DOTS client and > the DOTS server of the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider may go through > the ITP carrying the DDoS attack, which would affect the > communication. On the other hand, the communication between the DOTS > client and DOTS server may take a path that is not undergoing a DDoS > attack. > """ > > b) telemetry > > We clarified DOTS client/server involved. > > c) it was unclear to me how to address the following comment. > > >> The communication between a network administrator and the >> orchestrator is also performed using DOTS. The network administrator >> via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the >> Orchestrator implements a DOTS server. >> >> nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator has a >> web interface. I think "its" is supposed to refer to something else. >> >> > What we are trying to say is that the network administrator sees its web > interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that interface. I have not > made any change to address that concern, as I do not clearly see what is > confusing. > > > > Yours, > Daniel > > [1] > https://github.com/dotswg/dots-use-cases/commit/e251fb8abb51ba0c68471e847037daf2e81d38aa > > > On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 6:37 PM Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > >> First off, a few housekeeping items: >> >> (1) This document lists seven authors, and per RFC 7322 I/the IESG needs >> to specially consider this and essentially make an exception to have >> more than five authors. Can you please confirm that all listed authors >> have made substantial contributions, so that I can take that to the IESG >> and get it approved? >> >> (2) The shepherd writeup indicates that three authors (Stefan, Bob, and >> Nik) have not indicated conformance with BCPs 78 and 79. I don't think >> I can issue the IETF LC until that gets straightened out, so please >> confirm that we're all squared away! >> >> (3) Recently the IESG has been trying to exert some gentle backpressure >> against publishing Informational use-cases/requirements drafts, when they >> serve only as input to future protocol specifications and do not have >> lasting archival value on their own. I do see in the shepherd writeup >> that >> the working group did reach consensus to publish this document and think >> there's enough value in it to be worth publishing; I just mention this so >> that people aren't surprised if the IESG evaluation comes back with >> questions about whether we should be publishing the document at all. >> >> Other than those, the document is generally in good shape; there's just >> a few substantive questions buried in the editorial nits. >> >> On to the section-by-section comments: >> >> Section 2 >> >> o DDoS Mitigation Service: designates a DDoS mitigation service >> provided to a customer and which is scoped to mitigate DDoS >> attacks. [...] >> >> I don't really think that using the lowercase-'s' version to define the >> uppercase-'S' version of the term is going to help anyone. >> > > The text has been replaced by the following: > > * DDoS Mitigation Service: designates a service provided to a > customer to mitigate DDoS attacks. Services usually involve Service > Level Agreement (SLA) that have to be met. It is the responsibility of > the DDoS Service provider to instantiate the DDoS Mitigation System to > meet these SLAs. > > > >> >> Section 3.1 >> >> It's a little surprising that we have the two bullet points near the top >> about the enterprise DMS acting as a DOTS client for the first kind of >> service but as a DOTS server for the second kind, but then we never seem >> to talk about that second kind of service again in the document. >> Perhaps we should just explicitly say that it's similar to the first >> kind and not covered further? >> >> > I agree that could be mentioned explicitly. Here is the proposed text to > address that concern. > > The two scenarios, thought different, have similar interactions between > the DOTS client and server. For the sake of simplicity, only the first > scenario will be detailed in this section. > > > When the enterprise DMS detects an inbound DDoS attack targeting its >> resources ( e.g. servers, hosts or applications), it immediately >> begins a DDoS Mitigation. >> >> I'd consider clarifying that this mitigation is entirely local within >> the enterprise, so that contacting the ITP in the next step is a clear >> escalation. >> >> > To address the concern we specify that the mitigation is handled locally > as well as we explicitly indicate the escalation procedure. I believe the > following text address your concern: > > When the enterprise DMS locally detects an inbound DDoS attack targeting > its resources ( e.g. servers, hosts or applications), it immediately > begins a DDoS Mitigation. > > During the course of the attack, the inbound traffic volume exceeds the > 50% threshold and the enterprise DMS escalates the DDoS mitigation. The > enterprise DMS DOTS client signals the DOTS server on the upstream ITP > to initiate DDoS Mitigation. The DOTS server signals the DOTS client > that it can serve this request, and mitigation is initiated on the ITP > network by the ITP DMS. > > > >> related information. Once the DDoS attack has ended, or decreased to >> the certain level that the DOTS client can handle by itself, the DOTS >> server signals the enterprise DMS DOTS client that the attack has >> subsided. >> >> I think it's the enterprise DMS that is handling the attack, not the >> DOTS client directly... >> > > This is correct. This has been corrected as follows: > > Over the course of the attack, the DOTS server of the ITP periodically > informs the DOTS client on the enterprise DMS mitigation status, > statistics related to DDoS attack traffic mitigation, and related > information. Once the DDoS attack has ended, or decreased to the certain > level that the enterprise DMS can handle by itself, the DOTS server > signals the enterprise DMS DOTS client that the attack has subsided. > > >> > > The enterprise DMS then requests the ITP to terminate the DDoS >> Mitigation. The DOTS server on the ITP receives this request and >> >> .... but this one is the DOTS client. >> >> > > Yes we sometime probably abused metonymy, but I agree the more specific > the better. I believe the following text is clarifying. > > The DOTS client on the enterprise DMS then requests the ITP to terminate > the DDoS Mitigation. The DOTS server on the ITP receives this request > and once the mitigation has ended, confirms the end of upstream DDoS > Mitigation to the enterprise DMS DOTS client. > > > >> o (a) A DDoS attack is initiated against resources of a network >> organization which has deployed a DOTS-capable DMS - typically a >> DOTS client. >> >> We probably want to reiterate in a parenthetical "network organization >> (here, the enterprise)" the terminology we're using. >> >> > Here is the current text: > > * (a) A DDoS attack is initiated against resources of a > network organization (here, the enterprise) which has deployed a > DOTS-capable DMS - typically a DOTS client. > > > >> o (d) The DOTS server which receives the DOTS Mitigation request >> determines that it has been configured to honor requests from the >> requesting DOTS client, and honored its DDoS Mitigation by >> orchestrating its DMS. >> >> nit: I think s/honored/honors/ to stay in the present tense. >> >> > I agree. here is the proposed text: > > * (d) The DOTS server which receives the DOTS Mitigation request > determines that it has been configured to honor requests from the > requesting DOTS client, and honors its DDoS Mitigation by orchestrating > its DMS. > > > > >> o (e) While the DDoS Mitigation is active, DOTS server regularly >> transmits DOTS DDoS Mitigation status updates to the DOTS client. >> >> nit: "the DOTS server" or "servers regularly transmit". >> >> > I agree, here is the corrected text: > > * (e) While the DDoS Mitigation is active, the DOTS server > regularly transmits DOTS DDoS Mitigation status updates to the DOTS > client. > > > >> Section 3.2 >> >> As such, this use case likely to match large enterprises or large >> data centers, but not exclusively. [...] >> >> nit: "is likely" >> >> > This has been added as follows: > > As such, this use case is > likely to match large enterprises or large data centers, but not > exclusively. > > > In this scenario, an Enterprise Network has entered into a pre- >> arranged DDoS mitigation assistance agreement with one or more other >> DDoS Mitigation Service Providers in order to ensure that sufficient >> DDoS mitigation capacity and/or capabilities may be activated in the >> event that a given DDoS attack threatens to overwhelm the ability of >> a given DMS to mitigate the attack on its own. >> >> We could perhaps say "overwhelm the ability of the enterprise's or any >> other given DMS" since in most cases the enterprise DMS is the one at >> risk of first being overwhelmed. >> >> > I agree that is better. Here is the modified text: > > In this scenario, an Enterprise Network has entered into a pre-arranged > DDoS mitigation assistance agreement with one or more other DDoS > Mitigation Service Providers in order to ensure that sufficient DDoS > mitigation capacity and/or capabilities may be activated in the event > that a given DDoS attack threatens to overwhelm the ability of the > enterprise's or any other given DMS to mitigate the attack on its own. > > > >> Is the fact that the C<-->S DOTS traffic does not go through the ITP in >> Figure 3 an intentional change from Figure 2 (in that they are expected >> to be communicating "out of band" or not through the enterprise's normal >> transit)? Some readers might see this and get confused if this >> communication is still supposed to be going along the regular transit >> path. >> >> > The intention was to indicate the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider is not > the upstream ITP and thus communication MAY have to transit through the > ITP. I understand from your comment that it might be interpreted as the > communication MUST go through the ITP. > > I propose to have the DMS communicating directly via a distinct channel > and mention explicitly that the DOTS channel MAY transit via the ITP or may > use a dedicated path. > > Here is the updated figure and the additional text: > > +------------------+ +------------------+ > | Enterprise | | Upstream | > | Network | | Internet Transit | > | | | Provider | > | +--------+ | | DDoS Attack > | | DDoS | | <================================= > | | Target | | <================================= > | +--------+ | | | > | | | | > | | +------------------+ > | | > | | +------------------+ > | | | DDoS Mitigation | > | | | Service Provider | > | | | | > | +------------+ | | +------------+ | > | | DDoS |<------------>| DDoS | | > | | Mitigation |C | | S| Mitigation | | > | | System | | | | System | | > | +------------+ | | +------------+ | > +------------------+ +------------------+ > > * C is for DOTS client functionality > * S is for DOTS server functionality > > Figure 2: DDoS Mitigation between an Enterprise Network and Third > Party DDoS Mitigation Service Provider > > [...] > > In some cases the communication between the enterprise DOTS client and > the DOTS server of the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider may go through > the ITP carrying the DDoS attack, which would affect the > communication. On the other hand, the communication between the DOTS > client and DOTS server may take a path that is not undergoing a DDoS > attack. > > > > >> Section 3.3 >> >> In this use case, one or more DDoS telemetry systems or monitoring >> devices monitor a network - typically an ISP network, an Enterprise >> network, or a data center. Upon detection of a DDoS attack, these >> DDoS telemetry systems alert an orchestrator in charge of >> coordinating the various DMS within the domain. [...] >> >> nit: do we have a standard plural form for "DMS"? (Is it just "DMS"?) >> >> > Seems that DMS's is more appropriated. This has been changed. > > Upon detection of a DDoS attack, these DDoS > telemetry systems alert an orchestrator in charge of coordinating the > various DMS's within the domain. > > > > >> ITP. DDoS Mitigation System selection and DDoS Mitigation technique >> may depends on the type of DDoS attack. In some case, a manual >> >> nit: "techniques" plural >> >> > Corrected: > > DDoS Mitigation System selection and DDoS Mitigation techniques may > depends on the type of DDoS attack. > > > The communication between a network administrator and the >> orchestrator is also performed using DOTS. The network administrator >> via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the >> Orchestrator implements a DOTS server. >> >> nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator has a >> web interface. I think "its" is supposed to refer to something else. >> >> > What we are trying to say is that the network administrator sees its web > interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that interface. I have not > made any change to address that concern, as I do not clearly see what is > confusing. > > > >> nit: Figure 4 lists "DDoS mitigation systems" in both the interprise and >> the ITP, but only the enterprise side has a "stack" of boxes to indicate >> there is more than one. >> > > Both have two DMS's now. > > > > >> >> These systems are configured so that when an event or some >> measurement indicators reach a predefined level to send DOTS >> mitigation request to the orchestrator. The DOTS mitigation request >> >> nit: the grammar here is a bit off; I think s/to send DOTS mitigation >> request/they send a DOTS mitigation request/ would fix it. >> >> > Thanks. This has been corrected accordingly: > > These systems are configured so that when an event or some measurement > indicators reach a predefined level they send a DOTS mitigation request > to the orchestrator. > > > > >> Upon receipt of the DOTS mitigation request from the DDoS telemetry >> system, the orchestrator responds with an acknowledgment, to avoid >> retransmission of the request for mitigation. The orchestrator may >> begin collecting additional fined grain and specific information from >> >> nit: "fine-grained" >> >> and provide an analysis of the event. Eventually, the orchestrator >> may ask additional information to the DDoS telemetry system, however, >> the collection of these information is out of scope. >> >> nit: s/ask additional information to/ask for additional information >> from/ >> nit: semicolon before "however" instead of comma >> nit: "this information" >> >> > Thanks for the nits. All have been addressed in the text below: > > The orchestrator may > begin collecting additional fine-grained and specific information from > various DDoS telemetry systems in order to correlate the measurements > and provide an analysis of the event. Eventually, the orchestrator may > ask for additional information from the DDoS telemetry system; however, > the collection of this information is out of scope. > > > > >> Upon receiving a request to mitigate a DDoS attack performed over a >> target, the orchestrator, may evaluate the volumetry of the attack as >> >> nit: no comma after "the orchestrator" >> >> well as the value that represent the target. The orchestrator may >> >> nit: "the value that the target represents" >> >> > The text has been corrected as follows: > Upon receiving a request to mitigate a DDoS attack performed over a > target, the orchestrator may evaluate the volumetry of the attack as > well as the value that the target represents. > > > >> When DDoS Mitigation is requested, the status >> indicates the DDoS Mitigation is starting while not effective. The >> DOTS client of the orchestrator will later be notified that the DDoS >> Mitigation is effective. >> >> I'm not entirely sure what this last sentence is trying to say. >> >> > Initially, I believe we wanted to distinguish between accepting the > mitigation and having the mitigation effective. I do not think that > necessary here as such details are provided in section 3.1. > > The orchestrator requests a DDoS Mitigation to the selected > DDoS mitigation systems via its DOTS client, as described in Section > 3.1. > > >> Orchestration of the DDoS mitigation systems works similarly as >> described in Section 3.1. The orchestrator indicates with its status >> whether the DDoS Mitigation is effective. >> >> Is this intended to specifically refer to the external (ITP) DMS? >> >> > We did not see any differences between the DMS. I believe that the text > above clarify the DMS is the one selected by the orchestrator. > > > > >> Also, my understanding is that for this interaction the orchestrator is >> acting as a DOTS client, but the rest of the document only has status >> messages being generated by the DOTS server. Am I confused? >> >> > > The orchestrator got DOTS client and DOTS servers. I updated the section > to clarify which entity is involved in term of DOTS. I believe that > clarifies the concern. > > > >> Section 4 >> >> It feels incomplete to list three primary attacks but only discuss >> mitigations for two of them. Perhaps "preconfigured mitigation steps to >> take on the loss of keepalive traffic can partially mitigate signal >> blocking, but in general it is impossible to comprehensively defend >> against an attacker that can selectively block any or all traffic". >> >> > Just added this sentence. > > >> Section 6 >> >> Is Med's name spelled correctly? >> >> > Now it is spelt correctly! Thanks. > > >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ben >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Dots mailing list >> Dots@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots >> > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > --000000000000657eee058cee2bc8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks, just pushed the update.
Yours,=C2=A0
Daniel

On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 3:21 AM kaname nishizuka <kaname@nttv6.jp> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
Hi Daniel,

Thank you for the correction and clarification.

> WG, co-authors, please review section 3.3 by Friday EOB.
I've reviewed it.
DOTS client/server involved was clarified and how the DDoS Orchestration usecase work is described as it was originally intended.

nit: (Line 539, 540)
The orchestrator implements a DOTS Client while the DDoS mitigation systems implement a DOTS Server.
Client->client, Server->server

thanks!
Kaname Nishizuka

On 2019/07/0= 5 5:13, Daniel Migault wrote:
=20
Hi,=C2=A0

Thank you for the review. Please find my response in line as well as on the git repo [1].=C2=A0 WG, co-authors, please revi= ew section 3.3 by Friday EOB.=C2=A0

In summary we addressed all comments, major changes are:

a) Figure 2 with a channel from DOTS client and DOTS server with th eaddition of the following text:
"""
In some cases the communication between the enterprise DOTS client and
the DOTS server of the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider may go through
the ITP carrying the DDoS attack, which would affect the
communication. On the other hand, the communication between the DOTS
client and DOTS server may take a path that is not undergoing a DDoS
attack.
"""

b) telemetry=C2=A0

We clarified DOTS client/server involved.

c) it was unclear to me how to address the following comment.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0The communication between a network administrator = and the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0orchestrator is also performed using DOTS.=C2=A0 T= he network administrator
=C2=A0 =C2=A0via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, w= hile the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Orchestrator implements a DOTS server.

nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator has a
web interface.=C2=A0 I think "its" is supposed to ref= er to something else.

<mglt>
What we are trying to say is that the network administrator sees its web interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that interface. I have not made any change to address that concern, as I do not clearly see what is confusing.=C2=A0=C2=A0
</mglt>


Yours,=C2=A0
Daniel



On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 6:37 PM Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
First off, a fe= w housekeeping items:

(1) This document lists seven authors, and per RFC 7322 I/the IESG needs
to specially consider this and essentially make an exception to have
more than five authors.=C2=A0 Can you please confirm that all listed authors
have made substantial contributions, so that I can take that to the IESG
and get it approved?

(2) The shepherd writeup indicates that three authors (Stefan, Bob, and
Nik) have not indicated conformance with BCPs 78 and 79.=C2=A0 = I don't think
I can issue the IETF LC until that gets straightened out, so please
confirm that we're all squared away!

(3) Recently the IESG has been trying to exert some gentle backpressure
against publishing Informational use-cases/requirements drafts, when they
serve only as input to future protocol specifications and do not have
lasting archival value on their own.=C2=A0 I do see in the shepherd writeup that
the working group did reach consensus to publish this document and think
there's enough value in it to be worth publishing; I just mention this so
that people aren't surprised if the IESG evaluation comes back with
questions about whether we should be publishing the document at all.

Other than those, the document is generally in good shape; there's just
a few substantive questions buried in the editorial nits.

On to the section-by-section comments:

Section 2

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 DDoS Mitigation Service: designates a DDoS= mitigation service
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 provided to a customer and which is scoped= to mitigate DDoS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attacks.=C2=A0 [...]

I don't really think that using the lowercase-'s' v= ersion to define the
uppercase-'S' version of the term is going to help anyo= ne.
<mglt>
The text has been replaced by the following:

* DDoS Mitigation Service: designates a service provided to a
customer to mitigate DDoS attacks.=C2=A0 Services usually invol= ve Service
Level Agreement (SLA) that have to be met.=C2=A0 It is the responsibility of
the DDoS Service provider to instantiate the DDoS Mitigation System to
meet these SLAs.

</mglt>=C2=A0

Section 3.1

It's a little surprising that we have the two bullet points near the top
about the enterprise DMS acting as a DOTS client for the first kind of
service but as a DOTS server for the second kind, but then we never seem
to talk about that second kind of service again in the document.
Perhaps we should just explicitly say that it's similar to the first
kind and not covered further?

<mglt>
I agree that could be mentioned explicitly. Here is the proposed text to address that concern.=C2=A0

=C2=A0The two scenarios, thought different, have similar interactions between
the DOTS client and server. For the sake of simplicity, only the first
scenario will be detailed in this section.
</mglt>=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0When the enterprise DMS detects an inbound DDoS at= tack targeting its
=C2=A0 =C2=A0resources ( e.g. servers, hosts or applications), = it immediately
=C2=A0 =C2=A0begins a DDoS Mitigation.

I'd consider clarifying that this mitigation is entirely local within
the enterprise, so that contacting the ITP in the next step is a clear
escalation.

<mglt>
To address the concern we specify that the mitigation is handled locally as well as we explicitly indicate the escalation procedure.=C2=A0 I believe the following text addres= s your concern:

When the enterprise DMS locally detects an inbound DDoS attack targeting
its resources ( e.g. servers, hosts or applications), it immediately
begins a DDoS Mitigation.

During the course of the attack, the inbound traffic volume exceeds the
50% threshold and the enterprise DMS escalates the DDoS mitigation.=C2=A0 The
enterprise DMS DOTS client signals the DOTS server on the upstream ITP
to initiate DDoS Mitigation. The DOTS server signals the DOTS client
that it can serve this request, and mitigation is initiated on the ITP
network by the ITP DMS.
</mglt>
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0related information.=C2=A0 Once the DDoS attack ha= s ended, or decreased to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the certain level that the DOTS client can handle = by itself, the DOTS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0server signals the enterprise DMS DOTS client that= the attack has
=C2=A0 =C2=A0subsided.

I think it's the enterprise DMS that is handling the attack= , not the
DOTS client directly...
<mglt>
This is correct. This has been corrected as follows:

Over the course of the attack, the DOTS server of the ITP periodically
informs the DOTS client on the enterprise DMS mitigation status,
statistics related to DDoS attack traffic mitigation, and related
information. Once the DDoS attack has ended, or decreased to the certain
level that the enterprise DMS can handle by itself, the DOTS server
signals the enterprise DMS DOTS client that the attack has subsided.
</mglt>=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The enterprise DMS then requests the ITP to termin= ate the DDoS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Mitigation.=C2=A0 The DOTS server on the ITP recei= ves this request and

.... but this one is the DOTS client.

<mglt>

Yes we sometime probably abused metonymy, but I agree the more specific
the better. I believe the following text is clarifying.

The DOTS client on the enterprise DMS then requests the ITP to terminate
the DDoS Mitigation. The DOTS server on the ITP receives this request
and once the mitigation has ended, confirms the end of upstream DDoS
Mitigation to the enterprise DMS DOTS client.

</mglt>=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 (a) A DDoS attack is initiated against res= ources of a network
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 organization which has deployed a DOTS-cap= able DMS - typically a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 DOTS client.

We probably want to reiterate in a parenthetical "network organization
(here, the enterprise)" the terminology we're using.
<mglt>
Here is the current text:

* (a) A DDoS attack is initiated against resources of a
network organization (here, the enterprise) which has deployed a
DOTS-capable DMS - typically a DOTS client.
</mglt>
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 (d) The DOTS server which receives the DOT= S Mitigation request
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 determines that it has been configured to = honor requests from the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 requesting DOTS client, and honored its DD= oS Mitigation by
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 orchestrating its DMS.

nit: I think s/honored/honors/ to stay in the present tense.
<mglt>
I agree. here is the proposed text:

* (d) The DOTS server which receives the DOTS Mitigation request
determines that it has been configured to honor requests from the
requesting DOTS client, and honors its DDoS Mitigation by orchestrating
its DMS.

</mglt>
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 (e) While the DDoS Mitigation is active, D= OTS server regularly
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transmits DOTS DDoS Mitigation status upda= tes to the DOTS client.

nit: "the DOTS server" or "servers regularly tra= nsmit".

<mglt>
I agree, here is the corrected text:
=C2=A0
* (e) While the DDoS Mitigation is active, the DOTS server
regularly transmits DOTS DDoS Mitigation status updates to the DOTS
client.
</mglt>
=C2=A0
Section 3.2

=C2=A0 =C2=A0As such, this use case likely to match large enter= prises or large
=C2=A0 =C2=A0data centers, but not exclusively.=C2=A0 [...]

nit: "is likely"

<mglt>
This has been added as follows:

As such, this use case is
likely to match large enterprises or large data centers, but not
exclusively.
</mglt>=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0In this scenario, an Enterprise Network has entere= d into a pre-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0arranged DDoS mitigation assistance agreement with= one or more other
=C2=A0 =C2=A0DDoS Mitigation Service Providers in order to ensu= re that sufficient
=C2=A0 =C2=A0DDoS mitigation capacity and/or capabilities may b= e activated in the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0event that a given DDoS attack threatens to overwh= elm the ability of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0a given DMS to mitigate the attack on its own.

We could perhaps say "overwhelm the ability of the enterprise's or any
other given DMS" since in most cases the enterprise DMS is the one at
risk of first being overwhelmed.

<mglt>
I agree that is better. Here is the modified text:

In this scenario, an Enterprise Network has entered into a pre-arranged
DDoS mitigation assistance agreement with one or more other DDoS
Mitigation Service Providers in order to ensure that sufficient DDoS
mitigation capacity and/or capabilities may be activated in the event
that a given DDoS attack threatens to overwhelm the ability of the
enterprise's or any other given DMS to mitigate the attack on its own.
</mglt>
=C2=A0
Is the fact that the C<-->S DOTS traffic does not go through the ITP in
Figure 3 an intentional change from Figure 2 (in that they are expected
to be communicating "out of band" or not through the enterprise's normal
transit)?=C2=A0 Some readers might see this and get confused if this
communication is still supposed to be going along the regular transit
path.

<mglt>
The intention was to indicate the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider is not the upstream ITP and thus communication MAY have to transit through the ITP.=C2=A0 I understand from your comment that it might be interpreted as the communication MUST go through the ITP.=C2=A0

I propose to have the DMS communicating directly via a distinct channel and mention explicitly that the DOTS channel MAY transit via the ITP or may use a dedicated path.

Here is the updated figure and the additional text:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+------------------+ =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+------------------+
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Enterprise =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Upstream =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Network =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Internet Transit |
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Provider =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--------+ =C2= =A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= DDoS Attack
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| DDoS =C2=A0 = | =C2=A0| <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Target | =C2= =A0| <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--------+ =C2= =A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+-----------------= -+
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+-----------------= -+
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| DDoS Mitigation = =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Service Provider= |
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0+------------+ =C2=A0| =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0+------------+ =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0| DDoS =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = |<------------>| DDoS =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0| Mitigation |C | =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| S| Mitigation | =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0| System =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2= =A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0| System =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0+------------+ =C2=A0| =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0+------------+ =C2=A0|
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+------------------+ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0+------------------+

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* C is for DOTS client= functionality
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* S is for DOTS server= functionality

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Figure 2: DDoS Mitigation between an= Enterprise Network and Third
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0P= arty DDoS Mitigation Service Provider

[...]

In some cases the communication between the enterprise DOTS client and
the DOTS server of the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider may go through
the ITP carrying the DDoS attack, which would affect the
communication. On the other hand, the communication between the DOTS
client and DOTS server may take a path that is not undergoing a DDoS
attack.
=C2=A0
</mglt>
=C2=A0
Section 3.3

=C2=A0 =C2=A0In this use case, one or more DDoS telemetry syste= ms or monitoring
=C2=A0 =C2=A0devices monitor a network - typically an ISP netwo= rk, an Enterprise
=C2=A0 =C2=A0network, or a data center.=C2=A0 Upon detection of= a DDoS attack, these
=C2=A0 =C2=A0DDoS telemetry systems alert an orchestrator in ch= arge of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0coordinating the various DMS within the domain.=C2= =A0 [...]

nit: do we have a standard plural form for "DMS"?=C2= =A0 (Is it just "DMS"?)

<mglt>
Seems that DMS's is more appropriated. This has been changed.

Upon detection of a DDoS attack, these DDoS
telemetry systems alert an orchestrator in charge of coordinating the
various DMS's within the domain.

</mglt>
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ITP.=C2=A0 DDoS Mitigation System selection and DD= oS Mitigation technique
=C2=A0 =C2=A0may depends on the type of DDoS attack.=C2=A0 In s= ome case, a manual

nit: "techniques" plural

<mglt>
Corrected:

DDoS Mitigation System selection and DDoS Mitigation techniques may
depends on the type of DDoS attack.
</mglt>=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The communication between a network administrator = and the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0orchestrator is also performed using DOTS.=C2=A0 T= he network administrator
=C2=A0 =C2=A0via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, w= hile the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Orchestrator implements a DOTS server.

nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator has a
web interface.=C2=A0 I think "its" is supposed to ref= er to something else.

<mglt>
What we are trying to say is that the network administrator sees its web interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that interface. I have not made any change to address that concern, as I do not clearly see what is confusing.=C2=A0=C2=A0
</mglt>
=C2=A0
nit: Figure 4 lists "DDoS mitigation systems" in both= the interprise and
the ITP, but only the enterprise side has a "stack" o= f boxes to indicate
there is more than one.
=C2=A0<mglt>
Both have two DMS's now.


</mglt>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0These systems are configured so that when an event= or some
=C2=A0 =C2=A0measurement indicators reach a predefined level to= send DOTS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0mitigation request to the orchestrator.=C2=A0 The = DOTS mitigation request

nit: the grammar here is a bit off; I think s/to send DOTS mitigation
request/they send a DOTS mitigation request/ would fix it.

<mglt>
Thanks. This has been corrected accordingly:

These systems are configured so that when an event or some measurement
indicators reach a predefined level they send a DOTS mitigation request
to the orchestrator.

</mglt>
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Upon receipt of the DOTS mitigation request from t= he DDoS telemetry
=C2=A0 =C2=A0system, the orchestrator responds with an acknowle= dgment, to avoid
=C2=A0 =C2=A0retransmission of the request for mitigation.=C2= =A0 The orchestrator may
=C2=A0 =C2=A0begin collecting additional fined grain and specif= ic information from

nit: "fine-grained"

=C2=A0 =C2=A0and provide an analysis of the event.=C2=A0 Eventu= ally, the orchestrator
=C2=A0 =C2=A0may ask additional information to the DDoS telemet= ry system, however,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the collection of these information is out of scop= e.

nit: s/ask additional information to/ask for additional information
from/
nit: semicolon before "however" instead of comma
nit: "this information"

<mglt>
Thanks for the nits. All have been addressed in the text below:

The orchestrator may
begin collecting additional fine-grained and specific information from
various =C2=A0DDoS telemetry systems in order to correlate the measurements
and provide an analysis of the event. Eventually, the orchestrator may
ask for additional information from the DDoS telemetry system; however,
the collection of this information is out of scope.

</mglt>
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Upon receiving a request to mitigate a DDoS attack performed over a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0target, the orchestrator, may evaluate the volumet= ry of the attack as

nit: no comma after "the orchestrator"

=C2=A0 =C2=A0well as the value that represent the target.=C2=A0= The orchestrator may

nit: "the value that the target represents"

<mglt>
The text has been corrected as follows:
Upon receiving a request to mitigate a DDoS attack performed over a
target, the orchestrator may evaluate the volumetry of the attack as
well as the value that the target represents.=C2=A0
</mglt>
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 When DDoS Mitigation is requested, the status
=C2=A0 =C2=A0indicates the DDoS Mitigation is starting while no= t effective.=C2=A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0DOTS client of the orchestrator will later be noti= fied that the DDoS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Mitigation is effective.

I'm not entirely sure what this last sentence is trying to say.

<mglt>
Initially, I believe we wanted to distinguish between accepting the mitigation and having the mitigation effective. I do not think that=C2=A0 necessary here as such details are provided in section 3.1.=C2=A0

The orchestrator requests a DDoS Mitigation to the selected
DDoS mitigation systems via its DOTS client, as described in Section
3.1.
</mglt>=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Orchestration of the DDoS mitigation systems works similarly as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0described in Section 3.1.=C2=A0 The orchestrator i= ndicates with its status
=C2=A0 =C2=A0whether the DDoS Mitigation is effective.

Is this intended to specifically refer to the external (ITP) DMS?

<mglt>
We did not see any differences between the DMS. I believe that the text above clarify the DMS is the one selected by the orchestrator.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
</mglt>
=C2=A0
Also, my understanding is that for this interaction the orchestrator is
acting as a DOTS client, but the rest of the document only has status
messages being generated by the DOTS server.=C2=A0 Am I confuse= d?
=C2=A0
<mglt>
The orchestrator got DOTS client and DOTS servers. I updated the section to clarify which entity is involved in term of DOTS. I believe that clarifies the concern.=C2=A0

</mglt>=C2=A0
Section 4

It feels incomplete to list three primary attacks but only discuss
mitigations for two of them.=C2=A0 Perhaps "preconfigured mitigation steps to
take on the loss of keepalive traffic can partially mitigate signal
blocking, but in general it is impossible to comprehensively defend
against an attacker that can selectively block any or all traffic".

<mglt>
Just added this sentence.
</mglt>=C2=A0
Section 6

Is Med's name spelled correctly?

<mglt>
Now it is spelt correctly! Thanks.=C2=A0
</mglt>=C2=A0

Thanks,

Ben

_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.or= g
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots=

_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
--000000000000657eee058cee2bc8-- From nobody Fri Jul 5 06:07:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B9B81200B2; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 06:07:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Va9hEy0PMech; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 06:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [23.123.122.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAB98120094; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 06:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5C262110; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 09:07:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id kRLzaTvJWJ6V; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 09:07:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lx140e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 149986210F; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 09:07:00 -0400 (EDT) To: Daniel Migault , kaname nishizuka Cc: Benjamin Kaduk , draft-ietf-dots-use-cases.all@ietf.org, dots References: <20190702223654.GF13810@kduck.mit.edu> <1e54ef4a-a9f3-9aff-ea30-6c65a015eb8e@nttv6.jp> From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <8996eb93-8ce7-657a-658b-615e5868438d@labs.htt-consult.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 09:06:59 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------13B260E11AC2CDAB857196BA" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 13:07:37 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------13B260E11AC2CDAB857196BA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry that I cannot review this until Wednesday.  Family in for the weekend and cataract surgery (2nd eye) Monday.  It is amazing how cataract surgery is 'no big deal' compared to when my parents had it done.  20 min under the knife and back in business (except for the eye drops for a week) in 24 hours. I suspect that you all caught all the nits that need to be fixed. Have a good weekend and check out the hotRFC I am helping out with. On 7/5/19 8:23 AM, Daniel Migault wrote: > Thanks, just pushed the update. > Yours, > Daniel > > On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 3:21 AM kaname nishizuka > wrote: > > Hi Daniel, > > Thank you for the correction and clarification. > > > WG, co-authors, please review section 3.3 by Friday EOB. > I've reviewed it. > DOTS client/server involved was clarified and how the DDoS > Orchestration usecase work is described as it was originally intended. > > nit: (Line 539, 540) > The orchestrator implements a DOTS Client while the DDoS > mitigation systems implement a DOTS Server. > Client->client, Server->server > > thanks! > Kaname Nishizuka > > On 2019/07/05 5:13, Daniel Migault wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Thank you for the review. Please find my response in line as well >> as on the git repo [1].  WG, co-authors, please review section >> 3.3 by Friday EOB. >> >> In summary we addressed all comments, major changes are: >> >> a) Figure 2 with a channel from DOTS client and DOTS server with >> th eaddition of the following text: >> """ >> In some cases the communication between the enterprise DOTS >> client and >> the DOTS server of the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider may go >> through >> the ITP carrying the DDoS attack, which would affect the >> communication. On the other hand, the communication between the DOTS >> client and DOTS server may take a path that is not undergoing a DDoS >> attack. >> """ >> >> b) telemetry >> >> We clarified DOTS client/server involved. >> >> c) it was unclear to me how to address the following comment. >> >> >>    The communication between a network administrator and the >>    orchestrator is also performed using DOTS.  The network >> administrator >>    via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the >>    Orchestrator implements a DOTS server. >> >> nit: as written, this is saying that the network >> administrator has a >> web interface.  I think "its" is supposed to refer to >> something else. >> >> >> What we are trying to say is that the network administrator sees >> its web interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that >> interface. I have not made any change to address that concern, as >> I do not clearly see what is confusing. >> >> >> >> Yours, >> Daniel >> >> [1] >> https://github.com/dotswg/dots-use-cases/commit/e251fb8abb51ba0c68471e847037daf2e81d38aa >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 6:37 PM Benjamin Kaduk > > wrote: >> >> First off, a few housekeeping items: >> >> (1) This document lists seven authors, and per RFC 7322 I/the >> IESG needs >> to specially consider this and essentially make an exception >> to have >> more than five authors.  Can you please confirm that all >> listed authors >> have made substantial contributions, so that I can take that >> to the IESG >> and get it approved? >> >> (2) The shepherd writeup indicates that three authors >> (Stefan, Bob, and >> Nik) have not indicated conformance with BCPs 78 and 79.  I >> don't think >> I can issue the IETF LC until that gets straightened out, so >> please >> confirm that we're all squared away! >> >> (3) Recently the IESG has been trying to exert some gentle >> backpressure >> against publishing Informational use-cases/requirements >> drafts, when they >> serve only as input to future protocol specifications and do >> not have >> lasting archival value on their own.  I do see in the >> shepherd writeup that >> the working group did reach consensus to publish this >> document and think >> there's enough value in it to be worth publishing; I just >> mention this so >> that people aren't surprised if the IESG evaluation comes >> back with >> questions about whether we should be publishing the document >> at all. >> >> Other than those, the document is generally in good shape; >> there's just >> a few substantive questions buried in the editorial nits. >> >> On to the section-by-section comments: >> >> Section 2 >> >>    o  DDoS Mitigation Service: designates a DDoS mitigation >> service >>       provided to a customer and which is scoped to mitigate DDoS >>       attacks.  [...] >> >> I don't really think that using the lowercase-'s' version to >> define the >> uppercase-'S' version of the term is going to help anyone. >> >> >> The text has been replaced by the following: >> >> * DDoS Mitigation Service: designates a service provided to a >> customer to mitigate DDoS attacks.  Services usually involve Service >> Level Agreement (SLA) that have to be met.  It is the >> responsibility of >> the DDoS Service provider to instantiate the DDoS Mitigation >> System to >> meet these SLAs. >> >> >> >> >> Section 3.1 >> >> It's a little surprising that we have the two bullet points >> near the top >> about the enterprise DMS acting as a DOTS client for the >> first kind of >> service but as a DOTS server for the second kind, but then we >> never seem >> to talk about that second kind of service again in the document. >> Perhaps we should just explicitly say that it's similar to >> the first >> kind and not covered further? >> >> >> I agree that could be mentioned explicitly. Here is the proposed >> text to address that concern. >> >>  The two scenarios, thought different, have similar interactions >> between >> the DOTS client and server. For the sake of simplicity, only the >> first >> scenario will be detailed in this section. >> >> >>    When the enterprise DMS detects an inbound DDoS attack >> targeting its >>    resources ( e.g. servers, hosts or applications), it >> immediately >>    begins a DDoS Mitigation. >> >> I'd consider clarifying that this mitigation is entirely >> local within >> the enterprise, so that contacting the ITP in the next step >> is a clear >> escalation. >> >> >> To address the concern we specify that the mitigation is handled >> locally as well as we explicitly indicate the escalation >> procedure.  I believe the following text address your concern: >> >> When the enterprise DMS locally detects an inbound DDoS attack >> targeting >> its resources ( e.g. servers, hosts or applications), it immediately >> begins a DDoS Mitigation. >> >> During the course of the attack, the inbound traffic volume >> exceeds the >> 50% threshold and the enterprise DMS escalates the DDoS >> mitigation.  The >> enterprise DMS DOTS client signals the DOTS server on the >> upstream ITP >> to initiate DDoS Mitigation. The DOTS server signals the DOTS client >> that it can serve this request, and mitigation is initiated on >> the ITP >> network by the ITP DMS. >> >> >>    related information.  Once the DDoS attack has ended, or >> decreased to >>    the certain level that the DOTS client can handle by >> itself, the DOTS >>    server signals the enterprise DMS DOTS client that the >> attack has >>    subsided. >> >> I think it's the enterprise DMS that is handling the attack, >> not the >> DOTS client directly... >> >> >> This is correct. This has been corrected as follows: >> >> Over the course of the attack, the DOTS server of the ITP >> periodically >> informs the DOTS client on the enterprise DMS mitigation status, >> statistics related to DDoS attack traffic mitigation, and related >> information. Once the DDoS attack has ended, or decreased to the >> certain >> level that the enterprise DMS can handle by itself, the DOTS server >> signals the enterprise DMS DOTS client that the attack has subsided. >> >> >>    The enterprise DMS then requests the ITP to terminate the DDoS >>    Mitigation.  The DOTS server on the ITP receives this >> request and >> >> .... but this one is the DOTS client. >> >> >> >> Yes we sometime probably abused metonymy, but I agree the more >> specific >> the better. I believe the following text is clarifying. >> >> The DOTS client on the enterprise DMS then requests the ITP to >> terminate >> the DDoS Mitigation. The DOTS server on the ITP receives this request >> and once the mitigation has ended, confirms the end of upstream DDoS >> Mitigation to the enterprise DMS DOTS client. >> >> >> >>    o  (a) A DDoS attack is initiated against resources of a >> network >>       organization which has deployed a DOTS-capable DMS - >> typically a >>       DOTS client. >> >> We probably want to reiterate in a parenthetical "network >> organization >> (here, the enterprise)" the terminology we're using. >> >> >> Here is the current text: >> >> * (a) A DDoS attack is initiated against resources of a >> network organization (here, the enterprise) which has deployed a >> DOTS-capable DMS - typically a DOTS client. >> >> >>    o  (d) The DOTS server which receives the DOTS Mitigation >> request >>       determines that it has been configured to honor >> requests from the >>       requesting DOTS client, and honored its DDoS Mitigation by >>       orchestrating its DMS. >> >> nit: I think s/honored/honors/ to stay in the present tense. >> >> >> I agree. here is the proposed text: >> >> * (d) The DOTS server which receives the DOTS Mitigation request >> determines that it has been configured to honor requests from the >> requesting DOTS client, and honors its DDoS Mitigation by >> orchestrating >> its DMS. >> >> >> >>    o  (e) While the DDoS Mitigation is active, DOTS server >> regularly >>       transmits DOTS DDoS Mitigation status updates to the >> DOTS client. >> >> nit: "the DOTS server" or "servers regularly transmit". >> >> >> I agree, here is the corrected text: >> * (e) While the DDoS Mitigation is active, the DOTS server >> regularly transmits DOTS DDoS Mitigation status updates to the DOTS >> client. >> >> >> Section 3.2 >> >>    As such, this use case likely to match large enterprises >> or large >>    data centers, but not exclusively.  [...] >> >> nit: "is likely" >> >> >> This has been added as follows: >> >> As such, this use case is >> likely to match large enterprises or large data centers, but not >> exclusively. >> >> >>    In this scenario, an Enterprise Network has entered into a >> pre- >>    arranged DDoS mitigation assistance agreement with one or >> more other >>    DDoS Mitigation Service Providers in order to ensure that >> sufficient >>    DDoS mitigation capacity and/or capabilities may be >> activated in the >>    event that a given DDoS attack threatens to overwhelm the >> ability of >>    a given DMS to mitigate the attack on its own. >> >> We could perhaps say "overwhelm the ability of the >> enterprise's or any >> other given DMS" since in most cases the enterprise DMS is >> the one at >> risk of first being overwhelmed. >> >> >> I agree that is better. Here is the modified text: >> >> In this scenario, an Enterprise Network has entered into a >> pre-arranged >> DDoS mitigation assistance agreement with one or more other DDoS >> Mitigation Service Providers in order to ensure that sufficient DDoS >> mitigation capacity and/or capabilities may be activated in the event >> that a given DDoS attack threatens to overwhelm the ability of the >> enterprise's or any other given DMS to mitigate the attack on its >> own. >> >> >> Is the fact that the C<-->S DOTS traffic does not go through >> the ITP in >> Figure 3 an intentional change from Figure 2 (in that they >> are expected >> to be communicating "out of band" or not through the >> enterprise's normal >> transit)?  Some readers might see this and get confused if this >> communication is still supposed to be going along the regular >> transit >> path. >> >> >> The intention was to indicate the DDoS Mitigation Service >> Provider is not the upstream ITP and thus communication MAY have >> to transit through the ITP. I understand from your comment that >> it might be interpreted as the communication MUST go through the >> ITP. >> >> I propose to have the DMS communicating directly via a distinct >> channel and mention explicitly that the DOTS channel MAY transit >> via the ITP or may use a dedicated path. >> >> Here is the updated figure and the additional text: >> >>        +------------------+  +------------------+ >>        | Enterprise       |        | Upstream   | >>        | Network          |        | Internet Transit | >>        |                  |        | Provider   | >>        |      +--------+  |        | DDoS Attack >>        |      | DDoS   |  | <================================= >>        |      | Target |  | <================================= >>        |      +--------+  |        |  | >>        |                  |        |  | >>        |                  |  +------------------+ >>        |                  | >>        |                  |  +------------------+ >>        |                  |        | DDoS Mitigation  | >>        |                  |        | Service Provider | >>        |                  |        |  | >>        |  +------------+  |        |  +------------+  | >>        |  | DDoS       |<------------>| DDoS     |  | >>        |  | Mitigation |C |        | S| Mitigation |  | >>        |  | System     |  |        |  | System     |  | >>        |  +------------+  |        |  +------------+  | >>        +------------------+  +------------------+ >> >>            * C is for DOTS client functionality >>            * S is for DOTS server functionality >> >>        Figure 2: DDoS Mitigation between an Enterprise Network >> and Third >>                  Party DDoS Mitigation Service Provider >> >> [...] >> >> In some cases the communication between the enterprise DOTS >> client and >> the DOTS server of the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider may go >> through >> the ITP carrying the DDoS attack, which would affect the >> communication. On the other hand, the communication between the DOTS >> client and DOTS server may take a path that is not undergoing a DDoS >> attack. >> >> >> Section 3.3 >> >>    In this use case, one or more DDoS telemetry systems or >> monitoring >>    devices monitor a network - typically an ISP network, an >> Enterprise >>    network, or a data center.  Upon detection of a DDoS >> attack, these >>    DDoS telemetry systems alert an orchestrator in charge of >>    coordinating the various DMS within the domain. [...] >> >> nit: do we have a standard plural form for "DMS"? (Is it just >> "DMS"?) >> >> >> Seems that DMS's is more appropriated. This has been changed. >> >> Upon detection of a DDoS attack, these DDoS >> telemetry systems alert an orchestrator in charge of coordinating the >> various DMS's within the domain. >> >> >> >>    ITP.  DDoS Mitigation System selection and DDoS Mitigation >> technique >>    may depends on the type of DDoS attack.  In some case, a >> manual >> >> nit: "techniques" plural >> >> >> Corrected: >> >> DDoS Mitigation System selection and DDoS Mitigation techniques may >> depends on the type of DDoS attack. >> >> >>    The communication between a network administrator and the >>    orchestrator is also performed using DOTS.  The network >> administrator >>    via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the >>    Orchestrator implements a DOTS server. >> >> nit: as written, this is saying that the network >> administrator has a >> web interface.  I think "its" is supposed to refer to >> something else. >> >> >> What we are trying to say is that the network administrator sees >> its web interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that >> interface. I have not made any change to address that concern, as >> I do not clearly see what is confusing. >> >> >> nit: Figure 4 lists "DDoS mitigation systems" in both the >> interprise and >> the ITP, but only the enterprise side has a "stack" of boxes >> to indicate >> there is more than one. >> >>   >> Both have two DMS's now. >> >> >> >> >> >>    These systems are configured so that when an event or some >>    measurement indicators reach a predefined level to send DOTS >>    mitigation request to the orchestrator.  The DOTS >> mitigation request >> >> nit: the grammar here is a bit off; I think s/to send DOTS >> mitigation >> request/they send a DOTS mitigation request/ would fix it. >> >> >> Thanks. This has been corrected accordingly: >> >> These systems are configured so that when an event or some >> measurement >> indicators reach a predefined level they send a DOTS mitigation >> request >> to the orchestrator. >> >> >> >>    Upon receipt of the DOTS mitigation request from the DDoS >> telemetry >>    system, the orchestrator responds with an acknowledgment, >> to avoid >>    retransmission of the request for mitigation. The >> orchestrator may >>    begin collecting additional fined grain and specific >> information from >> >> nit: "fine-grained" >> >>    and provide an analysis of the event. Eventually, the >> orchestrator >>    may ask additional information to the DDoS telemetry >> system, however, >>    the collection of these information is out of scope. >> >> nit: s/ask additional information to/ask for additional >> information >> from/ >> nit: semicolon before "however" instead of comma >> nit: "this information" >> >> >> Thanks for the nits. All have been addressed in the text below: >> >> The orchestrator may >> begin collecting additional fine-grained and specific information >> from >> various  DDoS telemetry systems in order to correlate the >> measurements >> and provide an analysis of the event. Eventually, the >> orchestrator may >> ask for additional information from the DDoS telemetry system; >> however, >> the collection of this information is out of scope. >> >> >> >>    Upon receiving a request to mitigate a DDoS attack >> performed over a >>    target, the orchestrator, may evaluate the volumetry of >> the attack as >> >> nit: no comma after "the orchestrator" >> >>    well as the value that represent the target.  The >> orchestrator may >> >> nit: "the value that the target represents" >> >> >> The text has been corrected as follows: >> Upon receiving a request to mitigate a DDoS attack performed over a >> target, the orchestrator may evaluate the volumetry of the attack as >> well as the value that the target represents. >> >> >>           When DDoS Mitigation is requested, the status >>    indicates the DDoS Mitigation is starting while not >> effective.  The >>    DOTS client of the orchestrator will later be notified >> that the DDoS >>    Mitigation is effective. >> >> I'm not entirely sure what this last sentence is trying to say. >> >> >> Initially, I believe we wanted to distinguish between accepting >> the mitigation and having the mitigation effective. I do not >> think that  necessary here as such details are provided in >> section 3.1. >> >> The orchestrator requests a DDoS Mitigation to the selected >> DDoS mitigation systems via its DOTS client, as described in Section >> 3.1. >> >> >>    Orchestration of the DDoS mitigation systems works >> similarly as >>    described in Section 3.1.  The orchestrator indicates with >> its status >>    whether the DDoS Mitigation is effective. >> >> Is this intended to specifically refer to the external (ITP) DMS? >> >> >> We did not see any differences between the DMS. I believe that >> the text above clarify the DMS is the one selected by the >> orchestrator. >> >> >> Also, my understanding is that for this interaction the >> orchestrator is >> acting as a DOTS client, but the rest of the document only >> has status >> messages being generated by the DOTS server.  Am I confused? >> >> >> The orchestrator got DOTS client and DOTS servers. I updated the >> section to clarify which entity is involved in term of DOTS. I >> believe that clarifies the concern. >> >> >> >> Section 4 >> >> It feels incomplete to list three primary attacks but only >> discuss >> mitigations for two of them.  Perhaps "preconfigured >> mitigation steps to >> take on the loss of keepalive traffic can partially mitigate >> signal >> blocking, but in general it is impossible to comprehensively >> defend >> against an attacker that can selectively block any or all >> traffic". >> >> >> Just added this sentence. >> >> >> Section 6 >> >> Is Med's name spelled correctly? >> >> >> Now it is spelt correctly! Thanks. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ben >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Dots mailing list >> Dots@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots >> > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > -- Standard Robert Moskowitz Owner HTT Consulting C:248-219-2059 F:248-968-2824 E:rgm@labs.htt-consult.com There's no limit to what can be accomplished if it doesn't matter who gets the credit --------------13B260E11AC2CDAB857196BA Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry that I cannot review this until Wednesday.  Family in for the weekend and cataract surgery (2nd eye) Monday.  It is amazing how cataract surgery is 'no big deal' compared to when my parents had it done.  20 min under the knife and back in business (except for the eye drops for a week) in 24 hours.

I suspect that you all caught all the nits that need to be fixed.

Have a good weekend and check out the hotRFC I am helping out with.

On 7/5/19 8:23 AM, Daniel Migault wrote:
Thanks, just pushed the update.
Yours, 
Daniel

On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 3:21 AM kaname nishizuka <kaname@nttv6.jp> wrote:
Hi Daniel,

Thank you for the correction and clarification.

> WG, co-authors, please review section 3.3 by Friday EOB.
I've reviewed it.
DOTS client/server involved was clarified and how the DDoS Orchestration usecase work is described as it was originally intended.

nit: (Line 539, 540)
The orchestrator implements a DOTS Client while the DDoS mitigation systems implement a DOTS Server.
Client->client, Server->server

thanks!
Kaname Nishizuka

On 2019/07/05 5:13, Daniel Migault wrote:
Hi, 

Thank you for the review. Please find my response in line as well as on the git repo [1].  WG, co-authors, please review section 3.3 by Friday EOB. 

In summary we addressed all comments, major changes are:

a) Figure 2 with a channel from DOTS client and DOTS server with th eaddition of the following text:
"""
In some cases the communication between the enterprise DOTS client and
the DOTS server of the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider may go through
the ITP carrying the DDoS attack, which would affect the
communication. On the other hand, the communication between the DOTS
client and DOTS server may take a path that is not undergoing a DDoS
attack.
"""

b) telemetry 

We clarified DOTS client/server involved.

c) it was unclear to me how to address the following comment.


   The communication between a network administrator and the
   orchestrator is also performed using DOTS.  The network administrator
   via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the
   Orchestrator implements a DOTS server.

nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator has a
web interface.  I think "its" is supposed to refer to something else.

<mglt>
What we are trying to say is that the network administrator sees its web interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that interface. I have not made any change to address that concern, as I do not clearly see what is confusing.  
</mglt>


Yours, 
Daniel



On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 6:37 PM Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
First off, a few housekeeping items:

(1) This document lists seven authors, and per RFC 7322 I/the IESG needs
to specially consider this and essentially make an exception to have
more than five authors.  Can you please confirm that all listed authors
have made substantial contributions, so that I can take that to the IESG
and get it approved?

(2) The shepherd writeup indicates that three authors (Stefan, Bob, and
Nik) have not indicated conformance with BCPs 78 and 79.  I don't think
I can issue the IETF LC until that gets straightened out, so please
confirm that we're all squared away!

(3) Recently the IESG has been trying to exert some gentle backpressure
against publishing Informational use-cases/requirements drafts, when they
serve only as input to future protocol specifications and do not have
lasting archival value on their own.  I do see in the shepherd writeup that
the working group did reach consensus to publish this document and think
there's enough value in it to be worth publishing; I just mention this so
that people aren't surprised if the IESG evaluation comes back with
questions about whether we should be publishing the document at all.

Other than those, the document is generally in good shape; there's just
a few substantive questions buried in the editorial nits.

On to the section-by-section comments:

Section 2

   o  DDoS Mitigation Service: designates a DDoS mitigation service
      provided to a customer and which is scoped to mitigate DDoS
      attacks.  [...]

I don't really think that using the lowercase-'s' version to define the
uppercase-'S' version of the term is going to help anyone.
<mglt>
The text has been replaced by the following:

* DDoS Mitigation Service: designates a service provided to a
customer to mitigate DDoS attacks.  Services usually involve Service
Level Agreement (SLA) that have to be met.  It is the responsibility of
the DDoS Service provider to instantiate the DDoS Mitigation System to
meet these SLAs.

</mglt> 

Section 3.1

It's a little surprising that we have the two bullet points near the top
about the enterprise DMS acting as a DOTS client for the first kind of
service but as a DOTS server for the second kind, but then we never seem
to talk about that second kind of service again in the document.
Perhaps we should just explicitly say that it's similar to the first
kind and not covered further?

<mglt>
I agree that could be mentioned explicitly. Here is the proposed text to address that concern. 

 The two scenarios, thought different, have similar interactions between
the DOTS client and server. For the sake of simplicity, only the first
scenario will be detailed in this section.
</mglt> 

   When the enterprise DMS detects an inbound DDoS attack targeting its
   resources ( e.g. servers, hosts or applications), it immediately
   begins a DDoS Mitigation.

I'd consider clarifying that this mitigation is entirely local within
the enterprise, so that contacting the ITP in the next step is a clear
escalation.

<mglt>
To address the concern we specify that the mitigation is handled locally as well as we explicitly indicate the escalation procedure.  I believe the following text address your concern:

When the enterprise DMS locally detects an inbound DDoS attack targeting
its resources ( e.g. servers, hosts or applications), it immediately
begins a DDoS Mitigation.

During the course of the attack, the inbound traffic volume exceeds the
50% threshold and the enterprise DMS escalates the DDoS mitigation.  The
enterprise DMS DOTS client signals the DOTS server on the upstream ITP
to initiate DDoS Mitigation. The DOTS server signals the DOTS client
that it can serve this request, and mitigation is initiated on the ITP
network by the ITP DMS.
</mglt>
 
   related information.  Once the DDoS attack has ended, or decreased to
   the certain level that the DOTS client can handle by itself, the DOTS
   server signals the enterprise DMS DOTS client that the attack has
   subsided.

I think it's the enterprise DMS that is handling the attack, not the
DOTS client directly...
<mglt>
This is correct. This has been corrected as follows:

Over the course of the attack, the DOTS server of the ITP periodically
informs the DOTS client on the enterprise DMS mitigation status,
statistics related to DDoS attack traffic mitigation, and related
information. Once the DDoS attack has ended, or decreased to the certain
level that the enterprise DMS can handle by itself, the DOTS server
signals the enterprise DMS DOTS client that the attack has subsided.
</mglt> 
 
   The enterprise DMS then requests the ITP to terminate the DDoS
   Mitigation.  The DOTS server on the ITP receives this request and

.... but this one is the DOTS client.

<mglt>

Yes we sometime probably abused metonymy, but I agree the more specific
the better. I believe the following text is clarifying.

The DOTS client on the enterprise DMS then requests the ITP to terminate
the DDoS Mitigation. The DOTS server on the ITP receives this request
and once the mitigation has ended, confirms the end of upstream DDoS
Mitigation to the enterprise DMS DOTS client.

</mglt> 
   o  (a) A DDoS attack is initiated against resources of a network
      organization which has deployed a DOTS-capable DMS - typically a
      DOTS client.

We probably want to reiterate in a parenthetical "network organization
(here, the enterprise)" the terminology we're using.

<mglt>
Here is the current text:

* (a) A DDoS attack is initiated against resources of a
network organization (here, the enterprise) which has deployed a
DOTS-capable DMS - typically a DOTS client.
</mglt>
 
   o  (d) The DOTS server which receives the DOTS Mitigation request
      determines that it has been configured to honor requests from the
      requesting DOTS client, and honored its DDoS Mitigation by
      orchestrating its DMS.

nit: I think s/honored/honors/ to stay in the present tense.

<mglt>
I agree. here is the proposed text:

* (d) The DOTS server which receives the DOTS Mitigation request
determines that it has been configured to honor requests from the
requesting DOTS client, and honors its DDoS Mitigation by orchestrating
its DMS.

</mglt>
 
   o  (e) While the DDoS Mitigation is active, DOTS server regularly
      transmits DOTS DDoS Mitigation status updates to the DOTS client.

nit: "the DOTS server" or "servers regularly transmit".

<mglt>
I agree, here is the corrected text:
 
* (e) While the DDoS Mitigation is active, the DOTS server
regularly transmits DOTS DDoS Mitigation status updates to the DOTS
client.
</mglt>
 
Section 3.2

   As such, this use case likely to match large enterprises or large
   data centers, but not exclusively.  [...]

nit: "is likely"

<mglt>
This has been added as follows:

As such, this use case is
likely to match large enterprises or large data centers, but not
exclusively.
</mglt> 

   In this scenario, an Enterprise Network has entered into a pre-
   arranged DDoS mitigation assistance agreement with one or more other
   DDoS Mitigation Service Providers in order to ensure that sufficient
   DDoS mitigation capacity and/or capabilities may be activated in the
   event that a given DDoS attack threatens to overwhelm the ability of
   a given DMS to mitigate the attack on its own.

We could perhaps say "overwhelm the ability of the enterprise's or any
other given DMS" since in most cases the enterprise DMS is the one at
risk of first being overwhelmed.

<mglt>
I agree that is better. Here is the modified text:

In this scenario, an Enterprise Network has entered into a pre-arranged
DDoS mitigation assistance agreement with one or more other DDoS
Mitigation Service Providers in order to ensure that sufficient DDoS
mitigation capacity and/or capabilities may be activated in the event
that a given DDoS attack threatens to overwhelm the ability of the
enterprise's or any other given DMS to mitigate the attack on its own.
</mglt>
 
Is the fact that the C<-->S DOTS traffic does not go through the ITP in
Figure 3 an intentional change from Figure 2 (in that they are expected
to be communicating "out of band" or not through the enterprise's normal
transit)?  Some readers might see this and get confused if this
communication is still supposed to be going along the regular transit
path.

<mglt>
The intention was to indicate the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider is not the upstream ITP and thus communication MAY have to transit through the ITP.  I understand from your comment that it might be interpreted as the communication MUST go through the ITP. 

I propose to have the DMS communicating directly via a distinct channel and mention explicitly that the DOTS channel MAY transit via the ITP or may use a dedicated path.

Here is the updated figure and the additional text:

       +------------------+        +------------------+
       | Enterprise       |        | Upstream         |
       | Network          |        | Internet Transit |
       |                  |        | Provider         |
       |      +--------+  |        |             DDoS Attack
       |      | DDoS   |  | <=================================
       |      | Target |  | <=================================
       |      +--------+  |        |                  |
       |                  |        |                  |
       |                  |        +------------------+
       |                  |
       |                  |        +------------------+
       |                  |        | DDoS Mitigation  |
       |                  |        | Service Provider |
       |                  |        |                  |
       |  +------------+  |        |  +------------+  |
       |  | DDoS       |<------------>| DDoS       |  |
       |  | Mitigation |C |        | S| Mitigation |  |
       |  | System     |  |        |  | System     |  |
       |  +------------+  |        |  +------------+  |
       +------------------+        +------------------+

           * C is for DOTS client functionality
           * S is for DOTS server functionality

       Figure 2: DDoS Mitigation between an Enterprise Network and Third
                 Party DDoS Mitigation Service Provider

[...]

In some cases the communication between the enterprise DOTS client and
the DOTS server of the DDoS Mitigation Service Provider may go through
the ITP carrying the DDoS attack, which would affect the
communication. On the other hand, the communication between the DOTS
client and DOTS server may take a path that is not undergoing a DDoS
attack.
 
</mglt>
 
Section 3.3

   In this use case, one or more DDoS telemetry systems or monitoring
   devices monitor a network - typically an ISP network, an Enterprise
   network, or a data center.  Upon detection of a DDoS attack, these
   DDoS telemetry systems alert an orchestrator in charge of
   coordinating the various DMS within the domain.  [...]

nit: do we have a standard plural form for "DMS"?  (Is it just "DMS"?)

<mglt>
Seems that DMS's is more appropriated. This has been changed.

Upon detection of a DDoS attack, these DDoS
telemetry systems alert an orchestrator in charge of coordinating the
various DMS's within the domain.

</mglt>
 
   ITP.  DDoS Mitigation System selection and DDoS Mitigation technique
   may depends on the type of DDoS attack.  In some case, a manual

nit: "techniques" plural

<mglt>
Corrected:

DDoS Mitigation System selection and DDoS Mitigation techniques may
depends on the type of DDoS attack.
</mglt> 

   The communication between a network administrator and the
   orchestrator is also performed using DOTS.  The network administrator
   via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the
   Orchestrator implements a DOTS server.

nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator has a
web interface.  I think "its" is supposed to refer to something else.

<mglt>
What we are trying to say is that the network administrator sees its web interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that interface. I have not made any change to address that concern, as I do not clearly see what is confusing.  
</mglt>
 
nit: Figure 4 lists "DDoS mitigation systems" in both the interprise and
the ITP, but only the enterprise side has a "stack" of boxes to indicate
there is more than one.
 <mglt>
Both have two DMS's now.


</mglt>

   These systems are configured so that when an event or some
   measurement indicators reach a predefined level to send DOTS
   mitigation request to the orchestrator.  The DOTS mitigation request

nit: the grammar here is a bit off; I think s/to send DOTS mitigation
request/they send a DOTS mitigation request/ would fix it.

<mglt>
Thanks. This has been corrected accordingly:

These systems are configured so that when an event or some measurement
indicators reach a predefined level they send a DOTS mitigation request
to the orchestrator.

</mglt>
 
   Upon receipt of the DOTS mitigation request from the DDoS telemetry
   system, the orchestrator responds with an acknowledgment, to avoid
   retransmission of the request for mitigation.  The orchestrator may
   begin collecting additional fined grain and specific information from

nit: "fine-grained"

   and provide an analysis of the event.  Eventually, the orchestrator
   may ask additional information to the DDoS telemetry system, however,
   the collection of these information is out of scope.

nit: s/ask additional information to/ask for additional information
from/
nit: semicolon before "however" instead of comma
nit: "this information"

<mglt>
Thanks for the nits. All have been addressed in the text below:

The orchestrator may
begin collecting additional fine-grained and specific information from
various  DDoS telemetry systems in order to correlate the measurements
and provide an analysis of the event. Eventually, the orchestrator may
ask for additional information from the DDoS telemetry system; however,
the collection of this information is out of scope.

</mglt>
 
   Upon receiving a request to mitigate a DDoS attack performed over a
   target, the orchestrator, may evaluate the volumetry of the attack as

nit: no comma after "the orchestrator"

   well as the value that represent the target.  The orchestrator may

nit: "the value that the target represents"

<mglt>
The text has been corrected as follows:
Upon receiving a request to mitigate a DDoS attack performed over a
target, the orchestrator may evaluate the volumetry of the attack as
well as the value that the target represents. 
</mglt>
 
                          When DDoS Mitigation is requested, the status
   indicates the DDoS Mitigation is starting while not effective.  The
   DOTS client of the orchestrator will later be notified that the DDoS
   Mitigation is effective.

I'm not entirely sure what this last sentence is trying to say.

<mglt>
Initially, I believe we wanted to distinguish between accepting the mitigation and having the mitigation effective. I do not think that  necessary here as such details are provided in section 3.1. 

The orchestrator requests a DDoS Mitigation to the selected
DDoS mitigation systems via its DOTS client, as described in Section
3.1.
</mglt> 
   Orchestration of the DDoS mitigation systems works similarly as
   described in Section 3.1.  The orchestrator indicates with its status
   whether the DDoS Mitigation is effective.

Is this intended to specifically refer to the external (ITP) DMS?

<mglt>
We did not see any differences between the DMS. I believe that the text above clarify the DMS is the one selected by the orchestrator. 
 
</mglt>
 
Also, my understanding is that for this interaction the orchestrator is
acting as a DOTS client, but the rest of the document only has status
messages being generated by the DOTS server.  Am I confused?
 
<mglt>
The orchestrator got DOTS client and DOTS servers. I updated the section to clarify which entity is involved in term of DOTS. I believe that clarifies the concern. 

</mglt> 
Section 4

It feels incomplete to list three primary attacks but only discuss
mitigations for two of them.  Perhaps "preconfigured mitigation steps to
take on the loss of keepalive traffic can partially mitigate signal
blocking, but in general it is impossible to comprehensively defend
against an attacker that can selectively block any or all traffic".

<mglt>
Just added this sentence.
</mglt> 
Section 6

Is Med's name spelled correctly?

<mglt>
Now it is spelt correctly! Thanks. 
</mglt> 

Thanks,

Ben

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_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots

--
Standard Robert Moskowitz
Owner
HTT Consulting
C:      248-219-2059
F:      248-968-2824
E:      rgm@labs.htt-consult.com

There's no limit to what can be accomplished if it doesn't matter who gets the credit
--------------13B260E11AC2CDAB857196BA-- From nobody Fri Jul 5 06:20:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 727A4120094 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 06:20:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8sWOtwS4JCA7 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 06:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 970E4120026 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 06:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id g20so9502642ioc.12 for ; Fri, 05 Jul 2019 06:20:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=pCIjp9uEtKqEBxfG73+8LC70ErNiQsg4kPgz1b1OGOM=; b=JqTtgRCDXFDotgNfdFLBhC6jy8tkdkPSYgen7gHKWKdSrTlhBYRHHx8+a+5a8jg9AO vRSjnz/bjnmkmMg5zRAYdzKcJBvTuy4fZNDPRN6HFKD69OksZkHX20RgmHE+7iclzeSU +ZU/NbUtPJcBsuhTGyyuRg8dNqkZFd0/QxOVMDK327U+WwpBPWYtkl0vPZyjkAoUFe6g IUCAxBul1+cDOVasZ2FACMppLEsWHoDgKmPIb5DQKVvtYA4lqB9ucIPkmSdyfznf8xnN /myaQnl54mopPvmF1TDp8ucHRwz6JlYsgc6GfQN9Br/RJ8WUzDFGnA0oQSwLF/l2qwU4 BBFg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=pCIjp9uEtKqEBxfG73+8LC70ErNiQsg4kPgz1b1OGOM=; b=A9qjV2XgtfzzxXCg9nevxNx5x+MtM9wnd1c7noMWVfCUl7YfA+QWCFVpgFoUWcWsv9 e76hgxGx4oAzhKWgMcJfdJc0HT3onovLhURENey9clyVT4znwxEqHP/lBOQp2FqOiE7/ e+b7xaKpgky7hwCUUWyD1kEBOveVOIZsS2vY+9Dfmp8Ol4ta9VQXo3cZlLgPDuQsO6zC ODwIajdN3EGfyrgC8rJpFmMqyKP8vg7qhBi+dTyfhbnxzBWEL64Xw6xYDFQTTbIoz8PD UHWjn0a9ZYgE8UiBqJtYWZNxI+LKVXBRW2j3E6Vfxyb+bWPWoMvofyv7OwJLFNRgYPJr Pu2Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXtNvAPOSQiihnYI0x/xj/fmiGhqiSkYhNp/3kxq8MvQmGAZ/+O DyN0lvUO0ZWWgFyPgqN+1XELlQx/iLuBJ3UGPELiPDfy X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzoTlE/ukaeinXgFshjXJ90Vv+LGwpidmxqycZcI3qaRrIFIchTZTEDu9oZd80MrSjcQy0hWCNaKDlDg/zAN8I= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:5:: with SMTP id z5mr4641359jao.58.1562332849734; Fri, 05 Jul 2019 06:20:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156233245922.21720.2303446065970922340.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <156233245922.21720.2303446065970922340.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: tirumal reddy Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 18:50:38 +0530 Message-ID: To: dots@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000878c66058ceef6d8" Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 13:20:53 -0000 --000000000000878c66058ceef6d8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi all, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00 aims to enrich DOTS protocols with various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS attack mitigation. This document specifies the normal traffic baseline and attack traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to its DOTS server in the mitigation request, the mitigation status telemetry attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS client, and the mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client can communicate to a DOTS server. The telemetry attributes can assist the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques and perform optimal DDoS attack mitigation. Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome. Cheers, -Tiru ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 18:44 Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt To: Tirumaleswar Reddy , Ehud Doron , Mohamed Boucadair A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-reddy-dots-telemetry Revision: 00 Title: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Telemetry Document date: 2019-07-05 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 13 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry Abstract: This document aims to enrich DOTS signal channel protocol with various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS attack mitigation. This document specifies the normal traffic baseline and attack traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to its DOTS server in the mitigation request, the mitigation status telemetry attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS client, and the mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client can communicate to a DOTS server. The telemetry attributes can assist the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques and perform optimal DDoS attack mitigation. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --000000000000878c66058ceef6d8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00=C2=A0a= ims to enrich DOTS protocols with=C2=A0various telemetry attributes allowin= g optimal DDoS attack mitigation.=C2=A0This document specifies the normal t= raffic baseline and attack=C2=A0traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client = can convey to its DOTS=C2=A0server in the mitigation request, the mitigatio= n status telemetry=C2=A0attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS = client, and the=C2=A0mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client= can=C2=A0communicate to a DOTS server.=C2=A0 The telemetry attributes can = assist=C2=A0the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques and perf= orm=C2=A0optimal DDoS attack mitigation.

Comments, suggestions, and = questions are more than welcome.

Cheers,
-Tiru
<= div>
--= -------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 18:44
Subject: New Version Notification f= or draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt
To: Tirumaleswar Reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>, Ehud Doron <ehudd@radware.com>, Mohamed Boucad= air <mohamed.boucadair@o= range.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-reddy-dots-telemetry Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Distributed Denial-of-Service Open= Threat Signaling (DOTS) Telemetry
Document date:=C2=A0 2019-07-05
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 13
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-dots-telem= etry-00.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https:/= /tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry


Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document aims to enrich DOTS signal channel protocol with=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS attack miti= gation.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document specifies the normal traffic baseline and attack=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to its D= OTS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0server in the mitigation request, the mitigation status teleme= try
=C2=A0 =C2=A0attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS client, and= the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client can
=C2=A0 =C2=A0communicate to a DOTS server.=C2=A0 The telemetry attributes c= an assist
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques and per= form
=C2=A0 =C2=A0optimal DDoS attack mitigation.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

--000000000000878c66058ceef6d8-- From nobody Fri Jul 5 06:54:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C719A1200B3 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 06:54:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uLcF4ayrFBeY for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 06:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com (mail-lf1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06EDB1200B2 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 06:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id b17so2799157lff.7 for ; Fri, 05 Jul 2019 06:54:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=wnxv8LLt+zdN/fSbNq+L2lX1+SDyv0AfxVZzTdEksyk=; b=fFy79EtH+AB3Qqenugsm8sxR76rKQ74Gw+7FjuUSLarrRkr9WOp+tk2nXxdHjLF7XN 5vKWii+QLmOILaam8heAxKXhnQb7wEdUSnwbcj7zLO5gXAk4637BdGGkp9CNPKCrYkPZ 0jKmZ/q4fs1rz5vt89QkpxryT2xByhGwVjQDkkH/x2CvYL8SZ+J71QQXL9MeWoFFVteS UnH1FjWcqJovVzi+IU8ZrU/0Bx7BJgUbPR+k+Or7n8g0XSfD6X8DYfv2AVsoZrTubbUl wIlbmz6lWRql3obc8eit5x1VHdSSjGrKDlhO3rwjF991yAJ73DrRWTWH/r1WAgJ8pIQh o1vA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wnxv8LLt+zdN/fSbNq+L2lX1+SDyv0AfxVZzTdEksyk=; b=Im0Di5bXk3ftz5x1CwIceYyiSA35yqCLf8f4gTRmT/Hj7tEWaazDSV6vIvryzlZP5z a9KrlrLpVuTdjoL4udzCXWJrM0Hds8Xc8UbISMxJ5FapuXlI08V3Zt4k8+yE9pM2YDNv /Wv4SDfgJfhOH9PcPjpToQpIfx0aiRN/BPNUoWsM7dkP6OJZjX7ILEiVu/Oo2tHzkp/S IV+AMI7nqHviFEF+1wGnQS3j+oiKZ4/4S6IOqxpFyf6E+8syf9ms/qFricfEWINABJXE mrqhCyOSCwESa24yih23Zz48atv7PQVBvp9uLqXpNaM+I3RGIhSK6+F8e1gHb3i2dbk2 bpzQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXzMst3MA01GgihlBV+aN6JYLyM1/roiCOTnp3MywaTolNqSMLH 2ZmJgD2NQHdNg7WI2xNLGRwdJmIH6ZAL386AIMy8lKUk X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwlUC27LxvohMPL3La0iSBhQoX1KqqS1/qIDvLqSKhGA4JNwo/at0Rvgo39P+T5771nBd25sTiCQOWC7JrHBZM= X-Received: by 2002:a19:550f:: with SMTP id n15mr2172398lfe.34.1562334864750; Fri, 05 Jul 2019 06:54:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156230377308.12003.8119660447142601637.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <156230377308.12003.8119660447142601637.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: H Y Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 22:54:14 +0900 Message-ID: To: dots@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 13:54:30 -0000 Hi all, I updated my draft draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase based on WG's comments at IETF 104. This draft supports draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home and draft-ietf-dots-signal-filter-control, which expands the current signal channel spec. Thanks, Yuhei ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=885=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 14:16 Subject: New Version Notification for draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01.txt To: Yuhei Hayashi , Mohamed Boucadair , Kaname Nishizuka A new version of I-D, draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Yuhei Hayashi and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase Revision: 01 Title: DDoS Mitigation Offload Use Case and DOTS Deployment Considerations Document date: 2019-07-05 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 19 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase= -01.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecas= e Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-= 01 Abstract: This document describes a DDoS mitigation offload use case and DOTS deployment consideration of the use case. This use case assumes that a DMS (DDoS Mitigation System) whose utilization rate is high sends its blocked traffic information to an orchestrator using DOTS protocols, then the orchestrator requests forwarding nodes such as routers to filter the traffic. Doing so enables service providers to mitigate DDoS attack traffic automatically while ensuring interoperability and distributed filter enforcement. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --=20 ---------------------------------- Yuuhei HAYASHI 08065300884 yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp ---------------------------------- From nobody Sun Jul 7 18:59:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F39151200F1 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 18:59:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nDWlFiWtqUjz for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 18:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6533E1200E3 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 18:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 19E3B450E4E3B01E6D9B for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 02:59:06 +0100 (IST) Received: from lhreml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.55) by LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 02:59:05 +0100 Received: from lhreml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.55) by lhreml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1713.5; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 02:59:05 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM421-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.38) by lhreml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 02:59:05 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM511-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.140]) by dggemm421-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.198.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 09:58:59 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" To: "dots@ietf.org" CC: Valery Smyslov Thread-Topic: DOTS WG agenda for IETF105 Thread-Index: AdUzCQs0+T1X0j0tQ7a9nYJjnBomgACJ1STg Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 01:58:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: <07e801d53309$0f236dc0$2d6a4940$@smyslov.net> In-Reply-To: <07e801d53309$0f236dc0$2d6a4940$@smyslov.net> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.159.76] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBET1RTIFdHIGFnZW5kYSBmb3IgSUVURjEw?= =?utf-8?q?5?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 01:59:10 -0000 SGksDQpSZW1pbmQsIHBsZWFzZSBzZW5kIHlvdXIgcHJlc2VudGF0aW9uIHJlcXVlc3QgdG8gRE9U UyBjaGFpciBiZWZvcmUgV2VkbmVzZGF5IHRoaXMgd2Vlay4NCg0KVGhhbmtzIQ0KDQpCLlIuDQpG cmFuaw0KDQotLS0tLemCruS7tuWOn+S7ti0tLS0tDQrlj5Hku7bkuro6IFZhbGVyeSBTbXlzbG92 IFttYWlsdG86dmFsZXJ5QHNteXNsb3YubmV0XSANCuWPkemAgeaXtumXtDogMjAxOeW5tDfmnIg1 5pelIDE2OjEwDQrmlLbku7bkuro6IGRvdHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCuaKhOmAgTogWGlhbGlhbmcgKEZy YW5rLCBOZXR3b3JrIFN0YW5kYXJkICYgUGF0ZW50IERlcHQpIDxmcmFuay54aWFsaWFuZ0BodWF3 ZWkuY29tPg0K5Li76aKYOiBET1RTIFdHIGFnZW5kYSBmb3IgSUVURjEwNQ0KDQpIaSwNCg0KdGhl IGZpbmFsIElFVEYxMDUgYWdlbmRhIGhhcyBiZWVuIHB1Ymxpc2hlZCB3aXRoIG5vIGNoYW5nZXMg cmVnYXJkaW5nIHRoZSBET1RTIFdHIG1lZXRpbmcgc2NoZWR1bGVkIHRpbWUgYW5kIHBsYWNlLg0K DQpUaGUgY2hhaXJzIGFyZSBub3cgaW4gYSBwcm9jZXNzIG9mIGNvbXBvc2luZyBET1RTIFdHIGFn ZW5kYSwgc28gaWYgeW91IHdhbnQgdG8gbWFrZSBhIHByZXNlbnRhdGlvbiBwbGVhc2Ugc2VuZCB1 cyBhIHJlcXVlc3QgZm9yIGl0LCBpZGVhbGx5IGJlZm9yZSBXZWRuZXNkYXksIEp1bHkgdGhlIDEw dGguIA0KUGxlYXNlIGluY2x1ZGUgYW4gYXBwcm94aW1hdGUgZHVyYXRpb24gb2YgeW91ciBwcmVz ZW50YXRpb24uIA0KDQpKdXN0IGEgcmVtaW5kZXIgLSAgd2UgaGF2ZSBhIDItaG91ciBtZWV0aW5n IHNsb3QsIHNvIHdlIGJlbGlldmUgdGhlcmUgaXMgZW5vdWdoIHRpbWUuDQoNClJlZ2FyZHMsDQpG cmFuayAmIFZhbGVyeS4NCg0KDQo+IEhpIERPVFMgV0cgYXR0ZW5kZWVzLA0KPiBGWUksIGlmIG5v IGFueSBuZXcgY2hhbmdlLCBvdXIgRE9UUyBzZXNzaW9uIGluIHRoZSBJRVRGIDEwNXRoIA0KPiBw cmVsaW1pbmFyeSBhZ2VuZGEgaXMgYXQgMTA6MDAtMTI6MDAgKFdlZG5lc2RheSBNb3JuaW5nIHNl c3Npb24gSSksIHRoZSBtZWV0aW5nIHJvb20gaXMtLUNlbnRyZSBWaWxsZS4NCj4gDQo+IEhhcHB5 IHRvIHNlZSB5b3UgdGhlbn5+DQo+IA0KPiBCLlIuDQo+IEZyYW5rDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gLS0tLS3p gq7ku7bljp/ku7YtLS0tLQ0KPiDlj5Hku7bkuro6IFdHQ2hhaXJzIFttYWlsdG86d2djaGFpcnMt Ym91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10g5Luj6KGoIElFVEYgQWdlbmRhDQo+IOWPkemAgeaXtumXtDogMjAx OeW5tDbmnIgyMuaXpSA2OjA0DQo+IOaUtuS7tuS6ujogV29ya2luZyBHcm91cCBDaGFpcnMgPHdn Y2hhaXJzQGlldGYub3JnPg0KPiDkuLvpopg6IElFVEYgMTA1IFByZWxpbWluYXJ5IEFnZW5kYQ0K PiANCj4gVGhlIElFVEYgMTA1IHByZWxpbWluYXJ5IGFnZW5kYSBoYXMgYmVlbiBwb3N0ZWQuIFRo ZSBmaW5hbCBhZ2VuZGEgd2lsbCBiZSBwdWJsaXNoZWQgb24gRnJpZGF5LCBKdW5lIDI4LCAyMDE5 Lg0KPiANCj4gSWYgeW91IHdvdWxkIGxpa2UgdG8gcmVxdWVzdCBhIGNoYW5nZSB0byB0aGUgcHJl bGltaW5hcnkgYWdlbmRhLCANCj4gcGxlYXNlIHNlbmQgYSBtZXNzYWdlIHRvIGFnZW5kYUBpZXRm Lm9yZyBhbmQgY29weSBhbGwgcmVsZXZhbnQgQXJlYSBEaXJlY3RvcnMuDQo+IA0KPiBodHRwczov L2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL21lZXRpbmcvMTA1L2FnZW5kYS5odG1sDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8v ZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWVldGluZy8xMDUvYWdlbmRhLnR4dA0KPiANCj4gVGhlIHBs ZW5hcnkgYXQgSUVURiAxMDUgd2lsbCBiZSBzcGxpdCBpbnRvIHR3byBzZWN0aW9ucy4gRmlyc3Qs IGEgDQo+IHRlY2huaWNhbCBwbGVuYXJ5IGZyb20gMTc6MTAgdG8gMTg6MTAsIGZvbGxvd2VkIGJ5 IHRoZSANCj4gYWRtaW5pc3RyYXRpdmUvb3BlcmF0aW9ucyBwbGVuYXJ5IGZyb20gMTg6MjAgdG8g MTk6NTAuIFRoZSB0ZW4gbWludXRlIGJyZWFrIGluIGJldHdlZW4gd2lsbCBhbGxvdyBhdHRlbmRl ZXMgdG8gZW50ZXIgb3IgZXhpdCBpZiB0aGV5IHdpc2guDQo+IA0KPiBUaGUgZXhwZXJpbWVudCB3 aXRoIHVuc3RydWN0dXJlZCBhZ2VuZGEgdGltZSBjb250aW51ZXMgYXQgSUVURiAxMDUsIA0KPiB3 aXRoIGFuIGhvdXIgYW5kIGZpZnRlZW4gbWludXRlcyBlYWNoIG1vcm5pbmcuIENvbnRpbmVudGFs IGJyZWFrZmFzdCANCj4gd2lsbCBiZSBwcm92aWRlZCBpbiB0aGUgQ29uZ3Jlc3MgSGFsbCBGb3ll ciBmcm9tIDA4OjAwIC0gMDk6MDAuIA0KPiBNZWV0aW5nIHJvb21zIHdpbGwgYmUgYXZhaWxhYmxl IGZvciBzaWdudXBzIGZyb20gMDg6MzAgLSAwOTo0NS4gDQo+IFJlZ3VsYXIgV0cgc2Vzc2lvbnMg d2lsbCBiZWdpbiBhdCAxMDowMC4gSW4gYWRkaXRpb24sIHR3byBhdHRlbmRlZSBzaWdudXAgcm9v bXMgd2lsbCBiZSBhdmFpbGFibGUgdGhyb3VnaG91dCB0aGUgd2VlayBhcyB1c3VhbC4gRnVydGhl ciBkZXRhaWxzIGFib3V0IGhvdyB0byBzaWduIHVwIGZvciBhIG1lZXRpbmcgcm9vbSB3aWxsIGJl IGFubm91bmNlZCBzaG9ydGx5Lg0KPiANCj4gVGhhbmsgeW91IQ0KPiANCj4gSUVURiBTZWNyZXRh cmlhdA0KPiANCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X18NCj4gRG90cyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gRG90c0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5p ZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2RvdHMNCg0K From nobody Sun Jul 7 19:11:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5272A1200F1 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 19:11:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nttv6.jp Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2RXJPHoPRMnY for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 19:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from guri.nttv6.jp (guri.nttv6.jp [115.69.228.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D38471200D8 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 19:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z.nttv6.jp (z.nttv6.jp [192.168.8.15]) by guri.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 0AEE225F6BB; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 11:11:53 +0900 (JST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nttv6.jp; s=20180820; t=1562551913; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=B6tH8H+k8ntKNwqK597g1H9ULTHyTTkCqCWegci2U2o=; b=hmkcdZRIRv8XNmZhUXifXDLke8qtRyLnCWzO6xufz8HZyNbbgFdn9neRHS5peMI9UnPEb6 Pj4sQ3OYaoSAga2MfwNxEPta6g6C3yEMvK6d6+/yi6TR3svlnUU55LW3Aefs0m6lW9lNa/ oe3teLPjJf7OPX0PDebuSZRde40Vc3g= Received: from macbook-pro-17.lv4.nttv6.jp (fujiko.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:136::141]) by z.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id F08567634EF; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 11:11:52 +0900 (JST) To: Valery Smyslov , dots@ietf.org Cc: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" References: <07e801d53309$0f236dc0$2d6a4940$@smyslov.net> From: kaname nishizuka Message-ID: <0153f87c-7c7a-a0be-d6a1-795a9eb289ab@nttv6.jp> Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 11:11:48 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <07e801d53309$0f236dc0$2d6a4940$@smyslov.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] DOTS WG agenda for IETF105 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 02:11:57 -0000 Hi Chairs, I'd like to request a presentation slot for update of draft-ietf-dots-signal-filter-control including implementation experience for 10 min. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-signal-filter-control/ thanks, Kaname On 2019/07/05 17:10, Valery Smyslov wrote: > Hi, > > the final IETF105 agenda has been published with no changes regarding the DOTS WG > meeting scheduled time and place. > > The chairs are now in a process of composing DOTS WG agenda, so if you want to > make a presentation please send us a request for it, ideally before Wednesday, July the 10th. > Please include an approximate duration of your presentation. > > Just a reminder - we have a 2-hour meeting slot, so we believe there is enough time. > > Regards, > Frank & Valery. > > >> Hi DOTS WG attendees, >> FYI, if no any new change, our DOTS session in the IETF 105th preliminary agenda is at 10:00-12:00 >> (Wednesday Morning session I), the meeting room is--Centre Ville. >> >> Happy to see you then~~ >> >> B.R. >> Frank >> >> >> -----邮件原件----- >> å‘件人: WGChairs [mailto:wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org] 代表 IETF Agenda >> å‘é€æ—¶é—´: 2019å¹´6月22æ—¥ 6:04 >> 收件人: Working Group Chairs >> 主题: IETF 105 Preliminary Agenda >> >> The IETF 105 preliminary agenda has been posted. The final agenda will be published on Friday, June 28, 2019. >> >> If you would like to request a change to the preliminary agenda, please send a message to agenda@ietf.org >> and copy all relevant Area Directors. >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/agenda.html >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/agenda.txt >> >> The plenary at IETF 105 will be split into two sections. First, a technical plenary from 17:10 to 18:10, followed >> by the administrative/operations plenary from 18:20 to 19:50. The ten minute break in between will allow >> attendees to enter or exit if they wish. >> >> The experiment with unstructured agenda time continues at IETF 105, with an hour and fifteen minutes each >> morning. Continental breakfast will be provided in the Congress Hall Foyer from 08:00 - 09:00. Meeting rooms >> will be available for signups from 08:30 - 09:45. Regular WG sessions will begin at 10:00. In addition, two >> attendee signup rooms will be available throughout the week as usual. Further details about how to sign up >> for a meeting room will be announced shortly. >> >> Thank you! >> >> IETF Secretariat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Dots mailing list >> Dots@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Sun Jul 7 23:06:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92258120106 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 23:06:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.857 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.857 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.741, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UuTgWMUXjXIM for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 23:06:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta3.chinamobile.com (cmccmta3.chinamobile.com [221.176.66.81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C1C3120099 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 23:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.121.19]) by rmmx-syy-dmz-app09-12009 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee95d22dd52206-09aee; Mon, 08 Jul 2019 14:06:11 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee95d22dd52206-09aee X-RM-TagInfo: emlType=0 X-RM-SPAM-FLAG: 00000000 Received: from cmcc-PC (unknown[10.2.51.70]) by rmsmtp-syy-appsvr10-12010 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2eea5d22dd51b8e-d3ea3; Mon, 08 Jul 2019 14:06:10 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2eea5d22dd51b8e-d3ea3 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 14:06:10 +0800 From: "Meiling Chen" To: =?us-ascii?B?WGlhbGlhbmcgKEZyYW5rLCBOZXR3b3JrIEludGVncmF0aW9uIFRlY2hub2xvZ3kgUmVzZWFyY2ggRGVwdCk=?= , dots References: X-Priority: 3 X-Has-Attach: no X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.2.9.115[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <201907081406099088275@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart588484358200_=----" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] About remote presentation in IETF 105: X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 06:06:31 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart588484358200_=---- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgRnJhbmssDQpJIHdvdWxkIGxpa2UgdG8gYXBwbHkgZm9yICBhIDE1IG1pbiByZW1vdGUgcHJl c2VudGF0aW9uIGZvciBteSBuZXcgZHJhZnRzIGRyYWZ0LWNoZW4tZG90cy1zZXJ2ZXItaGllcmFy Y2hpY2FsLWRlcGxveW1lbnQtMDAgYW5kIGRyYWZ0LWNoZW4tZG90cy1hdHRhY2staW5mb3JtYXRp b25zLTAwLiANCg0KQmVzdCBSZWdhcmRzLg0KRnJvbTogWGlhbGlhbmcgKEZyYW5rLCBOZXR3b3Jr IFN0YW5kYXJkICYgUGF0ZW50IERlcHQpDQpEYXRlOiAyMDE5LTA3LTAzIDE1OjQ0DQpUbzogZG90 c0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KU3ViamVjdDogW0RvdHNdIEFib3V0IHJlbW90ZSBwcmVzZW50YXRpb24gaW4g SUVURiAxMDU6DQpIaSwNCklmIGFueW9uZSBjYW5ub3QgYmUgdGhlIG1lZXRpbmcgc2l0ZSBpbiBw ZXJzb24sIGFuZCBuZWVkIHRoZSByZW1vdGUgcHJlc2VudGF0aW9uLCBwbGVhc2UgbGV0IHRoZSBj aGFpcnMga25vdyBiZWZvcmUgSnVseSAyMCwgMjAxOS4gDQogDQpXZSBjYW4gYXJyYW5nZSB5b3Vy IHJlbW90ZSBwcmVzZW50YXRpb24gc2xvdCBwcm92aWRlZCBieSBtZWV0ZWNobyB0b29sLg0KIA0K Qi5SLg0KRnJhbmsNCiANCiANCiANClRoaXMgZS1tYWlsIGFuZCBpdHMgYXR0YWNobWVudHMgY29u dGFpbiBjb25maWRlbnRpYWwgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gZnJvbSBIVUFXRUksIHdoaWNoIGlzIGludGVu ZGVkIG9ubHkgZm9yIHRoZSBwZXJzb24gb3IgZW50aXR5IHdob3NlIGFkZHJlc3MgaXMgbGlzdGVk IGFib3ZlLiBBbnkgdXNlIG9mIHRoZSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBjb250YWluZWQgaGVyZWluIGluIGFu eSB3YXkgKGluY2x1ZGluZywgYnV0IG5vdCBsaW1pdGVkIHRvLCB0b3RhbCBvciBwYXJ0aWFsIGRp c2Nsb3N1cmUsIHJlcHJvZHVjdGlvbiwgb3IgZGlzc2VtaW5hdGlvbikgYnkgcGVyc29ucyBvdGhl ciB0aGFuIHRoZSBpbnRlbmRlZCByZWNpcGllbnQocykgaXMgcHJvaGliaXRlZC4gSWYgeW91IHJl Y2VpdmUgdGhpcyBlLW1haWwgaW4gZXJyb3IsIHBsZWFzZSBub3RpZnkgdGhlIHNlbmRlciBieSBw aG9uZSBvciBlbWFpbCBpbW1lZGlhdGVseSBhbmQgZGVsZXRlIGl0IQ0KIA0K ------=_001_NextPart588484358200_=---- Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A=0A
Hi Frank= ,
I would like to apply for  a 15 min remote presentation f= or my new drafts draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-00 and&nbs= p;draft-chen-dots-attack-informations-00. 
=0A

=0A=
Best Regards.
Date: 2019-07-03 15:44
Subject:<= /b> [Dots] About remote presentation in IETF 105:
=0A=0A
= =0A

Hi,

=0A

If anyone cannot be the meeti= ng site in person, and need the remote presentation, please let the chairs= know before July 20, 2019.=0A

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=0A

We can arrange your remote presentation slot provi= ded by meetecho tool.

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&n= bsp;

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B.R.

=0A=

= Frank

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------=_001_NextPart588484358200_=------ From nobody Mon Jul 8 01:11:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietf.org Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CF80120130; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 01:11:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: dots@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.98.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dots@ietf.org Message-ID: <156257347600.1101.158066321000374574@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 01:11:16 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-03.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 08:11:25 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IETF. Title : Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Signal Channel Call Home Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy Mohamed Boucadair Jon Shallow Filename : draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-03.txt Pages : 28 Date : 2019-07-08 Abstract: This document specifies the DOTS signal channel Call Home service, which enables a DOTS server to initiate a secure connection to a DOTS client, and to receive the attack traffic information from the DOTS client. The DOTS server in turn uses the attack traffic information to identify the compromised devices launching the outgoing DDoS attack and takes appropriate mitigation action(s). The DOTS Call Home service is not specific to the home networks; the solution targets any deployment which requires to block DDoS attack traffic closer to the source(s) of a DDoS attack. Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor) Please update these statements within the document with the RFC number to be assigned to this document: o "This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX;" o "RFC XXXX: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Signal Channel Call Home"; o "| [RFCXXXX] |" o reference: RFC XXXX Please update this statement with the RFC number to be assigned to the following documents: o "RFC YYYY: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification (used to be I-D.ietf-dots- signal-channel) Please update TBD statements with the assignment made by IANA to DOTS Signal Channel Call Home. Also, please update the "revision" date of the YANG module. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-03 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 8 01:15:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 103AB1200B6 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 01:15:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SB5G_7e4zTPw for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 01:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98D9D120127 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 01:15:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar03.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.5]) by opfedar20.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45hytc75HMz8tMy for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 10:15:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.45]) by opfedar03.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45hytc6PWJzCqkX for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 10:15:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM42.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 10:15:20 +0200 From: To: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHVNWTEJVtbVpgREECsJdPIVTpiLabAXuMw Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 08:15:19 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAC5448@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <156257347600.1101.158066321000374574@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <156257347600.1101.158066321000374574@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-03.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 08:15:26 -0000 Hi all,=20 The new version integrates the comments received on the list (e.g., restruc= ture the NAT/CGN text, clarify the attributes are mandatory for the call ho= me, etc.).=20 Also, this version includes an appendix provided by Wei (Pan) to discuss wh= y we went for a separate port number instead of reusing 4646. Comments are more than welcome.=20 Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de internet- > drafts@ietf.org > Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 8 juillet 2019 10:11 > =C0=A0: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc=A0: dots@ietf.org > Objet=A0: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-03.txt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the > IETF. >=20 > Title : Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat > Signaling (DOTS) Signal Channel Call Home > Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy > Mohamed Boucadair > Jon Shallow > Filename : draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-03.txt > Pages : 28 > Date : 2019-07-08 >=20 > Abstract: > This document specifies the DOTS signal channel Call Home service, > which enables a DOTS server to initiate a secure connection to a DOTS > client, and to receive the attack traffic information from the DOTS > client. The DOTS server in turn uses the attack traffic information > to identify the compromised devices launching the outgoing DDoS > attack and takes appropriate mitigation action(s). >=20 > The DOTS Call Home service is not specific to the home networks; the > solution targets any deployment which requires to block DDoS attack > traffic closer to the source(s) of a DDoS attack. >=20 > Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor) >=20 > Please update these statements within the document with the RFC > number to be assigned to this document: >=20 > o "This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX;" >=20 > o "RFC XXXX: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling > (DOTS) Signal Channel Call Home"; >=20 > o "| [RFCXXXX] |" >=20 > o reference: RFC XXXX >=20 > Please update this statement with the RFC number to be assigned to > the following documents: >=20 > o "RFC YYYY: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling > (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification (used to be I-D.ietf-dots- > signal-channel) >=20 > Please update TBD statements with the assignment made by IANA to DOTS > Signal Channel Call Home. >=20 > Also, please update the "revision" date of the YANG module. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home/ >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-03 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-03 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-03 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Mon Jul 8 08:00:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietf.org Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56FC112018A; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 08:00:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: dots@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.98.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dots@ietf.org Message-ID: <156259804227.908.5270533618265195195@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 08:00:42 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 15:00:43 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IETF. Title : Use cases for DDoS Open Threat Signaling Authors : Roland Dobbins Daniel Migault Stefan Fouant Robert Moskowitz Nik Teague Liang Xia Kaname Nishizuka Filename : draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2019-07-08 Abstract: The DDoS Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) effort is intended to provide protocols to facilitate interoperability across disparate DDoS mitigation solutions. This document presents sample use cases which describe the interactions expected between the DOTS components as well as DOTS messaging exchanges. These use cases are meant to identify the interacting DOTS components, how they collaborate, and what are the typical information to be exchanged. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 8 08:33:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F0E812021D for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 08:33:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.106 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.106 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.247, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u5RLSGJ3ddlG for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 08:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-f46.google.com (mail-vs1-f46.google.com [209.85.217.46]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DDBA120250 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 08:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-f46.google.com with SMTP id h28so8484307vsl.12 for ; Mon, 08 Jul 2019 08:33:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=KwkIDFYJQ1hB7LTpL3nQ9tmmhTNe15392KAZd4n9neU=; b=bymrf68BJO9T0V4P3MgOAJ9Ec9R8UHnAkuNmd/Hb3uoIXOnzZh6ia1hN06XUhSuWaB A80C9fFgPiLc5+SadiiKerk+RFieG4Pq5rOq9pmEY/UGURSBy3qLuf9mRmMGOvZs2n4Y F/IIzHobALFP6D7yKhV7Xqe2Sx4zne21Z9sX/lHmySecpT6qOXDCbR4chUOYTEqrDebs nr6Gnb12odFO9ZITloPFwvas1x95+9hK2Encgn3qEL19g43Yqth2t93qAfsV4YjSMe02 nX2MxeZMFod+Clx+zZPKxbS5MwICwRhGw+tx6Vzdpddz7/CS2poiDeMhkOWQ0s9HlUQO lsyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXjmOWcUmz7vATcjuTVSuVPqz9JFbCTwhrrxPy9hwe7CB30RwUB fLVofOTrqOEiYeOOmliFc73rYEVZLDY02fqZe2qlPQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxpl85Qwwoj+FWtlS5djjKJVyPxPmuGQJQ8qKpnE02HtgxwJcb1S6GIJBWzrhc6RV6WRIVIzu5+sscvKQ9u7gE= X-Received: by 2002:a67:fb0d:: with SMTP id d13mr9982319vsr.69.1562600001950; Mon, 08 Jul 2019 08:33:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156259804227.908.5270533618265195195@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <156259804227.908.5270533618265195195@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Daniel Migault Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 11:33:11 -0400 Message-ID: To: dots Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000adbe7058d2d2ad6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 15:33:34 -0000 --0000000000000adbe7058d2d2ad6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Please find an updated version of the document. In order to move the draft forward, I propose to move the authors that have not provided IPR disclosure by IETF 105. Yours, Daniel On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 11:01 AM wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IETF. > > Title : Use cases for DDoS Open Threat Signaling > Authors : Roland Dobbins > Daniel Migault > Stefan Fouant > Robert Moskowitz > Nik Teague > Liang Xia > Kaname Nishizuka > Filename : draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18.txt > Pages : 14 > Date : 2019-07-08 > > Abstract: > The DDoS Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) effort is intended to provide > protocols to facilitate interoperability across disparate DDoS > mitigation solutions. This document presents sample use cases which > describe the interactions expected between the DOTS components as > well as DOTS messaging exchanges. These use cases are meant to > identify the interacting DOTS components, how they collaborate, and > what are the typical information to be exchanged. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases/ > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > --0000000000000adbe7058d2d2ad6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,=C2=A0

Please find an updated versio= n of the document. In order to move the draft forward, I propose to move th= e authors that have not provided IPR disclosure by IETF 105.=C2=A0

Yours,=C2=A0
Daniel

On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at = 11:01 AM <internet-drafts@ie= tf.org> wrote:

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies.
This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IETF.=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= Use cases for DDoS Open Threat Signaling
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Rola= nd Dobbins
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Daniel Migault
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Stefan Fouant
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Robert Moskowitz
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Nik Teague
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Liang Xia
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Kaname Nishizuka
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet= f-dots-use-cases-18.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= 14
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 := 2019-07-08

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The DDoS Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) effort is intended to pr= ovide
=C2=A0 =C2=A0protocols to facilitate interoperability across disparate DDoS=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0mitigation solutions.=C2=A0 This document presents sample use = cases which
=C2=A0 =C2=A0describe the interactions expected between the DOTS components= as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0well as DOTS messaging exchanges.=C2=A0 These use cases are me= ant to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0identify the interacting DOTS components, how they collaborate= , and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0what are the typical information to be exchanged.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie= tf-dots-use-cases/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-= use-cases-18
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/h= tml/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3D= draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
--0000000000000adbe7058d2d2ad6-- From nobody Tue Jul 9 01:22:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85F50120380 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 01:22:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aaNBWn4v5nW3 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 01:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta2.chinamobile.com (cmccmta2.chinamobile.com [221.176.66.80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 547331200FA for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 01:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.121.1]) by rmmx-syy-dmz-app07-12007 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee75d244eb1f8c-254de; Tue, 09 Jul 2019 16:22:09 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee75d244eb1f8c-254de X-RM-TagInfo: emlType=0 X-RM-SPAM-FLAG: 00000000 Received: from cmcc-PC (unknown[10.2.51.70]) by rmsmtp-syy-appsvr01-12001 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee15d244eaed24-2724e; Tue, 09 Jul 2019 16:22:07 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee15d244eaed24-2724e Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 16:22:08 +0800 From: "Meiling Chen" To: dots References: <156255079367.5032.740169640677679514.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Priority: 3 X-Has-Attach: no X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.2.9.115[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2019070916220747977115@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart265865372560_=----" Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-chen-dots-attack-informations-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 08:22:30 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart265865372560_=---- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgYWxsLA0KVHdvIGRyYWZ0cyBkcmFmdC1tZWlsaW5nLWRvdHMtYXR0YWNrLXR5cGUtZXhwYW5z aW9uLTAwICBhbmQgZHJhZnQtY2hlbi1kb3RzLWF0dGFjay1iYW5kd2lkdGgtZXhwYW5zaW9uLTAx IGZyb20gaWV0ZjEwNCBoYXZlIGJlZW4gbWVyZ2VkIGludG8gYSBuZXcgZHJhZnQsIA0KYW5kIGlu IHRoaXMgbmV3IGRyYWZ0LCB3ZSBtYWRlIHNvbWUgY2hhbmdlcyBiYXNlZCBvbiB0aGUgZGlzY3Vz c2lvbiBvbiB0aGUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0LiANCg0KQ29tbWVudHMgYXJlIG1vcmUgdGhhbiB3ZWxj b21lLg0KDQpCZXN0IFJlZ2FyZHMsDQpNZWlsaW5nIENoZW4gDQpGcm9tOiBpbnRlcm5ldC1kcmFm dHMNCkRhdGU6IDIwMTktMDctMDggMDk6NTMNClRvOiBMaSBTdTsgY2hlbm1laWxpbmc7IEppbiBQ ZW5nOyBNZWlsaW5nIENoZW4NClN1YmplY3Q6IE5ldyBWZXJzaW9uIE5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbiBmb3Ig ZHJhZnQtY2hlbi1kb3RzLWF0dGFjay1pbmZvcm1hdGlvbnMtMDAudHh0DQogDQpBIG5ldyB2ZXJz aW9uIG9mIEktRCwgZHJhZnQtY2hlbi1kb3RzLWF0dGFjay1pbmZvcm1hdGlvbnMtMDAudHh0DQpo YXMgYmVlbiBzdWNjZXNzZnVsbHkgc3VibWl0dGVkIGJ5IE1laWxpbmcgQ2hlbiBhbmQgcG9zdGVk IHRvIHRoZQ0KSUVURiByZXBvc2l0b3J5Lg0KIA0KTmFtZTogZHJhZnQtY2hlbi1kb3RzLWF0dGFj ay1pbmZvcm1hdGlvbnMNClJldmlzaW9uOiAwMA0KVGl0bGU6IERPVFMgY2xpZW50IGNhcnJ5IGRk b3MgYXR0YWNrIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGluIHNpZ25hbCBjaGFubmVsDQpEb2N1bWVudCBkYXRlOiAy MDE5LTA3LTA3DQpHcm91cDogSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJtaXNzaW9uDQpQYWdlczogMTINClVSTDog ICAgICAgICAgICBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9pbnRlcm5ldC1kcmFmdHMvZHJhZnQtY2hl bi1kb3RzLWF0dGFjay1pbmZvcm1hdGlvbnMtMDAudHh0DQpTdGF0dXM6ICAgICAgICAgaHR0cHM6 Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9kb2MvZHJhZnQtY2hlbi1kb3RzLWF0dGFjay1pbmZvcm1h dGlvbnMvDQpIdG1saXplZDogICAgICAgaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0 LWNoZW4tZG90cy1hdHRhY2staW5mb3JtYXRpb25zLTAwDQpIdG1saXplZDogICAgICAgaHR0cHM6 Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9kb2MvaHRtbC9kcmFmdC1jaGVuLWRvdHMtYXR0YWNrLWlu Zm9ybWF0aW9ucw0KIA0KIA0KQWJzdHJhY3Q6DQogICBUaGlzIGRvY3VtZW50IGRlc2NyaWJlcyBE RG9TIGF0dGFjayBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiB3aGljaCBjYW4gYmUgb2J0YWluZWQNCiAgIGJ5IERPVFMg Y2xpZW50IHdoZW4gdGhlIGVudGVycHJpc2Ugc3VzcGVjdHMgaXQgaXMgdW5kZXIgRERvUyBhdHRh Y2ssDQogICB0aGVzZSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbnMgd2lsbCBiZSBzZW5kIGZyb20gRE9UUyBjbGllbnQg dG8gRE9UUyBzZXJ2ZXIgdXNpbmcNCiAgIFNpZ25hbCBjaGFubmVsIHdpdGhpbiBNaXRpZ2F0aW9u IFJlcXVlc3QuDQogDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgDQogDQogDQpQbGVhc2Ugbm90 ZSB0aGF0IGl0IG1heSB0YWtlIGEgY291cGxlIG9mIG1pbnV0ZXMgZnJvbSB0aGUgdGltZSBvZiBz dWJtaXNzaW9uDQp1bnRpbCB0aGUgaHRtbGl6ZWQgdmVyc2lvbiBhbmQgZGlmZiBhcmUgYXZhaWxh YmxlIGF0IHRvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnLg0KIA0KVGhlIElFVEYgU2VjcmV0YXJpYXQNCiANCiANCg== ------=_001_NextPart265865372560_=---- Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A
Hi all,
Two drafts draft-meiling-dots-attack-= type-expansion-00  and draft-chen-dots-attack-bandwidth-expansio= n-01 from ietf104 have been merged into a new draft, 
and in this new draft, we made some changes = ;based on the discussion = on the mailing list. 

Comments are more than welcome.

Best Regards,
Meiling Chen 
Date:&= nbsp;2019-07-08 09:53
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-chen-dots-attac= k-informations-00.txt
 
=0A
A new= version of I-D, draft-chen-dots-attack-informations-00.txt
=0A
h= as been successfully submitted by Meiling Chen and posted to the
=0A<= div>IETF repository.
=0A
 
=0A
Name: draft-chen-do= ts-attack-informations
=0A
Revision: 00
=0A
Title: DOTS= client carry ddos attack information in signal channel
=0A
Docum= ent date: 2019-07-07
=0A
Group: Individual Submission
=0APages: 12=0A
URL:       &= nbsp;    https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chen-do= ts-attack-informations-00.txt
=0A
Status:    =      https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-dots-= attack-informations/
=0A
Htmlized:     &= nbsp; https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chen-dots-attack-informations-00=0A
Htmlized:       https://datatrac= ker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-chen-dots-attack-informations
=0A
&nb= sp;
=0A
 
=0A
Abstract:
=0A
   T= his document describes DDoS attack information which can be obtained
= =0A
   by DOTS client when the enterprise suspects it is und= er DDoS attack,
=0A
   these informations will be send = from DOTS client to DOTS server using
=0A
   Signal cha= nnel within Mitigation Request.
=0A
 
=0A
 &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     
=0A
 
=0A
 =
=0A
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the ti= me of submission
=0A
until the htmlized version and diff are avai= lable at tools.ietf.org.
=0A
 
=0A
The IETF Secreta= riat
=0A
 
=0A
 
=0A
------=_001_NextPart265865372560_=------ From nobody Tue Jul 9 01:34:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E80120397 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 01:34:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GQS14vYHZjJ0 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 01:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta3.chinamobile.com (cmccmta3.chinamobile.com [221.176.66.81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20289120385 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 01:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.121.1]) by rmmx-syy-dmz-app09-12009 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee95d245191735-26073; Tue, 09 Jul 2019 16:34:26 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee95d245191735-26073 X-RM-TagInfo: emlType=0 X-RM-SPAM-FLAG: 00000000 Received: from cmcc-PC (unknown[10.2.51.70]) by rmsmtp-syy-appsvr01-12001 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee15d2451917cc-281f6; Tue, 09 Jul 2019 16:34:26 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee15d2451917cc-281f6 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 16:34:26 +0800 From: "Meiling Chen" To: dots References: <156246539991.3273.3216673143517865297.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Priority: 3 X-Has-Attach: no X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.2.9.115[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2019070916342639919923@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart428034102048_=----" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 08:34:44 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart428034102048_=---- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgYWxsLA0KSSBoYXZlIHN1Ym1pdGVkIGEgZHJhZnQgd2hpY2ggc29tZSB0aG91Z2h0cyBhbmQg c3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMgb24gZG90cyBzZXJ2ZXIgZGVwbG95bWVudCBhcmUgZ2l2ZW4sIA0KQ29uc2lk ZXIgaG93IHRvIGRlcGxveSBiZXR3ZWVuIG9wZXJhdG9ycyBhbmQgd2l0aGluIG9wZXJhdG9ycy4N ClVSTDpodHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9kcmFmdC1jaGVuLWRvdHMtc2Vy dmVyLWhpZXJhcmNoaWNhbC1kZXBsb3ltZW50Lw0KUmVhZGluZyBhbmQgQ29tbWVudHMgYXJlIG1v cmUgdGhhbiB3ZWxjb21lLg0KDQpCZXN0IFJlZ2FyZHMsDQpNZWlsaW5nIENoZW4gDQpGcm9tOiBp bnRlcm5ldC1kcmFmdHMNCkRhdGU6IDIwMTktMDctMDcgMTA6MDkNClRvOiBMaSBTdTsgY2hlbm1l aWxpbmc7IEppbiBQZW5nOyBNZWlsaW5nIENoZW4NClN1YmplY3Q6IE5ldyBWZXJzaW9uIE5vdGlm aWNhdGlvbiBmb3IgZHJhZnQtY2hlbi1kb3RzLXNlcnZlci1oaWVyYXJjaGljYWwtZGVwbG95bWVu dC0wMC50eHQNCiANCkEgbmV3IHZlcnNpb24gb2YgSS1ELCBkcmFmdC1jaGVuLWRvdHMtc2VydmVy LWhpZXJhcmNoaWNhbC1kZXBsb3ltZW50LTAwLnR4dA0KaGFzIGJlZW4gc3VjY2Vzc2Z1bGx5IHN1 Ym1pdHRlZCBieSBNZWlsaW5nIENoZW4gYW5kIHBvc3RlZCB0byB0aGUNCklFVEYgcmVwb3NpdG9y eS4NCiANCk5hbWU6IGRyYWZ0LWNoZW4tZG90cy1zZXJ2ZXItaGllcmFyY2hpY2FsLWRlcGxveW1l bnQNClJldmlzaW9uOiAwMA0KVGl0bGU6IEEgbWV0aG9kIGZvciBkb3RzIHNlcnZlciBkZXBsb3lt ZW50DQpEb2N1bWVudCBkYXRlOiAyMDE5LTA3LTA2DQpHcm91cDogSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJtaXNz aW9uDQpQYWdlczogOA0KVVJMOiAgICAgICAgICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL2ludGVy bmV0LWRyYWZ0cy9kcmFmdC1jaGVuLWRvdHMtc2VydmVyLWhpZXJhcmNoaWNhbC1kZXBsb3ltZW50 LTAwLnR4dA0KU3RhdHVzOiAgICAgICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcvZG9j L2RyYWZ0LWNoZW4tZG90cy1zZXJ2ZXItaGllcmFyY2hpY2FsLWRlcGxveW1lbnQvDQpIdG1saXpl ZDogICAgICAgaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LWNoZW4tZG90cy1zZXJ2 ZXItaGllcmFyY2hpY2FsLWRlcGxveW1lbnQtMDANCkh0bWxpemVkOiAgICAgICBodHRwczovL2Rh dGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LWNoZW4tZG90cy1zZXJ2ZXItaGllcmFy Y2hpY2FsLWRlcGxveW1lbnQNCiANCiANCkFic3RyYWN0Og0KICAgQXMgRE9UUyBpcyB1c2VkIGZv ciBERG9TIE1pdGlnYXRpb24gc2lnbmFsaW5nLCBJbiBwcmFjdGljZSwgdGhlcmUgYXJlDQogICBk aWZmZXJlbnQgZGVwbG95bWVudCBzY2VuYXJpb3MgZm9yIERPVFMgYWdlbnRzIGRlcGxveW1lbnQg ZGVwZW5kaW5nDQogICBvbiB0aGUgbmV0d29yayBkZXBsb3ltZW50IG1vZGUuICBUaGlzIGRvY3Vt ZW50IG1hZGUgYW4gYWNjb21tYW5kYXRpb24NCiAgIGZvciBET1RTIFNlcnZlciBkZXBsb3ltZW50 IHdoaWNoIG1heSBiZSBTdWl0YWJsZSBmb3IgSVNQLiAgVGhlIGdvYWwNCiAgIGlzIHRvIHByb3Zp ZGUgc29tZSBndWlkYW5jZSBmb3IgRE9UUyBhZ2VudHMgZGVwbG95bWVudC4NCiANCiAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICANCiANCiANClBsZWFzZSBub3RlIHRoYXQgaXQgbWF5IHRha2UgYSBj b3VwbGUgb2YgbWludXRlcyBmcm9tIHRoZSB0aW1lIG9mIHN1Ym1pc3Npb24NCnVudGlsIHRoZSBo dG1saXplZCB2ZXJzaW9uIGFuZCBkaWZmIGFyZSBhdmFpbGFibGUgYXQgdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcu DQogDQpUaGUgSUVURiBTZWNyZXRhcmlhdA0KIA0KIA0K ------=_001_NextPart428034102048_=---- Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A
Hi all,
I have submited a draft which some thoughts and suggestions on= dots server deployment are given, 

  • Consider ho= w to deploy between operators and within operators.

  • URL:https://datatracker.ietf= .org/doc/draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment/

Reading and Comments are more than welcome.

Best Regards,
Meiling C= hen 
Date: 2019-07-07 10:09
Subject: New Version Notificat= ion for draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-00.txt
<= /div>
 
=0A
A new version of I-D, draft-chen-dots-s= erver-hierarchical-deployment-00.txt
=0A
has been successfully su= bmitted by Meiling Chen and posted to the
=0A
IETF repository.=0A
 
=0A
Name: draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-= deployment
=0A
Revision: 00
=0A
Title: A method for dot= s server deployment
=0A
Document date: 2019-07-06
=0A
Gr= oup: Individual Submission
=0A
Pages: 8
=0A
URL: =            https://www.i= etf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-00.= txt
=0A
Status:         h= ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deploy= ment/
=0A
Htmlized:       https://t= ools.ietf.org/html/draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-00
= =0A
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.= ietf.org/doc/html/draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment
=0A<= div> 
=0A
 
=0A
Abstract:
=0A
 &= nbsp; As DOTS is used for DDoS Mitigation signaling, In practice, there ar= e
=0A
   different deployment scenarios for DOTS agents= deployment depending
=0A
   on the network deployment = mode.  This document made an accommandation
=0A
  = for DOTS Server deployment which may be Suitable for ISP.  The goal<= /div>=0A
   is to provide some guidance for DOTS agents depl= oyment.
=0A
 
=0A
     &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp; 
=0A
 
=0A
 
=0A
Please not= e that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
= =0A
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.or= g.
=0A
 
=0A
The IETF Secretariat
=0A
&nbs= p;
=0A
 
=0A
------=_001_NextPart428034102048_=------ From nobody Tue Jul 9 05:23:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E599A120146 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 05:23:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uLbhswxDpqoL for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 05:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [23.123.122.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAE45120151 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 05:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06059620A6; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 08:23:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id GsTrxQpR8H54; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 08:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lx140e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7E6B7607B1; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 08:23:14 -0400 (EDT) To: Daniel Migault , dots , frank.xialiang@huawei.com, valery@smyslov.net References: From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: <03a81aa7-58a5-6b44-aaf1-f5daa71d544c@htt-consult.com> Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 08:23:10 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------DA3E51299A10E1D4BE016C70" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] draft-ietf-dots-use-cases / IPR X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 12:23:30 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------DA3E51299A10E1D4BE016C70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To all: I appologize for missing this requirement. As a co-author, I do not know of any IPR related to this document. Robert Moskowitz On 9/26/18 7:38 PM, Daniel Migault wrote: > > Hi co-authors, > > > In order to help preparing the write-up for draft-ietf-dots-use-cases, > we follow the exact same procedure as the data-channel document and > need to answer this question: > > ===== > > (7) Has each author confirmed that any and all appropriate IPR > disclosures required for full conformance with the provisions of BCP > 78 and BCP 79 have already been filed. If not, explain why? > > ===== > > As far as I’m concerned, I don’t hold any IPR nor I’m aware of any > related to this draft. > > Please reply ASAP (keep ccing the WG). > > Yours, > Daniel > > PS: Thank you Med for the template! > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots --------------DA3E51299A10E1D4BE016C70 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To all:

I appologize for missing this requirement.

As a co-author, I do not know of any IPR related to this document.

Robert Moskowitz




On 9/26/18 7:38 PM, Daniel Migault wrote:

Hi co-authors,

 

In order to help preparing the write-up for draft-ietf-dots-use-cases, we follow the exact same procedure as the data-channel document and need to answer this question:

 

=====

(7) Has each author confirmed that any and all appropriate IPR disclosures required for full conformance with the provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79 have already been filed. If not, explain why?

=====

 

As far as I’m concerned, I don’t hold any IPR nor I’m aware of any related to this draft.

 

Please reply ASAP (keep ccing the WG).

 

Yours,
Daniel

PS: Thank you Med for the template!

_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
--------------DA3E51299A10E1D4BE016C70-- From nobody Wed Jul 10 17:45:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF94D120024 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:45:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FHvrlL8qi5zT for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDFD4120052 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 56937C196F098B9C419F for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 01:45:51 +0100 (IST) Received: from lhreml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.53) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 01:45:51 +0100 Received: from lhreml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.53) by lhreml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.53) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1713.5; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 01:45:50 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.210) by lhreml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.53) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 01:45:50 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM511-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.140]) by DGGEMM402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.210]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 08:45:43 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" To: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: DOTS agenda is published: Thread-Index: AdU3gfTTTGZNkB9oSZm0ZzklirHdQw== Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 00:45:43 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.159.76] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7C7C0Cdggemm511mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] DOTS agenda is published: X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 00:45:56 -0000 --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7C7C0Cdggemm511mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, The DOTS WG meeting agenda is published: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeti= ng/105/materials/agenda-105-dots-00 Please review it and prepare your presentation and attendance. If you want any change to it, please let the chairs know asap as well. Thanks! B.R. Valery & Frank --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7C7C0Cdggemm511mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

The DOTS WG meeting agenda is p= ublished: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/agenda-105-dots-00

 

Please review it and prepare yo= ur presentation and attendance.

If you want any change to it, p= lease let the chairs know asap as well.

 

Thanks!

 

B.R.

Valery & Frank

 

--_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7C7C0Cdggemm511mbxchi_-- From nobody Thu Jul 11 17:40:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E3C2120155; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 17:40:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rR0pLOax0zpi; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 17:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24CCE1200C7; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 17:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id x6C0eWE4016834 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 11 Jul 2019 20:40:34 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 19:40:32 -0500 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Daniel Migault Cc: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases.all@ietf.org, dots Message-ID: <20190712004031.GH16418@kduck.mit.edu> References: <20190702223654.GF13810@kduck.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 00:40:42 -0000 On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 04:13:38PM -0400, Daniel Migault wrote: > > c) it was unclear to me how to address the following comment. > > > > The communication between a network administrator and the > > orchestrator is also performed using DOTS. The network administrator > > via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the > > Orchestrator implements a DOTS server. > > > > nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator has a > > web interface. I think "its" is supposed to refer to something else. > > > > > What we are trying to say is that the network administrator sees its web > interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that interface. I have not > made any change to address that concern, as I do not clearly see what is > confusing. > I don't think anyone is actually confused about the meaning; this was just a pedantic comment about the grammar. "its web interface" has to belong to something/someone, and with the current wording we are forced to parse the sentence as "the network administrator's web interface", which is surprising since a network administrator is a human and a web interface is usually provided by a webserver. Perhaps we want to say "The network administrator uses a web interface that implements a DOTS client"? -Ben From nobody Thu Jul 11 20:09:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01ADD120089; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 20:09:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ch-51kvOfkoi; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 20:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAF99120052; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 20:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 54D83F74E4EC4589453D; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 04:09:54 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEMM405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.213) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 04:09:53 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM511-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.140]) by DGGEMM405-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.213]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:08:16 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" To: "draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.org" CC: "dots@ietf.org" , Valery Smyslov Thread-Topic: Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01: Thread-Index: AdU4Xd5vj9xW+DVwTo2s5d/iB7L+dA== Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 03:08:15 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.159.76] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7C878Edggemm511mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01: X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 03:09:59 -0000 --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7C878Edggemm511mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi authors, I have reviewed this new version and have 3 questions as below: 1. I see your proposed offload use case as an variant of DOTS Orchestr= ation use case (section 3.3 of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18). If so, what i= s your propose for this part of content? Do you want to improve the existin= g DOTS use cases WG draft with your addition? 2. Right now, DOTS protocol defines sending DOTS request via signal ch= annel, do you propose to send it via data channel in some situation? If so,= I personally disagree with it, since we originally define signal channel a= nd data channel for different functionalities & messages, we can not send a= ny DOTS messages over wrong channel, like: DOTS request via data channel. 3. In addition to extended offload use case content, I do not see any = new protocol, message or attribute extension comparing to the existing defi= ned DOTS protocols, the left content are just some examples about how you u= se the existing DOTS protocol for your offload use case. So, what do you wa= nt DOTS WG to do for this draft, since there are no new thing here? And be = careful using signal channel call home for your use case, since it is a spe= cial mechanism for near source attack mitigation with DOTS server create TL= S connection with DOTS client, which I don't think it's very suitable for y= our case. Thanks! B.R. Frank --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7C878Edggemm511mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi authors,

I have reviewed this new versio= n and have 3 questions as below:

1.      I see your proposed offload use case as an variant of DOTS Orchestratio= n use case (section 3.3 of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18). If so, what is yo= ur propose for this part of content? Do you want to improve the existing DOTS use cases WG draft with your addi= tion?

2.      Right now, DOTS protocol defines sending DOTS request via signal channe= l, do you propose to send it via data channel in some situation? If so, I p= ersonally disagree with it, since we originally define signal channel and data channel for different functional= ities & messages, we can not send any DOTS messages over wrong channel,= like: DOTS request via data channel.

3.      In addition to extended offload use case content, I do not see any new = protocol, message or attribute extension comparing to the existing defined = DOTS protocols, the left content are just some examples about how you use the existing DOTS protocol for your o= ffload use case. So, what do you want DOTS WG to do for this draft, since t= here are no new thing here? And be careful using signal channel call home f= or your use case, since it is a special mechanism for near source attack mitigation with DOTS server creat= e TLS connection with DOTS client, which I don’t think it’s ver= y suitable for your case.

 

Thanks!

 

B.R.

Frank

 

--_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7C878Edggemm511mbxchi_-- From nobody Thu Jul 11 20:38:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECFE12001E; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 20:38:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7PHPOtGVxbxJ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 20:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1086C120019; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 20:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 42F27F26C3A81E3B80B7; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 04:38:32 +0100 (IST) Received: from lhreml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.58) by lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.47) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 04:38:31 +0100 Received: from lhreml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.58) by lhreml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.58) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1713.5; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 04:38:31 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.212) by lhreml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.58) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 04:38:31 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM511-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.140]) by DGGEMM404-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.212]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:38:25 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" To: "dots@ietf.org" CC: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home.authors@ietf.org" , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: A general question about the near source mitigation and DOTS call home mechanism: Thread-Index: AdU4YWiV0o6ZgW1PTuq0BxDsS/XflA== Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 03:38:25 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.159.76] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7C87BCdggemm511mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] A general question about the near source mitigation and DOTS call home mechanism: X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 03:38:36 -0000 --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7C87BCdggemm511mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, If I am correct, current dots call home draft include 2 main points: 1-dots= server create underlay tls connection with dots client due to the dots ser= ver is located behind home gateway (more generally, DC gateway, cloud gatew= ay, branch gateway, ...); 2-for near source mitigation, dots client should = send the attack source information (address, port, ...) to dots server for = its mitigation. I am wondering why we cannot use the same attack source information of poin= t 2 in the dots signal channel, which aims for the same goal of near source= mitigation? I do see the use cases and requirements for many outbound atta= cks. And it also means the point 1 and 2 of signal channel call home is not= necessary to be combined together always. And should we consider the update of current signal channel WG draft, or ot= her way? Your comments? B.R. Frank --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7C87BCdggemm511mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

If I am correct, current dots c= all home draft include 2 main points: 1—dots server create underlay t= ls connection with dots client due to the dots server is located behind hom= e gateway (more generally, DC gateway, cloud gateway, branch gateway, …); 2—for near source mitigation, dot= s client should send the attack source information (address, port, …)= to dots server for its mitigation.

 

I am wondering why we cannot us= e the same attack source information of point 2 in the dots signal channel,= which aims for the same goal of near source mitigation? I do see the use c= ases and requirements for many outbound attacks. And it also means the point 1 and 2 of signal channel call home i= s not necessary to be combined together always.

 

And should we consider the upda= te of current signal channel WG draft, or other way?

 

Your comments?

 

B.R.

Frank

--_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7C87BCdggemm511mbxchi_-- From nobody Thu Jul 11 22:01:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61A9D1200F8; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:01:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.703 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.703 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0EvaI_m4GQow; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x135.google.com (mail-lf1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5AEC120077; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:01:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x135.google.com with SMTP id q26so5566903lfc.3; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:01:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0DYwilipjCBnjpvDUnx7wkEQkZMsx4vKG/lw+j2pEZY=; b=rxWjv1Jl6+urOAPUAn3tnQUNOYvL1AX9xGGnQVdGqHaNtyLikYT48/chfqEh6HCEEi NIbuwyVEcAlpFV0DTzX3dIk6+klDshiJJXaO1ZHx1rMUYAD+4EB/FAiNapDKluerxflv cIHqj2AuewrGtSvDqprN6GUD5vFKCXzVytgYB+zR36T57DTkT7C0fECAbnezUS+dHUTz BlgvoFroXlGmPZFL1pUV7UFmD5Uzyw7D+bdiKUt+vy4FPdfSaY70e9q+EnrlFSfL3r4v J69Q/adZt/5hI5sGytOYN16RlIU6thp/ibytEQPRtr5J5ViYZdCNwbgoT3wz14+SKqaH 0lJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0DYwilipjCBnjpvDUnx7wkEQkZMsx4vKG/lw+j2pEZY=; b=fdiUm4KhMcwx3xzrs+ZVwtWyIOtZAUB07LE+ylyhpeNrHY9Q5cLl4PkOtYiATgcYxN JUIta1wRZ+H3GW3w5BbDPpTfWIGw9sJKscY4d3fLV8nHwH9XzdaDd8g8FT+q6cfiaaOG y5WW6yEADjViw5rIse0KaocGYawPYhO9s0p8VFJkeV8eKAzKTZGJ6D/myPkNmQWybu3a DDDcEGvK9fV5YGasCls/GuUS63LsgF7CEn1MSh0ml6FhKWHsywQH3icHeX9qFloEimBf +ZH+1o3vcbxefQ7ZRGwVRm1AupRP48ZtRXR4NkhPPC60FpqQFuNXMv7EDyHZCQiz7rl+ M+uA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUIfBrJmebmH/fPAgtsVlnZ96e1/4rkm2ZW4heckWNLYCAaS6rY R1I7b7eVxIGKxQLNiY9+DBYyUHmhBsuWa8l4qmA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzhlAiA8pazudYFm/nKes3xpUhU4tO94trMT37fRxzs06k8i9aXpCmaqJndWvtx4wJUIEfkU9FArUrQrSzAc5U= X-Received: by 2002:a19:ed07:: with SMTP id y7mr3850211lfy.56.1562907690033; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:01:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: H Y Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:59:59 +0900 Message-ID: To: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" Cc: "draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.org" , Valery Smyslov , "dots@ietf.org" , neshi-nwsec-p-ml@hco.ntt.co.jp Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01: X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:01:38 -0000 Hi Frank, Thank you for reviewing my draft :-) Please see inline. > 1. I see your proposed offload use case as an variant of DOTS Orchestrat= ion use case (section 3.3 of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18). [hayashi]Yes, that's right. > If so, what is your propose for this part of content? Do you want to impr= ove the existing DOTS use cases WG draft with your addition? [hayashi]Yes, I want to add our use case to improve the DOTS orchestration use cases. About the DOTS orchestration use case in current use cases WG draft, DMS doesn't have DOTS client function. IMO, it's effective that DMSs send blocked information to an orchestrator via standardized IF and the orchestrator carries out some action in the network. At IETF 104, I proposed to add our use case to improve the DOTS orchestration use cases, however, I could not do it because the use case WG draft now is in Publication Requested status. Some people gave me the advice to include DOTS deployment consideration to my draft, so I update my draft based on the comments. Please see IETF104 minute https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-104-dots= / > 2. Right now, DOTS protocol defines sending DOTS request via signal = channel, do you propose to send it via data channel in some situation? If s= o, I personally disagree with it, since we originally define signal channel= and data channel for different functionalities & messages, we can not send= any DOTS messages over wrong channel, like: DOTS request via data channel. [hayashi] After I submitted draft-h-dots-mitigation-offload-expansion-00, some people gave me comments not to use signal channel but to use data channel via out-of band because link b/w the DMS and Orchestrator won't be congested under attack time. Please see the mail thread [Dots] draft-h-dots-mitigation-offload-expansion-00: Reasons why we want to standardize between DMS and orchestrator using DOTS Current data channel has the capability to send filtering rules immediately, so I think it can be used to send blocked information from DMS to Orchestrator. If the signal channel has the capability to convey the attacker's information, the signal channel can be also used to send it to form DMS to Orchestrator. > 3. In addition to extended offload use case content, I do not see an= y new protocol, message or attribute extension comparing to the existing de= fined DOTS protocols, the left content are just some examples about how you= use the existing DOTS protocol for your offload use case. So, what do you = want DOTS WG to do for this draft, since there are no new thing here? [hayashi] This draft requires that ... - It's effective that DMS have DOTS client function in DOTS orchestration use case. - It's effective that signal channel has the capability to send src informa= tion. For example, it's useful and feasible to send src port information via the DOTS signal channel to request mitigation against reflection attack. > And be careful using signal channel call home for your use case, since it= is a special mechanism for near source attack mitigation with DOTS server = create TLS connection with DOTS client, which I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2= =80=99s very suitable for your case. Thank you for giving me comments. Could I define another signal channel expansion to send src information via signal channel? Thanks, Yuhei 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 12:10 Xialiang (Frank, Networ= k Standard & Patent Dept) : > > Hi authors, > > I have reviewed this new version and have 3 questions as below: > > 1. I see your proposed offload use case as an variant of DOTS Orches= tration use case (section 3.3 of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18). If so, what= is your propose for this part of content? Do you want to improve the exist= ing DOTS use cases WG draft with your addition? > > 2. Right now, DOTS protocol defines sending DOTS request via signal = channel, do you propose to send it via data channel in some situation? If s= o, I personally disagree with it, since we originally define signal channel= and data channel for different functionalities & messages, we can not send= any DOTS messages over wrong channel, like: DOTS request via data channel. > > 3. In addition to extended offload use case content, I do not see an= y new protocol, message or attribute extension comparing to the existing de= fined DOTS protocols, the left content are just some examples about how you= use the existing DOTS protocol for your offload use case. So, what do you = want DOTS WG to do for this draft, since there are no new thing here? And b= e careful using signal channel call home for your use case, since it is a s= pecial mechanism for near source attack mitigation with DOTS server create = TLS connection with DOTS client, which I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s v= ery suitable for your case. > > > > Thanks! > > > > B.R. > > Frank > > > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots --=20 ---------------------------------- Yuuhei HAYASHI 08065300884 yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp ---------------------------------- From nobody Thu Jul 11 22:24:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50493120168; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:24:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hdnasNRy-94p; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF87212011B; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar00.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.11]) by opfedar25.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45lLw13tSwz8tF9; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 07:24:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.26]) by opfedar00.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45lLw12n5NzCqjy; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 07:24:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 07:24:49 +0200 From: To: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" , "dots@ietf.org" CC: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home.authors@ietf.org" , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: A general question about the near source mitigation and DOTS call home mechanism: Thread-Index: AdU4YWiV0o6ZgW1PTuq0BxDsS/XflAAD0NKQ Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:24:49 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACACA3@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACACA3OPEXCAUBMA2corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] A general question about the near source mitigation and DOTS call home mechanism: X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:24:57 -0000 --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACACA3OPEXCAUBMA2corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Franck, The source information can be used in the DOTS signal channel. The I-D says= the following: This specification extends the mitigation request defined in Section 4.4.1 of [I-D.ietf-dots-signal-channel] t= o convey the attacker source prefixes and source port numbers. augment /ietf-signal:dots-signal/ietf-signal:message-type /ietf-signal:mitigation-scope/ietf-signal:scope: +--rw source-prefix* inet:ip-prefix {source-signaling}? +--rw source-port-range* [lower-port] {source-signaling}? | +--rw lower-port inet:port-number | +--rw upper-port? inet:port-number +--rw source-icmp-type-range* | [lower-type] {source-signaling}? +--rw lower-type uint8 +--rw upper-type? uint8 The attributes are optional for the DOTS signal channel: This is an optional attribute for the base DOTS signal channel operations [I-D.ietf-dots-signal-channel]. while some of them are mandatory for the call home: The 'source-prefix' parameter is a mandatory attribute when the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ attack traffic information is signaled by a DOTS client in the Call ^^^^ Home scenario (depicted in Figure 2). ^^^^ Cheers, Med De : Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept) [mailto:frank.xialian= g@huawei.com] Envoy=E9 : vendredi 12 juillet 2019 05:38 =C0 : dots@ietf.org Cc : draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home.authors@ietf.org; dots-chairs@ietf.or= g Objet : A general question about the near source mitigation and DOTS call h= ome mechanism: Hi all, If I am correct, current dots call home draft include 2 main points: 1-dots= server create underlay tls connection with dots client due to the dots ser= ver is located behind home gateway (more generally, DC gateway, cloud gatew= ay, branch gateway, ...); 2-for near source mitigation, dots client should = send the attack source information (address, port, ...) to dots server for = its mitigation. I am wondering why we cannot use the same attack source information of poin= t 2 in the dots signal channel, which aims for the same goal of near source= mitigation? I do see the use cases and requirements for many outbound atta= cks. And it also means the point 1 and 2 of signal channel call home is not= necessary to be combined together always. And should we consider the update of current signal channel WG draft, or ot= her way? Your comments? B.R. Frank --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACACA3OPEXCAUBMA2corp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Franck,

 

The source information can be u= sed in the DOTS signal channel. The I-D says the following:

 

   This specification extends the mitig=
ation request defined in
   Section 4.4.1 of [I-D.ietf-dots-signal-channel] to convey=
 the
   attacker source prefixes and source =
port numbers.

 

     augment /ietf-signal:dot=
s-signal/ietf-signal:message-type
        &=
nbsp;    /ietf-signal:mitigation-scope/ietf-signal:scope:
       +--rw so=
urce-prefix*     inet:ip-prefix {source-signaling}?
       +=
--rw source-port-range* [lower-port] {source-signaling}?
       |  +--rw lower-port =
;   inet:port-number
       |  +--rw upper-port?&nbs=
p;  inet:port-number
       +--rw source-icmp-type-range*=

          |  &n=
bsp;            =
;     [lower-type] {source-signaling}?
          +--rw lower-type    uint8
        &=
nbsp; +--rw upper-type?   uint8

 

The attributes are optional for= the DOTS signal channel:

 

      This is an optiona=
l attribute for the base DOTS signal channel
      operations [I-D.ietf-dots-signal-channel].

 

while some of them are mandator= y for the call home:

 

   The 'source-prefix' parameter is a m=
andatory attribute when the
        &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;            &=
nbsp;    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

   attack traffic information is signal=
ed by a DOTS client in the Call


        &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;            &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;            &=
nbsp;       ^^^^


   Home scenario (depicted in Figure 2)=
.


   ^^^^


 


Cheers,


Med


 








De : Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard &=
; Patent Dept) [mailto:frank.xialiang@huawei.com]


Envoy=E9 : vendredi 12 juillet 2019 05:38

=C0 : dots@ietf.org

Cc : draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home.authors@ietf.org; dots-ch=
airs@ietf.org

Objet : A general question about the near source mitigation and=
 DOTS call home mechanism:






 =



Hi all,


If I am correct, current dots call home draft include 2 main points: =
1—dots server create underlay tls connection with dots client due to =
the dots server is located behind home gateway
 (more generally, DC gateway, cloud gateway, branch gateway, …); 2=
212;for near source mitigation, dots client should send the attack source i=
nformation (address, port, …) to dots server for its mitigation.=



 


I am wondering why we cannot use the same attack source information o=
f point 2 in the dots signal channel, which aims for the same goal of near =
source mitigation? I do see the use cases
 and requirements for many outbound attacks. And it also means the point 1 =
and 2 of signal channel call home is not necessary to be combined together =
always.


 


And should we consider the update of current signal channel WG draft,=
 or other way?


 


Your comments?


 


B.R.


Frank
--_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACACA3OPEXCAUBMA2corp_-- From nobody Thu Jul 11 22:38:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C78CA12016B; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:38:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5ufCMv_JEBdF; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27B38120104; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr06.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.70]) by opfednr26.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45lMCF3Rjnzywt; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 07:38:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.29]) by opfednr06.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45lMCF31NfzDq75; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 07:38:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::d42b:2e80:86c2:5905%18]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 07:38:01 +0200 From: To: H Y , "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" CC: "draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.org" , Valery Smyslov , "dots@ietf.org" , "neshi-nwsec-p-ml@hco.ntt.co.jp" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01: Thread-Index: AdU4Xd5vj9xW+DVwTo2s5d/iB7L+dAAAAXSAAAUphyA= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:38:01 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACACC9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01: X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:38:06 -0000 RnJhbmNrLA0KDQpBbiBpbXBvcnRhbnQgY29udHJpYnV0aW9uIGZyb20gdGhpcyBkcmFmdCBpcyB0 byBhc3Nlc3MgdG8gd2hhdCBleHRlbnQgY3VycmVudCBET1RTIHNwZWNzIGNhbiBiZSBhcHBsaWVk IGluIGEgcGFydGljdWxhciBkZXBsb3ltZW50IGNvbnRleHQgYW5kIHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIHZvaWQs IHdoaWxlIHRoZSB1c2UgY2FzZSBkcmFmdCB3YXMgZG9uZSB0byBkcml2ZSB0aGUgc3BlY2lmaWNh dGlvbi4gDQoNClRoZXJlIGlzIElNTyBhIG5lZWQgZm9yIGFuIGVmZm9ydCB0byBzb2NpYWxpemUg RE9UUyBhbmQgZXhlbXBsaWZ5IGhvdyBpdCBjYW4gYmUgdXNlZCBpbiB2YXJpb3VzIGRlcGxveW1l bnQgY29udGV4dHMuIFRoaXMgZHJhZnQgaXMgYSBjb250cmlidXRpb24gaW4gdGhhdCBhaW0uDQoN CkJUVywgSSdtIG5vdCBzdXJlIHRvIHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgdGhpcyBjb21tZW50Og0KDQo+IEFuZCBi ZSBjYXJlZnVsIHVzaW5nIHNpZ25hbCBjaGFubmVsIGNhbGwgaG9tZSBmb3IgeW91ciB1c2UgY2Fz ZSwgc2luY2UgaXQgaXMgYSBzcGVjaWFsIG1lY2hhbmlzbSBmb3IgbmVhciBzb3VyY2UgYXR0YWNr IG1pdGlnYXRpb24gd2l0aCBET1RTIHNlcnZlciBjcmVhdGUgVExTIGNvbm5lY3Rpb24gd2l0aCBE 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cw0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiAtLQ0KPiAtLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t DQo+IFl1dWhlaSBIQVlBU0hJDQo+IDA4MDY1MzAwODg0DQo+IHl1dWhlaS5oYXlhc2hpQGdtYWls LmNvbQ0KPiBpZWh1dXlfMDIyMEBkb2NvbW8ubmUuanANCj4gLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0K From nobody Thu Jul 11 22:55:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08FE9120052; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:55:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G9p_dhGVZM-K; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45C4B120048; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 72B8920CEE5FB6A5CAAD; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:55:49 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEMM422-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.39) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:55:46 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM511-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.140]) by dggemm422-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.198.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:54:18 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "dots@ietf.org" CC: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home.authors@ietf.org" , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: A general question about the near source mitigation and DOTS call home mechanism: Thread-Index: AdU4YWiV0o6ZgW1PTuq0BxDsS/XflAAD0NKQAAEiEIA= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:54:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACACA3@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACACA3@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.159.76] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7C8896dggemm511mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBBIGdlbmVyYWwgcXVlc3Rpb24gYWJvdXQg?= =?utf-8?q?the_near_source_mitigation_and_DOTS_call_home_mechanism=3A?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM5E.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 08:13:34 +0200 From: To: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" , "dots@ietf.org" CC: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home.authors@ietf.org" , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: A general question about the near source mitigation and DOTS call home mechanism: Thread-Index: AdU4YWiV0o6ZgW1PTuq0BxDsS/XflAAD0NKQAAEiEIAAALQ9YA== Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:13:34 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACAD3D@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACACA3@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACAD3DOPEXCAUBMA2corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] A general question about the near source mitigation and DOTS call home mechanism: X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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AdU4drc3kJSvluH1S52+pXatmcOeWA== Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:12:44 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.159.76] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?we_can_consider_update_current_DOTS_use_cases_d?= =?utf-8?b?cmFmdCB0byByZWZsZWN0IHlvdXIgY2FzZTovL+etlOWkjTogIEhpLCBhdXRo?= =?utf-8?q?ors=2C_3_questions_on_draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01?= =?utf-8?q?=3A?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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hvRtX1i4q1YpyT6hD4z+vVKtS1d9jx75h01bOwQJT3IX0Q2fPnjh+PFYm5vlJYgKKybJNxflewVTKyWFiSbY//wiXp1FfsNc9xlrlo+1XK4+lsDM7H92R1gbe/V4OoSEaVqg7xeD+MlbgK3Ssmcb0TKuFOnxfCEy7z3GmB1qanoLwcZ+4yfQCa97xqrY0xZZpCMtxP3mxYfF/klCbzB6YOb/TDBQXosLuPYDbsyK92oRGAdPN+JPAiTuo4RiK7PWJIzqDO8YphhCmCMm5qYeILyS0qgR5bRppkQ9hW/7UMlLshj6CY40l7EBrbN8HN7pMvzAPzUB4eR80OzgISKbA0/ozUFNnm5yW0FLZDGN3/RWBg/0BiG7PIMnoNDkx0iIjDL4bceuxOjnL8JRoShUMMJN2G5EKwQwLJWIi3ixT2s= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 538bd035-b66f-4ade-7bc3-08d706909ec4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 12 Jul 2019 06:17:30.3017 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4943e38c-6dd4-428c-886d-24932bc2d5de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR16MB1403 X-OriginatorOrg: mcafee.com X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 15 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9418 : core <6588> : inlines <7118> : streams <1827111> : uri <2866626> X-MC-Unique: VI800ElRNhanoA5Sv6WZSA-1 X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DM5PR16MB1705EB5E892DE2946DD8B447EAF20DM5PR16MB1705namp_" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] A general question about the near source mitigation and DOTS call home mechanism: X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE5F6120052; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 23:21:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zRE09cdS4fh2; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 23:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D5B4120048; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 23:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 6D2B22595BF5C54D603A; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 07:21:11 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEMM406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.214) by lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.48) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 07:21:10 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM511-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.140]) by DGGEMM406-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.214]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:21:07 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "dots@ietf.org" CC: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home.authors@ietf.org" , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: A general question about the near source mitigation and DOTS call home mechanism: Thread-Index: AdU4YWiV0o6ZgW1PTuq0BxDsS/XflAAD0NKQAAEiEIAAALQ9YAAAe78A Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:21:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACACA3@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACAD3D@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACAD3D@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.159.76] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7C88E3dggemm511mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBBIGdlbmVyYWwgcXVlc3Rpb24gYWJvdXQg?= =?utf-8?q?the_near_source_mitigation_and_DOTS_call_home_mechanism=3A?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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PG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gbGFuZz0i RU4tVVMiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwi PjxzcGFuIGxhbmc9IkVOLVVTIj5CLlIuPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9 Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gbGFuZz0iRU4tVVMiPkZyYW5rPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9w Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7C88E3dggemm511mbxchi_-- From nobody Thu Jul 11 23:23:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D07B120098; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 23:23:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rv2qZoD6w1Mj; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 23:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A855D120048; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 23:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr03.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.67]) by opfednr24.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45lNC56VjQz1yYS; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 08:22:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.35]) by opfednr03.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45lNC55G2kzDq7p; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 08:22:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM6C.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::f58e:8e9d:ae18:b9e3%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 08:22:57 +0200 From: To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" , "dots@ietf.org" CC: "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home.authors@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: A general question about the near source mitigation and DOTS call home mechanism: Thread-Index: AdU4YWiV0o6ZgW1PTuq0BxDsS/XflAAD0NKQAAEiEIAAANuLAAAARGFg Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:22:57 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACAD8E@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACACA3@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACAD8EOPEXCAUBMA2corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] A general question about the near source mitigation and DOTS call home mechanism: X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:23:04 -0000 --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACAD8EOPEXCAUBMA2corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgVGlydSwNCg0KQWdyZWUuIFRoaXMgaXMgd2h5IHNyYy0qIGFyZSBub3QgY29uc2lkZXJlZCBh cyBwYXJ0IG9mIHRoZSBpbml0aWFsIHNldCBvZiBhdHRyaWJ1dGVzIGRlZmluZWQgaW4gdGhlIGJh c2Ugc3BlYy4NCg0KTmV2ZXJ0aGVsZXNzLCB0aGVyZSBhcmUgc2NlbmFyaW9zIHdoZXJlIGEgbGlt aXRlZCBudW1iZXIgb2Ygc291cmNlcyBjYW4gYmUgaW5jbHVkZWQgZXZlbiBmb3IgdGhlIGJhc2Ug c2lnbmFsIGNoYW5uZWwuIEFuIGV4YW1wbGUgaXMgZGlzY3Vzc2VkIGluIGRyYWZ0LWhheWFzaGkt ZG90cy1kbXMtb2ZmbG9hZC11c2VjYXNlLg0KDQpDaGVlcnMsDQpNZWQNCg0KRGUgOiBLb25kYSwg VGlydW1hbGVzd2FyIFJlZGR5IFttYWlsdG86VGlydW1hbGVzd2FyUmVkZHlfS29uZGFATWNBZmVl LmNvbV0NCkVudm95w6kgOiB2ZW5kcmVkaSAxMiBqdWlsbGV0IDIwMTkgMDg6MTgNCsOAIDogWGlh bGlhbmcgKEZyYW5rLCBOZXR3b3JrIFN0YW5kYXJkICYgUGF0ZW50IERlcHQpOyBCT1VDQURBSVIg 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"draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.org" , Valery Smyslov , "dots@ietf.org" , "neshi-nwsec-p-ml@hco.ntt.co.jp" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01: Thread-Index: AdU4Xd5vj9xW+DVwTo2s5d/iB7L+dP//m3aAgAAKoID//3AtkA== Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:20:15 +0000 Message-ID: References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACACC9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACACC9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.159.76] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgSGksIGF1dGhvcnMsIDMgcXVlc3Rpb25z?= =?utf-8?q?_on_draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01=3A?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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DQo+ID4NCj4gPg0KPiA+IEIuUi4NCj4gPg0KPiA+IEZyYW5rDQo+ID4NCj4gPg0KPiA+DQo+ID4g X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gPiBEb3Rz IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiA+IERvdHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9y Zy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2RvdHMNCj4gDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gLS0NCj4gLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KPiBZdXVoZWkgSEFZQVNISQ0KPiAwODA2NTMwMDg4NA0K PiB5dXVoZWkuaGF5YXNoaUBnbWFpbC5jb20NCj4gaWVodXV5XzAyMjBAZG9jb21vLm5lLmpwDQo+ IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCg== From nobody Thu Jul 11 23:27:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33652120052; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 23:27:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pnzR2-J_-GTo; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 23:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E011120048; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 23:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 5DBEEDBABA59A3BD404C; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 07:27:33 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEMM403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.211) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 07:27:32 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM511-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.140]) by DGGEMM403-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.211]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:27:26 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "dots@ietf.org" CC: "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home.authors@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: A general question about the near source mitigation and DOTS call home mechanism: Thread-Index: AdU4YWiV0o6ZgW1PTuq0BxDsS/XflAAD0NKQAAEiEIAAANuLAAAARGFgAABEIiA= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:27:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACACA3@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACAD8E@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACAD8E@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.159.76] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7C890Fdggemm511mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBBIGdlbmVyYWwgcXVlc3Rpb24gYWJvdXQg?= =?utf-8?q?the_near_source_mitigation_and_DOTS_call_home_mechanism=3A?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:27:39 -0000 --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7C890Fdggemm511mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksDQpHb3QgeW91ciBwb2ludHMgYW5kIGFncmVlLg0KDQpUaGFua3MhDQoNCkIuUi4NCkZyYW5r DQoNCuWPkeS7tuS6ujogbW9oYW1lZC5ib3VjYWRhaXJAb3JhbmdlLmNvbSBbbWFpbHRvOm1vaGFt ZWQuYm91Y2FkYWlyQG9yYW5nZS5jb21dDQrlj5HpgIHml7bpl7Q6IDIwMTnlubQ35pyIMTLml6Ug MTQ6MjMNCuaUtuS7tuS6ujogS29uZGEsIFRpcnVtYWxlc3dhciBSZWRkeSA8VGlydW1hbGVzd2Fy UmVkZHlfS29uZGFATWNBZmVlLmNvbT47IFhpYWxpYW5nIChGcmFuaywgTmV0d29yayBTdGFuZGFy ZCAmIFBhdGVudCBEZXB0KSA8ZnJhbmsueGlhbGlhbmdAaHVhd2VpLmNvbT47IGRvdHNAaWV0Zi5v cmcNCuaKhOmAgTogZG90cy1jaGFpcnNAaWV0Zi5vcmc7IGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtZG90cy1zaWduYWwt Y2FsbC1ob21lLmF1dGhvcnNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCuS4u+mimDogUkU6IEEgZ2VuZXJhbCBxdWVzdGlv biBhYm91dCB0aGUgbmVhciBzb3VyY2UgbWl0aWdhdGlvbiBhbmQgRE9UUyBjYWxsIGhvbWUgbWVj 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RU4tVVMiPkIuUi48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48 c3BhbiBsYW5nPSJFTi1VUyI+RnJhbms8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwv ZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7C890Fdggemm511mbxchi_-- From nobody Thu Jul 11 23:27:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE851203C1; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 23:27:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oSdzYl-_6gWV; Thu, 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"draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.org" , Valery Smyslov , "dots@ietf.org" , "neshi-nwsec-p-ml@hco.ntt.co.jp" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01: Thread-Index: AdU4Xd5vj9xW+DVwTo2s5d/iB7L+dP//m3aAgAAKoID//3AtkP/+3WUA Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:27:44 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACADB4@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACACC9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01: X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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(IST) Received: from NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.74) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 07:41:13 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.66]) by NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:36:56 +0800 From: "Panwei (William)" To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" , H Y CC: "draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.org" , Valery Smyslov , "dots@ietf.org" , "neshi-nwsec-p-ml@hco.ntt.co.jp" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01: Thread-Index: AQHVOHr3Oc/8Lrt640yrc86ykd4NzKbGhvRQ Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:36:56 +0000 Message-ID: <30E95A901DB42F44BA42D69DB20DFA6A69FAD716@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACACC9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACADB4@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACADB4@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.37.117] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01: X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Pm9ocD6V2vWKp86gI1R0AasTRsxPy0N0xjH5RZRZHyA=; b=AXlDcpfDB7sf/V9kwq1N/vtUr5kIFGTWAEToIWzTSimYIoMq0/H4MM90S2USr9AXCf WjHWNAAxFHO5ISMp6gaiaoaagaZTjlxww/Q4utHX1mZ7jBzloMp4i9mt+7Z5yAZE2NLG x5I8NjEoKh/6kULkvRt54Hj1J2+pSZJvQj3aFarKsYPOQPHvLe5bI0FIz61VmPzLMBA3 KbKCtcYhyj0fadS4CtjrrciCELkDuDaJGy3X4GuVgTmKLViJwbsnEz2zf2j6LNN9jL2v SXXQ16SKM+ZITuBisrgEJ4QgA5DTE1x0Xrh8LITJUVloYPcmlIdj9NGb1w0VAyaLn+Ev wp+g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Pm9ocD6V2vWKp86gI1R0AasTRsxPy0N0xjH5RZRZHyA=; b=j1TgYCVsSCRf/jVCJTsoaaxCA02FKURRnnSgYEnjHBIlBnvxK13fPxosO1GXV96A2w bi03OL1u8t27MMGSEge4tKWirF+nd+RVoHU8m3JVCXelPap37qsjIF1fbtVqWxAPPsjV 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=?utf-8?q?we_can_consider_update_current_DOTS_use_cases_d?= =?utf-8?b?cmFmdCB0byByZWZsZWN0IHlvdXIgY2FzZTovL+etlOWkjTogSGksIGF1dGhv?= =?utf-8?q?rs=2C_3_questions_on_draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01?= =?utf-8?q?=3A?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 07:04:44 -0000 Hi Frank, Please see inline. 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 15:15 Xialiang (Frank, Networ= k Standard & Patent Dept) : > > Hi Yuhei, > Thanks for quick and clear clarification. > > See inline: > > And in summary from my side, the only thing we may need to do according t= o your proposal is to update the DOTS use cases draft to reflect your new c= ase: " It's effective that DMS have DOTS client function in DOTS orchestrat= ion use case ". > But we welcome more discussions. [hayashi] Thanks. I would like to contact use case authors asap. And I would like to discuss more at IETF 105. > > B.R. > Frank > > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: H Y [mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com] > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5 = 13:00 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent D= ept) > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.o= rg; Valery Smyslov ; dots@ietf.org; neshi-nwsec-p-ml@hc= o.ntt.co.jp > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-= dots-dms-offload-usecase-01: > > Hi Frank, > > Thank you for reviewing my draft :-) > Please see inline. > > > 1. I see your proposed offload use case as an variant of DOTS Orchestr= ation use case (section 3.3 of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18). > [hayashi]Yes, that's right. > > > If so, what is your propose for this part of content? Do you want to im= prove the existing DOTS use cases WG draft with your addition? > [hayashi]Yes, I want to add our use case to improve the DOTS orchestratio= n use cases. > About the DOTS orchestration use case in current use cases WG draft, DMS = doesn't have DOTS client function. > IMO, it's effective that DMSs send blocked information to an orchestrator= via standardized IF and the orchestrator carries out some action in the ne= twork. > > At IETF 104, I proposed to add our use case to improve the DOTS orchestra= tion use cases, however, I could not do it because the use case WG draft no= w is in Publication Requested status. > Some people gave me the advice to include DOTS deployment consideration t= o my draft, so I update my draft based on the comments. > > Please see IETF104 minute https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-104-do= ts/ > > [Frank]: So, I suggest you to contact with DOTS use cases draft authors a= bout this proposal asap, since it's in the AD Evaluation status and I think= your improvement is just a minor part. [hayashi] Thank you for giving me advice. I would like to do so. > > > 2. Right now, DOTS protocol defines sending DOTS request via signa= l channel, do you propose to send it via data channel in some situation? If= so, I personally disagree with it, since we originally define signal chann= el and data channel for different functionalities & messages, we can not se= nd any DOTS messages over wrong channel, like: DOTS request via data channe= l. > [hayashi] After I submitted > draft-h-dots-mitigation-offload-expansion-00, some people gave me commen= ts not to use signal channel but to use data channel via out-of band becaus= e link b/w the DMS and Orchestrator won't be congested under attack time. > > Please see the mail thread [Dots] > draft-h-dots-mitigation-offload-expansion-00: Reasons why we want to stan= dardize between DMS and orchestrator using DOTS > > Current data channel has the capability to send filtering rules immediate= ly, so I think it can be used to send blocked information from DMS to Orche= strator. > If the signal channel has the capability to convey the attacker's informa= tion, the signal channel can be also used to send it to form DMS to Orchest= rator. > > [Frank]: sending acl filtering rules via DOTS data channel is ok. [hayashi] Thanks. > > > 3. In addition to extended offload use case content, I do not see = any new protocol, message or attribute extension comparing to the existing = defined DOTS protocols, the left content are just some examples about how y= ou use the existing DOTS protocol for your offload use case. So, what do yo= u want DOTS WG to do for this draft, since there are no new thing here? > [hayashi] This draft requires that ... > - It's effective that DMS have DOTS client function in DOTS orchestration= use case. > > [Frank]: this is not excluded in current DOTS architecture, just lack of = clear text of this point. You can discuss this point with use cases draft a= uthors. [hayashi] OK. > > - It's effective that signal channel has the capability to send src infor= mation. > For example, it's useful and feasible to send src port information via th= e DOTS signal channel to request mitigation against reflection attack. > > [Frank]: DOTS signal channel call home draft has already specified it. No= more needs to be done. [hayashi] OK. > > > And be careful using signal channel call home for your use case, since = it is a special mechanism for near source attack mitigation with DOTS serve= r create TLS connection with DOTS client, which I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2= =80=99s very suitable for your case. > Thank you for giving me comments. Could I define another signal channel e= xpansion to send src information via signal channel? > > [Frank]: I think it's not necessary. You can see my discussion with Med a= bout the same thing just now in: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots= /hRd3BRTUjXx5roIS2jJ6UXzTny4 [hayashi] OK. Thanks, Yuhei > > Thanks, > Yuhei > > 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 12:10 Xialiang (Frank, Netw= ork Standard & Patent Dept) > : > > > > Hi authors, > > > > I have reviewed this new version and have 3 questions as below: > > > > 1. I see your proposed offload use case as an variant of DOTS Orch= estration use case (section 3.3 of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18). If so, wh= at is your propose for this part of content? Do you want to improve the exi= sting DOTS use cases WG draft with your addition? > > > > 2. Right now, DOTS protocol defines sending DOTS request via signa= l channel, do you propose to send it via data channel in some situation? If= so, I personally disagree with it, since we originally define signal chann= el and data channel for different functionalities & messages, we can not se= nd any DOTS messages over wrong channel, like: DOTS request via data channe= l. > > > > 3. In addition to extended offload use case content, I do not see = any new protocol, message or attribute extension comparing to the existing = defined DOTS protocols, the left content are just some examples about how y= ou use the existing DOTS protocol for your offload use case. So, what do yo= u want DOTS WG to do for this draft, since there are no new thing here? And= be careful using signal channel call home for your use case, since it is a= special mechanism for near source attack mitigation with DOTS server creat= e TLS connection with DOTS client, which I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s= very suitable for your case. > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > B.R. > > > > Frank > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Dots mailing list > > Dots@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > > > -- > ---------------------------------- > Yuuhei HAYASHI > 08065300884 > yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com > iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp > ---------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots --=20 ---------------------------------- Yuuhei HAYASHI 08065300884 yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp ---------------------------------- From nobody Fri Jul 12 00:57:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B920C120128; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 00:57:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.703 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.703 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TE_trD_fga3N; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 00:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12d.google.com (mail-lf1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD5DA120096; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 00:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id q26so5839758lfc.3; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 00:57:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Q70LDuykITnWyLhlrgsXoSsBYHwCxzc/dnIbAAVgG2o=; b=ttuJ0kwNh1EbgX6J00A9tkN4lB45g15kydT1iBXbXLCJ5PkQxo0xrCtacaAaY3qVCX TX67hNSlqT6olQrjfeHMsbp5TbDz5z43sAOBTPdxeNLpf1vmFtBKU907dJnN8SuFnHvE tv5rcdlcmgR+QfUVchTNN4U1IudtISWWN5HyirOen3uSOYeCZouCFr0fQu170qcyQNvM eMn36Lm+bdVxooBFtKflVAKjpWejosah54J+RrrKUC26ZD7jj6VMbqGp7q6DNyObpksf 4VRvkUTKMcJ5GS9LHkoduwo77rarJKs3ihuzmNttKuWnlVWP6sqr8pfZY8rCN6SL5aHy 4x9g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Q70LDuykITnWyLhlrgsXoSsBYHwCxzc/dnIbAAVgG2o=; b=QJrvcLazJs5NjTFREdkgtMhfxje5gY0JvUgWF+nGymi484saNCN9MEcEmoFiWRJDrS /jgIXUcgUwHyv6IsOiKz4+I2d7IuA7oa6/d39FQbwvKQJwPnaj8ubB89WuXVsRdWxFz9 b6MYLs1OXzhFLGctoC3Bq03GRXNZr9UnXWvXS72BLIguz5ebwLSYkuqE5THv+Wy1WveJ J8h1ALgHYLxYFtJ4wQmrxfdr1pE54Wm9rQUXLsJaJ2pHzWi0zTLguOMhQthE/gkxG6Y0 X+Dfoqd1AAcgmZRGiKOnucvLvWYNgtX16+uyZ9oNjLdLcmEuCdroUOIFRcANmdE1rt7x xYlw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVUC6Ciy6ayWDHbMmPsOxbn59/T5jEH9yEtCv30LTkyK8AB8GX1 aK+tgUWjzQLTO0zn/pBhu1bqPnBAJu3fDxlNlzuhZJBu9og= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyrjHijI3ddg0K4GosViJktB/AH/ExmMKiEmyVXgHEH0kouUJYEV6aJNl1xMNzyXrn5bX4FN4gRztnH6PWwYQA= X-Received: by 2002:a19:550f:: with SMTP id n15mr4098537lfe.34.1562918222573; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 00:57:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: H Y Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:55:31 +0900 Message-ID: To: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases@ietf.org Cc: "draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.org" , "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" , Valery Smyslov , "dots@ietf.org" , "neshi-nwsec-p-ml@hco.ntt.co.jp" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?we_can_consider_update_current_DOTS_use_cases_d?= =?utf-8?b?cmFmdCB0byByZWZsZWN0IHlvdXIgY2FzZTovL+etlOWkjTogSGksIGF1dGhv?= =?utf-8?q?rs=2C_3_questions_on_draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01?= =?utf-8?q?=3A?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 07:57:08 -0000 Hi use cases WG draft authors, I'm Yuhei, author of draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase which is an variant of DOTS Orchestration use case. The summary of the draft is as below. - DMS has DOTS client function and Orchestrator has DOTS server fucntion. - DMS sends blocked or detected traffic information to the orchestrator via DOTS protocol. IMO, it's effective that DMSs send blocked traffic information to an orchestrator via standardized IF, and the orchestrator carries out some action in the network such as the DMS offload use case. So I would like to minor-change and improve Section 3.3 in the current use case WG. Is there any problem? If it is no problem, I would like to make amendments asap. I'm glad if you give me a comment. Thanks, Yuhei 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 16:03 H Y : > > Hi Frank, > > Please see inline. > > 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 15:15 Xialiang (Frank, Netw= ork Standard & Patent Dept) > : > > > > Hi Yuhei, > > Thanks for quick and clear clarification. > > > > See inline: > > > > And in summary from my side, the only thing we may need to do according= to your proposal is to update the DOTS use cases draft to reflect your new= case: " It's effective that DMS have DOTS client function in DOTS orchestr= ation use case ". > > But we welcome more discussions. > [hayashi] > Thanks. I would like to contact use case authors asap. > And I would like to discuss more at IETF 105. > > > > > B.R. > > Frank > > > > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: H Y [mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com] > > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97= =A5 13:00 > > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent= Dept) > > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf= .org; Valery Smyslov ; dots@ietf.org; neshi-nwsec-p-ml@= hco.ntt.co.jp > > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayash= i-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01: > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > Thank you for reviewing my draft :-) > > Please see inline. > > > > > 1. I see your proposed offload use case as an variant of DOTS Orches= tration use case (section 3.3 of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18). > > [hayashi]Yes, that's right. > > > > > If so, what is your propose for this part of content? Do you want to = improve the existing DOTS use cases WG draft with your addition? > > [hayashi]Yes, I want to add our use case to improve the DOTS orchestrat= ion use cases. > > About the DOTS orchestration use case in current use cases WG draft, DM= S doesn't have DOTS client function. > > IMO, it's effective that DMSs send blocked information to an orchestrat= or via standardized IF and the orchestrator carries out some action in the = network. > > > > At IETF 104, I proposed to add our use case to improve the DOTS orchest= ration use cases, however, I could not do it because the use case WG draft = now is in Publication Requested status. > > Some people gave me the advice to include DOTS deployment consideration= to my draft, so I update my draft based on the comments. > > > > Please see IETF104 minute https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-104-= dots/ > > > > [Frank]: So, I suggest you to contact with DOTS use cases draft authors= about this proposal asap, since it's in the AD Evaluation status and I thi= nk your improvement is just a minor part. > [hayashi] > Thank you for giving me advice. > I would like to do so. > > > > > > 2. Right now, DOTS protocol defines sending DOTS request via sig= nal channel, do you propose to send it via data channel in some situation? = If so, I personally disagree with it, since we originally define signal cha= nnel and data channel for different functionalities & messages, we can not = send any DOTS messages over wrong channel, like: DOTS request via data chan= nel. > > [hayashi] After I submitted > > draft-h-dots-mitigation-offload-expansion-00, some people gave me comm= ents not to use signal channel but to use data channel via out-of band beca= use link b/w the DMS and Orchestrator won't be congested under attack time. > > > > Please see the mail thread [Dots] > > draft-h-dots-mitigation-offload-expansion-00: Reasons why we want to st= andardize between DMS and orchestrator using DOTS > > > > Current data channel has the capability to send filtering rules immedia= tely, so I think it can be used to send blocked information from DMS to Orc= hestrator. > > If the signal channel has the capability to convey the attacker's infor= mation, the signal channel can be also used to send it to form DMS to Orche= strator. > > > > [Frank]: sending acl filtering rules via DOTS data channel is ok. > [hayashi] > Thanks. > > > > > > 3. In addition to extended offload use case content, I do not se= e any new protocol, message or attribute extension comparing to the existin= g defined DOTS protocols, the left content are just some examples about how= you use the existing DOTS protocol for your offload use case. So, what do = you want DOTS WG to do for this draft, since there are no new thing here? > > [hayashi] This draft requires that ... > > - It's effective that DMS have DOTS client function in DOTS orchestrati= on use case. > > > > [Frank]: this is not excluded in current DOTS architecture, just lack o= f clear text of this point. You can discuss this point with use cases draft= authors. > [hayashi] > OK. > > > > > - It's effective that signal channel has the capability to send src inf= ormation. > > For example, it's useful and feasible to send src port information via = the DOTS signal channel to request mitigation against reflection attack. > > > > [Frank]: DOTS signal channel call home draft has already specified it. = No more needs to be done. > [hayashi] > OK. > > > > > > And be careful using signal channel call home for your use case, sinc= e it is a special mechanism for near source attack mitigation with DOTS ser= ver create TLS connection with DOTS client, which I don=E2=80=99t think it= =E2=80=99s very suitable for your case. > > Thank you for giving me comments. Could I define another signal channel= expansion to send src information via signal channel? > > > > [Frank]: I think it's not necessary. You can see my discussion with Med= about the same thing just now in: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/do= ts/hRd3BRTUjXx5roIS2jJ6UXzTny4 > [hayashi] > OK. > > Thanks, > Yuhei > > > > > Thanks, > > Yuhei > > > > 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 12:10 Xialiang (Frank, Ne= twork Standard & Patent Dept) > > : > > > > > > Hi authors, > > > > > > I have reviewed this new version and have 3 questions as below: > > > > > > 1. I see your proposed offload use case as an variant of DOTS Or= chestration use case (section 3.3 of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18). If so, = what is your propose for this part of content? Do you want to improve the e= xisting DOTS use cases WG draft with your addition? > > > > > > 2. Right now, DOTS protocol defines sending DOTS request via sig= nal channel, do you propose to send it via data channel in some situation? = If so, I personally disagree with it, since we originally define signal cha= nnel and data channel for different functionalities & messages, we can not = send any DOTS messages over wrong channel, like: DOTS request via data chan= nel. > > > > > > 3. In addition to extended offload use case content, I do not se= e any new protocol, message or attribute extension comparing to the existin= g defined DOTS protocols, the left content are just some examples about how= you use the existing DOTS protocol for your offload use case. So, what do = you want DOTS WG to do for this draft, since there are no new thing here? A= nd be careful using signal channel call home for your use case, since it is= a special mechanism for near source attack mitigation with DOTS server cre= ate TLS connection with DOTS client, which I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80= =99s very suitable for your case. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > B.R. > > > > > > Frank > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Dots mailing list > > > Dots@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > > > > > > > -- > > ---------------------------------- > > Yuuhei HAYASHI > > 08065300884 > > yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com > > iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp > > ---------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > > Dots mailing list > > Dots@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > > > -- > ---------------------------------- > Yuuhei HAYASHI > 08065300884 > yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com > iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp > ---------------------------------- --=20 ---------------------------------- Yuuhei HAYASHI 08065300884 yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp ---------------------------------- From nobody Fri Jul 12 03:04:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E20611202C7; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 03:04:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BGFPHbTobU_g; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 03:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0368D120176; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 03:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id EFEF24B1BC4F726AE730; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:04:04 +0100 (IST) Received: from lhreml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.54) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:04:04 +0100 Received: from lhreml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.54) by lhreml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.54) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1713.5; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:04:04 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.213) by lhreml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.54) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:04:04 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM511-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.140]) by DGGEMM405-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.213]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 18:04:00 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" To: H Y , "draft-ietf-dots-use-cases@ietf.org" CC: "draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.org" , Valery Smyslov , "dots@ietf.org" , "neshi-nwsec-p-ml@hco.ntt.co.jp" Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W0RvdHNdIHdlIGNhbiBjb25zaWRlciB1cGRhdGUgY3VycmVudCBET1RTIHVz?= =?utf-8?B?ZSBjYXNlcyBkcmFmdCB0byByZWZsZWN0IHlvdXIgY2FzZTovL+etlOWkjTog?= =?utf-8?B?SGksIGF1dGhvcnMsIDMgcXVlc3Rpb25zIG9uIGRyYWZ0LWhheWFzaGktZG90?= =?utf-8?Q?s-dms-offload-usecase-01:?= Thread-Index: AQHVOIAb+eZh0AywkECZ0srOSYEUIabGFz6AgACpcMA= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 10:03:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.159.76] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgd2UgY2FuIGNvbnNpZGVyIHVwZGF0ZSBj?= =?utf-8?q?urrent_DOTS_use_cases_draft_to_reflect_your_case=3A//=E7=AD=94?= =?utf-8?q?=E5=A4=8D=3A_Hi=2C_authors=2C_3_questions_on_draft-hayashi-dots?= =?utf-8?q?-dms-offload-usecase-01=3A?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 10:04:12 -0000 SGkgWXVoZWksDQpBcyBvbmUgb2YgdGhlIGF1dGhvciBvZiB0aGlzIGRyYWZ0LCBJIHVuZGVyc3Rh bmQgYW5kIGFncmVlIHdpdGggeW91ciBwcm9wb3NlZCBjaGFuZ2UuDQoNClRoYW5rcyENCg0KQi5S Lg0KRnJhbmsNCg0KLS0tLS3pgq7ku7bljp/ku7YtLS0tLQ0K5Y+R5Lu25Lq6OiBIIFkgW21haWx0 bzp5dXVoZWkuaGF5YXNoaUBnbWFpbC5jb21dIA0K5Y+R6YCB5pe26Ze0OiAyMDE55bm0N+aciDEy 5pelIDE1OjU2DQrmlLbku7bkuro6IGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtZG90cy11c2UtY2FzZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcN CuaKhOmAgTogZHJhZnQtaGF5YXNoaS1kb3RzLWRtcy1vZmZsb2FkLXVzZWNhc2UuYXV0aG9yc0Bp ZXRmLm9yZzsgWGlhbGlhbmcgKEZyYW5rLCBOZXR3b3JrIFN0YW5kYXJkICYgUGF0ZW50IERlcHQp IDxmcmFuay54aWFsaWFuZ0BodWF3ZWkuY29tPjsgVmFsZXJ5IFNteXNsb3YgPHZhbGVyeUBzbXlz bG92Lm5ldD47IGRvdHNAaWV0Zi5vcmc7IG5lc2hpLW53c2VjLXAtbWxAaGNvLm50dC5jby5qcA0K 5Li76aKYOiBSZTogW0RvdHNdIHdlIGNhbiBjb25zaWRlciB1cGRhdGUgY3VycmVudCBET1RTIHVz ZSBjYXNlcyBkcmFmdCB0byByZWZsZWN0IHlvdXIgY2FzZTovL+etlOWkjTogSGksIGF1dGhvcnMs 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DQo+ID4gPg0KPiA+ID4NCj4gPiA+DQo+ID4gPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiA+ID4gRG90cyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gPiA+IERvdHNA aWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gPiA+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZG90 cw0KPiA+DQo+ID4NCj4gPg0KPiA+IC0tDQo+ID4gLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLQ0KPiA+IFl1dWhlaSBIQVlBU0hJDQo+ID4gMDgwNjUzMDA4ODQNCj4gPiB5dXVoZWku aGF5YXNoaUBnbWFpbC5jb20NCj4gPiBpZWh1dXlfMDIyMEBkb2NvbW8ubmUuanANCj4gPiAtLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQo+ID4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gPiBEb3RzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiA+IERv dHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2Rv dHMNCj4NCj4NCj4NCj4gLS0NCj4gLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0K PiBZdXVoZWkgSEFZQVNISQ0KPiAwODA2NTMwMDg4NA0KPiB5dXVoZWkuaGF5YXNoaUBnbWFpbC5j b20NCj4gaWVodXV5XzAyMjBAZG9jb21vLm5lLmpwDQo+IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCg0KDQoNCi0tDQotLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t DQpZdXVoZWkgSEFZQVNISQ0KMDgwNjUzMDA4ODQNCnl1dWhlaS5oYXlhc2hpQGdtYWlsLmNvbQ0K aWVodXV5XzAyMjBAZG9jb21vLm5lLmpwDQotLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tDQo= From nobody Fri Jul 12 05:12:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0F2D12017D; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:12:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.106 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.106 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.247, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zFo-pfcBF1XE; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-f44.google.com (mail-ua1-f44.google.com [209.85.222.44]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 689DB120125; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-f44.google.com with SMTP id s4so3906550uad.7; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:12:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Zzwd1KRwOVhU+NKrDnnc9njrDQGIe9rmDa/KqO2zI2g=; b=dP8jLGrK0tj8eTjLw/k6vorfWW/HFv0GA5J3kKnFh+wFxsdQ598bhK6/bVmANOplgc UXFZYnFtC9lhpPE59FY+PLTuFvdVAb5NcJg0tWeZn4QYojvEj1kcGLTtjSih1gkQ2UVT lt7Yjn6GiS2+4KwgjxWzZVA5wobf7RdrDyWn4dZlas0yBhVtlPJ0T6VxbzH+N+csjGxt ympL9f5NMbI1ruQARD/aWexXtz3YncdVULqTt2DXFPdPJsfuyyzev0d3MGoO9MhhdJV0 rfnYKZqHHCQRC1093rsiVeMs5nGdsfbjk/UFbSUGXVY+djkpwrxcmOwpPCQbe4a0ydEO i9ZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXjGVOg66aUtTRAFQT9HS1sKP+FN6u0aKyrUor8n3gRYrKZqhUf guK5BNE7ksSz44E6pgYMzOpRX8ozIdoLS7DLDrU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxFVX5zriC6fTTYatvtZNtcwyg/ABn5NVIpC2XKxXB3lCvbDQROxiHsJKsgzE/E35CZ9PanmCSEYXfMjbQ8Rnw= X-Received: by 2002:a9f:2e0e:: with SMTP id t14mr8284366uaj.119.1562933536779; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:12:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190702223654.GF13810@kduck.mit.edu> <20190712004031.GH16418@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20190712004031.GH16418@kduck.mit.edu> From: Daniel Migault Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 08:12:05 -0400 Message-ID: To: Benjamin Kaduk Cc: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases.all@ietf.org, dots Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004474a3058d7ad2c5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:12:22 -0000 --0000000000004474a3058d7ad2c5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks for the follow up Ben. So I think your concern has been addressed by other changes in the document. Though I am not saying I do not introduced other nits of the same kind, I checked throughout the document and I believe any time web interface is mentioned it is currenlty clear it does not belong to the network admin. Maybe some english native co-authors could do a last proof-reading of the document to remove these sort of nits. the cuurent version is at: The current text is: """ The analysis from the orchestrator is reported to the network administrator via a web interface. If the network administrator decides to start the mitigation, the network administrator triggers the DDoS mitigation request using the web interface of a DOTS client communicating to the orchestrator DOTS server. This request is expected to be associated with a context that provides sufficient information to the orchestrator DOTS server to infer the DDoS Mitigation to elaborate and coordinate. """ Yours, Daniel On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 8:40 PM Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 04:13:38PM -0400, Daniel Migault wrote: > > > > c) it was unclear to me how to address the following comment. > > > > > > > The communication between a network administrator and the > > > orchestrator is also performed using DOTS. The network > administrator > > > via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the > > > Orchestrator implements a DOTS server. > > > > > > nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator has a > > > web interface. I think "its" is supposed to refer to something else. > > > > > > > > What we are trying to say is that the network administrator sees its web > > interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that interface. I have not > > made any change to address that concern, as I do not clearly see what is > > confusing. > > > > I don't think anyone is actually confused about the meaning; this was just > a pedantic comment about the grammar. "its web interface" has to belong > to something/someone, and with the current wording we are forced to parse > the sentence as "the network administrator's web interface", which is > surprising since a network administrator is a human and a web interface is > usually provided by a webserver. Perhaps we want to say "The network > administrator uses a web interface that implements a DOTS client"? > > -Ben > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > --0000000000004474a3058d7ad2c5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the follow up Ben. So I think your concern has = been addressed by other changes in the document.=C2=A0
Though I am not = saying I do not introduced other nits of the same kind, I checked throughou= t the document=C2=A0
and I believe any time web interface is ment= ioned it is currenlty clear it does not belong to the network admin.=C2=A0<= div>
Maybe some english native co-authors could do a last pro= of-reading of the document to remove these sort of nits.=C2=A0
th= e cuurent version is at:

=C2=A0
The curr= ent text is:

"""
The analysis f= rom the
orchestrator is reported to the network administrator via a web<= br>interface. If the network administrator decides to start the
mitigati= on, the network administrator triggers the DDoS mitigation
request using= the web interface of a DOTS client communicating to the
orchestrator DO= TS server. This request is expected to be associated with
a context that= provides sufficient information to the orchestrator DOTS
server to infe= r the DDoS Mitigation to elaborate and coordinate.
"&quo= t;"

Yours,=C2=A0
Daniel=


On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 8:40 PM Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 04:13:38= PM -0400, Daniel Migault wrote:
>
> c) it was unclear to me how to address the following comment.
>
>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The communication between a network administrator an= d the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 orchestrator is also performed using DOTS.=C2=A0 The= network administrator
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, whi= le the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Orchestrator implements a DOTS server.
> >
> > nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator ha= s a
> > web interface.=C2=A0 I think "its" is supposed to refer= to something else.
> >
> > <mglt>
> What we are trying to say is that the network administrator sees its w= eb
> interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that interface. I have no= t
> made any change to address that concern, as I do not clearly see what = is
> confusing.
> </mglt>

I don't think anyone is actually confused about the meaning; this was j= ust
a pedantic comment about the grammar.=C2=A0 "its web interface"= =C2=A0 has to belong
to something/someone, and with the current wording we are forced to parse the sentence as "the network administrator's web interface", = which is
surprising since a network administrator is a human and a web interface is<= br> usually provided by a webserver.=C2=A0 Perhaps we want to say "The net= work
administrator uses a web interface that implements a DOTS client"?

-Ben

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--0000000000004474a3058d7ad2c5-- From nobody Fri Jul 12 05:14:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C33C0120125; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:14:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.106 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.106 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.247, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M_TahX4Vlvlh; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-f47.google.com (mail-vs1-f47.google.com [209.85.217.47]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05D4A120116; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-f47.google.com with SMTP id j26so6518482vsn.10; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:14:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=eurTtt3S1iB86ae7a0tCtLYAxi4n9aMb/VhnoDshlvU=; b=ptMFiGWk2iZGwIeiR9MifLuR49Y/HpDLPRaY5bOc3eMbDnnmQAOT/9uNkq9pHvPcLy /SDEDviSXVnpkL0dBHnOxUUQiDE0vXgl9oMpYTFDcIBfDOpos4/CKSiKkFMY39/5mrOL t4aLqliJCSXJuy6pfim4RwyveIXjnMMm4v8RrulOYSPaZ/uo2++TrJpUiyPiHqNP7h8c Wy9HpeQok87+xCuEdYk99Pis/qrh9j20LAengapHWw8gx5dV4H2yFI95HeMEOFvbJVkG EiHzAIol9L86AQqxlDBqmIouH3cDDe8MgG4+Wzq4NmrdKNSMZ+v9z0Zd6X9yit3Moyoz jznw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVkSMxseA5Ll2yM4HTcBhsQTnMnlqgOSEsaFKVvSrPgR13H3Y2L +BFDCht3a77vK5eCVXNyJMnykgmS42pquiSrzS0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxhvLckD61SM4XM+HHTOTUeyz10Nmb728JaqcwaaoRcOyNnHG5/vG1pB6gUxX0QzXn8HoOAJzSi7u96WlgkPVE= X-Received: by 2002:a67:33c1:: with SMTP id z184mr8511464vsz.169.1562933641950; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:14:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190702223654.GF13810@kduck.mit.edu> <20190712004031.GH16418@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: From: Daniel Migault Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 08:13:50 -0400 Message-ID: To: Benjamin Kaduk Cc: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases.all@ietf.org, dots Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000893c0c058d7ad851" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:14:05 -0000 --000000000000893c0c058d7ad851 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" wit the link: https://github.com/dotswg/dots-use-cases Yours, Daniel On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 8:12 AM Daniel Migault wrote: > Thanks for the follow up Ben. So I think your concern has been addressed > by other changes in the document. > Though I am not saying I do not introduced other nits of the same kind, I > checked throughout the document > and I believe any time web interface is mentioned it is currenlty clear it > does not belong to the network admin. > > Maybe some english native co-authors could do a last proof-reading of the > document to remove these sort of nits. > the cuurent version is at: > > > The current text is: > > """ > The analysis from the > orchestrator is reported to the network administrator via a web > interface. If the network administrator decides to start the > mitigation, the network administrator triggers the DDoS mitigation > request using the web interface of a DOTS client communicating to the > orchestrator DOTS server. This request is expected to be associated with > a context that provides sufficient information to the orchestrator DOTS > server to infer the DDoS Mitigation to elaborate and coordinate. > """ > > Yours, > Daniel > > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 8:40 PM Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > >> On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 04:13:38PM -0400, Daniel Migault wrote: >> > >> > c) it was unclear to me how to address the following comment. >> > >> > >> > > The communication between a network administrator and the >> > > orchestrator is also performed using DOTS. The network >> administrator >> > > via its web interfaces implements a DOTS client, while the >> > > Orchestrator implements a DOTS server. >> > > >> > > nit: as written, this is saying that the network administrator has a >> > > web interface. I think "its" is supposed to refer to something else. >> > > >> > > >> > What we are trying to say is that the network administrator sees its web >> > interface, and instruct the DOTS client from that interface. I have not >> > made any change to address that concern, as I do not clearly see what is >> > confusing. >> > >> >> I don't think anyone is actually confused about the meaning; this was just >> a pedantic comment about the grammar. "its web interface" has to belong >> to something/someone, and with the current wording we are forced to parse >> the sentence as "the network administrator's web interface", which is >> surprising since a network administrator is a human and a web interface is >> usually provided by a webserver. Perhaps we want to say "The network >> administrator uses a web interface that implements a DOTS client"? >> >> -Ben >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Dots mailing list >> Dots@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots >> > --000000000000893c0c058d7ad851 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
wit the link:
Yours,=C2=A0
Daniel

On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 8:12 AM Dan= iel Migault <daniel.migau= lt@ericsson.com> wrote:
Thanks for the follow up Ben. So I think yo= ur concern has been addressed by other changes in the document.=C2=A0
T= hough I am not saying I do not introduced other nits of the same kind, I ch= ecked throughout the document=C2=A0
and I believe any time web in= terface is mentioned it is currenlty clear it does not belong to the networ= k admin.=C2=A0

Maybe some english native co-authors coul= d do a last proof-reading of the document to remove these sort of nits.=C2= =A0
the cuurent version is at:

=C2=A0
The current text is:

"""
The analysis from the
orchestrator is reported to the network administ= rator via a web
interface. If the network administrator decides to start= the
mitigation, the network administrator triggers the DDoS mitigation<= br>request using the web interface of a DOTS client communicating to theorchestrator DOTS server. This request is expected to be associated witha context that provides sufficient information to the orchestrator DOTSserver to infer the DDoS Mitigation to elaborate and coordinate.
"""

Yours,=C2=A0<= /div>
Daniel


<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 8:40 PM Benjam= in Kaduk <kaduk@mit.e= du> wrote:
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
--000000000000893c0c058d7ad851-- From nobody Fri Jul 12 19:55:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C93E1200B8; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:55:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_COMMENT_SAVED_URL=1.391, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_HTML_ATTACH=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1OKL_GWCg7oK; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12a.google.com (mail-lf1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1317120094; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id b17so7670507lff.7; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:55:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Zpq0CgncFQvcNZsxrHXSeCfHgHM5xWqzBzhEU1oyfV4=; b=oaHDZOQ21/TauE04SMWgi3fKX+Eis7gPuuOK3bZ/Eal/XE1bZ4htI3HgnPmvJg9XE9 RNTtvDMYjVP/d5X57LnWnxlKGe1Y8uaN5Mh+tEiMJly3y/lhZlRmD1yLaPzFP+Cxc6Oa TpnM6zeNnwe6+bMnKyNiLdjyqG+EQW93DQQuBD2lgZOCYGeV8B+FEb9SHXnMmEhRtLbR yRgZXSeuo3M7FwTIk/c68IP1B0nJzgmJwhcp/9LvqlwPY45L+ioH7kCaLwda1rHLX+1R 8Yzn0Hh0g9js4x8efpUPhF7urUuSR0ICPBTQFBaXEnLtC79msQSZiv+eCBu31HWpWWu9 LZnA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Zpq0CgncFQvcNZsxrHXSeCfHgHM5xWqzBzhEU1oyfV4=; b=cJF7nGDUal/FaYn21HFj/3xZS63C3T1+ihcwINSyEpbWeftX44oXW5wS9zv6dPbdNf GHvDPXogqT3y6w8Ha5zW2/gTx89/vhNHUuw/vHtqjlnHLYeytqw91/ngQw7EXkJ6bvax /djV+wI+XUieh6gUlY55YsxzpTCPym0qwuAvXexOyy7PDVjaePxbm30gJWj22vVyWMxd pF3/zaTHShN/m775wfzq8ajFaPnV/RlpmbsneYqduPRCaNwNCQWlI19/9DLBMF34/lXE OG8euieK1kUF2+AuKt7TUyFep9dZeCMJIjb7cKt2prR+1V6ZqVJH+s+GdtPj3pUmfsOi 7ksg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWYnT8j6KxENvQo33J5xDgbPIH4WaxwC7CeUHQiqpJkADIBAoX/ JbZ1WZBSlIOIRuJhWtfOAAU/VQxOk32RWDRcfhA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx+xiEryF6gQllfawhyEk1xoi7DsRrhyODaaiHOHHouTJ1fa3DDb6uIbpzZXJNr0nHRim/+9zYmcrbaD+C+Zd0= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:596c:: with SMTP id h12mr6341225lfp.101.1562986522419; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:55:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: H Y Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 11:55:11 +0900 Message-ID: To: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" Cc: "draft-ietf-dots-use-cases@ietf.org" , "draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.org" , Valery Smyslov , "dots@ietf.org" , "neshi-nwsec-p-ml@hco.ntt.co.jp" Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0000000000007549f4058d8728d9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?we_can_consider_update_current_DOTS_use_cases_d?= =?utf-8?b?cmFmdCB0byByZWZsZWN0IHlvdXIgY2FzZTovL+etlOWkjTogSGksIGF1dGhv?= =?utf-8?q?rs=2C_3_questions_on_draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01?= =?utf-8?q?=3A?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 02:55:41 -0000 --0000000000007549f4058d8728d9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Frank, use cases WG draft authors, > As one of the author of this draft, I understand and agree with your prop= osed change. Thank you for agreeing with that :-) > If it is no problem, I would like to make amendments asap. I made the minor amendments. Please see attachments. I'm glad if you give me a comment. Thanks, Yuhei 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 19:04 Xialiang (Frank, Networ= k Standard & Patent Dept) : > > Hi Yuhei, > As one of the author of this draft, I understand and agree with your prop= osed change. > > Thanks! > > B.R. > Frank > > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: H Y [mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com] > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5 = 15:56 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases@ietf.org > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.o= rg; Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept) ; Valery Smyslov ; dots@ietf.org; neshi-nwsec-p-ml= @hco.ntt.co.jp > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [Dots] we can consider update current DOTS use ca= ses draft to reflect your case://=E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Hi, authors, 3 questio= ns on draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01: > > Hi use cases WG draft authors, > > I'm Yuhei, author of draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase which is an v= ariant of DOTS Orchestration use case. > The summary of the draft is as below. > - DMS has DOTS client function and Orchestrator has DOTS server fucntion. > - DMS sends blocked or detected traffic information to the orchestrator v= ia DOTS protocol. > > IMO, it's effective that DMSs send blocked traffic information to an orch= estrator via standardized IF, and the orchestrator carries out some action = in the network such as the DMS offload use case. > > So I would like to minor-change and improve Section 3.3 in the current us= e case WG. > Is there any problem? > If it is no problem, I would like to make amendments asap. > > I'm glad if you give me a comment. > > Thanks, > Yuhei > > 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 16:03 H Y : > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > Please see inline. > > > > 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 15:15 Xialiang (Frank, Ne= twork Standard & Patent Dept) > > : > > > > > > Hi Yuhei, > > > Thanks for quick and clear clarification. > > > > > > See inline: > > > > > > And in summary from my side, the only thing we may need to do accordi= ng to your proposal is to update the DOTS use cases draft to reflect your n= ew case: " It's effective that DMS have DOTS client function in DOTS orches= tration use case ". > > > But we welcome more discussions. > > [hayashi] > > Thanks. I would like to contact use case authors asap. > > And I would like to discuss more at IETF 105. > > > > > > > > B.R. > > > Frank > > > > > > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > > > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: H Y [mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com] > > > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97= =A5 13:00 > > > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Pate= nt Dept) > > > > > > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ie= tf.org; Valery > > > Smyslov ; dots@ietf.org; > > > neshi-nwsec-p-ml@hco.ntt.co.jp > > > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-haya= shi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01: > > > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > > > Thank you for reviewing my draft :-) Please see inline. > > > > > > > 1. I see your proposed offload use case as an variant of DOTS Orch= estration use case (section 3.3 of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18). > > > [hayashi]Yes, that's right. > > > > > > > If so, what is your propose for this part of content? Do you want t= o improve the existing DOTS use cases WG draft with your addition? > > > [hayashi]Yes, I want to add our use case to improve the DOTS orchestr= ation use cases. > > > About the DOTS orchestration use case in current use cases WG draft, = DMS doesn't have DOTS client function. > > > IMO, it's effective that DMSs send blocked information to an orchestr= ator via standardized IF and the orchestrator carries out some action in th= e network. > > > > > > At IETF 104, I proposed to add our use case to improve the DOTS orche= stration use cases, however, I could not do it because the use case WG draf= t now is in Publication Requested status. > > > Some people gave me the advice to include DOTS deployment considerati= on to my draft, so I update my draft based on the comments. > > > > > > Please see IETF104 minute > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-104-dots/ > > > > > > [Frank]: So, I suggest you to contact with DOTS use cases draft autho= rs about this proposal asap, since it's in the AD Evaluation status and I t= hink your improvement is just a minor part. > > [hayashi] > > Thank you for giving me advice. > > I would like to do so. > > > > > > > > > 2. Right now, DOTS protocol defines sending DOTS request via s= ignal channel, do you propose to send it via data channel in some situation= ? If so, I personally disagree with it, since we originally define signal c= hannel and data channel for different functionalities & messages, we can no= t send any DOTS messages over wrong channel, like: DOTS request via data ch= annel. > > > [hayashi] After I submitted > > > draft-h-dots-mitigation-offload-expansion-00, some people gave me co= mments not to use signal channel but to use data channel via out-of band be= cause link b/w the DMS and Orchestrator won't be congested under attack tim= e. > > > > > > Please see the mail thread [Dots] > > > draft-h-dots-mitigation-offload-expansion-00: Reasons why we want to > > > standardize between DMS and orchestrator using DOTS > > > > > > Current data channel has the capability to send filtering rules immed= iately, so I think it can be used to send blocked information from DMS to O= rchestrator. > > > If the signal channel has the capability to convey the attacker's inf= ormation, the signal channel can be also used to send it to form DMS to Orc= hestrator. > > > > > > [Frank]: sending acl filtering rules via DOTS data channel is ok. > > [hayashi] > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > 3. In addition to extended offload use case content, I do not = see any new protocol, message or attribute extension comparing to the exist= ing defined DOTS protocols, the left content are just some examples about h= ow you use the existing DOTS protocol for your offload use case. So, what d= o you want DOTS WG to do for this draft, since there are no new thing here? > > > [hayashi] This draft requires that ... > > > - It's effective that DMS have DOTS client function in DOTS orchestra= tion use case. > > > > > > [Frank]: this is not excluded in current DOTS architecture, just lack= of clear text of this point. You can discuss this point with use cases dra= ft authors. > > [hayashi] > > OK. > > > > > > > > - It's effective that signal channel has the capability to send src i= nformation. > > > For example, it's useful and feasible to send src port information vi= a the DOTS signal channel to request mitigation against reflection attack. > > > > > > [Frank]: DOTS signal channel call home draft has already specified it= . No more needs to be done. > > [hayashi] > > OK. > > > > > > > > > And be careful using signal channel call home for your use case, si= nce it is a special mechanism for near source attack mitigation with DOTS s= erver create TLS connection with DOTS client, which I don=E2=80=99t think i= t=E2=80=99s very suitable for your case. > > > Thank you for giving me comments. Could I define another signal chann= el expansion to send src information via signal channel? > > > > > > [Frank]: I think it's not necessary. You can see my discussion with > > > Med about the same thing just now in: > > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/hRd3BRTUjXx5roIS2jJ6UXzTn > > > y4 > > [hayashi] > > OK. > > > > Thanks, > > Yuhei > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Yuhei > > > > > > 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 12:10 Xialiang (Frank, = Network Standard & Patent Dept) > > > : > > > > > > > > Hi authors, > > > > > > > > I have reviewed this new version and have 3 questions as below: > > > > > > > > 1. I see your proposed offload use case as an variant of DOTS = Orchestration use case (section 3.3 of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18). If so= , what is your propose for this part of content? Do you want to improve the= existing DOTS use cases WG draft with your addition? > > > > > > > > 2. Right now, DOTS protocol defines sending DOTS request via s= ignal channel, do you propose to send it via data channel in some situation= ? If so, I personally disagree with it, since we originally define signal c= hannel and data channel for different functionalities & messages, we can no= t send any DOTS messages over wrong channel, like: DOTS request via data ch= annel. > > > > > > > > 3. In addition to extended offload use case content, I do not = see any new protocol, message or attribute extension comparing to the exist= ing defined DOTS protocols, the left content are just some examples about h= ow you use the existing DOTS protocol for your offload use case. So, what d= o you want DOTS WG to do for this draft, since there are no new thing here?= And be careful using signal channel call home for your use case, since it = is a special mechanism for near source attack mitigation with DOTS server c= reate TLS connection with DOTS client, which I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80= =99s very suitable for your case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > B.R. > > > > > > > > Frank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Dots mailing list > > > > Dots@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > ---------------------------------- > > > Yuuhei HAYASHI > > > 08065300884 > > > yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com > > > iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp > > > ---------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Dots mailing list > > > Dots@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > > > > > > > -- > > ---------------------------------- > > Yuuhei HAYASHI > > 08065300884 > > yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com > > iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp > > ---------------------------------- > > > > -- > ---------------------------------- > Yuuhei HAYASHI > 08065300884 > yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com > iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp > ---------------------------------- --=20 ---------------------------------- Yuuhei HAYASHI 08065300884 yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp ---------------------------------- --0000000000007549f4058d8728d9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"; name="Diff_ draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18.txt - draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-19.txt.html" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Diff_ draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18.txt - draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-19.txt.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: X-Attachment-Id: f_jy0xl7xs0 PCFET0NUWVBFIGh0bWwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBYSFRNTCAxLjAgVHJhbnNpdGlvbmFs 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Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nQ0ynUa-oeDA for ; Sun, 14 Jul 2019 18:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91ECD12001B for ; Sun, 14 Jul 2019 18:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id B9E33B42E8FCD0704D62 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 02:45:30 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEMM403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.211) by lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.44) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 02:45:30 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM511-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.140]) by DGGEMM403-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.211]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 09:45:23 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" To: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Fwd: New datatracker feature: Allow presenters to upload slides Thread-Index: AdU6ruTqWWNdHTTBQuGg1hMTMgYnZg== Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 01:45:22 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.159.76] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7CA4A1dggemm511mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] Fwd: New datatracker feature: Allow presenters to upload slides X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 01:45:35 -0000 --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7CA4A1dggemm511mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IETF 105 Presenters! Please note that, per below, *you* are now able to upload your own slides t= o Datatracker. Please try to do this, the links to use are: For DOTS: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/session/dots B.R. Frank Begin forwarded message: From: Robert Sparks > Subject: New datatracker feature: Allow presenters to upload slides Date: July 12, 2019 at 11:51:56 AM EDT To: IETF WG Chairs > Shortly after IETF 104, we added the ability for presenters to upload slide= s and suggesting to the chairs that they be added to a session. On the meeting materials page for a group (for example ) anyone logged in who is not a chair/se= cretary for the group gets a [Propose Slides] button. When they upload slides using that, the chairs will get email, and the sugg= estions will appear in a new block on that page. Chairs can then accept or reject each suggestion. RjS --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7CA4A1dggemm511mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

IETF 105 Presenters!=

 

Please note that, per below, *y= ou* are now able to upload your own slides to Datatracker.  Please try= to do this, the links to use are:

 

    For DOTS: https://dat= atracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/session/dots

 

B.R.

Frank

 

 



Begin forwarded message:

 

From: Robert Sparks <rjspa= rks@nostrum.com>

Subject: New datatracker feature: Allow presente= rs to upload slides

Date: July 12, 2019 at 11:51:56 AM EDT

To: IETF WG Chairs <wgchair= s@ietf.org>

 

= Shortly after IETF 104, we added the ability for presenters to upload slide= s and suggesting to the chairs that they be added to a session.

On the meeting materials page for a group (for example <https://datatracker.ietf.= org/meeting/105/session/stir>) anyone logged in who is not a chair/s= ecretary for the group gets a [Propose Slides] button.

When they upload slides using that, the chairs will get email, and the sugg= estions will appear in a new block on that page.

Chairs can then accept or reject each suggestion.

RjS

 

 

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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-?= =?utf-8?q?dots-data-channel-28=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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AQyItyLWR0piI0w/XU2D884rhzBeaqmq7kTtKc8AiW8KGQIGQx8VEldLqmoorB7Xj7EcGeg9YHJS9jFAptpRrTen7trYrWRJBQCaQZV5irEtdFQhmZT6rgDEnlGHRV6OeRIgJIwVUjM2XzD7697eNL8Z08/rKLSoVwMXSrEEiUAcB90/gzuaBCR7+lSlZgkKP2E6phCCgB5LR/ChzeSGZIQkTCSFqSy/umZlcd0ToBWlkSpM1rYbDoNBstyrri53/Rk3GQmmZbyT7uMnQYGbghMxRe2sS4NBAdBQwiLDA2FNeOzHp5VTozC8w3ulWqDjOAv5ffn/4BD3EJwB6gSBMSW2GO1TrdWd7MprZmx9yd2zUo6MAxjhFUIgoTg+SOXCUVkAGVu0xR1rQhgf6Z1eSZjIMib2An9buql87NmEfHs= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 13179298-7f64-4f77-6951-08d70921ad38 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Jul 2019 12:40:53.9019 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4943e38c-6dd4-428c-886d-24932bc2d5de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR16MB0028 X-OriginatorOrg: mcafee.com X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: 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b3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZG90cw0KDQo= From nobody Tue Jul 16 01:05:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52997120059 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:05:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xAPtzquUGVpu for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF5D9120020 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr01.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.65]) by opfednr20.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45ntHX2kkYz22GW; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:05:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.48]) by opfednr01.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45ntHX23w6zDq7h; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:05:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM32.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::81c9:5f:b9c5:1241%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:05:28 +0200 From: To: kaname nishizuka CC: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] (draft-ietf-dots-signal-filter-control) ACL Stats issue Thread-Index: AQHU/2BvJUcq+7jYY0mriQALnDahkabNWozQ Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 08:05:27 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAE4D52@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA649B4@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA66FEC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroo t.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA67156@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <03f901d4fe6f$98f00a00$cad01e00$@jpshallow.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA6725D@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA6736E@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] (draft-ietf-dots-signal-filter-control) ACL Stats issue X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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+0200 From: To: Meiling Chen , dots Thread-Topic: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHVNjEuv/kFneM6c02DOQcN9YEpdqbM8Fsw Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 08:26:14 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAE5D7E@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <156246539991.3273.3216673143517865297.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2019070916342639919923@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: <2019070916342639919923@chinamobile.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAE5D7EOPEXCAUBMA2corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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(wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 473EC120721; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 08:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 200116b82c8690005de75fee217f5885.dip.versatel-1u1.de ([2001:16b8:2c86:9000:5de7:5fee:217f:5885]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hnPBb-0000Ry-3g; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 17:16:11 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB345F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 17:16:09 +0200 Cc: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , Roman Danyliw , "dots@ietf.org" , Benjamin Kaduk , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-dots-data-channel@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5C02462E-0067-4A56-940D-15D434676CC6@kuehlewind.net> References: <155679628494.24951.9145538661531263463.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA68C8B@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20190701154032.GB13810@kduck.mit.edu> <24FFE7CE-B91A-4CF4-BB85-D6108ACE0043@kuehlewind.net> <642531B0-3E3A-4A5C-BD20-C74AA3698936@kuehlewind.net> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB345F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1563290179;1848ce6f; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hnPBb-0000Ry-3g Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-?= =?utf-8?q?dots-data-channel-28=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 15:16:23 -0000 Hi Med, Sorry for my late reply. One minor comment below: > On 3. Jul 2019, at 19:51, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >=20 > Re-, >=20 > Please see inline. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] >> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 3 juillet 2019 18:41 >> =C3=80 : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >> Cc : Roman Danyliw; dots@ietf.org; The IESG; dots-chairs@ietf.org; = draft- >> ietf-dots-data-channel@ietf.org; BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; Benjamin = Kaduk >> Objet : Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-dots-data- >> channel-28: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>=20 >> Hi Tiru, hi Med, >>=20 >> Please see below. >>=20 >>> On 3. Jul 2019, at 10:00, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >> wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Mirja, >>>=20 >>> Please see inline >>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Mirja Kuehlewind >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2019 9:20 PM >>>> To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >>>> Cc: Benjamin Kaduk ; Roman Danyliw ; >>>> dots@ietf.org; The IESG ; dots-chairs@ietf.org; >>>> mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; draft-ietf-dots-data-channel@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-dots-data- >>>> channel-28: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>>>=20 >>>> This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not = click >> links or >>>> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the = content >> is >>>> safe. >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Tiru, >>>>=20 >>>> Below... >>>>=20 >>>>> On 2. Jul 2019, at 16:22, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >>>> wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Mirja Kuehlewind >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2019 7:36 PM >>>>>> To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >>>> >>>>>> Cc: Benjamin Kaduk ; Roman Danyliw ; >>>>>> dots@ietf.org; The IESG ; dots-chairs@ietf.org; >>>>>> mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; = draft-ietf-dots-data-channel@ietf.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on >>>>>> draft-ietf-dots-data- >>>>>> channel-28: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Hi Tiru, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Please see below. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On 2. Jul 2019, at 09:55, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> I would also quickly like to discuss the use of keep-alives = as >>>>>>>>>>> described in Section 3.1: "While the communication to the = DOTS >>>>>>>>>>> server is quiescent, the DOTS client MAY probe the server = to >>>>>>>>>>> ensure it has maintained cryptographic state. Such probes = can >>>>>>>>>>> also keep alive firewall and/or NAT bindings. A TLS = heartbeat >>>>>>>>>>> [RFC6520] verifies that the DOTS server still has TLS state = by >>>>>>>>>>> returning >>>>>> a TLS message." >>>>>>>>>>> I understood that multiple requests can and should be send = in >>>>>>>>>>> the same connection, however, I would expect that those = requests >>>>>>>>>>> are send basically right after each other, such as a look-up = and >>>>>>>>>>> then change of the config. I don't see a need to keep up the >>>>>>>>>>> connection for a >>>>>>>> long time otherwise. >>>>>>>>>>> Especially any action performed are (other than in the = signal >>>>>>>>>>> channel case) not time critical. Therefore I would rather >>>>>>>>>>> recommend to close and reopen connections and not recommend >>>> to >>>>>> use >>>>>>>>>>> keep-alives at all. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> [Med] The activity of the DOTS client may be used to = track/detect >>>>>>>>>> stale >>>>>>>> entries: >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Also, DOTS servers >>>>>>>>>> may track the inactivity timeout of DOTS clients to detect = stale >>>>>>>>>> entries. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> My understanding is that this is orthogonal. You can also see = that >>>>>>>> a client is inactive when it didn=E2=80=99t open a new = connection for a >> certain >>>> time=E2=80=A6? >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> The drop-list rules could be frequently updated by the DOTS = client >>>>>>> based on the tests used by the DOTS client domain (e.g. >>>>>>> cryptographic >>>>>>> challenge) to detect whether the IP address is for legitimate = use or >>>>>>> not, or based on threat intelligence feeds from security vendors >>>>>>> providing the botnet/malicious IP addresses feed. Further, >>>>>>> persistent DOTS data channel is required to handle updates to = target >>>>>>> resources (e.g. CDN hosting a domain, and it needs DDoS = protection) >>>>>>> and target IP/prefix may also change frequently (mobile branch >>>>>>> office, prefix re-numbering etc.) >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> This still doesn=E2=80=99t sounds like it is desirable to keep = the TCP >> connection >>>> open. >>>>>> Also if you can bear the time to reconnect (1-2 RTT for the >>>>>> handshake) that is usually the better and easier options. I = don=E2=80=99t >>>>>> think the information we talk about here are that time-critical, = is >>>>>> it? When you say frequent what time frame do you mean, Hours, >> minutes, >>>> seconds, milliseconds? >>>>>=20 >>>>> The frequency of updates to drop-list rules can be few = milliseconds. >> For >>>> example, CAPTCHA and cryptographic puzzles can be used by DOTS = client >>>> domain to determine whether the IP address is used for legitimate >> purpose >>>> or not, and can configure the drop-list rules. >>>>> Further, the specification does not mandate the connection to be >>>> persistent, but when needed, the probe mechanism applies. >>>>=20 >>>> Then it really seems to me that the document would need to provide >> further >>>> guidance when a persistent connection is useful or when it is = recommend >> to >>>> close the connection (and reopen if needed). >>>=20 >>> Sure, will add the following text: >>>=20 >>> A DOTS client can either maintain a persistent connection or = periodic >>> connections with its DOTS server(s). If the DOTS client needs to >>> frequently update the drop-list or accept-list filtering rules or >>> aliases, it maintains a persistent connection with the DOTS server. >>> For example, CAPTCHA and cryptographic puzzles can be used by the >>> mitigation service in the DOTS client domain to determine whether = the >>> IP address is used for legitimate purpose or not, and the DOTS = client >>> can frequently update the drop-list filtering rules. A persistent >>> connection is also useful if the DOTS client subscribes to event >>> notifications (Section 6.3 of [RFC8040]). >>>=20 >>> - Tiru and Med >>=20 >> Thanks! >>=20 >> Two more small comments: >>=20 >> At least to me the term =E2=80=9Cperiodic" is not clear. I guess mean = something >> like short-lived connections, where you have a request, you open a >> connection, send it, get a reply, and close the connection = immediately or >> after a short idle period. Or is there actually any kind of = periodicity in >> the dots protocol in general? Can you pleas clarify. >=20 > [Med] We are trying to reuse the same terminology as RESTCONF = (draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-server).=20 >=20 > For the DOTS case, the DOTS client is required to register and send = requests to refresh the registration in regular intervals (otherwise, = the DOTS client won't be able to created filters). Likewise, cycles will = be observed because the client will need to maintains the aliases and = ACLs it created. The client may use these cycles for any planned = activity (create new aliases, create a new filter, etc.) or not.=20 >=20 >>=20 >> Also if a persistent connection is used, I think it would (again) be = good >> to clarify what should be done if the connection fails. I think the = right >> advise in this case, is to not reconnect immediately but only if you = have >> another request to send, right? >> =09 >=20 > [Med] draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-server voices for the = following: >=20 > Maintain a persistent connection to the > RESTCONF server. If the connection goes down, > immediately start trying to reconnect to the > RESTCONF server, using the reconnection strategy. >=20 > Which is the right approach, IMO. >=20 > We didn't touched on connection management because we are relying on = RESTCONF. DOTS will use whatever strategy adopted for RESTCONF. >=20 > I don't think it is a good idea to add specific behavior into our = spec.=20 That is fine. I wasn=E2=80=99t aware that this is specified like this in = RESTCONF and that your are replying on it. Instead of (re-)specifying in = this in document, I would recommend to actually add a reference to this = part of the RESTCONF document and make clear that this is what you are = replying on. Thanks! Mirja >=20 >=20 >=20 >> Mirja >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Mirja >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> -Tiru >>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Mirja >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Further, we are not mandating the connection to be persistent, = but >>>>>>> when >>>>>> needed, the probe mechanism applies. Please note >>>>>> = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server- >>>>>> 13 discusses persistent-connection and it=E2=80=99s a client = preference on >>>>>> how the connection is maintained (persistent or periodic). >>>>>=20 >>>=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Jul 16 08:36:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E72F1207C8; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 08:36:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7SD79-lZFKv8; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 08:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65355120796; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 08:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 200116b82c8690005de75fee217f5885.dip.versatel-1u1.de ([2001:16b8:2c86:9000:5de7:5fee:217f:5885]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hnPV3-0004xF-Ak; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 17:36:17 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <072901d531d3$bdd39c00$397ad400$@jpshallow.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 17:36:15 +0200 Cc: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org, "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , dots@ietf.org, frank.xialiang@huawei.com, The IESG , dots-chairs@ietf.org, Benjamin Kaduk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <88340CB5-1902-4F14-A030-C93BA21A5D80@kuehlewind.net> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2ABA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2CC5@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2F77@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <06e901d531a8$38f38d90$aadaa8b0$@jpshallow.com> <2B716406-0554-4DC6-B6F9-057A9D4D85C4@kuehlewind.net> <072901d531d3$bdd39c00$397ad400$@jpshallow.com> To: Jon Shallow X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1563291382;0291a15d; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hnPV3-0004xF-Ak Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Behavior_when_keep-alives_fail_=28RE=3A___Mirja?= =?utf-8?q?_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-3?= =?utf-8?q?1=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 15:36:34 -0000 Hi Jon, hi all, Thanks for your replies. And sorry for my late reply. Again my higher layer point is that the function you want is different = than what Coap Ping was designed for (and I thing you agreed to that) = and therefore it is a much cleaner design to specify an own way to = realise this function with in your protocol layer. Please see further below. > On 3. Jul 2019, at 21:15, Jon Shallow = wrote: >=20 > Hi Mirja, >=20 > In one sense Med has answered your queries below separately, but I = will try to expand on them from my implementation perspective. >=20 > Regards >=20 > Jon >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dots [mailto: dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mirja >> Kuehlewind >> Sent: 03 July 2019 18:12 >> To: Jon Shallow >> Cc: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; Konda, Tirumaleswar = Reddy; >> dots@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; The IESG; = dots-chairs@ietf.org; >> mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; Benjamin Kaduk >> Subject: Re: [Dots] Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: Mirja = K=C3=BChlewind's >> Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and = COMMENT) >>=20 >> Hi Jon, >>=20 >> Thanks for extended explanation. Please see questions inline.c >>=20 >>> On 3. Jul 2019, at 16:04, Jon Shallow = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Mirja, >>>=20 >>> As an implementer of DOTS I have the following comments to make to = try >> and help understand what is going on with the Heartbeats >>>=20 >>> In the peace time scenario, it is assumed that the heartbeats = function >> through the network in both directions and that it is possible to = disable one >> or both of the heartbeat directions. >>>=20 >>> Heartbeats can use UDP or TCP depending on the session set up based = on >> the initial connection (UDP is preferred over TCP). With UDP, there = is a CoAP >> Ping (Empty request CON 0.00) and a CoAP RST response. With TCP, = there is >> a Coap Ping (7.02) and a Coap Pong (7.03) response. >>> For UDP, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252#section-4.8.2 defines = the >> ACK_TIMEOUT, ACK_RANDOM_FACTOR, and MAX_RETRANSMIT which map >> onto the DOTS heartbeat parameters ack-timeout, ack-random-factor and >> max-retransmit. These 3 parameters determine the elapsed time when >> there has been transmission failure. There is an additional DOTS = parameter >> missing-hb-allowed to support more than one heartbeat loss should it = be >> needed before determining that a DOTS agent has really gone away = (instead >> of, say, going through a reboot or a restart cycle). >>=20 >> Why do you need this additional parameter? Why is max-retransmit not >> enough? Isn=E2=80=99t the results the same, you send more ping frames = before you >> finally give up? >=20 > Well no - we are running in a failing network environment due to the = DDoS attacks and need to be as robust as possible before finally giving = up. >=20 > In RFC7252 ACK_TIMEOUT, ACK_RANDOM_FACTOR, and MAX_RETRANSMIT have the = suggested values of 2, 1.5 and 4 respectively. Yes but you use/recommend different values. > Following https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252#section-4.8.2, the time = between the first and last retransmit with these values is 45 seconds - = which means that the request times out after 93 seconds = (MAX_TRANSMIT_WAIT) at the point when the MAX_RETRANSMIT+1 is retried. >=20 > This final time of 48 seconds (93sec - 45sec) is bigger than a NAT = refresh timeout that we are comfortable with, so the recommended DOTS = value for max-retransmit is 3. If the waiting time between the retransmission is seen as to small, you = can adjust ACK_TIMEOUT or ACK_RANDOM_FACTOR. > We have added in this additional missing-hb-allowed to increase the = timeout before failure is determined. However, again, instead of trying to hack the ping mechanism in coap you = should really rather design your own application layer mechanism, given = you have a different goal and scenario that the coap ping was designed = for. >=20 > However, as mentioned below, this determined failure may not be = sufficient to cause a session to be closed down as there could be = network losses due to the DDoS attacks. Understood. >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> When handling an attack scenario, there is a good chance that the = inbound >> (DOTS server to DOTS client) data path is flooded /overloaded and = hence >> packet loss (but not the case with all DDoS type scenarios). >>>=20 >>> A significant purpose of the DOTS client generating a heartbeat is = to make >> sure that any NAT devices in the path maintain their NAT associations = and >> allow any returning responses (which could be unsolicited if the = observe of a >> mitigation is active). >>>=20 >>> Even in the attack scenario, the DOTS server will see these = heartbeat >> messages, but can only deduce that the connection from the DOTS = client to >> the DOTS server is good - but cannot make any assumptions about = traffic >> flowing in the other direction. >>=20 >> However, if the client does never receive a Coap RST or Coap pong, it = will >> sooner or later give up and not send any ping messages anymore. In = this case >> the server will receive no ping anymore and can decide to send own = pings. >> Important is the idle time out is known to both ends. >=20 > Agreed, but as mentioned below the DOTS client must continue to = transmit if there has been a mitigation request (i.e. running in under = attack mode and networks could be flaky). The DOTS client will also stop after missing-hb-allowed has been = reached? So it will stop at some point just later. >=20 >=20 > The retransmission parameters are negotiated between the DOTS agents = at client session startup ( = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-34#section-4.5.= .2 ) so both ends know what the timeouts are. >=20 >>=20 >> Further if your really want to be sure if the RST was received or = not, I=E2=80=99d >> recommend you to use an own application ping that indicated if the = ping is a >> retransmission or not. >=20 > Well actually, while the CoAP layer handles the transmission of the = Empty/RST, the ping is initiated by the DOTS layer (and is told either a = RST or timeout occurred), It initiated by the application but it still uses the Coap layer = mechanism. I strongly recommend to not do that. > not the CoAP layer and so the DOTS application is in control of what = is going on here. DOTS initiates the ping but then Coap takes control and handles = retransmission. >=20 > The Ping is not handled in the same as, say, TCP keep-alive packets = which are handled completely by the TCP layer. It=E2=80=99s not the same but the application still has only partial = control. >=20 >>=20 >> Detection one-way congestion is a different function than keep-alive = testing >> and it is better to use an explicit mechanism for that then trying to = infer >> something from a mechanism that was designed for a different purpose. >>=20 >=20 > Agreed, but the DOTS layer is triggering the CoAP ping to do this work = for the one-way congestion testing. >=20 >>>=20 >>> However, the DOTS client may not get a ping response due to the = flooded >> inbound pipe. If the DOTS client has initiated a mitigation request, = then it is >> unsafe for the DOTS client to close down the session - it will need = to refresh >> the mitigation requests / create new ones even if the mitigation is = not being >> that effective as traffic can still flow to the server. It is = possible that the >> DOTS server has just restarted - hence the requirement to try and = open up a >> new session in parallel. >>>=20 >>> If the DOTS server also initiates heartbeat messages, sees the DOTS = client >> pings, but does not see any response to the DOTS server ping, the = DOTS >> server can now deduce that the outbound pipe is good, but the inbound >> pipe to the DOTS client is failing. The DOTS server then does not = need to >> close down the session as it will be expecting additional mitigation = requests >> from the DOTS client - even though the DOTS server Coap Ping is = failing. >>>=20 >>> Furthermore, if the DOTS server initiates its CoAP ping on receipt = of the >> DOTS client Coap Ping, then there is a good chance that the NAT = sessions are >> "warm" on any intervening NAT devices. If the DOTS server initiates = the >> Coap Ping on its own cycle, there is a chance that it may not get = through and >> confuse the logic. >>=20 >> This also sounds to me that you should rather design your own testing >> during mitigation in the dots layer, e.g. don=E2=80=99t use the Coap = Ping, but send a >> non-confirmable Coap message which contains a dots layer =E2=80=9Cping"= and an >> indication if a dots-layer =E2=80=9Cpong" has been received or not. >=20 > As stated above, the CoAP ping is not initiated by the CoAP layer like = TCP keep-alives, but is triggered by the DOTS application by sending the = Coap Ping packet - which in effect is what you are suggesting (apart = from the non-confirmable aspect). Not it=E2=80=99s not. What I suggest is to take fill control. Design an = own dots ping or let=E2=80=99s say probing message (that also indicates = if the previous message was confirmed or not) and send this as = non-confirmable message over Coap. While a dots receiver would the send = a (non-confirmable) dots-layer pong. > If using TCP, then what you describe is correct (except = Confirmable/Non-Confirmable are out of the picture). >=20 > The CoAP Empty packet must be confirmable to solicit a RST response = (Table 1: RFC7252). I would rather not move away from RFC7252 here. >=20 >>=20 >> However, note that this still might not work with TCP as messages = cannot be >> transmitted unreliably and not-transmitted/no-acked application layer = data >> will block all other traffic on the same connection at some point = because TCP >> will try to retransmit and shrink the congestion window to the = minimum. >=20 > TCP CoAP Ping/Pong does work as we are initiating it from the DOTS = layer. I don=E2=80=99t understand how this works. If a message is not = transmitted over TCP the connection will close at some point and you = have to reconnect. If you can=E2=80=99t do a TCP handshake, you will = never get a new connection. Mirja >=20 > ~Jon >=20 >>=20 >> Mirja >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Regards >>>=20 >>> Jon >>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of supjps- >> mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>> Sent: 03 July 2019 14:46 >>>> To: Mirja Kuehlewind >>>> Cc: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; Konda, Tirumaleswar = Reddy; >>>> dots@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; The IESG; dots- >> chairs@ietf.org; >>>> Benjamin Kaduk >>>> Subject: Re: [Dots] Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: Mirja = K=C3=BChlewind's >>>> Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and >> COMMENT) >>>>=20 >>>> Re-, >>>>=20 >>>> Please see inline. >>>>=20 >>>> Cheers, >>>> Med >>>>=20 >>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] >>>>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 3 juillet 2019 14:46 >>>>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN >>>>> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; = draft-ietf-dots-signal- >>>>> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The = IESG; >>>>> dots-chairs@ietf.org >>>>> Objet : Re: Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: [Dots] Mirja = K=C3=BChlewind's >>>>> Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and >>>> COMMENT) >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hi Med, >>>>>=20 >>>>> See below. >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 3. Jul 2019, at 12:48, >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Mirja, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Actually to my understanding this will not work. Both TCP = heartbeat >> and >>>>>>> Coap Ping are transmitted reliably. If you don=E2=80=99t receive = an ack for >>>>> these >>>>>>> transmissions you are not able to send any additional messages = and >> can >>>>>>> only choose the connection. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> This behavior is implemented and tested between two >> implementations. >>>> The >>>>> exact procedure is described in the draft, fwiw: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =3D=3D >>>>>> When a Confirmable "CoAP Ping" is sent, and if there is no = response, >>>>>> the "CoAP Ping" is retransmitted max-retransmit number of times = by >>>>>> the CoAP layer using an initial timeout set to a random duration >>>>>> between ack-timeout and (ack-timeout*ack-random-factor) and >>>>>> exponential back-off between retransmissions. By choosing the >>>>>> recommended transmission parameters, the "CoAP Ping" will timeout >>>>>> after 45 seconds. If the DOTS agent does not receive any = response >>>>>> from the peer DOTS agent for 'missing-hb-allowed' number of >>>>>> consecutive "CoAP Ping" Confirmable messages, it concludes that = the >>>>>> DOTS signal channel session is disconnected. A DOTS client MUST = NOT >>>>>> transmit a "CoAP Ping" while waiting for the previous "CoAP Ping" >>>>>> response from the same DOTS server. >>>>>> =3D=3D >>>>>=20 >>>>> First, can you explain why you need 'missing-hb-allowed=E2=80=99? >>>>=20 >>>> [Med] because we need to make sure this a "real/durable" session >> defunct, >>>> not a false positive. For example, this would have implications on = the >> server >>>> as it may erroneously start automated mitigations (because it = concludes >> the >>>> session is lost). >>>>=20 >>>> If the ping is >>>>> transmitted reliably, one =E2=80=9Cmissed=E2=80=9D should be = enough to conclude that >> the >>>>> session is disconnected. >>>>=20 >>>> [Med] Hmm, under some DDoS attacks, both endpoints may be >>>> sending/replying to confirmable ping messages, but the reply may = get >>>> dropped. The session is not disconnected in such case. >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Yes, as Coap Ping is used, the agent should not only conclude that = the >>>>> DOTS signal session is disconnected but also the Coap session and = not >> send >>>>> any further Coap messages anymore. >>>>>=20 >>>>> If you want to send further UDP datagram you should it = unreliability and >>>>> not more often then one per 3 seconds. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Mirja >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Med >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] >>>>>>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 3 juillet 2019 12:26 >>>>>>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN >>>>>>> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; draft-ietf-dots- >> signal- >>>>>>> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The >> IESG; >>>>>>> dots-chairs@ietf.org >>>>>>> Objet : Re: Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: [Dots] Mirja >>>>> K=C3=BChlewind's >>>>>>> Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and >>>>> COMMENT) >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Hi Med, >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> See below. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> On 3. Jul 2019, at 09:53, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Hi Mirja, >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> (Focusing on individual issues) >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Please see inline. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>>> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] >>>>>>>>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 2 juillet 2019 16:00 >>>>>>>>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN >>>>>>>>> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; = draft-ietf-dots- >>>>> signal- >>>>>>>>> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; = The >>>> IESG; >>>>>>>>> dots-chairs@ietf.org >>>>>>>>> Objet : Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-dots- >>>>> signal- >>>>>>>>> channel-31: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10) The document should more explicitly provide more >>>> guidance >>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>>>> when a client should start a session and what should be = done >>>>> (from >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> client side) if a session is detected as inactive (other = than >>>>>>> during >>>>>>>>>>>>>> migration which is discussed a bit in 4.7). Is the = assumption to >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically permanently an active session or connect for >>>> migration >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> configuration requests separately at a time? >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there was some clarifying text added, but please >> confirm >>>>> if >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>> think it >>>>>>>>>>>>> is sufficient. >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, don=E2=80=99t see where text was added. Can you = provide a >> pointer? >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> [Med] We do have this text, for example: >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> The DOTS signal channel can be established between two DOTS >>>> agents >>>>>>>>>> prior or during an attack. The DOTS signal channel is = initiated by >>>>>>>>>> the DOTS client. The DOTS client can then negotiate, = configure, >> and >>>>>>>>>> retrieve the DOTS signal channel session behavior with its = DOTS >> peer >>>>>>>>>> (Section 4.5). Once the signal channel is established, the = DOTS >>>>>>>>>> agents periodically send heartbeats to keep the channel = active >>>>>>>>>> (Section 4.7). At any time, the DOTS client may send a = mitigation >>>>>>>>>> request message (Section 4.4) to a DOTS server over the = active >>>>> signal >>>>>>>>>> channel. While mitigation is active (because of the higher >>>>>>>>>> likelihood of packet loss during a DDoS attack), the DOTS = server >>>>>>>>>> periodically sends status messages to the client, including = basic >>>>>>>>>> mitigation feedback details. Mitigation remains active until = the >>>>>>>>>> DOTS client explicitly terminates mitigation, or the = mitigation >>>>>>>>>> lifetime expires. Also, the DOTS server may rely on the = signal >>>>>>>>>> channel session loss to trigger mitigation for pre-configured >>>>>>>>>> mitigation requests (if any). >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Okay thanks for for the pointer. What I think is missing are = some >>>>>>>>> sentences about what the client (or server) should do if the = keep- >>>>> alive >>>>>>>>> fails. Try to reconnect directly or just with the next request = or >>>>>>>>> whatever. Basically who should reconnect and when? >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> [Med] This is discussed in details in Section 4.7, in = particular. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> As a generic rule, it is always the client who connects (see = the >>>>> excerpt >>>>>>> above). >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> The server may use the failure to initiate automated mitigation = (see >>>>> the >>>>>>> excerpt above). More details are provided in other sections. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> There are several heartbeat failure cases to handle by the = client. >>>>>>> Examples from 4.7 are provided below, fwiw: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> The DOTS client MUST NOT consider the DOTS signal channel >> session >>>>>>>> terminated even after a maximum 'missing-hb-allowed' = threshold is >>>>>>>> reached. The DOTS client SHOULD keep on using the current = DOTS >>>>>>>> signal channel session to send heartbeat requests over it, so = that >>>>>>>> the DOTS server knows the DOTS client has not disconnected = the >>>>>>>> DOTS signal channel session. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> After the maximum 'missing-hb-allowed' threshold is reached, = the >>>>>>>> DOTS client SHOULD try to resume the (D)TLS session. The = DOTS >>>>>>>> client SHOULD send mitigation requests over the current DOTS >>>>>>>> signal channel session, and in parallel, for example, try to >>>>>>>> resume the (D)TLS session or use 0-RTT mode in DTLS 1.3 to >>>>>>>> piggyback the mitigation request in the ClientHello message. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> As soon as the link is no longer saturated, if traffic from = the >>>>>>>> DOTS server reaches the DOTS client over the current DOTS = signal >>>>>>>> channel session, the DOTS client can stop (D)TLS session >>>>>>>> resumption or if (D)TLS session resumption is successful then >>>>>>>> disconnect the current DOTS signal channel session. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Do you think additional text is needed? >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Actually to my understanding this will not work. Both TCP = heartbeat >> and >>>>>>> Coap Ping are transmitted reliably. If you don=E2=80=99t receive = an ack for >>>>> these >>>>>>> transmissions you are not able to send any additional messages = and >> can >>>>>>> only choose the connection. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Mirja >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Dots mailing list >>>> Dots@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Dots mailing list >> Dots@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots >=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Jul 16 08:41:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8D441206BA; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 08:41:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5Tj_flDfPSQb; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 08:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 922B512066F; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 08:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 200116b82c8690005de75fee217f5885.dip.versatel-1u1.de ([2001:16b8:2c86:9000:5de7:5fee:217f:5885]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hnPZl-0002em-HR; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 17:41:09 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 17:41:08 +0200 Cc: Jon Shallow , "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" , "dots@ietf.org" , "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , Benjamin Kaduk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <75AF98A2-C7AE-48DD-B054-F25CCA2C8367@kuehlewind.net> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2ABA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2CC5@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2F77@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <06e901d531a8$38f38d90$aadaa8b0$@jpshallow.com> <2B716406-0554-4DC6-B6F9-057A9D4D85C4@kuehlewind.net> <072901d531d3$bdd39c00$397ad400$@jpshallow.com> To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1563291674;36b7a655; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hnPZl-0002em-HR Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Behavior_when_keep-alives_fail_=28RE=3A___Mirja?= =?utf-8?q?_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-3?= =?utf-8?q?1=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 15:41:18 -0000 Hi Tiru, Thanks for the updates. I think there is one remaining issue on the use = of ping/heart-beats (see also my other message). However, I believe all = other discuss points have been addressed now. Thanks for that! Mirja > On 15. Jul 2019, at 14:40, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy = wrote: >=20 > Hi Mirja, >=20 > We have updated the draft to address your Discuss and comments = (https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-35.t= xt). Please have a look and approve the draft.=20 >=20 > Best Regards, > -Tiru >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jon Shallow >> Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2019 12:46 AM >> To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; 'Mirja Kuehlewind' >> ; draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; = Konda, >> Tirumaleswar Reddy ; >> dots@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; 'The IESG' ; = dots- >> chairs@ietf.org; 'Benjamin Kaduk' >> Subject: RE: [Dots] Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: Mirja = K=C3=BChlewind's >> Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and = COMMENT) >>=20 >> This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click = links or >> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content = is >> safe. >>=20 >> Hi Mirja, >>=20 >> In one sense Med has answered your queries below separately, but I = will try >> to expand on them from my implementation perspective. >>=20 >> Regards >>=20 >> Jon >>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Dots [mailto: dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mirja >>> Kuehlewind >>> Sent: 03 July 2019 18:12 >>> To: Jon Shallow >>> Cc: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; Konda, Tirumaleswar >>> Reddy; dots@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; The IESG; >>> dots-chairs@ietf.org; mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; Benjamin Kaduk >>> Subject: Re: [Dots] Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: Mirja >>> K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with >>> DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>>=20 >>> Hi Jon, >>>=20 >>> Thanks for extended explanation. Please see questions inline.c >>>=20 >>>> On 3. Jul 2019, at 16:04, Jon Shallow = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Mirja, >>>>=20 >>>> As an implementer of DOTS I have the following comments to make to >>>> try >>> and help understand what is going on with the Heartbeats >>>>=20 >>>> In the peace time scenario, it is assumed that the heartbeats >>>> function >>> through the network in both directions and that it is possible to >>> disable one or both of the heartbeat directions. >>>>=20 >>>> Heartbeats can use UDP or TCP depending on the session set up based >>>> on >>> the initial connection (UDP is preferred over TCP). With UDP, there >>> is a CoAP Ping (Empty request CON 0.00) and a CoAP RST response. = With >>> TCP, there is a Coap Ping (7.02) and a Coap Pong (7.03) response. >>>> For UDP, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252#section-4.8.2 defines >>>> the >>> ACK_TIMEOUT, ACK_RANDOM_FACTOR, and MAX_RETRANSMIT which >> map onto the >>> DOTS heartbeat parameters ack-timeout, ack-random-factor and >>> max-retransmit. These 3 parameters determine the elapsed time when >>> there has been transmission failure. There is an additional DOTS >> parameter >>> missing-hb-allowed to support more than one heartbeat loss should it >>> be needed before determining that a DOTS agent has really gone away >>> (instead of, say, going through a reboot or a restart cycle). >>>=20 >>> Why do you need this additional parameter? Why is max-retransmit not >>> enough? Isn=E2=80=99t the results the same, you send more ping = frames before >>> you finally give up? >>=20 >> Well no - we are running in a failing network environment due to the = DDoS >> attacks and need to be as robust as possible before finally giving = up. >>=20 >> In RFC7252 ACK_TIMEOUT, ACK_RANDOM_FACTOR, and MAX_RETRANSMIT >> have the suggested values of 2, 1.5 and 4 respectively. Following >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252#section-4.8.2, the time between = the first >> and last retransmit with these values is 45 seconds - which means = that the >> request times out after 93 seconds (MAX_TRANSMIT_WAIT) at the point >> when the MAX_RETRANSMIT+1 is retried. >>=20 >> This final time of 48 seconds (93sec - 45sec) is bigger than a NAT = refresh >> timeout that we are comfortable with, so the recommended DOTS value = for >> max-retransmit is 3. We have added in this additional = missing-hb-allowed to >> increase the timeout before failure is determined. >>=20 >> However, as mentioned below, this determined failure may not be = sufficient >> to cause a session to be closed down as there could be network losses = due to >> the DDoS attacks. >>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> When handling an attack scenario, there is a good chance that the >>>> inbound >>> (DOTS server to DOTS client) data path is flooded /overloaded and >>> hence packet loss (but not the case with all DDoS type scenarios). >>>>=20 >>>> A significant purpose of the DOTS client generating a heartbeat is >>>> to make >>> sure that any NAT devices in the path maintain their NAT = associations >>> and allow any returning responses (which could be unsolicited if the >>> observe of a mitigation is active). >>>>=20 >>>> Even in the attack scenario, the DOTS server will see these >>>> heartbeat >>> messages, but can only deduce that the connection from the DOTS = client >>> to the DOTS server is good - but cannot make any assumptions about >>> traffic flowing in the other direction. >>>=20 >>> However, if the client does never receive a Coap RST or Coap pong, = it >>> will sooner or later give up and not send any ping messages anymore. >>> In this case the server will receive no ping anymore and can decide = to send >> own pings. >>> Important is the idle time out is known to both ends. >>=20 >> Agreed, but as mentioned below the DOTS client must continue to = transmit if >> there has been a mitigation request (i.e. running in under attack = mode and >> networks could be flaky). >>=20 >> The retransmission parameters are negotiated between the DOTS agents = at >> client session startup ( = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal- >> channel-34#section-4.5.2 ) so both ends know what the timeouts are. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Further if your really want to be sure if the RST was received or = not, >>> I=E2=80=99d recommend you to use an own application ping that = indicated if the >>> ping is a retransmission or not. >>=20 >> Well actually, while the CoAP layer handles the transmission of the >> Empty/RST, the ping is initiated by the DOTS layer (and is told = either a RST or >> timeout occurred), not the CoAP layer and so the DOTS application is = in >> control of what is going on here. >>=20 >> The Ping is not handled in the same as, say, TCP keep-alive packets = which are >> handled completely by the TCP layer. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Detection one-way congestion is a different function than keep-alive >>> testing and it is better to use an explicit mechanism for that then >>> trying to infer something from a mechanism that was designed for a >> different purpose. >>>=20 >>=20 >> Agreed, but the DOTS layer is triggering the CoAP ping to do this = work for the >> one-way congestion testing. >>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> However, the DOTS client may not get a ping response due to the >>>> flooded >>> inbound pipe. If the DOTS client has initiated a mitigation = request, >>> then it is unsafe for the DOTS client to close down the session - it >>> will need to refresh the mitigation requests / create new ones even = if >>> the mitigation is not being that effective as traffic can still flow >>> to the server. It is possible that the DOTS server has just = restarted >>> - hence the requirement to try and open up a new session in = parallel. >>>>=20 >>>> If the DOTS server also initiates heartbeat messages, sees the DOTS >>>> client >>> pings, but does not see any response to the DOTS server ping, the = DOTS >>> server can now deduce that the outbound pipe is good, but the = inbound >>> pipe to the DOTS client is failing. The DOTS server then does not >>> need to close down the session as it will be expecting additional >>> mitigation requests from the DOTS client - even though the DOTS = server >> Coap Ping is failing. >>>>=20 >>>> Furthermore, if the DOTS server initiates its CoAP ping on receipt >>>> of the >>> DOTS client Coap Ping, then there is a good chance that the NAT >>> sessions are "warm" on any intervening NAT devices. If the DOTS >>> server initiates the Coap Ping on its own cycle, there is a chance >>> that it may not get through and confuse the logic. >>>=20 >>> This also sounds to me that you should rather design your own = testing >>> during mitigation in the dots layer, e.g. don=E2=80=99t use the Coap = Ping, but >>> send a non-confirmable Coap message which contains a dots layer = =E2=80=9Cping" >>> and an indication if a dots-layer =E2=80=9Cpong" has been received = or not. >>=20 >> As stated above, the CoAP ping is not initiated by the CoAP layer = like TCP >> keep-alives, but is triggered by the DOTS application by sending the = Coap >> Ping packet - which in effect is what you are suggesting (apart from = the non- >> confirmable aspect). If using TCP, then what you describe is correct = (except >> Confirmable/Non-Confirmable are out of the picture). >>=20 >> The CoAP Empty packet must be confirmable to solicit a RST response = (Table >> 1: RFC7252). I would rather not move away from RFC7252 here. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> However, note that this still might not work with TCP as messages >>> cannot be transmitted unreliably and not-transmitted/no-acked >>> application layer data will block all other traffic on the same >>> connection at some point because TCP will try to retransmit and = shrink the >> congestion window to the minimum. >>=20 >> TCP CoAP Ping/Pong does work as we are initiating it from the DOTS = layer. >>=20 >> ~Jon >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Mirja >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Regards >>>>=20 >>>> Jon >>>>=20 >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of supjps- >>> mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>> Sent: 03 July 2019 14:46 >>>>> To: Mirja Kuehlewind >>>>> Cc: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; Konda, Tirumaleswar >>>>> Reddy; dots@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; The IESG; dots- >>> chairs@ietf.org; >>>>> Benjamin Kaduk >>>>> Subject: Re: [Dots] Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: Mirja >>>>> K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: = (with >>>>> DISCUSS and >>> COMMENT) >>>>>=20 >>>>> Re-, >>>>>=20 >>>>> Please see inline. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Med >>>>>=20 >>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] Envoy=C3=A9 : >>>>>> mercredi 3 juillet 2019 14:46 =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN = Cc : >>>>>> Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; = draft-ietf-dots-signal- >>>>>> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The >>>>>> IESG; dots-chairs@ietf.org Objet : Re: Behavior when keep-alives >>>>>> fail (RE: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on >>>>>> draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and >>>>> COMMENT) >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Hi Med, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> See below. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On 3. Jul 2019, at 12:48, >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Mirja, >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Actually to my understanding this will not work. Both TCP >>>>>>>> heartbeat >>> and >>>>>>>> Coap Ping are transmitted reliably. If you don=E2=80=99t = receive an ack >>>>>>>> for >>>>>> these >>>>>>>> transmissions you are not able to send any additional messages >>>>>>>> and >>> can >>>>>>>> only choose the connection. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> This behavior is implemented and tested between two >>> implementations. >>>>> The >>>>>> exact procedure is described in the draft, fwiw: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> =3D=3D >>>>>>> When a Confirmable "CoAP Ping" is sent, and if there is no >>>>>>> response, the "CoAP Ping" is retransmitted max-retransmit = number >>>>>>> of times by the CoAP layer using an initial timeout set to a >>>>>>> random duration between ack-timeout and >>>>>>> (ack-timeout*ack-random-factor) and exponential back-off = between >>>>>>> retransmissions. By choosing the recommended transmission >>>>>>> parameters, the "CoAP Ping" will timeout after 45 seconds. If >>>>>>> the DOTS agent does not receive any response from the peer DOTS >>>>>>> agent for 'missing-hb-allowed' number of consecutive "CoAP = Ping" >>>>>>> Confirmable messages, it concludes that the DOTS signal channel >>>>>>> session is disconnected. A DOTS client MUST NOT transmit a = "CoAP >> Ping" while waiting for the previous "CoAP Ping" >>>>>>> response from the same DOTS server. >>>>>>> =3D=3D >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> First, can you explain why you need 'missing-hb-allowed=E2=80=99? >>>>>=20 >>>>> [Med] because we need to make sure this a "real/durable" session >>> defunct, >>>>> not a false positive. For example, this would have implications on >>>>> the >>> server >>>>> as it may erroneously start automated mitigations (because it >>>>> concludes >>> the >>>>> session is lost). >>>>>=20 >>>>> If the ping is >>>>>> transmitted reliably, one =E2=80=9Cmissed=E2=80=9D should be = enough to conclude >>>>>> that >>> the >>>>>> session is disconnected. >>>>>=20 >>>>> [Med] Hmm, under some DDoS attacks, both endpoints may be >>>>> sending/replying to confirmable ping messages, but the reply may >>>>> get dropped. The session is not disconnected in such case. >>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Yes, as Coap Ping is used, the agent should not only conclude = that >>>>>> the DOTS signal session is disconnected but also the Coap session >>>>>> and not >>> send >>>>>> any further Coap messages anymore. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> If you want to send further UDP datagram you should it >>>>>> unreliability and not more often then one per 3 seconds. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Mirja >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] Envoy=C3=A9 = : >>>>>>>> mercredi 3 juillet 2019 12:26 =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed = TGI/OLN Cc : >>>>>>>> Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; draft-ietf-dots- >>> signal- >>>>>>>> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; The >>> IESG; >>>>>>>> dots-chairs@ietf.org >>>>>>>> Objet : Re: Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: [Dots] Mirja >>>>>> K=C3=BChlewind's >>>>>>>> Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and >>>>>> COMMENT) >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Hi Med, >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> See below. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> On 3. Jul 2019, at 09:53, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Hi Mirja, >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> (Focusing on individual issues) >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Please see inline. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>>>> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] Envoy=C3=A9 = : >>>>>>>>>> mardi 2 juillet 2019 16:00 =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN = Cc : >>>>>>>>>> Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Benjamin Kaduk; draft-ietf-dots- >>>>>> signal- >>>>>>>>>> channel@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; dots@ietf.org; >>>>>>>>>> The >>>>> IESG; >>>>>>>>>> dots-chairs@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>> Objet : Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on >>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-dots- >>>>>> signal- >>>>>>>>>> channel-31: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10) The document should more explicitly provide more >>>>> guidance >>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when a client should start a session and what should be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> done >>>>>> (from >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> client side) if a session is detected as inactive (other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>> during >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> migration which is discussed a bit in 4.7). Is the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assumption to >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically permanently an active session or connect for >>>>> migration >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> configuration requests separately at a time? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there was some clarifying text added, but please >>> confirm >>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>> think it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is sufficient. >>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, don=E2=80=99t see where text was added. Can you = provide a >>> pointer? >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> [Med] We do have this text, for example: >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> The DOTS signal channel can be established between two DOTS >>>>> agents >>>>>>>>>>> prior or during an attack. The DOTS signal channel is >>>>>>>>>>> initiated by the DOTS client. The DOTS client can then >>>>>>>>>>> negotiate, configure, >>> and >>>>>>>>>>> retrieve the DOTS signal channel session behavior with its >>>>>>>>>>> DOTS >>> peer >>>>>>>>>>> (Section 4.5). Once the signal channel is established, the >>>>>>>>>>> DOTS agents periodically send heartbeats to keep the channel >>>>>>>>>>> active (Section 4.7). At any time, the DOTS client may send >>>>>>>>>>> a mitigation request message (Section 4.4) to a DOTS server >>>>>>>>>>> over the active >>>>>> signal >>>>>>>>>>> channel. While mitigation is active (because of the higher >>>>>>>>>>> likelihood of packet loss during a DDoS attack), the DOTS >>>>>>>>>>> server periodically sends status messages to the client, >>>>>>>>>>> including basic mitigation feedback details. Mitigation >>>>>>>>>>> remains active until the DOTS client explicitly terminates >>>>>>>>>>> mitigation, or the mitigation lifetime expires. Also, the >>>>>>>>>>> DOTS server may rely on the signal channel session loss to >>>>>>>>>>> trigger mitigation for pre-configured mitigation requests = (if any). >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Okay thanks for for the pointer. What I think is missing are >>>>>>>>>> some sentences about what the client (or server) should do if >>>>>>>>>> the keep- >>>>>> alive >>>>>>>>>> fails. Try to reconnect directly or just with the next = request >>>>>>>>>> or whatever. Basically who should reconnect and when? >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> [Med] This is discussed in details in Section 4.7, in = particular. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> As a generic rule, it is always the client who connects (see >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>> excerpt >>>>>>>> above). >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> The server may use the failure to initiate automated = mitigation >>>>>>>>> (see >>>>>> the >>>>>>>> excerpt above). More details are provided in other sections. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> There are several heartbeat failure cases to handle by the = client. >>>>>>>> Examples from 4.7 are provided below, fwiw: >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> The DOTS client MUST NOT consider the DOTS signal channel >>> session >>>>>>>>> terminated even after a maximum 'missing-hb-allowed' >> threshold is >>>>>>>>> reached. The DOTS client SHOULD keep on using the current >> DOTS >>>>>>>>> signal channel session to send heartbeat requests over it, = so that >>>>>>>>> the DOTS server knows the DOTS client has not disconnected = the >>>>>>>>> DOTS signal channel session. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> After the maximum 'missing-hb-allowed' threshold is reached, >> the >>>>>>>>> DOTS client SHOULD try to resume the (D)TLS session. The = DOTS >>>>>>>>> client SHOULD send mitigation requests over the current DOTS >>>>>>>>> signal channel session, and in parallel, for example, try to >>>>>>>>> resume the (D)TLS session or use 0-RTT mode in DTLS 1.3 to >>>>>>>>> piggyback the mitigation request in the ClientHello message. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> As soon as the link is no longer saturated, if traffic from = the >>>>>>>>> DOTS server reaches the DOTS client over the current DOTS = signal >>>>>>>>> channel session, the DOTS client can stop (D)TLS session >>>>>>>>> resumption or if (D)TLS session resumption is successful = then >>>>>>>>> disconnect the current DOTS signal channel session. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Do you think additional text is needed? >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Actually to my understanding this will not work. Both TCP >>>>>>>> heartbeat >>> and >>>>>>>> Coap Ping are transmitted reliably. If you don=E2=80=99t = receive an ack >>>>>>>> for >>>>>> these >>>>>>>> transmissions you are not able to send any additional messages >>>>>>>> and >>> can >>>>>>>> only choose the connection. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Mirja >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Dots mailing list >>>>> Dots@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Dots mailing list >>> Dots@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots >=20 From nobody Wed Jul 17 01:10:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 472541201D1; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 01:10:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RmswuBrlShkR; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 01:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A26612009C; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 01:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr07.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.71]) by opfednr25.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45pVLS3GzkzCrPp; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:10:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.23]) by opfednr07.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45pVLS0RjRzFpWM; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:10:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM41.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:10:08 +0200 From: To: Mirja Kuehlewind CC: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "Roman Danyliw" , "dots@ietf.org" , Benjamin Kaduk , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-dots-data-channel@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W0RvdHNdICBNaXJqYSBLw7xobGV3aW5kJ3MgRGlzY3VzcyBvbiBkcmFmdC1p?= =?utf-8?B?ZXRmLWRvdHMtZGF0YS1jaGFubmVsLTI4OiAod2l0aCBESVNDVVNTIGFuZCBD?= =?utf-8?Q?OMMENT)?= Thread-Index: AQHVO+lrEOXXRpBeYEyBEBxuCEvpM6bOZzig Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 08:10:07 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EC96FC2@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <155679628494.24951.9145538661531263463.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA68C8B@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20190701154032.GB13810@kduck.mit.edu> <24FFE7CE-B91A-4CF4-BB85-D6108ACE0043@kuehlewind.net> <642531B0-3E3A-4A5C-BD20-C74AA3698936@kuehlewind.net> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB345F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5C02462E-0067-4A56-940D-15D434676CC6@kuehlewind.net> In-Reply-To: <5C02462E-0067-4A56-940D-15D434676CC6@kuehlewind.net> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-?= =?utf-8?q?dots-data-channel-28=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 08:10:12 -0000 SGkgTWlyamEsIA0KDQpQbGVhc2Ugc2VlIGlubGluZS4NCg0KQ2hlZXJzLA0KTWVkDQoNCj4gLS0t LS1NZXNzYWdlIGQnb3JpZ2luZS0tLS0tDQo+IERlwqA6IE1pcmphIEt1ZWhsZXdpbmQgW21haWx0 bzppZXRmQGt1ZWhsZXdpbmQubmV0XQ0KPiBFbnZvecOpwqA6IG1hcmRpIDE2IGp1aWxsZXQgMjAx OSAxNzoxNg0KPiDDgMKgOiBCT1VDQURBSVIgTW9oYW1lZCBUR0kvT0xODQo+IENjwqA6IEtvbmRh LCBUaXJ1bWFsZXN3YXIgUmVkZHk7IFJvbWFuIERhbnlsaXc7IGRvdHNAaWV0Zi5vcmc7IEJlbmph bWluDQo+IEthZHVrOyBUaGUgSUVTRzsgZG90cy1jaGFpcnNAaWV0Zi5vcmc7IGRyYWZ0LWlldGYt ZG90cy1kYXRhLQ0KPiBjaGFubmVsQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IE9iamV0wqA6IFJlOiBbRG90c10gTWly amEgS8O8aGxld2luZCdzIERpc2N1c3Mgb24gZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1kb3RzLWRhdGEtDQo+IGNoYW5u ZWwtMjg6ICh3aXRoIERJU0NVU1MgYW5kIENPTU1FTlQpDQo+IA0KW3NuaXBdDQo+ID4+Pg0KPiA+ Pj4gU3VyZSwgd2lsbCBhZGQgdGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZyB0ZXh0Og0KPiA+Pj4NCj4gPj4+ICBBIERP VFMgY2xpZW50IGNhbiBlaXRoZXIgbWFpbnRhaW4gYSBwZXJzaXN0ZW50IGNvbm5lY3Rpb24gb3Ig 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ZWZlcmVuY2Ugd2l0aCB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIHRleHQ6DQoNCiAgIEFkZGl0aW9uYWwgY29uc2lk ZXJhdGlvbnMNCiAgIHJlbGF0ZWQgdG8gUkVTVENPTkYgY29ubmVjdGlvbiBtYW5hZ2VtZW50IChp bmNsdWRpbmcsIGNvbmZpZ3VyaW5nIHRoZQ0KICAgY29ubmVjdGlvbiB0eXBlIG9yIHRoZSByZWNv bm5lY3Qgc3RyYXRlZ3kpIGNhbiBiZSBmb3VuZCBpbg0KICAgW0ktRC5pZXRmLW5ldGNvbmYtcmVz dGNvbmYtY2xpZW50LXNlcnZlcl0uDQoNCkJldHRlcj8NCg0KPiANCj4gVGhhbmtzIQ0KPiBNaXJq YQ0K From nobody Wed Jul 17 01:30:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D00120221 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 01:30:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uUOdmvDtsHCJ for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 01:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta3.chinamobile.com (cmccmta3.chinamobile.com [221.176.66.81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5190E12021B for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 01:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.121.11]) by rmmx-syy-dmz-app09-12009 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee95d2edca3961-84c47; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:30:28 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee95d2edca3961-84c47 X-RM-TagInfo: emlType=0 X-RM-SPAM-FLAG: 00000000 Received: from cmcc-PC (unknown[10.2.51.70]) by rmsmtp-syy-appsvr06-12006 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee65d2edca3b7b-9d778; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:30:28 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee65d2edca3b7b-9d778 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:30:30 +0800 From: "Meiling Chen" To: mohamed.boucadair , dots References: <156246539991.3273.3216673143517865297.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>, <2019070916342639919923@chinamobile.com>, <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAE5D7E@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> X-Priority: 3 X-Has-Attach: no X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.2.9.115[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <201907171630300752479@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart630165737448_=----" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 08:30:46 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart630165737448_=---- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgbWVkLA0KVGhhbmsgeW91IGZvciB5b3VyIHN1Z2dlc3Rpb24uDQpuZXh0IHZlcnNpb24gd2ls bCBtb3JlIGRldGFpbHMgYWJvdXQgdGhlIGludGVyZmFjZXMgYW5kIGRlcGxveW1lbnQgY29uc2lk ZXJhdGlvbnMNCmJ1dCBJIGRvbid0IGdldCB5b3VyIHBvaW50IGFib3V0IGludGVyYWN0aW9uIHdp dGggZmxvdyBjb2xsZWN0b3JzPyB3aGF0J3MgeW91ciBtZWFuIG9mIGZsb3cgY29sbGVjdG9ycz8g aXMgaXQgY2xlYW4gZXF1aXBtZW50KG1pdGlnYXRvcik/DQoNCkJlc3QgUmVnYXJkcywNCk1laWxp bmcgQ2hlbiANCkZyb206IG1vaGFtZWQuYm91Y2FkYWlyQG9yYW5nZS5jb20NCkRhdGU6IDIwMTkt MDctMTYgMTY6MjYNClRvOiBNZWlsaW5nIENoZW47IGRvdHMNClN1YmplY3Q6IFJFOiBbRG90c10g TmV3IFZlcnNpb24gTm90aWZpY2F0aW9uIGZvciBkcmFmdC1jaGVuLWRvdHMtc2VydmVyLWhpZXJh cmNoaWNhbC1kZXBsb3ltZW50LTAwLnR4dA0KSGkgTWVpbGluZywgDQogDQpUaGFuayBmb3IgaW5p dGlhdGluZyB0aGlzIHdvcmsuDQogDQpJdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBpbnRlcmVzdGluZyB0byBhZGQgbW9y ZSBkZXRhaWxzIGFib3V0IHRoZSB2YXJpb3VzIGludGVyZmFjZXMgaW52b2x2ZWQgaW4gdGhlIGRl cGxveW1lbnQgc2NoZW1lcyAoZS5nLiByZWN1cnNpdmUgc2lnbmFsaW5nKS4gVGhpcyB3b3VsZCBo ZWxwIGFzc2Vzc2luZyB3aGV0aGVyIGN1cnJlbnQgRE9UUyBzaWduYWxzIGFyZSBzdWZmaWNpZW50 IG9yIG5vdC4gDQogDQpBbHNvLCBpdCB3b3VsZCBoZWxwZnVsIGlmIHlvdSBjYW4gZWxhYm9yYXRl IGZ1cnRoZXIgb24gZGVwbG95bWVudCBjb25zaWRlcmF0aW9ucyAoYW5kIGhvdykgdG8gbWVldCBz b21lIG9mIHRoZSByZXF1aXJlbWVudHMgeW91IGlkZW50aWZpZWQsIGZvciBleGFtcGxlOg0KIA0K obAgICBvICBET1RTIHNlcnZlciBoYXMgdGhlIGFiaWxpdHkgdG8ga25vdyB0aGUgYWRkcmVzcyBv ZiBhdHRhY2sgdGFyZ2V0DQogICAgICBiZWxvbmcgdG8gd2hpY2ggbWl0aWdhdG9yobANCiANClRo ZSBkb2N1bWVudCBtYXkgaW5jbHVkZSBhIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gYWJvdXQ6DQoqIHJlZHVuZGFuY3kv YmFja3VwIGNvbnNpZGVyYXRpb25zICh3aXRoIG9yIHdpdGhvdXQgRE9UUyBnYXRld2F5cykuDQoq IGludGVyYWN0aW9uIHdpdGggZmxvdyBjb2xsZWN0b3JzDQogDQpUaGFuayB5b3UuIA0KIA0KQ2hl ZXJzLCAgDQpNZWQNCiANCkRlIDogRG90cyBbbWFpbHRvOmRvdHMtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10g RGUgbGEgcGFydCBkZSBNZWlsaW5nIENoZW4NCkVudm95qKYgOiBtYXJkaSA5IGp1aWxsZXQgMjAx OSAxMDozNA0KqKQgOiBkb3RzDQpPYmpldCA6IFJlOiBbRG90c10gTmV3IFZlcnNpb24gTm90aWZp Y2F0aW9uIGZvciBkcmFmdC1jaGVuLWRvdHMtc2VydmVyLWhpZXJhcmNoaWNhbC1kZXBsb3ltZW50 LTAwLnR4dA0KIA0KSGkgYWxsLA0KSSBoYXZlIHN1Ym1pdGVkIGEgZHJhZnQgd2hpY2ggc29tZSB0 aG91Z2h0cyBhbmQgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMgb24gZG90cyBzZXJ2ZXIgZGVwbG95bWVudCBhcmUgZ2l2 ZW4sIA0KoaQgICAgICAgICBDb25zaWRlciBob3cgdG8gZGVwbG95IGJldHdlZW4gb3BlcmF0b3Jz IGFuZCB3aXRoaW4gb3BlcmF0b3JzLg0KoaQgICAgICAgICBVUkw6aHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tl ci5pZXRmLi5vcmcvZG9jL2RyYWZ0LWNoZW4tZG90cy1zZXJ2ZXItaGllcmFyY2hpY2FsLWRlcGxv eW1lbnQvDQpSZWFkaW5nIGFuZCBDb21tZW50cyBhcmUgbW9yZSB0aGFuIHdlbGNvbWUuDQogDQpC ZXN0IFJlZ2FyZHMsDQpNZWlsaW5nIENoZW4gDQpGcm9tOiBpbnRlcm5ldC1kcmFmdHMNCkRhdGU6 IDIwMTktMDctMDcgMTA6MDkNClRvOiBMaSBTdTsgY2hlbm1laWxpbmc7IEppbiBQZW5nOyBNZWls aW5nIENoZW4NClN1YmplY3Q6IE5ldyBWZXJzaW9uIE5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbiBmb3IgZHJhZnQtY2hl bi1kb3RzLXNlcnZlci1oaWVyYXJjaGljYWwtZGVwbG95bWVudC0wMC50eHQNCiANCkEgbmV3IHZl cnNpb24gb2YgSS1ELCBkcmFmdC1jaGVuLWRvdHMtc2VydmVyLWhpZXJhcmNoaWNhbC1kZXBsb3lt ZW50LTAwLnR4dA0KaGFzIGJlZW4gc3VjY2Vzc2Z1bGx5IHN1Ym1pdHRlZCBieSBNZWlsaW5nIENo ZW4gYW5kIHBvc3RlZCB0byB0aGUNCklFVEYgcmVwb3NpdG9yeS4NCiANCk5hbWU6IGRyYWZ0LWNo ZW4tZG90cy1zZXJ2ZXItaGllcmFyY2hpY2FsLWRlcGxveW1lbnQNClJldmlzaW9uOiAwMA0KVGl0 bGU6IEEgbWV0aG9kIGZvciBkb3RzIHNlcnZlciBkZXBsb3ltZW50DQpEb2N1bWVudCBkYXRlOiAy MDE5LTA3LTA2DQpHcm91cDogSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJtaXNzaW9uDQpQYWdlczogOA0KVVJMOiAg ICAgICAgICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL2ludGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0cy9kcmFmdC1jaGVu LWRvdHMtc2VydmVyLWhpZXJhcmNoaWNhbC1kZXBsb3ltZW50LTAwLnR4dA0KU3RhdHVzOiAgICAg ICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcvZG9jL2RyYWZ0LWNoZW4tZG90cy1zZXJ2 ZXItaGllcmFyY2hpY2FsLWRlcGxveW1lbnQvDQpIdG1saXplZDogICAgICAgaHR0cHM6Ly90b29s cy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LWNoZW4tZG90cy1zZXJ2ZXItaGllcmFyY2hpY2FsLWRlcGxv eW1lbnQtMDANCkh0bWxpemVkOiAgICAgICBodHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2Rv Yy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LWNoZW4tZG90cy1zZXJ2ZXItaGllcmFyY2hpY2FsLWRlcGxveW1lbnQNCiAN CiANCkFic3RyYWN0Og0KICAgQXMgRE9UUyBpcyB1c2VkIGZvciBERG9TIE1pdGlnYXRpb24gc2ln bmFsaW5nLCBJbiBwcmFjdGljZSwgdGhlcmUgYXJlDQogICBkaWZmZXJlbnQgZGVwbG95bWVudCBz Y2VuYXJpb3MgZm9yIERPVFMgYWdlbnRzIGRlcGxveW1lbnQgZGVwZW5kaW5nDQogICBvbiB0aGUg bmV0d29yayBkZXBsb3ltZW50IG1vZGUuICBUaGlzIGRvY3VtZW50IG1hZGUgYW4gYWNjb21tYW5k YXRpb24NCiAgIGZvciBET1RTIFNlcnZlciBkZXBsb3ltZW50IHdoaWNoIG1heSBiZSBTdWl0YWJs ZSBmb3IgSVNQLiAgVGhlIGdvYWwNCiAgIGlzIHRvIHByb3ZpZGUgc29tZSBndWlkYW5jZSBmb3Ig RE9UUyBhZ2VudHMgZGVwbG95bWVudC4NCiANCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICANCiAN CiANClBsZWFzZSBub3RlIHRoYXQgaXQgbWF5IHRha2UgYSBjb3VwbGUgb2YgbWludXRlcyBmcm9t IHRoZSB0aW1lIG9mIHN1Ym1pc3Npb24NCnVudGlsIHRoZSBodG1saXplZCB2ZXJzaW9uIGFuZCBk aWZmIGFyZSBhdmFpbGFibGUgYXQgdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcuDQogDQpUaGUgSUVURiBTZWNyZXRh cmlhdA0KIA0KIA0K ------=_001_NextPart630165737448_=---- Content-Type: text/html; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A=0A
Hi med,
Thank you for your suggestion.
next v= ersion will more details about the interfaces and deployment consideration= s
but I don't get your point about interaction with flow collect= ors? what's your mean of flow collectors? is it clean equipment(mitigator)= ?

<= span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Microsoft YaHei', sans-seri= f;">Best Regards,

Meiling Chen 

Date: 2019-07-16 16:26=
Subject: RE: [Dots] New Version Notifi= cation for draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-00.txt
=0A=0A
=0A

Hi Meiling,=0A=

=0A

<= o:p> 

=0A

Thank for initiating this work.

= =0A

&nb= sp;

=0A

It would be interesting to add more details about the various = interfaces involved in the deployment schemes (e.g. recursive signaling). = This would help assessing=0A whether current DOTS signals are sufficient o= r not.

=0A

<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier Ne= w";color:black"> 

=0A

Also, it would helpful if you can= elaborate further on deployment considerations (and how) to meet some of = the requirements you identified, for example:

=0A

 

=0A
=A1=
=B0   o  DOTS server has the ab=
ility to know the address of attack target
=0A

    &nbs= p; belong to which mitigator=A1=B0=

=0A

 

=0A

The document may include a discussion about:

=0A

* redundancy/backup considerations (with or without DOTS gateways).=

=0A

* interaction with flow collectors

=0A<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; = font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <= /o:p>

=0A

Thank you.=0A

=0A

 

=0A

Cheers,  =

=0A

Med

=0A

 

=0A
=0A
= =0A
=0A

D= e : Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org]=0A= De la part de Meiling Chen
=0AEnvoy=A8=A6 : mardi 9 jui= llet 2019 10:34
=0A=A8=A4 : dots
=0AObjet : = Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchica= l-deployment-00.txt

=0A
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
=0A

Hi a= ll,

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A

I have submited a dr= aft which some thoughts and suggestions on dots server deployment are give= n, 

=0A
=0A

=0A=A1=A4       &nb= sp;=0AConsider how to deploy between operators and within operators.=

=0A

=0A=A1=A4        =0A<= !--[endif]-->URL:https://datatracker.iet= f..org/doc/draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment/

=0A
=0A

Reading and Comments are more than welcome.

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

Best Regard= s,

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A

Meiling Chen 

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A=0A
=0A

Da= te: 2019-07-07 10:09

=0A
=0A=0A
=0A= Subject: N= ew Version Notification for draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment= -00.txt

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
= =0A

 

=0A
=0A
=0A

A new version of I-D,= draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-00.txt=0A

=0A
=0A

has been successfully submitted by Meiling Chen and= posted to the

=0A
=0A
=0A

IETF repository.<= o:p>

=0A
=0A
=0A

 

=0A<= /div>=0A
=0A

Name: draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment=

=0A
=0A
=0A

Revision: 00

= =0A
=0A
=0A

Title: A method for dots server deployment

=0A
=0A
=0A

= Document date: 2019-07-06

=0A
=0A
=0A

Group: Individual Submission=

=0A
=0A
=0A

Pages: 8

=0A
=0A
= =0A

URL:           = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-= deployment-00.txt

=0A
=0A
=0A

Status: &= nbsp;       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc= /draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment/

=0A<= /div>=0A
=0A

Htmlized:       https://too= ls.ietf.org/html/draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-00

=0A
=0A
=0A

Htmlized:     =   https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-chen-dots-server-hierar= chical-deployment

=0A
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
= =0A
=0A

Abstract:

=0A
=0A
=0A

 &nbs= p; As DOTS is used for DDoS Mitigation signaling, In practice, there are

=0A
=0A
=0A

   different deployment= scenarios for DOTS agents deployment depending

=0A=0A
=0A

   on the network deployment mode.  This do= cument made an accommandation

=0A
=0A
=0A

&n= bsp;  for DOTS Server deployment which may be Suitable for ISP. = The goal

=0A
=0A
=0A

   is to pro= vide some guidance for DOTS agents deployment.

=0A=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
=0A

 &nbs= p;            =             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;            =             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;     =0A

=0A
=0A
= =0A

 

=0A
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
=0A

Please note that it may take a couple of minut= es from the time of submission

=0A
=0A
=0Au= ntil the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

=0A
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
= =0A
=0A

The IETF Secretariat

=0A
=0A
=0A=

 

=0A
=0A
=0A

 =

=0A
=0A
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------=_001_NextPart630165737448_=------ From nobody Wed Jul 17 01:55:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3BFE12008C; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 01:55:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6rxO_R01TPqt; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 01:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2548A1200B6; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 01:55:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 200116b82c292800c8cfb4743a3e4aca.dip.versatel-1u1.de ([2001:16b8:2c29:2800:c8cf:b474:3a3e:4aca]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hnfiH-0004ut-K8; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:55:01 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EC96FC2@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:54:58 +0200 Cc: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , Roman Danyliw , "dots@ietf.org" , Benjamin Kaduk , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-dots-data-channel@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <155679628494.24951.9145538661531263463.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA68C8B@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20190701154032.GB13810@kduck.mit.edu> <24FFE7CE-B91A-4CF4-BB85-D6108ACE0043@kuehlewind.net> <642531B0-3E3A-4A5C-BD20-C74AA3698936@kuehlewind.net> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB345F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5C02462E-0067-4A56-940D-15D434676CC6@kuehlewind.net> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EC96FC2@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1563353710;bdb03db4; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hnfiH-0004ut-K8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-?= =?utf-8?q?dots-data-channel-28=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 08:55:13 -0000 Hi Med, Thanks that would be great! Mirja > On 17. Jul 2019, at 10:10, = wrote: >=20 > Hi Mirja,=20 >=20 > Please see inline. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] >> Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 16 juillet 2019 17:16 >> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN >> Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Roman Danyliw; dots@ietf.org; = Benjamin >> Kaduk; The IESG; dots-chairs@ietf.org; draft-ietf-dots-data- >> channel@ietf.org >> Objet : Re: [Dots] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-dots-data- >> channel-28: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >>=20 > [snip] >>>>>=20 >>>>> Sure, will add the following text: >>>>>=20 >>>>> A DOTS client can either maintain a persistent connection or = periodic >>>>> connections with its DOTS server(s). If the DOTS client needs to >>>>> frequently update the drop-list or accept-list filtering rules or >>>>> aliases, it maintains a persistent connection with the DOTS = server. >>>>> For example, CAPTCHA and cryptographic puzzles can be used by the >>>>> mitigation service in the DOTS client domain to determine whether = the >>>>> IP address is used for legitimate purpose or not, and the DOTS = client >>>>> can frequently update the drop-list filtering rules. A persistent >>>>> connection is also useful if the DOTS client subscribes to event >>>>> notifications (Section 6.3 of [RFC8040]). >>>>>=20 >>>>> - Tiru and Med >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks! >>>>=20 >>>> Two more small comments: >>>>=20 >>>> At least to me the term =E2=80=9Cperiodic" is not clear. I guess = mean something >>>> like short-lived connections, where you have a request, you open a >>>> connection, send it, get a reply, and close the connection = immediately >> or >>>> after a short idle period. Or is there actually any kind of = periodicity >> in >>>> the dots protocol in general? Can you pleas clarify. >>>=20 >>> [Med] We are trying to reuse the same terminology as RESTCONF = (draft- >> ietf-netconf-restconf-client-server). >>>=20 >>> For the DOTS case, the DOTS client is required to register and send >> requests to refresh the registration in regular intervals (otherwise, = the >> DOTS client won't be able to created filters). Likewise, cycles will = be >> observed because the client will need to maintains the aliases and = ACLs it >> created. The client may use these cycles for any planned activity = (create >> new aliases, create a new filter, etc.) or not. >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Also if a persistent connection is used, I think it would (again) = be >> good >>>> to clarify what should be done if the connection fails. I think the >> right >>>> advise in this case, is to not reconnect immediately but only if = you >> have >>>> another request to send, right? >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> [Med] draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-server voices for the >> following: >>>=20 >>> Maintain a persistent connection to the >>> RESTCONF server. If the connection goes down, >>> immediately start trying to reconnect to the >>> RESTCONF server, using the reconnection strategy. >>>=20 >>> Which is the right approach, IMO. >>>=20 >>> We didn't touched on connection management because we are relying on >> RESTCONF. DOTS will use whatever strategy adopted for RESTCONF. >>>=20 >>> I don't think it is a good idea to add specific behavior into our = spec. >>=20 >> That is fine. I wasn=E2=80=99t aware that this is specified like this = in RESTCONF >> and that your are replying on it. Instead of (re-)specifying in this = in >> document, I would recommend to actually add a reference to this part = of >> the RESTCONF document and make clear that this is what you are = replying >> on. >=20 > [Med] We can cite draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-server as an = informative reference with the following text: >=20 > Additional considerations > related to RESTCONF connection management (including, configuring = the > connection type or the reconnect strategy) can be found in > [I-D.ietf-netconf-restconf-client-server]. >=20 > Better? >=20 >>=20 >> Thanks! >> Mirja From nobody Wed Jul 17 03:50:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A51C1201DB for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 03:50:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kp1j3TUTO3IX for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 03:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D60301201D6 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 03:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.64]) by opfednr21.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45pYv8327yz5vvm; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 12:50:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme3.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.50.49]) by opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45pYv827tqzDq7x; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 12:50:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCNORMAE.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::897f:9a74:3898:db87]) by OPEXCNORM51.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::151:d815:ec44:f813%20]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 12:50:12 +0200 From: To: Meiling Chen , dots Thread-Topic: RE: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHVPHnoJRU9qaYu7UK+BPXP+kzHwqbOjz1A Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:50:11 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302F641185@OPEXCNORMAE.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <156246539991.3273.3216673143517865297.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>, <2019070916342639919923@chinamobile.com>, <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAE5D7E@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <201907171630300752479@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: <201907171630300752479@chinamobile.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.246] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302F641185OPEXCNORMAEcorp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:50:16 -0000 --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302F641185OPEXCNORMAEcorp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Meiling, What I meant is a function such as netflow/ipfix collector. Cheers, Med De : Meiling Chen [mailto:chenmeiling@chinamobile.com] Envoy=E9 : mercredi 17 juillet 2019 10:31 =C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; dots Objet : Re: RE: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-chen-dots-server-= hierarchical-deployment-00.txt Hi med, Thank you for your suggestion. next version will more details about the interfaces and deployment consider= ations but I don't get your point about interaction with flow collectors? what's y= our mean of flow collectors? is it clean equipment(mitigator)? Best Regards, Meiling Chen From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com Date: 2019-07-16 16:26 To: Meiling Chen; dots Subject: RE: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-chen-dots-server-hie= rarchical-deployment-00.txt Hi Meiling, Thank for initiating this work. It would be interesting to add more details about the various interfaces in= volved in the deployment schemes (e.g. recursive signaling). This would hel= p assessing whether current DOTS signals are sufficient or not. Also, it would helpful if you can elaborate further on deployment considera= tions (and how) to meet some of the requirements you identified, for exampl= e: " o DOTS server has the ability to know the address of attack target belong to which mitigator" The document may include a discussion about: * redundancy/backup considerations (with or without DOTS gateways). * interaction with flow collectors Thank you. Cheers, Med De : Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Meiling Chen Envoy=E9 : mardi 9 juillet 2019 10:34 =E0 : dots Objet : Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-chen-dots-server-hier= archical-deployment-00.txt Hi all, I have submited a draft which some thoughts and suggestions on dots server = deployment are given, * Consider how to deploy between operators and within operators. * URL:https://datatracker.ietf..org/doc/draft-chen-dots-server-hier= archical-deployment/ Reading and Comments are more than welcome. Best Regards, Meiling Chen From: internet-drafts Date: 2019-07-07 10:09 To: Li Su; chenmeiling; Jin Peng; Meiling Chen Subject: New Version Notification for draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-d= eployment-00.txt A new version of I-D, draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Meiling Chen and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment Revision: 00 Title: A method for dots server deployment Document date: 2019-07-06 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 8 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chen-dots-server= -hierarchical-deployment-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-dots-server-hie= rarchical-deployment/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chen-dots-server-hierarch= ical-deployment-00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-chen-dots-serve= r-hierarchical-deployment Abstract: As DOTS is used for DDoS Mitigation signaling, In practice, there are different deployment scenarios for DOTS agents deployment depending on the network deployment mode. This document made an accommandation for DOTS Server deployment which may be Suitable for ISP. The goal is to provide some guidance for DOTS agents deployment. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302F641185OPEXCNORMAEcorp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Meiling,

 

What I meant is a function such= as netflow/ipfix collector.  

 

Cheers,

Med

 

De : Meil= ing Chen [mailto:chenmeiling@chinamobile.com]
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 17 juillet 2019 10:31
=C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; dots
Objet : Re: RE: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-chen-= dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-00.txt

 

Hi med,<= /span>

Thank you for your = suggestion.

next version will m= ore details about the interfaces and deployment considerations

but I don't get you= r point about interaction with flow collectors? what's your mean of flow co= llectors? is it clean equipment(mitigator)?

 

Best Regards,

Meiling Chen <= /span>

Date: 2019-07-16 16:26<= /o:p>

Subject: RE: [Dots] New Version N= otification for draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-00.txt

Hi Meiling,

 

Thank for initiating this work.=

 

It would be interesting to add = more details about the various interfaces involved in the deployment scheme= s (e.g. recursive signaling). This would help assessing whether current DOTS signals are sufficient or not.

 

Also, it would helpful if you c= an elaborate further on deployment considerations (and how) to meet some of= the requirements you identified, for example:=

 

“   o  DOTS server has the a=
bility to know the address of attack target<=
/pre>

      =
belong to which mitigator“


 


The document may include a disc=
ussion about:


* redundancy/backup considerati=
ons (with or without DOTS gateways).

* interaction with flow collect=
ors


 


Thank you.



 


Cheers,  


Med


 








De : Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org]
De la part de Meiling Chen

Envoy=E9 : mardi 9 juillet 2019 10:34

=E0 : dots

Objet : Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-chen-dots=
-server-hierarchical-deployment-00.txt<=
/p>





 






Hi all,








I have submited a d=
raft which some thoughts and suggestions on dots server deployment are give=
n, 





=B7<=
span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","=
;serif";color:black">        
Consider how to deploy between oper=
ators and within operators.



=B7<=
span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","=
;serif";color:black">        
URL:https://datatracker.ietf..org/d=
oc/draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment/




Reading and Comment=
s are more than welcome.




 




Best Regards,








Meiling Chen <=
/span>













 






A new version of I-=
D, draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-00.txt=







has been successful=
ly submitted by Meiling Chen and posted to the=







IETF repository.






 






Name: draft-chen-do=
ts-server-hierarchical-deployment






Revision: 00=







Title: A method for=
 dots server deployment






Document date: 2019=
-07-06






Group: Individual S=
ubmission






Pages: 8






URL:  &nb=
sp;         https://www.ietf.org/in=
ternet-drafts/draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-00.txt<=
span style=3D"font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";col=
or:black">






Status:  =
       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft=
-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment/






Htmlized: &nbs=
p;     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chen-dots-serv=
er-hierarchical-deployment-00






Htmlized: &nbs=
p;     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-chen=
-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment





 






 






Abstract:






   As DOT=
S is used for DDoS Mitigation signaling, In practice, there are






   differ=
ent deployment scenarios for DOTS agents deployment depending






   on the=
 network deployment mode.  This document made an accommandation=







   for DO=
TS Server deployment which may be Suitable for ISP.  The goal






   is to =
provide some guidance for DOTS agents deployment.






 






   &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;            &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;            &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;            &=
nbsp;  







 






 






Please note that it=
 may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission=







until the htmlized =
version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.






 






The IETF Secretaria=
t






 






 
--_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302F641185OPEXCNORMAEcorp_-- From nobody Wed Jul 17 05:15:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E7BC1203A4; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 05:15:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wnXNMDaefZ_g; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 05:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A1E912038A; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 05:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar05.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.7]) by opfedar26.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45pbnq348fzFsgJ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 14:15:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme3.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.50.59]) by opfedar05.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45pbnq1VBpz2xCl; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 14:15:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCNORMAE.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::897f:9a74:3898:db87]) by OPEXCNORM73.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::3991:195b:e05c:93d5%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 14:15:43 +0200 From: To: Mirja Kuehlewind CC: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" , "dots@ietf.org" , The IESG , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , Benjamin Kaduk Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W0RvdHNdICBCZWhhdmlvciB3aGVuIGtlZXAtYWxpdmVzIGZhaWwgKFJFOiAg?= =?utf-8?B?IE1pcmphIEvDvGhsZXdpbmQncyBEaXNjdXNzIG9uIGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtZG90?= =?utf-8?Q?s-signal-channel-31:_(with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT)?= Thread-Index: AQHVO+zmzhyXOwvkyUu6dskqVyjY5abOpq+Q Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 12:15:42 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302F643236@OPEXCNORMAE.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2ABA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2CC5@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2F77@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <06e901d531a8$38f38d90$aadaa8b0$@jpshallow.com> <2B716406-0554-4DC6-B6F9-057A9D4D85C4@kuehlewind.net> <072901d531d3$bdd39c00$397ad400$@jpshallow.com> <75AF98A2-C7AE-48DD-B054-F25CCA2C8367@kuehlewind.net> In-Reply-To: <75AF98A2-C7AE-48DD-B054-F25CCA2C8367@kuehlewind.net> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.246] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Behavior_when_keep-alives_fail_=28RE=3A___Mirja?= =?utf-8?q?_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-3?= =?utf-8?q?1=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 12:15:47 -0000 SGkgTWlyamEsDQoNCkdsYWQgdG8gc2VlIHRoYXQgd2UgYXJlIHByb2dyZXNzaW5nLiBXaXRoIHJl Z2FyZHMgdG8gdGhlIHJlbWFpbmluZyBpc3N1ZSwgbGV0J3MgcmVjYXAgb24gdGhlIGludGVuZGVk IGZ1bmN0aW9uYWxpdHkgYW5kIGdlbmVyYWwgb2JzZXJ2YXRpb25zLg0KDQoqIFdoYXQgaXMgdGhl IGludGVuZGVkIGZ1bmN0aW9uYWxpdHk/DQoNCigxKSBXaGF0IHdlIG5lZWQgaXMgYSBjaGVjayB0 byBhc3Nlc3MgdGhlIGxpdmVuZXNzIG9mIHRoZSBwZWVyIERPVFMgYWdlbnQgKyBtYWludGFpbiBO QVQvRlcgc3RhdGUgb24gb24tcGF0aCBkZXZpY2VzLiANCiANCigyKSBDb0FQIGRvZXMgbm90IGlt cG9zZSBob3cgQ29BUCBQaW5nIG1lc3NhZ2VzIHNob3VsZCBiZSBzZW50LCBob3cgdGhlaXIgcmVz cG9uc2UgKG9yIGxhY2sgb2YpIHNob3VsZCBiZSBpbnRlcnByZXRlZCwgZXRjLiBUaGlzIGlzIGxl ZnQgdG8gdGhlIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9uLg0KDQooMykgSW4gYSBERG9TIGNvbnRleHQsIGZhaWx1cmUg dG8gcmVjZWl2ZSBoZWFydGJlYXRzICoqIHNob3VsZCBub3QgKiogYmUgc3lzdGVtYXRpY2FsbHkg aW50ZXJwcmV0ZWQgYXMgdGhlIHNlc3Npb24gaXMgZGVmdW5jdC4gVG8gdGhhdCBhaW0sIGEgc3Bl 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Y29tcGxleGl0eSwgc2lkZSBlZmZlY3RzLCAuLi4pLCB3ZSBkb24ndCBzZWUgYSByZWFzb24gdG8g Y2hhbmdlIHRoZSBjdXJyZW50IGFwcHJvYWNoLiANCg0KVGhhbmsgeW91LiANCg0KQ2hlZXJzLA0K Sm9uL1RpcnUvTWVkDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1NZXNzYWdlIGQnb3JpZ2luZS0tLS0tDQo+IERlwqA6IE1p cmphIEt1ZWhsZXdpbmQgW21haWx0bzppZXRmQGt1ZWhsZXdpbmQubmV0XQ0KPiBFbnZvecOpwqA6 IG1hcmRpIDE2IGp1aWxsZXQgMjAxOSAxNzo0MQ0KPiDDgMKgOiBLb25kYSwgVGlydW1hbGVzd2Fy IFJlZGR5DQo+IENjwqA6IEpvbiBTaGFsbG93OyBCT1VDQURBSVIgTW9oYW1lZCBUR0kvT0xOOyBk cmFmdC1pZXRmLWRvdHMtc2lnbmFsLQ0KPiBjaGFubmVsQGlldGYub3JnOyBkb3RzQGlldGYub3Jn OyBmcmFuay54aWFsaWFuZ0BodWF3ZWkuY29tOyBUaGUgSUVTRzsNCj4gZG90cy1jaGFpcnNAaWV0 Zi5vcmc7IEJlbmphbWluIEthZHVrDQo+IE9iamV0wqA6IFJlOiBbRG90c10gQmVoYXZpb3Igd2hl biBrZWVwLWFsaXZlcyBmYWlsIChSRTogTWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZCdzDQo+IERpc2N1c3Mgb24g ZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1kb3RzLXNpZ25hbC1jaGFubmVsLTMxOiAod2l0aCBESVNDVVNTIGFuZCBDT01N RU5UKQ0KPiANCj4gSGkgVGlydSwNCj4gDQo+IFRoYW5rcyBmb3IgdGhlIHVwZGF0ZXMuIEkgdGhp bmsgdGhlcmUgaXMgb25lIHJlbWFpbmluZyBpc3N1ZSBvbiB0aGUgdXNlIG9mDQo+IHBpbmcvaGVh cnQtYmVhdHMgKHNlZSBhbHNvIG15IG90aGVyIG1lc3NhZ2UpLiBIb3dldmVyLCBJIGJlbGlldmUg YWxsIG90aGVyDQo+IGRpc2N1c3MgcG9pbnRzIGhhdmUgYmVlbiBhZGRyZXNzZWQgbm93LiBUaGFu a3MgZm9yIHRoYXQhDQo+IA0KPiBNaXJqYQ0KPiANCj4gDQoNCg== From nobody Wed Jul 17 17:35:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0FE71200FA for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 17:35:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ma4K7yap8qbZ for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 17:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta2.chinamobile.com (cmccmta2.chinamobile.com [221.176.66.80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A8F12002E for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 17:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.121.3]) by rmmx-syy-dmz-app06-12006 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee65d2fbeb3f39-8f2f7; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 08:34:59 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee65d2fbeb3f39-8f2f7 X-RM-TagInfo: emlType=0 X-RM-SPAM-FLAG: 00000000 Received: from cmcc-PC (unknown[10.2.51.70]) by rmsmtp-syy-appsvr02-12002 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee25d2fbeb1802-cffaa; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 08:34:59 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee25d2fbeb1802-cffaa Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 08:35:02 +0800 From: "Meiling Chen" To: mohamed.boucadair , dots References: <156246539991.3273.3216673143517865297.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>, <2019070916342639919923@chinamobile.com>, <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAE5D7E@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>, <201907171630300752479@chinamobile.com>, <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302F641185@OPEXCNORMAE.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> X-Priority: 3 X-Has-Attach: no X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.2.9.115[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <201907180835015192257@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart366612511677_=----" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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------=_001_NextPart366612511677_=---- Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A= =0A
Hi med,
* redundancy/backup cons= iderations (with or without DOTS gateways).
This draft consider about the dots server deployme= nt and interaction with mitigator, dots gateway between dots client and do= ts server is out of scope.
but dots server backup will be take into consideration.
<= div>
=0A
=0A
 
Date: 2019-07-17 18:50=
Subject: RE: RE: [Dots] New Version No= tification for draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-00.txt
=
=0A=0A
=0A

Hi Meiling,=0A

=0A

 

=0A

What I meant is a function such = as netflow/ipfix collector.  

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=0A

Cheers,

=0A

Med

=0A

 

=0A
=0A

De := Meiling Chen [mailto:chenmeiling@chinamobile.com]= =0A
=0AEnvoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 17 juillet 2019 10:31
=0A<= b>=C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; dots
=0AObjet :<= /b> Re: RE: [Dots] New Version Notification for draft-chen-dots-server-hie= rarchical-deployment-00.txt

=0A
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

= Hi med,

=0A
= =0A
=0A

Thank = you for your suggestion.

=0A
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next version will more de= tails about the interfaces and deployment considerations=

=0A
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but I don't get your point about interaction with flow collectors? = what's your mean of flow collectors? is it clean equipment(mitigator)?

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Best Regards= ,

=0A
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Meiling Chen 

=0A
=0A
=0A
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=0A

From:<= span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-se= rif";color:black"> mohamed.boucadair@or= ange.com

=0A
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Date:=  2019-07-16 16:26<= /p>=0A

=0A
=0A

To: = ;Meiling=0A Chen; dots

=0A
=0A
=0A

Subject: RE: [Dots] New Version Notification=0A for draft-chen-dots-= server-hierarchical-deployment-00.txt

=0A
=0A=0A
=0A
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=0A

Hi Meiling,= =0A

=0A

 

=0A

Thank for initiating this work.

=0A

&nb= sp;

=0A

It would be interesting to add more details about the va= rious interfaces involved in the deployment schemes (e.g. recursive signal= ing). This would help assessing=0A whether current DOTS signals are suffic= ient or not.

=0A

 =0A

Also, it would helpful if= you can elaborate further on deployment considerations (and how) to meet = some of the requirements you identified, for example:

=0A

&nbs= p;

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=
=E2=80=9C   o  DOTS server has the ability to know the addr=
ess of attack target
=0A

      belong to w= hich mitigator=E2=80=9C

=0A

 =

=0A

The document ma= y include a discussion about:

=0A<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; = font-family: SimSun;">* redundancy/backup considerat= ions (with or without DOTS gateways).=

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* interaction with flo= w collectors

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= =0A

Thank you.=0A

=0A

=0A

Cheers,  =

=0A

Med

=0A

&nb= sp;

=0A
=0A
=0A
De : Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org]=0ADe la= part de Meiling Chen
=0AEnvoy=C3=A9 : mardi 9 juillet = 2019 10:34
=0A=C3=A0 : dots
=0AObjet : Re: [= Dots] New Version Notification for draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-dep= loyment-00.txt

=0A
=0A
= =0A

 

=0A
= =0A
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Hi all= ,

=0A
=0A
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I have submited a dra= ft which some thoughts and suggestions on dots server deployment are given= , 

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=0A=C2=B7        = =0AConsider how to deploy between= operators and within operators.

= =0A

=0A=C2=B7     &= nbsp;  =0AURL:https://d= atatracker.ietf..org/doc/draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment/

=0A
=0A

<= span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei",&qu= ot;sans-serif";color:black">Reading and Comments are more than welcom= e.

=0A
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 =

=0A
=0A

Best Regards,

=0A
=0A=0A
=0A

Mei= ling Chen 

=0A
=0A
= =0A
=0A
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= =0A

From: internet-drafts

=0A=0A
=0A

Date: 2019-07-= 07 10:09

=0A
=0A=0A
=0A

Subject: New Version Notification for draft-chen-dots-server= -hierarchical-deployment-00.txt

= =0A
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 =0A

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A new version of I-D, draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-= 00.txt

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has been successfully su= bmitted by Meiling Chen and posted to the

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IETF repository.

=0A=0A
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&nb= sp;

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Name: draft-chen-dots-ser= ver-hierarchical-deployment

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Rev= ision: 00

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Title: A method for d= ots server deployment

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Document = date: 2019-07-06

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Group: Individ= ual Submission

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= =0A

Pages: 8

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URL:     &n= bsp;      https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/dr= aft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment-00.txt

=0A
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Status:       &n= bsp; https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-= deployment/

=0A
=0A
=0AHtmlized: &nbs= p;     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chen-dots-ser= ver-hierarchical-deployment-00

=0A=
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= Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org= /doc/html/draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-deployment

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Abstract:

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   As DOTS is used for DDoS Miti= gation signaling, In practice, there are

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   different deployment scenarios for DOTS agents depl= oyment depending

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   o= n the network deployment mode.  This document made an accommandation<= /span>

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   for DOTS Server de= ployment which may be Suitable for ISP.  The goal

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   is to provide some guidance for DOT= S agents deployment.

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     &nbs= p;            =             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;            =             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p; =0A

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 =

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Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of s= ubmission

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until the htmlized ve= rsion and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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The IE= TF Secretariat

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 <= span style=3D"font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";co= lor:black">

=0A
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=0A<= /blockquote>=0A
=0A
=0A
------=_001_NextPart366612511677_=------ From nobody Thu Jul 18 08:24:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 118351203DE; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 08:24:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bivxiDBwTCVu; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 08:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86A96120172; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 08:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 200116b82c886c005093af0e85c019b4.dip.versatel-1u1.de ([2001:16b8:2c88:6c00:5093:af0e:85c0:19b4]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1ho8H4-0003cl-9R; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 17:24:50 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302F643236@OPEXCNORMAE.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 17:24:49 +0200 Cc: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" , Benjamin Kaduk , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "dots@ietf.org" , The IESG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2ABA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2CC5@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB2F77@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <06e901d531a8$38f38d90$aadaa8b0$@jpshallow.com> <2B716406-0554-4DC6-B6F9-057A9D4D85C4@kuehlewind.net> <072901d531d3$bdd39c00$397ad400$@jpshallow.com> <75AF98A2-C7AE-48DD-B054-F25CCA2C8367@kuehlewind.net> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302F643236@OPEXCNORMAE.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1563463494;da4b4751; X-HE-SMSGID: 1ho8H4-0003cl-9R Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Behavior_when_keep-alives_fail_=28RE=3A___Mirja?= =?utf-8?q?_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-3?= =?utf-8?q?1=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 15:24:57 -0000 Hi Med, Thanks for this nice summary. Please see inline. > On 17. Jul 2019, at 14:15, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >=20 > Hi Mirja, >=20 > Glad to see that we are progressing. With regards to the remaining = issue, let's recap on the intended functionality and general = observations. >=20 > * What is the intended functionality? >=20 > (1) What we need is a check to assess the liveness of the peer DOTS = agent + maintain NAT/FW state on on-path devices.=20 >=20 > (2) CoAP does not impose how CoAP Ping messages should be sent, how = their response (or lack of) should be interpreted, etc. This is left to = the application. >=20 > (3) In a DDoS context, failure to receive heartbeats ** should not ** = be systematically interpreted as the session is defunct. To that aim, a = specific behavior is followed at the DOTS layer (not CoAP layer). The = DOTS layer instructs the CoAP layer (DOTS session, and mitigation = operations) accordingly. =20 >=20 > * Why CoAP Pings? >=20 > CoAP Pings naturally achieve (1). These messages are interesting = because they have small message sizes. CoAP Ping uses Empty Confirmable = message (no request) and the response is a Reset message (which is = empty). >=20 > CoAP Ping can be used ** as-is ** during idle time (no attack). Agreed to hear. > Multiple Ping failures and Ping exchange in both directions is = required only during the attack time to really detect if the peer is = dead or alive (because of (3)). This is understood but that=E2=80=99s not what ping is designed for. >=20 > This is aligned with (2). >=20 > * Why not DOTS-specific messages? >=20 > If we have to define such message, it needs to be the smallest = footprint as practical. I think I don=E2=80=99t quite understand this requirement. But let=E2=80=99= s go on... > An Empty message is inexpensive, nevertheless empty Non-confirmable = messages are not allowed (See rfc7252#section-4.3) and sending the Reset = message is optional.=20 >=20 > Furthermore, if heartbeats were non-confirmable that means that we = would need to get the application layer to do any recovery work. It=E2=80=99s not really recovery work, it=E2=80=99s how ping usually = works. But yes, the application would need to care about anything like = this here, but actually as you want to send frequently messages even if = no confirmation is received, you actually don=E2=80=99t want to send = them reliably and there it=E2=80=99s not really a retransmission. It=E2=80= =99s rather sending a new message at a defined time frame. > It is much simpler to make them confirmable and delegate the recovery = work to CoAP layer. I you want a mechanism that checks both side of the connectivity using a = non-confirmable message with ping and pong at the application makes more = sense and actually has a =E2=80=9Csmaller footprint=E2=80=9D because you = only send one message in each direction instead of an empty message + = ack in both. > =20 >=20 > So, even if we did it in the DOTS layer it will be the same as "CoAP = ping=E2=80=9D. It=E2=80=99s not because it will cover both directions and you can = directly indicate if a pong was received or not. I think that=E2=80=99s = a functionality that your are actually looking for and is not provided = with the lower layer ping. >=20 > The WG did not see a reason to re-do the same in the application = layer. It=E2=80=99s usual to have keep-alive mechanism at multiple layers to = cover different needs. Naturally if you implement a keep-alive at a = higher layer (which send messages often enough), you can enable also = keep-alive as the lower layer(s), however, which will normally not = become active as you have messages on the higher layer before the idle = timer expires. Therefore it would be easy do design a more dedicated = mechanism for the DDoS case and use COAP pings for the =E2=80=9Cnormal=E2=80= =9D case to address your function (1). > In DOTS, the CoAP ping is initiated by the application (DOTS layer = itself) and CoAP layer only handles the retransmissions. The proposed = mechanism does not require an update to the CoAP stack other with the = assumption that callback handlers are supported to give visibility of = when a ping or pong was received by the CoAP layer in the application = layer. Which probably is an update to any COAP implementation. And usually = something that should not be exposed because in this case it=E2=80=99s = solely a lower layer function. The app should activate keep-alive, = configure the idle time and get notified when the connection has been = detected to be not alive anymore. > As such, the current design is pragmatic.=20 >=20 > The DOTS layer has the ** full control required for the intended = functionality **. >=20 > * Why separating heartbeats parameters from CoAP transmission ones? >=20 > We need to allow for a differentiated handling of heartbeats during = idle/mitigation times. To that aim, we defined specific heartbeat = parameters for each of these times without touching the CoAP connection = parameters. If you define a separate parameter that needs to be implemented and = handled, you can also implement an own mechanism for the DDoS case. > All the message transmission parameters including missing-hb-allowed = are configurable using the DOTS signal channel (see = draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-35#section-4.5) and these message = transmission parameter including the missing-hb-allowed is only used for = UDP transport. >=20 > One last comment about adjusting CoAP parameter values, we spent in = the WG a lot of cycles to discuss this particular point. The conclusion = of the WG is that 4 retransmits (that corresponds to the default value = of MAX_RETRANSMIT) are not sufficient to detect the session is = disconnected during volumetric=20 > DDoS attack saturating the incoming link, and which will lead to high = packet loss. This is why multiple heartbeat losses are required to = detect the session is defunct. >=20 I believe you spend so much discussion time because you are misusing a = mechanism that was not designed for your purpose instead of design a = proper one. > Unless there is a flaw with the current design (fail to achieve the = intended functionality, implementation complexity, side effects, ...), = we don't see a reason to change the current approach.=20 I believe there are flaws in the design. First it=E2=80=99s a layer = violation, but if more an idealistic concern but usually designing in = layers is a good approach. But more importantly, you end up with = un-frequent messages which may still terminate the connection at some = point, while what you want is to simply send messages frequently in an = unreliable fashion but a low rate until the attack is over. Please have a discussion with the working group about an alternative = mechanism. The meeting is next week and I hope it would be possible to = get some time for that in the dots session. I unfortunately won=E2=80=99t be able to make it to the session but I = will sync up with Ben. Mirja >=20 > Thank you.=20 >=20 > Cheers, > Jon/Tiru/Med >=20 >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] >> Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 16 juillet 2019 17:41 >> =C3=80 : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >> Cc : Jon Shallow; BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; draft-ietf-dots-signal- >> channel@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; The IESG; >> dots-chairs@ietf.org; Benjamin Kaduk >> Objet : Re: [Dots] Behavior when keep-alives fail (RE: Mirja = K=C3=BChlewind's >> Discuss on draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-31: (with DISCUSS and = COMMENT) >>=20 >> Hi Tiru, >>=20 >> Thanks for the updates. I think there is one remaining issue on the = use of >> ping/heart-beats (see also my other message). However, I believe all = other >> discuss points have been addressed now. Thanks for that! >>=20 >> Mirja >>=20 >>=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Jul 18 23:57:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E63BA1200C1; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 23:57:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DYJ3Lkv4obaB; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 23:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E5261200B7; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 23:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar01.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.2]) by opfedar26.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45qhdb5Hv6zFr15; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:57:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.23]) by opfedar01.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45qhdb4MlQzBrLs; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:57:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM41.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:57:23 +0200 From: To: "Benjamin Kaduk (kaduk@mit.edu)" , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) Thread-Index: AdU9/zWZw7DhsbF6RNCA2PYrEJMCCA== Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:57:23 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302FA841A9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:57:28 -0000 SGkgQmVuLCBjaGFpcnMsIGFsbCwgDQoNCihyZXN0cmljdGluZyB0aGUgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiB0byB0 aGUgQUQvY2hhaXJzL1dHKQ0KDQoqIFN0YXR1czoNCg0KQWxsIERJU0NVU1MgcG9pbnRzIGZyb20g TWlyamEncyByZXZpZXcgd2VyZSBmaXhlZCwgZXhjZXB0IHRoZSBvbmUgZGlzY3Vzc2VkIGluIHRo aXMgbWVzc2FnZS4NCg0KKiBQZW5kaW5nIFBvaW50OiANCg0KUmF0aGVyIHRoYW4gZ29pbmcgaW50 byBtdWNoIGRldGFpbHMsIEkgY29uc2lkZXIgdGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZyBhcyB0aGUgc3VtbWFyeSBv ZiB0aGUgcmVtYWluaW5nIERJU0NVU1MgcG9pbnQgZnJvbSBNaXJqYToNCg0KPiBJIGJlbGlldmUg dGhlcmUgYXJlIGZsYXdzIGluIHRoZSBkZXNpZ24uIEZpcnN0IGl04oCZcyBhIGxheWVyIHZpb2xh dGlvbiwgYnV0DQo+IGlmIG1vcmUgYW4gaWRlYWxpc3RpYyBjb25jZXJuIGJ1dCB1c3VhbGx5IGRl c2lnbmluZyBpbiBsYXllcnMgaXMgYSBnb29kDQo+IGFwcHJvYWNoLiBCdXQgbW9yZSBpbXBvcnRh bnRseSwgeW91IGVuZCB1cCB3aXRoIHVuLWZyZXF1ZW50IG1lc3NhZ2VzIHdoaWNoDQo+IG1heSBz dGlsbCB0ZXJtaW5hdGUgdGhlIGNvbm5lY3Rpb24gYXQgc29tZSBwb2ludCwgd2hpbGUgd2hhdCB5 b3Ugd2FudCBpcw0KPiB0byBzaW1wbHkgc2VuZCBtZXNzYWdlcyBmcmVxdWVudGx5IGluIGFuIHVu cmVsaWFibGUgZmFzaGlvbiBidXQgYSBsb3cgcmF0ZQ0KPiB1bnRpbCB0aGUgYXR0YWNrIGlzIG92 ZXIuDQoNCiogRGlzY3Vzc2lvbjogDQoNCigxKSBGaXJzdCBvZiBhbGwsIGxldCdzIHJlbWluZCB0 aGF0IFJGQzcyNTIgZG9lcyBub3QgZGVmaW5lIGhvdyBDb0FQIHBpbmcgbXVzdCBiZSB1c2VkLiBJ dCBkb2VzIG9ubHkgc2F5OiANCg0KPT0NCiAgICAgIFByb3Zva2luZyBhIFJlc2V0DQogICAgICBt ZXNzYWdlIChlLmcuLCBieSBzZW5kaW5nIGFuIEVtcHR5IENvbmZpcm1hYmxlIG1lc3NhZ2UpIGlz IGFsc28NCiAgICAgIHVzZWZ1bCBhcyBhbiBpbmV4cGVuc2l2ZSBjaGVjayBvZiB0aGUgbGl2ZW5l c3Mgb2YgYW4gZW5kcG9pbnQNCiAgICAgICgiQ29BUCBwaW5nIikuDQo9PQ0KDQpIb3cgdGhlIGxp dmVuZXNzIGlzIGFzc2Vzc2VkIGlzIGxlZnQgdG8gYXBwbGljYXRpb25zLiBTbywgdGhlcmUgaXMg Kiogbm8gbGF5ZXIgdmlvbGF0aW9uICoqLiANCg0KKDIpIFdoYXQgd2UgbmVlZCBpc24ndCAodGV4 dCBmcm9tIE1pcmphKToNCg0KPiB0byBzaW1wbHkgc2VuZCBtZXNzYWdlcyBmcmVxdWVudGx5IGlu IGFuIHVucmVsaWFibGUgZmFzaGlvbiBidXQgYSBsb3cgcmF0ZQ0KPiB1bnRpbCB0aGUgYXR0YWNr IGlzIG92ZXIgIg0KDQpJdCBpcyBhY3R1YWxseSB0aGUgb3RoZXIgd2F5IGFyb3VuZC4gVGhlIHNw ZWMgc2F5czogDQoNCiAgIi4uLiBUaGlzIGlzIHBhcnRpY3VsYXJseSB1c2VmdWwgZm9yIERPVFMN CiAgIHNlcnZlcnMgdGhhdCBtaWdodCB3YW50IHRvIHJlZHVjZSBoZWFydGJlYXQgZnJlcXVlbmN5 IG9yIGNlYXNlDQogICBoZWFydGJlYXQgZXhjaGFuZ2VzIHdoZW4gYW4gYWN0aXZlIERPVFMgY2xp ZW50IGhhcyBub3QgcmVxdWVzdGVkDQogICBtaXRpZ2F0aW9uLiINCg0KV2hhdCB3ZSB3YW50IGNh biBiZSBmb3JtYWxpemVkIGFzOiANCiAtIFRha2luZyBpbnRvIGFjY291bnQgRERvUyB0cmFmZmlj IGNvbmRpdGlvbnMsIGEgY2hlY2sgdG8gYXNzZXNzIHRoZSBsaXZlbmVzcyBvZiB0aGUgcGVlciBE T1RTIGFnZW50ICsgbWFpbnRhaW4gTkFUL0ZXIHN0YXRlIG9uIG9uLXBhdGggZGV2aWNlcy4NCg0K QW4gbXVjaCBtb3JlIGVsYWJvcmF0ZWQgdmVyc2lvbiBpcyBkb2N1bWVudGVkIGluIFNJRy0wMDQg b2YgUkZDIDg2MTIuDQoNCiogTXkgYW5hbHlzaXM6IA0KDQotIFRoZSBpbnRlbmRlZCBmdW5jdGlv bmFsaXR5IGlzIG5hdHVyYWxseSBwcm92aWRlZCBieSBleGlzdGluZyBDb0FQIG1lc3NhZ2VzLg0K LSBJbmZvcm1lZCBXRyBkZWNpc2lvbjogVGhlIFdHIHNwZW50IGEgbG90IG9mIGN5Y2xlcyB3aGVu IHNwZWNpZnlpbmcgdGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgYmVoYXZpb3IgdG8gYmUgbWVldCB0aGUgcmVxdWlyZW1l bnRzIHNldCBpbiBSRkM4NjEyLg0KLSBXaHkgbm90IGFuIGFsdGVybmF0aXZlIGRlc2lnbjogV2Ug Y2FuIGFsd2F5cyBkZWZpbmUgbWVzc2FnZXMgd2l0aCBkdXBsaWNhdGVkIGZ1bmN0aW9uYWxpdHks IGJ1dCB0aGF0IGlzIG5vdCBhIGdvb2QgZGVzaWduIGFwcHJvYWNoIGVzcGVjaWFsbHkgd2hlbiB0 aGVyZSBpcyBubyBldmlkZW50IGJlbmVmaXQuIA0KLSBUaGUgc3BlY2lmaWNhdGlvbiBpcyBub3Qg YnJva2VuOiBpdCB3YXMgaW1wbGVtZW50ZWQgYW5kIHRlc3RlZC4NCg0KQW5kIGEgbG9naXN0aWMg Y29tbWVudDogdGhpcyBpc3N1ZSBmaXRzIElNSE8gdW5kZXIgdGhlIG5vbi1kaXNjdXNzIGNyaXRl cmlhIGluIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL2Jsb2cvZGlzY3Vzcy1jcml0ZXJpYS1pZXNnLXJl dmlldy8jc3RhbmQtdW5kaXNjLiANCg0KKiBXaGF0J3MgTmV4dD8NCg0KQXMgYW4gZWRpdG9yLCBJ IGRvbid0IHRoaW5rIGEgY2hhbmdlIGlzIG5lZWRlZCBidXQgSSdkIGxpa2UgdG8gaGVhciBmcm9t IEJlbiwgY2hhaXJzLCBhbmQgdGhlIFdHLiANCg0KUGxlYXNlIHNoYXJlIHlvdXIgdGhvdWdodHMg YW5kIHdoZXRoZXIgeW91IGFncmVlL2Rpc2FncmVlIHdpdGggdGhlIGFib3ZlIGFuYWx5c2lzLiAN Cg0KQ2hlZXJzLA0KTWVkDQo= From nobody Fri Jul 19 01:53:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 421EC1202C9; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:53:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PhgYBkHSDUxK; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:53:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.jpshallow.com (mail.jpshallow.com [217.40.240.153]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 995FA1202D2; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:53:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.jpshallow.com ([192.168.0.3] helo=N01332) by mail.jpshallow.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hoOdx-0003zE-EV; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:53:33 +0100 From: "Jon Shallow" To: , "'Benjamin Kaduk'" , , References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302FA841A9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302FA841A9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:53:38 +0100 Message-ID: <06ad01d53e0f$74d9a5b0$5e8cf110$@jpshallow.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQI3NMpmTxo3A+0PVQS1r9HIn/ZDyqYNsaXQ Content-Language: en-gb Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:53:40 -0000 Hi there, I concur with what Med is saying. "If it is not broken, do not fix it". IETF 103 Interop ( = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/materials/slides-103-dots-intero= p-report-from-ietf-103-hackathon-00.pdf ) did exhaustively test out the = heartbeat mechanism (and the interactions with other parts of the DOTS = protocol) under attack scenarios and found that the then version of the = DOTS signal draft worked as expected. Yes, we can move the heartbeat mechanism into the DOTS layer, but that = will require changes to the DOTS signal draft and will again need to be = thoroughly tested for functionality (in particular interaction with = other parts of the protocol definitions) under adverse network = conditions. Regards Jon > -----Original Message----- > From: Dots [mailto: dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ietf-supjps-mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > Sent: 19 July 2019 07:57 > To: Benjamin Kaduk (kaduk@mit.edu); dots-chairs@ietf.org; = dots@ietf.org > Subject: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) >=20 > Hi Ben, chairs, all, >=20 > (restricting the discussion to the AD/chairs/WG) >=20 > * Status: >=20 > All DISCUSS points from Mirja's review were fixed, except the one = discussed in > this message. >=20 > * Pending Point: >=20 > Rather than going into much details, I consider the following as the = summary > of the remaining DISCUSS point from Mirja: >=20 > > I believe there are flaws in the design. First it=E2=80=99s a layer = violation, but > > if more an idealistic concern but usually designing in layers is a = good > > approach. But more importantly, you end up with un-frequent messages > which > > may still terminate the connection at some point, while what you = want is > > to simply send messages frequently in an unreliable fashion but a = low rate > > until the attack is over. >=20 > * Discussion: >=20 > (1) First of all, let's remind that RFC7252 does not define how CoAP = ping must > be used. It does only say: >=20 > =3D=3D > Provoking a Reset > message (e.g., by sending an Empty Confirmable message) is also > useful as an inexpensive check of the liveness of an endpoint > ("CoAP ping"). > =3D=3D >=20 > How the liveness is assessed is left to applications. So, there is ** = no layer > violation **. >=20 > (2) What we need isn't (text from Mirja): >=20 > > to simply send messages frequently in an unreliable fashion but a = low rate > > until the attack is over " >=20 > It is actually the other way around. The spec says: >=20 > "... This is particularly useful for DOTS > servers that might want to reduce heartbeat frequency or cease > heartbeat exchanges when an active DOTS client has not requested > mitigation." >=20 > What we want can be formalized as: > - Taking into account DDoS traffic conditions, a check to assess the = liveness of > the peer DOTS agent + maintain NAT/FW state on on-path devices. >=20 > An much more elaborated version is documented in SIG-004 of RFC 8612. >=20 > * My analysis: >=20 > - The intended functionality is naturally provided by existing CoAP = messages. > - Informed WG decision: The WG spent a lot of cycles when specifying = the > current behavior to be meet the requirements set in RFC8612. > - Why not an alternative design: We can always define messages with > duplicated functionality, but that is not a good design approach = especially > when there is no evident benefit. > - The specification is not broken: it was implemented and tested. >=20 > And a logistic comment: this issue fits IMHO under the non-discuss = criteria in > https://www.ietf.org/blog/discuss-criteria-iesg-review/#stand-undisc. >=20 > * What's Next? >=20 > As an editor, I don't think a change is needed but I'd like to hear = from Ben, > chairs, and the WG. >=20 > Please share your thoughts and whether you agree/disagree with the = above > analysis. >=20 > Cheers, > Med > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Fri Jul 19 04:42:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3D112017C; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 04:42:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.335 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.335 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=smyslov.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d5Lbxv9iUUQB; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 04:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from direct.host-care.com (direct.host-care.com [198.136.54.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67EF6120019; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 04:42:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=smyslov.net ; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID :Date:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=V336Rnbqz9WoamiqbGHrHIyfxhOLRIHsqSEvk6pSLD8=; b=1Srq0BPl2htFsLERWmeniRNFNI PZKUa0Fox4w5c6s+v+52f6oy7TJ/t5PND/C3QvbjJVfkh2mLe3UAcPANFnrBB7jT+V+7l8z2f6cE2 JAvQfgJjwCCex9uDXjWm871i2l/J0Lbw6Es4RjD+aTox1O6UHzvVZSVNURUSlK4sXjhqeKyo+QGZM T6cxfpm5rvOYud+ylh5olPZD/60J6J34xFtJtnJkPC8X7VyQhjpj5bGFmEeLz7g5Dkg4iCbTXQ9Am 9ohj3f0uUtNmVJLjq5Ze8uuYJFSkaLlctKBuwghMN9sIDXEK8PdRLK/U42ypNUK9CGi/SI7aGdEFW i6QeiZAg==; Received: from [89.248.140.13] (port=51384 helo=svannotebook) by direct.host-care.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hoRHp-0000Hg-43; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 07:42:53 -0400 From: "Valery Smyslov" To: , "'Benjamin Kaduk'" , , References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302FA841A9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302FA841A9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 14:42:50 +0300 Message-ID: <00c201d53e27$194cfc20$4be6f460$@smyslov.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQI3NMpmTxo3A+0PVQS1r9HIn/ZDyqYN3R5g Content-Language: ru X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - direct.host-care.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - smyslov.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: direct.host-care.com: authenticated_id: valery@smyslov.net X-Authenticated-Sender: direct.host-care.com: valery@smyslov.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:42:58 -0000 Hi Med, I believe Mirja's main point was that if you use liveness check = mechanism in the transport layer, then if it reports that liveness check fails, then it _also_ closes the = transport session. Quotes from her emails: "Yes, as Coap Ping is used, the agent should not only conclude that the = DOTS signal session is disconnected but also the Coap session and not = send any further Coap messages anymore." and "Actually to my understanding this will not work. Both TCP heartbeat and = Coap Ping are transmitted reliably. If you don=E2=80=99t receive an ack = for these transmissions you are not able to send any additional messages = and can only close the connection." I'm not familiar with CoAP, but I suspect she's right about TCP - if TCP = layer itself doesn't receive ACK for the sent data after several retransmissions, the connection is = closed. As far as I understand the current draft allows underlying liveness = check to fail and has a parameter to restart this check several times if this happens. It seems that a new = transport session will be=20 created in this case (at least if TCP is used). In my reading of the = draft this seems not been assumed, it is assumed that the session remains the same. So, I think that main = Mirja's concern is that it won't work (at least with TCP). I didn't participate in the WG discussion on this, so I don't know what = was discussed regarding this issue. If it was discussed and the WG has come to = conclusion that this is=20 not an issue, then I believe more text should be added to the draft so, = that people like Mirja, who didn't participate in the discussion, don't have any = concerns while reading the draft. Regards, Valery. > -----Original Message----- > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 9:57 AM > To: Benjamin Kaduk (kaduk@mit.edu) ; dots- > chairs@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org > Subject: Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) >=20 > Hi Ben, chairs, all, >=20 > (restricting the discussion to the AD/chairs/WG) >=20 > * Status: >=20 > All DISCUSS points from Mirja's review were fixed, except the one = discussed in > this message. >=20 > * Pending Point: >=20 > Rather than going into much details, I consider the following as the = summary > of the remaining DISCUSS point from Mirja: >=20 > > I believe there are flaws in the design. First it=E2=80=99s a layer = violation, > > but if more an idealistic concern but usually designing in layers is = a > > good approach. But more importantly, you end up with un-frequent > > messages which may still terminate the connection at some point, = while > > what you want is to simply send messages frequently in an unreliable > > fashion but a low rate until the attack is over. >=20 > * Discussion: >=20 > (1) First of all, let's remind that RFC7252 does not define how CoAP = ping must > be used. It does only say: >=20 > =3D=3D > Provoking a Reset > message (e.g., by sending an Empty Confirmable message) is also > useful as an inexpensive check of the liveness of an endpoint > ("CoAP ping"). > =3D=3D >=20 > How the liveness is assessed is left to applications. So, there is ** = no layer > violation **. >=20 > (2) What we need isn't (text from Mirja): >=20 > > to simply send messages frequently in an unreliable fashion but a = low > > rate until the attack is over " >=20 > It is actually the other way around. The spec says: >=20 > "... This is particularly useful for DOTS > servers that might want to reduce heartbeat frequency or cease > heartbeat exchanges when an active DOTS client has not requested > mitigation." >=20 > What we want can be formalized as: > - Taking into account DDoS traffic conditions, a check to assess the = liveness of > the peer DOTS agent + maintain NAT/FW state on on-path devices. >=20 > An much more elaborated version is documented in SIG-004 of RFC 8612. >=20 > * My analysis: >=20 > - The intended functionality is naturally provided by existing CoAP = messages. > - Informed WG decision: The WG spent a lot of cycles when specifying = the > current behavior to be meet the requirements set in RFC8612. > - Why not an alternative design: We can always define messages with > duplicated functionality, but that is not a good design approach = especially > when there is no evident benefit. > - The specification is not broken: it was implemented and tested. >=20 > And a logistic comment: this issue fits IMHO under the non-discuss = criteria in > https://www.ietf.org/blog/discuss-criteria-iesg-review/#stand-undisc. >=20 > * What's Next? >=20 > As an editor, I don't think a change is needed but I'd like to hear = from Ben, > chairs, and the WG. >=20 > Please share your thoughts and whether you agree/disagree with the = above > analysis. >=20 > Cheers, > Med From nobody Fri Jul 19 05:05:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33EE41200B3 for ; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 12:05:52 -0000 SGkgVmFsZXJ5LA0KDQpUaGUgbWVzc2FnZSB0cmFuc21pc3Npb24gcGFyYW1ldGVycyBpbmNsdWRp bmcgbWlzc2luZy1oYi1hbGxvd2VkIGlzIG9ubHkgZm9yIFVEUCB0cmFuc3BvcnQgKG5vdCBmb3Ig VENQKS4gRm9yIHRoZSBVRFAsIHNoZSBpcyBzdWdnZXN0aW5nIHVzIHRvIGdvIHdpdGggYSBtZWNo YW5pc20gdGhhdCBjaGVja3MgYm90aCBzaWRlIG9mIHRoZSBjb25uZWN0aXZpdHkgdXNpbmcgbm9u LWNvbmZpcm1hYmxlIG1lc3NhZ2Ugd2l0aCBwaW5nIGFuZCBwb25nIGF0IHRoZSBhcHBsaWNhdGlv biBsYXllciBpbnN0ZWFkIG9mIHJlbHlpbmcgb24gdGhlIENvQVAgcGluZy9wb25nLiANCg0KQ2hl ZXJzLA0KLVRpcnUNCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBEb3Rz IDxkb3RzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmc+IE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBWYWxlcnkgU215c2xvdg0KPiBT ZW50OiBGcmlkYXksIEp1bHkgMTksIDIwMTkgNToxMyBQTQ0KPiBUbzogbW9oYW1lZC5ib3VjYWRh aXJAb3JhbmdlLmNvbTsgJ0JlbmphbWluIEthZHVrJyA8a2FkdWtAbWl0LmVkdT47DQo+IGRvdHMt Y2hhaXJzQGlldGYub3JnOyBkb3RzQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbRG90c10gTWly 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mQWwJWTQXfMQQ/FQyJfpG/G1WVXcSBxWAnjjeg0+EUXOI6vlP+4ntwAz+QvYaVwrx6tsq+mtt0zWHDHKPwulu0mpLy5tbmnChONUh4Hc/xxiZJQz/dgIr15FyEe+NrCYEjcFkR5mx1vAye89PTpkF6h06R7Un09pGyjHFBB7k5a5hZalxFON8I/B/n4nEubpNg7mwB4g+3vMUpxIhIy7KZw/2tlbus6+zLF1VqmxXlozM87y17yYGWXfA+949AY8YRDKPq8cOJ5N85dK7ymDVdla2DjMUoIjMowWnev1M98EEBMPywmRy1QxVpXM2qWg//fqGgf5iqqp2JeyiNQ68HSotA+nKt6HB2eWp1CxNZbcPAFfvGVSKIi+kZ+7x9d9HfVYA764xj8z8mwSa9e7sSbfGKzxHtR3Zl+XOXrU3cA= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: df306485-ff0d-4e39-87af-08d70c4598da X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Jul 2019 12:35:35.1608 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4943e38c-6dd4-428c-886d-24932bc2d5de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR16MB1449 X-OriginatorOrg: mcafee.com X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: 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IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZG90cw0K From nobody Fri Jul 19 06:03:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EA5E12018B; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:02:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hxuRw9AMLgDt; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2808912012A; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr02.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.66]) by opfednr27.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45qrlM20lFz4wlf; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:02:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.35]) by opfednr02.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45qrlM1Qk8z8sY1; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:02:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM6C.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:02:55 +0200 From: To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "Benjamin Kaduk (kaduk@mit.edu)" , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) Thread-Index: AdU9/zWZTxo3A+0PVQS1r9HIn/ZDygALa6OgAACDRPA= Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 13:02:54 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302FA8552E@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302FA841A9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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Zy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2RvdHMNCg== From nobody Fri Jul 19 19:26:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40D031200E9; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 19:26:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=smyslov.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WTkDiX-PVB7u; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 19:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from direct.host-care.com (direct.host-care.com [198.136.54.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76FE6120130; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 19:25:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=smyslov.net ; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID :Date:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=GSsMb+cgbWdnA6A/SzfFGAczz3ITcbjmN/s2W87A/aY=; b=Pjfr6UEcKDCbqPIeZjOxcO8bJF t3yQ+RsyzoaOH0B+FFFP9o7foKG/L7dMQPslSwCBj/g4GePQ1DqJQKggxJDXpHpReaI/h0MWhmNa8 cYnDNzCX4Y351g88f9PmtJoRMoqyUNQaB0FSVxne5GwC1kyzDhyb5ImgAjzENpO/Dptk7Lyab+xRd KKHcgabGmgLPTDxvs7h6iDowRiYKXApW+wuFRlrEHE7nna97+qUcuFdTvNNGYjlb2KwH0ihtnpLoZ 4K74H4POlTBfy2MDTl9xw25rAKi8vj7vewRun7w0MBUJI5B92O+nbhzeknPd2W8hiqhSWkx5XUIYW 2AnYsRig==; Received: from modemcable142.183-83-70.mc.videotron.ca ([70.83.183.142]:51568 helo=svannotebook) by direct.host-care.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hof4N-0001Kq-9y; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 22:25:55 -0400 From: "Valery Smyslov" To: "'Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy'" , , "'Benjamin Kaduk'" , , References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302FA841A9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <00c201d53e27$194cfc20$4be6f460$@smyslov.net> In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 05:25:53 +0300 Message-ID: <011701d53ea2$74d81540$5e883fc0$@smyslov.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQI3NMpmTxo3A+0PVQS1r9HIn/ZDygFLQw4RAblfkIil9rStEA== Content-Language: ru X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - direct.host-care.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - smyslov.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: direct.host-care.com: authenticated_id: valery@smyslov.net X-Authenticated-Sender: direct.host-care.com: valery@smyslov.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 02:26:01 -0000 Hi Tiru, thank you for clarification regarding TCP. It seems the this = clarification somehow escaped from the discussion with Mirja (at least I cannot recall it was mentioned). Regards, Valery. > Hi Valery, >=20 > The message transmission parameters including missing-hb-allowed is = only for > UDP transport (not for TCP). For the UDP, she is suggesting us to go = with a > mechanism that checks both side of the connectivity using = non-confirmable > message with ping and pong at the application layer instead of relying = on the > CoAP ping/pong. >=20 > Cheers, > -Tiru >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dots On Behalf Of Valery Smyslov > > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 5:13 PM > > To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; 'Benjamin Kaduk' ; > > dots-chairs@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) > > > > > > > > Hi Med, > > > > I believe Mirja's main point was that if you use liveness check > > mechanism in the transport layer, then if it reports that liveness > > check fails, then it _also_ closes the transport session. > > > > Quotes from her emails: > > "Yes, as Coap Ping is used, the agent should not only conclude that > > the DOTS signal session is disconnected but also the Coap session = and > > not send any further Coap messages anymore." > > > > and > > > > "Actually to my understanding this will not work. Both TCP heartbeat > > and Coap Ping are transmitted reliably. If you don=E2=80=99t receive = an ack > > for these transmissions you are not able to send any additional > > messages and can only close the connection." > > > > I'm not familiar with CoAP, but I suspect she's right about TCP - if > > TCP layer itself doesn't receive ACK for the sent data after several > > retransmissions, the connection is closed. > > > > As far as I understand the current draft allows underlying liveness > > check to fail and has a parameter to restart this check several = times > > if this happens. It seems that a new transport session will be = created > > in this case (at least if TCP is used). In my reading of the draft > > this seems not been assumed, it is assumed that the session remains > > the same. So, I think that main Mirja's concern is that it won't = work (at least > with TCP). > > > > I didn't participate in the WG discussion on this, so I don't know > > what was discussed regarding this issue. If it was discussed and the > > WG has come to conclusion that this is not an issue, then I believe > > more text should be added to the draft so, that people like Mirja, = who > > didn't participate in the discussion, don't have any concerns while = reading > the draft. > > > > Regards, > > Valery. > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > > > > > > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 9:57 AM > > > To: Benjamin Kaduk (kaduk@mit.edu) ; dots- > > > chairs@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org > > > Subject: Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) > > > > > > Hi Ben, chairs, all, > > > > > > (restricting the discussion to the AD/chairs/WG) > > > > > > * Status: > > > > > > All DISCUSS points from Mirja's review were fixed, except the one > > > discussed in this message. > > > > > > * Pending Point: > > > > > > Rather than going into much details, I consider the following as = the > > > summary of the remaining DISCUSS point from Mirja: > > > > > > > I believe there are flaws in the design. First it=E2=80=99s a = layer > > > > violation, but if more an idealistic concern but usually = designing > > > > in layers is a good approach. But more importantly, you end up > > > > with un-frequent messages which may still terminate the = connection > > > > at some point, while what you want is to simply send messages > > > > frequently in an unreliable fashion but a low rate until the = attack is over. > > > > > > * Discussion: > > > > > > (1) First of all, let's remind that RFC7252 does not define how = CoAP > > > ping must be used. It does only say: > > > > > > =3D=3D > > > Provoking a Reset > > > message (e.g., by sending an Empty Confirmable message) is = also > > > useful as an inexpensive check of the liveness of an = endpoint > > > ("CoAP ping"). > > > =3D=3D > > > > > > How the liveness is assessed is left to applications. So, there is > > > ** no layer violation **. > > > > > > (2) What we need isn't (text from Mirja): > > > > > > > to simply send messages frequently in an unreliable fashion but = a > > > > low rate until the attack is over " > > > > > > It is actually the other way around. The spec says: > > > > > > "... This is particularly useful for DOTS > > > servers that might want to reduce heartbeat frequency or cease > > > heartbeat exchanges when an active DOTS client has not = requested > > > mitigation." > > > > > > What we want can be formalized as: > > > - Taking into account DDoS traffic conditions, a check to assess > > > the liveness of the peer DOTS agent + maintain NAT/FW state on > > > on-path > > devices. > > > > > > An much more elaborated version is documented in SIG-004 of RFC = 8612. > > > > > > * My analysis: > > > > > > - The intended functionality is naturally provided by existing = CoAP > > messages. > > > - Informed WG decision: The WG spent a lot of cycles when = specifying > > > the current behavior to be meet the requirements set in RFC8612. > > > - Why not an alternative design: We can always define messages = with > > > duplicated functionality, but that is not a good design approach > > > especially when there is no evident benefit. > > > - The specification is not broken: it was implemented and tested. > > > > > > And a logistic comment: this issue fits IMHO under the non-discuss > > > criteria in > > > https://www.ietf.org/blog/discuss-criteria-iesg-review/#stand- > > undisc. > > > > > > * What's Next? > > > > > > As an editor, I don't think a change is needed but I'd like to = hear > > > from Ben, chairs, and the WG. > > > > > > Please share your thoughts and whether you agree/disagree with the > > > above analysis. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Med > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Dots mailing list > > Dots@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Sat Jul 20 21:05:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37F831200D8; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 21:05:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9neO7z1iAZKa; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 21:05:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FF081200C4; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 21:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id x6L45LYe023428 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 21 Jul 2019 00:05:23 -0400 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 23:05:20 -0500 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Valery Smyslov Cc: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, dots-chairs@ietf.org, dots@ietf.org Message-ID: <20190721040520.GS23137@kduck.mit.edu> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302FA841A9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <00c201d53e27$194cfc20$4be6f460$@smyslov.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <00c201d53e27$194cfc20$4be6f460$@smyslov.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 04:05:29 -0000 Hi Valery, On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 02:42:50PM +0300, Valery Smyslov wrote: > Hi Med, > > I believe Mirja's main point was that if you use liveness check mechanism in the transport layer, > then if it reports that liveness check fails, then it _also_ closes the transport session. > > Quotes from her emails: > "Yes, as Coap Ping is used, the agent should not only conclude that the DOTS signal session is disconnected but also the Coap session and not send any further Coap messages anymore." > > and > > "Actually to my understanding this will not work. Both TCP heartbeat and Coap Ping are transmitted reliably. If you don’t receive an ack for these transmissions you are not able to send any additional messages and can only close the connection." > > I'm not familiar with CoAP, but I suspect she's right about TCP - if TCP layer itself doesn't receive ACK > for the sent data after several retransmissions, the connection is closed. Thanks for this crisp summary (and thanks Med for the detailed writeup as well)! > As far as I understand the current draft allows underlying liveness check to fail and has a parameter > to restart this check several times if this happens. It seems that a new transport session will be > created in this case (at least if TCP is used). In my reading of the draft this seems not been assumed, > it is assumed that the session remains the same. So, I think that main Mirja's concern is that it won't > work (at least with TCP). My sense is similar; if I could attempt to summarize Mirja's stance, it's that we're invoking a transport-level feature that does its own retransmit and backoff, but then if the transport comes back and says "the peer is gone", we say "but we're under attack, so I don't believe you; try again". This kicks of another independent set of "retransmits" (I know it's not technically the right word) with a fresh exponential backoff. There's two complaints about this: (1) we're changing the transport, since if the transport concludes the peer is gone then the transport "normally" tears down the connection (*) entirely, and (2) the assembly of (exponential backoff 1), (exponential backoff 2), (exponential backoff 2) is strange pacing, and might be better served by a similar number of "retransmits" but with different pacing, since the long delay at the end of each backoff period is not expected to add a huge amount of value in terms of letting congestion ease during attack time, and we would be just as well served by capping the delay between retransmits and having more retransmits. The asterisk on (1) is of course because, as is noted later in the thread, only TCP tears down the association when it concludes the peer is gone (assuming I'm reading the right parts of 7252). Quoting 7252: If the retransmission counter reaches MAX_RETRANSMIT on a timeout, or if the endpoint receives a Reset message, then the attempt to transmit the message is canceled and the application process informed of failure. On the other hand, if the endpoint receives an acknowledgement in time, transmission is considered successful. So all CoAP does is to tell the application "that request didn't work", but CoAP is happy to try additional requests on the connection; the teardown logic is indeed left up to the application. I'm not sure that we've seen much discussion about (2), though (sorry if I missed it) -- why is the repeated backoff-and-restart the right pacing for this purpose? -Ben > I didn't participate in the WG discussion on this, so I don't know what was discussed > regarding this issue. If it was discussed and the WG has come to conclusion that this is > not an issue, then I believe more text should be added to the draft so, that people > like Mirja, who didn't participate in the discussion, don't have any concerns while reading the draft. > > Regards, > Valery. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > > > > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 9:57 AM > > To: Benjamin Kaduk (kaduk@mit.edu) ; dots- > > chairs@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org > > Subject: Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) > > > > Hi Ben, chairs, all, > > > > (restricting the discussion to the AD/chairs/WG) > > > > * Status: > > > > All DISCUSS points from Mirja's review were fixed, except the one discussed in > > this message. > > > > * Pending Point: > > > > Rather than going into much details, I consider the following as the summary > > of the remaining DISCUSS point from Mirja: > > > > > I believe there are flaws in the design. First it’s a layer violation, > > > but if more an idealistic concern but usually designing in layers is a > > > good approach. But more importantly, you end up with un-frequent > > > messages which may still terminate the connection at some point, while > > > what you want is to simply send messages frequently in an unreliable > > > fashion but a low rate until the attack is over. > > > > * Discussion: > > > > (1) First of all, let's remind that RFC7252 does not define how CoAP ping must > > be used. It does only say: > > > > == > > Provoking a Reset > > message (e.g., by sending an Empty Confirmable message) is also > > useful as an inexpensive check of the liveness of an endpoint > > ("CoAP ping"). > > == > > > > How the liveness is assessed is left to applications. So, there is ** no layer > > violation **. > > > > (2) What we need isn't (text from Mirja): > > > > > to simply send messages frequently in an unreliable fashion but a low > > > rate until the attack is over " > > > > It is actually the other way around. The spec says: > > > > "... This is particularly useful for DOTS > > servers that might want to reduce heartbeat frequency or cease > > heartbeat exchanges when an active DOTS client has not requested > > mitigation." > > > > What we want can be formalized as: > > - Taking into account DDoS traffic conditions, a check to assess the liveness of > > the peer DOTS agent + maintain NAT/FW state on on-path devices. > > > > An much more elaborated version is documented in SIG-004 of RFC 8612. > > > > * My analysis: > > > > - The intended functionality is naturally provided by existing CoAP messages. > > - Informed WG decision: The WG spent a lot of cycles when specifying the > > current behavior to be meet the requirements set in RFC8612. > > - Why not an alternative design: We can always define messages with > > duplicated functionality, but that is not a good design approach especially > > when there is no evident benefit. > > - The specification is not broken: it was implemented and tested. > > > > And a logistic comment: this issue fits IMHO under the non-discuss criteria in > > https://www.ietf.org/blog/discuss-criteria-iesg-review/#stand-undisc. > > > > * What's Next? > > > > As an editor, I don't think a change is needed but I'd like to hear from Ben, > > chairs, and the WG. > > > > Please share your thoughts and whether you agree/disagree with the above > > analysis. > > > > Cheers, > > Med > From nobody Sat Jul 20 23:52:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A53C12008D for ; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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"draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.org" , "neshi-nwsec-p-ml@hco.ntt.co.jp" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01: X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 07:58:18 -0000 Hi all, We updated the draft based on comments. I replaced the previous draft. >Frank, William Thank you for reviewing my draft! > Med Thank you for revising my draft! A new version of I-D, draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Yuhei Hayashi and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload Revision: 00 Title: DDoS Mitigation Offload: DOTS Applicability and Deployment Considerations Document date: 2019-07-20 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 20 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hayashi-dots-dms-off= load/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-= 00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload Abstract: This document describes a deployment scenario to assess the applicability of DOTS protocols together with a discussion on DOTS deployment considerations of such scenario. This scenario assumes that a DMS (DDoS Mitigation System) whose utilization rate is high sends its blocked traffic information to an orchestrator using DOTS protocols, then the orchestrator requests forwarding nodes such as routers to filter the traffic. Doing so enables service providers to mitigate the DDoS attack traffic automatically while ensuring interoperability and distributed filter enforcement. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 2:41 Panwei (William) : > > Hi Med, > > > [Med] The text may not be clear. It should be fixed: the intent is to u= se the > > src-* attributes defined in the call-home, not the call-home functional= ity. > > This is also my confusion when I read the draft, it's good to be fixed. > > Regards & Thanks! > =E6=BD=98=E4=BC=9F Wei Pan > =E5=8D=8E=E4=B8=BA=E6=8A=80=E6=9C=AF=E6=9C=89=E9=99=90=E5=85=AC=E5=8F=B8 = Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > > mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > > Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 2:28 PM > > To: Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept) > > ; H Y > > Cc: draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.org; Valery > > Smyslov ; dots@ietf.org; neshi-nwsec-p- > > ml@hco.ntt.co.jp > > Subject: Re: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-dots-dms- > > offload-usecase-01: > > > > Re-, > > > > Please see inline. > > > > Cheers, > > Med > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > De : Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept) > > > [mailto:frank.xialiang@huawei.com] > > > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 12 juillet 2019 08:20 =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Moham= ed > > TGI/OLN; > > > H Y Cc : draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.org; > > > Valery Smyslov; dots@ietf.org; neshi-nwsec-p-ml@hco.ntt.co.jp Objet : > > > =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-= dots-dms- > > > offload-usecase-01: > > > > > > Hi Med, > > > I understand your intention more now. > > > As the chairs, we prefer to hear more to help us consider how to deal > > > with this draft. > > > > > > See inline: > > > > > > Thank you! > > > > > > B.R. > > > Frank > > > > > > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > > > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > > > [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] > > > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97= =A5 13:38 > > > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: H Y ; Xialiang= (Frank, Network > > Standard > > > & Patent Dept) > > > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ie= tf.org; Valery > > > Smyslov ; dots@ietf.org; neshi-nwsec-p- > > > ml@hco.ntt.co.jp > > > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: RE: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-haya= shi-dots-dms- > > > offload-usecase-01: > > > > > > Franck, > > > > > > An important contribution from this draft is to assess to what extent > > > current DOTS specs can be applied in a particular deployment context > > > and there is no void, while the use case draft was done to drive the > > > specification. > > > > > > There is IMO a need for an effort to socialize DOTS and exemplify how > > > it can be used in various deployment contexts. This draft is a > > > contribution in that aim. > > > > > > BTW, I'm not sure to understand this comment: > > > > > > > And be careful using signal channel call home for your use case, > > > > since > > > it is a special mechanism for near source attack mitigation with DOTS > > > server create TLS connection with DOTS client, which I don=E2=80=99t = think > > > it=E2=80=99s very suitable for your case. > > > > > > The intent is to use the src-* signal channel extensions. I don't see > > > any issue in doing that. > > > > > > [Frank]: I mean DOTS signal channel is ok for this use case, no need > > > to use call home signal channel. And the call home signal channel's > > > interaction way is not appropriate for this case too. > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Med > > > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > > De : H Y [mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com] Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 1= 2 > > > > juillet 2019 07:00 =C3=80 : Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Pat= ent > > > > Dept) Cc : draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.org; > > > > Valery Smyslov; dots@ietf.org; neshi-nwsec-p-ml@hco.ntt.co.jp Objet= : > > > > Re: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-dots-dms- > > > > offload-usecase-01: > > > > > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > > > > > Thank you for reviewing my draft :-) Please see inline. > > > > > > > > > 1. I see your proposed offload use case as an variant of DOTS > > > > Orchestration use case (section 3.3 of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18= ). > > > > [hayashi]Yes, that's right. > > > > > > > > > If so, what is your propose for this part of content? Do you want > > > > > to > > > > improve the existing DOTS use cases WG draft with your addition? > > > > [hayashi]Yes, I want to add our use case to improve the DOTS > > > > orchestration use cases. > > > > About the DOTS orchestration use case in current use cases WG draft= , > > > > DMS doesn't have DOTS client function. > > > > IMO, it's effective that DMSs send blocked information to an > > > > orchestrator via standardized IF and the orchestrator carries out > > > > some action in the network. > > > > > > > > At IETF 104, I proposed to add our use case to improve the DOTS > > > > orchestration use cases, however, I could not do it because the use > > > > case WG draft now is in Publication Requested status. > > > > Some people gave me the advice to include DOTS deployment > > > > consideration to my draft, so I update my draft based on the > > comments. > > > > > > > > Please see IETF104 minute > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-104- > > > > dots/ > > > > > > > > > 2. Right now, DOTS protocol defines sending DOTS request via > > > signal > > > > channel, do you propose to send it via data channel in some situati= on? > > > > If so, I personally disagree with it, since we originally define > > > > signal channel and data channel for different functionalities & > > > > messages, we can not send any DOTS messages over wrong channel, > > like: > > > > DOTS request via data channel. > > > > [hayashi] After I submitted > > > > draft-h-dots-mitigation-offload-expansion-00, some people gave me > > > > comments not to use signal channel but to use data channel via > > > > out-of band because link b/w the DMS and Orchestrator won't be > > > > congested under attack time. > > > > > > > > Please see the mail thread [Dots] > > > > draft-h-dots-mitigation-offload-expansion-00: Reasons why we want > > to > > > > standardize between DMS and orchestrator using DOTS > > > > > > > > Current data channel has the capability to send filtering rules > > > > immediately, so I think it can be used to send blocked information > > > > from DMS to Orchestrator. > > > > If the signal channel has the capability to convey the attacker's > > > > information, the signal channel can be also used to send it to form > > > > DMS to Orchestrator. > > > > > > > > > 3. In addition to extended offload use case content, I do no= t see > > > > any new protocol, message or attribute extension comparing to the > > > > existing defined DOTS protocols, the left content are just some > > > > examples about how you use the existing DOTS protocol for your > > > > offload use case. So, what do you want DOTS WG to do for this draft= , > > > > since there > > > are no new thing here? > > > > [hayashi] This draft requires that ... > > > > - It's effective that DMS have DOTS client function in DOTS > > > > orchestration use case. > > > > - It's effective that signal channel has the capability to send src > > > > information. > > > > For example, it's useful and feasible to send src port information > > > > via the DOTS signal channel to request mitigation against reflectio= n > > > > attack. > > > > > > > > > And be careful using signal channel call home for your use case, > > > > > since > > > > it is a special mechanism for near source attack mitigation with > > > > DOTS server create TLS connection with DOTS client, which I don=E2= =80=99t > > > > think it=E2=80=99s very suitable for your case. > > > > Thank you for giving me comments. Could I define another signal > > > > channel expansion to send src information via signal channel? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Yuhei > > > > > > > > 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 12:10 Xialiang (Frank= , Network Standard & > > Patent Dept) > > > > : > > > > > > > > > > Hi authors, > > > > > > > > > > I have reviewed this new version and have 3 questions as below: > > > > > > > > > > 1. I see your proposed offload use case as an variant of DOT= S > > > > Orchestration use case (section 3.3 of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18= ). > > > > If so, what is your propose for this part of content? Do you want t= o > > > > improve the existing DOTS use cases WG draft with your addition? > > > > > > > > > > 2. Right now, DOTS protocol defines sending DOTS request via > > > signal > > > > channel, do you propose to send it via data channel in some situati= on? > > > > If so, I personally disagree with it, since we originally define > > > > signal channel and data channel for different functionalities & > > > > messages, we can not send any DOTS messages over wrong channel, > > like: > > > > DOTS request via data channel. > > > > > > > > > > 3. In addition to extended offload use case content, I do no= t see > > > > any new protocol, message or attribute extension comparing to the > > > > existing defined DOTS protocols, the left content are just some > > > > examples about how you use the existing DOTS protocol for your > > > > offload use case. So, what do you want DOTS WG to do for this draft= , > > > > since there > > > are no new thing here? > > > > And be careful using signal channel call home for your use case, > > > > since it is a special mechanism for near source attack mitigation > > > > with DOTS server create TLS connection with DOTS client, which I > > > > don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s very suitable for your case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > B.R. > > > > > > > > > > Frank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Dots mailing list > > > > > Dots@ietf.org > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > ---------------------------------- > > > > Yuuhei HAYASHI > > > > 08065300884 > > > > yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com > > > > iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp > > > > ---------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > > Dots mailing list > > Dots@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots --=20 ---------------------------------- Yuuhei HAYASHI 08065300884 yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp ---------------------------------- From nobody Sun Jul 21 22:13:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietf.org Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B23B12017C; Sun, 21 Jul 2019 22:13:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: dots@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.99.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dots@ietf.org Message-ID: <156377239626.8788.16438451345258962395@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 22:13:16 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-31.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:13:16 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IETF. Title : Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Data Channel Specification Authors : Mohamed Boucadair Tirumaleswar Reddy Filename : draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-31.txt Pages : 75 Date : 2019-07-21 Abstract: The document specifies a Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) data channel used for bulk exchange of data that cannot easily or appropriately communicated through the DOTS signal channel under attack conditions. This is a companion document to the DOTS signal channel specification. Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor) Please update these statements within the document with the RFC number to be assigned to this document: o "This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX;" o "RFC XXXX: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Data Channel Specification"; o reference: RFC XXXX Please update the "revision" date of the YANG module. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-data-channel/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-31 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-31 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-31 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 22 00:08:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76BA0120105; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 00:08:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xdwD1RVwnuC6; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 00:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B83F4120104; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 00:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar07.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.9]) by opfedar26.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45sXkr5Qr0zFpmY; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 09:08:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.64]) by opfedar07.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45sXkr4BN4z5vP4; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 09:08:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 09:08:20 +0200 From: To: Valery Smyslov , "'Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy'" , 'Benjamin Kaduk' , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) Thread-Index: AQI3NMpmw7DhsbF6RNCA2PYrEJMCCAFLQw4RAblfkIil9rStEIADcglQ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:08:19 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E32E9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302FA841A9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <00c201d53e27$194cfc20$4be6f460$@smyslov.net> <011701d53ea2$74d81540$5e883fc0$@smyslov.net> In-Reply-To: <011701d53ea2$74d81540$5e883fc0$@smyslov.net> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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6SlFTwX4q1v2HHji1xkTGlKnZxUWEKMrVOa/1jgrNtJkh8f0eBia9kF3Y5QxsvKLhQODs175BKByjZXUxHjPHxqSVaL4H8te8qS23yYT+PkytzPQFWpOkZ0T0unb9KmHwidma5Qyj6P3EAHFNeZGM2CpKCc/UE4ZFf5oNQstHrkfAoAS3IA9jd5wORZ/KTxTah+rwsz/WX6sZ2vlXU/0uFgV0ZPkBzx3ebBJToeXBJ1UryfIhsrQguN130BGyg8aFhBZvDGUd0VnyOERc2WdDvDoC2eJbv/RAL8wQ8kxBoVOuDF49OlqRW4bNlTtk8S+YPDh5Hpsdt49/ZEpNavwVzfg9DPgy0gj34DKcArMSyFC0i1E+mLws8j3rW7/Blx+mIIgOg+w9uG9J4pt0cNhP5Q3cbV4bJtPX46cydZY1X8= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f65af22a-1ad0-4643-ecf6-08d70e82a488 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 Jul 2019 08:57:36.3767 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4943e38c-6dd4-428c-886d-24932bc2d5de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR16MB1529 X-OriginatorOrg: mcafee.com X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 15 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X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6KyVds1euEiW; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 02:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B57A512002E; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 02:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr02.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.66]) by opfednr22.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45scDQ2fpVzyvv; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 11:45:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.64]) by opfednr02.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45scDQ1MDhz8sYg; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 11:45:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 11:45:41 +0200 From: To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "Valery Smyslov" , 'Benjamin Kaduk' , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) Thread-Index: AdU9/zWZw7DhsbF6RNCA2PYrEJMCCAAJ+IgAAABxlPAAHmWBgABucluAAAF8LhAAA+q90A== Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 09:45:41 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3433@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302FA841A9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <00c201d53e27$194cfc20$4be6f460$@smyslov.net> <011701d53ea2$74d81540$5e883fc0$@smyslov.net> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E32E9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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X-OriginatorOrg: mcafee.com X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 15 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9418 : core <6594> : inlines <7122> : streams <1828083> : uri <2870748> X-MC-Unique: mWN3tdBXNm60DZzywbhNbA-1 X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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PiA+ID4gPiA+ID4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9kb3RzDQo+ IA0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBE b3RzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBEb3RzQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3Jn L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZG90cw0K From nobody Mon Jul 22 04:01:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CD94120130; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 04:01:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oH7RULwbpz-L; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 04:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1F5A120058; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 04:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar04.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.6]) by opfedar27.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45sdw02Vx0z2xNG; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 13:01:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.20]) by opfedar04.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45sdw01CH9z1xpK; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 13:01:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBMA1.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 13:01:35 +0200 From: To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "Valery Smyslov" , 'Benjamin Kaduk' , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) Thread-Index: AdU9/zWZw7DhsbF6RNCA2PYrEJMCCAAJ+IgAAABxlPAAHmWBgABucluAAAF8LhAAA+q90AABWUtgAAFZ9uA= Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 11:01:35 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E34A0@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302FA841A9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <00c201d53e27$194cfc20$4be6f460$@smyslov.net> <011701d53ea2$74d81540$5e883fc0$@smyslov.net> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E32E9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3433@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 11:01:41 -0000 UmUtLA0KDQpQbGVhc2Ugc2VlIGlubGluZS4NCg0KQ2hlZXJzLA0KTWVkDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1NZXNz YWdlIGQnb3JpZ2luZS0tLS0tDQo+IERlwqA6IEtvbmRhLCBUaXJ1bWFsZXN3YXIgUmVkZHkgW21h aWx0bzpUaXJ1bWFsZXN3YXJSZWRkeV9Lb25kYUBNY0FmZWUuY29tXQ0KPiBFbnZvecOpwqA6IGx1 bmRpIDIyIGp1aWxsZXQgMjAxOSAxMjoyNQ0KPiDDgMKgOiBCT1VDQURBSVIgTW9oYW1lZCBUR0kv T0xOOyBWYWxlcnkgU215c2xvdjsgJ0JlbmphbWluIEthZHVrJzsgZG90cy0NCj4gY2hhaXJzQGll dGYub3JnOyBkb3RzQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IE9iamV0wqA6IFJFOiBbRG90c10gTWlyamEncyBESVND VVNTOiBQZW5kaW5nIFBvaW50IChBRCBIZWxwIE5lZWRlZCkNCj4gDQo+ID4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5h bCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gPiBGcm9tOiBEb3RzIDxkb3RzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmc+IE9u IEJlaGFsZiBPZg0KPiA+IG1vaGFtZWQuYm91Y2FkYWlyQG9yYW5nZS5jb20NCj4gPiBTZW50OiBN b25kYXksIEp1bHkgMjIsIDIwMTkgMzoxNiBQTQ0KPiA+IFRvOiBLb25kYSwgVGlydW1hbGVzd2Fy IFJlZGR5DQo+ID4gPFRpcnVtYWxlc3dhclJlZGR5X0tvbmRhQE1jQWZlZS5jb20+OyBWYWxlcnkg 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dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6D0B120118; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:10:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind_via_Datatracker?= To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-dots-data-channel@ietf.org, Roman Danyliw , dots-chairs@ietf.org, rdd@cert.org, dots@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.99.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= Message-ID: <156379744280.27975.8251473702455688162.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:10:42 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-?= =?utf-8?q?ietf-dots-data-channel-31=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 12:10:43 -0000 Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-31: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-data-channel/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for addressing my discuss! From nobody Mon Jul 22 05:37:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D5DF120295 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:37:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nttv6.jp Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X9SU9rdkhjIc for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from guri.nttv6.jp (guri.nttv6.jp [115.69.228.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A51C9120291 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z.nttv6.jp (z.nttv6.jp [192.168.8.15]) by guri.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 2E39825F6BD; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 21:36:54 +0900 (JST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nttv6.jp; s=20180820; t=1563799014; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=SjCIR1l/SipGhEdEJ3PakLBgE8S+Vc6uoPJtwNUiFdo=; b=h6kz3w+ZTnmqud17lIYY8v60Mts8w9N7Dv+MxDuxS1937HAdFosD+GKkDEeuRI15VH3Nf+ m7BxefSwhZV0h6uT1rj2PbP3e2TqEu1uZPFK7ZRJu5jKXzUiesKW/jXHu99ZV/JHTL2Vda 41k7maTTxCFopC4IoOBb2ONFXHnwSaY= Received: from MacBook-Pro-17.local (fujiko.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:136::141]) by z.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 22A6C75907D; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 21:36:51 +0900 (JST) To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com Cc: "dots@ietf.org" References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA649B4@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA67156@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <03f901d4fe6f$98f00a00$cad01e00$@jpshallow.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA6725D@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA6736E@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAE4D52@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: kaname nishizuka Message-ID: <5462fbf7-5cc8-d533-4e97-cd7595ee094b@nttv6.jp> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 21:36:47 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAE4D52@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] (draft-ietf-dots-signal-filter-control) ACL Stats issue X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 12:37:05 -0000 Hi Med, I've read the telemetry I-D and will make a support comment later. Then, there was no concern about any duplicated spec with the signal-filter-control I-D. The signal-filter-control I-D can be ready for WGLC as it is. Thank you for taking care of it. regards, Kaname On 2019/07/16 17:05, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > Hi Kaname, > >> I'd like to check the new DOTS telemetry specification I-D and see if a >> reference from the signal-filter-control is needed. > Now that the telemetry I-D is available (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00), please let us know whether you have comments. Thanks. > > Cheers, > Med > >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : kaname nishizuka [mailto:kaname@nttv6.jp] >> Envoyé : mardi 30 avril 2019 16:24 >> À : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; Jon Shallow; >> dots@ietf.org >> Objet : Re: [Dots] (draft-ietf-dots-signal-filter-control) ACL Stats issue >> >> Hi, >> >> > Looks like a candidate item in a separate DOTS telemetry specification >> I-D, >> rather than restricting it to the filter control case. >> I agree with this. >> At the usecase(2) that Tiru raised, per ACL traffic counter would be >> useful but it's not limited to the ACLs activated by signal-filter- >> control. >> "activate-when-mitigating" ACL related information is one of the example. >> It can be decoupled with the resources created by a signal-filter-control. >> >> I'm in favor of this Jon's comment because it clarifies the original >> behavior of a signal-filter-control. >> > The DOTS server will have a limited (only because they have to be >> previously defined) set of (possibly inactivated) ACLS on the server.  If >> the "standard" white/black list are unable to bring the inbound pipe back >> to not being flooded, then a (likely global for the DOTS client's >> networks) Rate-Limit ACL must be brought in.  Once the Inbound pipe is >> available, then analysis of the data reaching the DOTs client will show >> the top users which then need their own limiting (black or rate-limit) ACL >> set up over the data channel.  At this point the Rate-Limit ACL can >> removed to see if things are stable again. >> I'd like to check the new DOTS telemetry specification I-D and see if a >> reference from the signal-filter-control is needed. >> >> regards, >> Kaname >> >> >> On 2019/04/29 21:58, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote: >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 6:27 PM >>>> To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >>>> ; Jon Shallow >>> ietf@jpshallow.com>; kaname nishizuka ; dots@ietf.org >>>> Subject: RE: [Dots] (draft-ietf-dots-signal-filter-control) ACL Stats >> issue >>>> This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click >> links or >>>> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content >> is >>>> safe. >>>> >>>> Tiru, >>>> >>>> Looks like a candidate item in a separate DOTS telemetry specification >> I-D, >>>> rather than restricting it to the filter control case. >>>> >>>> Hope this is OK with you. >>> Yes, works for me. >>> >>> -Tiru >>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Med >>>> >>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>> De : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >>>>> [mailto:TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com] >>>>> Envoyé : lundi 29 avril 2019 14:47 >>>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; Jon Shallow; kaname nishizuka; >>>>> dots@ietf.org Objet : RE: [Dots] >>>>> (draft-ietf-dots-signal-filter-control) ACL Stats issue >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 5:05 PM >>>>>> To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >>>>>> ; Jon Shallow >>>>> ietf@jpshallow.com>; kaname nishizuka ; >>>>>> dots@ietf.org >>>>>> Subject: RE: [Dots] (draft-ietf-dots-signal-filter-control) ACL >>>>>> Stats issue >>>>>> >>>>>> This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click >>>>>> links >>>>> or >>>>>> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the >>>>>> content is safe. >>>>>> >>>>>> Tiru, >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree that we are approaching the problem with two different use >> cases: >>>>>> (1) a client domain with is basically "consuming" services. I do >>>>>> still >>>>> think this >>>>>> use case does not need to learn about the ACL stats. >>>>> Yes. >>>>> >>>>>> (2) your case in which the client domain is "providing" services: I >>>>>> still >>>>> think >>>>>> that the impact on business can be determined also using local >>>>>> information (known patterns + rate-limit policy applied by the >>>>>> client). If the goal is >>>>> to >>>>>> decide whether/when an alternate mitigator is to be solicited, this >>>>>> can deterministically rely upon "status" set to 4 (Attack has >>>>>> exceeded the mitigation provider capacity) or deactivate back the >>>>>> rate-limit ACL + local observation. Please remember that local >>>>>> observation is needed for efficacy update. >>>>> "Attack has exceeded" status message does not convey the details the >>>>> traffic rate-limited, and the client needs to understand the attack >>>>> scale to figure out suitable alternate mitigation provider. It is a >>>>> critical DOTS telemetry that needs to be conveyed in the signal >>>>> channel and cannot be propagated in the data channel during an massive >>>> attack. >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> -Tiru >>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Med >>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>> De : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >>>>>>> [mailto:TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com] >>>>>>> Envoyé : lundi 29 avril 2019 12:18 À : Jon Shallow; BOUCADAIR >>>>>>> Mohamed TGI/OLN; kaname nishizuka; dots@ietf.org Objet : RE: >>>>>>> [Dots] >>>>>>> (draft-ietf-dots-signal-filter-control) ACL Stats issue >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Jon Shallow >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 3:11 PM >>>>>>>> To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >>>>>>>> ; >>>>>>>> mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; kaname nishizuka >>>>>> ; >>>>>>>> dots@ietf.org >>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [Dots] (draft-ietf-dots-signal-filter-control) ACL >>>>>>>> Stats issue >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not >>>>>>>> click links >>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the >>>>>>>> content is safe. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> See inline, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jon >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Dots [mailto: dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Konda, >>>>>>>>> Tirumaleswar Reddy >>>>>>>>> Sent: 29 April 2019 10:22 >>>>>>>>> To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; Jon Shallow; 'kaname >>>>>>>>> nishizuka'; dots@ietf.org >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dots] (draft-ietf-dots-signal-filter-control) >>>>>>>>> ACL Stats issue >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 2:46 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >>>>>>>>> ; >>>>>>>>>> Jon Shallow ; 'kaname nishizuka' >>>>>>>>>> ; dots@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [Dots] (draft-ietf-dots-signal-filter-control) >>>>>>>>>> ACL Stats issue >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This email originated from outside of the organization. Do >>>>>>>>>> not click links or >>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>> attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the >>>>>>>>>> content is >>>>>>>> safe. >>>>>>>>>> (Focusing on this particular point). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- De : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com] >>>>>>>>>>> Envoyé : lundi 29 avril 2019 10:52 À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed >>>>>>>>>>> TGI/OLN; Jon Shallow; 'kaname nishizuka'; dots@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>> Objet >>>>>>>>>>> : RE: [Dots] >>>>>>>>>>> (draft-ietf-dots-signal-filter-control) ACL Stats issue >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ACL-specific stats and mitigation stats will give a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> clear >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> picture of the traffic rate-limited, bad traffic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dropped by the DDoS mitigation system, and using >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these stats the DOTS client can heuristically >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determine the amount of legitimate traffic dropped >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because of rate-limit and the impact of the attack >>>>>>>>> on its >>>>>>>>>> service. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [Med] The impact can be observed locally (e.g., bad >>>>>>>>>>>>>> QoS, inability to >>>>>>>>>>>>> access a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> service, instable connectivity, etc.). I still don’t >>>>>>>>>>>>>> see how sharing the >>>>>>>>>>>>> ACL stats >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will be helpful here. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A DOTS client can preinstall the same rate-limit >>>>>>>>>>>>>> filter with but with >>>>>>>>>>>>> different >>>>>>>>>>>>>> policies. It can select the appropriate ACL to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> activate/deactivate based on local experience. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't get how the local experience will help the >>>>>>>>>>>>> client pick an alternate mitigation provider who can >>>>>>>>>>>>> handle the >>>>> attack >>>>>> scale. >>>>>>>>>>>> [Med] Modern CPEs include automated features to assess >>>>>>>>>>>> the availability of services such as VoIP, IPTV, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>> The DOTS client can be fed with input >>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>> these modules and react accordingly. >>>>>>>>>> [Med] s/client/server. >>>>>>>> Is this correct? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I meant the target network cannot infer the amount of >>>>>>>>>>> legitimate traffic (or infer the number of users) unable >>>>>>>>>>> to use its service because of the rate- limit action. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> [Med] The amount of traffic is not required to assess the >>>>>>>>>> availability of "nominal" services (the example above). What >>>>>>>>>> is really important is >>>>>>>>> whether >>>>>>>>>> some critical services are available. That information can >>>>>>>>>> be determined >>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>> needing the ACL stats. >>>>>>>>> I am not referring to "nominal" services or critical resources. >>>>>>>>> For instance, consider Netflix is not accessible to a large >>>>>>>>> number of users because of the rate-limit action. >>>>>>>> The DOTS server will have a limited (only because they have to >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>> previously >>>>>>>> defined) set of (possibly inactivated) ACLS on the server. If >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> "standard" >>>>>>>> white/black list are unable to bring the inbound pipe back to >>>>>>>> not being flooded, then a (likely global for the DOTS client's >>>>>>>> networks) Rate-Limit >>>>>>> ACL >>>>>>>> must be brought in. Once the Inbound pipe is available, then >>>>>>>> analysis of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> data reaching the DOTs client will show the top users which then >>>>>>>> need their own limiting (black or rate-limit) ACL set up over >>>>>>>> the data channel. At >>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> point the Rate-Limit ACL can removed to see if things are stable >> again. >>>>>>>> [I agree that the CPE may not have this top usage capability] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If Netflix (or similar) has a priority when under attack, then >>>>>>>> this needs >>>>>>> to be >>>>>>>> added into a White ACL which can be done once the inbound pipe >>>>>>>> is not flooded (or be a part of the standard white lists) >>>>>>> I think we are discussing two different use cases. My attack use >>>>>>> case is Netflix content provider is under volumetric DDoS attack, >>>>>>> and if the rate- limit ACL is configured using the DOTS signal >>>>>>> channel because the DDoS mitigation provider cannot handle all the >>>>>>> attack traffic. The rate-limit ACL stats will help Netflix >>>>>>> understand the scale of the attack, impact on the current business >>>>>>> because of the rate-limit action (e.g. based on the amount of >>>>>>> traffic dropped by DMS, infer the amount of good traffic dropped >>>>>>> by the rate-limit ACL action, and infer the number of users who >>>>>>> cannot access its service), and if the attack lasts for several >>>>>>> days/weeks help identify an alternate mitigation provider capable >>>>>>> of handling the attack (e.g. Krebs was initially using Akamai and >>>>>>> eventually got protected by Google to handle >>>>> the >>>>>> massive attack). >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> -Tiru >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ~jon >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -Tiru >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Dots mailing list >>>>>>>>> Dots@ietf.org >>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Mon Jul 22 05:41:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56D86120043 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:41:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0DJuez2M5n0r for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DA0812001A for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr04.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.68]) by opfednr21.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45sh6k5jrMz5vtV; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:41:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.70]) by opfednr04.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45sh6k57TKz1xpQ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:41:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM33.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:41:02 +0200 From: To: kaname nishizuka CC: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] (draft-ietf-dots-signal-filter-control) ACL Stats issue Thread-Index: AQHVQIonWL4cYGeIJEOcPb6A2XkFpKbWlAkA Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 12:41:01 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E35CB@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA649B4@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA67156@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <03f901d4fe6f$98f00a00$cad01e00$@jpshallow.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA6725D@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA6736E@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAE4D52@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5462fbf7-5cc8-d533-4e97-cd7595ee094b@nttv6.jp> In-Reply-To: <5462fbf7-5cc8-d533-4e97-cd7595ee094b@nttv6.jp> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] (draft-ietf-dots-signal-filter-control) ACL Stats issue X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 12:41:07 -0000 SGkgS2FuYW1lLCANCg0KVGhhbmsgeW91IGZvciBkb3VibGUgY2hlY2tpbmcuDQoNClRoaXMgY29u ZmlybXMgdGhlIGluaXRpYWwgYXNzZXNzbWVudCBvbiB0aGUgc3RhYmlsaXR5IG9mIGZpbHRlci1j b250cm9sIEktRC4gDQoNCkNoZWVycywNCk1lZA0KDQo+IC0tLS0tTWVzc2FnZSBkJ29yaWdpbmUt LS0tLQ0KPiBEZcKgOiBrYW5hbWUgbmlzaGl6dWthIFttYWlsdG86a2FuYW1lQG50dHY2LmpwXQ0K PiBFbnZvecOpwqA6IGx1bmRpIDIyIGp1aWxsZXQgMjAxOSAxNDozNw0KPiDDgMKgOiBCT1VDQURB SVIgTW9oYW1lZCBUR0kvT0xODQo+IENjwqA6IGRvdHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gT2JqZXTCoDogUmU6 IFtEb3RzXSAoZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1kb3RzLXNpZ25hbC1maWx0ZXItY29udHJvbCkgQUNMIFN0YXRz IGlzc3VlDQo+IA0KPiBIaSBNZWQsDQo+IA0KPiBJJ3ZlIHJlYWQgdGhlIHRlbGVtZXRyeSBJLUQg YW5kIHdpbGwgbWFrZSBhIHN1cHBvcnQgY29tbWVudCBsYXRlci4NCj4gVGhlbiwgdGhlcmUgd2Fz IG5vIGNvbmNlcm4gYWJvdXQgYW55IGR1cGxpY2F0ZWQgc3BlYyB3aXRoIHRoZSBzaWduYWwtDQo+ IGZpbHRlci1jb250cm9sIEktRC4NCj4gDQo+IFRoZSBzaWduYWwtZmlsdGVyLWNvbnRyb2wgSS1E 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Pj4+Pj4gQ2hlZXJzLA0KPiA+Pj4+Pj4+IC1UaXJ1DQo+ID4+Pj4+Pj4NCj4gPj4+Pj4+Pj4gfmpv bg0KPiA+Pj4+Pj4+Pg0KPiA+Pj4+Pj4+Pj4gLVRpcnUNCj4gPj4+Pj4+Pj4+DQo+ID4+Pj4+Pj4+ PiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiA+Pj4+ Pj4+Pj4gRG90cyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gPj4+Pj4+Pj4+IERvdHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gPj4+ Pj4+Pj4+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZG90cw0KDQo= From nobody Mon Jul 22 06:10:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietf.org Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B6C81202EB; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 06:10:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: dots@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.99.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dots@ietf.org Message-ID: <156380103635.28071.4483838214442094448@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 06:10:36 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-multihoming-02.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 13:10:42 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IETF. Title : Multi-homing Deployment Considerations for Distributed-Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Authors : Mohamed Boucadair Tirumaleswar Reddy Wei Pan Filename : draft-ietf-dots-multihoming-02.txt Pages : 15 Date : 2019-07-22 Abstract: This document discusses multi-homing considerations for Distributed- Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS). The goal is to provide some guidance for DOTS clients/gateways when multihomed. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-multihoming/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-multihoming-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-multihoming-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-multihoming-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 22 06:14:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6647412027A for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 06:14:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nttv6.jp Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id euL0JUa9bTtU for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 06:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from guri.nttv6.jp (guri.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:136::140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04382120059 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 06:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z.nttv6.jp (z.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:6::f]) by guri.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 0027C25F6B8; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:13:59 +0900 (JST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nttv6.jp; s=20180820; t=1563801240; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=pgfgmcVkUm0mQ98yeZ6D/KccHRDjOz3IS9w06YMn03g=; b=ZS/y54vokvSJgYxK6RGPhkkIsCPxXx1QZsr//WMTMEIwxudb32ba40OSzAmAo+e6e+tjvk HTRB2UdZGQjXWai8fwNAyxa3/H9VqGGGosoEkjW6jEgaTsguu9yRUNgtBuAIuFQDnrg7Yy eb6oLxNgXknou5bDUgye7Xps0eGBTiY= Received: from MacBook-Pro-17.local (fujiko.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:136::141]) by z.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 5E559759075; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:13:59 +0900 (JST) To: tirumal reddy , dots@ietf.org References: <156233245922.21720.2303446065970922340.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: kaname nishizuka Message-ID: <9401a258-5a32-b612-450b-10d3452777ac@nttv6.jp> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:13:58 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9415E37DDB83A6A0EC8CEAE6" Content-Language: en-US Authentication-Results: guri.nttv6.jp; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=kaname@nttv6.jp Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 13:14:03 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9415E37DDB83A6A0EC8CEAE6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I support this draft. I'd like to mention about the telemetry attributes from a DOTS server to a DOTS client. Currently, several transit ISPs are providing DDoS detection and protection services. In such a service, they send a DDoS detection notification via e-mail when they noticed that their customer is under attack. The mail includes the telemetry information such as 4.1.5. Attack Details. This info can be used for further decision of protection strategy by the customer's security operators. I think it should be covered by the DOTS telemetry specification. One suggestion to the draft: Pre-mitigation DOTS Telemetry Attributes can also be signaled from the DOTS server to the DOTS client. thanks, Kaname On 2019/07/05 22:20, tirumal reddy wrote: > Hi all, > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00 aims to enrich DOTS protocols with various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS attack mitigation. This document specifies the normal traffic baseline and attack traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to its DOTS server in the mitigation request, the mitigation status telemetry attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS client, and the mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client can communicate to a DOTS server.  The telemetry attributes can assist the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques and perform optimal DDoS attack mitigation. > > Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome. > > Cheers, > -Tiru > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 18:44 > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy >, Ehud Doron >, Mohamed Boucadair > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name:           draft-reddy-dots-telemetry > Revision:       00 > Title:          Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Telemetry > Document date:  2019-07-05 > Group:          Individual Submission > Pages:          13 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00 > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry > > > Abstract: >    This document aims to enrich DOTS signal channel protocol with >    various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS attack mitigation. >    This document specifies the normal traffic baseline and attack >    traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to its DOTS >    server in the mitigation request, the mitigation status telemetry >    attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS client, and the >    mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client can >    communicate to a DOTS server.  The telemetry attributes can assist >    the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques and perform >    optimal DDoS attack mitigation. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org . > > The IETF Secretariat > > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots --------------9415E37DDB83A6A0EC8CEAE6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I support this draft.

I'd like to mention about the telemetry attributes from a DOTS server to a DOTS client.
Currently, several transit ISPs are providing DDoS detection and protection services.
In such a service, they send a DDoS detection notification via e-mail when they noticed that their customer is under attack.
The mail includes the telemetry information such as 4.1.5. Attack Details.
This info can be used for further decision of protection strategy by the customer's security operators.
I think it should be covered by the DOTS telemetry specification.

One suggestion to the draft:
Pre-mitigation DOTS Telemetry Attributes can also be signaled from the DOTS server to the DOTS client.

thanks,
Kaname



On 2019/07/05 22:20, tirumal reddy wrote:
Hi all,

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00 aims to enrich DOTS protocols with various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS attack mitigation. This document specifies the normal traffic baseline and attack traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to its DOTS server in the mitigation request, the mitigation status telemetry attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS client, and the mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client can communicate to a DOTS server.  The telemetry attributes can assist the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques and perform optimal DDoS attack mitigation.

Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome.

Cheers,
-Tiru

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 18:44
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt
To: Tirumaleswar Reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>, Ehud Doron <ehudd@radware.com>, Mohamed Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-reddy-dots-telemetry
Revision:       00
Title:          Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Telemetry
Document date:  2019-07-05
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          13
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry


Abstract:
   This document aims to enrich DOTS signal channel protocol with
   various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS attack mitigation.
   This document specifies the normal traffic baseline and attack
   traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to its DOTS
   server in the mitigation request, the mitigation status telemetry
   attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS client, and the
   mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client can
   communicate to a DOTS server.  The telemetry attributes can assist
   the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques and perform
   optimal DDoS attack mitigation.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots

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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiA+ID4gRG90c0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiA+ID4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0 Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9kb3RzDQo= From nobody Mon Jul 22 06:39:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0D741202E9; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 06:39:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HbJrUhETaBHD; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 06:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9441A1202C4; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 06:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr01.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.65]) by opfednr26.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45sjPk0Lh7z101n; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:39:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.73]) by opfednr01.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45sjPj65cTzDq7r; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:39:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:39:05 +0200 From: To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "Valery Smyslov" , 'Benjamin Kaduk' , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) Thread-Index: AdU9/zWZw7DhsbF6RNCA2PYrEJMCCAAJ+IgAAABxlPAAHmWBgABucluAAAF8LhAAA+q90AABWUtgAAFZ9uAABONuAAAAWKWA Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 13:39:05 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3792@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302FA841A9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <00c201d53e27$194cfc20$4be6f460$@smyslov.net> <011701d53ea2$74d81540$5e883fc0$@smyslov.net> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E32E9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3433@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E34A0@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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LZfwChMAk16FKlUB+nOVxhpy0GRkUMyLxLTSoLbxyPvphHWn3pEnS5ExjphKyqRVZa29lJGrovsj0irTsRCwn2xXj/6j7kt0IOlCEc05RfmbRGIDomKHa/dq+q79YRQqD3U+hU8eakWisO7skpY+Flou37qDuBGfUMg/9EOOv3hfSWvGjVyn1ewvbr6f9d0MVt1Lcy/yBWoeEAlj945kmBaFHnvHDTLgY4xwT+gctA/ZpoYsqMM9knF+VnoV5DIL0ZBfp0eQzWN5KPKAMmLnpV5lI0Gv2HR0Py/txOo9lk3LWJxqzmv8y5M7ps06XA5zT7XIh7fx2nmAZY95T2w9qNgvlmpJav00FSCq3zK55gI2Da0BezqiQ1/d2UAHBCkoNAUg9E8xLBRLLBU+KtB0Tv+Kq+Io+v/F3rXOkXwyhaQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 1c410f7a-540d-4f02-3332-08d70ead3563 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 Jul 2019 14:02:18.2097 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4943e38c-6dd4-428c-886d-24932bc2d5de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR16MB1657 X-OriginatorOrg: mcafee.com X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 15 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B94241202BB for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:55:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nttv6.jp Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RbWqEeK5aWAa for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:55:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from guri.nttv6.jp (guri.nttv6.jp [115.69.228.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FBAF120353 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:55:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z.nttv6.jp (z.nttv6.jp [192.168.8.15]) by guri.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 64BF625F6BD; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 23:55:37 +0900 (JST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nttv6.jp; s=20180820; t=1563807337; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=+Co0nWBdpYwYUpIKOVzaF1E46XVVXXooxmwGqtPlvas=; b=ogd4GwcNd0FYAnxAru3F7t9sUu5UAs3JPPECECNkyq9ri+PmgN2kFPi8VmpYwkFVxnVzM5 tNCAFzmduAz7M5daugwfv/XdQ1Gr+qTK9eubrg5VCvbs1pX+j62cxCvUKeT8qCIgbva/nY xthkadL2iD3Y5kxGj/uwOCzOM9qZehc= Received: from MacBook-Pro-17.local (fujiko.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:136::141]) by z.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 7B2FA75907D; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 23:55:36 +0900 (JST) To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , tirumal reddy , "dots@ietf.org" References: <156233245922.21720.2303446065970922340.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <9401a258-5a32-b612-450b-10d3452777ac@nttv6.jp> From: kaname nishizuka Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 23:55:35 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------260C9F720E753AEB47FB6DA6" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:55:47 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------260C9F720E753AEB47FB6DA6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tiru, Let me explain it. There is a service by several transit providers such as detection capabil= ities to notify clients of potential attacks. It is assumed that they have a DDoS mitigation system and a DDoS detectio= n system (for example, a flow collector) separately. It is a realistic deployment that the DOTS server is integrated with the = flow collector. When an attack occur, the DDoS detection system will notice that the cust= omer is under attack, then the pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry(=3D attack d= etails) can be signaled from the DOTS server to the (associated) DOTS cli= ent. Here is one of the traffic anomaly detection notification example (thresh= old basis) quoted from some actual service. Organization:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 XXX Attack ID:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 13227 Start Time:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2019/06/05 22= :52:30 JST+0900 Level:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 1 Traffic Amount:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 4.02k pps Threshold:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 4.00k pp= s Direction:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 incoming= Victim IP Address:=C2=A0 x.x.x.x/32 Attack Type:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 TCP SYN It says like "it seems you're under attack, what will you do? (We can off= er some protection)" regards, Kaname On 2019/07/22 23:11, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote: > > Thanks Kaname for the support. I did not get the comment. what type of = pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry attributes can be signaled from the DOTS se= rver to the DOTS client ? > > And How will the DOTS server know the pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry att= ributes relevant or associated with a DOTS client ? > > Cheers, > > -Tiru > > *From:*Dots *On Behalf Of *kaname nishizuka > *Sent:* Monday, July 22, 2019 6:44 PM > *To:* tirumal reddy ; dots@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dot= s-telemetry-00.txt > > *CAUTION*:External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless= you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------------------- > > I support this draft. > > I'd like to mention about the telemetry attributes from a DOTS server t= o a DOTS client. > Currently, several transit ISPs are providing DDoS detection and protec= tion services. > In such a service, they send a DDoS detection notification via e-mail w= hen they noticed that their customer is under attack. > The mail includes the telemetry information such as 4.1.5. Attack Detai= ls. > This info can be used for further decision of protection strategy by th= e customer's security operators. > I think it should be covered by the DOTS telemetry specification. > > One suggestion to the draft: > Pre-mitigation DOTS Telemetry Attributes can also be signaled from the = DOTS server to the DOTS client. > > thanks, > Kaname > > > On 2019/07/05 22:20, tirumal reddy wrote: > > Hi all, > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00=C2=A0aims= to enrich DOTS protocols with=C2=A0various telemetry attributes allowing= optimal DDoS attack mitigation.=C2=A0This document specifies the normal = traffic baseline and attack=C2=A0traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS clie= nt can convey to its DOTS=C2=A0server in the mitigation request, the miti= gation status telemetry=C2=A0attributes a DOTS server can communicate to = a DOTS client, and the=C2=A0mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DO= TS client can=C2=A0communicate to a DOTS server.=C2=A0 The telemetry attr= ibutes can assist=C2=A0the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techni= ques and perform=C2=A0optimal DDoS attack mitigation. > > Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome. > > > Cheers, > > -Tiru > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 18:44 > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00= =2Etxt > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy >, Ehud Doron >, Mohamed Bo= ucadair > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to= the > IETF repository. > > Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-reddy-dots-tele= metry > Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000 > Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Distributed Denial-of-Serv= ice Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Telemetry > Document date:=C2=A0 2019-07-05 > Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission > Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 13 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-dots-telemetr= y-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry= / > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00= > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-dots-te= lemetry > > > Abstract: > =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document aims to enrich DOTS signal channel proto= col with > =C2=A0 =C2=A0various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS att= ack mitigation. > =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document specifies the normal traffic baseline an= d attack > =C2=A0 =C2=A0traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey = to its DOTS > =C2=A0 =C2=A0server in the mitigation request, the mitigation statu= s telemetry > =C2=A0 =C2=A0attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS cli= ent, and the > =C2=A0 =C2=A0mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client= can > =C2=A0 =C2=A0communicate to a DOTS server.=C2=A0 The telemetry attr= ibutes can assist > =C2=A0 =C2=A0the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques= and perform > =C2=A0 =C2=A0optimal DDoS attack mitigation. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of s= ubmission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org= . > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Dots mailing list > > Dots@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots --------------260C9F720E753AEB47FB6DA6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Tiru,

Let me explain it.
There is a service by several transit providers such as detection capabilities to notify clients of potential attacks.
It is assumed that they have a DDoS mitigation system and a DDoS detection system (for example, a flow collector) separately.
It is a realistic deployment that the DOTS server is integrated with the flow collector.

When an attack occur, the DDoS detection system will notice that the customer is under attack, then the pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry(= attack details) can be signaled from the DOTS server to the (associated) DOTS client.

Here is one of the traffic anomaly detection notification example (threshold basis) quoted from some actual service.
Organization:       XXX
Attack ID:          13227
Start Time:         2019/06/05 22:52:30 JST+0900
Level:              1
Traffic Amount:     4.02k pps
Threshold:          4.00k pps
Direction:          incoming
Victim IP Address:  x.x.x.x/32
Attack Type:        TCP SYN

It says like "it seems you're under attack, what will you do? (We can offer some protection)"

regards,
Kaname


On 2019/07/22 23:11, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:

Thanks Kaname for the support. I did not get the comment. what type of pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry attributes can be signaled from the DOTS server to the DOTS client ?

And How will the DOTS server know the pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry attributes relevant or associated with a DOTS client ?

 

Cheers,

-Tiru

 

From: Dots <dots-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of kaname nishizuka
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 6:44 PM
To: tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>; dots@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt

 

CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

I support this draft.

I'd like to mention about the telemetry attributes from a DOTS server to a DOTS client.
Currently, several transit ISPs are providing DDoS detection and protection services.
In such a service, they send a DDoS detection notification via e-mail when they noticed that their customer is under attack.
The mail includes the telemetry information such as 4.1.5. Attack Details.
This info can be used for further decision of protection strategy by the customer's security operators.
I think it should be covered by the DOTS telemetry specification.

One suggestion to the draft:
Pre-mitigation DOTS Telemetry Attributes can also be signaled from the DOTS server to the DOTS client.

thanks,
Kaname


On 2019/07/05 22:20, tirumal reddy wrote:

Hi all,

 

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00 aims to enrich DOTS protocols with various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS attack mitigation. This document specifies the normal traffic baseline and attack traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to its DOTS server in the mitigation request, the mitigation status telemetry attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS client, and the mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client can communicate to a DOTS server.  The telemetry attributes can assist the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques and perform optimal DDoS attack mitigation.

Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome.


Cheers,

-Tiru

 

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 18:44
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt
To: Tirumaleswar Reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>, Ehud Doron <ehudd@radware.com>, Mohamed Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>




A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-reddy-dots-telemetry
Revision:       00
Title:          Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Telemetry
Document date:  2019-07-05
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          13
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry


Abstract:
   This document aims to enrich DOTS signal channel protocol with
   various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS attack mitigation.
   This document specifies the normal traffic baseline and attack
   traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to its DOTS
   server in the mitigation request, the mitigation status telemetry
   attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS client, and the
   mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client can
   communicate to a DOTS server.  The telemetry attributes can assist
   the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques and perform
   optimal DDoS attack mitigation.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots

 


_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots

--------------260C9F720E753AEB47FB6DA6-- From nobody Mon Jul 22 08:03:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A75CE120288; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 08:03:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id evjFu5uMGcf7; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 08:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3702F12030E; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 08:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr03.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.67]) by opfednr23.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45slGy0Fqkz5vfV; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 17:03:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.98]) by opfednr03.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45slGx6XBHzDq7V; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 17:03:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM7F.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 17:03:21 +0200 From: To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "Valery Smyslov" , 'Benjamin Kaduk' , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) Thread-Index: AdU9/zWZw7DhsbF6RNCA2PYrEJMCCAAJ+IgAAABxlPAAHmWBgABucluAAAF8LhAAA+q90AABWUtgAAFZ9uAABONuAAAAWKWAAACgKrAAAmmhIA== Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:03:21 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3A41@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302FA841A9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <00c201d53e27$194cfc20$4be6f460$@smyslov.net> <011701d53ea2$74d81540$5e883fc0$@smyslov.net> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E32E9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3433@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E34A0@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3792@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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+0000 From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "Valery Smyslov" , 'Benjamin Kaduk' , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) Thread-Index: AdU9/zWZw7DhsbF6RNCA2PYrEJMCCAAJ+IgAAABxlPAAHmWBgABucluAAAF8LhAAA+q90AABWUtgAAFZ9uAABONuAAAAWKWAAACgKrAAAmmhIAAAjoTQ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:13:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302FA841A9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <00c201d53e27$194cfc20$4be6f460$@smyslov.net> <011701d53ea2$74d81540$5e883fc0$@smyslov.net> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E32E9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3433@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E34A0@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3792@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3A41@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3A41@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.3.0.16 dlp-reaction: no-action x-originating-ip: [103.245.47.20] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 26d0128d-1298-455b-bbc2-08d70eb72757 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600148)(711020)(4605104)(1401327)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:DM5PR16MB2165; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM5PR16MB2165: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 4 x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-forefront-prvs: 01068D0A20 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; 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f3QQ1Ead4jn5l0GghnaJp7OHVIMH4L9BHcf0diiV+zg1K4xEJKTbnauKnUeUo+hN/tEj7lym7GfasH97SCyLT2Mn5r2USA3lAZ2JV9gJ2CGW/DRQ/05+qDHYWVPCPEk1Icu8LD74Zkk32/ny6gPjlfuzKvFPhn9PywvuQWhXNwZtGVd0fLRmq4AOS0v2wHULzfHTtoxRYB/LyeqR71015N8PrD/NkYuU0QjdRg7i/iF0R4uOPFHUeJFAJUjojUH/vfTtOvuk0cPQXd+wo/6MUQ7qRUSUi7okyZGEjlTibVLLT6hqsIJ4jPOdbhPYUXByb4IXfryqB6W2h16iCH/3ODIcUvex8Fj1GA0LEbjB+PmZKxdQia9JLARhfgAYz/9BkIgO9JDR/wyDCH1ZDJOndlE8+IHrmgzGCBF4i8wrkTA= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 26d0128d-1298-455b-bbc2-08d70eb72757 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 Jul 2019 15:13:29.6878 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4943e38c-6dd4-428c-886d-24932bc2d5de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR16MB2165 X-OriginatorOrg: mcafee.com X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 15 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9418 : core <6595> : inlines <7122> : streams <1828103> : uri <2870864> X-MC-Unique: B75gb9LSMteAsuD4llLaOw-1 X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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dHMNCj4gPiA+ID4gPiA+ID4NCj4gPiA+ID4gPiA+ID4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gPiA+ID4gPiA+ID4gRG90cyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QN Cj4gPiA+ID4gPiA+ID4gRG90c0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiA+ID4gPiA+ID4gPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5p ZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2RvdHMNCg== From nobody Mon Jul 22 22:32:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48A0112014F; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:32:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FVJcukjRdJQP; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9355B1202AA; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar06.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.8]) by opfedar23.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45t6Yl6vQdzBrw9; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 07:32:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.107]) by opfedar06.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45t6Yl5gBmz3wb4; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 07:32:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM8F.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 07:32:27 +0200 From: To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "Benjamin Kaduk" , Valery Smyslov CC: "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) Thread-Index: AQHVP3mDTxo3A+0PVQS1r9HIn/ZDyqbUgTIAgAMuYSA= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:32:26 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E57CA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302FA841A9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <00c201d53e27$194cfc20$4be6f460$@smyslov.net> <20190721040520.GS23137@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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fozheYQhGdGKMCyyuO01E0osOpZXsl9ecl1f0cF93aGGrTiw4W8UzUPZXNNZgtmPzIcp0fQSquDxsY6PogLa6T7I3cna0SG+eq9u4LxPSqvRVIWkvm8df1upBCS0W989LHiS2RozHs5qgBpNx0tJO81vspMwzxStrkH03mMtOj1LFs5o5zNaf3GYTdtaA8zQMPDlq9ZXA2bVq5DLY9TKPmp7HsQkYRTRrHHf3I/KK48VCrAQTJYoCD+4RQbO6YCK/dFd5xDeplrnHNl2dy+WOnTEtkFWlg9XBT/p4vbWGHa4n30TMpKk3uONGHVj0nlfqRI2CSyJltNWWRv1fxHlakdNewSIBmMBpA1tRrwhEOhmv7M2oRlHxfxq7J9vLUoF02ow/+rICM1J+34dLCIddTYDU+81UoeTLcF5IBx0X7A= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 55da6190-b06c-4784-cd65-08d70f38bdd1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Jul 2019 06:41:07.1231 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4943e38c-6dd4-428c-886d-24932bc2d5de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR16MB1487 X-OriginatorOrg: mcafee.com X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 15 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X19fX19fPG86cD48L286cD48L3ByZT4NCjxwcmU+RG90cyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3Q8bzpwPjwvbzpw PjwvcHJlPg0KPHByZT48YSBocmVmPSJtYWlsdG86RG90c0BpZXRmLm9yZyI+RG90c0BpZXRmLm9y ZzwvYT48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcHJlPg0KPHByZT48YSBocmVmPSJodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9y Zy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2RvdHMiPmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlz dGluZm8vZG90czwvYT48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcHJlPg0KPC9ibG9ja3F1b3RlPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9 Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5 Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_MWHPR16MB171185CA2F151A9A5C9AAB78EAC70MWHPR16MB1711namp_-- From nobody Tue Jul 23 02:29:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E3F5120186 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 02:29:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LikjI3L-g2hF for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 02:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.jpshallow.com (mail.jpshallow.com [217.40.240.153]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF537120177 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 02:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.jpshallow.com ([192.168.0.3] helo=N01332) by mail.jpshallow.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hpr6x-00005h-Kt; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 10:29:31 +0100 From: "Jon Shallow" To: "'Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy'" , "'Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy'" , References: <156233245922.21720.2303446065970922340.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <9401a258-5a32-b612-450b-10d3452777ac@nttv6.jp> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 10:29:31 +0100 Message-ID: <0db301d54139$220ee340$662ca9c0$@jpshallow.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0DB4_01D54141.83D65880" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQHXLWEi2IhqjANOM/EKyMiHPivrQgKonG8UAoXak3MDNyiUmgIqr4MmApTcYHSmauqhYA== Content-Language: en-gb Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:29:39 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0DB4_01D54141.83D65880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Kaname, =20 =E2=80=9CWhen an attack occur, the DDoS detection system will notice = that the customer is under attack, then the pre-mitigation DOTS = telemetry(=3D attack details) can be signaled from the DOTS server to = the (associated) DOTS client=E2=80=9D =20 How is the DOTS telemetry information signalled/pushed from the DOTS = server to the DOTS client? Can it be assumed that a mitigation request is already active from the = DOTS client and the telemetry update is piggybacked on a mitigation = observe response? Is it down to the client doing a periodic poll of a (potentially new) = resource? =20 [The call home concept could cover this, but the client and server roles = need to be clearly defined with possibly a client and server being = resident in each peer] =20 Regards =20 Jon =20 From: Dots [mailto: dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Konda, = Tirumaleswar Reddy Sent: 23 July 2019 08:04 To: kaname nishizuka; tirumal reddy; dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for = draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt =20 Thanks for the clarification. I don=E2=80=99t think any of the DOTS use = cases documents discuss this deployment. DOTS signal channel looks more = suitable for these Pre-mitigation DOTS Telemetry Attributes than the = DOTS data channel.=20 =20 Cheers, -Tiru =20 From: kaname nishizuka =20 Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 8:26 PM To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy ; = tirumal reddy ; dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for = draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt =20 CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless = you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. _____ =20 Hi Tiru, Let me explain it. There is a service by several transit providers such as detection = capabilities to notify clients of potential attacks. It is assumed that they have a DDoS mitigation system and a DDoS = detection system (for example, a flow collector) separately. It is a realistic deployment that the DOTS server is integrated with the = flow collector. When an attack occur, the DDoS detection system will notice that the = customer is under attack, then the pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry(=3D = attack details) can be signaled from the DOTS server to the (associated) = DOTS client. Here is one of the traffic anomaly detection notification example = (threshold basis) quoted from some actual service. Organization: XXX Attack ID: 13227 Start Time: 2019/06/05 22:52:30 JST+0900 Level: 1 Traffic Amount: 4.02k pps Threshold: 4.00k pps Direction: incoming Victim IP Address: x.x.x.x/32 Attack Type: TCP SYN It says like "it seems you're under attack, what will you do? (We can = offer some protection)" regards, Kaname On 2019/07/22 23:11, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote: Thanks Kaname for the support. I did not get the comment. what type of = pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry attributes can be signaled from the DOTS = server to the DOTS client ? And How will the DOTS server know the pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry = attributes relevant or associated with a DOTS client ?=20 =20 Cheers, -Tiru =20 From: Dots On = Behalf Of kaname nishizuka Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 6:44 PM To: tirumal reddy ; = dots@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for = draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt =20 CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless = you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. _____ =20 I support this draft. I'd like to mention about the telemetry attributes from a DOTS server to = a DOTS client. Currently, several transit ISPs are providing DDoS detection and = protection services. In such a service, they send a DDoS detection notification via e-mail = when they noticed that their customer is under attack. The mail includes the telemetry information such as 4.1.5. Attack = Details. This info can be used for further decision of protection strategy by the = customer's security operators. I think it should be covered by the DOTS telemetry specification. One suggestion to the draft: Pre-mitigation DOTS Telemetry Attributes can also be signaled from the = DOTS server to the DOTS client. thanks, Kaname On 2019/07/05 22:20, tirumal reddy wrote: Hi all, =20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00 aims to enrich = DOTS protocols with various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS = attack mitigation. This document specifies the normal traffic baseline = and attack traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to its = DOTS server in the mitigation request, the mitigation status telemetry = attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS client, and the = mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client can communicate = to a DOTS server. The telemetry attributes can assist the mitigator to = choose the DDoS mitigation techniques and perform optimal DDoS attack = mitigation. Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome. Cheers, -Tiru =20 ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 18:44 Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt To: Tirumaleswar Reddy , Ehud Doron = , Mohamed Boucadair A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-reddy-dots-telemetry Revision: 00 Title: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling = (DOTS) Telemetry Document date: 2019-07-05 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 13 URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry/ Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00 Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry Abstract: This document aims to enrich DOTS signal channel protocol with various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS attack mitigation. This document specifies the normal traffic baseline and attack traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to its DOTS server in the mitigation request, the mitigation status telemetry attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS client, and the mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client can communicate to a DOTS server. The telemetry attributes can assist the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques and perform optimal DDoS attack mitigation. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat _______________________________________________ Dots mailing list Dots@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots =20 =20 _______________________________________________ Dots mailing list Dots@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0DB4_01D54141.83D65880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Kaname,

 

=E2=80=9CWhen an attack occur, the DDoS detection system will notice = that the customer is under attack, then the pre-mitigation DOTS = telemetry(=3D attack details) can be signaled from the DOTS server to = the (associated) DOTS client=E2=80=9D

 

How is the DOTS = telemetry information signalled/pushed from the DOTS server to the DOTS = client?

Can it be assumed that a mitigation request is = already active from the DOTS client and the telemetry update is = piggybacked on a mitigation observe response?

Is it down to the client = doing a periodic poll of a (potentially new) = resource?

 

[The call home concept = could cover this, but the client and server roles need to be clearly = defined with possibly a client and server being resident in each = peer]

 

Regards

 

Jon

 

From: Dots [mailto: dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Konda, = Tirumaleswar Reddy
Sent: 23 July 2019 08:04
To: = kaname nishizuka; tirumal reddy; dots@ietf.org
Subject: Re: = [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for = draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt

 

Thanks for the clarification. I = don=E2=80=99t think any of the DOTS use cases documents discuss this = deployment. DOTS signal channel looks more suitable for these = Pre-mitigation DOTS Telemetry Attributes than = the DOTS data channel.

 

Cheers,

-Tiru

 

From: kaname nishizuka = <kaname@nttv6.jp>
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 8:26 = PM
To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy = <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>; tirumal reddy = <kondtir@gmail.com>; dots@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dots] = Fwd: New Version Notification for = draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt

 

CAUTION: External email. Do not click = links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the = content is safe.

Hi Tiru,

Let me = explain it.
There is a service by several transit providers such as = detection capabilities to notify clients of potential attacks.
It is = assumed that they have a DDoS mitigation system and a DDoS detection = system (for example, a flow collector) separately.
It is a realistic = deployment that the DOTS server is integrated with the flow = collector.

When an attack occur, the DDoS detection system will = notice that the customer is under attack, then the pre-mitigation DOTS = telemetry(=3D attack details) can be signaled from the DOTS server to = the (associated) DOTS client.

Here is one of the traffic anomaly = detection notification example (threshold basis) quoted from some actual = service.
Organization:       = XXX
Attack ID:          = 13227
Start Time:         = 2019/06/05 22:52:30 = JST+0900
Level:         &= nbsp;    1
Traffic Amount:     = 4.02k = pps
Threshold:          = 4.00k = pps
Direction:          = incoming
Victim IP Address:  x.x.x.x/32
Attack = Type:        TCP SYN

It says = like "it seems you're under attack, what will you do? (We can offer = some = protection)"

regards,
Kaname

On 2019/07/22 23:11, Konda, = Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:

Thanks = Kaname for the support. I did not get the comment. what type of = pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry attributes can be signaled from the DOTS = server to the DOTS client ?

And How will the DOTS server = know the pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry attributes relevant or associated = with a DOTS client ?

 

Cheers,

-Tiru

 

From: Dots <dots-bounces@ietf.org> = On Behalf Of kaname nishizuka
Sent: Monday, July 22, = 2019 6:44 PM
To: tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>; dots@ietf.org
Subject: Re: = [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for = draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt

 

CAUTION: External email. Do not click = links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the = content is safe.

I support this = draft.

I'd like to mention about the telemetry attributes from a = DOTS server to a DOTS client.
Currently, several transit ISPs are = providing DDoS detection and protection services.
In such a service, = they send a DDoS detection notification via e-mail when they noticed = that their customer is under attack.
The mail includes the telemetry = information such as 4.1.5. Attack Details.
This info can be used for = further decision of protection strategy by the customer's security = operators.
I think it should be covered by the DOTS telemetry = specification.

One suggestion to the draft:
Pre-mitigation = DOTS Telemetry Attributes can also be signaled from the DOTS server to = the DOTS = client.

thanks,
Kaname


On 2019/07/05 22:20, tirumal reddy = wrote:

Hi = all,

 

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-= 00 aims to enrich DOTS protocols with various telemetry = attributes allowing optimal DDoS attack mitigation. This document = specifies the normal traffic baseline and attack traffic telemetry = attributes a DOTS client can convey to its DOTS server in the = mitigation request, the mitigation status telemetry attributes a = DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS client, and the mitigation = efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client can communicate to a = DOTS server.  The telemetry attributes can assist the = mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques and = perform optimal DDoS attack mitigation.

Comments, = suggestions, and questions are more than = welcome.


Cheers,

-Tiru

 

---------- Forwarded message = ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>=
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 18:44
Subject: New Version Notification = for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt
To: Tirumaleswar Reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>, Ehud Doron = <ehudd@radware.com>, = Mohamed Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com= >




A new = version of I-D, draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt
has been = successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the
IETF = repository.

Name:          =  draft-reddy-dots-telemetry
Revision:      =  00
Title:          Distributed = Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Telemetry
Document = date:  2019-07-05
Group:          = Individual Submission
Pages:          = 13
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-dots-t= elemetry-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-dots-telem= etry/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-= 00
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-dots-= telemetry


Abstract:
   This document aims to = enrich DOTS signal channel protocol with
   various = telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS attack mitigation.
  =  This document specifies the normal traffic baseline and = attack
   traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can = convey to its DOTS
   server in the mitigation request, the = mitigation status telemetry
   attributes a DOTS server can = communicate to a DOTS client, and the
   mitigation = efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client can
  =  communicate to a DOTS server.  The telemetry attributes can = assist
   the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation = techniques and perform
   optimal DDoS attack = mitigation.




Please note that it may take a couple of = minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and = diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF = Secretariat



_______________________________________________
Dots mailing =
list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/dots

 

 

_______________________________________________
Dots mailing =
list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/dots

 

------=_NextPart_000_0DB4_01D54141.83D65880-- From nobody Tue Jul 23 02:52:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99FE012002F for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 02:52:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.588 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.588 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BWuXivIIA4Qn for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 02:52:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta1.chinamobile.com (cmccmta1.chinamobile.com [221.176.66.79]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D4A212013F for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 02:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.121.11]) by rmmx-syy-dmz-app01-12001 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee15d36d7ef8b1-fcdea; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 17:48:31 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee15d36d7ef8b1-fcdea X-RM-TagInfo: emlType=0 X-RM-SPAM-FLAG: 00000000 Received: from cmcc-PC (unknown[10.2.51.70]) by rmsmtp-syy-appsvr06-12006 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee65d36d7e38b3-92bdd; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 17:48:30 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee65d36d7e38b3-92bdd Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 17:48:24 +0800 From: "Meiling Chen" To: =?UTF-8?B?S29uZGEsIFRpcnVtYWxlc3dhciBSZWRkeQ==?= , kaname , "tirumal reddy" Cc: dots References: <156233245922.21720.2303446065970922340.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>, , <9401a258-5a32-b612-450b-10d3452777ac@nttv6.jp>, , , X-Priority: 3 X-Has-Attach: no X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.2.9.115[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2019072317482429157346@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart641445653283_=----" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A= =0AHi kaname,
Exactly, DDoS mitigation system and DDoS= detection system (for example, a flow collector) are separately, 
one scenari= o of the deployments that the DOTS ser= ver is integrated with the flow collector.
I'd like to do more discussion,  there exi= st some VIPs that they don't have their own DDoS detection system, and buy another company's service to prevent attack.
=
on this occasion, attack target can't sense the atta= ck, DDo= S detection system is responsible for the role of Dots Client,  then a centralized scheduling platform(if it exists= ) can act as Dots server.
in the draft draft-chen-dots-server-hierarchical-dep= loyment we make some consideration for dots server deployment(welcome read= ing and comments)
Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chen-dots-s= erver-hierarchical-deployment-00

Traffic Amount:     4.02k pps  
[question] is it means the total packets including attacks and normal traffic? In my draft I named att= ack-bandwidth.
Threshold:   =        4.00k pps
[que= stion] is threshold setting depending on each attack type=EF=BC=9FIn my dr= aft I named =0A<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Target-attack-type-threshold   
Direction= :          incomingVictim IP Address:  x.x.x.x/32
[comments]: It would also be helpful to asse= ss the number of all attack ips in distribu= ted attack mode 

Date: 2019-07-23&nb= sp;15:04
Subje= ct: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots= -telemetry-00.txt
=0A=0A
=0A

Thanks for the clarificatio= n. I don=E2=80=99t think any of the DOTS use cases documents discuss this = deployment. DOTS signal channel looks more suitable for these=0APre= -mitigation DOTS Telemetry Attributes than the DOTS data channel. =0A=

=0A

 =

=0A

Cheers,

=0A

-Tiru=

=0A

 

=0A
=0A
=0A=0A

From: k= aname nishizuka <kaname@nttv6.jp>=0A
=0ASent: Monday, July= 22, 2019 8:26 PM
=0ATo: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <Tirumales= warReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>; tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>; do= ts@ietf.org
=0ASubject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification= for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt

=0A
=0A=0A

 =

=0A
=0A=0A=0A<= tr>=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A

CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments=0A unl= ess you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A

Hi Tiru,
=0A
=0ALet me explain i= t.
=0AThere is a service by several transit providers such as detection= capabilities to notify clients of potential attacks.
=0AIt is assumed = that they have a DDoS mitigation system and a DDoS detection system (for e= xample, a flow collector) separately.
=0AIt is a realistic deployment t= hat the DOTS server is integrated with the flow collector.
=0A
=0AWh= en an attack occur, the DDoS detection system will notice that the custome= r is under attack, then the pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry(=3D attack detai= ls) can be signaled from the DOTS server to the (associated) DOTS client.<= br>=0A
=0AHere is one of the traffic anomaly detection notification exa= mple (threshold basis) quoted from some actual service.
=0AOrganization= :       XXX
=0AAttack ID:  &nbs= p;       13227
=0AStart Time:  =        2019/06/05 22:52:30 JST+0900
=0ALe= vel:           &nbs= p;  1
=0ATraffic Amount:     4.02k pps
=0AT= hreshold:          4.00k pps<= br>=0ADirection:          inc= oming
=0AVictim IP Address:  x.x.x.x/32
=0AAttack Type: &n= bsp;      TCP SYN
=0A
=0AIt says like "it s= eems you're under attack, what will you do? (We can offer some protection)= "
=0A
=0Aregards,
=0AKaname
=0A
=0A

=0A
= =0A

On 2019/07/22 23:11, = Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:

=0A
=0A
=0A

Thanks Kaname for = the support. I did not get the comment. what type of pre-mitigation DOTS t= elemetry attributes can be signaled from the DOTS server to the DOTS clien= t ?

=0A

And How will the DOTS server know the= pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry attributes relevant or associated with a DO= TS client ?=0A

=0A

 =0A

Cheers,

=0A

-Tiru

=0A

 

=0A
=0A
=0A=0A

From: D= ots=0A<dots-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of= =0Akaname nishizuka
=0ASent: Monday, July 22, 2019 6:44 PM=0ATo: tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>;=0Adots@ietf.org
=0ASubject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New= Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt

=0A
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A

CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or op= en attachments=0A unless you recognize the sender and know the content is = safe.

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A=0A

I support this dra= ft.
=0A
=0AI'd like to mention about the telemetry attributes from a= DOTS server to a DOTS client.
=0ACurrently, several transit ISPs are p= roviding DDoS detection and protection services.
=0AIn such a service, = they send a DDoS detection notification via e-mail when they noticed that = their customer is under attack.
=0AThe mail includes the telemetry info= rmation such as 4.1.5. Attack Details.
=0AThis info can be used for fur= ther decision of protection strategy by the customer's security operators.=
=0AI think it should be covered by the DOTS telemetry specification.=0A
=0AOne suggestion to the draft:
=0APre-mitigation DOTS Telemet= ry Attributes can also be signaled from the DOTS server to the DOTS client= .
=0A
=0Athanks,
=0AKaname
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A=

=0A
=0A

On 2019/0= 7/05 22:20, tirumal reddy wrote:

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A

Hi all,

=0A
=0A<= div>=0A

 =

=0A
=0A

https://tools.ie= tf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00 aims to enrich DOTS pro= tocols with various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS attack= =0A mitigation. This document specifies the normal traffic baseline a= nd attack traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to it= s DOTS server in the mitigation request, the mitigation status teleme= try attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS=0A client, and= the mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client can = communicate to a DOTS server.  The telemetry attributes can assist&nb= sp;the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques and perform = ;optimal DDoS attack mitigation.
=0A
=0AComments, suggestions, and q= uestions are more than welcome.

=0A
=0A


=0ACheers,

=0A
=0A=
=0A

-Tiru=

=0A
=0A
=0A

=  

=0A
=0A
=0A

---------- Forwarded message ---------
=0AFrom: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
=0ADate: Fri, 5 Jul = 2019 at 18:44
=0ASubject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots= -telemetry-00.txt
=0ATo: Tirumaleswar Reddy <kondtir@g= mail.com>, Ehud Doron <ehudd@radware.com>, = Mohamed Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.co= m>

=0A
=0A


=0A
=0A
=0AA new version of I-D, draft-reddy-dots-te= lemetry-00.txt
=0Ahas been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy= and posted to the
=0AIETF repository.
=0A
=0AName:    =        draft-reddy-dots-telemetry
=0ARevision: = ;      00
=0ATitle:          Di= stributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Telemetry
=0AD= ocument date:  2019-07-05
=0AGroup:        &nb= sp; Individual Submission
=0APages:          1= 3
=0AURL:            =0Ahttps://www.i= etf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt
=0AStatus= :         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-= dots-telemetry/
=0AHtmlized:       https://tools.ietf.or= g/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00
=0AHtmlized:    &nbs= p;  https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry
=0A
=0A
=0AAbstract:
=0A   This document aims to e= nrich DOTS signal channel protocol with
=0A   various telemet= ry attributes allowing optimal DDoS attack mitigation.
=0A   = This document specifies the normal traffic baseline and attack
=0A = ;  traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to its DOTS<= br>=0A   server in the mitigation request, the mitigation status= telemetry
=0A   attributes a DOTS server can communicate to = a DOTS client, and the
=0A   mitigation efficacy telemetry at= tributes a DOTS client can
=0A   communicate to a DOTS server= .  The telemetry attributes can assist
=0A   the mitigat= or to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques and perform
=0A   = ;optimal DDoS attack mitigation.
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0APlease = note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
= =0Auntil the htmlized version and diff are available at =0Atools.ietf.org.
=0A
=0AThe IETF Secretariat

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A


=0A
=0A
=0A

=0A
_______________________________________________
=0ADots mailing list=0A
Dots@ietf.org
=0A
https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/dots
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A


=0A
=0A

=0A_______________________________________________=0A
Dots mailing list=0A
Dots@ietf.org=0A
https://www.=
ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
=0A
=0A

 

=0A=0A=0A
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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:53:05 -0000 Hi Tiru, I read the draft and I also support this draft. Sending detail information about attack traffic helps my dms offload scenario because the orchestrator can decide what to do based on the detail information. IMO, "top talker" attribute defined in my previous draft is also feasible to send and effective to mitigate attack correctly. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-h-dots-mitigation-offload-expansion/ What do you think about including the top talker attribute to the telemetry= ? Thanks, Yuhei 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=885=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 9:21 tirumal reddy : > > Hi all, > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00 aims to enrich = DOTS protocols with various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS atta= ck mitigation. This document specifies the normal traffic baseline and atta= ck traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to its DOTS server= in the mitigation request, the mitigation status telemetry attributes a DO= TS server can communicate to a DOTS client, and the mitigation efficacy tel= emetry attributes a DOTS client can communicate to a DOTS server. The tele= metry attributes can assist the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation tec= hniques and perform optimal DDoS attack mitigation. > > Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome. > > Cheers, > -Tiru > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 18:44 > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy , Ehud Doron , Mohamed Boucadair > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-reddy-dots-telemetry > Revision: 00 > Title: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS= ) Telemetry > Document date: 2019-07-05 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 13 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-dots-tel= emetry-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-dots-telemet= ry/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00 > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-dots-te= lemetry > > > Abstract: > This document aims to enrich DOTS signal channel protocol with > various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS attack mitigation. > This document specifies the normal traffic baseline and attack > traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to its DOTS > server in the mitigation request, the mitigation status telemetry > attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS client, and the > mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client can > communicate to a DOTS server. The telemetry attributes can assist > the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques and perform > optimal DDoS attack mitigation. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots --=20 ---------------------------------- Yuuhei HAYASHI 08065300884 yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp ---------------------------------- From nobody Tue Jul 23 05:07:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D62BC120071 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:07:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nttv6.jp Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8u-Dxg3OKuZD for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from guri.nttv6.jp (guri.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:136::140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D6F712015A for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z.nttv6.jp (z.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:6::f]) by guri.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 8AF0725F6BB; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 21:07:02 +0900 (JST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nttv6.jp; s=20180820; t=1563883622; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=ssTJes+NuwM2WWtR9J3VMcjK9AMTKiPkj9kKlRKg71I=; b=YfNVyobVEGQkU9DMaM+m2qxD9f6m9OcJwtszkHNGqJwMFwFw5HCZZMccNwLC+HnbAlPaJe l28aq1ErWEe7MdSwPWWRE73H9iQdTk2AOK4grMlL0GCoF77QKmhZuCSuXz3+Hkltxuq74z F4fuZD19LqpfKmarMQE0TTBwi8LCsMo= Received: from MacBook-Pro-17.local (fujiko.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:136::141]) by z.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id D25F675907E; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 21:07:01 +0900 (JST) To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , tirumal reddy , "dots@ietf.org" References: <156233245922.21720.2303446065970922340.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <9401a258-5a32-b612-450b-10d3452777ac@nttv6.jp> From: kaname nishizuka Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 21:07:01 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------292F98C05E71C71144BA72B9" Content-Language: en-US Authentication-Results: guri.nttv6.jp; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=kaname@nttv6.jp Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:07:08 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------292F98C05E71C71144BA72B9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tiru, On 2019/07/23 16:04, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote: > > Thanks for the clarification. > Welcome :) > I don=E2=80=99t think any of the DOTS use cases documents discuss this = deployment. > Also, no for me. > DOTS signal channel looks more suitable for these Pre-mitigation DOTS T= elemetry Attributes than the DOTS data channel. > Yes, I agree. thanks, Kaname > > Cheers, > > -Tiru > > *From:*kaname nishizuka > *Sent:* Monday, July 22, 2019 8:26 PM > *To:* Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy ; t= irumal reddy ; dots@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dot= s-telemetry-00.txt > > *CAUTION*:External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless= you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------------------- > > Hi Tiru, > > Let me explain it. > There is a service by several transit providers such as detection capab= ilities to notify clients of potential attacks. > It is assumed that they have a DDoS mitigation system and a DDoS detect= ion system (for example, a flow collector) separately. > It is a realistic deployment that the DOTS server is integrated with th= e flow collector. > > When an attack occur, the DDoS detection system will notice that the cu= stomer is under attack, then the pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry(=3D attack= details) can be signaled from the DOTS server to the (associated) DOTS c= lient. > > Here is one of the traffic anomaly detection notification example (thre= shold basis) quoted from some actual service. > Organization:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 XXX > Attack ID:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 13227 > Start Time:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2019/06/05 = 22:52:30 JST+0900 > Level:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 1 > Traffic Amount:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 4.02k pps > Threshold:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 4.00k = pps > Direction:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 incomi= ng > Victim IP Address:=C2=A0 x.x.x.x/32 > Attack Type:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 TCP SYN > > It says like "it seems you're under attack, what will you do? (We can o= ffer some protection)" > > regards, > Kaname > > On 2019/07/22 23:11, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote: > > Thanks Kaname for the support. I did not get the comment. what type= of pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry attributes can be signaled from the DOT= S server to the DOTS client ? > > And How will the DOTS server know the pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry= attributes relevant or associated with a DOTS client ? > > Cheers, > > -Tiru > > *From:*Dots = *On Behalf Of *kaname nishizuka > *Sent:* Monday, July 22, 2019 6:44 PM > *To:* tirumal reddy ;= dots@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy= -dots-telemetry-00.txt > > *CAUTION*:External email. Do not click links or open attachments un= less you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------------------------------------- > > I support this draft. > > I'd like to mention about the telemetry attributes from a DOTS serv= er to a DOTS client. > Currently, several transit ISPs are providing DDoS detection and pr= otection services. > In such a service, they send a DDoS detection notification via e-ma= il when they noticed that their customer is under attack. > The mail includes the telemetry information such as 4.1.5. Attack D= etails. > This info can be used for further decision of protection strategy b= y the customer's security operators. > I think it should be covered by the DOTS telemetry specification. > > One suggestion to the draft: > Pre-mitigation DOTS Telemetry Attributes can also be signaled from = the DOTS server to the DOTS client. > > thanks, > Kaname > > > > On 2019/07/05 22:20, tirumal reddy wrote: > > Hi all, > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00=C2=A0= aims to enrich DOTS protocols with=C2=A0various telemetry attributes allo= wing optimal DDoS attack mitigation.=C2=A0This document specifies the nor= mal traffic baseline and attack=C2=A0traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS = client can convey to its DOTS=C2=A0server in the mitigation request, the = mitigation status telemetry=C2=A0attributes a DOTS server can communicate= to a DOTS client, and the=C2=A0mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes = a DOTS client can=C2=A0communicate to a DOTS server.=C2=A0 The telemetry = attributes can assist=C2=A0the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation te= chniques and perform=C2=A0optimal DDoS attack mitigation. > > Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome. > > > Cheers, > > -Tiru > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 18:44 > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetr= y-00.txt > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy >, Ehud Doron >, Moha= med Boucadair > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and poste= d to the > IETF repository. > > Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-reddy-dots-= telemetry > Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000 > Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Distributed Denial-of-= Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Telemetry > Document date:=C2=A0 2019-07-05 > Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission > Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 13 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-dots-tele= metry-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-dots-telem= etry/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetr= y-00 > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-dot= s-telemetry > > > Abstract: > =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document aims to enrich DOTS signal channel p= rotocol with > =C2=A0 =C2=A0various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS= attack mitigation. > =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document specifies the normal traffic baselin= e and attack > =C2=A0 =C2=A0traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can con= vey to its DOTS > =C2=A0 =C2=A0server in the mitigation request, the mitigation s= tatus telemetry > =C2=A0 =C2=A0attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS= client, and the > =C2=A0 =C2=A0mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS cl= ient can > =C2=A0 =C2=A0communicate to a DOTS server.=C2=A0 The telemetry = attributes can assist > =C2=A0 =C2=A0the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techni= ques and perform > =C2=A0 =C2=A0optimal DDoS attack mitigation. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time = of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf= =2Eorg . > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Dots mailing list > > Dots@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Dots mailing list > > Dots@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > --------------292F98C05E71C71144BA72B9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Tiru,


On 2019/07/23 16:04, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:

Thanks for the clarification.

Welcome :)

I don’t think any of the DOTS use cases documents discuss this deployment.

Also, no for me.

DOTS signal channel looks more suitable for these Pre-mitigation DOTS Telemetry Attributes than the DOTS data channel.

 

Yes, I agree.

thanks,
Kaname

Cheers,

-Tiru

 

From: kaname nishizuka <kaname@nttv6.jp>
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 8:26 PM
To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>; tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>; dots@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt

 

CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

Hi Tiru,

Let me explain it.
There is a service by several transit providers such as detection capabilities to notify clients of potential attacks.
It is assumed that they have a DDoS mitigation system and a DDoS detection system (for example, a flow collector) separately.
It is a realistic deployment that the DOTS server is integrated with the flow collector.

When an attack occur, the DDoS detection system will notice that the customer is under attack, then the pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry(= attack details) can be signaled from the DOTS server to the (associated) DOTS client.

Here is one of the traffic anomaly detection notification example (threshold basis) quoted from some actual service.
Organization:       XXX
Attack ID:          13227
Start Time:         2019/06/05 22:52:30 JST+0900
Level:              1
Traffic Amount:     4.02k pps
Threshold:          4.00k pps
Direction:          incoming
Victim IP Address:  x.x.x.x/32
Attack Type:        TCP SYN

It says like "it seems you're under attack, what will you do? (We can offer some protection)"

regards,
Kaname

On 2019/07/22 23:11, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:

Thanks Kaname for the support. I did not get the comment. what type of pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry attributes can be signaled from the DOTS server to the DOTS client ?

And How will the DOTS server know the pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry attributes relevant or associated with a DOTS client ?

 

Cheers,

-Tiru

 

From: Dots <dots-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of kaname nishizuka
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 6:44 PM
To: tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>; dots@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt

 

CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

I support this draft.

I'd like to mention about the telemetry attributes from a DOTS server to a DOTS client.
Currently, several transit ISPs are providing DDoS detection and protection services.
In such a service, they send a DDoS detection notification via e-mail when they noticed that their customer is under attack.
The mail includes the telemetry information such as 4.1.5. Attack Details.
This info can be used for further decision of protection strategy by the customer's security operators.
I think it should be covered by the DOTS telemetry specification.

One suggestion to the draft:
Pre-mitigation DOTS Telemetry Attributes can also be signaled from the DOTS server to the DOTS client.

thanks,
Kaname



On 2019/07/05 22:20, tirumal reddy wrote:

Hi all,

 

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00 aims to enrich DOTS protocols with various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS attack mitigation. This document specifies the normal traffic baseline and attack traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to its DOTS server in the mitigation request, the mitigation status telemetry attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS client, and the mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client can communicate to a DOTS server.  The telemetry attributes can assist the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques and perform optimal DDoS attack mitigation.

Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome.


Cheers,

-Tiru

 

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 18:44
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt
To: Tirumaleswar Reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>, Ehud Doron <ehudd@radware.com>, Mohamed Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>




A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-reddy-dots-telemetry
Revision:       00
Title:          Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Telemetry
Document date:  2019-07-05
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          13
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry


Abstract:
   This document aims to enrich DOTS signal channel protocol with
   various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS attack mitigation.
   This document specifies the normal traffic baseline and attack
   traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to its DOTS
   server in the mitigation request, the mitigation status telemetry
   attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS client, and the
   mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client can
   communicate to a DOTS server.  The telemetry attributes can assist
   the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques and perform
   optimal DDoS attack mitigation.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat




_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots

 



_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots

 


--------------292F98C05E71C71144BA72B9-- From nobody Tue Jul 23 05:29:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6795412023D for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:29:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nttv6.jp Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O4XddJ3XR_RH for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from guri.nttv6.jp (guri.nttv6.jp [115.69.228.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B57B120230 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z.nttv6.jp (z.nttv6.jp [192.168.8.15]) by guri.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 6E19625F6BB; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 21:29:20 +0900 (JST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nttv6.jp; s=20180820; t=1563884960; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=OR11CmdQW5tCZwlDBgl28d76kwnfBz49AC2hD6HO0OI=; b=HoUWCN6484MH9ggPoB5mYlBVUUPvvNmzV9yrHXNc2hqGGTLflLsTtiHpCaYCx4bGSa2xrQ DibgFPguVKgTWba2MMLW5j0VPWw0CpOvp6JvcGeh5ZF3NIwwqI5Xw0tOJfvkHSk+1FYdiN amVOAkDxDdzmbL+MD06okTkXfehDGkw= Received: from MacBook-Pro-17.local (fujiko.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:136::141]) by z.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id BA4E0763504; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 21:29:19 +0900 (JST) To: Jon Shallow , "'Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy'" , dots@ietf.org References: <156233245922.21720.2303446065970922340.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <9401a258-5a32-b612-450b-10d3452777ac@nttv6.jp> <0db301d54139$220ee340$662ca9c0$@jpshallow.com> From: kaname nishizuka Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 21:29:19 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0db301d54139$220ee340$662ca9c0$@jpshallow.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9A36705E1DEC196350CEC33C" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:29:25 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9A36705E1DEC196350CEC33C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jon, Please see inline. On 2019/07/23 18:29, Jon Shallow wrote: > > Hi Kaname, > > =E2=80=9CWhen an attack occur, the DDoS detection system will notice th= at the customer is under attack, then the pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry(=3D= attack details) can be signaled from the DOTS server to the (associated)= DOTS client=E2=80=9D > > How is the DOTS telemetry information signalled/pushed from the DOTS se= rver to the DOTS client? > [kaname]Yes, that is the question. I think it should be discussed in the = meeting with regard to the telemetry I-D. > Can it be assumed that a mitigation request is already active from the = DOTS client and the telemetry update is piggybacked on a mitigation obser= ve response? > [kaname]No. Currently the notification (via e-mail etc...) is done before= any mitigation request. If we allowed a dummy mitigation request for that observation purpose, it= could be yes. (I don't think it's a good strategy) > Is it down to the client doing a periodic poll of a (potentially new) r= esource? > [kaname]It could be one solution, however I'd like to seek a way with pus= h notification. > [The call home concept could cover this, but the client and server role= s need to be clearly defined with possibly a client and server being resi= dent in each peer] > [kaname] Yes, the telemetry I-D is covering the information exchange in b= oth directions(server->client, client->server). Then I think it's a typic= al deployment for ISPs and mobile carriers that the DOTS server is in the= provider's network and the DOTS client in the customer's network, as Mei= ling agreed with the usecase. thanks, Kaname > > Regards > > Jon > > *From:*Dots [mailto: dots-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Konda, Tirum= aleswar Reddy > *Sent:* 23 July 2019 08:04 > *To:* kaname nishizuka; tirumal reddy; dots@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dot= s-telemetry-00.txt > > Thanks for the clarification. I don=E2=80=99t think any of the DOTS use= cases documents discuss this deployment. DOTS signal channel looks more = suitable for these Pre-mitigation DOTS Telemetry Attributes than the DOTS= data channel. > > Cheers, > > -Tiru > > *From:*kaname nishizuka > *Sent:* Monday, July 22, 2019 8:26 PM > *To:* Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy ; t= irumal reddy ; dots@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dot= s-telemetry-00.txt > > *CAUTION*:External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless= you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------------------- > > Hi Tiru, > > Let me explain it. > There is a service by several transit providers such as detection capab= ilities to notify clients of potential attacks. > It is assumed that they have a DDoS mitigation system and a DDoS detect= ion system (for example, a flow collector) separately. > It is a realistic deployment that the DOTS server is integrated with th= e flow collector. > > When an attack occur, the DDoS detection system will notice that the cu= stomer is under attack, then the pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry(=3D attack= details) can be signaled from the DOTS server to the (associated) DOTS c= lient. > > Here is one of the traffic anomaly detection notification example (thre= shold basis) quoted from some actual service. > Organization:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 XXX > Attack ID:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 13227 > Start Time:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2019/06/05 = 22:52:30 JST+0900 > Level:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 1 > Traffic Amount:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 4.02k pps > Threshold:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 4.00k = pps > Direction:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 incomi= ng > Victim IP Address:=C2=A0 x.x.x.x/32 > Attack Type:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 TCP SYN > > It says like "it seems you're under attack, what will you do? (We can o= ffer some protection)" > > regards, > Kaname > > On 2019/07/22 23:11, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote: > > Thanks Kaname for the support. I did not get the comment. what type= of pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry attributes can be signaled from the DOT= S server to the DOTS client ? > > And How will the DOTS server know the pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry= attributes relevant or associated with a DOTS client ? > > Cheers, > > -Tiru > > *From:*Dots = *On Behalf Of *kaname nishizuka > *Sent:* Monday, July 22, 2019 6:44 PM > *To:* tirumal reddy ;= dots@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy= -dots-telemetry-00.txt > > *CAUTION*:External email. Do not click links or open attachments un= less you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------------------------------------- > > I support this draft. > > I'd like to mention about the telemetry attributes from a DOTS serv= er to a DOTS client. > Currently, several transit ISPs are providing DDoS detection and pr= otection services. > In such a service, they send a DDoS detection notification via e-ma= il when they noticed that their customer is under attack. > The mail includes the telemetry information such as 4.1.5. Attack D= etails. > This info can be used for further decision of protection strategy b= y the customer's security operators. > I think it should be covered by the DOTS telemetry specification. > > One suggestion to the draft: > Pre-mitigation DOTS Telemetry Attributes can also be signaled from = the DOTS server to the DOTS client. > > thanks, > Kaname > > > On 2019/07/05 22:20, tirumal reddy wrote: > > Hi all, > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00=C2=A0= aims to enrich DOTS protocols with=C2=A0various telemetry attributes allo= wing optimal DDoS attack mitigation.=C2=A0This document specifies the nor= mal traffic baseline and attack=C2=A0traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS = client can convey to its DOTS=C2=A0server in the mitigation request, the = mitigation status telemetry=C2=A0attributes a DOTS server can communicate= to a DOTS client, and the=C2=A0mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes = a DOTS client can=C2=A0communicate to a DOTS server. The telemetry attrib= utes can assist=C2=A0the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniqu= es and perform=C2=A0optimal DDoS attack mitigation. > > Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome. > > > Cheers, > > -Tiru > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 18:44 > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetr= y-00.txt > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy >, Ehud Doron >, Moha= med Boucadair > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and poste= d to the > IETF repository. > > Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-reddy-dots-= telemetry > Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000 > Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Distributed Denial-of-= Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Telemetry > Document date:=C2=A0 2019-07-05 > Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission > Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 13 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-dots-tele= metry-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-dots-telem= etry/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetr= y-00 > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-dot= s-telemetry > > > Abstract: > =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document aims to enrich DOTS signal channel p= rotocol with > =C2=A0 =C2=A0various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS= attack mitigation. > =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document specifies the normal traffic baselin= e and attack > =C2=A0 =C2=A0traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can con= vey to its DOTS > =C2=A0 =C2=A0server in the mitigation request, the mitigation s= tatus telemetry > =C2=A0 =C2=A0attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS= client, and the > =C2=A0 =C2=A0mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS cl= ient can > =C2=A0 =C2=A0communicate to a DOTS server.=C2=A0 The telemetry = attributes can assist > =C2=A0 =C2=A0the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techni= ques and perform > =C2=A0 =C2=A0optimal DDoS attack mitigation. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time = of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf= =2Eorg . > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Dots mailing list > > Dots@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > _______________________________________________ > > Dots mailing list > > Dots@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots --------------9A36705E1DEC196350CEC33C Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jon,

Please see inline.

On 2019/07/23 18:29, Jon Shallow wrote:

Hi Kaname,

 

“When an attack occur, the DDoS detection system will notice that the customer is under attack, then the pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry(= attack details) can be signaled from the DOTS server to the (associated) DOTS clientâ€

 

How is the DOTS telemetry information signalled/pushed from the DOTS server to the DOTS client?

[kaname]Yes, that is the question. I think it should be discussed in the meeting with regard to the telemetry I-D.


Can it be assumed that a mitigation request is already active from the DOTS client and the telemetry update is piggybacked on a mitigation observe response?

[kaname]No. Currently the notification (via e-mail etc...) is done before any mitigation request.
If we allowed a dummy mitigation request for that observation purpose, it could be yes. (I don't think it's a good strategy)


Is it down to the client doing a periodic poll of a (potentially new) resource?

 

[kaname]It could be one solution, however I'd like to seek a way with push notification.


[The call home concept could cover this, but the client and server roles need to be clearly defined with possibly a client and server being resident in each peer]

 

[kaname] Yes, the telemetry I-D is covering the information exchange in both directions(server->client, client->server). Then I think it's a typical deployment for ISPs and mobile carriers that the DOTS server is in the provider's network and the DOTS client in the customer's network, as Meiling agreed with the usecase.

thanks,
Kaname

Regards

 

Jon

 

From: Dots [mailto: dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
Sent: 23 July 2019 08:04
To: kaname nishizuka; tirumal reddy; dots@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt

 

Thanks for the clarification. I don’t think any of the DOTS use cases documents discuss this deployment. DOTS signal channel looks more suitable for these Pre-mitigation DOTS Telemetry Attributes than the DOTS data channel.

 

Cheers,

-Tiru

 

From: kaname nishizuka <kaname@nttv6.jp>
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 8:26 PM
To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>; tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>; dots@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt

 

CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

Hi Tiru,

Let me explain it.
There is a service by several transit providers such as detection capabilities to notify clients of potential attacks.
It is assumed that they have a DDoS mitigation system and a DDoS detection system (for example, a flow collector) separately.
It is a realistic deployment that the DOTS server is integrated with the flow collector.

When an attack occur, the DDoS detection system will notice that the customer is under attack, then the pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry(= attack details) can be signaled from the DOTS server to the (associated) DOTS client.

Here is one of the traffic anomaly detection notification example (threshold basis) quoted from some actual service.
Organization:       XXX
Attack ID:          13227
Start Time:         2019/06/05 22:52:30 JST+0900
Level:              1
Traffic Amount:     4.02k pps
Threshold:          4.00k pps
Direction:          incoming
Victim IP Address:  x.x.x.x/32
Attack Type:        TCP SYN

It says like "it seems you're under attack, what will you do? (We can offer some protection)"

regards,
Kaname

On 2019/07/22 23:11, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:

Thanks Kaname for the support. I did not get the comment. what type of pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry attributes can be signaled from the DOTS server to the DOTS client ?

And How will the DOTS server know the pre-mitigation DOTS telemetry attributes relevant or associated with a DOTS client ?

 

Cheers,

-Tiru

 

From: Dots <dots-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of kaname nishizuka
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 6:44 PM
To: tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>; dots@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt

 

CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

I support this draft.

I'd like to mention about the telemetry attributes from a DOTS server to a DOTS client.
Currently, several transit ISPs are providing DDoS detection and protection services.
In such a service, they send a DDoS detection notification via e-mail when they noticed that their customer is under attack.
The mail includes the telemetry information such as 4.1.5. Attack Details.
This info can be used for further decision of protection strategy by the customer's security operators.
I think it should be covered by the DOTS telemetry specification.

One suggestion to the draft:
Pre-mitigation DOTS Telemetry Attributes can also be signaled from the DOTS server to the DOTS client.

thanks,
Kaname


On 2019/07/05 22:20, tirumal reddy wrote:

Hi all,

 

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00 aims to enrich DOTS protocols with various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS attack mitigation. This document specifies the normal traffic baseline and attack traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to its DOTS server in the mitigation request, the mitigation status telemetry attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS client, and the mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client can communicate to a DOTS server.  The telemetry attributes can assist the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques and perform optimal DDoS attack mitigation.

Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome.


Cheers,

-Tiru

 

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 18:44
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt
To: Tirumaleswar Reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>, Ehud Doron <ehudd@radware.com>, Mohamed Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>




A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-reddy-dots-telemetry
Revision:       00
Title:          Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Telemetry
Document date:  2019-07-05
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          13
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry


Abstract:
   This document aims to enrich DOTS signal channel protocol with
   various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS attack mitigation.
   This document specifies the normal traffic baseline and attack
   traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to its DOTS
   server in the mitigation request, the mitigation status telemetry
   attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS client, and the
   mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client can
   communicate to a DOTS server.  The telemetry attributes can assist
   the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques and perform
   optimal DDoS attack mitigation.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots

 

 

_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots

 


_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots

--------------9A36705E1DEC196350CEC33C-- From nobody Tue Jul 23 06:57:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85884120119; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 06:56:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vmj8b9yxkb8i; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 06:56:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85A8A120116; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 06:56:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr06.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.70]) by opfednr26.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45tKlk55qtzydh; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:56:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.101]) by opfednr06.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45tKlk3N5dzDq75; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:56:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM6F.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:56:50 +0200 From: To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "Benjamin Kaduk" , Valery Smyslov CC: "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) Thread-Index: AdU9/zWZw7DhsbF6RNCA2PYrEJMCCAAJ+IgAAFSa1gAAAzHm8ABkbgsAAAIWUGAADlD0QA== Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:56:49 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E604F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302FA841A9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <00c201d53e27$194cfc20$4be6f460$@smyslov.net> <20190721040520.GS23137@kduck.mit.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E57CA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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(Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CD7D12084F; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:39:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nttv6.jp Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 86akY3vnpm-l; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from guri.nttv6.jp (guri.nttv6.jp [115.69.228.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3348F120834; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z.nttv6.jp (z.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:6::f]) by guri.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 744D825F6BD; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 03:39:35 +0900 (JST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nttv6.jp; s=20180820; t=1563907175; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=JPyJ3xwFlsqegsm77tRt2/ZrJ/v129PZgytRcrsiAgA=; b=XeUWfdnaqs7uv82hGkLriJo46/b9PApP2PvDvdip+8wlKB0CRrDUYVhgdXJr3fVIX0Z9a0 jtbVjk6nsEFkfMAnO8y1CazLnla+yRdfcFIF7lzHuIViC1w+uXvWhGwQ9hqEscSxe23OjB CT5HUKCagWEkoQIHrrGO6UQYahatpqw= Received: from MacBook-Pro-17.local (fujiko.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:136::141]) by z.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 95836763504; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 03:39:31 +0900 (JST) To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , Benjamin Kaduk , Valery Smyslov Cc: "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "dots@ietf.org" References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302FA841A9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <00c201d53e27$194cfc20$4be6f460$@smyslov.net> <20190721040520.GS23137@kduck.mit.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E57CA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E604F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: kaname nishizuka Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 03:39:30 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E604F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Authentication-Results: guri.nttv6.jp; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=kaname@nttv6.jp Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 18:39:54 -0000 Thank you, Med. Is the presentation about the signal-channel I-D already included in the agenda? I can spare at least 5min from `2. Controlling Filtering Rules Using DOTS Signal Channel (15 min)` for this discussion. thanks, Kaname On 2019/07/23 22:56, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > Re-, > > Thank you, Tiru, > > All: FWIW, we prepared a set of slides to expose the pending DISCUSS point from Mirja. The slides are available at: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-dots-heartbeat-mechanism-mirjas-discuss-on-the-signal-channel-i-d-00 > > Cheers, > Med > >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy [mailto:TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com] >> Envoyé : mardi 23 juillet 2019 08:41 >> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; Benjamin Kaduk; Valery Smyslov >> Cc : dots-chairs@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org >> Objet : RE: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2019 11:02 AM >>> To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >>> ; Benjamin Kaduk >>> ; Valery Smyslov >>> Cc: dots-chairs@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org >>> Subject: RE: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Tiru, all, >>> >>> Please see inline. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Med >>> >>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>> De : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >>>> [mailto:TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com] >>>> Envoyé : dimanche 21 juillet 2019 08:52 À : Benjamin Kaduk; Valery >>>> Smyslov Cc : dots-chairs@ietf.org; BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; >>>> dots@ietf.org Objet : RE: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD >>>> Help Needed) >>>> >>>> Hi Ben, >>>> >>>> There seems to several confusions regarding the heartbeat mechanism, I >>>> will try to address all the comments/Discuss from you, Mirja and >>>> Valery >>>> below: >>>> >>>> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252 is specific to UDP transport >>>> (and does not deal with TCP). Please see the first paragraph in >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252#section-3. The message >>>> transmission parameters (max-retransmit, ack-timeout and >>>> ack-random-factor) and missing-hb-allowed discussed in DOTS signal >>>> channel are specific to UDP transport. >>>> >>>> [2] CoAP over TCP is discussed in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8323. >>>> Please see the following differences b/w CoAP-over UDP and >>>> CoAP-over-TCP relevant to our discussion: >>>> >>>> a) CoAP ping/pong defined in RFC7252 (uses Empty confirmable message >>>> and >>>> reset) will not work for CoAP-over-TCP. As per >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8323#section-3.4, Empty messages (Code >>>> 0.00) can always be sent and MUST be ignored by the recipient. >>>> CoAP-over- TCP defines its own CoAP ping/pong for connection health >>>> (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8323#section-5.4). >>>> >>>> b)Confirmable and Non-confirmable message types are specific to UDP, >>>> and are not supported in CoAP-over-TCP. >>>> >>>> [3] For TCP, if no ack is received for CoAP ping for specific >>>> duration, TCP will close the connection, and the DOTS client will have >>>> to re- establish the TCP connection. missing-hb-allowed is of no use >>>> for TCP. We are all in the same page for TCP, and the draft can >> probably >>>> be updated for better clarity. >>>> >>>> [4] Now coming to UDP, please see my responses below: >>>> >>>> a) As you already know, DOTS signal channel uses heartbeat exchange in >>>> both directions, and hence CoAP ping is sent by both DOTS client and >>>> server. >>>> b) CoAP ping is a confirmable message and hence the exponential >>>> back-off with the default value of MAX_RETRANSMIT is 4 >>>> (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252#section-4.8). >>>> c) CoAP ping is the only confirmable message exchanged during attack >>>> (all other messages exchanged during an attack are non-confirmable). >>>> The specification allows distinct values for message transmission >>>> parameters and missing-hb-allowed to be used during attack and peace >>> times. >>>> To handle congestion conditions during an attack, the specification >>>> allows two options: >>>> >>>> [Option a] By setting MAX_RETRANSMIT to 1, exponential-back off is >>>> avoided and missing-hb-allowed set to a very higher value (e.g. 20) to >>>> handle congestion (high packet loss). The draft can be updated to >>>> explain [Option a] in more detail. >>>> [Option b] The CoAP MAX_RETRANSMIT default value of 4 is not modified, >>>> and for example, missing-hb-allowed can be set to 5 (since 4 transmits >>>> are not sufficient to detect the peer is not alive during congestion). >>>> >>> [Med] We can add this text to illustrate the configuration flexibility: >>> >>> The specification allows for a flexible retry configuration when an >>> unreliable transport is in use. For example, a server may be tweaked >>> to return a lower 'missing-hb-allowed' (e.g., 5) value but delegate >>> the retransmission to the underlying CoAP library by setting 'max- >>> retransmit' to a high value (e.g., 3). The server may also be >>> configured to return a 'max-retransmit' set to '1' together with a >>> higher 'missing-hb-allowed' value (e.g., 15). >> Looks good, Both these techniques are used by protocols today, I see DTLS >> heartbeat uses retransmit and exponential back-off (see >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6347#section-4.2.4.1) for liveness check >> and in STUN usage for consent freshness >> (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7675) STUN binding requests are sent >> periodically. >> >> Cheers, >> -Tiru >> >>> >>>> The Discuss from Mirja is not to rely on the CoAP ping/pong but to >>>> define it in the DOTS layer itself (please see >>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/V6vv28zDpdY5eR_kaB7L- >>> 60bhkk >>>> ) and suggested to go with an alternate design using non-confirmable >>>> messages. The alternate design won't work is our assessment, please >>>> see my response >>>> >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/QRMfsmhPTFksN6a_nBBKimVx- >>> lM >>>> Cheers, >>>> -Tiru >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Dots On Behalf Of Benjamin Kaduk >>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 9:35 AM >>>>> To: Valery Smyslov >>>>> Cc: dots-chairs@ietf.org; mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; >>>>> dots@ietf.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) >>>>> >>>>> This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click >>>> links or >>>>> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the >>>>> content is safe. >>>>> >>>>> Hi Valery, >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 02:42:50PM +0300, Valery Smyslov wrote: >>>>>> Hi Med, >>>>>> >>>>>> I believe Mirja's main point was that if you use liveness check >>>>>> mechanism in the transport layer, then if it reports that liveness >>>> check fails, >>>>> then it _also_ closes the transport session. >>>>>> Quotes from her emails: >>>>>> "Yes, as Coap Ping is used, the agent should not only conclude >>>>>> that >>>> the >>>>> DOTS signal session is disconnected but also the Coap session and >>>>> not >>>> send >>>>> any further Coap messages anymore." >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>> "Actually to my understanding this will not work. Both TCP >>>>>> heartbeat >>>> and >>>>> Coap Ping are transmitted reliably. If you don’t receive an ack for >>>> these >>>>> transmissions you are not able to send any additional messages and >>>>> can >>>> only >>>>> close the connection." >>>>>> I'm not familiar with CoAP, but I suspect she's right about TCP - >>>>>> if TCP layer itself doesn't receive ACK for the sent data after >>>>>> several >>>>> retransmissions, the connection is closed. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for this crisp summary (and thanks Med for the detailed >>>>> writeup >>>> as >>>>> well)! >>>>> >>>>>> As far as I understand the current draft allows underlying >>>>>> liveness check to fail and has a parameter to restart this check >>>>>> several times if this happens. It seems that a new transport >>>>>> session will be created in this case (at least if TCP is used). In >>>>>> my reading of the draft this seems not been assumed, it is assumed >>>>>> that the session remains >>>> the >>>>> same. So, I think that main Mirja's concern is that it won't work >>>>> (at >>>> least with >>>>> TCP). >>>>> >>>>> My sense is similar; if I could attempt to summarize Mirja's stance, >>>> it's that >>>>> we're invoking a transport-level feature that does its own >>>>> retransmit >>>> and >>>>> backoff, but then if the transport comes back and says "the peer is >>>> gone", we >>>>> say "but we're under attack, so I don't believe you; try again". >>>>> This kicks of another independent set of "retransmits" (I know it's >>>>> not technically the right word) with a fresh exponential backoff. >>>>> There's >>>> two >>>>> complaints about this: (1) we're changing the transport, since if >>>>> the >>>> transport >>>>> concludes the peer is gone then the transport "normally" tears down >>>>> the connection (*) entirely, and (2) the assembly of (exponential >>>>> backoff >>>> 1), >>>>> (exponential backoff 2), (exponential backoff 2) is strange pacing, >>>>> and >>>> might >>>>> be better served by a similar number of "retransmits" but with >>>>> different pacing, since the long delay at the end of each backoff >>>>> period is not >>>> expected >>>>> to add a huge amount of value in terms of letting congestion ease >>>>> during attack time, and we would be just as well served by capping >>>>> the delay between retransmits and having more retransmits. >>>>> >>>>> The asterisk on (1) is of course because, as is noted later in the >>>> thread, only >>>>> TCP tears down the association when it concludes the peer is gone >>>> (assuming >>>>> I'm reading the right parts of 7252). Quoting 7252: >>>>> >>>>> If the >>>>> retransmission counter reaches MAX_RETRANSMIT on a timeout, or if >>> the >>>>> endpoint receives a Reset message, then the attempt to transmit >> the >>>>> message is canceled and the application process informed of >> failure. >>>>> On the other hand, if the endpoint receives an acknowledgement in >>>>> time, transmission is considered successful. >>>>> >>>>> So all CoAP does is to tell the application "that request didn't >>>>> work", >>>> but CoAP >>>>> is happy to try additional requests on the connection; the teardown >>>> logic is >>>>> indeed left up to the application. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure that we've seen much discussion about (2), though >>>>> (sorry if >>>> I >>>>> missed it) -- why is the repeated backoff-and-restart the right >>>>> pacing >>>> for this >>>>> purpose? >>>>> >>>>> -Ben >>>>> >>>>>> I didn't participate in the WG discussion on this, so I don't know >>>>>> what was discussed regarding this issue. If it was discussed and >>>>>> the WG has come to conclusion that this is not an issue, then I >>>>>> believe more text should be added to the draft so, that people >>>>>> like Mirja, who >>>>> didn't participate in the discussion, don't have any concerns while >>>> reading the >>>>> draft. >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Valery. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 9:57 AM >>>>>>> To: Benjamin Kaduk (kaduk@mit.edu) ; dots- >>>>>>> chairs@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org >>>>>>> Subject: Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Ben, chairs, all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (restricting the discussion to the AD/chairs/WG) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> * Status: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All DISCUSS points from Mirja's review were fixed, except the >>>>>>> one discussed in this message. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> * Pending Point: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Rather than going into much details, I consider the following as >>>>>>> the summary of the remaining DISCUSS point from Mirja: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I believe there are flaws in the design. First it’s a layer >>>>>>>> violation, but if more an idealistic concern but usually >>>>>>>> designing in layers is a good approach. But more importantly, >>>>>>>> you end up with un-frequent messages which may still terminate >>>>>>>> the connection at some point, while what you want is to simply >>>>>>>> send messages frequently in an unreliable fashion but a low >>>>>>>> rate until the >>>> attack is over. >>>>>>> * Discussion: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (1) First of all, let's remind that RFC7252 does not define how >>>>>>> CoAP ping must be used. It does only say: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> == >>>>>>> Provoking a Reset >>>>>>> message (e.g., by sending an Empty Confirmable message) is >>>> also >>>>>>> useful as an inexpensive check of the liveness of an >> endpoint >>>>>>> ("CoAP ping"). >>>>>>> == >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How the liveness is assessed is left to applications. So, there >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> ** no layer violation **. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (2) What we need isn't (text from Mirja): >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to simply send messages frequently in an unreliable fashion >>>>>>>> but a low rate until the attack is over " >>>>>>> It is actually the other way around. The spec says: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "... This is particularly useful for DOTS >>>>>>> servers that might want to reduce heartbeat frequency or >> cease >>>>>>> heartbeat exchanges when an active DOTS client has not >> requested >>>>>>> mitigation." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What we want can be formalized as: >>>>>>> - Taking into account DDoS traffic conditions, a check to >>>>>>> assess the liveness of the peer DOTS agent + maintain NAT/FW >>>>>>> state on on- >>>> path >>>>> devices. >>>>>>> An much more elaborated version is documented in SIG-004 of RFC >>>> 8612. >>>>>>> * My analysis: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - The intended functionality is naturally provided by existing >>>>>>> CoAP >>>>> messages. >>>>>>> - Informed WG decision: The WG spent a lot of cycles when >>>>>>> specifying the current behavior to be meet the requirements set >> in >>> RFC8612. >>>>>>> - Why not an alternative design: We can always define messages >>>>>>> with duplicated functionality, but that is not a good design >>>>>>> approach especially when there is no evident benefit. >>>>>>> - The specification is not broken: it was implemented and >> tested. >>>>>>> And a logistic comment: this issue fits IMHO under the >>>>>>> non-discuss criteria in >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/blog/discuss-criteria-iesg- >>>> review/#stand- >>>>> undisc. >>>>>>> * What's Next? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As an editor, I don't think a change is needed but I'd like to >>>>>>> hear from Ben, chairs, and the WG. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please share your thoughts and whether you agree/disagree with >>>>>>> the above analysis. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Med >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Dots mailing list >>>>> Dots@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Tue Jul 23 20:48:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E682B120047 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 20:48:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.589 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.589 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IpuZxD00LrBR for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 20:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta1.chinamobile.com (cmccmta1.chinamobile.com [221.176.66.79]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1C5A120046 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 20:48:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.121.17]) by rmmx-syy-dmz-app02-12002 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee25d37d4f4231-0b881; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:48:05 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee25d37d4f4231-0b881 X-RM-TagInfo: emlType=0 X-RM-SPAM-FLAG: 00000000 Received: from cmcc-PC (unknown[10.2.51.70]) by rmsmtp-syy-appsvr09-12009 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee95d37d4f4763-ccd83; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:48:05 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee95d37d4f4763-ccd83 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:48:08 +0800 From: "Meiling Chen" To: "H Y" , dots References: , , <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACACC9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>, , <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACADB4@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>, <30E95A901DB42F44BA42D69DB20DFA6A69FAD716@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com>, X-Priority: 3 X-Has-Attach: no X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.2.9.115[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2019072411480846560114@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart723202104768_=----" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01: X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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Hi yuuhei,
I= have read your latest draft draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload= -00, I have a question:
In the figure 3, In-band case:&nb= sp;
Attack Time                       | Attack Time      |=0A  |=
             | Method : Signal Channel           | Method : Signal  |=0A  =
|             |          Control Filtering        |          Channel |=0A =
 |             | Info : ACL name                   | Control Filtering|=0A=
  |             |                                   | Info : ACL name
=0Awhat's your mean of ACL name, can you give an example?
if th= e ACL strategy installed, you have to consider the process of uninstall.

during your draft of section 5, you said 
What type of information can=0A   be conveyed by DMS relays on atta=
ck type detected by the DMS:
we also think attack type is = really important, so we want to unify the attack type and this will benefi= t for mitigation coroperation.

Best Regards.
Meiling Chen.
From: H Y
D= ate: 2019-07-21 16:02
Subject: Re: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayash= i-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01:
Hi all,
=0A=
 
=0A
We updated the draft based on comments.
=0A<= div>I replaced the previous draft.
=0A
 
=0A
>Fr= ank, William
=0A
Thank you for reviewing my draft!
=0A
&= nbsp;
=0A
> Med
=0A
Thank you for revising my draft!<= /div>=0A
 
=0A
A new version of I-D, draft-hayashi-dots-= dms-offload-00.txt
=0A
has been successfully submitted by Yuhei H= ayashi and posted to the
=0A
IETF repository.
=0A
 =
=0A
Name:         &= nbsp; draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload
=0A
Revision:  &nb= sp;    00
=0A
Title:     =      DDoS Mitigation Offload: DOTS Applicability and=0A
Deployment Considerations
=0A
Document date:  20= 19-07-20
=0A
Group:       &nbs= p;  Individual Submission
=0A
Pages:    =       20
=0A
URL:
=0A
https://w= ww.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-00.txt
=0A=
Status:         https://datat= racker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload/
=0A
Htmlized:=        https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hay= ashi-dots-dms-offload-00
=0A
Htmlized:
=0A
https://datat= racker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload
=0A
 = ;
=0A
 
=0A
Abstract:
=0A
   Thi= s document describes a deployment scenario to assess the
=0A
&nbs= p;  applicability of DOTS protocols together with a discussion on DOT= S
=0A
   deployment considerations of such scenario.&nb= sp; This scenario assumes
=0A
   that a DMS (DDoS Mitig= ation System) whose utilization rate is high
=0A
   sen= ds its blocked traffic information to an orchestrator using DOTS
=0A<= div>   protocols, then the orchestrator requests forwarding node= s such as
=0A
   routers to filter the traffic.  D= oing so enables service providers to
=0A
   mitigate th= e DDoS attack traffic automatically while ensuring
=0A
 &nbs= p; interoperability and distributed filter enforcement.
=0A
 = ;
=0A
 
=0A
 
=0A
 
=0APlease note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion
=0A
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tool= s.ietf.org.
=0A
 
=0A
The IETF Secretariat
=0A=
 
=0A
2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 2:4= 1 Panwei (William) <william.panwei@huawei.com>:
=0A
>=0A
> Hi Med,
=0A
>
=0A
> > [Med] The= text may not be clear. It should be fixed: the intent is to use the
= =0A
> > src-* attributes defined in the call-home, not the call-= home functionality.
=0A
>
=0A
> This is also my co= nfusion when I read the draft, it's good to be fixed.
=0A
>=0A
> Regards & Thanks!
=0A
> =E6=BD=98=E4=BC=9F= Wei Pan
=0A
> =E5=8D=8E=E4=B8=BA=E6=8A=80=E6=9C=AF=E6=9C=89= =E9=99=90=E5=85=AC=E5=8F=B8 Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd.
=0A
>= ;
=0A
> > -----Original Message-----
=0A
> >= From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
=0A
> = > mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
=0A
> > Sent: Friday, Jul= y 12, 2019 2:28 PM
=0A
> > To: Xialiang (Frank, Network Sta= ndard & Patent Dept)
=0A
> > <frank.xialiang@huawei.= com>; H Y <yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com>
=0A
> > Cc: d= raft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.org; Valery
=0A> > Smyslov <valery@smyslov.net>; dots@ietf.org; neshi-nwsec= -p-
=0A
> > ml@hco.ntt.co.jp
=0A
> > Subject= : Re: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-dots-dms-
=0A<= div>> > offload-usecase-01:
=0A
> >
=0A
>= > Re-,
=0A
> >
=0A
> > Please see inline= .
=0A
> >
=0A
> > Cheers,
=0A
> = > Med
=0A
> >
=0A
> > > -----Message d= 'origine-----
=0A
> > > De : Xialiang (Frank, Network St= andard & Patent Dept)
=0A
> > > [mailto:frank.xialia= ng@huawei.com]
=0A
> > > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 12 juill= et 2019 08:20 =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed
=0A
> > TGI/OLN;=0A
> > > H Y Cc : draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase= .authors@ietf.org;
=0A
> > > Valery Smyslov; dots@ietf.o= rg; neshi-nwsec-p-ml@hco.ntt.co.jp Objet :
=0A
> > > =E7= =AD=94=E5=A4=8D: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-dots-dms= -
=0A
> > > offload-usecase-01:
=0A
> > &= gt;
=0A
> > > Hi Med,
=0A
> > > I unde= rstand your intention more now.
=0A
> > > As the chairs,= we prefer to hear more to help us consider how to deal
=0A
> = > > with this draft.
=0A
> > >
=0A
> &= gt; > See inline:
=0A
> > >
=0A
> > &g= t; Thank you!
=0A
> > >
=0A
> > > B.R.=
=0A
> > > Frank
=0A
> > >
=0A> > > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6-----
=0A> > > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: mohamed.boucadair@orange.co= m
=0A
> > > [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com]
= =0A
> > > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B4= 7=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5 13:38
=0A
> > > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6= =E4=BA=BA: H Y <yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com>; Xialiang (Frank, Network<= /div>=0A
> > Standard
=0A
> > > & Patent D= ept) <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>
=0A
> > > =E6=8A= =84=E9=80=81: draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.org; Val= ery
=0A
> > > Smyslov <valery@smyslov.net>; dots@i= etf.org; neshi-nwsec-p-
=0A
> > > ml@hco.ntt.co.jp
= =0A
> > > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: RE: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 quest= ions on draft-hayashi-dots-dms-
=0A
> > > offload-usecas= e-01:
=0A
> > >
=0A
> > > Franck,=0A
> > >
=0A
> > > An important contribut= ion from this draft is to assess to what extent
=0A
> > >= ; current DOTS specs can be applied in a particular deployment context=0A
> > > and there is no void, while the use case draft wa= s done to drive the
=0A
> > > specification.
=0A> > >
=0A
> > > There is IMO a need for an ef= fort to socialize DOTS and exemplify how
=0A
> > > it ca= n be used in various deployment contexts. This draft is a
=0A
>= ; > > contribution in that aim.
=0A
> > >
=0A=
> > > BTW, I'm not sure to understand this comment:
=0A=
> > >
=0A
> > > > And be careful using = signal channel call home for your use case,
=0A
> > > &g= t; since
=0A
> > > it is a special mechanism for near so= urce attack mitigation with DOTS
=0A
> > > server create= TLS connection with DOTS client, which I don=E2=80=99t think
=0A> > > it=E2=80=99s very suitable for your case.
=0A
>= ; > >
=0A
> > > The intent is to use the src-* sig= nal channel extensions. I don't see
=0A
> > > any issue = in doing that.
=0A
> > >
=0A
> > > [Fr= ank]: I mean DOTS signal channel is ok for this use case, no need
=0A=
> > > to use call home signal channel. And the call home sig= nal channel's
=0A
> > > interaction way is not appropria= te for this case too.
=0A
> > >
=0A
> >=0A
> >
=0A
> > > Thank you.
=0A
= > > >
=0A
> > > Cheers,
=0A
> > = > Med
=0A
> > >
=0A
> > > > ----= -Message d'origine-----
=0A
> > > > De : H Y [mailto:= yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com] Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 12
=0A
> >= > > juillet 2019 07:00 =C3=80 : Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard &= amp; Patent
=0A
> > > > Dept) Cc : draft-hayashi-dots= -dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.org;
=0A
> > > > Va= lery Smyslov; dots@ietf.org; neshi-nwsec-p-ml@hco.ntt.co.jp Objet :
= =0A
> > > > Re: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-h= ayashi-dots-dms-
=0A
> > > > offload-usecase-01:=0A
> > > >
=0A
> > > > Hi Frank,=0A
> > > >
=0A
> > > > Thank you = for reviewing my draft :-) Please see inline.
=0A
> > > = >
=0A
> > > > > 1.  I see your proposed of= fload use case as an variant of DOTS
=0A
> > > > Orch= estration use case (section 3.3 of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18).
=0A=
> > > > [hayashi]Yes, that's right.
=0A
> >= ; > >
=0A
> > > > > If so, what is your prop= ose for this part of content? Do you want
=0A
> > > >= > to
=0A
> > > > improve the existing DOTS use ca= ses WG draft with your addition?
=0A
> > > > [hayashi= ]Yes, I want to add our use case to improve the DOTS
=0A
> >= ; > > orchestration use cases.
=0A
> > > > Abou= t the DOTS orchestration use case in current use cases WG draft,
=0A<= div>> > > > DMS doesn't have DOTS client function.
=0A> > > > IMO, it's effective that DMSs send blocked informati= on to an
=0A
> > > > orchestrator via standardized IF= and the orchestrator carries out
=0A
> > > > some ac= tion in the network.
=0A
> > > >
=0A
> &g= t; > > At IETF 104, I proposed to add our use case to improve the DO= TS
=0A
> > > > orchestration use cases, however, I co= uld not do it because the use
=0A
> > > > case WG dra= ft now is in Publication Requested status.
=0A
> > > >= ; Some people gave me the advice to include DOTS deployment
=0A
&= gt; > > > consideration to my draft, so I update my draft based o= n the
=0A
> > comments.
=0A
> > > >=0A
> > > > Please see IETF104 minute
=0A
>= > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-104-
=0A> > > > dots/
=0A
> > > >
=0A
&= gt; > > > > 2.      Right now, DOTS p= rotocol defines sending DOTS request via
=0A
> > > signa= l
=0A
> > > > channel, do you propose to send it via = data channel in some situation?
=0A
> > > > If so, I = personally disagree with it, since we originally define
=0A
> = > > > signal channel and data channel for different functionaliti= es &
=0A
> > > > messages, we can not send any DO= TS messages over wrong channel,
=0A
> > like:
=0A
= > > > > DOTS request via data channel.
=0A
> > = > > [hayashi] After I submitted
=0A
> > > > dra= ft-h-dots-mitigation-offload-expansion-00,  some people gave me
= =0A
> > > > comments not to use signal channel but to use = data channel via
=0A
> > > > out-of band because link= b/w the DMS and Orchestrator won't be
=0A
> > > > co= ngested under attack time.
=0A
> > > >
=0A
&= gt; > > > Please see the mail thread [Dots]
=0A
> >= ; > > draft-h-dots-mitigation-offload-expansion-00: Reasons why we w= ant
=0A
> > to
=0A
> > > > standardize= between DMS and orchestrator using DOTS
=0A
> > > ><= /div>=0A
> > > > Current data channel has the capability t= o send filtering rules
=0A
> > > > immediately, so I = think it can be used to send blocked information
=0A
> > &g= t; > from DMS to Orchestrator.
=0A
> > > > If the = signal channel has the capability to convey the attacker's
=0A
&g= t; > > > information, the signal channel can be also used to send= it to form
=0A
> > > > DMS to Orchestrator.
=0A=
> > > >
=0A
> > > > > 3. &nb= sp;    In addition to extended offload use case content, I = do not see
=0A
> > > > any new protocol, message or a= ttribute extension comparing to the
=0A
> > > > exist= ing defined DOTS protocols, the left content are just some
=0A
&g= t; > > > examples about how you use the existing DOTS protocol fo= r your
=0A
> > > > offload use case. So, what do you = want DOTS WG to do for this draft,
=0A
> > > > since = there
=0A
> > > are no new thing here?
=0A
>= > > > [hayashi] This draft requires that ...
=0A
> &= gt; > > - It's effective that DMS have DOTS client function in DOTS<= /div>=0A
> > > > orchestration use case.
=0A
>= > > > - It's effective that signal channel has the capability to= send src
=0A
> > > > information.
=0A
> = > > > For example, it's useful and feasible to send src port info= rmation
=0A
> > > > via the DOTS signal channel to re= quest mitigation against reflection
=0A
> > > > attac= k.
=0A
> > > >
=0A
> > > > > = And be careful using signal channel call home for your use case,
=0A<= div>> > > > > since
=0A
> > > > it is = a special mechanism for near source attack mitigation with
=0A
&g= t; > > > DOTS server create TLS connection with DOTS client, whic= h I don=E2=80=99t
=0A
> > > > think it=E2=80=99s very= suitable for your case.
=0A
> > > > Thank you for gi= ving me comments. Could I define another signal
=0A
> > >= ; > channel expansion to send src information via signal channel?
= =0A
> > > >
=0A
> > > > Thanks,
= =0A
> > > > Yuhei
=0A
> > > >
= =0A
> > > > 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) = 12:10 Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard &
=0A
> > Paten= t Dept)
=0A
> > > > <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>= :
=0A
> > > > >
=0A
> > > > &= gt; Hi authors,
=0A
> > > > >
=0A
> &g= t; > > > I have reviewed this new version and have 3 questions as= below:
=0A
> > > > >
=0A
> > > = > > 1.      I see your proposed offload use= case as an variant of DOTS
=0A
> > > > Orchestration= use case (section 3.3 of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18).
=0A
>= > > > If so, what is your propose for this part of content? Do y= ou want to
=0A
> > > > improve the existing DOTS use = cases WG draft with your addition?
=0A
> > > > >=0A
> > > > > 2.      Righ= t now, DOTS protocol defines sending DOTS request via
=0A
> &g= t; > signal
=0A
> > > > channel, do you propose to= send it via data channel in some situation?
=0A
> > > &= gt; If so, I personally disagree with it, since we originally define
= =0A
> > > > signal channel and data channel for different = functionalities &
=0A
> > > > messages, we can no= t send any DOTS messages over wrong channel,
=0A
> > like:<= /div>=0A
> > > > DOTS request via data channel.
=0A> > > > >
=0A
> > > > > 3. =      In addition to extended offload use case content,= I do not see
=0A
> > > > any new protocol, message o= r attribute extension comparing to the
=0A
> > > > ex= isting defined DOTS protocols, the left content are just some
=0A> > > > examples about how you use the existing DOTS protocol= for your
=0A
> > > > offload use case. So, what do y= ou want DOTS WG to do for this draft,
=0A
> > > > sin= ce there
=0A
> > > are no new thing here?
=0A
&= gt; > > > And be careful using signal channel call home for your = use case,
=0A
> > > > since it is a special mechanism= for near source attack mitigation
=0A
> > > > with D= OTS server create TLS connection with DOTS client, which I
=0A
&g= t; > > > don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s very suitable for your = case.
=0A
> > > > >
=0A
> > > &g= t; >
=0A
> > > > >
=0A
> > > = > > Thanks!
=0A
> > > > >
=0A
> = > > > >
=0A
> > > > >
=0A
>= ; > > > > B.R.
=0A
> > > > >
=0A<= div>> > > > > Frank
=0A
> > > > >=0A
> > > > >
=0A
> > > > >=
=0A
> > > > > ___________________________________= ____________
=0A
> > > > > Dots mailing list
= =0A
> > > > > Dots@ietf.org
=0A
> > >= > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
=0A
> &g= t; > >
=0A
> > > >
=0A
> > > = >
=0A
> > > > --
=0A
> > > > = ----------------------------------
=0A
> > > > Yuuhei= HAYASHI
=0A
> > > > 08065300884
=0A
> &g= t; > > yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com
=0A
> > > > ieh= uuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp
=0A
> > > > -------------------= ---------------
=0A
> > ___________________________________= ____________
=0A
> > Dots mailing list
=0A
> &g= t; Dots@ietf.org
=0A
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi= nfo/dots
=0A
 
=0A
 
=0A
 
= =0A
--
=0A
----------------------------------
=0A
Y= uuhei HAYASHI
=0A
08065300884
=0A
yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.c= om
=0A
iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp
=0A
--------------------= --------------
=0A
 
=0A
__________________________= _____________________
=0A
Dots mailing list
=0A
Dots@iet= f.org
=0A
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
=0A
------=_001_NextPart723202104768_=------ From nobody Wed Jul 24 01:58:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietf.org Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67801120044; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 01:58:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: dots@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.99.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dots@ietf.org Message-ID: <156395868830.14494.2780998194145188435@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 01:58:08 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-36.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 08:58:09 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IETF. Title : Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy Mohamed Boucadair Prashanth Patil Andrew Mortensen Nik Teague Filename : draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-36.txt Pages : 106 Date : 2019-07-24 Abstract: This document specifies the DOTS signal channel, a protocol for signaling the need for protection against Distributed Denial-of- Service (DDoS) attacks to a server capable of enabling network traffic mitigation on behalf of the requesting client. A companion document defines the DOTS data channel, a separate reliable communication layer for DOTS management and configuration purposes. Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor) Please update these statements within the document with the RFC number to be assigned to this document: o "This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX;" o "RFC XXXX: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification"; o "| [RFCXXXX] |" o reference: RFC XXXX Please update this statement with the RFC number to be assigned to the following documents: o "RFC YYYY: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Data Channel Specification (used to be I-D.ietf-dots-data- channel) Please update TBD/TBD1/TBD2 statements with the assignments made by IANA to DOTS Signal Channel Protocol. Also, please update the "revision" date of the YANG modules. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-36 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-36 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-36 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Jul 24 02:07:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1673D120124 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 02:07:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LyFE4dQWy3OP for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 02:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40BA6120114 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 02:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar04.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.6]) by opfedar22.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45tqHn5NRjz2xQ1 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:07:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.101]) by opfedar04.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45tqHn4Ygzz1xnn for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:07:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM6F.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:07:49 +0200 From: To: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-36.txt Thread-Index: AQHVQf3vMnDEssovZUSWprMYlNzF7qbZeQ3w Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:07:49 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E718E@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <156395868830.14494.2780998194145188435@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <156395868830.14494.2780998194145188435@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-36.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:07:54 -0000 Hi all,=20 This version includes changes to clarify some points raised in recent threa= ds, mainly: (1) Add text to recall that the retransmission parameters do not apply for = TCP. This addresses a comment from Valery. (2) Add examples to illustrate the flexibility of the retry configuration o= ffered by the protocol. This is intended to clarify a comment raised by Ben= .=20 Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de internet- > drafts@ietf.org > Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 24 juillet 2019 10:58 > =C0=A0: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc=A0: dots@ietf.org > Objet=A0: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-36.txt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the > IETF. >=20 > Title : Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat > Signaling (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification > Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy > Mohamed Boucadair > Prashanth Patil > Andrew Mortensen > Nik Teague > Filename : draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-36.txt > Pages : 106 > Date : 2019-07-24 >=20 > Abstract: > This document specifies the DOTS signal channel, a protocol for > signaling the need for protection against Distributed Denial-of- > Service (DDoS) attacks to a server capable of enabling network > traffic mitigation on behalf of the requesting client. >=20 > A companion document defines the DOTS data channel, a separate > reliable communication layer for DOTS management and configuration > purposes. >=20 > Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor) >=20 > Please update these statements within the document with the RFC > number to be assigned to this document: >=20 > o "This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX;" >=20 > o "RFC XXXX: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling > (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification"; >=20 > o "| [RFCXXXX] |" >=20 > o reference: RFC XXXX >=20 > Please update this statement with the RFC number to be assigned to > the following documents: >=20 > o "RFC YYYY: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling > (DOTS) Data Channel Specification (used to be I-D.ietf-dots-data- > channel) >=20 > Please update TBD/TBD1/TBD2 statements with the assignments made by > IANA to DOTS Signal Channel Protocol. >=20 > Also, please update the "revision" date of the YANG modules. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel/ >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-36 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-36 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-36 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Wed Jul 24 02:53:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 428561200D7 for ; 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Wed, 24 Jul 2019 02:53:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACACC9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EACADB4@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <30E95A901DB42F44BA42D69DB20DFA6A69FAD716@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com> <2019072411480846560114@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: <2019072411480846560114@chinamobile.com> From: H Y Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 05:58:15 -0400 Message-ID: To: Meiling Chen , dots Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase-01: X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:53:42 -0000 Hi Meiling, Thank you for reading my draft. Please see inline. > what's your mean of ACL name, can you give an example? [hayashi] The example is written in 5.2.3. Data Channel and Signal Channel Controlling Filtering. The strategy is that the DOTS client registers ACL against well-known attack to DOTS server in peace time, and the DOTS client under attack activates the ACL using control-filtering based on a detection result of DMS. > if the ACL strategy installed, you have to consider the process of uninst= all. [hayashi] Thank you for comments. I will consider it. > we also think attack type is really important, so we want to unify the at= tack type and this will benefit for mitigation coroperation. [hayashi] If the orchestrator just has to filter attack at routers to offload DMS after receiving mitigation request from the DMS, attack type is not needed. However, if the orchestrator has to carry out optimized action based on attack type, the attack type is important attribute. For example... - Filtering attack traffic at router against L3-L4 attack. - Steering attack traffic to security appliance against L7 attack. I would like to discuss it. Thanks, Yuhei 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8823=E6=97=A5(=E7=81=AB) 23:48 Meiling Chen : > > Hi yuuhei, > I have read your latest draft draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-00, I have a= question: > In the figure 3, In-band case: > > Attack Time | Attack Time | > | | Method : Signal Channel | Method : Signal | > | | Control Filtering | Channel | > | | Info : ACL name | Control Filtering| > | | | Info : ACL name > > what's your mean of ACL name, can you give an example? > if the ACL strategy installed, you have to consider the process of uninst= all. > > during your draft of section 5, you said > > What type of information can > be conveyed by DMS relays on attack type detected by the DMS: > > we also think attack type is really important, so we want to unify the at= tack type and this will benefit for mitigation coroperation. > > Best Regards. > Meiling Chen. > > From: H Y > Date: 2019-07-21 16:02 > To: dots@ietf.org > CC: draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.org; neshi-nwsec-= p-ml@hco.ntt.co.jp > Subject: Re: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-dots-dms-of= fload-usecase-01: > Hi all, > > We updated the draft based on comments. > I replaced the previous draft. > > >Frank, William > Thank you for reviewing my draft! > > > Med > Thank you for revising my draft! > > A new version of I-D, draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Yuhei Hayashi and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload > Revision: 00 > Title: DDoS Mitigation Offload: DOTS Applicability and > Deployment Considerations > Document date: 2019-07-20 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 20 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-00.tx= t > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hayashi-dots-dms-o= ffload/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offloa= d-00 > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload > > > Abstract: > This document describes a deployment scenario to assess the > applicability of DOTS protocols together with a discussion on DOTS > deployment considerations of such scenario. This scenario assumes > that a DMS (DDoS Mitigation System) whose utilization rate is high > sends its blocked traffic information to an orchestrator using DOTS > protocols, then the orchestrator requests forwarding nodes such as > routers to filter the traffic. Doing so enables service providers to > mitigate the DDoS attack traffic automatically while ensuring > interoperability and distributed filter enforcement. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > > 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 2:41 Panwei (William) : > > > > Hi Med, > > > > > [Med] The text may not be clear. It should be fixed: the intent is to= use the > > > src-* attributes defined in the call-home, not the call-home function= ality. > > > > This is also my confusion when I read the draft, it's good to be fixed. > > > > Regards & Thanks! > > =E6=BD=98=E4=BC=9F Wei Pan > > =E5=8D=8E=E4=B8=BA=E6=8A=80=E6=9C=AF=E6=9C=89=E9=99=90=E5=85=AC=E5=8F= =B8 Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > > > mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > > > Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 2:28 PM > > > To: Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept) > > > ; H Y > > > Cc: draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.org; Valery > > > Smyslov ; dots@ietf.org; neshi-nwsec-p- > > > ml@hco.ntt.co.jp > > > Subject: Re: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-dots-dm= s- > > > offload-usecase-01: > > > > > > Re-, > > > > > > Please see inline. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Med > > > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > > De : Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept) > > > > [mailto:frank.xialiang@huawei.com] > > > > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 12 juillet 2019 08:20 =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Moh= amed > > > TGI/OLN; > > > > H Y Cc : draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.org; > > > > Valery Smyslov; dots@ietf.org; neshi-nwsec-p-ml@hco.ntt.co.jp Objet= : > > > > =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayash= i-dots-dms- > > > > offload-usecase-01: > > > > > > > > Hi Med, > > > > I understand your intention more now. > > > > As the chairs, we prefer to hear more to help us consider how to de= al > > > > with this draft. > > > > > > > > See inline: > > > > > > > > Thank you! > > > > > > > > B.R. > > > > Frank > > > > > > > > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > > > > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > > > > [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] > > > > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6= =97=A5 13:38 > > > > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: H Y ; Xialia= ng (Frank, Network > > > Standard > > > > & Patent Dept) > > > > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@= ietf.org; Valery > > > > Smyslov ; dots@ietf.org; neshi-nwsec-p- > > > > ml@hco.ntt.co.jp > > > > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: RE: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-ha= yashi-dots-dms- > > > > offload-usecase-01: > > > > > > > > Franck, > > > > > > > > An important contribution from this draft is to assess to what exte= nt > > > > current DOTS specs can be applied in a particular deployment contex= t > > > > and there is no void, while the use case draft was done to drive th= e > > > > specification. > > > > > > > > There is IMO a need for an effort to socialize DOTS and exemplify h= ow > > > > it can be used in various deployment contexts. This draft is a > > > > contribution in that aim. > > > > > > > > BTW, I'm not sure to understand this comment: > > > > > > > > > And be careful using signal channel call home for your use case, > > > > > since > > > > it is a special mechanism for near source attack mitigation with DO= TS > > > > server create TLS connection with DOTS client, which I don=E2=80=99= t think > > > > it=E2=80=99s very suitable for your case. > > > > > > > > The intent is to use the src-* signal channel extensions. I don't s= ee > > > > any issue in doing that. > > > > > > > > [Frank]: I mean DOTS signal channel is ok for this use case, no nee= d > > > > to use call home signal channel. And the call home signal channel's > > > > interaction way is not appropriate for this case too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Med > > > > > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > > > De : H Y [mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com] Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi= 12 > > > > > juillet 2019 07:00 =C3=80 : Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & P= atent > > > > > Dept) Cc : draft-hayashi-dots-dms-offload-usecase.authors@ietf.or= g; > > > > > Valery Smyslov; dots@ietf.org; neshi-nwsec-p-ml@hco.ntt.co.jp Obj= et : > > > > > Re: [Dots] Hi, authors, 3 questions on draft-hayashi-dots-dms- > > > > > offload-usecase-01: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for reviewing my draft :-) Please see inline. > > > > > > > > > > > 1. I see your proposed offload use case as an variant of DOTS > > > > > Orchestration use case (section 3.3 of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-= 18). > > > > > [hayashi]Yes, that's right. > > > > > > > > > > > If so, what is your propose for this part of content? Do you wa= nt > > > > > > to > > > > > improve the existing DOTS use cases WG draft with your addition? > > > > > [hayashi]Yes, I want to add our use case to improve the DOTS > > > > > orchestration use cases. > > > > > About the DOTS orchestration use case in current use cases WG dra= ft, > > > > > DMS doesn't have DOTS client function. > > > > > IMO, it's effective that DMSs send blocked information to an > > > > > orchestrator via standardized IF and the orchestrator carries out > > > > > some action in the network. > > > > > > > > > > At IETF 104, I proposed to add our use case to improve the DOTS > > > > > orchestration use cases, however, I could not do it because the u= se > > > > > case WG draft now is in Publication Requested status. > > > > > Some people gave me the advice to include DOTS deployment > > > > > consideration to my draft, so I update my draft based on the > > > comments. > > > > > > > > > > Please see IETF104 minute > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-104- > > > > > dots/ > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Right now, DOTS protocol defines sending DOTS request v= ia > > > > signal > > > > > channel, do you propose to send it via data channel in some situa= tion? > > > > > If so, I personally disagree with it, since we originally define > > > > > signal channel and data channel for different functionalities & > > > > > messages, we can not send any DOTS messages over wrong channel, > > > like: > > > > > DOTS request via data channel. > > > > > [hayashi] After I submitted > > > > > draft-h-dots-mitigation-offload-expansion-00, some people gave m= e > > > > > comments not to use signal channel but to use data channel via > > > > > out-of band because link b/w the DMS and Orchestrator won't be > > > > > congested under attack time. > > > > > > > > > > Please see the mail thread [Dots] > > > > > draft-h-dots-mitigation-offload-expansion-00: Reasons why we want > > > to > > > > > standardize between DMS and orchestrator using DOTS > > > > > > > > > > Current data channel has the capability to send filtering rules > > > > > immediately, so I think it can be used to send blocked informatio= n > > > > > from DMS to Orchestrator. > > > > > If the signal channel has the capability to convey the attacker's > > > > > information, the signal channel can be also used to send it to fo= rm > > > > > DMS to Orchestrator. > > > > > > > > > > > 3. In addition to extended offload use case content, I do = not see > > > > > any new protocol, message or attribute extension comparing to the > > > > > existing defined DOTS protocols, the left content are just some > > > > > examples about how you use the existing DOTS protocol for your > > > > > offload use case. So, what do you want DOTS WG to do for this dra= ft, > > > > > since there > > > > are no new thing here? > > > > > [hayashi] This draft requires that ... > > > > > - It's effective that DMS have DOTS client function in DOTS > > > > > orchestration use case. > > > > > - It's effective that signal channel has the capability to send s= rc > > > > > information. > > > > > For example, it's useful and feasible to send src port informatio= n > > > > > via the DOTS signal channel to request mitigation against reflect= ion > > > > > attack. > > > > > > > > > > > And be careful using signal channel call home for your use case= , > > > > > > since > > > > > it is a special mechanism for near source attack mitigation with > > > > > DOTS server create TLS connection with DOTS client, which I don= =E2=80=99t > > > > > think it=E2=80=99s very suitable for your case. > > > > > Thank you for giving me comments. Could I define another signal > > > > > channel expansion to send src information via signal channel? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Yuhei > > > > > > > > > > 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 12:10 Xialiang (Fra= nk, Network Standard & > > > Patent Dept) > > > > > : > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi authors, > > > > > > > > > > > > I have reviewed this new version and have 3 questions as below: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. I see your proposed offload use case as an variant of D= OTS > > > > > Orchestration use case (section 3.3 of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-= 18). > > > > > If so, what is your propose for this part of content? Do you want= to > > > > > improve the existing DOTS use cases WG draft with your addition? > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Right now, DOTS protocol defines sending DOTS request v= ia > > > > signal > > > > > channel, do you propose to send it via data channel in some situa= tion? > > > > > If so, I personally disagree with it, since we originally define > > > > > signal channel and data channel for different functionalities & > > > > > messages, we can not send any DOTS messages over wrong channel, > > > like: > > > > > DOTS request via data channel. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. In addition to extended offload use case content, I do = not see > > > > > any new protocol, message or attribute extension comparing to the > > > > > existing defined DOTS protocols, the left content are just some > > > > > examples about how you use the existing DOTS protocol for your > > > > > offload use case. So, what do you want DOTS WG to do for this dra= ft, > > > > > since there > > > > are no new thing here? > > > > > And be careful using signal channel call home for your use case, > > > > > since it is a special mechanism for near source attack mitigation > > > > > with DOTS server create TLS connection with DOTS client, which I > > > > > don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s very suitable for your case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > B.R. > > > > > > > > > > > > Frank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Dots mailing list > > > > > > Dots@ietf.org > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > ---------------------------------- > > > > > Yuuhei HAYASHI > > > > > 08065300884 > > > > > yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com > > > > > iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp > > > > > ---------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Dots mailing list > > > Dots@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > > > -- > ---------------------------------- > Yuuhei HAYASHI > 08065300884 > yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com > iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp > ---------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots --=20 ---------------------------------- Yuuhei HAYASHI 08065300884 yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp ---------------------------------- From nobody Wed Jul 24 05:18:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 553611201CB for ; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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+0000 From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" To: kaname nishizuka , Jon Shallow , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHVMzSMCPbrTboVdUKfxcuyXDvZxqbWuDsAgAAPDoCAAA1WgIABCZCQgAAtq4CAADI8gIABj4hA Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 12:23:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: <156233245922.21720.2303446065970922340.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <9401a258-5a32-b612-450b-10d3452777ac@nttv6.jp> <0db301d54139$220ee340$662ca9c0$@jpshallow.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.3.0.16 dlp-reaction: no-action x-originating-ip: [185.221.69.46] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: d2158079-deb2-449b-3e27-08d71031c66b x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; 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--_000_DM5PR16MB17053CF1CDCE9A88F86388EBEAC60DM5PR16MB1705namp_-- From nobody Wed Jul 24 05:32:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 993741200D8 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 05:32:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qc5sGH4jGH1z for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 05:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E65801200C4 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 05:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar07.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.9]) by opfedar21.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45tvqZ4cJCz7txZ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 14:32:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.79]) by opfedar07.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45tvqZ2F54z5vPT; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 14:32:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM6E.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 14:32:10 +0200 From: To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , H Y , tirumal reddy CC: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHVMzOPnOaVrHF+zEGZ3qoxuOmz7qbYNT+AgAGVHKCAAAOKIA== Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 12:32:09 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E739F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <156233245922.21720.2303446065970922340.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiA+IERvdHMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+ID4gRG90c0BpZXRm Lm9yZw0KPiA+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZG90cw0KPiBf X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBEb3RzIG1h aWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBEb3RzQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxt YW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZG90cw0K From nobody Wed Jul 24 05:40:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67B9C1201E3 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 05:40:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.587 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.587 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Epf3V3nadoVY for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 05:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2FD981201E0 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 05:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar07.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.9]) by opfedar26.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45tw1W4KkzzFpwK; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 14:40:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.89]) by opfedar07.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45tw1W3C0Sz5vNw; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 14:40:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM44.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 14:40:47 +0200 From: To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "kaname nishizuka" , Jon Shallow , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHVMzOPnOaVrHF+zEGZ3qoxuOmz7qbWuDsAgAAPDoCAAA1WgIABCZCQgAAtq4CAADI8gIABj4hAgAAFFcA= Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 12:40:46 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E73C8@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <156233245922.21720.2303446065970922340.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <9401a258-5a32-b612-450b-10d3452777ac@nttv6.jp> <0db301d54139$220ee340$662ca9c0$@jpshallow.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E73C8OPEXCAUBMA2corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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+0000 From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , H Y , tirumal reddy CC: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHVMzSMCPbrTboVdUKfxcuyXDvZxqbYNT+AgAGVHKCAAAbagIAAAf6Q Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 12:44:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <156233245922.21720.2303446065970922340.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E739F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E739F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.3.0.16 dlp-reaction: no-action x-originating-ip: [185.221.69.46] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 4cebe003-f7f0-4554-b5b3-08d71034ad45 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; 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qA8eI5JDKn+7zK8ADRDHjO3lZR1QWnKr0/xWXRmb3LpAgJIHmVjbjiU4O77gQRpql+HCLnZvpkK4GAdLkZNZ42UubqAQYpH9oHzDCoelToOcx9CvQW7CMeXs7bcT4J9gur81dbkfVevlU3y06GsKYX0fP/45NKeiAb3QIvXzBuFc9+5bCZjwZ8POSXJcbj58jKpbliQna5tAm5lhIJ+0+cRHGFJPKNY+juZaQ11wQyCgJ/2V9vOpIg9wk2zk0+xHK2mwvJkYF5zCeHItCwDZCU0kuGhmHOozVYSHmMhGccykvyib4cD9tW/Hn6MxHbK+NGDw6u4u4tyY4U7du1/uc/jI/krlygK3jNFmPkWqbhTgeoSh1JFXtKvgq4Md8UxuRw3tlpMu2JlXefS3LQsXponNRTUHDrxo0MVQ3SnxWsY= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4cebe003-f7f0-4554-b5b3-08d71034ad45 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 24 Jul 2019 12:44:32.5723 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4943e38c-6dd4-428c-886d-24932bc2d5de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR16MB1641 X-OriginatorOrg: mcafee.com X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 15 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0.2 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9418 : core <6597> : inlines <7125> : streams <1828284> : uri <2871864> X-MC-Unique: cOflEz6aP_-HJY0F5fpHag-1 X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF7481200C1 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 05:56:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WmuxFFsYbfeZ for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 05:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8DDC120058 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 05:56:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar07.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.9]) by opfedar22.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45twMv64Vtz2y3T; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 14:56:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.35]) by opfedar07.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45twMv4sF0z5vP8; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 14:56:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM6C.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 14:56:43 +0200 From: To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , H Y , tirumal reddy CC: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHVMzOPnOaVrHF+zEGZ3qoxuOmz7qbYNT+AgAGVHKCAAAbagIAAAf6QgAABsBA= Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 12:56:42 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E73FA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <156233245922.21720.2303446065970922340.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E739F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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LS0tLS0tLS0NCj4gPiA+ID4NCj4gPiA+ID4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gPiA+ID4gRG90cyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gPiA+ID4gRG90 c0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiA+ID4gPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZv L2RvdHMNCj4gPiA+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fDQo+ID4gPiBEb3RzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiA+ID4gRG90c0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiA+ID4g aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9kb3RzDQo= From nobody Wed Jul 24 06:19:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18E531201E0 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:19:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nttv6.jp Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EbBdwu00ngHt for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:19:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from guri.nttv6.jp (guri.nttv6.jp [115.69.228.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC7B91201E6 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z.nttv6.jp (z.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:6::f]) by guri.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id E3A6B25F6B8; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 22:19:42 +0900 (JST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nttv6.jp; s=20180820; t=1563974383; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=MaNCHPChQe2gDhCBF+Yz46f2AMmjaXnkUcc3U4dMz18=; b=DlulyksgedCDUl+H8z4mtNv4tAfrdWrC9wP5YF4TauF3HkvLcAV0R64Xj0m0x0smuArYid LGDZeCkpDUVGAodvLwnBtsyvz6HcJ7tCVdSJAGjFAWP+WL8J6wxgNLqSRQmeQX6uqyXAOU xBA8OIg03qg1jl9NjzlLRT0UZzc4wKA= Received: from MacBook-Pro-17.local (fujiko.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:136::141]) by z.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 1F9EF759075; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 22:19:41 +0900 (JST) To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , Jon Shallow , "dots@ietf.org" References: <156233245922.21720.2303446065970922340.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <9401a258-5a32-b612-450b-10d3452777ac@nttv6.jp> <0db301d54139$220ee340$662ca9c0$@jpshallow.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E73C8@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: kaname nishizuka Message-ID: <2a6630dd-11f2-be5e-92ab-5cac14cf80a9@nttv6.jp> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 22:19:40 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E73C8@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------BA566DBB857B8A219DC0B84D" Content-Language: en-US Authentication-Results: guri.nttv6.jp; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=kaname@nttv6.jp Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:19:47 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BA566DBB857B8A219DC0B84D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That's good to know. I prefer this direction. thanks, Kaname On 2019/07/24 21:40, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > > Indeed. > > This is one of the discuss points in Section 4.1 of the draft: > >      “check if we can define a dedicated URI for telemetry (e.g.: use > > ./telemetry).  Some of the information is not specific to each > > mitigation request." > > Cheers, > > Med > > *De :*Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy > *Envoyé :* mercredi 24 juillet 2019 14:24 > *À :* kaname nishizuka; Jon Shallow; dots@ietf.org > *Objet :* Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt > > Is it down to the client doing a periodic poll of a (potentially new) resource? > > [kaname]It could be one solution, however I'd like to seek a way with push notification. > > Alternatively Observe can be used to send unsolicited notifications of pre-mitigation DOTS Telemetry Attributesfor a new resource (e.g. /telemetry for targets in the victim’s network). > > Cheers, > > -Tiru > --------------BA566DBB857B8A219DC0B84D Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That's good to know.
I prefer this direction.

thanks,
Kaname


On 2019/07/24 21:40, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:

Indeed.

 

This is one of the discuss points in Section 4.1 of the draft:

 

     “check if we can define a dedicated URI for telemetry (e.g.: use

      ./telemetry).  Some of the information is not specific to each

      mitigation request."

 

Cheers,

Med

 

De : Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
Envoyé : mercredi 24 juillet 2019 14:24
À : kaname nishizuka; Jon Shallow; dots@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt

 

Is it down to the client doing a periodic poll of a (potentially new) resource?

 

[kaname]It could be one solution, however I'd like to seek a way with push notification.

 

Alternatively Observe can be used to send unsolicited notifications of pre-mitigation DOTS Telemetry Attributes for a new resource (e.g. /telemetry for targets in the victim’s network).

 

Cheers,

-Tiru


--------------BA566DBB857B8A219DC0B84D-- From nobody Wed Jul 24 06:22:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F00AE1201E6 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:22:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8I9fXAkebvGr for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12a.google.com (mail-lf1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA03A1201E0 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:22:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id b29so24707479lfq.1 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:22:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hGxS06XgNGwSUFYDOoZZb2zYveJDRVWS9xBCkBMXx0Q=; b=ZcL0R14ctVV/FdvVzdtAYJCwKDHcRXAL7tkp9ba+m8dQPJ6b5LB5neOV1EBfwwelvS zT7/PSSCfY2g+djpew6MUxBwC4qF/qq6QByu+0OLMGm99K1ijFU5n9AX1EQiMWnEmIy9 TtinQ7NNBYRL1oVF9txcddntIk/dv7GPirKzMXMT9n93GlTG1HR2n6fHNl8a52ntntQ4 XfdDbVsJl7eJ61Q52SFMrojZ66t9Nbgz6GuoMhNTwejgKMzKHIfOxUxOtL8JanvwsTaN nB5DTW/IVu5+HJLpEBGO+wonr13DDTpNewsthWNJW+UGZNtB8YWwEDNi9qsJi7/M11ER Caug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hGxS06XgNGwSUFYDOoZZb2zYveJDRVWS9xBCkBMXx0Q=; b=HsaoIOLMacrD9hzdJBjMJq2Qi3CZ9g2EFs6Sg1okuCGajpGJASBjpyUUO4vQfwFYmp o1H5QlpcWIvRRMsqFF5HZGqGhFMAaA8EIoKqQYLn8bW8BDTy1oqMip0G1RWnFjJuB9ZP APONFnc081yBDqiMaP0S01NpMEYhhB12Bvbe2duNJqrx+fP7RLmBZjbqMG3v8IPbpn9R xzUCQnkxIh1Ekp1I4E1Rl5kyp/hAfks3wXQLX9cxUQZPLSeRqffAjiocHBJHMzfTya3x OWreObbTgqCHVHnp23MhkaJhqSeU8cnS2XcqA9upJeCPrhMIymUTGNQPBQe5jLTq+um5 LWIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX9RJyzOuYRQFYGPUKNIeuLZCgKoIrLBfexJmTzZzHi09OXtEUz 08RME1Ub35eKemDJNP/d3cl7UZ7cYRor2wgv3ZY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzlyK01PxfSKwOj1G8jWfRSDIus6pVBSM1FkzP1D8TVREAGgioNT7HlcIlNnf71XELI6F3uIftlC5kjKVliV4Y= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:596c:: with SMTP id h12mr3973864lfp.101.1563974519062; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:21:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156233245922.21720.2303446065970922340.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E739F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E73FA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E73FA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: H Y Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:26:39 -0400 Message-ID: To: Mohamed Boucadair Cc: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , tirumal reddy , "dots@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:22:04 -0000 Hi Med, > [Med] Yes. My point is if one has to return a list of top-talkers in term= s of pps, another list of top-talkers in terms of second_criteria, or other= information relying on source-prefix dedicated attributes will be needed b= ecause this cannot be inferred from the current source-prefix attribute. [hayashi] +1. This top-talker information is helpful for the orchestrator to decide which attack traffic should be blocked preferentially in network. The criteria information is also needed. Thanks, Yuhei 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=A5(=E6=B0=B4) 8:56 : > > Re-, > > Please see inline. > > Cheers, > Med > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy [mailto:TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.c= om] > > Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 24 juillet 2019 14:45 > > =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; H Y; tirumal reddy > > Cc : dots@ietf.org > > Objet : RE: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots- > > telemetry-00.txt > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 6:02 PM > > > To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy > > > ; H Y > > > ; tirumal reddy > > > Cc: dots@ietf.org > > > Subject: RE: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dot= s- > > > telemetry-00.txt > > > > > > This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click > > links or > > > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content= is > > > safe. > > > > > > Hi Tiru, > > > > > > That=E2=80=99s true...but fragmentation is a general issue each time = we need to > > > supply more telemetry information in the signal channel. As already > > noted in > > > the draft, we will need to figure out when it is better to provide so= me > > > telemetry information using data channel. > > > > Yes, normal traffic baseline attributes can be conveyed in the DOTS dat= a > > channel and traffic from top talkers can also be blocked/rate-limited > > using the DOTS data channel during peace time. > > > > > > > > BTW, "top talker" can already be supplied using source-prefix attribu= te. > > > Whether top-talker needs to be defined as a separated attribute, but > > > structured as a list of source-prefixes is a design details (if the W= G > > agrees to > > > include it in the telemetry information). > > > > Source-prefix is already a list/array. > > [Med] Yes. My point is if one has to return a list of top-talkers in term= s of pps, another list of top-talkers in terms of second_criteria, or other= information relying on source-prefix dedicated attributes will be needed b= ecause this cannot be inferred from the current source-prefix attribute. > > > > > > > > > Anyway, let's continue collecting candidate telemetry information and > > then > > > make a selection in a second phase. > > > > Sure. > > > > Cheers, > > -Tiru > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Med > > > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > > De : Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Konda, > > > > Tirumaleswar Reddy Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 24 juillet 2019 14:18 =C3= =80 : H Y; > > > > tirumal reddy Cc : dots@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Versio= n > > > > Notification for draft-reddy-dots- telemetry-00.txt > > > > > > > > Hi Yuhei, > > > > > > > > Thanks for the support. The problem is fragmentation of the DOTS > > > > telemetry message, DOTS Telemetry is sent over the DOTS signal chan= nel > > > > using UDP and the message size cannot exceed PMTU. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > -Tiru > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Dots On Behalf Of H Y > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2019 5:28 PM > > > > > To: tirumal reddy > > > > > Cc: dots@ietf.org > > > > > Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for > > > > > draft-reddy-dots- telemetry-00.txt > > > > > > > > > > This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not cl= ick > > > > links or > > > > > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the > > > > > content is safe. > > > > > > > > > > Hi Tiru, > > > > > > > > > > I read the draft and I also support this draft. > > > > > Sending detail information about attack traffic helps my dms offl= oad > > > > scenario > > > > > because the orchestrator can decide what to do based on the detai= l > > > > > information. > > > > > > > > > > IMO, "top talker" attribute defined in my previous draft is also > > > > feasible to > > > > > send and effective to mitigate attack correctly. > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-h-dots-mitigation-offload- > > > > expansion/ > > > > > What do you think about including the top talker attribute to the > > > > telemetry? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Yuhei > > > > > > > > > > 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=885=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 9:21 tirumal reddy <= kondtir@gmail.com>: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00 aims = to > > > > enrich > > > > > DOTS protocols with various telemetry attributes allowing optimal > > > > > DDoS attack mitigation. This document specifies the normal traffi= c > > > > > baseline > > > > and > > > > > attack traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to i= ts > > > > > DOTS > > > > server > > > > > in the mitigation request, the mitigation status telemetry > > > > > attributes a > > > > DOTS > > > > > server can communicate to a DOTS client, and the mitigation effic= acy > > > > > telemetry attributes a DOTS client can communicate to a DOTS serv= er. > > > > The > > > > > telemetry attributes can assist the mitigator to choose the DDoS > > > > mitigation > > > > > techniques and perform optimal DDoS attack mitigation. > > > > > > > > > > > > Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > -Tiru > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > > > > > > From: > > > > > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 18:44 > > > > > > Subject: New Version Notification for > > > > > > draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt > > > > > > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy , Ehud Doron > > > > > > , Mohamed Boucadair > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt has bee= n > > > > > > successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the > > > > > > IETF repository. > > > > > > > > > > > > Name: draft-reddy-dots-telemetry > > > > > > Revision: 00 > > > > > > Title: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat > > Signaling > > > > (DOTS) > > > > > Telemetry > > > > > > Document date: 2019-07-05 > > > > > > Group: Individual Submission > > > > > > Pages: 13 > > > > > > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-redd= y- > > dots- > > > > > telemetry-00.txt > > > > > > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-do= ts- > > > > telemetry/ > > > > > > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots- > > > > telemetry-00 > > > > > > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-red= dy- > > > > dots- > > > > > telemetry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Abstract: > > > > > > This document aims to enrich DOTS signal channel protocol wi= th > > > > > > various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS attack > > > > mitigation. > > > > > > This document specifies the normal traffic baseline and atta= ck > > > > > > traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to its > > DOTS > > > > > > server in the mitigation request, the mitigation status > > telemetry > > > > > > attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS client, a= nd > > the > > > > > > mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client can > > > > > > communicate to a DOTS server. The telemetry attributes can > > assist > > > > > > the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques and > > perform > > > > > > optimal DDoS attack mitigation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time = of > > > > > > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > > > > tools.ietf.org. > > > > > > > > > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Dots mailing list > > > > > > Dots@ietf.org > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > ---------------------------------- > > > > > Yuuhei HAYASHI > > > > > 08065300884 > > > > > yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com > > > > > iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp > > > > > ---------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Dots mailing list > > > > > Dots@ietf.org > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Dots mailing list > > > > Dots@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots --=20 ---------------------------------- Yuuhei HAYASHI 08065300884 yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp ---------------------------------- From nobody Wed Jul 24 06:34:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DF69120261; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:34:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CaxLimO9gHVv; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FE2012024C; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id x6ODYGJO030819 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:34:19 -0400 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 08:34:16 -0500 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com Cc: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , Valery Smyslov , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "dots@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20190724133415.GG50840@kduck.mit.edu> References: <011701d53ea2$74d81540$5e883fc0$@smyslov.net> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E32E9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3433@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E34A0@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3792@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3A41@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3A41@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:34:27 -0000 On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 03:03:21PM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > Re-, > > Please see inline. > > Cheers, > Med > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy [mailto:TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com] > > Envoyé : lundi 22 juillet 2019 16:02 > > À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; Valery Smyslov; 'Benjamin Kaduk'; dots- > > chairs@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org > > Objet : RE: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) > > > > > > Yes, it is YANG limitation but not stop the protocol from giving a > > recommendation for TCP. > > [Med] The issue is that we need to be consistent: the parameter applies for all transport. We cannot set two defaults for it. Sure, but we also can't set two default transports. We can set a default value that matches the default (i.e., recommended) transport, and make a note that when the one parameter is changed, it typically makes sense to change the other as well. That's what I thought Tiru was asking for. -Ben From nobody Wed Jul 24 06:37:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3340B1200DB for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:37:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (public key: not available)" header.d=mcafee.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vR3YjLioEV_N for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us-smtp-delivery-210.mimecast.com (us-smtp-delivery-210.mimecast.com [63.128.21.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7915912037A for ; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 595541200E3; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:49:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rM9w84CSkROD; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25BEA1200BA; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar06.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.8]) by opfedar22.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45txY05hDtz2xMM; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 15:49:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.98]) by opfedar06.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45txY04LNZz3wbg; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 15:49:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM7F.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 15:49:40 +0200 From: To: Benjamin Kaduk CC: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "Valery Smyslov" , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) Thread-Index: AQHVQiSGwEz7tKNFfky52TFPWac+6abZxXSQ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:49:40 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E7566@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <011701d53ea2$74d81540$5e883fc0$@smyslov.net> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E32E9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3433@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E34A0@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3792@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3A41@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20190724133415.GG50840@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20190724133415.GG50840@kduck.mit.edu> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:49:44 -0000 Hi Ben,=20 IMO, this falls under this text: =20 A heartbeat-interval of 30 seconds may be considered as too chatty in some deployments. For such deployments, DOTS agents may negotiate longer heartbeat-interval values to prevent any network overload with too frequent keepalives. Isn't it? Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu] > Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 24 juillet 2019 15:34 > =C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN > Cc=A0: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Valery Smyslov; dots-chairs@ietf.org; > dots@ietf.org > Objet=A0: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) >=20 > On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 03:03:21PM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > wrote: > > Re-, > > > > Please see inline. > > > > Cheers, > > Med > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > De=A0: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy > [mailto:TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com] > > > Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 22 juillet 2019 16:02 > > > =C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; Valery Smyslov; 'Benjamin Kaduk'; = dots- > > > chairs@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org > > > Objet=A0: RE: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) > > > > > > > > > Yes, it is YANG limitation but not stop the protocol from giving a > > > recommendation for TCP. > > > > [Med] The issue is that we need to be consistent: the parameter applies > for all transport. We cannot set two defaults for it. >=20 > Sure, but we also can't set two default transports. We can set a default > value that matches the default (i.e., recommended) transport, and make a > note that when the one parameter is changed, it typically makes sense to > change the other as well. That's what I thought Tiru was asking for. >=20 > -Ben From nobody Wed Jul 24 06:51:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 722371202B6 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:51:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DR9gB_ZVcwvC for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x132.google.com (mail-lf1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9AEBA12037C for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x132.google.com with SMTP id x3so32110684lfc.0 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:50:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=U18bwnsOFVc5SJFyCvBMwpmSTego3+9x2KCstpwo0a0=; b=k6s8fHMDg3+HonXy4tLeSb0dOtOJvptTMEiRz5+kKcsSJpn327VHYNJSSu26qoBSKe ZO1L7xAIQZZ2njZn15kNv+NSlCBTHo7OAi/0Xe0UxDXYjF3O/ClmJtaDcKMCwUAgqYnq /P50CPApVsp8rRZrIZfQwhHzW7/1sfs1z0NY9xBfiPjWprG/Shdrnt4e92LWJUxNmevj y468Tk3vDH/WtNzZGrZVNfH6Kgalxd33eWkJnEwijxYQseVH9IarQ//s8JUL84X1x4tS K2x5flrgeb2eTou83tyOAK83A4nmd9ASGQJbOL2BpxzGVs435JqZ6QFMlyGLOFtEPQRF j9HA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=U18bwnsOFVc5SJFyCvBMwpmSTego3+9x2KCstpwo0a0=; b=Sv6Sh++8OzotAK6J7SUCPiRsnANWI0+b25P7rFDaPKL4wmeDKdFul7fqlFwmU0QlOe QBkmX0FnkVz4IKzf/ypEANYlJ1pgufpfRsVTTrQkgj3DHBflAEns1hYSVY+nRBM0F0ZZ Hoas3MwLkNRU/KVOUks0uBM42mPSCEm00ZZ0m85F8F8BStKUWtQWVOg1Ljeu7ntiHBrA M0/AlgSMnWvleNQXuyfe9UqVBKQW0bhu9t2G54gyHW4/8jP9O2FFpS43oKJpFtkqjpwa W/IMTRbtcAUbuju2OfxgasdtvB3R6BVtZLcumBU93d94BUH9JBCpWEORxUnfLqFQP9Mh Zveg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVYgadHRjuxKMnxVnehXZeH/mrWxB+Vw6fNU1emHdELaVwsS4Yb YaD6uCrOgERifia034zt5FqioGKcGS+E7IpdD1A= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyspO337ozm7gUPzvtBxVwOvJ/am6zZ7vfG5IyMvB36HUp5YLcNKFO0qaIjv3+VWJQyciaXXtdzjwFPL3UplsA= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:596c:: with SMTP id h12mr4040493lfp.101.1563976257604; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:50:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156233245922.21720.2303446065970922340.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E739F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E73FA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: From: H Y Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:55:36 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" Cc: Mohamed Boucadair , tirumal reddy , "dots@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:51:10 -0000 Hi Tiru > What is stopping the attacker to frequently change the IP address (especi= ally with IPv6) ? > What kind of attack traffic is generated by the top talkers and what happ= ens if the top talkers are spoofed IP addresses (e.g. amplification attack)= ? IMO, when a reflection attack hits a target, src_ip address detected at the target are reflectors ip address. If the reflector's ip does not change frequently, the top talker information can be used. Is it wrong? Thanks, Yuhei 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=A5(=E6=B0=B4) 9:37 Konda, Tirumaleswar Redd= y : > > Hi Yuhei, > > What is stopping the attacker to frequently change the IP address (especi= ally with IPv6) ? > What kind of attack traffic is generated by the top talkers and what happ= ens if the top talkers are spoofed IP addresses (e.g. amplification attack)= ? > > Cheers, > -Tiru > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: H Y > > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 6:57 PM > > To: Mohamed Boucadair > > Cc: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy ; > > tirumal reddy ; dots@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots- > > telemetry-00.txt > > > > > > > > Hi Med, > > > > > [Med] Yes. My point is if one has to return a list of top-talkers in = terms of > > pps, another list of top-talkers in terms of second_criteria, or other > > information relying on source-prefix dedicated attributes will be neede= d > > because this cannot be inferred from the current source-prefix attribut= e. > > [hayashi] +1. This top-talker information is helpful for the orchestrat= or to > > decide which attack traffic should be blocked preferentially in network= . The > > criteria information is also needed. > > > > Thanks, > > Yuhei > > > > 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=A5(=E6=B0=B4) 8:56 : > > > > > > Re-, > > > > > > Please see inline. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Med > > > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > > De : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy > > > > [mailto:TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com] > > > > Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 24 juillet 2019 14:45 =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Moh= amed > > > > TGI/OLN; H Y; tirumal reddy Cc : dots@ietf.org Objet : RE: [Dots] > > > > Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots- telemetry-00.tx= t > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 6:02 PM > > > > > To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy > > > > > ; H Y > > > > > ; tirumal reddy > > > > > Cc: dots@ietf.org > > > > > Subject: RE: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for > > > > > draft-reddy-dots- telemetry-00.txt > > > > > > > > > > This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not > > > > > click > > > > links or > > > > > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the > > > > > content is safe. > > > > > > > > > > Hi Tiru, > > > > > > > > > > That=E2=80=99s true...but fragmentation is a general issue each t= ime we > > > > > need to supply more telemetry information in the signal channel. > > > > > As already > > > > noted in > > > > > the draft, we will need to figure out when it is better to provid= e > > > > > some telemetry information using data channel. > > > > > > > > Yes, normal traffic baseline attributes can be conveyed in the DOTS > > > > data channel and traffic from top talkers can also be > > > > blocked/rate-limited using the DOTS data channel during peace time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, "top talker" can already be supplied using source-prefix att= ribute. > > > > > Whether top-talker needs to be defined as a separated attribute, > > > > > but structured as a list of source-prefixes is a design details > > > > > (if the WG > > > > agrees to > > > > > include it in the telemetry information). > > > > > > > > Source-prefix is already a list/array. > > > > > > [Med] Yes. My point is if one has to return a list of top-talkers in = terms of > > pps, another list of top-talkers in terms of second_criteria, or other > > information relying on source-prefix dedicated attributes will be neede= d > > because this cannot be inferred from the current source-prefix attribut= e. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, let's continue collecting candidate telemetry information > > > > > and > > > > then > > > > > make a selection in a second phase. > > > > > > > > Sure. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > -Tiru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Med > > > > > > > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > > > > De : Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Konda, > > > > > > Tirumaleswar Reddy Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 24 juillet 2019 14:18= =C3=80 : H > > > > > > Y; tirumal reddy Cc : dots@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dots] Fwd: New > > > > > > Version Notification for draft-reddy-dots- telemetry-00.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Yuhei, > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the support. The problem is fragmentation of the DOT= S > > > > > > telemetry message, DOTS Telemetry is sent over the DOTS signal > > > > > > channel using UDP and the message size cannot exceed PMTU. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > -Tiru > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: Dots On Behalf Of H Y > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2019 5:28 PM > > > > > > > To: tirumal reddy > > > > > > > Cc: dots@ietf.org > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Dots] Fwd: New Version Notification for > > > > > > > draft-reddy-dots- telemetry-00.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This email originated from outside of the organization. Do no= t > > > > > > > click > > > > > > links or > > > > > > > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the > > > > > > > content is safe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Tiru, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I read the draft and I also support this draft. > > > > > > > Sending detail information about attack traffic helps my dms > > > > > > > offload > > > > > > scenario > > > > > > > because the orchestrator can decide what to do based on the > > > > > > > detail information. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO, "top talker" attribute defined in my previous draft is > > > > > > > also > > > > > > feasible to > > > > > > > send and effective to mitigate attack correctly. > > > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-h-dots-mitigation-offl= o > > > > > > > ad- > > > > > > expansion/ > > > > > > > What do you think about including the top talker attribute to > > > > > > > the > > > > > > telemetry? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > Yuhei > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=885=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 9:21 tirumal red= dy : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00 > > > > > > > > aims to > > > > > > enrich > > > > > > > DOTS protocols with various telemetry attributes allowing > > > > > > > optimal DDoS attack mitigation. This document specifies the > > > > > > > normal traffic baseline > > > > > > and > > > > > > > attack traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey > > > > > > > to its DOTS > > > > > > server > > > > > > > in the mitigation request, the mitigation status telemetry > > > > > > > attributes a > > > > > > DOTS > > > > > > > server can communicate to a DOTS client, and the mitigation > > > > > > > efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client can communicate t= o a > > DOTS server. > > > > > > The > > > > > > > telemetry attributes can assist the mitigator to choose the > > > > > > > DDoS > > > > > > mitigation > > > > > > > techniques and perform optimal DDoS attack mitigation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > -Tiru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > > > > > > > > From: > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 18:44 > > > > > > > > Subject: New Version Notification for > > > > > > > > draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt > > > > > > > > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy , Ehud Doron > > > > > > > > , Mohamed Boucadair > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-dots-telemetry-00.txt has > > > > > > > > been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and poste= d > > > > > > > > to the IETF repository. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Name: draft-reddy-dots-telemetry > > > > > > > > Revision: 00 > > > > > > > > Title: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat > > > > Signaling > > > > > > (DOTS) > > > > > > > Telemetry > > > > > > > > Document date: 2019-07-05 > > > > > > > > Group: Individual Submission > > > > > > > > Pages: 13 > > > > > > > > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-= reddy- > > > > dots- > > > > > > > telemetry-00.txt > > > > > > > > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-redd= y-dots- > > > > > > telemetry/ > > > > > > > > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-dot= s- > > > > > > telemetry-00 > > > > > > > > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft= -reddy- > > > > > > dots- > > > > > > > telemetry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Abstract: > > > > > > > > This document aims to enrich DOTS signal channel protoco= l with > > > > > > > > various telemetry attributes allowing optimal DDoS attac= k > > > > > > mitigation. > > > > > > > > This document specifies the normal traffic baseline and = attack > > > > > > > > traffic telemetry attributes a DOTS client can convey to > > > > > > > > its > > > > DOTS > > > > > > > > server in the mitigation request, the mitigation status > > > > telemetry > > > > > > > > attributes a DOTS server can communicate to a DOTS > > > > > > > > client, and > > > > the > > > > > > > > mitigation efficacy telemetry attributes a DOTS client c= an > > > > > > > > communicate to a DOTS server. The telemetry attributes > > > > > > > > can > > > > assist > > > > > > > > the mitigator to choose the DDoS mitigation techniques > > > > > > > > and > > > > perform > > > > > > > > optimal DDoS attack mitigation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the > > > > > > > > time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are > > > > > > > > available at > > > > > > tools.ietf.org. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Dots mailing list > > > > > > > > Dots@ietf.org > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > ---------------------------------- > > > > > > > Yuuhei HAYASHI > > > > > > > 08065300884 > > > > > > > yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com > > > > > > > iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp > > > > > > > ---------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Dots mailing list > > > > > > > Dots@ietf.org > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Dots mailing list > > > > > > Dots@ietf.org > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > > > > > > > > -- > > ---------------------------------- > > Yuuhei HAYASHI > > 08065300884 > > yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com > > iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp > > ---------------------------------- --=20 ---------------------------------- Yuuhei HAYASHI 08065300884 yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp ---------------------------------- From nobody Wed Jul 24 07:01:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2C9B120088; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 07:01:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eYeYg0znoENI; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 07:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 394AD12006F; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 07:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id x6OE12je011560 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 24 Jul 2019 10:01:05 -0400 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:01:02 -0500 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com Cc: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , Valery Smyslov , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "dots@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20190724140101.GI50840@kduck.mit.edu> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3433@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E34A0@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3792@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3A41@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20190724133415.GG50840@kduck.mit.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E7566@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E7566@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 14:01:09 -0000 On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 01:49:40PM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > Hi Ben, > > IMO, this falls under this text: > > A heartbeat-interval of 30 seconds may be considered as too chatty > in some deployments. For such deployments, DOTS agents may > negotiate longer heartbeat-interval values to prevent any network > overload with too frequent keepalives. > > Isn't it? I think the document is quite clear that there are cases where 30 seconds doesn't make sense. My question is whether we want to be very explicit about linking the "TCP is used" case as being one such case where 30 seconds doesn't make sense. "No" is a fine answer, but I just wanted to ask. -Ben From nobody Wed Jul 24 09:09:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E015412013B; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:09:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3HVoeZbWQYYJ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:09:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF445120043; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:09:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr07.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.71]) by opfednr20.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45v0fP0CxJz1yfc; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 18:09:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.70]) by opfednr07.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45v0fN6x9SzFpXL; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 18:09:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM33.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 18:09:32 +0200 From: To: Benjamin Kaduk CC: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "Valery Smyslov" , "dots-chairs@ietf.org" , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) Thread-Index: AQHVQihApXHJDxqtQkWjGJXKtxBPs6bZ65KQ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 16:09:31 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E79EB@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3433@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E34A0@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3792@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E3A41@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20190724133415.GG50840@kduck.mit.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E7566@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20190724140101.GI50840@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20190724140101.GI50840@kduck.mit.edu> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 16:09:37 -0000 Re-, I don't think so.=20 There is already some "generic" text in RFC8323 (CoAP/TCP):=20 "According to [HomeGateway], the mean for TCP and UDP NAT binding timeouts is 386 minutes (TCP) and 160 seconds (UDP). Shorter timeout values require keepalive messages to be sent more frequently. Hence, the use of CoAP over TCP requires less-frequent transmission of keepalive messages." Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu] > Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 24 juillet 2019 16:01 > =C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN > Cc=A0: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; Valery Smyslov; dots-chairs@ietf.org; > dots@ietf.org > Objet=A0: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) >=20 > On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 01:49:40PM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > > > IMO, this falls under this text: > > > > A heartbeat-interval of 30 seconds may be considered as too chatt= y > > in some deployments. For such deployments, DOTS agents may > > negotiate longer heartbeat-interval values to prevent any network > > overload with too frequent keepalives. > > > > Isn't it? >=20 > I think the document is quite clear that there are cases where 30 seconds > doesn't make sense. My question is whether we want to be very explicit > about linking the "TCP is used" case as being one such case where 30 > seconds doesn't make sense. "No" is a fine answer, but I just wanted to > ask. >=20 > -Ben From nobody Thu Jul 25 00:42:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD1F61202F2 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 00:42:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vuHucdJ9fnmq for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 00:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 068B31202C6 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 00:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar00.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.11]) by opfedar23.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45vPMH2HK5zBsCJ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 09:42:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.70]) by opfedar00.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45vPMH19hHzCqlH; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 09:42:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM33.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 09:42:51 +0200 From: To: Wei Pan , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-dots-signal-filter-control: Wei's comment about the behavior when 5.03 is received Thread-Index: AdVCvI7Mq4TGAis2SHeruWD46fP7NQ== Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 07:42:50 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E84ED@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E84EDOPEXCAUBMA2corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] draft-ietf-dots-signal-filter-control: Wei's comment about the behavior when 5.03 is received X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 07:42:55 -0000 --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E84EDOPEXCAUBMA2corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Wei, all, You raised a comment during the meeting about the behavior when a 5.03 is r= eceived for a request including ACLs. The spec says the following: If the DOTS client receives a 5.03 (Service Unavailable) with a ^^ diagnostic payload indicating a failed ACL update as a response to an initial mitigation or a mitigation with adjusted scope, the DOTS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ client MUST immediately send a new request which repeats all the parameters as sent in the failed mitigation request but without including the ACL attributes. The slides are referring to this case. Cheers, Med --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E84EDOPEXCAUBMA2corp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Wei, all,

 

You raised a comment during the meeting abo= ut the behavior when a 5.03 is received for a request including ACLs.

 

The spec says the following:

 

   If the DOTS client receives a 5.03 (=
Service Unavailable) with a
   ^^
   diagnostic payload indicating a fail=
ed ACL update as a response to an
   initial mitigation or a mitigation w=
ith adjusted scope, the DOTS
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^=
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   client MUST immediately send a new r=
equest which repeats all the
   parameters as sent in the failed mit=
igation request but without
   including the ACL attributes.

 

The slides are referring to this case.

 

Cheers,

Med

--_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E84EDOPEXCAUBMA2corp_-- From nobody Thu Jul 25 04:28:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7489812002F for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 04:28:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, INVALID_MSGID=0.568, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8ND0sUCfPkpy for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 04:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83C11120020 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 04:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 4EF836086303762D047C for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 12:28:24 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.74) by lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.43) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 12:28:23 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.207]) by NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 19:28:19 +0800 From: "Panwei (William)" To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-dots-signal-filter-control: Wei's comment about the behavior when 5.03 is received Thread-Index: AdVCvI7Mq4TGAis2SHeruWD46fP7NQAH4CcI Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 11:28:19 +0000 Message-ID: 25E63F02-CC22-4AF0-9917-C4E2F7E762AD References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E84ED@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E84ED@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_25E63F02CC224AF09917C4E2F7E762AD_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] draft-ietf-dots-signal-filter-control: Wei's comment about the behavior when 5.03 is received X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=qmP/k4Vffcma9KEFpDvWJt6Y3cqko8xLOxZ0RUhPrYY=; b=f6FvZoMySj/flqhIH34mGVIw+J s4S7Vi8q0lK7KBugGa4EvSrqjQyhT0PERQfEBeW/raa2KkQVaMFZLSjj6teU1myJTkwU/1JdG54ct 5E6Rl2rWN50fr4XyV6U9PzdZGhvq3Y/tNBGG8OSuCKijU7+4lpFSJs26DrFxM8G6zPOk7IcpRgTGr Hk7pOFcIL8T4FPyeYazwA5IfqKoS7UPJONi8TyfVgWQE/ZlAIa5S2k28plBmCVH9c++OvDCuN7Oaa QOSr2QY4a+Ut8LTCHmhmdL5hs1njD1rKG2x94v88i3u5TUbHjnogiZ2nzW7p1Avj7ZOKDaiDzFHwR C4YEispg==; Received: from dhcp-89e8.meeting.ietf.org ([31.133.137.232]:53255 helo=svannotebook) by direct.host-care.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hqdN8-0006WZ-Nm; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 09:01:26 -0400 From: "Valery Smyslov" To: "'Carsten Bormann'" Cc: "'Benjamin Kaduk'" , , , "'Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy'" , References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302FA841A9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <00c201d53e27$194cfc20$4be6f460$@smyslov.net> <20190721040520.GS23137@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:01:24 +0300 Message-ID: <017601d542e9$11154f00$333fed00$@smyslov.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQI3NMpmTxo3A+0PVQS1r9HIn/ZDygFLQw4RAL3bsOECipTfIaXyyNww Content-Language: ru X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - direct.host-care.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - smyslov.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: direct.host-care.com: authenticated_id: valery@smyslov.net X-Authenticated-Sender: direct.host-care.com: valery@smyslov.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] FW: Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 13:01:32 -0000 Hi, I talked to Mirja yesterday about her DISCUSS and she suggested to ask = CoAP expert=20 whether the authors do liveness check right from CoAP point of view. So I asked Carsten to comment on this. I think that Tiru's analysis = below is a good starting point. Regards, Valery. -----Original Message----- From: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =20 Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 9:52 AM To: Benjamin Kaduk ; Valery Smyslov Cc: dots-chairs@ietf.org; mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; dots@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) Hi Ben, There seems to several confusions regarding the heartbeat mechanism, I = will try to address all the comments/Discuss from you, Mirja and Valery = below: [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252 is specific to UDP transport = (and does not deal with TCP). Please see the first paragraph in = https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252#section-3. The message transmission = parameters (max-retransmit, ack-timeout and ack-random-factor) and = missing-hb-allowed discussed in DOTS signal channel are specific to UDP = transport. [2] CoAP over TCP is discussed in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8323. = Please see the following differences b/w CoAP-over UDP and CoAP-over-TCP = relevant to our discussion: a) CoAP ping/pong defined in RFC7252 (uses Empty confirmable message and = reset) will not work for CoAP-over-TCP. As per = https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8323#section-3.4, Empty messages (Code = 0.00) can always be sent and MUST be ignored by the recipient. = CoAP-over-TCP defines its own CoAP ping/pong for connection health (see = https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8323#section-5.4). =20 b)Confirmable and Non-confirmable message types are specific to UDP, = and are not supported in CoAP-over-TCP. [3] For TCP, if no ack is received for CoAP ping for specific duration, = TCP will close the connection, and the DOTS client will have to = re-establish the TCP connection. missing-hb-allowed is of no use for = TCP. We are all in the same page for TCP, and the draft can probably=20 be updated for better clarity. [4] Now coming to UDP, please see my responses below: a) As you already know, DOTS signal channel uses heartbeat exchange in = both directions, and hence CoAP ping is sent by both DOTS client and = server. b) CoAP ping is a confirmable message and hence the exponential back-off = with the default value of MAX_RETRANSMIT is 4 = (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252#section-4.8). c) CoAP ping is the only confirmable message exchanged during attack = (all other messages exchanged during an attack are non-confirmable). = The specification allows distinct values for message transmission = parameters and missing-hb-allowed to be used during attack and peace = times. To handle congestion conditions during an attack, the specification = allows two options: [Option a] By setting MAX_RETRANSMIT to 1, exponential-back off is = avoided and missing-hb-allowed set to a very higher value (e.g. 20) to = handle congestion (high packet loss). The draft can be updated to = explain [Option a] in more detail. [Option b] The CoAP MAX_RETRANSMIT default value of 4 is not modified, = and for example, missing-hb-allowed can be set to 5 (since 4 transmits = are not sufficient to detect the peer is not alive during congestion).=20 The Discuss from Mirja is not to rely on the CoAP ping/pong but to = define it in the DOTS layer itself (please see = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/V6vv28zDpdY5eR_kaB7L-60bhkk) = and suggested to go with an alternate design using non-confirmable = messages. The alternate design won't work is our assessment, please see = my response = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/QRMfsmhPTFksN6a_nBBKimVx-lM=20 Cheers, -Tiru > -----Original Message----- > From: Dots On Behalf Of Benjamin Kaduk > Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 9:35 AM > To: Valery Smyslov > Cc: dots-chairs@ietf.org; mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; dots@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Dots] Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) >=20 > This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click=20 > links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the = > content is safe. >=20 > Hi Valery, >=20 > On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 02:42:50PM +0300, Valery Smyslov wrote: > > Hi Med, > > > > I believe Mirja's main point was that if you use liveness check=20 > > mechanism in the transport layer, then if it reports that liveness=20 > > check fails, > then it _also_ closes the transport session. > > > > Quotes from her emails: > > "Yes, as Coap Ping is used, the agent should not only conclude that=20 > > the > DOTS signal session is disconnected but also the Coap session and not=20 > send any further Coap messages anymore." > > > > and > > > > "Actually to my understanding this will not work. Both TCP heartbeat = > > and > Coap Ping are transmitted reliably. If you don=E2=80=99t receive an = ack for=20 > these transmissions you are not able to send any additional messages=20 > and can only close the connection." > > > > I'm not familiar with CoAP, but I suspect she's right about TCP - if = > > TCP layer itself doesn't receive ACK for the sent data after several > retransmissions, the connection is closed. >=20 > Thanks for this crisp summary (and thanks Med for the detailed writeup = > as well)! >=20 > > As far as I understand the current draft allows underlying liveness=20 > > check to fail and has a parameter to restart this check several=20 > > times if this happens. It seems that a new transport session will be = > > created in this case (at least if TCP is used). In my reading of the = > > draft this seems not been assumed, it is assumed that the session=20 > > remains the > same. So, I think that main Mirja's concern is that it won't work (at=20 > least with TCP). >=20 > My sense is similar; if I could attempt to summarize Mirja's stance,=20 > it's that we're invoking a transport-level feature that does its own=20 > retransmit and backoff, but then if the transport comes back and says=20 > "the peer is gone", we say "but we're under attack, so I don't believe = you; try again". > This kicks of another independent set of "retransmits" (I know it's=20 > not technically the right word) with a fresh exponential backoff. =20 > There's two complaints about this: (1) we're changing the transport,=20 > since if the transport concludes the peer is gone then the transport=20 > "normally" tears down the connection (*) entirely, and (2) the=20 > assembly of (exponential backoff 1), (exponential backoff 2),=20 > (exponential backoff 2) is strange pacing, and might be better served=20 > by a similar number of "retransmits" but with different pacing, since=20 > the long delay at the end of each backoff period is not expected to=20 > add a huge amount of value in terms of letting congestion ease during=20 > attack time, and we would be just as well served by capping the delay = between retransmits and having more retransmits. >=20 > The asterisk on (1) is of course because, as is noted later in the=20 > thread, only TCP tears down the association when it concludes the peer = > is gone (assuming I'm reading the right parts of 7252). Quoting 7252: >=20 > If the > retransmission counter reaches MAX_RETRANSMIT on a timeout, or if = the > endpoint receives a Reset message, then the attempt to transmit the > message is canceled and the application process informed of = failure. > On the other hand, if the endpoint receives an acknowledgement in > time, transmission is considered successful. >=20 > So all CoAP does is to tell the application "that request didn't=20 > work", but CoAP is happy to try additional requests on the connection; = > the teardown logic is indeed left up to the application. >=20 > I'm not sure that we've seen much discussion about (2), though (sorry=20 > if I missed it) -- why is the repeated backoff-and-restart the right=20 > pacing for this purpose? >=20 > -Ben >=20 > > I didn't participate in the WG discussion on this, so I don't know=20 > > what was discussed regarding this issue. If it was discussed and the = > > WG has come to conclusion that this is not an issue, then I believe=20 > > more text should be added to the draft so, that people like Mirja,=20 > > who > didn't participate in the discussion, don't have any concerns while=20 > reading the draft. > > > > Regards, > > Valery. > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > > > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 9:57 AM > > > To: Benjamin Kaduk (kaduk@mit.edu) ; dots-=20 > > > chairs@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org > > > Subject: Mirja's DISCUSS: Pending Point (AD Help Needed) > > > > > > Hi Ben, chairs, all, > > > > > > (restricting the discussion to the AD/chairs/WG) > > > > > > * Status: > > > > > > All DISCUSS points from Mirja's review were fixed, except the one=20 > > > discussed in this message. > > > > > > * Pending Point: > > > > > > Rather than going into much details, I consider the following as=20 > > > the summary of the remaining DISCUSS point from Mirja: > > > > > > > I believe there are flaws in the design. First it=E2=80=99s a = layer=20 > > > > violation, but if more an idealistic concern but usually=20 > > > > designing in layers is a good approach. But more importantly,=20 > > > > you end up with un-frequent messages which may still terminate=20 > > > > the connection at some point, while what you want is to simply=20 > > > > send messages frequently in an unreliable fashion but a low rate = until the attack is over. > > > > > > * Discussion: > > > > > > (1) First of all, let's remind that RFC7252 does not define how=20 > > > CoAP ping must be used. It does only say: > > > > > > =3D=3D > > > Provoking a Reset > > > message (e.g., by sending an Empty Confirmable message) is = also > > > useful as an inexpensive check of the liveness of an = endpoint > > > ("CoAP ping"). > > > =3D=3D > > > > > > How the liveness is assessed is left to applications. So, there is > > > ** no layer violation **. > > > > > > (2) What we need isn't (text from Mirja): > > > > > > > to simply send messages frequently in an unreliable fashion but=20 > > > > a low rate until the attack is over " > > > > > > It is actually the other way around. The spec says: > > > > > > "... This is particularly useful for DOTS > > > servers that might want to reduce heartbeat frequency or cease > > > heartbeat exchanges when an active DOTS client has not = requested > > > mitigation." > > > > > > What we want can be formalized as: > > > - Taking into account DDoS traffic conditions, a check to assess=20 > > > the liveness of the peer DOTS agent + maintain NAT/FW state on=20 > > > on-path > devices. > > > > > > An much more elaborated version is documented in SIG-004 of RFC = 8612. > > > > > > * My analysis: > > > > > > - The intended functionality is naturally provided by existing=20 > > > CoAP > messages. > > > - Informed WG decision: The WG spent a lot of cycles when=20 > > > specifying the current behavior to be meet the requirements set in = RFC8612. > > > - Why not an alternative design: We can always define messages=20 > > > with duplicated functionality, but that is not a good design=20 > > > approach especially when there is no evident benefit. > > > - The specification is not broken: it was implemented and tested. > > > > > > And a logistic comment: this issue fits IMHO under the non-discuss = > > > criteria in=20 > > > https://www.ietf.org/blog/discuss-criteria-iesg-review/#stand- > undisc. > > > > > > * What's Next? > > > > > > As an editor, I don't think a change is needed but I'd like to=20 > > > hear from Ben, chairs, and the WG. > > > > > > Please share your thoughts and whether you agree/disagree with the = > > > above analysis. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Med > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots From nobody Thu Jul 25 07:05:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B15712001A for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 07:05:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id noIhF5Y0Cxas for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 07:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97680120024 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 07:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar07.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.9]) by opfedar27.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45vYr92P8Hz2yCG; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:04:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.54]) by opfedar07.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45vYr91VWdz5vP0; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:04:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM7D.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:04:57 +0200 From: To: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" CC: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-dots-call-home: Franck's comment about the heartbeat procedure Thread-Index: AdVC8fAjbko4TKmjSpO6b5gxlATQ7w== Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:04:56 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E8842@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E8842OPEXCAUBMA2corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] draft-ietf-dots-call-home: Franck's comment about the heartbeat procedure X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:05:00 -0000 --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E8842OPEXCAUBMA2corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Franck, You asked yesterday whether the call home uses the same heartbeat mechanism= as in the base signal channel. Below some clarifications: * The same heartbeat messages are used * Unlike the base spec, it is the DOTS server which must start send= ing the heartbeats (NAT/FW traversal issues) * Unlike the base spec, the server may access to the times used by = a NAT/FW. It can therefore adjust the heartbeat-interval accordingly. * Unlike the base spec, only the server can resume the connection (= the client can't) * Unlike the base spec, heartbeats from the server to the client ma= y be dropped because of an outgoing attack We considered in previous version of the spec to rely as much on the heartb= eat mechanism in the base signal channel by calling out the main difference= : role reversal. But we found later that this wouldn't work because of the = considerations listed above. Thus, a simplified mechanism is defined for the call-home. Please check: ht= tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-03#section-3.2 Cheers, Med --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E8842OPEXCAUBMA2corp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Franck,

 

You asked yesterday whether the call home u= ses the same heartbeat mechanism as in the base signal channel. Below some = clarifications:

·     &= nbsp;   The same heartbeat messages are use= d

·     &= nbsp;   Unlike the base spec, it is the DOT= S server which must start sending the heartbeats (NAT/FW traversal issues)<= o:p>

·     &= nbsp;   Unlike the base spec, the server ma= y access to the times used by a NAT/FW. It can therefore adjust the heartbe= at-interval accordingly.

·     &= nbsp;   Unlike the base spec, only the serv= er can resume the connection (the client can’t)

·     &= nbsp;   Unlike the base spec, heartbeats fr= om the server to the client may be dropped because of an outgoing attack

 

We considered in previous version of the sp= ec to rely as much on the heartbeat mechanism in the base signal channel by= calling out the main difference: role reversal. But we found later that this wouldn’t work because of the considerat= ions listed above.

 

Thus, a simplified mechanism is defined for= the call-home. Please check: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-03#section-3.2=

 

Cheers,

Med

 

--_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E8842OPEXCAUBMA2corp_-- From nobody Thu Jul 25 07:09:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietf.org Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 379FC1201CD; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 07:08:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: dots@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.99.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dots@ietf.org Message-ID: <156406373910.12609.9395119826128037808@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 07:08:59 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-04.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:09:00 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IETF. Title : Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Signal Channel Call Home Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy Mohamed Boucadair Jon Shallow Filename : draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-04.txt Pages : 31 Date : 2019-07-25 Abstract: This document specifies the DOTS signal channel Call Home service, which enables a DOTS server to initiate a secure connection to a DOTS client, and to receive the attack traffic information from the DOTS client. The DOTS server in turn uses the attack traffic information to identify the compromised devices launching the outgoing DDoS attack and takes appropriate mitigation action(s). The DOTS Call Home service is not specific to the home networks; the solution targets any deployment which requires to block DDoS attack traffic closer to the source(s) of a DDoS attack. Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor) Please update these statements within the document with the RFC number to be assigned to this document: o "This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX;" o "RFC XXXX: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Signal Channel Call Home"; o "| [RFCXXXX] |" o reference: RFC XXXX Please update this statement with the RFC number to be assigned to the following documents: o "RFC YYYY: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification (used to be I-D.ietf-dots- signal-channel) Please update TBD statements with the assignment made by IANA to DOTS Signal Channel Call Home. Also, please update the "revision" date of the YANG module. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-04 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Jul 25 07:16:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7940412006F for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 07:16:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IEiPFFUoiS3C for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 07:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A02C5120058 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 07:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr06.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.70]) by opfednr20.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45vZ5t0pdpz1yHr for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:16:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.79]) by opfednr06.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45vZ5t08q0zDq7T for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:16:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM6E.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:16:49 +0200 From: To: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-dots-call-home: Clarify DOTS Agent Roles Thread-Index: AdVC85i4bFch/Zy8RxyBqvTQ1hxRMA== Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:16:48 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E88FA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E88FAOPEXCAUBMA2corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] draft-ietf-dots-call-home: Clarify DOTS Agent Roles X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:16:54 -0000 --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E88FAOPEXCAUBMA2corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re-, There was a comment raised during the meeting asking to further clarify the= role of the various DOTS agent in the call home. We added an new section t= o address this comment: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-= call-home-04#section-1.4 Cheers, Med --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E88FAOPEXCAUBMA2corp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Re-,

 

There was a comment raised during the meeti= ng asking to further clarify the role of the various DOTS agent in the call= home. We added an new section to address this comment: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-d= ots-signal-call-home-04#section-1.4

 

Cheers,

Med

--_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E88FAOPEXCAUBMA2corp_-- From nobody Thu Jul 25 09:04:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66B751202CB for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 09:04:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l6L3CUFrygrz for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 09:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x832.google.com (mail-qt1-x832.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::832]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C0A01202C6 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 09:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x832.google.com with SMTP id x22so44673611qtp.12 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 09:04:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :thread-index:content-language; bh=+oc7JCBiWb1FLLY6xIxSfAd75LVCyy7qKFI9ajoKUNA=; b=ujNUFjSZ1kG1vOP3coD1/r2MFlQe5f+5gHoO4n5zHJX4kt5rRkWL3B9HfbY6a0nP2j fyG4sq6nFG4v5dN+GADBtCGzxbPQS/5u2qtm/GwXrs7DtTV+9V6hIsnP7pPBAEKmPLBy 5dX7HnT69WwgrZSiWKPxaLToIAaorC3R3RBdJUu9+GU24QjtjtkvC7a9w1m4O5dvi09h svx3UJsRrQa7sdFNz0ZsuFxV1YX0Km/Fp9SgoB1iJL2UYCIuwuQ5WR5Ssp9ddrCj0upc 4QQ8fadFGz2WMVa8UuO2yFeu0CCX+xoaNMYHIh1tSIdr0wVmN8ELcwxaHraJBoBul+Sd sUsg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:thread-index:content-language; bh=+oc7JCBiWb1FLLY6xIxSfAd75LVCyy7qKFI9ajoKUNA=; b=PnP6xHfOozPxFvfBbMdcJkp8cCt2+LevPnEZINdSlG8OCpei8FKko0BOHLWlye3Rzs SnT/4/5GgdJnhQ994ZkIEWdKFNE/wCH6ys2GRjN9uUKjMRcOubej9RsAcbdEsysphEqt NZZCiF2ljx1bw3P699v5bhB2T906uZOIjEaxfOOewdBrAmTms4Js/8AGXPWRnxNWNkMp A5TVHZYNw6vy7vRMfGtkHnbPN/036CpsicHmCVCpM7GFGKEC4juQb5stTuXl2l/CllzV /oo+mREmEMRAi9+TymegA4aIR1z2sGm9GZ7Wxcq0u6MGzl6AvIT14No9K45PwRTM/BHV +UeA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUvA0/43azmiMftQw8YmWXgemLgKo4HRV6HCw/AioKVo7Id6qpL MERBl8fFBL1X/JMzF1Pgp3Ifh7eo X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzqHyB16AT1xDEsrUC3tUHtBrltXekQF4COOjseK6kHmOHWML8FqbcgS/fG9ABfMVDKn3XEgw== X-Received: by 2002:aed:3e96:: with SMTP id n22mr56865725qtf.247.1564070657402; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 09:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from svannotebook ([2001:67c:370:128:ddac:81c8:e980:82e6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s25sm21531256qkm.130.2019.07.25.09.04.16 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 25 Jul 2019 09:04:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "Valery Smyslov" To: , References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E88FA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E88FA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 19:04:15 +0300 Message-ID: <01db01d54302$9bef3b40$d3cdb1c0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01DC_01D5431B.C141CA70" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQEbgZ0OFSsV/brVEpNiv5lH2gwprKhPAPnw Content-Language: ru Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] draft-ietf-dots-call-home: Clarify DOTS Agent Roles X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:04:21 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01DC_01D5431B.C141CA70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Med, thank you for adding this section, it really helps. However, I was asking for more - did you consider changing the terminology in such a way, that Call Home use case is not mixed with basic DOTS use case? For example, calling entities not just DOTS Client and DOTS Server, but say Call Home DOTS Client and Call Home DOTS Server? (actually I don't like these ad hoc names, probably you can invent better term). Regards, Valery. From: Dots On Behalf Of mohamed.boucadair@orange.com Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 5:17 PM To: dots@ietf.org Subject: [Dots] draft-ietf-dots-call-home: Clarify DOTS Agent Roles Re-, There was a comment raised during the meeting asking to further clarify the role of the various DOTS agent in the call home. We added an new section to address this comment: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-04#section-1.4 Cheers, Med ------=_NextPart_000_01DC_01D5431B.C141CA70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Med,

 

thank = you for adding this section, it really helps.

However, = I was asking for more - did you consider

changing = the terminology in such a way, that

Call = Home use case is not mixed with basic DOTS use = case?

 

For = example, calling entities not just DOTS Client and = DOTS

Server, but say Call Home DOTS Client and = Call Home DOTS Server?

(actually I don't like these ad = hoc names, probably you can invent better term).

 

Regards,

Valery.

 

 

From: Dots = <dots-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of = mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 = 5:17 PM
To: dots@ietf.org
Subject: [Dots] = draft-ietf-dots-call-home: Clarify DOTS Agent = Roles

 

Re-,

 

There = was a comment raised during the meeting asking to further clarify the = role of the various DOTS agent in the call home. We added an new section = to address this comment: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home= -04#section-1.4

 

Cheers,

Med

------=_NextPart_000_01DC_01D5431B.C141CA70-- From nobody Thu Jul 25 12:28:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0BFC12019F; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 12:28:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.596 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.596 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_COMMENT_SAVED_URL=1.391, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_HTML_ATTACH=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aeN7Uf86GYFJ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 12:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22f.google.com (mail-lj1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6278F1201A0; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 12:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id y17so24537105ljk.10; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 12:28:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+iMiH34aEEzOkawVe88Ppko9GIxIAl7omKQX2A7B6do=; b=T4AHBk6Q4qW+oo7KqtvD0KrqMmi4LnVR6bb3Q1KPrkfsYyxoFw5C6Yd/z0K31cVSbV alsxdPlJr40H9qscV9zffNNUJIpkYuYfwQ7OE47UgdLu1eTJn0BVw3In2RTgGTR5hb6z VSRm2ds6TlEYsbNhYf1ewV3OcOHvg0kS9xleIlIdaG/d7/l5fNbBjPuBYyi6VhwB8ph+ dBr0kFVM4aiTVqjmN4PZlIO9mXiRE/x8NVrUmUpNFUKUIal02cdSnKlBC0+c15HYuzEJ l7R+BUgqyfJ5eW4+9B/CFBK6O8Myw/6WyLvqFi4erpl1/MbtKHo61pxrZgyGAMIEx7Oc oVuw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+iMiH34aEEzOkawVe88Ppko9GIxIAl7omKQX2A7B6do=; b=FR7o4NztMjm8vLjK3CiAxJhO0Wog7QTdEodQotsUsJCx4QzBWQP2fjHKYS9y+tfESS AvRfQgaxKo8KrvQQn5mVaTL209Lm1WDoGyy7nWmImtVeIBbuKq0tGQFZROtin1x1F0CB EpigORNXK5Ny17ivLDilZmAt7bf5BbkfOMg7Vlufw5xi8nFrIueVZB6OUzqNM7RyaM2I sr3YKkhra7JbpOoyzIBgXX0IJ6KqIv9x7rlMXjAA0n57TA+BQ7N17uNAkkISCSzv/iZZ WCrJ6oe06r9ovG7BknqIn+ALpZkQYc3x1So1o79fzrwM2sqzSqz0vZo/5K3xJZKlTHOh LJfg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVDhE2K6ZfTcPN9rCxNqqiRw9jjwC7MuJJ1mgp+JeIXaP5+xOk+ kaocSw4LllDp6gpeYWjq3I7QH7mCxfg8/XFXMm53D1elMjU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwRFIUc3qEO2W2Hs9NrRCtG0v0odSMVVeFOq/LE5Goeq0INlhhiaOprl5OOMfB6wcjdyb86Ts04k9nLsCblK+w= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9dc1:: with SMTP id x1mr47377457ljj.0.1564082910124; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 12:28:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: H Y Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 15:33:12 -0400 Message-ID: To: "draft-ietf-dots-use-cases@ietf.org" Cc: dots Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="00000000000042036a058e866ef4" Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] About modification of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 19:28:38 -0000 --00000000000042036a058e866ef4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi dots-use-cases draft authors, At my presentation at last DOTS WG meeting, Ben said that if I modify the use case WG draft in 1 week, it is in time for the review process. In accordance with it, I modified the use case WG draft. I just appended the below sentence to 3.3. DDoS Orchestration of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18. The modification was reviewed by Kaname Nishizuka. In addition to the above DDoS Orchestration, the selected DDoS mitigation systems can return back a mitigation request to the orchestrator as an offloading. When the DDoS attack becomes severe and the DDoS mitigation system's utilization rate reaches its maximum capacity, the DDoS mitigation system can send mitigation requests with additional hints such as its blocked traffic information to the orchestrator. Then the orchestrator can take further actions like requesting forwarding nodes such as routers to filter the traffic. In this case, the DDoS mitigation system implements a DOTS client while the orchestrator implements a DOTS server. How is this? Thanks, Yuhei -- ---------------------------------- Yuuhei HAYASHI 08065300884 yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp ---------------------------------- --00000000000042036a058e866ef4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; name="draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-19.txt" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-19.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: X-Attachment-Id: f_jyj2dlgl1 DQoNCg0KDQpET1RTICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgIFIuIERvYmJpbnMNCkludGVybmV0LURyYWZ0ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBBcmJvciBOZXR3b3Jrcw0KSW50ZW5kZWQgc3RhdHVz OiBJbmZvcm1hdGlvbmFsICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBELiBNaWdhdWx0 DQpFeHBpcmVzOiBKYW51YXJ5IDksIDIwMjAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgRXJpY3Nzb24NCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIFMuIEZvdWFudA0KDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg 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by 2002:a81:5f8a:: with SMTP id t132mr55142463ywb.381.1564085286633; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 13:08:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=B6ma_Gavrichenkov?= Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 23:07:49 +0300 Message-ID: To: H Y Cc: "draft-ietf-dots-use-cases@ietf.org" , dots Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] About modification of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 20:08:10 -0000 Peace, On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 10:28 PM H Y wrote: > I just appended the below sentence to 3.3. DDoS Orchestration of > draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18. IMO this, from the architectural point of view, is quite an obvious use case which doesn't have a lot to do with orchestration itself, because it is mostly covered (in a different set of words) in 3.1. That being said, I'm personally fine with incorporating this into the draft if Kaname believes this provides a better guidance for implementers. -- T=C3=B6ma From nobody Thu Jul 25 13:44:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B37001201DB; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 13:44:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.557 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.557 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.091, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OTErOCWo1RWx; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 13:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-f41.google.com (mail-ua1-f41.google.com [209.85.222.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09AD51201D1; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 13:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-f41.google.com with SMTP id j2so20410351uaq.5; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 13:44:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ad7PlGrbp2funinsaoqpFoDHcgSzmNhsoRDiOB68pxw=; b=K40ep6h5IZJi4E4pShNtCVNBg36oRjJsoGA3BrdfivEjZHtUZ3FUxmbsxvt9sULdVa hxGDmB6k4iirLsqDwQW7kSFjtbNJnsEYE5ZetQszfLFiuK+s+beHAkGW7JnVuLl7zBrw riNbYSt+HuuA3DEWOGoSNOK88vQLZdUunagJeqJyV7kj1W84h6Bbf5ndjttd5aVITz/e /Lv6SuZIWwAaUhPF+PHeWp7IiHBhyEcWKCFxJwq8YSJw/y3OS4a6bokRPWPR+N5t2uYL asRGtKAAsCfxo0Y1svUVCKi4My7bgxPRlDQLwTHKaWvFuCvFrJuGCXOIL+V+mKjjJycg N2Lw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVW638/0nqRDcn6LUaGGczFl7hYqAF6MFdl0YuSA3FrQGm2HxGz qqRgRVIGu9Y7BTW1V+wdWBV040uBj4akJLCj97Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxl6iTpZSRekgBq4gDUO3wxPxnYC7Sope6o8T96UjiSlzGo+KGUUCBAnNsZoeY+jhWJtMm66WRFhHTGosJ2FsA= X-Received: by 2002:a9f:2e0e:: with SMTP id t14mr40949856uaj.119.1564087481080; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 13:44:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Daniel Migault Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:44:30 -0400 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=B6ma_Gavrichenkov?= Cc: H Y , "draft-ietf-dots-use-cases@ietf.org" , dots Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b5230c058e877e72" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] About modification of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 20:44:44 -0000 --000000000000b5230c058e877e72 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, If that text is believed to be clearer, I am fine with it. Anyone opposed to the text ? Yours, Daniel On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 4:08 PM T=C3=B6ma Gavrichenkov = wrote: > Peace, > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 10:28 PM H Y wrote: > > I just appended the below sentence to 3.3. DDoS Orchestration of > > draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18. > > IMO this, from the architectural point of view, is quite an obvious > use case which doesn't have a lot to do with orchestration itself, > because it is mostly covered (in a different set of words) in 3.1. > > That being said, I'm personally fine with incorporating this into the > draft if Kaname believes this provides a better guidance for > implementers. > > -- > T=C3=B6ma > > _______________________________________________ > Dots mailing list > Dots@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots > --000000000000b5230c058e877e72 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,=C2=A0

If that text is believed to b= e clearer, I am fine=C2=A0with it. Anyone opposed to the text ?
Y= ours,=C2=A0
Daniel

On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 4:08 PM T=C3=B6ma= Gavrichenkov <ximaera@gmail.com> wrote:
Pea= ce,

On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 10:28 PM H Y <yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com> wrote:
> I just appended the below sentence to 3.3. DDoS Orchestration of
> draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18.

IMO this, from the architectural point of view, is quite an obvious
use case which doesn't have a lot to do with orchestration itself,
because it is mostly covered (in a different set of words) in 3.1.

That being said, I'm personally fine with incorporating this into the draft if Kaname believes this provides a better guidance for
implementers.

--
T=C3=B6ma

_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
--000000000000b5230c058e877e72-- From nobody Thu Jul 25 14:01:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D3F01201DB; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:01:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, INVALID_MSGID=0.568, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R00SEZ98WaCp; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DA7C1201F8; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id BB6E8C2A5463557293AD; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 22:01:25 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEMM405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.213) by LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 22:01:25 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM511-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.240]) by DGGEMM405-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.213]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 05:01:18 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" To: Daniel Migault , =?utf-8?B?VMO2bWEgR2F2cmljaGVua292?= CC: H Y , "draft-ietf-dots-use-cases@ietf.org" , dots Thread-Topic: [Dots] About modification of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18 Thread-Index: AQHVQx8tHAtbWWwaUUypaXokWY1UNqbbPOmAgAAKPwCAAIrN8Q== Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 21:01:17 +0000 Message-ID: E2EAA735-DEDE-40B4-B6BB-1C802D45C222 References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E2EAA735DEDE40B4B6BB1C802D45C222_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] About modification of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:51:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nttv6.jp Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lCpYHovApxzX; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from guri.nttv6.jp (guri.nttv6.jp [115.69.228.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FAA2120299; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z.nttv6.jp (z.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:6::f]) by guri.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 1402625F6BD; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 06:51:33 +0900 (JST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nttv6.jp; s=20180820; t=1564091493; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=pPzIwVZiAJNmnXy/9hNOyQK/Aj8ehby9YLcBB9O31N8=; b=pMqWnOf7K/dC5LG0Hxd2Vl2ZlsY3uTxvmZRIIZO8gqCw8cTyRWKmhuyn00IeZAY2VO9ecn c+jkIz2N6rdOXxzCpWrTli7KgWLjthaMg7XY8e9CEeKQg45WJc8cUeBaRJFO4AxNtDur2T qhYBt6Id+wiecQut9Cj85NWgm/s2Cnw= Received: from dhcp-9bef.meeting.ietf.org (fujiko.nttv6.jp [IPv6:2402:c800:ff06:136::141]) by z.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 2085D7634FC; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 06:51:31 +0900 (JST) To: =?UTF-8?Q?T=c3=b6ma_Gavrichenkov?= , H Y Cc: "draft-ietf-dots-use-cases@ietf.org" , dots References: From: kaname nishizuka Message-ID: <20c22342-006f-12af-2244-e84a30fd72f5@nttv6.jp> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 06:51:33 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Authentication-Results: guri.nttv6.jp; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=kaname@nttv6.jp Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] About modification of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 21:51:42 -0000 Yes, I do believe. I heard from Yuhei that this additional section stems from operator's needs, and also from view point of an implementer it is worth to be mentioned. So I'm happy with including it. thanks, Kaname On 2019/07/26 5:07, Töma Gavrichenkov wrote: > Peace, > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 10:28 PM H Y wrote: >> I just appended the below sentence to 3.3. DDoS Orchestration of >> draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18. > IMO this, from the architectural point of view, is quite an obvious > use case which doesn't have a lot to do with orchestration itself, > because it is mostly covered (in a different set of words) in 3.1. > > That being said, I'm personally fine with incorporating this into the > draft if Kaname believes this provides a better guidance for > implementers. > > -- > Töma From nobody Thu Jul 25 14:59:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60CDB1201D1; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:59:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NIf7eNGhJi8f; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2b.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56252120226; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2b.google.com with SMTP id x188so14370942yba.8; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:59:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Kce3JiCRJLvOdpbtVxATSeuatmLUNrASLDh29D8QeZY=; b=IZ/UCT0Qr+xkiQS16lQ1LZZ/NSbVBLWMDJMdjBrkW2qbzUvdt8CzUUWjfUMiy5WpJW j9LGFjkw3fKLwIPOzL8QK/CDaY4XZbS4EtGe81nhTrfSyyhbGwjQVQbIPBR7pPhyQylP pn5G5J7hlw77mURRw+O6DTaIz4LImdNCY1XEdiLmNWxr1bpUG5Gr/HIQgi8O3mNkMcDI ICIRksVqIZuOfYEXhKrKI2WizHGLBeP4rt0Is9ruQ5xM+ybUUwVTDA2spK0Q8/MESigS hPkBr5UJ+sZdLRWnNFsc5wmDQLMVoI62Y6aEjfyCAmacviOEMmYRcuhZfwuXpvBgIv/4 pvVg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Kce3JiCRJLvOdpbtVxATSeuatmLUNrASLDh29D8QeZY=; b=j/sx7wNPH1a8sCBVmkJGQ0Ihr3XO8RsZr+Q9F6lstc+FXJPTPn0Wae2DS+wc+1rc/w +iIWvxPPKiB3EIrGjCyw0+93NBaWxKUI0XDIBnruhst9lwpKXJV6cSGdh3IG5iAAOoHp Slm0vtuvBdGW40CIVYLeMsz5980tAguGTsTQBtS+RvWy3REsWrc+vVKP3r4St2sk1V57 hl8wxbiMhPg44RiBsmHLatw5QZgzwPDKhrBdx63XqYoI3lDbViyiJ+gSgFTOZBDwwNVj 4JBfvqslc3IIiyMFIuHz0duU7F1noHWle29epDWBdc6cvqCczG3CTNfxgI2yHbS++VkJ oVqA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV0FxkGB6k6r8q0Bmkj/E7vVy5IyCnyZrLVelFNRT0vpCK0FLcQ mY24jmJ7HgiSc85b+mtCTgqKefEc9QUyXX2stS0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxmTdJNIjOE5Ld140xEQTb4gVaQpLLRb8GeviXtpSHfUizNFzuqfsbMKxlje/bdc031RSISWVcZj/Y0+/hllpc= X-Received: by 2002:a25:5bd7:: with SMTP id p206mr51399270ybb.230.1564091962452; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:59:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20c22342-006f-12af-2244-e84a30fd72f5@nttv6.jp> In-Reply-To: <20c22342-006f-12af-2244-e84a30fd72f5@nttv6.jp> From: =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=B6ma_Gavrichenkov?= Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 00:59:05 +0300 Message-ID: To: kaname nishizuka Cc: H Y , "draft-ietf-dots-use-cases@ietf.org" , dots Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] About modification of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 21:59:26 -0000 Peace, On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 12:51 AM kaname nishizuka wrote: > Yes, I do believe. > I heard from Yuhei that this additional section stems from operator's nee= ds, and also from view point of an implementer it is worth to be mentioned. > So I'm happy with including it. With that, and especially considering Daniel's input, I have to update my previous feedback: I strongly encourage the draft authors to add this to the draft. -- T=C3=B6ma From nobody Fri Jul 26 00:16:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E85551202BD for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 00:16:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GDvwJMVkq7Ak for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 00:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA6BF120281 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 00:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar01.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.2]) by opfedar20.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45w0jy66Bmz8sqm; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 09:16:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.104]) by opfedar01.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45w0jy54pBzBrLv; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 09:16:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM5F.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 09:16:06 +0200 From: To: Valery Smyslov , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] draft-ietf-dots-call-home: Clarify DOTS Agent Roles Thread-Index: AdVC85i4bFch/Zy8RxyBqvTQ1hxRMP///H2A//7iU5A= Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 07:16:06 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E9380@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E88FA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <01db01d54302$9bef3b40$d3cdb1c0$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <01db01d54302$9bef3b40$d3cdb1c0$@gmail.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E9380OPEXCAUBMA2corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] draft-ietf-dots-call-home: Clarify DOTS Agent Roles X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 07:16:11 -0000 --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E9380OPEXCAUBMA2corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Valery, We didn't consider the use of new terms because we thought this may be inte= rpreted as if we are defining new DOTS roles (which we don't). The text uses "in the call home scenario" to make that distinction in some = places, but I understand this may not be sufficient. I'm OK to go with "Call Home DOTS *". I updated the terminology section wit= h the following: DOTS agents involved in the DOTS Call Home adhere to the DOTS roles as defined in [RFC8612]. For clarity, this document uses "Call Home DOTS client" (or "Call Home DOTS server") to refer to a DOTS client (or DOTS server) deployed in a Call Home scenario. and changed the text when it makes sense. The full diff is available at: https://github.com/boucadair/dots-call-home/blob/master/wdiff%20draft-ietf-= dots-signal-call-home-04.txt%20draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-05.pdf candidate -05: https://github.com/boucadair/dots-call-home/blob/master/draf= t-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-05.txt Please let us know if this is better. Thank you. Cheers, Med De : Valery Smyslov [mailto:smyslov.ietf@gmail.com] Envoy=E9 : jeudi 25 juillet 2019 18:04 =C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; dots@ietf.org Objet : RE: [Dots] draft-ietf-dots-call-home: Clarify DOTS Agent Roles Hi Med, thank you for adding this section, it really helps. However, I was asking for more - did you consider changing the terminology in such a way, that Call Home use case is not mixed with basic DOTS use case? For example, calling entities not just DOTS Client and DOTS Server, but say Call Home DOTS Client and Call Home DOTS Server? (actually I don't like these ad hoc names, probably you can invent better t= erm). Regards, Valery. From: Dots On Behalf Of mohamed.boucadair@orange.co= m Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 5:17 PM To: dots@ietf.org Subject: [Dots] draft-ietf-dots-call-home: Clarify DOTS Agent Roles Re-, There was a comment raised during the meeting asking to further clarify the= role of the various DOTS agent in the call home. We added an new section t= o address this comment: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-= call-home-04#section-1.4 Cheers, Med --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E9380OPEXCAUBMA2corp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Valery,

 

We didn’t consider th=
e use of new terms because we thought this may be interpreted as if we are =
defining new DOTS roles (which we don’t). 
 

The text uses “in the call home scenario” to make that distinction in some places, but =
I understand this may not be sufficient. 


 

I’m OK to go with =
220;Call Home DOTS *”. I updated the terminology section with the fol=
lowing: 


 

   DOTS agents involved in the DOTS Cal=
l Home adhere to the DOTS roles


   as defined in [RFC8612].  For c=
larity, this document uses "Call Home


   DOTS client" (or "Call Hom=
e DOTS server") to refer to a DOTS client


   (or DOTS server) deployed in a Call =
Home scenario.


 

and changed the text when i=
t makes sense. The full diff is available at: 


 

https://github.com/=
boucadair/dots-call-home/blob/master/wdiff%20draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-ho=
me-04.txt%20draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-05.pdf <=
/pre>

 

candidate -05: https://github.com/boucadair/dots-call-home/blob/maste=
r/draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-05.txt 


 

Please let us know if this =
is better.


 

Thank you.


 

Cheers,

Med


 








De : Valery Smyslov [mailto:smyslov.=
ietf@gmail.com]


Envoy=E9 : jeudi 25 juillet 2019 18:04

=C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; dots@ietf.org

Objet : RE: [Dots] draft-ietf-dots-call-home: Clarify DOTS Agen=
t Roles






 


Hi M=
ed,


 


than=
k you for adding this section, it really helps.



Howe=
ver, I was asking for more - did you consider


chan=
ging the terminology in such a way, that



Call=
 Home use case is not mixed with basic DOTS use case?


 


For =
example, calling entities not just DOTS Client and DOTS

Serv=
er, but say Call Home DOTS Client and Call Home DOTS Server?


(act=
ually I don't like these ad hoc names, probably you can invent better term)=
.


 


Rega=
rds,


Vale=
ry.


 


 








From: Dots <dots-bounces@ietf.org>
On Behalf Of mohamed.boucadair@orange.com

Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 5:17 PM

To: dots@ietf.org

Subject: [Dots] draft-ietf-dots-call-home: Clarify DOTS Agent Roles<=
o:p>






 


Re-,


 


There was a comment raised during the meeti=
ng asking to further clarify the role of the various DOTS agent in the call=
 home. We added an new section to address this comment:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-d=
ots-signal-call-home-04#section-1.4



 


Cheers,


Med
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boundary="_000_DM5PR16MB17050CF9AF89A83E5425C4A5EAC00DM5PR16MB1705namp_" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] draft-ietf-dots-call-home: Clarify DOTS Agent Roles X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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XzAyMjBAZG9jb21vLm5lLmpwDQo+IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0N Cg== From nobody Fri Jul 26 01:54:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A39CE1202E9 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 01:54:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZNktYAYMJABz for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 01:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 322211202E8 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 01:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar02.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.4]) by opfedar24.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45w2vW3cjRz5wJl; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 10:54:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.51]) by opfedar02.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45w2vW2fLCzCqkS; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 10:54:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM22.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 10:54:31 +0200 From: To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "Valery Smyslov" , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] draft-ietf-dots-call-home: Clarify DOTS Agent Roles Thread-Index: AdVC85i4bFch/Zy8RxyBqvTQ1hxRMAADwJ6AAB/YkwAAAtugEAAASZ3g Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 08:54:31 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E9427@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E88FA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <01db01d54302$9bef3b40$d3cdb1c0$@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E9380@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E9427OPEXCAUBMA2corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] draft-ietf-dots-call-home: Clarify DOTS Agent Roles X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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aXY+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E9427OPEXCAUBMA2corp_-- From nobody Fri Jul 26 03:23:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87BF91202E2; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 03:23:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3n5kl4OL7jVm; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 03:23:53 -0700 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<20c22342-006f-12af-2244-e84a30fd72f5@nttv6.jp> In-Reply-To: From: H Y Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 06:28:33 -0400 Message-ID: To: "draft-ietf-dots-use-cases@ietf.org" Cc: dots Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] About modification of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-18 X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 10:23:55 -0000 Hi dots-use-cases draft authors, Thank you very much :-) Yuhei 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8825=E6=97=A5(=E6=9C=A8) 17:59 T=C3=B6ma Gavrichenkov = : > > Peace, > > On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 12:51 AM kaname nishizuka wrote= : > > Yes, I do believe. > > I heard from Yuhei that this additional section stems from operator's n= eeds, and also from view point of an implementer it is worth to be mentione= d. > > So I'm happy with including it. > > With that, and especially considering Daniel's input, I have to update > my previous feedback: I strongly encourage the draft authors to add > this to the draft. > > -- > T=C3=B6ma --=20 ---------------------------------- Yuuhei HAYASHI 08065300884 yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp ---------------------------------- From nobody Fri Jul 26 04:15:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FB141202FB for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 04:15:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, INVALID_MSGID=0.568, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6rJZGWvryPOt for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 04:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A21E712024F for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 04:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 3F2374646ABDC38235A2; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 12:15:49 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.74) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 12:15:48 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.207]) by NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 19:12:10 +0800 From: "Panwei (William)" To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , Valery Smyslov , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] draft-ietf-dots-call-home: Clarify DOTS Agent Roles Thread-Index: AdVC85i4bFch/Zy8RxyBqvTQ1hxRMP//l+iAgAD+xQCAABi9gIAAAsKAgACskTQ= Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 11:12:09 +0000 Message-ID: 2426C851-FB5E-4031-B64B-1C8166491C2A References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E88FA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <01db01d54302$9bef3b40$d3cdb1c0$@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E9380@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> , <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E9427@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E9427@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_004_2426C851FB5E4031B64B1C8166491C2A_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] draft-ietf-dots-call-home: Clarify DOTS Agent Roles X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 11:15:55 -0000 --_004_2426C851FB5E4031B64B1C8166491C2A_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2426C851FB5E4031B64B1C8166491C2A_" --_000_2426C851FB5E4031B64B1C8166491C2A_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksDQoNCkkgYWdyZWUgd2l0aCBNZWQuIFRoaXMgbWF5YmUgY29uZnVzZWQgZm9yIHBlb3BsZSB3 aG8gYXJlIG5vdCBmYW1pbGlhciB3aXRoIHRoaXMgc3BlYy4NClRoZSBjb25mdXNpbmcgcGFydCBj YW4gYmUgYXQgdGhlIHNpdHVhdGlvbiB3aGVyZSBiYXNlIHNpZ2FubCBjaGFubmVsIGFuZCBjYWxs IGhvbWUgY2hhbm5lbCBhcmUgdXNlZCBhdCB0aGUgc2FtZSB0aW1lLiBJbiB0aGlzIGNhc2UgdGhl cmUgYXJlIHR3byBraW5kcyBvZiBET1RTIGNsaWVudC9zZXJ2ZXIsIHdlIG11c3QgZW1waGFzaXpl IERPVFMgY2xpZW50IHVzZWQgaW4gYmFzZSBzaWduYWwgY2hhbm5lbCBhbmQgRE9UUyBjbGllbnQg dXNlZCBpbiBjYWxsIGhvbWUgc2lnbmFsIGNoYW5uZWwgdG8gc2VwYXJhdGUgdGhlbS4gSSB0aGlu ayB0aGUgbmV3IHRlcm1zIHdpbGwgbWFrZSB0aGlzIGRpZmZlcmVuY2UgYmV0dGVyIGZvciBib3Ro 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dj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_2426C851FB5E4031B64B1C8166491C2A_-- --_004_2426C851FB5E4031B64B1C8166491C2A_ Content-Type: text/plain; name="ATT00001.txt" Content-Description: ATT00001.txt Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ATT00001.txt"; size=127; creation-date="Fri, 26 Jul 2019 08:54:48 GMT"; modification-date="Fri, 26 Jul 2019 08:54:48 GMT" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCkRvdHMgbWFp bGluZyBsaXN0DQpEb3RzQGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xp c3RpbmZvL2RvdHMNCg== --_004_2426C851FB5E4031B64B1C8166491C2A_-- From nobody Fri Jul 26 04:33:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DD9F1202E5 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 04:33:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: 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ESMTP id 45w6Ql6dpHzDq93; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 13:33:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM7E.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 13:33:20 +0200 From: To: "Panwei (William)" , "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , Valery Smyslov , "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dots] draft-ietf-dots-call-home: Clarify DOTS Agent Roles Thread-Index: AdVC85i4bFch/Zy8RxyBqvTQ1hxRMP//l+iAgAD+xQCAABi9gIAAAsKAgACskTT///rvIA== Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 11:33:19 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E9518@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E88FA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <01db01d54302$9bef3b40$d3cdb1c0$@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E9380@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> , <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312E9427@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> 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dots@ietf.org Message-ID: <156415498249.7689.7017897745781942085@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 08:29:42 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-19.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 15:29:43 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IETF. Title : Use cases for DDoS Open Threat Signaling Authors : Roland Dobbins Daniel Migault Stefan Fouant Robert Moskowitz Nik Teague Liang Xia Kaname Nishizuka Filename : draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-19.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2019-07-26 Abstract: The DDoS Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) effort is intended to provide protocols to facilitate interoperability across disparate DDoS mitigation solutions. This document presents sample use cases which describe the interactions expected between the DOTS components as well as DOTS messaging exchanges. These use cases are meant to identify the interacting DOTS components, how they collaborate, and what are the typical information to be exchanged. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-19 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-19 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-19 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Jul 26 08:31:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0995612011F for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 08:31:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UruTC7wbJTJO for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 08:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM03-BY2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2nam03on061c.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe4a::61c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24C5E1200FF for ; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:DM6PR15MB2681; H:DM6PR15MB3531.namprd15.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: ericsson.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: JEgkSdUkv/ujWIYfB6enm7v08jZh9Aygd9S5rBd1WWBP3serNgN0/zqqEMqaaeRQE98hxVkym0nOklDha4cYQtCkDoxkH0/Tk+7+ORKrY8X4AGKWCbfwA8OkJst2lwqmR6SntfyEADN3jH1IT30UYtgNxODV3PTuEgzkIQMViV49Xceb8KJCJ2lodFp0pHcGF1fnVry+aHxGtD+izmxws2uidxy6VBi9xdUbCqSaBOlAim0LOGp6viKPtsYl+dyVglwdvB+ecEBWnpRsN8aynzZBabIiiJR31DBOC3TnLSS9KezAkhUr3Km8nRRpdl1gJydpXpRyZ7WC9Ui0+MVPFmNFhRK3APGh9+C7rOW8JzBnIdfJ3S4MzmHToUgZ7mHf5+HvLVxfuGCnYUlJceNq04C9RvCxfjdbtXRAHhfNlkU= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 0d3e0a25-ef77-4e87-4cbb-08d711de52bd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Jul 2019 15:31:26.3155 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: daniel.migault@ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR15MB2681 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-19.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 12:38:48 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IETF. Title : Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy Mohamed Boucadair Prashanth Patil Andrew Mortensen Nik Teague Filename : draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-37.txt Pages : 106 Date : 2019-07-29 Abstract: This document specifies the DOTS signal channel, a protocol for signaling the need for protection against Distributed Denial-of- Service (DDoS) attacks to a server capable of enabling network traffic mitigation on behalf of the requesting client. A companion document defines the DOTS data channel, a separate reliable communication layer for DOTS management and configuration purposes. Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor) Please update these statements within the document with the RFC number to be assigned to this document: o "This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX;" o "RFC XXXX: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification"; o "| [RFCXXXX] |" o reference: RFC XXXX Please update this statement with the RFC number to be assigned to the following documents: o "RFC YYYY: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Data Channel Specification (used to be I-D.ietf-dots-data- channel) Please update TBD/TBD1/TBD2 statements with the assignments made by IANA to DOTS Signal Channel Protocol. Also, please update the "revision" date of the YANG modules. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-37 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-37 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-37 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 29 05:42:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 181CE120142 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 05:42:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3ObiORoHVZL9 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 05:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DAD7C1200F8 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 05:42:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar04.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.6]) by opfedar24.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45xzqF4K6hz5vZZ for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 14:42:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.76]) by opfedar04.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45xzqF3S7Kz1xpT for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 14:42:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM7E.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 14:42:33 +0200 From: To: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-37.txt Thread-Index: AQHVRgqcp9SkE6OVNE6eyEW5Gbi3OKbhiaEQ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 12:42:32 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312EA594@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <156440392751.1042.16566035612229187205@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <156440392751.1042.16566035612229187205@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-37.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 12:42:37 -0000 Hi all,=20 Updated a sentence in Section 4.7 (Heartbeat Mechanism) for better clarity. Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de > internet-drafts@ietf.org > Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 29 juillet 2019 14:39 > =C0=A0: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc=A0: dots@ietf.org > Objet=A0: I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-37.txt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the > IETF. >=20 > Title : Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat > Signaling (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification > Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy > Mohamed Boucadair > Prashanth Patil > Andrew Mortensen > Nik Teague > Filename : draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-37.txt > Pages : 106 > Date : 2019-07-29 >=20 > Abstract: > This document specifies the DOTS signal channel, a protocol for > signaling the need for protection against Distributed Denial-of- > Service (DDoS) attacks to a server capable of enabling network > traffic mitigation on behalf of the requesting client. >=20 > A companion document defines the DOTS data channel, a separate > reliable communication layer for DOTS management and configuration > purposes. >=20 > Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor) >=20 > Please update these statements within the document with the RFC > number to be assigned to this document: >=20 > o "This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX;" >=20 > o "RFC XXXX: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling > (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification"; >=20 > o "| [RFCXXXX] |" >=20 > o reference: RFC XXXX >=20 > Please update this statement with the RFC number to be assigned to > the following documents: >=20 > o "RFC YYYY: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling > (DOTS) Data Channel Specification (used to be I-D.ietf-dots-data- > channel) >=20 > Please update TBD/TBD1/TBD2 statements with the assignments made by > IANA to DOTS Signal Channel Protocol. >=20 > Also, please update the "revision" date of the YANG modules. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel/ >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-37 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-37 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-37 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From nobody Tue Jul 30 05:41:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietf.org Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE5F1120179; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 05:41:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: dots@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.99.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dots@ietf.org Message-ID: <156449050283.2652.12472111684167451333@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 05:41:42 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-05.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 12:41:43 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IETF. Title : Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Signal Channel Call Home Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy Mohamed Boucadair Jon Shallow Filename : draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-05.txt Pages : 33 Date : 2019-07-30 Abstract: This document specifies the DOTS signal channel Call Home, which enables a DOTS server to initiate a secure connection to a DOTS client, and to receive the attack traffic information from the DOTS client. The DOTS server in turn uses the attack traffic information to identify the compromised devices launching the outgoing DDoS attack and takes appropriate mitigation action(s). The DOTS signal channel Call Home is not specific to the home networks; the solution targets any deployment which requires to block DDoS attack traffic closer to the source(s) of a DDoS attack. Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor) Please update these statements within the document with the RFC number to be assigned to this document: o "This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX;" o "RFC XXXX: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Signal Channel Call Home"; o "| [RFCXXXX] |" o reference: RFC XXXX Please update this statement with the RFC number to be assigned to the following documents: o "RFC YYYY: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification (used to be I-D.ietf-dots- signal-channel) Please update TBD statements with the assignment made by IANA to DOTS Signal Channel Call Home. Also, please update the "revision" date of the YANG module. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-05 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Jul 30 05:51:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C205B1200F1 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 05:51:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7s7NzrOCkPzh for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 05:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20C6312000E for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 05:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr02.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.66]) by opfednr20.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45ybyY1brbz1yQF for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 14:51:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.82]) by opfednr02.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45ybyY0wH0z8sY5 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 14:51:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM5E.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 14:51:00 +0200 From: To: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-05.txt Thread-Index: AQHVRtQw1hQyCwfEAEqp+2DIpVLMP6bjGymQ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 12:51:00 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312EB0CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <156449050283.2652.12472111684167451333@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <156449050283.2652.12472111684167451333@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-05.txt X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 12:51:05 -0000 Hi All,=20 The changes are editorial to address the comment from Valery so that the "C= all Home use case is not mixed with basic DOTS use case". I do think that this version can be used to issue a WGLC.=20 Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de > internet-drafts@ietf.org > Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 30 juillet 2019 14:42 > =C0=A0: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc=A0: dots@ietf.org > Objet=A0: I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-05.txt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the > IETF. >=20 > Title : Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat > Signaling (DOTS) Signal Channel Call Home > Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy > Mohamed Boucadair > Jon Shallow > Filename : draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-05.txt > Pages : 33 > Date : 2019-07-30 >=20 > Abstract: > This document specifies the DOTS signal channel Call Home, which > enables a DOTS server to initiate a secure connection to a DOTS > client, and to receive the attack traffic information from the DOTS > client. The DOTS server in turn uses the attack traffic information > to identify the compromised devices launching the outgoing DDoS > attack and takes appropriate mitigation action(s). >=20 > The DOTS signal channel Call Home is not specific to the home > networks; the solution targets any deployment which requires to block > DDoS attack traffic closer to the source(s) of a DDoS attack. >=20 > Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor) >=20 > Please update these statements within the document with the RFC > number to be assigned to this document: >=20 > o "This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX;" >=20 > o "RFC XXXX: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling > (DOTS) Signal Channel Call Home"; >=20 > o "| [RFCXXXX] |" >=20 > o reference: RFC XXXX >=20 > Please update this statement with the RFC number to be assigned to > the following documents: >=20 > o "RFC YYYY: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling > (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification (used to be I-D.ietf-dots- > signal-channel) >=20 > Please update TBD statements with the assignment made by IANA to DOTS > Signal Channel Call Home. >=20 > Also, please update the "revision" date of the YANG module. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home/ >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-05 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-05 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-dots-signal-call-home-05 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From nobody Wed Jul 31 01:14:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6CBD12007A for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 01:14:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K3zam6byryVw for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 01:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE37112004A for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 01:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr06.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.70]) by opfednr27.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45z5mk0K1Jz4wKD; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 10:14:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.48]) by opfednr06.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 45z5mj6Rc5zDq75; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 10:14:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM32.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 10:14:13 +0200 From: To: "Valery Smyslov (valery@smyslov.net)" CC: "dots@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-dots-discovery: Valery's Comment in Montreal Thread-Index: AdVHd+/qBP9FDa59QJaUSl01dbIpug== Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 08:14:13 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312EB910@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312EB910OPEXCAUBMA2corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] draft-ietf-dots-discovery: Valery's Comment in Montreal X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 08:14:18 -0000 --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312EB910OPEXCAUBMA2corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Valery, You said during the meeting that you are not "happy" with the language used= in section 4 (if I'm not mistaken). Are you referring to this text: All DOTS clients MUST support at least one of the three mechanisms below to determine a DOTS server list. All DOTS clients SHOULD implement all three, or as many as are practical for any specific device, of these ways to discover DOTS servers, in order to facilitate the deployment of DOTS in large scale environments: Can you please clarify your concern? Thank you. Cheers, Med --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312EB910OPEXCAUBMA2corp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Valery,

 

You said during the meeting that you are no= t “happy” with the language used in section 4 (if I’m not= mistaken). Are you referring to this text:

 

   All DO= TS clients MUST support at least one of the three mechanisms

   below = to determine a DOTS server list.  All DOTS clients SHOULD

   implem= ent all three, or as many as are practical for any specific

   device= , of these ways to discover DOTS servers, in order to

   facili= tate the deployment of DOTS in large scale environments:<= /p>

 

Can you please clarify your concern?

 

Thank you.

 

Cheers,

Med

--_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330312EB910OPEXCAUBMA2corp_-- From nobody Wed Jul 31 18:39:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dots@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7C0E120131 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 18:39:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RDDQgw9RGQRX for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 18:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B609C1200B9 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 18:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML710-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id AC9D8C9C807FF908EBE1 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2019 02:39:14 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEMM402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.210) by LHREML710-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Thu, 1 Aug 2019 02:39:13 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM511-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.240]) by DGGEMM402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.210]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 1 Aug 2019 09:39:06 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" To: "dots@ietf.org" CC: Valery Smyslov , "Panwei (William)" Thread-Topic: IETF 105th DOTS session minutes uploaded: Thread-Index: AdVICY2U9uFpg9a5Txe63joRK+bxEA== Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 01:39:06 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.159.76] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E820DF6dggemm511mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Dots] IETF 105th DOTS session minutes uploaded: X-BeenThere: dots@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of DDoS Open Threat Signaling \(DOTS\) technology and directions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2019 01:39:19 -0000 --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E820DF6dggemm511mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, The meeting minutes are uploaded now: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-105-dots/ or etherpad: https://etherpad.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-105-dots?useMonospaceFont=3Dtrue Many thanks for Wei's big help! B.R. Frank --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E820DF6dggemm511mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

The meeting minutes are uploade= d now:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-10= 5-dots/

 

or etherpad:<= /p>

https://etherpad.ietf.= org/p/notes-ietf-105-dots?useMonospaceFont=3Dtrue

 

Many thanks for Wei’s big= help!

 

B.R.

Frank

 

 

 

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